Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru(Y Cofnod Swyddogol)

The National Assembly for Wales (The Official Record)

Dydd Iau 5 Ebrill 2001

Thursday 5 April 2001

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CynnwysContents

4 Cwestiynau ar Lywodraeth Leol i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau Questions on Local Government to the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities

12 Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd Questions to the Minister for Environment

21 Datganiad ar Glwy’r Traed a’r Genau Statement on Foot and Mouth Disease

37 Datganiadau ar Asesiadau Fferm Gyfan o Indrawn a Addaswyd yn Enetig Statement on Farm-scale Evaluation of Genetically Modified Maize

48 Datganiad ar Ddyfodol Canolfan y Mileniwm Statement on the Future of the Wales Millennium Centre

68 Pwyntiau o Drefn Points of Order

72 Cynnig Trefniadol Procedural Motion

73 Cymeradwyo’r Amserlen Tri Mis ar gyfer Busnes y Cynulliad Approval of the Three-month Timetable of Assembly Business

74 Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo Gorchmynion Composite Motion: Approval of Orders

76 Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Deddf Cefn Gwlad a Hawliau Tramwy 2000 (Cychwyn Rhif 2) (Cymru) 2001 The Approval of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 (Commencement No. 2) (Wales) Order 2001

88 Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Cyngor Addysgu Cyffredinol Cymru (Swyddogaethau Disgybu) 2001 Approval of the General Teaching Councils for Wales (Disciplinary Functions) Regulations 2001

95 Dirprwyo i Brif Weinidog Cymru holl Swyddogaethau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a geir yn neu o dan Reoliadau a wneir o dan Adran 2(2) o Ddeddf Cymunedau Ewrop 1972 Delegation to the First Minister all the Functions of the National Assembly for Wales Contained in or under Regulations made under Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972

97 Cymeradwyo Newidiadau i Reol Sefydlog Rhif 23, Adran 3 a Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 34 Approval of Changes to Standing Orders No. 23, Section 3 and Standing Order No.34

100 Cynnig Trefniadol Procedural Motion

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101 Cymeradwyo Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 7 ) Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) 2001 Approval of the Local Government Finance ( Wales) Special Grant Report ( No 7) (Wales) 2001 107 Cynnig Trefniadol Procedural Motion

109 Dadl Fer: Stres—Ei Effeithiau ar Blant Short Debate: Stress—The Effects on the Child

Yn y golofn chwith, cofnodwyd y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y Siambr.Yn y golofn dde, cynhwyswyd cyfieithiad o’r areithiau hynny.

In the left-hand column, the proceedings are recorded in the language in which they werespoken in the Chamber. In the right-hand column, a translation of those speeches has been

included.

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Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 9.05 a.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.The Assembly met at 9.05 a.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Cwestiynau ar Lywodraeth Leol i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol aChymunedau

Questions on Local Government to the Minister for Finance, Local Governmentand Communities

Moderneiddo Llywodraeth LeolModernising Local Government

Q1 Jonathan Morgan: Will the Ministermake a statement on the Executive’smeasures to modernise local government?(OAQ10883)

C1 Jonathan Morgan: A wnaiff yGweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol aChymunedau ddatganiad ar fesurau’rWeithrediaeth i foderneiddio llywodraethleol? (OAQ10883)

The Minister for Finance, LocalGovernment and Communities (EdwinaHart): We discussed the Local Government(Best Value Performance Indicators) (Wales)Order 2001 on 27 March. In addition, draftguidance on community strategies has beenissued. I have completed consultation on newpolitical structures and I am now consultingon a new ethical framework.

Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, LlywodraethLeol a Chymunedau (Edwina Hart):Cawsom drafodaeth ar OrchymynLlywodraeth Leol (DangosyddionPerfformiad Gwerth Gorau) (Cymru) 2001 ar27 Mawrth. Yn ychwanegol at hyn,cyhoeddwyd canllawiau drafft arstrategaethau cymunedol. Yr wyf wedicwblhau ymgynghoriad ar strwythuraugwleidyddol newydd ac yr wyf bellach ynymgynghori ar fframwaith egwyddorolnewydd.

Jonathan Morgan: Several months ago, infact probably a year ago, the Assemblydebated at length councillors’ allowances andremuneration for those who serve in localgovernment. There has been an unacceptabledelay in the work being undertaken. TheAssembly needs to know what the situation isnow. The people of Wales expect decisions tobe taken on this matter because of the strongfeelings about it in Wales, particularly inCardiff. Can you update the Assembly on thisissue?

Jonathan Morgan: Sawl mis yn ôl,flwyddyn yn ôl mae’n debyg, cynhaliodd yCynulliad drafodaeth faith ar lwfansaucynghorwyr a thaliadau ar gyfer y rhai syddyn gwasanaethu mewn llywodraeth leol. Buoedi annerbyniol wrth wneud y gwaith hwn.Mae angen i’r Cynulliad wybod beth yw’rsefyllfa erbyn hyn. Mae pobl Cymru’ndisgwyl i benderfyniadau gael eu gwneud ary mater hwn oherwydd bod teimladau cryfam hyn yng Nghymru, yn arbennig yngNghaerdydd. Allwch chi roi’r wybodaethddiweddaraf i’r Cynulliad ar y mater hwn?

Edwina Hart: Consultants have beenappointed and are commencing their work.The timetable, which I outlined to theAssembly, for them obtaining findings by thesummer is still on line to be met.

Edwina Hart: Penodwyd ymgynghorwyr acmaent yn dechrau ar eu gwaith. Mae’ramserlen, a amlinellais i’r Cynulliad, ermwyn iddynt sicrhau canfyddiadau erbyn yrhaf ar y trywydd cywir i gael ei chyflawni.

Eleanor Burnham: What assurances canyou give that the new legislation proposed bythe Assembly on openness in Welsh localgovernment will stop a repeat of the situation

Eleanor Burnham: Pa sicrwydd y gallwchchi ei roi y bydd y ddeddfwriaeth newydd agynigiwyd gan y Cynulliad ar fod yn agoredmewn llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru yn atal

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that occurred in Flintshire County Council?That council was recently criticised by thedistrict auditor for a lack of openness,accountability and integrity.

sefyllfa debyg i’r un yng Nghyngor Sir yFflint rhag digwydd eto? Beirniadwyd ycyngor hwnnw’n ddiweddar gan yrarchwilydd dosbarth am fethu â bod ynagored, atebol a gonest.

Edwina Hart: I will not comment on theposition of Flintshire County Council. Thedistrict auditor’s report is a matter for thatcouncil.

Edwina Hart: Ni wnaf ymateb i sefyllfaCyngor Sir y Fflint. Mater i’r cyngor hwnnwyw adroddiad yr archwilydd dosbarth.

Rhaglenni Adfywio Cymunedol Sector GwirfoddolVoluntary Sector Community Regeneration Programmes

Q2 Jocelyn Davies: Will the Minister makea statement on sources of funding forvoluntary sector community regenerationprogrammes? (OAQ10832)

C2 Jocelyn Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidogddatganiad ar ffynonellau cyllid ar gyferrhaglenni adfywio cymunedol sectorgwirfoddol? (OAQ10832)

Edwina Hart: The voluntary sector can bidfor a number of National Assemblycommunity regeneration programmes. Iannounced local regeneration fund top-slicedfunding on 1 March for community capacitybuilding and community regenerationinitiatives, to be undertaken by 20 voluntaryand community groups across Wales.

Edwina Hart: Gall y sector gwirfoddolwneud cais am nifer o raglenni adfywiocymdeithasol y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.Cyhoeddais arian brigdoriad y gronfaadfywio lleol ar 1 Mawrth er mwyn meithringallu cymunedau a mentrau adfywiocymunedol, a gynhelir gan 20 o grwpiaugwirfoddol a chymunedol ledled Cymru.

Jocelyn Davies: Voluntary organisations thatrun projects rely on a cocktail of fundingfrom many sources and accessing fundingrequires expertise that small organisationsoften lack. Do you agree that there is a strongcase for simpler, broader funding schemes forvoluntary sector projects and will you agreeto review funding mechanisms?

Jocelyn Davies: Mae sefydliadau gwirfoddolsydd yn rhedeg prosiectau yn dibynnu argymysgedd o arian o nifer o ffynonellau acmae cael mynediad i arian yn gofyn amarbenigedd nad yw sefydliadau bach ynmeddu arno’n aml. A gytunwch fod dadl grefdros gyflwyno cynlluniau ariannu symlach acehangach ar gyfer prosiectau sectorgwirfoddol ac a gytunwch i adolygu’r dulliauariannu?

Edwina Hart: I have also been concerned—as has Jane Hutt, who has responsibility forthe voluntary sector—about the problemsfaced by the voluntary sector, namely theplethora of organisations to which they mustapply, the nature of the forms and so on. Weare committed to considering streamliningstructures and I hope that we will have seenimprovements over the last year. This issue isvery much on the voluntary sector’s agenda.

Edwina Hart: Yr wyf hefyd wedi bod ynbryderus—fel y bu Jane Hutt, sydd yngyfrifol am y sector gwirfoddol—am yproblemau a wynebir gan y sectorgwirfoddol, sef yr amrywiaeth eang osefydliadau y mae’n rhaid cyflwynoceisiadau iddynt, natur y ffurflenni ac ati. Yrydym yn ymrwymedig i ystyried symleiddiostrwythurau a gobeithiaf inni weldgwelliannau yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf.Mae’r mater hwn yn bendant ar agenda’rsector gwirfoddol.

David Melding: Do you agree thatsuccessful community regenerationinvariably involves the voluntary sector? Do

David Melding: A gytunwch fod adfywiocymunedol llwyddiannus yn dibynnu’nddieithriad ar y sector gwirfoddol? A

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you also agree that we must mainstream it inall schemes so that we have schemes that areaimed directly at the communities’ purposesrather than being imposed on them?

gytunwch hefyd fod yn rhaid inni ei brifffrydio ym mhob cynllun er mwyn sicrhaubod gennym gynlluniau sydd wedi euhanelu’n uniongyrchol at ddibenion ycymunedau yn hytrach na chael eu gorfodiarnynt?

Edwina Hart: I concur about the bottom-upsapproach. We must recognise that there isconcern about the more formal aspects of thevoluntary sector. Although we have anexcellent relationship with the Welsh Councilfor Voluntary Action, some voluntary bodiesdo not feel that they are a part of thatorganisation. They feel that they are almostpart of another structure. We must be genuineabout these programmes. We must adopt abottom-up approach, consulting with thatbase and ensuring the voluntary sector thatwe are putting the necessary mechanisms inplace to empower it to become part of thediscussion on this issue. That is the mostdifficult aspect of this and the voluntarysector has a valuable role in that.

Edwina Hart: Cytunaf â’r ymagwedd o’rbôn i’r brig. Rhaid inni gydnabod bod pryderynglŷn ag agweddau mwy ffurfiol ar y sectorgwirfoddol. Er bod gennym berthynas wychgyda Chyngor Gweithredu GwirfoddolCymru, nid yw rhai cyrff gwirfoddol ynteimlo eu bod yn rhan o’r sefydliad hwnnw.Teimlant eu bod bron yn rhan o strwythurarall. Rhaid inni fod yn ddiffuant ynghylch yrhaglenni hyn. Rhaid inni fabwysiaduymagwedd o’r bôn i’r brig, gan ymgynghoriâ’r sylfaen a sicrhau’r sector gwirfoddol einbod yn cyflwyno’r gweithdrefnauangenrheidiol er mwyn ei alluogi i ddod ynrhan o’r drafodaeth ar y mater hwn. Dynayw’r agwedd anoddaf ar hyn ac mae gan ysector gwirfoddol ran werthfawr i’w chwaraeyn hynny.

Cyllidebau Awdurdodau HeddluPolice Authorities’ Budgets

Q3 David Davies: What criteria will theMinister use to judge the excessiveness of apolice authority’s budget? (OAQ10880)

C3 David Davies: Pa feini prawf y mae’rGweinidog yn bwriadu eu defnyddio ermwyn barnu a yw cyllideb awdurdodheddlu’n rhy fawr? (OAQ10880)

Edwina Hart: I have yet to consider theprinciples by which police authority budgetswill be judged. When I have done so, theywill be put before the Assembly for approval.

Edwina Hart: Nid wyf wedi ystyried eto’regwyddorion y bernir cyllidebauawdurdodau’r heddlu yn eu herbyn. Panfyddaf wedi gwneud hynny, fe’u cyflwyniri’r Cynulliad i’w cymeradwyo.

David Davies: Is it not the case that GwentPolice is losing out because 10 per cent of theformula used to allocate money to policeauthorities is based on historical spendingrather than on need? What are you doing tofulfil the Government’s commitment toreduce that 10 per cent to 0 per cent and tobase the police authority funding formula onneed rather than on historical spending?

David Davies: Onid yw Heddlu Gwent ar eigolled am fod 10 y cant o’r fformwla addefnyddir i ddyrannu arian i awdurdodau’rheddlu yn seiliedig ar wariant hanesyddol ynhytrach nag ar angen? Beth ydych yn eiwneud i gyflawni ymrwymiad y Llywodraethi leihau’r 10 y cant hwnnw i 0 y cant a seiliofformwla ariannu awdurdodau’r heddlu arangen yn hytrach nag ar wariant hanesyddol?

Edwina Hart: Gwent Police received themost generous increase of all four policeauthorities in Wales in the last financial year,2000-01. However, I am concerned about thepolice funding formula and I have received

Edwina Hart: Derbyniodd Heddlu Gwent ycynnydd haelaf o’r pedwar awdurdod heddluyng Nghymru yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannolddiwethaf, 2000-01. Fodd bynnag, pryderafam fforwmla ariannu’r heddlu, a derbyniais

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several representations from chief constablesand police authorities about the need for us toexamine it. I have written to Charles ClarkeMP at the Home Office, who is responsiblefor policing. I raised several concerns and thefact that we should have equity throughoutWales as regards that formula.

sawl sylw gan brif gwnstabliaid acawdurdodau’r heddlu am yr angen inni eiarchwilio. Ysgrifennais at Charles Clarke ASyn y Swyddfa Gartref, sydd yn gyfrifol amblismona. Codais sawl pryder a’r ffaith ydylem gael cydraddoldeb drwy Gymru gyfanmewn cysylltiad â’r fformwla honno.

9:15 a.m.

Geraint Davies: Do you recognise theimportance of community policing in thefight against crime and are you concernedthat 26 police stations have closed in southWales since Labour came to power? Will youmake representations to the UK Governmentfor the control of the police to come to thisAssembly so that it can ensure thatcommunity policing receives the funds that itdeserves?

Geraint Davies: A gydnabyddwchbwysigrwydd plismona cymunedol yn yrymgyrch yn erbyn troseddau ac a ydych ynpryderu bod 26 o orsafoedd yr heddlu wedicau yn ne Cymru ers i Lafur ddod i rym? Awnewch chi gyflwyno sylwadau iLywodraeth y DU i’r Cynulliad hwn gaelrheolaeth dros yr heddlu er mwyn iddo allusicrhau bod plismona cymunedol yn derbynyr arian y mae’n ei haeddu?

Edwina Hart: We cannot blame a LabourGovernment, however attractive that mightbe in the build up to the general election, forwhat police authorities decide to do and forpolice management in terms of the number ofpolice stations. I accept the point that peoplewant police stations in their area and like tohave a building locally and someone towhom they can go, and to see the police aspart of the community.

Edwina Hart: Ni allwn feio LlywodraethLafur, waeth pa mor ddeniadol yw hynnywrth baratoi ar gyfer etholiad cyffredinol, amyr hyn y mae awdurdodau’r heddlu ynpenderfynu ei wneud a rheolaeth yr heddluyn nhermau nifer gorsafoedd heddlu.Derbyniaf y pwynt fod pobl yn awyddus igael gorsafoedd heddlu yn eu hardaloedd acyn hoffi cael adeilad yn lleol a rhywun ygallant ymweld â hwy, a gweld yr heddlu felrhan o’r gymuned.

This is a Home Office matter, although nodoubt there will be further representations indue course about the possibility of the policecoming under the National Assembly’scontrol.

Mater i’r Swyddfa Gartref yw hyn, er mae’ndebyg y gwneir sylwadau pellach yn y manynglŷn â’r posibilrwydd y gallai’r CynulliadCenedlaethol ddod yn gyfrifol am yr heddlu.

Cynlluniau Adfywio Cymunedol (Clwy’r Traed a’r Genau)Community Regeneration Schemes (Foot and Mouth Disease)

Q4 The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives(Nick Bourne): Does the Minister propose tointroduce any community regenerationschemes for those communities affected bythe foot and mouth disease crisis?(OAQ10869)

C4 Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru (NickBourne): A yw’r Gweinidog yn bwriaducyflwyno unrhyw gynlluniau adfywiocymunedol ar gyfer y cymunedau hynny yreffeithiwyd arnynt gan argyfwng clwy’r traeda’r genau? (OAQ10869)

Edwina Hart: The Communities Firstprogramme considers long-term solutions andtargets funding to regenerate the mostdeprived communities in Wales. The Ministerfor Rural Affairs has convened a task andfinish group drawn from the Wales Rural

Edwina Hart: Mae’r rhaglen RhoiCymunedau’n Gyntaf yn ystyried atebiontymor hir ac yn targedu arian i adfywio’rcymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig yngNghymru. Mae’r Gweinidog dros FaterionGwledig wedi cynnull grŵp gorchwyl a

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Partnership, which includes representativesfrom local authorities, the tourism andfarming industries and other rural businesses.Its brief is to assess the implications of theoutbreak and prepare a plan to relaunch therural economy when the disease abates,including dealing with rural stress. I awaitrecommendations from that group.

gorffen o Bartneriaeth Wledig Cymru, syddyn cynnwys cynrychiolwyr o awdurdodaulleol, y diwydiannau twristiaeth a ffermio abusnesau gwledig eraill. Ei gylch gorchwylyw asesu goblygiadau’r argyfwng a pharatoicynllun i ail-lansio’r economi wledig panfydd y clwyf yn cilio, gan gynnwys ymdopi âstraen gwledig. Yr wyf yn aros i dderbynargymhellion gan y grŵp hwnnw.

Nick Bourne: I am sure that the Ministerrecognises—she would have been told, forexample, by the Minister for e-commercewho attended a meeting of the Powys RuralBusiness Trust this week in LlandrindodWells—that many businesses built up overmany years, many of them tied up withfamily homes, are facing ruin. They needfinancial assistance over and above what hasbeen announced to avoid going to the wall.That is true in Powys and I suspect that it istrue throughout all of rural Wales. What willyou do to help them?

Nick Bourne: Yr wyf yn siŵr bod yGweinidog yn cydnabod—byddai wedi caelgwybod, er enghraifft, gan y Gweinidog drose-fasnach a fynychodd gyfarfodYmddiriedolaeth Busnes Gwledig Powys yrwythnos hon yn Llandrindod—bod nifer ofusnesau a ddatblygwyd dros flynyddoeddlawer, nifer ohonynt yn gysylltiedig âchartrefi teuluoedd, yn wynebu’rposibilrwydd y byddant yn mynd i’r gwellt.Mae angen cymorth ariannol arnynt y tu hwnti’r hyn a gyhoeddwyd er mwyn osgoi myndi’r wal. Mae hynny’n wir ym Mhowys athybiaf fod hynny’n wir ym mhob rhan oGymru wledig. Beth a wnewch i’w helpu?

Edwina Hart: The Government has takenthe initiative in many ways in Wales to helpas much as it can. In terms of business, whathappens to individuals is a tragedy at everylevel. I think that you will agree, Nick, thatwe have to consider the reality of what willhappen with these businesses and focus onhow we can help them to get back on theirfeet when the crisis is over. Theadministration is considering all aspects ofthat.

Edwina Hart: Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi bodyn flaengar mewn sawl ffordd yng Nghymrui helpu cymaint ag y gallai. Yn nhermaubusnes, mae’r hyn sydd yn digwydd iunigolion yn drychinebus ar bob lefel. Credafy cytunwch, Nick, bod yn rhaid inni ystyriedrealiti’r hyn fydd yn digwydd gyda’rbusnesau hyn a chanolbwyntio ar sut ygallwn eu helpu i adsefydlu ar ôl i’r argyfwnggilio. Mae’r weinyddiaeth yn ystyried yr hollagweddau sydd yn gysylltiedig â hynny.

Brian Gibbons: Do you agree thatthroughout Wales communities have beenravaged by the last 20 and 25 years—[CONSERVATIVE ASSEMBLY MEMBERS:‘Come on.’]

Brian Gibbons: A gytunwch fod cymunedauledled Cymru wedi eu dinistrio gan yr 20 a’r25 mlynedd ddiwethaf—[AELODAUCEIDWADOL O’R CYNULLIAD: ‘Dewch,dewch.’]

What is your point? Beth yw eich pwynt?

The Presiding Officer: Order. Can we havea question please?

Y Llywydd: Trefn. A allwn ni gael cwestiwnos gwelwch yn dda?

Brian Gibbons: These communities mustnot be sacrificed again to deal with someshort-term problems.

Brian Gibbons: Ni ddylid aberthu’rcymunedau hyn eto er mwyn delio âphroblemau tymor byr.

Edwina Hart: Much deprivation has beencaused to communities across Wales, none of

Edwina Hart: Achoswyd llawer oamddifadedd i gymunedau ledled Cymru, ac

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which has been their fault. It is rather likewhat is happening to rural businesses andagriculture at present. It is not their faulteither as these circumstances are outside theircontrol. As a representative of theadministration answering questions today, Ithink that it is essential that we recognise thatwe have to deal with these matters on anissue by issue basis to see what assistance wecan give.

nid oes bai ar yr un ohonynt am hynny.Mae’n debyg i’r hyn sydd yn digwydd ifusnesau gwledig ac amaethyddiaeth ar hyn obryd. Nid eu bai hwy yw hynny ychwaith amfod yr amgylchiadau hyn y tu hwnt i’wrheolaeth. Fel cynrychiolydd y weinyddiaethsydd yn ateb cwestiynau heddiw, credaf eibod yn holl bwysig ein bod yn cydnabod bodyn rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â’r materion hynfesul un i weld pa gymorth y gellir ei roi.

When we learn the outcome of the Corusnegotiations, we will also have to considerwhat assistance we can give to damagedcommunities, such as Ebbw Vale andLlanwern, and perhaps elsewhere, forexample, Shotton, which may be damaged ifannouncements are made on job losses therein the future.

Pan gawn wybod beth fydd canlyniadnegodiadau Corus, bydd yn rhaid inni hefydystyried pa gymorth y gellir ei roi igymunedau a ddifrodwyd, fel Glynebwy aLlanwern, ac mewn mannau eraill efallai, erenghraifft, Shotton, a allai ddioddef osgwneir cyhoeddiadau am golli swyddi yno yny dyfodol.

Elin Jones: A yw’r Gweinidog ynymwybodol fod y Comisiynydd Ewropeaidd,David Byrne, wedi cadarnhau ddoe y byddaipecyn o gymorth i’r economi wledig yn dilynclwy’r traed a’r genau, ac y byddai hynny ofewn rheolau cystadlu’r Undeb Ewropeaidd?Os felly, a yw’r Gweinidog yn barod igadarnhau y bydd y Cabinet yn pwyso ambecyn o gymorth o’r Trysorlys i’ncymunedau gwledig ar frys?

Elin Jones: Is the Minister aware that theEuropean Commissioner, David Byrne,yesterday confirmed that there would be apackage of assistance for the rural economyfollowing the foot and mouth diseaseoutbreak, and that that would be within theEuropean Union’s competition rules? If so, isthe Minister willing to confirm that theCabinet will urgently press for the Treasuryto provide a package of assistance to our ruralcommunities?

Edwina Hart: I await confirmation of anydetails via the Minister for Rural Affairs andwe will take into account officials’ advice onwhat we can do to help rural areas in thesedifficult times.

Edwina Hart: Arhosaf am gadarnhad amunrhyw fanylion drwy’r Gweinidog drosFaterion Gwledig a byddwn yn ystyriedcyngor y swyddogion ar yr hyn y gallwn eiwneud i helpu ardaloedd gwledig yn ystod yramseroedd anodd hyn.

Papur Gwyn Deddf Llywodraeth Leol 2000 ar gyfer CymruLocal Government Act 2000 White Paper for Wales

Q5 Janet Ryder: Will the Local GovernmentAct 2000 White Paper for Wales incorporatethe principles governing conduct of membersof relevant authorities? (OAQ10834)

C5 Janet Ryder: A fydd Papur Gwyn argyfer Cymru Deddf Llywodraeth Leol 2000yn ymgorffori’r egwyddorion sydd yn rheoliymddygiad aelodau o awdurdodauperthnasol? (OAQ10834)

Edwina Hart: An Order containing generalprinciples of conduct for members and co-opted members of relevant authorities wasissued for consultation last year. A revisedversion was issued in February. It will formpart of the new ethical framework for localgovernment, which I intend to bring to this

Edwina Hart: Cyhoeddwyd Gorchymyn yncynnwys egwyddorion ymddygiadcyffredinol ar gyfer aelodau ac aelodaucyfetholedig o awdurdodau perthnasol argyfer ymgynghoriad y llynedd. Cyhoeddwydfersiwn diwygiedig ym mis Chwefror. Byddyn llunio rhan o’r fframwaith moesegol

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Assembly for approval in June. newydd ar gyfer llywodraeth leol, y bwriadafei gyflwyno i’r Cynulliad hwn i’wgymeradwyo ym mis Mehefin.

Janet Ryder: We have discussed the needfor allegations against councillors to be dealtwith by external bodies so that the public canbe assured that they are dealt with fairly. Youhave touched on the district audit report forone council this morning. Do you agree thatwhere such a report contains seriousallegations, it too should be dealt with by anexternal body so that the public can bereassured that the points raised in the reportare being dealt with?

Janet Ryder: Yr ydym wedi trafod yr angeni gyrff allanol ymdrin â honiadau yn erbyncynghorwyr fel y gellir sicrhau’r cyhoedd eubod yn cael eu trin yn deg. Yr ydych wedicyfeirio at adroddiad yr archwiliad dosbarthar gyfer un cyngor y bore yma. A gytunwch,lle bo adroddiad o’r fath yn cynnwyshoniadau difrifol, y dylai corff allanol ymdrinâ hyn fel y gellir sicrhau’r cyhoedd yrymdrinnir â’r pwyntiau a godwyd yn yradroddiad?

Edwina Hart: The public has the necessaryreassurance on those issues through the ballotbox. However, as you have raised the matter Iwill give it consideration.

Edwina Hart: Mae’r cyhoedd yn cael ysicrwydd sydd ei angen ar y materion hynnydrwy’r blwch pleidleisio. Fodd bynnag, ganeich bod wedi codi’r mater byddaf yn rhoiystyriaeth iddo.

William Graham: We welcome theseregulations, not in total but in spirit, asdiscussed in Committee. How do youpropose to enact the sanctions that may beinvolved?

William Graham: Croesawn y rheoliadauhyn, nid yn gyfan gwbl ond mewn ysbryd, fely trafodwyd yn y Pwyllgor. Sut y bwriadwchgyflwyno’r cosbau a allai fod yn gysyllitedigâ hynny?

Edwina Hart: I know that you haveparticular concerns regarding the ethicalframework, which you have raised inCommittee. It is essential that we try toprogress by ensuring the agreement of WelshLocal Government Association to the schemethat is being implemented. We also have toprovide the public with the necessary securityblanket and ensure that if things go wrong,measures will be implemented under thisethical framework. We will have to considercarefully what sanctions could be imposed ifmatters do not pan out as we envisage.

Edwina Hart: Gwn fod gennych bryderonpenodol ynghylch y fframwaith moesegol, agodwyd gennych yn y Pwyllgor. Mae’n hollbwysig ein bod yn ceisio sicrhau cynnydddrwy sicrhau bod Cymdeithas LlywodraethLeol Cymru yn cytuno i’r cynllun aweithredir. Yr ydym hefyd wedi rhoi’rsicrwydd angenrheidiol i’r cyhoedd a sicrhauy gweithredir mesurau o dan y fframwaithmoesegol hwn os aiff pethau o’u lle. Bydd ynrhaid inni ystyried yn ofalus pa gosbau ygellid eu cyflwyno os na fydd pethau’ndatblygu yn ôl y disgwyl.

Cyllid Cyfalaf Awdurdodau LleolCapital Finance of Local Authorities

Q6 Janice Gregory: Will the Minister makea statement on the progress for simplifyingthe arrangements for controlling the capitalfinance of local authorities? (OAQ10814)

C6 Janice Gregory: A wnaiff y Gweinidogddatganiad ar y cynnydd i symleiddio’rtrefniadau ar gyfer rheoli cyllid cyfalafawdurdodau lleol? (OAQ10814)

Edwina Hart: A White Paper on reforminglocal government finance systems, includingcapital finance, is expected to be publishedduring the summer. It will provide the

Edwina Hart: Disgwylir y cyhoeddir PapurGwyn ar ddiwygio systemau cyllidllywodraeth leol, yn cynnwys cyllid cyfalafyn ystod yr haf. Bydd yn rhoi cyfle i

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opportunity for primary legislation, whereand as required, to enable change to the localgovernment finance system in Wales, such asmoving to a prudential borrowing system.My officials are keeping in touch with theDepartment of the Environment, Transportand the Regions about the draughting. A jointworking group has been established with theWLGA to examine the detailed proposals andidentify any changes to secondary legislationthat the Assembly may make independentlyof the review and in advance of the newsystem that is unlikely to be in place beforeApril 2004.

ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol, pryd a lle y boangen, ysgogi newid i systemau cyllidllywodraeth leol yng Nghymru, fel symudtuag at system fenthyca ddarbodus. Mae fyswyddogion yn cadw mewn cysylltiad agAdran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’rRhanbarthau ynglŷn â’r drafftio. Sefydlwydgweithgor ar y cyd â CLlLC i archwilio’rcynigion manwl a nodi unrhyw newidiadau iddeddfwriaeth eilaidd y gall y Cynulliad eigwneud yn annibynnol i’r adolygiad a chyn ysystem newydd sydd yn annhebygol o gael eichyflwyno cyn mis Ebrill 2004.

Janice Gregory: Thank you for thatcomprehensive answer. Taking it further, doyou anticipate that simplification would havean influence on the option of stock transfer ofcouncil housing?

Janice Gregory: Diolch ichi am yr atebcynhwysfawr hwnnw. Gan fynd â’r materymhellach, a gredwch y byddai symleiddio’ndylanwadu ar yr opsiwn o drosglwyddo stoctai cyngor?

Edwina Hart: The issues surrounding thatare primarily ones for Treasury to consider. Itis an avenue that will need to be explored. Itmight be helpful to Members if I were toprovide the Local Government and HousingCommittee with some details of what mightbe envisaged.

Edwina Hart: Mae’r materion sydd yngysylltiedig â hynny’n faterion i’r Trysorlyseu hystyried. Mae’n llwybr y bydd angen eiarchwilio. Gallai fod yn ddefnyddiol i’rAelodau pe bawn yn darparu manylion am yrhyn a ragwelir i’r Pwyllor Llywodraeth Leola Thai.

David Lloyd: A ydych yn cytuno y dylidmeddwl eto am drefniadau’r fenter cyllidpreifat?

David Lloyd: Do you agree that we shouldrethink the arrangements for the privatefinance initiative?

Edwina Hart: As you know, I am currentlyconsulting on PFI and the nature of publicand private partnership. It is essential that theLocal Government and Housing Committeeand the Health and Social ServicesCommittee have an opportunity to considermy consultation documents. As I indicated,there must be further discussion. There areaspects of PFI that concern people,particularly the involvement of staff in anytransfer. We all share the concerns about thataspect of PFI. However, I do not intend toabandon the opportunity of trying to ensuresome capital projects in Wales. It is strangethat you have chosen to raise this issue assome Plaid Cymru controlled localauthorities have been actively involved in PFIprojects.

Edwina Hart: Fel y gwyddoch, yr wyfwrthi’n ymgynghori ar y fenter cyllid preifata natur y bartneriaeth gyhoeddus a phreifat.Mae’n holl bwysig y caiff y PwyllgorLlywodraeth Leol a Thai a’r PwyllgorGwasanaethau Cymdeithasol gyfle i ystyriedfy nogfennau ymgynghorol. Fel y dywedais,rhaid cynnal trafodaeth bellach. Mae rhaiagweddau ar y fenter cyllid preifat yn peripryder i bobl, yn arbennig cyfranogiad staffmewn unrhyw drosglwyddiad. Yr ydym ollyn pryderu am yr agwedd honno ar y fentercyllid preifat. Fodd bynnag, nid wyf ynbwriadu anwybyddu’r cyfle i geisio sicrhaurhywfaint o brosiectau cyfalaf yng Nghymru.Mae’n rhyfedd eich bod wedi codi’r materhwn gan y bu rhai o’r awdurdodau lleolhynny a reolir gan Blaid Cymru yn weithgariawn ar brosiectau’r fenter cyllid preifat.

Alun Cairns: Will you continue theprecedent you set last year by ring-fencing

Alun Cairns: A wnewch chi barhau â’rcynsail a osodwyd gennych y llynedd drwy

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funds for education so that the funding fogcan be eliminated and Assembly Members besatisfied that all money going to education isspent in schools?

neilltuo arian ar gyfer addysg er mwyn galludiddymu’r niwl cyllido a bodloni Aelodau’rCynulliad bod yr holl arian ar gyfer addysgyn cael ei wario mewn ysgolion?

Edwina Hart: We are back to the issue ofhypothecation. We will not havehypothecation. We have local democracy, wehave all the necessary money going in toeducation and local authorities will be judgedthrough the ballot box.

Edwina Hart: Yr ydym wedi dychwelyd i’rmater o bridiannu. Ni fydd pridiannu. Maegennym ddemocratiaeth leol, mae’r holl ariansydd ei angen yn mynd tuag at addysg abernir awdurdodau lleol drwy’r blwchpleidleisio.

Codiadau yn y Dreth Gyngor yng Nghanol De CymruCouncil Tax Increases in South Wales Central

Q7 David Melding: Will the Minister makea statement on the recent increases in thelevel of council tax in South Wales Central?(OAQ10905)

C7 David Melding: A wnaiff y Gweinidogddatganiad ar y codiadau diweddar yn lefel ydreth gyngor yng Nghanol De Cymru?(OAQ10905)

Edwina Hart: Council tax increases are amatter for the local authority. Cardiff has anincrease of 9.3 per cent, Rhondda Cynon Taffone of 4.8 per cent, and the Vale ofGlamorgan one of 9.1 per cent.

Edwina Hart: Mater i’r awdurdod lleol ywcodiadau yn y dreth gyngor. Mae Caerdyddwedi cynyddu 9.3 y cant, Rhondda CynonTaf 4.8 y cant a Bro Morgannwg 9.1 y cant.

David Melding: Do you agree that RhonddaCynon Taff needs more resources to respondto socio-economic needs but that it isinvidious to make the council tax payers ofCardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan fundthose schemes? The funding should comefrom central Government. That is a moredirect method that does not penalise councilsin notionally more affluent areas.

David Melding: A gytunwch fod angen mwyo adnoddau ar Rhondda Cynon Taf i ymateb ianghenion cymdeithasol economaidd ond eibod yn annheg gwneud i dalwyr treth gyngorCaerdydd a Bro Morgannwg ariannu’rcynlluniau hynny? Dylai’r arian ddod o’rLlywodraeth ganolog. Mae hynny’n ddullmwy uniongyrchol nad yw’n cosbicynghorau mewn ardaloedd y tybir eu bod ynfwy ffyniannus.

Edwina Hart: The local governmentsettlement was warmly welcomed by theWLGA, on which all council leaders sit. It isan excellent settlement and a significant cashincrease in support from the Assembly ofabout 8 per cent. I do not accept that wecould have done more as an administration.We were more than generous this year interms of the settlement.

Edwina Hart: Croesawyd y setliadllywodraeth leol yn frwd gan CLlLC, y maepob arweinydd cyngor yn rhan ohono. Mae’nsetliad gwych ac yn gynnydd ariannolsylweddol gan y Cynulliad o tua 8 y cant. Nidderbyniaf y gallem fod wedi gwneud mwyfel gweinyddiaeth. Yr oeddem yn hael iawneleni yn nhermau’r setliad.

9:25 a.m

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros yr AmgylcheddQuestions to the Minister for Environment

Tai Cynaliadwy (Rheoliadau Cynllunio)Sustainable Housing (Planning Regulations)

Q1 Janet Davies: How will planning C1 Janet Davies: Sut y bydd rheoliadau

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regulations support the development ofsustainable housing? (OAQ10921)

cynllunio’n cynorthwyo datblygiad taicynaliadwy? (OAQ10921)

The Minister for Environment (SueEssex): My colleague, Edwina Hart, hasresponsibility for housing, but from aplanning perspective, the land use planningsystem makes an important contribution tosustainable housing primarily through landuse planning policy at national and locallevels. At national level, ‘Planning Guidance(Wales): Planning Policy, First Revision(April 1999)’, reflects sustainabledevelopment principles. It stresses the needfor sustainable communities by reference tothe need to consider links between housing,employment locations and transport links,and the draft ‘Planning Policy Wales’, whichwas recently issued for consultation, developsthis concept further. At a local level, localplanning authorities take the lead throughtheir unitary development plans.

Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd (SueEssex): Fy nghyd-Aelod, Edwina Hart, syddyn gyfrifol am dai, ond o safbwynt cynllunio,mae’r system cynllunio defnydd tir yngwneud cyfraniad pwysig tuag at daicynaliadwy, yn bennaf drwy bolisi cynlluniodefnydd tir ar lefelau cenedlaethol a lleol. Arlefel genedlaethol, mae ‘Arweiniad Cynllunio(Cymru): Polisi Cynllunio, Diwygiad Cyntaf(Ebrill 1999)’, yn adlewyrchu egwyddoriondatblygu cynaliadwy. Pwysleisia’r angen amgymunedau cynaliadwy drwy gyfeirio at yrangen i ystyried cysylltiadau rhwng tai,lleoliadau cyflogaeth a chysylltiadautrafnidiaeth ac mae ‘Polisi Cynllunio Cymru’drafft, a gyhoeddwyd yn ddiweddar ar gyferymgynghoriad, yn datblygu’r cysyniad hwnymhellach. Ar lefel leol, mae awdurdodaucynllunio lleol yn arwain y gwaith hwn drwyeu cynlluniau datblygu unedol.

Janet Davies: How many councils haveasked you for planning dispensation to buildlifetime or low-energy homes?

Janet Davies: Faint o gynghorau sydd wedigofyn ichi am ddosbarthiad cynllunio iadeiladu cartrefi am oes neu gartrefi ynniisel?

Sue Essex: No requests have come to me, butI will check with Assembly officials whetherthey have received any.

Sue Essex: Nid wyf wedi derbyn unrhywgeisiadau, ond gofynnaf i swyddogion ycynulliad pa’un a ydynt wedi derbyn rhai.

Peter Black: As you know, some councilsare concerned about the threat posed bysecond homes to rural communities and theneed to provide local homes for local people.Will you consider issuing clear guidance tolocal councils on what they can do underplanning law to facilitate policies to protectthose communities?

Peter Black: Fel y gwyddoch, mae rhaicynghorau’n poeni am fygythiad ail gartrefi igymunedau gwledig a’r angen i ddarparucartrefi lleol i bobl leol. A ystyriwchgyhoeddi arweiniad clir i gynghorau lleol aryr hyn y gallant ei wneud o dan y gyfraithgynllunio i hwyluso polisïau i ddiogelu’rcymunedau hynny?

Sue Essex: The planning guidance offershelp on that, particularly since revisions weremade in terms of the Welsh languageguidance, which is reflected in theconsultation document. In addition to that, weare commissioning research that will covermany aspects of the problems raised byDafydd Wigley in his short debate andconsider housing across the board and howwe can protect communities. I hope thatwhen we receive the results of that researchlater this year, they will pick up many of theconcerns that have been raised in this

Sue Essex: Mae’r arweiniad cynllunio’ncynnig help ar hynny, yn arbennig ers i’rdiwygiadau gael eu gwneud yn nhermauarweiniad ar yr iaith Gymraeg, a adlewyrchiryn y ddogfen ymgynghorol. Yn ychwanegolat hynny, yr ydym yn comisiynu ymchwil afydd yn cwmpasu sawl agwedd ar yproblemau a godwyd gan Dafydd Wigley ynei ddadl fer ac yn ystyried y sefyllfa dai yngyffredinol a sut y gallwn ddiogelucymunedau. Fy ngobaith yw, pan dderbyniwnganlyniadau’r ymchwil honno ynddiweddarach eleni, y byddant yn trafod nifer

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Chamber and beyond. We will then have aclearer view of what we need to do and howwe can respond to Members’ concerns.

o’r pryderon a godwyd yn y Siambr hon a thuhwnt. Yna bydd gennym ddarlun cliriach o’rhyn sydd angen ei wneud a sut y gallwnymateb i bryderon yr Aelodau.

David Melding: Do you agree that one of thebest ways to develop sustainable housing isto use brownfield sites? Will you join me incongratulating the Vale of GlamorganCounty Council for its excellent record in thisarea?

David Melding: A gytunwch mai un o’rffyrdd gorau o ddatblygu tai cynaliadwy ywdefnyddio safleoedd tir llwyd? A ymunwch âmi a llongyfarch Cyngor Sir Bro Morgannwgam ei waith gwych yn y maes hwn?

Sue Essex: If you consider planningguidance, which we have strengthened byintroducing the sequential test, there is strongencouragement for local authorities toidentify and develop brownfield sites. Isupport and welcome any local authoritytaking that approach. You will know, fromprevious discussions here, that muchbrownfield land needs to be treated before itcan be used.

Sue Essex: Pe byddech yn ystyried arweiniadcynllunio, a atgyfnerthwyd gennym drwygyflwyno’r prawf dilyniannol, ceir anogaethgref i awdurdodau lleol nodi a datblygusafleoedd tir llwyd. Cefnogaf a chroesawafunrhyw awdurdod lleol sydd ynmabwysiadu’r ymagwedd honno. Gwyddoch,o ganlyniad i drafodaethau blaenorol yma,fod angen trin llawer o dir llwyd cyn y gellirei ddefnyddio.

Strategaeth Wastraff Ddrafft CymruDraft Waste Strategy for Wales

Q2 Pauline Jarman: Can the Ministercomment on the targets set in the draft wastestrategy for Wales? (OAQ10912)

C2 Pauline Jarman: A wnaiff y Gweinidogsylw ar y targedau a bennir yn strategaethwastraff ddrafft Cymru? (OAQ10912)

Sue Essex: I shall consult on proposals for anew waste strategy for Wales in May, whichis when I hope to publish them. Theconsultation will contain options for muchhigher levels of recycling and composting.The Assembly will consider the final strategybefore it is adopted. However, beforefinalisation of the strategy, local authoritieswill be asked, through policy agreements, toachieve combined recycling and compostinglevels of 15 per cent by 2003-04.

Sue Essex: Byddaf yn ymgynghori argynigion ar gyfer strategaeth wastraffnewydd Cymru ym mis Mai, a dyna pryd ygobeithiaf eu cyhoeddi. Bydd yrymgynghoriad yn cynnwys opsiynau ar gyferlefelau llawer uwch o ailgylchu a gwneudgwrtaith. Bydd y Cynulliad yn ystyried ystrategaeth derfynol cyn ei mabwysiadu.Fodd bynnag, cyn penderfynu ar ffurfderfynol y strategaeth, gofynnir i awdurdodaulleol, drwy gytundebau polisi, i gyflawnilefelau ailgylchu a gwneud gwrtaith cyfun o15 y cant erbyn 2003-04.

Pauline Jarman: Will you give a categoricalstatement that you are not in favour of furtherdevelopment of incineration?

Pauline Jarman: A wnewch chi ddatganiadpendant nad ydych o blaid unrhyw waithpellach i ddatblygu cyfleusterau llosgi?

Sue Essex: I cannot prejudice theconsultation on the waste strategy, but I donot foresee a move from the traditional use oflandfill to a dependence on incinerationbecause the clear priority in terms of waste iswaste minimisation. However, where there iswaste, the emphasis must be on recycling and

Sue Essex: Ni allaf ddylanwadu ar yrymgynghoriad ar y strategaeth wastraff, ondni ragwelaf symud o’r defnydd traddodiadolo safleoedd claddu sbwriel i losgi oherwyddy flaenoriaeth amlwg yn nhermau gwastraffyw sicrhau’r isafswm o wastraff. Foddbynnag, lle y ceir gwastraff, rhaid i’r

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composting it. That is my initial feeling,although I cannot prejudice what the strategywill state after consultation.

pwyslais fod ar ei ailgylchu a’i wneud ynwrtaith. Dyna yw fy nheimlad cychwynnol ier na allaf ddylanwadu ar yr hyn a ddywed ystrategaeth yn dilyn yr ymgynghoriad.

Mick Bates: What action are you consideringto alleviate concerns over dioxin levels inwaste-to-energy plants such as thosesuggested for Wrexham and Neath PortTalbot?

Mick Bates: Pa gamau ydych chi’n euhystyried er mwyn lleddfu pryderon ynglŷn âlefelau diocsin mewn gweithfeydd gwastraff-i-ynni fel y rhai a awgrymwyd ar gyferWrecsam a Chastell Nedd Port Talbot?

Sue Essex: The Environment Agency advisesus on any such major developments, so Idepend on its expertise in assessing andmonitoring those developments.

Sue Essex: Mae Asiantaeth yr Amgylcheddyn ein cynghori ar ddatblygiadau mawr o’rfath, felly dibynnaf ar ei harbenigedd wrthasesu a monitro’r datblygiadau hynny.

David Davies: Do you agree that it would bea good idea to start giving a larger proportionof the landfill tax back to local authorities sothat they can spend it on recycling? Do youcondemn the current policy of giving themajority of it back to the Treasury so thatGordon Brown can stash it away and hand itout just before a general election?

David Davies: A gytunwch y byddai’nsyniad da dechrau rhoi cyfran uwch o’r drethtirlenwi yn ôl i awdurdodau lleol fel y gallantei wario ar ailgylchu? A feirniadwch y polisipresennol o roi’r mwyafrif ohono yn ôl i’rTrysorlys fel y gall Gordon Brown ei guddioac yna ei rannu yn union cyn etholiadcyffredinol?

Sue Essex: I had not noticed Gordon Browndoing that. If you recall, I have said on manyoccasions, and in meetings with MichaelMeacher MP—and I will meet him next weekto emphasise it again—that having anelement of environmental taxation that couldbe hypothecated to make direct links withimprovements would be a welcome initiative.That is particularly true of the landfill tax,because, as we have said many times in thisChamber, we must make a rapid and dramaticmove away from using landfills. Europerequires that. I cannot say any more than that.I have said this publicly, in Committee and tothe Ministers involved.

Sue Essex: Nid oeddwn wedi sylwi bodGordon Brown yn gwneud hynny. Oscofiwch, dywedais ar sawl achlysur, ac mewncyfarfodydd gyda Michael Meacher AS—abyddaf yn cwrdd ag ef yr wythnos nesaf ibwysleisio hynny eto—y byddai cael elfen odrethiant amgylcheddol y gellid ei phridiannuer mwyn sicrhau cysylltiadau uniongyrchol âgwelliannau yn fenter i’w chroesawu. Maehyn yn arbennig o wir am y dreth tirlenwi,oherwydd, fel y dywedasom droeon yn ySiambr hon, rhaid inni roi’r gorau iddefnyddio safleoedd tirlenwi yn gyflym adramatig. Mae Ewrop yn mynnu hynny. Niallaf ddweud mwy na hynny. Yr wyf wedidweud hyn yn gyhoeddus, yn y Pwyllgor acwrth y Gweinidogion dan sylw.

The Presiding Officer: I call ChristineGwyther to ask question 5. Sorry, that shouldbe Nick Bourne to ask question 3.

Y Llywydd: Galwaf ar Christine Gwyther iofyn cwestiwn 5. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf,galwaf ar Nick Bourne i ofyn cwestiwn 3.

Ceisiadau Cynllunio (Effaith ar yr Amgylchedd)Planning Applications (Environmental Impact)

Q3 Nick Bourne: Can the Minister outlinethe consideration given to the possibleenvironmental impact of planningapplications? (OAQ10875)

C3 Nick Bourne: A wnaiff y Gweinidogamlinellu pa ystyriaeth a roddir i’r effaith ygallai ceisiadau cynllunio ei chael ar yramgylchedd? (OAQ10875)

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Sue Essex: Local planning authorities have aduty to consider the environmentalimplications of all applications. They musttake the views of bodies with environmentalresponsibilities and the views of the publicinto account before reaching a decision.Certain projects that are likely to havesignificant environmental effects must besubject to statutory environmental impactassessments. That process involves a moresystematic method of assessingenvironmental information. In the smallpercentage of applications that come beforethe Assembly on appeal, or are called in, theAssembly becomes the competent authorityand is required to look afresh at the issuesinvolved.

Sue Essex: Mae’n ddyletswydd arawdurdodau cynllunio lleol i ystyriedgoblygiadau amgylcheddol pob cais. Rhaididdynt ystyried safbwyntiau cyrff sydd âchyfrifoldebau amgylcheddol a safbwyntiau’rcyhoedd cyn gwneud penderfyniad. Rhaid ibrosiectau penodol sydd yn debygol o gaeleffeithiau amgylcheddol sylweddol fod yndestun asesiadau effaith amgylcheddolstatudol. Mae’r broses honno’n cynnwys dullmwy systematig o asesu gwybodaethamgylcheddol. Yn y ganran fechan ogeisiadau a ddaw gerbron y Cynulliad ar apêl,neu a elwir i mewn, gweithreda’r Cynulliadfel yr awdurdod cymwys ac mae’n ofynnoliddo edrych o’r newydd ar y materion dansylw.

Nick Bourne: In relation to mobile phonemasts, what planning considerations arebeing proposed in planning guidance? Inparticular, are we able to encourage thesharing of mobile phone masts through theplanning guidance?

Nick Bourne: Mewn cysylltiad â mastiauffonau symudol, pa ystyriaethau cynllunio agynigir yn yr arweiniad cynllunio? Ynarbennig, a allwn annog rhannu mastiauffonau symudol drwy’r arweiniad cynllunio?

Sue Essex: That is an area of concern, and Ireceive a great deal of correspondence fromMembers and from the public on it. Withinthe next few days—it is a complicatedissue—I hope to announce my suggestedapproach to the regulations and planningguidance.

Sue Essex: Mae hynny’n fater sydd yn peripryder, ac yr wyf yn derbyn swm sylweddolo ohebiaeth gan yr Aelodau a chan y cyhoeddar y mater. O fewn yr ychydig ddyddiaunesaf—mae’n fater cymhleth—gobeithiaf ygallaf gyhoeddi fy ymagwedd awgrymedigi’r rheoliadau a’r arweiniad cynllunio.

Alun Pugh: Onshore windfarms offerenvironmental benefits, but many people findthem visually unacceptable. You will beaware of Betws-yn-Rhos CommunityCouncil’s opposition to a planningapplication in my constituency. Will youensure that offshore windfarms suggested foroff the north Wales coast do not conflict withany proposed sites for tidal power stations?

Alun Pugh: Mae ffermydd gwynt alltraethyn cynnig manteision amgylcheddol, ondmaent yn annerbyniol yn weledol i nifer obobl. Byddwch yn ymwybodol owrthwynebiad Cyngor Cymuned Betws-yn-Rhos i gais cynllunio yn fy etholiad. Awnewch chi sicrhau na fydd ffermydd gwyntalltraeth a awgrymir ar gyfer ardal oddi ararfordir gogledd Cymru yn gwrthdaro agunrhyw safleoedd arfaethedig ar gyfergorsafoedd pŵer llanw?

Sue Essex: Most people will be aware oftoday’s announcement and it is a Crownlicence decision. It does not mean that thosedevelopments will go ahead, although, as yousay, we want to see offshore winddevelopment in principle. Hopefully, that canavoid many of the disagreements involvedwith windfarms on land. The proposeddevelopments will have to go through aplanning regime and will be subject to

Sue Essex: Bydd y rhan fwyaf o bobl ynymwybodol o’r cyhoeddiad heddiw aphenderfyniad trwydded y Goron ydyw. Nidyw’n golygu y bydd y datblygiadau hynny’ncael eu rhoi ar waith, er, fel y dywedwch, yrydym am weld datblygiadau gwynt alltraethmewn egwyddor. Y gobaith yw y gallwnosgoi nifer o’r anghytundebau sydd ynymwneud â ffermydd gwynt ar y tir. Bydd ynrhaid i’r datblygiadau arfaethedig fynd drwy

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regulations. The most important aspect ofyour question is the issue of ensuring that wehave an overall, comprehensive andcompatible policy towards renewable energy,which brings forward locational opportunitiesfor all types of renewable energy and ensuresthat those developments are compatible witheach other and with locational andenvironmental considerations. To this end,we are organising the ongoing work on thetechnical advice note on renewable energyand a seminar, to be held in May, where allaspects of the renewable energy industry canfind a way forward together.

gyfundrefn gynllunio a bod yn amodol arreoliadau. Agwedd bwysicaf eich cwestiwnyw’r mater o sicrhau bod gennym bolisicyffredinol, cynhwysfawr a chyson tuag atynni adnewyddadwy, sydd yn cyflwynocyfleoedd lleoliadol ar gyfer pob math o ynniadnewyddadwy ac sydd yn sicrhau bod ydatblygiadau hynny’n gydnaws â’i gilydd achydag ystyriaethau lleoliadol acamgylcheddol eraill. I’r perwyl hwn, yr ydymyn trefnu’r gwaith parhaus ar y nodyn cyngortechnegol ar ynni adnewyddadwy a seminar,i’w chynnal ym mis Mai, lle gall pob agweddar y diwydiant ynni adnewyddadwy ganfodffordd ymlaen gyda’i gilydd.

Helen Mary Jones: Following on from that,what steps will you take to ensure that theplanning system does not unduly block thesepotential offshore wind developments, whichhave been announced today by Peter HainMP, in the way that—sadly—some onshorewindfarm developments have been blockedby the current planning system?

Helen Mary Jones: Yn dilyn ymlaen ohynny, pa gamau a gymerwch i sicrhau nadyw’r system gynllunio’n rhwystro’rdatblygiadau gwynt alltraeth arfaethedighynny, a gyhoeddwyd heddiw gan Peter HainAS, yn ddiangen yn yr un modd—ynanffodus—ag y caiff rhai datblygiadauffermydd gwynt alltraeth eu hatal gan ysystem gynllunio bresennol?

Sue Essex: It is unfair to say that they havebeen blocked. Some have been approved andsome have not. As Alun indicated in his firstcomment about the situation in hisconstituency, there are strong views held onboth sides. The planning system’s way ofdealing with that is to look at all thearguments and hopefully arrive at a balancedjudgement. From that process some peoplehave been given permission, and some havenot.

Sue Essex: Mae’n annheg dweud y cawsanteu hatal. Cymeradwywyd rhai ohonynt agwrthodwyd rhai eraill. Fel y dywedodd Alunyn ei sylw cyntaf ar y sefyllfa yn ei etholaeth,mae gan y naill ochr a’r llall safbwyntiaupendant. Mae’r system gynllunio’n delio âhynny drwy edrych ar yr holl ddadleuon a’rgobaith yw sicrhau barn gytbwys. O’r broseshonno, mae rhai pobl wedi derbyn caniatâdond nid yw eraill.

9:35 a.m.

As regards the proposed offshoredevelopments, they will probably have toundergo environmental impact assessments,which I mentioned in my earlier answer toNick. They will have to go through a regimeof consideration. Given that the developmentof offshore schemes will come forwardquickly, Peter Hain and I will consult withpeople in Wales on how they want theplanning system to deal with them.

O ran y datblygiadau alltraeth arfaethedig,mae’n debyg y bydd yn rhaid iddynt fod yndestun asesiadau effaith amgylcheddol, ysoniais amdanynt yn fy ateb cynharach iNick. Bydd yn rhaid iddynt gael eu hystyried.O ystyried y daw’r gwaith o ddatblygucynlluniau alltraeth i rym yn fuan, bydd PeterHain a minnau’n ymgynghori â phobl Cymrui weld sut y maent yn dymuno i’r systemgynllunio ddelio â hwy.

Strategaeth Wastraff Ddrafft Cymru (Targedau Ailgylchu)Draft Waste Strategy For Wales (Recycling Targets)

Q4 Pauline Jarman: Can the Minister make C4 Pauline Jarman: A wnaiff y Gweinidog

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a statement on the recycling targets set in thedraft waste strategy for Wales? (OAQ10913)

ddatganiad ynghylch y targedau ailgylchu abennir yn strategaeth wastraff ddrafft Cymru?(OAQ10913)

Sue Essex: I covered that in my earlieranswer. It is still not finalised because thestrategy has not been produced. It should beready in May, when it will go out forconsultation.

Sue Essex: Soniais am hynny yn fy atebcynharach. Nid yw ar ei ffurf derfynol eto amnad yw’r strategaeth wedi’i chynhyrchu.Dylai fod yn barod ym mis Mai, pan gaiff eichyflwyno ar gyfer ymgynghoriad.

Pauline Jarman: You said in your answer tothe earlier question that there was a need fora dramatic move away from using landfill torecycling to meet the European directive.Will you tell the Assembly how much moneyhas been reserved in the budget to deliver awaste strategy for Wales in the current yearto support the zero option of a target of 100per cent recycling?

Pauline Jarman: Dywedasoch yn eich atebi’r cwestiwn cynharach bod angen rhoi’rgorau i ddefnyddio safleoedd tirlenwi arfyrder ac ailgylchu er mwyn bodloni’rgyfarwyddeb Ewropeaidd. A ddywedwchwrth y Cynulliad faint o arian a neilltuwyd yny gyllideb i gyflwyno strategaeth wastraff iGymru yn ystod y flwyddyn gyfredol igefnogi’r opsiwn sero sef targed o 100 y cantar gyfer ailgylchu?

Sue Essex: There was a three-yearprogramme in the budget, which Edwinahighlighted and I subsequently went through.In the first year—I am not wonderful onfigures, Pauline—there was something like£3 million, increasing to £15 million and then£22 million. I will ensure that you have theaccurate figures. The aim of the first year isprimarily to support local authorities andothers on pilot projects because like us, localauthorities must also produce a strategy.There are schemes coming forward.However, from our discussions with localauthorities, we know that they will need atleast a year to formalise their own strategies,in consultation with their communities, andto develop pilot projects. The extra moneywill come in the next two years, particularlyto support local government throughoutWales, as individual authorities or groups ofauthorities, to make the move from landfill torecycling and composting.

Sue Essex: Yr oedd rhaglen tair blynedd yn ygyllideb, a amlygwyd gan Edwina ac aesboniais innau wedyn. Yn ystod y flwyddyngyntaf—nid wyf yn wych gyda ffigurau,Pauline—yr oedd tua £3 miliwn, yn cynyddui £15 miliwn ac yna i £22 miliwn. Byddaf ynsicrhau y cewch y ffigurau cywir. Nod yflwyddyn gyntaf yn bennaf yw cefnogiawdurdodau lleol ac eraill ar brosiectau peilotoherwydd rhaid i awdurdodau lleol hefyd, felninnau, gynhyrchu strategaeth. Maecynlluniau’n cael eu cyflwyno. Fodd bynnag,yn dilyn trafodaethau gydag awdurdodaulleol, gwyddom y bydd angen blwyddyn oleiaf arnynt i ffurfioli eu strategaethau euhunain, drwy ymgynghori â’u cymunedau, aci ddatblygu prosiectau peilot. Cyflwynir yrarian ychwanegol yn ystod y ddwy flyneddnesaf, yn arbennig i gefnogi llywodraeth leolledled Cymru, fel awdurdodau unigol neugrwpiau o awdurdodau, i roi’r gorau iddefnyddio safleoedd tirlenwi a dechrauailgylchu a gwneud gwrtaith.

Alun Cairns: In response to the previousquestion on landfill, the Minister clearlysupported my colleague, David Davies, whenhe said that landfill tax should behypothecated towards recycling. What actionis the Minister taking on this? Will shecondemn the Westminster Government fornot following through any action that shecalled for, or is this yet another example ofthe Westminster Government ignoring the

Alun Cairns: Mewn ymateb i’r cwestiwnblaenorol ar dirlenwi, cefnogodd yGweinidog fy nghyd-Aelod, David Davies,pan ddywedodd y dylid pridiannu’r drethtirlenwi tuag at ailgylchu. Pa gamau y mae’rGweinidog yn eu cymryd ar hynny? A wnaifffeirniadu Llywodraeth San Steffan am beidioâ gweithredu’r camau y gofynnoddamdanynt, neu ai enghraifft arall yw hyn oLywodraeth San Steffan yn anwybyddu

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Assembly’s wishes? dymuniadau’r Cynulliad?

Sue Essex: Many people make representationto the Chancellor of the Exchequer, GordonBrown. I, like many of my colleagues, willcontinue to repeat that once a waste strategyis in place, and substantial proposals aremade, I will be able to give chapter and verseon where this money could be directed. Thatwill put me, and my colleagues, in a muchstronger position because then we could saywhere any hypothecated money could beused. Returning to Pauline’s point, we needfinancial support to help local authoritiesmake that change.

Sue Essex: Mae llawer o bobl yn cyflwynosylwadau i Ganghellor y Trysorlys, GordonBrown. Byddaf fi, llawer o’m cyd-Aelodau,yn parhau i ailadrodd hynny ar ôl istrategaeth wastraff gael ei sefydlu, ac ar ôl igynigion sylweddol gael eu gwneud, gallaffanylu ar lle y gellid cyfeirio’r arian hwnnw.Bydd hynny’n sicrhau fy mod i, a’m cyd-Aelodau, mewn sefyllfa lawer cryfachoherwydd gallem ddweud bryd hynny lle ygellid defnyddio unrhyw arian a bridianwyd.Gan ddychwelyd at bwynt Pauline, maeangen cymorth ariannol arnom i helpuawdurdodau lleol i wneud y newid hwnnw.

The Presiding Officer: I now call ChristineGwyther to ask question 5.

Y Llywydd: Galwaf yn awr ar ChristineGwyther i ofyn cwestiwn 5.

Christine Gwyther: Thank you for thatbuild-up, Llywydd. [Laughter.]

Christine Gwyther: Diolch ichi am yrhagarweiniad, Lywydd. [Chwerthin.]

Bysiau Llawr-Isel (Sir Gaerfyrddin)Low-Floor Buses (Carmarthenshire)

Q5 Christine Gwyther: Can the Ministermake a statement on the introduction of low-floor buses for use by disabled people inCarmarthenshire? (OAQ10852)

C5 Christine Gwyther: A wnaiff yGweinidog ddatganiad ynghylch cyflwynobysiau llawr isel i’w defnyddio gan boblanabl yn Sir Gaerfyrddin? (OAQ10852)

Sue Essex: Christine, you do not need anybuild-up.

Sue Essex: Nid oes angen unrhywragarweiniad arnoch, Christine.

We have accessibility regulations coveringnew buses and coaches that were introducedunder the Disability Discrimination Act 1995.It is important to remember that new buseswill need to meet those requirements.Regulations will be introduced so that allbuses and coaches will comply by no laterthan 2020. The transport grant that Iannounced a few months ago is available tolocal authorities to fund integrated packagesthat address accessibility. That is a specificincentive for local authorities. Severaltransport-grant-supported packages includemeasures such as bus-stop infrastructure,which complement the operation of low-floorbuses. Our local transport services grantscheme will promote accessibility. Thecombined budget next year of £6.3 millionfor bus subsidies and community transport isan increase of 20 per cent on this year. Thereis money as well as legislation.

Mae gennym reoliadau mynediad sydd yncwmpasu bysiau newydd a gyflwynwyd odan Ddeddf Gwahaniaethu ar Sail Anabledd1995. Mae’n bwysig cadw mewn cof y byddangen i’r bysiau newydd hynny fodloni’rgofynion hynny. Cyflwynir rheoliadau ermwyn sicrhau y bydd pob bws yncydymffurfio erbyn 2020 y fan bellaf. Mae’rgrant trafnidiaeth a gyhoeddais ychydigfisoedd yn ôl ar gael i awdurdodau lleolariannu pecynnau integredig sydd yn ymdrinâ mynediad. Mae honno’n fenter benodol argyfer awdurdodau lleol. Mae sawl pecyn âchymorth grant trafnidiaeth yn cynnwysmesurau fel isadeiledd arosfannau bysiau,sydd yn cyd-fynd â’r drefn o weithredubysiau llawr isel. Bydd ein cynllun grantgwasanaethau trafnidiaeth lleol yn hyrwyddomynediad. Mae cyllideb gyfunol y flwyddynnesaf sef £6.3 miliwn ar gyfercymorthdaliadau bysiau a thrafnidiaeth

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gymunedol yn gynnydd o 20 y cant ar eleni.Mae arian ar gael yn ogystal â deddfwriaeth.

Christine Gwyther: I am pleased to knowthat local authorities will receive extra moneyif they need to provide higher kerbs, and thatsort of hard infrastructure. Will you commenton the strong rumour—whether it is ruralmyth or fact—that companies have a policyof passing buses down the line towards theend of their useful life, so that they start asnew in Cardiff and other towns, and are thenpassed progressively to less dense areas asthe vehicles become older? This would makethe introduction of new low-floor buses,which we all welcome, much later in ruralWales than in urban Wales, compounding thein-built inequality.

Christine Gwyther: Yr wyf yn falch oglywed y bydd awdurdodau lleol yn derbynarian ychwanegol os bydd angen iddyntddarparu palmantau uwch, a’r math hwnnw oisadeiledd caled. A wnewch chi ymateb i’rsibrydion amlwg—p’un a yw’n fyth gwledigneu’n ffaith—fod gan gwmnïau bolisi odrosglwyddo bysiau i lawr y lein tuag atddiwedd eu hoes, er mwyn iddynt ddechrauo’r newydd yng Nghaerdydd a threfi eraill, acyna cânt eu trosglwyddo’n raddol i ardaloeddllai poblog wrth i’r cerbydau ddod yn hŷn?Byddai hyn yn golygu y byddai bysiau llawrisel newydd, yr ydym oll yn eu croesawu, yncael eu cyflwyno’n ddiweddarach yngNghymru wledig nag yng Nghymru drefol,gan ddwysáu’r anghydraddoldeb cynhenid.

Sue Essex: I have no knowledge of that kindof unfortunate hierarchy. It would beunfortunate if that was the case and I willinvestigate the points you made. As RichardEdwards is the Chair of the Environment,Planning and Transport Committee andAssembly Member for PreseliPembrokeshire, I am aware of the concern inthat area, which I experienced for myself lastsummer when I visited Pembrokeshire onholiday. Local people are concerned aboutthe quality of some of the buses that operatein rural areas and how, without properdisabled access, they are not allowing peopleto take advantage of the concessionary faresand the possibility to get out and about. I hada meeting with the Confederation ofPassenger Transport recently and increasingaccessibility to buses was discussed. We willconsider carefully what we can do to speedup the transfer so that new buses—there aresome in Cardiff already and are far moreuser-friendly in many ways for disabledpeople—are available throughout thecountry.

Sue Essex: Nid wyf yn ymwybodol o’r mathanffodus hwn o hierarchaeth. Byddai’nanffodus petai hynny’n wir a byddaf ynymchwilio i’r pwyntiau a wnaethoch. Ganmai Richard Edwards yw CadeiryddPwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio aThrafnidiaeth ac Aelod o’r Cynulliad drosBreseli Sir Benfro, yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’rpryderon sydd yn bodoli yn yr ardal honno, abrofais fy hun pan ymwelais â Sir Benfro arwyliau’r haf diwethaf. Mae pobl leol ynpoeni am ansawdd rhai o’r bysiau sydd yngweithredu mewn ardaloedd gwledig ac nadydynt, heb sicrhau mynediad priodol i boblanabl, yn galluogi pobl i fanteisio ar gostauteithio consesiwn a’r posibilrwydd o deithio ogwmpas. Cyfarfûm yn ddiweddar âChydffederasiwn Trafnidiaeth i Deithwyr athrafodwyd y mater o sicrhau mynediadgwell i fysiau. Byddwn yn ystyried yr hyn ygallwn ei wneud yn ofalus i gyflymu’r broseso drosglwyddo er mwyn sicrhau bod bysiaunewydd—ceir rhai ohonynt eisoes yngNghaerdydd ac maent yn llawer mwycyfeillgar i’w defnyddwyr mewn sawl fforddo ran pobl anabl—ar gael ledled y wlad.

We discussed rail services in the meeting ofthe Environment, Planning and TransportCommittee yesterday. However, I made itclear that I think that the time is comingwhen we will need to pay greater attention tobuses. It is a complicated issue as there aremany independent bus operators and we do

Trafodasom wasanaethau rheilffyrdd yngnghyfarfod Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd,Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth ddoe. Foddbynnag, esboniais yn glir fy mod yn credu eibod yn bryd inni dalu mwy o sylw i fysiau.Mae’n fater cymhleth gan fod nifer oweithredwyr bysiau annibynnol ac nid oes

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not have an equivalent of the Strategic RailAuthority for buses. It might encourage youto hear that I am investing in a scheme thatwill enable the voices of bus consumers to beheard. The work, in conjunction with the BusTransport Users Committee—I think that thatis the correct name—will start this year. Wehave able Assembly Members and Membersof Parliament who already make viewsknown, but we must also work withcommunities to ensure that their voice isheard, so that, together, we can try to preparea package of better bus provision.

gennym yr un sydd yn gyfwerth â’rAwdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol ar gyferbysiau. Efallai y bydd y ffaith fy mod ynbuddsoddi mewn cynllun a fydd yn galluogi ileisiau defnyddwyr bysiau gael eu clywed yneich calonogi. Bydd y gwaith, a wneir ar ycyd gyda Phwyllgor DefnyddwyrTrafnidiaeth Bysiau—credaf mai dyna yw’renw cywir—yn dechrau eleni. Mae gennymAelodau’r Cynulliad ac Aelodau Seneddolcymwys sydd eisoes wedi lleisio eu barn, ondrhaid inni weithio hefyd gyda phwyllgorau ermwyn sicrhau y caiff eu lleisiau eu clywed,er mwyn inni geisio paratoi, gyda’n gilydd,becyn o ddarpariaeth bysiau gwell.

Datganiad ar Glwy’r Traed a’r GenauStatement on Foot and Mouth Disease

The Minister for Rural Affairs (CarwynJones): There are currently 57 confirmedcases of foot and mouth disease in Wales—13 in Anglesey, 35 in Powys and nine inMonmouthshire—and six suspect cases. Thepriority remains to control and eradicate thedisease. In Wales, we are committed to, andachieving, the slaughter of affected animalswithin 24 hours of the report of the disease.In parallel, susceptible animals on adjoiningpremises to farms where cases have beenconfirmed must be culled within 48 hours.That policy has been adopted throughoutGreat Britain. The policy is based on soundscientific advice that slaughter onidentification of the disease will make asignificant impact in controlling the spread ofthe disease and its eventual eradication. InAnglesey, the cull of sheep continues andearlier local difficulties have been resolvedand, to date, about 30,000 animals have beenslaughtered. We expect that about 95 per centof the process will be completed by the endof the week. In mid Wales, site preparationsat Epynt have been completed and disposal atthe site will commence shortly. I regret verymuch the incident last weekend at Epynt,which resulted in a serious injury to amember of the Dyfed Powys Constabulary. Iknow that Members will join me in wishinghim a speedy recovery.

Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig(Carwyn Jones): Ar hyn o bryd mae 57 oachosion pendant o glwy’r traed a’r genauyng Nghymru—13 ar Ynys Môn, 35 ymMhowys a naw yn Sir Fynwy—a chwe achostybiedig. Y flaenoriaeth o hyd yw rheoli adileu’r clefyd. Yng Nghymru, rydym ynymrwymedig i ladd anifeiliaid yr effeithiwydarnynt o fewn 24 awr i ganfod y clefyd acrydym yn cyflawni hynny. Yn yr un ffordd,rhaid difa anifeiliaid a fydd mewn perygl ogael y clefyd ar eiddo gerllaw ffermydd llecadarnhawyd achosion, o fewn 48 awr.Mabwysiadwyd y polisi hwnnw ledledPrydain Fawr. Mae’r polisi’n seiliedig argyngor penodol cadarn y bydd lladd yn unionar ôl canfod y clefyd yn cael effaithsylweddol ar reoli lledaeniad y clwyf a’iddileu yn y pen draw. Ar Ynys Môn, mae’rgwaith o ddifa defaid yn parhau a datryswydanawsterau lleol cynharach a, hyd yma,lladdwyd tua 30,000 o anifeiliaid.Disgwyliwn y bydd tua 95 y cant o’r broseswedi’i chwblhau erbyn diwedd yr wythnos.Yng nghanolbarth Cymru, cwblhawydparatoadau safle ar fynydd Epynt a byddgwaredu ar y safle yn dechrau’n fuan.Gresynnaf yn fawr at y digwyddiad ar fynyddEpynt y penwythnos diwethaf, a arweinioddat beri anaf difrifol i aelod o Heddlu DyfedPowys. Gwn y bydd Aelodau yn ymuno â mii ddymuno gwellhad buan iddo.

Elsewhere in Wales, the slaughter of animalswith confirmed cases, and their contacts,

Mewn mannau eraill yng Nghymru, mae’rgwaith o ladd anifeiliaid ag achosion o’r

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continues. Foot and mouth is a perniciousdisease, and I make no apology for the drasticconsequences of the action taken to controlits spread, which has been supported by thefarming unions. On Tuesday, the PrimeMinister met representatives of the farmingcommunity and other interests, with whom hehad frank and constructive discussions.

clwyf a gadarnhawyd, a’r rhai a fu mewncysylltiad â hwy, yn parhau. Mae clwy’rtraed a’r genau yn glefyd enbyd, ac nidymddiheuraf am ganlyniadau llym y camau agymerwyd i reoli ei ledaeniad, a gefnogwydgan yr undebau ffermio. Ar ddydd Mawrth,cyfarfu’r Prif Weinidog â chynrychiolwyr o’rgymuned ffermio a buddiannau eraill, achafodd drafodaethau agored ac adeiladolgyda hwy.

I recognise that the measures that have beenput in place to control the disease,particularly movement restrictions, couldhave an adverse effect on the welfare ofanimals that are not linked directly to footand mouth disease. We have introducedschemes to allow the movement ofsusceptible animals under strict licensedarrangements. These arrangements haveeased some of the welfare difficulties thatmay have arisen. For various reasons thereare animals whose condition leaves littleoption other than slaughter. In such cases thelivestock welfare disposal scheme operatedby the intervention board applies. Thescheme has operational difficulties. Theboard is attempting to resolve these as amatter of urgency. The difficulties wereraised with the Prime Minister in his meetingin Usk on Tuesday.

Cydnabyddaf y gallai’r mesurau addefnyddiwyd i reoli’r clwyf, yn enwedigcyfyngu ar symud, gael effaith andwyol ar lesyr anifeiliaid nad ydynt yn uniongyrcholgysylltiedig â chlwy’r traed a’r genau.Cyflwynasom gynlluniau i ganiatáu symudanifeiliaid sydd yn debygol o gael y clwyf odan drefniadau trwyddedig llym. Mae’rtrefniadau hyn wedi lleddfu rhai o’ranawsterau lles a allai fod wedi codi. Amresymau amrywiol ceir anifeiliaid y mae eucyflwr yn golygu nad oes unrhyw opsiwnarall ond eu lladd. Mewn achosion o’r fathmae’r cynllun lles da byw-gwaredu aweithredir gan y bwrdd ymyrraeth ynberthnasol. Mae gan y cynllun anawsteraugweithredol. Mae’r bwrdd yn ceisio datrys yrhain ar fyrder. Codwyd yr anawsterau gyda’rPrif Weinidog yn ei gyfarfod ym Mrynbugaddydd Mawrth.

9:45 a.m.

Agriculture department staff in divisionaloffices and in Cardiff are making every effortto respond positively to farmers at thisdifficult time for the industry. It will notalways be possible to provide the responsethat individual farmers are seeking. There isan operations control centre in Cathays Parkthat is responsible for co-ordinating actionrelating to the slaughter and disposal of footand mouth diseased animals and theircontacts. The operations director is a seniorofficial in the agriculture department and issupported by personnel from the army, thestate veterinary service, the environmentagency and the police. In addition to theNational Assembly’s helpline the operationscontrol centre is establishing informationcentres in Powys and Monmouthshire toensure that accurate and timely information isavailable in these localities.

Mae staff yr adran amaethyddiaeth mewnswyddfeydd is-adrannol yng Nghaerdydd yngwneud pob ymdrech i ymateb yn gadarnhaoli ffermwyr ar yr adeg anodd hon i’rdiwydiant. Ni fydd yn bosibl ymateb yn ôldymuniad pob ffermwr bob amser. Maecanolfan rheoli gweithrediadau ym MharcCathays sydd yn gyfrifol am gydlynu camaugweithredu yn ymwneud â lladd a gwareduanifeiliaid sydd yn dioddef o glwy’r traed a’rgenau a’r rhai a fu mewn cysylltiad â hwy.Mae’r cyfarwyddwr gweithrediadau yn uwchswyddog yn yr adran amaethyddiaeth a chaiffei gynorthwyo gan bersonél o’r fyddin, ygwasanaeth milfeddygol gwladol, asiantaethyr amgylchedd a’r heddlu. Yn ogystal âllinell gymorth y Cynulliad Cenedlaetholmae’r ganolfan rheoli gweithrediadau ynsefydlu canolfannau gwybodaeth ymMhowys a Sir Fynwy i sicrhau bodgwybodaeth amserol a chywir ar gael yn yr

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ardaloedd hyn.

I do not consider that the scale of the diseasein Wales justifies the use of vaccination. Thatis the professional advice that I havereceived. There are approximately 25,000farmers in Wales and 57 confirmed cases offoot and mouth disease. I must bear thosefigures in mind when I consider vaccination.The livestock population in Wales of sheep,cattle and pigs is approximately 12.6 millionanimals. They would be at risk if our reactiondoes not concentrate on controlling anderadicating the disease.

Nid ystyriaf fod graddfa’r clefyd yngNghymru yn cyfiawnhau’r defnydd o frechu.Dyna’r cyngor proffesiynol a dderbyniais.Mae bron i 25,000 o ffermwyr yng Nghymrua 57 achos wedi’i gadarnhau o glwy’r traeda’r genau. Rhaid imi gofio’r ffigurau hynnywrth imi ystyried brechu. Mae nifer y da bywyng Nghymru sydd yn cynnwys defaid,gwartheg a moch tua 12.6 miliwn. Byddentmewn perygl oni fydd ein hymateb yncanolbwyntio ar reoli a dileu’r clwyf.

Elin Jones: Ers inni gael y datganiaddiwethaf ar glwy’r traed a’r genau, aeth nifero gymunedau yng Nghymru drwy gyfnodcythryblus. Mae’r clwyf yn peri gwewyr i’rffermwyr sydd yn wynebu difa eu stoc adiddymu eu bywoliaeth. Bu hefyd yn anoddar y cymunedau hynny a fydd yn collimiloedd o anifeiliaid. Mae rhaipenderfyniadau wedi cael eu gorfodi ar ycymunedau hyn. Beth bynnag am eichbwriad, Weinidog, nid yw’r penderfyniadauam ddifa anifeiliaid wedi cael eu cyfleumewn ffordd sensitif nac effeithiol yn YnysMôn, Epynt, nac ym Merthyr Tudful. Awnewch chi sicrhau y bydd pob cymuned ynderbyn yr wybodaeth angenrheidiol ynglŷn âdifa a llosgi anifeiliaid a fydd yn digwydd ofewn eu hardal? Mae’n bwysig eu bod ynderbyn gwybodaeth am y dadleuonamgylcheddol a diogelwch mewn da bryd.Dylai pob cartref dderbyn gwybodaethysgrifenedig. Mae gwybodaeth o’r math hwnyn sicrhau na fydd unrhyw gamwybodaeth yncael ei lledaenu o fewn cymunedau.

Elin Jones: Since we had the last statementon foot and mouth disease, a number ofcommunities in Wales have experienced aturbulent period. The disease is causinganguish to those farmers who are facing thedestruction of their stock and livelihood. Ithas also been difficult for those communitiesthat will lose thousands of animals. Somedecisions have been forced on thesecommunities. Whatever your intention,Minister, the decisions on culling animalshave not been conveyed in a sensitive nor aneffective way in Anglesey, Epynt or inMerthyr Tydfil. Will you ensure that everycommunity receives the necessaryinformation regarding the culling and burningof animals that will happen in their area? It isimportant that they receive information onthe environmental and safety arguments inplenty of time. Every home should receivewritten information. Such informationensures that no misinformation is circulatedin communities.

Clywsom ddoe nad yw brechu yn ystyriaethar gyfer y tymor byr yn Lloegr bellach. Pe baiNick Brown yn newid ei feddwl, a chan eichbod chi a Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledigyr Alban yn parhau i wrthod brechu—ac yrydych wedi cadarnhau hynny heddiw eto—afyddai penderfyniad i frechu yn Lloegr yndylanwadu ar statws rhydd o’r clefyd Cymru?A fyddai’r penderfyniad hwnnw yn effeithioar allu cynhyrchwyr Cymru i allforio yn ytymor canol neu a fydd gan Gymru yr hawl igael ei hystyried ar wahân oherwydd eistatws rhydd o’r clefyd?

We heard yesterday that vaccination is nolonger being considered in England in theshort term. If Nick Brown were to change hismind, and since you and the Scottish RuralAffairs Minister are continuing to resistvaccination—and you confirmed that againtoday—would a decision to vaccinate inEngland influence Wales’s disease-freestatus? Would that decision effect the abilityof producers in Wales to export in themedium term, or would Wales have the rightto separate consideration because of thedisease-free status?

Mae tymor y Pasg ar gychwyn a bydd Easter is upon us and hundreds of thousands

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cannoedd o filoedd o ŵyn yn cyrraedd yfarchnad cyn bo hir a’r farchnad allforio wediei chau iddynt. Pa drefniadau sydd mewnllaw i gryfhau’r ymdrech marchnata cig oen achig eidion—ond cig oen yn benodol—ofewn Cymru a gwledydd eraill Prydain drosgyfnod sydd mor allweddol bwysig iffermwyr defaid Cymru?

of lambs will go to market shortly with theexport market closed to them. Whatarrangements are in place to strengthen themarketing campaign for lamb and beef—butparticularly lamb—within Wales and othercountries in Britain over such a crucial periodfor sheep farmers in Wales?

Ar fater etholaethol, gwyddoch fod gogleddCeredigion o fewn ardal heintus ers i glwy’rtraed a’r genau gael ei gadarnhau yn lladd-dyLlanidloes. Yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallaf, mae’rlladd-dy yn weithredol erbyn hyn, ond nichodwyd y statws heintus ar ogleddCeredigion. Pa bryd y codir y gwaharddiadauhyn gan nad oes synnwyr mewn parhau âhwy?

On a constituency matter, as you know, northCeredigion is within an infected area sincethe confirmation of foot and mouth disease atLlanidloes abattoir. I understand that theabattoir is now operating, although theinfected area status has not been lifted fromnorth Ceredigion. When will theseprohibitions be lifted as there is no sense incontinuing with them?

Carwyn Jones: Ynglŷn â’r manylion,cyhoeddodd Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd frîffy bore yma er mwyn esbonio wrth bobl bethyn union a wneir i sicrhau diogelwch safleEpynt. Bydd ar gael i’r cyhoedd.

Carwyn Jones: As regards the details, theEnvironment Agency published a brief thismorning to explain to people exactly what isbeing done to ensure the safety of the Epyntsite. It will be made available to the public.

Ar y sefyllfa yn Ynys Môn, ymwelais â’rYnys ddydd Gwener diwethaf er mwynsiarad â’r bobl sydd yn byw gyferbyn â saflePenhesgyn. Yr oeddwn yno hefyd ddydd Suli gyfarfod â hwy gyda Phrif Weinidog Cymruac Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru.

As regards the situation in Anglesey, I visitedthe island last Friday in order to speak to thepeople who live adjacent to the Penhesgynsite. I was also there on Sunday to meet themtogether with the First Minister and theSecretary of State for Wales.

Ynglŷn â mynydd Epynt, yn Aberhonddu nosWener, cyfarfûm â chynrychiolwyr o’r rhai afu’n protestio ar Fynydd Epynt a chawsomdrafodaeth. Yn ogystal, ymwelais â mynyddEpynt brynhawn dydd Sadwrn diwethaf igwrdd unwaith eto gyda rhai a fu’n protestioac i edrych ar y safle.

As regards Epynt, I met with representativesof the Epynt protesters in Brecon on Fridayand we discussed this issue. I also visitedEpynt last Saturday afternoon, in order tomeet some of the protesters again and to lookat the site.

Mae rhai pobl yn lledaenu manylion hollolanghywir. Wrth gwrs, mae hynny’n digwyddmewn sefyllfa o’r fath. Dyna pam ygofynnais i Asiantaeth yr Amgycheddgynhyrchu’r brîff hwn. Cynhelir cyfarfod ybore yma rhwng swyddogion y Cynulliad,milfeddygon, swyddogion Asiantaeth yrAmgylchedd, yr heddlu a rhai o’r bobl leol ermwyn esbonio’r sefyllfa ar yr Epynt unwaitheto.

Some people are circulating totally incorrectdetails. That is bound to happen in such asituation. That is why I asked theEnvironment Agency to produce this brief. Ameeting will be held this morning, betweenAssembly officials, vets, representatives ofthe Environment Agency, the police andsome local people in order to explain thesituation on Epynt again.

Ar fater brechu, pe byddai Nick Brown ynpenderfynu brechu yn Lloegr, ni olyga hynny100 y cant y byddai Cymru yn colli statwsgwlad sydd yn rhydd o’r clwyf, pe byddem

On the issue of vaccination, if Nick Brownwere to decide to vaccinate in England, itwould not be 100 per cent certain that Waleswould lose its disease free status, if we

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eisiau allforio. Mewn gwledydd eraill, maerhai rhanbarthau yn gallu allforio ac eraillddim. Aeth Gogledd Iwerddon ar hyd ytrywydd hwn er mwyn mynd at y ComisiwnEwropeaidd a dweud wrtho y dylent alluallforio o Ogledd Iwerddon ac eithrio ardalde Armagh. Mae’r clwyf wedi lledu’n fwyyng Nghymru nag yng Ngogledd Iwerddon.Nid yw hyn yn berthnasol inni ar hyn o bryd.Pe baem yn rhydd o’r clwyf yng Nghymru abod anifeiliad wedi eu brechu yn Lloegr,golyga hynny ei bod yn bosibl inni fynd at yComisiwn Ewropeaidd i sicrhau y gallwnallforio unwaith eto. Os bydd brechu yndigwydd mewn un rhan o’r Deyrnas Unedig,ni chredaf y golyga hynny fod rhannau eraillo’r Deyrnas Unedig yn methu ag allforio.

wanted to export. In other countries someregions are able to export and others not.Northern Ireland went down this route inorder to approach the European Commissionand say that they should be able to exportfrom Northern Ireland with the exception ofthe South Armagh area. The disease is morewidespread in Wales than in NorthernIreland. That is not relevant to us at themoment. If Wales were disease-free, andsome animals had been vaccinated inEngland, that would mean that it would bepossible to approach the EuropeanCommission in order for us to ensure that wecould export once again. If there isvaccination in one part of the UnitedKingdom, I do not believe that it means thatother parts of the United Kingdom cannotexport.

Er mwyn hybu’r farchnad, cyfarfûm eisoes âHybu Cig Oen a Chig Eidion Cymru Cyfsydd yn edrych yn fanwl ar yr hyn y mae’nrhaid ei wneud i gefnogi’r farchnadBrydeinig, ar gyfer cig oen a phob cig oGymru, er mwyn gwneud iawn am golli’rfarchnad dramor ar hyn o bryd. Maecynlluniau ar y gweill. Mae arianychwanegol wedi mynd at y WDA er mwynhybu Cymru.

In order to promote the market, I havealready met with Welsh Lamb and BeefPromotions Limited and it is looking in detailat what must be done to support the Britishmarket for lamb and all meats from Wales, inorder to compensate for the current loss ofoverseas markets. Plans are in the pipeline.Additional funding has been given to theWDA so that it can promote Wales.

Cefais sgwrs ag Elin ddoe ynglŷn â gogleddCeredigion. Codasom y mater gyda’rmilfeddygon yn Llundain sydd yn gwneudpenderfyniadau ynglŷn ag ardaloedd heintus.Pwysom arnynt i ddod i benderfyniad agobeithiwn dderbyn y penderfyniad hwnnwcyn gynted â bo modd.

I spoke to Elin yesterday regarding northCeredigion. We raised this matter with thevets in London who take decisions oninfected areas. We have urged them to cometo a decision and we hope to hear of theirdecision as soon as possible.

Alun Pugh: Your visits around Wales willhave informed you of the tourism industry’sdifficulties and you will be aware thatfencing schemes are in place in north Walesto keep livestock away from climbing areas.If large areas of mountainside could becleared of the few sheep that are there, and astock-proof fence installed in order to openup access, would that compromise the fightagainst foot and mouth disease? If not, willyou accompany me to the summit ofSnowdon to send a clear message that Walesis open for business?

Alun Pugh: Gan ichi ymweld â gwahanolrannau o Gymru, bydd anawsterau’rdiwydiant twristiaeth yn hysbys ichi abyddwch yn ymwybodol bod cynlluniauffensio ar waith yng ngogledd Cymru i gadwda byw i ffwrdd o’r ardaloedd dringo. Pegellid clirio ardaloedd mawr ar ochr ymynyddoedd o’r ychydig ddefaid sydd yno, agosod ffens atal anifeiliaid er mwyn sicrhaumynediad, a fyddai hynny yn cyfaddawdu’rfrwydr yn erbyn clwy’r traed a’r genau? Osna, a ddewch gyda mi i gopa’r Wyddfa ianfon neges glir bod Cymru ar agor ar gyferbusnes?

Carwyn Jones: The train does not reach the Carwyn Jones: Nid yw’r trên yn cyrraedd

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summit of Snowdon. I have no intention ofclimbing with you to the top of Snowdon, asI know that you will take great pleasure whenI flake out less than half way up. I will haveto decline that invitation.

copa’r Wyddfa. Nid oes gennyf unrhywfwriad i ddringo gyda chi i gopa’r Wyddfa,oherwydd gwn y byddech yn cael crynfwynhad wrth fy ngweld yn llewygu llai nahanner ffordd i fyny’r mynydd. Bydd rhaidimi wrthod y gwahoddiad hwnnw.

9:55 a.m.

Alun Cairns: You will have to take the train. Alun Cairns: Bydd yn rhaid ichi gymryd ytrên.

Carwyn Jones: I would if it went all the wayto the top.

Carwyn Jones: Byddwn yn gwneud hynnype bai’n mynd yr holl ffordd i’r copa.

As far as fencing is concerned, we areconsidering a scheme that might facilitateyour suggestion. Further details will beavailable when the scheme is finalised.

O ran gosod ffensys, rydym yn ystyriedcynllun a allai hwyluso eich awgrym. Byddmanylion pellach ar gael pan fydd y cynllunar ei ffurf derfynol.

Peter Rogers: I listened to what you had tosay, and I am pleased that you now recognisethe importance of confirming theslaughtering and disposing of infectedcarcasses within 24 hours. This has been oneof the main causes of the problems,particularly in my area. I will raise someissues that are causing problems, beginningwith the intervention board, as you havealready mentioned the animal welfareslaughter. It is impossible to get through tothe intervention board. Yesterday, I wascontacted by people who had been trying forthree days to get through on its numbers. Itook it upon myself to contact theintervention board, and I could not getthrough. Eventually I did get through to asenior member of staff, who took a hand-written message to the people on telephonelines. I have not received a response to thatmessage.

Peter Rogers: Gwrandewais ar yr hyn yroedd gennych i’w ddweud, ac yr wyf yn falcheich bod bellach yn cydnabod pwysigrwyddcadarnhau lladd a gwaredu cyrff yreffeithiwyd arnynt o fewn 24 awr. Bu hyn ynun o brif achosion y problemau, yn enwedigyn fy ardal i. Byddaf yn codi rhai materionsydd yn achosi problemau, gan ddechrau’rgyda’r bwrdd ymyrraeth, oherwydd eich bodeisoes wedi crybwyll lladd er lles anifeiliaid.Mae’n amhosibl cysylltu â’r bwrddymyrraeth. Ddoe, siaradais â phobl a fu’nceisio mynd drwodd ar ei rifau ers tridiwrnod. Euthum ati fy hunan i gysylltu â’rbwrdd ymyrraeth, ond ni chefais ateb. O’rdiwedd cysylltais ag uwch aelod o’r staff, aaeth â neges ysgrifenedig at y bobl ar yllinellau ffôn. Ni dderbyniais ymateb i’rneges honno.

Our problem in Wales is that welfareproblems do not improve each hour. They getworse. Unless we address some of theseproblems, and bring in extra help, theproblem will become severe across Wales.The intervention board, to date, has onlyhandled 50,000 animals and has a backlog inexcess of 1.25 million animals. This figureonly includes the cases already reported tothe board. With regard to pig farmers, youmust remember that they have farrowingunits, weaner units and fattening units. Whenyou block up the fattening unit, you cannot

Ein problem yng Nghymru yw’r ffaith nadyw problemau lles yn gwella bob awr. Maentyn gwaethygu. Oni bai ein bod yn mynd i’rafael â rhai o’r problemau hyn, a dod âchymorth ychwanegol i mewn, bydd ybroblem yn mynd yn ddifrifol ar drawsCymru. Hyd yn hyn, dim ond 50,000 oanifeiliaid y mae’r bwrdd ymyrraeth wediymdrin â hwy ac mae ganddo ôl-groniad o1.25 miliwn o anifeiliaid. Dim ond yrachosion a gofnodwyd eisoes gyda’r bwrdd agynhwysir yn y ffigur hwn. Mewn perthynasâ ffermwyr moch, rhaid ichi gofio bod

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move the pigs from the farrowing unit to theweaner unit, and the whole system becomesblocked. In one case in Anglesey, there arepigs in a weaner unit too big to fit into theirhousing. We also have big and dangerousboars. Those farmers have already had aweek’s delay, but they cannot get satisfactoryanswers. If people could explain the delay tothem, or give them a date to look forward to,it would be better. The economic devastationis getting worse because of the feed bills.

ganddynt hwy unedau mocha, unedaudiddyfnu ac unedau tewhau. Pan fyddwch ynrhwystro’r uned dewhau, ni allwch symud ymoch o’r uned focha i’r uned ddiddyfnu arhwystrir yr holl system. Mewn un achos arYnys Môn, ceir moch mewn uned ddiddyfnusydd yn rhy fawr i’w rhoi yn eu cartrefi. Ynogystal, mae gennym faeddod mawr apheryglus. Cafodd y ffermwyr hynnywythnos o oedi eisoes, ond ni allant gaelatebion boddhaol. Pe bai pobl yn galluegluro’r oedi wrthynt, neu roi dyddiad iddyntedrych ymlaen ato, byddai’n well. Mae’rdinistr economaidd yn gwaethygu oganlyniad i’r biliau porthiant.

The intervention board is in disarray. I wouldbe pleased if your staff could try those lines. Ihave eight numbers—which I would behappy to give to you—and I failed to getthrough on any of them yesterday. We mustaddress this problem, because we have cattlethat must be destroyed, and sheep withdisease build-up that cannot be moved, andthere are fodder shortages.

Mae anhrefn yn y bwrdd ymyrraeth. Byddwnyn falch pe gallai eich staff geisio ffonio’rllinellau hynny. Mae gennyf wyth rhif—ybyddwn yn falch i’w rhoi ichi—a methais âchysylltu ag un ohonynt ddoe. Rhaid innifynd i’r afael â’r broblem hon, oherwydd maegennym wartheg y mae’n rhaid eu difa, adefaid sydd yn dioddef o’r clwyf na ellir eusymud, a cheir prinder porthiant.

We also have the problem of movementlicences. You know that Ynys Môn has nodisinfectant centre, and that Anglesey farmersare expected to go all the way to Ruthin—some 80 or 90 miles away—to disinfectvehicles. After moving stock, they have totravel 80 or 90 miles to Ruthin to disinfectthose vehicles again. One farmer movinganimals to a particular area went to Ruthin todisinfect his vehicle between every load.

Mae gennym y broblem o drwyddedausymud hefyd. Gwyddoch nad oes gan YnysMôn ganolfan ddiheintio, ac y disgwylir iffermwyr Ynys Môn fynd yr holl ffordd iRhuthun—rhyw 80 neu 90 milltir i ffwrdd—iddiheintio eu cerbydau. Ar ôl symud stoc,rhaid iddynt deithio 80 neu 90 milltir iRhuthun i ddiheintio’r cerbydau hynnyunwaith eto. Aeth un ffermwr, a oedd ynsymud anifeiliaid i ardal arbennig, i Rhuthuni ddiheintio ei gerbyd rhwng bob llwyth.

You have met our council, and you know ofthe disarray it is in. I have been appealing tothe council for a week to set up a disinfectantcentre. Finally, the army offered me somemen, I found spray units and disinfectantunits from MAFF, but the council could notcome up with a site. I went to the RAF at7pm on Friday, and the first vehicle to bedisinfected went through on Sunday morning.That is what we call fast-tracking. That isessential in all parts of Wales. We mustunderstand the problems and start to fast-track solutions.

Yr ydych wedi cwrdd â’n cyngor, agwyddoch am yr anhrefn o’i fewn. Bûm ynpwyso ar y cyngor ers wythnos i sefydlucanolfan ddiheintio. Yn y pen draw, cynigoddy fyddin ychydig o ddynion imi, darganfûmunedau chwistrellu ac unedau diheintio gan yWeinyddiaeth Amaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydda Bwyd, ond ni allai’r Cyngor benderfynu arsafle. Euthum i’r Llu Awyr Brenhinol am7pm ddydd Gwener, a gadawodd y cerbydcyntaf i gael ei ddiheintio fore Sul. Dyna’rhyn y galwn yn llwybr cyflym. Mae hynny’nhanfodol ym mhob rhan o Gymru. Rhaid inniddeall y problemau a dechrau datrysiadaullwybr cyflym.

We now have movement licences, but unless Bellach, mae gennym drwyddedau symud,

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we can process them, the animal welfaredemands will become greater. You will havemore animals put forward on animal welfaregrounds because of the blockage with thelicensing system. In Caernarfon there is a six-day backlog for long distance movement, anda two-day blockage on short journeys. This isunacceptable. The Royal Air Force offeredme a 24-hour disinfecting service if it wasrequired. The Assembly must ensure thatlicences can be dealt with in exactly the sameway. I spoke to one of the generals incharge—General Arthur Devaro—at RAFValley on Tuesday. He has visited the sitesacross Wales. He immediately offered to putextra staff into Caernarfon to help the licencesituation, because he realised how dire theconsequences would be. What can we do toget extra personnel to move licensing forwardon this programme? We must have fast-tracking.

ond oni allwn eu prosesu, bydd y galwadau oran lles anifeiliaid yn cynyddu. Byddgennych fwy o anifeiliaid a gyflwynir ar saillles anifeiliaid o ganlyniad i’r rhwystrau yn ysystem drwyddedu. Yng Nghaernarfon, ceirôl-groniad o chwe diwrnod ar gyfer symudanifeiliaid dros bellter hir, a rhwystr dauddiwrnod ar gyfer teithiau byr. Mae hyn ynannerbyniol. Cynigodd y Llu AwyrBrenhinol wasanaeth diheintio 24 awr imi osoedd yn ofynnol. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad sicrhauy gellir delio â thrwyddedau yn yr un moddyn union. Siaradais ag un o’r cadfridogion aoedd â gofal—Cadfridog Arthur Devaro—yny Llu Awyr Brenhinol, Fali ddydd Mawrth.Ymwelodd â safleoedd ledled Cymru.Cynigiodd ar unwaith i roi staff ychwanegolyng Nghaernarfon i helpu gyda sefyllfa’rtrwyddedau, oherwydd sylweddolodd pa morenbyd fyddai’r canlyniadau. Beth y gallwn niei wneud i gael personél ychwanegol i symudy trwyddedu ymlaen ar y rhaglen hon? Rhaidinni gael dull llwybr-cyflym.

Ten days ago I mentioned the problems in thedairy industry of getting cows in calf,particularly the 90 cows that were due to beinseminated on the Tuesday. You told me andTony Edwards, the vet, that you would agreethat an artificial insemination inseminatorcould be disinfected before he went on to thefarm, and after he came off the farm, as longas the semen came from a clean area. Wehave semen from a clean area. When we wentto get the licences, we were told inCaernarfon that they did not care what theMinister for Rural Affairs, the ChiefVeterinary Officer or Peter Rogers said, wecould not inseminate those cows. Theconsequential loss to that dairy farmer,because those cows will not be calving inJanuary next year, will be £10,000. If we donot get them inseminated in six days’ time,that will be another £10,000, and those cowswill have to go to the welfare scheme to beput down.

Ddeng niwrnod yn ôl, crybwyllais yproblemau yn y diwydiant llaeth o gaelgwartheg cyflo, yn enwedig y 90 o wartheg ybwriadwyd eu semenu ar y dydd Mawrth.Dywedasoch wrthyf fi a Tony Edwards, ymilfeddyg, y byddech yn cytuno y gelliddiheintio’r person a oedd yn cyflawni’rsemenu artiffisial cyn iddo fynd ar y fferm,ac ar ôl iddo adael y fferm, ar yr amod bod ysemen yn dod o ardal lân. Mae gennymsemen o ardal lân. Pan aethom i nôl ytrwyddedau, dywedwyd wrthym yngNghaernarfon nad oedd ots ganddynt beth addywedodd y Gweinidog dros FaterionGwledig, y Prif Swyddog Milfeddygol, naPeter Rogers, ni allem semenu’r gwartheghynny. Bydd y golled ganlyniadol i’r ffermwrllaeth hwnnw, oherwydd na fydd y gwartheghynny’n dod â lloi ym mis Ionawr yflwyddyn nesaf, yn £10,000. Os na fyddwnyn eu semenu o fewn chwe diwrnod, byddhynny’n £10,000 ychwanegol, a bydd ynrhaid i’r gwartheg hynny fynd i’r cynllun llesi’w difa.

We must address the serious issues ofartificial insemination, and moving bulls.You said that you had no objection to puttinga bull on a farm as long as it stayed on thatfarm. We cannot get a movement licence todo that. We must address that. We also have

Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â materion difrifolsemenu artiffisial, a symud teirw.Dywedasoch nad oedd gennych unrhywwrthwynebiad i roi tarw ar fferm, ar yr amodei fod yn aros ar y fferm honno. Ni allwn gaeltrwydded symud i wneud hynny. Rhaid inni

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many animals across Wales—fat lambs andfat cattle—in prime condition for marketingto go into the food chain. We must addressthis. Another important point is sites for thedisposal of slaughtered stock. I was aware ofthe problems created in Anglesey, and I amaware of the problems that have beeninvolved in Brecon. For goodness’ sake, letus make it a standing rule that in future allslaughtered stock in infected areas stay inthose infected areas. If you are evercontemplating burial sites again, consult withlocal people with local knowledge whounderstand the problems. Using Monaairfield would be a perfect example of that.

fynd i’r afael â hynny. Yn ogystal, maegennym nifer o anifeiliaid ledled Cymru—ŵyn tew a gwartheg tew—yn y cyflwr gorauar gyfer eu marchnata i fynd i’r gadwynfwyd. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â hyn. Pwyntpwysig arall yw safleoedd ar gyfer gwaredu’ranifeiliaid a laddwyd. Yr oeddwn ynymwybodol o’r problemau a grëwyd ar YnysMôn, ac yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r problemaua gafwyd ym Mrycheiniog. Er mwyn popeth,gadewch inni ei wneud yn rheol sefydlog bodyr holl anifeiliaid a leddir mewn ardaloeddheintus yn aros yn yr ardaloedd heintushynny yn y dyfodol. Os byddwch byth ynystyried safleoedd claddu eto,ymgynghorwch â phobl leol â gwybodaethleol sydd yn deall y problemau. Byddaidefnyddio maes awyr Mona yn enghraifftberffaith o hynny.

Carwyn Jones: On the slaughtered stock, theEpynt is in an infected area. That point hasbeen made many times. It is not a question ofanimals being brought into a clean area. Withregard to Penhesgyn, as you know, there wasno other site in Anglesey. We either had thecull or we did not have the cull. If we did nothave the cull, the island’s situation would bedisastrous, quite frankly. We have to operateon the basis of finding sites that theEnvironment Agency is content with. As faras Penhesgyn is concerned, the counciloriginally did not want us to use Penhesgynand, therefore, Mona was the only site. Thecouncil subsequently changed its mind andPenhesgyn became available. It was alwaysthe first choice site as far as the EnvironmentAgency was concerned. Having been toAnglesey and sat in on what was almost a fullcouncil meeting on Sunday, I have no desirewhatsoever to get involved with the politicsof that island. On Sunday neither the FirstMinister nor I were prepared to take sides onwhat is clearly a lively situation on Angleseycouncil.

Carwyn Jones: O ran yr anifeiliaid aladdwyd, mae’r Epynt yn ardal heintus.Gwnaethpwyd y pwynt hwnnw sawl gwaith.Nid yw’n ymwneud â dod ag anifeiliaid imewn i ardal lân. Mewn perthynas âPhenhesgyn, fel y gwyddoch, nid oeddunrhyw safle arall ar Ynys Môn. Naill aicyflawnwyd y difa, neu ni chyflawnwyd ydifa. Pe na chyflawnwyd y difa, byddai’rsefyllfa ar yr ynys yn drychinebus, mewngwirionedd. Rhaid inni weithredu ar y sail oddarganfod safleoedd y mae Asiantaeth yrAmgylchedd yn fodlon arnynt. O ranPenhesgyn, nid oedd y cyngor am inniddefnyddio Penhesgyn yn wreiddiol ac, felly,Mona oedd yr unig safle. Yn dilyn hynny,newidiodd y cyngor ei feddwl ac yr oeddPenhesgyn ar gael. Y safle hwn oedd dewiscyntaf Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd o’rcychwyn. Ar ôl bod ar Ynys Môn ac eisteddyn yr hyn a oedd bron yn gyfarfod llawn ycyngor ar ddydd Sul, nid oes gennyf unrhywddymuniad o gwbl i ymhel â gwleidyddiaethyr ynys honno. Ar ddydd Sul, nid oedd y PrifWeinidog na minnau yn barod i gefnogiunrhyw du ar yr hyn sydd yn amlwg ynsefyllfa fywiog ar gyngor Ynys Môn.

On the intervention board, there have beendifficulties. The board is installing a newtelephone system to ease the difficulties offarmers who are lodging applications. Thedifficulties that have arisen are beingresolved urgently. As of yesterday, the boardhas received some 740 applications from

O ran y bwrdd ymyrraeth, cafwydanawsterau. Mae’r bwrdd yn gosod systemffôn newydd i leddfu anawsterau ffermwyrsydd yn gwneud ceisiadau. Caiff yranawsterau a gododd eu datrys ar frys. Erbynddoe, yr oedd y bwrdd wedi derbyn rhyw 740o geisiadau o Gymru. Cydnabuwyd y

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Wales. The problems have been recognised,as I have said. They were raised with thePrime Minister and the board is nowinstalling a new telephone system. A meetingwill be held at Caernarfon on Saturday todeal with welfare issues and you will beinvited to it, Peter. On movement licences, adisinfectant centre in Anglesey is to bewelcomed. It is a matter for the Meat andLivestock Commission to license disinfectingcentres and we have appealed many times forpeople to propose sites for disinfectingcentres. The licensing of any newdisinfecting centre is to be welcomed. If suchcentres can be set up, that is work well doneby those involved. However, it is a matter forthe council to find a site. I hope that one canbe found and confirmed, but it would beunwise for anyone who is not a native of theisland to get involved in its politics.

problemau, fel y dywedais. Fe’u codwydgyda’r Prif Weinidog a bellach mae’r bwrddyn gosod system ffôn newydd. Cynhelircyfarfod yng Nghaernarfon ddydd Sadwrn iymdrin â materion lles ac fe’ch gwahoddirchi, Peter, i fod yn bresennol. O rantrwyddedau symud, croesewir canolfanddiheintio ar Ynys Môn. Cyfrifoldeb yComisiwn Cig a Da Byw yw trwyddeducanolfannau diheintio ac apeliasom sawlgwaith i bobl gynnig safleoedd ar gyfercanolfannau diheintio. Croesewir trwyddeduunrhyw ganolfan ddiheintio newydd. Pegellid sefydlu canolfannau o’r fath, byddaihynny’n waith da gan y bobl a fydd yngysylltiedig. Fodd bynnag, cyfrifoldeb ycyngor yw dod o hyd i safle. Gobeithio ygellir canfod a chadarnhau safle, ondbyddai’n annoeth i unrhyw un nad yw’nfrodor o’r ynys i ymhel â’i gwleidyddiaeth.

10:05 a.m.

The Caernarfon office is working flat out toget the welfare licences and all mattersresolved. When I visited Caernarfon a weeklast Saturday, as you also did, Peter, it wasclear that the office was working as if it werea weekday. If the work being done inCaernarfon needs to be speeded up, we willsee what we can do. I have spoken to theBrigadier commanding the army in Walesand he wanted to make clear that the armycannot do everything. It has to be deployedand asked to undertake an action. Simplybringing in the army does not necessarilyhelp unless it can be deployed properly andhas an action to undertake. Givingoperational control to the army has alreadybeen mooted elsewhere. The army has madeclear that it does not want that. Others herewill know who suggested that.

Mae swyddfa Caernarfon yn gweithio’n ddi-baid i ddatrys y materion yn ymwneud âthrwyddedau lles a’r materion eraill. Panymwelais â Chaernarfon wythnos i ddyddSadwrn diwethaf, fel y gwnaethoch chihefyd, Peter, yr oedd yn amlwg bod yswyddfa’n gweithio fel pe bai’n ddiwrnodgwaith. Os bydd angen cyflymu’r gwaith yngNghaernarfon, ystyriwn yr hyn y gallwn eiwneud. Siaradais â’r Brigadydd sydd ynrheoli’r fyddin yng Nghymru ac yr oedd ambwysleisio na all y fyddin wneud popeth.Rhaid ei threfnu a gofyn iddi ymgymryd âgweithrediad. Nid yw dod â’r fyddin i mewnynddo’i hun yn helpu o reidrwydd oni ellir eithrefnu’n briodol a bod ganddo weithrediadi’w gyflawni. Crybwyllwyd eisoes mewnmannau eraill y dylid rhoi rheolaethweithrediadol i’r fyddin. Pwysleisiodd yfyddin nad oedd yn dymuno hynny. Bydderaill yma yn gwybod pwy awgrymoddhynny.

Finally, on insemination, I do not remembersaying what you claim I said. However, youraise an important point about what needs tobe done in this situation. I will take that upagain this afternoon with the veterinaryofficers and we will see what can be done toprogress matters.

Yn olaf, o ran semenu, ni chofiaf ddweud yrhyn a honnwyd gennych. Fodd bynnag,codwch bwynt pwysig ynglŷn â’r hyn syddangen ei wneud yn y sefyllfa hon. Trafodafhynny unwaith eto y prynhawn yma gyda’rswyddogion milfeddygol a gwelwn beth ygellid ei wneud i ddatblygu’r materion.

Mick Bates: Thank you for your statement. Mick Bates: Diolch am eich datganiad. Yn

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First, I pay tribute again to the efforts ofeveryone concerned: the veterinary service,the army and all those in the unions who haveprovided so much advice to people. Icommend those who have establishedhelplines so that a network of support existsfor everyone who has suffered during thisterrible crisis. Your primary aim is to defeatthe disease and much effort has gone intothat. However, other speakers havementioned the terrible welfare situation thatnow exists on many farms because of therestrictions imposed to control the disease. Ofthose, the infected area has been mentioned. Iwas pleased to hear you talk of a re-examination of infected areas. I would like tohear more about the reduction of infectedareas, because that would alleviate themassive problem of the inability of manyfarmers to sell livestock that is ready for sale.

gyntaf, talaf deyrnged unwaith eto iymdrechion pawb dan sylw: y gwasanaethmilfeddygol, y fyddin a’r holl bobl hynny ynyr undebau a ddarparodd gymaint owybodaeth i bobl. Cymeradwyaf y rhaihynny a sefydlodd linellau cymorth er mwynsicrhau rhwydwaith o gymorth i bawb a fu’ndioddef yn ystod yr argyfwng ofnadwy hwn.Eich prif nod yw gorchfygu’r clwyf arhoddwyd llawer o ymdrech i wneud hynny.Fodd bynnag, crybwyllodd siaradwyr eraill ysefyllfa les ofnadwy sydd bellach yn bodoliar lawer o ffermydd o ganlyniad i’rcyfyngiadau a gyflwynwyd i reoli’r clwyf.O’r rhai hynny, crybwyllwyd yr ardalheintus. Yr oeddwn yn falch i’ch clywed yncyfeirio at ailarchwilio ardaloedd heintus.Hoffwn glywed mwy am leihau ardaloeddheintus, oherwydd byddai hynny’n lleddfu’rbroblem enfawr o anallu llawer o ffermwyr iwerthu da byw sydd yn barod i’w gwerthu.

That leads me to the issue of consequentialloss. As you are aware, many of thoseproducers have fed stock throughout thistime. Those cattle have now exceeded 30months and the lambs now have two teeth,which halves their value. What have you tosay about providing consequential loss forthose producers?

Mae hwn yn fy arwain at fater colledganlyniadol. Fel y gwyddoch, mae nifer o’rcynhyrchwyr hynny wedi bwydo stoc drwygydol yr amser hwn. Bellach mae’r gwartheghynny yn hŷn na 30 mis a bellach mae gan yrŵyn ddau ddant, sydd yn haneru eu gwerth.Beth sydd gennych i’w ddweud am ddarparucolled ganlyniadol i’r cynhyrchwyr hynny?

A greater and more urgent problemmentioned by other speakers, is that theintervention board cannot deal with theimmense suffering that is taking place. Ireceived a letter this morning from aproducer in my constituency describing theheart-breaking circumstances that now existon many farms. Having heard other speakerscomment on this, you should now realise theurgency of it. Please answer these producers’pleas by arranging for the welfare disposalscheme to take place with the urgencyapplied to the removal of livestock forreasons of foot and mouth disease. Theproducer on the welfare disposal scheme alsohas a particular problem that I want you tosolve. There is a flat-rate valuation scheme.As you are aware, on many of these farms,farmers have pedigree animals. Is it possiblefor those producers to have flat-rate valuationapplied to most of their stock, but a separatevaluation for stock that is worth far in excessof the agreed rates? If the Minister cananswer these questions, he would alleviate

Problem fwy ac un bwysicach a grybwyllwydgan siaradwyr eraill, yw’r ffaith na all ybwrdd ymyrraeth ymdrin â’r dioddefaintanhygoel a geir. Derbyniais lythyr y boreyma gan gynhyrchydd yn fy etholaeth yndisgrifio’r amgylchiadau torcalonnus a geirbellach ar lawer o ffermydd. Ar ôl clywedsiaradwyr eraill yn rhoi eu safbwyntiau arhyn, dylech, erbyn hyn, sylweddoli eibwysigrwydd. A wnewch chi ateb ymbiliau’rcynhyrchwyr hyn drwy drefnu y cynhelir ycynllun lles-gwaredu gyda’r un brys âgwaredu anifeiliaid yn sgîl clwy’r traed a’rgenau. Yn ogystal, mae gan y cynhyrchydd ary cynllun lles-gwaredu broblem arbennig yrwyf am ichi ei datrys. Ceir cynllun prisiadcyfradd unffurf. Fel y gwyddoch, ar nifer o’rffermydd hyn, mae gan ffermwyr anifeiliaidpedigrî. A yw’n bosibl i’r cynhyrchwyrhynny sicrhau y cymhwysir prisiad cyfraddunffurf i’r rhan fwyaf o’u hanifeiliaid, ondprisiad ar wahân ar gyfer anifeiliaid syddwerth mwy o lawer na’r cyfraddau cytûn? Osgall y Gweinidog ateb y cwestiynau hyn,

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many of the problems that are drivingproducers to despair.

byddai’n lleddfu nifer o’r problemau sydd ynllethu cynhyrchwyr ag anobaith.

I will end on a positive note. In every one ofmy statements or questions on this issue Ihave asked for information, which you havestubbornly refused to provide to producers. Iput on record my congratulations to thepeople in Montgomeryshire who workedtogether to produce a question and answersheet to help producers in the area overcomemany of their anxieties.

Gorffennaf ar nodyn cadarnhaol. Ym mhobun o’m datganiadau neu gwestiynau ar ymater hwn gofynnais am wybodaeth, ygwrthodasoch yn ystyfnig ei darparu igynhyrchwyr. Cofnodaf fy llongyfarchiadaui’r bobl yn Sir Drefaldwyn a weithioddgyda’i gilydd i gynhyrchu taflen cwestiwn acateb i helpu cynhyrchwyr yn yr ardal ioresgyn nifer o’u pryderon.

Carwyn Jones: Mick showed me thatquestion and answer sheet yesterday, whichhe produced. The Assembly has set up anoffice in Montgomery town, which acts as aliaison point between the Assembly and thefarming unions on the ground. We areproviding information, including questionand answer briefings, as I indicated to youyesterday.

Carwyn Jones: Dangosodd Mick y daflencwestiwn ac ateb honno a gynhyrchwydganddo imi ddoe. Sefydlodd y Cynulliadswyddfa yn nhref Trefaldwyn, sydd yngweithredu fel pwynt cyswllt rhwng yCynulliad ac undebau ffermio ar lawr gwlad.Yr ydym yn darparu gwybodaeth, yncynnwys brîffiau cwestiwn ac ateb, fel ynodais ddoe.

I will take up your point about the flat-ratevaluation scheme and the possibility ofhaving a split valuation. The flat-ratevaluation scheme applies in this matter but Iwill take up your point about pedigreeanimals and give you an answer. Youreiterate the welfare situation, and Irecognise, as I told Peter Rogers, that thesituation is extremely difficult for manyfarmers.

Trafodaf eich pwynt am y cynllun prisiadcyfradd unffurf a’r posibilrwydd o gaelprisiad rhanedig. Mae’r cynllun prisiadcyfradd unffurf yn berthnasol i’r mater hwnond trafodaf eich pwynt am anifeiliaidpedigrî a rhoi ateb ichi. Ailadroddwch ysefyllfa les, a chydnabyddaf, fel y dywedaiswrth Peter Rogers, bod y sefyllfa yn ofnadwyo anodd i nifer o ffermwyr.

Consequential loss is properly decided on anUK basis, as the Prime Minister statedstrongly when he visited Usk.

Penderfynir yn gywir ar golled ganlyniadol arsail y DU, fel y datganodd y Prif Weinidogyn gryf pan ymwelodd â Brynbuga.

Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid (Ieuan WynJones): Diolchaf i chi, Carwyn, am eichymweliadau â Chaernarfon ac Ynys Môn idrafod effeithiau clwy’r traed a’r genau. Yrydych yn ymwybodol o’i effaith ddifrifol aryr ynys, nid yn unig ar y ffermwyr sydd wedicolli anifeiliaid a’r ffermwyr sydd o fewn yrardal lle y mae cyfyngu ar symud, ond hefydar y diwydiant twristiaeth. Clywsoch hynnydros y penwythnos.

The Leader of the Opposition (Ieuan WynJones): I thank you, Carwyn, for your visitsto Caernarfon and Anglesey to discuss theeffects of foot and mouth disease. You areaware of its grave effect on the island, notonly on farmers who have lost stock and thefarmers within the area of restrictedmovement, but also on the tourism industry.You heard that over the weekend.

Cytunaf yn llwyr â’r siaradwyr a ddywedoddfod lles anifeiliaid yn un o’r materion syddangen ei ddatrys yn fuan. Mae’r cynllun difayn mynd rhagddo yn Ynys Môn a chaiff eigwblhau yn fuan, ond mae problemaugwirioneddol o ran lles anifeiliaid i’r

I agree totally with the speakers who havesaid that animal welfare is one of the issuesthat need to be resolved soon. The cull isproceeding in Anglesey and will becompleted soon, but there are real problemswith animal welfare for farmers who are not

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ffermwyr nad ydynt yn rhan o’r cynllun difa.Gobeithiaf y gallwch ymateb i brydergwirioneddol ynghylch hynny.

part of that cull. I hope that you can respondto the real concern about that.

Gwn y byddwch yn dysgu o’r hyn addigwyddodd o ran ystyried lleoliadau megisPenhesgyn, Mona ac Epynt. Mae’n hanfodoly rhoddir gwybodaeth gynnar i’r gymunedleol ynghylch safleoedd posibl, yn hytrach nabod y penderfyniad yn taro’r gymuned felbollt, sydd yn ei harwain i ymateb yn y ffordda wnaed yn y dyddiau diwethaf, nid yn unigyn Epynt ond hefyd yn Ynys Môn.

I know that you will learn lessons from whathas happened regarding considering locationssuch as Penhesgyn, Mona and Epynt. It iscrucial that information regarding possiblelocations is disseminated early on within thelocal community, rather than the decisionhitting the community like a bolt out of theblue, which leads them to respond in the waythat they have done over the past few days,not only in Epynt but also in Anglesey.

Fe’ch atgoffaf, at bwrpas y cofnod, nadCyngor Sir Ynys Môn sydd yn berchen arsafle Penhesgyn, ond cwmni ar y cyd rhwngCyngor Sir Ynys Môn a Chyngor Gwynedd.Penderfyniad y cwmni ydoedd yn wreiddiol ibeidio â chaniatáu defnyddio Penhesgyn, nidpenderfyniad y Cyngor ei hun. Mae’n bwysigcofnodi hynny. Mae’n bwysig i barhau â’rdialog gyda’r cymunedau lleol ac i sicrhaupan ofynnir cwestiynau dilys y rhoddir yrwybodaeth angenrheidiol cyn gynted ag y bomodd.

I remind you, for the purpose of the record,that it is not the Isle of Anglesey CountyCouncil that owns the Penhesgyn site, but ajoint company of Isle of Anglesey CountyCouncil and Gwynedd Council. It was thecompany’s decision originally not to permitthe use of Penhesgyn, not the decision of theCouncil itself. It is important to record that. Itis important to continue the dialogue with thelocal communities and to ensure that whenvalid questions are asked, the necessaryinformation is provided as soon as possible.

Carwyn Jones: Ynghylch eich pwynt am roigwybodaeth gynnar i’r gymuned leolynghylch safleoedd posibl i gladduanifeiliaid, mewn byd perffaith hoffemgysylltu ac ymgynghori, ond nid oes gennymlawer o amser. Yr ydym yn gwneud ein gorauer mwyn sicrhau bod pobl yn deall yffeithiau. Nid yw ymgynghoriad llawn ynymarferol ar hyn o bryd. Derbyniaf ei bod ynbwysig fod pobl yn cael gwybodaeth tra bo’rsefyllfa’n parhau. Dywedais wrth y bobl ymMhenhesgyn a’r bobl sydd yn agos i’r Epynty byddwn yn croesawu sefydlu pwyllgorcyswllt â hwy ac â’r awdurdodau er mwyn ibobl wybod beth sydd yn digwydd. Mae’nhollol naturiol bod pobl eisiau gwybod bethsydd yn digwydd—nid yw’r broses yn ungyfrinachol. Os oes gan bobl gwestiynau,felly, yr wyf yn ddigon hapus iddynt ddewiscynrychiolwyr a all ofyn cwestiynau i’rmilfeddygon ac i Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedder mwyn iddynt gael atebion. Mae’r drws aragor ar gyfer hynny.

Carwyn Jones: With regard to your pointthat early information is disseminated withinthe local community regarding possibleanimal burial sites, in a perfect world wewould want to contact and consult, but we donot have much time. We are doing our best toensure that people understand the facts. Fullconsultation is not practical at the moment. Iaccept the importance of people beinginformed while the situation continues. I toldpeople at Penhesgyn and people close to theEpynt that I would welcome establishing aliaison committee with them and with theauthorities so that people know what is goingon. It is quite natural that people want toknow what is going on—it is not aconfidential process. If people havequestions, therefore, I am more than happyfor them to choose representatives who canask questions of the vets and theEnvironment Agency so that they can haveanswers. The door is open for that.

10:15 a.m.

Cwmni preifat sydd biau safle Penhesgyn. A private company owns the Penhesgyn site.

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Nid oedd problem gan y cwmni ynglŷn âdefnyddio’r safle. Nid oedd y cyngor eisiauinni ddefnyddio’r safle ar y dechrau, wedynnewidiodd ei feddwl. Nid wyf ynbeirniadau’r cyngor am wneud hynny. Yrydym eisiau cydweithio’n agos â’r cyngor.Dyna’r sefyllfa, ac yr ydym yn awr yndefnyddio’r safle, sef prif ddewis Asiantaethyr Amgylchedd.

The company did not have a problem with ususing the site. The council did not want us touse the site at first, then it changed its mind. Ido not criticise the council for doing that. Wewant to co-operate closely with the council.That is the situation, and we are now usingthe site, which was the EnvironmentAgency’s first choice.

Delyth Evans: Oherwydd prinder amser,gofynnaf un cwestiwn penodol ynglŷn â’rsefyllfa ar fynydd Epynt. Mae pryderon ygallai’r haint ddianc o’r lorïau wrth iddyntddringo’r rhiw serth at y safle. Pa sicrwyddallwch chi ei roi na fydd hyn yn digwydd?

Delyth Evans: Due to lack of time, I will askone specific question about the situation onEpynt mountain. There are concerns that thedisease could escape from the lorries as theyclimb the steep hill to the site. Whatassurance can you give that this will nothappen?

Carwyn Jones: Ni fydd unrhyw beth yndianc o’r lorïau. Gallwn fod 100 y cant ynsicr o hynny. Clywyd yr un ddadl panoeddem yn symud cyrff o’r Gaerwen iWidnes. Yr oedd pobl yn dweud bryd hynnyy byddai’r clwyf yn lledu ar hyd yr A55. Niddigwyddodd hynny. Ni all y lorïau adael yffermydd nes bod y milfeddygon yn dweudbod y lori’n ddiogel. Caiff y lorïau eu profi ermwyn sicrhau nad oes unrhyw bosibilrwydd iddim byd ddianc ohonynt. Mae’rmilfeddygon ac Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd,felly, yn hapus bod y lorïau yn hollol ddiogel.

Carwyn Jones: Nothing will escape from thelorries. We can be 100 per cent sure of that.The same argument was heard when we weremoving carcasses from Gaerwen to Widnes.People said then that the disease wouldspread along the A55. That did not happen.The lorries cannot leave the farms until thevets say that they are safe. The lorries aretested to ensure that there is no possibility ofanything escaping from them. The vets andthe Environment Agency are happy,therefore, that the lorries are totally safe.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Gofynnais gyfres ogwestiynau i chi ddoe, a chyflwynais yrwybodaeth honno i Gyngor Sir Caerfyrddinac i bobl yng Nghaerfyrddin. Mae gennyf uncwestiwn penodol ynglŷn â’r Epynt. Aallwch roi gwarant inni nad oes unrhywfygythiad i’r ardal sydd yn glir yn SirGaerfyrddin oddi wrth y safle llosgi sydd ofewn 50 llath i’r ffin—sydd yn benderfyniadcwbl anghyfrifol—a’r safle claddu? Dylaibwletin gwybodaeth Asiantaeth yrAmgylchedd fod wedi ei gyhoeddi yrwythnos diwethaf, a dylid fod wediymgynghori. Mae’n warthus nad oesymgynghori. Derbyniaf fod yn rhaid innigladdu a llosgi yn rhywle, ond a allwch roigwarant o hynny i bobl Sir Gaerfyrddin syddyn poeni’n ddybryd am y sefyllfa?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: I asked you a seriesof questions yesterday, and I presented thatinformation to Carmarthenshire CountyCouncil and to people in Carmarthen. I haveone specific question about the Epynt. Canyou give us an assurance that there is nothreat to the clear area in Carmarthenshirefrom the incineration site, which is within 50yards of the border—which is a totallyirresponsible decision—and the burial site?The Environment Agency informationbulletin should have been issued last week,and there should have been consultation. It isappalling that there is no consultation. Iaccept that we must bury and burnsomewhere, but can you give the people ofCarmarthenshire, who are deeply worriedabout the situation, that assurance?

Carwyn Jones: Mae’n hollol naturiol bodpobl yn poeni pan fo hyn yn digwydd.Ynglŷn â’r hyn a ddywedodd Asiantaeth yrAmgylchedd a’r milfeddygon, yr wyf yn

Carwyn Jones: It is totally natural thatpeople worry when this happens. Regardingwhat the Environment Agency and the vetshave said, I am happy that there is no

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hapus nad oes perygl sylweddol i’r clwyfledu i Sir Gâr, nac i ardaloedd eraill. Nod ydifa yw sicrhau bod y clwyf yn cael ei ladd.Pe baem yn lledu’r clwyf wrth fynd â chyrff ilawr i’r Epynt, byddem yn ymladd yn einherbyn ein hunain. Mae Asiantaeth yrAmgylchedd a’r milfeddygon wedi edrych ary safle, ac maent yn hapus nad oes peryglsylweddol o gwbl.

substantial risk of the disease spreading intoCarmarthenshire, or into other areas. The aimof the cull is to ensure that the disease iseradicated. If we were to spread the diseaseas we take carcasses down to the Epynt, wewould be fighting against ourselves. TheEnvironment Agency and the vets havelooked at the site, and they are happy thatthere is no substantial risk at all.

Kirsty Williams: In expressing your regret,which we all share, of the injury to the policeofficer that occurred in the early hours ofSunday morning on Epynt, do you also regretthe deplorable lack of consultation with thewider communities of Llywel, Senny Bridge,Crai and Trecastell? Do you also regret thefailure to find a site for the disposal ofcarcasses from the Montgomeryshire area inMontgomeryshire itself? Do you also regretthe deplorable lack of information that theEnvironment Agency has been able to supplyto date? You mention early information—Iwas contacted by a farmer whose land isapproximately 20 meters from a burning site.He has received no information about theconsequences that this may or may not havefor his stock. When I asked the EnvironmentAgency to provide scientific informationregarding the geology and the hydrology ofthe Epynt site, it was unable to do so. It hadnot conducted any scientific testing—

Kirsty Williams: Wrth fynegi eich bod yngresynu, yr ydym oll yn rhannu hynny,ynglŷn â’r anaf i swyddog yr heddlu addigwyddodd yn ystod oriau cynnar fore Sular yr Epynt, a ydych hefyd yn gresynnu at ydiffyg gwarthus mewn ymgynghori gydachymunedau ehangach Llywel, Pont Senni,Crai a Threcastell? A ydych hefyd yngresynnu’r methiant i ddod o hyd i safle argyfer gwaredu carcasau o ardal SirDrefaldwyn yn Sir Drefaldwyn ei hun? Aydych hefyd yn gresynnu at y diffyggwarthus mewn gwybodaeth a ddarparwydgan Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd hyd yn hyn?Crybwyllwch wybodaeth gynnar—cysylltodd ffermwr â mi yr oedd ei dir tua 20metr o safle llosgi. Ni dderbyniodd unrhywwybodaeth ar yr effaith y gallai neu na allaiei gael ar ei anifeiliaid. Pan ofynnais iAsiantaeth yr Amgylchedd ddarparugwybodaeth wyddonol yn ymwneud âdaeareg a hydroleg safle’r Epynt, ni allaiwneud hynny. Ni chynhaliodd unrhywbrofion gwyddonol—

The Presiding Officer: Order. You are notthe main speaker for the Liberal Democrats. Ihave called Mick Bates, and the other mainspeakers. Please confine yourself to onequestion.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Nid chi yw’r prifsiaradwr ar gyfer y DemocratiaidRhyddfrydol. Galwais ar Mick Bates, a’r prifsiaradwyr eraill. A wnewch chi gyfyngu eichhun i un cwestiwn.

Kirsty Williams: It was basing itsinformation on having looked in the groundand dug a few holes.

Kirsty Williams: Yr oedd ei gwybodaeth ynseiliedig ar edrych yn y ddaear a phaluambell i dwll.

Carwyn Jones: The Environment Agencyhas prepared a full brief. It is not true that itsimply looked in the ground and dug a fewholes. A full geological survey has beenconducted in the area. Therefore, it is fullyaware of the geology of the area. TheEnvironment Agency’s brief will be madeavailable. As I have said many times, wehave looked, and continue to look, at otherareas of Powys. There is a full-time army

Carwyn Jones: Mae Asiantaeth yrAmgylchedd wedi paratoi brîff llawn. Nidyw’n wir eu bod ond wedi edrych yn yddaear a phalu ambell i dwll. Cynhaliwydarolwg daearegol llawn yn yr ardal. Felly,mae’n llwyr ymwybodol o ddaeareg yr ardal.Bydd brîff Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd argael. Fel y dywedais sawl gwaith, rydymwedi edrych, ac yn parhau i edrych, arardaloedd eraill ym Mhowys. Mae swyddog

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officer who assesses other possible burialareas. He has not yet found an other area. Imet Kirsty at the site on Saturday. She hasconducted herself properly in representingher constituents and has a perfect right to dothat. However, it is extremely unhelpful forthe local Member of Parliament to tellresidents at the site at Epynt that he andPowys County Council will find analternative site by Monday. We have notheard anything since. That is not helpful.

llawn amser o’r fyddin sydd yn asesuardaloedd claddu posibl eraill. Nid yw wedicanfod ardal arall eto. Cyfarfûm â Kirsty ar ysafle ar ddydd Sadwrn. Bu’n ymddwyn ynbriodol wrth gynrychioli ei hetholwyr ac maeganddi berffaith hawl i wneud hynny. Foddbynnag, mae’n hollol ddi-fudd i’r AelodSeneddol lleol ddweud wrth drigolion ar ysafle ar fynydd Epynt y bydd ef a ChyngorSir Powys yn darganfod safle arall erbyndydd Llun. Ni chlywsom unrhyw beth ershynny. Nid yw hynny’n ddefnyddiol.

Nick Bourne: Like Kirsty Williams andRhodri Glyn Thomas, I am concerned aboutthe lack of consultation on the Epynt site. Iknow that it is an infected area in the sensethat Powys is an infected area. However, Ihope that the Minister will clarify that thereare no cases in the immediate vicinity ofEpynt. That is what has caused the greatestconcern. Although the site is less than a milefrom the Carmarthenshire border, there wasno consultation with officers or anyone elsein that county. This is an object lesson in hownot to identify a site. Will the Minister alsocomment on the fact that Southerndown golfclub, in his constituency, is re-opening,against the wishes of many people whosuspect it to be a danger?

Nick Bourne: Fel Kirsty Williams a RhodriGlyn Thomas, yr wyf yn bryderus ynglŷn â’rdiffyg ymgynghori a fu ar safle’r Epynt. Gwnei bod yn ardal heintus yn yr ystyr bod Powysyn ardal heintus. Fodd bynnag, gobeithiaf ybydd y Gweinidog yn egluro na cheir unrhywachosion yng nghyffiniau’r Epynt. Dyma’rhyn a achosodd y pryder mwyaf. Er bod ysafle yn llai na milltir o ffin Sir Gaerfyrddin,nid ymgynghorwyd â swyddogion neu agunrhyw un arall yn y sir honno. Mae hon ynenghraifft dda o sut i beidio â nodi safle. Awnaiff y Gweinidog wneud sylwadau hefydar y ffaith bod clwb golff Southerndown, ynei etholaeth, yn ailagor, yn erbyn dymuniadaullawer o bobl sydd yn amau ei fod ynberyglus?

Carwyn Jones: I declare an interest as myfather is a member of Southerndown golfclub. I have held discussions with the golfclub. I firmly believe that, in the face ofveterinary advice, while there is livestock onthe course, it should not be opened. I havesaid that all along. If veterinary advice is thatthe course should remain closed, so be it. Isay that with full expectation of domesticstrife when I return home tonight.

Carwyn Jones: Datganaf ddiddordeb gan fodfy nhad yn aelod o glwb golff Southerndown.Cynhaliais drafodaethau gyda’r clwb golff.Credaf yn gryf, yn wyneb cyngormilfeddygol, tra bod da byw ar y cwrs, naddylid ei agor. Dywedais hynny o’r cychwyn.Os dywed cyngor milfeddygol na ddylid agory cwrs, bydded felly. Dywedaf hynny ganlawn ddisgwyl anghydfod teuluol panddychwelaf adref heno.

It is not helpful that people such as Nick tellprotesters at the Epynt site that this is a LibLab conspiracy.

Nid yw’n ddefnyddiol bod pobl fel Nick yndweud wrth y protestwyr ar safle’r Epynt bodhwn yn gynllwyn rhwng y DemocratiaidRhyddfrydol a’r Blaid Lafur.

Nick Bourne: I did not say that. Nick Bourne: Ni ddywedais hynny.

Carwyn Jones: I am only quoting what localpeople have told me. [CONSERVATIVEASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Answer thequestion.’]

Carwyn Jones: Dim ond dyfynnu’r hyn addywedodd y bobl leol wrthyf yr wyf.[AELODAU CEIDWADOL O’R CYNULLIAD:‘Atebwch y cwestiwn.’]

The Presiding Officer: Order. The Minister Y Llywydd: Trefn. Mae’r Gweinidog yn ateb

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is answering the question asked by theLeader of the Welsh Conservatives.

y cwestiwn a ofynnwyd gan ArweinyddCeidwadwyr Cymru.

Carwyn Jones: I know that there is a generalelection pending, but it is important that allMembers are responsible.

Carwyn Jones: Gwn fod etholiad cyffredinolar y gorwel, ond mae’n bwysig bod yr hollAelodau’n ymddwyn yn gyfrifol.

Datganiad ar Asesiadau Fferm Gyfan o Indrawn a Addaswyd yn EnetigStatement on Farm-scale Evaluation of Genetically Modified Maize

The Minister for Rural Affairs (CarwynJones): Late on Tuesday, 3 April, theDepartment of the Environment, Transportand the Regions published the locations ofthe sites in England and Wales wheregenetically modified maize is set to beplanted this spring as part of the programmeof farm-scale evaluations of geneticallymodified crops. In light of the Assembly’sstated policy of opposition to GM trialling inWales, I was disappointed to note that threeof the proposed sites are in Wales; one inSealand in Flintshire and the other two inMathry in Pembrokeshire. Details of these,together with six-figure grid references for all28 sites, are available on the DETR’swebsite. The crop to be grown has marketingconsent from the European Union under partC of European Directive 90/220. The UnitedKingdom Government, via DETR, will nowwrite to parish and community councils inwhose areas the sites are located to explainthe nature and the purpose of the farm-scaleevaluations.

Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig(Carwyn Jones): Yn hwyr ddydd Mawrth, 3Ebrill, cyhoeddodd Adran yr Amgylchedd,Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau leoliadau’rsafleoedd yng Nghymru a Lloegr lle ybwriedir plannu indrawn a addaswyd ynenetig y gwanwyn hwn fel rhan o raglenasesiadau fferm gyfan o gnydau a addaswydyn enetig. O ystyried y polisi gwrthwynebu anodwyd gan y Cynulliad i dreialu cnydauwedi’u haddasu’n enetig yng Nghymru, yroeddwn yn siomedig i nodi bod tri o’rsafleoedd arfaethedig yng Nghymru; un ynSealand yn Sir y Fflint a’r ddau arall ymMathry yn Sir Benfro. Mae manylion y rhain,a chyfeiriadau grid chwe ffigur ar gyfer pobun o’r 28 safle, ar gael ar wefan Adran yrAmgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau.Mae gan y cnwd y bwriedir ei dyfu ganiatâdmarchnata yr Undeb Ewropeaidd o dan ran CCyfarwyddeb Ewropeaidd 90/220. ByddLlywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig, drwy Adranyr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’rRhanbarthau, yn awr yn ysgrifennu atgynghorau plwyf a chynghorau cymuned ynyr ardaloedd lle lleolir y safleoedd i esbonionatur a phwrpas asesiadau fferm gyfan.

DETR is the lead UK department for theprogramme of farm-scale evaluations. It isresponsible for implementing the provisionsof the relevant European directives in theUK. That being the case, and knowing thatthe part C trial announcement was imminent,I wrote to Michael Meacher MP on 23 Marchsetting out my concerns about the potentialimpact of the GM trials on non-GMproduction—on organic production inparticular—in Wales. I stated that, shouldtrial sites in Wales be announced, I would askthe Advisory Committee on Releases to theEnvironment to conduct a full scientificassessment before planting went ahead. I alsostated that, if my concerns were not satisfied,

Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’rRhanbarthau yw prif adran y DU ar gyfer yrhaglen asesiadau fferm gyfan. Mae’ngyfrifol am weithredu darpariaethau’rcyfarwyddebau Ewropeaidd perthnasol yn yDU. O ystyried hynny, a chan wybod fod ydatganiad treial rhan C yn yr arfaeth,ysgrifennais at Michael Meacher AS ar 23Mawrth yn nodi fy mhryderon am effaithbosibl y treialon cnydau wedi’u haddasu’nenetig ar gynhyrchu cnydau heb eu haddasu’nenetig—ar gynhyrchu organig yn arbennig—yng Nghymru. Nodais, pe cyhoeddirsafleoedd treialon yng Nghymru, y byddwnyn gofyn i’r Pwyllgor Ymgynghorol arOllyngiadau i’r Amgylchedd gynnal asesiad

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I would consider whether it would beappropriate to exercise my powers underSection 110 of the Environmental ProtectionAct 1990 to issue an environmentalprohibition notice. I have also expressedthese concerns to the industry body,SCIMAC—the Supply Chain Initiative onModified Agricultural Crops. In response tothe announcement of the trial sites, myofficials have asked ACRE—the AdvisoryCommittee on Releases to theEnvironment—to undertake a full scientificassessment of these sites prior to plantinggoing ahead.

gwyddonol llawn cyn i’r plannu fyndrhagddo. Nodais hefyd, oni fodlonir fymhryderon, y byddwn yn ystyried pa un afyddai’n briodol defnyddio fy mhwerau o danAdran 110 Deddf Diogelu’r Amgylchedd1990 i gyhoeddi hysbysiad gwaharddiadamgylcheddol. Yr wyf hefyd wedi lleisio’rpryderon hyn i gorff y diwydiant,SCIMAC—sef Menter y Gadwyn Gyflenwiar Gnydau Amaethyddol wedi’u Haddasu.Mewn ymateb i’r cyhoeddiad am y safleoeddtreialu, gofynnodd fy swyddogion i’rPwyllgor Ymgynghorol ar Ollyngiadau i’rAmgylchedd gynnal asesiad gwyddonolllawn o’r safleoedd hyn cyn i’r plannu fyndrhagddo.

10:25 a.m.

Richard Edwards: Your statement has pre-empted my urgent question on the matter asthe local Assembly Member for Mathry. Ialso welcome the actions that you propose.Do you agree that there are two crucial broadissues in this sorry mess? The first is theenvironmental and health issue, and I speakas chair of the Environment, Planning andTransport Committee as well as the localAssembly Member. These trials are due tostart before the end of the month forgoodness sake. What possible time is therefor a proper environmental impactassessment? I welcome your commitment toensure that that will happen. The sites are onthe doorstep of the Pembrokeshire NationalPark, which is a precious haven for wildlifeand biodiversity. The sites are also in closeproximity to organic farms. You mentionedyour concern about the dangers of cross-pollination. I hear the UK EnvironmentMinister talking about a green, clean organicfuture, except in north Pembrokeshire itseems. These trials will blight organicfarming in Pembrokeshire. Given the crisis inagriculture, organic farming may be the onlyviable future for many people. Do you notthink that there is something obscene aboutGovernment scientists, in the middle of a footand mouth disease epidemic, parading aboutnorth Pembrokeshire for the benefit of agreedy, multi-national corporation to thedetriment of the local people, the localeconomy and the local environment?

Richard Edwards: Mae eich datganiad wedirhagflaenu fy nghwestiwn brys ar y mater felAelod lleol o’r Cynulliad dros Mathry.Croesawaf innau hefyd y camau a gynigiwch.A gytunwch fod dau fater cyffredinol hollbwysig yn perthyn i’r achos truenus hwn? Ycyntaf yw’r mater amgylcheddol ac iechyd, asiaradaf fel cadeirydd Pwyllgor yrAmgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth ynogystal ag Aelod lleol o’r Cynulliad.Bwriedir i’r treialon hyn ddechrau cyndiwedd y mis er mwyn dyn. O ble y daw’ramser ar gyfer asesiad priodol o effaithamgylcheddol? Croesawaf eich ymrwymiad isicrhau y bydd hynny’n digwydd. Mae’rsafleoedd ar garreg drws Parc CenedlaetholSir Benfro, sydd yn noddfa werthfawr ifywyd gwyllt a bioamrywiaeth. Mae’rsafleoedd hefyd yn agos at ffermydd organig.Soniasoch am eich pryder ynghylch peryglontraws-beillio. Clywaf Weinidog dros yrAmgylchedd y DU yn sôn am ddyfodolgwyrdd, glân, organig ac eithrio gogledd SirBenfro yn ôl pob golwg. Bydd y treialon hynyn difetha ffermio organig yn Sir Benfro. Oystyried yr argyfwng mewn amaeth, efallaimai ffermio organig fydd yr unig ddyfodoldilys i lawer o bobl. Oni chredwch bodrhywbeth anweddus am wyddonwyr yLlywodraeth sydd, yng nghanol epidemigclwy’r traed a’r genau, yn gorymdeithio drwyogledd Sir Benfro er budd corfforaeth farus,aml-wladol ar draul y bobl leol, yr economileol a’r amgylchedd lleol?

Do you agree that the second broad issue is a A gytunwch fod yr ail fater cyffredinol yn

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constitutional issue? Who does the DETRthink it is acting in such an arrogant andcontemptuous way? Has it forgotten that theAssembly has a GM free policy? Does it evencare? Or is it just sticking two fingers up atus? Is the concordat we have with it worththe paper on which it is written? I am notsurprised that the Tories are silent at present,because the landowner in question is the ex-loony right Tory MP, Tony Marlow. TheDETR is behaving insensitively,irresponsibly and contemptuously. My officehas been deluged with protests fromconstituents, and I fully sympathise withthem. The Assembly’s credibility is on theline. I ask you and the First Minister to get agrip. In addition to the proposals that youindicated, perhaps the Joint MinisterialCommittee could be an appropriate avenuefor resolving disputes between the UKGovernment and the devolvedadministrations. This is just not on. We mustsort the DETR out, and we need to do sourgently.

fater cyfansoddiadol? Pwy yw Adran yrAmgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau iweithredu mewn modd mor drahaus adirmygus? A yw wedi anghofio bod gan yCynulliad bolisi o sicrhau bod Cymru’nrhydd o gnydau wedi’u haddasu’n enetig? Aoes ots ganddo hyd yn oed? Neu ai dim ondcodi dau fys arnom y mae? A oes unrhywwerth i’r concordat sydd gennym ag ef? Nisynnaf fod y Torïaid yn dawel ar hyn o bryd,gan mai’r tirfeddiannwr dan sylw yw’r cynAS Torïaidd ar y dde eithafol, Tony Marlow.Mae Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’rRhanbarthau yn ymddwyn yn ansensitif, ynanghyfrifol ac yn ddirmygus. Derbyniodd fyswyddfa lif o brotestiadau gan etholwyr, achydymdeimlaf yn llawn â hwy. Maehygrededd y Cynulliad yn y fantol. Gofynnafichi a Phrif Weinidog Cymru fynd i’r afaelâ’r mater. Yn ogystal â’r cynigion a nodwydgennych, efallai y byddai Cydbwyllgor yGweinidogion yn gyfrwng priodol i ddatrysanghydfodau rhwng Llywodraeth y DU a’rgweinyddiaethau a ddatganolwyd. Nid ywhyn yn dderbyniol. Rhaid inni roi Adran yrAmgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthauyn ei lle, a rhaid inni wneud hynny ar frys.

Carwyn Jones: You are right to point out,Richard, that the scheduled start of thetrials—as I understand it—is at the end of themonth. However, it is important—in myview, and in the Assembly’s view—that thefull scientific evaluation has priority. If that isthe case and if the planting time has to be putback, then so be it. We understand that wehave legal powers in this matter, and we areinvestigating whether they should be used. Atpresent, we are asking for a full scientificassessment. If the answer is no, we will takematters further.

Carwyn Jones: Yr ydych yn iawn, Richard, inodi mai ar ddiwedd y mis—fel y deallaf i—y bwriedir cychwyn y treialon. Fodd bynnag,mae’n bwysig—yn fy marn i, ac ym marn yCynulliad—y rhoddir blaenoriaeth i’r asesiadgwyddonol llawn. Os mai dyna’r achos ac osoes rhaid gohirio’r amser plannu, dyna fyddrhaid ei wneud. Deallwn fod gennym bweraucyfreithiol yn y mater hwn, ac yr ydym ynarchwilio a ddylid eu defnyddio. Ar hyn obryd, gofynnwn am asesiad gwyddonolllawn. Os mai na yw’r ateb, byddwn yn myndâ materion ymhellach.

With regard to your point about organicproduction, around 8,000 hectares of land isin organic production in Pembrokeshire andCarmarthenshire. Since learning that thesesites had been identified—which was thebeginning of the week—we have consideredthe situation. We have detailed site locationsand we have identified 10 holdings inconversion or in full organic productionwithin six miles of the trial sites. That issignificant because six miles is the distancewithin which the Soil Association will makerandom checks to ensure organic production

O ran eich pwynt am gynhyrchu organig,defnyddir tua 8,000 hectar o dir ar gyfercynhyrchu’n organig yn Sir Benfro a SirGaerfyrddin. Ers dysgu bod y safleoedd hynwedi’u nodi—ar ddechrau’r wythnos—yrydym wedi ystyried y sefyllfa. Mae gennymleoliadau safle manwl ac yr ydym wedi nodi10 o ddaliadau sydd yn cael eu trawsnewidneu sydd â chynhyrchiant organig llawn ofewn chwe milltir o safleoedd y treialon. Maehynny’n arwyddocaol oherwydd o fewnpellter o chwe milltir y bydd y GymdeithasBridd yn gwneud archwiliadau ar hap i

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is not contaminated with GM organisms,which would be of concern.

sicrhau na chaiff cynhyrchu organig eiddifwyno ag organebau wedi’u haddasu’nenetig, a fyddai o bryder.

Nick Bourne: Richard Edwards covered thepolicy side well. It was a cogent argument,but he unfortunately spoilt it with a wildrhetorical, pre-election flourish. Theregrettable element here is the framework. Itis a framework that is allowing twofarmers—not just one, in any event—to go infor these GM trials. I will concentrate on theconstitutional aspect. The Assembly hasexpressed its view on the policy issue. In fact,it was a Welsh Conservative motion thatinitially proposed a GM free Wales, and I amproud of that. However, on the constitutionalissue, Minister, in a letter to the chairman ofthe Agriculture and Rural Affairs Committee,Glyn Davies, you stated that you wereconcerned about aspects of the farm scaleevaluations and that you had intended to raisethem at a meeting scheduled for 22 March.What did you know on 22 March? Did youknow of the likelihood of trials in Wales andwhy was that information not shared at anearlier stage? We know that the First Ministeronly learned of this on Tuesday afternoonbecause he raised it at the European AffairsCommittee yesterday. We know that theDeputy First Minister and Minister forEconomic Development—although,presumably, he did know about ityesterday—did not raise the issue withMichael Meacher MP, although he met himyesterday. That is staggering. I know that theDeputy First Minister and Minister forEconomic Development is an important man,but you would have thought that it wouldhave registered on his radar that it was animportant issue to raise with MichaelMeacher yesterday. It is regrettable that thatdid not happen.

Nick Bourne: Cwmpasodd Richard Edwardsyr ochr bolisi yn dda. Yr oedd yn ddadlargyhoeddiadol, ond yn anffodus cafodd eiddifetha ganddo gyda thro rhethregol, cyn-etholiad. Yr elfen anffodus yma yw’rfframwaith. Mae’n fframwaith sydd yncaniatáu i ddau ffermwr—nid dim ond un,mewn unrhyw achos—i wirfoddoli ar gyfer ytreialon cnydau wedi’u haddasu’n enetig hyn.Byddaf yn canolbwyntio ar yr agweddgyfansoddiadol. Mae’r Cynulliad wedi lleisioei farn ar y mater polisi. Yn wir, cynnig ganGeidwadwyr Cymru a gynigiodd Cymru syddyn rhydd o gnydau wedi’u haddasu’n enetigyn y lle cyntaf, ac yr wyf yn falch o hynny.Fodd bynnag, ar y mater cyfansoddiadol,Weinidog, mewn llythyr i gadeirydd yPwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a MaterionGwledig, Glyn Davies, nodasoch eich bod ynpryderu am agweddau ar yr asesiadau ffermgyfan a’ch bod wedi bwriadu eu codi mewncyfarfod a drefnwyd ar gyfer 22 Mawrth.Beth oeddech chi’n ei wybod ar 22 Mawrth?A wyddech am debygolrwydd cynnal treialonyng Nghymru a pham na rannwyd yrwybodaeth honno yn gynharach? Gwyddommai dim ond brynhawn ddydd Mawrth ydaeth Prif Weinidog Cymru i wybod am hynoherwydd cododd y mater yn y PwyllgorMaterion Ewropeaidd ddoe. Gwyddom nachododd y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’rGweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd ymater—er, yn ôl pob tebyg, na wyddaiamdano ddoe—gyda Michael Meacher AS, eriddo gwrdd ag ef ddoe. Mae hynny’nanhygoel. Gwn fod y Dirprwy Brif Weinidoga’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaiddyn ŵr pwysig, ond byddech wedi meddwl ybyddai ei radar wedi nodi ei fod yn faterpwysig i’w godi â Michael Meacher ddoe.Mae’n drueni na ddigwyddodd hynny.

Jenny Randerson: It is just jealousy. Jenny Randerson: Dim ond cenfigen ywhynny.

Nick Bourne: I would have raised it withMichael Meacher had I been there.

Nick Bourne: Byddwn i wedi ei godi âMichael Meacher pe byddwn wedi bod yno.

The Presiding Officer: Order. The Leader ofthe Welsh Conservatives is asking anintelligent question in an intelligent way, and

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Mae ArweinwyrCeidwadwyr Cymru’n gofyn cwestiwndeallus mewn ffordd ddeallus, a dylid

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he should be allowed to continue. caniatáu iddo barhau.

Nick Bourne: I am grateful for the PresidingOfficer’s impartiality. I will move on to theconcordats, which concern many people.Perhaps they do not concern theadministration, but they obviously, and quiterightly, concern ordinary Labour Members,even if they do not concern ordinary LiberalDemocrat Members. The concordats are notworth the paper on which they are written.Some of them have not even been written onpaper yet. However, what does the concordatwith the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheriesand Food say about this? We have been herebefore when Christine Gwyther was theSecretary for Agriculture and RuralDevelopment and we were ignored then.What is the process for involving us and whyare we not involved now? It raises seriousissues. When did you know about thelikelihood of these trials, Minister, and whydid you not raise these issues on 22 March?You clearly knew something then. What areyou doing to ensure that this sorry state ofaffairs does not happen again?

Nick Bourne: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar amamhleidioldeb y Llywydd. Symudaf ymlaeni’r concordatau, sydd o bryder i lawer o bobl.Efallai nad ydynt o bryder i’r weinyddiaeth,ond mae’n amlwg, a hynny’n ddigon teg, eubod o bryder i’r Aelodau Llafur cyffredin,hyd yn oed os nad ydynt o bryder i’r AelodauDemocrataidd Rhyddfrydol cyffredin. Nidoes unrhyw werth i’r concordatau hyn. Nidyw rhai ohonynt hyd yn oed wedi’uhysgrifennu ar bapur eto. Fodd bynnag, bethmae’r concordat gyda’r WeinyddiaethAmaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd yn eiddweud am hyn? Buom yma o’r blaen panoedd Christine Gwyther yn Ysgrifennydddros Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig achawsom ein hanwybyddu bryd hynny. Bethyw’r broses ar gyfer ein cynnwys ni a phamna chawn ein cynnwys yn awr? Mae’n codimaterion difrifol. Pa bryd oeddech yngwybod am debygolrwydd y treialon hyn,Weinidog, a pham na chodasoch y materionhyn ar 22 Mawrth? Mae’n amlwg eich bod yngwybod rhywbeth bryd hynny. Beth ydychchi’n ei wneud i sicrhau na fydd y llanastrhyn yn digwydd eto?

Carwyn Jones: First, let us get one issueclear and deal with this leaked letter that hascaused a great deal of amusement. It wasaddressed to all members of the GM strategygroup. A number of people received thatletter and if people had wanted a copy, allthey had to do was ring my office. GlynDavies was a recipient because he is part ofthe GM strategy group. The letter stated that Iwas concerned about some aspects of thefarm-scale evaluations, which I wanted tomention to the group. The exact location ofthe sites was communicated to us on Mondayevening on an embargoed basis.[Interruption.]

Carwyn Jones: I ddechrau, gadewch inniegluro un mater a mynd i’r afael â’r llythyrhwn a ddatgelwyd sydd wedi creu llawer oddifyrrwch. Fe’i cyfeiriwyd at holl aelodau’rgrŵp strategaeth cnydau wedi’u haddasu’nenetig. Derbyniodd nifer o bobl y llythyrhwnnw ac os oedd pobl am gael copi, yr unigbeth yr oedd yn rhaid iddynt ei wneud oeddffonio fy swyddfa. Derbyniodd Glyn Daviesgopi oherwydd ei fod yn rhan o’r grŵpstrategaeth cnydau wedi’u haddasu’n enetig.Nododd y llythyr fy mod yn poeni am raiagweddau ar yr asesiadau fferm gyfan, yroeddwn am sôn amdanynt wrth y grŵp.Cyfathrebwyd union leoliad y safleoeddwrthym nos Lun dan embargo. [Torri ardraws.]

The Presiding Officer: Order. The Leader ofthe Welsh Conservatives has had anopportunity to ask his intelligent question. Hecannot ask another from a sedentary position.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Cafodd ArweinyddCeidwadwyr Cymru gyfle i ofyn ei gwestiwndeallus. Ni all ofyn cwestiwn arall ar eieistedd.

Carwyn Jones: If you are asking when didwe know that sites in Wales would beconsidered, it was 1998. The three-year farm-

Carwyn Jones: Os oeddech yn gofyn pabryd yr oeddem yn gwybod y byddai’rsafleoedd yng Nghymru yn cael eu hystyried,

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scale evaluation timetable was announced in1998. Legally, all sites in the UK can beconsidered. Let me tell you what was done.On 18 January, I met with Michael Meacherand explained to him the NationalAssembly’s concerns. On 22 January, Iattended, together with Paul Murphy, thejoint cabinet committee to consider the issueof GM crops. We strongly put forward theviews of the National Assembly. On 1February, I met with SCIMAC, which is theindustry body responsible for proposing sites.It did not want to meet with us if the meetingwas made public. In view of that fact, I metwith SCIMAC. The meeting must have lastedfor three hours. We put forward theAssembly’s political position, and also,importantly, the scientific argument that nosite in Wales should be used. SCIMACwould not give an undertaking that sites inWales would not be used. It does not take agenius to work out that if somebody fails topromise not to do something, it is likely thatthey will do it, even though we had noconfirmation at that stage that sites in Waleswere to be considered.

yn 1998 oedd hynny. Cyhoeddwyd yr asesiadfferm gyfan tair blynedd yn 1998. Yngyfreithiol, gellir ystyried pob safle yn y DU.Gadewch imi ddweud wrthych beth awnaethpwyd. Ar 18 Ionawr, cyfarfûm âMichael Meacher ac esboniais bryderon yCynulliad Cenedlaethol iddo. Ar 22 Ionawr,ynghyd â Paul Murphy, mynychaisgydbwyllgor y cabinet i ystyried cnydau aaddaswyd yn enetig. Lleisiwyd barn yCynulliad Cenedlaethol gennym yn gryf. Ar1 Chwefror, cyfarfûm â SCIMAC, sef y corffdiwydiannol sydd yn gyfrifol am gynnigsafleoedd. Nid oedd am gwrdd â ni perhyddhawyd gwybodaeth am y cyfarfod i’rcyhoedd. O ystyried y ffaith honno, cyfarfûmâ SCIMAC. Rhaid bod y cyfarfod wedi paraam dair awr. Cyflwynasom sefyllfawleidyddol y Cynulliad, a hefyd, ynbwysicach, y trefniant gwyddonol na ddyliddefnyddio unrhyw safle yng Nghymru. Nidoedd SCIMAC yn fodlon addo na fyddaisafleoedd yng Nghymru’n cael eu defnyddio.Nid oes angen bod yn athrylith i dybio os naall rhywun addo peidio â gwneud rhywbeth,mae’n debygol y byddant yn ei wneud, er nadoedd gennym unrhyw gadarnhad bryd hynnyy câi safleoedd yng Nghymru eu hystyried.

10:35 a.m.

When it became known to us that theannouncement was imminent, I sent twoletters on 23 March, one to SCIMAC and theother to Michael Meacher at the Departmentof the Environment, Transport and theRegions. I made it clear in those letters whatactions I would take if sites were announcedin Wales. The decision to locate sites inWales was taken at the beginning of thisweek. If I had known on 22 March where thesites were to be, I would obviously have hadan effective crystal ball.

Pan ddaeth yn hysbys inni fod y cyhoeddiadyn yr arfaeth, anfonais ddau lythyr ar 23Mawrth, un at SCIMAC a’r llall at MichaelMeacher yn Adran yr Amgylchedd,Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau. Eglurais yn yllythyrau hynny pa gamau y byddwn yn eucymryd pe bai safleoedd yn cael eu cyhoeddiyng Nghymru. Gwnaethpwyd y penderfyniadi leoli safleoedd yng Nghymru ddechrau’rwythnos hon. Pe bawn yn gwybod ar 22Mawrth ble byddai’r safleoedd, byddwn ynbroffwyd.

That action taken, we were informed onMonday on an embargoed basis that therewere three sites selected in Wales. We wereinformed that the information would be madepublic on Wednesday but, nevertheless, itwent out on Tuesday evening. As we nowknow that there are three sites in Wales, wehave taken the action that I said we would,namely, I have written to ACRE, calling on itto conduct a full scientific evaluation of thesites and to look at the robustness of the

Wedi cymryd y cam hwnnw, cawsom einhysbysu ddydd Llun o dan embargo bod trisafle wedi’u dewis yng Nghymru. Cawsomein hysbysu y câi’r wybodaeth ei rhyddhaui’r cyhoedd ddydd Mercher ond, serch hynny,fe’i rhyddhawyd nos Fawrth. Gan ygwyddom bellach fod tri safle yng Nghymru,yr ydym wedi cymryd y camau y dywedais ybyddem yn eu cymryd, sef, ysgrifennu at yPwyllgor Ymgynghorol ar Ollyngiadau i’rAmgylchedd, gan alw arno i gynnal asesiad

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separation distances and the potential forcontamination of neighbouring crops. Thatscientific assessment must take place beforeplanting is allowed. I await ACRE’s replyand, depending on what that reply is, I willfurther consider using the powers available tothe Assembly.

gwyddonol llawn o’r safleoedd ac edrych argryfder y pellteroedd gwahanu a’r potensialar gyfer difwyno cnydau cyfagos. Rhaidcynnal yr asesiad gwyddonol hwnnw cyn ycaniateir plannu. Arhosaf am ateb gan yPwyllgor Ymgynghorol ar Ollyngiadau i’rAmgylchedd a, chan ddibynnu ar yr atebhwnnw, byddaf yn ystyried ymhellachddefnyddio’r pwerau sydd ar gael i’rCynulliad.

Christine Gwyther: I will concentrate on thelocal angle. All in all, Pembrokeshire has hada funny old decade. Restructuring of the oilindustry has meant massive job losses. We allwelcomed the peace dividend, but it alsomeant massive job losses at Ministry ofDefence establishments acrossPembrokeshire. None of us will ever forgetthe environmental and economicconsequences of the Sea Empress disaster,and I am sure that I need not tell youanything about the foot and mouth diseasecrisis. Throughout these events inPembrokeshire, tourism has dragged the localeconomy through and bailed out the countytime and again. Tourism and thePembrokeshire Coast National Park havenow had another serious kick in the guts as aresult of the threat of GM crops.

Christine Gwyther: Canolbwyntiaf ar yrongl leol. At ei gilydd, mae Sir Benfro wedicael degawd od iawn. Arweinioddailstrwythuro’r diwydiant olew at golli llawero swyddi. Croesawodd pawb y difidendheddwch, ond yr oedd hefyd yn golygu ybyddai llawer o swyddi’n cael eu colli ynsefydliadau’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffynledled Sir Benfro. Nid anghofia’r un ohonomoblygiadau amgylcheddol ac economaiddtrychineb y Sea Empress, ac yr wyf yn siŵrnad oes angen imi ddweud unrhyw bethwrthych am yr argyfwng clwy’r traed a’rgenau. Drwy gydol y digwyddiadau hyn ynSir Benfro, mae twristiaeth wedi llusgo’reconomi leol trwyddynt ac wedi achub y sirdro ar ôl tro. Mae twristiaeth a PharcCenedlaethol Arfordir Sir Benfro wedi caelergyd drom arall o ganlyniad i fygythiadcnydau a addaswyd yn enetig.

The Presiding Officer: Order. You are thesecond person from the Labour group toquestion the Minister. Please limit yourself toone question.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Chi yw’r ail berson o’rgrŵp Llafur i holi’r Gweinidog. Dylechgyfyngu eich hun i un cwestiwn.

Christine Gwyther: Will you join me,Minister, in my utter condemnation of thisproposal, and will you do your utmost to stopit from going ahead? Will you make thefindings of the scientific assessment publicand totally transparent, because that is theonly way that we will restore publicconfidence? Will you ensure that a businessassessment is carried out, in conjunction withyour colleague, Mike German, of what thisthreat might mean to a future tourismrenaissance in west Wales?

Christine Gwyther: A ymunwch â mi,Weinidog, wrth gondemnio’r gynnig hwn ynllwyr, ac a wnewch eich gorau i’w atal rhagmynd yn ei flaen? A wnewch ryddhaucanfyddiadau’r asesiad gwyddonol i’rcyhoedd a sicrhau eu bod yn hollol dryloyw,oherwydd dyna’r unig ffordd inni adfer hydery cyhoedd? A fyddwch yn sicrhau y cynhelirasesiad busnes, ar y cyd â’ch cyd-Aelod,Mike German, o’r hyn y gallai’r bygythiadhwn ei olygu i adfywiad twristiaeth yngngorllewin Cymru yn y dyfodol?

Carwyn Jones: I do not know at presentwhat the legal status of the scientificassessment will be. If there is no reason for itnot to be made public, then it will be made

Carwyn Jones: Ar hyn o bryd ni wn bethfydd statws cyfreithiol yr asesiad gwyddonol.Os nad oes rheswm iddo beidio â chael eiryddhau i’r cyhoedd, yna gwneir hynny.

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public. I will have to ensure that the legalposition is checked thoroughly. The NationalAssembly made its view clear during lastyear’s debate on this issue. It is my duty topush the National Assembly’s policy to itslimits, which I believe I have done. In doingso, I have met with Ministers from DETRand industry bodies and, on 23 March, Iinformed DETR and SCIMAC what ourposition would be if sites were selected inWales. Now that we know that sites havebeen selected in Wales, we are pursuing thepolicy that we said we would and areawaiting ACRE’s response.

Bydd rhaid imi sicrhau yr archwilir y sefyllfagyfreithiol yn drylwyr. Lleisiodd y CynulliadCenedlaethol ei farn yn glir yn ystodtrafodaeth y llynedd ar y mater hwn. Fynyletswydd i yw gwthio polisi’r CynulliadCenedlaethol i’r eithaf, a chredaf imi wneudhynny. Wrth wneud hynny, cyfarfûm âGweinidogion o Adran yr Amgylchedd,Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau a chyrffdiwydiannol ac, ar 23 Mawrth, hysbysaisAdran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’rRhanbarthau a SCIMAC o beth fyddai einsefyllfa os dewiswyd safleoedd yngNghymru. Gan y gwyddom bellach fodsafleoedd wedi’u dewis yng Nghymru, yrydym yn dilyn y polisi y dywedasom ybyddem yn ei ddilyn ac yn aros am ymateb yPwyllgor Ymgynghorol ar Ollyngiadau i’rAmgylchedd.

Helen Mary Jones: Christine and Richardhave outlined the issue clearly and, therefore,nothing further needs to be said on that. Asregard the process and implications of this, Iam still not clear about when your officialsknew that sites in Wales were beingconsidered. We know when they knew thatthey were selected, but we do not know whenthey knew that they were being consideredfor selection. When did you know that? Didyou know about it as soon as your officialsdid? Why, when you knew that this wasunder consideration, did you not call anemergency meeting of the GM strategygroup? We have tried to maintain a cross-party position on this, but the currentsituation has now brought that into question.Do you agree that this decision shows acomplete contempt for Welsh democracy onthe part of the Department of theEnvironment, Transport and the Regions?Will you join me and Plaid Cymru—TheParty of Wales in demanding an apologyfrom John Prescott for that disgracefulcontempt?

Helen Mary Jones: Mae Christine a Richardwedi amlinellu’r mater yn glir ac, felly, nidoes angen dweud unrhyw beth pellachynghylch hynny. O ran y broses agoblygiadau hyn, nid wyf yn glir o hyd pabryd y gwyddai eich swyddogion fodsafleoedd yng Nghymru’n cael eu hystyried.Gwyddom pa bryd y gwyddant iddynt gael eudewis, ond ni wyddom pa bryd y gwyddanteu bod yn cael eu hystyried ar gyfer eudethol. Pa bryd y gwyddech hynny? Awyddech cyn gynted ag yr oedd eichswyddogion yn gwybod hynny? Panwyddoch fod hyn yn cael ei ystyried, pam nawnaethoch alw cyfarfod brys o’r grŵpstrategaeth cnydau wedi’u haddasu’n enetig?Yr ydym wedi ceisio cynnal sefyllfadrawsbleidiol ar hyn, ond mae’r sefyllfabresennol wedi codi amheuon ynghylchhynny. A gytunwch bod y penderfyniad hwnyn dangos dirmyg llwyr tuag atddemocratiaeth ar ran Adran yr Amgylchedd,Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau? A ymunwch âmi a Phlaid Cymru—The Party of Waleswrth fynnu cael ymddiheuriad gan JohnPrescott am y dirmyg gwarthus hwnnw?

Do you further agree that this mess illustratesthe weakness of the current devolutionsettlement, in that the unanimous view of theNational Assembly on such a vital issue canconstitutionally and legally be riddenroughshod over by Westminster andWhitehall? I would like your views, Minister,on what effect you think that this situation

A gytunwch ymhellach bod y llanastr hwn yndangos gwendid y setliad datganolipresennol, yn yr ystyr y gall San Steffan aWhitehall sathru yn gyfansoddiadol ac yngyfreithiol ar farn unfryd y CynulliadCenedlaethol ar fater mor hanfodol? Hoffwngael eich barn, Weinidog, ar ba effaith ycredwch y caiff y sefyllfa hon ar y cytundeb

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will have on the partnership agreement, giventhe strength of the views of your LiberalDemocrat colleagues on this issue. Do youagree that their credibility is called intoquestion if they continue to stay in aGovernment that has presided over this kindof mess?

partneriaeth, o ystyried cryfder barn eich cyd-Aelodau Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ar ymater hwn. A gytunwch bod amheuaethynghylch eu hygrededd os byddant yn parhaui aros mewn Llywodraeth sydd wedillywyddu dros y math hwn o lanastr?

On a practical level, I would like a little moredetail on the steps you can take, in addition tothe ones outlined, to lawfully prevent thesetrials. The strength of feeling locally on thatis clear. Finally, since your eye has,understandably, been off the ball on thisissue, will you ask the First Minister totransfer responsibility for GM matterstemporarily to the Minister for Environment,who may be better placed to give them herfull attention?

Ar lefel ymarferol, hoffwn gael ychydig mwyo fanylion ar y camau y gallwch eu cymryd,yn ogystal â’r camau a amlinellwyd, i atal ytreialon hyn yn gyfreithiol. Mae cryfder yteimlad lleol ar hynny’n glir. Yn olaf, gan eibod yn amlwg na fuoch yn canolbwyntio ar ymater hwn, a ofynnwch i Brif WeinidogCymru drosglwyddo’r cyfrifoldeb drosfaterion cnydau wedi’u haddasu’n enetig drosdro i’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, syddo bosibl mewn gwell sefyllfa i roi ei sylwllawn iddynt?

Carwyn Jones: Who said that there was ageneral election in June? [ASSEMBLYMEMBERS: ‘No-one.’]

Carwyn Jones: Pwy ddywedodd bodetholiad cyffredinol ym mis Mehefin?[AELODAU O’R CYNULLIAD: ‘Neb.’]

Well, there may well be one. That is on awithout prejudice basis.

Wel, efallai y bydd un. Mae hynny ar sail di-ymrwymiad.

The Presiding Officer: Order. There is noelection in the Assembly in June.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Ni fydd etholiad yn yCynulliad ym mis Mehefin.

Carwyn Jones: As far as taking my eye offthe ball is concerned, that is clearly not so, asI wrote two letters on 23 March, which wasright in the middle of this foot and mouthdisease crisis. There is clearly no question ofmy eye being taken off the ball. Throughoutthis process, in the absence of an undertakingby SCIMAC that a Welsh site would not beproposed, we had to assume that sites inWales were still under active consideration.If someone had asked me whether we wouldhave sites in Wales, all that I could have saidat the time was that we might or might not.The policy of the National Assembly is clearon this. I intend to follow and have followedthat policy. It was clear that we did not knowthat these three sites were selected in Walesuntil Monday. There is no question of usknowing of these three sites on 22 Marchbecause the decision had not been taken atthat stage.

Carwyn Jones: Cyn belled ag y mae peidio âchanolbwyntio yn y cwestiwn, yn amlwg nidyw hynny’n wir, oherwydd imi ysgrifennudau lythyr ar 23 Mawrth, a oedd yn unionyng nghanol yr argyfwng clwy’r traed a’rgenau hwn. Mae’n amlwg nad oes unrhywgwestiwn i mi fethu â chanolbwyntio. Drwygydol y broses hon, yn absenoldeb addewidgan SCIMAC na chaiff safle yng Nghymru eichynnig, yr oedd rhaid inni gymryd ynganiataol bod safleoedd yng Nghymru’n caeleu hystyried. Pe bai rhywun wedi gofyn imi afyddai gennym safleoedd yng Nghymru, yrunig beth y gallwn fod wedi’i ddweud ar ypryd oedd efallai neu efallai ddim. Maepolisi’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn glir arhyn. Bwriadaf ddilyn ac yr wyf wedi dilyn ypolisi hwnnw. Yr oedd yn glir na wyddom ydewiswyd y tri safle hwn yng Nghymru tanddydd Llun. Nid oes unrhyw gwestiwn einbod yn gwybod am y tri safle hyn ar 22Mawrth oherwydd nad oedd y penderfyniadwedi’i wneud ar y pryd.

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You quite sensibly asked where we go nextand what we can lawfully do. I have writtento ACRE asking it to undertake a full re-evaluation along the lines that I have alreadymentioned. If the answer is not to mysatisfaction, I will consider issuing aprohibition notice, under the provisions of theEnvironmental Protection Act 1990, to ensurethat a full scientific assessment is carried out.That is the proper and lawful line to take.

Gofynasoch yn ddigon synhwyrol beth yw’rcam nesaf a beth y gallwn ei wneud yngyfreithiol. Ysgrifennais at y PwyllgorYmgynghorol ar Ollyngiadau i’rAmgylchedd yn gofyn iddo gynnal ailasesiadllawn i’r perwyl y soniais amdano eisoes. Osna fyddaf yn fodlon â’r ateb, byddaf ynystyried cyhoeddi hysbysiad gwahardd, o danddarpariaethau Deddf Diogelu’r Amgylchedd1990, i sicrhau y cynhelir asesiad gwyddonolllawn. Dyna’r cam cywir a chyfreithlon i’wgymryd.

Mick Bates: I thank Helen Mary forrecognising that the source of this policy isthe Liberal Democratic Party.

Mick Bates: Diolch i Helen Mary am nodimai Plaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ywffynhonnell y polisi hwn.

We all regret the actions of the DETR incommissioning trials of genetically modifiedcrops in Flintshire and Pembrokeshire,particularly given the Assembly’s clearlystated policy. These actions are insensitiveand potentially irresponsible at a time ofagricultural crisis and restrictions onmovement in the countryside. The DETR andthe farmers concerned should pull out ofthese experiments before the crops areplanted.

Mae pawb ohonom yn gresynu atweithredoedd Adran yr Amgylchedd,Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau wrth gomisiynutreialon cnydau a addaswyd yn enetig yn Siry Fflint a Sir Benfro, yn enwedig o ystyriedpolisi clir y Cynulliad. Mae’r gweithredoeddhyn yn ansensitif gyda’r potensial o fod ynanghyfrifol ar amser o argyfwngamaethyddol a chyfyngiadau ar symud yngnghefn gwlad. Dylai Adran yr Amgylchedd,Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau a’r ffermwyrdan sylw dynnu’n ôl o’r arbrofion hyn cyn i’rcnydau gael eu plannu.

I will raise three issues. First, you referred,Minister, to issuing a prohibition notice underthe Environmental Protection Act 1990. Whywait? Why not do that now? Secondly, on thequestion of organic farms, what happens ifthe Soil Association finds GM contaminationon neighbouring farms? Who would be liablefor the economic loss to an organic farmerwhose livelihood is lost through GMcontamination? Finally, is the DETR likely toannounce further trials without consultation?

Codaf dri mater. Yn gyntaf, cyfeiriasoch,Weinidog, at gyhoeddi hysbysiad gwahardd odan Ddeddf Diogelu’r Amgylchedd 1990.Pam aros? Pam na ellir gwneud hynny ynawr? Yn ail, ar y cwestiwn o ffermyddorganig, beth fydd yn digwydd os bydd yGymdeithas Bridd yn canfod difwyniad ognydau wedi’u haddasu’n enetig ar ffermyddcyfagos? Pwy fyddai’n atebol am y golledeconomaidd i ffermwr organig sydd yn colliei fywoliaeth drwy ddifwyniad o gnydauwedi’u haddasu’n enetig? Yn olaf, a ywAdran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’rRhanbarthau yn debygol o gyhoeddi treialonpellach heb ymgynghori?

Carwyn Jones: I do not expect the DETR toannounce further trials, because the timetableset out in 1998 was a public timetable. We donot have any Part B consent crops beinggrown in Wales, so that I would not expectthat. As far as prohibition notices areconcerned, the legal advice is that we writefirst and then consider prohibition notices.

Carwyn Jones: Ni ddisgwyliaf i Adran yrAmgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthaugyhoeddi treialon pellach, oherwydd yr oeddyr amserlen a sefydlwyd yn 1998 yn ungyhoeddus. Ni chaiff unrhyw gnydaucaniatâd Rhan B eu tyfu yng Nghymru, fellyni fyddwn yn disgwyl hynny. O ranhysbysiadau gwahardd, y cyngor cyfreithiol

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There is no question of these crops beingplanted in the meantime. We are guardingagainst that eventuality. The first action is towrite to ACRE and take it from there. Therehas been a preliminary legal opinion on this,and that is the way that we intend to play it.With regard to GM contamination, the initiallegal advice suggests that liability forcontamination of other premises by GMcrops would rest with the farmer planting theGM crop.

yw y dylem ysgrifennu’n gyntaf ac ynaystyried hysbysiadau gwahardd. Nid oescwestiwn i’r cnydau hyn gael eu plannu yn ycyfamser. Yr ydym yn gwarchod rhag yposibilrwydd hwnnw. Y cam cyntaf ywysgrifennu at y Pwyllgor Ymgynghorol arOllyngiadau i’r Amgylchedd a datblygu ohynny. Cafwyd barn gyfreithiol ragarweiniolar hyn, a dyna sut y bwriadwn weithredu. Oran difwyniad o gnydau wedi’u haddasu’nenetig, awgryma’r cyngor cyfreithiolcychwynnol mai’r ffermwr sydd yn plannu’rcnwd a addaswyd yn enetig fyddai’n atebolam ddifwyno eiddo arall gan gnydau aaddaswyd yn enetig.

Peter Rogers: You should never haveallowed this issue to get so far. You havetaken your eye off the ball, and it shows anunacceptable lack of judgment. It leaves youwith no option other than to have ashowdown. You have already threatened yourcolleagues in London with the EnvironmentalProtection Act 1990. The burden of proof ison you to demonstrate a calculable risk to theenvironment if these trials proceed. What willhappen if ACRE does not save you?

Peter Rogers: Ni ddylech fod wedi caniatáui’r mater hwn fynd mor bell. Yr ydych wedimethu â chanolbwyntio, ac mae’n dangosdiffyg crebwyll annerbyniol. Nid oesgennych ddewis ond gwrthdaro benben. Yrydych eisoes wedi bygwth eich cyd-Aelodauyn Llundain â Deddf Diogelu’r Amgylchedd1990. Mae baich y prawf arnoch chi iarddangos risg fesuradwy i’r amgylchedd osbydd y treialon hyn yn parhau. Beth fydd yndigwydd os na fydd y PwyllgorYmgynghorol ar Ollyngiadau i’rAmgylchedd yn eich achub?

10:45 a.m.

Carwyn Jones: We have had severaldiscussions with DETR and SCIMAC on thisissue. Our points have not been accepted. TheNational Assembly’s views have been putforward as forcefully as possible to thosemaking the decisions. We must ensure thatwe take all possible steps to protect ourposition. I am concerned about the possibleeffects on organic farming within the areaswhere GM crops will be planted. A fullscientific assessment is needed to assess thesituation. You are correct to say that we mustshow that there would be an unacceptablerisk to the environment. We are thereforedemanding that a full scientific assessment becarried out.

Carwyn Jones: Cawsom sawl trafodaeth agAdran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’rRhanbarthau a SCIMAC ar y mater hwn. Nidderbyniwyd ein pwyntiau. Cyflwynwydbarn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol mor rymus âphosibl i’r rheini sydd yn gwneud ypenderfyniadau. Rhaid inni sicrhau ein bodyn cymryd pob cam posibl i ddiogelu einsefyllfa. Yr wyf yn poeni am yr effeithiauposibl ar ffermio organig o fewn yr ardaloeddlle caiff cnydau a addaswyd yn enetig euplannu. Mae angen asesiad gwyddonol llawni asesu’r sefyllfa. Yr ydych yn gywir iddweud bod rhaid inni ddangos y byddai risgannerbyniol i’r amgylchedd. Felly mynnwn ycynhelir asesiad gwyddonol llawn.

Ron Davies: I reassure you that PeterRogers’s views are not widely held in theAssembly. I think that you have handled thematter correctly. Procedures must befollowed and I think that you have followedthem in the way that is most likely to

Ron Davies: Gallaf eich sicrhau na chytunirâ barn Peter Rogers yn gyffredinol yn yCynulliad. Credaf eich bod wedi ymdrin â’rmater yn gywir. Rhaid dilyn gweithdrefnau achredaf eich bod wedi eu dilyn yn y fforddfwyaf tebygol o sicrhau’r canlyniad y mae’r

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guarantee the outcome the NationalAssembly wants. If you find yourself in aposition where you have to serve aprohibition notice, the National Assemblywill support you and expect you to do that.During the recess, will you bear in mind thatif you have to serve a prohibition notice, itmay be necessary to recall the Assembly inorder for you to have our support before youtake action?

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol am ei gael. Osbyddwch yn canfod eich hun mewn sefyllfalle mae’n rhaid ichi gyflwyno hysbysiadgwahardd, bydd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yneich cefnogi ac yn disgwyl ichi wneud hynny.Yn ystod y toriad, a gofiwch os bydd rhaidichi gyflwyno hysbysiad gwahardd, gallai fodyn angenrheidiol galw’r Cynulliad yn ôl ermwyn ichi gael ein cefnogaeth cyn ichiweithredu?

Carwyn Jones: Recalling the Assembly is amatter for the Llywydd. If ACRE’s replywere unsatisfactory the GM strategy groupwould be reconvened.

Carwyn Jones: Mater i’r Llywydd ywailalw’r Cynulliad. Pe bai ateb y PwyllgorYmgynghorol ar Ollyngiadau i’rAmgylchedd yn annerbyniol byddai’r grŵpstrategaeth cnydau wedi’u haddasu’n enetigyn cael ei ailgynnull.

Jocelyn Davies: How do you account for theDETR’s stance on crop trials in Wales? Wewere told last May that the Flintshire trialwas an error because officials thought thatSealand was in England and that they wouldmake every effort to move it. This year theyhave proceeded with a further three trials. Doyou think that there is a connection betweentheir change of attitude and the Assemblyflexing its muscles last October in refusing toapprove the UK list regulations?

Jocelyn Davies: Sut ydych yn esboniosafbwynt Adran yr Amgylchedd,Trafnididaeth a’r Rhanbarthau ar dreialoncnydau yng Nghymru? Dywedwyd wrthymfis Mai diwethaf bod treial Sir y Fflint yngamgymeriad oherwydd bod swyddogion yncredu bod Sealand yn Lloegr ac y byddant yngwneud pob ymdrech i’w symud. Elenimaent wedi mynd ymlaen â thri threial arall.A gredwch fod cysylltiad rhwng y newid yneu hagwedd a’r Cynulliad yn dangos ei rymfis Hydref diwethaf drwy wrthodcymeradwyo rheoliadau rhestr y DU?

Carwyn Jones: I was not responsible for thisportfolio last May. There was confusion overwhether the farm was in England or Wales.That is regrettable but that was the position. Icannot answer for the actions of the DETR.All of the National Assembly’s concerns onthis matter have been expressed to therelevant authorities in writing and orally.

Carwyn Jones: Nid fi oedd yn gyfrifol am yportffolio hwn fis Mai diwethaf. Yr oedddryswch ynghylch a oedd y fferm yngNghymru neu yn Lloegr. Mae hynny’n resynond dyna oedd y sefyllfa. Ni allaf ateb drosweithredoedd Adran yr Amgylchedd,Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau. Lleisiwyd hollbryderon y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ar y materhwn i’r awdurdodau perthnasol ynysgrifenedig ac ar lafar.

Datganiad ar Ddyfodol Canolfan Mileniwm CymruStatement on the Future of the Wales Millennium Centre

The Minister for Finance, LocalGovernment and Communities (EdwinaHart): On behalf of the First Minister and theMinister for Culture, Sport and the WelshLanguage, I am making a statement today onthe Wales Millennium Centre in view of thesignificant financial implications for theAssembly if it agrees to support this project.

Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, LlywodraethLeol a Chymunedau (Edwina Hart): Ar ranprif Weinidog Cymru a’r Gweinidog drosDdiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg, gwnafddatganiad heddiw ar Ganolfan MileniwmCymru yng ngoleuni’r goblygiadau ariannolarwyddocaol i’r Cynulliad os cytuna igefnogi’r prosiect hwn. Byddwch wedi gweld

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You will have seen the supporting paper thatI circulated earlier this morning. I apologisethat this was issued later than I had hoped,but Members will understand that importanttechnical issues needed to be resolved. Thestatement sets out the project’s position indetail, the legitimate concerns that havearisen and our proposals to enable it toproceed on a sound footing. Once thefinancial issues have been resolved, thefuture of the project will be the Minister forCulture’s responsibility.

y papur ategol a ddosbarthais yn gynharach ybore yma. Ymddiheuraf fod hwn wedi eigyhoeddi’n ddiweddarach nag yr oeddwnwedi gobeithio, ond bydd yr Aelodau’n deallbod angen datrys materion technegol pwysig.Noda’r datganiad sefyllfa’r prosiect yn fanwl,y pryderon cyfreithlon sydd wedi codi a’ncynigion i’w alluogi i barhau ar sail gadarn.Unwaith y bydd y materion ariannol wedi eudatrys, cyfrifoldeb y Gweinidog drosDdiwylliant fydd y prosiect.

As a result of my previous involvement withthe Wales Millennium Centre, as Minister forFinance I have only become officiallyengaged with the project after the FirstMinister’s statement last October. Inaccordance with the principles of financialaccountability, propriety and regularity thatthe Assembly upholds, I made a fulldeclaration of interest on 23 January 2001.

O ganlyniad i’m hymwneud blaenorol âChanolfan Mileniwm Cymru, fel yGweinidog dros Gyllid, dim ond ar ôldatganiad Prif Weinidog Cymru fis Hydrefdiwethaf y deuthum i ymwneud ynswyddogol â’r prosiect. Yn unol agegwyddorion atebolrwydd ariannol,priodoldeb a rheoleidd-dra y mae’r Cynulliadyn eu cynnal, gwneuthum ddatganiad llawn ofuddiant ar 23 Ionawr 2001.

If it were not for the National Assembly’sexistence, this issue could not be consideredso openly and democratically. The fact thatfull details of this project have been putbefore you, and before the public, and thatthey can be debated, is evidence that theAssembly has made a difference throughintroducing more open decision-making andbetter accountability.

Oni bai am fodolaeth y CynulliadCenedlaethol, ni allai’r mater hwn gael eiystyried mewn ffordd mor agored ademocrataidd. Mae’r ffaith bod manylionllawn y prosiect hwn wedi eu rhoi ger eichbron, a ger bron y cyhoedd ac y gellir cynnaldadl arnynt, yn dystiolaeth bod y Cynulliadwedi gwneud gwahaniaeth drwy gyflwynoproses gwneud penderfyniadau fwy agored agwell atebolrwydd.

Since the First Minister’s previous statementlast October, much has been done and goodprogress has been made. Officials haveworked closely with the Wales MillenniumCentre to bring the project to a point wherewe have a much clearer, but still not fullydefinitive, view of the risks and benefitsinvolved.

Ers datganiad blaenorol Prif WeinidogCymru fis Hydref diwethaf, gwnaethpwydllawer o waith a llawer o gynnydd. Maeswyddogion wedi gweithio’n agos âChanolfan Mileniwm Cymru i ddod â’rprosiect i bwynt lle mae gennym farn llawercliriach, ond nid hollol bendant o hyd, am yrisgiau a’r manteision dan sylw.

The key issue that we must face is clear. Wemust decide whether the project is of suchimportance to the cultural life of Wales, to itscreative industry, and to its internationalprofile, that the price—£92 million, or £100million including land and car park costs—isworth paying. We must do so at a time whenpressures on the Assembly’s resources areintense and growing.

Mae’r mater allweddol y mae’n rhaid inni eiwynebu yn un amlwg. Rhaid inni benderfynua yw’r prosiect mor bwysig i fywyddiwylliannol Cymru, ei diwydiant creadigola’i phroffil rhyngwladol, fel bod y pris—£92miliwn, neu £100 miliwn gan gynnwyscostau tir a maes parcio—yn werth ei dalu.Rhaid inni wneud hynny ar adeg pan fo’rpwysau ar adnoddau’r Cynulliad yn dwysáuac yn cynyddu.

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I welcome the news that Sir David Rowe-Beddoe has taken over as chair of the WalesMillennium Centre. On behalf of the FirstMinister and the Minister for Culture, Sportand the Welsh Language, it is appropriatethat I pay tribute to his predecessor, Sir AlanCox. Without Alan’s initial vision, drive,determination, and unfailing commitment tothe project since its inception some five yearsago, it would not have reached this point. Wewish him well. It is a tribute to Alan’s legacythat someone of David’s standing is willingto take the chair. The board and theAssembly can have the greatest confidence inDavid Rowe-Beddoe.

Croesawaf y newyddion fod Syr DavidRowe-Beddoe wedi ymgymryd â swyddcadeirydd Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru. Ar rany Prif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog drosDdiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg, mae’nbriodol fy mod yn talu teyrnged i’wragflaenydd, Syr Alan Cox. Heb weledigaethgychwynnol Alan, ei egni, penderfyniad a’iymrwymiad di-flino i’r prosiect ers eiddechrau tua phum mlynedd yn ôl, ni fyddaiwedi cyrraedd y pwynt hwn. Dymunwn yndda iddo. Mae’n deyrnged i waith caled Alanfod rhywun uchel ei barch fel David yn barodi fod yn gadeirydd. Gall y bwrdd a’rCynulliad fod â’r hyder mwyaf yn DavidRowe-Beddoe.

I confirm that the work commissioned tobring the project design to the serviceablestage D is complete. This detailed designrepresents a critical step in the process ofnailing down the parameters of cost and risk.A summary of the technical appraisal of thiswork carried out by Francis GravesLimited—our project monitor throughout theperiod—will be made available as soon as thecommercially-sensitive issues have beendealt with and any other matters resolved.That process extends to deciding on the typeof procurement method to be used. TheWales Millennium Centre has lately favouredconstruction management. Under thatapproach there can be no certainty about thecost of the project. All risk of overspend, forwhatever reason, would remain with theproject. As Sir Alan made clear at a recentSubject Committee meeting, it would fall tothe Assembly to underwrite those risks.

Cadarnhaf fod y gwaith a gomisiynwyd iddod â chynllun y prosiect i gam pwrpasol Dwedi ei gwblhau. Mae’r cynllun manwl hwnyn gam holl bwysig yn y broses o gadarnhauffiniau cost a risg. Bydd crynodeb owerthusiad technegol y gwaith hwn agynhaliwyd gan Francis GravesCyfyngedig—ein monitor ar gyfer y prosiectdrwy gydol y cyfnod—ar gael cyn gynted agyr ymdrinnir â’r materion sydd yn fasnacholsensitif a chyn gynted ag y caiff unrhywfaterion eraill eu datrys. Mae’r broseshonno’n ymestyn i wneud penderfyniad ar ymath o ddull caffael i’w ddefnyddio. Ynddiweddar, mae Canolfan Mileniwm Cymruwedi ffafrio rheolaeth dros waith adeiladu. Odan yr ymagwedd honno ni ellir bod yn sicrynglŷn â chost y prosiect. Byddai pob risggorwario, am ba reswm bynnag, yn arosgyda’r prosiect. Fel yr eglurodd Syr Alanmewn cyfarfod diweddar o’r Pwyllgor Pwnc,cyfrifoldeb y Cynulliad fyddai gwarantu’rrisgiau hynny.

In October, the First Minister made clear thatwe should look for 80 per cent cost certaintyat the beginning of the scheme. I cannot giveMembers a firm assurance today that we havecost certainty for the bulk of the project. Therisks of proceeding without the necessarycontrols are too great. The project cannot goforward on the basis of an Assembly blankcheque. Were this project to begin underconstruction management terms, it would beextremely difficult to resist demands forfurther funding. We would be signing up to alevel of capital support amounting to at least£37 million, but with no limit to our financial

Ym mis Hydref, eglurodd Prif WeinidogCymru y dylem edrych am sicrwydd o 80 ycant ar ddechrau’r cynllun. Ni allaf ddweudyn bendant wrth yr Aelodau heddiw fodsicrwydd cost gennym ar gyfer y rhan fwyafo’r prosiect. Mae’r risgiau o fynd ymlaen heby rheolaethau angenrheidiol yn rhy fawr. Niall y prosiect barhau ar sail siec wag gan yCynulliad. Pe bai’r prosiect hwn yn dechrau odan delerau rheolaeth dros waith adeiladu,byddai’n eithriadol o anodd ymwrthod â’rgalw am ragor o arian. Byddem yn ymrwymoi gefnogaeth cyfalaf o £37 miliwn o leiaf, ondheb unrhyw derfyn i’n hamlygiad ariannol.

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exposure. Against that background, I ampleased to confirm that the Wales MillenniumCentre board has concluded that it shouldapply a fixed-price contract approach toprocurement forthwith. We all welcome that.

Yn erbyn y cefndir hwnnw, mae’n blesergennyf gadarnhau bod Canolfan MileniwmCymru wedi dod i’r casgliad y dylaigymhwyso ymagwedd contract pris sefydlogtuag at gaffael ar unwaith. Croesewir hynnygan bob un ohonom.

Against the core £92 million cost estimate forthe project, which our advisers consider to bea realistic and achievable price, the WalesMillennium Centre has secured £55 million,in commitments or cash. I believe that theEuropean funding of £4 million that wasavailable is all but lost. Time expired becauseof work needed on redesign and to completepreparatory stages properly. Taking all thatinto account, the aggregate funding shortfallamounts to £25 million.

Yn erbyn yr amcangyfrif cost craidd o £92miliwn ar gyfer y prosiect, sydd yn brisrealistig a chyraeddadwy yn ôl einhymgynghorwyr, mae Canolfan MileniwmCymru wedi sicrhau £55 miliwn, mewnymrwymiadau neu arian parod. Credaf fod y£4 miliwn o arian Ewrop a oedd ar gael fwyneu lai wedi ei golli. Daeth yr amser i benoherwydd y gwaith yr oedd angen ei wneudar ailgynllunio ac ar gwblhau’r camaurhagbaratoi yn gywir. O gofio hynny i gyd,crynswth y diffyg arian yw £25 miliwn.

The Wales Millennium Centre’s hopes ofraising funds from other sources areambitious. It might be more realistic to thinkin terms of a target for private sectorsponsorship of £4 million rather than £8million, and a target for capital allowances of£5 million rather than £7 million. Even thenthere is a risk that the funds will notmaterialise. We must also discuss with theMillennium Commission whether it canrelease further funds for the project. We haveassumed £3 million and we must test itfurther on that figure.

Mae gobeithion Canolfan Mileniwm Cymruo godi arian o ffynonellau eraill ynuchelgeisiol. Efallai y byddai’n fwy realistigmeddwl yn nhermau targed ar gyfer nawddgan y sector preifat o £4 miliwn yn hytrachnag £8 miliwn, a tharged ar gyfer lwfansaucyfalaf o £5 miliwn yn hytrach na £7 miliwn.Hyd yn oed wedyn, mae risg na fydd yr arianar gael. Rhaid inni drafod gyda Chomisiwn yMileniwm hefyd i weld a all ryddhau rhagoro arian ar gyfer y prosiect. Yr ydym wedicymryd bod £3 miliwn ar gael a rhaid inni eibrofi ymhellach ar y ffigur hwnnw.

Like my colleagues, I believe the projectpromises tremendous benefits for the culturalfuture of Wales, for the generation of creativeindustry and for the promotion of culturaltourism from the rest of Europe and beyond.It brings with it substantial funding from theMillennium Commission, the arts lotteryfund and from other public and privatesources. That money will help to tackle theresource problems confronting the WelshNational Opera and Diversions DanceCompany, for example, which mightotherwise call on us. Ending the projectwould mean that Wales would lose thebenefits of these lottery funds and some £11million of funds already expended wouldhave been expended to no purpose.

Fel fy nghyd-Aelodau, credaf fod y prosiectyn addo buddiannau enfawr i ddyfodoldiwylliannol Cymru, i’r broses o greudiwydiant creadigol ac er mwyn hyrwyddotwristiaeth ddiwylliannol o weddill Ewrop athu hwnt. Daw arian sylweddol yn ei sgîl oGomisiwn y Mileniwm, cronfa loteri’rcelfyddydau ac o ffynonellau cyhoeddus aphreifat eraill. Bydd yr arian hwnnw yn helpui fynd i’r afael â’r problemau o ran adnoddausydd yn wynebu Cwmni Opera CenedlaetholCymru a Chwmni Dawns Diversions, erenghraifft, a allai ddod ar ein gofyn fel arall.Byddai dod â’r prosiect i ben yn golygu ybyddai Cymru yn colli manteision yr arianloteri hwn a byddai tua £11 miliwn wedi eiwario hyd yma.

10:55 a.m.

The centre offers a blend of artistic Mae’r Ganolfan yn cynnig cymysgedd o

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ingredients that has no counterpart anywhereelse in the world, together with worthwhileeconomic employment benefits that wouldnot be confined to Cardiff Bay. There is astrong case that the increased price is worthpaying as long as it is subject to a genuinelydisciplined control regime to contain risksand to manage costs. Thus, from a financialpoint of view, I am content to commend theproject to you in principle, subject to certainconditions.

gynhwysion artistig nad oes eu tebyg ynunman arall yn y byd, ynghyd â buddiannaucyflogaeth economaidd gwerthfawr nafyddai’n gyfyngedig i Fae Caerdydd. Maeachos cryf dros ddadlau bod y pris cynyddolyn werth ei dalu cyhyd â’i fod yn agored igyfundrefn reoli ddisgybledig wirioneddol ermwyn cynnal y risgiau a rheoli’r costau.Felly, o safbwynt ariannol, yr wyf yn fodloncymeradwyo’r prosiect ichi mewn egwyddor,yn dibynnu ar rai amodau.

First, it is essential that the WalesMillennium Centre adopts a procurementmethod based on a fixed-price contract, andthat has now been done. However, there willinevitably be a modest delay to test themarket, which itself could be usedproductively to finalise project planning. Theassociated support cost to keep the centre inbusiness in the run-up to construction wouldbe £2 million. That is not an insignificantsum and when bridging arrangements for theAMEC settlement are taken into account, thetotal bill would be almost £3 million.

Yn gyntaf, mae’n hanfodol bod CanolfanMileniwm Cymru yn mabwysiadu dullcaffael yn seiliedig ar gontract pris sefydlog,a gwnaethpwyd hynny erbyn hyn. Foddbynnag, bydd rhywfaint o oedi yn anochel ermwyn profi’r farchnad. Gellid defnyddio’rcyfnod hwn yn gynhyrchiol i gwblhau’rgwaith o gynllunio’r prosiect. Byddai’r gostgefnogol gysylltiedig i gadw’r ganolfanmewn busnes yn y cyfnod cyn y gwaithadeiladu yn £2 filiwn. Nid yw hynny’n swmansylweddol a phan ystyrir trefniadau pontioar gyfer setliad AMEC, byddai’r bil terfynolbron yn £3 miliwn.

Secondly, the board and the executive need tobe reshaped and augmented to handle thecapital development phase. I know that DavidRowe-Beddoe, in particular, wants to workwith the board to achieve this. There mustalso be practised support at staff level tomanage the project in a way thatcomplements the chief executive’s talentsculturally and operationally.

Yn ail, mae angen ailffurfio ac ymestyn ybwrdd a’r gweithgor er mwyn ymdopi â’rcam datblygu cyfalaf. Gwn fod David Rowe-Beddoe, yn arbennig, yn dymuno gweithiogyda’r bwrdd i gyflawni hyn. Rhaid caelcefnogaeth brofiadol ar lefel y staff i reoli’rprosiect mewn ffordd sydd yn ategutalentau’r prif weithredwr yn ddiwylliannolac yn weithredol.

We must face the fact that the result oftesting the market under a fixed-pricecontract could result in unaffordable tenders.If the project price exceeded £92 million—ifthe implied Assembly contribution felloutside the assessed range—it would not beaffordable and could not proceed. If costcertainty consequent on a fixed-price testshowed a project cost of over £92 million thiswould automatically mean that the WalesMillennium Centre project would notproceed. We should not be prepared to enterinto any arrangement where our commitmentis not fixed. Today I set a limit clearly foreveryone to see: you, the industry and theMillennium Centre itself. You must all takenote of it.

Rhaid inni wynebu’r ffaith y gallai canlyniadprofi’r farchnad o dan gontract pris sefydlogarwain at dendrau na ellir eu fforddio. Pe baipris y prosiect yn fwy na £92 miliwn—pebai’r cyfraniad y byddai disgwyl i’rCynulliad ei dalu’n syrthio y tu allan i’r ystoda aseswyd—ni fyddai’n fforddiadwy ac niallai fynd yn ei flaen. Pe bai sicrwydd cost yndilyn prawf pris sefydlog yn dangos costprosiect o dros £92 miliwn byddai hyn ynawtomatig yn golygu na fyddai prosiectCanolfan Mileniwm Cymru yn mynd yn eiflaen. Ni ddylem fod yn barod i lunio unrhywdrefniant lle nad yw ein hymrwymiad ynsefydlog. Heddiw, gosodaf derfyn clir i bawbei weld: chi, y diwydiant a Chanolfan yMileniwm ei hun. Rhaid i bob un ohonochgymryd sylw ohono.

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The paper draws attention to one technicalissue, namely the adjudication between theWales Millennium Centre and AMEC.Assuming that the project proceeded on thebasis outlined today then the outstandingclaim—some £900,000 with a short-termdemand of £180,000—must be met. My viewis that the costs should be borne by the WalesMillennium Centre, but not from the publicfunds invested in it, even though there couldwell be a requirement for some bridgingarrangements in the short term.

Mae’r papur yn tynnu sylw at un matertechnegol, sef y dyfarniad rhwng CanolfanMileniwm Cymru ac AMEC. O gymryd ybyddai’r prosiect yn parhau ar y sail aamlinellir heddiw yna rhaid i’r caisdyledus—tua £900,000 gyda galw tymor byro £180,000—gael ei dalu. Yn fy marn iCanolfan Mileniwm Cymru ddylaiysgwyddo’r gost, ond nid o’r ariancyhoeddus a fuddsoddwyd ynddi, er y gellidcael gofyniad ar gyfer rhai trefniadau pontioyn y tymor byr.

I turn to the post-construction operationalphase. The Wales Millennium Centre is notonly about delivering a landmark building totime and within budget, it must also operatesuccessfully, both culturally and financially.Delivering the plan will be challenging. Inthe past, the board has taken the view that thecentre will operate without public subsidy.However, we cannot take that assessment atface value. We commissionedPriceWaterhouseCoopers to review the planand a summary will be made available oncethe commercially sensitive issues have beendealt with and any other matters resolved.You will be aware of the recent CultureCommittee debate when the WalesMillennium Centre was questioned on thebusiness case. The Committee was robust andtenacious in its approach and helped tohighlight just how challenging achieving thebusiness plan is, as well as severaloperational issues that still do not appear tohave been fully resolved.

Trof at y cyfnod gweithredol ôl-adeiladu. Nidcyflwyno adeilad tirnod ar amser ac o fewncyllideb yw unig nod Canolfan MileniwmCymru. Rhaid iddi weithredu’n llwyddiannushefyd, yn ddiwylliannol ac yn ariannol. Byddcyflwyno’r cynllun yn her. Yn y gorffennol,coleddodd y bwrdd y farn y bydd y ganolfanyn gweithredu heb gymhorthdal cyhoeddus.Fodd bynnag, ni allwn dderbyn yr asesiadhwnnw heb ei gwestiynu. ComisiynwydPriceWaterhouseCoopers gennym i adolygu’rcynllun a bydd crynodeb ar gael unwaith yrymdrinnir â’r materion sydd yn fasnacholsensitif ac unwaith y caiff unrhyw faterioneraill eu datrys. Byddwch yn ymwybodol oddadl ddiweddar y Pwyllgor Diwylliant panholwyd Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru am yrachos busnes. Yr oedd y Pwyllgor yn gadarna dygn yn ei ymagwedd a helpodd ibwysleisio pa mor anodd yw cyflawni’rcynllun busnes, yn ogystal â sawl matergweithredol nad ydynt, yn ôl pob tebyg, wedieu datrys eto.

Therefore, there remain real concerns. Canthe centre sustain over 400,000 theatreattendances annually? Are the occupancyrates of 70 per cent for 300 performancesevery year achievable? Will a further 350,000people visit the centre as projected? Ifaudience numbers fail to match expectations,the centre will immediately run into a deficit.The Wales Millennium Centre hasacknowledged this indirectly by indicatingthat a programme of national andinternational quality would require publicsubsidy of £750,000 annually.

Felly, erys pryderon gwirioneddol. A all yganolfan gynnal mwy na 400,000 o bobl yndod i’r theatr bob blwyddyn? A yw’rcyfraddau presenoldeb o 70 y cant ar gyfer300 o berfformiadau bob blwyddyn yngyraeddadwy? A fydd 350,000 arall o boblyn ymweld â’r ganolfan fel y rhagwelwyd?Os na fydd nifer y cynulleidfaoedd yncyfateb â disgwyliadau, bydd y ganolfan ynwynebu diffyg ar unwaith. Mae CanolfanMileniwm Cymru wedi cydnabod hyn ynanuniongyrchol drwy nodi y byddai rhaglen oansawdd cenedlaethol a rhyngwladol yn galwam gymhorthdal cyhoeddus o £750,000 yflwyddyn.

The Arts Council of Wales suggests that Awgryma Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru y

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support amounting to some £800,000 will beneeded. The council does not have theresources to provide for this, therefore, theAssembly would have to find the additionalfunds. In addition, provision for the ongoingmaintenance appears low and to establish arealistic fund could cost a further £0.5 millionper year. It is also worth noting that ifaudience numbers fell below expectations thecentre would lose income. If corrective actionwas not successful that could become arecurrent problem.

bydd angen tua £800,000. Nid oes gan ycyngor yr adnoddau i ddarparu ar gyfer hyn,felly, byddai’n rhaid i’r Cynulliad ddod o hydi’r arian ychwanegol. Yn ogystal, ymddengysmai prin yw’r ddarpariaeth, ar gyfer y gwaithcynnal a chadw parhaus a gallai sefydlucronfa realistig gostio £0.5 miliwn arall yflwyddyn. Mae hefyd yn werth nodi ybyddai’r ganolfan yn colli incwm pe bai nifery cynulleidfaoedd yn is na’r disgwyl. Os nafyddai’r camau a gymerir i unioni hyn ynllwyddiannus gallai hynny fynd yn broblemreolaidd.

We must take account of the reasonabledesires of artists across Wales to contribute tothe success of the centre and to grow andflourish where they are, which means that wemust consider increased provision for the artselsewhere in Wales. The Wales MillenniumCentre cannot be allowed to operate at theirexpense—it will need their product.

Rhaid inni ystyried dymuniadau rhesymolartistiaid ledled Cymru i gyfrannu atlwyddiant y ganolfan ac i dyfu a ffynnu llebynnag y bônt, sydd yn golygu bod yn rhaidinni ystyried darpariaeth gynyddol ar gyfer ycelfyddydau mewn rhannau eraill o Gymru.Ni ellir caniatáu i Ganolfan Mileniwm Cymruweithredu ar eu traul hwy—bydd angen eucynnyrch arni.

We must give the centre a genuine chance tosucceed. Therefore, we must also be realisticabout the potential call on us for revenuefunding over the years ahead. Taking allthese issues together, we must be prepared tocontemplate a revenue cost of around £3million to go directly to the WalesMillennium Centre and a broadly equivalentsum to cover the complementary implicationselsewhere. To enable the project to go ahead,and to consider the impact of the WalesMillennium Centre more widely, the SubjectCommittee will be invited to consider theassessment of the level of risk on revenuesubsidy and to be reassured that it makesreasonable sense. David Rowe-Beddoe willwant to keep the Subject Committeeinformed about the steps that he will betaking to re-base the project.

Rhaid inni roi cyfle gwirioneddol i’r ganolfanlwyddo. Felly, rhaid inni fod yn realistighefyd ynglŷn â’r galw posibl arnom am arianrefeniw yn y blynyddoedd i ddod. Wrthystyried yr holl faterion hyn gyda’i gilydd,rhaid inni fod yn barod i ystyried cost refeniwo tua £3 miliwn i fynd yn uniongyrchol iGanolfan Mileniwm Cymru a swm cyfatebolfwy neu lai i dalu’r goblygiadau ategol mewnmannau eraill. Er mwyn galluogi’r prosiect ifynd yn ei flaen, ac i ystyried effaithCanolfan Mileniwm Cymru mewn cyd-destun ehangach, gwahoddir y PwyllgorPwnc i ystyried asesu lefel y risg ar arianrefeniw ac i’w sicrhau ei fod yn gwneudsynnwyr rhesymol. Bydd David Rowe-Beddoe eisiau hysbysu’r Pwyllgor Pwnc ynrheolaidd o’r camau y bydd yn eu cymryd iroi sail newydd i’r prosiect.

In summary, and in principle, we can give thegreen light to the project provided that itmeets the following tests: the procurementmethod must, and now will, rest on a fixed-priced contract. The project may proceedprovided that the price, post tender, does nottake us beyond the £92 million cost envelope.The Assembly must have David Rowe-Beddoe’s assurance that the board andexecutive will be well equipped to tackle thenext phase of the project, and that the

Wrth grynhoi, ac mewn egwyddor, gallwn roirhwydd hynt i’r prosiect ar yr amod ei fod ynbodloni’r amodau canlynol: rhaid i’r dullcaffael, ac fe fydd yn awr, ddibynnu argontract pris sefydlog. Gall y prosiect fyndyn ei flaen ar yr amod nad yw’r pris, ar ôltendro, yn mynd â ni tu hwnt i’r trothwy o£92 miliwn. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad gaelsicrwydd gan David Rowe-Beddoe y bydd ybwrdd a’r gweithgor mewn sefyllfa dda ifynd i’r afael â cham nesaf y prosiect, ac y

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building sub-committee is given the capacityto tackle the task fully. That is important. TheSubject Committee must take stock of and bereassured by the business plan and by theextent to which it can be reasonably expectedthat the operational phase can beaccomodated within the annual amount of £2million should the centre fail to deliver on itsambition to operate without public subsidy.The Committee must also be reassured thatsupport of a broadly similar order forassociated artistic activity elsewhere in Walesis realistic.

rhoddir yr awdurdod i’r is-bwyllgor adeiladufynd i’r afael â’r dasg yn llwyr. Mae hynny’nbwysig. Rhaid i’r Pwyllgor Pwnc roiystyriaeth i’r cynllun busnes a rhaid i’rcynllun busnes a’r graddau y gellir ynrhesymol ddisgwyl i’r cam gweithredol gaelei gynnwys o fewn y swm blynyddol o £2filiwn pe bai’r ganolfan yn methu âchyflawni ei huchelgais i weithredu hebnawdd cyhoeddus roi tawelwch meddwl i’rPwyllgor hefyd. Rhaid i’r Pwyllgor hefydgael ei sicrhau bod cefnogi gorchymyn eithaftebyg am weithgaredd artistig cysylltiedigmewn rhannau eraill o Gymru yn realistig.

Given the necessary continuation funding forthe project through the summer, it will beready to go ahead provided that theseconditions are met. There is every reason tothink that they will be. However, if any ofthose conditions are not met, the project mustinevitably fall. They will have to be metsimultaneously before the autumn. There isno case for incurring substantial extrapreparatory support costs for the WalesMillennium Centre once the result of thefixed price invitation is known. TheGovernment of the Assembly will notsupport this project unless the financial teststhat I have identified are passed. The testsmust be passed for us to fulfil our obligationsas a Government. However, there are alsopolitical tests. This project seeks to benefit allinterests—cultural, economic and social—and all parts of Wales. It will only go ahead ifthere is support in all political parties and inall parts of Wales. Ultimately, it is right thatMembers vote on a motion to support thisproject. When that happens, the Governmentof the Assembly will not be looking for abare majority, but for support in every partyand from all parts of Wales.

O gofio’r arian parhad angenrheidiol ar gyfery prosiect drwy gydol yr haf, bydd yn barod ifynd ymlaen ar yr amod y bodlonir yramodau hyn. Mae pob rheswm i gredu y cânteu bodloni. Fodd bynnag, os na fodlonirunrhyw un o’r amodau hyn, bydd y prosiectyn anochel yn methu. Bydd yn rhaid eubodloni ar yr un pryd cyn yr Hydref. Nid oesunrhyw ddadl dros fynd i gostau cynnalrhagbaratoi ychwanegol sylweddol ar gyferCanolfan Mileniwm Cymru unwaith y byddcanlyniad y gwahoddiad pris sefydlog ynhysbys. Ni fydd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yncefnogi’r prosiect hwn oni fodlonir yramodau ariannol a nodais. Rhaid i’r amodaugael eu bodloni er mwyn inni gyflawni einrhwymedigaethau fel Llywodraeth. Foddbynnag, mae amodau gwleidyddol hefyd.Mae’r prosiect hwn yn ceisio bod o fudd ibawb sydd â diddordeb—diwylliannol,economaidd a chymdeithasol—ac i bob rhano Gymru. Yn y pen draw, mae’n iawn bod yrAelodau yn pleidleisio ar gynnig i gefnogi’rprosiect hwn. Pan ddigwydd hynny, ni fyddLlywodraeth y Cynulliad yn edrych am ylleiafrif lleiaf, ond am gefnogaeth ym mhobplaid ac o bob rhan o Gymru.

The approach that we commend to you restson a candid assessment of the realities facingus. It is also based on a determination to beclear-sighted about the overall project costsand about the remaining tests that the projectshould meet if we are to be confident about itgoing ahead. Those same tests rest on a far-sighted appreciation of the project’s potentialfor Wales, which could be part of Wales’sdefinition of itself—confident of our culturalidentity, by not only investing in a building,but in our people’s ability to express

Mae’r ymagwedd a gymeradwywn ichi yndibynnu ar asesiad diduedd o’r gwirioneddausydd yn ein hwynebu. Mae hefyd yn seiliedigar benderfyniad i fod yn graff ynglŷn âchostau cyffredinol y prosiect ac ynglŷn â’ramodau sydd yn weddill y dylai’r prosiect eubodloni os ydym i fod yn hyderus ynglŷn âmynd ymlaen â’r prosiect. Mae’r un amodauhynny yn dibynnu ar werthfawrogiadpellgyrhaeddol o botensial y prosiect iGymru, a allai fod yn rhan o ddiffiniadCymru ei hun—hyder yn ein hunaniaeth

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themselves on a world stage. The benefits ofthis project are substantial. However, thisAssembly has a responsible Government thatis determined to control the costs. Thisstatement has established the financial andpolitical tests that this project must meet if itis to go ahead. The project deserves thechance to pass these tests.

ddiwylliannol, drwy fuddsoddi nid yn unigmewn adeilad, ond yng ngallu pobl i fynegieu hunain ar lwyfan y byd. Mae buddiannau’rprosiect hwn yn sylweddol. Fodd bynnag,mae gan y Cynulliad hwn Lywodraethgyfrifol sydd yn benderfynol o reoli’r costau.Mae’r datganiad hwn wedi sefydlu’r amodauariannol a gwleidyddol y mae’n rhaid i’rprosiect hwn eu bodloni os yw i fynd yn eiflaen. Mae’r prosiect yn haeddu’r cyfle ifodloni’r amodau hyn.

Owen John Thomas: Yr wyf wedi cefnogiprosiect Canolfan y Mileniwm o’r dechrau,ond gwerthfawrogaf gymhlethdod mentersydd yn disgwyl denu 0.75 miliwn o bobl yflwyddyn i’w gwahanol weithgareddau.Sylweddolaf hefyd mor anodd yw bod yn sicram gost datblygiad mor fawr, yn enwedigmewn oes lle y mae etifeddiaeth Thatcher ynparhau i wneud gwariant cyhoeddus ynbechod yn hytrach na rhinwedd. Foddbynnag, o glywed datganiad y Gweinidog,mae wedi llwyddo i gadw’r prosiect ar ycledrau trwy ystyried ei agweddau pendant acansicr yn ogystal â’r senarios gorau agwaethaf o ran cost.

Owen John Thomas: I have supported theWales Millennium Centre project from thebeginning, but I appreciate the complexity ofan initiative that expects to attract 0.75million people a year to its various activities.I also realise how difficult it is to be certainof the cost of such a large development,particularly in an age where the inheritanceof Thatcher continues to make publicspending a sin rather than a virtue. However,from listening to the Minister’s statement,she has succeeded in keeping the project ontrack by considering its definite and uncertainaspects as well as the best and worst casescenarios in terms of cost.

11:05 a.m.

Am iddi fod yn agored, mae’r Gweinidogwedi datgelu amrediad o bosibiliadaucyllidol, sydd yn cynnwys dychymyg yroptimist a’r pesimist heb gladdu harddwch yfreuddwyd.

As she has been open, the Minister hasdisclosed a range of financial possibilities,including the imagination of the optimist andthe pessimist without burying the beauty ofthe project.

Mae’r Gweinidog yn iawn i dynnu ein sylwat y golled fawr i gyrff megis Cwmni OperaCenedlaethol Cymru petaem yn colli’r ariansylweddol gan Gomisiwn y Mileniwm affynonellau eraill. Mae’n iawn hefyd i fynnubod y gwaith adeiladu ar y prosiect yn cael eireoli gan Ganolfan y Mileniwm dan gytundebcost sefydlog er mwyn rhwystro costauadeiladu ychwanegol rhag syrthio arysgwyddau’r Cynulliad. Mae’n iawn ibwysleisio’r tebygrwydd y bydd eisiaucefnogaeth gyhoeddus i’r cynllun busnes igadw’r glorian yn gytbwys. Wrth gynniguchafswm o £2 filiwn y flwyddyn i wneudhyn, mae’n rhoi sicrwydd i’r prosiect. Wrthgynnig £2 filiwn arall ar gyfer gweithgaredddiwylliannol ar draws Cymru, mae’n cynnigmoddion i leddfu’r boen a achoswyd gan‘Cardiffobia’.

The Minister is right to draw our attention tothe great loss that organisations such asWelsh National Opera would incurr if wewere to lose the substantial funding from theMillennium Commission and other sources.She is also right to insist that the constructionwork on the project be managed by the WalesMillennium Centre under a fixed pricecontract in order to prevent the Assemblyhaving to shoulder additional building costs.She is right to emphasise the likelihood thatthe business plan will need public support tokeep the scales balanced. In proposing amaximum of £2 million a year to do this, shegives the project security. In proposing afurther £2 million for cultural activity acrossWales, she offers relief for the pain caused by‘Cardiffobia’.

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I ask the Minister to consider two crucialpoints. First, to recognise the importance oflarge numbers of people being able to traveleasily to and from the bay. By maximisingthe accessibility of the capital city for all thepeople of Wales, we would move furtherfrom the worst case scenario for the WalesMillennium Centre and closer to the ideal ofa unified nation. Fortunately, the time is rightto capitalise on Objective 1 funding in theValleys. That, together with a single railfranchise for Wales, can help to make thecapital city and our national institutions andcentres accessible to all the people of Wales.

Gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog ystyried dau bwyntholl bwysig. Yn gyntaf, i gydnabod pa morbwysig yw hi y gall nifer fawr o bobldeithio’n hawdd yn ôl ac ymlaen i’r bae.Drwy wneud y gorau o hygyrchedd ybrifddinas i holl bobl Cymru, byddem ynsymud ymhellach yn awr o’r senariogwaethaf i’r Ganolfan ac yn agosach atddelfryd cenedl unedig. Yn ffodus, mae’ramser yn iawn i fanteisio ar arian Amcan 1yn y Cymoedd. Gall hynny, ynghyd âmasnachfraint rheilffyrdd sengl i Gymru,helpu i wneud y brifddinas a’n sefydliadaua’n canolfannau cenedlaethol yn hygyrch iholl bobl Cymru.

I now turn to the ownership of the site of theWales Millennium Centre. As this prestigiousproject would contribute so much to Cardiff’sendeavour to be the European Capital ofCulture in 2008, it would seem reasonableand symbiotic for Cardiff City and CountyCouncil to grant the Wales MillenniumCentre a lease on the land at a peppercornrent. That would further reduce a possiblecharge on the remainder of Wales and raisethe capital’s standing beyond the M4 andpoints east and west.

Trof yn awr at berchenogaeth safle CanolfanMileniwm Cymru. Gan y byddai’r prosiectmawreddog hwn yn cyfrannu gymaint atymdrech Caerdydd i fod yn GanolfanDiwylliant Ewrop yn 2008, byddai’nymddangos yn rhesymol ac yn symbiotig iGyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd ganiatáuprydles i Ganolfan Mileniwm Cymru ar y tiram rent rhad. Byddai hynny’n lleihau’rposibilrwydd o godi tâl ar weddill Cymru abyddai’n ymestyn statws y brifddinas y tuhwnt i’r M4 a mannau i’r dwyrain a’rgorllewin.

Edwina Hart: I do not doubt Owen John’spassion for the project. I have heard himspeak about it many times. I am afraid that,as Minister for Finance, I cannot have muchpassion; I must outline the worst casescenarios. I have tried to do that today.Transport issues have been discussed. I knowthat Sue Essex is particularly concernedabout transport into the bay and the localauthority is concerned about access to theWales Millennium Centre. That is important.

Edwina Hart: Nid wyf yn amaubrwdfrydedd Owen John dros y prosiect. Fe’iclywais yn sôn amdano droeon. Ofnaf, fel yGweinidog dros Gyllid, na allaf fod yr unmor frwd; rhaid imi amlinellu’r senariosgwaethaf. Ceisiais wneud hynny heddiw.Trafodwyd materion trafnidiaeth. Gwn fodSue Essex yn gofidio’n arbennig amdrafnidiaeth i mewn i’r bae ac mae’rawdurdod lleol yn gofidio am fynediad iGanolfan Mileniwm Cymru. Mae hynny’nbwysig.

I stated in the note that I circulated toMembers this morning that I have discussedthe position of Cardiff City and CountyCouncil with its leader. It supports thisproject and wants to move ahead with its bidto be the European Capital of Culture in2008. We must understand that this is amatter for the local authority. It will beaccountable to the electorate for its actions onland and car park issues. It would be helpfulat this stage to acknowledge that it has been

Dywedais yn y nodyn a anfonais at yrAelodau y bore yma fy mod wedi trafodsefyllfa Cyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd gyda’iarweinydd. Mae’r cyngor yn cefnogi’rprosiect hwn ac am symud ymlaen gyda’igynnig i fod yn Brifddinas Diwylliant Ewropyn 2008. Rhaid inni ddeall mai mater i’rawdurdod lleol yw hyn. Bydd yn atebol i’retholwyr am ei weithredoedd o ran materiontir a maes parcio. Byddai’n ddefnyddiol ar yradeg hon i gydnabod y bu’n gefnogol i’m

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supportive of my statement today. datganiad heddiw.

Val Feld: The Minister stated that there arestill considerable hurdles ahead for thisproject. Does she share my concern that, forthe last several days, the Welsh media hasbeen running stories that this project is homeand dry? Does the Minister agree that weneed to explain that considerable tests mustbe met before that will be the case? TheMinister referred, properly, to the need toensure that the whole of Wales benefits fromthis project. Will she consider adding to thetests an assessment of how the rest of Waleswill benefit from this new centre? She alsoreferred to further approval by the Assembly.When will the Assembly have an opportunityto vote on this matter, so that Members canmake their views clearly known? I have greatreservations about going ahead with a projectof this scale without the Assembly having astrategy for the location of both publicinstitutions in the arts, culture and sports, andpublic bodies. I know that this is not allwithin the Minister’s remit. However, shestated that she was speaking on behalf of theFirst Minister and the Minister for Culture,Sport and the Welsh Language. Will theMinister assure us that work will beundertaken to develop such a strategy, so thatfuture decisions are made within a policyframework that examines how we shouldspread our resources across Wales?

Val Feld: Dywedodd y Gweinidog fodrhwystrau sylweddol yn wynebu’r prosiecthwn o hyd. A yw’n rhannu fy mhryder y bu’rcyfryngau yng Nghymru, dros y dyddiaudiwethaf, yn datgan bod y prosiect hwn wedillwyddo? A gytuna’r Gweinidog fod angeninni egluro bod yn rhaid bodloni amodausylweddol cyn y bydd hynny’n wir?Cyfeiriodd y Gweinidog, yn briodol, at yrangen i sicrhau bod Cymru gyfan yn elwa ary prosiect hwn. A wnaiff hi ystyriedychwanegu asesiad at yr amodau hyn o sut ybydd gweddill Cymru yn elwa ar y ganolfannewydd hon? Cyfeiriodd hefyd amgymeradwyaeth bellach gan y Cynulliad.Pryd y caiff y Cynulliad gyfle i bleidleisio ary mater hwn, fel y gall yr Aelodau wneud eubarn yn hysbys? Mae gennyf amheuon mawrynglŷn â mynd ymlaen â phrosiect o’r mainthwn heb fod gan y Cynulliad strategaeth argyfer lleoliad sefydliadau cyhoeddus yn ycelfyddydau, diwylliant a chwaraeon, achyrff cyhoeddus. Gwn nad yw hyn i gyd ofewn cylch gwaith y Gweinidog. Foddbynnag, nododd ei bod yn siarad ar ran y PrifWeinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant,Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg. A wnaiff yGweinidog ein sicrhau yr ymgymerir â’rgwaith i ddatblygu strategaeth o’r fath, fel ygwneir penderfyniadau yn y dyfodol o fewnfframwaith polisi sydd yn ymchwilio i’rffordd y dylem ddosbarthu ein hadnoddauledled Cymru?

Edwina Hart: As far as I am concerned, alldecisions about our use of resources acrossWales are made within a policy framework. Iknow that the Minister for Culture, Sport andthe Welsh Language has that at the forefrontof her mind, from the discussions that wehave had, including those about the WalesMillennium Centre. I am aware that the chairand members of the Culture Committee arealso concerned about the strategic approach.

Edwina Hart: O’m rhan i, gwneir pobpenderfyniad ynglŷn â’n defnydd o adnoddauledled Cymru o fewn fframwaith polisi. Gwnfod hynny’n flaenoriaeth i’r Gweinidog drosDdiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg, o’rtrafodaethau a gawsom, gan gynnwys ytrafodaethau hynny ynglŷn â ChanolfanMileniwm Cymru. Yr wyf yn ymwybodolbod cadeirydd ac aelodau’r PwyllgorDiwylliant yn gofidio hefyd ynglŷn â’rymagwedd strategol.

As regards the debate that will be held inPlenary, that will be a matter for the Ministerfor Culture, but I have indicated thatdiscussion must take place in the CultureCommittee. The Committee will want to takeits time to deliberate the Wales MillenniumCentre around the beginning of June to the

O ran y ddadl a gynhelir yn y CyfarfodLlawn, bydd hynny’n fater i’r Gweinidogdros Ddiwylliant, ond nodais fod yn rhaid i’rdrafodaeth honno ddigwydd yn y PwyllgorDiwylliant. Bydd y Pwyllgor am gymryd eiamser i drafod Canolfan Mileniwm Cymrurhwng dechrau Mehefin a diwedd

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end of July. Gorffennaf.

On the issue of the press, I do not generallycomment about what goes on in the fourthestate. Obviously there will always bespeculation. My statement makes theGovernment’s position clear.

O ran y wasg, nid wyf yn gyffredinol yn sônam yr hyn sydd yn digwydd yn y wasg. Ynamlwg, bydd dyfalu bob amser. Mae fynatganiad yn nodi safbwynt y Llywodraethyn glir.

I must say that I am not interested in yourtests, Val. Sometimes we must recognise thatthese projects are not within our control. TheWales Millennium Centre project started longbefore the Assembly was established. TheWales Millennium Centre is responsible forthat project and it had sufficient motivation tostart the project and attract money from theMillennium Commission. Let us be under noillusions in this Chamber: if this project doesnot go ahead, that Millennium Commissionmoney will not go towards a new centre inSwansea or north Wales. The nature of theproject meant that it would be in Cardiff. It isdifficult sometimes when we are here inCardiff, because we have our constituencyinterests. However, sometimes, as politicians,we must put Welsh interests, and what wewant for Wales and our image in the world, atthe centre of our deliberations, rather thanwhat we say in the local newspapers in ourconstituencies.

Rhaid imi ddweud nad oes diddordeb gennyfyn eich amodau, Val. Weithiau, rhaid innigydnabod nad yw’r prosiectau hyn o fewn einrheolaeth. Dechreuodd prosiect CanolfanMileniwm Cymru ymhell cyn i’r Cynulliadgael ei sefydlu. Canolfan Mileniwm Cymrusydd yn gyfrifol am y prosiect hwnnw achafodd ddigon o gymhelliant i ddechrau’rprosiect a denu arian o Gomisiwn yMileniwm. Peidiwch â chael eich twyllo yn ySiambr hon: os nad aiff y prosiect hwn yn eiflaen, nid aiff yr arian hwnnw gan yComisiwn y Mileniwm tuag at ganolfannewydd yn Abertawe neu ogledd Cymru.Golygai natur y prosiect y byddai yngNghaerdydd. Mae’n anodd weithiau panfyddwn ni yma yng Nghaerdydd, gan fodgennym ein buddiannau yn ein hetholaethau.Fodd bynnag, weithiau, fel gwleidyddion,rhaid inni roi ein buddiannau Cymreig, a’rhyn yr ydym am ei gael i Gymru a’n delweddyn y byd, ynghanol ein penderfyniadau, ynhytrach na’r hyn a ddywedwn yn y papuraunewydd lleol yn ein hetholaethau.

Jonathan Morgan: First, on behalf of theWelsh Conservative Party, I thank theMinister for her statement today, and fortaking a firm lead on this issue. We havebeen concerned in recent months that theMinister for Culture, Sport and the WelshLanguage has not taken a lead, that the WalesMillennium Centre lacked firm leadership,and that the Government’s input has beenslack. By virtue of your taking a lead, ourconfidence has increased, particularly giventhe way you have dealt with this importantmatter openly. We are pleased that the reportcontains such—in many respects—brutalstatistics. The risks are brutal, as yououtlined. I am grateful that you have beenopen and transparent in your approach.

Jonathan Morgan: Yn gyntaf, ar ran PlaidGeidwadol Cymru, hoffwn ddiolch i’rGweinidog am ei datganiad heddiw, ac amroi arweiniad cadarn ar y mater hwn. Buomyn gofidio dros y misoedd diwethaf nad oeddy Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeona’r Gymraeg wedi cymryd yr awenau, boddiffyg arweinyddiaeth gadarn mewnperthynas â Chanolfan Mileniwm Cymru, abod mewnbwn y Llywodraeth wedi bod ynllac. Gan eich bod wedi cymryd yr awenau,mae ein hyder wedi cynyddu, yn arbennig ogofio’r ffordd yr ymdriniasoch â’r materpwysig hwn mewn ffordd mor agored. Yrydym yn falch bod yr adroddiad yncynnwys—mewn sawl ystyr—ystadegau morllym. Mae’r risgiau’n llym, fel ycrybwyllasoch. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi amfod mor agored a chlir yn eich ymagwedd.

We welcome Sir David Rowe-Beddoe’sappointment as chairman of the Wales

Croesawn benodiad Syr David Rowe-Beddoefel cadeirydd Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru.

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Millennium Centre. We believe that hisappointment will ensure further confidence inthe project. We know of Sir David’sbackground and the wealth of experience thathe will bring to the project. Are you in aposition to set specific targets for raisingprivate sector investment? We are concernedthat this funding gap should not be whollyplugged from the public purse, but also fromprivate sector investment opportunities. Wedo not believe that a project of such profoundcultural and economic importance to Cardiffand Wales cannot gain more private sectorinvestment. We are confident and sure thatSir David will be able to pursue thatvigorously.

Credwn y bydd ei benodiad yn ennyn hyderpellach yn y prosiect. Gwyddom am gefndirSyr David a’r cyfoeth o brofiad a ddaw i’rprosiect. A ydych mewn sefyllfa i bennutargedau penodol ar gyfer codi buddsoddiad ysector preifat? Gofidiwn na ddylid llenwi’rbwlch ariannu hwn yn llwyr o bwrs y wlad,ond y dylai gael ei lenwi hefyd o ganlyniad igyfleoedd buddsoddi yn y sector preifat. Nichredwn y gall prosiect o bwysigrwydddiwylliannol ac economaidd mor sylweddol iGaerdydd a Chymru ennill rhagor ofuddsoddiad yn y sector preifat. Yr ydym ynhyderus ac yn sicr y gall Syr David fwrwymlaen â hynny yn egnïol.

We would also like to see further changes inthe Wales Millennium Centre board. Weneed people on the board with backgroundsin managing large-scale projects such as this.We hope for further changes over the nextfew months.

Hoffwn hefyd weld newidiadau pellach ifwrdd Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru. Maeangen pobl ar y bwrdd sydd â phrofiad o reoliprosiectau ar raddfa fawr fel hwn.Gobeithiwn am newidiadau pellach dros yrychydig fisoedd nesaf.

On the issue of fixed costs, we have beenconcerned about the size of the building. Lastyear the building probably could have beenbuilt for £85 million, at about 420,000 squarefoot. It will now be about 320,000 squarefoot, but will cost £92 million. Therefore, weare pleased that the Government hasrecognised the need to fix the costs and forthe Wales Millennium Centre to go out totender, to establish whether a constructioncompany will build it for £92 million.Without fixed costs, there is no confidence,and no agreement to proceed. This is animportant part of our agreement to proceed. Itwould do a great deal to raise confidence, notonly in the Assembly, but also across Walesand among the taxpayers who are beingasked to foot the bill for this importantproject.

O ran costau sefydlog, buom yn gofidio amfaint yr adeilad. Y llynedd, gellid bod wediadeiladu’r adeilad siŵr o fod am £85 miliwn,sef tua 420,000 o droedfeddi sgwâr. Erbynhyn bydd tua 320,000 o droedfeddi sgwâr,ond bydd yn costio £92 miliwn. Felly, yrydym yn falch bod y Llywodraeth wedicydnabod yr angen i wneud y costau ynsefydlog ac i Ganolfan Mileniwm Cymru roigwaith ar dendr, er mwyn sefydlu a allcwmni adeiladu ei adeiladu am £92 miliwn.Heb gostau sefydlog, nid oes unrhyw hyder,nac unrhyw gytundeb i fynd ymlaen. Maehyn yn rhan bwysig o’n cytundeb i fyndymlaen. Byddai’n gwneud llawer iawn iennyn hyder, nid yn unig yn y Cynulliad, ondledled Cymru ac ymhlith y trethdalwyr ygofynnir iddynt dalu’r bil am y prosiectpwysig hwn.

We have been concerned about the WalesMillennium Centre’s revenue figures.Leading members of the arts communitywere surprised at the over-inflated projectedattendance figures of some 450,000 peopleper year and at the percentage capacity thatthe Wales Millennium Centre expects toachieve. We are pleased that the CultureCommittee will analyse those figures andscrutinise them further. We must be sure thatthis project will run effectively once thebuilding is constructed.

Buom yn gofidio am ffigurau refeniwCanolfan Mileniwm Cymru. Yr oedd aelodaublaenllaw o’r gymuned gelfyddydol yn synnuat y ffigurau presenoldeb mawr aragamcanwyd o tua 450,000 o bobl yflwyddyn ac yn synnu at y capasiti canrannoly mae Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru yndisgwyl ei gyflawni. Yr ydym yn falch ybydd y Pwyllgor Diwylliant yn dadansoddi’rffigurau hyn ac yn eu harchwilio ymhellach.Rhaid inni fod yn siŵr y bydd y prosiect hwnyn rhedeg yn effeithiol unwaith yr adeiledir

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yr adeilad.

11:15 a.m.

Consultation is needed with people from thewider arts community, who have theexpertise and knowledge to inform us howsuch a building can be filled with thenecessary number of people to make theproject worthwhile. Such people know andunderstand how to run theatres and othercomparable buildings across the UnitedKingdom. We must ensure them that anypublic subsidy that the Assembly might haveto consider will not divert crucial funds awayfrom Wales’s culture budget. People in northWales and throughout the country, who seethis development taking place in Cardiff,must have confidence that the Governmentand the Assembly will ensure public fundingfor the arts across Wales, in addition to anymoney that will be made available for thisproject.

Mae angen ymgynghori â phobl o’r gymunedgelfyddydol ehangach, sydd â’r arbenigedda’r wybodaeth i ddweud wrthym sut y gellirllenwi adeilad o’r fath gyda’r niferangenrheidiol o bobl i wneud y prosiect yn ungwerth chweil. Mae pobl o’r fath yn gwybodac yn deall sut i gynnal theatrau ac adeiladaucyffelyb eraill ledled y Deyrnas Unedig.Rhaid inni eu sicrhau na fydd unrhyw nawddcyhoeddus y bydd yn rhaid i’r Cynulliad eiystyried efallai yn dargyfeirio arian hollbwysig i ffwrdd o gyllideb ddiwylliannolCymru. Rhaid i bobl yng ngogledd Cymru aledled y wlad, sydd yn gweld y datblygiadhwn yn digwydd yng Nghaerdydd, fod ynhyderus y bydd y Llywodraeth a’r Cynulliadyn sicrhau arian cyhoeddus i’r celfyddydauledled Cymru, yn ogystal ag unrhyw arian afydd ar gael ar gyfer y prosiect hwn.

In closing, Wales has nurtured many world-class artists and we have a world-class operacompany. We have the privilege every yearof seeing our world-class artists performaround the world, doing their nation proud.We must ensure that they have a world-classvenue in Wales, in which to perform. That isa considerable challenge for the Assembly.

Wrth gau, mae Cymru wedi meithrin llawer oartistiaid o’r radd flaenaf, ac mae gennymgwmni opera o’r radd flaenaf. Cawn y fraintbob blwyddyn o weld ein hartistiaid gwychyn perfformio ym mhedwar ban byd, ac maeeu cenedl yn ymfalchïo ynddynt. Rhaid innisicrhau bod ganddynt leoliad o’r radd flaenafyng Nghymru i berfformio ynddo. Maehynny’n dipyn o her i’r Cynulliad.

Edwina Hart: The Minister for Culture,Sport and the Welsh Language has alreadybeen heavily involved in consultation withthe arts community and several discussionshave taken place. Therefore, that puts yourunfair first comment about the Minister intocontext. I was asked to undertake this workby the Minister for Culture because of myfinancial brief. We are taking a two-prongedapproach at this stage.

Edwina Hart: Eisoes bu’r Gweinidog drosDdiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg ynymgynghori llawer â’r gymuned gelfyddydola chynhaliwyd sawl trafodaeth. Felly, maehynny’n rhoi eich sylw cyntaf annheg ynglŷnâ’r Gweinidog yn ei gyd-destun. Gofynnoddy Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant imiymgymryd â’r gwaith hwn oherwydd fy mriffariannol. Yr ydym yn mabwysiaduymagwedd ddeublyg ar yr adeg hon.

I share your concerns about revenue, whichwere also expressed clearly by the CultureCommittee. There is probably not a publicbuilding or arts venue in the UK that does notreceive some element of revenue fundingfrom Government. We must get on top of thisissue. It is better to have honesty at this stage,rather than have to tackle a crisis in a fewyears, when the building has beenconstructed. That is important. Fixed costs

Rhannaf eich pryderon ynglŷn â refeniw, afynegwyd yn glir hefyd gan y PwyllgorDiwylliant. Nid oes un adeilad cyhoeddus nalleoliad celfyddydol yn y DU siŵr o fod nachaiff rywfaint o arian refeniw gan yLlywodraeth. Rhaid inni roi trefn ar y materhwn. Mae’n well bod yn onest ar yr adeghon, yn hytrach na gorfod mynd i’r afael agargyfwng mewn rhai blynyddoedd, pan fyddyr adeilad wedi ei godi. Mae hynny’n

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are essential. We have all learnt that, if youcannot secure the figures for buildingprojects, you have had it.

bwysig. Mae costau sefydlog yn holl bwysig.Yr ydym oll wedi dysgu os na allwchsicrhau’r ffigurau ar gyfer prosiectauadeiladu, mae wedi canu arnoch.

I also welcome Sir David Rowe-Beddoe’sappointment. His background will be usefulin seeking greater private sector investment.He will have the private sector’s confidenceand has many contacts worldwide. Hopefully,he will also make a tremendous difference inraising revenue from such sources. In hisleadership role, I think that he will want toconsider the board. It is a hard-working andindustrious board, but I accept your pointabout the importance of project management.I know that Jenny is also concerned aboutthat. We need somebody who is hands-on,managing the project daily, to ensure that wekeep within the budget.

Croesawaf benodiad Syr David Rowe-Beddoe hefyd. Bydd ei gefndir ynddefnyddiol wrth geisio sicrhau mwy ofuddsoddiad yn y sector preifat. Bydd hyder ysector preifat ganddo hefyd ac mae ganddolawer o gysylltiadau ar draws y byd.Gobeithio hefyd y gwnaiff wahaniaethenfawr wrth godi refeniw o ffynonellau o’rfath. Yn ei rôl fel arweinydd, credaf y byddam ystyried y bwrdd. Mae’n fwrdd sydd yngweithio’n galed a diwyd, ond derbyniaf eichpwynt ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd rheoliprosiectau. Gwn fod Jenny yn gofidio ynglŷnâ hynny hefyd. Mae angen rhywun arnomsydd yn gweithio mewn ffordd ymarferol,gan reoli’r prosiect o ddydd i ddydd, ermwyn sicrhau ein bod yn cadw o fewn ygyllideb.

Your final point was well made. The WelshNational Opera is well-known worldwide. Itis the image of Wales and it markets ourcountry wonderfully. However, we mustrecognise that it has no suitable home inWales. It could just as easily be the Bristolhippodrome opera company or a companyworking from Birmingham. That would be agreat tragedy for our nation.

Yr oedd eich pwynt olaf yn un da. MaeCwmni Opera Cenedlaethol Cymru yngyfarwydd i bobl ledled y byd. Dymaddelwedd Cymru ac mae’n marchnata eingwlad mewn ffordd ragorol. Fodd bynnag,rhaid inni gydnabod nad oes ganddi unrhywgartref addas yng Nghymru. Gallai yr un morhawdd fod yn gwmni opera hippodromeBryste neu’n gwmni sydd yn gweithio ynBirmingham. Byddai hynny’n drasiedi fawri’n gwlad.

Mick Bates: This project presents animmense challenge, which we must meet. Iam sure that you will join me incongratulating the First Minister forannouncing a review of the project somemonths ago. I also record our thanks to JennyRanderson for her work in that review. I alsowelcome Sir David Rowe-Beddoe as chair ofthe Wales Millennium Centre. I am sure thathis expertise will ensure that this project is asuccess.

Mick Bates: Mae’r prosiect hwn yn cynnigher aruthrol, y mae’n rhaid inni ei derbyn. Yrwyf yn siŵr yr ymunwch â mi i longyfarch yPrif Weinidog am gyhoeddi adolygiad o’rprosiect rai misoedd yn ôl. Cofnodaf hefydein diolchiadau i Jenny Randerson am eigwaith yn yr adolygiad hwnnw. Croesawafinnau hefyd Syr David Rowe-Beddoe felcadeirydd Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru. Yrwyf yn siŵr y bydd ei arbenigedd yn sicrhaullwyddiant y prosiect hwn.

The project is a critical step forward forWales’s arts, culture and language, as itdemonstrates our vision and confidence inour country’s future at what is such a darktime in many areas. It will also have asignificant impact on employment andeconomic benefit for Wales and, in particular,

Mae’r prosiect yn gam holl bwysig ymlaen igelfyddydau, diwylliant ac iaith Cymru, ganei fod yn dangos ein gweledigaeth a’n hyderyn nyfodol ein gwlad ar adeg mor dywyllmewn llawer o ardaloedd. Caiff effaithbwysig hefyd ar gyflogaeth a buddeconomaidd Gymru ac, yn arbennig, ar

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on Wales’s image in the world. ddelwedd Cymru yn y byd.

We welcome the fixed price contractapproach and the realistic attitude to thisproject. I am confident that these conditionswill be met as long as you, Minister, retainyour current position. That was meant as acompliment.

Croesawn yr ymagwedd contract prissefydlog a’r agwedd realistig tuag at yprosiect hwn. Yr wyf yn hyderus y bodloniryr amodau hyn cyhyd ag y gallwch chi,Weinidog, gadw eich swydd bresennol.Golygwyd hynny fel canmoliaeth.

Nick Bourne: Be wary of givingcompliments.

Nick Bourne: Gwyliwch rhag canmol.

The Presiding Officer: Order. I am all infavour of compliments to the Minister forFinance and I pay them to her myself,privately, but will you get on with it?

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Yr wyf o blaid canmol yGweinidog dros Gyllid a thalaf deyrnged iddify hun, yn breifat, ond a fyddech cystal âpharhau?

Mick Bates: I was pleased to hear yourresponse to Jonathan Morgan because I agreethat there must be wide consultation with artssocieties to ensure that this project is asuccess. We have heard many times howpoor consultation leads to failure.

Mick Bates: Yr oeddwn yn falch o glywedeich ymateb i Jonathan Morgan oherwyddcytunaf fod yn rhaid ymgynghori’n eang âchymdeithasau celfyddydol er mwyn sicrhaubod y prosiect hwn yn llwyddo. Clywsomdroeon sut y mae ymgynghori gwael ynarwain at fethiant.

Finally, since we announced that this projectwould continue and since a wonderful chairhas been appointed, is there a possibility thatthe private financial support for this projectmay increase from £4 million to £8 million oreven more? If the project exceeded £92million, will that extra private funding meetthat extra cost?

Yn olaf, ers inni gyhoeddi y byddai’r prosiecthwn yn parhau a chan fod cadeirydd gwychwedi ei benodi, a oes posibilrwydd y gall ygefnogaeth ariannol breifat ar gyfer y prosiecthwn gynyddu o £4 miliwn i £8 miliwn neuhyd yn oed yn fwy? Pe bai’r prosiect ynmynd y tu hwnt i £92 miliwn, a fydd yr arianpreifat ychwanegol hwnnw yn talu’r gostychwanegol honno?

Edwina Hart: On Jonathan Morgan’s point,I would be delighted if we could get moreprivate money so that there would not be asmuch public money involved. However, I amdetermined about the cost envelope of theoverall figure and I do not think that I canmove from it. People have asked me ‘what ifthe costs exceeded £100 million?’ My answeris that they cannot. We must have stability inthis project. We have not had it before and itis essential that we stick to the figures. Jennyhas taken a lead on taking this through andhas asked me to calculate these figures.

Edwina Hart: Ar bwynt Jonathan Morgan,byddwn wrth fy modd pe baem yn gallu caelmwy o arian preifat fel na fyddai’n golygugwario cymaint o arian cyhoeddus. Foddbynnag, yr wyf yn benderfynol ynglŷn âtherfyn cost y ffigur cyffredinol ac ni chredafy gallaf wyro oddi wrtho. Mae pobl wedigofyn imi ‘beth os aiff y costau y tu hwnt i£100 miliwn?’ Fy ateb yw na allant. Rhaidinni gael sefydlogrwydd yn y prosiect hwn.Ni chawsom ef o’r blaen ac mae’n hanfodolein bod yn cadw at y ffigurau. Mae Jennywedi cymryd yr awenau ar ganlyn hyn i’wderfyn ac mae wedi gofyn imi gyfrifo’rffigurau hynny.

The Presiding Officer: We are out of timebut I will call the Chair of the CultureCommittee.

Y Llywydd: Daeth ein hamser i ben ondgalwaf ar Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Diwylliant.

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Rhodri Glyn Thomas: I welcome theMinister’s statement and commend her on herastute management of the financial aspects ofthis sensitive issue and the inclusive way inwhich she has tried to move this projectforward. Does she agree that thechairmanship and membership of the boardof the Wales Millennium Centre is a matterfor the board? Will she agree that Sir AlanCox, the former chair, made an importantcontribution to getting this project off theground and ensuring enthusiasm for it? Iwelcome the new chair, Sir David Rowe-Beddoe.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Croesawafddatganiad y Gweinidog ac fe’i canmolaf arei rheolaeth graff dros agweddau ariannol ymater sensitif hwn a’r ffordd gynhwysol yceisiodd ddatblygu’r prosiect hwn. A gytunamai mater i’r bwrdd yw cadeiryddiaeth acaelodaeth bwrdd Canolfan MileniwmCymru? A gytuna y gwnaeth Syr Alan Cox, ycyn gadeirydd, gyfraniad pwysig tuag atddechrau’r gwaith ar y prosiect hwn a sicrhaubrwdfrydedd amdano? Croesawaf ycadeirydd newydd Syr David Rowe-Beddoe.

I welcome the role that the Minister hasasked the Committee to undertake and thatshe has recognised that we do not have theexpertise to give cast iron guarantees aboutthe revenue position of this project, but thatwe are happy to review the figures and,hopefully, be reassured by the board that theyare under control. Will she also reassure usmore firmly—she has partly done so—thatexpenditure on the Wales Millennium Centrewill not affect the expenditure on the artsgenerally in Wales or the budget of the ArtsCouncil of Wales? Does she accept that if wewant the Millennium Centre to reflect theculture of Wales, there may be a need for theAssembly to contribute financially year-on-year to the revenue funding of the centre toensure that it has an outreach programme tothe whole of Wales?

Croesawaf y rôl y mae’r Gweinidog wedigofyn i’r Pwyllgor ymgymryd â hi a’i bodwedi cydnabod nad yw’r arbenigedd gennymi roi sicrwydd cadarn ynglŷn â sefyllfarefeniw y prosiect hwn, ond ein bod ynfodlon adolygu’r ffigurau a, gobeithio, caelein sicrhau gan y bwrdd eu bod o danreolaeth. A wnaiff hi ein sicrhau hefyd ynfwy cadarn—mae wedi gwneud hynny i rywraddau—na fydd gwariant ar GanolfanMileniwm Cymru yn effeithio ar y gwariantar y celfyddydau yn gyffredinol yngNghymru nac ar gyllideb CyngorCelfyddydau Cymru? A yw’n derbyn y byddangen i’r Cynulliad gyfrannu’n ariannolflwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn tuag at arianrefeniw y ganolfan er mwyn sicrhau bodganddi raglen allgyrch i Gymru gyfan, ermwyn adlewyrchu diwylliant Cymru?

Croesawn y ffordd y mae’r Gweinidog wedidelio â’r sefyllfa hon a’r ffordd y mae’rprosiect yn symud yn ei flaen. Byddwn ynedrych yn fanwl ar y ffigurau cyfalaf arefeniw ond hyderaf y gallwn symud ymlaenâ’r prosiect hwn sydd mor bwysig iddiwylliant yng Nghymru.

We welcome the way in which the Ministerhas dealt with this situation and the way inwhich the project is proceeding. We will lookat the capital figures and revenue figures indetail, but I trust that we can proceed withthis project, which is so important to culturein Wales.

Edwina Hart: It is essential that werecognise the implications of the WalesMillennium Centre on the arts in Wales. Wecannot be seen to be taking money from onearea of Wales to ensure that we have theWales Millennium Centre. It is appropriatethat the Committee will be discussing thecentre in the run up to the budget process. Itis an ideal opportunity for it to look at thenature of the arts in Wales and the outreachactivities that could emanate from the WalesMillennium Centre in the context of its

Edwina Hart: Mae’n hanfodol ein bod yncydnabod goblygiadau Canolfan MileniwmCymru i’r celfyddydau yng Nghymru. Niddylwn roi’r argraff ein bod yn cymryd ariano un ardal yng Nghymru er mwyn sicrhau ycawn Ganolfan Mileniwm Cymru. Mae’nbriodol y bydd y Pwyllgor yn trafod yganolfan yn arwain at y broses gyllidebu.Mae’n gyfle delfrydol iddo edrych ar natur ycelfyddydau yng Nghymru a’rgweithgareddau allgyrch a allai ddeillio oGanolfan Mileniwm Cymru yng nghyd-

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request for Jenny Randerson to bring forwardproposals relating to arts budgets in Wales.There has to be recognition that if we wantWales to shine in terms of its artists and todeliver we must examine the resources thatare available. I give that assurance in thatcontext, providing that there are no morenational crises or emergencies.

destun ei gais i Jenny Randerson gyflwynocynigion yn ymwneud â chyllidebau’rcelfyddydau yng Nghymru. Rhaid cydnabod,os ydym am i Gymru lewyrchu o ran eihartistiaid ac er mwyn iddi gyflawni, bod ynrhaid inni archwilio’r adnoddau sydd ar gael.Rhoddaf y sicrwydd hwnnw yn y cyd-destunhwnnw, ar yr amod na fydd rhagor oargyfyngau cenedlaethol.

I value the role that the Committee hasundertaken and the further role that it hasagreed to undertake. The Committeemembers are not experts in this field but theyhad a feel for it and they knew what theissues were during the interviews with therepresentatives of the Wales MillenniumCentre in the Culture Committee. TheCommittee can play an important andvigorous part in getting to the heart of theissue of whether we need any revenue to beallocated. If that is the issue and that is whatwe must do, we will do it. Let us be clear atthe start of the process that it might requirefunds from us.

Gwerthfawrogaf y rôl yr ymgymerodd yPwyllgor â hi a’r rôl bellach y cytunodd iymgymryd â hi. Nid yw aelodau’r Pwyllgoryn arbenigwyr yn y maes hwn ond yr oeddganddynt ymdeimlad ohono a gwyddent bethoedd y materion yn ystod y cyfweliadau âchynrychiolwyr Canolfan Mileniwm Cymruyn y Pwyllgor Diwylliant. Gall y Pwyllgorchwarae rhan bwysig a grymus wrth fynd atwraidd y mater i weld a oedd angen inniddyrannu unrhyw refeniw. Os mai dyna yw’rmater dan sylw, a dyna beth mae’n rhaid inniei wneud, yna gwnawn hynny. Gadewch innifod yn glir o ddechrau’r broses y gallai olygubod yn rhaid inni ddarparu’r arian.

I agree, Rhodri, that the appointment of thechair of the board is a matter for the WalesMillennium Centre. We value the work andthe vibrancy of Alan Cox’s approach. Hewanted the project to shine and go ahead. Wehave to recognise that. We also have torecognise that the decision of the board is amatter of ‘horses for courses’. You would notappoint an artistic director to manage thebuilding of an arts centre; you would appointan expert in building. We have to recognisethe various skills involved.

Cytunaf Rhodri, mai mater i GanolfanMileniwm Cymru yw penodi cadeirydd i’rbwrdd. Gwerthfawrogwn waith ac egniymagwedd Alan Cox. Yr oedd am i’r prosiectlewyrchu a datblygu. Rhaid inni gydnabodhynny. Rhaid inni gydnabod hefyd bodpenderfyniad y bwrdd yn golygu penodi’rperson cymwys yn y maes priodol. Nifyddech yn penodi cyfarwyddwr artistig ireoli’r gwaith o adeiladu canolfancelfyddydau; byddech yn penodi arbenigwradeiladu. Rhaid inni gydnabod y sgiliauamrywiol sydd yn gysylltiedig â hyn.

I thank the Chair of the Culture Committeefor his assistance over the last few weeks andalso the party spokespeople who have beenhelpful in enabling me to deliver thisstatement.

Diolchaf i Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Diwylliantam ei gymorth dros yr ychydig wythnosaudiwethaf ac i lefarwyr y pleidiau hefyd am eucymorth i’m galluogi i gyflwyno’r datganiadhwn.

11:25 a.m.

The Presiding Officer: Before we move on,I have received electronic representations thatI am in danger of not allowing a balancedview to be put forward. Therefore, I will callPeter Law to speak.

Y Llywydd: Cyn inni symud ymlaen,derbyniais sylwadau electronig yn datgan fymod mewn perygl o beidio â gadael i farngytbwys gael ei chyflwyno. Felly, galwaf arPeter Law i siarad.

Peter Law: I am grateful to you for this Peter Law: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am y

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opportunity to speak as I represent anotheropinion, as some will know. It is importantbecause many people in Wales, the poorpeople, see this centre as a cultural albatrossaround their necks. It was originally costed at£75 million and now we are talking about£92 million and possibly £100 million and ablank cheque with a copper bottomguarantee. The Minister for Culture saidrecently that this project must not be allowedto siphon money from the rest of Wales. Thatis exactly what it will do. The £25 million orso that was going into this will siphon moneyfrom the rest of Wales.

cyfle hwn i siarad gan fy mod yn cynrychiolibarn arall, fel y gŵyr rhai ohonoch. Mae’nbwysig oherwydd gwêl llawer o bobl yngNghymru, y bobl dlawd, y ganolfan hon felalbatros diwylliannol o amgylch eu gyddfau.Cost wreiddiol y ganolfan oedd £75 miliwnond erbyn hyn mae’n £92 miliwn ac o bosiblyn £100 miliwn gyda siec wag â gwarantddibynadwy. Dywedodd y Gweinidog drosDdiwylliant yn ddiweddar na ddylid caniatáui’r prosiect hwn sugno arian o weddillCymru. Dyna’n union beth a wna. Bydd y£25 miliwn neu oddeutu hynny a oedd ar gaelar gyfer hyn yn sugno arian o weddill Cymru.

I appreciate that at least two Secretaries ofState in the Westminster Government made acommitment to support this and that £2million was given by the First Minister forthe Millennium Centre to assess the situation.Surely, having been given the £2 million, itshould have stuck to the £75 million costenvelope and not come back here requiringanother £17 million, while people aresuffering from social deprivation andinequality in Wales. That is the point. Whatdoes this mean for the people of Ceredigion,Rhondda, Denbigh, Caernarfon, those whosleep rough on the streets and myconstituents in Blaenau Gwent? Thousands ofpeople will never see it let alone sit in it. Iunderstand that there is £27 million availablefrom the Lottery Commission and that isimportant for Wales. However, there must bereality. Until now we have been living in avirtual reality—

Gwerthfawrogaf fod o leiaf dauYsgrifennydd Gwladol yn Llywodraeth SanSteffan wedi ymrwymo i gefnogi hyn a bodPrif Weinidog Cymru wedi rhoi £2 filiwn argyfer Canolfan y Mileniwm i asesu’r sefyllfa.Does bosib, ar ôl cael y £2 filiwn, y dylai fodwedi glynu at y £75 miliwn a oedd ar gael ynhytrach na dod yn ôl yma i ofyn am £17miliwn arall, tra bod pobl yn dioddef oamddifadedd cymdeithasol ac anghyfartaleddyng Nghymru. Dyna’r pwynt. Beth mae hynyn ei olygu i bobl Ceredigion, Rhondda,Dinbych, Caernarfon, y rheini sydd yn cysguar y strydoedd a’m hetholwyr ym MlaenauGwent? Ni fydd miloedd o bobl byth yn eigweld heb sôn am eistedd ynddi. Deallaf fod£27 miliwn ar gael gan Gomisiwn y Loteri acmae hynny’n bwysig i Gymru. Fodd bynnag,rhaid cael realiti. Hyd yn hyn buom yn bywmewn rhithwir—

The Presiding Officer: Order. You are indanger of making a speech and you are notthe lead speaker in your party group. Thelead speaker expressed a similar view toyours. I ask you to draw to a conclusion.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Yr ydych mewn perygl owneud araith ac nid chi yw prif siaradwrgrŵp eich plaid. Mynegodd y prif siaradwrfarn debyg i’ch un chi. Gofynnaf ichi ddod iben.

Peter Law: I have a minority view and Iappreciate your letting me speak. I will windup now because I will speak to the pressoutside later. The people of Wales deserveequality and a fair deal. We should at leastcap this scheme—

Peter Law: Mae gennyf farn leiafrifol agwerthfawrogaf eich bod yn gadael imisiarad. Gwnaf ddirwyn i ben yn awroherwydd siaradaf â’r wasg y tu allan ynddiweddarach. Mae pobl Cymru yn haedducydraddoldeb a chwarae teg. Dylem o leiafgeisio capio’r cynllun hwn—

The Presiding Officer: Order. I haveallowed you to make your point. This is not adebate. These contributions should bequestions on the statement. I have allowed

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Caniateais ichi wneudeich pwynt. Nid dadl yw hon. Dylai’rcyfraniadau hyn fod yn gwestiynau ar ydatganiad. Caniateais gwestiynau estynedig

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extended questions by one speaker from yourgroup whose position was not inconsistentwith yours.

gan un siaradwr o’ch grŵp nad oedd ei farnyn anghyson â’ch un chi.

Peter Law: I ask that the Wales MillenniumCentre committee cap this scheme at £75million.

Peter Law: Gofynnaf i bwyllgor CanolfanMileniwm Cymru gapio’r cynllun hwn ar £75miliwn.

Edwina Hart: If you ask it to cap it, you willsay goodbye to the scheme, to £27 million, tothe public money that has been invested.There is not a blank cheque for this scheme. Ifind that comment quite insulting. I have setout in words of one syllable the financialarrangements and tests that I envisage. Thereis not a blank cheque. This is a realisation ofthe current situation. It is not ideal that we areonly at this stage. It would have been nice ifthis project had been done and dusted 12months ago, but it was not. That is life. Nowthat we have decided to get a real grip onthis, we know where we are going.

Edwina Hart: Os gofynnwch iddo ei gapio,gallwch ffarwelio â’r cynllun, â £27 miliwn,â’r arian cyhoeddus a fuddsoddwyd. Nid oessiec wag ar gyfer y cynllun hwn. Teimlaf fody sylw hwnnw yn eithaf sarhaus. Nodaismewn geiriau unsill y trefniadau ariannol a’rprofion/amodau a ragwelaf. Nid oes siec wag.Dyma realiti’r sefyllfa bresennol. Nid yw’nddelfrydol mai dim ond ar y cam hwn yrydym. Byddai wedi bod yn braf pe bai’rprosiect hwn wedi ei orffen 12 mis yn ôl, ondnid oedd. Fel yna y mae pethau. Gan ein bodwedi penderfynu cael gafael bendant arbethau erbyn hyn, gwyddom i ble yr ydym ynmynd.

When I was a trade union official I wasprivileged to be involved with many peoplefrom many companies across the world. Iused to think that they looked at Wales interms of cheap labour costs and so on andthat that was why they came to Wales. Therewere elements of that but it was also becausethey knew where Wales was. They knewbecause of the Welsh National Operacompany. When they were sitting in someAmerican town or city listening to the WNO,they could tell that it was a prestigiouscompany. That is how they knew aboutWales and were persuaded to visit sites inWales.

Pan oeddwn yn swyddog undeb llafur cefaisy fraint o ymwneud â llawer o bobl o lawer ogwmnïau ledled y byd. Arferwn feddwl eubod yn ystyried Cymru yn nhermau costaullafur rhad ac yn y blaen ac mai dyna pam ydaethant i Gymru. Yr oedd hynny’n wir iraddau ond yr oedd hefyd am eu bod yngwybod ble yr oedd Cymru. Gwyddentoherwydd Cwmni Opera CenedlaetholCymru. Pan oeddent yn eistedd mewn rhywdref neu ddinas yn America yn gwrando arGwmni Opera Cenedlaethol Cymru, yroeddent yn ymwybodol ei fod yn gwmniblaenllaw. Dyna sut y gwyddent am Gymru asut y cawsant eu darbwyllo i ymweld âsafleoedd yng Nghymru.

We must recognise that companies such asthe WNO, and the arts and culture of Wales,are key to our economic development. That iswhat will bring prosperity to areas such asCeredigion and the Valleys. We cannot benarrow-minded and think that if it does nothappen in Cardiff, it will happen somewhereelse and that only that area will benefit. Thatwill not happen. This statement is aboutbeing realistic. The centre will not go aheadif it goes beyond the cost envelope.

Rhaid inni gydnabod bod cwmnïau fel OperaCenedlaethol Cymru, a chelfyddydau adiwylliant Cymru, yn allweddol i’ndatblygiad economaidd. Dyna beth ddaw âffyniant i ardaloedd fel Ceredigion a’rCymoedd. Ni allwn fod â meddwl cul achredu os na fydd hyn yn digwydd yngNghaerdydd, y bydd yn digwydd yn rhywlearall ac mai dim ond yr ardal honno fydd ynelwa ar hynny. Ni fydd hynny’n digwydd.Mae’r datganiad hwn yn sôn am fod ynrealistig. Nid aiff y ganolfan yn ei blaen osaiff y tu hwnt i drothwy’r gost.

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Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order

Jonathan Morgan: Point of order. I raisethis under Standing Order No. 9.10, relatingto the business of Subject Committees. Asyou will be aware, Presiding Officer, theEducation and Lifelong Learning Committeeis undertaking a review of higher education.During early June, we are due to attendmeetings in Scotland and Northern Ireland, inorder to augment that review. Those areimportant meetings and will have animportant contribution to make to the review.However, yesterday, Government Ministerstried to persuade the Committee to postponethese meetings, so disrupting its business,because of the pending Westminster generalelection. I seek your ruling on this matter,because I feel strongly that the Assembly’sbusiness, and that of the Subject Committees,needs to continue without being hindered bythe pending general election at Westminster.

Jonathan Morgan: Pwynt o drefn. Codafhyn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 9.10, sydd ynymwneud â busnes y Pwyllgorau Pwnc. Fel ygwyddoch, Lywydd, mae’r Pwyllgor Addysga Dysgu Gydol Oes yn cynnal adolygiad oaddysg uwch. Ar ddechrau Mehefin, byddwnyn mynychu cyfarfodydd yn yr Alban aGogledd Iwerddon, er mwyn ategu’radolygiad hwnnw. Maent yn gyfarfodyddpwysig a bydd ganddynt gyfraniad pwysigi’w wneud i’r adolygiad. Fodd bynnag, ddoe,ceisiodd Gweinidogion y Llywodraethddarbwyllo’r Pwyllgor i ohirio’r cyfarfodyddhynny, gan amharu ar ei fusnes, oherwyddetholiad cyffredinol arfaethedig San Steffan.Ceisiaf eich dyfarniad ar y mater hwn,oherwydd teimlaf yn gryf fod angen i fusnesy Cynulliad, a busnes y Pwyllgorau Pwnc,barhau heb gael ei rwystro gan yr etholiadcyffredinol arfaethedig yn San Steffan.

Alun Pugh: Further to that, that was anabsurd point of order because the dates forthe visits have not yet been fixed. All weasked for yesterday was that some commonsense be applied in determining the dates.

Alun Pugh: Ymhellach i hynny, yr oeddhwnnw’n bwynt o drefn hurt oherwydd niphenderfynwyd ar y dyddiadau ar gyfer yrymweliadau eto. Y cyfan y gofynasomamdano ddoe oedd i rywfaint o synnwyrcyffredin gael ei arddel wrth benderfynu ar ydyddiadau.

Gareth Jones: Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnwo drefn, cytunaf â’r hyn a ddywedoddJonathan. Mae llawer o wastraffu amser yndigwydd ar hyn o bryd wrth sôn am etholiadcyffredinol—cyfeiriasoch at hynny y boreyma, Lywydd. Mae hynny bellach yndigwydd mewn Pwyllgor sydd â phethau hollbwysig i’w trafod. Gallaf felly ond gefnogi’rhyn a ddywedodd Jonathan Morgan, gan fodyn rhaid i’r Pwyllgor fwrw ymlaen â’rrhaglen y mae yn ei hystyried, heb edrychdros Glawdd Offa at rywbeth a allaiddigwydd neu beidio.

Gareth Jones: Further to that point of order,I agree with what Jonathan said. Much timeis wasted at present in talking about a generalelection—you referred to that this morning,Presiding Officer. That is now happening in aCommittee that has very important issues todiscuss. Therefore, I can only support whatJonathan Morgan said, because theCommittee must proceed with theprogramme that it is considering, withoutlooking over Offa’s Dyke to something thatmay or may not happen.

The Minister for Education and LifelongLearning (Jane Davidson): Further to thatpoint of order, I am sorry that the Chair of theCommittee is not in the Chamber to respondto the concerns expressed. As Minister forEducation and Lifelong Learning, what I saidin Committee yesterday was that we must askour colleagues in Scotland and Northern

Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu GydolOes (Jane Davidson): Ymhellach i’r pwynthwnnw o drefn, mae’n ddrwg gennyf nad ywCadeirydd y Pwyllgor yn y Siambr i ymatebi’r pryderon a fynegwyd. Fel y Gweinidogdros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, yr hyn addywedais yn y Pwyllgor ddoe oedd bod ynrhaid inni ofyn i’n cyd-Aelodau yn yr Alban

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Ireland whether or not the dates we hadoriginally chosen for the meetings are stillappropriate in light of any considerationsraised by other Members. The Committeethen agreed that the clerk would consider,with colleagues in Scotland and NorthernIreland, whether or not the visits should goahead on the initial putative dates or whetherthey should be postponed for a few weeks.The Chair then asked the Committee clerk toconsider dates, and the whole Committeeconfirmed that it wants to ensure that themeetings go ahead in the timetable for thereview. I reject the suggestion that I, asMinister, said that the timetable should be putback.

a Gogledd Iwerddon a yw’r dyddiadau addewisasom yn wreiddiol ar gyfer ycyfarfodydd yn briodol o hyd yng ngoleuniunrhyw ystyriaethau a godwyd gan yrAelodau eraill. Yna cytunodd y Pwyllgor ybyddai’r clerc yn ystyried, gyda chyd-Aelodau yn yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon, addylai’r ymweliadau fynd yn eu blaen ar ydyddiadau tybiedig cychwynnol ai peidio neua ddylid eu gohirio am rai wythnosau. Ynagofynnodd y Cadeirydd i glerc y Pwyllgorystyried dyddiadau, a chadarnhaodd yPwyllgor cyfan ei fod am sicrhau bod ycyfarfodydd yn mynd yn eu blaen o fewn yramserlen ar gyfer yr adolygiad. Gwrthodaf yrawgrym fy mod, fel Gweinidog, wedi dweudy dylid gohirio’r amserlen.

Huw Lewis: Further to that point of order,Jonathan is wasting Plenary time. We arediscussing dates of meetings with colleaguesfrom Scotland and Northern Ireland that theCommittee has not yet fixed, in relation tothe date of a general election that has notbeen fixed either. This is somewhat of ariddle within an enigma. The Committeemade a sensible decision, with which it wascontent and this, therefore, does not need tobe discussed in Plenary.

Huw Lewis: Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw odrefn, mae Jonathan yn gwastraffu amser yCyfarfod Llawn. Yr ydym yn trafoddyddiadau cyfarfodydd â chyd-Aelodau o’rAlban a Gogledd Iwerddon nad yw’rPwyllgor wedi eu pennu eto, mewn perthynasâ dyddiad etholiad cyffredinol nas pennwydychwaith. Mae hyn yn rhywfaint o bos ofewn enigma. Gwnaeth y Pwyllgorbenderfyniad synhwyrol ac mae’n fodlonarno ac felly, nid oes angen trafod hyn mewnCyfarfod Llawn.

The Presiding Officer: The point of orderwas raised out of a general concern about theposition of the Assembly in relation to aWestminster election. A Subject Committee’stimetable is not a matter for me, it is a matterfor the Chair, in consultation with theMinister and its members. I am sure that theCommittee Chair—who is now in theChamber—is fully able to discuss this matterwith the Minister and the clerk.

Y Llywydd: Codwyd y pwynt o drefn obryder cyffredinol ynglŷn â sefyllfa’rCynulliad mewn perthynas ag etholiad ynSan Steffan. Nid mater i mi yw amserlenPwyllgor Pwnc. Mae’n fater i’r Cadeirydddrwy ymgynghori â’r Gweinidog a’i aelodau.Yr wyf yn siŵr y gall Cadeirydd yPwyllgor—sydd yn y Siambr erbyn hyn—drafod y mater hwn yn llawn gyda’rGweinidog a’r clerc.

Cynog Dafis: Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw odrefn, hoffwn nodi ein bod wedi cynnaltrafodaeth ar y mater a chafwydawgrymiadau na ddylem ymweld â GogleddIwerddon a’r Alban ar y dyddiadau afwriadwyd yn wreiddiol, ond nad oedd wedieu pennu’n derfynol. Penderfynodd yPwyllgor y dylai’r ymweliadau ddigwydd aradeg gyfleus i bawb, yng Nghymru, GogleddIwerddon a’r Alban. Yr ydym yn benderfynolo ymweld mewn da bryd fel y gellirdefnyddio’r wybodaeth a gasglwn yn yradolygiad.

Cynog Dafis: Further to that point of order, Iwould like to note that we discussed thismatter and it was suggested that we shouldnot visit Northern Ireland and Scotland on thedates originally intended, but which had notbeen ultimately determined. The Committeedecided that the visits should take place at aconvenient time for all concerned, in Wales,Northern Ireland and Scotland. We aredetermined to visit in good time so that theinformation that we gather can be used in thereview.

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11:35 a.m.

Y Llywydd: Diolch i Gadeirydd y Pwyllgoram ei sylwadau. Nid oes etholiad ar gyfer ySiambr hon, fel y dywedais yn gynharach, acyr wyf yn awyddus i’r Cynulliad barhau â’iwaith fel arfer.

The Presiding Officer: I thank the Chair ofthe Committee for his comments. There is noelection for this Chamber, as I said earlier,and I am eager for the Assembly to proceedwith its work as usual.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Pwynt o drefn. Codafhyn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.30 argwestiynau llafar. Codais y pwynt hwn fwynag unwaith. Ar ôl cwestiwn pump i’rGweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, nid oeddcyfle ar gyfer cwestiwn atodol gan Aelodau,er bod gennyf fater etholaethol i’w godi. Nidwyf yn beirniadu’r Llywydd. Gwn ei bod yneithriadol o anodd i reoli trafodion y Siambr,ond dylid sicrhau bod cwestiynau atodol ibob cwestiwn a bod modd i’r Llywydd reoliamleiredd Gweinidogion.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Point of order. I raisethis under Standing Order No. 6.30 on oralquestions. I have raised this point more thanonce. Following question five to the Ministerfor Environment, there was no opportunityfor Members to ask a supplementaryquestion, although I had a constituencymatter to raise. I am not criticising thePresiding Officer. I know that it is extremelydifficult to control Chamber proceedings, butit should be ensured that there aresupplementary questions to every questionand that the Presiding Officer can control theverbosity of Ministers.

Y Llywydd: Diolch i Rhodri Glyn Thomasam ei sicrwydd nad yw’n beirniadu’rLlywydd. Derbyniaf hynny yn yr ysbryd y’icyflwynwyd. Tynnais sylw at y mater hwnddydd Iau diwethaf pan oedd atebion ganWeinidogion yn golygu nad oedd modd iAelod, heblaw’r Aelod a gyflwynodd ycwestiwn i’w godi’n llafar, i ofyn cwestiwnatodol.

The Presiding Officer: I thank Rhodri GlynThomas for his assurance that he is notcriticising the Presiding Officer. I accept thatin the spirit in which it was presented. I drewattention to this matter last Thursday whenreplies from Ministers meant that it was notpossible for a Member, apart from theMember who had tabled the oral question, toraise a supplementary question.

Gofynnaf i Weinidogion, ac ni allaf wneudmwy na hynny, i ystyried a yw’n briodol iwneud datganiadau polisi sylweddol yn yCyfarfod Llawn neu a ydynt yn fwy addasi’w gwneud mewn Pwyllgor. Os ydynt i’wgwneud mewn Cyfarfod Llawn, dylent fod arffurf datganiad yn hytrach nag mewn atebioni gwestiynau. Mae hynny’n hwyluso pethau osafbwynt yr ymateb gan Aelodau, sydd o’rpwys mwyaf i mi. Mae’r sesiwn gwestiynauyn bennaf ar gyfer Aelodau o bob plaid i ofyncwestiynau. Mae cydbwysedd rhwng ypleidiau o ran gofyn cwestiynau yn fater oddiddordeb i’r sawl sydd yn y Gadair.

I ask Ministers, and I can do no more thanthat, to consider whether it is appropriate tomake substantial policy statements in Plenaryor whether it would be more appropriate todo so in Committee. If they do so in Plenary,it should be in the form of a statement ratherthan in answers to questions. That facilitatesmatters with regard to the response fromMembers, which concerns me most. Themain purpose of the question and answersession is for Members from every party toask questions. The balance between theparties in terms of asking questions is ofconcern to the person in the Chair.

Nick Bourne: Point of order. This relates toguidelines that I think have been issued bythe Assembly and not yet published, relatingto the conduct of Assembly business beforethe general election. I appreciate that we donot know the date of the general election, but

Nick Bourne: Pwynt o drefn. Mae hyn ynymwneud â chanllawiau a gyflwynwyd, fegredaf, gan y Cynulliad, ond nas cyhoeddwydeto, sydd yn ymwneud â’r ffordd y cynhelirbusnes y Cynulliad cyn yr etholiadcyffredinol. Gwerthfawrogaf na wyddom

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it will be while the Assembly is sitting. SirRichard Wilson has indicated thatWestminster has guidlines as to whatGovernment announcements can be made inthe period before a general election. We arein new territory, but it would be helpful, FirstMinister, if these guidelines could be issuedto all Members so that we are aware of whatcan and what cannot happen in that period.

ddyddiad yr etholiad cyffredinol, ond byddyn ystod eisteddiad y Cynulliad. Nododd SyrRichard Wilson fod gan San Steffanganllawiau o ran pa gyhoeddiadau’rLlywodraeth y gellir eu gwneud yn y cyfnodcyn etholiad cyffredinol. Mae hwn yn faesnewydd inni, ond byddai’n ddefnyddiol, BrifWeinidog, pe gellid cyflwyno’r canllawiauhyn i bob Aelod fel ein bod yn ymwybodolo’r hyn a all ddigwydd a’r hyn na allddigwydd yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw.

The Presiding Officer: We will consider thismatter. I understand that guidelines havebeen prepared about the use of the AssemblyChamber, for example, and there are alsoguidelines to Assembly officials. That couldalso affect the position of support staff.

Y Llywydd: Byddwn yn ystyried y materhwn. Deallaf y paratowyd canllawiau ynglŷnâ defnyddio Siambr y Cynulliad, erenghraifft, ac mae canllawiau hefyd ar gael argyfer swyddogion y Cynulliad. Gallai hynnyeffeithio ar sefyllfa’r staff cymorth hefyd.

The First Minister (Rhodri Morgan):Further to that point of order, I believe thatthose guidelines will be made available, butnot before the election is called, because toissue them would be to presume the date ofthe general election. The rules for bothAssembly Ministers and officials are beingprepared for what is, as Nick has accepted, adifficult situation because it is the first everpost-devolution general election. As soon asthe general election is called, those rules willbecome public knowledge.

Prif Weinidog Cymru (Rhodri Morgan):Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, credaf ybydd y canllawiau hynny ar gael, ond nid cyny gelwir etholiad, oherwydd byddai eucyflwyno yn golygu rhagdybio dyddiad yretholiad cyffredinol. Caiff y rheolau ar gyferGweinidogion y Cynulliad a’r swyddogion euparatoi ar gyfer yr hyn sydd, fel y derbynioddNick, yn sefyllfa anodd gan mai dyma’retholiad cyffredinol cyntaf ers datganoli. Cyngynted ag y gelwir yr etholiad cyffredinol,daw’r rheolau hynny yn hysbys i bawb.

The Presiding Officer: I have been advisedby the Clerk that guidelines have been issuedgenerally, and made available to Members,about the use of Assembly property. Thatapplies not only to Westminster elections buteven more so to our election which will be ona fixed date in 2003.

Y Llywydd: Fe’m cynghorwyd gan y Clercbod canllawiau ynglŷn â defnyddio eiddo’rCynulliad wedi eu cyflwyno’n gyffredinol,a’u bod ar gael i’r Aelodau. Mae hynny’nberthnasol nid yn unig i etholiadau SanSteffan ond hyd yn oed yn fwy felly i’nhetholiad ni a fydd ar ddyddiad penodedig yn2003.

Nick Bourne: Further to that point of order,my point was not about Assembly property,though that is also important. It is in relationto Government announcements in the periodbefore a general election. I understand,though I stand to be corrected, that theseguidelines are prepared. They are not in draftform. We received an indication fromWestminster that they are prepared.Therefore I cannot see why they cannot beissued to Members. You are right, FirstMinister, that we are in virgin territory but itis important that all Members are aware ofthe rules and goalposts. If the rules are ready

Nick Bourne: Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw odrefn, nid oedd fy mhwynt yn ymwneud ageiddo’r Cynulliad, er bod hynny’n bwysighefyd. Mae mewn perthynas âchyhoeddiadau’r Llywodraeth yn y cyfnodcyn etholiad cyffredinol. Deallaf, er y syrthiafar fy mai os wyf yn anghywir, fod ycanllawiau hyn wedi eu paratoi. Nid ydynt arffurf ddrafft. Derbyniasom awgrym gan SanSteffan eu bod wedi eu paratoi. Felly, ni allafweld pam na ellir eu rhoi i’r Aelodau. Yrydych yn iawn, Brif Weinidog, ein bod yntorri tir newydd ond mae’n bwysig fod pobAelod yn ymwybodol o’r rheolau a’r

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for issuing to Members I cannot see anyreason why that cannot be done.

amodau. Os yw’r rheolau yn barod i’w rhoii’r Aelodau, ni allaf weld unrhyw reswm drosbeidio â gwneud hynny.

The Presiding Officer: I believe that theLeader of the Welsh Conservatives may bereferring to guidance to the Executive. I haveno responsibility for anything that emanatesfrom Westminster, except for any speechesthat I may make in the second Chamber.

Y Llywydd: Credaf fod ArweinyddCeidwadwyr Cymru yn cyfeirio efallai atganllawiau i’r Weithrediaeth. Nid wyf yngyfrifol am unrhyw beth sydd yn deillio oSan Steffan, ar wahân i unrhyw areithiau awnaf yn yr ail Siambr efallai.

Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion

The Presiding Officer: In the absence of theMinister for Assembly Business, I call JaneDavidson to propose the motion.

Y Llywydd: Yn absenoldeb y Trefnydd,galwaf ar Jane Davidson i gynnig y cynnig.

The Minister for Education and LifelongLearning (Jane Davidson): I propose that

Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu GydolOes (Jane Davidson): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly, under Standing OrderNo. 6.16, brings forward the no-named daymotion tabled on 3 April 2001 on approvingthe three-month timetable of Assemblybusiness.

y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, o dan ReolSefydlog Rhif 6.16, yn dwyn gerbron y cynnigheb ddyddiad trafod a gyflwynwyd ar 3 Ebrill2001 ar gymeradwyo’r amserlen tri mis argyfer busnes y Cynulliad.

Andrew Davies referred to the fact that thisprocedural motion would be proposed todayin his business statement on Tuesday.

Cyfeiriodd Andrew Davies at y ffaith y cai’rcynnig trefniadol hwn ei gynnig heddiw yn eiddatganiad busnes ddydd Mawrth.

Cynnig: O blaid 46, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0.Motion: For 46, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorButler, RosemaryCairns, AlunChapman, ChristineDafis, CynogDavidson, JaneDavies, DavidDavies, GeraintDavies, RonEdwards, RichardEssex, SueEvans, DelythFeld, ValGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamGregory, JaniceGwyther, ChristineHancock, BrianHart, Edwina

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Hutt, JaneJarman, PaulineJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, PeterLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMelding, DavidMorgan, RhodriNeagle, LynnePugh, AlunRanderson, JennyRogers, PeterRyder, JanetSinclair, KarenThomas, GwendaThomas, Owen JohnThomas, Rhodri GlynWilliams, KirstyWilliams, Phil

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion adopted.

Cymeradwyo’r Amserlen Tri Mis ar gyfer Busnes y CynulliadApproval of the Three-month Timetable of Assembly Business

The Minister for Education and LifelongLearning (Jane Davidson): I propose that

Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu GydolOes (Jane Davidson): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly notes the proposedthree-month timetable of Assembly businesslaid in the Table Office on 3 April 2001,under Standing Order No. 5.1.

y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn nodi’r amserlentri mis arfaethedig ar gyfer busnes yCynulliad a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwynoar 3 Ebrill 2001, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif5.1.

Cynnig: O blaid 46, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0.Motion: For 46, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorButler, RosemaryCairns, AlunChapman, ChristineDafis, CynogDavidson, JaneDavies, DavidDavies, GeraintDavies, RonEdwards, RichardEssex, SueEvans, DelythFeld, Val

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German, MichaelGraham, WilliamGregory, JaniceGwyther, ChristineHancock, BrianHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJarman, PaulineJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, PeterLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMelding, DavidMorgan, RhodriNeagle, LynnePugh, AlunRanderson, JennyRogers, PeterRyder, JanetSinclair, KarenThomas, GwendaThomas, Owen JohnThomas, Rhodri GlynWilliams, KirstyWilliams, Phil

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion adopted.

Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo GorchmynionComposite Motion: Approval of Orders

Y Llywydd: Cynigir y cynnig hwn o danReol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25, ac felly nichynhelir dadl arno.

The Presiding Officer: This motion isproposed under Standing Order No. 22.25,and therefore it is not subject to debate.

The Minister for Education and LifelongLearning (Jane Davidson): I propose that

Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu GydolOes (Jane Davidson): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly, acting underStanding Order No. 22.25,

y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, gan weithredu odan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25,

approves the National Health Service(Optical Charges and Payments) and(General Ophthalmic Services) (Amendment)(No.2) (Wales) Regulations 2001 laid in theTable Office on 14 March 2001;

yn cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r GwasanaethIechyd Gwladol (Ffioedd a ThaliadauOptegol) a (Gwasanaethau OffthalmigCyffredinol) (Diwygio) (Rhif 2) (Cymru)2001, a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar14 Mawrth 2001;

considers the report of the LegislationCommittee which has not identified anymatters for concern in the draft Order, theNational Health Service (Optical Chargesand Payments) and (General OphthalmicServices) (Amendment) (No.2) (Wales)

yn ystyried adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deddfaunad yw wedi nodi unrhyw fater sy’n peripryder yn y Gorchymyn drafft, Rheoliadau’rGwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Ffioedd aThaliadau Optegol) a (GwasanaethauOffthalmig Cyffredinol) (Diwygio) (Rhif 2)

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Regulations 2001, laid in the Table Office on20 March 2001;

(Cymru) 2001, a osodwyd yn y SwyddfaGyflwyno ar 20 Mawrth 2001;

approves the Valuation Tribunals(Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2001 laidin the Table Office on 6 March 2001;

yn cymeradwyo Rheoliadau TribiwnlysoeddPrisio (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2001, a osodwydyn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 6 Mawrth 2001;

considers the report of the LegislationCommittee which has not identified anymatters for concern in the draft Order, theValuation Tribunals (Amendment) (Wales)Regulations 2001, laid in the Table Office on20 March 2001;

yn ystyried adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deddfaunad yw wedi nodi unrhyw fater sy’n peripryder yn y Gorchymyn drafft, RheoliadauTribiwnlysoedd Prisio (Diwygio) (Cymru)2001, a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar20 Mawrth 2001;

approves the Coffee Extracts and ChicoryExtracts (Wales) Regulations 2001, laid inthe Table Office on 21 March 2001;

yn cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Echdynion Coffiac Echdynion Sicori (Cymru) 2001, aosodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 21Mawrth 2001;

considers the report of the LegislationCommittee which has not identified anymatters for concern in the draft Order, theCoffee Extracts and Chicory Extracts (Wales)Regulations 2001, laid in the Table Office on27 March 2001 and the Memorandum ofCorrections laid in Table Office on 28 March2001;

yn ystyried adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deddfaunad yw wedi nodi unrhyw fater sy’n peripryder yn y Gorchymyn drafft, RheoliadauEchdynion Coffi ac Echdynion Sicori(Cymru) 2001, a osodwyd yn y SwyddfaGyflwyno ar 27 Mawrth 2001 a’rMemorandwm Cywiriadau a osodwyd yn ySwyddfa Gyflwyno ar 28 Mawrth 2001.

approves the Ancient Monuments(Applications for Scheduled MonumentConsent) (Welsh Forms and Particulars)Regulations 2001, laid in the Table Office on14 March 2001; and:

yn cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Henebion(Ceisiadau am Gydsyniad HenebGofrestredig) (Ffurflenni a ManylionCymraeg) 2001, a osodwyd yn y SwyddfaGyflwyno ar 14 Mawrth 2001; ac

considers the report of the LegislationCommittee which has not identified anymatters for concern in the draft Order, theAncient Monuments (Applications forScheduled Monument Consent) (Welsh Formsand Particulars) Regulations 2001, laid inthe Table Office on 20 March 2001.

yn ystyried adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deddfaunad yw wedi nodi unrhyw fater sy’n peripryder yn y Gorchymyn drafft, RheoliadauHenebion (Ceisiadau am Gydsyniad HenebGofrestredig) (Ffurflenni a ManylionCymraeg) 2001, a osodwyd yn y SwyddfaGyflwyno ar 20 Mawrth 2001.

Cynnig: O blaid 45, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0.Motion: For 45, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorButler, RosemaryCairns, AlunChapman, ChristineDafis, CynogDavidson, Jane

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Davies, DavidDavies, GeraintDavies, RonEssex, SueEvans, DelythFeld, ValGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamGregory, JaniceGwyther, ChristineHancock, BrianHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJarman, PaulineJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, PeterLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMelding, DavidMorgan, RhodriNeagle, LynnePugh, AlunRanderson, JennyRogers, PeterRyder, JanetSinclair, KarenThomas, GwendaThomas, Owen JohnThomas, Rhodri GlynWilliams, KirstyWilliams, Phil

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion adopted.

Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Deddf Cefn Gwlad a Hawliau Tramwy 2000(Cychwyn Rhif 2) (Cymru) 2001

The Approval of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000(Commencement No. 2) (Wales) Order 2001

The Presiding Officer: I have selectedamendment 1 in the name of WilliamGraham to the first motion.

Y Llywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1yn enw William Graham i’r cynnig cyntaf.

The Minister for Environment (SueEssex): I propose that

Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd (SueEssex): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol

considers the principle of the Countrysideand Right of Way Act 2000 (CommencementNo. 2) (Wales) Order 2001, laid in the TableOffice on 7 March 2001.

yn ystyried egwyddor Gorchymyn Deddf CefnGwlad a Hawliau Tramwy 2000 (CychwynRhif 2) (Cymru) 2001, a osodwyd yn ySwyddfa Gyflwyno ar 7 Mawrth 2001.

I propose that Cynigiaf fod

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the National Assembly y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol

considers the report of the LegislationCommittee which has not identified underStanding Order No. 11.5 any matters forconcern in the draft Order, the Countrysideand Right of Way Act 2000 (CommencementNo. 2) (Wales) Order 2001, laid in the TableOffice on 20 March 2001; and

yn ystyried adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deddfaunad yw wedi nodi unrhyw fater sy’n peripryder dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 11.5 yn ygorchymyn drafft, Gorchymyn Deddf CefnGwlad a Hawliau Tramwy 2000 (CychwynRhif 2) (Cymru) 2001, a osodwyd yn ySwyddfa Gyflwyno ar 20 Mawrth 2001; ac

approves that the Order is made inaccordance with the draft laid in the TableOffice on 7 March 2001.

yn cymeradwyo bod y Gorchymyn yn cael eiwneud yn unol â’r drafft a osodwyd yn ySwyddfa Gyflwyno ar 7 Mawrth 2001.

The purpose of these motions is to seek youragreement to making the Countryside andRight of Way Act 2000 (Commencement No.2) (Wales) Order 2001 in order to bring intoeffect certain provisions embodied in theCountryside and Rights of Way Act 2000.

Diben y cynigion hyn yw ceisio eichcytundeb i gyflwyno Gorchymyn Deddf CefnGwlad a Hawliau Tramwy 2000 (CychwynRhif 2) (Cymru) 2001 er mwyn rhoidarpariaethau penodol ar waith sydd yn rhano Ddeddf Cefn Gwlad a Hawliau Tramwy2000.

I will not support William Graham’samendment 1, because it seeks to reopen thedebate about a voluntary approach to theprovision of countryside access. TheAssembly debated that issue prior to theAct’s Royal Assent. The provision of astatutory right of access now underpins thelegislation and there is no merit in re-examining the principle. In addition, the Actprovides for landowners who wish tovoluntarily dedicate land as access l and to sodo.

Ni chefnogaf welliant 1 William Graham,gan ei fod yn ceisio ailagor y ddadl amymagwedd wirfoddol tuag at ddarparumynediad i gefn gwlad. Cynhaliodd yCynulliad ddadl ar y mater hwnnw cynCydsyniad Brenhinol y Ddeddf. Maedarpariaeth hawl mynediad statudol yn sail i’rddeddfwriaeth bellach ac nid oes rhinwedd iailarchwilio’r egwyddor. Hefyd, darpara’rDdeddf ar gyfer tirfeddianwyr sydd yndymuno neilltuo tir yn wirfoddol felmynediad 1 a gwneud hynny.

The Order relates to a limited range ofpowers under the Act to come into effectfrom 1 May 2001. The Order will bring intoeffect all the provisions of Part IV, whichrelate to areas of outstanding natural beauty.These include procedures for designatingareas of outstanding natural beauty, powerfor the Assembly to establish conservationboards for such areas and a duty for localauthorities to prepare areas of outstandingnatural beauty management plans withinthree years.

Mae’r Gorchymyn yn ymwneud agamrywiaeth cyfyngedig o bwerau o dan yDdeddf sydd i’w gweithredu o 1 Mai 2001.Bydd y Gorchymyn yn rhoi hollddarpariaethau Rhan IV, sydd yn ymwneudag ardaloedd o harddwch naturiol eithriadol,ar waith. Mae’r rhain yn cynnwysgweithdrefnau ar gyfer dynodi ardaloedd oharddwch naturiol eithriadol, pŵer i’rCynulliad sefydlu byrddau cadwraeth argyfer ardaloedd o’r fath a dyletswydd arawdurdodau lleol i baratoi cynlluniau rheoliardaloedd o harddwch naturiol eithriadol ofewn tair blynedd.

The Order also commences provisions for theCountryside Council for Wales to makerecommendations to access authorities in theuse of their powers and to make by-laws overaccessed land where appropriate. It also

Cychwynna’r Gorchymyn hefydddarpariaethau i Gyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymruwneud argymhellion i gael mynediad iawdurdodau o ran gwneud defnydd o’upwerau a chreu is-ddeddfau dros dir y cafwyd

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allows it to make grants and loans to anyperson for any of the purposes of the Act.Thirdly, it states that CCW must include areport on the discharges of its functions underthe Act in its annual report. These areimportant provisions.

mynediad iddo lle y bo’n briodol. Caniatâiddo hefyd roi grantiau a benthyciadau iunrhyw berson at unrhyw un o ddibenion yDdeddf. Yn drydydd, noda fod yn rhaid i’rCyngor gynnwys adroddiad ar gyflawni eiswyddogaethau o dan y Ddeddf yn eiadroddiad blynyddol. Mae’r rhain ynddarpariaethau pwysig.

The Order will commence provisions relatingto private vehicular access across commonland to premises. It also introducesamendments to the Highways Act 1980,which provide for simplified procedures forclosing or diverting footpaths or bridal wayswhen justified on grounds such as the safetyof school children and staff, crime preventionand where there is unreasonable interferencewith agriculture.

Bydd y Gorchymyn yn cychwyndarpariaethau mewn perthynas â mynediadpreifat i gerbydau ar draws tir cyffredin ieiddo. Cyflwyna hefyd welliannau i DdeddfPriffyrdd 1980, sydd yn darparu ar gyfergweithdrefnau wedi’u symleiddio ar gyfercau neu ddargyfeirio llwybrau troed neuffyrdd ceffylau pan fo cyfiawnhad droshynny am resymau fel diogelu plant ysgol astaff, atal troseddau a lle yr ymyrrir agamaethyddiaeth mewn ffordd afresymol.

The main control mechanisms on the right ofaccess will be introduced through regulationsthat have yet to be presented to theAssembly. They will first be the subject ofdetailed consultation, but there will be anopportunity for a full debate on theseprovisions in due course.

Cyflwynir y prif ddulliau rheoli ar yr hawlmynediad drwy reoliadau sydd eto i’w dwyngerbron y Cynulliad. Ymgynghorir arnynt ynfanwl yn gyntaf, ond bydd cyfle am ddadllawn ar y darpariaethau hyn maes o law.

In themselves, the provisions in this Orderwill not provide greater access to thecountryside. The public will have not have ageneral right of access to the countrysideuntil access land has been mapped and otherpreparatory work completed. It is importantto state that. The provisions of thiscommencement Order will not hinder thefight against the spread of the foot and mouthdisease in any way. It represents the next stepin implementing the provisions of thisimportant Act and making the most of theopportunities it provides for this country. Icommend the motions to Members.

Ynddynt eu hunain, ni fydd y darpariaethauyn y Gorchymyn hwn yn rhoi mwy ofynediad i gefn gwlad. Ni fydd gan ycyhoedd hawl mynediad cyffredinol i gefngwlad hyd nes y caiff tir mynediad ei fapio acy cwblheir gwaith rhagbaratoawl arall. Mae’nbwysig nodi hynny. Ni fydd darpariaethau’rGorchymyn cychwyn hwn yn rhwystr i’rfrwydr yn erbyn lledaeniad clwy’r traed a’rgenau mewn unrhyw ffordd. Y cam nesafydyw yn y broses o weithredu darpariaethau’rDdeddf bwysig hon a gwneud y gorau o’rcyfleoedd y mae’n eu darparu ar gyfer y wladhon. Cymeradwyaf y cynigion i’r Aelodau.

11:45 a.m.

David Davies: I propose amendment 1 in thename of William Graham. Add at the end ofthe first motion:

David Davies: Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enwWilliam Graham. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd ycynnig:

notes the additional financial andbureaucratic burdens placed uponlandowners and local authorities as a resultof this legislation and recognises thatvoluntary access agreements represent a

yn nodi’r beichiau ariannol a biwrocrataiddychwanegol a roddir ar dirfeddianwyr acawdurdodau lleol o ganlyniad i’rddeddfwriaeth hon ac yn cydnabod bodcytundebau mynediad gwirfoddol yn ffordd

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more cost efficient and participatory wayforward.

ymlaen sy’n fwy cost-effeithlon achyfranogol.

The Conservative group has deep concernsabout the current right-to-roam legislation.We support the general provision for greateraccess to the countryside. However, creatingaccess by imposing compulsory burdens onfarmers is not the answer. The foot andmouth disease crisis has already increasedcosts and pressure on farmers to anintolerable degree. The additional burdens ofenacting this legislation could push somebeyond breaking point. Foot and mouthdisease has shown how fragile ourcountryside is. The Government would notconsider allowing unfettered access tofactories or industrial complexes. At least, Ido not think it is considering that at present.However, it does not seem to realise thatallowing walkers to roam around the nation’sfood-producing areas could have seriousconsequences. Voluntary access would atleast allow farmers some control over whichareas are made available to the public, and atwhich times of the year. This legislation willimpose increased costs on local authoritiesand farmers. The Government has failed totake account of that, and our amendment,which I hope that Members will support, isan attempt to put that right. The Governmentmay argue that there will not be an increasein costs. In that case, I urge it to support ouramendment because it will not cost itanything but will provide reassurance in ruralareas.

Mae gan grŵp y Ceidwadwyr bryderon mawram y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol ynglŷn â’rhawl i grwydro. Cefnogwn y ddarpariaethgyffredinol ar gyfer mynediad mwy i gefngwlad. Fodd bynnag, nid creu mynediaddrwy orfodi beichiau ar ffermwyr yw’r ateb.Mae argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau eisoeswedi cynyddu’r costau a’r pwysau arffermwyr i lefel annioddefol. Gallai’rbeichiau ychwanegol o weithredu’rddeddfwriaeth hon wthio rhai i ben eutennyn. Mae clwy’r traed a’r genau wedidangos mor fregus yw ein cefn gwlad. Nifyddai’r Llywodraeth yn ystyried caniatáumynediad dirwystr i ffatrïoedd neugyfadeiladau diwydiannol. O leiaf, ni chredafei bod yn ystyried hynny ar hyn o bryd. Foddbynnag, nid ymddengys ei bod yn sylweddoliy gallai caniatáu i gerddwyr grwydro ogwmpas ardaloedd cynhyrchu bwyd y wladarwain at ganlyniadau difrifol. O leiaf byddaimynediad gwirfoddol yn caniatáu rhywfaint oreolaeth i ffermwyr o ran pa ardaloedd syddar gael i’r cyhoedd, ac ar ba adegau o’rflwyddyn. Bydd y ddeddfwriaeth hon yngorfodi costau uwch ar awdurdodau lleol affermwyr. Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi methu agystyried hynny, ac mae ein gwelliant, ygobeithiaf y bydd yr Aelodau yn ei gefnogi,yn ymgais i unioni hynny. Gallai’rLlywodraeth ddadlau na fydd cynnydd mewncostau. Os felly, fe’i hanogaf i gefnogi eingwelliant gan na fydd yn costio unrhyw bethiddi ond y bydd yn tawelu meddwl poblmewn ardaloedd gwledig.

What we find most insidious about thisscheme is that it represents an attack on oneof the most basic human rights: the right toown property. New Labour members mayhave thrown away their donkey jackets andshaved off their beards and may even haveadopted a few Conservative economicpolicies such as privatisation—and wecongratulate them for that—but, sadly,socialist instincts still lurk and rise to thesurface every now and then. This Act is anunpleasant manifestation of those socialistinstincts and of putting the interests of thestate before the interests and rights of theindividual. Even at this late stage, I urgeMembers to join the Conservative group in

Yr hyn a gawn yn fwyaf lladradaidd am ycynllun hwn yw ei fod yn ymosodiad ar uno’r hawliau dynol mwyaf sylfaenol: yr hawl ifeddu ar eiddo. Efallai fod aelodau Llafurnewydd wedi taflu eu cotiau gwaith ac eillioeu barfau ac efallai wedi mabwysiaduychydig o bolisïau economaidd Ceidwadolhyd yn oed fel preifateiddio—ac fe’ullongyfarchwn am hynny—ond, yn anffodus,llecha greddf sosialaidd o hyd gan godi i’rwyneb bob hyn a hyn. Mae’r Ddeddf hon ynamlygiad annymunol o’r reddf sosialaiddhonno ac o roi buddiannau’r wlad cynbuddiannau a hawliau’r unigolyn. Hyd ynoed ar yr adeg hwyr hon, anogaf yr Aelodau iymuno â grŵp y Ceidwadwyr a gwrthod y

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rejecting these motions. cynigion hyn.

Alun Pugh: I will be voting to support theOrder. One of the few positive aspects of thefoot and mouth disease outbreak is therealisation that access to the open countrysideunderpins the rural economy. I regret that theWelsh Conservatives are still wedded to theirslogan ‘get off my land’, even though theprinciple of open access to our mountains isnow enshrined in law. I urge theConservatives to look at the ghost towns ofnorth Wales, where walkers have been keptaway by foot and mouth disease controls, andacquire a vision of a thriving rural economyunderpinned by green tourism. Mountainscan be places of great danger but, David, ifyou are equating the Carneddau with asteelworks or an engineering factory, thenyou need to get out more. [Laughter.]

Alun Pugh: Byddaf yn pleidleisio i gefnogi’rGorchymyn. Un o’r ychydig agweddaucadarnhaol ar glwy’r traed a’r genau yw bodpobl wedi sylweddoli bod mynediad i gefngwlad agored yn sail i’r economi wledig.Mae’n edifar gennyf fod Ceidwadwyr Cymruyn glynu wrth eu slogan, sef ‘gadewch fynhir’, er bod egwyddor mynediad agored i’nmynyddoedd bellach wedi ei diogelu’ngyfreithiol. Anogaf y Ceidwadwyr i edrych ardrefi anghyfannedd gogledd Cymru, lle ycadwyd cerddwyr i ffwrdd gan reolaethauclwy’r traed a’r genau, a meithringweledigaeth o economi wledig lewyrchus ynseiliedig ar dwristiaeth werdd. Gallmynyddoedd fod yn lleoedd o berygl mawrond, David, os rhoddwch y Carneddau yn yrun categori â gwaith dur neu ffatribeirianyddiaeth, yna mae angen ichi fyndallan fwy. [Chwerthin.]

The Presiding Officer: I apologise forlaughing. I had an interest in that last remark.

Y Llywydd: Ymddiheuraf am chwerthin. Yroedd gennyf ddiddordeb yn y sylw diwethafyna.

Helen Mary Jones: I have come to the frontof the Chamber to speak because I want toaddress some of my remarks to David Daviesand it is difficult to do so from behind apillar. Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales willsupport this motion and the Order. We willabstain on the amendment since we sharesome of the concerns expressed, particularlyabout the cost. However, I say to theConservative spokesperson: David, on thisissue you and your group are taking the KingCanute line. Yours is the group that leastwants the National Assembly to have theadditional powers needed to take a distinctiveapproach on the countryside and accessissues. It wants those powers to remain atWestminster. I do not think that thisAssembly would necessarily have wished totake a different approach. However, if it wereleft up to the Conservatives, its belovedWestminster Parliament would be the onlydemocratic forum in which Wales would berepresented. There would be not be aNational Assembly, and you would not wantus represented in the European Parliament. Itis your beloved Westminster Parliament thathas passed this Act. David Davies wouldhave us out of the European Union tomorrow

Helen Mary Jones: Yr wyf wedi dod i flaeny Siambr i siarad gan fy mod am gyfeirio rhaio’m sylwadau at David Davies ac mae’nanodd gwneud hynny o’r tu ôl i biler. ByddPlaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yncefnogi’r cynnig hwn a’r Gorchymyn.Ymataliwn ar y gwelliant gan ein bod ynrhannu rhai o’r pryderon a fynegwyd, ynarbennig am y gost. Fodd bynnag, dywedafwrth lefarydd y Ceidwadwyr: David, ar ymater hwn yr ydych chi a’ch grŵp yn cymrydsafbwynt y Brenin Canute. Eich grŵp chiyw’r grŵp sydd yn dymuno leiaf oll i’rCynulliad Cenedlaethol gael y pwerauychwanegol sydd eu hangen er mwyn cymrydymagwedd wahaniaethol ar gefn gwlad amaterion mynediad. Mae am i’r pwerauhynny aros yn San Steffan. Ni chredaf ybyddai’r Cynulliad hwn o reidrwydd wedidymuno cymryd ymagwedd wahanol. Foddbynnag, pe câi’r mater ei adael i’rCeidwadwyr, eu hannwyl Senedd yn SanSteffan fyddai’r unig fforwm democrataiddlle y câi Cymru ei chynrychioli. Ni fyddaiCynulliad Cenedlaethol, ac ni fyddech aminni gael ein cynrychioli yn Senedd Ewrop.Eich annwyl Senedd yn San Steffan syddwedi pasio’r Ddeddf hon. Byddai David

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if he thought he could get away with it. Asfor Alun Cairns, we know where he stands onthat. This is the only democratic forum—

Davies yn ein tynnu allan o’r UndebEwropeaidd yfory pe credai y gallai wneudhynny. Ac o ran Alun Cairns, gwyddom eisafbwynt ef ar hynny. Dyma’r unig fforwmdemocrataidd—

Alun Cairns rose— Alun Cairns a gododd—

The Presiding Officer: Will you give way toAlun Cairns?

Y Llywydd: A ildiwch i Alun Cairns?

Helen Mary Jones: Absolutely not. We haveheard quite enough from him and his sort.[Interruption.]

Helen Mary Jones: Ddim o gwbl. Clywsomhen ddigon ganddo ef a’i fath. [Torri ardraws.]

The Presiding Order: Order. It would becourteous, since you named Alun Cairns, foryou to give way.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Byddai’n gwrtais, ganichi enwi Alun Cairns, ichi ildio.

Helen Mary Jones: If you wish me to do so,Presiding Officer, I would be happy to do so.

Helen Mary Jones: Os dymunwch imiwneud hynny, Lywydd, byddwn yn barod iwneud hynny.

The Presiding Officer: It is not my wish, itis entirely a matter for you. I am only tryingto ensure courtesy.

Y Llywydd: Ni ddymunaf i hynny, mater ichi ydyw yn llwyr. Dim ond ceisio sicrhaucwrteisi yr wyf i.

Helen Mary Jones: As you know, that is ahigh priority for me, so I will certainly allowAlun Cairns to intervene.

Helen Mary Jones: Fel y gwyddoch, maehynny’n flaenoriaeth uchel i mi, felly caniatâfyn sicr i Alun Cairns ymyrryd.

Alun Cairns: I am grateful for your support,Presiding Officer. I am intrigued by HelenMary Jones’s interpretation of my views.Will she clarify that, so that we all knowwhat they are?

Alun Cairns: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am eichcefnogaeth, Lywydd. Mae gennyf ddiddordebyn nehongliad Helen Mary Jones o’msafbwyntiau. A wnaiff egluro hynny, ermwyn inni i gyd wybod beth ydynt?

Helen Mary Jones: My understanding—andI have heard you say this privately—is thatyou think that the United Kingdom might bebetter off in a closer relationship with theUnited States of America than in one with theEuropean Union. If I have misinterpretedthose views, perhaps you should be morecareful about what you say.

Helen Mary Jones: Yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallafi—ac yr wyf wedi eich clywed yn dweud hynyn breifat—credwch y gallai fod yn well i’rDeyrnas Unedig fod mewn perthynasagosach ag Unol Daleithiau America nagmewn perthynas gyda’r Undeb Ewropeaidd.Os camddehonglais y safbwyntiau hynny,efallai y dylech fod yn fwy gofalus am yr hyna ddywedwch.

Alun Cairns: My view about a closer union,or closer relationship—

Alun Cairns: Nid yw fy safbwynt am undebagosach, neu berthynas agosach—

Helen Mary Jones: A union with the UnitedStates? That is an interesting idea.

Helen Mary Jones: Undeb gyda’r UnolDaleithiau? Mae hynny’n syniad diddorol.

The Presiding Officer: Order. I know thatwe are approaching a recess, but I do not

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Gwn ein bod yn dynesuat doriad, ond nid wyf am i’r ddadl hon

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want this debate to degenerate. One speakerat a time please, and I would appreciate it ifwe could then get on with the debate.

ddirywio. Un siaradwr ar y tro os gwelwchyn dda, a byddwn yn gwerthfawrogi gallubwrw ymlaen â’r ddadl wedi hynny.

Alun Cairns: My view about a closerrelationship with the United States ofAmerica does not preclude a policy of beingin Europe, but I do not want to be run byEurope.

Alun Cairns: Nid yw fy safbwynt amberthynas agosach ag Unol DaleithiauAmerica yn nacáu polisi o fod yn Ewrop, ondnid wyf am inni gael ein rheoli gan Ewrop.

Helen Mary Jones: I am sure that we all findthat enormously reassuring. However, mymain point is that this is an Act passed by theWestminster Parliament, which is where theConservative group wants primary legislativepower to reside. That is not what I want, butwhat it wants. In the light of that, as much aswe enjoy your dramatic performances, David,on this issue as on so many others, it is hightime that you stopped trying to turn the clockback and started to attempt to work co-operatively to ensure that this legislation isimplemented as swiftly and as fairly aspossible.

Helen Mary Jones: Yr wyf yn siŵr bodhynny’n gysur mawr inni i gyd. Foddbynnag, fy mhrif bwynt yw bod hon ynDdeddf a basiwyd gan Senedd San Steffan,sef lle yr hoffai grŵp y Ceidwadwyr i bŵerdeddfwriaethol sylfaenol aros. Nid dyna fynymuniad i, ond eu dymuniad hwy. Yngngoleuni hynny, pa faint bynnag ymwynhawn eich perfformiadau dramatig,David, ar y mater hwn fel ar gymaint ofaterion eraill, mae’n hen bryd ichi roi’rgorau i geisio troi’r cloc yn ôl a dechrauceisio cydweithio i sicrhau y rhoddir yddeddfwriaeth hon ar waith mewn ffordd morgyflym a theg â phosibl.

Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales hasconcerns about some aspects of thislegislation. The Minister is well aware ofthose concerns, which are about resourcing,information and detailed issues such as thecontrol of dogs. However, now that thelegislation exists, the sensible and, dare I sayit, grown-up thing to do is to co-operate toensure that the legislation is implemented aswell as it possibly can be. I am confident thatwe can continue to do that through theCommittee.

Mae gan Blaid Cymru—The Party of Walesbryderon am rai agweddau ar yddeddfwriaeth hon. Mae’r Gweinidog yngwbl ymwybodol o’r pryderon hynny, syddyn ymwneud ag adnoddau, gwybodaeth amaterion manwl fel rheoli cŵn. Fodd bynnag,yn awr bod y ddeddfwriaeth yn bodoli, y pethsynhwyrol ac, a feiddiaf ei ddweud, y pethaeddfed yw cydweithredu i sicrhau ygweithredir y ddeddfwriaeth gystal ag syddyn bosibl. Yr wyf yn hyderus y gallwnbarhau i wneud hynny drwy’r Pwyllgor.

Karen Sinclair: I do not intend to say a greatdeal; I would like to make an observation andask a question of David Davies. His is ahypocritical stand, because we all rememberthe views of the Tories—the WelshConservatives, forgive me—on the Burnsreport on hunting with dogs. Farmers oftendo not want hunts to ride across their land.Therefore, according to the WelshConservatives the right to rampage wasacceptable, but the right to roam for the manyseems to be totally unacceptable. Those areconflicting views.

Karen Sinclair: Ni fwriadaf ddweud llawer;hoffwn wneud sylw a gofyn cwestiwn iDavid Davies. Mae ei safbwynt ef ynrhagrithiol, gan ein bod i gyd yn cofiosafbwyntiau’r Torïaid—Ceidwadwyr Cymru,maddeuwch imi—ar adroddiad Burns ar helaâ chŵn. Yn aml nid yw ffermwyr am gaelhelwyr yn marchogaeth ar draws eu tir. Felly,yn ôl Ceidwadwyr Cymru, yr oedd yr hawl iredeg yn wyllt yn dderbyniol, ondymddengys fod hawl gyffredinol i grwydroyn gwbl annerbyniol. Mae’r safbwyntiau’ngroes i’w gilydd.

The Presiding Officer: Order. I remindMembers that this debate is not about

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Atgoffaf yr Aelodau naddadl am hela yw hon.

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hunting.

David Davies: I suspect that the Membermay be slightly confused about what areseparate issues. We support much of whatwas said in the Burns report about the factthat abolishing hunting with hounds wouldhave a detrimental impact on the welfare offoxes. That does not mean to say that wesupport allowing people to irresponsibly—[Interruption.]

David Davies: Tybiaf fod yr Aelod wedidrysu ychydig efallai rhwng materion cwblwahanol. Cefnogwn lawer o’r hyn addywedwyd yn adroddiad Burns ynglŷn â’rffaith y byddai diddymu hela â chŵn yn caeleffaith niweidiol ar les llwynogod. Ni olygahynny ein bod yn cefnogi caniatáu i bobl fodyn anghyfrifol—[Torri ar draws.]

I am sorry that other Members have not takenthe opportunity, as I have done, to read theBurns report. It makes it clear that getting ridof hunting with dogs would be detrimental tothe fox because it would lead to hunters usingsnares and so on.

Y mae’n drueni na chymerodd yr Aelodaueraill y cyfle, fel y gwneuthum i, i ddarllenadroddiad Burns. Eglura y byddai caelgwared ar hela â chŵn yn niweidiol i’rllwynog gan y byddai’n golygu y byddaihelwyr yn defnyddio maglau ac ati.

The Presiding Officer: Order. This debate isnot about hunting.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Nid dadl am hela yw hon.

David Davies: I agree, but I am merelyanswering the question. As regards the rightto roam, allowing people unfettered accessacross open farmland is not a sensible option.I do not see a contradiction in holding thoseviews.

David Davies: Cytunaf, ond y cwbl yr wyfyn ei wneud yw ateb y cwestiwn. O ran yrhawl i grwydro, nid yw caniatáu i bobl gaelmynediad dirwystr ar draws ffermdir agoredyn opsiwn synhwyrol. Ni welaf bod ysafbwyntiau hynny’n groes i’w gilydd.

Karen Sinclair: I had not realised howstrongly David Davies felt about the welfareof foxes. As someone who gave evidence tothe Burns inquiry, I can say categorically thatmany farmers do not want hunts to go acrosstheir land. I am only making anobservation—[CONSERVATIVE ASSEMBLYMEMBERS: ‘It is voluntary.’] When farmerstried to stop hunts from going across theirland, they failed.

Karen Sinclair: Nid oeddwn wedisylweddoli pa mor gryf oedd teimladauDavid Davies am les llwynogod. Fel rhywuna roddodd dystiolaeth i ymchwiliad Burns,gallaf ddweud yn bendant nad yw llawer offermwyr am i helwyr groesi eu tir. Dim ondgwneud sylw a wnaf—[AELODAUCEIDWADOL O’R CYNULLIAD: ‘Mae’nwirfoddol.’] Methodd ffermwyr wrth geisiostopio helwyr rhag croesi eu tir.

Mick Bates: I have heard a few sensiblewords this morning, and I would like to addmy contribution to that genre of speaking.We must be rational and responsible whenconsidering these issues because the hardlinein hypocrisy expressed by the proposer of theamendment is evident. I am afraid that thisprinciple is in place. I too understand andsympathise with the cause of many farmersand the need for greater consultation on anddiscussion of issues relating to mappingareas. We have already established fineprinciples on how we can move towards agreater integrated rural economy, and there isa growing acceptance that visitors’ rights to

Mick Bates: Yr wyf wedi clywed ychydigeiriau synhwyrol y bore yma, a hoffwnychwanegu fy nghyfraniad i’r genre hwnnw osiarad. Rhaid inni fod yn rhesymegol achyfrifol wrth ystyried y materion hyn ganfod y rhagrith digyfaddawd a fynegwyd gangynigydd y gwelliant yn amlwg. Mae arnafofn bod yr egwyddor hon yn ei lle. Yr wyfinnau hefyd yn deall ac yn cydymdeimlo agachos llawer o ffermwyr a’r angen iymgynghori’n ehangach a thrafod materionsydd yn ymwneud â mapio ardaloedd. Yrydym eisoes wedi sefydlu egwyddorion da oran sut y gallwn symud tuag at economiwledig integredig fwy, a derbynnir yn

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walk on public footpaths is an essential partof bringing greater prosperity to the ruraleconomy.

gynyddol bod hawliau ymwelwyr i gerddedar lwybrau troed cyhoeddus yn rhan hanfodolo sicrhau economi wledig fwy llewyrchus.

11:55 a.m.

When the debate on this amendment began, Iwas minded to be sympathetic towards thepart that refers to the burden on localauthorities. They will undoubtedly have tocarry an extra burden in terms of thenecessary provision of wardens andsignposts. I have expressed these views manytimes in the Environment, Planning andTransport Committee and I know that theMinister is aware of our concerns. However,we must address that concern, and I hope thatthe Minister in her summing up will reassureus that no farmer nor local authority willsuffer from any financial burden that mightthreaten their business. There is a need forrecognition from both sides that we aredealing with private property.

Pan ddechreuodd y ddadl ar y gwelliant hwn,fy mwriad oedd dangos cydymdeimlad tuagat y rhan sydd yn cyfeirio at y baich arawdurdodau lleol. Yn ddi-os bydd yn rhaididdynt gario baich ychwanegol yn nhermaudarpariaeth angenrheidiol wardeniaid acarwyddbyst. Yr wyf wedi mynegi’rsafbwyntiau hyn lawer gwaith ym Mhwyllgoryr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth agwn fod y Gweinidog yn ymwybodol o’npryderon. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni ymdrin â’rpryder hwnnw, a gobeithiaf y bydd yGweinidog wrth grynhoi yn ein sicrhau nafydd unrhyw ffermwr nag awdurdod lleol yndioddef o unrhyw faich ariannol a allaifygwth eu busnes. Mae angencydnabyddiaeth o’r naill ochr ein bod yndelio ag eiddo preifat.

I declare an interest as a farmer; I amsympathetic to the landowner’s cause,because there are public footpaths on myland, but I welcome open access to my farm.We must present the best face of the farmingindustry to the world. Shrouding the factswith views on hunting and the welfare offoxes is not the way forward on this—

Datganaf fuddiant fel ffermwr; mae gennyfgydymdeimlad ag achos y tirfeddiannwr, ganfod llwybrau troed cyhoeddus ar fy nhir i,ond croesawaf fynediad agored i’m fferm.Rhaid inni gyflwyno wyneb gorau’rdiwydiant ffermio i’r byd. Nid cuddio’rffeithiau â safbwyntiau ar hela a llesllwynogod yw’r ffordd ymlaen ar hyn—

The Presiding Officer: Order. Will you giveway to Alun Cairns?

Y Llywydd: Trefn. A ildiwch i Alun Cairns?

Mick Bates: No. I have almost finished. Iannounce that the Liberal Democrats, as isour custom, will have a free vote on this.

Mick Bates: Na wnaf. Yr wyf bron â gorffen.Cyhoeddaf y caiff y DemocratiaidRhyddfrydol, yn ôl ein harfer, bleidlais ryddar hyn.

The Minister for Environment (SueEssex): I had hoped that we might be able toscamper through this quickly, in view of thelimited time, and you will have noticed,Presiding Officer, that I kept that in mindduring my opening speech. However, Ishould have known that any motion on theCountryside and Rights of Way Act 2000would prompt hoary old chestnuts, one ofwhich was offered by David Davies, true toform. David, you need to consider yourposition on this because you are out of touchwith some of the organisations—

Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd (SueEssex): Yr oeddwn wedi gobeithio y gallemefallai wibio drwy hyn yn gyflym, o gofio’ramser cyfyngedig, a byddwch wedi sylwi,Lywydd, imi gadw hynny mewn cof yn fyaraith agoriadol. Fodd bynnag, dylwn fodwedi gwybod y byddai unrhyw gynnig arDdeddf Cefn Gwlad a Hawliau Tramwy 2000yn codi hen grachod cyfarwydd, achynigiwyd un ohonynt gan David Davies,yn ôl y disgwyl. David, mae angen ichiystyried eich safbwynt ar hyn gan eich bodwedi colli cysylltiad â rhai o’r sefydliadau—

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[Interruption.] [Torri ar draws.]

The Presiding Officer: Order. For somereason, Members are restless this morning,which only serves to delay our proceedings.Please allow the Minister to be heard insilence, and I address the Conservativebenches, in particular.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Am ryw reswm, mae’rAelodau yn aflonydd y bore yma, sydd ynychwanegu at hyd ein cyfarfod. A fyddechcystal â gwrando ar y Gweinidog mewntawelwch, a chyfeiriaf at feinciau’rCeidwadwyr, yn arbennig.

Sue Essex: I discussed this Bill with many ofthe organisations that have historicallyopposed it, but are now facing the reality thatit will be implemented. So, let us implementit in the best ‘partnership’ way that we can. Itis up to you how you approach it, David, butyou are becoming increasingly out of touchwith the prevailing thought in Wales.

Sue Essex: Trafodais y Mesur hwn gydallawer o’r sefydliadau a’i gwrthwynebodd ynhanesyddol, ond sydd bellach yn wynebu’rrealiti y caiff ei roi ar waith. Felly, gadewchinni ei roi ar waith yn y ffordd ‘bartneriaeth’orau bosibl. Mae’n fater i chi sut yrymdriniwch ag ef, David, ond yr ydych yncolli cysylltiad yn gynyddol â’r meddylfrydcyffredinol yng Nghymru.

David Davies: Will you give way? David Davies: A ildiwch?

Sue Essex: No. I want to finish quickly. Onthe sensible points that were raised, I ampleased that Helen Mary supports the Act andthat Plaid Cymru intends to be grown upabout this.

Sue Essex: Na wnaf. Yr wyf am orffen yngyflym. O ran y pwyntiau synhwyrol agodwyd, yr wyf yn falch fod Helen Mary yncefnogi’r Ddeddf ac y bwriada Plaid Cymruymddwyn yn aeddfed yn hyn o beth.

David Davies: What about the LiberalDemocrats?

David Davies: Beth am y DemocratiaidRhyddfrydol?

Sue Essex: Mick was using language that Idid not understand with his reference to‘genre’ and so on, I will have a word withhim afterwards. The sensible and importantpoint raised by Helen Mary was that theCommittee will have an important role toplay. The details of this will be out for publicconsultation. We will work together inconsultation with other key agencies,including the landowners representation, andthe ramblers’ association to make it work.

Sue Essex: Yr oedd Mick yn defnyddio iaithnad oeddwn yn ei deall gyda’i gyfeiriad at‘genre’ ac ati, caf air gydag ef wedyn. Ypwynt synhwyrol a phwysig a godwyd ganHelen Mary oedd y bydd gan y Pwyllgor rôlbwysig i’w chwarae. Cyhoeddir y manylionperthnasol ar gyfer ymgynghori cyhoeddus.Cydweithiwn ninnau mewn ymgynghoriad agasiantaethau allweddol eraill, gan gynnwyscynrychiolwyr tirfeddianwyr, a chymdeithasy cerddwyr er mwyn gwneud iddo weithio.

For goodness sake, let us have some vision.Alun Pugh commented on what is happeningto the tourism industry and to many otherpeople, such as farmers, and my friends innorth Wales. We can help the agriculturalindustry by encouraging walkers to visit andstay in bed and breakfasts. This is a difficulttime for them. Let us recognise what accesscan do for Wales’s economy.

Er mwyn popeth, gadewch inni gaelrhywfaint o weledigaeth. Gwnaeth Alun Pughsylw ar yr hyn sydd yn digwydd i’r diwydianttwristiaeth ac i lawer o bobl eraill, felffermwyr, a’m ffrindiau yng ngogleddCymru. Gallwn helpu’r diwydiantamaethyddol drwy annog cerddwyr i ymweldac aros mewn llety gwely a brecwast. Maehwn yn gyfnod anodd iddynt. Gadewch innigydnabod yr hyn y gall mynediad ei wneuddros economi Cymru.

Mick made a point about finance. Let us Gwnaeth Mick bwynt am arian. Gadewch

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ensure that access is truly embedded in therural regeneration policies that weimplement. Let us do that in partnership withall agencies. People will discover that thislegislation is important in achieving that. Inthe future, they will look back with a degreeof pride, if we do this properly in Wales, in asensitive, fair and imaginative way looking atthe rural economy. I hope that Memberssupport this.

inni sicrhau bod mynediad wedi’i wreiddio’nwirioneddol yn y polisïau adfywio gwledig aroddwn ar waith. Gadewch inni wneud hynnymewn partneriaeth â phob asiantaeth. Byddpobl yn darganfod bod y ddeddfwriaeth honyn bwysig wrth gyflawni hynny. Yn ydyfodol, byddant yn edrych yn ôl â rhywfainto falchder, os gwnawn hyn yn iawn yngNghymru, mewn ffordd sensitif, deg achreadigol gan edrych ar yr economi wledig.Gobeithiaf y cefnoga’r Aelodau hyn.

Y Llywydd: Galwaf am bleidlais ar ygwelliant i’r cynnig cyntaf.

The Presiding Officer: I call for a vote onthe amendment to the first motion.

Gwelliant 1: O blaid 7 , Ymatal 13, Yn erbyn 26.Amendment 1: For 7, Abstain 13, Against 26.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bourne, NickCairns, AlunDavies, DavidGraham, WilliamMelding, DavidMorgan, JonathanRogers, Peter

Black, PeterButler, RosemaryChapman, ChristineDavidson, JaneDavies, RonEdwards, RichardEssex, SueEvans, DelythFeld, ValGerman, MichaelGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGwyther, ChristineHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, GarethLaw, PeterLewis, HuwMorgan, RhodriNeagle, LynnePugh, AlunRanderson, JennySinclair, KarenThomas, Gwenda

Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol:The following Members abstained:

Bates, MickBurnham, EleanorDafis, CynogDavies, GeraintHancock, BrianJarman, PaulineJones, ElinJones, Ieuan WynLloyd, DavidRyder, JanetThomas, Rhodri GlynWilliams, Kirsty

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Williams, Phil

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment rejected.

Y Llywydd: Galwaf am bleidlais aregwyddor y Gorchymyn.

The Presiding Officer: I call for a vote onthe principle of the Order.

Cynnig: O blaid 39, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 7.Motion: For 39, Abstain 0, Against 7.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorButler, RosemaryChapman, ChristineDafis, CynogDavidson, JaneDavies, GeraintDavies, RonEdwards, RichardEssex, SueEvans, DelythFeld, ValGerman, MichaelGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGwyther, ChristineHancock, BrianHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJarman, PaulineJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, PeterLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidNeagle, LynnePugh, AlunRanderson, JennyRyder, JanetSinclair, KarenThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWilliams, KirstyWilliams, Phil

Bourne, NickCairns, AlunDavies, DavidGraham, WilliamMelding, DavidMorgan, JonathanRogers, Peter

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion adopted.

Y Llywydd: Galwaf am bleidlais ar y cynnigi gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn.

The Presiding Officer: I call for a vote onthe motion to approve the Order.

Cynnig: O blaid 39, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 7.Motion: For 39, Abstain 0, Against 7.

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Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorButler, RosemaryChapman, ChristineDafis, CynogDavidson, JaneDavies, GeraintDavies, RonEdwards, RichardEssex, SueEvans, DelythFeld, ValGerman, MichaelGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGwyther, ChristineHancock, BrianHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJarman, PaulineJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, PeterLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMorgan, RhodriNeagle, LynnePugh, AlunRanderson, JennyRyder, JanetThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWilliams, KirstyWilliams, Phil

Bourne, NickCairns, AlunDavies, DavidGraham, WilliamMelding, DavidMorgan, JonathanRogers, Peter

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion adopted.

Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Cyngor Addysgu Cyffredinol Cymru (SwyddogaethauDisgyblu) 2001

Approval of the General Teaching Councils for Wales (Disciplinary Functions)Regulations 2001

The Minister for Education and LifelongLearning (Jane Davidson): I propose that

Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu GydolOes (Jane Davidson): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol

considers the principle of the GeneralTeaching Council For Wales (DisciplinaryFunctions) Regulations 2001, laid in theTable Office on 14 March 2001.

yn ystyried egwyddor Rheoliadau CyngorAddysg Cyffredinol Cymru (SwyddogaethauDisgyblu) 2001, a osodwyd yn y SwyddfaGyflwyno ar 14 Mawrth 2001.

I propose that Cynigiaf fod

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the National Assembly y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol

considers the report of the LegislationCommittee which has not identified underStanding Order No. 11.5 any matters forconcern in the draft Order, the GeneralTeaching Council For Wales (DisciplinaryFunctions) Regulations 2001, laid in theTable Office on 20 March 2001; and

yn ystyried adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deddfaunad yw wedi nodi unrhyw faterion o dan ReolSefydlog Rhif 11.5 sy’n destun pryder yn yGorchymyn drafft, Rheoliadau CyngorAddysg Cyffredinol Cymru (SwyddogaethauDisgyblu) 2001, a osodwyd yn y SwyddfaGyflwyno ar 20 Mawrth 2001; ac

approves that the Order is made inaccordance with the draft laid in the TableOffice on 14 March 2001 and theMemorandum Of Corrections laid in theTable Office on 27 March 2001.

yn cymeradwyo bod y Gorchymyn yn cael eiwneud yn unol â’r drafft a osodwyd yn ySwyddfa Gyflwyno ar 14 Mawrth 2001 a’rMemorandwm Cywiriadau a osodwyd yn ySwyddfa Gyflwyno ar 27 Mawrth 2001.

The General Teaching Council for Wales wasformally established by the Assembly on 1September last year to provide anindependent and authoritative voice to theteaching profession, working with theNational Assembly and others to raisestandards. Its principal statutory functions areto provide advice to the Assembly and otherson a wide range of professional issues toestablish and maintain a register and recordsof teachers. It is also responsible, inaccordance with regulations for disciplinaryaction against teachers, for unacceptableprofessional conduct, convictions of relevantoffences and serious professionalincompetence.

Sefydlwyd Cyngor Addysgu CyffredinolCymru yn ffurfiol gan y Cynulliad ar 1 Mediy llynedd er mwyn darparu llais annibynnolac awdurdodol i’r proffesiwn addysgu, ganweithio gyda’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol aceraill i godi safonau. Ei brif swyddogaethaustatudol yw rhoi cyngor i’r Cynulliad ac eraillar amrywiaeth eang o faterion proffesiynol isefydlu a chadw cofrestr a chofnodion oathrawon. Mae hefyd yn gyfrifol, yn unol ârheoliadau ar gyfer camau disgyblu yn erbynathrawon, am ymddygiad proffesiynolannerbyniol, dedfrydau troseddau perthnasolac anallu proffesiynol difrifol.

The Assembly has already agreed regulationsand an Order, which came into force onSeptember 2000, covering the registration ofteachers and the maintenance of records. Theregulations now before us are, therefore, thefinal piece of the jigsaw designed to enablethe council to fulfil its disciplinaryresponsibility.

Mae’r Cynulliad eisoes wedi cytuno arreoliadau a Gorchymyn, a ddaeth i rym ymMedi 2000, sydd yn cwmpasu cofrestruathrawon a chadw cofnodion. Y rheoliadausydd yn awr ger ein bron, felly, yw darn olafy jig-so a gynlluniwyd i alluogi’r cyngor igyflawni ei gyfrifoldeb disgyblu.

The regulations provide a framework for thecouncil as it considers cases of teachers whohave failed to uphold the high standardsexpected of them, which are delivered by thevast majority of members of the teachingprofession. They allow the council toconsider the teacher’s place in the profession.

Darpara’r rheoliadau fframwaith ar gyfer ycyngor wrth iddo ystyried achosion athrawona fethodd â chynnal y safonau uchel addisgwylir ganddynt, ac a gyflawnir ganfwyafrif helaeth aelodau’r proffesiwnaddysgu. Caniatânt i’r cyngor ystyriedsefyllfa’r athro yn y proffesiwn.

It is important to note, however, that thecouncil’s role is not to usurp that of theemployer. It is not to usurp that of the LEAor governors who will continue to take

Mae’n bwysig nodi, fodd bynnag, nad rôl ycyngor yw trawsfeddiannu rôl y cyflogwr. Niddylai drawsfeddiannu rôl yr AALl neu’rllywodraethwyr a fydd yn parhau i wneud

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decisions on the conduct and competence oftheir employees. It is only after that step thatthe council, acting on the employer’sfindings, will consider whether any furtheraction should be taken in relation to anyteacher on its register.

penderfyniadau ar ymddygiad achymhwysedd eu cyflogeion. Dim ond ar ôl ycam hwnnw y bydd y cyngor, gan weithreduar ganfyddiadau’r cyflogwr, yn ystyried addylid cymryd unrhyw gamau pellach mewnperthynas ag unrhyw athro ar ei gofrestr neubeidio.

12:05 p.m.

The regulations enable the council toestablish investigating committees toconsider allegations of unacceptableprofessional misconduct, convictions ofrelevant offences or serious professionalincompetence. Where the committeeconsiders that there is a case to answer, theregulations provide for a conduct orcompetence committee to hear the case andto consider whether a disciplinary ordershould be made in relation to the teacherinvolved. These committees, in turn, willhave the power to apply a range of sanctions,from a reprimand to a prohibition order,which will remove a teacher from thecouncil’s register of teachers, with theconsequence of preventing that teacher fromcontinuing to teach in the maintained sector.

Mae’r rheoliadau yn galluogi’r cyngor isefydlu pwyllgorau ymchwilio i ystyriedcyhuddiadau o gamymddygiad proffesiynolannerbyniol, dedfrydau troseddau perthnasolneu anallu proffesiynol difrifol. Lle yrystyria’r pwyllgor bod achos i’w ateb,darpara’r rheoliadau ar gyfer pwyllgorymddygiad neu gymhwysedd i wrando’rachos ac ystyried a ddylid cyflwynogorchymyn disgyblu neu beidio mewnperthynas â’r athro dan sylw. Bydd gan ypwyllgorau hyn, yn eu tro, y pŵer igymhwyso amrywiaeth o sancsiynau, ogerydd i orchymyn gwahardd, a fydd yndiddymu athro o gofrestr athrawon y cyngor,gyda’r canlyniad o atal yr athro hwnnw rhagparhau i addysgu yn y sector a gynhelir.

The regulations are largely permissive in thatthey enable the General Teaching Council forWales to decide for itself the best way tohandle what are largely procedural mattersrelated to membership and proceedings of thedisciplinary committees. Only where theenabling legislation, the Human Rights Act1998 or natural justice requires are theregulations prescriptive. In practice, thatmeans that the regulations will, for example,prescribe that teachers should have theopportunity to appear before, and berepresented at, a hearing. There is a right ofappeal against any disciplinary order.

I raddau helaeth mae’r rheoliadau yn oddefolgan eu bod yn galluogi Cyngor AddysguCyffredinol Cymru i benderfynu drosto’i hunar y ffordd orau i ymdrin â’r hyn sydd, iraddau helaeth, yn faterion gweithdrefn syddyn gysylltiedig ag aelodaeth ac achosion ypwyllgorau disgyblu. Dim ond lle y mae’rddeddfwriaeth alluogi, Deddf Hawliau Dynol1998 neu gyfiawnder naturiol yn galw amhynny y mae’r rheoliadau yn gyfarwyddol.Yn ymarferol, golyga hynny y bydd yrheoliadau, er enghraifft, yn rhoicyfarwyddyd y dylai athrawon gael cyfle iymddangos gerbron gwrandawiad, a chael eucynrychioli. Mae hawl apelio yn erbynunrhyw orchymyn disgyblu.

The regulations have been the subject ofconsultation, on policy and detail, with awide range of bodies with an interest in theteaching profession and the wider educationfield, including the Education and LifelongLearning Committee. All comments wereconsidered in drawing up the final draft. Itherefore hope that you will support themotion.

Ymgynghorwyd ar y rheoliadau, o ran polisia manylder, gydag amrywiaeth eang o gyrffsydd yn ymddiddori yn y proffesiwn addysgua’r maes addysg ehangach, gan gynnwys yPwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes.Ystyriwyd pob sylw wrth lunio’r drafftterfynol. Gobeithiaf felly y cefnogwch ycynnig.

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Gareth Jones: Datganaf fuddiant fel athrosydd heb gofrestru eto gyda ChyngorAddysgu Cyffredinol Cymru.

Gareth Jones: I declare an interest as ateacher who has not yet registered with theGeneral Teaching Council for Wales.

O ddarllen y rheoliadau, mae’n amlwg ybydd y cyngor yn ymarfer pwerau disgyblumewn perthynas â chyhuddiadau ogamymddygiad proffesiynol difrifol neuanallu yn erbyn athrawon. Â’r rheoliadauymlaen i sefydlu pwyllgorau a fydd yn rheoliswyddogaethau disgyblu’r cyngor, sefpwyllgor ymchwilio, pwyllgor ymddygiadproffesiynol a phwyllgor gallu proffesiynol.O wrando ar y Gweinidog yn dehongli’rrheoliadau hyn, ymddengys fod iddyntelfennau negyddol a bygythiol, ond yr wyf ynsiŵr eu bod yn angenrheidiol.

From reading the regulations, it is obviousthat the council will exercise disciplinarypowers in relation to allegations of seriousprofessional misconduct or incompeteneagainst teachers. The regulations go on toestablish committees that will control thecouncil’s disciplinary functions, namely aninvestigating committee, a professionalconduct committee and a professionalcompetence committee. From listening to theMinister interpreting these regulations, theyappear to contain negative and threateningelements, but I am sure that they arenecessary.

Serch hynny, nid oes cyfeiriad yng nghynlluncorfforaethol y cyngor addysgu atgyfrifoldebau neu ddyletswyddau i warchodbuddiannau athrawon sydd wedi dioddef camyn eu gyrfa proffesiynol gan reolwyr,llywodraethwyr ysgolion, neu awdurdodauaddysg lleol. Gwelsom achos o gam-dystiolaeth yn erbyn aelod o’r proffesiwn acachos arall o ddiswyddo annheg ynddiweddar.

However, there is no reference in theteaching council’s corporate plan toresponsiblities or duties to safeguard theinterests of teachers who have sufferedinequity in their professional career fromschool managers, governors, or localeducation authorities. We saw a case of falseallegations against a member of theprofession and another case of unfairdismissal recently.

Er bod y cyrff proffesiynol, sef undebau’rathrawon, yn gweithredu ar ran athrawon, oniddylai’r cyngor addysgu ystyried ei rôl a suty dylai ymwneud ag agweddau mwy positif igynnal morâl, enw da a buddiannauproffesiynol athrawon, yn ogystal â’udisgyblu? Oni ddylai fod llawer mwy ogydbwysedd yn y rheoliadau hyn ynghylchrôl y cyngor addysgu?

Although the professional organisations,namely the teachers’ unions, act on behalf ofteachers, should not the teaching councilconsider its role and how it should deal withmore positive aspects to sustain the morale,good reputation and professional interests ofteachers, in addition to disciplining them?Should not there be a much greater balance inthese regulations as regards the teachingcouncil’s role?

Eleanor Burnham: Datganaf fuddiant felathrawes.

Eleanor Burnham: I declare an interest as ateacher.

Croesawn y rheoliadau hyn, sydd yngyfraniad at gynnal safonau dysgu aphroffesiynoldeb athrawon. Y gobaith yw nafydd angen defnyddio’r pwerau disgyblu hynyn aml. Mae’n briodol i brifathrawon allywodraethwyr ymdrin â’r rhan fwyaf obroblemau disgyblu sydd yn codi mewnysgolion. Fodd bynnag, mae’n debyg y byddangen cyfeirio ychydig o achosion at GyngorAddysgu Cyffredinol Cymru.

We welcome these regulations, which are acontribution towards maintaining teachers’teaching standards and professionalism. It ishoped that these disciplining powers will notneed to be used often. It is appropriate forheadteachers and governors to deal with themajority of disciplinary problems that arise inschools. However, it is likely that some caseswill need to be referred to the GeneralTeaching Council for Wales.

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Jonathan Morgan: When a teacher isaccused of misconduct, there is a point atwhich that teacher’s name is made public. Atwhat point during these proceedings would ateacher’s name be made public? Would thathappen when the investigating committeeconsiders allegations, when the professionalconduct or professional competencecommittees consider allegations, or at adisciplinary stage? As the Minister knows,the Welsh Conservative Party is concernedabout the number of allegations made againstteachers, which has increased during recentyears. Many of these teachers’ names areprinted in newspapers and broadcast on themedia. Even when teachers are found not tohave committed the offences of which theywere accused, the accusations still havedamaging effects on their careers. Will theMinister explain when this informationbecomes public, at the beginning or end ofproceedings? We would be concerned ifteachers’ names were made public when theinvestigations committee were only makingpreliminary enquiries.

Jonathan Morgan: Pan gyhuddir athro ogamymddygiad, daw amser pan gyhoeddirenw’r athro hwnnw. Ar ba bwynt yn ystod yrachos y câi enw athro ei gyhoeddi? Addigwyddai hynny wrth i’r pwyllgorymchwilio ystyried cyhuddiadau, wrth i’rpwyllgorau ymddygiad proffesiynol neugymhwysedd proffesiynol ystyriedcyhuddiadau, neu yn ystod cyfnod disgyblu?Fel y gŵyr y Gweinidog, mae PlaidGeidwadol Cymru yn pryderu am nifer ycyhuddiadau a wneir yn erbyn athrawon,sydd wedi cynyddu yn ystod y blynyddoedddiwethaf. Argreffir enwau llawer o’rathrawon hyn mewn papurau newydd ac fe’udarlledir yn y cyfryngau. Hyd yn oed panganfyddir nad yw athrawon wedi cyflawni’rtroseddau y’u cyhuddwyd ohonynt, caiff ycyhuddiadau effeithiau niweidiol ar eugyrfaoedd serch hynny. A esbonia’rGweinidog pryd y cyhoeddir yr wybodaethhon, ar ddechrau neu ar ddiwedd yr achos?Byddem yn pryderu pe câi enwau’r athrawoneu cyhoeddi pan nad oedd y pwyllgorymchwiliadau ond yn gwneud ymholiadaurhagarweiniol.

The Minister for Education and LifelongLearning (Jane Davidson): It is importantto say, in terms of these regulations—becausethat it what is under discussion today, theregulations rather than the wider debateraised by Gareth—that the council will onlyconsider cases passed to it by the employer,where a teacher has been dismissed on thegrounds of incompetence, or in cases wherethe employer would have considereddismissal, but the teacher resigned instead.Therefore the council examines specific areasof professional competence.

Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu GydolOes (Jane Davidson): Mae’n bwysig dweud,yn nhermau’r rheoliadau hyn—gan mai dynaa drafodir heddiw, y rheoliadau yn hytrachna’r ddadl ehangach a godwyd gan Gareth—mai dim ond achosion a drosglwyddwyd iddogan y cyflogwr y bydd y cyngor yn euhystyried, lle y diswyddwyd athro ar sailanallu, neu achosion lle y byddai’r cyflogwrwedi ystyried diswyddo, ond i’r athroymddiswyddo yn lle hynny. Felly archwilia’rcyngor feysydd penodol o allu proffesiynol.

Regarding the publishing of information, oneof the safeguards in the system is the appealsprocess. It would clearly be against theprinciples of natural justice if there were asituation where anyone was identified prior toan appeals process being properly conducted.The regulations do not require the council topublish information at all. Whether topublish, and the manner of publication willbe for the council to decide. It must do so inaccordance with the Human Rights Act 1998and natural justice.

O ran cyhoeddi gwybodaeth, un oamddiffynfeydd y system yw’r broses apêl.Mae’n amlwg y byddai enwi person cyncynnal proses apêl gywir yn groes iegwyddorion cyfiawnder naturiol. Nid yw’rrheoliadau yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i’rcyngor gyhoeddi gwybodaeth o gwbl. Materi’r cyngor fydd penderfynu a ddylid eichyhoeddi neu beidio, a’r ffordd o’ichyhoeddi. Rhaid iddo wneud hynny yn unolâ Deddf Hawliau Dynol 1998 a chyfiawndernaturiol.

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I ask you to support these regulations. Gofynnaf ichi gefnogi’r rheoliadau hyn.

Several Assembly Members rose— Sawl Aelod o’r Cynulliad a gododd—

The Presiding Officer: Order. Registeredteachers do not need to declare an interest.Guidance on declaring an interest in thismatter is on the Chamberweb.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Nid oes angen i athrawoncofrestredig ddatgan buddiant. Maecanllawiau ar ddatgan buddiant yn y materhwn ar we’r Siambr.

Galwaf am bleidlais ar egwyddor yGorchymyn.

I call for a vote on the principle of the Order.

Cynnig: O blaid 43, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0.Motion: For 43, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorButler, RosemaryCairns, AlunChapman, ChristineDafis, CynogDavidson, JaneDavies, DavidDavies, GeraintDavies, RonEssex, SueGerman, MichaelGibbons, BrianGraham, WilliamGregory, JaniceGwyther, ChristineHancock, BrianHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJarman, PaulineJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Ieuan WynLaw, PeterLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMelding, DavidMorgan, JonathanMorgan, RhodriNeagle, LynnePugh, AlunRanderson, JennyRogers, PeterRyder, JanetSinclair, KarenThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWilliams, KirstyWilliams, Phil

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

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Motion adopted.

Y Llywydd: Galwaf am bleidlais ar y cynnigi gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn.

The Presiding Officer: I call for a vote onthe motion to approve the Order.

Cynnig: O blaid 42, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0.Motion: For 42, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorButler, RosemaryCairns, AlunChapman, ChristineDafis, CynogDavidson, JaneDavies, DavidDavies, GeraintDavies, RonEssex, SueGerman, MichaelGibbons, BrianGraham, WilliamGregory, JaniceGwyther, ChristineHancock, BrianHutt, JaneJarman, PaulineJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Ieuan WynLaw, PeterLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMelding, DavidMorgan, JonathanMorgan, RhodriNeagle, LynnePugh, AlunRanderson, JennyRogers, PeterRyder, JanetSinclair, KarenThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWilliams, KirstyWilliams, Phil

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion adopted.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 12.08 p.m.The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 12.08 p.m.

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The Deputy Presiding Officer: Before wecontinue with today’s business, I ask thatspeeches be as succinct as possible, giventhat we are under pressures of time, and theimportance of the matters before us.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Cyn inni barhau âbusnes heddiw, gofynnaf i’r areithiau fodmor gryno â phosibl, o gofio ein bod o danbwysau amser, a phwysigrwydd y materionger ein bron.

Dirprwyo i Brif Weinidog Cymru Holl Swyddogaethau Cynulliad CenedlaetholCymru a geir yn neu o dan Reoliadau a wneir o dan Adran 2(2) o Ddeddf

Cymunedau Ewrop 1972Delegation to the First Minister all the Functions of the National Assembly for

Wales Contained in or under Regulations made under Section 2(2) of theEuropean Communities Act 1972

The Minister for Education and LifelongLearning (Jane Davidson): I propose that

Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu GydolOes (Jane Davidson): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales, actingunder sections 62(1)(b) of the Government ofWales Act 1998, resolves to delegate all thefunctions of the National Assembly containedin or under regulations made by

y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, gan weithredu odan adran 62(1)(b) o Ddeddf LlywodraethCymru 1998, yn penderfynu dirprwyo hollswyddogaethau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ageir yn neu o dan y rheoliadau a wneir gan

(a) the National Assembly (whether made bythe National Assembly alone or together witha UK Minister, UK Government Departmentor the Scottish or Northern Irish Executives)under section 2(2) of the EuropeanCommunities Act 1972 pursuant to thefunctions conferred on the Assembly by:

(a) y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol (boed yrheoliadau’n cael eu gwneud gan y CynulliadCenedlaethol ar ei ben ei hun neu ar y cyd âGweinidog y DU, Adran o Lywodraeth y DUneu Weithrediaethau’r Alban neu OgleddIwerddon) o dan adran 2(2) o DdeddfCymunedau Ewrop 1972 yn unol â’rswyddogaethau a roddwyd i’r Cynulliad gan:

i. the European Communities (Designation)(No. 3) Order 1999, (SI 1999/2788)(available on the HMSO website athttp://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992788.htm; and

i. Gorchymyn y Cymunedau Ewropeaidd(Dynodiad) (Rhif 3) 1999 (SI 1999/2788) (argael ar wefan yr HMSO ynhttp://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992788.htm; a

ii. the European Communities (Designation)(No. 3) Order 2000, (SI 2000/2812)(available on the HMSO website athttp://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002812.htm; or

ii. Gorchymyn y Cymunedau Ewropeaidd(Dynodiad) (Rhif 3) 2000, (SI 2000/2812) (argael ar wefan yr HMSO ynhttp://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002812.htm; neu

b. a UK Minister under his concurrentpowers, under the said section 2(2) for thesame purposes

(b) Weinidog y DU o dan ei bwerau cyd-gyfredol, o dan yr adran 2(2) dywededig at yrun dibenion

to the Assembly First Minister, save thosewhich by law cannot be so delegated.

i Brif Weinidog y Cynulliad, ac eithrio’rrheini na ellir drwy ddeddf eu dirprwyo yn ymodd hwnnw.

Nothing in this motion will have the effect ofreducing the pre-eminence of the authority ofthe full Assembly or of reducing the role of

Ni fydd dim yn y cynnig hwn yn lleihaugoruchafiaeth awdurdod y Cynulliad llawn,nac yn lleihau swyddogaeth Pwyllgorau'r

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the Assembly Committees in the exercise ofthe above functions.

Cynulliad wrth arfer y swyddogaethauuchod.

The purpose of this motion is to seek theAssembly’s agreement for functions createdin the regulations made in areas of EuropeanUnion policy, for which the Assembly hasbeen designated. These are the EuropeanCommunities (Designation) (No. 3) Order1999 and the European Communities(Designation) (No. 3) Order 2000, which willbe delegated to the First Minister as providedfor in section 62 of the Government of WalesAct 1998. This would be done in theknowledge that, in accordance with usualpractice, the First Minister would then makeappropriate delegations in turn to his Cabinetcolleagues and then, where appropriate,would delegate some functions to staff.

Diben y cynnig hwn yw ceisio cytundeb yCynulliad ar gyfer swyddogaethau a grëwydyn y rheoliadau a wnaethpwyd mewnrhannau o bolisi yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, ydynodwyd y Cynulliad ar eu cyfer, sefGorchymyn Cymunedau Ewropeaidd(Dynodiad) (Rhif 3) 1999 a GorchymynCymunedau Ewropeaidd (Dynodiad) (Rhif 3)2000, a ddirprwyir i Brif Weinidog Cymru fely darparwyd ar ei gyfer yn adran 62 DeddfLlywodraeth Cymru 1998. Gwneir hyn ganwybod y byddai Prif Weinidog Cymru, ynunol ag arfer cyffredin, wedyn yn dirprwyo’nbriodol yn ei dro i gyd-Aelodau ei Gabinet acyna, lle y bo’n briodol, byddai’n dirprwyorhai swyddogaethau i’r staff.

These Orders were made by Her Majesty byOrder in Council under section 2 (2) of theEuropean Communities Act 1972. Theyempower the National Assembly to makeregulations, also under section 2 (2) of thatAct, for the purposes of implementingvarious European Union obligations inrelation to Wales. The precise purposes inrespect of which the National Assembly canmake these regulations are set out in theschedules to the Orders and are set out indetail on the intranet.

Gwnaethpwyd y Gorchmynion hyn gan EiMawrhydi drwy Orchymyn mewn Cyngor odan adran 2 (2) Deddf CymunedauEwropeaidd 1972. Rhoddant bŵer i’rCynulliad Cenedlaethol wneud rheoliadau,hefyd o dan adran 2 (2) y Ddeddf honno, atddibenion gweithredu rhwymedigaethauamrywiol yr Undeb Ewropeaidd mewnperthynas â Chymru. Nodir yr unionddibenion y gall y Cynulliad Cenedlaetholwneud y rheoliadau hyn yn eu cylch ynatodlenni’r Gorchmynion ac fe’u nodir ynfanwl ar y mewnrwyd.

I commend this motion to Members. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig hwn i’r Aelodau.

12:15 p.m.

Cynnig: O blaid 40, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0.Motion: For 40, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorButler, RosemaryCairns, AlunChapman, ChristineDafis, CynogDavidson, JaneDavies, DavidDavies, GeraintDavies, RonEssex, SueGibbons, Brian

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Graham, WilliamGregory, JaniceGwyther, ChristineHancock, BrianHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJarman, PaulineJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, GarethLaw, PeterLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMelding, DavidMorgan, JonathanMorgan, RhodriNeagle, LynnePugh, AlunRanderson, JennyRogers, PeterRyder, JanetSinclair, KarenThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWilliams, KirstyWilliams, Phil

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion adopted

Cymeradwyo Newidiadau i Reol Sefydlog Rhif 23, Adran 3 a Rheol SefydlogRhif 34

Approval of Changes to Standing Order No. 23, Section 3 and Standing OrderNo. 34

The Minister for Education and LifelongLearning (Jane Davidson): I propose that

Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu GydolOes (Jane Davidson): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly, acting under section46(6) of the Government of Wales Act 1998and Standing Order No. 34:

y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, gan weithredu odan adran 46(6) Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru aRheol Sefydlog Rhif 34:

(i) considers the report of the BusinessCommittee laid in the Table Office on 28March 2001; and

(i) yn ystyried adroddiad y Pwyllgor Busnesa osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 28Mawrth 2001; a

(ii) approves the following revisions ofStanding Orders:

(ii) yn cymeradwyo’r gwelliannau canlynoli’r Rheolau Sefydlog:

Standing Order No. 34 Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 34

1. After paragraph 34.3 insert, 1. Ar ôl paragraff 34.3 ychwanegu,

34.3A. The Assembly may provide that anystanding order or any revision thereto shallbe temporary and where a standing order ora revision thereto is temporary, its preciseduration shall be expressed in a distinctparagraph of the standing order or the

34.3A. Caiff y Cynulliad ddarparu y byddunrhyw reol sefydlog neu unrhyw welliantiddi yn un dros dro a phan fydd rheolsefydlog neu welliant iddi yn un dros dro,dywedir pa mor hir yn union y bydd yn paramewn paragraff ar wahân o’r rheol sefydlog

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revision. neu’r gwelliant.

Standing Order No. 23, section 3 Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 23, adran 3

1. After the heading insert: 1. Ar ôl y pennawd ychwanegu:

Section 3 of Standing Order No. 23 applies toAssembly subordinate legislation, not beingAssembly general subordinate legislation,which is made by the Assembly, whetherjointly or not, together with a UK Minister orUK Government Department, the ScottishExecutive or Northern Ireland Executive.

Mae adran 3 Rheol sefydlog Rhif 23 yngymwys i is-ddeddfwriaeth y Cynulliad, nadyw’n is-ddeddfwriaeth gyffredinol yCynulliad, ac sy’n cael ei gwneud gan yCynulliad, p’un ai ar y cyd neu beidio, ag uno Weinidogion y DU neu un o AdrannauLlywodraeth y DU, Gweithrediaeth yr Albanneu Weithrediaeth Gogledd Iwerddon.

2. At the start of paragraph 23.9 insert, 2. Ar ddechrau paragraff 23.9 ychwanegu,

Subject to paragraphs 23.11A to 23.11E, Yn amodol ar baragraffau 23.11A i 23.11E,

3. After paragraph 23.11 insert, 3. Ar ôl paragraff 23.11 ychwanegu,

23.11A. Subject to paragraph 23.11E, theAssembly Cabinet may determine that, in theparticular circumstances, it is not reasonablypracticable for a draft to be laid before theAssembly under paragraph 23.9 and in thatcase paragraphs 23.11B to 23.11D shallapply.

23.11A. Yn amodol ar baragraff 23.11E, caiffCabinet y Cynulliad benderfynu, o dan yramgylchiadau penodol, nad yw’n rhesymolymarferol i ddrafft gael ei osod gerbron yCynulliad o dan baragraff 23.9 ac yn yrachos hwnnw bydd paragraffau 23.11B i23.11D yn gymwys.

23.11B. The draft shall be signed on behalf ofthe Assembly in accordance with paragraph22.26(iii).

23.11B. Bydd y drafft yn cael ei lofnodi arran y Cynulliad yn unol â pharagraff22.26(iii).

23.11C. The relevant Assembly Minister shallas soon as reasonably practicable after thedraft has been signed under paragraph23.11B lay before the Assembly amemorandum notifying the Assembly that thesubordinate legislation has been signed onbehalf of the Assembly and explaining itsintended effect and likely financialimplications.

23.11C. Cyn gynted ag y bo’n rhesymolymarferol ar ôl i’r drafft gael ei lofnodi o danbaragraff 23.11B bydd y GweinidogCynulliad perthnasol yn gosod memorandwmgerbron y Cynulliad yn hysbysu’r Cynulliadfod yr is-ddeddfwriaeth wedi’i llofnodi ar rany Cynulliad ac yn esbonio ei heffaitharfaethedig a’r goblygiadau ariannoltebygol.

23.11D. Whenever a memorandum is laidbefore the Assembly under paragraph23.11C, a Member may, within the period of40 working days beginning with the date onwhich the memorandum is laid, table amotion instructing the relevant AssemblyMinister:

23.11D. Pryd bynnag y bydd memorandwmyn cael ei osod gerbron y Cynulliad o danbaragraff 23.11C, caiff Aelod, o fewn ycyfnod o 40 diwrnod gwaith gan ddechrau ary dyddiad y gosodir y memorandwm gerbrony Cynulliad, gyflwyno cynnig yncyfarwyddo’r Gweinidog Cynulliadperthnasol:

(a) to consider the possibility of thesubordinate legislation being revoked in

(a) i ystyried y posibilrwydd o ddiddymu’r is-ddeddfwriaeth mewn perthynas â Chymru; a

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relation to Wales; and

(b) to lay before the Assembly as soon aspossible a report stating what action theAssembly Minister has taken or proposes totake in that respect.

(b) i osod gerbron y Cynulliad cyn gynted âphosibl adroddiad yn datgan pa gamau ymae’r Gweinidog Cynulliad wedi eu cymrydneu yn bwriadu eu cymryd yn y cyswllthwnnw.

23.11E. Paragraphs 23.11A to 23.11E and,in paragraph 23.9, the words ‘Subject toparagraphs 23.11A to 23.11E,’ shall cease tohave effect on 9 May 2001.

23.11E. Bydd effaith paragraffau 23.11A i23.11E ac, ym mharagraff 23.9, effaith ygeiriau ‘Yn amodol ar baragraffau 23.11A i23.11E,’ yn peidio ar 9 Mai 2001.

4. For paragraph 23.12 substitute: 4. Yn lle paragraff 23.12 rhodder:

23.12. Where subordinate legislation towhich this section applies would, if thelegislation were made by the Assembly alone,fall within section 1 or section 2 of thisstanding order, the provisions of that sectionor those sections shall also apply to it exceptthat:

23.12. Pan fyddai is-ddeddfwriaeth y mae’radran hon yn gymwys iddi, os câi’rddeddfwriaeth ei gwneud gan y Cynulliad ynunig, yn dod o fewn adran 1 neu adran 2 o’rrheol sefydlog hon, bydd darpariaethau’radran honno neu’r adrannau hynny yngymwys iddi hefyd ac eithrio:

(a) the reference in paragraphs 23.1 and 23.5to the provisions of paragraphs 22.2 to 22.30shall be replaced by references toparagraphs 23.9 to 23.11E; and

(a) y bydd y cyfeiriad ym mharagraffau 23.1a 23.5 at ddarpariaethau paragraffau 22.2 i22.30 yn cael eu disodli gan gyfeiriadau atbaragraffau 23.9 i 23.11E; a

(b) in a case to which paragraphs 23.11A to23.11E apply, paragraph 23.2 shall haveeffect as if for ‘after the Assembly has beennotified’ there were substituted ‘after thatAssembly Minister has been notified’.

(b) mewn achos y mae paragraffau 23.11A i23.11E yn gymwys iddo, bydd paragraff 23.2yn cael effaith fel pe bai ‘ar ôl i’r Cynulliadgael ei hysbysu’ yn cael ei amnewid gan ‘arôl i’r Gweinidog Cynulliad gael ei hysbysu’.

Provided that, on and after 9 May 2001, forsub-paragraphs(a) and (b) of paragraph23.12, substitute:

Ar yr amod, ar neu ar ôl 9 Mai 2001, yn lleis-baragraffau (a) a (b) o baragraff 23.12, yramnewidier:

the reference in paragraphs 23.1 and 23.5 tothe provisions of paragraphs 22.2 to 22.30shall be replaced by reference to paragraphs23.9 to 23.11.

y bydd y cyfeiriad ym mharagraffau 23.1 a23.5 at ddarpariaethau paragraffau 22.2 i22.30 yn cael eu disodli gan gyfeiriad atbaragraffau 23.9 i 23.11.

5. After paragraph 23.13 insert: 5. Ar ôl paragraff 23.13 ychwanegu,

23.14. Nothing in this standing order shall, inrelation to the subordinate legislation whichis Assembly General subordinate legislation,be construed as overriding the application ofStanding Order No. 22 to such legislation.

23.14. Rhaid peidio â dehongli dim yn yRheol Sefydlog hon, mewn perthynas ag is-ddeddfwriaeth sy’n is-ddeddfwriaethgyffredinol y Cynulliad, fel ei fod yn drech nachymhwysiad Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22 iddeddfwriaeth o’r fath.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I remindMembers that this motion needs a two-thirdsmajority to be adopted.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Atgoffaf yr Aelodaubod angen mwyafrif o ddwy ran o dair i’rcynnig hwn gael ei dderbyn.

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Cynnig: O blaid 40, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0.Motion: For 40, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorButler, RosemaryCairns, AlunChapman, ChristineDafis, CynogDavidson, JaneDavies, DavidDavies, GeraintDavies, RonEssex, SueGibbons, BrianGraham, WilliamGregory, JaniceGwyther, ChristineHancock, BrianHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJarman, PaulineJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, GarethLaw, PeterLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMelding, DavidMorgan, JonathanMorgan, RhodriNeagle, LynnePugh, AlunRanderson, JennyRogers, PeterRyder, JanetSinclair, KarenThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWilliams, KirstyWilliams, Phil

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion adopted.

Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion

The Minister for Education and LifelongLearning (Jane Davidson): I propose that

Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu GydolOes (Jane Davidson): Cynigiaf fod

the Assembly, under Standing Order No.6.16, brings forward the motion onapproving the Local Government Finance(Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 7) (Wales)2001, which differs from the agreed business

y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, o dan ReolSefydlog Rhif 6.16, yn dwyn ymlaen y cynnigar gymeradwyo Adroddiad Grant Arbennig(Rhif 7) (Cymru) Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol(Cymru) 2001, sydd yn wahanol i’r gwaith y

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shown in the forward look of 27 March. cytunwyd arno yn y rhagolwg ar 27 Mawrth.

Cynnig: O blaid 40, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0.Motion: For 40, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorButler, RosemaryCairns, AlunChapman, ChristineDafis, CynogDavidson, JaneDavies, DavidDavies, GeraintDavies, RonEssex, SueGibbons, BrianGraham, WilliamGregory, JaniceGwyther, ChristineHancock, BrianHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJarman, PaulineJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, GarethLaw, PeterLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMelding, DavidMorgan, JonathanMorgan, RhodriNeagle, LynnePugh, AlunRanderson, JennyRogers, PeterRyder, JanetSinclair, KarenThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWilliams, KirstyWilliams, Phil

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion adopted.

Cymeradwyo Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 7) (Cymru)Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) 2001

Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report(No. 7) (Wales) 2001

The Minister for Finance, LocalGovernment and Communities (EdwinaHart): I propose that

Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, LlywodraethLeol a Chymunedau (Edwina Hart):Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly, under Section 88B of y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, o dan Adran 88B

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the Local Government Finance Act, 1988,and in accordance with Standing Order No.19.8, approves the Local GovernmentFinance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No.7)(Wales) 2001 which was laid in the TableOffice on 29 March 2001 and e-mailed toMembers on 29 March 2001.

Deddf Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol 1988 ac ynunol â Rheol Sefydlog 19.8, yn cymeradwyoAdroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 7) (Cymru)Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) 2001 aosodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 29Mawrth 2001 a’i e-bostio at yr Aelodau ar 29Mawrth 2001.

Thank you for proposing that, Jane, althoughI thought that I was old enough to proposemy own procedural motions. [ASSEMBLYMEMBERS: ‘Oh.’]

Diolch am gynnig hynny, Jane, er imi gredufy mod yn ddigon hen i gynnig fy nghynigiontrefniadol fy hun. [AELODAU O’RCYNULLIAD: ‘O.’]

I said in my statement last week that I wouldbring forward details on how the additional£12 million that I am making available tolocal authorities in 2001-02 will be allocatedto individual authorities. The special grantreport sets out the purpose, conditions, andthe amounts of grants payable to localauthorities. It also includes some guidelineson how local authorities may operate ascheme. The main focus of the report isAnnex A, which sets out the individualallocations for the 22 local authorities inWales.

Dywedais yn fy natganiad yr wythnosdiwethaf y byddwn yn cyflwyno manylion arsut y caiff y £12 miliwn ychwanegol a roddafi awdurdodau lleol yn 2001-02 ei ddyrannu iawdurdodau unigol. Noda’r adroddiad grantarbennig ddiben, amodau, a symiau’rgrantiau sydd i’w talu i awdurdodau lleol.Mae hefyd yn cynnwys rhai canllawiau ar suty gall awdurdodau lleol weithredu cynllun.Atodiad A yw prif ffocws yr adroddiad, syddyn nodi’r dyraniadau unigol ar gyfer 22awdurdod lleol Cymru.

This figure of £12 million reflects our bestestimate for the number and size of propertiesthat are most likely to be affected, based onthe data provided by the Valuation OfficeAgency. We are keen to help those involvedin agriculture and its ancillary services, suchas blacksmiths, saddlers, food processors, andretailers. We have also recognised thattourism in Wales needs support at this time.We are all aware of the devastating effect thatthe foot and mouth disease outbreak is havingon hotels, guesthouses, pubs, restaurants,activity centres and all other leisure facilities.

Adlewyrcha’r ffigur hwn o £12 miliwn einhamcangyfrif gorau o ran nifer a maint yreiddo sydd yn fwyaf tebygol o gael eieffeithio, yn seiliedig ar y data a ddarparwydgan Asiantaeth y Swyddfa Brisio. Yr ydymyn awyddus i helpu’r rheini sydd ynymwneud ag amaethyddiaeth a’igwasanaethau ategol, megis gofaint,cyfrwywyr, proseswyr bwyd, amanwerthwyr. Yr ydym wedi cydnabodhefyd bod angen cymorth ar dwristiaeth yngNghymru yn ystod y cyfnod hwn. Mae pobun ohonom yn ymwybodol o’r effaithofnadwy y caiff clwy’r traed a’r genau arwestai, tafarndai, tai bwyta, canolfannaugweithgaredd a phob cyfleuster hamddenarall.

We must act quickly to get this money towhere it is needed most. As you can imagine,it is impossible for us to gauge preciselywhich businesses will be hardest hit. I cannotoveremphasise the importance that localknowledge will have in deciding how themoney can be used most effectively. Wemust work in partnership with localauthorities to deal with this problem and Ihave written to the leaders of all county and

Rhaid inni gymryd camau cyflym i sicrhau yrâ’r arian hwn lle y mae ei angen fwyaf. Fel ygallwch ddychmygu, mae’n amhosibl inniragweld yn union pa fusnesau yr effeithirarnynt fwyaf. Ni allaf orbwysleisiopwysigrwydd gwybodaeth leol wrthbenderfynu ym mha ffordd y gellirdefnyddio’r arian yn fwyaf effeithiol. Rhaidinni weithio mewn partneriaeth agawdurdodau lleol i ddelio â’r broblem hon ac

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county borough councils in Wales asking forthem to adopt maximum flexibility whenconsidering requests for support frombusinesses suffering hardship.

ysgrifennais at arweinwyr pob cyngor sir aphob cyngor bwrdeistref sirol yn gofyniddynt fod mor hyblyg â phosibl wrthystyried ceisiadau am gymorth gan fusnesausydd yn profi caledi.

Local authorities have already started todevise and implement bespoke schemes toreact quickly to the needs of businessesaffected in their local economies. In order toprovide local authorities with the flexibilityand legal certainty needed to better respondto the foot and mouth disease crisis, weintend to commence section 2.1 and relatedprovisions of the Local Government Act2000 to provide local authorities in Waleswith a new discretionary power to doanything that they believe would promote theeconomic, social, and environmentalwellbeing of their areas. That power willenable local authorities to undertake a widerrange of initiatives for the benefit of theirareas and the businesses located there thanwould otherwise be the case. The new powerwill come into effect on Monday, 9 April2001. I welcome the speed with which thecouncils have responded to myannouncement. We must now act quickly togive them the resources that they need. Itherefore ask Members to support thismotion. I also announced on Tuesday that Ihave decided to activate a scheme ofemergency financial systems, known as theBellwin scheme, on an all-Wales basis tohelp local authorities deal with the immediateeffect of the foot and mouth outbreak and tomeet any additional costs that they may incurin handling the emergency.

Mae awdurdodau lleol eisoes wedi dechraullunio a gweithredu cynlluniau penodol iymateb yn gyflym i anghenion busnesau yreffeithir arnynt yn eu heconomïau lleol. Ermwyn rhoi i awdurdodau lleol yrhyblygrwydd a’r sicrwydd cyfreithiol sydd euhangen arnynt i ymateb yn well i argyfwngclwy’r traed a’r genau, bwriadwn ddechrauadran 2.1 a darpariaethau cysylltiedig DeddfLlywodraeth Leol 2000 i roi pŵer diamodnewydd i awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru iwneud unrhyw beth y credant y byddai’nhyrwyddo lles economaidd, cymdeithasol, acamgylcheddol eu hardaloedd. Bydd y pŵerhwnnw yn galluogi awdurdodau lleol iymgymryd ag amrywiaeth ehangach ofentrau er lles eu hardaloedd a’r busnesau aleolir yno nag a fyddai’n bosibl fel arall.Daw’r pŵer newydd i rym ddydd Llun, 9Ebrill 2001. Croesawaf pa mor gyflym ymae’r cynghorau wedi ymateb i’mcyhoeddiad. Rhaid inni weithredu’n gyflymyn awr er mwyn rhoi iddynt yr adnoddausydd eu hangen arnynt. Felly gofynnaf i’rAelodau gefnogi’r cynnig hwn. Cyhoeddaisddydd Mawrth hefyd fy mod wedipenderfynu gweithredu cynllun o systemauariannol brys, o’r enw cynllun Bellwin,ledled Cymru gyfan, i helpu awdurdodaulleol i ddelio ag effaith bresennol clwy’r traeda’r genau ac i gwrdd ag unrhyw gostauychwanegol wrth drin yr argyfwng.

Janet Ryder: I believe that we all welcometoday’s Order, and the freedom that it willgive local authorities to help the economiesin their areas. I also welcome yourannouncement on bringing in their powers onwellbeing earlier than was previouslythought. That will give them a great deal ofdiscretion. I also welcome the announcementof the Bellwin scheme.

Janet Ryder: Credaf fod pob un ohonom yncroesawu’r Gorchymyn hwn heddiw, a’rrhyddid a rydd i awdurdodau lleol helpueconomïau eu hardaloedd. Croesawaf hefydeich cyhoeddiad ynglŷn â chyflwyno eupwerau ar les yn gynharach nag ybwriadwyd. Rhydd hynny lawer oddisgresiwn iddynt. Croesawaf hefyd ycyhoeddiad am gynllun Bellwin.

There is much freedom for local authoritiesto support their local businesses in this Order.However, I would like to consider how theallocated money—the £12 million—has beendistributed. Only £700,000 of this money willgo to Anglesey. The North Wales Tourist

Mae llawer mwy o ryddid i awdurdodau lleolgefnogi eu busnesau lleol yn y Gorchymynhwn. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn ystyried sut ycafodd yr arian a ddyrannwyd—y £12miliwn—ei ddosbarthu. Dim ond £700,000o’r arian hwn a aiff i Ynys Môn. Mae Bwrdd

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Board has prepared an estimate of the effectsof the foot and mouth disease on businesses.It estimates that there will be a potential lossto business in Anglesey and Snowdonia of upto 80 per cent of turnover during this year,with a consequential estimated loss of incomeof over £136 million in Anglesey alone. That£700,000 of support will not meet that need. Iknow that this is only one of the measuresthat can be introduced to meet the need, but Iask that you bring a paper to the LocalGovernment and Housing Committee toshow how this money has been distributed.You could also perhaps consider othermechanisms that could be used to distributethe money more fairly so that it goes to areasthat will really suffer as a consequence of thefoot and mouth disease.

Croeso Gogledd Cymru wedi paratoiamcangyfrif o effeithiau clwy’r traed a’rgenau ar fusnesau. Mae’n amcangyfrif bodposibilrwydd y bydd busnesau Ynys Môn acEryri yn colli hyd at 80 y cant o’u trosianteleni, gydag amcangyfrif o dros £136 miliwno golled ganlyniadol ar Ynys Môn ei hun. Nifydd y cymorth hwn o £700,000 yn diwallu’rangen hwnnw. Gwn mai dim ond un o’rmesurau y gellir eu cyflwyno i ddiwallu’rangen yw hwn, ond gofynnaf ichi ddod âphapur i’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thaii ddangos sut y dosbarthwyd yr arian hwn.Efallai y gallech ystyried hefyd ddulliau erailly gellid eu defnyddio i ddosbarthu’r arian yndecach fel ei fod yn mynd i’r ardaloedd afydd yn dioddef yn wirioneddol o ganlyniad iglwy’r traed a’r genau.

This Order is also strictly time limited. As theprobable consequences of this crisis willextend beyond the end of June, the Assemblymust be prepared to come back with furtherOrders to provide support beyond that time. Iask you, therefore, to give a firmcommitment today to that, and to give furtherconsideration to future schemes in ampletime so that there is not a time lag betweenthis Order finishing and any new Orders thatmay need to be brought in taking effect. Ialso ask that you give a firm commitmenttoday to bringing in an Order to raise themaximum rateable value for discretionaryrural rate relief from £10,000 to £50,000 forthe financial year beginning on 1 April.

Mae cyfyngiadau amser llym ar yGorchymyn hwn hefyd. Oherwydd y byddcanlyniadau tebygol yr argyfwng hwn ynymestyn y tu hwnt i ddiwedd Mehefin, rhaidi’r Cynulliad baratoi i ddod yn ôl âGorchmynion pellach i roi cymorth ar ôlhynny. Gofynnaf ichi, felly, roi ymrwymiadcryf heddiw i hynny, ac i ystyried ymhellachgynlluniau ar gyfer y dyfodol mewn da brydfel na fydd bwlch amser rhwng diwedd yGorchymyn hwn a dechrau gweithreduunrhyw Orchmynion newydd y bydd angeneu cyflwyno. Gofynnaf ichi hefyd roiymrwymiad cadarn heddiw i gyflwynoGorchymyn i godi uchafswm y gwerthtrethiannol ar gyfer rhyddhad trethi gwledigdewisol o £10,000 i £50,000 ar gyfer yflwyddyn ariannol sydd yn dechrau ar 1Ebrill.

Nick Bourne: We support the Minister forFinance, Local Government andCommunities, and the special partnership thatshe enjoys with the Minister for Educationand Lifelong Learning in bringing thisforward together. We realised that it was apartnership government, but we did notrealise that there were two partnerships in theGovernment.

Nick Bourne: Cefnogwn y Gweinidog drosGyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau, a’rbartneriaeth arbennig sydd ganddi â’rGweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oeswrth gyflwyno hyn ar y cyd. Sylweddolasommai llywodraeth bartneriaeth ydyw, ond nisylweddolasom fod dwy bartneriaeth yn yLlywodraeth.

On the substance of the Order, we recognisethat it is important that we facilitate thismoney going to local authorities to providethe assistance needed. Edwina will know thatwe have previously given full support tothese issues. I am anxious, however, to

Ynglŷn â sylwedd y Gorchymyn hwn,cydnabyddwn ei bod yn bwysig ein bod ynsicrhau yr aiff yr arian hwn i awdurdodaulleol er mwyn rhoi iddynt y cymorth sydd eiangen. Gŵyr Edwina ein bod wedi cefnogi’rmaterion hyn yn llwyr yn y gorffennol. Yr

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underline that this is a continuum and that wewill need additional money within the three-month period, never mind beyond that. I alsoreiterate the point that I made to the FirstMinister. He was going to have discussionswith the Treasury about the possibility of taxrelief and of this year’s losses for businessesbeing rolled forward. I wonder if we couldperhaps, at an early opportunity, have a freshstatement on all the financial assistance thatis being made available across the board totourism and related businesses throughoutWales, because this is of great concern to allAssembly Members at this difficult time.

wyf yn awyddus, fodd bynnag, i danlinellumai proses barhaus yw hon ac y bydd angenarian ychwanegol arnom o fewn y cyfnod trimis, heb sôn am y tu hwnt i hynny.Ailadroddaf hefyd y pwynt a wneuthum iBrif Weinidog Cymru. Bwriadai gynnaltrafodaethau â’r Trysorlys am y posibilrwyddo symud y rhyddhad trethi a cholledion eleniar gyfer busnesau yn eu blaen. Tybed a allem,efallai, cyn bo hir, gael datganiad newydd aryr holl gymorth ariannol a roddir yngyffredinol i dwristiaeth a busnesaucysylltiedig ledled Cymru, gan fod hyn ynperi pryder mawr i bob Aelod o’r Cynulliadyn ystod y cyfnod anodd hwn.

Peter Black: I also welcome the open andtransparent way in which this is being dealtwith. Issuing the guidelines so early,particularly to councils, but also to AssemblyMembers so that we know to what businessesare entitled, was helpful and is welcome. Ihave a few points. First, I have beencontacted by some businesses that havealready tried to make inquiries about thisparticular hardship relief and have found thatsome confusion exists in councils, eventhough those councils have receivedguidelines. It would be helpful if we couldfind a way of getting information out tobusinesses about to what they are entitled andhow they should apply for it. I wonderwhether it is possible to use the ValuationOffice Agency, or some other method—maybe encouraging local councils—to dothat. That information is important if all thismoney is to be claimed and businesses are toget the compensation and the help to whichthey are entitled. Secondly, I support JanetRyder’s concerns about the way that themoney is being allocated. I know that we aredoing our best in difficult circumstances withthe information that the Valuation Office hasmade available to us. However, is there anyflexibility in the way that this money is beingallocated? If Powys County Council, the Isleof Anglesey County Council or some othercouncil found that the money was beingoversubscribed, could further allocations beproposed? If a council found that the moneywas being undersubscribed, could it bereallocated? That flexibility would be usefuland we could consider how we wouldmonitor that expenditure to achieve thatflexibility. That would also be helpful.

Peter Black: Croesawaf innau hefyd y fforddagored ac eglur yr ymdrinnir â hyn. Yr oeddyn ddefnyddiol cyhoeddi canllawiau morgynnar, yn enwedig i gynghorau, ond hefyd iAelodau’r Cynulliad fel ein bod yn gwybodbeth y mae gan fusnesau yr hawl i’w gael, acfe’i croesewir. Mae gennyf ychydig obwyntiau. Yn gyntaf, cysylltodd rhaibusnesau â mi sydd eisoes wedi ceisiogwneud ymholiadau am y cymorth caledipenodol hwn ac maent wedi darganfod bodrhywfaint o ddryswch yn bodoli o fewncynghorau, er bod y cynghorau hynny wediderbyn canllawiau. Byddai’n ddefnyddiol pegallem ddod o hyd i ffordd o drosglwyddo’rwybodaeth i fusnesau am yr hyn y maeganddynt hawl iddo a sut y dylent wneud caisamdano. Tybed a yw’n bosibl defnyddioAsiantaeth y Swyddfa Brisio, neu ryw ddullarall—efallai drwy annog cynghorau lleol—iwneud hynny. Mae’r wybodaeth honno ynbwysig os ydym am i’r holl arian hwn gael eihawlio ac os bydd busnesau am gael yriawndal a’r cymorth y mae ganddynt hawliddynt. Yn ail, cefnogaf bryderon Janet Ryderam y ffordd y caiff yr arian ei ddyrannu. Gwnei bod yn gwneud ein gorau mewnamgylchiadau anodd gyda’r wybodaeth ymae’r Swyddfa Brisio wedi’i rhoi inni. Foddbynnag, a oes unrhyw hyblygrwydd yn yffordd y caiff yr arian hwn ei ddyrannu? Pebyddai Cyngor Sir Powys, Cyngor Sir YnysMôn neu ryw gyngor arall yn gweld bodgormod o geisiadau am yr arian, a ellidcynnig dyraniadau pellach? Pe byddai cyngoryn gweld nad oedd digon o geisiadau am yrarian, a ellid ei ailddyrannu? Byddai’rhyblygrwydd hwnnw yn ddefnyddiol agallem ystyried sut y byddem yn monitro’r

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gwariant hwnnw er mwyn cyflawni’rhyblygrwydd hwnnw. Byddai hynny’nddefnyddiol hefyd.

12:25 p.m.

The Minister for Finance, LocalGovernment and Communities (EdwinaHart): Thank you for those comments, Peter.Getting the information out to businesses iscrucial. I will consider that and discuss itwith the Welsh Local GovernmentAssociation. If any Members are aware ofany problems that businesses are having inaccessing information through localauthorities, I would be grateful if they woulde-mail me so that I can deal with themstraightaway. As we have made this moneyavailable, we want to ensure that it isaccessible. I say to Janet and to theopposition parties that I appreciate theposition that you have taken on the wellbeingpower. I wrote to the party spokespeopleindicating that we wanted to bring thatforward to give those extra powers anddiscretion to local government. It isimportant that we assess our current positionand I would be more than happy to report tothe Committee—as Janet suggested—whenwe return from the recess. The time issuesthat were raised by Janet and Nick will alsobe important as the crisis continues. If wehave to give additional relief, we want toensure that there are not gaps in provisionand that all the points are covered to dealwith it effectively. I would also be pleased, ifthe Assembly wishes, to give an update afterthe recess on the finance that has been madeavailable and allocated, if that would behelpful to Members.

Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, LlywodraethLeol a Chymunedau (Edwina Hart):Diolch am y sylwadau hynny, Peter. Mae’nhanfodol trosglwyddo’r wybodaeth ifusnesau. Ystyriaf hynny ac fe’i trafodaf âChymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Osbydd unrhyw Aelodau yn ymwybodol ounrhyw broblemau a gaiff busnesau i gaelgwybodaeth drwy awdurdodau lleol, byddwnyn ddiolchgar pe byddech yn anfon e-bostataf fel y gallaf ddelio â hwy ar unwaith. Ganein bod wedi sicrhau bod yr arian hwn argael, yr ydym am sicrhau y gellir cael gafaelarno. Dywedaf wrth Janet ac wrth ygwrthbleidiau fy mod yn gwerthfawrogi eichsafbwynt ar y pŵer lles. Ysgrifennais atlefarwyr y pleidiau yn nodi ein bod amgyflwyno hynny i roi’r pwerau a’rdisgresiwn ychwanegol hynny i lywodraethleol. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn asesu einsafbwynt presennol a byddwn yn fwy nabodlon rhoi adroddiad i’r Pwyllgor—fel yrawgrymodd Janet—pan ddychwelwn ar ôl ytoriad. Bydd y materion amser a godwyd ganJanet a Nick hefyd yn bwysig wrth i’rargyfwng barhau. Os bydd yn rhaid inni roicymorth ychwanegol, yr ydym am sicrhaunad oes bylchau yn y ddarpariaeth ac y caiffpob un o’r pwyntiau eu cwmpasu er mwyndelio ag ef yn effeithiol. Byddwn yn fodlonhefyd, os bydd y Cynulliad am imi wneudhynny, rhoi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf ar ôl ytoriad am yr arian a fu ar gael ac a gafodd eiddyrannu, os byddai hynny’n ddefnyddiol i’rAelodau.

Finally, I say to Nick, do not try to causemischief between Jane and myself. You onlywant to cause mischief because you are notgood at playing politics.

Yn olaf, dywedaf wrth Nick, peidiwch âchreu helynt rhwng Jane a minnau. Yr unigreswm yr ydych am greu helynt ywoherwydd nad ydych yn chwarae gêmwleidyddol dda.

Cynnig: O blaid 46, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0.Motion: For 46, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Bates, MickBlack, Peter

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Bourne, NickBurnham, EleanorButler, RosemaryCairns, AlunChapman, ChristineDafis, CynogDavidson, JaneDavies, DavidDavies, GeraintDavies, RonEdwards, RichardEssex, SueFeld, ValGerman, MichaelGibbons, BrianGraham, WilliamGregory, JaniceGwyther, ChristineHancock, BrianHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJarman, PaulineJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryLaw, PeterLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMelding, DavidMorgan, JonathanMorgan, RhodriNeagle, LynnePugh, AlunRanderson, JennyRogers, PeterRyder, JanetSinclair, KarenThomas, GwendaThomas, Owen JohnThomas, Rhodri GlynWilliams, KirstyWilliams, Phil

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion adopted.

Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I haveaccepted a procedural motion from JocelynDavies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi derbyncynnig trefniadol gan Jocelyn Davies.

Jocelyn Davies: I propose that Jocelyn Davies: Cynigiaf fod

the Assembly, under Standing Order No.6.10, defers the minority party debatescheduled for today to a later date.

y Cynulliad, dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.10, yngohirio’r ddadl plaid leiafrifol y bwriadwydei chynnal heddiw.

This is due to the time difficulties that we Y rheswm dros hyn yw’r anawsterau o ran

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have experienced today following theCabinet statements this morning.

amser a brofwyd gennym heddiw ar ôldatganiadau’r Cabinet y bore yma.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Do 10Members object to that? They do not. I willtherefore put this procedural motionimmediately to the vote as required byStanding Orders.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: A oes 10 Aelod yngwrthwynebu hynny? Nac oes. Felly rhoddafy cynnig trefniadol hwn i bleidlais ar unwaithfel sydd yn ofynnol yn ôl y RheolauSefydlog.

William Graham: May I comment on theprocedural motion?

William Graham: A allaf ddweud rhywbetham y cynnig trefniadol?

The Deputy Presiding Officer: No. UnderStanding Order No. 6.10, we must proceedimmediately to a vote. We will now vote onthe procedural motion

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Na allwch. O dan ReolSefydlog Rhif 6.10, rhaid inni gael pleidlaisar unwaith. Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y cynnigtrefniadol.

Cynnig: O blaid 45, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 1.Motion: For 45, Abstain 0, Against 1.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelod canlynol yn erbyn:The following Member voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorButler, RosemaryChapman, ChristineDafis, CynogDavidson, JaneDavies, DavidDavies, GeraintDavies, RonEdwards, RichardEssex, SueFeld, ValGerman, MichaelGibbons, BrianGraham, WilliamGregory, JaniceGwyther, ChristineHancock, BrianHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJarman, PaulineJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryLaw, PeterLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMelding, DavidMorgan, JonathanMorgan, RhodriNeagle, LynnePugh, AlunRanderson, JennyRogers, PeterRyder, Janet

Cairns, Alun

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Sinclair, KarenThomas, GwendaThomas, Owen JohnThomas, Rhodri GlynWilliams, KirstyWilliams, Phil

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion adopted.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have beencorrected to the effect that the motion couldnot have been adopted if 10 Members hadvoted against it. However, only one Membervoted against it, so I therefore declare theprocedural motion adopted.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Fe’m cywirwyd. Niellid bod wedi derbyn y cynnig pe byddai 10Aelod wedi pleidleisio yn ei erbyn. Foddbynnag, dim ond un Aelod a bleidleisiodd ynei erbyn, felly datganaf fod y cynnigtrefniadol wedi’i dderbyn.

Dadl FerShort Debate

Stres—Ei Effeithiau ar BlantStress—the Effects on the Child

Pauline Jarman: I declare an interest as amember of Rhondda Cynon Taff CountyBorough Council. David Melding and KirstyWilliams have stated that they want tocontribute to the debate.

Pauline Jarman: Datganaf fuddiant fel aelodo Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda CynonTaf. Mae David Melding a Kirsty Williamswedi nodi eu bod am gyfrannu at y ddadl.

The word ‘stress’ is used loosely in languagetoday. As a short-term response to an externalsituation, it can aid mental or physicalperformance, for example in meeting tightdeadlines. However, as a long-termcondition, it has an extremely negativephysical and mental effect on the individual.Stress can be caused by a variety of factors—long-term, short-term or cumulative—such asjob loss, bereavement, relationshipbreakdown, financial worries and so on. Itcan lead to physical illness or further mentalproblems such as depression. Because of thesocial stigma attached to any mentalcondition, individuals rarely seek help andmost may have little idea what services theyneed or whether help is available.

Defnyddir y gair ‘stres’ yn eang mewn iaithheddiw. Fel ymateb tymor byr i sefyllfaallanol, gall gynorthwyo perfformiadmeddyliol neu gorfforol, er enghraifft igwrdd â therfynau amser caeth. Fodd bynnag,fel anhwylder tymor hir, caiff effaithgorfforol a meddyliol negyddol dros ben ar yrunigolyn. Gall amrywiaeth o ffactorau achosistres—ffactorau tymor hir, ffactorau tymorbyr neu ffactorau cynyddol—megis colliswydd, profedigaeth, perthynas yn chwalu,pryderon ariannol ac ati. Gall arwain atsalwch corfforol neu broblemau iechydmeddwl eraill megis iselder. Oherwydd ystigma cymdeithasol sydd ynghlwm wrthunrhyw salwch meddwl, anaml y maeunigolion yn gofyn am gymorth ac mae’nbosibl nad oes fawr o syniad gan y rhanfwyaf ohonynt o’r gwasanaethau sydd euhangen arnynt neu a oes cymorth ar gael.

The seeds of this debate were sown in mymind during February and March, when thecatastrophic events of late winter and earlyspring turned their dark gaze on Wales. I amthinking of Corus’s announcement on joblosses. Our immediate concern goes out to

Dechreuais feddwl am y ddadl hon yn ystodChwefror a Mawrth, pan ddigwyddoddtrychinebau diwedd y gaeaf a dechrau’rgwanwyn yng Nghymru. Golygafgyhoeddiad Corus am golli swyddi.Pryderwn ar unwaith am y bobl a fydd o

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the people who may lose their livelihoods.However, what about the effect of this twistof events on the child or children of thehousehold? Perhaps they feel theresponsibility of this shift in the family’sfortunes. Perhaps they shoulder the guilt,anxiety, frustration, depression and othernegative mental and emotional responses oftheir parents or guardians.

bosibl yn colli eu bywoliaeth. Fodd bynnag,beth am effaith y digwyddiadau hyn arblentyn neu blant y teulu? Efallai eu bod ynteimlo’n gyfrifol am y newid hwn ynsefyllfa’r teulu. Efallai eu bod yn ysgwyddoeuogrwydd, gofid, rhwystredigaeth, iselder acymatebion meddyliol neu emosiynolnegyddol eraill eu rhieni neu eugwarcheidwaid.

Children typically know about the everydayaffairs of their parents. As a parent, you knowthat anything that affects you will, sooner orlater, affect your children as they base theiremotional security on you. Even youngchildren can sense when their parents areupset, and these youngsters become tensethemselves. Living from day to day withstress can be emotionally exhausting. Mostpeople can endure difficulties of knownduration, but living through a protractedcrisis can be much more stressful. How doesthis make children feel? Children are fragile.Who knows how domestic tension can lay thefoundations of insecurities in later life?

Mae plant yn ymwybodol o faterion bobdydd eu rhieni ar y cyfan. Fel rhiant,gwyddoch y bydd unrhyw beth sydd yneffeithio arnoch chi, yn hwyr neu’n hwyrach,yn effeithio ar eich plant gan eu bod yn seilioeu diogelwch emosiynol arnoch. Gall plantifanc hyd yn oed synhwyro pan fydd eurhieni yn ofidus, ac mae’r plant ifanc hyn euhunain ar bigau’r drain. Gall byw gyda streso ddydd i ddydd eich blino yn emosiynol.Gall y rhan fwyaf o bobl ddioddefanawsterau sydd yn parhau am gyfnodpenodol, ond gall byw drwy argyfwng hirachosi llawer mwy o stres. Sut mae’r plant ynteimlo o ganlyniad i hyn? Mae plant ynfregus. Pwy a ŵyr ym mha ffordd y galltensiwn yn y cartref osod sylfeini ansicrwyddyn nes ymlaen yn eu bywydau?

I was further prompted to hold a short debateon this issue while watching, with mygrandchildren, news coverage of sheep andcattle carcasses being burned as a result ofthe foot and mouth disease epidemic. Asadults, we can absorb this horror, or some ofit at least, through our hard-earned and hard-learned sense of self-preservation. Ourcompassion becomes overlaid with anunderstanding of the world and humannature. Children have no such defences. Thesight of cattle and sheep being burned andslaughtered is a profoundly disturbing imagefor any child to grasp and understand.

Fe’m hysgogwyd ymhellach i gynnal dadl ferar y mater hwn tra’n gwylio adroddiadau ar ynewyddion o garcasau defaid a gwartheg yncael eu llosgi o ganlyniad i epidemig clwy’rtraed a’r genau, gyda’m hwyrion a’mhwyresau. Fel oedolion, gallwn dderbyn yrarswyd hwn, neu rywfaint ohono o leiaf,oherwydd ein hymdeimlad o hunangadwraetha feithriniwyd ac a ddysgwyd gennym.Gorchuddir ein tosturi â dealltwriaeth o’r bydac o natur ddynol. Nid oes amddiffynfeyddo’r fath gan blant. Mae gweld gwartheg adefaid yn cael eu llosgi a’u lladd yn anodddros ben i unrhyw blentyn ei amgyffred a’iddeall.

However, my theme today is wider than thosetwo specific issues. It involves children andstress in the wider context. As my theme, Iwill take a close look at the predicament ofchildren in Wales and what AssemblyMembers can do about it. The scale of theCorus announcement and the rural crisis,preceded by a series of job losses in theelectronics industry, has brought the effectsof domestic stress and pressure on families

Fodd bynnag, mae fy thema heddiw ynehangach na’r ddau fater penodol hwnnw.Mae’n ymwneud â phlant a stres yn y cyd-destun ehangach. Fel thema, edrychaf ynfanwl ar drybini plant yng Nghymru a’r hyn ygall y Cynulliad ei wneud. Mae graddfacyhoeddiad Corus a’r argyfwng gwledig, addilynodd gyfres o ddiswyddiadau yn ydiwydiant electronig, wedi amlygu effeithiaustres a phwysau yn y cartref ar deuluoedd â

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with children into sharp focus. phlant yn glir.

People experience stress in different ways.Some people react to stressful situationsphysically. Others have emotional responses.Some respond with changes in behaviour inrelationships. Stress can show itself inphysical symptoms, such as headaches orstomach problems, or in emotionalsymptoms, such as angry outbursts ordepression. Behavioural changes, such asincreased smoking or drinking, can also be areaction to stress. In most people, stressaffects their relationship with others, such ashaving difficulty getting along with peoplebecause of irritability or feelings of sadness.Stress that goes unrecognised and is not dealtwith leads to poor decisions. Relationshipsbetween partners and between parents andchildren also suffer during stressful times, ascan health.

Mae pobl yn profi stres mewn gwahanolffyrdd. Mae rhai pobl yn ymateb isefyllfaoedd llawn stres yn gorfforol. Maepobl eraill yn ymateb yn emosiynol. Mae rhaiyn ymateb drwy newid eu hymddygiad mewnperthynas. Gall stres achosi symptomaucorfforol, megis pennau tost neu broblemau’rstumog, neu symptomau emosiynol, megisdicter neu iselder. Gall stres achosinewidiadau o ran ymddygiad hefyd, felysmygu mwy neu yfed mwy. Ar gyfer y rhanfwyaf o bobl, mae stres yn effeithio ar euperthynas ag eraill, megis cael anhawster igyd-dynnu â phobl oherwydd eu bod ynbigog neu’n drist. Arweinia stres na chaiff eigydnabod ac nad ymdrinnir ag ef atbenderfyniadau gwael. Mae’r gydberthynasrhwng partneriaid a rhwng rhieni a phlant,ynghyd ag iechyd, hefyd yn dioddef yn ystodcyfnodau llawn stres.

Everyday, children live with the effects ofstress. Many families feel under stress due tofamily breakdown and social disadvantage.Some parents also suffer stress because theyhave demanding jobs. Under thesecircumstances, some parents have difficultyforming or maintaining normal positiverelationships with their children. It is our dutyto ensure that advice and support is availableto support not only the children, but also theparents. We are all aware that being a parentcan be hard as well as rewarding work,always mindful that today’s children willshape our future.

Mae plant yn byw gydag effeithiau stres bobdydd. Mae llawer o deuluoedd yn teimlo odan bwysau oherwydd chwalfa yn y teulu acanfantais gymdeithasol. Mae rhai rhieni ynprofi stres oherwydd swyddi anodd. O dan yramgylchiadau hyn, mae rhai rhieni yn profianawsterau wrth ffurfio neu gadw perthynasgadarnhaol gyffredin â’u plant. Eindyletswydd ni yw sicrhau bod cyngor achymorth ar gael nid yn unig i gynorthwyo’rplant, ond y rhieni hefyd. Mae pob unohonom yn ymwybodol y gall bod yn rhiantfod yn waith anodd ynghyd â bod yn waithgwerthfawr, gan gofio’r ffaith mai plantheddiw fydd yn llunio ein dyfodol.

12:35 p.m.

What is the predicament of children inWales? According to ‘Wales’ Children, OurFuture’, the manifesto produced by theconsortium of Barnardo’s, the Child PovertyAction Group, the National Society for thePrevention of Cruelty to Children, Save theChildren, Children in Wales and theChildren’s Society, young people are atgreater risk than others in our society inWales. They are frequently without voice andunable to get their concerns heard. Newlegislation, changes in policy and better co-ordination of existing policies are necessaryto enable young people to grow into secure,

Beth yw trybini plant yng Nghymru? Yn ôl‘Plant Cymru, Ein Dyfodol’, y maniffesto aluniwyd gan gonsortiwm Barnado’s, GrŵpGweithredu Tlodi Plant, Y GymdeithasGenedlaethol er Atal Creulondeb i Blant,Cronfa Achub y Plant, Plant yng Nghymru aChymdeithas y Plant, mae pobl ifanc mewnmwy o berygl nag eraill yn ein cymdeithasyng Nghymru. Maent yn aml yn ddi-lais ac niallant sicrhau y caiff eu pryderon eu clywed.Mae angen deddfwriaeth newydd,newidiadau o ran polisïau a chydlynu polisïaupresennol yn well er mwyn galluogi poblifanc i dyfu yn ddinasyddion sicr, hyderus a

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confident and resourceful citizens. medrus.

What is the solution? We require anintegrated approach that will focus on keyareas in which to create equality ofopportunity for children. Children’s issuesmust be at the heart of government. Policy onnon-devolved issues, such as social securityand youth justice, and primary legislation ondevolved issues, such as education, stillsignificantly affect the lives of children inWales. An overarching strategy for childrenin Wales must be developed within anappropriate strategic framework to ensurethat children are a high political priority andcentral to the Government of Wales’s agenda.

Beth yw’r ateb? Mae angen ymagweddintegredig arnom a fydd yn canolbwyntio ar ymeysydd allweddol lle y gellir creu cyflecyfartal ar gyfer plant. Rhaid i faterion plantfod wrth wraidd llywodraeth. Mae polisïau arfaterion nas datganolwyd, megis nawddcymdeithasol a chyfiawnder pobl ifanc, adeddfwriaeth sylfaenol ar fateriondatganoledig, megis addysg, yn parhau i gaeleffaith sylweddol ar fywydau plant yngNghymru. Rhaid datblygu strategaethdrosfwaol i blant yng Nghymru o fewnfframwaith strategol priodol er mwyn sicrhauy rhoddir blaenoriaeth wleidyddol uchel iblant a’u bod yn rhan ganolog o agendaLlywodraeth Cymru.

We need increased financial support throughchild benefit, income support and theintegrated children’s tax credit. We also needmore well-funded services to supportchildren, particularly the most disadvantagedchildren, to ensure that they have the bestpossible start in life and to help themthroughout childhood. We must eliminatechild poverty by supporting local initiativeswithin a national framework. In light of herrecent budget statement, I call on the Ministerfor Finance, Local Government andCommunities to consider the allocation ofsome of the underspend and unallocatedfunds to set up a children’s fund to redressthe deplorable situation as regards children inWales.

Mae angen mwy o gymorth ariannol arnomdrwy fudd-dâl plant, cymhorthdal incwm achredyd treth plant integredig. Mae angenmwy o wasanaethau wedi eu hariannu’n ddaarnom hefyd i roi cymorth i blant, ynenwedig y plant o dan yr anfantais fwyaf, ermwyn sicrhau eu bod yn cael y cychwyngorau posibl mewn bywyd ac er mwyn euhelpu drwy gydol eu plentyndod. Rhaid inniddiddymu tlodi ymhlith plant drwy gefnogimentrau lleol o fewn fframwaithcenedlaethol. Yn sgîl ei datganiad diweddarar y gyllideb, galwaf ar y Gweinidog drosGyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau iystyried dyrannu rhywfaint o’r tanwariant a’rarian nas dyrannwyd i sefydlu cronfa plant iunioni’r sefyllfa alaethus o ran plant yngNghymru.

The statement made last week by theMinister for Rural Affairs, on his offer tomatch pound for pound any monies publiclydonated to assist those farmers and familiesaffected by the present foot and mouthdisease epidemic to ease the current hardship,was a gesture far short of a lifeline. It isshameful that the Assembly had to beprompted or shamed to match the pace ofspontaneous public donations. The NationalAssembly should take the lead and should bethe public conscience in times of crisis. Ihope that the offer was intended to becomplementary to, not instead of, directfamily support funding.

Yr oedd y datganiad a wnaethpwyd yrwythnos diwethaf gan y Gweinidog drosFaterion Gwledig, ar ei gynnig i roi punt ambunt i gyfateb ag unrhyw arian a roddir gan ycyhoedd i gynorthwyo’r ffermwyr a’rteuluoedd hynny yr effeithir arnynt ganepidemig clwy’r traed a’r genau presennol ileddfu’r caledi presennol, yn symbolaidd ynhytrach na bod o gymorth sylweddol. Mae’nwarthus bod yn rhaid ysgogi’r Cynulliad neugodi cywilydd arno i roi arian sydd yncyfateb â chyflymder rhoddion y cyhoedd.Dylai’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol achub yblaen gan weithredu fel cydwybod y cyhoeddyn ystod argyfyngau. Gobeithiaf ybwriadwyd i’r cynnig fod yn ategol i’r arianuniongyrchol i gefnogi teuluoedd, ac nid yn

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ei le.

No one could fail to be touched by the imageof the young Cumbrian family that is a victimof the foot and mouth disease crisis. Thefamily faces ruin due to mounting bills, nocash coming in and having no money to buyfood for their young children. I have no doubtthat there are Welsh families in similarsituations. The Assembly’s administrationshould give more consideration to setting upa proper fund to address children’s issues,particularly in times of crisis.

Ni allai neb beidio â chael ei effeithio gan luny teulu ifanc o Gymbria sydd yn dioddef ynsgîl argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau. Mae’rteulu yn wynebu dinistr llwyr oherwyddbiliau cynyddol, dim arian yn dod i mewn adim arian i brynu bwyd i’w plant ifanc.Mae’n siŵr bod teuluoedd yng Nghymrumewn sefyllfaoedd tebyg. Dylaigweinyddiaeth y Cynulliad ystyriedymhellach sefydlu cronfa briodol i ymdrin âmaterion yn ymwneud â phlant, yn enwedigyn ystod argyfyngau.

I welcome the appointment of the Children’sCommissioner for Wales. However, I remainconcerned that his powers are restricted toservices devolved to the Assembly. Childrenin Wales need a truly independent championwho can monitor, review and report freely onany devolved or non-devolved issue thataffects their rights and welfare. It remains forus to continue to lobby our Westminstercolleagues to ensure that the recentlyannounced amendment to the Children’sCommissioner for Wales Bill is accepted.

Croesawaf benodiad Comisiynydd PlantCymru. Fodd bynnag, parhaf i bryderu bod eibwerau’n gyfyngedig i wasanaethau addatganolwyd i’r Cynulliad. Mae angenamddiffynnydd gwirioneddol annibynnol arblant yng Nghymru a all fonitro, adolygu arhoi adroddiadau heb gyfyngiadau ar unrhywfater a ddatganolwyd neu nas datganolwydsydd yn effeithio ar eu hawliau neu eu lles.Rhaid inni barhau i lobïo ein cyd-Aelodau ynSan Steffan i sicrhau y derbynnir y gwellianta gyhoeddwyd yn ddiweddar i FesurComisiynydd Plant Cymru.

As the gap between rich and poor continuesto widen, children and young people in Walesare increasingly bearing the brunt of poverty,inequality and social exclusion. Childrenborn in poverty in Wales are likely to beunhealthy and to have a poor education andlimited employment prospects. They are alsomore likely to become homeless, be exposedto crime, alcohol and drug misuse and toexperience abusive relationships.

Wrth i’r bwlch rhwng y cyfoethog a’r tlawdbarhau i ehangu, mae plant a phobl ifanc yngNghymru yn dwyn baich tlodi,anghydraddoldeb ac allgáu cymdeithasol yngynyddol. Mae plant a gaiff eu geni mewntlodi yng Nghymru yn debygol o beidio â bodyn iach ac o gael addysg wael a rhagolygoncyfyngedig o ran cyflogaeth. Maent hefyd ynfwy tebygol o ddod yn ddigartref, o gael eucyflwyno i droseddau, camddefnyddioalcohol a chyffuriau a phrofi cydberthnasaudifrïol.

The Waterhouse report, ‘Lost in Care’,appalled us all. However, home is where thehurt is. Most physical abuse occurs within thefamily. No one could fail to be appalled by arecent newspaper headline that read ‘RollingPin Fury’. The article described a case inwhich a mother thrashed her six-year-olddaughter with a rolling pin, having firstslapped her and her eight-year-old brother inthe face. The mother’s defence was that shewas under extreme stress having to bring uptwo boisterous children. The courts havedealt with the matter and the mother is now

Codwyd arswyd ar bob un ohonom ganadroddiad Waterhouse, ‘Ar Goll mewnGofal’. Fodd bynnag, yn y cartref y caiff pobleu brifo. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o gam-drincorfforol yn digwydd o fewn y teulu. Ni allaineb beidio â chael eu dychryn gan bennawddiweddar mewn papur newydd, ‘Rolling PinFury’. Disgrifiodd yr erthygl achos lle ycurodd mam ei merch chwe mlwydd oedgyda rholbren, ar ôl ei tharo hi a’i brawdwyth mlwydd oed yn eu hwyneb yn gyntaf.Amddiffyniad y fam oedd ei bod o danbwysau eithriadol oherwydd bod yn rhaid

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serving a 12-month probation order. Thechildren have been placed on the childprotection register. What was particularlyworrying in this case was that the eight-year-old boy, who had been slapped harshly formisbehaving, handed his mother the rollingpin, inviting her to hit his six-year-old sisterwith it. What provoked this lad to do such athing? Was he trying to divert the pain andsuffering away from himself? We can onlywonder why and hope that the 12 monthprobationary period will assist in ensuringthat this family, with much support, canrebuild the love and respect for each otherthat is obviously lacking at the moment.

iddi fagu dau blentyn afreolus. Mae’rllysoedd wedi delio â’r mater ac mae’r fambellach o dan orchymyn prawf 12 mis.Rhoddwyd y plant ar y gofrestr diogelu plant.Yr hyn a barodd bryder arbennig yn yr achoshwn oedd bod y bachgen wyth mlwydd oed,a gafodd ei guro’n galed oherwydd ei fod yncamymddwyn, wedi rhoi’r rholbren i’w fam,gan ei hannog i fwrw ei chwaer chwemlwydd oed. Beth achosodd i’r bachgen hwnwneud y fath beth? A oedd yn ceisio gwyro’rpoen a’r dioddefaint oddi ef ei hun? Ni allwnond tybio pam y gwnaeth hyn a gobeithio ybydd y cyfnod prawf 12 mis yn helpu isicrhau y gall y teulu hwn, gyda llawer ogymorth, ailennyn y cariad a’r parch tuag atei gilydd sydd yn amlwg ar goll ar hyn obryd.

All children have the right to be protectedfrom exploitation and abuse and to be keptsafe in their homes, at school and in the widercommunity. Urban and Valley areas in Waleshave seen their communities spiral intodeprivation through unemployment, povertyand lack of investment. Rural communitiesare in crisis. That applies not only to farmersbut also people working in other ruralindustries. Fears of violence, bullying,assaults and drugs all impact with great forceon vulnerable, impressionable and preciouschildren. Children from black and ethnicminority backgrounds experience theadditional burden of discrimination and racialharassment.

Mae gan bob plentyn yr hawl i gael eiddiogelu rhag cael ei gamddefnyddio a’igam-drin ac i fod yn ddiogel yn eu cartrefi,yn yr ysgol a’r gymuned ehangach. Gweloddardaloedd trefol ac ardaloedd y Cymoedd yngNghymru eu cymunedau yn llithro iamddifadedd oherwydd diweithdra, tlodi adiffyg buddsoddiad. Mae argyfwng mewncymunedau gwledig. Mae hynny’n berthnasolnid yn unig i ffermwyr ond hefyd i bobl syddyn gweithio mewn diwydiannau gwledigeraill. Mae ofn trais, bwlio, ymosodiadau achyffuriau yn effeithio’n sylweddol ar blantdiamddiffyn, annwyl y mae’n hawdddylanwadu arnynt. Mae plant o gefndiroeddlleiafrifoedd ethnig yn profi baichychwanegol gwahaniaethu ac aflonyddwchhiliol.

Much work remains to be done in creating asafer environment for our children andidentifying and resolving children’s stress.Symptoms of stress in children that parentsmay notice include school grades going downand teenagers increasing alcohol abuse andsadness. Children often become withdrawnand bitter but some children’s grades inschool go up, because they use achievementin school as a way to cope with their stressfulfeelings.

Erys llawer o waith i’w wneud i greuamgylchedd mwy diogel i’n plant ac i nodi adatrys stres ymhlith plant. Ymhlithsymptomau stres ymysg plant y gall rhienisylwi arnynt mae graddau yn yr ysgol yngostwng a chamddefnyddio alcohol athristwch cynyddol ymysg pobl ifanc yn euharddegau. Aiff plant yn dawel ac yn chwerwyn aml ond mae graddau ysgol rhai plant yncodi, gan eu bod yn defnyddio eu cyflawniadyn yr ysgol fel ffordd o ymdopi â’u teimladaullawn stres.

Steps that parents can take to help children tocope include reducing demands made onthem until they can feel in control, helpingthem to think positively and to turn problems

Ymhlith y camau y gall rhieni eu cymryd ihelpu plant i ymdopi mae lleihau’r hyn aofynnir ohonynt hyd nes iddynt allu teimlodan reolaeth, eu helpu i feddwl mewn ffordd

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into challenges, and aiding them in findingthe right amount of stress because in someinstances it can be a valued friend. Theycould also encourage children to have strongfriendships and take part in activities helpingthem to see how their contributions are usefulto the family.

gadarnhaol ac i droi problemau yn heriau, a’ucynorthwyo i ddod o hyd i’r lefel gywir ostres oherwydd gall fod yn ddefnyddiolmewn rhai amgylchiadau. Gallent hefydannog plant i feithrin cyfeillgarwch cryf ac igymryd rhan mewn gweithgareddau sydd yneu helpu i weld ym mha ffyrdd y mae eucyfraniadau yn ddefnyddiol i’r teulu.

Parenting is the most challenging job thatfamilies face. Child rearing needs to be givena higher status in society and must be valuedand supported regardless of familycomposition, culture and background.

Magu plant yw’r gwaith mwyaf heriol awynebir gan deuluoedd. Mae angen rhoistatws uwch yn y gymdeithas i’r gwaith ofagu plant a rhaid ei werthfawrogi a’i gefnogiwaeth beth fo cyfansoddiad, diwylliant achefndir y teulu.

I applaud Rhondda Cynon Taff CommunityArts’ teenage mothers project, which aims toprovide vulnerable young girls aged 16 yearsand under, who are young mothers orpregnant, who are unlikely to stay ineducation and who are at risk of socialexclusion, with the opportunity to participatein innovative, creative experiences that willraise their feelings of self-worth and self-esteem. The project will explore issuesrelevant to young women such as pregnancy,parenting, healthcare and society, producingan annual magazine for teenage mothersbased on these issues.

Cymeradwyaf brosiect CelfyddydauCymunedol Rhondda Cynon Taf i famau yneu harddegau, sydd â’r nod o roi i ferchedifanc diamddiffyn 16 mlwydd oed ac o dan16 mlwydd oed, sydd yn debygol o arosmewn addysg neu sydd mewn perygl o allgáucymdeithasol, y cyfle i gymryd rhan mewnprofiadau arloesol, creadigol a fydd yn codieu teimladau o hunan-werth a hunan-barch.Bydd y prosiect yn archwilio’r materion syddyn berthnasol i ferched ifanc megisbeichiogrwydd, magu plant, gofal iechyd achymdeithas, gan gyhoeddi cylchgrawnblynyddol i famau yn eu harddegau ynseiliedig ar y materion hyn.

The health and education of children are vitalfactors in ensuring the future prosperity ofWales. Tennyson once wrote

Mae iechyd ac addysg plant yn ffactorauhanfodol wrth sicrhau ffyniant Cymru yn ydyfodol. Ysgrifennodd Tennyson

‘Household happiness, gracious children, debtless competence, golden mean’.

Children need this ‘golden mean’ in which tothrive. I will give you examples of excellentwork in my local authority area, RhonddaCynon Taff, which is breaking new ground inrejuvenating opportunities for children andyoung people.

Mae angen y ‘golden mean’ hwn ar blant ermwyn iddynt ffynnu. Rhoddaf enghreifftiauichi o waith ardderchog yn ardal fy awdurdodlleol, Rhondda Cynon Taf, sydd yn torri tirnewydd wrth adnewyddu cyfleoedd i blant aphobl ifanc.

First, Valleys Kids in Penygraig in Rhondda,which turns the negative into positive throughyouth and community work, helps children tosucceed through play work, makes theimpossible possible through computertraining, offers support between a rock and ahard place with its Bridges communitysupport scheme and gives kids a chancethrough the Artworks programme.

Yn gyntaf, mae Plant y Cymoedd ymMhenygraig yn y Rhondda, sydd yn troisefyllfa negyddol yn sefyllfa gadarnhaoldrwy waith ieuenctid a chymunedol, yn helpuplant i lwyddo drwy chwarae, yn gwneud yramhosibl yn bosibl drwy hyfforddiant argyfrifiaduron, yn cynnig cymorth mewnsefyllfa amhosibl gyda’i gynllun cymorthcymunedol ‘Bridges’ ac yn rhoi cyfle i blantdrwy’r rhaglen ‘Artworks’.

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There is another project that will concentrateon developing childcare places for thestudents of higher and further educationinstitutions in an area of disadvantage, tomeet the increasing demand of the workforceand the prospective workforce in RhonddaCynon Taff. Unfortunately, despite the factthat this comprehensive bid was submitted tothe Welsh European Funding Office inSeptember 2000 for consideration under theObjective 1 programme, we are still awaitingan announcement on whether it has beenapproved.

Mae prosiect arall a fydd yn canolbwyntio arddatblygu lleoedd gofal plant ar gyfermyfyrwyr sefydliadau addysg uwch acaddysg bellach mewn ardal sydd o dananfantais, i fodloni galw cynyddol y gweithlua’r darpar weithlu yn Rhondda Cynon Taf.Yn anffodus, er gwaethaf y ffaith ycyflwynwyd y cynnig cynhwysfawr hwn iSwyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru ym Medi2000 i’w ystyried o dan raglen Amcan 1,parhawn i aros am gyhoeddiad i gadarnhaua’i cymeradwywyd ai peidio.

I hope that this debate has proven that stressand its effect on the child has a dramaticinfluence on the whole social fabric of Wales.One policy idea that I would like theAssembly to adopt is the setting up of afamily and children anxiety network with awebsite or a newsletter. It could be providedlocally or nationally and contain professional,voluntary and statutory agency contact pointsso that young people would understand whereto go and the options available.

Gobeithio i’r ddadl hon brofi y caiff stres a’ieffeithiau ar blant ddylanwad sylweddol argymdeithas gyfan Cymru. Un syniad polisi yrhoffwn i’r Cynulliad ei fabwysiadu ywsefydlu rhwydwaith pryder i deuluoedd aphlant gyda gwefan neu gylchlythyr. Gellidei ddarparu’n lleol neu’n rhyngwladol a gallaigynnwys cysylltiadau asiantaethauproffesiynol, gwirfoddol a statudol er mwyn iblant ifanc ddeall ble i fynd a’r opsiynau syddar gael.

Our children are our legacy and investment inthe future. It is our duty to protect them fromstress and to give their needs the priority theydeserve. What better time to start than now?

Ein hetifeddiaeth a’n buddsoddiad yn ydyfodol yw ein plant. Mae’n ddyletswyddarnom i’w diogelu rhag stres ac i roi’rflaenoriaeth haeddiannol i’w hanghenion. Afu gwell amser i ddechrau nag yn awr?

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Pauline hastaken up all the allocated time, and I shouldnot allow David Melding or Kirsty Williamsto speak. However, if they want 30 seconds, Iam sure that we could make an exception.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Cymerodd Pauline yrholl amser a ddyrannwyd i’r ddadl, ac niddylwn ganiatáu i David Melding na KirstyWilliams siarad. Fodd bynnag, os hoffent 30eiliad, yr wyf yn siŵr y gallem wneudeithriad.

12:45 p.m.

David Melding: I congratulate Pauline forbringing this important matter to our attentionand for using a short debate so productively.

David Melding: Llongyfarchaf Pauline amddod â’r mater pwysig hwn i’n sylw ac amddefnyddio dadl fer mewn ffordd morgynhyrchiol.

I think that bereavement services are ofteninadequate for children and are not targetedwell at them. Other professionals, such asteachers, often have a reduced ability tofollow-up and provide the necessarycounselling in an environment in which thechild feels safe and comfortable. It can alsobe difficult for the remaining parent or

Credaf fod y gwasanaethau profedigaeth ynaml yn annigonol ar gyfer plant ac na chânteu targedu atynt yn dda. Mae gan weithwyrproffesiynol eraill, megis athrawon, yn aml,lai o allu i wneud gwaith ategol ac iddarparu’r gwasanaeth cynghoriangenrheidiol mewn amgylchedd lle yteimla’r plentyn yn ddiogel ac yn gyfforddus.

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guardian to give that kind of support. Peopleoften say that children get over things quicklyor that they seem to be in fairly good shape,without realising that when children reachadolescence, early bereavement could have aserious effect on them. We must rememberthat.

Gall fod yn anodd hefyd i’r rhiant arall neu’rgwarcheidwad roi cymorth o’r math hwnnw.Dywedir yn aml fod plant yn dygymod âphethau’n gyflym neu yr ymddengys eu bodyn ymdopi’n dda, heb sylweddoli y gallaiprofedigaeth gynnar gael effaith ddifrifol arblant pan fyddant yn eu harddegau. Rhaidinni gofio hynny.

Kirsty Williams: Children and young peoplehave reported bullying as a major source ofstress. One in three pupils in schools inEngland and Wales have been the subject ofbullying, one in four have been threatenedwith violence and one in eight have beenphysically assaulted. This results in one in 10pupils skipping school lessons to avoidpotential violence. In events organised by theNSPCC and similar organisations in the run-up to the establishment of the Children’sCommissioner for Wales, children’sworkshops always noted bullying as one ofthe highest priorities that children hoped theNational Assembly and the Children’sCommissioner would address. I trust, nowthat we have a Commissioner, we can workwith him to establish successful strategies tocombat what is, as children have reported,one of the major sources of stress in theirlives.

Kirsty Williams: Mae plant a phobl ifancwedi dweud mai bwlio yw un o brif achosionstres. Mae un disgybl o bob tri mewnysgolion yng Nghymru a Lloegr wedi cael eifwlio, un disgybl o bob pedwar wedi’i fygwthâ thrais ac ymosodwyd ar un disgybl o bobwyth yn gorfforol. O ganlyniad, mae undisgybl o bob deg yn colli gwersi ysgol iosgoi trais posibl. Mewn digwyddiadau adrefnwyd gan y Gymdeithas Genedlaethol erAtal Creulondeb i Blant a sefydliadau tebygcyn sefydlu Comisiynydd Plant Cymru,nododd gweithdai plant bob amser mai bwlioyw un o’r prif flaenoriaethau y gobeithiaiplant y byddai’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a’rComisiynydd Plant yn ymdrin â hwy.Hyderaf, gan fod Comisiynydd gennymbellach, y gallwn gydweithio ag ef i sefydlustrategaethau llwyddiannus i wrthsefyll yrhyn sydd, ym marn y plant, yn un o brifachosion stres yn eu bywydau.

The Minister for Health and SocialServices (Jane Hutt): I also thank Paulinefor using the short debate to discuss animportant issue and I welcome what has beensaid. This debate is appropriate as we had agood debate about mental health earlier thisweek, when the child and adolescent mentalhealth strategy was discussed. That strategyreveals a strong link between excessive stressand the mental health of children and youngpeople in Wales. As Pauline has said, thecauses of stress are varied. She drew to ourattention the impact of crises such as thethreat of a plant closure, as is beingexperienced in communities where Corus hasannounced job losses. We know of the impactthat the uncertainty of such a situation has onchildren and families. There is also stress inrural communities due to the current foot andmouth disease outbreak. However, we oftenonly hear about the experiences of adults, notchildren. It is important that that isrecognised and, therefore, I endorse what hasbeen said.

Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a GwasanaethauCymdeithasol (Jane Hutt): Diolchaf innauhefyd i Pauline am ddefnyddio’r ddadl fer idrafod mater pwysig a chroesawaf yr hyn addywedwyd. Mae’r ddadl hon yn un briodoloherwydd inni gael dadl dda ar iechydmeddwl yn gynharach yr wythnos hon, pandrafodwyd strategaeth iechyd meddwl plant aphobl ifanc. Dengys y strategaeth honnogysylltiad cryf rhwng gormod o stres aciechyd meddwl plant a phobl ifanc yngNghymru. Fel y dywedodd Pauline, maesefyllfaoedd amrywiol yn achosi stres.Tynnodd ein sylw at effaith argyfyngaumegis bygythiad gweithfeydd yn cau, felsydd yn digwydd yn y cymunedau lle ycyhoeddodd Corus ddiswyddiadau.Gwyddom am yr effaith y caiff ansicrwyddsefyllfa o’r fath ar blant a theuluoedd. Maestres mewn cymunedau gwledig hefydoherwydd yr achosion presennol o glwy’rtraed a’r genau. Fodd bynnag, yn aml, dimond am brofiadau oedolion y byddwn ynclywed, nid profiadau plant. Mae’n bwysig y

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caiff hynny ei gydnabod ac, felly,cymeradwyaf yr hyn a ddywedwyd.

Kirsty mentioned bullying as a significantsource of stress and pressure, along with theAssembly’s role, in partnership with localgovernment and the voluntary sector, inensuring that we promote environmentswhere we can deal with the consequences ofchildren’s stress and prevent it fromoccurring. I am pleased that we have anetwork of healthy school schemes in Walesthroughout the 22 local authorities. Schoolsare now developing a culture where they canconsider their own priorities, in terms of theschool ethos, preventing bullying andensuring that there are parent trainingprogrammes in place. These are important, asPauline said, in enabling parents and teachersto work together to help children withbehavioural problems. That is all part of theschool environment. Throughout Wales,partnerships are fostering new projects,which are breaking new ground with childrenand young people. I am aware of the workdone by the pioneering project, Valleys Kids,and on Wednesday, I will visit the Sure Startinitiatives in Rhondda. As we discussed a fewweeks ago, Sure Start can help youngerchildren and their families to reduce stressand improve mental health. Parenting,reducing stress and dealing with its impactand causes, such as poverty, poor housing orlack of opportunity, are all important, andPauline described good initiatives in her areathat aim to do that.

Crybwyllodd Kirsty fwlio fel un o’r achosionmwyaf arwyddocaol o stres a phwysau,ynghyd â rôl y Cynulliad, mewn partneriaethâ llywodraeth leol a’r sector gwirfoddol, wrthsicrhau ein bod yn hyrwyddo amgylcheddaulle y gallwn ddelio â chanlyniadau stres planta’i atal rhag digwydd. Yr wyf yn falch bodgennym rwydwaith o gynlluniau ysgolioniach yng Nghymru ledled y 22 awdurdodlleol. Mae ysgolion bellach yn datblygudiwylliant lle y gallant ystyried eublaenoriaethau eu hunain, o ran ethos yrysgol, atal bwlio a sicrhau y gweithredirrhaglenni hyfforddiant i rieni. Mae’r rhain ynbwysig, fel y dywedodd Pauline, wrth alluogirhieni ac athrawon i gydweithio i helpu plantâ phroblemau ymddygiad. Mae hynny oll ynrhan o amgylchedd yr ysgol. Ledled Cymru,mae partneriaethau yn meithrin prosiectaunewydd, sydd yn torri tir newydd gyda phlanta phobl ifanc. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’rgwaith a wneir gan y prosiect arloesol, Planty Cymoedd, a ddydd Mercher, byddaf ynymweld â mentrau Cychwyn Cadarn yn yRhondda. Fel y trafodasom ychydigwythnosau yn ôl, gall Cychwyn Cadarn helpuplant iau a’u teuluoedd i leihau stres ac iwella iechyd meddwl. Mae magu plant,lleihau stres a delio â’i effaith a’i achosion,megis tlodi, tai gwael neu ddiffyg cyfle, ollyn bwysig, a disgrifiodd Pauline fentrau dayn ei hardal sydd â’r nod o wneud hynny.

Today’s children will shape our future. Wemust work together. It is important that theAssembly tries to bring strands together, suchas the children and young people frameworkfor partnership, which is important for localgovernment in ensuring that our policyresponsibilities are brought together. We aremuch more co-ordinated at service planninglevel, at local level with all the agenciesinvolved and also at Assembly level. We arealso looking at all the grant schemes and howwe can improve the support and funding forchildren’s services. We are reviewing thechildren and family services grant schemeand substantially increasing the money goingdirectly into children’s services as a result ofour budgetary considerations.

Bydd plant heddiw yn llunio ein dyfodol.Rhaid inni gydweithio. Mae’n bwysig yceisia’r Cynulliad ddod â’r llinynnau ynghyd,megis fframwaith partneriaeth plant a phoblifanc, sydd yn bwysig ar gyfer llywodraethleol wrth sicrhau y deuir â chyfrifoldebau oran polisïau at ei gilydd. Mae ein gwaith ynllawer mwy cydlynus o ran cynlluniogwasanaethau, yn lleol gyda phob un o’rasiantaethau perthnasol a hefyd yn yCynulliad. Ymchwiliwn hefyd i bob un o’rcynlluniau grant ac i weld ym mha ffordd ygallwn wella’r cymorth a’r arian a roddir iwasanaethau plant. Adolygwn y cynllun grantgwasanaethau plant a theuluoedd achynyddwn yn sylweddol yr arian a aiff ynuniongyrchol i wasanaethau plant oganlyniad i’n hystyriaethau cyllidol.

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If we look at the children who are most atrisk, we have to look at key Assemblydocuments, such as ‘Working Together toSafeguard Children’ and the ‘Framework forthe Assessment of Children in Need and theirFamilies’. ‘Working Together’ was publishedin September 2000 and it gives guidance toall agencies with child protectionresponsibilities on how they should worktogether to help families and, especially,children before abuse and neglect takes place.You are right to refer back to the Waterhousereport. We have to ensure that we allimplement the Waterhouse recommendationsand that we review the report to ensure that‘Working Together’ is implemented at locallevel.

Os ystyriwn y plant sydd yn wynebu’r peryglmwyaf, rhaid inni edrych ar ddogfennauallweddol y Cynulliad, megis ‘Gweithio ar yCyd i Ddiogelu Plant’ a’r ‘Fframwaith argyfer Asesu Plant mewn Angen a’uTeuluoedd’. Cyhoeddwyd ‘Gweithio ar yCyd’ ym Medi 2000 a rhydd ganllaw i bobasiantaeth sydd â chyfrifoldebau diogeluplant ar y ffordd y dylent gydweithio i helputeuluoedd ac, yn enwedig, plant cyn iddyntgael eu cam-drin a’u hesgeuluso. Mae’nbriodol eich bod yn cyfeirio yn ôl atadroddiad Waterhouse. Rhaid inni sicrhaubod pob un ohonom yn gweithreduargymhellion Waterhouse a’n bod ynadolygu’r adroddiad i sicrhau y caiffargymhellion ‘Gweithio ar y Cyd’ eugweithredu’n lleol.

The new assessment framework document,which will be issued shortly, is important asit covers the full range of children in need,not just those at risk of abuse. It focuses onchild development needs and how familiescan respond to them in the long and shortterm. I hope that we will discuss that in theAssembly. The document demonstrates theimpact that various adult problems and needs,including domestic violence, have on manychildren in Wales and how adult concernsand what happens to children’s parentsimpacts on children’s development. Theassessment framework recognises the linkbetween domestic violence and child abuse.

Mae’r ddogfen fframwaith asesu newydd, agaiff ei chyhoeddi cyn bo hir, yn bwysig ganei bod yn cwmpasu amrywiaeth llawn plantmewn angen, nid yn unig y rheini sydd mewnperygl o gael eu cam-drin. Canolbwyntia aranghenion o ran datblygiad plant a sut y gallteuluoedd ymateb iddynt yn y tymor hir a’rtymor byr. Gobeithiaf y trafodwn hynny yn yCynulliad. Dengys y ddogfen yr effaith agaiff amrywiaeth o broblemau ac anghenionoedolion, gan gynnwys trais yn y cartref, arlawer o blant yng Nghymru a’r effaith a gaiffpryderon oedolion a’r hyn sydd yn digwydd irieni’r plant ar ddatblygiad y plant. Mae’rfframwaith asesu yn cydnabod y cysylltiadrhwng trais yn y cartref a cham-drin plant.

You describe the appalling things that happento children in families and how we mustensure that we have the means andprocedures to enable support for children butalso try to have a preventative approach toaddress important issues. We know that stressexperienced by children has an impact ontheir lives, their opportunities, their ability tolearn, their leisure and that it prevents themfrom growing up as we would want ourchildren to grow up in Wales. We mustencourage agencies and services to worktogether. Pauline is right to say that that goesback to how we integrate our policies inWales. Integration is vital. I was impressedwith the children’s manifesto, publishedrecently by all the voluntary sector agencies.

Disgrifiwch y pethau ofnadwy sydd yndigwydd i blant yn eu teuluoedd a sut ydylem sicrhau bod gennym y dulliau a’rgweithdrefnau i sicrhau cymorth i blant ondbod yn rhaid inni hefyd geisio mabwysiaduymagwedd ataliol i ymdrin â materionpwysig. Gwyddom y caiff y stres a brofwydgan blant effaith ar eu bywydau, eucyfleoedd, eu gallu i ddysgu, eu hamserhamdden a’i fod yn eu rhwystro rhag tyfu yny ffordd y byddem am i’n plant dyfu yngNghymru. Rhaid inni annog asiantaethau agwasanaethau i gydweithio. Mae Pauline yngywir wrth ddweud bod hynny’n ymwneudyn y bôn â’r ffordd o integreiddio ein polisïauyng Nghymru. Mae integreiddio yn hanfodol.Gwnaeth y maniffesto plant, a gyhoeddwydyn ddiweddar gan bob un o asiantaethau’r

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sector gwirfoddol, argraff arnaf.

On rural stress and what is happening atpresent, I met last week with the rural stressinformation service, Cytûn: ChurchesTogether in Wales and the health andagriculture departments to consider the healthand social care issues arising from the crisisin the countryside. I have asked the ChiefMedical Officer and our officials in the socialpolicy division to work on how to respond tothe health and social care needs in our ruralcommunities. In terms of rural stressinformation services, we have launched ahelpline through the voluntary sectorprovider in Wrexham for the whole of Wales.

Ynglŷn â stres gwledig a’r hyn sydd yndigwydd ar hyn o bryd, cefais gyfarfod yrwythnos diwethaf â gwasanaeth gwybodaethstres gwledig, Cytûn: Eglwysi Ynghyd yngNghymru a’r adrannau iechyd acamaethyddiaeth i ystyried y materion iechyda gofal cymdeithasol sydd yn deillio o’rargyfwng yng nghefn gwlad. Gofynnais i’rPrif Swyddog Meddygol a’n swyddogion ynyr is-adran polisi cymdeithasol ystyried sut iymateb i anghenion iechyd a gofalcymdeithasol ein cymunedau gwledig. O rany gwasanaethau gwybodaeth stres gwledig,lansiwyd llinell gymorth gennym drwyddarparwr y sector gwirfoddol yn Wrecsamar gyfer Cymru gyfan.

We will talk to the Children’s Commissioner,who is closely in touch with children andyoung people, particularly about children’sneeds. If the Assembly is going to make adifference, it has to be in the lives of childrenof Wales. We have made a great start withthe Children’s Commissioner but I ampleased to announce today—we have onlyjust agreed this—that the Cabinet has agreedto form a children’s committee as a Cabinetcommittee. As Minister with responsibilityfor children and young people, I feel that Imust have an inter-ministerial approach toensure that we are integrating policies. It willbe the first cross-cutting Cabinet committeein which all Ministers will have an interest.The First Minister will be a member of thecommittee and I will chair it. It will meet forthe first time next week. I foresee that thiswill ensure that children’s interests will becentral to Assembly policy development.This will also help Assembly Committeesand Members to monitor and identify how weare integrating, joining-up and realising thevision that we need for integrated servicesand meeting children’s needs. It will respondto many of those challenges.

Siaradwn â’r Comisiynydd Plant, sydd mewncysylltiad agos â phlant a phobl ifanc, ynarbennig anghenion plant. Os yw’r Cynulliadam wneud gwahaniaeth, rhaid i hynddigwydd ym mywydau plant Cymru.Dechreuasom yn dda drwy benodiComisiynydd Plant ond mae’n bleser gennyfgyhoeddi heddiw—yr ydym newydd gytunoar hyn—fod y Cabinet wedi cytuno i ffurfiopwyllgor plant fel pwyllgor y Cabinet. Fel yGweinidog sydd yn gyfrifol am blant a phoblifanc, credaf fod yn rhaid imi gael ymagweddryngweinidogol i sicrhau ein bod ynintegreiddio polisïau. Y pwyllgor hwn fydd ypwyllgor trawsbynciol Cabinet cyntaf y byddgan bob Gweinidog ddiddordeb ynddo. ByddPrif Weinidog Cymru yn aelod o’r pwyllgor aminnau’n ei gadeirio. Bydd yn cyfarfod am ytro cyntaf yr wythnos nesaf. Rhagwelaf ybydd hyn yn sicrhau bod buddiannau plant ynganolog i waith datblygu polisïau’rCynulliad. Bydd hyn hefyd yn helpuPwyllgorau ac Aelodau’r Cynulliad i fonitroac i nodi ym mha ffordd yr ydym ynintegreiddio, cydlynu a chyflawni’rweledigaeth sydd ei hangen arnom ar gyfergwasanaethau integredig ac er mwyn bodlonianghenion plant. Bydd yn ymateb i lawer o’rheriau hynny.

Thank you, Pauline. This is an importantdebate. I hope that you will see that it hasinfluenced how I, as Minister withresponsibility for children and young people,will take this forward.

Diolch, Pauline. Mae hon yn ddadl bwysig.Gobeithiaf y gwelwch ei bod wedidylanwadu ar y ffordd y byddaf fi, fel yGweinidog sydd yn gyfrifol am blant a phoblifanc, yn datblygu hyn.

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The Deputy Presiding Officer: That bringstoday’s proceedings to a close.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Daw hynny âchyfarfod heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 12.51 p.m.The session ended at 12.51 p.m.