WACO TX Negotiation Transcripts

U.S. DEPARTMENTOF THE TREASURYBUREAU OFALCOHOL, TOBACCO& FIREARMS

TAPES # 1, 2& 3

February 28, 1993

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Tape 1!

MR. KAVANAUGH:Sunday the28th of February.

Telephone ringing! Indiscernible female

voice in the background.!

I MR.KAVANAUGH: I'mgoing tomess upthis

gentleman's desk,he's goingto hate agents whenwe

leave this place.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: I dOn't know,

if you leave indiscernible! David's gotour number.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Do they have any activity outthere? !

Telephone ringing!

TELEPHONE OPERATOR:Cellular One customer --

Telephone ringing!

MR. KAVANAUGH:Go out and check Penny with

Phil or Chuck or Krone. I think we might have lost one

of our walkies overthere andthey mayhave it or may

have tore-code all the radio traffic or they're going

to listen to everything we say, so -- well, because the

team might have lost one there. So manymen wereshot

they dropped -- are they -- well, just check for us --

he ain'tanswering.

Indiscernible female voice in background.!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: SteveSnyder,

S-N-Y-D-E-R indiscernible!.

M. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, okay, so and tell Krone

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he needs to make arrangements with the communications

people, you know, Scheidler, to reprogram all our

radios.

Telephone ringing!

MR. KAVANAUGH:

stuff off

corner or

Could you cleanall this

this desk that's not ours and stack it in the

something? Telephone ringing!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Indiscernible!

car Beverly Road.

MR. KAVANAUGH:

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE

out, there's a car going down

find out, there'sa car going

MR. KORESH: I wish

through.

MR. KAVANAUGH:

He ain'tpicking up.

SPEAKER: We need to find

Beverly Road. We need to

down Beverly Road.

you knew what I've been

David, listen now, I --

you've explained them to me and --

MR. KORESH: No, no, I haven't. I've not

even scratched the surface. Just like I told, just

like Itold Jerry, Jerry Gonzalez --

MR. KAVANAUGH:

MR. KORESH: --

MR. KAVANAUGH:

MR. KORESH: --

Yeah.

Robert Gonzalez --

Yeah.

I really likedthat guy too.

I've alwaysloved law enforcement becauseyou all guys

risk your livesevery day, you know.

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MR. KORESH: And --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Let me --

MR. KORESH:

MR. KAVANAUGH:

that. Listen, let me ask

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH=Your, your

can you tell me anything about their

just concerned for --

MR. KORESH: They're, they

am, that's for sure.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Not as bad

MR. KORESH: No.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Is anybody

blood that --

MR. KORESH: NO.

MR. KAVANAUGH: -- that we

get some medical --

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. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, I understand.

I'm so,I'm sosorry that --

David, listen, we, we know

you something.

other wounded men,

condition? I, I

re not as bad as I

as you are?

losing so much

can't help them

MR. KORESH:No, they're,they're bandaged

up. They're up and around.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Have you got them bandaged

up?

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Okay, and you think

they're stable?

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MR. KORESH:Well, yeah, they're upwalkingaround. u

MR. KAVANAUGH: How are you doing? How is

that wound in the stomach?

uMR. KORESH: It's,it's --like I said, it's,

it's bleedingin both directions, you know, the --

MR. KAVANAUGH:Bleeding bad, huh?

MR. KORESH: They got these towels wrapped

around my waist and stuff and, and, you know,

squeeze --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Now see, you

keep -- you got to keep, you know, some -- little

pressure on that because it slows down the bleeding.

You got somebody can help you with that?

MR. KORESH: Well, it's -- the towel's real

tight --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Tight, yeah.

MR. KORESH: -- the tourniquet, you know.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. Anything else hurting?

MR. KORESH: Just my feelings.

M. KAVANAUGH: Your feelings, hey listen,

don't worryabout that. We're, we'retrying to, you

know, get this solved, and -- are you feeling sick or

dizzy or anything?

M. KORESH: That's theway I'vebeen ever

since I'vebeen talking to you, but, you know, feel,

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you know, anyway --

MR . KAVANAUGH:Yeah .

MR. KORESH:But like, you know,like I say,

let's, let'sget somepreachers andteachers andstuffand get -give me acall and, and tell them to show me

the truth, you know?

MR. KAVANAUGH:You know, I, I don't think

there's twoguysinthe world otherthan youand methat can solve this and --

MR. KORESH:I know, see, there you're,

you're doingyour job. Come on,you know,you'replaying --

MR. KAVANAUGH:No, I'm,I'm beingtruthful

with you, David, I, I want it --

MR. KORESH: Oh, come on.

MR. KAVANAUGH:-- I want it to stop and I

know you do too, come on.

MR. KORESH:You knowthere's noway tostop

this until, like I told you, just giveme thecoverage.MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, I --

MR. KORESH:If you let those, if you let

those men,the so-called [cut off and on]let them talk

to me, you knowwhat I mean? Andlet them show methe

seals where they're atin the Bible.

_ MR. KAVANAUGH= Well,you onething, David,

if, if you wouldlet us help you,you know,your

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message wouldcontinue, your word wouldgo out.

MR. KORESH:Look, look, I didn'thurt any

[cut off and on]

MR. KAVANAUGH: I, I understand that.

AMR. KORESH: indiscernible!some ofthe

people that are following shot people, all right?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Let meask you --

MR. KORESH:Now, I'mresponsible forthat,okay? In 1988 whenthe Sheriff'sDepartment wouldn't

get George Roden off the property --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah -- yeah.

MR. KORESH: It was '88, and-

MR. KAVANAUGH:'87, '88,yeah.

MR. KORESH: -- we went down to the Sheriff

Department andwe told them look,you know,we've got

restraining order against him. They're doingbad

things. They dug up one of the caskets out here and

the guywas crazy,thought hecould resurrectpeople.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.

MR. KORESH:And so that stuff [cut off and

on] andthey won'tgo out there. So I hired a guy

namedSam Jones to come outand hewas kindof like a

friend of George, youknow. Andhe tookthe pictures

and we took them back up in '88to the Sheriff's

Department.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Hold on, what's that,okay?

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Hey, David?

MR. KORESH:Yeah? g

MR. KAVANAUGH: I just got the word that --

from the radio people. Okay. Hold on just a second,

I'm talkingto David. If you will give me yourmessage

they will play it.

MR. KORESH=I've gotto, I'vegot to do it.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, they, they said they

don't havethe equipment for that.

MR. KORESH: Well, they do. I deal with

radio audio technology. Transfer from, from waves over

to analog.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Just tell him that

David's gotto -- hewants to do it himself, see what

they can do. All right. That, that -- let

me --

MR. KORESH:And after that, and after that

like I say, you know, I just want to -- they never

would be honest with me before, they never would

confront mebecause whenI first started openingtheyalways ran off --


MR. KORESH:-- started cussing me and stuff,

you know, in a religious way --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: -- you know, and told me I was

crazy and all that, but they'relooking right at a

book. You know if there's aGod in Heaven, they'rein

trouble, now I'm introuble.

MR. KAVANAUGH: David, how are the kids

doing? Anybody -

MR. KORESH:They're, they'reeating rightnow.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Eating? Okay.

MR. KORESH: They, they keep fit --I love

you daddy groaning sound!.

MR.KAVANAUGH: They're prettyscared. I

guess they'rescared aren'tthey?

MR. KORESH: No, they'renot scared.

MR. KAVANAUGH:No scared? Okay. Well, we

don't wantnothing to happen tothem andI kmowyou

don't either [cut of and on].

MR.KORESH: Yeah said something about mean

men, I told them, I said they aren'treally mean men,

they're just,they're justdoing what they --

MR.KAVANAUGH: Yeah.

message.

MR.KAVANAUGH: Dave, do you got somebody

there taking care of you?

MR. KORESH:Yeah, they're- you know,

they're, they're-like I said, we got some nursesand

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MR.KORESH= - because no one like's daddy's

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they've tourniquetme and they, they want to give me

some alcohol and I said no, I, I don't want- I

MR. KAVANAUGH: No, don'tdrink alcohol. No,

that's not good.

MR. KORESH: No, that thins the blood and all

that and --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, you -- it'll, it'll

make you bleed, yeah.

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Don't do that.

MR. KORESH: So --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, we don't wantyou to

bleed. Are you in a comfortable position?

MR. KORESH: No, there'sno comfortable

position, my friend.

MR. KORESH: Can, can you stand up?

MR. KORESH: Only - a little.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Little, well, but don'tit,

it'll -- you'll hurt, okay?

MR. KORESH: The only comfortable position

right now I guess would be six feet under, huh?

MR. KAVANAUGH:No, buddy, hey, that'snot,

that's not it.

MR. KORESH:Hey, that's,that's whatthey'd

do to me anywayif no one listens to my message.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey --

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MR. KORESH: Come on, it'safederal crime, I

know the laws,_I agree with the laws. I believe bad

guys need tobe dealt with. There'stoomuch bullshit

inthe world, okay? There's toomany people that

molest children, too many people that hurt people for

their own selfish gain, all right?

MR. KAVANAUGH: Right.

MR. KORESH: They need tobe dealt with.

That's whatRome-- at least Rome got, got their crime

rate way down, they crucified people, they made an

example of them. But, you know, some,some --

MR. KAVANAUGH: David --

MR. KORESH:--some of the times they

misjudged, you know, and those are thepeople

indiscernible! to hear the prayer of Christ for

indiscernible! all my life I never knew whatI was

doing indiscernible! if you ever get a kingdombased

upon indiscernible! ignorance please remember

indiscernible!

MR. KAVANAUGH: David, I understand --

MR. KORESH:And I said to them,I says, I

say unto toyou today you should be with me in

paradise.

MR. KAVANAUGH: David, I understand and I

believe you, but I wantto knowwhatdo you think, how

could we resolve this?I mean, how could we save these

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children and women andeverybody who--I mean, howcan

we stopanymore ofthis and come on,youandme can doit -

MR. KORESH: Why did you start the war?

MR.KAVANAUGH: -you and me can do it.

MR. KORESH:Why didyou start the war? Why?

MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, David, I,

1--

MR. KORESH:Ignorance, right? Man, you know

indiscernible!

MR.KAVANAUGH: -- you, you understand --

MR.KORESH: -you are the bad guys, now you

found out we are indiscernible! okay?

MR. KAVANAUGH:No, you'renot the bad guys,

you, you, you understand --

MR. KORESH:Look, my father - I know you

don't [cutoff and on] Godsaid I'mgoing to bring a

flood and the world said no you aren't,andit came.

And Godsaid I'mnot going to bring a flood and the

world says yes you will and they built this tower

indiscernible! the Tower ofBabel, Towerof Babel, andbabel means confusion.

MR. KAVANAUGH: I understand.

MR.KORESH: Indiscernible! working together

trying to plan, plan a salvation against the next

coming floodand Godsaid no so he went andchanged

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their languages andconfounded their, their words and

sent them to different parts of the then known land and

divided the nations. That'swhy all nations look like

apuzzle; they once fit together.

MR. KAVANAUGH:David, I'm-- if -I'm,I'rn

not having much luck with this radio station. Let me

ask you something --

MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! coming up now?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Huh? I'msorry? Nobody

should becoming up. Nobody's comingup.

MR. KORESH: Oh indiscernible! like I

said --

MR. KAVANAUGH:Now listen, let me ask youthis --

MR. KORESH: The only --

MR. KAVANAUGH:I, I'mhaving ~-

MR. KORESH:They're stillcoming, my friend.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Who is?

MR. KOREsH=The, the agents.

MR. KAVANAUGH:No, there are no agents

coming.

MR. KORESH: Yes, they are.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Nobody's --- <

MR. KORESH:We're watchingthem get closerand closer.

MR. KAVANAUGH:No, we- they were, they '

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were pulling back to the highway. They're, they're

DOC --

MR. KORRSH:No, they'renot, they'regoing

down Double-E.

MR. KAVANAUGH: David, I want you to listen

to the radio.

MR. KORESH: He has a white truck, armored,

huh?

MR. KAVANAUGH: I want you to listen to the

radio station at 4:55. We're, we'regoing to put a

message onfor you, but if you want your scripture

message and your word to get out, if you'll tellme I'm

going to try to get it on there. Now, Iunderstand

that it'snot the best, the best would be for you to be

on there. I understand that and Iappreciate and I

respect it. But I'vegot to be truthful with you: I

can't --I'm notgoing to trick you and I'mhaving a

lot of trouble doing that. If you will dictane it to

me I guarantee you Iwill have this guy put it out as

your words, okay? Work with me and, and let's putit

out. I mean, and, and then we can talk about maybe

some of the wounded coming out.

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Let's doit, come on, you and

me can solve this.

MR. KORESH=Okay. Like I say, I told you

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before, God didn't saynothing in heaven, right?

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Gave

the book to who? To the indiscernible! to the

indiscernible! right?

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, I understand.

MR. KORESH: Okay. Now --

MR.

word-for-word what you want -- wanted to say.

MR. KORESH: Okay.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Word-for-word

and --

MR. KORESH: Isa truck coming in?

MR. KAVANAUGH: Nobodys coming, I,

you my word.

MR. KORESH: Military coming in?MR.

road there'severybody but they're notcoming

nothing, you have my word on it. If you tell

you want to sayand I'm goingto get itout.

me word-for-word. You want to talk the seven

first?

MR. KORESH: Word on the word.

KAVANAUGH: Now, now, you got to give me

I give

KAVANAUGH: Nobody -- well, I mean on the

at you,

me what

Now, give

seals

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Go ahead. Slow now, I

got to write it.

MR. KORESH: Okay. My, my God, who sitson

the throne --

MR. KAVANAUGH: My Father, my God, wait a

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minute, sits

MR.

MR.

MR

MR. KAVANAUGH:

MR.

MR.

MR. KAVANAUGH:

MR.

MR. KAVANAUGH:

MR.

MR.

MR.

MR.

MR.

MR.

on the throne --

Has

MR. KORESH: --Of

KAVANAUGH:

KORESH: In

KORESH: --thi

KORESH: --

MR. KAVANAUGH: --

MR. KORESH= -- is

MR. KAVANAUGH: Is

MR. KORESH: -- as

KAVANAUGH:

KORESH: --

KAVANAUGH:

KORESH: In Heaven.

KAVANAUGH: Okay. All right.

.KORESH: Given me a book --

given me abook.

seven seals.

Seven seals. Okay.

Revelation 10, verse

Revelation 10, verse

ssealed book

Sealed book --

the mystery of God.

the mystery of God

to be finished --

to be finished

God has declared

God has declared

What is --

KORESH: Revelation 22 --

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7.

to his servants the prophets

KAVANAUGH: David, just -- I just want --

what does that mean, Revelation, this sealed bbok,

mystery of God, oh, you know -- you have the sealed

book?

MR. KORESH:Yeah, that'swhat I was opening

MR. KAVANAUGH:Oh, okay. I'm sorry.Go

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ahead.

MR. KORESH: In Revelation 22 --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum. Okay.

MR. KORESH: -- I come --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Every word which is the book

is with me.

MR. KORESH:To give unto every man --

MR. KAVANAUGH:Give unto every man. Okay.

MR. KORESH: -- the knowledge of the seven

seals.

MR. KAVANAUGH: The knowledge of the seven

seals. Okay. Is that all?

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Now listen buddy,

you've got,you've gotto hang in there for me. I

don't wantyou to faint now. Can -- you needto get

those towels changed?

MR. KORESH: Ah --

MR. KAVANAUGH:Why don'tyou -- do you --

don'thangup.

MR. KORESH: N0.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Just check with your nurses.

Do you want to change and we can just --

MR. KORESH: I've gotmore blankets here.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. You got some blankets?

Okay. All right. Now, I'm goingto read this back to

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you, okay? '

MR. KORESH: Okay.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Because, you know, I'm just

not the greatest writer. I'm goingto read this back

to you and you tell me if there'sanything you want to

change or if it'swhat you want, okay? All right. You

ready?

MR.KORESH: Okay.

MR.KAVANAUGH: My Father, my God, who sits

on the throne in Heavenhasgiven me a book of seven

seals. In Revelation 10, verse 7, this sealed book,

the mystery of God, is to be finished asGod,has

declared to his servants the prophets. In Revelation

22, I --

MR.KORESH: Come.

MR. KAVANAUGH: -- come my reward which is

the book is with me to give unto every man the

knowledge ofthe seven seals. Now, should I say this

message was from David Koresh?

MR. KORESH: David Koresh.

MR. KAVANAUGH: David Koresh.

MR.KORESH: David Koresh.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Koresh.

MR.KORESH: Koresh.

MR.KAVANAUGH: Okay. Now, I'm goingto get

thison, and let'syou and me agree [gap]

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MR] KORESH: What radio station is it going

to be on?

MR. KAVANAUGH: It's going to be on 1080 in,

in one minute.

MR. KORESH:Anybody, anybodyknow

MR. KAVANAUGH: No, wait, hold on, hold on

just aminute, David, hold on.

MR. KORESH: Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: Let me cut a

deal before you play it. Don'tplay it yet.

MR. KORESH: 1080 --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey listen, there'samessage

coming on in one minute on, on 1080 for you, and the

reason - we want to give you our word, we've told the

media that and that we're notgoing to come, there's--

no more agents are coming and, and I want you to hear

itfrom them and you know that theyknow we - you

know, everybody knows whatATP said and what you said,

that we'regoing to try to settle itpeacefully, okay?

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Can you -do you have a

radio there?

MR. KORESH: That's - I'm getting one now.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Get one -- he's

getting theradio. Okay, good. 1080 AM, David.

MR. KORESH: Indiscernible!

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MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, well --

MR. KORESH: You guys have to go a -- it's

kind of, it's kindof hard to have to do what you all

got to do and --

MR. KAVANAUGH: No, I have --

MR. KORESH: I know your destinations

heaven.

MR. KAVANAUGH: I've, I've,I've beenout in

the woods and I'vehad that happen to me [cut off and

on] raiding a moonshine still.

MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH: You know, we used no catch

those old boys making a little whiskey?

MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH: And what, what part of the

country are you from?

MR. KORESH: I was born in Houston.

MR. KAVANAUGH= Houston, yeah.

MR. KORBSH: And there's, there's batteries

in there. I was born in Houston, raised in the Dallas

area.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, yeah, yeah.

MR.KORESH: Texas boy --

M. KAVANAUGH: Texas boy.

M. KORESH: -- horses.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Horses, yeah.

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MR. KORESH: You know about those Four Horses

in the Revelation.

MR. KAVANAUGH: The Four Horses from --

MR. KORESH: That's right, the horses go to

and fro the earth and the heathen are at ease. They

don't care about them.

MR. KAVANAUGH: The Four Horses of the

Apocalypse.

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Is that right? ,

MR. KORESH: The Revelation, the Apocalypse,

yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Horse is an interesting

animal.

MR. KORESH: Well, the thing of it is is

there's atruth about them in the Bible.

MR. KAVANAUGH: I don'tknow. My wife used

to have some and she loves horses.

MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah. You should see the

horses where I come from.

MR. KAVANAUGH= Beautiful?

MR. KORESH: Gigantic, massive.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, David, on thisvmessage,

I'm, I'mworking on the -- you should be hearimg this

one any minute if you can get your radio on.

MR. KORESH: Can someone, can someone turn

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the --

MR.KAVANAUGH: 1080 AM -- 1080. I

MR.KORESH: 1080 AM. Tellhim to play it

once or twice if we don'tcatch it.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, tellthem to play it a

couple times if you don't ~-tellthem to play t a

couple times so he can hear it.

MR.KORESH: Is it a Country and Western

station or --

MR. KAVANAUGH:1080, it'sKRLD, yeah, it's

kind of a -~ letme turn this radio on, David, andsee

if I can get --

MR.KORESH: Okay. It's on now.

MR. KAVANAUGH: It's on?Okay, good.

MR KORESH: Pick it up. My name is Koresh,~

Ytell them Koresh.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Tellthem that his nqme is --

tellthem David's nameis Koresh.

MR.KORESH: Yeah.

MR.KAVANAUGH: Koresh. Get it right.

MR. KORESH: Pick it up louder.

MR.KAVANAUGH: Here it is.

RADIO BROADCASTER: Indiscernible!

negotiations are going on and both parties are seeking

a peaceful resolution to the situation.

O MR.KAVANAUGH:Callhim David Koresh,it's

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moments.

hear me?

you.

for me?

important.

situation.

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RADIO BROADCASTER: Negotiations are

continuing. I'll be back with you in just a few

Join us at 5:05 with full details --

MR. KAVANAUGH: David?

MR. KORESH: Sir?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Now listen, he.- they

kept their word.Now, the only thing is they didn't--

MR. KORESH: I can't hardly hear you.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Are you okay? Can you

MR. KORESH: Turn that radio down.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, sure.

MR. KORESH: Okay. Here we go.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. David?

MR. KORESH: Sir?

MR.KAVANAUGH: Okay. I'mgoing toget your

scripture messageon there too.Now, I kept my part of

the bargain here, I'vegotone messageon there for

MR.KORESH: Okay. .I

MR. KAVANAUGH:Can you, can you dofsomething

M. KORESH: Yeah, what do you want?

MR. KAVANAUGH:1, I want some of the wounded

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people, I want someof the wounded people.

MR. KORESH:I mean,they're upand aqoundnow, you know?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, butDavid, theyre

bleeding or hurt, they need treatment.

MR. KORESH:Well,they're not bleeding.

Most of it was -- where did Scott get hit, in the hand?

MR. KAVANAUGH: Scott ~-

MR. KORESH: Okay.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Scott was hit in the hand?

MR. KORESH:Where wasBig Boyhit? in the,in the, in theside ofthe leg?Just agraze? ,Okay,

just a graze. It, it scared him morethan hurtfhim,huh?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Okay, but howfabout

?some ofthe kids? Can weget someof the children outI mean, we --

MR. KORESH: When we, when we finish!our

working this stuff out then youcan comeand havethe

kids, all right?

MR. KAVANAUGH:I'm sorry,David, say thatagain.

MR. KORESH=I said when weget ourimessage

out and stuff then you can have the children,!all

right?

MR. KAVANAUGH:All right. Now, yougive me

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MRKORESH: Hey, my-- I gave youmyiword.

MR KAVANAUGH:Okay, buddy, I trust you and

I believe you I'mgoing to get this message outand

then we can get the children, right? »

MRKORESH: Right.

MRKAVANAUGH: All right. God blessryou, I

love you Now, Iwant youto stay on withme, okay?MRKORESH: All right.

MRKAVANAUGH: All right. I want to get

this to the radio station right away.

MR KORESH:Let's, let's,you know, hear it

MRKAVANAUGH: All right. Look, hold on,I'm talking to David.

MRKORESH: You're-and you're, you're

going to have those scholars call me up, right?

KAVANAUGH: Well,I hadn'tgot to that

KORESH: Try, try for me.

KAVANAUGH:I will try, I give you my

d b twhen we lathis messageasagreed, David'swor , u p y

going to let usget the children out.

MRKORESH: But they're-~

Gunshot!

MRKAVANAUGH: Okay?

MRKORESH: They're shootingat us again

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indiscernible!.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Who'sshootingout chem?

Find out who's shootingout there.

MR. KORESH: Out in the field.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, hehears them -~ tell

those agents whoever thehell's shooting tell them to

stop. Turn thosepeople back.

MR. VANAUGH: We don'tknowwho'sshboting,KA

David. It -we'regoing to find out.It's non us.

We just got the word backthat we are not shootng. It

ight be one of your guys in the far corner of them

building.

MR. KORESH: No, no, no, no, they're

.shooting -~ what? Yeah, don't[cut off and on]

MR. KAVANAUGH=We're notfiring.

MR. KORESH: No, I'mtalking to the, to the

9uY5-

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Nowlisten, okay,thisisour agreement, okay?I'm goingto playthefmessage,I'm -~and I'mgoing to,I'm goingto tell them topronounce your name right, okay? p

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Because I'msorry tme way

they calledyou Vernonlast time but I'mgoing to25 get --

M. KORESH: Yeah.

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MR. KAVANAUGH:--David Koresh and then --

MR. KORESH: Koresh.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Koresh?

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH:And thenwe're goingto getthe children out, okay? And --

MR. KORESH:Well,like I said, I want these

scholars to call too. I mean --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Well --

MR. KORESH:--you'renot just going to come

up hereand take themout, you'regoing to, you1re

going to tell them, you know,that I want somereplies

on that and I want someone toshow mefrom scriptures

where the seven sealsare foundandthen I knowlI'm

wrong.

MR. KAVANAUGH: But David -

MR KORESH:That's, that'sall I'mqsking --MR. KAVANAUGH: --I know that --

MR. KORESH: --for life, man.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay.

MR. KORESH: Come on, bend a bit.


MR. KORESH=Well,if I --let, let$ go one

step --let me play this messageand, and, andflet's

get some --all right --

MR. KORESH: Get some feedback back.

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MR.

MR.

MR.

MR.

MR.

MR.

bassdown.

MR.

MR.

MR.

MR.

MR.

you send the

MR.

religious --

MR

MR

know --

MR

MR

MR.

MR.

. KAVANAUGH:

.KORESH: -~

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KAVANAUGH: Okay.Let's playthe messageand then we'll talk.

KORESH: Okay. Turn the radio on.

KAVANAUGH: Okay.Well, they ainqt goingto get it on that fast.

KORESH: Well, that's tooloud, I can't

hear my friend here.

KAVANAUGH: Too loud?

KORESH: Turnthe trebleup andturn the

KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible! David?

KORESH: Yeah?

KAVANAUGH: Letme askyou this, buddy.

KORESH: Uh-huh.

KAVANAUGH: I'llplay the messaga, okay,kids out.

KORESH: I'mnot going to do thad. You

play the message like you said --

KAVANAUGH: Okay.

KORESH: - and put me so-called

some leaders on there --

Um-hum.

and put it on air, you

.KAVANAUGH: Yeah.

.KORESH: -- and, and explain to me what

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80--

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the seven seals are.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, David, I,I think you

know more about that than anyone.

MR. KORESH: Well, okay, then -

MR. KAVANAUGH: And I --

MR. KORESH: -- then my position is, is, is

standard isn't it?

MR. KAVANAUGH: It, it is, buddy, I mdan you

respect it.

know more about it than anyone. There's no onefcan

dispute you. I'm nottrying to argue that poind. I

MR. KORESH: I know, but --

MR. KAVANAUGH:I,I just want us to make a

M.

going to take

MR.

you send some

MR.

MR.

MR

don't want to

MR.

MR.

small movement toward a peaceful agreement.

KORESH: Yeah, but, but you're not just

our children. K§

KAVANAUGH:Okay.Well, would yob, would

of the ladies out?

KORESH: Huh?

KAVANAUGH: Someof, some of thefwomen

KORESH: The - any women -- thelwomen

go -- they'll go,everyone of usgwill

KAVANAUGH: Okay.

KORESH: -- once we get our chanpe to

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discuss thiswith theso-called mindsthat thinkthatthey know the seven seals. i

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Well, what, whatanswer --

MR. KORESH:Indiscernible! it'sagainstreligion --

MR. KAVANAUGH:What, whatwould you-- what

-- if -- whatmessage areyou lookingfrom them,David?I don't think --

MR. KORESH:Iwant them toshow mefkom the

prophecies wherethe sevenseals arefound, justgivethe referencesso everybodycan hearthem.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, you know the

references. Youtell meand I'llhave iton theradio.MR. KORESH: Iknow it.


MR. KORESH:But thething of it is, do they?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, you, you wantto know?MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Idon'tthink they know.

MR. KORESH:Well, okay, so --

MR. KAVANAUGH: So -- we know --

MR. KORESH:-- I mean they'rein troublearen' tthey?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, Iagree with you.

MR. KORESH:Then myFatherisfixingjto do

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some veryawesome thingsin this little world.gReadIsaiah 24. That's whatyou all boys havedone in

Isaiah 24,you know,it's aterrible [gap]

MR. KAVANAUGH:You're, you'renot goingtodie, comeon, we'regoing to-we,we gotsome1--we're takingsome shotsfrom yourguys.

MR. KORESH: Where?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Hold on, David.


MR. KAVANAUGH:Hey, thisisDavid. Are hispeople shooting?

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #2:Indiscernible!MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, yourpeople area

shooting ourguys behindthe rearbarn andwe're notfiring at all.

MR. KORESH: No, we'renot.

MR. KAVANAUGH:He says-- Davidsayslthey'renot shooting.

MR. KORESH:Go, go down -- because

indiscernible! godown thereand indiscernibleb

MR. KAVANAUGH:well, you'dbetter che%:k.He-- they keep telling us --

MR. KORESH:Got tohold offon thoseboys.MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, tellthem tohold off I

mean, youknow, I'dtell themdon't shootthem butifpeople are shooting at them, you know --

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MR. KORESH:Yeah. yMR.KAVANAUGH: Let's work,let's workout

something. Is there anybody inthere?

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #2:Our guysaretaking fire.

MR.KAVANAUGH:Our guysare takingfire.

Our guysaretakingfire.Now, that's notkeeping yourend ofthe bargain.Seeifyou can stopthem, buddy,come on.

MR.KORESH: They're, they'redown there.

We're notshooting at them.

MR.KAVANAUGH: Well, we'retakingit; I've

confirmeditthree times.We aretakingfire. iTheyneed theword fromyou, you'rethe top man. Tel themnot to fire.

MR. KORESH: Okay.

MR.KAVANAUGH: Don't breakyour word mow.

MR. KORESH:I'm notbreaking mywordq


MR.KORES1-I: we -- there [gap] I

MR.KAVANAUGH:Everybody-stop, everybkdy--MR. KORESH:Whoisdown at the barn ight

now? Go and try --

M. KAVANAUGH: Dave --

MR. KORESH:Someone's shootingup toqardshere.

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MR. KAVANAUGH: David said maybe it'snot ATF

shooting but somebodys shootingfrom the barn. Okay.

We're goingto suppress everything from the barn.

MR. KORESH:Yeah, go find out what's going

on down there.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Tell them to stop shooting,

everybody stop shooting.

MR. KORESH: No one here is shooting.

MR. KAVANAUGH: No, no shooting now?

MR. KORESH: Huh indiscernible! firi --

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay, okay,okay. There's,there's noshooting now, right?

MR. KORESH: No.

_ MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay, good.

MR. KORESH: We never have shot.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Is there any elderly people

that might want to come out, you know?

MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! and then you're>

just firing at us? How did-- what,they gotthebinoculars on him? f

MR. KAVANAUGH:In the distance? we11LthatI

might be some crazy rancher. We'll,we'll checkon it.

They saythey tooka roundfrom way,way offsomewhere.They don'tthink it'sATF. Putthe wordout, anybodywho's shootingat them --

MR. KORESH:Hey, you got, you got, you got

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the zoom on him? Ishe ATF or what?

MR. KAVANAUGH:They got a spotting scope on

the guywho'sdoing the shooting. Might besome crazy

rancher or redneck out there. I don'tknow. We'll,

we'll -we're goingto put a stop to it.

MR. KORESH: Hey, could you get a -- where's

Steve? What'sthe name ofmy buddyacross the street?

What'shisname? Can youget RobertGonzalez onthe

phone so I can talk to him?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Oh,he's,he's,he'sgone.MR. KORESH:Where did he go?

MR. KAVANAUGH:I, I don'tknow wheregtheysent him. He's notaround.

MR. KORESH: Tell him, you know, I --

MR. KAVANAUGH:I'll tellhim whatever you

want.

MR. KORESH:- Ireally did like that guy,I really did. I -- you know,I-- oh, they'redroppingsnipers on the DoubleE?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Hey, tell your guys t1f1ats --

just theperimeter, that'sall, nobody'scominglin.Just the perimeter, that'sall --

MR. KORESH:Yeah. ,

MR. KAVANAUGH:-- nobody'scoming inl

MR. KORESH:Well, youall needto, ypuallneed to, you all need to go to the scopedrifles.

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MR. KAVANAUGH:He's tellinghis guysto goto the scoped rifles. Better pass that on

indiscernible! hey,hey, andthey cansee them,theycan see them on the Double-E Road over there David

says.

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Sandra. Davidsaid they cansee agents on the Double-E Road.

MR. KORESH:Yeah, wegot, wegot powerfulzooms on those guys.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, I'lltell them to back

up. I, I wish we couldget somethingout onthismessage.

MR. KORESH: Well, let's d0 it, let's-

MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, let'sdo it. I'Ill tell

you what,you gotmy wordI'll giveyou onemessage,I'll giveyou this second message.I'll haveit

played, I'll do it first -- '

MR. KORESH:See whatyou cando now..

MR. KAVANAUGH:-- and then yousend somekids out. .

MR. KORESH:Not yet, no, youhave thescholars call me first.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Let me ask youlthis:

if I can do this --

MR. KORESH:Is your name Kavanaugh?

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MR. KAVANAUGH:Yes, sir.

MR. KORESH: Kavanaugh.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Jim Kavanaugh.

MR. KORESH:I thought your name was Lynch.

MR. KAVANAUGH:No, no, Jim Kavanaugh, that's

right, yeah, Jim Kavanaugh,um~hum. Italked to Steve

earlier, you know.

MR. KORESH: All right.

MR. KAVANAUGH:We, we,we, we stopped all

the gunfire. Here's whatI --

MR. KORESH:You guys located down in Waco

there?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, down in Waco, uhkhuh.

MR. KORESH:Gotthat,got that old steel --steel-walled room in there, huh?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Oh, it'snothing like that.

Hey David, I mean if I could get us to make an

agreement here, I can'tget --

MR. KORESH:Do anotherthing, tell sheriffThorn that I really liked him.

MR. KORESH:Sheriff Thorn that you like him?

MR. KORESH:Yeah, that, you know, I, I

really thoughthe wasa decentman andeverything andtell him I'm sorrythat he doesn't knowreally wherewe're coming from and -~


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MR. KORESH: -- of course, you know, tell

Harwell, you know, after we're gonehe can still come

fishing.

MR. KAVANAUGH:You're notgoing to be gone.

MR. KORESH:Well, it depends on what you all

going to do for me.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Hey, we'renot cominglin

there. I want to get ~»

MR. KORESH:Well, it depends --look, look,

it depends on what you guys do for me.


MR. KORESH:You gotall the technology, youcan hookme up,you know?People likestories,ithey --you know, or TV, come on.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, yeah, Iknow.

MR. KORESH:And look,I'll makemyself looklike afool onTV, ifyou all just letme, youknow, onTV just, you know,blankit just like [gap] my words

and stuffand, andthen, youknow, peoplewill likethat. It'skind oflike,you know, notlike thepresident talking, it's kindof like the [gap] g

MR. KAVANAUGH:David, thething is id, if Iplay - if Iget them toplay this scripture, Igmean

it's likeI wantyou to,you know,do somethinggfrommyside, Imean -- Q

MR. KORESH:I am. I, I gave youthe}

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scripture soyou couldknow whatyou're fightingagainst.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, I understand that, but

I mean, I'm goingto get it played on the radio and I'd

like to see somepeople that are hurt come out.

MR. KORESH: what the -~

MR. KAVANAUGH:One person,one person,that's all, just oneperson. Ifyou'll agreetd sendone -- g

MR. KORESH:Well, you'vealready gotqyou'vealready gotsome peopledown atthe, theshop. EYou'already got --

MR. KAVANAUGH:I don'tknow. I haved't beenat the shop. '

MR. KORESH:Yeah, youknow, youalready gotthose guys, they're withyou.

MR. KAVANAUGH: If you send out --

MR. KORESH:You alreadygotPaulFatqa andindiscernible!.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. I,I wasn'tawake ofthat.

MR. KORESH: You know?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, butI meanif yoL'dsend outany motherand child,one ortwo. I'mhotasking youto sendoutallyour people, I'd just,liketo get somebody maybethat's hurtor scared out,!I'll,

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I'll getthis playedand thenwe'll goto Step 2. Let,let's do it.

MR. KORESH:

ask again and see if a

asking again if anybod

DOC

All right. Let me go run and

ybody wants to leave, you know.n

MR. KAVANAUGH:They're goingaround and

MR. KORESH:

MR.KAVANAUG

y wants to leave.

So youwant tocallme back?:No, let's nothang upi Let'sH

hang up. I'lltellyou what, if you wantto restwhy don'tyou just lay

open line because what

and

you

and

are

you

stuff get on these

know? And you and

everything, and eve

talking and, and th

care for people and

MR. KORESH:

MR. KAVANAUGH

MR. KORESH:

MR.KAVANAUGH

MR. KORESH:

MR. KAVANAUGH

you acult when you're

believe thatthe radio

don't tell them that.

MR.KORESH:

the phone down and, and leave an

happens isall theseneijhborsL

phones and I couldn'tged you,

me have to work it out. U mean,

rything isokay ifyou an?meats the main thing. Because

, andyou're sincereand honest.>

I care about myFather [gap]:That's right.

-- in Heaven.

:I know you do.

I care about --

:I don't knowwhy theypall just religious people. Ifcant

says that stuff, but you know we

Do you understand, David?

But that'swhatthey say and

40

that's why you can't blame them.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, people callyou that, I

don't, Idon't --we don'tfeel that way. I maan, we,

we know you just --

MR. KORESH= Come on, come on, look --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, listen, hold it, you're

a Christian man, that'sall. 92

MR. KORESH: I'm notaChristian man. .

Remember, inthe sightof theworld I'macult leader,remember, let's take it atthat. i

MR. KAVANAUGH: Well --

MR. KORESH:I'm notoffended, all right?

I'm justhurt becausethe sevenseals, myfriend,92and

whatever God says he'sgoing to do in those seals:

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. What,what can weido

on this, on this agreement, I mean, if I can get this

message played? And, and I'm goingto do my best do

get just yourwords exactly, would you just -- I mean,

I've gotall these bosses too and I mean, you're,

you're --

MR. KORESH: Don'tworry about no bosses,

like I say, if, if they're goingto come here and shbot

us allup, they're going to come and shoot us all--

MR. KAVANAUGH: I ain'tgoing tolet nobody

shoot youup, I ain'tgoing to let nobody --

MR. KORESH: Well, you know, you--

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MR. KORESH:I'm theguy that'sputting astop to --

MR. KORESH:~- you'regoing to smoke bombusor you'regoing to burn our --

MR. KAVANAUGH: N0.

MR. KORESH:- building down orwhatever,you know?

MR. KAVANAUGH:We're notdoing it, I?m notgoing to let them do it.

MR. KORESH:But the thingof it is id that

you letthem comeininthe first place. Those guysare notlike us,they don'tknow whatthey're doing

indiscernible! they're,they're doinga job,they'retrying tomake aliving, they'retrying toraisetheirfamilies. Youknow, youguys fromthe top,man, you

just put itto me straight,those guyswere

they cameout here, those guysare probably

shots, youknow? Butno, theywere scared,indiscernible!.

MR. KAVANAUGH:I'm tryingto get

side, it'simportant, very important.

MR. KORESH:We told them to get O

scared whencrack

you knbw

them on our

ut.You

know, peoplehere aremarksmen too,you knowwhatI mean?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Hey, I understand that.

MR. KORESH:But thethingof it is is that,

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you know,God alsohas anarmy. You need to read

Isaiah 13, see whatcan happenon you. It's nonsense

to have so many-- there'sno herosin this kind ofstuff, man.

MR. KAVANAUGH:What's that?Hold on, David.

What's that?A radioguy? Youtell him thatI --that -- you tellthem JimKavanaugh saidhe -~1wemighthavea messagefor himto playand I-~ andhe's goingto have to do it. All right. Hang ona minutei

MR. KORESH:All right. ,MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, getthatmessaga back

to him,you tellhimthatI -- yeah,that's right,okay. All right. Hold on. All right. Look -»

MR. KORESH:You can tell them I've beenl1

wounded andshot if youwant to, thatmight make92them

happier.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Well -- no, well, I donft

know --you know,I can't- you know howthe news

media is?I mean,they're -theydo things ontdeirown butwe're, we'retrying todo everythingwe cahtodo what'sright byyou. Andlet's dothis:let'smakean agreement.I'm goingto getthis thing on theair,the wordabout theseven sealswill be out. We'llhave

an, an agreement, a couple of people, once the word

comes backif anybodywantsto go andthen themess%gewill be out, then we'll talk further. I, I,I like}

1 43

dealing withyou becauseyou're theguy in chdgé and,and, and those people believe in you like no others in

the world and they --

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH:-- will do what you Uell them

to do, what you ask them to do.

MR. KAVANAUGH:But I can onlydo whatmyFather haswritten for me to do, that'swhy those

. Kpeople aresupposed toknow thatI'm notcrazy.» If Idid not --

MR. KAVANAUGH:I don'tthink you'reckazy.

MR. KORESH:-- look, look,if I did not showpeople fromthe bookthe wordof Godwhat Godhasstated shall be in the last days --


MR. KORESH:-- aboutmy comingand why92Icome this way --


MR. KORESH:-- that I will notallowanybodyto believeme. Youcannot beflesh andblood. Bqtwhat iswritten inthe testimonyfromthose who sthrtedthe ChristianChurch, youknow, Moses[gap] Malachi--

MR. KAVANAUGH:Let meask yousomethingl letme askyou something,you mayknow aboutthis. Wh%tabout thatthing theycallthe, the Ark?Do youknbwabout that? I -- i

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MR. KORESH: Noah's Ark?

MR. KAVANAUGH: Noah -~

MR. KORESH: Or the Ark of the Covenant?

MR. KAVANAUGH: The Ark of the Covenaht.

MR. KORESH: Oh, it'sabeautiful thihg, yes.

I'm fixing to show you where it's at.

MR. KAVANAUGH:No, no, no. Noah'sArk,

that's whereall the people weresaved?

MR. KORESH:Well that's indiscerniblk!92

Mount Ararat.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Huh?

MR. KORESH: It's inTurkey right now.l when

the earthquake took place, the glacier busted --

MR.KAVANAUGH: Umhum.

MR. KORESH: -- and exposed it.


MR. KORESH:That's the-- one of the signsat the end.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Like Noahwasamessengekandyou'rea messenger and, and you say yourfunction k-

MR. KORESH=Well,no, what happensis our

message is to the world butthe scriptures saw that it

was time no longer it'd belike in Noah's day-- g


MR.KORESH: -- you know?

MR. KAVANAUGH: But they weresaved, the

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people that carried the word.

MR. KORESH:That wentinto the Ark, yes.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, they were saved

and --

MR. KORESH:So Isaiah testified the day

come whenGod willmake aman ahiding place[gap]Christ unless you know what he knows, as >

indiscernible! says the knowledgeof the holy is

45

will

in

understanding, thefear ofGod ismade ofwisdom92andyou don'tknowwhat'son God'smind withthose sehl

then you won't knowwhat's onmy mind. '

MR. KAVANAUGH:I'm checkingwith the peo

indiscernible!. I

MR. KORESH:If you don'tknowwhat'sowmind then you don'tknow what'son the mind of thel

prophets. If we're notin perfect harmony with all

that thescriptures havespoken, we'renot walkingstraight [gap]


MR. KORESH: SO --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Man's asinnerand --

MR. KORESH: Yeah, but there's onlyone

indiscernible! unforgivable.

MR. KAVANAUGH: You, you told me earlier

you -- you know, you couldn't-- they couldn't

understand and,and I believe you, I believe you.

s

ple

my

of

that

t§hati

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MR.KORESH: That's becausethey're not here.>

Isaiah says in Isaiah 6 where hetalks of the six-

wingedseraphim ~~

MR.KAVANAUGH: Umhum?

MR.KORESH: -- it'sthe same as Revelation

Chapters4and 5. And Isaiah says [gap] andhe talks

about aneventthat'll take place to, to bring it all

down tothenutshell. And so here we are at the92Day ofI

the Lord, all the prophets talkabout thegreat and

dreadful Dayof theLord whenGod willmake inqu%sitifor blood.

MR. KAVANAUGH:That's nottoday, DavidMM. KORESH: Oh, it is.

MR. KAVANAUGH: We're goingto

MR. KORESH: It's, it'sa progress. I

MR.KAVANAUGH:No, your,your peopleare,are going to continue on and, and you'regoing to

spread your message and,and, and your messageis even

going to go further.

MR.KOREsH= There's ATPagentswho are nowdead, right? !

MR. KAVANAUGH: I'm notsure. There were

some guyshurt bad on the roof but, you know, I donlt

know.

MR. KORESH; They're dead.

MR.KAVANAUGH: Hold on. Give me a

>

I

47

confirmation someagent's dead.I got to tell him.

They heardit on the news. Okay. Checkon that. I

know wehad some, some in intensive care.

MR. KORESH: Fourteen wounded --


MR. KORESH:-- two of them were dead.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Yeah,he's gotl--

yeah, that'sright. Theyconfirmed, you'rerigdt, fourdead.

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Uh-huh.

MR. KORESH: Tell me --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Uh-huh.

MR. KORESH:- that we're goingto belable

to present our truth. If you can lie that good -

MR. KAVANAUGH:No, I wouldn'ttellyou that,

that wecould -- that there'snot consequencesto that.

MR. KORESH:Exactly. ,»

MR. KAVANAUGH:I wouldn'tlie to you,}butthat doesn'tmean -- .

MR. KORESH: If I -- and if I --

MR. KAVANAUGH:-- your word doesn'tgd out.

MR. KORESH=-- if I'm wrong[gap] tomh asyou wish. I've always-- have to check my school

records, always was a good citizen --

MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, if, if you --

I

92

QO

l 48MR. KORESH:-- you know? If I've donewrong

thenIneed to bepunished. Psalm7 saysif Ihave

rewarded evilto him that wasat peaceto me, that

there beiniquity in my hand,you know,that bookiswrong.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes.

MR. KORESH:Itsays, yea,Ihave deliveredthem. How you get delivered?


MR. KORESH:The truthis to set youree --MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.

MR. KORESH:-- youknow? Thenlet the enemytrample my glory to the ground.

MR. KAVANAUGH=Yeah, I'mhere, buddy,»Iheard you and I --

MR. KORESH:My hearingseems tobe goingoutfor some reason. Y

MR. KAVRNAUGH:Hey, I-- we'vegot to,we'vgot todo something.I wantto getthat messageloutfor youlike Ipromised,and havethey comebackltotellyou if anybody wants to go out?

MR. KORESH:No, I think they'restill

checking. It'sa big place, you know?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, oh,Iknowit is,!yeah.MR. KORESH:A lot of people here. -

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, I understand thatiI

J

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92

49

understand that. Did the kids get some dinner?

MR. KORESH:Yeah, yeah, we got some MRE'swe

been--we sell MRE'sand stuff [gap]

MR. KAVANAUGH: You get them MRE's?

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH:What's yourfavorite one?Iate one of those yesterday.

MR. KORESH: Beef stew.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Beef stew? y

MR. KORESH:The onlygood onethere -P

MR. KAVANAUGH:I like that applesauceltheyhave.

MR. KORESH:Oh, yeah, that's good.

MR. KAVANAUGH=That's notbad, yeah. *

MR. KORESH: Maple nut cakes.


MR. KORESH:You all guys, you know,

things don'twork outthe waywe want,come onand helpyourself, there'splenty of -,

MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh --

MR. KORESH:-- plenty of, plenty of M§Es.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Hey, it'sgoing to worout.We're --you andme aregoing towork itout. Yohandme -- let me tell you something, we're-we -- :

MR. KORESH:We comefrom two different'

worlds, you know what I mean?

I

92

'-

92

I

k

I

SO

MR. KAVANAUGH: We, we come from two

different worlds and we'rethe only two peoplein the

universe that can solve this and you and me can--

MR. KORESH:Well, actually, actuallydon't

disqualify my Father.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, I understand.

MR. KORESH:I've beena goodboy, Idmit,but you can say the samething for yourself. E

MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, I think we're~

MR. KORESH:But Ido believein hisskvenseals.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes.

MR. KORESH:I dobelieve inthe truthfhegave me.


MR. KORESH:You know,when youconferiwith>

God you can't turnaway from it. »


MR. KORESH:You gottodo the truth nomatter what they do toyou.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, Iunderstand. It'sstarting tohurt a little?

MR. KORESH:Well, about an houror two ago

it -~ the numbnesswent awayand the,the biteand thefire and the, and the indiscernible!.

M. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. I got your message to

11

I

92

51

the sheriff that --

MR. KORESH: Harwell?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yes, sir, I did, I got the

message to him --

MR. KORESH: Yeah --

MR. KAVANAUGH: - and --

MR. KORESH: -- and to --

MR. KAVANAUGH: -- Sheriff Thorn.

MR. KORESH:He's agood man,I like that9uY-

MR. KAVANAUGH:He's agood man,and I|gotthe message to him.

MR. KORESH:Man, I love those guys. ,

MR. KAVANAUGH:to sheriff! Give meyour

message back.You can'ttalk to him butgive mejyour

message backthat you love him and you care for him,

okay? IMR. KORESH: Of course, you know --

MR. KAVANAUGH:David, thesheriff's replytoyou is that he loves youand hecares for you. V

MR. KORESH:Thanks. Tell him I don'tjholdno grudges in '88either.

MR. KAVANAUGH:No grudgesfrom himeidher in'88. i

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH: He just wants all nhosa

i

i52

people out, and he, he, he doesn't wantanybody hurt.


MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay?

MR. KORESH:Do what now Brad? No, it"s just __

MR. KAVANAUGH:Trying to get -- play a

scripture on the radio to give us some kids.

[gap] I

MR. KAVANAUGH:What's thematter, Dave?MR. KORESH: Oh, I'm just trying to --gthese

latter dayswatching thebaby getsome tittyhere.MR. KAVANAUGH: Has, has the -- has --

MR. KORESH:It's beautiful.Have you}ever

seen a baby taketitty from his mother?

MR. KAVANAUGH:It's beautiful, yeah.

MR. KORESH:Oh, man,you know,Christ{died2,000 years ago for that?


MR. KORESH: You know, only Christ is Vr

righteous for glory for a woman,you know? f

MR. KAVANAUGH: I understand, uhhuh.'

MR. KORESH:Christ cameto redeemmen[fromtheir -- you know I'm asongwriter, right? - '

MR. KAVANAUGH:Uh-huh. Y

MR. KORESH:You'll neverget to hear bymusic.

i

MR. KAVANAUGH: Well,

would like to.

MR. KORESH: But --


sing for me.

MR. KORESH: One song

flying -- "I can't reallysing

talk loud, but --


} 53that's --too b%d,I, I

maybe some day you can

goes, "Three angels

now becauseI c#n't

MR. KORESH:-- it goes, "Three angels flying

inthe mist of [gap] whenthe everlasting[gap] who

really knows indiscernible! who amongst the ba es can

indiscernible! four angels indiscernible!" -- not

going to remember it anyway. But -- I


MR. KORESH:-- that took too much energy out

of me, my friend. /

MR. KAVANAUGH:Oh, hey, save your energy,

save your energy. I, I, I want you to relax.

MR.KORESH: You everbeen shotbefore?


but I --

I've been shot at a lot

MR.KORESH: Well, man, let me tell ydu what

it'slikewhen you get shot. First of all,it eels

good.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah. I've beenshot{at and

r

x

/

92

92

>

54

it's, it's,it's hard,you know?

MR.KORESH: It --to me it'slike, it's like

it's warm,it's numb,and if you get shot two more

times --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, man --

MR.KORESH: -- and then they'reboth nice

and warm and --

MR.KAVANAUGH:I feel for you, Dave.}

MR.KORESH: --you're kind of stunned and

then you kind of [gap]. I

MR.KAVANAUGH: Hips broken? F

MR. KORESH: Yeah, it went in towards -

close towardsmy bellybutton andwent overand hitmy -- I think the pelvic --

MR.KAVANAUGH: The pelvic --

MR.KORESH: --went around andcame u?my

butt. g

MR.KAVANAUGH: Yeah,that's -i

MR.KORESH: Ricocheted or something.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.-

MR.KORESH: Yeah, I think, I think it!was a

.9mm I guess.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Oh, gee, how big is>

your wounds in the front, can you tell me?

M. KORESH:Well, yeah,in the front htlooks like it's not that big, you know?

I

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f

92

>

55

MR. KAVANAUGH:Not that big, but --

MR. KORESH: In the back it's[gap]

MR. KAVANAUGH:Are you sitting up or layingdown?

MR. KORESH: I'm halflaying.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Halflayingon a, ona[bed orwhat? j

MR .KORESH: NO .

MR. KAVANAUGH:Just onthe floor? iMR. KORESH: Floor.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Can you get another --ican

you leavethe phoneopen andget anothertowel onyourwound onyour backand I'llwaithere for you? V

MR. KORESH:Oh,well,I, I can, you know,I'm notgoing nowhere [gap] I don't know--

MR. KAVANAUGH:You're abrave man,I m goingr

to tellyou something -

MR.KORESH: Just -- well, look, I've gotmy

Father, he'swatching this. V

MR. KAVANAUGH:You're abrave man,I'm going

to tellyou. fMR. KORESH:I'm not-- well,this time it's

alittle bit worse if I indiscernible!. .r

MR. KAVANAUGH:David, is,is Waynewiéh you?MR. xonzsm 1think Wayne's -- ;

MR. KAVANAUGH:Is Steve, is Steve okay? You

I

I

92.

V

92

r

92.

i>

know, me and Steve talked for about 45 minutes.

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Is he okay?

MR. KORESH: He's okay.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. 1 know weworkei out

getting that all [gap].

MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! you know,&and

indiscernible! ought to listen.

MR. KAVANAUGH:

Tape 2!

MR. KAVANAUGH

STEVE: Hello

MR. KAVANAUGH

STEVE: Yes.

MR. KAVANAUGH

bleeding a lot?

STEVE: Well,

Well, you got a bunch of --

How is your side doing?

Jim. i

Steve?

>

How is hedoing? Is, is he

he's, he'shanging intherebut, you know, he's,he's hurt. V

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes indiscernible!

right. Look, what, what we talked about and so we're9

all square --

STEVE: Okay.

MR. KAVANAUGH

come out --

STEVE: Right

MR. KAVANAUGH

-- is the, the girls will

-- do, do you have a

flashlight you could give them.

STEVE: Do we have a flashlight we could give

the girls? We only have big ones I guess.

MR.KAVANAUGH: Anything they could -- just

so they could see. I don'twant them to get lost.

STEVE: Right.

MR.KAVANAUGH:And, andthey comedown thedriveway --

STEVE: Right.

MR.KAVANAUGH: -- and then we'llhaveia car

slowly pull right behind your guard shack. I

STEVE: All right. ,

MR. KAVANAUGH:Now, our guys want to reel

like they'renot going to get shot, you know?

STEVE: Well, you know --

MR.KAVANAUGH:Well, I, I take you word,

hey - ,

STEVE: Right.

MR. KAVANAUGH: -- I trust you.

STEVE: Right. 1

MR.KAVANAUGH:But, youknow, I mean bust

like, you know, theguys outthere--doesn'twint toget -- V

STEVE: Exactly, I understand.

MR.KAVANAUGH: Okay, andthen the kids will

get in, okay?

0 Q .ss

STEVE: Right.

MR. KAVANAUGH:And then we'll takethem

back.

STEVE: okay.

MR. KAVANAUGH:And 1'11get the kids hackf

over here --=

STEVE: And give us acall.

MR. KAVANAUGH: And 1'11let you talk to

them. }

STEVE: Thankyou. y

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay? éSTEVE: Okay. ,

MR. KAVANAUGH:Now, that's,that's whgt

we're goingto do. Now, whatI'm -and we'regLingto get twokids? - g

STEVE: Yes, two of them.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Two kids.

STEVE: Angelicaand CrystalSenobe.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Angelica andCrystal Senobe.STEVE: Sixand three. ;

>

MR. KAVANAUGH:Six andthree, okay.feedbless you. K

STEVE: Okay. ?

MR. KAVANAUGH=Just hangon with me hecause

we'regoing to get this done here in the next few

minutes, butwe, we,we've gotto get the -yol know,

I

O O

[ 59

I don'twant any mistakes andI don'twant the v

commanders on the ground to do anything, that we agree,

you know?

STEVE: Right, okay.

MR. KAVANAUGH: And how are the little}girls?

Are they okay?

STEVE: They're okay, they seem to be., I'm

looking at them right now andthey're just- they're,they're alittle puzzled of course. L

MR. KAVANAUGH: would ithelp if 1 talked to

the older one and tell her this is Jim and she'll be

all right and meet the man and he'll come to me?* Do

you want to do that?

STEVE: Okay.Just a minute. Davidwants totalk to you first.


STEVE: He wanted to know if you'd

indiscernible!.

MR. KORESH: All right. Okay. Listem to me.


MR. KORESH:Okay. We'regoing to send Sita

out.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Sita?

MR. KORESH: Yeah, she's their mother;

M.KAVANAUGH: Their mother, okay.

MR. KORESH: She wants to come back.

i

Q I

.0MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. _

MR. KORESH: So and she'll bethe one taking

each child out, okay?

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah. Can she take them out

one time just so we can, you know, do it --

MR. KORESH: Yeah, well -


MR. KORESH:- she'sgoing to take twoat a

time. I

_ M. KAVANAUGH: Twoat atime, okay,yeah,that's fine.

M. KORESH:And like I say, she's unarmed.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Oh, therewill beno pioblem.MR. KORESH: And you let her come back

otherwise you're going to make us real mad.

MR. KAVANAUGH:No, no, she'll comebatk.

MR. KORESH: Okay?

MR. KAVANAUGH:She canwalk thetwo dhildrento the driveway.

MR. KORESH:Yeah, that way, you knowi they,

they, they-- youknow, makesure -can evengait themthere.


MR. KORESH:Okay? I MR. KAVANAUGH:And then 1'11 havethe

children broughtto meand I'lllet you talk toithemso

i J

1

you know

brought o

phone and

you two m

hold noth

we'll wor

here that

going to

mean, the

I61

they're safe. _

MR. KORESH: Okay. You're going to havé them

ut to you, right?

MR. KAVANAUGH: To me, okay?

MR.KORESH: Okay, and then they call on the

then youall play thatthing and we'llsend

ore out. ~

MR.KAVANAUGH: You've got a deal.

MR. KORESH: Okay.

MR. KAVANAUGH:All right. Now -- p

MR.KORESH: Hey man,like I said, I don't

ing against you or the ATF guys.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey, I love you, buddy, I --

MR. KORESH:They maynot understand mez but

k it all out a little bit later, okay?

MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey, there's a lot of people

love you and I -- V

MR.KORESH: Oh, I -

MR. KAVANAUGH:-- I want youto knowphat.

MR. KORESH:-- I wish theyknew mytruth.

MR.KAVANAUGH=I wantyou toknow thaéwe'redo itand thisis goingto beunbelieva%le, Ipeople aregoing toknow that--iMR. KORESH: Oh, we'renot murderers. I

MR. KAVANAUGH:Hey, I knowthat.i

MR. KORESH:Remember thatwe dideverything

1

K

i, 62

inour power to stop - it's justlike in1988, ydu

know, the Sheriff's Departmenttold us there was

dangerous people out here, you know. Anyway, we did

kind of back thenlike what you all guys weredoing

now, you know, youall were trying to makea diversion.


MR.KORESH: But oh,I wish you all had jhac-- I wish Robert -I mean I wish - what's hisname?

Robert Gonzalez had been more honest. I asked him

several times to go ahead and confess, you know?

he chosenot to. Okay. k MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. I'm,I'm, I'msuppo%ed

to get the word here in just a -- l

MR. KORESH:Well, they're-- she'sfixing92to!

come out now, all right? -

MR.KAVANAUGH: All right now, wait,hold it

up just because I want to make sure the car comes l

first IMR.KORESH: Okay.

MR.KAVANAUGH: -- because I don'twant heri

to --you know, I want her to see it thatshe knows

what --you know, andhe's notsurprised or anything.E1

MR.KORESH: Okay. 1

MR.KAVANAUGH: And, and the car willcome, 1

just one car. 1

MR.KORESH: All right.

0 0 3MR. KAVANAUGH:So just give us a minute.

63

MR. KORESH:Remember, she'sgoing to have a

flashlight so, you know ~-

MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, that -- okay, well see

her but I, I don't wanther - I, I'd,I'd likeHer to

look out where shefeels safe and sees the car.

MR. KORESH: Okay. All right.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Okay. They're

getting, they're the car.

Groaning sounds!

MR. KAVANAUGH:Have you -is your

hurting?

MR. KORESH: Oh, man.

>

Y

sid%L

I»

MR. KAVANAUGH:Do yougot anymorphine out92

there, David?

iMR. KORESH:No, wedon't, wedon'tdings.MR. KAVANAUGH:Oh -- well, Iwas just

thinking of painkiller.

MR. KORESH:We just, we just have alcoh

andIdon'tdrink alcohol, you know,I'll havean

occasional beer indiscernible!.

MR. KAVANAUGH:If we'regoing to do it -

well, theyagree, let'sdo itindiscernible! I& jsttrying to -- hey, tell them you'll doit and I'lltell

I

them tosend thecar. Comeon, we'regoing tolose it.Okay. All right. The car --

a

MR. KORESH: Okay.

MR. KAVANAUGH: iscoming, okay?

MR. KORESH: Uh~huh.

MR. KAVANAUGH: It, it, it is it's cdmin

from aboutsix miles. We'renotsending -- we're92not

letting those guysthat are onthe roadthere, okay-MR. KORESH: Okay.'

MR. KAVANAUGH:-- thatwere involvedinxthdeal today, we're, we'resending other people.

MR. KORESH: Okay.

F6.92

9

e

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay? SoIwantyouto Anethat. Soinother -- k

MR. KORESH:Bring, bring, bring a woman,}5 too, if you can,you knowhow they'rebetter withkid

little kids. »

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. 1, I -- E

MR. KORESH:If, if you, ifyou can. 1MR. KAVANAUGH=If we can, we'llbring a

womanif we can,butwe're sending other agents,noté

the ones that were there. They'regoing to come up,

they're goingto drive upto the guardshackwith theI

lights on--

MR. KORESH: Okay.

5,

ir

MR. KAVANAUGH: -- and Sita will walkout,

Senobe and Angelica.

MR. KORESH: Yeah, and we'llwatch withthe

i

car lights come on --

MR. KAVANAUGH:

MR. KORESH: --

inside, and then we'll --

know and then you give us

there.

MR. KAVANAUGH:

them, okay?

> 1

s@es

Yeah, oh, yeah, they'll --

and I'mtalking about uhe

when Sita comes back we'll

acall back whenthey get»

Yeah, and you can talk to


MR. KAVANAUGH:All right, and, andhey92--and the mother has to go back. I

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH:

Tell them no

The mother has to go ba

mistakes. Onlythe childrenare coming.MR. KORESH:Now, letme tellyou someth%n

too. If you

MR. KAVANAUGH:

do us wrong on this deal -i

Yeah.

MR. KORESH:I'll comeout after you. E

MR. KAVANAUGH:

mistakes. Okay. We'll -

MR. KORESH: Is the

MR. KAVANAUGH:

minutes because we don'twant

the roadblock, so we'regoing

Well, I know, David. No ,I

car coming down now? 3

No, it'sgoing to be afew

to sendthose guysfr%mto send other people.

Well, I'msending them right from here with me --

MR. KORESH: Okay.

X

92MR. KAVANAUGH:~- becauseI want thé

children to come back to me.


MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay, because that --

MR. KORESH:You'reagood man, I apprecdate

that.

MR. KAVANAUGH:All right. I don'twanti

nobody that's,you know,out thereor somethingthatk

was - XMR. KORESH:Hey, you go all around andtell

them that a car'scoming -- k> v

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. 1

MR. KORESH: --that ~- and that we're i 92 . i

sending our kids out two, twoby-two every time they

play that thing on the, on the radio. iK

MR. KAVANAUGH:Every time we play they'll

send them out two-by-two.

92

MR. KORESH: Yeah. K

MR. KAVANAUGH:You, you got it, you got

We will do it, we will do it.

MR. KORESH:Local radio station in Dallas

well,you know, it'll,it'll getaround. 14

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, it'll get -- it's

already got around, it'salready got around. Is

there --

MR. KORESH: Go give, go give daddy a hug. M

I

66

92 6Okay? 5

MR. KAVANAUGH: David, do you want me to talk

to their mom here for a minute so she can feel like she

trusts me, I will?

MR. KORESH:Well, youknow, like,likekyousay, she trusts me. ;

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. That'sgood.>

MR. KORESH:Justmakesure shecomes baTMR. KAVANAUGH:Here --okay. Okay.Okay.MR. KORESH:Hey, andyou needto bringQ--

some car seats if you can. ' 1

MR. KAVANAUGH:Some carseats? Okay.We'llmake sure we seat-belt them in. 1

MR. KORESH:Because some,some ofthem aieindiscernible!K

MR. KAVANAUGH:You've gotto bring them i

here. Our agreement is- just put themon the phone

Okay. Okay. I was just telling the commanderthat you

had tobring themhere - 92

MR. KORESH:Okay. 1:MR. KAVANAUGH:-- to me and,and sowe can

put themon thephone toyou. E

MR. KORESH:All right.MR. KAVANAUGH;What -- tell me what they

look like. }

MR. KORESH: Well, these two are little

2

isOriental girls. 1

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. I'llbet they're

beautiful.

MR. KORESH:They're reallycute. Theyfregood little girls. '

MR.KAVANAUGH= Oriental girls, okay.

MR. KORESH:Yeah.Well,I'mglad youneletting them come out. I think that's great.

MR. KORESH:Well, likeI said,you know?Iindiscernible!. E

MR. KAVANAUGH:I know what's inyour heart

now, Iknow what'sinyourheart. I-92MR. KORESH:Hey,allI wanted wasto sho%

the sealsthat indiscernible!. I

Mm. KAVANAUGH:Hey, David I'mtellingyou,

it's beenon theradio, your, your, yourmessage has

gotten out more than ever,you know. I

MR. KORESH:Indiscernible! pull my leg oht,

pull my leg out. Oh, it'scramped. Groaningsounds!

MR.KAVANAUGH: Oh man, are you okay? *

MR. KORESH:Groaning sounds!oh, doyou Q 1know whatpain is. 92 K

MR. KAVANAUGH:Oh man, I feel for you,

David.

MR. KORESH: Man --

MR. KAVANAUGH:You soundgood though. I

I

I

mean, canyou holdon forme? Yousound better.92Iknow --

MR. KORESH: It's sad, you know. It's -- I,

I got to stay alive at least long enough to ~

MR. KAVANAUGH:To getthese kidsout, come

on. Wegot to. lSTEVE: Get these kids out, yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH:You're agood man,God bhess92

you. 92

Groaning sounds.!

MR. KAVANAUGH:You gotto hang with me.§

What you got to do is you got to tell Steve too he

got to hang with it.

STEVE: Lift the leg, lift the leg, please,lift the leg -- back groaningsounds!. i

MR. KAVANAUGH: He said he's--that he'sE

trying to stay alive long enough to get the kids oud

and he'sgoing to send two out every time we run the

message. But no glitches, man. We got to stay with

this.No glitches. Okay.

STEVE: Besure andhave themplay that thingright after the two kids, okay-- 3


MR. KORESH: -- and they call back here.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay.Get, get the radio 1

station on the line,okay, and tell them that we're

i$

going to -want them to play the message again once we

get two children. Don't play it until we get the

children and then --but I want them to be on an open

line with somebody next door and I-- when we havelthe

children I'll tell David and then Iwant it played

okay? That'sour agreementand Idon'twant any i>

glitches. I'm sticking up for you, buddy.i

MR. KORESH: Yeah. I

MR. KAVANAUGH: I got a lot of people around

I118.

92

MR. KORESH:They're angrytoo, aren'tthey?MR. KAVANAUGH:No, they'renot. Theyre92--

I'll tellyou, they're just - K

MR. KORESH:Well, theyhave tobe, youaillost some of your buddies, man.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, they're just kind of

sad. E

MR. KORESH: Yeah, but you know -- E

MR. KAVANAUGH: Hold on.

MR. KORESH: -- I'll do what I can for them

whenIget back home, all right? BecauseIdon't,I

don't contendthese guysbecause mostof themthey dida good job, you know what I mean? E

MR. KAVANAUGI-I:Yeah.Man ~-

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Thechildren x §are there indiscernible!. E

92

A

1

MR. KAVANAUGH=No, you're,you're goig to

lose this if you don't doit. I can't keep-- you've

71

got todo this. I can't keepthis going if you don't

do it. The car'sgot to go. You tell them the car

goes out,the motherwalks thetwo kidsout, thetwokids getin thecar, theagent leaves,they bringthechildren here, I put them on the phone with David, then

we playthe message.That's ouragreement andwe gotto do itnow let's go. 1

KMR. KORESH: They'renot-- they're not

scared are they?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, they just don'twant to

get shot, I mean, you know? .

MR. KORESH:I understand. 5E

MR. KAVANAUGH:Can -~we canhave two 1

agents, right? ,F

MR. KORESH: Yeah. »

MR. KAVANAUGH:Two agents in the front,

that's it,and that --no more, okay? Okay? I92

MR. KORESH:That'sit.E

MR. KAVANAUGH:That's it,that's okay,we'rcoming. 1

MR. KORESH:And thenbesides, youknow, Ethere will be awomanthere too, see whatI'm saying?

MR. KAVANAUGH=Yeah. It-- okay.Commanderpassed on it'saminivan, okay, alittle van.

. 2

>i72

MR.KORESH: Okay.

MR.KAVANAUGH: It's allwindows in it, youcan see it.

MR.KORESH: Okay.

MR.KAVANAUGH:I mean, there's notrichs.

MR. KORESH:Well, likeI say,we gotnightvision on you guys.

MR.KAVANAUGH:Yeah, Iknow yougot nightvision. Butthere'll betwo agents,I mean,and, akdyou'll beable tosee, they'llpull right uptotheiguard shack.Will, will the motherhavealight? E

MR. KORESH:Yeah, she'llhaveaflashligit,you'll seeitcoming. i

MR.KAVANAUGH:Okay. Oh, she's gota i

flashlight? §MR.KORESH: Yeah, andI'll hold- I'llhive

her holditdown to the ground soshe doesn'tflare itin your eyes. i

MR.KAVANAUGH:Okay.Tell, tell Steveif hesees the car -- i

9292

MR. KORESH:Yeah.E

MR.KAVANAUGH:-- if he seesthe car send 92»them out. 392 MR. KORESH:Okay.i

MR.KAVANAUGH:Okay.That's -- and that'sKwhat -I wantto waituntil the cargets there. i

> w92

73MR. KORESH: All right. Be sure -- K

MR. KAVANAUGH: Huh? H

MR. KORESH: I'm tellingsome people. Be

sure ~ oh, I say, be sure tell all the guys to hold

fire, that I'm sendingsome of the children out an

there's goingto be a car come inthe front and nokto,

not tofire onit, all right? Okay?Yeah, becausethey'll begoing out,okay? Go,go thereand tell92them, okay?

x

MR. KAVANAUGH:Tell everybody. That's gbod.

David. That was good. Steve'sa good man.

MR. KORESH: Well, he, he loves the truth.

They're readingit again. x MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. EMR. KORESH: Turn it down.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Now -- myagreement,

I'm playingit. That's it isn'tit, David? I

MR. KQRESH:That's it. ,

MR. KAVANAUGH:All right, buddy, I, I kept,K

myword.

MR. KORESH: And I'mkeeping mine.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. You'rea good man. 1

The radiois playingit again.They're already%indiscernible!.

MR. KORESH:Take care Indiscernible! 1


74

MR. KORESH: Huh?

MR. KAVANAUGH: We played it. I mean,

we're I'm trying to show you my good faith.

MR. KORESH: Well, I - like I said, you

know, these children are not in this, you know?

MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, I know it, buddy, I know

it, I know it, you know.

Groaning sounds! 1I

MR. KAVANAUGH: I can tell you're hurtingi

man, I,I feel bad. I,I wish I could comfort you

somehow. Ii92

MR. KORESH:Well, just keep mea part ofkit,

be my comfort.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey, that's it. We know -+

at least we --

MR. KORESH:Is the car here now-not >

coming in the gate.

MR. KAVANAUGH: No, no. They're notcoming

in the gate, they just pull up. Oh, okay, yeah. Let{s

get thefirst indiscernible!David, is,isthe motherokay? »A

IMR. KORESH: Yeah, she's, she's fine.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. She's not scared is

she? E

MR. KORESH: N0.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Good.

i i I 75

MR. KORESH:No, she knows the book. 92

MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, yeah. She believes in

you.

MR. KORESH: She believes in God'sword.


MR. KORESH:Nobody canbelieve on me emcept

they believe God's word. E>

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.X

MR. KORESH:It's impossible.KMR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. gMR. KORESH: That's whyno one can just lbok

at me and talk to me and think of me being anything.

That's meallowed to be like everybody else, got to

establish His equity. XMR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah. L

MR. KORESH: But the truthis the truth.l 92

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, I, I believe that, I

believe that. I think we should be getting close here.

MR. KORESH: Getting ready? Go -- goingL92

down. You got a flashlight now? »

MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, man, you're taking--K

you're takingtoo much time. Hey, send that goddamn

car --get somebody up there, I'mgoing to lose it i

indiscernible! well, this is the only guythat cut thedeal. Can -- well,ask them whileI'm onthe phone %

indiscernible! can they come over here, and we can al

f 92

¢

§-

O 9 ,Ki vs

together work them here. I'll keephim on. And tell

Wayne he'scoming here. We'll workon his phone.

MR. KORESH: Can you move my leg again,

please? Let'sset it down. No, that one, the other

one. Yeah.

92MR. KAVANAUGH:That will be perfect becausethey can -- *

MR. KORESH: Pick it up.

MR. KAVANAUGH:--switch on andoff with me _ 92

and them.

v

MR. KORESH:Pick it up straight. Move the

chair. Bend it, bend it, bend it. I

MR. KAVANAUGH:David's hurtinhis leg realbad. It'scramping. §

MR. KORESH: No, it's just --okay. Back it

upa littlemore, please. K

MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, I'vebeen on since 9:30

too but I mean, I mean I called them whenthey were

shooting so I mean - .

MR. KORESH: Little bit more, please. Ba

it upalittle bit more. EMR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible! as far as

indiscernible! we'dlike them to comehere, that'sour

request soif youcan doit I'dappreciate- I mean,we got -- we'llkeep the line open. He can keep it

open until he gets here. Leave one guywith itopen,

v

f 92

'~

g.

come over

here.

ready to come out as soon as we get the car there.

car needs

MR. KORESH: What now?

77

MR. KAVANAUGH:No, I was talking with a guy

MR. KORESH: Oh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:


MR. KORESH: Turn it up. !

MR. KAVANAUGH:Right. There's-- they

to ge there, two agents and indiscernibl

MR. KORESH: Could you pull my leg up some

more? Get the cat out. Push it up.

MR. KAVANAUGH: I got to get them to move

faster. They'retoo slow. I mean, the guy'swantin

to deal.

MR. KORESH: Okay.

MR. KAVANAUGH: He don'tknow. Yeah,but

doesn't dois any good to deal with the guy who's no

the boss, you know? I mean -- well, that's true.

Let's havethem go right up. [gap] Yeah, she will,

EDIE .

Child crying!


MR. KORESH: Sir?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Is that a baby crying?

Indiscernible!

>

ii

i

i92

Q

92 N

E

3IV

Q

_

IOE

% 78

What's thematter? SMR. KORESH:Yeah, that'smy little girl.

MR. KAVANAUGH: What's her name?

MR. KORESH: Bobbie.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Bobbie. How old?

MR. KORESH:Bobbie indiscernible!she?almost a year.

MR. KAVANAUGH:A year, bless her heart. lshe> I

got enough toeat in there? 1

MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah,plenty of food.

indiscernible!. 1

MR. KAVANAUGH:I have two kids, I have twp

kids myself. I have alittle girl and a little boy.;

MR. KORESH=Yeah.She's getting some titty

right now. Goodwoman. :

MR. KAVANAUGH: Is she? What's her mom's

name?

MR. KORESH: Rachel.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Rachel. 1

MR. KORESH: Whois that, Steve? No, that

our next doorneighbors are talking.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Huh?E

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible! get the first

one.92[gap]

.. xMR. KORESH: What did Mark say?

92

2 7 MR. KAVANAUGH:What happened, Dave?

3 MR. KORESH: He'sprobably sad isn't he?

47 MR. KAVANAUGH: Who, who, who is -- whO is

5Mark?

6 AMR. KORESH: Our--

7 MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh,your neighbor? »

8 MR. KORESH: Ournext doorneighbor, yeam,R9 Mark, he'sagood guy. 92 »

10 KAVANAUGH: Is he okay? 1MR.

9211 MR. KORESH: Yeah, he just was on the

12 interview. §13 MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh,okay. 114 guy. He gaveusa

fair chance, didn't he? i

MR. KORESH: I like that

15

5 16 MR. KAVANAUGH:All right. When theypick17 the kids have them dro hp -- ave them put the kids i

18 different vehicle.

19 MR. KORESH: Whendo you think they'llget 92 E

20 here?

'|E

21 MR. KAVANAUGH: -~

just afew minutes. Keep that same vehicle

23 there but get two more kids in af ew minutes. Don't

24 make him indiscernible!. Okay. It'll be just afew

25 minutes. Yeah. We're-- yeah, we, we want to, you.know, try to get it -- we're tryingto do it slowly.Q

~

and bringthem to me. 3i

22 It'll be

9 92

79

up

= .

i>»

92

K

K 80iI I don'twant to get anyof yourpeople exciteou.Q, y

know whatI mean?I,I, I'm tryingto keepmy word,you know?

MR. KORESH:You all besure and tellieveryone not to fire on the car.92

MR. KAVANAUGH:No, they won't.

MR. KORESH:Indiscernible! all right.

MR. KAVANAUGH:We wanteverybody tobesafe.MR. KORESH:As long as wecan makeit that

i92 way. L

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, wecan,I knowwe can.MR. KORESH:I'll betyou talkedto someneal

psychos in the past haven't you?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Youknow,people -- we'reAlldifferent. I'lltell you, we, we,we're allso

different andwe lookat thingsso differentand youk know, whenyou'rea policeman--I used tobea deputysheriff and,you know,ride ina uniformcar and,you,know,I gota -- I usedto helpa lot of folks.I xdelivereda babyonceandI'lltell youit wasreal Eexciting, David,I'll tellyou it really was,you know?

MR. KORESH:Yeah, I'mfixing, I'mfixing tohave acouple more here. -

MR. KAVANAUGH:Oh, are you?

MR. KORESH:Yeah. I have two womenpregnant.

92 92 X

I C f i

E B1

MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, that'sgreat.

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH: I'm gladwe are agreeing thati

we love kids and I think that's, that'stremendbus.

MR. KORESH:You know,kid -- childrek arethe most important thing to me in my whole life.

MR. KAVANAUGH: I know, I believe you, I

believe you, because -- >

MR. KORESH: Because you can do so much with

them if you know the truth.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Um~hum. A

MR. KORESH: Just like my attorney that

helped us in the '88 case-- *


MR. KORESH: -- Gary Coker.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Coker? Yeah.

MR. KORESH: We had this little pizza party

afterwards andhe says-- §

MR. KAVANAUGH: Pizza party?

MR. KORESH:Yeah indiscernible!he,|hesays, Dave, how do you -~ how do your children -- how

come they're so well mannered?


MR. KORESH= And I kept trying to tell him

the seals, but he said no, I don'twant to know

religion. He says, I just want to know how do you get

»

O 9 ,xF82

your children so well mannered.

MR . KAVANAUGI-I:Um hum .

MR. KORESH:I said, well, becausethey knowthe truth. F

MR. KAVANAUGH:Um-hum. E

MR. KORESH: Well, anyway, he said, I can't|ir ask you nothing about Bible study.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. David, how did you,

how did you -- you, you just know so much from the

Bible, is that from the sevenseals whenyou got that?

Is that how you learned?

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH:That's unbelievable,

amazing. Ican't -I've never- 92

MR. KORESH=Well, you don't knownothing

yet. b

MR. KAVANAUGH:I've neverspoken tono onewho knows -

MR. KOREsH= Well, there's-- like it s a

simple man'sdoctrine, isn't it?

»MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay.

MR. KORESH:Just pretendyou'reasimple-minded man-- i

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. I

MR. KORESH:-- andyou've readMatthsw,Mark, Luke, John, right?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Right, um-hum. A

MR. KORESH:You readActs, Romans,

Corinthians andPaul saysa lot of thingsthaqs hardto understand, doesn't he?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yes, uhhuh.

MR. KORESH:Okay. Now,when you,whenyouget tothe lastbook ofthe NewTestament aftertheBook ofJude, there'sarevelationJesus Chrisi'sGodgave tohim toshow tohis servantsand Johnwas the

servant. MR. KAVANAUGH:Right. .

MR. KORESH:And Johnwrote downthat

revelation andsent it to theseven churchesinAsiaand eachchurch wasgiven specificinformation abouttheir necessity and need.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Right.

MR. KORESH:ButinChapter 4, theme sagetoLaodicea,inChapter4the Angel says,come uphere nowJohn andI'll showyou thatwhich mustbe hereafter.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Umhum. V

MR. KORESH:And Johnwitnessed theLast

Judgment inregards tothe caseof this whole world.MR. KAVANAUGH:Um-hum. i

iMR. KORESH:And Johnsaw thatall the Heavenwas calledtogether. It'sa seriousthing, youknow.


i

1

MR. KORESH:There aresome heavyindictmentsagainst you boys - I

MR. KAVANAUGH: Umhum, I understandl

MR. KORESH: -- and against the natidns, you

know? F

MR. KAVANAUGH: I understand, yeah. '

MR. KORESH: And that'swhy I'mher I'm

like your attorney.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Right, uh-huh.

MR. KORESH: See, I'ma mediator.

MR. KAVANAUGH:, Yeah.

MR. KORESH: So what happened was th

question was asked in God's judgmentwho only

worthy. Let me tell you about my world, okay? '

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay, yeah. l

MR. KORESH:You see,when youread te storyof Genesis --


MR. KORESH: -there was already a wokld

here wasn't there?

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, uh-huh. V

MR. KORESH:It wasvoid anddarkness tntheface of the deep and the Spirit of God was on the face

of thewaters andGod said,"Let therebe 1ight,Lright?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Um-hum. 5

k 85MR. KORESH;Well, youknow whythkre wasa

world here before?

MR. KAVANAUGH: No, I don't.

MR. KORESH: Well, you know why God said to

Adam and Eve, "Replenish and remultiply the Earth"?

That meansput back something don'tit? §

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, I understand.

MR. KORESH: Well, tell me about my Father -

MR.KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: -- let me tell you abont me.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. l>

MR. KORESH:After Adamand Evesinhed, they

took of the forbidden fruit, right?

MR. KAVANAUGH: Right, umhum. M

MR. KORESH:There's onlyone wayto teachmen thelesson thatGod learneda long time ago. Godis not what you think he is --

MR. KAVANAUGH:Right, um-hum. I

MR. KORESH: - you know? God says, "Behold,

man has become as one of us - "

MR. KAVANAUGH: Umhum. v >

MR. KORESH:-- "only good and evill"

MR. KAVANAUGH:Right. iMR. KORESH:Now, you know Godhas n t always

been holy. .


0 9 k ~86

MR. KORESH:All you got to do to learn thelesson issearch thescriptures andfind foreverychild that'sborn into this world ~-


MR. KORESH:- it has to learngood bnd

evil. Thosewho realizethat thereare starsabove theHeaven andthere's gotto beworldspastOrion }-


MR. KORESH:-- they realize this doesn't

work. RMR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum. i

MR. KORESH:You know,when youbreak thecommandments ofGod allyou're doingis you'relbsingthe lack of love --

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay.

MR. KORESH:-- youknow? SoGod haddoseparate frommen andgive themachoiceto dotmeirownthing and then whenmen havefound thattheir own

ways arenot workingandtheirown ways havebrought

sorry andsin and suffering uponthem, thewages ofsinis death, then Godsends a message intothe worldand

says,Children -- talkingto me,you know?And itsays like this,Whosits on the throne-- " i

MR. KAVANAUGH:All right. i

MR. KORESH:- who do yougive the book to?


92

Q C .

87

MR. KORESH:And sothe onewho lovesyoumore thanyou couldever realizeand it comes in

the

flesh andthat's wherewe getour problem.Aftertheorder ofindiscernible! Godin theflesh. Anytimeyoucome looking like mortal man --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Umhum.

MR. KORESH:-- mendon't respectmen,

don't, theydon't loveoneanother. You know,

brother iswrong anderring youwith yourspiri

Paul says,restores indiscernible!consider youleast you also be tempted.


MR. KORESH:Christ says, Christ says!

if

tu

they

a

al,

rself

II

this theyshall knowthat you'remy disciplesand thatyou loveone another."You know,we livetogeth

x

EI. I

mean, inthe beginning,you know,getting thismanypeople fromall over the worldliving together --

MR. KAVANAUGH:Right. pI

MR. KORESH:-- you know, they have tolove after awhile.

IMR. KAVANAUGH:I understand, yeah.

MR. KORESH=So, youknow, thething th

binds ustogether is that our Father in Heaven ha

given usknowledge andan understandingand we,wrealize that in our own humanitywe fell far shor

learn

92

at

s

t of

the things that weknow weshould andshouldn't dD, YOU.

92

<-

k- - i 88

I,know?

»92 MR. KAVANAUGH: Right, um-hum.

MR. KORESH:But still in this great country

God hasblessedthisnation because it'ssaid Qtsa

nation that'sconcerned aboutthe religious beliefs and

convictions of people.


MR. KORESH:Now, itsays itbelievesttheBible. F

MR. KAVANAUGH:Right. I

MR.KORESH: Now, wehave found in scipture,

I;I found in Israel on Mount indiscernible!.

MR.KAVANAUGH: Right.

MR. KORESH: But the people that hav

studied, we found in scripture, that God require

obedience [gap] because we'reall to keep the l the name of love --

>

MR.KAVANAUGH: Umhum. f

MR.KORESH:-- butto thespirit ofHiswill. So then thewill of God isrevealed inseden

92

seals and we've doneso.


MR. KORESH:And we'vebeen -we're in&tight situation now, myfriend. Z

MR. KAVANAUGH: we are, we are.

MR. KORESH: But, you know -- '

MR.

MR.

MR.

MR.

it right here

MR.

outside?

MR.

MR.

don't you?

MR.

were about --

MR.

right?

in Psalm 89 realquick.

iE

89I

MR. KAVANAUGH:But becauseyou're aigoodman

you're -well, maybe more than man, but --

MR. KORESH:There's nonegood, but there's

one good in Heaven, your Father --

MR. KAVANAUGH:I understand. .I

MR. KORESH:- you know, and far as I'm

_concerned I'm just a dixie cup. In the [gap] Psalm89-- you got aBible there with you? E

r

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. IKORESH: Let'stake a look at thefstory

I»

KAVANAUGH: Okay. 1

KORESH: Thepromise to ancient David92

indiscernible!. ;KAVANAUGH: Psalm89? Let'ssee, Igot

KORESH: They'recoming? Thelight's on

Il

KAVANAUGH: Yeah,they're coming.92Theysaid they were -- ' i

i

KORESH: You'vegot a radio onwithithem

KAVANAUGH: Yeah,they, they said t ey

threequarters ofa mile. 92

KORESH: Okay.They're atthe gate now,

i

90

MR. KAVANAUGH:Do they see them thee?>

MR. KORESH: Are they at the gate now?

Female voice in background!

MR. KORESH: okay.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Send them out so they

can *- »I

MR. KORESH: Send them out and give them a

kiss and tellthem to remember --

MR. KAVANAUGH:They're sendingthem oLt.92

MR. KORESH:-- whatthey learned.okay-dokey. Okay.Byebye. Give me a kiss. Come on.

Going to be all right, okay.Remember what you .

learned, okay?Okay.I love you.Bye-bye.Teqlthemgood-bye. Hey, go tellthem who Davidreallyis,kokay?Yeah, okay, listen. Y

MR. KAVANAUGH: Umhum. t

MR. KORESH: We want you to send them

their grandparents, okay?

MR. KAVANAUGH= Send themto their

grandparents?

MR. KORESH: Right.92

MR. KAVANAUGH: okay. iI

MR. KORESH: Theirgrandparents are likeI

say knownothing aboutthis message,they're good,people -- H

>


2

r

92

C

Q0

1"..MR. KORESH:- the Senobe's andthey'rein

Hawaii. i

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. How cculd I rdach

them?

MR. KORESH: Yeah, Scott. I know th but

they'll knowit. Your, your dad treated me good,

Scott, andthat's allthat makesany differenceyHedidn't knowwhat I thought but he treated me E

respectful, remember that, you know? He'lldo it.

They're goingto call -- they'regoing to-- the kids

are going to talkto you afterwards. And you got their

address andphone numbers?Okay. TakethisnumherI

down.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay, go ahead.

MR. KORESH: The phone number is808! --


MR. KORESH: -- 689 --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. 1

MR. KORESH: 4457.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Where isthat at?

MR. KORESH: 808!, right, 808! --

MR. KAVANAUGH: 689 --

MR. KORESH: - 689-4457.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Got it, and, and what's3their

name? Doyou know? KM. KORESH:What's, what's,what's theJr

&

name? Kenand Mollie Senobe.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Ken andMollie --

;92

MR. KORESH:And CerilaVera, CerilaVeraindiscernible!.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Cerila. Wheredo theylive,David?

MR

MR

MR

MR.

MR

MR

MR

MR

MR

MR

MR

Apartment L-

MR.

line, David.

MR

MR

MR

MR

MR

MR

KORESH: Theylive in Hawaii.KAVANAUGH: Hawaii?

KORESH: Yeah.It's 91674--KAVANAUGH: Okay.'

KORESH: --K-I-L-A-L-H-A Street

KAVANAUGH: K-I-L-L-A-H-AStreetKORESH: Yeah.

KAVANAUGH= Okay.

KORESH: 1333 --

KAVANAUGH: 133 --

KORESH: --Hala, H-A-L-ADrive,E-W-A, B-E-A-C-H,Hawaii.

KAVANAUGH: Allright. Give meI got up to Apartment L-3.

KORESH: ApartmentL-3 --

KAVANAUGH: Okay.

KORESH: -- E-W-A --

KAVANAUGH: E-W-A.

KORESH: -yeah, B-E-A-C-H.

KAVANAUGH: BA-C-H,Hawaii.

. .

? 92

r I

I92

I

II

that!last

l92

92I

okay?

1

9.

IMR. KORESH: Hawaii.


MR. KORESH: Okay?

MR. KAVANAUGH:We'll getin touch wi7

MR. KORESH:Indiscernible! ;MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.

MR. KORESH: Okay?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. Hold on, let m

one of my guys, guys here.

MR. KORESH: Well, we need to send th

I don'twant to get them spooked out.

MR. KAVANAUGH:No, I understand. We

get in touch with them, okay?This is the gran

of these children that are comingout, okay?

if we can get in touch with them and Davidwant

make sure, you know, they get together --

MR. KORESH= Indiscernible!

MR. KAVANAUGH:-- so we're goingto,

going to do that.

MR. KORESH: Is there anymore indisce

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, that'sgood.

indiscernible! hey, are you hurting, David?

like --

MR. KORESH: You know, after a while

MR. KAVANAUGH=Can you move at all,

93

th them,

% briefiI

em out.

I3gotto

dparents

Add see

SCO

92I

i

he're

rnible!.

';

g.if -- ,

MR. KORESH: No, I, I just barely canimove my

right leg and then, you know [gap] we'regoing to send

every time they play this - after they get the kids

they're goingto play it again -


MR. KORESH: -and then we'regoing '

to --they'regoing to come back and we'regoi

send them two more until they'reall gone.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Right. We'regoing t --

hey, he'sagreeing to send every kid, every tim we

play two kids he'sagreeing. '

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: What'sth#t radiostation? *

MR. KAVANAUGH: Don't playit, don't y it

until we tell them. Get them on the line.

MR. KORESH: Hi, son. Hi, baby.

MR. KAVANAUGH: David, are they goin

the driveway?

MR. KORESH:Are theygoing downthe drive--no, they'dbe telling us if they did. You gotakradio

> with them don't you? tr

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, but it's, it'siri the

next room. They're there? Can you tell me is tHe car

ithere? Q

MR. KORESH:Tell, tell them we'reseniingl> I

F

O 9 .+? 95I

themout.They'llbe -you'll seeaflashlight atthefront door and, andthey'll --and she'llbe dbwnthere

in just a fewminutes, okay?Are youthere? 5MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, I'mhere. "

MR. KORESH:Okay. Sotell themnot}to driveIoff just,you know,get backbehind thatthinglthere,Iif they'rekind ofuneasy. Q Ii

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, theywill. They'llget.behind theguard shackand, and- I

FMR. KQRESH: Yeah.

MR. KAVANAUGH:-and then they'll, d then

they'll go out.

MR. KORESH:No, you'llgo right out to them.

Yeah.And, you know,so okayget themready. They&#39there now,right? E

MR. KAVANAUGH: _Are they there?

MR. KORESH:Yeah, we'regoing --she? going1>

unarmed. V:

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, absolutely.

MR. KORESH:Unarmed. EMR. KAVANAUGH:They lady'scoming unarmed,

absolutely. We,we knowthat.iMR. KORESH:Okay. I only see the -- who?

Okay. They'reon their way now. E

MR. KAVANAUGH:The -- is the car there?

MR. KORESH:Is the car there yet?

9292A

1.» "'r

96

Indiscernible female voice in the

background.! _

MR. KORESH: Okay. The car is at thelgate.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay, and the kids are

coming. Thecar's atthe gate. 5

just a second

second or

when they

right here to

okay?

to talk to them bad.

MR. KORESH: And the children will be out in

or two. ,

MR. KAVANAUGH:They're comingout in just a

two. Okay, good. E

MR. KORESH:And thenyou'll -when you--

get there you'll havethem talk to us, right?

MR. KAVANAUGH:When I get -- when they get1

me I'mgoing tohand themthe phoné,

I>

MR. KORESH:Yeah, becausetheir motherwantsi

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yes, I understand, we'#egoing todo that. ;

are they coming out for -

not going

MR. KORESH:Okay. Yougot theBible dew?MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, Igot it. Are, %re,

MR. KORESH: Yeah, they'recoming out.

to let you down on this.

MR. KAVANAUGH: I know you won'tlet m own.

MR. KORESH: Okay. You got Psalms 89 o n?

MR. KAVANAUGH=Okay. Wait a minute. vid

|92

can't seethem. He thinks they'recoming out

car's there they're comingout he said

MR

»

If the

KORESH: Yeah,well, they'llbe out.

Just tell the guys to be--

MR

MR

MR

he's sending

KAVANAUGH: Yeah.

KORESH: -- don't beuneasy.

KAVANAUGH: Yeah, yeah,

them out. He -- we need

a radio so we can talk to them. Well

MR. KORESH: They're uneasy

just be patient,

to get a car with

I guess. ' t

MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, they just -- they, they

sent a van that didn't havea radio or just a walkie

talkie --

MR. KORESH: Oh --

MR. KAVANAUGH:-- sothey couldn'treahhIthem and that's whatthe delay is.

I

I I

MR. KORESH: Get, get a radio so we can, you

know, make sureno mess-ups happen.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. WhatI'll dois dn thenext time --

MR

MR

KORESH: Uh-huh.

> »l92I

xI

KAVANAUGH: -~I'm goingto putthemqin adifferent car --

MR KORESH: All right.

92 a92

1

.. il ea

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay? Differentcar _l1:henexttime, not this time, witha big radio so wecan talk to

them andwe don'thave anymoreof thesedelays becausewegot to get these babiestaken careof. !

MR. KORESH:Yeah. iMR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible!

MR. KORESH:All right. Okay. Are you readyto be enlightened?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. Okay. Go ahead.

MR. KORESH:Okay.Now, David is promised by

God that God wouldrule over Israel through his seed.

So Davidwritesin the psalm and the Psalmis89. You

got it there?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, wait,hold one sebond.

If theytake that lady indiscernible!something andhe's goingto get real upset. Make surethey know.

David said the lady doesn'twantto go andthat she's

going back. Is that -- that'sright, isn't it David?

MR. KORESH: Yes, she wantsto come back and

she'll bebringing out each of, each of the children.

MR. KAVANAUGH:She'sgoingto bring outiallthe children.She's comingback. She'sgoing tobringthem out every time, the samelady so wehave the same

drill. No mistakes. All right. Okay. Go ahead.§

MR. KORESH:They understandthere, right?i

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, they do.

92

~ Q199KORESH: Okay. iKAVANAUGH: Psalm89. 92 KORESH: Got it there?

KAVANAUGH: Letme lookhere, yeahwaita

KORESH: Indiscernible! yKAVANAUGH= Okay.Waitaminute,one %-KORESH: Psalms --

KAVANAUGH: Psalm89, what number?

KAVANAUGH: Psalm 89.

KORESH: Okayindiscernible! youknow,what Imean byPsalm 89we're goingto readthe whole'

MR KAVANAUGH:Oh, okay.

MR KORESH: Okay.

K

Baby crying! §MR KORESH:What's, what'swrong withher?

Okay Shedon't wantto leave?Who? Indiscernible!The caris she outthere now?The car'sdriving

Indiscernible femalevoice in thebackground !

they got them

them, the car

KORESH: Okay.So they're- I guessnow.

KAVANAUGH= Davidsays hethinksthey gotis drivingaway. Tellusrightaway, we

0 9 ,§

E 100

need to know. Okay. I think we got them and -5

MR. KORESH: They can'topen the door. What

do you mean youcan't openthe door? Our front door

is, is jammed? well --

lndiscernible female voice inthe

background! E

M. KORESH:Why isitdriving awayfor?K

MR. KAVANAUGH: Where isthe car? 5

MR. KORESH: Yeah, let them, let them,

them go out the back or something or just get the

out there. We need to, we need to get these kids out.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Hold on.

Indiscernible femalevoiceinthe background.! E

MR. KORESH: No, make sure it's the front.

Just open a window or something, let them go out t

window.

Indiscernible female voice inthe

background.!

M. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, but ~they'reloo

for the car indiscernible!.

MR. KORESH: But they -the car left?

MR. KAVANAUGH: No, itcouldn't have left.I1r

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Okay. They

out.

MR. KORESH: Okay. They're out.

101

MR. KAVANAUGH:They're outthere. Now, is

it the kids out or the car is out there?

MR. KORESH: The --okay, the, the car is out

there theysay but then theysaid it started leaving.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, it wasn't, itweenie

leaving.

MR. KORESH:Okay. Okay. Okay. That'sgood. All right. E

MR. KAVANAUGH:Where's themother and%hechildren? 92

MR. xoazsn:She's --they're onthe wa%outDOW. »

1 .MR. KAVANAUGH: They're ontheway out now

walking down the drive?

MR. KORESH:Get a radio, that way you canI

know whether, you know, theysee the flashlight.

MR.KAVANAUGH: He's tellingme to get a car

with a radio. Get a car with a radio next time!

We're going to do that.

MR. KORESH:Okay. }

MR.KAVANAUGH: This thing -- it was just

glitch, David, on the walkie andthe reasonwas wewere

trying to, you know, use the van that had all the

windows so, you know, none of your guys would thin @-

MR. KORESH:Yeah, I know. iE

MR. KAVANAUGH:That's all,buddy, it was 5-

~ - a

K ? 102I»

that's theonly thing. You, you know howthingsiwork,

I mean, sometimes communications, you know --

MR. KORESH: Just make sure nothing messes

up.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Nothing will mess up. * r

MR. KORESH:It's yourresponsibility now.MR. KAVANAUGH: The kids are coming? i

MR.KORESH:No, we just -- Sitas gotdocome back.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, theysee theligh

Sita will come back.

MR. KORESH: Keep down Jess, okay. So,

psalm says1MR.KAVANAUGH:Okay, andthekids are cohing

1down with aflashlight withthe mother.

MR. KORESH: They see it, right?


MR. KORESH: Okay. i

MR. KAVANAUGH:They're coming.EMR.KORESH:You lovethose kidsnow aslong

as youcan. i1

MR. KAVANAUGH:Wait. Tell Chuckto come inI

here and tell me something. Chuck indiscernible!

on a minute, David. Is, is the truck there? Man 1

you're goingto lose this. Drivesome goddamntruck isthe gate. i

103

MR. KORESH: Something's messingup, huh?

MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, I, I think it's just

communications, the, the walkie-talkie.

Indiscernible male voice in the background.!

MR. KAVANAUGH:All right, a car? It's okay

if it'sa car just sendit. He just wantsyou td sendI

MR. KORESH:Make sure they don'ttry

her. »

MR. KAVANAUGH:No, thekids areat thexguardshack waiting. The kidsare at the guardshack

waiting. Okay. Just tellyou guys it might be a car

instead of the vanwasslowbut we're -it's,

going to be just one vehicle. E

1MR. KORESH:Okay. i

M. KAVANAUGH:I don'twant themto get --

MR. KORESH: It all going now?

I MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah,I think it's[gap] ey

I want to apologize to you for the delay. I feel realbad about it.

MR. KORESH: People are human.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, I guess that'swha

is, youknow. We'reall humanand we'retrying andyou're tryingand, and that's what'sgoing to make i»

3work.I wishitcouldgoa littlequicker butI thi%kwe're goingto have it in a few minutes. i

i

.", " IE

.MR.KORESH: Whatare theysaying? What,104

what are ~-

MR. KAVANAUGH:Is the car there? All right.

It's coming.

MR. KORESH:Okay. IMR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. It's--

MR. KORESH:Ready for the psalm? E

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah,goahead. K MR. KORESH: Psalmas. 1

X I

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Ei

MR. KORESH:It says,"I will sing ofthemercies ofthe Lordforever: with my mouthwill I make

A

known thyfaithfulness to all generations. For I said

your mercyshall bebuilt up forever: thyfaithfulJessshalt thou establish inthe veryheavens." Now,yo?knowwhere God sit onthe throne inRevelation, right?He's gota rainbowover thisthrone don't he? R

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yes, sir, yes, sir. E

MR. KORESH:Okay. Now,that Godspake tqDavid and David is talking aboutGod."I've made

covenant with mychosen," that's theseven seals.

have sworn unto David -"

MR. KAVANAUGH:I'm afraidthey're goingt

turn aroundand goback ifthey don'tgetacar therel Okay. They see the kids, David. é

l

MR. KORESH: Okay. They see them?

i

»92

' 105

MR. KAVANAUGH: They see them and they're,

they're getting together right now, I think. H

' MR. KORESH: Okay. Just don't take her, she

don't want to go.

MR. KAVANAUGH: He's talkingto the kid --

the agent'stalking to the kids. Make surethe mbtherstays there. 1

MR. KORESH: She'll bring out other on

MR. KAVANAUGH: And she'll bring out t

rest. Don't take the mother. She doesn't -- her

there.

MR. KORESH:Baby indiscernible! yes, yes

[gap] so what's goingon now?

MR. KAVANAUGH: I,I -- tell me, tell mei

something, I want to tell him, he wants to know. E

MR. KORESH:Okay. They'redriving off nbw?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Theydrivingoff? K

1

MR. KAVANAUGH:All right. They're gettingin the car he said.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: They'redri

away.L

MR. KORESH: They're driving away now.

MR. KAVANAUGH:They're, they'redriving 92away.

MR. KORESH:Sita's comingback?

92

.'k

I 106

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Sita'sCbming

back?

MR. KAVANAUGH: Sitas coming back?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes.

MR. KAVANAUGH: All like we agreed.

MR. KORESH: Okay.P

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay?I

MR. KORESH: Good boy.

MR. KAVANAUGH:All right.Now listen, 1another carwith a big radio rightfrom Double-E Road

1

that's goingto go in and get the next set of kids

okay? Andbring thosekids here. Okay. Dave,wei wegot them.We're -- 92

MR. KORESH: Okay. Okay. Ready?


MR. KORESH:Verse 3, "I have madea covedant

withmy chosen,I have sworn unto Davidmy servant,thy

seed willI establishforever, and buildup thythroneto all generations. Andthe heavensshallpraise theywonders, oh Lord: they faithfulness also -- " i

>

MR. KAVANAUGH:Indiscernible! repeating all

of it.

MR. KORESH= Are you listening?

MR. KAVANAUGH=Yeah, I am, go ahead.

talking -- I'mhere.Your seed and I will establishv

forever -- 1

C,

92 E

to all --

MR

Almighty can

MR.

Lamb, right?

MR.

MR.

indiscernibl

M.

MR.

MR.

among the sons of the almighty"?

MR.

MR.

MR.

i

II

v 1

MR. KORESH: Yeah --r92

was Christ wasn't it? R

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yes, sir,uh-huh. K

the heavencanbecomparedunto theLord?" Youkéowwho Christ is, right? i

MR. KAVANAUGH:Who --where itsays, "W¥o

KORESH: "Canbe comparedunto the Ldrd?"KAVANAUGH: Lord, uhhuh. E

I

KORESH: "Whoamong the sons of the E

be likened to the Lord?"

92KAVANAUGH: Allright.

KORESH:Allright? I mean, only th

KAVANAUGH: Right.

KORESH: And God's goingto reign

e! his faithful, he meanswhathesays.

KAVANAUGH: Right.

KORESH= "God is greatly to be feared i

the assembly of thesaints" --

M. KAVANAUGH: Okay.

KORESH: - and to be had in reverenc

107

MR. KAVANAUGH:~- and build up your hrone

MR. KORESH:--David's,David's seed,that

MR. KORESH: Okay. So it says, "For who in

92 >

92I»E

E

,

C

.

6

7

>92

1 of all them that are about him." i

2 MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.

3 MR. KORESH: That'swhy, "OhLord Godof

4 hosts-- "whichis myFather," --who isthe strong5Lord like unto thee?" --

lMR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. K

MR. KORBSH:" --or to theyfaithfulneshround aboutthee?" --which meansyou're goingto do

just what hesaysin that book, right? T

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, sir.

MR. KORESH:"Thou rulestthe ragingsea,"E92 1whichis the heathen thatraged. Theprophecy saysE

that therage of the great oceanthe sea. "Whentheiwavesthereofarise, thou will still them or thou i

stillest them, you know,God's goingto put the , i enemies outafter this. "Thou hasbroken Ra-hadin »

pieces, asone thatis slain." Now, Ra-hadwas a i

really killed with therestof the people,the reaso

but -- thereason being is, is that the spiescamei and they werebeing searched out --


MR. KORESH=-- and they cameto her house

and theyasked herto help them. Well,she hadknownthe Godof Israelwas greaterthan hergod, riskedherown life in trying to defendthe spiesof Israel. So

108

harlot inJericho andthe wayshe wassaved, shewasnwt

92 x x

t

' '921 109

they madeacovenantsaying, look,when wedestroylthiscity --


MR. KORESH: Are you there?

MR. KAVANAUGH=Yeah, I'mhere. &

MR. KORESH: -- we will spare you and all

that youbring into your houseso shewas theonly i ordained ministerfrom Godand all she broughtto herhouse theywere saved. But shewas asshe was i

indiscernible! spiritual --

MR. KAVANAUGH:Um-hum,I understand. kMR. KORESH: indiscernible! astrong arm.

Now, the way I get rid of my enemies is I teach the

seven seals and peoplerealize they can't fightagainst

God -- éiMR. KAVANAUGH:Right. I

M. KORESH: -- because, "The heavens are >

thine and the earth is also thine, as for the world and

everything thereof,thou hasfounded them.The north,the south,thou hascreated them:Ta-bor andHer-monishall rejoice in thy name." 'That'sthe places where

Moses hadvisions in Deuteronomy 32about the end of

the world. "Thou hasa mightyarm: strongis they

hand, andhigh isthy righthand." God imposedhis

word inheaven. Hesaid thisis what I'mgoing to do

II

%


iE110l

MR. KORESH:I'mgoing to send myson hack

again this time being a sinner like the gentiles and

I'm going

you know,

those who

the sight of all the world.


fight againstit I'llmake anexample ofib

MR. KORESH: "Justice and judgment

habilitation of they throne: mercy and

before they face," that's me.


MR. KORESH: See, before God

you all guy's butts --


M.KORESH: -- I'mtrying to

seals, man.


MR. KORESH: This the key of

unlocks the mysteries.


truth

comes

teach

David,

to have him teach the truth to the gentilds,

and those who receive it will be redeemed and

r

are the

shall go

l I

k

and whips

> 9292

E

the seven

it

MR. KORESH="Blessed arethe peoplethat jjythe know the joyful sound: they shall walk, oh Lord,

in the lightof thy countenance." See, my Father is

watching me right now, he's--

Tape 3!

> 92

K I

111

MR. KAVANAUGH:We onnow? Is it coming on?Red light?

Telephone ringing! ~

MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, David,they justmbved[gap] they'renot coming toward you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER:It startsndthen it quits. The batteries are right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #3:You need

batteries?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Umhum.92

STEVE: Yes?

MR. KAVANAUGI-I:The newsconference. okay».What happened? I didn'thear it. 3

STEVE: Well, anyway, Davidwanted to know if

you got his message out yet on the airwaves. I

MR. KAVANAUGH:No, that --no, here's whatI

was tryingto workout withDavid.I can get the ymessage played- I know, but he, he just --

STEVE: I'mgoing to get off the phone

because, youknow, that's,that's thething that -- hesaid to you andthat's what'sgoing to be. é

M.KAVANAUGH: Steve?

STEVE: Yeah? '

MR. KAVANAUGH:CanI talk to him? }STEVE: You walk to talk -- no.

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Well,I, I really want

. 92

C

p

92

Q Q

MR.

do too. And whatI'm sayingis; let's

agreement --goin to h

sack -- the sack.

si- F 112

to do it, I want to et 'tg 1 on there but, you know,

we've, we'vealready put one messageon there and +-

STEVE: I haven't heardany.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah David h d, ear it. [gap]STEVE: We want to resolve it. é

KAVANAUGH: Iwant toresolve it,and~you92

make an,n Rg ave it played and then I'm going

to -I, I want toget somekids orwounded out,okly?I'm goingto do the thin f'g irst.We vealready plagone message, you know. [ga J Ok .Ep ay Okay. I need to

I

1 1;! 'YI|"i92l|'92|192,92I92'||¥|92vi||92';i|I||P"||921 ll, 92{{92 ; rt-r"'92Y LIE:123 4567 89012 3 456 789 0 1234511 1 1 111 1 1 1 222222/l__92> C

mmOwmTAFmOTmwmmOQWUum399 11hCI a M123 45678 90 123 4567 89O12341 ll 1 1 11 1 11 22222KI,_

Tape 4!

Phone ringing!

MR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible!

MR. McGHEE:Jim, this is RogerMcGhee.!

MR. KAVANAUGH:Just give meyour-- I'll;

have him call you. What'syournumber? Ii

MR. McGHEE: Indiscernible!

MR. KAVANAUGH; Give me the number.

MR. McGHEE: What's thenumber here '

indiscernible!. Thankyou, 468-- V ~MR. KAVANAUGH: Did you have oneof those

guys call indiscernible! what's, what's the

indiscernible!. k Phone ringing! 1

I

MR. KAVANAUGH:Indiscernible! This is Jim.

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #1:Hello, Jim,isthis Waco? s


UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #1:IndisCernibl%!at the airfield. V

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Holdon just a minut%.Get mesomebodyintherewith aphonenumberthat's gindiscernible! that the indiscernible! guys cancall.

Give meaphonenumber, give meaphonenumber 867-6605.

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #1: 867 what?

2

I92

33MR. KAVANAUGH: 6605.

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #1: All right.

I'll call you right back.

M. KAVANAUGH:Thank you. Hey, there's3

Air Forcecaptain bringingin moreFBI andyou needIohook themup with the --Mr. Gay, the, the airport >

manager indiscernible!Imean, the worst he could sayI

is send them out first thing in the morning. Imean --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: Can't leth

harass indiscernible!.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, that'strue. ;3

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: Indiscernible

MR. KAVANAUGH: Iam too. Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIEDMALE SPEAKER#2= lndiscerniblieMR. KAVANAUGH:Airport manager-- I'll tell

them. I mean, I think we can do it. Imean, he's*

going tobein jeopardy but I mean,you loadthem upIwith, with vests and a helmet and but still, I mean -»

yeah, but they'rekids.That's right. Oh, Iagree, 1

yeah, and we get the ~- I mean a school bus is a ,

nonthreatening thing. I'll talk to Phil, maybe wecam

get something. Hey, we all got to bend a little ~»

indiscernible! come back i > vr

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #2:Yeah,but She?released. i

MR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible! yeah.Yeah.:

-

i

i l

>

O O92 i

who is that? l

GARY: You asked me about wounded, I guess?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, yeah. How manypeople}

are hurt inside?

GARY: Well, rightoff the truth is x dont

know. I heard David saying when they were asking him,

he was talking about there was a leg wound to one

person, another person got it inthe hand and I gue

it was a two-year-old girlthat got killed.

MR. SCHNEIDER: A two~year-old girlwas

killed? E

GARY: Yes, was shot.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, was shot.

GARY: That's terrible. '

MR. SCHNEIDER: And I'mnot sure about -

thinkthere might have been another young one, a small

one that might have, I'm notcertain yet.

GARY: Did, did you know the little girl?

MR. SCHNEIDER: I didn'tget to find out wh

it was because I'vebeen onthe phonealmost totally

the entire time -

»

GARY:Yeah, yeah. '92 i

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- from this morning on so I}

haven'tbeen able -- I'vetalked to a lot of people

about a lot of things.L92

GARY:Yeah, yeah. Well,how do you think~

II

Imean, with the situation that's gone on so far an

the, the tragedy that's, that's, that'sbeen on both

sides? Howdo youthink we might be able to resolveI

this so that we can, we can take care -- I

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's what -- you 2

,know, that's where Ifeel that David -- I'mhere

because the man who has had the ability to harmoniz

many -- in fact all the Bible and, and made --

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- it very clear. So

know, it would -- I would rather, you know, let you

talk with him --

GARY: Sure, I --

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- about that. 92 >92

GARY: -- I do want to talk to David later.E

MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. He'son the phone i4

right now in fact, but --

GARY: Yeah, is he doing an interview now?

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, I believe he is --

GARY: Uh-huh.

MR. SCHNEIDER: -or I know his mother

called there and left a message that she wanted to be

called and, you know, he's talkedto afew like that

92

5

i

and there are relatives here or there -- ~

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- they get a line on the

i

I

2

1 radio and --

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER: --ou k

to alleviate the --

GARY: How does he feel by, by having an

opportunity to explain things --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know

indiscernible!.

about it?

MR. SCHNEIDER: He's happyto have the

Iopportunity --

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER: --to be able CO talk with

people and we don'twant to force our beliefs upon

anyone, we want everyone always to have the

indiscernible! to, to evaluate --

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER: --thereby giving a good

verdict or judgment to what they hear.

GARY: Sure.

»M. SCHNEIDER: And if they don't that it's

there, if it's not reasonable and --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and concise and so forth

well, you know, that'sthe freedom that God has given

GARY: --from his side, that he feels bette

6

y now, so he s trying

I

I I I I

I

I I I I I I I

I I I

I I I

I 92

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every one of us.

GARY: Yeah, yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:So, you know, that'sthe way

it's been.But, youknow,Imeanwe, wewere always?

hoping thatmusic wouldbe thevery vehiclethat we1might be able to make a statement to the world in a i

ivery common,decent way. But David, you'll findout he

went to a lot of churches. I went with him to soman

of them.

GARY: Uh-huh.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Went up against the scholar

they could not controvert the doctrine.

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I mean,when youcan goto ai1Bible and not give an opinion in theory but answer L

every question withchapters and context. Isaw

scholars that were 70 years old, one mancould speak 60

languages, they had nothing to say in response because

they knew the man had something.

GARY: Well, you know, I --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Just like when I tried to

controvert him for quite some timebefore I actually

became involved.

GARY: Well, David is obviously very

important in your life.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, it's, it's, it'sin

»1

3

K V I1

»

92 I1

I Uthat if he has the truth because I wantto live .

gforever. Ever since I was a very small child --

GARY: Um-hum.

looked up at the stars and wondered why is this --

where are we going, how did we get here, what's thi

vast expanse about? *

GARY: Yeah.

everything dies here, plants, people, animals, 6,000

pleasure butwe're never satisfied and fulfilled and

relatives can be taken out of your life, friends,

accidents. God, what's goingon?

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Who are you, God?

GARY: Yeah.

to know God. I tried it the Christian routine for the

majority of my life and in honesty, I mean, I've never

really known God but I've alwayswanted to know God.

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! claim to know

him now, but I do see something about a book that's

very logical and clear and this man alsohas opened up

very deep sciences, physics, astronomy and these are

1 8

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- I'vealways like yourself

MR. SCHNEIDER:Why isthis earth a cemetery

years of woe and human history. We get a littlebit o

MR. SCHNEIDER: But I'venever really claimed

the things that not many have gotten to hear recent

but those that have gotten to sit down and study

been totally astounded.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: But --

how, how is hefeeling with his injuries?

M. SCHNEIDER: He said he's sore.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, well, yeah, well,

talking all day long.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: And so far, I mean,

so --

of confusion inside. You must be --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well -- '

todayand indiscernible!.

that David-- I guess David did aradio interview and

iy

indiscernible! would have gotten to the place where

you'd havegotten to hear those things and wouldhave

i

GARY: Youknow, I've just beenhandeda note

that's, that'sbeen completed. It -- you know, I --

that's whathe said, he's soreand, you know, he'sbee

everything -- he's doingokay. He was bleeding earlie

in the day but that'sallbeen stopped andeverything

GARY; Well, there must, there must be a lot

9

i92$IE

GARY: BoyI wouldthink he'dmore than sorei

>

»}

GARY: -- allwondering what, what'shappened

1@l

is --

I GARY: Yeah.

very onset of the thing--

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:

bang, bang, bang, bang, bang and I mean coming from

outside.

GARY: Um-hum.

about, "Stop, we'vegot women and children here."

remember him yelling that, I heardit very clearl

And that's

Y.

and windows and all --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: It was, it was amazing.

GARY: I guess everythingsort of turned

topsy-turvy afterthat.

MR. SCHNEIDER:

we, we like -- wedon't--I don't knowany of your

agents or anything like that but I, I -- you know, I

have great'respectand like he hashad all his lifethe law and people involved and trying to protect

little ways from itwhen all of a sudden I heard this

MR. SCHNEIDER: I heard him yelling somethin

when I saw the wallsbeing just ripped up 1

i |>

110

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, the truthof the matter

MR. SCHNEIDER: -what indiscernible! the

rI

I mean I was standing righti

near thefront doorand Ihad just walkedaway down a92 92

the

ir»92»

x 3

II

i

1

Yeah, you know, and I mean

for

92

1 others freedoms and, and --

2

3

11

times in history conflicts get started and unfortuna

things happen and it's --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, and I'm notsa

indiscernible!.

Yins

GARY: -- because people don't really

understand each other.

MR. SCHNEIDER:

there --definitely it was confusi th

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- I would have given

anything in this world if, if -like, like David sai

he hadhoped thatRobert wouldhave goneback toyou

and saidthis manis really interestedin showing the

Bible andhe wouldhave lovedto sit down withyou _people --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and, andanswerany

questions, if youwouldhave hada warrant for him he

n happy to go with you.

GARY: Umhum.

would have bee

MR. SCHNEIDER:And if youwant to know whywe havebeen -- like if you hearthe interviewhehas

just doneontheradio, he'll letyou knowthe reasonswhy wewereeven having anyweapons whatsoever.It

ls

ll

GARY: Well, it's a shame.I think so many

te

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don't want

do

an devise a a

O I .' I92

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it's abiblical thing. It's notagainst you, it's dot

against anybody. A

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: But it goes back to the BeckA r

of Luke,Chapter22,verses 36 through38, butit ha%to be seen inlight of the Bookof Revelationand the92writings of the prophet. D

k

GARY: You know, Steve, Iknow we've just metI1

and just getting to know each other, but you know I

hope, Ihope you think and, and will, will understan

that I don't wantto see anybody in there hurt and I I

to see anybody outsidehurt. 3

M. SCHNEIDER: Ireally appreciate that, I

GARY:And,and Igenuinelywant tosee if welan't resolve this. A

192

MR. SCHNEIDER: All right, good. E

GARY: And I'd liketo, I'dlike to see if w

, method bywhich we can put these h

apons down and come on out.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that'swhat we would

ke to talk to you about.

GARY: well,I d beglad. I think -- 192> MR. SCHNEIDER: Negotiate and ~» 1

ndiscernible!.

GARY: -- Ithink we can do that, Ithink we

r

92

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i

.

I

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can do that, I'm,I'm --I don'thave any doubt of

I know you're concernedabout your security in thene

based on what'shappened but I think --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.

GARY: --but I think we can,I think we canI

address thoseconcerns in a way that, that you find

appropriate andsuitable andthat wecan, wecan get92thismatter attended to.I mean,I'm just- there's,there's notmuchsensefor this to continue onand -

MR. SCHNEIDER:I agree, I agree. y

GARY: -- and haveadditional people hurt. E

I'd liketo get back to wherewewere withJim on the92}

children. I'd like to see if wecan -- ~Is

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah, that's -- N9292

EGARY: -- get somemore kids out. What do F

you think? E

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, that sounds goodto mIn fact -- '

GARY: Yeah. 3

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- Jim had kind of suggested92

that,you know, hisbeing tired and soforth that we'dtake a little --

GARY: Sure. 92

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- break and a rest.i

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:A lot of themare laying down4

92 >

I4

14

i and sleeping now so --

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and, you know, everybody

is quite tired, you know, hyped up after all such an'k

experience and --

GARY: Yeah, yeah. -

MR. SCHNEIDER:So forthat reasonI waskihdof formyself, notso muchDavid's part,but Iwas kindof happy just to take alittle break. v

GARY: Yeah, well, I'll, I'll -- 1K

MR. SCHNEIDER: But of course --

GARY: -- you know, it's, it'salways a nic

thing when, you know,we've gotso manypeople out her

from so many different organizations and agencies. ,

when westart demonstrating that we'rehaving children

come onout and that everybodys healthy and when, wheni

good shapeit just creates a real good feeling on both

sides, don't you think?

MR. SCHNEIDER:It does, it does, because we,

wewant them to be out, you know, and --

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you can look at them and

check them over and --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- you know, see thatthey're

you seethat we'vebrought themhere andthey're in92

92

92

1

i

l92

92 I192 l92

E

ihealthy and --

of the kids and there's genuine

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah,

GARY: Yeah. So, how

another two out?

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well,

even now if you would like.

GARY: Sure, I would.

GARY: Um-hum.

MRSCHNEIDER

talking with, Steve?

.: Okay.

Wtalking to him right no and --

GARY: Yeah.

GARY: Yeah.

honest with him.

GARY: Yeah,I really would like to do tha

MR.SCHNEIDER: I'm talkingto Gary whohas

replaced Jim. Jim is getting some rest right now

if you would like, you know,he's willingto keep on I

}» I

GARY: Yeah,I saw them here, the, the, the

ladies from the Child Service are taking real good dare

affection and --x

we appreciate that. 1

can we work to get 3

&

we can start doing thatl

r

MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! to go on. i

i

working and remove morechildren if you want.

Does -- is that David you're

David is -- I'm

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and he's beenhappy and he

likes dealing with Jim, he's beenso forthright and --

MR.SCHNEIDER: -- frank and, and open and

l

92

»

1 16* GARY: Well, I think now, you --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Infact, here's whatJim said

to him indiscernible!.

p GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: He said, "Don't deal with

anybody but me," that's what he told David. S

GARY: Well -- '92

MR. SCHNEIDER:Even when another faction, i

the Sheriff's Department, had Wayneindiscernible!1

another phone line -- 3

GARY: Yeah. '

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I understand many opposi

and different things than what Jim -- Jim says, "No, ikI>

David, let'syou and I deal on this all the way ~

through." And David says, "Because of what he all»

showed -- "- 5k

GARY: Yeah. i v

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- " -- his honesty," and,

and, you know, youguys showedthat you were doing what

you were saying and it was working out very well so he

wants to continue I guess the same program with Jim,

that's whathe was just telling me right now.

GARY: Yeah, well, Ithink we can continue

the same problem but, but, but it'llbe with me now

because Jim'sgone, but, you know, Steve, you've,

you've talked --

II

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2

9 minute.

11 me.

20

21

E24 story.

25

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12 Gap!

13 MR. SCHNEIDER: Gary?

14 GARY: Yeah?

15 MR. SCHNEIDER: Here'sDavid.

16 GARY: Okay, okay, Steve. Hi, David? 1

17 MR. KORESH: Gary? i

23 MR. KORESH: Well, I'm, I'm

_ RK 173

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that'swhat he - I

GARY: -- you've talkedwith me for a while

3 now and, and David hasn'tand Ithink maybe I can

4depend on you to, to tell David that --

5 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well --

6 GARY: --you know, Gary is just like Jim 1

7 and, and, and he also cares for --

8 MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! just a r' '92

i,

10 GARY: Sure, I wish you'd dothat. Excuse RF»l

XK

iX3a

1:

18 GARY:Hi, David.

19 MR. KORESH: Yeah.

GARY: David, how are you feeling?

Q XMR. KORESH:A little pain, a little pain.

y22 GARY:I'm surprised if it's justa little.

telling you a

Steve called me up. I

comfortable in talking

to be here for a while

same things that, that

can't develop the same

that ~-

MR. KORESH:

my word, that I'd deal

GARY: Yeah.

MR. KORESH:

GARY: What,

' 1

Ax 18know, I know you were real

with Jim and,but, but I'mgoing

now and I want :o do the very

Jim did with you and see if we

kind of trusting relationshipg

I told I promised Jim,I gaveK

with nobodybut Jim. 1a 1

That'swhathe made me promise

what,whathe was talkingaboudin thatregard though wasthe otherphone linethatwasgoing on and he --

MR. KORESH: That's notwhathe said.

92 92

iGARY: Well -- i

MR. KORESH: He said we're goingto do this

together to the end.

1i

GARY: Yeah, but, but I mean, he --

MR. KORESH:No buts, that's whathe said,

you know?

GARY: And he meant that.

MR. KORESH: Now, now, what you failed to do

is that there's agentsclimbing ~-like I said, wegotnight vision.

GARY: Yeah, I understand. I

MR. KORESH:And, and the thing of it is is

that there'sguyscoming from the

from theback of the property and

closer and closer.

GARY: No, we're,we're

away, and, and --

MR. KORESH: No, you're

keeping them away.

GARY: Yeah, Steve -- I

mentioned this before and we told

they said they weren'tin that bui

MR. KORESH: Well, they

in that building, we'renot stupid

GARY: No, no, no ones

David, you know, we don't wantto

hurt. After what's happenedtoday

barnand comin

they're getting

keeping those guys

not, you are not

just got -- Steve

the tactical team,

lding.

reNational--they

suggesting that.

see anybody else

~

MR. KORESH: Exactly, now why --

GARY: -~ it's been terr

and youknowwe'renot going to assaultthat building, i

that's notin, that'snot in anybody's interest.And

ible on both sides

92

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92

are

r

I,92

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1you knownobody's goingto do anything toharm youor

the kids. Now, whathappened todaywasatragedy and

we just don't wantto make it worse. I mean, I,I know

you agreewith that.

MR. KORESH:So, whyare theystill coming?

GARY: I'm,I'm sendinanother messa eto

92K 492

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MR. KORESH: No --

theyre lying to you.

you have over the National Guard?

GARY: Pardon?

MR. KORESH: D0 h

National Guard?

you know that.

GARY:

ago from --

were in the area. I

perimeter.

MR.KORESH: Yh

GARY: Okay.

MR.KORESH: So

GARY: Oka .W 11

going to send a message and I'm writi

GARY: I didn't know -- Imean I kn

GARY: -- they're not there.

MR. KORESH: -- they are here, they're,

GARY: Okay. Well, they --

MR. KORESH: The National Guard is here.

didn't knowthey were in the

ea , they re in our property.

you need, you need to get

with those guys and tell them to pull back.

going out right as we speakto do that. S bome odys

ng it down,

ew they

K

2

MR.KORESH: You know, how much control dol

z

you aveanycontrol over the

x

GARY: The National Guard's out there too?

MR.KORESH: Yeah, theNational Guardsherek

No, I, I just got here about twohourd

y e , well, and, and the word's

20

92

1I1

i92

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somebody's goingto send a messageinthere to téll

themthat.David, I'd, I'dreally like to work with

you again on seeing if

M. KORESH:

what I'mgoing to do --

GARY: Okay.

MR. KORESH:

one of them out.

GARY: Well,

MR. KORESH:

negotiate and see what

to do.

GARY: Well,

MR. KORESH:

is get my babies out.

GARY: Well,

M. KORESH:

the phone --

we can'tget some more kids out.

Well, that's what I'm,that's

-- I'mgoing toget everylést

good. -

And Jim, Jim says we'll, weill

they want to do and what we Mant92

that's fine here. i

But the first thingI want to do

I, I want to help you do than.

Now, so when Jim gets back on

GARY: Jim, Jim's notgoing to be back

tonight, David, and --

MR. KORESH:

promised me that --

GARY: Well,

people here and Jim's,

M.KORESH:

Well, he, he told me, he

you know, there's a lot of

Jim's justone guy and -- ~ >

No, but Jim is the one that I E

made the agreement with. E

I 22

GARY: Well,Jim's agreementis good with me.Now, David --

MR.KORESH: It isnot, that's notwhat we

agreed on.

GARY: David,now, you've,you've toldme andSteve toldme howyou wantto workthis outwithus andyou wantto negotiatewithus now. Now,do, do yqu

thinkthat I'm,I'm notgoing tofollow suitwithwhatJim said? -

MR. KORESH:Me andJim madean agreement.GARY: Um-hum. 1

MR.KORESH: Wait a second.

MR.SCHNEIDER: Gary?

GARY: Yes?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah seenow, David'ssayinghim andJim madean agreementand, andeven Jimdid~

tell methat,he said that,"Steve ifyou'd likeyou;can talk withGary." I said, "I will, I'll *

continue--" --1

GARY: Um-hum. j

M.SCHNEIDER: -- I said, "We'llgive you

break." Hesaid hewas verytired.He said, "Steve,,k

why don'tyou takea break,"he said,"and Itrust you,nothing's goingto happen,we're notgoing tohave anypeople comeon."é

GARY: Um-hum.

v

I

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123

MR. SCHNEIDER:He says,"If you want when

the morning comes youcan take a little rest and let

your people rest and maybe be refreshed in the

morning." He says, "We can pick up on it right

there - continue bringing the children out," which wewill do.

GARY: Um-hum. 1

MR. SCHNEIDER:Wewill continue to do sd.

GARY: Well,Ithink we shoulddo it rightHOW .'

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well -- well, get Jim onthephone then. I

GARY: Jim,Jim is long sincegone tobed korthe night. 1

:

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, yousee that's--what,

what doyou think the condition we'rein right now? ,

GARY: Well, Iknow, I know, and, and --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!

GARY: - are we going to make the whole i

thing dependentupon Jimthough, Steve? - i MR. SCHNEIDER:Itmay be becauseif he said

he gavehis wordand that'sthe wayit was going tobdand that's where --

GARY: I know. ,

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- stands with David. }

GARY: I, Iunderstand, but, but Ihope David

24i

will be open enough. If, if you're bothgenuine in

wanting to resolve the situation peacefully 4

MR. SCHNEIDER:You know, I.understand the

psychology you'reusing.

GARY: No, I'm notusing psychology. I'm

just using --

MR. SCHNEIDER:No, no,no, I -- okay,let's --

GARY: -~plain old common sense. I

MR. SCHNEIDER:-okay, Gary, okay, but * L

still, you know, the bottom line isbecause of the 5

predicament we're in - I

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- the circumstances, we'restill --you know, you get this indiscernible! of

know, wewant totrust you, you've shownus somethingsbut -- l i

GARY: That'sright. 1

MR. SCHNEIDER:-let's-you know, let

have yougo a little bit further here and, and

indiscernible!.

GARY: But Steve, what if I said, what if I l

said to you Steve,I don'twant totalk to you, I onlyl

want to talk to David? Would -- I mean,that wouldn't1

make sense would it?

MR. SCHNEIDER: It - well, it

i 92

I

92

indiscernible!.

s '25

GARY: No, no, because I wantto talk to

anybody in there.

MR. SCHNEIDER: No, you can talk to me but at

the same time it was David and Jim thatgot this

negotiation going --

GARY: Right.

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- so that's where it

indiscernible!.

92

GARY: Well, they got, they got it going and

they made some great progress --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, sure, and I agree

GARY: -- and there'sabsolutely no reasoné

why we can't gofurther with it.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, if you'd like to

upJim and, and ask him about it --

GARY: Well, I ~

MR. SCHNEIDER: -because he gave his

already. I mean indiscernible!.

GARY: Jim, Jimgave hisword but,you

Jim, Jim'snot the only person out here, Steve.

you be reasonable on this? A

MR. SCHNEIDER: I am being reasonable.

going by what the man told me --

GARY: Okay.

Y»v

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wake

92

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know,

Can't92

1

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MR. SCHNEIDER:-and he was very clear, it

,

I,

92

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V 92

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92

' 92 _ 26

was not --' f

GARY: If Jim, if Jim --

MR. SCHNEIDER:--he wasn't ambiguousabout

what he was saying.

GARY: SoI'm,I'mto understandthat then

you would,you woulddo everythingJim wouldtell you?:1

MR. SCHNEIDER: No, infact -

GARY: Well, see --

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- whathe left as hisword,I said, that's fineand if you wantedto get him up§and,and restart thisthing that's finealso --

GARY: Youknow, it almost soundslike -- x

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- but then if --

GARY:--we'reletting, we'reletting the}kids suffer because of this --

MR. SCHNEIDER:They aren'tsuffering rightlnow. 1

GARY: -- and --

MR. SCHNEIDER:As long as you are where K>

you're atand you give us your word --

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and we giveyou our * 92Kx

word --'

GARY: Right.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- everything is goingto

P92

92 92 i 92 92

1~192 92

27

relationship.

GARY: Right.

MR. SCHNEIDER:By letting that little time

go by you'll, you'llsee that all the moreI'm going to

put more trust in someone like yourself. .

GARY: Sure. Well, we're,we're, we'renot

going todo anythingto causeanybody anyharm. I jstv

think it'sunfortunate though that we can't keep7

communicating and negotiating. l

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well,we're ~- well, that'mO _ 92

whatwe're doing right now. 1

GARY: Yeah, but I mean, David's just shut K

the door on me. .

MR. SCHNEIDER: No, he didn'tshut the door

on you.

GARY: N0?

MR. SCHNEIDER: Not at all. In fact, that's

-- we'repicking up on what Jim last told us and that's

why I said but through that timeI'm still willing totalk to you --

GARY: Well .

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- without even going to

sleep indiscernible!.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- been talking to you to

make sure ever thin &#39 s cool --

28

GARY: Yeah. 1

MR. SCHNEIDER:-that what's goingon here,

what we can observe and see --

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and you can keep us

informed that everything is still fine.

GARY: Yeah, I understand, I understand, andI know --

MR. SCHNEIDER:He's theone that said takea

little break, I know it's beena, it'sbeen a lot om

you and it's beena lot on us and -~ 1

GARY: Yeah. _ ,1IMR. SCHNEIDER:-- we, we said we appreciate

that.

I

GARY: Um-hum, no, and, and, and that's,

that's correctbut, youknow, Jim,Jim hadto leave nowand ~- »

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, but do you understand

it's -you know,it's hardto keepyour witsabout youi

when, youknow, you'regoing onfor like say 24 hours?

GARY: Yeah,yeah, I know.

MR. SCHNEIDER:So, you know, we're--I -

we're getting to a place here where, you know, I don't

want to do anything jumpy or foolish or off-the-wall or

I mean,or have,have anybody heredo anythinglikethat.

92i92

3

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GARY: No, I certainly agree with you there.

MR. SCHNEIDER:See, that'sthe whole point.

GARY: Umhum.

MR. SCHNEIDER: So, what Jim suggested

sounded very reasonable, it madea lot of sense to he.

GARY: Yeah.Well, whatJim wassuggestihg_

was that Jim had been on the phone with you so long

that Jim needed to take a, take a breath and take a

break.

MR. SCHNEIDER: You mean like me? '

GARY: Pardon?

MR. SCHNEIDER: You mean like me?

GARY: Exactly, exactly, so you know what I?m

saying. And Jim had to take a, a mental break for a E

minute because what you'regoing through -- 3

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, I haven't, Ihaven't E

myself.

GARY: I know, I know, and we took that >

little break for a while.

KMR.SCHNEIDER: For afew minutes, but he's

continued on through and I appreciate that he had and

said, "Look, Jim, if that's what you suggest and, and

you'vegivenus sometrust and vice versa -~ " --

GARY : Um -hum .

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- " -- we'vegiven you the

trust," he thought that was great. We madevery good

92I 0 0

1- =1 30

progress andhe said,"Let's pickup onthis andif youwould likewe'll continuetalkingtoyou by phoneieverynow and then." I said, "That is fine."

GARY: Good.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I says,"If you wouldlikewe'll ---- I says,"I'll,I'll leaveit thatway andwe'll buildon thattrustrelationship." i

GARY: Okay.I, Iagreewith youandI,andIdon'twant to-- 2

MR. SCHNEIDER:Thank you,Gary --

GARY:-- Idon'twant to --

MR.SCHNEIDER:-- honestly, thank you,Ivmean that. 1

GARY: Butyou know,beforealittle while 1

agowewere talking aboutyou did say you didn'tsee

anyreasonwhy we couldn'tgo aheadand makesome

arrangements forsomeof thekids now andkeep,keeppgoing likewewere. .

lMR.SCHNEIDER:Well, that's-- well, see *

that's --I know,but that's becauseI wasgoing tosleaveit -- or, orwhere David wastheone began--

GARY:Yeah.

MR.SCHNEIDER:-- this withhim and, youknow,the one hetalkedto,right, I'm surewasJimand, andbecausesomuch wasworkedout and --

GARY:Um-hum.

3l

MR. SCHNEIDER:--the very wordhe gavehim

and everything, you know,he's alreadybuilt a

foundation with him. And not ~-

GARY= Sure.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and not to take anything

away fromyou, but it began so well that way and

indiscernible!. ~92

GARY: Well,then wecan just build on thatrelationship. '

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, well, that's whatI'h

saying, but his final suggestion madea lot of - iti

was veryreasonable, madealot of sensebecause of dhecondition we'rein and what's alltaken place. You

know,aslate asitgets people aregoing toget morek jittery and soforth and if they have -I

GARY: Well,we don'twant thatto happen. 1

MR. SCHNEIDER:But see, that's whatI'm

talking about. And youknow, Imean Ican speakfor

myself butthere arepeople here,you know,that stillwant to do what they want to do.

GARY: Howdo people feel in there now?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, I you know

indiscernible! littlenervous and jumpy whenthey see

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- any kind of movement out

92

I

[

1-.

.I

32

there. They-you know, theywant totrust A

indiscernible! allthe moreand alot of them do,butat the same timethere'sa lot of people that are

still, you know, becauseof whatall took place

earlier. .GARY: Yeah.Well, howis yourmorale ih

there andeverything? Imean, peopleholdingupokay?MR. SCHNEIDER:Morale isvery good,yeah.GARY: iYeah?

MR. SCHNEIDER:You know,it's again,based onsomething outsideourselves.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:We're -you know,we're Klooking at a higherpower thanourselves.

GARY: Umhum. »

MR. SCHNEIDER:That's wherewe canget our1

strength. .GARY: Yeah,yeah. Youknow, DavidsoundedE

like he was insome, somepretty significant i

discomfort. 1

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, especiallyfrom talkingfrom, youknow, earlythis --you know, fromthemorning hours right --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- on through afterall thattook place,he's noteven hada, a breakwhatsoever,

, F

92

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~ 33

not --

GARY: What, what sort of medical care is he

receiving? I mean, has he got --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, we have nurseshere--GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and they've attendeddohim and ~-

GARY: Is he bandagedup pretty good? i

MR. SCHNEIDER:From whatI understand, yeah.GARY: Yeah.2

MR. SCHNEIDER:He's gota niceshirt on andeverything so he looks good to me. N

l

GARY: Yeah. Is heable to walk around? ;

MR. SCHNEIDER:No,rightnow he's relaxingGARY: Yeah. Q MR. SCHNEIDER:He's smilingat mein fact.EGARY: He'ssmiling? ~

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.A

GARY: Wouldit be possible for me totalk to11David somemore? <

MR. SCHNEIDER:Would youwant totalk with LGary still or would it be possible to talk somemore?. 1

He's beentalking so long. Is thereany way wecould Eget a little break and - ~

GARY: Sure.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- could I, could I call you

5 4

,5

, 6

5 7

. s

11 I

12

Iright back, Gary?

2 GARY: Sure, no, that'sfine.

3 MR. SCHNEIDER: Evenfrom where I'm sittin

s arting to quite sore to be

honest withyou.

GARY: Well, you know what, take a rest an

you know, and --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.

| 9 n

GARY: -- and what we'll dois -- you know10 what I' 'm goingto do is, you and Davidtalk and, and

m going to ~

MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.

GARY: -- stretch my legs. But -- Il

MR. SCHNEIDER: Sounds good. 3

ld just ask youto:think of one thing. 92

GARY: -- I just -- Iwou

M.SCHNEIDER: Okay.

to center everything on, on just individuals because

this is more important than just --

MR. SCHNEIDER: N0, I, I --

GARY: - one person here.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-no, Iagree. Iwouldn't

ishas to, you know -- »

GARY: Yeah, yeah.

want to be so fool

MR. SCHNEIDER: --peg anything into one

GARY: And,and I think Idon'twant you 1

i

II

E

I9

right here my butt's t' '

92 dI

v

. 92

l 3 5

little hole, but -~ 1

GARY: There's, there's, there'sa lot of --

well, you know, if you'll justlisten to me for a

second. There'sa lot of good people out here, Steve.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.I

GARY: And,and I know what'shappened todayl

may cause you to doubt that sometimes, but there 1

really, really is, And there's peopleout herethat92want tosee everybodyinside therecome outand notbehurt and sothis situation can be resolved and that 1

92

everybody hasan opportunityto - i

MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm surethat -~ 92

GARY: - to say this is what happenedand 1

this is our perspectiveonit, this is-- you know,ha?an opportunityto air the wholesituation. And, andwe

can get it -- we can, we canmove beyondwhereweare,§

and everybodywantsthat.And, and I'mhere to help X

youin any way I can, andI want to see thoselittle EE

children comeout, and I want to see you comeout and It1want to see David come-out and all the women in there

and I don't wantto see --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, I appreciate that.

GARY: - anybodyelse get hurt.

MR. SCHNEIDER:No, well, that's --you know,

that's whatwe wantto do is talk with you and startworking that out.

.

,a92

92

GARY: Yeah, and I'mgoing t

night for you so --

MR. SCHNEIDER:And I apprec

K.36

0 be here all

iate that.

GARY: -- I think I- you know, I, Iwould

hope that the samesort of trust -~ Ji

enough to have metalk to you and I th

tellyou a lotand if he --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, thanks

tohave alittle -- you know, I, I do

you are going to allow for us to have

here. I mean, likemy legsare cramped

GARY: Yeah.

MR. scrmsxnsm -- my butt's

GARY: Well --

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- you know,

talking on the phonesfor so long it's

GARY: Yeah,but it's thewa

useful time spent becausewe've gotten

other better, we've, we'vestopped a1

from developing, we've clarifiedsome

misunderstandings,Ithink we've estab

faith. We'vehopefully demonstratedt

sincerity and our genuineinterest in

And Iwant you and David to think abou

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.

GARY: -- after you rest.

m trusts me .

ink that should92 r

for allowinglmei

appreciate that92

a little break92

soreand --

sitting here V

y -- it's been ,

to know each92

ot of problems 3

1xK

lished some good 1K

o you our, our 11

everybody inside.

t those things --

C

5

37

MR. SCHNEIDER:Right. '

GARY: And,and believe me, we'll- we're

flexible, we'll work with youin anywaywe can -+

MR. SCHNEIDER:Thank you,Gary, I reallyindiscernible!.

GARY: ~to resolve this but, you know,be

assured, youknow, we'll,we'll take care of this

movement outthere. I'msure there'sa lot edgy and--

edgy people,but nobodyis comingin to get you. 1

MR. SCHNEIDER:Thank you,thank youso mubh.GARY: Okay? 1MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay, Gary.

GARY: Butwe expect you tobe responsibleinthere andto takecare ofyourselves, takecare ofthekids. But I'll behere and - _

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.kGARY:- you'll getback withme ina little

Kbit?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yes, I will, Gary.IGARY: Okay, Steve.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Thank youmuch.

GARY:Good enough.

MR. KORESH: Bye-bye.

GARY:Byebye.

Gap!

GARY:Hello?

E

92 1

92 92

r

92

92

38

MR. SCHNEIDER:Hello, Gary?

GARY: Yes.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Steve back here.

GARY: Yeah, Steve.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I'm losingmy voice.

GARY: Yeah. You all right?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, yeah.Anyway, thebuys just reportedto methatthey saw menrightupat thefront door even. 2

GARY: Nobody'sat your front door, Steve,'not 92

MR. SCHNEIDER:who would itbe?

GARY: Itmust beone ofyour people.You %-MR. SCHNEIDER:Hang on,hang on.GARY: Umhum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Serious-- justhang on.GARY: Sure.

Unidentified malevoice in background.!Gap!

MR. SCHNEIDER:These guysare sayingtheysaw men out front.

GARY: Now,I don'tknow ifit's becauseofwhat's happenedtoday, they'reseeing shadowsorwhatever. Iam toldthere isnobody onyour property.

- MR. SCHNEIDER: You'retoldthat,but you'requitea distanceaway at the sametime andthere --

.-

0 0 p39

GARY: Well, you're ~- .

MR. SCHNEIDER:--is -there was a semi or

some humongoustruck thatdid pull onPerry'spropertyclearly seen - I

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-just across the road.; All¬

of a sudden nowwe havemen incertain areasaroundthe

perimeter. Thesethey seemoving, movingright in thefront - =

GARY:Yeah. @

MR. scnnsrnsa:-- someright up close bythe

door. yGARY:Well, the're certainlypeople on the

perimeter butthere's nobodyonyourproperty and if 1

they wereup to the front doorthat,that would havedo

be on your property, right? I mean, doyou think

someone wouldbe foolish enough tocome upto your

front door with what'sgone on?92

MR. SCHNEIDER:Are you serious after what 19292

happenedeven this morning? iI GARY:Yeah,I'm -- that'swhatI'msaying, K

nobody is going to come upto the front door.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I don'tknow. I mean --

GARY:NO. ~

MR. SCHNEIDER:~- I meanI would have never

thoughtthatwhat happened thismorning wouldhave

92

40

happened.

GARY: I knowit, Iknow it,and it's a

tragedy that we don'twant to see repeated, but I, I--

MR. SCHNEIDER:Gary,boy, I'lltell youwhat --

GARY: Yeah?

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- if, if there is anybody

there, if it does go on again, only this time it

probably will not quit. 1

GARY: Yeah.After we got off the phonelesttime --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.

GARY: --I, I, I, Ihad ameeting with theh

the tactical people hereandI,I said Iwas very 1

concerned thatdespite whatthey weretelling meIkeepgetting these reports that there'speople there. Andthey - b

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, no, Jim wastelling mek

the same.Were youthere when Jim wastelling me --GARY: Yeah.

M. SCHNEIDER:-- that there wasfive guys,

couple across,couple acrossthe street by the bushes

and trees,he saidthey sawabout fiveor somethingnear the guard gate. W

GARY: Uh-huh.

MR. SCHNEIDER:That's whathe asked -- Kevin

l92

Q I

; 41

asked meif that our guys.I says, "We don't have

anybody outthere, no one whatsoever,positively not."GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:And we get sita out there--

GARY: Well, Ihope there's noreporters --

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- she looked out there with92

her flashlight,wentrightinto that guardgate anditherewas not a soul there.

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:So myself I'm wondering

what's -- just aminute.

GARY: Um-hum.

Gap!

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. I'mglad with Gary

indiscernible! nowhe's tellingme hethinks it mighthave been adog.

GARY: It might have been adog, yeah. I

mean, I, I know everybody is jumpyin there, but I mean

withwhat's gone on there's justno --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, that'swhatI, whatI

figured, you know, and --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and you guysgave your

word, youseem relaxed,you seem,you know,like youwantto resolve it and endit all, well, okay, that'swhatwe're going to do.

I"

92

r

92

K

,_

S

1 42

GARY: Yeah.There's, there'sno -- there'sreally nothing for us to, to gain by trying to E a

surreptitiously -- 4


GARY: -- put somebodyup on your front door.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. Doyou mindif I jhstlay downfor aboutahalf hour here? E

GARY: Not at all. y

MR. SCHNEIDER:Thanks. I got a, I'vegotlalittle bit ofa headachehere. §

GARY: Yeah,that's, that'sfine. I hope,Fhope youand Davidhadalittle chance tochat beforeybut --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, actually just got --

you know,there's --you know,now andthen youget a Ephone call and --

GARY: Yeah.

M. SCHNEIDER:-- and I was hoping just to

put my head down just for afew minutes and --

GARY: You'regetting calls from the pressor --

MR. SCHNEIDER:You know,you, you get callsfrom just about everything ~-

GARY: Yeah. .

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- or everybody today. I

mean, youknow, relatives and friends and pressand --

92 .92

92 92 1

iI

92

I

92

sv W

1 43

GARY: It'smadealot of news. 1RMR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, I'msure of that.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Never wantedit to be likethat. .

GARY: No, I don't think anybody did.I _ MR. SCHNEIDER: Ohno, nowayin the worlh,

notat the cost forany -a humanlife, youknow. iI,mean, makesus all sick, everyone of us --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-~ seriously,and-- GARY: Well,I'm hopingthat we can work

together to,to thebest ofour abilitiesto, torightthe wrongsthat -- Y

MR. SCHNEIDER:Right.

GARY: -have takenplace and,andwehave Eto look to the future and say that --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Exactly.

GARY: ~-we just hopethatif you don'tlearn anything from mistakesand -- 5

1MR. SCHNEIDER:Then we'llrepeat thesame1thing.

GARY: That, that it wasawaste, yeah.M. SCHNEIDER:Exactly. N

GARY: But I, I think wecan hopefully allsomehow learnfromthis. Did --I hope - please

QO

A 44

convey toDavid whenyou geta chance after you'vehad

a rest or whatever that,you know, I'vemet with he

tactical people and again-~

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, okay.

GARY: -- addressed your concerns and --


GARY:~ my biggest concern is that the I

press or somebody mightbe looseout there, but I hopethat's not the case --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Right. y

GARY: and it'scertainly not our peopleh

MR. scrmsxnsm Okay. ',

GARY: Okay?

MR. SCHNEIDER: Thank you, Gary.

GARY:All right, Steve - :

I MR. SCHNEIDER:I'm justgoing to just put my

head down indiscernible!.

GARY: -- get, get the rest that you

need ~-

MR. SCHNEIDER: Thanks.

GARY: -- and, and I'll beherewhen you call

back.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I, I really thank you so

much.

GARY: Okay.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. Talk toyou a little

,,_.

92.

245later. ~

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay, bye.

GARY: Byebye.

Gap!

Dial tone! Phone dialing! Electronic:1Inoises!

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #3:I'm gettingnoringat all. i

Electronic noises.! -

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER#3:There's92

indiscernible!.

9292

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #4:What's that??

Electronic noises! Phone ringing!

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #4:Time is4:28 a.m. Phone ringing! Unidentified malevoicesin background.!

MR. SCHNEIDER:Hello? Hello, is this Gary?GARY: Yeah, Steve?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, Steve.Iheard youwere trying to get a hold of us.

GARY: Yeah.Didn't youhear thephoneringing?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Could youhear metalking or,or anyone else?

GARY: I didn't hear.

~I x

h 46923

MR. SCHNEIDER:You know,the crazythingsrings, wepick it upand there's nothingon it but wecan call out on the stupid thing.

GARY: Oh, is that right?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, I'mnot -- I'm trying

to figure out what'sgoing onhere andIcan't,I dbntknow what,what the phone indiscernible!.

GARY: So,you hear,you hearit ringing andyou pickit upbut -- i

MR. SCHNEIDER:Exactly, and the --

GARY: -- no, I'mnot --

M. SCHNEIDER:-- last timeIeven said let92 »it ringafew times andwe did,picked itupand it's}

like thereis nothingon there.You canhear kindof Elike, youknow,it'slive butyou can'thear anythingI

l

GARY: Yeah. a

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- so I've been-- we'vebeen"r

saying if, if you'rethere try the othernumber and--

GARY: Well,I'm, I'msorry aboutthat,that -- I, I thoughtmaybe thatyou werestill sleepingor whateverand I didn't wantto disturb you.

M. SCHNEIDER: N0.

GARY: Butwe hadareport a little while agoof someactivity outin thefront ofyour placefrom,from yourfolks and,andI was a little concerned about

1 V

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i 47

that and I wanted to - I

MR.SCHNEIDER: Well, what kind of activity?

GARY: Well, some movement of somepeople out

near thefront near the front door.

MR.SCHNEIDER: Nobody, no one's beengoing92

out of the building, nobody whatsoever indiscernible!

because rememberbeforewhenwe thoughtthesame thing

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- thatwe thought it might

have beena dog then.Could that bepossible? i

GARY: No, I don'tthink so. I, Ithink the

people on the perimeter saw somepeople movingaroundl

and I~- V

LMR. SCHNEIDER: Well, they wouldn'thave seeh

them move outside the building. No one's beengiven »

permission todo sucha thing--

GARY: Okay .

MR. SCHNEIDER: -nobody.

GARY: Well, I have toaccept your word on

that, and I really -- I hope nobodys doing that

without yourknowledge.

MR. SCHNEIDER: lndiscernible! thedogs --

there's dogsstill running around he says.

GARY: Um-hum.

MR.SCHNEIDER: But nobody from inside this

p

92

F

92

. 48

. »

building, nobody has permission and nobodyhas done

that. In fact indiscernible! now.

GARY: Well, good, because we're, youknow,

we'rekeeping our end of the bargain and, and,and

trying to makesurewe keep alid on, on anyactivity

that mightbe misinterpretedby eithersideasbeing --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Most definitely. V GARY: -- an actof aggression because we

justdon't want that.i

MR. SCHNEIDER:Believe -- I told youwhat1did, I mean that.'

GARY: Yeah. Did you get a chance to get

some, get some rest, Steve? y

MR. SCHNEIDER:I, I wasjust in fact layingl

myhead down- 1GARY: Um-hum. v

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- when ~-about five minutes}X92

ago and,you know, the phonewasringing off and on andi92

we, we were trying to get thatthing straight -- i92 |

GARY2Yé ah . 2

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- andso I finally got to 1

putmyheaddown forabout fiveminutes, yeah. 92GARY: No, that's nottoo much, but did you

and David have a chance to talk aboutsome of the

things we discussed?

MR. SCHNEIDER:A little bit butnot too much

=92 1

w

Q

92

0. ' _ 49

because he seemed -~

GARY: Yeah.

M. SCHNEIDER:- he seemed tobe a little

bit, you know, like tired and -- ~

GARY: Uh-huh.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and fading there, so -~

GARY: Yeah,yeah. Hashis, has his physicalcondition deteriorated any?

MR. SCHNEIDER:It doesn'tseem like it.

GARY: Um-hum.He soundedpretty robustwhenI talked to him before-- Y

MR. SCHNEIDER:Right, right.

GARY:which I'm, I'mkind ofamazed atyconsidering his wounds. I mean, that's--


GARY:--that'sremarkable. But I'd still'

liketo get backto whatwe weretalking aboutbeforegsee if we canget somemore kidsout. That was --I

just watcheda newsshow andthat's playingvery, veryipositively. l

MR. SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.

GARY: It'slooked onvery favorably. In

fact, I think they're,they're sayingthere's beeneight kidsreleased, butin anyevent thenews coverageismakingthat outto beavery positive sign.I thinkiit's verygood. Iwas hopingwe canwork ongetting

Q

,

,

92

.I x

g so

SONG more out.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah. Maybe could you

-- well, you know, I'll, I'lltell you the truth. Im,

I'm fighting indiscernible! sleep right now --

GARY:Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I'mfighting even, even --

, . .»you know,we havebeen so long without sleep it'slike

it's hardto even keep your mind focused on what's

going on.

GARY: Well, I, Ihear, Ihear some tiredness

in your voice and -

MR. SCHNEIDER:I mean, my, my throat is very

raw.

GARY: AndI, I know it's beenan emotionall

-- you know, gut-wrenching day and all that.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Exactly. I told you I'dlike

to even indiscernible! here just so Ican lean myheadback -- A

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- for just a little while, '

but -- .

GARY:Well, is David available to chat with?i

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, he's,he's likeme at 1the moment, you know --

GARY:Um-hum. 92

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- because we've stayedright

V

92

-

92-

92 ;

L51

with it for all this time and --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- we're just kind of hoping just maybean hour or two we can just lay our heads _ back hereand -- i

GARY: Sure. Well, I don't, Idon't think

there's anyproblem with that, but --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. .

GARY: -- I just wonder if maybe wecould

bring outa couplemore kidswhile youguys aretakingyour nap.I think that wouldbea real positive sigq,Steve.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Indiscernible! to think

about what,you know,what weneed todo. I need to I start getting over hereand waking--

GARY: Well, I know --

M. SCHNEIDER:-- waking them upand --

GARY: Yeah,I know -- well, I know you

indicated earlierfrom whatyou weresaying thatyou 5were reallyinterested inhaving somemore kidsout andI -- ' E


GARY: --you know,we're certainly--

MR. SCHNEIDER:And that'swhyI said, youknow --

GARY: Yeah.

52

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- we, we want all of them

out, every last one of them. We don'twant any kind of

GARY: Well, we want every, we want every --

of course, everyone isalways concernedabout children,

but we want everybody out --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, yeah, well, that'sthe

thing, you know - 1

GARY: -- don't wantto see anybody hurt. 1

Um-hum. -

MR. SCHNEIDER:You know,start with themaha

make sure that they havetheir chance and --

GARY: Sure.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- then all of us just to

work this thing out for sure. y

GARY: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we can -- I dont

know, we, we, we could, we could bring you all out if

you'd liketo come out together, that's,that's

somethingthatcould be donetoo. h

MR.scnnsrnsn:Well, that'swhy, you know,iwe needto -- you know,someof these people are so --F

you know,I meanafter all -- you know,we're just--GARY: Um-hum.

_ MR. SCHNEIDER: LikeJim, I thought it was,

you know,a good suggestion justto kind of, you know,

if a person canget their wits about them wecan sit

. :

down and start talking and --

GARY: Um-hum.

? S3

MR.SCHNEIDER: -- you know, there might be

some that want to do this or that or, you know, we

could give them theoffer again and whatever,and --

GARY: Well, why don'twe--

MR.SCHNEIDER: -- see if we can do

maybe a group or --

GARY: Yeah.

you know

v

V

it as -

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- or break it up in parts ifit makes it easier, you know.

GARY: Um-hum.

MR.SCHNEIDER:But right now to just talk toeverybody it's just -- it's kindof hardthat's whyIwe're hopingby the time themorning comes so

get on thephone with you guys again and --

GARY: Um-hum.

MR.SCHNEIDER: -- start talking tohere -- I

GARY: Um-hum.

MR.SCHNEIDER: -- and maybe wecan

out and how wecan go about doing it.

GARY: Yeah, yeah.

MR.SCHNEIDER: You might even have

suggestions orwe mightwork with you onthat

we can 1

0

everybody

work that

SQHIE

OI we

54

might havesome but,you know,we'll go-- IGARY: Yeah,I think we're, we'reopen to,

hear, hearsome ofyour ideastoo becauseI mean 92

ultimately whatever,whatever weagree toit has to be just that, it has to bean agreementbetween, betweenus all. And, youknow, Imean we're,we're open-mito, you know, facilitatingit just about anyway youwant aslong asit doesn'tendanger anybody,we just,

just don'tsee anyneed forthat. There'sbeen enoughblood shedtoday tolast a lifetime and it's justtragic --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Most definitely, most

definitely.

GARY: -- just tragic. So yeah,I'd,I'd

really like you to think aboutthat and we can--

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.

GARY: Youknow, again,we've, we'vegot Aplenty oftime totalk but I think I amconcerned mostpointedly about the children --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Right .

GARY: -- and I just think some ofthese

developments --we were-- it'sa shamethat I guessthe early-morninghours haveintervened herebut --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, tell me. ~

GARY: -- it was -- we, we wereon a --

MR. SCHNEIDER:I wishmyself that,you know,

. 92

I

92

H S5

it would have beena few hours before.

GARY: Yeah, but we --


GARY: --we wereon kindof I think a nice,a nice progression of,of havingthese kidscome out

and, andit was, you know,certainly -- n

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, Jim indiscernible! dndI was trying to hang in there myself. L

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:He saidhe wasgoing totryhto go-- andhe said-- in fact, hesaid hewas goingto go with me the whole way and-- '

GARY:Well,it's better to have afresh mind. . ,

if you can, but --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, well, I figured if he

knew whathe wasdoing, doingthe samething --GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and then hesuggestedit

for meandIsays, "Boy, Itell you guy -- Isays," -- I'mwith you on that -- "--

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- " -- and you'vegot our

trust andI really do trustyou guys,you've donewell for us." W

GARY: Yeah,Ihope youtrustme now too,Steve.

91l

1

*56

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I do, because, you

know --I

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER: ~- you're,you're telling me

the truth and, and so far it looks real good, I like;

that -

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and, you know,we cankeepon working.

GARY: Yeah,you know,itwas just such a i

nice progression, I mean, you know --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. .

GARY: -- you alwaysget asked by the bosseé

and soforth, "Howare we doing?" andwe say, "Well,you know --" -


GARY: -- "-- we're talkingto reasonable

people that are willing to, to meet us more than

halfway and resolve our differences -- "--

MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. ~

GARY: - "-- and, and they have

demonstrated thatby, you know, sendingsome kidsout

which,whichshows that theydon't wantto seeanyone

else hurt," and that'spositive andI'd liketo keepbuilding onthat.And it demonstratestime andagainto, to everybody involvedthat,you know, reasonable

L

r92.

92

Q O

5,57people can, can do reasonable things.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay, Jim, I guess --

GARY: No, Gary, I'mGary.

MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean --

GARY: Freudian slip, yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah. Okay. I guess I'm

just going to lay my headdown herefor just a littlelbit and --

GARY: Okay.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- maybe I can get my witshere together and --

GARY: Sure.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- I, I want to continue

talking with you of course -- X

GARY: Okay .

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- andstart getting the nexttwo -- you know, the names --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- the addressesandphonenumbers, all of that.

GARY:Sure, yeah, havethat stuff ready whenwe talk next --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.

GARY: -- and, and we'll --you know, we can

' 1 _, _

58

do itthe same waywe've done it before of if, if yqu'd

like --

MR. SCHNEIDER:When, when,when will Jim be

about himself do you think?

GARY: I, I, Idon'tknow, but, but I'llbe

hereinthe interim and,and, andwe -- 1

MR. SCHNEIDER:'All right.

GARY: -- can work this out.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay, but, you know, he would

like to talkto Jim indiscernible!.

GARY: Iknow, Iknow he would, Steve, but

I'll tell you itwould meanareal lot to me if he

could, if he could see it to --

MR. SCHNEIDER:No, I realize but, you known

if he's up, you know,we - he would appreciate it, you

know -- H

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: - he feels like he'sformedi

afriend with him and --

GARY: Oh, Iknow, but just, just as there's

many people in David'sflock there --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Iunderstand, yeah.

GARY: -- I know he wouldn't, he wouldn't

wantto limit his attention to just one person --


GARY: -- in his flock and --

Y

I

59

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well,can I get back with youthen? I'm, I'm ~-

GARY: Sure.

MR. SCHNEIDER:- boy, I'm havingin there

by athread here.

GARY: Yeah. Well,get some --


GARY: - get some rest and -

MR. SCHNEIDER: Thanks.

GARY: -- and youand Davidtalk about it and

be readywith the next twowhen, whenwecalland we'll>

MR. SCHNEIDER:We definitely will be.

GARY: - and we'llwork it out.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Definitely, Gary. »

GARY: Okay.

M. SCHNEIDER: Thank you, Gary.

GARY: I'mcounting onyou. IMR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.

GARY: Okay.

MR. SCHNEIDER:You won'tbe disappointed.EGARY: Okay.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Bye-bye.

GARY: Bye-bye. _

Gap!

MR. SCHNEIDER:lndiscernible! to me just '

I

92

0

~

I60

now?

GARY: No,it wasn'tme. I'mwondering if

it's theoutside pressor somethingtrying to get in?MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, must be. Wow.

GARY: No,Iwas going to let you call me .back like we agreed.

MR. SCHNEIDER:All right. Okay. Thanks.?

I'm goingto try to closemy eyesagain. Theykeephanding me the phonehere.

GARY: Yeah. Okay.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. Thankyou, Gary.

GARY: Indiscernible! from you, okay?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. Thanks,Gary.

GARY: Okay.


GARY: Bye-bye.

Gap! *MR. CUMINGS:Thisis Jim Cummingsfromthe

indiscernible! Administration.

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #5:Uh-huh.

MR. CUMMINGS:Indiscernible!

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #5:Who areyou flooking for?

MR. CUMINGS: Phil Lewis. .

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #5:Phil Lewis?IMR. CUMMINGS:Yeah, theATF agent.

0 i 92 61

Gap!

GARY: Hello.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello.

GARY: Yeah, Steve?


GARY: How you doing, buddy?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, very - I don'tknow.

GARY: Very, very, you don't know?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, youknow, we'regetting

reports they'rewatching themovement ofthese guysofcourse and itdoesn'tmake anybodyhappy.

GARY: Yeah, I know.

MR. SCHNEIDER:They seethem diggingindown

by the barn, clearly digging in, digging all night.It's --

GARY: Well --

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- getting closer to the

trucks and all that business.

GARY: Well, you -- I mean, if they are

digging thenyou knowthat that clearly meansthat

they're not,they're makingany attemptsto, to attaokyou oranything likethat. I mean,they've obviouslygot to maintain perimeter, you know that. 5

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, you know what the

agreement wasthat they'dstay off the property.

GARY: Isthat actually on yourproperty?f

'62

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yes, it is. .

GARY: Becauseit was my understanding that

they would not be on the property itself. '

MR.SCHNEIDER: Well, they are. That'swhat

they're lookingat. .

GARY: Okay.

MR.SCHNEIDER: They're onthe property.

GARY: All right. That'sgetting me mad

because I, I meanI've talkedto them several times

about indiscernible!.

MR.SCHNEIDER: Well, that'swhy Davidand I

were both totally awed by it -- I

' GARY:Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-you know, it'san

unsettling thing because weafter talking to you andJim and everything --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:~- was going fine and we

wanted to- youknow, hereit's cominglight andweire going to want -- I

GARY: Yeah.

MR.SCHNEIDER:-- like to start sendingthekids outsoit wouldn'tbe sucha problem. §

V

GARY: Sure, sure.Well, that, that won't?92

interfere withthat, and,and, youknow, Iwill, I will talk tothem immediatelyafter weget offthe -- f

63

MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! if you could

have themget out of there it would be great and wecan

go on with the negotiating.

GARY: Well, I think what, what I had heard

before is, again, I didn't realizethis was on your ,

property, but I heard -they were just concerned about

being exposed out there to sniper fire and so if -- 92

MR. SCHNEIDER:But it'sstill part of what

we told you guys. We let --you know, like -- I

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- earlier in the day we let

you come in and get the wounded and all the rest.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:We werefor you doing thatq

GARY: Um-hum, um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:And in fact, it amazed ushfow

long it actually took you, youknow, wetried to help

you asbest wecould evenin thatsituation. And, and

even with now here you've gotthese guys back here.

We'd reallyappreciate it so we can go on with

negotiating. -

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I mean, it, it would sure 5

make aperson comfortableif we'dstayed like what,

what we agreed to.

GARY: Yeah, yeah.

P

64

MR. SCHNEIDER:There's threeof them, or

whatever thereis out there indiscernible!. j92

GARY: Whereexactly do you seethese guys?

MR. SCHNEIDER:They're, they'rebeing viekedfromtheone side ofthe buildingdirectly overto the-- we call it the shop.

GARY: Canyou give mea --like acompass

heading onthat? .

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, I'mnot looking at 1

anything right now, but it'satthe north side.

GARY: Bethe northside ofthe building-§MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.

GARY: -- and there'sa little shed out

there?


GARY: And --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Not reallyalittle shed,from --it's theblock --acement-blockbuilding Ibelieve.

GARY: A cementblock building.

MR. scunmnsmRight. ,> GARY: And,and, andin thatarea you see 1

some guysdigging in? VMR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, theysee themclearly.

They've beenreporting right along. '

GARY: Yeah.

0

V

:65

MR. SCHNEIDER: And there's just too many.

They've beenwatching them. H

GARY: Okay. Well, let, let me --

I MR. SCHNEIDER: They'redigging holes so, you

know --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- whatever they're upto

it's definitely nogood. .

GARY: Okay. Well, again, you know, I'm ndt

trying tomake lightof that, but obviouslyit, youknow, should, should, should tell you that they'rendt

attempting to attack you.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, what it tells me

because I'm just talking -- what'shappening? Who's

moving up to the front of the building? A car?

GARY: Nobody's-- there'sa report of a

moving to the front of the building?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Cars? What do you mean

they're movingto the front of the building? Oh, he's

watching themon 2491.Okay. Butstill, you know, theother thing is clear though that those guys are back.there --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and that was not part o

the agreement. §

GARY:Yeah.

I

as

MR. SCHNEIDER:That's whatwe werereporting

all night long, thatthey didsee theseguys backthereand whatbothers meisyou guys say--then earlier youdidn't haveany informationon thatthat theyshouldn&#39be there. I -

GARY: Yeah. Well --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Can Ilet you work thatoutand I'llcall youback? V

GARY: Yeah,I'm goingto look into that,

but, butbefore we,we getback, youknow, inthis -3MR. SCHNEIDER:Let's pickup with that

negotiation, you know, start working onthat

indiscernible!.

GARY: Yeah,you told me when,when you

called meback youwere goingto giveme thenamesofthe kidsthat weregoing tocome outnext. y

MR. SCHNEIDER:What, whatare thenamesofthe nexttwo kidsthatwill be comingout whenwe getthisworked out? _

GARY: Yeah, do you have those? '

Tape 4A, blank!

Tape 5, side A!'

GARY: Goahead andhang up,I'll callyou;right back.


GARY: Um-hum.

1

f 92

rev

Gap! VDial tone!Phone dialing! Phone ringing!

GARY: It'snot ringing in there. ,

Phone ringing!

GARY: That ain't therightnumber.

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #6:Yeah, I dont

see whyhewouldn'tanswer. Do you want to ask him?

GARY: Heindiscernible! changedhisnumbei, I

he'snot going to know what it is.

Phone ringing!

GARY: I'mgoing to try indiscernible!.

Phone ringing!Dialtone! Phoneringing!MR. SCHNEIDER:Hello, Gary? l

GARY: Yes.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. Iguess you'vebeen Y

trying to get a hold of us?

GARY: Yes, it didn'tright after we --

MR. SCHNEIDER:What, whatnumber haveyou lbeen ringing?

GARY: What is this? 863-5663.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Try 5252.

GARY: 863-- I

MR. SCHNEIDER:5252. ,

GARY: --S252. That's thenumberright wheneyou arenow?

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes.

/

92

,

}

'68

GARY: Andthat's thesame instrumentwe've

been talking on?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Apparently so. ;

GARY: Okay.I - maybe that's,that's theproblem. _.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I think that has been.

GARY: Yeah,but as far as you knowyour,

your phoneinstrument thereis functioningproperly?MR. SCHNEIDER:Right.

GARY: Youdon't haveany muteswitches onoranything like that?

MR. SCHNEIDER: No.

GARY: Okay.When wetalked I, I sat down .and I talked with the ATFcommanders. I'mnot with I

ATP, right,and Italked withthem. I said, listen,I'm, I'mtalking to Steve andI said we're, we're

getting a,a credibilityproblem here,he's seeingsomepeople outthere. Theyassure methere isnobodythere. Theysaid thereis nobodyinthat house,

there's nobodydigging any-- thebuilding andthere'snobody digging --

MR. SCHNEIDER:All theseguys thoughGary, ;they've alltold methe samething. Whatam Igo --

GARY: No,and, andI'm concernedbecause I,I don'twant tolose mygood faithwithyou. -

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, youknow thetruth is,

69

you know,also, they've-- they observed -- here's an

Army tankover herenow, armoredcarrier vehicle ofsome sort.

GARY: Yeah, yeah. '

MR. SCHNEIDER:There's this,there's that.I mean,what is this going to be World WarIII or what?

GARY:Well,there's a lot of people out here

as you well know and, and, and you'veseen the news andyou know --

MR. SCHNEIDER:I would -- to tellyou the

truth, I was quitesurprised. If anything, Iithought

GARY: Yeah .

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- it would becomeless, not

more, and, and you know -- 1

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- the good faith, I mean--

GARY: Don't,don't misinterpretwhatithatstuff means.The, theway thefederal government

iresponds tothese things-- E

' MR. SCHNEIDER: Well,I do remember reading

aboutthatWeaver story anda numberof otherstpriesI

GARY: Yeah, yeah --

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- in the past --

GARY: That'sright.

Q I

70

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- in the past and, you know,it definitely unsettles aperson. Q A

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I knowalot of the people

involved are just peopledoing their job anddon'tunderstand and --

GARY: But, but you have to know --

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- then you wonderfrom

what's goingon at the top.

GARY: --in the, in the Weaver casefrom the

moment negotiationsstarted therewasn'tasingle shotfired andthere wasn'ta singleperson hurtafter that

point in time. All the, thedamage donein that caseis exactly like whathappened hereyesterday; it's

when, whenthe violencebroke outin the beginming butonce westarted talking up there it, it worked butin

the bestway thatit could which wasno further»lossof

life. _

MR. SCHNEIDER:So, whatagency areyqu with,Gary? ;

GARY: I'mwith the FBI.

MR. SCHNEIDER: You are?

GARY:Um-hum.y

MR. SCHNEIDER:What? Out of Dallas org --

GARY: No,I'm outof Washington,D.C..

MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, you, you are?

f u

71

GARY: Yeah,I'm fromthe FBI Academy.MR. SCHNEIDER:I see. H

GARY: Yeah. So, I flew out here and I'm,

I'm alittle bit behind interms ofeverything that's

occurred butmaybe, maybethat's anadvantage forme

because Ican getto, to hear fromyou andDavid and,and comeout witha freshapproach and,and that'swhatI want to try to do, Steve. ~


GARY: And, and like now I --

Gap!

GARY: Areyou still there? Are youstill

there, Steve? Hello? Hello? '

Dial tone! Phone dialing!Phone ringing!Unidentified malevoices inbackground.!Phone ringing!

GARY: Hello?

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #7:Hello.

GARY: Yeah, Steve?

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #7: No.

GARY: Yes, David.

WAYNE: It'sWayne.

GARY: Wayne?

WAYNE: Yes,sir. _

GARY: Go ahead.

WAYNE: Welost our telephone.

r.

92

GARY:

OD.

WAYNE

GARY:

on now?

WAYNE

GARY:

WAYNE

GARY:

Wayne?

WAYNE

GARY:

now?

WAYNE

GARY:

this phone line

David?

WAYNE

up.

Y 72

Yeah, the,the onewe've beentalking

Yeah.

Okay. Whichnumber areyou callingme

863--

Yeah.

~-5979.

S979. Okay,

Yes, it is

Okay, Wayne

Yes, I can

and you say thisiisA

92 92

Can you hear mefokay

92

Okay. I'mgoing tocontinue tousethen for me to talk with Steve and

Until weget theother onepatphed

GARY: Okay.Do youhave anyidea what'swrong with the other one?

WAYNE: No, sir, I don't.

GARY: Yeah,it gap!it, it almost appeared> likea loosewire orsomething becausewhen Iwas,

talking toStevelasttime it all ofa suddenstartedto, to, to breakup andthen itwent outlikethene's

.73

some kind of, some kind of instrument problem. And we

have enoughother problems today, we don't needbad

telephones. Well, can I talk to Steve again, Wayne?

WAYNE: Let metry and get him.

GARY: Okay, thank you.

WAYNE: I'llkeep the line open.

GARY: Sure, I won'thang up.

WAYNE: Okay.

Pause!

Unidentified voices in background.!

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #8:The AEFwants

himon the phone down here.

Unidentified voices in background.! l

Electronic noises!

WAYNE: Indiscernible! 92

GARY: Hello?

WAYNE: Steve'sgoing to call you.

GARY: Hello?

WAYNE: Hello? Can you hear me? 1

GARY: Yes, this is Gary. Who is this?

WAYNE:This isWayne. 1

GARY: Oh, hi, Wayne. Did, did -- werd you

able to locate Steve? ,

WAYNE: Steve, Steve has just fixed his§

telephone and gap! --

GARY: Oh.

1 v 92

74

WAYNE: -- give you a call.

GARY: Okay. So you want me to hang up on

this line and he'llcall meup onthe other one?

WAYNE: Yes, please.

GARY: Okay. Thanks a lot. If, if he'snot

able to get throughto mebecause he'sstill having92

difficulty, would, would youhave himcall me§backon,on the line that you're onright now? i

WAYNE: Sure thing. Can you --

GARY: What's that?

WAYNE: -ask Byrontogive me acall?

GARY: Yeah,I'll dothat. Okay. But let's,

let's waituntil I make sureI'm --as soonas I hear

Steve on the other line then I'll, I'llget word to --

WAYNE: Okay.

GARY: - Byrontogive you acall, okay?

But I don't wantto tie youup with Byron if I needto

talk to Steve through,through thisconduit, okay?

WAYNE: Okay, go ahead.

GARY: All right, good enough. I'mgoingto

disengage thenso I can waitfor Steveto call me,

okay?

WAYNE: Yes, sir.

GARY: All right, bye-bye.

Phone ring!

GARY: Hello?

92y

75

MR.SCHNEIDER: Hello, Gary?

GARY: Yes, Steve?

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes. -

GARY: I understand from Wayne that you found

some problems with your phone?

MR.SCHNEIDER: Oh, I was talking with you

and of a sudden bang --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- it just went -- n¢ -- it'S

done that all through the night.

GARY: Well, I was scared for a minute that

you'dthinkit was, was me hanging up on you. '

MR.SCHNEIDER: Oh, no, no, I knew it wasn't

that. I indiscernible!.

GARY: Did you replace it with another

instrument or --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, exactly.

GARY: Okay,that should resolve the problem.

MR.SCHNEIDER: I'm hoping.

GARY: You must have had a loose wire or

something like that.- "

MR.SCHNEIDER: I, I think that'swhat it is.

I think it's we'rehaving a wire problem more than

anything. I

GARY: Yeah, yeah. V

M. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I'vegot two children

92

76

here. '

GARY: Gap!looking out the window I see

that we've,we've goneinto what'skind ofa grayday,butit's daylight inany event --


GARY: -- and I'mhoping wecan seeif we can

get Chrissieand Brian. V

MR.SCHNEIDER: David wouldlike - isJim

around? He'dlike to at leasttalk to him.

GARY: Well,as soonas hegets here»Illputhim on,but he'snot herenow andI, I don't kmowwhathis ETA is--

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well --

GARY: -- but I'dreally like to talktoDave.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, that's,that's fine,but,you know, hewould like to talkto

indiscernible!.

GARY: I, I know that and I, I-- 1

MR. SCHNEIDER:Can youtellme anythingabout --can youget someinformation fromsome otheguyswhen he might be returning or -- i

GARY: Yeah,when,when -- yeah, afterwe'vefinished talkingI'llsee, see ifI canfind outwhat

> 92- ~

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.

1

77

GARY: -- what his ETA back here is.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Gary would like to talk with

you. Do you want to talk with him? He wantsto know

what you want to talk about.

GARY: Well, I'd, I'dlike to talk about a

lot of things. I mean, it's just thewholeprocessofnegotiations tosee if wecan talk and resolva our

differences and, you know, I --

MR. SCHNEIDER:He wantsto talk about alot

of things about resolvingdifferences, whateverelse.

David issaying againJim said just talk with mim,<

that's whathe said.

GARY: You know, Steve --

MR. SCHNEIDER: I - look --

GARY: I know. i

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- Gary, I'm ina position

here, that'swhathewas told, you know, I -- V

GARY: Iknow, butI'm, I'malso dependingonyou to --

MR. SCHNEIDER:I realizethat.éGARY: -- to be reasonable andwhat Jim}--

MR. SCHNEIDER: I realize that."

GARY: -- wastalking about when we had --

again, I'mvery clear on this,when -- Y I

MR. SCHNEIDER:Can you-- is thereany maycan youat leastcall himor-- g

rt92

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GARY: Yeah,I will but I just wantto getone, onething straightbecause Ithink therewas

literal, literal misinterpretation. whenJim saidtalkto me,what--Jim never intendedfor youto3talk onlyto him. What hewas talking

that was going on with Wayne

two separate things going at

confusing. You know, if you

me to do this, this, this is

help you and Imean Ithink i

about was the otherline

and wedidn't wantto have

one point in timeand

trusted Jim, Jim trusted

my job to do this92and to

t's, it'sunfortunate that

everythingthat's gone onthat we haveto sit and, and,and wait on one person.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I know,seeIhave gome92

through thisconversation onnumerous times.

GARY: Yeah.If David --I mean, like3David,

David hastrust in, in thepeople aroundhim and!youknow, I think he had trust in Jim and Jimhas

transferred thatto meand it'sgoingto be hard orme

MR. SCHNEIDER:He wastelling methat Jimhad trust in him and --

GARY: Yeah, well, Ihave trust --

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- indiscernible! him. L

GARY: --I havetrust in David,-too, and}

you know,David didn't,David didn'thavetrust untilhe talked to Jim.

79

MR. SCHNEIDER:And Jim told ~- here's his

exact - he says, "Nobody else," is what he said.

GARY: Well, you know, it, it could be hours

before weeven locateJim and,and doyou think gap!.MR. SCHNEIDER:He said it could be hours

before theylocate him. Oh,Iknowyou guysknow wherehe isfor sure,positively right off, I meanespeciallyafterindiscernible!.

GARY: If he waslikeeverybody else herehe

probably went and grabbeda hotel room in town

somewhere, there's just --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Right, I know, butdefinitely

GARY: - there's, there'shundreds andhundreds --

MR. SCHNEIDER:I know youguys wouldknow

where he'sat after indiscernible!.

GARY: Well,I, Idon'tknowwherehe'sat.

MR. SCHNEIDER: They wouldthere.92

GARY: Well,maybe theywould, butagainy youknow, wedon't wantto focusthisall on oneperson.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Just one moment.

GARY: Yeah . 1

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, theywere just letting

us knowaboutwhat you guysgot all out therein thefield and, you know 1

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80

GARY: Well, it's allon the news, there'sno

secret about all that stuff.

MR. SCHNEIDER:No, I know, I know, they just

-- you know, they're just reporting back asalways.

GARY: Yeah,yeah. Well,you know fromthe

notoriety this has received that there's--I mean

there's justa cast of thousandsout here. Tmeres all

sortsof equipment andpersonnel, it'sa major, it's a

major newsevent and it's out job to --

MR. SCHNEIDER:In that cast of thousands are

there any angels out there?

GARY: Well, I haven'tseen any in the room

where I'msitting, but I'd liketo think there's some

angels over,over everybodyout therein thatcompound.MR. SCHNEIDER:Right, right. k GARY: Andin fact, there's twolittleiangels

I'd liketo see come on out. *

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, that'swhat we,that'swhat we were talking when I -- i

GARY: Yeah. §

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- called you back here.

GARY: I mean, I'dreally -- I think it would

be-- it would help get gap! startedthis morningl I

mean, I thinka lot of good progress was made

yesterday.

M.SCHNEIDER: He sayshe wants to save his

81

strength for Jim.

GARY: Okay. Well, Steve -~

MR. SCHNEIDER:Just a moment, just a moment.

GARY: Umhum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:He, he said again Jim saidonly with him so --

GARY: No,that's,that'snot what, what Jim

meant and I think you know that, Steve. Jim +

MR. SCHNEIDER: See --

GARY: -- we, we don't workthat way. We

never say -- we never make it all -- '

MR. SCHNEIDER:I didn't-- he wasthe onethat talked to him.

GARY :I know .

MR. SCHNEIDER:I've, I'venever seenhim

like this.If that's whathe heardand said and*thats

what the conversation was about --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- it worked so well.

GARY: Well, I know, and, and haven't,

haven't youand I had sucha good discussion and 5

haven't weworked well together? _

M. SCHNEIDER:There's, there'ssomethinghe's gotto say that I don'thave the ability to do.

The, thereason I'mhere isbecause ofwhatthe manysbeen ableto showwith theBible, the statements he?s

82

been able to produce.

GARY: Are you talking about Jim now?

MR. SCHNEIDER:No, I'mtalking about Davidhere.

GARY: Yeah. Well, you know --

MR. SCHNEIDER: So --

GARY: - David -- before yesterday»David

never knew Jim and never talked to Jim and --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Surely.

GARY: -- yet after he talked to him he found

that he wasareasonable and worthyperson.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, becauseof -- condition

and everythingI'd liketo honor -- yGARY: Well, right.'

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- what he's choosingéhere.

GARY: Well, I'd, I'd,I'd likeyou to have

him -- give him-- have, have anopportunity totalk tome as well. I think --

MR. scrmmnzn:Well, let mecallyou iback

and try to locate him at least. Maybewe canbuhz himon the phone or something --

GARY: Okay.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- or at least you can tellme something about it. ~ I

GARY: Yeah. I think --

MR. SCHNEIDER:I'llcallyou rightback and,

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and -- ' ~

GARY: Yeah, please do because -- at the time

being I'mnot surethat I have, havethe ability to

even call in to you soI'm, I'm-- until we canrectifythat --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, call -- rememerthe5252.

GARY: Yeah,I got that down. I hope -- hesaid -- 863-S979, was that --

MR. SCHNEIDER:That, that'sWayne.

" GARY: Well, that'sthe number he gameme.Which --

MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm --

GARY: This is --

MR. SCHNEIDER: -5252.

GARY: Okay. You're gap!.

M. SCHNEIDER:Wayne gaveyou the -- whichnumber did Wayne give you?

GARY: I,I wasreading thewrong number,

you're right. :


GARY: 863-5252.

MR. scrmsznsm Right.

GARY: Okay,I understand. ~ 1

MR. scxmmnsmOkay. Call me back,and if Idon't hearfrom you indiscernible!.

L.

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GARY: Okay,but I'd just like to leave --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Indiscernible! minutes?

GARY: Yeah.


GARY: I'd,I'd justlike to leave with one

last thought.I really, really amdepending onyou to,to help me to help David and -

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. Dothis for me andthen let'sget back on the phone.

GARY:Okay.

mi. SCHNEIDER:Thank you.

GARY:Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Good-bye.

GARY: Byebye.

Pause! i

MR. SCHNEIDER:Just like you said baok to

the wireso hegot tiredof it, pulledit allomt andstarted over and --

GARY:Umhum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:--he said it looks prettysolid now.

GARY: Okay.Well, I can hearyou pretygood. h

_ MR. SCHNEIDER: Good,good.

GARY: Yeah,can you hear meokay? 1

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, I can hearyou okay.

5 2sI

' as

GARY: Youknow, I was just -took me a

while to get to the phone,Iwas just getting up to, togo to the bathroom.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, you were? Okay;

GARY: Yeah,but that'sall right. 1I'm withyou now.

M. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Were you able to

contact Jim or find our where he was?

GARY: What,what - I, I went andtalked to

the, thebosses atthe ATFhere andI said, listen,these, thesefolkswouldliketo talk to Jim andtheysaid Jimis backat a motel somewheregetting somerest

and theysaid they,they just weren'tgoing to wakehim

up now,that he'dworked allnight long and theyexpect

him tobe herelaterin the dayand wanthim tobe>

fresh andbe ableto, to help youout and,and they're

not going to wakehim up. AndIhope that, that wecan

work togetherandI'mhere to talk to you. Huh?'

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah,I was justtalking withsomeone Gary.

GARY: Yeah. Ithink that's reasonableif

you,if you look at it. 1

MR. SCHNEIDER: David?

Pause! ' '

Unidentified malevoice in background.!=

MR. SCHNEIDER:He's, he'stold methat Jim

8 6

made him give him his word. '

GARY: Well, we've been,we've beenthroughthat, Steve, but --

MR. SCHNEIDER:He saidthat Jim made himgive him hisword.

GARY: Well,I, I hear whatyou're saying.

but I mean, youknow, that's,that'swhatthe bosses

have decided.Now, wecan, wecan keeptalking likethis all day longand it'snot goingto changethe

situation. Youknow, Jimwill beherelater today andwe canget him back in touch with you andthat, that

shouldn't bea problem.But I don't thinkwe should

waste thisprecious timeand,and not proceedwith, you!

know,the mutually beneficialthings thatI hopewe canaccomplish, andI thinkthat makes senseto you! Steve.

We've, we'vetalked enoughnow throughthe night» Ithink youknow whatI'm sayingis, is true and honestand I, I just don't wantthis opportunityto passwherewe canget -- 1

MR. SCHNEIDER:Tell Jimto give us a call assoon ashe getsthere then. E

GARY: Well,that could, that couldbe prettymuch laterin theday. §

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, he-- that'swhat he just said. l

GARY: Well, I, I think that'san

87

unreasonable position, don't you?

MR. SCHNEIDER: N0, I don't.

GARY: Well, could I talk to David about it?

MR. SCHNEIDER:He said Jim mademe give my

word. He says, I can't goback on it, Ican'tbreak

it. 92

GARY: No,Jim, Jim, Jim didn'tsaygive your

word thatyou won'ttalk to anybody else.What Jimwastrying to say--

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I, I --

GARY:-- and he did say very --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Were you there? Were you

there when he was talking?

GARY: Yes,I was, I was,and what Jim said

is he didn't --he hadwantedto talk on one line, not

both lines, he didn'tsay you have mysolemn wordyou

can only talk to me and nobody else, that didn'ttake

place and you know that.

MR. SCHNEIDER:No, I did hear him. vkpu know

that he told menumerous times,Gary, heactually did,

that he saidthat he wouldstay with usright through

the night. t

GARY: Well, he, he -- and he did,he stayed

until2 o'clock inthe morning,but, you know --;i

M. SCHNEIDER: Well, so didwe, you know.

GARY: Oh, I, I know you did,but, butj

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again, youknow, you're,you're insidethere;and, andyou were able hopefully to get some rest.

MR. SCHNEIDER: lndiscernible!

Pause!

MR. SCHNEIDER:Jim madeapromise?not to do

anything withouthim. Hesaid he'sgoing tokeep that.GARY:What,what would happenif Jim was in

acar wreck andhe waskilled, that means wecouldn't

solve this problem, wecouldn't talk? I

MR. SCHNEIDER:No, buthe's not,you know,and indiscernible!.

GARY: Well, I know that, but, but I mean

stop tothink aboutthe logicof thewhole thing,Steve.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I am. A

GARY: Youknow, doyou think Jim, Jm --

MR. SCHNEIDER:I am indiscernible!.

GARY: -- would --

relationship he did with you

say, well, you know, I can't

over to any schmuck here and

MR. SCHNEIDER: NO,

matter is though he wantsto

indiscernible! --

GARY: Well --

MR. SCHNEIDER: --

Jim would develop the

and just walk awayéandE

be herebut I'll turnthis

hopefully hedoes dkay?

the, the truth ofither

follow through

hebeganwith the person

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that stated indiscernible! he stated --

GARY: Well --

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- he gave him hisiword and

he wants to follow through on that. '

GARY: Um-hum,um-hum. Well,you khow,if I

call Jim up at the hotel and Jimsays -- he givesme

permission totalk to David, that'llsuffice thenI, Ipresume?

MR. SCHNEIDER:No, tellhim exactly whatwe're saying, that --

GARY: But --

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- David wants tocommunicate

with himbecause hegave himhis wordon thatand --GARY: Steve,that's notgoing tohappen, and

i

I meanI hopelateron we canbring Jimdown herebut,you know,I, I think, I thinkwe'reletting an-opportunity --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Why don'tyou call him andtalk to him?

GARY: Well,I don'thavehis number orI --I can find it later on, but that'snot the issue. Theboss ofthe ATPhas, hasmadea -- made hisdecisionhereand hesays he's notgoing tobe pullingJim down.Jim's notthe only one you'regoing to -- '

MR. SCHNEIDER:Gary, you'retalking aboutall these liesand so forth on both sides --

90

GARY: Yeah .

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and you're talkinglikethat. "

GARY: Andthat's whywe, that'swhy weshould get down to business.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I think you're unreasonable,Gary.

GARY: What'sunreasonable with that

position, Steve?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Because ofwhat the man

stated, andDavid gavehis word.He, hehimself saiddon't dealwith anyonebut myself,hesays I'll workwith you right on through --

GARY: It's, it's because --

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and then he said -F at the

very endhe says, well, youknow, I'mgetting tiredandso are you, why don't youbreak until tomorrow, we'll

pick this up when-- in themorning sometime.

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:So of coursethemorning'scome and -- -

GARY: Well,you know,this is veryfrustrating, Steve.

MR. SCHNEIDER:He, hewent tobed at what,2:00? Well, here it is --

GARY: No,he,he left here at 2 o'clockand

92

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-~ 2:30.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well,you know, I, you know,

I continued to talkwith you, I didn't goto bed or

anything.

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I, I sat here. .

GARY: Neitherdid 1, I stayed upallnighttoo..

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, wereyou up through theday?

GARY: Yes,I was. I haven'tslept for about

32 hours. V

MR. SCHNEIDER:Wellthen you're inthe sameballpark -

GARY: Yeah,I'm, I'mvery tired, bud, you1know, I think we'veletsomething artificial here

reallydestroy agreat opportunity for us to, to make

some progressand I'mvery disappointedin that,And

I'm hereto talk to you,I'm hereto helpyou, I'mhereto, to -- I

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well,that -- g

GARY: - enable us to resolve this situation.

MR. SCHNEIDER:You heardwhat I justisaidthough --I

GARY: I heard.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- the whole thing.p

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GARY: I know, and, and I can't doanything

about that. The, the boss of the ATFhas said he's nOt

going to wake upJim and,and he'sgoing to let him

have his rest and that's hisfinal decision --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, well --

GARY: -- but -- '

MR. SCHNEIDER:-» I guess we'll talkto youlater then.

GARY: Okay.Well, I'llbe here for you, you

know. Imean, we needto talk andI think you knowthat and I think David does.

M. SCHNEIDER: Okay.

GARY: Steve?

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes?

GARY: There's-- don'tyou agree with whatI'm saying?

MR. SCHNEIDER:No, becauseI've gotto agreewith him because I,Iheard fromadistance the

conversation. Iheard him talking with

indiscernible!. I

GARY: Oh,I, Iheard it here, but youlre,

you're misinterpretingthe wholething. y

MR. SCHNEIDER:I've gotto go by what he

heard andwhat heunderstood clearlyfrom theman.GARY: Well, I--

MR. SCHNEIDER:I've gotto goby theman --

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GARY: - I know, and I'mgoing -- I'm --

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- gave him his word and he

says theyhad a, they hada deal and theyboth had --

they hadan agreementand hewants toabide bythat andfollow itright on through just it was from thebeginning.

GARY: Yeah,yeah. Well, I'm sorry--


GARY: - indiscernible! I mean wewere

ready to, we wereready toget Chrissieand Brianout

and Ithink it's-- they'rethe onesthat aregoing tobe the victims of thisnow. It's unfortunate.}We're

ready. It'sa fresh, new day.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Why wouldbe the, the,victims

of what, Gary? "

GARY: Well, because you want to get them

out. You'veasked us to help you get them out.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, what,whatare youtalking about? They'd bethe victims of what?

GARY: Well,they're theone whoare npt

going to get the opportunity to come outis what I

meant. 1

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, they will have the

opportunity to come out.

GARY: Yeah.Well --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Positively.

1 94

GARY: -- as soonasyou wantto do that I'll

be hereto, to help youwork it through, youknow,really, Steve --

2"». v___

MR. SCHNEIDER:He says we're goingtosending them all out as

a Buzz.

soon as you get Jim do give us

GARY: Well,I don'tknow whenthatfs goingto be. We're readyto do this in the way--

MR. SCHNEIDER:He's readyto do it justlikewe agreed and that's --

to --

GARY: Okay.

understand, okay --

MR. SCHNEIDER

calling usall the time

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER

we're --and we'vetold

GARY: Um-hum

MR. SCHNEIDER

if, if you'd likeyou want me

I want to make sure I

You know, there's press

-- and they ask us about how

them honesty --

-- right along you guys have

bent over,you've doneextremely wellwith us--GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER

we've workedwith you.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:

-- you'veworked withus,

And, you know, he understood

it that way; I can't,I

»GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:

95

can't --

-- take thatfrom him, you

know, Gary, between you and I, I can't.

. GARY: Iknow,

MR. SCHNEIDER:

deal, I didn't.

GARY: But you know, the way, the

works with us, the system doesn'tdepend on

it just doesn't workthatway, and I, and I

understand that

MR. SCHNEIDER:

this which is so crucial

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:

I -_

He's theone that worked the

way it

one person,

thhnkyou

Well, in asituation like

to so many lives and --

-- and so much is atstake --

GARY: Do, do you think I'm going to do

something --

MR. SCHNEIDER:

GARY: -- that

the children?

MR. SCHNEIDER:

put words into my mouth,

GARY: NO, no,

MR. SCHNEIDER:

GARY: I know,

to conclude if you --

-- indiscernible!.

would jeopardize your life or

Did I say that, Gary? ;Dont

I know I didn't -- Y

I'm not.

-- say that. y

but that's-- what,whaq am I

I MR. SCHNEIDER:

have to, that --

GARY: -- feel

MR. SCHNEIDER:

96

You can conclude what you

like that I --

-- I told you exacthy -- you,

you understand what I said and --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:

from that. GARY:

MR. SCHNEIDER:

GARY: --

MR. SCHNEIDER:

between two men. Why --

word gap!.

-- you know, I, I can'tsway

Well,what, what --

The agreement was made --

I'm hearingyou say --

-- the agreement was made

he doesn'twantto break his

GARY: Well,Jim, Jim --

MR. SCHNEIDER:

been definitely going on

GARY: I know,

that Jim made Jim didn't

Got a trust thing nowit's

but all, allthe agreements

make. They have to be made

and approvedby theauthorities,that's the wayit works here.

MR. SCHNEIDER: And he said thathe had that,he let us know that he had that.

GARY: Yeah,that's right.He has that and I

have it. I have the authority to makethose decisionstOO.

M.SCHNEIDER: In fact, we -- you know,

97

right - we'd beenworking withhim forquite a longtime andhe hadbeen atthat time working withall the

different agenciesand weheard himtalking with them

and workingwith themand everythinghas been,youknow, going very well.

GARY: Yeah. Well, I, I think you understood

the pointI'm making,that, youknow,whenJim;talkedto Davidand, andJim wouldthen goto the ATF*leaders

and, and,you know,I'm, I'mherehelping themgat theirrequest. Andtheymade adecision. They wouldsay

yes, Dave-they would sayyes, Jim, you, youtan do

that. So it was their authorityuponwhich Jim made

those decisions.Now they'vegivenmethat authoritynow and,and I'm,I'm, I'm,I'm confidentthat wecanwork thisout together. y

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, I'mconfidentthatindiscernible! --

GARY: Yeah,we -you andI've hadsome niceconversations.

»

MR. SCHNEIDER:--go along asthe agreementwas madethere willbe noproblems andeverythinggwillwork out just fine, I really believethat.I, Ibelieve you do -- '

GARY: Well -- 92

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and I, and I hope so onour side. A

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GARY: Yeah,yeah, thenI don'tkndwwhy wecan't proceed.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, wecan proceedas soonas he- justgive himalittle more restand we'llgetright atit. It'llgive mea chancemyself, youknow,I've onlyhad --why don'tyou laydown yoursalffor anhour or two indiscernible! ~

GARY: Well, let me ask -~

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- giveme anopportunity tobe a little more fresh --

GARY: Yeah.

M. SCHNEIDER:-- andto talk and soforth.

GARY: Let,let meask yousomething, Steve,if I may --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Sure.

GARY: --since, sincewe've, we'vegqtalittle time here to talk.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, youknow, I'vegotaterrible splittingheadache tobe honestwith you.

GARY: Well,I know,but -you saidyouwanted Jimto comehere. Now,you saidyou were;goingto letall thekids goif Jimcame? Isthat,is thatwhat you indicated?

MR. SCHNEIDER:We saidright fromthe verybeginning -- ;

GARY: Yeah.

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MR. SCHNEIDER: ~~ that'swhat was worked

out, that by twoby-two they're goingto come right on

out indiscernible!.

GARY: How, how many kids do we have in

there?

MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, we - I donft

believe we came up with a number.

GARY: Yeah. You, you don't knowhow many

kids are in there?

MR. SCHNEIDER: I don'tright off.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Like he said, there's.quite a

few.

GARY: Like what kind of ball park figure? I

have no idea.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I, Idon'teven know right

off, Ireally don't.

GARY: I mean, is it a hundred? -

MR. SCHNEIDER:No, there'snot that many.

GARY: Yeah. I mean, Ihave no idea, yeah.

I mean --

MR. SCHNEIDER:But he will -- you know,

he'll giveyou that figure, he'll-- we'llgo gea

head counthere sometimein between and, and make§sure

we have all that. I need to still get the names bf

some of these people. They've notall been around in

I

100

the sameplace andinstead -- you know,I meanwhen I

got off the phone I was actually attempting to lay down

to try to recover a little energy --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- here, butI mean the

phone --

GARY: Well, how --

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- you know, the thingkept

on ringing and then no one'son it, butthey probably

were on it butI don't --who knowswhat wasgoing on

indiscernible!. .

GARY: Yeah, apparently your, your phohe

there was having some problems. R

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, I mean, the, thething

never stopped ringing, you know, and didn'twantto

actually take it off the hook because, you know,iit, it

seemed like it worked once or twice --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- you know, it was strange.

GARY: Well,we got it going now apparently,

yeah. Well, youknow,maybe if, if, if you got aé

headache andyouwantto lay downfor a while mayhe I

couldtalk to David. Maybeif I talked to David or a while he -- '

MR. SCHNEIDER:He's layingdown rightnbw,you know, after all this timehe has -- 5

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GARY: Yeah. j

MR. SCHNEIDER:I'd liketo tell you the

truth, man, I'd justlike to lay my head back here a

littlebit and --

GARY: Okay.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Can you - I mean, if he --

how long do you think he'sgoing to sleep?

GARY: I, Idon'tknow. Imean ~-

MR. SCHNEIDER: If he, if he went to bed

about 2 o'clock orthereabouts, you know, itcan'tbe I

too far awayfrom,you know,thattime, you know,eight

hours later, or even six, seven hours, huh?

GARY: You know, he -- the last timeI saw

him was2:00, 2:30 whenever it was heleft here and I

don't knowif he wentto briefings after heleft here

or what timehewent to bed, I, I don't know.But this

wholeissuedoesn'trevolve aroundJim,that'swhat I'm

trying to tell you.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I'll, I'lltell you what, you

know, I'mso -- the truth is I'mjust,you know, can

you tell I'm tiredand justso worn? I

indiscernible!.

GARY: Well, I'm,I'mtired too and I'll,and

I'll tellyou whatmore thanthat, Steve, I'm just

really disappointed that we've,we've cometo a, a roadblock on this issue.

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MR. SCHNEIDER:Indiscernible! look it,

everything -give it a little time, you know, don'trush it and push it indiscernible!.

GARY:Well,I'll, I'llbe here and it's,it's - it'llbe that --

MR. SCHNEIDER:You know,we've shownto youi

already, we'venot doneanything,you,you can keep" your eyeon us,we'll the doing thesame, youknow,let's havea little trust.

GARY: Well, well, we do.

MR. SCHNEIDER:We're goingto get this --

we're goingto actuallyget this thing workedout.Imean, we,wemean that. We'regoing toworkit righton through. j

GARY: AndI thinkyou'veseen that on ourside.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I do, so you know--

GARY: Everythingwe've toldyou is true,wehaven't,wehaven'tdone anythingto, to, to -- i

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.So let's, let'skeepthe relationgoing, youknow,but if you,if youcould

just giveme a-- boy,I'd loveto just, youknow,layback maybefor anhouror two. If, if youguys -- ifyoulaid down yourselffor just twohoursorsomething. .

GARY: Um-hum,okay.

103

1 MR. SCHNEIDER:You sound tired, I mean, I'll

2 tell you, if you can'ttell I am,you know, my; my

3 mouthis dry, I'm-- my throat is hoarse --

4GARY: Um-hum.

5. M. SCHNEIDER: -- I got.a terrible headache.

6 It's,it's justso hard to communicate, it is --

7 GARY: Um-hum.

8 1 M. SCHNEIDER:-- it'svery hard. You know,

9 I meanI'm,I'mreally having a real hard time,I am, I

10 can'temphasize that enough.

11 GARY: Yeah, yeah. You dosound tired.

12 MR. SCHNEIDER:Iam, I'm wornout.

13 GARY: And yousoundlike you'vebeenthrough14 a lot of stress and Iknow it's adifficultsituation

15 .inthere for everybody. MR. SCHNEIDER:

16 Well,can you giveme - maybeinthe mean timewhy

17 don'tyou -- Gary, I'd,I'd reallyeven like to have

18 you get some rest yourself.

19 GARY: Um-hum.Well, I'll,I'll be here when20 you guys --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Indiscernible! don'tyou

~ havea cot or a bedor something youcould just kindof

23 lay down there nearby or --

24é GARY: Well, no, Iappreciate your concern

»25 and,you know,I'll,I'll,I'll be okay andI'll --I just --

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MR. SCHNEIDER: I really don't mindworking

with you and talking with you now.

GARY: Well, I'mglad to hear you say that,

Steve and I've, I'vekind of felt since last night --

MR. SCHNEIDER: It's not --

GARY: --that you and I got along very well.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, we have, Imean,

there's no, there's noproblem there.

GARY: Sure, and I just -- I'm,I'mkind of

depending on you to explain that to David and I, I --

MR. SCHNEIDER: I will, but, you know, even

right now he's not-- even like mehe'snot with it,

you know, it's, it's just difficult and --

GARY: Yeah. Okay, well, listen let's do

this: I'll let you get a little, little rest.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, Ireally -- I, I--

GARY: And I, I'll be here, if --in --


GARY: - the event that I do lay down for a

minute when you ring if somebody else answers --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. .

GARY: -- they'll comeand get me.

MR. SCHNEIDER: I think it should work now if

you ring 863-5252, Ireally believe it will.

GARY: You want to make one more test on it

real quick?

O O

105

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, would you dothat?

Just give me acall right back. '

GARY: Okay. If, if you don'thear my ring

-.-

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, just call you back.

GARY: --in a few minutes, you call me right

back, okay?

MR. SCHNEIDER: Iwill do that.

GARY: Okay?

MR. SCHNEIDER: :Okay. I'll dothat.

GARY: All right.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Call me right away.

GARY: Okay.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, bye.

GARY: Here we go.

Dial tone! Phone dialing! Phone ringing!

Phone company call error signal.!

TELEPHONE OPERATOR: I'm sorry--

Dial tone!

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #9: They've done

this again indiscernible!.

GARY: They have corrected the problem and

you should --

Dial tone! Phone dialing! Dial tone!

Unidentified male voice in background.!

Phone dialing! Phone ringing!

.1016

MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello?

GARY: Okay.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Gary, great.

GARY: Okay. Now, that connection is

working.

MR. SCHNEIDER: That makes me feel alot

better.

GARY: Well, metoo because gap!.

MR. SCHNEIDER;Because that'sbeen a real

problem all through the night.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Itreally bothered me.

GARY: Me -- bothered me too.


GARY: Gap! Steve, listen --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Gap! good, just give mealittle -- oh, man --

GARY: Okay. Give me, give me, give me a

ring when you rest up alittle bit.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Youmakesure you get some

sleep soyou -- you know,you're, you'reabout thesameplace I'm at here.

GARY: Okay. That soundslike a fair deal.

MR.SCHNEIDER: Gap! thanks Ji-- thanks

Gary.

GARY: Okay, Steve.

5 2

!

IQ7MR.SCHNEIDER: I said Jim, didn't I?

GARY: No, no, you started to sayJim but --

MR.SCHNEIDER: Okay.

GARY: -- you said Gary, that's fine.

MR.SCHNEIDER: Okay. Okay. Talk to you in!a bit.

GARY: Okay.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Bye.

GARY: Bye-bye.

Dial tone!

GARY: Isit recording now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER#10: Yes.

GARY: Timeis -- we just completed thephonecall at 8:12 a.m.on --

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #11:Good morning.

GARY: Good morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #11:IS Pat McGheethere?

GARY: I'msorry, sir, he's notat this

number. Areyou trying to get the -- where is ourother number here?

Electronic noises! Dial tone! Phone

dialing! Phone ringing! -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Hello?

GARY: Yes,mayIspeak to David or Steve?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Okay,who's

this?

moment.

108

GARY: This is Gary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Gary, wait one

GARY: Sure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: David? Okay.

Go get Steve. It's Gary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay. We're

getting him right now.

on hold.

GARY: Okay.

Pause! Electronic noises!

GARY: What's that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #12: It'Sa hold.

GARY: Oh, is that a hold?

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #12: They put you

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Did you enjoy

that music? It was, it was a mistake.

itself.

GARY: Where did that comefrom?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: The telephone

GARY: Oh. Who amI talking with?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:' Huh?

MR. GARY: Who isthis? . -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Who is this?

GARY: Yeah. I'm, I'mGary.

f92

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K.

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92

find out s

wasn't t TY

be friendly.

right now.

get Steve.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:

oon enough gap!

i

109

well, you'll

GARY: Okay. Well,that's fine. I,I, I

ing to be intrusive, I was jus


GARY: Somebody going to get S


GARY: Okay.


GARY: Great. Thank you very


Pause!

MR. SCHNEIDER: H8110, Gary?

GARY: Yeah, Steve?

M.SCHNEIDER: Yeah, in fact

laying downthere.

from Wayne

GARY: Oh, Wayne, Wayne -- we

,he wanted me to call you.

MR. SCHNEIDER

GARY: Yeah,

MR. SCHNEIDER

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER

Oh, really?

t was trying to

Yeah, well --

teve or Dave?

They are, yeah,

They've gone to

much.

Sure.

I was just

got a message

I was told to give you a call.

No kidding?

Well, I don't know. Didyou

I I

3

?

get ahold of Jim?

11b

GARY: No, no, we'restill inthe same

situation. They want him to rest for a while, Steve.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, it sounds good, I don't

blame them.

GARY: Well, you know, I'm goingto be gap!.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I have gap!.

GARY: I'mnot going to tell you something

that, that'snot goingto happen,but did you, did you

-- you sound like youmighthave just gottenup.

MR. SCHNEIDER:

like 10 minutes ago --

GARY: Yeah?

MR. SCHNEIDER:

Well, I, I just laid down

- and then I heard my name

being called thatI was togetto the telephone.

GARY: Oh.

MR. SCHNEIDER:

just goingto pass out.

So I

GARY: Yeah, well, I

didn'twant to disturb you. I

hear from you but then --


GARY: - then I got

said --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Indi

was just goingto, I was

was, I was going to -- I

was goingto wait to

the word that,that

scernible! we called --

GARY: -- call, call David or Steve.

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MR. SCHNEIDER: Ch, boy.

GARY: Maybethat'samisunderstanding from 1

our other phone.

MR. SCHNEIDER: YES --

GARY: Idon't know.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- that could be. I think I'm

going to lay down if you don't mind.

GARY: Sure, that's fine.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Lay back down here alittle

bit here.

GARY: Yeah, have you had -- you and David

had achance to talk anymore aboutwhat we talked

about?

MR. SCHNEIDER:No, because -no, he's been

laying down here.

GARY: How, how -- is his condition any

worse?

MR. SCHNEIDER: No, it'sthe same.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:You know,he, he never gotany sleep so --

GARY: Yeah, yeah. Does he have -- Ithink I

might haveasked youthat but Ican'trecall whatyoutold me. Does hehave medicationsthat he needs or --

MR. SCHNEIDER:He's okay,yeah--

GARY: Yeah, yeah.

Q I

112

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- everything'sfine. Yeah,»

he's, he'sall right. Thanks for asking. i

GARY: And Chrissie and, and Brian are, are,'

are still ready to come on out?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, they will be ready.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:He wants -- but, you know, as

soon as you can --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- call him or talk to him

which will give me a few moments to --

GARY: Yeah. Well, we're,we're ~-youknow --

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- reviving here.

GARY: Yeah. We're, we'reready to, to

receive them at, you know, anytime you want --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Right, okay, good.

GARY: -- like I told you before.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, once we start the

process we'll just keep on sending them out.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:You know,there's, there'snoproblem there at all.

GARY: Yeah, yeah. W

MR. SCHNEIDER:He just wants that assurance

and I, I knowwe can just keepright on going.

f 1

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Q;.' 11,3GARY: Yeah, you know, and that, that

looks -- obviously you know the extensive media.

coverage and,and whenthey're seeingthe kids come out

like it, it makes everybody feel that the situation --

MR.SCHNEIDER: Right.

GARY: -- has gotten safer and --


GARY: -- that reasonable people can,can

come to reasonable solutions --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Right. Gary --

GARY: -- and that makes mefeel good.

MR. SCHNEIDER:- I'mgoing to go - if you

don't mindI'm goingto go lay down for --

GARY:No, that's fine. Okay.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Thistime I'm

definitely -- yeah, what?Okay. Yeah,I'm goingtolay down and --

GARY:Okay.

MR.SCHNEIDER: -- I definitely will be

talking to you just shortly.

GARY: Okay. ,

MR.SCHNEIDER: Okay? ,

GARY: That sounds good.

MR.SCHNEIDER: Thanks, Gary. -

GARY:Uh-huh. g


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Gary?

phonetic

"114

GARY: Bye-bye. T

Pause! Electronic noises! Phne fin9$9

MR. WILKERSON: Yes, who is this?

ROBERT: Thisis Robert. Are you calling for

MR. WILKERSON:No, I'mcalling for the C.P.

ROBERT: Who is this, please?

MR. WILKERSON: This is Bob Wilkerson

sp.!.

ROBERT: Andwho are you calling for, sir?

MR. WILKERSON:Anybody out there with a

supervisory rank.

GARY: Hello?


GARY: Yeah, Steve.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Did you get any rest?

GARY: I'm afraid not.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I'm afraidI didn'teither.

GARY: You didn't?

MR. SCHNEIDER: NO.

GARY: Oh gosh, well --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. So --

GARY: --we're justgoing to have totroopit out between the two of us here and --

then?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Sowhat'shappened withJim

115

GARY: Well, there's no -- been no change in

that. I'm hoping we'regoing to be able to locate him

soon but again, Itold you Imet some resistance from,

from gap! can you hold me a second?

MR. SCHNEIDER: Sure.

GARY: Sorry, I had something in my throat.;

You know, I'm stillgetting some resistance in terms

of, of them wanting to, to bring him rightaway, but

he'll behere later. I don'tthink there'sany

question about that.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. _

GARY: I'm,I'm hopingwe can do that. But

I'd like to get --

' MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, what kind of time do

you think we're lookingat here?

GARY: I, I, Iwouldn'twant to pin down on *

a, on a time and then disappoint you lateron, but I'm,

I'm hopingwe can get him here pretty soon and --


GARY: - and we'llmove forward. But in the>

mean time I'd liketo, you know, proceed where we were 1

when we left off and --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Which was?

GARY: Well, we were talking again about the

two little ones andseeing whatwe coulddo to try to

arrange getting them out which I thinkis, is in

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keeping withwhat youfolks wantedand we'dlike to,"

we'd liketo accommodatethat. ' h

MR. SCHNEIDER:Hang on just a minute, Gary.GARY: Sure.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Just got another call here.

Just a minute.

GARY: Yeah, okay.

Pause!

Unidentified male voice inbackground.!

GARY: He still on the phone?


Electronic noises.!

GARY: Hello?


GARY: Yeah, Steve? V

MR. SCHNEIDER:Apparently, doyou haveitsowe can'tcall anywhere on the telephone or --

GARY: What's that?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Has our phone been -- have

you donesomething tothe operatorwhere wecan't call

but yournumber? VGARY: Yeah,I think they've,I think they've

captured thephone lines,you know,that's a-- kind dfa normal procedure they do out there on that stuff.

Have, haveyou just tried thatand it's notworking?-

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yes. I was supposed tocall

.

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someone gap!here and of course Ican'tget out to l

anybody but yourself.

GARY: Yeah gap! this, this just happened?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Just happened, yeah.

GARY: It's,it's-- I mean, Iwasn'taware

of that, but it'snormally somethingthey do in most of

these situations.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, Iguess I got to --

I'll haveto call you back now indiscernible!.

GARY: Well, I'm herenow.

MR. SCHNEIDER:

to you now. We got to -

goes on you guys-- look

all. I'll tell you what

GARY: Well --

MR. SCHNEIDER:

I

I

Well, I'mnot - Ican'ttalk

this is bad. I mean as time

this is really not good at

I'm nothappy.

I'll talk to you when Ihave

discussed it with someothers here. Bye.

GARY: Okay.

Phones hung up!

GARY: Hello?

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #13: Is this I

indiscernible! airport?

GARY: Yes,it is, but this number isnot ;

being usedfor airport business today.You maywantItotry sap! - I

Dial tone! Phone dialing! Phone ringiqg!

C

11a

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #2: H6110?

GARY: Yes,this Gary. MayIspeak to Steye?UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #2:Just a A

moment, please. -

GARY: Thank you.

Pause!

Unidentified female voice in background.!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #2:Gary?

GARY: Yes? ;

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #2:He's Onthe

other phone talking to someone else.

GARY: Okay. Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #2:Gap! youwant to hold on just aminute?

GARY: Sure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #2:Okay.

Pause!

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #14:I put that

number onthe top of the indiscernible!.


Pause! _y

UNIDENTIFIEDMALESPEAKER #15: Hey, this isJim. Ihope indiscernible!.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #2:COming?He's coming.

GARY: Okay, thank you.

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Pause!

UNIDENTIFIED

wants to come out.

Pause!

119

MALE SPEAKER#15: somebody


UNIDENTIFIED

what's takingso long,

you back?

GARY: I can

FEMALE SPEAKER#2: I don't know

Gary. Do you want him to call

hold for a bit. Do, do you

think he'llbe here shortly or --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER#2: I don't

know. I wasn't theone thatwent tocheck tosee wherehe was so --

GARY: Okay.

come back to this area

to call me up?

UNIDENTIFIED

GARY: Okay,

UNIDENTIFIED

GARY: I'll,

from him, okay?

UNIDENTIFIED

right. Bye-bye.

Okay. You, you expect him to

and then you'll, you'lltell him

FEMALE SPEAKER#2: Yeah.

why don'twe do that then?

FEMALE SPEAKER#2: Okay.

I'll sithere and hope to hear

FEMALE SPEAKER#2= Okay. All


Tape 5, side B!

Phone rings!

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UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #16: Hello, Pat?

GARY: Who are you trying to reach, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #16:Pat McGhee?

GARY: He'snot at this number today and

won't be.You may want to try gap!.

Phone dialing! Phone ringing!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3: Hello?

GARY: Yeah, this is Gary again. I was

waiting for a call from Steve. Did --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3: Just a

minute, just a minute.

GARY: Sure.

Unidentified female voice in background.!'

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3:Can YOUSée

if Steve can cometo the phone? Gary.Tell him it'sGary.

Unidentified male voices in background.!

Pause!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3:Pick up yqur

phone. He'sstill not able to come tothe phoneatthis time.

GARY: Okay.Does --will he be comingto;the phone in a little bit or -- ~

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3:Hopefullyv

Like Isaid, I just sentthe message tohim. Ididnt

go myself. K

121

GARY: Uhhuh. He's notin the area whereyyou are now? A

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3: No.

GARY: Okay.Well, wouldyou just tell hidthat Gary called and --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3:Okay.

GARY: -- he knows how to reach me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3:All right.1

GARY: Thanks a lot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3:Okay, bye.GARY: Bye-bye.

Phones hungup! Phone rings.!

GARY: Hello?

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #17=Hello, is i

this Pat?

GARY: No. Pat gap!.

Pause! Phone ringing!

GARY: Hello?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Hello, this is Steve

Schneider.

GARY: Yes,Steve, this is Gary again. *

MR. SCHNEIDER:Gary, howare youdoing withgetting Jim?

GARY: Well, there's beenno changein, inthat.

MR. SCHNEIDER: There hasn't?

122

GARY: No.

MR. SCHNEIDER:And it'sabout 5:00going onfive to 2:00?

GARY: Yeah, I've got 1:53.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.

GARY: Yeah.

M. SCHNEIDER: So, what, what, what'staking

place, because we wanted to get the process going again

and --

GARY: Well, like I told you, we're, we're

ready to start the process and we have been all day '

long.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Obviously, you know, I was

just on the other line, aphone call came through, I

was able to talk with them.

GARY: Uhhuh.

MR. SCHNEIDER: And they asked me to call

them back and now that line's been cut.

GARY:Yeah.

M. SCHNEIDER: I'm --

GARY: I, I thought you told me the lines I

were cut earlier?

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, they -- all of them 1

were. I didn't realize there was one last one. Y

GARY: How many lines do you have inthat '

place?

123

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, with -- Idon't -- l

should I -- you probably already know because none --

GARY: No, I'm --

- MR. SCHNEIDER: -- of the are working now.

GARY: -- I'm wayback over here at the

airport. I don't --

M. SCHNEIDER: Gary, I'mgoing to tell you,

I'm, I'm-- I can understand-- we have -- look, they

asked meabout you guys, I mentioned your name andI

mentioned Jim.

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:And I said these guys are

doing anawesome jobwith us, they want-- they don't

to see anymore loss of life and --

GARY: Well,that's right.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and, and Itold them that.

And I -- really,I said I have thehighest regard for

these peopleas, as David does,he thinks, you know,

they haveshown usa lot of, of decency and,and -- but

there's onething if you coulddo for us, if you could

leave oneline openfor the spiritual aspect becauseI

reallywhy I'm outhere, why we'reall here-- I

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- is that they have

questions aboutour doctrine, I meanthat's amajorthing to us. I mean, if wecould gap!.

92

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GARY: Whowas thatyou were just talking Iwith, Steve? '

MR. SCHNEIDER: Pardon?

GARY: You were referring to talking to, to

him orwhatever. Who,who, whowere you just talkingto about this?

MR. SCHNEIDER:You meanon the telephone?

GARY: Yeah, yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. What'sthat oh-oh,

here wego. What'shappening? Justa minute. Whats

happening? Okay.I guess they're movingin on us,huh?

GARY: Nobody'smoving in on you.

MR. SCHNEIDER:He's --Gary is telling me

nobody is. Talk to me, youpeople. Okay. They're,

they're checking it out.

GARY: I -- and you'll findout as before

that no one's makingany efforts to --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, Gary,I mean, you know,it's obvious that--

GARY: Now,we've been,we've beenthrough,,

we've beenthrough this-- I

M. SCHNEIDER:-- you know I'venever been,

in this situation, noneof ushave beenlike this in jour lives, you know.

GARY: Well,I don'tthink anybodyalive has

O 9

125

been throughevents like, like what everyone's just

gone through here. '

MR. SCHNEIDER:Exactly. So, you know, its,it's --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:- it'ssomething newand,

and, youknow, onedoesn'twantto do anythingrapidly

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and make mistakes and --

GARY: Well, you know, I know we, we Y

mentioned toyou this several timesand I want youto,

to understand we meanthis. I don't knowhow to, to

makeitmore, more clearto you. Nobody's goingto

come in there and try to --

MR. SCHNEIDER:David keeps -- Gary,I'm

sorry, I didn't wantto cut you off --

GARY: That'sokay.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- but David -- asking me

rightnow, how comeJim hasn'tcalled he keeps on

asking?

GARY: Um-hum.

M. SCHNEIDER: I'm serious.Here'sa

QUY " ~

.GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- that,you know, he--

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that's, that'swhat he'sasking for.

GARY: Well, and, and I know David's, David's

your boss there and, and I'm-+ you know, candidly I"m

running into some problems with my bosses here.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Why would that be so hard

when he actually gap!.

GARY: Let me explain it to you.

MR. SCHNEIDER:If you want to alleviate the

problem and you want to do the best, what is so hard

about gettingan individualthat, that was workingsowell?

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I mean, that's his-- one his

desires, to continue onin the process. It is nothingagainst yourself. It's - i

GARY: No, I know, I know that.

MR. SCHNEIDER:- it's just that, you know,

between the words that were shared between them, I'm

going to respect that with him.- The manalready showed

me morethan I ever dreamedcould be possible for a E

human beingto learn so I give him the respect in

saying that he would like to continue this negotiation

himself as he started it with, with Jim. '

GARY: Um-hum. "

MR. SCHNEIDER:I mean, it's nothingwith

you.It's his desire. And what he, what he

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understands aboutthat, all the whys, you know, that's,

that's --he's showedme andtold us both, you know,

some ofthe reasons but I want to be able to give that

and say well, well, let's continueto do that then.

And it'snot that I'm notgoing to -- I'llcontinue no

talk to you, Gary, but with the, with the situation

with thechildren and,and continuingto workthis omtI'll, I'lltalk to you, buthe wouldlike to talk withJim and, and --

GARY: I know that.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- hear his voice again and,and --

GARY: Iknow that.He -~one of,one ofthethings I have to contend with just like David, David

is, is, is the boss insidethere. I have tocontendwith some bosses here.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Do you have, you have a

speaker phonewhere theycan hearme right now?

»GARY:No.,

MR. SCHNEIDER:I wish, I wish you did so

that theycould hearwhat I'msaying, you'resaying, ,maybe theycould makea judgmenton thatunless youwant to just keepgoing backto themor whoevertheyare. . _

GARY: Well,I, I want to -~ if you let me

finish, whatI wantto explainto youis you told me

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how Davidunderstood -- didn't understandwhy, whywe

couldn't getJim here. In the same token,I think, I

think you could understand that my bosses don't

understand whyyou can'tjusttalk to me.They, they-- from their point of view --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Because look, you're --

GARY: -- it'sjustas much --

MR. SCHNEIDER;-- on a side where you're

okay, you'renot going to be inany trouble when this

is all over. We'rein a precarious positiondealingwith ourown lives.That's --I mean,it's atotallydifferent situation.

GARY: And I think you know that I wouldn't

do anything to --

MR. SCHNEIDER:If I were inyour place I

would be saying the very samethings to someone like

me, I would be, I, I can't disagreewith you on that.

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. SCHNEIDER:But beingthat we'reinthispredicament and, and it'sa nightmare of course --

GARY: Okay. .

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and we havethe deepest

regret about the whole -- the loss of life with -- I

mean, we can't tellyou enough. ~

GARY: Okay. Let, let me, let me do this.

I'm, I'mgoing to --

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GARY: - I'm goingto renew my efforts to --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Thank you.

GARY: -- to see if Ican appeal the

situation. But when I go to my bosses, now Ihave to

be able to convey to them --


GARY: - the sense of how bringing Jim here

is going to make some, some,some positive influence --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well --

GARY: --on events. h

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. Well, you tell them

that David he saw -- there was a-- they, they

started yesterday -- the whole negotiating process

started with Jim.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:He did so well, his demeanor,

the attitude.

GARY: Well, Iknow, he, he did awonderful

job. -

MR. SCHNEIDER:He really did, and, and the =

sincerity and --

GARY: Umhum.

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and David, he -- it's

nothing against you, but he beganwith the man andhewanted to continue.

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GARY: Well, I, I understand, I understand

that, believe me. And believe me, I'm, I'm,I'm not

offended by that.

M. SCHNEIDER: Right.

GARY: But, but again now, now, put yourself

in my shoes for a minute. Now, I'vegot to go to my

bosses.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I, I think you can do it, I,

I -- in fact I know you can, Gary --

GARY: Okay.

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- because you know that this

is still a volatile situation.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I mean, like yourself we say

we want to do itand work out an arrangement where --A

GARY: Um-hum. -

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- not only the children are

spared but we all have a, a chance. And so, you know,

this is what we're,we're workingfor and I know you

are. You've,you've saidmany timesand I believe you

when you say that there's noone out there that wants

more loss of life and, you know --

GARY: Well, there's, there'smore than a

chance, there'sabsolutely noreason inthe worldwhy 1WEcan't --

' MR.scrmsxnsm Exactly.

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GARY: -- we can't--

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, Ilike hearing that.

GARY: .--resolve thispeacefully. And,andIsee no obstacle other than this unfortunate issue

that's developed.But, but Steve, if, ifyou'lllisten

to me for a minute becausethis is very important.

Now, if I, ifI go in to the bosses onemore time,

okay, andI say listen, David is absolutely adamant

about talkingto Jim, I have to be able to convey to

themhow that, thatprocess is, is going to

specifically -- Ican'ttalktoday -- howit's reallygoing to benefit the --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, here's --

GARY: -- what we'retrying to do. Imean,for example --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, let me -- here's

something that'sgoing to benefit it.

GARY: Gap!

MR. SCHNEIDER:Ifit'snot donethat way--GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- well then we'reat a totallossand if you just want to --

GARY: Well,I, I know,Iknow you're saying

that, but can yoube, canyou bemore specificwith me?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, meaningthat if, if, ifwe don'tfollow throughwith that desire ofhis, andI

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don't thinkit's unreasonable,and if they don'twant

to bend well then to me it's showingthat they --

GARY: No, but it's not --


GARY: -- a matter of bend. But you have to

understand all the bureaucrats out here, all the law-

enforcement officers, they don'tdeal in the realmof

the desire and understand,they're, they'remoreinthe

area of some, some concrete --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, I would agreewith you

about the lack of understanding because --

GARY: Well,and I, and I want to try to helpthem understand and I'mlooking --

MR. SCHNEIDER:You know, like that'swhat

we're --

GARY: -- I'm lookingto you --

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I believe thatabout the

bureaucrats too.

GARY: -- I'm, I'mlooking to you to help me

to help them understand.Now, now,it's timethat we,

we discussedfor examplehow doyouthinkwe might be

able to move towards,towards resolvingthis situation?

If I can impartupon themthatbringing Jim backis

going tostart us downthatpath of, of, of settlementand, and, and --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well,David he hasn'tspoken

133

to me about all the ideas but --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you know,but he starts

talking with Jim that he will develop --

GARY: Well --

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- that hewill develop

indiscernible!.

GARY: - no, but you see, it'slikewe're,

we're, we'reputting what came first the chicken or the

egg. If I can -- I tell you, I've talkedto the bossesand, and --

MR. SCHNEIDER:This is a very strong desireof a group that's --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- in a very precarioussituation. -

GARY: I know that, I know that. But, but if

I can demonstrate abenefit, and,and if you couldbea little morespecific --

MR. SCHNEIDER:The benefitis that gap!maybe allwalk out of this place andsit down

ultimately andwhatever elseneeds tobedonefor, forthe loss, loss of life.

GARY: Well, no, there'snoquestion what

you're sayingultimately maybe, of course, ofcoursewe can do that,and, and --

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what I'msaying. But the best way we see it, the most

trustful way --

GARY: Uh-huh.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- is to do itthat way.

" GARY: Okay. Now, if, if we're ableto do

this, we'reready to start with the process with the

children again?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, he'sspeaking to me.

I'm sorry,Gary, just one second, one second.

GARY: Yeah, I'llhold on. Go ahead.

Pause!

M. SCHNEIDER: Doing this--

GARY: Huh?

MR. SCHNEIDER:He said he was doing this

with Jim to see how trustworthy and --

GARY: Um-hum.

-4 MR. SCHNEIDER: --how the whole systemwould

operate, thisis why. He'swaiting to see -- and now

it'slooking pretty bad, that's hisstatement.

GARY: Well, I,I wouldn't agreewith that.

MR. SCHNEIDER:And gap!if I were to gap!

to himwhat you'vebeen tellingme, thatyou've togoto your bosses, youknow, andhow they'regoing to take

it, well, that's -that makesit even look andsoundworse.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. That's-- well, that's

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GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, bottom line that's

what it sounds like.

GARY: Well, no, no. Now, we have to

understand --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, see Jim talked in a way

where hewas supposedto be the manthat was the one_

giving the word right all the way through, that he was

connecting withthis agency, that agency,holding thembackV--

GARY: Well --

MR: SCHNEIDER:-- passing the word right on

from yesterday when it all began.

GARY: I think Jim worked very hard to

accomplish somevery significant things concerningthevery tragic --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well gap! the trust that

David developedwith himand let's,let's bringhimback. I'm,I'm surethat he would be a man --

GARY: But, but, but --

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- that would love to play a

part in that process indiscernible! havehim.

GARY: -- he-- you're, you're-- I agree

with you, but you're,you're avoidingmy, myneed on

this too. I, I want to helpyou butI needyou tohelpme andwhatI need to showmy bossis thathey, if we

136

bring Jim forward again, I mean this is what's

positively going to happen. Imean --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, do so.

GARY: - give you an example, okay? Just --

and, and this is something that we've beentalking

about all day anyway. We talked about Chrissie and

Brian and, and that once we get them out we were going

to start the process.You saidonce theycome outthe

process begins and it won't stopuntil it's over. If I

was -- now, that's something you'vealready talked

about doing. This isnot some sort of a, a new

concession or a new idea. If Iwere to be able to go

into my bosses and say listen, they assure me thatif I

can get Jim here we can start this process and I've got

their guarantee, Steve has assured me that David says

that this is going to happen, then I thinkI've got a

real good chance toconvince themthat, that--

MR. SCHNEIDER;Well see,that's --okay,Gary, that's --

GARY: Don'tyou think that's, that'sa

reasonable indiscernible!. -

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that'sexactly what

David said last night. He -- you know what?When it

was suggested by Jim even to stop and get a little rest

--f

GARY :Um - hum .

F

137

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- David actually said to me-- he was botheredbecause hewanted tocontinue to

indiscernible! the children out.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. SCHNEIDER: That's thetruth.

GARY: Well, I, I--

MR. SCHNEIDER:That's honestlythe truth.

GARY: --I'm sureit is, but we'retalking

about lastnight. Now,how_can weback ontrack rightnow today?

MR. SCHNEIDER:By, by beginning againwithJim --

GARY: Right.

MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and continuing onand, and

if he wants toinvolve youand you'reon the other lineor Italk to you or whatever else --

GARY: Well, I'll beinvolved --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay, sure.

GARY: -- throughout this process.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.

GARY: But, but can Igo to my boss and tell

him that? CanIgo to myboss andsay thatif we can

get Jimhere thatlittle Chrissie and Brianare goingto come out and the other kids --

MR. SCHNEIDER:Now yougot it.Yeah, if we_ can get Jim there can, canhe sayto his bosses that

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little Chrissie and Brian gap! yeah, that's whatwe're

- that's-- he says that'sexactly what we were doing

when we were talking with Jim. That's

indiscernible! - _

GARY: Okay. So they're,they're, they're--

MR. SCHNEIDER: -- we never wanted to stop.

GARY: -- ready to come out, and --

MR. SCHNEIDER: That's correct.

GARY: -- and once they come out the

additional children will come out?

MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly, exactly. That's --

GARY: And we're goingto try to replicate

essentially --

MR. SCHNEIDER: Here, I'm,I'm goingto --

GARY: -- the process we did last night?

M. SCHNEIDER: -- hand you over to David,

okay, Gary?

GARY: Sure, that'1l be fine.

MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Here he is. Hi,

David?

M. KORESH: Hey Gary, listen --

. GARY: How are you feeling, David?

MR. KORESH: Don't worry. Look --

GARY: Yeah?

MR. KORESH: -- last night we had about four

or five different people calling all the time telling

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us what to do, right?

GARY: Yeah, yeah.

MR. KORESH= Yeah indiscernible!.

GARY: This was before, before Jim started?

M. KORESH:Well,during the time Jim - we

first contacted Jim, all right?

GARY: Uh-huh.

MR. KORESH: Now, when I established with Jim

who he was I told him, I said, look, now, you're,

you're allsaying drop your weapons, come on out, I

says indiscernible! --

Unidentified female voice in background.!

MR. KORESH: -- we'vegot to do something

because Jim kept saying we got to develop a trust --

GARY: Right, right.

MR. KORESH: - you know?

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: So what happens is, is that it

came to the point where Jim said - he says, you know, »

"Look, don'ttalkto anybody else, don't negotiatewith

anybody else."He said, "We're goingto do this all F the way to the end."

GARY: Right.

MR. KORESH: And so we started it. We had,

we had alittle, we had a littletrouble atthe

beginning.

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GARY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: But, you know, we finally got

our system going to get my babies out.

GARY: Yeah.

MR. KORESH: Okay. Now, I told him, I said,

now, you know, you keep your part of the deal and I'll'

keep my part of the deal, then once we get all the

babies out then we'llstart talking about what we've

got to do --

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: -- for the rest of them.

GARY: Um-hum, um-hum.

MR. KORESH: Now, last night Jim, Jim told

Steve that he was tired and he had to get some rest.

Now, he -- we -- he said, "Why don't youguys get some

rest and we'll -- "--

GARY: Yeah.

MR. KORESH: -- " -- and we'll take care of

this in the morning?"

GARY: Yeah.

MR. KORESH:And, and it's --I thought,

well, you know, let's-- why stop, you know? Because

the babieswere sleepinganyway, we'dhave towake themup --

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: -- to get them ready.

141

GARY: Umhum.

MR. KORESH:Now, okay. So okay, you know, I

agree, this is okay, you know, this is -- the ball is

on your side of the court. So now, I mean, you know,

you came on and you -- you know, you're, you'recoming

in and saying trust you and all that and that'snot

the, that's not the question.

GARY: Uh-huh.

MR. KORESH: The, the question is, am, am I

going to show that my integrity is to adhere to the

agreements that I've previously made.

GARY: Well, do you, do you think Jim would,

would leave me on the phone if he didn't think I had

the integrity and to, to talk and deal with you?

MR. KORESH: I, I think he left you on the

phone to do just that, to talk --

GARY: Yeah, to, to, to --

MR. KORESH: -- and he --

GARY: - not, not to keep you busy, but to

move forward with the groundwork that he had laid.

MR. KORESH: No, that'snot what he said.

GARY: Well --

M. KORESH: That's notwhat our agreement

was.

GARY: -- the, the confusion I thinklied in,

in the separate line thatwas going onwith Wayne. And

142

what Jim was meaningatthat time washe wanted to be

sure we were staying on one line and talking to one

person.

MR. KORESH: Look, me and Jim talked --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. KORESH:-- all day yesterday. I know

exactly what we talked about --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. KORESH: -- and what we --

GARY: I know. You know, David, it's just

that we've,we've, we'veturned this issueinto a--

just, just amajor stumbling blocktoday and,and --

MR. KORESH:Becauseit is apoint that I

wantto see about you guys --

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH:-- to see whetheryou're just

wearingamask or whetheryou're actuallygenuine human

beings with genuine humansympathy.

GARY: Um-hum. Well, of course we are.

MR. KORESH:See, there's,there's ministers

in this world that do a job --

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH:-- and they are, they are asfake asa three-dollar bill.

GARY: Well, I, I understand that and --

MR. KORESH:Yeah, now you do understand

143

that. Now, here's thedeal. You'retelling me you

don'twantanymore death, but what you'reshowing me is

the propaganda to try to promote one's self involved in

a situation that deals with the lives of others. Now,

if you were on this side of the fence you would

understand what I'm talkingabout; if I was on your

side of the fence I would understand what you're

talking about because I am me. You see, that's why,

that's whythat inthe doctrine that I teach, I teach

itno matter how incriminating it is againstme.

That's whatI was trying to do for the agent next door,

I was showing him the truth about me.

GARY: What agent next door isthat, Dave?

MR. KORESH: That was Robert Gonzalez and

Jeff and those guys. Now, the reason why, the reason

why, you know, we were waiting on you guys isbecause

like I said,we have a communication with somebody that

knows all things --

GARY: Yeah.

MR. KORESH: -- the alpha and omega. And I

told Robert, I looked at him and looked into his eyes,

I says, "Robert, you know I'veshowed you the truth out

of the book, I am notgoing to hide anything from you.

And I says, "But now yougot to make adecision, you've

got to do what you've gotto do and I'vegot to do what

I've gotto do." And I gave himevery opportunity to

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know thatthere's aGodinheaventhat judgesthehearts of men andknows the minds of men. And I

thought and was hopingfor sure he would choose to be

able to get with you guysand saylook, the guy showed

me somethingout of the book, he's genuineand the

problem is wedon'tunderstand himandweneed to come

and talk.

GARY: Yeah.

M. KORESH=And see,Idid everything in my

power toavoid yougentlemen comingand doingwhatyoudid. I

GARY: I have to apologize to you because I

don't knowGonz- I'm,I'm notwith ATFand I, andI

wasn't involvedin that process. I --

MR. KORESH: Well --

GARY: - Idon'tknow all the backgroundtothat.

MR. KORESH: Well, Jim'swith ATP.

GARY: Right, but I'm just telling you I, I

don't,I don'twant togive youthe sensethat Iknow

all of the backgroundof this because, becauseIdon't.

MR. KORESH:Well, Ibrought him into myhouse and everything -- I

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH:--you know? I have, Ihave

nothing tohide aslong asyou letme openup theBible

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GARY: Yeah.

MR. KORESH:-- and see, if you'd listento aman's religion.

GARY: I think if we'd putsunshine on this

whole matterwe're allgoing to be better off. I think

MR. KORESH: But --

MR. GARY: -- there'sopportunity to have a

lot of things that, that you want to say andI,I thinkwe can help you do that.

MR. KORESH=Look, I know what I know and

obviously you know youdon't knowwhat I know.

GARY: I wouldn't beginto pretend to know

everything that'sin your mind andin your heart,David.

MR. KORESH:Okay. Now,the Bible is a big

book andthe harmonyof what the prophetshave been

shown mustbe harmonized,otherwise menof this

generation cannotknow thatthe prophetsare inharmonywith themselves. Any organizationthatis not in

harmony withitself cannot stand. The churches because

there areso manyof themis obviousproof that

somebody iswrong. Ifthere is one God, heshould be

worshiped asone Godand heshould haveone peoplewithone nameand onetruth.And so Godhas in wisdom

146

reserved atestament sothat all men withopen eyesand

open minds might see that thatcredential called the

servant of God mustbe able to plainly reveal the seven

seals in the light of the prophets. I didn't write

that. That was written long before I came into the

world and you cameinto the world. And so becauseit

is written, it is written that we mightknow andnow

because Ihave beenmisunderstood it'snot by those

who've heardme oropened thebook andsaw thewords,

it's bythose who refused to listen. So --

GARY: Um-hum,um-hum. Well, David, I knowyou're -- '

MR. KORESH: How come Jim --

GARY: Youknow, you, you sound, you sound

like you'rereally hurtingright nowand I'm,I'm veryconcerned for you.

MR. KORESH:How comeJim hasn'tcome inyet?

GARY: Okay.What I was trying to explain to

Steve, and,and I'mtrying to help youto understand,

what mybosses --they wantedhim tohave somesleepand I told Steve, beginning moreand morerealized that

this is an absolutelycritical item for you, but before

I can go in to mybosses and,and convincethem that,

that by bringing Jimthisis going tomake averypositive impact on the events.

M. KORESH:The children are going to be let

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out of here as long as Jim is communicating with me

like we agreed. -

GARY: Yeah, yeah. See, what they don't

understand, David, is, is, is why you're, you're

wrapping everything into one person, because Jim is

just a voice for, for the authorities here.

MR. KORESH: No, Jim is a person.

GARY: Of course he is.

MR. KORESH: He's not just a voice for the

authorities.

GARY: But, but he speaks for the authority

of, of the on-scene commanders here and, and that's --

now, now you're comfortable talking with Jim, I

understand that, and I understand --

MR. KORESH: Well, let me explain again,

Gary. He also has respect for the voice of the

authority thatI speak in behalf of.

GARY: I have respect for thattoo Dave, I

have respect for that too and you know that.

MR. KORESH: So then why do you not adhere to

the original agreements? I mean, what is it? Are you

GARY: Well then, what, what original

agreement are you referring to?

MR. KORESH: Me and Jim to avoid a lot of

additional -- .

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GARY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: -- confusion and flak --l

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH:-- we decided and agreed and

confirmed that we woulddeal with nobody else but --

GARY: Well, see --

MR. KORESH:-- Jim and that'swhy --

GARY: -- see, the on-scene commanders are .

telling me that Jim never, nevermade that,that

promise.

MR. KORESH: That's not--

GARY: He,he wasgoing to talk with you and

work withyou, but I think you, youput moreinto thatthan what he said.

MR. KORESH:That's nottrue, Gary.

, GARY: Yeah? Well, I'll, I'lltell you what

I'd liketo do. I'd liketo reachout to Jim myself

and geta clarificationon this. But now,for meto goin andconvince mybosses thathey, I'vegot toget Jimhere totalk to David, thisis just an imperativeso

that wecan moveforward and,and getback ontrack and

make, make,make someprogress hereso thatwe canallresolve this situation --

MR. KORESH:Get thething overwith, yeah.

GARY: Well,we don'twant tosee anybodyelse gethurt. For me todo that,can, canI tell them

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that if, if we bring Jim here that we can start the

process again of the children getting them out?

MR. KORESH: Immediately.

GARY: Immediately, okay. I have, I have

your guarantee --

MR. KORESH: Immediately.

GARY: -- that if, if I can get Jim here --

MR. KORESH: Just like last night,

immediately.

GARY: Okay.I have, I have your wordon

that then? _

MR. KORESH: You have God's wordon that.

GARY: Okay. Well, I'll, I'll acceptthat

warmly. And okay, let me talk to them.

MR. KORESH:That's whatwe've beentrying to

tell you all night long, Gary.

GARY:Well,I know, andit's hardfor

me -- you feel so strongly about it it's hardfor me to

try to explain to you the perspective from out here and

I, I think I'vefailed indoing that. But I want you

to understand and I hope you believe that there's no

malicious intent in that. It's justit's difficultfor

the, for the bosseshere to fully comprehendand

understand what'sgoing onand, andI'm, I'mtrying to

help themto understand.And I think we'remaking some

progress now, but you, you've givenme somethingto

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which I can carry to them now andI can make a very

strong pitch, let's get Jim here from the hotel and

let's --

MR.KORESH: And let's--

GARY: -- andlet's --

MR. KORESH: -- get these babies out of here.

GARY: Because you've, you'veguaranteed me

now that we can start the process. How many kids are

there, David? I

MR. KORESH:You'll findoutwhen you getthem all. '

GARY: Okay. _

MR.KORESH: There's alot, okay?

GARY: Oh, there is? Do, do we need any

special -- I mean, are they all old enough to walk or

MR.KORESH: No, some of them are like

newborns.

GARY: Newborns, yeah, okay.

MR.KORESH: So --

GARY: What'sgap! to do it like we did~

before, two-by-twoor did you wantto send more of themout? .

MR. KORESH:Like -- just like Jim and I

agreed. ~

' GARY:Yeah. Is, is that the -- is that the

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easiest method to do it or, or is there other idea --

MR. KORESH= It establishes a greater line of

trust.

GARY: Okay, that's, that'sgood, good for

us. All right. Let me then go with that, David, go to

my bosses and, and discuss with them what we've talked

about. And I feel more optimistic that I've got

something concrete now rather than just, you know, we

have to talk, we have to talk. Now I've, I'vegot some

firm commitments.

MR. KORESH: Well, I went indiscernible!

this all last night.

~ GARY: well, it really didn't come out that

way to tell you the truth and maybe it was my

misunderstanding, but it, it - it's more clear now to

me.


GARY: And --

MR. KORESH: Once Jim gets on the phone and

he sends a van two more children are going to be there.

GARY: Okay.

MR. KORESH: See, now they, now they can know

that there'sno peoplein the, in the, in the trailer

up at the front so we'll just decide whether hewants

us to drive them down to the water tanks or whether he

wants us to just drop them up at the front part of the

O O 152property.

GARY: Umhum.

MR. KORESH: S0 --

GARY: Okay. when, when he gets here

hopefully we can work those details out and so that we

can do itin a way that'ssatisfactory to everybody and

everybody feels good about itand we can make some

progress.

MR.KORESH: Okay.

GARY: Okay?

MR. KORESH: Thank you, I appreciate it.

GARY: Okay. well, well, are you going to be

there now where I can reach out to you on the phone?

MR. KORESH: Yeah, I'll always be here,

that's- I ain't going nowhere.

GARY: Okay. Are you able to walk around?

MR. KORESH: I can't move.

GARY: Really? Do you have any extra

medications that, that you need or something?

MR.KORESH: No, Im doing all right.

GARY: Okay. We'd like,we'd liketo get you

out there to a hospital as soon as we can.

MR.KORESH:A No, I don't, Idon't knowif

that - do any good anyway.

GARY: Well, I, I thinkwe don'twant you

to suffer an injury that'sgoing to take your life, you

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know, I mean --

MR. KORESH: Gary --

GARY: - you suffered an injury.

MR. KORESH: -- you know, this old world --

GARY: I know, I know.

MR. KORESH: - some ATF agents have died,

right?

GARY: That's right.

MR. KORESH: I'm nobetter than they are.

GARY: And you're no worse and, and, and

there's alot of bloodshed that happened today and -- I

mean yesterday and believe me, we don't want to see

anybody else die from wounds received. It doesn't --

that's notgoing to bring back the lives of anybody

else who --

MR. KORESH: You know, you know what? You

know what one of the greatest pains there is, is when I

look out a window and see those, those young men laying

out there --

GARY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: and to think that if it'd

been on a different situation wecould have been good

friends. I

GARY: Yeah, I think you're right.

MR. KORESH: You know --

GARY: You're right.

.' 154MR. KORESH: -that's, that's what hurts.

GARY: Yeah, yeah. well, we have to make a

commitment to go on and, and making things better than

they wereand learn from the mistakes of the past and

indiscernible!.

MR. KORESH: well, the thing is is that man

never learns the mistakes of the past.

GARY: Yeah,I don'tknow, I don't know.

MR. KORESH: In the book of Zefenia it talks

about the Lord

GARY: Yeah.

MR. KORESH: being in a certain nation that

would not receive instructions, you obeyed not the

voice says the just lord in the midst thereof and you

will bring indiscernible! for his judgment

indiscernible! to light every morning but the unjust

will know no shame. Talks about a person revealing the

seals, you know?

GARY: Well, let's hope that we, we've, we've

learned from our mistakes at least to the point that we

can avoid anymore bloodshed in this situation, okay?

MR. KORESH: Okay. So give me a call back

then, all right? Y

I GARY: Okay. We'll be calling you back as

soon as I have a chance to talk to the bosses.

MR. KORESH: Tell the bosses to give us some

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GARY: Okay. Well, I'll to them. Let's --

I'm workingon Jim first, okay? L

MR. KORESH: Okay. Thank you.

GARY: Good enough. Bye-bye.

MR. KORESH: Bye.

Phones hung up!

end of tape!

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9292

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS A

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TAPE #6

2/28/93

note: tapes 4and 5 dated March 1; tape 6 may bemisdated as Feb. 28.!

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Tape 6!

DAVID: Okay, here Iam.

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: David?

DAVID:Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay. Well, I've

got somegood newsfor you. h

DAVID:Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: But rather thank

me saying it, Ithink Ihave somebody here that maybe

can explain it to you a little bit better. Okay?

DAVID:Okay.

JIM: David? Hey, this is Jim.

DAVID: So, what are you doing?

JIM: Hey, buddy, how you doing?

DAVID: Well, I'm, I'mwondering what, whats

going on.

JIM: Oh, shoot, I've been kind of worried

about you. I've beenkind of out of touch and I

apologize. Iknow Gary's beenhelping you. Let me

tell you what happened. The commanders wanted me to

get somerest. You know, oneof thoseagentsIknew

pretty good.

DAVID:Uh-huh.

JIM: And Iwas kind of upset about it. And

they wanted me to get some rest, you know. And -- but,

listen, and then after that, I went by Human Services

3

tosee if the kids were okay. And I'm sorryit took so

long. How have you been getting on? '

DAVID: Well, you know, I'm layinghere.

JIM: Still can't move?

DAVID: No.

JIM: Geez.

DAVID: But the deal, like I was telling him,

you know, I told him I made, Imade an agreement with

you.

JIM: Um-hum.

DAVID: And I'mnotgoing to break that, I'm

not going tobreak that atall. So --

JIM: I know you're-- _

DAVID: And I realize you needed sleep last

night, you know. So I told him, I said well, we can

take itup inthe morning.

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: So --

JIM: But, you know --

DAVID: -- what we was doing, right?

JIM: Right. Buddy, youknow I wouldn't give

you anybodythat,you know, you couldn'ttrustand --

DAVID: Well, that's notwhatwe agreed on.

I probably could trust thisguy, but, you know, it's

nota matterof us trusting somebody orsomeone saying

trustme. Thematteris, is we madeadeal and we've

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been having calls from all these different directions

with people telling uswhat to do. H

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: Wanting usto make adeal with them.

JIM: Sure, I understand.

DAVID: You know, you can't -you know,

we're not bookies, we don't dothat kind of deal.

JIM: Yeah, I understand. But --

DAVID: S0 ~-

JIM: Gary --listen, let me tell you,

David, that Gary did a real good job. He went out here

and, you know, he'sgot all these commanders here.

And, I mean, justbunches of them, and he really went

out on alimb and he just said look, David wantsto

talk to Jim and, and David'sgoing to work with us, but

you've gotto -- he wantsto talkto Jimright now.And so, he, he really went to bat for you. He's agood

guy. It's-# I have a lot of responsibility, just like

you do. You know, a lot of things on my shoulders,

too, and just like you, and I sympathize withyour

position. -

And so-- Gary told methat, you know, if I

came back, that you promised to sendsome kids out.

And, of course, I knewyou would anyway.

DAVID: That was our original agreement

anyway.

5

JIM: Right. Well, I »my reply was hey, I

already know that. I mean, you don't even have to tell

me. The guy isas good as his word and his word is

golden. And I remember -- infact, I thought last

night that, you know, maybe Chrissy and Brian would,

you know, get out after I left. But, hey, that'sokay.

We can, we can do it now. And once Gary got the I

commanders together, I've alreadytold them to set up

the shuttle cars and, you know, get it ready.

I said David wants to do it and that's the

way we'regoing to do it. So, you know, they're

getting the cars ready down there and, you know, just

so we can kind of get together on it. But, listen,

I'm, I'mkind of feeling for you, you know. I know

you've gota big responsibility with allyour people in

there and I'm sureit'sweighing pretty heavy on you.

DAVID: Well, I'm hopingthat what you read

in the Bible last night wasweighing heavyon you.

Jim, I'mgoing to win, okay?

JIM: Yeah. We're allgoing to win.

DAVID: No, we're notall going to win. You

see, if we don'tconfess to, to God that we don't know

something, you know--

JIM: Yeah. -

DAVID: - then we'reintrouble, 'cause,

see, that's the wholething, what the sealsare about.

6

It's a test, a test to every man on earth that

professes godliness.

JIM: Umhum.

DAVID: And, now, you heard those guys last

night on the radio. You heard these teachers and

scholars.

JIM:Um-hum.

DAVID: You hear what their explanations are?

JIM: Oh, yeah.

DAVID: Stutteringand sputteringand theydon't knowwhat they'retalking about. Why don'tthey,

you know, turnit off?

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: Okay. Now, these guys - you're

going to put your soul in the trust of these men that

don't knowwhatthey're doing?

JIM: I'm not going to do that. I'm not

going to do that.

DAVID: Yeah. Well, the thingof itis is

that there are thousands who do. Now, you know, I,

I've gotme agroup of people, right?

JIM:Right.

DAVID: And I've, I'vetaughtthem the first

seal and I taught them the second seal, the third and

the fourth. I explained to them after the fourth seal

things change 'cause, see,there's onlyfour beasts.

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In the first four seals the beast is coming. See, now,

there'sa meaning to that.

JIM: Right.

DAVID: But there is a real meaning to it.

But thefifth seal is a sad thing for the worldbecauseit'sa seal that talks about -- and I beheld when the

lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw underthe altar, the

souls that have been slainfor the word of God and for

the testimony which they held, crying to God, saying

oh, Lord God, how long will not avenge ourblood upon

those who dwell upon the earth?

JIM: Hmmm.

DAVID: You see, someone died 2,000 years ago

so that man can have a chance to learn the truth about

condemnation. Somebody died so that man could admit

they don'tknow what they're doingand they would

listen and learn. And so, when youread the Book of

John, all through the Book of John,Jim --

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: --it's always being said of Christ

that Christ -- I can -myself through nothing, but

that which I receive of my father that I speak, for the

doctrine is not mine, but it'smy father's.See, they

didn't understandthat 2,000 years ago.

JIM: Um-hum. i

DAVID: So, heaven tried to make it a little

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easier this time so that John the Revelator wrote that

when the Gentiles are going to be judged, it's goingto

be based on the same truth the Jews rejected. It's

going to be according to the father giving to his son a

book. So that you can now know the doctrine is not my

own, it'smy father's,you know. I, I do not speak of

myself, but what the father has givenme that I

received.

JIM: Umhum.

DAVID: And so, that'swhy in these symbols

it's soclear that when I come in the volume of the

book that'swritten to me, I have to show you from the

writings of all the prophets what God has already told

them about me. Otherwise, I'm nothing.

JIM: Yeah, I understand.

DAVID: You can't believeflesh and blood,

you have to, you have to pass the test.You have to

stand up to the credentials.

JIM: Um-hum.

DAVID: Now, the fifth seal, you know, in

Isaiah 26, it says we have a strong city. Salvation

will guardour plentiful walls and bulwarks. It says

open you the gatesthat the righteous nation which

keeps thetruth may enter in, cause that will keep him

in perfect peace whosemind hasstayed onme, ohGod,

because hetrusteth in me. It says trust in the Lord,

9

1 for the Lord is everlasting strength. So bringeth down

2 them that dwell on high. Yea, the lofty city, Babylon,

3he'll bring it down, even to the dust, for the feet o

4 the poor and the needy shall trod it underfeet.

S It says let David be showed to the wicked.

6~ Yet, will they not learn righteousness? In the land of

7 uprightness they would deal unjustly, for they would

Bi not behold the majesty of the Lord. Lord, when thy

9 hand is lifted up, they will not see. You know, the

10 father upholds his word, don't he?

11 JIM: Right. _

12 DAVID: But they shall see and then they

13 shallbe ashamed for their anger against thy people.

14 It says Lord, we'vebeen in pain. We've been in pain

15 as a woman in travail. It says we have not wrought any

Ii 16 deliverance inthe earth,neither havethe inhabitants

17 of the world fallen. It says but by dead men shall

18 arise with my dead body. Awake he that dwell in the

19 dust. Then --

20 JIM: David --

121 DAVID: I know it sounds like poetry to you,

i221 doesn't it?

I _23 JIM: No. Listen, I just want to --

24 DAVID: You allare going to kill us.

25 JIM: No, no, no.

} DAVID: Because - now, listen, Jim --

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JIM: We wouldn't do that. We're not going

to do it.

DAVID: Jim, let me explain something. You

know, you know that Ican'tlay here, you know, too

many days before, you know - I mean, the infection's

already in me, okay?

JIM: But, David, we're going to resolve

this.

DAVID; No, let me explain something. You

know, that'swhy I kept telling Gary that, you know,

last night I shared Psalms 89 with you, didn't I?

JIM: Um-hum.

DAVID: You see, inspiration is

for God to tell men the future. The same

created heaven and earth, by his word, is

who foretells the future and brings it to

JIM: Umhum.

the ability

God who

the same God

pass.

DAVID: And so, God forewarns men by sending

prophets, and that's alreadybeen done. But the Jews

would not receive the testimony of those men. Well,

so, finally, the New Testament tells them that now

everybody is responsible. Now all the Gentiles can be

responsible for knowing and believing these truths that

the Jews rejected. So, now we'vecome to the time, you

know. Sevenseals is the big thing nowwe're talkingabout.

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JIM:Right.

DAVID: I cannot consent toyour laws and

your system because my laws and my system is higher.

But don't get me wrong, don't, don't think that I

liberally literally ordeliberately try to break the

laws of the country orthe nationbecause, as I said

before, this nationwas blessed because it, it

vindicated the principles of the Ten Commandments.

JIM:I understand.

DAVID: But what happens is when God's truth

comesintothe world, no man is excused from opening

his eyes and seeing what God of heaven requires. On

the currency of this nation's currency it says,in God

we trust.Okay?

JIM: Um-hum.

DAVID: Now, are we talking about my God that

sits onthe throne? Are we talking about giving toGod

what is God's and giving toCaesar what is Caesar's?

What are we talking about here?

JIM:Yeah.

DAVID: Are wetalking about the god who, who

has seven seals which are a mystery untilthere's time

no longer? Well, that'swhat we'retalking about, Jim.

JIM: Yeah, I understand. ~

DAVID: And now people, they don't,they

don't understandbecause they choose not to.

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JIM; Hey, David, hold on just asecond.

What did you say? Okay. Talking to someone else.! I

hear the kids, are they okay?

DAVID: Who's crying over there? Who's

crying? Who'scrying? Look, I can't-- who'scrying?

Oh, it'sBobby. .

JIM: Bobby? How old --

DAVID: They're just, they're just typical --

JIM: How old's Bobby?

_DAVID: Bobby's -- oh, it's Star?

JIM: Star?

DAVID: Star is three.

JIM: Three. They just hollered atme and

told me the car wasready.

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: 'Andso you might want to just,you

know, start getting the kids ready --

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: -- to, you know, get their coats and --

it's kindof cold out. I'vebeen out and it'sa little

cold and --

DAVID: Well, they've got jackets and we'll

JIM: Get their jackets, yeah.

DAVID: You want usto drive them to the

water tank,right?

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JIM: Yeah. If we could do it, it would --

DAVID: Okay. i

JIM: That'd be the best, I think. Is --

DAVID: Darryl's coming, right? Here, let me

let you talk to Sita.

JIM: Let me try to set thatup, okay?

SITA: Hi, Jim.

JIM: Sita?

SITA: Yes.

JIM: How are you?

SITA= I'mdoing fine. How about you?

JIM: Well, I'm doingfine. Listen, I've

got, I've got the car ready to go, but just let me

check onDarryl, okay?

SITA: Okay. All right.

JIM: I don't knowif he'sgoing to be

available, okay? But let me tellyou this. I won't

send anybody thatI can't vouchfor, okay? Igive you

my word now. I'llsend somebody. It'ssomebody

that'll be just as good, just as trustworthy. Okay?

You can trustme, Sita, now.

SITA: Okay.

JIM: Okay. So -- and I willtell you

beforehand whether it's himor not, but I willscreen

whoevers going togo.

SITA: Okay.

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JIM: Do you understand?

SITA: Yeah.

JIM: Okay. Take your time, a few minutes,

get themready, coat -- it'scold, coats on, you know,

and, and give them some hugs and stuff and -~

SITA

get some extra

JIM:

SITA

JIM:

SITA

JIM:

SITA

number.

JIM:

grandparents?

SITA

JIM:

' SITA

JIM:

SITA:

JIM:

SITA

JIM:

SITA

JIM:

Is it okay, I can bring - they can

clothes for them?

Absolutely, yes, whatever you want

Okay.

Yeah.

Their name is Brian and Scott.Okay. l

And I'll just give you the phone

Okay. The phone number of their

Just a minute. I'm

Go ahead.

Hello?

Yeah, go ahead, Sita.

Scott and Chrissy 5-

Scott and Chrissy.

--Mabb.

Spell that for me. I

MA-B-B.

Okay.

sorry.

S it MAB?

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SITA: And their phone number is 605923- t

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JIM: Okay. All right. You get, you get

them ready and, you know, after --David said that

we're justgoing to, you know, go two by two.

' SITA: Yes.

JIM: So, you get those - them ready. And

then once they go out, you know, you can take a few-

minute break because we'regoing to, you know, in

between. But then you can start, you know, who, who

you want to send out next and, you know, get their

coats and stuff. You know what I mean?

SITA: Yeah. I

JIM: I mean, we'llhave a little time, but,

you know, have somebodyelse kind of maybe help the

kids cause you're busy.You know what I mean. And

it'd beeasier, see, in the daytime.

I SITA: Oh, wait, wait.

DAVID: Hey, Jim.

JIM: Hey, David.

DAVID: We --when we -- we've gotto send

Patron and Jenessa --

JIM: Okay.

DAVID: - because they're,they're, they're

the, they'rethe samebrother andsister of Camaray andLandon.

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JIM: Oh, absolutely. Okay, yeah, that's

great. n

DAVID: I'm sorry about that.

JIM: That's no problem.

DAVID: Listen, Patron's four months old.

JIM: Okay.

DAVID: A car seat and --

JIM: How about if I have a lady agent?

DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: You haven't seen #-

DAVID: You better bring some formula.

JIM: Oh, we'll getsome formula. And the

lady agent, would that help you?

DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: Sita can hand the four-month-old to the

lady agent?

DAVID: Yeah. You know, the old bruiser guys

may not know how to deal with a four-month --

JIM: You know what I'm saying.They're kind

of rough.

DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: Okay,I'll setthat up.And howold'sJenessa?

DAVID: Jenessa, how old is she now?

Talking to someone else.! Five-and-a-half.

JIM: Five, okay.

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DAVID: Oh, she's eight. I'm sorry.

JIM: Make sure they'vegot warm stuff,

David.

DAVID: Yeah, we'll dress them warm.

JIM: Okay. And then maybe you can have

somebody otherthan Sita, after you decide and identify

who the next two are -- Ithink we could do - or Brian

and Chrissy --

DAVID: You already know Sonja.

JIM: Oh, sure. '

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: Yeah, she can get Brian and Chrissy

ready or something.

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: We want them to have time to get their

warm coatsand, and kiss their mom. But, you know, we

want to, like you said, just keep itgoing and --

DAVID: Right.

JIM: And, and I've jumped their bones in

the -- on thecommander's office about that stuff we

had last night.

DAVID: Uh-huh.

JIM: You know, where the car wasn't ready?

DAVID: Yeah. -

JIM: Remember, we had that? Isaid look, I

mean, David'sbeing straight up and you send thiscar

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with no radio and then wecan't call them, you know,

and they'relate, you know. So, I've toldthem you get

all the cars there, that's what David wants, and he'll

send them out. Okay?

DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: All right, Buddy.

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: Patron, four months old, and Jenessa?

DAVID:Patron and Jenessa, yeah.

JIM: Okay. Hey, listen, this is great.

What you'redoing here benefits everyone. This is

tremendous.

DAVID: Well, like I say, there's a little

secret with these children.

JIM: Yeah .

DAVID: There's a ~- you'll see, you'llsee

later. Psalms 8. If you'll readPsalms 8, you'll,

you'll see.

JIM: They're, they're beautiful. And this

is great. Patron and Jenessa want to see their

brothers and sister.

DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: But I went over there this morning and,

and, and Human Services, where they have the children,

and I went over it with them and those are all real

gentle people. And they, they're just real nice and --

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DAVID: Yeah, we know, we know some Of th0Se

ladies.

JIM: And they're taking care of them. S0, I

want you to assure their mothers and stuff. I mean,

they really are safe and dry and happy.

DAVID: Well, have you contacted their --

kin?

JIM: Yeah, we were having that done and, and

Human Services was helping us.And Ihaven'tgotten

word back on that. Listen, we'regoing to bring the

kids over here to me, just like yesterday. Okay?

DAVID: It'S like --

JIM: And putthem on the phone?

DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: Let me --yeah, let me do this, David.

I want to get these cars started and I want to walk out

here to these commanders. I don'twant any glitches.

Okay?

DAVID: Which glitches?

JIM: Well, you know, mistakes where they

didn't hear me.

DAVID: Oh, okay.

JIM: Well, let me see if I can get a car

there for -- wait, hold on justa second.

DAVID: Okay.

' JIM:See if they'll runa car upto the

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water tower and

STEVE

JIM:

STEVE

JIM:

STEVE

voice.

JIM:

I'm sorry--

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notify them. Hey, how'sSteve doing?

Hello?

Steve.

Jim, how you doing?

I'm great,buddy. How are you?

Not bad. I'm gladto hear your

Well, I was kind of worried about you.

STEVE: I, I- you know, Itold Gary we

appreciated him, and we did and everything, but David

definitely wanted to speak with you. He started it and

everything, and we kept on trying and every way

possible, you know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: We'vegot to get

BCHI.

STEVE: SO--

JIM: Yeah. Well, look, I'msorry. Itold

David what happened. And, you know, theytold me I've

got to get some rest.

STEVE = Right .

JIM:

you know.

I knew, I knew some of those agents,

STEVE: Yeah.

JIM:

hospital to see

And, and I wanted to stop by the

some of these otherguys.

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STEVE: Oh, I'm sure.

JIM: And you'll beglad to know that they're

all doing good.

STEVE: Good. Good, I'mglad.

JIM: I mean, they'reall talking, you know.

STEVE: Great.

JIM: And all of the agents feel pretty,

pretty good. They're alltalking and there's no-- I

can tell you there'sno hate in anybody'sheart out

here.

"STEVE: Right.

JIM: And they're justsaying --

STEVE: That'show I felt.

JIM: We talked to them today and I said

listen, you know, thosefolks out there wentthrough

the samething and they're suffering,too, you know.

And theywere all saying -one thing they're all

thrilled about was thesekids getting out.

STEVE: Right. That's good.

JIM: And so, you know, I just gotta just say

I think it's great.And I'msorry I was late.

STEVE: That's,that's okay.

JIM: But I went by Human Services --

STEVE: Yeah.

- JIM: --and I wanted to see how the kids

were doing.

22

STEVE: Right .

JIM: And that's allsquared up, so -e

STEVE: Good.

JIM: --you can tell the moms that.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: What happened was, Gary went out on a

limb here. He got, he got out with these commanders,

man. He, he made a big stink, you know.'

STEVE: He did, huh?

JIM: He said man, you know, we're tryingto

work this out, and he says I'm tryingto work with

David andSteve and,you know,he saystheseguys are,

are not, you know,tricking us, they're keepingtheir

word and,and said,you know,I wantyou toget Jimover here and all that stuff. I

STEVE: Right.

JIM: Again, he went out on a limb for you.

STEVE: I, I believe it.

JIM: Yeah.

STEVE: I, Itold him Ireally had a, you

know,a greatappreciation for, you know, his-- I told

him don'tbe offendedor, or --it'snothing against

yourself and, you know,David wanted-- he started

talking withyou andhe likedthe rapport. And you'rean awesome listener.

JIM: well, listen, you know, it'shard for

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me to be here all the time, and that's whyGary, you

know, or somebody else -- you know, I didn't wantto .

give you anybody to talk to that I didn'ttrust 1,000

percent.

STEVE: Right.

JIM:And, and I think the proof'sin the

pudding when he goes out and --

STEVE: I'm sure.

JIM: -- battles thosecommanders. You know,

they'll probablybust him two ranks when this isover.

STEVE: David just said to me because of the

wayyou'vebeen, you know, in Isaiah 55:3 it sayshear

and thy soul shall live. And, I mean, that'sthe,

that'sthemain -- there'sone of the main keys right

there.

JIM: Yeah. Well,how, how are you feeling?

Are you okay?

STEVE: Yes, yes.

JIM: Did you get any rest?

STEVE: By the way, yes -- but, no, I didn't.

I laid down for abouta half hour. I couldn't sleep.

I, I tried to acouple times, but the phonewas ringingand --

JIM: Yeah.

STEVE: One thing that,you know, hewas

disappointed andIwas that all lines werecut off and

we weren'table to -- the one thing Iguess we wanted

-- a lot of these want him to reply and he can t

now You know, there'sa number of challenges on the

radio back to him.

JIM: Yeah.

STEVE: And Iwas wondering lfwhat would

the --Jim, what do you think, what would be the

possibility --

JIM: I'msorry, wait They're hollering

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: Wait aminute The car, the car

movingOkay. Allright

STEVE: Not past thewater tower now

don'twantanything past the water tower

JIM: Okay, I'm sorry

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: Tellme

STEVE: Yeah?

one thing

JIM: Is he stillbleeding a lot

STEVE: No, he's not No he'snot

JIM: Okay. You've got-- do you -- look, I

know Iasked you thisyesterday

STEVE: Yeah.

JIM: And you've got-- Imean, yesterday was

a bad day for all of us

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sure

weak

he's

been

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STEVE: Right.

JIM:

STEVE

JIM:

STEVE

.appreciate it.

JIM:

know.

STEVE

JIM:

STEVE

JIM:

STEVE:

JIM:

But Ican arrange to send you in Some

.c1ean gauze pads and, and, and, you know --

: We'vegot plenty of that.

Are you sure?

: Oh, yeah, yeah. But I definitely

We could just hand it off to Sita, you

We have a lot. '

Okay.

Believe me, we do.

All right. I just, just want to make

Yeah.

--because he's, youknow, he sounded

to me today and I --

STEVE: Well, he was, you know, the

not really sleptthe entire day or night

talking and talking, so he's realhoarse

know, just -- I tell you what, I was so tired

hours ago, but it seems like I've reboundeda

truthis

and he's

and, you

a couple

little

bit. I don'tkhnow w y, you know, lacking sleep, but,

out of it.

yeah, we'retrying to still, you know, make the best

JIM: Hold on, Steve. Excuse me. Okay,

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yeah. Is Sita there? Well, tell David, you can just

tell him for me -- '

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: -- he's gotthe four-month-old

Patron --

STEVE: Right.

JIM: -- and I'vetold him I was going to try

to get alady agent to, to help with her, but I don't

have one.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: Okay? So, I told the commander to come

in and get me an agent who was kind of gentle, you

know.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: Okay? And this little baby, you

know --

STEVE: Right.

JIM: -- has got to be --

STEVE: Little baby --

JIM: -- handled with kid gloves.

STEVE: He was saying that they don't havea

female like they hope, but he wanted -- he asked for

the most gentle man there. He'ssmiling.

JIM: Huh?

STEVE: He says tell them to send Gary.

JIM: Yeah. Well, that'sright. But,

0 v2'7

anyway, we'll take care of that.

STEVE

JIM:

STEVE

JIM:

STEVE

right now, Sita

JIM:

STEVE

that already or

Okay.

The car is at the water tower.

It's there now?

It's there now.

Okay, the car is at the water tower

She's ready.

Okay.

And you have the agent and -- all

-- or you just want to -okay, I guess

you've gotthe paper all ready.

JIM: Okay.

' STEVE:Okay. And, plus, I guess she'll be

handing the addresses off.

JIM: Yeah, that'd be great. Sure.

STEVE:Yeah.

JIM: And we'llhave them come over here and

let them talk to you.

STEVE: Right. Okay, good. So, you'reable

to call through here, of course?

JIM: I tell you, Steve --

STEVE: Yeah?

JIM: -- it'sunbelievable out here. I mean,

you've got,you've gotevery reporter in captivity out

here.

STEVE: I believe it.

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JIM: And, you know, there's just people

everywhere and, you know, it's evenhard -- you know

how many times we got cut off yesterday.

STEVE: Right.

_JIM: Remember when all that stuff --

STEVE: Well, that was the telephone. I

mean, right up until now, we tried everything. We had

a number of cords, you know, like with those stupid

little connectors in between, and somebodywould step

on the thing. "

JIM: Yeah.

STEVE: Then we'd haveto have somebody go

find out where it was loose. And that happened right

through until -- through the middle of the night even.

JIM: Yeah.

STEVE: Got to be -- and, finally, we just

says well, look, don'twe have one cord that'1l doall

of this? And, finally, we did and this is why we got

something clear now.

JIM: Well, the technology.

STEVE: It seems like we're missingthere a

little bit.

JIM: David said that --

STEVE: David, David's sayingsomething.

Just a minute.

JIM: All right.

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STEVE: Yeah, hesays if you couldbring a

decent telephone and 150 feet of cord, that we'll pay

for it even.

JIM: Oh, no, I wouldn't askyou to do that.

I think we'd need a lot more cord than that.

STEVE: Even this one here --

JIM: Oh, oh, that's what you want?

STEVE: Yeah, yeah.

JIM: Okay. We can probably arrange it.

STEVE: Just stop by Radio Shack or anything,

you know, we'd morethan be happy to pay for it.

JIM: Oh. Let me see what I can --

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: -- check on for that. Maybe we can do

that.

STEVE: Thisthing here, Imean --

JIM: That's the one -- what isit, isit

like a Princess phone or something?

STEVE: Actually, the one we've gothere, it

says Bell SouthProducts and it's, it's beenused alot

and I think it'sbeen dropped and Ithink that'spart

of the problem.

JIM: That'swhy it kept cutting off

yesterday?

STEVE: Yeah. I didn't know if it was

30

half the phone, and I knew the connection, too, because

I sawpeople stepping on the cord and then all of a

sudden it'dbe gone and --

JIM: Where've you got it, in thehallway or

something?

STEVE: Yeah. Well, right now I'min the

hallway because, you know, I'm, I'mtrying to --

David's here, justoff to theside over hereinto the

room. So --

JIM: Okay. Hold on one second.

STEVE: Yeah.

JIM: I want to check on the telephone. Pass

thaton to the commander, I'll talk to him abouta

telephone later. Okay, I'll just-- I've gotto run

thatthrough the commanders.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: Well, I'msure-- well, we'll talk

aboutit, okay?

STEVE: Okay. You wantto call me back then

later?

JIM: Well, yeah. IsSita going outnow?

STEVE: Yes.

JIM: Okay. Why don'tyou -- why don'twe

hold on justtill she walks out the drive -- once she

hooks upwith the kids, just herein a minutewith the

agent, then wecan -- I can stop. And thenDavid said

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92 , 2after the other.

3

4STEVE:

5 JIM:

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10 Scott or Brian.

11 then we'll have

12 me, you know --

13 STEVE

14 JIM:F

K15 them.

. 16 STEVE:

17 JIM:

18 STEVE:

19 JIM:

20 okay?

21 STEVE:

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,2:-x

I24, STEVE:

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JIM:

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31

he wanted you to, you know, do this one-two, you knvw,

So, Sita said she was going to get

Sonja to get the other two kids ready.

Okay, good.

And then so after we bring - once we

hook up on the road --

Right.

- then, then you and I will break and

then you'll,you'll identify I think it's Chrissy and

And you'llbring coats and stuff and

the other children brought over here to

Okay.

- so you can, of course, speak to

Right.

Or their mom can.

Okay.

And, you know, and then we'llget back,

Right. Okay.

Things are going real good and I just

lwant it to continue that way.

Yes. Well, that's whatwe want, too,

so I'm sure it can.

Steve, how many cars am I going to need

,

32

to lineup? I mean, about the children. How many have

we got left, can you tellme?

STEVE: How many cars are you going to need

to lineup to get all the children out that are left

Talking to someone else.! He says he'll[gap] little

by little. He's smiling.

JIM:

STEVE

JIM:

STEVE

JIM:

delay.

STEVE

it's,it's,you

'JIM:

'STEVE

JIM:

STEVE

talk to you.

JIM:

STEVE

JIM:

DAVID:

JIM:

DAVID

what I'msaying?

Oh, okay.

We'llhave to keep doing it that way.

That's fine.

Yeah.

I'm, I'm just, I'm just trying to avoid

I know, I understand, but for us

know --

No, that'sall right.

Yeah.

That's great. Those, those kids --

Okay, just a minute. He wants to

Oh, sure.

Here he is.

All right.

Jim.

David. ~

Jim, see,I'm on you guys side, see

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JIM: Right, you are.

~ DAVID: So, it'slike this. There's alot of

people here, right?

JIM: Right.

DAVID: And you all think that they believe

in me, right?

JIM: Right.

DAVID: But, like it says in theGospel, he

that believeth in me believeth not in me, but believeth

min him that sent me.

JIM: Um-hum.

DAVID: Okay?

JIM: Um-hum.

' DAVID: Inother words, we cannot receive the

seal by accepting anyman's flesh.We haveto accept

the word,what's writtenin the book. So,the thingofit is is like this. Every, every, youknow, theslower

we makethis, you understand whatI'm saying?

JIM: Umhum.

DAVID: Themore timeit gives the people

here to makea decision, you know.So, youknow, you just may see a few adults comeout, too. '

JIM: Yeah. Oh, yeah, of course.

DAVID: You see what I'm saying?

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: Causethese peopleare facing

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1 34

realities that, you know, what they'relearned in the

Prophecies is one thing, but now they're facing'

reality.

JIM: David, you're, you're,you're awise -

man and --

DAVID: Well, what I'msaying is this. I'm

saying that, you know, you know, if I go, then, then I

won't bearound no more.

JIM: Well, listen --

DAVID: And let me say something.

JIM: Okay.

DAVID: Cause, you know, I cannot save any

person that respects meas aperson. There's atruth,

you know, cause we'reall equal in the flesh. Flesh

and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God.

JIM: Right.

DAVID: So, you know, once I'mout of the

way, the people are going to have nothing to look tobut what?

JIM: The seven seals?

DAVID: What they believe, you see. So

that's whyI don'twant nomedical attention,you know.

That's whyI'm layingherein a big oldpool ofblood.well, it's dried up now. ~

JIM: I wish you'd take some medical care.

DAVID: Well --

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JIM: I'dlike to be the one to help you get

it. ~

DAVID: I wish, Iwish I'd gottenshot in the

head.

JIM: Oh, David, don'tsay that.

DAVID: Well, here's thedeal, because, you

see, the truth of the word, that's whatthe real

Messiah is.

JIM: Right .

DAVID: You know, Moses is not the Messiah,

and Elijah'snot, you know. Not even the body of

Christ, you know. All men, nomatter what they maybe

with the gift of God, they are vanity. And that'swhy,

you see, when you see even Christ on the cross, you see

that, that God allows men to suffer greatly sometimes,

and that'swhy the spirit of Christ, which is the V

spirit of all mankind, the spirit of Christ is the

spirit of truth. It's not just one man. It's from

Adam all the way to the end, all those who believe in

God andGod's truth.So, so if I'manything -- are you

there, Jim?

JIM: They're hollering at me. Wait a

minute. Where'sthe car? Talking to someone else.!'

Okay. The car's atthe water tower. -

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: Are the kids --

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DAVID: The kids are on their way, right?

JIM: The kids are on the way. It's a white

car at the water tower.

DAVID: Okay, it's.a white car. They're on

their way. Okay.

JIM: Okay, they're -the commander passed

on they'regoing to send a white car each time.

DAVID: Okay, it's goingto be a white car.

JIM: Right.

DAVID: With a radio in it, right?

JIM; With a radio in it.

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: Yes.

DAVID: So, see, see, what I'vealways done

is I'venever --I never professed tobe anything.

except what the word of God says that I show. Now,

see, that way whenI'm nolonger around, them people

are going to be on their own.

JIM: Right.

DAVID: See? That way they are free,without

any human hindrances to make theirdecisions with their

own mind and their own spirit. And that's,that's,

that's aboutas best as a man can do, isn'tit? I

mean, truth is truth, and if we, if we don'twalk in

the truth that we have, then we have to deal with our

own selves, don't we?

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37

JIM: Um-hum.

DAVID: Okay. So, I'll talk to you more

about this, okay?

JIM: Yeah, okay.

DAVID: Here comes the babies and --

JIM: They're coming out?

DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: Are they wrapped up warm?

DAVID: Yeah, they're, they'rewrapped up

warm. Hey, Steve, Patron's got plenty of diapers,

don't he?They, they'veleft, haven'tthey? Have they

left? Okay, they left.

JIM: Theyleft? Okay. I DAVID: Yeah. Okay, the next, the next two

children that I send out, I'mgoing to send some money

with them so you can, you know, get some stuff that you

need for them and also --

JIM: David, you don'tneed to do it, buddy.

DAVID: Look --

JIM: Don't-- listen, we're takingcare of

these children.

DAVID: This is -- I know.

JIM: You don't haveto worry about that a

bit. _ »

DAVID: These are our children, remember.

JIM: Listen, it's --

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DAVID: We ain't nocheapskates.

JIM: It's great to see things going this

way. I mean, I'm telling you, there's people out here

saying man, you know, this is, this is some guy in here

that's reallydoing this kind of thing. That'swhat,

you know, everybody's saying. And the sheriff, I

talked to him two or three times today on the phone and

he was asking about you and --

DAVID: Harwell or Thorn or --

JIM: Yeah, Thorn. Yeah.

DAVID: Oh, I like that man.

JIM: And he was telling me that, Jim, you

know, just talk to David and let's, youknow, get him

to work with us some more and that you are a true man

of God and --

DAVID: Well --

JIM: -- you know, that kind of stuff. I

mean, he'sa good, good guy and --

DAVID: We just know that I'm-- all we know

now is I just keep rattling my head about seven seals.

JIM: Yeah. A

DAVID: And only God'sgood. But, like I

say, you know, I understand that, you know, by all

means, it'sa cultic situation, it's -- obviously,

there's oneguy in charge, you know, and --

JIM: Well, there's people,there's people

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out here saying that, that David Koresh is a gentle man

and, and it just really -- l

DAVID: I don't pushmyself on anybody,that's for sure.

JIM: They're just, Imean, you're just

giving themasign with these children comingout. You

know, I just don't believe --

DAVID: Okay, one moment.

JIM: Okay.

DAVID: Haveyou all left yet? Oh. Where,

where'd youleave themlast? Whered you leavethe

keys atlast? Well, you gocheck withWayne. Talkingto someoneelse.! We'refinding the keys now.

JIM: That'sokay. _ DAVID: Well, here, let me -- wait a second.

Tell the guys we'recoming. Oh, these stupid Levi501's. Itell you. l '

JIM: Oh, man, I'mso --

DAVID: They'rekind of, they're kind

of -- well, it'sgood it'skind of tight cause they

keep circulation. Okay. Sita. Sita. Sita.' Pause!

JIM: David.

DAVID: Jim --

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: -- I'm, I'mputting my trust in you

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now. I'msending this money with Sita. Get that phone

cord and, you know, it could be, you know, the second

or third --'causewe have alot of trouble with our

lines. And if those kids need anything, you know, just

-- especially, you know, if you can get some goat's

milk for the baby, you know --

JIM: Okay.

DAVID: ~ and a little bit of honey.

JIM: Okay .

DAVID: See, we feed our kids very good food,

you know, and that formula's gottoo much carbohydrate

in it and it'sgot too much sugar, glucose. It'snot

really good for the temperaments of young babies.

- JIM: I understand.

DAVID: Whose the name of the man we get our

goat milk from? Huh? Can we send some goat milk then?

Okay, we'regoing to send some frozen goat milk.

JIM: Okay.

DAVID: Okay. And okay. Well, we'llsend

them someand they can thaw itout. Talking to

someone else.! And, see, goat milk'scoagulates more

like humanmilk. Anyway,no, nohealth lecturerightnow, okay? But we'regoing to send it to you.

JIM: Okay.

DAVID: They --we'll be down there in a

second.

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JIM: Okay. No problem, take your time. I

mean, Iknow you're doingit.

DAVID: Goahead and-- okay. _ JIM: Are they, are they coming? ~

DAVID: Yeah. Looking for the key or gettingthe goat milk and --

JIM: Yeah, okay, take your time. We're,

we're ready.That's noproblem. Hey, you know,alot

of things to get ready, you know. You know, youand I

have lost alot in the last day, you know. '

DAVID: Huh?

JIM: Isaid we've losta lot yesterday, you

know, some friends and people we knew.

DAVID: Yeah. A bad thing happened

yesterday.

JIM: But the great thing is we're resolving

it and we're tryingto work it out, you know, and -~

DAVID: Wish we could have done it you

know, Idid everything, I did everything Icould with

that Robert.

JIM: Iknow.

DAVID: But, you know, if you ever get a

chance to talk to Robert, ask him, say, Robert, what

did the guy show you out of the book?

JIM: Yeah, okay. It's nice to see that

things are going goodand we're just going to try to

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make it work, you know. I, I know Steve feels good and

he workedreal hard to try to resolve it, you know, and

get some of these kids out.

DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: Sita's just really great, I'vegot to

tell you.

DAVID: She's --

JIM: She's great.

DAVID: Yeah, Ihave a lot of people come

here and, like Isay, you know,the, the, the truth,

you know,if you could haveever metthese people,you

know, they'rethe best people in all the world.

JIM: Yeah. That thing'sstarting to bother

you, isn't it?

DAVID: What's that?

JIM: Your wound. It'sstarting -- is it

sore?

DAVID: Idon'tknow, it'salways sore, yeah.

You know,it's --Ihave to have someone pickup my

legs every once in a while and move them.

JIM: David, you told me yesterday it went in

at your lower abdomen there?

DAVID: Yeah, right around close to the belly

button and went out and hit -- it looked like the

pelvic -- feels like itcracked my -- you know,thatbone that --

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JIM: Yeah, that pelvic bone?

DAVID:

your hips?

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID:

JIM: Right.

DAVID: My rear, you know.

JIM: Oh, man. Where else did

- DAVID: Then I got hit over on

side. Then there's a-- I got hit right

wrist. Took achunk out of my wrist and

I'm lookingat it right now. That blood

than black.

JIM: Did you get that to stop

your wrist?

43

Yeah, you know, the two bones on like

Then it came out my back.

you get hit?

the other

here inmy, my

it's just --

turns blacker

bleeding on

DAVID: Oh, yeah. Yeah, it stopped bleeding.

And the woundsinthe back just -- I don'tknow, they

just -- they ooze and then they stop and

again. It's just, you know --

JIM: Yeah. Mmmm. Are you in

position? If there is one, huh?

they ooze

a comfortable

DAVID: Something like that. It's hardto

explain.

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: You know, I kind of cried when I

looked outthe windowand sawall those ATF agentsup

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on the roof.

~JIM: I appreciate you saying that.

DAVID: Well - .

JIM: I'llpass that on to the guys. I meanit.

DAVID: It shouldn't havehappened, Jim.

JIM: I know it. Iknow. I'll passthat on

to them.

DAVID: What can I say, you know?

JIM: Hey, Itold Steve that, you know, I

went bythe hospital and that'skind of what heldme

up, you know, someof that stuff, and I saw a lot of

those guys.And, youknow, they'reall doing good and

they're ingood spiritsand, youknow, they'redoingfine and there's noanimosity in their hearts or

anything. And I told them --

DAVID: Jim, they, they don't knowme. Any

time, anytime -- cause theyknowIdidn'tdo it, but,

in a way, youknow, it'smyresponsibility, you

understand. But the thing of it is is that in the

mindsof men there's just two sides, their sides. And

those guyssit together and theydrink coffee together

and theypractice together,they putbuddies together,theymaydrink a beer together. You know,.there's a

bond there.And theycame downhere doingtheir joband theydidn't havea clear picture, you know, and,

|§

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and theycame outto do their job and, andthey didn't,

you know, they didn'tknow how to listen to me.-

You know, I was trying to tell them to, you

know, to get back away, you know.

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: There'schildren and women and

children. But, you know,Jim, see, I've gotan

intuition. The prophets of old had visions, didn't

they?

JIM: Yeah. '

DAVID: So, you know, you know, the

boy -- your guys didn't haveachance.

JIM: David, that sounds like it'sreally

hurting you.

DAVID: We-- he knew thatyou werecoming.

I told Robert, I said look, I said they're coming.I

told Robert that.

JIM: Yeah.-

DAVID: Theywere nowherein sight as of yet.

And Robertsat right there lookingat me, and I tried

to look him straight in the eye. You know, I thought

at least what hewould dois tell the guys, you know,

hey, let's,let's slowup abit. -

JIM: Yeah. ~

DAVID: But, no, he went overand hehad to

go back and park his Blazer over there off of the

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corner and all.You know, it didn't haveto happen

this way. H

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: You know, you know, the reason why

you've gotarms is a show of arms, you know, to tell

the bad guys look --

JIM: Hold it. Wait a minute.All right,

just a minute.Hey, I'm sorry,David. They'reaskingme did Sita leaveyet.

DAVID: Has Sita left yet? Hey. Hey.

Hello. I can'tholler, you know. Has Sita leftyet?

Well,get another car then.Unidentified female voice

inbackground indiscernible.!

JIM: Can they just walk out?

DAVID: They, they -- to, to walkall thewaydown to the-- u

JIM: Well, Imean, if she has a problem

getting a car or something, tellme and, you know,

maybe we can move upa little further,if that's --

DAVID: Well, I --

JIM: ButI'd ratherdo it likethis, if we

could.

DAVID: Yeah.That way for sure,you know --

let'ssee, is the white truckout there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALEVOICE: Is the white

truckout there?

DAVID

car.

JIM: I

wherever you want

DAVID

47

Just any, just any car. Just any

guarantee they're safe conduct to I

to drive them.

Who took the keys? Yeah. Okay, take

Misty's car. Okay, Jim.

JIM: Yeah?

DAVID: This is adifferent car. It's brown,

it's kind

JIM:

DAVID

JIM:

DAVID

JIM:

DAVID

JIM:

DAVID:

JIM:

DAVID

JIM:

for.

DAVID:

right? They've

of shot up a bit.

A, a littlebrown car?

Yeah.

What kind is it, a Chevy or what?

What kind is it? A Ford Escort.

Ford Escort, okay.

S0 --

Ford Escort, brown, small?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, it's real small.

All right, we'll tell them what to look

And they'vegot the keys to that,

got the keys to it, right? Where's

Chanel? Where'sChanel? Isshe taking care of her?

Okay. Please startthem. Start them. Start them.

That's onething, you know, about kids. You know,

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they're so eager to think and --

JIM: So innocent, aren't they?

DAVID: Yeah. They're justsmiling

and I love babies, Jim.

JIM: Yeah. Well, I know you're atrue man

of God to say that. You love those kids.

DAVID: Well, that's onething they always

try to get me on is child abuse, but I don't--

JIM: How could that be?

DAVID: See, what happens is is that --

JIM: How could that be? A man that would do

this for children? How could that be possible?

DAVID: Well, Jim, you see, the way the devil

works, if he can'tget, if he can'tget around the

truth, he'sgot to resort to lies. You see? Now, for

instance, like, like Robin Bonds. You'veheard of

Robin bonds?

JIM: Robin Bonds. I'm not sure I have.

DAVID: She'sone of the girls that left a

message, okay? Now, she, she has a little boy of mine

named Wisdom, you see?

started.

JIM: Right.

DAVID: Let me, let me tell you how thisall

JIM: All right.

DAVID: Okay? I came here in 1981, okay?

II

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49

JIM: Um-hum.

DAVID: To this place. And there was a woman

here named Lois Roden.I:-I.

JIM: Right.

DAVID: And what happened was is I came here

and the people treated me good and, and Lois, you know,

she was, she was a prophetess and her mission was she

was trying to teach the world thatthe image of God is

male andfemale, youknow, whichis not a popular

doctrine amongst your Evangelicals.

JIM: Um-hum.

DAVID: And so what happens is is that she

came and I started teaching people things and people

began to say, you know, like wow, how does this young

man know all these things? So, I began to open up some

prophecies and intrigued Lois. And so in the

prophecies it talks about a sign, it talks about --

End of Tape #6!

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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURYBUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS

TAPE #7

3/1/93

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2

DAVID: -- was too old, right?

JIM: Right.

DAVID: Okay, God had promised, hadn't he?

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: Well, who do you think was the one ~-

JIM: Hey, David, waitone second. I'msorry

to interrupt you. Has Sita already left?

DAVID: Sita left? Sita left? Go check and

see, make sure Sita'sleft. We'vegot to get this

underway. Well, anyway, we'rechecking on that now.

JIM: Okay.

DAVID: Anyway, Lois got pregnant and guess

who got the blame, Jim?

JIM: Who?

DAVID: Me. Now, this shows you how human

beings think, okay?

JIM: Um-hum.

DAVID: First of all, here I was 22, 23 years

old, and here I am giving Lois and allthese people

studies about the power of God and the mystery of

divinity. And Lois gets pregnant.. Okay, now,what

happened was that alot of people rose up. There was

originally branches. It was reallyDavidians, right?

JIM: Um-hum.

DAVID: And they accused me of going to bed

with her and they accused her of going to bed with me.

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And this woman wasvery homelyand 70years old. Youknow what I mean?

JIM: Yeah. Yeah, I do.

DAVID: And so what happened was is that I

said now!listen, there'satruth you've gotto deal

with here. I says your accusationsagainst me,let's

evaluate this. I says what if I did go to bed with

her? And she hasconceived achild, and she doesn't

even haveany seed.I saysyou better watchout your

accusations. Outof oneside ofyourmouthyousay youbelieve in God, thatGod createda child in the womb<of

Sarah. Onthe otherside of yourmouthyou'resaying

that if you're Loisyour a prophet Indiscernible! it

has tobe fromme thatsomebody's beendoing naughtystuff. Okay?

JIM: Um-hum.

DAVID: They'recrazy, aren'tthey?

JIM: Um-hum.

DAVID: Youknow,amiracle would take place

if a 70~year-old womancould havea baby, wouldn't it?

JIM: Right. I, I guess so, yeah.

DAVID: See? Well, no one should have blamed

me._ Onthe contrary, they should have prayedto God.

Okay. So what happenedwas all hell broke loose, and

hat's when George Rodengot into the scene.

JIM: Right.

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4

DAVID: And he came in and he's wavingaround

a.357 Reuger, aNighthawk or aMagnum. And he was

telling people he was going to blow my balls off andhe

was going to, youknow, all this kind of stuff.

AJIM: Hey, David?

DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: They got the kids andthey're on the

way. So, go ahead and get your next two.

DAVID: Okie doke.

JIM: And I think you said it was Scott and

Chrissy?

DAVID: Okay. So, that'sScott and Chrissy

now? Scott and Chrissy? Jim, could you do us afavor?

JIM: Sure.What doyou need?

DAVID: Could you get ourline open again to

where wecould call the radiostation again?

JIM: I, Ican see, David.

DAVID: They shut usoff.

JIM: Yeah. I'll tell you, I'llbe straight

up with you. I, I can see, but Idon'thold thatmuch

hope because there'sso much, you know, the commanders

have to work on it. I'll tell you, there'sabillion

reporters out here. I mean, Ithink they've gotevery

phone line tiedup plus, a lot of times, you know --

DAVID: What'shappened isthey just, they

just disconnected our line towhere we canonly call

AE112

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you.

JIM: Yeah. Okay.

DAVID: So, you know --

JIM: Well, I'll see what I can do. I'll

give youwan honest word. I'll seewhat Ican do, but -

DAVID: Are they still going to play that

message?

JIM: What message? Oh, yeah, play the

message on the radio station?

DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: Yeah. Okay, let me, let me get that

taken care of.

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: Is Phil out there Indiscernible!? If

Ineed him, I'llsend him in. Yeah, okay. Talking to

someone else.! The problem with the telephone, David,

is like this is really a normal procedure, you know, to

keep a -- keep the lifeline going, you know, between

you andme. .

DAVID: Yeah, but our other lines have been

cut off.

JIM: Oh, okay. Yeah, Iunderstand. I

understand. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me see if --

David.

DAVID: Yeah?

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JIM: Hold on just a second.

DAVID: Where'smy --where's little Koresh

at?

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: You'vegot all

four kids.in that house?

JIM: No, I've gottwo kids.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: --transition.

Unidentified voices in background not discernible.!

JIM: Hey, David.

DAVID: Huh?

JIM: I need youto help me out on this.

DAVID: Go ahead.

JIM: Okay. The commanders got, got the two

kids and they want to change this room I'm in.You

know, I'vegot to move becauseI'min this little bitty

roomand I don'thave any room,and I've gotall these

people in here. And so what they wanted me to do is

move across the way. I'm outat the airport. You know

where the airport is?

DAVID: Right, yeah.

JIM: And they want me to move across to this

other building where there'smore room, you know, and

it'll be quiet.

DAVID: What'syour number? .

JIM: They'll do -- I'll call you with it and

tell you, you know, no problem. But what I'd liketo

,

11

7

do before we take a break is just to, you know, get

those other two kids ready and, you know, send another

car and get that. And then maybe we could take a

little break, and then once I get to the new place,

I'll get back with you.

DAVID: Okay. Are they going to -- well,

like you say, then when the next car comes, can they,

can they bring us in new lines so we don'tget cut off

as much?

JIM: Yeah, I'm workingon that. I'm working

on that. Yeah, I want to work on it. I'll see what I

can do for you.

DAVID: Okay. Now, now, now, now, remember,

I gave $1,000 to those guys, and I want you to get what

$1,000.

JIM: Oh, hey, don'tworry about it.

DAVID: Jim, you've gotto -- I'm serious.

JIM: Hey,let megive - you gota pencil?

I'm goingto give you this new phone number.

DAVID: Okay. Hey, Rach, Rachel, could you

take a, take a note pad and a piece of paper? I'vegot

a number for you? Where's thepencil?

JIM: Unidentified male voice in background

not discernible.! Really? -

DAVID: Where'sthe pad with --do you see

it?

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JIM: Can we work that, we can help?

Talking to someone else.!

DAVID: Did you get the -- okay, here you

are, take -- put iton that there -- put iton that

pad. Talking to someone else.! What is itnow, Jim?

JIM: It's 799 --

DAVID: Seven nine nine --

JIM: -- 0545.

DAVID: -- oh five four five.

JIM: Okay?

DAVID: Seven nine nine --

JIM:Oh five four five.

DAVID: -- oh five four five.

JIM:Now, I'll call you first, okay? And

so -- until we know it'sclear.

DAVID: Okay. All right.

JIM: We'regoing to send the other car to

the water tower.

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: Okay, so, can you get Scott and

Chrissy?

DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: Cause what I don't wantto happen is

they're switchingmy room and we'reinthe middle of --

and the kids, you know, cause I've gotto kind of, you

know, get off for a few minutes.

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DAVID: Okay, will do.

JIM: So tell --

DAVID: Call me up as soon

there.

»JIM: Yeah, but let's hang

these other two kids in the car, and

we'll getoff, okay? Cause - yeah.

Who have you got there, Sonja?

DAVID: Probably. They're

JIM: Oh, Sita's not back?

DAVID: No.

9

as the car gets

on until we get

then we'll, then

You've got -~

not back yet.

JIM: Okay. All right, let, let, let me, let

me call you in aminute.

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: I need to, I need to work this out with

the commanders 'cause I,I wantto, you know, I want

Indiscernible! kids in the driveway

ought to talk,you know.

and you and me

DAVID: Kids in the driveway?

JIM: I mean I don'twant that to happen.

You knowwhatI'm saying? I don't.wantSita walking

down the driveway and we're noton the phone.

DAVID: Oh, okay.

JIM: You know what I mean

DAVID: Okay.'

JIM: And we have the two children. They're

~

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10

on their way here safely, okay?

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: And I'll just --we'll just break of

for a few minutes ~

w DAVID: Okay.

JIM: - then I'll get back with you.

DAVID: Okay. Bye, Jim.

JIM: Okay, Buddy, I'll see you.

1' i* 1'

JIM: Do we have transportation over there?

Do we have transportation to --no, we're goingto get

them over two kids out first, aren't we?

DAVID: Good afternoon. May I help you?

Hello?

1' ii i

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Hello?

JIM: Hello, Yvette?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Huh?

JIM: This is Jim.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Okay, wait one

moment. Do you want to speak to David?

JIM: Yeah, please.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Okay.

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: How you doing, Buddy?

DAVID: It's a miracle.

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11

JIM: Have you got those other kids ready?

DAVID: Are the kids ready? Chrissy and

who's next?Chrissy and Scott. l

JIM: Chrissy and Scott, yeah.

»DAVID: Got to - were you calling from the

new number?

JIM: No, not yet. I'm goingto get -- move

over there in a few minutes. Iwanted to get this done

first.

DAVID: Are they sending -~ oh. Are they

playing the message on the radio? Unidentified male

voice in background not discernible.!

JIM: He'stalking to one of his buds, asked

him if theyplayed the message on the radio.

Unidentified male voice in background not

discernible.! Yeah, yeah. Could you tell me what time

they're going to do the movement, so Ican tell him --


discernible.! .0kay.

DAVID: Who? What? My grandmother? Turn.it

on.

JIM: He thinks his grandmother is on the

radio or the TV or something.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE VOICE: Yeah. ~

DAVID: Did you hear that, Jim?

JIM: No, I didn't, David.

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DAVID: My grandmother is on an interview.

JIM: Where?

DAVID: I'mtrying to get the details. I was

always told by my family that, thatI'm kind of

strangeg

JIM: Where'syour grandmother live?

DAVID: She lives down in Chandler.

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: Chandler'sclose to Tyler.

JIM: Yeah, yeah, Iknow where it is. That's

pretty country over there.

DAVID: Oh, yeah. I love that country. I

used to fish on Lake Tyler --

JIM: Oh, did you? Yeah. They'vegot a

little train runs down that way.

DAVID: How do you spell your last name

again, Jim?

JIM: C-A-V -- C-AV --

DAVID: All right, just a second. C --

JIM: --A-V --

DAVID: Wait a minute. The pen just died on

me. Looks like a brand-new one, too.

JIM: Hmmmm.

DAVID: Canyou all give me another pen,

please? Sherry, try to get this to write. I need --

Sherry? Sherry'snot behindme, is she? Oh,okay

p

92

she's-- yeah,yeah. C-A-V? C-A-V?

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: I'llconnect it

off.

JIM: David?

- DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: Did you get your pencil?

DAVID: Yeah. C-A --

JIM: CAV-AN-A-U-G-H.

DAVID: A-N --

JIM: A-U -C-A-V-A-NA-U-G-H.

DAVID: -- AU-G-H. Okie doke.

JIM: Is she getting the kids ready?

DAVID:

yet?

Pause!

Yeah. Are tho

JIM: David?

DAVID: Yeah.

se other kids there

JIM: Are you okay, Buddy?

DAVID:

y JIM:I

Are thekids -- I

DAVID:

JIM: I

DAVID:

some noise?

Yeah, I'mall right.

just heard you

don't hear the

You don't hear

don't hear the

Oh, well, you

groan a little bit.

kids.

the what?

kids.

all kids want to make

JIM: Laughing! That's usuallynot a

92 92.

14

problem, kids making noise.

DAVID: Oh, there's babies all in here,

hollering. I keep looking atthem the last, last time

_JIM: Yeah. You'll see them again.

ADAVID: Oh, I know. I promise.

JIM: Who'shelping them, Sita or Sonja or

what?

DAVID: Is Sita --yeah, they're back.

JIM: Is Sita there?

DAVID: Where's Sita?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: --

DAVID: She can come here.

JIM: Yeah, let me talk to her a minute.

DAVID: Allright.

Sita: Jim?

JIM: Hi, Sita.

Sita: Yes?

JIM: That went smooth, okay?

Sita: Oh, yes, fine. I just forgot one

thing to give to the guys.

JIM: Okay.

Sita: But I'll give them the next round.

JIM: That's great, that's great.Now, are,

are these next two ready cause I've gotthe car there

waiting, so Iwanted to kind of get them out.

Sita: Okay. Is there ladies watching the

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baby?

JIM: Yes. Oh, yes, absolutely. I'vegot.two ladies here.

Sita: So you Indiscernible! I, I gave you

the milkaand the carob. Iforgot to get the honey.

JIM: Yeah. Give me the info on these next

two. Is it -- is this Scott and Chrissy Mabb?

Sita: Yes, Scott andChrissy Mabb.

JIM: And how old are they?

Sita: How old are you? Eleven --

JIM: Okay. '

Sita: -- and seven.

JIM: Okay.

Sita: Scott is 11.

JIM: Okay .

Sita: And Chrissy is seven.

JIM: Okay. All right, good. Why, why don't

you go ahead and get their coats and let them kiss and

hug there and say goodbye and take them out because the

car isat the water tower?

Sita: Okay.

JIM: Okay? And listen.

Sita: Yeah?

JIM: And then -~ I told David I'mgoing to

have to get off the phone for a few minutes, but I'll

be back and, you know, I'lllet you talk to them and

all.

Sita:

16

Okay. You want to talk to David

before you go out?

JIM: Yeah, let me have David. You walk them

out right now, okay?

Sita:

JIM:

get the word.

Sita:

JIM:

DAVID

JIM:

DAVID

telephone lines

JIM:

DAVID

the radio, that

JIM:

DAVID

JIM:

DAVID

JIM:

DAVID:

Hey, guy, don't

JIM:

Okay.

Cause the car's waiting andI need to

Okay.

Okay, Sita. Thanks.

Hello.

Hey, Buddy, she, she does agood job.

Oh, so they're going to open our

up now?

No, I haven't got the word onthat.

Oh, this is what they were saying on

Oh, really?

Yeah.

histen, thisScott, he's11 yearsdld?Yeah.

Yeah. He must be abig boy.

He's, he'skind of small. He's thin.

worry about it, okay? "

Yeah, we'll take care of him. Tell him

17

DAVID: Hey, you can take your motorcycle,

too. You be sure and tellthem that one of the

motorcycles here is yours, okay? All right.

JIM: We move before we -- okay.

-DAVID:

that -- when this

yours, all right?

I'll be sure and tell him

is all over that the motorcycle's

Okay. All right. Love you. Bye.

Come here and give me a kiss. Love you. Remember all

Itaught you, okay? And you'regoing to be a good girl

now, right? --

it.

DAVID:

JIM:

DAVID:

the kids to you.

JIM:

DAVID:

when you get this

you open this up,

in it, all right?

yeah, I'mgoing to, I'm goingto lick

Okay. All right. Now, Jim --

Yeah.

-- make sure these guys are bringing

Yeah.

So you make sure you -- when you,

that I'mgiving to you, you know, and

Iwant you to tellme exactly what's

JIM: You've got it, I will.

DAVID:

gotten there yet?

Okay. All right.Have the kids

JIM: No, uh-uh. They sure haven't.

DAVID: They haven'tgotten there yet. She's

getting them ready.

0-

Q

0

Dr

r"

k

_ 1a

JIM: Hey, David, I really want to thank you.

I appreciate this. ~

DAVID: Oh, well, I appreciate it.

JIM: You know --

a DAVID: I've alwayshad faith in mankind, you

know, that you don'thave to always be so beastly.

JIM: Well --

DAVID: You know?

JIM: --you're, you're awise man.

DAVID: I figured, I figured you all would

turn back when I told you there was women and children

here, but, you know --

JIM: Are they coming? Are they --got their

coats on?

DAVID: Yeah, they're getting all ready.

JIM: Getting all ready? Here, give me Sita

again. Is she there?

DAVID: Yeah, she's here.

JIM: Okay, let me talk to her.

Sita: Hello?

JIM: Sita?

Sita: Yes.

JIM: Okay, are they ready?

Sita: Yes.

JIM: Okay, you going out now?

Sita: Are they playing the --

'

f 92

JIM:

Sita:

JIM:

play it again.

Sita:

JIM:

okay?

Sita:

JIM:

19

We already played it.

We didn't hear it.

Oh. Well, we played it before. I'll

I mean, I will.

Thanks a lot.

Okay. Just take them out to the car,

Okay.

Okay.

Pause!

JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:' Losingthem.

What's happened?They're notthere. Have you got

them? Dead. Okay. Okay.

JIM: David? David? V

JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I've lost him.

STEVE

JIM:

STEVE

JIM:

STEVE

JIM:

STEVE

JIM:

STEVE

**i*

Hello.

Hey, Steve?

Yes.

This is Jim.

Hi, Jim.

Hey, that phone just went --

Okay.

-- off on me. . '

TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Where are they

at now? So, have they been -- the, the other group has

I

92

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20

been picked up, right, the two?

JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Have they picked

them up?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The first two,

yes. A

JIM: Yeah, the first twowe got.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: But Sita was coming out right now with

STEVE: Yeah. I guess they're waiting to

hear that announcement onthe radio.

JIM:Oh. We played it, though, a while--

we'l1 play itagain.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: I mean I'll play it twicefor you.

JustI've got the car sitting there and --

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: -- Iwanted to get them, you know.

STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: He sayshevd

like to get them. He's goingtoplay it twice for us.

JIM: Steve?

STEVE: Yeah.

JIM: Did Sita take them out?

STEVE: Notyet. She'sstanding right here.

JIM: Oh, okay. i

STEVE: She'sright here. They're readyto

§

f K

21

go.

JIM: Ready to go. The car is waiting.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: So just have her go. Just go on out.

* STEVE: There are four to six guys

camouflaged right now down at the barn. Honestly, no joke. H

JIM: Four to six guys at the barn?

STEVE: Yes.

JIM: I don't knowwhere that is. Is that

the back barn?

STEVE: Yes, yes. It's kind of ablock, a

cement block building.

JIM: Okay.

STEVE: They'reon the property.

JIM: Oh, on the property. Okay.

STEVE: They'reon the property.

JIM: Okay. Let me, let me check on this,

okay?

STEVE: All right. Okay.

JIM: Hold on one second.

STEVE: All right.

JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Hey, Steve,

Steve said that there's four guys at the barn. Check

on that.

JIM: Okay, we're checking.

I1

22

STEVE: All right.

JIM: The barn --

STEVE: Just hold on one minute.

JIM: Okay. Hey, Steve.

* STEVE: On the other side of the fence then,

there's twoor three guys crouched.

JIM: Oh, which fence now are we talking

about?

STEVE: Right in the back.

JIM: Well, I'll check on it,

but --

STEVE: Okay. But right on the property,

sure, you know, I mean --

JIM: I'll check on it, but, look, Sita has

guaranteed safe conduct.

STEVE: Right, I realize that. But, you

know, they, they always get nervous when, you know -- I

don't understandwhy those guys are doing that. We

want to keep right on moving with this.

JIM: Right. Well, go ahead and send Sita

out. The car is waiting. In the meantime, I'll, I'll

follow up on that. But, you know, if it's wayout in

the back, you know, I'll check on it.

STEVE:Okay .

JIM: And, you know, we'll getit fixed. But

go ahead and send her out. Oh, hey, Steve. Steve,

Steve.

there.

gave th

there.

of peop

back an

people

and --

23

Are they coming?

STEVE: Yeah, they're coming.

JIM: Okay. I just found out --

STEVE: Yeah.

- JIM: -- you'reright. There were people

They were police. I just found out, we just

em the word to move back.

STEVE: Okay, thank you.

JIM: I'msorry that happened.

STEVE: Okay, I believe that.

JIM: They were, were not supposed to be

STEVE: Thank you much.

JIM: It was a, you know, -- there was a lot

le involved and, you know, communications --

stave: Right.

JIM: But we got the word for them to move

d- - yeah, we're havinga shift change.

STEVE: Pardon?

JIM: We'rehaving a shift change.

STEVE: I see.

JIM: And, you know, we've gota lot of

here and everybody's movingaround, you know,

STEVE: Right.

JIM: -- I told David we're-- they're

2 4

kicking us out of this building we're in.We've gotto

go across the alleyway here to another place.

STEVE: Oh, no. Really?

JIM: It's no problem. It's just more room,

you know?

STEVE = Right .

JIM: And then we'rehaving a shift change

and there'speople moving all around. You know what I

mean. So, I'm sorry it happened, but --

STEVE: Right . ' .

JIM: --we moved themback. Did Sita, did

Sita leave?

STEVE: Just a minute, let me see cause she

went down.. 4 "

JIM: Okay.

STEVE: Yes, she did leave.

JIM: She did leave? Okay.

STEVE: Yeah, she left from up -- she left

from where I'm athere.

JIM: Okay. All right. Here's what we're

going to do. We'regoing to --

STEVE: He says, he doesn't --he says, I

don'twantto rush these kids out of here.

JIM: Oh, no, no. No, no. Here's what we're

going to do. I'mgoing to wait till they make the

hook-up.

25

s'rEvE=Okay. , :

JIM: Okay? And then I'm goingtohave to --

I'm goingtotell you we got them safe, and then I'm

going to have to get off cause they'reswitching my

office. Okay?

STEVE: Okay. How long will that be then

Indiscernible! return?

JIM: You know, half hour, 45 minutes.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: And, and just take abreak and, you

know, maybe you and David can get some time and talk

and --

STEVE: Yeah, he said, you know, he was

giving up, he said, the most precious thing in life,

JIM: Iknow.

STEVE: Yeah, these women. They are, the

women are giving up, you know, their most, you know, it

came from their body.

JIM: I understand and --

STEVE: I knowyou do. Are you afather,

too?

JIM: Yes, Ihave two children.

STEVE: Oh, that's good. Yeah, you would

understand. It'shard for himtolet them go.

JIM: Well, he'snotgiving them up. I mean,

he --

2 6

STEVE: Well, you know what I mean, though,

just even for a,you know --

JIM: A little while, yeah.

STEVE: Exactly. I know, but you know how

mothers are.

JIM: You, guys visit and talk and --

STEVE: Exactly, right.

JIM: -- while we take abreak, you know.

I'm hopingmaybe David'sministry will go on and I want

you guys to talk about that and us resolving this

thing.

STEVE: Right .

JIM: You know, we can do it --

STEVE: Right .

JIM: -- and he, and he needs -- Steve, I'm

goingto tell you something -- where you can help me --

he needs some medical attention. I'm really worried

about him.

STEVE: Oh, I've beentelling him that,but

he keeps on saying he's fine.

JIM: Yeah. Well, you, you talk to him forme and -- -

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: -- and just we're concerned. I mean,

an infection or something, you know.

STEVE: Right .

/

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2 7

JIM:We're just concerned about him. I

mean, you know --

STEVE: Yeah, I know. I was after him even

an hour ago.

- JIM: Yeah, we,we, we,we've gotenough

tragedy. We don't wantany more.

STEVE: Right .

JIM: And, you know, you think about it and

talk with him.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM:We'll try to get him --

STEVE: All right. You want to call me back

then? '

JIM: I just wanted to give you the word we

had the children.

STEVE: Okay, so I'llhangon.

JIM: Just hang on for just a second.

STEVE: All right.

JIM:I'm going to check and see if they've

got them. _

STEVE: Right. Okay.

JIM: Hold on one second -- all right,

they're stillcoming I guess. I guess they'rewalking

down or something. Since -- Unidentified male voice

in background not discernible.!

STEVE: Jim, I'm justgoing to --

92 f 92

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I92

28

JIM: Go ahead.

STEVE: Pardon? I've got another --I got a

call and I'm goingto just talk to someone here.

JIM: You've got a call?

A STEVE:Yeah.

JIM: What is it, a reporter or something?

STEVE: Somebodythat I guess we knew from

quite a while ago, you know, one that was here. You

know, are you okay and all that?

JIM: Oh, one of your, one of your people?

STEVE: No. Apparently somebody that knew of

us and, you know, it's just like some of these people

are calling the radio, well, you know, do the right

thing, they say, and, you know, say well, you know,

that's exactly what we'vegot to do.

JIM: Yeah. Okay, well --

STEVE: Can Icall you back? Or, wait, I'm

going to go talk to him.

JIM:Well, wait just a second, because I

wanted to - let'sget the kids done and then I'll get

right off, okay? You know what Imean?

STEVE: Yeah.

JIM: I just want to hook them up and then,

and then we'll get off for a while. '

STEVE: Just a minute.

JIM: Yeah, Sita, Sita's out there.

f 92

/

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»~ J

29

Unidentified male voice inbackground not

discernible.!

JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: DO we, do we

have them?

* UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No. They haven't

left the compound?

JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: They haven't?

DAVID: Okay, they're - Jim?

JIM: Hey, David.

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: Where's Sita?

DAVID: I'mlistening to this Dobbs guy try

to explain away everything. .

JIM: Where's Sita at?

DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Where's Sita,

is she downstairs now?

JIM: Okay, they're getting intheir --

DAVID: They're in the car?

JIM: Yeah, Sita's getting in her car, I

think.

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: Yeah, okay. That's what Steve said.

Okay. '

DAVID: Well, you --the guys down at the

tower will probably see them. Where I'm at,Ican't

see them.

ch

30

JIM: Yeah,okay. Okay. And thecar's

waiting on them. Listen, as soon as we hook themup,

okav, which is going to be in just a few --two

minutes, I'vegot to get off because they'reswitching

my office. Okay?

DAVID: All right.

JIM: And I'llcall you back. We'rehaving a

big shift change. There'sall kinds of police, you

know, that worked all night and agents that are moving

around, ambulances, you know. You know, everybodys

got to go to bed, you know.

DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: You can appreciate that.

DAVID: Oh, yeah.

JIM: So everybody's movingaround and

they're kickingme across the alley, so --

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: -- I'll call you back, you know, in

about 45 minutes. But I want to give you the word

we've gotthe children first.

DAVID: Okie doke.

JIM: And then, and then we'llget the

children to talk to you whenI get back on, you know,

later.

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: Okay?

I 92 92

31

DAVID: Okay,I'll letyou gonow.

JIM: Hold on, let metell you I'vegot them

first. I don'twant to have --I want to make sure

I've gotthem, sothat --yeah Indiscernible! says--

what? They didn't comeout yet.

DAVID T0 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Where are they

at? Where are the kids at? Have theyleft yet?

JIM: Okay. Yeah. David?

DAVID: Yeah. _

JIM: I think they're outfront. Tell

somebody to tell them to come on.

DAVIDTO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Tell them co

go ahead and go down. Unidentified female voice in

background not discernible.!

JIM: Man, you're hurting, huh?

DAVID:Yeah, Jim, it, it hurts.

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: I won't lieto you.

JIM: Well, think about -- I want you to

think about megetting you some medical attention. I.

want you to think about it.

DAVID: I'mtelling you, you've gotall these

guys out there that are just telling everybody that I'm

a cult leader.

JIM: Well, that wasn'tus. You know --

DAVID: As long as I'm alive, I'm acult

' 1415

32

leader.

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: Now, when I'mgone, see, then I'll be

removed out of the way and people will be free to think

their own thoughts.

JIM: Well, I don'twant you to be gone. I,

I want to -- I'd liketo see your ministry carryon and

I'd like --

DAVID: My ministry -- I've beenin it ever

since 1985 full force. One out of a thousand people,

okay?

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: One out of a thousand are interested

in the Bible enough to learn --

JIM: David, I'm sorry.They're coming,

Sita's comingright now.

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: Okay? I wantto give you the word in

just a minute. I just wantyou to think about, think

about somemedical attention. Talk to Steve. He, he's

your right-hand man.

DAVID: I'vethought aboutit.JIM: He'syour right-hand man.

DAVID: Well --

JIM: Listen, you can trust him. You guys

talk about it during the break, okay? For me, for me.

92 I92 92

o

"

92

/'

92_

33

I'm asking you to do it.

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: I'm concerned about you.

DAVID: Yeah. See, you don't understand.

JIM:

concerned about

Listen, Icare about you. I'm

you.

DAVID: Iknow you care about me.

JIM: I was able to get --

DAVID: Iknow the system cares about me.

JIM:NO --

DAVID: And Iknow --look, I've --look, in

1988 Iwas arrested, all right?

JIM:

DAVID:

JIM:

DAVID

a confrontation

those sheriff's

into get me, we

them in, cause

Um-hum.

Let's get real now.

Yeah.

In 1988, we were out here, we got in

and Ipraised the Lord when Iheard

cars coming, okay? So, when they came

put our weapons down and we was waving

George is the one that was paying Mr.

Rambo. Now, when they came in, the guys got all out

and says come on over and let'stalk.All right, no

problem. They were aiming on us.Once we put all our

weapons down, we came over.

Isaw Mr.Thorn. Isaid, you know, how you

doing, Mr. Thorn? He kind of frowned at me a little

I

92

§ .

v-

34

bit, you know. See,those guysknew wewas outhere.

Anyway, they said now, boys, is thisall you got? Yes,

sir.Yes, sir. Then all of a sudden, get on the

goddam ground - and they startedkicking atus.A JIM: Hmmm. I

DAVID: And there was antsall over the

ground. We got bit by red ants,you know. I mean,

talking about -- now, you know, that's,that'snot

right because they were supposed to have come out here

and dealt with George. They should, they should have

never sent us.

JIM: Yeah, yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: What'sgoing on

now?

DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: A flag? What

about it? Okay, put up -- Well, go ahead and put up

our flag. Yeah.

JIM: You know, I remember - you were

talking about'88. Hello? David?

DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: Oh, you okay? I want you and Steve to

talk and, and think about getting some medical

attention, okay? I just want you to think about it. I

was able to get all theseagents to the hospital and

get them taken care of, okay?

DAVID: Uh-huh.

O O

35

JIM: Andeverybody thatgot thereis good,and someof those guys were really tore up. Some of

themwere tore up worse than you and they're all doing

good. And I, and I'd liketo - you to think about it,

okay? *

DAVID: :Yeah.

JIM: I mean, it just concerns --

DAVID: I've thought about it.

JIM: Itconcerns meand I want you to talk

to Steve about it, you know. Will you promise me

you'll talk to Steve or --

DAVID: Well, I've beentalking to him all

the time.

JIM: Well, Imean, but about you getting

some medical care. Get his advice, you know, think

about it, and, you know, it'sa wise man who can change

his mind and a strong man who can change his mind. And

I think you're bothof those.

DAVID: Well - -

JIM: You know, only a weak man, you know,

couldn't changehis -- '

DAVID: The seven seals.

JIM: There'sso muchinside you. Imean,

you can do it., v

DAVID: The seven seals, Jim.

JIM: Yeah, Iknow, David.

/'

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Q

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36

DAVID = Okay .

JIM: I just, I just don'twant you to suffer

any more.

DAVID: Well, the children are there, right?

JIM: Okay, they're almosttogether, the

agent said. Just a minute.

_ DAVID: Okay. Well, let me let you go, and

give me a call back, okay?

JIM: No, I want to get them just -- I don't

want any mistakes. If something wereto happen, you

know, you,you guyswould feelbad andI'd feelworse.

So, let'sget them together. I'll give you that word

and then, you know --

DAVID: Okay. Well, let me let you have the

phone with someone elsereal quick so I can get do --

I've gotto do some moving around.

JIM: Okay, David. Yeah, sure.

JAMIE: Hello?

JIM: Who's this?

_ JAMIE: Jamie.

JIM: Jamie, this is Jim. .

JAMIE: Oh, hi, Jim.

JIM: How you doing?

JAMIE: Pretty good.

JIM: Okay.

JAMIE: I think he's just moving -- getting

37

himself up here, trying to move around.

JIM: Oh, that's okay. I know he's hurting

real bad. Sita's downthere with the kids and we're

trying to just --

A JAMIE:Okay.

JIM: -- get you the word.

JAMIE: Yeah. Okay, here, here, he's back.

JIM: Okay .

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: Hey,Dave. Didyou getmorecomfortable? Oh, Dave.

DAVID: Sorry about that.

JIM: Hey, you okay?

DAVID: Two things I don'twant to do, and

that's laugh and cough.

JIM: We got the kids. They're safe. We got

the kids.

DAVID: Yeah, it's myarm -- thanks. Go

ahead.

JIM: You hear?

DAVID: Yeah .

JIM: We'vegot the kids, okay? Everything's

great. We'regoing to take a break. It'll be good for

you, be good for everyone. H

DAVID: Yeah, I need to rest up, get my

energy going.

I

92

'-

92¢

,-

92

JIM: Hey, I love you, Buddy. Now hang in

there.

DAVID: Okie doke. Catch you later, Jiw.

JIM: All right, bye.

a DAVID = Bye.

End of Tape #7.!

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURERBUREAU OFALCOHOL, TOBACCO& FIREARMS

TAPE #8

3/1/93

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #1=When'd you

call him back? Call him back?

2

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: As a matter Of

fact, that little speaker over there -- seeif it comes

on here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: That's what

I'm trying to do here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: Check and see

if you can - _

RECORDED MESSAGE: If you'd like to make a

call, please hang up and try again. If you needhelp,

hang up and then dial your operator

Unidentified voices in the background not

discernible.!

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #1:We'regoing

have the speaker set up -- secondary --

Unidentified voices in the background not

discernible.!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE

UNIDENTIFIED MALE

test, 1, 2, 3. Test, test.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE

UNIDENTIFIED MALE

2, 3.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE

UNIDENTIFIED MALE

SPEAKER

SPEAKER

SPEAKER

SPEAKER

SPEAKER

SPEAKER

#

#2:

#3:

#2.

#3.

#2.

Hello, hell

Test, test,

Hello, hell

Test, test,

Hello, hell

Test, test,

CO

O.

Q.

14

O.

;

test, 1, 2, 3. Test, test.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER

getting --


2, 3. Go ahead. Test, test, test,

doing?


speaker?


- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER

test, test, 1, 2, 3. Okay.

2

3

They're really

Test, test, 1,

3. How you

--on that

Yeah.

Test, test,

Unidentified voices in background not

discernible.!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello. Hello.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Hello.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Something wrong

with this phone again. Hello.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Hello.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Who am I

speaking to? Can't hearyou. Can you call back?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, but wait a

minute.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:'I can't hear

you.

UNIDENTIFIEDMALE SPEAKER: okay. Okay, I'll

calllback.

p

92

?

4

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Hello.

JIM: Hello, this is Jim.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Okay,justaminute.

a JIM: Sure.

DAVID: Hello.

JIM: David, howyoudoing, Buddy?

DAVID: I'mall right.

JIM: Listen, I've got-- some of the

children Ithink just came in and --

DAVID: All right.

JIM: -- I'll havethem here in just a

second. A littleblonde-headed gal.

DAVID: Chrissy.

JIM: Chrissy, that's it. Yeah.

DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: Yeah, she's adorable.

DAVID: You haven't seennothing yet.

JIM: She'sreally adorable. Ithink they'rebringing her over.

DAVID: Okay, hold on a second.

DAVID TOUNIDENTIFIED PERSON:Get Kathy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Hello.

JIM: Kathy? Hello.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Hold on a

second, okay?

I

92

5

JIM: Okay.

FEMALE SPEAKERTO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Would

you go get Kathy'sbrother, please?

JIM: Come over here. Are you Chrissy? I'm

Jim. How you doing? Okay, you want to talk, you want

to talk to your mom?

CHRISSY: Yeah.

JIM: Okay, just a minute. Hello.

Pause! _ .

JIM: Hello. Hello. They laid the phone

down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Excuse me. I'm

going right over here with the cord. Want to put it

around in front of you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

KATHY: Hello.

JIM: Hello.

KATHY: Yes?

JIM: Yeah, this is Jim. Who'sthis?

KATHY: Hi, this is Kathy.

JIM:Okay, Kathy. IsChrissy your little

girl?

KATHY: Yes.

JIM: Okay, hold on. She's righthere.

KATHY: Okay.

JIM: Okay.

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good?

him? Did

6

CHRISSY: Hi, Mommy.

KATHY: Hi. How you doing?

CHRISSY: Fine.

KATHY: That'sgood. They, they treating you

CHRISSY: Yeah. -

KATHY: Okay. Love you.

CHRISSY: I love you, too.

KATHY: Okay.

CHRISSY: I'mall right.

KATHY: Okay.

CHRISSY: I think that was Brian.

KATHY: Brian said hi, Chrissy. Did you hear

you hear him?

CHRISSY: Yeah.

KATHY: Okay. I love you.

CHRISSY: I love you, too.

KATHY: Always.

CHRISSY: Huh?

KATHY: Always. Okay?

CHRISSY: Okay.

KATHY: Anything else? Chrissy.

CHRISSY: What's your name?

KATHY: Huh? _ W

CHRISSY: Jim wants to talk to you.

KATHY: Okay. Thank you. I love you. Bye-

7

bye. "

JIM: Kathy.

KATHY: Yeah.

JIM: She's fine.

»KATHY: Great.

JIM: And the Health and HumanServices

people arereal good. They're lookingafter her. Now,was there anybody you wanted us to call or --

KATHY: Scott'sgot the address andthe phonenumber of their dad.

JIM: Okay. Scott's gotit?

KATHY: Um-hum.

JIM: Oh, with him. And he'llbe out? Yeah,

he's comingover shortly.

KATHY: He, he's withChrissy. Well, he went

out with Chrissy.

JIM: Yeah, okay. How you doing?

KATHY: Fine.

JIM: Not hurt?

KATHY: Oh, no.

JIM: Okay. Iappreciate you workingwith uson it and sending the children out.

KATHY: I have two more coming out and want

them to meet up with Chrissy and Scott. _

JIM: Oh,absolutely. Wouldyou tell metheir names?

,

-_

K

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KATHY:

JIM:

KATHY

this week.

A JIM:

Jake?

KATHY

JIM:

minute.

KATHY

JIM:

SCOTT

JIM:

SCOTT

JIM:

KATHY:

SCOTT:

KATHY:

SCOTT:

KATHY:

out there, huh?

SCOTT:

KATHY:

: And Brian is -- well, he'll be three

8

Jake Mabb and Brian Schroeder.

Okay.

Oh, Brian'sthree. Okay.And how is

Jake is nine.

Nine, okay. Now, hold on just a

Okay.

What's yourname?

Scott.

Scott. Is your mom Kathy?

Yes.

Okay. Kathy, here's Scott. Hold on.

Okay.

Hi.

How you doing?

Fine.

Okay. They'vegot a lot of people

Yeah.

All right. Make sure they take care

of you and you take care of her. -

SCOTT: Okay.

KATHY: Remember what I said, God sits on the

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throne.

SCOTT

KATHY

SCOTT

~*KATHY

loves you.

SCOTT

KATHY

JIM:

JIM:

JIM:

Services people

right down here

JIM:

KATHY:

IJIM:

phone number?

with us, okay?

KATHY:

9

: Yeah.

: Ilove you.

: Ilove you, too.

: Okay. You don'tforget that. David

Okay?

: Okay. Jim wants to talk to you.

: Okay. Ilove you. Bye-bye.

Kathy?

KATHY: Yes.

Okay, they're fine.

KATHY: Great.

And we'll let the Health and Human

take care of them, okay?

KATHY: If you can get ahold of their dad as

soon as possible, I'm sure he will be glad to drive

and get them, because --

Where does he live?

Lives in South Dakota. It'll

probably take him a day to get here.

Okay, Scott, do you have your dad's

Let me see. Okay, Kathy, we'regoing to

work this out and we're goingto try to resolve this.

So Iwant you to hang in there with us and try to work

I

Yeah, Iknow you've beenreal good

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with everything.

JIM: And, you know,I just want youguys tohang in there. We'll do --

KATHY: Oh,yeah, we're-- morale'shigh.We're alldoing good.

JIM: Great. That's super.But we'regoingto get a good resolution to this, okay?

KATHY: I know.

JIM: And, let's see,I need to talk to David

about, well, I guess the next children wewant to send

out and -- well, would that be Jake and Brian?

KATHY: Are Jake and -- David, are Jake and

Brian going next? Yes.

JIM: Okay. Well, you may start getting themready.

KATHY: They'reready.

JIM: Oh, they're ready.

KATHY: Got to put Brian's shoeson.

JIM: Okay.

KATHY: And his coat and --

JIM: Okay.

KATHY: -- he'll beready.

JIM: Tell me when-- I'llgive you a few

minutes, youknow, tokiss themand hugthem andallthat.

KATHY: Yeah,we're doingall that right now.

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JIM: Okay, that's great.

KATHY: Justwhenever youplay the message3 again, we'll beready.

4JIM: Play themessage again.Absolutely.5We'regoing to get that done right now.

6 KATHY: Okay.

7 JIM: What -- how, howmany morekids are _8 there?

9 KATHY: Oh, there'sa lot.

10 JIM: Yeah? Ten, twelve, fourteen?

11 KATHY: I, I,I don't evenkeep trackany12 more. I don'tknow howmany haveleft, I don't.know,13 you know --

14JIM: Yeah, okay. Okay. Well, I'm kindof

15 concernedabout David. I knowhe wasbleeding real bad16and I'mjustreal worried about him.

17KATHY: Yeah, he'spretty bad.

18JIM: Yeah. I'mreal worried about that. I19don't want him t o get an infection or something. And,

20 you know, I'dlike to get himsome medicalhelp, but --21okay, are you -- is --did Sita bring these children

22 out?

23 KATHY: Yes.

24 JIM: Okay. Well,that seemsto beworking25 well.

KATHY: Yes. Just remembershe's nota kid,

f

4JIM: Sita. NO,

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12

1 Ieventhough she looks like one.

2JIM: Who?

3KATHY: Sita.

I, Iunderstand. The agents

5 have already seen her, you know --

6 p KATHY: Yeah.

JIM: -- a bunch of times and --

KATHY: Yeah.

JIM: -- she's doinga great job and you guys

super. This was great. So just keep it up and

keep, keeppositive. Everything'sgoing to work out.

BIG

KATHY: Okay.

JIM: And you have my word on it now. Just

work with us, okay?

KATHY: Okay.

* JIM: All right. Who else is around there?

Is David there?

KATHY: Yes,he's righthere. He'slayingdown.

JIM: _Okay.

KATHY: You want to talk to him?

JIM: Well, if, if he wants abreak, I'll

just hang on with you for a minute if --

KATHY: Okay.Yeah, he wants to-get someI881: .

JIM: Okay. Isthere anything you need to

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5

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8

9

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13

, 14

15

16

17

18

19

II 20

.21

22

~23

24

25

they

We're

going

about

going

you.

you know,

13

ask me?

KATHY: No. I just, I just want to make sure

get to their dad, basically, you know.

JIM: What'shis name, can you tell me?

KATHY: William Mabb. "

JIM: Okay.

KATHY: And, you know, he, he has already,

wanted them in the past, so --

JIM: Yeah.

KATHY: -- he -- oh, what's --

JIM: Kathy?

KATHY: Yeah.

JIM: You need to turn on Radio 1080, KRLB.

going to play the message.

KATHY: Okay.

JIM: And I don'twant you to miss it.

KATHY: Okay. It's onright over here. He's

to play the message. Okay.

JIM: What, what, whatcan I tell the kids

when you'regoing to see them again? They're

to -- starting to be, you know, wanting to see

KATHY: Tell me them soon. Tell them soon,

I'll see them soon. ~

JIM: Okay. All right. Cause, you know,

they're goingto be asking for you and stuff, you know.

14

KATHY: Yeah, especially Brian when he comes

out.

JIM: Okay. So, you know, I don't--

KATHY: He'sprobably going to cry.

JIM: Yeah. Well --

KATHY: But tell him I'll see him soon.

JIM: Okay.

KATHY: Mommywill come and get him soon.

JIM: Okay. Okay.

KATHY: I know their dad'1l take care of

them.

JIM: Yeah. Well, he'spretty far away,

though, isn't he?

KATHY: Well, you know, legal battles, you

know, could ensue, but he, he would end up getting them

anyway. So I'd rather they just go to him.

JIM: Well, okay. We'reconcerned, you know,

for their safety and, you know, I'm sureit'll be a

little traumatic for them to go with their dad if

they've beenwith you. How long have they beenwith

you? Their whole life, I guess?

KATHY: Yeah.

JIM: Yeah. Has he ever had them?

KATHY: Well, for a vacation, you know.

JIM: Yeah. But that's kind of short, isn't

it?

[

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there?

»JIM: Yeah,

children, up there?

KATHY: Yes,

JIM: Okay.

sure try toreach him.

capable of taking care

JIM: Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED

done, I'vegot acall.

KATHY: Call

UNIDENTIFIED

JIM: Okay.

KATHY: Yeah

KATHY: Yeah,

KATHY: Okay.

15

KATHY: Well, yeah.

JIM: Does he --has he got agood job up

KATHY: He's in the service.

okay. The Air Force probably.

JIM: That's what's inSouth Dakota.

KATHY: Right. Rapid City.

JIM: Rapid City. Alittle cold up there.

KATHY: Yeah

JIM: Does he have any otherfamily,

he does.

All right. Well, we'll, we'll

he's, he's,he's verywell

of them.

>MALE SPEAKER:As soonas you're

who?I'm talking toJim.

MALE SPEAKER: Are you?

KATHY: Steve needs to talk to you.

JIM: Thanks for your help.

.

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KATHY: Okay. You take care of them and get

them to Bill and, and he'lltake care of them.

JIM: Okay. .

KATHY: I know he will.

"JIM: You hang in there now.

KATHY: Oh, yeah.

JIM: We'reall going to get out of this

and --i

KATHY: Okay.

JIM: -- come through this okay. You got it?

KATHY: Okay. You just, you just keep doing

your good job.

JIM: All right. Hang in there:

KATHY: Thank you.

JIM: Okay, Kathy.

KATHY: Take care.

JIM: All right .

STEVE: Hello, Jim.

JIM: Hey, Steve, how you doing?

STEVE: Not good because I was downstairs --

Hello?

JIM: Hello. Hey.

STEVE: He just -- his knee hit the, the --

look out, look out there. Okay. Yeah, we'renot too

happy because Wayne called me into --pardon? To

someone else.! David is really getting upset because

~

;

17

we weredownstairs, thetelephone rang,his parents are

on the phone. They were saying a few words to him and

he was just telling them to be cool, that everything

was being worked out, and the phone went dead.

JIM: Oh.

STEVE: They couldn't call in. Nobody can

and you can't callout. David said he'sgoing to stop

the children even.

JIM: Well, Idon't want him to do that.

STEVE: Imean, there, there's no sense in

doing that with the phone. Nothing'sbeing said. He's

talking to them about relaxing and --

JIM: Sure.

STEVE: -- trying to keep these people, you

know, you know, they'reall upset and they don't know

what's going on.

JIM: Sure, Iunderstand.

STEVE: They want to hear the voices and

we're trying to just say just look, like, you know,

it's beingworked out, but, you know, they like to hear

it from us, of course.

JIM: Yeah. Iunderstand.

STEVE: Can, can you have them open up a line

again? I mean, in fact, you know, it's-- is ita big

deal or what?

JIM: Well --

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STEVE: David'ssaying tell them to open up a

line.

JIM: Okay. I'll, I'llhave to pass it up to

the commanders, okay? I'vegot to be straight up with

you. It7s going to be very difficult.

- STEVE: Okay. Well, I'm, I'mgoing to put

the phone down and you can call me back. Or, if I

don't hearfrom you in a while, I'll callyou back.

JIM: Okay,

STEVE: Go to them, talk to them, because, I

mean, everything yesterday, I mean, we appreciated that

you allowed us to talk with some of these stations

about what we believe in.

JIM: Right.

STEVE: Here's David.

JIM: Okay.

DAVID: Yeah,Jim --

JIM: David, how you doing?

DAVID: Now, listen to me.

JIM: Okay.

DAVID: You guys are telling the public of

this country that you don't wantany blood. All right,

now, Imade a deal with you. You tell these boys they

better get our lines back operatable, okay?

JIM: Um-hum.

DAVID: Or they're goingto go to bed every

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1 night with the knowled e th th 'g a tey re the one that

2 killed these littlechildren.

3 JIM: Okay, David.

DAVID: Noplaying around any more,okay?

JIM: I know. Listen, justhang --

A DAVID: No, you listen. I'vebeen fair with

you, you'vebeen fair with me thus far.

JIM: Okay. '

DAVID: But you teil those guys that are

pranking aroundwith the innocent thatthere's onlyonething that makes memad, andthat's whenthe innocentare hurt.

JIM: I understand.

DAVID: Now, I made a deal with you with the

children.

JIM: Right.

DAVID: You tellthese boneheads, these

bureaucrats, whateverthey are,to openour linesup.

JIM: Okay. I'm goingto see what I can do.

I knowit's painfulbeing cutoff from the peopleyoulove. I

DAVID: No, the thing of it is is that we

have theright --the radio stationsare sayingtheyhaven't heard from me since two lastnight, and you

know thereason why.People arewanting tocall.Theywant to know some things. People want to --

I

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JIM: David --

DAVID: You have a communication. We've got,

we've gotthree lines here. You'regoing to be getting

us another phone. As a matter of fact, we're supposed

to havewhat, five lines altogether, Steve?

_STEVE: We actually have three.

DAVID: Okay, three lines.

STEVE: We had four --

DAVID: So wecan stay -- and they cut our

cellular out, too.

JIM: Oh, yeah.

DAVID: So, you know, tell them guys if

that's whatthey want is a big fight --

JIM: N0.

DAVID: -- then come on.

JIM: David, no, we don't wantto fight.

DAVID: Okay, that's whatyou're telling me.

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: Prove it to me.

JIM: Well, what we'vegot to do is relax and

I'll seewhat Ican do. But I've gotto be straight

with you.

DAVID: I'mbeing straight with you now.

JIM: You know, that'sgoing to be very

difficult to do. And --

DAVID: Well, thenthis is going to be very

I1

4

one of these things?

JIM: How many guys? Well, I'll have to

check on that, Idon'tknow. A couple of guys, you

know. But there's no,there's nogun on it. There's

no gunon it. It's strictlybullet-proof.

STEVETO UNIDENTIFIED PARTY: And he said no

gun on it, it's strictly bullet-proof. I'm sureof

that.

JIM: Yeah, it is. That's thereason for it.

It's notcoming in there. We're not coming in,I give

you my word. It's just a change in the perimeter. You

know, if we wanted to shoot at you, we could have been

shooting at you.

STEVE: Sure,you could.

JIM: And we haven'tdone that, you know,

since you and me worked out that cease fire Sunday

morning, right?

STEVE: Seems like it has been going very

well. That's why -

JIM: Right.

STEVE: --I'm quite surprised about these

new tactics.

JIM: Well, you know, we haven't--

STEVE: More and more inches is right.

JIM: But, look, we haven't shotat you. We

want to resolve this thing. You do, too. You're good

lx

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men andyou wantto resolve it. We're goodmen andwe

wantto resolve it.

STEVE: Pardon? Unidentified voice in

background not discernible.! Whatever happened with

getting the kids out? '

JIM: Well, wewant to get the kids out. We

wantto continue to get everybody out, so wecan --

STEVE: Herewe're talking -- We were talking

about you and I were working about getting the kids

out --

JIM: Right.

STEVE: -- andwe had this problem with the

telephone. That's what you andI were communicating

about.

JIM: Right.

STEVE: Now you're telling me about bringing

in these vehicles.

JIM: Yeah.

STEVE: So, I mean, what on earth?

JIM: Well, one thing we're doingis we're

changing the --

STEVE= I suppose maybe you could bring them

in andwe'll just keep the kids and wait and seewhat

happens. »

JIM: Well, one, one reason for it is we're

changing the inner perimeter to the, to the FBI and

_6

ithey'regoing to bethe ones holding the inner

perimeter. And the ATF agents are pulling back

farther.

STEVETO UNIDENTIFIED PARTY: He says the ATF

agents are pulling back and the FBI are going to be

holding the perimeter.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE IN BACKGROUND:

indiscernible! going to come and kill me.!

CHILD'S VOICE:Are you going to come and

kill me? I

JIM: Hello? No, Honey, nobodys going to

come and killyou.

CHILD'S VOICE:Are they going to come and

kill me?

JIM: No. No. Nobody's coming. Steve?

MR. KORESH: Like Itold you --

JIM= Hey, David.

MR. KORESH: Hey, Jim.

JIM: What?

MR. KORESH: This is in your hands now,

buddy. U

JIM: Hey, it's just --

M. KORESH: You're theone, you'rethe one

talking to me. Now, let me tell you, Imade an

agreement with you and Itold you straight across the

table --

7

JIM: Right.

MR. KORESH: --you keep theseguys aways

Now, if they go against your will, you can't do

nothing, can you?

JIM: No, Ican do something. I'm goingto

work with you.

M. KORESH: But you told me that you wasin

charge of this. -

JIM: Oh, I'm not the commander. No, I'm not

in charge.

MR. KORESH: Okay.

JIM: I'm just the guy that'stalking to you.

MR. KORESH: Right.

JIM: I've gotall kinds of bosses and

commanders andgenerals around here. I mean, I've got

guys with scrambled eggsand gold leaves and badges

like you wouldn't believe, and they'reall

heavyweights, from Washington to the governor, you

know. And, and everybody -- Imean, think about me. I

getpressure. I've gotthe news, I've gotthe

governor, I'vegot the vice president, I've goti

everybody in the world --

MR.KORESH: You're my,you're myvoice then.

JIM:Well, but, you know, Dave, let me, let

me ask you to do something for me. Listen to me for a

minute.

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MR. KORESH: I'm listening.

JIM: I've got a lot on my shoulders, too.

MR. KORESH: Uh-huh.

JIM: And I've hada lot of pressure.

M. KORESH: Uhhuh.

JIM: And everybody's promising me that

nothing's going to happen to you, okay? Everybodys

promising me that. I'm telling you nothing's going to

happen to you. I'mtelling you that. Nothing at all.

You've gotto work with me. You are going to see these

things. I'm not tricking you. They didn't showup

without me telling you. I went the ex-- Igot ina

battle with the commanders about the guns on there. I

said don'tsend anything out there with guns. They

took their guns off.

Imean, it's strictly bullet-proof shield,

that's it. And I know you don't like it. I sympathize

with it.

MR. KORESH: Idon'tmind it. I'm just

essentially saying that, you know, they're just,

they're just, like I say, taking theirinches. They're

just, you know -- We know who's goingto win this deal.

JIM: You know -- But, listen, you told Gary

all day that you trusted me.

MR. KORESH: Oh, I do.

JIM: Was that true?

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M. KORESH: But now you're starting to, now

you're starting to move off.

JIM: N0. No.

MR. KORESH: Yes, you are, Jim.

JIM: No. Listen, I trust you and I'm

telling you --

MR. KORESH: Yeah, I haven't brokenmy part

of the deal. u

JIM: Well, I'm notbreaking either. We're

not coming in. Our part of the deal was we'renot

making any aggressive action.

MR. KORESH: Stay on the outside of the

property.

JIM: Well, I can'tguarantee it. I'm going

to try to see what I can do. I don't know where

exactly they'll be positioned. What I -- Here's what I

want you to do for me, okay? Let's just go one step at

a time. Let the --You're going to see them. Pass the

word to all your people. When they stop, I want you to

call me.

M. KORESH: Or you call them and tellthem

where to stop.

JIM: No, I'm notgoing to call them. I want

you to call me and tellme where they are, okay?

MR. KORESH: All right, we'll do that.

JIM: All right, you call me and tell, tell

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10

1 me where they are. And then let's see if there's any

2problem with that. And you look atthem good and you

3 haveyour men look at them good. There's no guns on

4them. There's noguns.

5S A M. KORESH: It's, it's dark outside now.

6 JIM: Well, you've got night scopes.

7 MR. KORESH: That'sright, but, likeI say,

8 over so many hundred yards, then it's-- then you don't

9know what you're dealing with. They've gota.50-

10 caliber aircraft barrel on it or something like that

11 behind anevasive plate. I mean, you know, you can't

12 really tellin certain distances like that.

13 JIM: David, listen. I've giving you 100

1 14 percent absolute guarantee, my word, repeat, okay, no

15 one'sgoing to take any action. I'm giving you my

16 absolute solemn promise, that's it. I'm telling you it

17 won't happen.I'm tellingyou these vehicles are going

18 to move up, so that's what's going to happen.

19 MR. KORESH= So when are they going to be

20 here?

21 JIM: when they going to be there?

22 MR. KORESH: Yeah.

23 JIM: Soon, you know. Next few --

24 MR. KORESH: Okay, once they get situated,

25 we'llgive you a call and tellyou what's happening.

And thenlet's startthis evacuating children again.

1

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JIM: All right. And we --Listen, I just

want -- That's greatman, I'mtelling you. Just hang

with us. I've gotto deal with all these generals

and --


JIM: --I'm trying to get them, you know, to

deal with me. And we took the barrels off to

demonstrate that we're notthreatening you, but, you

know, we don't wantany other agents hurt.

MR. KORESH: All right. Well, we'll talk to

you later then, all right?

JIM: All right. Now, you call me when they

get stopped, okay?

M. KORESH: All right.

JIM: All right, buddy.

MR. KORESH: Bye.

JIM: See you.

iitii

STEVE: Hello?

JIM: Hey, Steve?

STEVE: Yes.

JIM: Hey, this is Jim. Is David there?

STEVE: Yes, he is.

JIM: Okay.


JIM: Okay.

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12

MR. KORESH: Hello, Jim?

JIM: Hey, David. I've got this child here,

Jenessa.

MR. KORESH: Uh-huh.

JIM: And, and she wants to talk to her mom,

Ithink.

MR. KORESH: Okay, wait one second now.

JIM: Oh, here she is.

MR. KORESH; Okay, wait a minute.

JIM: All right.

MR. KORESH: Okay, what I need, what I need

to know, okay, your guys are moving in, all right?

JIM: Are they there?

MR. KORESH: Yeah, they're moving in all

around us.

JIM: Yeah.

MR. KORESH: So they're going to bust us in a

heart --

JIM: No. No, we'renot going to bust you

tonight. No, you have my word they're not.I'm

telling you they're not. This, this is straight up.

Hey, would you talk to Jenessa and let her mom talk,

and then you and Ican talk? 'Cause she's beenhere a

while and I think she's getting kind of tired.

MR. KORESH: Okay, let me talk to her.

JIM: Okay. This isDavid.

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JENESSA: Hi, David.

MR. KORESH: Hey, how you doing?

JENESSA: Fine.

MR. KORESH: Doing fine?

JENESSA: Yeah.

MR. KORESH: Okay, that'sgood. All right,

where, where'syour sister? You with all your sistersnow?

- JENESSA= I haven'tseen Tamir phonetic sp.!

yet, no.

MR. KORESH: Oh, Tamir ain't goneyet?

JENESSA: Yes, she's, she'shere. I'll be

seeing her soon.

MR. KORESH: Oh, okay. Okay, hold on a

second. Jenessa, your mother, she's kindof, you know,

upset right now.

JENESSA: Okay.

MR. KORESH: She says she'll talk to you all

later, okay? Just have faith inGod, all right?

JENESSA: Okay.

MR. KORESH: Okay, so, you know, are you

strong? '

JENESSA: Yeah.

MR. KORESH: That's good.All right, let me

talk to Jim then. Y

JENESSA: Okay.

v

1

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2 MR.

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JIM: Thank you. Can I let her go now?

KORESH: Yeah, she's --Jay's upset. She

says she'lltalk to them later.

JIM: Oh, okay. All right.

- MR. KORESH: Okay, now --

JIM: Now, David, I'mgetting some kind of

disturbing reports that, you know, youmight be just

really down. You know,I mean, people are telling me

that, that used to know youthat, you know, you're

just - you might sink real low in a situation like

this. I'mkindof worried about it.

MR. KORESH:What do you mean, sinklow?

JIM: Well, I mean, what we want to do is we

want to get these kids out. Then we want to c

get the women out, then we want

hange and

to get the men out.

And, you know, I want youto makethat agreementwith me.

MR. KORESH:Well, likeI told you, I said

we're goingto getthe kids out. Then we'lldo so

renegotiating, okay?Beca

U12

use, you know, likeI say,

you all are sayingthat the main guyhere that'scaused

all this trouble is me, right?

JIM: Oh, no, we'renot saying that.

MR. KORESH: Well, come on, Jim..

JIM: No, hey, you're just a

MR. KORESH: We'v

guy in charge.

ebeen watching all the TV

V .

iI

2 pretty bad. Half statement

4

5MR. KORESH:

6

15

1' andeverything and, I mean the v ', y e got me painted

s, quarter statements, you

3 know --

JIM: Well, they do that. I mean, they --

I know, but that, that creates a

tenor in the public which -- But anyway --

JIM: Well, listen. YQu, you share with me --

Now, I'vetold you howI felt. You share with me your

thoughts and concerns about what's goingon. I mean,

I, I guess I'm-- what I'm askingfor --

MR. KORESH: Is what I want to do --

JIM: I want you, I want you to open up to

me, but Idon'twantyou to, you know, I wantyou to be

straight out. I, I can't,Ican'tdecipher the

.scripture. I'm just not a theologian and I just want

you to tell me straight out what are your concerns,

what do you, what do you wantto do? What can I do to

help you?

M. KORESH: Well, where we're atright now

is I wantallthese people to have a chance to think,

every last one of them, everyman, everywoman, you

know. And I wanttime, I wanttime for people to

think.

JIM: Yeah.

MR. KORESH:I want time for people to live.

I don'twantany more people hurt. And I want to have

A16

time just to sit here, lay here --

JIM= All right.

MR. KORESH: -- and let whatever happens to

me happen. But I want these people to have time to

where, where I'm gone-- You know, that may be asking

too much for you. I know you all want to get inhere

and really bust us up quick, but these people here,

they've gotto maketheir owndecisions. Andif I have

influenced them, you know, then, like I say, if you

just giye me enough time because -- to let these wounds

take their effect and just let me die --

JIM: But, you know --

MR. KORESH: Jim, look --

JIM= David, listen.

MR. KORESH: No, Jim, listen.

JIM: This has been painful for us. Come on.

MR. KORESH: Jim, listen, listen, Jim,

there's nothing that hurtsme more than being called a

cult leader, all right?I spoke the truth but you

don't know that.

JIM: Yeah, but we didn't call you that.

MR. KORESH: I know. Jim, listen --

JIM: You -- Hey, those news media, you guys,

come on.

MR. KORESH: Look, Jim, let me explain

something. People do have a lot of influence and I»

I

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understand that.

JIM: Yeah.

MR. KORESH: Jeremiah says wound heal that

trusses from the arm of flesh. So all I'm askingis

thatyou--

JIM: But, David -- _

MR. KORESH: -- keep the guys off.

JIM: Oh, yeah, but let me, let me ask you

something. The position you'retaking, okay, without

letting us give you any medical care --

MR. KORESH: Idon'twant the medical care,

all right?

JIM: Iunderstand, but just listen --

MR. KORESH: I've beendoing my work ever

since 1985, all right?

JIM:Um-hum. But just listen for just a

minute.

MR. KORESH: If I'mwrong, people like me

don't deserveto live, okay?

JIM:Listen, listen --

MR. KORESH: Do you understand me, Jim?

JIM: David, I do, but I, I've beena good

listener and I'm justasking you to listen to me for

just a minute. The way, youknow, you'vegot this

wound in there and you're suffering,it's almostlike

you're hurting yourself. And --

18

MR. KORESH: I asked for it, didn't I?

JIM: Yeah, but, you know, I'ma Christian

man and I know about Jesus and he didn't killhimself.

Jesus didn't hurt himself.

_~MR. KORESH:No, hedied onthe cross.

JIM: Right. And he died trying to spread

the word.

MR. KORESH: Yeah, and --

JIM: And --

M. KORESH: Let me tell you something.

JIM: -- if you're dying, you can't advance

the word.

MR. KORESH: I can'tadvance the word anyway.

See, with the news media, with the coverage, you

understand, slander is something that's been used --

Look, the best thing to do right now is to give these

people a chance.

JIM: I want them all to have a chance.

MR. KORESH: Yeah. And those who've done

injustice, I mean, you know, they'vegot to, they've

got to give theirselves over to the judicial system;

We knowthat. But, remember, I'mthe bad guy, okay, as

far as the world thinks. So just give these people

time. You know, send some of these guys home. You

know, keep, keep aperimeter up. You know, always, you

know, make sure nobody leaves, you know.

19

JIM: All right, David,let me--

V MR. KORESH: Giveustime to get hungry, give

ustime to get thirsty. You know whatI'm saying?

JIM: David, will you be straight with me?

MR. KORESH: I'm straight.

JIM: Are you going to commit suicide?

MR. KORESH:I'm notgoing to commit suicide.

JIM: Your word? Your word?

MR. KORESH:My word is the word.

i JIM: You're goingto comeout of there?

MR. KORESH:Well, I want to lay here and let

this take care of me.

JIM: Well, that's committingsuicide.

MR. KORESH: No, it'snot.

JIM: Sure, it is. It's killingyourself.

MR. KORESH: Look --

JIM: Jesus didn't kill himself.

MR. KORESH:Look, let's,let's, let'sget

back on this one thing. God sits on the throne in

heaven, right?

JIM: Man, I'm reallyworried about you.

MR. KORESH:Listen, Jim, does he or does henot?

JIM: Would you -- Let me ask you this.

MR. KORESH:Question: Does he or does henot?

,

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* JIM: He loves you, sure, he does.

MR. KORBSH: No, does he sit on a throne or

not? -

JIM: Sure, he does.

MR. KORESH: Allright. Does he have a book

with seven seals? '

JIM: Yes, he does.

MR. KORESH: Is Psalm 45 the first seal?

JIM: Well,I'm not sure. But if you say so,

I'lltake your word.

MR. KORESH: You can't do that. That makes

you like a cult follower.

JIM: David, you're beingreal straight with I

me and I've justgot to ask you this question, okay?

Are you going to let any of your other people kill

themselves or die in there? I'vegot to know, buddy.

MR. KORESH: I'm notgoing to do that.

JIM: I've got to know.

MR. KORESH: We are giving a message. We

want to give a message and a witness. I want these

people to have a chance to sit this out, think about

it, you know.

JIM: Well,what's going to happen if you

die? You tellme, if you die from thatwound, an

infection, I want you to tellme what's goingto

happen.

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MR. KORESH: Well, I'mnot going to be around

any more, am I, to influence anybody, right?

JIM: Well, what's goingto happen to your

people? Are they going to walk out?

MR. KORESH: We have to see, Jim. Like I

said, I'mnot acult leader. I'ma Bible teacher,

okay? Nobody ever is committed to do what I ask or do

what I say, okay? People do what they want to do.

JIM: Yeah.

MR. KORESH: Okay? Now, if you let the

people think, you know, they're allscared around here

now --

JIM: Just --

MR. KORESH:You've shownthem a big arm, you

know.

JIM: You know what I'm tryingto do? I'm

trying to let you --I'masking you to let me look

inside your people andyou to see what'sgoing to go

on, becauseunless youdo, then, you know,it's goingto be hard to, to help. V '

MR. KORESH:Well, I'mtelling you what

you'll do.Just give us sometime, give us time, you

know. That'sallI'masking. Give us time. You know,

you'vealldone -- you'veall been enragedalot of

times, you know. Don'tburn our building down.

JIM: No, we won'tdo that.

-

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22

MR. KORESH: -Don't,don't shootus all up.

M Givethese people a chance before God to weigh out

whether what they've learnedin the scripture isthe

truth or, you know, whether maybe they have second

thoughts: But they've gotto, they'vegot to have that

time.

JIM: David, if you die, you'releaving your

people helpless.

MR. KORESH; Look, they'reGod's people.

JIM: But if --

MR. KORESH: I'mjust an instrument, okay?

JIM: Yeah.

M. KORESH: I'm justanother human being, an

instrument, okay? You don'tunderstand. This is not

no glory thing. This is life.

JIM: But if you live, you can spread the

word.

MR. KORESH:I cannot. They'll lockme upin

the jail for 100 years. You know, they blame mefor

everything, you know.

JIM: But didn't, didn'tyou get acquitted on

the trial you had in 1980?

MR. KORESH: Look, we were innocent. In the

court session, you're notsupposed to have a

prosecuting attorney and anotherfriend on the jury.

And the two black guys talked to me later and said that

r

§

w

all the way through.

happened.

court, come on.

chance to think, okay?

JIM: Okay. I'll tell

do. I'm going to do -- I'm, I'm

think, but I'd like you to start

your people that, you know, just

there. '

JIM: Come on, buddy.

JIM: Trust me now.

23

92 between that black guy and Chebaz phonetic sp.!, they

hung that. The other jurists knew that I was innocent

JIM: But they acquitted you, didn't they?

MR. KORBSH: Yeah. But nothing like this

JIM: Yeah. But you'llstill get a day in

MR. KORESH; Look, I know, and I've also

known about money. Come on. Jim, let's, let's just

talk like this. Let's just say give these people a

you what I'm goingto

going to let them to

discussing with all

like you told me,

they're comingout of there. And I want them to get

their minds right, thatthey're coming out of there.

And I want you to set a plan for them to come out of

MR. KORESH: Look, Jim -v

M. KORESH: -like you said --

MR. KORESH= -a plan. Just let me lay here

and let nature take its course with me, all right?

92 ,

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JIM: Yeah, but you know, you know something?

M. KORESH: That may be too much time for

you.

JIM: NO.

A MR. KORESH: But if you move in too quick,

then these people are going to retaliate.

JIM: Listen, I want your folks to have a

chance in life. And, you know, you know how we were

yesterday, where we couldn'tget anywhere, we didn't

seem to get anywhere until you and I started to make

some agreements about the children coming out.

MR. KORESH: That's right. And like with

Gary last night, I kept telling him over and over what

our plan was, and he didn'tseem to understand. So

then, all of a sudden, whathappens is that all this

time, you know, we'vebeen sitting and talking and,

and, you know, back and forth, and, you know, that's

why I'm-- You know, we hear on the, we hear on the TV

that all the children are out.

JIM: Oh, well, those TV --

MR. KORESH: There is such a, there is such a

screw-up in communication. That'swhy I let you talk

to Daylind phonetic! - u

JIM: Oh, I know.

MR. KORESH: You know?

JIM: But, you know, what I'm,what I'm

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25

,trying to say is once we had an agreement about what

was going to happen, you made it happen. You know,

you've gota strong will, and what I'msaying --

M. KORESH: And I explained toyou why.

Because the children don't have decisions in them.

JIM: Iknow it, but, but what I'm saying is;

Iif you could make anagreement with your people that

they're walking out of there and you could --

MR. KORESH; I am not going to tell them what

to do. I never have and never will. Ishow them out

of a book what God teaches. Then it's for them to

decide.

JIM: David, these, these kids need their

pparents and we want everybody to be safe. How about

the women? Can -- Will you let them come out of there?

MR. KORESH: Hey, haven't, haven't Sita and

them already come out?

JIM: Oh, yeah, but Imean, Imean come out

and actually stay out.

MR. KORESH: Yeah, but the thing of it is is

that if they wanted to, they, they could.

JIM: Well, I,

can't because you don'twant them to.

I think they feel like they

M.KORESH: No, no, no, no. Let's stopthat

now.

JIM: Okay. Imean, I thinkyour will is so

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strong that - and they love you so much that they,

they wouldn'tgo unless you sent them. You know what I

mean?

M. KORESH: Jim --

JIM: David, give me asign and send, send a

woman with some children.

MR. KORESH: Jim --

JIM: Give me asign.

MR. KORESH; --I'mnot going to play that

game.

psychologist. You have to have

all I'm trying to do

JIM: Come on, give me a sign. Send awoman

with some children.

MR. KORESH:Jim, your psychology's really

rusty.

JIM: Hey, I'm nopsychologist, I'm a

policeman.

MR. KORESH: I know. You're, you'rea

the best psychology to

be a policeman.

JIM: I'mapoliceman, that's allI am. And

is save some peoplefrom gettinghurt.

want

DO

MR. KORESH: Okay, exactly. That's whatI

to do. Now, are you going to give us some time or

t?

JIM: Oh, yeah, I'mgoing to give you --

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27

Hey --

MR. KORESH: Or are these guys going to come

in here and --

JIM: No, you've got the time, buddy. You've

got it. AYou've gotthe time. Now, you'regoing toseey those vehicles, like I told you, but you've got--

nothing else is happening. Listen, are the, are the

ymothers worried about the kids? Are they upset or

anything? _

M. KORESH: Aren't the, aren't the, aren't

the mothers talking to the children?

JIM: Yeah. Oh --

MR. KORESH: Jay is. You know, Jay may come

out later, you know.

JIM: Is Jay a mother?

MR. KORESH: Yeah, she's, she's the mother of

Jenessa.

JIM: Okay.

MR. KORESH: She says she doesn't want to

talk to them right now.

JIM: Okay. Would you --

MR. KORESH= And she might come out, you

know.

JIM: Um-hum. Are we going to get any other

kids out tonight?

MR. KORESH: Well, I'mthinking about it. I

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mean, you know, what, what are we doing now? Where are

we at?

JIM: You're great, man. Hang in there,

Buddy. Do it, come on.

y A'MR. KORESH: Where,where's thevan at now?

JIM: Oh, I can get thevan there if you want

to do it. Shoot.

MR. KORESH: I'll send a couple more out. Go

get thevan.

JIM: All right. I'll get the van lined up.

M. KORESH: Okay. Well, give me a call when

it gets here.

JIM: All right. You line the kids up and

I'll callyou back. Let's see,let me look at my watch

here. I'll call you at quarter to eight, twenty

minutes.


JIM: Is that enough time to hug them and

kiss them,.get their coats, and at quarter to eight

have them ready to walk out?

MR. xonssm Okay.

JIM: Buddy, I'll call--Man, you're great.

MR. KORESH: Bye, Jim.

JIM: Thanks. Look, don'tgive up on me.

Hang in there.

MR. KORESH: I'm notgiving up on you.

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JIM: All right. Hang inthere.

MR. KORESH: I'm justputting my children in

your hands.

JIM: Hey, we're takingcare of them, too.

M. KORESH: Okay.

JIM: And, listen, if you see --

MR. KORESH: Hey, you know our phone, we

can't even call you now?

JIM: You can't?

MR. KORESH: NO.

JIM: I've got to give you a number?

MR. KORESH: No. What I'm sayingis that we

can't callanybody now. We askedyou to open up some

lines for us. Now we can'tcall anybody. Every time

we dial three digits, it goes da, da, da.

JIM:Yeah. Hey, listen, I've got--

MR. KORESH: Here's Steve. Here.

JIM: I'vegot to line thesecars up and --

STEVE: Jim.

JIM: Hey, Steve?

STEVE: I wanted to call you, you know, like,

say, five, ten minutes ago, and every time I get to the

third digit now it, it's over,it's done.

JIM: Oh, all right, I'll fix it.I'll, I'll

get that corrected rightaway.

STEVE: All right. Yeah, because hewas

f

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wanting to talk, I did, and we were trying to get

something worked out here.

JIM: Oh, hey, my apologies.

STEVE : Okay .

JIM: I, I, I just - We had a good

conversation. We're making a lot of progress. And

I've gotto take a break to set up a car.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: And, and hang in there with me now.

STEVE: I'm--That'sthat I'vebeen trying

to do.

JIM: Okay.

STEVE:I want to.

JIM: Just be patient. I'm givingyou my

word everything's okay.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: Trust me now. Just hang in there.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: Keep everybody calm. We're goingto

get everybody through this.

STEVE: I'm trying to do that.

JIM: You'rea good man. Steve, hang in

there.

STEVE: Okay. H

-JIM: I'll call you back at about quarter to

eight.

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STEVE: Okay. Thanks, Jim.

JIM: And then I'mgoing to get the phOme

fixed.

STEVE: All right.

AIJIM: All right, see you.

STEVE: Bye.

iiii

JIM: And he told me he couldn't dial this

number. Did you cheek on that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I haven't checked

on it.

tttti

STEVE: Hello?

JIM: Steve?

STEVE: Yes. Jim.

JIM: Hey, how you doing?

STEVE: Well, Iwas kind of waiting for your

call there.

JIM: Yeah. I'm sorry,Igot tied up setting

up that car.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM:' I'vegot a car out there that's ready.

STEVE: Oh, it's already out there and ready?

JIM: Well, no, it's, it's not atthe water

tower, but it's, it's just about, you know, about an

eighth of amile.

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STEVE: About an eighth of a mile?

JIM: Um-hum. Have you got the kids ready?

STEVE: We're a little -- Jim, man, I mean,

you know, we thought we were getting it worked out

again, but tell me if it's true or false, we just heard

on the radio that they're planning on hitting us at, at

eight o'clock, which is in three minutes.

JIM: Oh, not true. You stay with me.

We'll, we'lltalk. Mothing'll happen. I'mserious.

STEVE: I mean, I believed you from --

JIM: Absolutely.

STEVE: -- the beginning.

JIM: Oh, that's baloney. I'm telling you, I

don't knowwhere those people -- I think they just sit

there and make up stuff. They make up stuff.

STEVE: I know it. Well, even about David.

There was this -- Remember back in '87this crazy

what's hisname dug up a body. Roden?

JIM: Roden, yeah.

STEVE: They said we did that.

JIM: Oh.

STEVE: I mean, it'sincredible. I mean, I

mean, the news is just ripping us apart with things

that aren't even remotely close.

JIM: Well, I'll tell you what. When we --

After we resolve this thing, you'regoing to have a

92 r | 4

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33

chance to clear all that up. And I --

STEVE: Well, I hope so.

JIM: I hope you do because it really makes

me angry the way they try to slander you and

everything. And it'swrong, but, you know --

STEVE: Well, you know, a lot of these people

are -- they've having,you know, they're,they're

trying to think and decide what they want to do. You

know, there'sa lot of them herethat are that way

and --

JIM:Yeah.

STEVE: And I heardwhat he had to say and

he's saidit before. And, you know, a lot of them

are-- they're so puzzled and confused and --

JIM:Yeah. Well, I understand that.I

really - And I sympathize.

STEVE: And they're sayingthat he'sup and

walking around. That'sbalone . Evy ery time you --

He'snever moved.

JIM:No, I know he'snever moved.

STEVE: You can even tell by his voice. I

ean, I don't get-- I don't evenknowwherethey got

hat from.

JIM:Steve, let me ask you something

traight --

STEVE: Yeah.

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JIM: -- straight up, okay?

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: I'm worried about David. I'm concerned

about him. I, I feel like hiswound is going to get

infected. I'vetalked to him directly about this.

srsvn: Right.

JIM: I feel like hemight die. If that

happens, what, what are you going to do?

STEVE: Well, what I'mgoing to do --

JIM: Are you going to, are you going to let

me --

STEVE: Well, I'm goingto keep on

communicating with you. That'swhy I wanted to, you

know, right from the beginning, right with the

children, right on through to see what these people

want to -- I want to try to help everyone make up their

mind.

JIM: Yeah, but I want you to walk out of

therewith everybody.

STEVE: Well, I'd surelike to.

JIM: I mean, that'swhat we want to do. And

I, I want to save David and you want to save David.

STEVE: But hereally -- This is true.

JIM: I mean, let's,let's getdown to the --

We've gotto get down to the brass tacks. You know,

whenI was in Tennessee, weused to say we'vegot to

35

1 see how the cow eats the cabbage here, you know.

2 STEVE:Right .

3 JIM: I, I don't want to dance around with

4you. I mean, I am not -- I'm justa policeman and I|v-1

5* don'twant to see nobody hurt.

6 STEVE:Yeah.

7JIM: And I told -- I asked David straight

8 out what are you going to do, Dave? I mean, Jesus

9 didn't commit suicide.

10 STEVE: Well, he doesn't want to do that.

11 JIM: Yeah, but I'm afraidhe's letting that

1 12 wound draw him weaker and weaker. He's goingto get anI

13 infection. He's goingto get where we can't bringhimI .

E 14 back. He'sgoing to get wherewe can't--1

15 STEVE: I mean, after all the slander in the

E16 world andeverything he'sgone through,I mean--

17 JIM: The guy'sgone through so --

18 STEVE: All he'swanted to do is speak andII

I 19 open up and love -- to show people what, what God's

20 going to do, bizarre as it seems intown.I

I 21 JIM: He'sgot a chance to make a difference.lI

22 He'sgot a chance to make adifference now and, and you

123 .have achance.

' 24 STEVE:Let me ask him, do you want to talk

25to Jim? Pardon? Unidentified male voice in

background not discernible.! He said all this

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excitement's gettingto him. He looks pretty weak.

JIM: Hey, I wish we could, I wish we could

fool all those news reporters and just -- with their

,,reports on the attacks and you all could just all get. _~

in a group and walk out. And, you know, I really wish

we could just get this thing resolved peacefully.

STEVE: Well,that's what he -- You know,

~that's whatthey want to do, but they're,they're --

,.Actual1y, the truth is they're terrified.

JIM: They're terrified?

STEVE: Well,yeah.

JIM: Yeah.

STEVE: I mean, you know, a person doesn't

want to say that, but, you know, they are.

JIM: Yeah. I understand.

STEVE: They'reafraid to move. They'veseen

all the movement outside, you know, the vehicles. Not

only the three, we heard on the radio that another four

or five are coming from wherever --

JIM: Well,that -- You know, all that

perimeter stuff, Steve, it really -- I, I appreciate.

your concern, but I'mtelling you it's nothing. This

thing is inside. I mean, it'sinside you and, and, and

David. If you want to -- If you guys wanted to get

together and walk out,it's over.

STEVE: Well, I mean, that's what the talk

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has been, right, in the whole afternoon.

JIM: Well, I know. But, see --

STEVE: You're just keeping on saying well --

And they'resaying they'reafraid to make any move

wbecause of what, you know, everybody'slistening to the

radios and all that.

JIM: Yeah, that's abunch of baloney,

though. The radios don'tcontrol us.

STEVE: I know they don't, but,you know,

there are --and there are many thingsthat we have

heard them saying that ended upbeing so, you know.

JIM: Yeah. That, that'sall baloney. And,

look, I'mlooking at my watch and it'stwo minutes

after eight. Is anybody assaulting you?

STEVE: No.

JIM: It'snot true. It's baloney.I'm just

trying to put a straight, you know, be as straight as I

possibly can.

STEVE:Yeah.

JIM: You know, you guys are knowledgeable

theologians and stuff and it's hardfor me to talk on

that level. I mean, I don'tunderstand all those

things. I mean, I appreciate them, I'ma Christian,

but you know what I'm saying.

STEVE: Yeah. You know, I would care about

you whether you were or not, 'cause, youknow I

,

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2you know,

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dictates of their conscience and,

they try to do it the best they can with what

they see, where they'reat inthis life and I don't--

.You know, I've nevercondemned or judged aperson for

that. I~mean, one thing I have learned from the Bible,

it says judge not that he be not judged. So I don't

know whatmakes anotherperson tick, you know. It's

not beengiven to me tolook at another andthen say

they're rightor wrong or whatever.

JIM: Isn't,isn't, isn't thereteachings

also that sometimes, youknow, youmake peaceor throw

down thesword or, you know,you, you love? And that's

what you guys are trying to do.

STEVE: Well, that --You know, like, you

know, that'swhat-- That hasn'teven comeup, you

know. We'vebeen talking abouta lot of issues, we

really have been, and ~-

JIM: Okay. All right, just aminute. I'm

sorry, Steve, wait aminute. He's holl

Okay. Hey, they're readyto sendthe car up. Would

ering at me.

you just tell -- ask Davidto pick whatkids he wants

and maybestartgetting themready?

STEVE: Okay. Just aminute. Unidentified

voices in background not discernible.! -

[sap]

STEVE: It'svery confusing to know evenwhat

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to do.

_JIM= Yeah. Well, look --

STEVE: The mothers, You know, they're

standing there scared even --You know, he, he's been

saying well, do you mind sending your two now and, you

know, some of them are,are talking about they don't

know if they should go along now or what, you know.

y JIM: Why don'tthey all come in a group?

I'll guarantee -- ,

STEVE: Well, see, some of them want to, but

there's somethat don't. And they'retrying -- You

know what I mean? They're, they'reconfused.

JIM: Okay, I understand. And let's--Maybe

we -- I don't want to move too fast.

STEVE: You know what I mean? It just

happened yesterday. That's why--And, you know, there

was starting -- theywere starting to calm down

because -- I'll tell you what, the greatest relief came

was when you startedtalking to usthe way you were all

the way through and, and lastnight. I mean, everybody

felt good about it, they did, about you and the whole

thing. And then with Gary,well, you know, there was a

little bit there,but when you got back on the phone,

we thought we'd justcontinue righton with it.

JIM: You know, I've talked to all these

commanders.

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STEVE: But I'll tell you the truth and, you

know, it kind of freaked us out, though, about those

lines, because, you know, they're parents, they wanted

to talk to their kids --

JIM: I appreciate that.

STEVE:-- and say come on out and, you know,

we love you and all that. Some of them are here saying

they wantedto talk to their, their folks yet. And, soI mean, I didn'tknow what to say to them. That's why

finally we get on the phone and say well, can'tyou

leave these lines open for us.

JIM: Yeah. Well,let me ask you this,

Steve.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: If, if some of the people, some women

and maybe some children, wanted to come out, maybe they

could getin a group andwalk out. I'll guarantee

their safe conduct. They could call you, they could

tell you we'refine.

STEVE: Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't want to

interrupt you but there isa mother here, shewants to

sendher two out right now.

JIM: Okay. Let me talk to her.

STEVE: Okay, just a minute. What, what's --

And Jamie? Talking to someoneelse.!Okay, there's

two that -- two of the mothers that want to send each

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out one right now.

STEVE: Okay, yeah.

ASTEVE: Okay.

JIM: Does that mother want to come

Just ask her.

.not sure what they want to do.

come here. This happened, you know, we didn

what they want

waiting to see what do you want to do. That's

David, he'sso tired of it all that -- I heard

said and, you know, he wants them all to be so

to be able to say well, okay, it is or not and

JIM: Well,

safe and we want them

told me, now, he told

STEVE: All right.

know,they're down atthe other end. I'm lookin

¥

41

JIM: All right, listen -- Okay, Steve.

JIM: Now, let me ask you a question.

out ?

~ STEVE: They're sitting there talking, you

g at

them from a distance and I,I see them talking, but I'm

JIM: I don't --I mean, okay, listen --

STEVE: You know, aperson, you know,I'm

waiting to see what they wantto do. we'vetold them,

you know, you thinkthrough it. You know,you chose to

't want it

to.happen, so, you know,they're all giving thoughts to

to do and, and,in fact, we'rekind of

why

what he

freehand

listen, Steve, we want them to be

to be with their kids.And David

me this many -- five times, okay?

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,1 1 ' JIM: Now, this -- there'saguy that's never

broke his word tome.

3 STEVE: Okay.

JIM: I don't care what the newspaper said, I

d Ion tcare what the radio says, I'm justtelling you

6 whatJim Kavanaugh says, and every time he told me

something he stood by it.

aSTEVE: Right.

9 JIM: And he told me thati

10 someone in there who want

f there was

ed to comeout, he would let

11 them comeout.

12 STEVE: Thatis -- That alwayswill be that

13 way.

14 JIM: Okay. Now so h , w at I m asking is as a

15 sign of good faithand --

16 STEVE: Just a minute.

17 JIM: Yeah?

18 STEVE: Oh, Brian and Jake.

19 Brianand Jake, did

20

Oh, excuse me,

they ever come?

JIM: Oh, Brianand Jake.

21STEVE: I guessnot. In fact, they were --

22 Remember,you -- we were talking toyou and you never

23 got back tous on that,cause the ' y restill -- I just

24 found out theywere -- all this timethey've been

25 standing therewaiting.

JIM: Yeah.

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STEVE: I didn't knowthat. They'redown at

the -- or near the entrance even. .

JIM: Are they, are they ready now?

STEVE: Yeah.

JIM: Okay. _

STEVE: Yeah. I didn'teven know that. They

said -- They told me they'vebeen waiting all this - I

totally forgot about it myself.

JIM: All right. Well, we were supposed to

get those two earlier, right?

STEVE: Exactly.

JIM: Okay. Well --

STEVE: And you said --

JIM: -- why don'tyou do this, Steve?

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: Since the other mother was anxious to

get their two --

STEVE: Right.

JIM: -- put their coats on them --

srsvm All right. '

JIM: Clear it with David, now. I don't--

STEVE: No, he said -- No, he --

JIM: Okay, he said --

STEVE: -- he agrees, he says --

JIM: Then put those four kids together,

cause we were supposed to get two earlier and we

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messed up. '

STEVE: Those, those two, they're still

talking now. They don't-- They'retrying to figure

out should one send her two. They were talking about

maybe sending a little one with an older one. That's

what they'reworking on, and they said send these two.

And they'retrying to decide. You know, it'slike they

want to hug them yet and hang on --

JIM: Sure.

STEVE: -- another minute or two. So --

JIM: They'regood, they'regood mothers.

Come on.

STEVE: Okay, so the two are ready. Brian,

how old is he? How old is Brian? Two years old. And

Jake, he'show old? Did wegive you any information on

them?

JIM: NO.

STEVE: Okay, Jake is nine.He's nine years

old.

JIM: Okay.

STEVE: And they're brothersto Chrissy and

to Scott that already, you know, you have them with

you.

JIM: Okay.

STEVE: Let me -- I'm goingto try to help

them get going here.I guess they're,they'restill --

A0 0@; .45

i_> 1 Unidentified female voice inbackground not

. 2 discernible.! Yeah? Which one?

3 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: David.

4 STEVE: Oh, they were wondering what

I 5happened, how come they're notplaying that message any

6more onthe radio.

7JIM: We did play it. Do you have the radio

, 8 on? A

l 9 STEVE: Yeah, they do, they do.

10 JIM: Okay. We needthe, we needthe message

11 played. They didn'thear it the last time we played

12 it, the scripture message.

113 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You want the

' 14 message played?92-

15 JIM: Yeah. Tell --

Q 16 UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: Canwe get the

17 messageplayed?

18 STEVE: Jim.

19 JIM: Okay, you'vegot -- Who'd youtell?

x 20Okay, okay, we'retaking careof it.

121 STEVE: Okay, good.

K 22 JIM: Theydid playit. I don'tknow, maybe,23 you know, you missedit.

24 STEVE: Yeah.

I 25 JIM: But is-- those othermothers there?

STEVE: They're overat the other-- I canv,-

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see them. They're alittle distance away from me.

They're overthere. Ican see them talking and

discussing it right now.

JIM: Sit the phone down and talk to them,

and if they wantto send them with Brian and Jake,

because we messed up, we'll, we'll-- you know, and

David said it's okay,then we'lltake those four.

STEVE: I, I think he wants to keep on going

like he was. Isee him over here motioning, trying to

have these two get another two ready so thatthey can

go right, right almost after.

JIM:Yeah, okay. Yeah, two by two's fine.

STEVE: Okay.Let's --Okay, let's getthese

two.Where are they atnow?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Brian and Jake.

STEVE:Where are they?

JIM: Can you --

STEVE: It just said on the radio that

there's only10 children here andthey alreadyhave

them,which is ~- Ibelieve you're goingto find out

how many.There are a lot of them.

JIM: That's not true. We know that.

s'r£:vs= Okay.

JIM:You guys told me that wasn't thecase.

Okay, can we --

STEVE: Okay.

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JIM: Let me check onthe car. Hold on,

Steve.

STEVE: All right.

JIM: Have you got the car?

I UNIDENTIFIEDFEMALE SPEAKER:Yeah.

JIM:_ Okay, are the kids ready to walk out?

STEVE: Are they ready to walk out now?


STEVE: Yes, they are.

JIM: Okay.

STEVE: Sita's right here.

JIM: All right. Well, let me talk to her.

STEVE: Okay, here she is.

SITA: Jim?

JIM: Sita, how are you?

SITA: Jittery, but --

JIM: Listen, let me tell you something,

don't be jittery and don't bescared. All that reports

onthe radio isrubbish, okay? You hear me?

SITA: Yes.

JIM: The, the - You will see some vehicles

out there. I told David and I, and I told Steve and

they knowthatit's nothing, okay? Nobody's comingin

there. Now, I've gota car at the -I'mgoing to send

itto the water tower right now.

SITA: Okay, we'll seeyou downthere then.

I

1 JIM:

4I

3 JIM:

4the kids?

5 I

6 bring.

7 JIM:

8 wanted to

9SITA

10 JIM:

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11 SITA

112 children.

13 JIM:92

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15 SITA

3 16 JIM:

17 SITA

t18 and Angelica.

19 JIM:

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2 SITA:

SITA:

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Hey, listen, let me ask you something?

Yeah?

Do you want to come out of there with

Hey, I got, Igot lots of kids to

Okay. Well, David said anybody who

come out could come out. Well, you ask him.

I already asked him and it'sup to me.

Okay.

Right now I'm concernedabout the

Well,why

kids and come out?

I, Iwas

Okay.

See, me,

Right. I

don't youbring the -- your

the first one.

I was the first one. Crystal

know, yeah.I know, you,

you're doinggreat. You'reworking with us.

SITA: And, you know, I was tempted --I love

those - I love all those kids.

.JIM: I know.They need you. These --Let

me tell you something,Sita, thesekids needyou. They

needall their mothers. I wish you could look at -- I

mean, they'rebeautiful, these kids, but they'vegot to

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difficult because, you know, what you say you want to

do, you're telling me you don'twant to do.

JIM: Well, no, I didn'tsay that.Do I have

one, one more little children in here? Is there one

more child here? No, we, we already brought him in.

We're bringinganother child in? Okay. Talking to

someone else.! I have another one of the children here

to talkto -- .

DAVID: Well, get on theball with that other

stuff then. '

JIM: Okay. Well, I'mgoing to see whatI ~-

DAVID: Here'sSteve. I've got to get some

rest, Jim.

JIM: Okay. Hey, listen. Hey, listen. Just

hang in there with me, okay?

DAVID: All right .

JIM: Just hang in there, all right? Hey,

we'llget your message out when this thing'sall

resolved.

STEVE:Hello, Jim.

JIM: Hey,Steve?

STEVE: Yes.

JIM: Let, let me callyou back. I'mtrying

to work on afew things.

STEVE: Thank you.

JIM: Okay.

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STEVE: Thank you.Okay, bye.

iiiii

STEVE: Hello?

JIM: Hey, Steve?

¢92STEVE: Yeah.

JIM: This is Jim.

STEVE: Yes.

JIM: How you doing?

STEVE: Not bad.

JIM: Is David there?

STEVE: Yes, he is. David, you want to talk

to Jim? He wants to know what you'redoing now?

JIM: Well, one thing I wanted to do is I

wanted you to give me the phone number of that line

where you're having the trouble.

STEVE: He wanted us to give the phone number

of the line we're having trouble with. Actually, all

of them, cause noneof them are operating now, except

for one, the one you're talkingto me on now. It's the

only one that I can call or you -and it's onlyto

you.

JIM: Okay. Well, I wanted you to give me

those numbers, but I still need to talk to David, if I

could. "

STEVE: Okay. The numbers - pardon?

Unidentified voice in background now discernible.!

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They just said it on TV, that's there only one direct

line open and to you guys.

JIM: Oh, really?

STEVE: Okay, so, the first number is 863~5663.

JIM: Okay.

STEVE: We haven't beenusing that one. We

didn't --We don'thave it plugged in, so I guess it

doesn't muchmatter, but --

JIM: Okay.

STEVE: And bring a phone the next time,

also. And some cord.

JIM: Let me see what we can do.

STEVE: Okay,cause this, this thing is

poor. The other number is acellular phone, is 744

2662.

JIM: Um-hum.

STEVE: And thenwe have 7 -- or 8635252.

JIM: Okay. All right. All right, I'm goingto give theseto the technical guys and --

"STEVE: And there's oneother one, come to

think of it. The other oneis -- the onethat was cut

off by -- with Waynewas 863 -- and I believe it's--

what's Wayne'snumber? W

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Five nine seven

nine.

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1 STEVE: --5979.

JIM: Okay. Okay, I'll, I'll pass it on to

the technical guys.

STEVE: Thank you much, Jim.

~J1M= But, Steve, I, I --

STEVE:We don't evencare if you monitor or

whatever else --

JIM: Okay.

STEVE: -.because, you know, it'stodo with

what we believe.

JIM: I understand.

STEVE: Okay, good.

JIM: But can I talk to David?

STEVE: Sure. Just a minute.

DAVID: Hello?

JIM: David.

DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: Hi. Listen, we'vegot a change we've

gotto talk about.

DAVID: All right.

JIM: Okay? Now, listen tome before you say

anything, okay? We're havinga change in the field

with these tactical commanders, okay?

DAVID: Uh-huh. '

JIM: You know, because all the agents were

shot and, you know,we're gettinga lot of pressure.

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We don'twant nobodyelse hurt. We've gotthe FBI in

here supporting us and, you know, the state police and

the National Guard. And you know that, we talked about

that yesterday.

A DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: Okay. Now, the tactical commanders are

going to move the perimeter up.

DAVID: No, you keep them back.

JIM: Well, let me, let me, let me tell you

what -- the reasons and --

DAVID: I know what the reasons are, Jim.

JIM: No, David, look --

DAVID: Okay, you want to kill us, come and

kill us, Jim.

~JIM: No. Hey, David, no, we're -~this is

not it. Now, let me tell you why.

DAVID: Jim, let's stop playing around.

JIM: No, let me tell you what we did. Let

me finish. Come on, give me a chance, okay?

DAVID: They told -- Gary told us all last

night they weren't aroundhere. All the night vision

we saw them, we saw them down there digging in. Out by

the barn, out in the back, there are snipers. They've

got scopes. I mean, come on. ~

JIM: Hey, they're notgoing to do anything.

DAVID: Oh, Jim.

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JIM: David, they're not. I can walk you out

of there if you want out. And I can ~- nobody's going

to do nothing to you.

DAVID= Hey .

AJIM: But let me tell you what'sgoing to

happen, okay? We're goingto movesome ofthese big

vehicles up to the tactical position, okay? Defensive

only, okay? V

DAVID: No,

JIM: One thing that'sworrying the

commanders wereall those people thatwere inthe bush

and all those peoplemoving aroundthere. They'vegot

these vehicles that'll protecttheir men. We madethem

take the gun barrels off them. There's nogun barrels

on them, okay? You know, they haveabig gunon them.

Youguyshave alot of heavy weaponsinthere and some

of the, you know,the troops wantto be protected.

DAVID: So stayback then.

JIM: Well, but they, you know,they've gotaduty that --

DAVID: Look, let's stayback, Jim. Let's

get my kids out and we'llstarttalking again, all

right?

JIM: David, I'm afraidthey're probably

goingto be movingbefore I can stop them.

DAVID: Well --

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JIM: I don'twantyou to -- I wantyou to

know they'renot coming -- it'sstrictly they're taking

a position --

DAVID: Look, we already discussed -- you

already told metheywere going to do nothing until you

gave them the okay. So, like I say --

JIM: Well, they'renotcoming. whenI say

that, I mean they'renot coming in there.

DAVID: am; they're movingup closer. They

were coming in close last night. I had to do

everything I could to

JIM: Yeah.

they're justchanging

don't wantanybody to

you. They don'twant

truth. We don'twant

keep the guys off of them.

Nothing is happening except

positions and perimeters. They

be able to come in and bother

anybody to come out, that'sthe

anybody to come out unless we

agree. And we haveset up -- we're just setting up a

defensive positionandnothing progressive, nothingforattack.

DAVID: Who'sfiring guns?

JIM: We're not firing any guns.

DAVID: Jim, like I say, I figured eventually

it wasgoing toget to whereyou all was goingto startcheesing --

JIM: No, hey, we'renot cheesing.

DAVID: In your conversation. You're going

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to take another inch, another inch.

JIM: No, listen, I'm trying to tell you this

in advance as asign of good faith. I didn'twant you

I to think Iwas tricking you. I'm tellingyou this is

going to happen.

DAVID: Yeah.

JIM: I'mbeing straight up. You're not

going to see the vehicles drive upand say Jim lied.

I'mtelling you they're comingbecause they feel

they've gotchange their, you know, perimeter. And --

DAVID: They're going to come on our

property, in other words?

going to happen.

DAVID: Well, get the details and call me

back.

JIM: Well, look, I had them take off the gun

barrels to show you there's no--

DAVID: Come on, Jim.

JIM: Huh?

DAVID: I said come on, Jim. The perimeter

is our property line,okay? We wantthese guys off our

property line.

JIM: Okay. Well,I'm, you know, I'm going

to see what I can do. I can't ~-

JIM: Well, I don't-- I'mnot sure that's

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JIN: Ican'tmake thatpromise, David.

DAVID: Okay, they, they want to kill us,

'they've gotthe big guns now.

JIM: Nobody wants tokill you.

-NDAVID: Hey--

JIM: Nobody wants to kill you.

DAVID: Jim --

JIM: Trust - hey, I'm notgoing tolet

them --nobody'sgoing tokill you. All we're doingis

changing a position. It's going to look like a lot of

activity. They're not coming in there. Nobody's

coming in there.

DAVID: Then tell them to stay off our

property.

JIM: Okay. Well, just bear with me.

DAVID: Or there are going to be some tears.

JIM: No, let's nothave any trouble. Come

on, you can work withme.

DAVID: Yeah, come on, you can work withme I

Jim.

JIM: Come on, David.

DAVID: We'vegot a deal going now with the

children getting out.

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: Okay? Now, if that don't mean

anything to you orthese hotheads, then we'll haveto

30

deal with that later in the judgment, won'twe?

JIM: No, wewant to get the kids out. We v

want to get everybody out. And I don'twant anybody to

get hurt. - r

A DAVID:Like I said,do what Isay then.

JIM: Not any of your people.

DAVID: Then do what I say, Jim. Otherwise,

come on in here and wipe us out. -

JIM: No, that's notgoing to happen.

Nobody's cominginthere to wipe you out.

DAVID: Get on the phone andcall those guys

and tell themlet'sfinish up ourplan and-- they've

got plenty of time, you know,to movetheir tactical

stuff after the kids are out, you know. You don'tneed

to be messingaroundrightnow, like a bunch of little

Boy Scouts.

JIM: Well, David --

DAVID: Theythink they'remature, they think

they're men.They've gotlogical thinking.They, theythink they love the innocent. All right.

JIM: Well, David, let me askyou, howmany

kids - you won'ttellme andI, I don'tknow how manymore --

DAVID: You'regoing to find out.

JIM: Well, I know, but why is that a secret?

We're just trying to help getthem out.And, and,you

C .

31

know, I can't give them atime frame. I mean, what

they're saying is we'vegot to protect the public from

stray rifle fire, if that would occur, and --

DAVID: The, the pub1ic's not even out here,

all right?

JIM: Well, they're, they'reout on that

highway.

DAVID: We're way out here.

JIM: Yeah, but there, there's a lot of

people on those highways.

DAVID: Okay.

JIM: Reporters. I'm telling you --

DAVID: So what is your time limit that

you're going to come in here and bust --

JIM: We'renot coming in. We are not coming

in. We are not coming in.

DAVID: Well, if you keep getting closer,

we're goingto retaliate. And then you're goingto

have to come in, and that's just the way it is,Jim.

I'msorry.

JIM: Well, David --'

' DAVID: You're goingto keep moving your

erratic finger closer and closer to our rear ends,and

then finally we're goingto turn around and we're going

to slug you.

JIM: Yeah.

32

DAVID: I mean, I don'twant that to happen.

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: You know, Imean, this is a great

nation, but, like I said, it's not bigger than my God.

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: Now, the whole meanings of what I'm

trying to tell you in theseals is I'mthe little guy

now.

JIM: Um-hum.

DAVID: Okay, you tried to push me.

JIM: I'm not pushing you.

DAVID: No,let me, let me say your- I just

saw Robert Gonzalez on the TV, you know. They tried to

push me. And you did. But, remember, I tried to tell

you about God who judges all nations.

JIM: Um-hum.

DAVID: I'mthe little guy, you'rethe big

QuY-

JIM: No, I'm notthe big guy.

DAVID: You know, the Goliath, I'm the David.

Remember that. Remember, David took five smooth

stones. And we're inthe fiith seal now, okay?

JIM: Yeah.

DAVID: And Goliath does get his head sunken

in with arock. Think about that.

JIM: Well, listen, David, I, I don't want

92 r

33

you toput more into this than is happening.

DAVID: Hey --

JIM: It's not.

DAVID: -- the same, the same, all right?

AJIM: Okay.

DAVID: You tell these guys to back off.

We're theones thatare edgy.Really we'renot, but,like I say, if they want to keep playing around, then

they'll find out what we've got,okay? g

JIM: Yeah. Listen, okay. I just want you

torelax. Call meif you see them moving. A

DAVID: You call them and then you call me,

okay? Do what you can, Jim.

STEVE: Okay. Let me talk to Steve just a

minute.

DAVID: Okay, here.

JIM: I want to explain it to him. Steve,

hello?

STEVE: Hello?

JIM: Steve?

STEVE: Yeah.

JIM: Hey, this is Jim.

STEVE:Okay, Jim. '

JIM: Listen, now, I've told David and I'm--

I want to tell you, too.

STEVE: All right.

92 F

I

34

JIM: We'regoing to have a change in they

perimeter. This is -- it's defensive,okay? Now,

you're goingto see these vehicles moving and you'll

see where they're setup, okay? Just bear with me now.

*STEVE: I'mlistening.

JIM: And once they go to theirposition and

stop, they're not coming any closer?

STEVE: Pardon? Imissed the last part.

JIM: I, I said they're notcoming any

closer. Wherever you see them go and stop, okay?

STEVE: They'regoing to be on the perimeter

of the property?

JIM: They'regoing to -- yeah, they're going

to set up aperimeter out there, okay? And, now, I

told David, these are like big vehicles, three vehicles

that will protect an agent from getting shot, okay?

STEVE: And what would an agent be doing near

here anyway?

JIM: Well, we're, we'retrying to get around

so nobody goes in. You know all the trouble we had

last night with thosepeople in the bushes, youknow.

STEVE: No, I can't. Talking to someone

else.! '

JIM: Steve?

STEVE: Yes.

JIM: You know all that stuff we had, people

35

inthe bushes andyou guys--your men sawpeople and

our men saw people. And, you know, that's one thing we

can put an end to. When these things, these vehicles

move in, it protects us and it protects you. And they

don't have guns on them.

STEVE: Jim, I mean, what you're saying, I

mean, it would sound good to a kindergartner, you know

that?

JIM: No. .Steve, trust me. We had the gums

taken off them.They're just so the agents don't get

shot,that's all. You guys got some heavy stuff in

there.-

STEVE: We do?

JIM: Yeah. I mean, you know,assault rifles

and, I mean,you know, that'dgo right through a car.

I mean, so --

STEVE: Just a moment. Unidentified voices,

in background not discernible.! Jim, what part of the

property?

JIM: Well,I'm going to --I have to check

on that to find out,okay? What I want you todo is

pass the word, tell everybody they'recoming. When

theystop, that's wherethey'llstay,okay? They're

notgoing tomove around. And then whenyou seethem,

you call me. But they'renotcoming in.

STEVE: I don'tlikethis, David. I don't

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36

like it at all.

JIM: It's, it's only three vehicles.

STEVE: Well, what is the -- there, there is

not a good reason, from our perspective, why you're

doing such a thing at this point of time.

JIM: Well, it's foryour safety --

STEVE: No, it's not. It's not at all. I

see ~- Idon't see that.

JIM: Well,there's already been too much

bloodshed, Steve, and --

STEVE: And you wantto cause more.

JIM: No.

STEVE: Is that the idea?

JIM: N0.

STEVE: .Well, then why are you bringing such

things?

JIM: No, no, we don't -

STEVE: You see what we're doing?We're

moving on, aren't we? We keepon moving out, and now

you want to bring something so close. And what, what

kind of vehicles are you talking about?

JIM: Well,we'vegot --the reason we're

doing it is we'vegot newpersonnel, we'rechanging

shifts. We've got other agents -- -

STEVE: You don't, don't-Jim, you don't

need to tell me why you'redoing it. I mean, it's

37

quite obvious why you'redoing it.

JIM: Well,no. You rememberlastnight when

you saw all those men moving? ,,W_

STEVE: I never did. -

¢~JIM: Well,I know, but your guys did, okay?

we're puttinga stop to that. We're notgoing tohave

anybody moving like these ~- whoever was out there,

snipers, whatever. We're notgoing tohave that.

STEVE: I ended up believing you, remember?

You -- I tooka littletime each time and then we

workedit out even then.

JIM: Right. Remember todaywhen you toldme

those menwere at the fence? We're notgoing to havethat -- i

End of Tape #8.!

.~

_ v __


TAPE #9

3/1/93

that,

there

this?

the

are

same thing

start tape #9!

STEVE: Where did

order to do that?

JIM: Well, I don

so many officers.

STEVE: I thought

JIM: Yeah, we ar

STEVE: Okay, why

JIM: Well, I kno

STEVE: The same

JIM: Yeah. Well

STEVE: Do you un

2

they get the command to do

't know.You know, so ~-

all of you were together on

e. But there's alot of

people hereand,you know, theymoved upcloser than

they should have, so we pulled them back. But these --

don't you,why don'tyou --

this? We'reworking alongwith you on this.

w, but I don't-- we don't

want people around there on foot. We don't--

goes, we don't wantyou

there. Do you wantus to set somepeople upon the

edge soyour peopleor ours don't goany -- It's the

,you --

derstand, Jim?

JIM: Steve, I do. But, look, there'san

STEVE TO UNIDENTI

advantage here for you, okay? That is --

FIED PARTY: What's the

advantage forus to have threeof the heavy vehicles

sitting right on theedge ofthe property?He's tryingto say it's toour advantage,because thatway wewon't

I

3

have peoplethat we see movingaround andthey won'teither.

real.

things.

JIM: Hey, Steve.

STEVE: Jim, you know, David's sayingget

JIM: You'll, you'll beable to see these

STEVE: Yeah, we could see achopper. We

could see what you pulled in the front. I don'tcare

where it

vehicles

is, when it'sthatclose - What kind of

are you talking about?

JIM: Well, they're --

STEVE: Somekind of armored vehicles?

JIM: Yeah.It's what they call an APC.

STEVE: APC, total armored vehicle.

JIM: You can't shoota bullet through it.

STEVE: I know you can't.

JIM: Yeah. That's, that's,that's whywewant to put it there.

and --

guns off

STEVE: I'msure, so thatyou can shoot at us

JIM: N0.

STEVE: -~ so forth.

JIM: There'sno guns on them. We took the

You can look at them.There's no --

STEVE: Howmany guysare going to be in each

I 92

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92

,-

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49

have their mothers. And I want you, and Iwant you to

do is talk to David. Well, we've gotto get these two

guys out right now, these two kids, because the car's

waiting.

SITA: Okay.

JIM: But I want you to think about it and I

want you to talk to Steve and David about some of the

mothers coming, and also, you know, some of the kids

and -~ I don'twant to rush

SITA: I want all

JIM: I, I'mjust

wound and infections and --

okay? And I think he wants

the kids out.

concerned that David's

I'mjustworried about him,

to keep going a little

longer than I do because I'mworried about his

condition. I can get you out of there.

SITA: NO.

JIM: All right, I'll tell you what, you go

ahead and take those kids now.

SITA: Okay.

JIM: Okay, Sita.

SITA: Okay, here's Steve.

JIM: All right.

STEVE: Okay, Jim.

JIM: All right.

job.

STEVE: Yeah, she

She, she'sdoing a good

was getting pretty broke up

I92

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50

right then.'

SITA: Yeah, she loves those kids, man, Ican

tell.She needs to be with her kids, though.

STEVE:She knows. She's just concerned

about someof theseothers, too. Shewants to

encourage them, that's why,you know, she's talkingto

some of these other -- .

JIM: Well, Ifeel like, I feel likeSita

trusts me, though. _

STEVE: Well, she does.

JIM: And --

SITA: Youknow,she has said thatright along. She definitely likesyou.

JIM: Yeah. Well, she's been real good. I

don'tknowhow wewould have done it without her or

you. I mean, you guys have been great.It's just hard

to workout thesethings.

STEVE: You know, we'venever been in

anything like this.

JIM: But, listen, we have gotten - This

is -- the wayyou're goingand thewaywe'reworking

together, we'regoing to, we'regoingto resolve it.

STEVE: Well, you know,we'retrying to

keeping on plugging on. Youknow,it gets so hard

because people are getting emotional in here and

they're, they'rescared, youknow.A lot of them are

.

51

terrified. I

JIM: Yeah. Well, I can understand that.

And Ithink you, you know, you may come to a point when

you all get together with David and you say David, you

know, wewantto go out andwe want to go out as a

group. We are a group. We are --

STEVE: Some of them here, that's what

they're talkingabout wanting to do.

JIM: Yeah, Imean, we're onepeople, we

want to stay together and we want to all come out, you

know. You'llbe saving his life,man, I'm tellingyou

you'll besaving his life. I mean, I, I know you love

him more than anything, between you and me. Between

you and me, you love the guy. Come on.

STEVE: Well,you know, I, I like everybody,

I do. You know, I --

JIM: Yeah, but you love that guy.

STEVE: Well, I appreciate him. Ihave a

great, you know, Ido, Ido love the guy alot.

JIM: Imean, you love that guy. Come on. I

It's not just like a,a friend. Imean, you've gotat

deep love for this guy.

STEVE: Oh, you know, Ihave, though, that

for a lot of people, Ireally do. You know, I mean,

he, he'sshown mea lot and shareda lot and, you know,

I haven't-I'veseenwhat he'sbeen sayingand, you

rk

;' 21

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52

know, I'vehad to wrestle with it myself and, you know,

it's anup and down thing for sure. But --

JIM: Well --

STEVE: Yeah, let's keepon working on this.

I mean, there'sa greater satisfaction to accomplishing

something --

JIM: Steve --

STEVE: Yeah?

JIM: --I want to give you something to, to

think about.

but

and

got

you

STEVE: All right.

JIM: Okay? I don'tknow if I can do this,

what I'mgoing to do isI'mgoing to go back there

talk to some commanders.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: These guys are in here, man, they've

scrambled eggson their hats and generalsstars,

know.

STEVE: Right. '

JIM: And I want to tell them about our

conversations.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: And I'm goingto see if, just a

possibility now --

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: Okay, the possibility now, we

C

1

S3

1 understand?

2STEVE: Okay.

3 JIM: 'Cause Idon'twantyou to get mad if,

4if Ican'twork it out. That if I was ableto get I

5mean a major, major broadcastof your word out --

6STEVE: Um-hum.

7JIM: I'm talkingabout -- I'm nottalking _ Babouttheradiostation in Dallas.I'm talkingabout

9 some major thing. _

10 * STEVE: Okay.

11JIM: Would youall come out? I mean, would12: you all --

13 STEVE: Can I, can Iput it to David, because

14 that'swhat he'sbeentalking about?

15 JIM: Okay. I mean --

16 STEVE: Imean, even tonight-- What is it,

17it'sMondayandwhat about --Isit a possibilitymaybe18_ of Ted Koppel or something?

19JIM: I meansomething, somethingthatwould20 bedynamic.

I 21STEVE: Yeah.

22JIM: I mean,you know,I'm not-- You'dhave23 to let us workout the, the details, but --

' 2 4192 A srsva = Right.

25 JIM: -- it's just a possibility that--

Don't putalot of things on meI can'tdeliver.

4

v

»

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11

<

,.

l

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54

STEVE: Yeah, I understand.

JIM: You know, Ted Koppel and all these news

stars, you know. You, you leave it to me to get

something that will be acceptable to you, if we_can

work it out.

' s'r2vs=Uh-huh. Well --

JIM: You know, maybe something that's more,

you know, Ted Koppel, you know, I mean, who's watching

that? I mean, I need to watch -- to get it to the

people who are religious.

STEVE: Well, let me mention it to him, at

_least, here.

JIM: Yes. Okay, let's see, did -- Steve?

STEVE TO KORESH: He'snot promising or

anything, he doesn't know if he can even do it. If

it's possible if hecould put you in touch withthe,

the best news coverage possible -- I mentioned like the

Ted Koppel --he sayswould you as a group come out

together and --

MR. KORESH: Can'tdo that.

STEVE: Well, he'ssaying hecan't do that

because he wantsthem to have the choice, you know,

every one of them, and he don't -He wantsthem to be

able to I guess move ontheir own without --Some of

them, you know, they'rescared and all the rest.

JIM: Yeah. Well, look, maybe you can talk

l

55

to him, you know.

STEVE: Yeah. _

JIM: I think it would be something real

positiveAand, you know, real positive for everybody

concerned. And we'd getyou out safely, we'd get t¢

treat his wounds.

STEVE: Well, he was wondering there couldn't

be at least a line openedup back to the radio or

something. -

JIM: Well, you know, we can work on that.

STEVE: Could you? While we're movingwith

the kids, could you do that?

am. Well, 1-11, 1'11go check on it. 1'11

try to --

STEVE: I mean, you know, Alex, you know, you

can tell the guy'snot a, a guy that's given to

positiveness over religious_things anyway. So that's

fine, you know, if he wants to ask his tough questions

or whatever. V

JIM: Steve.

.STEVE: Yeah?

JIM: The commanders are -- they'reasking me

where's thekids.Have they left?

' STEVE: I don't- Just a minute, let me find

out, because she'snot here any longer. Have the kids

left?

.

<

[ 1

I

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left?

JIM: Send them up to the water tower now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Have the kids

STEVE: Okay. Yeah, they --

End of Tape #9.! _

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1415

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'u.s. DEPARTMENTop THE TREASURYBUREAU or ALCOHOL, TOBACCO aFIREARMS

TAPE #1oA

3/1/93

C

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2

small child ren! crying in background of most of tape!

STEVE: Really, it is.

JIM: It is. It's going good andit's going

to go good.

ASTEVE: It feels like being on a -- up and

down on waves here, but --

JIM: Yeah, I know.

STEVE: Should I callyou back then or are

you going to callme back or --

JIM: Tell you whatI want to do is justget -- ~

STEVE: Pardon?

JIM: I want to just get the kids -- I want

to just tell you we got them safe.

STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PARTY: He's goingto

work on that. He said he'sgoing to work on getting a

line for you there, you know, with the radiostation or

whatever.

JIM: Steve?

STEVE: You know thereis one thing. A

couple of these guys that haven'tmadeup their mind,

they're, they'resaying thereare guys in camouflage

that they, thatthey see them right now. They've got

like brush and stuff stuck in their helmets. They're

in camouflage, they're, they'repositively on the

property. You know, we, we -- You know, you said about

92

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3

those --

JIM: Okay.

STEVE: --those kind of vehicles being

there?

»JIM: Yeah.

STEVE: Well, that - Okay, you, you said it,

we were going along and,you know, the, the-- we're

moving with the kids. But who are they? I mean, what

arethey doing there? You know, Ireally thought you

had control over these vehicles.

JIM: You know, there'sa lot of perimeter

movement, Iunderstand that.

STEVE: Imean that's thekind of thing that

makessome of thesepeople nervous. They don't wantto

be, you know, they'rewondering what'sgoingon and

they'reafraidto move. A lot of them are sitting here

kind of likealmost frozen.

JIM: Yeah, Iknow, but nobody'scoming in.

You have my word. Iknow there's perimeter --

STEVE: Yeah.

JIM: -- people, Steve. I, Iknow thereis.,

STEVE: What are they doing on the property

and all that?

JIM: Yeah, I'm notmaking a secretof that.

But I guesswe've got to, you know, we've gotto kind

of, like I saidearlier, you know, get more toward the

92 92 92

92 1

4

brass tacks, and that is --

STEVE: Well, that's what we want to do, but,

you know, I mean, you did tell us, you know, that they

wouldn't beon the property. And you mentioned where

the others would be and, and you told the truth.

JIM: Yeah.

STEVE: So I, I'm just wondering why those,

those guys are where they're atthere.

JIM: Yeah, I'm goingto have to get back

with those commanders.

STEVE: Can you?

JIM: Yeah, I will. I'm goingto have to go

back --

STEVE: I, I really believe it'll make it

easier if you don't-- if there's noone like that.

There's goingto be people here that are going to be

feeling much more safe and, and -- I mean, cause, you

know, it'snight, they don't knowwhat'sgoingon, they

don't knowwhere these people mightend up being.

They're, they'rescared.

' JIM: I know. Look, here's what --

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: Here's what we'regoingto have to do.

STEVE: All right. '

JIM: As soon as we get thesekids hooked up,

I'mgoingto go back and talk to these commanders --

E 92

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5

STEVE: All right. Okay.

JIM: -- about that perimeter motion, okay?

swsvs: Right .

JIM: And, and some of these issues we've

discussed. A

STEVE: Right, okay.

JIM: I've got to round them up. There's B

bunch of them in here.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: And --

STEVE: And call me back then?

JIM: No, because I want to hook these kids

up, okay? And, and, and, and David said that he wanted

to keep the kids coming out.

srsvs: Right .

JIM: And you've gotthese other two, Chrissy

and ~- You've gotBrian and Jake are coming out and

you've got Chrissy and Scott.

STEVE: Yeah.

JIM: So what, what I want you to do, I've

got Henry here, okay?

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: He'sbeen with me all through this.

STEVE: All right.

JIM:_ Okay? Helping me, setting up the car,

doing everything, okay?

E .

6

1 STEVE: Yeah. "S

2 JIM: He's personalwith me. I know the guy,

3 he'sgolden, okay? We've workedevery -- Everything

4we've worked out stands.

5 ASTEVE: Okay.

6 JIM: Okay, he'snot going to make any

7 lchanges tothe, you know, he's goingto try to work

8with you. He knows all the agreements, he sat and went

9 through everything. '

10 STEVE: Okay.

11 JIM: Okay?

12 STEVE: Yeah.

13 JIM: And he, he really is a good fellow,

14' okay?And I want you to just talk with him on the

15 mechanics of getting Chrissy and Scott out, okay? And

16 then, and then, you know, just to continue with it,

17 okay?

18 STEVE: Yeah.

19 V JIM: While I go try to work on these

20 commanders. As long as we'redoing this, I mean, it's

21positive.

22ASTEVE: Okay.

23 JIM: Okay?

24 STEVE: Is it okay if I get off the phone

25 here and talk with them then?

JIM: Okay, wait. There's avehicle

92

1 approaching.

C2STEVE

3 JIM:

4 92 STEVE

5here and-

6 JIM:

7STEVE

8 JIM:

9 STEVE

10 JIM:

11 talk to Henry a

12 you know, David

13 has amind to.

14 STEVE

15 saying to them.v

. 16 look, you know,

17 now he's laying

18

19 JIM:

20 STEVE

. 31

92 22 JIM:

23

24 I STEVE

, 25

JIM:

7

:Okay.

You know --

:.1 tellyou, I'm soweak I'mstanding

Just hang with me one second, Steve.

:Okay.

Listen --

:I'm tired.

-- what I want you -- After, after you

while, and he'llgive you a break, but,

can convince everyone to come out if he

: Well,you know, that's what he'sbeen

He again said to these people, he said

he's alreadytold them. And like right

back because he's, heis, you know, I'm

telling you he can hardlytalk.

Yeah.

= He mustered up what he could to talk

with you, but he is tired.

Well,you, you've gotto work with him,

you've got to - y w

: Well,that's what I need to do now.

That's what I wanted to do.

Okay. Let me just tellyou we've got

|

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the kids --'

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: -- and then you can work out with Henry

just atime to, you know, to keep bringing people out

and, yousknow,the kids anyway. Trust me, Steve, Henry

won't letyou down now. Iwouldn't give you anybody

that you couldn't trust.

STEVE: Right.

JIM: I mean, the guy'sfirst-rate, okay?

STEVE:Okay.

JIM: Everything hesays right down the line,

okay? Okay, the cars are there.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: The commanders are telling me the cars

are there.You okay?

STEVE:Yeah. Oh, I'mgetting tired. There,

there, you know, there'speople all over the place here

and --

JIM: You know -- Okay, the kids are out?

You know, you guys talkabout it. Nobody'scoming in

there.

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: You'vegot my word, its solid, it's

1,000 percent absolute, okay? '

STEVE: Okay.

JIM: Iknow, Iknow thateverybody's

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skittish, but, you know, we've justgot to work on the

kids and we've gotto let -- What are they saying on

the radio, 10 kids?

STEVE: Yeah. Wait. Indiscernible voice in

background! David, he believes that you'refixing to

hit us tonight, he says.

JIM: No, we are not fixing to hit you. That

is not true.

STEVE: I mean,here's, here's this crazy

radio again, you know. Imean, where, where are they

getting that information?

JIM: You know, that is baloney. It's

rubbish.

. STEVE: The newsmedia was told to get out of

the way and to back way off, much farther back than

what they are even now. Why is that?

JIM: Nobody'scoming in there. A thousand

percent absolute guarantee. I'mpromising you, it's

true, okay? Do we got those kids? Okay. Steve?

STEVE: Yeah.

JIM: Let mecheck here. Hold on a second.

STEVE: Theseguys arebeing toldto moveback ahalf-mile more even for safety. Safety of what?

' JIM: Okay. I'msorry, for what?

STEVE: We'relistening -- Right now on the

newsall the press is, is being told to moveback a

.

QO

10

half-mile more for their own safety. What are they

talking about?

JIM: Yeah. Oh, well, what they'redoing is

they don'twant them inany of the - They'vebeen

crawling down our backs, all those reporters. Crawling

down our backs.

STEVE: well, their comments are, you know,

for safety, that they don't gethurt and so forth. I

B18311 , WOW -

JIM: Oh, yeah, but that's not -That's

normal. We don't wantthem there. I mean, they've

raced in real fast early and, you know,now we're just

trying to get them back and clear the road. It's

nothing,trust me. And it means nothing.I'd liketo -- Tell you what, I'dlike to move them back to

Arkansas, they'resuch a pain inthe neck.

STEVE: I suppose.

JIM: And the policemen are just glad, you

know, yougo out and the lieutenant says get rid of all

the reporters. What do you thinkthe policeman does?

Tries to kick their butt back amile, so don'tit's

no big thing.Okay, look --

STEVE:Yeah.

JIM: - I've got-- Hold on. .

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: We'vegot the

kids. They'reontheir way back. We haveanother car

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11

in to pick up two more.

JIM: Okay, we'vegot the kids.

STEVE: Okay. '

JIM:They're safe.

ASTEVE: Okay.

JIM: They're on the way back here.

STEVE: Canyou -- Can I get off the phone

and then have them call again? And we're workingon

the other two. _

JIM: All right.

STEVE: I'mgoing to go talk -- try to talk

to these mothers.

JIM:Okay.

STEVE: And try to get them going then right

away. 'Causeright now they're trying to decide. If I

could encourage them somehow.

Hello, Jim?

JIM:Hold on, hold on aminute.

STEVE : Okay .

JIM: Hold on. They're,they're goingto

tell mesomething from the car.

STEVE: All right.

[gap]

JIM:Okay, I'm sorry.Okay, I'lltell you

what, let's --~

STEVE : Okay .

r

s

I

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down here

able to.

I'm still

think --

12

JIM: --can we take, take abreak? .

STEVE: Oh, thanks.

JIM: Can you --

STEVE: I'mgoing to actually kind of lay

JIM: Okay.

STEVE: - in just a minute.

JIM: Take abreak. Can you call me here?

STEVE: Yeah. Well, so far, I haven't been

I tried to call you about 10 minutes ago and

not able to get out.

JIM: Okay.

STEVE: What do you think? Is it-- Do you

JIM: All right, hold on, let me check on it.

STEVE: All right.

JIM: Okay.

STEVE: When, when should I call you?

JIM: Have you got that set up? Talking to

someone else.! Okay, listen, Steve --

set it to

STEVE: Yeah. 4g

JIM: -- you pick up the phone --

s'rr~:v.-=3 =Right .

JIM: -- and I'mgoing to have the technician

ring my number.

STEVE: Okay. You mean like right now, just

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to try it?

H18.

JIM:

STEVE

JIM:

STEVE

JIM:

STEVE

JIM:

STEVE

JIM:

STEVE

STEVE

HENRY

STEVE

HENRY:

STEVE

HENRY

STEVE

HENRY:

STEVE

HENRY:

STEVE

HENRY:

STEVE

13

You want to try it right now?

If you want.

Yeah.

I mean, would that be the thing or --

Yeah. Let's hang up, hang up.

Okay.

Just leave it hang up for 15 seconds.

All right.

And then pick it up and see if you get

Okay, I'll try.

* ** 1Q

Hello?

Steve?

Yeah.

This is Henry.

Henry?

Yeah.

Oh, okay. Henry, it'snot working.

Did you dial?

Yeah, I did.

Don't dial. Just pick it up and --

Oh, I see.

- just hold it.

Just -- Okay.

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,-

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HENRY: You don't haveto dial at all, just

pick it up and just hold it.

STEVE: I see. Okay, let me try to - Can I

try it again?

AHENRY

STEVE

STEVE

HENRY:

STEVE

HENRY

STEVE

HENRY

STEVE

Sure.

Okay, thanks. I'll call you back.

iiiii

Hello?

Hello, Steve?

Yes.

This is Henry.

Henry, how areyou doing?

Good. How are you doing?

Well,I tried to call you back but I

guess it didn't work.

HENRY: Okay. We have the kids here, but

just before we get to the kids, we have the APC's that

are going to be moving in.

STEVE: The, the which?

HENRY: The carriers thatare moving into the

general perimeter of the area. Remember, we talked

about that earlier?

STEVE: Aren'ttherealready three here or

something?

HENRY: Well, those, those are the ones that

we talked about, but they have never been -- they have

1

15

never moved intoposition. They're goingto be moving

into position now. I want to let you know that so

that -

STEVE: Okay.

aHENRY: Okay?

STEVE: Yeah. They're movingthree -- What

are they called?

HENRY: APC's.

STEVE: --_APC'sintoposition now that they

had mentioned, which they hadn't doneyet, Talking to

someone else.!

HENRY: But they have no -- Yeah, they don't

have the, they don'thave the capability to shoot.

STEVE: Okay.

HENRY: Okay?

STEVE: Okay.

HENRY: The, the cannon and the muzzles were

removed, so everything should be fine.

s'rsv.=:= Okay.Unidentified voicein


HENRY: Okay, and we have the kids --

STEVE: It'snot Jim. Henry, what happened

to Jim then?

l HENRY: He is working on-- I'mnot sure

exactly what he's workingon. He'sworking withthe,

with the --some of our brass on working out some of

I 92 92

16

the details. What we'dlike to try todo is we'dlike

totry to continue bringing kids out and any other

people that are ready tocome out.

STEVETO UNIDENTIFIED PARTY: Okay.S0

they'd liketocontinue bringing the kids out and any

others thatwant to come out. He'stalking tothe

brass, I don'tknow aboutwhat. Unidentified voice in


STEVE: He wantsJim to give him a call as

soon as the van is here, I guess. .

HENRY:Okay. Is Jake -- I have Jake here,

or Jacob. .

STEVE:Okay.

HENRY: Who would Jacob be talking to?

STEVE: Who would Jake be talking to? Hehas

Jake there, of course, and little Brian. Unidentified

female voice in background not discernible.!

[gap]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Jake?

HENRY:This is Henry. Who is this?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Can I have

Jake, please? _

HENRY:Yes.you certainly may.Hold on justa second.

JAKE: Hi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Hi. I love

14

17

1 you. I love you. Tell Brian, okay? Tell Brian I love

2 him, okay? I'vegot to go. Put the other guyback on

3 the phone.

4JAKE: Bye.

S A

6 HENRY: Hello?

I love you. Tell me, tell me you love me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Bye.

7 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:Put thé guy

8 éback on the phone

9 HENRY :

10

11HENRY:

12 [gap]

13 HENRY:

[gap]

HENRY:15

16 STEVE:

17 HENRY:

18 STEVE:

19 then or --

20 HENRY:

21 he'stalking to,

22 STEVE:

23

24

25

Huh?

Hello?

Hello?

Hello?

Henry?

Yes.

So is Jim

Well, not

to some of

Well, can

soon as he's readythen,because the next two --

HENRY: We'reready now. If you're

to send two other people now, I'll, I'llwork

arrangements right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Okay.

92getting back on the phone

1 just now. He's, youknow,

our ~°- .

you have him call bank as|

ready to,

tose

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STEVE: Well,that's whatDavid ishoping,that, you know, to try --

HENRY: Okay, that's fine. We'll work it

right now.

ASTEVE: All right .

HENRY: Are you, are you ready to send them

right now? A

STEVE: Well, he mentioned -- What,did you

want to talk to Jim about the next two that you have

or -- Yeah, he says him and Jim'sgot the deal going

and he wants to keep on talking with Jim, I guess.

HENRY: Well, I'd like to - Can I talk to

him for just a second?

STEVE: Okay. He wants to talk to yow.

MR. KORESH: Hello?

HENRY: How are you doing?

MR. KORESH: Kind of weak. How are you boys

doing.

HENRY: How do you feel now?

MR. KORESH: How do I feel now?

HENRY: Um-hum. ~

MR. KORESH: Just a little pain.

HENRY: Okay. What we'dlike to do, David,

is we'dlike to continue working aswe were before.

We'd liketo continue bringing out additional children,

as best aswe can, with the same agreement that we had

19

before. And we'd liketo work, if possible, you know,

everybody has a concern here about you. We feel that,

you know, that you'renot really taking care of

yourself. We don't wantanything to happen to you.

We'd likefor you to consider coming out yourself.

We want everybody to come out, we want

everybody to come out of this alive. We don't wantyou

to give up, and we feel that you are. That'sa great

concern to, to all of us.

MR. KORESH: Well, like I was telling Jim,

you know, I told Jim to, to look into that Bible. I

told him to look into Revelation4and 5. I told him

to look into those seals. Now, if you look at the, the

fifth seal, if you look at the sixth seal, if you look

into Isaiah 13, if you lookin Joel 2, if you look into

the back of Nahum, what's fixingto happen has already

been foretold. I teach seven seals.

Now, whatever that means, you know, I'd like

to talk with you guys in full.I'd like you to grab a

Bible, sit down and follow me word by word, see what

the ancients have foresaw. And that way we'dhave a

better understanding. But I realize that, you know,

most of you are not ready for that. You've gotyour

own wayof doing things. ~ A

HENRY: Well,one of the concerns that we

have, you know, that I feel that you may have is you

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92.

,

mentioned

calling y

may in fa

whereas i

save your

20

earlier that you felt that people were

oua cult leader, okay? If you giveup, that

ct be the impression that everybody has,

f you continue to fight in terms of trying to

life and continue to lead your people, that's

not the impression that will be created.

And your

person.

everybody

need you,

MR. KORESH: Look -- .

HENRY: You'vebeen a family person, okay?

family -- _

MR. KORESH:Oh, I'mdefinitely a family

HENRY: And your family needs you. And

wants to see you come out of this alive.

MR. KORESH: Look, Henry --

HENRY: Everybody needs you. These people

the kids need you.

MR. KORESH: You're notgoing to listen to

me, are you?

fixing to

a governm

ancient e

HENRY: I will listen to you.

M. KORESH: Okay, you'relistening now?

HENRY: Yes, I am.

MR. KORESH:Okay. The event that you're now

witness is you're fixingto see a government,

ent that'sbeen blessed --See, there was an

mpire called Babylon.

HENRY: Um-hum.

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21

MR. KORESH:Land of the Chaldeans. And

before Babylon ruled the then-known world, God had a

people that he brought out of Egypt and God had given

them laws and statutes and God had stated unto Israel,

which wasacult because they had one leader, Moses,

and one righthand man, Aaron, and God says and~

promised that if they will keep his laws he'll make

them the head of all nations. If they break his laws,

he'll scatter them amongst the nations and the nations

of the heathens will rule over them.

So for many, many hundreds of years God

forebores his people. But, finally, the days came when

Israel became worse than the heathens. So God arose

prophets such as Isaiah, Hosea, Obadiah, Malachi,

Zephaniah, Habakkuk, you know, these prophets, Nahum.

And Godforetold in these prophetshow thatthey'd be

scattered amongst the nations. In the Book of Daniel,

Daniel was shown, while under the Chaldean captivity,

he was shown that the nations of the earth that shall

rule over God's peoplewill be symbolized as one great

image, and the image will be head of gold, arms of

silver, belly of brass, legs of iron, feet part of iron

and part of clay. .

And Daniel says to the king, Nebuchadnezzar,

the highest ruling position of the land inthat day,

Daniel says thou oh, King, of this head of gold, and

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22

after thee shallarise another kingdominferior to

thee, and yet athird kingdom of brass. And then a

fourth kingdom, dreadful and terrible, it shall cometh

the whole world.

A HENRY:Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: And then there shall be a

kingdom that shall be at the ten toes, partlystrong

and partlybroken. So when Rome split up under the

nomadic kingdoms, it fell into many different kingdoms.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH:We knowit asEurope. Now,

Daniel goes on to explain that while Europe is still in

existence, he goes on to say indiscernible! behold a

stone, came and smote the image in the feet and they

had gold and silver and brassand iron, was all made as

the chaff of the summer threshing floors. Well, this

stone is the subject of which the Book of Revelation

talksabout. It talks about thatwhich must be

hereafter, that God will one day in the future, in the

end of the world, shall come and siton his thronein

heaven, and there'll be one question asked in heaven.

The question is who is worthy to open this

book? The book is in the righthand of God. And to

lose these seven seals thereof, scripture clearly

teaches Christendom, that no man in heaven nor on earth

neither under earth was able to openand he looked

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23

thereon.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORBSH: But the lamb, the lamb is

symbolized as alamb with seven eyes and seven horns.

You know, God creates things in seven days, doesn't he?

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: Okay. There's only one many who

knows what that book teaches. But for the sake of

humanity, the acid testrevolving around the subjects

in this book revolve around Christ in heaven, opening

the seals, and what is witnessed is aman on a white

horse, aman on a red horse, black and pale. Dead

souls under the altar described to God because of their

blood that'sbeen shed, and then the time whenthesun

and moon and stars will be darkened, the heavens will

part as ascroll and the great man, mighty men, free

men, bonded men shallcry to the rocks and mountains to

fall on them and hide them from the face of him that

sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb, but

the great David'swrathhas come.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: So thesesubjects are mysteries,

cause nobody really has areal thorough opinion to

reallyknow the realmeanings of thesethings. But in

Chapter 10, after the student of scripture is read and

become familiar with the symbols, in Chapter 10, after

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talking about an army of 200 million that overthrow the

world, it talksabout amighty angel comingdown from

heaven. And he has in his hand a little book and it's

opened and seven thunders are uttered, seven thunders.

And JohnAwastold thatwhen there's time.nolonger this

mystery of God, this revelation of JesusChrist, the

seven sealswill be finished, as God has declared to

his servants the prophets.

HENRY: Umfhum.

MR. KORESH: So in this 22nd chapter, after a

person takes the time to read these things, it's very

clear, the statement, Christ saysI Jesus have sent my

angel to testify to these things in the churches. I am

the root and the offspring of David. Now, Ancient

David was a great king, wasn'the?

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: He's theone thattook his

little slingstone and slew the great giantGoliath.

HENRY: Right.

MR. KORESH:Yeah, okay. So what happened

was he saysbehold, I come quickly. My reward is with

me, to give it to every man according as his work shall

be.

HENRY: Um-hum. v

MR. KORESH= Now, when Christ comes, the

question is going to be what did the father give him

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that no other manin heavenwas worthyto receive? No

man was worthy. A book, right?

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: God gave him a book, a

revelation of himself that the father claims he's the

author of this book. And when the lamb comes, he's

going to bring this book and mankind is supposed to

find out that it is the Bible, the Bible which the

prophets of God having spoken by the spirit that God

gave them, having volumed atestament in regards to

those events that must be fulfilled in the latter days.

Now, in Revelation 13, John witnesses in regards to the

seventh seal, John sees a beast.

This beast has ahead like a lion, abody

like a leopard, feet of abear. In Daniel 7, Daniel

foretold that the empires of Babylon -- Persia, Greece

and Rome would be symbolized, Babylon as a lion, --

Persia as a bear, Greece as aleopard. And the ourth

beast, he said, would devour all the three beasts

before it and conquer the world. Now, that was Rome.

Daniel also says in the days of this kingdom they will

kill the prince of the covenant. They could change

God's times and God'slaws and place abomination to

make desolate false religion. We know the only true

religion is the religion of God.

HENRY: Um-hum.

times of

written i

them for t

commit my

word. By

And by his

you're no

taking pla

that day t

let thine

the Lord,

Nahum, it

for insta

has the ke

the Psalms

of the fut

law --

there's a

26

MB. KORESH:Now, Christ died during the

Rome and onthe cross. Very clearly, it's

nthe gospel records. He said father, forgive

hey know not what they do.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: And then he said intothy hand I

spirit. And the hand of God has a book, the

the word of God, God made heaven and earth.

word, there was prophets. The events that

w witnessing are taking place. Now, what is

ce? Well, in the Book of Micah, it says in

hey shall gather together and they shall say

bedefiled that they know not the thoughts of

neither do they understand his counsel.

All of the prophets through theBook of

talks about Messiah, it talks about, well,

nce, to make it real simple, Christ says he

y of David in revelation. So inthe Book of

, for instance Psalms 2, David sees a vision

ure, of a confrontation between man and man's

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: -- and God and God's law.

HENRY: Um-hum. l"

MR. KORESH: Now, Revelation 13 tells us that

lamb-like beast that'll rise up, having two

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horns, andit'll speakas adragon. Now,we've gotto

identify what great empire arose up after Europe that's

a great empire that'slamb-like or Christian, but yet

doesn't reallytell the truth. Well, the only great

empire wéve known is the United States of America.

Now, back to Psalms 2, the psalm says why do the

heathen rage? You know, the heathen don't knowGod.

HENRY: Um-hum.

M. KORESH: They don'tknow his word.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: And they get angry.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: It says, and the people imagine

vain things, for the leaders of the earth and the

rulers take counsel together against the Lord --

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: -and against his anointed.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH= That's Christ, you see?

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: Saying let us breakhis bands

asunder. Now, what arethe seven bands that Christ

promises to bring when he comes again? The seven

seals, right?

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: But Zachariah and the other

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prophets saythat the world will not regard these

messages of mercy. They have no interest in being

instructed by anyone but themselves. Now, they say let

us break his bands asunder, let us cast his cords away

from us.*But scripture says, which is taking place

right now, it says that he thatsits in the heavens ~-

That's thefather, you see?

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: --shall laugh, for the Lord

shall have them, the heathen, in confusion. See, the

heathen don'tknow what they're doing. And this time

they can'tbe forgiven because this time they willfully

reject the subject which so plainly has been laid in

the Book of Revelation, asubject which everyone is to

be very familiarized with for the latter days.And

yet, they'reto understand by earnest study that these

things will remain amystery until Christ comes again.

HENRY: Um~hum.

MR. KORESH: To reveal these mysteries.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: So the heathen and their tactics

in dealing with aperson based upon rumors and based

upon their laws, they fail to understand that God also

has alaw and God also has a kingdom and God also has a

key. so what takesplace, it says, then shall the Lord

speak unto them in his wrath. That'swhathappens

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during the sixth seal.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: The sun andmoon and stars is

darkened, the heaven departs as a scroll, and the great

men of the earth cry to the rocks and mountains to hide

them from the face of the reality that they would not

know aforetime what Godsaid will be. So they end up

fulfilling prophecy, not knowing what side they're

doing. But to the wise, when God speaksin his wrath,

they already know of the events. And it says yet have

I set my king up on my holy hillof Zion.

So irrespective of what attitude the heathen

may take against the truth of the seven seals or the

man that is trying to teach the seven seals,

irrespective, God'skingdom, the stone, God himself is

going to intervene and he's goingto hit the image in

the feet and it'sall going to blow away, and Gods

going to take the jurisdiction and power from all the

great men of the earth and all that the prophets have

spoken is to be fulfilled.

HENRY: Um-hum.

QR. KORESH:Now, thepsalm continuesto sayI will declare the decree, the Lord has said unto me,

thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee. So we

know the anointed one is Christ, don't we?Christ is

the Son of God in Psalms 2, right? ' .

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30

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: And it says the father says to

the son ask of me and I will give thee the heathen for

thine inheritance and the other most parts of the earth

for thy possession, for thou shalt dash the heathen to

pieces with arod of iron and shall break them as a

potters vessel.Now,that's pretty bad, isn'tit?HENRY: Umhum.

MR. KORESH: I mean,nobody wants tobe hurt,

do they?

HENRY: No, really.

MR. KORESH:So that'swhy inPsalms 2the

subject is clear, the mission of the lamb, the anointed

one, is to teach the seals, okay?

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: Now, the reason why the prophecy

is written is because it continues tosay now,

therefore, be wise, ye rulers of the world, be

instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the Lord

with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the son,

least he be angry, and ye perish in the way when is

wrath is kindled butalittle. Now, I'mnotmad at you

guys, you know.

HENRY: Well, and we'renot mad atyou,

either.

MR. KORESH: Well, but your show of arms is

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definitely bigger than myshow of arms. So inPsalms

18, the psalm hasmade very plain when it says I will

love the Lord for he is my rock and my salvation, my

buckler and the horn of my salvation. It says I will

call upon him so shall I be delivered from my enemies,

for they were too strong for me. And the day of my

calamity; and this is a calamity,really, they

prevented me. And then it goes on to talkabout a

terrible event that takes place afterwards, because,

you know, you all guys are too big for me.

_ You know, your laws are more numerous than

the TenCommandments, youknow, yourweapons arebigger, your forces are stronger.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: You know? But not really. You

see, not really. You know, Elijah in his day, the king

of Israel was having to face the Moabites and the

Hittites and they were outnumbered. But what Elijah

said wasthey that be with us are more thanthey that

be with them because unbeknown to the forces of the

heathen who were so boistering of their superior power

they did not see the invisible forces of God, the '

angels of God, you know, just like in the days of

ancient Hezekiah.

HENRY :Um-hum.

MR. KORESH= when the Assyrian armies came

wouldn't he?

92.

15

DAVID: Yeah. I can'tget down there to it

so. Yeah,that's what we'll do.

HENRY: Okay. And you know how everybody's

concerned about money. And I mean everybody is, has a

concern. Can you do me a favor, and can you make it,

you know, like in such a fashion that, that in order to

avoid their wanting to chop it up or to play part of it

or whatever --

DAVID:

air time?

HENRY

DAVID:

HENRY:

keep --

DAVID

HENRY:

there's --

DAVID:

HENRY-

How much, how much does it cost their

Well, that's the

Per minute?

That's the whole

How much does it

I don'thave any

whole thing.

thing. You know, so

cost?

idea. But

Give me the price and I'llpay it.

Oh, I don't have any idea. I have no

idea. But what I'd like to do is I would like for you

to make it as concise and asbrief as you can make it

so that we can be in a situation where your word will,

will get out. Nothing will be chopped off. Your

message will go out as you want it,you know.

DAVID: Well, like I say remember I'll even

16

buy the time. You know?

HENRY: Well, you know, we don'tneed --

DAVID: We will fund it.

HENRY: -- we don'tneed that. We -- what we

want iswe want you to - you were given your

cooperation, and that's whatwe promised what we would

do. So I want to live up to my part of it. Yeah, I

don't needyour money. But Ido need --

Touch tone sounds.!

_ DAVID: Hello? Hello?

HENRY: Jesus.

DAVID: Hello?

HENRY: Hello.

DAVID: Hello. What's goingon now?

HENRY: Who was that?

DAVID: Yeah. Unidentified voice in


HENRY: What -- you know, what I, what I

would like to see is I would like for you to, to

prepare yourself in such a fashion that you get your

message out and --

DAVID: Okay, wait a second.

HENRY: Now, I'ma little bit confused about

one thing. Okay? I, I know thatyou're, that you are

a man of your word number one. And number two, Iknow

that you know what you're talkingabout in terms of

17

theology. I'mnot as -- I'mnot nearly versed as you

are, okay? But one of the concerns that I have is I am

taking youto your word andthat is that you'regoing

to come out and that everybody is going to come out and

this thing is going to be resolved without anybody --

DAVID: Getting hurt.

HENRY: Getting hurt. That includes you.

DAVID: Except for what crimes we have to pay

for what we've committedthat is that. The world so

speaks.

HENRY:And that includes you. Am I correct

in assuming that --

DAVID: No, it's notan assumption. It's a

fact.

HENRY: Okay. Everybody's goingto come out,

and everybody'sgoing to be fine, and there'sgoing to

be no shooting, and there's goingto be nothing to, to

cause anybody to do anything to hurt you. I don'twant

anybody to hurt you. Am I, am I correct in my

assumption?

DAVID: You're correct on that.

HENRY: Okay.

t DAVID: So let's,let -- I got to start

editing thisand, and you got the van down therefor

the children, right?

HENRY: Yes.

DAVID:

coming then, all

HENRY:

what I'mgoing to

is going to stop

van. It's going

18

Okay. Be sure and tell them we're

right?

Okay. Now, now listen, listen to

tell you. I don'tknow if this van

inexactly the same place as the other

to be real close. The only reason

that I'mtelling you that is whoever's goingto take

the kids there, y

because we've had

DAVID:

towers --

HENRY :

DAVID :

HENRY:

be 20 feet back o

parked before. I

whoever it is tha

didn't parkinex

DAVID :

HENRY:

has happened befo

DAVID:

HENRY:

DAVID:

ready and --

HENRY:

ou know,these are two new people,

achanging of a shift, okay? So --

Okay. But just at the water

Right. Right.

-- like it was before.

But, but I mean, you know,they may

r, or 5feet forward from where they

don'twanther to get aconcern,

t's takingthem there well, it's,they

actly the same place. Nothings --

Okay.

-- going to happen other than what

re.

You got aradio communication, right?

Right.

Okay. Like I say, we'll getthe kids

Right.

l

19

DAVID: Are they down there now?

HENRY: Yes. Now what, what we'regoing to

need is I would like to try to start trying to find you

medical help.

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID

HENRY

fine.

No, not yet.

Okay.

Let's get the other done.

Yes, we'll get --no, I mean that's

And I understand that. And I'mnot saying, you

know, I'mgoing to send anybody in there. I want start

preparing to have somethingready for you after you do

your tape and all of that. Okay?

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID

the kids.

HENRY

DAVID

up.

HENRY:

DAVID

Okie doke.

Okay.

Okay. Now I need to -- going to send

Okay.

He's goingto get the equipment set

Okay.

I'm goingto drink a little orange

juice, get my breathup a bit. When I, when I cough,

oh, man. I'll tell you. Anyway never mind.

HENRY: Howmuch time do you think you have?

DAVID: Well, see it's,it's likeI get, I

get renewed. "

4

I

92

fk

192

20

HENRY: Uh-huh.

DAVID: You know, and then, you know, the

pain and all of a sudden Iget where it'slike

something's developinginmy chest. It'slike -- I

don't know.It's, it'skind of like a -- it'snot a

cold it's --

HENRY: Like an infection?

DAVID: Idon't know if it's an infection or

not. It's just -- Idon'tknow. It's just a -- it's

kindof like you know how you feel when you feel like

you're fixing to get the flu?

HENRY: YES.

DAVID: Something like that.

HENRY: Well, are you sure you, are you

sure --

DAVID: You know, you go up and down.

HENRY: Are you sure you don'twant us to

send you some medical help?

DAVID: No, not yet. Let's, let's--

HENRY: Okay.

DAVID: -- we're ona good road right now.

That's whatI've beentrying to --

HENRY: Okay.

DAVID: -- that's whatIwas trying to work

with Jim all along.

HENRY: Okay.

O O

2 1

DAVID: You know, I was trying to get a trust

in him to see if he would, you know, really let me get

these kids out, you know, the way I wanted to get them

out.

* HENRY : Okay .

DAVID: And he's beenvery good to me:

HENRY: Okay. Well --

DAVID: And --

HENRY: -- we want to, we want to continue in

that same vein. We don't wantto change anything or,

or make anything insuch a fashion, you know. And when

you kept tellingme thatthere was somebodyin that

tower or in the roof, I knew thatthere wasn't anybody,

you know, because --

DAVID: We found out what it was. 92

HENRY: Okay. Well, we appreciate, you know,

we appreciate your trusting us. We continue to trust

you.

DAVID: Groaning. ! A

HENRY: We want to continue working in this

fashion. I would like, I would for, you know, [gap] I

would.like for you to start working on that, that tape,

and I will work withyou, and I want you to work with

me.

DAVID: Okie doke. Okay. Let me get off the

phone then. And the kids willbe downthere in just a

second, all right?

HENRY: Okay.

DAVID: Okie doke?

HENRY: Okay.

»DAVID: Okay, thanks.

HENRY: Um-hum.

[gap]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: --and I'm

iii-

getting ready for that.

Okay.Wait one moment. I'll give you to Steve

Henry.

[gap]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER Hello

iii

HENRY: Hello?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER Yeah

HENRY: This is Henry?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER This ls Henry

HENRY: Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER Steve Steve

STEVE

HENRY

STEVE

HENRY:

STEVE:

Hello?

Hi, Steve. Steve?

Yes.

This is Henry.

Oh, hi, Henry.

HENRY:

STEVE:

HENRY:

STEVE:

_ - HENRY:

bring up. David

23

How are you doing?

I'm onthe tired side. Little bit --

Oh, I guess so.

-- little bit slow tonight.

Okay. Couple of things I wanted to

mentioned that he was going to try to

do that audiotape. Is he working on that?

STEVE : You know what, I, I just about 2

minutes ago I was going to go lay down for afew

minutes, and I went past him and hewas almostsnoring.

He, he fell asleep.

HENRY :

STEVE :

HENRY :

STEVE :

mean I --

Oh, he did?

Yeah.

Okay.

So are you working on that? Or I

or I mean have you checked or found out

anything about it or --

HENRY :

to give us a, a tape. And hehad askedsomebody totry

Well, he said he was going to try to,

to go and get some equipment from --

STEVE:

HENRY:

STEVE:

Okay. Yeah, I, I see --

-- the recording studio.

I see something is here right now.

So that'sapparently what it's partof.

HENRY:Okay. Is, is he -- I really have a

concern becausehe was, you know, he was in, in great

24

pain and agony, you know, when I was talking to him

earlier.

STEVE: Uh-huh.

HENRY: And, but, you know, part of the

problem is like he said every time that he coughs or

laughs or something like that that he feels that he

starts bleeding again.

STEVE:He said that?

HENRY: Yes, he, hedid. And the problem is

if he is feeling --if there is internal bleeding, see,

when, whenthat coagulates, that's goingto cause him

some serious problems. It'sbeen a long time since,

since hesuffered that wound, and we need to try to get

him somemedical help.

STEVE: Well [gap] for, for what they're

telling me I guess -- hello?

HENRY: Yes [gap].

STEVE:[gap] Oh, something --I don't know

what's -what's happeningI wonder?

HENRY: Yeah.

STEVE: Is that at your end or --

HENRY: No, it's probablyat your end.

STEVE:Well, there's nobodyaround the, the

phone here. I don'tget it.

HENRY: Uh-huh.

STEVE: I'mlooking around here right now.

?

I

92

I

92

~

92

25

Okay. Itsounds actually better. I don'tknow what --

it kind of cleared up or something here.

HENRY: Um-hum.

STEVE: Okay. Okay, you were, you were

saying, yeah. Oh, I tell you what.I'm just so worn

out I'mhaving a hard time even talking here.

HENRY: Okay. Well, let me, let me say this.

The, the two - or the lady that brought the, the last

two kids indicated that their car is almost out of

gasoline.

STEVE:Oh, it is.

HENRY: So she said or she asked if we could

bring some gasoline on the next, you know, when we do

the next exchange. Can you get a couple of kids ready

so we can pick them up and --

STEVE: Yeah, let, let me find out then. I

guess I haven't beenwith it just too long here. I was

starting to lay down there and I was -- let me find out

what they'redoing, and I'll tryto do that, okay?

HENRY: Okay.

STEVE: Just aminute.

HENRY: Okay.

[gap]


[sap] ~

STEVE: Henry?

HENRY:

STEVE:

the tape thing o

HENRY:

we encountered s

STEVE

HENRY:

is most serious

STEVE

HENRY:

the same fashion

STEVE:

HENRY:

we're trying to

Christian Broadc

STEVE:

Network?

HENRY:

stations through

STEVE:

HENRY:

Arizona.

STEVE:

HENRY:

But when we call

§ O26

Yes.

So have you made progress with doing

I --

Yes. As a matter of fact, I mean we,

ome difficulty but, but -- .

Yeah.

Whatwe're trying to dois because he

about this --

Uh-huh.

-- we'retrying toreact in exactly

Yeah.

Andwhatwe'retrying towork out is

get him some time on the National

asting Network.

The National Christian Broadcasting

Yes, which has several thousand radio

out the country.

Okay.

Now thatis, is basedin Phoenix,

In Phoenix, Arizona.

But, you know, their headquarters.

ed out there, there'snobody there, so

we sent agents out to go to the people's houseand get

27

them out of bed or wherever they'reat--

STEVE: Uhhuh.

HENRY: -- so that we can initiate this.

STEVE: I see. So was he wanting to do that

yet tonight or -- Y

HENRY: Well, he wanted to -- he was going to

record the, the cassette for us.

STEVE: Uh-huh.

HENRY: And then he assured me.

STEVE: Yeah.

HENRY: And I told him I was going to hold

him to his word, buthe assured me not once but at

leastfour times -

STEVE: Uh-huh .

HENRY: -- that, thatonce we did that,

everybody was coming out. '

STEVE: I see. Could you becareful of the

cord there? I think that's maybewhat the problem is.

Someone was bumping into this - the cord in the phone

is bad.

HENRY: Oh, okay.

STEVE: Okay. Yeah. Careful. Careful

there. Hello? ~

HENRY: Yes.

STEVE: Okay. Okay. Let me see. And then

we're --right now, he's fallenasleep. I see they

O I

28

brought a couple of the things. Is there any way I

could leavehim maybesleep for 1 hour? V

HENRY: Okay. But, but I have a concern,

Steve. And the --

STEVE: Yeah.

HENRY: -- concern that I have, you know, is

that, you know, his health maybe deteriorating. Okay,so --

STEVE: There's,there's --right now there's

a nurse over here. And she says leave him sleep for

the moment -' I

HENRY: Okay.

STEVE: -- just to regain, regain at least a

little strength here.

HENRY: Okay. That's -- *

STEVE: And then she said she wants there

herself asking if, if they can'tdo something in that

area. She was just whispering over hereto me. Sb I,

I think between her and I we'regoing to ask them about

that, you know, getting that kind of attention or

something, or see if there's morethat could be done to

help out there.

HENRY: Okay. Okay. And we are ready to

provide that, but --

swsvs = Okay.

HENRY: -- we're going to have to take him

29

out of there.

STEVE: UhhUh.

HENRY: Okay? And I want you to be thinking

in terms because at some point the responsibility, you

know, for the entire group is probably going to shift

to your shoulders, Steve.

STEVE: I see.

HENRY: And, and, you know, I know there's an

awful lot of people there. A lot of children.

STEVE: Right.

HENRY: We want to between you and us,

between you and me, we need to try to coordinate this

sothat we can effect what --

STEVE: Right.

HENRY: -- David and I initiated and that is

everybody's coming out.

STEVE: Okay. Is there any way then -- can,

can you call me back in anhour?

»HENRY: Sure.

STEVE: Oh, that would be great. Because I

think what I'm goingto do is even lay down here, and

I'm goingto have somebody here wake me up then. Or

if, if the phone rings, I'm just going to make sure

that I hear it just so I don'tfall off too deeply in

sleepor something.

HENRY: Okay.

STEVE:

HENRY :

30

Okay.

Now let me just ask you this. Can we

get acouple of kids so that we can go ahead and, and

give you the gasoline for that car that, that that lady

was asking about?

STEVE: Well, she said he never -- he passed

out before he gave the next couple that were to be

going. So I don'tknow what to really do right HOW .

Can, can we just wait for 1 hour?

HENRY:

STEVE:

Okay. Does --

And then, and call me and I'm going

to have them at least have, you know, a number of them

ready so that he can just say well, you know, these two

are going next then.

HENRY :

STEVE :

mean I'm, I'm so tired.

whole night. And I, I

laid down

HENRY:

STEVE:

HENRY :

STEVE :

HENRY :

STEVE :

there. I, I can

Okay.

Yeah. I'm-- oh, I tell you what. I

Last night I went through the

never got to sleep at all. I

You must be exhausted.

Oh, I am.

Okay.

Henry, thanks much.

Okay. I

I, I mean I know you'rereally trying

tell.And I really do appreciate it.

about an hour.

then

said

cord

with

HENRY:

STEVE:

HENRY:

l STEVE:

HENRY:

STEVE:

I'll mention

that, didn't

HENRY:

31

Umhum. O

So I'mgoing to conk out here for

And please call me back.

Okay. One other thing.

Okay.

Did you need a phone cord?

I -- yeah. When you call me back,

that again. I guess we -- I think he

he?

Yeah, but I'm not sure what kind of a

it is that he wants.

STEVE:

you.

HENRY:

things.

back

STEVE:

HENRY:

to you.

STEVE:

HENRY:

STEVE:

HENRY:

RACHEL:

HENRY:

RACHEL:

I'm not certain either to be honest

Okay. Okay. Well, check on those

Okay.

You know, in about an hour I'll be

Thank you much.

Thank you, Steve.

Okay. Yeah. Bye.

Bye-bye.

iii

Hello?

Hello?

Hello?

am I

you.

he's --

that's, t

talki

32

HENRY: This is Henry. Who's this?

RACHEL: Just a minute. Steve. Steve. Who

ng to?

HENRY:

RACHEL

This is Henry. Who'sthis.

: I'msorry. I couldn't understand

HENRY: Henry.

RACHEL: Henry.

HENRY: Who's this?

RACHEL: Oh, it's Rachel.

HENRY: Hi, Rachel. How you doing?

RACHEL: Okay.

HENRY: How'severybody doing in there?

RACHEL: I guess okay.

HENRY: How's David?

RACHEL: Well, helooks okay. Looks like

HENRY: He looks okay?

RACHEL: Lookslike he'ssleeping.

HENRY: Okay. Who is the nurse in there

hat's taking care of him?

RACHEL: which nurse is it?

HENRY: Yeah.

RACHEL: I don't know.

HENRY: Are you a nurse?

RACHEL: NO.

33

1 HENRY: Okay. Is there more than one nurse

2 in there?

3_ RACHEL: I think there's a few, but I don't

4know who, which one is which.

5; AHENRY: Uh-huh. Well, you know, we have a

A 6 concern. Andwe wantedto see if we could talk to her

7 so that --

8 RACHEL: Looks like she's wakingup.

9HENRY: Oh, okay.

10 RACHEL: Here.

11 [gap]

12 DAVID: This Harry?

13 HENRY: David?

14 DAVID: Yeah. Is this Harry?

15 HENRY: This is Henry.

16 DAVID: Henry. Oh -- sorry.

17 HENRY: How are you doing?

18 DAVID: Okay.

19 HENRY: Are you in pain?

20 DAVID: Gasping.! Oh, it's almosta funny

21 question. But, oh, wait a second. Let me look --

22 okay. All right. Are the children there yet?

23 HENRY: Yes, they are. You want to talk to

24 them?

25 DAVID: Yeah. See. Rachel? Could you,

could you get Larry? Is Larry asleep or --could you

34

get Rachel, Larry and --

RACHEL:

DAVID:

HENRY :

-- asleep.

Course, little Jamie can'ttalk so.

Um-hum. We want to confirm that

you're goingto be making that tape, okay?

DAVID:

rest --

HENRY:

DAVID:

HENRY:

Do you -- I don't

talk to you. But

Yeah. I was just trying to get some

Yeah.

-- to get my strength up.

Okay. Okay. I can understand that.

know if Steve had a chance to, to

you know, we're workingsomething

out. And because, because you are serious, very

serious about this, we wantto approach it from the

same, you know, with thatsame seriousness. Okay?

DAVID:

HENRY:

Oh, yeah.

And what we'd liketo do is we are

trying to not present this to somebody that's,that's

going to take it lightly but rather whomwe are trying

to contact as a matter of fact as we speak is the

National Christian Broadcasting Network. Okay?

DAVID:

HENRY:

DAVID:

All right.

Okay.

All right. Okay.Where's,

where's --which -- where is thatlocated at?

HENRY: They're basedout of Arizona. I

35

think it'sin, I think it's inPhoenix. And they

have --

DAVID:

locally?

A HENRY:

have several thou

country. But, yo

DAVID:

right now is KRLD

HENRY:

DAVID:

HENRY:

number one that's

DAVID:

HENRY:

.DAVID:

HENRY:

exposure.

DAVID:

HENRY:

that one of, one

you are very seri

arecalling you -

What's thesubsidiary station here

That I don'tknow. I know thatthey

sand radiostations throughout the

u know --

The station everybody's listening to

, right?

Yeah. But that's, that'slocal.

I know --

We're tryingto get you something

religious.

Exactly.

That's, that'sserious.

Exactly. I

Number two that has national

Okay.

Now the - you know, as you know,

of the concerns that I have is here

ous, okay. And some of these people

- I don'teven want to tell you what

they're callingyou. Okay? I mean it's somethingthatyou don't like.

DAVID:

Okay? So I thought it would be --

No, okay. I just -I got what

{92

you're saying just --

36

HENRY: Okay. So we want to have something

that, you know, that you're going

Because it's considered a serious

Okay? So we -- I

in Arizona, and we couldn't get a

to be pleased with.

religious network.

mean, we called this national network

hold of anybody. So

what we did is we called our FBI office in Phoenix, and

as we speak they're waking up the people that are in

charge of this.

DAVID:

HENRY:

sure that it is.

DAVID:

HENRY:

It's not a 24-hour radio

Well,I'm not sureabout

What, what --

Ishouldn't say I'msure

But, but the people that we were trying to

head people, weren't around. So --

DAVID:

HENRY:

the home. Okay?

DAVID:

HENRY:

Oh, Isee. Yeah.

station?

that.I'm

that it is.

contact, the

-- so they, they sent people out to

Right.

And when Iwas talking to Steve, he

was a little bit confused about whatyou wanted. So --

DAVID:

It's not going to

HENRY:

DAVID:

Okay. We'regoing to make this tape.

be a long one.

Okay.

And we'regoing to put something

0

@

r92

/ 92

37

together very tangible, very simple, very even andp

begin to show the difference between the way I perceive

the seals and what, in, in difference to what we've

heard the seals being presented thus far by all so-

called teachers and religious leaders that have been

calling the radio stations.

HENRY: Uh-huh.

DAVID: So that way people will be able to

honestly listenand readtheir Bibles asthey're

listening and see that Iknow what I'mtalking about.

HENRY: Exactly.

DAVID: And then they'll make a decision frdm

what they themselves have seen and heard from their own

Bible. And then like Isay, then I'min your hands.

HENRY: Okay. One of the concerns that I

have, okay, is I'mtalking to some people, some medical

people. And what --I don't likewhat I'mhearing.

And what I'm hearingis that,you know, remember when

we were talking earlier and you coughed, okay. You

told me that you thought that you might be bleeding.

If you -- "

DAVID: Yeah, when Icough Ibleed.

HENRY: Okay. Now do you, do you think that

you're bleedinginternally? Probably, right?

DAVID: Well, the hole is right here next to

the belly. And it, it hit me in the, the pelvic, and

then it somehow

towards my back

HENRY

DAVID:

the front.

traced around

There was a

Whispering.

-- that was

38

and went out kind of

hole in the back -

! My God.

bigger than the hole in

HENRY: Yeah. Well, see --

DAVID: And then the --

HENRY: What, what I'm,what I'mbeing told

is that when you'rehemorrhaging and then you'reblood

clots, okay, it creates a problem; because internally

somebody's goingto have to deal with it. You've

been --this is a long time ago thatthis occurred. We

need to try to move things along so thatyou can get

some medical assistance before you start having a lot

of difficulty, you know, and, and you start going into

shock or something like that.

DAVID: Well, I was in shock when I firstgot

hit I thought.

HENRY: Okay.

DAVID: But like I say when -- I'mgoing to

make this tape and, and I'mgoing to --when we send

the kids out to you I'mgoing to send that tape with

them. And you'll just have to -- this will play, this

will play tomorrow sometimes, right? -

HENRY: Well, we can play it whenever you

want. Ifyou want we can play it now. Or we can, we

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DAVID :Well - -

39

HENRY: -- you know, wecan play it tomorrow.

Tomorrow will befine. Now, you know, if you have a

problem,rif you have -- orif you're nothappy with the

National Christian Broadcasting Network, wecan goto

KRLD. I mean I don'thave any problems going with

whomever you want.

DAVID: Well, that's like Isay if it's a

national coverage then other stations will pick it up,

HENRY: Sure.

DAVID: And KRLD will probably more than92_

happy want to play it. Because they've, they'vebeen.

wonderingwhat's happened tome anyway.

HENRY: Okay. Well, I don'thave any

problems makingthema copy and giving them a copy or

whatever you'd like.

DAVID: Would you, would

correction for KRLD and then those

HENRY: Okay.

DAVID: Let's see. They

eightkids out. Let'ssee, wegot

you make a

things for me?

keep saying wehave

1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10,

12, 14, 16 children. And they need to, they need to

understand wegot 16 children out.

HENRY: Okay.

DAVID: And there's awholelot more as

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you'll findout. And your all'srecords werereally

wrong whenyou numberedthe amountof people here and

stuff. And, and, you know, I'dlike to hear thaton

the radio that there was 18of them gotten out so far.

That's Lahara,Renee, Angelica,Crystal, Camaray

phonetic sp.!, Landon, Jake,let's see,my eyesarekind of blurry.

SHERRY: Ryan.

DAVID: Ryan, yeah.

HENRY: Okay.Give me the names again.

DAVID: Letme, letme getthis--HENRY: Lahara.

DAVID: ~- closer to, to me. Just read it

off to me there, Sherry, wouldyou? The, the ones that

we've sentout so far. Okay. Unidentified voices in

background notdiscernible.! Okay, wait a second.

Slow down, all right? Okay. Lahara.

HENRY: Lahara.

DAVID: Okay. You already got that down?

HENRY: Um-hum.

DAVID: Renee.

HENRY: Renee.

DAVID: Okay. Angelica.

HENRY: Angelica.

DAVID: Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: Crystal.

.

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DAVID: Crystal.

HENRY: Crystal.


DAVID: Camaray.

HENRY: Camaray.


DAVID: Landon.

HENRY: Landon.

DAVID: Yeah. The next one

HENRY: Jake. '


DAVID: Ryan.

HENRY: Brian.


DAVID: Joshua.

HENRY: Joshua.


DAVID: Jamie.

HENRY: Jamie.


DAVID: No. The other ones

Camaray.

Landon. ~

s Jake.

Ryan.

Joshua.

Jamie.

And --

-~ all the 0118 S

that are marked off. Unidentified female voice in

background not discernible.! Those others on the other

side

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: Oh, Janessa

DAVID:Okay. Janessa.

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HENRY

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID

42

Janessa.

Patron.

Patron.

Yeah. Keep going. Unidentified

voices in background not discernible.! Let me see.

Let me seethat list.Groaning.! Okay. Oh. are you

saying these here are listedtwice?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

DAVID: No, they're not. No, these are the

first ones we sent out. That'swhy they wrote the

names over there

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: - we listed

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID:

So that's --

them indiscernible!.

un

No you didn't. There'sChrissy.

Chrissy.

Brian.

Brian.

Scott.

Scott.

Jake.

Jake.

And you already got Joshua and Jamie.

identified female voice in background

not discernible! -- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, -- okay, 6, 7,

8, 9-- all we'vebeen sayinganyway howmany--

HENRY: I, I think we only have 14. I think

1 you said 1

2

3 be correct

4~ list here

5I

6

7

6all right,

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

1e get --

19

20

21

22

23 Let me get

24

25

4

43

6. but I think we have 14.

DAVID: Oh, boy. I tellyou. I mean, I may

ed onthem. But like Isay, I got a big long

and ~-

HENRY: Okay.

DAVID: - we're markingthem off little by

; little and -- okay. All right. So groaning! --

then soI'm going to start --where's,

where's Gregand them? They still -- where'sSteve?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Sleeping.

DAVID: Ishe sleeping around the corner?

Oh, anyway. Here, here Larry.Here's -this guy will

let you talk to Josh.

LORRAINE: Hello?

HENRY: H6110?

LORRAINE: Hello? This is Joshua's mother.

HENRY: Oh, okay. Hold on a second. Let me

LORRAINE: Okay. Thank you.

HENRY: What'syour name?

LORRAINE: Lorraine. _

HENRY: Lorraine? Okay. Hold on, Lorraine.

the - Joshua. How are you doing?

LORRAINE: I'mdoing fine.Thank you.

HENRY: GOOd.

lsapl

.

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right?

44

HENRY:He's coming right up, Lorraine. Hold

second.

LORRAINE: Okay.

HENRY: Whispering.! Say hi.

JOSHUA: Hi.

LORRAINE: Hi, honey. You doing okay?

JOSHUA: Yeah.

LORRAINE: Okay. You be a good soldier, all

JOSHUA: Okay. _

LORRAINE: Okay. I love you, honey.

JOSHUA: Okay.

LORRAINE: Okay,sweetheart.

JOSHUA: Bye.

LORRAINE: Bye.Yeah, they'll feed you.


discernible.!

JOSHUA: What?

LORRAINE: Yeah, he knows that. He already

said they won't feedme no --yeah, you tell them no

okay?

pork, honey, right? Do you hear Mommy?

JOSHUA: Uh-huh.

LORRAINE:Okay,sweetheart. Be a good boy,

JOSHUA: Okay.

LORRAINE: Okay. I love you. Wait, hang on

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a sec. Huh? Hey, are you seeing the rest of the kids?

Did you get to play with them?

JOSHUA: No.

LORRAINE: No?Oh, maybeyou will. What,

what about the other kids that left? You didn't see

them?

JOSHUA: Uh-uh.

LORRAINE: The ones that just left, no?

Okay. Well,maybe you'llsee them.Okay, yougoing totake the phone back,David? Okay, sweetheart. Put the

man back on, okay?

JOSHUA: Okay.

LORRAINE: I love you very much.

JOSHUA: Bye.

LORRAINE: Bye-bye, darling.

HENRY: Lorraine?

' LORRAINE: Yes?

HENRY: Oh, okay.

LORRAINE: Okay,I'm goingto put David backon, okay?

HENRY: That's fine.

LORRAINE: Okay. Thank you.-

HENRY: Thankyou. Unidentified female

voice in background notdiscernible.!

DAVID: Okay.All right, thanks.Okay.

HENRY: David,one of the things that we need

fk.

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to work out if, if we can is we have -- when we made

that last exchange the ladies that brought the, the

kids over said that their car was running out of

gasoline, and they wondered if we could get them somegasoline, Q

DAVID: Wait a second.

HENRY: Okay.

DAVID: Said something about their car being

out of gasoline? Oh, it is? Unidentified voices in

background not discernible.! Oh that,that little car,

you know, itgoes a long ways just on a -- well,we --

she said --

HENRY: So what --

DAVID: -- that she talked to the girl, Mary.

But the thingof it is, is that-- how low is, how

close to empty is it? Unidentified female voice in


HENRY: David?

DAVID: Yes.

HENRY: What,what we'vedone is we've gotten

a, you know, 5, 5 gallonsworth of gasoline. We gota

gas tank full of --

DAVID =_ Oh.

HENRY: And when they, we make the next

exchangewe'll just fill it up. We'll,we'llpour the

5 gallons of gasoline in the car. Okay?

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47

DAVID: Okay. All right. Thanks. I

appreciate that.

HENRY: Okay.

DAVID: I don't ~-well, it'stoo late toget

aphoneonow so.

HENRY: What?

DAVID: Oh, we -- see we have a lot of --

what wehadtodo is because I couldn'tmove andour

phone was,was waydown in a different part of the

building, we had to scrounge upall kinds of phone

cordsand piece themtogether tostretch them across

the building to, to get to where I am.

HENRY: Uh-huh.

DAVID: So we could have aphone here.

HENRY: Oh, okay, so you need a--

DAVID: So I had asked, I had, you know, I

hadsentsome money toJim, andI'd askedhim, you

know, to,you know,take careof the kids with that.But --

HENRY: Um-hum.

DAVID: -- I'd alsoasked himto if hecould

if he could justlikehave someone pickup, youknow,half,you know, nothingreal fancy, just a straightphone fromRadio Shackorsomethingwith approximately150 feet or soof, of telephonecable.

HENRY: Okay.Well, that's-- you know, I, I

92.

48

1 have a notehere to get, toget a telephone cord. I

2 didn't know what exactly that was.

3 DAVID: Yeah.

4HENRY: Okay. That'swhatyou need- You.

5: you needt-

6 DAVID: Yeah. Notthe, the kind that twist

7 around and around, you know, the, the straight stuff,

8 you know. I need a lot of it. And the longer pieces

9 we can get the better, because then we don'thave so

10 .many connections we have to make.

11 HENRY: Okay. Now you wantthat -- that's

12 like,like aninside cord, right?

13b DAVID: Yes, sir.14 HENRY: Okay. Let me work on that. I'll

15 probably get that as soon as, as --

16 DAVID: They've gotit at Radio Shack.

17 They'vegot like,you know, they even got like 50 feet

18 sections, you know.So --

19 HENRY: Okay. Let me ask you this. When I

20 spoke to Steve he was, he wasconcerned, youknow,

21 about your healthas weall are, okay?But he's --he

22 has aconcern about makingany decisions. Are you

23 trying to prepare him -- do youthinkit might be wise

24 to, to -- is somebody calling? Hello? 1

25 DAVID: Hello?

HENRY: Yeah. That is Steve -- are you

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working towards preparing Steve to takeover some of

the responsibility? Because I feel that you're getting

weaker, okay?And, andyou havea lot of

responsibility on your shoulders, okay?

A DAVID: Well, that's what I was telling Jim.

I was telling Jim, I said look, Jim, I teach my

students from the very first day that they meet me I

tell them, I say hey, look, do you want to learnthe

seals? And they don'teven know what that is at first,

most of them. So I tell them look, would you liketo

learnsomething about Jesus Christ --

End of tape.!

_ 32

into Judea, they kept saying to Hezekiah now do not

deceive your people, but have all of them come out to

me and we'll takeyou to a land likened to your own and

the landflow with milk and honey. Don't letHezekiah

deceive you saying thatyour God will deliver you.

Anyway, what happened was as Hezekiah had listened to

theProphet Isaiah, Hezekiahhad repentedhis sins,

asking God for forgiveness. And Hezekiah prayed to

God, saying Lord God of heaven, thou art theonly true

and living God and all thegods of the earth are idols

and they are no gods.

Now, we'vecome to the birth and there'sno

strength to bring forth, so please save us and deliver

us thatall the world may know that thereis a true and

living God is Israel. So what took place was, is that

that night the angelof the Lord wentforth and smote

185,000 of their warriors and they perished. You see,

weall know Christ is coming soon.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH=That gospel'sbeenpreached for

a long time, hasn't it?

HENRY: Um-hum. It certainly has.

MR. KORBSH=Yes. And everyone is supposed

to be likeChrist, aren't they?

HENRY: Right.

MR. KORESH: Okay. But the question is is

2

12

15

16

18

19

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33

1 the world ready for the coming of Christ in glory?

V Well, God never said he would come in glory the second

time. The scriptures tell us, as the Gospel of Peter

tells us, look for the salvation that shall be brought

5 to you in the end of the world at the revelation of

6 Jesus Christ. We find in Hebrews Paul tries to explain

7 to the Christian church that we who are of the spirit

8 dwell in the heavenly sanctuary, a sanctuary where the

9 man of this world can nevercontaminate, theycannot

10 pollute it, they cannot contaminate it, because it

llrevolves around God who speaks through his word, the

sevenseals.

And, you know, like I say, unless we fear

God, unless we fear his word --

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: -- you know, the appearance of

17 the thing, just like 2,000 yearsago, who really

believed that Christ was Messiah?

HENRY: That'sright.

92 MR. KORESH: You know?

21 HENRY: That's right.

M. KORESH: And why did he have to die? He

says father, I pleadeth that thy remove this cup from

me. But if it be not removed exceptI drink it, not my

25 will but they will be done. Taken from Psalm60, where

it says Lord, thou hasshown thy people hardthings.

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Well, the seven sealsare pretty hard things. Thou hasmade us todrink the wine of astonishment. Psalm 75,

Messiah is talking to the, tothe heathen and he says I

said to the fools do notfoolishly, and to the wicked

lift not up your horn on high, speak not with astiff

neck, for know that promotion comes neither from the

eastnor the west nor the south, by the north inOrion

-- past Orion in heaven in the northern part of the

universe, the father has exalted and promoted Christ

above all heaven, hasn't he?

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: Right? Okay. It says in Psalm

75 - We're havinga lot of babies crying around here

now.

HENRY: Are they okay?

MR. KORESH:I guess they're --Why are the

babies crying so much? Unidentified female voice in

background notdiscernible.! Yeah, can you give them

somebottle or some, some breastor something?

Unidentified female voice in background not

discernible.! Please? Yeah, she wantssome milk.

Okay.Anyway, sowe'restuckin acorner right now,myfriend.

HENRY: Howdo you feel right now?

MR. KORESH: Well ~-

HENRY: Physically?

35

MR. KORESH: In Psalms - I don't know, it's

like this. Christ says he has the key of David, right?

HENRY: Um-hum.

p MR. KORESH: Hecan open and no one can shut?

I HENRY: Um-hum.

M. KORESH: It's taken from the prophecy of

Isaiah 22, for God promises to overthrow the ungodly of

his land. He's goingto take away the power of the

ungodly and reestablish his kingdom.

HENRY: Uh-huh.

MR. KORESH: He says in that day I'll rise up

my servant -- Yeah, he says Eliakim, which means Godll

raise up Eliakim. It says on that day I'lllay upon

his shoulder the key of David and he shall open and

none shall shut, and he shall shut and none shall open.

And itsays they shall lay upon him all the glory of

his father's house. Now, unless you know who Eliakim

is, you won't knowwho his father is. But it says you

shall lay upon him the offspring and the issue.

But, you know what that is. That's children,

isn't it? Offspring?

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: Yeah. Well, that's whereyou

get the first seal at. The man on the white horse, the

first thing thatI try to teach people in Psalmsin the

first seal, you know, the man on the white horse is

a 1

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that you'vegot a bow, right?

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: And he'salso got a crown,

right?

HENRY: Umhum.

M. KORESH: He goes forth conquering and to

conquer, right?

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH=Well, then what happens is you

find the truth of that in the 45th Psalm.


discernible.! They'reon the roof with ropes?

HENRY: What?

MR. KORESH:They're onthe roof with ropes

right now.

HENRY: N0

MR. KORESH:

HENRY: NO

No.

The guys are seeing them, right?

No, that'snot possible. That's

not possible. We made an agreement.

M. KORESH

ropes.

HENRY: NO

MR. KORESH

HENRY: We

Nobody can be there.

MR. KORESH:

No, they'reon the roof with

No. That's not possible.

They'reright up there.

made an agreement. They can't--

Make sure. Ask again.

Steve? Like I say, I feel so

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sorry for you guys. _

do --

HENRY: What we want, what we'rehoping to

MR. KORESH: I know what you want, but you

don't understand. Look at how much -Look, did Jim

Jones ever get this kind of slander? Look --

HENRY= We don't wantanybody -- We certainly

don't want you to be slandered.

the one

church

is bad.

temple

Spirit

you'll

isn't i

MR. KORESH: Listen, let me explain again.

HENRY: Okay.

MR. KORESH: Okay, look, in Psalms 45, God's

speaking. And when you come up hither to my

-- See, it's thespirit and the world, the world

There is no temple on God, to be honest. The

of God must be in you and it must be in truth.

and in truth, okay? When you come up hither,

see God ona throne. That's what's written,

t? When you read things, you don't reallysee

it, you just see it in yourmind, don'tyou?

HENRY: Umhum.

MR. KORESH: And our mind must be renewed

with the knowledge of God, correct?

HENRY: Um-hum. _

MR. KORESH: That's whyGod has chosen to use

scripture as a means for men to see his mind.

HENRY: Um-hum.

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mi. xonssx-1=So in the 45:11Psalm,when you

come up hither and you can look atthe father

spiritually and you hear the 45th Psalm speak, it says

myheart -- See, the father givesme the book, right,

and opens the firstseal about the white horse?

HENRY: Um-hum. A

MR. KORESH: So then I show you Psalms45.

It saysmy heartis indicting agood manner. I speak

of things whichI have made touching my king. You know

who the father's kingis, don'tyou?It's Christ.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: It says mytongue is the pen of

aready writer.

HENRY: Uh-huh .

MR. KORESH: Now, how does God want to speak?

He wrote abook, didn't he? .

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH:That'swhy his tongue isthe penof aready writer.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH:He saysto the son, he says thou

are fairer than the children of men.So that's his

opinion isn't it?

HENRY: Yes.

MR. KORESH:Hesaysgrace is poured into thy

lips. Now, how are men required to be saved in the

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latter days?Who's goingto come?And what'she goingtoteach? The seven seals, right?

HENRY: Um-hum.

M. KORESH: And who gave him the seven seals

to teach? The father, right?

HENRY:Um- hum .

. MR. KORESH: And all that receive his

testimony will learn the prophets and all the books

pertaining to these seals and they'llreceive grace --

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: -- unmerited favor for

salvation.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH= So, therefore, have God blessed

thee forever. But then itsays gird thy sword upon thy

thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.

And in that majesty ride prosperously because of truth.

Now, what did he ride? What does the king ride? In

the first seal what does he ride?

HENRY: The white horse?

MR. KORESH: He rides the white horse.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: So they'reon the roof for sure

now, right?

HENRY: No, they are not on the roof. Nobody

iseven close. Listen, the agreements that we made,

40

David, theagreements thatJim madewith youall stand.We are not --

MR. KORESH= Well, why, why are people

jumping all around on the roof? y

HENRY: There is nobody on your roof. There

is nobody -- There is --

M. KORESH= Let's get back to the psalm

then, so you can get abetter picture of the way I

think, okay? So inPsalms 45, it says with thy glory

and majesty, ride prosperously because of truth. Now,

what is the truth-that the father gave himthat says

he's goingto ride prosperously? The seven seals,

right?

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: Okay. Meekness and

righteousness, it says thy righthand shallteach thee

terrible things. Why? Because the father gave me this

book.

HENRY: Um-hum.

M. KORESH: The father gave me the book and

it talks terrible things,what'sgoingto happen totheheathen that resist, resist against the will of God,

the word of God.

HENRY: Um-hum. '

M. KORESH: Okay. Finally, itsays thy

arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies. I

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mean, youknow, whatarrows? Doeshe have a bow in the

first seal? He does,doesn't he?

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: Okay. whereby the people fall

under thee. This says thy throne O God is forever and

forever. The indiscernible! is aright scepter. Thylove isrighteousness and hate is wickedness.

Therefore, God,thy Godhave anointedyou with the oil

gladness above thy fellows. So is Christ the son of

God?

HENRY: Yes.

MR. KORESH: And he'sGod, isn'the?

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH:Okay. Now, it goes on to talk

about his marriage. It says upon my right hand is

standthe queen in gold of Ophir.

[9aP]

MR. KORESH: They're comingin on us.

HENRY: No,nobodyis there. I promise you

nobody is there. We --Every agreementthatwe made

before stands.

M. KORESH: Go up and see.

HENRY: Goaheadand send somebody,because

there's goingto benobodythere.There's goingto he

nobody there. I can promise youthat.Like, you know,

just like you, we'realso servants of the Lord. We're

92 s

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nct your enemies. We're not.

MR. KORESH: Well, if you -

End of Tape 10A.!

92 92

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

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TAPE #102

3/1/93

2

HENRY: And that's fine and I have no1'

problems with that.

M. KORESH:Okay. yHENRY: But I have a problem with you staying

there all day.

NR. KORESH:Well --

HENRY: And when I say I have aproblem, I

would like --

MR. KORESH; This iswhy, this is why you

agreed to play this tape, right?Because you really

have nointention ofplayingit, right?HENRY: No, no, no, no, no. That hasnothing

to do with anything. If I told you that I was goingto

do something, that's exactly what I'mgoingto do. You

know, I, I have no problems doing, you know, this and

whatever, you know --

MR. KORESH: I told these people to trust you

all.

' HENRY: And, you know, and likewise I've been

trusting you, okay?

MR. KORESH: Okay. Now, here's thedeal,

though. You know, you do understand the importance to

us for this -- what I have to say to be gotten out.

Now, we'renot terrorists. I mean, you're not-- And

we don'thave no hostages here.

' HENRY: I understand.

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MR. KORESH: I mean, the children, that's

kind of like ahostage cause, like I

young to make their decisions.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. xonssm And I don't,I

say, they're too

don't agree with

that, even if they're my own, see. So the thing of it

is is that, like I say, I've beenfaithfully sending

them out.Not just because I'm tryingto, to, to buy

time, but because I just don't want them involved in

this.

HENRY: Umhum.

MR. KORESH: You know? And trying to, to

walk the middle of the road to make it as fair for us,

you know, and as fair for you. But, actually, on my

side, I'm going to make it fair for me first. Just

like your, your side, you're goingto

you first. So, you see, we both know

coming from on thatarea. You've got

you say, you know, we're sitting here

radio and everyone on the radio keeps

saying you all are going to stormus,

sent - You know, this is what they'resaying now. I'm

not saying that that's true.

HENRY: Okay.

make it fair for

where we're

me, okay? Like

listening to the

continually

you all sent, you

MR. KORESH: See? So you're being -- If

you're honestand you'rebeing dirty dealt with, just

,

4

like I have been dirty dealt with, you see? And it's a

different situation, but still it's thesame thing.

HENRY: Well -- A

MR. KORESH:They're sayingthat you'regoing

to do something and it's goingon national radio, state

radio at least, and people are out there listening and

you're notcorrecting it, you know. And they'resaying

well, the fog is a good cover and this is going to

happen and, and we'veseenthese many vehicles and

they're movingup and, and, you know -- Well, you're

not, you'renot getting on those boys saying now, wait

a minute, you know, we're notdoing that. No, they're,

they're incessantly tormenting us, you know, and

they're telling us what you guys are doing.

HENRY: Exactly.But oneof the things that

we've beendoing is we've beenignoring the press

because wedon't want the press to know what weare or

are not doing, you know, and that's whywehaven't said

anything one way or the other.


HENRY: That'swhy the press doesn'thave the

correct story, because we're just --

MR. KORESH: But the press --

HENRY: -- not talking to them.

M.KORESH: The press, you know, you all

pulled them back because, you know, they feel that when

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you all comein here and, and bang us all up and

everything that you don'twant them to get it on

footage.

_HENRY: But the press was saying last night

that we were storming the place at eight o'clock, andI

told you we weren't,andwehaven't.And even when you

thought that somebody wason the roof, I told you that

we were not.

MR. KORESH; Yeah, that's true.

HENRY: hndwe didn't.

MR. KORESH: And that'sin your favor, I

agree.

HENRY: Okay. So, you know, I would like for

you, you know, in order for me to, to, to be able to,

to sell all of this to my bosses, I need a little bit

of help from you. Now, whatI can do, or what I'd like

to do is let me talk to them in terms of selling this

to KRLD and maybe we can have KRLD then go national

during prime time. And if wedo that, will you agree

to come out at that time?

M. KORESH: When you'vedone the national.

HENRY: Okay.

MR. KOREsH= You can do KRLD and I'llstill

send the children.

HENRY:Okay .

MR. KORESH: You know.

6

HENRY: All of them?

MR. KORESH: Not all of them yet. Like I

say, when you go national, then they'll all come, all

of us come.

HENRY: Okay.Let's do this.

MR. KORESH: That, that's the agreement we

originally made.

HENRY: Okay. And that's fine, but, but

let's considerdoing one, one thing. Supposing we do

this. When the - you send out the two kids to -~ with

the tape, give me two kids and two women. How about

that?

MR. KORESH: See,there we're --

HENRY: Well, I'm justsaying I'vegot to

sell this because --

MR. KORESH: Look, look, there's onething

that binds us all here together.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH= It's thetruth I'msending in

that tape. Now, these women, if they were to come out

to you right now, you know,knowing how so far we'veV

been dealt with - We've beendealt with straight

across the table, but there is some shadow there. You

know, they'renot going to trust you until you have

ultimately shown beyond a shadow of adoubt, you know,

that you have kept your full end of the bargain.

7

So, you know, it's, it's like, it's like --

What you'reasking me to do is you'reasking me to use

my influence --

HENRY: Um-hum.

iMR. KORESH: --

decision to deal with the

believed in, because you

we're believing in. The

to barter someone else's /

effects of

all fail to

what we have

understand what

Constitution -- Watch the

baby, please -- in, in written form,

many interpretations, constitutional

are to have religious --

course, it has quotas to

religion is and is not ac

HENRY: Um-hum.

freedom for

where we've

ceptable.

though there's

law says that we

religion. But, of

got to define what

MR. KORESH: Okay? Now, we do condone a

Bible religion, but then there comes in the aspect of

interpretation. So someone's interpretationcould be

wrong and therefore making their religion wrong. And

if that religion hurts others, if itconfines others or

binds others, then definitely we have to take a stand

and present it to the public so that the public, which

isour judicial system, realistically, can decide that

well, no, this is incorrect, and we have to, in means,

deal withthe person that'sgoing contrary to, to what

the person is saying the scripture says.

You know, peoplecan screw things up. And

8

that religion is a false religion, for sure.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: Okay. Now, I agree with you on

all ofthese things, you know, and I love America, you

know. And you'll findin my past record that,you

know, I'mnot a bad person. In 1988, ifyou research

that so-called gun battle, you'll find out Iwent

plenty oftimes to the Sheriff's Departmentand asked

them to come out here anddeal with George Roden on

that corpse abuse thing. You know, ifyou research

that, you'llfind that out.

And when Iwas toldpoint-blank that Ihad to

get these pictures, and,as we were walking out Sheriff

Dixon says now, boys, be careful, you know, there are

some dangerous customers out there.

HENRY: Umhum. .

MR. KORESH: Now, that'swhen I had to stop

and think now, whatdoes he know thatI don't know?I

didn't knowDonny JoeHarvey or Orville Wells yet. I

didn't knowthat George was involved in coke and also

in methamphetamine. Ididn'tknow those things then.

HENRY: Um-hum.

M. KORESH: So, you know, why the system did

not --Well, like Isay, this is alot ofwater under a

bridge.

HENRY: Right.

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MR. KORESH: But it did make me look bad.

And thething ofit was was thatthe weaponsthat we

purchased, which you can look on all the yellow sheets,

atthat time everything wehad was with ayellow sheet.

a~HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: Everything we bought was with a

yellow sheet. Everything. You'll find that those

things were bought locally and also infrom Palestine.

Therewere basic Rugers, you know, and stuff, which at

that time was considered, you know, a rodent gun, you

know.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: Of course, weknow that the 5.56

is also amilitary, too. "

HENRY: Right.

MR. KORESH: But, anyway, the thing of itis

is that it gets blown out of proportion.

HENRY: Right. And I think one of the things

that we'retalking about and what we're tryingto

resolve here is, isthat everybody's either fears or

concerns about what might or might not happen. I, I

think that what your concern is, your main concern is

that wemight attack you, okay? And --

MR. KORESH: Well, if you attack us, it just

comes down tothis.

HENRY: Okay, but we'renot -- We have no

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intentions of doing that.

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MR. KORESH: I know, but it just comes down

to this, though. You end up killing us.

HENRY: Okay. And our concern is that,

that -- i

MR. KoP.sss= And

way you had it. You'll --

around us.

HENRY: Well, we

MR. KORESH: You

and this, that.

HENRY: No. Our

going to comeout and that

MR. KORESH: Oh,

suicide, I would havedone

explain something.

HENRY: Well ~-

I

then you'll have a story the

There's no, there's no media

don't --

llsay that we attacked you

concern is that you're not

you might commit suicide.

look, if I wanted to commit

it already. Now, let me

MR. KORESH= We were accused three timesthis

last year of going to commit suicide. Three times.

The authorities were roused up by letters from MARTBRO

phonetic sp.! and all that. Here we, here we've been

digging lakes inthe front, fixing this placeup from a

rat hill,hoping that one day we mighthave this place

finished, to be able to present ittrue to all those

who want to come.But at the same time, knowing that

as long asthere were people who would not look at the

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truth, we could not sit with idle expectation and think

that we'realways going tobe able to, to have this

freedom that we've enjoyed.

We've nevergone outside ourboundaries.

We've donethings thatare legal. You know, always

suspicion on every hand,you know, but the thing of it

is is that if there is anything inquestion, we need to

take it to the Bible. Christians are supposed to take

it to the law and the testimony of God's scripture.

Now, otherwise, we are commanded by scripture to abide

by the laws of the land in every degree, aslong as

those lawsdon't 100 percent conflict with the law of

God. _

In Nebuchadnezzar's day, when Nebuchadnezzar

had that dream, you know, Daniel and them weresubject

to the Babylonian kingdom, weren't they? They keptthe

laws of Chaldea, didn't they? But when it camefor

Nebuchadnezzar to makethat image and he commanded all

people to bow to it --i

HENRY: Um- um.h

MR. KORESH: --you know,indiscernible! we

will not be carefulinansweringthis to you, king,wedwill not bow down to your law which goes against our

God's law. Well, the acid test came. They threw those

boys in the fire, didn't they?

HENRY: Um-hum.

12

MR. KORESH: But who protected them? God

did. Now, we're in the fire now.

And, like I say, we believe that

nation and that it, like Assyria

hear theemessage of Jonah and it

say hey, you know, this, this --

Not a real fire.

America is agreat

or Nineva of old, can

can have a chance to

what this guy's

teaching out of the book is straight out of the Bible,

it's inharmony, it's perfect. Maybe there's beena

misunderstanding here.

HENRY: Well, what --If we can go back and

clarify our agreement so that you feel comfortable --

MR . KORESH: Right .

HENRY: -- and everybody feels comfortable.

And what it comes down tois real trust, you know, and

we need to --you need to have trust in us and we need

to have trust in you. Can you give me either all of

the children or two children and two women? And, you

know, andwe'll give what I said. I will give you the

KRLD and then going to national mediaright thereafter.

M. KORESH: Let me, let me talk about this

with, with some --~

HENRY: You know, if we don'tdo what we say

that we'regoing to do, the women will be able to give

testimony against us. Are we going to look good ~-

MR. KORESH: No, no. Come on.

HENRY: --in the eyes of everybody?

13

M. KORESH: Come on. '

HENRY: We will lookawful.

MR. KORESH: Look --

HENRY: We willlook awful.

AMR. KORESH: Oh, Henry --

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: -- how many times has the

federal government --

HENRY: I have not - I have been straight

with you, with -- in everything that we'vetalked

about. I've been straight with you all the way.I

told you we would keep everybody away from, from the

place, and we have. You know, we offered you gasoline

when you didn't havegasoline.

MR. KORESI-I: I'm justthinking about all the

past cases of where the -- Like I say, we both know

what I'mtalking about.

HENRY: Whatever past cases I've had --

MR. KORESH: But this is our case, this is

our case. Me and you are talking and --

HENRY: Exactly. Exactly. This is you and

me -- ~

M. KORESH: Okay.

HENRY: -- and, and --

M. KORESH: So you'reworried about me

committing suicide. All right.

14

HENRY: We don't wantanybody committingsuicide. i

M.KORESH: Okay.

HENRY: And we want to get you out of there

as soon as possible because, you know, your blood

pressure isn't all that good. _You'renot, you know,

with all those blankets that you have on you, you

should be sweating a little bit, and you're not.y

MR. KORESH: Well, how cold is it in this

room?

HENRY: I understand that.

MR. KORESH: Low forties.

HENRY: I understand that, but your injury --

you've hadthat injury for some time now.You need

attention.

MR. KORESH: Yeah.

HENRY: Youknow, there for a while you said

your mind was going blank, you know.Periodically, I

feel that you~have a shortness of breath. Those are

not good signs. We need to get attention, medical

attention for you. So I don'twant this thing to drag

out and, and have your death on my hands. I don'twant

that. Give me a chance to help you. "

MR. KORESH: Well --

HENRY: Give me a chance to help everybody.

MR. KORESH: -- that's what we were working

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out. Now you're twistingup again.

HENRY: No, I'm not.

M. KORESH: You said that we would play this

thing on national.

'"HENRY: We will. And that's exact --

M. KORESH: And I told you --

HENRY: That's exactly what we're going to

do.

M. KORESH; And then we would, you know, all

come out.And I told you, I said well, look, I'llgo

ahead and I'll senda tape and I'llsend you out two

more children, and you said that's fine. And then you

said we'llplay iton KRLD and you didn'tsay anything

about we'll play it on, play iton KRLD and then we'll

send everybody out. You didn't saythat. And so, you

know, now you're saying something different. Now,

that's honest,Henry, that'shonestly what'shappening.

And then you'redoing the same thing that, that Jim's

doing.

You're sayingyourbosses, your bosses. I

mean, I mean,this isnot BurgerKing management here,

you know. You're thenegotiator, you're the one'sthat

got a lot of, a lot of power,don't you?

HENRY: Well, I don'thave as much, you know,

I don't have all the power. I stillhave bosses.

Okay, now, you're incharge there and it'squite easy

for you to make the

Now, I'vebeen real

real hard for a lot

and I will continue

bit of help from you

16

decision if you choose to do so.

straight with you and I'vepushed

of the things that you've wanted,

to do that. But I need a little

MR. KORESH: Okay, let me, like I said --

Finishing thistape

so --

is beingdragged out now, too,

HENRY: Okay.

MR. KORESH: -let me -- I'llhave to, I'll

have to get withthese, you know,especially some of

thesegirls and talk to them.

HENRY: Okay. Can I get two kids now?

MR. KORESH: Well, as soon as I get my tape

finished.

HENRY: How about now, whileyou're still

working on it?

MR. KORESH: Well, that's not what weagreed

OD.

HENRY: I'mnot, you know, I'm just asking

you if you will consider doing that.

MR. KORESH: See, you're making it

complicated cause, like I say, are we going to send

some mothers out with thesechildren? Now, that's

going to take some work on my part.

HENRY: Okay.

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MR. KORESH:You know? And, like I say,

these people know the seals and they know that unless

this country observes and sees, then they know point-

blank what'sgoing to happen according to the

prophecies. That'swhy our main burden is holding out

here until we have an opportunity to state our cause.

You know, what did Nicodemus say? He says did our law

judge anymany beforethe hearing? We're talkingabout

the Jewish law, which is law of'God. Now,we know the

law of man does, but, you know, that'swhereme and

you, we kind of, kind of have a little friction,

because I wantto serve your laws where they coincide

with God's laws. '

And America does. Above all of the nations.

It does. You know, it's theclosest to God's laws,

basic principles of common sense, you know. But,

again, there are some laws inthe scriptures of truth

whichare the laws of prophecy, you know, and these

laws are great laws because they'readditional to the

Ten Commandment law, such as the law of forgive them

father, they don't knowwhat they do.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: See, now, that's a law.You

have to forgive people based ontheir ignorance.

V HENRY: Okay.

MR. KORESH: Now, the next law, whichlet's

say the

forgive

we have

they're

18

Ten Commandments is Christ, right?

HENRY: Umhum.

MR..KORESH: So the 11th commandment is

them, okay? So every man that, thatdoes err,

to forgive him cause they don'tknow what

doing.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: S0 then the 12th law will be

into they hand I commit my spirit, which means, like

Isaiah 51 says, when God says hearken to me, you who

seek after righteousness, you who seek the Lord,look

to the rock indiscernible! You know, God is that rock

on that throne, isn't he?

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: And it says behold my people,

give ear to me, oh, my nation, for a law shall proceed

fromme and I willmake my judgment to rest for a light

to the people. And in that judgment, that law is

Christ coming, the seventh seal.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: Now, that'swhy without you

knowing where these seven seals are in the Bible, you

know, you wouldn't knowhow to judge me.

respect

HENRY: Exactly.

MR. KORESH: Except by your law.And I

that. See, I'm willing to come out and be

19

observed and judged by your --

HENRY: Okay.

MR. KORESH: law.

HENRY: Okay.

A M.KORESH: But if you allow me to first

speak my law.

. HENRY: And I have no problems with allowing

you. Talk, talk to the people there, talk to the

women. I'll call you back in about 15 minutes and,and

you can let me know --

MR. KORESH: Okay.

HENRY: -- what the decision is. In the

meantime, you'realso going to be working on the

preamble and the tape.

MR. KORESH: Okay. What'sthe preamble?

HENRY: That's,that's whereyou're goingto

explain our agreement to the --

M.KORESH: Oh,okay, right. Okay.

HENRY: Okay?

MR. KORESH: Right. All right.

HENRY: Okay.So I'll call you back in a

littlebit.

MR. xonssr-1= Okay.

HENRY: Okay?

MR. KORESH: Okay.I'm going to have to do

some adjustment here now, so--

little bit

David?

20

HENRY: Okay.

MR. KORESH: Okay, I'll talkto you in a

HENRY

RITA:

HENRY:

RITA:

HENRY

RITA:

HENRY

RITA:

HENRY

RITA:

Okay. I'll talk to you. Bye-bye.

iii!-t I

Hello?

Hi.

Hi.

This is Henry.

Okay, Henry, you want to speak to

Yes. Who is this?

It's Rita again.

Thank you, Rita.

Okay.

MR. KORESH= Waita minute. Had this ear

plug again.

again.

the ear pl

HENRY: What?

M. KORESH: I said I had the ear plug in

0

HENRY: Oh, okay. ,

MR. KORESH: I keep putting the phone with

ug.

HENRY: Oh, okay.

M. KORESH: Okay, here's the deal.

HENRY: Okay.

21

MR. KORESH: I'm goingto make this tape.

Now, you know, some of these younger girls, you know,

they don'twantto go, you know, and I, I explained to

them, I said look, I says, you know, our main thing,

Sarah knowsanyway, and it's thetruth. You know, the

truth. You know?

HENRY: Umhum.

MR. KORESH: And I explained tothem again,

cause, you know, they -- the girls have the different

rooms, and talked to them, but I explained to them, I

said, you know, our whole purpose isour message. We

have amessage and the world's ignorantof what we

believe inthe Bible, so they're ignorantabout what

we're doing.

HENRY: Umhum.

MR. KORESH: So, I says,you know, I've

talked tothe guy and he's concernedthatwe're going

to, you know, same old story, we're goingto allzap

ourselves, you know. Why wouldn't wehave zapped

ourselves already, anyway, Henry? I mean, come on.

HENRY: You know --

M. KORESH: See, that'swhat they -- Anyway,

I'm sorry,I didn'tmean toget off the track.

HENRY: Okay. -

MR. KORESH: Here's thedeal. So some of

the, some of the older -- You know, we have quite a few

O 92 ' 22

olderladies here, too.

HENRY:Okay .

MR. KORESH: And I told them, I said, look, I

says, you know, you all, you know, you all -- Cause

they, they'vebeen quiteshocked, youknow. I told

him, I said, look,you all, you all are not really

involved in anything, you know,you all believe the

message and believethe truth. I says, but, remember,

that's themain thing, isthe truth is what we all

stand for.

HENRY: Okay.

MR. KORESH: And I says you can probably also

help present to the people the truth.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH: And so, you know, I've, I've

been talking to them. I said, look, here'sthe deal,

you know, you can either witness for God here,and

probably don'twant to listen to us, orif you had a

chance to, to be onthe outside, you could witness to

him there.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. XORESH: You know, cause people are

going to want to knowwhy we'vedone these crazy

things. Now, next thing -- We didn'tgivethem abunch

of baloney. But I said, you know,you're the ones that

are supposed to be the victims. So, you know,if

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you're outthere, you can do a greater witness for God,

you know, being out there toshow them that you do want

to live, cause, you know, a dead Christian is a dead

Christian.

a HENRY: Right. ,

MR.KORESH: A live Christian is a witness.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR.KORESH: So, you know, and so I explained

to them, you know, if, if, if you all can, you know,

realize that -- See, the thing of it is we don't teach

that America has tobe punished. ~We teach that God

grants unto men an opportunity to seehis mistake in

the light of God'sword,and then repent of it.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR.KORESH: You know?And so that's the

wholething. So this, this is where me and Jim had a

good relationship on the phone, because, you know,I

began toexplain things to him. He, likeyou, is an

excellent listener and he began to realize that we're

not trying to be just radical idiots, you know, with

ragging our head off, you know,talking about

Armegeddon and stuff.

HENRY: Um-hum.

M.KORESH: Youknow,Armegeddon is -- the h

prophecies tell you is an end of time when God '

resurrects all the people that have ever lived and they

92

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attack the city of God. Ezekial talks about it. So,

you know, anyway, it'snot afew handsful of maniacs

trying to fight. That's not Armageddon at all.

HENRY: Okay.

* MR. KORESH: But,anyway, sothe thinc of it

is is that, you know, there's,there's, youknow,

there's threeof them here that are, you know, deciding

on, you know, whether, you know, they want to go or

DOC .

HENRY: Okay.

MR. KORESH: And so I'm talking to them a bit

more now, but -- So it appears tobe, like I say, I

told them what, what you promised todo for us, you

know, for us, which is for God, right?

HENRY: Umhum.

MR. KORESH: Because you'redoing it for our

God.

HENRY: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH= You know, for our belief in God.

HENRY: Um-hum.

M. KORESH: And, and so, therefore, you

know, this is the whole reason for the truth, anyway,

is to, is to beable to have what we believe known.

HENRY: Okay.

MR. KORESH: These people can decide better,

and then you can ask us questions if we're alive.

¢

25

HENRY: Right .

MR. KORESH: And if we're gone,then, you

know, no, no good. I agree with you guys, you know.

Two children, that's the, that's the main thing. And

two, two-of the women here.

HENRY: Okay. That sounds real good. I

really appreciate it.

MR. KORESH: Okay? Now, that's -- Now,

remember, they'redoing, they're doing this --

HHENRY: I understand.

MR. KORESH: -- simply because, you know --

Now, I'mtelling them point-blank you all may not, you

know, be 100 percent, but still their faith isin God.

So, you know, if you get them on the outside and all

that and don't doyour end of the bargain --

HENRY: No, we will. But, you know,that,

that'll start, that'll start the ball rolling and we'll

both reachour goals. Okay?

MR. KORESH: Okay. Well, I'll--

HENRY: Now --

MR. KORESH: I'll tell them that.

HENRY: Okay. Now, what Iwant to do is I _

want to, to get your tape as soon as Ican. One of the

things that we're considering, because a lot in terms

of radio, prime time is when the commute is on, okay?

MR. KORESH: The what now?

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HENRY: whenthe commutersare driving to

work is when primetime is on radioland, okay? So

you're workingonthe tape and should have it for me

soon. Is that correct?

I M. KORESH: Well, if I,if I get a chance to

keep making it.

HENRY: Okay.

MR. KORESH: But prime time, I thought, was

the time the people are driving home, whenthey get

home inthe evening.

HENRY: Well --

MR. KORESH: That's primetime.

HENRY: RadioI think is, is when everybody

is going to work, don't youthink? I mean, that'swhen

everybody really listens to the radio.

MR. KORESH: Well, that's, that's not

really-- Ask, ask the producersandthey'll tell you

opposite. But, anyway,likeI said, you'llbe playing

the Dallas one first, right?

HENRY: We'regoing to play Dallas and then.

we hope to go to national right away.

MR. KORESH: Okay.Now, 'causeI'msure,

like you say,the subject matter'llbe intense enough,

especially if radiostations could broadcast that it's

coming.

HENRY: Exactly.

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MR. KORESH: You know?And then that way,

you know, yeah, we could, like you said, and Arizona

will be from 11 to 1 orsomething, right?

HENRY: Um~hum. But --

l MR. KORESH: Okay, that's good.

HENRY: But wewant to go on this right away.

We'renot going to waittill 11 o'clock.

MR. KORESH: Oh, no, with the tape, the tape

needs to be given to youas early as possible.

HENRY: Yes. And as soon as wedo that,

we're goingto go national. We'llgo on KRLD and, and

then after that, we'llgo national.

M. KORESH: All right. And the national

willbe 11 o'clock,right?

HENRY: It'llbe as soon as, as - right

after KRLD playsit.

MR. KORESH: Well, howcan that be then? I

mean, howare you going to be able to get the tape to,

to Arizona?

HENRY:Well, we're-- Everybody, ora lot p

of, a lot of the national radio stations are here, you

know,in this general area.So we'regoing to find

somebody, you know,that's anational radio --

.MR. KORESH: Isee.$0 you're notgoing tobe playing it around 11 or 12 then?

HENRY: We'regoing to playit at 11 and 12

o'clock,too.But, you know, but, you

28

know --

MR. KORESH: Well, that's, that's whenwe're

coming out then, around 11 and 12, national time. Do

we have an agreement on that?

A HENRY: Well, you know, if that's --

MR. KORESH: That's whatyou

HENRY: Well,I to/ld--

told me before.

92

MR. KORESH: I asked you twice.

HENRY: Okay. And, and that's fine, I have

no problem. I, you know, I want to get you as soon as

I can to receive some medical attention.

M. KORESH: Yeah, I --

HENRY: Andthat's whyI've beenwanting to

get, you know,working from my end, pushing the bosses

hereto find me a way to get this into

national radiostation orwhatever, so

you some medical attention.

MR. KORESH: Okay. So, like

more than, I could more than last, I'm

o'clock. It'llbe our time, right?

HENRY: Okay. Okay,well --

prime time or

that I can get

I say, I could

sure, till 12 y

MR. KORESH:Like I say, that'swhenwe'll

come all out.

HENRY: Okay, well,that's fine.

MR. KORE$H= We're goingto,

to -- Like I say, once I get this tapewe're going

finished and,

92 v

29

like I said, I'mtrying to get it done now. I mean,I ..-

HENRY: Okay.

MR.KORESH: You know, I need to get it --

hurry upand get it done.

HENRY: Okay.

MR.KORESH= And, and I'm prettysure were

going to have two women for you and two children.

HENRY:Okay.

MR. KORESH: Okay?

HENRY: That's fine.

MR.KORESH: Are we, are we in tune?

HENRY: We're in tune.

M.KORESH: Okay, thanks, Henry.

HENRY: Thank you.

MR. KORESH: God bless you now. We'll talk

to you later, okay?

HENRY: Okay, I'll talk to you later.

MR. KORESH: Okay. Call me around --Well,

what time is it right now?

HENRY: It'sa little after six.

MR.KORESH: Already? Okay, give me a few

minutes here and then let me let this out, okay? -

HENRY: Okay. I'll call you back in a little

bit.

MR. KORESH: Okay, bye.

HENRY: Bye-bye .

End of Tape 10B.!

i

92 92

. 92


TAPE #1lA

03/02/93

2

DAVID: -- cut our lines off so I can't talk

to the radio programs. They're telling people that I'm

not communicating with them. And the reason being is

you all cut all our lines out

HENRY: Did, did -- was somebody working on

that?

DAVID: Well, Jim said so. But you know, we

know what'sgoing on.

HENRY: We want this thing to be resolved in

such a fashion that everybody

We don'twant anybody else to

one. Number two, if you have

would like for you to --

DAVID: Okay. Wait

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE

the tower? What?

comes out of this fine.

get hurt. That's number

a message, we certainly

a second.

SPEAKER: Someone's in

DAVID: Someone'sin the -- they're,they're

coming in.

HENRY: No, they are not coming in. There is

nobody anywhere close.

DAVID: Okay, look.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE

Hey, wait a minute.

SPEAKER: David was --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: David --

DAVID: What'she doing on the roof?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: What'she doingon the roof --

92

3

HENRY: Who's on the roof?

DAVID: Wait a minute. It may be one of our

guys.

HENRY: It's got to be.

" UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: -looks like

he's in -- it's one of the tower sentinels.

DAVID: Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Oh, Shit.

HENRY: Itfs, it's got to be one of yours.

Because our people arenot moving in. Nobody is. The

only, the only reason we're goingto move in is --

DAVID:

HENRY:

DAVID:

Wait a minute.

~ is to pick up the kids.

Unidentified voice in background not

discernible.! What? Unidentified voice in background

not discernible.!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Tell him --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: They were just

going to shoot --

DAVID:

Harry?

HENRY:

DAVID:

HENRY:

DAVID:

said Jim, listen.

Okay. I'msorry. What's your name,

Henry. Y

Henry, I'm sorry.

That's okay, David.

Okay. Now I asked, I asked Jim, I

If they'll let me present --I mean,

.-

~

0

92_

/'

92

;1

Q C

4

you know, this is our lives. You know, this depends on

how much you respect our lives. You know, if aman had

a-- let's sayI was before a firing squad. You would

give me at leastone last cigarette, wouldn't you?

»HENRY: Absolutely.

DAVID: Okay. If you would just allowme to

show one or two seals on radio, you know, get people --

I mean, I know it's asking alot from this system

today. You know everything costs money, air time and

all that. I'm, I'maware of that.

HENRY: Um-hum.

DAVID: And I've spent thousands of dollars,

you know. I've beentraveling and trying to get the

message out.

HENRY: Um-hum.

DAVID: If you'd justlet me present, you

know, the seals theway I see them.

HENRY: Uh-huh. _

DAVID: You know, then people would be able

to judgefor themselves.

HENRY: I'll tell you what --

DAVID: And then based upon that, we can

arrange something to where we all come out.

HENRY: Okay. I will work on exactly that.

And you telling me, David, I'mtrusting you. And I'm

puttingmyself totally in your hands that if I can

arrange to have

out. .

DAVID

5

you do that that everybody will come

:What I'm saying is is this. I'm

saying thatonce I'm ableto present thisif you

individuals,if you don'tcut me off and don't, you

know, don'tdo like what's beenhappening so far,

right, where everyone cuts me off. You know, hitting

me from the side with the questions that do not regard

the points I'mtryingto make then we'll come out.

HENRY

DAVID

HENRY

I'm holding you

DAVID

HENRY

you talk to the

on, on have you

what. We will

:You're telling me--

: I'mtelling you --

:You aretelling me and you're -- and

to your word that --

= Is that --

:-- if I can make arrangements to have

radio and what I will do is I will work

talking to, to a radio -- I'll tell you

-- what I'll dois I'll try to work on

getting you something totally and completely different

from anything that you'vehad before insuch a fashion

that, that we can present this, and it will go out to a

lot of radio stations. How's that?Would you be

willing to make

' DAVID

a tape?

:A tape? It's better if I give it

live.I mean, you know, I don'tneedto make a tape.

Because, you know, like I say I'dliketo hearit.

6

HENRY: Okay.

DAVID: Make sure it's going, you know,

nationwide or whatever.

HENRY

outside?

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID

HENRY

I'm --

DAVID

that.

HENRY

DAVID

HENRY

Okay. Could you come out and do that

I can't move.

We'll --

I can do it onthe phone --

-- we'll carry you out.

N0.

I'm saying if, if you want to do it.

No, see, there again we can'tdo

I'm, I'm-- I was just asking --

On, on --

-- if you wanted to do it that way.

If you don't,okay.

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID

HENRY:

DAVID

HENRY

On the telephone.

On a telephone?

On the telephone.

Okay.

And you know --

Let me work on that.

Okay, then get back with me. Okay?

Okay.

f

92

I

92

/

92-

7

DAVID: Because I indiscernible! I'm losing

by --

HENRY: Okay. Let me just ask you something.

We were working on getting some more kids out. Are you

ready togsend acouple more kids out?

DAVID: Well, let's, let's work on this now.

And because this avenue like I told Jim, I said Jim,

you know, because he'ssupposed to be still working

with me. I --what did he do now?

HENRY: Well, he's, youknow, he'sbeen

forever. We'regoing to have to give him alittle bit

of abreak. You understand that?

DAVID: Yeah.

HENRY: Okay. And I'll -and I promise to

work with you in the same fashion that he has. Now let

me, let me just propose acouple of things to you. You

consider them,okay?

DAVID: Okay.

HENRY: One of the things that I want to

propose is if we makeatape recording, one of the

things that we ensure is that nobody is going to

interrupt you with crazy questions or comments or

anything like that.

DAVID: Okay. What we'lldo then is we'll,

we'll --maybe we can make atape and avideo. And

then maybe you can play that.

8

HENRY: Now do you have, do you havea video?

DAVID: Yes, we have high eight.

HENRY: Okay. Well, why don't you start

working on that, and I will start working on it from

this end:

DAVID: Okay. All right, then we'lldo

something.

HENRY:Okay. Now I'mgoing to a little ~-

DAVID: That way at leastyou'll know where

I'm coming from.

HENRY: I'mgoing to need alittle bit of

time so that I can, so that I can work on this. In the

meantime, can we get --

DAVID: Okay.

HENRY: --some more children out or do

you -~ a

DAVID: Let's just hold off until we get this

spot figured out, all right?

HENRY: Okay.

DAVID: Ineed, I need some --see, I gave, I

gave Jim somemoney, right? H

HENRY: Yes. We have the money here.

DAVID: And he was going to pick me up a

phone, because our phone'sreally pretty bad. A lot of

people use them and we needed, we needed a better line.

Okay? Because you know we're -I mean well, I can't

F

92

,

move, so we're long extension.

HENRY: Okay.

DAVID: And so if we can get a new line and

phone from, you know, like I said I was going to pay

for it. I

HENRY: Okay.

- DAVID: Then we'dhave better reception.

HENRY: Okay. But do this for me, because

need to have these people, these bosses, you know,

they're alwaysreal pushy. You understand that?

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID:

HENRY:

I realize --

Okay.

-you got a lot of chiefs there.

Right. Send me two more kidswhile

we're workingon this so that they can, you know --

DAVID: I'll dothat.

HENRY: Okay. Okay.

DAVID: Okay?

HENRY: So what I'lldois whenever you -

DAVID: I'mglad you have a concern for the

children like I do because I have --

HENRY: Yes. Okay. What we will do is I

will start working on this, okay.And it's either

going to be avideo and the audio, or at least we're

going to get radio. But I'llget you something. Or

I'llgo to work on getting you something. Okay?

10

DAVID: Yeah. Let's, let's-- likeI say

you'll, then you'll know, understand where I'm coming

from.

HENRY: Okay. But I want you to understand,

okay, I'mgoing to hold you this. You're tellingme

that --

DAVID: I --

HENRY: -- that you're going to send

everybody out. I'm goingto want everybody out.

DAVID: Okay.

HENRY: Okay.

DAVID: Do what you can though.

HENRY: Okay. But send me a couple of kids.

I'mgoingto send a car to pick up the two kids.

DAVID: You got the van there now?

.HENRY: I'll send it, I'll send the van out.

Can we get the van over there?

DAVID: Yeah, well, giveme a call or --

HENRY: Okay. The van is goingthere right

now.

DAVID: Okay.

HENRY: And in the meantime, I'll work on

this and I'll call you back ina little bit.

DAVID: Okay. Thanks. -

HENRY: Thank you, David.

DAVID: Bye.

11

HENRY: Bye~bye.

[gap]

iii

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Blew the

transmission.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Oh, good.

[sap]

STEVE

HENRYSTEVE

HENRYsrzvs DAVID

HENRY

DAVIDHENRYDAVID

HENRY:

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID

HENRY:

DAVID:

HENRY:

DAVID:

iii

Hello?

Hello, David?

This is Steve. Is this Henry?

Yes,Steve.

Henry -- do you want to talk here?

Okay. You ready?

The car is ready topick up the kids

Okay.

Do you have the kids ready?

Yeah.

Okay.

Why don't--screaming in pain! --

Are you okay?Are you okay?

Oh, God. I'm back.

Are you okay?

I'm bleeding again.

Geez.

I coughed. Wait a minute.

Groaning.

the back.

starts it

you be int

have to be

they --

guess he's

Joshy?

Joshua's 7

12

!Oh, boy. Itgot me by surprise. '

HENRY: Um

DAVID:

And whe

Got the one hole in the front, one in

n I -- if I laugh or if I cough it

up again.

HENRY

DAVID u0

HENRY

DAVID:

HENRY:

erested

DAVID:

HENRY:

DAVID:

-- you

HENRY:

DAVID:

oh, man.

about -

Sure.

Groaning.! Boy. Okay.

which kids are you going --

When -- okay --

-- are you going to send down? Would

in sending out --

Jamie. His name's Jamieand Joshua.

Who's, who-- how old are they?

Well, Jamie'san invalid. So you

got aspecial chair and all that.

Okay.

The social workers here in town

They know him. And Joshua, he's, I

- how o1d's Joshuanow,6? How o1d's

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Seven.

DAVID: He's turned 6.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Joshua's7.

DAVID:

HENRY:

Oh, he's7 now? Okay. He's7.

And Jamie?

DAVID: And Jamie he's --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Nine.

DAVID:

HENRY: Okay.

DAVID = Okay?

HENRY: Are they your kids?

DAVID: No.

HENRY: Okay.

DAVID:

paper with them,

to kin and, and all that stuff, okay?

HENRY: Okay.

DAVID: Groaning.!

HENRY: I presented, I presented the

And, and sofar it'slooking,you know, pretty

But we, we have a bitof aproblem in terms of

time. Can you make a-- do you have something

could work

you have arecorder?

13

Nine.

He's 9but he's like 3, you know, 4.

Okay. We'll send a little, little

youknow, that tells you their closest

idea.

good.

the

that you

with sothat you canmake an audiotape? Do

DAVID: Yeah, but I justcan't get toit.

And it's, it'ssophisticated.

HENRY: They can't bring it over to you?

DAVID: We can't, wecan'tdo a little video?

HENRY: Well, see,what we'rehoping to do

and, and because this is a serious situation, okay.

DAVID: Yeah, it's very serious.

HENRY :

92

14

we're hoping to, to get this to a

serious Christian broadcasting network type national,

you know, broadcasting network that would, that would

give us maybe, you know, nationwide coverage on this

thing.

DAVID:

HENRY:

Uh-huh.

And if we talk in terms of avideo,

by the time we get it from here to, to --

DAVID:

to --

HENRY:

DAVID:

millimeter, 30, 33, 35 millimeter. Anyway,

HENRY:

DAVID:

HENRY:

if we could --

DAVID:

know where ~- do

studio and bring

To have it edited, transferred over

Yeah.

--to 10 -- is it 10 - I forgot what

yeah.

Um~hum. Umhum.

I know what you'resaying.

could,So if, if -- do you -- if we

Steve, how many,how many -- do you

you think we could break down the

some,you know,take out of the rack

and bring someindiscernible! and stuffrecorder in.

Because we need to do an unedited, high fidelity tape.

Okay.

STEVE:

DKVID:

STEVE:

Get Greg.

Okay.

Greg would know how to do it,

AU.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURYBUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS

TAPE #112 -HENRY GARCIA

03/02/93

FREE STATE REPORTING, INC.Court Reporting Depositions

D.C. Area 01! 261-1902Balt. & Annap. 10! 974-0947

RIT?92:

HENRY:

RITA:

HENRY:

»DAVID:

HENRY:

DAVID

it's --

HENRY:

DAVID

it done. It's,

HENRY:

really -- I don

DAVID:

HENRY:

DAVID:

2

Hello?

Rita?

Just a minute, please.

Hello?

Hello?

How are you doing?

I'm, I'mtrying to finish up. I mean

You making progress?

Oh, yeah. I'm trying,trying to get

it's raining outside, isn't it?

Well, I'minside of aroom. I can't

t have awindow.

Well, that's,that's heavyrain.

Is that right?

Yeah. Okay, yeah. Let me finish

this up, and I'llget right with you. Call me in about

another 15 minutes, okay? We should -

HENRY:

DAVID

HENRY:

DAVID:

HENRY:

for the rest of

About --

--be finished.

In about I5 minutes?

Right.

Okay. You -and we'restillon-line

the stuff. That is I mean we still

have the two womenand, and two, and two kids that


D.C. Area 01!261-1902Balt. &Annap. 10! 974-0947

C _ will --

DAVID

it.

:Right. Yeah, they said they'll do

HENRY: Okay. Okay.

HENRY

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID

match.

DAVID: Okie doke?

Okay.

Okay. Let me get back on this then.

Okay. Very good.

Oh, boy. I feel like I did a boxing

HENRY: Okay. Now try to keep it short

because, youknow, the, these peopleare not going to

want to play something that's reallong, okay?

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID

be?

HENRY

Okie doke.

Okay.

I mean how long do they want it to

Well,you know, remember the, the

thing that you did for Jim before?

DAVID

HENRY

you --

DAVID

HENRY

short. But you

How long was that?

About half apage or so. You know,

Oh, that?

You, you don't haveto make it that

know --

FREE STATEREPORTING, INC.Court Reporting Depositions


DAVID

HENRY:

hour or something

DAVID

least wanted to

HENRY:

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID:

HENRY:

All right.

But, but don't make it like a half

like that.

Like I said, I have to make it-- at

make the point, okay?

Okay.

Okay, thanks.

Okay.

Okay, bye.

I'lltalkto you later. Bye.

iii

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Is that all

right?

RECORDED MESSAGE:We're sorry. Your call

did not go through. Will you please hang up and try

your call again

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #1: Okay, now. I

mean I'll check on --

UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #2: Are they, are

they in --

iii

DAVID: Hello?

HENRY: Hello, David?

DAVID: Yeah.

HENRY: How are you doing?


D.C.Area 01! 261-1902

Balt. & Annap. 10! 974-0947

!

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID:

HENRY:

DAVID

We -- it's there. '

Okay. Is the tape done?

Yeah.

Okay.

Is the -- have they left yet? Have

they left yet? Unidentified voice in background not

discernible.! Wait one second. Have they left yet?

is?

know --


DAVID

HENRY:

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID

HENRY

DAVID

HENRY:

DAVID

HENRY:

DAVID

Okay. You got them yet down there?

No.

Well, they, they should be there.

Who has the tape?

The older lady,Katherine.

Do you know about how long the tape

It's almostan hour.

An hour?

Almost.

You know, you realize that, you

Well, that's, that's -- I made it a

simple and direct as possible. I couldn't getaway

with any less than that.

"Niall --

HENRY: You realize that I may not be able, I



92 92

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6

DAVID: I'll pay them.

HENRY: I, I--

DAVID: How much do they want?

HENRY: I, I--

- DAVID: I'll pay for the time.

HENRY: I understand what you're saying.I

don't havecontrol over that. What I,what I'll dois

I'll dothe best that I can. But I want you to

understand thatif it comes outchopped up,it hasnothing to do with me. You know we're,we --

DAVID: Well, have, have -look. It's --

HENRY: I'll,I'll workon it. You know, and

I'll workvery hard for you. Youknow that. Because I

want, I want to resolve this as just as much as you do.

DAVID: Yeah. This --

HENRY: Youknow that.

DAVID: This tape, like I say, if it's

played, you know, everything, everything's goingto be

all right, you know. Because it'slike I say it's,it

introduces so perfectly, you know, what the whole, how

the whole story got started. And I'll --

HENRY: Uh-huh.

DAVID: It, it tells the whole story.

HENRY: Okay. Now do --

DAVID: SO --


D.C. Area 01! 261-1902Balt. E Annap. 10! 974-0947

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