v. 8 bafo/oak part 1 - Psicoterapia Integrativa Mrs.Oak1... · Web viewIf in page set up and printing you select all options as word it should print as one. Edited by Barbara T. Brodley

Transcripts of Carl Rogers' Therapy Sessions

Edited by Barbara T. Brodley and Germain Lietaer

Volume 8

The Case of Mrs. Oak/BAFO (original research name BAFO) [47 sessions circa 1950-51]

Introduction (History & Preliminary Memo by Counselor)

Sessions 1-26

These transcripts are available for purposes of research, study and teaching. They may not be sold.

Throughout these interviews the response of the therapist (T) (Rogers), and the client (C) are numbered for easy reference.

Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume 8, OAK/BAFO, Contents, page 1

THE CASE OF MRS. OAK/BAFO

History

Pre-therapy Tests(These tests were taken within a two-day period)Role-TakingThematic Apperception

Preliminary Memo by Counselor1st Interview (Six days after pre-tests) 2nd Interview (Two days later) 3rd Interview (Five days later) 4th Interview (Two days later) 5th Interview (Three days later) 6th Interview (Two days later) 7th Interview (Five days later) 8th Interview (Two days later) 9th Interview (Five days later) 10th Interview (Two days later) 11th Interview (Three days later) 12th Interview (Seven days later) 13th Interview (Two days later) 14th Interview (Five days later) 15th Interview (Two days later) 16th Interview (Five days later) 17th Interview (Seven days later) 18th Interview (Two days later) 19th Interview (Nine days later) 20th Interview (Three days later) 21th Interview (Seven days later) 22nd Interview (Two days later) 23rd Interview (Five days later) 24th Interview (Two days later) 25th Interview (Seven days later) 26th Interview (Five days later) 27th interview (Two days later) 28th Interview (Five days later) 29th Interview (Two days later) 30th Interview (Seven days later) 31st Interview (Five days later) 32nd Interview (Four days later) 33rd Interview (Three days later) 34th interview (Two days later)

Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume 8, OAK/BAFO, Introduction, page 2

35th Interview (Five days later) 36th Interview (Two days later) 37th Interview (Seven days later) 38th Interview (Two days later) 39th Interview (Three days later) Letter from Mrs. Bafo (One day later) 40th Interview (Nine days later)

Post-therapy Tests(These tests were taken within a two-day period, the same day and the day following the 40th interview, six months after the pre-therapy tests).Role-takingThematic Apperception

Conversation with Psychometrist (One day later)

First Self-recorded Session (Eight days later) [No transcript available] Second Self-recorded Session (Seven days later) [No transcript available]

Follow-up Interview with test administrator(Seven months after 40th interview)

Follow-up TestsThese tests were taken on the same day, five days after the Follow-up Interview and seven months after the Post-tests.)Role-Taking Thematic Apperception

41st Interview (Seven months after 40th interview, five days after Follow-up interview) 42nd Interview (One week later) 43rd Interview (Two weeks later44th Interview (One week later) 45th Interview (One week later) 46th Interview (One week later 47th Interview (One week later)

After session 47: Interview 48 & test results48th Interview (One week later) [At the client’s request the 48th and final session was not recorded.]


Second Follow-up Tests(Three months after the 48th interview andfive months after the first Follow-up tests).(The Role-Taking test was not given.)Thematic Apperception

Time between pre-therapy and post-therapy tests ...........................................168 daysTime in therapy ..............................................................................................162 daysTime between post-therapy and follow-up tests ..............................................216 daysTime in therapy after first follow-up tests..........................................................56 daysTime between first and second follow-up tests................................................150 days

[Sessions 1-26 follow here in Volume 8. Sessions 27-47 are in Volume 9]



Preliminary memo by Counselor

Mr. Oak during the past year had been a client of the present counselor C. Brown. He completed counseling some months ago and at the time that he completed he expressed a desire for his daughter to come in for counseling. He reported that she was having some convulsive seizures that have been tentatively diagnosed as epileptic; that she was under good medical care for that aspect of it. But that he and his wife felt certain there were psychological factors in the situation. And that in talking with her about the whole problem she had expressed first a willingness and then later a desire to have counseling help. He was told that the present counselor would be able to see her sometime during December. I believe this was sometime during October that he was given this information. Then late in November he phoned that his daughter had had a serious upset. She had taken an overdose of benedril pills in what appeared to be a mild suicidal attempt, and the family doctor had strongly urged them to place her at once in B_____psychiatric ward, which they had done. He was quite concerned as to whether or not he had taken the right step. On December 3 he and his wife came in for a short interview to talk over the whole problem. They said that their daughter, Peggy, had commenced therapy with one of the psychiatrists over there, and that she felt she should continue with this psychiatrist. C. Brown concurred in this notion, and discussed the whole problem with them trying to emphasize the fact that the approach at B______and the approach here would not be too different, and that she would almost certainly get good help there. These statements are made because the father in particular was not very happy about her continuing the psychiatric help at B___________. He asked if C. Brown would be available for help if Peggy wished to come here and C. Brown stated that he would stand by. He did say however, that they should not interpret temporary upsets on Peggy's part of temporary dislike for the psychiatrist as being a reason for shift of therapist. However, if at any point she felt thoroughly certain that she was dissatisfied, the resources here were always open to her. At this point Mr. Oak spoke up and said, "Now my wife too wanted to speak to you". Mrs. Oak immediately spoke up. "Let me talk for myself". She then went ahead to say that she decided that she would like assistance and wondered if it would be possible for C. Brown to see her. C. Brown reported that this was possible, particularly if she was willing to be a subject for the Rockefeller Research. She very willingly consented to this, and was told that as soon as possible an appointment would be given to her. She had talked relatively little in that interview except to throw in occasional information about her daughter.

On the basis of this understanding appointments were later made for her to come in for tests, and the first appointment for an interview was given on Dec. 28, 1949. It is this interview which is recorded as interview #l. It is actually the first extended conversation of any kind between the client and the counselor. However it would be difficult to understand the way in which she refers to Peggy if it were not clear that the counselor already had knowledge of that situation.


In commencing the first interview she remarked, and I am not sure whether this was recorded or not, she remarked that she had thought that the recording would trouble her. But that she had found in taking the tests that it did not bother her at all.

One other item should be added to give a full understanding of this situation. While Peggy was at B_____________, Mrs. Oak had several interviews with members of the Social Work staff there, and for a time felt that these interviews were intended as treatment for her. She therefore postponed the notion of coming in to the counselor for help. However she then phoned into the office to say that there had been a change in plans at the hospital. She was no longer to see the social worker and wished to come into the Center to begin her interviews. It was at this time that appointments were given for tests and for the counseling.


These transcripts are available for purposes of research, study and teaching. They may not be sold.

Throughout these interviews the response of the therapist (T) (Rogers), and the client (C) are numbered for easy reference.

THE CASE OF MRS. OAK/BAFO1st Interview

C1: (A couple of casual remarks as she seated herself). Well... apparently things with Peggy seem to be going well, and of course we might as well get right down to the point where it isn't Peggy. It's me. And what'll we do? Are we...where we find the source, I don't know, I mean, I'm confused, I'm shocked...I know it's this, that apparently I have made this girl my only link with life. I have a...I've sublimated everything. And I have, I don't know. But it isn't fair, I mean, it's a shocking situation. (Pause) There's a kind of transference, something, I've come to the point which of course I didn't know, where I simply identify myself with her. Of course there are these terrible tensions and the anxiety feelings. But the shocking part of it is that the, the awful part to face, I mean I'm not saying it all now, I naturally won't...is that it's really me...I mean it's, I'm afraid for myself, you see.

T1: Then you think that, you really feel it's almost as though your life is her life, or her life is your life, whichever you want to put it, and that these recent, this recent upset on her part has made that shockingly evident to you. Is that ...?

C2: Yes. Yes. My own...what shall I say...my own sort of, well, unpleasantness of the thing, the unwholesomeness.

T2: M-hm. I see.

C3: I mean, I...

T3: It sort of hits you that this isn't the right kind of relationship.

C4: That's right, that's right. It's not good. It's not good for her, and certainly not good for me. I mean I'm too young for that kind of thing. Too, it shocks me. It shocks me to the point where, as I say, as yet, I can't go into the thing and I can't actually verbalize the whole thing. The... how it happens, I don't know.

T4: Sort of feel all of a sudden that here is something that is unwholesome, wrong somehow, it's wrong for me. And yet...just what all that is, you can't say or can't even be sure probably in your own mind.

Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume 8, OAK/BAFO Session 1, page 7

C5: I can vaguely, I mean go into certain areas and pick up a scrap here and a scrap there but what I just don't know is why I'm doing it...see?

T5: M-hm, m-hm.

C6: I mean I can rationalize...

T6: Why should it be necessary for you to live your life in that way?

C7: That's right. That's right.

T7: After all, you don't...

C8: It's going to take something. I know that the thing has come back to, back to...and, maybe when we can close that area...go on to something else...It doesn't frighten me now. At first I was terribly shocked, I...but I'm not frightened now. And I don't want it that way.

T8: M-hm. That is, you mean, you don't want that kind of relationship to continue, is that ...

C9: That's right.

T9: I'm not quite clear there as to what you were saying before, that when this first hit you, and I assume by that that you mean when Peggy first had the difficulty, then it really frightened you as to what you saw in the relationship. Is that what you mean, you were...?

C10: Not when she first became ill. Not when she first had the convulsions. Then, I mean, I was simply devastated by it, and terribly concerned, terribly worried. Then, as this thing went on, in probing for reasons, I mean, oh, what could perhaps have caused it. I always had the feeling that it was, it must be partially functional, you see.

T10: M-hm.

C11: And...then when I became obsessed with these fears, I mean where, when the phone would ring I would just be shaken. Then I began to wonder, well, actually now, it's unfair to her, it's terribly unfair to her, because she is going to sense this. And then I found myself having to face the fact with while I was terribly afraid for her, what I was actually more afraid for was myself, you see.

T11: M-hm, m-hm.

C12: What was going to happen to me? Then I began looking. And I found some pretty startling things. In the first place there's an undercurrent of competitiveness.


Shocking absolutely shocking, you see. Why should it be? There it is. I mean, you take it out and you look at it, and you hate the damn thing. It's there and you don't want it to be there.

T12: Then that came about partly in this order as I get it. At first you felt fearful for what, well, you certainly seemed to fear what might happen to her and within her.

C13: Yeah.

T13: And gradually realizing that that was fear of what was happening to your extension in her almost.

C14: Yes.

T14: And then there's beginning to feel other elements had existed there, one of them being a sense of real competition with her, a thing that...

C15: That's right.

T15: ...you don't like, don't want and yet, there does seem to be an element of it in the picture.

C16: Yes. I really think there is. And I don't know why it should be there. It's not wholesome.

T16: Shouldn’t be that kind of competition.

C17: That's right. It's not a conscious thing of course. (Pause) Oh, I can think that, I mean, I can rationalize why it is. I (word lost) be successful. I might actually be using her as a (Pause) a cushion, a...something to protect my own feelings with. (Pause) See, I've always felt that I had to protect her from the criticism of her father. But now I wonder whether I was just using her as a tool. I don't know, I mean, I'm just...I don't know.

T17: You're sure of your past feeling. That you felt that you just had to shield her from her father's criticism and so on. Now you've begun to question...what was I really doing there? And...

C18: Yeah, I don't know. I really don't know. It's going to take me a long time. And it's shocking, it’s just shocking. (Pause)

T18: You don't like at all some of these elements that you have...begun to perceive in yourself in these last few weeks, hm?


C19: M-hm. Yeah. Once in a while, once, I mean in a while before, in certain situati-ons, I would get certain inklings of it, certain flashes for an instant and of course push them, I mean back.

T19: These feelings aren't complete strangers to you. It's just that in the past you've just glimpsed them and that's all.

C20: That's right. M-hm. Yeah. And yet...in spite of it all...there's a good warm feeling between us. And... I mean, we like other. And I've examined that. I'm sure. Which actually makes this other thing more sure, more... (Pause)

T20: Somehow the realization that this positive element exists almost makes it more surprising that...

C21: That's right.

T21: ...the negative picture of these things that you regard as unwholesome...exists alongside of it.

C22: Yes. Yeah. And of course, I don't want it. I don't want it to exist. And as much if not more for my own sake than for...

T22: M-hm. M-hm.

C23: And I do want to free her. I've gone along all these years, holding out for the idea that the important thing to do was to raise a girl who would be free from authority, would be a very democratic person. And look what I've done. Look. So, I, it must be pretty deep.

T23: There was such a discrepancy between the kind of thing that...

C24: That's right.

T24: ... you really wanted for her ... to free her and to let her be an independent person and all ...

C25: That's right.

T25: The difference between that and what you now see as the relationship makes you feel that it cuts fairly deep, but I gather only strengthens your feeling that you do want to free her...you do want to let her loose.

C26: Yes. Yes.

T26: And not only for her sake but for yours.


C27: But for my sake. Yeah. Because she's never going to get well. And she must have a terrific resentment against me without actually knowing it.

T27: She'd almost have to resent you, is that it?

C28: Yeah.

T28: Whether she knows it or not.

C29: That's right. (Pause) I, we'll probably have to leave this, we'll probably have to come back to it, I don't know. I have another awfully strong feeling right now that needs to be said someplace, and that is the thing that honestly, I just feel that I don't want to make another adjustment. And...I just sort of just wish I could say, look, I'm not going to, I'm not going to make another adjustment, and that's all there is to it. And I of course can't do that, and I know it. But I just have to say it.

T29: Intellectually that doesn't seem very reasonable but in the...

C30: Yeah.

T30: ...and feeling there's just that strong desire to say, I'm not going to adapt to one more thing.

C31: That's right. Now. That may very well be that I don't want to go back and face the other thing. I don't know. But it doesn't seem quite that to me. It just seems that I just don't want another pressure, I just don't want anyone to say I should do this today. I just sort of like to be able to...well, just sort of the idea of, well, maybe if I put my coat on, go out, it won't show. I...

T31: M-hm, I'm not sure I get the feeling there, but it sounds as though you're saying, I've done all the adapting, all the adjusting that I possibly can. I don't want to do any more. And...I'm not quite sure about the last one. Maybe I can just sort of cover up the situation so I don't have to. Is that...?

C32: You know what I think I mean, actually? I think I mean I just don't want to do the right thing. That's it. That I just don't want to.

T32: M-hm. Dislike doing the right thing.

C33: And just come hell or high water, I just don't want to. And I just sort of...of like to probably shock all, shock my family and shock my friends by just saying, look, I'm not going to do the right thing.

T33: Just to hell with doing the right thing.


C34: That's right. And of course I'm going to go on and I'm going to do the right thing. (Pause) But I just had to get that said.

T34: M-hm. Something that seems very strong.

C35: That's right. Almost that a...I can't say it to my husband, he would be devastated by it. But I will. I'll go on and...

T35: Feel it would just... crush him if he thought that you didn't want to do the right thing or at least you couldn't tell him that, but you're sure that in your behavior you'll go ahead and try to.

C36: No. No. No. (Pause) He, I'm sure, feels that I don't do the right thing. But is always hopeful that I will. And... just would be totally without any sympathy or understanding for a person who just one day felt they didn't want to do it.

T36: M-hm. You feel he feels so deeply or so strongly that you should want to do the right thing that he really couldn't just comprehend not wanting to do the right thing.

C37: M-hm. Right thing, of course, in quotes. A...little things... But I do think that it's going to help just to say it.

T37: You mean, you're saying there that...right thing means, in quotes, means superfi-cially right thing? Is that...? That isn't quite clear to me, I don't think.

C38: No. Because of it, while things might be superficial to me...and not to someone el-se...doesn't necessarily make them superficial things. But...what I think I mean...is ...I'm taking my place as a responsible kind of person who's concerned with how the home goes, the comforts of the people around me, a good relationship with people, a...nothing wrong about it, you see. I'm not, I mean they're all good things. (Pause) Maybe I mean a kind of unselfish way. And I just don't feel that way right now. I just don't feel it.

T38: M-hm. Here is your responsible, socially minded, somewhat unselfish sort of role that you should be playing, and at least at the moment you feel, the hell with it.

C39: That's just how I feel. Just to hell with it. And it gives me a great satisfaction to feel that way.

T39: M-hm. M-hm. (Pause) Very satisfying to sort of kick over those traces, at least in your feelings.

C40: Yeah. M-hm. I don't know. It's again very confusing. I think it, in feeling that feeling it gives me a certain amount of courage to go back and face the problems that I know I'm going to have to face. Now I don't know why now. I've sort of a...conflicting kind of...


T40: In some way that you don't quite understand, it almost seems as though getting that feeling out makes it easier to go back and face the things you've really got to face, is that... ?

C41: Yeah. M-hm. M-hm. (Long Pause) And then of course I'm always going to have to go back to that. (Pause)

T41: You're always having, you're always going to have to go back to that situation, is that.... ?

C42: No, I'm always going to have to go back and do a housecleaning job where my relationship with Peggy's concerned.

T42: I see. Wasn't quite sure.

C43: Yeah. And I'm going to do it. I don't know how to get at it. I just don't. I do know that this, I'm convinced that there has been a series of sublimations. (Pause) A lack of confidence in myself and that somehow this thing with her has compensa-ted.

T43: M-hm. M-hm. That somehow it ties in with a lack in confidence in yourself and that somehow helps to balance that...

C44: M-hm. (Pause) And that at times, as if I hadn't realized it, there's this kind of dastardly thing that, of knowing that...I can sort of control the situation where she's concerned. Could probably take from her the things that she wants and yet at the same time, unless she has those things, I mean the admiration of people, shall we say...probably boys, that I myself can't be quite happy. I've never, I, well, I haven't verbalized that at all. I mean, that is something that has popped today.

T44: You say that's a rather conflicting thing, that you...recognize that somehow you could control in subtle ways, and keep her from certain satisfactions, and yet that you aren't going to be fully satisfied unless she had those...

C45: No. No. Now...now, wait...

T45: No?

C46 ...Not keep her from them. Not keep her from them. That isn't right. (Pause)

T46: More that you could guide the situation, is that part of the feeling?

C47: Let's say that I could dominate it, that I could outdo. In other words, that I'm ... I'm just verbalizing this...


T47: M-hm.

C48: I mean I...now...

T48: ...You're saying you outdo her yourself.

C49: Yeah. Yeah. I may have to go back to retract this.

T49: This may not be the feeling but...sort of the feeling that you could be on top as far as...situations are concerned...(Pause).

C50: I don't think the girl is competitive with me. I think I am competitive with her.

T50: M-hm. M-hm.

C51: And that's been an awful shock...

T51: Been kind of...sort of a one-sided...

C52: That's right.

T52: Competition. That kind of bowls you over.

C53: Oh, it's shocking. It's just shocking. (Pause) Because again, as I say, there is this good relationship. I like her. I mean she's (word missing) but she's a swell egg, I'd say. I mean she has, she has very -- young girl of good social sense, a good humor (record turned)...and she's fun to be with. And I do care for her.

T53: M-hm. She has just lots of good qualities and you really like her.

C54: I really do. I mean, aside from any...natural kind of attachments. I mean I really like her, too.

T54: In a sense, you'd like her if she wasn't your daughter.

C55: That's right. That's right. That's exactly it. But I must go on doing something about that, I just must. And I mustn’t do it to myself. (Pause)

T55: For both your sakes.

C56: That's right. (Pause) I haven't tried to do too much analyzing of what the thing is, and how far it goes. I'm frankly a little bit afraid of peeling off too much at once. Which might also help to explain this attitude of really, this feeling of just not giving a damn right now. It might be sort of a protection from trouble.


T56: You know that you don't want to dig too deep too fast. And maybe that is tied in with this feeling of the hell with doing the right thing.

C57: Yeah.

T57: A shield is a necessary thing at this point.

C58: M-hm. (long pause) I really rather enjoy these silences. I wonder if that actually is a sort of a way of escaping from this thing.

T58: Sorry that I missed one word. You do rather enjoy...?

C59: ...these silences...

T59: M-hm.

C60: I think perhaps I need them.

T60: May be another experience which is necessary to you.

C61: Probably. (Pause) It was only, I am sure, here, in my own mind, a feeling, shall we say...a hunch about this thing. And this, I am going to beat it.

T61: You say there's a basic confidence that you can lick it.

C62: M-hm.

T62: M-hm. (Pause)

C63: It's going to take a lot of time I think.

T63: You don't think it's going to be easy or short, but you think it can be done.

C64: M-hm. (Long Pause) It's going to take some time to be able to verbalize some of the things that I feel.

T64: M-hm.

C65: Maybe some of them I never will. And I...I wonder how important that really is. I mean, I think there's something that you just never take out of the closet for somebody else to see. I don't know. (Pause)

T65: At any rate you're quite certain that...some things will be very difficult to put into words and maybe some things that won't be necessary to put into words.


C66: That's right. I think at this date, what I see is a kind of dastardly situation and some kind of things...I wonder about its implications; it's all bound up in the feelings of frustration and it just seems to me from every possible area. Intellectually, sexually, just every possible area that you can think of. And it isn't any good. I mean, that is I've come to the point where there's no satisfaction in it...any...

T66: M-hm. M-hm. As I get that, you feel that the present situation you don't like, and it seems unwholesome. Looks to you like a product of frustration in just every area of your life, and as I get the meaning of that last phrase, it is that even the means of balancing all that frustration is no longer any good.

C67: M-hm. M-hm.

T67: It isn't doing the trick.

C68: M-hm. Course, now, the serious part of the thing is that I'm going to go on doing it.

T68: No use kidding yourself about that.

C69: No. No. No. I mean, until I can...at least get a better emotional understanding of the thing. That is, shall we say I'm very apt to go on doing it? And I'm certainly going to torture myself with the feelings that perhaps I want to do that, because I've done it, which must mean I want to do it.

T69: M-hm. (Pause) You're quite certain that you'll not only go on doing it, but there'll be yourself understanding yourself in some partial way. But...you're going to be quite uncertain as to whether maybe part of the reason for doing it is because you want to do it.

C70: Well, since I have done it, I've wanted to do it, haven't I? I mean it's ultimately me. (Pause) I'll probably be a bit more watchful now. Probably check myself. But until I have worked out the fundamental reason for this thing, then I'm sure that it's going to communicate itself some way or other.

T70: No amount of just policing yourself will...

C71: No.

T71: ...hm, basically change the picture.

C72: Not basically. Apparently, probably on the surface, yes. But... (Pause) And it has to be done. It has to be done for... Peggy herself has got to work on it, from that point of view. Which means that...I can't postpone it too long.

T72: M-hm. Necessary for her that you should...think about and face yourself, is that...?


C73: M-hm. That's right. (Pause)

T73: Well, I see our forty-five minutes is about up and maybe this would be a stopping place because I'd like to ask one or two practical questions.

C74: M-hm.

T74: How often do you think you'd like to come in?

C75: Well, from the standpoint of finances, we can only take it once a week right now. So I suppose until we actually can afford more I shall have to say once a week.

T75: Well, I think I would just say this, that that's perfectly agreeable, and...on the other hand, I would want it to be quite clear that service isn't limited by finances. We must collect fees, true, we have to...but it isn't limited by financial situation.

C76: M-hm. Well, frankly, I would like to come twice a week. (Pause)At least until it clears up some.

T76: All right.

C77: Alright. Then do you think that it would be satisfactory if I would pay five dollars for two sessions a week?

T77: Whatever you feel is...I mean, you know your own family finances and your situation. You're the one to set it, and it's quite alright with me if it seems reasona-ble to you.

C78: M-hm. Yeah. Well, the hospital is an expensive thing for Peggy. I mean she's still continuing in the hospital and therapy... Gained about six pounds. Makes it a business now of just sitting down to eat. It's a marvel I mean, it hasn't happened for months and months. And she's quite happy.

T78: It's good, but it has been a burden.

C79: Yeah. Yeah.

T79: Alright, let's plan on twice a week and too they like to know at the desk, how do you want to, want to pay that once a week or...twice

C80: Yes, I think so. M-hm.

T80: And if for any reason you shouldn't bring any money, do you want us to send you a bill or will you just bring it in next time?


C81: I'll bring it in next time. I mean there may be times when I'll simply walk off and simply forget to pay any...

T81: Yeah. I'll give them a note about this, and you always pay the fee at the desk.

C82: M-hm.

T82: Well, now...

(next appointment arranged)


THE CASE OF MRS. OAK/BAFOSecond Interview (two days later)

C83: I don't know, I have a feeling I'm going to hedge today. This is just one of those days where I just don't feel like facing things.

T83: Don't want to go too far today.

C84: That's right. And, of course I may kid myself about it. I may trap myself. I've been thinking that maybe basically, in spite of my philosophy, of my social concepts, I may actually be a very competitive person. And I shouldn't like to think that. I've been sort of mulling that over once in awhile here lately. And again I think it's because of frustrations; never finding myself, or finding something to do that's the undercause of my problems; maybe a competitive feeling which I can't intellectually sanction, you see. It's because it isn't good. It isn't the kind of a person I want to be. It isn't a part of the society that I want to live in. I mean the kind of a society that I want. It's the kind that I have to live in. But...

T84: ...In other words your whole intellectual point of view and philosophy and notion of society and so on would be entirely opposed to a competitive kind of situation. And yet you've begun to question a little that maybe you are much more competiti-ve than you have...more competitive in your feelings than you have wanted to think.

C85: Yeah. That's, that's one of the things that I'm, I'm thinking about. That...of course, what to do about it. I'm convinced, I'm convinced the problem is one of just as, as I said last week of being frustrated in every area. And, and it maybe that, well I just don't have anything to, to give. That's quite possible. And yet, I, I, don't think that.

T85: That's a theoretical possibility, but that isn't...

C86: ...yeah, that's my hunch about it. That isn't so. I have a feeling I should have done something. I should have straightened out at a very, at a much earlier time in life. And what I have done, you see, is to go on rationalizing things. And I've built up a pretty good structure really, you know. I'm sort of surprised when I begin to look at it. I function rather well. I have problems. I solve problems. And I, I can't say that I'm desperately unhappy. I'm not. I've never lost my sense of humor. It just isn't, it just isn't right.

T86: It's really the structure you've had, that has functioned and worked and brought you satisfaction and the solution of problems and so on. Really a lot that can be said for it. And yet you have some feeling that, "it ain't right somehow".


C87: No, it isn't right. It isn't right. And now again it's serious because of this problem with Peggy. Maybe it...

T87: ...in other words, that's what brings it to focus or...

C88: ...yeah. Because in that situation there lies an element of danger. I really think so. And that's why I asked...I've got to do something about it.

T88: Because you see a real risk in the way that situation is going, that makes you determined to do something about the structure you have developed over the years. (Yeah) Is that...

C89: (Pause) These frustrations aren't all of my own making. They aren't...they're partially the, the...of course the result of my childhood. And maybe someday we'll touch upon it. I don't know. But there are...they're so much a part of the world that we live in. Now I'm, I'm concerned, wondering what I've done to Peggy along those lines too. I've...I know I've imparted to the kid a sense that there's pretty much wrong with the culture as it stands. I've also imparted to her the, the idea to watch out for authority. And to, to sort of live her own life. I mean sort of a come-what-may. Well now look. Then I've had...I've thrown her right back to the wall. And I wonder, I mean I actually ask myself, and I don't know the answer. The only answer I can find is that, well I probably couldn't have done anything else. But I wonder, maybe things would have been better for her if I had just raised her in a very conventional kind of a class-status way, a girl behaves thus and so and that is how, how you should behave.

T89: In other words you're raising the question, did I do right in helping her to see, and passing along to her the flaws in our culture which have been frustrating to me? Is that right? Or did I just keep her from living happily in the culture as it exists? Is that ...

C90: That's pretty much it. That's pretty much. There's more, more to it. There's more to it than that, I know. I mean that bothers me now. It didn't used to bother me. I used to think well come what may, I mean some people have to know what's going on. They just...some of us have to reject some of the culture and try to become free. Incidentally I used to be a pretty free person. But it bothers me now because she's been ill. It, it also bothers me because I, I wonder if, if she is going to be (word missed) and ... except that she isn't like her friends. Well that's partially my fault. I, I...she's different.

T90: Feel you've helped to make her different from others. And you wonder, will that cut her off from the acceptance that she should have from others.

C91: Yes. In the long run if she can withstand it, it's going to be good. But, I just wonder now whether I did the right thing. And then of course...well you, you do what you are. But it bothers me right now.


T91: It isn't so much a question of whether you decided right. You've given to her what you are. Still that doesn't stop you from being concerned about, well about the effects of that. Is that ...

C92: That's right. I mean I see it now. I see it now. I, I hear her say things which I, I give complete approval to. And yet I know darned well that she'll be criticized. And I find myself tensing up because I don't want her to be criticized, and at the same time thinking to myself, "well by golly you did it".

T92: Then there's that double feeling of wanting to shield her from criticism. And yet at the same time realizing you had a part in what she may be criticized for.

T93: That's right. That's it. And what do I do? What do I suddenly do? I revise my concepts and my feelings of, about things? That's pretty hard too.

T93: Are you supposed to take a different view of the world?

C94: That's it. And I, I doubt if I must. That was just one of the things that...it hasn't bothered me until quite recently. Did I do wrong? There's a certain conflict there with Peggy's father, too. I mean, I know I'm sure he feels that she hasn't had enough authority. And at times his arguments are well, I mean, when there are failures I sort of begin to wonder. Maybe he's right.

T94: M-hm. In other words, there has been a difference between you on this score. (That's right) And some of the things that have happened recently makes you...

C95: Makes me wonder.

T95: ...Think a little bit, maybe he was right.

C96: ...I've deepened my sense of not being sure. I was convinced, I was just convinced that the only thing you can do for a child is to stand ready to help them if they need you, regardless, I mean, of what it would be. But to, to give them their own head. Not necessarily approval, but to stand and be ready if you have to. But I don't know. Maybe that isn't right. Again in the world we live in.

T96: That is, you felt fairly sure that that stand-by sort of role was a sound one. Now though you are beginning to question, "is that what prepares the child for the world she has to live in?".

C97: Well I'm questioning. Of course it doesn't prepare them, anyone for this world, but I mean it...we don't want this kind of a world. And we also have to prepare some people who don't want this kind of world, I mean I feel... But again in view of the things that happen, I wonder if, if maybe my, my own feelings and thinking on the subject should have been sacrificed or pushed aside to the point of view that her


father had. That you do give guidance and you, you do command a certain kind of attitude toward parents. I just wonder if maybe much of her trouble...no, because her trouble isn't...there's no need to go into that. Well, let's say I just wonder if it would have been easier for her.

T97: M-hm. You wonder if you should have tried to adopt another point of view in bringing her up. One more like your husband's, is that...

C98: M-hm. One...the accepted kind of...

T98: ...something a little closer to the convention.

C99: Yeah. I won...and I wonder if I should try to revise my thinking now. I just... I probably won't but I, I wonder.

T99: Realize that in life very likely you'll change those views. And yet you wonder whether you have held the right ones, or the most successful ones.

C100: Yes, or beneficial, shall we say. I think in the long run, I think I'm right. I think I'm absolutely right. But I don’t know. But I don't know, know whether it's...I mean, if there had been com ... better agreement between her father and I, that if there had been this kind of, of acceptance on both parts, then maybe it, it would have made for a development of a kind of person that I, I...that I would like to be a party to.

T100: M-hm. If I understand that right, you're wondering "If both her father and I had held much the point of view which to me seems right, would it then have been also beneficial to either of you.

C101: M-hm. Yeah. But that, that too must have caused a great deal of conflict for the child, you see. A, a wanting to, to please her father by benefiting by his experience and, and at the same time the wanting to experiment you see with what she, she thought she was free to do with me.

T101: And those were elements that would set up conflicts in her.

C102: It must have. It certainly must have. I mean, I'm sure she's not aware of it. As far as she, as she ever goes on the point is to, to simply once in a while a perfectly deaf ear to anything her father says...her. I mean just sort of go father-deaf, you know. (Long pause) Well, you know I think on this particular thing I think probably I'm as, as I said, I have the feeling I'm going to hedge. And I think that's precisely what I did today. But it, it wasn't bad. Cause I, I...one thing I think is, is shaping up. I don't think I'm going to change these things. I mean, I think I'm going to go on pretty much the same way. And, and I...at the same time I'm going to be able to take the girl as she is, just as she is, not as I wish she would be or like she was


yesterday but just like she is. Now of course I'm going to have to add to that that she is growing up. She really is. I must also bear in mind she is going through a terribly tough period. But I don't think I'm going to change. I don't think I'm, I don't think I'm going to change this thing.

T102: In other words, what you referred to as hedging has sort of helped you to review the situation a bit and you feel that, here I'm not quite clear, you feel that you're not going to change some of the fundamental orientation that you have. Is that...

C103: That's right. I, I'm not going to try to, to retrain her into being a, a part of the certain little given culture in the, which she has to function. I probably could do this, I mean, or, or surfacely anyway. But I don't think I'm going to do that. I think I'm, I'm just going to sort of stand by and, and just take her as she is day by day.

T103: In other words your sort of reaffirming some of the basic views that you held in regard to the culture and in regard to standing by and her development. And you do want to, as I get it, add to that to various things, but as I understand what you're saying now, it is that you don't expect to basically contradict the, uh, fundamental point of view that you've had. Is that...

C104: That's right. M-hm. I'm going to have to work on, on making it more of an adult kind of thing. Now that just comes to me now. It, it ... prior to this can be...the, the, the kind of acceptance that one gives a child. Now I'm, I'm going to have to work on, on making it more mature, more...

T104: How can you accept her as an adult or a growing person (C: Yeah) rather than just as a child?

C105: Yeah. Of course all of this will be much easier when I, I go back and find out why I have been so competitive with her. But...

T105: Whereas the kind of goal you want to reach probably can be more easily achieved when you understand some aspects of yourself.

C106: M-hm. That's right. I mean all of these things today I, I feel just things that are probably going to tide me over the, the hump. I've got to get back and face some more basic things by them.

T106: See this sort of thing you've just been talking about is a way of getting along while you work on yourself. (C: That's right) Is that ...

C107: It, it has always been there. It's a kind of fundamental thing with me. But I explain, I am trying to explain to myself I realize that there is an undercurrent of an emotional distortion that is not good. It, it's not good. And most of the time quite secret you see. But if it, if it's there, and it's there I'm sure, it's dangerous and something has to be done about it. I don't know how. I really don't know how.


But I do think that if, if we or if I, if I should give up the, the philosophy that I, I held regarding how I, I feel she should be treated as a human being, I also have the feeling that these basic feelings that I have, might be just driven further in.

T107: M-hm. You're saying there, that it's necessary to your own integrity to operate in terms of the views that seem to you right, than to try to operate on some other principle. That would make it even more difficult to get at the things within yourself.

C108: And yet, of course here is, I mean there is conflict there, there really is conflict. I see it as, as she grows older, I see it in terms of her marrying. I mean is, is she going to be able to find someone who can, who can understand the kind of person she is?

T108: In other words you're not without questioning her conflict in regard to the principles you've utilized because I gather that what you're wondering is, have you unfitted her for the kind of people that she might meet.

C109: That's right. And, and so many of my friends tell me, you must raise children to live in the world, our world. You simply must. It isn't fair to them naturally. Recently I've been hearing that a great deal. Not, I mean that they have been, uh, saying it to me, but people who have...

T109: ...general idea...

C110: ...children. And I, I listen, and sometimes I find myself giving an argument and I go off and I, I mull it over and over and over. And I, of course the conflict you see comes up, it shapes up as though I'm right. I'm absolutely right, but what about Peggy? But what about Peggy?

T110: I think I get you. You mean there, that feeling you wind up is, "I am right but what are these right views doing to her?" Is that...

C111: Yeah. That's precisely it. Then I tell myself, if she can develop a feeling of se--curity and adequacy it'll be all right. Then of course, in view of this terrible shatte-ring thing that's happened to her, you can see what, what happens to me, to the things that I told myself, you see.

T111: In other words this experience of hers has tended to make you feel at least at times, "well this proves I'm all wrong". Is that what you're saying? Or do I miss that?

C112: No, it doesn't prove I'm all wrong. But it proves that to me, that something along the line went all wrong. Not the theory. But whatever it...the theories were good. I mean I'm convinced it's the only way to deal with people. But I didn't, I wasn't able to give her the sense of security and fulfillment that you must have, have too.


T112: Somehow you haven't been able to give her those experiences.

C113: That's right. Somehow I've developed...the last few days I actually found myself being ... having a, a kind of inner case where she's concerned; a, just a good kind of feeling toward her.

T113: Just as though there had been something qualitatively better, something good (C: That's right) about the relationship.

C114: A, a...I've been less tense with her. And she did blow up too at me once this week. Which I'm sure should have bothered me much more than it did, it did in view of the fact that I'm concerned about her emotional well being now. I mean where it...you see, that she was tense and ... but it, it didn't bother me quite so much as...

T114: As I get it, it concerned you for what that might mean for her (Yeah), but somehow it didn't tense you up.

C115: That's right. It, it...and it was very quickly over, the whole thing, the whole... (Pause) But I, I think back on myself, "What in the world, how did this thing come to be? Where is the door? What in...how am I ever going to find just what took place? What...why do I, why do I do it? Why do I, I feel competitive with the girl? Why do I... when I, I don't want to". I really don't want to.

T115: It's a whole series of deep questions as to (C: That's right) how did it originate? What could be the causes? How could it have resulted in something which I don't want.

C116: (Pause) I've stopped being shocked by the thing. I...I... I'm grieved.

T116: You feel really sad that it occurred.

C117: Quite. (She sounded as though she tried not to cry here)

T117: Somehow the shocked element has decreased. (Long Pause)

C118: I'm just baffled. That's all. Just completely baffled.

T118: Feel very much stumped at this point. Guess our time's just about up for today.

C119: Probably just as well. (Both laugh)

T119: (Arrange for the next appointment.)


THE CASE OF MRS. OAK/BAFO3rd Interview

(Five days later)

C120: Feel very glad to get back today. (Both laugh) A couple of things just came to my mind, say in passing so to speak. The fact that once I get into this thing, as I start talking, I'm not the least bit conscious of you. And I, of course, I know ideally I shouldn’t (words lost) ... but I'll simply have to go on as it's been. And secondly, the realization that last time I was here I experienced a, an emotion I had never felt before. Which surprised me and sort of shocked me a bit. And yet I thought, I think it has sort of a...the only word I can find to describe it, the only verbalization is a kind of a cleansing. I, I really felt terribly sorry for something, a kind of a grief. And found myself comparing it with, with things I had felt before. I, I...when Peggy was ill and I had felt this terrible anxiety and what I thought was a terrible kind of grief I realize now it wasn't. It was a kind of a hysterical feeling.

T120: You mean there, that that was sort of somehow a pseudo-feeling. This that you felt here last time was a real, genuine emotion of deep regret.

C121: That's right. And I, I've never experienced it before. It sort of makes me wonder how many things I probably am sincerely sorry for, but just have never felt, covered up. (Pause) The relationship is getting better with Peggy. I'm, I'm more at ease, again on a non-verbal kind of ... I'm not secure by a long shot. I won't be for a, a long time to come. And I'm still in the state of confusion, how to find things. What to do. I find that mulling things over in my own mind doesn't help too much. I sort of just have to wait and see what develops. Act spontaneously. I, I'm, I feel at times awfully impatient, awfully frustrated.

T121: But the relationship is improving, if I understand you rightly. Not because you've thought it all over and planned to do something differently but somehow in acting spontaneously there has been some improvement, even though you realize that you're not secure and still...

C122: That's it. I mean it, it's, it's constantly glimpsed. Because I, I...

T122: Sort of more that there are glimmers of (Yeah) better relationship.

C123: Yeah. A greater feeling of ease. But it's not to be trusted. It isn't to be trusted until I am able to do something about it. I mean, something real, until someday I can say that this doesn't exist any more. As I, I said I'm just as confused as...still have no inkling as to how to get to it.

T123: Just as muddled inside, and not at all sure how to get to whatever there is to get to.


C124: That's right. And there's always this feeling, of oh, let's leave it and let's come back to it. Or even when I don't want to come back to it I seem to come back to it. The, the...there's one thing I think that keeps popping into my mind. It is that when Peggy was born I really definitely didn't love her, very definitely. But it, it never really struck me as being a bad thing. It, it just might...my rationalization was that well I just didn't quite know how. And it...the more I would think about it I would, I would sometimes think to myself, "Well probably many women don't love babies, but...just because they've been told to, or because they've been told that their mother loved them, ... and quite secure in feeling that they did. And read it in books, and it's certainly been pounded into them, they were able to accept the role and in doing so it becomes a fact to them". But I just didn't have that feeling.

T124: You really didn't love her but you were quite sure that was true of others and that some of them at least came to develop love through playing a certain role in relation to the child, is that...

C125: Yes. I think that's what I mean. Except that they, because they didn't question it never knew.

T125: You felt that they probably were never really aware of the fact that they, that they hadn't loved the child.

C126: That's right. But then I wonder if where Peggy was concerned if my, my rationali-zation of the thing didn't hurt her.

T126: Can't help but wonder if the way you felt with that, within yourself may have...you have the feeling that you had, may really have hurt her. (Long Pause)

C127: And then of course, all down the line the, the feelings of complete frustration. The, the early years of our marriage were abominable. I mean I think I was suffering a kind of emotional shock that lasted for probably a good two or three years. Which seemed to balance to a kind of numbness and a kind of being constantly hurt. Then for years I had this feeling of sort of being on probation. Just an awful feeling. Then there followed a, a period of, of a kind of, of fighting back, a, a...well it's hard to verbalize, a, ...a kind of realization of my own worth and a fighting back. Then the undercurrent of this, this same feeling that I described, I think, the first day that I was here, that I just don't give a damn.

T127: So that your marriage has been deeply frustrating, not always in the same way. In fact in quite different phases. But, at least, in the later days, being a fighting back to, to defend yourself, I take it. I mean you emphasize the fact that you had some worth. And yet through it all is a feeling that you really don't care.

C128: That's a recent thing, this that I really don't give a hoot. And it, it's the only way I can describe it is that it gives me a certain satisfaction to, to just verbalize it. That I just don't give a damn.


T128: Not only that feeling itself but the satisfaction that you feel in expressing it.

C129: That's right...coupled of course with a rationalization that I am going to give a damn. I'm not going to just mess things up but...

T129: You don't expect to really behave that way and yet that doesn't alter the fact that you feel it and find satisfaction in feeling it. You don't give one hoot.

C130: Maybe...I'm sure that this, this identification with Peggy, or, or the complete concentration on, on her also has a, a voice in the fact that I find no outlet in sex at all. And came a time when I, I simply got tired of, of playing games. And, and the, the...began a period of, unconscious I'm sure, sublimation, again to the point of reaching the 'I don't care' point.

T130: Certainly one of the things that may have led to some of this identification with Peggy is the fact that sexually you found no satisfaction.

C131: That's right.

T131: It may also tie in with this...

C132: ...I'm sure it does, I'm sure it does. Because I have, have actually at times felt a vicarious kind of a feeling in, in a, in the, the idea that she might have a sexual pleasure.

T132: Feel that she...

C133: ...which I of course wouldn't have admitted to myself.

T133: There is at times almost a, a feeling of something akin to sexual satisfaction in thinking of that fact that she may find sexual outlet and sexual satisfaction.

C134: Yeah. So it, it looks like the transference has been pretty strong. It actually got serious. And I always come back to the idea, I don't want it. (one minute pause) I think perhaps if, if I could get a better picture of, of this feeling I have which is, is really a pretty secret kind of a thing, of not caring, I, I might be able to get at something. Because I, I'm not at all clear about why I feel that way. As a kind of a self-protection? And yet it certainly doesn't work, I mean. It doesn't work because it is secret. It, it's something that nobody really knows but me. Sure maybe my husband feels rejected at times. Although I don't think so. I actually think he's much too busy being self-righteous. But maybe if, if I could force myself not to find a pleasure in that particular feeling I could substitute it with something else.


T134: It makes you wonder if exploring that very secret and private feeling that you don't give a damn might lead to some things, might lead to finding something better, something more constructive that you can put in place. Is that what you're saying?

C135: Yeah. It might teach me something. It may, it might show me a part of me that I, I'm covering up. I just had the feeling of something...well right now it's just awfully small, that all things being equal I could just put on my hat and coat and just walk out of the thing...of course if I could have Peggy with me...and just never be concerned. Just never, never really be sorry. Well now I know that's really not right. When you, you've lived a kind of life for nineteen years there are ties. What, what will happen to those ties?

T135: Intellectually you don't regard it as sound or right. But from the feeling point of view you'd just as soon take Peggy and walk straight out of that and never think of it again.

C136: That's, that's the bad part of it. I mean not care. It's certainly not hurt. I have no desire to hurt but just no care. Well now that isn't right.

T136: Almost a complete indifference. Is that the flavor of it? Just don't feel that's right but still that is what you feel. I don't know if that's the right word for it.

C137: No it, it's something a little different, I think, from indifference. It may very well be. I mean all, all the...it may just mean my, my own inadequacies of feeling. It may very well mean that. And yet of course, always standing guard is the, is the, I mean the, the rationalization that I would never do that. And, and what I really...I really don't want to hurt anybody. I really don't.

T137: But this is something that moves around and has it's being inside of you. But always with the proviso, "Of course I wouldn't be doing this because I don't want to hurt anyone".

C138: That's right. Also because I, I don't want to hurt myself. That-that's... (Pause). I've said things in anger that I was going to do this. I couldn't go on or anything. I mean, it was a clearly an emotional kind of an outburst. Because this is the first...I mean just in these sessions that I, I've actually expressed what it is. Of course...or tried to. And I can't get away from feeling that there's a terrific satisfaction in it. Just a terrific satisfaction. I, I...

T138: You get a real kick out of the fact (That's right)... "I don't give a damn". ....

C139: There's a certain element of, of, of humor as, there's a certain, well I just sort of like to even sort of giggle over it.

T139: The only satisfaction is real pleasure, with kind of a funny tinge to it.


C140: That's right.

T140: Sort of, if I get the feeling, "Hurray, I don't give a damn".

C141: That's right. And I don't. I don't actually. I don't want to give it up. I, I want to examine it. I want to find out what it is. Because I, I think it's the beginning of something, I'm not sure what.

T141: Somehow within that feeling there lies the key to some things. Or at least there lies some significant material for you.

C142: I really think so. Of course it doesn't carry over into my home life when I, I tense up, feel very driven. And ... but I certainly feel it here sometimes.

T142: It's not just something you talk about here, it's something you've really experien-ced.

C143: That's right. I really do. I think...well of course I may have to drop it entirely ...but I think if, if something, that if I could get to work with the edges taken off the, the complete selfishness that I, I feel, that is, it would be a, a kind of feeling that would take me through some, some pretty tough things.

T143: Are you saying there that there's enough force to this feeling, enough strength to it that if somehow it were turned in a different direction it might really see you through some things? Is that what you mean?

C144: What I mean is this, this is it. I mean if I really didn't care. Then care isn't the word. But if I were, if a part of me which is so damn strong and so secure, then I really wouldn't care. But it wouldn't have the same...It...

T144: That if really you were strong enough within yourself so that you didn't care that would be a security, a strength within you.

C145: Then I wouldn't give a damn without any of the unpleasant connotations.

T145: The same words still might be used to describe it but it would have a definitely different, stronger meaning without some of the unpleasant angles.

C146: That's right. So I'm going to hang onto that yet. And see just what happens to it.

T146: I get the feeling that that really has lots of meaning for you.

T147: I really only feel it very, very strongly here. (Over minute and half pause) Remem-ber once I, I spoke about the...I, I thought I was a competitive person? I don't think that's true. I, I...


T147: ...You don't think that's...

C148: No. I think, I think what it is, what it might be, certain drives within me to do something. A certain yearning for a kind of recognition. And I don't think that's competitive. I really don't.

T148: You think a more accurate description of it is that it's a desire to be something, to do something.

C149: That's right. A, a frustration, a something there that's just sort of gone to waste.

T149: The potentialities have never been expressed but crave expression.

C150: M-hm. (Pause) And that too I, I think sort of gets, gets pushed over onto Peggy someway as...and, and I feel, knowing what I, I do now, that had I seen, seen accomplishments in her or coming from her, and she received the, the things that I wanted that would, probably would have made things much worse. What I'm, I might have come then to just, oh to resent her.

T150: M-hm. Had she been able to achieve and do some of these kind of things that, that had a lot of meaning for you, you might have resented the fact that (That's right) she had gotten there.

C151: Now I don't think I would. I, I've seen that. I felt, felt very strongly that I wanted certain things for her. Well I, I'm sort of beginning to see that what I actually wanted were certain things for myself.

T151: What you were looking for was not entirely for her but for you.

C152: M-hm. (Long Pause) And look exactly what happened. We have a person who is, who is, who feels that she has...because they haven't had certain achievements...I, I... and it's not the word achievement, it's recognition I think.

T152: What you craved is a response and a recognition from others, not just the...

C153: That's right. And, and a real, I mean, an, something I've covered up, a definite desire to be doing something worthwhile. But along with that absolutely no action. None whatsoever. No, no actual doing anything about this thing.

T153: There's been a strong desire to be doing something worthwhile along with a complete apathy in regard to doing anything, is that...?

C154: Never doing it. In fact I think almost a fear. Probably scared to death. (Pause) I don't know, sort of off hand it makes me a terrific mess of conflicts.

T154: You're pulled in several different directions.


C155: I don't know as I'm pulled, I think it's probably just sort of, I think we could make it a chart, we'd probably find huge curves of sublimation, and a "very well adjusted person". We've always got to come back to that. I'm sure that we...well my friends have said, I was...why if they could behave as rationally and as intelligently, in quotes, why...

T155: You're sure that to the external world, and to your self to some extent you're rationally well adjusted. But on the other hand you feel that you're a walking big chunk of sublimation.

C156: Yeah. I'm sick of it. You probab...well I think you know what...I'm just sick of it. I, I...

T156: The hell with that way of getting along.

C157: Yeah, I'm tired of myself. I, I don't dislike me but I'm, I'm tired of me. It's too tough.

T157: Too hard to carry the burden of being yourself in that way.

C158: M-hm. (Pause) I think probably that's something else I've hit upon today. I, I felt just like myself. And I have a rather peculiar feeling about this point. I, I'm ...well it's, it's a feeling of, of sort of meeting up with myself. And, and I, I don't dislike myself.

T158: Not a dislike, but more a getting acquainted with yourself. Kind of a face-to-face with yourself.

C159: Yeah.

T159: More discovery almost than dislike. Is that what you're saying?

C160: Yes. I think, I think I suspected.

T160: It isn't an unexpected discovery.

C161: That's right. And, and I think, I'm not sure, I think the original shocks are, are about through. I don't think what I'm, I'm going to feel is going to be shock. It'll be something else. Maybe what I mean is I'm going to learn to live with myself. I, I don't know.

T161: Quite sure that what ever is ahead, you doubt if it's so much shock as it is more learning how to live with the self that you're meeting. Looks like time...

C162: Hm !


(After record: mentioned she was seeing psychiatric social worker at Peggy's hospital but not finding it helpful).


THE CASE OF MRS. OAK/BAFO4th Interview

(Two days later)

C163: (Laughing) I just came from the hospital. Apparently things have been going all right. I suppose they know what they are doing. Peggy's doctor is going to be out of town for two months. And in the meantime Peggy is to see a certain psychiatric social worker...rather on the young side. And I feel it's too bad but yet I've got to assume that they know what they're doing. Peggy's attitude is pretty much that it's waste of time. I mean a sort of a, well quote, it's, "Why should I go over and shoot the breeze with this girl". But it's just one of those things It's kind of disturbing to me but...

T163: A kind of a disappointing thing to have occur.

C164: Yeah, yeah. It, it may be perfectly all right. What occurs to me, what may happen, is that she may simply, as she says, shoot the breeze with this girl for awhile and by the time he comes back be through with that kind of thing. It's entirely possible. I, I went into the...still building up the case history, and drawing today my impressions of her father. And it sort of surprised us to find that I hadn't realized that I'd never known him to do anything impulsively. And, it's kind of frightening. I sort of learned something.

T164: It was a new discovery for you.

C165: Yeah. I, want to air some of the things that, the current things the...something that has taken place. Peggy, while she was in the hospital, met up with this young boy who was there at the, at the same time. An awfully sweet kid. But for what I'm, I'm able to gather from the symptoms from what little background that I have, a psychic paranoia. Well those kids have developed a, a kind of friendship. Certainly interesting. And strangely enough it doesn't alarm me. Peggy's attitude toward him is something I, I haven't seen before in her. It's a kind of gentleness, a concern, occasionally an overt demonstration of just affection, I mean, just simple affection. Oh, she hasn't had an ache or a pain since she's gone in, into this thing. But, but sometimes becomes quite concerned over him. Well as I said, it doesn't worry me. And I wonder if it should. He has gone into one of his emotional whing-dings when he's been with her. I'm sure it would have terrified me. It didn't frighten her. Or at least if she...she said she was tired afterwards. And, I mean...I felt she handled it in such a mature way. Just took command sort of and put the


boy in the cab and took him back to the hospital. But her father is quite concerned, quite worried.

T165: You find yourself more interested, and surprised a bit at some of the facets of her personality (Yes, that's right) as it's coming out in some of these ways of behaviour. But you don't feel concerned about it. And wonder why you're not concerned or whether you should be.

C166: Whether I should be. I mean I, I have the feeling that it is something that is not going to hurt her. He isn't going to hurt her. In, in spite of some, some, I mean of factors which are, are, would make one wonder. I mean I'm sure that six months ago I'd have been terrified by the thing. And yet I've this underlying feeling that it isn't dangerous. I, I...there's no danger to her. Now...and of course that may be wrong, I don't know.

T166: You see certain objective facts that should be negative but your feeling is that in spite of those there isn't real danger for her in the, in the situation.

C167: Yes. That's my feeling. And, and yet because her father is, is so concerned and, and then I wonder, well maybe he's being more rational about this thing than I am.

T167: Seems at least an intellectual possibility to you that your feelings might be wrong, and his concern might be a little more correct way of looking at it.

C168: That's right. Yet on the, on the other hand actually, I mean, I don't see very much that I, I could do. What if I were to say no and call a halt to this thing, "Mustn't see this boy, he mustn't see you", and I know darn well that if they wanted to see each other they certainly would. So I am largely without the element of, of possible danger, that one can't foresee. It's a good experience for her. I mean it's a, a kind of outgoing thing, an interest in, in someone else that is, that lacks the, the concentration on the self.

T168: In those respects you're glad to see her have this kind of an experience.

C169: Yeah, yeah. And her, her behaviour is entirely different with this boy than I have ever seen it before. (Pause) I don't know. I don't know how much… I very often have the feeling that we, we actually can't control most things. That we only kid ourselves into thinking we can. But I, I...again you see it is another one of the conflicts. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.

T169: That is, you doubt if really we control very much. We just sometimes think we do. But maybe I should put a question mark after that.

C170: That's right. I mean, I'm...certainly here again is another conflict. Am I, am I right in assuming without any real evidence that, that this, that this won't be a dangerous thing, that serious harm couldn't come from it? I, I have no way of, of testing it, of


being scientifically sound. I'm only guided by a kind of feeling. And I ask myself, well how much of, of that feeling is, is, is because of the immediate good that I see in, in what it seems to do for Peggy, and incidentally for the boy.

T170: You're fearful you may be sort of misled or blinded in your judgment by the fact that certainly the immediate results are good.

C171: M-hm. And of course I'm always led back to the idea that there really isn't a devil of a lot I could do. Then that, of course, comes in to conflict with, with, well what if I am wrong and her father has been right. What about... how terribly I would blame myself. So...

T171: Several angles there. Feel that it is safe. Feeling that you might be wrong. Feeling that it would be a terrible thing for you if it turned out that her father was right and you were wrong.

C172: M-hm. M-hm. And then I go back to the idea, well after all there isn't very much I can do. Doing something might...well I feel that doing something would be the worst thing.

T172: You have more certainty about that feeling, that trying (Yeah) to intervene would (Yeah) almost certainly do damage.

C173: Yeah, yeah, that's right. And by and large it doesn't worry me much. (Over a minute pause) I have a feeling I've had since I started these sessions here, a feeling I've described of not giving a damn, that kind of thing, while it still isn't beginning to shape up into something, it's, it's there. And, and I find that, I find a, a kind of, of self-centeredness that's kind of hard to put into words. It isn't a selfishness. It's, it's a kind of...and it isn't a preoccupation. But it's kind of feeling myself to the exclusion of other things. And I know what it is I want to do. I want to be able to, to feel myself in, in rather the same way, I, I...not with so many sharp edges maybe. And to be able to always feel myself, but in relationship to the...to, to things, and personalities which it, it seems to me at present I, I sort of want to push aside.

T173: M-hm. That is as you've explored this feeling it's sort of emerging a little more clearly as to what it's all about. And it seems as though it's a sort of a focus on self, or an experiencing of self that doesn't have any very close contact or sort of excludes the experiencing of and with others. And yet that's a direction you'd like to, to move. Is that something.

C174: Yeah, I think, yeah, yeah. It's something like that. I, I'm pushing things away from me right now and I'm not quite accepting responsibilities e-even. But it's a...I have to come back, a kind of self-centeredness that...while actually it isn't a selfish thing it probably appears very much so right now.


T174: But there is that centering in self to a degree where it could appear like selfishness to an outsider. And where you don't want to bear burdens except those that are you.

C175: That's right. Not only for others, I, I'm just not...I'm not even interested in the, the...I'm interested but don't want to be preoccupied with the, the day to day kind of thing. I'm not particularly interested in, in going home tonight and preparing a meal. I'm not the least bit interested.

T175: Are you saying that there's quite a little of this "I don't really care a hoot" attitude involved in a good many of your relationships with things and people outside of yourself?

C176: That's right. Now I know that that's going to pass. I mean, that I'm sure now. I'm, I'm sure that that's going to pass where it's, where...and I don't believe that I'm, I'm preoccupied in thinking about myself. It's, it's... in fact I don't. I don't think I think nearly as much about myself as I did. I sort of almost don't care what I, I think. But there's this...

T176: ...There's less caution perhaps in what you think and feel. Is that what you're saying? That there used to be perhaps. Less guarded. Is that...?

C177: There isn't the same seriousness, the same...a sort of feeling that, what I think really doesn't make too much difference. That it's, it's something else, it's something else. That what I, what I, I actually think isn't it. It's almost as though I would, would say to anything I say, that isn't it. It's, it's something else. It's as though I were to say that what I think intellectually isn't nearly as important as something I want to happen to me on a nonverbal plane. It's all very vague. It's, it's a...and...

T177: ...What you want to occur isn't in the intellectual and verbal realm, it's something with quite a different quality.

C178: That's right. And the self that I'm, I'm centered on is somewhat in the same realm.

You see. You know it all...

T178: ...What you say and so on is okay, but that isn't the real focus. The real focus on yourself is in the (That's right) area that is not the verbal, intellectual area.

C179: Besides most of the time I'm not actually thinking about myself really. I-I'm concerned with the problems which come up. But it, it's a self-centeredness of a different kind. And the, and the more I try to verbalize it, the more vague the thing sounds. And...but it's just something I know is there. And...what I'm consciously and I hope unconsciously looking for is the door, the way through. Of course I don't have the feeling it's a long way off.


T179: What you're looking for are the doors through for that deeper kind of self, or to this deeper kind of self.

C180: Well I don't know. No it, if...the only thing that comes to my mind is that I'm sort of looking for doors to go in and sort of clean out dark corners. So, so that the self will be there without any of this...the outer behaviour that I'm sure that is not good, is not pleasing. And I'm certainly not understandable to…

T180: There is the feeling that if you can find the doors, go in and clear out the dark corners that then the self would function without some of these behaviours that you don't like very well and that you're not very satisfied with.

C181: That's right. I think that's exactly what I mean. (Pause) I sometimes find myself, I've found myself, well, coming over here, sort of feeling sorry for myself, in sort of a strange way. Thinking, gosh it must be rather nice just to have a problem and talk it out, find your way. 'Cause it, I don't know, it seems to me a problem can be solved. And for myself I always find myself coming back and thinking over and over, there's so many areas, so much muddle, so many complex, and always coming back to the fact it's on a nonverbal plane.

T181: You feel quite strongly a certain amount of pity for yourself that you don't have just a problem kind of thing. But a whole lot of areas to be dealt with somehow. And areas that are not verbal and that are not right up here on top.

C182: M-hm. M-hm. And I don't know how to get at them.

T182: Where are the doors, and what are the doors?

C183: That's right. (About a minute and half pause) Probably not a very pleasant person to be living with right now, come to think of it. (Over a minute pause). Might as well come out, there's a lot of hostility there, a lot of hostilities there. And I think, "My God!" My husband is a pretty damn awful person to live with too. And it might just as well come out, a difficult, difficult person. And, in spite of the fact that you tell yourself you can't change a person, it's pretty difficult.

T183: But you're quite willing...you just feel that you're probably a pretty difficult person to live with at this point. But the feeling rises very strongly, but he's a damn difficult person to live with and I'd like to change him even though I realize that isn't very feasible.

C184: That's right. He is self righteous. Because he just is self righteous. And he, he does so want this family to be impressed with his wisdom and his, his authority which he craves. It just irks me. It does irk me. There's no doubt. Sometimes I feel very strongly about it, pretty...

T184: ...It just annoys the hell out of you.


C185: That's right. It just makes me fighting mad. And I think what makes me most angry at him is the sense of self righteousness.

T185: M-hm. Just the thing that irks you most is the way that he feels that he's right.

C186: That's right. No it isn't being right. It isn't being right. Because you can prove to someone that, when they aren't right. It's kind of inner self righteousness.

T186: Not the...so much that he feels right in the sense of being correct of anything, it's that he just feels inwardly that he is a righteous person.

C187: That's right, a righteous person. That is it. And I just have the feeling that that isn't...I mean that that isn't right. It isn't good. It, it...good grief, I can be a stinker and, and it doesn't even bother me too much.

T187: You just don't like in him that self righteous feeling when you know that in yourself you don't feel that way. I mean, you recognize that you may be pretty bad in spots or at times.

C188: You see what this does...I think I know what it does...it puts him in a position for judgment. And I don't weigh up too well. I mean, I really don't, according to most standards maybe. I mean, maybe that's why I, I resent it so.

T188: That is, his attitude gives him sort of an assumed right to weigh the scales and you don't feel that you measure up very well in those. Possibly that's one reason you resent the judging so.

C189: Maybe. Quite possible. Because maybe if, if I were more secure in myself then it, it...his, his sense of righteousness wouldn't bother me. I would just probably be able to say well that's a quirk that is silly. But it, it probably wouldn't bother me. That's probably...

T189: ...If you were more sure and secure within yourself then probably you could take it or leave it sort of. It just wouldn't make as much difference.

C190: That's right. That’s right. But as it is it just irritates the hell out of me. (Long pause) So we always come back to me. I don't like it. (Laughing, sort of) I don't like it.

T190: All roads lead to you and that's not a pleasant destination, huh?

C191: No. I wouldn't say it's not pleasant. I don't feel that. But I, I, I just sort of wish maybe there might be a short cut. Maybe if we could mow down a, a few people o-on the way why (both laugh) it would be a, a short cut.


T191: Are you, are you saying there that if some of these things could be clearly and solely problems in the other person, maybe a little cutting down to size, that would be kind of satisfying?

C192: Yes, it would be satisfying. But what I, I'm saying, I think, is this, "Look I'm not quite so bad as some people. I, I...why don't some people change?" And, uh...but then I find myself tripping over my own feet. It's...no matter what changes would be brought about...I mean these feelings will come out. I'm glad they do and it's, but it is...let's say for instance, with the wave of the wand I were, I would be able to make my husband into almost an ideal person who would be extremely careful of my feelings and it would still be me. My stomach would still knot up, I'm sure, I'm sure.

T192: M-hm. So that there is the feeling on the one hand, "Why don't some of these other people do some of the changing?" And then along with that there is the feeling that even if they did parts of yourself would get in your own way...

C193: That's right.

T193: ...that would need some kind of looking at.

C194: That's right. I have the feeling I'm not going to be satisfied with, with...I'm not going to be satisfied with myself.

T194: Any amount of that first sort of thing wouldn't leave you with the inner satisfaction with yourself that you'd like.

C195: I think I would be bitterly disappointed if, if I were, would have to come to the realization that, that there wasn't very much that I could do for myself, that I would have to go back to working along with the same tools. I really think I, I could face it out surely, but I'd be, I'd be pretty darn disappointed.

T195: It'd be a real disappointment if this self of yours had to remain the same instrument for dealing with life without any change.

C196: Yeah, that's precisely it.

T196: Well (arrange for next appointments)



(Three days later)

C197: I don't know, not very many things seem to be coming through to talk about today. Sort of a relaxed kind of bogged down kind of feeling. Of course what I, I like to talk about most and try to get down to is the, the relationship with Peggy, the things of first importance to me. It certainly is better. But I'm still not quite satisfied with it myself.

T197: That's the thing you wish you could kind of begin to get somewhere with, even though it is better, but I sort of gather, that how to get any further into it, that's sort of difficult.

C198: How to establish a secure kind of a foundation for the thing so that it won't blow up. It is better, it's very good apparently and I, I don't have the tensions I had and consequently she doesn't feel tense. But I, I, I still have the, the realization that it just isn't a kind of a relationship that I want.

T198: Sounds as though your feeling is that it's better, better on the surface and going along more smoothly but whether, whether really it's better at any deep level, or whether it has achieved at a deep level the kind of thing you want, that you doubt. Is that...

C199: That isn't quite it. That isn't quite the feeling. It's more, at a, a deeper level. There is a, a kind of understanding of what I want which through the realization of, of letting come through what was really there is, is, is probably more sound. But it's that I don't trust my emotional reactions. I just don't trust them. They're probably going to be all right. But it's, it's...

T199: ...You realize that...I didn't get you, the feeling. It's almost as though the...as I understand it now, some of the deeper feelings probably are, are sound. They would operate in directions of the kind of relationships that you would like. But you don't know whether they can be trusted yet and there's a lot there you're not sure about.

C200: That's right. That's right. It seems to be that, that a certain discovery, through, through finding out that, that it wasn't good, it wasn't a healthy kind of thing, I did uncover something good. But it, it's (Pause) it's not a sure thing. It's a sure thing but other factors I, I feel may throw me for a loop.

T200: So then, well discovering and working through some of the things you didn't like about the relationship you really have unearthed something that basically you feel quite sure about, but you're not too sure about putting that into operation, not too


sure that other things may not work against this adequate expression in the whole situation.

C201: M-hm. M-hm. (Pause) To restate it...I don't know, sometimes if I keep restating things here it, it helps me...I have found that there is, that there is an element of a kind of a relationship that I would like to have, somewhere within me. I can, I can rationalize it, and understand fully that that is exactly what I want. But again on the, on the nonverbal plane I feel certain conflicts that lead me to be suspicious, to wonder, well to feel I've got to do a lot more work.

T201: You've discovered the germ or the foundation was in yourself, of the relationship you really want. Intellectually you can see how that can work out into the kind of relationship you really want. (M-hm). But, if I get it correctly, some of your feelings haven't learned that yet. I mean they're still working at cross purposes and all of that.

C202: It's as though the, the...I have to fuss, somehow bring together what I am able to intellectualise with this something that I know is there. It all comes pretty vague. But you know I keep, keep having the thought occur to me that this whole process for me is kind of like examining pieces of a jig-saw puzzle. It seems to me I, I'm in the process now of examining the individual pieces which really don't have too much meaning. Probably handling them, not even beginning to think of a pattern. That keeps coming to me. And it's interesting to me because I, I really don't like jig-saw puzzles. They've always irritated me. But that's my feeling. And I mean I make up little pieces (She gestures throughout this conversation to illustrate her statements) with absolutely no meaning except I mean the, the feeling that you get from simply handling them without seeing them as a pattern, but just from the touch I probably feel, well it is going to fit someplace here.

T202: And that at the moment that, that's the process, just getting the feel and the shape and the configuration of the different pieces with a little bit of background feeling of, yeah they'll probably fit somewhere, but most of the attention's focused right on, "What does this feel like. And what's its texture?"

C203: That's right. There's almost something physical in it. A, a...

T203: You can't quite describe it without using your hands. A real, almost a sensuous sense in...

C204: ...that's right. Again it's, it's a feeling of being very objective, and yet I've never been quite so close to myself.

T204: Almost at one and the same time standing off and looking at yourself and yet somehow being closer to yourself that way than...


C205: M-hm. And yet for the first time in months I am not thinking about my problems. I'm not actually, I'm not working on them.

T205: I get the impression you don't sort of sit down to work on 'my problems'. It isn't that feeling at all.

C206: That's right. That's right. I suppose what I, I mean actually is that I'm not sitting down to put this puzzle together as, as something, I've got to see the picture. It, it may be that, it may be that I am actually enjoying this feeling process. Or I'm certainly learning something.

T206: At least there's a sense of the immediate goal of getting that feel as being the thing, not, not that you're doing this in order to see a picture, but that it's a, a satisfaction of really getting acquainted with each piece. Is that...

C207: ... That's it. That's it. And it still becomes that sort of sensuousness, that touching. It's quite interesting. Sometimes not entirely pleasant, I'm sure, but...

T207: A rather different sort of experience.

C208: Yes. Quite. (Pause) My daughter said something to me the other day and I thought it was very interesting. For some reason it, it pleased, well I'll explain why it was. She said, "You know, you're a stinker since you've been going for therapy". And at first it sort of shocked me. Then I, I...the subject was changed. I mean she made some kind of a very light kind of a...it pleased me, actually pleased me. Three months ago she would never have noticed. She would have felt, "What are you doing to me. Why are you making..." It was just a simple statement of fact. "You're a stinker since you've been going through therapy". Kind of light, which is probably, I mean quite true. I sort of have been. I've been, well, I haven't been out doing myself. If you know what I mean. I, I haven't been bending over backwards. I've just sort of been...I haven't been walking on eggs to, to...I haven't been artificial probably.

T208: And I catch two feelings there, you seem to think that you've found real satisfaction in the fact that she can be responding to you (That's right) I mean, as though she really noticed you, she reacted to you and responded to you. (Yeah). And if she thought that you were a stinker, well, quite possibly you have been to some extent and that doesn't seem to bring anything but satisfaction either. I mean not, not because you're a stinker but because you don't think you've been artificial.

C209: That's right. I felt no anxiety over the whole thing. But I was really gratified when it hit me suddenly. This girl has noticed a, a separate personality. I mean, not what you have done to me, but what you are.

T209: You thought she has really come in contact with you as a separate person.


C210: Yeah. And it sort of pleased me. It seemed quite healthy to me. And it was quite simple then for me to admit, yes I, I suppose I have been. So I...it seemed to me that it, it's these little pieces that will someday spell the whole, whole thing.

T210: I sort of sense there a feeling of relaxation about that too, that they will fill in the whole picture, spell out the whole thing. But it sounds as though you don't feel anxious about that or determined that they shall or anything. You're feeling the pieces.

C211: That's right. I'm still confused. There's still confusion. There's the, uh...I'm still baffled by the thing. I've decided one thing, it's something I can't sit down and rationalize out. I absolutely can't do that. I, I know rationally there are still places I can't even look. Simply because primarily I don't want to. I just don't want to. It seems to me, I, I can't call upon any philosophy to help me out. I know what I've learned I'll be able to use on a day to day kind of basis. And it'll help. But it, it seems to me I...this thing has, has, is going to be a little bit different from anything you can actually learn.

T211: Are you saying there that the, that the conviction grows that any amount of plain or fancy thinking isn't, you feel, going to be the answer to this. (That's right) Something of a different order somehow.

C212: That's right. And I, I keep coming back to the idea that if somehow, that somehow the fusing together of, of what I know and want intellectually with, with words in this particular case don't mean anything. And, and emotional quality in quotes, I mean, just what is that: What do we know about it?

T212: In other words the goal as nearly as you can formulate it is some kind of a fusion between the things intellectually you know you want and something pretty deep in you that doesn't lend itself easily to words, or labels or...it isn't that kind of a thing, but somehow it's there.

C213: M-hm. M-hm. And I think it's entirely possible that it can happen.

T213: Again without being able to put that into verbal terms, it's nevertheless a good deal of feeling and assurance that that can come about.

C214: M-hm. M-hm. (Over a minute pause) Over in this other area of, of sex life, again comes this feeling of just not being interested...of understanding, understanding the value intellectually and, and ... but just not particularly...not being interested. I could give all kinds of reasons. They would be obvious ones that we've all known...of not knowing satisfaction. And, and yet it's hard for me...none of those are really very honest answers. It's just something within myself. Not a whole person or the...none of the typical kind of answers. And yet I, I could give any of them as, as...


T214: ...Give any one or several of a lot of the customary reasons for lack of satisfaction in sex life and yet, I gather that as near as you can phrase it that the truer answer comes closer to being a little bit of this same thing we saw in other areas, "I just don't care about it". Is that...

C215: ...Yes that's part of it. That is the manifestation of it. Now I think it's, it's something else besides that too. It is, it's a, it may be just because I, I felt inadequate, that I, I...you know this is a strange thing to say, but I think it is entirely possible, and this hadn't ever occurred to me before, that I could of split myself up into a, a almost two separate sides of a personality. Now again I don't mean in the accepted terms...where one part of me is completely intellectual. I mean where...that was the part I liked, sort of, not partic- ... not liked but I found more satisfying. The, the other part I, I just sort of ignored, just sort of, of... what I mean is again this fusion, I never quite get together. Then the, the thought that follows the step that occurred to me just then was again in Peggy, there was this transference, actually a complete person, a, a I mean she was a complete person, without my knowing it. I mean, full of potential, I mean healthy sex drives, well, of being a complete person.

T215: The fusion seemed to have taken place in her, at least to be possible for it to take place.

C216: Yeah. Rather than in me.

T216: M-hm. Where in you they were the two selves, one intellectual and more...I gather the self that knew better and so on. And the other one...

C217: ...The self that would, would work for me. You know what I mean, that wouldn't let me down. A, a...well naturally not, I mean it was a self that could make excuses. And, and work thinks out pretty well. And, and...

T217: A very useful self.

C218: That's right. And a careful self. One that didn't hurt too much.

T218: Didn't hurt you too much.

C219: Yes. Because there's always a way out, always rationalize your way out.

T219: A good careful manager, and saw to it that you didn't get hurt too much and yet could get lots of things done.

C220: That's right. Even if I would be hurt, again I could rationalize this thing you see.

T220: It could even stand a few wounds.


T221: That's right.

T221: Or pretend they weren't wound, or something.

C222: Or see reasons for them. (Long Pause)

T222: I'd like to see if I caught one phase of that correctly. Here, here's this useful, intellectual self and this other more vague self. And you saw the fusion of those as possible to take place in Peggy rather that in you. Is that part of the feeling?

C223: I feel that that might have happened.

T223: I see, m-hm.

C224: You see.

T224: Something that intellectually appears possible but...

C225: ...It might have, have happened too. It seems entirely possible, entirely possible, that unconsciously, kind of, I, I saw her as a whole person. Then it's entirely possible that because I saw her like that and saw myself in her like that that that there might also have, have been a, a kind of envy there. Certainly not consciously. See I've never been conscious of, of these things.

T225: Is that sort of a speculative feeling that, maybe you've envied something of her wholeness. If you did it certainly was not something you were aware of. And yet it may very definitely have existed.

C226: Yes. Yes. (Pause) It may also be entirely possible that because of those factors that I, I...we, we talk about being competitive. That may have been mixed with, with something else, a resentment, a, even a desire for her not to be a whole person. It's quite possible. I, I'm not sure.

T226: There may have been some fairly contradictory feelings mixed in there, of wishing that she wouldn't be a whole person. Because if...a certain basic resentment to see her whole and not feeling whole yourself. Is that (Yes) putting it too strongly?

C227: Well, since I'm very unsure I, I don't know. It's, I think there's...

T227: ...That kind of a thing is a possibility.

C228: Yes. Something like that. Why else...and I (words lost) that was, I mean really intellectually I never really wanted. I, I, I wanted freedom for her. Really believed it. And yet it, it seems to me, it would seem to me that, that if, if we are able to communicate what we, we feel intellectually then certainly, since I've just about proven to myself that I, I, I do feel one way intellectually towards her and


emotionally, or have felt something else, that probably has communicated itself too without her knowing it, you see.

T228: You expect that you've probably been telling her and communicate to her a good many things besides what you've said.

C229: That's right. M-hm.

T229: And some of them quite contradictory (Yeah) to what you say.

C230: I mean probably they've been seriously unhealthy. (Over a minute and half pause) Going back over this, my, my very reason of this, for want of a better term we'll probably find a term as we go through this thing...a kind of intellectual self, you used the word useful. My, my feeling was to reject the word. (T: M-hm.) Because, I don't know, useful sort of, of...comes before constructive to me, I guess you would say, a play there, a tie-up. Now I can't quite think in terms of usefulness if, if, if in my thinking the, the idea of usefulness is, is also constructive. Not useful. That is, isn't quite what I...

T230: ...That, that term just doesn't convey the feeling (C: No) that that self has for you.

C231: It worked. It works. It still works.

T231: Effective.

C232: Yeah.

T232: It got things done.

C233: But it isn't useful.

T233: I see. I see. Because useful has a little more the connotation of constructive. Is that...

C234: Yes. I mean I solved...

T234: ...Just got thinks done.

C235: ...in my silence it kept coming back no, to accept useful is a little dishonest there. It, it could...some, somewhere very close on the heels of usefulness to me involves constructiveness.

T235: It's more simply the feeling that this self worked, it got things done.

C236: Yeah. Solved, solved problems.


T236: M-hm., met situations.

C237: M-hm. Yeah, it, it seems to me built layer upon layer of, of what I haven't the slightest idea.

T237: Built those layers...I'm not sure that I understand where...around itself to wall out the other self?...or maybe you can't say either.

C238: I can't say either. But I mean just, the feeling I get just sort of, instead of putting them this way, put them in between. A sort of protection from myself.

T238: Slowly kept building layers that in some way kept you from yourself. Is that...?

C239: No. No.

T239: Protected yourself?

C240: Because the other part of me isn't myself either.

T240: I see.

C241: You see. No the, the only way I can verbalize it is so vague I know, is that instead of building this way, it built between.

T241: Between the two (C: selves) selves. Okay I do get that. It's more that it kept buil-ding layers that kept more deeply, or more firmly separating these two parts whichever (C: That's right.)...well without either one perhaps being yourself.

C242: That's right. And which, which kept me functioning on a, a certain plane, a certain level. Here I'm just becoming aware of that. I, I, I've read a great deal about the importance of functioning organismically. I subscribe to it and probably thought I did. And now I am convinced that I don't. And, and, and can't.

C242: Just become dimly aware of that division in yourself and of the way that that divi-sion has been strengthened.

C243: That's right. Probably over a life-time.

T243: And in spite of the fact that intellectually you thought that you believed in and were functioning as a whole.

C244: That's right. Which of course takes us right back to where we were. To the pieces. (Pause) Because just admitting that things are wrong isn't going to solve anything. It's just a question of, of letting something take place within. With my help to be sure. Now a certain part of me tells me that, I, I'm sounding very mystical.


T244: Sounds perhaps a little bit out of this world but you have a pretty strong feeling that something has to happen within you.

C245: M-hm. (Pause) I feel pretty sure that it will. More and more I'm coming to feel that. It can't be hurried and it'll just have to be in my own way, in my own time.

T245: Sort of has it's own time.

C246: That's right. Now I, I sometimes have this, this strange and almost humorous kind of a longing for, for just a problem. And somehow it, it sort of helps me through this thing. A, a... the little, I don't know, kind of a private joke. If I just had a problem, how lucky I would be.

T246: That's sort of a humorous way of looking at it that gives you a lift. Partly because it's so far from what really is going on. Is that...

C247: Yes. I think, I think really there's something else to it. This is sort of wild and vague. You know, I sort of have the feeling that I'm getting ready to tell myself a joke. And sort of easing up to it and just this little humour that I catch on the way, helps me to feel that the punch line isn't going to be as shocking as I anticipate. Now th-that's sort of far fetched and wild.

T247: But it sort of seems that this little touch of private humour is sort of a preparation for the fact somehow that the punch line of the real joke won't hurt too much.

C248: It won't be quite as, as shocking as I expect. I mean that I, I'm not going to be terribly shocked. It really is going to have something to it.

T248: M-hm. M-hm. You won't be un...you won't be totally unprepared for it. And it even will have its genuine humour to it.

C249: Yeah, I think there's something to it. I mean it, it just (Pause)...it kind of strengthens me. If you know what I mean.

T249: Sort of keeps you going on and it isn't a, isn't any knowledge of that sort. It's sort of a fore-knowledge of it.

T250: That's right. But there is an element of humour. (Pause)

T250: Well I guess our time is up. We can close on humorous terms.



(two days later)

C251: I'm out of breath from hurrying.

T251: (Laughing) Almost didn't get here, hm?

C252: I don't think I wanted to get here today. (T laughs) Really. I mean it. (Laughs).

T252: Some of the things in you were trying not to come, hm?

C253: M-hm. This is a bad day. A very bad day. This is a, a day when I just don't think, I just don't think I'm going to get any place. (M-hm) A sort of uh, wondering whether it's uh, it's really going to do much good. A uh, a day of doubt maybe or something. Just wondering, I just… just… resisting probably, only with a, with a great deal of logic behind it. (M-hm)...A uh, knowing all the time that all I had to do was walk to the telephone instead of, one of several things. And...there was this going over things and, and uh, being skeptical of the words. And I...it's just sort of, of wondering what good it's all going to do.

T253: Just seems kind of a...war within yourself in a sense in which at the present time at least the, the predominating feeling is, it is very doubtful that this'll help; 'it's doubtful if I'm getting anywhere'.

C254: Yeah, doubt, yeah. Yeah, there's just this sort of feeling of doubt there, the uh, the uh...yeah, I just sort of wonder.

T254: It is quite different, quite in contrast to the confidence that sometimes you've expressed, (That's right) that you feel is just the opposite side of the picture. Feel no confidence that this will, that you'll be able to work it out or work through to an-ything that you want. Is that...something of the feeling?

C255: No, that, that, that isn't quite it either. It's a uh...it's sort of more tied up with a, a...a doubt...no, I, I just can't quite say it exactly, a uh, (M-hm) a certain feeling of attainment for this once, that interested me, and I, I, I sort of liked it, I enjoyed it. Uh, I caught myself thinking that, that, that during these uh, sessions, uh, I've been sort of singing a song. Now that sounds uh, uh, vague, and, and, and uh, uh, not actually singing...sort of a song without any music. A, a uh, probably a kind of poem coming out. (M-hm) And uh, I like the idea, I mean it's just sort of came to me with-without anything built out of, of anything. And in...following that, it came, it came this other kind of, of, of a uh, feeling. Well, I s-s-found myself sort o-of asking myself uh, is that the shape that cases take? (M-hm) A uh, uh, it is possible that I-I-I am just verbalizing and, and, and uh, at times kind of become


intoxicated with my own, own, uh, uh, verbalizations? (M-hm) And then uh, following this, came, well, am I just taking up your time? Uh...then a doubt, a doubt...(M-hm) Then something else occurred to me. Uh, from whence it came I, I can't know, no actual logical kind of a sequence to the thinking. The thought struck me: We're doing bits, uh, overwhelmed or uh, doubtful, or, or uh, we can show concern or, or an-a-any uh, interest when, when the, when blind people uh, learn to read with their fingers, uh, Braille. And I don't know, it, it may be just sort of, of...it's all mixed up...it may be that's something that I'm uh, uh, ex-experiencing now.

T255: M-hm. Let's see if I can get some of that uh, uh, that sequence of feelings. First, sort of as though you're...and I gather that the first one is a fairly positive fee-ling...as though maybe you're kind of creating a poem here...uh, a song without music somehow but something that might be quite uh, quite creative, and then the, the feeling of a lot of skepticism about that. Maybe I'm just saying words, uh, just being carried off by words that I, that I speak, and maybe it's all a lot of baloney, really. Uh...and then a feeling that uh...perhaps you're almost learning a, a new type of experiencing which would be just as radically new as for a blind person to try to make sense out of what he feels with his fingertips.

C256: M-hm. M-hm. (Pause)

T256: I gather that another way of putting some of this is that...you can't have any assurance in your feeling of how to evaluate this, maybe it's sort of creative, maybe it's really something that's no good, maybe it's just words, maybe it's a brand new experience, and what, what value to place on it, is that...does that make any sense?

C257: No, I don't think value quite enters the picture yet. I, I, I, it's more of, of, of a feeling of, of uh, oh, I don't know, perhaps I'm not going about it the right way. Uh, uh...perhaps, uh, oh, perhaps I-I could be more, more uh, well, shall we say scientific in, in everything. And I sometimes think to myself, well, maybe we could go into this particular incident, or that particular...(M-hm) And then somehow when, when, when I come here, there is uh, that doesn't hold true, it's, it seems false. (M-hm) And, and uh, then there just seems to be this, this uh, this flow of, of, of words, which uh, somehow aren't forced, and...then, and then occasionally this doubt creeps in. Well, well...and it sort of takes form of a, maybe you're just making music. Uh, uh...

T257: Good deal of uncertainty as to whether you're going about this in the right way, or whether you should try to be more logical or more practical or...and then you find, when you really get here that the things that well up and out of you...a, is that any good? I mean, is that, does this poem have any meaning?

C258: But that's it, I mean, does it? I don't know. I, yet, I don't know, I, I, I uh... (Pause) And then of course there's this other, uh, thing of, of actually of...not really being concerned with my own problems now. Mean I go on and uh, about my, my uh,


affairs, sometimes being good, sometimes not being good and I mean it's just uh, doing the right thing, doing the wrong thing, but no actual uh, trying to work out, uh, certain problems.

T258: Seem to have lost any purposeful attempts to kind of figure out each uh, problem.

C259: That's right.

T259: M-hm. (Pause)

C260: Which of course has not been my way of what, I would, I would uh, really try to work things out uh, sometimes very destructively by, uh, shelving them, with a, uh, totally false kind of, of uh, uh, solutions.

T260: M-hm. At least you feel you have sort of taken care of each problem (Yeah) one way or (M-hm, m-hm) another. M-hm. (Pause)

C261: Perhaps that's why I'm, I'm doubtful today of, of this whole thing. Uh...because it's something that's not forced. And really I, I, I'm feeling that what I, I should do is, is sort of systematize the thing. A, a uh, oughta work harder and...

T261: Sort of a deep questioning as to what am I doing with a self that isn't, isn't pushing to get things done, solved? (Pause)

C262: And yet the, the fact that I, I really like this, other kind of, of thing, this, I don't know, call it a poignant feeling, I mean...I felt things that I never felt before. I like that, too. Uh, uh...maybe that's the way to do it. I, I just don't know today.

T262: M-hm. Don't feel at all sure, but you do know that you somehow have a real, a real fondness for this poem that is yourself. Whether it's the way to go about this or not. You don't know.

C263: And that thought struck me. I mean quite accidentally. I wasn't even thinking uh, about myself. And it gave me a terrific lift. Just a terrific lift. And, and I, I thought to myself, well, uh, saying, well, there's, there's just parts of me I'm never going to know. Uh, but uh, by golly I'm going to sing a song first. And it, it just gave me a, a terrific lift. (M-hm) And then of course today, I mean that was followed by this, well, I mean this completely, well, I mean how can I put it, how can I discuss a kind of sensate thing. I mean we just don't believe in things like that. (M-hm) It's, it's, its uh...

T263: After all, be practical...

C264: That's right. It's, it's just, I mean what, you're just fascinated with your words. It's uh, intangible, this, this uh...it just doesn't make good sense.


T264: It just couldn't quite be real or significant...in the world as it exists...and yet, uh, somehow you get, uh, and awful kick out of thinking that, out of feeling, as I get it, that more than thinking, out of feeling that, well, whatever all of the things in you are, at least there's a song in you, is that...?

C265: Yeah. A, a sort of, I'm, I'm stringing it together. (M-hm) It's, it's, it's, it's coming out of me.

T265: You're just composing the music.

C266: That's right, I...and then of course, coupled with that is the feeling that it isn't going anywhere, really.

T266: You don't make progress just by composing music.

C267: That's right. It made me feel, I don't know... (Laughs and gestures)

T267: Maybe you do. But at this point, you can't hardly believe that would be the way to make progress.

C268: Well, because there, there is the, the doubt or, or the uh, uh...really doubt all this is something else or uh, the feeling that well, ma-maybe I'm kidding myself. There's a big possibility of, of that.

T268: Maybe all of this, even the part that I get such a lift out of is just fooling myself.

C269: No, no, no, no. That was genuine. I liked that. (T: I see. That you don't ques-tion). That was really genuine. But, uh, I wonder...I mean, I wonder if, if, if one dares to wear that kind of a lift outside. I, I mean whether it, it uh, wouldn't perish.

T269: So that uh...you feel that fragile thing...is something that has a lot of reality. That you're not kidding about. Not kidding yourself about. But whether it offers anything that you can live by, that you can take outdoors with you...that's a question.

C270: That's it exactly.

T270: Sounds almost as though you were saying that that is a very real part of you. But whether that could be exposed to the gaze of the world, and so on...that brings up a pretty difficult question.

C271: No, I don't think it's a question of exposure. It's something. I wonder if...you really can have enough of that kind of thing that, to make it lasting, or not just a kind of a...

T271: Almost a...


C272: ...a jag, I, I mean.

T272: M-hm. Almost a, fears you'd have for it or what would happen to it within your-self. Isn't it just kind of a temporary think within yourself? It really, uh, is there enough to it...to uh...

C273: ...to withstand the other doubts. M-hm. I don't know. Then of course there's this, this, this other kind of, of a feeling that you have, I mean the question, am I going about this right? Am I, am I doing the right thing? You know it, it...I've read a great deal, and it seems to me, and I know if I wanted to, I mean, I could build up a, a, a perfect uh, uh, uh, psychological case history here. Some of it might be helpful. It really might. (M-hm) And I'm not doing it. I'm not doing that. I'm, I...

T273: So from your reading as well as from speculation, you know a number of different ways of going about this, a number of different things you might be doing; and why aren't you doing them? They might be uh, they might be helpful. Yet, just why are you going about it the way you do. I take it, that's the question.

C274: That's right. Then there's a...Alright, and I tell myself, now...well, the climate is such in here that I have to act in a certain way. And a certain part of me says, nuts, it isn't. I can act any way I want to act. (M-hm) And yet this is how it's coming out.

T274: In other words there's the feeling on the one hand, well, the climate there is such that nothing else but this kind of thing could come out, and then the realization that, well, dammit, I could do, I could handle it my way I wanted to there. And yet this is the thing that comes out.

C275: This is how it's coming out. And then, I mean I'm, I'm, I'm utterly confused if, is it something that is just happening, is it something that I want to happen this way? And yet I, I,...well, I'm that answers it-itself...ac-actually. If it's something that's just happening, then it's happening because I want it to happen. I-I'm sure.

T275: M-hm. Then you can start raising those questions and yet, really you're quite sure of the answer there. (Long Pause)

C276: Peggy takes a list on paper with her to the hospital when she goes. Things to be discussed. I think it's pretty wonderful. (Both laugh) The things I have to discuss somehow don't fit on the paper, they don't...things to be discussed.

T276: Kind of feel, that would be quite swell (Oh, yes) if you did have such things, hm? (Pause)

C277: Might be this is just resistance...keeping me from getting down to real things, too, I mean. (Pause)


T277: I'm not quite clear. Is it the feeling there, are you saying that, that you wonder how much you're keeping yourself from getting at some of the real things, because these others aren't real? Or isn't that last implied. I'm not quite sure.

C278: I, I think what I mean is this. How much is the, the sort of experience I have been having here a, a uh...I don't like the word we use here. I don't thing it quite fits. Uh, a, a, softening up process, maybe. A, a uh, a getting readiness, a, a, a preparation.

T278: M-hm. It may be this is just sort of a prepa-, I mean things you've experienced so far, is just sort of a preparatory experience for the, for the real things that there are to get at, hm?

C279: That's right. Maybe the re-the real things are absolutely nameless. Maybe we'll never get to the point. (M-hm) I... don't know. (Very long pause) I suppose, I think I've, I've reached a, a certain point with Peggy that's good on a, a uh, more or less rational plane. Uh, having, having had a, experienced the most awful convulsions that just...well, just awful...I've been tormented with the fear of, of, well, they, they might repeat, they could have repeated themselves. And of course when she was removed from the drugs entirely, I mean there is that, that, there is that possibility. It's very real. And, and yet uh, I think just this week, for the first time, I was able to actually tell myself, well, what if she did have a convulsion, really, what if she did? Barring, barring very serious ac-accidents of...what? ...if she recovers. And chances are, she won't have one.

T279: Sorta seemed as though you were able to see it at its worst until you see...

C280: ...That's right. And what if she did? I mean, what if she did?

T280: And then, just able to accept that possibility without uh...

C281: Well, without being so, so, so terribly devastated by the thing. It was just terrible. I-I-I mean, I-I was, I-I was able to, to, uh, sort of accept it as a purely physical thing, as, as something that might happen and still I, I feel probably won't happen.

T281: M-hm. That at least you felt, even if it did happen, you could probably accept it as something physical and not with the turmoil of feeling in yourself that it created at first. Is that...?

C282: Yes. Without being, being so, so, so terribly devastated by it, so, so uh, on, probably hysterical, I think.

T282: Felt as though it wouldn't take you to pieces in the way that it...

C283: ...That's right.


T283: ...did before.

C284: I think, I think I, I, I'm probably able to, I, I would be probably able to accept it as a, a physical manifestation of something else now. Not horrible as if...

T284: M-hm. It would seem as though it was something really organic, not just some horrible event.

C285: Well, I, uh, to restate it, I feel that it wouldn't be the, the, the kind of soul-shattering ex-experience; that it, it would be a, a uh, something that I would understand more...a, a, from the uh, neurological point of, of, of view...a, a uh, it would be just something that would happen. A, a, a...I think what has probably happened is, is that I, I have lost my fear, my, my uh...

T285: It would seem more like something with a cause and an effect, uh, not an emotio-nal experience that would tear you in pieces, and not something that would seem to just make Peggy something other than a person almost, is the feeling I get from the way you put it.

C286: Yes. I mean I, I...it's hard, hard to state and, and really I'm just trying. (Pause) Well, let's see. One thing happened. The, the, the uh...I felt a, a terrible shock, a, a sort of numbness first a, a uh, and then a terrible pity, an awful pity, and, and, at the same time a, a, a kind of, of revulsion. And yet you know, it was all tied up with me. (M-hm) See, what I felt...

T286: M-hm. So that the shockingness and the numbness and the deep pity and also the revulsion...is it that all of those were, were in you rather than being uh, primarily concern for her? Is that uh...is that overstated?

C287: No, I don't think that's overstating it. It, it might be underscoring a bit more. But, something, I mean...

T287: Like that, something of that quality in it. M-hm. M-hm.

C288: ...very much like that, that's right. (Pause) Then of course I, I set myself to find out, I mean, what happened, and why those things happened. I mean I, I know a little bit about impulses and one thing and another, and I felt, well, maybe that'll straighten me out. Maybe that'll make me more objective. And it helped. Uh...but then there developed this awful anxiety. This, uh, sort of a nameless fear, a, a kind of dread, whether she would be late...I, I mean I was just... Well, I guess, you see, that was turned inward. (M-hm) A, a...

T288: Almost a feeling as though those emotions had to do with you, and that they wer-e ...


C289: ...That's right. It did. (M-hm) I, I think it's only now that I'm, I'm...I think the fact that I was finally able to, to uh, say to myself, well, so what? I mean, no, chances are, are, are, are so much in our favour that nothing serious would happen. (M-hm) Point one, point two. If she is going to have a convulsion, nothing will stop it And there's not that awful, awful uh, sense of, of uh, it just can't happen. (M-hm) There's a, a...

T289: ...Sort of given up trying to control it in your emotions to prevent it from happeni-ng ......M-hm...

C290: ...That's right...That a, a rather a, there's a certain feeling of easiness that uh, that it probably isn't going to happen.

T290: M-hm. That in reality the situation isn't too likely, but I gather that the, the really significant change though is in your own feeling about it even if it should.

C291: Yeah.

T291: Set aside two times next week?

C292: M-hm. (Arrangements made for next appointments)


THE CASE OF MRS. OAK/BAFO 7th Interview

(Five days later)

T293: Not quite as cold out as it was.

C293: No...I've got a cold. Oh, dear. It would be nice to know what to talk about (Counselor laughs). Sort of getting to be a little bit ashamed of myself on this score. Uh... I'm experiencing something new that might be well to verbalize. A, a uh, new for me uh, in, in that uh, uh, I'm experiencing a, a certain consciousness of it, a, a uh, a kind of, of uh, I'm afraid of labels, uh, a kind of, of, of hostility, and, and I said, I maen, that’s in quotes, a, a uh, letting through of resentment...uh, which I'm sure has been there but I, in, in trying to verbalize what, what I'm, I'm conscious of, it, it seems to come through as a kind of release, as, as, as, as though a, a, uh, uh, certain uh, certain something had been lifted in some places. 'Cause it comes out and uh, disappears and uh, I'm actually not disturbed by it, I'm not, I mean I pick up from, from exactly where I, I uh, was, and I sense it as, as a, a kind of something pushing through. Uh, course it doesn't make for very good face to face uh, kind of, uh, dealing.

T294: It doesn't make for smoothness, but I get the feeling of, attitudes of resentment and of being against, and so on that...similar to the ones that have probably always been there, but now they're pushing up through to express them, and yet when they're out, you feel as though they really are out and then you pick up and go on. Is that...?

C294: That's right. I mean, there's no, no uh...

T295: No hangover left is that...?

C295: That's right. And uh, it, it, it's as though that somehow something within me uh, pushes out and, and uh, and makes room for something that follows. Which is, is not...uh, at all bad. I mean, it's uh...I mean, I don't want to confuse it with labels, you see, in, in my uh, own mind.

T296: A part of the experience is that somehow expressing some of those feelings kind of makes room for the next step, as it were, is that uh...?

C296: Something like that. I'm not conscious of a next step. (M-hm) I'm, I'm just conscious that I'm not bothered by it.

T297: Almost as though it is a part of a flow and flow continues uh... There's more to it than just the expression of these uh, antagonistic feelings.


C297: That's right. (M-hm) There's no uh, no after feeling of, of uh, of, of guilt or, or probably wanting to continue the, the uh,...i-it's just a push forward. But as I said, it, it...doesn't make for good uh, uh, feeling, good...it probably does me good.

T298: Don't think it's part of Dale Carnegie's Book on How to (No) Win Friends or (No) maybe to Influence People.

C298: No. No. But then I do have a feeling that there's, there's just a feeling of, of, that this is something that is taking place within me and it's, it's a, a uh, it's a kind of healthy thing. A uh, letting out of, of uh...something that is actually me.

T299: Seems as though part of the real you is finding expression and the whole experience has nothing whatsoever to do with labels and words, and so on. It just isn't on that level at all. Is that uh...?

C299: Well, I...in speaking I could probably say, oh, well, this is uh, just uh, because I mean I'm trying desperately hard to know myself, I mean I, I, it's uh, repressions being lifted. But as soon as I say that then that isn't, isn't it at all. It's, it's, it's not what I actually experience.

T300: M-hm. (Long Pause)

C300: In, in the past I mean I haven't been without my, my uh, uh, oh, kinds of combativeness. But there's uh, I'm, I'm sure I've always excused it and I, uh, uh, found justification for it, and this is uh, sort of without any uh, oh, justification. That doesn't seem important, uh...

T301: M-hm. Somehow the difference that the earlier expressions had to be justified and you could justify them...uh, the present ones are different in that they just exist. They don't need to be justified. Is that...?

C301: M-hm. That's right. And I would feel sorry for myself...feel sorry for myself, and also don't feel uh, so sorry for the person whom I've, I've uh...uh, of course it's mostly my husband because he's probably handiest for that kind of thing.

T302: Get almost the feeling that it's a...it's a good kind of experience from this, from your feeling about it. Is that uh...?

C302: I really do. I, I mean uh...I think you summed it up when you said there's no hangover...that it is...all my life I've, I've been suffering from hangovers, and I'm, I'm sure...It's probably a passing thing, a, a uh, maybe a step towards something else, but as, as I said I'm not conscious yet of, of the next step. (Pause) On my part it doesn't create any tensions at all...just...(Pause).

T303: Just relief which doesn't involve any tensions or concern about yourself, or tensions or concern about the person toward whom the feeling is, is directed. Is that...?


C303: Well, it's mostly toward myself. I mean I, I'm a little sorry. You, you don't like to be un-unkind. Well, it isn't being unkind, but you don't like to uh...well, one would prefer probably not to uh, feel the, the uh, need for that kind of ... thing. (Long pause) And then of course right, right at, at present I'm terrifically aware of my husband's tensions, and uh, my insight into the thing is that it's, it's uh, it's a kind of ego involvement. He, he hasn't discussed it, but a, a uh ... probably doesn't know it. But I, I sort of, of have the, the uh, feeling that he's terribly concerned about what I might be saying. (M-hm) I mean it's, it's a uh...

T304: Feel that what you say here may concern him a good deal, whether he knows it or not.

C304: Yes. Uh, that's my, my, my uh, well, again feeling my, my uh, that there's a kind of, of ego uh, in-volvement. (Pause) In fact I, I, I almost feel that it wouldn't be possible for him to understand that what I say concerns me. (M-hm.) Uh, just me.

T305: You doubt if he could really comprehend the fact that you're working on yourself.

C305: M-hm. What's more, perfectly delighted with working on myself. There's just sort of no uh, uh, no need right now for uh, for the outside props...no, no uh...But his tensions are great. And yet actually there's uh, much less opportunity for, for quarreling because of, of, of this something that I experience where things just comes out, it is no more and that's that.

T306: M-hm. Sounds as though there, nothing remains to haggle over. It's been uh, it's just out.

C306: As far as I'm concerned it's out. (Pause) I, find myself right now, uh, confronted with the uh, thought that uh, I, this is a pretty bad spot. Uh, but I almost don't care. Uh, sort of, i-ideas; I, I'd really like to get at them and, and, and take sort of a, a quick look, and uh...and then I'd think probably they'd be the same kind of a feeling...out-what? I know it's there.

T307: I'm not quite sure that's clear to me. There're some elements in you, you think...you're sort of kind of in a bad spot, and you'd like to take a quick look at them, though they were there...I'm not quite clear from what you say whether you feel that would, you'd just like to kind of look at them quickly and they would remain unchanged or...

C307: Well, I'm not quite sure what would happen. (M-hm) I think, I think there would be a kind of following of the same pattern as I have been feeling. (M-hm) A, a uh, they're there, uh, out, no sense of, of guilt, no uh, uh...

T308: M-hm. And if you took a look at them, they'd be sort of out here in the situation and then that would be alright.


C308: Yeah. Not gone. I think they'd probably still be there, but uh...there's a desire to find the, a, a, a uh, kind of lever which would let them go out.

T309: M-hm. What could you do that would let them push through the way some of these other feelings have, is that...?

C309: Yeah. M-hm. (Pause) Take for example what happens. Uh...I don't think I, I have a, a uh, a very adequate family feeling. I don't think I, I uh, do if, if I am to feel like uh, people say that you should feel, that uh, your uh, your family comes first, and the work with-within the uh, family unit for the family...I don't think I have that feeling. I, I, I just don't think I uh...

T310: Just sort of allegiance to the family as a wife and mother...

C310: ...That's right, I don't think...

T311: ...You just don't feel that very strongly (No) or very realistically.

C311: No. Well, I suppose for, for uh, for good uh, sound reasons that might be uh, important. (Pause) But I, I...I don't know if I can say this right but I feel that I'm, I'm, I'm far more preoccupied with, with uh, with myself in relation to, to, to other things; say, (Pause)...Look, I do things for the family. Uh...to avoid pressure, to uh, uh, uh, avoid arguments not because it gives me any satisfaction at all 'cause it doesn't, just doesn't.

T312: You do things for them to avoid negative uh, results affecting you, and to avoid certain things...you do things for the family. But not because there's a positive uh, concentration of, of interest on them. Is that uh... something...?

C312: It's something like that. It's something like that. I think uh, I think my attitude where Peggy's concerned is more, is more uh, uh, positive. Uh, primarily because I think there's a, a better sense of give and take, a, a uh...the, the uh...probably a feeling of pure, actual demand.

T313: Are you saying there that because not so much is demanded, you can give more in that relationship?

C313: I think so. And...because it's a more natural kind of, of uh, thing, a, a uh, a uh, feeling that there really isn't anything imposed. That, that when I'm, I'm doing, I'm doing because I, I want to.

T314: Don't have to do anything, so frequently you want to do.


C314: Yeah. M-hm. I sometimes ask myself, what, what, what in the hell is this thing I'm feeling? (M-hm) I, I don't know. It's uh...apparently it exists. Apparently it, it uh, does uh, certainly uh, uh...seems to. People talk about it.

T315: Seems as though any knowledge you have of it would be simply as an observer. Certainly not from the point of view of experiencing it.

C315: That's right. I just...and, and only in so far as it causes conflict; as it makes me un-uncomfortable...uh, I certainly don't feel any need for it. I, I mean it's, it's a, a, a uh...I don't have any great desire for this family feeling for myself personally. (M-hm). But insofar as it is a source of, of uh, of conflict at home...uh, I want this.

T316: You're saying there that to avoid certain unpleasant feeling within yourself, you undertake certain ways of behaving and so on, but that as far as any real desire to, to feel this allegiance to the family unit, and so on, you don't have it. At least have very little of it.

C316: I think that's put rather mildly. I, I, it's making me look too good. No, I don't think that's quite it. I mean I...it's, it's a, it's a purely selfish kind of thing that I feel. I feel that, that it's, it's a kind of, 'oh, for God's sake, let me alone'. Uh, but since, since I've, uh, I find myself in, in a, a uh, situation where nobody's going to let me alone, then uh, m-m-maybe I uh, maybe I, show a little bit of it, but there's no, no, no real desire for it. I mean it, it's, if I had a choice, if I, I, I could make a, a free choice...I uh, there's probably other things that I might want. (M-hm) You see, I mean it's not a picture of somebody trying to be good.

T317: But because the demands on you say 'give a little bit',and so on, but if you really had your choice it would be, for gosh sakes, leave me be. Don't make any demands on me. (M-hm) Just let me alone.

C317: That's right. But maybe what I'm saying is, in essence is that uh, the only way out for me would be to go and live a, on some mountain top. I don't know.

T318: To go and be a hermit, hm?

C318: Which is impossible. So...something else...(Pause). And of course the question follows, if people do have these uh, family feelings and they don't seem to detract from them as personalities, uh, why is it that I don't have them? Uh, what, what uh, happens, what blocks the development? (Pause) I'm not su-I, I have, I suspect...

T319: M-hm. As to why you don't have those feelings, you don't see a glimmer.

C319: M-hm...not in the least. (Pause) Think a partial explanation might be that I don't feel the need, but why don't I feel the need when all the world seems to feel the need? (Long pause) There's always this conflict...of really, uh, part of me not


wanting to make a go of things, actually not wanting to. And yet uh, not wanting to be destructive and actually break things up. (M-hm) Uh, followed with a, a uh, a kind of fear, well, what the devil would I do. Uh, again you see tha-there's that, that el-element of not really being, being uh, uh, very noble about it.

T320: M-hm. You feel as though the concerns are really quite self-centered. There is a fear as to what might, just what would you do if things...broke up and yet (C: M-hm) on the other hand the feeling that, I don't really want to make this family go.

C320: Mmmm. A feeling that, that I feel uh, I'd really be sort of better off. And yet of course knowing, knowing I'm not going to be doing anything about it.

T321: Just sort of a hesitant feeling, I might be better off if it did break up perhaps, but then a quick feeling of knowing you're not going to take any such step.

C321: That's right. Just something like that (Pause) But again, not because I wouldn't want to, a part of me wouldn't want to. Rea-really didn't want to. That's shocking really.

T322: I'm sorry, I missed enough of that so I'm not quite...

C322: Oh, well, I, I mean, still i-in knowing, this, that going back to, to knowing that I, I probably won't do anything. (T: M-hm) And, and yet being perfectly conscious that I, I-I-I, part of me actually wants (T: Think I...) to do that.

T323: M-hm. That is a very real part of you. (C: Yeah) Even though it may not play any part in your behavior, nevertheless it is a part of you that feels, like, just as soon or perhaps would rather break it up.

C323: For years I felt that, that uh, that I was living in a, in, in a kind of state of uh, probation. Uh, never accepted uh, it was perhaps pretty rugged...uh, I sort of feel that that is past. A, a uh, uh, I sort of don't have a, a uh, a uh...well, the only, the only way I can, I can describe it is that I, I uh, I...I turned more and more inward, until uh, uh, I found some satisfactions within myself.

T324: So that you went through a period of feeling very much on trial or subject to approval, and that lack of full acceptance was awfully hard to take, but now when that, uh, on-probation feeling, now somehow you don't care too much one way or the other because you've found satisfactions inside.

C324: It's something like that, yeah. Especially when you've been growing in, with, within-in for several years. It's, it, it's not new, it's, it's a uh...actually I think from there, it, it's complete and total failure. Uh...maybe and marriage, I-I-I could have made would have been, I-I don't know. Uh...


T325: You're not sure about the generalization but at least you feel that this marriage for you just has none of the elements of success in it.

C325: M-m-m. Oh, it might have a few. I don't know. I-I don't uh...but there certainly isn't any fun to it. There uh, uh...And I feel that's important. I-I really do.

T326: If there has been any possible element, fun hasn't been one of them...

C326: That's right. Certainly not. Been very grim and very serious. Too damn grim. (Pause) Course I haven't done my part in, in uh, in uh, that. I, I, I haven't met uh, certain demands. I don't know whether I ever will.

T327: Think it sounds to me as though you're saying...I haven't done my part, and I haven't met certain demands, but it's not that I feel regretful about that. I'm not quite sure but that seemed to be in your...

C327: No. I don't think I feel regretful at, at all. (Pause) I think uh, I think what, I think most concerns me is if I had it to do over again I wouldn't do it. Uh...but that's just uh, kidding ones-self. Then I, I think I sort of uh, pick up the uh, feeling that, sort of, well uh, life is, is just a series of todays and, and uh, so I'll take today. Uh, but I certainly don't have these qualities...th-this family feeling, the uh, uh, feeling of being a good wife. I just don't have them and as I, I'm no-I'm ter...I find myself being terribly annoyed with, with, with being in a, a situation where it's expected of me. (M-hm) And on that score I don't feel inadequate, really. It's, it's, it's a strange feeling. It's a, well, it's probably one of those dark corners where there's something wrong with me. (M-hm) I just feel sort of, I don't know, like...

T328: ...Sort of it isn't only that, that you feel, well, I'm not a good wife in the sense that that is usually understood, but there's also the feeling, that isn't particularly what I want to be either. I mean I just don't... the fact that I'm not doesn't make me feel inadequate or (No) as though I've fallen short of my goal.

C328: No. That may very well be because for some reason or other I can't probably evaluate it. I, I'm, I'm not trying (M-hm)...I'm, I'm only conscious of the, the uh, the uh, of how I feel and, and, and how it is thought I should feel.

T329: M-hm. So your way of looking at it may conceivably be mistaken but you're simply trying to say how you do feel about it, is that uh...?

C329: Yeah. (Pause) Then of course, always, always followed is really, I mean a, a really sincere uh, desire not to really hurt anyone else.

C330: M-hm. (Pause) Sounds as though there you're expressing a very positive attitude that you feel that you don't want to cause harm or hurt to anyone. (Yes) And that that runs pretty deep in you feeling. (Pause)


C330: The feeling that it would be very, wouldn't it have been very nice if I were that kind of a person. I mean with a good family sense of...(M-hm). And how it would, it would have probably been very nice.

T331: M-hm. If you had happened to be a different kind of a person, then think how nice that would have been (Yeah) for various people concerned. I see our time's up.

(Arrangements made for next appointment)



(Two days later)

(General conversation first)C332: Well, I'm nicely filled with tension. Nicely so. And I don't know why. Just maybe

we can work some of 'em out. I haven't the slightest idea. Just ...! And I really don't know why. I'm just sort of going over it in my mind.Nothing really concrete that I can put my finger on. Just...

T332: It's sort of as though something had been mounting inside you that makes for a lot of tension.

C333: An uneasiness, a feeling of apprehensions, a typical symptom of something. What?

T333: ...A little bit of fear, but, but what about?

C334: That's right.

T334: What about?

C335: I don't know. I don't know. I haven't noticed the feeling for some time now. And it's sort of hit me. I'm not sure why. (About a minute pause) I, I actually think of all of the feelings, experiences, the, the...

T335: (Counselor develops nosebleed. Mentions it.) I guess I'll have to excuse myself.

C336: All right.

T336: (Pause while counselor endeavors to cope with nosebleed) If it doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother me but...

C337: It doesn't bother me but you should probably take care of it. (Counselor leaves for a while) Nose-bleed has a way of being a very directive kind of thing, doesn't it?

T337: (Both laugh) Gives you very little choice.

C338: Well, I can go back. It was your nose bleed and not mine. (Both laugh) I might have felt some relief from a, a nose bleed. Well, I really think I want to talk something of, about this feeling that I, I occasionally have of...the only way I can describe it is a, a feeling of apprehension, a, a, an impending kind of thing. And, and I have an idea I know what it is. I'm not sure. I, I think it is, it's a cover up for something else that, that I probably don't want to think of. But it's a very unpleasant thing. I'd like to work it out. I'd like to find a way of, of ridding myself


of it. It's, it's entirely unpleasant. It's, it's mixed up with a, I don't know, a kind of primitive feeling of, of a kind of prophesizing a doom or ill-luck or...

T338: It's as though this feeling that something dire is just around the corner, may be a way almost of...may be something that in itself prevents you or makes it unnecessary for you to look at this something or other that you may be hiding from yourself. Is that it?

C339: Yes. I think that's a possibility. A, a...I, I think it's something within myself that takes that form, that...I don't like it. I don't like it at all. That's it.

T339: Not a pleasant feeling to feel that doom is just ahead. Possibly. (Long Pause)

C340: Of course it might be possible that I actually want something of that sort. (Pause)

T340: Some kind of a dire result?

C341: Well if it's put that way, no. (Pause)

T341: Perhaps, perhaps this is what you're suggesting, that there might be a possibility that you want this thing that you also dread. Is that...?

C342: Well it, it just seems to me that, that coupled with this feeling of, of apprehension, there might be a little element of anticipation the, the, this, this other tightening, this heaviness might serve some kind of a purpose, need too.

T342: I get it, you experience an anticipation that's almost a desire, almost a favorable feeling toward whatever this is and at the same time this tightening up of appre-hension is also very real in regard to perhaps the same thing. Is that...

C343: There's nothing favorable. I can't say that it's favorable It's, it's more, more a, a kind of automatic thing, a, a something that just happens, that just... (Pause)

T343: Are you saying there that it's more anticipation in the sense that something just seems as though it's inevitable, it's going to happen. Is that the flavor of it?

C344: A little more like that. A little more like that. I'm always quite able to rationalize the thing. I mean I'm, I'm beginning to try to understand it. And, and I think if, if I can understand it, it'll certainly be a key to something important.

T344: Regardless of what it is you feel pretty sure that it does have real significance, in that it really would perhaps open some doors.

C345: It means something. (Long pause) I think whatever it is it's pretty deep. Because, I mean, while it has this surface kind of, of manifestation which I can describe, it, it


seems to me to...and I go back, maybe if I could find a way of restating that...a kind of, of primitive sense of, of kind of a prophecy of evil.

T345: Contains somehow a sense of some very basic forecast of doom or of evil.

C346: Something like that. To which of course I can't subscribe at all. Which again brings me to the thought that it's, it's a cover up, it's a something I'm using for my own complete...as a way of completely deceiving myself. So I'm, I'm fully capable of being able...or can recognize a genuine danger and cope with it. There's a, a build up, a...I'm looking for it I'm sure.

T346: Seems to have nothing to do with, with reality or with your intellect. And that's one of the reasons it makes you feel it may hide something quite, quite different. At any rate there, there must be causes for it, reasons for it. (Long pause)

C347: Well I guess we'll have to leave it there.

T347: Feel as though for the present, at least, you're unable to track it down to...

C348: That's right, that's right. But I'm aware of it. Maybe there's something there that...maybe it'll pop some of these days. (About a two minute pause) You know over in this area of, of oh, sexual disturbance, I have a feeling that I'm beginning to discover that it's pretty bad, pretty bad. I'm finding out that, that I'm bitter, really. Damn bitter. I...and I'm not turning it back in, into myself. I could, I could say it's me. But I'm probably not ready for that. I'm, I'm surprised at how, how very bitter I am.

T348: When you say it's something that's pretty bad I judge you mean that it's something you really don't like in yourself, but there is this feeling of just intense bitterness, something of a very emotional bitterness. And it's, it's not turned your way, it's turned out.

C349: I don't, I can't even bring myself to say that it's pretty bad concerning me. (Long pause) Well, I, I think what I, I...I probably feel is a certain e-element of "I've been cheated". (C's voice is very tight and her throat chokes up) And I've, I've covered up very nicely, to the point of consciously not caring. But I'm, I'm sort of amazed to find that in this practice of, what shall I call it, a kind of sublimation that right under it...again words...there's a, a kind of passive force that's, it's pas-...it's very passive, but at the same time it's just kind of murderous.

T349: So there's the feeling, "I've really been cheated. I've covered that up and seem not to care and yet underneath that there's a kind of a, a latent but very much present bitterness that is very, very strong.”

C350: It's very strong. I...that I know. It's terribly powerful.


T350: Almost a dominating kind of force.

C351: Of which I am rarely conscious. Almost never.

T351: Just catch glimpses of it at times.

C352: M-hm. I've just recently, I mean it's...oh, I, from time to time sense a kind of, of resistance about it. And, well because I don't particularly like that kind of feeling I was always able to turn it off. It's just recently that I've discovered this other kind of, of thing. It just seems that under the curve, so to speak, there's this other very strong kind of a feeling. It's...it isn't explosive at all.

T352: Much stronger and calmer than that.

C353: Yeah. It's, it's actually a kind of passive resistance. A, a... has, has elements of, of...well the only way I can describe it, it's a kind of murderous thing, a, a, but without violence.

T353: You've had feelings of bitterness before but those were something you could turn off and so on, this is rather different in being such a murderous kind of hatred, of such a quiet but powerful sort.

C354: And I'm not ready to turn it in.

T354: It sounds as though you sort of feel that perhaps you should turn it in but that you definitely are not ready to.

C355: That's probably it. (Pause) It's more like a, a feeling of wanting to get even first. Which is actually not like me. Not on any one particular...

T355: This isn't a desire to get revenge for any specific thing. It's just a very pervasive feeling of, "I'll pay the world back". It isn't at all like yourself as you think of yourself.

C356: That's right. And of course I won't pay back, but I'd like to. I really would like to.

T356: You know you won't carry it out. But boy, how you would like to make things suffer.

C357: No, it isn't even a question of, of suffering. I think that what, what I'd really like to do is relieve this thing and that is, just sort of turn it loose.

T357: M-hm. In other words, it isn't so much what would happen to the object of the feeling. That really isn't it. It's that you'd like to let it loose from yourself.

C358: M-hm.


T358: Vindictiveness, and a murderous feeling.

C359: And I, I go back to saying, "I'm not ready to turn it in". I'm not ready to, to accept it as my doing. I know that.

T359: Are you saying there that at this point this force just exists. You don't feel ready to say, "This is my feeling, I am responsible for it". Is that the way you mean?

C360: It's my feeling. But it's still coupled with this feeling of, it's been done to me.

T360: I see. It no more than balances the scale.

C361: It has been done to me.

T361: "I've taken it and now I'd like to loose it on (M-hm) somebody else".

C362: Not necessarily somebody. I mean just...

T362: ...I didn't know quite how to finish that. You'd like to loose it.

C363: That's right.

T363: Taken it and now you'd like to give it. That's more what you mean isn't it?

C364: I'm not ready to accept the idea that it's my problem for me to work out and...

T364: This is not anything for me to resolve. This is something that happened to me and which creates these feelings, period.

C365: Right now that's how it is. It's sort of, now can I sum it up, a, a kind of gyp. (Pause) And again the feeling is, is not of wanting to hurt anyone, to, to create conflicts. It's, it's kind of abstract thing of just sort of wanting to kick back at life.

T365: M-hm. "I've been gyped and gyped until it's piled up feeling that I'd like to let loose. Not on someone. I just feel murderous toward life and what it's done to me".

C366: Yes. But I just don't feel sorry for myself. Which is strange. (Pause) I think this feeling that I have of, "Let me alone. I don't give a damn," is the politely civilized expression of, of this violence. Because if, if it came through un, unchecked it would probably be "I do give a damn and that might be very bad for you".

T366: In other words, "Let me alone because I don't care" really has the meaning "Let me alone because I do have feeling about this. And if it came out it might really hurt".


C367: It might be bad. It might be bad for all of us. (Over a minute and half pause) Well the best piece of the puzzle seems to fit in, doesn't it?

T367: Some patterns seem to fit.

C368: It begins to shape up. (Long pause) Almost as strong as the feeling of bitterness that I have is the feeling that I'm not going to accept it as my problem and be noble about it.

T368: To hell with taking it all inwardly and being very lofty about it.

C369: M-hm. This hurt feeling has been done to me. A certain part of me says, "Of course it's your problem. It happens to yourself. It's your problem to solve, to work on, etcetera, etcetera".

T369: There is a small murmur of that sort. But that isn't the way you feel about it. This is not a problem you created or that you are responsible for. This is something that happened to you.

C370: M-hm. (Over a minute pause) Of course now that it's out it really isn't so terribly shocking.

T370: Much less awful expressed (M-hm)

C371: That's right.

T371: Now the case of murder is out, it doesn't seem nearly as bad, does it?

C372: That's right. No it doesn't seem so bad at all. Maybe there wouldn't even be too much pleasure in wanting to take a slice out of life.

T372: Possible that it might not be as satisfying as it has seemed that it would, (M-hm) to get back at life.

C373: But on the other hand neither will the "let me alone, I don't care" bit of rationa-lization work quite so well.

T373: Facing this reduces the effectiveness of that.

C374: M-hm. That's right. Which puts me on a spot.

T374: Rather the reverse of the proverb in that you seem to be experiencing, there's no gain without some loss.

C375: M-hm.


T375: I think it's time to call it quits.



(Five days later)

C376: I don't know. I wish we could play checkers today. (Both laugh)

T376: Play a little tit-tat-toe.

C377: Yeah. I don't know. Nothing, you know, just nothing. A block.

T377: You'd like to do something else today.

C378: That's right. Nothing. Just...I don't know. No real resistance, no ... just a kind of blank.

T378: Nothing pulls back and nothing pulls forward.

C379: Might, let's see, might take some stock and see what'll happen. I think I'm, I'm interested in something that I find that I am doing here. I'm extremely interested in feelings. As, I recall, I, I speak in terms of feelings. That's sort of a new thing for me. I, I...it's, it's, it's as though I don't quite trust any, any kind of rationalization that I, I can find. That I'm, I'm primarily concerned with whatever it is I'm calling feelings. And that there ... again get this sense of touch, of something a little more tangible than, than a mere verbalization. I don't know how much sense it makes.

T379: You're intrigued by the fact that it almost seems you're trying to touch and feel your feelings here. And for some reason that you're trying to do that rather than deal with intellectual ideas or verbalizations.

C380: Yeah. It's something like that. I mean, in taking stock that comes to me now. A, a...to me I, I think it's, it's interesting in that we, we have more or less come to discuss feelings. We, we...and yet it seems to me that that is, is what I'm, I'm primarily interested in, in, these feelings. And they're something other than, than what I'm, that what I'm exactly able to verbalize.

T380: M-hm. It's these things that normally you tend to distrust, here you're examining and experiencing and any attempt to even describe at the verbal level what's going on doesn't seem to really quite carry what, what you're doing. Is that...?

C381: That's right. That's right.

T381: Something other than ordinarily belongs in words.

C382: That's right. (Pause) I really think it's something we know very little about, actually. I mean, that's my, ...I...


T382: Not only part of the unexplored territory of your life but it probably is of other lives.

C383: I...m-hm. At least there isn't any kind of, of satisfactory label. Now I'm also conscious of, I think it's interesting and at times I find myself being rather objectively interested in this whole thing. A certain sense of rhythm that as, as yet I haven't, haven't explained. But it, it's something, it seems to me to hit a, an avenue, or a peak or a depth or something to get in some place that I, unconsciously seem to go through a certain pattern of rhythm. I haven't explained that, just a thought that comes out.

T383: But when you do...I think this is what you're saying...when you do get into one of those really meaningful aspects of experience it just seems as though some type of, somehow orderly process has proceeded it. Is that...?

C384: Yes. I mean I, I afterwards recall a kind of rhythm, a rhythmic kind of force that...and of course I, I can't isolate that. I can't see what it is.

T384: Looking back on certain of these experiences you can see that rhythmic force just sort of leading up to this point that was achieved.

C385: M-hm. Quite...it's interesting. I, I may...

T385: And you sort of stand off and look at yourself that way in that situation. It's an interesting process that you're seeing.

C386: Yeah. It gives me a certain confidence, a, a, a kind of, of knowledge that this kind of thing works.

T386: Is it just sort of the feeling, 'something significant is happening'?

C387: That's right. That's right. That is...and it is, it, it's tied up with the sense of rhythm and, and, and the, the, the... I wish I could verbalize it. I wish I could, I mean it, it...I'm sure that there's something scientific about it. But there's a relationship between this physical sense of touch and a certain force. Now, go tell somebody that.

T387: It might sound quite ridiculous if you try to intellectualize it but nevertheless there's a very real conviction that there's the feeling, there's the touching of those feelings, there's a pulsating force that somehow is operative.

C388: That's right. (Very long pause) I think I've become more, shall we say acceptant of this feeling we talked about last week, this streak of being pretty damn bitter. I still have the feeling I'm still not ready to do anything about it. I just sort of admit to it. Not much more than that.


T388: It doesn't seem quite so bad to own it but the notion of doing something about it or going on from there, that doesn't have any particular appeal at this point.

C389: That's right. Appeal is the word, probably. I, I, I just don't...I wouldn't say I don't want to do anything about it or that I won't do anything about it but just right now I'm just not going to do anything about it. Just not ready for it. I think it's probably the answer to a lot of, of things, the, the, reason for a great many things. I think the, the reason I, I probably can't quite face doing anything is because at this point it, it looks pretty doggone hopeless, pretty, pretty big, pretty confusing. Where does one start?

T389: How in the world could one, could one do anything about such a big and long-lasting thing?

C390: Yeah.

T390: And one rooted so deep.

C391: Certainly the...there's no answer for it in platitudes (Very long pause, several minutes) You know this is kind of goofy, but I've never told anyone this (nervous laugh) and it'll probably do me good. For years, oh, probably from early youth, from seventeen probably on I, I have had what, what I have come to call to myself were 'flashes of sanity'. I've never told anyone this (another embarrassed laugh) wherein really I feel sane. And, and, and pretty much aware of life. And, and always with a, a terrific kind of, of concern and sadness of, of how far away, how far astray that we have actually gone. And while I've, I've always gotten something out of...I mean they're momentary things really uh, and, and (word lost) but I'm...it's, it's just a feeling once in awhile of, of, of finding myself a whole kind of person in, in a terribly chaotic kind of world.

T391: It's been fleeting and it's been infrequent, but there have been times when it seems the whole you is functioning and feeling in the world, a very chaotic world to be sure,...

C392: That's right. And I mean, and knowing actually knowing how far astray we, we've, we've gone from, from being whole healthy people. And of course one, one, one doesn't talk in those terms.

T392: A feeling that it wouldn't be safe to talk about the singing you...

C393: Where does that person live?

T393: Almost as if there was no place for such a person to, to exist.


C394: Of course, you know, that, that, that makes me...now wait a minute...that probably explains why I'm primarily concerned with feelings here. That's probably it.

T394: Because that whole you does exist with all your feelings. Is that it, you're more aware of feelings?

C395: That's right, it's not, it doesn't reject feelings and...that's it.

T395: That whole you somehow lives feelings instead of somehow pushing them to one side.

C396: That's right. (Pause) I suppose from the practical point of view it could be said that what I ought to be doing is solving some problems. Maybe that sums up the whole thing.

T396: I wonder if this will distort your meaning, that from a hard headed point of view, you ought to be spending time thinking through specific problems. But you wonder if perhaps maybe you aren't on a quest for this whole you and perhaps that's more important than a solution to the day to day problems.

C397: I think that's it. I think that's it. That's probably what I mean (Long Pause) I think, in fact I'm quite sure, that the relationship between Peggy and I has improved greatly. It's easier, much easier. And, of course, I find myself being far less concerned than I have been, which is of course good and she I'm sure feels that. And I, I sense a, a, a feeling on her part of being less dependant. And probably because of it a, a, even a stronger feeling for me, a, a,...of course it's probably absurd to say these things but that's the...but certainly less dependent and at the same time a, a, well what, what probably has happened is that she feels more secure.

T397: Sounds as though you were both finding it a more comfortable kind of relationship (That's right) and somehow more real even though she's not as dependent. (C: M-hm.) More perhaps the relationship between two separate individuals. Is that...?

C398: Well you know, I'm, I'm, I'm more conscious that she's probably seeing me as, as a person. I mean such little things they, little off-hand things which she has never done before. (Pause) There's still, there's a great deal of tension between Peggy and her father, a great deal. They work themselves up over nothing at all. And, and if, if it weren't so serious, it would really be sort of funny, over nothing. This (Pause)...and I think I understand it but understanding doesn't help this thing. It's something that they'll have to work out for themselves.

T398: That is you can understand some of the reasons why they get so tensed up. But you also realize that you can't do something about that. That's their problem. Is that what you're saying?


C399: Well I...no. Of course I can probably do something about it. Just exactly what, I don't know yet. But it...I mean, I do know that (Pause)...well I might say that I, I know that for a real solution what Peggy's father would have to do would be to simply accept her as she happens to be at that particular moment. And, and that she in turn would, would have to know that well there wasn't very much she could do to change how her father felt about this. (Long Pause) And I suppose in time maybe there are, there will be many things that I can do. Right now the, the most that can be said is that it, it doesn't actually disturb me like it, it used to.

T399: And now you can sort of accept that that's the way they are and the tensions that happen to exist, just as you can also recognize that that tension probably would disappear if each could accept the feelings of the other for what they really are.

C400: M-hm. (Very long pause) And then too I mean I do have this feeling that in, in time probably there will be something I can do about it. (Pause of few minutes) Now I have the feeling that they, well apparently haven't gotten too far. It's on a par with probably going in for a little penicillin so the infection won't spread, we can go back to it. (Both laugh)

T400: I'm not quite sure that I get that, but that I suppose you feel as though perhaps you haven't gotten very far today. But that it's just sort of healing it off for a time and we'll come back to it. Is that...?

C401: That's right. A, a, a...last session got pretty painful, probably a little too raw to probe in today. I mean I don't know. I, I don't want to force this thing.

T401: In other words, there may be a little bit of self-protection in the kind of experience today but perhaps that's exactly what should be there because last time was a little hurtful.

C402: That's right. I mean, there, it seems to me that there isn't too much reason to, not to believe that, that, that in the wounds which discovery brings that there can also be a, a healing process which can, can operate almost simultaneously.

T402: Sounds as though you're expressing quite a, quite a basic confidence that though some of the things are painful, it perhaps almost carry's within themselves the healing that, that will go on.

C403: Yeah, Yes. I, I think so. If you let them, if...

T403: If you really have some confidence in them. Don't try to force it, hm?

C404: That's right. That's my feeling. (Long Pause)

T404: I guess our time is just about up. Perhaps you'd just like to leave it there for today.


C405: Yeah, I think so. (Arrange next appointment. Gets up to go)Well it was better than checkers.



(Two days later)

T406: Chilly out today.

C406: Oh it's cold, but it's really very nice. Well I don't know what to talk about today. Things are going pretty well. I mean, as far as I can see Peggy's apparently running into a great deal of resistance. She doesn't want to see the psychiatrist. Of course, I mean, I don't know what to do about it except be very, sort of permissive about it. 'If you don't want to go, call up and say you don't want to go.' I do feel they've made a mistake, a very serious one in that they arranged her interviews with this young psychiatric social worker for whom Peggy doesn't have any too much respect. I mean she feels that she has no sense of humor for one thing. Which I don't know if it's important or not. And then she apparently wants to talk to a man. So I actually don't know what to do. There isn't...I suppose I could call up and talk to the Chief of Staff. But I don't know, I, I, I hesitate to, to, to do any kind of, I don't know, any imposing on this thing. I think maybe something will just have to work out.

T407: You don't want to interfere or impose your wishes on what is actually her situation.

C407: Yeah. But from the stand point of, of therapy she's getting nothing out of it. I mean that's obvious to her and...so I mean there is of course, there is a resistance or, or, or does she actually have a point. And, and I think that from the standpoint of, of personality she has a darn good point. I, I don't know. She's doing well. (Pause) Tensions are still very great in my husband. And there just isn't very much I can do about it now. I think it's, it's probably, probably very unwise for two people in the same family to talk to the same therapist. Now I, I mean that's my feeling, of course, of course, and it's a personal kind of usual involvement and I think it would be an excellent idea if he would come in now and talk with somebody else.

T408: You feel as though there kind of hangs over him certain tensions because of the fact that you're talking with me, even though he suggested it.

C408: Yeah, yeah I think so. I, I...that's my feeling. I think maybe it would be a good idea if he would come in and start talking with somebody else and working out these things now. I personally don't think I give a hoot what he is thinking but that's a, a probably a ticklish spot with him. (Pause of several minutes) You know, let me see...I think that probably one of the things that bothers me a little bit is this...I'm sure from, from things that we've discussed at home that my husband expects me to come out of this thing a changed person. Now I know I'm not going to be a changed person. And in many respects I don't, I wouldn't even want to be.


I, I, it's just sort of silly. But it's going to be awfully disappointing. Not for me but it'll be awfully disappointing for him.

T409: You really feel very, heavily almost the weight of his expectations that this is going to make you over someway. Whereas in your own feelings you neither expect it to make you over nor do you particularly want it to make you over.

C409: No, not at all. And I think I'm pretty clear in my own mind what I want to take place, what I want this to mean, a kind of stability, a, a, a more secure feeling, a...but I don't think, I don't think it's fair. I don't think it's, it's possible to, to, to expect a personality to conform or, or to, to, to come to be the, the representation of what somebody else has in mind.

T410: Are you saying this, that you've, your own hopes involve certain change, that is you hope to have a more steady, sure feeling inside and so on, but that the thing that you are deeply objecting to is that somehow this will change you over into a mold that somebody else has designed, as it were, or somebody else expects.

C410: Yeah, and I...not so much objecting to it, as the feeling that it's, it's a pretty impossible kind of, of thing.

T411: Whether you object or not is immaterial. The point is it's something that couldn't really happen. A person couldn't change over into somebody else's expectations for him.

C411: That's right. I don't even know. Is it expectations? It's, it's a kind of moral judgment. It may be correct. It may be entirely correct.

T412: Does that mean that you sense in it a certain flavor of...this is what you ought to be. Is that what you mean by moral judgment?

C412: Yeah, yeah. This is, this is what life expects of you. This is what life demands of you. This, is, is the, is the, this is a life experience, an observation, etc., etc., etc. This is, this is how people function. This is how they behave, how they cooperate. That, that kind of thing. Nothing really tangible. (Very long pause) It, this is my feeling in spite of the fact that he may be entirely right.

T413: His judgment as to how people should be, how you should be may be absolutely correct. But even so you feel that negative attitude toward that.

C413: Well of course, now let me see in the reflection, in, in, in putting it in terms of negative...it really isn't always actually negative. It's...

T414: I felt that was wrong when I said it.


C414: Well at least it made me think about it and, and feel rather guilty. But it isn't actually all negative. I try to change people. (Pause) Of course I'm, I'm going to face up sometime with, in the near future, with the, the idea of, of coming up and finding out how many compromises I can make. Compromise is probably not the word, kind of an adjustment.

T415: Is it, sometime you're going to have to, decide that you will adjust to that, to this and that this adjustment is too great to make and so on. That kind of...

C415: Yeah. And I have to do that, I have to push it up further in, in the future because there is right now this very strong feeling. If if I really had my way I'd say 'look let's call it quits'. Well rationally I, I, my feeling is, my thinking is that maybe that should be delayed. I mean maybe we should wait, just sort of sit on it. If it grows then of course that's something else again.

T416: But in no sense denying the present feeling that it just seems to you as though, well we'd better call it off. Yet you want to wait to see, see how lasting or what happens to that feeling before you...

C416: ...Yeah. It may change. (Long Pause) I think I'm, I'm even more hesitant to, to, to act upon some of the things I feel because of Peggy's involvement. And, and conflict there is quite strange. I think in, in some ways she would be very pleased if, if I simply said, "Now look, this is off". And yet I wonder if it wouldn't be on, on her part, "This is very hard to take". I wonder if it wouldn't be a rather unhealthy way for her to solve some of her problems too?

T417: There's one reason you hesitate to act on your own feelings...is that though Peggy might be pleased and perhaps it would solve some of her own problems but not in a way you regard as sound or healthy.

C417: Yeah, I wonder, I mean actually just how much it would help. I mean she, she feels this conflict with her father. I mean if she, she's beginning to understand it, finally. I mean I, I catch it now and then in things she says, things that she's actually thought out. It, it's, it's not just a, a kind of resentment now. She feels he's, he's critical. She, she, she feels at times that she resents his authority. Which is of course natural at her age. And, and I think she's beginning to handle her feelings more intelligently one might say. But the, the, the underlying motivation on both parts, both of them. Peg and her father, there's a kind of rejection, one of the other. And, I mean, I can, she's said as much that it's, it's, as far as she was concerned it would solve problems for her, I mean she has said why don't you, or why, 'why do you stay here?'.

T418: You feel quite sure she would encourage you to, to leave. And yet is this it, that you sort of feel that you might be enabling her to avoid an issue rather than solve it? I'm not quite sure...


C418: Yes, I think that's it. I mean summing it up in, in sidewalk English my, my feeling is that it would be a kind of phoney solution for her.

T419: Might seem good but it wouldn't be.

C419: That's it. I mean I, I don't feel it would really actually solve much. She would, she would probably have a greater sense of freedom. But certainly a, a...that wouldn't solve the conflict which in turn might carry over in, into something else.

T420: It would give her a certain amount of relief but the problem which is in her would still remain unsolved.

C420: Yeah. It might carry over, it might carry over. So that I...it sort of puts me in a spot.

T421: That line of thinking makes it a little tough for you to see what course to take. (Pause)

C421: Yeah, it really does. It's a...(Pause)...well I sort of have a feeling that that was clarified. (Long pause) You know, it just occurred to me, oh I thought it before I think, there's a sort of a sense of being used as a, a shock absorber by both of them. And, and the thing is, if only to hell they'd build their own lives. I'm not quite sure what I, I mean by that.

T422: But a real dislike for absorbing the shocks that they let off and wishing to hell, they'd go build their own life without battering you in the process. Is that...

C422: Something like that. I, I didn't say it well because I said, I don't know exactly what I'm, I mean. It's...

T423: It's not very clear.

C423: Yeah. If, it just sort of seems that part of the, the difficulty is that neither one have had enough to draw from within themselves, from a, a...when I say building their, their own lives what I probably mean is a kind of, of strength, a, a less dependence maybe. I, I'm not at all sure what I mean by that.

T424: Is this anything like it? In a sense you feel like saying to each of them, "Why don't you find your own resources within yourself rather than me". Is that something like it?

C424: Something like that. I don't think I'm, I'm, I’m thinking of myself as a tower of strength. I seem battered. Just a, a kind of whipping boy, a...

T425: You feel that somehow their own inadequacies get taken out on you.


C425: Yeah. But that isn't all. It doesn't stop quite there. It was just a feeling of something, something that they have to do, something which they have to call for within themselves too.

T426: There's a resentment against their taking out their inadequacies on you but also the feeling that they've got to find the strength with which to build their own lives.

C426: Yeah. (Long pause) Of course, I mean this, these things, they're all sort of side issues, the, the important things we've touched upon. The temporary shelving of the adjustments that I will have to face, the almost certainty that to break up at home at this point would be offering solutions for Peggy which wouldn't be very fundamental or basic. And the other rather unpleasant sense that there really isn't anything I can do about changing either personality. I can just wish that they could find everything that they need within themselves. I wish I knew what it was. I wish I really knew what it was I mean. (Pause) I think, I wish they liked themselves well enough to find a certain satisfaction in liking themselves. No I, this is, I...it's awfully hard to state.

T427: Getting off into some very vague thoughts there. But you feel if they like themselves well enough to be themselves and to be satisfied with that, to like it, that's the kind of thing you'd wish for.

C427: Something like that. It's, it's still, I mean it's a sort of a sense that if then, I get the feeling they aren't at home with themselves and consequently they take it out on me.

T428: They just aren't friendly with themselves and so you get the brunt of that. Seems to you that there's nothing much you can do about that situation except to just wish that they were just...

C428: Then of course there's (word lost) too. And being told that I can change the environment in which they live. And I really don't know whether I can or not.

T429: I gather that you mean that they have the opinion you could change the environ-ment in which they live.

C429: My husband does.

T430: Actually you don't know (I don't know) whether you have within yourself any power to change that. (Long Pause)

C430: You see there's this one big block, a really big one. When a person is able to measure it out, weigh out judgment on another person and be so, so socially correct, you see. There's really little left for argument. So you say, "Yes, he's right", and yet have, hanging all the time a sense, "No, it isn't right". It just isn't right.


T431: M-hm. There's something in the feeling that the judge is to some extent correct or even righteous. And the judgments are even in a sense right. It doesn't seem as though it can be argued about too much. And yet the whole feeling is, "But that isn't right".

C431: That's right. A sort of block in misunder-not misunder-standing but a value. I guess I'm just not clear at all.

T432: Is it, there's no getting together, no agreement on what are the important values?

C432: Well that isn't very satisfying. It's that...and it isn't...you know for, for a good long time when we've had, when we've...issues would come up, there's a line from T.S. Elliottt's poem. I can't remember which one it is, I should probably read it and see if, what it would mean to me. But when, when all of my, my failings are pointed out and, and as I said, all socially probably right, comes from a...I'm to be judged by the stand… from the, the prevailing standards. And yet this line always comes to me as sort of, it sums up a feeling I have always. And, and it, it...let me see just what is, is...he talks about the women coming into a room, and then there's this sort of deathless feeling when he says, "This isn't what I meant, this isn't it at all". And I must remember, maybe if I'd reread it I'd, I'd know. But that's my feeling so often. 'It isn't what I meant at all'. And of course it doesn't mean anything except to me, except a, a...it seems like a kind of a frustration.

T433: So alright, the judgments are right and they're there and so on and yet this very deep feeling that we haven't, haven't communicated really, this isn't, this isn't what it's all about.

C433: Sort of, sort of unimportant in, in...

T434: This isn't the crux of the matter in any sense.

C434: That's right. This flies.

(Arrange next appointment).



(Three days later)

(Commenting on pile of papers on counselors desk)

C435: Looks like a lot of responsibility. (Both laugh)

T435: I'm weighted down a little. Looks like a lot of work to me.

C436: Makes me feel like I'm doing violence to your work.

T436: Maybe I better take it off of there.

C437: Instead of getting rid of my own guilt, I'll be developing it. (Both still laughing). Well, I think I've probably done some thinking since I was here last. I do feel the more I mull over in my mind the, the, the idea of having to make a kind of an adjustment at home as things sort of shape up now. I'm just going to have to do it.

T437: I'm not quite sure of the feeling there, that is you're going to be pretty much coerced by circumstances into fitting in there in some way. Is that...

C438: That's, that's it. It's, it's, it's not so much a feeling of willingness o-o-on my part as a kind of rationalization almost, as though I was confronted with a mathematical problem. And sort of bored with in the middle of it, primarily because I, I didn't have enough information to solve it. And now I, I kind of, of feel as though I, I am doing a little research work on the problem and I've got to solve it. Must have, have, have a solution on paper so to speak.

T438: As though you sort of get bogged down in the computational process, now you're finding out a little more about what the problem is about and probably go ahead and finish the computation, not really because you want to but because after all you ought to come out with an answer.

C439: Yeah. That's right. I, I...yeah. I, I...that's about it. It's...I think it's kind of rationalization.

T439: I take it you mean by that word that it isn't or it won't be the real thing. That it's just kind of a cover up. It'll do.

C440: Yeah. Not exactly a cover up. A, a...it's something else. I think, of course I may be kidding myself. There's always that possibility. The thing is, is in a certain way connected with Peggy. It's a feeling that, that if I don't do something to, to, to


make her face out the, the conflicts that she has, I mean not make her do something...that's vague. If, if I don't find a way of, of making it possible for her to remain in the environment in which she finds conflicts that it's, it really isn't going to solve anything for anybody.

T440: Would that be equivalent to saying this, that you feel you've got to work out a solution for you, which isn't a real solution, in order to provide a situation in which Peggy can come to a real solution of her difficulties. Is that...?

C441: That's closer to what I mean. And of course my thinking isn't clear. I mean my, my actual summing up isn't clear because there's a, a conflict in feeling. I mean there's a, a certain amount of, of resistance to the thing. There's a certain amount of, of, oh a kind of dishonesty. And I k-keep going back to this, this vague kind of a conflict, a pull that just doesn't let me go along at all. I just want to get out from under, and which is of course a very strong feeling. I mean that's very strong. And so the, the, the other side of it, of feeling that I should do the right thing, not wanting to smash things up, not wanting to hurt people, not wanting to...and yet always this pull that, that is actually what I want to do, precisely what I want to do.

T441: It has some pretty deeply opposing feelings in there. On the one hand the feeling that you want to get away, to pull out from under this, to get out. That's the honest thing. That's the thing you really feel. And on the other hand the feeling that you don't want to smash people, hurt Peggy or to do something you shouldn't do. Therefore you'll forget all this first, but it kind of refuses to stay forgotten. (Long pause)

C442: Well it certainly refuses to stay forgotten, that's for sure (Pause of several minutes) You're not being very helpful.

T442: (Laughs) You say I'm not being very helpful. Hardly fair to have you look at your feelings, hm?

C443: (Pause) Well actually for the sake of getting...I was actually really siting here just pushing feelings away, sort of catching onto little bits of nothing.

T443: Really quite busy pushing out the feelings, keeping them from flowing in.

C444: M-hm. I mean that is something that just happened now.

T444: Yeah, that's what I mean.

C445: I was feeling a mild resentment because you weren't being very helpful. I was probably feeling the same thing as you. This thing has to be faced, I know it, I'm aware of it. And, and, and I know I will face it out. But I wish there was some way of, of arriving at a kind of self satisfaction too, a, a, a...I don't know, the, the fact that this feeling is so darn strong, wanting a, a, wanting to rid myself of, of the


whole situation makes me feel that, that basically there must be a cause for that, there must be something behind it. There must be a certain need.

T445: I get two elements there, that is, first of all a question, "Isn't there any resolution to this which would permit some place for my feelings as well as for the welfare of the others involved?". And then the other question being a feeling of a desire to search yourself. That is, that you want so much to get away from all this. There's a reason for that. (Pause of several minutes)

C446: The, the actual conflict seems to be between what I think I want to do and what I think I ought to do.

T446: Feel as though what you want to do points in one direction, and what you feel you ought to do points in another.

C447: M-hm. (Pause) Which of course makes for unpleasantness.

T447: No particular fun to be pulled two directions. (Pause)

C448: On the other hand it's obvious that people do feel free with no great apparent disturbance. But you know I just somehow, I have the feeling, I wish, I don't know, I don't think anyone could really, there would be no actual way of, of, I mean no actual way of knowing but it seems to me there's a certain predictability in the thing. I feel, I have a feeling that if, if Peg can't resolve certain feelings which she has toward her father which I feel is partially the result of conflict between he and I, that she is going to carry that conflict over in, into probably her marriage. For it, it seems to me that if, if a situation could be, at least partially resolved where, where underlying feelings that are, are...which she, it turns out essentially probably feels...would, would be better if she could reach a, a, a point of, of, a kind of acceptance, a, a realization that, "Well, I have my own life to live". And a kind of cutting off, cutting away. But at the same time with-without any feeling of bitterness.

T448: That's the kind of thing you wish she could achieve and you, you feel quite responsible for seeing that at least she has the opportunity to achieve it. Is that...?

C449: That's it. I mean I think it's important now. I, I don't think it's too late i-i-if you know what I mean. And I feel on the, on the other hand if, if that kind of, of thing can't be a-accomplished, if she can still sort of pull through this thing she can grow up, she can cut off. But a little bit afraid of, it-it's going to leave her with the kind of, of bitterness that might carry over.

T449: You don’t want her to be left with a feeling which will carry into and spoil her own marriage.


C450: It might very well. I, (Long pause) ...Then of course I always come back to the same thing, that one of my strongest feelings actually really, I mean, of wanting to get out from under.

T450: You can explore all of these various avenues of implications, but if you come back to an honest look at your own feelings, it seems as though that's so very strong about wanting to get out from under.

C451: That's right. (Several minutes pause). This is a bad day. One of these days when (words lost) I don't want the responsibility and you won't take it.

T451: M-hm. Kind of rough going and you feel it should be, whatever takes place should be deep. And yet here I don't take the responsibility for guiding that. And you're fearful of taking it on yourself.

C452: Yeah, I, I...that's a little bit mild. I don't want to take it.

T452: Don't want to.

C453: I don't want to. And I, I'm just resentful that you...

T453: M-hm. Really more the feeling toward me, "You ought to take this over".

C454: Yeah, that's right. You don't help one damn little bit.

T454: Feel really quite deeply resentful that I don't...(Yeah)...take it on.

C455: That's right. Probably do me good. I don't know (Pause). I think it would be very nice if I could just dump the responsibility...you see today I just do not want to accept responsibility for my own feelings. I just don't want to examine them.

T455: "To hell with being responsible for my feelings today. I don't want to look at them. I don't want to be responsible for them. Somebody else can do it".

C456: Well I think somebody else should. I mean I know better. That's just my feeling right now. I know better.

T456: Any of that knowledge doesn't prevent you from feeling the really I should take that over.

C457: And I don't feel the least bit polite about it either.

T457: Nothing ladylike in that feeling.

C458: No. (Pause of several minutes) You know my husband and I had quite a quarrel. I don't remember, I think it was Friday, Saturday, the usual kind, where all of my,


my failings are numbered and recounted. It's sort of revealing. The, the upshot was that his telling me, educating me to the fact that very often one goes into therapy or counseling to justify something that they want to do. Well I don't know. (Laughs) Sure there's probably some truth to it. Maybe that's it.

T458: Could be that one seeks help primarily to bolster what you want to do anyway. Is that...?

C459: Of course I, I have a good resistance, I mean a certain counter argument to that which I'm feeling. Maybe what one really wants to do is, is so much a part of their inner nature maybe, that that is what one should do. Is therapy, to, to set up...make us morals, kind, kind of right-doers?

T459: The question that runs through your mind is perhaps if one did what one really most deeply wanted to do, that would be therapy and you wouldn't apologize for it. Is that...?

C460: Yeah, yeah. (Pause)

T460: Unless one assumes that therapy is to sort of, sort of cut everybody to a certain mold or a certain kind of mold of morality and proper behavior or something of that sort.

C461: Which of course explains the feeling that I had. I wasn't conscious of it when I came here. I thought I was going to talk about something entirely different and I, I can...but I can see, I can see how that my feeling, sitting here just pushing feelings away and, and resentment toward primarily this idea which was brought up in our quarrel, you see. Which in turn I, I felt towards you. "Well good God, are you going to start educating me too?". Kind of a thing...If so then it is your responsibility not mine. So you see I was right.

T461: If I'm to educate you then by God I better take the responsibility for it and no fooling.

C462: Yeah. And I, I think this is precisely what, I think I was thinking without realizing it. Well if my husband is right then, then my moral behavior is not mine but yours. You, you are responsible for it. And you better do something about it, kind of.

T462: If he's right, then it it's up to my counselor to really (C: That's right) tell me where to go. And why doesn't he get busy and get on the job? Well, it's my responsibility to say our time is up. (Both laugh)

(Arrange for next appointment)



(Seven days later)

C463: I just don't feel I'm getting any place. Really, I don't like it one bit.

T463: Feel you're sort of bogging down?

C464: It isn't so much a question of bogging down as it is actually feeling more neurotic than before I started this, and more inadequate and more frustrated, maybe you might say.

T464: Kind of troubling to find that instead of better, here you're worse.

C465: Yeah. Not worse, more marked shall we say, more definite trend, more...I guess maybe I object a little bit to the word worse, in that it's something that I've observed rather objectively.

T465: What you're saying a moment ago, were you saying that some of the same feelings and conflicts and issues perhaps are there, but that they're sharper now, more definite.

C466: Yes. Yes. They're a...you see...I mean, it seems to me that before, these things of course existed, but I was...I would see things through. It seems to me that now I've sort of hit a stage where I'm actually dodging...where it shows itself to me in ways that are kind of symbolic. I mean, I would much rather go back to bed and sleep. I would much rather shelve a...I mean, there are minor things. Because, I mean, actually consciously, I've put them some place where I'm not going to see them. Well, I didn't do that before.

T466: You mean there's been flaws in the way you were organized before, but at least you saw things through. Now you see, sometimes in small ways but at least the significance is that right now you'd rather dodge some issues than to meet them at all.

C467: Yeah. M-hm. Of course, that doesn't seem very healthy, really. It seems kind of dangerous, kind of childish. Before, I would be able to see things through, it might...sometimes it would take a good deal of manipulation maybe. And then, of course, I keep...maybe I'm trying to excuse what I'm doing or not doing, but I am telling myself, if I only had some kind of a plan for a course of action.

T467: Almost as if you're now telling yourself: since I don't quite know where I'm going, I don't have a clear course of action, why, how can I be expected to do these things. Is that...?


C468: Yes. It's something like that, I mean I have a sort of vague idea that, that maybe if I can work out some kind of constructive plan of action, and could go on with this thing at the same time, there would be a, a more or less constructive kind of balance. I don't know exactly what it is...I think maybe I ought to go to work.

T468: I sort of get the feeling that perhaps you're saying: if I had some plan to sort of take care of some of the external aspects, then okay, I could carry on this kind of thing here, but it would be in sort of a balance. Is that what you mean?

C469: Yeah. 'Course it isn't clear to me, I mean, you see that these are just thoughts that have been coming...

T469: They're vague, and you realize they're not...

C470: Yeah.

T470: ...too clear cut.

C471: I suppose if they were clear cut, I would know exactly what to do. And I'm very much afraid at this particular point of pitying myself, I mean of hanging on to some kind of a philosophy maybe, that will carry me through. But then again I'll be, you see...I mean it'll sort of be a patch job.

T471: You'd sort of like to be pretty sure at this time what you're building on.

C472: Yeah.

T472: And not to fool yourself with...

C473: I think what has happened to me is that...internally, emotionally, I don't know...I've sort of gone to pieces. That is, there have been breakdowns, not devastating ones, but it's almost as though you had a kind of physical structure, a piece of architecture, and there have been certain breakdowns, certain parts removed. And it's just not functioning well. And certainly the repair work hasn't set in yet, which...

T473: You feel as though at the present time your structure is more impaired or less organized perhaps than it was when you came in, and the rebuilding of any newer type of structure to take its place hasn't really gotten underway.

C474: That's right.

T474: You feel as though, so far, it's kind of a taking apart, a breakdown process rather than anything on the other side.


C475: Yeah. That's it. It's a breakdown. Again it's not a devastating kind of thing, it's a...well, I mean, I feel that I just don't have the tools to work with, the...and yet, on the other hand, I don't...one thing I'm absolutely convinced of: I don't want to go back to the kind of an approach, or this method of getting by. I think it's much too early in the game to think that's what I am going to have to do, because I...that would be awfully disappointing.

T475: M-hm. You're saying there that in effect that this piece by piece breakdown business isn't comfortable or pleasant, but one thing you're quite sure of is that you don't want to be back at the starting point.

C476: M-hm.

T476: You want something other than that to come out of it.

C477: That's right, that's right. And then, following that, I come to the idea, I mean that I toy with, that maybe, maybe, maybe, if I can work out a way to make some kind of constructive contribution, that is to find myself in a constructive kind of situation, that...that will comp...compensate while I'm...

T477: If you could get a job or something like that, that would sort of make up for some of the, some of the discomfort that is connected with the breaking down process.

C478: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it...it isn't...it really isn't any fun to be neurotic when you know you're being neurotic. (Laughs) It just isn't, and I mean, if I didn't know these things I could probably find all kinds of reasons for them. But, it isn't too much fun to know that you're dodging issues and you're kidding from the world, when you somehow can't justify it.

T478: When you can't...

C479: You just can't, I mean I can't justify it. I can't say that...

T479: You mean it isn't pleasant at all to find yourself doing things that you would class as neurotic or dodging or what not, to know that you're doing that, still find yourself doing it, I mean, you face the fact that you're not operating in the way that you would like, isn't pleasant.

C480: That's right. And that...I think that is something like...something that I've been trying to say. It's facing that fact that my behavior is not good, not right and understanding why to a certain extent. It's a kind of dual thing, of behaving in a certain way, a certain very neurotic way which, I mean, as I said comes up in sort of systematic things, and yet having faced the facts too... which again brings me back to this thing. It does seem to me to be kind of a dual process that, that probably in doing something, something constructive would help the thing. I don't know. (Pause 1 minute, 45 seconds) I have this feeling of just having gotten this


far and just stopping and a...not being able to go on, continue (words lost). And my feeling is that there's a great deal more to break through and the state that I'm in now is a kind of, I mean a kind of piddling petty one and it's...I don't like it.

T480: M-hm. You mean you've got certain ways in yourself and then sort of come to a stop, as though for the present you're unable to go on into, what you’re sure is, must be, there. But right at the moment, you just feel just as though you're marking time and is isn't good. You don't like it. Is that something...?

C481: M-hm. M-hm. Marking time in a kind of negative way. I'm not...one can mark time and I mean, just maintain a kind of status quo, but this is in a...well, it's marking time on the side of a sort of breakdown.

T481: It isn't marking time with an alertness to go ahead, but more marking time to keep from going ahead?

C482: I don't think that's conscious on my part. No, I don't...

T482: I wasn't quite sure how you meant about this breakdown.

C483: Yeah, it's not a conscious...I'd like to go ahead, I'd like to get it over with, you see, I think. (Pause: 3 minutes, 11 seconds). It seems to me that I've reached a point where I've sort of lost touch with myself. When I take stock...I'm pretty well convinced that intellectually I'm sound, I mean, I know I am sane and I know I'm...my thinking is pretty correct, it's pretty sound. But somewhere along the way there...I got hold of something. I may be all wrong, I may have gone on a completely wrong tangent. But what I wanted to do was to examine intangibles. I felt that I, I really don't need to examine my thinking. It's something else, it's something else when one gives all kinds of names to it, and none of the names are it. I lost...sort of lost the thread.

T483: For a time you were really working in the field of those intangibles and then somehow you lost contact with that self.

C484: That's right.

T484: But you have, I take it, a pretty strong feeling that it's...the important thing lies somewhere in that realm.

C485: That's exactly the point. My feeling is, if I can't get in and examine those things, and really pick them out and...things, they aren't things...really kind of harness it, put into shape. Then it's not going to work. And I think, I think I'll find my way back, or forward. Of course you see, and then, I ask myself when I go out into the sunlight, and dodge a few cars...well, what in the world are you looking for, what in the world are you looking for?


T485: What are you chasing cobwebs for...

C486: That's right. What are you looking...maybe you're off on a wrong track.

T486: Seems awfully shadowy and sort of dubious when you get out in the white light of day.

C487: M-hm. Sort of a sense of an embarrassment. Yeah. That's it, I mean, sort of a “Come, take your place in this gorgeous progressive twentieth century”. I mean, “Stop it”.

T487: Almost 'what are you doing out there in that other realm?'You ought to be a little ashamed of yourself somehow.

C488: M-hm, that's right. And yet, when I listen to myself, I know that's it. So, of course, I mean, I just feel that if I could hold on to that I'll find it, that it's much more real.

T488: It may not seem like the twentieth century to you, but when you get hold of it, you're pretty damn sure that it is something very real. The kind of thing, I take it, where you don't need someone else to tell you, 'Yes, that's important, you know that's important.

C489: Yeah, yeah. That's what I meant. I said that when I, when I can just listen and sort of feel a push and that's it. (Twelve minutes pause) I think this conflict, I don't know if it is a conflict or not, really, this conflict of...what I feel should be a genuine, the feeling of a sort of experiencing self, and the adjustment to the world, has really always caused me trouble really.

T489: M-hm. You're saying there has always been kind of a rift between the real experiencing of yourself, and the way you operate to get along in the world.

C490: Yeah. It's probably way, way, way back. I think...I think I can remember always...or very often having a definite feeling, a being certain that the, the values that people seem to live by and uphold were kind of unreal things.

T490: All this structure that they live by is really sort of a shell, not really the real thing.

C491: Yeah. And just in sitting here I realize, my goodness it goes back a long, long way.

T491: That's far, far back in your own experience.

C492: And this is...this feeling that I have never verbalized, and I don't even know if it means anything. I've never really been concerned with authority or authorities because they somehow didn't effect me, but resenting.

T492: You resent them, but there is a feeling that they can't touch you, is that...


C493: Yeah, yeah. I mean, if I can hang on to what it is and all that I somehow have, and believe...but, then the problem still...I think this is the problem, the trick to the thing, I still have to live in the world.

T493: You can think about this essence of you, this thing you're in contact with someti-mes, and lose and contact again, and it seems very real. It's the part that outside things can't touch much. Yet, along with that, there's the feeling that still and all I've got to be practical. I've got to adjust to the world.

C494: Yeah. I guess I don't want to adjust. I think I'd like to find a way of accomplis-hing, of doing the things that are expected of me, willingly, without sacrificing myself, I mean my, oh, shall we say, my private self. I don't think that necessarily means adjustment.

T494: I'm not quite sure there. Is this a wish, a hope that perhaps that private self could really operate in a way that it wouldn't have to limit itself, sacrifice itself, and so on. But never the less could operate on that basis in the world. Is that...?

C495: I didn't state it clearly. Let me try again...once more. When I think of adjustment, I think of the people that I know, that by and large would be termed well adjusted people. I don't thing that's what I want, I don't think, from what I'm able to observe, that those people are, are really functioning on...oh shall we say, a kind of full power. That, in order to make their adjustment, they've had to dull their sensitivity. I, maybe...I guess maybe I'm all wild and wrong. I may have to completely revise this thing. Well, I don't, I don't think I want this to happen. In other words, I'd like to be able to, to live constructively, and yet, still be at, sort of at odds with the world in which I live. I'm still pretty...

T495: Do you mean that at least you don't want the kind of, quote, good adjustment, that means lopping off a part of yourself and bending yourself to fit something, or dulling your feelings. You'd like to be able to live in a freer way, I take it, a way that's more related to this private self. This may very possibly mean that you're still in a sense being opposed to the world in many ways. Does that catch...

C496: Yes, yes. That catches it. I’ll think of a… I think there’s something pretty darn important there. It’s sort of as though I’m saying that I’d like to make a home for myself some place that really isn’t my home, as it is, you see. It’s vague.

T496: That you'll have to think over. I'm afraid times up. Let's see, we don't have a date in here at this time.

(Arranges next appointment)



(Two days later)

C497: It was cold on the way. (Laughs) I worked hard getting here. (Laughs, sighs) You know, I'd sort of like to see if I can work out an idea as to why I'm being so vague; why I'm dealing in more or less abstractions. I'm not at all sure why I mean, when I think about it, I come to believe that it's the only way I can do this thing. But I'd like to know why.

T497: So that there isn't such a question about your feeling as to the fact that for you these vaguenesses represent the real way of going ahead. But you wish you knew why you chose that kind of path. Is that what you mean?

C498: Yes. That's what I mean. It's even...isn't so much a question of having chosen something; it's a...something that I sort of fell into. Now let's see, if we go back, the major problem, the major tension was...seem to have been my...relationship with Peggy. Alright, we took that. It seems that in just recognizing certain facts that are very unpleasant facts, there was a change in attitudes, shall we say, which made the going much easier, much less tense, the...I mean, a better kind of thing. That was shocking, but it was a quick shock, a sort of bang, bang, bang, and a hump that, I think, or a hurdle, or something that I jumped over quickly. There really wasn't anything too very vague there like...but it doesn't satisfy me, I mean, I probably could have said, well now this is a problem, I have to solve this problem, that's that. But somehow in the process, the shock, the upsurge of the emotions that I felt in discovering this thing and changing the...changing myself, shall we say on that, I found many other things, I mean...now I'm getting vague, you see.

T498: So that there was at least the first rather sharp, rather concrete working out of different problems in regard to your relationship with your daughter. And in one sense, you might almost have stopped there, had you not in that process, come across certain feelings in yourself, certain unanswered elements which begin to have this quality of vagueness.

C499: Yeah. It's as though in a partial solution, almost a solution, of that particular problem. That was a kind of turning in and a dissatisfaction with...a preoccupation with self and at the same time a kind of being dissatisfied.

T499: Would this be something like this, that at first it was the feeling that the problem is the relationship with your daughter, but as time had gone on, the problem is yourself. I mean that you really are wanting to...feeling dissatisfied with yourself, and wanting to deal with that.

C500: Yeah. (Pause) It's as though I've become aware that I'm not functioning, but that...not full speed, that it isn't what I mean. It's as though I'm not utilizing self.


But the thing that concerns me is...and concern isn't the word, I'd like to understand it. I'd like to, I mean, 'cause I'm still pretty much convinced that this is the only way I can do this. But...yeah it seems to me that since I did make progress with the particular problem, because I was able to fit in rather realistic terms, that maybe, maybe, all of these abstractions are going to have to become clearer, too, or...

T500: So that your feelings say that the way you're going is real, it's alright, but since it seems as though a lot of progress was made with the problem outside of yourself by crystalizing it pretty clearly, maybe these vaguenesses have got to become quite specific if you're to achieve what you want...

C501: That's right.

T501: ...in regard to yourself.

C502: Maybe.

T502: Maybe? You guess, you're not sure.

C503: What I'm interested in is something that goes on under my skin. Now. If I pinch myself and say "ouch", "ouch" isn't what happens. I...it just seems to me...I have become, I've become in this room very leary of labels, of borrowing somebody else, some bringing into the situation any ready-made kind of theory or diagnosis. I'm just...afraid of it, just afraid of it. Now, does that mean that I'm afraid of facing what is going on, or am I right?

T503: To put in terms of the illustration, you feel very strongly that in this room you don't want to deal just with the word "ouch", or with what somebody else thinks about whether or not the pinch hurts you and you want to deal with the experience that went on inside your skin when that happened rather than label it experience. But then, you wonder too, but is that right, or should I be dealing labels and what people would think about them...almost, it seems to me, asking, am I right to deal with these experiences that go on within my own skin.

C504: You see, I know, I know what it is I'm doing. And it may be it can't be done. I'm in search, I'm in quest, I want to put my hand on something that I believe in. Something I know, I know.

T504: You're in search of a greater degree of certainty in yourself, and maybe that isn't possible, you don't know.

C505: No, no. That doesn't...

T505: That doesn't fit.


C506: That doesn't fit, that doesn't fit. And it just sounds I mean, it just sounds like (?) verbalizing it. I'm trying to isolate a force. There...see how vague I become? (C: M-hm) What's under the ouch? ... Something I believe in, something that can radiate. Well what I think I actually want to do is pull it out of myself and examine it. And then, I don't...it just seems to me that if I can do that, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference if I verbalize about anything. It doesn't, it doesn't...it wouldn't make any difference whether I ever say them or I don't say them.

T506: If you can discover that, that inner force within yourself, something that can be believed in, if you can get acquainted with it, and know it, you don't think, well that would be it. You wouldn't have to talk about problems or...

C507: That's right. Then of course, I mean, that brings me back to the...well, maybe that's the way of not talking about problems. But still, when you pinch yourself, that's sort of a proof to that. And I'm...

T507: Maybe it's just an escape from dealing with your problems, but somehow you're trying to rely on the feel of experience, Is that...?

C508: That's right. I'm really not a vague and...the kind of person who deals in abstractions. It's a completely new kind of experience for me. In fact I flatter myself on being able to get my arguments into good order and give my points, and know what I'm talking about.

T508: You've been strong on logic and specific knowledge and definition and so on (C: yeah) This hardly seems like you, to be talking in such vague terms.

C509: But what occurs to me, I mean, just this minute, just now...is that even in my vagueness it...well it seems to me that I'm, I'm trying to be, I'm trying to find a scientific method. I-I-I'll just bring this thing out. But it's just as though I need a different language.

T509: You really think you like this way of approach, because it seems as though you really are trying to proceed in an orderly fashion. Yet it’s quite a different kind of orderliness that demands a new vocabulary, a new way of expressing yourself.

C510: M-hm. Something like that. Because when I get away and take stock, then I can see what has...what is happening. Here, I mean I step backwards, oh a certain amount of resistance to the thing. Certain parts of me really don't want to change, you see. Because what...because I've learned to live with what I have, after a certain fashion. But I can feel a greater, or an element of peace, I mean sliding into this thing. I don't know if peace is the word, well it's good enough for now. So I, well I'm sure it's the only way I can do it.

T510: In many ways it seems kind of damn mysterious and peculiar, and yet you like the kind of, not all of you likes it but, in general you like the kind of thing that has


taken place in you because it does seem to be leading perhaps towards more peace or at-homeness with yourself.

C511: M-hm. Something like that. Then of course, always in the back of my mind, I know 'cause I can't avoid not hearing it sometimes that these are other areas that I am going to have to do something about, attitudes I'll have to do something about. But I'm not ready.

T511: You're very sure that some of those are going to have to be dealt with, but in their own time or in your own time.

C512: That's right. Not until I'm...not until I'm able to utilize myself and to manipulate me.

T512: After you've gotten to the point where you can know yourself, use yourself, have some control over yourself perhaps, okay then...

C513: The word me was wrong. Let's say a friend of mine, see?

T513: Isn't me, this...

C514: No, uh, uh.

T514: Someone with whom you're becoming acquainted perhaps?

C515: That's right. And I get terribly impersonal.

T515: I guess you feel it isn't a very close relationship yet.

C516: No, it probably...probably never will be. It's an impersonal kind of thing, but again not in the sense that we think of impersonal as cold kind of...

T516: Sort of, something sort of separate somehow, is that...?

C517: Well, if separate means a thing apart, no it isn't that. It's only a thing apart because you've lost track of it, because we've...well, because "ouch" seems more important.

T517: It seems as though you've gotten out of contact with it by dealing primarily with some of the labels.

C518: M-hm. (Pause: 1 minute, 20 seconds) I think this way is hard.

T518: No fun, hm?

C519: No. And it's even harder still because it's just so damn simple that...what is it, I think it's just so simple. And we just, we just don't have the answer. (Pause: 2


minutes, 30 seconds) I can recall feeling once, I feel very much the same way now, just on the verge of a big joke. And I think that that's what prompts this thing because it's such simplicity, such simplicity that sort of as though I was saying to myself, "My God, why take yourself so seriously, the answer is right there. And yet, what do I have to do? Dig with my fingernails, through, through, force.

T519: And you go through this long and laborious task and yet there's the conviction that the real answer is just the essence of simplicity.

C520: M-hm. But in order to find it, I mean probably once, there is taking oneself too seriously, or very seriously and for me, the vagueness and the dealing with abstractions. And at least there's a kind of fascination to the thing...I sometimes feel when I leave here, well, I'm merely taking your time. Sort of, God, you have these responsibilities what can...and even for purposes of study. And then I feel well, awfully important to me and I'm not going to stop.

T520: Somewhat contradictory feeling that it can't be worth anything and why should I impose it on a person who has other things to do. (C: M-hm) And yet, the conviction too that this is something extremely important, very important for you to continue.

C521: M-hm. Very. In fact, I sometimes feel, and I feel right now, maybe it might be a good thing to get it down. It's so important to me that somehow it's got to be important to you. But it's got to have...it's vagueness. It's something pretty vital.

T521: Maybe somebody wouldn't understand, maybe I don't get it, but it is so important that others, must, should, feel its vitality and its depth.

C522: That's it. I...again being very, being abstract. If there is something that I believe in so strongly and that I'm searching for and I'm looking for; and I'm digging out as if it's a kind of a creation. And there's something that eh, it's bound to come off, on you too, I mean I,...

T522: Basically you're feeling there that something is bound to come of this. (C: M-hm) Is that...?

C523: M-hm. And I don't know how long those things take. It might take years so any time you want to say quits... (Laughs) Oh...

T523: It may drift on into the future for a long, long time. Wonder if I'll get bored.

C524: There's also a consciousness on my part from this session that in the near future I'm going to go a step further. I told you before, I know because I'm vague. I'm conscious of a certain rhythm, a certain something that takes place, a preparation.


T524: Although it may sound vague, you know quite surely within your own experience that an interview like this one is a preparation for something that's going to come. (C: M-hm) You don't know what but...

C525: A kind of release, a something will come through. And I'm so acutely aware of a kind of rhythm, a kind of theme.

T525: Kind of a melody or a theme or has it's own...

C526: M-hm.

T526: ...rhythm.

C527: And the only...I mean, I still seem to think or to feel that it's a preparation, and again it's sort of like taking a big shot of penicillin, because there's going to be a bursting out of pus which you'll...you're going to want to confine. And it's not going to be harmful that way.

T527: This is sort of an antiseptic precaution, as it were.

C528: That's right. That's it exactly. That's it. It...

T528: For what you know will come in the way of breaking out and release.

C529: Yeah. That's it exactly. And it's...you also don't lose that and...it sort of...it builds up.

T529: I gather you mean by that: it has it's own value, it's not just marking time or anything like that.

C530: Yeah.

T530: It's to conserve what...

C531: M-hm.

T531: ...there is.

C532: And these experiences, these kind of rhythmical things are very much related to what it is I'm trying to capture, I'm trying to examine, as a kind of permanent thing.

T532: They have a real relationship to this deep inner thing that somehow is going to emerge from all your effort and all that.

C533: (Pause: 2 minutes, 10 seconds) You know, of course actually, this isn't an abstraction. If one has the time, and they understand the importance, it probably


isn't such a bad thing. And I'm saying this, now this won't square either. It just occurs to me; last night I was drawing in chalk, abstracting a cocktail shaker, and I mean, just not thinking really, just because I found out I was depressed, and wanted to see what I could do with it. Well, it occurs to me now that after, after I had made oh, about six or seven sketches, I mean losing more of the original form, I actually began to see things that almost that, I mean, anyone looking at the cocktail shaker would say...well it's not there, but I could see it there. Maybe this is another method of seeing things that are actually present, I mean, actually present in the mind, in the personality. But because we're so very used to looking at in one way, we don't see.

T533: Maybe just like that artistic experience. This is a way of looking and looking again, and looking more deeply until things that you never would have seen on the first look are discovered to be really there, and that also in more of a unity.

C534: That's right. In a more dynamic kind of way. Probably even more honest way, I don't know why I...use that word, but...certainly in a way that create an impact that you feel, the "ouch"...in the cocktail shaker. But, yeah.

T534: Would this catch some of that: that perhaps it arrives at a point where there's less of what it is supposed to be, and more of what is...

C535: M-hm. Well, anyway, as of now, as of this date, this is the way I have to do it.

T535: You've really come to accept that and see something of its potentialities.

C536: M-hm.

T536: Time is about up? Do you want to say what days you'd like to make it next week?

(Next appointments are arranged)



(Five days later)

C537: It's a bad day. (Both laugh) I'm as bad as the weather. I don't know, I'm just...just kinda ornery.

T537: Everybody'd better look out?

C538: No. I really think I'm pretty harmless today. It's just...I think I'm a little bit alarmed at this, the fact that I'm really...seem to be getting worse. And... something, there's a...great conscious tendency for throwing blame now and...a...a kind of...well, (Pause) just... And yet in justification there's something to it too. I mean, it was...probably brings about this feeling of orneriness. A...(Pause) ...and then, as I said, there's a little element of alarm...because I'm beginning to realize I just won't face the...the situation. I'll play with it, but I...I actually won't accept the...reality. I...(Pause).

T538: There is this...feeling of blaming others and feeling that that's pretty much deserved, too. But then there's somewhat deeper level of concern that you don't believe you're willing to really face up to some of the basic difficulties. It's alright to play around the edges a bit, but you feel that's about as far as you'll go. (Long Pause)

C539: The...situation as I...feeling that it's again going back to this marriage which I...I skirt. There's this...consciousness that it was a mistake. And yet saying that it's a mistake isn't the answer, isn't the answer, you see. A...well...what I'm saying, I think, is that I can't find...moral justification for saying, it's a mistake, period. And...I mean just letting it go at...at that...which is...getting to be more and more the way I feel I-I would like to be able to direct my thinking and my actions. And yet...I mean, following that is...is...I find two separate kinds of...feelings. I think the...one to the foreground is probably: I haven't actually got the guts to do that. Followed...and then following that is: Where does my responsibility start and where does it end? What do I...how much do I owe someone else. How much...(Pause)

T539: Your own feelings would be pretty sure in saying, it has been and is a fake, should never have been, period, finish. But you don't know whether you have what it takes to live by that feeling. And neither are you quite sure whether you have the right to be and do what you wish, or do you owe something to another.

C540: M-hm. (Pause) Something like that. (Long Pause) You know, actually...it occurs to me that...I probably...should have...lived through this thing when I was about sixteen years old. It's a...I imagine it's the kind of thing... young people feel...a-a-adolescent people feel...a resistance, a pulling away from the father kind of symbol.


And I never did experience that, you know. And...I can feel, I can sort of feel that now. 'Let me be free' Which of course doesn't help, because I can...see what a...a terribly immature thing it-it-it is.

T540: Seems as though the thing that is stirring within you is more 'I want to get away, be out on my own, be free'.

C541: M-hm.

T541: And that seems to you more like something you should have experienced a long time ago rather than now when it makes you feel as though, 'my God, that makes me look immature! ' (Pause: C: Weeps) Somehow that's a very upsetting feeling; (Pause)

C542: Of what, I don't know. It's just...

T542: Don't really know exactly what feelings occur at that point. You just know that...they come surging up; (Pause)

C543: Oh, I think probably it contains an element of self-pity which doesn't help. (Pause)

T543: You feel that you do feel sorry for yourself. (Long pause)

C544: I really do. I'm...I think there's something to this thing. That this is...partially a...a...something, a...growth development which should have taken place when I was young; probably would have if I had a father or a good father substitute. But just...I mean just something that was...just didn't happen then. (Pause)

T544: It just never was a part of your adolescent experience to grow away from father and as you look at it, it seems to have a good deal of reality that that's what you're doing now.

C545: Partially so. I mean...

T545: Yeah. It isn't the whole thing.

C546: ...no, no, no. Yeah. I really think there's something to it. A... (Pause) great deal to it.

T546: Sort of saying, I want to live my own life. Is that... something you experience?

C547: No. It isn't quite that. It isn't quite that. It's...it's as though...let me be careful now...(Long pause). Well, it's more like on the...again I-I-I can only feel in a kind of adolescent way. A...not so much the idea of...let me live, live my own life, but...more the...feeling that...it isn't...that need a...(Pause) I wonder...I wonder how a child feels when they become...disillusioned with their parents. A... a kind of


feeling that ... of... of not needing punishment. A...certainly finding no... satisfaction in it, a kind of point that...might be reached when it...isn't a satisfying kind of...experience to...perhaps...be the...the kind of a child who even...will do things to...be sure of holding the...attention of the...I mean, might even allow themselves to be punished. Of the...then...and in it is the element of...being disillusioned...a...and I-I feel right now...I somehow...I'm sure that very young people probably feel this.

T547: Your whole feeling is perhaps a little more akin to that of a child who might think in regard to his parents, I see you not all-wise or all-good. I do feel disillusioned. You're just not so important to me, neither so important to do things as you wish, nor even to do things against you in order to be sure of your interest in me. Is that a little bit...?

C548: Something like that. M-hm. (Pause) And then of course, I mean, there follows this...this resentment...this (Pause) that I'm sure must be a very adolescent kind of thing because if I resent so much and yet most of the time feel that, well, I'm right...if a person is right, then why be so damn resentful. I'm...I-I...a...(Pause) It's really a pretty immature kind of thing. (Pause)

T548: A very strong resentment, but you feel it's kind of a childish thing in its immaturity. (Long Pause)

C549: I don't know quite how one handles that kind of thing, and...(Pause) and my feeling on the matter is just, well, let's wait; let's just wait, now, let's see.

T549: 'I feel this way. I don't know what one does about that or how it could be handled. I'll just wait and...' (Pause)

C550: ...and see, that is, just wait for the next...(Pause) whatever it is. (Pause) It makes me wonder if a toy that you withheld might be a good one to take home and play with for awhile. (Laughs) Oh, dear. Well, I'll wait. That is, I'l wait. It'll come, I suppose.

T550: Guess you'll just have to sort of wait to see what develops. Is that...?

C551: Well, what develops within me.

T551: Yeah. M-hm.

C552: Yeah. What…

T552: What is the next phase of the riddle, sort of is just a little bit…

C553: That’s right. What I…it just seems to that I…I can just see so much. Now, I could go on and…develop this thing, probably. I mean with a lot of… past history. But I


have the very strong feeling that if I do that, I’m apt to kind myself. See, I’m very apt to get a kind of a ready made answer which…the longer I come here, the more I suspect… I’m, I’m leery of it; I’m…diagnosis is good. I mean, I know it’s good. It’s valuable. But…it’s as though I’m saying to myself, prognosis is better if we leave that out; if…if we…

T553: You’ve just come to feel that the ready made things, the sort of things you could say… well, those you’ve come to doubt. I mean, you’ve…if the things that you feel really develop within yourself, somehow they’ll have more significance for the future.

C554: That’s it. I mean…more significance for me. Maybe after I’ve said it all, then it can be put into its proper terminology, the terminology that will make sense. But…I’m, I, it’s this kind of conviction that just so much is said in my own way…almost in a …in a kind of new way.

T554: M-hm. And I understood, as you said a moment ago, it’s also that only a certain amount of that new kind of thing can perhaps be said at any time.

C555: I’m sure of it. (Pause) I’m sure of it. I’m sure, that for me it’s better that way. But it’s probably slower. (Pause) There is the feeling that forcing would…would not result in any kind of a…permanent change, a…(Long pause) I think it’s rather interesting that…I’m hitting the phase of this thing where I’m…beginning to dream of it. Course what I mean is I’m beginning to remember my dreams. The first time in…oh, years and years and years and years and years. And since they have absolutely no significance for me, I feel that they’re…quite beside the point. But the fact that I have, this feeling of being a neurotic which I didn’t have before, you see…it does seem to me that there’s a loosening up of…well, shall we say, structure. And the…these…dreams leave me with a sort of disturbed, a…oh, my, kind of thinking now, “That you must remember”, and I mean, “you must remember.” Then of course, as I say, I mean, they have no significance for me except the feeling of 'ooh'. And...and the fact that it does make me feel...there's a feeling of hopefulness.

T555: So that this disturbed and unpleasant kind of feeling that's associated with the dreams at least makes you feel that something is happening, that you are somehow loosening up and that there is motion at any rate and...

C556: M-hm. Yeah. That's it. A...certainly not good. I mean I'm not...

T556: M-hm. A sort of loosening up and sort of disagreeable.

C557: Yeah. But I...m-hm. A loosening up...a...(Pause). M-hm.

T557: Guess we'll have to stop for today.


C558: Just as well.

(Arrangements for next appointmen



(Two days later)

C559: I don't know what to talk about. I think I feel better. I have been thinking...about this idea of being concerned the way this thing was shaping up. Not so much a concern as a kind of interest...a slight wonderment...the...wondering about the methodology of the thing, at least the manner in which it takes from. And...course it...occurs to me now that...that's how it happened to be. When it...from time to time I've...stated that this feeling of not wanting to bring into this thing what I might know. A kind of reaching out and trying to grab a kind of faith in what I don't know. A...being leery of labeling and...well, it occurs to me that that's...that's alright. Because what it really means, it seems to me is that after all, one doesn't have to be intelligent for this kind of thing; one doesn't have to know...probably...one doesn't have to be aware of...what is actually taking place. It just seems to me that in my approach to the thing, there's been a...a kind of watchfulness. I think it's helpful maybe, but not at all necessary. I'm just saying this because it...it rather interests me. That's all.

T559: And I think I understand quite clearly the aspect of it that you realize it isn't something intellectual and so on. It doesn't particularly demand there that the important elements of it have much to do with that aspect of living. And when you say you sort of stand off, a sort of watch-fulness which you regard as unnecessary, I gather that you mean, you could sort of let yourself experience this thing without necessarily at the same time standing off and watching the progress, is that...?

C560: Well, I don't think that's quite what I meant.

T560: I see.

C561: I think I meant that for me that's probably a-a-a natural kind of approach. But from the...from the point of view of therapy...

T561: M-hm. I see.

C562: ...I...I...you see, I began thinking...thinking of myself in relation to therapy. I...I'm just concerned, but a kind of minor concern, about the way the thing would at times take shape. I'm sure I verbalized some of my feelings before, and...a wondering as to...myself in relation to other...cases, quote. And so then, I mean that's when it occurs to me, this kind of...that it's alright. I mean, it's a...that one doesn't have to react like I have been. One doesn't have to be intelligent. One doesn't have to understand. That it's alright. A...

T562: M-hm. That this is sort of necessarily a very individual kind of experience and you don't have to have some of the concerns about it...is that...?


C563: Yeah. M-hm. A...

T563: M-hm. I see. Comparisons and so on.

C564: Yeah. That it isn't...and then of course it sort of made me feel good. It’s tied up with this...feeling that I had once. I'm not...I mean this thing that I was...fighting one day. A...is therapy going to make me a good moral...quote, quote, you know...that kind of thing. I...there was a resentment against that kind of thing. A...just the feeling that, well, no, I mean, I just know that isn't, that isn't right. If it is, then...then the job of therapy...therapist or of psychology or psychiatry is simply to be a mill and turn out a kind of very...well, carbon copies of...

T564: M-hm. That is, thinking over some of these things has helped you, I gather, both to fully accept the feeling of resentment against any process that would just turn out carbon copies. And has also helped you to realize that this isn't that kind of process.

C565: No. Why, it just came to me. If it were, it isn't. Because then...I'm getting, you see, I...I get myself in relation to other people who...who under-...who are undergoing, or have undergone, or who will undergo this...this kind of thing. They can't possibly bring to it what I have to bring to it, see. So...which in turn makes me feel that...that in regard to what I do happen to bring to it, it's okay.

T565: M-hm. Both the feeling that you can't possibly come out of this a carbon copy of anything, and also that the sort of unique material you bring to it...alright. So you do. You will develop in terms of that.

C566: M-hm. M-hm. Now I've had a...the...intellectual kind of...acceptance for this thing, and...but that isn't quite enough. See, this is...was something that's sort of taking place under the skin so to speak. A...

T566: It's part of this unverbalized experience.

C567: Yeah.

T567: But somehow it really feels as though it's alright...in process.

C568: Yeah. It's a difference almost between...my approval of or a liking for and a...kind of knowing. And I think it's terribly interesting really. I mean, I do have my ... moments when I'm very interested in what's taking place.

T568: That it is really quite intriguing to observe yourself as this goes on. And also intriguing to be yourself as it goes on, hm?

C569: Yeah. M-hm. It is quite. And then of course there is this other feeling that I can't quite verbalize, my position in this thing, in relation. In...somehow being tied up


with others that have experienced this. Or possibly will. A...I don't quite know just what that is. But a...it's tied up with me knowing that...that whatever it is that they're going to bring into this thing...it won't be the same and doesn't have to be the same. And...and still there's sort of a hook-up some place.

T569: M-hm. There is a relationship, that is you can feel a relationship with that, in a sense, unknown group, a relationship that has meaning, and yet is by no means a relationship of identity but more of a feeling that it is quite alright for you to be an entirely separate and unique person in that experience. Is that it?

C570: M-hm. M-hm. M-hm. (Long pause) I have a feeling...(Laughs)... This is nice. Must really be pretty hard on my husband to know I'm sitting here. (Both laugh)

T570: You feel it must be hard on him and yet it sounds as though you were getting a certain amount of kick out of that too.

C571: Well, I don't know. I sometimes wonder if we really know when we, the purpose of humor. (Both laugh) I...it's not malicious. I mean, it's...but it must be very hard. I...I haven't quite seen from...from...that point of...view. I don't know how I'd react. And personally I don't think I'd give a damn, really. Might. I don't think so though. (Pause) It seems to me..., (Pause) It seems to me that what he accomplished was...a kind of approval. I may not be stating it properly. A kind of approval which...apparently was important. Well...if that's it...I mean, if I'm right...approval in itself is a pretty shaky kind of thing. And...and I can see where that would certainly crumble even if there's the element of...well, what is she saying about me?

T571: Sort of an approval, and that that must be pretty shaky. That there is the possibility of that being sort of withdrawn, I mean, it would always be a shaky thing.

C572: I say that since I feel that that approval in itself is...I mean, the very nature of approval it seems to me is something that you give or you withdraw. Maybe, I may be all wrong, all completely wrong, but it seems to me that that's...that might be, that might account for tensions, for... (Pause) He may see this thing now, of course not consciously, I'm sure, as a...he may even see me as competing with him for your approval. I mean, it's quite possible. My reaction to this thing...I mean, there isn't anything in it, I, there's no (word lost). I just don't give a damn.

T572: As I get that, you mean you're not here for approval.

C573: I really just don't care. That's all. (Pause) Sometimes it seems to me that, well, I've just found a place to bring a song here.

T573: You've found a place to "compose your own music".


C574: That's right. That's...the thing is...is terribly personal and at the same time...kind of impersonal.

T574: M-hm. There's a contradictory quality of being deeply personal, and yet definitely impersonal.

C575: Yeah. M-hm. (Long Pause) I think it doesn't make any difference what a person brings to this kind of thing. The way it's approached. On the other hand, wasn't I actually complaining that in my husband's case, it didn't quite work out? Wasn't I really and how so? Okay, now, let's see what happened. Let's see. (Pause) Don't know. Maybe I'm saying this from my point of view. Maybe that's more true to fact. (Long pause)

T575: That perhaps from your point of view it didn't work for him. Is that...?

C576: Well, not so definite. I'ts sorta... it seems to me that I've done a trick to myself. I've not put myself, I've not...there probably isn't so much a contradiction in what I've said as there appears to be. I said...that I was convinced for myself that it didn't matter how one approached this kind of thing. A...how much they knew, or didn't know, or knew what they were doing or...that...that it could work out, it could be very successful. Then I...left that, so to speak, and implied that in my husband's case, I felt it hadn't been successful. But of course that's still... wouldn't mean that it's, it was because of what he brought into it, or how he did it. No. And of course I must ask myself, well, what do...what do I mean by successful. What does it matter what I mean? (Pause)

T576: Are you sort of approaching the notion there that perhaps different people use it in different ways, or different roles?

C577: No. I don't think I'm coming to that at all.

T577: More just raising the question of yourself, well, what do you mean by success, and you...

C578: Yeah. I think I know what I mean for myself. And because I'm living in a situation where I feel someone else's tensions and...so forth. I mean, I'm apt to...well, maybe think in terms of carbon copies. (Both laugh) Not quite that, but...something. Then I...

T578: I gather what you mean by that is that as you mull that over, you realize that...perhaps you would be willing to define what...success would be for him. I mean...

C579: Yeah. Yeah.

T579: ...in terms of carbon copies.


C580: I'm sure I would be. Which is of course rather foolish. I can't do that. (Pause) And then of course, sometimes, this of course isn't original. But I sometimes in a true observation...I wonder if some personality is...hadn't become so armored and so kind of rigid that it's a little bit dangerous to break through too far.

T580: Feel that maybe with some people, it might be sort of shattering to get through that armored surface.

C581: It's...it's kind of as though they were too much the product of the civilization in which we live that...there just wouldn't be any place for them to go if...too much was broken through. If they...sort of a re-evaluation, a...I'm not putting it well...a kind of being forced to see things as they really are. And though the coat of...of course are always the people who are complete realists too who ... which sometimes doesn't make sense again, going off and being big. The...(Pause) You know, I'll just have to be...I know exactly what it is I mean, but I can't verify the...there are...it seems to me there is an approach to life...wherein one has a lot of answers. And it's good solid kind of stuff. Very much a part of the world we live in. And yet, it seems to me that those people have somehow lost track of real things.

T581: M-hm. Feel that it's very realistic in one sense; their answers are adapted to the reality of the situation. And yet somehow there just, you have the feeling which is awfully hard to put into specific words, that they have lost touch with...or out of touch with a different type of reality, somehow. (Pause)

C582: And they’re good people, I mean, they’re the people who…who’ll be…who’re terribly opposed to war, and yet go fight the war. There’s the kind of reality I mean. It’s…really in…philosophies…and yet…being kind of afraid to…to really believe in… factual things, I mean, in real solid facts. The only way I can sum it up right now is that those are the people, and probably myself…among them to a certain extent, who don’t believe in war, and yet somehow get behind every single war that…(Pause) I suppose psychologically what I’m saying is that it’s just…the difference in…in living life. Living life. They live life; they live well; are good. And actually kind of loving life. Probably doesn’t make sense.

T582: That may somehow, that may convey something of the difference you sense there, the difference between living life even accordingly to a philosophy and so on, between that and somehow loving life, being deeply immersed in it.

C583: It’s something of that. It’s something of that. Well…

T583: I see our time is up. (Laughs) Didn’t mean to cut you off in the middle of a sentence.


C584: It’s just as well. I find I have a way of getting vaguer and vaguer. I shall probably come out of this a Gertrude Stein. (Both laugh)

T584: Well, she did pretty well. Let’s see. Next week…

(Arrangement for next appointments. Two appointments for following week made possible.)

C585: It might be interesting to just try once next week. See what happens to me then.

T585: Once a week? Okay. Alright. It’s quite okay. And if you should want an appointment Friday, assume you could have it if you wanted to phone in next week.

C586: M-hm. Yeah. Okay.

T586: Okay.



(Five days later)

T587: Beautiful day out, isn't it?

C587: Yeah, it's very nice. It's sort of...

T588: Cold. M-hm.

C588: Pardon me...have to...care of all the minor details in life. (Pause) I'm almost tempted to say, "What's new?". (Both laugh) And maybe we could do something with it. I think I invented a new game. It's a kind of a non-directive, free associati-on. I said sometime ago that sometimes my mood reminds me of a line from...a certain poem, and every once in a while I would remind myself of it. Why should that be? And not being able to trace it...just a fleeting thought of it...what the devil is it, you know, kind of thing. So...I finally found the poem. My mood was always this one line...that isn't what I meant, that isn't it at all. Which kind of satisfies me, it sort of gives you such a nice feeling that I say, well, probably all so complicated and so deep that it's...it's alright, you know, I've tried too hard. So then in reading this thing, might have even, have been fun to have brought in...go on, I mean, then I see how I fooled myself with this thing, so to speak, a...it went for line after line about...there's time yet for decision and indecision, you know, and...a shelving of the things, a...plenty of time to get it done in. Sort of amused me. It was kind of fun to have found.

T589: Sort of both tracked it down, and also found further meaning.

C589: Yeah. I mean, it's something that...is sort of kidding myself a little bit maybe. (Pause) And I've been thinking of things that...seem really of no importance. But...and the...the feel a kind of...feel mildly impelled to...talk about them, to bring them out. Whether they'll take up any time, I don't know. For...recently, for instance, recently I've been thinking about how I felt...during the war. And... it occured to me that it... it must have built up conflicts that...I wasn't really aware of then. A...well, I can recall waking up mornings sometimes, with a sense of unreality, a...the feeling that the whole thing was, just wasn't real. Which...would be followed by a feeling of...I mean, I think I'm a little dishonest. I...I don't see quite the point to this thing. And yet...I mean, a kind of participation. Then, I mean, I just recall some of these things now: how...occasionally...and of course it seems very amusing to me now...occasionally I would quite unconsciously be cautious as to how I would arrange my clothes when I would go to bed. Well, that thought occurred to me...just recently, this popping in and out of my head. And...I sort of reminded, this is my non-directive game that I'm playing up, of a...a rather like situation that I occasionally used to experience when I was a child, but felt that I had completely outgrown, but completely freed myself of it. A sense of


occasionally, if there would be a very bad storm, of arranging my clothes, so that in my childish interpretation of the thing, if it were to be the end of the world, there would be my clothes. And I realize that there was a little bit of that same emotion which carried through into this last war. Coupled with the...rationalization that, as I said must have caused conflict because I would...would very often...feel this... s-ense of the whole thing being unreal, and false to facts and being...never quite having the courage to say, I do not believe in this particular war, I expect.

T590: M-hm. Sounds as though the purpose or the direction of your little game is to be more aware of some of the feelings that were in some of these situations. Feelings that you really weren't aware of particularly at the time. And that at least two of those, that is...this feeling, you're hardly sure it was there. That you'd better be prepared for the end of the world. And the other feeling being that...the way I'm behaving is somehow a little unreal, a little false. It isn't quite the real thing. Does that catch the thing there?

C590: Something like that, yeah. It's this...something like that. (Pause) Mean, I don't even...I haven't even the slightest idea of why I've...thought of these things really. That is, it's...

T591: M-hm. Just seems like chance that you would happen to focus on or think about those particular things.

C591: Yeah. M-hm. M-hm. Then...coupled with these...or with those two thoughts with which I say I start, are...the interesting part to me is...as I stated before that...there's something that impels me to say it, see. It's...well, how can I say this...I...I...as far as I'm concerned, it has no intellectual value to me at all. But there's a...or...I mean, I attach no significance to it or importance to it. But there's a push, a...well, it's as though I'm being mildly impelled to...which is why I'm saying it. Then there's this other rather strong feeling, the...experience. It is also a part of the...whole...my feeling that was born, I think. All...or that...the undercurrent of the feeling that went all through the war. When...Roosevelt died...now...I...I always thought...I was never one, I felt, of those people, like so many citizens were, who were...simply devoted to the man. I admired him, yes. I thought he was a very clever politician and a very brainy person. But...I never had this sense of him being 'my president'. No, he didn't stand for an awful lot of things that I felt that he should. And yet when he died...I guess this is...it comes back to me now as being a very significant thing, and probably that a great many people...experience. I mean, it just...I mean, that's that. It...mean, it...they aren't feeling as of today that it's something that they want to say. That I...experienced this, the shock, which was natural. Most people did. And...then the following morning when I...woke up, and...I can remember going out. It was very quiet out. There was this sense of quietness which seemed to have settled. And...being aware of...a kind of a feeling of a...a sense of loss, and of...I don't remember whether I told myself exactly but my...and I think I did. Feeling as though...saying to myself almost: "I feel as though I've lost my father". And just letting that ride, I mean, and...feeling that.


And then being terribly disturbed by the thing. Being disturbed...not by the loss then, or the...feeling of sadness. But...or because I had even admitted to myself...that that was how I had felt. But being almost angry to think that, well...I'd sort of been taken in. A...kind of a feeling of weakness. A...you see, I never am alive at the time. I mean, what it...but it was a kind of resentment...a goal...I was saying to myself: must you have a substitution. Must you...and then of course, I mean, that just passed away and was completely forgotten. And it's just recently come to mind.

T592: M-hm. And it was quite a meaningful experience in which, as I get it, perhaps the sharpest element of it was not even the feeling that, as if I lost my father, but the feeling that, how did I get trapped into feeling that, or how did it come about that I substituted him?

C592: Yeah. A...something like that, as I...course now...now being so far removed from the thing, it seems to me that I was...thinking to myself probably, I knew better; I'm adult. I don't need that kind of thing. I know it's bad even, that it's a...a way of...let's see, being...slavish more or less.

T593: Sort of telling yourself, what do you mean by being such a child and by seeming to need the father figure whom you do feel disturbed about when you lose him.

C593: Yeah.

T594: Don't you know you're grown up?

C594: Yeah. Something like that. A... (Pause) sense of suddenly being very annoyed with myself. For having unconsciously allowed this thing to happen to me.

T595: M-hm. Almost scolding yourself that you could have felt something like that underneath the surface without even having known that that was being built up.

C595: And I think now...I mean, as this thing has come to mind, and I just let it...it move, shall we say. That that went forward. That...in...relation to the...past is that growth of the thing is...I mean, it seems obvious to me...the...two experiences. The...my feeling...about the war and certain unconscious behavior. The...feeling of...having lost the...and a...father figure...a...which became a personal kind of thing. Certainly that ties up as far as I'm concerned with the feeling that I'm sure in fact I can recall it vaguely, having had as a child about the apprehension that, well, maybe it was going to be the end of the world and maybe I'd have to appear and account for my sins. And...well, by God, I was going to have my clothes on to do it, you know. But you see, I mean, there is this thing, this...first, having had a God, and...having lost it someplace on the way. What this feeling I'm sure carried over and...and to a certain extent probably...explains the anger that I...not anger, but sort of dismay and disgust at...that I felt at...realizing that I had again built myself up this father


figure...this story. Which is as far of course as I could take the thing...as it has right now...has real significance at all to me as of now.

T596: M-hm. I'm not quite sure that I get all of it. I'd like to see if I do and you can correct me. That is, that you sense the relationship, I mean it's that vague kind of thing, between that feeling of loss of father, and the way (word lost) yourself for that feeling. And perhaps the earlier, more childish loss of God. And that too, both those tie in somehow with the feeling of sort of preparing for the last judgment and you'd better be in as good shape as possible even with your clothes on in order to meet it. Does that catch something...?

C596: That catches it, yes ! That catches it, yeah. It's...I think that what I'm trying to say is that it's almost the same childish feeling, you see, which...

C597: It's not only that it's related to it, but this is almost the same feeling...

C597: M-hm. Yeah.

T598: It's not a feeling in an adult, something like that you had when you were a child, it was that childish feeling all over again.

C598: Yeah. Which...I dress up in a more acceptable and civil fashion...in kind of a...and I...it means nothing to me, except that...as I said, I felt it should be said. That a...a feeling that it's a tie up someplace. A...

T599: In other words, this situation isn't that I see this as important, and want to portray it or what not. But it's almost that you did not see its significance but that somehow something in you sort of impels you to bring it out.

C599: Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of, let's get it said. A feeling that...something of the same thing probably lurks...it's probably there yet, you see. I'm not sure. I'm not sure of it. It's...but I mean, then again you see, to me it's interesting. The...these thoughts moved...after the particularly difficult time that I had here...when I mean, I was concerned with...a father. Or something that hadn't happened to me, say. So...I...it's...

T600: It's a very real thing just to look at it...

C600: Yeah.

T601: ...from that angle. And these weren't thoughts that you "thought" in that sense. They were thoughts that "moved". Thoughts that moved in you rather than that you sort of consciously directed yourself toward. And yet they did crop up when you'd been kind of wrestling with some feelings about father relationship.

C601: And of course they solve nothing. These thoughts solve nothing.


T602: M-hm. They lead to no immediate or specifically helpful goal. Is this part of a song?

C602: No. No. No. No. No. No, this isn't quite singing.

T603: Okay. (Both laugh)

C603: In spite of the fact that I'm vague...no, no. This is...no, this isn't...no, this isn't quite my song. No, this is...this is movement.

T604: M-hm. M-hm. (Long Pause: 10 minutes)

C604: I think there's a...I think I've mentioned this before. A...loosening up process taking place. First might...just get loose. (Both laugh) But I feel a...a certain...a certain awareness. (Pause)

T605: Sort of loosening up that means being more, more alive in yourself, more...

C605: Yeah. A certain kind of awareness. A...kind of letting things come through. A...(Pause) and a kind of conviction that...(Pause) what I have to do is...well, broadening the scope of my consciousness...to be able to handle these things. Which I think is...why I'm not really concerned too much about wanting to know why I'm impelled to face certain things. A...feeling of...well, of...regardless of what comes through, so to speak, and from...bygone times. It's not really important. But important maybe insofar that it will help me to broaden scope of...consciousness. A feeling that the...the answers are not to be found in the... subconscious, shall we say.

T606: M-hm. Sort of the feeling that if you can sufficiently broaden out this aliveness to an awareness of what comes through and what you experience, then somehow that is the important thing, not the things that happen to come through from the tie-up, is that...?

C606: That's right. I feel that those things are only important in that they do come out. But they aren't the answers and the...(Pause).

T607: Are you saying there that it is perhaps important that they be able to come through, but the content of what comes through isn't the particularly important thing, is that...?

C607: Yes...yes, I think maybe, to restate it, it's...it might be well to put it in a more negative frame. The...it isn't important what isn't going to come through, see.

T608: M-hm. There may be a lot there that doesn't come through and that really doesn't make any difference.


C608: That's right. A kind of root realization that my life is going to get through this and...I mean this relatively conscious kind of plane and it's a question of broadening that kind of...of a...course I wish I could be less vague. I suppose I could tie it up in a...a kind of...Marxian approach to the thing, but then I would just be trying to prove that I can talk logically, and why? It might be just simply kidding myself; (Pause)

T609: That is you get almost to the point of kind of reproaching yourself for not...hoo-king some of this up more logically, or being less vague about it. But then each time, "no, no, it may be vague, but this is what you mean". The rest might have a shade of artificiality or unreality to it if you try to give a nice intellectual difference.

C609: That's right. Know at least another interesting thing, and this...this is again just interesting, just shocking. I find myself of course talking about therapy. I find I can speak very intelligently about non-directive therapy, until I get here. (both laugh) That I don't profess I convince people that it's quite scientific. And what happens to me then? And yet I mean I always go back to thinking to myself I'm convincing. Just the importance of the whole thing. That's the secret of it. A...just this...just letting whatever comes come, a...

T610: That part I gather is more than intellectual, huh? Something you really feel, hm?

C610: Yeah. My relationship with my daughter I feel is constantly improving. And I'm not working at it. It's...I have some...what seems to be very peculiar feelings sometimes. A...feeling of...well, of...things are just pretty doggone much her problems. I mean there just really isn't very much I can do. And... course I didn't feel that I felt a terrible sense of guilt...a...feeling of wanting to do something about it. Now I...I don't even...I'm not even conscious of wanting to do something. A...kind of feeling, well, it's just pretty much your problem. And...yet, I mean, I'm sure that she doesn't feel any sense of rejection or that I'm not interested.

T611: Sometimes some of your feelings even surprise you a little, but there is this ... m-uch more than a sense that you can't do much about her problem is the sense that it is her problem, and you're content to let it rest that way.

C611: That's right. Yeah.

T612: And somehow that has improved the...guess the relationship has improved.

C612: Yeah. It has improved. I...without, as I said, I mean consciously...

T613: You haven't been working at it.


C613: ...working at it. To...I mean, doing things that I knew would relieve certain tensions. And you know there hasn't been that. And...her attitude in turn has certainly improved. I have a feeling once in a while, I mean this is what annoys me a little bit too, is because it probably should have happened long ago. That...she's beginning to see me as a...personality, you see. And to really care a little but what I might think. And I mean really sort of...value...value my approval, rather than sort of, well, just demand it. So I mean, that part of it is of course...remains to be seen how strong it is. But I...it's something that I haven't worked on.

T614: As I get that, it's the feeling that she looks upon you as the person whom she might respect or whose attitudes might make a difference to her, not because you're her mother, but because you're another person. Is that...?

C614: Yes. Something like that. A...

C615: The way you mentioned the annoyance, I gather that's not annoyance at that, but at the fact that it didn't happen a long time ago.

C615: Yeah. I...I mean this...just that it's...really isn't too flattering...to have someone suddenly decide that you're a personality. And it isn't annoyance, it's just a sort of amusement really, certainly...

T616: Seems to you that you've been together so long and she's just discovering that I'm a personality.

C616: M-hm. (Pause) You know, I'm much less concerned. I've...it's as though, where she's concerned, I've grown a little myopic. You know what I mean? Don't see too well. A...(Pause).

T617: M-hm. In regard to her, there are certain things you can overlook? Is that what you mean there?

C617: I mean I just don't see as brilliantly and as clearly and as...nothing is magnified right now. I mean, it's just better relationship. And...and of course when she is cross and she does get in a tantrum, cause she does have, it doesn't devastate me.

T618: M-hm. That part doesn't become magnified and very important to you.

C618: Yeah. That's right.

T619: I see our time is up.

(Arrangement for next appointment)



(one week later)

C620: I had an awful time getting here today. Oh, dear. Oh, boy. Have to pull myself together. Well, I got along without you for a day. (Long laugh)

T620: Didn't find it fatal to skip an appointment?

C621: No, I really didn't. Sort of testing myself out. Although I was conscious of a well, shall we say, a kind of behavior that...might be because I'm just one (word lost) or might not be, a...kind of pickiness, I found...myself needling people which I haven't been doing for some time. A...a fault finding. A...as though I might have enjoyed stirring up some trouble or to just...

T621: M-hm. You thought you were jabbing people a little and whether it has anything to do with not...with not having one appointment, you just don't know.

C622: Yeah. I don't know. And I...I mean, I was conscious of it for today, and I mean that I...it had started that pattern probably Friday, and just kept it up all over the weekend, just needling...anybody and everybody who would let me. (Pause) And enjoying it. I'm not...

T622: But you're pretty sure it was nothing specific to the person cause you just do it to anybody. And you did get a kick somehow out of these jabs of needling.

C623: Well, I didn't stop doing it, you see, even when I catch myself...

T623: M-hm. Something sort of telling you to continue.

C624: M-hm. Yeah. (Pause) Now of course here I am again, back in the feeling of not really getting anything done, you see. Which seems to have followed that. Kind of… as a conflict, a...a sense of feeling better. I mean from from many a-a-areas, certainly I mean, far less compulsive. Far less tense. A...a much better kind of feeling. And yet on the...and yet an awareness of...of...I don't know, of just not getting anyplace. Of...being sort of acutely aware of… my own inadequacy, my own lack of confidence, my own...feeling of...now directions. There's sort of a feeling of, of...is it wasn't necessary, if I didn't have to go anyplace, a-a-anyplace of course meaning, hitting upon some kind of an action planned...I think I'd like...I'd like the way I...feel.

T624: M-hm. See if I understand that, 'cause it sounds a little contradictory. As though on the one hand, you sense an improvement in yourself, a kind of easing and more comfortable in a number of...

C625: Oh, definitely...


T625: ...number of ways.

C626: Well, I mean, I just...remarkably so.

T626: M-hm. And at the same time, you feel as though you sense even more sharply deep flaws in yourself, your inadequacy, and so on and so on. And yet the kind of overall picture is that except for something definite in the way of steps or action or plan, where it's demanded of you, you'd be quite content to stay as you really are functioning these days, is that...?

C627: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's remarkable...well, in fact it's just well not to feel so damn compulsive. I mean, this... well, just sort of taking things for what they're worth. I mean, at...face value, so to speak. I mean that...not being terribly concerned and...and tense about things.

T627: Have a feeling that you have a better notion of what is weighty and what is not, and that...M-hm.

C628: That's right. And then of course there's his feeling too which I haven't experienced of being able to say what you have to say even if it's rather unpleasant. And...and not feeling this terrible emotional kind of a...devastation, a...see, all these things are good, I think. And...but then of...there is of course this...awareness, this...feeling of, well, now, this is good, but you're just sort of not functioning and I...at...full power, so to speak. You're...sort of as though I'm saying to myself, well, now look, some of your behavior is very wrong. It's...and wrong is not the word. I mean, it's very...it's just very neurotic. And...and I can't quite make excuses to myself now. I mean I'm just sort of aware of it.

T628: But you like quite well the fact that for instance you can let out unpleasant attitudes without it being a matter of great tension and distress and so on.

C629: M-hm.

T629: And yet I gather when you sort of stand off and look at yourself, that you feel that, oh, but you have such a long ways to go, and so much of your behavior is neurotic and so forth. And I'm trying to understand this... I think you're trying to understand this too...what sounds like a double feeling, and really seeming so much more comfortable with yourself on the one hand, and in another sense, so much more critical of yourself.

C630: Yes. And yet it's a dual thing. And to try to restate it again: I ...I'm partially quite pleased, I mean, quite...I mean I'm experiencing a..a sense of maturity that until now I could practice intellectually, when I would push myself into it, but now I mean it's just a part of me. I mean, it's something that's there. And I like it very much. But then on the other hand...and the only way I can describe it is a kind of


awareness. And your term critical, I mean, it's...I don't even feel terribly critical. I mean it's there. I...I feel that it's not good. And I...can't quite make excuses to myself, see.

T630: More that along with this sensing and experiencing of maturity which you like, is a much sharper awareness of all the things you feel and do. A lot of those you feel need some change. Is that it?

C631: M-hm. M-hm. I mean that if...if I'm to work things out...(pause) And then of course I have this feeling that this part, this...I mean, which I feel is quite neurotic, really. Mean, it's just...well, I mean, a..part of myself just will not face like facts, is what it amounts to. I feel that the...the difficulty is...somehow bound up with my sense of...inadequacy and...a lack of self confidence. You see, I mean that, to me again only two terms. I prefer, in thinking to myself, in feeling...this, not even to use those terms; just to admit, which probably explains to me more what I, I mean, I'm not critical actually. I'm just admitting.

T631: M-hm. That you're more keenly aware that there is a part of you that somehow doesn't want to face the reality of life, is that...?

C632: Certain aspects of it, I would say. A...the, I don't know how, what to...how could I state it. (Pause) Well, it's somehow to me sort of...tied up in actions, and I'm not sure at all what I mean. A kind of doing something about something.

T632: There is, maybe is a keener recognition on your part that this part of yourself want to face certain aspects of life in the sense of doing something, taking some kind of action, doing something about it.

C633: M-hm. (Long pause) And strangely enough I'm not very concerned. I probably should be and I'm just not. I sort of have the feeling that...you know, it took a hell of a long time to get like this. And...well, I just don't feel pressed for time, I, a...a kind of feeling that...well, I think I've said before, I can't push. It's...

T633: You seem to have quite a deep sense that things within you come in their own time and at their own rhythm, is that...?

C634: Yeah. I'm not terribly concerned. Course I, I wish...I mean, the...the...partial feeling of...well-being that I have...encourages me. I mean, it's...a wish.

T634: M-hm. It makes you eager to achieve the goal, and yet not impatient to achieve the goal.

C635: Yes. There's this sense of...of not being pressed for time. (Long pause: 2 minutes) I think that I find it interesting...this is recent...my contacts with people. It seems to me I'm much more keenly aware of...of...those things, I mean, which are on a sort of a non-verbal place. I mean, I'm more aware of probably tenseness in … them.


I'm...acutely aware that it sounds sort of...ridiculous to say...how armored and rigid so many people are. I mean, I'm sure that that kind of thing existed before, but...I'm sure I was judging people on a verbal kind of plane. And now, I mean, it's...I find myself becoming...just keenly aware of this non-verbal kind of whatever it is that people seem to communicate to you. And...and because of it...it seems to me I'm, I've, I feel much easier, much more...acceptant, and acceptant without the connotation of...begin tolerant in a...and of course I...I find it very interesting, very stimulating, very...and of course, I'm, I mean, I'm aware, I'm terribly aware of the...rigidity that I find, I mean this...(Pause).

T635: You sense much more all of these unspoken communications, but that one particularly strikes you.

C636: Yeah. Really... sort of amenities somewhere. (Pause) This is apparently one of those days when not too much gets done, just a kind of...(Pause).

T636: Not so much a day of achievement as it is some other quality, hm? (Pause).

C637: Well, it has to be done my way. That's all there is to it. I...just don't know ... I... have a...a friend who comes to the center... a very, very good friend. I'm very fond of her. And... we have...occasionally compare notes. And...I was rather relieved to...find that...she too, occasionally knows what she's going to say, and then says something entirely different. So... probably not hopeless.

T637: Feel kinda good to realize that her plan sometimes, her intellectual notion as to what was going to happen went awry in the situation.

C638: Yeah, m-hm. Yeah. I-i-it made me feel...well, perhaps it was... alright.

T638: Sort of accepted more in yourself when you found that she'd had the same experience, too.

C639: (Pause) I think it's important. I really do, I mean, to...for me, to just allow myself to become gently impelled.

T639: It's important that you just kind of wait for something to move instead of you trying to move it. Is that...?

C640: Yeah. (Pause) I think there's less danger in...in that kind of thing, I mean it's...I don't know if...guess danger's the word to use. I've stated it positively. I think a person is more apt to...see this kind of thing all the way through to...to rebuild. (Pause) I don't want to solve my problems intellectually, that's the main thing. I know that someplace...it's as though, I mean there's been a broadening in my scope that makes me always conscious of that.


T640: Even almost have some kind of inner wisdom that warns you against that kind of a...pathway.

C641: Yeah. (Pause) I think when that takes place...there's always danger of breakdown. It isn't solid. It's...(Long pause: 2 minutes) I've been asking myself recently...why it is that I...I don't feel the need or the desire to...discuss personalities here. It would seem...I mean that it would be an awfully good opportunity to...take people sort of apart. And I've been trying to...to understand why. I haven't quite decided. I mean, it's...I'm convinced of one thing. It...it isn't in any sense of nobleness. Because I can do it outside of here. But...I'm never quite sure why. But there just doesn't seem to be any need for it.

T641: Don't feel any of that gentle impelling toward doing that kind of thing.

C642: That's right. It was brought home to me very forcefully Peggy who said to me, what do you say about me? Well, I realize that while...there are probably a lot of things I could be saying, and I'm not. (Pause) And I think where my husband's concerned, I've gotten, the idea somehow has communicated itself. I don't know how. But I'm just not...just not now in anybody's personality but my own.

T642: And you feel that in some way that's been communicated to him.

C643: Yeah. He felt it very keenly I'm sure. I think, I mean, he is just...now, I think he's probably a little bit resentful that I am so completely...self-centered in... (pause) But I've thought about that and... just recently really. I mean that I come into contact with...personalities that I find very frustrating that occasionally bring out feelings that, I mean of bitterness. And yet it just doesn't seem a part of anything I have to say here. Course it occurs to me now that it...it's probably good. It's a shortcut probably. It seems to me that one could spend a lot of time...on...a lot of time sort of living other personalities before they would realize that they had to turn inward.

T643: M-hm. In a sense then it's been wise to follow your inclination there just because it's...perhaps focuses on the thing that you would, anyone would have to come to eventually.

C644: Yeah. Not that I think it matters, really. Well...course I know what's happening, I'm building. This is the strangest thing; honestly, it's a pattern, you could say. A definite rhythm: I'm building and I know it. I don't know when the words will come. I don't know from what area, from what...it really is.

T644: There's just a lot you don't know about it, but you do know that this is a getting ready and preparing for something.

C645: M-hm.


T645: From what direction it seems or what it'll be, you're content to wait and see; (Pause).

C646: Course I'm beginning to understand many things that I...I was, that were only ... intellectual ... feelings before. And I think I can well understand in my own case, if there was any attempt at forcing this thing, by a...second...party, I would probably become frightened to death and just run. Well, we'll wait.

T646: Let's see.

(Arrangements made for next appointment)


THE CASE OF MRS. OAK/BAFO18th Interview(two days later)

C647: I got a ride over, so I wouldn't be late.

T647: I see; (Laughs)

C648: Well, there's first of all my ritual done. (cigarette, etcetera) Well what are we going to talk about. I didn't want to come today. I just didn't want to come. As I've a kind of closed up feeling...

T648: A sort of pulling away from this whole thing at this moment.

C649: No. I don't know if it's a pulling away. I don't think of it in a sort of pulling away. It's a kind of bedeviled feeling, if you can get what I mean. (Pause) It's a counterpart to this thing that I've talked about before ...I think of feeling just awfully good in certain areas, certain parts of me. And...then having this nagging...consciousness of having to do something about something. A...a kind of a...recognition, a…a certain prompting to action. And since I'm not at all sure of...oh, I'm sure of it; that isn't so. But since I don't know how to...let it...since I can't take action, there's this kind of...bedeviled feeling. It's...sort of irrational temptation to well, let's forget the whole thing. Oh, I'm feeling pretty well, feeling pretty good, and...and all of the time of course knowing that I wouldn't.

T649: M-hm. Let's see if this is a little closer to it...the feeling being that if I come in here, I may find myself doing something about this something, and at the moment I'm not sure whether I want to. It would be very comfortable to say, well, things are pretty good, and let's not bother with that. Is that...something like it?...

C650: Yes, something like that. Except I think that I'd really like to do something about it too.

T650: M-hm. I get it. By no means a one way feeling. That is, it's...

C651: That's right. But it's...I think bedeviled is an awfully good way of...for me anyway. It tells me what I mean. My feeling for instance about not wanting to come...was a...the feeling, sort of, well, if I don't, I can't push this...consciousness of not all, of all not being well inside. If I go, I'll talk about it. So I mean, it's not completely negative, I don't think.

T651: Coming holds the possibility of opening up some of those areas, of doing something about them, and that's what you want. At the same time it's what you don't want. (Long pause: 2 minutes).


C652: For instance, there's I mean, e-e-even in minor things. I mean, I think I mentioned once before that the fact that I was...symptomatically more neurotic than I had been before. This thing of wanting to go back to bed. And of course being desperately tired. Well, I know I'm not desperately tired, see. And I, I know why, (mumbled phrase) and I mean, a feeling that probably even in, in that, even from the...point of view of attacking a symptom, I probably ought to be doing something, you see. And...feeling that I will; and still not doing it. I think I feel quite strongly that it isn't vitally important, but there's...someplace again a kind of impelling force or something which is calling for action.

T652: From that impelling force, such as even things like...the desire to go back to bed, and sleep more, and so on, with sort of a notion, now, here, that is neurotic; you don't, really, you're not really that desperately tired. There's a feeling that you ought to explore that, do something about it. At the same time, a tendency not to.

C653: That's right. A...well, it's more than a tendency. It's just a...

T653: Nothing happens, hm?

C654: Yeah.

T654: M-hm. (Long pause)

C655: And there's a kind of knowing that...as I said, that's just...just, I mean, it would be attacking a symptom. But...there's this feeling of starting someplace. (Pause)

T655: As I understand there, it's the feeling that you ought to be doing something about some of this makes you feel, alright, that's a symptom, but...I could begin anywhere. Is that...? Or I could begin anywhere if I really wanted to. Maybe that's more the sort of thing.

C656: No. I don't think that's quite what I'm thinking...it seems to me that what I'm saying is that it...that that would be a place to start. I mean it...I wouldn't even begin to...think that it would solve anything...except maybe...open up a...a channel for action, maybe prove something to me that I've, I can take it.

T656: M-hm. That is actually exploring a thing like desire to go back to bed might quite conceivably lead to some channel of action, of further understanding and so on.

C657: Yeah. Something like that. It...(pause) I mean it all seems, it all seems to point to me... completely...lacking in confidence. I...just completely. But in a...a way, I mean, that I can't put my finger on yet, a...well, I don't know.

T657: That isn't too clear or too specific, but you have this feeling there that the cause there somehow is the feeling that: I'm just not the kind of person I could believe in or have confidence in.


C658: No.

T658: No?

C659: No. No.

T659: That isn't...

C660: No, that isn't it.

T660: ...the feeling there. Alright.

C661: No, that isn't it. Because I believe in me. Mmm. Certainly do. No, it's something else.

T661: That is quite far off the beam, because you really do believe in yourself.

C662: Well, I do. Why, I think I've got awfully good stuff. I mean some terrific stuff. No, it's something else. It's something else, it's...it's a kind of...life adjustment. A...it's something else, that's why I can 't put my...

T662: M-hm. But you do feel quite strongly that's one thing that it is not, at any rate. That is, it is not a lack of belief in yourself, I mean, you really do believe in yourself, and that you have the stuff and...

C663: I...I'm convinced of it.

T663: ...that you have something to contribute, hm?

C664: I'm convinced of it. Not with any...sense of...kidding myself, or a...kind of...conceit. It's just that I'm convinced of it. I mean, in...measuring up, say; and...well, I just know it.

T664: Just a quiet firm belief in yourself.

C665: Yeah. Well, this is something else. (Pause) It's...it's as though something...so-mething has...something has broken off.

T655: Sort of a split some how. (Pause) You find a lot of feeling associated with that thought.

C666: Oh, yes. I mean that thinking is simple, thinking is obvious. We can say the basis of all difficulty is the sexual. But what good does that do me? I mean I'm...I can say to myself, well, it's a...frustration, but...it doesn't solve anything, (weeps) until I can...know...somehow pull this thing together.


T666: That you can say that the base of all is the sexual frustration and so forth. But what good does that do you is the question that really hits you then. (Pause)

C667: I guess there's sort of an experience of...taking into consideration all that you don't know, and having to work with that. It's...(pause)

T667: I'm not sure I get that.

C668: Well, to try to restate it, it is...I know, mean that I, I think I know, I mean I can say this is causing frustration, which is...causing my lack of self confidence. But it seems to me what I, I actually have to work with here is not what I know, but it seems that the tools...that the only way to pull things into shape is to work with what it is I don't know.

T668: M-hm. M-hm. M-hm. Feeling that somehow the only solution to this kind of issues is to deal with and work with the things that you don't now know.

C669: This is...I mean, this is...(Pause) It's almost like handling a puppet. All the strings are there, and you have to really know all about these strings. But for some reason or...or other...several of the strings become twisted, and in order to make this...doll perform as it should, you have to use all the strings, because you don't know how to untwist them, you can't do it. But they're still all there, and you know it.

T669: M-hm. M-hm. And it's all potentially in good working order.

C670: That's right.

T670: Even though one may be completely baffled at the time, on how to do the untangling which seems necessary.

C671: You see, sometimes I get so close to the thing. (Pause) And that's frustrating.

T671: So tantalizingly close.

C672: Yeah.

T672: You almost have it in your grasp, or almost understand.

C673: Don't know. And then there's this (words lost) I believe it's going to pop one day, and I'm somehow going to know. I just don't think that it'll come with fireworks. That's...(Pause).

T673: It may be frustrating to feel that you almost have it and not quite; and yet there's a deeper confidence that...it will emerge, it'll come, with or without fireworks. (Pause).


C674: It was awfully close today. It's very, very much like I remember saying a long, long time ago here, that the puzzle...and of course as I go on there seem to be periods like today when, by golly, the thing just is going, something is moving, getting the thing all pulled together, and then, by gosh, the pieces are just lost, completely lost.

T674: They feel so nearly in place at one moment and then seem to fall apart...and...

C675: It isn't falling apart; it's when pieces are lost. I...that's my feeling.

T675: There's a feeling that it can't quite all go together, 'cause some of the pieces aren't there.

C676: That's right.

T676: Haven't been discovered yet.

C677: You know, I've found...I just think I've spoken before of a kind of loosening up. I nearly did talk, I mean, of one...I have never discussed problems with people. Well, I just didn't. It just...I...always had this feeling that...well, sort of the old gag: if I were intelligent enough to accept their advice, I probably didn't need it. But I've been experimenting. I wanted to find out whether I could talk about problems. Whether I-I-I could talk about sex problems, which I mean, I...I can certainly discuss with all of...mean...the way people do now. But of course not my own. So...I tried. It was quite easy. But absolutely a waste as far as I was concerned, a complete waste of time. Well, pointless. But alright, I proved to myself that I could do it. Which of course, I mean, is just...maybe I'm always looking for proof to things. I...many times I sorta chastise myself for being what I term so unscientific in my approach... mean, maybe I'm looking for confirmation that...well, that I'm either right or awfully wrong. But this was sort of proof to me that, no, the solution to that is again something on a non-verbal level. It's something that's got to take place. It's something that no amount of talking or...or advice or...or even a thought out...a thought out kind of behavior is going to do anything...much for.

T677: So that seemed to you like certain, another indication of the fact that perhaps you were loosening up more (cause you talked about some things you hadn't talked about in the past and so forth). But it also brought the very deep feeling that...the answers that you're seeking in this area aren't verbal answers. They're something within your own experience.

C678: That's right. It's something on a non-verbal level, which I suppose is what we mean when we say, an emotional thing. (Long pause: 2 minutes, 45 seconds). Each time I hit a...well, that sort of peak it's definitely the same thing. I'm vaguely


conscious of a...a kind of shock, a...and when I say shock, I...mean it in a...very technical sense, not a...a kind of embarrassment, or a, I mean, in a sense...

T678: You don't mean morally shocked.

C679: No. A kind of shock that...if we could measure it here, I'm sure we'd find...effects my whole nervous system, a...and it's coupled with either a feeling of pleasantness or unpleasantness. But I have this feeling, I mean, my deduction of the, what I feel takes place is that it's almost as though...there were impulses of new thought being somehow forced through, somehow a broadening.

T679: M-hm. At any rate, when you...when you hit one of these things that's very real, it seems as though it affects all of you, your whole nervous system, your whole organism. Almost as though it was creating new channels.

C680: Yes. A...kind...that's my deduction. I'm not conscious of it now. Later, I mean, I will get this feeling of a certain broadening of consciousness, a...not because I'm thinking of it. It'll sort of...of come to me fleetingly and go. I mean, a...

T680: Something that just happens, not a product of thinking about it, something. M-hm.

C681: That's right. (Pause) In fact I hadn't even tried, tried before even in thinking to...to put what I feel...into words, but again, I mean, I'm saying what I feel impelled to say, and I...I felt that now in a way that seems very clear to me...a...(Pause) I think there's a...certain element of fear that has to be in experience. Not as...I mean, as time goes on, as I understand them better...I...probably not so much.

T681: That each one of these pretty vivid experiences brings a certain amount of fearfulness with it.

C682: Yeah. (Pause) And yet I can handle them which again implies a...a kind of...confidence in myself.

T682: Fact that you can cope with them and assimilate them and so on...is another evidence of the basic stuff within yourself.

C683: Yeah. M-hm. (Pause)

T683: Almost the feeling perhaps that you're strong enough to broaden and change.

C684: M-hm. I feel slightly resentful of the word change. I don't know why.

T684: Doesn't quite name the feeling as it exists in you.


C685: Yeah. A...oh, I do know why. I mean, because you said things that the...the implication that...I mean, in spite of the fact that I know better, you would want to change me.

T685: M-hm. M-hm. M-hm. There was a real resentment at any change coming...

C686: Yeah.

T686: ...from...outside.

C687: Do I see you on Monday?

T687: Well, you may.

(Arrangements for next appointments)



(nine days later)

T688: Well, I seem to have a terrible cold today. I hope I don't give it to you.

C688: I don't catch colds as a rule, so pretty safe. Well...I just think I'll sit and gripe today, just gripe. I just...everything in the world is wrong. (Pause: 1/2 minute).

T689: Just mad about every aspect...(Long pause: 1 1/2 minutes. C: weeps).

C689: With you here, I should sit today and just do a Q test on myself. (Pause: 15 seconds).

T690: I'm not quite clear on this. Because something routine would be more...

C690: Yes.

T691: M-hm. Rather than to really let these feelings out seems almost too much. (C: weeps. Long pause: 11/2 minutes).

C691: I'm not crying because I feel bad. I just feel so damn frustrated.

T692: M-hm. Blocked, hemmed in, frustrated. Comes closer to being tears of anger and frustration rather that...feeling bad. (Long pause: 5 minutes. C: weeps).

C692: I think probably that will help. (Pause) Well, it's the very damn...the situation at home. I mean, it gets me down. It gets me down. And I can understand why it's...hard to talk about it. It just seems that it just...so many hundreds of thousands of words spoken on the subject that it, both of us are not on the beam. Talking about it just seems silly, it just...(pause).

T693: So much tension and so much talk, but the talk doesn't seem to do any good or have any point.

C693: Mmmm. (Pause).

T694: If I understand you right, that's one of the reasons why even talking about it is difficult perhaps. Seems like more words, is that…?

C694: Well, something like that. (Pause: 50 seconds). It's darn difficult. And then it ...it seems to me that I'm beginning to...to feel that...the problem...the problems and problems, is...one more of...attitude, than...than in anything that's actually done or not done or...or said or...


T695: M-hm. This is what goes on on the surface, but it seems as though the things that really matter are the attitudes under the surface. Is that...? (Pause: 1 minute).

C695: First for example, now...I can assume or I would say, let's say that I am as wrong, as much at fault in every a-a-area that my h-husband seems to feel I am or that I-I think...I have the feeling that if it were possible, and I don't think it was possible, to...change...just completely. Oh, not completely now, I...but to...meet the requirements, shall we say. I don't think that would solve much. I really don't

T696: If I get that, changing to meet someone else's requirements...that doesn't represent a solution.

C696: I don't think so, and, and yet I...ask myself whether it's...fair to draw that conclusion u-u-until the...proposition has been...tested.

T697: Mean by that that you feel that perhaps you should change in the way someone else wants...and try to do that before rejecting that as a road to solution?

C697: Well, I...I didn't say that I thought I should try. I-I-I said I...I ask myself whether, it's, it's fair to come...(Pause: 1 1/2 minutes). Well, I was all...I was all set to give up this and... (Pause: 40 seconds).

T698: Thought you didn't want to continue here.

C698: No. I ha...no. No. It's not...no. It's...(Pause: 10 seconds) I feel I should. I really should. If for no other reason than to...I mean, it seems to me the only important one. The...it's getting pretty clear that I'm going to have to make the decision. And...they ought to be rational ones. And...I question it right now. Whether I-I can make them. But (Pause: 10 seconds). Which seems to me good enough reason for being in therapy.

T699: Then I was really quite wrong before then, because in your own mind, and in your own thinking, you feel that the need for rational choices and decisions on your own part and perhaps, a very important one, make it wise to continue therapy.

C699: Certainly. (Long pause: 2 minutes, 20 seconds). Well, on the other hand I think...I mean, I think I've said before...my husband has some ideas of what therapy should mean. Well, I...well, maybe he's right, but I don't know. But...apparently it's not...taking in my case. Now...(Pause: 15 seconds) it occurs to me that my decision to...throw this all up, was...was not sincere. I mean, I know...well, I...it was something I...didn't want to do. And it was...it was probably a method of, of striking out...of...and sort of pointing out, well, okay, you, you...had your say, you win. Sort of a...well, hope-you're-satisfied kind of thing.


T700: So what you were feeling was: Okay, I give in. Now do you think you've won anything?

C700: Yeah.

T701: But what you said was: Alright, I'll give up therapy. That something of the difference between the...?

C701: Yeah. What I said was...it's...it's a little too...too darn tough to...adjust to the, to the experiences of...therapy, and...be made to feel that it's...well, just sort of a waste of...time and, and to have...I mean, to be judged for it.

T702: M-hm. You say that it's...a double burden has gotten added there. I mean, that meeting the issues of therapy itself is tough going, and costs plenty in terms of psychological struggle and so on. And then to have the added feeling that that's being judged as no good, and not worth while, and not working out the way it's supposed to...that makes almost too much, is that...?

C702: Yeah. I mean, yeah. Except...except that there is a shading to this thing. I never really...really meant that it was too much.

T703: M-hm. Even taking feelings at their fullest, they never really meant that.

C703: Yeah. (Pause: 1 minute, 10 seconds). Then...when I...when it is a question of attitude, and when I...calm down, I mean, I can...understand where he would feel that way. And...would...certainly be happier...about the whole thing. I mean, if you have an idea, a...premise of how these things would work, and a...in my case, I mean, apparently aren't working that way...and I say apparently because really I don't know. I don't know. It must be a...pretty disconcerting thing. And, and...I don't know how I would react. I...just don't know whether I would, would...stand on the side lines and...and cheer. And feel that it was a fine thing...I would be willing to finance it. Now, I don't know how I would feel.

T704: M-hm. Then you can see how, if he felt that quite specific goals were the aim, and doesn't see those being achieved, that would be upsetting and disturbing to him. (Long pause: 1 minute, 2 seconds).

C704: (Words lost)...the, the...for me...the frustrating thing is...I don't know quite how to put it...to...allow myself, somehow to...to get caught up in this...these attitudes of his, of my own, and, and...involved in the, the...nerve wracking conflict of...intellectualizing when I know it...it's just...it's impossible.

T705: You feel annoyed with yourself that somehow you get sucked in and involved in that and...and struggle with him on this intellectual level, is that...?

C705: That's right.


T706: M-hm. When you know, within yourself, that that's not where the issues are.

C706: That's right. It didn't solve a thing. (Pause: 10 seconds). I don't know. (Pause: 40 seconds) Course I was...I do know, I mean, I know lots of things. But...it seems to me...it...mean...it seems to me I've been saying this over and over too...that...changes in behavior...would be pretty superficial. (Pause: 1 minute, 10 seconds) Really...there isn't any point...and yet I do it, and...a... you're...in...keep fighting the idea, the actual thing, I mean, these...too tense, too rigid, too righteous, too...too...doesn't mean anything. That's what I've been fighting for years. Just as he has been fighting my faults. But it doesn't mean anything.

T707: For you to verbalize about his rigidity and tenseness and so on, just doesn't do a damn thing any more than his verbalizing about your faults.

C707: Unh-unh. (Pause: 35 seconds) Just doesn't solve anything, and that's absurd. And I actually think it is sort of a...cheap outlet.

T708: M-hm. This gets you feeling that it's almost a cheap substitute outlet.

C708: That's right. (Pause: 1 minute, 10 seconds) But I don't think I should stop this right now. Mean that's (words lost) just...I have a tendency to...sort of do...just spiteful...things. Not to other people...I've always been rather shrewd in...not ..-.well, in seeing to it that I didn't actually hurt anyone but myself. But that's kind of childish.

T709: M-hm. That your procedure has been sort of hurt yourself in order to show them. But it doesn't seem very...very really satisfying way. Think I'm going to have to call it a day now.

C709: Oh, yeah. I wasn't aware. (Arrangement for next appointment)(on way out) Peggy has really been feeling fine. She's gaining weight, and feeling very...developed a kind of wart on her heel that had to be removed.

T710: Okay. Bye…



(three days later)

C711: I was just consulting the card out there; just checking up to see what I owe, you know. Coming here 19 times. Oooph! Almost 19 hours !

T711: Kinda shocked at that?

C712: Yes, indeed. (Pause: 8 seconds) That's lot a time. (Pause: 18 seconds) Course I suppose it's...probably took a much longer time to get here. (both laugh)

T712: Nineteen hours looks big one way (C: yeah) and like quite a small proportion another way.

C713: Yeah. That's right. Well, I'm not feeling quite so badly as I was when I was here before. I mean, sort of pulling the things together, just a combination, a lot of things piling up. Was partially physical; it was an abscessed tooth, a...just too damn much. Ah...

T713: Several kinds of things were festering, hm?

C714: Yeah. Just too much. Just, just...well, I think I'm starting to pull out of it. Oh, just in passing...I hadn't realized that I was in quite...in, in such a bad state till I actually got here.

T714: You mean last time?

C715: Yeah. M-hm. I left in a, in a...came in a bad state and I left in a pretty bad state. But anyway it came out here. It's because I didn't have much time to think...there were things I had to do that evening...I realized the, the following day...or I became aware of and interested in two things that seemed to shape up. One...I left...I mean just as frustrated, but having a...I mean, admitting to myself that I...I was, and damn it, I was, and that was all that there was to it. Two, a...a realization, or a feeling that if...well, I think I've...I've stated before that I'm...I'm very seldom aware of you as a...I mean that I'm just not. But a feeling that...that if I had sensed that day any, any...sense of well being in you, I would have probably walked out and taken a long time to come back. Now why that is, I don't know. And my feeling is that somehow or other, you just let my frustration grow naturally, and it wasn't in opposition to, to a...a person who wasn't frustrated, who was full of, of, of...who was just...well, just exuded a kind of well-being. Now, I don't know what it means and it's just one of those things that's coming out. Then of course my...my...


T715: Is this...I am a little curious about that, and not sure that I catch it. Is this it? That if you had sensed in me...any feeling that...well, you're frustrated, but I'm really fine, or you're frustrated but...I really feel good about...something or other, that that would have blocked you? Is that?

C716: I think it would have, it...yeah, that it was...something else followed, you see, this thing. I mean, I have the feeling now...when I left...my feeling...there was a little resentment that cropped up as I, I, I left which was...I'll go into. Because, I mean, it would seem to me, and I'm sure it might seem to a lot of people, that from the standpoint of therapy, the session might have been a complete flop. I mean, it...because there was nothing. I mean, I came in and I carried this feeling of, of frustration and bitterness, and I left with the same sort of, the same kind of feeling. But it was mine. It was completely and I just had the feeling, mean, it sort of...I might even have been conscious of it here. Maybe even your cold helped this thing. That if I had sensed a...a...a ...anything at all that would have...reminded me of a person without problems, it might have...course it's if you see. But it might. Now I say that because, right before I left...you, I said something about being a...a...tired of using words. That it seemed to...it seemed to be just kind of a cheap out...outlet. And you reflected...which...a statement, a cheap substitute out...outlet, which...I mean I wasn't conscious of until some time...oh, that night. Which makes me...me feel that the session was a very delicate one and might have gone completely wrong. Because my first reaction was a complete resentment...a...you see, a...kind of, of a ... well, mean, that's for me to say, see. Which of course, you see, then that...because I was past that hump then...I could see, yes...

T716: You could take it then.

C717: ...that was the reflection, that was the...

T717: M-hm. I think I get it now a little more clearly. That is that...the realization of your resentment later at, at just that little intrusion, as it were, is part of what makes you feel that if there had been anything in this situation to really contradict your total feeling of frustration, why...the interview might have gone very badly. But this, but the whole...almost the whole feeling of the thing was your own complete feeling of frustration at that time. Is that...?

C718: Yeah, something...I mean, that's how I feel now.

T718: Yeah.

C719: I've...I feel that it...it was sort of for some reason, or other, a...a crucial kind of a spot in that it might have sort of thrown me back for a...

T719: M-hm (Pause: 10 seconds)


C720: So of course we'll, we'll never know whether it was a kind of superlative therapy or a bad cold, I expect. (both laugh)

T720: Just to leave that question open. (laughs)

C721: But it's tough going and I'm finding it...(pause: 10 seconds). It's this idea of being more and more confronted with things that I...I just don't want to...have to resolve yet. Mean, I'm understanding things...better, I think. (Pause: 8 seconds) Mean I've found myself mulling all these things. It...people, I don't know why but I'm sure it's a purely accidental thing now, but are volunteering...commentary, you might say, on how they feel toward me and this has been going on for so...with no...probably just because I keep still. Well, I'm, I'm learning, or I mean it's come home to me that I get along well with people, I mean, without trying. And of course it...then I'm forced to...ask myself, well, why, why doesn't that carry over at...home. I mean, I know why. I know the reason, but I mean, why can't I...I...find this...same...I don't know what it is...a kind of...generosity...a...which is really all there is to it. I mean, a...a kind of, of give and...take. I mean, well, why can't I, why can't I...I ... just because I...I am a...halfway...intelligent person...why can't I practice it just because it would be better for me? (T: M-hm) Well, and then you see, I kinda say, well, knowing the, the reasons, the, the real causes, which in face to face kind of, of daily...comings and...mean, these face to face r-r-relationships you sort of forget, I mean, what it, it...really amounts to...is a...a kind of overt behavior, a...a kind of dashing somebody over the head, except that it's...done with words, you see. A...

T721: This thing of, when you realized that characteristically with other people you form a kind of an open, generous, giving kind of relationship, it naturally makes you ask, well, then, why not at home...in consideration of that, if you see causes why it is different; but it made you realize more sharply that at home, some of that relationship has just been...using weapons on each other. Is that...?

C722: M-hm. Yeah. It's...a...

T722: Might just as well be bashing in yourself...

C723: Yeah. It would probably be much healthier. I don't know. It's a kind of...civi-lized...brawling.

T723: More civilized and possibly therefore even more...

C724: More...

T724: ...destructive.

C725: More deadly, certainly. (Pause: 32 seconds) And then of course, I mean, I realize that it's...it's a method. It's a way of avoiding real problems, too. A... (pause).


T725: As long as you're so busy using weapons, you don't have to...look at some of the real problems underneath. Is that what you...?

C726: Well, it certainly offers a good excuse not to. (Pause: 25 seconds) It occurs to me that...in order to begin solving some of the real problems, I may actually have to work on a...on, on being a little less verbally...shall we say, combative. Mean, I may have to try that, so as to...as a sort of test...to see whether it'll make things...make things easier for me...to...to test out, to see that...to...to see if by removing...that…guard, so to speak, whether I can…jump into the more…real things.

T726: M-hm. That is you're thinking maybe you'll have to raise the question in practice, if I lay aside this combativeness, this weapon, this excuse, will it make it easier, more likely that I get the real issues, is that...?

C727: Yeah. M-hm. I don't know whether it will work...or...not. (Pause: 21 seconds) But I think, I kind...I'm going to try it. (Pause: 8 seconds) And see what happens. (very gently)

T727: Seems worth an experiment, anyway.

C728: Yeah. (Pause: 37 seconds) Part of the problem, I mean of the surface problem...-you see, I feel...I think I'm right, I mean, I don't back down on it...that.. . that my husband's attitude where Peggy's concerned, it's not good. It's just not a good attitude. It's understandable. And so...I've argued that point. Feeling...I, I had to, that it was vital, terribly important. But they're so, I'm, I'm reaching a...a peculiar point of view. And I think...I don't know, it might just be...clouded with...a certain amount of selfishness now on my part now. But I'm coming to feel that, by golly, Peggy's problems are Peggy's problems, not mine. Her problem with her father is, is her problem. And that I can't solve it. And I should probably quit trying to. That her problems are hers. I think because I...I-I've been seeing them in...in terms of problems, I've been trying to solve them. Now if...if I can begin seeing it...in...seeing it as a part of her life pattern, her...growth pattern, then I'm, I'm pretty sure that, that I can stay out of it...because, I mean, I have the conviction, who am I to presume, to...I mean, to...to a...well isn't it at the (word lost) I mean, how can I presume? Well, I think maybe that's wrong. I think that maybe I should just...should just...sort of...pull myself over into thinking that it's...it's just something that they'll have to cope with.

T728: That is, as long as you see it as a problem kind of existing out here which has right and wrong answers, then it seems as though you have to throw yourself in to work on that. But when it seems as though...this is a part of her life pattern and his, then it seems as though the relationship they make and build must be something in their hands, not yours. Is that...?


C729: Something like that. And especially I see it where...Peggy's concerned. I mean it's...i-i-it has to be her problem. I think that...and now I'm talking about how I feel...about this thing, I mean, the feeling that it is starting to become sort of, of a part of me on the, in this thing. I think it...it started to grow out of...thinking about therapy. Peggy...would want to talk...about how things were going, oh, with her. My husband, when he was coming here, would talk about it...what... well, I mean, it's alright. There isn't anything wrong in...but the more that I...begin thinking about it, I...came to the conclusion that it's...it isn't just talking, it isn't a...a kind of...a, a, permissive sharing of...things. I mean, I began watching it particularly ...with Peggy. No, it's trying to involve, with someone else. I mean, trying to involve me in her...in what was happening to her. And of course it is the most interesting thing in the world. It really is. And...are times when...being only human, I mean, you say to yourself, my God, what is she saying, see. And you'd like to be involved. And... then I found, well, then, she could also use it as a, a kind of, of a threat, a...something to...make me jump with. A...she would say, I'm not going. And at first it sort of alarmed me in, in spite of the fact that I knew that that might be the pattern, and might continue to be the pattern. And then it occurred to me, well, by God, I am being involved. And just...sort of impulsively, I said to her, now, look, this is your analysis; it's your life; I don't give a damn if you go or you never go. I mean, I can reason with you, but there...it's yours. Well, I mean, it's, it's that again. And...I think it was from then on that I...I actually started to feel that I really meant that. That I...just, I mean that you can just go so far and then it, it seems to me the only thing you can do is just stand around and wait to...mean, if help is, is needed, to be there.

T729: Sort of...sounds as though you had experienced a sharper differentiation between your life and hers. That is, you...yes, at times, [have] been tempted to [move] right in to the involvements of her life, but more and more there has been the feeling that that is her life, and you really mean that.

C730: Yeah. A kind of, of awareness that, that...well, that I just can't solve, that's all. (Pause: 13 seconds).

T730: Sort of an acceptance of the limits of what you can do in relationship to her.

C731: Yeah. And a...feeling that somehow, that...that has to carry over into the conflict between Peggy and her father, a...there just isn't very much I can do about it. (Pause: 6 seconds).

T731: You experience that as just sort of an extension of the same principle that that is hers and you're quite limited in what you can do about that relationship. (Pause: 1 minute, 5 seconds).

C732: And my feeling isn't one of indifference. (Long pause: 3 minutes, 30 seconds). Anyway, I know I feel I've grown a little bit tired of trying to change people's minds with words. Just a little bit tired of it. Just doesn't do any good, and that's all


there is to it, and I'm, I'm becoming, come and more aware that...in spite of all the words we use, we're dealing with something more subtle than that. I was very interested in semantics and I think to a, to a great extent it changed my thinking as a younger person. And I used to feel, well, if you could just get people to...re-examine their premises. To...a kind of reasoning process, it would be alright, it would go. But it's more subtle than that. It's attitudes that...that just somehow I...you just don't know...or you rarely reach with words. (Pause: 15 seconds) Which might sound like I was advocating a Trappist monastery, wouldn't it. (both laugh) But I'm not.

T732: Not that you're completely opposed to words...

C733: Oh no. No.

T733: ...Just that you do not regard them as in themselves the way in which, as a tool with which you can change people.

C734: That's right. (Pause: 14 seconds) Well...nineteen sessions, twenty sessions. (Pause: 25 seconds) I'm very much aware of the real problems, and...I will either get to them, or I won't get to them. But...this certainly as yet not on the...plane where I could even begin to verbalize them...I mean to verbalize them with meaning. I could...you can talk about them but...

T734: You have some awareness of what they are and you could intellectualize about them, but to verbalize about them in any real or meaningful sense, no, that's not yet.

C735: Un-unh. (Pause: 1 minute, 7 seconds) Well, let's see, it was...if I can, see what I can do...about trying to be not quite so combative, just see what happens.

T735: Like to sort of try yourself out on that and see what kind of results if any it does...

C736: Yeah.

T736: ...bring.

C737: For me. I...I have...I've lived with righteousness a good many years. And...I ... I sort of almost have a horror of doing anything...on the...side of the angels, so to speak. Let's say I am doing it for me.

T737: You're not trying to be moral or righteous or...but you'd like to try it to see what it does to your own inner feelings.

C738: M-hm. M-hm. To see if...if I think what I really mean is to see if it will deprive me of a prop, a...something that keeps me from


going further. A kind of defense mechanism that, if I don't have that, maybe I'll have to find something else.

T738: Almost this, isn't it? You're not doing it because you want to be good, but you want to see if laying aside that weapon might bring you more face to face with yourself.

C739: M-hm. Yeah. M-hm. (Long pause: 1 minute, 55 seconds) Well, we'll see...

T739: Okay. Think I mentioned I'm going to be out of town the rest of this week. How about...

(Arrangements for next appointment).


THE CASE OF MRS. OAK/BAFO21st Interview

(seven days later)

C740: I haven't the slightest idea what we're going to talk about. (Pause: 50 seconds) I think I'm...getting a lot clearer in my own mind...about...a, myself, about the kind of a person...I think I am. (laughing) That threw me. That isn't fair. (both laugh) Why should I do that to myself. No, I think it isn't quite as bad as that sounded. I mean I...I think that probably the picture as I see it myself now is...is probably not so far from, from fact. A, a...

T740: That's if I understand your feeling there, it seemed as though you are getting better acquainted with yourself and really getting to know yourself as you are, but that where your first statement would seem to sort of contain the overtone of that's pretty bad.

C741: No, that isn't...

T741: That isn't quite it.

T742: No, it wasn't bad. I mean, what...came to my mind there was this...kind of...of self that we build up. The...picture we see which...might be quite...post-fact or little off from fact. And I said that because I was thinking too, that...I wonder if, if I'm...avoiding the unpleasant things of...about myself. I...I said it because in... in saying it I'm...I felt that the self I was coming to evaluate wasn't doing so badly in my own...concept, you see. And I would, I'm wondering, am I avoiding the...aspects that...probably aren't...too good.

T742: Mostly the feeling is, I'm getting acquainted with myself as it really is, though there's just a trace of question there, am I perhaps avoiding knowing some elements of myself that aren't so pleasant.

C743: Yeah. M-hm. (Long pause: 1 minute, 40 seconds) I think the facets of my personality which I might term difficult, in terms that one would say, well, where I might say to someone, well, I am a...I can be a difficult kind of person. Well, this is going to be hard to state because you see, it comes to me now. I haven't thought about it very much...I think that there...those aspects are...well, almost putting it in terms of...of something functional. The...mean, they're symptomatic of some of the things that have happened along the way. I mean, I just don't feel that they're really basic things. Now that isn't stating it. No, that's not stating it. (Pause: 40 seconds) Well, we'll just have to drop it, because I can't state it clearly, it just...

T743: Does this at all catch that feeling, that these aspects of yourself which you feel to be difficult seem to you to be things that have perhaps developed, yes, but that they're somehow not the core of your personality.


C744: That's it. That's stated more to the...more in tune with what I feel. And I know...I, I have a kind of feeling that it might almost be a...situational. (Pause: 58 seconds) Now, of course, I mean, coming back to the situational...that's rather bad...that's something else. I mean, I...just don't know what I'm gonna do...but I mean, even that...it's beginning to take shape. I mean I'm a, a...it, beginning to see things. And...I'm a little bit concerned in that...not concerned, that isn't quite the word, but aware of the...fact that I'm seeing things in a very self centered way. I mean, a...on with, with a kind of...not...now, I can't say selfish...more...self-self-full, if...I mean, self...the thing in relation to...self. And...I mean, it's something that at least I can start thinking about and, and ... seeing from this aspect, and this, and this, and this, I'm not going to solve it in forty-five minutes. I mean, of that I'm convinced. Ah, a...

T744: You feel completely uncertain about what to do, and yet, it seems as if you do see the situation more clearly, and more clearly in the sense of seeing it all in relationship to your self.

C745: Yeah. Now, if it would seem...it would seem as of today...and of course, I mean, since I...I'm telling myself and I'm saying...a lot, that my thinking on this score has to be...simply dated. I mean, this is what I...I think now I haven't the slightest...I mean, I don't know what my thinking will be on the twenty-first of March or...or from there on in. I mean, it would seem to me that the only reasonable thing to do would be to simply separate. I mean, if, if he was reasonable. Alright, then I mean, there are two problems. And...both of them I mean, I revert again to self. First is this...well, it seems to me, no, which again it may not mean two weeks or three weeks from now. I don't know. The overwhelming idea of...of the...e-economic problem. It really seems overwhel ming . Which of course, I say, I tell myself is the result of my lack of self confidence, etcetera, etcetera. Which...doesn't help, you see, now. I mean, it's purely a kind of a rationalization. But it's pretty overwhelming. Then the second feeling is...a rather involved one. It's...well, anything I say it is, it won't quite be. But a...more or less a sense of guilt. I mean, a...which I haven't actually, I mean, followed through too carefully. I mean that...what I feel is, is a kind of, of... which of course I mean, really doesn't make too much sense, because...why...why should I take responsibility for the...whole...failure...but...I think the sense of guilt, and this just comes to me now...a, is probably a, the result of, of...I mean actually knowing that...I'm the probably the... stronger...person, a...I don't know. As I said, it's a rather involved kind of a feeling. Which is about as far as I can take my...my...

T745: M-hm. Let's try to pick up all of that. (words lost) the...without giving any more weight to your feelings than that this is the way you feel today, I mean, not tomorrow or the next day...it seems to you today as though separation would be the sensible thing. But then you find that you feel deeply lacking in confidence that you could get along financially.

C746: Yeah. That sort of scares me. I mean, it's a...ooooh.


T746: Big bugaboo.

C747: But just the same...I mean, the...my feeling isn't too negative. It...it's kind of a tormenting thing that makes me feel, well, that's really pretty sickly. See?

T747: M-hm. Sort of it's defeating me and I couldn't make the grade? I mean, was it that...?

C748: Well...oh, what was that? I didn't quite...

T748: Well, it just sounded to me as though you were almost saying to yourself, why, you weakling, to feel that way. Do you mean to say that you can't...make the grade.

C749: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of...well, it's...a kind of telling myself, well, put up or shut up. A...

T749: M-hm. M-hm. Then the other feeling that goes along with all this is what you regard as kind of a ridiculous feeling of guilt or wrongness about it as though somehow you are the stronger person of the two and that some considerable share of the burden for the failure would be on you. Is that...?

C750: No.

T750: No.

C751: No. I didn't think that, I mean, you see.

T751: Okay.

C752: I mean, that isn't what I feel. It, it doesn't reflect the...feeling...actually, I'm, I'm pretty sure...and then as I said, I've been giving this some thinking. That's what I would like to do. I mean, I would like to...but...there's a certain sense of...of panic, and panic isn't still the feeling. It's a certain sense of, of guilt in...in what I would be doing to someone else because I feel at this particular moment that I'm probably the, the stronger. Now stronger is not a...good term. No, I...

T752: It's not guilt for what has happened.

C753: No. That's...it.

T753: It's the thought of the burden you would carry if you went ahead. M-hm.

C754: Yeah. I mean, which would...is...I don't know whether I could throw it off; I could...I don't know if...if it's actually...a right..actually normal to feel that...even. (Pause: 18 seconds) You see, that might be, might very well be a...part of a...a


tendency that I've noted in myself...to...sort of beat myself, you see. I'm not sure. I just don't know.

T754: M-hm. It might sort of be one way of just again being hard on yourself.

C755: I wouldn't call it being hard on myself really. It's...it isn't that. I mean, I'm no different from most people who...resort to that. I mean, it's, it's a kind of punishment, I mean, where you punish yourself and then you're quite through with it. I mean, it's...a rather fantastic medium of excuse...which of course has its labels which we don't use. This, I mean, I feel...it's peculiar how you feel...I feel that you sometimes force me into...things. These things are...are sort of shaping up. Not because I don't think I can do any work, but...recently I've had several friends ask me, I mean, point blank, what are you going to do? And I have to tell them quite honestly, I really don't know. I just don't know. I-I-I could say this and this and this. But as simply quoting almost as I've said, what is the use of saying anything when I'm just not prepared for action. It just doesn't make much sense. It would be just a, a...I don't know...complaining, griping or...So I mean, I'm sort of being forced...both by self and...by ...by questions.

T755: M-hm. It's just a little sense of being pushed into this exploration; pushed partly by yourself and partly by the attitudes and questions of others.

C756: Yeah. And yet that is a...since I'm not ready for action, and I'm not, there just isn't very much to say, much to...(long pause: 2 minutes, 30 seconds) There really isn't (long pause: five minutes, 13 seconds) It really isn't too hard to pose or state a couple of problems. And...I was just thinking how...how easy it would be to get answers from somebody. And to rationalize too. In fact I...But then...it doesn't work very well.

T756: You don't want an answer to those issues that are just in words. Is that...?

C757: Well, I think it just somehow doesn't work. 'Cause I can answer them with words. (Pause: 10 seconds) And I don't know. (Pause: 1 minute, 20 seconds) I imagine that's why I don't think...a... (pause: 13 seconds) working kind of a reconciliation could be. I mean, I really don't think it. I think...I think I can practice being as we talked of it before, less overt in my mannerisms. Less ...combative. I think I can. I am of course interested in trying it (Pause: 25 seconds) But I don't think it would really work. Now...that would of course take care of the...two problems which I have: one of getting out into the world, kind of actually supporting myself; and the sense of guilt. In fact I'd probably feel pretty darn...self righteous, which is of course something I don't want to feel. (Pause: 13 seconds) I don't know though about that. I really don't know if it's... (Pause: 28 seconds)

T757: Is this what you're saying there? That you could make certain surface adjustments and you could have certain advantages; might meet some of the issues you've just


described, and you might even feel somewhat noble in making those adjustments. But that the possibility of there being a really meaningful relationship...mmm.

C758: I don't think so.

T758: That doesn't seem possible.

C759: Not really. (Pause: 27 seconds) It just doesn't seem...No, I just can't see it in... (Pause: 13 seconds) Then it brings me...I mean, point...from the point of view of starting from therapy..right, mean, back to the...same area of...I have the same feeling when I...contemplate this thing...of...there's the same area of a kind of, I don't know, just bitterness. That I...I don't know. I really don't know. I...unh-unh...which I feel I would...again cover up. And...(pause: 13 seconds) Then it would crop up someplace else again.

T759: M-hm. In other words, when you think of even making some of these...what might seem like adjustive moves, you're very much aware of the fact that underneath though, there would still be that basic bitterness that you feel and that would be there and would crop up.

C760: Yeah. It would...I would certainly cover it up.

T760: M-hm. M-hm. Yet it wouldn't be out in the open, but somehow or other it would show up. Crop up.

C761: Because, I mean it only, comes out here, I mean, as...as...such, you see.

T761: As what it is.

C762: Yeah.

T762: It only shows up here.

C763: M-hm. So...(long pause: 3 minutes, 15 seconds).

T763: Guess our time's about up for today.

C764: Well, it's there, and my, I might say that a little humor has saved me from...

T764: It's helped.

C765: Yeah. I think it's...I think humor's a very interesting thing. Off color stories have never appealed to me. I mean, just hear them...But there's one I heard some time ago. It struck me as being quite delightful. And yet my common sense told me, well, it's just a story. I've heard it repeated and it's always struck me as being awfully funny. I won't go into it. It's told in a Jewish accent. It can be told very


well. But it involves a young girl who works in a tailoring shop, and periodically would become pregnant and have to ask for time off, so she would have an abortion. And...finally her foreman was quite concerned with her. He kept saying, well, he couldn't understand it. She was a...she was an intelligent girl, and why did she let this kind of thing happen. And...he would insist each time to know who the man was. Well, after about four or five such experiences she told the foreman who the man was. And he said to her, well, Effie, why don't you marry him. She said, marry him?...He doesn't appeal to me. And it just...in the midst of my wavering couldn't help but feel well after eighteen years he doesn't appeal to me. (both laugh) So it saved me. Also explains why I like the joke.

(Arrangements for next appointment)


THE CASE OF MRS. OAK/BAFO22nd Interview(two days later)

C766: Have to even (words lost) (T: laughs) I mean, I think I actually owe you some time today. (T: laughs) I hadn't realized that I had sort of overstayed my time last time. (Pause: 5 seconds) I didn't accomplish anything. (Pause: 15 seconds)

T766: As though it hadn't led anywhere.

C767: Yeah. I haven't done anything so to speak. (Pause: 27 seconds) It seems that by and large I feel better. I'm...except for periods when I'm kind of frustrated and this, even that is better because I can sort of call it by name.

T767: M-hm. Feel that it has frustration, not something else, hm?

C768: Yeah. I feel better. I feel...I realize...I think if...I were to be pinned down, that I would have to say, well, a...even in spite of the fact that there are no apparent outward changes, a...if I were to try to describe the, the difference...in the way I felt when I came in here and now, a...it would be something like...describing a motor that...had been knocking...had been working but knocking. And...it's now coming into a smoother kind of a hum. A...

T768: M-hm. It's running a little more harmoniously.

C769: M-hm. I didn't mean, I (words lost) harmoniously, shall we say, functioning somewhat better.

T769: I see. M-hm. M-hm. (pause) Some of the knock has left the thing.

C770: Yeah. (Pause: 37 seconds) I wonder if I'd probably be a...little bit disturbed a...by the fact that I'm really not self critical. A...that isn't stated very well, but I...I find that...some of the time… a, in fact, quite a bit of the time, especially when I'm with people, finding I'm not at all self critical...And I'm wondering if that's just sort of a stage, or sort of a part of a process...(Pause: 13 seconds).

T770: At any rate you find you're not inclined to criticize yourself, tear yourself apart. And whether it is good or bad, or just part of a process or what, you're not quite sure.

C771: No, I'm not at all sure of it. It's...it...it might be...simplified, probably oversim-plified to the point of saying that I...I find that I...in spite of problems, and sort of serious ones now...having a good time...a...I think what I actually feel is that I don't feel as bound, as restricted as...(pause: 14 seconds).

T771: It is more of a feeling of freedom?


C772: I think there is. And there's a...a tendency I think to...to let it act a little bit as a...a mild kind of a (word lost) where I get quite pleased with my self. And still it's not the...it's...Well, I don't know, just being pleased with myself. But it...it's something like that. I'm not at all sure what it means even.

T772: There's some sense of real enjoyment or satisfaction mingled in with this feeling of freedom on the other hand is that...?

C773: Yeah. (Pause: 12 seconds).

T773: That feels kinda good. (Pause: 20 seconds)

C774: Right then I wondered if that's just a...a new kind of an...escape that I have chosen for myself. It might very well be. (Pause: 10 seconds) I'm just not at all sure. (Pause: 20 seconds).

T774: You tend just a little to question this satisfaction. Is it that you're escaping from something else? (Pause: 1 minute, 40 seconds).

C775: No, I don't think it is. I think...it's a part of the whole thing, of this whole...re-development. Whole...well, I like redevelopment better than that...re ... building isn't...I think it's probably a part of a, a, a...getting ready...in accordance to what I can take. A...a kind of waiting, a...well, bit by bit adjusting a, which… to feel it's pretty much how things could be. A... in this particular kind of thing. Now it might very well be that with certain pressures, the...process could be speeded up. (Pause: 35 seconds) There's a sense of (Pause: 9 seconds)...of change taking place. (Pause: 10 seconds) Which is something I can't (Pause: 4 seconds) ...and...a tendency on my part to...without thinking too much about it, to...be in accord with it. To... sort of listen and wait. And to be aware of... certain phases. So, I don't think it's so much escape, because I have the feeling that if pressure should be put on me, that it probably could be speeded up, or I...I could say to myself, well, well, now we'll just have to see what...this is a big step.

T775: Big in that as you think it over, it seems more that the sense of satisfaction is a sort of a total process of change that you feel and you move with it. That perhaps this is a period of kind of piling up resources, sort of preparing for a new movement in change. Is that...?

C776: M-hm. Yeah. M-hm.

T776: But it really doesn't seem like escape. Something more positive than that.

C777: That's right. It's...I am aware of escape, and I use it. But I mean, I'm quite...this is a little bit too much a part of me. A...too much me to be something that I've...escaped into.


T777: M-hm. This is no dodge. This is really a part of you in process.

C778: And of course when I become objective about it, my only reaction really is, gee, it would be wonderful to know how it really works… a...sort of, eeee, let's run and take our (words lost) (both laugh) But...I can see...I can see this thing; I can see things. Things that I don't really, I mean bring into this you see, that are happening, certain insights that are coming. And... a certain loosening up of this process in dreams, in...but, I mean, it's happening. And as I said, when I stand back, my real interest is, ooh, how...just what to...find the key.

T778: But you're just very much aware of a loosening type of change taking place, and intellectually when you can stand off and look at it to see, if...you knew exactly what made the wheels go round, hm?

C779: Yeah. Yeah. It's simply because I'm not...I've not been given faith. You see I can see what's happening. And I know that there are...reason for it. I feel...I feel and I'm always quite conscious of this, that the main reason it happens is because...I, or the other me...a, if you take the most (word lost) it would have enough...enough of something that might have been termed...a kind of waitingness.

T779: Feel that one basic element in what happens is a kind of a confidence that you can feel in waiting and in letting the thing happen within you, is that...?

C780: Yeah. That's, that's it, and of course I've said before and again I'm just talking: that I don't really believe it makes any difference how you approach the thing. It might be through the process of, I said, she said, they said. It'll...it'll come if a person...

T780: If I understand that, is what you talk about or think about...that that doesn't seem to be the clue to it, I mean, very different...

C781: That's right.

T781: ...subject matters might still eventually bring the same sort of thing.

C782: Yes. You'd hit this path by any kind...of inroad. (Pause: 15 seconds). Which... this has been a thing that has been u-u-under discussion for some time at home. I mean if I've said anything wrong. I've gone into that before. This idea...of what one must bring in to a therapeutic situation. The...my husband's feeling that I mean, one must be...very sincere, very determined...must really want change. Well, the more I think about this thing, the more I'm convinced that actually, it's sort of affected to say, I am coming into this thing sincere, I want to change, I...I'm very determined and very honest. Because, not because they're really just words. And...I don't know. I think it's a...little bit more subtle than that kind of thing. I think maybe if you...just bring in your self, and...just give yourself a chance. That's probably the answer.


T782: If you can bring yourself into the situation and give the self a chance to exist, to be, that seems to you as though maybe that's pretty close to the essential.

C783: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's it. I...(pause) Course I may be all wrong, I...when I'm through, I'll go back to the books. But...I mean, maybe there is a...a kind of...well, working along with this thing that one can...get used to. I...right now, I mean, I prefer, I feel that this is a...a period in my life that is kind of experimental...a...I, a feeling that I am willing to use me. It's just that clear.

T783: Almost in the sense that I am willing to try out me. Is that...?

C784: Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. A...(Pause: 27 seconds)

T784: Just sort of experimenting with the use of yourself. (Pause: 25 seconds).

C785: Course I don't think I...thought that in...doing so, when I started this thing that it was going to crystalize certain problems, a, (pause: 10 seconds) I don't know exactly what I thought...(Pause: 10 seconds) I think...actually what I felt was that I was awfully tired of...a...of struggling. (Pause: 18 seconds).

T785: Feeling of weariness.

C786: Yeah. Weariness, apprehensive fear and...a kind of...well, of...one has to...one just has to go on, I mean, that's the thing to do. (Long pause: 3 minutes, 15 seconds). This is apparently one of those days when not too much is actually done. I don't know. (Pause: 25 seconds).

T786: One of the kind of preparing days?

C787: Yeah. I'm convinced of that, I mean...it's something will pop (Long pause: 2 minutes, 15 seconds). I think...really my relationship with...Peggy has come along on...almost leaps and bounds. It seems awfully good. I...as a sort of proving point, there has been a feeling, well, let's try to be as easy as possible. Let's know if the shoe pinches (?) . And...at times, I mean, there has been a certain amount of...control on my part. But...just last weekend, we just both blew up at each other, and I just let her have it, and she let me have it. And I think it was very fine. I mean, no...hangover, no tensions, no nothing.

T787: M-hm. Somehow that seems like more proof than you'd had before that the relationship really was...

C788: Yeah.

C788: ...better. That...


C789: Much better.

T789: ...you didn't have to hold off from any negative feelings...

C790: That's right.

Y790: ...You just bring 'em out, both of you.

C791: That's right. And I mean, it was a good thing, too. I mean, it was sorta, kind of...saying to me, now, you, you can't run my life. And me in...I in...turn saying, no, I can't run your life, but I can certainly think my own...a... a ... thought too. And I mean, it was a good thing. And...it was not hangovers at all. Fact, sort of ended with both of us sort of laughing because we had become so darn dramatic over a...practically nothing...Which is awfully good. I mean, that...

T791: Feel as though that relationship has really come a long way.

C792: Yeah. (Pause: 10 seconds)

T792: To a point where you can either of you, I gather, be your real self in the relati-onship, and that is good.

C793: Yeah. It won't always be true, I'm sure. Well, because we're both pretty...pretty a, a, vocal and...well, we...probably as we found out finally, we both have this sort of flair, I don't know, for the dramatic, you know, that will...but it kind of...it certainly is...and I think I can see it now in her, too. A...well more of a kind of a growing up. Not...that's only been a very short time, actually. And I ask myself, what, how...how did I...handle that so completely. And still it isn't something I've handled. It... (Pause: 10 seconds).

T793: It isn't something you've handled well. It isn't something that you feel will necessarily be proved. It's something that has a different quality than either of those that is more basically good. Is that...

C794: That's right. But I mean, it's a change that has come to be, in a relatively short time. (Pause: 16 seconds) And I don't quite understand what...mean, how it worked out quite as (words lost).

T794: You can hardly see how the relationship could have changed so much for the better within that space of time.

C795: Well, we aren't going to accomplish much today...I don't think. I'm accomplishing something, of course, but...don't I...I owe you some time which I'll pay back.

T795: If you'll really accomplish things another time. (Laughs)


C796: That's right.

T796: What would you like next week? Monday and Wednesday again?




23rd Interview(five days later)

C797: ...over at my side...(both laugh) I won't feel the least bit rejected.

T797: Okay.

C798: I have been thinking about something just walking down the last block. Something quite apart from my own problems really, but it sort of interested me. I...remem-bered sort of closing last time by saying something to the effect that we hadn't accomplished very much. And then...following it with...but I have. And...it left sort of a question in my mind. Silly because it had been kind of a spontaneous thing. But I just hadn't thought much about it until just now. I'm still not quite clear, but it seems kind of...a...kind of significant thing. I think probably what I actually meant was...something...because I am interested in what is taking place. Taking place to me and in the...the entire situation interests me very much. Not...not only for myself but because that I feel is the kind of thing that might be carried out to groups. Well, I just got to thinking...I think my statement is, would be true of almost anybody who...who had never talked much...a, a, about their problems. What I think I actually meant was this; that there hadn't been any deep probing which is...somehow or other a kind of shared...thing. I mean, something that...I couldn't quite do by myself. But this...this other kind of a thing is a more personalized thing, which probably the...person who had been used to talking wouldn't even say, I have accomplished something.

T798: M-hm. M-hm. In other words, it didn't contain much of the shared exploration of deep problems. But I gather that for a person who is not too accustomed to talking out their real feelings, it contained something very definite and very genuine and significant for yourself.

C799: M-hm. M-hm. Then, then that led me to the step beyond where I realized that I seem either, there seems to be a tendency on my part to...not even to allow too much reflection. A sort of...of...a not that I reject it. Again, I mean, I,...I think that's probably true of the person who hasn't done too much talking.

T799: That there's somehow a kind of a reluctance to get the response of the other?

C800: No. No. I don't think that's it. I really don't think that's it. I mean, I've...that came to me, that was...that thought followed...what I have been...thinking. And...no, I don't think it's a reluctance at all. It's...(Pause: 13 seconds) it's almost as though...at times, I mean, I'm a little bit afraid that a restatement or a reflection might...break the continuity. Mean, that's what I think counts.


T800: M-hm. M-hm. And will interfere with this on-going process. (Pause: 5 seconds)

C801: It hasn't (Pause: 58 seconds) I'm feeling quite good. Good in the sense that I am...well, I'm again sort of feeling what it is that the younger person must feel. A...a sense of...sort of...of doing some things I want to do. A...feeling of...of realizing that...that I shouldn't be tense...about doing some relatively harmless things that I want to do. In spite of the fact that a...there might even be a connotation of selfishness. Simply because...not because it is so. But simply ...because...in the past, I haven't done that kind of thing.

T801: That is, the overtone of feeling that it might be selfish to do this is really something you've carried along from the past. But the real present feeling is that, maybe I can relax and do some of these things rather freely that I would like to do.

C802: Yeah. Yeah. That's...that's almost exactly it. It's kind of...a relaxation. A ... course that's how I feel. And I have the feeling that...maybe because I...I do feel...that way, it will have to be more or less accepted by o-other people too. But it must...I mean, it must...You see, I have a feeling that...a great many of these feelings that I have now...I probably should have experienced around 16, 17. I mean, I can see how a...the sense of...of growth...and...security that a young person could feel, in...sort of making up their own mind to...do something, and...that probably they...perhaps even to be the obedient kind of child, that they might not have done. But in rationalizing it, in, in, in going into the thing, would see that, well, my goodness, I mean, it was, it had to be pretty much their own choice. And then once they had made the choice, it would probably be a pretty good feeling. Now why I didn't experience those things, I don't know. I don't know if my...if what...what I'm experiencing now...is that kind of... thing, except that, I mean, I do have this very strong...feeling that there is a kind of tie-up there. (Pause: 8 seconds).

T802: M-hm. Just that it seems very much that the sense of choosing and freely doing the things you make up your mind to do and so on, and of moving forward and growing, seems to you as though those should have been what you experienced at sixteen, or somewhere in there.

C803: M-hm.

T803: M-hm. That is, as though you're experiencing an aspect of adolescence that you never quite had?

C804: That's it. That's it. And I can't...I can't quite figure it out....I had a great deal of freedom, and I was strictly a hellion, a...mean, I was part of that whole era...the...after the last war, you know, this...and...I think probably what happened...and of course this is just...rationalizations...I think a lot of us, along... about that time, developed intellectually but somehow not emotionally. There was a conflict...I think, it seems to me now as I observe young people now...it seems to me that we, or certain ones of us were much more interested in...in intellectual


things, kind of arty things. And I-I-I don't know, it might have been sort of a...a cover-up, a...a kind of a...a kind of a false hiding place for the conflicts that we certainly must have felt. Course that would have come a little bit afterward. And of course there is this...there is this situation of where I never had any male authority. And ... (Pause: 8 seconds) which many people need to...or maybe it's a natural kind of thing; there isn't as much conflict when you do have it now, I don't know.

T804: Not very sure how to put that, but you have a sense that that lack of any paternal authority in your own experience somehow left out something important or significant for your own development. Is that...?

C805: Well...it's some complex things. It's more than just that. Now...actually...I feel very strongly that there shouldn't be a paternal kind of an authority, I mean, that it's...now I think that...that it's not conductive to...to the growth of...people. I-I-I think even the most benevolent kind...it carries in it an element of...danger. But that's what I think as an adult. I think the..I think actually what I'm saying is...that since that seems to be a pattern which most people go through, that that is what I am experiencing now. And I think my first...first introduction to that kind of thing...came with as, as I started to meet...men. Now, I think...had I have known as a child my...frustration might have been changed. I can't tell. I think on the other hand, if...if I had...married a person who...who didn't inspire that kind of feeling...of course, I didn't you see. I...I chose that kind. Which of course means something. I don't know. I thin-there are tied up there...I don't know whether talking it out will...well at least...it comes out.

T805: The situation is complex and the feelings are complex. Maybe had some of these experiences and reactions to authority come as a child or as an adolescent, the picture might have been different, but actually with you, although you now have quite settled opinions against an overstressing of paternal authority, yet somehow your first acquaintance with that and reaction to it was in marriage.

C806: That's right. And I mean, as I look back, now, see it's...well, the only way I can express it is, is kind...a kind of identical situation that young people must find themselves in. I remember being completely astounded to...to suddenly realize that...in some things, a good many things really, I actually knew a great deal more than my husband did. I mean, it must be just what the child feels, when they think of themselves, whooo. Well, here I've always thought that...my parent knows everything. See?

T806: M-hm. M-hm. The feeling of real shock at discovering that actually I'm as competent in the field as...

C807: Yeah.

T807: ...as he is, or more so.


C808: Just a kind of...well, I mean, just...sort of unbelievable.

T808: M-hm. M-hm. A really incredible truth that hits you as it would hit the ordinary adolescent in relation to his father.

C809: That's right. (Pause: 15 seconds) And then of course there's the one without any doubt, I...I've never had any problems with women at all. There has never been this...feeling of...I mean, I've been a kind of equal, a...taken at face value. Never feeling any strains.

T809: It was easy and not competitive.

C810: That's right. (Pause: 1 min. 3 sec.) Then I think...I think probably my…as I look back and try to see the thing clearly...my attitude toward men has been sort of a...peculiar one. Although I like it, and I wouldn't like to lose this. Men of my...my own a-a-age level...I've always been able to...I don't know if I can express it. It's a...whatever I say won't be it. But been able to...establish awfully good friendship with. And I mean, awfully sound, awfully basic. A...a kind of, of...trustworthy thing, I mean, a...which is now, which as I said...it isn't what I'm saying. It’s...not this kind of pal thing at all. But I mean, something awfully sound.

T810: Some sort of deep communication, is that...?

C811: Yes. A kind...almost a kind of acceptance of a kind, which I...probably isn't even too flattering, say. But I like that, and I wouldn't like to lose that. But yet I see, in my...I mean, I've come to see, that...well, it isn't quite customary. I mean it...

T811: Something deep about it and something you wouldn't want to give up at all, and yet you feel it's not quite the ordinary relationship between a woman and men her own age.

C812: That's right. With, with...men older than myself, which, I mean carried me back to this same thing, I always sort of avoided...and yet, you see, again, when I ...came to marry, in spite of knowing other men, I married a man twelve years o-older than myself.

T812: Feel there's a real...and a contradictory element there in your feeling of avoiding older men, and yet when it came to the point of marrying one...

C813: Yeah. I can remember even at...oh, Peggy's age...telling myself that young boys bored me. Then as I got older, feeling that young men did, they just didn't have the...the intellect. Course, you see, I mean since, I have come to realize, I mean, how...how just plain silly that whole thing was. Not silly. I mean, that there were reasons for it. But...(Pause: 59 seconds) That's a...it's a strange business that...and yet...it really doesn't bother me so terribly much. And the reason is this: that along


with, for the first time, I mean, being able to...see these things for what they might be...and... actually verbalize them, they are followed, I mean, or right along with...these other feelings of sort of growing up, see. I mean, it's...Today's my birthday; I'm forty. (Both laugh) It's just so...sort of...my goodness...So I'm not too concerned if it...and again, I think it's interesting, this...it...it's terribly interesting, these little spurts that I have which, which I'm almost convinced is something that should have happened, oh, years and years and years ago. A...these things happen to me. I'm not conscious right then and there. But then it dawns later. This kind of thing. Well, now, that was a step, it was a...a movement...and then, sometimes following there will be a little more insight into why, or what.

T813: I'm not quite sure I do get that when it's this...you mean, you see...is this what you mean? That you see certain, certain changes taking place in you and then only afterward do you really see what that was, or what it meant? I'm not sure...

C814: Let me try to give you a...a concrete e-e-example. Saturday night, I was with a friend's children. The friend had gone to the doctor's...and I was staying there. And...my husband called up and said, are we going to the settlement fireworks tonight? And you didn't tell me anything about it. To which I...prior to this, I would have felt as the child would probably feel, oh, my goodness, now what have I done. I have...I am in...I'm not being favored, you know, the...I mean, just...

T814: I'm a bad girl.

C815: Yeah. Yes. To which...and I would have reacted...I mean, just like that. I would have tried to...cover up. But my whole attitude was one of just being relaxed, in which I said that a card came, in short, you didn't indicate whether you wanted to go or you didn't want to go, and it slipped my mind. Personally, I...you know I'm here, and I can't possibly decide for you. If you want to go, go ahead. I just can't go tonight...which...you see, again, I'm sure, is what a child feels. I mean, what he finally has to do is say, well, I'm sorry, but I just can't go tonight, and that's that. Well, and...I wasn't consciously thinking this thing out. It wasn't probably until Sunday, that I felt, well, my goodness, I didn't tighten up. And...well, I just behaved the way I wanted to behave. And then, see, I mean, as then, as I start verbalizing, I get this feeling, this sense of identification with a very young...a, I mean, a...what I probably should have experienced when I was very young.

T815: M-hm. Think that makes it very clear. So that you...you may behave in a certain way, and then only later realize that was a step from childhood into adolescence.

C816: Yeah.

T816: And that is the way that it seems as though it did belong back there somewhere.

C817: Yeah. And I think, I think again, what is happening...is that I latched on some-place...I don't know where, and I don't know how...and I'm convinced that that's the


secret, you see...I latched on to a kind of, of waiting the thing out. A...the only expression I can find for it is a kind of waiting. I'm not intellectualizing, you see. Or I mean, I'm trying desperately hard not to. And I don't...again, I don't carry consciously, or intellectually, what happens in here out. It's...I just let...I just go out, and just sort of, of let...forces take hold.

T817: You wait, and let what happens within you happen, and then sometimes as you look back at it, it's quite interesting to see what has happened.

C818: Yeah.

T818: But there isn't a lot of intellectualizing about it in the process, as I get it.

C819: Now, I also feel that in time, that will...pass. Mean, where there'll be a...a connection between the...the rationalization of things and the kind of...better emotional...but right now, I mean...I feel that something is rebuilding. And I'm, I'm just sort of letting forces...

T819: You're trying not to re-...to tamper, but to let that rebuilding take place.

C820: Yeah. I think I probably could take hold more. I...some things, I mean, I...some things...which I've brought out, I mean, feel...feel a...an urge for action, a...as though action has to be a part of the thing (Long pause: 1 minute, 40 seconds). Well, I'm talked out anyway.

T820: Okay. Shall I see you Wednesday?

C821: Fine.

(weather talk)


THE CASE OF MRS. OAK/BAFO24th Interview(two days later)

C822: Just tried to pay my bill.

T822: ...is six dollars.

C823: I think probably some more of the pieces are starting to fit in. I'm not sure. (Pause: 10 seconds) I'm thinking that probably my, my...the...emotional conflict that I've felt with...Peggy...I mean, never actually felt, but apparently existed, was...seems to tie up...with what I'm led to believe and accept...is a part of this...emotional...well, just part of me that just didn't grow up. Immaturity doesn't quite express it.

T823: But it has to do with this adolescent view.

C824: Yeah. I'm beginning to...see that is...was probably a part. Actually I don't think I was ever aware of a real conflict until it...came out here. A...kind of...competi-tiveness. Then I think it's of course very interesting that once it came out, it was quite shocking and...quite bad. It seems to be over.

T824: M-hm. That is, you mean when it came out, it was finished, almost.

C825: Yeah. But of course where it is interesting is that in the...the peeling off of that or the opening up, somehow...somehow put me in a position of...being able to remove the conflicts that I've felt within myself from her, and almost...almost begin a...a process of acting out the adolescent spurt of growth myself. You see. I mean, I'm just beginning to see in a certain area what has happened.

T825: That is, when you...I think this is what you think. When you saw that the competitiveness with her was really a conflict in you, then it sort of seemed to...not dissolve in a sense, but at that same time, or maybe as a part of that...I'm not quite sure...you began really living your own adolescent feelings to some degree. Is that...?

C826: Yes. It's something like this. I...you see in going back...It seems to me that our relationship was always good...a...that is, a...basically good kind...Then the...about the past year, when she first became ill...she had this...trouble...I went into an almost complete reversal of...everything I had ever felt and thought. Mean, a kind of wanting to control...which is, of course, I mean, was...is understand-able...because I mean the thing in itself constituted a kind of shock which I wasn't quite able to cope with. Well, it was during that period when...I...I-I was sort of come face to face with...attitudes that I...I knew weren't good. Which I hadn't seen before. Now they must have been there. But I hadn't seen them...til...then, first they could be pushed into the...background by...the feelings of...anxiety that I would have. You see it was of a cover up, a… And then, of course, you see, I think


that because the basic feeling was always good, there came a kind of knowledge that I'd have to do something. It would...a knowledge that what I was feeling would communicate itself and be very bad. Then as soon as I was able to...to hit upon or to bring out the...feeling...I mean, almost nameless kind of...competitive feelings...a...well, still sort of nameless things. There was a...sort of a...relaxation. A...well, just...sort of non-existent.

T826: You just no longer had to be on guard so much, felt more relaxed, is...?

C827: That's right. A...not that...no, no, that doesn't quite take up the...It wasn't a conscious being on guard. Sort...the...actually, actually what I would feel, prior to that when I began to suspect these things, was this feeling of anxiety. I mean, the...And unless one has felt it, I mean, that's all that you can call it. Apprehension. Which...you see, there was a certain logical basis for. And I mean, I could explain it. But then...When I got into the thing, the...the relaxation that I'm talking about actually had more to do with this, with my feeling of apprehension, more than a not being on guard, a...more than a...a kind of...rationalization. (Pause: 18 seconds).

T827: No longer had to...no longer found it necessary to feel that apprehension, because it isn't that conscious either. You just found yourself no longer feeling that apprehension.

C828: Yes. I mean, I...there's still a concern, which is not the same thing.

T828: As I get the thread of all that you're saying, you're trying to sort of look back over and get the picture somewhat clearer of the path you've come in regard to yourself, and yourself in relation to Peggy particularly, is that...?

C829: M-hm. Then of course that led to this, as I stated this, rather interesting thing. This being able to...to grow in an area that I'm beginning more and more to feel that I just didn't grow in. And...(pause) interestingly enough, without the...without, shall we say, having to probe, having to relive...experiences which...mean, what's the use...I...then somehow, I mean, doesn't...I might have been a little skeptical. I might have felt, well, probably one must probe, I mean, pretty deeply. If I hadn't had this awareness, without having thought it out, which is awfully important. That's awfully...I mean, that's...well, that...it's sort of just a way of knowing, but...an awareness of an identification with the feelings of a very young adolescent person.

T829: As I get that, the thing that really carries conviction, the thing that makes you know that for you this is a path of growth, is the kind of thing you have vividly experienced in yourself in that respect, quite apart from how you might intellectua-lize about it, or what you might think the factors were, and so forth and so forth. Or what you might think the roots of the difficulty might be. But you've actually experienced yourself feeling like a young girl growing up and meeting...


C830: Yeah. Apparently.

T830: ...some of these issues quite genuinely for the first time.

C831: Precisely. Without any sense of...embarrassment. A...without any sense of... well, feeling well, this is too childish for me. I'm an adult. But you're kind of a person...No. Just this...a...even without amazement almost. Just... a certain knowledge.

T831: Would this catch something of the flavor of that. That you're not reliving your childhood or adolescence. You're living it. And without the feeling of shame that you should be doing so at your age. Or without anything but the feeling that you're actually living through some of those experiences right now.

C832: Yes. I think that's it. A...I think it's interesting...I...it's interesting to me that I caught it. I somehow latched on to it. Now, I don't think that it's important, see. I may never have had to know it. See. But it's interesting...it's...well it's...it's quite an experience. Now...

T832: If I get that: it's fascinating to watch it, and yet the watching it is not the important thing.

C833: No. No. I mean, I...I feel I might have had the experience, and if it is grown I might have grown without even knowing it...without knowing it. But it's...it's probably is just my good luck that I've been able to, well, as I said just sort of latch on to it and...well, it's...makes the experience more valuable, I think.

T833: M-hm. So that the fact of latching on to it and seeing it with some clarity, that's just an interesting profit that might not have happened to come along, but the...

C834: That's my bonus.

T834: Yeah. That's the bonus. That's the way one can kind of think of it.

C835: Yeah. (Pause: 13 seconds) I think there's a lot to be done. I still think that. I mean, we have this whole sexual area that I just...I just don't know how to...start. Not because of...reticence. But again because I have the feeling that...it'll, it will have to, it'll have to be worked in. That just as I...one area I slipped into, and made...pretty good progress, really, I think. Now that is an area that I have the feeling I'm...I've got to have to...there...well, I'm just not ready yet. I don't know.

T835: Is this the kind of thing that you're saying? That you know perfectly well that there's that whole area of sexual relationships and so on, that at some point will be...you'll work into it, but that it's...the expression of that is something that's got to happen, not something that can be forced, and that hasn't happened yet. Is that...?


C836: That's it...that's it. I know it's there. I know it's a part of the whole. And it all ties in. But it's...let's see, it's...it's as though...well, I just haven't found the jumping off spot yet, the...the way, the method.

T836: The pathway into that has just not so far seemed to open up for you.

C837: That's right. Anything I would have to say, I would have to be more or less intellectualizing. I may find that...I may even have to start it that way, and sort of...trap myself. I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm...well, this will sound...I know sound peculiar when I say that I'm letting myself begin to work on it. That is...

T837: Think that may sound odd, but it really represents a real experience that in some way you're beginning to let yourself work on it.

C838: Yeah.

T838: When that may come to expression, that's a different matter. (Pause: 1 minute, 15 seconds).

C839: Well...(Pause: 58 seconds) I think and this is quite beside the point, I think I've figured out...that...may not, of course...the...statement which will every once in a while pop up, why I said...I have accomplished something, we haven't...still, it seemed a little significant to me because it hadn't been planned. It...it...

T839: Popped up.

C840: That's right. I think what I meant was this. And there's a little story behind it. I was just talking that day, it seems to me, at a pretty even kind of a keel. Not much feelings. And...like a kind of...good feeling, wasn't too disturbing or too...intense. And...it just, it seemed pretty much mine, that...something for me. Yet I...kept wondering why. Well, and I pushed it from my mind, but I just...it occurs to me that...what I meant was something I've, I've...to a certain extent learned to experience myself, was, and it also explains here, it isn't very flattering, really (laughs) one of the reasons that when I first heard of...non-directive-therapy, it appealed to me. The...well, I mean, I felt...I knew something about it. I think my feeling for it started 'cause I've never been very good at...small talk. Mean, it just doesn't come off very well. Not that I think it's...it's good for people. But mine just sort of falls flat. And...I like people very much. And I know many people. And...have many telephone calls. Well, this started back some time ago. Well, in a sort of self defense, I would, well, I would keep quiet just because most people can talk more than I can. And I learned kind of to think my own thoughts, and yet, as I said, because I like people, it was kind of hypocritical thing to do. I mean, it was don't want...So I found myself and I find myself quite often, not with people that I'm very close to...that doesn't work. But I find myself really not paying too much attention to what they're saying. But...a kind of feeling what they're feeling. And I think that that was what I meant that day. I've accomplished something. I've


talked. But we haven't. Because I really wasn't feeling very much that...you know, of a shared kind of thing. And it's sort of there again, you see. Sort of hit me as a...well, one of the things I...But I think that's what I meant, that in the, in the therapeutic ...situation there are times when it's I, and times when it's we.

T840: M-hm. There are times when it is really a shared relationship of feeling, and there are times when it is you, with your feelings.

C841: Yeah. Never consciously. I'm sure.

T841: No. You just assumed...

C842: Yeah.

T842: ...here's a different character at different times.

C843: M-hm. I could...if I didn't know...that I were...that I'm a person that, with con-complex problems...So you don't like it either. (both laugh) I think that probably today I could have said, well, goodbye (mentions name of counselor) I don't think I'll be back. But...it's an area which I feel, I mean, I sort of feel is, is, can take care of itself now. It'll...it'll...I'll run into some snags I'm sure. But...sort of think we can get along with that (word lost). I mean, using just the symbol there.

T843: That is, just the...quite a little of the feeling tone at this point is, okay I've looked back over this path I've come. And I can move ahead. And I don't think I'll need your help any more. But then I gather there is also another smaller feeling...that opposes that by saying that you're a complex person with complex problems.

C844: Yeah. I mean, I have the feeling that...that I might...I might almost make the mistake...you see. I mean it's tempting. I mean, it's not tempting. No, I shouldn't say that. But I might have...made the mistake. Because I feel...I somehow feel today that in a certain area, things have been pretty well straightened out and put into order, and the...the rest in that particular area will be more or less, I feel, a mechanical thing, I mean, a...something that is going to go on of its own force.

T844: Think I get the feeling that in regard to one area, rather important area, you feel, I've gotten the help that I need. There's still more to do. This thing will keep on moving. But...it can move within me without the help of another person. And that you could almost make the mistake of feeling: so, I'm through.

C845: Yeah. That's it. But there's a...I mean, I might have said to myself, that's it; I've licked the problem; I can take on from here. But then there’s...I mean, but there's this feeling that...of having gotten this...picture of structure. And that...I mean, I feel I've done a remodelling job...which is okay. But there's still, I mean, there's still some building to do. There's still some tearing down to do before I can actually pull the thing together.


T845: And that tearing down and building is in another part of the house.

C846: That's right. That's right. And almost as though that at this particular point there isn't even an adequate passageway.

T846: M-hm. It's almost a walled-off portion of the house.

C847: Now if we could keep the passage blocked permanently, I think I'd be okay. But what are we going to do in case of fire, see. Mean, that's...so that's the problem right now.

T847: Might you not regret it later in other words...that you...

C848: That's right.

T848: ...if you were satisfied with this remodeling job and the fact that the rest of the place is walled off. But in case of emergency, that might not be so good.

C849: Yeah. It might just take me right back to (words lost) Well... (Pause: 25 seconds) There's an element of...well, we'll see how good my predictability is in this thing...an element of feeling that...of taking this thing in sections, and of hitting bad spots, and then a rest, and bad spots and then a rest. Well, I have a feeling that that's the way the next problem is going to come too. It might not even be as bad as I anticipate.

T849: You may be fearing some difficulties that aren't there, but still there's likely to be the rhythm of kind of pain, recuperation, struggle and rest...when you get into it.

C850: But I do have the feeling that it's sort of that today somehow is volume one. And I wouldn't want to hear it played back. (Both laugh) I think it'll be the end of all the books when I can say, oh, you can play that thing back. It would just bore me. (Both laugh).

T850: Then you'll know the volume has really been closed.

C851: That's right. I wonder if I could skip Monday. (different kind of voice)

T851: Wednesday at 2:30?

C852: M-hm. That would be fine.

T852: And you want to make it just once next week, or do you want me to try to see if we can find another time?

C853: Well...maybe just once next week. And then... the following week twice.


T853: Yeah. Okay. I'll save 2:30 time for the following week.



(seven days later)

C854: ...leave coat and hat up here?

T854: Did you get a peek at it?

C855: Yeah. It must be fascinating. Well, my vacation that I was going to take Monday, I stayed in bed. (both laugh) (pause: 15 seconds) This has been kind of a dead end, just been...dead end. (pause: 13 seconds) You know, I'm convinced that a great deal of the problems and conflict...it's a kind of situational thing. (Pause: 14 seconds) Even in the saying it, it sound kind of ridiculous, kind of...but I...as though...in another situation, I...it wouldn't be having the same kind of problem. Not because it's...the fact remains that the situation is what it is and...maybe in a different situation, I'd have different problems. But...kind of feeling that...it's really not all me.

T855: There is quite a deep feeling along that line...that this is not all me. It's the situation in which life has placed me.

C856: Yeah. And still, a...rather private conviction that...there isn't anything that I can do except with the me.

T856: That the problem may be to quite a degree situational. And yet that only thing that you can deal with effectively is the me that is in that situation, is that...?

C857: Yes. I...that's pretty much what I... it's a... a kind of thing that the situation is a...secondary thing. And that...well, a kind of feeling that...(pause: 8 seconds) that even in changing it, it still has to be me, a growing conviction that...that situations don't change very much. That people within...situations that don't change to… make the situation more to your liking. They might but it's highly... doubtful.

T857: As I get this then, situations don't change much, and actually people don't change situations very much. But that a person in the situation might change. Is that...?

C858: Yes. Yes. What I mean I think exactly is this. And it's a simple thing, and I don't know why I'm having so much trouble trying to verbalize it clearly. In my own...situation, what I'm saying I think is this: that it isn't going to change because I would like to have it changed, so that it would be a...an easier environment for me. The people concerned aren't going to change so as to create a better situation for me. Now they might be able to do it if they wanted to create a better situation for themselves. (Pause: 13 seconds)


T858: So, as I get it, that leads to a certain feeling of determination or inner conviction on your part that...perhaps you can work with the self of yours that's in that situation. Is that...?

C859: I think that's the only thing. (Pause: 13 seconds) I think...to a certain degree, what has happened is this. I've reached a stage where I'm better able to live with myself. Now...this is a big step really. I mean, it's a...shall we say, pleasanter. However, by being able to live with myself is...is not the answer...as long as I have to live in an environment with other people in which there are conflicts. Mean, it's not enough. It's easier for me. (Pause: 14 seconds).

T859: There is the satisfaction that comes from somewhat more inner comfortableness, but that still leaves the area of...the relationship with others as one that...

C860: Yeah.

T860: ...you feel you'd like to approach.

C861: Yeah. Actually, actually, see, I'm not accepting the...situation. I'm not. And yet I'm actually not doing anything about it. I've learned...I don't know, it's...

T861: It's clear enough that in your feelings you don't accept it. In your actions, you...don't find yourself doing anything about it.

C862: That's it. (Pause: 15 seconds) And of course that's beginning to bother me more...

T862: That kind of discrepancy sort of...

C863: M-hm.

T863: ...is increasingly disturbing.

C864: I mean, now, why, why in hell don't I? See?

T864: Would this be it? That if your feelings are clear, why in hell don't you behave in accord with them?

C865: That's right. What you'll find don't...(pause: one minute, 7 seconds) That is...that it seems to me is the next...problem to tackle. Why don't I? And I honestly don't know. (Long pause: 2 minutes, 30 seconds) I'm quite ashamed of myself in the night. I just was...I wasn't feeling well, and I began to go over this whole thing...And...it was just this...well, feeling of...frustration, weepiness...and...don't know, just involving all kinds of things about myself...feeling desperately sorry for people that I didn't even know. It was just sort of a wild kind of a thing. And...then I began, you see, I mean, forcing myself back into...well, being sorta back...This much you know. And then...being confronted with, well, why don't


you do something? And not knowing why. (Pause: 19 seconds) Fighting...fighting all kinds of...possible reasons, some of them flattering, some of them very...uncomplimentary. And yet actually the part that really gets me is not being able to...say, well this is the reason. Or it's...it may be a combination of this and that...Actually not knowing why. And just sort of filing it, just giving the whole thing up in a sort of a complete frustration. Sort of thinking, oh, to hell with it. And...sort of dozing off to sleep. And...of waking with sort of a jolt. With a...wishful thinking, shall we say? I don't know, but it was a something...a feeling, well, you can do something about it. You can, and you will. And then, well, I mean, sort of... well, shall we say, maybe hopeful. And I mean, I...that of course explains that, and I said how it was...well, kind of...desire. But even that would be...healthier than what I felt.

T865: M-hm. I'd like to see if I get some of the feelings there. That first there was this feeling of just extreme frustration and real sorrow for yourself, if I understand that right. And...then the consideration, well, alright, your situation is that, and what are you going to do about it. And the feeling of absolute uncertainty as to...how you might move or even...even uncertainty as to why you don't move.

C866: That's the point. Mean, I'm very clear in how...in the steps I could take, I mean, in the...various ways...

T866: Different pathways.

C867: Yeah.

T867: But why don't you take any one of them. That's...M-hm...

C868: One of those...

T868: And that's where the mystery really resides...Then this later feeling, which I take it didn't have much...specific content in it, but just the feeling: but I am going to take hold of it.

C869: M-hm. But it's just sort of a momentary flash, I mean in a...but which was, I don't know or...say, it's wishful thinking.

T869: One can intellectually discount it if you wish, but even so, it was quite a striking feeling as it occurred.

C870: It reas-it did this for me. It made me feel that if...if I could get a...a feeling of even a kind of...momentary...I don't know what exactly to call it, possibly strength...a...when I say strength, I don't mean the...the noble kind of being a strong person, but a...I (pause) Well, I don't know, something to latch on to. A...that if I could feel that...after such a...terrifically low spot...and that it was hopeful.


T870: If something within you...responded in that way at a time when you thought you were feeling very, very low about it, when you were feeling very, very low about it, that was kind of a hopeful symbol for the future. Is that...?

C871: Yeah. (Pause: 14 seconds) That is, it wasn't a kind of elation that one sometimes feels when one has been feeling low, and just sort of...I don't know, blood pressure rises or something and that you begin to feel sort of...optimistic. No, it was something else. It...my experience has been...whenever I begin to latch on to things, to catch hold, there's a little element of humor. A...mean, it...I don't know, it isn't humor, it's a...it's something. I...my own personal theory which just makes sense, not at all, but it's the way I think of it...I think whatever part of the brain that produces these feelings of mirth, must be made up of awfully tough protein cells and they stretch, and...it's easier, I don't know, it's easy give. And the...snapping back is almost painless because they're so strong. And it was that kind of a...feeling which probably means nothing to you, but is how I sometimes can in a sense explain things to myself; I mean, can almost do it as a...I know it isn't to be too bad because they're stretched there, as soon as I can feel this, the bit of...I don't know what it is...humor or mirth...

T871: M-hm. As though some toughly elastic part of yourself can look on and even feel a little smile about some of this. As though within itself there resided kind of a confidence that...ability to snap back to restore itself somehow. Is that...?

C872: Yeah. And I've experienced that...oh, many, many, many years.

T872: M-hm. M-hm. There's a core of yourself somehow that can stretch without breaking and...still look with a light touch upon both you and life.

C873: Well, anyway, that's sort of the feeling that I had when I... (Pause: 23 seconds) Then I don't want to give up on this thing. I...I think I've...I think I'm coming to the point where now I want to know why...what with, why it is I don't do thing. And I don't know where to start.

T873: You're not at all sure of the way, but you feel, that all things considered, you want to try and move ahead. (Pause: 40 seconds)

C874: And you know, although it might sound, it might sound to a third person, that I'm right back where I started, I'm not.

T874: What somebody else thinks, you think you know better.

C875: I'm not. I'm all...I'm a different...guy probably. (Both laugh)

T875: You're off on volume number two.


C876: Yeah. This is a tougher one. It's because...this one, I think, is, is actually much...of it...I was going to say, much more me. The other one was of course me. But it's...as though before I was dealing with a...resultant kind of a thing. Something...that happened because of. Now I'm...it's as though I'm the of of the thing. And...it's tougher because I have a feeling it's...it entails action.

T876: M-hm. This seems more difficult both because it's closer to the core of you as a cause of things, and also because you're probably going to have to act in some way.

C877: Yeah. (Long pause: 5 minutes, 45 seconds) Apparently the pattern is pretty much the same I guess. The feeling...at this point...some interpretation would be a good thing. You probably know...and...might give me a chance to argue the point. A...I've felt that before sometimes, you know...in the early...sort of... well, you know...and...

T877: Kind of a desire for a lead, even if it's a mistaken one. Even if it's one you wanted to argue against.

C878: Yeah.

T878: That...

C879: I...I...

T879: That might be helpful in getting under way. Is that...?

C880: That's right. I...I've felt that before. It's...couple with a mild sense of resentment. Of...I mean, a feeling that...well, a kind of feeling that you know...I mean, a...not too strong, not too...

T880: Yeah. But a little bit of feeling that I know and that knowledge is not being made available for use, even though you might reject some of it. Is that...?

C881: That's right. Course I believe, I actually believe that...when I'm in my silences, you see, these things are sort of turning over. These seemed sort of...I, actually, see, I know. And...and sort of at that particular point kind of using you...'cause I found myself thinking as...I sort of point out of the thing, well, I'll have to find out for myself on your time. A...

T881: M-hm. M-hm. M-hm. Yes, I think I get a little flavor of that. That is, a realization that somewhere within yourself you know. Otherwise you'd have no basis for knowing what to argue against or about if I should interpret the situation.

C882: Yeah.


T882: But also a little resentment that somehow I should...that I'm not contributing more at this point to that process of discovering it. Is that...?

C883: Yeah. Yeah. But I think what it probably is, what it probably is, is...is a resentment that I might quite logically and...and with...certain amount of justification turn inward. I found at that particular more convenient, more...

T883: In other words, it's possible that the object of that feeling is to a certain extent chance, that it might have been resentment toward yourself, but it happened to come out...

C884: Yeah.

T884: ...as resentment toward me.

C885: I've felt that, oh, probably once or twice before in the very beginning. I didn't know...now I've learned since then I...at that time that it would have...all I would have known was that if...it was a resentment that I happen to have felt in a...the-rapeutic kind of a...situation. I probably could have labelled it...Today, I felt something else. I mean, I got a little better insight into myself, I think, as to why the...the why of the feeling. Oh, what does the…not so much what caused it, but what I might be able to do with it. A...

T885: As I get that, you sense almost the same feeling in yourself that you felt earlier, but now you sense it a little more in its richness and differences, and the meaning it may have for you, and so on. Is that...?

C886: Yes.That's it. I mean, more...not as a just letting out of...a mild kind of resentment. A...a kind of blaming you. Or I mean, why don't I when, as you probably know. But more as a...as a tool within my own hands. I felt this, bit it's something I can sort of turn back. It's a step.

T886: It's no longer a thing which is described by pinning one label to it. It has quite a lot more to it...

C887: Yeah.

T887: ...than that. It's a step for yourself as well as being a mild resentment toward me.

C888: Yeah. (Pause: 16 seconds) And I have a right to feel resentful. I put my puzzles away last week. (T: laughs) Now they're all out again.

T888: You have a very real basis for feeling quite a lot of troublement and resent-ment...that it seemed as though...the pieces were kind of fitted together and now they're all loosening up again. Is that...?


C889: Well...actually I had hoped, I think, that I could have just wanted to see anything (?); now I have accomplished this, now I must do this. And...have it been a nice kind of...talking through, and...instead of the...this same pattern that it apparently...I said I thought that might happen, and in saying that I was actually voicing a kind of a fear. I don't like it. Well there must be easier ways.

T889: M-hm. That is, it would seem as though perhaps though you could say that problem number one is settled. Now we will just talk through problem number two. But to even look at this second area seems to involve the same pattern of fear about going ahead, and...unavoidable feelings of resentment that come along, that I don't help more, and the whole thing that you experienced before. Is that...?

C890: Yeah. But...even sharper, I mean, if that's possible, mean, that I...the only way I can figure this thing out at all is that this, I've stated before. I've a feeling of something accomplished. I really have that. And that's mine now. But an experience that I've had, a...a kind of like experience...but the conviction that because...and it doesn't quite make sense...that because I've grown up a little bit ...well, maybe even more than a little bit...this seems a little harder to take. A...one makes certain allowances for children, don't they? I mean, it's...We know that...that certain things will hurt them because they haven't experienced them and they don't know how to cope with them. And I've a feeling that in the growing process that took place, I sort of made those allowances for myself. But...this is a...I think there's more knowing in this kind of a feeling that I have the feeling today, more of a...knowing, if you can get it, what that might mean.

T890: Well, I get that in the growing that is a part of childhood and adolescence or of childhood and adolescence in therapy...yes, somehow you can sort of make allowances for the pain and for the stress and for a lot of things. But in this more adult growing that you see ahead of you, somehow that almost seems more fearful because of the growth that has already taken place, or as though, more fearful, I guess in the sense that you can't quite make allowances to yourself for what you go through. Does that...?

C891: I'll make the allowances, but I'm going to know a hell of a lot more about what's actually happening. I may be all wrong but I mean I'm just letting these...

T891: M-hm. These feelings...

C892: ..feelings come out.

T892: M-hm. That somehow you will have lost a little of the naivete, as it were, with which you could face some of the earlier experiences. Is that...?

C893: Yeah. Something like that...it...I'm a little more frightened...as...it was fun to kind of grow up and to be able to latch on to it. And...see what was happening to me. It


was...not fun, but...there were times when it was really kind of wonderful. Painful, to be sure. But...

T893: But a kind of a zest and a wonder to it, and as you look ahead, that looks more frightening than what you've been through.

C894: That's right. That's...

T894: What do you want to say about next week?

C895: Well, I'm available if you are.



THE CASE OF MRS. OAK/BAFO26th interview (five days later)

C896: A...via the grapevine, I heard that my husband had come to see you. I think my reaction...well, it was sort of interesting. I was mad. I was angry! Now, I don't know exactly why. I mean, I...it's ...occurs to me now that any of the reasons that I might have thought at the time weren't ... mean, there's really no justification for it, you see. But any-anyway, I-I was mad, just good and mad.

T896: Sort of that intellectually there may be no justification for it, but as to your feeling, there's just no doubt that you were as mad as anything to think that he...

C897: Yeah. I was really mad. And...and almost as interested in trying to find out just why I was so mad. The closest I can come to it is this. There is a relationship established. What kind it is, I mean I really don't know. It...it's probably comparable to...walking down the street alone and thinking your thoughts. If someone comes up on to you, a...even a friend of a very close person and even if you can establish a...a kind of...comfortable silence, you still, I mean, you...sort of lose those thoughts, and you've lost it, it's not saved. Well, that's as close as I can come. I could always step further and say, well, actually, mean, actually, quite actually...I don't really give a hoot whether...he came here and what he said...and he repeated what he said...I've heard it all before...But I think, in fact I'm sure that if a situation arose, where that he would feel, he...would...need to come to you. And I mean I would ask...to be changed to...someone else. I mean it's ...this someone, somehow...doesn't seem very important. But a certain...a certain condition is...and I don't mean condition...(pause) well, it's...it...I don't know, it just wouldn't be good.

T897: See if I get that. That his coming was experienced as though it might mean a disruption of or interference with this relationship. And...you feel that deeply enough that...if you felt quite sure that if he wanted to come back to me for help for himself, that you would really prefer to be shifted to someone else.

C898: M-hm. Yeah. But I mean, that's...that's a part of that, I mean, that's my...later kind of...thinking. At first I was just mad. I was just peeved.

T898: M-hm. Provoked.

C899: Well, why, I mean, in the first place ... I think ... I think actually what happened more or less was a ... an opening, you see, to kind of thrash out ... I mean, no, look here ... sort of, dammit your motives are all showing, see. A...(pause: 11 se-conds).


T899: M-hm. (pause) Sort of...as I get it, the anger that you felt was quite a bit anger at him for the kind of motives that you felt were bringing him in. Is that...? (pause: 16 seconds).

C900: No, I don't think that's it. But it's something else. It's...I think I used whatever...e-motions I felt. And I think that they were rather complex, rather... They were made up of...many things, certain hangovers, certain...feelings of...he never says, you've done this kind of thing to me before... (pause). And a complex kind of thing. Not too...too defined really in me...in content, you see. And then I say, I'm pretty sure I used it to...one, two, three, I mean thus and thus and thus. Now you've made this statement, what do you mean by it, and follow it through, examine it, or face it yourself kind of thing, that just is...ends up with me feeling sorry for him with the... And that, you see, then again there comes out this awful conflict. Then I say to myself, but alright, so you feel sorry for him. You can afford that kind of luxury. And then I say to myself, it's about (word lost). Now there's a man who's sat in judgment, I mean, for eighteen years. And I...I shouldn't feel sorry. See.. So there's a...

T900: Kinda like to trace that and be sure and get it. That what the incident stirred up in you was pretty complex. And attempt to state that simply wouldn't be quite accurate. But it seemed stirred up. That seemed like a convenient excuse for a really...trying to face him with some of the very strong feelings you had toward him and what he was doing. And then for some reason, that winds up with your feeling sorry for this husband you're attacking. And then ...

C901: Oh...

T901: ...you criticize yourself, what the hell are you doing that for. He's the person you're trying to attack.

C902: Yeah. It just doesn't make too much sense. I mean, it's... (Pause: 14 seconds). That there's certainly no satisfaction there. See. (Pause: 10 seconds). There is a certain amount of satisfaction, I find, and I think it's probably almost a fault in...occasionally...in fact I like to...indulge in a good verbal kind of a...contest. Maybe it's meaness in me, I don't know. I like just to take an issue and...cleverly and pin the person down to it. And just go on into it. I like it. But, for instance, I felt yesterday, I mean that...these...issues that were bothering him are...really weren't as involved as...big as he thought they were. I tried telling him what...is neurotic. I mean, I felt...in the first place, what in the hell difference does it make, you see. And I mean, what...I'm neurotic. And proceeded to explain to him how...I mean, it doesn't mean anything. This gangster's...a psychiatrist...I mean, proves nothing. I just don't know what he's proving. Very likely he's a bastard. I mean, as simple as that. And yet, I mean, I've...as I went on, I felt there wasn't...there was certainly no kick to this thing. I mean, no...


T902: Is this what you're saying there? That as that trouble went on, and it has certain satisfaction in pinning somebody to the wall...yet it sort of lost its savor as though, this isn't what this trouble is all about.

C903: Of cour-I mean that, is, it...I sort of get the feeling...actually it seemed to me that what he would have to do would be to re-examine so many premises...that he'd just sort of fall to pieces, and why? So I don't know...it's...

T903: I gave you the feeling that if he were to really look at the basis of his thinking, that it would be quite disorganizing for him. Is that...?

C904: Yes. It seems to me that he's...he's reached a point where he'd have to be right. And it seems to me that's pretty dangerous that...I mean, when I say it's pretty dangerous, I think what I mean is that, well, maybe he does (whispers) see.

T904: What you see as the real danger is that perhaps it is absolutely necessary for him to see himself as right.

C905: Yeah. Yeah. So then...I mean, my reaction is...is one of...I don't know, it's a complex thing too. It's...I said feeling sorry...I think it's probably more selfish than that. It's a... (Pause: 19 seconds) it's more wishing that...I were... big enough...I will use them, them...not to be so damn unkind.

T905: Wish that you were a big enough person that it wasn't necessary to you to hurt him that...

C906: No. And yet I'm not hurting him. See? But, well, I don't know... (long pause: 4 minutes). Well, that then just isn't the right one. There isn't very much I can...I can see to do. (Pause: 18 seconds) I've been completely absorbed. There isn't very much I can see to do...but changing his...changing his attitudes, but that doesn't seem to work. I'm personally... I'm not hopeless yet. I feel that...some-someplace and somewhere I'll get it. It's a...I don't know...some-some kind of a spurt that I need to...I'm not hopeless yet.

T906: Feel that his attitudes are really not your responsibility to change, nor do you feel there is much chance of changing him, but...

C907: Not for me to do...I won't...

T907: (words lost) M-hm. That's up...that you're leaving to him, whatever is done about that. But as for your own view of yourself and the relationship, it's not hopeless. Just what it is that you need to help you move forward, that you're not quite sure of, but it's there. That you do feel some confidence in.

C908: Yeah. (pause: 45 seconds). You know, it's peculiar how you...how I...get to know people sometimes. With-without actually being able to verbalize it, it's a...a kind


of atmosphere...it's...I don't know...it's sort of related them to me. When Peggy was in the hospital, the...the social worker had talked with me...talked with my husband. And...late in talking with me, she referred to him as a stern father. And...impulsively and without ...knowing why, I rather strenuously rejected the word, stern. I-I...and I really didn't know why. I...and then of course, dropped it because... it it bothered me, and I began to realize that, well, I was looking for an atmosphere. I was looking for a...description. A feeling. Something. And...occasionally, I mean, I would think about it. And it finally came to me. The word, stern, is not right. It's a misleading kind of thing. I mean, then, I wondered, well, what did I mean; what ...what there that was misinterpreted to me turned to her, probably to Peggy, even. And...I kept thinking back. When I was quite young, oh, I imagine seventeen, eighteen, I became interested in Russian novels. I read them through. I mean, because in those days, that was how I read. If I read one author, then everything he wrote was into it, mean, in the...the thing, I'm sure. But I read the whole Russian school. And I can remem-ber...philosophically I'm sure I didn't get anything out of it. I was too young. But I can remember a kind of feeling I would get, an almost feverish...sort of unreal heaviness. A...feeling of ...almost like having a...like a temperature. A...and yet, of knowing that it was a part of this novel, it was a part of the thing, it was something the author loved, the...suffering was a...a part of it, a...not play acting, but something so much a part that it was...there was a...a certain flavor about it that he liked tasting. And...as close as I can come, I think my husband is sort of like that, a...a kind of it's...instead of being stern, he's that. And I know it...it doesn't make-make much sense.

T908: But as you try to feel more clearly in regard to him, you feel quite sure, no, stern isn't the adjective. More as though it is this heaviness, the laboring, suffering. Something at least that's akin to the atmosphere in those Russian novels that's hard to put into words, but that applies to him much more than a word like stern.

C909: Yeah. That's right. (pause: 13 seconds) And I think although he would be knifed from here to...high heaven, he likes it...a...he doesn't like it, but he...he does...I don't know.(pause: 2 minutes, 50 seconds).

T909: Are you saying there that there are sort of...bitter-sweet attitudes toward the tragic element of life that he has? I don't know whether I catch it or not.

C910: I don't know whether even I catch it. I...I think he's a good guy, really. I mean, I do. I think he has a sort of cockeyed picture of himself. A...I think he won't face some things. I...I think he thinks of himself as...as having a great deal of wisdom, and I think that he's...sincere...in wanting to impart it and thinking he can. I...I think he's tricked himself like we all do. For instance...he loves humanity. (Pause: 10 seconds). I don't know. I don't. I just don't. And yet I'm sure that he feels that's important and good. And...and maybe it is. But I'd sort of like to tell him that it's really, in my thinking, an impossibility. That...that once you've talked


yourself into that...and I can't prove it...but once you've talked yourself into that, you've stopped liking people. (pause: 14 seconds).

T910: What you seem to be saying there is that...sure, he has his limitations, and same kinds of faults all of us do, and yet in lots of ways, you feel he's a good person, and that the direction he's moving or would like to move you can approve of, even if you might not agree with. But on this business of really...you get this feeling that he loves humanity, you'd like to be able to really prove to him somehow the wrongness of that, or that the person who talks like that doesn't really love the people as they exist. Is that...?

C911: It's something like that. It's a feeling that I have that...that once these emotions about people become so abstract as to include a...I...a verbalization of humanity, and its righteousness and its strength, it seems to me that that person who feels that way has lost his give and take with people. The only way I can...he's stopped liking people. Probably ...he's afraid of people. I don't know, what it is, but I think it's a kind of...refuge of...I don't know, it isn't that. It's a cover up for something that isn't good.

T911: Feel that maybe it's defense against his real fear of liking people as individuals. Is that...?

C912: I don't know. I really don't know. And of course I have a feeling that this is sort of removed from me. It's... (pause: 13 seconds) removed in that it isn't going to solve my problems.

T912: That's over in the area that he'll have to do something about things, hm?

C913: Yeah. Maybe I was just trying to put a few things into words just to listen to them myself...but...I don't know. (Pause: 16 seconds) What I had meant to talk of and maybe it'll carry over, maybe it won't I don't know. My...reaction to the Q-test...I call it Q-test...I'm not sure that that's what it's called, this…

T913: Sorting cards?

C914: ...card business?

T914: Yeah. M-hm.

C915: I think it's a good test. Makes me almost doubly sure, because it's the one test I dislike very much. But very much. I mean, I just...I dislike it. And I began asking myself, why. And I think I found out why. It brings into sharp focus...feelings of conflict, of...contradictions, and...I'm particularly interested in...course I don't remember from one test to the other, which proves too that it's a good test...how I'm...I like the positive side. I mean, I don't have quite so much trouble with that. But when I hit the negative side, I mean these poppings,


conflicts,.. these... And that carried me on to ask, well, maybe one of my troubles is that I don't ... don't particularly want to look on the negative side of my own...personality. And...played around with it. And I don't think that I do. But not...I...I have been thinking on it. And maybe it's...excuses, maybe I'm just excusing... but...I just feel that I...I think anyone in this kind of a...situation, in life situations...has to maintain a certain dignity which is...is not of the...social kind. I mean, it's a certain inward kind of...thing. And...I think that those of us who...don't parade our faults will so to speak, our weaknesses, are behaving that way to maintain a kind of...balance there. Now I think on the other hand, there can be people who would, who might even have to parade them in...order to feel that they had...rid themselves. But I don't...the point I'm trying to make is this, I don't think it would have much bearing were I to sort of pull out from myself the...parts that I think are weaknesses, that are faults, the way you sometimes do with friends. I'll say, well, I'm a difficult person. And I expect them to say, oh, no, you're not. And probably want to bash their heads in if they didn't...But I keep insisting. So I learned something. I...bothered me, because I thought, well, maybe I was kidding myself. Maybe I should be parading...or...I...I should be...But then of course there actually was a feeling...conviction that I'm not too awful, too...too hopeless, too... (pause). So that was something that had come to me.

T915: M-hm. Somehow quite a lot of things just sharpened up by that Q-test. But as I get it, in this situation, you function along, keeping the dignity of yourself without exposing too rapidly and so on, the negative aspects you might feel within yourself. And yet taking something like that seems to sort of expose them a little too sharply for comfort.

C916: Yeah. I mean, I question my honesty, I question my...and yet I want the thing to be as impulsive as possible. And then there's a conflict, well, if you stop to rationalize, would you do this, would you do that, it...and I don't like that, you know...I...I...

T916: Really resist it.

C917: Yeah. And that I knew, and I was convinced...you see, I've had it three times now...and after the last time, I was convinced that there was almost a kind of therapeutic value in it, because...afterwards these things just started to crystallize...in...well, now...why am I not dwelling on negative...and it began to work out.

T917: That is, served a purpose for you, but damned if you like the test.

C918: No. I don't like it. I must leave.

T918: Okay. See you 2:30 on Wednesday.

C919: Alright.


Documents

v. 8 bafo/oak part 1 - Psicoterapia Integrativa Mrs.Oak1... · Web viewIf in page set up and printing you select all options as word it should print as one. Edited by Barbara T. Brodley