ROYAL COMMISSION 20170323X€¦ · Web viewAnd you’re sure that it was Yogi that put you in the back cells?---It was Yogi. ... COMMISSIONER WHITE: I used a word that lawyers are

AUSCRIPT AUSTRALASIA PTY LIMITEDACN 110 028 825

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

O/N H-762183

THE HONOURABLE M. WHITE AO, CommissionerMR M. GOODA, Commissioner

IN THE MATTER OF A ROYAL COMMISSION INTO THE CHILD PROTECTION AND YOUTH DETENTION SYSTEMS OF THE NORTHERN TERRITORY

EXTRACT OF TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

DARWIN

11.10 AM, THURSDAY, 23 MARCH 2017

MR T. McAVOY SC appears with P.J. CALLAGHAN SC, MR MORRISSEY, MR B. DIGHTON, MS V. BOSNJAK, MR T. GOODWIN and MS S. McGEE as Counsel AssistingMS S. BROWNHILL appears with MR G. O’MAHONEY and MR C. JACOBI for theNorthern Territory of AustraliaMS T. LEE appears for witness ABMR CASSELLS appears for witness AUMR G. O’BRIEN-HARTCHER appears for witness AF MS P. MORREAU appears for witness BZ

.ROYAL COMMISSION 23.3.17 P-1©Commonwealth of Australia

.ROYAL COMMISSION 23.3.17©Commonwealth of Australia

P-2 AU XNMR GOODWIN

EXTRACT OF TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

RESUMED [11.10 am]5

MR GOODWIN: Thank you, Commissioners. Now, we have the evidence of AU, who is in the witness box. He has been asked to be referred to as . So that’s what I intend to do. For , we have Mr Cassells, I’ll allow him to

10 announce his appearance.

MR CASSELLS: Yes. Commissioners, my name is Cassells. For the record, C-a- s-s-e-l-l-s, I appear on behalf of .

15 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you, Mr Cassells.

MR GOODWIN: Thank you, for coming. I understand you want to take the oath, Commissioner White will take you through that.

20 : Yeah.

<AU, SWORN [11.10 am]

25COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. Please be seated. And thank you for assisting, the gentleman next to .

30 <EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GOODWIN [11.11 am]

MR GOODWIN: I was going to introduce him. , you’ve got your uncle there with you?---Grandfather.

35Yes. Thank you for coming to support your nephew. Thank you.

MR GOODWIN: You’re welcome.

40 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you.

MR GOODWIN: , you’ve given a statement to the Royal Commission dated 18 February 2017; is that right?---Yeah.

45 And is that the statement you can see on the screen there?---Yeah.


P-3 AU XNMR GOODWIN

And so it’s got your pseudonym and we’ve cut out your signature down at the bottom, but that statement is 11 pages long?---Yeah.

And is that statement true and correct?---Yeah.5

I tender that statement, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: statement is exhibit 128.

10EXHIBIT #128 STATEMENT OF AU

MR GOODWIN: e, I’m just going to ask you a number of questions about15 your statement and about your story. How old are you?--- ......

What, sorry?---I’m .

?---Yeah.20

And where did you grow up?---I grew up in community.

And what’s your community?--- .

25 And you mention, in your statement, that you’ve been through business, including initiation and ceremony, and I’m not – I wouldn’t ask you to give the details about that ceremony, but how old were you when you went through ceremony?--- I think, .

30 Okay?---Yeah.

And so you went through business before you went into detention, didn’t you?---Yes. Yeah.

35 And how many languages do you speak?---I speak few language.

Yeah?---Yeah.

Can you tell the Commissioners what languages you speak?---Well, I speak Barrarra40 most, and I speak ..... Kunwinjku, Yolngu Matha, Kriol, yeah.

Yeah.

So quite a few languages?---Yeah.45

Yes.


P-4 AU XNMR GOODWIN

COMMISSIONER GOODA: And English as well?---And English, yes.

Yes.

5 MR GOODWIN: Now, I just want to ask you some questions about when you started to get into a bit of trouble with the police. So you started getting into trouble for stealing from the community store and stealing cars; that’s right? That’s what you say in your statement?---Yeah.

10 And can you remember how old you were when you started getting into trouble?---

And one of those times you were arrested and then you missed court in . Can you remember that?---No.

15In your statement in paragraph 15, so if we can highlight that?---Yeah.

So you think you remember breaking your bail when – and getting into trouble for missing court, do you remember that?---Yeah.

20And why did you miss court?---I was just – I think I was at man ceremony, yeah, and that day – I didn’t really like understand the court orders and all that, you know. Yeah.

25 And so you didn’t understand the court orders?---Yeah.

About needing to be at court?---Yeah.

And did you tell anyone the reason that you missed court?---No.30

So you didn’t tell the police or your lawyers about why you missed court - - -?---No.

- - - because you were at ceremony?---Yeah.

35 So you think you did tell them?---No, I didn’t.

Okay. And then you got sent to Don Dale; that’s right?---Yeah.

How old were you, do you remember, when you got sent to Don Dale?---About 16 or40 17, yeah.

And you mention in your – you talk about, in your statement when you first went to Don Dale, and that you got dragged down to the back cells by a guard called Mr Yogi, on your first day in Don Dale. Do you remember that?---Not – not first day

45 but in, like – I think it was first week, but first day I got in there and the second or third days later, you know, and – yeah.


P-5 AU XNMR GOODWIN

So it was early when you first - - -?---It was earlier. It happened, yeah.

Do you want to tell the Commissioners what happened?---Yeah. When I first got inDon Dale, first, second, third day and I don’t remember what I was saying to him,

5 but yeah, and I think I was just, you know, I was probably being cheeky to him and he just come up, grab me by the back of my shirt and start dragging me down the back and he threw me in the back you know, and he said to me, “You’re staying in here until I come and get you,” you know. Yeah.

10 COMMISSIONER GOODA: So that was early?---That was early, yeah.

When you first went into Don Dale?---Yeah.

Okay.15

COMMISSIONER WHITE: And did the – no, don’t stand up, you can stay seated?---Yeah.

We’re not very formal here?---Yes, okay.20

Even though it looks it. Did the guard who took you down to the back cells, did he tell you why you were being taken down there? Did he explain it to you and how long you’d stay there?---I don’t remember, Miss, but all I remember is getting dragged down the back and, yeah.

25You can’t remember any talk with the guard?---No.

MR GOODWIN: And do you remember how long you stayed in the back cells that time?---I think I stayed for a couple of hours or maybe overnight, yeah.

30And you’re sure that it was Yogi that put you in the back cells?---It was Yogi. It was definitely him, yes.

So it couldn’t have been someone else?---No.35

And when you were in Don Dale, did you spend most of your time up the top, in the top section of Don Dale?---Yeah.

And what were the cells like up top? Can you tell the Commissioners what the cells40 were like that you usually stayed in?---The cells?

Yeah, or the rooms?---The rooms – the rooms had no bubbler to drink water, tap, it had no toilet, and yeah, we couldn’t – like, allowed to have books and all that and, yeah. We weren’t allowed to have anything in our cell, you know. Just sheets and

45 pillows, mattress. And that was – that’s it.


P-6 AU XNMR GOODWIN

And so, if you weren’t allowed books and those types of things in the cells, what did you do while you were in there?---Were like – with my cellie, we would just talk stories and you know, do push-ups and all that.

5 And - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Was there anyone else in the same cell as you, Mr?---Yeah. There were a few other youth detainees was in there.

10 You could talk to each other?---Yeah.

MR GOODWIN: And do you wish – how did you find that, not having any books or things like that. What did you think about that? Would you have liked to have books and those types of things in there?---Well, we thought about having, like,

15 books, games, and all that things, you know, but I don’t know why they wouldn’t let us have it in the cells. We got told that we’re in maximum, you know, not allowed things like that. Yeah.

And you mentioned your case workers in your statement, and do you remember who20 your case workers were while you were in there?---Yeah. What’s her name again,

Miss - - -

This is at paragraph 32 and 33 of your statement?---What’s the name - - -

25 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Well, it’s not a memory test for these things, so perhaps you could draw Mr ’s attention to remind him.

MR GOODWIN: Yes. Do you remember having a case worker called?---Yeah, Miss , yeah.

30And did you also have a case worker called ?---Yeah.

And what did they do for you? How did they help you?---They just help me out with numbers and all that, yeah.

35So numbers to call home?---Yes. All I remember was a and help me for number, and yeah.

Do you remember if they did any drug and alcohol tests with you, or assessments40 with you to talk about drug and alcohol counselling?---I don’t remember what - - -

You don’t remember. And do you remember them offering to help you get counselling while you were in there?---I don’t remember.

45 And did they talk to you about where you’d live after you were released. Do you remember that?---No.


P-7 AU XNMR GOODWIN

Now, I want to talk to you about the guards, about the Youth Justice Officers. What do you think made a good guard in Don Dale? What were the good guardslike?---The good guards, I – I don’t know how to say it but, like, some of them were all right, you know. We would see them in body language, you know, and see how

5 they act and we would talk to each – to each other too some time, like prisoners, you know ..... if we see guard ..... we would know that it’s not a good guard, you know.

So the not good guards were cheeky back to detainees?---Mmm.

10 And you mention two Aboriginal guards, a Dale and Leon in your statement; that’s right? Why did they make a difference, being Aboriginal? What was important about that to you?---Important to me? I don’t know, maybe because, you know, like, I don’t know how to say it, sir, but - - -

15 That’s alright. Well, you mentioned in your statement that Dale was from or had lived in and could speak to you in Kunwinjku?---Yeah.

So you could speak language to him?---Yeah.

20 And was that a good thing for you?---Yeah.

And did that help you, being in Don Dale, being able to speak language to a guard?---Little bit, yeah.

25 Yes?---Yeah.

And were you ever told by guards not to speak your language?---I think so, yeah.

Because you mention in your statement that one of the rules was that you weren’t to30 speak in language to guards?---Yeah.

So was that your understanding, that you weren’t allowed to speak language to guards?---Yeah.

35 And who told you that; do you remember?---I don’t remember which officers telling me that, but - - -

Well, you just remember that was one of the rules - - -?---Yeah.

40 - - - that you knew in Don Dale?---Yeah.

And you’d been through, as we discussed, you’d been through business back in; that’s right? Did you expect to be treated in a certain way when you

were at Don Dale, because you’d been through business?---Yeah.45

What way did you expect to be treated?---As a man, you know, like, we’re treated good, not bullying or, you know.


P-8 AU XNMR GOODWIN

And did the guards know that you’d been through business?---No.

And do you think it would have helped if they did know?---Yeah, I think.

5 Because they might have been able to treat you – or you could have explained to them the way that you expected to be treated under law?---Yeah.

And you mention that a number of guards threatened to bash you. You remember that?---Yeah.

10And two of those guards were Mr Yogi and Ben Kelleher; that’s right?---Yeah.

Now, both of them have provided statements after seeing your – what you’ve said about them – and Yogi says he never threatened to bash you. What do you say about

15 that?---He did threaten to bash me, Yogi, yeah.

And Ben Kelleher said he never threatened to bash you, and didn’t bash you. What do you say about that?---If – if he didn’t say that, then why would he tell to inmate to bash me? So, yeah.

20And we’ll talk about that now, if that’s okay, about the fight with and

?---Yeah, that’s okay.

Now, sometime in the middle of 2012, and assaulted you in the dining25 room; is that right?---Yeah.

Could you please tell the Commissioners what you remember about what happened on that day?---Yeah, I remember eating my supper on a table and all of a sudden I just seen came, like, behind me, you know, and he’s fallen at me so I ducked.

30 He hit my plate so I was at him and we started having a smash and I seecoming up behind me, and, yeah, punched me by the back of my head. Then I was feeling dizzy, you know, just needed a little bit of space. Officers couldn’t do to stop them, you know, I just got on the table and officer pulled my shirt really hard, you know. I just fell on the side of the concrete and, yeah, hurt my head and I’ve lost a

35 lot of blood. I was thinking, “I’m going to die.” I was thinking, “This is it,” you know, “This is where my life going to end.” And plus the officers telling me not to shut my eye, you know. Yeah. I was kind of freaking out, lost a lot of blood. Yeah. Then they took me to hospital and – but I didn’t know what it was – the fight for, you know, what was so bad and it’s – yeah.

40COMMISSIONER WHITE: Were they your friends, ?---Yeah. I had no problem with them too, but I had a fight with and we – first time I had a fight with and a week later, you know, me and him sorted it out and we got along. And was alright, but till – till I seen in Berrimah last year, in Darwin

45 Correctional Centre, told me that, “You have to come forward with this, you know, do you remember why we had a fight at Donny’s?” And I said “No. Tell me.”


P-9 AU XNMR GOODWIN

He said, “Them guards told us to bash you for a soft drink because you getting cheeky to them all the time.”

MR GOODWIN: And what guards did – did Aaron tell you what guards asked him5 to bash you?---Yeah. It was Ben Kelleher and his mate, , I think – or ,

can’t remember his name, but I remember Ben Kelleher, yeah.

And Ben says that he didn’t ask and to bash you. Do you know anything about that?-- told me this at B block, while we was at back cell,

10 Berrimah, adult jail. I’ve asked him and he said to me Ben Kelleher, you know, told him the same thing. That’s what told me, yeah.

So told you that when you - - -?---

15And then told you, last year, the same thing?---And then – yeah.

Now, one thing I just want to talk to you about, about the incident. So you said that an officer pulled you by the shirt and that’s when you fell, and hit your head; that’s

20 right?---Yeah.

Could you have just slipped and fell instead, or - - -?---No. I didn’t slip.

So you’re - - -?---I fell – I fell. I got pulled real hard, you know, yeah, that’s what I25 felt like, officers, just pulled my shirt and I fall on the side of the concrete and yeah –

the wall or something, and yeah.

Could it have been one of the detainees that pulled you?---No, it was officer.

30 You’re sure it was an officer?---Yeah 100 per cent it was officer, I seen it was officer.

So you saw - - -?---I saw it was officer pulling my shirt.

35 And you went to hospital and got some staples in your head - - -?---Yeah.

- - - where you hurt yourself?---Yeah.

And then you were taken back to Don Dale after you were finished at hospital; that’s40 right?---Yes.

What happened when you returned from the hospital?---I went back to Don Dale and– and I see , Ben and I think, they were smiling at me, and yeah, pointing finger at me, and I just looked at them. I felt shame, you know, and scared to myself,

45 and yeah. I don’t know, yeah.


P-10 AU XNMR GOODWIN

Now, Ben says he didn’t smile at you and didn’t laugh at you. What do you say about that?---That’s a lie. I remember him, I seen him. He’s pointing the finger at me when I came back from Don Dale – from hospital, sorry. When I came backfrom hospital to Don Dale, I seen Ben Kelleher, he was pointing the finger at me. He

5 was smiling to me and that’s the truth, yeah.

Now, you left Don Dale for the last time when you turned ; that’s right?---Yeah.

And you mention this in your statement. Just for the record, it’s paragraph 67. So10 the teacher bought you a cake and then at 10 am you were taken to Berrimah; that’s

right?---Yeah.

How – do you remember how long you had left on your sentence?---No.

15 Do you remember how long you ended up staying in Berrimah after you got shifted from Don Dale?---I don’t remember, no.

Was it a long time or was it a short time or - - -?---I think I had short time to go, yeah.

20COMMISSIONER WHITE: Presumably if it matters, Mr Goodwin, the matters will make it quite clear.

MR GOODWIN: Yes, and we do have those. Thank you, Commissioner.25

Now, I just want to ask you final questions now, particularly about your community?---Yeah.

Now, you say – and this is in paragraph 16 – that you thought Don Dale was going to30 make you better, but that it made you tougher. Can you explain a bit more to the

Commissioners what you mean by that?---Sorry, can you come again?

Yeah. What do you mean when you say it made you a bit tougher? How did it make you a bit tougher?---Well – well, those, like, bigger boys been there in Don Dale, you

35 know, and they got mistreated as well, and they come back, they taught us, you know. They told us what happened there. If you go in and – yeah. I don’t remember, like – yeah, I can’t remember everything too, you know.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Did you say then you can’t remember it helping40 you?--- .....

I didn’t quite catch what you said then, ?---Sorry, I’m nervous, Miss.

That’s fine?---I’m just nervous, yeah.45



Yes, of course, you are. Would it help you if you just took a moment to read paragraph 16 again of your statement.? If you need any help with it – the screens aren’t always easy, then you can just ask?---So can you ask that question again.

5 MR GOODWIN: Yeah. Sure. So you’ve said in your statement that:

I thought Don Dale was going to make me better, but I think it just made me tougher. I was on the streets and I was mad. I’d get in fights. All I was thinking in my mind was that I wanted to make a big name for myself. And

10 people would say, “Look at that boy, he comes in and out of Don Dale.” They would respect me. This was a new way of thinking after Don Dale. All the boys talked like that there.

So I just wanted to give you an opportunity to kind of explain what that feeling was15 like, you know, and how you thought Don Dale, rather than making you feel better,

made you feel tougher?---Because I think the guard, like, you know, how they treated you in Don Dale and, yeah, and all these wall, you know, being locked up away from our families, you know, being behind bars, missing out on good things. But all – all those – those things that has changed for me, you know, since I’ve been

20 in Don Dale. It took my stress out, you know, getting cheeky to officers, so yeah, and I thought – I think – sorry, I’m – you know. To myself I thought like I’d find a new way, you know, achieve this, so I ..... like, what I was like – what I said on the thing, you know, statement, so yeah.

25 And you mentioned about some of those challenges about being away from community and, you know, being in an enclosed space and behind bars, and so you said in your statement that it was hard being away from community; that’sright?---Mmm.

30 And why was it hard to be away from your community. Can you tell the Commissioners what was hard about that for you?---Like, first time, it was hard for me when I went in Don Dale. I was away from my family, you know, and I was taken – they took me away from my family and, yeah, I was finding it difficult, like, you know, to myself and I felt like I was struggling, you know, being alone.

35And were there – you mention there’s some differences between the town kids and the community kids. Is that right, in Don Dale?---Yeah.

What were the differences between those two kids?---Because like, me, I grew up in40 community and living in community life, it’s different than living town, you know,

yeah. Like – yeah, we would get, like – some time, like, the community kid – community kid would come into Don Dale, you know, they would get teased by the town kids, you know. Yeah, they would like be cheeky to them, you know, say a lot of bad stuff to them, and - - -

45And did you have a chance to practice your culture while you were in DonDale?---No.



Did elders from your community ever come into Don Dale?---No.

My final question - - -

5 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Perhaps just take up on that one.

MR GOODWIN: Yes, of course, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Would you have found that helpful, had you been able10 to see an elder from your community whilst you were in Don Dale?---Yeah – yeah.

It would have been a good thing to happen?---Yeah.

MR GOODWIN: So my final question is: do you have any ideas about how Don15 Dale could be improved to be better for children in the future? Is there anything that

you want to tell the Commissioners, if you were in charge of Don Dale, that you’d do differently?---Yeah.

What would you do differently?---I would, like, create activities, you know, keep the20 kids active, you know, instead of getting into fight and ..... each other and abusing

guards, you know, yeah. Make them do music, sports, you know, keep them busy and occupied, you know, with their time as well, you know, make their time easy, you know. Yeah.

25 Thank you, . I have - - -

COMMISSIONER GOODA: , would – I asked you before about getting in early in the part when your first time went in. Would it be a lot better if people told you what the rules were when you got into – well, I will ask you, did anyone tell

30 you the rules - - -?---No.

- - - when you got into Don Dale?---Not exactly, no.

Like how to behave, how to refer to guards, what to call them?---No. I worked it out35 all myself.

It wasn’t given in a booklet or anything?---I wasn’t given any book. I wasn’t told by the officers. I wasn’t told none of those things.

40 So it was really trial and error? You had to - - -?---Yeah.

You had to test a few things .....?---It was like try it, and it was wrong.

You found it was wrong, you got taken down the back?---Yeah, so - - -45

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Mr Cassells, do you have any questions you want to ask your client?


P-13

MR CASSELLS: No, Madam Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you.

5 MR GOODWIN: If could you released from his - - -

COMMISSIONER GOODA: , thank you for coming?---Yeah.

From, Commissioner White and myself, and thank you, uncle/grandfather, for10 coming in to support you, I was thinking about that when Commissioner White asked

you questions, you know, your uncle/grandfather’s ear would have been better. I think what was what Commissioner White was asking, if you had that support in Don Dale would it have made a difference? I think it’s made a difference today, so thank you?---Yeah.

15COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. We’re going to hear from another person now. So if – when you’re ready to go?---Yeah, we’re ready to go. Thanks.

Thanks again.20

COMMISSIONER GOODA: Thank you?---No worries, yeah.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.44 am]25

COMMISSIONER GOODA: Thank you.

MR GOODWIN: One brief administrative matter, Commissioners. If I could please30 tender the matters for cross-examination sought by the Northern Territory and the

responsive tender bundle that has been provided.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: For .

35 MR GOODWIN: Yes, for .

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. Exhibit 129.

40 EXHIBIT #129 MATTERS FOR CROSS-EXAMINATION SOUGHT BY THE NORTHERN TERRITORY AND THE RESPONSIVE TENDER BUNDLE

MR GOODWIN: And I should, while Mr Kelleher’s statement is already tendered,45 I should tender the responsive statement of Trevor Hansen dated 13 March 2017.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Exhibit 130.


P-14

EXHIBIT #130 RESPONSIVE STATEMENT OF TREVOR HANSEN DATED13/3/2017

5 MR GOODWIN: Those are the only matters in regards to this witness, Commissioners. I’m not too sure if we need a brief adjournment – no, we don’t require an adjournment for the next witness.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Have you finished? You’ve now completed your - - -10

MR CASSELLS: ..... thank you, Madam Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Thanks for coming, Mr Cassells.

15 MR GOODWIN: Ms McGee will take the next two vulnerable witnesses, Commissioners. She’s at the remote location with the witnesses, once we dial in.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Can you do a three-point turn there, Mr Cassells.

20 MR CASSELLS: I can do it on a dime, your Honour.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Well done.

25 ADJOURNED [11.46 am]

RESUMED [11.52 am]

30MS McGEE: Commissioners, it’s Ms McGee here at the remote location. I don’t think you can see me but I’m certainly hoping you can see the witness, Ms

.

35 COMMISSIONER WHITE: And Ms McGee, are we to use the witness’ own name rather than the pseudonym?

MS McGEE: On the basis that we’re in closed court, Commissioner, I would prefer to use the witness’s real name.

40COMMISSIONER WHITE: She seems to be agreeing with you. Ms , can you see Commissioner Gooda and I clearly on your screen?

MS : Yep.45

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Okay. Can you hear - - -


P-15 XNMS McGEE

MR O’BRIEN-HARTCHER: Commissioner, sorry.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: We’re just establishing those practical things first. So, yes, you’re going to announce your appearance.

5MR O’BRIEN-HARTCHER: Yes. My apologies for interrupting, Commissioner. O’Brien-Hartcher. If it please the Commission, I appear for AF or .

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Thank you.10

MR O’BRIEN-HARTCHER: Yes. Thank you.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Mr O’Brien-Hartcher, and you’re in the room.

15 MR O’BRIEN-HARTCHER: I’m also in the remote location with the witness and counsel assisting, if it please the Commission.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. And , next to you is your mother; is that correct?

20Yep – yep.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Thank you.

25< AFFIRMED [11.54 am]

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you very much. Thanks Ms McGee.30

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS McGEE [11.54 am]

35 MS McGEE: Thank you, Commissioner.

, could you please state your full name?---

Okay. And you’ve prepared two statements to the Commission; is that right?---Yep.40

And have you got those two statements there in front much you?---Yep.

And the first one is dated 25 November 2016?---Yep.

45 The longer one, and the second one is dated 9 March 2017; is that right?---Yes.

I’d like to tender those two statements, the first dated 25 November 2016.


P-16 XNMS McGEE

COMMISSIONER WHITE: That is exhibit 131.

EXHIBIT #131 STATEMENT OF DATED 25/11/20165

MR ..........: No objection to either of these tenders.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you.10

MS McGEE: And the second dated 9 March 2017.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Exhibit 132.

15EXHIBIT #132 STATEMENT OF DATED 9/3/2017

MS McGEE: Now, , the second statement that you prepared, you did that20 after receiving some statements in response to your first statement; is that

right?---Yep.

And you’ve clarified in that second statement some of the comments from your first statement. Commissioner, there are two statements that are responsive statements

25 that I would seek to tender at this point.


MS McGEE: The first is the statement of Mark Christopher dated 3 February 2017.30 It’s statement number 56 in the statements bundle.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. Should I give that a separate exhibit number though, Ms McGee. So is that – is that right?

35 MS McGEE: Yes, please.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Exhibit 133.

40 EXHIBIT #133 STATEMENT OF MARK CHRISTOPHER DATED 3/2/2017

MS McGEE: Yes. Thank you. And the second responsive statement that I would tender separately is the statement of Mr Victor Williams dated 3 February 2017.

45 That’s statement number 55 in the statement bundle.


P-17 XNMS McGEE

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Thank you. Exhibit 134 for Mr Williams’statement.

5 EXHIBIT #134 STATEMENT OF VICTOR WILLIAMS DATED 3/2/2017

MS McGEE: Thank you, Commissioner.

10 , I might at this point also just – and Commissioner, tender the – that of the bundle of documents received from the Northern Territory government yesterday afternoon. Is it sufficient if I identify that bundle for tender as the Northern Territory government’s bundle of documents excluding certain tabs.

15 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes, I think that’s sufficient identification. Thank you, Ms McGee. So exhibit 135.

MS McGEE: So it will be the Northern Territory government bundle excluding tabs7A.

20COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes.

MS McGEE: And tabs 9 to 17.

25 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you.

EXHIBIT #135 NORTHERN TERRITORY GOVERNMENT BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS EXCLUDING TABS 7A AND 9-17

30

MR O’BRIEN-HARTCHER: There’s no objection to that tender, if it please theCommission.

35 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you, Mr O’Brien-Hartcher.

MS McGEE: Commissioner, there will be a few other documents that I will come to in the course of ’ evidence and I will do those at that time.

40 With those formalities out of the way, , your statement refers to your statement in detention at two Don Dale facilities; is that right?---Yep.

And you have, in fact, been in detention for four times; that’s right, isn’t it?---Yep.

45 And so you’ve been to both the old Don Dale in 2014?---Yep.

And the new Don Dale in 2015; is that right?---Yep.


P-18 XNMS McGEE

And each time you were on remand, not on sentence; is that right?---Yep.

In addition to the time that you spent at the new and the old Don Dale, you also spent in detention in what you describe as the “Darwin correctional centre”, or

5 Holtze. Do you remember that?---Yep.

And why did you describe it as the “Darwin correctional centre”?---I don’t know. It’s more secure. It’s got doors that you’re not – you have to wait for them to open, like electric doors, glass ones, and you get your – there’s only a block with a

10 basketball court and one little room where you can sit down and watch TV, and that’s it. It’s tiny.

Okay. And was the place that you call the Darwin correctional centre, where you were staying, was that actually next to the adult prison?---Yeah. Next to – it was in

15 the mental facility, I think.

Okay?---Yeah, next to the prison.

And did you know, when you went to the mental health ward or the facility there at20 Holtze – did you know that the particular area that you were in was only for

youth?---Yeah. Yeah. There was only youth came into our - - -

Yes. So while you were there did you see any of the adult prisoners at all around the place?---No.

25Okay. Just got one note that I think in your statement you say that it was in

2015, but do you agree that you were at Holtze at 2014, not2015?---Yeah, 2014.

30 , you mentioned that you were at Holtze for that you were there. Can you tell the Commissioners a bit more about what your time at Holtze was like ?---I don’t know. Waking up, having breakfast, getting let out probably an hour – for an hour, like, only like probably couple of metres from where the rooms are. Just being able – didn’t have school there. You

35 were just able to sit down, watch TV, really nothing to do.

..... did you see - - -

40 COMMISSIONER GOODA: , how big was the area that you were allowed to go into outside your cell?---There was – outside my cell there was probably a little room, probably it was only 3 metres or 4 metres by 4 metres, a box room with a TV on the wall, and then outside there was an area with a basketball court and that’s it. Small area. Just the width around the basketball court. That’s

45 how big it was, yeah.


P-19 XNMS McGEE

MS McGEE: And where would you have your – where would you have your meals?---In the little room right outside of the doors to the room where you get lockdown, yeah.

5 Okay. And were there any – were there other rooms that were sitting empty around you?---All the rooms on the far left of me were all empty and I was in the first room.

Did you see any of the boys that were there in ?---I seen the boys. They were across the block from me. I

10 heard them yelling when I got let out to play basketball. That’s about it, or when I was in my little room where watching TV, the little room is, I just seen one of them cleaning the floor, that’s about it, from the other side, yeah.

Okay. And who else did you interact with in that time?---Only jail guards, yeah.15 One lady worker, yep.

And when you were doing your – when you were having recreation time on the basketball court, what did you do, and was anybody interacting with you?---Just one of the girls worker would kick the ball just back and forth, and that’s about it. There

20 was nothing else really to do.

Okay. And how much time were you spending? You said you weren’t going to school. You were – how much time were you having out of your cell to start with?---Probably an hour and a half now.

25Okay. Is that for – the total for the day or - - -?---Yeah. About the total for the day, yeah.

Okay. Alright. And was that the routine – well, was that essentially all you did for30 the that you were there?---Yep.

Do you remember if you went to court at all during that time?---No.

No. Okay. And so – yes, you mentioned you didn’t have much to do. How did you35 feel in those few days that you were there?---I don’t know. Bored. I don’t know.

.

I wanted to ask you some questions about something you mention in your statement about the new Don Dale, and you talk about being handcuffed each time that you

40 went to and from school. Do you remember whether at the old Don Dale they used handcuffs on you to go to and from school?---When I first went in there they didn’t, but then after like a week or so, they started putting handcuffs from school, back to school and to school.

45 Okay. Was that at the old Don Dale or the new Don Dale?---The old Don Dale.


P-20 XNMS McGEE

The old Don Dale, okay. And you also mention that you were patted down on your way back from school?---Yep.

Did that happen at both Don Dales?---Just the new one.5

Okay. And was it something that happened every day or - - -?---Yep. Every day.

Okay.

10 COMMISSIONER WHITE: And – can I just ask this, : was that true for all the detainees who were going to school, was everybody handcuffed?---Yep.

And escorted then by the Youth Justice Officers to school into the classroom?---Yep,15 to school, yep.

And when you got into the classroom would the handcuffs be removed then?---Yep.

Alright. Thank you. What distance was it from your accommodation block to the20 school?---Well, the old Don Dale it was only probably less than 5 metres and the

new one, probably 100 metres or something, little bit further.

Well, we’ve got some maps, so I suppose we can see for ourselves how long it is, but that’s your estimate, it’s around about that sort of distance?---Yep.

25Okay. Thank you.

MS McGEE: When you were at the new Don Dale, was it as soon as you arrived, you know, your first day at school, handcuffs were used or was it – did it happen

30 later?---It happened a little bit later. They – they would just let us walk in a group, but then after being in the new one for a while they started putting handcuffs on us.

Okay. And do you remember if any of the staff told you why they were using handcuffs on you to take you to school?---No.

35Okay. You also mention, , in your statement that shackles were used on you going to and from court, and you’ve been shown some records that show your court movement records and handcuffs register. Do you remember being shownthose?---Yep.

40And do you agree that none of those records have any reference to shackles being used specifically on you. But you say that you do recall that shackles - - -?---Yep.

- - - were used on you? And do you remember about how many times that happened45 to you going to court?---Twice.


P-21 XNMS McGEE

Okay. And when that happened, were you travelling with other detainees to court as well?---One time I was – I was the only girl that got shackles, I was only girl going to court, but there was other boys who got shackled too.

5 Okay. So that was one time that you were?---Yes.

And were you in a vehicle or a car with those boys as well?---In the Don Dale van.

Okay. And what about the second time?---I think I was with another girl, but I got10 shackled. Different kind of shackles, like there was a material one, like a seatbelt

and then the other ones was the chain shackles.

Okay. Can you describe to the Commissioners whereabouts the shackles were put on you?---On my ankles.

15Is that the material ones or the chains, or both?---The chain ones were on my ankles. The material ones was on my ankles, but then I had handcuff like these shackles at – are like handcuffs they go around your waist, and you have to hold your hands like this with the shackles, yep.

20Okay. And did any of the staff ever tell you why you had to have shackles?---No, but I just thought that it was because some of the boys had tried to escape.

Okay. When you arrived at court, how would – when would they take the shackles25 off you?---Going into the court before we got put into the cells.

Okay. So you drive in and would they take the shackles off before you went into the court cells?---Yep – yep.

30 Okay. You talk in your first and your second statement about a time when the phone at Don Dale was not working, and I know you’ve had some phone records shown to you. Do you remember being shown those?---Yes.

And I think you describe that – can you just describe to the Commissioners your35 memory about when you couldn’t use the phone or when it was harder to use the

phone. Can you just describe how that worked?---When – in the old Don Dale it was broke once, one of the girls broke it and it was the only phone we could use, and we had to wait a while for the case worker to put in to get a new phone.

40 And so what did you do during that time? Could you make any calls at all?---No, no phone calls until we got it back.

Was there another phone there that you could use?---Not in the old Don Dale.

45 Not in the old Don Dale. And what about in the new Don Dale?---In the new one the phone was broken, but there was another phone in the basketball court, which the girls could use if they were able to go to the basketball court for their outside time.


P-22 XNMS McGEE

Okay. Was it harder – I think you describe that girls didn’t get as much time on the basketball court, so did that make it harder?---Yeah. Yeah, every time we would ask that, the workers would always say, “The boys already got it booked out.” So we would have to wait till we could get it booked out.

5Did that mean that if the boys – they’d apply for using it for phone calls as well?---For the boys?

So did you have any – when the phone - - -?---Phones were broken.10

Yeah, how did you go about using the other phone on the basketball court?---It was only if we were allowed there ..... allowed to use it, but only some of the guards would let us use it.

15 I just wanted to see if you agree with what some of these records show. So when you were at Don Dale in the new Don Dale in 2015, there was, do you agree, you didn’t make any phone calls between ?---Yep.

But – and on , which is during that period you had a loss of recreation time20 which would have – did that mean you were - - -?---Wouldn’t be able to use it.

Yep. And you went to the hospital from ; you remember that?---Yep.

And do you accept that during that period there were other females who were using25 the phone? Okay. Alright. And, just to jump backwards, in 2014 there were no

phone calls – you didn’t make any phone calls between ?---Yep.

Okay. But do you – you recall you had your mum and visit you on?---Yep.

30Just before that? Okay. And do you accept that during that period from

that there were other girls using the phone?---Yep.

The other period was between – in 2014 between . Do you remember35 being in the HDU during that time?---Yep.

And what was the position with phone access during – when you were in the HDU?---You weren’t allowed to use the phone I guess, or there wasn’t a phone in HDU, so I don’t know, if you were naughty you weren’t allowed to use a phone, I

40 guess.

And so you didn’t make any calls for those when you were in HDU?---Yep.

One of the other matters you talk about your statement, , is some medical care45 issues that you had. Just shortly after you arrived in the new Don Dale in 2015,

and you mention that they were a couple of times where you asked to see the nurse about ?---Yeah.


P-23 XNMS McGEE

Remember those? Do you remember the first time you saw the nurse about?---Yes.

I think you’d been in Don Dale for a few days by this point; does that sound about5 right?---Yeah.

And do you remember, had you seen a nurse at Don Dale before that, for that particular time?---Probably when I first went in there.

10 Okay?---But then.

Yeah. And how would you go about asking to see the nurse. How did you get to see the nurse?---You have to put in – I was told you had to put in a pink slip, I think it is,

15 to put a complaint or if you need to see the nurse you have to write down what’s wrong with you or something, and then your guards that are on duty have to go and hand it in to the nurse.

Okay. Commissioners, I’m just about to take to a few documents in the20 supplementary tender bundle. They are documents – sorry, they’re in the original

tender bundle.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Not the supplementary.

25 MS McGEE: 248.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: What’s that number, I’m sorry, Ms McGee, I over spoke you.

30 MS McGEE: Not at all, Commissioner, 248, 249 and 260.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: 260?

MS McGEE: Zero, yes.35


MS McGEE: , these are not the pink slips, but I’m just showing you some forms. The first one there is a medical request form dated – it says 2014, but

40 could I just ask you to read ..... as well – we’ve got the redacted version there. If Ijust read out the explanation of the request there:

has more which appear swollen and red in the area has been given Panadol as directed this morning,

45 however she would like to see the said the are getting worse and she can .


P-24 XNMS McGEE

Is that the description you think you would have given to one of the workers- - -?---Yeah.

- - - when you first asked to see the nurse? And can you see the date there on that5 document, it says just about halfway down the page .14. Do you think that is

actually 2015?---Yes.

Should be?---I reckon it would have been, yeah.

10 Fits the description of when you wanted to see the nurse?---Yes.

Okay. I tender that medical request form, please, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Exhibit 64.248.15

EXHIBIT #64.248 MEDICAL REQUEST FORM DATED 3/5/2015

20 MS McGEE: If you just go to the next document, 249 for the technicians, do you see the date on that document is 2015 and the explanation of request there is:

are a problem.

25 Do you recall asking to see a nurse again about your on that date?---Yeah.

I tender that request form.

30 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Exhibit 64.249.


35MS McGEE: And just the last one there, the date of this one is 11.5.2015 and the explanation is:

needs to see medical about, medical has not seen her yesterday, and no medication was give

yesterday.

Do you recall this was after you’d returned from hospital?---Yeah.

45 Do you recall speaking to a Youth Justice Officer about that?---Yep.

And do you recall asking to see the nurse about that?---Yep.


P-25 XNMS McGEE

I tender that request form as well, please, Commissioner.

MR O’BRIEN-HARTCHER: No objection.

5 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Exhibit 64.260.


10MS McGEE: And just finally on the medical issues, in the course of preparing your statement you were shown some medical records by your lawyers; do you recall that?---Yep.

15 And did you use those documents to refresh your memory?---Mmm.

About the dates and what had happened? Commissioners, those documents are at tender bundle 250 and 267, and I would seek to tender those as well.

20 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Exhibit 64.250 and exhibit 64.267.

EXHIBIT #64.250 MEDICAL RECORDS

25EXHIBIT #64.267 MEDICAL RECORDS

MS McGEE: Thank you, Commissioner.30

, one of the things you describe about that time was that when you were in hospital you say the doctors told you that you had , and do you accept that the medical records that we’ve just referred to, none of those actually say “ ”?---Yep.

35Could you just explain how it came about that, I mean, you say the doctors told you, but can you just explain what they said to you?---Well, one of the jail guards said it was , but I thought it was and like, that’s what you normally get

, so I just thought that. But then when I got to the40 hospital, they said it was .

Okay. That was a Youth Justice Officer, sorry, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: You ask your question, Ms McGee and I’ll ask mine.45

MS McGEE: I was just going to clarify, because I think in your statement you say that a doctor told you it was , and you said just then it was the Youth


P-26 XNMS McGEE

Justice Officer. Was it the Youth Justice Officer that told you?---Yeah, that told me, yeah.

Okay, and do you remember what the doctors told you or you just said that?---They5 just said it was a .

Okay. Alright. Thank you. And finally, I know you’ve described in your statement some of the conditions of being in isolation, and you talk about at the new Don Dale being in the C Block, and I know in preparing your supplementary statement you had

10 a close look at your bed history; is that right?---Yeah.

And I just wanted to show you a document. Did you go through this – sorry, ..... Commissioner, this document is tender bundle 322. I’ll just show you that. Is that the document that you reviewed to confirm where you were saying staying at certain

15 points at the new Don Dale?---Yep.

Okay. I tender those – that bed history, please, Commissioner.

MR O’BRIEN-HARTCHER: No objection.20

EXHIBIT #64.322 BED HISTORY

25 MS McGEE: And can you just describe briefly to the Commissioners what an isolation cell in C Block was like?---It was a small little room with cement floors and a cement bed frame for your bed to go on, mattress. Had metal screens on one sideof the window and a little toilet, and a little bubbler, and a camera in the corner. They’re not very clean either.

30Okay. And when you were in there, was the – what did you have in the cell with you?---Just mattress and that’s it.

Can you describe about how big the cell would have been?---About 2 metres by 435 metres, like 4 metres, yeah.

And what was it – what did it – if you – this is where you were ..... for a long period of time; is that right?---Yeah.

40 For about how long?---Couple days at each time.

And what did it feel like while you were in there on your own?---I don’t know. Hot. All I had got – all had to do – all I – well, all I did was walk around and around in circles, like from wall to wall in – in a square, yeah. Nothing to do. I don’t know.

45 Feel alone, I guess, in there or when you try – because that water, it taste like metal, like rust too, and you have to ask for water and sometimes you don’t get water, only some of the guards give you water. Yeah.


P-27

Commissioners, those are my questions.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Mr O’Brien-Hartcher, do you have some further questions that you would like to ask Ms ?

5MR O’BRIEN-HARTCHER: Thank you, Commissioners, I only have three very quick questions.

The first is you told Ms McGee about being brought back from school and having10 searches or pat downs done. Were they done by male guards or female

guards?---Females.

Okay. Was there ever an occasion when you had a male guard put shackles on your legs?---Yeah. Once, going to court, everyone was getting shackled and they said I

15 was getting shackled, but I didn’t know what for, and I think it was one of the big prison guards that put the shackles on my legs.

How did that make you feel?---A bit uncomfortable. He told me that – they said Ihave to put my hands against the wall and put my knees on a chair while they lent

20 down and put it on my legs.

When you were at Holtze and , how did that make you feel?---Not very good.

25 I don’t want to make you cry, , I’m sorry. And when you had no school atHoltze, how did that make you feel?---I don’t know. By myself.

Alright. I’m sorry to make you upset. Those are my questions, if it please the commission.

30COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes, thank you, Mr O’Brien-Hartcher. We’ve completed hearing from now, Ms McGee? Nothing further?

MS McGEE: Yes. Thank you, Commissioner. Nothing further.35

COMMISSIONER WHITE: , Commissioner Gooda, and I are most grateful to you for coming to speak with us. We know that it’s taken a long time to prepare your statement and also it’s very helpful, the way that you’ve acknowledged other propositions that have been put to you from other documents and accepted

40 where you’ve made mistakes. That’s been really useful for us, and we thank your mother very much for being there beside you to assist you to give evidence to us. So thank you. We’ll terminate the connection now.

COMMISSIONER GOODA: Thank you, ?---Thank you.45

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.25 pm]


P-28

MS BROWNHILL: I have some matters in relation to other materials dealing with that witness, AF. I note that counsel who - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Aren’t here.5

MS BROWNHILL: - - - elicited the evidence isn’t here. I didn’t want to interrupt while the witness was – while the connection was open to the witness. I didn’t think that would be appropriate.

10 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Or helpful anyway, perhaps, not in the circumstances of how it finished.

MS BROWNHILL: Yes. So I’m in your hands, Commissioners, about whether to wait until - - -

15COMMISSIONER WHITE: Ms McGee gets - - -

MS BROWNHILL: Ms McGee can come back and address those issues. I haven’t had the opportunity to speak to her about them, either. It might be that we can work

20 it out.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: That would probably be useful for everybody, wouldn’t it? We’ve got – I’m looking at the time and I think we have another witness or two before lunch. So perhaps you could take it up with her, because it

25 doesn’t involve the witnesses.

MS BROWNHILL: Well, I take it, it doesn’t. I have to assume that. I haven’t – it’s a matter that was identified, at least, in the matters for cross-examination document and I take it from the cross-examination that proceeded that it wasn’t

30 proposed to be addressed with the witness. So - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: If it’s an oversight, and sometimes these things can happen, I’m sure Ms McGee will readily accept that and perhaps it can be dealt with in another way. There doesn’t seem to be any problem with this witness

35 understanding when she might need to be reminded of some things, so that might work with this one.

MS BROWNHILL: Perhaps. It’s not clear to me – well, anyway, it’s not appropriate to canvass it in the absence of Ms McGee anyway.

40COMMISSIONER WHITE: Alright. Thank you. We’ll take it up when Ms McGee returns.

MS BROWNHILL: Thank you.45


P-29

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I might ask if, Mr Goodwin, one of those who are instructing you perhaps could send a message to Ms McGee that it might be convenient if she could come by the Commission room before lunch. Thank you.

5 MR GOODWIN: My understanding was that there was to be another vulnerable witness with the same connection. It doesn’t appear that Ms McGee alluded to that during the connection, so it might be that things have changed and my understanding is a misunderstanding.

10 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Might not be. That’s too hard for us.

MR GOODWIN: I understand that Ms McGee has informed solicitors assisting that a short break was needed to comfort the witness, AF, , and we’ll proceed with the next vulnerable witness through the same connection.

15COMMISSIONER WHITE: And that – we think that’s BZ?

MR GOODWIN: Yes.

20 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Ms McGee, are you ready to proceed?

MS McGEE: Yes, we are ready Commissioners. Can you see the witness on your25 screen now?

COMMISSIONER WHITE: We can, thank you. And we have audio. And do you at your end?

30 MS McGEE: Yes. We can all hear you loud and clear, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. And is this witness, Ms McGee, to be referred to by her alpha pseudonym?

35 MS McGEE: No, Commissioner. We will refer to her by her true name, Ms


40 MS MORREAU: Commissioners, if I might – sorry, just announce my appearance, it’s Paula Morreau, I’m counsel for , and I’m with her in the room along with my instructing solicitor, Matt Derrig from NAAJA.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you, Ms Morreau. I’m sorry, we can’t see you45 here in the room, so we tend not to notice if you’re trying to catch our eye, as it were.

Thanks Ms Morreau.


P-30 XNMS McGEE

< AFFIRMED [12.32 pm]

Thanks, Ms . Thanks you, Ms McGee.5

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS McGEE [12.32 pm]

10 MS McGEE: Thank you, Commissioner, can you please state your full name to theCommissioners?---

And you have prepared a statement to the Commission dated 20 February 2017; is that right?---Yes, I have.

15Is that the statement that you made?---Yes.

And the contents of that statement true and correct?---Yes.

20 I tender that statement, please, Commissioners.

EXHIBIT #136 DATED 20/2/2017

25MS McGEE: And the statement that you have provided to the Commission is about

and he was previously a detainee at the Don Dale Youth DetentionCentre?---Yeah.

30 I’m not going to ask you to go through the whole statement today. It is now part of the evidence before the Commissioners, so you – don’t feel like you have to repeat what you’ve already said, but what I’d like to do is ask you some questions about a few particular aspects of the statement?---Yeah.

35 Just for you to expand and tell the Commissioners some more detail?---Yeah.

Okay. You talk in your statement about ’s schooling and education, and during the time that he was out of Don Dale he was on and off attending some form of school; is that right?---Yes.

40And for a while he was doing schooling through an alternative education program, and what did that involve?---Trying to get him past year 10. It was one on one with the teacher, just, yeah, learning to get him to past year 10.

45 Okay. And how did that – how did one on one learning come about? How did that arrangement come about?---Just because he wasn’t at school a lot, he couldn’t cope in a normal school situation, so we explored and that’s what we found.


P-31 XNMS McGEE

Okay. And you talk about – there was one particular woman who worked one on one with ?---Yeah.

And how frequently was that interaction?---She’d pick him up every day.5

Yes?---And take him, like, sometimes they’d do work in the car on the way to school or sometimes they’d go out and do cooking and that was always, yeah, every day she’d pick him up.

10 And did talk to you about how he found that experience?---He got on really good with his teacher.

Yes?---Even after he’d finished school he’d still talk about her. Like, yeah.

15 And do you think it was that one on one engagement, you said he had some trouble being at school?---Yeah.

Was it that different environment do you think that helped him?--- ..... yeah, and she’d just listen, like, to what – like, yeah, what wanted to do. It

20 wasn’t, like, it wasn’t so rigid and stuff like the school.

And do you recall if anybody from DCF or any other service assisted you to get involved in that alternative education program?---No, I don’t recall, but I

don’t think so.25

Okay. You mentioned that stopped going to school when that program finished in the area; is that right?---Yeah.

Did say anything to you about wanting to go past year 10 or doing – or30 wanting to do other qualifications or education?---No, not really. He just wanted to

go to the army.

Okay?---Like, yeah.

35 I was going to ask you about that in one minute. But you mentioned also thatdid some work experience. Could you tell the Commissioners a little bit about the work experience?---He did work experience at and it’s just like they work with motors, boat motors and boats and motorbikes and stuff like that, he liked that. The police helped him get it when he got out of jail. Yeah, he really

40 enjoyed ..... because he liked hands-on things.

Physical work?---Yeah.

Was there another piece of work experience that he did with some45 animals?--- . When he was doing ..... the he’d do one day at ,

volunteer at


P-32 XNMS McGEE

What kind of things would he do there?---Feed the animals, clean out their pens and, yeah, just general stuff they needed done around the .

And I think you mentioned that he had had some good feedback from people that he5 did this work experience with?---Yeah, and he was a good worker they all reckon,

yeah.

So moving then to ’s goal and his application to the army, when did he first start talking to you about wanting to go to the army?---No. Ever since he was a little

10 kid that was his – what he wanted, yeah.

Yeah. And so he was a little kid and I suppose when he was little what was his idea about why he wanted to join the army?---Just to hold a gun, yeah – just, yeah.

15 Okay?---Yeah. To have a gun legally, I suppose.

And as he got older were there other reasons why he wanted to join the army?---Yeah. Just the money and the travelling ..... yeah.

20 Okay. So he could see, he was looking - - -?---Yeah, looking into the future. He could see a future if he joined the army. He could see himself having in the future.

Okay. And I think the – do you recall about the timing of the application, how old he was?---He was 17.

25Okay. And do you know how he – the application, I assume, was quite involved and comprehensive. Do you know if he had any assistance with the application?---Not really. I think he did, but I didn’t know about it at the time.

30 Okay. And was still under a protection order formally, under the care of the department at that time?---Yeah.

Is that right? Do you recall if the department or DCF were supportive of his application? Did they think it was a good idea?---Yeah – yeah, I think, yeah.

35And you and your partner, , were you also supportive of the application?---Yeah.

Why did you think - - -40

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Ms McGee – sorry, Ms McGee, could I interrupt tosay that Ms is going off our screen. Just needs a little bit of moving the chair a little bit to her left, or sit back. That’s excellent. Thank you.

45 COMMISSIONER GOODA: That’s even better.


P-33 XNMS McGEE

COMMISSIONER WHITE: That’s even better. Sorry to interrupt you, but you were actually walking out of our screen.

MS McGEE: Sorry. My question was why did you think it would be good for5 him?---I just the discipline and to give him a future, yeah, because he ..... training in

whatever you want, like yeah, just the discipline and to have a future and be independent, I guess.

And I suppose – would it be fair to say then there were a lot of people in ’s10 life who were hoping that the application would be successful?---Yeah.

That probably created a lot of expectation for him?---Yeah, maybe.

You describe then that when he – I think some of the records that the Commission15 has show that was successful in his application, but that there were really just

not enough spots for people of his age. Can you just tell the Commissioners a bit about his reaction and how he responded when he was told that he wouldn’t.....?---Yes, because there was only like three days before he was meant to go away that they told him, and he was just broken – yeah, just so disappointed and broken,

20 yeah.

And do you remember what you said to at the time?---I was trying to tell him, “There’s next year, like, you’ll be 18 next year, if they’ve taken you this year, you’ll be right next year, 18.” But, yeah.

25Do you recall any response by any of the DCF workers at the time, or any - - -?---No, nothing.

What – do you recall any, I suppose, what happened then for ?---I don’t30 remember any support or anything for after that.

I think shortly after this time was in and out of Don Dale a couple of times. This is in the of ?---Yeah.

35 And were you still having regular contact with during that time?---Yeah.

And what kind of contact? I suppose generally as well prior to this, but whilewas in Don Dale, what type of contact were you having with him?---I always had visits and phone calls.

40Right, can you tell us - - -?---Like nearly every day there would be a phone call and once or twice a week we would always visit.

I know you talk in some detail about your visits with and his, I suppose,45 behaviour at - - -?--- ..... visits.


P-34 XNMS McGEE

At certain visits, you talk about the information that you were getting from DonDale, but that was really - - -?---Vague, really vague.

Vague?---Yeah.5

And what – when were you getting information, if you can just - - -?---When - - -

..... to the Commissioners?---When we’d ring up and I – like, we’d ring up for visits and stuff and they’d say, “No, there’s been incidents.” Or when we were in visiting

10 you could ask the guards and that, but you wouldn’t really get much information from them. It would always be, “Because of an incident,” or anything, they never asked you how to support him or anything like that, or, yeah.

So you were aware that there were incidents happening?---Yeah, but never knew15 what they were.

What they were. Okay. Did you know either from your own communication with people at Don Dale or with the people at DCF, did you know the names of staff that worked with or - - -?---What, like in corrections?

20Yeah?---Yeah, most of them, they used to just call them by nicknames. I don’t know their full names or whatever, but I know some of their names, yeah.

Okay. I suppose my question is did you know – did you know anything about the25 specific people that were working with in Don Dale, other than who you

would perhaps meet or run into at a visit?---No.

Okay. Do you think if – do you think there would have been some use in having conversations with staff at Don Dale about the incidents? Would you have liked to

30 know in relation to that - - -?---Yeah, what was going on and that, yeah.

Okay. And if there had been suggestions that had been misbehaving or was having difficulties at Don Dale, what do you think you would have responded to? How would you have responded to that?---Just try and support him and try and let

35 the people at Don Dale know the best way of working with , I suppose you’d say.

And can you give some examples of ways that you would talk to about his behaviour? I don’t mean to put you on the spot. We haven’t really talked about

40 that?---He used to talk a lot about it, about it at home and that, but I don’t think he really had anyone in there to talk about, like to talk to thing – to talk to you about things, I don’t think he had anyone to vent it with, like, yeah.

Yes. So he didn’t come home after being at Don Dale and tell I about, “This was this45 person who spent a lot of time with me,” or - - -?---No, it was never. On phone calls

every now and then, he’d say, “I had a visit from this person or this person,” but he


P-35 XNMS McGEE

always used to say it was FACS, not knowing one – I guess he just assumed it wasFACS, so he would just tell us it was FACS. Like - - -

When you say FACS, you mean?---Welfare.5

Welfare?---Yeah.

Yes. Okay. And you talk – you do talk in your statement about one person from welfare, Dave?---Yeah.

10And that he and had a good relationship; is that right?---Yeah. He used to go in and like, to do models and stuff with . I think that was the ..... like, when they were trying to – they was trying to support him to keep him out of trouble inDon Dale and go and spend time with him, and build model cars and stuff, just to

15 build up that relationship.

Yes. And enjoyed that?---Yeah, got on really good with Dave and even when he was out they had contact with each other.

20 Did you – had you met Dave before?---Yeah.

And what was your impression of him?---He was pretty cool, like, easy going and, yeah, good for the kids, like he’d listen to actually understand whatwas trying to say, and yeah.

25Yes. Okay. I just wanted to ask you also some questions about ’s transfer to the adult prison. You were at court on the day that he applied to be sent to the prison; is that right?---Yeah.

30 And about – does that sound about the right time?---Yeah.

Okay. And had told you before that day that he wanted to be moved?---Yeah.

35 Do you remember when and how he told you that?---I think it was on the phone and he just hated it, he just hated the way he was treated and hated being locked out the back all the time.

So this was on the phone from Don Dale, do you mean?---Yeah.40

Okay. And I know – again, I know you’ve talked about this a bit in your statement, but I think it would be good for the Commissioners to hear, what kinds of things was

telling you about his treatment in Don Dale?---He got treated like a dog, left in the back cells all the time, never got let out. Yeah, fights, like, and not getting

45 along with the guards. But it wasn’t really into detail. Fight. Yeah.

Okay. When you say “fights”, would - - -?---Yeah.


P-36 XNMS McGEE

Is that, did he give you any more detail than that?---Well, he did tell us, like, of a few fights that he’d had with kids or a few “scraps”, as calls it, with the guards, but not in detail.

5 Not in detail. Did he ever mention any of the guards’ names to you that he’d had scraps with?---He probably has, but I can’t remember them off the top of my head.

Sure?---Yeah.

10 Sure. Okay. And did talk about how the guards would interact with him in any more detail?---They just – mostly when he was in the back cells and that he couldn’t get water or anything off them. I don’t think there was really anyinteraction unless they were going to search him or move him somewhere, like, yeah.

15 Did you notice any difference in, for example, the contact that you had while was in Don Dale?---What do you mean?

Was your phone contact consistent or - - -?---Yeah, when he - - -

20 Or did that change?--- ..... yeah, it was. Every time, like, when goes to the back cells, it would just drop off. Like, it would be once in a blue moon, but when he was in the normal thing it was something every day, couple of times a day.

When you say once in a blue moon how - - -?--- ..... yeah, like - - -25

- - - often do you mean?---Depending on how long he was out the back, sometimes it would only be once a week, sometimes – yeah, sometimes longer than a week.

Okay. And would he tell you – would he say to you, “I’m in the back30 cells”?---Yeah, he can’t – he can’t ring because he’s in the back cells.

Okay. Was there any difference in the length of time of your phone calls, as in if he told you he was in the back cells - - -?---No, not – no, not unless we were talking to him. Didn’t matter if he was in the normal cells or the back cells, only time he

35 would get cut short if the guard, like, if they’d just started their phone call and the guard wanted them to go have a shower or go do something, then the guard would make them get off the phone.

Okay?---Yeah, even after one minute or, yeah.40

And would he be able to call you back. Would you get another call?---No. There –if it was in the normal cells they ..... three hours.

Yes. Okay?---So he would call us back if he was in the normal cells after the three45 hours.


P-37 XNMS McGEE

Okay. , did you – have you – at the time, around that time or since then, has anybody who was in detention with told you anything about how – what they saw or heard of in detention?---Yeah.

5 Would you be comfortable telling the Commissioners what other people have told you?---Just that did it really, really hard, like – like he tried to look after the younger kids, like, he didn’t – I don’t know, ’s the kind of boy that would just give everyone a go, and he wouldn’t fight someone unless he could see a really good reason. And, yeah, but I know, like, everyone just talks about how badly he was

10 treated in there, and – and a lot of the kids are grateful, like, he actually tried to stick up for them, and yeah, but - - -

When you – so the people who are telling you these things, are they – are they former detainees as well?---Yeah.

15And were any of those – you don’t have to name names, but were any of those other children – did you know them before? Were they people that knew before he was in detention. Most of the ones that have, like, grown up with , because they’re just in and all grew up, like, together.

20Yes?---Yeah. Some – some of the ones, there’s a couple that ’s only met fromDon Dale, but a few of them, most of them were before he was in Don Dale, yeah.

And I think you say in your statement that you didn’t think that would25 actually ask the magistrate to be transferred. Why didn’t you think he would actually

ask to do it?---I just didn’t think Don Dale was that bad. Like, I didn’t think that he thought it was that bad. I knew he was upset and wanted to go but, yeah, I just didn’t– I don’t know, I just didn’t think he would actually ask in court for it.

30 Okay?---Yeah. I didn’t really want it to happen, but you know, I suppose it was – he felt better treated there than he was in Don Dale.

What were your concerns about - - -?---Just being with adult prisoners and – yeah.

35 Okay. And you describe ’s behaviour while he was in court that day, and you say that when the magistrate was first hearing the application, that he was really wild and was really worked up?---Yeah.

Can you just describe to the Commissioners in a bit more detail what you were40 observing of his behaviour?---Just, he was really tense and aggro and, yeah – I don’t

know, yeah. He just – I don’t know – just, yeah, he – argumentative, like, with – yeah.

Do you mean in court?---Yeah, in the court, yeah, because I didn’t get to see him45 before court. You don’t get to go down the cells and see them until they come up.

But we didn’t get to speak to him until later when the judge had left the room.


P-38 XNMS McGEE

Is that at the point where you described that you could calm him down a little bit?---Yeah.

But you say that the guards still had to, your words are “manhandle him down to the5 cells”?---Yeah.

What do you mean by - - -?---They had to grab him, and I think there was two or three of them. They had to actually grab him and half carry him, half drag him down the stairs to the cells. He just refused to move until – like, he was actually holding

10 on to the chairs and stuff.

You’ve said he refused to move until – what was it that he was waiting for?---Until, like, we had to explain to him that you have to come ..... sort it out with the prisons and you have to come back, like, they’re going to bring you back up. And then he

15 seemed to calm down a bit and half went with them, do you know what I mean?

Yes. And so when the magistrate came back and eventually told he would be transferred, you describe that he was relieved?---Yeah, he just seemed more calm then, yeah, not so physically tight, if I can say that. I don’t know how to explain it,

20 but just not – yeah.

And do you recall if he – did he – do you know where he went immediately after court?---No. I don’t know. I know they took him down to the cells.

25 Yes?---But then I don’t know.

I should clarify. Do you know if he went to the adult prison that afternoon or if he went back to Don Dale?---Straight to the adult prison, I think, yeah. Not really sure but that’s what I – yeah.

30The Commission has had a transcript produced from the hearing of that day, and Iunderstand you’ve had an opportunity to review the transcript?---Yeah.

Is that right? And is that – what’s in the transcript that’s - - -?---Yeah.35

The day that you recall?---Yeah.

Okay. Commissioners, we have also obtained the audio of that hearing. I don’t propose to play it today, and I have this morning had a bit of difficulty in identifying

40 specific individual files. It might be convenient if I perhaps formally tender that at a later date in another closed session, but I would seek to tender the transcript which is in the supplementary tender bundle 190.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: So the transcript of the hearing in the – was it then the45 Magistrates Court, Ms McGee or was it the Local Court?


P-39 XNMS McGEE

MS McGEE: It was in the youth justice court, I think we should call it, on

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. That can be exhibit 137.5

EXHIBIT #137 TRANSCRIPT OF HEARING IN YOUTH JUSTICE COURT DATED

10MS McGEE: Thank you, Commissioner.

Just finally, , I wanted to ask you a few questions about your observations of after he was transferred to the adult prison, and did you continue to visit

15 ?---I didn’t visit was much because – couldn’t get there. Like, when he was in Berrimah we did, but then when he got moved out to Holtze, couldn’t visit as much because no car, no buses.

Yes. Okay. I see. Did you continue to have phone contact with him?---Not when he20 was in – when he first started I think we did for a little while, because he was youth.

I think they give him the three phone calls like they did in Don Dale, but then when he had to start paying for them they dropped off again.

How expensive are the phone calls?---I don’t know. But he used to say pretty25 expensive. Like, he’d rather have food.

When you did visit him?---Yeah.

How did he look to you?--- ..... Berrimah he was like more relaxed and just happier,30 like, and he could actually have cards or books. He wasn’t just sitting in his cell. He

was actually – he’d actually tell me about books that he was reading and stuff, which he never did anything like that in Don Dale.

Okay. Do you know how he – how he got the books and .....?---There was someone35 who used to go around, I think just like a portable library sort of thing, and they’d

drop them off at the cells, like, yeah.

Okay. Was there – I suppose I’m asking you to describe some of the differences between what told you about Don Dale and what he said about how - - -?---It

40 was just mostly like how he was treated. He thought he was actually being treated as a human, instead of like Don Dale, he used to think he was treated like a dog.

Did he say anything about how the guards at the adult prison were different?---Yeah. They used to talk to him like a normal person, and yeah, they didn’t used to harass

45 him, he could get along with them, like, just have a normal conversation with people, instead of Don Dale, he didn’t like to talk to anybody because he’d get it back nasty, but he seemed to enjoy, yeah, being in Berrimah, because he even, I think he even


P-40 XNMS McGEE

went for courses. Because I remember one phone call they asked me not to book a visit because he’d be out of the jail doing something, in the adult jail.

Something – did you find out later what he was doing?---A white card, he got a white5 card or something. So - - -

Okay. For the period that was still 17 and at Berrimah?---He did get moved to Holtze, I’m not sure when, but - - -

10 Okay. He was 17 or 18?---No. He was still 17.

Okay?---But they changed the prisons over.

Yes – yes?---Yeah.15

When he was 17 ..... he was in protective custody on his own, but can you describe what he told you about how he was interacting with other people at the jail, even though he was 17?---Yeah, they could walk past him or talk to him when he was in his cell, or he’d have someone come with his food or to clean out, like, his bins and

20 stuff, or when they come with the library and that. Or I think he said when he was in the exercise yard he could talk to them over the wall or something.

Okay. Did you know whether – where his accommodation cell was? If there were other people around in the area?---Yeah, he was in – just in a block, a full block, like,

25 the cells were all full. Like, yeah.

Okay. I did want to show you one other document. Commissioners, this is supplementary tender bundle document 58 and this is a – essentially a visits record and it records ’s visits from all people - - -?---Yeah.

30- - - at Don Dale and at the adult facilities?---Yep.

I appreciate, I don’t know that I’ve actually – I haven’t shown you this document before?---No.

35And I might – I’m going to seek to tender it today, but it records your visits with

on a number of occasions and I tender it, Commissioner, and I’m sure ifthere’s anything to be said about it later, it could be - - -

40 MS MORREAU: There’s no objection to that.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Ms Morreau. Exhibit 138.

45 EXHIBIT #138 VISITS RECORD


P-41 RXNMS MORREAU

MS McGEE: Commissioners, those are my questions.


5 MS McGEE: I suspect Ms Morreau might have a few questions.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Thank you, Ms Morreau, do you have some questions for Ms ?

10 MS MORREAU: I do. Only a couple of questions, but I’m sitting on this side of Ms . Is that going to make it difficult for you to follow her evidence? Should I move over to where Ms McGee was asking questions.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: We can’t tell yet. But we seem to be managing at the15 moment.

MS MORREAU: Alright. We’ll start and if there’s a problem please let us know.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: When you’re answering, Ms , if you do20 what you’re doing now, when I’m speaking, if you just turn back as though you’re

talking to us, that would - - -?---Yeah.

That would mean Ms Morreau doesn’t have to move then. Thank you?---Yeah. Okay. Thank you.

25

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MORREAU [1.02 pm]

30 MS MORREAU: Okay. I know it’s difficult in the abstract to talk about ways of how you might have helped with his, you know, misbehaviour when he was in Don Dale. But do you think it might have helped if you knew the details of what was going on. So .....?---Yeah ..... what was happening we could have thought – if we knew what was happening we could have thought of more in ’s way of

35 how to deal with it.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Had he been a bit of a management problem for you when he was a boy growing up? Did you learn how to manage him better?---Yeah, it was only mostly around school that he was really bad, like, naughty, but yeah, that’s

40 why we looked into other things and that’s why we had the alternative education, just trying to work with .

Did he have difficulty in fitting into the normal school program?---Yeah. When he got to middle school, I think it was too many people, he couldn’t – yeah, he didn’t

45 get along with the teachers. He was better one on one.

Right?---In smaller groups.


P-42 RXNMS MORREAU

Thank you. Ms Morreau, thank you.

MS MORREAU: Thank you, Commissioner. You talked about being a support to him. In what ways do you think you might have supported him if you knew the

5 details of what he was dealing with in custody?---Just to find him some support that could help him, or even talk to him about it, or we didn’t have any details to work with. It wasn’t – like, “There’s been an incident and you can’t come for a visit,” but we could never get any details about what the incidents were. So we didn’t know, like, yeah, didn’t know if they were serious or little incidents, we were never told

10 anything like that.

You mentioned in your statement at one point you found out that he was taken to hospital because he had – had been detected. Do you remember how you found that out?---No. He said that he was having so they took him to

15 the hospital and that’s when they found the , and was the one who told me about that after the hospital, like, I didn’t get told from anyone else except for .

And was that when you visited or rang or spoke to him on the phone?---I think it was20 on a visit.

COMMISSIONER GOODA: How old was at the time, Ms?---I don’t know. 15 I think, around 15.

25 MS MORREAU: You also spoke in your questions to Ms McGee that about this time when you’re in the court and was holding onto the chair, I think you said, and refusing to leave and that he only agreed to go when you were able to calm him down. What was he waiting for? What was he saying he would not leavefor?---He didn’t want to leave until he knew he was going to the adult prison. He

30 was just going to just stay there and do whatever he could to get in more trouble to get sent to that adult prison. He wasn’t – yeah, he was going to give – he was going to make it so they had no choice but to send him there.

And finally, were you ever told by anyone, I mean the authorities, whether it be35 people at Don Dale or even the Department of family – Families and Children, about

any complaint being made by about his treatment at Don Dale?---Nothing. Once from the lawyer, when he asked if he could go to the adult prison, yeah.

That’s all you knew about?---Yeah, that’s all I knew about.40

Yes. Thank you, Commissioners, they were my only questions.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you, Ms Morreau. We’ve finished the evidence now, Ms McGee?

45MS McGEE: Yes. Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioners - - -


P-43 RXNMS MORREAU

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Ms McGee, I think Commissioner Gooda wants to askMs a question.

COMMISSIONER GOODA: Ms , Ms Morreau went there a little bit,5 but just more generally do you think the kids in detention would benefit from more

contact or more involvement with parents while they’re in detention and particularly as they’re getting out of detention? Like, you know, you’re saying was in and out a fair bit. Do you think it would be better for everyone, the guards, the detainees, if parents or carers were more involved while they were in

10 detention?---Yeah. Yeah. was pretty lucky. You see a lot of kids in there who don’t have anybody to support them, but then when they come out, they don’t have any support either. It’s like the family, but they don’t offer you anything extra, like any – any support from anyone else to try and help keep them out.

15 So the earlier that – while they’re in detention, but then when they’re getting out, the earlier that contact happens with parent and carers would be a beneficialthing?---Yeah, I think it would be.

Thank you.20

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Ms , for talking to us. Commissioner Gooda and I are most grateful for the trouble you’ve taken to tell us about your interactions with the youth detention system and, of course, some of the child protection system, and we know that it’s meant that you’ve had to revisit

25 painful things, and so we really do appreciate you doing that. Thank you very much.

COMMISSIONER GOODA: Thank you.

MS McGEE: Commissioners, before you rise, there was one matter I just thought I30 should flag if I can. It will take a moment. Pursuant to an order that was made

yesterday, Ms and her legal representatives were granted access to a number of statements that touch on ’s time at Don Dale, so I have had the opportunity since about 9 pm last night to look at those statements. I do have instructions to make an application for leave to appear in the Commission to ask

35 questions of several of those witnesses, but more particularly to have access to some of the documentation that those witnesses are referring to as well. That will be put into writing and – with as much haste as we can – submitted to the Commission’s office.

40 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Ms Morreau for that indication. We’ll wait to get your application.

MS MORREAU: Thank you.

45 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. Thank you, Ms .


P-44


COMMISSIONER WHITE: Now, Ms McGee, do you know who is taking the next5 vulnerable witness, who’s AB?

MS McGEE: Yes. I believe it’s Mr McAvoy, and I believe it is also from a remote location, but it’s not here.

10 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks. Alright.

MS McGEE: But I have – yes, it’s not me and I had thought Commissioners that that next witness might be at 2 pm .....

15 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Ms McGee. No doubt someone will tell us.Alright. Thanks you. We’ll terminate the connection.

MS McGEE: Thank you, Commissioners.

20 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Mr Goodwin, are you able to throw some light on this?I didn’t know which remote location and I thought we might be asked to sit on to deal with the next witness, AB, but that’s not the case?

MR GOODWIN: My understanding is Ms McGee’s, that AB will commence at the25 fixed time of 2 pm. Mr McAvoy will take his evidence, and I believe it will be done

by remote location to the typical place where the Commission has been using for that purpose.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. And Mr Ferguson?30

MR GOODWIN: I understand that there have been discussions behind the scenes regarding when Mr Ferguson – it’s appropriate for Mr Ferguson to go back. I don’t think there’s been – well, I’m not in a position to indicate a final position, but I know that work is being done.

35COMMISSIONER WHITE: That’s alright. As long as he is not forgotten.

MR GOODWIN: No, not at all.

40 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Because he has got to come back. And that he’s not unduly inconvenienced by the delay. The main thing is to keep him informed, isn’t it?

MR GOODWIN: Indeed.45

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Alright then. Adjourn till 2 o’clock then. Thank you.


P-45

ADJOURNED [1.11 pm]

RESUMED [2.08 pm]5

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Mr McAvoy.

MR McAVOY: Commissioners, we’ve recommenced this afternoon in closed court.10 The next witness is known by the pseudonym AB.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes, we do seem to have a lot of people in the courtroom, Mr McAvoy. I take it they are all necessary?

15 MR McAVOY: I’ll make the inquiry, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Since we’re not doing it by remote location, the arrangement really does seem rather unnecessary, doesn’t it? Everybody is squashed into that corner of the room.

20MR McAVOY: That’s right.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Since the witness is here in person, why is this happening?

25MR McAVOY: I’m not sure, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I think probably – before the break we were told that it was a remote location appearance. So if you wish to take what you might regard as

30 your ordinary places, ladies and gentlemen, please feel comfortable about spreading out. Otherwise, you may be too close to some people.

MS BROWNHILL: Does that include at the bar table, Commissioner?

35 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Only if you want to, Ms Brownhill.

MS BROWNHILL: Thank you.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Because this is closed court are we to refer to this40 witness by his acronym or by his full name?

MR McAVOY: I can indicate, Commissioners, that the witness is happy to be called by his name, given that it’s in closed court.

45 COMMISSIONER WHITE: That’s good. I’m sure he, as well as we, feel a bit funny calling him letters of the alphabet. Are you comfortable with that?


P-46 XNMR McAVOY

Yeah.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I’ll administer then the affirmation before we go any further, if that’s appropriate to do that now.

5MR McAVOY: That’s suitable, Commissioner.

< AFFIRMED [2.11 pm]10

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Right. Kindly sit down. Thank you.

15 <EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR McAVOY [2.11 pm]

MR McAVOY: , do you mind if I call you ?---Yep.

20 You’ve prepared a statement for the Royal Commission?---Yes.

If you just have a look on the screen in front of you, you’ll see a document?---Yes.

Do you recognise that document?---Yep.25

You can see it’s got the initials, AB, but if you look down the bottom, in the bottom paragraphs 7 and 8 you can see some words there. Do you recognise those words as having come from your statement?---Yeah.

30 And you signed your statement, the original of it, yes?---Yes.

And to the best of your knowledge that’s – that statement is true and correct?---Yeah.

Commissioner, I will tender the statement of this witness, but I can indicate that there35 are some further redactions that I’m in negotiations with ’s lawyers about

before it can be uploaded. And I’ve discussed this with my learned friend, the solicitor, and we anticipate that we should be able to have completed thoseredactions and uploaded by this afternoon, but it’s just not quite ready to go that next step at the moment.

40COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. Well, I’m sure that’s understood then by those who do the uploading. And so I’ll mark it then exhibit 139. But, if it’s necessary, with the restriction that it not yet be uploaded because the usual practice direction is that that occur as soon as counsel tender it. Thank you.

45

EXHIBIT #139 STATEMENT OF


P-47 XNMR McAVOY

MR McAVOY: , how old are you now?--- .

And you live in Queensland now?---Yes.

5 You’ve come here today to give evidence in relation to your experiences at Don Dale- - -?---Yes, I have.

- - - Youth Detention Centre. , you should know that the Commissioners have read your statement?---Yep.

10So we don’t need to go through all of your statement but there are some parts thatI’m going to take you to today?---Yes.

Firstly, can you just describe for the Commissioners the general period when you15 were in Don Dale Youth Detention Centre, and your impression of what it was like

in that centre?---It was vile, disgusting, dirty. Yeah, I didn’t like anything about it. It was a hellhole, really.

And this was in 2014?---Yes.20

Do you have any memory of the cells themselves and what they were like?---Yeah, they were disgusting. They stank, reeked of urine and shit. Mattresses were all dirty and mouldy. Clothes were, yeah, just unwashed.

25 And do you have – did you have some concerns about the bedding and the clothing when you were there?---Yeah.

What were they, what were the concerns?---Clothes never got washed with washing powder and they were washed in cold water.

30COMMISSIONER WHITE: That’s the sheets and the pillow ships; is that right?---Yeah, and the clothing.

And – this is a practical question I suppose: how could you separate out, say, your35 undies and socks from the other boys’ undies and socks?---Depends what unit you’re

in. If you’re in H Block all your clothes get washed by the guards, I’m pretty sure.

In H Block?---Yeah. We had no access to washing machines there, they you justdo all the washing for us there, but when you’re low security you wash your own

40 clothes.

And were they all put in together, and did you get your own things back, or did you just take what was available?---Yes. Your clothes you had to share, you can buy jocks there, but people tend to steal them.

45So you didn’t have your own underwear?---No.


P-48 XNMR McAVOY

Effectively, you just took what came out of the - - -?---Yes.

- - - the laundry system?---Yes. And - - -

5 Okay. Were there any kids – are you going to be dealing with that point? I don’t want to jump in ahead of - - -

MR McAVOY: Go ahead, please, Commissioner.

10 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Were there – did you have any concerns about that, things that are close to your body, like your jocks and your socks?---Yeah, I never wore jocks, because - - -

Was there a particular reason for that?---Yeah, they gave me a ringworm, and that15 was the story about the jocks there, that no one wore them because they give you

ringworms and it happened on many occasions.

So you – did – you saw that happen to the boys?---Yeah. And it’s happened to me myself.

20Thanks, Mr McAvoy.

MR McAVOY: Thank you, Commissioner.

25 Do you have any recollection of what the food was like, ?---Sometimes it was alright, okay-ish. Rest of the time it was pretty disgusting.

And by “disgusting” what do you mean?---It was like slops.

30 Like slops?---Slops, yeah.

Did you have any concerns about bugs?---Yeah, we found cockroaches in them, like parts of cockroaches.

35 In your meals?---Yes.

I just want to ask you some questions about strip searches?---Yep.

Do you recall being strip searched?---Yes.40

When – can you tell the Commissioners when you were strip searched?---Every time you’re admitted into detention and every time you come back from visits – court visits and occasionally after family visits.

45 And are you - - -


P-49 XNMR McAVOY

COMMISSIONER GOODA: Excuse me, so that’s family visits in the detention centre?---Yeah, it’s only happened occasionally though.

Okay?---Yeah.5

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Well, you knew what the concern was, of course?---Yeah.

MR McAVOY: Do you feel comfortable enough to speak about the strip search10 process here in court today?---Yep.

Can you tell the Commissioners what happened when you’re strip searched?---Well, you’re placed into a little shower area. You’re asked to take your shirt off, run your fingers through your hair, back of your ears. You take your shorts off, your jocks

15 off. Turn around, lift your left and right foot up at both different times and wriggle your toes and then you squat and cough.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I think you describe a different – a different search system in another jurisdiction where you have some privacy?---No.

20Not you? Must be one of the other vulnerable witnesses.

MS LEE: Perhaps the use of the word jurisdiction ..... a little bit.

25 COMMISSIONER WHITE: You can explain .....

MS LEE: , I think what Commissioner White - - -

MR McAVOY: If I can – sorry, Ms Lee, I don’t think you’re microphoned there.30 Sorry.

MS LEE: I apologise, Commissioners, I’ve taken an unusual seat, and that’s because I find it really difficult to see from over here. , I just wanted to explain what Commissioner White was saying. I think that she’s asking that

35 you’ve had a strip search somewhere else, not in the NT?---Yes, sorry, yeah.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I used a word that lawyers are very comfortable with, but perhaps not everyone else.

40 MS LEE: And it was that time when you got strip searched not here?---Yes.

It was a bit different?---Yes.

What was different about it?---They gave us a tiny bit more privacy. Like, we were45 allowed to hold our genitals, a shirt on. And that’s about it, everything else is the

same except for the squat and cough. You don’t squat and cough.


P-50 XNMR McAVOY

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks. Sorry, Mr McAvoy, we ran amok there a bit.

MR McAVOY: No. Thank you, Commissioner, and my thanks to Ms Lee.

5 How did you feel about being strip searched?---I hated it, like it was shame, and Ijust got used to it in the end.

I just want to ask you about your arrival at Don Dale the first time. Were you – can you recall the first time you went there?---Yes.

10Do you remember whether you were told any rules about how the centre worked?---No.

If you weren’t told the rules how did you find out about what you were supposed to15 do and not do?---Well, I was only there the first time for, I think it was a night, and I

left straightaway in the morning and got bail. But the second time I got in I had to learn – learn the rules and ask round about them.

So you asked around to the guards or - - -?---The detainees, because you get told20 nothing, really, in there.

Apart from the times when you were having visits and going to court, were there other times when you were strip searched that you can remember?---Not that I can recall.

25Perhaps – or are you aware of others being strip searched when, say, things like pencils or other things went missing?---Yep, like at school.

That’s from the school?---Yeah, if they know it’s you or they’ve got suspicion they’ll30 strip search you.

If they don’t know it’s you, will they strip search more than one person?---Yeah, at times.

35 And were you told about the classification system when you arrived at DonDale?---No.

You had to figure that out, did you?---Yeah. There was a piece of paper, like, on a board in – there’s a little room where, like, all the cells are, all the rooms and there’s

40 a board in there, and that’s – it has got a piece of paper on it that explains the classifications.

And you could understand from reading that?---Yeah. Kind of, yeah. It just explained what you get, so like no radio, no TV on one classification. Then another

45 you get a radio, a TV, a drink, and a chocolate bar.


P-51 XNMR McAVOY

I just want to ask you some questions about the medical treatment that you received. Do you recall receiving medical treatment while you were at Don Dale?---Yes.

There was an occasion – can you just tell the Commissioners about the medical5 treatment that you did receive.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: What was that, Mr McAvoy?

MR McAVOY: The medical treatment.10


THE WITNESS: I retrieved – received treatment for a stye, or a bite on my eye, butI had to complain about it for a bit, and then I put a request form in, and I’m not sure

15 how long that took after for me to go to the hospital.

MR McAVOY: And that’s – you’ve talked about that – that stye in your statement?---Yep.

20 Paragraph 85, Commissioners, if you want to follow.

You’ve said that you can – you had the stye in August 2014. Do you think it might have been September 2014?---Yeah, I’m not sure of the dates because it was so long ago.

25Can you remember now how long it was before you first raised the concern – the need for medical treatment and when you actually went to the hospital to get treatment?---No. I know I complained a bit about it.

30 Complained?---Because it was hurting. Yeah.

Thank you. I just need to ask you some questions now about the at-risk procedures at the Don Dale centre. Do you know what I mean by, when I say at-risk?---Yes.

35 Have you yourself spent time in the at-risk cells?---Yes, I have.

Do you have any views that you can tell the Commissioners about what it’s been like for – what it’s like for detainees in the at-risk cells?---It’s exactly like being in the BMU, there’s no help – you – for – like, no help for you at all in there.

40Is it what – do you think it’s a safe place or a safe cell to be in, the one that you were in at-risk?---Yes and no. Like, it is close to staff room, so if anything happens they can come straight to you. Like, it’s a door away.

45 Do you think that it’s safe – those cells are safe in terms of preventing people from harming themselves?---No.


P-52 XNMR McAVOY

And why is that?---There’s hanging points everywhere in – everywhere in.

And you figured that out for yourself?---Yep.

5 Talking about hanging points, have you had any experience of anybody trying to do that, trying to hang themselves?---Yes,

And when – do you recall when that was?---No, not the date.

10

And if I can just ask you, if it’s okay - - -?---Yeah.15

20.

And do you – are you able to have visits from your family when you’re in the at-risk cells?---Yes.

25And you’ve had visits from your family?---Yes.

Do you know whether your family are notified that you’ve been put at-risk?---I don’t know.

30You don’t know?---I’m not too sure.

.35

You talked about having a visit while you’re at-risk. Is it easy to talk to family and friends about being held in an at-risk cell when you’re in the Don Dale centre?---Yes and no. I guess it’s - - -

40 Depends who it is?--- - - - all on who you are.

You’ve said that being at-risk is like being in the BMU, I think you said?---Yes.

So do I take it from that that you feel as though you’re in isolation?---Yeah. Well,45 you are in isolation when you’re at-risk.

And is it high security – it’s called the high security unit?---Yep.


P-53 XNMR McAVOY

What things are there for detainees to do when you’re in the High Security Unit at- risk?--- At-risk, I’ve gotten a book a couple of times in there, that’s about it. You’re allowed – sometimes they take you out for a little bit of rec time, so you go on the basketball court with a guard. That’s about it.

5Is there any TV to watch?---No.

So, apart from reading, is there anything else to do?---No. Just sit in your room, listen to the radio.

10And how – how often would you be taken out of the cell. I mean, is it like you get –you get to go out to the rec room several times a day?---No. It’s only once.

And how long would that be for, from memory?---All depends on what guard takes15 you out.

And so it could be – what’s the longest, do you think?---I honestly can’t remember but I know it could be over – it would be about an hour.

20 And the shortest?---Yeah. 30 minutes.

I just want to ask you some questions about being – other times you were sent to –you were sent to your room?---Yeah.

25 You’ve been suspended from school at Don Dale?---Yes.

And what happens when you get suspended from school?---You have to stay in your room all day.

30 Do you remember whether you were given school work to do or not?---No. But I do remember the first time I went into Don Dale they had a program going, if you weren’t going to school you were working. So you’re mowing the lawns and stuff like that, but they stopped that.

35 Did you do some of that work?---Yeah, I’ve done it once.

And they stopped that, so you’ve also been then suspended from the school and been confined to your room?---Yeah.

40 Were you able to watch TV on those occasions?---No.

Were you able to read a book?---Yes.

Did you always have books in your room that you could read?---Yeah.45

Okay?---They just – when you get to spend a day, leave everything in your room except for your mattress.


P-54 XNMR McAVOY

I just want to ask you some questions about an incident that you’ve referred to in your statement with another detainee named ?---Yeah.

Do you remember that – the incident with that you referred to in your5 statement?---Yes, I do.

Can you explain to the Commissioners of that event?---Yep. Everything is not 100 per cent, but he was getting walked through the dining room, because he had to go to BMU for a placement, and one of the guards have slammed

10 him onto the floor, and then, yeah, he got dragged to the back cells, BMU.

So do you know where he was being walked from?---Yes. I’m pretty sure it was the corridor with all the cells in it.

15Do you know where he was being walked to?---Walked – can you repeat that, sorry.

Do you know where he was being walked to, sorry?---Yes, it was the BMU.

20 And you – you’ve said he got “slammed”?---Yeah.

What do you mean by “slammed”?---Just rugby tackled kind of thing.

Rugby tackled and down to the ground?---Yeah.25

Do you know how many guards were in the rec room?---No. There would have been a couple. I can only recall one guard being there.

You can only recall one guard. You’ve referred to that guard in your30 statement?---Yeah.

Yeah. You said there were other detainees in the rec room?---Yeah.

So I’ll just name them, ..... , and35 ?---Yeah.

Were there any others that you can remember, or was - - -?---No, they’re the only ones I can really recall.

40 Do you remember whether or what was saying to the guards, you said he was being a bit cheeky?---He was going off.

Yes. Do you remember the sort of things he was saying?---No, I can’t remember what he was saying.

45Was he swearing?---Yeah.


P-55 XNMR McAVOY

Was he doing anything else at the time?---No, all I remember is getting tackled.

So he had – he was just being escorted by one guard; that’s your recollection?---Yes.5

And then some other guards came to assist once he was slammed or was it just the- - -?---I can’t – I can’t recall on that.

Yes. Do you think that you could be mistaken about which guard it was that10 knocked over in the rugby tackle?---Yeah, there could be a chance, I’m not

100 per cent sure on it, but that’s my memory.

Your memory now is that’s the guard that you’ve named, John Walton?---Yes.

15 Do you remember whether you told anybody else about that incident with the guard?---Yeah, I told my mum.

Told your mum?---Yep.

20 And do you remember when you told your mum?---I’m pretty sure it was, 7 November.

Sorry?---7 November.

25 7 November it is. Do you remember if there’s any – anything that happened as a result of that? Did – do you recall – do you know if made a complaint, for instance?---No.

You don’t know?---Yeah. I don’t know.30

In that incident, you’ve said that you don’t recall any other guards being there. I’m just going to ask you about two guards. Do you recall a guard called – his name was Mr ?---Yeah.

35 And do you recall a guard named Mr , ?---I don’t recall both of them, I just know them.

Do you know if Mr was there when the incident happened with?---No.

40COMMISSIONER WHITE: Is that you don’t recall or he wasn’t there?---Yeah, Idon’t – I don’t recall.

Thanks.45

MR McAVOY: Do you recall any of the words that was saying on that day?---No. All I remember is him just going off.


P-56 XNMR McAVOY

Do you think he – I’ll ask you. It might assist your memory. Do you recall him saying anything like, “ ”?---No.

At paragraph 112 of your statement, if it could be shown, please – Commissioner, I5 have some questions in relation to the incidents that are related here arising from a

request for cross-examination from one of the parties. I had intended to speak with the representative for that party, if they were here, prior to engaging in this line of examination.

10 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Do you want a few moments to do that?

MR McAVOY: If I could, please.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: In the interests of time, we’ll just stay here.15

MR McAVOY: Yes. It will only take a moment.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes.

20 MR McAVOY: Thank you, Commissioners. I’ve resolved that matter.


MR McAVOY: , you got on okay with some of the guards, did you? Were25 there a lot of guards that you thought were okay?---Yeah.

And you could talk with them?---Yeah.

Joke with them?---Yeah.30

There were others that you didn’t get on with so well?---Yeah.

You’ve talked a bit in your statement about being filmed in the shower. Did the guard that did – that took the video recording while you were in the shower talk

35 about putting that video on Snapchat?---No.

Did you - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I take it from the way you’ve described that activity40 that it was regarded as a bit of a joke?---Yeah.

Because I see where you say at the end of paragraph 113, “We jumped up and started performing for it.” So you went along with it in a joking kind of way?---Yeah.

45 MR McAVOY: Thank you, Commissioner.

Do you recall other guards, apart from that guard, filming detainees?---No.


P-57 XNMR McAVOY

Just the one guard? Okay. The Commissioner just asked you a question about treating it as a bit of fun at the time. You didn’t care about it then, but how do you – what do you think about it now?---I don’t really think – I don’t really think much of it.

5At paragraph 115 of your statement you talk about an incident involving

and ?---Yep.

I can tell you that there’s an incident report about those two detainees fighting in the10 rec room?---Yep.

Is that where you saw the fight?---No.

Between those two?---I think you’re mistaken for the toilet, yep.15

The – if the fight – do you know – are you aware of there being other fights between and ?---Yes. But with I’m pretty I got the name mixed up and

the person was .

20 ?--- .

And that was a fight, you think, in the toilets?---No, it was in the outside area.

Okay. And – but it was nevertheless still that was knocked?---Yeah.25

And you’ve used an expression hip and shoulder?---Yeah.

What does that mean? I come from a different - - -?---Shoulder barge kind of thing, but just - - -

30Is it a football term?---Pardon?

Is it a football term?---Yeah.

35 And he was knocked and hit his head?---Yeah.

? On the pole?---Yeah.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: What’s the pole that you’re talking about there?---It’s40 just a – it’s holding the roof up, like, for the - - -

I see, a support for the structure?---Yeah – yeah.

I’m with you. Thank you.45

MR McAVOY: And, as a result of hitting his head, you thought he might have been knocked out for a bit?---Yeah. Like a couple of seconds.


P-58 XNMR McAVOY

A little bit – you’re mistaken about, in your statement about who the fight was between?---Yeah.

Do you think you might be mistaken about whether he’d knocked his head?---No.5

had knocked his head?---I remember it clear as day.

Yes?---Yeah.

I just want to ask you some questions now about going to when he was in hospital ill. Are you alright to talk about that?---Yeah.

You were taken from Don Dale to go ?---Yeah.

15

You were – when you were taken, were you restrained on the - - -?---Yes.

- - - way on the hospital?---Yes.20

And when you went to in the room?---Yeah.

What happened then?---I was unrestrained.

25 What were the restraints that you had on?---I just had a belt, and they use the belt to hold on to you when you’re walking and then just handcuffs.

And the guards took off all the restraints to allow you to go - - -?---Yes.

30 - - - and . In your statement you talk about seeing a lot of case workers, ?---Yes.

Is there – do you remember seeing a case worker from ?---Yes, I do.

35Do you remember how many times he – whether he came to see you regularly?---Quite a lot, yeah.

Yeah. And that was helpful?---Yeah, it was good. Just had a chat to him.40

Do you remember whether the other counsellors came as much as ?---No.

So would you see some of them a few times or – and then they’d stop or- - -?---Yeah, it’s just random. People come and they say they’ll come and see you

45 next week, and then someone else will come and it’s the same thing over and over.

You’d see some people once only?---Yeah.


P-59 XNMR McAVOY

And then somebody else would come?---Yeah.

And you’d have to talk about the same thing again?---Yeah.

5 Did that help?---Not really.

I just want to ask you some questions about spit hoods. At paragraph 186 of your statement you talk about having a spit hood placed on your head. Do you remember that incident?---Yeah.

10Just have a look at it, and you had never had a spit hood on before?---No.

First time? What’s it like wearing a spit hood?---Scary. Just feels weird.

15 Can you breathe?---Yeah.

Is it – but is it a bit strange?---Yeah, it’s just real strange to have on your head.

And can you explain why it’s scary?---Because you don’t really – I didn’t really20 know what was happening at the time.

COMMISSIONER GOODA: Can you see through the spit hood?---Yes, kind of.

Kind of?---Bit blurry.25

Yes.

MR McAVOY: And so you – do you recall where you wore the spit hood?---Pardon?

30

.

Do you remember whether you had shackles on?---Yeah, I did.40


P-60 XNMR McAVOY

- - - on that occasion? Did you have to wear shackles?---Yeah.


P-61 RXNMS LEE

It’s not like that in ?---No.5

Do you recall being referred to some counsellors at , a medical service?---Is that ?

I think it might be?---Yeah. Yeah, I do.10

Do you remember when that was?---No.

No. Do you remember if it was in relation to – very close to the period when?---It might have been, yes. I cannot remember.

15Do you remember who arranged for that referral?---No.

One moment, Commissioner. Commissioners, I have no further questions of this witness.

20COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Mr McAvoy.

MR McAVOY: I have indicated to Ms Lee that if there were matters she wanted to take her witness to, due to the size and the detail of his statement, that I’d be happy

25 to accommodate that if there were particular matters.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Thank you. Ms Lee, do you have some – I’m sorry, I can’t easily see you.

30 MS LEE: I do have a couple of short matters.


35 <RE-EXAMINATION BY MS LEE [2.52 pm]

MS LEE: I’m just going to ask you a couple more things, mostly about some of the stuff that you’ve already said?---Yeah.

40Just so that the Commissioners can have a better idea about you and about the things that you saw when you were in Don Dale?---Yeah.

And one of the things that you talked about was saying that being at-risk was exactly45 like being in the BMU?---Yeah.

And you also talked about the cells in the BMU being dirty?---Yep.


P-62 RXNMS LEE

What can you tell us about the cells or the – sorry, the at-risk rooms?---They’re the same. They’re a bit dirty.

And now, do you know who was supposed to clean those at-risk rooms?---No.5

Do you know who was supposed to clean the BMU rooms?---No.

Now, you also said that sometimes when you’re at-risk that sometimes you’d get out for about an hour or sometimes 30 minutes?---Yep.

10Would sometimes you not go out?---I’m not sure on that. When I was there Iremember going out quite a lot.

Now, you also talked about when you got suspended, having a book?---Yep.15

And being able to read?---Yep.

You like reading?---Yeah.

20 And you had those books in your room or your cell beforehand?---Yep.

So it wasn’t that because you weren’t at school you got given books or anything like that?---No.

25 You shared a cell for a while with another fellow in the BMU?---Yeah.

You had a book in there when you were with him?---Yeah.

Do you know if he could read?---No. He never read. We just played cards or he just30 slept all day.

And sometimes – we’ve heard stuff about people mucking up, or mucking around when they were at the BMU. Is there any – is there any reason why you sometimes mucked up when you were at Don Dale?---The only thing we were doing there

35 really, like, it gets boring.

Were there ever any gardening programs or - - -?---No, you’ve got no programs in your high security, but there are a couple of programs to choose from when you’re low security.

40Now, you also talked a little bit about the restraints that were used on you. What was the worst restraint that you thought was used?---Probably the shackles.

Why?---Because they hurt every time I walked. Felt like I was breaking my legs.45

Now, , this is your chance to tell Commissioner Gooda and CommissionerWhite about what you thought about Don Dale?---Yep.


P-63

Is there any other area you want to talk about?---Not really.

If there was something you could change about Don Dale, what do you think would be a good thing to change?---Probably a lot. I’d get more help in there. You know,

5 more support for when they get out on the outside, yeah, that’s about it.

And when you’re in there and you say get more help, what kind of help?---Like counselling – like, psychs and stuff like that, have more activities in there for them to do. If there was more to do in there then there wouldn’t be any reason for them to

10 muck up.

Thank you, . Thank you, Commissioners.

MR McAVOY: I have nothing arising, Commissioners.15

COMMISSIONER GOODA: , on behalf of Commissioner White and myself, can I thank you for coming to give your evidence.

You’ve put a lot of time into yourstatement?---Yeah.

20And it’s things like that that will help Commissioner White and I, in this Royal Commission, hopefully to produce some change in the system that you’ve experienced. So can I thank you for coming and

?---Yeah. Thank you.25

MR McAVOY: And the witness can be released.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Thank you. You’re free to go now. You’re released from your summons. So perhaps you’d like to accompany your lawyer

30 outside. Thank you.


35COMMISSIONER WHITE: We’re now going to open court?

MR McAVOY: We are, Commissioner, and I understand Mr Dighton is taking the next group of witnesses. There is – there are a couple of procedural matters I would

40 like to attend to briefly, just a matter of tendering some material.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Would you like to – do we have to do that in open court or closed court.

45 MR McAVOY: No, I can do it now, Commissioner. Firstly, Commissioner, the – Itender the response to the tender bundle in respect of AS. That was the witness in- - -


P-64

COMMISSIONER WHITE: That’s the Northern Territory tender.

MR McAVOY: Northern Territory responsive tender bundle.

5 COMMISSIONER WHITE: Any exceptions or in total.

MR McAVOY: It’s been redacted and there are no exceptions. Any other tender, Mr McAvoy?

10EXHIBIT #140 NORTHERN TERRITORY RESPONSIVE TENDER BUNDLE IN RESPECT OF AS

15 MR McAVOY: Yes, Commissioner. There is a tender of the responsive tender bundle of BH. The whole of the responsive tender bundle is tendered except item 4 and you might recall there was some discussion about the photographs, and I can indicate, and I have indicated to my learned friend that in the event that the tender of those photographs is pressed, and it’s – and the photographs are able to be

20 provenance, then I don’t expect any objection.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Exhibit 141 – 141, I beg your pardon.

25 EXHIBIT #141 RESPONSIVE TENDER BUNDLE IN RESPECT OF BH

MR McAVOY: And I hope to be in a position to tender the responsive tender bundle with respect to this witness later this afternoon.

30COMMISSIONER WHITE: Right. Thank you. Thank you. So we’re now going to go into open court. Do we need to adjourn to do that? Yes. Thank you. We’ll adjourn until we’re told it’s time to start again. Thank you.

35ADJOURNED [2.59 pm]

END OF EXTRACT


P-65

Index of Witness Events

AU, SWORN P-2EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GOODWIN P-2

THE WITNESS WITHDREW P-13

, AFFIRMED P-15EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS McGEE P-15


, AFFIRMED P-30EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS McGEE P-30RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MORREAU P-41


, AFFIRMED P-46EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR McAVOY P-46RE-EXAMINATION BY MS LEE P-61


Index of Exhibits and MFIs

EXHIBIT #128 STATEMENT OF AU P-3

EXHIBIT #129 MATTERS FOR CROSS-EXAMINATION SOUGHT BY THE NORTHERN TERRITORY AND THE RESPONSIVE TENDER BUNDLE

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EXHIBIT #130 RESPONSIVE STATEMENT OF TREVOR HANSEN DATED 13/3/2017

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EXHIBIT #131 STATEMENT OF DATED25/11/2016

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EXHIBIT #132 STATEMENT OF DATED9/3/2017

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EXHIBIT #133 STATEMENT OF MARK CHRISTOPHER DATED3/2/2017

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EXHIBIT #134 STATEMENT OF VICTOR WILLIAMS DATED3/2/2017

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EXHIBIT #135 NORTHERN TERRITORY GOVERNMENT BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS EXCLUDING TABS 7A AND 9-17

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EXHIBIT #64.248 MEDICAL REQUEST FORM DATED 3/5/2015 P-24


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EXHIBIT #64.250 MEDICAL RECORDS P-25

EXHIBIT #64.267 MEDICAL RECORDS P-25

EXHIBIT #64.322 BED HISTORY P-26

EXHIBIT #136 DATED20/2/2017

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EXHIBIT #137 TRANSCRIPT OF HEARING IN YOUTH JUSTICE COURT DATED

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EXHIBIT #138 VISITS RECORD P-40

EXHIBIT #139 STATEMENT OF P-46

EXHIBIT #140 NORTHERN TERRITORY RESPONSIVE TENDER BUNDLE IN RESPECT OF AS

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EXHIBIT #141 RESPONSIVE TENDER BUNDLE IN RESPECT OF BH

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Documents

ROYAL COMMISSION 20170323X€¦ · Web viewAnd you’re sure that it was Yogi that put you in the back cells?---It was Yogi. ... COMMISSIONER WHITE: I used a word that lawyers are