-'O

l l l l K1 AKI MilKI- sticcl-. ii.uni il .itlei Nelson M.inilela ilt.m• l i n o n e c|-.e III ll l f W i l l 111. 11 | C Mill ) '

" I1 icc Kelson Mandela” bv A K A u.is top ii| the pops in Itrilain; Nicvic Wotuicr adapted one til Ins si.Ilf.', to sill,; to the I Imled Nations

"Mandela. we just called t«is;iv we line you".dcini>cialic governments in.I even Intcinalional llankcis h.ive loined the call of. South Africa's people lot Mandela and his co-accuscd lo Ik* released

1*i>I business, the TIT. Church leaders and a small hand of Afri­kaans students have been queuing up at the ANC*s door in Lusaka. And with his Cape Times interview, Oliver Tambo showed that if the press laws gave him half a chance, his views would certainly Ik- food for thought for South Africans.

Hut while the AN C continues to engage in high-level diplomatic talks, it has made it quite clear that its political and military offensives will also intensify.

Mandela and Umkhonto

Mandela has bccoinc a symbol yf the A N C . He and his co-uccuscd were imprisoned for spear-hcading th e , fomuition of Umkhonto we Sizwe, ^initiating the sabotage strategy, and" promoting A N C underground structures. . .

:!a «£l » brisk political pace

' o f the A N C ;

the AN< to :nlii|i| .1 , pin,.I . i n l i n e .il .ii l i n n , w I m Ii i n i l i i i l n l

I he I >rli.inre ( ‘.iiiip.uguAs AN( 'inenilieisliip p e w toovei

KKI (HK) people by 1*>M. Mandela stalled aiguin,: that the A N C uiu-.t

prepare lor a time when it would I ', pievented from mobilising', m. upeiily; that • sli unities mil l l*e

built lliat did not rely so heavily "ii bringing alHnil mass action (lit.-itf.h public mass inccliugs. pic-.s ,i.ne- inents and pauiphlcts

The M-PlanMandela p i o , n lc M-l’lan in

the IV.Stls. this xv.is a system of cells, based on membership in a single street, and headed by a cell

steward. Seven street cclls would make a /one. and the chicf Mcwaid o f cacll /one would nu-ct with lour others lo make a waul. ( >ne person from each ward would make up the A N C branch secretariat to adminis­ter the ANC in a township.

To sct up this network involved a huge amount of organisational work. In 1955 an N LC report said. "The National liberation move- nicnt has not yet succccdcd in the organisational field in moving out of the domain of mass meetings and this type o f agitation. Mass gather­ings and large public activities arc important, but so is house to house work, the building of small local brandies, dose contact with mem­bers, and their continual educa­tion ." . .

When ih.- A N ( ' was Im.illy I..., , .1 111IIII I ,•(tm ill| by ||,,. banning

Iln- Stale ol I n ic ige iuy in l*>(.l),

Mandela motivated the turn to

a im ed sliugglc.

Speech from the dock

In Ins Inal, he explains some ol the laclois lliat led him alone, this path:

I he whole life ol any thinking

African m this country iliives con linuously to a couflicl lietwcen his conscience on the one baud and the law on the other.. The law as it is wiitten and designed by the Nationalist < ■overnmenl is a law

which, in our view, is immoral, unjust, and intolerable.

Our consciences dictate lliat we must protest against it. that we must oppose il and that we must attempt to alter il.

Mandela went on lo warn of iln- dangers of government violence io uphold unjust laws: “fiovcrnmcnt violence can do only one thing and that is lo breed countcr violence.

We have warned icpenti .fly that the (iovcniuicnl, by n soiling lo violence, will breed in ihts country countcr-violeuce amongst the people, until ultimately, if thru- .. no dawning of sanity on the pan ol the Government, ultimately the dtspulc between the Govcrnmenl and my people will finish up I-cm,: settled in violence and force.

" A h e .n lv llu -n - .in - indications lli.il .-M in .in |.co|ilt* .in - tu n u m : lo d c liK -i.ilc .u ts ol violence anil ol lorcc against the ( io v c iiiiiic n t. in o iilc r to |H-isuadc the < •ovcinm cnt, in I he only language w hich it shows, by its ow n Ih Ii .iv io ii i . that it unde r­stands."

The next time that M andela was able lo pul Ins views on violence to South A frica ns, was .’D y c a is la tc i. w hen I’W o llc ic d M andela condi- tioual icleasc il he tcno unccd vio lence.

No to release offerlluT’.iltcr 2(1 years of prison, Man­

dela icfused his own freedom

rather than compromise his beliefs, lie showed this inner strength before when he was allegedly ollercd conditional release to the Transkci. I le rejected it because he refused to recognise the Transkci.Mandela laid the blame for vio­

lence in South Africa firmly at the govcrnmcnls's door, and called on Botha to renounce violence.

"I am surpiiscd at the conditions the government wants lo impose on inc. I am not a violent m an," Man­dela said. “ It wns only when all other forms i*f resistance were no longer open to us. that wc turned to armed struggle.”

'"I oo many hove died since I went to prison. Too many have suffered for their love of freedom. I owe it to

then widows, lo then o ip liii iv lo (lieu tuolhcis.m il l.itlicis win. Ii.nc gtieved .uni wept loi them.

"Not onlv 1 have suffered .luiin,' these long, lonely, wasted w-.iis I am not less htc-loving than you ate Hut I cannot sell my birlhriglit. iio i am I prepared to sell the birthiighl ol the people to be free.” Mandela said.

“ I cannot and will not give any undertaking at a lime when I and you the people are not free. Your freedom and mine cannot be sepcr- ated. I W IL L return.”

If Mandela were released tomor­row. he might find conditions sadlv unchanged Irom what he left behind so long ago. But while con­ditions might be the same, the balance of forccs has changed to a point where the A N C believes the struggle has entered a new era.

Mandela would find an apartheid government isolated internation­ally. facing an economic crisis beyond its control; losing its grip politically as the townships become ungovernable, and faccd with the threat of alternative “mass revolutionary bases” being built in the townships.

He would find the A N C confident of its future after its recent Consul­tative Conference, and on a wave of international credibility. And if support for the call for his release is anything to go by, the A N C has still has mass support inside the coun­try.? •

JOHANNESBURG

REGIONAL COURT

CASE R/C M / 3 1 8 7 / 8 3

DATE: 22/9/83

IN THE REGIONAL COURT FOR THE REGIONAL DIVISION

OF SOUTHERN TRANSVAAL HELD AT JOHANNESBURG

BEFORE : 'MR I J LUTHER

THE STATE VERSUS : M A R Y B E R N A R D

CHARGE: (SEE CHARGE SHEET)

PLEA: NOT GUILTY

FOR IKE STATE: MR G THJART

FOR THE DEFENCE: ADV D A KUNY AND W PRINSLOO

INTERPRETER: MR W FIGLAN

TRANSCRIBER: MRS C M KOTZE

MESSRS LUBBE RECORDINGS

JOHANNESBURG

JOHANNESBURG

REGIONAL COURT

CASE NO 61/3187/83

DATE: 22/9/83

THE STATE VERSUS : M A R Y B E R N A R D

CHARGE: (SEE CHARGE SHEET)

(PROSECUTOR PUTS THE CHARGES TO THE ACCUSED)

PLEA: NOT GUILTY (Co all charges)

MR D A K U N Y : May it please Your Worship, I appear in

this matter together with my learned friend Mr Prinsloo

on behalf of the accused- The pleas entered by the

accused are in accordance with our instructions and I 10

propose to read out a statement made by the accused in

terms of Section 115 of the Act, Act 51/1977, unfortu­

nately sir we have not had this typed, it can be typed

in the course of the proceedings, but at the moment may

I read it out and hand it to Your Worship?

The accused has signed this statement ? - (MR KUNY READS

STATEMENT MADE BY ACCUSED EXH A)

BY THE COURT: Accused will you confirm the contents of

this statement?

ACCUSED: Yes, I do. 20

P ROSECUTOR: Your Worship, I intend handing in a statement

or rather a statement that contains questions and answers

to the accused it has been admitted by my learned friend.

I wonder whether there is any objection of me reading

our the statement *nd handing it in as an exhibit?

BY THE C O U R T : Do you have an objection Mr Kuny?

MR K U N Y : No, no objection Your'Worship. It is in accordance

with our Section 115..

BY THE COURT: Is it formally admitted that the statement

was made by the accused ?

MR KUNY: Well that these questions were put and the 30

the answers which are recorded on that document were

given. It is not a statement actually signed by the

accused, it is a form of question and answer.

BY THE COURT: And may I -enquire whether this is ad­

mitted whether this was given freely and voluntarily?

MR KUNY: As Your Worship pleases yes.

PROSECUTOR: I will read out the questions and answers.

This is done on the 4th of March 1983 and the accused

before - appeared before Captain Kruger of the security

branch of the SA Police in Krugersdorp. She was warned

that she was suspected of having committed the crime of

contravening Section 13 (1)(A) 1 to 5 of Act 74/82

(PROSECUTOR READS further ) (Handed in as EXH B)

BY THE COURT: This document will be marked EXH A )

DIE STAAT R O E P :

MARTIN JOHANNES S A U N D E R S , beedig vprklaar:

OXDERVRA DEUR A A N K L A E R : • U is 'n kolonel in die S A

Polisie en as sulks afdeling speur-offisier van die

afdeling Wesrand en gestasioneer te Krugersdorp? ---Dit

is korrek.

Op die 4£ Maart 1983 om ongeveer tien-voor-twee

die middag is die beskuldigde na u kantoor gebring? ---

Dit is korrek.

Het u 'n onderhoud met haar gevoer in die kantoor?

--- Dit is korrek.

Wie was almal teenvcordig toe hierdie onderhoud

gevoer was? --- Ek en die beskuldigde alleen.

Watter taal was daar gebesig? --- Engels.

Kan u aan die Hof vertel wat die aard van hierdie

onderhoud w a s ? --- beskuldigde, tesame met 'n verklaring

was na my gebring en aan my oorhandig ..

Sal u asseblief kyk na BEW A asseblief? Was

dit die verklaring of was dit ‘n ander verklaring? .

--- Dit is die verklaring en op die verklaring is daar ook

’n endossement deur my aangebring aan die einde van daar-

d i e . .

U kan maar sommer nou daardie endossement aan

die Hof uitlees? --- (GETUIE LEES ENDOSSEMENT OP VERKLARING

BEW A )

Is daar enige ander mededeling aan die beskul-

digae gemaak? --- Ja. 10

Wat is dit? --- Sy het gese dat sy die vrae wel

beantwoord het, omdat die dokument betrokke haar eiendom

is en dat sy haar mede-kollegas nie daarby betrokke wou

he nie.

Watter taal het sy gebruik toe sy dit vir u se

---Sy het dit in Engels gese.

Kan u aan die Hof verduidelik hoe dit gebeur het

dat sy dit vir u gese het ? --- Dit was nadat ek vir haar

die vrae voorgelees het en sy dit bevestig het, het sy

net spontaan geantwoord daarop en dit was haar wocrde. 20

Was dit voor of nadat u die endossement op BEW A

aangebring het ? --- Dit is net nadat ek die vrae aan

haar uitgelees het en sy dit bevestig het.

Op BEW A het u 'n sekere endossement aangebring

wat u alreeds aan die Hof uitgelees het? --- Korrek.

Die mededeling van die beskuldigde, was dit voor

of na daardie endossement aangebring was? --- Dit was

tydens daardie endossement net daarop aangeteken.

Het u dit op een of ander plek aangeteken? ---

Nee ek het nie ek het net 'n inskrywing in my voorvalleboek 30

gemaak. In my dagboek gemaak.

/H c e . .

3 Kol . Saunders

00054?

Hoe lank was die beskuldigde in die kantoor ge-

wees? --- Plus-minus 15 minute.

Het sy enigiets anders aan u meegedeel behalwe

dit wat u reeds vir die Hof gese het ---met my voor-

stelling aan haar het sy net gese - toe ek vir haar

baie mooi laat verstaan het dat ek nie verbonde is aan

die veiligheidstak nie, "0 ons is maar net almal van

deiselfde mag"

En in u posisie as amptelike speurder-offisier

het u tnigsins enigiets te doen by die Veiligheidstak

te Krugersdorp? --- Nee ek het nie.

Enige ander Veiligheidstak te Krugersdorp?

--- N e e .

GEEN VERDERE VRAE

GEEN VRAE DEUR MNR KUNY

A G 0 0J 4 3 Kol.Saunders

MARY RAPHAEL MOROKWANE , sworn states:

EXAMINED BY PROSECUTOR-; Are you a sister of the St Mary

Convent, Khagiso, 1, Krugersdorp? --- Yes.

Now where do you stay? --- Khagiso Location.

In a house or where do you stay there? --- St Ma

C o n v e n t .

Do you know the accused? --- Yes I do.

Where does ^ie s t a y ? --- Together with us. In the

h o u s e .

How many of you are staying in that house? ---

Four of us.

Are you sleeping in one bedroom or does everyone

have his own separate bedroom? --- Each one possesses h

own room.

Now in this house as you refer to is there a

communia1 room or not ?

5 Sister Mary Morokwane

___Yes it is a community room we refer to it as such.0 0 0 2 A V

Can you describe the furniture in that room?

---There are tables , chairs, a hi fi radio set,

Do you '’jknow whether any books or documents or

pamphlets are stored in that Hi Fi radio Yes.

Now where in the radio is it kept? --- Where the

records are kept.

Yes where is it, is it a drawer or an open space,

or a cupboard or what is it ? ---In a shelf.

And who store books and documents there ? ---Any 10

of us could place anything there, but as far as I know

Sister - the accused places her own things also there,

that have something to do with her own job.

What do you mean by things ?--- Books.

Books relating to her work? --- Yes

What type of work does she do ? --- I uuly a^are

of the fact that she is employed by the Bishops Conference

it is a type of book she keeps there.

Did you ever see her place books there or removing

books from there? --- Yes.

On how many occasions ? --- Only once-

How long before her arrest was that ? Did you

knew when she was arrested? --- It was a long before that

Before what? --- Then

Do you know when she was arrested? ---On the 4th

of March.

Now how long before that date did you see her either

removing or putting books in the radio? --- I do not re­

member how long

Days or months or how long would you say/ --- I

do not know.

/Now.

20

30

6 Sister Morokvane

Now this shelf you are referring to, is it anQ Q Q Q 5 i j

open shelf or is it a closed shelf or what ? Can you

please describe it to the Court ? --- It opens and closes

In what manner? --- You pull it

Byt the drawer? ---

Do you open the door- open the drawer ? You

pul 1 it.

By the drawer? --- *

Do you open a door to get to the shelf is that

correct, a cupboard door? --- You pull the door down- 10

w a r d s .

And how many of them are there, of that type of

shelves, only the one or is there more than one? ---Only

or.e- I think just one.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

BY THE C O U R T : Is this shelf part of the HI FI set?

— Yes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY 'ADV KUNY: Sister Raphael, how long

have you been living at that convent? --- Since Decem­

ber 1976. 20

And the accused, for how long has she lived there?

--- Since 1972.

So you and she have lived in the same place for

a number of years ? --- Correct.

Now you therefore know her very well and you know

all about her work as well? --- What must I say now?

Well is that not so ? --- I am aware that she is

working

You know that she does research work in the

S.A. Bishop's Conference? ---Yes. 30

And that she writes reports? --- Yes

And that she has a great deal of paper work

t ~

7 Sister Morokwane

to do? ---Most of the work she does at Bishop's con­

ference office

Yes but she also does a certain amount of work

at the Convent? Paperwork? --- Yes.

And she keeps books, and documents and. papers

at the Convent in this communal room? --- Yes

In connection with her work? --- Yes.

Do the other three sisters who live there, that

is yourself included also have books and documents and

papers which they keep there? — - Yes 10

So that room is really a room where you would all,

all of you put your papers, your books, your documents,

your odds and ends? --- That is so.

Is it very tidy or is it a bit untidy from time

to time? --- Sometimes it is tidy and sometimes untidy

And is that room used by all four of you as a work

room as well as a room in which you relax? ---Yes all

sisters relax there, visitors go downstairs.

And you also work there ? --- Yes.

At the tables or sitting in the chairs in that room? 20

--- Yes.

Now you say that only once did you see Sister

Bernard place books in the shelf is that so ? ---That is so

Surely you were all frequently removing books from

the room or taking books from the room, putting books

in the room, this was happening all ths time? ---That is

so.%

Because there must have been a great deal of activity

taking place in that room? --- Yes.

Were you incidentally present when the police came 30

to the Convent on the 4th of March.' ? --- Yes I was

present, but I was..

000551

8 Sister Morokwnne

r\ r\ Pi z c. 'but I was asleep at the time. UuJ.. .

When did they come? --- I did not see them arrive

because I was asleep.

What time did you first see them? ---Ten to 6

in the morning.

Do you know who opened for them? --- I do know

according to what I heard it.

Only what you heard. Now I just want to ask you

about this shelf on which various books were kept, You say

that sister Bernard keeps her books on this particular

shelf?--- Documents and books.

Yes, that is what I wanted to ask you, it is not

just books but documents as well? Letters various kinds?

--- Yes

And is the shelf fairly full of books and papers

and documents ? --- Yes

Is that specifically for her things or do other

people also put their- things there ? --- So far I have

not seen anybody else place her things inside there that

particular shelf, although we are all free to do it.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

RE-EXAMINATION BY PROSECUTOR: Where do you keep your

books and documents? --- In my room and also in the spare-

rocm.

But do you know where the other two sisters

keep their books and documents? ---I only know that they

keep their documents and books in their rooms, but I do

not know where they keep their'other documents and books

KONST. AUCAMP.

9 .000555

HERMAN POTGIETER AUCAMP, beedig verklaar:

ONDERVRA DEUR A A N K L A E R : U is ’n konstabel in die S A

Polisie verbonde aan die Veiligheidstak en gestasioneer

te Krugersdorp? --- Ek was ten tye van die saak, maar

nie meer nie.

Op die Maart 1983 om ongeveer 5h20 het u en

ander lede van die mag gegaan na St Mary's convent

in Kagiso te Krugersdorp? --- Dit is korrek.

Dit' is gemenesaak dat daar sekere geskrifte

gevind is in die Convent, wie het dit gevind ? --- Ek het 10

dit gevind.

En waar het u dit g e v i n d ? ---In 'n radiogram

in 'n laai en 'n portaaltjie voor beskuldigde se woonkamer.

Nou kan jy net die laai aan die Hof beskryf asse-

blief, is dit 'n gewone laai soos laaie in ’n tafel of

watse tipe laai is dit? --- Nee dit is onderaan die radio­

gram , ’n mens merk hom ook nie dadelik op nie, dit is

heelonder dit is 'n plat laaitjie. 'n Klein laaitjie, ek

het hom aanvanklik nie opgemerk nie, maar wel op 'n

later geleentheid. 20

En hoe maak ’n mens die laai o o p ? --- Jy trek

hom net oop met ‘n handvatselt j i e .

Dan trek hy uit soos ’n gewcne l a a i ? ---Scos ’n

gewone l a a i .

Het jy enige ander rak of iets soortgelyks aan die

radiogram gevind? --- ja daar is ander rakke ook in die

radiogram, ek het hulle ook deurgegaan maar daar was

niks daarin gevind nie.

Nou hierdie ander rak is dit oop rakke- of is dit

rakke wat oopmaak? ---Ook met deure. 30

En was dit leeg of was daar enige goedere daarin?

/Daar..

p n---DaAR was gcwone cydskrifce in waC ’n mens in 'n U w

cafeCeria kan koop.

Watse soorC cydskrifce is die ? --- Ek kan nie

onchou waCCer cydskrifce is die waC die regce naam was m e .

Ek wys aan u 'n arCikel waC geCiCel is "LeC us

rise to Che occasion" HeC .u daardie pamfleC gevind?

___j a die is een van die pamfletce wat ek gevind heC.

Dit is BEW 1 .

DEUR DIE H O F : Waar het u dit gevind? ---Dit het ek in

Radio gevind, in daardie laai daaronder.

HOOFGETUIENIS (VERV) Ek toon aan u sewe uitgawes van

"Total War in South Africa" van Nusas, het u dit ook

daar gevind? --- Ek het dit ook daar gevind in dieselfde

laai.

Edelagbare wil u he dat dit apart genommer moet

word of kan dit 2 lles m g a a n as B~vs l .

DEUR DIE H O F : Is hulle almal dieselfde?

AANKLAER: Alrr.al presies dieselfde.

DEUR DIE H O F : Ek dink dit kan as BEW 2 genommer word

en as dit nodig is ora na 'n besondere eksemplaar te ver-

wys dan kan dit maar BEW 2A , 2B ensovoorts gencmmer word.

HOOFGETUIENIS (VERV) Het u enige iets anders in daardie

betrokke laai gevind? --- Ja, ek kan nie die name daarvan

onthou nie, dit is 'n hardeband boek wat ek daar gevind

het en dan nog ander pamflette, maar daat/is vasgestel

later dat dit blykbaar nie verbede was nie

Kyk na die boek en die twee pamflette? Die boek

kan ek merk BEW 3. --- "NEW COLLONIALISM AND AFRICA

in the 19701s"

Dit is BEW 3 Edelagbare, en 'n pamflet "RIDING

the TIGER"? BEW U . "SOCIAL REVIEW" - BEW 5 .

] 0 I\OllbL • nucdllip

11

Ek toon aan u twee identiese bladsye met geskrewe

- het u dit ook in die laai gevind? --- ja ek het dit

ook daar gevind.

BEW 6 Edelagbare En dan "ZANIAN NATIONAL YOUTH

UNITY" Het u dit daar gevind? --- Ja ek het dit ook daar

gevind.

Dit is BEW 7 . Het u beslaggele op al die ar-

tikels wat u in die laai gevind het of net op sommiges?

___ Net op sommiges daar was gewone tydskrifte ook in die

laai. 10

Kan u nog die grootte van die laai aan die Hof be-

sk r y f , die lengte, breedte en diepte? By benadering? ---

Edelagbare ek kan nie se hoe breed hy was nie ek kan nie

onthou nie, near hy was ongeveer so diep.

D EUR DIE HOF: U dui aan so 4 duim? --- Vier duim.

En die lengte? --- Ongeveer seker 2 voet

HOP FG ETUI EN* 15 : U kan nie onthou hoe breed dit was nie?

--- Ja ek kan nie onthou nie.

DEUR DIE H O F : Verwys jy nou na sy d i e p t e ? ---Sy diepte.

Dit is nou van voor na agter? --- Ja dit was on- 20

geveer 2 voet.

HOOFGETUIENIS (VERV) Nou die BEW 1 EN DIE ANDER UITGAWE

VAN "TOTAL WAR" het u dit, op watter stadium het u dit

gesien in die l a a i / ---Ek het die laai heeltemal uitgepak,

en ek het dit aan die - wat ek in die laai gevind het wat

vir my van be Iang was, het ek aan Luitenant Mostert oor-

handig - ek het alles uitgepak wat in die laai was.

Was die laai in 'n netjies toestand ? ---Daar was

bietjie stowwerig in die laai.

Maar die goed wat gebere was in die laai was dit 30

netjies ? --- ja ek kan dit bestempel as netjies.

/Was . .

000555

12 n ri n — Konst.Aucampu 'J J y j 6

Was u teenwoordig toe Luit Mostert ’n onderhoud

met die beskuldigde gevoer het? In verband met BEW 1 tot

2 tot 8 ? --- Nee ek was nie teenwoordig nie.

Nou ek sien op al die items verskyn 'n handtekening

met die endossement "Konstabel" agter. Is dit u hand­

tekening? Ek verwys net na een van hulle ;? ---Dit is

korrek. Die een handtekening is myne en die ander hand­

tekening is die handtekening van die beskuldigde hier

teenwoordig.

Het sy dit in u teenwoordigheid onderteken? ---

Dit is korrek.

Hoe het sy vir u voorgekom toe sy dit geteken

het ? --- Sy was doodkalm gewees.

GEES’ VERDERE VRAE

DEUR DIE HOF: Advokaat Kuny - ek het die bewysstukke

hier, ek weet nie of u dit wil sien nie ?

ADV KUNY: Ja, kan ek al die bewysstukke sien asse-

blief?

DEUR DIE H O F : Sekerlik. Ek het op van die bewysstukke

wat ek by my gehad het die bewysstuk nommer opgeskryf van

die ander wat ek nog nie in my besit gehad het nie, ek

weet nie of hulle al genommer is nie.

ADV: KUNY KRUISVERHOOR : Konstabel Aucamp, was daar

heelwat boeke en dokumente in hierdie laaie gevind? ---

ja daar was nog verskeie ander boeke ook daar gevind.

H o e v e e 1 laaxe was daar? ——— Daar *vdS net een ^aa^

En waar was die ander boeke en dokumente? ---

Daar was boeke en dokumente in haar persoonlike kas, daar

was boeke en dokumente in 'n kas in die portaal, daar was

boeke en dokumente in hierdie selfde kabinet waar ek die

gevind het in kassies langs die k a n t .

/So...

13 n o n ' W Konst Aucarr;p

So daar was heelwat ander boeke en dokumente

wat versprei was? --- Ja dit was versprei

In verskillende plekke? --- Dit is korrek.

En in hierdie laai was daar ook verskillende boeke

en dokumente? --- Dit is korrek.

En voordat u hierdie dokumente, die betrokke

dokumente BEW I en 2 uit die laai geneem het het u

alles uit die laai geneem? --- Korrek

En tussen in die boeke'en dokumente wat daarin was

het u hierdie dokumente en boeke gevind? --- Nie tussen-in

nie dit was apart gewees, versprei van die ander.

Nou praat u nou van BEW 2? --- Dit is reg. So dit

was alles in 'n staatboekie gewees in die hoek,

"TOTAL WAR" ---Dit is korrek.

Maar BEW 1 , hierdie dckument•, dit was tussen-

in al die dokumente wat u daar gevind het ? --- Ek kan

nie onthou of dit tussen-in was nie maar dit was in die

laai.

Ja u kan nie se presies waar dit was nie ? ---

ja.

En dit was net in hierdie toestand gevind met

hierdie bladsy voor? --- Dit is korrek.

Sodat u dit moet oopmaak om te sien wat daar

ingeskryf is? --- Dit is korrek.

En ek neem aan dat u beslaggele het op die boeke

en dokumente wat ’n mcontlike politieke konnotasie

gehad het --- Dit is korrek.

Op daardie stadium het u 'nie geweet of hulle ver-

bode dokumente en boeke was of nie ? --- Korrek.

En u het heelwat ander boeke en dokumente daar laat

staan --- Dit is korrek.

CEEN VERDERE VRAE /LUIT.MOSTERT.

1 A

JAMES TI MOTH IAS M O S T E R T , beedig verklaar:

ONDERVRA DEUR AANKLAER: U is 'n Luitenant in die SA Polisie

verbonde aan die Veiligheidstak , Krugersdorp? --- Dit

is reg.

Was u op die A€ Maart van vanjaar teenwoordig

toe die vorige getuie Konstabel Aucamp, sekere stukke

in die St Mary's Convent gekry het ? ---Dit is korrek.

Wat het hy met hierdie artikels gemaak wel

nadat hy dit gevind het ? --- Hy het dit aan my oorhandig.

Is dit die artikels nou hier voor die Hof ?

--- Dit is van hulle.

Is daar nog iets anders gekry? --- Daar was ander

artikels ook gewees.

Soos ? --- 'n Paar boeke daardie goed wat daar le.

Hulle is alreeds ingehandig. Het u met die be-

skuldigde 'n cnderhoud gevoer in verband irici. hierdie

artikels? --- Toe die goed gekry is ek dink my woorde was

het ek aan haar gese"dit lyk my ons het ’n probleem hier"

en ek het haar gewaarsku en haar regte aan haar verduide-

lik en gevra of sy enigiets wou se.

Wat was haar reaksie? --- Sy wou geen verdui-

deliking gee nie, sy het vir my gese sy praat .nie sender

haar regsverteenwoordiger nie.

U het vir die Hof gese u het haar gewaarsku, hoe

bedoel u hoe het u vir haar gewaarsku? --- Ek vermoed

daardie, veral die een ding met die foto van Oliver Ta .k-.a

op dat dit uit Seshaba uitkom en dus besit onwettig is

- Daardie dokument met die foto van Oliver Ta*■*!.■■ a op

Watter dokument is dit noum, waarna verwys u ?---

Dit is BEW 1. Ek het haar gese sy is nie verplig

om 'n verduideliking te gee nie en daarop het sy net vir

000353

15 Luit.Mostert

my gese dat sy niks te se het sonder haar regsverteen-

woordiger nie. Die dergelike woorde dit kom daarop neer.

Nou toe u vir haar gese het "Dit lyk my ons het

probleme" watse taal het u gebruik? --- Ek het Engels

gepraat.

Waarna het u toe verwys toe u gese het "Dit lyk

my ons het probleme" ? --- Na daardie dokument

BEW 1 ? --- Met die foto van Oliver T3mba op.

En het u toe onmiddellik voortgegaan om haar regte

aan haar te verduidelik? Nadat u gese het dit lyk

my ons het probleme? --- Ja ek het vir haar gese sy is

nie verplig om enigiets te se nie , sy het gese sy ken

haar regte in elk geval. Ek glo nie ek het haar 'n vol-

ledige waarskuwing volgens regtersreels gegee nie.

Wat was haar toestand op daardie stadium, hce het

sy vir u voorgekom? Was sy kalm? ---Kaim, ek sal nit se

sy het enige probleme gehad nie, 'n mens sa*l dit nie se

n i e .

U se u het vermoed dat bewysstuk 1 is 'n uittreksel

uit Seshaba uit? --- Dit is korrek.

Het u dit vergelyk met Seshaba om vas te stel

of dit wel so is? --- Ek het dit gedoen by die kantoor.

Waar het u die tydskrifte Seshaba gekry? ---

Ons kry van tyd-tot-tyd die goed en as ons dit nie het

nie dan kry ons dit van Pretoria af, of van Hoofkantoor

af waar ’n biblioteek is.

Ek toon aan u 'n tydskrif 1980 Seshaba "Official

Organ of the African National Congress -of South Africa"

--- Dit is een van die Seshabas ek weet nie hoeveel ek

deurgegaan het voor ek op die stuk afgekom het wat korres-

/pondeer..

16 0 0 0 5 6 l $ i t - Mostert

pondeer het met daardie uittreksel nie.

Op Watter bladsy verskyn die wat op

BEW 1 verskyn? --- Op bladsy 2, 3 tot verder tot by

bladsy 1 2 .

Hierdie is BEW 8 .

GEEN VERDERE VRAE Luitenant kan ek net na daardie

Setshaba kyk , en ook BEW 1? Luitenant u se dat toe u

hierdie dokument gesien het het u vermoed dat dit 'n

uittreksel was van 'n S e t s h a b a ? --- Dit is korrek.

U was nie seker daarvan nie ? --- Ek het ‘n baie sterk 10

vernosde gehad as u kyk na die Setshaba die grootte

van die blad en die manier waarop dit gedruk word dan

is die ooreenkoms baie sterk.

Ja maar u kon nie seker gewees het nie ? Toe u

cit eers gesien het ? --- Nee ek was nie 100% seker nie

En u sal toegee dat daar niks op hierdie dokument

BEW 1 is cm te bewys dat dit wel uioSechaba kom nie? ---

Dit is korrek

Daar is geen datum hierop nie? --- Ek het nou nie so

goed opgemerk nie maar dit is moontlik dat daar nie 'n 20

datum op is nie.

En geen aanduiding in enige ander opsig dat

dit uit Sechaba kom nie? --- Dit is korrek.

En u se u moes deur 'n hele aantal Sechabas kyk voor-

dat u die betrokke een gevind het ? --- Dit is reg.

Dan hierdie Sechabas word by julle kantore ge-

hou? --- Normaalweg word hulle Pretoria toe gestuur, en

vandaar sou ons die goed kry, ons het 'n paar van die

goed daar gehad toevallig.

GEEN VERDERE VRAE

GEEN HERVERHOOR 30

- HOF VERDAAC -

p, n n c. < 1 y U U V. J O i

HOF H E R V A T :

PROSECUTOR APPLIES FOR A REMAND IN THIS MATTER

(FOR FURTHER INVESTIGATION TO INVESTIGATE THE QUESTION

OF MENS REA on Che pare of Che accused)

MR KUNY OPPOSES THE APPLICATION FOR A REMAND

BY THE C O U R T : Ic seems from Che case record ChaC Che

accused has appeared in CourC on a number of occasions

and Che maCCer was Chen posCponed. However Che accused

is on bail and ic seems to me ic is not unreasonable Co

grant the application of Mr Thiart, and the application 10

is accordingly granted.

Accused, the matter is then being postponed until

the 1st of December 1983 in this Court Court No 13, you

are on bail , you must again attend on that day at half­

past eight in the morning and remain in attendance.

ADV K U N Y : Your Worship, may be uplift the Sccticr. 115

statement in order that we can make copies of it?

BY THE C O U R T : I have it in my office you can get it there,

I have not brought it with me to Court now, but I have

it in my office. 20

- CASE REMANDED TO 1/12/83 -

ON RESUMING ON THE 1/12/83: (PART HEARD)

(APPEARANCES AS B.EFORE)

PROSECUTOR: Your Worship at the last hearing I indicated

to you that I might call further witnesses, I do not intend

doing so and I closs the case of the State.

- S T A t E :C -A ,S E

ADV KUNY: Sir we call the accused to give evidence.

MARY BERNARD (NCUBE) , sworn states:

EXAMINED BY ADV KUNY: Sister Bernard, you are employed 30

by the SA Bishop's Conference? --- Yes, I am.

18 Accused

As a field worker? Y e s .

Where do you work and what is the nature of the?

work that you d o ? ---My base is at Canya House in Pretoria

and my field work is on a national level with the sisters

in Southern Africa.

For how long have you been in the Church? ---In the

Church? As a nun or..

Yes, just describe to His Worship your back­

ground in the Church? --- Well I have been 25 years as

a nun teaching in the Catholic Schools and for the 10

last three years I have been working as a national worker

as a field worker with the Bishop's Conference.

booster my knowledge especially in the . situation, and to

know the South African situation.

And where do you get your materials from? ---

From all sorts of resource material centres.

Now where do you live? --- I live in Kagiso 1.

convent .

Who else lives in that Convent? --- We are three

- there are three other sisters, my companions.

And what precisely do you do as a field worker?

--- As a field worker my main task I used to do a lot

of analvsis of the situation of South Africa and then

impart that to the sisters with whom I work with.

Do you travel much ?--- I do.

Do you make the use of resource m a t e r i a l ? ---1 do.

What sort of materials would you make use of?

--- The sort of materials that I use is somehow to 20

It ic a

n o 0 r-. ' 319 U v - - Accused

Now in the place where you live, do you have a

room of your own? --- Yes, I do have my room.

And is there a communal area which serves all

of you ? --- The rest of the house outside our bedrooms

is communal rooms.

Where do you keep y.our papers and m a t e r i a l ? ---I

keep some of them in my room, and then some of them in

our communial rooms.

On the 4th of March of this year, your Convent

was visited by -..members of the Security police ? --- 10

Yes.

Can you recall at what time of the day or night

they came there first? --- It was the early hours of

the morning, between 3 and 4 and they knocked at the

door, I walked out because my room is just adjacent to .

the front door and opened the top window to find out who

were there, people knocked downstairs, and when I opened

the window I asked them to identify themselves, and one of

them said they are policemen. So from there I simply

said "No we can't open the door at this hour of the morning" 20

so I just closed the window and went back to bed.

Did you know whether they were ordinary police or

security police or what they were there for? --- I did

not go further as to ask who they are, what they were doing

and with who they were, I simply said well we could not

oper. the dccr at that hour of the night.

Yes, and later that morning, did they again knock

and did you open for them? --- Yes, later that morning

about 6 they knocked, they started again , I walked out and

went to ther-bathroom, washed myself and then 1 got dressed 30

as I was preparing myself to get to Canya House from my

/w o r k ...

20 Q 0 0 5 6 A Accused

work and went downstairs and opened the door and in cane

three men and one woman.

Now a search then took place? --- Yes, at that

time I did not even know their names, so Col. Mostert

said I should identify myself, I said I am Sister Mary

Bernard-, the exclamation came "This is the woman we had

been looking for quite a long time" and

Who said that ? --- Kol . Mostert.

Yes --- Whom I did not know the name of at that

time, he said that he had a search warrant, so I said 10

"Well if you have a search warrant then you have to do

your work, do it as you can, so he, and the lady they had

brought with them said she wanted to do a body search

if I had a private place to go to. so I said I have got my

room upstairs so we went upstairs she asked me to undress

and I undressed until everything - in fact I was naked

so I stood before her naked, and then from there she said

I should undress and 'then we went out of my room and then

we got into the communial room, where the three other men

were waiting for her, so they started searching the house.

Well she conducted her search and they conducted

t h e i r’s ? --- Yes .

And in searching they found certain documents

and books, and these were removed? --- These were removed.

Now where were they taken from . --- Th e y were

taken fvoai a radio and in fact Col. Mostert hiinsei.1.,

because when they searched that room, the younger police­

man was doing the search, and I was within my room, and

when I came out of my room he said to me "You are running

into trouble here Sister Bernard" and then I did not 3C

answer him and I said "Well I do not know what you are

/talking...

20

^ r~ ^ 2 i 0 U o-3 Accused

Calking about"

And did you see that various documents and

books were removed? --- Yes then the other - the younger

police kept on bringing the books to him and he was show­

ing me the booiks and writing, and then the only thing

I said he should write the. list for me if he is going

to take anything whatever.

And that was done? ---And that was done.

And this was all material removed from this

radio? --- Yes. 10

Was it your material? --- Well the material were

mine becuase of my work, , I said that even in my state­

ment .

You kept some of your material in this radio?

— yes.

Now you subsequently went tn the police station

where you made a statement ? - — Yes

An oral statement, --- An oral statement at the

same time I did not know that it was a statement because

I asked them to - that I cannot give a statement because 20

before I saw my lawyer, that is what I said.

But in any event to Col. Saunders you admitted that

various documents which had been removed were your

property? --- that is right. That is correct.

And arousing out of that search and removal

you have hppn c'nsropd with possession of two documents

in particular - the one is the document which is perhaps

you can get the original - I have a copy Your Worship?

Can we have the original? It is EXH 1 , "LET US RISE TO

THE OCCASION" ? --- That is correct. 30

Do you admit that that was found; amongst your

/papers...

22 q 0 0 " ^ Accused

papers? --- That is right.

Did you recognise it when you saw it that day/

--- Well he simply showed these things to me as he was

writing them in that book but I knew I had this document

for as early as '81 and '80 something like that.

•80 - '81? --- Yes. .

Do you remember where and how you came into

possession of that document? --- If my mind is still quite

clear about it, I received it from the post at London Post

somewhere. 10

How was it received in an envelope? --- In an

envelope, it was wrapped in an envelope.

Was it received in this form or in some other form?

--- No, it is just this form.*

Just like that ? --- Yes

Was there any covering letter with it? --- No,

nothing.

And at the time you received it, did you know

who had sent it to you. ?--- no.

Did you read it? --- I read it. 20

And that would have been what y e a r ? --- As I have saic

between '80 and '81.

And having read it what did you do with it ? ---

I just read it - I just packed it with some of my books

in that part of the radio

You packed it away? --- Yes, I just put it in

there.

After having done that did you ever take it out

again and read it again or look at it again? --- No, I

have not I have never in fact read it again that is for sure.

Did you remember that you had had it? --- It

slipped my mind that there was such a document.

2 3 0 0 r- : Accused

Do you remember seeing ic agin at any time be­

tween the time that you originally received it and the time

that it was taken out of this cabinet on the 4th of March

--- X do not really recall seeing it quite often be­

cause I would not see it quite often even then because

I just put some of my things there and there is a need

I go up for it or something like that, but I do not

recall reading it twice .

BY THE COURT: But you are using the words "quite often"

the question was did you see it again, after you

packed it away until it was found? --- I mean the shelf

I used I do put Books and then sometimes draw them out

and then just put them again.

ADV KUN'Y: Now this particular document, did you see this

particular document again from the time that you had read

it and put it on the shelf amongst your papers until

the time it was found on the 4th of March --- Seeing it

in particular is a different thing, when you have got

all lots of books there, just pulling it and taking what

you want and putting them back.

BY THE C O U R T : Are you then saying that you cannot recall

having seen it ? --- After my reading it?

Y e s ? --- No.

I do not understand your reply? --- My reply is

just that I did not have anything special to remember

a hour it as a document that I could have said 1 have

seen it.

Can't you recall having seen it again/ During this

period? --- I might have seen it you know

The question is can you recall having seen it, can

you remember having seen it again? --- I am trying to say

/there . . .

10

20

30

r. 0 f . i "i /<C* Vw' *■' -* 24 Accused

there were other documents packed with it and I nor­

mally get there to find somethings.

ADV K U N Y : Now do you know a publication by the

name of Sechaba? --- I do not know about that.

Had you ever possessed such a publication? ---No

Received such a publication --- I haven't

Have you ever read such a publication? ---No.

Do you know whether this document EXH 1 comes

from a publication called Sechaba? --- No, that I did

not know. 10

Was there anything on this document itself to

indicate where it came from or whether it came from any

publication? --- No I did - I was not even aware that

it comes from any publication.

Do you know whether this document has ever been

banned or prohibited in Law? --- No, I did not know that

it was .

Now the other publication with which you are

charged, is a publication called "TOTAL WAR IN SOUTH

AFRICA" --- yes. 20

And several copies of this were found amongst

your papers? --- Yes.

Where and when did you come into possession of it?

--- That must have been in '82 October somewhere there.

Yes, how and where? --- It was issued at the

work s h n n .i

BY THE COURT: You must have received these copies

during October 19? --- '82 I mean.

ADV K U N Y : You say at a workshop? --- yes.

Where was this Workshop? --- This workshop must 30

have been in Campus I think

10

p n n ( . -

25 Accused

Which campus? --- Wits campus. Sanitor House

What sort of workshop was it? --- It was just a

workshop for a lot of - work was done on m ilitarization

and detainess committee or something like that.

And how did you come to receive copies of this

publication? --- These copies were just lying there and

free for all to take.

Were there many available? --- Yes.

And were people taking them freely? --- . Yes.

Now you took 7 copies of it ? --- Yes, I did.

Why did you take seven copies ? --- I just as

first for my resourse material you know and for my work

as well and maybe in changing also maybe if possible

wherever it will be needed to give some sisters to read.

Now did you know what the content of this publi­

cation was? --- I did not reaa tnrougn even the bocks

I had a summary paper attached to it.

BY THE C O U R T : I beg your pardon? --- I did not read

through the publication itself,

Not at all? --- Not at all. But there is a brief 20

summary for it, a historical summary for - of dates and

so forth.

ADV KUNY: How did there come to be a summary? How did

the summary come about, who did the summary and where

was the summary? --- The summary was also on a piece

of sheet papers.

Was it for the purpose of the seminar? --- Yes

for the purpose of the seminar.

And did you take copies of that summary as well

---yes, I have a copy of that. 30

And having taken seven copies of this publication

/what...

what did you do with it ? --- I just put them together

just in the shelf with the rest of my other resource

b o o k s .

Did you ever thereafter take it out and read it?

--- N o , n o .

Did you ever distribute it or show it to anyone

e l s e ? --- No.

Did you ever make use of it for the purpose of

your work? --- Well some dates of the summary I did in

doing some analysis.

So you used the summary but not the publications

of it -.— No not the publications of the summary.

Now it appears that this publication was declared

a prohibited publication, on the 10th of december 1982

in terms of the Publications Act. Were you aware of this

fact --- No, I was net.

When did you first become aware of the prohibition

--- Well when surely I was told by K o l . Mostert

then at the time when he was taking that.

On the 4th of March? --- Yes. 20

Prior to that had you any knowledge of its pro­

hibition? --- No. I did not.

Do you get Government Gazettes? --- No I do not.

Do you ever study lists of banned publications?

--- N o .

Do you know a b o o k , a publication by the name of

Jacobsons which contains details up to date information

about prohibited publications? --- No, I do not.

Have you ever seen it ? --- No I have never seen it.

Have you ever heard of it ? --- No I have never. 30

Now I would just like to come back to this publication

•/pamphlet. . .

2 7 ' Accused

pamphlet or document.- EXH 1. Perhaps you could tell

His Worship, more explicitely about your knowledge of

it. You say that you received it in about 1980 or 1981?

---Y e s .

You read it ? --- Yes

Did you see that it- was a speech described as the

Congress. President 0 R Tembo on the occasion of January

8th 1968 anniversary of the African national Congress in

South Africa? --- Yes, I did.

Now when you had at the time when you read it, 10

did you know any reason why you should not be in possession

of it or read it ? --- Yes, I was not quite clear, I mean

there wasn't in my mind anything wrong about reading it

and so forth.

Yes, and once you had put it on your shelf,

did you ever have any occasion to refer to it again or

use it or read it again? --- No.

Do you receive in the post many documents and

publications? --- I do.

In connection with your work? --- Yes. 20

And what do you do with most of the material

that you receive? --- I do read them.

And then? --- Some are useful, some were some

were pictures, you cannot use all the materials but

do get ourselves to them, some read ...

Do you keep it ? --- Yes, I do keep soine of them

and some I do not.

Yes a couple of other points Sister Bernard, be­

tween the time that the police knocked at the door and

the time that it was eventually opened for them, would 30

you have had an opportunity if you had so wished to

have destroyed or ..

p n ■'c: 7 2

28 Accused

cr got rid of any prohibitive material in your possession?

--- I did not, commit that I had anything that would be

or anything wrong.

Now would you have had the opportunity if you had

so wished to destroy it? In the time that it took be­

tween the time that they knocked and the time that the

door was opened? --- If I had an opportunity I would have

destroyed?

Yes, wouldn't there have been that opportunity avai­

lable to you if you had so wished? --- Yes, if there was 10

anything to destroy I would have destroyed it, but I didm

not think of anything that was ..

Yes, AND in the course of your work and the

references that you make to the resource material, do you

make reference to various different documents of a

political nature? --- Yes, I do.

Is this in any way part of the work that you do

--- Yes, that is my work.

In what way does it assist you in your work? ---

It assists me because it has to give me a kind of facts 20

about the South African situation.

And do you refer to different sources of these

papers? --- Yes, I do.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY PROSECUTOR: Now when did you start

this field work as you referred to / --- '81.

When in '81? --- That is in September I should say

it should be there.

And before that you were just an ordinary teacher?

--- I used to do quite of youthwork.

Containing what? --- Containing YCW work and so 30

forth. Youn Christian Workers.

/Nc . .

29 Accused

No political connotation to it7 The youth work

that you did before you started doing this fieldwork?

--- It does - it has.

In what way? --- It also deals with a situation.

Now for what period of time then have you been

involved in research work a’bout the situation in South

Africa? --- For a period of tine it is not so much a

period of time, because it is my homework as a nun that

I should know what South Africa is all about so as to

shed the light of the Gospel on my pastoral work.

Now you referred to that you did research in about

the situation in South Africa, did I understand you

correctly? --- Yes.

Now what situations in South Africa? --- The si­

tuation of what is happening in South Africa.

inere here is lots of things happening0 ---Vos

Is it in the economical field or the clerical

field or in the political field? --- When you are doing

an analysis, if you understand the word 'analysis'

I do understand that yes? --- It means political,

economical,relgious and also social

So you did an analysis inter alia of the politi­

cal situation in South Africa? --- It is not just

polit ical

Amongst others ? Inter alia? --- Yes.

Mcv: political situation a bread ccnccpt cr did

you narrow your field to any specific concept? --- If

you do analysis you are not even limited only to the

South African situation, you have to go as wide as far

as the wide World - the international World as well.

That is not the answer to the question. ---

/Politically..

30 n .. ^ ... . Accused• . i v. .

Politically if you want me to say politically, I

find it very very difficult just to say politically

because I am dealing with a whole man kind of a thing,

what affects a person, therefore it affects him politi­

cally, it affects him economically, it affects him socially

and it affects him religiously.

Have you finished? --- Yes.

Do you mind answering my question please? ---

I do not know what you are trying to get to

Must I repeat my question? --- Yes, please. 10

You have conceded that you amongst others did an

analysis of a political situation of South Africa?

---. Yes

Then I asked you whether that analysis was about

the political situation in the broad sense or whether you

narrowed your tield to any specific concept?---It is a

broad sense.

Including how the political situation in South

Africa affects the blacks and ct'ner racial groups ? ---

Exactly. 20

And tried to establish whether there should not

be made some changes to it - whether the situation should

not be changed? --- Yes, according to Christian values.

Wasn't that the prime object of your research

and analysis? --- That was my prime object.of

You concent re ted on the t s p h e r e / p o l i t ical situation?

---If I concentrated on that and that is my work as a nun

not only even as a research worker.

In your research you must have learnt that many

publications referring to the political change in South 30

Africa on this aspoct was banned? --- The word'banned'

/depends...

Jl :j x.' - ■ Accused

depends really what you understand by it.

Prohibited,'the position of it, or the publication

of distribution of it, you came across that in your re­

search not so? --- I have never actually set banned -

some banned book and leave it on that things are banned.

BY THE C O U R T : Have you ever heard of it that the possession

of certain publications are prohibited? --- Hearing about

it and actually knowing about it

Did you hear of it ? --- I did hear in a vaigue

way. 10

I do not know what you mean by hearing of it in

a 'vaigue’way can you explain that to me please? ---

not knowing exactly what it is all about and what is

actually being done about it, and what is being banned.

CROSS-EXAMINATION (C O N T ) Now I want to try and elicit

frcm you that you in fact knew what publications were

banned and what were not banned? ---I didn't

but you have heard that some publications, the

name of the publications, that - but publications have

been banned? Referring or relating to the political 20

situations in South Africa? --- Vaiguely

What do you mean by vaiguely? --- Just not having

the full information about it.

Can you explain yourself please? --- Well seeing

- I might know the word 'banned' that some publica­

tions are banned, but I might not even Assimu! are that sense

publications are banned but you might not even assimulate

what that is all about.

Do you mean by that that you did not even establish

what the name of the publication was? --- It could have 30

been that but I did not just know that - what it was.

/What..

U u ‘j

32 Accused

What did you do then? --- Put your question?

You said that - I have asked you a question

and you said ’it could have b e e n’? --- Yes

But what did in fact happen? --- Just hearing

people like you can hear some people say such and such a

thing is banned, but you do not have the full knowledge

personally you know to say to have a real tangible fact

about it.

Didn't it happen to you that you were looking for

a publication to use in your work to find out that that

publication was in fact banned? Not being in possession

of it, but making enquiries as to where you can get hold

of a publication, and then hearing that that publication

is in fact banned, it means it is not available?

BY THE COURT: The question is a simple one. Just listen

to the question and try to reply to it? ---0 K.

The question is a simple one, have you in your

work happened to be looking for a certain publication and

then being told that it was banned. Did that happen to

y o u ? --- No.

CROSS-EXAMINATION (CONT) You of course know that the ANC

is a banned organization? --- I know that is a banned

Organization .

I think the correct phrase is it is an Unlawful

Organization. Now when did you hear about that ? --- From

readings and sometimes from newspapers.

No when? ---When?

Yes, when? --- Just the timing is a bit...

You do you know that for many years, is that correct?

--- Yes, I can say that yes.

Do you know when it was banned? - When it was

/ declared..

33 00057 Accused

declared an unlawful organization? The A N C?

Do you know when the A N C was declared an unlawful or­

ganization/ --- When? In the ’6 5’s or something.

Now when you read this document - EXH 1 after

receiving it, did you at that stage know who Oliver Tumbo

was ? --- I knew who Oliver Tumbo was.

Do you know him in person or only from hearing

of him? --- From hearsay.

Who is he? --- He is the President of the

African National Congress. 10

Now until today then you read that that speech

that he -made and you at that stage you already knew that

he was the President of the A N C. ---Hmm?

The day when you read the speech that was

publicised there, in EXH 1, on that day you already knew

that he was the President of the A N C? ---No, in fact

when I read it here, kind of saying, I knew that there

was a banned organization but definitely not having quite

an informed mind about it you know kind of..

That is not the question. On the day that you 20

read that article there --- Hh

That it is a speech from Oliver Tumbo, and that

you on that day knew that Oliver Tumbo was the President

of the A N C? --- No I knew vaiguely before that he was

BY THE COURT: But on that day you also knew? ---Yes

CROSS-EXAMINATION (C O N T ) Have you e ^ r re^d a n y t h i n g

like that before ? --- No.

Now why did you keep some of your documents in

the radio, in the communial room and some of that in

your own b e d r o o m ? --- 1 have a lot of spiritual books 30

in my room.

/So...

000 57836 Accused

So why did you tell the Court there is not

enough space for all the books in your bedroom? --- No,

my room is very small.

Do you want to tell the Court that there is not

enough space in your own bedroom for all these documents

and books? --- Yes.

Now on the morning of the first visit of the

police you asked them to identify themselves, is that

correct? - The morning of the 5th of March that morning

when the police came there, round about between 3 aiad 4 1

o'clock of the morning you have told the Court that

you asked them to identify themselves? --- Yes, through

the window.

Did they identify themselves? --- They say "It is

the police"

You did r.ot insist on any identification cards

or documents? --- No, I did not.

You did not know what the purpose of the visit

was? And from what branch they were ? --- No they simply said

he had a search warrant and he was coming to search the

h ouse.

I am talking about the first time they came there

when you said you were not opening the dcor at this time

of the night? On the first occasion? --- On the first

occasion they were outside. How could I..

Yes, tell me i.f T am correct '.or not, what happened

then you - they knocked on the door, you opened the

window, you asked them who they were and what they want,

they said they are from the police? --- I did not well

ask them what do they want, i simply said "Who are you?"

Then they said they are from the police? ---

/Yes. .

Collection Number: AK2145 KRUGERSDORP RESIDENTS’ ORGANISATION AND 4 OTHERS v. THE MINISTER OF LAW AND ORDER AND 2 OTHERS 1986 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg ©2012

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