rz - WordPress.comTissue & Cigarette Butt 102 8 x 10 Color photo of 5 Tissue and Cigarette Butt 103 Green & Yellow Bag 2975 & Contents ... 118 1 Pair Blue Jeans 119 1 Pair Grey T

-'~ .. ".--- , .. -. '.~~--- .. ~. -.~ ._--- --.

SUPREME COURT - STATE OF CALIFORNIA

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA,

Plaintiff-Respondent,

vs.

KEVIN COOPER,

Defendant-Appellant.

) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ,

r. rz If)' '-.. - • ICC. "

SUPREME COURT NO. ~'-t -'::'J~r

FROM SAN DIEGO COONTY

HON. RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE

San Diego County Superior Court Case No. CR 72787

Decel"..ber Decer:lber

REPORTERS' TR~~IPT

VOLUHE 10, 1934, Pages 626 through 4699 11, 1984, ?ages 4700 through 4800

For the Plaintiff and Respondent:

For the Defendant and Appellant:

JOHN K. VAN DE KAMP Attorney General State of California 110 West MA- Street San Diego, Ca. 92101

IN PROPRIA PERSONA

ROBERT L. ROACH, CSR 11127 DONNA D. BEARD, CSR 11874 Official Reporters San Diego County Superior Couct 220 West Broadway S~n Diego, California 92101

.. " U J , o (J

J c ~ II

,~ ! '

1

-- ....... ,.-~-~~ '.'-'. -,~ .... , _ ..•. _~ .. -....... _-~.-.

IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO

DEPARTMENT NO. 30

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA,

Plaintiff,

vs.

KEVIN COOPER,

Defendant.

HON. RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE

) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )

NO. OCR-9319

----------------------------------~)

APPEARANCES:

REPORTERS' TRANSCRIPT December 10, 1984

For the People: DENNIS KOTTMEIER District Attorney

For the Defendant:

WITH: JOHN P. KOCHIS Deputy District Attorne~ 1540 Mountain Avenue Ontario, California 91762

DAVID L. McKENNA Public Defender BY: DAVID E. NEGOS Deputy Public Defender 1060 West Sixth Street Ontario, California 91762

ROBERT L. ROACH, CSR 11727 DONNA D. BEARD, CSR 11874 Official Reporters

COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

·~·7 .:.

" U , , ,-, o :I L 1-' .U ·C .0

3- INDEX OF WITNESSES

EQB lH~ EEQEL~: Direct Cross

GREGONIS, DANIEL J. (Mr. Negus) 4626 (Mr. Kochis) 4665

MORRIS, Jeffrey W. (Mr. Kochis) 4676


Bedirect Recross , 4666

4650

.V· '~" •. " -: . -,-, U

I , I-' CI ~I ,--,-,

·LI . -, ,

' . .:-.-

ii

6-- INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Iden. In Evd.

1 5' x 3' Color Photo 2343 Aerial, CIM & Chino Hills

I-A Overlay for 2343 Exhibit No. 1

I-B Overlay for 2395 Exhibit No. 1

2 5' X 3' Color Photo 2345 Aerial, Chino Hills Area

2-A Overlay for 2763 Exhibit No. 2

2-B Overlay for 3802 Exhibit No. 2

3 5' X 3' Color Photo 2347 Ryen home, 2991 Residence, Lease Ranch

~~

3-A Overlay for 2660 ,or, Exhibit No. 3

4 5' X 3' Color Photo 2348 '-I Ryen home, 2991 Residence

5 40· x 60· Diagram, 2663 I

2991 Residence ,

5-A Overlay for 2664 '~I Exhibit No. 5 0 5-B Overlay for 2850

Exhibit No. 5 :J 5-C Overlay for 2904 L

Exhibit No. 5 ,-, 5-D Overlay for 2914 .L' Exhibit No. 5

5-E Overlay for 3071 ·0 Exhibit No. 5 LJ

5-F Overlay for 3805 Exhibit No. S

-" '-. . ~.


n u , , o o :I L

" u 9

~ ....• , .~ ~'''~ .-.-.~ . -=~

iv

~,

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Iden. In Eyd.

15 Daily Housing Record 2446 Dated 6-2-83, Four Pages

16 Contract-Canvas Shoes 2487

17 Contract-Purchase Order , and Stock Receipt Reports, (Pro Reds), Seven Pages

18 3 x 5 Color Photo, 2393 2482 Intersection Ramona , Edison :~~

19 3 x 5 Color Photo 2393 2482 Edison Looking East

20 3 x 5 Color Photo 2393 2482 Edison Looking West

21 3 x 5 Color Photo 2384 2482 Edison Looking West

22 3 x 5 Color Photo, 2482 /~, Edison Looking South or,

23 3 x 5 Color Photo, 2482 'J Ramona Looking South

24 3 x 5 Color Photo, 2401 2482 , Ramona Looking North ,

25 3 x 5 Color Photo, 2399 2482 ,-, Looking East, CIS North Fence 0

26 3 x 5 Color Photo, 2402 2482 -, Looking South, CIS North Fence ,--

27 3 x 5 Color Photo, 2402 2482 t Ramona Looking North , 28 8 x 10 Color Photo, 2378 2483

View North to

" North Fence U

29 8 x 10 Color Photo, 2400 2483 North Fence Showing Patch

'-'." ..


.. ~

'-- .....

30

31

32

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

8 x 10 Color Photo, View Looking North at Edison Plant

8 x 10 Color Photo, Cedar Hall, CIK

8 x 10 Color Photo, Peoples Photo, Pro Keds Storeroom, CIK Gym

Iden.

2540

2384

2455

33 8 x 10 Color Photo, 2455 Closeup, Pro Keds Storeroom, CIM Gym

34 8 x 10 Color Photo, 2455 Pro Keds Storeroom, CIM Gym, In And Out Of Box

35 8 x 10 Color Photo, 2455 Equipment Room, CIM Gym

36 8 x 10 Color Photo, Equipment Room Closeup, Tennis Shoes, CIM Gym

37 Camp Jackets, CIM

38 One Pro Ked

38-A Pro Ked Tennis Shoe

39 Tennis Shoe Impression, Pro Ked, Zerox Copy

40 16 x 20 Color Photo of Ryen Family

41 10 x 16 Color Photo of Chris Hughes

42 Hatchet and Brown Bag and Clear Plastic Bag

43 Hatchet Sheath

44 16 x 20 Color Photo of 2991 Old English Road Closet

2455

2375

2456

2617

3176

3178

2715

2685

2678


v

In Eyd.

2483

2483

2483

2483

2483

2483

2483

2483

,-, U , , o o :J L , , , ,

/i'_'.-

7

45

INDEX ~ EXHIBITS

16 x 20 Color Photo of 2991 Old English Road Closet

46 8 x 10 Color Photo of Ryen Car

47

48

49

50

51

52

53

8 x 10 Color Photo of Sailboat

8 x 10 Color Photo (Lang) Costa Rica Shirt

8 x 10 Color Photo of 2991 Old English Road Closet

8 x 10 Color Photo of Hatchet Sheath and Carpet at 2991 Old Eng li sh Road

Pro Keds Box with Two Shoes, 10 1/2

Tennis Shoe Impression, Converse, Xerox Copy

CIM Camp Jacket

54 CIM Camp Jacket

55 Diagram of Men's Prison at Chino

55-A Transparency for Diagram, Chino Prison

55-B Tansparency for Diagram, Chino Prison

56 CIM Camp Jacket

57 Butcher Paper Diagram of Reception Center Central

58

59

Movement History Summary, 7-30-83

Movement History Summary

Iden.

2678

3072

2708

2861

2456

2464

2376

2376

2373

2373

2436

2376

2367

2594

2506


--=1 vi

In Eyd.

n u I ,

,-, o :J c: I ,

.:1

.L

- ,. - -- -~.. ..--=,

vii

'~

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Ideo. In Evd ..

60 State of California, 2593 Tobacco Contract, 7-83 to 7-84

61 Tobacco Contract, 2593 7-82 to 7-83

62 Supply Contract, 2593 7-82 to 7-83

63 7 x 8 B/W Photo, 2512 Profile, Kevin Cooper --:.;;;;.;,-:....:~""'~~

64 4 x 5 B1W Photo, 2512 4690 Kevin Cooper

65 3 x 4 B/W Photo, 2583 4690

Kevin Cooper

66 Xerox of News Photo, Sheriff Tidwell

67 Diagram - R.C. west 2518 ';'>. ".~ .-,,;,-:

r ~ Equipment Room, Gym, etc. .. ,-,

68 Cassette Tape of U Taylor, Hernandez, & Murray ,

69 8 X 10 Color Photo ,

Game Room 2991

70 8 X 10 Color Photo ,-,

Lang Bedroom 2991 CI 71 8 X 10 Color Photo 2675 ~,

Closet, Lang Bedroom. ,-2991 -

72 8 X 10 Color Photo 2675 ,

Lang Bedroom 2991 , 73 8 X 10 Color Photo 2676 , :1 Bilbia Bedroom 2991

74 8 X 10 Color Photo 2676 :I Headboard, Bildia Bedroom 2991

-- .:


- -- _ .. ~- -- """=t

viii

r--

INDEX OF EXHIBItS

Iden. In Evd.

75 8 X 10 Color Photo 2677 Headboard, Bilbia Bedroom 2991

76 8 X 10 Color Photo 2680 Interior Closet, Bilbia Bedroom 2991

77 8 X 10 Color Photo 2680 Bedding Inside Closet, Bilbia Bedroom 2991

..... ~~""~:....:-.

78 8 X 10 Color Photo 2681 Inside Closet, Bilbia Bedroom 2991

79 8 X 10 Color Photo 2688 Inside Closet, Bilbia Bedroom 2991, (ROpe)

80 8 X 10 Color Photo 2951 Footprint,

/' ~ Bilbia Bedroom 2991 ''-,

81 Green Blanket, 3075 U in Plastic Bag

82 Telephone Bill, 2872 ,

2991 Old English Road , 83 8 X 10 Color Photo 2685 (I Hatchet

84 Pro Ked Invoices, 2622 0

CIM 1982 -, 85 Pro Ked Invoices, 2623 ,--Other Ca. Inst. 1982

86 Pro Ked Invoices, 2633 ,

Other States 1982 ,

87 Pro Ked Invoices, 2624 ·U Ca. 1983 , 88 Pro Ked Invoices, 2624 ~

Other States 1983


_.+" ••• - + + + ._. "- -.. -'- ~. - . . .. ~ .. ,-,-- ... '- ---I

ix

-~-.

INDEX Q[ EXHIBITS

Iden. In Eyd.

89 Pro Ked Invoices, 2624 Korean Purchases

90 16 X 20 Photo, Footwear Impression in Dust

91 II X 13 B/w Photo, 2642 Bedsheet Impression, Apart

92 llX13 B/w Photo, 2642 .... ~~

Bedsheet Impression, Together

93 3 X 5 Color Photo, 4691 Footwear Impression, with Ruler

94 3 X 5 Color Photo, 2696 4691 Ryen Backyard

95 Zeiss Sun Glasses 2776 "~ ."

96 Zeiss Black Leather 2777

" Case Containing U Razor Blade

97 Envelope With Pill Box 3072 ,

Containing Button , 98 8 x 10 Color Photo of ,-,

Button CI 99 Plastic Bag Containing 2862

Leather Strap .:1 100 8 x 10 Color Photo of -Black Leather Strap

101 Envelope Containing 3076 , ,

Tissue & Cigarette Butt

102 8 x 10 Color photo of 5 Tissue and Cigarette Butt

103 Green & Yellow Bag 2975 & Contents


-. ..- .. - -- ...•.. -,.- ....-~j

x

~--

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Iden. In Evd.

104 8 x 10 Color Photo of 3000 Lang & Co.

105 Pair Beige Men's Pants 3000

106 8 x 10 Color Photo of 3001 Lang & Co.

107 Grey Print Shirt 3001

108 8 x 10 Color Photo of! 3002 Lang on Horse ~ ;~~~::-~.

109 Tan Shirt 3001

110 Blue T-Shirt - 2978 Costa Rica

111 8 x 10 CoIro Photo of 2979 Vickie & Roger Lang & Hatchet

112 8 x 10 Diagram of 2816 ,CI': .•••... -,

2991 Residence n 113 Phone Bill from Bell of 3176 3176 U Pennsylvania

114 8 x 10 Diagram of 2835 ,

2991 Residence , 115 Sketch of 2 Knives 2865 ,-, 116 6 Dra .... ings of 2867 13

Shoe Patterns

117 Blue S .... eat Pants 2974 ~, ,--118 1 Pair Blue Jeans

119 1 Pair Grey T .... eed Pants 2999 , ,

8 120 1 Pair Yellow Tennis

6 Shoes

121 3 x 5 Color Photo, 2915 2968 2991 Residence -: '~',.

122 3 x 5 Photo, Interior, 2968 Garage, Store Room, 2991

~~-


M!'b~ ... . - ~ .. ~ - _ •• __ " .• • A'~ _. __ '_ •. ...

xi ~

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Iden. In Evd.

123 3 x 5 Photo, Breakfast 2916 2968 Bar, 2991

124 3 x 5 Photo, Glass Cup 2919 2968 with Spoon - Shelf, 2991

125 3 x 5 Photo, Material on 2919 2968 Top of Shelf

126 3 x 5 Photo, Front Entry 2913 2968 Door & Camera Equipment,

r~~;~.; 2991

127 3 x 5 Photo Closeup of 2915 2968 Dead Bolt Lock and Key

128 3 x 5 Photo, Dining Table 2968 In Dining Area

129 3 x 5 Photo, 2920 2968 Kerosene Lantern

130 3 x 5 Photo, Hallway 2920 2968 From Den to Kitchen ,-,

131 3 x 5 Photo, Bedroom 2920 2968 U west of Entryway

132 3 x 5 Photo, Northeast 2921 2968 ,

Wall, Bedroom West of ,

Entry

113 3 x 5 Photo, Saddle in 2921 2968 .~,

Bedroom West of Entry 0 134 3 x 5 Photo, Bedroom 2921 2968 ;:.1 west Of First Bedroom

(Middle Bedroom) -135 3 x 5 Photo, Southeast 2921 2968 ,

Corner of Middle Bedroom , 136 3 x 5 Photo, Western 2922 2968 -, Bedroom and Bed

137 3 x 5 Photo, Northeast 2923 2968 ,

Corner of Kitchen Area

138 3 x 5 Photo, Dishes in 2923 2968 Cupboard, Tumblers


xii

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Ideo. In Eyd.

139 3 x 5 Photo, Kitchen, 2923 2968 Sink & Dishwasher

140 3 x 5 Photo, Pool Table, 2924 2968 Game Room

141 3 x 5 Photo, Pool Table 2924 2968 Near Living Room, Gass Doors

142 3 x 5 Photo, Looking North 2924 ·2968 Towards Picture Window

~.~~~:,:-:;-

143 3 x 5 Photo, Display Case 2924 2968 With Ribbons

144 3 x 5 Photo, Fireplace, 2924 2968 2991 Residence

145 3 x 5 Photo, Fingerprint 2946 Lift Dated 6-7-83

/---~. 146 3 x 5 Photo, Footprint 2944 In Plastic n

147 3 x 5 Photo Fingerprint 2955 U Card of Kevin Cooper

148 3 x 5 Photo, Footprint 2938 ,

Card of Kevin Cooper ,

149 3 x 5 Photo Fingerprint 2960 0 Comparison Display 0 150 3 x 5 Photo, Footprint

:I Comparison Display

151 3 x 5 Photo, 6/8/44, 2938 4690 L Lift 32-2991 ,

152 3 x 5 Photo, Lang 2926 4690 , Bedroom Closet, 2991

153 3 x 5 Photo, 2935 4690 ·0 Shoe Impression 0

154 3 x 5 Photo, 2935 4690 Shoe Impression, 2991

155 3 x 5 Photo, Lang 4690 Bedroom


156

157

158

159

9 160

161

162

163

164

165

166

167

168

169

170

171

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

3 x 5 Photo, Lang Bedroom, Clothes , Belt

Sketch: Fingerprint Characteristics on Butcher Paper

Xerox Copies of Fingerprints, Duffy, 2991

Manilla Envelope Containing Glove

Paper Bag with Towel & T-Shirt

Belt with Silver Buckle

Manilla Envelope Containing Black Plastic Cap

Plastic Bag with White Box Lid

3 x 5 Color Photo of Milton Bulua's Shirt

Drawing of Knives by Mr. Lang

Dark Glasses from Bag 5-9

Plastic Bag Containing Blue Knapsack And Contents

Green Pants from Bag S-7

Brown T-Shirt in Paper Bag

Plastic Overlay for Exhibit 171

Diagram of 2991 Residence

Iden.

2974

2964

2976

3074

3061

3076

3077

3047

3058

3059

3059

3065

3050

3051


xiii

In Evd.

4690

,-, '-'

I , I-' o -, ,--, , .--, :I

172

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

3 x 5 Color Photo Of Incline Looking Towards Ryens

173 16 x 20 Color Photo Sliding Glass Door - Ryen

173-A Overlay for

174

175

176

177

Exhibit 173

16 x 20 Color Photo Jessica Ryen

16 x 20 Color Photo Christopher Hughes

16 x 20 Color Photo Doug Ryen Clseup

16 x 20 Color Photo Bedsheet - Ryen Master Bedroom

Iden.

3091

3203

3202

3215

3218

3381

3380

177-A Plastic Overlay, 3497 Exhibit No. 177

178 16 x 20 Color Photo 3364 Ruler on Spa Cover and Footwear ImpreSSion

179 8 X 10 Color Photo 3363 Ruler, Footwear Impression, Spa Cover

180 11 X 11 Color Photo Ryen Bedroom Doug Ryen and First Aid

181 8 X 10 Color Photo 3180 Ryen Station Wagon

182 8 X 10 Color Photo 3366 Sliding Glass Door

183

of Ryen House

8 X 10 Color Photo Ryen Home, Side View of Living Room

3367


xiv

In EVd.

4690

,-, U , , ,-, o , 1--, ,--

. " U

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Ideo.

184 8 X 10 Color Photo 3365 Ryen House, Front Door

185 8 X 10 Color photo 3365 Ryen House, Kitchen Door

186 8 X 10 Color Photo 3366 Ryen House, Garage Door

187 8 X 10 Color Photo 3367 Ryen Living Room, Looking Outside

188 8 X 10 Color Photo 3370 Jessica Ryen, Hallway

189 8 X 10 Color Photo 3368 Phone in Master Bedroom

190 8 X 10 Color Photo 3369 Doug Ryen

r--,

191 8 X 10 Color Photo 3373 A-41

192 8 X 10 Color Photo 3371 Ryen Trophy Room

193 8 X 10 Color Photo 3371 Ryen Trophy Room

194 8 X 10 Color Photo 3373 Ryen Home, Laundry Room

195 8 X 10 Color Photo 3374 Ryen Home Open Refrigerator

196 8 X 10 Color Photo 3384 Beer Can in Field

197 8 X 12 Color Photo 3374 Ryen Kitchen

198 8 X 12 Color Photo 3378 Ryen Dining Room

199 8 X 10 Color Photo 3371 Joshua's Bedroom

r--,


In Eyd.

--, xv

~~~:"

,-, 0 -, ,--, ,--, ,

200

201

202

203

INDEX_QE EXHIBITS

8 X 12 Color Photo Joshua's Bedroom

8 X 12 Color Photo Jessica's Bedroom

8 X 10 Color Photo Ryen Home, Master Bathroom

8 X 12 Color Photo Ryen Home, Sink in Master Bathroom

Iden.

3372

3371

3370

3370

204 8 X 12 Color Photo 3372 Ryen Home, Second Bathroom

205 8 X 10 Color Photo 3369 Jessica Ryen

206 Diagram, of Chemistry of Luminol, O.T.

207

208

209

210

211

212

213

214

3 X 5 Color Photo 3164 2991 Front Counter, Looking to Master Bathroom

3 X 5 Color photo 3138 2991 Master Bathroom

3 X 5 Color Photo 3160 2991 Closet, Bilbia Bedroom

3 X 5 Color photo 2991 Bedroom with Saddle

3 X 5 Color Photo 2991 Lang Bedroom

3 X 5 Color Photo 2991 Lang Bedroom, Nightstand

3 X 5 Color Photo 2991 Tools in Garage

3 X 5 Color Photo 3180 Ryen Truck


xvi

In Evd.

4690

4690

4690

4690

4690

4690

4690

4691

,-, U , , I-' o 2 :J I: .:1 .1:

10

215

216

217

218

219

220

221

222

223

224

225

226

227

228

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

3 X 5 Color Photo Box Collected and Marked J-28

16 X 20 Color Photo Doug Ryen

16 X 20 Color Photo Peggy Ryen, Jessica Ryen and Chris Hughes

8 X 10 Diagram of Ryen Residence

8 X 10 Diagram of Ryen Residence

Iden.

3153

3220

3220

323~

3234

3 X 5 Color Photo 3246 Hallway from Master Bedroom and Master Bathroom

3 X 5 Color Photo 3432 Looking from Master Bedroom to Kaster Bathroom

3 X 5 Color Photo From Master Bathroom of Pillow

8 X 10 Color Photo 3315 Doug Ryen

3 1/2 x 5 B/W Photo 3272 BarKer's Shoes

Chart - Butcher Paper, 3275 List of People at 2943

Chart - Butcher Paper, 3393 List of People at 2943

Chart - Butcher Paper 2483 List of People at 2943

Chart - Butcher Paper List of People at Ryen Home

229 Chart - Butcher Paper List of People at Ryen Home


In Evd.

4690

4691

4691

4691

4691

-=-j

xvii

r, u , , o o J L J L .:1 .=t

230

231

232

233

234

235

236

237

238

11 239

240

241

242

243

244

245

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

3 x 5 Color Photo -Spa Cover

3 x 5 Color Photo East Side of House, Front Driveway

3 x 5 Color photo Barn, Front Driveway

3 x 5 Color Photo Kitchen Door, Front Driveway

3 x 5 Color Photo Garage Door

3 x 5 Color Photo Piece of Road in Driveway

3 x 5 Color Photo M.A.S.T. III Box, ATS

3 x 5 Color photo Anti-shock Trouser

Run Report, 6-5-83 Xerox Copy

3 x 5 Color Photo East Side of Ryen House

3 x 5 Color Photo Backyard - 2943

3 x 5 Color Photo Back of Garage

3 x 5 Color Photo Backyard



3 x 5 Color Photo East Side

Iden.

3447

3302

3302

3302

3302

3303

3334

3334

3325

3409

3409

3409

3409

3409

3409

3409


xviii

In EVd.

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

.. ,-, U , , J~' o ,:I -:I L ·LI ,


xxi

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Ideo. 10 Evd.

265 3 x 5 Color Photo 3420 A-44

266 3 x 5 Color Photo 3420 4691 A-45

267 3 x 5 Color Photo 3420 4691 A-46

268 3 x 5 Color Photo 3420 4691 A-47

"~~. ~.....--'~'Il:.~ .... ~..::.;-

269 3 x 5 Color Photo 3420 4691 A-48

270 3 x 5 Color Photo 3420 4691 A-51

271 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 A-52

272 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 A-53

273 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 n A-55 U

274 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 , A-57

275 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 ,

A-58 I-' 276 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 0

A-60

277 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 :I A-61 L

278 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 ~, A-52 ,-.-

279 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 A-63 ·c

280 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 0 A-64

281 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 A-65

-"

COKPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

'". _:_ ...... ~ ••• _ ••• _ _~. 0":6 __ "--"._ •••• __ •

' . ..,.." xxii

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Ideo. 10 Evd.

282 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 A-66

283 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 A-67

284 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 A-68

285 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 A-69 ··-.·~.~":'T_

286 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 A-70

287 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 A-72

288 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 A-74

289 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691

/"-~"

A-76 ,-, 290 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 U A-77

291 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 ,

A-7a , 292 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691

1.-' A-80

293 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 0 A-81 J .

294 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 '-A-84

295 3 x 5 Color Photo 3421 4691 -:, A-85 C

296 3 x 5 Color Photo 4691 -, A-86 ,

297 3 x 5 Color Photo 3702 4691 A-a7

~ , 298 3 x 5 Color Photo 4691 A-8a

/",


299

300

301

302

303

304

305

306

307

308

309

12 400

401

402

403

404

405

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

3 x 5 Color Photo A-89







3 x 5 Color Photo A-lOO

3 x 5 Color Photo A-lOl

3 x 5 Color Photo A-l02

3 x 5 Color Photo T--l

3 x 5 Color Photo T-3


3 x 5 Color Photo T-S

3 x 5 Color Photo A-9l



Ideo.

3679

3385

3489

3461

3461

3461


xxiii

10 Eyd.

4691 I 4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

·4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

"-, U

I , I-' o -, ,--~I ,-.-

·0 [J

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Ideo.

406 3 x 5 Color Photo 3496 T-9

407 3 x 5 Color Photo T-I0

408 3 x 5 Color Photo T-ll

409 3 x 5 Color Photo 3496 T-12

410 3 x 5 Color Photo 3676 T-13

411 3 x 5 Color Photo 3449 T-14

412 3 x 5 Color Photo T-15

413 3 x 5 Color Photo 3451 T-16

414 3 x 5 Color Photo 3424 U-l

415 3 x 5 Color Photo 3424 U-3







422 3 x 5 Color Photo 3424 U-10


In Eyd.

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4691

4692

4692

4692

4692

4692

4692

4692

4692

4692

4692

-==-j

xxiv

~!';!':..:.,.:..-; ~ '!""'."-~~,,""r~ ___

I-' U , , ,-, 0 :J L ~, ,-.-

·0 :t

.. '- -- -- ~ .. _ .. _---._._--_ .. -... -... - ~ . -_. - - ~ ~." - --'-' -, .. ~,,- ........ ---~ ~ ... - .... 1 xxv

-

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Ideo. In Eyd.

423 3 x 5 Color Photo 3424 4692 U-11

424 3 x 5 Color Photo 3424 4692 U-13

425 3 x 5 Color Photo 3424 4692 U-14

426 3 x 5 Color Photo 3424 4692 U-15 ~~v

427 3 x 5 Color Photo 3424 4692 U-16

428 3 x 5 Color Photo 3424 4692 U-17

429 3 x 5 Color Photo 3425 4692 W-l

13 430 3 x 5 Color Photo 3425 4692

/, ... --.., W-2 ..: ....... ,""~,~ -

431 3 5 Color Photo 3425 4692 ,-,

x U W-3

431-A 3 x 5 Color Photo 3476 4692 I W-5 ,

432 3 x 5 Color Photo 3425 4692 I-' W-6

432-A 3 x 5 Color Photo 3425 4692 0 W-4

,:.I 433 3 x 5 Color- Photo 3425 4692 W-7 -

434 3 x 5 Color Photo 3425 4692 -,

W-8 .:1 435 3 x 5 Color Photo 3425 4692 . ,-,

W-9 U 436 3 x 5 Color Photo 3425 ':,'.

W-I0

437 3 x 5 Color Photo 3425 W-ll

COY.PUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

~ .,.-.. ---~ .... --- ~.~.

-, xxvi

,~

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Ideo. 10 Eyd.

438 3 x 5 Color Photo 3425 4692 W-12

439 3 x 5 Color Photo 3426 W-13

440 3 x 5 Color Photo 3426 W-14

441 3 x 5 Color Photo 3426 4692 W-15 ;~ .. ';"":'"

442 3 x 5 Color Photo 3426 W-16

443 3 x 5 Color Photo 3426 W-17

445 3 x 5 Color Photo 3426 W-l6

446 3 x 5 Color Photo 3426 .. : "., '

~~. W-19 n

447 3 x 5 Color Photo 3426 U W-20

448 3 x 5 Color Photo 3426 ,

W-21 , 449 3 x 5 Color Photo 3426 ,-,

A-21

450 3 x 5 Color Photo 3426 0 W-23 2 451 3x 5 Color Photo 3426 W-24

452 3 x 5 Color Photo 3426 -,

W-2~ .:1 453 3 x 5 Color Photo 3426 ,

W-26 , 454 3 x 5 Color Photo 3422 4692

1-1

455 3 x 5 Color Photo 3422 4692 1-2

/~,


xxvii

INDEX QF EXHIBITS

Iden. In Evd.

I 456 3 x 5 Color Photo 3422 4692 1-3

457 3 x 5 Color Photo 3422 4692 1-5

458 3 x 5 Color Photo 3422 4692 1-6

459 3 x 5 Color Photo 3422 4692 E-3 i-~~;C:

460 3 x 5 Color Photo 3422 4692 M-4

461 3 x 5 Color Photo 3422 4692 M-5

462 3 x 5 Color Photo 3422 4692 B-6

463 3 x 5 Color Photo 3422 4692 B-5

464 3 x 5 Color Photo 3428 ,-,

R-2 U 465 3 x 5 Color Photo 3428 4692 ,

R-3 , 466 3 x 5 Color Photo 3428 4692

l~' R-4

467 3 x 5 Color Photo 3428 0 R-10 J

468 3 x 5 Color Photo 3428 t: R-l

469 3 x 5 Color Photo 3428 -, R-:12 J

470 3 x 5 Color Photo 3428 4692 --:I R-13

471 3 x 5 Color Photo 3385 4692 L

LFP-1

472 3 x 5 Color Photo 3385 4692 LFP-2

/~'


xxviii

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Iden. In Evd.

473 3 x 5 Color Photo 3385 4692 LFP-3

474 3 x 5 Color Photo 3385 4692 LFP-4

475 3 x 5 Color Photo 3385 4692 LFP-5

476 3 x 5 Color Photo 3385 4692 LFP-6

'"lD~;.~

477 8 x 10 Color Photo 3484 A-59

478 8 x 10 Color Photo 3358 JR-5, Head

479 8 x 10 Color Photo 3354 JR- 2, Throat

480 8 x 10 Color Photo 3355 - .-.~ .-,,' ~ .. ;. ~ JR-7, Ear and Neck r,

481 8 x 10 Color Photo 3355 U JR-3, Back

482 16 x 20 Color Photo 3349 I Ryen Dresser & Bed Area

, 483 Xerox Copy of Lifts 3387 I-'

from Ryen Residence by 0 Deputy Punter~

484 8 x 10 Color Photo 3471 J Bilbia Bedroom Closet L

485 8 x 10 Color Photo 3471 :I Bilbia Bedroom Closet

486 8 x 10 Color Photo 3471 .J Bilbia Bedroom Headboard .:1

487 Bedsheet, Ryen 3504 J Master Bedroom :

488 3 x 5 Color Photo 3470 4692 . . 1.0 • 113

CQl-1PUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

xxix

INDEX Of EXHIBITS

Ideo. In Evd.

489 3 x 5 Color Photo 3470 4692 1.0. 121

490 3 x 5 Color Photo 3524 4692 Stockwell Shoes

14 491 Chart- Butcher Paper

Time Line

492 2943 Notes

493 2943 Notes - 3756 ~.;i~;

Schechter

494 2943 Master Bedroom, DCS 3587

495 Pink Skip - A Series 3583

496 Pink Slip - J Series 3584

497 Pink Slip - Autopsy's 3584

,~ 498 Drawing of DCS Shoe

499 Drawing - Luminol 4316 ,-, U sao Evidence Collection 3561

Summary , 501 Brown Paper Bag, ,

Empty ,-, 15 502 3 x 5 Color Photo 3676 4692 CI T-2

503 8 x 10 Chart - -:, Ryen Home ,--504 8 x 10 Black & White Photo -, Of South Wall

505 8 x 10 Black & White Photo ,J Closeup of South Wall

·LI 506 8 x 10 Black & White Photo , Bottom Sheet

507 8 x 10 Black & White Photo Top Sheet

/~

CO~PUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

508 8 x 10 Black & White Photo Comforter

509 8 x 10 Black & White Photo Closeup - Bottom Sheet

510 . DCS Notes, T-Series

Iden.

3878

511 3 x 5 Black and White Photo 3780 Sole Impression - Coronado

512

513

514

515

516

517

·518

519

520

521

523

524

525

Diagram - DCS 7-5-83 42376 A-5 Bottom

Diagram - 42376, A-5 Top

Diagram - 42376, A-IO

Diagram - 42376, A-8

8 x 10 Color photo Old English Road

8 x 10 Color Photo Hatchet

Latent Prints - Roper, Ryen Residence

Latent Prints - Roper, Lease Residence

Latent Prints - Roper, Ryen Vehicle

8 x 10 Color Photo Pickup Truck, English Road

8 x 10 Color Photo of Nick in Fence

8 x 10 Color Photo of Relationship of Truck to

Plastic Model -Doug Ryen

3780

3780

3780

3780

3798

3798

3804

3806

3807

3794

3799

3800

3824

COHPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

xxx

In Eyd.

4169

: ,-, U , , .--, o --, c -, :I

5

xxxi

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

l.QfD. In Eyd.

f 526 Plastic Model - 3871 4169 Peggy Ryen

527 Plastic Model - 3896 4169 Jessica Ryen

528 Plastic Model - 3923 4169 Christopher Hughes

531 Buck Knife Pamphlet 4137

532 3 x 5 Color Photo 4126 4693 ~. '-~~-.~~::

Buck Knives

533 Death Certificate 3958 4170 Douglas Ryen

534 Death Certificate 3959 4170 Peggy Ryen

535 Death Certificate 3960 4170 ----" Jessica Ryen

536 Death Certificate 3961 4170 rl Christopher Hughes U 537 Case Knife 4107

538 Knife Catalog I , 539 3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife I-' Buck U10

540 3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife CI Buck UIO FG

~I 541 3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife ,-

Buck UIO FG -542 3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife J

Buck tl12 ,J 543 3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife ,,-

Buck 1319 CI

544 3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife Buck t442

545 3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife Buck ISOO

'~,


INDEX or EXHIBITS

546 3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife Buck 1503

547 3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife Buck Classic III, Model 513

548

549

550

55i

552

553

554

555

556

557

558

559

560

3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife Buck - 1102 Woodsman

3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife Buck - 1118 Personal

3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife Buck - 1119 Special

3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife Buck - 1121 Fisherman

3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife Buck - 1123 Lake Mate

3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife Buck - 1123 Lake Mate

3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife Explorer Fillet

3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife Bulau Knife

3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife Case Knife

3 x 5 Color Photo - Knife Machete

3 x 5 Color Photo -Kitchen Knives



561 Butcher Paper -Stab Wound Chart

562 Butcher Paper Chart -Final position

Iden.

4135

4135

4135

4135

4135

4135

4135

4120

4129


In Evd.

a.;-'l

xxxii

r, u , , .~,

o -, ,---, :I -, ,

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Ideo.

563 Butcher Paper Chart -Type of Wounds

564 Butcher Paper Chart - 4038 Amount of Bleeding

565 3 x 5 Color Photo 4032 Doug - Left Arm

566 3 x 5 Color Photo 4032 Peggy - Left Hand

567 3 x 5 Color Photo 4032 Jessica - Right Hand

568 3 x 5 Color Photo 4032 Jessica - Right Forearm

569 8 x 10 Black & Khite Photo 4207 Aerial of St. Anthony's

570 8 x 10 Black & White Photo 4205 '--'-', Aerial of St. Anthony's

\ . 571 8 x 10 Black & White Photo 4178

Aerial of St. Anthony's

572 8 x 10 Color Photo 4191 Driver's Seat -Ryen Station Wagon

573 8 x 10 Color Photo 4208 Ryen Car Closeup -Driver-s Seat

574 8 x 10 Color Photo 4209 Ryen Car - Driver's Seat Floor

575 8 x 10 Color Photo 4209 Ryen Car -Front Passenger Floor

576 8 x 10 Color Photo 4209 Driver Door -Ryen Station Wagon

577 8 x 10 Color Photo 4209 c • Ryen Car Seatbelt

Housing


10 Eyd.

4110

4110

4110

4110

"-::;;;-a xxxiii

.~~~~~:

I-' U , , ,--, a :J L --, J ·0 0

578

579

580-A

580-B

581

582

583

584 "-

585

586

587

588

589

590

590-A

591

592

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

3 x 5 Color Photo Second Seat -Ryen Car

Xerox Prints - Duffy Ryen Vehicle

8 x 10 Map of Long Beach

8 x 10 Map of Long Beach

8 X 10 Sketch -Sister James

White Box Containing Tobacco, J-28

White Box Containing Tobacco

White Envelope Containing Round Tin Can of Tobacco

8 x 10 Color Photo Hatchet in Grass

3 x 5 Color Photo Seat - Ryen Car

3 x 5 Color Photo Ryen Car, Middle seat

3 x 5 Color Photo Ryen Car, Middle Seat

Chart - Blood Profile Victims & Defendant

Chart - Electrophoresis

Plastic Overlay For Exhibit No. 590

Chart EAP Banding Pattern

Chart - Phisiological Fluids from Ryen Home

Ideo.

4210

4206

4195

4195

4181

4290

4288

4152

4287

4335

4348

4557

4562

4425


xxxiv

10 Evd.

4692

..

" U 4692

, , 4692 ,-, 4692 0 -, ,--

J .::1 ·0 .J

-=:---~

XXXV

~.

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Ideo. In EVd.

593 Chart - Phisiologica1 4464 Fluids from Lease Bome

594 Chart - Phisiologica1 4469 Fluids from Ryen Car

595 Chart - Butcher Paper 4374 EAP Patterns

596 Chart - Blood types 4445 of Other Parties

597 3 x 5 Black & white 4443 4692 ~'~~~~ ... >

Amount of Sample A-41

598 Chart - Butcher Paper 4503 Time Lines

599 Group II Run 1162 - 4539 Copy

600 Group II Run 1163 - 4539 Copy

._,

" 601 Group I Run 1258

602 5 x 7 Black & White Photo U EsD Run 1258 f

603 5 x 7 Black & White Photo 4631 , PGM Run 1263

604 5 x 7 Black & white Photo 4631 0 PGM Run 1255 0

605 5 x 7 Black & White Photo 4631 J PGM Run 1 236 L 606 5 x 7 Black & White Photo 4631

PGM Run 1 237 U 607 5 x 7 Black. & white Photo 4631 . ,

PGM Run 1 255

608 5 x 7 Black. & White Photo 4631 ." PGM Run 1259 U

609 5 x 7 Black & White Photo 4631 PGM Run 1 260


INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Iden.

610 5 x 7 Black & White Photo 4631 PGM Run t 261

611 Chart - Butcher Paper 4591 Enzyme Life Span

612 Chart - Butcher Paper 4616 Exhausted Items

613 Police Reports 4697

/-_ ...... , '-

, 0" ....


....

In Evd.

·" xxxvi

. ,-, U , , ,-, 0 ~, ,--U , , ,

1

\

1

2

3

4

5

4626

SAN DIEGO. CALIFORNIA. MONPAY. DECE~mER 10. 1984 9:35 A.M ..

--00000-

THE COURT: Good morning.

Defendant, all counsel are here. Mr. Negus, Mr.

6 Gregonis. Proceed.

7

8

9

DANIEL J. GREGONIS,

called as a witness on behalf of the People, having been

10 previously duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified further

11 as follows:

12

13 CROSS EXAfolINATION (Resumed)

14 BY MR. NEGUS:

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

Q. Mr. Gregonis, last spring, the spring of 184

sometime, did I make a request that you reanalyze Josh Ryenls

blood?

A. Yes, you did.

Q. And sometime that last spring, did you do that?

A. Yes, l did.

Q. Did you get the same result that you got when you

analyzed it the first time back in June?

A. No, I did not.

O. What -- which was the particular enzyme that you

retested?

A. Yes. It is PGM.

O. Okay. And according to the results that you got 1n

28 the spring when you retested it, it would make Josh Ryen a 2


r, u , , ,-., o -., ,--U , .:1 L

-1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 ,~, ,

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4627

instead of a 2-1.

A. That is correct, yes.

Q. These -- one of the use, one of the uses of

genetics markers is the assumption that they will not change

over time. That is, somebody will be a 2-1 for his whole life:

is that correct?

A. That is true, yes.

Q. However, sometimes the -- after blood is taken, as

it were, either by what Mr. Kochis was referring to as an EDTA

sample, or any other, any other form of sample, the blood will

change and it will look like a type that it isn't; is that

right?

A. Yes. It can, yes.

Q. And unless you have a skilled analyst who knows

what to look for, you might end up having somebody COme in and

say that particular sample is a type 2 when in fact it is 2-1.

A. If the sample hasn't degraded to such pOint where

that would happen, regardless of the skill of the analyst, yes.

Q. Well, in this particular case, if you had gotten

that 2 result from Josh back in, back in June, you still would

have been able to figure out that something was fishy; isn't

that correct?


Q. Because it would be biologically impossible for

Josh Ryen to be a 2-2.


Q. NOW, are there such a thing as a -- as what are

called hidden variations in the field of serology?

cm:PUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

rl U , , o o ,:1 -U , . =, .J

1

2

3

A.

Q.

A.

4628

Yes, there is.

What is a hidden variation?

Hidden variations on the systems that we may run,

4 we may break it down to say three types. On another system,

5 perhaps more complicated system, you may be able to break that

6 down to ten types. So, you are actually splitting each of those

7 three into more groups.

8 Q. Well. okay. When you have one of these, of these

9 enzymes, let's just take PGM for a moment, and you were to have

10 something that you would call under the most sophisticated of

11 PGM typings that you do these days, the subtyping isoelectric

12 focusing, that you were to call that a 2+, basically that would

13 be one particular chemical: is that right?

14 All -- everybody who has a 2+ is going to have a

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

·24

25

26

certain combination of amino acids and other chemicals put

together and it is going to be one chemical, chemical 2+.

A. As far as we know now, yes.

Q. You know people that deal with that kind of stuff

do all kinds of studies and they try and map out what these

rather complex chemicals are: is that right?

A. That is true.

Q. 2- would be another chemical: is that right?

A. That is true.

Q. NOw, on the tests that you were doing on PGM up

until, up until last spring, spring of '84, you basically called

a 2+ and a 2- by the same name because -- not because there

27 weren't two chemicals involved, but because you couldn't tell

28 them apart. Is that right?

COfolPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

-,.11 '".'. ~: .. ,-, U

I I

I-' o :I L LI ,

··LI . ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

/-" 14

'-15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4629

A. On the system I was using, that is correct.

Q. Do these hidden variations, do these hidden

variations ever, you know, affect the accuracy or the

reliability of typing calls?

A. It is possible they could, yes.

Q. Do you recall my asking you that same question when

we were having evidence about the reliability of these tests

before you had done the tests on Josh's blood and your

answering, "The hidden variations cannot affect the reliability

and accuracy of typing calls."?

A. No, I do not.

MR. NEGUS: Can I read, your Honor -- I -- let's see.

LOOKS like Volume XIV, Page 1111, Lines 11 through 20.

MR.

MR.

MR.

THE

MR.

KOCHIS: I need a moment, your Honor. lOll?

NEGUS: Four lis in a row. 1, 1, 1, l.

KOCHIS: I have it.

COURT: Go ahead.

NEGUS: (Reading)

"Question: Which of the enzyme systems that you

have tested have these hidden variationss?

"Answer: The two that I can have right now

well, actually three. One is haptoglobin, another

one is the Peptidase A, and another one would be

the PGM.

"Question: Can those -- the existence of those

hidden variations also affect the accuracy and

reliability of your typing because of those

enzymes?

cm1PUTERI ZED TRANSCRIPT

<',-, U , , o (J

-:1 ,--U , 5

2 1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 ,~

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4630

-Answer: No, sir.-

Q. One of the ways -- in the case of -- in the case of

Josh's blood, when you retested it in late spring of -- that

was -- the request for you to retype Josh's blood was made

during the hearing which was held in Ontario in the last week,

last two weeks of April~ is that right?

A. That sounds about right, yes.

Q. And so if that last testimony was April 23rd your

testing of Josh's blood would have been after that: is that

right?

A. That is true.

Q. NOw, when you -- when you got essentially the wrong

answer on Josh's blood well, first of all, the fact that I

asked you to do that, did that make you suspect that something

was up on that particular sample?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. SO, after you got the wrong result did you do a

series of tests with that sample to try and find out why?

A. I don't believe it was with that sample, it was

with another sample. But I did try to find out why.

Q. What you did was you got a, sometime or other, both

sides in this case got a fresh sample of Josh's blood in order

to do some more tests on: is that right?


Q. Then using that fresh sample of Josh's blood, you

attempted to find out, you know, why you got the wrong answer.

A. That is true.

Q. Now, did you find out why?


'-1 U

I , o o :I L LI ,

,1-.0 '--

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

,~, 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

2S

26

27

28

,~

4631

A. It is explainable, yes.

o. l'lhy did that happen?

A. Basically, in the PGM enzyme there are certain

chemicals, if you will. that because of their nature and because

their makeup, degrade or deactivate quicker than the others.

And in this particular case one of those chemicals, what's

called a 1- degraded faster than what's called the 2+.

O. SO, it ended up looking -- what happened was that

as far as the sensitivity of your test is concerned, the 1-

essentially just disappeared first; is that right?

A. Relative to the 2+, yes.

Q. So, it disappeared. So, at least in the spring of

'84 when you retested your original sample of Josh's blood, the

1 had disappeared and the 2 was still there.

A. That essentially is correct, yes.

O. Now, just, without -- without having the benefit of

knowing the genetic profiles of Josh's parents, and without sort

of having the benefit of having tested that particular sample at

an earlier time and gotten a different result, would there be

any way, just by looking at the test results that you got of

your tests of Josh's blood in the spring of '84, to tell that

you had the wrong result?

A. Not that I could see, no.

O. Showing you a series of photographs which have been

marked for identification as Exhibits 603 through 610 inclusive,

a series of five by seven enlargements of your Polaroid pictures

of some PGM runs.

Are these essentially photographs of photographs of


n u , , ,-, a :J L U

, , , ,

1

4632

1 the PGM runs that you were doing in June of 1983 on this case?

2

3

A.

o. Yes, they are.

You indicated that you couldn't be sure as to A-41

4 from the photograph that was taken. That is, you couldn't make

5 a call off the photograph as to, as to that would be certain as

6 to A-41 is: is that correct?

7

8

9

A. I believe I did, yes.

o. Now, as far as, as far as the photographs, are

those -- there are several of those photographs there from which

10 you can't make reliable typing call of the PGM's.

11 A. Well. there was photographs where you can't see all

12 the PGM, that is correct.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

Q. One of the things you try and do when you are --

when you are doing these runs, in order to sort of insure the

reliability of them. is to make sure that your standards come

out: is that right?


Q. And another thing you do is to try and check for

any sort of unusual things that wouldn't fit normally -- your

normal experience and knowledge of the way the biochemistry of

these particular tests that you are doing work -- is that right?


O. with respect to the standards on those tests, were

you getting were you having problems having your standards,

that is, known blood samples that you had taken from people

inside the lab or from commercially available samples, to come

out?

A. On the photographs?


'-1 U , , o o ~I ,--

L' , , I-' ,0

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

,~ 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4633

Q. Yes.

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Were you having some problems having them come out

on the plate, too?

A. Occasionally, yes.

Q. When you do the 2-1, one of the advantages, I

suppose, in the multisystem approach to doing this particular

test, is that you can compare the results that you get with

Group I, with esterase 0, with the results you get with PGM; is

that correct?


Q. Basically there's more. Or PGM in human blood will

get a stronger reaction than esterase D; is that correct?

A. In general, yes.

Q. In order to make the PGM visible, so that you can

look at the patterns and try to interpret them, one of the

chemicals that you use in the chemical reaction -- I forget, you

don't like one of them, staining or dying.

Which do you prefer to call it?

A. Staining.

Q. Staining. In the chemical reaction of making the

different patterns visible through staining, one of the

chemicals that you have to use is called G6PDi is that right?

A. That is true yes.

Q. G6PD is in fact one -- it is also in a slightly

different form -- one of the chemical markers that is used in

human blood; is that right?

A. It is an enzyme that is -- yes.


,-, U , , o o :J L U , ·0 .::.1

1

2

3

.. 5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 ~

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

/~,

4634

Q. And it is the least stable of the ones that we had

in the chart that are commonly done by forensic serologists; is

that right?

A. with the exception of probably Gc, I'd say, yes •

Q. Don't we have the G6PD lasting only less than a

week, Gc two to four weeks, something like that?

A. I don't remember the chart. I think in typing.

G6PD is going to last probably the same amount of time as Gc.

Q. But still relatively short.

A. That is true.

Q. And as far as the G6PD use, as in the process of

making the stains visible, it likewise will lose its potency, as

it w~re, in a relatively short period of time; is that right?

A. I suppose it can, yes.

Q. And, well, didn't it do that in June of '83, the

G6PD that you were using?

A. Well, there was indications that it might have, I

don't know. I'm not sure whether it did or did not.

Q. You got a whole series of runs where the results of

the reaction, after the stain, was a lot weaker than would have

been expected if you had been using, you know, fresh stains and

getting a normal type reaction; isn't that correct?

A. That is .true, yes.

Q. And as you were doing a lot of what turned out to

be victims blood from the Ryen homicide, which had been

preserved very quickly after it had been shed, you knew you had

fresh stains; is that right?

A. That is the assumption that I made. yes.


.'n U , , o o ;:1 -,-J

" u

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 ~

15

16

17

18

19

20 2

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

/--~

4635

O. All the information that you had was that the blood

that you found in the Ryen house from the victims was shed

during the attack on June the 4th or 5th, 1983, wasn't just sort 1 of like around the house for some months before that.

A. That is true.

O. And these stains, you were having problems getting

them to corne out.

A. On the PGM. Again, they weren't as strong as I

would expect. :'i!,~:';"

Q. And likewise the EsD, however. run at the same

time, were the stains as strong as you'd expect?

A. They were fairly strong, yes.

O. won't that then be a strong indication that you got

a G6PD problem?

A. That's one of the possibilities, yes.

Q. Now, when we are talking about it as one of the

possibilities. At the time you didn't think of that, right?

A. I don't believe I did, no.

O. So, even though you .ere getting, over a period of

time, weak PGM results which made it so that your photographs at

least in part are unreadable, you didn't do anything to try and

correct the situation: is that right?

A. Not at the time, no.

O. Was that negligence?

A. I believe not, sir.

O. Would a reasonably competent serologist, seeing

that he wasn't getting strong enough stains to photograph, and

recognizing a rather COfurnon G6PD, have just changed his G6PD?

COr,PUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

" U , , ,-, o :J L ,-:I , ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

~-, 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4636

A. If he was concerned more about the photographs than

reading the plates, period, I suppose he would have, yes.

O. Well, it is not just photographs that is involved,

it's -- I mean, it also affects how easy and how accurately you

can read the plates. True?

A. To some extent it can, yes.

O. Did you change your G6PD before you did Josh's PGM?

A. No, I did not. Doesn't appear to.

O. If you have a problem with PGM, like you had with

Josh in the spring, is there going to be a period of time

between when you can see both of them, both the 2 and the 1, and

the time when you can see the 2 but you can't see the 1, but

when the 1 is going to sort of progressively weaken.

That is, if you did have a PGM test on Josh's blood

every week for 52 weeks you would see first relatively strong 2,

and slightly weaker 1, then the 1 would sort or gradually

disappear: is that correct?

A. It would disappear with Josh's blood. It would

disappear at a faster rate than the 2.

O. So, you'd be able to see the 2 linger on?

A. Well, the 1 gradually disappeared. If you took

these tests over once a week for a year, probably, yes.

O. And you did something similar to that on your

testing; is that not correct?

A. Yes, I did.

O. If you had bad G6PD, that is, a weaker G6PD than 1s

optimal, would that make the 1 disappear quicker?

A. Well. in relative terms, if both the 2 and the 1


',;;," U

I I ,-,

o -, ,--,-,3 .:1 ,L

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 .--.~

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4637

are not as strong as optimal, if you will, then you wouldn ' t

pick the 1 up as quick.

Q. So you -- the situation that you got in the late

spring of '84, where you had, where you could see the 2 you

couldn't see the 1, would have happened sooner if you were

continuing to use the bad G6PD?

A. It may have, yes.

Q. Now, as far as A-41 is concerned, you don't know

from your testing whether that was a PGM 1+ or 1- than 1+1-, or

whatever; is that correct?


Q. By the way, the 1+1- business, if a person is a

1+1+, if both his parents gave him, or her, a 1+ allele, then

there's no way for a person, for that change to a 1-; is that

right?

A. That is correct.

Q. There are going to be a 1+1+ for evermore, doesn't

sort of switch back and forth.

A. That is correct.

Q. Basically, then, are the are both the -- are

both the 2- and the 1-, do they go -- do they disappear faster

than the 1+ and the 2+?

A. In general they do, yes.

Q. Josh appears to be a particularly accelerated case,

is that right?

A. Very much so, yes.

Q. NOW, when you looked at A-41, the PGM results off

the plate, was it weak?


'" U I ,

,-, o ~I ,--1-:; -, :I

1

1

2

A.

Q.

4638

Yes, it was.

And you saw banding that would be consistent with

3 either a 1+, 1+1-, or 1-, right?

.. 5

A.

Q.

That is true, yes •

Given the -- if let's just assume that the G6PD

6 was the problem, and you had a weak result to begin with, and

7 that was a 1+.

8 Is it possible that because of the weakness of your

9

10

stain you could have missed a weak 2-?

A. If it was a case like Josh's, with a very

11 accelerated degradation, yes.

12 Q. In general, in -- you testified that basically in

13 the scientific community that the types of tests that you

14

15

16

performed are generally accepted as reliable1 is that correct?


Q. NOW, in the scientific literature, is it also

17 recognized, however, that, that there can be problems and errors

18 made in interpretation of these results?

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

A. It is acknowledged, yes.

Q. And is like one of the prime causes that is adduced

for that the inexperience or ignorance, or both, of the

interpreter?

A. It can be, yes.

Q. In the scientific community there's one particular

scientist that, as it were, made a career about going around

saying that these tests are unreliable1 is that right?

A. Essentially, yes, he has.

Q. And there's -- there's reason to believe that this


" o , ,--,-:I .lj . J

·~.

1

2

3

.. 5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

/~, 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4639

particular individual, for example, has a personal quarrel with

~r. -- with Mr. ~raxell, and that perhaps is one of the reasons

why he's doing that; is that correct?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q.' However, there's been in various courts, the

scientific community has had at various times to respond to this

individual's charges; is that right?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. And one of the persons who has sort of been in the

forefront of responding to those charges on behalf of the

scientific community is Dr. Sensabaugh?


Q. Dr. Sensabaugh has made the pOint in responding to

those particular charges that what's involved in some of the

incorrect results that Dr. Grunbaum --

Who is the critic, by the way, is that right?


Q. -- that Dr. Grunbaum has cited is not so much that

the techniques themselves are unreliable, but that people doing

the interpretation have been ignorant of the basic biochemistry

involved?

MR. KOCHIS: Well, your Honor, I'm going to object. This

is beyond the scope of the direct. It's not relevant. It's

certainly calling for hearsay. There is no foundation that he's

relying on this specific exchange between arguments in other

courts.

THE COURT: On the relevancy question --

MR. NEGUS: Well, relevancy goes to the reliability of


I

. -. rl U

I I

" CI J L C .J

5

~.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 /,..---.,

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

the test. In the scope, Mr. Gregonis was asked about --

THE COURT: All right. On the hearsay, Mr. Negus.

MR. NEGUS: The -- the issue of acceptance in the

scientific community is by nature a hearsay -- every -- 11m

sure

4640

THE COURT: That's not an issue here, sir, acceptance in

the scientific --

1'1R. NEGUS: Yes, it is. Mr. Kochis is, the -- these

tests are accepted as reliable in the scientific community. I'm

trying to bring out that they are accepted with the exception

that you don't have a biochemically ignorant analyst.

THE COURT: Try and do it without all the conversation.

Overruled. Go ahead.

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. In response, then, Dr. Sensabaugh has essentially

made that point, is that not correct, that it's really important

not to mistake unreliable tests for ignorant operators?

A. That's only part of his reply, yes.

Q. NOW, in the areas of biochemistry that are

involved, one of the things that Dr. Sensabaugh has specified

over and over again is that the operator has to be aware of the

differences between changes that take place when a sample is

moist as opposed to ~hen it's dry; is that right?

A. That's one of the things he points out, yes.

Q. And he has. published in several different places

charts, lists, that are available to people in the scientific

community, including yourself, as to what the differences are

between those two changes, types of changes; is that right?

cm~PUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

n u , , o o J L ,-J

6

1

2

3

4

A.

o.

4641

I've seen some of his publications. Yes, he has.

And basically changes that will -- when we're

talking about changes, we're talking about things which will

make the patterns that you see on the plate appear differently

5 than the pattern that the analyst is expecting for a certain

6 enzyme 1 is that right?

7

8

9

10

11


o. In the case of Josh's blood having a 2 look like an

A -- or a 2-1 look like a 2?


o. And there's numerous other variations on the same

12 thing; is that right?

13

14

15

16

A. There can be, yes.

o. Anyways, with wet changes and dry changes, wet

changes could have the effect of having a 2-1 change in one

direction towards one particular enzyme and a dry could have it

17 changes towards another; is that right?

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

A. Not in general, no. As far as --

I don't know what you're getting at specifically,

Mr. Negus.

Q. Well, do wet and dry changes -- what's the point

what's the point in distinguishing, in making a big deal with

the -difference between wet and dry changes?

A. Because there is different chemical reactions that

occur during what would be called wet and what would be called

26 dry.

27 Q. And do those different chemicals reactions result

28 in different appearances, different types of changes on the


t

.. " U

I , o u -I ,--,e --I -

2

4642

1 plate?

2 A. They can, yes.

3 Q. When you were doing the tests involved in this

4 particular case, were you of the opinion then that the only

5 difference between a wet and a dry change was the speed at which

6 the sample degredation occurred?

7

8

9

10

A.

Q.

Not entirely, but that was part of my opinion, yes.

Well, have you since learned that there's more

involved than just speed?

A. I've learned that at least according to studies the

11 wet state reactions, for instance, don't occur to any great

12 extent in the dry state and vice versa.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

2S

26

Q. So, the difference is not the speed of degredation?

A. Mostly, yes.

Q. Okay. And when you -- do you recall at the hearing

last April testifying that the difference was the speed of

degredation?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So you have lessened your ignorance in that

particular respect since then; is that right?

MR. KOCHIS: Objection. It's argumentative.

THE COURT: sustained.

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. You've learned something since then1 is that right?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Now, the difference -- some of the different types

27 of changes that can result, all of these changes are changes in

28 what chemical you're dealing with; is that right?


>,-, U

I I

I-' CI .vI ,--,-

.J ·CI .0

,~

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 ~

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24 1

25

26

27

28

4643

A. They are changes in the particular enzyme or serum

protein that you're looking at, right, yes.

Q. So, if you had a -- if you had a PGM 2+, the

different types of changes that we're talking about result in a

different chemical, is that so? Is not -- it's not the same

chemical that you had with a2+ right?

A. A slightly different chemical, yes.

Q. Sometimes those changes result in a difference in

the electrical charges, sometimes they don It?

A. That is true.

Q. If they don't, it doesn't make any difference?

A. That is true.

Q. If it does, it does make ·a difference or it can,

right?

A. It can. Most of the time it does not.

Q. 'But you have to be able to recognize them in order

to tell whether it's making a big difference or not?

A. It helps, yes.

Q. At the time that you were doing the testing in this

particular case, did you believe that as far as PGM was

concerned there was no difference between the wet and the dry

changes except the rate at which the change occurred?

A. Again, I don't -- I don't know at this point. I

believe I would have, yes.

Q. And that's not true?

A. No, it isnlt.

Q. During that -- Well, during that period of time the

different types of changes that go on can have the result either


..J ·CI .J

,~

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

~, 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4644

of making the -- making one of these patterns move in the

direction of the cathode or the anode, depending upon which

enzyme you're talking about and which type of change, right?

A. Essentially, yes.

Q. One of the reasons for keeping the part dry for the

wet changes -- is changes -- is that they can -- they could have

movement in different directions on certain occasions, correct?

A. It's possible they could, yes.

Q. And also some, for example, dry changes can be

cured by a freshener upper, whereas wet changes generally can't:

is that right?


Q. NOw, when you were talking about PGM back in April,

did you get confused as to which direction a change called

deamidation, spelled d-e-a-m-i-d-a-t-i-o-n, I believe, -- which

direction the banding will shift with the deamidation reaction?

A. I believe my answers indicated that, yes.

Q. You first testified that it was going toward the

cathode, then you came back a couple days later, corrected

yourself, and said it was going towards the anode?


Q. NOW, is deamidation a wet or a dry change?

A. It would be a wet change.

Q. Is -- In acid phophatase are there any particular

type of changes that you have to watch out for?

A. Yes, there are are.

Q. What are those?

A. During a wet state changes with the presence of a


, ,.., U , , ,-., o .J -,-a .1-' U

,

4645

1 both of bacteria and the water, I did produce a chemical called

2 neuranimidase. They may change the intensity of some of the

3 bands, and consequently one type may start looking like another

4 type.

5

6

7

8

9

10

one of

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

the

Q.

Where did you get that idea?

It's out of one of the papers that I've read.

By Dr. Sensabaugh or

I don't believe so. I think it's by Jim Kearny is

authors.

Are you sure that it's the kind of neuranimidase

11 change that you have to worry about in the EAP?

12 We should spell neuranimidase,

13 n-e-u-r-a-n-i-m-i-d-a-s-e, I believe.

14 Does that sound right?

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

A. Sounds right.

Q. Are you sure that neuranimidase is what's involved?

A. That's the object or the subject of the study, yes.

Q. Any other changes in EAP that you have to watch out

for?

A. One change which can be rectified, if you will, by

your freshening up agent is the shift towards the positive side.

Q. That's a result of what's called the formation of

mixed sulfides?

A. That's true, yes.

Q. That's a dry change, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And that can be at least kept under control by, as

28 you say, freshening up: is that right?


en U

I , I-' o .:1 -,-e

I ,

1

2

3

4

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

4646

Yes, sir.

Is deamidation a problem with EAP?

Not that I know of, no, sir.

When -- when you testified back at the -- at the --

5 We've had a slight difference in terminology

6 between the two of us about I say -deamidation,- you say

7 -deamination,- is that basically correct?

8

9

A.

Q.

Basically, yes.

And did you mean to imply by using the word

10 -deamination- that there's some other --

11

12

A.

Q.

NO.

-- process involved other than the loss of amino

13 acids by some of these chemicals?

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

A. NO.

Q. Back at the -- back at the hearing in April did you

mean the deamination as you called it as one of the wet changes

that acid phosphatase could undergo?

A. I don't recall whether I did.

Q. Okay. I'd like to read then if I could I think

the same volume, Page 1159 Line 17 through 1160 Line 4.

MR. KOCHIS: I have that.

MR. NEGUS: Reading:

-Question: What are the wet state changes that

acid phophatase can undergo?

-Answer: Okay. Basically the ones we stated

before are possibly the, as you will, the

formation of disulfide compounds and the

deami na tion.


" U , , 1-' o :I L 1-.13

.. :J L

2

1

2

4647

-Question: Any others?

-Answer: Not that I'm aware of, no, sir, unless

3 well, unless there is the presence of bacteria

4 which creates neuranimidase, the enzyme

5 neuranimidase.-

6 Your answer back in April was at least in part

7 incorrect, is that right, that is, the formation of mixed

8 sulfides are not a wet change?

9

10

A.

Q.

They are not usually described as a wet change, no.

They are the example normally given after a dry

11 change?

12

13

A.

Q.

Yes.

And do you now know whether there is a deamidation

14 problem with EAP?

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

A. I believe I was stating that as a possibility. I

don't -- I haven't seen in the literature any problem with

deamidation of the EAP.

Q. So, you're sayirig now that you were just giving

that as an example of what could have occurred?

A. Basically. yes.

Q. At that point in time we were going through all the

different enzymes and I was asking for each one of them what are

the wet and dry changes, right?

A. I believe so, yes.

Q. What other enzymes is neuranimidase a problem for?

A. Neuranimidase could be a problem for transferrin.

27 It can be a problem I believe for Gc. And if I ran a different

28 system it could be a problem for haptoglobin.


,-, U , , 1-' o -, ,--,-a -, :I

c~.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

-........... i

4648

Q. The reason -- Well, for some of your haptoglobin

runs, not the one involved with A-4l, but for SOme of the other

ones, you do in fact use that system: is that right?

A. No, sir, I did not. I believe Brian Wraxell may

have, but I did not.

Q. All right. The -- what does -- basically as far as

the neuranimidase, again trying not to get more technical than

we have to, but what that does is remove what are called sialic,

s-i-a-l-i-c, acids off the outside of the some of the proteins

which causes the change in the charge; is that right?


Q. And you believe that EAP has sialic acids on the

outside?

A. Since neuranimidase does effect EAP it very well

could be that it does.

Q. When you testified before you were unaware, were

you not, that Gc underwent the process of desialidation; is that

right?

A. I don't recall whether I was or was not.

Q. At that point in time do you recall testifying that

the-- that the change that -- that Gc underwent as far as wet

state changes was deamidation?

time.

14.

A. I don't recall specifically what I said at that

MR. NEGUS: If I could read, your Honor, 1248, I through

MR. KOCHIS: I have that.

MR. NEGUS: (Reading:)


I-' o ~I 1--1-a ·u . ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 ~

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

~

"

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

8 or a 1-8.

Q.

A.

Q.

4649

-Question: What wet state changes did Gc undergo?

-Answer: As far as Gc I believe it undergoes the

deamidation type stages.

-Question: Shifts to the anode then as it gets

older?

-Answer: Yes.

-Question: Any others?

-Answer: Except for the basic proteolytic

metabolism of it, no.-

Proteolytic spelled, p-r-o-t-e-o-l-y-t-i-c.

-Question: You mean just becoming inactivated?

-Answer: Yes.

-Question: What about the dry state?

-Answer: Again you are looking at the oxydation

type of occurrences plus a lesser rate the

deamidation type of reaction.-

Does peptidase A involve any hidden variations?

Yes, it does.

Can that effect typing calls?

Yes, it can.

What kind of confusion can it cause?

You may confuse what a -- what's called a I for an

Can it result in a 2 and a 2-1 looking the same?

No, sir.

Would it be fair to say that at the time that you

were running the tests on A-41 last June -- in June, August, and

October of 1983, that you did not have a very good understanding


" U , , CI (J

:I L ,-a .,-3

4650

1 of the different types of changes that these enzymes undergo?

2 A. I think it's more correct to say I don't have -- I

3 didn't have as well of an understanding as I do now back then.

.. Q. Well, you mean, did you -- did you even know the

5 difference between whether deamidation was a wet or a dry change

6 or a disulfide reaction?

7 A. I don't recall at this time whether I did or did

8 not.

9 Q. If the answers that I've read to you from your

10 testimony then were correct, that would be an indication you

11 didn't; is that right?

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

A. In part, yes, I would say yes.

Q. And are those the type of changes that Dr.

Sensabaugh says that the failure to understand can lead to

typing missca11s?

A. I believe he would, yes.

Q. Thank you.

I have nothing further.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. KOCHIS:

Q. Mr. Gregonis. We've had some talk about PGM and

the PGM subtyping, for example, those types being set out, some

of those being set out on Exhibit 589.

Is it fair to say that during the summer of 1983

26 your lab was set up to do PGM but not the subtypes; is that

27 correct?

28 A. That is true, yes.

cm1PUTERI ZED TRANSCRIPT

"fj

U j , -,--

,( ,lJ

4651

1 Q. And at this pOint in time your lab is now able to

2 do the subtypings~ and you've indicated the subtyping results

3 for the victims and the defendant in this case1 is that true?

A. Yes, I have.

5 Q. Is it also fair to state, however, that when you

6 type PGM, just the regular PGM, setting aside for a moment

7 subtyping, if the blood samples have not undergone any

8 degredation you are still going to get reliable PGH results?

9

10

A.

Q.

Yes, you will.

Now, when you first typed Josh's blood, his PGH

11 result was what?

12

13

A.

Q.

A 2-1.

And was that when that sample you had of his blood

14 at that time was somewhat fresh?

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Then approximately after, what, a year went by,

there was some evidence that that sample of blood had degraded?

A. I believe it's eight months to a year, somewhere

around there.

O. And when you typed it you got a result in that

blood that indicated his blood had somehow changed?


Q. And then you retested a fresh sample of his blood

and got the same result that you had initially gotten, a 2-1, is

that correct?


Q. So is there any problem with your opinion that Josh

28 Ryen is in fact a PGH type 2-l?


" U , , o o :f L .e ., ,

4652

1 A. No.

2 Q. When you conducted your PGM runs in June on A-41,

3 were you able to read the results from the plate?

4

5

A.

Q.

Yes, I was.

Did you have -- were those results so weak or faint

6 ' that you felt hesitant to call -- you felt hesitant to call the

7 PGM type of A-41?

8

9

A.

Q.

No, sir.

Are you confident now that the result that you

10 placed on the chart for that PGM 1 type was a type 1?

11

12

A.

Q.

Yes, I am.

When samples degrade, whether they are whole blood

13 or bloodstains, do you usually see evidence of the degredation

14 when you conduct an electrophoretic run?

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

A. You can, yes.

Q. Can you give the jury an example of the type of

degredation you would see on an electrophoretic run when the

sample starts to degrade?

A. One example would be just a streaking of the

sawple, just all streaked out, not distinct bands.

Another example would be the intensities of say a

PGM couldn't look like normal because of some of the changes

that are occurring.

Q. When we use these terms wet and dry state changes,

are we still talking about a form of degredation tha t you would

see in an electrophoretic running of a sample?

A. For the most part, yes.

Q. Did you see any evidence of degredation of A-41


, " U , , 1-' o -:, ,--I-e ·0 ,0

/~

1

2

3

4

5

6

1

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 /-------.,

15

16

11

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

21

28

/--,

4653

when you ran the Group I tests and got your PGM and EsD results?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Now, Mr. Negus asked you a question about when you

conducted some of the typing on A-41 if you had some information

from a person called Mr. Lorenz. DO you recall that?

A. Yes; yes, I do.

Q. NOW, is he a person that works in your crime lab in

San Bernadino?

A. No, he'S not.

Q. Does he work in a crime lab in some other part of

the country?

A. Yes, he does.

Q. Is that Pennsylvania, somewhere in Pennsylvania?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. NOW, did he ever represent to you that he had a

standard, a known sample, for example, that Kevin Cooper had

donated, had come into his crime lab and donated a sample?

A. NO, he did not.

Q. So, you didn't have a known standard of Mr. Cooper

when you started typing A-4l; is that correct?


Q. Now, did you also in this case mail portions of the

evidence to Dr. Blake to conduct his own independent serological

analysis?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And do you recall which items you sent to Dr,

Blake?

MR. NEGUS: Objection. That would be beyond the scope of

CQl'lPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

n u , , o o :J I -,-a ·0 J

,--"-

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 ~" 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4654

cross. A-4l was not one.

MR. KOCHIS: Well, your Honor, I believe 11m entitled to

go into the fact that whatever welve had that therels been

enough of they have gotten to do their own analysis on.

THE COURT: Counsel, the credibility factors are so

extensive in this case 11m going to permit it. I will overrule

the objection.

BY MR. KOCHIS:

Q. Do you recall which samples?

A. I can look them up. Yes.

The ones specifically to Dr. Blake?

Q. Yes.

A. This would be portions of items quadruple D

quadruple F, B-7, E-9, 0-9, C-IO, triple I, triple J, triple K,

triple L, JJ , VV-2, triple T, A-26, A-27, A-28, A-30,

Q. Did you send him a portion of the sheets as well?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And the -A- numbers youlve just referred though,

were those portions of the carpet that were sustained with blood

which were removed from the Ryen master bedroom?

A. Yes, they were.

Q. Now, Mr. Negus asked you questions about the

possibility of moisture and how it may effect a bloodstain if an

item is placed in a plastic bag. DO you recall that area?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. When you examined the nylon rope, J-9, which was

removed from the Ryen -- excuse me, the Lease house, did you see

any evidence on that stain or on the rope itself or inside the


I

C '..I -c -

. ,~

LI

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

~, 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28 /'~

4655

plastic bag, any evidence of condensation?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did you see any evidence of moisture having been in

that plastic bag?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Likewise with the hatchet sheath, J-5, when you

examined that did you see any evidence of condensation?

A. NO, I did not.

Q. Directing your attention back to the nylon rope for

a moment, you looked at that first of all to determine if there

were stains on it that were consistent visually with being

blood; is that correct?


Q. And do you have in mind now the amount of the stain

approximately that was on the rope?

A. Somewhat, yes.

Q. Had that bloodstain been deposited on the rope the

late evening hours of Saturday, June the 4th, or the early

morning hours of Sunday, June the 5th, and had that rope

remained in a closet in a home until it was seized either late

on the 7th or early in the morning on the 8th, would you expect

that stain after it had been in the closet on the rope for two

days or three days, would you expect that stain to be wet or

dry?

A. I would expect it to be dry.

Q. NoW, when a bloodstain is dry, when it's no longer

moist, is it proper procedure to place it in a plastic bag?

A. It's never proper procedure, but it can be done.

COfoIPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

"" U I , .,

o , c , ,

j ,

4 1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

~ 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24 1

25

26

27

28

4656

Q. Is the evidence of having the stain effected by

moisture lessened considerably when the bloodstain is dried

prior to the time it's placed in the bag?

A. Yes.

Q. And is one of the reasons for placing an item of

evidence in a plastic bag to keep other moisture from getting to

it, for example, liquids and things like that?

A. That is one possible, reason yes.

Q. J-16, the belt buckle

And, your Honor, this is a stain I neglected to go

into on direct and I suppose technically it's outside the scope

of cross. I would like permission to reopen to cover that one

stain.

THE COURT: Can you finish the rest of your redirect?

MR. KOCHIS: The rest of my redirect is going to be very

short. I can't imagine going for longer than 15 minutes.

THE COURT: Well, what I suggested was that you go ahead

and do the rest of your redirect.

MR. NEGUS: I have no qualms.

THE COURT: It makes it more difficult. Can you go ahead

and do the rest of it first?

MR. KOCHIS: I can.

THE COURT: It would be helpful. That way I can tell

when you are going into new areas.

BY MR. KOCHIS:

Q. Back in August, when you ran Mr. Cooper's blood and

A-4l on the blood from the Ryen home, to test it for EAP, at one

pOint you ran those on the same plate1 is that correct?


n u , , ,--, o :J L -, . , .:1 L

1

2

A.

o.

4657

Yes, I did.

And at that point you did not have an RB standard

3 on the plate, is that correct?

4

5

A.

o. That is correct, yes.

And the results of Mr. Cooper's blood, when you ran

6 it for the EAP back in August, the call that you made on that

7 was a B; is that correct?

8

9

A.

o. That is correct, yes.

And that's the same call that you made on the drop

10 of blood that came from inside of the Ryen home back in August

11 when you also called it a B; is that correct?

12

13

A.

o. Yes, sir.

So regardless of the name you gave the enzyme, what

14 you saw on the plate was the same when you looked at Mr.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

Cooper's blood and the blood from the house, the same type.

A. Yes, sir.

o. When Mr. Blake, Dr. Blake came down to test A-41,

did he make certain suggestions to you?

A. Yes, he did.

O. And did you follow, for example, the suggestions

that he gave you?

A. Yes, I did.

O. Did he ever tell you that he thought doing the

haptoglobin or the transferrin tests were a bad idea?

A. No, sir 0

O. Did he tell you at that time that he had typed -

MR. NEGUS: Objection. I believe, your Honor, that Mr.

28 Kochis is --


" U , I

.-., o J L ,

I -, J

/~~

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 ~

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

THE COURT: Leading?

.-~

,,;"0.

4658

MR. NEGUS: More than that. I think he's about to go

into an area where I think we have already had some discussion.

THE COURT: I can't recall it. Why don't we just take an

early recess and we will take it up at that point.

Ladies and gentlemen, remember the admonition.

Counsel, let's remain in session.

(The Jury retires from the courtroom.)

(The following proceedings were held in

open court out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: If there is any question perhaps you can

discuss it privately with counsel.

MR. KOCHIS: I was going to ask -- I don't think this is

going to be resolved by any discussion with counsel off the

record.

I can tell the Court where we are going and we can

have argument on it.

I was gOing to ask Mr. Gregonis if at any time Dr.

Blake had suggested that they rerun A-41 for EAP.

THE COURT: r-~r. Negus, I don't remember any

MR. NEGUS: We had a long discussion about this last

summer, and basically the prosecution is not to supposed to ask

defense people why they didn't make discovery available to the

prosecution, because we're under a duty not to, and then we

would to get into all that cOllateral.

Plus, I think it is probably unconstitutional due

to the fact that we're under a duty not to give discovery.

cm:PUTERI ZED TRANSCRI PT

'-n u , , ,-, o :J L -, , L' ,

1

2

4659

THE COURT: This isn't the same thing, is it?

MR. NEGUS: Sure. I mean, basically he's asking why did

3 Dr. Blake, did Dr. Blake tell Dan the results of Dr. Blake's

4 analysis done for me.

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

THE COURT: You asked, did Dr. Blake ask the witness to

rerun certain tests on A-4l.

MR. KOCHIS: Right.

THE COURT: Not tell him Dr. Blake's investigative

results at all. I don't see it being the same thing.

MR. NEGUS: I think it is -- therefore it is then

irrelevant if he asked him to or not, because the testimony was

that Dan decided to do it and then he consented to it.

THE COURT: I will overrule the objection.

MR. KOTTHEIER: Just for the record, we returned the

exhibit from --

THE COURT: You did?

MR. KOTTMEIER: Yes. This morning to the clerk. She

18 checked them all off as far as I know.

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

THE CLERK: Yes.

THE COURT: I have great curiosity as to the method of

proceeding. Perhaps we should go into chambers.

MR. KOTTMEIER: I would appreciate to hold that matter in

abeyance maybe until tomorrow and we can come in early, whatever

the Court's convenience.

MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, so as not to catch the Court by

surprise, I think I have about ten minutes of redirect left with

27 Mr. Gregonis. I don't know how long recross is going to last.

28 MR. NEGUS: Not very long so far.


L

,-, o :I l. , . , 5

~,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4660

MR. KOCHIS: My next witness is an expert from Long

Beach. He will not be here until 1:30 this morning.

THE COURT: We will live with it somehow.

(Recess)

THE COURT: All right, Mr. Kochis.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)

BY MR. KOCHIS:

Q. Mr. Gregonis, when we broke for the break, I

believe, the question I posed was, when Dr. Blake came down to

your lab, I believe in October, and A-41 was tested in a joint

testing setting, did Dr. Blake ever suggest that you test the

remainder for an EAP result?

A. No, he did not.

Q. Back for just a moment, so there is no confusion

for the jury, on Josh Ryen and the PGM, do you have an

approximate date with which you got the PGM result of Josh

Ryen's blood?

A. Yes, I do. That would be June the 24th, 1983.

Q. Approximately three weeks after the attack.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the sample of his blood was which laboratory

identification number?

A. Item JJ.

Q. That blood was somewhat fresh at that point?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. And the PGM result was what?


n u I ,

I-' IJ J L -, . , .f: .0

1

2

3

4

5

6 2

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 , 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

~ 27

28 ~',

4661

A. It was a 2-1.

Q. NOw, sometime in April of '84. did you rerun a

por tion of JJ?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And what result did you get when you reran Josh

Ryen's blood for its PGM type?

A. Okay. Item JJ, again on April the 28th, PGM read

as a PGM 2.

Q. Did that cause you to suspect that something had

happened to his blood as it sat in that vial in the refrigerator

in the crime lab, that it degraded?

A. Okay. First of all I ran three samples, two

different vials, and then one from a frozen swatch.

So, yes. And from those, yes, I did.

Q. Were all the results the same from the frozen

swatch as well from the sample?

A. They read as a 2. The two samples from the vials

definitely indicated some sort of degradation.

Q. Then did you obtain a fresh sample from Josh Ryen

because he was still alive and around?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. Was that assigned a particular laboratory

identification number?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What what was that?

A-. That's item TTT.

Q. Did you test that to determine his PGM type?

A. Yes, sir.

CQr-1PUTERI Z ED TRANSCRIPT

t

-" U , , o L' J L , - , ., ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

.. 27

28 ~

4662

Q. What type did you get?

A. That is a type 2-1.

Q. So, is Josh a 2-1 or a 2?

A. He's a 2-1.

Q. Did you take, however, that second sample TTT and

conduct some degradation studies on that sample?

A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. Is that when you learned that Josh's blood does

degrade over a period of time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. But, your opinion of his PGM type has always

remained the same, is that fair to say?


Q. And tests over a period of a year show that it is

2-1 and no other type. Is that fair to say?


Q. Now, the test that you and Dr. Blake performed on

A-4l, the transferrin and the haptoglobin, if that drop of

blood, if A-4l did not come from the d~fendant, Kevin Cooper,

would the transferrin and the haptoglobin test have had a good

chance of excluding him?

A. Yes, they would have.

Q. Did, for example, the transferrin test, did it

exclude Mr. Cooper?

A. NO, it did not.

Q. Mr. Cooper is also a CD; is that fair to say?

A. Yes, he is.

Q. Did the haptoglobin test, did that exclude Mr.


,-, U , , l~' o :I L -, . , ·0 .0

4663

Cooper?

A. No, it did not.

Q. The drop of blood that was found in the Ryen home,

that has the same transferrin and haptoglobin type as Mr. Cooper

has?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. Now, the last test you attempted to perform on A-41

with Mr. Wraxall, was Mr. Blake also present at the time?

A. The last test? Yes.

Q. And was the quantity of the blood so small on the

last test that the three of you were unable to get a result?


Q. Now, the tan T-shirt, which has the laboratory

identification number CC that we talked about on Thursday, were

the serological results of that T-shirt also consistent with

that T-shirt being on the side of the road for a period of time

longer than three days?

A. It could have been, yes.

Q. Could it have been on the side of the road, based

on your serological results, for as long as three or four weeks?

A. That's a maximum. Yes.

Q. The stains that Mr. Negus brought up last week on

item NN-l. What serological profile did you get on the typing

of that stain?

A. NN-l is ABO type 0, EsD and PGM were both negative.

EAP a type B. ADA, 1, AX is 1. Transferrin, or Tf, is a C.

The Gc was negative. CA II is type 1, PEPA is a type 1 and

haptoglobin is a type 2.


I

l ........... . ...~

n u

~ , " Ci --! L -I

. ,

4664

1 Q. The profile of that stain, that is not consistent

2 with coming from any of the five victims in this case, is it?

3

.. A •

Q.

No, it is not.

So, if the blood of any of the five victims would

5 have gotten on that particular item, you would not have

6 expected -- you could not get the profile that you have in fact

7 got, is that true?

8 A. That is true, yes.

9 Q. The serological results you received from item

10 triple N-3, NNN-3, are those consistent -- is that profile

11 consistent with the profile of any of the victims or the

12 defendant in this case?

13

14

15

A.

Q.

A.

Yes, it is.

Who?

That would be, since it is consistent with ABO type

16 A, it is consistent with either Doug Ryen or Mr. Cooper.

17 Q. The mucous on the napkins, the V-IS, ·V· as in

IS victory, that were taken out of the car, is the profile that you

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

got from those items consistent with the genetic profile of any

of the victims?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Which victim or victims?

A. I would say the victims were EsD of type 1, which

would include all but Chris Hughes.

Q. It included Mr. and Mrs. Ryen?

A. Yes, it would.

Q.

A.

Jessica and Josh Ryen.

Yes, it would.

Cor-:PUTERI ZED TRANSCRIPT

,-, o -:1 ,--,-, o . I-' .. U

3

1

2

Q.

A.

4665

Approximately 70 percent of the white population?

Yes, sir. with the EsD, probably about 79, 80

3 percent.

4 Q. Have any of your experiments, your reading or your

5 work with other experts, made you in any way doubt that A-4l,

6 the drop of blood found in the hallway in the Ryen home, could

7 have come from Kevin Cooper?

8 A. No, sir.

9 MR. KOCHIS: That concludes my redirect. Could I reopen

10 for the one area of direct?

11

12

THE COURT: Yes, you may.

13 FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION

14 BY MR. KOCHIS:

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

Q. Now during -- turning your attention to the stain

to the buckle removed from the closet in the Lease home, J-16.

Did you analyze that stain to determine if it was

blood?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And what results did you get?

A. It is blood.

Q. Did you conduct a test to determine if it was human

blood?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Is it human blood?

A. Yes, it is human blood.

Q. Did you attempt to determine the ABO type of the

28 stain on that belt buckle?


. " U , , ,-, CI J L o o , ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

"~.--"" 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4666

A. Yes, 1 did.

O. Were you able to do so?

A. No, sir, I was not.

MR. KOCHIS: Thank you. I have no further questions.

RECROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. NEGUS:

O. Mr. Gregonis, are you as confident that the PGM

result that you got of a type 1, for A-41, was a 1 and no other

type, as you were confident at the preliminary hearing that the

EAP type was a B and no other type?

A. I am confident that it is a 1, yes.

O. The same degree of confidence that you were at the

preliminary hearing that the EAP was a B and no other type?

A. I would say at the preliminary hearing, yes.

O. When -- when Mr. Kochis was asking you about

looking at the A-4l, and Mr. Cooper's blood at the same time, 1

think you may have inadvertently given a misapprehension.

You did not actually ever compare the plate that

had A-41's result that you could read, with the plate that had

Mr. Cooper's result that you could read; is that correct?


O. SO, it wasn't like you were sort of looking on the

same plate, A-4l, and Mr. Cooper's b100d1 is that right?


O. You called lots of different, different samples

that you tested type B's; is that right?

A. Yes~ I did.


'" U I ,

I-' o -:1 1--

.-:1 o . -:, C

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 /~

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4667

Q. And there was nothing to distinguish the A-41

result, for example, from the type B that you got when you

analyzed Peggy Ryen's blood.


Q. Or Joshua Ryen's blood.

A. That is correct.

Q. Both appeared to be fresh without storage bands and

with the bands in the proper place.

A. Essentially, yes.

Q. When you called Mr. Cooper's result on August the

5th, you were aware at that point in time of what your A-41

result was; is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And there is a difference in like known samples

that you know that this was drawn from Mr. Cooper on August 1st,

and unknown samples when you don't know when it was shed, as far

as how much attention you normally would pay towards looking at

samples for degradation?

A. You look for it on both, I would say, in equally

places.

Q. Aren't you more concerned with the unknown sample

though in trying to see whether a sample is fresh or not fresh

as sort of additional information about the sample that might be

useful in interpreting?

A. Well, again, I would say you are looking for

degradation on both, because it is possible that a fresh whole

blood -- because the transportation or way it is stored could

have degraded.


II U , , .-, o :I L .--, o

. :'

.:1

4668

1 Q. There was no history problems as far as Mr.

2 Cooper's blood is concerned, you knew it came right from the

3 jail, it was only in your lab a few days before you tested?

" 5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

A. That, I knew of, yes.

MR. NEGUS: I have no further

MR. KOCHIS: I have no redirect.

THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Gregonis.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

THE COURT: This exhausts our witnesses this morning?

MR. KOCHIS: Yes.

THE COURT: Ready to go to at 1:301

MR. KOCHIS: Yes.

THE COURT: We discussed this earlier, ladies and

gentlemen. I am going to give you an extra long lunch period,

15 even though it is raining. So, shop indoors.

16 Remember the admonition and return at 1:30 if you

17 would, please.

18 --00000--

19 (noon recess taken.)

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

COl-lPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

rl U

I , 0 0 :t L 0 0

I

·LI I f ! , j ,

1

/'~

1

2

3

4

5

6

4669

SAN DIEGO. CALIFORNIA. MONDAY. DECEMBER 10. 1984. 1:38 P.M.

(Chambers conference reported.)

THE COURT: Defendant, Mr. Negus, Mr. Kochis in chambers.

Is Mr. Kottmeier coming?

MR. KOCHIS: I'm not sure. Apparently he is.

1 The reason I asked to meet in chambers was to alert

8 the Court and counsel to what my state of rediness is this

9

10

11

afternoon.

My next witness is outside, Dr. Morris.

We attempted to have Mr. Wraxell, who is going to

12 follow Mr. Horris, brought down over the weekend. He was

13 subpoenaed to testify in Alaska, went up there Wednesday. He is

14 back in Northern California now. I have him scheduled to get on

15

16

11

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

a plane at 5:00, but he will not be here until 7:00. He would

be my next witness.

I don't think Dr. l-lorris is going to take all that

long. I doubt the direct and cross is going to exceed sixty

minutess.

We would also like to introduce this afternoon into

evidence a number of the smaller photographs the jury has not

had the opportunity to see to allow them to view those

photographs at this time, and perhaps when they have gone work

further on the exhibits so we don't save that issue until the

last day in which we rest.

But I am alerting the Court that I have a witness

21 shortage this afternoon potentially if things go as smoothly as

28 I think they will with Dr. Horris.


" U , , .-., o :I L .-., o 5

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

~, 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28 '~

4670

MR. NEGUS: And--

MR. KOCHIS: And I'm also running into that stage of my

case where I have Dr. Morris this afternoon, Mr. Wraxel1

tomorrow. I hope to get Ms. Punter in the afternoon. And I

have another criminalist from Northern California set to fly in

tomorrow evening, Mr. Morton, with Mr. Lightfoot also testifying

on Wednesday. But we're getting toward the end of my case, and

I've somewhat spread the experts out so they don't all sit here,

but we are moving right along, but I'm getting to the point

where I may not be going to 4:00 o'clock every day. I'm trying

to go to 4:00 o'clock every day, but I'm letting the Court know

that's the situation with the experts this week.

THE COURT: It's a balancing act as to what's most

proper, to have them sit here or have all of us not knock off.

You know, when we multiply the time of all of us involved in

this case it amounts to a lot more than one. We've done well up

to now. Of course, Mr. Negus has been able to adjust the slack

by the extended cross-examination.

MR. NEGUS: Well, that's his problem is we are getting

into areas where, you know, I'm going to start "no questions,"

so I mean, it's -- I would just as soon not fill in with --

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. KOCHIS: The other problem I have.

THE COURT: Pump him as much as you can, Mr. Kochis, to

where you can anticipate brief examination, and then try and

keep backup witnesses. I appreciate the logistics, the distance

that all these people have and the season and all of that. DO

the best you can, that's all I can ask.


,-, U , I

" o , 1--" (1

',C ,'~

.~,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 ~"

IS

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4671

MR. NEGUS: It's hard for both of us to predict. I can't

tell him till I hear the direct whether I'm going to have any

questions. So I'm giving him estimates of zero to two days, so

that doesn't help.

THE COURT: There is some communication, as much as you

reasonably can, considering your positions try and anticipate as

much as possible. And I think we ought to also keep the jurors

advised. If we are going to run short even a few hours notice

would help them sometimes.

MR. KOTTMEIER: Your Honor, in regard to the photographs,

this afternoon we have a couple of issues that need to be heard

out of the presence of the jury.

Mr. Negus has indicated basically that he has no

objections to any of the photographs, however, there are a

series of photographs that begin at 466 and end -- excuse me

464, 466, -7, -8, -9 and -70 that are with the body removers.

THE COURT: You mean with the the clothing removed?

MR. KOTTMEIER: No. It's the body removers moving the

bodies or having them ready to be moved in body bags.

THE COURT: Oh, I see.

HR. KOTTMEIER: And I specifically did not want those

pictures introduced until at least we have heard a waiver or

something like that, if that is Mr. Negus' position, that he

wants those in. I see no need for -- particularly from my side

based upon the way in which we presented the autopsy evidence

thus far.

THE COURT: Time and testi~ony have hardened the jurors

somewhat to the shock value of any of our photographs, but we

C0I-1PUTERI ZED TRANSCRIPT

I

,-, U , , I-' I:' :I L o () , ,

2

1

2

4672

donlt want to lay it on them any heavier than we have to.

HR. NEGUS: 468 and 469, off the top of rr;y head I don I t

3 see any particular reason to have them. I mean, I have no

4 objection to them corning in if Mr. Kottmeier were to want them,

5 but I wouldnlt see any particular reason for them.

6 470. 466. I definitely do see a relevance to

7 because they show things that you canlt see in any other

8 pictures that I know of.

9 And 464 and 467, I have a sort of open mind on.

10 As to any of the pictures, I have no objection tp

11 them.

12 I would at some stage in the proceedings like those

13 two what you have in your hand that I mentioned I thought --

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

THE COURT: These two that I have here, 466 and 470.

Are you going to want to offer them, Mr. Kottmeier?

MR. KOT~EIER: I have no need to, and 11m just

indicating I would not offer them independently. If the defense

wants them. then I have no particular objection against them.

THE COURT: He wants them in.

Do you offer them then?

MR. NEGUS: Sure.

THE COURT: Then there being no objection they will be

received.

The next two being 467 and 464.

(Exhibits No. 466 and

470 received in

evidence.)

MR. NEGUS: Could we just hold those? As far as I'm

COf>1PUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

1-' U , , o o ,:.I -.-, o ·0 .0

4673

1 concerned the only reason that I would need those perhaps is

2 that if one of rr.y experts needs them for the basis of his

3 opinion. And that was the basis on which I had all those little

4 photographs rearked, because we had Mr. Duffy here I didn't see

5 any point to bringing Mr. Duffy back to establish a foundation

6 after my experts testified. m.

7 I have no -- I'm not offering -- I wouldn't -- I

8 don't care about them right at the moment.

9 THE COURT: Are you wanting to go into any of these four

10 here?

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

MR. KOTTNEIER: NO.

THE COURT: why are you giving them to me?

MR. NEGUS: Because he didn't know.

~R. KOTTMEIER: Because I wasn't sure what the defense's

position was, whether they wanted them. I didn't want it to

appear on the record that we slid in some body pictures without

them being considered by the Court.

We have additionally a series of about five

photographs which show Peg Ryen in position. And the problem I

have with these four, which are 263, 264, 265, 288, and 290 -- I

guess that's five -- is that her privates are exposed.

THE COURT: Is either of you going to offer these

pictures?

MR. NEGUS: Well, SOme of them I know I'm going to need.

THE COURT: We are getting at this in kind of a funny

manner. You are not offering them. Apparently you have some

27 objection to them. And he's not bringing them to me. so I

28 don't understand what we are doing.


I: .~. ,-, U

I , I-' o -, ,--,-, o ,-, :I

4674

1 MR. NEGUS: What happened was that Mr. Kottmeier asked me

2 if I would go through all the little pictures and pick out any I

3 had objection to, so I did, and I didn't have any objection to

4 any of them.

5 Then I also asked him at the same time whether or

6 not he would have objection if we get to it to introducing

7 pictures which showed pubic hair. He said he would. So we

8 pulled those out so we could talk about them. So I am sure at

9 some point in time that some of these are cumulative, but I know

10 that I'm going to be asking either now or later to introduce

11 264 --

12

13

14

15

MR. KOTTMEIER: We can wait, your Honor.

THE COURT: Why don't we.

MR. NEGUS: -- 290.

THE COURT: wait. And then may I suggest to you if we do

16 admit some of those pictures, let's get some masking tape or

17 something that's easily put on on after

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

MR. KOTTMEIER: I've done a sample.

THE COURT: for the jurors whose sensibilities, that's

completely obliterated to where they can't, in case there is

necessity evidentiary value there, if they want to they can lift

up the flap, if they don't want to they don't. I don't care how

you handle it. We are concerned about the effect upon jurors is

what we are concerned with.

MR. NEGUS: Okay. So I have no need to introduce these

now but I will later, these three.

THE COURT: As far as them slipping them in

28 inadvertently, I just trust that you will watch.


I-' o ~I 1--I-' :I . I-' .U

.'~

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

.------- 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27 -28

4675

MR. KOTTMEIER: That's what we're doing.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. I will give you two of

them. These two, we admitted those with Mr. Negus, Mr.

Kottmeier not objecting.

MR. KOTTMEIER: so I will have, if it's the Court's

pleasure, a large number of scene photographs that can be .

introduced, and if you prefer, circulated among the jurors, and

it will take awhile to get through them because there are quite

a few, whatever is your interest.

THE COURT: Is that your desire, to admit all these

photographs this afternoon, and then without explanation just in

mass let them go through?

MR. KOTTMEIER: Well, these are photographs that have

been the subject of discussions heretofore. They are

photographs of --

THE COURT: You don't have to explain, Mr. Kottmeier. If

that's what you desire to do, it's all right with me there being

no objection.

MR. KOTTMEIER: It's just photographs of the scene, the

house, that's all.

THE COURT: We will just sit still. And let's see if

there isn't some way of systematically doing it. I think the

best way would be for you to start some at the far alternate on

that end, and otherwise going this way so that they are all

moving in the same direction at the same time instead of

crossing so we can get them going in two places. Okay. Let's

go back out.

(Chambers conference concluded.)


, r, u , , ,-., o ,:.I -,-, .:1 , ,

/---"

" 1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

~ 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

?~-'--~

4676

THE COURT: Before you call your next witness, by way of

preparation and explanation for the jury, we have discussed,

counsel and I, the logistics and the -- a little bit in advance

of the witnesses who will be coming the next few days, and we

are beginning to get into some problem areas with reference to

time and distance, so to speak.

We are starting to deal with people that are not

local people. They are from out of town with other

committments. And we may not be running all as smooth to where

we may break off a little bit early sometimes during the day.

Today we are going to probably finish up a little

bit early and they are going to show you many of the pictures

that have been discussed heretofore, and let you off perhaps a

little bit early before 4:00 o'clock.

On Wednesday, so that some of the staff people can

get in a group photograph with others of their counterparts, we

are going to quit at 3:45, but we are going to return from lunch

at 1:15 instead of 1:30, at least that's our plan at this time,

so you can plan as best you can.

Who's next, counsel?

MR. KOCHIS: Dr. Morris, your Honor.

JEFFREY W. MORRIS,

called as a witness on behalf of the People, having been duly

sworn, testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Thank you. Would you have a seat. Would you

state your full name for the record and spell your last name.

THE WITNESS: Dr. Jeffrey W. Morris, M-o-r-r-i-s.


" U I ,

,-, o :J L ,-" :I

.:1 c:

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 ,~,

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4677

THE CLERK: Thank you.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. KOCHIS:

Q. Doctor, what is your current occupation or

business?

A. I'm Clinical Assistant Professor of Pathology at

the University of California Irvine School of Medicine.

I'm employed as a Pathologist at Memorial Medical

Center in Long Beach.

Q. What do your duties at the hospital in Long Beach

include?

A. I share general pathology responsibilities. 11m

part of a group of pathologists. In addition I have

responsibility for the parentage testing laboratory.

Q. I take it then you are licensed to practice law in

the State of California?

THE COURT: Practice medicine.

MR. KOCHIS: Medicine. I'm sorry. It's going to be

another one of those afternoons.

THE WITNESS: I am.

BY MR. KOCHIS:

Q. You are not licensed to practice law?

A. Tha t 's cor recto

Q. You are licensed to practice medicine?

A. I am.

Q. HOw long have you been licensed to practice

medicine in the State of California?


" U , , 1-' o ~I

C

1

2

3

4

5

6

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

4678

I was licensed in 1978.

Do you have an undergraduate degree in some field?

I do.

From what inside institution and in what field?

In mathematics from UCLA.

Do you likewise have a Ph.d degree in addition to

1 your medical degree?

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

A. I do.

o. In what field and from what institution?

A. In biophysics from UCLA.

Q. Are you board certified in any area of in medicine?

A. I am.

Q. Which area?

A. I am board certified in anatomic and clinical

pathology by the American Board of pathology.

o. How long have you held the teaching position which

you've mentioned to the jury at the University of California at

Irvine, I believe, of the medical school?

A. For six years.

O. DO you have any educational background in the area

of serology?

A. Yes, I do.

I'd like to correct my testimony. I have been

employed as a pathologist since 1918. I was licensed in 1914.

O. Okay. Back to the serology.

A. All right.

O. Is serology related to either the disciplines of

28 paternity or pathology?


" U , , o o ,:1 -CI :J

·LI ,

,~

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

" . 27

28

4679

A. Yes, it is related to both.

Serology is a technique which ,is part of clinical

pathology. It's used especially in the blood bank to determine

the blood types of donor and recipient for safe transfusion of

blood.

It's used in paternity testing because the

particular serologic markers that are studied are inherited and,

therefore, studies of a mother, a child, and an alleged father

can provide information as to whether or not the alleged father

is, in fact, the biological father.

Q. And, in fact, is that one of the things that the

lab in Long Beach does on the paternity side is determining, for

example, the probability with which a particular young man may

or may not be the father of a given child?

A. That's correct.

Q. Have you written any articles which have been

accepted for publication in either the field of serology or

genetics?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you give the jury an example?

A. In the -- in the field of serology we have

published a paper on gene frequencies of two electrophoretic

systems, PGM isolectric focusing and Gc isolectric focusing in

the California/Mexican population.

We have published a number of articles relating to

the biostatistical analysis of data for paternity studies.

Q. Are you familiar with the ABO blood group system?

A. I am.


1-' U , , .-., (I

:f L .-., ,:I ·c .J

~-,

1

2

3

.. 5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20 2

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

.--"-1

4680

Q. And, in fact, does your laboratory analyze samples

of whole blood to determine the ABO blood group type of that

blood?

A. We do.

Q. And does the concept essentially hold that almost

all people have one of four different ABO blood group types?

A. Yes.

Q. And that those types are inherited from their

parents?

A. Yes.

Q. And they remain constant throughout the life of an

individual?

A. They do.

Q. Are there tests, for example, that are employed in

your lab and other hospitals to make a determination of what the

ABO type is of a whole or liquid blood?

A. Yes.

Q. Would slide agglutination technique be such an

example?

A. It would.

Q. Likewise are there methods used to determine the

ABO blood group type of a drop of blood which becomes dried and

is called a bloodstain?

A. Yes.

Q. NOW, in addition to the ABO blood group system, do

we likewise have certain enzymes and serum proteins which exist

in the human blood?

A. Yes, we do.

CO}!PUTERI ZED TRANSCRI PT

-" U , , .-, o ,J -o :J ,-a

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 ~

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4681

Q. For example, directing your attention to a chart

which we have marked for identification in this trial as Exhibit

492, moving across from my left to my right, starting with ESD,

would these, the EsD, the PGM, the EAP, would those be examples

of various enzymes and serum proteins which exist in the blood

of people?

A. Yes.

Q. And have tests been developed, for example, to

determine the various enzyme and serum proteins types of a

sample of whole blood?

A. Yes.

Q. Does your laboratory in Long Beach, for example, at

the hospital perform those type of tests?

A. For the enzyme and proteins tests, that's performed

in the paternity laboratory, parentage laboratory, not in the

blood blank.

Q. And do you use a technique called electrophoresis?

A. We do.

Q. Does that essentially involve placing stains on a

gel medium which is placed on a glass plate through which an

electric charge is applied?

A. Yes. The stains are placed after the charge has

been applied, after the run has been complete.

Q. DO you stain -- Excuse me.

DO you test, for example, in your laboratory for

the various enzyme types that are listed on the exhibit?

A. We test for most of these. We don't test for

Carbonic Anhydrase III. We test for all the other enzymes.


"n u , , ,-., o J L o J -, ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

~ ~- 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

.. 27

28

4682

In the proteins systems we test for Gc. We test

for haptoglobin. And we do not test for peptidase A which is

another enzyme.

Q. NOw, doctor, are you familiar with the the term

·secretor-?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. And could you perhaps define briefly for the jury

what that term applies to?

A. The ABO blood group sUbstances are expressed on the

surface of red cells. They are also expressed on a variety of

other cells and other tissues throughout the body.

There is a genetically inherited characteristic

which is expressed by the individual who possesses that

characteristic to secret such substances in the body fluids,

such as saliva. Such a trait is genetically controlled and is

called the secretor status.

Q. In certain body fluids, for example, semen, is it

possible to through the use of electrophoresis to test the semen

to determine, for example, the certain enzyme types that may

belong to the person that deposited the semen sample?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Now, in the laboratory in Long Beach do you use a

multisystem which allows you to test for more than one enzyme on

the same plate?

A. Yes, we do.

Q. And is that accepted, for example, within the

medical field as being a valid and reliable method of

determining enzymes and serum proteins types?


·r, u , , 1-' o -, C 1-' .:1 .0 l=t

.,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

A. Yes.

o. NOw, are you familiar with the term population

genetics?

A. I am.

o. To what does that term apply?

A. Population genetics is a branch of the general

science of genetics, and it deals with the relationship

genetically of different human populations.

4683

Populations can be expressed as races or particular

10 ethnic groups. The relationship between different races or

11 ethnic groups can be studied by determining the frequency of

12 certain genetic markers within each of the groups.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

o. Have studies been conducted" for example, to

determine the frequencies with which certain enzyme types appear

in various populations?

A. Yes.

O. Based on a genetic profile can you draw certain

inferences and conclusions about the ethnic heritage of the

person who deposited a particular. for example, sample of blood?

A. Frequently we can.

O. Which -- could you tell the jury which enzyme types

would be indicative, for example, of an individual who had Black

heritage?

A. Peptidase A 2-1 is a phenotype that essentially

occurs with appreciable frequency in the Black population.

O. Are there others?

A. Of the enzymes?

O. Serum proteins.


I

I L . ,

n u

I I ,-,

CI , ,--" :I .f' :I

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17 3

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

/-"

4684

A. Well, hemoglobin S and hemoglobin C are traits that

are found in this country basically only in the Black

population.

Hemoglobin S is the gene for the sickle cell trait.

These genes could be found in other populations such as

Southeast Asians, but not with the same frequency they are found

in Blacks.

Q. How about haptoglobin and transferrin?

A. Haptoglobin is a protein. And there is a variant

called RM" or Rmoderate" which is found in appreciable frequency

in the population in the United States in Blacks. It can also

be found in somewhat lower frequency among Hispanics.

Q. And transferrin?

A. The "0" gene in transferrin again is a gene that

occurs in the American population with appreciable frequency in

Blacks, although it can occur in Hispanics.

Q. Now, is there any biological explanation for the

link between the frequency of enzymes and serum proteins and

race, for example, with the hemoglobin?

A. Well, the hemoglobin S gene when it occurs as a

single gene confers no special biological advantage or

disadvantage. When its occurs in a double dose, this is

hemoglobin this is hemoglobin S disease or sickle cell

disease.

This is a very serious medical problem. Many of

the individuals with this disease could do not survive to

reproductive age. So the question is why would this gene

persist in the Black population. One explanation could be that


n u , , 1-' o .J J

" U

." U

~-

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

l3

-~, 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

~

4685

the presence of the hemoglobin S trait protects against malaria,

protects against the infestation of the red cells with the

organism that causes malaria. So one can imagine in malarial

epidemic zones such as Equatorial Africa such a gene was

maintained in order to protect against the disease.

There are other examples in red cell antigens.

There is ~ trait called RDuffy blank R (phonetic). Again this is

a trait that is found with high frequency in the Black

population. And cells that are RDuffy blank- (phonetic) again

confer some resistance to malaria.

Q. Now, has a biological explanation been developed

for the link between every enzyme type that may be indicative of

racial heritage?

A. No. Most appear to have no biological Significance

one way or the other. They are just convenient markers to

study.

Q. Now directing your attention, doctor, to this

chart, Exhibit 592, in the profile, the genetic profile adjacent

to the stain labeled A-41, in a bloodstain in which the

transferrin type has been analyzed to be a CD, the haptoglobin

type has been analyzed to be a 2-IM. and the peptidase A type

has been analyzed to be a 2-1, does that profile, that genetic

profile and those three types allow you to draw any conclusions

about the race of the person who deposited the stain?

A. well~ it would depend upon where the bloodstain was

found.

Q. Let me add another factor then to the hypothetical

question: Assume that that bloodstain was found in the hallway


rl U

I , ,--, o --, :I ,-, u ,

I

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28 ~

4686

in a home in Chino, Caiifbrnia, in San Bernadino County?

A. This blood would be almost surely from a Black man.

O. NOW, what would cause you to have that opinion?

A. Well, these three systems, among the many types of

this blood, are the three systems that are particularly

informative. That is, first of all, these types are uncommon in

all populations, but they are rare or have never been described

in most populations.

I have some notes here, if I can refer to my notes.

O. Well, let me perhaps break them down, doctor. For

example, the peptidase A type 2-1, is that a type that has been

found, for example, in Black populations?

A. Yes. About ten percent of the Black population.

Q. Other than Black populations, has the 2-1 type been

found in any other population?

A. I can't say it's never been found. It would be

extremely rare in Caucasians and Europeans. There have been

studies of several thousand Europeans and this type has never

been found.

It hasn't been found in Micronesia, South America,

Japan, China, India, Europe. It does occur rather rarely in

Hispanic population. In one study about three out of 750

Hispanics had this particular type.

But it occurs with appreciable frequency as far as

we know in no other population other than Blacks.

O. Likewise with the transferrin, is the transferrin

CD type a type that is found with some frequency in the black

population?


f

,-, o -, :I ,-, u . =, C

........ , . " .~ .

,--

,,--"" 1 I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

" ----.....,

4687

A. Yes, it iso

Q. And would you happen to know what the frequency

would be within the Black population of a transferrin CD type?

A. In American Blacks is between two and four percent

depending on the study. In Afican Blacks the range is somewhat

larger, two to eight percent most studies.

Q. Is that transferrin type, the CD, found with any

frequency in any population other than the Black population?

A. It occurs in some Mexicans who are of mixed ethnic

background, these people are called Mesatizos, that may have

Black mixture.

It occurs with high frequency in a particular tribe

in Venezuela.

It occurs in relatively low frequency in other

populations other than the two to four percent in Blacks.

Q. Likewise the haptoglobin 2-lM, is that a type that

is found within the Black population?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And are you aware of what the frequency is

genetically?

A. Roughly about ten percent.

Q. Is that type, the 2-lM, found in populations other

than the Black population?

A. It is in lower concentration -- lower frequency.

Q. For example, in what other population?

A. It's seen in Hispanics, that is Mexicans. It's

seen in some tribes in Middle America, Central America, in

native Indian populations in Brazil, in the Caribbean, French


n u , , CI (J

:J J

" u ,:I .J

~,

1

2 4

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 ~

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22 1

23

24

25

26

27

28

4688

Guinea, and in sope Yemenites, essentially found in vanishing

small frequency among Caucasians.

Q. NOW, doctor, have you been able to calculate the

frequency with which the genetic profile simply of those three

variants, the transferrin CD, the haptoglobin 2-1M, and the

peptidase A 2-1, the frequency with which that profile would

appear in the Black population?

A. Just those three traits?

Q. Well, let's go further than that. Let's take all

of the enzymes and serum proteins on 592, and as far as the EAP,

could you give us the probability of both it being an EAP and an

RB, combining those together?

A. Again I would include ABO which is on there but is

not an enzyme or a protein.

Q. Fine.

A. The probability that a randomly selected Black

individual would possess all of these traits is very roughly one

in 25,000.

Q. So, even among persons of Black heritage, the

profile on Exhibit 592, the genetic profile is a rare profile or

not a common profile among Black people?

A. It's very uncommon.

Q. What would be the frequency of an occurrence of

that profile, the profile on 592, among another population, for

example, HispaniCS?

A. Well, with HispaniCS we are somewhat limited

because the genes of the particular the genetic traits are very

rare, some of the rarest, especially peptidase A. For instance,


ir, U , , ,-, o -, :I 1-' U ·LI ,

~~

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

/-~,

4689

the frequency is one out of two hundred fifty, approximately,

maybe a magnified figure. But among Mexicans I would expect to

see this particular set of markers to occur with chance, in a

Mexican man or woman, about one in ten million.

Q. So, the profile on the board is more frequent

within the black population; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. But even within the population it is not a common

genetic particular profile.

A. It is very uncommon.

THE COURT: I have no further questions.

MR. NEGUS: NO questions.

THE COURT: Thank you, Doctor. Mr. Kottmeier.

MR. KOTTMEIER: Yes, your Honor, the people would request

and we have discussed this previously the introduction of some

of the smaller photographs that have heretofore been marked for

identification, first of all, two black and white pictures, 64

and 65. and these have previously been referred to on the stand,.

photographs of an individual.

Then there is a series of photographs which we read

the numbers off, which relate to the testimony we had from the

Lease house, the 2991 English Road, and they are as follows:

151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 172, 207, 208, 209,

210, 211, 212, 213, and 215.

THE COURT: Let's stop there for a second. Since you are

going to be distributing them to the jury, do you have any

objection to any of them so far?

MR. NEGUS: No.


n u I ,

1-' o -, :I I-' U

5

,~,

1

2

3

" 5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

/"'---'-, 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

\. 27

28

,,--".

4690

MR. KOTTMEIER: 215.

(Exhibits No. 64, 65,

151 thru 156, 172,

207 thru 213, 215,

received in evidence.)

THE COURT: Bailiff, why don't you 9i~e this first group

to Ms. Aguinaga then perhaps to Mrs. Lister. That way we can

keep them going the next direction and then you can pick them up

from the ladies after they get back to them-

MR. KOTTMEIER: This next very large group of pictures,

your Honor, relate strictly to the Ryen house and the scene of

2943 English Road.

Photograph 93. Excuse me, 93 belongs in the last group,

that is from the Lease house.

THE COURT: wait until you get a whole package together.

f>!R. KOTTl-1EIER: 93 is one of the photographs in that

group. This is now strictly the Ryen house.

Photographs 94, 214, 220, 221, 222, 224, 230, 231,

232.234.235,239,240.241,242,243,24'.245,246,247,248,

249, 250, 256. Let me return a moment. There was 251, 252,

253. 254. 255, 257, 258.

That particular group of pictures are all exterior

pictures, with one exception, a photograph'of some shoes of the

Ryen house.

THE COURT: No objection?

MR. NEGUS: No objection to any of these.

THE COURT: All right, so received.


" U I ,

'~I o ;, ::J I-' U ·C .0

1

2

3

4

5

6

1

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 ,-- ~

15

16

11

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

21 ".

28

/~ -,

4691

Then Mrs. Lister, perhaps when you finish with the

pictures, sirr.ply set them beside.

Go abead.

(Exhibits No. 93, 94.

214, 220, 221, 222,

224, 230 thru 235,

239 thru 258, received

in evidence.)

MR. KOTTMEIER: This next group are photographs on the

interior of the Ryen, house particularly in the master bedroom.

259, 260, 261. 262, 266, 267, 268, 269, 270, 271, 272, 273. 274,

275, 276, 277 , 278, 279, 280, 281, 282, 283, 284, 285, 286, 281,

289, 291, 292. 293, 294, 295, 296, 297, 298, 299, 300, 301, 302,

303, 304, 305, 306, 307, 308, 309, 400. These are still in the

hallway and in the bathroom, master bedroom ~rea of the Ryen

house.

401, 402, 403, 404, 405, 406, 407, 408, 409, 410,

411, 412.

THE COURT: All right. You can give them to Mrs.

Aguinaga, perhaps. They will be received.

(Exhibits No. 259 thru

262, 266 thru 289,

291 thru 309, 400 thru

412.>

MR. KOTTMEIER: Still within the Ryen house. 413, 414,

415,416,417.418,419.420,421,422,423,424,425,426,427,


" U j , -J ,. lJ

/~

~ ~

-- ..... --.~,....,,;-- .. --- -. __ . --. ~_'_-

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4692

428, 429, 430, 431, 432, 433, 434, 435, 438, 441, 454, 455, 456,

457, 458, 459, 460, 461, 462, 463, 465, 471, 472, 473, 474, 475,

476, 488, 489, 490 is a picture of shoes, it is

self-explanatory. 502, 532. The photograph of knives referred

to by Dr. Root.

The last set of small photographs, first of all,

four photographs of the Ryen station wagon interior. 478, 486,

487, excuse me. strike the four. It is 578, 586, 587 and 588.

And, finally, a photograph of the remains of A-fl,

identified by Dan Gregonis as 597.

MR. NEGUS: In addition, I had two more, 466 and 470.

THE COURT: All of those will be received.

(Exhibits No. 413 thru

435. 438, 441, 454 thru

463, 465, 466, 470 thru

476. 488 thru 490, 502,

532, 578, 586 thru 588,

597, ·received in

evidence.>

THE COURT: You pulled out one. Is there SOme reason for

that?

MR. KOTTMEIER: That is a demonstration that we showed

back in chambers that has not been marked.

THE COURT: Okay.

THE COURT: Counsel, I believe this is going ~o be the

end of our day when we finish all of this, so you can be packing

up your things. Do as you wish.


'n u I ,

I-' o J J

" U ·0 o

1

2

3

4 1

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 ,-

IS

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28 ~

4693

When they finished with any group of them, bailiff,

I would like to his see them, please.

MR. NEGUS: Can I approach the reporter for a second?

TdE COURT: Okay.

THE COURT: You may be wondering why I am not letting

part of you go. I thought of it, but I cannot, I can't permit

you to separate. I thought of it, but I can't do it.

Those of you that have finished, feel free to chat

amongst yourselves, if you wish, but not about the case.

All right, after that I'm sure you will all welcome

an early adjournment today.

So, we will break at this point until the hour of

9:30 tomorrow morning. I remind you again of the admonition and

don't discuss the case amongst yourselves or with any people, or

let them discuss it with you, or yet express or form an opinion

on the the matter until we finally submit it to you.

We will see you tomorrow at the 9:30. Thank you

very much.

(The jury retires from the courtroom.)


MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, there is one other matter I

would like to discuss with the court and counsel and defendant

in chambers on the record.

THE COURT: You can delay it a little bit longer, Mr.

Negus.

MR. NEGUS: I'm easy.

THE COURT: All right. We're all present in chambers.

Cor'.PUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

,-, U , , ,-, 'J -:, :J

" u ·0 .=t

.. ·-

/~

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

~. 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28 ~

MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, my office was contacted during

the last week in November of 1984, by an individual Guy, I

believe, Negrette, N-e-g-r-e-t-t-e, who informed us that he was

a probation officer for San Bernardino County and that be

informed us that he was present in the San Bernardino County

jail during the year of 1983, during the first week in August,

and informed us that he heard what we determined to be certain

admissions made by Mr. Cooper in a setting that appears to

perhaps have been an attorney-client interview, and we are

interested in litigating whether or not that admission would be

admissible to the jury in this case. And I think it would be

proper that we would litigate that in a chambers setting and not

in open court or in the presence of the jury.

What I would propose to do is find out from the

Court, first of all, when this week we wanted to litigate it,

and I could -- we have given Mr. Negus a copy of the discovery

as soon as that was completed.

I could have your clerk make a copy of the police

reports in which Mr. Negrette and other people were interviewed,

those be marked as an exhibit, and that would be the offer of

proof on behalf of the People as to the relevance of the

admissions and the context in which they were overheard.

And I think there would be a factual finding then

from the Court as to whether or not they were privileged within

the meaning of the attorney-client relationship or not.

Now, there may be a necessity to take other

testimony and we have done some preliminary research and could

have the balance of that finished today and inform the Court


" U , , ., o , :;

I ,

1

;1(e-xr /116-tT fl~I~(t. (;1(7' r-H 15' 46 9~

()"vt: what cases we would be relying on and then have some ruling from

2 the Court.

3

.. THE COURT: How much time do you need, Mr. Negus?

MR. NEGUS: I don't know, I haven't I wasn't aware

5 until just now that they were intending to try and use this. I

6 was under the impression that they probably weren't so I haven't

7 done any work on it, because --

8

9

THE COURT: I like your idea of letting me have your

offer of proof of police reports before I start researching as

10 well. I mean, it might be better under the circumstances --

II let's see, Monday is, we'll take it up say Thursday sometime, or

12 the following Monday, if that would be better, to give you more

13 time.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

MR. NEGUS: I think if they are serious about it, I think

I would rather have the following Monday.

MR. KOCHIS: The only reason we bring to it the Court's

attention, it is possible, in terms of an outside limit, in a

minimum at, a maximum, on the outside we would rest our case

Tuesday, the 18th. On the inside, if everything went extremely

smoothly. we could rest this Thursday.

THE COURT: Well, we could still

MR. KOCHIS: Or Monday. We had some witnesses, the

Handys, from Ventura. we have momentarily lost contact with

them. We might not have them until Monday.

THE COURT: Let's discuss it again tomorrow. Give me a

copy of the police reports and let me see what it is.

MR. KOCHIS: Does your clerk have the facility to

28 duplicate them?


~ ;~- .

~I' U I ,

,-, CI -, :I I , I ,

/~,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22 2

23

24

25

26

27

28

G:_...-.'j

kE"ttT '2- rt;-5 c...~fil {pc~G 4696

(78 ,HIS THE COURT: Oh, sure. Then should we have it for the

record marked in some fashion in a fashion that would insure the

jury would never get it?

THE COURT: I don't particularly see the need for it.

MR. NEGUS: Well, I think it is a good idea. If

anything, that's part of the record and should be marked,

somehow.

THE COURT: You have to mark it for identification. Just

use the next number in order. Make sure the jurors don't get to

it. It certainly is not going to be admitted into evidence as

far as the jurors are concerned.

MR. KOCHIS: There are two sets of reports. One by

Sergeant Arthur, one by Gary Woods.

THE COURT: Let's put them all together. I will give

she's to going duplicate it.

MR. NEGUS: One other thing that I suppose that this

particular thing brings up, which you should be aware of is,

that if it does come in, then probably I am going to have to be

a witness because I took notes as to all my interviews with Mr.

Cooper and will probably have to testify contrary to what Mr.

Negrette says. So, we have another problem that we should be

aware of.

I was going to make a Motion to Dismiss based on

that, but hadn't done any work on it. So, there'S a third

problem.

THE COURT: Well, okay, I haven't the foggiest idea at

this time. Wait until you look at it and let's get back to it

later on.


,-, U , , I-' o -, :I , ,

. ,-, U

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

-

4697

THE CLERK: The police reports will be marked as Exhibit

613.

THE COURT: For the Court only.

MR. KOTTMEIER: Your Honor, we also have, maybe an issue

as far as Josh is concerned. We will be prepared to make

decisions or offer the Court our position in that regard

tomorrow morning. But I am sure that regardless of what we do

one way or the other, you'll be interested in seeing the video

tape that we already have to make your decisions as far as how

to proceed.

THE COURT: Bear in mind, I think I mentioned, was it

this morning, that I had a curiosity as to how you came out.

That's a natural curiosity, which has absolutely no place in

this trial. I don't have to see it just for my idle curiosity

until SOme ruling I will have to make on it.

If you two people, three people are in agreement as

to how you present something, just run it by me.

MR. NEGUS: The only problem I have is, you know, my

willingness to use the tape. I have already communicated that.

I just want to IT~ke sure, for confrontation purposes, that I

would feel better if I had a chance to show it to Mr. Cooper

before I took a waiver of his right to it.

THE COURT: Sounds entirely reasonable. At some pOint we

want -- perhaps tomorrow we can view that. That is, Mr. Cooper,

myself and

MR. KOTTMEIER: What time does Mr. Cooper normally come

down in the morning?

THE BAILIFF: He's up here at 8:30.

CONPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

" U , , .~, o ~,

:I , , -:, :I

/' ----,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28 ------.."

4698

MR. KOTTMEIER: Why don't I, at least as far as that

portion of procedure, plan to be here at 8:30 tomorrow and then

I can at least make hopefully the materials available so this

can be accomplished.

THE COURT: How long does it run?

MR. KOTTMEIER: About an hour, 50 minutes.

MR. NEGUS: with the warm up it was, I think, less than

an hour.

THE COURT: That is agreeable with you Mr. Negus?

MR. NEGUS: Sure.

THE COURT: You can hook your machine up in chambers?

MR. KOTTMEIER: I would assume so, assuming it has an

ordinary --

THE COURT: I don't know how much viewing space you need

or distance, because I don't think it is something that should

go on out in court. I am just suggesting we can do the preview

tomorrow at 8:30 and then at least we have done that. Whether

Mr. Cooper wants to see it, Mr. Forbush, yourself or whoever

associated with the court, as long as it is not in public.

MR. KOTTMEIER: I agree. That's if I suggest

THE COURT: We're not sure how it is going to be

presented, so it ought to be here.

I will have him here, then we will have the viewing

in the morning.

MR. KOTTMEIER: Mr. Kochis has not seen it, as a result

he'S not in a position to see whether this is acceptable in lieu

of Josh. Once we have had a chance to view it together, we will

make a decision.


,,~; ,-, U , , .-, o -, :I , ,

·LI . ,

1

2

3

" 5

6

1

8

9 -10

11

12

13

~. 14

"- 15

16

11

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

21

28

.- 1 -. ~_ ... - ~ .. -&. ,'-~ .- •.. -......• ' - ..• -~ ... -.- ~ -. -

4699

THE COURT: That's fine. Okay. Thank you, gentlemen.


--00000-

(Adjournment)

COMPUTERIZED TRAl~SCRIPT

.:r

,i U

~ , o o J :J

~ , '. ,-:1

1 1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 I

'\ 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

-.- 27

28

(

"

4700

SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA, TUESPAY, PECEMBER 11, 1984. 9;35 A.M.

--00000--

<Chambers conference reported.)

THE COURT: We are in chambers, all counsel and Mr.

Cooper and Mr. Forbush. I just wanted the record to reflect

what has just occurred.

It's now about 25 minutes till 10:00 and we just

concluded the video tape with Josh Ryen. They were mostly

questions apparently by Hr. Kottmeier and a couple by Mr. Negus.

Mr. Negus, you were not here. Mr. Forbush was

here. He told me before we started that this was with your

permission. Is that right?

MR. NEGUS: Right, yeah. I was there so I didn't need to

see the tape.

THE COURT: Okay. You poked in about 9:15. Mr.

Kottmeier was here part of the time; most of the time he was out

as well.

Okay. Anything anybody wants to add before we get

ready to start with the jury this morning?

MR. KOTTMEIER: Not -- not at this time, your Honor. I

have fUrther discussions yet with Mr. Negus.

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. KO'l'TMEIER: So as far as the tape, I have n"othing to

add at this point.

THE COURT: I mean, are we ready to start outside? Who

is going to take the next witness? Mr. Kochis?

MR. KOCHIS: Yes.


" U , , I-' 13 :I ::J :I L

." U

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 /

/

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

/

\

4701

MR. NEGUS: Just one. This is a short thing on the

Negrette issue of the probation officer.

THE COURT: Yes. I haven't read that yet.

MR. NEGUS: Okay. what I would request, before we get

into complicated issues about attorney/client privilege which

may be involved there, that perhaps it would wise to consider

first what the -- what I consider to be a Jones issue, which

involves with the prosecution calling Mr. Negrette.

You will see in there that he took notes and·

destroyed them. And Jones vs. Superior Court, I forget the

exact cite but it's 145 or 146 Cal.App.3d and it was cited in

all that Hitch stuff that we did earlier. I would think perhaps

we could at least address the applicability of that particular

case and that might short circuit a whole bunch of stuff.

THE COURT: The idea being that Mr. Negrette having taken

notes and then intentionally destroyed the notes that anything

that reflected in the notes· should be suppressed?

MR. NEGUS: Right. That he can't testify as to that.

That seems to be the import of the Jones, and if

you think that applies to this particular fact situation that

might be dispositive.

THE COURT: Is that or 145 or 146 Cal.App.3d?

MR. NEGUS: That's the cite that I remembered. I didn't

happen to be able to fish out the precise cite. but it's cited

in I think both our points and authorities on the Bitch issue.

THE COURT: Okay. Let's go outside. Get the .jurors.


CO~:PUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

I

" U , , I~' CI ~,

J :I L , ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

", 15

16

·17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

i

"

4702

THE COURT: Good morning, everybody. Apparently you are

used to dealing ~ith water hear in San Diego and you are prompt

and attentive. Everybody again present.

Mr. Kochis, who is going to be next?

MR. KOCHIS: Brian Wraxall.

THE COURT: Come forward, please.

BRIAN WRAXALL,

called as a witness on behalf of the People, having been duly


THE CLERK: Thank you. Would you have a seat on the

witness stand. Would you state your full name for the record

and spell your last?

THE WITNESS: My name is Brian Wraxall and it's spelled

W-r-a-x-a-l-l.

THE CLERK: Thank you.

MR. KOCHIS: May I proceed, your Honor?

THE COURT: Certainly.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. KOCHIS:

o. ~r. Wraxall, what is your current occupation or

profession?

A. I'm a forensic serologist.

o. For whom?

A~ For the Serological Research Institute, which is

located in Emeryville which is near San Francisco in California.

O. And what type of organization is that?

COMPUTERIZED TPANSCRIPT

,-, U , , .-, o -, ~ ~, ,--

.:1 .L

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

(

4703

A. It's a nonprofit organization dedicated to research

in the forensic serology field.

Q. DO you have any education or training in the field

of serology?

A. Yes, I do. I was educated in England where I

obtained a Higher National Certificate in Applied Biology, which

would cover the subjects of Biochemistry, Microbiology, and

Physiology.

Q. Did you then become employed by any agency in which

you started working in this particular field?

A. Yes. I was employed by the Metropolitan Police

Forensic Science Laboratory which is located in London where for

the first two years I was trained in the analysis of biological

evidence.

After approximately two years I began to specialize

in serology. That would be 1965. And I have been doing

serology and specializing in serology ever since.

Q. How long did you remain in England employed in a

capacity in which you dealt with serology?

A. From 1963 when I started there until 1977 when I

came to this couintry.

Q. Did you come to this country in capacity in

conjunction, excuse me, with your profession?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. How did you come to come to this country?

A. I was invited here by the government to work on an

LEAA sponsored research project into bloodstain analysis. That

took approximately 18 months from 1977 to the middle of 1978.


"':- -."" ~'.'

1-' U , , 0 0 :I :J :I L :I :J

I (

i

J j

1

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 (

15

16

17 2

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

(

o. What was your role in that project?

A. First of all, I ~as there as a consultant

representing a crime laboratory in terms of the problems

associated with bloodstains.

4704

I then became the project leader in terms of the

development of the final project results.

O. Do you have any teaching experience in the area of

serology?

A. Yes.

O. What does that consist of?

A. Well, virtually since I started doing serology I

have also been teaching in terms of people who would want to

learn knew techniques and so on that we were developing.

After the LEAA project, for the first 12 months we

had another grant from the government to, in fact, conduct

training courses into the blood stain analysis research that we

had carried out. And for approximately 12 months I trained in

the region of approximately a hundred difference forensic

serologists in the blood stain analysis system. And since that

time I continue -- we have and on-going training program at the

Serological Research Institute into bloodstain analysis and

semen analysis.

O. Have you written any articles in the field of

serology which have been accepted for publication?

A. Yes.

O. Would you perhaps give the jury an example of one

or two of those?

A. Yes. I have written approximately a dozen


,-, U , , " o ~,

J ~, ,-.-

·LI ,

1

2

3

4

S

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

2S

26

27

28

(,

4705

different papers on the identification of different enzymes and

proteins in both semen and bloodstains.

Q. In your capacity as a serologist is one of the

tasks you would undertake, would that be the analysis of a drop

of blood to determine if it was -- a drop to determine if it was

a bloodstain?

A. Yes. That's virtually the bread and butter of what

we would do in terms of looking for bloodstains on garments,

clothing, scenes of crime, to be able to first of all identify

it as being blood, determine the species origin, as to whether

it's human or animal, and to go on into a blood grouping in

terms of looking at the genetic makeup of that bloodstain to be

able to compare that bloodstain with samples from individuals

who mayor may not be associated with the case.

Q. Are you also involved in testing other suspected

body fluid stains?

A. Yes. Semen, saliva, vaginal secretions are all the

types of body fluids that we would look at fairly routinely in

our laboratory.

Q. with a cigarette butt, if a cigarette butt is

suspected of being smoked -- having been smoked by an assailant,

for example, what would be the first type of test a serologist

such as yourself should perform on the cigarette butt to test

that hypothesis?

A. First of all, you would want to find if there was

any saliva present. One of the things you could look for is an

an enzyme known as amylase that is present in saliva in large

quantities. And if you detect that, that would certainly


" U , , c.' o -, J -, ,--

··C J

4706

indicate that saliva was present and therefore that that

cigarette had been smoked.

O. If you find the presence of amylase on a cigarette

butt, is that some indication that there is saliva on the butt?

A. Yes.

O. And from that can a serologist draw the inference

that at one time the cigarette butt had been in someone's mouth.

A. Yes.

Q. If you get a positive amylase result, are there

tests take that can be performed on the butt in an attempt to

determine, for example, the ABO blood group type of the donor of

this blood?

A. Yes.

Q. Are there likewise tests that can be performed on

the cigarette butt to determine whether or not a person who

placed his saliva on the cigarette butt is a secretor?

A. Yes.

Q. Would two of those testings be the

absorption-inhibition and absorption-elution test?

A. Yes.

O. NOW, in this case there's been previous testimony

that a serologist used the absorption-inhibition test to

determine whether or not the saliva on certain cigarette butts

carne from a secretor or not.

Would it be proper to start with that test?

A. Yes.

O. Why?

A. Because the absorption-inhibition not only tells


n u , , o o j ,:I -

.1-

.0

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 (

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

~

4707

you the ABO type, but it also tells you whether a person is a

secretor or not if the -- if the antigens or the blood group

substances are present.

The absorption-elution test is a more sensitive

test and would only tell you the ABO type. It will not give you

any information regarding whether the person is a secretor or a

nonsecretor.

Q. Are you aware of the frequency with which the

population is broken to in terms of secretors versus

nonsecretor?

A. Yes.

Q. And what is that?

A. Approximately 80 percent of the population is

secretors and the rest, 20 percent are nonsecretors.

Q. So, in terms of frequency, eight out of ten times

you should get a result if there's enough saliva present with

the absorption-inhibition?

A. Yes.

Q. And from that test you would be able to determine

first, if you get the positive result, that the person who

deposited that would be a secretor?

A. Yes, because if you got say, for example, you got A

substance and H substance present by absorption-inhibition, you

know two things, you know that the donor is an ABO type A and

also that he is a secretor because you found both the A and H

there, which indicates a secretor of an ABO type.

Q. Mr. Wraxall. one thing I neglected to cover in

terms of your qualifications, is this the first time you have


:n U , , J~' o :I J :I L , ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

1

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

~-~~ - 27

28

\

4708

ever testified in a court of law and as an expert in the area of

serology?

A. No.

o. Do you have an estimate as to how many times you

have testified in the past?

A. I think somewhere between 75 and 100 times I would

say.

Q. Have you testified for the defense as well as for

the prosecution?

A. Yes.

Q. Now in the particular case did you analyze samples

of blood of the five victims whose name appear on the chart,

which has been marked for identification as Exhibit 589, and the

defendant, Kevin Cooper?

A. I did.

Q. And would that have been in your laboratory in

Emeryville, California?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you conduct the ABO test on both of those

individuals -- on all of those individuals, excuse me?

A. Yes.

O. And among those individuals were two of them ABO

type A's?

A. Yes.

O. Was that Mr. Ryen and Mr. Cooper?

A. I believe that's correct. Yes.

Q. Now, were you able to determine the secretor status

of either of those people?


" r, u , , ,-, 0 -, J ~,

1-,-.,~,

0

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18 2

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

\

4709

A. No.

Q. Assuming hypothetically that another serologist has

testified that Mr. Ryen is a secretor and that Mr. Cooper is not

a secretor. and returning again to the issue of the cigarette

butts. if you had significant saliva on a cigarette butt that

was an ABO type A. would the only way to distinguish that saliva

from Mr. Ryen or Mr. Cooper be with the absorption-inhibition?

A. Yes. You would have to do an absorption-inhibition

test. and it depends on the result that you get.

If you get by absorption-inhibition A and H, or

just A, then you know that the saliva originates from somebody

what is an A secretor, which means that it could have originated

from Doug Ryen. but that means that it would not originate from

Kevin Cooper who is a nonsecretor.

Q. But if you would have just performed the

absorption-elution test, the result would be consistent with

either Mr. Ryen or Mr. Cooper?

A. That's correct.

Q. So. in this case the type of test that would allow

you to distinguish would be the absorption-inhibition?

A. Yes o

Q. Now. did you test the samples of the victims' blood

and the defendant's blood to determine their genetic profiles?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And do you have those results with you in the

courtroom?

A. I do.

Q. In addition to the systems which appear on this


rl U

I , ,-, o :I J ,:J -

.(,1

.;J

4710

1 exhibit, 589, did you also test in a system which Mr. Gregonis

2 does not run?

3

4

5

6

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yes.

And would that be the Gm system?

That's correct.

Starting first with Peggy Ryen, did you get a

7 sample of blood that was marked B-7?

8

9

A.

Q.

Yes.

And did you test in the group systems that are

10 indicated on the board?

11

12

A.

Q.

Yes.

Have you had any part in the development of the

13 multisystem?

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

A. Yes.

Q. How were involved in that?

A. That was part of the bloodstain analysis project

that I worked on. And the idea there was to take a large number

of the polymorphic genetic markers that were either currently in

use or about to be used on blood stains. They at that time were

done on an individual basis.

For example, the PGM and the esterase D, or EsD,

was all done individually. That means if you want to do a PGM

on a blood stain you would do one set of experiments. If you

want to do an esterase D you would do another set of

experiments.

What I did is try to combine some of these together

27 so that you could first of all save time and also, more

28 importantly in a blood stain, to be able to save material


,-, U

I I

I~I o ~I :I ~I

.:1 . ,-, LI

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15 ,

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

( \

4711

because if you could separate three enzymes all at the same time

on the same piece of material, you're basically saving three

times or two times the amount of sample-that you would use if

you were to do it on an individual system.

So what I did was just sort of put some of these

things together. And the designation up there, Group I, Group

II, Group III, and Group IV is all part of that set of

experiments to be able to try to put more than one genetic

marker or blood grouping system together.

Q. To your knowledge does Mr. Gregonis, who works for

the crime lab in San Bernadino, use your group system?

A. Yes.

Q. Is he the only serologist that you know of that

uses your group system?

A. No.

Q. Starting with Peggy Ryen again, in B-7 do you have

the profile you obtained when you analyzed her whole blood?

A. Yes.

Q. And the results as they appear on Exhibit 589, have

you had a chance to review those prior to taking the stand this

morning?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. When Peggy Ryen's blood was tested in your

laboratory, were any of the results inconsistent with the

results that appear on this chart?

A. NO.

Q. According to the test done by your laboratory then

with Peggy Ryen's blood, Mr. Gregonis made no mistakes?


.. ""~ "."

1-' U , , ,-, CI ~I :I -, :; , ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

I \

4712

A. That's correct.

Q. Did your laboratory also analyze a sample of blood

that came from Jessica Ryen?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have that profile with you in court?

A. I do.

Q. And in terms of the profile, the genetic profile

that your laboratory found, were there any inconsistencies when

you compare those against Jessica's profile on the chart?

A. No.

Q. So, as far as Jessica's blood was concerned, Mr.

Gregonis made no mistake when he analyzed that?

A. That's correct.

Q. Did you likewise -- did your laboratory analyze

Doug Ryen's blood to determine his genetic profile?

A. Yes.

Q. And are there any inconsistencies with -- any

inconsistencies that your laboratory found comparing them to the

profile that appears on the board adjacent to Mr. Ryen's name?

A. No.

Q. Did you analyze a sample of Chris Hughes's blood?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have that profile with you in court?

A. I do.

Q. And are there any inconsistencies with the results

Mr. Gregonis has which appear on the chart, 589, when you

compare those with the results of your lab?

A. No.


)

- ,-, U j , I ,

I .-, I 0 ) -,

J :I .J .:1 L

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4713

o. Joshua Ryen, was a sample of his blood analyzed by

your lab?

A. Yes •.

o. And have you had a chance to look at those results?

A. I did.

o. You had a chance to compare those to the results of

Josh Ruen's blood on Exhibit 589?

A. I have.

o. Are there any inconsistencies?

A. There are not.

o. Now, with Mr. Cooper's blood, taking the top line,

A, starting at your left the ABO A and ending with the

hemoglobin, I believe, A, and the EAP type RB, did you also

analyze Mr. Cooper's blood to determine his genetic profile?

A. Yes, I did.

O. With the top line as it appears, including the EAP

type RB, were there any inconsistencies between the results your

laboratory found and what Mr. Gregonis has on the chart?

A. No.

O. Mr. Cooper's EAP type is a what?

A. An RB.

O. Is he a B?

A. No.

O. Is there a difference between an RB and a B?

A. Yes, there is.

O. And could you tell the jury what the difference is?

A. Yeah. It's fairly subtle. I mean, the --

basically


'~~';'':-I

r--r, u

, , ( , I

1-' 1 13 1 =, I -, 1 -, I .:1

-:, .

_:J !

,

1

2

3

.. 5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14 "-

IS

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

I I,

4714

Do you have a chart with it -- with the bands on it

or would you like me to put one up, because it's easier to

explaining it with bands than to talk about it.

Q. Well, directing your attention to an exhibit whicb

has been marked for identification as Exhibit 591, would this

assist you?

A. Yes, it would.

The difference that we are looking for is up in

around this region. A type B consists of a band in what we call

the C position here, and a much stronger band in that sort of

posi tion there.

Up here in this region most samples do have what is

known as a fast phosphatase. That's a breakdown product of some

description that doesn't take part in the identity of the

particular phenotype of the sample.

You come to an RB, which is what this is listed at.

This is a weaker sample, so it's not a really good example to be

talking about because normally this is much stronger. What

happens here is that the R consists of two bands, one up in this

position and one up in this position here, which is in the same

position as the B in its ordinary type B.

So what you're looking for is something up in this

position here, which is different from the fast phosphatase.

This tends to be just a slightly slower moving band up here.

And what you have to do is to go to another system to be really

sure that you have a B or an RB.

Q. I wonder if we might break that down for a moment.

The slots or the, what appears to be almost


.. ' .. ":'~-,-, U , , ,-, a :J :t -, :I

·LI . ,

4715

straight lines on Exhibit 591, would though those represent on

an electrophoretic run the point of origin into which samples

are placed?

A. Yes. All the samples, each of these here are

different samples, and normally, in fact, it is put on little

pieces of cotton thread. The thread is soaked into the blood

and then put into these slots here. Then the movement is from

here to towards the top of this photograph.

Q. NOw, the first band, or the band closest towards

the origin, does that band have a name?

A. It's known by several names. I like to call it the

C band.

Q. NOw, would both the B and the RB have a band in the

C band position?

A. Yes, it would.

Q. Then the next band moving away from the point of

origin, is that, for example, at times called the B band?

A. Yes.

Q. Would both the B and the RB types have a band in

that position?

A. Yes, it WOUld.

Q. And then the furthest from the point of origin, the

furthest band in the B, would that be a storage band?

A. Yes.

Q. And then the RB, is that what we would call the R

band?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have to look in that portion of the plate to


r, u , , '---, CI -, :I --,

.:1 ··c .:J

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

'. : 27

28

4716

distinguish, for exa~ple, a B from an RB?

A. Yes, you do.

Q. While I have you at the chart, did you -- do you

have with you the Gm results for the victims and the defendant,

Hr. Cooper?

A. I do.

Q. In the blank space which appears

Perhaps the record could reflect that on 589 I'm

going to draw a blue line down the diagram.

Could you indicate perhaps at the top of that the

A. Yes. And what I will also do here is to put -Gm-

but I will also put in parenthesis Rl, 2, 3, 11.- That tells me

and everybody else the antigens that I tested for.

There are a number of them. These are the most

common, 1, 2, 3, and 11, but it indicates which antigens I

tested for. And in this case I tested four. And--

Q. What -- I'm sorry.

A. I was just going to go through and put the results

in.

Q. Could you perhaps write on the board, and as you do

that could you tell the jury what the Gm results were for the

victims and the defendants?

A. Yes.

For peggy Ryen again, I tested for 1, 2, 3, and 11.

And I got possiblE for 3 and 11, and so the result is written as

3 and II. This is virtually nearly any combination of 1, 2, 3,

and 11 as you will see as we get more results down here. There


" U , I

1-' o -, :; -, .:1 ·C (}

(

4

4717

1 are other types, and you will see the differences between them.

2 Now Jessica Ryen is also a 3, 11.

3 Doug Ryen is also a 3,11.

4 Christopher Hughes is a 1, 2, 3, 11.

S Joshua Ryen is a 3, 11.

6 And Kevin Cooper is 1, 11.

7 Basically what this means is that 1 and 2 in Peggy

8 Ryen's blood was negative, 3 and 11 was positive.

9 In Christopher Hughes 1, 3, and 11 were positive, 2

10 was negative.

11 And in Kevin Cooper's, 1 and 11 were positive, 2

12 and 3 were negative.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

Q. NOW, did you also perform an analysis on a sample

of blood that came to your laboratory that was taken from a

Michael Martinez?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you determine the Gm type of his blood?

A. I did.

Q. And what type is Mr. Martinez?

A. He is a Gm-l. In other words, he is 1 positive.

He is 2, 3, 11, negative.

Q. SO, if you could get a Gm result on a blood stain,

would it be possible to distinguish Mr. Martinez from the

victims in this case?

A. Yes.

Q. And Mr. Cooper?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you likewise analyze some stains that were


II U , , ,-, o ~,

:I -, .:1

. -, ,

(

4718

1 sent to you that were taken off of --

2 Well. did you actually get some pieces of evidence

3 with stains on them?

4

5

A.

Q.

Blood stains, yes.

And was one of those J-9, a rope which was taken

6 from a closet in the Lease home?

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

A. Yes.

Q. Now did you also determine the ABO type of Mr.

Martinez' blood?

A. I did.

Q. And is he a type A?

A. Excuse me.

Q. Is Mr. Martinez and ABO type A?

A. Yes, he is.

Q. So, would that put Doug Ryen, Kevin Cooper, and

Michael Hartinez in the same category as far as ABO type?

A. Yes.

Q. If you had a bloodstain and were only able to get

the ABO type, you would not be able to distinguish between those

three persons?

A. That's correct.

Q. If you, however. perform an ABO and a Gm result,

can you distinguish between all three of those people?

A. Yes, you can.

Q. NOW, what result did you get?

And perhaps I should indicate for the record that

27 we've also placed on the board Exhibit 593, which has the -J-28 series of stains.

cmlPUTERI ZED TRANSCRIPT

,1'.. •.

'-, U , , .-, o -:, :I , .J

. .-., .0 : "

(

(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

A.

Q.

A.

o. A.

Q.

A.

4719

Did you get a Gm result on J-9, the nylon rope?

Yes, I did.

When did you get that result?

Approximately first week in November of this year.

Of 1984?

That's correct.

Is Gm a fairly sturdy enzyme type?

It is. It's an antigen that has been' found to be

fairly resistant.

o. Assuming that the stain was deposited on the nylon

rope on either the late morning hours -- excuse me the late

12 evening hours of Saturday, June the 4th, or the early morning

13 hours of Sunday, June the 5th, that stain was still in a

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

condition that enabled. you to get a Gm result, 16,17 months

later?

A. Yes.

O. What Gm result did you get on J-9?

A. I got a result of 3, 11. Again, using Gm 1, 2, 3,

11. I obtained a result of 3, 11.

O. Could you perhaps indicate that on the chart on

Exhibit 593.

A. (Witness complied.)

Q. Now, among the -- among the persons that I

mentioned earlier that all have the ABO type A'S, Mr. Cooper,

Mr. Martinez, and Mr. Ryen, is that profile, an ABO type A and

26 the Gm type 3, 11. consistent with the profiles of either of

27 those three people?

28 A. Yes.


·r. u , , ,-, o -, J -, :I ,-, ~

(

o·

.~

(

1

2

3

4

5

.-'.-~.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

4720

HOw man~?

One.

Who?

Doug Ryen.

Could you perhaps place a blue circle around his

6 name?

7

8

9

10

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Right here?

Yes.

(Witness complied.)

NOw, based on those two results, the Gm result and

11 the ABO result, can you exclude, for example, can you say it is

12 biologically impossible for Mr. Martinez to have had his blood

13 placed on that rope?

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

A. Yes.

Q. Can you likewise exclude, biologically, Kevin

Cooper from that stain?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you draw a line through his name.


Q. You may resume your seat for a moment.

Now did you also perform the Gm tests on A-3, the

rope that was found in the driveway outside the Ryen home?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What result, if any, did you get?

A. On the Gm on two areas that I tested I got 3, 11

result.

Q. Is that consistent with the blood type in terms of

28 Gm of any of the victims?


......... ?'. r, u , , o o :I :J LI . , .., U

1

2

3

4

5

6

1

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

11

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

21

28

(

4721

A. Yes.

Q. Which victims?

A. Four out of the five victims. That would be all of

the Ryens are all 3, 11.

Q. But it's not consistent with Chris Hughes?

A. That's correct.

Q. Did you likewise perform some tests on a section of

a green blanket which had the laboratory identification number

of J-13?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What type of test did you perform?

A. I basically looked at the There was semen

present and I was looking for the ABO and secretor status.

Q. Were you able to determine the ABO status of the

person that deposited that semen stain?

A. Yes.

Q. And was that an ABO type A?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Were you likewise able to determine the secretor

status?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was that?

A. It was a nonsecretor.

Q. Between Mr. Ryen and Mr. Cooper, is that stain

inconsistent with being deposited by Mr. Ryen?

A. I think he is an A secretor, in which case that

would be inconsistent.

Q. And in Mr. Cooper's case, assuming that another


.,.:".

'-, U , , I-' o -, :J U , , ,

1

2

3

.. 5-o _

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24 5

25

26

27

28

(

4722

serologist has testified --

Well, you know Mr. Cooper's secretor status, don't

you?

A. Yes.

o. He is a nonsecretor?

A. That's correct.

O. And that stain is consistent with being deposited

by him serologically; is that correct?

A. Yes, it is.

O. NOW, did you likewise attempt to perform some tests

on two cigarette butts which bore the laboratory identification

numbers V-12, which appeared to be a hand-rolled cigarette, and

V-17, which appeared to be a manufactured cigarette butt?

A. Yes.

Q. NOW, on V-12, what type of test did you perform

first?

A. I looked for some -- the presence of amylase. I

also did an absorption-inhibition and an absorption-elution

test.

Q. Did you find the presence of amylase?

A. Yes, I did.

O. Was that consistent with saliva being on that

cigarette butt?

A. Yes.

O. And would that inferentially be consistent with

that cigarette butt at some point being in a person's mouth,

being smoked?

A. Yes.


.,.. . -: ..

" U , , o o :J :J '_1 - ,

-:I t:

1

(

4723

1 Q. Now, did you attempted to determine the secretor

2 status of the person that put his saliva on that particular

3 cigarette butt, V-12?

4

5

A.

Q.

I did.

When you performed the absorption-inhibition, did

6 you find any antigens?

7

8

9

A. I did not.

Q. Did you When you did the amylase test, were you

able to quantify the amount of amylase that was on the cigarette

10 butt?

11 A. Only very loosely. It's not a good quantitation.

12 It just gives an idea of the amount that is present.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

Q. If saliva was on a cigarette butt and it was placed

there by a secretor, a person that secretes their antigens,

would you expect to find that in an absorption-inhibition test

if you have enough saliva on the butt?

A. Yes. But not necessarily, if we don't have a

correlation between the amount of saliva that is required and

the presence of ABO antigens from a secretor. Because there are

certain persons who secrete at a low level and other people who

secrete higher levels.

We don't have that correlation at this pOint

between the two, i.e., the amount of saliva present and the

amount of antigens or blood group substance that you would

expect to find.

Q. If you would have found the antigens, would you

27 have been able to determine from that it came from a person who

28 is a secretor?


.,-, .u ,

I ,-., o -, J U

" , ". :I .::1

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

·18

19

20

21

22·

23

24

25

26

----27

28

I

"

/

4724

A. Oh, yes. If you found an A and H, for example.

Q. But you didn't find that in this case.

A. That's right.

Q. Did you then attempt to perform the more sensitive

test, the elution test on V-12?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you able to get a result?

A. No.

Q. Do you have an explanation as to why you didn't get

a result?

A. Yes. there is several possibilities, one being

just the quantity present. It may -- there wasn't a lot there.

It wasn't as though there was a lot of saliva present. There

was sort of medium amounts. And it may be that there was just

not enough there for me to be able to detect it.

Q. Did you likewise perform some tes·ts on what

appeared to be the manufactured cigarette butt, V-17?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you perform attempts to look for amylase?

A. Yes.

Q. What were your results?

A. There was amylase present in one area, it was

fairly small, and the other area there was a reasonable amount

of amylase present.

Q. Did you then perform the inhibition test on V-17?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you able to determine the secretor status of

the person who put their saliva on that cigarette butt?


n u

I , ,-, CI ~I :I LI . , ·LI . ,

, l

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14 --

IS

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4725

A. No.

Q. l-ihy not?

A. The results were inconclusive. I was working with

very small amounts and I could not determine any result from my

experiments.

Q. Did you find, when you did the inhibition test, did

you find any A antigens?

A. NO.

Q. Did you perform the elution test on that cigarette

butt?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the more sensitive test?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And in terms of ABO blood group type it is more

sensi tive?

A. Yes.

Q. But it will not provide information as a secretor.

A. Yes, sir, because -- no, because you can find very

small amounts of an ABO type even from a nonsecretor.

Q. On V-17 were you able to determine the ABO blood

group type of the person that put their saliva on that cigarette

butt?

A. Yes.

Q. What type was it?

A. ABO type A.

Q. That is consistent with the blood type of Mr.

Cooper I is it not?

A. It is.


" U , , o CI -, :I LI

- , ,

.'~

1

2

-3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

( \

4726

O. Did you also perform some electrophoretic tests on

a series of stains that were marked UU?

A. Yes.

O. Which of those stains did you analyze?

A. There was a series from UU-l through UU-16, and I

looked at them all and isolated ones which I felt were going to

give me the best chance of success, and I looked at 2, 5, 6, 9,

15 and 16.

O. Were you only able to get an electrophoretic enzyme

result on two of those?

A. That seems correct, yes.

O. Which particular enzyme or serum protein did you

look for?

A. I looked for the serum protein in transferrin and

Gc.

Q. Which result were you able to get on UU-9 and UU

IS?

A. The Gc results were all negative, and I got a

transferrin C result on 9 and 15.

O. And is it fair to say that 2, 5, 6 and 16, you

could not get a result?

A. That's correct.

O. The transferrin type of C, is that consistent with

the transferrin type of any of the victims in this case?

A. Yes. All of them.

O. Mr. Wraxall, in regard to the procedure that is

employed in a electrophoretic run, do you, in your laboratory,

take photographs of a run after it is completed?


'-" U I ,

,-, Q -, :I LI ,

-. ,.0

(

\

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16 2

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4727

A. Most of them, yes. The Gc, transferrin no, because

that can be preserved, dried down and kept.

But all the other electrophoretic runs we in fact

take photographs, Polaroid photographs of them.

Q. Have you had occasion in the past, as a serologist,

to review your photographs after you have had the plate come up?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you always see everything in the photograph

which you can see on the plate?

A. No.

Q. Have you had occasions in the past where you could

call a particular enzyme or serum protein off the plate but

would be unable to make the call with that same run from the

picture you took of the run?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it acceptable procedure, for example, from the

forensic science community, to make a call off a plate, if you

can read the plate, and yet be unable to make the call off the

photograph of that plate?

A. Yes. I mean, a photograph that you are talking --

first all, it is a normal polaroid, it is because it is very, a

very -- you can have an instance result. It is very high speed

film and therefore the contrast and the result that you get on

that type of photograph is not comparable to the actual original

that you are photographing.

Q. Is there a reason Polaroid-type film is used as

opposed to .35 millimeter negative film?

A. It is just quicker. As you have said, you have got


.. I-' U , , I-' o -, :I U . ,

. -, ,

(

4728

1 that instant result.

2 I would feel uncomfortable, although I know some

3 people do that have taken .35 millimeter and then, you know, put

4 a lot of different runs on the plate, or on the film, then when

5 you corne to develop it there is some problem with the film, you

6 have lost all the results.

7 Using the Polaroid, I can then go straight into my

8 notebook against the protocal so I have it right there.

9 Q. Directing your attention to your Group I system, is

10 that the system on which both the PGM and the EsD are run?

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

A. That's correct.

Q. And between those two which one is read first?

A. The esterase D.

Q. And that is shortened for EsD?

A. EsD will do.

Q. Routinely between the two, the PGM and the EsD,

which one gives us a stronger reading on an electrophoretic

plate, or do either one?

A. That will vary with the sample. PGM is normally

the more stable of the two enzymes, and so you can get instances

where you don't see any esterase D, but you get a PGM result

because they are two independent enzymes. One is more stable

than other. Occasionally you get a situation where you have an

esterase 0 result and you don't see a PGM result.

Q. Have you had occasions in the past, on an

electrophoretic run, where your PGM result, ~he result you read

27 second, may be weaker or fainter than your EsD result?

28 A •. Yes.


" U I ,

I-' o -, :; LI ,

'-1=1. -,

~

1

2

3

4

5

6

7 1

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 (

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4729

Q. Is there -- is it unacceptable in the forensic

community to rr.ake a PGH call if it happens to be weaker than

your EsD reading?

A. As long as you interpret the pattern correctly in

terms that you don't try to look for something that's not there.

But if the banding pattern is there, and you can see it, then

you should be able to call it.

Q. For example, Kr. Wraxall, directing your attention

to Exhibit 591, which shows the different enzyme system, EAP,

and directing your attention to the B phenotype, which appears

at the far left.

Do all the B'S, for example, always appear as

bright as the B does on this particular photograph?

A. No. I mean, if you have a weaker stain, or a

sample that is degrading a bit, you know, that result may be

very weak.

Q. Is it acceptable to call enzyme types which may not

be as bright as, for example, as that enzyme type, as long as

you have the required number of interprative bands present?

A. Yes. For exarr:ple, on the EAP type you can see the

B band is very much stronger than the C band, and you should not

call just the presence of that B band because you can get into

problems in terms of differentiating a Band BA, if you have

weak samples. If you have two bands and the B. and C, then it is

fine to calIon that.

Q. On this particular exhibit, if the band in the B

band position was as intense as it is in this photograph, but

you have got no band whatsoever in the band closest to the


:'''~~r:=

n~-··

u I ,

.--, o :I J LI , .--, :I

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4730

origin of the C band, that should not be called.

A. That's correct.

MR. KOCHIS: Thank you. I have no further questions,

your Honor.

THE COURT: Counsel.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY. MR. NEGUS:

Q. Mr. Wraxall, your particular institute for which

you are employed shares facilities with another serological

organization1 is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. That is, you use some of the same laboratory space

in the same laboratory as the organization for which Ed Blake is

employed.

A. That's correct.

Q. And in fact you have been acquainted with Yor. Blake

and exchanged scientific formation Over a long period of time --

A. Yes.

Q. is that also correct?

In this particular case, you were orginally asked

to work for the prosecution with respect to testimony about the

multisystem in general without any specific application on this

case1 is that right?

A. That's correct.

Q. And you were so employed, I believe it would have

been in around April or so of 1984.

A. That's correct.


,-, U , , o (}

:J ,-.:1

" u

c

4731

1 o. When did you actually begin to be consulted by the

2 prosecution, asked by them to do actual case work on this

3 particular case?

4 A. Um, give me a minute, I will try to find out when

5 was the first time I received some evidence.

6 That would have been in early -- late June, early

7 July of this year.

8

9

10

o. At that point in time were you asked in late June

or early July to rerun Kevin Cooper's blood.

A. Yes. It may have been a little bit later on but

11 certainly within that time frame, yeah.

12 o. Okay. well, when did you -- did you actually, for

13 example, do your Group II test on Kevin Cooper's blood?

14 A. I can't tell you the exact date of doing that. It

15 was probably closer to October or November than back in June or

16 July.

17 o. Actually before you were ever approached by the

18 prosecution in this parti~u1ar case, you had heard at least some

19 things about it from Mr. Blake.

20

21

22

23

A.

o. A.

o.

Yes.

Just in the course of chatting back and forth.

Yes.

When -- when you were first consulted by the, by

24 the prosecution, that was primarily just at the initial, at the

25 initial consultation about doing case work on the case, that was

26 with respect to the cigarette butts that we have talking about,

27 is that right?

28 A. Yes.


". ;.~'.

" U I ,

,-, 0 -, :I .-."3 , ,

'.¥..

(

4732

1 o. And at some point in time you received some fresh

2 saliva s~ples from Mr. Cooper.

3

4

A.

Q.

That's correct.

And you independently anaylzed those at the same

5 time that you did -- that you did the work on the various

6 cigarette butts; is that right?

7

8

9

A. Yes.

Q. While you were doing the work on the cigarette

butts you ~ere in consultation with both Mr. Gregonis and with

10 Dr. Blake; is that right?

11 A. I assume so. I'm not sure of whether -- yeah, I

12 assume that that was correct. Yes.

13 Q. That is, you were the one who was primarily doing

14 the work but Dan flew up to Emeryville and Ed was talking to you

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

about it on my behalf while you were doing the work.

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. And you in fact allowed Ed to have access to your

notes and to inspect your results as they came up.

A. Absolutely. yes.

Q. NOW, as to the, as to the Gm system.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. In terms, of a quantity of blood or the quantity of

a bloodstain and the takes, in order to do the four antigens

that you tested on the Gm system. does that take more or less

than it would to do an electrophoretic run?

A. It quite often takes less. The Gm is present in

27 the serum as opposed to the red blood cells, and my experience

28 has been that you can quite often get a Gm result where you


n u I ,

,-, CI -, :J ,-:I

. ~I ,--

2

(

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

4733

cannot get any of the proteins or enzyme systems.

Q. In terms of just quantity rather than age?

A. Yeah. In both.

Q. And the antigens will definitely last longer than

most.

A. Yes.

Q. Can you estimate how much quantity it took you to

get that result when you were tes ting J-9, the hunk of rope?

A. Well. the stains on the J-9 were fairly superficial

10 and either -- that is, they did not soak way into the rope.

11 They were a light reddish-brownish color. They were not very

12 heavy stains, I would say.

13 The color of the extract was pre~ty close to being

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

colorless. I mean, there was not a lot of color coming out of

the stains when I extracted them. I can't give you volume.

I would say that they weren't very strong.

Q. Did -- did you receive basically some information

about the history of that rope before you analyzed it?

A. The only information I received was that it was

found in what was called the Lease house and that there was a

ABO type A reaction that had been gotten off of the bloodstains

on tha trope.

Q. Were you informed that it had been frozen from the

time of its seizure up until the time of its shipment to you?

A. I can't recall whether I was told that or not.

Q. Once you received it in your laboratory, did you

27 immediately analyze it or did you put it in the freezer until

28 such time as you could get to it?


I

. ..... ~ ; h:~~\"''''

rl U , , ,-, CI -, :I ,J

. -,

.~

4734

A. I put it in the freezer.

Q. On all of the -- on all of the -- on all of the

cigarette butts, wherever they went to, that you analyzed, you

did both a somewhat quantitative amylase test and the

absorption-inhibition test; is that right?

A. That's correct.

Q. And even though you got positive on the amylase and

negative on the absorption-inhibition, urn, you did not feel that

that justified in making -- your making a call of a nonsecretor1

is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And basically that is just not a scientific

reliable thing to do; is that correct?

A. It is basically based on the fact that we don't

know, as I said earlier, the relationship between the amount of

amylase and the amount of ABO blood group substance from the

secretor. If we knew that then we might be able to call that

sort of situation. But we don't know that information.

Q. Did you also attempt to do, besides the

absorption-inhibition test for the ABO substances, and the

absorption-elution test for ABO substance, did you also attempt

on those cigarette butts, attempt another system called the

Lewis antigens?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And basically, as on both the cigarette butts your

results on that particular system likewise were inconclusive.

A. Yes.

Q. Was that likewise because you didn't have enough


. ,-, U

I , o (J

:I :J .J LI ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4735

sample?

A. That -- yes. The results that I obtained were very

weak, and there was not just enough material there for me to be I able to do further work to make a much firmer conclusion.

Q. So, basically, it is important if you have

ambiguous results or not enough sample present, as a serologist,

to not make a calli is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. That in fact is one of the things that is most

important about assuring accurate results in serology is if

evidence is ambiguous, or too weak to be sure, that you just

don't make a call.

A. That's correct.

Q. The cigarette butts that you received, did they

both have a portion of the paper which had already been removed

from them?

A. Yes.

Q. As to both of them, was the portion of the

cigarette butt which was most likely to be informative the part

that had been removed?

A. Yes.

Q. In your opinion, would, at least what you saw, have

been consistent with the fact that that portion has been

consumed, would .that be a reason for your not getting conclusive

results on your testing?

A. Yes.

Q. The multisystem that you have developed, you put

out a publication or series of publications, but you put out a

CQfoiPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

rl U , , " CI ~,

:I ,-J ,-:t

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

C 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25 3

26

27 ~

28

4736

publication describing the multisystem as part of the original

grant when you were essentially working for the Beckman

Instrument Corporation; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And in that particular, that particular

publication, did you describe the -- well, with respect to EAP

there is three major alleles to A, Band Ci is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Then there are two, what are rather less alleles

because they exist in a much smaller population, the R and the

D.

A. That's correct.

Q. Did you describe in your publication, describe the

multisystem which you submitted to Beckman, that using the

multisystem the R and the D variance are separated? That is,

you can tell them apart from the other things and are easily

identified?

A. I don't remember saying easily identified. But

certainly I believe I said that they were separated.

Q. Showing you a Xeroxed copy of what I believe is

your own personal copy, stolen by Mr. Blake, of that particular

report. It does indicate that the rare variance type Rand D

are separated in this system and are easily identified.

A. Yes.

Q. On this particular exhibit here of the EAP types,

Exhibit 591. directing your attention to the CB, the example

they have, placed on the -- Mr. Gregonis has placed on this

particular chart, the storage band in the CB is fairly faintJ is


'n u , , o o -, :I ,-.:1

',1: (J

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4737

that right?

A. Yes. In that particular sample, yes.

Q. Generally if you have a fresh sample, and then you

freshen it up with what I call a freshner upper, such as

mercaptoethanol, you are not going to have very much showing up

there in the storage band area; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So, for that fresh sample that had been treated

with mercaptoethanol, that kind of a result on the CB would be

more typical than the one that's shown on the B; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. In fact, does the B look like it may well be an

untreated sample? That is, a sample not treated with

mercaptoethanol.

A. It is possible it is a very strong sample. That

fast phosphatase is pretty strong.

Q. CB -- well, also the CB, the RB and the B would all

have bands in all three positio~s; is that right, normally?

A. It can have that, certainly • ., Q. CB will have bands in exactly the same position as

the B if it is the same age and condition of deterioration; is

that right?

A. Yeah. The fast phosphatase will vary between

samples quite markedly.

If you look at CB and compare it to the B, they do

look very different. Not even worrying about the intensity of

the C and B band, such as the intensity of the fast phosphatase,

it is quite different.


on u , , CI o :I J ,-J

° -, ,

(

(

"

4738

1 Q. That is just in a normal situation where you don't

2 even have rare variance, B, CB and C, you are going to be

3 looking for bands in the exact same positions that you would get

4 RB; is that right?

5

6

A.

Q.

Yes.

The only -- the difference between them, when you

7 train yourself to observe it, is the difference in the

8 intensities?

9

10

A.

Q.

Yes.

There is sizeable literature in making EAP calls

11 what you have to do about the intensities of the bands; is that

12 right?

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

A. Yes.

Q. In fact, you have even contributed to that

literature.

A. Yes.

Q. That was and your contribution was in a news

letter made available to essentially forensic serologitsts in

this country called the -Forensic Serology News·?

A. That's one. But prior to that I had also published

a paper on EAP typing and bloodstains.

Q. That was the particular problems with having

intensities. There was a little piece that you published in a

news letter; is that right?

A. That's correct, yes.

Q. When you take pictures you use a Polaroid so you

27 can compare the photograph with the plate.

28 A. Normally.

cmlPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

:rl U

I , ,-, 13 -, :I ,-.J ·CI o

(

i \

( 1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4739

Q. If in fact you look at the photograph and you see

that what's present on the plate doesn't show up in the

photograph, do you make a note to that effect?

A. Not necessarily.

Q. Sometimes?

A. You might, but generally speaking, not.

Q. You do however check to make sure at least in your

own mind what you have on the plate versus what you have on the

photograph, you make a mental note to yourself.

A. Yeah. You tend to look at the photograph and see

whether you have got as accurate a representation as you can

get.

For example, if you overexpose or underexpose, then

you would redo the photograph. If you can't read anything from

the photograph itself, then its worthless.

Q. You said that occasionally that an EsD result would

be less than a PGM.

If you had a situation where over a period of, oh,

say five or six runs over, you know, less -- less than a week,

you were consistently getting ESD plates that were considerably

stronger than your PGM plates, not just individual samples,

would that lead you to suspect that perhaps the G6PD that you

were using in determining your PGM was deteriorating?

A. Yes.

Q. You would then change the G6PD.

A. Yes.

Q. Are you generally familiar with the population

genetics of Gm?


,-, U , , ,-, o -, 3 ,-:r

·.C' .:1

/

(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27 --28

(

4740

A. Yes.

Q. What percentage of the Caucasian population has the

two antigens 3 and 11 and doesn't have 1 and 2?

A. Could I get the population data from my briefcase?

o. Sure.

A. You want the Caucasian population?

O. That was my starting point.

A. Okay. You wanted the percentage that are 3, II?

O. That is, the percentage of the sample that you

found on J-9 there.

A. Okay. It is approximately thirty-eight percent.

O. What about the black population?

A. The black population is going to be very, very low.

Approximately three percent.

O. And do you have figures for the Hispanic

population?

A. No.

O. What about the Asian-American?

A. No, I don't have them with me.

THE COURT: Would this be a good time, Mr. Negus?

MR. NEGUS: I think I was just about to look at my notes

and say that was all, I think.

O. One last thing. Were you ever sent any samples to

analyze of a gentleman named Milton Bulau?

A. No.

MR. NEGUS: Nothing further o

MR. KOCHIS: I am going to have some redirect. I can do

it now.


" U , I

,--, Q , :J ,-a .. , u

(

1 ~

2

3

4

5

6

1

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 (

15

16

11

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

21

28

4141

THE COURT: Go ahead.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. KOCHIS:

Q. with one exception, if I have to have him do a

calculation.

So there is no confusion in the jury's mind on the

EAP types with the types Mr. Negus talked to you about, the CB,

the B, and the C, one of the differences would be in the C type,

the band closest to the point of origin, the C band is brighter

than at the second band or B band.

A. Yes. The difference between bet~een the B, the CB

and the C is the difference in the intensity of those two bands.

Q. SO, I was going break those down.

with the C, would that be, for example, the band

closest to the origin is the most intense. We talked about

intense brightness.

A. Correct.

Q. With CB the theory is that the two bands, the C

band and the B band will be of equal brightness or intensityl

A. Yes.

o. With the B, the second band, or the B band is

supposed to be the most intense of the two bands.

A. That's correct.

o. In fact often times twice as intense.

A. Yes.

O. If your G6PD is degraded to the point where it is

ineffective, would you expect to get a PGK result at all?

COr,PUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

rl U , , CI o :I J I: o , ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

, I \

4742

A. No.

Q. You just would see ~hat, nothing on the plate?

A. That's correct.

Q. If you get a PGM result, but it happens to be not a

textbook result or not as strong a result in a picture as in a

textbook, is that an indication that your G6PD is functioning?

A. Oh, certainly. I mean -- the function that G6PD

is if you don't have a G6PD there at all in the reaction you

don't get any result.

So, one of the most common problems where you see

no result is that the G6PD is either degraded or going off.

Q. Return~~~~2l~~gUS asked you a

question about the~ie~of the particular Gm type in

the Caucasian population and you said it is approximately

thirty-eight percent.

A. That's correct.

Q. Would you be aware of the approximate frequency

'with ~hich a profile appears in the population in which the ABO

type is an A, ADA, AK types 1, CA II type is 1, Gm type is a 3,

ll.

A. Yes. I could work it out. It won't take very

long. I will get my calculater and do it right now.

THE COURT: Would you like to do it now?


THE WITNESS: It won't take me but a few minutes.

Okay. I will use the figures for a ABO type A of

forty percent, and ADA 1 as ninety percent, and the AK 1 is

ninety percent, and the CA II is going to be a hundred percent

Cor-;PUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

,.". r, u , , 1-' o -, :I Ie ~,

c

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

\1 14

" 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4743

in Caucasian, and then the Gm 3, 11 is thirty-eight percent, and

we get a combination of twelve point three percent

approximately.

BY MR. KOCHIS:

Q. On your system. on the multisystem, with the EAP,

if you receive an indication that a sample may be an RB as

opposed to a B, could that confirm that you would would you

want to run that on a separate system?

A. Yes.

MR. KOCHIS: I have nothing else.

RECROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. When G6PD is used, and if you just keep using and

using it, for example, and don't ever change it, will it

eventually start to deteriorate first and then go off

completely?

A. Yes. But you have only a small amount. Normally

you only have a small amount to start with, because that's the

way it is sold in terms of one milliliter, which is fairly

small.

Q. If you had a laboratory that used approximately a

bottle a month, the G6PD could start to go towards the end of

that month and you might get a deterioration in quality; is that

right?

A. possibly.

MR. NEGUS: That's it.

MR. KOCHIS: I have no redirect.

COHPUTERIZED TRANSC1~IPT

..,. ~~~-,.,.~~,;"

.- ,-, U

I I ,-,

o :I J ,-o .:1 .J

1

',--

\

1

2

4744

THE COURT: You have further witnesses this morning?

MR. KOCHIS: I hOFe to have a witness outside right now

3 that I will try to mark some exhibits with.

4

S

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

2S

26

27

28

THE COURT: Take the morning recess.

We thank you very much for, Mr. Wraxal1.

Remember the admonition, ladies and gentlemen.

(Recess)

... :ti!onLlblled o:n::=Page 4755, 1iothil"l~ cOlIi!tea.) _


'-, U , , ,-, o :I ~ .o

',U ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4745


THE COURT: We are in chambers now. Defendant is not

present.

MR. KOCHIS: I just wanted to alert the Court.

THE COURT: Is it okay if we proceed without the

defendant, Mr. Negus?

MR. NEGUS: Yes.

MR. KOCHIS: Ms. Punter is scheduled to be my next

witness. She is in the courtroom. She may not last until

Following her is William Baird. He will not be here until

noon.

noon.

THE COURT: So let's put the lady on, then we will have

to break.

MR. KOCHIS: Yes. And I need -- I may need one more

minute in that the clerk was still marking exhibits, or are they

complete?

not?

THE CLERK: I marked the exhibits that you gave me.

MR. KOCHIS: Fine.

THE COURT: Let's go.


THE COURT: Mr. Kochis.

MR. KOCHIS: Ann punter, your Honor.

THE COURT: I think you were previously sworn, were you

THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, I was.

THE COURT: Just resume the chair, you will remain under

oath, and state your name again for the record, please.

THE WITNESS: Ann Punter, P-u-n-t-e-r.


•.. ~ .

" U , , ,-, o , :I ,-a ·c .:::1

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 (

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

(

4746

THE COURT: Thank you

ANN PUNTER,

called as a witness on behalf of the People having been

previously duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified further

as follows:

FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. KOCHIS:

Q. l-1rs. Punter, in performance of your duties did you

attend the autopsies of the victims in this case which took

place on Monday, June the 7th -- excuse me -- Monday, June the

6th, and Tuesday, June the 7th, of 1984?

A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. And was part of your purpose for being at those

autopsies to take the known fingerprints of the victims to later

use in analysis?

A. Yes, sir, it was.

Q. And on Monday, the 6th of June, did you take

samples of the known prints from the two women, Mrs. Ryen and

her daughter Jessica?

A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. And the following day, on Tuesday, did you take

prints of Mr. Hughes -- excuse me, Mr. Ryen and Chris Hughes?

A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. And since that time have you also received the

known fingerprints of Joshua Ryen; the survivor?

A. Yes, I did.


1-' U , , o 1:1 :J :I .o

·C .0

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

(

4747

Q. Now in addition to those known prints, did you also

receive known fingerprints of some of the persons who had

occupied, for example, the Lease home at one time?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Would that have included Kathy Bilbia?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Virginia Lang?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you also receive the known prints of some

of the officers that happened to be in the Lease house, for

example, Mr. Duffy?

A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. Mr. Roper?

A. Yea, I did.

Q. Mr. Moran?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. NOw, in processing did you compare unknown

fingerprints with known fingerprints in essentially three

locations, the Ryen home, the 2991 residence, and the Ryen

sta tion wagon?

A. 11m not familiar with the numbers, but I refer to

them as the Ryen residence, the Lease residence, and the Ryen

vehicle.

Q. And did those, for example, did those prints fall

into essentially three categories?

A. Yes, sir, they did.

Q. When you talk about an elimination, is that

synonymous, does it mean the same thing as making an


,-, U , , ,~,

o -:, :; ,o

. -, ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

(

-4748

identification?

A. Yes, sir, it does.

Q. For example, if you can take an unknown

fingerprint, compare it to the known fingerprint of Kathy

Bilbia, if you identify the unknown prints as being left by Ms.

Bi1bia, is that called an elimination to Ms. Bi1bia?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. Likewise, when you identified the footprint in the

shower from the Lease horne as being the footprint from Mr.

Cooper, was that print in essence eliminated to Mr. Cooper?


Q. Was there a category of prints then in each of the

three locations, the Lease hosue, the Ryen house, and the Ryen

vehicle, in which you could identify an un~nown print to a known

print?

A. Yes, sir, there were.

Q. Then were there a series of prints which are,

because of the condition of the print itself, the unknown print,

it was not of a quality sufficient to make a comparison?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then were there some prints that there was

enough of a print there, and as of this time you have not

identified that print to the known prints that you have in this

case?

A. That's correct.

Q. Now, directing your attention to a series of three

exhibits which have been marked for identification as 614-A,

614-B, and 614-C, do you recognize what these are Xerox copies


" U , , ,~,

o :I ::J ,-o ·0 (}

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

( , \

4749

of?

A. Yes, sir, I do.

Q. And are those Xerox copies of the unknown prints

that were lifted from the Ryen horne?

A. Yes, sir, they are.

Q. Does 6l4-A, is that a list of the prints that you

have identified to a person?


Q. And on that particular exhibit on the second page,

do you list by the date at which the print was lifted, the time

at which it was lifted, and then the person to whom it has been

identified to?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is 6l4-B a list of the prints from the Ryen home

which are not suitable for comparison with a known print?


Q. And then is 6l4-C a Xerox copy of the prints which

were lifted from the Ryen horne to which you have not made an

e limi na tion?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you had a chance to compare these with the

originals?

A. Yes.

Q. And do they appear to be accurate?


Q. Directing your attention to the next series of

exhibits, 615-A, 615-B, and 6l5-C, are these Xerox copies of the

unknown prints which were lifted from the Lease home?


I-' U , , ,--, o --, :J ,-a

'·0 .:::1

1 .. "

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

4750

A. Yes, sir, they are •

O. And starting with 61S-A, is that a list of the

Xeroxes of the prints that were taken from the Lease home that

you have been able to identify?

A. Yes p sir.

O. And have you by da te, time, .and the identi ty of the

person who you've traced the print, to indicated the prints that

you have made?

A. Yes p sir.

O. Now, on this particular list, on Exhibit 615-Ap

have you left off the two prints that were attributed to Mr.

Cooper?

A. Yes, sir p I did.

O. Could you, so that the list is complete, could you

indicate perhaps -footprint- and then -shower- -- -tile shower-

and -fingerprint- and -Coffee Mate- so the list is complete?


O. And those identifications pertain to exhibits that

you utilized in your testimony last time: is that correct?

A. That's correct. •

O. Is 615-8 a Xerox copy of the prints that were taken

out of the Lease home which were not suitable for comparison?

A. That's correct.

O. And is 615-C a Xerox copy of the latent prints

which were taken out of the Lease residence which are of

suitable quality for a comparison but have not been eliminated?

A. That's correct.·

O. Then directing your attention to 616-Ap -B p and -C p


- :.'- ~.~ ..

" U , , CI o J :J -, ,

." U

1

2

3

.. 5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

l4

( IS

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27 '-- -.

28

\

'.

4751

are those three exhibits all Xerox copies of the latent prints

~hich were taken out of the Ryen station wagon?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is 6l6-A the prints that you've identified?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, with that have you actually written on the

prints the identification of the person that you've traced them

to?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. With 616-B, are those the prints out of the Ryen

vehicle that are not suitable for comparison?


Q. And is 616-C the prints from the Ryen car which are

suitable for comparison but you've not eliminated?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, directing your attention to only three of

those exhibits, 6l4-C, the prints from the Ryen home which have

not been eliminated, 61S-C the prints from the Lease home which

have not been eliminated, and 616-C, the prints from the Ryen

vehicle which have not been eli~inated.

Have you cross-compared those prints?

A. Yes, sir, I have.

Q. DO any of them match?

A. NO, sir, they do not.

Q. SO, in terms, is it fair to say that in terms of

fingerprint evidence you have no fingerprint evidence of any

mystery person being in the Ryen home and the Lease home?

A. That's correct.


!~-.

:,-, U , , ,-, 0 :I =-, ,

I , 1 , ~'-

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15 ,

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

(

4752

Q. Or the Ryen horne and the Ryen car?

A. Tha t' s correct.

Q. Or the Lease horne and the Ryen car?

A. That's correct.

Q. NOW, did you take some steps in this case to

determine Mr. Cooper's shoe size?

A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. Sometime in October of 1984, around the 18th, did

you go to a shoe store?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And directing your attention to Exhibit 148, did

you take this particular exhibit with you?

A. Yes, I di~.

Q. Was that to assist you in determining what Mr.

Cooper's shoe size was?


Q. And did you attempt to determine that?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Using what procedure?

A. When I arrived at the shoe store I used the

instrument that they had available for people corning in to try

on shoes. I placed that instrument over the known footprint and

tried to determine the size.

Q. And were y"ou able to approximate Mr. Cooper's shoe

size?

A. Yes, sir, I was.

Q. And what shoe size is it?

A. It is approximately a ten or a ten-and-a-half.


I

n u , , ,-, o -, :J ,

. , .:1 .L

1

2

3

.. 5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 /

\. 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27 ' ... _-

28

I

"-

.' :~ .......

4753

Q. Thank you.

I have no further questions.

THE COURT: Cross-examine.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. When you were at the autopsy, was there a homicide

detective present named Dick Peterson?

A. Yes, sir, there was.

Q. And during the autopsy -- you were present for all

four autopsies of all four victims over two days~ is that right?

A. That's correct.

Q. At some point in time was Mr. Peterson providing

various weapons for Dr. Root to look at?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. And that was for purposes of attempting to either

include or eliminate weapons as possible weapons used in the

crime?

A. I believe so, yes.

Q. Showing you Exhibit 532, a photograph of some Buck

type knives, did you take that photograph?

A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. And is that

county morgue during the

was that photograph taken at the

during the Ryen autopsies?


Q. And was that of some of the weapons that Mr.

Peterson was bringing in to show to Dr. Root?

A. Yes, sir.


I-' U , , ,-, o -, J -,

. , -, :I

1

(

1

2

3

4

5

6

4755

SAN DIEGO. CALIFORNIA. TUESDAY, DECEMEER 11. 1984. 1:33 P.M.

THE COURT: Mr. Kottmeier.

MR. KOTTMEIER: William Baird, your Honor.

THE COURT: Raise your right hand and be sworn, please.

7 WILLIAM \oJ. BAIRD,

8 called as a witness on behalf of the People, having been duly

9

10


THE CLERK: Hould you, please, state your full name for

11 the record and spell your last name.

12

13

THE WITNESS: Yes. William W. Baird, B-a-i-r-d.

THE COURT: Before we start, I might explain to the

14 jurors why we have a new clerk. Our regular clerk, Ms. Bennett,

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

is not feeling well. She went home somewhat ill. We have

Patricia Jennings here helping us out.

Go ahead, sir.

MR. KOTTMEIER: Thank you, your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. KOTTMEIERr

Q. Mr. Baird, who do you work for?

A. I work for the San Bernadino Sheriff's Department.

Q. What is your position with the San Bernadino County

Sheriff's Office?

A. I'm the Crime Laboratory Manager.

Q. As a manager, what function do you perform in the

28 crime laboratory?


~.'~ '. ' ..

n u , , ,~,

13 -, :J -,

. , .1: .J

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27 -- 28

( '"

4756

A. I'm responsible for the over~ll supervision and

administration of the crime laboratory.

Q. And what kind of formal education have you had to

become the manager of the crime laboratory?

A. I have a Bachelor of Science Degree with a major in

Chemistry from the University of California, and I also have a

Master's Degree in Criminalstics from Cal State Los Angeles.

Q. When you say a Master's Degree in Criminalstics, we

are not talking now just about a combination of science courses,

are we?

A. No. It is a particular curriculum leading to that

degree.

Q. So, before becoming the manager of the San

Bernadino County Sheriff's Crime Laboratory, for a period of

time did you serve as a criminalist?

A. Yes, sir, 1 did.

Q. And eventually worked your way up to being the

manager?

A. Yes.

Q. And as a criminalist, did you receive training in

the area particularly of shoe and tire impression

identification?

A. Yes.

Q. How long have you been a criminalist?

A. A little over 14 years.

Q. Are you a member of any particular organizations?

A. Yes, sir, I am.

Q. And can you give us a couple of examples?


" U , , ,-, CI ~,

:I -, , , .c. ,0

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

-4757

A. Yes. I'm a member of the California Association of

Criminalists and also I'm a member of the California Association

of Crime Laboratory Directors.

Q. And based upon your expertise, have you done any

teaching?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Where have you taught?

A. I've taught at the San Bernadino Sheriff's Basic

Academy, and I've also taught for several quarters at Cal State

University Los Angeles. I've also taught limited short courses

at junior colleges.

Q. And when you have taught, what subject area have

you taught?

A. ~'O principally. Physical evidence was the actual

titles of one course, and Investigative Photography was the

other.

Q. And based upon your training and experience within

the area of shoe and tire impression identification, have you

ever been called upon to testify in the Municipal or Superior

Courts?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. In regard to that particular area of criminalstics,

shoe and tire impression identification, is this a relatively

straightforward "type of identification?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. When I say straightforward, basically it's the kind

of thing that you are just looking for items that you can

compare one with the other visually?


n u , , o o J :J ,

. , , ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27 ~

28

4758

A. Yes. It's a -- it's often referred to as a

side-by-side comparison where a known is compared to a

questioned, a questioned impression to a known impression or a

known impression.

Q. Well, when you start to make a comparison,

particularly of a shoe impression, what kind of things do you

look for?

A. That task is really kind of divided into two

smaller tasks. The first is to look for something called class

characteristics.

Class characteristics are those features that one

would find in a tread pattern, either on a tire or a shoe, that

would cause it to be placed in a class with others but also

excluding others, an example of which would be the actual tread

design itself would be a class characteristic. By this we know

that, yes, there are other shoes that would have this particular

pattern. There would also be a large number of shoes that could

be excluded because the pattern was entirely different from

that. These are the class characteristics.

After that, if possible, we look for

individualizing characteristics. And these are those features

that would actually cause a particular shoe to be unique among

other shoes that would be similar to it. Things such as cuts,

nicks, the wear pattern, these types of things are

individualizing characteristics. And if they are present in

sufficient number, then it may ~e possible to identify a

particular shoe or a particular tire as having caused an

impression.

cm~PUTERI ZED TRAr\SCRIPT

rl U , , I-' o -, ~ , ,

·0 .0

(

2

( \

4759

1 o. Mr. Baird, on Sunday, June the 5th, 1983, did you

2 go out to 2943 English Road in the Chino Hills?

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

A.

o. A.

o. A.

o.

Yes, I did.

And that's in San Bernadino County?

It is.

And did you go to the Ryen murder scene?

I did:

And while you were at the Ryen murder scene you

acted as a supervisor for David stockwell?

A. Yes, I did.

o. And Patricia Schechter?

A. Yes.

o. In fact, were they called to the scene after you

got there?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you give them some general instructions

once you had arrived at the scene about things that you had

observed?

A. Yes.

Q. Among the items that you directed the attention of

Mr. Stockwell and Ms. Schechter to, was there a drop of

bloodstain in the hallway of that particular home?

A. Yes.

o. You were there additionally with Mr. Stockwell and

Ms. Schechter for a period of time: is that correct?

A. Yes.

o. About how long?

A. About two hours as I recall initially.


n u , , ,-, 13 -, :I , , ·0 .:1

(

4760

1 Q. So, you offered them suggestions and ideas during

2 that particular time that they were gathering evidence?

3

4

A.

Q.

Yes.

And you had the opportunity to look at the crime

5 scene as it existed during the time the evidence was being

6 collected?

7

8

9

A. Yes.

Q. Now, following that opportunity at the Ryen murder

scene, did you go to the house that was just down the hill at

10 2991 English Road, also known as the Lease house?

11

12

A.

Q.

Yes.

And you were able to visit that house sometime

13 around Tuesday, June the 7th?

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall if you went in the early afternoon,

late evening, or what of the 7th?

A. It was in the afternoon and the evening as well, as

a matter of fact.

Q. And while you were at the Lease house, did you also

observe at some point in time a tennis shoe, or what appeared to

be a tennis shoe impression, in the dust in the room that had

the pool table in it?

A. Yes.

Q. And about when was it that that particular

impression was called to your attention?

A. It was that afternoon. At that time somebody had

27 already actually discovered that print. It was marked off so

28 that it would not be stepped on. Arrangements were made to


r, u , , o o -, :I o [] .. ,

.U

( ,

4761

1 return that evening to photograph that impression.

2 Q. You told us that one of your particular areas of

3 expertise involves the photographing of items of evidence; is

4 that correct?

5

6

A.

Q.

Yes.

I'd like to show you Exhibit 90, do you recognize

7 what is pictured in Exhibit 90?

8

9

10

A.

Q.

A.

I do.

And what is that?

That is the impression that we are speaking of.

11 is the impression in dust of a tennis shoe or athletic shoe.

It

12 Q. Now, when you saw this particular impression, were

13 you struck by anything?

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

A. Yes.


A. It's a relatively complete impression. That is

unusual in that most of the time we don't encounter such

complete impressions. Other than that it was not particularly

remarkable at least at that time to me.

Q. At that particular point in time it was just an

unknown footwear impression found at 2991 English Road?

A. That's correct.

Q. However, at some later point in time in the

laboratory, did you begin an effort to try and identify the kind

of shoe that would have made the footprint in the dust of the

Lease house?

A. Yes.

Q. And basically in your efforts to try and identify


,"' ..... ,: .. ,.' . ,-, U

I , ,-, o -:, :I ,-:, a

".':. ..

, ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27 '-r

28

(

4762

that particular footprint, at that same point in time were you

aware of a footprint on the sheet from the Ryen murder scene

that was made in blood?

A. Yes.

Q. I'd like to show you Exhibit 487, which we've

previously identified as a sheet. Now that sheet had been

pinned to the board just a few minutes before we started; is

that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you taken two of the pins and loosened them up

and then folded the sheet somewhat on that particular board?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And reapplied the pins?

A. Yes.

Q. The particular fold that we have with the shoeprint

that appears in blood on that sheet, is that the fold or type of

shoeprint that you tried to work with?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. However, because of the nature of the pins it tends

to slide just a little bit one way or the other?

A. It does, yes.

Q. Additionally, on the back side of the sheet did you

notice that there were some, what appeared to be footwear type

impressions, on the back corner of that particular sheet?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you work with that particular corner?

A. Not actually. I noticed it and observed it but

I -- I've not worked with this area in particular. I focused my


n u , , 1-' ':1 :I J o o .J .l.

1

(

(

4763

1 efforts on the former area that we discussed.

2 Q. At least as far as the corner itself is concerned.

3 did you notice anything in that particular corner that appeared

4 to be distinctive or unusual as far as individualizing

5 characteristics that would effect your opinion in working on the

6 other portion of the sheet?

7 A. No. It has some of the same features that the

8 other portion has only less of them. It appears to be the same

9 type of tread pattern, although less less of it is actually

10 visible on the corner than in the other area.

11 Q. When you first began your efforts at identifying

12 the shoe, did you have both the sheet, 487, and the shoe

13 impression that is pictured in Exhibit 90 to work with?

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

A. Yes.

Q. In addition to those two items, did you also have a

shoe impression found on the spa cover right outside the Ryen

bedroom?

A. Yes.

Q. In this particular photograph, Exhibit 178, can you

see that particular impression pictured?

A. Yes.

Q. This particular photograph is avery difficult

thing to try and at least visually identify within the picture

itself.

A. Yes, it is very faint.

Q. Did you work off of a photograph in regard to the

27 spa cover or the cover itself?

28 A. Initially from a photograph of the spa cover.

COr.PUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

n u

I , o o j ,-, o j

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27 "-

28

4764

Q. Your first efforts, knowing that you had -- Well,

strike that.

Did you make Some initial evaluation as to the

general class characteristics between these three prints?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was your initial impression as far as the

general class characteristics?

A. My initial impression was that they all possessed a

similar tread pattern, which would indicate a similar type shoe

was used in each case.

Q. At some point in time then. in particular around

August, did you begin to try and make comparison of these

impressions with possible shoes that could be found in stores or

elsewhere?

A. Yes.

Q. What efforts did you make?

A. In August a number of shoes were submitted to the

laboratory for comparison purposes. These were shoes that were

identified as being taken from the Chino Institute for Men, and

they were various brands of athletic shoes as well as street

shoes. They were identified to me as shoes that had been issued

at various times to inmates of that institution.

Q. What laboratory number did you assign to those

shoes?

A. WW.

Q. And within that group of shoes, was there a pair of

Pro Keds tennis shoes?

A. Yes.


," ;".'"

I-' U

I , I-' D ~I :I I-' o

·LI . ,

( ,

(

1

2

3

o. A.

o.

4765

And what size?

14.

Looking at the shoes that you received from the

4 prison, did you begin to get an initial idea as to the class

5 characteristics that might have caused the footprint in dust at

6 the Lease house and the footprint on the sheet in blood at the

7 Ryen house as well as the footprint on the spa?

8

9

10

11

A.

o. A.

o.

Yes.

And what did it appear similar to?

The Pro Keds tennis shoe.

Did you receive additional samples of the Pro Keds

12 tennis shoes?

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

A. Yes, I did.

o. And when did you get those?

A. The next submission was on August 15. 1983.

o. And what identifying number did you give those?

A. GGG.

o. And what sizes did you have?

A. There was only one size submitted at that time and

it was a size 12.

O. As you did this particular work in August.

Did you also go around to try and find a similar

type shoe pattern on the soles of shoes that are sold at stores?

A. Yes, I did.

O. And some of the stores that you went to were?

A. K Mart, a store called the Foot Locker, another one

27 I believe called the Atheletes foot, department stores, as I had

28 occasion to visit those_stores for shopping, just about any


,-, U

I I

I-' o :J J I-' o 5

1

2

3

4

S

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( IS

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

2S

26

27 ""-:- .• ' ...

28

4766

other -- any other place that I saw that shoes ~ere being sold,

and if I had a minute I usually took the time to examine the

outsoles or the bottoms of various tennis shoes that were on

sale.

o. Did you ever find a pair of tennis shoes that

looked similar to the impression in dust or blood or the spa

cover?

A. No. There is one that's vaguely similar. but none

exactly like

o. And the one that's vaguely similar is Converse All

Star?

A. That's correct.

o. When you say, "vaguely", the impression is easily

separated from the impression of the dust or the blood?

A. It is. However, they do have certain features in

common, but they are still easily separated from one another.

O. Now, at some point in time did you get a series of

shoes that you labeled MMM?

A. Yes.

o. And about when did you get those?

A. November 4, 1983.

o. Just before you tes~ified at the preliminary

hearing?

A. That's correct.

o. And what sizes did you receive there?

A. Size ten-and-a-half and I need to refer to my

records for a moment.

I'm not sure how many were submitted in that item.


" U , , a o J :J

" o ··C []

(

(

. ' .

2

4767

1 I think it was just one. Yes, it was one pair of size

2 ten-and-a-half Pro Keds.

3 o. Based upon the limited information that you had

4 achieved through your efforts as of November of 1983, did you

5 offer an opinion at the preliminary hearing as to what kind of a

6

7

8

9

10

shoe made the irr.pression in the dust and in the blood and on the

spa cover?

A. Yes, I did.

o. And what was your opinion at that time?

A. It was my opinion at that time that the shoe

11 responsible for those impressions was a Pro Keds athletic shoe.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

Q. Did you give a size?

A. Yes. It -- based on the limited examinations that

I had conducted up to that time that it was most similar to the

size ten-and-a-half.

Q. In regard to that particular thought that you had,

that it was most similar to the size ten-and-a-half that you a

gave your opinion on, did you make additional efforts to firm up

your opinion and get additional information?

A. Yes •

Q. And what did that include?

A. Actually included several things. After the

preliminary hearing I made attempts to contact the Keds

Corporation. I did so. I asked that they send me some shoes

sizes 10, ten-and-a-half, and 11, which they did, and I received

those in February of 1984.

Q. In addition, did you go back to the Keds

28 Corporation?

cm:PUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

'-~~,

I i , ;

-..1 . " U , , 1-' o J J CI o ,

I { j

, .!

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27 ---.,. ...

28

(

4768

A. Yes. I did that in May of '84.

Q. And at that same point in time when you went back

to the Ked Corporation did you talk to people there about the

patterns that you'd seen in the dust and in the blood?

A. Yes.

Q. Who did you talk to?

A. First person I spoke with was an individual by the

name of of Jonathan Wierman. At that same time I also spoke

with an individual by the name of Herb Baumberg.

Q. During your conversations, did you express to them

the fact that you had noticed some little variance or difference

among the tennis shoes that you were looking at?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you find an explanation for that variance?

A. I did.


MR. NEGUS: Object to -- I believe that would call for

hearsay. your Honor. We've had Mr. Newberry in to testify about

that.

THE COURT: I think so.

MR. KOTTMEIER: It's only a portion of the foundation as

far as the opinion that he is about to give.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection.

MR. KOTTMEIER: Well--

Q. Well, after you talked to them did you return to

the laboratory?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And based upon your conversations, and I'm


, .. :.,.-

'" ,J , , .~,

iJ :I :J o (J

·0 .0

( 1

2

3

" 5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

(

4769

referring you to Exhibit 618, did you begin to look for certain

individualizing characteristics that explained the difference

among the various shoes?

A. Yes.

Q. Or you could call them class characteristics I

guess.

A. Actually they are, but they were those class

characteristics that could be used to differentiate two types of

Pro Keds shoes of this particular model that I learned was

manufactured by the Keds Corporation.

Q. Now, for our purposes here we will refer to one as

you have on Exhibit 618 on the left side as you face the exhibit

as u.s .• and the other one as you face the exhibit on the right

side as Korean?

A. That's correct.

Q. Did you examine those shoes in an effort to find

out what difference there might be between the two types of

shoes?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And what did you find that was different about

them?

A. The tread pattern although grossly similar actually

has some differences that can be measured. If we draw attention

especially to. the area of the heel, and perhaps if I were to -

if I could approach the

Q. There is a pointer right next to the flag?

A. In particular one of the differences that is easily

observed is the poSitioning of the apex of this square or


,,' ,.." U

I , '~I 0 :I J ,-, 0 ·0 .J

'<""",..

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27 ., --

28

4770

diamond as it's oriented in this picture.

In the U.S. manufactured pro Keds shoe, the tip of

the diamond rests to the right of this vertical line, whereas in

the Korean made shoe, the tip of this diamond is right on that

same line.

Furthermore. we can see that in the Korean shoe

there is an extra bar, that I'm pointing to with the pointer at

this time, both below and above the two diamonds. This bar is

absent in the U.S. made shoes.

The U.S. made shoes has an additional diagonally

positioned short bar at the position I'm pointing to now that

does not appear in the Korean shoe.

In the U.S. made shoe the distance, from this

vertical line that starts the heel design to the next full

vertical line -- I'm sorry, the second vertical line is greater

than the same corresponding lines in the Korean shoe. We find

this distance is larger than is this distance.

So those are some of the differences that exist

between a U.S. manufactured and a Korean manufactured Pro Keds

shoe of the same type, both size 10 in this case.

Q. NOW, when you say a U.S. manufactured Pro Keds

type, you are referring to the Pro Keds Dude brand or type

tennis shoes?

A. Yes.

Q. And both of the photographs that you have in the

exhibit for the U.S. size 10 and the Korean size 10, those are

sold under the label Pro Keds Dude tennis shoes?

A. Yes.


., U

I , I-' o ~I :J I-' .:1

.. ,-, U

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

C 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26 3

27

28

4771

Q. We've had marked as Exhibit 619, an inked

impression. Have you hold it here.

A. Yes.

Q. 619 is an inked impression of what kind of a shoe?

A. This is a Korean manufactured Pro Keds Dude tennis

shoe.

Q. And on 618 itself. you have a test impression of

you of a U.S. made Pro Keds Dude tennis shoes?

A. That's correct.

Q. Now in your examination of the shoes themselves,

did you not only look at the bottoms but also test by making

these kinds of inked impressions for forming your opinion?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And you have referred to us the differences between

the two manufacturers, U.S. and Korean, does that difference

also show up in the impressions that are left by the shoes?

A. They do, yes.

Q. In fact, as you look at it the distance from the

first line to the second vertical line is even more pronounced

in the impression than when you look at the shoe itself?

A. It is, that's true. Not all of the features,

however, that I described on the actual shoes can be seen on the

impressions. For example, the diagonally positioned short bars

do not show up. They are recessed. And especially with the new

shoes that were used to make these impressions they did not

appear.

However, the significant feature, that is, the

spacing of these lines is easily measured and observed both in


: •. ~ .;,t';'.

n u , , I-' CI :I ~

0 :J

I , '>.

-"

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26 1

,--. . 27

28

(

4772

the test impression with the Korean made shoe that I hold in my

hand as well as the impression made with the u.s. manufactured

shoe.

Q. So, basically we can tell from the shoe print

itself if we have these characteristics available to us whether

a shoe was made in the united States or Korea?

A. Yes. Additionally, there are some other features

in the instep region that could also be used or measured to

determine whether or not it is a Korean or a U.S. made shoe.

Q. Based upon your efforts, did you get the molds that

were used to make the sole of the u.S. Pro Keds Dude type tennis

shoe size 10?

A. Yes.

Q. I'd like to show you Exhibit 621, for the record a

black and white photograph; could you explain to us what that is

a picture of?

A. The photograph that I hold is a -- depicts or shows

a portion of the mold that was used to make the Pro Keds Dude

model shoes when they were manufactured in the United States.

The actual mold itself has more pieces so that when

this is actually in operation it's enclosed, but this actually

shows the portion that causes that particular tread design to be

formed.

There is, as you can see, a left and a right shoe

are a part of the same heavy piece of metal. This weighs in the

vicinity -- just the bottom half, about 150 pounds or so.

Q. And you have that in your laboratory right now.

A. Yes. As well as size ten-and~a-half and 11 as


,-, U

I , I-' o -, :I o -, -:, ,--

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

'-- 27

28

4773

well.

Q. That particular metal that shines so much in there

that forms the actual surface on which the shoe sole would be t made, is that the color it really is?

A. Actually, it is, even though this is a black and

white print, except for some corrosion that exists down in these

areas, that is a black and brown shade, and so it has the

appearance of stainless.

1 don't know what the exact composition is. It

doesn't even -- it appears pretty much as seen in this

photograph.

Q. In this photograph, do you see those same class

characteristics in the U.S. mold that you told us not only show,

but also the inked impression that is pictured?

A. That's correct. They are -- of course in the mold

they are recessed features that give rise to raised features on

the actual shoe itself.

Nevertheless, the relative positions of those

features are in the same -- same positions.

Q. Now, the Korean mold are still in use as far as you

know in Korea?

A. Yes.

Q. Referring your attention to Exhibit 617.

For the record, this is a display board which has

some photographs and an inked impression towards the bottom.

Does that particular photograph or display board

have a photograph that is similar to, or a photograph previously

identified as Exhibit 90, that is, the dust impression from the


.... ,-, U , , ,-, o J ::J .-, J . :1 .J

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

--.. 27

28

4774

Lease house of 2991 English Road?

A. Yes, it does. In fact, it was made with the same

negative as Exhibit 90, I believe.

Q. The L-134 in the corner?

A. Yes.

Q. And also to the right side an impression from the

Ryen bed sheet similar to what you've shown us on 487.

A. Yes. This is a photograph of that bed sheet.

Q. Did you make an effort to compare the bed sheet

with the dust impression on the floor from the Ryen -- or excuse

me -- from the Lease house?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And what did you find, if anything, in your

comparison?

A. First of all, the portion of the shoe that caused

the bloodstain impression on the sheet is approximately this

portion of the shoe, as I'm pointing to here.

Furthermore, there is some feature of this shoe

that shows up on the bed sheet that do not appear on the

photograph of the shoe impression on the floor.

These diagonally, evenly spaced lines that I'm

pointing to now, present in the instep of the portion of the

shoe, they are recessed actually on the tennis shoes themselves,

and they consequently do not impress on a flat surface.

However, they are visible on the bloody impression

on the sheet.

Q. Excuse me, I didn't mean to interrupt. Go ahead.

A. Based on my comparisons I find that the actual


.... .... ~."'!~ ~ .. ~~ ... 7.

...... ,I' . ,-, U , , ,-, o -, 3 ,-, :; ·u . ,

(

... - ~.,J.

4775

1 impressions are consistent with one another, and that they could

2 have been caused by the same shoe. The shoe that caused this

3 impression could have caused this impression as well.

4 Q. Now, towards the bottom of that particular exhibit

5 we have a test impression, and I think that the letters are

6 covered up with -- that's a test impression of a U.S. Pro Ked

7 Dude model tennis shoe. Is that correct?

8

9

A.

Q.

Yes. That is correct, yes.

Were you virtually able to find all the class

10 characteristics of that particular shoe in the dust impression

11 that was found at the Lease house?

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

A. Yes.

Q. In regard to the blood impression.

Did you work further, as far as the blood

impression itself, in regard to -- and I am pointing now to a

small section of the diamond pattern where some of the diamond

pattern appears to be darker than others.

A. Yes.

Q. In fact, maybe it would be easier to work off the

larger picture.

Directing your attention to Exhibit 620, for the

record, a display diagram which has a test impression on the

left side and an enlarged photograph of the Ryen bed sheet on

the right side.

A. Yes.

Q. Did you prepare that diagram?

A • It was prepared at my direction, yes.

Q. And what does that particular diagram show us, Mr.


" U I ,

CI o :I :J o :J

·C .:1

I

I,

(

2

. '-

, ..

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

·23

24

25

26

27

28

4776

Baird?

A. First of all, we have a test impression of a left

u.s. made, size 10, Pro Ked Dude tennis shoe. We have taken

this impression and darkened, using a black marking pen, the

area that is represented by the impression in blood on the

sheet. This is to help visualize what portion of the outsole or

tread caused the impression on the sheet.

So, this is a known impression that has actually

been drawn upon to illustrate what portion of the sole caused

the impression on the sheet in blood.

Q. One of the characteristics in the impression on the

sheet in blood is that area that I was referring to just a

moment ago, which is that basically, at least in these two

lines, you almost see a lighter portion in the middle of the

line as opposed to just the edge on either side.

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. Did you do any experiments in the laboratory to try

and figure out why you would get those lighter impression in the

center of the particular bed sheet in blood in the Ryens

bedroom?

A. Yes.

Q. Showing you Exhibit 622, for the record, an

enlargement of a shoe impression.

Is that part of the experimental effort that you

made in regard to that particular characteristic on the bed

sheet?

A. It is.

Q. What does that particular impression tell you?


•

L

..

." U I ,

'~I o ~I :I ,-, :I

·C o

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

C 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

,-. 27

28

'.

4777

A. In an attempt to duplicate the type of impression

that we saw on the sheet, we found it necessary to soak the sole

of the shoe heavily with blood, take an initial step and then

step causing this impression onto a sheet on the floor that was

cushioned by some material that would give, some other cloth, so

that it was not a hard flat surface.

Doing that we have created a situation similar to

that which we find in the questioned impression on the sheet.

That is, this dark area on the margins of the portion of the

impression that is represented -- strike that. A portion of the

tread design caused by the ribs of the bottom of the shoe show

up on the photograph as dark on the sides, light in the middle.

To duplicate that we heavily soak the sole of the

shoe in blood, stepped first to absorb some of the blood off of

it, and then made the impression that I am holding in my hand by

stepping onto a surface that has some give to it.

In doing that we created a situation that is

similar to the photograph of the bed sheet. That is, we have

the ribs of the tread design that are dark on the outside and

light on the inside.

Q. So, as a result of that particular experiment, are

you able to tell us anything about the condition of the size of

the shoe at the time the impression was made in blood on the bed

sheet?

A. Yes.

Q. What can you tell us?

A. It would be my opinion that the shoe is heavily

bloodstained on the bottom.

COl-!PUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

,-, U

I I ,-,

o -, :I ,-, :;

. -, I

~ 1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

r \.

4778

o. In other words, saturated in blood?

A. Yes. It would actually have some flowing

properties to it.

O. While we have this particular exhibit up here, did

you perform any measurements in an effort to be able to identify

for us whether the shoe that made the bloodstain on the Ryen bed

sheet was an American or a Korean made tennis shoe?

A. Yes.

O. What did you do?

A. The line between a particular feature of the shoe,

and another feature of the shoe, is illustrated on this diagram

with a red line. That corresponding area has also been drawn

with a red line on the photograph of the impression on the bed

sheet.

On a u.s. made size 10 Pro Ked Dude shoe, this

distance is 5.8 centimeters. On a Korean manufactured shoe of

the same size, that distance is 5.2 centimeters, a significant

difference. On the bed sheet it is 5.8 centimeters.

So, clearly. this is an impression caused by a U.S.

manufactured Dude tennis shoe as opposed to a Korean

manufactured shoe.

O. Were you able to make a similar measurement on the

dust impression that you found at the Lease house?

A. No, actually I could not. This feature here, this

curved line with these diagonal lines on the actual shoe are

recessed so that when the impression is made on a hard flat

surface, there is no contact between that portion of the shoe

and a receiving surface, namely, a flat surface.


n u , , n o J J o J ·0 o

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 (

15 ,

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

'\.~ 27 ,

28

4779

However, stepping onto something with some give to

it, such as a pile, or rather, that is, a sheet that is fOlded

over, that portion of the shoe then can be transferred to the

receiving surface, in this case, the sheet.

Q. As a result of your work with the dust impression,

were you able to form an impression, excuse me, an opinion, as

to whether the impression was u.s. or a Korean made U.S. Ked,

Pro Ked Dude brand tennis shoes?

A. Yes. Using different characteristics this time,

namely, those in the heal that I described earlier. I can tell

that this is an i~pression caused by a U.S. manufactured Pro

Ked: Namely. the points of the diamond end up behind the line,

and this distance from this vertical line to the line behind the

diamond, is the same distance as the u.s. manufactured shoe and

differ from the Korean manufactured shoe.

Q. Could you tell the size --

A. Yes.

Q. -- of that U.S. made Pro Ked tennis shoes that left

the impression at the Lease house?

A. Yes.

Q. What size was it?

A. It is most probably a size 10. it could be a size

nine-and-a-half. I would allow some margin for error, since the

differences are relatively small on the internal features

between nine-and-a-half and a 10. But it is the same dimensions

as exhibited by a size 10.

Q. Could it be a size ten-and-a-half in the dust?

A. I don't think so. It is -- a size ten-and-a-half

COMPUTERIZED TRru~SCRIPT

/,-, U

I .f ,-, o ~I :I ,-, .:1 ·0 .J ' ..

3

(

, (

4180

1 is different enough that I believe it can be excluded.

2 Q. And obviously that particular dust impression was

3 left by the right or the left shoe?

" A. The left. AS was the impression in blood on the

5 sheet, that's a left shoe.

6 Q. Do you know the size of the shoe that left the

7 impression in the blood in the Ryen bedroom?

8

9

A. That's a little more difficult because there is

less information to work with.

10 However, the same dimension that we referred to

11 earlier that I had drawn with a red line, when considering U.S.

12 made shoes, that distance correlates to a size 10.

13 However, the differences between a riine-and-a-half

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

and 10 and ten-and-a-half is only one millimeter for every half

size. So, if we were considering just this shoe, without any

knowledge of that shoe or impressions, I would have to say

between a nine-and-a-half and ten-and-a-half. Just allowing for

a millimeter that could have been caused by the sheet being

somewhat distorted or folded up a little bit when the impression

was made, it does measure out to be the same as a size 10,

however.

Q. When we talk in terms of size 10 tennis shoes, do

you have any idea how long the back end of the impression to the

front end of the impression in inches are?

A. It is about twelve inches. I'd have to refer to my

26 notes.

27 I am less concerned with front to back distances

28 than just almost any other dimension. It is one that I have


.-.... ..~.

''-, U

I , ,-, CI LI , I-' U . I-' U

1

2

3

4

5 1

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

. ~ 27

28

i ,

4781

found least reliable.

Q. Here 11m just interested in a general evaluation as

far as the surface area of the length from the back of the heal I to the very front of the toe, of the impression similar to the

impressions that you have in the diagram.

A. I donlt have any notes exactly. I believe it could

be in the vicinity -- actually the measurement, we have a scale

actually in the photograph, I believe it to be the vicinity of

about a foot.

Q. In regard to the particular shoes that, or shoe

that made the impression in dust, and the impression on the Ryen

bed sheet, are your findings consistent then that in each case

it is a left U.S. made size 10 Pro Ked Dude tennis shoe?

A. Yes.

Q. I kind of wandered away in our conversation from

the spa cover here in Exhibit 178. And I just show this and

bring it to your attention.

Did you actually have a portion of the spa cover

cut out?

A. I did.

Q. And why did you have that done?

A. Subsequent to the time that that photograph was

taken, an attempt was made to try and raise or make visible or

more visible that particular shoeprint impression by dusting

with fingerprint powder. That was not done by myself. In so

doing, whatever impression was there was totally obscured,

simply a black blob at that point •

I had the portion bearing that hidden, now hidden


.... ~ .. "'~:,':;'-'

,-, U

I , ,-, o LI , ,-, U

I ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

--- 27

28

\

4782

impression, cut out, and I took it with me when I visited the

Keds Corporation and after leaving the Keds Corporation I

visited the FBI laboratory in Washington, D.C.

O. For what purpose?

A. There I had arranged, by prior arrangement with a

special agent Bodziak, who does this type of work for the FBI

laboratory, I consulted with him to see if they had any special

techniques for resurrecting that latent impression. They did

not have any special techniques that were able to be used in

this case.

O. So, as far as the spa cover is concerned, all you

have had to work with is that photographic effort of the

preservation of the print itself.

A. Yes.

O. Yet, the same procedure that wound up obliterating

the spa cover print was used successfully in preserving the

print from the Lease house; is that correct?

A. Exactly. In fact, I am sure that's why that

particular technique was employed in this case. The problem is

we had a different type of impression, a different type of

receiving surface, and it did not work in this case, where it

had worked excellently on the linoleum floor of the Lease

residence.

O. In fact, everybody was standing around that

particular impression, there were a variety of suggestions of

ways to lift that up, including picking up the floor tile

itself.

A. Yes.


,-, o LI , I-' u

--:I l

( 1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

\.

4783

Q. The one that ultimately worked was the one that

wound up destroying the print on the spa cover.

A. Yes. When that suggestion was made, heretofore,

that has been recognized in our field as not the way to do it.

You didn't attempt to lift the shoe prints off linoleum floors

with a fingerprint powder.

We attempted to lift it off with a very large

Scotch tape, about a foot and foot wide, and lift it up pretty

quick. When I did I pulled the stain off and there was no

impression on it. It was still on the floor. This technique

wasn't working.

At that time, Detective Roper asked if we could try

the fingerprint powder, and I said fine, and it came up

excellently and we lifted that impression at that time.

Q. Mr. Baird, have you looked at photographs of shoes

from people who were present at the Ryen homicide scene as well

as at the Lease house in your laboratory?

A. Yes.

Q. And have you found any photograph of shoe size that

even came close to the u.s. or u.s. manufactured Pro Ked Dude

model tennis shoes?

A. None at all.

Q. In all of your adventures when you were shopping,

and so on, even up to this day, have you found, within stores,

at any time available a shoe sole pattern that is anywhere

similar to this particular pattern that we have in dust and in

blood in the Ryen house?

A. No, I haven't.


,-, U

I I ,-,

o u , ,-, U .:1 .:1

( 1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24 2

25

26

27

28

(

4784

MR. KOTTMEIER: with the exception of possibly having him

measure the size of the heal to toe impression, your Honor, I

have no fUrther questions.

MR. NEGUS: Before I start cross, I would like to do just

one little thing in chambers, so maybe we could take a break

now.

THE COURT: All right, we will take an early recess.

Remember the admonition, please.


THE COURT: All three counsel, and the defendant are in

chambers.

MR. NEGUS: I intend to recall Mr. Baird in my case in

chief. Mr. Kottmeier has, as it were, opened up the Ryen house

with some of his questions to Mr. Baird. I don't intend to ask

him those questions today, but I don't want to be thought to

have waived bringing it up in my case in chief later, if I don't

cross-examine him on it.

On my first opportunity I just want to let you all

know that I just plan on questions about the shoes and not about

the Ryen crime scene investigation today.

MR. KOTTMEIER: I have opened up the crime scene on

purpose in an effort to make sure that we covered what there was

left of the afternoon, at least as far as possible, so

MR. KOCHIS: He's the last witness available. That's why

we --

MR. NEGUS: I understand.

THE COURT: If you have no questions, we will all go


"." ,\

n u I ,

I-' o U , ,-, U ·LI ,

( 1

2

3

.. 5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24 1

25

26

27

28

(

4785

home.

MR. NEGUS: I have a few questions on the shoes. I would

just as soon not do that. I -- as the prosecution, I have my

own yo-yo plans with the witnesses. I think it would be, from

my point of view, make more sense after I had some other

witnesses testify first.

So, I don't intend to go into it, but I do want to

let you know that I intend to bring him back later.

THE COURT: I simply will not excuse him permanently

then.

MR. NEGUS: Fine. I just didn't want to --

THE COURT: I don't think I can compel him to deviate

from his game plan.

MR. KOTTMEIER: I'm just explaining on the record why I

opened it up on -- my thoughts.

THE COURT: I haven't attempted to keep a hold of counsel

as to your motives.

MR. KOTTMEIER: That is why I try to explain them

sometimes.

THE COURT: All right. Take a recess then we will finish

up with him.


(Recess)

THE COURT: Something further, Mr. Kottmeier?

MR. KOTTMEIER: Oh, yes. Give an attorney time and we'll

think of something.


rl U

I , ,-, o LI , I-' .U

5

( 1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

....... 27

28

4786

o. Mr. Baird, what was the item number of the dust

prints that was lifted from the Lease house at 2991 English

Road?

A. K-3. Actually we lifted twice, K-3 and K-4. I

believe are going to be the same.

o. And did you have a chance to measure the length of

the impression from heel to the end of the toe during the break?

A. Yes.

o. And the measurement is approximately

A. Eleven-and-five-eighths inches.

O. And also showing you Exhibit 623, for the record a

blue box with a pair of blue tennis shoes in it with some

identifying information that labels it as 1111 --

A. Yes.

O. -- I?

A. Yes.

O. Did you get those in the laboratory?

A. Yes.

O. When did you get them?

A. Referring to my records, September 25, 1984.

O. And these are a pair of size 10 U.S. made Pro Keds

Dude tennis shoes?

A. Correct.

MR. KOTTMEIER: I have nothing further, your Honor.

THE COURT: Now, Mr. Negus, please.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. NEGUS:


. .... ; ,,:, ,

1-' U , , ,-, o u , " .U

.1:

.0

(

(

--- ;

(

4787

1 Q. Mr. Baird, in your search for Pro Keds tennis

2 shoes, did you ever find a pair of tennis shoes that could have

3 made those impressions in your very own laboratory in the

4 evidence?

5

6

A.

Q.

Recently, yes.

That was a pair of tennis shoes, Pro Keds tennis

7 shoes that were received in the laboratory on November 8, 1964?

8 THE COURT: 19 when?

9 MR. NEGUS: '84.

10 THE WITNESS: I donlt recall the exact month, but that

11 would have been about right.

12 BY MR. NEGUS,

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

Q. Do you have your report there with you?

A. NO, I donlt. That copy I inadvertently left on my

desk this morning. Thank you.

Q. I have two pages of a Xerox -- that would be on the

second page?

A. Yes.

Q. So, it would be November 8, 1964?

A. Yes.

MR. KOTTMEIER: Excuse me. Your Honor, --

MR. NEGUS: 1984.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: Have you lost 20 years somewhere, Mr. Negus?

MR. NEGUS: I think I would like to have lost 20 years

somewhere back when I was in my prime.

Q. And those were size nine-and-a-half?

A. Yes, they were.

COMPUTERIZED TRru~SCRIPT

n u , , ,-, o u

, .!

J " , ul ,j ,1

j

(

\

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

( 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

---- . 27

28

,

4788

o. The shoe in blood, could that have been made -- the

shoeprint in blood, could that have been made by any size

between a 9 and a 12?

A. No, I don't -- I don't think a size 12 could have

made that at all. I think it could be between a size

nine-and-a-half to ten-and-a-half.

O. Did you -- you knew a John Thornton, a criminalist

that has been assisting me in this particular case?

A. Yes.

O. Did you ever tell him that it could have been made

by any size between a 9 and 12?

A. I don't recall -- I did discuss with him the nature

of my findings, what my opinions were; however I haven't

discussed it since I've done the measurements that are indicated

by the red line on these diagrams. That was done last night, as

a matter of fact.

O. Well, let's see how many -- let's -- of the ones

that you've labeled as Korean made shoes well, the shoes that

you have been looking at say made in U.S.A. and made in Korea on

the inside, right?

A. They do, yes.

O. Of the ones that say made in Korea, how many

different sizes have you looked at?

A. Let's see, I've seen a size 14, size 12, size 10,

size 10-and-a-half, and size 11.

O. Of those Korean made ones, what's the variation in

this red line distance on the Korean made shoes?

A. With respect to -- I only measured one of those and


t

,-, U , , ,-, o u , I-' U

·CI .0

( ,

"--..,'

'.

4769

1 that was the size 10. That was the one that measured 5.2

2 centimeters.

3

4

5

6

7

Q. Did you -- did you

there, did you try and make any

those molds that you have

any shoes in the molds?

A. No.

Q. Or any soles in the molds?

A. I attempted to cast them with varying casting

6 materials, not in an attempt to make any shoes or soles but to

9

10

11

12

produce a replica.

Q. And what did you find when you did that?

A. I found that I was largely unsuccesful.

Q. Did you did you -- did you learn anything about

13 the properties of shoes when they are -- when they are cooled

14

15

16

17

16

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

26

after having been put in the mold?

A. Yes.

Q. And what's that?

A. Well, the features that I've described on the mold

are larger or have greater distances between them than do a size

of corresponding shoes made from that mold. In other words, we

would measure, let's say, the distance between two points on the

sole of a shoe, and look at the mold and measure the distance,

we'd find that the distance on the mold is greater than on the

shoe. And this implies to me then that the process by which the

soles are made involves the rubber material shrinking somewhat

as it's taken out of the mold.

Q. Do you know if the if the rubber on a size 10

shoe shrinks at an uniform rate?

A. No, I don't.


'r, u , , ,-, o u , ,-, U ·0 .:1

(

2

(

" __ .1

4790

1 Q. In coming to an opinion as to what size of shoe

2 made the different impressions, wouldn't that be important to

3 know?

4 A. I think it would ultimately, though I'm basing my

5 opinions on rather limited data. But I suppose if I were to

6 learn that the sgrinkage rate varied greatly, that would have

7 some effect on my opinion. I

8 Q. Well. in this particular situation, varying by --

9 if it varied a couple millimeters it would have a great effect

10 on your opinion, would it not?

11 A. Well, I've allowed -- it depends on which opinion

12 we're talking about, on which size.

13 Based on the -- on the size of the shoe that caused

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

.25

the impression in the Lease residence on the floor, no, I don't

think it's going to be less than a nine-and-a-half shoe. I

think that the differences there become too great, even more

than a couple of millimeters, so I have allowed that a

nine-and-a-half to size 10.

Q. Well, do you have any idea of just if you went down

to Pro Keds warehouse in Connecticut, what the variation would

be amongst nine-and-a-half shoes?

A. No.

Q. Other than -- other than this measurement of

distance that you have here on the Exhibit 620, item A-8

enlarged, there is nothing else that you've used in coming to

26 your opinion about the size of shoe that could have made the

27

28

impression on the bottom sheet, is that right?

A. That's technically correct. I have done a

COfo~PUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

.~

,-, U

I , '-~I o LI ,

I , I-' U

( '-

. "~.' ..

(

4791

1 side-by-side comparison with the corresponding features on a --

2 on the other questioned impression in the Lease horne. That is,

3 just by taking a pair of dividers and see that this line is the

4 same length in both prints, and so forth. live done that and

5 indirectly 11m determining size that way. And that was the

6 basis of my initial opinion that it is consistent with size 10.

7 o. In your laboratory under your direction was there

8 such a comparison done and it turned out to be a size 13?

9

10

11

12

A.

Q.

A.

o.

NO.

By Mr. Stockwell?

11m not aware of that.

Mr. Baird, do you have any particular biases as you

13 testify?

14 A. NO.

15 MR. KOTTMEIER: Objection, your Honor. I think the

16 question is extremely vague. Any particular biases? He may

17 like Monday night football, I donlt know.

18 THE COURT: Very broad. Can you specify a little more,

19 Mr. Negus?

20

21

MR. NEGUS: Well. I will try and pin it down somewhat.

THE COURT: I think he can eventually figure it out,

22 however. I will overrule the objection for what it's worth.

23 BY MR. NEGUS:

24 Q. Mr. Baird, just so I understand what we're talking

25 about, do you favor one side or the other in this particular

26 lawsuit?

27 A • No. I -- if anything, 11m biased toward my own

28 opinions, I suppose. Once I have done an examination and formed


'n u , , 0 0 LI , , , , ,

.t ..

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

-.,... 27

28

4792

an opinion, then I'm somewhat of an advocate for that position,

but other than that, no.

Q. As far as the as the results of your research

into shoes, are you do you have any particular position about

trying to preclude any particular defenses that I might raise?

A. No, not if they're based on scientific and sound

reasoning.

Q. Did you and Billy Arthur have a phone conversation

with Mike Newberry on september 5th, 1984?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you tell Mr. Newberry that you were trying

to get certain information out of him so that you could, as you

put it, shut down certain defenses?

A. I may have. I don't mean to hedge. I don't --

that wouldn't particularly bother me and we do that routinely.

If there is a defense we will look to provide the evidence to

invalidate that defense. yes.

Q. The shoes that you have in your laboratory that

could have caused those impressions, did they corne from a person

from state prison?

A. I know he wasn't in state prison when they were

seized. I couldn't tell you whether he had been there of my own

knowledge.

Q. That particular man hadn't -- would it be -- would

you -- is it your understanding that particular man had been not

even on parole since 1976?

A. I I don't know that. I only know that he was --

I was told he was in state prison in the past, some years back,


"':'~ - , r, u , , 1-' o LI , , ,

.:1 .L

( \.

4793

1 seven years ago I believe.

2 Q. Could you tell us how old those shoes were that you

3 got into the laboratory? Did they like like they were ten year

4 old shoes?

5 A. I couldn't tell when they were manufactured

6 exactly. They were not significantly worn. They had had some

7 wear. though they were not shoes that had been worn by somebody

8 continuously for seven years I can tell you that.

9 Q. Did you get a thing from the people back in --

10 in in Massachusetts, that is, the Pro Keds people, which

11 tells you how to look at these little codes on the inside bf the

12 shoes and tell you when and where they were made?

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

A. Yes.

Q. Did you do that with those shoes?

A. I called regarding those and asked what the

significance of the code ·STS· was. I knew what the "T· stood

for, Thompson, Georgia, and in particular the ·S· code was what

I was interested in.

I believe that was told to me it was 1981, July and

August, or May, June, something like that, but that the things

were cyclical and they could have been used at a time previous

to that, in other words, it wasn't the only time that "S· was

used.

Q. But they were made in Thompson, Georgia?

A. Yes.

Q. Same place you believe that these particular shoe

impressions were made?

A. The soles, yes.


'"'Zo', .'. r, u , , ,-, (I

LI , , , ~,

:I

3

(

I

2

MR. NEGUS: Nothing further.

4794

3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. KOTTMEIER:

5 Q. Mr. Baird, as a result of your examination of the

6 dust shoe print and the impression on the Ryen sheet in blood,

7 do you have any opinion as to whether those were new or worn

8 shoes that made those two impressions?

9 A. I believe them to be -- they weren't brand new, but

10 they were not heavily worn. They were lightly worn shoes as

11 evidenced by the features that are visible primarily in the

12 impression in the Lease house, but also somewhat the parts of

13 the impression on the sheet. If I may illustrate.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

Q. Yes.

A. On this enlarged view we can see a portion of the

edge of the shoe. However, while this is well-defined and we

can see the small ribs present in the edge of the shoe, a part

that is normally worn away faster than some other parts of the

shoes. This occurs down in this area and this is not an area

that receives heavy wear in footwear.

We would expect, for example, if we were to see

these types of detail in this area more in the instep, th~n that

would have to be a shoe that was very lightly worn, virtually

24 new.

25 Nevertheless, in the impreSSion in the Lease home

26 we can see a fair amount of this detail around the edges. There

27 were some areas though up in this area (indicating) where the

28 ribs appear a little bit wider and where some of the detail is


.-;0.

1-' U , , .~,

o u , , , LI ,

( \.

4795

1 less apparent, and I believe that to be from wear and so that it

2 is kind of in between. I don't believe they are right out of

3 the box, but certainly they are not old shoes at all.

4 Q. Would that be consistent with having been worn

5 maybe a week or so?

6 A. I really can't say. I have not done any kind of

7 detailed work that would permit me to be that precise. I would

8 just have to classify them as nearly new shoes, but not brand

9

10

11

12

new.

MR. KOTTMEIER: I have nothing further, your Honor.

MR. NEGUS: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Mr. Baird, I can't excuse you permanently.

13 Apparently you are going to be called back at a later stage in

14 the proceedings.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

THE WITNESS: I understand, your Honor.

THE COURT: But you are free to leave at this time, and

we thank you very much.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

MR. KOTTMEIER: I have, your Honor, a request to

introduce certain items of evidence which I have previously

discussed with defense counsel, and we would like to make the

offer now so that at least this section is kept consistent with

our offer.


MR. KOTTMEIER: We would request the introduction of

Exhibit 9.0 " the sixteen by twenty impression in dust at the

Lease house photograph; Exhibit 177, the sixteen by twenty

28 photograph of the bed; and l77-A the overlay by David stockwell,


, I-' U , , .-., o L' , , , 5

" (

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

( 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

2-4

2S

26

'-,- . 27

28

(

4796

exhibit 178, the photograph of the spa cover; Exhibit 487, the

sheet that is presently in the folded condition~ Exhibit 617.

the display with the photographs with the dust and blood

impressions as well as the known U.S. size 10 Pro Keds Dude

tennis shoes~ 618 the display of the U.S. and Korean impressionJ

619 the Korean test impression, the small pictureJ 620 the

display of the bloody impression and a portion of the sole, 621

the photograph of the molds for the u.S. soles; 622 the

photograph of the blood saturated impression; and 623 a pair of

size 10 Pro Reds Dude model tennis shoes.

THE COURT: Any objection to any of those?

MR. NEGUS: No.

THE COURT: All right. All of those exhibits will be

received in evidence. You do not desire to circulate them

however at this time?

MR. KOTTMEIER: NO, your Honor. I think all of them have

been large enough that the jury has been able to see them as we

discussed each item.

Our next witness is flying in this evening and

should be here and we anticipate having a full day tomorrow, but

at least as far as today this concludes the available witnesses

that we have.

(People's Exhibits No.

90, 177, 177-A, 178,

487, 617, 618, 619,

620, 621, 622, 623 were

received in evidence.)

THE COURT: Okay. As I calculate it we're going to have

cm:PUTERI ZED TRANSCRIPT

I

;

I ~ .

n u , ! ,

I 0 f

f 0 (

LI , , , ,-

·13 f

f.,.

(

( \

4797

1 the 12 days of Christmas off. It amounts to about 12 days there

2 from the evening of the 20th of December until the 2nd of

3 January.

4 For your information I think that we are basically

5 on schedule, and we have hopes that the District Attorney will

6 rest his case before we take the Christmas adjournment.

7 I'm not sure if we will start the defense

8 immediately or whether the timing is where we can start the

9 defense after the holidays. But in case you get discouraged

10 about the length and duration of the trial, I guess we are on

11 schedule. We estimated it was going to be a long case in the

12 beginning, ladies and gentlemen.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

All right. We will break it at this time until

tomorrow morning at 9:30.

Remember at all times the admonition. Be very

careful. Don't just let it go in one ear and out the other.

Don't talk to anybody. Don't let anybody discuss it with you.

Don't express or form an opinion on the matter.

Have a nice evening.

Counsel, could I see you in chambers, please.


THE COURT: Counsel, I'm going to be very brief. Just so

that we might better husband our resources and prepare and not

waste time since you're all working so hard, can you enlighten

us as to how you think that this so-called admission will be

admitted?

My initial research, just in the -- I might save


,." U

f , o o LI ,

l j I 1 I 1 'j

f l , ! {

, -, t , f

"

4

( ,

-. ~.

4798

1 both myself and Mr. Negus some time if we might zero in on

2 something. There is a presumption in the Evidence Code Section

3 9176, Confidentiality, you may claim that there was no

4 lawyer/client privilege existing because of a fact that the

5 public defender hadn't been appointed at that stage, but the

6 privilege section says that one who consults a lawyer for

7 purposes of determining whether or not he is going to hire them

8 is entitled to claim the privilege.

9 I just don't know where you're going or how you

10 expect to get around some of what seems like a heavy burden for

11 you.

12 MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor. I think we would be relying on,

13 among other things, two cases which both deal with factual

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

situations where there is an attorney/client conversation which

is inadvertently overheard by a third person. I think factually

foundationally the evidence would probably show that this

conversation took place when in fact Mr. Negus represented Mr.

Cooper.

THE COURT: But my initial research again indicates that

the privilege may be claimed even against an eavesdropper unless

the holder of the privilege. namely the client, is aware that

eavesdropper is listening, either knows he is listening, or

perhaps has -- or should have known that he is listening.

So if Mr. Cooper or Mishook, or whomever it was,

Mr. Negus or Mishook, is insensitive and perhaps spoke in an

26 overly loud voice or something, that isn't going to be a waiver

27 as I look at it unless the client himself knows that there is

28 somebody next door who is able to overhear this and makes an


,-, U

I , ,-, o u ,

I , ·0 .0

( \.

(

4799

1 admission in in spite of it.

2 MR. KOCHIS: I think our argument would be that with the

3 doors open it was ostensibly made when they knew that there were

4 other people present.

5 THE COURT: What you are talking about basically is you

6 are going to contend that there was a waiver in which case I and

7 they can zero in on waiver?

8

9

MR. KOCHIS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: If I just might have your citations in

10 advance.

11 MR. KOCHIS: You have probably read both the cases.

12 People vs. Cox --

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

THE COURT: NO, I haven't read any of the cases.

MR. NEGUS: May I see --

MR. KOCHIS: I'm going to see Mr. Negus outside.

People vs. Cox, 263 Cal.App.2d at 176.

THE COURT: 262 Cal.App.2d 176.

MR. KOCHIS: 263.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. NEGUS: what's the date of that case, counsel?

MR. KOCHIS: About 1968.

MR. NEGUS: Was it an Evidence Code case?

MR. KOTTMEIER: I don't think so. Evidence Code really

wouldn't have been in effect at that point in time.

MR. NEGUS: It went into effect in '67.

MR. KOCHIS: People vs. poulin, P-o-u-l-i-n, 27

27 Cal.App.3d 54.

28 THE COURT: 27 Ca1.App.3d 64.


,-, U , , I-' a u , , ,

·,0 .::1

(

1

2

4800

MR. KOCHIS: 54.

THE COURT: Okay. We will take a look at them. That

3 saves a lot of shotgunning, however. Enjoy your evening.

4

S

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 .

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

2S

26

'.......... 27

28

(Adjournment.)

--00000--


."

" U , , 0 0 U , :J .L

." U .~ ...

Documents

rz - WordPress.comTissue & Cigarette Butt 102 8 x 10 Color photo of 5 Tissue and Cigarette Butt 103 Green & Yellow Bag 2975 & Contents ... 118 1 Pair Blue Jeans 119 1 Pair Grey T