U.S. DEPARTMENTOF THE TREASURYBUREAU OFALCOHOL, TOBACCO& FIREARMS
TAPES # 1, 2& 3
February 28, 1993
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Tape 1!
MR. KAVANAUGH:Sunday the28th of February.
Telephone ringing! Indiscernible female
voice in the background.!
I MR.KAVANAUGH: I'mgoing tomess upthis
gentleman's desk,he's goingto hate agents whenwe
leave this place.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: I dOn't know,
if you leave indiscernible! David's gotour number.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Do they have any activity outthere? !
Telephone ringing!
TELEPHONE OPERATOR:Cellular One customer --
Telephone ringing!
MR. KAVANAUGH:Go out and check Penny with
Phil or Chuck or Krone. I think we might have lost one
of our walkies overthere andthey mayhave it or may
have tore-code all the radio traffic or they're going
to listen to everything we say, so -- well, because the
team might have lost one there. So manymen wereshot
they dropped -- are they -- well, just check for us --
he ain'tanswering.
Indiscernible female voice in background.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: SteveSnyder,
S-N-Y-D-E-R indiscernible!.
M. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, okay, so and tell Krone
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he needs to make arrangements with the communications
people, you know, Scheidler, to reprogram all our
radios.
Telephone ringing!
MR. KAVANAUGH:
stuff off
corner or
Could you cleanall this
this desk that's not ours and stack it in the
something? Telephone ringing!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Indiscernible!
car Beverly Road.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
out, there's a car going down
find out, there'sa car going
MR. KORESH: I wish
through.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
He ain'tpicking up.
SPEAKER: We need to find
Beverly Road. We need to
down Beverly Road.
you knew what I've been
David, listen now, I --
you've explained them to me and --
MR. KORESH: No, no, I haven't. I've not
even scratched the surface. Just like I told, just
like Itold Jerry, Jerry Gonzalez --
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: --
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: --
Yeah.
Robert Gonzalez --
Yeah.
I really likedthat guy too.
I've alwaysloved law enforcement becauseyou all guys
risk your livesevery day, you know.
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MR. KORESH: And --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Let me --
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH:
that. Listen, let me ask
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH=Your, your
can you tell me anything about their
just concerned for --
MR. KORESH: They're, they
am, that's for sure.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Not as bad
MR. KORESH: No.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Is anybody
blood that --
MR. KORESH: NO.
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- that we
get some medical --
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. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, I understand.
I'm so,I'm sosorry that --
David, listen, we, we know
you something.
other wounded men,
condition? I, I
re not as bad as I
as you are?
losing so much
can't help them
MR. KORESH:No, they're,they're bandaged
up. They're up and around.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Have you got them bandaged
up?
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Okay, and you think
they're stable?
J.
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MR. KORESH:Well, yeah, they're upwalkingaround. u
MR. KAVANAUGH: How are you doing? How is
that wound in the stomach?
uMR. KORESH: It's,it's --like I said, it's,
it's bleedingin both directions, you know, the --
MR. KAVANAUGH:Bleeding bad, huh?
MR. KORESH: They got these towels wrapped
around my waist and stuff and, and, you know,
squeeze --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Now see, you
keep -- you got to keep, you know, some -- little
pressure on that because it slows down the bleeding.
You got somebody can help you with that?
MR. KORESH: Well, it's -- the towel's real
tight --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Tight, yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- the tourniquet, you know.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. Anything else hurting?
MR. KORESH: Just my feelings.
M. KAVANAUGH: Your feelings, hey listen,
don't worryabout that. We're, we'retrying to, you
know, get this solved, and -- are you feeling sick or
dizzy or anything?
M. KORESH: That's theway I'vebeen ever
since I'vebeen talking to you, but, you know, feel,
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you know, anyway --
MR . KAVANAUGH:Yeah .
MR. KORESH:But like, you know,like I say,
let's, let'sget somepreachers andteachers andstuffand get -give me acall and, and tell them to show me
the truth, you know?
MR. KAVANAUGH:You know, I, I don't think
there's twoguysinthe world otherthan youand methat can solve this and --
MR. KORESH:I know, see, there you're,
you're doingyour job. Come on,you know,you'replaying --
MR. KAVANAUGH:No, I'm,I'm beingtruthful
with you, David, I, I want it --
MR. KORESH: Oh, come on.
MR. KAVANAUGH:-- I want it to stop and I
know you do too, come on.
MR. KORESH:You knowthere's noway tostop
this until, like I told you, just giveme thecoverage.MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, I --
MR. KORESH:If you let those, if you let
those men,the so-called [cut off and on]let them talk
to me, you knowwhat I mean? Andlet them show methe
seals where they're atin the Bible.
_ MR. KAVANAUGH= Well,you onething, David,
if, if you wouldlet us help you,you know,your
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message wouldcontinue, your word wouldgo out.
MR. KORESH:Look, look, I didn'thurt any
[cut off and on]
MR. KAVANAUGH: I, I understand that.
AMR. KORESH: indiscernible!some ofthe
people that are following shot people, all right?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Let meask you --
MR. KORESH:Now, I'mresponsible forthat,okay? In 1988 whenthe Sheriff'sDepartment wouldn't
get George Roden off the property --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah -- yeah.
MR. KORESH: It was '88, and-
MR. KAVANAUGH:'87, '88,yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- we went down to the Sheriff
Department andwe told them look,you know,we've got
restraining order against him. They're doingbad
things. They dug up one of the caskets out here and
the guywas crazy,thought hecould resurrectpeople.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:And so that stuff [cut off and
on] andthey won'tgo out there. So I hired a guy
namedSam Jones to come outand hewas kindof like a
friend of George, youknow. Andhe tookthe pictures
and we took them back up in '88to the Sheriff's
Department.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Hold on, what's that,okay?
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Hey, David?
MR. KORESH:Yeah? g
MR. KAVANAUGH: I just got the word that --
from the radio people. Okay. Hold on just a second,
I'm talkingto David. If you will give me yourmessage
they will play it.
MR. KORESH=I've gotto, I'vegot to do it.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, they, they said they
don't havethe equipment for that.
MR. KORESH: Well, they do. I deal with
radio audio technology. Transfer from, from waves over
to analog.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Just tell him that
David's gotto -- hewants to do it himself, see what
they can do. All right. That, that -- let
me --
MR. KORESH:And after that, and after that
like I say, you know, I just want to -- they never
would be honest with me before, they never would
confront mebecause whenI first started openingtheyalways ran off --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:-- started cussing me and stuff,
you know, in a religious way --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- you know, and told me I was
crazy and all that, but they'relooking right at a
book. You know if there's aGod in Heaven, they'rein
trouble, now I'm introuble.
MR. KAVANAUGH: David, how are the kids
doing? Anybody -
MR. KORESH:They're, they'reeating rightnow.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Eating? Okay.
MR. KORESH: They, they keep fit --I love
you daddy groaning sound!.
MR.KAVANAUGH: They're prettyscared. I
guess they'rescared aren'tthey?
MR. KORESH: No, they'renot scared.
MR. KAVANAUGH:No scared? Okay. Well, we
don't wantnothing to happen tothem andI kmowyou
don't either [cut of and on].
MR.KORESH: Yeah said something about mean
men, I told them, I said they aren'treally mean men,
they're just,they're justdoing what they --
MR.KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
message.
MR.KAVANAUGH: Dave, do you got somebody
there taking care of you?
MR. KORESH:Yeah, they're- you know,
they're, they're-like I said, we got some nursesand
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MR.KORESH= - because no one like's daddy's
,
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they've tourniquetme and they, they want to give me
some alcohol and I said no, I, I don't want- I
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, don'tdrink alcohol. No,
that's not good.
MR. KORESH: No, that thins the blood and all
that and --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, you -- it'll, it'll
make you bleed, yeah.
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Don't do that.
MR. KORESH: So --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, we don't wantyou to
bleed. Are you in a comfortable position?
MR. KORESH: No, there'sno comfortable
position, my friend.
MR. KORESH: Can, can you stand up?
MR. KORESH: Only - a little.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Little, well, but don'tit,
it'll -- you'll hurt, okay?
MR. KORESH: The only comfortable position
right now I guess would be six feet under, huh?
MR. KAVANAUGH:No, buddy, hey, that'snot,
that's not it.
MR. KORESH:Hey, that's,that's whatthey'd
do to me anywayif no one listens to my message.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey --
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MR. KORESH: Come on, it'safederal crime, I
know the laws,_I agree with the laws. I believe bad
guys need tobe dealt with. There'stoomuch bullshit
inthe world, okay? There's toomany people that
molest children, too many people that hurt people for
their own selfish gain, all right?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right.
MR. KORESH: They need tobe dealt with.
That's whatRome-- at least Rome got, got their crime
rate way down, they crucified people, they made an
example of them. But, you know, some,some --
MR. KAVANAUGH: David --
MR. KORESH:--some of the times they
misjudged, you know, and those are thepeople
indiscernible! to hear the prayer of Christ for
indiscernible! all my life I never knew whatI was
doing indiscernible! if you ever get a kingdombased
upon indiscernible! ignorance please remember
indiscernible!
MR. KAVANAUGH: David, I understand --
MR. KORESH:And I said to them,I says, I
say unto toyou today you should be with me in
paradise.
MR. KAVANAUGH: David, I understand and I
believe you, but I wantto knowwhatdo you think, how
could we resolve this?I mean, how could we save these
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children and women andeverybody who--I mean, howcan
we stopanymore ofthis and come on,youandme can doit -
MR. KORESH: Why did you start the war?
MR.KAVANAUGH: -you and me can do it.
MR. KORESH:Why didyou start the war? Why?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, David, I,
1--
MR. KORESH:Ignorance, right? Man, you know
indiscernible!
MR.KAVANAUGH: -- you, you understand --
MR.KORESH: -you are the bad guys, now you
found out we are indiscernible! okay?
MR. KAVANAUGH:No, you'renot the bad guys,
you, you, you understand --
MR. KORESH:Look, my father - I know you
don't [cutoff and on] Godsaid I'mgoing to bring a
flood and the world said no you aren't,andit came.
And Godsaid I'mnot going to bring a flood and the
world says yes you will and they built this tower
indiscernible! the Tower ofBabel, Towerof Babel, andbabel means confusion.
MR. KAVANAUGH: I understand.
MR.KORESH: Indiscernible! working together
trying to plan, plan a salvation against the next
coming floodand Godsaid no so he went andchanged
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their languages andconfounded their, their words and
sent them to different parts of the then known land and
divided the nations. That'swhy all nations look like
apuzzle; they once fit together.
MR. KAVANAUGH:David, I'm-- if -I'm,I'rn
not having much luck with this radio station. Let me
ask you something --
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! coming up now?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Huh? I'msorry? Nobody
should becoming up. Nobody's comingup.
MR. KORESH: Oh indiscernible! like I
said --
MR. KAVANAUGH:Now listen, let me ask youthis --
MR. KORESH: The only --
MR. KAVANAUGH:I, I'mhaving ~-
MR. KORESH:They're stillcoming, my friend.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Who is?
MR. KOREsH=The, the agents.
MR. KAVANAUGH:No, there are no agents
coming.
MR. KORESH: Yes, they are.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Nobody's --- <
MR. KORESH:We're watchingthem get closerand closer.
MR. KAVANAUGH:No, we- they were, they '
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were pulling back to the highway. They're, they're
DOC --
MR. KORRSH:No, they'renot, they'regoing
down Double-E.
MR. KAVANAUGH: David, I want you to listen
to the radio.
MR. KORESH: He has a white truck, armored,
huh?
MR. KAVANAUGH: I want you to listen to the
radio station at 4:55. We're, we'regoing to put a
message onfor you, but if you want your scripture
message and your word to get out, if you'll tellme I'm
going to try to get it on there. Now, Iunderstand
that it'snot the best, the best would be for you to be
on there. I understand that and Iappreciate and I
respect it. But I'vegot to be truthful with you: I
can't --I'm notgoing to trick you and I'mhaving a
lot of trouble doing that. If you will dictane it to
me I guarantee you Iwill have this guy put it out as
your words, okay? Work with me and, and let's putit
out. I mean, and, and then we can talk about maybe
some of the wounded coming out.
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Let's doit, come on, you and
me can solve this.
MR. KORESH=Okay. Like I say, I told you
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before, God didn't saynothing in heaven, right?
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Gave
the book to who? To the indiscernible! to the
indiscernible! right?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, I understand.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Now --
MR.
word-for-word what you want -- wanted to say.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Word-for-word
and --
MR. KORESH: Isa truck coming in?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Nobodys coming, I,
you my word.
MR. KORESH: Military coming in?MR.
road there'severybody but they're notcoming
nothing, you have my word on it. If you tell
you want to sayand I'm goingto get itout.
me word-for-word. You want to talk the seven
first?
MR. KORESH: Word on the word.
KAVANAUGH: Now, now, you got to give me
I give
KAVANAUGH: Nobody -- well, I mean on the
at you,
me what
Now, give
seals
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Go ahead. Slow now, I
got to write it.
MR. KORESH: Okay. My, my God, who sitson
the throne --
MR. KAVANAUGH: My Father, my God, wait a
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minute, sits
MR.
MR.
MR
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR.
MR.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
on the throne --
Has
MR. KORESH: --Of
KAVANAUGH:
KORESH: In
KORESH: --thi
KORESH: --
MR. KAVANAUGH: --
MR. KORESH= -- is
MR. KAVANAUGH: Is
MR. KORESH: -- as
KAVANAUGH:
KORESH: --
KAVANAUGH:
KORESH: In Heaven.
KAVANAUGH: Okay. All right.
.KORESH: Given me a book --
given me abook.
seven seals.
Seven seals. Okay.
Revelation 10, verse
Revelation 10, verse
ssealed book
Sealed book --
the mystery of God.
the mystery of God
to be finished --
to be finished
God has declared
God has declared
What is --
KORESH: Revelation 22 --
7 -_
7.
to his servants the prophets
KAVANAUGH: David, just -- I just want --
what does that mean, Revelation, this sealed bbok,
mystery of God, oh, you know -- you have the sealed
book?
MR. KORESH:Yeah, that'swhat I was opening
MR. KAVANAUGH:Oh, okay. I'm sorry.Go
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ahead.
MR. KORESH: In Revelation 22 --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum. Okay.
MR. KORESH: -- I come --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Every word which is the book
is with me.
MR. KORESH:To give unto every man --
MR. KAVANAUGH:Give unto every man. Okay.
MR. KORESH: -- the knowledge of the seven
seals.
MR. KAVANAUGH: The knowledge of the seven
seals. Okay. Is that all?
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Now listen buddy,
you've got,you've gotto hang in there for me. I
don't wantyou to faint now. Can -- you needto get
those towels changed?
MR. KORESH: Ah --
MR. KAVANAUGH:Why don'tyou -- do you --
don'thangup.
MR. KORESH: N0.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Just check with your nurses.
Do you want to change and we can just --
MR. KORESH: I've gotmore blankets here.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. You got some blankets?
Okay. All right. Now, I'm goingto read this back to
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you, okay? '
MR. KORESH: Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Because, you know, I'm just
not the greatest writer. I'm goingto read this back
to you and you tell me if there'sanything you want to
change or if it'swhat you want, okay? All right. You
ready?
MR.KORESH: Okay.
MR.KAVANAUGH: My Father, my God, who sits
on the throne in Heavenhasgiven me a book of seven
seals. In Revelation 10, verse 7, this sealed book,
the mystery of God, is to be finished asGod,has
declared to his servants the prophets. In Revelation
22, I --
MR.KORESH: Come.
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- come my reward which is
the book is with me to give unto every man the
knowledge ofthe seven seals. Now, should I say this
message was from David Koresh?
MR. KORESH: David Koresh.
MR. KAVANAUGH: David Koresh.
MR.KORESH: David Koresh.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Koresh.
MR.KORESH: Koresh.
MR.KAVANAUGH: Okay. Now, I'm goingto get
thison, and let'syou and me agree [gap]
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MR] KORESH: What radio station is it going
to be on?
MR. KAVANAUGH: It's going to be on 1080 in,
in one minute.
MR. KORESH:Anybody, anybodyknow
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, wait, hold on, hold on
just aminute, David, hold on.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: Let me cut a
deal before you play it. Don'tplay it yet.
MR. KORESH: 1080 --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey listen, there'samessage
coming on in one minute on, on 1080 for you, and the
reason - we want to give you our word, we've told the
media that and that we're notgoing to come, there's--
no more agents are coming and, and I want you to hear
itfrom them and you know that theyknow we - you
know, everybody knows whatATP said and what you said,
that we'regoing to try to settle itpeacefully, okay?
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Can you -do you have a
radio there?
MR. KORESH: That's - I'm getting one now.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Get one -- he's
getting theradio. Okay, good. 1080 AM, David.
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible!
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MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, well --
MR. KORESH: You guys have to go a -- it's
kind of, it's kindof hard to have to do what you all
got to do and --
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, I have --
MR. KORESH: I know your destinations
heaven.
MR. KAVANAUGH: I've, I've,I've beenout in
the woods and I'vehad that happen to me [cut off and
on] raiding a moonshine still.
MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: You know, we used no catch
those old boys making a little whiskey?
MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: And what, what part of the
country are you from?
MR. KORESH: I was born in Houston.
MR. KAVANAUGH= Houston, yeah.
MR. KORBSH: And there's, there's batteries
in there. I was born in Houston, raised in the Dallas
area.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, yeah, yeah.
MR.KORESH: Texas boy --
M. KAVANAUGH: Texas boy.
M. KORESH: -- horses.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Horses, yeah.
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MR. KORESH: You know about those Four Horses
in the Revelation.
MR. KAVANAUGH: The Four Horses from --
MR. KORESH: That's right, the horses go to
and fro the earth and the heathen are at ease. They
don't care about them.
MR. KAVANAUGH: The Four Horses of the
Apocalypse.
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Is that right? ,
MR. KORESH: The Revelation, the Apocalypse,
yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Horse is an interesting
animal.
MR. KORESH: Well, the thing of it is is
there's atruth about them in the Bible.
MR. KAVANAUGH: I don'tknow. My wife used
to have some and she loves horses.
MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah. You should see the
horses where I come from.
MR. KAVANAUGH= Beautiful?
MR. KORESH: Gigantic, massive.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, David, on thisvmessage,
I'm, I'mworking on the -- you should be hearimg this
one any minute if you can get your radio on.
MR. KORESH: Can someone, can someone turn
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the --
MR.KAVANAUGH: 1080 AM -- 1080. I
MR.KORESH: 1080 AM. Tellhim to play it
once or twice if we don'tcatch it.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, tellthem to play it a
couple times if you don't ~-tellthem to play t a
couple times so he can hear it.
MR.KORESH: Is it a Country and Western
station or --
MR. KAVANAUGH:1080, it'sKRLD, yeah, it's
kind of a -~ letme turn this radio on, David, andsee
if I can get --
MR.KORESH: Okay. It's on now.
MR. KAVANAUGH: It's on?Okay, good.
MR KORESH: Pick it up. My name is Koresh,~
Ytell them Koresh.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Tellthem that his nqme is --
tellthem David's nameis Koresh.
MR.KORESH: Yeah.
MR.KAVANAUGH: Koresh. Get it right.
MR. KORESH: Pick it up louder.
MR.KAVANAUGH: Here it is.
RADIO BROADCASTER: Indiscernible!
negotiations are going on and both parties are seeking
a peaceful resolution to the situation.
O MR.KAVANAUGH:Callhim David Koresh,it's
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moments.
hear me?
you.
for me?
important.
situation.
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RADIO BROADCASTER: Negotiations are
continuing. I'll be back with you in just a few
Join us at 5:05 with full details --
MR. KAVANAUGH: David?
MR. KORESH: Sir?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Now listen, he.- they
kept their word.Now, the only thing is they didn't--
MR. KORESH: I can't hardly hear you.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Are you okay? Can you
MR. KORESH: Turn that radio down.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, sure.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Here we go.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. David?
MR. KORESH: Sir?
MR.KAVANAUGH: Okay. I'mgoing toget your
scripture messageon there too.Now, I kept my part of
the bargain here, I'vegotone messageon there for
MR.KORESH: Okay. .I
MR. KAVANAUGH:Can you, can you dofsomething
M. KORESH: Yeah, what do you want?
MR. KAVANAUGH:1, I want some of the wounded
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people, I want someof the wounded people.
MR. KORESH:I mean,they're upand aqoundnow, you know?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, butDavid, theyre
bleeding or hurt, they need treatment.
MR. KORESH:Well,they're not bleeding.
Most of it was -- where did Scott get hit, in the hand?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Scott ~-
MR. KORESH: Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Scott was hit in the hand?
MR. KORESH:Where wasBig Boyhit? in the,in the, in theside ofthe leg?Just agraze? ,Okay,
just a graze. It, it scared him morethan hurtfhim,huh?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Okay, but howfabout
?some ofthe kids? Can weget someof the children outI mean, we --
MR. KORESH: When we, when we finish!our
working this stuff out then youcan comeand havethe
kids, all right?
MR. KAVANAUGH:I'm sorry,David, say thatagain.
MR. KORESH=I said when weget ourimessage
out and stuff then you can have the children,!all
right?
MR. KAVANAUGH:All right. Now, yougive me
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MRKORESH: Hey, my-- I gave youmyiword.
MR KAVANAUGH:Okay, buddy, I trust you and
I believe you I'mgoing to get this message outand
then we can get the children, right? »
MRKORESH: Right.
MRKAVANAUGH: All right. God blessryou, I
love you Now, Iwant youto stay on withme, okay?MRKORESH: All right.
MRKAVANAUGH: All right. I want to get
this to the radio station right away.
MR KORESH:Let's, let's,you know, hear it
MRKAVANAUGH: All right. Look, hold on,I'm talking to David.
MRKORESH: You're-and you're, you're
going to have those scholars call me up, right?
KAVANAUGH: Well,I hadn'tgot to that
KORESH: Try, try for me.
KAVANAUGH:I will try, I give you my
d b twhen we lathis messageasagreed, David'swor , u p y
going to let usget the children out.
MRKORESH: But they're-~
Gunshot!
MRKAVANAUGH: Okay?
MRKORESH: They're shootingat us again
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indiscernible!.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Who'sshootingout chem?
Find out who's shootingout there.
MR. KORESH: Out in the field.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, hehears them -~ tell
those agents whoever thehell's shooting tell them to
stop. Turn thosepeople back.
MR. VANAUGH: We don'tknowwho'sshboting,KA
David. It -we'regoing to find out.It's non us.
We just got the word backthat we are not shootng. It
ight be one of your guys in the far corner of them
building.
MR. KORESH: No, no, no, no, they're
.shooting -~ what? Yeah, don't[cut off and on]
MR. KAVANAUGH=We're notfiring.
MR. KORESH: No, I'mtalking to the, to the
9uY5-
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Nowlisten, okay,thisisour agreement, okay?I'm goingto playthefmessage,I'm -~and I'mgoing to,I'm goingto tell them topronounce your name right, okay? p
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Because I'msorry tme way
they calledyou Vernonlast time but I'mgoing to25 get --
M. KORESH: Yeah.
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MR. KAVANAUGH:--David Koresh and then --
MR. KORESH: Koresh.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Koresh?
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH:And thenwe're goingto getthe children out, okay? And --
MR. KORESH:Well,like I said, I want these
scholars to call too. I mean --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well --
MR. KORESH:--you'renot just going to come
up hereand take themout, you'regoing to, you1re
going to tell them, you know,that I want somereplies
on that and I want someone toshow mefrom scriptures
where the seven sealsare foundandthen I knowlI'm
wrong.
MR. KAVANAUGH: But David -
MR KORESH:That's, that'sall I'mqsking --MR. KAVANAUGH: --I know that --
MR. KORESH: --for life, man.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay.
MR. KORESH: Come on, bend a bit.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH=Well,if I --let, let$ go one
step --let me play this messageand, and, andflet's
get some --all right --
MR. KORESH: Get some feedback back.
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MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
bassdown.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
you send the
MR.
religious --
MR
MR
know --
MR
MR
MR.
MR.
. KAVANAUGH:
.KORESH: -~
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KAVANAUGH: Okay.Let's playthe messageand then we'll talk.
KORESH: Okay. Turn the radio on.
KAVANAUGH: Okay.Well, they ainqt goingto get it on that fast.
KORESH: Well, that's tooloud, I can't
hear my friend here.
KAVANAUGH: Too loud?
KORESH: Turnthe trebleup andturn the
KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible! David?
KORESH: Yeah?
KAVANAUGH: Letme askyou this, buddy.
KORESH: Uh-huh.
KAVANAUGH: I'llplay the messaga, okay,kids out.
KORESH: I'mnot going to do thad. You
play the message like you said --
KAVANAUGH: Okay.
KORESH: - and put me so-called
some leaders on there --
Um-hum.
and put it on air, you
.KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
.KORESH: -- and, and explain to me what
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the seven seals are.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, David, I,I think you
know more about that than anyone.
MR. KORESH: Well, okay, then -
MR. KAVANAUGH: And I --
MR. KORESH: -- then my position is, is, is
standard isn't it?
MR. KAVANAUGH: It, it is, buddy, I mdan you
respect it.
know more about it than anyone. There's no onefcan
dispute you. I'm nottrying to argue that poind. I
MR. KORESH: I know, but --
MR. KAVANAUGH:I,I just want us to make a
M.
going to take
MR.
you send some
MR.
MR.
MR
don't want to
MR.
MR.
small movement toward a peaceful agreement.
KORESH: Yeah, but, but you're not just
our children. K§
KAVANAUGH:Okay.Well, would yob, would
of the ladies out?
KORESH: Huh?
KAVANAUGH: Someof, some of thefwomen
KORESH: The - any women -- thelwomen
go -- they'll go,everyone of usgwill
KAVANAUGH: Okay.
KORESH: -- once we get our chanpe to
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discuss thiswith theso-called mindsthat thinkthatthey know the seven seals. i
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Well, what, whatanswer --
MR. KORESH:Indiscernible! it'sagainstreligion --
MR. KAVANAUGH:What, whatwould you-- what
-- if -- whatmessage areyou lookingfrom them,David?I don't think --
MR. KORESH:Iwant them toshow mefkom the
prophecies wherethe sevenseals arefound, justgivethe referencesso everybodycan hearthem.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, you know the
references. Youtell meand I'llhave iton theradio.MR. KORESH: Iknow it.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:But thething of it is, do they?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, you, you wantto know?MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Idon'tthink they know.
MR. KORESH:Well, okay, so --
MR. KAVANAUGH: So -- we know --
MR. KORESH:-- I mean they'rein troublearen' tthey?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, Iagree with you.
MR. KORESH:Then myFatherisfixingjto do
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some veryawesome thingsin this little world.gReadIsaiah 24. That's whatyou all boys havedone in
Isaiah 24,you know,it's aterrible [gap]
MR. KAVANAUGH:You're, you'renot goingtodie, comeon, we'regoing to-we,we gotsome1--we're takingsome shotsfrom yourguys.
MR. KORESH: Where?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Hold on, David.
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible!
MR. KAVANAUGH:Hey, thisisDavid. Are hispeople shooting?
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #2:Indiscernible!MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, yourpeople area
shooting ourguys behindthe rearbarn andwe're notfiring at all.
MR. KORESH: No, we'renot.
MR. KAVANAUGH:He says-- Davidsayslthey'renot shooting.
MR. KORESH:Go, go down -- because
indiscernible! godown thereand indiscernibleb
MR. KAVANAUGH:well, you'dbetter che%:k.He-- they keep telling us --
MR. KORESH:Got tohold offon thoseboys.MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, tellthem tohold off I
mean, youknow, I'dtell themdon't shootthem butifpeople are shooting at them, you know --
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MR. KORESH:Yeah. yMR.KAVANAUGH: Let's work,let's workout
something. Is there anybody inthere?
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #2:Our guysaretaking fire.
MR.KAVANAUGH:Our guysare takingfire.
Our guysaretakingfire.Now, that's notkeeping yourend ofthe bargain.Seeifyou can stopthem, buddy,come on.
MR.KORESH: They're, they'redown there.
We're notshooting at them.
MR.KAVANAUGH: Well, we'retakingit; I've
confirmeditthree times.We aretakingfire. iTheyneed theword fromyou, you'rethe top man. Tel themnot to fire.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
MR.KAVANAUGH: Don't breakyour word mow.
MR. KORESH:I'm notbreaking mywordq
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay.
MR.KORES1-I: we -- there [gap] I
MR.KAVANAUGH:Everybody-stop, everybkdy--MR. KORESH:Whoisdown at the barn ight
now? Go and try --
M. KAVANAUGH: Dave --
MR. KORESH:Someone's shootingup toqardshere.
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MR. KAVANAUGH: David said maybe it'snot ATF
shooting but somebodys shootingfrom the barn. Okay.
We're goingto suppress everything from the barn.
MR. KORESH:Yeah, go find out what's going
on down there.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Tell them to stop shooting,
everybody stop shooting.
MR. KORESH: No one here is shooting.
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, no shooting now?
MR. KORESH: Huh indiscernible! firi --
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay, okay,okay. There's,there's noshooting now, right?
MR. KORESH: No.
_ MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay, good.
MR. KORESH: We never have shot.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Is there any elderly people
that might want to come out, you know?
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! and then you're>
just firing at us? How did-- what,they gotthebinoculars on him? f
MR. KAVANAUGH:In the distance? we11LthatI
might be some crazy rancher. We'll,we'll checkon it.
They saythey tooka roundfrom way,way offsomewhere.They don'tthink it'sATF. Putthe wordout, anybodywho's shootingat them --
MR. KORESH:Hey, you got, you got, you got
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the zoom on him? Ishe ATF or what?
MR. KAVANAUGH:They got a spotting scope on
the guywho'sdoing the shooting. Might besome crazy
rancher or redneck out there. I don'tknow. We'll,
we'll -we're goingto put a stop to it.
MR. KORESH: Hey, could you get a -- where's
Steve? What'sthe name ofmy buddyacross the street?
What'shisname? Can youget RobertGonzalez onthe
phone so I can talk to him?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Oh,he's,he's,he'sgone.MR. KORESH:Where did he go?
MR. KAVANAUGH:I, I don'tknow wheregtheysent him. He's notaround.
MR. KORESH: Tell him, you know, I --
MR. KAVANAUGH:I'll tellhim whatever you
want.
MR. KORESH:- Ireally did like that guy,I really did. I -- you know,I-- oh, they'redroppingsnipers on the DoubleE?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Hey, tell your guys t1f1ats --
just theperimeter, that'sall, nobody'scominglin.Just the perimeter, that'sall --
MR. KORESH:Yeah. ,
MR. KAVANAUGH:-- nobody'scoming inl
MR. KORESH:Well, youall needto, ypuallneed to, you all need to go to the scopedrifles.
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MR. KAVANAUGH:He's tellinghis guysto goto the scoped rifles. Better pass that on
indiscernible! hey,hey, andthey cansee them,theycan see them on the Double-E Road over there David
says.
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Sandra. Davidsaid they cansee agents on the Double-E Road.
MR. KORESH:Yeah, wegot, wegot powerfulzooms on those guys.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, I'lltell them to back
up. I, I wish we couldget somethingout onthismessage.
MR. KORESH: Well, let's d0 it, let's-
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, let'sdo it. I'Ill tell
you what,you gotmy wordI'll giveyou onemessage,I'll giveyou this second message.I'll haveit
played, I'll do it first -- '
MR. KORESH:See whatyou cando now..
MR. KAVANAUGH:-- and then yousend somekids out. .
MR. KORESH:Not yet, no, youhave thescholars call me first.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Let me ask youlthis:
if I can do this --
MR. KORESH:Is your name Kavanaugh?
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MR. KAVANAUGH:Yes, sir.
MR. KORESH: Kavanaugh.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Jim Kavanaugh.
MR. KORESH:I thought your name was Lynch.
MR. KAVANAUGH:No, no, Jim Kavanaugh, that's
right, yeah, Jim Kavanaugh,um~hum. Italked to Steve
earlier, you know.
MR. KORESH: All right.
MR. KAVANAUGH:We, we,we, we stopped all
the gunfire. Here's whatI --
MR. KORESH:You guys located down in Waco
there?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, down in Waco, uhkhuh.
MR. KORESH:Gotthat,got that old steel --steel-walled room in there, huh?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Oh, it'snothing like that.
Hey David, I mean if I could get us to make an
agreement here, I can'tget --
MR. KORESH:Do anotherthing, tell sheriffThorn that I really liked him.
MR. KORESH:Sheriff Thorn that you like him?
MR. KORESH:Yeah, that, you know, I, I
really thoughthe wasa decentman andeverything andtell him I'm sorrythat he doesn't knowreally wherewe're coming from and -~
MR. KAVANAUGH: I understand.
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MR. KORESH: -- of course, you know, tell
Harwell, you know, after we're gonehe can still come
fishing.
MR. KAVANAUGH:You're notgoing to be gone.
MR. KORESH:Well, it depends on what you all
going to do for me.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Hey, we'renot cominglin
there. I want to get ~»
MR. KORESH:Well, it depends --look, look,
it depends on what you guys do for me.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay.
MR. KORESH:You gotall the technology, youcan hookme up,you know?People likestories,ithey --you know, or TV, come on.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, yeah, Iknow.
MR. KORESH:And look,I'll makemyself looklike afool onTV, ifyou all just letme, youknow, onTV just, you know,blankit just like [gap] my words
and stuffand, andthen, youknow, peoplewill likethat. It'skind oflike,you know, notlike thepresident talking, it's kindof like the [gap] g
MR. KAVANAUGH:David, thething is id, if Iplay - if Iget them toplay this scripture, Igmean
it's likeI wantyou to,you know,do somethinggfrommyside, Imean -- Q
MR. KORESH:I am. I, I gave youthe}
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scripture soyou couldknow whatyou're fightingagainst.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, I understand that, but
I mean, I'm goingto get it played on the radio and I'd
like to see somepeople that are hurt come out.
MR. KORESH: what the -~
MR. KAVANAUGH:One person,one person,that's all, just oneperson. Ifyou'll agreetd sendone -- g
MR. KORESH:Well, you'vealready gotqyou'vealready gotsome peopledown atthe, theshop. EYou'already got --
MR. KAVANAUGH:I don'tknow. I haved't beenat the shop. '
MR. KORESH:Yeah, youknow, youalready gotthose guys, they're withyou.
MR. KAVANAUGH: If you send out --
MR. KORESH:You alreadygotPaulFatqa andindiscernible!.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. I,I wasn'tawake ofthat.
MR. KORESH: You know?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, butI meanif yoL'dsend outany motherand child,one ortwo. I'mhotasking youto sendoutallyour people, I'd just,liketo get somebody maybethat's hurtor scared out,!I'll,
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I'll getthis playedand thenwe'll goto Step 2. Let,let's do it.
MR. KORESH:
ask again and see if a
asking again if anybod
DOC
All right. Let me go run and
ybody wants to leave, you know.n
MR. KAVANAUGH:They're goingaround and
MR. KORESH:
MR.KAVANAUG
y wants to leave.
So youwant tocallme back?:No, let's nothang upi Let'sH
hang up. I'lltellyou what, if you wantto restwhy don'tyou just lay
open line because what
and
you
and
are
you
stuff get on these
know? And you and
everything, and eve
talking and, and th
care for people and
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH
MR. KORESH:
MR.KAVANAUGH
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH
you acult when you're
believe thatthe radio
don't tell them that.
MR.KORESH:
the phone down and, and leave an
happens isall theseneijhborsL
phones and I couldn'tged you,
me have to work it out. U mean,
rything isokay ifyou an?meats the main thing. Because
, andyou're sincereand honest.>
I care about myFather [gap]:That's right.
-- in Heaven.
:I know you do.
I care about --
:I don't knowwhy theypall just religious people. Ifcant
says that stuff, but you know we
Do you understand, David?
But that'swhatthey say and
40
that's why you can't blame them.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, people callyou that, I
don't, Idon't --we don'tfeel that way. I maan, we,
we know you just --
MR. KORESH= Come on, come on, look --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, listen, hold it, you're
a Christian man, that'sall. 92
MR. KORESH: I'm notaChristian man. .
Remember, inthe sightof theworld I'macult leader,remember, let's take it atthat. i
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well --
MR. KORESH:I'm notoffended, all right?
I'm justhurt becausethe sevenseals, myfriend,92and
whatever God says he'sgoing to do in those seals:
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. What,what can weido
on this, on this agreement, I mean, if I can get this
message played? And, and I'm goingto do my best do
get just yourwords exactly, would you just -- I mean,
I've gotall these bosses too and I mean, you're,
you're --
MR. KORESH: Don'tworry about no bosses,
like I say, if, if they're goingto come here and shbot
us allup, they're going to come and shoot us all--
MR. KAVANAUGH: I ain'tgoing tolet nobody
shoot youup, I ain'tgoing to let nobody --
MR. KORESH: Well, you know, you--
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MR. KORESH:I'm theguy that'sputting astop to --
MR. KORESH:~- you'regoing to smoke bombusor you'regoing to burn our --
MR. KAVANAUGH: N0.
MR. KORESH:- building down orwhatever,you know?
MR. KAVANAUGH:We're notdoing it, I?m notgoing to let them do it.
MR. KORESH:But the thingof it is id that
you letthem comeininthe first place. Those guysare notlike us,they don'tknow whatthey're doing
indiscernible! they're,they're doinga job,they'retrying tomake aliving, they'retrying toraisetheirfamilies. Youknow, youguys fromthe top,man, you
just put itto me straight,those guyswere
they cameout here, those guysare probably
shots, youknow? Butno, theywere scared,indiscernible!.
MR. KAVANAUGH:I'm tryingto get
side, it'simportant, very important.
MR. KORESH:We told them to get O
scared whencrack
you knbw
them on our
ut.You
know, peoplehere aremarksmen too,you knowwhatI mean?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Hey, I understand that.
MR. KORESH:But thethingof it is is that,
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you know,God alsohas anarmy. You need to read
Isaiah 13, see whatcan happenon you. It's nonsense
to have so many-- there'sno herosin this kind ofstuff, man.
MR. KAVANAUGH:What's that?Hold on, David.
What's that?A radioguy? Youtell him thatI --that -- you tellthem JimKavanaugh saidhe -~1wemighthavea messagefor himto playand I-~ andhe's goingto have to do it. All right. Hang ona minutei
MR. KORESH:All right. ,MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, getthatmessaga back
to him,you tellhimthatI -- yeah,that's right,okay. All right. Hold on. All right. Look -»
MR. KORESH:You can tell them I've beenl1
wounded andshot if youwant to, thatmight make92them
happier.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Well -- no, well, I donft
know --you know,I can't- you know howthe news
media is?I mean,they're -theydo things ontdeirown butwe're, we'retrying todo everythingwe cahtodo what'sright byyou. Andlet's dothis:let'smakean agreement.I'm goingto getthis thing on theair,the wordabout theseven sealswill be out. We'llhave
an, an agreement, a couple of people, once the word
comes backif anybodywantsto go andthen themess%gewill be out, then we'll talk further. I, I,I like}
1 43
dealing withyou becauseyou're theguy in chdgé and,and, and those people believe in you like no others in
the world and they --
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH:-- will do what you Uell them
to do, what you ask them to do.
MR. KAVANAUGH:But I can onlydo whatmyFather haswritten for me to do, that'swhy those
. Kpeople aresupposed toknow thatI'm notcrazy.» If Idid not --
MR. KAVANAUGH:I don'tthink you'reckazy.
MR. KORESH:-- look, look,if I did not showpeople fromthe bookthe wordof Godwhat Godhasstated shall be in the last days --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:-- aboutmy comingand why92Icome this way --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:-- that I will notallowanybodyto believeme. Youcannot beflesh andblood. Bqtwhat iswritten inthe testimonyfromthose who sthrtedthe ChristianChurch, youknow, Moses[gap] Malachi--
MR. KAVANAUGH:Let meask yousomethingl letme askyou something,you mayknow aboutthis. Wh%tabout thatthing theycallthe, the Ark?Do youknbwabout that? I -- i
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MR. KORESH: Noah's Ark?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Noah -~
MR. KORESH: Or the Ark of the Covenant?
MR. KAVANAUGH: The Ark of the Covenaht.
MR. KORESH: Oh, it'sabeautiful thihg, yes.
I'm fixing to show you where it's at.
MR. KAVANAUGH:No, no, no. Noah'sArk,
that's whereall the people weresaved?
MR. KORESH:Well that's indiscerniblk!92
Mount Ararat.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Huh?
MR. KORESH: It's inTurkey right now.l when
the earthquake took place, the glacier busted --
MR.KAVANAUGH: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: -- and exposed it.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:That's the-- one of the signsat the end.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Like Noahwasamessengekandyou'rea messenger and, and you say yourfunction k-
MR. KORESH=Well,no, what happensis our
message is to the world butthe scriptures saw that it
was time no longer it'd belike in Noah's day-- g
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR.KORESH: -- you know?
MR. KAVANAUGH: But they weresaved, the
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people that carried the word.
MR. KORESH:That wentinto the Ark, yes.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, they were saved
and --
MR. KORESH:So Isaiah testified the day
come whenGod willmake aman ahiding place[gap]Christ unless you know what he knows, as >
indiscernible! says the knowledgeof the holy is
45
will
in
understanding, thefear ofGod ismade ofwisdom92andyou don'tknowwhat'son God'smind withthose sehl
then you won't knowwhat's onmy mind. '
MR. KAVANAUGH:I'm checkingwith the peo
indiscernible!. I
MR. KORESH:If you don'tknowwhat'sowmind then you don'tknow what'son the mind of thel
prophets. If we're notin perfect harmony with all
that thescriptures havespoken, we'renot walkingstraight [gap]
MR. KAVANAUGH: I understand.
MR. KORESH: SO --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Man's asinnerand --
MR. KORESH: Yeah, but there's onlyone
indiscernible! unforgivable.
MR. KAVANAUGH: You, you told me earlier
you -- you know, you couldn't-- they couldn't
understand and,and I believe you, I believe you.
s
ple
my
of
that
t§hati
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MR.KORESH: That's becausethey're not here.>
Isaiah says in Isaiah 6 where hetalks of the six-
wingedseraphim ~~
MR.KAVANAUGH: Umhum?
MR.KORESH: -- it'sthe same as Revelation
Chapters4and 5. And Isaiah says [gap] andhe talks
about aneventthat'll take place to, to bring it all
down tothenutshell. And so here we are at the92Day ofI
the Lord, all the prophets talkabout thegreat and
dreadful Dayof theLord whenGod willmake inqu%sitifor blood.
MR. KAVANAUGH:That's nottoday, DavidMM. KORESH: Oh, it is.
MR. KAVANAUGH: We're goingto
MR. KORESH: It's, it'sa progress. I
MR.KAVANAUGH:No, your,your peopleare,are going to continue on and, and you'regoing to
spread your message and,and, and your messageis even
going to go further.
MR.KOREsH= There's ATPagentswho are nowdead, right? !
MR. KAVANAUGH: I'm notsure. There were
some guyshurt bad on the roof but, you know, I donlt
know.
MR. KORESH; They're dead.
MR.KAVANAUGH: Hold on. Give me a
>
I
47
confirmation someagent's dead.I got to tell him.
They heardit on the news. Okay. Checkon that. I
know wehad some, some in intensive care.
MR. KORESH: Fourteen wounded --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay.
MR. KORESH:-- two of them were dead.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Yeah,he's gotl--
yeah, that'sright. Theyconfirmed, you'rerigdt, fourdead.
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: Tell me --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH:- that we're goingto belable
to present our truth. If you can lie that good -
MR. KAVANAUGH:No, I wouldn'ttellyou that,
that wecould -- that there'snot consequencesto that.
MR. KORESH:Exactly. ,»
MR. KAVANAUGH:I wouldn'tlie to you,}butthat doesn'tmean -- .
MR. KORESH: If I -- and if I --
MR. KAVANAUGH:-- your word doesn'tgd out.
MR. KORESH=-- if I'm wrong[gap] tomh asyou wish. I've always-- have to check my school
records, always was a good citizen --
MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, if, if you --
I
92
QO
l 48MR. KORESH:-- you know? If I've donewrong
thenIneed to bepunished. Psalm7 saysif Ihave
rewarded evilto him that wasat peaceto me, that
there beiniquity in my hand,you know,that bookiswrong.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes.
MR. KORESH:Itsays, yea,Ihave deliveredthem. How you get delivered?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:The truthis to set youree --MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:-- youknow? Thenlet the enemytrample my glory to the ground.
MR. KAVANAUGH=Yeah, I'mhere, buddy,»Iheard you and I --
MR. KORESH:My hearingseems tobe goingoutfor some reason. Y
MR. KAVRNAUGH:Hey, I-- we'vegot to,we'vgot todo something.I wantto getthat messageloutfor youlike Ipromised,and havethey comebackltotellyou if anybody wants to go out?
MR. KORESH:No, I think they'restill
checking. It'sa big place, you know?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, oh,Iknowit is,!yeah.MR. KORESH:A lot of people here. -
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, I understand thatiI
J
r
92
49
understand that. Did the kids get some dinner?
MR. KORESH:Yeah, yeah, we got some MRE'swe
been--we sell MRE'sand stuff [gap]
MR. KAVANAUGH: You get them MRE's?
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH:What's yourfavorite one?Iate one of those yesterday.
MR. KORESH: Beef stew.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Beef stew? y
MR. KORESH:The onlygood onethere -P
MR. KAVANAUGH:I like that applesauceltheyhave.
MR. KORESH:Oh, yeah, that's good.
MR. KAVANAUGH=That's notbad, yeah. *
MR. KORESH: Maple nut cakes.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:You all guys, you know,
things don'twork outthe waywe want,come onand helpyourself, there'splenty of -,
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh --
MR. KORESH:-- plenty of, plenty of M§Es.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Hey, it'sgoing to worout.We're --you andme aregoing towork itout. Yohandme -- let me tell you something, we're-we -- :
MR. KORESH:We comefrom two different'
worlds, you know what I mean?
I
92
'-
92
I
k
I
SO
MR. KAVANAUGH: We, we come from two
different worlds and we'rethe only two peoplein the
universe that can solve this and you and me can--
MR. KORESH:Well, actually, actuallydon't
disqualify my Father.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, I understand.
MR. KORESH:I've beena goodboy, Idmit,but you can say the samething for yourself. E
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, I think we're~
MR. KORESH:But Ido believein hisskvenseals.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes.
MR. KORESH:I dobelieve inthe truthfhegave me.
MR. KAVANAUGH: I understand.
MR. KORESH:You know,when youconferiwith>
God you can't turnaway from it. »
MR. KAVANAUGH: I understand.
MR. KORESH:You gottodo the truth nomatter what they do toyou.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, Iunderstand. It'sstarting tohurt a little?
MR. KORESH:Well, about an houror two ago
it -~ the numbnesswent awayand the,the biteand thefire and the, and the indiscernible!.
M. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. I got your message to
11
I
92
51
the sheriff that --
MR. KORESH: Harwell?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yes, sir, I did, I got the
message to him --
MR. KORESH: Yeah --
MR. KAVANAUGH: - and --
MR. KORESH: -- and to --
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- Sheriff Thorn.
MR. KORESH:He's agood man,I like that9uY-
MR. KAVANAUGH:He's agood man,and I|gotthe message to him.
MR. KORESH:Man, I love those guys. ,
MR. KAVANAUGH:to sheriff! Give meyour
message back.You can'ttalk to him butgive mejyour
message backthat you love him and you care for him,
okay? IMR. KORESH: Of course, you know --
MR. KAVANAUGH:David, thesheriff's replytoyou is that he loves youand hecares for you. V
MR. KORESH:Thanks. Tell him I don'tjholdno grudges in '88either.
MR. KAVANAUGH:No grudgesfrom himeidher in'88. i
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: He just wants all nhosa
i
i52
people out, and he, he, he doesn't wantanybody hurt.
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible!
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay?
MR. KORESH:Do what now Brad? No, it"s just __
MR. KAVANAUGH:Trying to get -- play a
scripture on the radio to give us some kids.
[gap] I
MR. KAVANAUGH:What's thematter, Dave?MR. KORESH: Oh, I'm just trying to --gthese
latter dayswatching thebaby getsome tittyhere.MR. KAVANAUGH: Has, has the -- has --
MR. KORESH:It's beautiful.Have you}ever
seen a baby taketitty from his mother?
MR. KAVANAUGH:It's beautiful, yeah.
MR. KORESH:Oh, man,you know,Christ{died2,000 years ago for that?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: You know, only Christ is Vr
righteous for glory for a woman,you know? f
MR. KAVANAUGH: I understand, uhhuh.'
MR. KORESH:Christ cameto redeemmen[fromtheir -- you know I'm asongwriter, right? - '
MR. KAVANAUGH:Uh-huh. Y
MR. KORESH:You'll neverget to hear bymusic.
i
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well,
would like to.
MR. KORESH: But --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well,
sing for me.
MR. KORESH: One song
flying -- "I can't reallysing
talk loud, but --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
} 53that's --too b%d,I, I
maybe some day you can
goes, "Three angels
now becauseI c#n't
MR. KORESH:-- it goes, "Three angels flying
inthe mist of [gap] whenthe everlasting[gap] who
really knows indiscernible! who amongst the ba es can
indiscernible! four angels indiscernible!" -- not
going to remember it anyway. But -- I
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey --
MR. KORESH:-- that took too much energy out
of me, my friend. /
MR. KAVANAUGH:Oh, hey, save your energy,
save your energy. I, I, I want you to relax.
MR.KORESH: You everbeen shotbefore?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well,
but I --
I've been shot at a lot
MR.KORESH: Well, man, let me tell ydu what
it'slikewhen you get shot. First of all,it eels
good.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah. I've beenshot{at and
r
x
/
92
92
>
54
it's, it's,it's hard,you know?
MR.KORESH: It --to me it'slike, it's like
it's warm,it's numb,and if you get shot two more
times --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, man --
MR.KORESH: -- and then they'reboth nice
and warm and --
MR.KAVANAUGH:I feel for you, Dave.}
MR.KORESH: --you're kind of stunned and
then you kind of [gap]. I
MR.KAVANAUGH: Hips broken? F
MR. KORESH: Yeah, it went in towards -
close towardsmy bellybutton andwent overand hitmy -- I think the pelvic --
MR.KAVANAUGH: The pelvic --
MR.KORESH: --went around andcame u?my
butt. g
MR.KAVANAUGH: Yeah,that's -i
MR.KORESH: Ricocheted or something.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.-
MR.KORESH: Yeah, I think, I think it!was a
.9mm I guess.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Oh, gee, how big is>
your wounds in the front, can you tell me?
M. KORESH:Well, yeah,in the front htlooks like it's not that big, you know?
I
C
f
92
>
55
MR. KAVANAUGH:Not that big, but --
MR. KORESH: In the back it's[gap]
MR. KAVANAUGH:Are you sitting up or layingdown?
MR. KORESH: I'm halflaying.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Halflayingon a, ona[bed orwhat? j
MR .KORESH: NO .
MR. KAVANAUGH:Just onthe floor? iMR. KORESH: Floor.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Can you get another --ican
you leavethe phoneopen andget anothertowel onyourwound onyour backand I'llwaithere for you? V
MR. KORESH:Oh,well,I, I can, you know,I'm notgoing nowhere [gap] I don't know--
MR. KAVANAUGH:You're abrave man,I m goingr
to tellyou something -
MR.KORESH: Just -- well, look, I've gotmy
Father, he'swatching this. V
MR. KAVANAUGH:You're abrave man,I'm going
to tellyou. fMR. KORESH:I'm not-- well,this time it's
alittle bit worse if I indiscernible!. .r
MR. KAVANAUGH:David, is,is Waynewiéh you?MR. xonzsm 1think Wayne's -- ;
MR. KAVANAUGH:Is Steve, is Steve okay? You
I
I
92.
V
92
r
92.
i>
know, me and Steve talked for about 45 minutes.
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Is he okay?
MR. KORESH: He's okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. 1 know weworkei out
getting that all [gap].
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! you know,&and
indiscernible! ought to listen.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Tape 2!
MR. KAVANAUGH
STEVE: Hello
MR. KAVANAUGH
STEVE: Yes.
MR. KAVANAUGH
bleeding a lot?
STEVE: Well,
Well, you got a bunch of --
How is your side doing?
Jim. i
Steve?
>
How is hedoing? Is, is he
he's, he'shanging intherebut, you know, he's,he's hurt. V
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes indiscernible!
right. Look, what, what we talked about and so we're9
all square --
STEVE: Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH
come out --
STEVE: Right
MR. KAVANAUGH
-- is the, the girls will
-- do, do you have a
flashlight you could give them.
STEVE: Do we have a flashlight we could give
the girls? We only have big ones I guess.
MR.KAVANAUGH: Anything they could -- just
so they could see. I don'twant them to get lost.
STEVE: Right.
MR.KAVANAUGH:And, andthey comedown thedriveway --
STEVE: Right.
MR.KAVANAUGH: -- and then we'llhaveia car
slowly pull right behind your guard shack. I
STEVE: All right. ,
MR. KAVANAUGH:Now, our guys want to reel
like they'renot going to get shot, you know?
STEVE: Well, you know --
MR.KAVANAUGH:Well, I, I take you word,
hey - ,
STEVE: Right.
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- I trust you.
STEVE: Right. 1
MR.KAVANAUGH:But, youknow, I mean bust
like, you know, theguys outthere--doesn'twint toget -- V
STEVE: Exactly, I understand.
MR.KAVANAUGH: Okay, andthen the kids will
get in, okay?
0 Q .ss
STEVE: Right.
MR. KAVANAUGH:And then we'll takethem
back.
STEVE: okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH:And 1'11get the kids hackf
over here --=
STEVE: And give us acall.
MR. KAVANAUGH: And 1'11let you talk to
them. }
STEVE: Thankyou. y
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay? éSTEVE: Okay. ,
MR. KAVANAUGH:Now, that's,that's whgt
we're goingto do. Now, whatI'm -and we'regLingto get twokids? - g
STEVE: Yes, two of them.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Two kids.
STEVE: Angelicaand CrystalSenobe.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Angelica andCrystal Senobe.STEVE: Sixand three. ;
>
MR. KAVANAUGH:Six andthree, okay.feedbless you. K
STEVE: Okay. ?
MR. KAVANAUGH=Just hangon with me hecause
we'regoing to get this done here in the next few
minutes, butwe, we,we've gotto get the -yol know,
I
O O
[ 59
I don'twant any mistakes andI don'twant the v
commanders on the ground to do anything, that we agree,
you know?
STEVE: Right, okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH: And how are the little}girls?
Are they okay?
STEVE: They're okay, they seem to be., I'm
looking at them right now andthey're just- they're,they're alittle puzzled of course. L
MR. KAVANAUGH: would ithelp if 1 talked to
the older one and tell her this is Jim and she'll be
all right and meet the man and he'll come to me?* Do
you want to do that?
STEVE: Okay.Just a minute. Davidwants totalk to you first.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay.
STEVE: He wanted to know if you'd
indiscernible!.
MR. KORESH: All right. Okay. Listem to me.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay.
MR. KORESH:Okay. We'regoing to send Sita
out.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Sita?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, she's their mother;
M.KAVANAUGH: Their mother, okay.
MR. KORESH: She wants to come back.
i
Q I
.0MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. _
MR. KORESH: So and she'll bethe one taking
each child out, okay?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah. Can she take them out
one time just so we can, you know, do it --
MR. KORESH: Yeah, well -
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:- she'sgoing to take twoat a
time. I
_ M. KAVANAUGH: Twoat atime, okay,yeah,that's fine.
M. KORESH:And like I say, she's unarmed.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Oh, therewill beno pioblem.MR. KORESH: And you let her come back
otherwise you're going to make us real mad.
MR. KAVANAUGH:No, no, she'll comebatk.
MR. KORESH: Okay?
MR. KAVANAUGH:She canwalk thetwo dhildrento the driveway.
MR. KORESH:Yeah, that way, you knowi they,
they, they-- youknow, makesure -can evengait themthere.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay.
MR. KORESH:Okay? I MR. KAVANAUGH:And then 1'11 havethe
children broughtto meand I'lllet you talk toithemso
i J
1
you know
brought o
phone and
you two m
hold noth
we'll wor
here that
going to
mean, the
I61
they're safe. _
MR. KORESH: Okay. You're going to havé them
ut to you, right?
MR. KAVANAUGH: To me, okay?
MR.KORESH: Okay, and then they call on the
then youall play thatthing and we'llsend
ore out. ~
MR.KAVANAUGH: You've got a deal.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH:All right. Now -- p
MR.KORESH: Hey man,like I said, I don't
ing against you or the ATF guys.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey, I love you, buddy, I --
MR. KORESH:They maynot understand mez but
k it all out a little bit later, okay?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey, there's a lot of people
love you and I -- V
MR.KORESH: Oh, I -
MR. KAVANAUGH:-- I want youto knowphat.
MR. KORESH:-- I wish theyknew mytruth.
MR.KAVANAUGH=I wantyou toknow thaéwe'redo itand thisis goingto beunbelieva%le, Ipeople aregoing toknow that--iMR. KORESH: Oh, we'renot murderers. I
MR. KAVANAUGH:Hey, I knowthat.i
MR. KORESH:Remember thatwe dideverything
1
K
i, 62
inour power to stop - it's justlike in1988, ydu
know, the Sheriff's Departmenttold us there was
dangerous people out here, you know. Anyway, we did
kind of back thenlike what you all guys weredoing
now, you know, youall were trying to makea diversion.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR.KORESH: But oh,I wish you all had jhac-- I wish Robert -I mean I wish - what's hisname?
Robert Gonzalez had been more honest. I asked him
several times to go ahead and confess, you know?
he chosenot to. Okay. k MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. I'm,I'm, I'msuppo%ed
to get the word here in just a -- l
MR. KORESH:Well, they're-- she'sfixing92to!
come out now, all right? -
MR.KAVANAUGH: All right now, wait,hold it
up just because I want to make sure the car comes l
first IMR.KORESH: Okay.
MR.KAVANAUGH: -- because I don'twant heri
to --you know, I want her to see it thatshe knows
what --you know, andhe's notsurprised or anything.E1
MR.KORESH: Okay. 1
MR.KAVANAUGH: And, and the car willcome, 1
just one car. 1
MR.KORESH: All right.
0 0 3MR. KAVANAUGH:So just give us a minute.
63
MR. KORESH:Remember, she'sgoing to have a
flashlight so, you know ~-
MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, that -- okay, well see
her but I, I don't wanther - I, I'd,I'd likeHer to
look out where shefeels safe and sees the car.
MR. KORESH: Okay. All right.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Okay. They're
getting, they're the car.
Groaning sounds!
MR. KAVANAUGH:Have you -is your
hurting?
MR. KORESH: Oh, man.
>
Y
sid%L
I»
MR. KAVANAUGH:Do yougot anymorphine out92
there, David?
iMR. KORESH:No, wedon't, wedon'tdings.MR. KAVANAUGH:Oh -- well, Iwas just
thinking of painkiller.
MR. KORESH:We just, we just have alcoh
andIdon'tdrink alcohol, you know,I'll havean
occasional beer indiscernible!.
MR. KAVANAUGH:If we'regoing to do it -
well, theyagree, let'sdo itindiscernible! I& jsttrying to -- hey, tell them you'll doit and I'lltell
I
them tosend thecar. Comeon, we'regoing tolose it.Okay. All right. The car --
a
MR. KORESH: Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH: iscoming, okay?
MR. KORESH: Uh~huh.
MR. KAVANAUGH: It, it, it is it's cdmin
from aboutsix miles. We'renotsending -- we're92not
letting those guysthat are onthe roadthere, okay-MR. KORESH: Okay.'
MR. KAVANAUGH:-- thatwere involvedinxthdeal today, we're, we'resending other people.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
F6.92
9
e
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay? SoIwantyouto Anethat. Soinother -- k
MR. KORESH:Bring, bring, bring a woman,}5 too, if you can,you knowhow they'rebetter withkid
little kids. »
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. 1, I -- E
MR. KORESH:If, if you, ifyou can. 1MR. KAVANAUGH=If we can, we'llbring a
womanif we can,butwe're sending other agents,noté
the ones that were there. They'regoing to come up,
they're goingto drive upto the guardshackwith theI
lights on--
MR. KORESH: Okay.
5,
ir
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- and Sita will walkout,
Senobe and Angelica.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, and we'llwatch withthe
i
car lights come on --
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: --
inside, and then we'll --
know and then you give us
there.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
them, okay?
> 1
s@es
Yeah, oh, yeah, they'll --
and I'mtalking about uhe
when Sita comes back we'll
acall back whenthey get»
Yeah, and you can talk to
MR. KORESH: All right.
MR. KAVANAUGH:All right, and, andhey92--and the mother has to go back. I
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Tell them no
The mother has to go ba
mistakes. Onlythe childrenare coming.MR. KORESH:Now, letme tellyou someth%n
too. If you
MR. KAVANAUGH:
do us wrong on this deal -i
Yeah.
MR. KORESH:I'll comeout after you. E
MR. KAVANAUGH:
mistakes. Okay. We'll -
MR. KORESH: Is the
MR. KAVANAUGH:
minutes because we don'twant
the roadblock, so we'regoing
Well, I know, David. No ,I
car coming down now? 3
No, it'sgoing to be afew
to sendthose guysfr%mto send other people.
Well, I'msending them right from here with me --
MR. KORESH: Okay.
X
92MR. KAVANAUGH:~- becauseI want thé
children to come back to me.
MR. KORESH: All right.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay, because that --
MR. KORESH:You'reagood man, I apprecdate
that.
MR. KAVANAUGH:All right. I don'twanti
nobody that's,you know,out thereor somethingthatk
was - XMR. KORESH:Hey, you go all around andtell
them that a car'scoming -- k> v
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. 1
MR. KORESH: --that ~- and that we're i 92 . i
sending our kids out two, twoby-two every time they
play that thing on the, on the radio. iK
MR. KAVANAUGH:Every time we play they'll
send them out two-by-two.
92
MR. KORESH: Yeah. K
MR. KAVANAUGH:You, you got it, you got
We will do it, we will do it.
MR. KORESH:Local radio station in Dallas
well,you know, it'll,it'll getaround. 14
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, it'll get -- it's
already got around, it'salready got around. Is
there --
MR. KORESH: Go give, go give daddy a hug. M
I
66
92 6Okay? 5
MR. KAVANAUGH: David, do you want me to talk
to their mom here for a minute so she can feel like she
trusts me, I will?
MR. KORESH:Well, youknow, like,likekyousay, she trusts me. ;
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. That'sgood.>
MR. KORESH:Justmakesure shecomes baTMR. KAVANAUGH:Here --okay. Okay.Okay.MR. KORESH:Hey, andyou needto bringQ--
some car seats if you can. ' 1
MR. KAVANAUGH:Some carseats? Okay.We'llmake sure we seat-belt them in. 1
MR. KORESH:Because some,some ofthem aieindiscernible!K
MR. KAVANAUGH:You've gotto bring them i
here. Our agreement is- just put themon the phone
Okay. Okay. I was just telling the commanderthat you
had tobring themhere - 92
MR. KORESH:Okay. 1:MR. KAVANAUGH:-- to me and,and sowe can
put themon thephone toyou. E
MR. KORESH:All right.MR. KAVANAUGH;What -- tell me what they
look like. }
MR. KORESH: Well, these two are little
2
isOriental girls. 1
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. I'llbet they're
beautiful.
MR. KORESH:They're reallycute. Theyfregood little girls. '
MR.KAVANAUGH= Oriental girls, okay.
MR. KORESH:Yeah.Well,I'mglad youneletting them come out. I think that's great.
MR. KORESH:Well, likeI said,you know?Iindiscernible!. E
MR. KAVANAUGH:I know what's inyour heart
now, Iknow what'sinyourheart. I-92MR. KORESH:Hey,allI wanted wasto sho%
the sealsthat indiscernible!. I
Mm. KAVANAUGH:Hey, David I'mtellingyou,
it's beenon theradio, your, your, yourmessage has
gotten out more than ever,you know. I
MR. KORESH:Indiscernible! pull my leg oht,
pull my leg out. Oh, it'scramped. Groaningsounds!
MR.KAVANAUGH: Oh man, are you okay? *
MR. KORESH:Groaning sounds!oh, doyou Q 1know whatpain is. 92 K
MR. KAVANAUGH:Oh man, I feel for you,
David.
MR. KORESH: Man --
MR. KAVANAUGH:You soundgood though. I
I
I
mean, canyou holdon forme? Yousound better.92Iknow --
MR. KORESH: It's sad, you know. It's -- I,
I got to stay alive at least long enough to ~
MR. KAVANAUGH:To getthese kidsout, come
on. Wegot to. lSTEVE: Get these kids out, yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH:You're agood man,God bhess92
you. 92
Groaning sounds.!
MR. KAVANAUGH:You gotto hang with me.§
What you got to do is you got to tell Steve too he
got to hang with it.
STEVE: Lift the leg, lift the leg, please,lift the leg -- back groaningsounds!. i
MR. KAVANAUGH: He said he's--that he'sE
trying to stay alive long enough to get the kids oud
and he'sgoing to send two out every time we run the
message. But no glitches, man. We got to stay with
this.No glitches. Okay.
STEVE: Besure andhave themplay that thingright after the two kids, okay-- 3
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay.
MR. KORESH: -- and they call back here.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay.Get, get the radio 1
station on the line,okay, and tell them that we're
i$
going to -want them to play the message again once we
get two children. Don't play it until we get the
children and then --but I want them to be on an open
line with somebody next door and I-- when we havelthe
children I'll tell David and then Iwant it played
okay? That'sour agreementand Idon'twant any i>
glitches. I'm sticking up for you, buddy.i
MR. KORESH: Yeah. I
MR. KAVANAUGH: I got a lot of people around
I118.
92
MR. KORESH:They're angrytoo, aren'tthey?MR. KAVANAUGH:No, they'renot. Theyre92--
I'll tellyou, they're just - K
MR. KORESH:Well, theyhave tobe, youaillost some of your buddies, man.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, they're just kind of
sad. E
MR. KORESH: Yeah, but you know -- E
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hold on.
MR. KORESH: -- I'll do what I can for them
whenIget back home, all right? BecauseIdon't,I
don't contendthese guysbecause mostof themthey dida good job, you know what I mean? E
MR. KAVANAUGI-I:Yeah.Man ~-
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Thechildren x §are there indiscernible!. E
92
A
1
MR. KAVANAUGH=No, you're,you're goig to
lose this if you don't doit. I can't keep-- you've
71
got todo this. I can't keepthis going if you don't
do it. The car'sgot to go. You tell them the car
goes out,the motherwalks thetwo kidsout, thetwokids getin thecar, theagent leaves,they bringthechildren here, I put them on the phone with David, then
we playthe message.That's ouragreement andwe gotto do itnow let's go. 1
KMR. KORESH: They'renot-- they're not
scared are they?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, they just don'twant to
get shot, I mean, you know? .
MR. KORESH:I understand. 5E
MR. KAVANAUGH:Can -~we canhave two 1
agents, right? ,F
MR. KORESH: Yeah. »
MR. KAVANAUGH:Two agents in the front,
that's it,and that --no more, okay? Okay? I92
MR. KORESH:That'sit.E
MR. KAVANAUGH:That's it,that's okay,we'rcoming. 1
MR. KORESH:And thenbesides, youknow, Ethere will be awomanthere too, see whatI'm saying?
MR. KAVANAUGH=Yeah. It-- okay.Commanderpassed on it'saminivan, okay, alittle van.
. 2
>i72
MR.KORESH: Okay.
MR.KAVANAUGH: It's allwindows in it, youcan see it.
MR.KORESH: Okay.
MR.KAVANAUGH:I mean, there's notrichs.
MR. KORESH:Well, likeI say,we gotnightvision on you guys.
MR.KAVANAUGH:Yeah, Iknow yougot nightvision. Butthere'll betwo agents,I mean,and, akdyou'll beable tosee, they'llpull right uptotheiguard shack.Will, will the motherhavealight? E
MR. KORESH:Yeah, she'llhaveaflashligit,you'll seeitcoming. i
MR.KAVANAUGH:Okay. Oh, she's gota i
flashlight? §MR.KORESH: Yeah, andI'll hold- I'llhive
her holditdown to the ground soshe doesn'tflare itin your eyes. i
MR.KAVANAUGH:Okay.Tell, tell Steveif hesees the car -- i
9292
MR. KORESH:Yeah.E
MR.KAVANAUGH:-- if he seesthe car send 92»them out. 392 MR. KORESH:Okay.i
MR.KAVANAUGH:Okay.That's -- and that'sKwhat -I wantto waituntil the cargets there. i
> w92
73MR. KORESH: All right. Be sure -- K
MR. KAVANAUGH: Huh? H
MR. KORESH: I'm tellingsome people. Be
sure ~ oh, I say, be sure tell all the guys to hold
fire, that I'm sendingsome of the children out an
there's goingto be a car come inthe front and nokto,
not tofire onit, all right? Okay?Yeah, becausethey'll begoing out,okay? Go,go thereand tell92them, okay?
x
MR. KAVANAUGH:Tell everybody. That's gbod.
David. That was good. Steve'sa good man.
MR. KORESH: Well, he, he loves the truth.
They're readingit again. x MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. EMR. KORESH: Turn it down.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Now -- myagreement,
I'm playingit. That's it isn'tit, David? I
MR. KQRESH:That's it. ,
MR. KAVANAUGH:All right, buddy, I, I kept,K
myword.
MR. KORESH: And I'mkeeping mine.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. You'rea good man. 1
The radiois playingit again.They're already%indiscernible!.
MR. KORESH:Take care Indiscernible! 1
MR. KAVANAUGH: David?
74
MR. KORESH: Huh?
MR. KAVANAUGH: We played it. I mean,
we're I'm trying to show you my good faith.
MR. KORESH: Well, I - like I said, you
know, these children are not in this, you know?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, I know it, buddy, I know
it, I know it, you know.
Groaning sounds! 1I
MR. KAVANAUGH: I can tell you're hurtingi
man, I,I feel bad. I,I wish I could comfort you
somehow. Ii92
MR. KORESH:Well, just keep mea part ofkit,
be my comfort.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey, that's it. We know -+
at least we --
MR. KORESH:Is the car here now-not >
coming in the gate.
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, no. They're notcoming
in the gate, they just pull up. Oh, okay, yeah. Let{s
get thefirst indiscernible!David, is,isthe motherokay? »A
IMR. KORESH: Yeah, she's, she's fine.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. She's not scared is
she? E
MR. KORESH: N0.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Good.
i i I 75
MR. KORESH:No, she knows the book. 92
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, yeah. She believes in
you.
MR. KORESH: She believes in God'sword.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:Nobody canbelieve on me emcept
they believe God's word. E>
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.X
MR. KORESH:It's impossible.KMR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. gMR. KORESH: That's whyno one can just lbok
at me and talk to me and think of me being anything.
That's meallowed to be like everybody else, got to
establish His equity. XMR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah. L
MR. KORESH: But the truthis the truth.l 92
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, I, I believe that, I
believe that. I think we should be getting close here.
MR. KORESH: Getting ready? Go -- goingL92
down. You got a flashlight now? »
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, man, you're taking--K
you're takingtoo much time. Hey, send that goddamn
car --get somebody up there, I'mgoing to lose it i
indiscernible! well, this is the only guythat cut thedeal. Can -- well,ask them whileI'm onthe phone %
indiscernible! can they come over here, and we can al
f 92
¢
§-
O 9 ,Ki vs
together work them here. I'll keephim on. And tell
Wayne he'scoming here. We'll workon his phone.
MR. KORESH: Can you move my leg again,
please? Let'sset it down. No, that one, the other
one. Yeah.
92MR. KAVANAUGH:That will be perfect becausethey can -- *
MR. KORESH: Pick it up.
MR. KAVANAUGH:--switch on andoff with me _ 92
and them.
v
MR. KORESH:Pick it up straight. Move the
chair. Bend it, bend it, bend it. I
MR. KAVANAUGH:David's hurtinhis leg realbad. It'scramping. §
MR. KORESH: No, it's just --okay. Back it
upa littlemore, please. K
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, I'vebeen on since 9:30
too but I mean, I mean I called them whenthey were
shooting so I mean - .
MR. KORESH: Little bit more, please. Ba
it upalittle bit more. EMR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible! as far as
indiscernible! we'dlike them to comehere, that'sour
request soif youcan doit I'dappreciate- I mean,we got -- we'llkeep the line open. He can keep it
open until he gets here. Leave one guywith itopen,
v
f 92
'~
g.
come over
here.
ready to come out as soon as we get the car there.
car needs
MR. KORESH: What now?
77
MR. KAVANAUGH:No, I was talking with a guy
MR. KORESH: Oh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right.
MR. KORESH: Turn it up. !
MR. KAVANAUGH:Right. There's-- they
to ge there, two agents and indiscernibl
MR. KORESH: Could you pull my leg up some
more? Get the cat out. Push it up.
MR. KAVANAUGH: I got to get them to move
faster. They'retoo slow. I mean, the guy'swantin
to deal.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH: He don'tknow. Yeah,but
doesn't dois any good to deal with the guy who's no
the boss, you know? I mean -- well, that's true.
Let's havethem go right up. [gap] Yeah, she will,
EDIE .
Child crying!
MR. KAVANAUGH: David?
MR. KORESH: Sir?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Is that a baby crying?
Indiscernible!
>
ii
i
i92
Q
92 N
E
3IV
Q
_
IOE
% 78
What's thematter? SMR. KORESH:Yeah, that'smy little girl.
MR. KAVANAUGH: What's her name?
MR. KORESH: Bobbie.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Bobbie. How old?
MR. KORESH:Bobbie indiscernible!she?almost a year.
MR. KAVANAUGH:A year, bless her heart. lshe> I
got enough toeat in there? 1
MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah,plenty of food.
indiscernible!. 1
MR. KAVANAUGH:I have two kids, I have twp
kids myself. I have alittle girl and a little boy.;
MR. KORESH=Yeah.She's getting some titty
right now. Goodwoman. :
MR. KAVANAUGH: Is she? What's her mom's
name?
MR. KORESH: Rachel.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Rachel. 1
MR. KORESH: Whois that, Steve? No, that
our next doorneighbors are talking.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Huh?E
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible! get the first
one.92[gap]
.. xMR. KORESH: What did Mark say?
92
2 7 MR. KAVANAUGH:What happened, Dave?
3 MR. KORESH: He'sprobably sad isn't he?
47 MR. KAVANAUGH: Who, who, who is -- whO is
5Mark?
6 AMR. KORESH: Our--
7 MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh,your neighbor? »
8 MR. KORESH: Ournext doorneighbor, yeam,R9 Mark, he'sagood guy. 92 »
10 KAVANAUGH: Is he okay? 1MR.
9211 MR. KORESH: Yeah, he just was on the
12 interview. §13 MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh,okay. 114 guy. He gaveusa
fair chance, didn't he? i
MR. KORESH: I like that
15
5 16 MR. KAVANAUGH:All right. When theypick17 the kids have them dro hp -- ave them put the kids i
18 different vehicle.
19 MR. KORESH: Whendo you think they'llget 92 E
20 here?
'|E
21 MR. KAVANAUGH: -~
just afew minutes. Keep that same vehicle
23 there but get two more kids in af ew minutes. Don't
24 make him indiscernible!. Okay. It'll be just afew
25 minutes. Yeah. We're-- yeah, we, we want to, you.know, try to get it -- we're tryingto do it slowly.Q
~
and bringthem to me. 3i
22 It'll be
9 92
79
up
= .
i>»
92
K
K 80iI I don'twant to get anyof yourpeople exciteou.Q, y
know whatI mean?I,I, I'm tryingto keepmy word,you know?
MR. KORESH:You all besure and tellieveryone not to fire on the car.92
MR. KAVANAUGH:No, they won't.
MR. KORESH:Indiscernible! all right.
MR. KAVANAUGH:We wanteverybody tobesafe.MR. KORESH:As long as wecan makeit that
i92 way. L
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, wecan,I knowwe can.MR. KORESH:I'll betyou talkedto someneal
psychos in the past haven't you?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Youknow,people -- we'reAlldifferent. I'lltell you, we, we,we're allso
different andwe lookat thingsso differentand youk know, whenyou'rea policeman--I used tobea deputysheriff and,you know,ride ina uniformcar and,you,know,I gota -- I usedto helpa lot of folks.I xdelivereda babyonceandI'lltell youit wasreal Eexciting, David,I'll tellyou it really was,you know?
MR. KORESH:Yeah, I'mfixing, I'mfixing tohave acouple more here. -
MR. KAVANAUGH:Oh, are you?
MR. KORESH:Yeah. I have two womenpregnant.
92 92 X
I C f i
E B1
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, that'sgreat.
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: I'm gladwe are agreeing thati
we love kids and I think that's, that'stremendbus.
MR. KORESH:You know,kid -- childrek arethe most important thing to me in my whole life.
MR. KAVANAUGH: I know, I believe you, I
believe you, because -- >
MR. KORESH: Because you can do so much with
them if you know the truth.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Um~hum. A
MR. KORESH: Just like my attorney that
helped us in the '88 case-- *
MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- Gary Coker.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Coker? Yeah.
MR. KORESH: We had this little pizza party
afterwards andhe says-- §
MR. KAVANAUGH: Pizza party?
MR. KORESH:Yeah indiscernible!he,|hesays, Dave, how do you -~ how do your children -- how
come they're so well mannered?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH= And I kept trying to tell him
the seals, but he said no, I don'twant to know
religion. He says, I just want to know how do you get
»
O 9 ,xF82
your children so well mannered.
MR . KAVANAUGI-I:Um hum .
MR. KORESH:I said, well, becausethey knowthe truth. F
MR. KAVANAUGH:Um-hum. E
MR. KORESH: Well, anyway, he said, I can't|ir ask you nothing about Bible study.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. David, how did you,
how did you -- you, you just know so much from the
Bible, is that from the sevenseals whenyou got that?
Is that how you learned?
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH:That's unbelievable,
amazing. Ican't -I've never- 92
MR. KORESH=Well, you don't knownothing
yet. b
MR. KAVANAUGH:I've neverspoken tono onewho knows -
MR. KOREsH= Well, there's-- like it s a
simple man'sdoctrine, isn't it?
»MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay.
MR. KORESH:Just pretendyou'reasimple-minded man-- i
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. I
MR. KORESH:-- andyou've readMatthsw,Mark, Luke, John, right?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Right, um-hum. A
MR. KORESH:You readActs, Romans,
Corinthians andPaul saysa lot of thingsthaqs hardto understand, doesn't he?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yes, uhhuh.
MR. KORESH:Okay. Now,when you,whenyouget tothe lastbook ofthe NewTestament aftertheBook ofJude, there'sarevelationJesus Chrisi'sGodgave tohim toshow tohis servantsand Johnwas the
servant. MR. KAVANAUGH:Right. .
MR. KORESH:And Johnwrote downthat
revelation andsent it to theseven churchesinAsiaand eachchurch wasgiven specificinformation abouttheir necessity and need.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Right.
MR. KORESH:ButinChapter 4, theme sagetoLaodicea,inChapter4the Angel says,come uphere nowJohn andI'll showyou thatwhich mustbe hereafter.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Umhum. V
MR. KORESH:And Johnwitnessed theLast
Judgment inregards tothe caseof this whole world.MR. KAVANAUGH:Um-hum. i
iMR. KORESH:And Johnsaw thatall the Heavenwas calledtogether. It'sa seriousthing, youknow.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.
i
1
MR. KORESH:There aresome heavyindictmentsagainst you boys - I
MR. KAVANAUGH: Umhum, I understandl
MR. KORESH: -- and against the natidns, you
know? F
MR. KAVANAUGH: I understand, yeah. '
MR. KORESH: And that'swhy I'mher I'm
like your attorney.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right, uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: See, I'ma mediator.
MR. KAVANAUGH:, Yeah.
MR. KORESH: So what happened was th
question was asked in God's judgmentwho only
worthy. Let me tell you about my world, okay? '
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay, yeah. l
MR. KORESH:You see,when youread te storyof Genesis --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -there was already a wokld
here wasn't there?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, uh-huh. V
MR. KORESH:It wasvoid anddarkness tntheface of the deep and the Spirit of God was on the face
of thewaters andGod said,"Let therebe 1ight,Lright?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Um-hum. 5
k 85MR. KORESH;Well, youknow whythkre wasa
world here before?
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, I don't.
MR. KORESH: Well, you know why God said to
Adam and Eve, "Replenish and remultiply the Earth"?
That meansput back something don'tit? §
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, I understand.
MR. KORESH: Well, tell me about my Father -
MR.KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- let me tell you abont me.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. l>
MR. KORESH:After Adamand Evesinhed, they
took of the forbidden fruit, right?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right, umhum. M
MR. KORESH:There's onlyone wayto teachmen thelesson thatGod learneda long time ago. Godis not what you think he is --
MR. KAVANAUGH:Right, um-hum. I
MR. KORESH: - you know? God says, "Behold,
man has become as one of us - "
MR. KAVANAUGH: Umhum. v >
MR. KORESH:-- "only good and evill"
MR. KAVANAUGH:Right. iMR. KORESH:Now, you know Godhas n t always
been holy. .
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right.
0 9 k ~86
MR. KORESH:All you got to do to learn thelesson issearch thescriptures andfind foreverychild that'sborn into this world ~-
MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:- it has to learngood bnd
evil. Thosewho realizethat thereare starsabove theHeaven andthere's gotto beworldspastOrion }-
MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:-- they realize this doesn't
work. RMR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum. i
MR. KORESH:You know,when youbreak thecommandments ofGod allyou're doingis you'relbsingthe lack of love --
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay.
MR. KORESH:-- youknow? SoGod haddoseparate frommen andgive themachoiceto dotmeirownthing and then whenmen havefound thattheir own
ways arenot workingandtheirown ways havebrought
sorry andsin and suffering uponthem, thewages ofsinis death, then Godsends a message intothe worldand
says,Children -- talkingto me,you know?And itsays like this,Whosits on the throne-- " i
MR. KAVANAUGH:All right. i
MR. KORESH:- who do yougive the book to?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Right.
92
Q C .
87
MR. KORESH:And sothe onewho lovesyoumore thanyou couldever realizeand it comes in
the
flesh andthat's wherewe getour problem.Aftertheorder ofindiscernible! Godin theflesh. Anytimeyoucome looking like mortal man --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Umhum.
MR. KORESH:-- mendon't respectmen,
don't, theydon't loveoneanother. You know,
brother iswrong anderring youwith yourspiri
Paul says,restores indiscernible!consider youleast you also be tempted.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right.
MR. KORESH:Christ says, Christ says!
if
tu
they
a
al,
rself
II
this theyshall knowthat you'remy disciplesand thatyou loveone another."You know,we livetogeth
x
EI. I
mean, inthe beginning,you know,getting thismanypeople fromall over the worldliving together --
MR. KAVANAUGH:Right. pI
MR. KORESH:-- you know, they have tolove after awhile.
IMR. KAVANAUGH:I understand, yeah.
MR. KORESH=So, youknow, thething th
binds ustogether is that our Father in Heaven ha
given usknowledge andan understandingand we,wrealize that in our own humanitywe fell far shor
learn
92
at
s
t of
the things that weknow weshould andshouldn't dD, YOU.
92
<-
k- - i 88
I,know?
»92 MR. KAVANAUGH: Right, um-hum.
MR. KORESH:But still in this great country
God hasblessedthisnation because it'ssaid Qtsa
nation that'sconcerned aboutthe religious beliefs and
convictions of people.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Umhum.
MR. KORESH:Now, itsays itbelievesttheBible. F
MR. KAVANAUGH:Right. I
MR.KORESH: Now, wehave found in scipture,
I;I found in Israel on Mount indiscernible!.
MR.KAVANAUGH: Right.
MR. KORESH: But the people that hav
studied, we found in scripture, that God require
obedience [gap] because we'reall to keep the l the name of love --
>
MR.KAVANAUGH: Umhum. f
MR.KORESH:-- butto thespirit ofHiswill. So then thewill of God isrevealed inseden
92
seals and we've doneso.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right.
MR. KORESH:And we'vebeen -we're in&tight situation now, myfriend. Z
MR. KAVANAUGH: we are, we are.
MR. KORESH: But, you know -- '
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
it right here
MR.
outside?
MR.
MR.
don't you?
MR.
were about --
MR.
right?
in Psalm 89 realquick.
iE
89I
MR. KAVANAUGH:But becauseyou're aigoodman
you're -well, maybe more than man, but --
MR. KORESH:There's nonegood, but there's
one good in Heaven, your Father --
MR. KAVANAUGH:I understand. .I
MR. KORESH:- you know, and far as I'm
_concerned I'm just a dixie cup. In the [gap] Psalm89-- you got aBible there with you? E
r
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. IKORESH: Let'stake a look at thefstory
I»
KAVANAUGH: Okay. 1
KORESH: Thepromise to ancient David92
indiscernible!. ;KAVANAUGH: Psalm89? Let'ssee, Igot
KORESH: They'recoming? Thelight's on
Il
KAVANAUGH: Yeah,they're coming.92Theysaid they were -- ' i
i
KORESH: You'vegot a radio onwithithem
KAVANAUGH: Yeah,they, they said t ey
threequarters ofa mile. 92
KORESH: Okay.They're atthe gate now,
i
90
MR. KAVANAUGH:Do they see them thee?>
MR. KORESH: Are they at the gate now?
Female voice in background!
MR. KORESH: okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Send them out so they
can *- »I
MR. KORESH: Send them out and give them a
kiss and tellthem to remember --
MR. KAVANAUGH:They're sendingthem oLt.92
MR. KORESH:-- whatthey learned.okay-dokey. Okay.Byebye. Give me a kiss. Come on.
Going to be all right, okay.Remember what you .
learned, okay?Okay.I love you.Bye-bye.Teqlthemgood-bye. Hey, go tellthem who Davidreallyis,kokay?Yeah, okay, listen. Y
MR. KAVANAUGH: Umhum. t
MR. KORESH: We want you to send them
their grandparents, okay?
MR. KAVANAUGH= Send themto their
grandparents?
MR. KORESH: Right.92
MR. KAVANAUGH: okay. iI
MR. KORESH: Theirgrandparents are likeI
say knownothing aboutthis message,they're good,people -- H
>
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay.
2
r
92
C
Q0
1"..MR. KORESH:- the Senobe's andthey'rein
Hawaii. i
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. How cculd I rdach
them?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, Scott. I know th but
they'll knowit. Your, your dad treated me good,
Scott, andthat's allthat makesany differenceyHedidn't knowwhat I thought but he treated me E
respectful, remember that, you know? He'lldo it.
They're goingto call -- they'regoing to-- the kids
are going to talkto you afterwards. And you got their
address andphone numbers?Okay. TakethisnumherI
down.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay, go ahead.
MR. KORESH: The phone number is808! --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay.
MR. KORESH: -- 689 --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. 1
MR. KORESH: 4457.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Where isthat at?
MR. KORESH: 808!, right, 808! --
MR. KAVANAUGH: 689 --
MR. KORESH: - 689-4457.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Got it, and, and what's3their
name? Doyou know? KM. KORESH:What's, what's,what's theJr
&
name? Kenand Mollie Senobe.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Ken andMollie --
;92
MR. KORESH:And CerilaVera, CerilaVeraindiscernible!.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Cerila. Wheredo theylive,David?
MR
MR
MR
MR.
MR
MR
MR
MR
MR
MR
MR
Apartment L-
MR.
line, David.
MR
MR
MR
MR
MR
MR
KORESH: Theylive in Hawaii.KAVANAUGH: Hawaii?
KORESH: Yeah.It's 91674--KAVANAUGH: Okay.'
KORESH: --K-I-L-A-L-H-A Street
KAVANAUGH: K-I-L-L-A-H-AStreetKORESH: Yeah.
KAVANAUGH= Okay.
KORESH: 1333 --
KAVANAUGH: 133 --
KORESH: --Hala, H-A-L-ADrive,E-W-A, B-E-A-C-H,Hawaii.
KAVANAUGH: Allright. Give meI got up to Apartment L-3.
KORESH: ApartmentL-3 --
KAVANAUGH: Okay.
KORESH: -- E-W-A --
KAVANAUGH: E-W-A.
KORESH: -yeah, B-E-A-C-H.
KAVANAUGH: BA-C-H,Hawaii.
. .
? 92
r I
I92
I
II
that!last
l92
92I
okay?
1
9.
IMR. KORESH: Hawaii.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay.
MR. KORESH: Okay?
MR. KAVANAUGH:We'll getin touch wi7
MR. KORESH:Indiscernible! ;MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: Okay?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. Hold on, let m
one of my guys, guys here.
MR. KORESH: Well, we need to send th
I don'twant to get them spooked out.
MR. KAVANAUGH:No, I understand. We
get in touch with them, okay?This is the gran
of these children that are comingout, okay?
if we can get in touch with them and Davidwant
make sure, you know, they get together --
MR. KORESH= Indiscernible!
MR. KAVANAUGH:-- so we're goingto,
going to do that.
MR. KORESH: Is there anymore indisce
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, that'sgood.
indiscernible! hey, are you hurting, David?
like --
MR. KORESH: You know, after a while
MR. KAVANAUGH=Can you move at all,
93
th them,
% briefiI
em out.
I3gotto
dparents
Add see
SCO
92I
i
he're
rnible!.
';
g.if -- ,
MR. KORESH: No, I, I just barely canimove my
right leg and then, you know [gap] we'regoing to send
every time they play this - after they get the kids
they're goingto play it again -
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right.
MR. KORESH: -and then we'regoing '
to --they'regoing to come back and we'regoi
send them two more until they'reall gone.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right. We'regoing t --
hey, he'sagreeing to send every kid, every tim we
play two kids he'sagreeing. '
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: What'sth#t radiostation? *
MR. KAVANAUGH: Don't playit, don't y it
until we tell them. Get them on the line.
MR. KORESH: Hi, son. Hi, baby.
MR. KAVANAUGH: David, are they goin
the driveway?
MR. KORESH:Are theygoing downthe drive--no, they'dbe telling us if they did. You gotakradio
> with them don't you? tr
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, but it's, it'siri the
next room. They're there? Can you tell me is tHe car
ithere? Q
MR. KORESH:Tell, tell them we'reseniingl> I
F
O 9 .+? 95I
themout.They'llbe -you'll seeaflashlight atthefront door and, andthey'll --and she'llbe dbwnthere
in just a fewminutes, okay?Are youthere? 5MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, I'mhere. "
MR. KORESH:Okay. Sotell themnot}to driveIoff just,you know,get backbehind thatthinglthere,Iif they'rekind ofuneasy. Q Ii
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, theywill. They'llget.behind theguard shackand, and- I
FMR. KQRESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH:-and then they'll, d then
they'll go out.
MR. KORESH:No, you'llgo right out to them.
Yeah.And, you know,so okayget themready. They'there now,right? E
MR. KAVANAUGH: _Are they there?
MR. KORESH:Yeah, we'regoing --she? going1>
unarmed. V:
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, absolutely.
MR. KORESH:Unarmed. EMR. KAVANAUGH:They lady'scoming unarmed,
absolutely. We,we knowthat.iMR. KORESH:Okay. I only see the -- who?
Okay. They'reon their way now. E
MR. KAVANAUGH:The -- is the car there?
MR. KORESH:Is the car there yet?
9292A
1.» "'r
96
Indiscernible female voice in the
background.! _
MR. KORESH: Okay. The car is at thelgate.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay, and the kids are
coming. Thecar's atthe gate. 5
just a second
second or
when they
right here to
okay?
to talk to them bad.
MR. KORESH: And the children will be out in
or two. ,
MR. KAVANAUGH:They're comingout in just a
two. Okay, good. E
MR. KORESH:And thenyou'll -when you--
get there you'll havethem talk to us, right?
MR. KAVANAUGH:When I get -- when they get1
me I'mgoing tohand themthe phoné,
I>
MR. KORESH:Yeah, becausetheir motherwantsi
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yes, I understand, we'#egoing todo that. ;
are they coming out for -
not going
MR. KORESH:Okay. Yougot theBible dew?MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, Igot it. Are, %re,
MR. KORESH: Yeah, they'recoming out.
to let you down on this.
MR. KAVANAUGH: I know you won'tlet m own.
MR. KORESH: Okay. You got Psalms 89 o n?
MR. KAVANAUGH=Okay. Wait a minute. vid
|92
can't seethem. He thinks they'recoming out
car's there they're comingout he said
MR
»
If the
KORESH: Yeah,well, they'llbe out.
Just tell the guys to be--
MR
MR
MR
he's sending
KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
KORESH: -- don't beuneasy.
KAVANAUGH: Yeah, yeah,
them out. He -- we need
a radio so we can talk to them. Well
MR. KORESH: They're uneasy
just be patient,
to get a car with
I guess. ' t
MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, they just -- they, they
sent a van that didn't havea radio or just a walkie
talkie --
MR. KORESH: Oh --
MR. KAVANAUGH:-- sothey couldn'treahhIthem and that's whatthe delay is.
I
I I
MR. KORESH: Get, get a radio so we can, you
know, make sureno mess-ups happen.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. WhatI'll dois dn thenext time --
MR
MR
KORESH: Uh-huh.
> »l92I
xI
KAVANAUGH: -~I'm goingto putthemqin adifferent car --
MR KORESH: All right.
92 a92
1
.. il ea
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay? Differentcar _l1:henexttime, not this time, witha big radio so wecan talk to
them andwe don'thave anymoreof thesedelays becausewegot to get these babiestaken careof. !
MR. KORESH:Yeah. iMR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible!
MR. KORESH:All right. Okay. Are you readyto be enlightened?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah. Okay. Go ahead.
MR. KORESH:Okay.Now, David is promised by
God that God wouldrule over Israel through his seed.
So Davidwritesin the psalm and the Psalmis89. You
got it there?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, wait,hold one sebond.
If theytake that lady indiscernible!something andhe's goingto get real upset. Make surethey know.
David said the lady doesn'twantto go andthat she's
going back. Is that -- that'sright, isn't it David?
MR. KORESH: Yes, she wantsto come back and
she'll bebringing out each of, each of the children.
MR. KAVANAUGH:She'sgoingto bring outiallthe children.She's comingback. She'sgoing tobringthem out every time, the samelady so wehave the same
drill. No mistakes. All right. Okay. Go ahead.§
MR. KORESH:They understandthere, right?i
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, they do.
92
~ Q199KORESH: Okay. iKAVANAUGH: Psalm89. 92 KORESH: Got it there?
KAVANAUGH: Letme lookhere, yeahwaita
KORESH: Indiscernible! yKAVANAUGH= Okay.Waitaminute,one %-KORESH: Psalms --
KAVANAUGH: Psalm89, what number?
KAVANAUGH: Psalm 89.
KORESH: Okayindiscernible! youknow,what Imean byPsalm 89we're goingto readthe whole'
MR KAVANAUGH:Oh, okay.
MR KORESH: Okay.
K
Baby crying! §MR KORESH:What's, what'swrong withher?
Okay Shedon't wantto leave?Who? Indiscernible!The caris she outthere now?The car'sdriving
Indiscernible femalevoice in thebackground !
they got them
them, the car
KORESH: Okay.So they're- I guessnow.
KAVANAUGH= Davidsays hethinksthey gotis drivingaway. Tellusrightaway, we
0 9 ,§
E 100
need to know. Okay. I think we got them and -5
MR. KORESH: They can'topen the door. What
do you mean youcan't openthe door? Our front door
is, is jammed? well --
lndiscernible female voice inthe
background! E
M. KORESH:Why isitdriving awayfor?K
MR. KAVANAUGH: Where isthe car? 5
MR. KORESH: Yeah, let them, let them,
them go out the back or something or just get the
out there. We need to, we need to get these kids out.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hold on.
Indiscernible femalevoiceinthe background.! E
MR. KORESH: No, make sure it's the front.
Just open a window or something, let them go out t
window.
Indiscernible female voice inthe
background.!
M. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, but ~they'reloo
for the car indiscernible!.
MR. KORESH: But they -the car left?
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, itcouldn't have left.I1r
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Okay. They
out.
MR. KORESH: Okay. They're out.
101
MR. KAVANAUGH:They're outthere. Now, is
it the kids out or the car is out there?
MR. KORESH: The --okay, the, the car is out
there theysay but then theysaid it started leaving.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, it wasn't, itweenie
leaving.
MR. KORESH:Okay. Okay. Okay. That'sgood. All right. E
MR. KAVANAUGH:Where's themother and%hechildren? 92
MR. xoazsn:She's --they're onthe wa%outDOW. »
1 .MR. KAVANAUGH: They're ontheway out now
walking down the drive?
MR. KORESH:Get a radio, that way you canI
know whether, you know, theysee the flashlight.
MR.KAVANAUGH: He's tellingme to get a car
with a radio. Get a car with a radio next time!
We're going to do that.
MR. KORESH:Okay. }
MR.KAVANAUGH: This thing -- it was just
glitch, David, on the walkie andthe reasonwas wewere
trying to, you know, use the van that had all the
windows so, you know, none of your guys would thin @-
MR. KORESH:Yeah, I know. iE
MR. KAVANAUGH:That's all,buddy, it was 5-
~ - a
K ? 102I»
that's theonly thing. You, you know howthingsiwork,
I mean, sometimes communications, you know --
MR. KORESH: Just make sure nothing messes
up.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Nothing will mess up. * r
MR. KORESH:It's yourresponsibility now.MR. KAVANAUGH: The kids are coming? i
MR.KORESH:No, we just -- Sitas gotdocome back.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, theysee theligh
Sita will come back.
MR. KORESH: Keep down Jess, okay. So,
psalm says1MR.KAVANAUGH:Okay, andthekids are cohing
1down with aflashlight withthe mother.
MR. KORESH: They see it, right?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: Okay. i
MR. KAVANAUGH:They're coming.EMR.KORESH:You lovethose kidsnow aslong
as youcan. i1
MR. KAVANAUGH:Wait. Tell Chuckto come inI
here and tell me something. Chuck indiscernible!
on a minute, David. Is, is the truck there? Man 1
you're goingto lose this. Drivesome goddamntruck isthe gate. i
103
MR. KORESH: Something's messingup, huh?
MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, I, I think it's just
communications, the, the walkie-talkie.
Indiscernible male voice in the background.!
MR. KAVANAUGH:All right, a car? It's okay
if it'sa car just sendit. He just wantsyou td sendI
MR. KORESH:Make sure they don'ttry
her. »
MR. KAVANAUGH:No, thekids areat thexguardshack waiting. The kidsare at the guardshack
waiting. Okay. Just tellyou guys it might be a car
instead of the vanwasslowbut we're -it's,
going to be just one vehicle. E
1MR. KORESH:Okay. i
M. KAVANAUGH:I don'twant themto get --
MR. KORESH: It all going now?
I MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah,I think it's[gap] ey
I want to apologize to you for the delay. I feel realbad about it.
MR. KORESH: People are human.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, I guess that'swha
is, youknow. We'reall humanand we'retrying andyou're tryingand, and that's what'sgoing to make i»
3work.I wishitcouldgoa littlequicker butI thi%kwe're goingto have it in a few minutes. i
i
.", " IE
.MR.KORESH: Whatare theysaying? What,104
what are ~-
MR. KAVANAUGH:Is the car there? All right.
It's coming.
MR. KORESH:Okay. IMR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. It's--
MR. KORESH:Ready for the psalm? E
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah,goahead. K MR. KORESH: Psalmas. 1
X I
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Ei
MR. KORESH:It says,"I will sing ofthemercies ofthe Lordforever: with my mouthwill I make
A
known thyfaithfulness to all generations. For I said
your mercyshall bebuilt up forever: thyfaithfulJessshalt thou establish inthe veryheavens." Now,yo?knowwhere God sit onthe throne inRevelation, right?He's gota rainbowover thisthrone don't he? R
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yes, sir, yes, sir. E
MR. KORESH:Okay. Now,that Godspake tqDavid and David is talking aboutGod."I've made
covenant with mychosen," that's theseven seals.
have sworn unto David -"
MR. KAVANAUGH:I'm afraidthey're goingt
turn aroundand goback ifthey don'tgetacar therel Okay. They see the kids, David. é
l
MR. KORESH: Okay. They see them?
i
»92
' 105
MR. KAVANAUGH: They see them and they're,
they're getting together right now, I think. H
' MR. KORESH: Okay. Just don't take her, she
don't want to go.
MR. KAVANAUGH: He's talkingto the kid --
the agent'stalking to the kids. Make surethe mbtherstays there. 1
MR. KORESH: She'll bring out other on
MR. KAVANAUGH: And she'll bring out t
rest. Don't take the mother. She doesn't -- her
there.
MR. KORESH:Baby indiscernible! yes, yes
[gap] so what's goingon now?
MR. KAVANAUGH: I,I -- tell me, tell mei
something, I want to tell him, he wants to know. E
MR. KORESH:Okay. They'redriving off nbw?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Theydrivingoff? K
1
MR. KAVANAUGH:All right. They're gettingin the car he said.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: They'redri
away.L
MR. KORESH: They're driving away now.
MR. KAVANAUGH:They're, they'redriving 92away.
MR. KORESH:Sita's comingback?
92
.'k
I 106
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Sita'sCbming
back?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Sitas coming back?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes.
MR. KAVANAUGH: All like we agreed.
MR. KORESH: Okay.P
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay?I
MR. KORESH: Good boy.
MR. KAVANAUGH:All right.Now listen, 1another carwith a big radio rightfrom Double-E Road
1
that's goingto go in and get the next set of kids
okay? Andbring thosekids here. Okay. Dave,wei wegot them.We're -- 92
MR. KORESH: Okay. Okay. Ready?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:Verse 3, "I have madea covedant
withmy chosen,I have sworn unto Davidmy servant,thy
seed willI establishforever, and buildup thythroneto all generations. Andthe heavensshallpraise theywonders, oh Lord: they faithfulness also -- " i
>
MR. KAVANAUGH:Indiscernible! repeating all
of it.
MR. KORESH= Are you listening?
MR. KAVANAUGH=Yeah, I am, go ahead.
talking -- I'mhere.Your seed and I will establishv
forever -- 1
C,
92 E
to all --
MR
Almighty can
MR.
Lamb, right?
MR.
MR.
indiscernibl
M.
MR.
MR.
among the sons of the almighty"?
MR.
MR.
MR.
i
II
v 1
MR. KORESH: Yeah --r92
was Christ wasn't it? R
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yes, sir,uh-huh. K
the heavencanbecomparedunto theLord?" Youkéowwho Christ is, right? i
MR. KAVANAUGH:Who --where itsays, "W¥o
KORESH: "Canbe comparedunto the Ldrd?"KAVANAUGH: Lord, uhhuh. E
I
KORESH: "Whoamong the sons of the E
be likened to the Lord?"
92KAVANAUGH: Allright.
KORESH:Allright? I mean, only th
KAVANAUGH: Right.
KORESH: And God's goingto reign
e! his faithful, he meanswhathesays.
KAVANAUGH: Right.
KORESH= "God is greatly to be feared i
the assembly of thesaints" --
M. KAVANAUGH: Okay.
KORESH: - and to be had in reverenc
107
MR. KAVANAUGH:~- and build up your hrone
MR. KORESH:--David's,David's seed,that
MR. KORESH: Okay. So it says, "For who in
92 >
92I»E
E
,
C
.
6
7
>92
1 of all them that are about him." i
2 MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.
3 MR. KORESH: That'swhy, "OhLord Godof
4 hosts-- "whichis myFather," --who isthe strong5Lord like unto thee?" --
lMR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. K
MR. KORBSH:" --or to theyfaithfulneshround aboutthee?" --which meansyou're goingto do
just what hesaysin that book, right? T
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, sir.
MR. KORESH:"Thou rulestthe ragingsea,"E92 1whichis the heathen thatraged. Theprophecy saysE
that therage of the great oceanthe sea. "Whentheiwavesthereofarise, thou will still them or thou i
stillest them, you know,God's goingto put the , i enemies outafter this. "Thou hasbroken Ra-hadin »
pieces, asone thatis slain." Now, Ra-hadwas a i
really killed with therestof the people,the reaso
but -- thereason being is, is that the spiescamei and they werebeing searched out --
MR. KAVANAUGH:Right.
MR. KORESH=-- and they cameto her house
and theyasked herto help them. Well,she hadknownthe Godof Israelwas greaterthan hergod, riskedherown life in trying to defendthe spiesof Israel. So
108
harlot inJericho andthe wayshe wassaved, shewasnwt
92 x x
t
' '921 109
they madeacovenantsaying, look,when wedestroylthiscity --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey --
MR. KORESH: Are you there?
MR. KAVANAUGH=Yeah, I'mhere. &
MR. KORESH: -- we will spare you and all
that youbring into your houseso shewas theonly i ordained ministerfrom Godand all she broughtto herhouse theywere saved. But shewas asshe was i
indiscernible! spiritual --
MR. KAVANAUGH:Um-hum,I understand. kMR. KORESH: indiscernible! astrong arm.
Now, the way I get rid of my enemies is I teach the
seven seals and peoplerealize they can't fightagainst
God -- éiMR. KAVANAUGH:Right. I
M. KORESH: -- because, "The heavens are >
thine and the earth is also thine, as for the world and
everything thereof,thou hasfounded them.The north,the south,thou hascreated them:Ta-bor andHer-monishall rejoice in thy name." 'That'sthe places where
Moses hadvisions in Deuteronomy 32about the end of
the world. "Thou hasa mightyarm: strongis they
hand, andhigh isthy righthand." God imposedhis
word inheaven. Hesaid thisis what I'mgoing to do
II
%
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right.
iE110l
MR. KORESH:I'mgoing to send myson hack
again this time being a sinner like the gentiles and
I'm going
you know,
those who
the sight of all the world.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Umhum.
fight againstit I'llmake anexample ofib
MR. KORESH: "Justice and judgment
habilitation of they throne: mercy and
before they face," that's me.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right.
MR. KORESH: See, before God
you all guy's butts --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
M.KORESH: -- I'mtrying to
seals, man.
MR. KAVANAUGH: I understand.
MR. KORESH: This the key of
unlocks the mysteries.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right.
truth
comes
teach
David,
to have him teach the truth to the gentilds,
and those who receive it will be redeemed and
r
are the
shall go
l I
k
and whips
> 9292
E
the seven
it
MR. KORESH="Blessed arethe peoplethat jjythe know the joyful sound: they shall walk, oh Lord,
in the lightof thy countenance." See, my Father is
watching me right now, he's--
Tape 3!
> 92
K I
111
MR. KAVANAUGH:We onnow? Is it coming on?Red light?
Telephone ringing! ~
MR. KAVANAUGH:Yeah, David,they justmbved[gap] they'renot coming toward you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER:It startsndthen it quits. The batteries are right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #3:You need
batteries?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Umhum.92
STEVE: Yes?
MR. KAVANAUGI-I:The newsconference. okay».What happened? I didn'thear it. 3
STEVE: Well, anyway, Davidwanted to know if
you got his message out yet on the airwaves. I
MR. KAVANAUGH:No, that --no, here's whatI
was tryingto workout withDavid.I can get the ymessage played- I know, but he, he just --
STEVE: I'mgoing to get off the phone
because, youknow, that's,that's thething that -- hesaid to you andthat's what'sgoing to be. é
M.KAVANAUGH: Steve?
STEVE: Yeah? '
MR. KAVANAUGH:CanI talk to him? }STEVE: You walk to talk -- no.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Well,I, I really want
. 92
C
p
92
Q Q
MR.
do too. And whatI'm sayingis; let's
agreement --goin to h
sack -- the sack.
si- F 112
to do it, I want to et 'tg 1 on there but, you know,
we've, we'vealready put one messageon there and +-
STEVE: I haven't heardany.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah David h d, ear it. [gap]STEVE: We want to resolve it. é
KAVANAUGH: Iwant toresolve it,and~you92
make an,n Rg ave it played and then I'm going
to -I, I want toget somekids orwounded out,okly?I'm goingto do the thin f'g irst.We vealready plagone message, you know. [ga J Ok .Ep ay Okay. I need to
I
1 1;! 'YI|"i92l|'92|192,92I92'||¥|92vi||92';i|I||P"||921 ll, 92{{92 ; rt-r"'92Y LIE:123 4567 89012 3 456 789 0 1234511 1 1 111 1 1 1 222222/l__92> C
mmOwmTAFmOTmwmmOQWUum399 11hCI a M123 45678 90 123 4567 89O12341 ll 1 1 11 1 11 22222KI,_
Tape 4!
Phone ringing!
MR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible!
MR. McGHEE:Jim, this is RogerMcGhee.!
MR. KAVANAUGH:Just give meyour-- I'll;
have him call you. What'syournumber? Ii
MR. McGHEE: Indiscernible!
MR. KAVANAUGH; Give me the number.
MR. McGHEE: What's thenumber here '
indiscernible!. Thankyou, 468-- V ~MR. KAVANAUGH: Did you have oneof those
guys call indiscernible! what's, what's the
indiscernible!. k Phone ringing! 1
I
MR. KAVANAUGH:Indiscernible! This is Jim.
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #1:Hello, Jim,isthis Waco? s
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #1:IndisCernibl%!at the airfield. V
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Holdon just a minut%.Get mesomebodyintherewith aphonenumberthat's gindiscernible! that the indiscernible! guys cancall.
Give meaphonenumber, give meaphonenumber 867-6605.
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #1: 867 what?
2
I92
33MR. KAVANAUGH: 6605.
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #1: All right.
I'll call you right back.
M. KAVANAUGH:Thank you. Hey, there's3
Air Forcecaptain bringingin moreFBI andyou needIohook themup with the --Mr. Gay, the, the airport >
manager indiscernible!Imean, the worst he could sayI
is send them out first thing in the morning. Imean --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: Can't leth
harass indiscernible!.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, that'strue. ;3
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: Indiscernible
MR. KAVANAUGH: Iam too. Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIEDMALE SPEAKER#2= lndiscerniblieMR. KAVANAUGH:Airport manager-- I'll tell
them. I mean, I think we can do it. Imean, he's*
going tobein jeopardy but I mean,you loadthem upIwith, with vests and a helmet and but still, I mean -»
yeah, but they'rekids.That's right. Oh, Iagree, 1
yeah, and we get the ~- I mean a school bus is a ,
nonthreatening thing. I'll talk to Phil, maybe wecam
get something. Hey, we all got to bend a little ~»
indiscernible! come back i > vr
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #2:Yeah,but She?released. i
MR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible! yeah.Yeah.:
-
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O O92 i
who is that? l
GARY: You asked me about wounded, I guess?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, yeah. How manypeople}
are hurt inside?
GARY: Well, rightoff the truth is x dont
know. I heard David saying when they were asking him,
he was talking about there was a leg wound to one
person, another person got it inthe hand and I gue
it was a two-year-old girlthat got killed.
MR. SCHNEIDER: A two~year-old girlwas
killed? E
GARY: Yes, was shot.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, was shot.
GARY: That's terrible. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: And I'mnot sure about -
thinkthere might have been another young one, a small
one that might have, I'm notcertain yet.
GARY: Did, did you know the little girl?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I didn'tget to find out wh
it was because I'vebeen onthe phonealmost totally
the entire time -
»
GARY:Yeah, yeah. '92 i
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- from this morning on so I}
haven'tbeen able -- I'vetalked to a lot of people
about a lot of things.L92
GARY:Yeah, yeah. Well,how do you think~
II
Imean, with the situation that's gone on so far an
the, the tragedy that's, that's, that'sbeen on both
sides? Howdo youthink we might be able to resolveI
this so that we can, we can take care -- I
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's what -- you 2
,know, that's where Ifeel that David -- I'mhere
because the man who has had the ability to harmoniz
many -- in fact all the Bible and, and made --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- it very clear. So
know, it would -- I would rather, you know, let you
talk with him --
GARY: Sure, I --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- about that. 92 >92
GARY: -- I do want to talk to David later.E
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. He'son the phone i4
right now in fact, but --
GARY: Yeah, is he doing an interview now?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, I believe he is --
GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -or I know his mother
called there and left a message that she wanted to be
called and, you know, he's talkedto afew like that
92
5
i
and there are relatives here or there -- ~
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- they get a line on the
i
I
2
1 radio and --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: --ou k
to alleviate the --
GARY: How does he feel by, by having an
opportunity to explain things --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know
indiscernible!.
about it?
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's happyto have the
Iopportunity --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: --to be able CO talk with
people and we don'twant to force our beliefs upon
anyone, we want everyone always to have the
indiscernible! to, to evaluate --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: --thereby giving a good
verdict or judgment to what they hear.
GARY: Sure.
»M. SCHNEIDER: And if they don't that it's
there, if it's not reasonable and --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and concise and so forth
well, you know, that'sthe freedom that God has given
GARY: --from his side, that he feels bette
6
y now, so he s trying
I
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every one of us.
GARY: Yeah, yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:So, you know, that'sthe way
it's been.But, youknow,Imeanwe, wewere always?
hoping thatmusic wouldbe thevery vehiclethat we1might be able to make a statement to the world in a i
ivery common,decent way. But David, you'll findout he
went to a lot of churches. I went with him to soman
of them.
GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Went up against the scholar
they could not controvert the doctrine.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I mean,when youcan goto ai1Bible and not give an opinion in theory but answer L
every question withchapters and context. Isaw
scholars that were 70 years old, one mancould speak 60
languages, they had nothing to say in response because
they knew the man had something.
GARY: Well, you know, I --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Just like when I tried to
controvert him for quite some timebefore I actually
became involved.
GARY: Well, David is obviously very
important in your life.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, it's, it's, it'sin
»1
3
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92 I1
I Uthat if he has the truth because I wantto live .
gforever. Ever since I was a very small child --
GARY: Um-hum.
looked up at the stars and wondered why is this --
where are we going, how did we get here, what's thi
vast expanse about? *
GARY: Yeah.
everything dies here, plants, people, animals, 6,000
pleasure butwe're never satisfied and fulfilled and
relatives can be taken out of your life, friends,
accidents. God, what's goingon?
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Who are you, God?
GARY: Yeah.
to know God. I tried it the Christian routine for the
majority of my life and in honesty, I mean, I've never
really known God but I've alwayswanted to know God.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! claim to know
him now, but I do see something about a book that's
very logical and clear and this man alsohas opened up
very deep sciences, physics, astronomy and these are
1 8
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- I'vealways like yourself
MR. SCHNEIDER:Why isthis earth a cemetery
years of woe and human history. We get a littlebit o
MR. SCHNEIDER: But I'venever really claimed
the things that not many have gotten to hear recent
but those that have gotten to sit down and study
been totally astounded.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But --
how, how is hefeeling with his injuries?
M. SCHNEIDER: He said he's sore.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, well, yeah, well,
talking all day long.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And so far, I mean,
so --
of confusion inside. You must be --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well -- '
todayand indiscernible!.
that David-- I guess David did aradio interview and
iy
indiscernible! would have gotten to the place where
you'd havegotten to hear those things and wouldhave
i
GARY: Youknow, I've just beenhandeda note
that's, that'sbeen completed. It -- you know, I --
that's whathe said, he's soreand, you know, he'sbee
everything -- he's doingokay. He was bleeding earlie
in the day but that'sallbeen stopped andeverything
GARY; Well, there must, there must be a lot
9
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GARY: BoyI wouldthink he'dmore than sorei
>
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GARY: -- allwondering what, what'shappened
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is --
I GARY: Yeah.
very onset of the thing--
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
bang, bang, bang, bang, bang and I mean coming from
outside.
GARY: Um-hum.
about, "Stop, we'vegot women and children here."
remember him yelling that, I heardit very clearl
And that's
Y.
and windows and all --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: It was, it was amazing.
GARY: I guess everythingsort of turned
topsy-turvy afterthat.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
we, we like -- wedon't--I don't knowany of your
agents or anything like that but I, I -- you know, I
have great'respectand like he hashad all his lifethe law and people involved and trying to protect
little ways from itwhen all of a sudden I heard this
MR. SCHNEIDER: I heard him yelling somethin
when I saw the wallsbeing just ripped up 1
i |>
110
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, the truthof the matter
MR. SCHNEIDER: -what indiscernible! the
rI
I mean I was standing righti
near thefront doorand Ihad just walkedaway down a92 92
the
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Yeah, you know, and I mean
for
92
1 others freedoms and, and --
2
3
11
times in history conflicts get started and unfortuna
things happen and it's --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, and I'm notsa
indiscernible!.
Yins
GARY: -- because people don't really
understand each other.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
there --definitely it was confusi th
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- I would have given
anything in this world if, if -like, like David sai
he hadhoped thatRobert wouldhave goneback toyou
and saidthis manis really interestedin showing the
Bible andhe wouldhave lovedto sit down withyou _people --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and, andanswerany
questions, if youwouldhave hada warrant for him he
n happy to go with you.
GARY: Umhum.
would have bee
MR. SCHNEIDER:And if youwant to know whywe havebeen -- like if you hearthe interviewhehas
just doneontheradio, he'll letyou knowthe reasonswhy wewereeven having anyweapons whatsoever.It
ls
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GARY: Well, it's a shame.I think so many
te
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do
an devise a a
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it's abiblical thing. It's notagainst you, it's dot
against anybody. A
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But it goes back to the BeckA r
of Luke,Chapter22,verses 36 through38, butit ha%to be seen inlight of the Bookof Revelationand the92writings of the prophet. D
k
GARY: You know, Steve, Iknow we've just metI1
and just getting to know each other, but you know I
hope, Ihope you think and, and will, will understan
that I don't wantto see anybody in there hurt and I I
to see anybody outsidehurt. 3
M. SCHNEIDER: Ireally appreciate that, I
GARY:And,and Igenuinelywant tosee if welan't resolve this. A
192
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right, good. E
GARY: And I'd liketo, I'dlike to see if w
, method bywhich we can put these h
apons down and come on out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that'swhat we would
ke to talk to you about.
GARY: well,I d beglad. I think -- 192> MR. SCHNEIDER: Negotiate and ~» 1
ndiscernible!.
GARY: -- Ithink we can do that, Ithink we
r
92
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can do that, I'm,I'm --I don'thave any doubt of
I know you're concernedabout your security in thene
based on what'shappened but I think --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
GARY: --but I think we can,I think we canI
address thoseconcerns in a way that, that you find
appropriate andsuitable andthat wecan, wecan get92thismatter attended to.I mean,I'm just- there's,there's notmuchsensefor this to continue onand -
MR. SCHNEIDER:I agree, I agree. y
GARY: -- and haveadditional people hurt. E
I'd liketo get back to wherewewere withJim on the92}
children. I'd like to see if wecan -- ~Is
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah, that's -- N9292
EGARY: -- get somemore kids out. What do F
you think? E
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, that sounds goodto mIn fact -- '
GARY: Yeah. 3
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- Jim had kind of suggested92
that,you know, hisbeing tired and soforth that we'dtake a little --
GARY: Sure. 92
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- break and a rest.i
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:A lot of themare laying down4
92 >
I4
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GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and, you know, everybody
is quite tired, you know, hyped up after all such an'k
experience and --
GARY: Yeah, yeah. -
MR. SCHNEIDER:So forthat reasonI waskihdof formyself, notso muchDavid's part,but Iwas kindof happy just to take alittle break. v
GARY: Yeah, well, I'll, I'll -- 1K
MR. SCHNEIDER: But of course --
GARY: -- you know, it's, it'salways a nic
thing when, you know,we've gotso manypeople out her
from so many different organizations and agencies. ,
when westart demonstrating that we'rehaving children
come onout and that everybodys healthy and when, wheni
good shapeit just creates a real good feeling on both
sides, don't you think?
MR. SCHNEIDER:It does, it does, because we,
wewant them to be out, you know, and --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you can look at them and
check them over and --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- you know, see thatthey're
you seethat we'vebrought themhere andthey're in92
92
92
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92 I192 l92
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ihealthy and --
of the kids and there's genuine
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah,
GARY: Yeah. So, how
another two out?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well,
even now if you would like.
GARY: Sure, I would.
GARY: Um-hum.
MRSCHNEIDER
talking with, Steve?
.: Okay.
Wtalking to him right no and --
GARY: Yeah.
GARY: Yeah.
honest with him.
GARY: Yeah,I really would like to do tha
MR.SCHNEIDER: I'm talkingto Gary whohas
replaced Jim. Jim is getting some rest right now
if you would like, you know,he's willingto keep on I
}» I
GARY: Yeah,I saw them here, the, the, the
ladies from the Child Service are taking real good dare
affection and --x
we appreciate that. 1
can we work to get 3
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we can start doing thatl
r
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! to go on. i
i
working and remove morechildren if you want.
Does -- is that David you're
David is -- I'm
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and he's beenhappy and he
likes dealing with Jim, he's beenso forthright and --
MR.SCHNEIDER: -- frank and, and open and
l
92
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1 16* GARY: Well, I think now, you --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Infact, here's whatJim said
to him indiscernible!.
p GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: He said, "Don't deal with
anybody but me," that's what he told David. S
GARY: Well -- '92
MR. SCHNEIDER:Even when another faction, i
the Sheriff's Department, had Wayneindiscernible!1
another phone line -- 3
GARY: Yeah. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I understand many opposi
and different things than what Jim -- Jim says, "No, ikI>
David, let'syou and I deal on this all the way ~
through." And David says, "Because of what he all»
showed -- "- 5k
GARY: Yeah. i v
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- " -- his honesty," and,
and, you know, youguys showedthat you were doing what
you were saying and it was working out very well so he
wants to continue I guess the same program with Jim,
that's whathe was just telling me right now.
GARY: Yeah, well, Ithink we can continue
the same problem but, but, but it'llbe with me now
because Jim'sgone, but, you know, Steve, you've,
you've talked --
II
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11 me.
20
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25
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13 MR. SCHNEIDER: Gary?
14 GARY: Yeah?
15 MR. SCHNEIDER: Here'sDavid.
16 GARY: Okay, okay, Steve. Hi, David? 1
17 MR. KORESH: Gary? i
23 MR. KORESH: Well, I'm, I'm
_ RK 173
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that'swhat he - I
GARY: -- you've talkedwith me for a while
3 now and, and David hasn'tand Ithink maybe I can
4depend on you to, to tell David that --
5 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well --
6 GARY: --you know, Gary is just like Jim 1
7 and, and, and he also cares for --
8 MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! just a r' '92
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10 GARY: Sure, I wish you'd dothat. Excuse RF»l
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18 GARY:Hi, David.
19 MR. KORESH: Yeah.
GARY: David, how are you feeling?
Q XMR. KORESH:A little pain, a little pain.
y22 GARY:I'm surprised if it's justa little.
telling you a
Steve called me up. I
comfortable in talking
to be here for a while
same things that, that
can't develop the same
that ~-
MR. KORESH:
my word, that I'd deal
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:
GARY: What,
' 1
Ax 18know, I know you were real
with Jim and,but, but I'mgoing
now and I want :o do the very
Jim did with you and see if we
kind of trusting relationshipg
I told I promised Jim,I gaveK
with nobodybut Jim. 1a 1
That'swhathe made me promise
what,whathe was talkingaboudin thatregard though wasthe otherphone linethatwasgoing on and he --
MR. KORESH: That's notwhathe said.
92 92
iGARY: Well -- i
MR. KORESH: He said we're goingto do this
together to the end.
1i
GARY: Yeah, but, but I mean, he --
MR. KORESH:No buts, that's whathe said,
you know?
GARY: And he meant that.
MR. KORESH: Now, now, what you failed to do
is that there's agentsclimbing ~-like I said, wegotnight vision.
GARY: Yeah, I understand. I
MR. KORESH:And, and the thing of it is is
that there'sguyscoming from the
from theback of the property and
closer and closer.
GARY: No, we're,we're
away, and, and --
MR. KORESH: No, you're
keeping them away.
GARY: Yeah, Steve -- I
mentioned this before and we told
they said they weren'tin that bui
MR. KORESH: Well, they
in that building, we'renot stupid
GARY: No, no, no ones
David, you know, we don't wantto
hurt. After what's happenedtoday
barnand comin
they're getting
keeping those guys
not, you are not
just got -- Steve
the tactical team,
lding.
reNational--they
suggesting that.
see anybody else
~
MR. KORESH: Exactly, now why --
GARY: -~ it's been terr
and youknowwe'renot going to assaultthat building, i
that's notin, that'snot in anybody's interest.And
ible on both sides
92
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1you knownobody's goingto do anything toharm youor
the kids. Now, whathappened todaywasatragedy and
we just don't wantto make it worse. I mean, I,I know
you agreewith that.
MR. KORESH:So, whyare theystill coming?
GARY: I'm,I'm sendinanother messa eto
92K 492
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MR. KORESH: No --
theyre lying to you.
you have over the National Guard?
GARY: Pardon?
MR. KORESH: D0 h
National Guard?
you know that.
GARY:
ago from --
were in the area. I
perimeter.
MR.KORESH: Yh
GARY: Okay.
MR.KORESH: So
GARY: Oka .W 11
going to send a message and I'm writi
GARY: I didn't know -- Imean I kn
GARY: -- they're not there.
MR. KORESH: -- they are here, they're,
GARY: Okay. Well, they --
MR. KORESH: The National Guard is here.
didn't knowthey were in the
ea , they re in our property.
you need, you need to get
with those guys and tell them to pull back.
going out right as we speakto do that. S bome odys
ng it down,
ew they
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you aveanycontrol over the
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GARY: The National Guard's out there too?
MR.KORESH: Yeah, theNational Guardsherek
No, I, I just got here about twohourd
y e , well, and, and the word's
20
92
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somebody's goingto send a messageinthere to téll
themthat.David, I'd, I'dreally like to work with
you again on seeing if
M. KORESH:
what I'mgoing to do --
GARY: Okay.
MR. KORESH:
one of them out.
GARY: Well,
MR. KORESH:
negotiate and see what
to do.
GARY: Well,
MR. KORESH:
is get my babies out.
GARY: Well,
M. KORESH:
the phone --
we can'tget some more kids out.
Well, that's what I'm,that's
-- I'mgoing toget everylést
good. -
And Jim, Jim says we'll, weill
they want to do and what we Mant92
that's fine here. i
But the first thingI want to do
I, I want to help you do than.
Now, so when Jim gets back on
GARY: Jim, Jim's notgoing to be back
tonight, David, and --
MR. KORESH:
promised me that --
GARY: Well,
people here and Jim's,
M.KORESH:
Well, he, he told me, he
you know, there's a lot of
Jim's justone guy and -- ~ >
No, but Jim is the one that I E
made the agreement with. E
I 22
GARY: Well,Jim's agreementis good with me.Now, David --
MR.KORESH: It isnot, that's notwhat we
agreed on.
GARY: David,now, you've,you've toldme andSteve toldme howyou wantto workthis outwithus andyou wantto negotiatewithus now. Now,do, do yqu
thinkthat I'm,I'm notgoing tofollow suitwithwhatJim said? -
MR. KORESH:Me andJim madean agreement.GARY: Um-hum. 1
MR.KORESH: Wait a second.
MR.SCHNEIDER: Gary?
GARY: Yes?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah seenow, David'ssayinghim andJim madean agreementand, andeven Jimdid~
tell methat,he said that,"Steve ifyou'd likeyou;can talk withGary." I said, "I will, I'll *
continue--" --1
GARY: Um-hum. j
M.SCHNEIDER: -- I said, "We'llgive you
break." Hesaid hewas verytired.He said, "Steve,,k
why don'tyou takea break,"he said,"and Itrust you,nothing's goingto happen,we're notgoing tohave anypeople comeon."é
GARY: Um-hum.
v
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123
MR. SCHNEIDER:He says,"If you want when
the morning comes youcan take a little rest and let
your people rest and maybe be refreshed in the
morning." He says, "We can pick up on it right
there - continue bringing the children out," which wewill do.
GARY: Um-hum. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER:Wewill continue to do sd.
GARY: Well,Ithink we shoulddo it rightHOW .'
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well -- well, get Jim onthephone then. I
GARY: Jim,Jim is long sincegone tobed korthe night. 1
:
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, yousee that's--what,
what doyou think the condition we'rein right now? ,
GARY: Well, Iknow, I know, and, and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
GARY: - are we going to make the whole i
thing dependentupon Jimthough, Steve? - i MR. SCHNEIDER:Itmay be becauseif he said
he gavehis wordand that'sthe wayit was going tobdand that's where --
GARY: I know. ,
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- stands with David. }
GARY: I, Iunderstand, but, but Ihope David
24i
will be open enough. If, if you're bothgenuine in
wanting to resolve the situation peacefully 4
MR. SCHNEIDER:You know, I.understand the
psychology you'reusing.
GARY: No, I'm notusing psychology. I'm
just using --
MR. SCHNEIDER:No, no,no, I -- okay,let's --
GARY: -~plain old common sense. I
MR. SCHNEIDER:-okay, Gary, okay, but * L
still, you know, the bottom line isbecause of the 5
predicament we're in - I
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- the circumstances, we'restill --you know, you get this indiscernible! of
know, wewant totrust you, you've shownus somethingsbut -- l i
GARY: That'sright. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER:-let's-you know, let
have yougo a little bit further here and, and
indiscernible!.
GARY: But Steve, what if I said, what if I l
said to you Steve,I don'twant totalk to you, I onlyl
want to talk to David? Would -- I mean,that wouldn't1
make sense would it?
MR. SCHNEIDER: It - well, it
i 92
I
92
indiscernible!.
s '25
GARY: No, no, because I wantto talk to
anybody in there.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, you can talk to me but at
the same time it was David and Jim thatgot this
negotiation going --
GARY: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- so that's where it
indiscernible!.
92
GARY: Well, they got, they got it going and
they made some great progress --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, sure, and I agree
GARY: -- and there'sabsolutely no reasoné
why we can't gofurther with it.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, if you'd like to
upJim and, and ask him about it --
GARY: Well, I ~
MR. SCHNEIDER: -because he gave his
already. I mean indiscernible!.
GARY: Jim, Jimgave hisword but,you
Jim, Jim'snot the only person out here, Steve.
you be reasonable on this? A
MR. SCHNEIDER: I am being reasonable.
going by what the man told me --
GARY: Okay.
Y»v
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wake
92
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know,
Can't92
1
I'm
MR. SCHNEIDER:-and he was very clear, it
,
I,
92
»92»>k~
V 92
,-
92
' 92 _ 26
was not --' f
GARY: If Jim, if Jim --
MR. SCHNEIDER:--he wasn't ambiguousabout
what he was saying.
GARY: SoI'm,I'mto understandthat then
you would,you woulddo everythingJim wouldtell you?:1
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, infact -
GARY: Well, see --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- whathe left as hisword,I said, that's fineand if you wantedto get him up§and,and restart thisthing that's finealso --
GARY: Youknow, it almost soundslike -- x
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- but then if --
GARY:--we'reletting, we'reletting the}kids suffer because of this --
MR. SCHNEIDER:They aren'tsuffering rightlnow. 1
GARY: -- and --
MR. SCHNEIDER:As long as you are where K>
you're atand you give us your word --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and we giveyou our * 92Kx
word --'
GARY: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- everything is goingto
P92
92 92 i 92 92
1~192 92
27
relationship.
GARY: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER:By letting that little time
go by you'll, you'llsee that all the moreI'm going to
put more trust in someone like yourself. .
GARY: Sure. Well, we're,we're, we'renot
going todo anythingto causeanybody anyharm. I jstv
think it'sunfortunate though that we can't keep7
communicating and negotiating. l
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well,we're ~- well, that'mO _ 92
whatwe're doing right now. 1
GARY: Yeah, but I mean, David's just shut K
the door on me. .
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, he didn'tshut the door
on you.
GARY: N0?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Not at all. In fact, that's
-- we'repicking up on what Jim last told us and that's
why I said but through that timeI'm still willing totalk to you --
GARY: Well .
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- without even going to
sleep indiscernible!.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- been talking to you to
make sure ever thin ' s cool --
28
GARY: Yeah. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER:-that what's goingon here,
what we can observe and see --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and you can keep us
informed that everything is still fine.
GARY: Yeah, I understand, I understand, andI know --
MR. SCHNEIDER:He's theone that said takea
little break, I know it's beena, it'sbeen a lot om
you and it's beena lot on us and -~ 1
GARY: Yeah. _ ,1IMR. SCHNEIDER:-- we, we said we appreciate
that.
I
GARY: Um-hum, no, and, and, and that's,
that's correctbut, youknow, Jim,Jim hadto leave nowand ~- »
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, but do you understand
it's -you know,it's hardto keepyour witsabout youi
when, youknow, you'regoing onfor like say 24 hours?
GARY: Yeah,yeah, I know.
MR. SCHNEIDER:So, you know, we're--I -
we're getting to a place here where, you know, I don't
want to do anything jumpy or foolish or off-the-wall or
I mean,or have,have anybody heredo anythinglikethat.
92i92
3
V
' 2 9
GARY: No, I certainly agree with you there.
MR. SCHNEIDER:See, that'sthe whole point.
GARY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So, what Jim suggested
sounded very reasonable, it madea lot of sense to he.
GARY: Yeah.Well, whatJim wassuggestihg_
was that Jim had been on the phone with you so long
that Jim needed to take a, take a breath and take a
break.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You mean like me? '
GARY: Pardon?
MR. SCHNEIDER: You mean like me?
GARY: Exactly, exactly, so you know what I?m
saying. And Jim had to take a, a mental break for a E
minute because what you'regoing through -- 3
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, I haven't, Ihaven't E
myself.
GARY: I know, I know, and we took that >
little break for a while.
KMR.SCHNEIDER: For afew minutes, but he's
continued on through and I appreciate that he had and
said, "Look, Jim, if that's what you suggest and, and
you'vegivenus sometrust and vice versa -~ " --
GARY : Um -hum .
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- " -- we'vegiven you the
trust," he thought that was great. We madevery good
92I 0 0
1- =1 30
progress andhe said,"Let's pickup onthis andif youwould likewe'll continuetalkingtoyou by phoneieverynow and then." I said, "That is fine."
GARY: Good.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I says,"If you wouldlikewe'll ---- I says,"I'll,I'll leaveit thatway andwe'll buildon thattrustrelationship." i
GARY: Okay.I, Iagreewith youandI,andIdon'twant to-- 2
MR. SCHNEIDER:Thank you,Gary --
GARY:-- Idon'twant to --
MR.SCHNEIDER:-- honestly, thank you,Ivmean that. 1
GARY: Butyou know,beforealittle while 1
agowewere talking aboutyou did say you didn'tsee
anyreasonwhy we couldn'tgo aheadand makesome
arrangements forsomeof thekids now andkeep,keeppgoing likewewere. .
lMR.SCHNEIDER:Well, that's-- well, see *
that's --I know,but that's becauseI wasgoing tosleaveit -- or, orwhere David wastheone began--
GARY:Yeah.
MR.SCHNEIDER:-- this withhim and, youknow,the one hetalkedto,right, I'm surewasJimand, andbecausesomuch wasworkedout and --
GARY:Um-hum.
3l
MR. SCHNEIDER:--the very wordhe gavehim
and everything, you know,he's alreadybuilt a
foundation with him. And not ~-
GARY= Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and not to take anything
away fromyou, but it began so well that way and
indiscernible!. ~92
GARY: Well,then wecan just build on thatrelationship. '
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, well, that's whatI'h
saying, but his final suggestion madea lot of - iti
was veryreasonable, madealot of sensebecause of dhecondition we'rein and what's alltaken place. You
know,aslate asitgets people aregoing toget morek jittery and soforth and if they have -I
GARY: Well,we don'twant thatto happen. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER:But see, that's whatI'm
talking about. And youknow, Imean Ican speakfor
myself butthere arepeople here,you know,that stillwant to do what they want to do.
GARY: Howdo people feel in there now?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, I you know
indiscernible! littlenervous and jumpy whenthey see
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- any kind of movement out
92
I
[
1-.
.I
32
there. They-you know, theywant totrust A
indiscernible! allthe moreand alot of them do,butat the same timethere'sa lot of people that are
still, you know, becauseof whatall took place
earlier. .GARY: Yeah.Well, howis yourmorale ih
there andeverything? Imean, peopleholdingupokay?MR. SCHNEIDER:Morale isvery good,yeah.GARY: iYeah?
MR. SCHNEIDER:You know,it's again,based onsomething outsideourselves.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:We're -you know,we're Klooking at a higherpower thanourselves.
GARY: Umhum. »
MR. SCHNEIDER:That's wherewe canget our1
strength. .GARY: Yeah,yeah. Youknow, DavidsoundedE
like he was insome, somepretty significant i
discomfort. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, especiallyfrom talkingfrom, youknow, earlythis --you know, fromthemorning hours right --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- on through afterall thattook place,he's noteven hada, a breakwhatsoever,
, F
92
lI Q C
~ 33
not --
GARY: What, what sort of medical care is he
receiving? I mean, has he got --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, we have nurseshere--GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and they've attendeddohim and ~-
GARY: Is he bandagedup pretty good? i
MR. SCHNEIDER:From whatI understand, yeah.GARY: Yeah.2
MR. SCHNEIDER:He's gota niceshirt on andeverything so he looks good to me. N
l
GARY: Yeah. Is heable to walk around? ;
MR. SCHNEIDER:No,rightnow he's relaxingGARY: Yeah. Q MR. SCHNEIDER:He's smilingat mein fact.EGARY: He'ssmiling? ~
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.A
GARY: Wouldit be possible for me totalk to11David somemore? <
MR. SCHNEIDER:Would youwant totalk with LGary still or would it be possible to talk somemore?. 1
He's beentalking so long. Is thereany way wecould Eget a little break and - ~
GARY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- could I, could I call you
5 4
,5
, 6
5 7
. s
11 I
12
Iright back, Gary?
2 GARY: Sure, no, that'sfine.
3 MR. SCHNEIDER: Evenfrom where I'm sittin
s arting to quite sore to be
honest withyou.
GARY: Well, you know what, take a rest an
you know, and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
| 9 n
GARY: -- and what we'll dois -- you know10 what I' 'm goingto do is, you and Davidtalk and, and
m going to ~
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
GARY: -- stretch my legs. But -- Il
MR. SCHNEIDER: Sounds good. 3
ld just ask youto:think of one thing. 92
GARY: -- I just -- Iwou
M.SCHNEIDER: Okay.
to center everything on, on just individuals because
this is more important than just --
MR. SCHNEIDER: N0, I, I --
GARY: - one person here.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-no, Iagree. Iwouldn't
ishas to, you know -- »
GARY: Yeah, yeah.
want to be so fool
MR. SCHNEIDER: --peg anything into one
GARY: And,and I think Idon'twant you 1
i
II
E
I9
right here my butt's t' '
92 dI
v
. 92
l 3 5
little hole, but -~ 1
GARY: There's, there's, there'sa lot of --
well, you know, if you'll justlisten to me for a
second. There'sa lot of good people out here, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.I
GARY: And,and I know what'shappened todayl
may cause you to doubt that sometimes, but there 1
really, really is, And there's peopleout herethat92want tosee everybodyinside therecome outand notbehurt and sothis situation can be resolved and that 1
92
everybody hasan opportunityto - i
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm surethat -~ 92
GARY: - to say this is what happenedand 1
this is our perspectiveonit, this is-- you know,ha?an opportunityto air the wholesituation. And, andwe
can get it -- we can, we canmove beyondwhereweare,§
and everybodywantsthat.And, and I'mhere to help X
youin any way I can, andI want to see thoselittle EE
children comeout, and I want to see you comeout and It1want to see David come-out and all the women in there
and I don't wantto see --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, I appreciate that.
GARY: - anybodyelse get hurt.
MR. SCHNEIDER:No, well, that's --you know,
that's whatwe wantto do is talk with you and startworking that out.
.
,a92
92
GARY: Yeah, and I'mgoing t
night for you so --
MR. SCHNEIDER:And I apprec
K.36
0 be here all
iate that.
GARY: -- I think I- you know, I, Iwould
hope that the samesort of trust -~ Ji
enough to have metalk to you and I th
tellyou a lotand if he --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, thanks
tohave alittle -- you know, I, I do
you are going to allow for us to have
here. I mean, likemy legsare cramped
GARY: Yeah.
MR. scrmsxnsm -- my butt's
GARY: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- you know,
talking on the phonesfor so long it's
GARY: Yeah,but it's thewa
useful time spent becausewe've gotten
other better, we've, we'vestopped a1
from developing, we've clarifiedsome
misunderstandings,Ithink we've estab
faith. We'vehopefully demonstratedt
sincerity and our genuineinterest in
And Iwant you and David to think abou
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.
GARY: -- after you rest.
m trusts me .
ink that should92 r
for allowinglmei
appreciate that92
a little break92
soreand --
sitting here V
y -- it's been ,
to know each92
ot of problems 3
1xK
lished some good 1K
o you our, our 11
everybody inside.
t those things --
C
5
37
MR. SCHNEIDER:Right. '
GARY: And,and believe me, we'll- we're
flexible, we'll work with youin anywaywe can -+
MR. SCHNEIDER:Thank you,Gary, I reallyindiscernible!.
GARY: ~to resolve this but, you know,be
assured, youknow, we'll,we'll take care of this
movement outthere. I'msure there'sa lot edgy and--
edgy people,but nobodyis comingin to get you. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER:Thank you,thank youso mubh.GARY: Okay? 1MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay, Gary.
GARY: Butwe expect you tobe responsibleinthere andto takecare ofyourselves, takecare ofthekids. But I'll behere and - _
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.kGARY:- you'll getback withme ina little
Kbit?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yes, I will, Gary.IGARY: Okay, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Thank youmuch.
GARY:Good enough.
MR. KORESH: Bye-bye.
GARY:Byebye.
Gap!
GARY:Hello?
E
92 1
92 92
r
92
92
38
MR. SCHNEIDER:Hello, Gary?
GARY: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Steve back here.
GARY: Yeah, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I'm losingmy voice.
GARY: Yeah. You all right?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, yeah.Anyway, thebuys just reportedto methatthey saw menrightupat thefront door even. 2
GARY: Nobody'sat your front door, Steve,'not 92
MR. SCHNEIDER:who would itbe?
GARY: Itmust beone ofyour people.You %-MR. SCHNEIDER:Hang on,hang on.GARY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Serious-- justhang on.GARY: Sure.
Unidentified malevoice in background.!Gap!
MR. SCHNEIDER:These guysare sayingtheysaw men out front.
GARY: Now,I don'tknow ifit's becauseofwhat's happenedtoday, they'reseeing shadowsorwhatever. Iam toldthere isnobody onyour property.
- MR. SCHNEIDER: You'retoldthat,but you'requitea distanceaway at the sametime andthere --
.-
0 0 p39
GARY: Well, you're ~- .
MR. SCHNEIDER:--is -there was a semi or
some humongoustruck thatdid pull onPerry'spropertyclearly seen - I
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-just across the road.; All¬
of a sudden nowwe havemen incertain areasaroundthe
perimeter. Thesethey seemoving, movingright in thefront - =
GARY:Yeah. @
MR. scnnsrnsa:-- someright up close bythe
door. yGARY:Well, the're certainlypeople on the
perimeter butthere's nobodyonyourproperty and if 1
they wereup to the front doorthat,that would havedo
be on your property, right? I mean, doyou think
someone wouldbe foolish enough tocome upto your
front door with what'sgone on?92
MR. SCHNEIDER:Are you serious after what 19292
happenedeven this morning? iI GARY:Yeah,I'm -- that'swhatI'msaying, K
nobody is going to come upto the front door.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I don'tknow. I mean --
GARY:NO. ~
MR. SCHNEIDER:~- I meanI would have never
thoughtthatwhat happened thismorning wouldhave
92
40
happened.
GARY: I knowit, Iknow it,and it's a
tragedy that we don'twant to see repeated, but I, I--
MR. SCHNEIDER:Gary,boy, I'lltell youwhat --
GARY: Yeah?
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- if, if there is anybody
there, if it does go on again, only this time it
probably will not quit. 1
GARY: Yeah.After we got off the phonelesttime --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
GARY: --I, I, I, Ihad ameeting with theh
the tactical people hereandI,I said Iwas very 1
concerned thatdespite whatthey weretelling meIkeepgetting these reports that there'speople there. Andthey - b
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, no, Jim wastelling mek
the same.Were youthere when Jim wastelling me --GARY: Yeah.
M. SCHNEIDER:-- that there wasfive guys,
couple across,couple acrossthe street by the bushes
and trees,he saidthey sawabout fiveor somethingnear the guard gate. W
GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER:That's whathe asked -- Kevin
l92
Q I
; 41
asked meif that our guys.I says, "We don't have
anybody outthere, no one whatsoever,positively not."GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:And we get sita out there--
GARY: Well, Ihope there's noreporters --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- she looked out there with92
her flashlight,wentrightinto that guardgate anditherewas not a soul there.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:So myself I'm wondering
what's -- just aminute.
GARY: Um-hum.
Gap!
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. I'mglad with Gary
indiscernible! nowhe's tellingme hethinks it mighthave been adog.
GARY: It might have been adog, yeah. I
mean, I, I know everybody is jumpyin there, but I mean
withwhat's gone on there's justno --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, that'swhatI, whatI
figured, you know, and --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and you guysgave your
word, youseem relaxed,you seem,you know,like youwantto resolve it and endit all, well, okay, that'swhatwe're going to do.
I"
92
r
92
K
,_
S
1 42
GARY: Yeah.There's, there'sno -- there'sreally nothing for us to, to gain by trying to E a
surreptitiously -- 4
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
GARY: -- put somebodyup on your front door.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. Doyou mindif I jhstlay downfor aboutahalf hour here? E
GARY: Not at all. y
MR. SCHNEIDER:Thanks. I got a, I'vegotlalittle bit ofa headachehere. §
GARY: Yeah,that's, that'sfine. I hope,Fhope youand Davidhadalittle chance tochat beforeybut --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, actually just got --
you know,there's --you know,now andthen youget a Ephone call and --
GARY: Yeah.
M. SCHNEIDER:-- and I was hoping just to
put my head down just for afew minutes and --
GARY: You'regetting calls from the pressor --
MR. SCHNEIDER:You know,you, you get callsfrom just about everything ~-
GARY: Yeah. .
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- or everybody today. I
mean, youknow, relatives and friends and pressand --
92 .92
92 92 1
iI
92
I
92
sv W
1 43
GARY: It'smadealot of news. 1RMR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, I'msure of that.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Never wantedit to be likethat. .
GARY: No, I don't think anybody did.I _ MR. SCHNEIDER: Ohno, nowayin the worlh,
notat the cost forany -a humanlife, youknow. iI,mean, makesus all sick, everyone of us --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-~ seriously,and-- GARY: Well,I'm hopingthat we can work
together to,to thebest ofour abilitiesto, torightthe wrongsthat -- Y
MR. SCHNEIDER:Right.
GARY: -have takenplace and,andwehave Eto look to the future and say that --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Exactly.
GARY: ~-we just hopethatif you don'tlearn anything from mistakesand -- 5
1MR. SCHNEIDER:Then we'llrepeat thesame1thing.
GARY: That, that it wasawaste, yeah.M. SCHNEIDER:Exactly. N
GARY: But I, I think wecan hopefully allsomehow learnfromthis. Did --I hope - please
QO
A 44
convey toDavid whenyou geta chance after you'vehad
a rest or whatever that,you know, I'vemet with he
tactical people and again-~
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, okay.
GARY: -- addressed your concerns and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
GARY:~ my biggest concern is that the I
press or somebody mightbe looseout there, but I hopethat's not the case --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Right. y
GARY: and it'scertainly not our peopleh
MR. scrmsxnsm Okay. ',
GARY: Okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thank you, Gary.
GARY:All right, Steve - :
I MR. SCHNEIDER:I'm justgoing to just put my
head down indiscernible!.
GARY: -- get, get the rest that you
need ~-
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thanks.
GARY: -- and, and I'll beherewhen you call
back.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I, I really thank you so
much.
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. Talk toyou a little
,,_.
92.
245later. ~
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay, bye.
GARY: Byebye.
Gap!
Dial tone! Phone dialing! Electronic:1Inoises!
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #3:I'm gettingnoringat all. i
Electronic noises.! -
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER#3:There's92
indiscernible!.
9292
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #4:What's that??
Electronic noises! Phone ringing!
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #4:Time is4:28 a.m. Phone ringing! Unidentified malevoicesin background.!
MR. SCHNEIDER:Hello? Hello, is this Gary?GARY: Yeah, Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, Steve.Iheard youwere trying to get a hold of us.
GARY: Yeah.Didn't youhear thephoneringing?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Could youhear metalking or,or anyone else?
GARY: I didn't hear.
~I x
h 46923
MR. SCHNEIDER:You know,the crazythingsrings, wepick it upand there's nothingon it but wecan call out on the stupid thing.
GARY: Oh, is that right?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, I'mnot -- I'm trying
to figure out what'sgoing onhere andIcan't,I dbntknow what,what the phone indiscernible!.
GARY: So,you hear,you hearit ringing andyou pickit upbut -- i
MR. SCHNEIDER:Exactly, and the --
GARY: -- no, I'mnot --
M. SCHNEIDER:-- last timeIeven said let92 »it ringafew times andwe did,picked itupand it's}
like thereis nothingon there.You canhear kindof Elike, youknow,it'slive butyou can'thear anythingI
l
GARY: Yeah. a
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- so I've been-- we'vebeen"r
saying if, if you'rethere try the othernumber and--
GARY: Well,I'm, I'msorry aboutthat,that -- I, I thoughtmaybe thatyou werestill sleepingor whateverand I didn't wantto disturb you.
M. SCHNEIDER: N0.
GARY: Butwe hadareport a little while agoof someactivity outin thefront ofyour placefrom,from yourfolks and,andI was a little concerned about
1 V
O O
i 47
that and I wanted to - I
MR.SCHNEIDER: Well, what kind of activity?
GARY: Well, some movement of somepeople out
near thefront near the front door.
MR.SCHNEIDER: Nobody, no one's beengoing92
out of the building, nobody whatsoever indiscernible!
because rememberbeforewhenwe thoughtthesame thing
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- thatwe thought it might
have beena dog then.Could that bepossible? i
GARY: No, I don'tthink so. I, Ithink the
people on the perimeter saw somepeople movingaroundl
and I~- V
LMR. SCHNEIDER: Well, they wouldn'thave seeh
them move outside the building. No one's beengiven »
permission todo sucha thing--
GARY: Okay .
MR. SCHNEIDER: -nobody.
GARY: Well, I have toaccept your word on
that, and I really -- I hope nobodys doing that
without yourknowledge.
MR. SCHNEIDER: lndiscernible! thedogs --
there's dogsstill running around he says.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR.SCHNEIDER: But nobody from inside this
p
92
F
92
. 48
. »
building, nobody has permission and nobodyhas done
that. In fact indiscernible! now.
GARY: Well, good, because we're, youknow,
we'rekeeping our end of the bargain and, and,and
trying to makesurewe keep alid on, on anyactivity
that mightbe misinterpretedby eithersideasbeing --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Most definitely. V GARY: -- an actof aggression because we
justdon't want that.i
MR. SCHNEIDER:Believe -- I told youwhat1did, I mean that.'
GARY: Yeah. Did you get a chance to get
some, get some rest, Steve? y
MR. SCHNEIDER:I, I wasjust in fact layingl
myhead down- 1GARY: Um-hum. v
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- when ~-about five minutes}X92
ago and,you know, the phonewasringing off and on andi92
we, we were trying to get thatthing straight -- i92 |
GARY2Yé ah . 2
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- andso I finally got to 1
putmyheaddown forabout fiveminutes, yeah. 92GARY: No, that's nottoo much, but did you
and David have a chance to talk aboutsome of the
things we discussed?
MR. SCHNEIDER:A little bit butnot too much
=92 1
w
Q
92
0. ' _ 49
because he seemed -~
GARY: Yeah.
M. SCHNEIDER:- he seemed tobe a little
bit, you know, like tired and -- ~
GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and fading there, so -~
GARY: Yeah,yeah. Hashis, has his physicalcondition deteriorated any?
MR. SCHNEIDER:It doesn'tseem like it.
GARY: Um-hum.He soundedpretty robustwhenI talked to him before-- Y
MR. SCHNEIDER:Right, right.
GARY:which I'm, I'mkind ofamazed atyconsidering his wounds. I mean, that's--
MR. SCHNEIDER:Right.
GARY:--that'sremarkable. But I'd still'
liketo get backto whatwe weretalking aboutbeforegsee if we canget somemore kidsout. That was --I
just watcheda newsshow andthat's playingvery, veryipositively. l
MR. SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
GARY: It'slooked onvery favorably. In
fact, I think they're,they're sayingthere's beeneight kidsreleased, butin anyevent thenews coverageismakingthat outto beavery positive sign.I thinkiit's verygood. Iwas hopingwe canwork ongetting
Q
,
,
92
.I x
g so
SONG more out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah. Maybe could you
-- well, you know, I'll, I'lltell you the truth. Im,
I'm fighting indiscernible! sleep right now --
GARY:Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I'mfighting even, even --
, . .»you know,we havebeen so long without sleep it'slike
it's hardto even keep your mind focused on what's
going on.
GARY: Well, I, Ihear, Ihear some tiredness
in your voice and -
MR. SCHNEIDER:I mean, my, my throat is very
raw.
GARY: AndI, I know it's beenan emotionall
-- you know, gut-wrenching day and all that.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Exactly. I told you I'dlike
to even indiscernible! here just so Ican lean myheadback -- A
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- for just a little while, '
but -- .
GARY:Well, is David available to chat with?i
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, he's,he's likeme at 1the moment, you know --
GARY:Um-hum. 92
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- because we've stayedright
V
92
-
92-
92 ;
L51
with it for all this time and --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- we're just kind of hoping just maybean hour or two we can just lay our heads _ back hereand -- i
GARY: Sure. Well, I don't, Idon't think
there's anyproblem with that, but --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. .
GARY: -- I just wonder if maybe wecould
bring outa couplemore kidswhile youguys aretakingyour nap.I think that wouldbea real positive sigq,Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Indiscernible! to think
about what,you know,what weneed todo. I need to I start getting over hereand waking--
GARY: Well, I know --
M. SCHNEIDER:-- waking them upand --
GARY: Yeah,I know -- well, I know you
indicated earlierfrom whatyou weresaying thatyou 5were reallyinterested inhaving somemore kidsout andI -- ' E
MR. SCHNEIDER:Right.
GARY: --you know,we're certainly--
MR. SCHNEIDER:And that'swhyI said, youknow --
GARY: Yeah.
52
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- we, we want all of them
out, every last one of them. We don'twant any kind of
GARY: Well, we want every, we want every --
of course, everyone isalways concernedabout children,
but we want everybody out --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, yeah, well, that'sthe
thing, you know - 1
GARY: -- don't wantto see anybody hurt. 1
Um-hum. -
MR. SCHNEIDER:You know,start with themaha
make sure that they havetheir chance and --
GARY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- then all of us just to
work this thing out for sure. y
GARY: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we can -- I dont
know, we, we, we could, we could bring you all out if
you'd liketo come out together, that's,that's
somethingthatcould be donetoo. h
MR.scnnsrnsn:Well, that'swhy, you know,iwe needto -- you know,someof these people are so --F
you know,I meanafter all -- you know,we're just--GARY: Um-hum.
_ MR. SCHNEIDER: LikeJim, I thought it was,
you know,a good suggestion justto kind of, you know,
if a person canget their wits about them wecan sit
. :
down and start talking and --
GARY: Um-hum.
? S3
MR.SCHNEIDER: -- you know, there might be
some that want to do this or that or, you know, we
could give them theoffer again and whatever,and --
GARY: Well, why don'twe--
MR.SCHNEIDER: -- see if we can do
maybe a group or --
GARY: Yeah.
you know
v
V
it as -
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- or break it up in parts ifit makes it easier, you know.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR.SCHNEIDER:But right now to just talk toeverybody it's just -- it's kindof hardthat's whyIwe're hopingby the time themorning comes so
get on thephone with you guys again and --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR.SCHNEIDER: -- start talking tohere -- I
GARY: Um-hum.
MR.SCHNEIDER: -- and maybe wecan
out and how wecan go about doing it.
GARY: Yeah, yeah.
MR.SCHNEIDER: You might even have
suggestions orwe mightwork with you onthat
we can 1
0
everybody
work that
SQHIE
OI we
54
might havesome but,you know,we'll go-- IGARY: Yeah,I think we're, we'reopen to,
hear, hearsome ofyour ideastoo becauseI mean 92
ultimately whatever,whatever weagree toit has to be just that, it has to bean agreementbetween, betweenus all. And, youknow, Imean we're,we're open-mito, you know, facilitatingit just about anyway youwant aslong asit doesn'tendanger anybody,we just,
just don'tsee anyneed forthat. There'sbeen enoughblood shedtoday tolast a lifetime and it's justtragic --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Most definitely, most
definitely.
GARY: -- just tragic. So yeah,I'd,I'd
really like you to think aboutthat and we can--
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.
GARY: Youknow, again,we've, we'vegot Aplenty oftime totalk but I think I amconcerned mostpointedly about the children --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Right .
GARY: -- and I just think some ofthese
developments --we were-- it'sa shamethat I guessthe early-morninghours haveintervened herebut --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, tell me. ~
GARY: -- it was -- we, we wereon a --
MR. SCHNEIDER:I wishmyself that,you know,
. 92
I
92
H S5
it would have beena few hours before.
GARY: Yeah, but we --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
GARY: --we wereon kindof I think a nice,a nice progression of,of havingthese kidscome out
and, andit was, you know,certainly -- n
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, Jim indiscernible! dndI was trying to hang in there myself. L
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:He saidhe wasgoing totryhto go-- andhe said-- in fact, hesaid hewas goingto go with me the whole way and-- '
GARY:Well,it's better to have afresh mind. . ,
if you can, but --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, well, I figured if he
knew whathe wasdoing, doingthe samething --GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and then hesuggestedit
for meandIsays, "Boy, Itell you guy -- Isays," -- I'mwith you on that -- "--
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- " -- and you'vegot our
trust andI really do trustyou guys,you've donewell for us." W
GARY: Yeah,Ihope youtrustme now too,Steve.
91l
1
*56
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I do, because, you
know --I
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: ~- you're,you're telling me
the truth and, and so far it looks real good, I like;
that -
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and, you know,we cankeepon working.
GARY: Yeah,you know,itwas just such a i
nice progression, I mean, you know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. .
GARY: -- you alwaysget asked by the bosseé
and soforth, "Howare we doing?" andwe say, "Well,you know --" -
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
GARY: -- "-- we're talkingto reasonable
people that are willing to, to meet us more than
halfway and resolve our differences -- "--
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. ~
GARY: - "-- and, and they have
demonstrated thatby, you know, sendingsome kidsout
which,whichshows that theydon't wantto seeanyone
else hurt," and that'spositive andI'd liketo keepbuilding onthat.And it demonstratestime andagainto, to everybody involvedthat,you know, reasonable
L
r92.
92
Q O
5,57people can, can do reasonable things.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay, Jim, I guess --
GARY: No, Gary, I'mGary.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean --
GARY: Freudian slip, yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah. Okay. I guess I'm
just going to lay my headdown herefor just a littlelbit and --
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- maybe I can get my witshere together and --
GARY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- I, I want to continue
talking with you of course -- X
GARY: Okay .
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- andstart getting the nexttwo -- you know, the names --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- the addressesandphonenumbers, all of that.
GARY:Sure, yeah, havethat stuff ready whenwe talk next --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.
GARY: -- and, and we'll --you know, we can
' 1 _, _
58
do itthe same waywe've done it before of if, if yqu'd
like --
MR. SCHNEIDER:When, when,when will Jim be
about himself do you think?
GARY: I, I, Idon'tknow, but, but I'llbe
hereinthe interim and,and, andwe -- 1
MR. SCHNEIDER:'All right.
GARY: -- can work this out.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay, but, you know, he would
like to talkto Jim indiscernible!.
GARY: Iknow, Iknow he would, Steve, but
I'll tell you itwould meanareal lot to me if he
could, if he could see it to --
MR. SCHNEIDER:No, I realize but, you known
if he's up, you know,we - he would appreciate it, you
know -- H
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - he feels like he'sformedi
afriend with him and --
GARY: Oh, Iknow, but just, just as there's
many people in David'sflock there --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Iunderstand, yeah.
GARY: -- I know he wouldn't, he wouldn't
wantto limit his attention to just one person --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: -- in his flock and --
Y
I
59
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well,can I get back with youthen? I'm, I'm ~-
GARY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER:- boy, I'm havingin there
by athread here.
GARY: Yeah. Well,get some --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: - get some rest and -
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thanks.
GARY: -- and youand Davidtalk about it and
be readywith the next twowhen, whenwecalland we'll>
MR. SCHNEIDER:We definitely will be.
GARY: - and we'llwork it out.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Definitely, Gary. »
GARY: Okay.
M. SCHNEIDER: Thank you, Gary.
GARY: I'mcounting onyou. IMR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER:You won'tbe disappointed.EGARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Bye-bye.
GARY: Bye-bye. _
Gap!
MR. SCHNEIDER:lndiscernible! to me just '
I
92
0
~
I60
now?
GARY: No,it wasn'tme. I'mwondering if
it's theoutside pressor somethingtrying to get in?MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, must be. Wow.
GARY: No,Iwas going to let you call me .back like we agreed.
MR. SCHNEIDER:All right. Okay. Thanks.?
I'm goingto try to closemy eyesagain. Theykeephanding me the phonehere.
GARY: Yeah. Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. Thankyou, Gary.
GARY: Indiscernible! from you, okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. Thanks,Gary.
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay, bye.
GARY: Bye-bye.
Gap! *MR. CUMINGS:Thisis Jim Cummingsfromthe
indiscernible! Administration.
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #5:Uh-huh.
MR. CUMMINGS:Indiscernible!
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #5:Who areyou flooking for?
MR. CUMINGS: Phil Lewis. .
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #5:Phil Lewis?IMR. CUMMINGS:Yeah, theATF agent.
0 i 92 61
Gap!
GARY: Hello.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello.
GARY: Yeah, Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
GARY: How you doing, buddy?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, very - I don'tknow.
GARY: Very, very, you don't know?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, youknow, we'regetting
reports they'rewatching themovement ofthese guysofcourse and itdoesn'tmake anybodyhappy.
GARY: Yeah, I know.
MR. SCHNEIDER:They seethem diggingindown
by the barn, clearly digging in, digging all night.It's --
GARY: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- getting closer to the
trucks and all that business.
GARY: Well, you -- I mean, if they are
digging thenyou knowthat that clearly meansthat
they're not,they're makingany attemptsto, to attaokyou oranything likethat. I mean,they've obviouslygot to maintain perimeter, you know that. 5
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, you know what the
agreement wasthat they'dstay off the property.
GARY: Isthat actually on yourproperty?f
'62
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yes, it is. .
GARY: Becauseit was my understanding that
they would not be on the property itself. '
MR.SCHNEIDER: Well, they are. That'swhat
they're lookingat. .
GARY: Okay.
MR.SCHNEIDER: They're onthe property.
GARY: All right. That'sgetting me mad
because I, I meanI've talkedto them several times
about indiscernible!.
MR.SCHNEIDER: Well, that'swhy Davidand I
were both totally awed by it -- I
' GARY:Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-you know, it'san
unsettling thing because weafter talking to you andJim and everything --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:~- was going fine and we
wanted to- youknow, hereit's cominglight andweire going to want -- I
GARY: Yeah.
MR.SCHNEIDER:-- like to start sendingthekids outsoit wouldn'tbe sucha problem. §
V
GARY: Sure, sure.Well, that, that won't?92
interfere withthat, and,and, youknow, Iwill, I will talk tothem immediatelyafter weget offthe -- f
63
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! if you could
have themget out of there it would be great and wecan
go on with the negotiating.
GARY: Well, I think what, what I had heard
before is, again, I didn't realizethis was on your ,
property, but I heard -they were just concerned about
being exposed out there to sniper fire and so if -- 92
MR. SCHNEIDER:But it'sstill part of what
we told you guys. We let --you know, like -- I
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- earlier in the day we let
you come in and get the wounded and all the rest.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:We werefor you doing thatq
GARY: Um-hum, um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:And in fact, it amazed ushfow
long it actually took you, youknow, wetried to help
you asbest wecould evenin thatsituation. And, and
even with now here you've gotthese guys back here.
We'd reallyappreciate it so we can go on with
negotiating. -
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I mean, it, it would sure 5
make aperson comfortableif we'dstayed like what,
what we agreed to.
GARY: Yeah, yeah.
P
64
MR. SCHNEIDER:There's threeof them, or
whatever thereis out there indiscernible!. j92
GARY: Whereexactly do you seethese guys?
MR. SCHNEIDER:They're, they'rebeing viekedfromtheone side ofthe buildingdirectly overto the-- we call it the shop.
GARY: Canyou give mea --like acompass
heading onthat? .
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, I'mnot looking at 1
anything right now, but it'satthe north side.
GARY: Bethe northside ofthe building-§MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
GARY: -- and there'sa little shed out
there?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: And --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Not reallyalittle shed,from --it's theblock --acement-blockbuilding Ibelieve.
GARY: A cementblock building.
MR. scunmnsmRight. ,> GARY: And,and, andin thatarea you see 1
some guysdigging in? VMR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, theysee themclearly.
They've beenreporting right along. '
GARY: Yeah.
0
V
:65
MR. SCHNEIDER: And there's just too many.
They've beenwatching them. H
GARY: Okay. Well, let, let me --
I MR. SCHNEIDER: They'redigging holes so, you
know --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- whatever they're upto
it's definitely nogood. .
GARY: Okay. Well, again, you know, I'm ndt
trying tomake lightof that, but obviouslyit, youknow, should, should, should tell you that they'rendt
attempting to attack you.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, what it tells me
because I'm just talking -- what'shappening? Who's
moving up to the front of the building? A car?
GARY: Nobody's-- there'sa report of a
moving to the front of the building?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Cars? What do you mean
they're movingto the front of the building? Oh, he's
watching themon 2491.Okay. Butstill, you know, theother thing is clear though that those guys are back.there --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and that was not part o
the agreement. §
GARY:Yeah.
I
as
MR. SCHNEIDER:That's whatwe werereporting
all night long, thatthey didsee theseguys backthereand whatbothers meisyou guys say--then earlier youdidn't haveany informationon thatthat theyshouldn'be there. I -
GARY: Yeah. Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Can Ilet you work thatoutand I'llcall youback? V
GARY: Yeah,I'm goingto look into that,
but, butbefore we,we getback, youknow, inthis -3MR. SCHNEIDER:Let's pickup with that
negotiation, you know, start working onthat
indiscernible!.
GARY: Yeah,you told me when,when you
called meback youwere goingto giveme thenamesofthe kidsthat weregoing tocome outnext. y
MR. SCHNEIDER:What, whatare thenamesofthe nexttwo kidsthatwill be comingout whenwe getthisworked out? _
GARY: Yeah, do you have those? '
Tape 4A, blank!
Tape 5, side A!'
GARY: Goahead andhang up,I'll callyou;right back.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Right.
GARY: Um-hum.
1
f 92
rev
Gap! VDial tone!Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
GARY: It'snot ringing in there. ,
Phone ringing!
GARY: That ain't therightnumber.
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #6:Yeah, I dont
see whyhewouldn'tanswer. Do you want to ask him?
GARY: Heindiscernible! changedhisnumbei, I
he'snot going to know what it is.
Phone ringing!
GARY: I'mgoing to try indiscernible!.
Phone ringing!Dialtone! Phoneringing!MR. SCHNEIDER:Hello, Gary? l
GARY: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. Iguess you'vebeen Y
trying to get a hold of us?
GARY: Yes, it didn'tright after we --
MR. SCHNEIDER:What, whatnumber haveyou lbeen ringing?
GARY: What is this? 863-5663.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Try 5252.
GARY: 863-- I
MR. SCHNEIDER:5252. ,
GARY: --S252. That's thenumberright wheneyou arenow?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes.
/
92
,
}
'68
GARY: Andthat's thesame instrumentwe've
been talking on?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Apparently so. ;
GARY: Okay.I - maybe that's,that's theproblem. _.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I think that has been.
GARY: Yeah,but as far as you knowyour,
your phoneinstrument thereis functioningproperly?MR. SCHNEIDER:Right.
GARY: Youdon't haveany muteswitches onoranything like that?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No.
GARY: Okay.When wetalked I, I sat down .and I talked with the ATFcommanders. I'mnot with I
ATP, right,and Italked withthem. I said, listen,I'm, I'mtalking to Steve andI said we're, we're
getting a,a credibilityproblem here,he's seeingsomepeople outthere. Theyassure methere isnobodythere. Theysaid thereis nobodyinthat house,
there's nobodydigging any-- thebuilding andthere'snobody digging --
MR. SCHNEIDER:All theseguys thoughGary, ;they've alltold methe samething. Whatam Igo --
GARY: No,and, andI'm concernedbecause I,I don'twant tolose mygood faithwithyou. -
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, youknow thetruth is,
69
you know,also, they've-- they observed -- here's an
Army tankover herenow, armoredcarrier vehicle ofsome sort.
GARY: Yeah, yeah. '
MR. SCHNEIDER:There's this,there's that.I mean,what is this going to be World WarIII or what?
GARY:Well,there's a lot of people out here
as you well know and, and, and you'veseen the news andyou know --
MR. SCHNEIDER:I would -- to tellyou the
truth, I was quitesurprised. If anything, Iithought
GARY: Yeah .
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- it would becomeless, not
more, and, and you know -- 1
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- the good faith, I mean--
GARY: Don't,don't misinterpretwhatithatstuff means.The, theway thefederal government
iresponds tothese things-- E
' MR. SCHNEIDER: Well,I do remember reading
aboutthatWeaver story anda numberof otherstpriesI
GARY: Yeah, yeah --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- in the past --
GARY: That'sright.
Q I
70
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- in the past and, you know,it definitely unsettles aperson. Q A
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I knowalot of the people
involved are just peopledoing their job anddon'tunderstand and --
GARY: But, but you have to know --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- then you wonderfrom
what's goingon at the top.
GARY: --in the, in the Weaver casefrom the
moment negotiationsstarted therewasn'tasingle shotfired andthere wasn'ta singleperson hurtafter that
point in time. All the, thedamage donein that caseis exactly like whathappened hereyesterday; it's
when, whenthe violencebroke outin the beginming butonce westarted talking up there it, it worked butin
the bestway thatit could which wasno further»lossof
life. _
MR. SCHNEIDER:So, whatagency areyqu with,Gary? ;
GARY: I'mwith the FBI.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You are?
GARY:Um-hum.y
MR. SCHNEIDER:What? Out of Dallas org --
GARY: No,I'm outof Washington,D.C..
MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, you, you are?
f u
71
GARY: Yeah,I'm fromthe FBI Academy.MR. SCHNEIDER:I see. H
GARY: Yeah. So, I flew out here and I'm,
I'm alittle bit behind interms ofeverything that's
occurred butmaybe, maybethat's anadvantage forme
because Ican getto, to hear fromyou andDavid and,and comeout witha freshapproach and,and that'swhatI want to try to do, Steve. ~
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: And, and like now I --
Gap!
GARY: Areyou still there? Are youstill
there, Steve? Hello? Hello? '
Dial tone! Phone dialing!Phone ringing!Unidentified malevoices inbackground.!Phone ringing!
GARY: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #7:Hello.
GARY: Yeah, Steve?
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #7: No.
GARY: Yes, David.
WAYNE: It'sWayne.
GARY: Wayne?
WAYNE: Yes,sir. _
GARY: Go ahead.
WAYNE: Welost our telephone.
r.
92
GARY:
OD.
WAYNE
GARY:
on now?
WAYNE
GARY:
WAYNE
GARY:
Wayne?
WAYNE
GARY:
now?
WAYNE
GARY:
this phone line
David?
WAYNE
up.
Y 72
Yeah, the,the onewe've beentalking
Yeah.
Okay. Whichnumber areyou callingme
863--
Yeah.
~-5979.
S979. Okay,
Yes, it is
Okay, Wayne
Yes, I can
and you say thisiisA
92 92
Can you hear mefokay
92
Okay. I'mgoing tocontinue tousethen for me to talk with Steve and
Until weget theother onepatphed
GARY: Okay.Do youhave anyidea what'swrong with the other one?
WAYNE: No, sir, I don't.
GARY: Yeah,it gap!it, it almost appeared> likea loosewire orsomething becausewhen Iwas,
talking toStevelasttime it all ofa suddenstartedto, to, to breakup andthen itwent outlikethene's
.73
some kind of, some kind of instrument problem. And we
have enoughother problems today, we don't needbad
telephones. Well, can I talk to Steve again, Wayne?
WAYNE: Let metry and get him.
GARY: Okay, thank you.
WAYNE: I'llkeep the line open.
GARY: Sure, I won'thang up.
WAYNE: Okay.
Pause!
Unidentified voices in background.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #8:The AEFwants
himon the phone down here.
Unidentified voices in background.! l
Electronic noises!
WAYNE: Indiscernible! 92
GARY: Hello?
WAYNE: Steve'sgoing to call you.
GARY: Hello?
WAYNE: Hello? Can you hear me? 1
GARY: Yes, this is Gary. Who is this?
WAYNE:This isWayne. 1
GARY: Oh, hi, Wayne. Did, did -- werd you
able to locate Steve? ,
WAYNE: Steve, Steve has just fixed his§
telephone and gap! --
GARY: Oh.
1 v 92
74
WAYNE: -- give you a call.
GARY: Okay. So you want me to hang up on
this line and he'llcall meup onthe other one?
WAYNE: Yes, please.
GARY: Okay. Thanks a lot. If, if he'snot
able to get throughto mebecause he'sstill having92
difficulty, would, would youhave himcall me§backon,on the line that you're onright now? i
WAYNE: Sure thing. Can you --
GARY: What's that?
WAYNE: -ask Byrontogive me acall?
GARY: Yeah,I'll dothat. Okay. But let's,
let's waituntil I make sureI'm --as soonas I hear
Steve on the other line then I'll, I'llget word to --
WAYNE: Okay.
GARY: - Byrontogive you acall, okay?
But I don't wantto tie youup with Byron if I needto
talk to Steve through,through thisconduit, okay?
WAYNE: Okay, go ahead.
GARY: All right, good enough. I'mgoingto
disengage thenso I can waitfor Steveto call me,
okay?
WAYNE: Yes, sir.
GARY: All right, bye-bye.
Phone ring!
GARY: Hello?
92y
75
MR.SCHNEIDER: Hello, Gary?
GARY: Yes, Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes. -
GARY: I understand from Wayne that you found
some problems with your phone?
MR.SCHNEIDER: Oh, I was talking with you
and of a sudden bang --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- it just went -- n¢ -- it'S
done that all through the night.
GARY: Well, I was scared for a minute that
you'dthinkit was, was me hanging up on you. '
MR.SCHNEIDER: Oh, no, no, I knew it wasn't
that. I indiscernible!.
GARY: Did you replace it with another
instrument or --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, exactly.
GARY: Okay,that should resolve the problem.
MR.SCHNEIDER: I'm hoping.
GARY: You must have had a loose wire or
something like that.- "
MR.SCHNEIDER: I, I think that'swhat it is.
I think it's we'rehaving a wire problem more than
anything. I
GARY: Yeah, yeah. V
M. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I'vegot two children
92
76
here. '
GARY: Gap!looking out the window I see
that we've,we've goneinto what'skind ofa grayday,butit's daylight inany event --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: -- and I'mhoping wecan seeif we can
get Chrissieand Brian. V
MR.SCHNEIDER: David wouldlike - isJim
around? He'dlike to at leasttalk to him.
GARY: Well,as soonas hegets here»Illputhim on,but he'snot herenow andI, I don't kmowwhathis ETA is--
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well --
GARY: -- but I'dreally like to talktoDave.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, that's,that's fine,but,you know, hewould like to talkto
indiscernible!.
GARY: I, I know that and I, I-- 1
MR. SCHNEIDER:Can youtellme anythingabout --can youget someinformation fromsome otheguyswhen he might be returning or -- i
GARY: Yeah,when,when -- yeah, afterwe'vefinished talkingI'llsee, see ifI canfind outwhat
> 92- ~
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.
1
77
GARY: -- what his ETA back here is.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Gary would like to talk with
you. Do you want to talk with him? He wantsto know
what you want to talk about.
GARY: Well, I'd, I'dlike to talk about a
lot of things. I mean, it's just thewholeprocessofnegotiations tosee if wecan talk and resolva our
differences and, you know, I --
MR. SCHNEIDER:He wantsto talk about alot
of things about resolvingdifferences, whateverelse.
David issaying againJim said just talk with mim,<
that's whathe said.
GARY: You know, Steve --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I - look --
GARY: I know. i
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- Gary, I'm ina position
here, that'swhathewas told, you know, I -- V
GARY: Iknow, butI'm, I'malso dependingonyou to --
MR. SCHNEIDER:I realizethat.éGARY: -- to be reasonable andwhat Jim}--
MR. SCHNEIDER: I realize that."
GARY: -- wastalking about when we had --
again, I'mvery clear on this,when -- Y I
MR. SCHNEIDER:Can you-- is thereany maycan youat leastcall himor-- g
rt92
92
; 7 8
GARY: Yeah,I will but I just wantto getone, onething straightbecause Ithink therewas
literal, literal misinterpretation. whenJim saidtalkto me,what--Jim never intendedfor youto3talk onlyto him. What hewas talking
that was going on with Wayne
two separate things going at
confusing. You know, if you
me to do this, this, this is
help you and Imean Ithink i
about was the otherline
and wedidn't wantto have
one point in timeand
trusted Jim, Jim trusted
my job to do this92and to
t's, it'sunfortunate that
everythingthat's gone onthat we haveto sit and, and,and wait on one person.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I know,seeIhave gome92
through thisconversation onnumerous times.
GARY: Yeah.If David --I mean, like3David,
David hastrust in, in thepeople aroundhim and!youknow, I think he had trust in Jim and Jimhas
transferred thatto meand it'sgoingto be hard orme
MR. SCHNEIDER:He wastelling methat Jimhad trust in him and --
GARY: Yeah, well, Ihave trust --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- indiscernible! him. L
GARY: --I havetrust in David,-too, and}
you know,David didn't,David didn'thavetrust untilhe talked to Jim.
79
MR. SCHNEIDER:And Jim told ~- here's his
exact - he says, "Nobody else," is what he said.
GARY: Well, you know, it, it could be hours
before weeven locateJim and,and doyou think gap!.MR. SCHNEIDER:He said it could be hours
before theylocate him. Oh,Iknowyou guysknow wherehe isfor sure,positively right off, I meanespeciallyafterindiscernible!.
GARY: If he waslikeeverybody else herehe
probably went and grabbeda hotel room in town
somewhere, there's just --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Right, I know, butdefinitely
GARY: - there's, there'shundreds andhundreds --
MR. SCHNEIDER:I know youguys wouldknow
where he'sat after indiscernible!.
GARY: Well,I, Idon'tknowwherehe'sat.
MR. SCHNEIDER: They wouldthere.92
GARY: Well,maybe theywould, butagainy youknow, wedon't wantto focusthisall on oneperson.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Just one moment.
GARY: Yeah . 1
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, theywere just letting
us knowaboutwhat you guysgot all out therein thefield and, you know 1
l
80
GARY: Well, it's allon the news, there'sno
secret about all that stuff.
MR. SCHNEIDER:No, I know, I know, they just
-- you know, they're just reporting back asalways.
GARY: Yeah,yeah. Well,you know fromthe
notoriety this has received that there's--I mean
there's justa cast of thousandsout here. Tmeres all
sortsof equipment andpersonnel, it'sa major, it's a
major newsevent and it's out job to --
MR. SCHNEIDER:In that cast of thousands are
there any angels out there?
GARY: Well, I haven'tseen any in the room
where I'msitting, but I'd liketo think there's some
angels over,over everybodyout therein thatcompound.MR. SCHNEIDER:Right, right. k GARY: Andin fact, there's twolittleiangels
I'd liketo see come on out. *
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, that'swhat we,that'swhat we were talking when I -- i
GARY: Yeah. §
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- called you back here.
GARY: I mean, I'dreally -- I think it would
be-- it would help get gap! startedthis morningl I
mean, I thinka lot of good progress was made
yesterday.
M.SCHNEIDER: He sayshe wants to save his
81
strength for Jim.
GARY: Okay. Well, Steve -~
MR. SCHNEIDER:Just a moment, just a moment.
GARY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:He, he said again Jim saidonly with him so --
GARY: No,that's,that'snot what, what Jim
meant and I think you know that, Steve. Jim +
MR. SCHNEIDER: See --
GARY: -- we, we don't workthat way. We
never say -- we never make it all -- '
MR. SCHNEIDER:I didn't-- he wasthe onethat talked to him.
GARY :I know .
MR. SCHNEIDER:I've, I'venever seenhim
like this.If that's whathe heardand said and*thats
what the conversation was about --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- it worked so well.
GARY: Well, I know, and, and haven't,
haven't youand I had sucha good discussion and 5
haven't weworked well together? _
M. SCHNEIDER:There's, there'ssomethinghe's gotto say that I don'thave the ability to do.
The, thereason I'mhere isbecause ofwhatthe manysbeen ableto showwith theBible, the statements he?s
82
been able to produce.
GARY: Are you talking about Jim now?
MR. SCHNEIDER:No, I'mtalking about Davidhere.
GARY: Yeah. Well, you know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: So --
GARY: - David -- before yesterday»David
never knew Jim and never talked to Jim and --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Surely.
GARY: -- yet after he talked to him he found
that he wasareasonable and worthyperson.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, becauseof -- condition
and everythingI'd liketo honor -- yGARY: Well, right.'
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- what he's choosingéhere.
GARY: Well, I'd, I'd,I'd likeyou to have
him -- give him-- have, have anopportunity totalk tome as well. I think --
MR. scrmmnzn:Well, let mecallyou iback
and try to locate him at least. Maybewe canbuhz himon the phone or something --
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- or at least you can tellme something about it. ~ I
GARY: Yeah. I think --
MR. SCHNEIDER:I'llcallyou rightback and,
C
r,
92
92 1
92
83
and -- ' ~
GARY: Yeah, please do because -- at the time
being I'mnot surethat I have, havethe ability to
even call in to you soI'm, I'm-- until we canrectifythat --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, call -- rememerthe5252.
GARY: Yeah,I got that down. I hope -- hesaid -- 863-S979, was that --
MR. SCHNEIDER:That, that'sWayne.
" GARY: Well, that'sthe number he gameme.Which --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm --
GARY: This is --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -5252.
GARY: Okay. You're gap!.
M. SCHNEIDER:Wayne gaveyou the -- whichnumber did Wayne give you?
GARY: I,I wasreading thewrong number,
you're right. :
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: 863-5252.
MR. scrmsznsm Right.
GARY: Okay,I understand. ~ 1
MR. scxmmnsmOkay. Call me back,and if Idon't hearfrom you indiscernible!.
L.
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84
GARY: Okay,but I'd just like to leave --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Indiscernible! minutes?
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: I'd,I'd justlike to leave with one
last thought.I really, really amdepending onyou to,to help me to help David and -
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. Dothis for me andthen let'sget back on the phone.
GARY:Okay.
mi. SCHNEIDER:Thank you.
GARY:Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Good-bye.
GARY: Byebye.
Pause! i
MR. SCHNEIDER:Just like you said baok to
the wireso hegot tiredof it, pulledit allomt andstarted over and --
GARY:Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:--he said it looks prettysolid now.
GARY: Okay.Well, I can hearyou pretygood. h
_ MR. SCHNEIDER: Good,good.
GARY: Yeah,can you hear meokay? 1
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, I can hearyou okay.
5 2sI
' as
GARY: Youknow, I was just -took me a
while to get to the phone,Iwas just getting up to, togo to the bathroom.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, you were? Okay;
GARY: Yeah,but that'sall right. 1I'm withyou now.
M. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Were you able to
contact Jim or find our where he was?
GARY: What,what - I, I went andtalked to
the, thebosses atthe ATFhere andI said, listen,these, thesefolkswouldliketo talk to Jim andtheysaid Jimis backat a motel somewheregetting somerest
and theysaid they,they just weren'tgoing to wakehim
up now,that he'dworked allnight long and theyexpect
him tobe herelaterin the dayand wanthim tobe>
fresh andbe ableto, to help youout and,and they're
not going to wakehim up. AndIhope that, that wecan
work togetherandI'mhere to talk to you. Huh?'
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah,I was justtalking withsomeone Gary.
GARY: Yeah. Ithink that's reasonableif
you,if you look at it. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: David?
Pause! ' '
Unidentified malevoice in background.!=
MR. SCHNEIDER:He's, he'stold methat Jim
8 6
made him give him his word. '
GARY: Well, we've been,we've beenthroughthat, Steve, but --
MR. SCHNEIDER:He saidthat Jim made himgive him hisword.
GARY: Well,I, I hear whatyou're saying.
but I mean, youknow, that's,that'swhatthe bosses
have decided.Now, wecan, wecan keeptalking likethis all day longand it'snot goingto changethe
situation. Youknow, Jimwill beherelater today andwe canget him back in touch with you andthat, that
shouldn't bea problem.But I don't thinkwe should
waste thisprecious timeand,and not proceedwith, you!
know,the mutually beneficialthings thatI hopewe canaccomplish, andI thinkthat makes senseto you! Steve.
We've, we'vetalked enoughnow throughthe night» Ithink youknow whatI'm sayingis, is true and honestand I, I just don't wantthis opportunityto passwherewe canget -- 1
MR. SCHNEIDER:Tell Jimto give us a call assoon ashe getsthere then. E
GARY: Well,that could, that couldbe prettymuch laterin theday. §
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, he-- that'swhat he just said. l
GARY: Well, I, I think that'san
87
unreasonable position, don't you?
MR. SCHNEIDER: N0, I don't.
GARY: Well, could I talk to David about it?
MR. SCHNEIDER:He said Jim mademe give my
word. He says, I can't goback on it, Ican'tbreak
it. 92
GARY: No,Jim, Jim, Jim didn'tsaygive your
word thatyou won'ttalk to anybody else.What Jimwastrying to say--
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I, I --
GARY:-- and he did say very --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Were you there? Were you
there when he was talking?
GARY: Yes,I was, I was,and what Jim said
is he didn't --he hadwantedto talk on one line, not
both lines, he didn'tsay you have mysolemn wordyou
can only talk to me and nobody else, that didn'ttake
place and you know that.
MR. SCHNEIDER:No, I did hear him. vkpu know
that he told menumerous times,Gary, heactually did,
that he saidthat he wouldstay with usright through
the night. t
GARY: Well, he, he -- and he did,he stayed
until2 o'clock inthe morning,but, you know --;i
M. SCHNEIDER: Well, so didwe, you know.
GARY: Oh, I, I know you did,but, butj
C
,
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Q
92 88
again, youknow, you're,you're insidethere;and, andyou were able hopefully to get some rest.
MR. SCHNEIDER: lndiscernible!
Pause!
MR. SCHNEIDER:Jim madeapromise?not to do
anything withouthim. Hesaid he'sgoing tokeep that.GARY:What,what would happenif Jim was in
acar wreck andhe waskilled, that means wecouldn't
solve this problem, wecouldn't talk? I
MR. SCHNEIDER:No, buthe's not,you know,and indiscernible!.
GARY: Well, I know that, but, but I mean
stop tothink aboutthe logicof thewhole thing,Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I am. A
GARY: Youknow, doyou think Jim, Jm --
MR. SCHNEIDER:I am indiscernible!.
GARY: -- would --
relationship he did with you
say, well, you know, I can't
over to any schmuck here and
MR. SCHNEIDER: NO,
matter is though he wantsto
indiscernible! --
GARY: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: --
Jim would develop the
and just walk awayéandE
be herebut I'll turnthis
hopefully hedoes dkay?
the, the truth ofither
follow through
hebeganwith the person
,-92
92
Q O
89
that stated indiscernible! he stated --
GARY: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- he gave him hisiword and
he wants to follow through on that. '
GARY: Um-hum,um-hum. Well,you khow,if I
call Jim up at the hotel and Jimsays -- he givesme
permission totalk to David, that'llsuffice thenI, Ipresume?
MR. SCHNEIDER:No, tellhim exactly whatwe're saying, that --
GARY: But --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- David wants tocommunicate
with himbecause hegave himhis wordon thatand --GARY: Steve,that's notgoing tohappen, and
i
I meanI hopelateron we canbring Jimdown herebut,you know,I, I think, I thinkwe'reletting an-opportunity --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Why don'tyou call him andtalk to him?
GARY: Well,I don'thavehis number orI --I can find it later on, but that'snot the issue. Theboss ofthe ATPhas, hasmadea -- made hisdecisionhereand hesays he's notgoing tobe pullingJim down.Jim's notthe only one you'regoing to -- '
MR. SCHNEIDER:Gary, you'retalking aboutall these liesand so forth on both sides --
90
GARY: Yeah .
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and you're talkinglikethat. "
GARY: Andthat's whywe, that'swhy weshould get down to business.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I think you're unreasonable,Gary.
GARY: What'sunreasonable with that
position, Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Because ofwhat the man
stated, andDavid gavehis word.He, hehimself saiddon't dealwith anyonebut myself,hesays I'll workwith you right on through --
GARY: It's, it's because --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and then he said -F at the
very endhe says, well, youknow, I'mgetting tiredandso are you, why don't youbreak until tomorrow, we'll
pick this up when-- in themorning sometime.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:So of coursethemorning'scome and -- -
GARY: Well,you know,this is veryfrustrating, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER:He, hewent tobed at what,2:00? Well, here it is --
GARY: No,he,he left here at 2 o'clockand
92
l
QO91
-~ 2:30.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well,you know, I, you know,
I continued to talkwith you, I didn't goto bed or
anything.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I, I sat here. .
GARY: Neitherdid 1, I stayed upallnighttoo..
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, wereyou up through theday?
GARY: Yes,I was. I haven'tslept for about
32 hours. V
MR. SCHNEIDER:Wellthen you're inthe sameballpark -
GARY: Yeah,I'm, I'mvery tired, bud, you1know, I think we'veletsomething artificial here
reallydestroy agreat opportunity for us to, to make
some progressand I'mvery disappointedin that,And
I'm hereto talk to you,I'm hereto helpyou, I'mhereto, to -- I
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well,that -- g
GARY: - enable us to resolve this situation.
MR. SCHNEIDER:You heardwhat I justisaidthough --I
GARY: I heard.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- the whole thing.p
92
1
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92
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92
GARY: I know, and, and I can't doanything
about that. The, the boss of the ATFhas said he's nOt
going to wake upJim and,and he'sgoing to let him
have his rest and that's hisfinal decision --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, well --
GARY: -- but -- '
MR. SCHNEIDER:-» I guess we'll talkto youlater then.
GARY: Okay.Well, I'llbe here for you, you
know. Imean, we needto talk andI think you knowthat and I think David does.
M. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes?
GARY: There's-- don'tyou agree with whatI'm saying?
MR. SCHNEIDER:No, becauseI've gotto agreewith him because I,Iheard fromadistance the
conversation. Iheard him talking with
indiscernible!. I
GARY: Oh,I, Iheard it here, but youlre,
you're misinterpretingthe wholething. y
MR. SCHNEIDER:I've gotto go by what he
heard andwhat heunderstood clearlyfrom theman.GARY: Well, I--
MR. SCHNEIDER:I've gotto goby theman --
Q
' .
92
93
GARY: - I know, and I'mgoing -- I'm --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- gave him his word and he
says theyhad a, they hada deal and theyboth had --
they hadan agreementand hewants toabide bythat andfollow itright on through just it was from thebeginning.
GARY: Yeah,yeah. Well, I'm sorry--
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
GARY: - indiscernible! I mean wewere
ready to, we wereready toget Chrissieand Brianout
and Ithink it's-- they'rethe onesthat aregoing tobe the victims of thisnow. It's unfortunate.}We're
ready. It'sa fresh, new day.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Why wouldbe the, the,victims
of what, Gary? "
GARY: Well, because you want to get them
out. You'veasked us to help you get them out.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, what,whatare youtalking about? They'd bethe victims of what?
GARY: Well,they're theone whoare npt
going to get the opportunity to come outis what I
meant. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, they will have the
opportunity to come out.
GARY: Yeah.Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Positively.
1 94
GARY: -- as soonasyou wantto do that I'll
be hereto, to help youwork it through, youknow,really, Steve --
2"». v___
MR. SCHNEIDER:He says we're goingtosending them all out as
a Buzz.
soon as you get Jim do give us
GARY: Well,I don'tknow whenthatfs goingto be. We're readyto do this in the way--
MR. SCHNEIDER:He's readyto do it justlikewe agreed and that's --
to --
GARY: Okay.
understand, okay --
MR. SCHNEIDER
calling usall the time
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER
we're --and we'vetold
GARY: Um-hum
MR. SCHNEIDER
if, if you'd likeyou want me
I want to make sure I
You know, there's press
-- and they ask us about how
them honesty --
-- right along you guys have
bent over,you've doneextremely wellwith us--GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER
we've workedwith you.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
-- you'veworked withus,
And, you know, he understood
it that way; I can't,I
»GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
95
can't --
-- take thatfrom him, you
know, Gary, between you and I, I can't.
. GARY: Iknow,
MR. SCHNEIDER:
deal, I didn't.
GARY: But you know, the way, the
works with us, the system doesn'tdepend on
it just doesn't workthatway, and I, and I
understand that
MR. SCHNEIDER:
this which is so crucial
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
I -_
He's theone that worked the
way it
one person,
thhnkyou
Well, in asituation like
to so many lives and --
-- and so much is atstake --
GARY: Do, do you think I'm going to do
something --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: -- that
the children?
MR. SCHNEIDER:
put words into my mouth,
GARY: NO, no,
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: I know,
to conclude if you --
-- indiscernible!.
would jeopardize your life or
Did I say that, Gary? ;Dont
I know I didn't -- Y
I'm not.
-- say that. y
but that's-- what,whaq am I
I MR. SCHNEIDER:
have to, that --
GARY: -- feel
MR. SCHNEIDER:
96
You can conclude what you
like that I --
-- I told you exacthy -- you,
you understand what I said and --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
from that. GARY:
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
between two men. Why --
word gap!.
-- you know, I, I can'tsway
Well,what, what --
The agreement was made --
I'm hearingyou say --
-- the agreement was made
he doesn'twantto break his
GARY: Well,Jim, Jim --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
been definitely going on
GARY: I know,
that Jim made Jim didn't
Got a trust thing nowit's
but all, allthe agreements
make. They have to be made
and approvedby theauthorities,that's the wayit works here.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And he said thathe had that,he let us know that he had that.
GARY: Yeah,that's right.He has that and I
have it. I have the authority to makethose decisionstOO.
M.SCHNEIDER: In fact, we -- you know,
97
right - we'd beenworking withhim forquite a longtime andhe hadbeen atthat time working withall the
different agenciesand weheard himtalking with them
and workingwith themand everythinghas been,youknow, going very well.
GARY: Yeah. Well, I, I think you understood
the pointI'm making,that, youknow,whenJim;talkedto Davidand, andJim wouldthen goto the ATF*leaders
and, and,you know,I'm, I'mherehelping themgat theirrequest. Andtheymade adecision. They wouldsay
yes, Dave-they would sayyes, Jim, you, youtan do
that. So it was their authorityuponwhich Jim made
those decisions.Now they'vegivenmethat authoritynow and,and I'm,I'm, I'm,I'm confidentthat wecanwork thisout together. y
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, I'mconfidentthatindiscernible! --
GARY: Yeah,we -you andI've hadsome niceconversations.
»
MR. SCHNEIDER:--go along asthe agreementwas madethere willbe noproblems andeverythinggwillwork out just fine, I really believethat.I, Ibelieve you do -- '
GARY: Well -- 92
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and I, and I hope so onour side. A
<
t
,
92
98
GARY: Yeah,yeah, thenI don'tkndwwhy wecan't proceed.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, wecan proceedas soonas he- justgive himalittle more restand we'llgetright atit. It'llgive mea chancemyself, youknow,I've onlyhad --why don'tyou laydown yoursalffor anhour or two indiscernible! ~
GARY: Well, let me ask -~
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- giveme anopportunity tobe a little more fresh --
GARY: Yeah.
M. SCHNEIDER:-- andto talk and soforth.
GARY: Let,let meask yousomething, Steve,if I may --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Sure.
GARY: --since, sincewe've, we'vegqtalittle time here to talk.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, youknow, I'vegotaterrible splittingheadache tobe honestwith you.
GARY: Well,I know,but -you saidyouwanted Jimto comehere. Now,you saidyou were;goingto letall thekids goif Jimcame? Isthat,is thatwhat you indicated?
MR. SCHNEIDER:We saidright fromthe verybeginning -- ;
GARY: Yeah.
92
99
MR. SCHNEIDER: ~~ that'swhat was worked
out, that by twoby-two they're goingto come right on
out indiscernible!.
GARY: How, how many kids do we have in
there?
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, we - I donft
believe we came up with a number.
GARY: Yeah. You, you don't knowhow many
kids are in there?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I don'tright off.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Like he said, there's.quite a
few.
GARY: Like what kind of ball park figure? I
have no idea.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I, Idon'teven know right
off, Ireally don't.
GARY: I mean, is it a hundred? -
MR. SCHNEIDER:No, there'snot that many.
GARY: Yeah. I mean, Ihave no idea, yeah.
I mean --
MR. SCHNEIDER:But he will -- you know,
he'll giveyou that figure, he'll-- we'llgo gea
head counthere sometimein between and, and make§sure
we have all that. I need to still get the names bf
some of these people. They've notall been around in
I
100
the sameplace andinstead -- you know,I meanwhen I
got off the phone I was actually attempting to lay down
to try to recover a little energy --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- here, butI mean the
phone --
GARY: Well, how --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- you know, the thingkept
on ringing and then no one'son it, butthey probably
were on it butI don't --who knowswhat wasgoing on
indiscernible!. .
GARY: Yeah, apparently your, your phohe
there was having some problems. R
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, I mean, the, thething
never stopped ringing, you know, and didn'twantto
actually take it off the hook because, you know,iit, it
seemed like it worked once or twice --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- you know, it was strange.
GARY: Well,we got it going now apparently,
yeah. Well, youknow,maybe if, if, if you got aé
headache andyouwantto lay downfor a while mayhe I
couldtalk to David. Maybeif I talked to David or a while he -- '
MR. SCHNEIDER:He's layingdown rightnbw,you know, after all this timehe has -- 5
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GARY: Yeah. j
MR. SCHNEIDER:I'd liketo tell you the
truth, man, I'd justlike to lay my head back here a
littlebit and --
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Can you - I mean, if he --
how long do you think he'sgoing to sleep?
GARY: I, Idon'tknow. Imean ~-
MR. SCHNEIDER: If he, if he went to bed
about 2 o'clock orthereabouts, you know, itcan'tbe I
too far awayfrom,you know,thattime, you know,eight
hours later, or even six, seven hours, huh?
GARY: You know, he -- the last timeI saw
him was2:00, 2:30 whenever it was heleft here and I
don't knowif he wentto briefings after heleft here
or what timehewent to bed, I, I don't know.But this
wholeissuedoesn'trevolve aroundJim,that'swhat I'm
trying to tell you.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I'll, I'lltell you what, you
know, I'mso -- the truth is I'mjust,you know, can
you tell I'm tiredand justso worn? I
indiscernible!.
GARY: Well, I'm,I'mtired too and I'll,and
I'll tellyou whatmore thanthat, Steve, I'm just
really disappointed that we've,we've cometo a, a roadblock on this issue.
492
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MR. SCHNEIDER:Indiscernible! look it,
everything -give it a little time, you know, don'trush it and push it indiscernible!.
GARY:Well,I'll, I'llbe here and it's,it's - it'llbe that --
MR. SCHNEIDER:You know,we've shownto youi
already, we'venot doneanything,you,you can keep" your eyeon us,we'll the doing thesame, youknow,let's havea little trust.
GARY: Well, well, we do.
MR. SCHNEIDER:We're goingto get this --
we're goingto actuallyget this thing workedout.Imean, we,wemean that. We'regoing toworkit righton through. j
GARY: AndI thinkyou'veseen that on ourside.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I do, so you know--
GARY: Everythingwe've toldyou is true,wehaven't,wehaven'tdone anythingto, to, to -- i
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.So let's, let'skeepthe relationgoing, youknow,but if you,if youcould
just giveme a-- boy,I'd loveto just, youknow,layback maybefor anhouror two. If, if youguys -- ifyoulaid down yourselffor just twohoursorsomething. .
GARY: Um-hum,okay.
103
1 MR. SCHNEIDER:You sound tired, I mean, I'll
2 tell you, if you can'ttell I am,you know, my; my
3 mouthis dry, I'm-- my throat is hoarse --
4GARY: Um-hum.
5. M. SCHNEIDER: -- I got.a terrible headache.
6 It's,it's justso hard to communicate, it is --
7 GARY: Um-hum.
8 1 M. SCHNEIDER:-- it'svery hard. You know,
9 I meanI'm,I'mreally having a real hard time,I am, I
10 can'temphasize that enough.
11 GARY: Yeah, yeah. You dosound tired.
12 MR. SCHNEIDER:Iam, I'm wornout.
13 GARY: And yousoundlike you'vebeenthrough14 a lot of stress and Iknow it's adifficultsituation
15 .inthere for everybody. MR. SCHNEIDER:
16 Well,can you giveme - maybeinthe mean timewhy
17 don'tyou -- Gary, I'd,I'd reallyeven like to have
18 you get some rest yourself.
19 GARY: Um-hum.Well, I'll,I'll be here when20 you guys --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Indiscernible! don'tyou
~ havea cot or a bedor something youcould just kindof
23 lay down there nearby or --
24é GARY: Well, no, Iappreciate your concern
»25 and,you know,I'll,I'll,I'll be okay andI'll --I just --
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MR. SCHNEIDER: I really don't mindworking
with you and talking with you now.
GARY: Well, I'mglad to hear you say that,
Steve and I've, I'vekind of felt since last night --
MR. SCHNEIDER: It's not --
GARY: --that you and I got along very well.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, we have, Imean,
there's no, there's noproblem there.
GARY: Sure, and I just -- I'm,I'mkind of
depending on you to explain that to David and I, I --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I will, but, you know, even
right now he's not-- even like mehe'snot with it,
you know, it's, it's just difficult and --
GARY: Yeah. Okay, well, listen let's do
this: I'll let you get a little, little rest.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, Ireally -- I, I--
GARY: And I, I'll be here, if --in --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: - the event that I do lay down for a
minute when you ring if somebody else answers --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. .
GARY: -- they'll comeand get me.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I think it should work now if
you ring 863-5252, Ireally believe it will.
GARY: You want to make one more test on it
real quick?
O O
105
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, would you dothat?
Just give me acall right back. '
GARY: Okay. If, if you don'thear my ring
-.-
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, just call you back.
GARY: --in a few minutes, you call me right
back, okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Iwill do that.
GARY: Okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: :Okay. I'll dothat.
GARY: All right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Call me right away.
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, bye.
GARY: Here we go.
Dial tone! Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
Phone company call error signal.!
TELEPHONE OPERATOR: I'm sorry--
Dial tone!
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #9: They've done
this again indiscernible!.
GARY: They have corrected the problem and
you should --
Dial tone! Phone dialing! Dial tone!
Unidentified male voice in background.!
Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
.1016
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello?
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Gary, great.
GARY: Okay. Now, that connection is
working.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That makes me feel alot
better.
GARY: Well, metoo because gap!.
MR. SCHNEIDER;Because that'sbeen a real
problem all through the night.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Itreally bothered me.
GARY: Me -- bothered me too.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: Gap! Steve, listen --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Gap! good, just give mealittle -- oh, man --
GARY: Okay. Give me, give me, give me a
ring when you rest up alittle bit.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Youmakesure you get some
sleep soyou -- you know,you're, you'reabout thesameplace I'm at here.
GARY: Okay. That soundslike a fair deal.
MR.SCHNEIDER: Gap! thanks Ji-- thanks
Gary.
GARY: Okay, Steve.
5 2
!
IQ7MR.SCHNEIDER: I said Jim, didn't I?
GARY: No, no, you started to sayJim but --
MR.SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: -- you said Gary, that's fine.
MR.SCHNEIDER: Okay. Okay. Talk to you in!a bit.
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Bye.
GARY: Bye-bye.
Dial tone!
GARY: Isit recording now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER#10: Yes.
GARY: Timeis -- we just completed thephonecall at 8:12 a.m.on --
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #11:Good morning.
GARY: Good morning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #11:IS Pat McGheethere?
GARY: I'msorry, sir, he's notat this
number. Areyou trying to get the -- where is ourother number here?
Electronic noises! Dial tone! Phone
dialing! Phone ringing! -
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Hello?
GARY: Yes,mayIspeak to David or Steve?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Okay,who's
this?
moment.
108
GARY: This is Gary.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Gary, wait one
GARY: Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: David? Okay.
Go get Steve. It's Gary.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay. We're
getting him right now.
on hold.
GARY: Okay.
Pause! Electronic noises!
GARY: What's that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #12: It'Sa hold.
GARY: Oh, is that a hold?
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #12: They put you
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Did you enjoy
that music? It was, it was a mistake.
itself.
GARY: Where did that comefrom?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: The telephone
GARY: Oh. Who amI talking with?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:' Huh?
MR. GARY: Who isthis? . -
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Who is this?
GARY: Yeah. I'm, I'mGary.
f92
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K.
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92
find out s
wasn't t TY
be friendly.
right now.
get Steve.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:
oon enough gap!
i
109
well, you'll
GARY: Okay. Well,that's fine. I,I, I
ing to be intrusive, I was jus
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:
GARY: Somebody going to get S
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:
GARY: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:
GARY: Great. Thank you very
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:
Pause!
MR. SCHNEIDER: H8110, Gary?
GARY: Yeah, Steve?
M.SCHNEIDER: Yeah, in fact
laying downthere.
from Wayne
GARY: Oh, Wayne, Wayne -- we
,he wanted me to call you.
MR. SCHNEIDER
GARY: Yeah,
MR. SCHNEIDER
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER
Oh, really?
t was trying to
Yeah, well --
teve or Dave?
They are, yeah,
They've gone to
much.
Sure.
I was just
got a message
I was told to give you a call.
No kidding?
Well, I don't know. Didyou
I I
3
?
get ahold of Jim?
11b
GARY: No, no, we'restill inthe same
situation. They want him to rest for a while, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, it sounds good, I don't
blame them.
GARY: Well, you know, I'm goingto be gap!.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I have gap!.
GARY: I'mnot going to tell you something
that, that'snot goingto happen,but did you, did you
-- you sound like youmighthave just gottenup.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
like 10 minutes ago --
GARY: Yeah?
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Well, I, I just laid down
- and then I heard my name
being called thatI was togetto the telephone.
GARY: Oh.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
just goingto pass out.
So I
GARY: Yeah, well, I
didn'twant to disturb you. I
hear from you but then --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
GARY: - then I got
said --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indi
was just goingto, I was
was, I was going to -- I
was goingto wait to
the word that,that
scernible! we called --
GARY: -- call, call David or Steve.
l92
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MR. SCHNEIDER: Ch, boy.
GARY: Maybethat'samisunderstanding from 1
our other phone.
MR. SCHNEIDER: YES --
GARY: Idon't know.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- that could be. I think I'm
going to lay down if you don't mind.
GARY: Sure, that's fine.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Lay back down here alittle
bit here.
GARY: Yeah, have you had -- you and David
had achance to talk anymore aboutwhat we talked
about?
MR. SCHNEIDER:No, because -no, he's been
laying down here.
GARY: How, how -- is his condition any
worse?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, it'sthe same.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:You know,he, he never gotany sleep so --
GARY: Yeah, yeah. Does he have -- Ithink I
might haveasked youthat but Ican'trecall whatyoutold me. Does hehave medicationsthat he needs or --
MR. SCHNEIDER:He's okay,yeah--
GARY: Yeah, yeah.
Q I
112
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- everything'sfine. Yeah,»
he's, he'sall right. Thanks for asking. i
GARY: And Chrissie and, and Brian are, are,'
are still ready to come on out?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, they will be ready.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:He wants -- but, you know, as
soon as you can --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- call him or talk to him
which will give me a few moments to --
GARY: Yeah. Well, we're,we're ~-youknow --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- reviving here.
GARY: Yeah. We're, we'reready to, to
receive them at, you know, anytime you want --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Right, okay, good.
GARY: -- like I told you before.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, once we start the
process we'll just keep on sending them out.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:You know,there's, there'snoproblem there at all.
GARY: Yeah, yeah. W
MR. SCHNEIDER:He just wants that assurance
and I, I knowwe can just keepright on going.
f 1
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Q;.' 11,3GARY: Yeah, you know, and that, that
looks -- obviously you know the extensive media.
coverage and,and whenthey're seeingthe kids come out
like it, it makes everybody feel that the situation --
MR.SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: -- has gotten safer and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: -- that reasonable people can,can
come to reasonable solutions --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Right. Gary --
GARY: -- and that makes mefeel good.
MR. SCHNEIDER:- I'mgoing to go - if you
don't mindI'm goingto go lay down for --
GARY:No, that's fine. Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thistime I'm
definitely -- yeah, what?Okay. Yeah,I'm goingtolay down and --
GARY:Okay.
MR.SCHNEIDER: -- I definitely will be
talking to you just shortly.
GARY: Okay. ,
MR.SCHNEIDER: Okay? ,
GARY: That sounds good.
MR.SCHNEIDER: Thanks, Gary. -
GARY:Uh-huh. g
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay, bye.
1 1l
,
Gary?
phonetic
"114
GARY: Bye-bye. T
Pause! Electronic noises! Phne fin9$9
MR. WILKERSON: Yes, who is this?
ROBERT: Thisis Robert. Are you calling for
MR. WILKERSON:No, I'mcalling for the C.P.
ROBERT: Who is this, please?
MR. WILKERSON: This is Bob Wilkerson
sp.!.
ROBERT: Andwho are you calling for, sir?
MR. WILKERSON:Anybody out there with a
supervisory rank.
GARY: Hello?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Hello, Gary?
GARY: Yeah, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Did you get any rest?
GARY: I'm afraid not.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I'm afraidI didn'teither.
GARY: You didn't?
MR. SCHNEIDER: NO.
GARY: Oh gosh, well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. So --
GARY: --we're justgoing to have totroopit out between the two of us here and --
then?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Sowhat'shappened withJim
115
GARY: Well, there's no -- been no change in
that. I'm hoping we'regoing to be able to locate him
soon but again, Itold you Imet some resistance from,
from gap! can you hold me a second?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Sure.
GARY: Sorry, I had something in my throat.;
You know, I'm stillgetting some resistance in terms
of, of them wanting to, to bring him rightaway, but
he'll behere later. I don'tthink there'sany
question about that.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. _
GARY: I'm,I'm hopingwe can do that. But
I'd like to get --
' MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, what kind of time do
you think we're lookingat here?
GARY: I, I, Iwouldn'twant to pin down on *
a, on a time and then disappoint you lateron, but I'm,
I'm hopingwe can get him here pretty soon and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: - and we'llmove forward. But in the>
mean time I'd liketo, you know, proceed where we were 1
when we left off and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Which was?
GARY: Well, we were talking again about the
two little ones andseeing whatwe coulddo to try to
arrange getting them out which I thinkis, is in
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keeping withwhat youfolks wantedand we'dlike to,"
we'd liketo accommodatethat. ' h
MR. SCHNEIDER:Hang on just a minute, Gary.GARY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Just got another call here.
Just a minute.
GARY: Yeah, okay.
Pause!
Unidentified male voice inbackground.!
GARY: He still on the phone?
Unidentified voices in background.!
Electronic noises.!
GARY: Hello?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Hello, Gary?
GARY: Yeah, Steve? V
MR. SCHNEIDER:Apparently, doyou haveitsowe can'tcall anywhere on the telephone or --
GARY: What's that?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Has our phone been -- have
you donesomething tothe operatorwhere wecan't call
but yournumber? VGARY: Yeah,I think they've,I think they've
captured thephone lines,you know,that's a-- kind dfa normal procedure they do out there on that stuff.
Have, haveyou just tried thatand it's notworking?-
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yes. I was supposed tocall
.
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92
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someone gap!here and of course Ican'tget out to l
anybody but yourself.
GARY: Yeah gap! this, this just happened?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Just happened, yeah.
GARY: It's,it's-- I mean, Iwasn'taware
of that, but it'snormally somethingthey do in most of
these situations.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, Iguess I got to --
I'll haveto call you back now indiscernible!.
GARY: Well, I'm herenow.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
to you now. We got to -
goes on you guys-- look
all. I'll tell you what
GARY: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
I
I
Well, I'mnot - Ican'ttalk
this is bad. I mean as time
this is really not good at
I'm nothappy.
I'll talk to you when Ihave
discussed it with someothers here. Bye.
GARY: Okay.
Phones hung up!
GARY: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #13: Is this I
indiscernible! airport?
GARY: Yes,it is, but this number isnot ;
being usedfor airport business today.You maywantItotry sap! - I
Dial tone! Phone dialing! Phone ringiqg!
C
11a
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #2: H6110?
GARY: Yes,this Gary. MayIspeak to Steye?UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #2:Just a A
moment, please. -
GARY: Thank you.
Pause!
Unidentified female voice in background.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #2:Gary?
GARY: Yes? ;
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #2:He's Onthe
other phone talking to someone else.
GARY: Okay. Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #2:Gap! youwant to hold on just aminute?
GARY: Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #2:Okay.
Pause!
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #14:I put that
number onthe top of the indiscernible!.
Unidentified voices in background.!
Pause! _y
UNIDENTIFIEDMALESPEAKER #15: Hey, this isJim. Ihope indiscernible!.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #2:COming?He's coming.
GARY: Okay, thank you.
C
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Pause!
UNIDENTIFIED
wants to come out.
Pause!
119
MALE SPEAKER#15: somebody
Unidentified voices in background.!
UNIDENTIFIED
what's takingso long,
you back?
GARY: I can
FEMALE SPEAKER#2: I don't know
Gary. Do you want him to call
hold for a bit. Do, do you
think he'llbe here shortly or --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER#2: I don't
know. I wasn't theone thatwent tocheck tosee wherehe was so --
GARY: Okay.
come back to this area
to call me up?
UNIDENTIFIED
GARY: Okay,
UNIDENTIFIED
GARY: I'll,
from him, okay?
UNIDENTIFIED
right. Bye-bye.
Okay. You, you expect him to
and then you'll, you'lltell him
FEMALE SPEAKER#2: Yeah.
why don'twe do that then?
FEMALE SPEAKER#2: Okay.
I'll sithere and hope to hear
FEMALE SPEAKER#2= Okay. All
Unidentified voices in background.!
Tape 5, side B!
Phone rings!
f
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UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #16: Hello, Pat?
GARY: Who are you trying to reach, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #16:Pat McGhee?
GARY: He'snot at this number today and
won't be.You may want to try gap!.
Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3: Hello?
GARY: Yeah, this is Gary again. I was
waiting for a call from Steve. Did --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3: Just a
minute, just a minute.
GARY: Sure.
Unidentified female voice in background.!'
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3:Can YOUSée
if Steve can cometo the phone? Gary.Tell him it'sGary.
Unidentified male voices in background.!
Pause!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3:Pick up yqur
phone. He'sstill not able to come tothe phoneatthis time.
GARY: Okay.Does --will he be comingto;the phone in a little bit or -- ~
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3:Hopefullyv
Like Isaid, I just sentthe message tohim. Ididnt
go myself. K
121
GARY: Uhhuh. He's notin the area whereyyou are now? A
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3: No.
GARY: Okay.Well, wouldyou just tell hidthat Gary called and --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3:Okay.
GARY: -- he knows how to reach me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3:All right.1
GARY: Thanks a lot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER #3:Okay, bye.GARY: Bye-bye.
Phones hungup! Phone rings.!
GARY: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #17=Hello, is i
this Pat?
GARY: No. Pat gap!.
Pause! Phone ringing!
GARY: Hello?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Hello, this is Steve
Schneider.
GARY: Yes,Steve, this is Gary again. *
MR. SCHNEIDER:Gary, howare youdoing withgetting Jim?
GARY: Well, there's beenno changein, inthat.
MR. SCHNEIDER: There hasn't?
122
GARY: No.
MR. SCHNEIDER:And it'sabout 5:00going onfive to 2:00?
GARY: Yeah, I've got 1:53.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
GARY: Yeah.
M. SCHNEIDER: So, what, what, what'staking
place, because we wanted to get the process going again
and --
GARY: Well, like I told you, we're, we're
ready to start the process and we have been all day '
long.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Obviously, you know, I was
just on the other line, aphone call came through, I
was able to talk with them.
GARY: Uhhuh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And they asked me to call
them back and now that line's been cut.
GARY:Yeah.
M. SCHNEIDER: I'm --
GARY: I, I thought you told me the lines I
were cut earlier?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, they -- all of them 1
were. I didn't realize there was one last one. Y
GARY: How many lines do you have inthat '
place?
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MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, with -- Idon't -- l
should I -- you probably already know because none --
GARY: No, I'm --
- MR. SCHNEIDER: -- of the are working now.
GARY: -- I'm wayback over here at the
airport. I don't --
M. SCHNEIDER: Gary, I'mgoing to tell you,
I'm, I'm-- I can understand-- we have -- look, they
asked meabout you guys, I mentioned your name andI
mentioned Jim.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:And I said these guys are
doing anawesome jobwith us, they want-- they don't
to see anymore loss of life and --
GARY: Well,that's right.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and, and Itold them that.
And I -- really,I said I have thehighest regard for
these peopleas, as David does,he thinks, you know,
they haveshown usa lot of, of decency and,and -- but
there's onething if you coulddo for us, if you could
leave oneline openfor the spiritual aspect becauseI
reallywhy I'm outhere, why we'reall here-- I
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- is that they have
questions aboutour doctrine, I meanthat's amajorthing to us. I mean, if wecould gap!.
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GARY: Whowas thatyou were just talking Iwith, Steve? '
MR. SCHNEIDER: Pardon?
GARY: You were referring to talking to, to
him orwhatever. Who,who, whowere you just talkingto about this?
MR. SCHNEIDER:You meanon the telephone?
GARY: Yeah, yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. What'sthat oh-oh,
here wego. What'shappening? Justa minute. Whats
happening? Okay.I guess they're movingin on us,huh?
GARY: Nobody'smoving in on you.
MR. SCHNEIDER:He's --Gary is telling me
nobody is. Talk to me, youpeople. Okay. They're,
they're checking it out.
GARY: I -- and you'll findout as before
that no one's makingany efforts to --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, Gary,I mean, you know,it's obvious that--
GARY: Now,we've been,we've beenthrough,,
we've beenthrough this-- I
M. SCHNEIDER:-- you know I'venever been,
in this situation, noneof ushave beenlike this in jour lives, you know.
GARY: Well,I don'tthink anybodyalive has
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been throughevents like, like what everyone's just
gone through here. '
MR. SCHNEIDER:Exactly. So, you know, its,it's --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:- it'ssomething newand,
and, youknow, onedoesn'twantto do anythingrapidly
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and make mistakes and --
GARY: Well, you know, I know we, we Y
mentioned toyou this several timesand I want youto,
to understand we meanthis. I don't knowhow to, to
makeitmore, more clearto you. Nobody's goingto
come in there and try to --
MR. SCHNEIDER:David keeps -- Gary,I'm
sorry, I didn't wantto cut you off --
GARY: That'sokay.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- but David -- asking me
rightnow, how comeJim hasn'tcalled he keeps on
asking?
GARY: Um-hum.
M. SCHNEIDER: I'm serious.Here'sa
QUY " ~
.GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- that,you know, he--
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that's, that'swhat he'sasking for.
GARY: Well, and, and I know David's, David's
your boss there and, and I'm-+ you know, candidly I"m
running into some problems with my bosses here.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Why would that be so hard
when he actually gap!.
GARY: Let me explain it to you.
MR. SCHNEIDER:If you want to alleviate the
problem and you want to do the best, what is so hard
about gettingan individualthat, that was workingsowell?
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I mean, that's his-- one his
desires, to continue onin the process. It is nothingagainst yourself. It's - i
GARY: No, I know, I know that.
MR. SCHNEIDER:- it's just that, you know,
between the words that were shared between them, I'm
going to respect that with him.- The manalready showed
me morethan I ever dreamedcould be possible for a E
human beingto learn so I give him the respect in
saying that he would like to continue this negotiation
himself as he started it with, with Jim. '
GARY: Um-hum. "
MR. SCHNEIDER:I mean, it's nothingwith
you.It's his desire. And what he, what he
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understands aboutthat, all the whys, you know, that's,
that's --he's showedme andtold us both, you know,
some ofthe reasons but I want to be able to give that
and say well, well, let's continueto do that then.
And it'snot that I'm notgoing to -- I'llcontinue no
talk to you, Gary, but with the, with the situation
with thechildren and,and continuingto workthis omtI'll, I'lltalk to you, buthe wouldlike to talk withJim and, and --
GARY: I know that.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- hear his voice again and,and --
GARY: Iknow that.He -~one of,one ofthethings I have to contend with just like David, David
is, is, is the boss insidethere. I have tocontendwith some bosses here.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Do you have, you have a
speaker phonewhere theycan hearme right now?
»GARY:No.,
MR. SCHNEIDER:I wish, I wish you did so
that theycould hearwhat I'msaying, you'resaying, ,maybe theycould makea judgmenton thatunless youwant to just keepgoing backto themor whoevertheyare. . _
GARY: Well,I, I want to -~ if you let me
finish, whatI wantto explainto youis you told me
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how Davidunderstood -- didn't understandwhy, whywe
couldn't getJim here. In the same token,I think, I
think you could understand that my bosses don't
understand whyyou can'tjusttalk to me.They, they-- from their point of view --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Because look, you're --
GARY: -- it'sjustas much --
MR. SCHNEIDER;-- on a side where you're
okay, you'renot going to be inany trouble when this
is all over. We'rein a precarious positiondealingwith ourown lives.That's --I mean,it's atotallydifferent situation.
GARY: And I think you know that I wouldn't
do anything to --
MR. SCHNEIDER:If I were inyour place I
would be saying the very samethings to someone like
me, I would be, I, I can't disagreewith you on that.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:But beingthat we'reinthispredicament and, and it'sa nightmare of course --
GARY: Okay. .
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and we havethe deepest
regret about the whole -- the loss of life with -- I
mean, we can't tellyou enough. ~
GARY: Okay. Let, let me, let me do this.
I'm, I'mgoing to --
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MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: - I'm goingto renew my efforts to --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thank you.
GARY: -- to see if Ican appeal the
situation. But when I go to my bosses, now Ihave to
be able to convey to them --
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
GARY: - the sense of how bringing Jim here
is going to make some, some,some positive influence --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well --
GARY: --on events. h
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. Well, you tell them
that David he saw -- there was a-- they, they
started yesterday -- the whole negotiating process
started with Jim.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:He did so well, his demeanor,
the attitude.
GARY: Well, Iknow, he, he did awonderful
job. -
MR. SCHNEIDER:He really did, and, and the =
sincerity and --
GARY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and David, he -- it's
nothing against you, but he beganwith the man andhewanted to continue.
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GARY: Well, I, I understand, I understand
that, believe me. And believe me, I'm, I'm,I'm not
offended by that.
M. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: But, but again now, now, put yourself
in my shoes for a minute. Now, I'vegot to go to my
bosses.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I, I think you can do it, I,
I -- in fact I know you can, Gary --
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- because you know that this
is still a volatile situation.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I mean, like yourself we say
we want to do itand work out an arrangement where --A
GARY: Um-hum. -
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- not only the children are
spared but we all have a, a chance. And so, you know,
this is what we're,we're workingfor and I know you
are. You've,you've saidmany timesand I believe you
when you say that there's noone out there that wants
more loss of life and, you know --
GARY: Well, there's, there'smore than a
chance, there'sabsolutely noreason inthe worldwhy 1WEcan't --
' MR.scrmsxnsm Exactly.
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GARY: -- we can't--
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, Ilike hearing that.
GARY: .--resolve thispeacefully. And,andIsee no obstacle other than this unfortunate issue
that's developed.But, but Steve, if, ifyou'lllisten
to me for a minute becausethis is very important.
Now, if I, ifI go in to the bosses onemore time,
okay, andI say listen, David is absolutely adamant
about talkingto Jim, I have to be able to convey to
themhow that, thatprocess is, is going to
specifically -- Ican'ttalktoday -- howit's reallygoing to benefit the --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, here's --
GARY: -- what we'retrying to do. Imean,for example --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, let me -- here's
something that'sgoing to benefit it.
GARY: Gap!
MR. SCHNEIDER:Ifit'snot donethat way--GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- well then we'reat a totallossand if you just want to --
GARY: Well,I, I know,Iknow you're saying
that, but can yoube, canyou bemore specificwith me?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, meaningthat if, if, ifwe don'tfollow throughwith that desire ofhis, andI
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don't thinkit's unreasonable,and if they don'twant
to bend well then to me it's showingthat they --
GARY: No, but it's not --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
GARY: -- a matter of bend. But you have to
understand all the bureaucrats out here, all the law-
enforcement officers, they don'tdeal in the realmof
the desire and understand,they're, they'remoreinthe
area of some, some concrete --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, I would agreewith you
about the lack of understanding because --
GARY: Well,and I, and I want to try to helpthem understand and I'mlooking --
MR. SCHNEIDER:You know, like that'swhat
we're --
GARY: -- I'm lookingto you --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I believe thatabout the
bureaucrats too.
GARY: -- I'm, I'mlooking to you to help me
to help them understand.Now, now,it's timethat we,
we discussedfor examplehow doyouthinkwe might be
able to move towards,towards resolvingthis situation?
If I can impartupon themthatbringing Jim backis
going tostart us downthatpath of, of, of settlementand, and, and --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well,David he hasn'tspoken
133
to me about all the ideas but --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you know,but he starts
talking with Jim that he will develop --
GARY: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- that hewill develop
indiscernible!.
GARY: - no, but you see, it'slikewe're,
we're, we'reputting what came first the chicken or the
egg. If I can -- I tell you, I've talkedto the bossesand, and --
MR. SCHNEIDER:This is a very strong desireof a group that's --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- in a very precarioussituation. -
GARY: I know that, I know that. But, but if
I can demonstrate abenefit, and,and if you couldbea little morespecific --
MR. SCHNEIDER:The benefitis that gap!maybe allwalk out of this place andsit down
ultimately andwhatever elseneeds tobedonefor, forthe loss, loss of life.
GARY: Well, no, there'snoquestion what
you're sayingultimately maybe, of course, ofcoursewe can do that,and, and --
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what I'msaying. But the best way we see it, the most
trustful way --
GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- is to do itthat way.
" GARY: Okay. Now, if, if we're ableto do
this, we'reready to start with the process with the
children again?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, he'sspeaking to me.
I'm sorry,Gary, just one second, one second.
GARY: Yeah, I'llhold on. Go ahead.
Pause!
M. SCHNEIDER: Doing this--
GARY: Huh?
MR. SCHNEIDER:He said he was doing this
with Jim to see how trustworthy and --
GARY: Um-hum.
-4 MR. SCHNEIDER: --how the whole systemwould
operate, thisis why. He'swaiting to see -- and now
it'slooking pretty bad, that's hisstatement.
GARY: Well, I,I wouldn't agreewith that.
MR. SCHNEIDER:And gap!if I were to gap!
to himwhat you'vebeen tellingme, thatyou've togoto your bosses, youknow, andhow they'regoing to take
it, well, that's -that makesit even look andsoundworse.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. That's-- well, that's
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GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, bottom line that's
what it sounds like.
GARY: Well, no, no. Now, we have to
understand --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, see Jim talked in a way
where hewas supposedto be the manthat was the one_
giving the word right all the way through, that he was
connecting withthis agency, that agency,holding thembackV--
GARY: Well --
MR: SCHNEIDER:-- passing the word right on
from yesterday when it all began.
GARY: I think Jim worked very hard to
accomplish somevery significant things concerningthevery tragic --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well gap! the trust that
David developedwith himand let's,let's bringhimback. I'm,I'm surethat he would be a man --
GARY: But, but, but --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- that would love to play a
part in that process indiscernible! havehim.
GARY: -- he-- you're, you're-- I agree
with you, but you're,you're avoidingmy, myneed on
this too. I, I want to helpyou butI needyou tohelpme andwhatI need to showmy bossis thathey, if we
136
bring Jim forward again, I mean this is what's
positively going to happen. Imean --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, do so.
GARY: - give you an example, okay? Just --
and, and this is something that we've beentalking
about all day anyway. We talked about Chrissie and
Brian and, and that once we get them out we were going
to start the process.You saidonce theycome outthe
process begins and it won't stopuntil it's over. If I
was -- now, that's something you'vealready talked
about doing. This isnot some sort of a, a new
concession or a new idea. If Iwere to be able to go
into my bosses and say listen, they assure me thatif I
can get Jim here we can start this process and I've got
their guarantee, Steve has assured me that David says
that this is going to happen, then I thinkI've got a
real good chance toconvince themthat, that--
MR. SCHNEIDER;Well see,that's --okay,Gary, that's --
GARY: Don'tyou think that's, that'sa
reasonable indiscernible!. -
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that'sexactly what
David said last night. He -- you know what?When it
was suggested by Jim even to stop and get a little rest
--f
GARY :Um - hum .
F
137
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- David actually said to me-- he was botheredbecause hewanted tocontinue to
indiscernible! the children out.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's thetruth.
GARY: Well, I, I--
MR. SCHNEIDER:That's honestlythe truth.
GARY: --I'm sureit is, but we'retalking
about lastnight. Now,how_can weback ontrack rightnow today?
MR. SCHNEIDER:By, by beginning againwithJim --
GARY: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and continuing onand, and
if he wants toinvolve youand you'reon the other lineor Italk to you or whatever else --
GARY: Well, I'll beinvolved --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay, sure.
GARY: -- throughout this process.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.
GARY: But, but can Igo to my boss and tell
him that? CanIgo to myboss andsay thatif we can
get Jimhere thatlittle Chrissie and Brianare goingto come out and the other kids --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Now yougot it.Yeah, if we_ can get Jim there can, canhe sayto his bosses that
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little Chrissie and Brian gap! yeah, that's whatwe're
- that's-- he says that'sexactly what we were doing
when we were talking with Jim. That's
indiscernible! - _
GARY: Okay. So they're,they're, they're--
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- we never wanted to stop.
GARY: -- ready to come out, and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's correct.
GARY: -- and once they come out the
additional children will come out?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly, exactly. That's --
GARY: And we're goingto try to replicate
essentially --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Here, I'm,I'm goingto --
GARY: -- the process we did last night?
M. SCHNEIDER: -- hand you over to David,
okay, Gary?
GARY: Sure, that'1l be fine.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Here he is. Hi,
David?
M. KORESH: Hey Gary, listen --
. GARY: How are you feeling, David?
MR. KORESH: Don't worry. Look --
GARY: Yeah?
MR. KORESH: -- last night we had about four
or five different people calling all the time telling
139
us what to do, right?
GARY: Yeah, yeah.
MR. KORESH= Yeah indiscernible!.
GARY: This was before, before Jim started?
M. KORESH:Well,during the time Jim - we
first contacted Jim, all right?
GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: Now, when I established with Jim
who he was I told him, I said, look, now, you're,
you're allsaying drop your weapons, come on out, I
says indiscernible! --
Unidentified female voice in background.!
MR. KORESH: -- we'vegot to do something
because Jim kept saying we got to develop a trust --
GARY: Right, right.
MR. KORESH: - you know?
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: So what happens is, is that it
came to the point where Jim said - he says, you know, »
"Look, don'ttalkto anybody else, don't negotiatewith
anybody else."He said, "We're goingto do this all F the way to the end."
GARY: Right.
MR. KORESH: And so we started it. We had,
we had alittle, we had a littletrouble atthe
beginning.
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GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: But, you know, we finally got
our system going to get my babies out.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Now, I told him, I said,
now, you know, you keep your part of the deal and I'll'
keep my part of the deal, then once we get all the
babies out then we'llstart talking about what we've
got to do --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- for the rest of them.
GARY: Um-hum, um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Now, last night Jim, Jim told
Steve that he was tired and he had to get some rest.
Now, he -- we -- he said, "Why don't youguys get some
rest and we'll -- "--
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- " -- and we'll take care of
this in the morning?"
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:And, and it's --I thought,
well, you know, let's-- why stop, you know? Because
the babieswere sleepinganyway, we'dhave towake themup --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- to get them ready.
141
GARY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH:Now, okay. So okay, you know, I
agree, this is okay, you know, this is -- the ball is
on your side of the court. So now, I mean, you know,
you came on and you -- you know, you're, you'recoming
in and saying trust you and all that and that'snot
the, that's not the question.
GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: The, the question is, am, am I
going to show that my integrity is to adhere to the
agreements that I've previously made.
GARY: Well, do you, do you think Jim would,
would leave me on the phone if he didn't think I had
the integrity and to, to talk and deal with you?
MR. KORESH: I, I think he left you on the
phone to do just that, to talk --
GARY: Yeah, to, to, to --
MR. KORESH: -- and he --
GARY: - not, not to keep you busy, but to
move forward with the groundwork that he had laid.
MR. KORESH: No, that'snot what he said.
GARY: Well --
M. KORESH: That's notwhat our agreement
was.
GARY: -- the, the confusion I thinklied in,
in the separate line thatwas going onwith Wayne. And
142
what Jim was meaningatthat time washe wanted to be
sure we were staying on one line and talking to one
person.
MR. KORESH: Look, me and Jim talked --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:-- all day yesterday. I know
exactly what we talked about --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- and what we --
GARY: I know. You know, David, it's just
that we've,we've, we'veturned this issueinto a--
just, just amajor stumbling blocktoday and,and --
MR. KORESH:Becauseit is apoint that I
wantto see about you guys --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:-- to see whetheryou're just
wearingamask or whetheryou're actuallygenuine human
beings with genuine humansympathy.
GARY: Um-hum. Well, of course we are.
MR. KORESH:See, there's,there's ministers
in this world that do a job --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:-- and they are, they are asfake asa three-dollar bill.
GARY: Well, I, I understand that and --
MR. KORESH:Yeah, now you do understand
143
that. Now, here's thedeal. You'retelling me you
don'twantanymore death, but what you'reshowing me is
the propaganda to try to promote one's self involved in
a situation that deals with the lives of others. Now,
if you were on this side of the fence you would
understand what I'm talkingabout; if I was on your
side of the fence I would understand what you're
talking about because I am me. You see, that's why,
that's whythat inthe doctrine that I teach, I teach
itno matter how incriminating it is againstme.
That's whatI was trying to do for the agent next door,
I was showing him the truth about me.
GARY: What agent next door isthat, Dave?
MR. KORESH: That was Robert Gonzalez and
Jeff and those guys. Now, the reason why, the reason
why, you know, we were waiting on you guys isbecause
like I said,we have a communication with somebody that
knows all things --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- the alpha and omega. And I
told Robert, I looked at him and looked into his eyes,
I says, "Robert, you know I'veshowed you the truth out
of the book, I am notgoing to hide anything from you.
And I says, "But now yougot to make adecision, you've
got to do what you've gotto do and I'vegot to do what
I've gotto do." And I gave himevery opportunity to
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know thatthere's aGodinheaventhat judgesthehearts of men andknows the minds of men. And I
thought and was hopingfor sure he would choose to be
able to get with you guysand saylook, the guy showed
me somethingout of the book, he's genuineand the
problem is wedon'tunderstand himandweneed to come
and talk.
GARY: Yeah.
M. KORESH=And see,Idid everything in my
power toavoid yougentlemen comingand doingwhatyoudid. I
GARY: I have to apologize to you because I
don't knowGonz- I'm,I'm notwith ATFand I, andI
wasn't involvedin that process. I --
MR. KORESH: Well --
GARY: - Idon'tknow all the backgroundtothat.
MR. KORESH: Well, Jim'swith ATP.
GARY: Right, but I'm just telling you I, I
don't,I don'twant togive youthe sensethat Iknow
all of the backgroundof this because, becauseIdon't.
MR. KORESH:Well, Ibrought him into myhouse and everything -- I
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:--you know? I have, Ihave
nothing tohide aslong asyou letme openup theBible
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GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:-- and see, if you'd listento aman's religion.
GARY: I think if we'd putsunshine on this
whole matterwe're allgoing to be better off. I think
MR. KORESH: But --
MR. GARY: -- there'sopportunity to have a
lot of things that, that you want to say andI,I thinkwe can help you do that.
MR. KORESH=Look, I know what I know and
obviously you know youdon't knowwhat I know.
GARY: I wouldn't beginto pretend to know
everything that'sin your mind andin your heart,David.
MR. KORESH:Okay. Now,the Bible is a big
book andthe harmonyof what the prophetshave been
shown mustbe harmonized,otherwise menof this
generation cannotknow thatthe prophetsare inharmonywith themselves. Any organizationthatis not in
harmony withitself cannot stand. The churches because
there areso manyof themis obviousproof that
somebody iswrong. Ifthere is one God, heshould be
worshiped asone Godand heshould haveone peoplewithone nameand onetruth.And so Godhas in wisdom
146
reserved atestament sothat all men withopen eyesand
open minds might see that thatcredential called the
servant of God mustbe able to plainly reveal the seven
seals in the light of the prophets. I didn't write
that. That was written long before I came into the
world and you cameinto the world. And so becauseit
is written, it is written that we mightknow andnow
because Ihave beenmisunderstood it'snot by those
who've heardme oropened thebook andsaw thewords,
it's bythose who refused to listen. So --
GARY: Um-hum,um-hum. Well, David, I knowyou're -- '
MR. KORESH: How come Jim --
GARY: Youknow, you, you sound, you sound
like you'rereally hurtingright nowand I'm,I'm veryconcerned for you.
MR. KORESH:How comeJim hasn'tcome inyet?
GARY: Okay.What I was trying to explain to
Steve, and,and I'mtrying to help youto understand,
what mybosses --they wantedhim tohave somesleepand I told Steve, beginning moreand morerealized that
this is an absolutelycritical item for you, but before
I can go in to mybosses and,and convincethem that,
that by bringing Jimthisis going tomake averypositive impact on the events.
M. KORESH:The children are going to be let
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out of here as long as Jim is communicating with me
like we agreed. -
GARY: Yeah, yeah. See, what they don't
understand, David, is, is, is why you're, you're
wrapping everything into one person, because Jim is
just a voice for, for the authorities here.
MR. KORESH: No, Jim is a person.
GARY: Of course he is.
MR. KORESH: He's not just a voice for the
authorities.
GARY: But, but he speaks for the authority
of, of the on-scene commanders here and, and that's --
now, now you're comfortable talking with Jim, I
understand that, and I understand --
MR. KORESH: Well, let me explain again,
Gary. He also has respect for the voice of the
authority thatI speak in behalf of.
GARY: I have respect for thattoo Dave, I
have respect for that too and you know that.
MR. KORESH: So then why do you not adhere to
the original agreements? I mean, what is it? Are you
GARY: Well then, what, what original
agreement are you referring to?
MR. KORESH: Me and Jim to avoid a lot of
additional -- .
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GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- confusion and flak --l
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:-- we decided and agreed and
confirmed that we woulddeal with nobody else but --
GARY: Well, see --
MR. KORESH:-- Jim and that'swhy --
GARY: -- see, the on-scene commanders are .
telling me that Jim never, nevermade that,that
promise.
MR. KORESH: That's not--
GARY: He,he wasgoing to talk with you and
work withyou, but I think you, youput moreinto thatthan what he said.
MR. KORESH:That's nottrue, Gary.
, GARY: Yeah? Well, I'll, I'lltell you what
I'd liketo do. I'd liketo reachout to Jim myself
and geta clarificationon this. But now,for meto goin andconvince mybosses thathey, I'vegot toget Jimhere totalk to David, thisis just an imperativeso
that wecan moveforward and,and getback ontrack and
make, make,make someprogress hereso thatwe canallresolve this situation --
MR. KORESH:Get thething overwith, yeah.
GARY: Well,we don'twant tosee anybodyelse gethurt. For me todo that,can, canI tell them
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that if, if we bring Jim here that we can start the
process again of the children getting them out?
MR. KORESH: Immediately.
GARY: Immediately, okay. I have, I have
your guarantee --
MR. KORESH: Immediately.
GARY: -- that if, if I can get Jim here --
MR. KORESH: Just like last night,
immediately.
GARY: Okay.I have, I have your wordon
that then? _
MR. KORESH: You have God's wordon that.
GARY: Okay. Well, I'll, I'll acceptthat
warmly. And okay, let me talk to them.
MR. KORESH:That's whatwe've beentrying to
tell you all night long, Gary.
GARY:Well,I know, andit's hardfor
me -- you feel so strongly about it it's hardfor me to
try to explain to you the perspective from out here and
I, I think I'vefailed indoing that. But I want you
to understand and I hope you believe that there's no
malicious intent in that. It's justit's difficultfor
the, for the bosseshere to fully comprehendand
understand what'sgoing onand, andI'm, I'mtrying to
help themto understand.And I think we'remaking some
progress now, but you, you've givenme somethingto
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which I can carry to them now andI can make a very
strong pitch, let's get Jim here from the hotel and
let's --
MR.KORESH: And let's--
GARY: -- andlet's --
MR. KORESH: -- get these babies out of here.
GARY: Because you've, you'veguaranteed me
now that we can start the process. How many kids are
there, David? I
MR. KORESH:You'll findoutwhen you getthem all. '
GARY: Okay. _
MR.KORESH: There's alot, okay?
GARY: Oh, there is? Do, do we need any
special -- I mean, are they all old enough to walk or
MR.KORESH: No, some of them are like
newborns.
GARY: Newborns, yeah, okay.
MR.KORESH: So --
GARY: What'sgap! to do it like we did~
before, two-by-twoor did you wantto send more of themout? .
MR. KORESH:Like -- just like Jim and I
agreed. ~
' GARY:Yeah. Is, is that the -- is that the
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easiest method to do it or, or is there other idea --
MR. KORESH= It establishes a greater line of
trust.
GARY: Okay, that's, that'sgood, good for
us. All right. Let me then go with that, David, go to
my bosses and, and discuss with them what we've talked
about. And I feel more optimistic that I've got
something concrete now rather than just, you know, we
have to talk, we have to talk. Now I've, I'vegot some
firm commitments.
MR. KORESH: Well, I went indiscernible!
this all last night.
~ GARY: well, it really didn't come out that
way to tell you the truth and maybe it was my
misunderstanding, but it, it - it's more clear now to
me.
MR. KORESH: All right.
GARY: And --
MR. KORESH: Once Jim gets on the phone and
he sends a van two more children are going to be there.
GARY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: See, now they, now they can know
that there'sno peoplein the, in the, in the trailer
up at the front so we'll just decide whether hewants
us to drive them down to the water tanks or whether he
wants us to just drop them up at the front part of the
O O 152property.
GARY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: S0 --
GARY: Okay. when, when he gets here
hopefully we can work those details out and so that we
can do itin a way that'ssatisfactory to everybody and
everybody feels good about itand we can make some
progress.
MR.KORESH: Okay.
GARY: Okay?
MR. KORESH: Thank you, I appreciate it.
GARY: Okay. well, well, are you going to be
there now where I can reach out to you on the phone?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, I'll always be here,
that's- I ain't going nowhere.
GARY: Okay. Are you able to walk around?
MR. KORESH: I can't move.
GARY: Really? Do you have any extra
medications that, that you need or something?
MR.KORESH: No, Im doing all right.
GARY: Okay. We'd like,we'd liketo get you
out there to a hospital as soon as we can.
MR.KORESH:A No, I don't, Idon't knowif
that - do any good anyway.
GARY: Well, I, I think- we don'twant you
to suffer an injury that'sgoing to take your life, you
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know, I mean --
MR. KORESH: Gary --
GARY: - you suffered an injury.
MR. KORESH: -- you know, this old world --
GARY: I know, I know.
MR. KORESH: - some ATF agents have died,
right?
GARY: That's right.
MR. KORESH: I'm nobetter than they are.
GARY: And you're no worse and, and, and
there's alot of bloodshed that happened today and -- I
mean yesterday and believe me, we don't want to see
anybody else die from wounds received. It doesn't --
that's notgoing to bring back the lives of anybody
else who --
MR. KORESH: You know, you know what? You
know what one of the greatest pains there is, is when I
look out a window and see those, those young men laying
out there --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: and to think that if it'd
been on a different situation wecould have been good
friends. I
GARY: Yeah, I think you're right.
MR. KORESH: You know --
GARY: You're right.
.' 154MR. KORESH: -that's, that's what hurts.
GARY: Yeah, yeah. well, we have to make a
commitment to go on and, and making things better than
they wereand learn from the mistakes of the past and
indiscernible!.
MR. KORESH: well, the thing is is that man
never learns the mistakes of the past.
GARY: Yeah,I don'tknow, I don't know.
MR. KORESH: In the book of Zefenia it talks
about the Lord
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: being in a certain nation that
would not receive instructions, you obeyed not the
voice says the just lord in the midst thereof and you
will bring indiscernible! for his judgment
indiscernible! to light every morning but the unjust
will know no shame. Talks about a person revealing the
seals, you know?
GARY: Well, let's hope that we, we've, we've
learned from our mistakes at least to the point that we
can avoid anymore bloodshed in this situation, okay?
MR. KORESH: Okay. So give me a call back
then, all right? Y
I GARY: Okay. We'll be calling you back as
soon as I have a chance to talk to the bosses.
MR. KORESH: Tell the bosses to give us some
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GARY: Okay. Well, I'll to them. Let's --
I'm workingon Jim first, okay? L
MR. KORESH: Okay. Thank you.
GARY: Good enough. Bye-bye.
MR. KORESH: Bye.
Phones hung up!
end of tape!
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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS A
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TAPE #6
2/28/93
note: tapes 4and 5 dated March 1; tape 6 may bemisdated as Feb. 28.!
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Tape 6!
DAVID: Okay, here Iam.
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: David?
DAVID:Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay. Well, I've
got somegood newsfor you. h
DAVID:Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: But rather thank
me saying it, Ithink Ihave somebody here that maybe
can explain it to you a little bit better. Okay?
DAVID:Okay.
JIM: David? Hey, this is Jim.
DAVID: So, what are you doing?
JIM: Hey, buddy, how you doing?
DAVID: Well, I'm, I'mwondering what, whats
going on.
JIM: Oh, shoot, I've been kind of worried
about you. I've beenkind of out of touch and I
apologize. Iknow Gary's beenhelping you. Let me
tell you what happened. The commanders wanted me to
get somerest. You know, oneof thoseagentsIknew
pretty good.
DAVID:Uh-huh.
JIM: And Iwas kind of upset about it. And
they wanted me to get some rest, you know. And -- but,
listen, and then after that, I went by Human Services
3
tosee if the kids were okay. And I'm sorryit took so
long. How have you been getting on? '
DAVID: Well, you know, I'm layinghere.
JIM: Still can't move?
DAVID: No.
JIM: Geez.
DAVID: But the deal, like I was telling him,
you know, I told him I made, Imade an agreement with
you.
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: And I'mnotgoing to break that, I'm
not going tobreak that atall. So --
JIM: I know you're-- _
DAVID: And I realize you needed sleep last
night, you know. So I told him, I said well, we can
take itup inthe morning.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: So --
JIM: But, you know --
DAVID: -- what we was doing, right?
JIM: Right. Buddy, youknow I wouldn't give
you anybodythat,you know, you couldn'ttrustand --
DAVID: Well, that's notwhatwe agreed on.
I probably could trust thisguy, but, you know, it's
nota matterof us trusting somebody orsomeone saying
trustme. Thematteris, is we madeadeal and we've
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been having calls from all these different directions
with people telling uswhat to do. H
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Wanting usto make adeal with them.
JIM: Sure, I understand.
DAVID: You know, you can't -you know,
we're not bookies, we don't dothat kind of deal.
JIM: Yeah, I understand. But --
DAVID: S0 ~-
JIM: Gary --listen, let me tell you,
David, that Gary did a real good job. He went out here
and, you know, he'sgot all these commanders here.
And, I mean, justbunches of them, and he really went
out on alimb and he just said look, David wantsto
talk to Jim and, and David'sgoing to work with us, but
you've gotto -- he wantsto talkto Jimright now.And so, he, he really went to bat for you. He's agood
guy. It's-# I have a lot of responsibility, just like
you do. You know, a lot of things on my shoulders,
too, and just like you, and I sympathize withyour
position. -
And so-- Gary told methat, you know, if I
came back, that you promised to sendsome kids out.
And, of course, I knewyou would anyway.
DAVID: That was our original agreement
anyway.
5
JIM: Right. Well, I »my reply was hey, I
already know that. I mean, you don't even have to tell
me. The guy isas good as his word and his word is
golden. And I remember -- infact, I thought last
night that, you know, maybe Chrissy and Brian would,
you know, get out after I left. But, hey, that'sokay.
We can, we can do it now. And once Gary got the I
commanders together, I've alreadytold them to set up
the shuttle cars and, you know, get it ready.
I said David wants to do it and that's the
way we'regoing to do it. So, you know, they're
getting the cars ready down there and, you know, just
so we can kind of get together on it. But, listen,
I'm, I'mkind of feeling for you, you know. I know
you've gota big responsibility with allyour people in
there and I'm sureit'sweighing pretty heavy on you.
DAVID: Well, I'm hopingthat what you read
in the Bible last night wasweighing heavyon you.
Jim, I'mgoing to win, okay?
JIM: Yeah. We're allgoing to win.
DAVID: No, we're notall going to win. You
see, if we don'tconfess to, to God that we don't know
something, you know--
JIM: Yeah. -
DAVID: - then we'reintrouble, 'cause,
see, that's the wholething, what the sealsare about.
6
It's a test, a test to every man on earth that
professes godliness.
JIM: Umhum.
DAVID: And, now, you heard those guys last
night on the radio. You heard these teachers and
scholars.
JIM:Um-hum.
DAVID: You hear what their explanations are?
JIM: Oh, yeah.
DAVID: Stutteringand sputteringand theydon't knowwhat they'retalking about. Why don'tthey,
you know, turnit off?
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Okay. Now, these guys - you're
going to put your soul in the trust of these men that
don't knowwhatthey're doing?
JIM: I'm not going to do that. I'm not
going to do that.
DAVID: Yeah. Well, the thingof itis is
that there are thousands who do. Now, you know, I,
I've gotme agroup of people, right?
JIM:Right.
DAVID: And I've, I'vetaughtthem the first
seal and I taught them the second seal, the third and
the fourth. I explained to them after the fourth seal
things change 'cause, see,there's onlyfour beasts.
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In the first four seals the beast is coming. See, now,
there'sa meaning to that.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: But there is a real meaning to it.
But thefifth seal is a sad thing for the worldbecauseit'sa seal that talks about -- and I beheld when the
lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw underthe altar, the
souls that have been slainfor the word of God and for
the testimony which they held, crying to God, saying
oh, Lord God, how long will not avenge ourblood upon
those who dwell upon the earth?
JIM: Hmmm.
DAVID: You see, someone died 2,000 years ago
so that man can have a chance to learn the truth about
condemnation. Somebody died so that man could admit
they don'tknow what they're doingand they would
listen and learn. And so, when youread the Book of
John, all through the Book of John,Jim --
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: --it's always being said of Christ
that Christ -- I can -myself through nothing, but
that which I receive of my father that I speak, for the
doctrine is not mine, but it'smy father's.See, they
didn't understandthat 2,000 years ago.
JIM: Um-hum. i
DAVID: So, heaven tried to make it a little
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easier this time so that John the Revelator wrote that
when the Gentiles are going to be judged, it's goingto
be based on the same truth the Jews rejected. It's
going to be according to the father giving to his son a
book. So that you can now know the doctrine is not my
own, it'smy father's,you know. I, I do not speak of
myself, but what the father has givenme that I
received.
JIM: Umhum.
DAVID: And so, that'swhy in these symbols
it's soclear that when I come in the volume of the
book that'swritten to me, I have to show you from the
writings of all the prophets what God has already told
them about me. Otherwise, I'm nothing.
JIM: Yeah, I understand.
DAVID: You can't believeflesh and blood,
you have to, you have to pass the test.You have to
stand up to the credentials.
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Now, the fifth seal, you know, in
Isaiah 26, it says we have a strong city. Salvation
will guardour plentiful walls and bulwarks. It says
open you the gatesthat the righteous nation which
keeps thetruth may enter in, cause that will keep him
in perfect peace whosemind hasstayed onme, ohGod,
because hetrusteth in me. It says trust in the Lord,
9
1 for the Lord is everlasting strength. So bringeth down
2 them that dwell on high. Yea, the lofty city, Babylon,
3he'll bring it down, even to the dust, for the feet o
4 the poor and the needy shall trod it underfeet.
S It says let David be showed to the wicked.
6~ Yet, will they not learn righteousness? In the land of
7 uprightness they would deal unjustly, for they would
Bi not behold the majesty of the Lord. Lord, when thy
9 hand is lifted up, they will not see. You know, the
10 father upholds his word, don't he?
11 JIM: Right. _
12 DAVID: But they shall see and then they
13 shallbe ashamed for their anger against thy people.
14 It says Lord, we'vebeen in pain. We've been in pain
15 as a woman in travail. It says we have not wrought any
Ii 16 deliverance inthe earth,neither havethe inhabitants
17 of the world fallen. It says but by dead men shall
18 arise with my dead body. Awake he that dwell in the
19 dust. Then --
20 JIM: David --
121 DAVID: I know it sounds like poetry to you,
i221 doesn't it?
I _23 JIM: No. Listen, I just want to --
24 DAVID: You allare going to kill us.
25 JIM: No, no, no.
} DAVID: Because - now, listen, Jim --
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JIM: We wouldn't do that. We're not going
to do it.
DAVID: Jim, let me explain something. You
know, you know that Ican'tlay here, you know, too
many days before, you know - I mean, the infection's
already in me, okay?
JIM: But, David, we're going to resolve
this.
DAVID; No, let me explain something. You
know, that'swhy I kept telling Gary that, you know,
last night I shared Psalms 89 with you, didn't I?
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: You see, inspiration is
for God to tell men the future. The same
created heaven and earth, by his word, is
who foretells the future and brings it to
JIM: Umhum.
the ability
God who
the same God
pass.
DAVID: And so, God forewarns men by sending
prophets, and that's alreadybeen done. But the Jews
would not receive the testimony of those men. Well,
so, finally, the New Testament tells them that now
everybody is responsible. Now all the Gentiles can be
responsible for knowing and believing these truths that
the Jews rejected. So, now we'vecome to the time, you
know. Sevenseals is the big thing nowwe're talkingabout.
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JIM:Right.
DAVID: I cannot consent toyour laws and
your system because my laws and my system is higher.
But don't get me wrong, don't, don't think that I
liberally literally ordeliberately try to break the
laws of the country orthe nationbecause, as I said
before, this nationwas blessed because it, it
vindicated the principles of the Ten Commandments.
JIM:I understand.
DAVID: But what happens is when God's truth
comesintothe world, no man is excused from opening
his eyes and seeing what God of heaven requires. On
the currency of this nation's currency it says,in God
we trust.Okay?
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Now, are we talking about my God that
sits onthe throne? Are we talking about giving toGod
what is God's and giving toCaesar what is Caesar's?
What are we talking about here?
JIM:Yeah.
DAVID: Are wetalking about the god who, who
has seven seals which are a mystery untilthere's time
no longer? Well, that'swhat we'retalking about, Jim.
JIM: Yeah, I understand. ~
DAVID: And now people, they don't,they
don't understandbecause they choose not to.
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JIM; Hey, David, hold on just asecond.
What did you say? Okay. Talking to someone else.! I
hear the kids, are they okay?
DAVID: Who's crying over there? Who's
crying? Who'scrying? Look, I can't-- who'scrying?
Oh, it'sBobby. .
JIM: Bobby? How old --
DAVID: They're just, they're just typical --
JIM: How old's Bobby?
_DAVID: Bobby's -- oh, it's Star?
JIM: Star?
DAVID: Star is three.
JIM: Three. They just hollered atme and
told me the car wasready.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: 'Andso you might want to just,you
know, start getting the kids ready --
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: -- to, you know, get their coats and --
it's kindof cold out. I'vebeen out and it'sa little
cold and --
DAVID: Well, they've got jackets and we'll
JIM: Get their jackets, yeah.
DAVID: You want usto drive them to the
water tank,right?
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JIM: Yeah. If we could do it, it would --
DAVID: Okay. i
JIM: That'd be the best, I think. Is --
DAVID: Darryl's coming, right? Here, let me
let you talk to Sita.
JIM: Let me try to set thatup, okay?
SITA: Hi, Jim.
JIM: Sita?
SITA: Yes.
JIM: How are you?
SITA= I'mdoing fine. How about you?
JIM: Well, I'm doingfine. Listen, I've
got, I've got the car ready to go, but just let me
check onDarryl, okay?
SITA: Okay. All right.
JIM: I don't knowif he'sgoing to be
available, okay? But let me tellyou this. I won't
send anybody thatI can't vouchfor, okay? Igive you
my word now. I'llsend somebody. It'ssomebody
that'll be just as good, just as trustworthy. Okay?
You can trustme, Sita, now.
SITA: Okay.
JIM: Okay. So -- and I willtell you
beforehand whether it's himor not, but I willscreen
whoevers going togo.
SITA: Okay.
.
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JIM: Do you understand?
SITA: Yeah.
JIM: Okay. Take your time, a few minutes,
get themready, coat -- it'scold, coats on, you know,
and, and give them some hugs and stuff and -~
SITA
get some extra
JIM:
SITA
JIM:
SITA
JIM:
SITA
number.
JIM:
grandparents?
SITA
JIM:
' SITA
JIM:
SITA:
JIM:
SITA
JIM:
SITA
JIM:
Is it okay, I can bring - they can
clothes for them?
Absolutely, yes, whatever you want
Okay.
Yeah.
Their name is Brian and Scott.Okay. l
And I'll just give you the phone
Okay. The phone number of their
Just a minute. I'm
Go ahead.
Hello?
Yeah, go ahead, Sita.
Scott and Chrissy 5-
Scott and Chrissy.
--Mabb.
Spell that for me. I
MA-B-B.
Okay.
sorry.
S it MAB?
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SITA: And their phone number is 605923- t
2641. '
JIM: Okay. All right. You get, you get
them ready and, you know, after --David said that
we're justgoing to, you know, go two by two.
' SITA: Yes.
JIM: So, you get those - them ready. And
then once they go out, you know, you can take a few-
minute break because we'regoing to, you know, in
between. But then you can start, you know, who, who
you want to send out next and, you know, get their
coats and stuff. You know what I mean?
SITA: Yeah. I
JIM: I mean, we'llhave a little time, but,
you know, have somebodyelse kind of maybe help the
kids cause you're busy.You know what I mean. And
it'd beeasier, see, in the daytime.
I SITA: Oh, wait, wait.
DAVID: Hey, Jim.
JIM: Hey, David.
DAVID: We --when we -- we've gotto send
Patron and Jenessa --
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: - because they're,they're, they're
the, they'rethe samebrother andsister of Camaray andLandon.
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JIM: Oh, absolutely. Okay, yeah, that's
great. n
DAVID: I'm sorry about that.
JIM: That's no problem.
DAVID: Listen, Patron's four months old.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: A car seat and --
JIM: How about if I have a lady agent?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: You haven't seen #-
DAVID: You better bring some formula.
JIM: Oh, we'll getsome formula. And the
lady agent, would that help you?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Sita can hand the four-month-old to the
lady agent?
DAVID: Yeah. You know, the old bruiser guys
may not know how to deal with a four-month --
JIM: You know what I'm saying.They're kind
of rough.
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Okay,I'll setthat up.And howold'sJenessa?
DAVID: Jenessa, how old is she now?
Talking to someone else.! Five-and-a-half.
JIM: Five, okay.
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DAVID: Oh, she's eight. I'm sorry.
JIM: Make sure they'vegot warm stuff,
David.
DAVID: Yeah, we'll dress them warm.
JIM: Okay. And then maybe you can have
somebody otherthan Sita, after you decide and identify
who the next two are -- Ithink we could do - or Brian
and Chrissy --
DAVID: You already know Sonja.
JIM: Oh, sure. '
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Yeah, she can get Brian and Chrissy
ready or something.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: We want them to have time to get their
warm coatsand, and kiss their mom. But, you know, we
want to, like you said, just keep itgoing and --
DAVID: Right.
JIM: And, and I've jumped their bones in
the -- on thecommander's office about that stuff we
had last night.
DAVID: Uh-huh.
JIM: You know, where the car wasn't ready?
DAVID: Yeah. -
JIM: Remember, we had that? Isaid look, I
mean, David'sbeing straight up and you send thiscar
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with no radio and then wecan't call them, you know,
and they'relate, you know. So, I've toldthem you get
all the cars there, that's what David wants, and he'll
send them out. Okay?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: All right, Buddy.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Patron, four months old, and Jenessa?
DAVID:Patron and Jenessa, yeah.
JIM: Okay. Hey, listen, this is great.
What you'redoing here benefits everyone. This is
tremendous.
DAVID: Well, like I say, there's a little
secret with these children.
JIM: Yeah .
DAVID: There's a ~- you'll see, you'llsee
later. Psalms 8. If you'll readPsalms 8, you'll,
you'll see.
JIM: They're, they're beautiful. And this
is great. Patron and Jenessa want to see their
brothers and sister.
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: But I went over there this morning and,
and, and Human Services, where they have the children,
and I went over it with them and those are all real
gentle people. And they, they're just real nice and --
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DAVID: Yeah, we know, we know some Of th0Se
ladies.
JIM: And they're taking care of them. S0, I
want you to assure their mothers and stuff. I mean,
they really are safe and dry and happy.
DAVID: Well, have you contacted their --
kin?
JIM: Yeah, we were having that done and, and
Human Services was helping us.And Ihaven'tgotten
word back on that. Listen, we'regoing to bring the
kids over here to me, just like yesterday. Okay?
DAVID: It'S like --
JIM: And putthem on the phone?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Let me --yeah, let me do this, David.
I want to get these cars started and I want to walk out
here to these commanders. I don'twant any glitches.
Okay?
DAVID: Which glitches?
JIM: Well, you know, mistakes where they
didn't hear me.
DAVID: Oh, okay.
JIM: Well, let me see if I can get a car
there for -- wait, hold on justa second.
DAVID: Okay.
' JIM:See if they'll runa car upto the
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water tower and
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
voice.
JIM:
I'm sorry--
20
notify them. Hey, how'sSteve doing?
Hello?
Steve.
Jim, how you doing?
I'm great,buddy. How are you?
Not bad. I'm gladto hear your
Well, I was kind of worried about you.
STEVE: I, I- you know, Itold Gary we
appreciated him, and we did and everything, but David
definitely wanted to speak with you. He started it and
everything, and we kept on trying and every way
possible, you know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: We'vegot to get
BCHI.
STEVE: SO--
JIM: Yeah. Well, look, I'msorry. Itold
David what happened. And, you know, theytold me I've
got to get some rest.
STEVE = Right .
JIM:
you know.
I knew, I knew some of those agents,
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM:
hospital to see
And, and I wanted to stop by the
some of these otherguys.
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STEVE: Oh, I'm sure.
JIM: And you'll beglad to know that they're
all doing good.
STEVE: Good. Good, I'mglad.
JIM: I mean, they'reall talking, you know.
STEVE: Great.
JIM: And all of the agents feel pretty,
pretty good. They're alltalking and there's no-- I
can tell you there'sno hate in anybody'sheart out
here.
"STEVE: Right.
JIM: And they're justsaying --
STEVE: That'show I felt.
JIM: We talked to them today and I said
listen, you know, thosefolks out there wentthrough
the samething and they're suffering,too, you know.
And theywere all saying -one thing they're all
thrilled about was thesekids getting out.
STEVE: Right. That's good.
JIM: And so, you know, I just gotta just say
I think it's great.And I'msorry I was late.
STEVE: That's,that's okay.
JIM: But I went by Human Services --
STEVE: Yeah.
- JIM: --and I wanted to see how the kids
were doing.
22
STEVE: Right .
JIM: And that's allsquared up, so -e
STEVE: Good.
JIM: --you can tell the moms that.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: What happened was, Gary went out on a
limb here. He got, he got out with these commanders,
man. He, he made a big stink, you know.'
STEVE: He did, huh?
JIM: He said man, you know, we're tryingto
work this out, and he says I'm tryingto work with
David andSteve and,you know,he saystheseguys are,
are not, you know,tricking us, they're keepingtheir
word and,and said,you know,I wantyou toget Jimover here and all that stuff. I
STEVE: Right.
JIM: Again, he went out on a limb for you.
STEVE: I, I believe it.
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: I, Itold him Ireally had a, you
know,a greatappreciation for, you know, his-- I told
him don'tbe offendedor, or --it'snothing against
yourself and, you know,David wanted-- he started
talking withyou andhe likedthe rapport. And you'rean awesome listener.
JIM: well, listen, you know, it'shard for
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me to be here all the time, and that's whyGary, you
know, or somebody else -- you know, I didn't wantto .
give you anybody to talk to that I didn'ttrust 1,000
percent.
STEVE: Right.
JIM:And, and I think the proof'sin the
pudding when he goes out and --
STEVE: I'm sure.
JIM: -- battles thosecommanders. You know,
they'll probablybust him two ranks when this isover.
STEVE: David just said to me because of the
wayyou'vebeen, you know, in Isaiah 55:3 it sayshear
and thy soul shall live. And, I mean, that'sthe,
that'sthemain -- there'sone of the main keys right
there.
JIM: Yeah. Well,how, how are you feeling?
Are you okay?
STEVE: Yes, yes.
JIM: Did you get any rest?
STEVE: By the way, yes -- but, no, I didn't.
I laid down for abouta half hour. I couldn't sleep.
I, I tried to acouple times, but the phonewas ringingand --
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: One thing that,you know, hewas
disappointed andIwas that all lines werecut off and
we weren'table to -- the one thing Iguess we wanted
-- a lot of these want him to reply and he can t
now You know, there'sa number of challenges on the
radio back to him.
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: And Iwas wondering lfwhat would
the --Jim, what do you think, what would be the
possibility --
JIM: I'msorry, wait They're hollering
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Wait aminute The car, the car
movingOkay. Allright
STEVE: Not past thewater tower now
don'twantanything past the water tower
JIM: Okay, I'm sorry
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Tellme
STEVE: Yeah?
one thing
JIM: Is he stillbleeding a lot
STEVE: No, he's not No he'snot
JIM: Okay. You've got-- do you -- look, I
know Iasked you thisyesterday
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: And you've got-- Imean, yesterday was
a bad day for all of us
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sure
weak
he's
been
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STEVE: Right.
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
.appreciate it.
JIM:
know.
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE:
JIM:
But Ican arrange to send you in Some
.c1ean gauze pads and, and, and, you know --
: We'vegot plenty of that.
Are you sure?
: Oh, yeah, yeah. But I definitely
We could just hand it off to Sita, you
We have a lot. '
Okay.
Believe me, we do.
All right. I just, just want to make
Yeah.
--because he's, youknow, he sounded
to me today and I --
STEVE: Well, he was, you know, the
not really sleptthe entire day or night
talking and talking, so he's realhoarse
know, just -- I tell you what, I was so tired
hours ago, but it seems like I've reboundeda
truthis
and he's
and, you
a couple
little
bit. I don'tkhnow w y, you know, lacking sleep, but,
out of it.
yeah, we'retrying to still, you know, make the best
JIM: Hold on, Steve. Excuse me. Okay,
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yeah. Is Sita there? Well, tell David, you can just
tell him for me -- '
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: -- he's gotthe four-month-old
Patron --
STEVE: Right.
JIM: -- and I'vetold him I was going to try
to get alady agent to, to help with her, but I don't
have one.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Okay? So, I told the commander to come
in and get me an agent who was kind of gentle, you
know.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Okay? And this little baby, you
know --
STEVE: Right.
JIM: -- has got to be --
STEVE: Little baby --
JIM: -- handled with kid gloves.
STEVE: He was saying that they don't havea
female like they hope, but he wanted -- he asked for
the most gentle man there. He'ssmiling.
JIM: Huh?
STEVE: He says tell them to send Gary.
JIM: Yeah. Well, that'sright. But,
0 v2'7
anyway, we'll take care of that.
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
right now, Sita
JIM:
STEVE
that already or
Okay.
The car is at the water tower.
It's there now?
It's there now.
Okay, the car is at the water tower
She's ready.
Okay.
And you have the agent and -- all
-- or you just want to -okay, I guess
you've gotthe paper all ready.
JIM: Okay.
' STEVE:Okay. And, plus, I guess she'll be
handing the addresses off.
JIM: Yeah, that'd be great. Sure.
STEVE:Yeah.
JIM: And we'llhave them come over here and
let them talk to you.
STEVE: Right. Okay, good. So, you'reable
to call through here, of course?
JIM: I tell you, Steve --
STEVE: Yeah?
JIM: -- it'sunbelievable out here. I mean,
you've got,you've gotevery reporter in captivity out
here.
STEVE: I believe it.
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JIM: And, you know, there's just people
everywhere and, you know, it's evenhard -- you know
how many times we got cut off yesterday.
STEVE: Right.
_JIM: Remember when all that stuff --
STEVE: Well, that was the telephone. I
mean, right up until now, we tried everything. We had
a number of cords, you know, like with those stupid
little connectors in between, and somebodywould step
on the thing. "
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: Then we'd haveto have somebody go
find out where it was loose. And that happened right
through until -- through the middle of the night even.
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: Got to be -- and, finally, we just
says well, look, don'twe have one cord that'1l doall
of this? And, finally, we did and this is why we got
something clear now.
JIM: Well, the technology.
STEVE: It seems like we're missingthere a
little bit.
JIM: David said that --
STEVE: David, David's sayingsomething.
Just a minute.
JIM: All right.
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STEVE: Yeah, hesays if you couldbring a
decent telephone and 150 feet of cord, that we'll pay
for it even.
JIM: Oh, no, I wouldn't askyou to do that.
I think we'd need a lot more cord than that.
STEVE: Even this one here --
JIM: Oh, oh, that's what you want?
STEVE: Yeah, yeah.
JIM: Okay. We can probably arrange it.
STEVE: Just stop by Radio Shack or anything,
you know, we'd morethan be happy to pay for it.
JIM: Oh. Let me see what I can --
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: -- check on for that. Maybe we can do
that.
STEVE: Thisthing here, Imean --
JIM: That's the one -- what isit, isit
like a Princess phone or something?
STEVE: Actually, the one we've gothere, it
says Bell SouthProducts and it's, it's beenused alot
and I think it'sbeen dropped and Ithink that'spart
of the problem.
JIM: That'swhy it kept cutting off
yesterday?
STEVE: Yeah. I didn't know if it was
30
half the phone, and I knew the connection, too, because
I sawpeople stepping on the cord and then all of a
sudden it'dbe gone and --
JIM: Where've you got it, in thehallway or
something?
STEVE: Yeah. Well, right now I'min the
hallway because, you know, I'm, I'mtrying to --
David's here, justoff to theside over hereinto the
room. So --
JIM: Okay. Hold on one second.
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: I want to check on the telephone. Pass
thaton to the commander, I'll talk to him abouta
telephone later. Okay, I'll just-- I've gotto run
thatthrough the commanders.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Well, I'msure-- well, we'll talk
aboutit, okay?
STEVE: Okay. You wantto call me back then
later?
JIM: Well, yeah. IsSita going outnow?
STEVE: Yes.
JIM: Okay. Why don'tyou -- why don'twe
hold on justtill she walks out the drive -- once she
hooks upwith the kids, just herein a minutewith the
agent, then wecan -- I can stop. And thenDavid said
Q
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92 , 2after the other.
3
4STEVE:
5 JIM:
6
7 STEVE:
8 JIM:
9
10 Scott or Brian.
11 then we'll have
12 me, you know --
13 STEVE
14 JIM:F
K15 them.
. 16 STEVE:
17 JIM:
18 STEVE:
19 JIM:
20 okay?
21 STEVE:
22 JIM:
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'25
JIM:
9292
31
he wanted you to, you know, do this one-two, you knvw,
So, Sita said she was going to get
Sonja to get the other two kids ready.
Okay, good.
And then so after we bring - once we
hook up on the road --
Right.
- then, then you and I will break and
then you'll,you'll identify I think it's Chrissy and
And you'llbring coats and stuff and
the other children brought over here to
Okay.
- so you can, of course, speak to
Right.
Or their mom can.
Okay.
And, you know, and then we'llget back,
Right. Okay.
Things are going real good and I just
lwant it to continue that way.
Yes. Well, that's whatwe want, too,
so I'm sure it can.
Steve, how many cars am I going to need
,
32
to lineup? I mean, about the children. How many have
we got left, can you tellme?
STEVE: How many cars are you going to need
to lineup to get all the children out that are left
Talking to someone else.! He says he'll[gap] little
by little. He's smiling.
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
delay.
STEVE
it's,it's,you
'JIM:
'STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
talk to you.
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
DAVID:
JIM:
DAVID
what I'msaying?
Oh, okay.
We'llhave to keep doing it that way.
That's fine.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm just, I'm just trying to avoid
I know, I understand, but for us
know --
No, that'sall right.
Yeah.
That's great. Those, those kids --
Okay, just a minute. He wants to
Oh, sure.
Here he is.
All right.
Jim.
David. ~
Jim, see,I'm on you guys side, see
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JIM: Right, you are.
~ DAVID: So, it'slike this. There's alot of
people here, right?
JIM: Right.
DAVID: And you all think that they believe
in me, right?
JIM: Right.
DAVID: But, like it says in theGospel, he
that believeth in me believeth not in me, but believeth
min him that sent me.
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay?
JIM: Um-hum.
' DAVID: Inother words, we cannot receive the
seal by accepting anyman's flesh.We haveto accept
the word,what's writtenin the book. So,the thingofit is is like this. Every, every, youknow, theslower
we makethis, you understand whatI'm saying?
JIM: Umhum.
DAVID: Themore timeit gives the people
here to makea decision, you know.So, youknow, you just may see a few adults comeout, too. '
JIM: Yeah. Oh, yeah, of course.
DAVID: You see what I'm saying?
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Causethese peopleare facing
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1 34
realities that, you know, what they'relearned in the
Prophecies is one thing, but now they're facing'
reality.
JIM: David, you're, you're,you're awise -
man and --
DAVID: Well, what I'msaying is this. I'm
saying that, you know, you know, if I go, then, then I
won't bearound no more.
JIM: Well, listen --
DAVID: And let me say something.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: Cause, you know, I cannot save any
person that respects meas aperson. There's atruth,
you know, cause we'reall equal in the flesh. Flesh
and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: So, you know, once I'mout of the
way, the people are going to have nothing to look tobut what?
JIM: The seven seals?
DAVID: What they believe, you see. So
that's whyI don'twant nomedical attention,you know.
That's whyI'm layingherein a big oldpool ofblood.well, it's dried up now. ~
JIM: I wish you'd take some medical care.
DAVID: Well --
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JIM: I'dlike to be the one to help you get
it. ~
DAVID: I wish, Iwish I'd gottenshot in the
head.
JIM: Oh, David, don'tsay that.
DAVID: Well, here's thedeal, because, you
see, the truth of the word, that's whatthe real
Messiah is.
JIM: Right .
DAVID: You know, Moses is not the Messiah,
and Elijah'snot, you know. Not even the body of
Christ, you know. All men, nomatter what they maybe
with the gift of God, they are vanity. And that'swhy,
you see, when you see even Christ on the cross, you see
that, that God allows men to suffer greatly sometimes,
and that'swhy the spirit of Christ, which is the V
spirit of all mankind, the spirit of Christ is the
spirit of truth. It's not just one man. It's from
Adam all the way to the end, all those who believe in
God andGod's truth.So, so if I'manything -- are you
there, Jim?
JIM: They're hollering at me. Wait a
minute. Where'sthe car? Talking to someone else.!'
Okay. The car's atthe water tower. -
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Are the kids --
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DAVID: The kids are on their way, right?
JIM: The kids are on the way. It's a white
car at the water tower.
DAVID: Okay, it's.a white car. They're on
their way. Okay.
JIM: Okay, they're -the commander passed
on they'regoing to send a white car each time.
DAVID: Okay, it's goingto be a white car.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: With a radio in it, right?
JIM; With a radio in it.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Yes.
DAVID: So, see, see, what I'vealways done
is I'venever --I never professed tobe anything.
except what the word of God says that I show. Now,
see, that way whenI'm nolonger around, them people
are going to be on their own.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: See? That way they are free,without
any human hindrances to make theirdecisions with their
own mind and their own spirit. And that's,that's,
that's aboutas best as a man can do, isn'tit? I
mean, truth is truth, and if we, if we don'twalk in
the truth that we have, then we have to deal with our
own selves, don't we?
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37
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay. So, I'll talk to you more
about this, okay?
JIM: Yeah, okay.
DAVID: Here comes the babies and --
JIM: They're coming out?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Are they wrapped up warm?
DAVID: Yeah, they're, they'rewrapped up
warm. Hey, Steve, Patron's got plenty of diapers,
don't he?They, they'veleft, haven'tthey? Have they
left? Okay, they left.
JIM: Theyleft? Okay. I DAVID: Yeah. Okay, the next, the next two
children that I send out, I'mgoing to send some money
with them so you can, you know, get some stuff that you
need for them and also --
JIM: David, you don'tneed to do it, buddy.
DAVID: Look --
JIM: Don't-- listen, we're takingcare of
these children.
DAVID: This is -- I know.
JIM: You don't haveto worry about that a
bit. _ »
DAVID: These are our children, remember.
JIM: Listen, it's --
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DAVID: We ain't nocheapskates.
JIM: It's great to see things going this
way. I mean, I'm telling you, there's people out here
saying man, you know, this is, this is some guy in here
that's reallydoing this kind of thing. That'swhat,
you know, everybody's saying. And the sheriff, I
talked to him two or three times today on the phone and
he was asking about you and --
DAVID: Harwell or Thorn or --
JIM: Yeah, Thorn. Yeah.
DAVID: Oh, I like that man.
JIM: And he was telling me that, Jim, you
know, just talk to David and let's, youknow, get him
to work with us some more and that you are a true man
of God and --
DAVID: Well --
JIM: -- you know, that kind of stuff. I
mean, he'sa good, good guy and --
DAVID: We just know that I'm-- all we know
now is I just keep rattling my head about seven seals.
JIM: Yeah. A
DAVID: And only God'sgood. But, like I
say, you know, I understand that, you know, by all
means, it'sa cultic situation, it's -- obviously,
there's oneguy in charge, you know, and --
JIM: Well, there's people,there's people
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out here saying that, that David Koresh is a gentle man
and, and it just really -- l
DAVID: I don't pushmyself on anybody,that's for sure.
JIM: They're just, Imean, you're just
giving themasign with these children comingout. You
know, I just don't believe --
DAVID: Okay, one moment.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: Haveyou all left yet? Oh. Where,
where'd youleave themlast? Whered you leavethe
keys atlast? Well, you gocheck withWayne. Talkingto someoneelse.! We'refinding the keys now.
JIM: That'sokay. _ DAVID: Well, here, let me -- wait a second.
Tell the guys we'recoming. Oh, these stupid Levi501's. Itell you. l '
JIM: Oh, man, I'mso --
DAVID: They'rekind of, they're kind
of -- well, it'sgood it'skind of tight cause they
keep circulation. Okay. Sita. Sita. Sita.' Pause!
JIM: David.
DAVID: Jim --
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: -- I'm, I'mputting my trust in you
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now. I'msending this money with Sita. Get that phone
cord and, you know, it could be, you know, the second
or third --'causewe have alot of trouble with our
lines. And if those kids need anything, you know, just
-- especially, you know, if you can get some goat's
milk for the baby, you know --
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: ~ and a little bit of honey.
JIM: Okay .
DAVID: See, we feed our kids very good food,
you know, and that formula's gottoo much carbohydrate
in it and it'sgot too much sugar, glucose. It'snot
really good for the temperaments of young babies.
- JIM: I understand.
DAVID: Whose the name of the man we get our
goat milk from? Huh? Can we send some goat milk then?
Okay, we'regoing to send some frozen goat milk.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: Okay. And okay. Well, we'llsend
them someand they can thaw itout. Talking to
someone else.! And, see, goat milk'scoagulates more
like humanmilk. Anyway,no, nohealth lecturerightnow, okay? But we'regoing to send it to you.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: They --we'll be down there in a
second.
I
41
JIM: Okay. No problem, take your time. I
mean, Iknow you're doingit.
DAVID: Goahead and-- okay. _ JIM: Are they, are they coming? ~
DAVID: Yeah. Looking for the key or gettingthe goat milk and --
JIM: Yeah, okay, take your time. We're,
we're ready.That's noproblem. Hey, you know,alot
of things to get ready, you know. You know, youand I
have lost alot in the last day, you know. '
DAVID: Huh?
JIM: Isaid we've losta lot yesterday, you
know, some friends and people we knew.
DAVID: Yeah. A bad thing happened
yesterday.
JIM: But the great thing is we're resolving
it and we're tryingto work it out, you know, and -~
DAVID: Wish we could have done it you
know, Idid everything, I did everything Icould with
that Robert.
JIM: Iknow.
DAVID: But, you know, if you ever get a
chance to talk to Robert, ask him, say, Robert, what
did the guy show you out of the book?
JIM: Yeah, okay. It's nice to see that
things are going goodand we're just going to try to
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make it work, you know. I, I know Steve feels good and
he workedreal hard to try to resolve it, you know, and
get some of these kids out.
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Sita's just really great, I'vegot to
tell you.
DAVID: She's --
JIM: She's great.
DAVID: Yeah, Ihave a lot of people come
here and, like Isay, you know,the, the, the truth,
you know,if you could haveever metthese people,you
know, they'rethe best people in all the world.
JIM: Yeah. That thing'sstarting to bother
you, isn't it?
DAVID: What's that?
JIM: Your wound. It'sstarting -- is it
sore?
DAVID: Idon'tknow, it'salways sore, yeah.
You know,it's --Ihave to have someone pickup my
legs every once in a while and move them.
JIM: David, you told me yesterday it went in
at your lower abdomen there?
DAVID: Yeah, right around close to the belly
button and went out and hit -- it looked like the
pelvic -- feels like itcracked my -- you know,thatbone that --
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JIM: Yeah, that pelvic bone?
DAVID:
your hips?
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID:
JIM: Right.
DAVID: My rear, you know.
JIM: Oh, man. Where else did
- DAVID: Then I got hit over on
side. Then there's a-- I got hit right
wrist. Took achunk out of my wrist and
I'm lookingat it right now. That blood
than black.
JIM: Did you get that to stop
your wrist?
43
Yeah, you know, the two bones on like
Then it came out my back.
you get hit?
the other
here inmy, my
it's just --
turns blacker
bleeding on
DAVID: Oh, yeah. Yeah, it stopped bleeding.
And the woundsinthe back just -- I don'tknow, they
just -- they ooze and then they stop and
again. It's just, you know --
JIM: Yeah. Mmmm. Are you in
position? If there is one, huh?
they ooze
a comfortable
DAVID: Something like that. It's hardto
explain.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: You know, I kind of cried when I
looked outthe windowand sawall those ATF agentsup
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on the roof.
~JIM: I appreciate you saying that.
DAVID: Well - .
JIM: I'llpass that on to the guys. I meanit.
DAVID: It shouldn't havehappened, Jim.
JIM: I know it. Iknow. I'll passthat on
to them.
DAVID: What can I say, you know?
JIM: Hey, Itold Steve that, you know, I
went bythe hospital and that'skind of what heldme
up, you know, someof that stuff, and I saw a lot of
those guys.And, youknow, they'reall doing good and
they're ingood spiritsand, youknow, they'redoingfine and there's noanimosity in their hearts or
anything. And I told them --
DAVID: Jim, they, they don't knowme. Any
time, anytime -- cause theyknowIdidn'tdo it, but,
in a way, youknow, it'smyresponsibility, you
understand. But the thing of it is is that in the
mindsof men there's just two sides, their sides. And
those guyssit together and theydrink coffee together
and theypractice together,they putbuddies together,theymaydrink a beer together. You know,.there's a
bond there.And theycame downhere doingtheir joband theydidn't havea clear picture, you know, and,
|§
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45
and theycame outto do their job and, andthey didn't,
you know, they didn'tknow how to listen to me.-
You know, I was trying to tell them to, you
know, to get back away, you know.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: There'schildren and women and
children. But, you know,Jim, see, I've gotan
intuition. The prophets of old had visions, didn't
they?
JIM: Yeah. '
DAVID: So, you know, you know, the
boy -- your guys didn't haveachance.
JIM: David, that sounds like it'sreally
hurting you.
DAVID: We-- he knew thatyou werecoming.
I told Robert, I said look, I said they're coming.I
told Robert that.
JIM: Yeah.-
DAVID: Theywere nowherein sight as of yet.
And Robertsat right there lookingat me, and I tried
to look him straight in the eye. You know, I thought
at least what hewould dois tell the guys, you know,
hey, let's,let's slowup abit. -
JIM: Yeah. ~
DAVID: But, no, he went overand hehad to
go back and park his Blazer over there off of the
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corner and all.You know, it didn't haveto happen
this way. H
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: You know, you know, the reason why
you've gotarms is a show of arms, you know, to tell
the bad guys look --
JIM: Hold it. Wait a minute.All right,
just a minute.Hey, I'm sorry,David. They'reaskingme did Sita leaveyet.
DAVID: Has Sita left yet? Hey. Hey.
Hello. I can'tholler, you know. Has Sita leftyet?
Well,get another car then.Unidentified female voice
inbackground indiscernible.!
JIM: Can they just walk out?
DAVID: They, they -- to, to walkall thewaydown to the-- u
JIM: Well, Imean, if she has a problem
getting a car or something, tellme and, you know,
maybe we can move upa little further,if that's --
DAVID: Well, I --
JIM: ButI'd ratherdo it likethis, if we
could.
DAVID: Yeah.That way for sure,you know --
let'ssee, is the white truckout there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALEVOICE: Is the white
truckout there?
DAVID
car.
JIM: I
wherever you want
DAVID
47
Just any, just any car. Just any
guarantee they're safe conduct to I
to drive them.
Who took the keys? Yeah. Okay, take
Misty's car. Okay, Jim.
JIM: Yeah?
DAVID: This is adifferent car. It's brown,
it's kind
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID:
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
for.
DAVID:
right? They've
of shot up a bit.
A, a littlebrown car?
Yeah.
What kind is it, a Chevy or what?
What kind is it? A Ford Escort.
Ford Escort, okay.
S0 --
Ford Escort, brown, small?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, it's real small.
All right, we'll tell them what to look
And they'vegot the keys to that,
got the keys to it, right? Where's
Chanel? Where'sChanel? Isshe taking care of her?
Okay. Please startthem. Start them. Start them.
That's onething, you know, about kids. You know,
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they're so eager to think and --
JIM: So innocent, aren't they?
DAVID: Yeah. They're justsmiling
and I love babies, Jim.
JIM: Yeah. Well, I know you're atrue man
of God to say that. You love those kids.
DAVID: Well, that's onething they always
try to get me on is child abuse, but I don't--
JIM: How could that be?
DAVID: See, what happens is is that --
JIM: How could that be? A man that would do
this for children? How could that be possible?
DAVID: Well, Jim, you see, the way the devil
works, if he can'tget, if he can'tget around the
truth, he'sgot to resort to lies. You see? Now, for
instance, like, like Robin Bonds. You'veheard of
Robin bonds?
JIM: Robin Bonds. I'm not sure I have.
DAVID: She'sone of the girls that left a
message, okay? Now, she, she has a little boy of mine
named Wisdom, you see?
started.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: Let me, let me tell you how thisall
JIM: All right.
DAVID: Okay? I came here in 1981, okay?
II
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49
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: To this place. And there was a woman
here named Lois Roden.I:-I.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: And what happened was is I came here
and the people treated me good and, and Lois, you know,
she was, she was a prophetess and her mission was she
was trying to teach the world thatthe image of God is
male andfemale, youknow, whichis not a popular
doctrine amongst your Evangelicals.
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: And so what happens is is that she
came and I started teaching people things and people
began to say, you know, like wow, how does this young
man know all these things? So, I began to open up some
prophecies and intrigued Lois. And so in the
prophecies it talks about a sign, it talks about --
End of Tape #6!
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TAPE #7
3/1/93
92
2
DAVID: -- was too old, right?
JIM: Right.
DAVID: Okay, God had promised, hadn't he?
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Well, who do you think was the one ~-
JIM: Hey, David, waitone second. I'msorry
to interrupt you. Has Sita already left?
DAVID: Sita left? Sita left? Go check and
see, make sure Sita'sleft. We'vegot to get this
underway. Well, anyway, we'rechecking on that now.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: Anyway, Lois got pregnant and guess
who got the blame, Jim?
JIM: Who?
DAVID: Me. Now, this shows you how human
beings think, okay?
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: First of all, here I was 22, 23 years
old, and here I am giving Lois and allthese people
studies about the power of God and the mystery of
divinity. And Lois gets pregnant.. Okay, now,what
happened was that alot of people rose up. There was
originally branches. It was reallyDavidians, right?
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: And they accused me of going to bed
with her and they accused her of going to bed with me.
7
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And this woman wasvery homelyand 70years old. Youknow what I mean?
JIM: Yeah. Yeah, I do.
DAVID: And so what happened was is that I
said now!listen, there'satruth you've gotto deal
with here. I says your accusationsagainst me,let's
evaluate this. I says what if I did go to bed with
her? And she hasconceived achild, and she doesn't
even haveany seed.I saysyou better watchout your
accusations. Outof oneside ofyourmouthyousay youbelieve in God, thatGod createda child in the womb<of
Sarah. Onthe otherside of yourmouthyou'resaying
that if you're Loisyour a prophet Indiscernible! it
has tobe fromme thatsomebody's beendoing naughtystuff. Okay?
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: They'recrazy, aren'tthey?
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Youknow,amiracle would take place
if a 70~year-old womancould havea baby, wouldn't it?
JIM: Right. I, I guess so, yeah.
DAVID: See? Well, no one should have blamed
me._ Onthe contrary, they should have prayedto God.
Okay. So what happenedwas all hell broke loose, and
hat's when George Rodengot into the scene.
JIM: Right.
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DAVID: And he came in and he's wavingaround
a.357 Reuger, aNighthawk or aMagnum. And he was
telling people he was going to blow my balls off andhe
was going to, youknow, all this kind of stuff.
AJIM: Hey, David?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: They got the kids andthey're on the
way. So, go ahead and get your next two.
DAVID: Okie doke.
JIM: And I think you said it was Scott and
Chrissy?
DAVID: Okay. So, that'sScott and Chrissy
now? Scott and Chrissy? Jim, could you do us afavor?
JIM: Sure.What doyou need?
DAVID: Could you get ourline open again to
where wecould call the radiostation again?
JIM: I, Ican see, David.
DAVID: They shut usoff.
JIM: Yeah. I'll tell you, I'llbe straight
up with you. I, I can see, but Idon'thold thatmuch
hope because there'sso much, you know, the commanders
have to work on it. I'll tell you, there'sabillion
reporters out here. I mean, Ithink they've gotevery
phone line tiedup plus, a lot of times, you know --
DAVID: What'shappened isthey just, they
just disconnected our line towhere we canonly call
AE112
3
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you.
JIM: Yeah. Okay.
DAVID: So, you know --
JIM: Well, I'll see what I can do. I'll
give youwan honest word. I'll seewhat Ican do, but -
DAVID: Are they still going to play that
message?
JIM: What message? Oh, yeah, play the
message on the radio station?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Yeah. Okay, let me, let me get that
taken care of.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Is Phil out there Indiscernible!? If
Ineed him, I'llsend him in. Yeah, okay. Talking to
someone else.! The problem with the telephone, David,
is like this is really a normal procedure, you know, to
keep a -- keep the lifeline going, you know, between
you andme. .
DAVID: Yeah, but our other lines have been
cut off.
JIM: Oh, okay. Yeah, Iunderstand. I
understand. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me see if --
David.
DAVID: Yeah?
1
92
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6
JIM: Hold on just a second.
DAVID: Where'smy --where's little Koresh
at?
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: You'vegot all
four kids.in that house?
JIM: No, I've gottwo kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: --transition.
Unidentified voices in background not discernible.!
JIM: Hey, David.
DAVID: Huh?
JIM: I need youto help me out on this.
DAVID: Go ahead.
JIM: Okay. The commanders got, got the two
kids and they want to change this room I'm in.You
know, I'vegot to move becauseI'min this little bitty
roomand I don'thave any room,and I've gotall these
people in here. And so what they wanted me to do is
move across the way. I'm outat the airport. You know
where the airport is?
DAVID: Right, yeah.
JIM: And they want me to move across to this
other building where there'smore room, you know, and
it'll be quiet.
DAVID: What'syour number? .
JIM: They'll do -- I'll call you with it and
tell you, you know, no problem. But what I'd liketo
,
11
7
do before we take a break is just to, you know, get
those other two kids ready and, you know, send another
car and get that. And then maybe we could take a
little break, and then once I get to the new place,
I'll get back with you.
DAVID: Okay. Are they going to -- well,
like you say, then when the next car comes, can they,
can they bring us in new lines so we don'tget cut off
as much?
JIM: Yeah, I'm workingon that. I'm working
on that. Yeah, I want to work on it. I'll see what I
can do for you.
DAVID: Okay. Now, now, now, now, remember,
I gave $1,000 to those guys, and I want you to get what
$1,000.
JIM: Oh, hey, don'tworry about it.
DAVID: Jim, you've gotto -- I'm serious.
JIM: Hey,let megive - you gota pencil?
I'm goingto give you this new phone number.
DAVID: Okay. Hey, Rach, Rachel, could you
take a, take a note pad and a piece of paper? I'vegot
a number for you? Where's thepencil?
JIM: Unidentified male voice in background
not discernible.! Really? -
DAVID: Where'sthe pad with --do you see
it?
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JIM: Can we work that, we can help?
Talking to someone else.!
DAVID: Did you get the -- okay, here you
are, take -- put iton that there -- put iton that
pad. Talking to someone else.! What is itnow, Jim?
JIM: It's 799 --
DAVID: Seven nine nine --
JIM: -- 0545.
DAVID: -- oh five four five.
JIM: Okay?
DAVID: Seven nine nine --
JIM:Oh five four five.
DAVID: -- oh five four five.
JIM:Now, I'll call you first, okay? And
so -- until we know it'sclear.
DAVID: Okay. All right.
JIM: We'regoing to send the other car to
the water tower.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Okay, so, can you get Scott and
Chrissy?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Cause what I don't wantto happen is
they're switchingmy room and we'reinthe middle of --
and the kids, you know, cause I've gotto kind of, you
know, get off for a few minutes.
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92
DAVID: Okay, will do.
JIM: So tell --
DAVID: Call me up as soon
there.
»JIM: Yeah, but let's hang
these other two kids in the car, and
we'll getoff, okay? Cause - yeah.
Who have you got there, Sonja?
DAVID: Probably. They're
JIM: Oh, Sita's not back?
DAVID: No.
9
as the car gets
on until we get
then we'll, then
You've got -~
not back yet.
JIM: Okay. All right, let, let, let me, let
me call you in aminute.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: I need to, I need to work this out with
the commanders 'cause I,I wantto, you know, I want
Indiscernible! kids in the driveway
ought to talk,you know.
and you and me
DAVID: Kids in the driveway?
JIM: I mean I don'twant that to happen.
You knowwhatI'm saying? I don't.wantSita walking
down the driveway and we're noton the phone.
DAVID: Oh, okay.
JIM: You know what I mean
DAVID: Okay.'
JIM: And we have the two children. They're
~
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10
on their way here safely, okay?
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: And I'll just --we'll just break of
for a few minutes ~
w DAVID: Okay.
JIM: - then I'll get back with you.
DAVID: Okay. Bye, Jim.
JIM: Okay, Buddy, I'll see you.
1' i* 1'
JIM: Do we have transportation over there?
Do we have transportation to --no, we're goingto get
them over two kids out first, aren't we?
DAVID: Good afternoon. May I help you?
Hello?
1' ii i
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Hello?
JIM: Hello, Yvette?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Huh?
JIM: This is Jim.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Okay, wait one
moment. Do you want to speak to David?
JIM: Yeah, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Okay.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: How you doing, Buddy?
DAVID: It's a miracle.
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11
JIM: Have you got those other kids ready?
DAVID: Are the kids ready? Chrissy and
who's next?Chrissy and Scott. l
JIM: Chrissy and Scott, yeah.
»DAVID: Got to - were you calling from the
new number?
JIM: No, not yet. I'm goingto get -- move
over there in a few minutes. Iwanted to get this done
first.
DAVID: Are they sending -~ oh. Are they
playing the message on the radio? Unidentified male
voice in background not discernible.!
JIM: He'stalking to one of his buds, asked
him if theyplayed the message on the radio.
Unidentified male voice in background not
discernible.! Yeah, yeah. Could you tell me what time
they're going to do the movement, so Ican tell him --
Unidentified male voice in background not
discernible.! .0kay.
DAVID: Who? What? My grandmother? Turn.it
on.
JIM: He thinks his grandmother is on the
radio or the TV or something.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE VOICE: Yeah. ~
DAVID: Did you hear that, Jim?
JIM: No, I didn't, David.
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DAVID: My grandmother is on an interview.
JIM: Where?
DAVID: I'mtrying to get the details. I was
always told by my family that, thatI'm kind of
strangeg
JIM: Where'syour grandmother live?
DAVID: She lives down in Chandler.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Chandler'sclose to Tyler.
JIM: Yeah, yeah, Iknow where it is. That's
pretty country over there.
DAVID: Oh, yeah. I love that country. I
used to fish on Lake Tyler --
JIM: Oh, did you? Yeah. They'vegot a
little train runs down that way.
DAVID: How do you spell your last name
again, Jim?
JIM: C-A-V -- C-AV --
DAVID: All right, just a second. C --
JIM: --A-V --
DAVID: Wait a minute. The pen just died on
me. Looks like a brand-new one, too.
JIM: Hmmmm.
DAVID: Canyou all give me another pen,
please? Sherry, try to get this to write. I need --
Sherry? Sherry'snot behindme, is she? Oh,okay
p
92
she's-- yeah,yeah. C-A-V? C-A-V?
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: I'llconnect it
off.
JIM: David?
- DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Did you get your pencil?
DAVID: Yeah. C-A --
JIM: CAV-AN-A-U-G-H.
DAVID: A-N --
JIM: A-U -C-A-V-A-NA-U-G-H.
DAVID: -- AU-G-H. Okie doke.
JIM: Is she getting the kids ready?
DAVID:
yet?
Pause!
Yeah. Are tho
JIM: David?
DAVID: Yeah.
se other kids there
JIM: Are you okay, Buddy?
DAVID:
y JIM:I
Are thekids -- I
DAVID:
JIM: I
DAVID:
some noise?
Yeah, I'mall right.
just heard you
don't hear the
You don't hear
don't hear the
Oh, well, you
groan a little bit.
kids.
the what?
kids.
all kids want to make
JIM: Laughing! That's usuallynot a
92 92.
14
problem, kids making noise.
DAVID: Oh, there's babies all in here,
hollering. I keep looking atthem the last, last time
_JIM: Yeah. You'll see them again.
ADAVID: Oh, I know. I promise.
JIM: Who'shelping them, Sita or Sonja or
what?
DAVID: Is Sita --yeah, they're back.
JIM: Is Sita there?
DAVID: Where's Sita?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: --
DAVID: She can come here.
JIM: Yeah, let me talk to her a minute.
DAVID: Allright.
Sita: Jim?
JIM: Hi, Sita.
Sita: Yes?
JIM: That went smooth, okay?
Sita: Oh, yes, fine. I just forgot one
thing to give to the guys.
JIM: Okay.
Sita: But I'll give them the next round.
JIM: That's great, that's great.Now, are,
are these next two ready cause I've gotthe car there
waiting, so Iwanted to kind of get them out.
Sita: Okay. Is there ladies watching the
Q
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baby?
JIM: Yes. Oh, yes, absolutely. I'vegot.two ladies here.
Sita: So you Indiscernible! I, I gave you
the milkaand the carob. Iforgot to get the honey.
JIM: Yeah. Give me the info on these next
two. Is it -- is this Scott and Chrissy Mabb?
Sita: Yes, Scott andChrissy Mabb.
JIM: And how old are they?
Sita: How old are you? Eleven --
JIM: Okay. '
Sita: -- and seven.
JIM: Okay.
Sita: Scott is 11.
JIM: Okay .
Sita: And Chrissy is seven.
JIM: Okay. All right, good. Why, why don't
you go ahead and get their coats and let them kiss and
hug there and say goodbye and take them out because the
car isat the water tower?
Sita: Okay.
JIM: Okay? And listen.
Sita: Yeah?
JIM: And then -~ I told David I'mgoing to
have to get off the phone for a few minutes, but I'll
be back and, you know, I'lllet you talk to them and
all.
Sita:
16
Okay. You want to talk to David
before you go out?
JIM: Yeah, let me have David. You walk them
out right now, okay?
Sita:
JIM:
get the word.
Sita:
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID
telephone lines
JIM:
DAVID
the radio, that
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID:
Hey, guy, don't
JIM:
Okay.
Cause the car's waiting andI need to
Okay.
Okay, Sita. Thanks.
Hello.
Hey, Buddy, she, she does agood job.
Oh, so they're going to open our
up now?
No, I haven't got the word onthat.
Oh, this is what they were saying on
Oh, really?
Yeah.
histen, thisScott, he's11 yearsdld?Yeah.
Yeah. He must be abig boy.
He's, he'skind of small. He's thin.
worry about it, okay? "
Yeah, we'll take care of him. Tell him
17
DAVID: Hey, you can take your motorcycle,
too. You be sure and tellthem that one of the
motorcycles here is yours, okay? All right.
JIM: We move before we -- okay.
-DAVID:
that -- when this
yours, all right?
I'll be sure and tell him
is all over that the motorcycle's
Okay. All right. Love you. Bye.
Come here and give me a kiss. Love you. Remember all
Itaught you, okay? And you'regoing to be a good girl
now, right? --
it.
DAVID:
JIM:
DAVID:
the kids to you.
JIM:
DAVID:
when you get this
you open this up,
in it, all right?
yeah, I'mgoing to, I'm goingto lick
Okay. All right. Now, Jim --
Yeah.
-- make sure these guys are bringing
Yeah.
So you make sure you -- when you,
that I'mgiving to you, you know, and
Iwant you to tellme exactly what's
JIM: You've got it, I will.
DAVID:
gotten there yet?
Okay. All right.Have the kids
JIM: No, uh-uh. They sure haven't.
DAVID: They haven'tgotten there yet. She's
getting them ready.
0-
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0
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r"
k
_ 1a
JIM: Hey, David, I really want to thank you.
I appreciate this. ~
DAVID: Oh, well, I appreciate it.
JIM: You know --
a DAVID: I've alwayshad faith in mankind, you
know, that you don'thave to always be so beastly.
JIM: Well --
DAVID: You know?
JIM: --you're, you're awise man.
DAVID: I figured, I figured you all would
turn back when I told you there was women and children
here, but, you know --
JIM: Are they coming? Are they --got their
coats on?
DAVID: Yeah, they're getting all ready.
JIM: Getting all ready? Here, give me Sita
again. Is she there?
DAVID: Yeah, she's here.
JIM: Okay, let me talk to her.
Sita: Hello?
JIM: Sita?
Sita: Yes.
JIM: Okay, are they ready?
Sita: Yes.
JIM: Okay, you going out now?
Sita: Are they playing the --
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f 92
JIM:
Sita:
JIM:
play it again.
Sita:
JIM:
okay?
Sita:
JIM:
19
We already played it.
We didn't hear it.
Oh. Well, we played it before. I'll
I mean, I will.
Thanks a lot.
Okay. Just take them out to the car,
Okay.
Okay.
Pause!
JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:' Losingthem.
What's happened?They're notthere. Have you got
them? Dead. Okay. Okay.
JIM: David? David? V
JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I've lost him.
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
**i*
Hello.
Hey, Steve?
Yes.
This is Jim.
Hi, Jim.
Hey, that phone just went --
Okay.
-- off on me. . '
TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Where are they
at now? So, have they been -- the, the other group has
I
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20
been picked up, right, the two?
JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Have they picked
them up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The first two,
yes. A
JIM: Yeah, the first twowe got.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: But Sita was coming out right now with
STEVE: Yeah. I guess they're waiting to
hear that announcement onthe radio.
JIM:Oh. We played it, though, a while--
we'l1 play itagain.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: I mean I'll play it twicefor you.
JustI've got the car sitting there and --
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: -- Iwanted to get them, you know.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: He sayshevd
like to get them. He's goingtoplay it twice for us.
JIM: Steve?
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: Did Sita take them out?
STEVE: Notyet. She'sstanding right here.
JIM: Oh, okay. i
STEVE: She'sright here. They're readyto
§
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21
go.
JIM: Ready to go. The car is waiting.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: So just have her go. Just go on out.
* STEVE: There are four to six guys
camouflaged right now down at the barn. Honestly, no joke. H
JIM: Four to six guys at the barn?
STEVE: Yes.
JIM: I don't knowwhere that is. Is that
the back barn?
STEVE: Yes, yes. It's kind of ablock, a
cement block building.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: They'reon the property.
JIM: Oh, on the property. Okay.
STEVE: They'reon the property.
JIM: Okay. Let me, let me check on this,
okay?
STEVE: All right. Okay.
JIM: Hold on one second.
STEVE: All right.
JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Hey, Steve,
Steve said that there's four guys at the barn. Check
on that.
JIM: Okay, we're checking.
I1
22
STEVE: All right.
JIM: The barn --
STEVE: Just hold on one minute.
JIM: Okay. Hey, Steve.
* STEVE: On the other side of the fence then,
there's twoor three guys crouched.
JIM: Oh, which fence now are we talking
about?
STEVE: Right in the back.
JIM: Well, I'll check on it,
but --
STEVE: Okay. But right on the property,
sure, you know, I mean --
JIM: I'll check on it, but, look, Sita has
guaranteed safe conduct.
STEVE: Right, I realize that. But, you
know, they, they always get nervous when, you know -- I
don't understandwhy those guys are doing that. We
want to keep right on moving with this.
JIM: Right. Well, go ahead and send Sita
out. The car is waiting. In the meantime, I'll, I'll
follow up on that. But, you know, if it's wayout in
the back, you know, I'll check on it.
STEVE:Okay .
JIM: And, you know, we'll getit fixed. But
go ahead and send her out. Oh, hey, Steve. Steve,
Steve.
there.
gave th
there.
of peop
back an
people
and --
23
Are they coming?
STEVE: Yeah, they're coming.
JIM: Okay. I just found out --
STEVE: Yeah.
- JIM: -- you'reright. There were people
They were police. I just found out, we just
em the word to move back.
STEVE: Okay, thank you.
JIM: I'msorry that happened.
STEVE: Okay, I believe that.
JIM: They were, were not supposed to be
STEVE: Thank you much.
JIM: It was a, you know, -- there was a lot
le involved and, you know, communications --
stave: Right.
JIM: But we got the word for them to move
d- - yeah, we're havinga shift change.
STEVE: Pardon?
JIM: We'rehaving a shift change.
STEVE: I see.
JIM: And, you know, we've gota lot of
here and everybody's movingaround, you know,
STEVE: Right.
JIM: -- I told David we're-- they're
2 4
kicking us out of this building we're in.We've gotto
go across the alleyway here to another place.
STEVE: Oh, no. Really?
JIM: It's no problem. It's just more room,
you know?
STEVE = Right .
JIM: And then we'rehaving a shift change
and there'speople moving all around. You know what I
mean. So, I'm sorry it happened, but --
STEVE: Right . ' .
JIM: --we moved themback. Did Sita, did
Sita leave?
STEVE: Just a minute, let me see cause she
went down.. 4 "
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: Yes, she did leave.
JIM: She did leave? Okay.
STEVE: Yeah, she left from up -- she left
from where I'm athere.
JIM: Okay. All right. Here's what we're
going to do. We'regoing to --
STEVE: He says, he doesn't --he says, I
don'twantto rush these kids out of here.
JIM: Oh, no, no. No, no. Here's what we're
going to do. I'mgoing to wait till they make the
hook-up.
25
s'rEvE=Okay. , :
JIM: Okay? And then I'm goingtohave to --
I'm goingtotell you we got them safe, and then I'm
going to have to get off cause they'reswitching my
office. Okay?
STEVE: Okay. How long will that be then
Indiscernible! return?
JIM: You know, half hour, 45 minutes.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: And, and just take abreak and, you
know, maybe you and David can get some time and talk
and --
STEVE: Yeah, he said, you know, he was
giving up, he said, the most precious thing in life,
JIM: Iknow.
STEVE: Yeah, these women. They are, the
women are giving up, you know, their most, you know, it
came from their body.
JIM: I understand and --
STEVE: I knowyou do. Are you afather,
too?
JIM: Yes, Ihave two children.
STEVE: Oh, that's good. Yeah, you would
understand. It'shard for himtolet them go.
JIM: Well, he'snotgiving them up. I mean,
he --
2 6
STEVE: Well, you know what I mean, though,
just even for a,you know --
JIM: A little while, yeah.
STEVE: Exactly. I know, but you know how
mothers are.
JIM: You, guys visit and talk and --
STEVE: Exactly, right.
JIM: -- while we take abreak, you know.
I'm hopingmaybe David'sministry will go on and I want
you guys to talk about that and us resolving this
thing.
STEVE: Right .
JIM: You know, we can do it --
STEVE: Right .
JIM: -- and he, and he needs -- Steve, I'm
goingto tell you something -- where you can help me --
he needs some medical attention. I'm really worried
about him.
STEVE: Oh, I've beentelling him that,but
he keeps on saying he's fine.
JIM: Yeah. Well, you, you talk to him forme and -- -
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: -- and just we're concerned. I mean,
an infection or something, you know.
STEVE: Right .
/
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JIM:We're just concerned about him. I
mean, you know --
STEVE: Yeah, I know. I was after him even
an hour ago.
- JIM: Yeah, we,we, we,we've gotenough
tragedy. We don't wantany more.
STEVE: Right .
JIM: And, you know, you think about it and
talk with him.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM:We'll try to get him --
STEVE: All right. You want to call me back
then? '
JIM: I just wanted to give you the word we
had the children.
STEVE: Okay, so I'llhangon.
JIM: Just hang on for just a second.
STEVE: All right.
JIM:I'm going to check and see if they've
got them. _
STEVE: Right. Okay.
JIM: Hold on one second -- all right,
they're stillcoming I guess. I guess they'rewalking
down or something. Since -- Unidentified male voice
in background not discernible.!
STEVE: Jim, I'm justgoing to --
92 f 92
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28
JIM: Go ahead.
STEVE: Pardon? I've got another --I got a
call and I'm goingto just talk to someone here.
JIM: You've got a call?
A STEVE:Yeah.
JIM: What is it, a reporter or something?
STEVE: Somebodythat I guess we knew from
quite a while ago, you know, one that was here. You
know, are you okay and all that?
JIM: Oh, one of your, one of your people?
STEVE: No. Apparently somebody that knew of
us and, you know, it's just like some of these people
are calling the radio, well, you know, do the right
thing, they say, and, you know, say well, you know,
that's exactly what we'vegot to do.
JIM: Yeah. Okay, well --
STEVE: Can Icall you back? Or, wait, I'm
going to go talk to him.
JIM:Well, wait just a second, because I
wanted to - let'sget the kids done and then I'll get
right off, okay? You know what Imean?
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: I just want to hook them up and then,
and then we'll get off for a while. '
STEVE: Just a minute.
JIM: Yeah, Sita, Sita's out there.
f 92
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29
Unidentified male voice inbackground not
discernible.!
JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: DO we, do we
have them?
* UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No. They haven't
left the compound?
JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: They haven't?
DAVID: Okay, they're - Jim?
JIM: Hey, David.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Where's Sita?
DAVID: I'mlistening to this Dobbs guy try
to explain away everything. .
JIM: Where's Sita at?
DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Where's Sita,
is she downstairs now?
JIM: Okay, they're getting intheir --
DAVID: They're in the car?
JIM: Yeah, Sita's getting in her car, I
think.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Yeah, okay. That's what Steve said.
Okay. '
DAVID: Well, you --the guys down at the
tower will probably see them. Where I'm at,Ican't
see them.
ch
30
JIM: Yeah,okay. Okay. And thecar's
waiting on them. Listen, as soon as we hook themup,
okav, which is going to be in just a few --two
minutes, I'vegot to get off because they'reswitching
my office. Okay?
DAVID: All right.
JIM: And I'llcall you back. We'rehaving a
big shift change. There'sall kinds of police, you
know, that worked all night and agents that are moving
around, ambulances, you know. You know, everybodys
got to go to bed, you know.
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: You can appreciate that.
DAVID: Oh, yeah.
JIM: So everybody's movingaround and
they're kickingme across the alley, so --
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: -- I'll call you back, you know, in
about 45 minutes. But I want to give you the word
we've gotthe children first.
DAVID: Okie doke.
JIM: And then, and then we'llget the
children to talk to you whenI get back on, you know,
later.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Okay?
I 92 92
31
DAVID: Okay,I'll letyou gonow.
JIM: Hold on, let metell you I'vegot them
first. I don'twant to have --I want to make sure
I've gotthem, sothat --yeah Indiscernible! says--
what? They didn't comeout yet.
DAVID T0 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Where are they
at? Where are the kids at? Have theyleft yet?
JIM: Okay. Yeah. David?
DAVID: Yeah. _
JIM: I think they're outfront. Tell
somebody to tell them to come on.
DAVIDTO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Tell them co
go ahead and go down. Unidentified female voice in
background not discernible.!
JIM: Man, you're hurting, huh?
DAVID:Yeah, Jim, it, it hurts.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: I won't lieto you.
JIM: Well, think about -- I want you to
think about megetting you some medical attention. I.
want you to think about it.
DAVID: I'mtelling you, you've gotall these
guys out there that are just telling everybody that I'm
a cult leader.
JIM: Well, that wasn'tus. You know --
DAVID: As long as I'm alive, I'm acult
' 1415
32
leader.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Now, when I'mgone, see, then I'll be
removed out of the way and people will be free to think
their own thoughts.
JIM: Well, I don'twant you to be gone. I,
I want to -- I'd liketo see your ministry carryon and
I'd like --
DAVID: My ministry -- I've beenin it ever
since 1985 full force. One out of a thousand people,
okay?
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: One out of a thousand are interested
in the Bible enough to learn --
JIM: David, I'm sorry.They're coming,
Sita's comingright now.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Okay? I wantto give you the word in
just a minute. I just wantyou to think about, think
about somemedical attention. Talk to Steve. He, he's
your right-hand man.
DAVID: I'vethought aboutit.JIM: He'syour right-hand man.
DAVID: Well --
JIM: Listen, you can trust him. You guys
talk about it during the break, okay? For me, for me.
92 I92 92
o
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92
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92_
33
I'm asking you to do it.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: I'm concerned about you.
DAVID: Yeah. See, you don't understand.
JIM:
concerned about
Listen, Icare about you. I'm
you.
DAVID: Iknow you care about me.
JIM: I was able to get --
DAVID: Iknow the system cares about me.
JIM:NO --
DAVID: And Iknow --look, I've --look, in
1988 Iwas arrested, all right?
JIM:
DAVID:
JIM:
DAVID
a confrontation
those sheriff's
into get me, we
them in, cause
Um-hum.
Let's get real now.
Yeah.
In 1988, we were out here, we got in
and Ipraised the Lord when Iheard
cars coming, okay? So, when they came
put our weapons down and we was waving
George is the one that was paying Mr.
Rambo. Now, when they came in, the guys got all out
and says come on over and let'stalk.All right, no
problem. They were aiming on us.Once we put all our
weapons down, we came over.
Isaw Mr.Thorn. Isaid, you know, how you
doing, Mr. Thorn? He kind of frowned at me a little
I
92
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34
bit, you know. See,those guysknew wewas outhere.
Anyway, they said now, boys, is thisall you got? Yes,
sir.Yes, sir. Then all of a sudden, get on the
goddam ground - and they startedkicking atus.A JIM: Hmmm. I
DAVID: And there was antsall over the
ground. We got bit by red ants,you know. I mean,
talking about -- now, you know, that's,that'snot
right because they were supposed to have come out here
and dealt with George. They should, they should have
never sent us.
JIM: Yeah, yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: What'sgoing on
now?
DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: A flag? What
about it? Okay, put up -- Well, go ahead and put up
our flag. Yeah.
JIM: You know, I remember - you were
talking about'88. Hello? David?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Oh, you okay? I want you and Steve to
talk and, and think about getting some medical
attention, okay? I just want you to think about it. I
was able to get all theseagents to the hospital and
get them taken care of, okay?
DAVID: Uh-huh.
O O
35
JIM: Andeverybody thatgot thereis good,and someof those guys were really tore up. Some of
themwere tore up worse than you and they're all doing
good. And I, and I'd liketo - you to think about it,
okay? *
DAVID: :Yeah.
JIM: I mean, it just concerns --
DAVID: I've thought about it.
JIM: Itconcerns meand I want you to talk
to Steve about it, you know. Will you promise me
you'll talk to Steve or --
DAVID: Well, I've beentalking to him all
the time.
JIM: Well, Imean, but about you getting
some medical care. Get his advice, you know, think
about it, and, you know, it'sa wise man who can change
his mind and a strong man who can change his mind. And
I think you're bothof those.
DAVID: Well - -
JIM: You know, only a weak man, you know,
couldn't changehis -- '
DAVID: The seven seals.
JIM: There'sso muchinside you. Imean,
you can do it., v
DAVID: The seven seals, Jim.
JIM: Yeah, Iknow, David.
/'
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36
DAVID = Okay .
JIM: I just, I just don'twant you to suffer
any more.
DAVID: Well, the children are there, right?
JIM: Okay, they're almosttogether, the
agent said. Just a minute.
_ DAVID: Okay. Well, let me let you go, and
give me a call back, okay?
JIM: No, I want to get them just -- I don't
want any mistakes. If something wereto happen, you
know, you,you guyswould feelbad andI'd feelworse.
So, let'sget them together. I'll give you that word
and then, you know --
DAVID: Okay. Well, let me let you have the
phone with someone elsereal quick so I can get do --
I've gotto do some moving around.
JIM: Okay, David. Yeah, sure.
JAMIE: Hello?
JIM: Who's this?
_ JAMIE: Jamie.
JIM: Jamie, this is Jim. .
JAMIE: Oh, hi, Jim.
JIM: How you doing?
JAMIE: Pretty good.
JIM: Okay.
JAMIE: I think he's just moving -- getting
37
himself up here, trying to move around.
JIM: Oh, that's okay. I know he's hurting
real bad. Sita's downthere with the kids and we're
trying to just --
A JAMIE:Okay.
JIM: -- get you the word.
JAMIE: Yeah. Okay, here, here, he's back.
JIM: Okay .
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Hey,Dave. Didyou getmorecomfortable? Oh, Dave.
DAVID: Sorry about that.
JIM: Hey, you okay?
DAVID: Two things I don'twant to do, and
that's laugh and cough.
JIM: We got the kids. They're safe. We got
the kids.
DAVID: Yeah, it's myarm -- thanks. Go
ahead.
JIM: You hear?
DAVID: Yeah .
JIM: We'vegot the kids, okay? Everything's
great. We'regoing to take a break. It'll be good for
you, be good for everyone. H
DAVID: Yeah, I need to rest up, get my
energy going.
I
92
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92¢
,-
92
JIM: Hey, I love you, Buddy. Now hang in
there.
DAVID: Okie doke. Catch you later, Jiw.
JIM: All right, bye.
a DAVID = Bye.
End of Tape #7.!
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURERBUREAU OFALCOHOL, TOBACCO& FIREARMS
TAPE #8
3/1/93
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #1=When'd you
call him back? Call him back?
2
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: As a matter Of
fact, that little speaker over there -- seeif it comes
on here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: That's what
I'm trying to do here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: Check and see
if you can - _
RECORDED MESSAGE: If you'd like to make a
call, please hang up and try again. If you needhelp,
hang up and then dial your operator
Unidentified voices in the background not
discernible.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #1:We'regoing
have the speaker set up -- secondary --
Unidentified voices in the background not
discernible.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
test, 1, 2, 3. Test, test.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
2, 3.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
SPEAKER
SPEAKER
SPEAKER
SPEAKER
SPEAKER
SPEAKER
#
#2:
#3:
#2.
#3.
#2.
Hello, hell
Test, test,
Hello, hell
Test, test,
Hello, hell
Test, test,
CO
O.
Q.
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test, 1, 2, 3. Test, test.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER
getting --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER
2, 3. Go ahead. Test, test, test,
doing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER
speaker?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER
- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER
test, test, 1, 2, 3. Okay.
2
3
They're really
Test, test, 1,
3. How you
--on that
Yeah.
Test, test,
Unidentified voices in background not
discernible.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello. Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Something wrong
with this phone again. Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Who am I
speaking to? Can't hearyou. Can you call back?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, but wait a
minute.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:'I can't hear
you.
UNIDENTIFIEDMALE SPEAKER: okay. Okay, I'll
calllback.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Hello.
JIM: Hello, this is Jim.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Okay,justaminute.
a JIM: Sure.
DAVID: Hello.
JIM: David, howyoudoing, Buddy?
DAVID: I'mall right.
JIM: Listen, I've got-- some of the
children Ithink just came in and --
DAVID: All right.
JIM: -- I'll havethem here in just a
second. A littleblonde-headed gal.
DAVID: Chrissy.
JIM: Chrissy, that's it. Yeah.
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Yeah, she's adorable.
DAVID: You haven't seennothing yet.
JIM: She'sreally adorable. Ithink they'rebringing her over.
DAVID: Okay, hold on a second.
DAVID TOUNIDENTIFIED PERSON:Get Kathy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Hello.
JIM: Kathy? Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Hold on a
second, okay?
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JIM: Okay.
FEMALE SPEAKERTO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Would
you go get Kathy'sbrother, please?
JIM: Come over here. Are you Chrissy? I'm
Jim. How you doing? Okay, you want to talk, you want
to talk to your mom?
CHRISSY: Yeah.
JIM: Okay, just a minute. Hello.
Pause! _ .
JIM: Hello. Hello. They laid the phone
down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Excuse me. I'm
going right over here with the cord. Want to put it
around in front of you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.
KATHY: Hello.
JIM: Hello.
KATHY: Yes?
JIM: Yeah, this is Jim. Who'sthis?
KATHY: Hi, this is Kathy.
JIM:Okay, Kathy. IsChrissy your little
girl?
KATHY: Yes.
JIM: Okay, hold on. She's righthere.
KATHY: Okay.
JIM: Okay.
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good?
him? Did
6
CHRISSY: Hi, Mommy.
KATHY: Hi. How you doing?
CHRISSY: Fine.
KATHY: That'sgood. They, they treating you
CHRISSY: Yeah. -
KATHY: Okay. Love you.
CHRISSY: I love you, too.
KATHY: Okay.
CHRISSY: I'mall right.
KATHY: Okay.
CHRISSY: I think that was Brian.
KATHY: Brian said hi, Chrissy. Did you hear
you hear him?
CHRISSY: Yeah.
KATHY: Okay. I love you.
CHRISSY: I love you, too.
KATHY: Always.
CHRISSY: Huh?
KATHY: Always. Okay?
CHRISSY: Okay.
KATHY: Anything else? Chrissy.
CHRISSY: What's your name?
KATHY: Huh? _ W
CHRISSY: Jim wants to talk to you.
KATHY: Okay. Thank you. I love you. Bye-
7
bye. "
JIM: Kathy.
KATHY: Yeah.
JIM: She's fine.
»KATHY: Great.
JIM: And the Health and HumanServices
people arereal good. They're lookingafter her. Now,was there anybody you wanted us to call or --
KATHY: Scott'sgot the address andthe phonenumber of their dad.
JIM: Okay. Scott's gotit?
KATHY: Um-hum.
JIM: Oh, with him. And he'llbe out? Yeah,
he's comingover shortly.
KATHY: He, he's withChrissy. Well, he went
out with Chrissy.
JIM: Yeah, okay. How you doing?
KATHY: Fine.
JIM: Not hurt?
KATHY: Oh, no.
JIM: Okay. Iappreciate you workingwith uson it and sending the children out.
KATHY: I have two more coming out and want
them to meet up with Chrissy and Scott. _
JIM: Oh,absolutely. Wouldyou tell metheir names?
,
-_
K
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KATHY:
JIM:
KATHY
this week.
A JIM:
Jake?
KATHY
JIM:
minute.
KATHY
JIM:
SCOTT
JIM:
SCOTT
JIM:
KATHY:
SCOTT:
KATHY:
SCOTT:
KATHY:
out there, huh?
SCOTT:
KATHY:
: And Brian is -- well, he'll be three
8
Jake Mabb and Brian Schroeder.
Okay.
Oh, Brian'sthree. Okay.And how is
Jake is nine.
Nine, okay. Now, hold on just a
Okay.
What's yourname?
Scott.
Scott. Is your mom Kathy?
Yes.
Okay. Kathy, here's Scott. Hold on.
Okay.
Hi.
How you doing?
Fine.
Okay. They'vegot a lot of people
Yeah.
All right. Make sure they take care
of you and you take care of her. -
SCOTT: Okay.
KATHY: Remember what I said, God sits on the
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throne.
SCOTT
KATHY
SCOTT
~*KATHY
loves you.
SCOTT
KATHY
JIM:
JIM:
JIM:
Services people
right down here
JIM:
KATHY:
IJIM:
phone number?
with us, okay?
KATHY:
9
: Yeah.
: Ilove you.
: Ilove you, too.
: Okay. You don'tforget that. David
Okay?
: Okay. Jim wants to talk to you.
: Okay. Ilove you. Bye-bye.
Kathy?
KATHY: Yes.
Okay, they're fine.
KATHY: Great.
And we'll let the Health and Human
take care of them, okay?
KATHY: If you can get ahold of their dad as
soon as possible, I'm sure he will be glad to drive
and get them, because --
Where does he live?
Lives in South Dakota. It'll
probably take him a day to get here.
Okay, Scott, do you have your dad's
Let me see. Okay, Kathy, we'regoing to
work this out and we're goingto try to resolve this.
So Iwant you to hang in there with us and try to work
I
Yeah, Iknow you've beenreal good
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with everything.
JIM: And, you know,I just want youguys tohang in there. We'll do --
KATHY: Oh,yeah, we're-- morale'shigh.We're alldoing good.
JIM: Great. That's super.But we'regoingto get a good resolution to this, okay?
KATHY: I know.
JIM: And, let's see,I need to talk to David
about, well, I guess the next children wewant to send
out and -- well, would that be Jake and Brian?
KATHY: Are Jake and -- David, are Jake and
Brian going next? Yes.
JIM: Okay. Well, you may start getting themready.
KATHY: They'reready.
JIM: Oh, they're ready.
KATHY: Got to put Brian's shoeson.
JIM: Okay.
KATHY: And his coat and --
JIM: Okay.
KATHY: -- he'll beready.
JIM: Tell me when-- I'llgive you a few
minutes, youknow, tokiss themand hugthem andallthat.
KATHY: Yeah,we're doingall that right now.
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JIM: Okay, that's great.
KATHY: Justwhenever youplay the message3 again, we'll beready.
4JIM: Play themessage again.Absolutely.5We'regoing to get that done right now.
6 KATHY: Okay.
7 JIM: What -- how, howmany morekids are _8 there?
9 KATHY: Oh, there'sa lot.
10 JIM: Yeah? Ten, twelve, fourteen?
11 KATHY: I, I,I don't evenkeep trackany12 more. I don'tknow howmany haveleft, I don't.know,13 you know --
14JIM: Yeah, okay. Okay. Well, I'm kindof
15 concernedabout David. I knowhe wasbleeding real bad16and I'mjustreal worried about him.
17KATHY: Yeah, he'spretty bad.
18JIM: Yeah. I'mreal worried about that. I19don't want him t o get an infection or something. And,
20 you know, I'dlike to get himsome medicalhelp, but --21okay, are you -- is --did Sita bring these children
22 out?
23 KATHY: Yes.
24 JIM: Okay. Well,that seemsto beworking25 well.
KATHY: Yes. Just remembershe's nota kid,
f
4JIM: Sita. NO,
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1 Ieventhough she looks like one.
2JIM: Who?
3KATHY: Sita.
I, Iunderstand. The agents
5 have already seen her, you know --
6 p KATHY: Yeah.
JIM: -- a bunch of times and --
KATHY: Yeah.
JIM: -- she's doinga great job and you guys
super. This was great. So just keep it up and
keep, keeppositive. Everything'sgoing to work out.
BIG
KATHY: Okay.
JIM: And you have my word on it now. Just
work with us, okay?
KATHY: Okay.
* JIM: All right. Who else is around there?
Is David there?
KATHY: Yes,he's righthere. He'slayingdown.
JIM: _Okay.
KATHY: You want to talk to him?
JIM: Well, if, if he wants abreak, I'll
just hang on with you for a minute if --
KATHY: Okay.Yeah, he wants to-get someI881: .
JIM: Okay. Isthere anything you need to
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25
they
We're
going
about
going
you.
you know,
13
ask me?
KATHY: No. I just, I just want to make sure
get to their dad, basically, you know.
JIM: What'shis name, can you tell me?
KATHY: William Mabb. "
JIM: Okay.
KATHY: And, you know, he, he has already,
wanted them in the past, so --
JIM: Yeah.
KATHY: -- he -- oh, what's --
JIM: Kathy?
KATHY: Yeah.
JIM: You need to turn on Radio 1080, KRLB.
going to play the message.
KATHY: Okay.
JIM: And I don'twant you to miss it.
KATHY: Okay. It's onright over here. He's
to play the message. Okay.
JIM: What, what, whatcan I tell the kids
when you'regoing to see them again? They're
to -- starting to be, you know, wanting to see
KATHY: Tell me them soon. Tell them soon,
I'll see them soon. ~
JIM: Okay. All right. Cause, you know,
they're goingto be asking for you and stuff, you know.
14
KATHY: Yeah, especially Brian when he comes
out.
JIM: Okay. So, you know, I don't--
KATHY: He'sprobably going to cry.
JIM: Yeah. Well --
KATHY: But tell him I'll see him soon.
JIM: Okay.
KATHY: Mommywill come and get him soon.
JIM: Okay. Okay.
KATHY: I know their dad'1l take care of
them.
JIM: Yeah. Well, he'spretty far away,
though, isn't he?
KATHY: Well, you know, legal battles, you
know, could ensue, but he, he would end up getting them
anyway. So I'd rather they just go to him.
JIM: Well, okay. We'reconcerned, you know,
for their safety and, you know, I'm sureit'll be a
little traumatic for them to go with their dad if
they've beenwith you. How long have they beenwith
you? Their whole life, I guess?
KATHY: Yeah.
JIM: Yeah. Has he ever had them?
KATHY: Well, for a vacation, you know.
JIM: Yeah. But that's kind of short, isn't
it?
[
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there?
»JIM: Yeah,
children, up there?
KATHY: Yes,
JIM: Okay.
sure try toreach him.
capable of taking care
JIM: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED
done, I'vegot acall.
KATHY: Call
UNIDENTIFIED
JIM: Okay.
KATHY: Yeah
KATHY: Yeah,
KATHY: Okay.
15
KATHY: Well, yeah.
JIM: Does he --has he got agood job up
KATHY: He's in the service.
okay. The Air Force probably.
JIM: That's what's inSouth Dakota.
KATHY: Right. Rapid City.
JIM: Rapid City. Alittle cold up there.
KATHY: Yeah
JIM: Does he have any otherfamily,
he does.
All right. Well, we'll, we'll
he's, he's,he's verywell
of them.
>MALE SPEAKER:As soonas you're
who?I'm talking toJim.
MALE SPEAKER: Are you?
KATHY: Steve needs to talk to you.
JIM: Thanks for your help.
.
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KATHY: Okay. You take care of them and get
them to Bill and, and he'lltake care of them.
JIM: Okay. .
KATHY: I know he will.
"JIM: You hang in there now.
KATHY: Oh, yeah.
JIM: We'reall going to get out of this
and --i
KATHY: Okay.
JIM: -- come through this okay. You got it?
KATHY: Okay. You just, you just keep doing
your good job.
JIM: All right. Hang in there:
KATHY: Thank you.
JIM: Okay, Kathy.
KATHY: Take care.
JIM: All right .
STEVE: Hello, Jim.
JIM: Hey, Steve, how you doing?
STEVE: Not good because I was downstairs --
Hello?
JIM: Hello. Hey.
STEVE: He just -- his knee hit the, the --
look out, look out there. Okay. Yeah, we'renot too
happy because Wayne called me into --pardon? To
someone else.! David is really getting upset because
~
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we weredownstairs, thetelephone rang,his parents are
on the phone. They were saying a few words to him and
he was just telling them to be cool, that everything
was being worked out, and the phone went dead.
JIM: Oh.
STEVE: They couldn't call in. Nobody can
and you can't callout. David said he'sgoing to stop
the children even.
JIM: Well, Idon't want him to do that.
STEVE: Imean, there, there's no sense in
doing that with the phone. Nothing'sbeing said. He's
talking to them about relaxing and --
JIM: Sure.
STEVE: -- trying to keep these people, you
know, you know, they'reall upset and they don't know
what's going on.
JIM: Sure, Iunderstand.
STEVE: They want to hear the voices and
we're trying to just say just look, like, you know,
it's beingworked out, but, you know, they like to hear
it from us, of course.
JIM: Yeah. Iunderstand.
STEVE: Can, can you have them open up a line
again? I mean, in fact, you know, it's-- is ita big
deal or what?
JIM: Well --
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STEVE: David'ssaying tell them to open up a
line.
JIM: Okay. I'll, I'llhave to pass it up to
the commanders, okay? I'vegot to be straight up with
you. It7s going to be very difficult.
- STEVE: Okay. Well, I'm, I'mgoing to put
the phone down and you can call me back. Or, if I
don't hearfrom you in a while, I'll callyou back.
JIM: Okay,
STEVE: Go to them, talk to them, because, I
mean, everything yesterday, I mean, we appreciated that
you allowed us to talk with some of these stations
about what we believe in.
JIM: Right.
STEVE: Here's David.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: Yeah,Jim --
JIM: David, how you doing?
DAVID: Now, listen to me.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: You guys are telling the public of
this country that you don't wantany blood. All right,
now, Imade a deal with you. You tell these boys they
better get our lines back operatable, okay?
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Or they're goingto go to bed every
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2 killed these littlechildren.
3 JIM: Okay, David.
DAVID: Noplaying around any more,okay?
JIM: I know. Listen, justhang --
A DAVID: No, you listen. I'vebeen fair with
you, you'vebeen fair with me thus far.
JIM: Okay. '
DAVID: But you teil those guys that are
pranking aroundwith the innocent thatthere's onlyonething that makes memad, andthat's whenthe innocentare hurt.
JIM: I understand.
DAVID: Now, I made a deal with you with the
children.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: You tellthese boneheads, these
bureaucrats, whateverthey are,to openour linesup.
JIM: Okay. I'm goingto see what I can do.
I knowit's painfulbeing cutoff from the peopleyoulove. I
DAVID: No, the thing of it is is that we
have theright --the radio stationsare sayingtheyhaven't heard from me since two lastnight, and you
know thereason why.People arewanting tocall.Theywant to know some things. People want to --
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JIM: David --
DAVID: You have a communication. We've got,
we've gotthree lines here. You'regoing to be getting
us another phone. As a matter of fact, we're supposed
to havewhat, five lines altogether, Steve?
_STEVE: We actually have three.
DAVID: Okay, three lines.
STEVE: We had four --
DAVID: So wecan stay -- and they cut our
cellular out, too.
JIM: Oh, yeah.
DAVID: So, you know, tell them guys if
that's whatthey want is a big fight --
JIM: N0.
DAVID: -- then come on.
JIM: David, no, we don't wantto fight.
DAVID: Okay, that's whatyou're telling me.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Prove it to me.
JIM: Well, what we'vegot to do is relax and
I'll seewhat Ican do. But I've gotto be straight
with you.
DAVID: I'mbeing straight with you now.
JIM: You know, that'sgoing to be very
difficult to do. And --
DAVID: Well, thenthis is going to be very
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one of these things?
JIM: How many guys? Well, I'll have to
check on that, Idon'tknow. A couple of guys, you
know. But there's no,there's nogun on it. There's
no gunon it. It's strictlybullet-proof.
STEVETO UNIDENTIFIED PARTY: And he said no
gun on it, it's strictly bullet-proof. I'm sureof
that.
JIM: Yeah, it is. That's thereason for it.
It's notcoming in there. We're not coming in,I give
you my word. It's just a change in the perimeter. You
know, if we wanted to shoot at you, we could have been
shooting at you.
STEVE: Sure,you could.
JIM: And we haven'tdone that, you know,
since you and me worked out that cease fire Sunday
morning, right?
STEVE: Seems like it has been going very
well. That's why -
JIM: Right.
STEVE: --I'm quite surprised about these
new tactics.
JIM: Well, you know, we haven't--
STEVE: More and more inches is right.
JIM: But, look, we haven't shotat you. We
want to resolve this thing. You do, too. You're good
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men andyou wantto resolve it. We're goodmen andwe
wantto resolve it.
STEVE: Pardon? Unidentified voice in
background not discernible.! Whatever happened with
getting the kids out? '
JIM: Well, wewant to get the kids out. We
wantto continue to get everybody out, so wecan --
STEVE: Herewe're talking -- We were talking
about you and I were working about getting the kids
out --
JIM: Right.
STEVE: -- andwe had this problem with the
telephone. That's what you andI were communicating
about.
JIM: Right.
STEVE: Now you're telling me about bringing
in these vehicles.
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: So, I mean, what on earth?
JIM: Well, one thing we're doingis we're
changing the --
STEVE= I suppose maybe you could bring them
in andwe'll just keep the kids and wait and seewhat
happens. »
JIM: Well, one, one reason for it is we're
changing the inner perimeter to the, to the FBI and
_6
ithey'regoing to bethe ones holding the inner
perimeter. And the ATF agents are pulling back
farther.
STEVETO UNIDENTIFIED PARTY: He says the ATF
agents are pulling back and the FBI are going to be
holding the perimeter.
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE IN BACKGROUND:
indiscernible! going to come and kill me.!
CHILD'S VOICE:Are you going to come and
kill me? I
JIM: Hello? No, Honey, nobodys going to
come and killyou.
CHILD'S VOICE:Are they going to come and
kill me?
JIM: No. No. Nobody's coming. Steve?
MR. KORESH: Like Itold you --
JIM= Hey, David.
MR. KORESH: Hey, Jim.
JIM: What?
MR. KORESH: This is in your hands now,
buddy. U
JIM: Hey, it's just --
M. KORESH: You're theone, you'rethe one
talking to me. Now, let me tell you, Imade an
agreement with you and Itold you straight across the
table --
7
JIM: Right.
MR. KORESH: --you keep theseguys aways
Now, if they go against your will, you can't do
nothing, can you?
JIM: No, Ican do something. I'm goingto
work with you.
M. KORESH: But you told me that you wasin
charge of this. -
JIM: Oh, I'm not the commander. No, I'm not
in charge.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
JIM: I'm just the guy that'stalking to you.
MR. KORESH: Right.
JIM: I've gotall kinds of bosses and
commanders andgenerals around here. I mean, I've got
guys with scrambled eggsand gold leaves and badges
like you wouldn't believe, and they'reall
heavyweights, from Washington to the governor, you
know. And, and everybody -- Imean, think about me. I
getpressure. I've gotthe news, I've gotthe
governor, I'vegot the vice president, I've goti
everybody in the world --
MR.KORESH: You're my,you're myvoice then.
JIM:Well, but, you know, Dave, let me, let
me ask you to do something for me. Listen to me for a
minute.
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MR. KORESH: I'm listening.
JIM: I've got a lot on my shoulders, too.
MR. KORESH: Uh-huh.
JIM: And I've hada lot of pressure.
M. KORESH: Uhhuh.
JIM: And everybody's promising me that
nothing's going to happen to you, okay? Everybodys
promising me that. I'm telling you nothing's going to
happen to you. I'mtelling you that. Nothing at all.
You've gotto work with me. You are going to see these
things. I'm not tricking you. They didn't showup
without me telling you. I went the ex-- Igot ina
battle with the commanders about the guns on there. I
said don'tsend anything out there with guns. They
took their guns off.
Imean, it's strictly bullet-proof shield,
that's it. And I know you don't like it. I sympathize
with it.
MR. KORESH: Idon'tmind it. I'm just
essentially saying that, you know, they're just,
they're just, like I say, taking theirinches. They're
just, you know -- We know who's goingto win this deal.
JIM: You know -- But, listen, you told Gary
all day that you trusted me.
MR. KORESH: Oh, I do.
JIM: Was that true?
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M. KORESH: But now you're starting to, now
you're starting to move off.
JIM: N0. No.
MR. KORESH: Yes, you are, Jim.
JIM: No. Listen, I trust you and I'm
telling you --
MR. KORESH: Yeah, I haven't brokenmy part
of the deal. u
JIM: Well, I'm notbreaking either. We're
not coming in. Our part of the deal was we'renot
making any aggressive action.
MR. KORESH: Stay on the outside of the
property.
JIM: Well, I can'tguarantee it. I'm going
to try to see what I can do. I don't know where
exactly they'll be positioned. What I -- Here's what I
want you to do for me, okay? Let's just go one step at
a time. Let the --You're going to see them. Pass the
word to all your people. When they stop, I want you to
call me.
M. KORESH: Or you call them and tellthem
where to stop.
JIM: No, I'm notgoing to call them. I want
you to call me and tellme where they are, okay?
MR. KORESH: All right, we'll do that.
JIM: All right, you call me and tell, tell
¢
10
1 me where they are. And then let's see if there's any
2problem with that. And you look atthem good and you
3 haveyour men look at them good. There's no guns on
4them. There's noguns.
5S A M. KORESH: It's, it's dark outside now.
6 JIM: Well, you've got night scopes.
7 MR. KORESH: That'sright, but, likeI say,
8 over so many hundred yards, then it's-- then you don't
9know what you're dealing with. They've gota.50-
10 caliber aircraft barrel on it or something like that
11 behind anevasive plate. I mean, you know, you can't
12 really tellin certain distances like that.
13 JIM: David, listen. I've giving you 100
1 14 percent absolute guarantee, my word, repeat, okay, no
15 one'sgoing to take any action. I'm giving you my
16 absolute solemn promise, that's it. I'm telling you it
17 won't happen.I'm tellingyou these vehicles are going
18 to move up, so that's what's going to happen.
19 MR. KORESH= So when are they going to be
20 here?
21 JIM: when they going to be there?
22 MR. KORESH: Yeah.
23 JIM: Soon, you know. Next few --
24 MR. KORESH: Okay, once they get situated,
25 we'llgive you a call and tellyou what's happening.
And thenlet's startthis evacuating children again.
1
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11
JIM: All right. And we --Listen, I just
want -- That's greatman, I'mtelling you. Just hang
with us. I've gotto deal with all these generals
and --
MR. KORESH: All right.
JIM: --I'm trying to get them, you know, to
deal with me. And we took the barrels off to
demonstrate that we're notthreatening you, but, you
know, we don't wantany other agents hurt.
MR. KORESH: All right. Well, we'll talk to
you later then, all right?
JIM: All right. Now, you call me when they
get stopped, okay?
M. KORESH: All right.
JIM: All right, buddy.
MR. KORESH: Bye.
JIM: See you.
iitii
STEVE: Hello?
JIM: Hey, Steve?
STEVE: Yes.
JIM: Hey, this is Jim. Is David there?
STEVE: Yes, he is.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: Just a minute.
JIM: Okay.
I
12
MR. KORESH: Hello, Jim?
JIM: Hey, David. I've got this child here,
Jenessa.
MR. KORESH: Uh-huh.
JIM: And, and she wants to talk to her mom,
Ithink.
MR. KORESH: Okay, wait one second now.
JIM: Oh, here she is.
MR. KORESH; Okay, wait a minute.
JIM: All right.
MR. KORESH: Okay, what I need, what I need
to know, okay, your guys are moving in, all right?
JIM: Are they there?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, they're moving in all
around us.
JIM: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: So they're going to bust us in a
heart --
JIM: No. No, we'renot going to bust you
tonight. No, you have my word they're not.I'm
telling you they're not. This, this is straight up.
Hey, would you talk to Jenessa and let her mom talk,
and then you and Ican talk? 'Cause she's beenhere a
while and I think she's getting kind of tired.
MR. KORESH: Okay, let me talk to her.
JIM: Okay. This isDavid.
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JENESSA: Hi, David.
MR. KORESH: Hey, how you doing?
JENESSA: Fine.
MR. KORESH: Doing fine?
JENESSA: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: Okay, that'sgood. All right,
where, where'syour sister? You with all your sistersnow?
- JENESSA= I haven'tseen Tamir phonetic sp.!
yet, no.
MR. KORESH: Oh, Tamir ain't goneyet?
JENESSA: Yes, she's, she'shere. I'll be
seeing her soon.
MR. KORESH: Oh, okay. Okay, hold on a
second. Jenessa, your mother, she's kindof, you know,
upset right now.
JENESSA: Okay.
MR. KORESH: She says she'll talk to you all
later, okay? Just have faith inGod, all right?
JENESSA: Okay.
MR. KORESH: Okay, so, you know, are you
strong? '
JENESSA: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: That's good.All right, let me
talk to Jim then. Y
JENESSA: Okay.
v
1
1
2 MR.
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14
JIM: Thank you. Can I let her go now?
KORESH: Yeah, she's --Jay's upset. She
says she'lltalk to them later.
JIM: Oh, okay. All right.
- MR. KORESH: Okay, now --
JIM: Now, David, I'mgetting some kind of
disturbing reports that, you know, youmight be just
really down. You know,I mean, people are telling me
that, that used to know youthat, you know, you're
just - you might sink real low in a situation like
this. I'mkindof worried about it.
MR. KORESH:What do you mean, sinklow?
JIM: Well, I mean, what we want to do is we
want to get these kids out. Then we want to c
get the women out, then we want
hange and
to get the men out.
And, you know, I want youto makethat agreementwith me.
MR. KORESH:Well, likeI told you, I said
we're goingto getthe kids out. Then we'lldo so
renegotiating, okay?Beca
U12
use, you know, likeI say,
you all are sayingthat the main guyhere that'scaused
all this trouble is me, right?
JIM: Oh, no, we'renot saying that.
MR. KORESH: Well, come on, Jim..
JIM: No, hey, you're just a
MR. KORESH: We'v
guy in charge.
ebeen watching all the TV
V .
iI
2 pretty bad. Half statement
4
5MR. KORESH:
6
15
1' andeverything and, I mean the v ', y e got me painted
s, quarter statements, you
3 know --
JIM: Well, they do that. I mean, they --
I know, but that, that creates a
tenor in the public which -- But anyway --
JIM: Well, listen. YQu, you share with me --
Now, I'vetold you howI felt. You share with me your
thoughts and concerns about what's goingon. I mean,
I, I guess I'm-- what I'm askingfor --
MR. KORESH: Is what I want to do --
JIM: I want you, I want you to open up to
me, but Idon'twantyou to, you know, I wantyou to be
straight out. I, I can't,Ican'tdecipher the
.scripture. I'm just not a theologian and I just want
you to tell me straight out what are your concerns,
what do you, what do you wantto do? What can I do to
help you?
M. KORESH: Well, where we're atright now
is I wantallthese people to have a chance to think,
every last one of them, everyman, everywoman, you
know. And I wanttime, I wanttime for people to
think.
JIM: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:I want time for people to live.
I don'twantany more people hurt. And I want to have
A16
time just to sit here, lay here --
JIM= All right.
MR. KORESH: -- and let whatever happens to
me happen. But I want these people to have time to
where, where I'm gone-- You know, that may be asking
too much for you. I know you all want to get inhere
and really bust us up quick, but these people here,
they've gotto maketheir owndecisions. Andif I have
influenced them, you know, then, like I say, if you
just giye me enough time because -- to let these wounds
take their effect and just let me die --
JIM: But, you know --
MR. KORESH: Jim, look --
JIM= David, listen.
MR. KORESH: No, Jim, listen.
JIM: This has been painful for us. Come on.
MR. KORESH: Jim, listen, listen, Jim,
there's nothing that hurtsme more than being called a
cult leader, all right?I spoke the truth but you
don't know that.
JIM: Yeah, but we didn't call you that.
MR. KORESH: I know. Jim, listen --
JIM: You -- Hey, those news media, you guys,
come on.
MR. KORESH: Look, Jim, let me explain
something. People do have a lot of influence and I»
I
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17
understand that.
JIM: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: Jeremiah says wound heal that
trusses from the arm of flesh. So all I'm askingis
thatyou--
JIM: But, David -- _
MR. KORESH: -- keep the guys off.
JIM: Oh, yeah, but let me, let me ask you
something. The position you'retaking, okay, without
letting us give you any medical care --
MR. KORESH: Idon'twant the medical care,
all right?
JIM: Iunderstand, but just listen --
MR. KORESH: I've beendoing my work ever
since 1985, all right?
JIM:Um-hum. But just listen for just a
minute.
MR. KORESH: If I'mwrong, people like me
don't deserveto live, okay?
JIM:Listen, listen --
MR. KORESH: Do you understand me, Jim?
JIM: David, I do, but I, I've beena good
listener and I'm justasking you to listen to me for
just a minute. The way, youknow, you'vegot this
wound in there and you're suffering,it's almostlike
you're hurting yourself. And --
18
MR. KORESH: I asked for it, didn't I?
JIM: Yeah, but, you know, I'ma Christian
man and I know about Jesus and he didn't killhimself.
Jesus didn't hurt himself.
_~MR. KORESH:No, hedied onthe cross.
JIM: Right. And he died trying to spread
the word.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, and --
JIM: And --
M. KORESH: Let me tell you something.
JIM: -- if you're dying, you can't advance
the word.
MR. KORESH: I can'tadvance the word anyway.
See, with the news media, with the coverage, you
understand, slander is something that's been used --
Look, the best thing to do right now is to give these
people a chance.
JIM: I want them all to have a chance.
MR. KORESH: Yeah. And those who've done
injustice, I mean, you know, they'vegot to, they've
got to give theirselves over to the judicial system;
We knowthat. But, remember, I'mthe bad guy, okay, as
far as the world thinks. So just give these people
time. You know, send some of these guys home. You
know, keep, keep aperimeter up. You know, always, you
know, make sure nobody leaves, you know.
19
JIM: All right, David,let me--
V MR. KORESH: Giveustime to get hungry, give
ustime to get thirsty. You know whatI'm saying?
JIM: David, will you be straight with me?
MR. KORESH: I'm straight.
JIM: Are you going to commit suicide?
MR. KORESH:I'm notgoing to commit suicide.
JIM: Your word? Your word?
MR. KORESH:My word is the word.
i JIM: You're goingto comeout of there?
MR. KORESH:Well, I want to lay here and let
this take care of me.
JIM: Well, that's committingsuicide.
MR. KORESH: No, it'snot.
JIM: Sure, it is. It's killingyourself.
MR. KORESH: Look --
JIM: Jesus didn't kill himself.
MR. KORESH:Look, let's,let's, let'sget
back on this one thing. God sits on the throne in
heaven, right?
JIM: Man, I'm reallyworried about you.
MR. KORESH:Listen, Jim, does he or does henot?
JIM: Would you -- Let me ask you this.
MR. KORESH:Question: Does he or does henot?
,
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* JIM: He loves you, sure, he does.
MR. KORBSH: No, does he sit on a throne or
not? -
JIM: Sure, he does.
MR. KORESH: Allright. Does he have a book
with seven seals? '
JIM: Yes, he does.
MR. KORESH: Is Psalm 45 the first seal?
JIM: Well,I'm not sure. But if you say so,
I'lltake your word.
MR. KORESH: You can't do that. That makes
you like a cult follower.
JIM: David, you're beingreal straight with I
me and I've justgot to ask you this question, okay?
Are you going to let any of your other people kill
themselves or die in there? I'vegot to know, buddy.
MR. KORESH: I'm notgoing to do that.
JIM: I've got to know.
MR. KORESH: We are giving a message. We
want to give a message and a witness. I want these
people to have a chance to sit this out, think about
it, you know.
JIM: Well,what's going to happen if you
die? You tellme, if you die from thatwound, an
infection, I want you to tellme what's goingto
happen.
l
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MR. KORESH: Well, I'mnot going to be around
any more, am I, to influence anybody, right?
JIM: Well, what's goingto happen to your
people? Are they going to walk out?
MR. KORESH: We have to see, Jim. Like I
said, I'mnot acult leader. I'ma Bible teacher,
okay? Nobody ever is committed to do what I ask or do
what I say, okay? People do what they want to do.
JIM: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: Okay? Now, if you let the
people think, you know, they're allscared around here
now --
JIM: Just --
MR. KORESH:You've shownthem a big arm, you
know.
JIM: You know what I'm tryingto do? I'm
trying to let you --I'masking you to let me look
inside your people andyou to see what'sgoing to go
on, becauseunless youdo, then, you know,it's goingto be hard to, to help. V '
MR. KORESH:Well, I'mtelling you what
you'll do.Just give us sometime, give us time, you
know. That'sallI'masking. Give us time. You know,
you'vealldone -- you'veall been enragedalot of
times, you know. Don'tburn our building down.
JIM: No, we won'tdo that.
-
0 0
22
MR. KORESH: -Don't,don't shootus all up.
M Givethese people a chance before God to weigh out
whether what they've learnedin the scripture isthe
truth or, you know, whether maybe they have second
thoughts: But they've gotto, they'vegot to have that
time.
JIM: David, if you die, you'releaving your
people helpless.
MR. KORESH; Look, they'reGod's people.
JIM: But if --
MR. KORESH: I'mjust an instrument, okay?
JIM: Yeah.
M. KORESH: I'm justanother human being, an
instrument, okay? You don'tunderstand. This is not
no glory thing. This is life.
JIM: But if you live, you can spread the
word.
MR. KORESH:I cannot. They'll lockme upin
the jail for 100 years. You know, they blame mefor
everything, you know.
JIM: But didn't, didn'tyou get acquitted on
the trial you had in 1980?
MR. KORESH: Look, we were innocent. In the
court session, you're notsupposed to have a
prosecuting attorney and anotherfriend on the jury.
And the two black guys talked to me later and said that
r
§
w
all the way through.
happened.
court, come on.
chance to think, okay?
JIM: Okay. I'll tell
do. I'm going to do -- I'm, I'm
think, but I'd like you to start
your people that, you know, just
there. '
JIM: Come on, buddy.
JIM: Trust me now.
23
92 between that black guy and Chebaz phonetic sp.!, they
hung that. The other jurists knew that I was innocent
JIM: But they acquitted you, didn't they?
MR. KORBSH: Yeah. But nothing like this
JIM: Yeah. But you'llstill get a day in
MR. KORESH; Look, I know, and I've also
known about money. Come on. Jim, let's, let's just
talk like this. Let's just say give these people a
you what I'm goingto
going to let them to
discussing with all
like you told me,
they're comingout of there. And I want them to get
their minds right, thatthey're coming out of there.
And I want you to set a plan for them to come out of
MR. KORESH: Look, Jim -v
M. KORESH: -like you said --
MR. KORESH= -a plan. Just let me lay here
and let nature take its course with me, all right?
92 ,
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JIM: Yeah, but you know, you know something?
M. KORESH: That may be too much time for
you.
JIM: NO.
A MR. KORESH: But if you move in too quick,
then these people are going to retaliate.
JIM: Listen, I want your folks to have a
chance in life. And, you know, you know how we were
yesterday, where we couldn'tget anywhere, we didn't
seem to get anywhere until you and I started to make
some agreements about the children coming out.
MR. KORESH: That's right. And like with
Gary last night, I kept telling him over and over what
our plan was, and he didn'tseem to understand. So
then, all of a sudden, whathappens is that all this
time, you know, we'vebeen sitting and talking and,
and, you know, back and forth, and, you know, that's
why I'm-- You know, we hear on the, we hear on the TV
that all the children are out.
JIM: Oh, well, those TV --
MR. KORESH: There is such a, there is such a
screw-up in communication. That'swhy I let you talk
to Daylind phonetic! - u
JIM: Oh, I know.
MR. KORESH: You know?
JIM: But, you know, what I'm,what I'm
92
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2
-
92
25
,trying to say is once we had an agreement about what
was going to happen, you made it happen. You know,
you've gota strong will, and what I'msaying --
M. KORESH: And I explained toyou why.
Because the children don't have decisions in them.
JIM: Iknow it, but, but what I'm saying is;
Iif you could make anagreement with your people that
they're walking out of there and you could --
MR. KORESH; I am not going to tell them what
to do. I never have and never will. Ishow them out
of a book what God teaches. Then it's for them to
decide.
JIM: David, these, these kids need their
pparents and we want everybody to be safe. How about
the women? Can -- Will you let them come out of there?
MR. KORESH: Hey, haven't, haven't Sita and
them already come out?
JIM: Oh, yeah, but Imean, Imean come out
and actually stay out.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, but the thing of it is is
that if they wanted to, they, they could.
JIM: Well, I,
can't because you don'twant them to.
I think they feel like they
M.KORESH: No, no, no, no. Let's stopthat
now.
JIM: Okay. Imean, I thinkyour will is so
l
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2
3
4
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6
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26
strong that - and they love you so much that they,
they wouldn'tgo unless you sent them. You know what I
mean?
M. KORESH: Jim --
JIM: David, give me asign and send, send a
woman with some children.
MR. KORESH: Jim --
JIM: Give me asign.
MR. KORESH; --I'mnot going to play that
game.
psychologist. You have to have
all I'm trying to do
JIM: Come on, give me a sign. Send awoman
with some children.
MR. KORESH:Jim, your psychology's really
rusty.
JIM: Hey, I'm nopsychologist, I'm a
policeman.
MR. KORESH: I know. You're, you'rea
the best psychology to
be a policeman.
JIM: I'mapoliceman, that's allI am. And
is save some peoplefrom gettinghurt.
want
DO
MR. KORESH: Okay, exactly. That's whatI
to do. Now, are you going to give us some time or
t?
JIM: Oh, yeah, I'mgoing to give you --
i
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27
Hey --
MR. KORESH: Or are these guys going to come
in here and --
JIM: No, you've got the time, buddy. You've
got it. AYou've gotthe time. Now, you'regoing toseey those vehicles, like I told you, but you've got--
nothing else is happening. Listen, are the, are the
ymothers worried about the kids? Are they upset or
anything? _
M. KORESH: Aren't the, aren't the, aren't
the mothers talking to the children?
JIM: Yeah. Oh --
MR. KORESH: Jay is. You know, Jay may come
out later, you know.
JIM: Is Jay a mother?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, she's, she's the mother of
Jenessa.
JIM: Okay.
MR. KORESH: She says she doesn't want to
talk to them right now.
JIM: Okay. Would you --
MR. KORESH= And she might come out, you
know.
JIM: Um-hum. Are we going to get any other
kids out tonight?
MR. KORESH: Well, I'mthinking about it. I
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mean, you know, what, what are we doing now? Where are
we at?
JIM: You're great, man. Hang in there,
Buddy. Do it, come on.
y A'MR. KORESH: Where,where's thevan at now?
JIM: Oh, I can get thevan there if you want
to do it. Shoot.
MR. KORESH: I'll send a couple more out. Go
get thevan.
JIM: All right. I'll get the van lined up.
M. KORESH: Okay. Well, give me a call when
it gets here.
JIM: All right. You line the kids up and
I'll callyou back. Let's see,let me look at my watch
here. I'll call you at quarter to eight, twenty
minutes.
MR. KORESH: All right.
JIM: Is that enough time to hug them and
kiss them,.get their coats, and at quarter to eight
have them ready to walk out?
MR. xonssm Okay.
JIM: Buddy, I'll call--Man, you're great.
MR. KORESH: Bye, Jim.
JIM: Thanks. Look, don'tgive up on me.
Hang in there.
MR. KORESH: I'm notgiving up on you.
I1
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JIM: All right. Hang inthere.
MR. KORESH: I'm justputting my children in
your hands.
JIM: Hey, we're takingcare of them, too.
M. KORESH: Okay.
JIM: And, listen, if you see --
MR. KORESH: Hey, you know our phone, we
can't even call you now?
JIM: You can't?
MR. KORESH: NO.
JIM: I've got to give you a number?
MR. KORESH: No. What I'm sayingis that we
can't callanybody now. We askedyou to open up some
lines for us. Now we can'tcall anybody. Every time
we dial three digits, it goes da, da, da.
JIM:Yeah. Hey, listen, I've got--
MR. KORESH: Here's Steve. Here.
JIM: I'vegot to line thesecars up and --
STEVE: Jim.
JIM: Hey, Steve?
STEVE: I wanted to call you, you know, like,
say, five, ten minutes ago, and every time I get to the
third digit now it, it's over,it's done.
JIM: Oh, all right, I'll fix it.I'll, I'll
get that corrected rightaway.
STEVE: All right. Yeah, because hewas
f
92
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4
wanting to talk, I did, and we were trying to get
something worked out here.
JIM: Oh, hey, my apologies.
STEVE : Okay .
JIM: I, I, I just - We had a good
conversation. We're making a lot of progress. And
I've gotto take a break to set up a car.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: And, and hang in there with me now.
STEVE: I'm--That'sthat I'vebeen trying
to do.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE:I want to.
JIM: Just be patient. I'm givingyou my
word everything's okay.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Trust me now. Just hang in there.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Keep everybody calm. We're goingto
get everybody through this.
STEVE: I'm trying to do that.
JIM: You'rea good man. Steve, hang in
there.
STEVE: Okay. H
-JIM: I'll call you back at about quarter to
eight.
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STEVE: Okay. Thanks, Jim.
JIM: And then I'mgoing to get the phOme
fixed.
STEVE: All right.
AIJIM: All right, see you.
STEVE: Bye.
iiii
JIM: And he told me he couldn't dial this
number. Did you cheek on that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I haven't checked
on it.
tttti
STEVE: Hello?
JIM: Steve?
STEVE: Yes. Jim.
JIM: Hey, how you doing?
STEVE: Well, Iwas kind of waiting for your
call there.
JIM: Yeah. I'm sorry,Igot tied up setting
up that car.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM:' I'vegot a car out there that's ready.
STEVE: Oh, it's already out there and ready?
JIM: Well, no, it's, it's not atthe water
tower, but it's, it's just about, you know, about an
eighth of amile.
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STEVE: About an eighth of a mile?
JIM: Um-hum. Have you got the kids ready?
STEVE: We're a little -- Jim, man, I mean,
you know, we thought we were getting it worked out
again, but tell me if it's true or false, we just heard
on the radio that they're planning on hitting us at, at
eight o'clock, which is in three minutes.
JIM: Oh, not true. You stay with me.
We'll, we'lltalk. Mothing'll happen. I'mserious.
STEVE: I mean, I believed you from --
JIM: Absolutely.
STEVE: -- the beginning.
JIM: Oh, that's baloney. I'm telling you, I
don't knowwhere those people -- I think they just sit
there and make up stuff. They make up stuff.
STEVE: I know it. Well, even about David.
There was this -- Remember back in '87this crazy
what's hisname dug up a body. Roden?
JIM: Roden, yeah.
STEVE: They said we did that.
JIM: Oh.
STEVE: I mean, it'sincredible. I mean, I
mean, the news is just ripping us apart with things
that aren't even remotely close.
JIM: Well, I'll tell you what. When we --
After we resolve this thing, you'regoing to have a
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chance to clear all that up. And I --
STEVE: Well, I hope so.
JIM: I hope you do because it really makes
me angry the way they try to slander you and
everything. And it'swrong, but, you know --
STEVE: Well, you know, a lot of these people
are -- they've having,you know, they're,they're
trying to think and decide what they want to do. You
know, there'sa lot of them herethat are that way
and --
JIM:Yeah.
STEVE: And I heardwhat he had to say and
he's saidit before. And, you know, a lot of them
are-- they're so puzzled and confused and --
JIM:Yeah. Well, I understand that.I
really - And I sympathize.
STEVE: And they're sayingthat he'sup and
walking around. That'sbalone . Evy ery time you --
He'snever moved.
JIM:No, I know he'snever moved.
STEVE: You can even tell by his voice. I
ean, I don't get-- I don't evenknowwherethey got
hat from.
JIM:Steve, let me ask you something
traight --
STEVE: Yeah.
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JIM: -- straight up, okay?
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: I'm worried about David. I'm concerned
about him. I, I feel like hiswound is going to get
infected. I'vetalked to him directly about this.
srsvn: Right.
JIM: I feel like hemight die. If that
happens, what, what are you going to do?
STEVE: Well, what I'mgoing to do --
JIM: Are you going to, are you going to let
me --
STEVE: Well, I'm goingto keep on
communicating with you. That'swhy I wanted to, you
know, right from the beginning, right with the
children, right on through to see what these people
want to -- I want to try to help everyone make up their
mind.
JIM: Yeah, but I want you to walk out of
therewith everybody.
STEVE: Well, I'd surelike to.
JIM: I mean, that'swhat we want to do. And
I, I want to save David and you want to save David.
STEVE: But hereally -- This is true.
JIM: I mean, let's,let's getdown to the --
We've gotto get down to the brass tacks. You know,
whenI was in Tennessee, weused to say we'vegot to
35
1 see how the cow eats the cabbage here, you know.
2 STEVE:Right .
3 JIM: I, I don't want to dance around with
4you. I mean, I am not -- I'm justa policeman and I|v-1
5* don'twant to see nobody hurt.
6 STEVE:Yeah.
7JIM: And I told -- I asked David straight
8 out what are you going to do, Dave? I mean, Jesus
9 didn't commit suicide.
10 STEVE: Well, he doesn't want to do that.
11 JIM: Yeah, but I'm afraidhe's letting that
1 12 wound draw him weaker and weaker. He's goingto get anI
13 infection. He's goingto get where we can't bringhimI .
E 14 back. He'sgoing to get wherewe can't--1
15 STEVE: I mean, after all the slander in the
E16 world andeverything he'sgone through,I mean--
17 JIM: The guy'sgone through so --
18 STEVE: All he'swanted to do is speak andII
I 19 open up and love -- to show people what, what God's
20 going to do, bizarre as it seems intown.I
I 21 JIM: He'sgot a chance to make a difference.lI
22 He'sgot a chance to make adifference now and, and you
123 .have achance.
' 24 STEVE:Let me ask him, do you want to talk
25to Jim? Pardon? Unidentified male voice in
background not discernible.! He said all this
,
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excitement's gettingto him. He looks pretty weak.
JIM: Hey, I wish we could, I wish we could
fool all those news reporters and just -- with their
,,reports on the attacks and you all could just all get. _~
in a group and walk out. And, you know, I really wish
we could just get this thing resolved peacefully.
STEVE: Well,that's what he -- You know,
~that's whatthey want to do, but they're,they're --
,.Actual1y, the truth is they're terrified.
JIM: They're terrified?
STEVE: Well,yeah.
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: I mean, you know, a person doesn't
want to say that, but, you know, they are.
JIM: Yeah. I understand.
STEVE: They'reafraid to move. They'veseen
all the movement outside, you know, the vehicles. Not
only the three, we heard on the radio that another four
or five are coming from wherever --
JIM: Well,that -- You know, all that
perimeter stuff, Steve, it really -- I, I appreciate.
your concern, but I'mtelling you it's nothing. This
thing is inside. I mean, it'sinside you and, and, and
David. If you want to -- If you guys wanted to get
together and walk out,it's over.
STEVE: Well, I mean, that's what the talk
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has been, right, in the whole afternoon.
JIM: Well, I know. But, see --
STEVE: You're just keeping on saying well --
And they'resaying they'reafraid to make any move
wbecause of what, you know, everybody'slistening to the
radios and all that.
JIM: Yeah, that's abunch of baloney,
though. The radios don'tcontrol us.
STEVE: I know they don't, but,you know,
there are --and there are many thingsthat we have
heard them saying that ended upbeing so, you know.
JIM: Yeah. That, that'sall baloney. And,
look, I'mlooking at my watch and it'stwo minutes
after eight. Is anybody assaulting you?
STEVE: No.
JIM: It'snot true. It's baloney.I'm just
trying to put a straight, you know, be as straight as I
possibly can.
STEVE:Yeah.
JIM: You know, you guys are knowledgeable
theologians and stuff and it's hardfor me to talk on
that level. I mean, I don'tunderstand all those
things. I mean, I appreciate them, I'ma Christian,
but you know what I'm saying.
STEVE: Yeah. You know, I would care about
you whether you were or not, 'cause, youknow I
,
|§
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2you know,
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dictates of their conscience and,
they try to do it the best they can with what
they see, where they'reat inthis life and I don't--
.You know, I've nevercondemned or judged aperson for
that. I~mean, one thing I have learned from the Bible,
it says judge not that he be not judged. So I don't
know whatmakes anotherperson tick, you know. It's
not beengiven to me tolook at another andthen say
they're rightor wrong or whatever.
JIM: Isn't,isn't, isn't thereteachings
also that sometimes, youknow, youmake peaceor throw
down thesword or, you know,you, you love? And that's
what you guys are trying to do.
STEVE: Well, that --You know, like, you
know, that'swhat-- That hasn'teven comeup, you
know. We'vebeen talking abouta lot of issues, we
really have been, and ~-
JIM: Okay. All right, just aminute. I'm
sorry, Steve, wait aminute. He's holl
Okay. Hey, they're readyto sendthe car up. Would
ering at me.
you just tell -- ask Davidto pick whatkids he wants
and maybestartgetting themready?
STEVE: Okay. Just aminute. Unidentified
voices in background not discernible.! -
[sap]
STEVE: It'svery confusing to know evenwhat
/-. *
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to do.
_JIM= Yeah. Well, look --
STEVE: The mothers, You know, they're
standing there scared even --You know, he, he's been
saying well, do you mind sending your two now and, you
know, some of them are,are talking about they don't
know if they should go along now or what, you know.
y JIM: Why don'tthey all come in a group?
I'll guarantee -- ,
STEVE: Well, see, some of them want to, but
there's somethat don't. And they'retrying -- You
know what I mean? They're, they'reconfused.
JIM: Okay, I understand. And let's--Maybe
we -- I don't want to move too fast.
STEVE: You know what I mean? It just
happened yesterday. That's why--And, you know, there
was starting -- theywere starting to calm down
because -- I'll tell you what, the greatest relief came
was when you startedtalking to usthe way you were all
the way through and, and lastnight. I mean, everybody
felt good about it, they did, about you and the whole
thing. And then with Gary,well, you know, there was a
little bit there,but when you got back on the phone,
we thought we'd justcontinue righton with it.
JIM: You know, I've talked to all these
commanders.
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STEVE: But I'll tell you the truth and, you
know, it kind of freaked us out, though, about those
lines, because, you know, they're parents, they wanted
to talk to their kids --
JIM: I appreciate that.
STEVE:-- and say come on out and, you know,
we love you and all that. Some of them are here saying
they wantedto talk to their, their folks yet. And, soI mean, I didn'tknow what to say to them. That's why
finally we get on the phone and say well, can'tyou
leave these lines open for us.
JIM: Yeah. Well,let me ask you this,
Steve.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: If, if some of the people, some women
and maybe some children, wanted to come out, maybe they
could getin a group andwalk out. I'll guarantee
their safe conduct. They could call you, they could
tell you we'refine.
STEVE: Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't want to
interrupt you but there isa mother here, shewants to
sendher two out right now.
JIM: Okay. Let me talk to her.
STEVE: Okay, just a minute. What, what's --
And Jamie? Talking to someoneelse.!Okay, there's
two that -- two of the mothers that want to send each
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out one right now.
STEVE: Okay, yeah.
ASTEVE: Okay.
JIM: Does that mother want to come
Just ask her.
.not sure what they want to do.
come here. This happened, you know, we didn
what they want
waiting to see what do you want to do. That's
David, he'sso tired of it all that -- I heard
said and, you know, he wants them all to be so
to be able to say well, okay, it is or not and
JIM: Well,
safe and we want them
told me, now, he told
STEVE: All right.
know,they're down atthe other end. I'm lookin
¥
41
JIM: All right, listen -- Okay, Steve.
JIM: Now, let me ask you a question.
out ?
~ STEVE: They're sitting there talking, you
g at
them from a distance and I,I see them talking, but I'm
JIM: I don't --I mean, okay, listen --
STEVE: You know, aperson, you know,I'm
waiting to see what they wantto do. we'vetold them,
you know, you thinkthrough it. You know,you chose to
't want it
to.happen, so, you know,they're all giving thoughts to
to do and, and,in fact, we'rekind of
why
what he
freehand
listen, Steve, we want them to be
to be with their kids.And David
me this many -- five times, okay?
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,1 1 ' JIM: Now, this -- there'saguy that's never
broke his word tome.
3 STEVE: Okay.
JIM: I don't care what the newspaper said, I
d Ion tcare what the radio says, I'm justtelling you
6 whatJim Kavanaugh says, and every time he told me
something he stood by it.
aSTEVE: Right.
9 JIM: And he told me thati
10 someone in there who want
f there was
ed to comeout, he would let
11 them comeout.
12 STEVE: Thatis -- That alwayswill be that
13 way.
14 JIM: Okay. Now so h , w at I m asking is as a
15 sign of good faithand --
16 STEVE: Just a minute.
17 JIM: Yeah?
18 STEVE: Oh, Brian and Jake.
19 Brianand Jake, did
20
Oh, excuse me,
they ever come?
JIM: Oh, Brianand Jake.
21STEVE: I guessnot. In fact, they were --
22 Remember,you -- we were talking toyou and you never
23 got back tous on that,cause the ' y restill -- I just
24 found out theywere -- all this timethey've been
25 standing therewaiting.
JIM: Yeah.
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STEVE: I didn't knowthat. They'redown at
the -- or near the entrance even. .
JIM: Are they, are they ready now?
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: Okay. _
STEVE: Yeah. I didn'teven know that. They
said -- They told me they'vebeen waiting all this - I
totally forgot about it myself.
JIM: All right. Well, we were supposed to
get those two earlier, right?
STEVE: Exactly.
JIM: Okay. Well --
STEVE: And you said --
JIM: -- why don'tyou do this, Steve?
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Since the other mother was anxious to
get their two --
STEVE: Right.
JIM: -- put their coats on them --
srsvm All right. '
JIM: Clear it with David, now. I don't--
STEVE: No, he said -- No, he --
JIM: Okay, he said --
STEVE: -- he agrees, he says --
JIM: Then put those four kids together,
cause we were supposed to get two earlier and we
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messed up. '
STEVE: Those, those two, they're still
talking now. They don't-- They'retrying to figure
out should one send her two. They were talking about
maybe sending a little one with an older one. That's
what they'reworking on, and they said send these two.
And they'retrying to decide. You know, it'slike they
want to hug them yet and hang on --
JIM: Sure.
STEVE: -- another minute or two. So --
JIM: They'regood, they'regood mothers.
Come on.
STEVE: Okay, so the two are ready. Brian,
how old is he? How old is Brian? Two years old. And
Jake, he'show old? Did wegive you any information on
them?
JIM: NO.
STEVE: Okay, Jake is nine.He's nine years
old.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: And they're brothersto Chrissy and
to Scott that already, you know, you have them with
you.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: Let me -- I'm goingto try to help
them get going here.I guess they're,they'restill --
A0 0@; .45
i_> 1 Unidentified female voice inbackground not
. 2 discernible.! Yeah? Which one?
3 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: David.
4 STEVE: Oh, they were wondering what
I 5happened, how come they're notplaying that message any
6more onthe radio.
7JIM: We did play it. Do you have the radio
, 8 on? A
l 9 STEVE: Yeah, they do, they do.
10 JIM: Okay. We needthe, we needthe message
11 played. They didn'thear it the last time we played
12 it, the scripture message.
113 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You want the
' 14 message played?92-
15 JIM: Yeah. Tell --
Q 16 UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: Canwe get the
17 messageplayed?
18 STEVE: Jim.
19 JIM: Okay, you'vegot -- Who'd youtell?
x 20Okay, okay, we'retaking careof it.
121 STEVE: Okay, good.
K 22 JIM: Theydid playit. I don'tknow, maybe,23 you know, you missedit.
24 STEVE: Yeah.
I 25 JIM: But is-- those othermothers there?
STEVE: They're overat the other-- I canv,-
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see them. They're alittle distance away from me.
They're overthere. Ican see them talking and
discussing it right now.
JIM: Sit the phone down and talk to them,
and if they wantto send them with Brian and Jake,
because we messed up, we'll, we'll-- you know, and
David said it's okay,then we'lltake those four.
STEVE: I, I think he wants to keep on going
like he was. Isee him over here motioning, trying to
have these two get another two ready so thatthey can
go right, right almost after.
JIM:Yeah, okay. Yeah, two by two's fine.
STEVE: Okay.Let's --Okay, let's getthese
two.Where are they atnow?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Brian and Jake.
STEVE:Where are they?
JIM: Can you --
STEVE: It just said on the radio that
there's only10 children here andthey alreadyhave
them,which is ~- Ibelieve you're goingto find out
how many.There are a lot of them.
JIM: That's not true. We know that.
s'r£:vs= Okay.
JIM:You guys told me that wasn't thecase.
Okay, can we --
STEVE: Okay.
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JIM: Let me check onthe car. Hold on,
Steve.
STEVE: All right.
JIM: Have you got the car?
I UNIDENTIFIEDFEMALE SPEAKER:Yeah.
JIM:_ Okay, are the kids ready to walk out?
STEVE: Are they ready to walk out now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes.
STEVE: Yes, they are.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: Sita's right here.
JIM: All right. Well, let me talk to her.
STEVE: Okay, here she is.
SITA: Jim?
JIM: Sita, how are you?
SITA: Jittery, but --
JIM: Listen, let me tell you something,
don't be jittery and don't bescared. All that reports
onthe radio isrubbish, okay? You hear me?
SITA: Yes.
JIM: The, the - You will see some vehicles
out there. I told David and I, and I told Steve and
they knowthatit's nothing, okay? Nobody's comingin
there. Now, I've gota car at the -I'mgoing to send
itto the water tower right now.
SITA: Okay, we'll seeyou downthere then.
I
1 JIM:
4I
3 JIM:
4the kids?
5 I
6 bring.
7 JIM:
8 wanted to
9SITA
10 JIM:
l92
11 SITA
112 children.
13 JIM:92
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15 SITA
3 16 JIM:
17 SITA
t18 and Angelica.
19 JIM:
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22
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SITA:
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Hey, listen, let me ask you something?
Yeah?
Do you want to come out of there with
Hey, I got, Igot lots of kids to
Okay. Well, David said anybody who
come out could come out. Well, you ask him.
I already asked him and it'sup to me.
Okay.
Right now I'm concernedabout the
Well,why
kids and come out?
I, Iwas
Okay.
See, me,
Right. I
don't youbring the -- your
the first one.
I was the first one. Crystal
know, yeah.I know, you,
you're doinggreat. You'reworking with us.
SITA: And, you know, I was tempted --I love
those - I love all those kids.
.JIM: I know.They need you. These --Let
me tell you something,Sita, thesekids needyou. They
needall their mothers. I wish you could look at -- I
mean, they'rebeautiful, these kids, but they'vegot to
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difficult because, you know, what you say you want to
do, you're telling me you don'twant to do.
JIM: Well, no, I didn'tsay that.Do I have
one, one more little children in here? Is there one
more child here? No, we, we already brought him in.
We're bringinganother child in? Okay. Talking to
someone else.! I have another one of the children here
to talkto -- .
DAVID: Well, get on theball with that other
stuff then. '
JIM: Okay. Well, I'mgoing to see whatI ~-
DAVID: Here'sSteve. I've got to get some
rest, Jim.
JIM: Okay. Hey, listen. Hey, listen. Just
hang in there with me, okay?
DAVID: All right .
JIM: Just hang in there, all right? Hey,
we'llget your message out when this thing'sall
resolved.
STEVE:Hello, Jim.
JIM: Hey,Steve?
STEVE: Yes.
JIM: Let, let me callyou back. I'mtrying
to work on afew things.
STEVE: Thank you.
JIM: Okay.
I92
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STEVE: Thank you.Okay, bye.
iiiii
STEVE: Hello?
JIM: Hey, Steve?
¢92STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: This is Jim.
STEVE: Yes.
JIM: How you doing?
STEVE: Not bad.
JIM: Is David there?
STEVE: Yes, he is. David, you want to talk
to Jim? He wants to know what you'redoing now?
JIM: Well, one thing I wanted to do is I
wanted you to give me the phone number of that line
where you're having the trouble.
STEVE: He wanted us to give the phone number
of the line we're having trouble with. Actually, all
of them, cause noneof them are operating now, except
for one, the one you're talkingto me on now. It's the
only one that I can call or you -and it's onlyto
you.
JIM: Okay. Well, I wanted you to give me
those numbers, but I still need to talk to David, if I
could. "
STEVE: Okay. The numbers - pardon?
Unidentified voice in background now discernible.!
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They just said it on TV, that's there only one direct
line open and to you guys.
JIM: Oh, really?
STEVE: Okay, so, the first number is 863~5663.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: We haven't beenusing that one. We
didn't --We don'thave it plugged in, so I guess it
doesn't muchmatter, but --
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: And bring a phone the next time,
also. And some cord.
JIM: Let me see what we can do.
STEVE: Okay,cause this, this thing is
poor. The other number is acellular phone, is 744
2662.
JIM: Um-hum.
STEVE: And thenwe have 7 -- or 8635252.
JIM: Okay. All right. All right, I'm goingto give theseto the technical guys and --
"STEVE: And there's oneother one, come to
think of it. The other oneis -- the onethat was cut
off by -- with Waynewas 863 -- and I believe it's--
what's Wayne'snumber? W
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Five nine seven
nine.
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1 STEVE: --5979.
JIM: Okay. Okay, I'll, I'll pass it on to
the technical guys.
STEVE: Thank you much, Jim.
~J1M= But, Steve, I, I --
STEVE:We don't evencare if you monitor or
whatever else --
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: -.because, you know, it'stodo with
what we believe.
JIM: I understand.
STEVE: Okay, good.
JIM: But can I talk to David?
STEVE: Sure. Just a minute.
DAVID: Hello?
JIM: David.
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Hi. Listen, we'vegot a change we've
gotto talk about.
DAVID: All right.
JIM: Okay? Now, listen tome before you say
anything, okay? We're havinga change in the field
with these tactical commanders, okay?
DAVID: Uh-huh. '
JIM: You know, because all the agents were
shot and, you know,we're gettinga lot of pressure.
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We don'twant nobodyelse hurt. We've gotthe FBI in
here supporting us and, you know, the state police and
the National Guard. And you know that, we talked about
that yesterday.
A DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Okay. Now, the tactical commanders are
going to move the perimeter up.
DAVID: No, you keep them back.
JIM: Well, let me, let me, let me tell you
what -- the reasons and --
DAVID: I know what the reasons are, Jim.
JIM: No, David, look --
DAVID: Okay, you want to kill us, come and
kill us, Jim.
~JIM: No. Hey, David, no, we're -~this is
not it. Now, let me tell you why.
DAVID: Jim, let's stop playing around.
JIM: No, let me tell you what we did. Let
me finish. Come on, give me a chance, okay?
DAVID: They told -- Gary told us all last
night they weren't aroundhere. All the night vision
we saw them, we saw them down there digging in. Out by
the barn, out in the back, there are snipers. They've
got scopes. I mean, come on. ~
JIM: Hey, they're notgoing to do anything.
DAVID: Oh, Jim.
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JIM: David, they're not. I can walk you out
of there if you want out. And I can ~- nobody's going
to do nothing to you.
DAVID= Hey .
AJIM: But let me tell you what'sgoing to
happen, okay? We're goingto movesome ofthese big
vehicles up to the tactical position, okay? Defensive
only, okay? V
DAVID: No,
JIM: One thing that'sworrying the
commanders wereall those people thatwere inthe bush
and all those peoplemoving aroundthere. They'vegot
these vehicles that'll protecttheir men. We madethem
take the gun barrels off them. There's nogun barrels
on them, okay? You know, they haveabig gunon them.
Youguyshave alot of heavy weaponsinthere and some
of the, you know,the troops wantto be protected.
DAVID: So stayback then.
JIM: Well, but they, you know,they've gotaduty that --
DAVID: Look, let's stayback, Jim. Let's
get my kids out and we'llstarttalking again, all
right?
JIM: David, I'm afraidthey're probably
goingto be movingbefore I can stop them.
DAVID: Well --
p 92
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27
JIM: I don'twantyou to -- I wantyou to
know they'renot coming -- it'sstrictly they're taking
a position --
DAVID: Look, we already discussed -- you
already told metheywere going to do nothing until you
gave them the okay. So, like I say --
JIM: Well, they'renotcoming. whenI say
that, I mean they'renot coming in there.
DAVID: am; they're movingup closer. They
were coming in close last night. I had to do
everything I could to
JIM: Yeah.
they're justchanging
don't wantanybody to
you. They don'twant
truth. We don'twant
keep the guys off of them.
Nothing is happening except
positions and perimeters. They
be able to come in and bother
anybody to come out, that'sthe
anybody to come out unless we
agree. And we haveset up -- we're just setting up a
defensive positionandnothing progressive, nothingforattack.
DAVID: Who'sfiring guns?
JIM: We're not firing any guns.
DAVID: Jim, like I say, I figured eventually
it wasgoing toget to whereyou all was goingto startcheesing --
JIM: No, hey, we'renot cheesing.
DAVID: In your conversation. You're going
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to take another inch, another inch.
JIM: No, listen, I'm trying to tell you this
in advance as asign of good faith. I didn'twant you
I to think Iwas tricking you. I'm tellingyou this is
going to happen.
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: I'mbeing straight up. You're not
going to see the vehicles drive upand say Jim lied.
I'mtelling you they're comingbecause they feel
they've gotchange their, you know, perimeter. And --
DAVID: They're going to come on our
property, in other words?
going to happen.
DAVID: Well, get the details and call me
back.
JIM: Well, look, I had them take off the gun
barrels to show you there's no--
DAVID: Come on, Jim.
JIM: Huh?
DAVID: I said come on, Jim. The perimeter
is our property line,okay? We wantthese guys off our
property line.
JIM: Okay. Well,I'm, you know, I'm going
to see what I can do. I can't ~-
JIM: Well, I don't-- I'mnot sure that's
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JIN: Ican'tmake thatpromise, David.
DAVID: Okay, they, they want to kill us,
'they've gotthe big guns now.
JIM: Nobody wants tokill you.
-NDAVID: Hey--
JIM: Nobody wants to kill you.
DAVID: Jim --
JIM: Trust - hey, I'm notgoing tolet
them --nobody'sgoing tokill you. All we're doingis
changing a position. It's going to look like a lot of
activity. They're not coming in there. Nobody's
coming in there.
DAVID: Then tell them to stay off our
property.
JIM: Okay. Well, just bear with me.
DAVID: Or there are going to be some tears.
JIM: No, let's nothave any trouble. Come
on, you can work withme.
DAVID: Yeah, come on, you can work withme I
Jim.
JIM: Come on, David.
DAVID: We'vegot a deal going now with the
children getting out.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Okay? Now, if that don't mean
anything to you orthese hotheads, then we'll haveto
30
deal with that later in the judgment, won'twe?
JIM: No, wewant to get the kids out. We v
want to get everybody out. And I don'twant anybody to
get hurt. - r
A DAVID:Like I said,do what Isay then.
JIM: Not any of your people.
DAVID: Then do what I say, Jim. Otherwise,
come on in here and wipe us out. -
JIM: No, that's notgoing to happen.
Nobody's cominginthere to wipe you out.
DAVID: Get on the phone andcall those guys
and tell themlet'sfinish up ourplan and-- they've
got plenty of time, you know,to movetheir tactical
stuff after the kids are out, you know. You don'tneed
to be messingaroundrightnow, like a bunch of little
Boy Scouts.
JIM: Well, David --
DAVID: Theythink they'remature, they think
they're men.They've gotlogical thinking.They, theythink they love the innocent. All right.
JIM: Well, David, let me askyou, howmany
kids - you won'ttellme andI, I don'tknow how manymore --
DAVID: You'regoing to find out.
JIM: Well, I know, but why is that a secret?
We're just trying to help getthem out.And, and,you
C .
31
know, I can't give them atime frame. I mean, what
they're saying is we'vegot to protect the public from
stray rifle fire, if that would occur, and --
DAVID: The, the pub1ic's not even out here,
all right?
JIM: Well, they're, they'reout on that
highway.
DAVID: We're way out here.
JIM: Yeah, but there, there's a lot of
people on those highways.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Reporters. I'm telling you --
DAVID: So what is your time limit that
you're going to come in here and bust --
JIM: We'renot coming in. We are not coming
in. We are not coming in.
DAVID: Well, if you keep getting closer,
we're goingto retaliate. And then you're goingto
have to come in, and that's just the way it is,Jim.
I'msorry.
JIM: Well, David --'
' DAVID: You're goingto keep moving your
erratic finger closer and closer to our rear ends,and
then finally we're goingto turn around and we're going
to slug you.
JIM: Yeah.
32
DAVID: I mean, I don'twant that to happen.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: You know, Imean, this is a great
nation, but, like I said, it's not bigger than my God.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Now, the whole meanings of what I'm
trying to tell you in theseals is I'mthe little guy
now.
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay, you tried to push me.
JIM: I'm not pushing you.
DAVID: No,let me, let me say your- I just
saw Robert Gonzalez on the TV, you know. They tried to
push me. And you did. But, remember, I tried to tell
you about God who judges all nations.
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: I'mthe little guy, you'rethe big
QuY-
JIM: No, I'm notthe big guy.
DAVID: You know, the Goliath, I'm the David.
Remember that. Remember, David took five smooth
stones. And we're inthe fiith seal now, okay?
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: And Goliath does get his head sunken
in with arock. Think about that.
JIM: Well, listen, David, I, I don't want
92 r
33
you toput more into this than is happening.
DAVID: Hey --
JIM: It's not.
DAVID: -- the same, the same, all right?
AJIM: Okay.
DAVID: You tell these guys to back off.
We're theones thatare edgy.Really we'renot, but,like I say, if they want to keep playing around, then
they'll find out what we've got,okay? g
JIM: Yeah. Listen, okay. I just want you
torelax. Call meif you see them moving. A
DAVID: You call them and then you call me,
okay? Do what you can, Jim.
STEVE: Okay. Let me talk to Steve just a
minute.
DAVID: Okay, here.
JIM: I want to explain it to him. Steve,
hello?
STEVE: Hello?
JIM: Steve?
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: Hey, this is Jim.
STEVE:Okay, Jim. '
JIM: Listen, now, I've told David and I'm--
I want to tell you, too.
STEVE: All right.
92 F
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34
JIM: We'regoing to have a change in they
perimeter. This is -- it's defensive,okay? Now,
you're goingto see these vehicles moving and you'll
see where they're setup, okay? Just bear with me now.
*STEVE: I'mlistening.
JIM: And once they go to theirposition and
stop, they're not coming any closer?
STEVE: Pardon? Imissed the last part.
JIM: I, I said they're notcoming any
closer. Wherever you see them go and stop, okay?
STEVE: They'regoing to be on the perimeter
of the property?
JIM: They'regoing to -- yeah, they're going
to set up aperimeter out there, okay? And, now, I
told David, these are like big vehicles, three vehicles
that will protect an agent from getting shot, okay?
STEVE: And what would an agent be doing near
here anyway?
JIM: Well, we're, we'retrying to get around
so nobody goes in. You know all the trouble we had
last night with thosepeople in the bushes, youknow.
STEVE: No, I can't. Talking to someone
else.! '
JIM: Steve?
STEVE: Yes.
JIM: You know all that stuff we had, people
35
inthe bushes andyou guys--your men sawpeople and
our men saw people. And, you know, that's one thing we
can put an end to. When these things, these vehicles
move in, it protects us and it protects you. And they
don't have guns on them.
STEVE: Jim, I mean, what you're saying, I
mean, it would sound good to a kindergartner, you know
that?
JIM: No. .Steve, trust me. We had the gums
taken off them.They're just so the agents don't get
shot,that's all. You guys got some heavy stuff in
there.-
STEVE: We do?
JIM: Yeah. I mean, you know,assault rifles
and, I mean,you know, that'dgo right through a car.
I mean, so --
STEVE: Just a moment. Unidentified voices,
in background not discernible.! Jim, what part of the
property?
JIM: Well,I'm going to --I have to check
on that to find out,okay? What I want you todo is
pass the word, tell everybody they'recoming. When
theystop, that's wherethey'llstay,okay? They're
notgoing tomove around. And then whenyou seethem,
you call me. But they'renotcoming in.
STEVE: I don'tlikethis, David. I don't
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like it at all.
JIM: It's, it's only three vehicles.
STEVE: Well, what is the -- there, there is
not a good reason, from our perspective, why you're
doing such a thing at this point of time.
JIM: Well, it's foryour safety --
STEVE: No, it's not. It's not at all. I
see ~- Idon't see that.
JIM: Well,there's already been too much
bloodshed, Steve, and --
STEVE: And you wantto cause more.
JIM: No.
STEVE: Is that the idea?
JIM: N0.
STEVE: .Well, then why are you bringing such
things?
JIM: No, no, we don't -
STEVE: You see what we're doing?We're
moving on, aren't we? We keepon moving out, and now
you want to bring something so close. And what, what
kind of vehicles are you talking about?
JIM: Well,we'vegot --the reason we're
doing it is we'vegot newpersonnel, we'rechanging
shifts. We've got other agents -- -
STEVE: You don't, don't-Jim, you don't
need to tell me why you'redoing it. I mean, it's
37
quite obvious why you'redoing it.
JIM: Well,no. You rememberlastnight when
you saw all those men moving? ,,W_
STEVE: I never did. -
¢~JIM: Well,I know, but your guys did, okay?
we're puttinga stop to that. We're notgoing tohave
anybody moving like these ~- whoever was out there,
snipers, whatever. We're notgoing tohave that.
STEVE: I ended up believing you, remember?
You -- I tooka littletime each time and then we
workedit out even then.
JIM: Right. Remember todaywhen you toldme
those menwere at the fence? We're notgoing to havethat -- i
End of Tape #8.!
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_ v __
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURYBUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #9
3/1/93
that,
there
this?
the
are
same thing
start tape #9!
STEVE: Where did
order to do that?
JIM: Well, I don
so many officers.
STEVE: I thought
JIM: Yeah, we ar
STEVE: Okay, why
JIM: Well, I kno
STEVE: The same
JIM: Yeah. Well
STEVE: Do you un
2
they get the command to do
't know.You know, so ~-
all of you were together on
e. But there's alot of
people hereand,you know, theymoved upcloser than
they should have, so we pulled them back. But these --
don't you,why don'tyou --
this? We'reworking alongwith you on this.
w, but I don't-- we don't
want people around there on foot. We don't--
goes, we don't wantyou
there. Do you wantus to set somepeople upon the
edge soyour peopleor ours don't goany -- It's the
,you --
derstand, Jim?
JIM: Steve, I do. But, look, there'san
STEVE TO UNIDENTI
advantage here for you, okay? That is --
FIED PARTY: What's the
advantage forus to have threeof the heavy vehicles
sitting right on theedge ofthe property?He's tryingto say it's toour advantage,because thatway wewon't
I
3
have peoplethat we see movingaround andthey won'teither.
real.
things.
JIM: Hey, Steve.
STEVE: Jim, you know, David's sayingget
JIM: You'll, you'll beable to see these
STEVE: Yeah, we could see achopper. We
could see what you pulled in the front. I don'tcare
where it
vehicles
is, when it'sthatclose - What kind of
are you talking about?
JIM: Well, they're --
STEVE: Somekind of armored vehicles?
JIM: Yeah.It's what they call an APC.
STEVE: APC, total armored vehicle.
JIM: You can't shoota bullet through it.
STEVE: I know you can't.
JIM: Yeah. That's, that's,that's whywewant to put it there.
and --
guns off
STEVE: I'msure, so thatyou can shoot at us
JIM: N0.
STEVE: -~ so forth.
JIM: There'sno guns on them. We took the
You can look at them.There's no --
STEVE: Howmany guysare going to be in each
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have their mothers. And I want you, and Iwant you to
do is talk to David. Well, we've gotto get these two
guys out right now, these two kids, because the car's
waiting.
SITA: Okay.
JIM: But I want you to think about it and I
want you to talk to Steve and David about some of the
mothers coming, and also, you know, some of the kids
and -~ I don'twant to rush
SITA: I want all
JIM: I, I'mjust
wound and infections and --
okay? And I think he wants
the kids out.
concerned that David's
I'mjustworried about him,
to keep going a little
longer than I do because I'mworried about his
condition. I can get you out of there.
SITA: NO.
JIM: All right, I'll tell you what, you go
ahead and take those kids now.
SITA: Okay.
JIM: Okay, Sita.
SITA: Okay, here's Steve.
JIM: All right.
STEVE: Okay, Jim.
JIM: All right.
job.
STEVE: Yeah, she
She, she'sdoing a good
was getting pretty broke up
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right then.'
SITA: Yeah, she loves those kids, man, Ican
tell.She needs to be with her kids, though.
STEVE:She knows. She's just concerned
about someof theseothers, too. Shewants to
encourage them, that's why,you know, she's talkingto
some of these other -- .
JIM: Well, Ifeel like, I feel likeSita
trusts me, though. _
STEVE: Well, she does.
JIM: And --
SITA: Youknow,she has said thatright along. She definitely likesyou.
JIM: Yeah. Well, she's been real good. I
don'tknowhow wewould have done it without her or
you. I mean, you guys have been great.It's just hard
to workout thesethings.
STEVE: You know, we'venever been in
anything like this.
JIM: But, listen, we have gotten - This
is -- the wayyou're goingand thewaywe'reworking
together, we'regoing to, we'regoingto resolve it.
STEVE: Well, you know,we'retrying to
keeping on plugging on. Youknow,it gets so hard
because people are getting emotional in here and
they're, they'rescared, youknow.A lot of them are
.
51
terrified. I
JIM: Yeah. Well, I can understand that.
And Ithink you, you know, you may come to a point when
you all get together with David and you say David, you
know, wewantto go out andwe want to go out as a
group. We are a group. We are --
STEVE: Some of them here, that's what
they're talkingabout wanting to do.
JIM: Yeah, Imean, we're onepeople, we
want to stay together and we want to all come out, you
know. You'llbe saving his life,man, I'm tellingyou
you'll besaving his life. I mean, I, I know you love
him more than anything, between you and me. Between
you and me, you love the guy. Come on.
STEVE: Well,you know, I, I like everybody,
I do. You know, I --
JIM: Yeah, but you love that guy.
STEVE: Well, I appreciate him. Ihave a
great, you know, Ido, Ido love the guy alot.
JIM: Imean, you love that guy. Come on. I
It's not just like a,a friend. Imean, you've gotat
deep love for this guy.
STEVE: Oh, you know, Ihave, though, that
for a lot of people, Ireally do. You know, I mean,
he, he'sshown mea lot and shareda lot and, you know,
I haven't-I'veseenwhat he'sbeen sayingand, you
rk
;' 21
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know, I'vehad to wrestle with it myself and, you know,
it's anup and down thing for sure. But --
JIM: Well --
STEVE: Yeah, let's keepon working on this.
I mean, there'sa greater satisfaction to accomplishing
something --
JIM: Steve --
STEVE: Yeah?
JIM: --I want to give you something to, to
think about.
but
and
got
you
STEVE: All right.
JIM: Okay? I don'tknow if I can do this,
what I'mgoing to do isI'mgoing to go back there
talk to some commanders.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: These guys are in here, man, they've
scrambled eggson their hats and generalsstars,
know.
STEVE: Right. '
JIM: And I want to tell them about our
conversations.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: And I'm goingto see if, just a
possibility now --
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Okay, the possibility now, we
C
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1 understand?
2STEVE: Okay.
3 JIM: 'Cause Idon'twantyou to get mad if,
4if Ican'twork it out. That if I was ableto get I
5mean a major, major broadcastof your word out --
6STEVE: Um-hum.
7JIM: I'm talkingabout -- I'm nottalking _ Babouttheradiostation in Dallas.I'm talkingabout
9 some major thing. _
10 * STEVE: Okay.
11JIM: Would youall come out? I mean, would12: you all --
13 STEVE: Can I, can Iput it to David, because
14 that'swhat he'sbeentalking about?
15 JIM: Okay. I mean --
16 STEVE: Imean, even tonight-- What is it,
17it'sMondayandwhat about --Isit a possibilitymaybe18_ of Ted Koppel or something?
19JIM: I meansomething, somethingthatwould20 bedynamic.
I 21STEVE: Yeah.
22JIM: I mean,you know,I'm not-- You'dhave23 to let us workout the, the details, but --
' 2 4192 A srsva = Right.
25 JIM: -- it's just a possibility that--
Don't putalot of things on meI can'tdeliver.
4
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54
STEVE: Yeah, I understand.
JIM: You know, Ted Koppel and all these news
stars, you know. You, you leave it to me to get
something that will be acceptable to you, if we_can
work it out.
' s'r2vs=Uh-huh. Well --
JIM: You know, maybe something that's more,
you know, Ted Koppel, you know, I mean, who's watching
that? I mean, I need to watch -- to get it to the
people who are religious.
STEVE: Well, let me mention it to him, at
_least, here.
JIM: Yes. Okay, let's see, did -- Steve?
STEVE TO KORESH: He'snot promising or
anything, he doesn't know if he can even do it. If
it's possible if hecould put you in touch withthe,
the best news coverage possible -- I mentioned like the
Ted Koppel --he sayswould you as a group come out
together and --
MR. KORESH: Can'tdo that.
STEVE: Well, he'ssaying hecan't do that
because he wantsthem to have the choice, you know,
every one of them, and he don't -He wantsthem to be
able to I guess move ontheir own without --Some of
them, you know, they'rescared and all the rest.
JIM: Yeah. Well, look, maybe you can talk
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55
to him, you know.
STEVE: Yeah. _
JIM: I think it would be something real
positiveAand, you know, real positive for everybody
concerned. And we'd getyou out safely, we'd get t¢
treat his wounds.
STEVE: Well, he was wondering there couldn't
be at least a line openedup back to the radio or
something. -
JIM: Well, you know, we can work on that.
STEVE: Could you? While we're movingwith
the kids, could you do that?
am. Well, 1-11, 1'11go check on it. 1'11
try to --
STEVE: I mean, you know, Alex, you know, you
can tell the guy'snot a, a guy that's given to
positiveness over religious_things anyway. So that's
fine, you know, if he wants to ask his tough questions
or whatever. V
JIM: Steve.
.STEVE: Yeah?
JIM: The commanders are -- they'reasking me
where's thekids.Have they left?
' STEVE: I don't- Just a minute, let me find
out, because she'snot here any longer. Have the kids
left?
.
<
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left?
JIM: Send them up to the water tower now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Have the kids
STEVE: Okay. Yeah, they --
End of Tape #9.! _
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'u.s. DEPARTMENTop THE TREASURYBUREAU or ALCOHOL, TOBACCO aFIREARMS
TAPE #1oA
3/1/93
C
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small child ren! crying in background of most of tape!
STEVE: Really, it is.
JIM: It is. It's going good andit's going
to go good.
ASTEVE: It feels like being on a -- up and
down on waves here, but --
JIM: Yeah, I know.
STEVE: Should I callyou back then or are
you going to callme back or --
JIM: Tell you whatI want to do is justget -- ~
STEVE: Pardon?
JIM: I want to just get the kids -- I want
to just tell you we got them safe.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PARTY: He's goingto
work on that. He said he'sgoing to work on getting a
line for you there, you know, with the radiostation or
whatever.
JIM: Steve?
STEVE: You know thereis one thing. A
couple of these guys that haven'tmadeup their mind,
they're, they'resaying thereare guys in camouflage
that they, thatthey see them right now. They've got
like brush and stuff stuck in their helmets. They're
in camouflage, they're, they'repositively on the
property. You know, we, we -- You know, you said about
92
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3
those --
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: --those kind of vehicles being
there?
»JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: Well, that - Okay, you, you said it,
we were going along and,you know, the, the-- we're
moving with the kids. But who are they? I mean, what
arethey doing there? You know, Ireally thought you
had control over these vehicles.
JIM: You know, there'sa lot of perimeter
movement, Iunderstand that.
STEVE: Imean that's thekind of thing that
makessome of thesepeople nervous. They don't wantto
be, you know, they'rewondering what'sgoingon and
they'reafraidto move. A lot of them are sitting here
kind of likealmost frozen.
JIM: Yeah, Iknow, but nobody'scoming in.
You have my word. Iknow there's perimeter --
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: -- people, Steve. I, Iknow thereis.,
STEVE: What are they doing on the property
and all that?
JIM: Yeah, I'm notmaking a secretof that.
But I guesswe've got to, you know, we've gotto kind
of, like I saidearlier, you know, get more toward the
92 92 92
92 1
4
brass tacks, and that is --
STEVE: Well, that's what we want to do, but,
you know, I mean, you did tell us, you know, that they
wouldn't beon the property. And you mentioned where
the others would be and, and you told the truth.
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: So I, I'm just wondering why those,
those guys are where they're atthere.
JIM: Yeah, I'm goingto have to get back
with those commanders.
STEVE: Can you?
JIM: Yeah, I will. I'm goingto have to go
back --
STEVE: I, I really believe it'll make it
easier if you don't-- if there's noone like that.
There's goingto be people here that are going to be
feeling much more safe and, and -- I mean, cause, you
know, it'snight, they don't knowwhat'sgoingon, they
don't knowwhere these people mightend up being.
They're, they'rescared.
' JIM: I know. Look, here's what --
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Here's what we'regoingto have to do.
STEVE: All right. '
JIM: As soon as we get thesekids hooked up,
I'mgoingto go back and talk to these commanders --
E 92
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5
STEVE: All right. Okay.
JIM: -- about that perimeter motion, okay?
swsvs: Right .
JIM: And, and some of these issues we've
discussed. A
STEVE: Right, okay.
JIM: I've got to round them up. There's B
bunch of them in here.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: And --
STEVE: And call me back then?
JIM: No, because I want to hook these kids
up, okay? And, and, and, and David said that he wanted
to keep the kids coming out.
srsvs: Right .
JIM: And you've gotthese other two, Chrissy
and ~- You've gotBrian and Jake are coming out and
you've got Chrissy and Scott.
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: So what, what I want you to do, I've
got Henry here, okay?
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: He'sbeen with me all through this.
STEVE: All right.
JIM:_ Okay? Helping me, setting up the car,
doing everything, okay?
E .
6
1 STEVE: Yeah. "S
2 JIM: He's personalwith me. I know the guy,
3 he'sgolden, okay? We've workedevery -- Everything
4we've worked out stands.
5 ASTEVE: Okay.
6 JIM: Okay, he'snot going to make any
7 lchanges tothe, you know, he's goingto try to work
8with you. He knows all the agreements, he sat and went
9 through everything. '
10 STEVE: Okay.
11 JIM: Okay?
12 STEVE: Yeah.
13 JIM: And he, he really is a good fellow,
14' okay?And I want you to just talk with him on the
15 mechanics of getting Chrissy and Scott out, okay? And
16 then, and then, you know, just to continue with it,
17 okay?
18 STEVE: Yeah.
19 V JIM: While I go try to work on these
20 commanders. As long as we'redoing this, I mean, it's
21positive.
22ASTEVE: Okay.
23 JIM: Okay?
24 STEVE: Is it okay if I get off the phone
25 here and talk with them then?
JIM: Okay, wait. There's avehicle
92
1 approaching.
C2STEVE
3 JIM:
4 92 STEVE
5here and-
6 JIM:
7STEVE
8 JIM:
9 STEVE
10 JIM:
11 talk to Henry a
12 you know, David
13 has amind to.
14 STEVE
15 saying to them.v
. 16 look, you know,
17 now he's laying
18
19 JIM:
20 STEVE
. 31
92 22 JIM:
23
24 I STEVE
, 25
JIM:
7
:Okay.
You know --
:.1 tellyou, I'm soweak I'mstanding
Just hang with me one second, Steve.
:Okay.
Listen --
:I'm tired.
-- what I want you -- After, after you
while, and he'llgive you a break, but,
can convince everyone to come out if he
: Well,you know, that's what he'sbeen
He again said to these people, he said
he's alreadytold them. And like right
back because he's, heis, you know, I'm
telling you he can hardlytalk.
Yeah.
= He mustered up what he could to talk
with you, but he is tired.
Well,you, you've gotto work with him,
you've got to - y w
: Well,that's what I need to do now.
That's what I wanted to do.
Okay. Let me just tellyou we've got
|
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the kids --'
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: -- and then you can work out with Henry
just atime to, you know, to keep bringing people out
and, yousknow,the kids anyway. Trust me, Steve, Henry
won't letyou down now. Iwouldn't give you anybody
that you couldn't trust.
STEVE: Right.
JIM: I mean, the guy'sfirst-rate, okay?
STEVE:Okay.
JIM: Everything hesays right down the line,
okay? Okay, the cars are there.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: The commanders are telling me the cars
are there.You okay?
STEVE:Yeah. Oh, I'mgetting tired. There,
there, you know, there'speople all over the place here
and --
JIM: You know -- Okay, the kids are out?
You know, you guys talkabout it. Nobody'scoming in
there.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: You'vegot my word, its solid, it's
1,000 percent absolute, okay? '
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Iknow, Iknow thateverybody's
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skittish, but, you know, we've justgot to work on the
kids and we've gotto let -- What are they saying on
the radio, 10 kids?
STEVE: Yeah. Wait. Indiscernible voice in
background! David, he believes that you'refixing to
hit us tonight, he says.
JIM: No, we are not fixing to hit you. That
is not true.
STEVE: I mean,here's, here's this crazy
radio again, you know. Imean, where, where are they
getting that information?
JIM: You know, that is baloney. It's
rubbish.
. STEVE: The newsmedia was told to get out of
the way and to back way off, much farther back than
what they are even now. Why is that?
JIM: Nobody'scoming in there. A thousand
percent absolute guarantee. I'mpromising you, it's
true, okay? Do we got those kids? Okay. Steve?
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: Let mecheck here. Hold on a second.
STEVE: Theseguys arebeing toldto moveback ahalf-mile more even for safety. Safety of what?
' JIM: Okay. I'msorry, for what?
STEVE: We'relistening -- Right now on the
newsall the press is, is being told to moveback a
.
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10
half-mile more for their own safety. What are they
talking about?
JIM: Yeah. Oh, well, what they'redoing is
they don'twant them inany of the - They'vebeen
crawling down our backs, all those reporters. Crawling
down our backs.
STEVE: well, their comments are, you know,
for safety, that they don't gethurt and so forth. I
B18311 , WOW -
JIM: Oh, yeah, but that's not -That's
normal. We don't wantthem there. I mean, they've
raced in real fast early and, you know,now we're just
trying to get them back and clear the road. It's
nothing,trust me. And it means nothing.I'd liketo -- Tell you what, I'dlike to move them back to
Arkansas, they'resuch a pain inthe neck.
STEVE: I suppose.
JIM: And the policemen are just glad, you
know, yougo out and the lieutenant says get rid of all
the reporters. What do you thinkthe policeman does?
Tries to kick their butt back amile, so don'tit's
no big thing.Okay, look --
STEVE:Yeah.
JIM: - I've got-- Hold on. .
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: We'vegot the
kids. They'reontheir way back. We haveanother car
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11
in to pick up two more.
JIM: Okay, we'vegot the kids.
STEVE: Okay. '
JIM:They're safe.
ASTEVE: Okay.
JIM: They're on the way back here.
STEVE: Canyou -- Can I get off the phone
and then have them call again? And we're workingon
the other two. _
JIM: All right.
STEVE: I'mgoing to go talk -- try to talk
to these mothers.
JIM:Okay.
STEVE: And try to get them going then right
away. 'Causeright now they're trying to decide. If I
could encourage them somehow.
Hello, Jim?
JIM:Hold on, hold on aminute.
STEVE : Okay .
JIM: Hold on. They're,they're goingto
tell mesomething from the car.
STEVE: All right.
[gap]
JIM:Okay, I'm sorry.Okay, I'lltell you
what, let's --~
STEVE : Okay .
r
s
I
I, 92
down here
able to.
I'm still
think --
12
JIM: --can we take, take abreak? .
STEVE: Oh, thanks.
JIM: Can you --
STEVE: I'mgoing to actually kind of lay
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: - in just a minute.
JIM: Take abreak. Can you call me here?
STEVE: Yeah. Well, so far, I haven't been
I tried to call you about 10 minutes ago and
not able to get out.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: What do you think? Is it-- Do you
JIM: All right, hold on, let me check on it.
STEVE: All right.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: When, when should I call you?
JIM: Have you got that set up? Talking to
someone else.! Okay, listen, Steve --
set it to
STEVE: Yeah. 4g
JIM: -- you pick up the phone --
s'rr~:v.-=3 =Right .
JIM: -- and I'mgoing to have the technician
ring my number.
STEVE: Okay. You mean like right now, just
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92-
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to try it?
H18.
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY:
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY:
STEVE
HENRY:
STEVE
HENRY:
STEVE
13
You want to try it right now?
If you want.
Yeah.
I mean, would that be the thing or --
Yeah. Let's hang up, hang up.
Okay.
Just leave it hang up for 15 seconds.
All right.
And then pick it up and see if you get
Okay, I'll try.
* ** 1Q
Hello?
Steve?
Yeah.
This is Henry.
Henry?
Yeah.
Oh, okay. Henry, it'snot working.
Did you dial?
Yeah, I did.
Don't dial. Just pick it up and --
Oh, I see.
- just hold it.
Just -- Okay.
F 92
,-
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HENRY: You don't haveto dial at all, just
pick it up and just hold it.
STEVE: I see. Okay, let me try to - Can I
try it again?
AHENRY
STEVE
STEVE
HENRY:
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
Sure.
Okay, thanks. I'll call you back.
iiiii
Hello?
Hello, Steve?
Yes.
This is Henry.
Henry, how areyou doing?
Good. How are you doing?
Well,I tried to call you back but I
guess it didn't work.
HENRY: Okay. We have the kids here, but
just before we get to the kids, we have the APC's that
are going to be moving in.
STEVE: The, the which?
HENRY: The carriers thatare moving into the
general perimeter of the area. Remember, we talked
about that earlier?
STEVE: Aren'ttherealready three here or
something?
HENRY: Well, those, those are the ones that
we talked about, but they have never been -- they have
1
15
never moved intoposition. They're goingto be moving
into position now. I want to let you know that so
that -
STEVE: Okay.
aHENRY: Okay?
STEVE: Yeah. They're movingthree -- What
are they called?
HENRY: APC's.
STEVE: --_APC'sintoposition now that they
had mentioned, which they hadn't doneyet, Talking to
someone else.!
HENRY: But they have no -- Yeah, they don't
have the, they don'thave the capability to shoot.
STEVE: Okay.
HENRY: Okay?
STEVE: Okay.
HENRY: The, the cannon and the muzzles were
removed, so everything should be fine.
s'rsv.=:= Okay.Unidentified voicein
background not discernible.!
HENRY: Okay, and we have the kids --
STEVE: It'snot Jim. Henry, what happened
to Jim then?
l HENRY: He is working on-- I'mnot sure
exactly what he's workingon. He'sworking withthe,
with the --some of our brass on working out some of
I 92 92
16
the details. What we'dlike to try todo is we'dlike
totry to continue bringing kids out and any other
people that are ready tocome out.
STEVETO UNIDENTIFIED PARTY: Okay.S0
they'd liketocontinue bringing the kids out and any
others thatwant to come out. He'stalking tothe
brass, I don'tknow aboutwhat. Unidentified voice in
background not discernible.!
STEVE: He wantsJim to give him a call as
soon as the van is here, I guess. .
HENRY:Okay. Is Jake -- I have Jake here,
or Jacob. .
STEVE:Okay.
HENRY: Who would Jacob be talking to?
STEVE: Who would Jake be talking to? Hehas
Jake there, of course, and little Brian. Unidentified
female voice in background not discernible.!
[gap]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Jake?
HENRY:This is Henry. Who is this?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Can I have
Jake, please? _
HENRY:Yes.you certainly may.Hold on justa second.
JAKE: Hi.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Hi. I love
14
17
1 you. I love you. Tell Brian, okay? Tell Brian I love
2 him, okay? I'vegot to go. Put the other guyback on
3 the phone.
4JAKE: Bye.
S A
6 HENRY: Hello?
I love you. Tell me, tell me you love me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Bye.
7 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:Put thé guy
8 éback on the phone
9 HENRY :
10
11HENRY:
12 [gap]
13 HENRY:
[gap]
HENRY:15
16 STEVE:
17 HENRY:
18 STEVE:
19 then or --
20 HENRY:
21 he'stalking to,
22 STEVE:
23
24
25
Huh?
Hello?
Hello?
Hello?
Henry?
Yes.
So is Jim
Well, not
to some of
Well, can
soon as he's readythen,because the next two --
HENRY: We'reready now. If you're
to send two other people now, I'll, I'llwork
arrangements right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Okay.
92getting back on the phone
1 just now. He's, youknow,
our ~°- .
you have him call bank as|
ready to,
tose
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18
STEVE: Well,that's whatDavid ishoping,that, you know, to try --
HENRY: Okay, that's fine. We'll work it
right now.
ASTEVE: All right .
HENRY: Are you, are you ready to send them
right now? A
STEVE: Well, he mentioned -- What,did you
want to talk to Jim about the next two that you have
or -- Yeah, he says him and Jim'sgot the deal going
and he wants to keep on talking with Jim, I guess.
HENRY: Well, I'd like to - Can I talk to
him for just a second?
STEVE: Okay. He wants to talk to yow.
MR. KORESH: Hello?
HENRY: How are you doing?
MR. KORESH: Kind of weak. How are you boys
doing.
HENRY: How do you feel now?
MR. KORESH: How do I feel now?
HENRY: Um-hum. ~
MR. KORESH: Just a little pain.
HENRY: Okay. What we'dlike to do, David,
is we'dlike to continue working aswe were before.
We'd liketo continue bringing out additional children,
as best aswe can, with the same agreement that we had
19
before. And we'd liketo work, if possible, you know,
everybody has a concern here about you. We feel that,
you know, that you'renot really taking care of
yourself. We don't wantanything to happen to you.
We'd likefor you to consider coming out yourself.
We want everybody to come out, we want
everybody to come out of this alive. We don't wantyou
to give up, and we feel that you are. That'sa great
concern to, to all of us.
MR. KORESH: Well, like I was telling Jim,
you know, I told Jim to, to look into that Bible. I
told him to look into Revelation4and 5. I told him
to look into those seals. Now, if you look at the, the
fifth seal, if you look at the sixth seal, if you look
into Isaiah 13, if you lookin Joel 2, if you look into
the back of Nahum, what's fixingto happen has already
been foretold. I teach seven seals.
Now, whatever that means, you know, I'd like
to talk with you guys in full.I'd like you to grab a
Bible, sit down and follow me word by word, see what
the ancients have foresaw. And that way we'dhave a
better understanding. But I realize that, you know,
most of you are not ready for that. You've gotyour
own wayof doing things. ~ A
HENRY: Well,one of the concerns that we
have, you know, that I feel that you may have is you
r
92.
,
mentioned
calling y
may in fa
whereas i
save your
20
earlier that you felt that people were
oua cult leader, okay? If you giveup, that
ct be the impression that everybody has,
f you continue to fight in terms of trying to
life and continue to lead your people, that's
not the impression that will be created.
And your
person.
everybody
need you,
MR. KORESH: Look -- .
HENRY: You'vebeen a family person, okay?
family -- _
MR. KORESH:Oh, I'mdefinitely a family
HENRY: And your family needs you. And
wants to see you come out of this alive.
MR. KORESH: Look, Henry --
HENRY: Everybody needs you. These people
the kids need you.
MR. KORESH: You're notgoing to listen to
me, are you?
fixing to
a governm
ancient e
HENRY: I will listen to you.
M. KORESH: Okay, you'relistening now?
HENRY: Yes, I am.
MR. KORESH:Okay. The event that you're now
witness is you're fixingto see a government,
ent that'sbeen blessed --See, there was an
mpire called Babylon.
HENRY: Um-hum.
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21
MR. KORESH:Land of the Chaldeans. And
before Babylon ruled the then-known world, God had a
people that he brought out of Egypt and God had given
them laws and statutes and God had stated unto Israel,
which wasacult because they had one leader, Moses,
and one righthand man, Aaron, and God says and~
promised that if they will keep his laws he'll make
them the head of all nations. If they break his laws,
he'll scatter them amongst the nations and the nations
of the heathens will rule over them.
So for many, many hundreds of years God
forebores his people. But, finally, the days came when
Israel became worse than the heathens. So God arose
prophets such as Isaiah, Hosea, Obadiah, Malachi,
Zephaniah, Habakkuk, you know, these prophets, Nahum.
And Godforetold in these prophetshow thatthey'd be
scattered amongst the nations. In the Book of Daniel,
Daniel was shown, while under the Chaldean captivity,
he was shown that the nations of the earth that shall
rule over God's peoplewill be symbolized as one great
image, and the image will be head of gold, arms of
silver, belly of brass, legs of iron, feet part of iron
and part of clay. .
And Daniel says to the king, Nebuchadnezzar,
the highest ruling position of the land inthat day,
Daniel says thou oh, King, of this head of gold, and
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22
after thee shallarise another kingdominferior to
thee, and yet athird kingdom of brass. And then a
fourth kingdom, dreadful and terrible, it shall cometh
the whole world.
A HENRY:Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And then there shall be a
kingdom that shall be at the ten toes, partlystrong
and partlybroken. So when Rome split up under the
nomadic kingdoms, it fell into many different kingdoms.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:We knowit asEurope. Now,
Daniel goes on to explain that while Europe is still in
existence, he goes on to say indiscernible! behold a
stone, came and smote the image in the feet and they
had gold and silver and brassand iron, was all made as
the chaff of the summer threshing floors. Well, this
stone is the subject of which the Book of Revelation
talksabout. It talks about thatwhich must be
hereafter, that God will one day in the future, in the
end of the world, shall come and siton his thronein
heaven, and there'll be one question asked in heaven.
The question is who is worthy to open this
book? The book is in the righthand of God. And to
lose these seven seals thereof, scripture clearly
teaches Christendom, that no man in heaven nor on earth
neither under earth was able to openand he looked
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23
thereon.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORBSH: But the lamb, the lamb is
symbolized as alamb with seven eyes and seven horns.
You know, God creates things in seven days, doesn't he?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Okay. There's only one many who
knows what that book teaches. But for the sake of
humanity, the acid testrevolving around the subjects
in this book revolve around Christ in heaven, opening
the seals, and what is witnessed is aman on a white
horse, aman on a red horse, black and pale. Dead
souls under the altar described to God because of their
blood that'sbeen shed, and then the time whenthesun
and moon and stars will be darkened, the heavens will
part as ascroll and the great man, mighty men, free
men, bonded men shallcry to the rocks and mountains to
fall on them and hide them from the face of him that
sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb, but
the great David'swrathhas come.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: So thesesubjects are mysteries,
cause nobody really has areal thorough opinion to
reallyknow the realmeanings of thesethings. But in
Chapter 10, after the student of scripture is read and
become familiar with the symbols, in Chapter 10, after
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talking about an army of 200 million that overthrow the
world, it talksabout amighty angel comingdown from
heaven. And he has in his hand a little book and it's
opened and seven thunders are uttered, seven thunders.
And JohnAwastold thatwhen there's time.nolonger this
mystery of God, this revelation of JesusChrist, the
seven sealswill be finished, as God has declared to
his servants the prophets.
HENRY: Umfhum.
MR. KORESH: So in this 22nd chapter, after a
person takes the time to read these things, it's very
clear, the statement, Christ saysI Jesus have sent my
angel to testify to these things in the churches. I am
the root and the offspring of David. Now, Ancient
David was a great king, wasn'the?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: He's theone thattook his
little slingstone and slew the great giantGoliath.
HENRY: Right.
MR. KORESH:Yeah, okay. So what happened
was he saysbehold, I come quickly. My reward is with
me, to give it to every man according as his work shall
be.
HENRY: Um-hum. v
MR. KORESH= Now, when Christ comes, the
question is going to be what did the father give him
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25
that no other manin heavenwas worthyto receive? No
man was worthy. A book, right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: God gave him a book, a
revelation of himself that the father claims he's the
author of this book. And when the lamb comes, he's
going to bring this book and mankind is supposed to
find out that it is the Bible, the Bible which the
prophets of God having spoken by the spirit that God
gave them, having volumed atestament in regards to
those events that must be fulfilled in the latter days.
Now, in Revelation 13, John witnesses in regards to the
seventh seal, John sees a beast.
This beast has ahead like a lion, abody
like a leopard, feet of abear. In Daniel 7, Daniel
foretold that the empires of Babylon -- Persia, Greece
and Rome would be symbolized, Babylon as a lion, --
Persia as a bear, Greece as aleopard. And the ourth
beast, he said, would devour all the three beasts
before it and conquer the world. Now, that was Rome.
Daniel also says in the days of this kingdom they will
kill the prince of the covenant. They could change
God's times and God'slaws and place abomination to
make desolate false religion. We know the only true
religion is the religion of God.
HENRY: Um-hum.
times of
written i
them for t
commit my
word. By
And by his
you're no
taking pla
that day t
let thine
the Lord,
Nahum, it
for insta
has the ke
the Psalms
of the fut
law --
there's a
26
MB. KORESH:Now, Christ died during the
Rome and onthe cross. Very clearly, it's
nthe gospel records. He said father, forgive
hey know not what they do.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And then he said intothy hand I
spirit. And the hand of God has a book, the
the word of God, God made heaven and earth.
word, there was prophets. The events that
w witnessing are taking place. Now, what is
ce? Well, in the Book of Micah, it says in
hey shall gather together and they shall say
bedefiled that they know not the thoughts of
neither do they understand his counsel.
All of the prophets through theBook of
talks about Messiah, it talks about, well,
nce, to make it real simple, Christ says he
y of David in revelation. So inthe Book of
, for instance Psalms 2, David sees a vision
ure, of a confrontation between man and man's
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- and God and God's law.
HENRY: Um-hum. l"
MR. KORESH: Now, Revelation 13 tells us that
lamb-like beast that'll rise up, having two
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horns, andit'll speakas adragon. Now,we've gotto
identify what great empire arose up after Europe that's
a great empire that'slamb-like or Christian, but yet
doesn't reallytell the truth. Well, the only great
empire wéve known is the United States of America.
Now, back to Psalms 2, the psalm says why do the
heathen rage? You know, the heathen don't knowGod.
HENRY: Um-hum.
M. KORESH: They don'tknow his word.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And they get angry.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: It says, and the people imagine
vain things, for the leaders of the earth and the
rulers take counsel together against the Lord --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -and against his anointed.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH= That's Christ, you see?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Saying let us breakhis bands
asunder. Now, what arethe seven bands that Christ
promises to bring when he comes again? The seven
seals, right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: But Zachariah and the other
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prophets saythat the world will not regard these
messages of mercy. They have no interest in being
instructed by anyone but themselves. Now, they say let
us break his bands asunder, let us cast his cords away
from us.*But scripture says, which is taking place
right now, it says that he thatsits in the heavens ~-
That's thefather, you see?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: --shall laugh, for the Lord
shall have them, the heathen, in confusion. See, the
heathen don'tknow what they're doing. And this time
they can'tbe forgiven because this time they willfully
reject the subject which so plainly has been laid in
the Book of Revelation, asubject which everyone is to
be very familiarized with for the latter days.And
yet, they'reto understand by earnest study that these
things will remain amystery until Christ comes again.
HENRY: Um~hum.
MR. KORESH: To reveal these mysteries.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: So the heathen and their tactics
in dealing with aperson based upon rumors and based
upon their laws, they fail to understand that God also
has alaw and God also has a kingdom and God also has a
key. so what takesplace, it says, then shall the Lord
speak unto them in his wrath. That'swhathappens
C
I
92
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' 29
during the sixth seal.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: The sun andmoon and stars is
darkened, the heaven departs as a scroll, and the great
men of the earth cry to the rocks and mountains to hide
them from the face of the reality that they would not
know aforetime what Godsaid will be. So they end up
fulfilling prophecy, not knowing what side they're
doing. But to the wise, when God speaksin his wrath,
they already know of the events. And it says yet have
I set my king up on my holy hillof Zion.
So irrespective of what attitude the heathen
may take against the truth of the seven seals or the
man that is trying to teach the seven seals,
irrespective, God'skingdom, the stone, God himself is
going to intervene and he's goingto hit the image in
the feet and it'sall going to blow away, and Gods
going to take the jurisdiction and power from all the
great men of the earth and all that the prophets have
spoken is to be fulfilled.
HENRY: Um-hum.
QR. KORESH:Now, thepsalm continuesto sayI will declare the decree, the Lord has said unto me,
thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee. So we
know the anointed one is Christ, don't we?Christ is
the Son of God in Psalms 2, right? ' .
_ 21
30
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And it says the father says to
the son ask of me and I will give thee the heathen for
thine inheritance and the other most parts of the earth
for thy possession, for thou shalt dash the heathen to
pieces with arod of iron and shall break them as a
potters vessel.Now,that's pretty bad, isn'tit?HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: I mean,nobody wants tobe hurt,
do they?
HENRY: No, really.
MR. KORESH:So that'swhy inPsalms 2the
subject is clear, the mission of the lamb, the anointed
one, is to teach the seals, okay?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Now, the reason why the prophecy
is written is because it continues tosay now,
therefore, be wise, ye rulers of the world, be
instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the Lord
with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the son,
least he be angry, and ye perish in the way when is
wrath is kindled butalittle. Now, I'mnotmad at you
guys, you know.
HENRY: Well, and we'renot mad atyou,
either.
MR. KORESH: Well, but your show of arms is
92
O yQ
31
definitely bigger than myshow of arms. So inPsalms
18, the psalm hasmade very plain when it says I will
love the Lord for he is my rock and my salvation, my
buckler and the horn of my salvation. It says I will
call upon him so shall I be delivered from my enemies,
for they were too strong for me. And the day of my
calamity; and this is a calamity,really, they
prevented me. And then it goes on to talkabout a
terrible event that takes place afterwards, because,
you know, you all guys are too big for me.
_ You know, your laws are more numerous than
the TenCommandments, youknow, yourweapons arebigger, your forces are stronger.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: You know? But not really. You
see, not really. You know, Elijah in his day, the king
of Israel was having to face the Moabites and the
Hittites and they were outnumbered. But what Elijah
said wasthey that be with us are more thanthey that
be with them because unbeknown to the forces of the
heathen who were so boistering of their superior power
they did not see the invisible forces of God, the '
angels of God, you know, just like in the days of
ancient Hezekiah.
HENRY :Um-hum.
MR. KORESH= when the Assyrian armies came
wouldn't he?
92.
15
DAVID: Yeah. I can'tget down there to it
so. Yeah,that's what we'll do.
HENRY: Okay. And you know how everybody's
concerned about money. And I mean everybody is, has a
concern. Can you do me a favor, and can you make it,
you know, like in such a fashion that, that in order to
avoid their wanting to chop it up or to play part of it
or whatever --
DAVID:
air time?
HENRY
DAVID:
HENRY:
keep --
DAVID
HENRY:
there's --
DAVID:
HENRY-
How much, how much does it cost their
Well, that's the
Per minute?
That's the whole
How much does it
I don'thave any
whole thing.
thing. You know, so
cost?
idea. But
Give me the price and I'llpay it.
Oh, I don't have any idea. I have no
idea. But what I'd like to do is I would like for you
to make it as concise and asbrief as you can make it
so that we can be in a situation where your word will,
will get out. Nothing will be chopped off. Your
message will go out as you want it,you know.
DAVID: Well, like I say remember I'll even
16
buy the time. You know?
HENRY: Well, you know, we don'tneed --
DAVID: We will fund it.
HENRY: -- we don'tneed that. We -- what we
want iswe want you to - you were given your
cooperation, and that's whatwe promised what we would
do. So I want to live up to my part of it. Yeah, I
don't needyour money. But Ido need --
Touch tone sounds.!
_ DAVID: Hello? Hello?
HENRY: Jesus.
DAVID: Hello?
HENRY: Hello.
DAVID: Hello. What's goingon now?
HENRY: Who was that?
DAVID: Yeah. Unidentified voice in
background not discernible.!
HENRY: What -- you know, what I, what I
would like to see is I would like for you to, to
prepare yourself in such a fashion that you get your
message out and --
DAVID: Okay, wait a second.
HENRY: Now, I'ma little bit confused about
one thing. Okay? I, I know thatyou're, that you are
a man of your word number one. And number two, Iknow
that you know what you're talkingabout in terms of
17
theology. I'mnot as -- I'mnot nearly versed as you
are, okay? But one of the concerns that I have is I am
taking youto your word andthat is that you'regoing
to come out and that everybody is going to come out and
this thing is going to be resolved without anybody --
DAVID: Getting hurt.
HENRY: Getting hurt. That includes you.
DAVID: Except for what crimes we have to pay
for what we've committedthat is that. The world so
speaks.
HENRY:And that includes you. Am I correct
in assuming that --
DAVID: No, it's notan assumption. It's a
fact.
HENRY: Okay. Everybody's goingto come out,
and everybody'sgoing to be fine, and there'sgoing to
be no shooting, and there's goingto be nothing to, to
cause anybody to do anything to hurt you. I don'twant
anybody to hurt you. Am I, am I correct in my
assumption?
DAVID: You're correct on that.
HENRY: Okay.
t DAVID: So let's,let -- I got to start
editing thisand, and you got the van down therefor
the children, right?
HENRY: Yes.
DAVID:
coming then, all
HENRY:
what I'mgoing to
is going to stop
van. It's going
18
Okay. Be sure and tell them we're
right?
Okay. Now, now listen, listen to
tell you. I don'tknow if this van
inexactly the same place as the other
to be real close. The only reason
that I'mtelling you that is whoever's goingto take
the kids there, y
because we've had
DAVID:
towers --
HENRY :
DAVID :
HENRY:
be 20 feet back o
parked before. I
whoever it is tha
didn't parkinex
DAVID :
HENRY:
has happened befo
DAVID:
HENRY:
DAVID:
ready and --
HENRY:
ou know,these are two new people,
achanging of a shift, okay? So --
Okay. But just at the water
Right. Right.
-- like it was before.
But, but I mean, you know,they may
r, or 5feet forward from where they
don'twanther to get aconcern,
t's takingthem there well, it's,they
actly the same place. Nothings --
Okay.
-- going to happen other than what
re.
You got aradio communication, right?
Right.
Okay. Like I say, we'll getthe kids
Right.
l
19
DAVID: Are they down there now?
HENRY: Yes. Now what, what we'regoing to
need is I would like to try to start trying to find you
medical help.
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
fine.
No, not yet.
Okay.
Let's get the other done.
Yes, we'll get --no, I mean that's
And I understand that. And I'mnot saying, you
know, I'mgoing to send anybody in there. I want start
preparing to have somethingready for you after you do
your tape and all of that. Okay?
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
the kids.
HENRY
DAVID
up.
HENRY:
DAVID
Okie doke.
Okay.
Okay. Now I need to -- going to send
Okay.
He's goingto get the equipment set
Okay.
I'm goingto drink a little orange
juice, get my breathup a bit. When I, when I cough,
oh, man. I'll tell you. Anyway never mind.
HENRY: Howmuch time do you think you have?
DAVID: Well, see it's,it's likeI get, I
get renewed. "
4
I
92
fk
192
20
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: You know, and then, you know, the
pain and all of a sudden Iget where it'slike
something's developinginmy chest. It'slike -- I
don't know.It's, it'skind of like a -- it'snot a
cold it's --
HENRY: Like an infection?
DAVID: Idon't know if it's an infection or
not. It's just -- Idon'tknow. It's just a -- it's
kindof like you know how you feel when you feel like
you're fixing to get the flu?
HENRY: YES.
DAVID: Something like that.
HENRY: Well, are you sure you, are you
sure --
DAVID: You know, you go up and down.
HENRY: Are you sure you don'twant us to
send you some medical help?
DAVID: No, not yet. Let's, let's--
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: -- we're ona good road right now.
That's whatI've beentrying to --
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: -- that's whatIwas trying to work
with Jim all along.
HENRY: Okay.
O O
2 1
DAVID: You know, I was trying to get a trust
in him to see if he would, you know, really let me get
these kids out, you know, the way I wanted to get them
out.
* HENRY : Okay .
DAVID: And he's beenvery good to me:
HENRY: Okay. Well --
DAVID: And --
HENRY: -- we want to, we want to continue in
that same vein. We don't wantto change anything or,
or make anything insuch a fashion, you know. And when
you kept tellingme thatthere was somebodyin that
tower or in the roof, I knew thatthere wasn't anybody,
you know, because --
DAVID: We found out what it was. 92
HENRY: Okay. Well, we appreciate, you know,
we appreciate your trusting us. We continue to trust
you.
DAVID: Groaning. ! A
HENRY: We want to continue working in this
fashion. I would like, I would for, you know, [gap] I
would.like for you to start working on that, that tape,
and I will work withyou, and I want you to work with
me.
DAVID: Okie doke. Okay. Let me get off the
phone then. And the kids willbe downthere in just a
second, all right?
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Okie doke?
HENRY: Okay.
»DAVID: Okay, thanks.
HENRY: Um-hum.
[gap]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: --and I'm
iii-
getting ready for that.
Okay.Wait one moment. I'll give you to Steve
Henry.
[gap]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER Hello
iii
HENRY: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER Yeah
HENRY: This is Henry?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER This ls Henry
HENRY: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER Steve Steve
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY:
STEVE:
Hello?
Hi, Steve. Steve?
Yes.
This is Henry.
Oh, hi, Henry.
HENRY:
STEVE:
HENRY:
STEVE:
_ - HENRY:
bring up. David
23
How are you doing?
I'm onthe tired side. Little bit --
Oh, I guess so.
-- little bit slow tonight.
Okay. Couple of things I wanted to
mentioned that he was going to try to
do that audiotape. Is he working on that?
STEVE : You know what, I, I just about 2
minutes ago I was going to go lay down for afew
minutes, and I went past him and hewas almostsnoring.
He, he fell asleep.
HENRY :
STEVE :
HENRY :
STEVE :
mean I --
Oh, he did?
Yeah.
Okay.
So are you working on that? Or I
or I mean have you checked or found out
anything about it or --
HENRY :
to give us a, a tape. And hehad askedsomebody totry
Well, he said he was going to try to,
to go and get some equipment from --
STEVE:
HENRY:
STEVE:
Okay. Yeah, I, I see --
-- the recording studio.
I see something is here right now.
So that'sapparently what it's partof.
HENRY:Okay. Is, is he -- I really have a
concern becausehe was, you know, he was in, in great
24
pain and agony, you know, when I was talking to him
earlier.
STEVE: Uh-huh.
HENRY: And, but, you know, part of the
problem is like he said every time that he coughs or
laughs or something like that that he feels that he
starts bleeding again.
STEVE:He said that?
HENRY: Yes, he, hedid. And the problem is
if he is feeling --if there is internal bleeding, see,
when, whenthat coagulates, that's goingto cause him
some serious problems. It'sbeen a long time since,
since hesuffered that wound, and we need to try to get
him somemedical help.
STEVE: Well [gap] for, for what they're
telling me I guess -- hello?
HENRY: Yes [gap].
STEVE:[gap] Oh, something --I don't know
what's -what's happeningI wonder?
HENRY: Yeah.
STEVE: Is that at your end or --
HENRY: No, it's probablyat your end.
STEVE:Well, there's nobodyaround the, the
phone here. I don'tget it.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I'mlooking around here right now.
?
I
92
I
92
~
92
25
Okay. Itsounds actually better. I don'tknow what --
it kind of cleared up or something here.
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE: Okay. Okay, you were, you were
saying, yeah. Oh, I tell you what.I'm just so worn
out I'mhaving a hard time even talking here.
HENRY: Okay. Well, let me, let me say this.
The, the two - or the lady that brought the, the last
two kids indicated that their car is almost out of
gasoline.
STEVE:Oh, it is.
HENRY: So she said or she asked if we could
bring some gasoline on the next, you know, when we do
the next exchange. Can you get a couple of kids ready
so we can pick them up and --
STEVE: Yeah, let, let me find out then. I
guess I haven't beenwith it just too long here. I was
starting to lay down there and I was -- let me find out
what they'redoing, and I'll tryto do that, okay?
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE: Just aminute.
HENRY: Okay.
[gap]
STEVE: Just a minute.
[sap] ~
STEVE: Henry?
HENRY:
STEVE:
the tape thing o
HENRY:
we encountered s
STEVE
HENRY:
is most serious
STEVE
HENRY:
the same fashion
STEVE:
HENRY:
we're trying to
Christian Broadc
STEVE:
Network?
HENRY:
stations through
STEVE:
HENRY:
Arizona.
STEVE:
HENRY:
But when we call
§ O26
Yes.
So have you made progress with doing
I --
Yes. As a matter of fact, I mean we,
ome difficulty but, but -- .
Yeah.
Whatwe're trying to dois because he
about this --
Uh-huh.
-- we'retrying toreact in exactly
Yeah.
Andwhatwe'retrying towork out is
get him some time on the National
asting Network.
The National Christian Broadcasting
Yes, which has several thousand radio
out the country.
Okay.
Now thatis, is basedin Phoenix,
In Phoenix, Arizona.
But, you know, their headquarters.
ed out there, there'snobody there, so
we sent agents out to go to the people's houseand get
27
them out of bed or wherever they'reat--
STEVE: Uhhuh.
HENRY: -- so that we can initiate this.
STEVE: I see. So was he wanting to do that
yet tonight or -- Y
HENRY: Well, he wanted to -- he was going to
record the, the cassette for us.
STEVE: Uh-huh.
HENRY: And then he assured me.
STEVE: Yeah.
HENRY: And I told him I was going to hold
him to his word, buthe assured me not once but at
leastfour times -
STEVE: Uh-huh .
HENRY: -- that, thatonce we did that,
everybody was coming out. '
STEVE: I see. Could you becareful of the
cord there? I think that's maybewhat the problem is.
Someone was bumping into this - the cord in the phone
is bad.
HENRY: Oh, okay.
STEVE: Okay. Yeah. Careful. Careful
there. Hello? ~
HENRY: Yes.
STEVE: Okay. Okay. Let me see. And then
we're --right now, he's fallenasleep. I see they
O I
28
brought a couple of the things. Is there any way I
could leavehim maybesleep for 1 hour? V
HENRY: Okay. But, but I have a concern,
Steve. And the --
STEVE: Yeah.
HENRY: -- concern that I have, you know, is
that, you know, his health maybe deteriorating. Okay,so --
STEVE: There's,there's --right now there's
a nurse over here. And she says leave him sleep for
the moment -' I
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE: -- just to regain, regain at least a
little strength here.
HENRY: Okay. That's -- *
STEVE: And then she said she wants there
herself asking if, if they can'tdo something in that
area. She was just whispering over hereto me. Sb I,
I think between her and I we'regoing to ask them about
that, you know, getting that kind of attention or
something, or see if there's morethat could be done to
help out there.
HENRY: Okay. Okay. And we are ready to
provide that, but --
swsvs = Okay.
HENRY: -- we're going to have to take him
29
out of there.
STEVE: UhhUh.
HENRY: Okay? And I want you to be thinking
in terms because at some point the responsibility, you
know, for the entire group is probably going to shift
to your shoulders, Steve.
STEVE: I see.
HENRY: And, and, you know, I know there's an
awful lot of people there. A lot of children.
STEVE: Right.
HENRY: We want to between you and us,
between you and me, we need to try to coordinate this
sothat we can effect what --
STEVE: Right.
HENRY: -- David and I initiated and that is
everybody's coming out.
STEVE: Okay. Is there any way then -- can,
can you call me back in anhour?
»HENRY: Sure.
STEVE: Oh, that would be great. Because I
think what I'm goingto do is even lay down here, and
I'm goingto have somebody here wake me up then. Or
if, if the phone rings, I'm just going to make sure
that I hear it just so I don'tfall off too deeply in
sleepor something.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE:
HENRY :
30
Okay.
Now let me just ask you this. Can we
get acouple of kids so that we can go ahead and, and
give you the gasoline for that car that, that that lady
was asking about?
STEVE: Well, she said he never -- he passed
out before he gave the next couple that were to be
going. So I don'tknow what to really do right HOW .
Can, can we just wait for 1 hour?
HENRY:
STEVE:
Okay. Does --
And then, and call me and I'm going
to have them at least have, you know, a number of them
ready so that he can just say well, you know, these two
are going next then.
HENRY :
STEVE :
mean I'm, I'm so tired.
whole night. And I, I
laid down
HENRY:
STEVE:
HENRY :
STEVE :
HENRY :
STEVE :
there. I, I can
Okay.
Yeah. I'm-- oh, I tell you what. I
Last night I went through the
never got to sleep at all. I
You must be exhausted.
Oh, I am.
Okay.
Henry, thanks much.
Okay. I
I, I mean I know you'rereally trying
tell.And I really do appreciate it.
about an hour.
then
said
cord
with
HENRY:
STEVE:
HENRY:
l STEVE:
HENRY:
STEVE:
I'll mention
that, didn't
HENRY:
31
Umhum. O
So I'mgoing to conk out here for
And please call me back.
Okay. One other thing.
Okay.
Did you need a phone cord?
I -- yeah. When you call me back,
that again. I guess we -- I think he
he?
Yeah, but I'm not sure what kind of a
it is that he wants.
STEVE:
you.
HENRY:
things.
back
STEVE:
HENRY:
to you.
STEVE:
HENRY:
STEVE:
HENRY:
RACHEL:
HENRY:
RACHEL:
I'm not certain either to be honest
Okay. Okay. Well, check on those
Okay.
You know, in about an hour I'll be
Thank you much.
Thank you, Steve.
Okay. Yeah. Bye.
Bye-bye.
iii
Hello?
Hello?
Hello?
am I
you.
he's --
that's, t
talki
32
HENRY: This is Henry. Who's this?
RACHEL: Just a minute. Steve. Steve. Who
ng to?
HENRY:
RACHEL
This is Henry. Who'sthis.
: I'msorry. I couldn't understand
HENRY: Henry.
RACHEL: Henry.
HENRY: Who's this?
RACHEL: Oh, it's Rachel.
HENRY: Hi, Rachel. How you doing?
RACHEL: Okay.
HENRY: How'severybody doing in there?
RACHEL: I guess okay.
HENRY: How's David?
RACHEL: Well, helooks okay. Looks like
HENRY: He looks okay?
RACHEL: Lookslike he'ssleeping.
HENRY: Okay. Who is the nurse in there
hat's taking care of him?
RACHEL: which nurse is it?
HENRY: Yeah.
RACHEL: I don't know.
HENRY: Are you a nurse?
RACHEL: NO.
33
1 HENRY: Okay. Is there more than one nurse
2 in there?
3_ RACHEL: I think there's a few, but I don't
4know who, which one is which.
5; AHENRY: Uh-huh. Well, you know, we have a
A 6 concern. Andwe wantedto see if we could talk to her
7 so that --
8 RACHEL: Looks like she's wakingup.
9HENRY: Oh, okay.
10 RACHEL: Here.
11 [gap]
12 DAVID: This Harry?
13 HENRY: David?
14 DAVID: Yeah. Is this Harry?
15 HENRY: This is Henry.
16 DAVID: Henry. Oh -- sorry.
17 HENRY: How are you doing?
18 DAVID: Okay.
19 HENRY: Are you in pain?
20 DAVID: Gasping.! Oh, it's almosta funny
21 question. But, oh, wait a second. Let me look --
22 okay. All right. Are the children there yet?
23 HENRY: Yes, they are. You want to talk to
24 them?
25 DAVID: Yeah. See. Rachel? Could you,
could you get Larry? Is Larry asleep or --could you
34
get Rachel, Larry and --
RACHEL:
DAVID:
HENRY :
-- asleep.
Course, little Jamie can'ttalk so.
Um-hum. We want to confirm that
you're goingto be making that tape, okay?
DAVID:
rest --
HENRY:
DAVID:
HENRY:
Do you -- I don't
talk to you. But
Yeah. I was just trying to get some
Yeah.
-- to get my strength up.
Okay. Okay. I can understand that.
know if Steve had a chance to, to
you know, we're workingsomething
out. And because, because you are serious, very
serious about this, we wantto approach it from the
same, you know, with thatsame seriousness. Okay?
DAVID:
HENRY:
Oh, yeah.
And what we'd liketo do is we are
trying to not present this to somebody that's,that's
going to take it lightly but rather whomwe are trying
to contact as a matter of fact as we speak is the
National Christian Broadcasting Network. Okay?
DAVID:
HENRY:
DAVID:
All right.
Okay.
All right. Okay.Where's,
where's --which -- where is thatlocated at?
HENRY: They're basedout of Arizona. I
35
think it'sin, I think it's inPhoenix. And they
have --
DAVID:
locally?
A HENRY:
have several thou
country. But, yo
DAVID:
right now is KRLD
HENRY:
DAVID:
HENRY:
number one that's
DAVID:
HENRY:
.DAVID:
HENRY:
exposure.
DAVID:
HENRY:
that one of, one
you are very seri
arecalling you -
What's thesubsidiary station here
That I don'tknow. I know thatthey
sand radiostations throughout the
u know --
The station everybody's listening to
, right?
Yeah. But that's, that'slocal.
I know --
We're tryingto get you something
religious.
Exactly.
That's, that'sserious.
Exactly. I
Number two that has national
Okay.
Now the - you know, as you know,
of the concerns that I have is here
ous, okay. And some of these people
- I don'teven want to tell you what
they're callingyou. Okay? I mean it's somethingthatyou don't like.
DAVID:
Okay? So I thought it would be --
No, okay. I just -I got what
{92
you're saying just --
36
HENRY: Okay. So we want to have something
that, you know, that you're going
Because it's considered a serious
Okay? So we -- I
in Arizona, and we couldn't get a
to be pleased with.
religious network.
mean, we called this national network
hold of anybody. So
what we did is we called our FBI office in Phoenix, and
as we speak they're waking up the people that are in
charge of this.
DAVID:
HENRY:
sure that it is.
DAVID:
HENRY:
It's not a 24-hour radio
Well,I'm not sureabout
What, what --
Ishouldn't say I'msure
But, but the people that we were trying to
head people, weren't around. So --
DAVID:
HENRY:
the home. Okay?
DAVID:
HENRY:
Oh, Isee. Yeah.
station?
that.I'm
that it is.
contact, the
-- so they, they sent people out to
Right.
And when Iwas talking to Steve, he
was a little bit confused about whatyou wanted. So --
DAVID:
It's not going to
HENRY:
DAVID:
Okay. We'regoing to make this tape.
be a long one.
Okay.
And we'regoing to put something
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together very tangible, very simple, very even andp
begin to show the difference between the way I perceive
the seals and what, in, in difference to what we've
heard the seals being presented thus far by all so-
called teachers and religious leaders that have been
calling the radio stations.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: So that way people will be able to
honestly listenand readtheir Bibles asthey're
listening and see that Iknow what I'mtalking about.
HENRY: Exactly.
DAVID: And then they'll make a decision frdm
what they themselves have seen and heard from their own
Bible. And then like Isay, then I'min your hands.
HENRY: Okay. One of the concerns that I
have, okay, is I'mtalking to some people, some medical
people. And what --I don't likewhat I'mhearing.
And what I'm hearingis that,you know, remember when
we were talking earlier and you coughed, okay. You
told me that you thought that you might be bleeding.
If you -- "
DAVID: Yeah, when Icough Ibleed.
HENRY: Okay. Now do you, do you think that
you're bleedinginternally? Probably, right?
DAVID: Well, the hole is right here next to
the belly. And it, it hit me in the, the pelvic, and
then it somehow
towards my back
HENRY
DAVID:
the front.
traced around
There was a
Whispering.
-- that was
38
and went out kind of
hole in the back -
! My God.
bigger than the hole in
HENRY: Yeah. Well, see --
DAVID: And then the --
HENRY: What, what I'm,what I'mbeing told
is that when you'rehemorrhaging and then you'reblood
clots, okay, it creates a problem; because internally
somebody's goingto have to deal with it. You've
been --this is a long time ago thatthis occurred. We
need to try to move things along so thatyou can get
some medical assistance before you start having a lot
of difficulty, you know, and, and you start going into
shock or something like that.
DAVID: Well, I was in shock when I firstgot
hit I thought.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: But like I say when -- I'mgoing to
make this tape and, and I'mgoing to --when we send
the kids out to you I'mgoing to send that tape with
them. And you'll just have to -- this will play, this
will play tomorrow sometimes, right? -
HENRY: Well, we can play it whenever you
want. Ifyou want we can play it now. Or we can, we
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can go ~-
DAVID :Well - -
39
HENRY: -- you know, wecan play it tomorrow.
Tomorrow will befine. Now, you know, if you have a
problem,rif you have -- orif you're nothappy with the
National Christian Broadcasting Network, wecan goto
KRLD. I mean I don'thave any problems going with
whomever you want.
DAVID: Well, that's like Isay if it's a
national coverage then other stations will pick it up,
HENRY: Sure.
DAVID: And KRLD will probably more than92_
happy want to play it. Because they've, they'vebeen.
wonderingwhat's happened tome anyway.
HENRY: Okay. Well, I don'thave any
problems makingthema copy and giving them a copy or
whatever you'd like.
DAVID: Would you, would
correction for KRLD and then those
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Let's see. They
eightkids out. Let'ssee, wegot
you make a
things for me?
keep saying wehave
1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10,
12, 14, 16 children. And they need to, they need to
understand wegot 16 children out.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: And there's awholelot more as
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you'll findout. And your all'srecords werereally
wrong whenyou numberedthe amountof people here and
stuff. And, and, you know, I'dlike to hear thaton
the radio that there was 18of them gotten out so far.
That's Lahara,Renee, Angelica,Crystal, Camaray
phonetic sp.!, Landon, Jake,let's see,my eyesarekind of blurry.
SHERRY: Ryan.
DAVID: Ryan, yeah.
HENRY: Okay.Give me the names again.
DAVID: Letme, letme getthis--HENRY: Lahara.
DAVID: ~- closer to, to me. Just read it
off to me there, Sherry, wouldyou? The, the ones that
we've sentout so far. Okay. Unidentified voices in
background notdiscernible.! Okay, wait a second.
Slow down, all right? Okay. Lahara.
HENRY: Lahara.
DAVID: Okay. You already got that down?
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: Renee.
HENRY: Renee.
DAVID: Okay. Angelica.
HENRY: Angelica.
DAVID: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: Crystal.
.
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DAVID: Crystal.
HENRY: Crystal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
DAVID: Camaray.
HENRY: Camaray.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
DAVID: Landon.
HENRY: Landon.
DAVID: Yeah. The next one
HENRY: Jake. '
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
DAVID: Ryan.
HENRY: Brian.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
DAVID: Joshua.
HENRY: Joshua.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
DAVID: Jamie.
HENRY: Jamie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
DAVID: No. The other ones
Camaray.
Landon. ~
s Jake.
Ryan.
Joshua.
Jamie.
And --
-~ all the 0118 S
that are marked off. Unidentified female voice in
background not discernible.! Those others on the other
side
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: Oh, Janessa
DAVID:Okay. Janessa.
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HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
42
Janessa.
Patron.
Patron.
Yeah. Keep going. Unidentified
voices in background not discernible.! Let me see.
Let me seethat list.Groaning.! Okay. Oh. are you
saying these here are listedtwice?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah.
DAVID: No, they're not. No, these are the
first ones we sent out. That'swhy they wrote the
names over there
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: - we listed
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID:
So that's --
them indiscernible!.
un
No you didn't. There'sChrissy.
Chrissy.
Brian.
Brian.
Scott.
Scott.
Jake.
Jake.
And you already got Joshua and Jamie.
identified female voice in background
not discernible! -- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, -- okay, 6, 7,
8, 9-- all we'vebeen sayinganyway howmany--
HENRY: I, I think we only have 14. I think
1 you said 1
2
3 be correct
4~ list here
5I
6
7
6all right,
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1e get --
19
20
21
22
23 Let me get
24
25
4
43
6. but I think we have 14.
DAVID: Oh, boy. I tellyou. I mean, I may
ed onthem. But like Isay, I got a big long
and ~-
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: - we're markingthem off little by
; little and -- okay. All right. So groaning! --
then soI'm going to start --where's,
where's Gregand them? They still -- where'sSteve?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Sleeping.
DAVID: Ishe sleeping around the corner?
Oh, anyway. Here, here Larry.Here's -this guy will
let you talk to Josh.
LORRAINE: Hello?
HENRY: H6110?
LORRAINE: Hello? This is Joshua's mother.
HENRY: Oh, okay. Hold on a second. Let me
LORRAINE: Okay. Thank you.
HENRY: What'syour name?
LORRAINE: Lorraine. _
HENRY: Lorraine? Okay. Hold on, Lorraine.
the - Joshua. How are you doing?
LORRAINE: I'mdoing fine.Thank you.
HENRY: GOOd.
lsapl
.
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right?
44
HENRY:He's coming right up, Lorraine. Hold
second.
LORRAINE: Okay.
HENRY: Whispering.! Say hi.
JOSHUA: Hi.
LORRAINE: Hi, honey. You doing okay?
JOSHUA: Yeah.
LORRAINE: Okay. You be a good soldier, all
JOSHUA: Okay. _
LORRAINE: Okay. I love you, honey.
JOSHUA: Okay.
LORRAINE: Okay,sweetheart.
JOSHUA: Bye.
LORRAINE: Bye.Yeah, they'll feed you.
Unidentified male voice in background not
discernible.!
JOSHUA: What?
LORRAINE: Yeah, he knows that. He already
said they won't feedme no --yeah, you tell them no
okay?
pork, honey, right? Do you hear Mommy?
JOSHUA: Uh-huh.
LORRAINE:Okay,sweetheart. Be a good boy,
JOSHUA: Okay.
LORRAINE: Okay. I love you. Wait, hang on
Q
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45
a sec. Huh? Hey, are you seeing the rest of the kids?
Did you get to play with them?
JOSHUA: No.
LORRAINE: No?Oh, maybeyou will. What,
what about the other kids that left? You didn't see
them?
JOSHUA: Uh-uh.
LORRAINE: The ones that just left, no?
Okay. Well,maybe you'llsee them.Okay, yougoing totake the phone back,David? Okay, sweetheart. Put the
man back on, okay?
JOSHUA: Okay.
LORRAINE: I love you very much.
JOSHUA: Bye.
LORRAINE: Bye-bye, darling.
HENRY: Lorraine?
' LORRAINE: Yes?
HENRY: Oh, okay.
LORRAINE: Okay,I'm goingto put David backon, okay?
HENRY: That's fine.
LORRAINE: Okay. Thank you.-
HENRY: Thankyou. Unidentified female
voice in background notdiscernible.!
DAVID: Okay.All right, thanks.Okay.
HENRY: David,one of the things that we need
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to work out if, if we can is we have -- when we made
that last exchange the ladies that brought the, the
kids over said that their car was running out of
gasoline, and they wondered if we could get them somegasoline, Q
DAVID: Wait a second.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Said something about their car being
out of gasoline? Oh, it is? Unidentified voices in
background not discernible.! Oh that,that little car,
you know, itgoes a long ways just on a -- well,we --
she said --
HENRY: So what --
DAVID: -- that she talked to the girl, Mary.
But the thingof it is, is that-- how low is, how
close to empty is it? Unidentified female voice in
background not discernible.!
HENRY: David?
DAVID: Yes.
HENRY: What,what we'vedone is we've gotten
a, you know, 5, 5 gallonsworth of gasoline. We gota
gas tank full of --
DAVID =_ Oh.
HENRY: And when they, we make the next
exchangewe'll just fill it up. We'll,we'llpour the
5 gallons of gasoline in the car. Okay?
Q I
47
DAVID: Okay. All right. Thanks. I
appreciate that.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: I don't ~-well, it'stoo late toget
aphoneonow so.
HENRY: What?
DAVID: Oh, we -- see we have a lot of --
what wehadtodo is because I couldn'tmove andour
phone was,was waydown in a different part of the
building, we had to scrounge upall kinds of phone
cordsand piece themtogether tostretch them across
the building to, to get to where I am.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: So we could have aphone here.
HENRY: Oh, okay, so you need a--
DAVID: So I had asked, I had, you know, I
hadsentsome money toJim, andI'd askedhim, you
know, to,you know,take careof the kids with that.But --
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: -- I'd alsoasked himto if hecould
if he could justlikehave someone pickup, youknow,half,you know, nothingreal fancy, just a straightphone fromRadio Shackorsomethingwith approximately150 feet or soof, of telephonecable.
HENRY: Okay.Well, that's-- you know, I, I
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48
1 have a notehere to get, toget a telephone cord. I
2 didn't know what exactly that was.
3 DAVID: Yeah.
4HENRY: Okay. That'swhatyou need- You.
5: you needt-
6 DAVID: Yeah. Notthe, the kind that twist
7 around and around, you know, the, the straight stuff,
8 you know. I need a lot of it. And the longer pieces
9 we can get the better, because then we don'thave so
10 .many connections we have to make.
11 HENRY: Okay. Now you wantthat -- that's
12 like,like aninside cord, right?
13b DAVID: Yes, sir.14 HENRY: Okay. Let me work on that. I'll
15 probably get that as soon as, as --
16 DAVID: They've gotit at Radio Shack.
17 They'vegot like,you know, they even got like 50 feet
18 sections, you know.So --
19 HENRY: Okay. Let me ask you this. When I
20 spoke to Steve he was, he wasconcerned, youknow,
21 about your healthas weall are, okay?But he's --he
22 has aconcern about makingany decisions. Are you
23 trying to prepare him -- do youthinkit might be wise
24 to, to -- is somebody calling? Hello? 1
25 DAVID: Hello?
HENRY: Yeah. That is Steve -- are you
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working towards preparing Steve to takeover some of
the responsibility? Because I feel that you're getting
weaker, okay?And, andyou havea lot of
responsibility on your shoulders, okay?
A DAVID: Well, that's what I was telling Jim.
I was telling Jim, I said look, Jim, I teach my
students from the very first day that they meet me I
tell them, I say hey, look, do you want to learnthe
seals? And they don'teven know what that is at first,
most of them. So I tell them look, would you liketo
learnsomething about Jesus Christ --
End of tape.!
_ 32
into Judea, they kept saying to Hezekiah now do not
deceive your people, but have all of them come out to
me and we'll takeyou to a land likened to your own and
the landflow with milk and honey. Don't letHezekiah
deceive you saying thatyour God will deliver you.
Anyway, what happened was as Hezekiah had listened to
theProphet Isaiah, Hezekiahhad repentedhis sins,
asking God for forgiveness. And Hezekiah prayed to
God, saying Lord God of heaven, thou art theonly true
and living God and all thegods of the earth are idols
and they are no gods.
Now, we'vecome to the birth and there'sno
strength to bring forth, so please save us and deliver
us thatall the world may know that thereis a true and
living God is Israel. So what took place was, is that
that night the angelof the Lord wentforth and smote
185,000 of their warriors and they perished. You see,
weall know Christ is coming soon.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH=That gospel'sbeenpreached for
a long time, hasn't it?
HENRY: Um-hum. It certainly has.
MR. KORBSH=Yes. And everyone is supposed
to be likeChrist, aren't they?
HENRY: Right.
MR. KORESH: Okay. But the question is is
2
12
15
16
18
19
20
33
1 the world ready for the coming of Christ in glory?
V Well, God never said he would come in glory the second
time. The scriptures tell us, as the Gospel of Peter
tells us, look for the salvation that shall be brought
5 to you in the end of the world at the revelation of
6 Jesus Christ. We find in Hebrews Paul tries to explain
7 to the Christian church that we who are of the spirit
8 dwell in the heavenly sanctuary, a sanctuary where the
9 man of this world can nevercontaminate, theycannot
10 pollute it, they cannot contaminate it, because it
llrevolves around God who speaks through his word, the
sevenseals.
And, you know, like I say, unless we fear
God, unless we fear his word --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- you know, the appearance of
17 the thing, just like 2,000 yearsago, who really
believed that Christ was Messiah?
HENRY: That'sright.
92 MR. KORESH: You know?
21 HENRY: That's right.
M. KORESH: And why did he have to die? He
says father, I pleadeth that thy remove this cup from
me. But if it be not removed exceptI drink it, not my
25 will but they will be done. Taken from Psalm60, where
it says Lord, thou hasshown thy people hardthings.
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Well, the seven sealsare pretty hard things. Thou hasmade us todrink the wine of astonishment. Psalm 75,
Messiah is talking to the, tothe heathen and he says I
said to the fools do notfoolishly, and to the wicked
lift not up your horn on high, speak not with astiff
neck, for know that promotion comes neither from the
eastnor the west nor the south, by the north inOrion
-- past Orion in heaven in the northern part of the
universe, the father has exalted and promoted Christ
above all heaven, hasn't he?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Right? Okay. It says in Psalm
75 - We're havinga lot of babies crying around here
now.
HENRY: Are they okay?
MR. KORESH:I guess they're --Why are the
babies crying so much? Unidentified female voice in
background notdiscernible.! Yeah, can you give them
somebottle or some, some breastor something?
Unidentified female voice in background not
discernible.! Please? Yeah, she wantssome milk.
Okay.Anyway, sowe'restuckin acorner right now,myfriend.
HENRY: Howdo you feel right now?
MR. KORESH: Well ~-
HENRY: Physically?
35
MR. KORESH: In Psalms - I don't know, it's
like this. Christ says he has the key of David, right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
p MR. KORESH: Hecan open and no one can shut?
I HENRY: Um-hum.
M. KORESH: It's taken from the prophecy of
Isaiah 22, for God promises to overthrow the ungodly of
his land. He's goingto take away the power of the
ungodly and reestablish his kingdom.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: He says in that day I'll rise up
my servant -- Yeah, he says Eliakim, which means Godll
raise up Eliakim. It says on that day I'lllay upon
his shoulder the key of David and he shall open and
none shall shut, and he shall shut and none shall open.
And itsays they shall lay upon him all the glory of
his father's house. Now, unless you know who Eliakim
is, you won't knowwho his father is. But it says you
shall lay upon him the offspring and the issue.
But, you know what that is. That's children,
isn't it? Offspring?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Yeah. Well, that's whereyou
get the first seal at. The man on the white horse, the
first thing thatI try to teach people in Psalmsin the
first seal, you know, the man on the white horse is
a 1
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36
that you'vegot a bow, right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And he'salso got a crown,
right?
HENRY: Umhum.
M. KORESH: He goes forth conquering and to
conquer, right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH=Well, then what happens is you
find the truth of that in the 45th Psalm.
Unidentified male voice in background not
discernible.! They'reon the roof with ropes?
HENRY: What?
MR. KORESH:They're onthe roof with ropes
right now.
HENRY: N0
MR. KORESH:
HENRY: NO
No.
The guys are seeing them, right?
No, that'snot possible. That's
not possible. We made an agreement.
M. KORESH
ropes.
HENRY: NO
MR. KORESH
HENRY: We
Nobody can be there.
MR. KORESH:
No, they'reon the roof with
No. That's not possible.
They'reright up there.
made an agreement. They can't--
Make sure. Ask again.
Steve? Like I say, I feel so
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sorry for you guys. _
do --
HENRY: What we want, what we'rehoping to
MR. KORESH: I know what you want, but you
don't understand. Look at how much -Look, did Jim
Jones ever get this kind of slander? Look --
HENRY= We don't wantanybody -- We certainly
don't want you to be slandered.
the one
church
is bad.
temple
Spirit
you'll
isn't i
MR. KORESH: Listen, let me explain again.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: Okay, look, in Psalms 45, God's
speaking. And when you come up hither to my
-- See, it's thespirit and the world, the world
There is no temple on God, to be honest. The
of God must be in you and it must be in truth.
and in truth, okay? When you come up hither,
see God ona throne. That's what's written,
t? When you read things, you don't reallysee
it, you just see it in yourmind, don'tyou?
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: And our mind must be renewed
with the knowledge of God, correct?
HENRY: Um-hum. _
MR. KORESH: That's whyGod has chosen to use
scripture as a means for men to see his mind.
HENRY: Um-hum.
O *5
38
mi. xonssx-1=So in the 45:11Psalm,when you
come up hither and you can look atthe father
spiritually and you hear the 45th Psalm speak, it says
myheart -- See, the father givesme the book, right,
and opens the firstseal about the white horse?
HENRY: Um-hum. A
MR. KORESH: So then I show you Psalms45.
It saysmy heartis indicting agood manner. I speak
of things whichI have made touching my king. You know
who the father's kingis, don'tyou?It's Christ.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: It says mytongue is the pen of
aready writer.
HENRY: Uh-huh .
MR. KORESH: Now, how does God want to speak?
He wrote abook, didn't he? .
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:That'swhy his tongue isthe penof aready writer.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:He saysto the son, he says thou
are fairer than the children of men.So that's his
opinion isn't it?
HENRY: Yes.
MR. KORESH:Hesaysgrace is poured into thy
lips. Now, how are men required to be saved in the
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latter days?Who's goingto come?And what'she goingtoteach? The seven seals, right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
M. KORESH: And who gave him the seven seals
to teach? The father, right?
HENRY:Um- hum .
. MR. KORESH: And all that receive his
testimony will learn the prophets and all the books
pertaining to these seals and they'llreceive grace --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- unmerited favor for
salvation.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH= So, therefore, have God blessed
thee forever. But then itsays gird thy sword upon thy
thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
And in that majesty ride prosperously because of truth.
Now, what did he ride? What does the king ride? In
the first seal what does he ride?
HENRY: The white horse?
MR. KORESH: He rides the white horse.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: So they'reon the roof for sure
now, right?
HENRY: No, they are not on the roof. Nobody
iseven close. Listen, the agreements that we made,
40
David, theagreements thatJim madewith youall stand.We are not --
MR. KORESH= Well, why, why are people
jumping all around on the roof? y
HENRY: There is nobody on your roof. There
is nobody -- There is --
M. KORESH= Let's get back to the psalm
then, so you can get abetter picture of the way I
think, okay? So inPsalms 45, it says with thy glory
and majesty, ride prosperously because of truth. Now,
what is the truth-that the father gave himthat says
he's goingto ride prosperously? The seven seals,
right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Meekness and
righteousness, it says thy righthand shallteach thee
terrible things. Why? Because the father gave me this
book.
HENRY: Um-hum.
M. KORESH: The father gave me the book and
it talks terrible things,what'sgoingto happen totheheathen that resist, resist against the will of God,
the word of God.
HENRY: Um-hum. '
M. KORESH: Okay. Finally, itsays thy
arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies. I
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mean, youknow, whatarrows? Doeshe have a bow in the
first seal? He does,doesn't he?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Okay. whereby the people fall
under thee. This says thy throne O God is forever and
forever. The indiscernible! is aright scepter. Thylove isrighteousness and hate is wickedness.
Therefore, God,thy Godhave anointedyou with the oil
gladness above thy fellows. So is Christ the son of
God?
HENRY: Yes.
MR. KORESH: And he'sGod, isn'the?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:Okay. Now, it goes on to talk
about his marriage. It says upon my right hand is
standthe queen in gold of Ophir.
[9aP]
MR. KORESH: They're comingin on us.
HENRY: No,nobodyis there. I promise you
nobody is there. We --Every agreementthatwe made
before stands.
M. KORESH: Go up and see.
HENRY: Goaheadand send somebody,because
there's goingto benobodythere.There's goingto he
nobody there. I can promise youthat.Like, you know,
just like you, we'realso servants of the Lord. We're
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nct your enemies. We're not.
MR. KORESH: Well, if you -
End of Tape 10A.!
92 92
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
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TAPE #102
3/1/93
2
HENRY: And that's fine and I have no1'
problems with that.
M. KORESH:Okay. yHENRY: But I have a problem with you staying
there all day.
NR. KORESH:Well --
HENRY: And when I say I have aproblem, I
would like --
MR. KORESH; This iswhy, this is why you
agreed to play this tape, right?Because you really
have nointention ofplayingit, right?HENRY: No, no, no, no, no. That hasnothing
to do with anything. If I told you that I was goingto
do something, that's exactly what I'mgoingto do. You
know, I, I have no problems doing, you know, this and
whatever, you know --
MR. KORESH: I told these people to trust you
all.
' HENRY: And, you know, and likewise I've been
trusting you, okay?
MR. KORESH: Okay. Now, here's thedeal,
though. You know, you do understand the importance to
us for this -- what I have to say to be gotten out.
Now, we'renot terrorists. I mean, you're not-- And
we don'thave no hostages here.
' HENRY: I understand.
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MR. KORESH: I mean, the children, that's
kind of like ahostage cause, like I
young to make their decisions.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. xonssm And I don't,I
say, they're too
don't agree with
that, even if they're my own, see. So the thing of it
is is that, like I say, I've beenfaithfully sending
them out.Not just because I'm tryingto, to, to buy
time, but because I just don't want them involved in
this.
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: You know? And trying to, to
walk the middle of the road to make it as fair for us,
you know, and as fair for you. But, actually, on my
side, I'm going to make it fair for me first. Just
like your, your side, you're goingto
you first. So, you see, we both know
coming from on thatarea. You've got
you say, you know, we're sitting here
radio and everyone on the radio keeps
saying you all are going to stormus,
sent - You know, this is what they'resaying now. I'm
not saying that that's true.
HENRY: Okay.
make it fair for
where we're
me, okay? Like
listening to the
continually
you all sent, you
MR. KORESH: See? So you're being -- If
you're honestand you'rebeing dirty dealt with, just
,
4
like I have been dirty dealt with, you see? And it's a
different situation, but still it's thesame thing.
HENRY: Well -- A
MR. KORESH:They're sayingthat you'regoing
to do something and it's goingon national radio, state
radio at least, and people are out there listening and
you're notcorrecting it, you know. And they'resaying
well, the fog is a good cover and this is going to
happen and, and we'veseenthese many vehicles and
they're movingup and, and, you know -- Well, you're
not, you'renot getting on those boys saying now, wait
a minute, you know, we're notdoing that. No, they're,
they're incessantly tormenting us, you know, and
they're telling us what you guys are doing.
HENRY: Exactly.But oneof the things that
we've beendoing is we've beenignoring the press
because wedon't want the press to know what weare or
are not doing, you know, and that's whywehaven't said
anything one way or the other.
MR. KORESH: All right.
HENRY: That'swhy the press doesn'thave the
correct story, because we're just --
MR. KORESH: But the press --
HENRY: -- not talking to them.
M.KORESH: The press, you know, you all
pulled them back because, you know, they feel that when
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you all comein here and, and bang us all up and
everything that you don'twant them to get it on
footage.
_HENRY: But the press was saying last night
that we were storming the place at eight o'clock, andI
told you we weren't,andwehaven't.And even when you
thought that somebody wason the roof, I told you that
we were not.
MR. KORESH; Yeah, that's true.
HENRY: hndwe didn't.
MR. KORESH: And that'sin your favor, I
agree.
HENRY: Okay. So, you know, I would like for
you, you know, in order for me to, to, to be able to,
to sell all of this to my bosses, I need a little bit
of help from you. Now, whatI can do, or what I'd like
to do is let me talk to them in terms of selling this
to KRLD and maybe we can have KRLD then go national
during prime time. And if wedo that, will you agree
to come out at that time?
M. KORESH: When you'vedone the national.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KOREsH= You can do KRLD and I'llstill
send the children.
HENRY:Okay .
MR. KORESH: You know.
6
HENRY: All of them?
MR. KORESH: Not all of them yet. Like I
say, when you go national, then they'll all come, all
of us come.
HENRY: Okay.Let's do this.
MR. KORESH: That, that's the agreement we
originally made.
HENRY: Okay. And that's fine, but, but
let's considerdoing one, one thing. Supposing we do
this. When the - you send out the two kids to -~ with
the tape, give me two kids and two women. How about
that?
MR. KORESH: See,there we're --
HENRY: Well, I'm justsaying I'vegot to
sell this because --
MR. KORESH: Look, look, there's onething
that binds us all here together.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH= It's thetruth I'msending in
that tape. Now, these women, if they were to come out
to you right now, you know,knowing how so far we'veV
been dealt with - We've beendealt with straight
across the table, but there is some shadow there. You
know, they'renot going to trust you until you have
ultimately shown beyond a shadow of adoubt, you know,
that you have kept your full end of the bargain.
7
So, you know, it's, it's like, it's like --
What you'reasking me to do is you'reasking me to use
my influence --
HENRY: Um-hum.
iMR. KORESH: --
decision to deal with the
believed in, because you
we're believing in. The
to barter someone else's /
effects of
all fail to
what we have
understand what
Constitution -- Watch the
baby, please -- in, in written form,
many interpretations, constitutional
are to have religious --
course, it has quotas to
religion is and is not ac
HENRY: Um-hum.
freedom for
where we've
ceptable.
though there's
law says that we
religion. But, of
got to define what
MR. KORESH: Okay? Now, we do condone a
Bible religion, but then there comes in the aspect of
interpretation. So someone's interpretationcould be
wrong and therefore making their religion wrong. And
if that religion hurts others, if itconfines others or
binds others, then definitely we have to take a stand
and present it to the public so that the public, which
isour judicial system, realistically, can decide that
well, no, this is incorrect, and we have to, in means,
deal withthe person that'sgoing contrary to, to what
the person is saying the scripture says.
You know, peoplecan screw things up. And
8
that religion is a false religion, for sure.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Now, I agree with you on
all ofthese things, you know, and I love America, you
know. And you'll findin my past record that,you
know, I'mnot a bad person. In 1988, ifyou research
that so-called gun battle, you'll find out Iwent
plenty oftimes to the Sheriff's Departmentand asked
them to come out here anddeal with George Roden on
that corpse abuse thing. You know, ifyou research
that, you'llfind that out.
And when Iwas toldpoint-blank that Ihad to
get these pictures, and,as we were walking out Sheriff
Dixon says now, boys, be careful, you know, there are
some dangerous customers out there.
HENRY: Umhum. .
MR. KORESH: Now, that'swhen I had to stop
and think now, whatdoes he know thatI don't know?I
didn't knowDonny JoeHarvey or Orville Wells yet. I
didn't knowthat George was involved in coke and also
in methamphetamine. Ididn'tknow those things then.
HENRY: Um-hum.
M. KORESH: So, you know, why the system did
not --Well, like Isay, this is alot ofwater under a
bridge.
HENRY: Right.
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MR. KORESH: But it did make me look bad.
And thething ofit was was thatthe weaponsthat we
purchased, which you can look on all the yellow sheets,
atthat time everything wehad was with ayellow sheet.
a~HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Everything we bought was with a
yellow sheet. Everything. You'll find that those
things were bought locally and also infrom Palestine.
Therewere basic Rugers, you know, and stuff, which at
that time was considered, you know, a rodent gun, you
know.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Of course, weknow that the 5.56
is also amilitary, too. "
HENRY: Right.
MR. KORESH: But, anyway, the thing of itis
is that it gets blown out of proportion.
HENRY: Right. And I think one of the things
that we'retalking about and what we're tryingto
resolve here is, isthat everybody's either fears or
concerns about what might or might not happen. I, I
think that what your concern is, your main concern is
that wemight attack you, okay? And --
MR. KORESH: Well, if you attack us, it just
comes down tothis.
HENRY: Okay, but we'renot -- We have no
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intentions of doing that.
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MR. KORESH: I know, but it just comes down
to this, though. You end up killing us.
HENRY: Okay. And our concern is that,
that -- i
MR. KoP.sss= And
way you had it. You'll --
around us.
HENRY: Well, we
MR. KORESH: You
and this, that.
HENRY: No. Our
going to comeout and that
MR. KORESH: Oh,
suicide, I would havedone
explain something.
HENRY: Well ~-
I
then you'll have a story the
There's no, there's no media
don't --
llsay that we attacked you
concern is that you're not
you might commit suicide.
look, if I wanted to commit
it already. Now, let me
MR. KORESH= We were accused three timesthis
last year of going to commit suicide. Three times.
The authorities were roused up by letters from MARTBRO
phonetic sp.! and all that. Here we, here we've been
digging lakes inthe front, fixing this placeup from a
rat hill,hoping that one day we mighthave this place
finished, to be able to present ittrue to all those
who want to come.But at the same time, knowing that
as long asthere were people who would not look at the
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truth, we could not sit with idle expectation and think
that we'realways going tobe able to, to have this
freedom that we've enjoyed.
We've nevergone outside ourboundaries.
We've donethings thatare legal. You know, always
suspicion on every hand,you know, but the thing of it
is is that if there is anything inquestion, we need to
take it to the Bible. Christians are supposed to take
it to the law and the testimony of God's scripture.
Now, otherwise, we are commanded by scripture to abide
by the laws of the land in every degree, aslong as
those lawsdon't 100 percent conflict with the law of
God. _
In Nebuchadnezzar's day, when Nebuchadnezzar
had that dream, you know, Daniel and them weresubject
to the Babylonian kingdom, weren't they? They keptthe
laws of Chaldea, didn't they? But when it camefor
Nebuchadnezzar to makethat image and he commanded all
people to bow to it --i
HENRY: Um- um.h
MR. KORESH: --you know,indiscernible! we
will not be carefulinansweringthis to you, king,wedwill not bow down to your law which goes against our
God's law. Well, the acid test came. They threw those
boys in the fire, didn't they?
HENRY: Um-hum.
12
MR. KORESH: But who protected them? God
did. Now, we're in the fire now.
And, like I say, we believe that
nation and that it, like Assyria
hear theemessage of Jonah and it
say hey, you know, this, this --
Not a real fire.
America is agreat
or Nineva of old, can
can have a chance to
what this guy's
teaching out of the book is straight out of the Bible,
it's inharmony, it's perfect. Maybe there's beena
misunderstanding here.
HENRY: Well, what --If we can go back and
clarify our agreement so that you feel comfortable --
MR . KORESH: Right .
HENRY: -- and everybody feels comfortable.
And what it comes down tois real trust, you know, and
we need to --you need to have trust in us and we need
to have trust in you. Can you give me either all of
the children or two children and two women? And, you
know, andwe'll give what I said. I will give you the
KRLD and then going to national mediaright thereafter.
M. KORESH: Let me, let me talk about this
with, with some --~
HENRY: You know, if we don'tdo what we say
that we'regoing to do, the women will be able to give
testimony against us. Are we going to look good ~-
MR. KORESH: No, no. Come on.
HENRY: --in the eyes of everybody?
13
M. KORESH: Come on. '
HENRY: We will lookawful.
MR. KORESH: Look --
HENRY: We willlook awful.
AMR. KORESH: Oh, Henry --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- how many times has the
federal government --
HENRY: I have not - I have been straight
with you, with -- in everything that we'vetalked
about. I've been straight with you all the way.I
told you we would keep everybody away from, from the
place, and we have. You know, we offered you gasoline
when you didn't havegasoline.
MR. KORESI-I: I'm justthinking about all the
past cases of where the -- Like I say, we both know
what I'mtalking about.
HENRY: Whatever past cases I've had --
MR. KORESH: But this is our case, this is
our case. Me and you are talking and --
HENRY: Exactly. Exactly. This is you and
me -- ~
M. KORESH: Okay.
HENRY: -- and, and --
M. KORESH: So you'reworried about me
committing suicide. All right.
14
HENRY: We don't wantanybody committingsuicide. i
M.KORESH: Okay.
HENRY: And we want to get you out of there
as soon as possible because, you know, your blood
pressure isn't all that good. _You'renot, you know,
with all those blankets that you have on you, you
should be sweating a little bit, and you're not.y
MR. KORESH: Well, how cold is it in this
room?
HENRY: I understand that.
MR. KORESH: Low forties.
HENRY: I understand that, but your injury --
you've hadthat injury for some time now.You need
attention.
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
HENRY: Youknow, there for a while you said
your mind was going blank, you know.Periodically, I
feel that you~have a shortness of breath. Those are
not good signs. We need to get attention, medical
attention for you. So I don'twant this thing to drag
out and, and have your death on my hands. I don'twant
that. Give me a chance to help you. "
MR. KORESH: Well --
HENRY: Give me a chance to help everybody.
MR. KORESH: -- that's what we were working
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15
out. Now you're twistingup again.
HENRY: No, I'm not.
M. KORESH: You said that we would play this
thing on national.
'"HENRY: We will. And that's exact --
M. KORESH: And I told you --
HENRY: That's exactly what we're going to
do.
M. KORESH; And then we would, you know, all
come out.And I told you, I said well, look, I'llgo
ahead and I'll senda tape and I'llsend you out two
more children, and you said that's fine. And then you
said we'llplay iton KRLD and you didn'tsay anything
about we'll play it on, play iton KRLD and then we'll
send everybody out. You didn't saythat. And so, you
know, now you're saying something different. Now,
that's honest,Henry, that'shonestly what'shappening.
And then you'redoing the same thing that, that Jim's
doing.
You're sayingyourbosses, your bosses. I
mean, I mean,this isnot BurgerKing management here,
you know. You're thenegotiator, you're the one'sthat
got a lot of, a lot of power,don't you?
HENRY: Well, I don'thave as much, you know,
I don't have all the power. I stillhave bosses.
Okay, now, you're incharge there and it'squite easy
for you to make the
Now, I'vebeen real
real hard for a lot
and I will continue
bit of help from you
16
decision if you choose to do so.
straight with you and I'vepushed
of the things that you've wanted,
to do that. But I need a little
MR. KORESH: Okay, let me, like I said --
Finishing thistape
so --
is beingdragged out now, too,
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: -let me -- I'llhave to, I'll
have to get withthese, you know,especially some of
thesegirls and talk to them.
HENRY: Okay. Can I get two kids now?
MR. KORESH: Well, as soon as I get my tape
finished.
HENRY: How about now, whileyou're still
working on it?
MR. KORESH: Well, that's not what weagreed
OD.
HENRY: I'mnot, you know, I'm just asking
you if you will consider doing that.
MR. KORESH: See, you're making it
complicated cause, like I say, are we going to send
some mothers out with thesechildren? Now, that's
going to take some work on my part.
HENRY: Okay.
,-
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MR. KORESH:You know? And, like I say,
these people know the seals and they know that unless
this country observes and sees, then they know point-
blank what'sgoing to happen according to the
prophecies. That'swhy our main burden is holding out
here until we have an opportunity to state our cause.
You know, what did Nicodemus say? He says did our law
judge anymany beforethe hearing? We're talkingabout
the Jewish law, which is law of'God. Now,we know the
law of man does, but, you know, that'swhereme and
you, we kind of, kind of have a little friction,
because I wantto serve your laws where they coincide
with God's laws. '
And America does. Above all of the nations.
It does. You know, it's theclosest to God's laws,
basic principles of common sense, you know. But,
again, there are some laws inthe scriptures of truth
whichare the laws of prophecy, you know, and these
laws are great laws because they'readditional to the
Ten Commandment law, such as the law of forgive them
father, they don't knowwhat they do.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: See, now, that's a law.You
have to forgive people based ontheir ignorance.
V HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: Now, the next law, whichlet's
say the
forgive
we have
they're
18
Ten Commandments is Christ, right?
HENRY: Umhum.
MR..KORESH: So the 11th commandment is
them, okay? So every man that, thatdoes err,
to forgive him cause they don'tknow what
doing.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: S0 then the 12th law will be
into they hand I commit my spirit, which means, like
Isaiah 51 says, when God says hearken to me, you who
seek after righteousness, you who seek the Lord,look
to the rock indiscernible! You know, God is that rock
on that throne, isn't he?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And it says behold my people,
give ear to me, oh, my nation, for a law shall proceed
fromme and I willmake my judgment to rest for a light
to the people. And in that judgment, that law is
Christ coming, the seventh seal.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Now, that'swhy without you
knowing where these seven seals are in the Bible, you
know, you wouldn't knowhow to judge me.
respect
HENRY: Exactly.
MR. KORESH: Except by your law.And I
that. See, I'm willing to come out and be
19
observed and judged by your --
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: law.
HENRY: Okay.
A M.KORESH: But if you allow me to first
speak my law.
. HENRY: And I have no problems with allowing
you. Talk, talk to the people there, talk to the
women. I'll call you back in about 15 minutes and,and
you can let me know --
MR. KORESH: Okay.
HENRY: -- what the decision is. In the
meantime, you'realso going to be working on the
preamble and the tape.
MR. KORESH: Okay. What'sthe preamble?
HENRY: That's,that's whereyou're goingto
explain our agreement to the --
M.KORESH: Oh,okay, right. Okay.
HENRY: Okay?
MR. KORESH: Right. All right.
HENRY: Okay.So I'll call you back in a
littlebit.
MR. xonssr-1= Okay.
HENRY: Okay?
MR. KORESH: Okay.I'm going to have to do
some adjustment here now, so--
little bit
David?
20
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: Okay, I'll talkto you in a
HENRY
RITA:
HENRY:
RITA:
HENRY
RITA:
HENRY
RITA:
HENRY
RITA:
Okay. I'll talk to you. Bye-bye.
iii!-t I
Hello?
Hi.
Hi.
This is Henry.
Okay, Henry, you want to speak to
Yes. Who is this?
It's Rita again.
Thank you, Rita.
Okay.
MR. KORESH= Waita minute. Had this ear
plug again.
again.
the ear pl
HENRY: What?
M. KORESH: I said I had the ear plug in
0
HENRY: Oh, okay. ,
MR. KORESH: I keep putting the phone with
ug.
HENRY: Oh, okay.
M. KORESH: Okay, here's the deal.
HENRY: Okay.
21
MR. KORESH: I'm goingto make this tape.
Now, you know, some of these younger girls, you know,
they don'twantto go, you know, and I, I explained to
them, I said look, I says, you know, our main thing,
Sarah knowsanyway, and it's thetruth. You know, the
truth. You know?
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: And I explained tothem again,
cause, you know, they -- the girls have the different
rooms, and talked to them, but I explained to them, I
said, you know, our whole purpose isour message. We
have amessage and the world's ignorantof what we
believe inthe Bible, so they're ignorantabout what
we're doing.
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: So, I says,you know, I've
talked tothe guy and he's concernedthatwe're going
to, you know, same old story, we're goingto allzap
ourselves, you know. Why wouldn't wehave zapped
ourselves already, anyway, Henry? I mean, come on.
HENRY: You know --
M. KORESH: See, that'swhat they -- Anyway,
I'm sorry,I didn'tmean toget off the track.
HENRY: Okay. -
MR. KORESH: Here's thedeal. So some of
the, some of the older -- You know, we have quite a few
O 92 ' 22
olderladies here, too.
HENRY:Okay .
MR. KORESH: And I told them, I said, look, I
says, you know, you all, you know, you all -- Cause
they, they'vebeen quiteshocked, youknow. I told
him, I said, look,you all, you all are not really
involved in anything, you know,you all believe the
message and believethe truth. I says, but, remember,
that's themain thing, isthe truth is what we all
stand for.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: And I says you can probably also
help present to the people the truth.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And so, you know, I've, I've
been talking to them. I said, look, here'sthe deal,
you know, you can either witness for God here,and
probably don'twant to listen to us, orif you had a
chance to, to be onthe outside, you could witness to
him there.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. XORESH: You know, cause people are
going to want to knowwhy we'vedone these crazy
things. Now, next thing -- We didn'tgivethem abunch
of baloney. But I said, you know,you're the ones that
are supposed to be the victims. So, you know,if
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23
you're outthere, you can do a greater witness for God,
you know, being out there toshow them that you do want
to live, cause, you know, a dead Christian is a dead
Christian.
a HENRY: Right. ,
MR.KORESH: A live Christian is a witness.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR.KORESH: So, you know, and so I explained
to them, you know, if, if, if you all can, you know,
realize that -- See, the thing of it is we don't teach
that America has tobe punished. ~We teach that God
grants unto men an opportunity to seehis mistake in
the light of God'sword,and then repent of it.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR.KORESH: You know?And so that's the
wholething. So this, this is where me and Jim had a
good relationship on the phone, because, you know,I
began toexplain things to him. He, likeyou, is an
excellent listener and he began to realize that we're
not trying to be just radical idiots, you know, with
ragging our head off, you know,talking about
Armegeddon and stuff.
HENRY: Um-hum.
M.KORESH: Youknow,Armegeddon is -- the h
prophecies tell you is an end of time when God '
resurrects all the people that have ever lived and they
92
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attack the city of God. Ezekial talks about it. So,
you know, anyway, it'snot afew handsful of maniacs
trying to fight. That's not Armageddon at all.
HENRY: Okay.
* MR. KORESH: But,anyway, sothe thinc of it
is is that, you know, there's,there's, youknow,
there's threeof them here that are, you know, deciding
on, you know, whether, you know, they want to go or
DOC .
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: And so I'm talking to them a bit
more now, but -- So it appears tobe, like I say, I
told them what, what you promised todo for us, you
know, for us, which is for God, right?
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: Because you'redoing it for our
God.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH= You know, for our belief in God.
HENRY: Um-hum.
M. KORESH: And, and so, therefore, you
know, this is the whole reason for the truth, anyway,
is to, is to beable to have what we believe known.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: These people can decide better,
and then you can ask us questions if we're alive.
¢
25
HENRY: Right .
MR. KORESH: And if we're gone,then, you
know, no, no good. I agree with you guys, you know.
Two children, that's the, that's the main thing. And
two, two-of the women here.
HENRY: Okay. That sounds real good. I
really appreciate it.
MR. KORESH: Okay? Now, that's -- Now,
remember, they'redoing, they're doing this --
HHENRY: I understand.
MR. KORESH: -- simply because, you know --
Now, I'mtelling them point-blank you all may not, you
know, be 100 percent, but still their faith isin God.
So, you know, if you get them on the outside and all
that and don't doyour end of the bargain --
HENRY: No, we will. But, you know,that,
that'll start, that'll start the ball rolling and we'll
both reachour goals. Okay?
MR. KORESH: Okay. Well, I'll--
HENRY: Now --
MR. KORESH: I'll tell them that.
HENRY: Okay. Now, what Iwant to do is I _
want to, to get your tape as soon as Ican. One of the
things that we're considering, because a lot in terms
of radio, prime time is when the commute is on, okay?
MR. KORESH: The what now?
92 I
92
1»
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HENRY: whenthe commutersare driving to
work is when primetime is on radioland, okay? So
you're workingonthe tape and should have it for me
soon. Is that correct?
I M. KORESH: Well, if I,if I get a chance to
keep making it.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: But prime time, I thought, was
the time the people are driving home, whenthey get
home inthe evening.
HENRY: Well --
MR. KORESH: That's primetime.
HENRY: RadioI think is, is when everybody
is going to work, don't youthink? I mean, that'swhen
everybody really listens to the radio.
MR. KORESH: Well, that's, that's not
really-- Ask, ask the producersandthey'll tell you
opposite. But, anyway,likeI said, you'llbe playing
the Dallas one first, right?
HENRY: We'regoing to play Dallas and then.
we hope to go to national right away.
MR. KORESH: Okay.Now, 'causeI'msure,
like you say,the subject matter'llbe intense enough,
especially if radiostations could broadcast that it's
coming.
HENRY: Exactly.
f '92.
'-
92
,-
92.
Q
27
MR. KORESH: You know?And then that way,
you know, yeah, we could, like you said, and Arizona
will be from 11 to 1 orsomething, right?
HENRY: Um~hum. But --
l MR. KORESH: Okay, that's good.
HENRY: But wewant to go on this right away.
We'renot going to waittill 11 o'clock.
MR. KORESH: Oh, no, with the tape, the tape
needs to be given to youas early as possible.
HENRY: Yes. And as soon as wedo that,
we're goingto go national. We'llgo on KRLD and, and
then after that, we'llgo national.
M. KORESH: All right. And the national
willbe 11 o'clock,right?
HENRY: It'llbe as soon as, as - right
after KRLD playsit.
MR. KORESH: Well, howcan that be then? I
mean, howare you going to be able to get the tape to,
to Arizona?
HENRY:Well, we're-- Everybody, ora lot p
of, a lot of the national radio stations are here, you
know,in this general area.So we'regoing to find
somebody, you know,that's anational radio --
.MR. KORESH: Isee.$0 you're notgoing tobe playing it around 11 or 12 then?
HENRY: We'regoing to playit at 11 and 12
o'clock,too.But, you know, but, you
28
know --
MR. KORESH: Well, that's, that's whenwe're
coming out then, around 11 and 12, national time. Do
we have an agreement on that?
A HENRY: Well, you know, if that's --
MR. KORESH: That's whatyou
HENRY: Well,I to/ld--
told me before.
92
MR. KORESH: I asked you twice.
HENRY: Okay. And, and that's fine, I have
no problem. I, you know, I want to get you as soon as
I can to receive some medical attention.
M. KORESH: Yeah, I --
HENRY: Andthat's whyI've beenwanting to
get, you know,working from my end, pushing the bosses
hereto find me a way to get this into
national radiostation orwhatever, so
you some medical attention.
MR. KORESH: Okay. So, like
more than, I could more than last, I'm
o'clock. It'llbe our time, right?
HENRY: Okay. Okay,well --
prime time or
that I can get
I say, I could
sure, till 12 y
MR. KORESH:Like I say, that'swhenwe'll
come all out.
HENRY: Okay, well,that's fine.
MR. KORE$H= We're goingto,
to -- Like I say, once I get this tapewe're going
finished and,
92 v
29
like I said, I'mtrying to get it done now. I mean,I ..-
HENRY: Okay.
MR.KORESH: You know, I need to get it --
hurry upand get it done.
HENRY: Okay.
MR.KORESH= And, and I'm prettysure were
going to have two women for you and two children.
HENRY:Okay.
MR. KORESH: Okay?
HENRY: That's fine.
MR.KORESH: Are we, are we in tune?
HENRY: We're in tune.
M.KORESH: Okay, thanks, Henry.
HENRY: Thank you.
MR. KORESH: God bless you now. We'll talk
to you later, okay?
HENRY: Okay, I'll talk to you later.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Call me around --Well,
what time is it right now?
HENRY: It'sa little after six.
MR.KORESH: Already? Okay, give me a few
minutes here and then let me let this out, okay? -
HENRY: Okay. I'll call you back in a little
bit.
MR. KORESH: Okay, bye.
HENRY: Bye-bye .
End of Tape 10B.!
i
92 92
. 92
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURYBUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #1lA
03/02/93
2
DAVID: -- cut our lines off so I can't talk
to the radio programs. They're telling people that I'm
not communicating with them. And the reason being is
you all cut all our lines out
HENRY: Did, did -- was somebody working on
that?
DAVID: Well, Jim said so. But you know, we
know what'sgoing on.
HENRY: We want this thing to be resolved in
such a fashion that everybody
We don'twant anybody else to
one. Number two, if you have
would like for you to --
DAVID: Okay. Wait
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
the tower? What?
comes out of this fine.
get hurt. That's number
a message, we certainly
a second.
SPEAKER: Someone's in
DAVID: Someone'sin the -- they're,they're
coming in.
HENRY: No, they are not coming in. There is
nobody anywhere close.
DAVID: Okay, look.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
Hey, wait a minute.
SPEAKER: David was --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: David --
DAVID: What'she doing on the roof?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: What'she doingon the roof --
92
3
HENRY: Who's on the roof?
DAVID: Wait a minute. It may be one of our
guys.
HENRY: It's got to be.
" UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: -looks like
he's in -- it's one of the tower sentinels.
DAVID: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Oh, Shit.
HENRY: Itfs, it's got to be one of yours.
Because our people arenot moving in. Nobody is. The
only, the only reason we're goingto move in is --
DAVID:
HENRY:
DAVID:
Wait a minute.
~ is to pick up the kids.
Unidentified voice in background not
discernible.! What? Unidentified voice in background
not discernible.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Tell him --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: They were just
going to shoot --
DAVID:
Harry?
HENRY:
DAVID:
HENRY:
DAVID:
said Jim, listen.
Okay. I'msorry. What's your name,
Henry. Y
Henry, I'm sorry.
That's okay, David.
Okay. Now I asked, I asked Jim, I
If they'll let me present --I mean,
.-
~
0
92_
/'
92
;1
Q C
4
you know, this is our lives. You know, this depends on
how much you respect our lives. You know, if aman had
a-- let's sayI was before a firing squad. You would
give me at leastone last cigarette, wouldn't you?
»HENRY: Absolutely.
DAVID: Okay. If you would just allowme to
show one or two seals on radio, you know, get people --
I mean, I know it's asking alot from this system
today. You know everything costs money, air time and
all that. I'm, I'maware of that.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: And I've spent thousands of dollars,
you know. I've beentraveling and trying to get the
message out.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: If you'd justlet me present, you
know, the seals theway I see them.
HENRY: Uh-huh. _
DAVID: You know, then people would be able
to judgefor themselves.
HENRY: I'll tell you what --
DAVID: And then based upon that, we can
arrange something to where we all come out.
HENRY: Okay. I will work on exactly that.
And you telling me, David, I'mtrusting you. And I'm
puttingmyself totally in your hands that if I can
arrange to have
out. .
DAVID
5
you do that that everybody will come
:What I'm saying is is this. I'm
saying thatonce I'm ableto present thisif you
individuals,if you don'tcut me off and don't, you
know, don'tdo like what's beenhappening so far,
right, where everyone cuts me off. You know, hitting
me from the side with the questions that do not regard
the points I'mtryingto make then we'll come out.
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
I'm holding you
DAVID
HENRY
you talk to the
on, on have you
what. We will
:You're telling me--
: I'mtelling you --
:You aretelling me and you're -- and
to your word that --
= Is that --
:-- if I can make arrangements to have
radio and what I will do is I will work
talking to, to a radio -- I'll tell you
-- what I'll dois I'll try to work on
getting you something totally and completely different
from anything that you'vehad before insuch a fashion
that, that we can present this, and it will go out to a
lot of radio stations. How's that?Would you be
willing to make
' DAVID
a tape?
:A tape? It's better if I give it
live.I mean, you know, I don'tneedto make a tape.
Because, you know, like I say I'dliketo hearit.
6
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Make sure it's going, you know,
nationwide or whatever.
HENRY
outside?
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
I'm --
DAVID
that.
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
Okay. Could you come out and do that
I can't move.
We'll --
I can do it onthe phone --
-- we'll carry you out.
N0.
I'm saying if, if you want to do it.
No, see, there again we can'tdo
I'm, I'm-- I was just asking --
On, on --
-- if you wanted to do it that way.
If you don't,okay.
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY:
DAVID
HENRY
On the telephone.
On a telephone?
On the telephone.
Okay.
And you know --
Let me work on that.
Okay, then get back with me. Okay?
Okay.
f
92
I
92
/
92-
7
DAVID: Because I indiscernible! I'm losing
by --
HENRY: Okay. Let me just ask you something.
We were working on getting some more kids out. Are you
ready togsend acouple more kids out?
DAVID: Well, let's, let's work on this now.
And because this avenue like I told Jim, I said Jim,
you know, because he'ssupposed to be still working
with me. I --what did he do now?
HENRY: Well, he's, youknow, he'sbeen
forever. We'regoing to have to give him alittle bit
of abreak. You understand that?
DAVID: Yeah.
HENRY: Okay. And I'll -and I promise to
work with you in the same fashion that he has. Now let
me, let me just propose acouple of things to you. You
consider them,okay?
DAVID: Okay.
HENRY: One of the things that I want to
propose is if we makeatape recording, one of the
things that we ensure is that nobody is going to
interrupt you with crazy questions or comments or
anything like that.
DAVID: Okay. What we'lldo then is we'll,
we'll --maybe we can make atape and avideo. And
then maybe you can play that.
8
HENRY: Now do you have, do you havea video?
DAVID: Yes, we have high eight.
HENRY: Okay. Well, why don't you start
working on that, and I will start working on it from
this end:
DAVID: Okay. All right, then we'lldo
something.
HENRY:Okay. Now I'mgoing to a little ~-
DAVID: That way at leastyou'll know where
I'm coming from.
HENRY: I'mgoing to need alittle bit of
time so that I can, so that I can work on this. In the
meantime, can we get --
DAVID: Okay.
HENRY: --some more children out or do
you -~ a
DAVID: Let's just hold off until we get this
spot figured out, all right?
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Ineed, I need some --see, I gave, I
gave Jim somemoney, right? H
HENRY: Yes. We have the money here.
DAVID: And he was going to pick me up a
phone, because our phone'sreally pretty bad. A lot of
people use them and we needed, we needed a better line.
Okay? Because you know we're -I mean well, I can't
F
92
,
move, so we're long extension.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: And so if we can get a new line and
phone from, you know, like I said I was going to pay
for it. I
HENRY: Okay.
- DAVID: Then we'dhave better reception.
HENRY: Okay. But do this for me, because
need to have these people, these bosses, you know,
they're alwaysreal pushy. You understand that?
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID:
HENRY:
I realize --
Okay.
-you got a lot of chiefs there.
Right. Send me two more kidswhile
we're workingon this so that they can, you know --
DAVID: I'll dothat.
HENRY: Okay. Okay.
DAVID: Okay?
HENRY: So what I'lldois whenever you -
DAVID: I'mglad you have a concern for the
children like I do because I have --
HENRY: Yes. Okay. What we will do is I
will start working on this, okay.And it's either
going to be avideo and the audio, or at least we're
going to get radio. But I'llget you something. Or
I'llgo to work on getting you something. Okay?
10
DAVID: Yeah. Let's, let's-- likeI say
you'll, then you'll know, understand where I'm coming
from.
HENRY: Okay. But I want you to understand,
okay, I'mgoing to hold you this. You're tellingme
that --
DAVID: I --
HENRY: -- that you're going to send
everybody out. I'm goingto want everybody out.
DAVID: Okay.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Do what you can though.
HENRY: Okay. But send me a couple of kids.
I'mgoingto send a car to pick up the two kids.
DAVID: You got the van there now?
.HENRY: I'll send it, I'll send the van out.
Can we get the van over there?
DAVID: Yeah, well, giveme a call or --
HENRY: Okay. The van is goingthere right
now.
DAVID: Okay.
HENRY: And in the meantime, I'll work on
this and I'll call you back ina little bit.
DAVID: Okay. Thanks. -
HENRY: Thank you, David.
DAVID: Bye.
11
HENRY: Bye~bye.
[gap]
iii
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Blew the
transmission.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Oh, good.
[sap]
STEVE
HENRYSTEVE
HENRYsrzvs DAVID
HENRY
DAVIDHENRYDAVID
HENRY:
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY:
DAVID:
HENRY:
DAVID:
iii
Hello?
Hello, David?
This is Steve. Is this Henry?
Yes,Steve.
Henry -- do you want to talk here?
Okay. You ready?
The car is ready topick up the kids
Okay.
Do you have the kids ready?
Yeah.
Okay.
Why don't--screaming in pain! --
Are you okay?Are you okay?
Oh, God. I'm back.
Are you okay?
I'm bleeding again.
Geez.
I coughed. Wait a minute.
Groaning.
the back.
starts it
you be int
have to be
they --
guess he's
Joshy?
Joshua's 7
12
!Oh, boy. Itgot me by surprise. '
HENRY: Um
DAVID:
And whe
Got the one hole in the front, one in
n I -- if I laugh or if I cough it
up again.
HENRY
DAVID u0
HENRY
DAVID:
HENRY:
erested
DAVID:
HENRY:
DAVID:
-- you
HENRY:
DAVID:
oh, man.
about -
Sure.
Groaning.! Boy. Okay.
which kids are you going --
When -- okay --
-- are you going to send down? Would
in sending out --
Jamie. His name's Jamieand Joshua.
Who's, who-- how old are they?
Well, Jamie'san invalid. So you
got aspecial chair and all that.
Okay.
The social workers here in town
They know him. And Joshua, he's, I
- how o1d's Joshuanow,6? How o1d's
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Seven.
DAVID: He's turned 6.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Joshua's7.
DAVID:
HENRY:
Oh, he's7 now? Okay. He's7.
And Jamie?
DAVID: And Jamie he's --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Nine.
DAVID:
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID = Okay?
HENRY: Are they your kids?
DAVID: No.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID:
paper with them,
to kin and, and all that stuff, okay?
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Groaning.!
HENRY: I presented, I presented the
And, and sofar it'slooking,you know, pretty
But we, we have a bitof aproblem in terms of
time. Can you make a-- do you have something
could work
you have arecorder?
13
Nine.
He's 9but he's like 3, you know, 4.
Okay. We'll send a little, little
youknow, that tells you their closest
idea.
good.
the
that you
with sothat you canmake an audiotape? Do
DAVID: Yeah, but I justcan't get toit.
And it's, it'ssophisticated.
HENRY: They can't bring it over to you?
DAVID: We can't, wecan'tdo a little video?
HENRY: Well, see,what we'rehoping to do
and, and because this is a serious situation, okay.
DAVID: Yeah, it's very serious.
HENRY :
92
14
we're hoping to, to get this to a
serious Christian broadcasting network type national,
you know, broadcasting network that would, that would
give us maybe, you know, nationwide coverage on this
thing.
DAVID:
HENRY:
Uh-huh.
And if we talk in terms of avideo,
by the time we get it from here to, to --
DAVID:
to --
HENRY:
DAVID:
millimeter, 30, 33, 35 millimeter. Anyway,
HENRY:
DAVID:
HENRY:
if we could --
DAVID:
know where ~- do
studio and bring
To have it edited, transferred over
Yeah.
--to 10 -- is it 10 - I forgot what
yeah.
Um~hum. Umhum.
I know what you'resaying.
could,So if, if -- do you -- if we
Steve, how many,how many -- do you
you think we could break down the
some,you know,take out of the rack
and bring someindiscernible! and stuffrecorder in.
Because we need to do an unedited, high fidelity tape.
Okay.
STEVE:
DKVID:
STEVE:
Get Greg.
Okay.
Greg would know how to do it,
AU.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURYBUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #112 -HENRY GARCIA
03/02/93
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC.Court Reporting Depositions
D.C. Area 01! 261-1902Balt. & Annap. 10! 974-0947
RIT?92:
HENRY:
RITA:
HENRY:
»DAVID:
HENRY:
DAVID
it's --
HENRY:
DAVID
it done. It's,
HENRY:
really -- I don
DAVID:
HENRY:
DAVID:
2
Hello?
Rita?
Just a minute, please.
Hello?
Hello?
How are you doing?
I'm, I'mtrying to finish up. I mean
You making progress?
Oh, yeah. I'm trying,trying to get
it's raining outside, isn't it?
Well, I'minside of aroom. I can't
t have awindow.
Well, that's,that's heavyrain.
Is that right?
Yeah. Okay, yeah. Let me finish
this up, and I'llget right with you. Call me in about
another 15 minutes, okay? We should -
HENRY:
DAVID
HENRY:
DAVID:
HENRY:
for the rest of
About --
--be finished.
In about I5 minutes?
Right.
Okay. You -and we'restillon-line
the stuff. That is I mean we still
have the two womenand, and two, and two kids that
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC.Court Reporting Depositions
D.C. Area 01!261-1902Balt. &Annap. 10! 974-0947
C _ will --
DAVID
it.
:Right. Yeah, they said they'll do
HENRY: Okay. Okay.
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
match.
DAVID: Okie doke?
Okay.
Okay. Let me get back on this then.
Okay. Very good.
Oh, boy. I feel like I did a boxing
HENRY: Okay. Now try to keep it short
because, youknow, the, these peopleare not going to
want to play something that's reallong, okay?
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
be?
HENRY
Okie doke.
Okay.
I mean how long do they want it to
Well,you know, remember the, the
thing that you did for Jim before?
DAVID
HENRY
you --
DAVID
HENRY
short. But you
How long was that?
About half apage or so. You know,
Oh, that?
You, you don't haveto make it that
know --
FREE STATEREPORTING, INC.Court Reporting Depositions
D.C. Area 01! 261-1902Balt. & Annap. 10! 974-0947
DAVID
HENRY:
hour or something
DAVID
least wanted to
HENRY:
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID:
HENRY:
All right.
But, but don't make it like a half
like that.
Like I said, I have to make it-- at
make the point, okay?
Okay.
Okay, thanks.
Okay.
Okay, bye.
I'lltalkto you later. Bye.
iii
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Is that all
right?
RECORDED MESSAGE:We're sorry. Your call
did not go through. Will you please hang up and try
your call again
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #1: Okay, now. I
mean I'll check on --
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #2: Are they, are
they in --
iii
DAVID: Hello?
HENRY: Hello, David?
DAVID: Yeah.
HENRY: How are you doing?
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC.Court Reporting Depositions
D.C.Area 01! 261-1902
Balt. & Annap. 10! 974-0947
!
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID:
HENRY:
DAVID
We -- it's there. '
Okay. Is the tape done?
Yeah.
Okay.
Is the -- have they left yet? Have
they left yet? Unidentified voice in background not
discernible.! Wait one second. Have they left yet?
is?
know --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes.
DAVID
HENRY:
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY:
DAVID
HENRY:
DAVID
Okay. You got them yet down there?
No.
Well, they, they should be there.
Who has the tape?
The older lady,Katherine.
Do you know about how long the tape
It's almostan hour.
An hour?
Almost.
You know, you realize that, you
Well, that's, that's -- I made it a
simple and direct as possible. I couldn't getaway
with any less than that.
"Niall --
HENRY: You realize that I may not be able, I
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DAVID: I'll pay them.
HENRY: I, I--
DAVID: How much do they want?
HENRY: I, I--
- DAVID: I'll pay for the time.
HENRY: I understand what you're saying.I
don't havecontrol over that. What I,what I'll dois
I'll dothe best that I can. But I want you to
understand thatif it comes outchopped up,it hasnothing to do with me. You know we're,we --
DAVID: Well, have, have -look. It's --
HENRY: I'll,I'll workon it. You know, and
I'll workvery hard for you. Youknow that. Because I
want, I want to resolve this as just as much as you do.
DAVID: Yeah. This --
HENRY: Youknow that.
DAVID: This tape, like I say, if it's
played, you know, everything, everything's goingto be
all right, you know. Because it'slike I say it's,it
introduces so perfectly, you know, what the whole, how
the whole story got started. And I'll --
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: It, it tells the whole story.
HENRY: Okay. Now do --
DAVID: SO --
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