The Charlie Rose Show Session One Charlie Rose · The Charlie Rose Show - 1 - 8/1/07 Prepared by National Capitol Captioning 2820 Washington Blvd. #2 Arlington, VA 22201 1 The Charlie

The Charlie Rose Show - 1 - 8/1/07

Prepared by National Capitol Captioning 2820 Washington Blvd. #2 Arlington, VA 22201

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The Charlie Rose Show Session One Guest: Rudy Giuliani Charlie Rose: Rudy Giuliani is here. He was the mayor of New York City for two terms, from January 1994 through December 2001. After the attacks of September 11th, he became known and loved as America�s Mayor. In February of this year, he announced his candidacy for the Republican nomination for the 2008 presidential campaign. He has been the Party�s frontrunner ever since. He just returned from New Hampshire where he spoke about healthcare. I am pleased to have him at this table to talk about issues and politics. Welcome. Rudy Giuliani: Thank you, Charlie. Nice to be back. You just returned from New Hampshire. It is said, I want to come to politics primarily later, that because of Fred Thompson's entry, you're putting more attention on New Hampshire and Iowa. True? Rudy Giuliani: No. No. No. I don't know if Fred is going to enter or not. We haven't made any choices based on that. Our strategy has always been, from back in January, to -- first of all you got to raise the money. You wish you didn't have to, but you got to get over that and say that's the cards you're dealt. You got to raise the money. So our first emphasis is making sure we have enough money to contest, when you get down to pretty soon, October, November, December, January, all these big states were thrown at us very quickly. California, New York, Florida. Charlie Rose: But those are states in which you do the best. Rudy Giuliani: Illinois, New Jersey. We wanted to organize those, make sure we had a really, really solid organization there so we can win those primaries. And we got started a little later than I guess the Charlie Rose: McCain. Rudy Giuliani: -- John and even Mitt, they both started before we did. So we think we have plenty of time to catch up in both places. I'm now spending a lot more time in Iowa and New Hampshire. We're going to do that for the rest of the year, and we think we have plenty of time to catch up there. We didn't think, if we had not put our organization together in



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those big states, that we would have the time to catch up, and so, you know, that's part of the inside baseball strategy. Charlie Rose: So your campaign is pretty much where you want it to be. Rudy Giuliani: We're very comfortable with it, where it is, you know, a lot of hurdles. A lot of things that can go wrong, a lot of things that do go wrong. A lot of things that go right. But I've been through campaigns like this before, and this is -- obviously, much, much wider scope than running for mayor of New York City, but you have to have spring training to run for president -- Charlie Rose: This will do? Rudy Giuliani: Running as mayor of New York City and being mayor of New York City is pretty good spring training for it. Charlie Rose: You have been slipping a little bit in the polls, in some polls. Why is that? Rudy Giuliani: Well, we have been slipping in some and going back up in others. So I mean we just had won where we were 14 points ahead and we just jumped ahead in New Hampshire and in Iowa, and we haven't spent a lot of time there. Some polls are a little different. I mean they're very -- they're very inaccurate right now. I mean my major goal at this stage of the campaign is to be competitive in every state. I think we are in the primaries, competitive in every state. Charlie Rose: But you're going to win in New Hampshire and Iowa. Rudy Giuliani: That's our goal. And -- but our goal is to be competitive in every state, and then our goal, which I think is different than the people who are running against me on the Republican side, is to be competitive in every state as a general election candidate, which would be something I believe the Republican party really needs. We need a candidate that doesn't have to give away the Northeast, doesn't have to give away the West. The way we have the last three, four elections. Charlie Rose: And you see yourself as that candidate?



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Rudy Giuliani: I mean if you look at polls, the polls -- that's one of the dramatic things that the polls say. Charlie Rose: It is said the reason Fred Thompson is rising in the polls, even though he hasn't announced, is that conservatives are looking for a candidate, and they haven't found one, and Fred Thompson might be it. Rudy Giuliani: Fred is a good man. Fred is a -- got a really good record. Hard to comment on him right now because he's not really in the race -- he�s sort of half in the race, half not in the race. You know, ultimately, I think I have the things that will appeal to the Republican Party as the person they should nominate. I think I have the most experience, executive experience of anybody running on either side. I mean you look at the three leading Democratic candidates, good points, bad points. One thing is clear. They've never held an executive position. Charlie Rose: The top three are senators. Rudy Giuliani: Never run a city, never run a state, never run a business. I've done two of those three. I ran a city -- Charlie Rose: Which state did you run? Rudy Giuliani: New York state. [laughter] New York City is the size of a state. It's the third largest government in the country. And it's about the sixth or seventh budget. And I ran it. I ran New York City under a lot of stress. And I'm not talking about September 11th, I'm talking about way back in, you know, when you used to interview me in 1993 and 1994. And this place was the crime capital of America, the welfare capital of America. These are definable changes that took place in a city where people thought changes could never take place. I think I can do the same thing for America. Charlie Rose: You're talking about a city that's now run by a mayor who also has a good record, has built on what you -- Rudy Giuliani: Yes. Charlie Rose: What's the relationship between the two of you today?



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Rudy Giuliani: Admiration. I admire Mike, I believe he admires me. He makes it clear all the time that I had a lot of success and he's building on that and making his own success. I am very appreciative of the fact that he's been such a good mayor. I worked 24 hours a day, I think people living in the city will tell you that, as mayor of New York City. I dedicated myself to it totally for the eight years that I was mayor. I was very afraid that the changes that I had made, the accountability that I had brought about, the reduction in crime, the total change in welfare, the change in children's services, I thought a lot of that would be negated if the wrong person were elected as mayor. It hasn't been. Mike has preserved those and built on them. For that he gets great credit, and I will always admire him. We have some differences politically, on political philosophy. Charlie Rose: In what? Where are the differences? Rudy Giuliani: I'm not going to emphasize that until Mike is a candidate, but the reality is, overall big picture? I am very grateful that I was -- I told Mike this. I endorsed him when he ran. I gave him an endorsement at a key time in the election. You remember, he was down by like 14, 15 points -- Charlie Rose: Most people think he wouldn't have won without your support. Rudy Giuliani: Well, I have never regretted that endorsement. I never will, because he has done a very good job as mayor of New York City. And I respect that. I know how difficult it is to be mayor of New York City. Charlie Rose: Is his record better than yours? Rudy Giuliani: People get to judge that. His record is very good. I think my record was very good. I don't know. I think we both did a good job. Charlie Rose: Better relationship with the African American community. Rudy Giuliani: In some ways, but, you know, I ran against, twice, the first African American mayor of the city. I was dealing with a lot more stresses and strains, many of which I did away with by the time he took over. So he inherited a different set of problems, a different set of issues that he had to work on. I inherited a set of problems I had to work on. And I think that I, in many ways, left him a situation in which you can kind of build on that. I mean the crime rate down dramatically, places like Harlem going through economic



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regeneration. People focus on Times Square and the big changes in Times Square we brought about. Most people don't focus as much on the big changes we made on 125th street. Those are the changes that I brought about in my administration. Some of the things that had to be done were kind of tough, leaves you with a couple of scars. Mike inherited a pretty good situation there that he could build on and he's done a good job of doing that. And he's had his own set of issues, pluses and minuses. Charlie Rose: He also had the advantage of getting control of the school board, which you did not have, and wanted very much. Rudy Giuliani: Which I wanted very, very much. I thought -- this is probably one difference. If I had control of the school board, I'd do choice. I would do -- I would go big time -- in fact, I tried to do that, in an African American -- predominantly African American area of Queens, with the support of the community, which was to introduce in that particular school board -- New York has 32 of them, a choice program. Because there was some very, very good semi-private, private, and parochial schools in that area, including several Catholic and several Protestant parochial schools. You wouldn't be favoring any one church. We got real close. We lost out by one vote, and it's one of the things I was most disappointed with when I was mayor, because we came this close to being able to do choice for all parents, including African American parents. Charlie Rose: As you well know, because you've heard this a thousand times, how can a man with your ideas and record about social issues be elected or be the nominee of the Republican Party? Rudy Giuliani: Because I think it's about what we agree on. It's about the common ground that we have. It's about the -- you know, Ronald Reagan, my old boss, I've used this a lot, this expression often. It's always been critical to me, this particular way of looking at things. "My 80 percent friend is not my 20 percent enemy." And the major issues of the day change with time. The major issue today is the terrorist war on us. In fact, it's the major issue for Republicans and Democrats and Independents. They may all look at it differently, but that's the predominant issue. And I think that's going to be the big thrust in how people decide who they want for president. I think if you want to look for the second major issue, it's the direction of the economy. The Democrats are sort of helping at least define that for us, and I think I'm helping define it for our side. They want to go in the direction of government. I want to go in the direction of private sector. Big, big difference on, you know, how to handle taxes. They say raise taxes. I say lower taxes. Big difference on government. They say increase the size of government. I say decrease the size of government. These are two of the big core issues that make somebody a Republican. I mean, two of the big things that are inside the soul of people that make them a Republican is strong national defense and fiscal



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conservatism, smaller government to empower people rather than government. I think I'm very strong on both of those, not just in rhetoric and philosophy, but more than anyone else, in performance. You know, George Will wrote a column. I didn't write it for him. George wrote it himself. I agree with him, almost. He says I ran the most conservative government anyplace in the last 50 years, when you look at my record in New York City. Charlie Rose: But that's on economic issues and issues of security. Rudy Giuliani: And those are right now, big issues. And then on the social issues, I try to find common ground. Charlie Rose: [unintelligible] Republican voters who have always, in a sense, dictated or determined the Republican nominee to say we disagree with him on choice, we disagree with him on gay rights, we disagree with him on some social issues. But because we think national security is such an important issue, we'll take him, and because they think we want to win, and he may be the most electable in those important states like New Jersey. Rudy Giuliani: Well, we'll let Republicans decide that, right? We're going to find out. I mean, that's what this whole election, at least this part of the election is about. Pundits, experts have views on that, different ways. I mean, we'll find out. That is going to be my appeal to Republicans, that in fact we agree on so many things that even if there are a couple of areas where we disagree, maybe even on those areas, we can find common ground. I -- when I was Mayor of New York, adoptions went up 135 percent because of the changes I made in the -- in creating the Administration for Children's Services, which Mike has kept and built on, by the way, one of the achievements that I have, and he has, that people really don't focus on as much. Adoptions went 135 -- we just made it a priority to increase adoptions. You get information about adoptions to -- Charlie Rose: The point is, you'd rather have an adoption and not an abortion [unintelligible]. Rudy Giuliani: Give a woman a chance to make a decision with all of the information so the government doesn't -- government doesn't force the decision, which I generally don't like government to do. But government at least can make sure that all the information is available. So in my time as mayor, abortions went down, and adoptions went way up. And I would try to do that as president. I would try to make sure that people got a lot of information about adoption. Charlie Rose:



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What you have been saying is talking about something many people call federalism, which is the relation between the federal government and state governments. And you basically have been saying, on the campaign trail, those kinds of issues, like choice, ought to be in -- and constitutional amendments ought to be in the hands of the state. And you want to give local and state governments -- Rudy Giuliani: I have been -- I have been -- Charlie Rose: -- the opportunity to make those decisions. Rudy Giuliani: I have been -- I have been in that sense a federalist forever, from the time I got out of law school. I believe it's a beautiful thing about our government that allows us all to get along. We've got this play in the system which is that New York can make a different decision than Texas. Texas can make a different decision than Florida about a lot of things. The core functions of the federal government are national security, domestic security. Charlie Rose: But you don't think abortion is a national issue? Rudy Giuliani: Sure it's a national issue. But it may very well -- since it's an issue of conscience for people, a deep personal issue where some people morally believe it's wrong and some people strongly morally believe it's right. My conclusion about that is that government can't dictate and intervene and make that choice. I think -- Charlie Rose: The federal government or the state government or no government? Rudy Giuliani: Honestly, I think -- my own personal view is it's better off if that is left to people to choose. And then what you do is you do everything you can to correctly limit the number of abortions, encourage adoption instead of abortion. I supported the ban on partial birth abortion when it passed and when -- and the decision of the Supreme Court I agree with. I agree with parental notification, but ultimately I think this is not the area where government should be completely dictating. Charlie Rose: Healthcare. Rudy Giuliani: Right.



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Charlie Rose: You just made a speech. Basically you talk about Democrats plans as being socialist plans and you compared them to plans in Canada and Britain and France where they have the single payer system in Canada. Rudy Giuliani: And Cuba [laughs]. Charlie Rose: You have seen Michael Moore's movie, haven't you? Rudy Giuliani: No, I have heard about it, �Sicko.� Charlie Rose: What is it you want to do? You want to give everybody $15,000 tax break in order to go buy insurance. Rudy Giuliani: Yes. Charlie Rose: That's the heart of your message? Rudy Giuliani: No. That's one of the means to getting to my message. My message is that we would be much better off as a country and we�d solve our problem if we had 30, 40, 50 million Americans buying their own health insurance. Treating health insurance the way most people treat auto insurance and homeowner's insurance, making a decision about it, making different decisions about it, doing deductibles. When you buy auto insurance you don't cover your oil change with your auto insurance. Charlie Rose: Yeah. Rudy Giuliani: You do a deductible. It creates a market. It creates economic discipline. And when you buy auto insurance there are incentives to be a good driver. There should be incentives in healthcare. Charlie Rose: But you recognize -- Rudy Giuliani: For wellness.



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Charlie Rose: That some people will not be insured and you're on record as saying I understand that there will be people who will not be insured. What happens to them? Rudy Giuliani: By getting the 30, 40 million people into the market you drive the cost of health insurance way down. It starts to become affordable for a lot of those people who are not insured. Because it's now low-priced insurance. And then when you find out how far down you can drive it, then you use tax credits for some people and you can even use vouchers for other people to get them insured. You do this over a period of time and you can end up accomplishing three things: reducing the cost, improving the quality, and giving access ultimately to everyone. But it has to be done that way. Charlie Rose: But you also recognize that some people will not be insured, you said that. Rudy Giuliani: But then you get them insured. What I said is you don't start off by promising you're going to insure everybody. It's the same mistake the Democrats made with the welfare. We're going to move everybody out of poverty. They knocked millions of people into poverty with welfare. It started off -- Charlie Rose: Free welfare reform -- Rudy Giuliani: Correct. Charlie Rose: During the Clinton administration. Rudy Giuliani: Correct. And even going back to the Great Society. You start off with a system that is going to make sure we get cost down and we create much more accessibility. What is missing from our healthcare is a market system. The tax laws are totally warped in favor of employer insurance or then government -- the choices are employer insurance or the government covers you. Two big mistakes in terms -- Charlie Rose: You want to do away with employer insurance. Rudy Giuliani: Yes. I want to think about it -- this is kind of a way to understand my philosophy about a lot of things. Charlie Rose:



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Okay. Rudy Giuliani: I want to give people a lot of choice. You can keep your employer insurance, but we're going to make it attractive for you to go buy your own insurance, and here's the other thing that we are counting on. Americans are different now than when all this started. A typical American, a young American now, is going to actually work for five to ten different employers in the first 20, 25 years of their career. That's an enormous number of job changes. In the old days your employer got your insurance for you, you could keep it, have it. Now you're going to have to move that insurance anywhere from four to ten times in the first 20 to 25 years of your life. Charlie Rose: None of the Democrats who are in favor of universal coverage use terms like socialized medicine. None of them use terms like a single payer system. I mean, isn't that political language and political rhetoric? But it's not necessary. It's not socialized medicine, is it? Rudy Giuliani: Of course it is. If the government takes over -- John Edwards wants the government to take over your healthcare. That's -- that is the system in France, that's the system in Germany, that's the system -- you read Sarkozy�s book, right, Testimonies? Charlie Rose: Yes. Rudy Giuliani: I have this picture in my mind. Charlie Rose: You know that because you know I did an interview with him. Rudy Giuliani: He was described as the French Rudy so I'm biased. But he -- in his book -- Charlie Rose: Why do you think they described him as a French Rudy? What is it about you that [inaudible]. Rudy Giuliani: Maybe during the time that he was interior minister, maybe because he challenges political correctness. He very directly challenges political directness in his book. I think I did that as mayor. Charlie Rose: I think what might be a similarity. He's running -- he ran for president having not been in the -- he was in the cabinet of an unpopular President, Jacques Chirac, and he won the



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election. First he won the nomination of his party because he was the chairman of the party. Rudy Giuliani: Right. Charlie Rose: And then he won the election. Rudy Giuliani: I like this comparison even better. Charlie Rose: Here's the point though. You are going to have to run if you win the nomination in a general election in which a president of your party is suffering extraordinary low polls because of the war. It is said, even Michael Lubica [spelled phonetically] had a column today in The Daily News, who normally writes about sports. Rudy Giuliani: Right. Charlie Rose: I'm sure you read it, didn't you? Rudy Giuliani: Yes, yes, but that's the area of his expertise more than politics. Charlie Rose: He's better off in sports than politics. Basically he said here is Rudy Giuliani who is soft-pedaling his positions on social issues, and he's trying to slide away -- Rudy Giuliani: No I�m not. Charlie Rose: -- from supporting the president on Iraq. Rudy Giuliani: That's why he's not a good political reporter. I'm not sliding away from the President at all. I'm one of the people that from the moment he announced the Surge, supported it. I have probably been the strongest in pointing out that the Democrats� idea of giving the enemy a timetable of our retreat is horrendous. It's an irresponsible idea, which I think comes about because they don't see the threat of Islamic terrorism in the magnitude that it exists. Four Democratic debates, Charlie, four Democratic debates. Not once did any of them use the word Islamic terrorism. That's kind of strange.



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Charlie Rose: Which you now -- there is a piece that you've got coming out in Foreign Affairs in which you and John Edwards separately outline your foreign policy. You say that's the number one issue facing the country. Rudy Giuliani: But here is why I'm concerned about that. During the Clinton years, we didn't face the threat in an adequate way. I think everyone can see that. And the defense -- Charlie Rose: No everyone. Bill Clinton -- Rudy Giuliani: I think even he would concede that, except you would say he didn't have the knowledge of September 11th. When you look in retrospect, and I'm not faulting Clinton for this -- Charlie Rose: Or suggesting that he should have known -- Rudy Giuliani: No. He didn't know the future, any more than I knew the future. But September 11 happens, now we do know the future. So now we look back on -- we didn't respond correctly to the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. It wasn't just a criminal act. It was an act of war. We didn't respond correctly -- Charlie Rose: And it was linked to -- Rudy Giuliani: Khobar Towers. Charlie Rose: 9/11, you think. '93 and 9/11 have some link -- Rudy Giuliani: I would link all these things together. 1993 attack, Khobar Towers, [unintelligible], Tanzania, the Cole. Inadequate response in every case. In the case of the Cole, no response at all. Now, the answer in terms of this wasn't anybody's fault is, they didn't know what it was leading to. Now you have September 11th, you realize that weakness against terrorism is a terrible mistake. And the Democrats, I think because -- I don't know. Whatever. They just have a different view of the world. Let's say that. I want to go back to that. The idea of -- Charlie Rose: You want to go back to what?



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Rudy Giuliani: I want to go back to not facing this threat in the magnitude with which it exists. That's why they talk about -- that's the only conclusion I can come to, when they announce something like we're going to give our enemies a timetable of our retreat. When in the history of war has any army that's been asked to retreat, been asked to have to print out a timetable of their retreat. Charlie Rose: Let me ask you -- then you should have to answer the following question. Rudy Giuliani: I will. Charlie Rose: How well do you think the war in Iraq is going? Rudy Giuliani: Well, I woke up the other morning and I read the piece by Mr. O�Hanlon and Mr. Pollack, in The New York Times who are from the Brookings institution -- Charlie Rose: Not a right wing organization, that�s right. Rudy Giuliani: Liberal journalists, critics of the war, and what they say is -- Charlie Rose: They had been supporters of the war -- Ken Pollack had been a supporter of war. Rudy Giuliani: Both of them thought it was going very poorly and handled very poorly by the administration. Charlie Rose: Right. Rudy Giuliani: Lo and behold, they come back and they say it may be that we can get to a situation of stability in Iraq and things may be going much better than anyone has been told. Charlie Rose: Is that your point of view? Not Ken Pollack, but yours. Rudy Giuliani: I'll tell you what my point of view is. My point of view is the most important opinion about this war is not mine, it's not Hillary Clinton's, Barack Obama's, or even John



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McCain's, whose opinion I really do respect quite a bit. Charlie Rose: And is there any light between the difference between you and John McCain in terms of the war? Rudy Giuliani: Not much. Charlie Rose: Because many people think he suffered because he's been so strong in favor of the surge, that and immigration has put him in a tailspin. Rudy Giuliani: I don't think it's the first. It could be the second. I don't think it's the first. The reality is that the most important opinion here -- if I were the President of the United States -- Charlie Rose: Is the general in the field. Rudy Giuliani: It's General Petraeus. We all know -- I mean the Democrats love General Petraeus -- before the president put him in charge. They also confirmed him unanimously. I know personally that some of the Democrats consider him to be one of our best generals. And a very honest and honorable man. I would be very interested in his view, when he comes back. And I'd give him the time which is what, middle of September, have him come back. If he said to me, and I was the President, �Mr. President, we can't win this thing. We can't get to a point of stability for the people of Iraq that's going to help us in the effort against terrorism. This is a losing effort.� I'd give that a lot of weight. On the other hand -- Charlie Rose: So you give -- wait stop. Suppose me said, Mr. President, we cannot win. President Giuliani -- Rudy Giuliani: Then I would check that out with other generals and make sure it was correct. If that was correct -- Charlie Rose: So already you�re beginning to say I�ve got to confirm this opinion. Rudy Giuliani: Wait a second. Suppose he comes back and says, like I said to Wolf Blitzer, during one of the debates, this is the only possibility they entertain, that he's going to come back and



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say things are going poorly. Suppose he comes back Charlie Rose: I'll tell you what I think. Rudy Giuliani: If I said to Wolf, Wolf, suppose he comes back and he says things are going well. Are you going to report it? Are you going to report it with the same magnitude and intensity? Charlie Rose: You think he will not? Do you think Wolf Blitzer and CNN -- Rudy Giuliani: I was only kidding, Wolf. But what I think -- I think there is a bias going on about -- and I think that's why this New York Times article was so stunning. I think there is a certain bias going on -- Charlie Rose: [unintelligible] by two columnists, is what that was, by two pundits. Rudy Giuliani: Also backed up by their correspondent in Baghdad who has written similar kinds of articles. Charlie Rose: You're talking about John Burns? Rudy Giuliani: Yes. Charlie Rose: John Burns said that on this show. Basically what he said, if, in fact, there is a withdrawal now, it would be catastrophic, is what he said. Rudy Giuliani: So let's have an open mind about it. Let's give the General a chance to come back and then let's evaluate what he has to say. And if he says -- Charlie Rose: You know what he�s saying already, he�s saying is we're going to need more time. Most people believe what he's going to say is he's already saying it, is we're going to need more time. You'd grant him more time if he said I want more time? Rudy Giuliani: I sure as heck --



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Charlie Rose: And then how long are you prepared to wait out this -- Rudy Giuliani: Honestly, Charlie, I think what a president would have to do, the general comes back, the general tells you, I need more time, the president is entitled to check that out with more people, and then if he agrees with what General Petraeus, then he should support General Petraeus. This is the way our great Presidents have conducted war. I mean Abraham Lincoln fired three generals before he got to Grant. And he couldn't stand his generals until he got to Grant. And we knew that Grant had certain infirmities, but he was a great general. Charlie Rose: So Petraeus is Grant for you. Rudy Giuliani: Without those other parts. [laughter] Charlie Rose: Lincoln famously said -- he said that when Ulysses Grant was drinking, he said I need more liquor for more generals, I think. Something to that effect. Let me just stay with this. Most people say the following. There is no military solution. There has to be a political solution. The Iraqis have to do it. Have to do it. How long can we wait for the Iraqis to do it? That's my question to you. Rudy Giuliani: As long as -- I'm sort of putting myself in the position of the president. As long as the president can honestly say to himself, there is a reasonably good chance of success here. Charlie Rose: How did you define success and when? Rudy Giuliani: How do I define success? This is the other reason I like this article. This is what I have been saying for four years about what is success. Stability, leaving behind an Iraq that will help us -- leaving behind an Iraq that will help us in the terrorist war against us. A terminology that I have been using for several years now, which I notice Barack Obama just used today. Charlie Rose: Okay, let's talk about that Rudy Giuliani: The terrorist war on us. I think it's important to conceive of it that way. This is not



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totally -- this is not totally like all our choices. They are at war with us. We have to consider, how do we remain on offense so that we don't have them prevail over us. Charlie Rose: Do you think we'll be there for 20 years? Rudy Giuliani: I wouldn't -- you know, if you had asked President Truman that, or you had asked President Eisenhower that about Germany or Korea, what would they have told you? I don't know. I don't know what they would have told you. Charlie Rose: But it's okay if it's necessary? Rudy Giuliani: What they would have told you is, we're going to be there for as long as it's necessary to defend the United States? Right? Charlie Rose: Why do you think we have done so badly before General Petraeus arrived, in your judgment? Rudy Giuliani: I think there was several decisions that could have been made differently that weren't. The decisions about the deBaathification decisions, and one that I think was even more serious than that was kind of not paying attention to the quality of life for the people in Iraq. We got the concept of democracy right for them. We didn't get all the rest of it right for them, which is your children going to school, your factories staying open, your city or your community remaining safe. We kind of left that to them, and I don't think we realized that they weren't ready for that, until, until, until quite honestly, I mean, I talked to General Caine -- Charlie Rose: Jack Caine. Rudy Giuliani: -- about this, as you have. A number of times. Until we actually change the strategy, and I think the President gets too little credit for having changed the strategy. You can say, well, he took too long to do it, but the change that he made was a significant one. Charlie Rose: It's a winning strategy, in your judgment, a strategy that you would continue? Rudy Giuliani: I would call it --



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Charlie Rose: The president's strategy -- that Giuliani supports and will continue. Rudy Giuliani: So long as -- so long as the people executing, the people you rely on for that information tell you it still has a reasonable chance to succeed. I am not a person who likes to prophesy defeat for the United States. Charlie Rose: You have said that you are one among the candidates, experts on terrorism because you were former US attorney, you were a former mayor, and you advised other governments on security. Fair enough? Mexico, for example. Did you not? Am I right on all those issues? Rudy Giuliani: Yes, yes, other governments. Charlie Rose: Tell me who it is that when you look at fundamental -- radical fundamentalism or Islamic jihadist fundamentalism, who are you talking about? Tell me who the organizations are, and how you see them. Rudy Giuliani: Well -- Charlie Rose: al-Qaeda, is it a mixture -- Rudy Giuliani: I have my -- first of all, I have my organization. The people that work with me, we do work in the Middle East. Charlie Rose: Right. But who is the enemy? I want you tell me who the enemy is. Rudy Giuliani: One of the people that advises me is one of the biggest experts on Islamic terrorism in the world who is listed in a number of books like Looming Tower and -- Charlie Rose: Who is that? Rudy Giuliani: I'm not sure I'm going -- I'm not sure I can reveal all of the different people who talk to me. But the reality is, it's a subject --



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Charlie Rose: Read Looming Tower, we'll know. Rudy Giuliani: It's a subject -- it's a subject that I have focused on and investigated for a long time. Charlie Rose: Okay. Tell America who the enemy is. Rudy Giuliani: Okay. The enemy -- there is no one organization. It's a number of different organizations organized around the idea of Islamic extremism, Islamic terrorism. Some of them hate each other. Some of them go to war with each other. Some of them have, at various times, killed each other. But they have a certain core set of beliefs that often have them organizing together against us. They are supported by some nation states that include Iran, Syria, several others at different times. And we have to be focused on all of them. Charlie Rose: Okay. Let me just tick off some names. Hamas is part of -- Rudy Giuliani: Hamas. Charlie Rose: -- Islamic terrorism. Rudy Giuliani: Hezbollah. Charlie Rose: Hezbollah. Rudy Giuliani: The Islamic Brotherhood. Charlie Rose: The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Rudy Giuliani: Yes. Has been in the past. They've been involved in supporting terrorism in the past, right? Charlie Rose: Yes.



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Rudy Giuliani: Elements in Saudi -- Charlie Rose: I'm listening to your list. Rudy Giuliani: The elements in Saudi Arabia, not part of the government, but the breakaway elements that organize around the concept of Wahhabism, but they're -- it's not a true reflection of Wahhabism. al-Qaeda, of course, is the primary one. Taliban. Then you've got these other groups that are sort of indigenous groups that like we saw the Fort Dix people -- Charlie Rose: Yes. Rudy Giuliani: -- kind of inspired by it. Charlie Rose: People in the United Kingdom. Rudy Giuliani: People in the United Kingdom, the people who had that sort of -- somewhat premature, but it still was a plan to attack Kennedy Airport, the jet fuel lines that were leading to Kennedy Airport. So these are the people that we kind of have to focus on. I probably missed 15 groups. Charlie Rose: So there are a lot of groups out there? Rudy Giuliani: Right. Charlie Rose: And the strategy to defeat on them on your watch is? Rudy Giuliani: Gosh, of course -- of course, we can't -- we can't leave out Iran. Charlie Rose: But what in Iran? The country is a terrorist Islamic fundamentalist organization? Rudy Giuliani: It's a theocracy, right? A mullah theocracy. There are elements in Iran. And it is described in everything that you see as the biggest state sponsor of terrorism. So they come about the closest to being a major state-sponsor. Syria --



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Charlie Rose: So does President Giuliani would talk to them, to Iran or not? Rudy Giuliani: President Giuliani would talk to them to deliver the following message. �You're not going to become a nuclear power, no how, no way, just not going to happen.� It�s not conceivable. It's not an acceptable situation to think about containment of Iran. They cannot become a nuclear power, and for the reason that I said, because they are a state sponsor of terrorism. And my concern with Iran -- most of the concern when you hear it in these Democratic debates is, when are they going to get missiles. When -- in fact there was one debate in which they were debating whether it would be five years or ten years when they would have a missile delivery system. Well, what is the real risk? The real risk is they�re handing off nuclear weapons to terrorists. So we can�t -- they can't get to the point of being a nuclear power. Should not be allowed. And America should make it very, very clear that there is a dividing line there. There is a line -- Charlie Rose: Is there -- how -- [talking simultaneously] Rudy Giuliani: Will not -- Charlie Rose: How would you do that -- as you know the obvious question, how do you do that beyond -- before you get to the last resort, which is military? Rudy Giuliani: I think you make it clear what the intention of the American government is. You make it clear that this is a -- this is a line that you're not going to allow them to cross. Charlie Rose: Hasn't the Bush administration made it clear, and nothing has happened to stop them from moving forward in terms of the development of nuclear potential? Rudy Giuliani: You know, I don't know precisely what the Bush administration has done. I don't know the internal -- I don't know what the internal discussions have been. I don't know what the discussions have been with our allies. And close to allies, or -- I once described some of the countries as semi allies? I mean, they're allies of ours at one time, and sometimes they're not. Charlie Rose: Would that be France, or who would that be?



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Rudy Giuliani: No, no. That would be more like Russia. Back and forth on different things, they're with us. On other things, they're against us. I think you want to make it clear to them that this is something we're very, very serious about. Because I think if they realize we're very serious about, we will get more cooperation from them in making the sanctions work and makings sanctions work broader than they are right now. I mean, the reality is, if Iran thinks that America is going to do nothing about this, it's going to be very, very hard to have these sanctions work. On the other hand, if Iran thinks that's there is a line beyond which America will not allow them to cross, we have a much greater chance of never having to use military power. Charlie Rose: If you thought that you could sit down with them, with the President of Iran and reason with them and get them to stop trying to make nuclear weapons, would you do it? Rudy Giuliani: If there were preconditions that were met in advance -- Charlie Rose: What are the preconditions? Rudy Giuliani: Wait, wait, wait. Charlie Rose: Okay, sorry. Rudy Giuliani: That would -- I'm not even sure I know what they are. But I'm giving you the theoretical answer to the theoretical question that you gave me. Charlie Rose: Right. Rudy Giuliani: The preconditions would be the preconditions that told you there was a reasonable chance of accomplishing that, which is really the way -- it's sort of the debate that Obama and Clinton have had. Charlie Rose: Right. Rudy Giuliani:



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Really, American Presidents going back to at least to Eisenhower, I can remember, would not sit down at summits until there were a group of issues that were worked out in advance that gave them a -- Charlie Rose: So the Summit would be a [inaudible]. Rudy Giuliani: It gave them a clear indication that there would be a success. Now, some of those clear indications turned out to be right, sometimes they were big failures, but I can't think of an American president that -- I think the mistake that Senator Obama made in answering that question, he didn't pick up on the word precondition. Charlie Rose: Right. Rudy Giuliani: Would you meet with them without precondition? Rudy Giuliani: In the first year. Rudy Giuliani: In the first year. I mean, the answer to that is obviously no, you would not. Charlie Rose: Which is what Senator Clinton said. Rudy Giuliani: On the other hand, if through some miraculous thing that we can't figure out right now there was a really strong indication that they were ready to negotiate, they were ready to negotiate in good faith, you could get a good result, of course any American president then would negotiate, but you do it -- or she would do it with preconditions. Charlie Rose: And the preconditions are? Rudy Giuliani: You and I cannot outline those in advance. They really move with the territory. I mean -- between the Palestinians and the Israelis the preconditions are pretty clear. You know, Palestinian Authority in this case now may be, may be the government in the West Bank saying we recognize the right of Israel to exist. We�ll forego terrorism. We�ll make it clear that we forego terrorism. I would think knowing the Prime Minister of Israel that those would be the preconditions that would have to be satisfied to make it worth it to enter into talks again. So you don't give people false expectations. So you don't end up negotiating against yourself. You go into a situation without preconditions, you can end



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up negotiating against yourself, which is what happened between Clinton and Arafat. That was a negotiation that I would describe as a negotiation in which United States and Israel were negotiating against themselves because Arafat either wasn't serious or couldn't deliver. Maybe even the second. And the reality is they kept giving things away and Arafat never delivered. Well, you don't have a negotiation like that until there are preconditions. Charlie Rose: Yeah, but you don't make an agreement until you deliver something. You set out and say this is what we are prepared to you and if you are prepared to do this we can make a deal. If they are not prepared to do it, you don't make the deal. That's what happened with Arafat; he wasn't prepared to do it. Rudy Giuliani: Sure. Charlie Rose: And Barack went further than any other Israeli prime minister had ever gone in putting stuff on the table. Rudy Giuliani: I think that was discernible several years before. Charlie Rose: Fair enough. All right. Barack Obama said a very interesting thing today in pursuit of Osama Bin Laden. He said the following, if, in fact -- he's in favor of withdrawing all the troops from Iraq, as you know. If in fact, there was in Pakistan a realistic evidence of Osama Bin Laden, a hot target and Musharraf was not prepared go after him, he, as President, would be prepared to go into Pakistan to get him, regardless of what Musharraf did. Would you do that? That's a tough stand against terrorism. Rudy Giuliani: I -- I -- Charlie Rose: Which you have defined as the number one issue as President. Rudy Giuliani: As I have said many, many times, we should redouble and triple our efforts to crush the Taliban and al-Qaeda. Charlie Rose: Even if meant going into Pakistan, which is an ally despite the objections of Musharraf. Rudy Giuliani:



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I certainly would not take that option off the table. You would have to judge that given the circumstances that were presented to you, hey, these things are all to be called on. Is the intelligence correct? Can you actually get him? Are you going to be successful? Will America look foolish because it will make a mistake? There are so many questions that have to be resolved. But if what you're asking me is, would that be an option that's on the table, which is we have a chance to catch bin Laden and we got to do it ourselves because we're not sure if somebody is going to do it correctly, yeah, I think I would take that option. Charlie Rose: What do you think America's reputation around the world is today, today? Rudy Giuliani: America's reputation around the world is mixed. I mean, I have been in 35, 36 countries, 91 foreign trips in the last five and a half years, so probably as much as anyone and more than most, I have been exposed to what is America's reputation. I have defended it in front of audiences as small as ten and as large as 10,000 at times, and it's mixed. I mean, and part of this -- part of what my article in Foreign Affairs is about, we have got to change the nature of how we communicate. We have got to go back to the Cold War, Ronald Reagan era of the voice of America, a State Department that's communicating. Charlie Rose: You want to go on the offense? Rudy Giuliani: I want to go on the offense. I want the people in the State Department to see themselves as advocates for America, so that when America is maligned on a television station in a country, let's not pick on any one country, in a country, the American ambassador is on television, the State Department officials are on television, they're in the newspapers, on radio, explaining that America is a good country, America is a country that has brought more people out of poverty than -- Charlie Rose: I thought that was Sharon Hughes' job at the State Department. Rudy Giuliani: It is, but I think it has to seep down into all the parts of the State Department. I have been in countries in which the ambassador does a really good job of that. And I see a difference. Charlie Rose: Speaks the language. Rudy Giuliani: Speaks the language, gets on television, gets on radio, considers his or her job to be, when my country is attacked, I got to protect the brand of the United States of America.



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And I have been in countries in which the State Department and the ambassador doesn't have a foggiest idea that that's part of their job. They think their job is just explaining to America what this country is about or signing visas, and it's got to change systemically. Charlie Rose: You want to see a proactive ambassador. Rudy Giuliani: I want to see an ambassador who sees himself as, among other things, and most importantly, the person who is making America popular in that country. Why did Benjamin Franklin go to France? Charlie Rose: To get -- to get their support. Rudy Giuliani: To get their support and to get the French to like Americans. Charlie Rose: And did a good job. Rudy Giuliani: And then to get Americans to like the French. But the first one was -- it's like George Schultz when he used to spin the globe around. He'd say to the ambassador, what country do you represent? They would point to India or England, and then he'd say, no, no, no. You represents the United States of America. Charlie Rose: All right. Two last questions, you have to go, you've got other appointments. One, would you close Guantanamo Bay? Rudy Giuliani: No, I would not. Not immediately. Charlie Rose: Even Colin Powell thinks we -- Rudy Giuliani: No. I would go make by own -- Charlie Rose: -- Joint chiefs, Secretary of State. Rudy Giuliani: I would go make by own decision.



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Charlie Rose: John McCain thinks it's a good idea. Rudy Giuliani: Maybe they have been there and they have been able to see and they�ve come to the conclusion it's terrible. I don't know. But I'd go back to the things that people have said about it. They're mixed. I'd want to go see it myself. If I thought it was inadequate, if I thought it was terrible, as bad as some of the reports say, I'd close it. If I thought it was not very much different than an American prison, as other people have said, then I wouldn't close it. Charlie Rose: But even -- Rudy Giuliani: I don't make those decisions -- Charlie Rose: But even -- regardless of what it is, if its reputation hurts America's image -- Rudy Giuliani: First I'd -- first I'd go find out what the truth is. And then I would try to square the perception -- Charlie Rose: Okay. You'd change the perception, is what you're saying. Rudy Giuliani: Isn't that the way we're supposed to operate, if we're for real and we're not just spun around by public opinion and spun around by news reports and -- you go look, you go say to yourself, is this a good prison or bad prison in terms of prisons? I know prisons. I used to run the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Is it like an American prison or is it really a bad place? If it's really a bad place, you close the darn thing immediately. If it isn�t, you go explain to people that it isn't. Charlie Rose: How good is your judgment about choosing people? Rudy Giuliani: My judgment -- Charlie Rose: That's one of the important things a president has to do. Have you chose good associates?



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Rudy Giuliani: I couldn't possibly have had the successes that I had without mostly making that decision correctly. And I'm going back to the time I was US attorney. Have I made mistakes? Have people disappointed me? Have I been wrong sometimes? Have I given people wrong direction at times and they�ve made mistakes? Of course. But I've had a very complete life. I've had more executive experience than anyone running. And going along with that is a lot of successes and some mistakes. I'm fallible in the selection of people, and I wrote about this in my book. But I think the reason I've had any success at all is that I can't put a figure on it, you know, eight out of ten, nine out of ten. I've appointed 5,000 people. And have probably made a thousand really important appointments. And they have mostly worked out very, very well. Some have made mistakes. Some I have been wrong about. Charlie Rose: You and I have talked about this before. Your closest friends say the battle with prostate cancer helped you understand and make you more aware, A, of your own mortality, but -- Rudy Giuliani: You are darn right. Charlie Rose: It pulled you out of a Senate race. Tell me three or four of the things that have changed the way you see yourself and how you would be president. Rudy Giuliani: September 11th. I watched things that day that I never -- my worst nightmares. I never dreamed of things like this. I never saw anything like this in movies. I never saw anything like this. That changed my life forever. It changed the way I perceive life. Philosophically how did it change it? Charlie Rose: Yeah. Rudy Giuliani: A lot of things that would bother me don't bother me any more. I can very often -- sometimes somebody will run into me. I say -- with a business problem or a political problem. I say, oh, this is going to be -- I remember saying this recently. Oh, my goodness. This could be fatal. I sit them down, and I say to them, I have faced several things in my life that could have been fatal. Charlie Rose: This is not one of them. Rudy Giuliani: This is not one of them. It's not even of that magnitude. I think it gives you perspective, and I thought in my case, having had prostate cancer, before having to deal with



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September 11th, was -- if it's ever good to have prostate cancer, it was good. Because I don't think I was as aware of mortality -- my own mortality, my own limitations. I think I became more sensitive as a result of it, more caring about people. It just makes you much more aware of how fortunate you are, and how you've got to be really careful to lead your life every day in a way that you try to help people and help, you know, help to create a better world. Lucky you're here. Gosh. I realized on September 11th, probably sometime later that day, that if I had been, you know, standing two blocks on one side instead of where I was, which I easily could have been. There was no choice involved other than trying to get through to the White House. And trying to organize a kind of a press briefing that Chief Gansy [spelled phonetically] had given me some information about, I probably wouldn't be here today. So that gives you a great deal of perspective. And it gives you a sort of sense that you got an obligation. That's why I think I feel so strongly about dealing with terrorism by being on offense. I don't want to see this happen again. We're not totally in control of that. No matter how many right decisions we make, we make one wrong decision, something like that can happen again. We got to give ourselves every chance that it doesn't happen again. And I simplify that by saying -- by being on offense, we give ourselves the best chance to deal with it. Charlie Rose: What's the toll that running for president takes on you, your family, your third marriage. Your wife has come under attack in magazines. You got attacked because you said you would be pleased if she was in a cabinet room listening to a cabinet debate. Pick up on everything. It is the world's biggest fish bowl to run for president. Rudy Giuliani: It is. It's the biggest price, really. People that you love, people that you care about, get picked on, they get attacked. You would prefer it if they attack you. And you feel, well, I deserve it. This is -- I know that I'm doing this, why I'm doing it, what's at stake. I have been through it before. Charlie Rose: Can you ignore it? Rudy Giuliani: You try to. You try to get above it. You try to deal with it. My wife, I love her very, very much. You asked me about prostate cancer and September 11th. I got a lot of help with both from a lot of really wonderful people, the principle one was my wife. She got me through prostate cancer, got me to understand it. Within an hour of the attack on September 11th, she was at my side, and she just wouldn't leave me. And she helped me organize the family center, she got a lot of help from people in the city like Rolo Kief [spelled phonetically] and Richie Sherrer [spelled phonetically], but she helped to do that. She helped me organize the September 11 charity. We gave out $227 million that we raised to firefighters and police officers. She's absolutely a wonderful woman. So you see unfair criticisms of her, you realize, it's not happening because of her. It's happening because it's a way to get to me.



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Charlie Rose: Because she's married to you, they want to get at her. Rudy Giuliani: And then I could give you other examples of that with family members and close friends. And that's the most painful part of it. Because you feel like they don't deserve that. It's like, you know, somebody wants to fight with you, but they're fighting with your younger brother or something. Well, come and fight with me. You know. Charlie Rose: But there is nothing you can do about it. Rudy Giuliani: Nothing you can do about it. Charlie Rose: You have to accept it as part of the price for running for president. Rudy Giuliani: You have to say to yourself, this is the most important office in the world, and the reality is that all this scrutiny is just going to happen. Charlie Rose: And it's necessary. Rudy Giuliani: Yeah, it is necessary. I'd like to say it isn't, because I'd like some of the parts that I don't like to go away. In reality, it's not going to. People in this country have a right to find out one thousand percent who the heck I am. One of the great strengths that I had on September 11, and the days after that is people in New York City knew everything about me. They knew the good things and the bad things. They knew the successes, the failures. They knew some of the mistakes I�d made in my private life. It was all out there. They knew it all. I didn't have to be anybody different than who I was. And I could just be who I was. And I could lead, I think, effectively as a result of that, not perfectly, but effectively. I think probably the same thing is true in the times that we live in for president of the United States. If they elect me president of the United States, they're not going to get a perfect man. They're going to get a man who has been through a lot. I think as a result of that, I can lead more effectively. Charlie Rose: You tell them your strengths. What would you tell them are your weaknesses? Rudy Giuliani: Oh, gosh. I got so many of them. We're going to be on this show for so long, this is going to be like going to confession.



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Charlie Rose: Give me one. Rudy Giuliani: Look. I've made mistakes of judgment at times. I mean I found the person that I really love and that really loves me late in life. If I could go back and redo some of the mistakes that I made earlier in my life, I would love to do that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry about them, and I wish I had had the wisdom that I obtained later in life earlier. A lot of practical mistakes that I made. You know as mayor of New York, there are decisions that I made that I'd like to go back and do differently. Maybe I'd like to figure out how to have conducted that whole effort to get control of the schools better. Maybe if I had more skills then as a politician that I believe I have now, I'd have done that better. I find you learn more from your failures than you do from your successes. You know, I learned that as a trial lawyer, the cases that I won, I thought I did everything right. The ones that I lost, I'd go back and I'd try to figure out what did I -- the election that I lost, I learned more from than the elections that I won. Charlie Rose: The first race where you ran for mayor and lost. Rudy Giuliani: Yeah. I learned more from that than I did the next one, which was like a big -- a victory, and then a big victory later. And so you grow in life. That's part of being a human being. And I think -- I think one of the good things about this election is we're at the stage where the American people now can have a real relationship with the people running for president, find out who we really are. Do not assume that we're perfect. Anybody that thinks any of us are perfect is mistaken. Any of us that think we are perfect probably shouldn't be president because -- Charlie Rose: But you're also saying that you don�t have to agree with me on all issues, but you have to do what? Rudy Giuliani: You have to agree with me on the core ones, on the ones that you believe are the most important. You know, I try to think about it about the way I decided who I supported for president. I don't know that I have -- I think we've had some great presidents in my lifetime. There's not a single one of them I agreed with completely. Ronald Reagan, I worked for. Ronald Reagan, I probably admire more than any of the modern presidents. I didn't agree with Ronald Regan on everything. I thought he was a very effective leader. He was the perfect person for the time. Maybe would not have been the perfect president ten years earlier or ten years later. He was the perfect president for that time. Charlie Rose: So therefore, why do you think Rudy Giuliani may be the perfect person for this time?



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Rudy Giuliani: Because I think I understand what's at stake with Islamic terrorism as well as or better than anyone. I know how to be an executive. I know how to run things. I've proven that. I don't know that some of the others have proven that. I think that's really important. This is the chief executive office of the United States. I don't think somebody should be elected to it who is going to learn on the job. You've got to have experience that people can go look and they can test. I know how much you learn from having done this before, so you don't make the same mistakes. I think those are the things I'd ask people to look to. And that I'm very much at peace with what they decide in the Republican part of if they decide for me or they decide for somebody else. In the general election, they decide for me or -- all my job is -- and it's an important one -- is just explain to people who I am. It's their job to figure out if I'm the right one to be president of the United States at what I think is going to be a very crucial time in American history. We're going to determine the course we take against terrorism. I think we're going to determine the course we take with regard to our economy. The story I was going to tell you about Sarkozy before is I had this -- as I was about halfway through his book, I had like a little sort of half of a dream. I was kind of dozing off, and I had this image in my mind of Sarkozy in a plane flying to America, and the Democrats -- the three leading Democratic candidates in a plane flying to France. Charlie Rose: You don't like France. Rudy Giuliani: Now? Charlie Rose: Now you love France. Rudy Giuliani: France is one of my favorite countries now. I can't say it was before. But it's become one of my favorite countries. I think -- isn't that the way it is? I mean, when we started this Iraq thing, Britain and Italy and Spain were on our side, and France and Germany were against us. Now Italy and Spain have pulled out. I think the UK is pretty much in the same position they've been in. They're one of our most loyal friends. Charlie Rose: They�re talking about pulling out and they�ll make a decision -- Rudy Giuliani: But the reality, I was very encouraged with Brown's visit with the President. I think whatever they decide is going to maintain a very strong relation with the UK. But now France and Germany seem to be closer to -- a closer friendship with us. And these are the things that happen with democracies. That's a good thing. That's going to -- Charlie Rose:



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It says what happens with leadership, too. Rudy Giuliani: Yeah. Of course. Charlie Rose: Which is one of the tenets of what you are talking about. Rudy Giuliani: Right. Charlie Rose: Leaders change things. Rudy Giuliani: Yes. And they have to. None of us -- none of us can stick with one particular way of doing things against empirical evidence that it's going wrong. You've got to be willing to make shifts and changes. But you've got to have some core to what you're about, too. That was the great thing about Ronald Reagan. He made more changes than most people realize. But the core was there; defeating communism, smaller government, lower taxes, emphasized the private sector. Charlie Rose: Yeah. Rudy Giuliani: He didn't accomplish everything, but he accomplished the core things. Charlie Rose: All right. Rudy Giuliani, a candidate for President, a candidate for the Republican nomination for President. Thank you. Rudy Giuliani: Thank you, Charlie. Always a pleasure and happy anniversary. Charlie Rose: Thank you very much. Thank you for joining us. Rudy Giuliani for the hour. We'll see other Presidential candidates coming to this table in the near future. Thank you. See you next time. [end of interview]

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The Charlie Rose Show Session One Charlie Rose · The Charlie Rose Show - 1 - 8/1/07 Prepared by National Capitol Captioning 2820 Washington Blvd. #2 Arlington, VA 22201 1 The Charlie