-
8/2/2019 TICOM I-21
1/5
I~TICOM!I-21
\~~ITNARY INTERR.OGATION OF
?df.J?r. FRICKE (OKwjCHI) AND (}Bv. ; : . . !_~G1nJI3ERT
(oKH/cHIl15th JUNE 194-5.
Attached is the report of' a preli!llinary interrogation of
threemembers of OKW/CHI and O - ; J U f i j from 01m/CJrlI, narried
out in theGreat Hall of Schloss Glu8cksburg, near Flel'_.sburg, on
the 1.5i;hof J:me 191;5.Reports en the subsequent detailed.
interrogations of HUET'l'ENHAIN,FitICKEana SCI iUBER' I are be ing
issued separately inbhis series.
TICOM1st-July 1 9 L ~ - 5 No. of Pages 4 -
Dis t:c::b1.ltion:-,--~~-~. u . s .' O P = 2 0 - G (2) (-:j.a
Lt. Pender::;re.ss)G-2 (via Lt.Oo1. Hilles)S . S o A . (2) (Via
Major Seaman)Direotor, S. I.D. ETOUSA (viE'..-IJt. Ool.Johnson)
D . D . 3 .:0 1 D~~.~D'D"!N'S'~\D.D. M.W.D . D . A , S .l . n .
n , C D R . ) ( 2 )L-G,Un:. 0 Leanheni
TreG' {. .:,. . . . . " " "~Chai!'l1llmS.A.C. (~C d r .
13aconCal', Mackenziec.dr. TandyLt. Col. ~Toh':l50QLt.CCir,
l't&J.1soni Y I a j o r S e a m a nLieut. Eachus!..~f;U.f-:"
1f3LiJ.0f; /Captain CowanLieut. FehlTICOlvIFiles (3)
AdditionalIT.c-:-(2 extra)forLt.Odr. D a v e n p o r tand S e c
t i o n VMajor Morc-gan.Dr, Piokering
I
Ii\
-
8/2/2019 TICOM I-21
2/5
< ,
I iI
T O P S EC RE T
Obe.rst KETTLER )Reg, Rat. H UETTEN HA IN )SonderfUehrer FRICKE
)Oberleut. SCHUBERT
InterrogRtion of:
Present:
Q:
Kettler:
Kettler:
Huettenhain:
Kettler:
Q:Kettler:
Q:K",ttler:
Huettenhain:
OKW/ChiOKH/Ghi
Cdr. Dudley-Smith, R.N.'Major Morgan, 1.0.lJajor Seam:"l.n,U. S.
A'mJ...vLt.OCL~. Davenport, R.N.V.R.Lt Ca.: : - . ~lo:;_ster, R .N
. V.R.Ga1){;ainRGyff'e, I.e.Li~ut;. Kirby, U,S. ArrayLieut. Morley,
R.N. V.R. /
What a.':Tar.gements were there for pooling resources of
yout:orgWlisation with the Forsehungearn:t?"\1e
FGi!:sehungsanr~monito;J:"edPress traf'fic-. It carried
outcryptographic work blat I do not knew what itwas, We triedto
work together but the Forochungsamt refUsed f'or- reasonsunknown to
me, \I knew tl1at aden was concerned \1lith the security of
Germanc:typtographi'c mach.i.nea. He had been with Siemans. I
knewof Pa8~zelt b..:.tI never- d'i.scuseed any cI"JPtogrr.-,_)hic
problemswithhim.Weworked with the Au.swaertiges .fu".lltnd this
W"dS satisfactory.There was no passing of material frO!:J.the
Serv~,ces to OKW!Chi.Alt.'lOllgh it was suggested that the A : 1 '
. 'r r W should gi'Te unworkabl,eproblems to O K W , not..iJ.ing
came of this.S0mepersonnel transferred to the ForsGhungsamt from
OKW!Chi.This was not well received in the latter organiGation as
theywere r-egarded as people who had "deser-ted the sl:i:p".Until
the 1st of November 1944, thB_Army had done its ow
nc:m.ro.erdevelopnent but from that date everJi;h::1.::gwas left
,toOKW/Ohi. ,.. '.
OK'N/C':..iwas resirioied
~.:;oll!Yl':~eigndiploIn.:.".';;i':l(;C'ai'l'i(; including~r~!~c
from Attach~s. Foreign Ar~ traffic was dealt'with: < i t,'!:' _
' L t l , \ Y o W ' l 'l v-'e~'8, ::l~_i.6;j'~lyconcerned ':1.'j..
'l;);,~'ievE'lopnentof c'y'?hers for Gel'Illa!! c0l1lIilercial
firD8, but no oryptographicwork was done on foreign couLercial
sysberaa.With whic~ foreign oaxntries did you have liaison?~t~YJ
Finland, .Hungary and Japan. No practical crypto a:Pb.ioWO_1I:
~a:,done ,WJ.th the Japanese, a little was done with ftalyand
l~a~son w~th Finland and Hung~ was fairly close.We e~anged the
identification of book groups wi th theItdJb.n'L.
-
8/2/2019 TICOM I-21
3/5
] 1 \li-- I I
,'
Q:J;ettler:
Q:
ltettlar:
Q:~lel':
Q:rottler;
Q:
- 2 ..:
~ and deoypheJ.'9d .oeseages vrere ~~w1.tb .,FinnS$ Doth ~ the
miU:tnry aJlIl ~t1.o f1.elllfl..There 1r8.S a. F1nnish
LiaisCClOffiQer - ~e~ lr1~_witil. "'ho Der.naIl
A"rmY'scryptognJ.phic ~sa'fen.r{llere wao ~o a. ~ LiIa..iaon
Oftioel' in P1rll.e.rd au~the le.at s;1.x~onths- of ~'s
pa.rtio1:Patiotl la. th$tvdn EuropetV\ WAr .When clicl ),f1ekko.11l
O~ 1;0 Ge~fie arrived at O KH a.t the- em or 1942.What material did
. v a . ! obta.!n t.rom the P'1nna '?AIlterican, Rusaian and
$vedish. The .AJner ican a.:tploraaUamaterial. was of ~iculAr
1.JItportance.T'ha mUitar,v oo-o,pemtton 'betweef.om and the Finna
waBoloas$ ~ia11;9' U the iJatter of N K ' I J D mater.:-:i,.al,
l!\d.::rf~,l th~re was grQ.:l'!; 7 . 1 ' 1 ' 1 , ; e 'l "t !b ' "
Give u.s detaU$ ct y,oor li!d$O!'l with H\Jr@n%l'-This liaUOU wasat
lang at~ aM started ~ the~1y '20s soon ttl'ter tl1a last war.'!he
D-~emtmt to:c liaison. was peculiar. ~e ~arie%lS~ent ~terl.al for
solution by C J l i . W . T P . e methoo ' " of-solution of
Italian, ~ and. Polish. traft'1u leresant back to RUDg~, sinoa
thea~ were the. onlY aountriaa.of interest to ~Ccnyol sive as the
namas ot personalittee,
inheBlitgBri.nn0rsanisation?C-eneralvon.~t~!iC.s\1as head. of the
orgtmisntian .."Mere was Also a. Colbn'il H a r O D . Y ' .
. - - . ~ "Wha t ~ene4 to the Hungar i .a .J l
o;-ganisatlon?~eot material 8toppe4 at the 'bes~ ot thiayear .
1en1::a }.iwon Offioer to the Ge rman b'antierat St~rMMns:er. but
he returned badllg CQly exchtlngedowrtee1es with the Hlmgariana.
Notbil:lg turther was heud.Where 1fIlS the ~at1Ol'). hataed?In the
R o l l ' T E l d . (w.mstr)' ot Det'enoe). 1be orgenisatlon
was1mme:diatel.y subClX'd1Da.teo the CUet ot General StaN'.l>id
yOll UOhangll t14iaon Otficers?}ro, bu.t Vleatlaal _. _at at the
eb.tzy ot !ltmgar,y .into thewar. .He wna there tor a few eka
CIDl,y . Di.materrialwas excbaZ'lged through the Hungarian JW')UI)"
aD d th~ "81'0no visits fran Hunga.r1anatt'1cem. Petrilc:o'noa
vidtedOD/Chi- before rq 0.pp01n1illlst to the ~a.t1DA but it;WIlS
a. visit ot aoo4wUl CIIlly. ani I.a1m1lai! l . taa4e two800dwill
via1ta to ~. ihe HUIlgar1ana baa olcseliaison 1W1th the P1.nna aDd
1t WBB con&idem at the t1aethat When~. came to lterl1B he "as
CD Ida -., to -IIE:lainki. -.1>14 the JapanesGl han & .
L1a1scn Of'f:icer at Bu4apest1O t i J , . T the J'~a.e lWitar.!
Atteah6 OOlOMl (~ Gtr.leral)~~~. Be w a a h G 3 0 d or the J G Q 1
A f t . . . 1Id.U",.~-gJ'e.p,do C1!'g~tien auG. at the -_ .._-- ot
..;.""'.... .._ ...._ ...... was on a .
-
8/2/2019 TICOM I-21
4/5
)
Q:
Kettler;
Q:
Kettler:
Q:K3-';tler:
/ Q:Kettler:
Q:
Q:Kettler:
Huettenhain:
Kettler:
Q:Huettenhain:
Q:Huettenhain:
Q:
- 3 -
visit to Gerrrumy; he could. not get bMk to J~P!U\.1 endafter
traveJ_Jj-ngabout a good de,_che at Bud~pest. HBYashiand
1:-'et).':1.~kovics knewone another.Whatwas Ho:l.yashidoing in
Berlin at the beginning of thewa:'?He was attached to the staff of
the Japanese MilitaryAttache in Berlin, but 1do not knowwhat the
).'easonSfor his visit were.Give us detn.ils of the liaison with
the Japanese inBerlin.I knew the Japanese office;rs well and
freq).l.ently dinedw:Uh theo. Wegave the Japanese certain
cryptographiOCi.ata,but very little. Wegot no-t;hiEgin
exchange.v''hat did yon give them?principally American data through
Min.Rat. Fenne!'directly to Nishi and-Sakllt'r..i.Did yOUigive them
any intelligence from deccd.es?No, and receiveGl.Lone. So far as I
remember h'af'::'iowas sometimes handed ovez',Whendid
l:iw,is'onbegi.").?Liaison began wit ! 1 . the ar::-ival of Hayashi
and took a longtime to develop. Webegan a li t.-Ue exchange of
::..r:I'or-mation in ~941. Wedid not'tell the Japanese that
weeonsd.dez-edtneir s%tems cad. -Cd.veus details about your liaison
with ItalyoI do not knQW any details of liaison with the
Italianssince it had stopped when I was appointed at the end
of1943.I think' it began during the Abyssinian war with a
GeneralGnmba.: r . had +o intervene when a newbureau opened after
the )collapse of Italy under the Neo-Fascist regime. Werefused to
allow liaison and disbnnded the Italial1organisation, since we elid
not knowwhat they would dowith it.Whatwork did you do on I't;alian
cyphers?Weworked on theo with suocess. Wetold the r'hlians,but they
at first refused to believe it. To prove itto them, we. finally
sent a cryptographer to Rone and hewas locked In a roomuntil he had
done so!Whentas th:l.8, mID what t'y"peof oypher was concerned?I do
not remember the exact date, but it was about 1 9 3 9 .The system
used was a pl"ioitlve subtractor in great depth.Wh~t ; : ; o ; ' ,
k d':La: y'~Ui ' 0 ''''"' -' b ", . e , " -on tne reaking Of enemy
ag";;'!1i;' s'cyphe'!:"~?
-
8/2/2019 TICOM I-21
5/5
'' ''! - :
1
. .Kettler~
Q:
Huettenhain:
Q:
Q:
