ROBERTHUFFORALHISTORYINTERVIEWMARCH2014Q.Okay.Sowereallywanttoknowabouthowyoumanagedtogetinapositiontomakeart.How,whatyouhadprior,yourtrainingvery,verybrieflybecausewehaveabioandwehaveyourcompletec.v.current.A.Okay.Q.And,youknow,welikestoriesandanecdotesandgossipbecausewewanttobuildabiographyofanartcity.ThatisMiamiincaseyoudon'trecognizeit.Weknowquiteabitaboutyourbackground.Wehaveeverything,butinyourownwords,whataboutyourorigins,whatyousawanddidasaboythatmadeyouthinkthatyouwantedtobeanartist?A.Idon'tknowthatIknewIwantedtobeanartistasaboy.Asaneighteen,nineteenyearoldboy,yes,butasayoungerchild,no.IgrewupinMichiganuntilIwastwelve.ThenwemovedtoFlorida,theTampabayarea,anditwasn'tuntilaratherunsuccessfulrunathighschoolandkindofincentiveprogramtogetmetogotoajuniorcollegeatthetimethatIdiscoveredthatthatisreallywhatIwantedtodo,anditwasjustthroughtakingelectivesanddiscoveringthatthatwasImean,Ihadalwaysmadedrawingsandthingslikethat,butIjust

1

nevertookthemveryseriously.Q.Didanyoneelsetakethemseriously,thosedrawings?A.Notverymanypeoplesawthem.Imean,myfamily,someofthemsawthem.Idon'tthinktheytookitveryseriously,no.Sothespecificthingwasthewhattheelectivesthatyoutookinjuniorcollege?A.IhadtotakehumanitieselectiveslikeeveryonedoesandoneofthemIwasactuallypreengineeringatthetime,andoneoftheelectivesIchosetotakewasadrawingclassbecauseIlikedtodraw,andIhaddonesomemechanicaldrawingasamajorinhighschooltypeofthing.SoIfeltaninfinitywiththesurfaceandthepencil,whichissomethingthatcomesfromthebuildingbackgroundthatIcomefrom.SoItookthedrawingclassandIenjoyedit.Itwasfreehand.Itwasn'tusingtools.SoIenjoyedit,andIdecidedoneafternoonafterlookingataMonetpaintingthatIwantedtobeapainter.Q.WheredidyouseeaMonetpainting?A.AttheGulfCoastCenterforArtsin

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Belleair,Florida,anditwasaverysmallpiece.Itwasprobablymaybe,oh,twelvebyeighteen,eighteenbytwelve,somethinglikethat.Itwasjustamazing.IhadwalkedthroughthewholeexhibitionandIfoundthislittlejewel,andIhadtositdownandlookatitforawhile.Inafewdays,IdecidedthatiskindofwhatIwanttodo.SowhenIfinishedatthejuniorcollege,ItransferredtotheUniversityofSouthFlorida.There,IlearnedIwasnevergoingtobeapainter,soQ.Whydoyousaythat?A.BecauseIwastoldthatbymyprofessors.Q.Whichnonmentortoldyouthat?A.Well,itwasokaybecauseitbalanceditselfout.Ifoundahomeinthesculpturedepartment,andthatwasaroundtoolsthatIknew,andfromthereitjustkindofgraduallyIalwaysdidtwodimensionalthings.Ialwaysdidprintmakingbecauseitwasanextensionofthedrawing.Ididalotofdrawingtoo,butprintmakingwasinterestingtomebecauseoftheprocess,andIlikedtheprocess.SoIdidthosethingsandfinallydidanMFAinsculpture.Q.Whatwasyourseniorproject?

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A.Myseniorproject?Abodyofwork,basically.Theyweremygraduatethesisexhibitionwascomprisedofphotographyaswellassculptureswhichwerechromeplated,steel,Plexiglassandfoundpartsthatwerepainted.Theywereveryenvironmentallyorientedintermsofminiatureenvironmentsituations.Q.WasthereaparticularprofessorinTampathathadsomerealinfluenceonyou?A.Well,Ithinktheyalldid.Atthattime,itwasaveryyoungdepartmentandtherewasalotofinterchangebackandforthandalotofenthusiasm.Mysculptureprofessor,ErnieCox,wasprobablytheonethatIworkedwithclosestIwouldsay.Q.Soyoudecidedyouweregoingtobeanartistfulltime?A.Bythattime,Ihaddecidedthat.Thatiscorrect.Q.Didyoueverhaveajoboutsideart?A.HaveIeverhadajoboutsideart?Q.Yeah.A.Afulltimejob?Q.Yes.

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A.No,Iworkedsummers.WhenIwasattheuniversity,Iworkedsummers.Iworkedonesummerasawelder.Anothersummerasaconstructionpersoninhighsteelputtingtogetherbuildings.Q.Butthiswasallthisallcontributedtoyourcapabilitiesinyourtechnique?A.Ofcourse,yes.Theonlyonesthatdidn't,Ihadajobasarooferforawhile,veryshortwhile.IdecidedIdidn'tlikethat.Soitbecameaprocessofeliminationofcreativecareers,let'ssay.AndIworkedasanelectricianforalittlewhile.Ididn'tlikethat.Q.Butyoupickedupskillsdoingallthesethings?A.ButIdidpickupskills,yeah,andeveryoneofthoseexperienceseithertaughtmewhatIdidn'twanttodoorgavemesomethingthatIcouldtakebacktomywork.Q.Fabulous.SoyouareinTampa.A.IaminTampa.Q.NowyouareinMiami.Howdidthattransfercome?A.Thattransfercameabout,theyearIgraduatedfromUniversityofSouthFloridawasin1968,

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andthereweretwosculpturejobsinthecountry.OneofthemwasinPaducah,Kentuckyor,excuseme,itwasactuallyinMurray,Kentucky,whichisjustoutsideofPaducah,andtheotheronewasinMiami.IwenttoKentuckyandinterviewedforthatpositionandwasofferedthatposition,buttheworkIwasreallyinterestedindoingatthattimewasthechromeplatedmetalandPlexiglassandeverything,andtheclosesttowntogetmaterialsandhavethingsdonewasSt.Louis,whichisfivehoursaway.Thatjustdidn'tworkinmymind.SoIcamebackandIthoughtitthroughanddecidedjusttoputallmyenergyintocomingtoMiami.ItturnedoutthatMarilynPappas,whowasaprofessoratMiamiDadeJuniorCollegeatthattime,herexhusbandwoundupbeingmythesisadvisorformyMFA,andbetweenhimandI,wemanagedtogetmeQ.Ajob.A.ajob.Q.Soyougothere?A.SoIcametoMiamiforthejob.Q.Yougothere?A.Uhhuh.

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Q.Whatdidyoufindintermsofanartcommunity?A.Verylittle,butmorethanTampa.IguessinawayitwasmorethanTampa.TheArtCenter,whichwasonKendallDrive.ThiswasthefirstyearthattheKendallcampusofMiamiDadehadanartdepartmentoncampus.Ithadhadclassesforaboutthreeyearsbeforethatandtheywereinalldifferentplaces.AndTheArtCenteronKendallwasoneoftheplacesforstudios.TheyusedatheateratSunilandtoteachhumanitiesclassesin.Sotheywerespreadoutallovertheplace.Sothiswasthefirstunificationofthatdepartment.Itwasahiringtime.TheyhiredmyselfandtheyhiredYvonneTuckerforceramicsandJudyRaywashiredasartintheelementaryschoolpersontoteachelementaryeducationinthevisualarts,butintermsofartistactivitiesandexhibitions,theonlythingsaroundwereTheArtCenterheldanannualmembershow.TheLoweshowedlocalartistsonceortwice.Thenthedirectorshipchangedandtheymadeaveryfirmcommitmentnottodothat.TheFortLauderdalemuseum,whichIdon'trememberwhatitwascalledbackthen,butGeorgeBolgehadanannualexhibitioncalledTheHortt.

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Q.TheHortt.A.AndthentheSocietyoftheFourArtsinWestPalmBeach,thosewerethemajorareasforexhibition.Andthenlater,probablythiswas1968or1969andprobablyintheearlySeventies,theMiamiDadePublicLibrarystartedshowingalotofworksaswell.Q.Sowhodidyoumeetthathelpedyougetstartedhereasanartist?A.AgentlemanbythenameofJerrySchwartzwhowastheprintmakeratMiamiDadehad,madeconnectionswithanothergentlemanbythenameofRobertSindelirwhohadagalleryinCoralGables.Itturnedoutthattheperson,oneofthethingsIdidwhenIwasattheUniversityofSouthFloridaasastudentwasIworkedinthegallery.Imean,thatwasaverygoodjobformebecauseitexposedmetoalotofdifferentideasanditexposedmetoalotofdifferentartistsandthings.ThepersonwhowasrunningitatthattimewasJamesCampwholaterwenttoNewYorkandopenedagallerythere.ButJamessaid,beforeIleft,hesaid,Bob,hesaid,IthinkyoushouldlookupRobertSindelirbecauseheistheonlypersoninMiamithathasanything

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goingintermsofcredibilityinthevisualarts.So,ImetRobertandgavehimsomeslidesandsomedrawingstolookat,andaboutayearandahalflaterdecidedthathewasn'tgoingtodoanythingwiththemandwentbacktogetthem,andhegavemeaonepersonshow.Andwehavebeenfriendsanddealeronandoffeversince.Q.Sowhatyearwasthat?A.Thatwouldhavebeen1971,Ibelieve.Q.'71?A.Uhhuh.Q.Didyousellanyofthatwork?A.Yes.Isoldquiteabitofitactually,whichwasencouraging.Q.Didyoumeetcollectorsatthattime?A.Idid.Imetafewcollectors.Don'taskwhotheywere.JayMartinVeguehappenedtobeoneofthemandsomebodywewerejusttalkingabouttheotherday.Q.Howaboutfellowartists?Didyouhaveopportunitytomeetthem?A.Imetalotoffellowartists,butIthinkmostoftheartiststhatIdealtwithonadaytodaybasiswereinvolvedwithMiamiDadeCollegeandtheUniversityofMiami.Thatwasournucleus.The

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collegesQ.Thatiswheremostoftheartistswere.Theywereteaching.A.Exactly,exactly.Q.Whataboutteaching?Imean,thatistwojobs.Howdidyoumanage?Howdoyoumanage?Howdidyoumanage?A.Idid.IlearnedfairlyearlyonthatIhadtomakeacommitmenttoworkingsporadically.Somepeoplecan'tdothis.Ihadalotoffriendswhojustcouldnotevenbegintothinkaboutthis,butbasicallyI'mworkingallthetime.It'sjustthatIit'slikedoubletasking.Youknow,it'slikeI'mdoingthisthing,butmymindisoverhereorviceversa.SowhenIwouldbeatthestudio,IwouldbeworkingonaspecificthingandthenIwouldgo,say,tothecollege,andteachaclass,andthengobacktothestudio.Eveninteachingtheclass,oftenmyassignments,becauseitwasstudio,myassignmentsreflectedwhatwashappeninginthestudio.SothatifIhadaproblem,theywouldsolveitforme.Imean,thatkindofrelationshipbegantodevelop.Q.Butyounevercouldhavekeptthisupif

10

youweren'tcurrentwitheverythingandcurrentwithyourstudents?A.Well,no.ImeanQ.Imean,youcouldn'thavebeendoingImpressionisttypepaintingsandteaching.A.Thatispartofthecommitment.Imean,youmakeacommitment,andthecommitmentistomakingtheartandmakingitthebestwayyoupossiblycanandusing.Imean,Iknowalotofverygoodartistswhohavestoppedmakingartandstoppedmakingartveryyoungintheircareersbecauseofsurvival.Imean,oursocietyisnotasocietythatreallyvaluesartas,say,theEuropeansocietiesdoorhaveinthepast.SoyouhavetoandthereisapersoninSt.PetersburgthatcomestomindwhosenameIdon'trecallrightnow,buthebecameahousepainter,andthatisallhehasdone.Hehasn'tmadeanotherpaintingsincehelefttheuniversity.Q.AndwealsoknowofpeoplewhotaughtwhonevercouldA.Itworksbothways,yes.Q.havetheirowncareerofanysort.A.Ofcourse,butIamverystubborn.

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Q.Well,youarealsoverystrong.A.Well,butstubbornworksforme.Q.Butaside,asidefromteachingA.Uhhuh.Q.fulltimeandmakingartfulltimeandhavinggalleryshows,youalsotookonthingslikebeingthegalleristattheuniversity,beingtheheadofthedepartment.A.TheheadofthedepartmentthingwasIdidthatforalongtime,anditwasanaccidentalthingmorethananythingelse.Imean,IfoundthatlookingatthecandidatesthatIknewwouldapplyforthejob,Icouldn'tworkwithhalfofthem.Soinretrospect,whatIdidwasIkindofjumpedonthesacrificialboardbecausethereweresomecasesthatIknewthatIwouldhavetoleave,andIjustdidn'tIwasn'treadytodohatatthetime.Soitwashard.Thefirstthreeorfouryearsofdoingthat,IhadpeopleassignedIhadassignedclassestopeople,andIhadtwopeopleteachingthesameclass.Imean,allkindofscrewythingswouldhappen,andInevercouldfigureouthowthathappened,butitworkedout,andthenafterawhileitgottothe

12

pointwhereIhadmorefreetimeasdepartmentchairthanIdidasateachingfacultymember.Q.Ofcourse,yourhoursweredown.A.Well,myhoursweremoreflexible.Q.Yeah.A.AndwhenIfinallyleft,Iwasn'tteachingatall,butthenthatisoneofthereasonsIleft,buttheotherreasonisIhadbeendoingitfor36years.Ifiguredthatwastime.Q.Sowhatdoyouthinkyouparticularlybroughttothecollege?Whatisyourlegacythere?A.Mylegacyatthecollege?Q.Yeah.A.Iwasaverygoodirritant.Q.Thatisimportantincollege.A.Itis.Itis.Well,IthinkoneofthethingsisprobablyIhadandhaveafairlygoodunderstandingofhowthingsaremadeandhowprocessesandthatrangesfromprintmakingtophotography,toceramics,tosculpture,topainting.So,technically,Ihavethatinformation.Iwastheleadpersoninthedepartmentforthedevelopmentofthenewfineartscenterthatistherenowintermsof

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gettingpeopletogetherandgettingtheirdesirestogetherandthenmakingsurethatthosethingswouldworkbecausesometimesyougetideasthatyouknowarenotgoingtofly.Sowehadtodosomesortingoutandthingslikethat.Thattookagreatdealoftime.Q.Whataboutthecollection,thecollege?Thesouthcampushasacollection.A.Thesouthcampushasaveryniceandlargecollection,butIthinkit'sbeingmergedwithallthecampusesnow.Imean,I'msureofit.Q.Howdidyougoaboutcollectingwhileyouareanartistandteacher?A.Well,Ididn'tdothecollecting.WhatIdidwasIsetupacommittee,andIhadagalleryperson.Eventually,agallerydirector.Atfirst,itstartedoutasapositionasareleasetimefromafacultyslot,andthenwegraduallymoveditintoadirectorship.Andtheywouldmakerecommendationstoacommittee,andacommitteewouldmakerecommendationsback,andthenIwouldinitiatethepaperwork.SoIbecamethepaperpusherperson.Q.Wheredidthefundscomefrom?A.Thecollege.Wemanagedtoabscondwithsomefundsandthatisenoughsaidaboutthat.

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Q.Yeah.A.Butwehadabudget.Weweretheonlycampustohaveabudgetactually.Q.AndyouwerethefirstcampustohaveacollectionbecauseIbelieveBobstartedthat?A.BobSindelirstartedthatprogram,yes,andhewouldbuyallkindsofthings,butnorthcampusfollowedsoonafterwards.Theimpetusbehindthatwholethingwasthefactthatwewereteachinghumanitiesclassesandartappreciationclassestononmajorsusingslides,anditwasludicrousbecausetheyhadnoideaoftexture.Theyhadnoideaofscale.Theyhadnoideaofintimacy,nothingtodowiththeactualwork,justkindofaprojectedimageorabookplateorsomethinglikethat.Sothatishowwesolditaspart,and,actually,thefundinginitiallyprobablycamefromahumanitiesgrant.Imean,Idon'trecallexactlywhereitcamefrom,butwedidwriteanumberofhumanitiesgrantstoexpandthebasiceducationprogram.Q.SooncebeforewhenIwastalkingtoyouyearsago,IreferencedtheHenryJamessuggestionfornovelists,thatshouldbesomeoneonwhomnothingis

15

lost,andIseethatyouareobservant,engaged.Doyoumakenoteofhowyourownworkshiftsandchangesandmovesonorgoesbackwardsorhasbadmomentsorgreatmoments?Doyoureckonanyofthat?A.Ireckonit,butIreckonitmanyyearslater.Imean,ItrynottomakethatpartoftheprocessbecauseIfindittobeinhibiting.Q.Sowhatmovesyouonfromonemediumtoanother,fromoneconcepttoanother?A.Alittlespotofcolor,aform.Thesepiecesbehindme.Layeringofleavesinthefall.Walkingthroughthewoods.Justlittlesuggestions,littlehints.ThenItakethemandIusedtotakeIstilldoactually.Itakephotographsofstuff,butIfindthatIdon'ttakephotographsofstuffIneverlookatthemagainusually,andIthinkit'sjustpartofthatprocessformeisthatIneedtoknowthatthereisarecordofmylookingatthat,butQ.Theyarenotdirectreferences?A.Theyhavenodirectconnectiontothem.Thetrusslelikeformsbehindme,theycomefromtrussles,buttheyalsocomefromstructuralroofsystemsandalltypesofthings.Ineverwantedthemtobeaduplicationof

16

thosethings,butIwantedthemtobeareactiontoorafondnessoforsomethingofthatnature.Q.Soyouareobservingeverything?A.Iamalways.Q.Always.A.Always.Q.YouarethatHenryJamesidea.Nowyouhavetwostudios.A.NowIhavetwostudios.Q.Howdoyoumanageit?A.Well,theshirtthatIhaveonisnottheoneIwanted.TheoneIwantedisintheotherstudio.HowdoImanageit?Istartedouttryingtododifferentworkineachplace.Q.Doesthatwork?A.No,no,ofcoursenot,butwhathappenedtheredefinitelyinfluenceswhathappenshere,andIfindthatit'sharderworkingtherebecauseit'smoreprimitive.Hereisprettylush.Imean,plush.Q.Youaretalkingaboutthematerialsyouhave

17

A.Wearetalkingaboutaccessibilityofmaterials.Wearetalkingaboutfacility.Q.Thecomfortofthestudio?A.Right,yeah,everything.Soupthere,it'skindoflikeabarnandnotarefinedbarnsituation.Soyouarealwaysit'scoldwhenit'scold.It'shotwhenit'shot,and,youknow,it'sthatkindofthing,butIfoundanumberofyearsago,IwasdoingaresidencyatLakesideStudiosinMichigan,southernMichiganonLakeMichigan.Ifoundthatbyleavinghereandgoinguptheretodotheresidency,thatIwaslookingfordifferentthings,lookingatdifferentthings,lookingatthingsdifferently,andcomingfromthegeneralregionofLakeside,whichisKalamazoo,whichis30milesfromthereroughly,Isetoutinitiallytotrytotrackthingsthatinfluencedmythinking,youknow,becauseIknowtherewerethingslikeinthesnowandinthewintermonthswhenyouarenotallowedtogooutwhenyouareakidandstufflikethat,thatinfluencedwhatIdo.Imean,likelittleintimateplaces.Likeinthesumacbushesandthingslikethat.ThosekindsofthingsIstillrecallverywell.

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SoIstartedlookingaroundandtryingtomakeworkthatwasdifferent.Ofcourse,whenIgotbackhome,itwasn'tdifferent,butIdon'trealizethatwhenI'mdoingit.It'saninterestingQ.ButwhenyoutravelfromheretoVirginiaA.Uhhuh.Q.Thereisabuzz.A.Okay.Q.Wherewerewe?A.Yeah,right.Thatisyourtake.Q.Ishouldhavetakensomefewnotes.Okay.Isitmyobservationonlyorinthelastcoupleofyears,haveyoukindofscaleddownyourwork?I'msayingthat,andthenlookingatalargepaintingwhichIknowisfairlycurrent,buttheconceptsseemtobescaleddown.Isthatage,experience,opportunity?A.It'sactuallystorage.Q.Orstorage,whichisanimportantthing,too,yeah.A.Yes,itis.Ihavescaledbackalittlebitintermsofimages,butIthinkthatlikethething

19

weweretalkingaboutearlieraboutlookingbackandreminiscingorseeingthingsisifIweretostopandlookbackatsomethingsthatIhaddoneearlierthattherewasadefiniteconnection.SoIdon'tseeitthatway.IreducedscalequiteabitbecauseIstartedworkingindrawingbooks,whichIhaveneverdonebefore.Ididn'tdothat.Idon'tdoforme,Idon'tbelieveindoingdrawingsorsmallpaintingsoranythingasmaquettesforlargerthings.Ireallywanteachpiecetobecomeitsown.Q.Eveninamajorpiecethatwillbeamonumentalpiece?A.InamonumentalpiecethatisinamaterialthatIamnotusuallyinvolvedwith,suchasceramictileorglassoranyofthosethings,yes,Iwoulddothat,buttheyarenotprecious.TheyaremorelikeplansforabuildingratherthanthepreciousnessthatadrawingQ.It'snotasmallworkofarttobecomeabiggerA.No.Asamatteroffact,theyusuallygetdestroyedbecauseIdon'tQ.Youdon'tthinkthatway?A.Idon'tthinkthatway,right,Idon't.

20

Andalotofpeopledo.Alotofpeoplewoulddolike,say,forexample,thispiecebackhere,theymightdo30or40sketches,theywouldcallthem,beforetheyactuallyproducethepiece.Ijustworkdirectly.Q.Sowhereistheconcept?Here?A.It'shere.It'salwayshere.Q.It'salwaysthere?A.Andthere.Q.Butwhataboutwhenyouhavetomeasuresomething?Youaremakingthatandyouhavetomeasureapieceofwood.A.Yeah.Q.Youdothatwithoutanyfiguringout?A.Iusearuler.Q.HowdoyouknowthenextpieceisgoingtoyouknowwhatIamsaying?Iseeapreliminarysketchasbeing,youknow,afirststep,asecondstep,athirdstep,youknow.A.No,no.Iusuallyhavetheseveryvividdreams,andinthosedreamsIambuildingsomethingandsometimeswhenIwakeupIgoandbuildit,sometimesIdon't,andsometimesIgobuilditandwishIhadn't.Q.Andyougorighttothematerial?

21

A.Yeah,becausethatiswheretheentiretyforthepieceisformeinthematerial.Solikesteelsteelandbronzeandmetalstomearefluid,whichalotofpeoplethinkofthemasveryrigidandresilientandcold.Tome,theyareveryfluid.Theyareverymuchlikewater.Paintisfluid.Canvasisveryfluid,Imean,untilyoumakeitrigid,ofcourse.Sothesethingsalljustflow.Q.Ithinkit'sveryA.Afluiddrive.Q.Ithinkit'sveryunusualtoImean,thereareplentyofpainterswhojustgorighttoitandpaint.A.AndIalsofind,andIdon'tdothis.Icantellyouwhy,but,theoretically,IshoulddestroytheonesafteracertainperiodoftimethatIdon'tlike,butIhaveneverdonethat.IdiditforalittlewhileandGriffithSmith,whousedtowritefortheMiamiHerald,gotallovermeaboutitoneafternoon.Shesaid,youshouldn'tdothat,youshouldn'tdothatbecausesomedaysomebodyisgoingtowanttolookandseethisprogression.Sotheprogressionformeisnotinsketchestoafinalproduct.It'sinfinalproduct,

22

finalproduct,finalproduct,andtheremaybeaculminationofalineofthinkingthatisthatwholeline,notaspecificpiece.Q.Well,I'mthinking,asyousaythat,I'mthinkingofthegridthatkeepspoppingupfromthe'0'sasfarasIknowtothepresentday.A.Yeah,yeah.Thereissomethingveryintriguingaboutthegridstome.Q.Canyoutelluswhatthatis?A.Theyarespatial.Theycandefineaspacewithoutactuallyoccupyingit,andIlikethat.Theyarestructural,andIthinkstructurally.Theyarekindofthereisamysteryinwearingamask.Youknow,whenpeoplewearmaskslikecarnivalandplaceslikethat,andthatsenseofmystery,thatsenseoftheunknownisbehindthatscreen.Imean,youareallowedlimitedvision.Thegridletsyouthrough,butitkeepsyouback.It'sthatkindoffrustration.Q.Doyouseeitasafence?A.DoIseeitasafence?Q.Idon'tmeananactualfencebut,youknow,notawindow.A.No.Iseeitasascreen.

23

Q.Asascreen.Okay.A.Yeah,yeah.Idoseeitoftenasascreen,butsometimesifIcatchmyselfdoingthat,Isay,no,it'snotascreen.Idosomethingelsewithit.LikeItearitopenorsomethingbecauseIdon'twantittobeascreennecessarilyinthatinstance.Sothosethingschange.Theymovebackandforth,buttogobacktothethingaboutworkrelatingtoeachotherovertime,inourplaceinVirginia,Icansitinthelivingroomandseeworkfromseveralyears.Imean,likefromtheSixties'stotheSeventies,totheEighties,maybetheNineties,andtonowjustsittinginonechairlookingdownintothevariousroomsandIcantellthesamepersondidthem.Q.Uhhuh.Well,Ithinkanyonecantell.A.Sothattomethattomeisthelink.Q.Thatisyoursignature.Thatisyoursignature,yes.A.Itdoesn'tmatterwhetherit'sagridorifit'safieldofcolororwhatever.Thewaytheyareeitherputonorthejuxtapositionofthecolorsortheshapeortheformsorsomethingtellsmethatthatwasdonebythatsameperson.Q.Westartedtalkingaboutcolor.Solet's

24

talkaboutcolor.Ithinkofyousittinginthisroom,IseeapalletIdon'trecognizeasaHuffpalette.IthinkoftheRussianinspiredred,thegold.A.Uhhuh.Q.Youknow,thepureflatcolorthattheblackrepresents,buttheothercolorsIseedifferent.Now,doyouseeachangeinyourpallet?A.Inthepalette?Yeah.IthinkthethingIwasdescribingaboutgoingtoLakesideandlookingforsomething,andyoumentionedRussia,andRussiawasaninterestingtimebecausePerestroikawasjuststarting,andtherewasalotofchangesthatthepeople,andactuallyitwastheSovietUnionatthetime,wereanticipatingandsomehappyabout,somenotsohappyabout,thattypeofthing.Sothecolors,thecolorskindofevolvedfromthat,andIcamebackandthegoldleafinsomeofthoseimagesoriginallywereappliedtoadeepblue,whichisverymuchliketheblackthatyouarelookingatnow,whichisactuallyblackboardpaint,whichrefersbacktotheteachingassignments.Youknow,drawingontheblackboard.AndthebluewascloseenoughtoitthatwhenIstarteddrawingontopofit,Icould

25

getthedepthandtheimagesIwanted.OneafternoonIwastalkingwithamutualfriendofours,MargaritaCano,andshesaid,oh,no,inordertodogold,youhavetohaveredunderneathittomakeitcomeup.Ineverthoughtofthat.SoIstartedusingredandIusedalotofred.Q.Well,thegoldleafusedtobeappliedoverred.A.Yeah,Iknowthat.Traditionally,thatisthewayit'sdone.Q.OnthedomesofRussia,thatishowtheywereapplied.A.Yeah,andtheyweredoingthatwhenwewerethere.Soinonesense,thecolorisarbitrary.Thesepiecescomeoutofthewoods.Q.Uhhuh.A.SotheyaremoreandI'malsoreallyintriguedwithseasonalchangesbecausewedon'thavenoticeableImean,Inoticeit,butalotofpeopledon'tnoticeseasonalchangesinSouthFlorida.SoIambackinaregionthatisclosertowhereIwasoriginallyfrom,andIseethoseseasonalchangesnow.Iseespring.Onedaytheleaves,the

26

treeswillbejustthesesticks.Thenextdaytheywillgreen.It'sjustlikemagic.Inthefall,onedaytheyaregreen,andthenextdaytheyareyellowandorangeandthensticks.Sothoseevolutions,thosechangeshavehadalottodowiththedevelopmentofthisnewwork.Q.Whatabouttravelingeneral?Imean,Iknowyouhavehadresidencies.A.Uhhuh.Q.YouwereatKohlerweren'tyou?A.No.IwasgoingtogotoKohler.Ididn'tgo.Q.Youdidn'tgo?A.No.Thosethingshappensometimes.Itwasn'trightatthetime.Q.Howmuchceramicshaveyoudone?A.Personally?Q.Uhuh.A.IdidalittleceramicswhenIwasanundergraduatestudent,andIdidawholebunchofceramictilestenyearsago,andthatisall.Q.Let'stalkalittleaboutthatbecausethatwasagreatmomentinMiamipublicarthistorythatisno

27

longerwithusthatmuralattheairport.A.Right.Well,Imean,whatcanIsay?It'sarchitecture,ImeanthepublicartprogramshifteditsemphasisatonepointtoandthisisnotjustMiamiDadeCounty.Thisisoverall.Q.Everywhere,yeah.A.Toasitespecificsystemorsystemofthought,ifyouwill,andintegrationtothearchitecture,whichisstillverymuchpartofit.Q.It'salmost90percent.A.Sowiththatinmind,andwiththecommodificationofbotharchitectureandart,younoticethatarchitecture'slongevityislimited,andanythingthatisanintegralpartofitisgoingtobelimitedaswell.Sowhentheymadechangesattheairport,itwastimeforthatpiecetocomedown.Itwasdesignedforaveryspecificspace,andtheyhehawedaroundaboutkeepingsomeofitinplaceanditwasn'tright.Itjustinvolvedeitherthewholethingornotatall,andsoit'snotatall.Q.Didtheyofferyouanalternativespace?A.Itstartedoutthatway,butthathasgonethewayof

28

Q.Thatdidn'thappen?A.Well,itdidn'thappen.Itdidn'thappenforalotofreasons.Therewasalotofchangeinpersonnelandlostfilesand,youknow,justandeverytimesomebodyelsetakesoveraprogram,theywanttoleavetheirstamp.Soitjustitwasn'tright.IdidmanagetogotoMunichandworkedinaglassfactoryforaweekjusttoseewhatwaspossiblebecauseofanewsitethatwehaddiscussed,butthatkindofdisappearedintheprocess.SoQ.Toobad.Itwasabeautifulpiece.Doyouhaveitdocumentedsomewhere?A.Thereisfilm,yes.Q.Thereisfilm.Very,verygood.Okay.Howdoyouthinkwearedoingasanartcommunitytoday?A.IthinkQ.Imean,youhavealongview,soA.Ithinkwearedoingalotbetterthanwewerebefore,butIthinkitstillhasalongwaystogo,andthebiggestproblemthatIseeisthesameproblemthathasalwaysbeen.ThereweretwoproblemswhenIgothere.

29

Oneofthemwasfinancialsupportforartists,whichImanagedtofindaspot.Q.YoumeangrantsupportoryoumeanA.Imeanliving,everydaytodayliving.Thatiswhereartistsgethitthehardest.Imean,ifyouhavetotakeajobatMcDonald'sandyoucomehomefromMcDonald'safterahourshift,youarenotgoingtogointoapaintingstudio.Imean,mostpeoplearen't.Youaregoingtogotothebarandhaveacoupleofdrinksandgotosleeporyouaregoingtogoouttodinneroryouaregoingtodowhateveryouwanttodo,butyoujustdon'thavetheenergytoputintoyourworkthatyouwouldhaveifyouhadsomekindofotherkindofsupportsuchascollectorsbuyingworkandthingsofthatnature.Sowedon'thavethat.Iamnotevensurethatwehavethatasasocietyactually.ButIknowQ.YoumeanAmerica,notjustMiami?A.Yeah,yeah,right.Sothatisonething.Theotherthingisspace.Now,theymadealotoftherehavebeenalotofimprovementsinspacebecausewhenIfirstgothere,youcouldn'trentaspaceforastudio.Youcouldn'tafforditforonething.SoIwoundupworkingeverywhere.Youknow,IworkedinbedroomsforyearsuntilImanagedto

30

getenoughmoneytogethertobuildthisplace,but,otherwisesothoseweretwostumblingblocksforartistsinthiscommunity,andtheyarestillthere.Theyarestillthere.Theymadesomeheadwaywiththespaceissuewiththeselittleartcentersandfoundationsandthingsofthatnature,butthefinancialsupportisnotthere,andtheyarestillhavingtogoImean,theyarestillhavingtofindalternativemeansofsupportthatarenotartrelated.Imean,thatisthekeyandthatishowQ.Butisn'tthatthehistoryofartistseverywherealways?A.Probably.Q.Maybeeventhecaveguys?A.Probably,butIliketothinkthattheMedici,duringtheMediciperiodQ.Thenyouhadthatkindofpatronage,butyouhadpatronageofanartistandhisstudioassistants.Itwasn'twidespread.Youarespeakingasifyouwouldlikesomethingwidespread.A.Well,no,I'mspeakingastothehurdlesIthinkmore.Q.Yeah,yeah,Iunderstand.A.WhatIwouldlike,Imean,itwouldbe

31

wonderfulinaperfectworld,but,youknow.Q.Ifyouwerekingofart,thatiswhatyouwoulddo,yes.Thatwouldmakeitpossible,yeah.A.Iknowbetter.Q.Sothatisthesame,butwhataboutthephilanthropy,whichisquestionablehere,thephilanthropyforthevisualartshere?A.Well,Ithinkthatthephilanthropyforvisualartshereislikeitiseverywhereelse.It'sstarmentality.I'llgiveyouthisifyoumakemeastarormakemelookgoodorthattypeofthing.Soit'sanegocentricbasedbenevolence,Iguess.ButI'mnotsurethatisnotaculturalthing,youknow.Q.WhataboutMiami'sindividualitywithalltheseprivatemuseums?Imean,thatisphilanthropy,butitseemstobeinthebackyardofyourownhouse.A.Well,thatisit.Imean,thatisthatstarmentality,youknow.I'mimportantbecauseIhavethismuseumandIhavethiscollection.Q.Butdidweeverseeanyofthiscoming?Imean,youandIhavebeenherealongtime.A.No,no,notreally.

32

Q.Howdiditdevelop?A.Idon'tknowsee,bybeinghere,oneofthethingsthatisinterestingaboutbeinginMiamitomeisthatyouaresoisolated.Youliveinanislandliterally.YouhavetheoceanononesideandyouhavetheEvergladesontheotherside.TheonlywayinandoutisI95reallyintermsofisolation.SofromPalmBeachtoHomestead,youliveonanisland.Sothatkindofisolationismcanbegoodanditcanbebad.Forme,it'sgreatbecauseIcancomehereandIthinkGustavoMatamorossaidnottoolongagothathecandoanythinghewantedtohereanditwouldn'tbedetrimentaltohiscareer.It'ssomethingofthatnature.Q.Sothereisakindoffreedomthatthatgenerated.A.Becauseit'sakindoffreedomthatyoucangrowinifyouaresoinclined.Thereisalsoafreedomyoucanrotinifyouarenot.ButIhavenowayofmakingacomparisonofwhathappensinwell,Chicagoisnotagoodexample.Q.No,Chicago,isnotagoodexample.A.Paducah.Paducah,KentuckyisallorQ.ButwearenotinPaducah.Wearemore

33

closelylikeHouston.Wewereincorporatedthesameyear,96,butHoustonisthekindofartcenterthatreallyhasfiveorsixorsevenpublicinstitutionswithgreatartinit.Wedon't.A.Well,whenIfirstcamehere,Iwaswelcomedtothefunandsuncapitaloftheworld,andIdon'tknowthatit'smovedmuchpastthatmentality.Imean,peoplecomeheretogotoSouthBeach.Theycomeheretogetoncruiseships.Theycomeheretoit'sfuninthesun.Yougofishing.Q.Buttouristsbuyart,youknow.A.Notseriously.Notseriously.Idon'tthinkso.Imean,ifapersoncomestoMiamitobuyart,andtheyareusuallyluredherebyeitheranartistoragalleristoracollectionsadvisororsomebodylikethat,butIseldomwouldthinkthatapersonwouldcometoMiamiandbuyartonholiday.Q.Whataboutthegalleries?Imean,youhaveseenahugechangeinthegalleries.YougothereandtherewasBobSindelirTherewasprobablyDorothyBlautoo.A.Dorothywashere,yes,andIthinkGloria[Luria]wasinthebackground.

34

Q.No,later.Gloriastartedlater.Shestartedinherhusband'sbusiness.A.Oh,okay.Yeah,thereweren'tanygalleries,notreally.Imean,therewereframeshops,whichiskindofacleardistinctionbetweengalleriesandBobSindelirwasoneintheGables,andthenDorothyBlauonKaneConcourse,butDorothyonlydealtwithbluechipartistsfromNewYork.Soforlocalartists,therewasn'tmuch.LikeIsaidbefore,youhadafewexhibitionopportunitieseveryyear,andthatwasit.Otherwise,youwereonyourown,butIalwayskindofenjoyedbeingonmyown.Likeyoucandothingsthatyouwouldn'tnormallydo.Q.Butyouhadthisotherreallygoodjobasateacher.A.Well,itwasgood,yes.Q.Yes.Imean,thatreallysupportedyouinawayandgaveyouakindoffreedomotherartistsmaybewouldn'thavehadA.Thatistrue.Q.atthesametime.A.Thatistrue,andIguessthatiswhatwassoimportant,butIrecognizedthatveryearly,andIdon'tknowifoneofmysculpture,graduatesculpture

35

professors,andhewaspartofmyundergraduateworkaswell,ErnieCox,oncesaidtome,hesaid,Ican'tteachyoutobeanartist,butIcanteachyoutobeawelder,andIstoppedandIsaid,oh,okay,butIknewwhathemeantyou,youknow.AndasIrealizedthatitwasimportanttobeifyouaregoingtobeanartistatthattime,thatyoubeconnectedsomehowwiththeartworldallthetime,andthatwasbasicallywhatQ.SoyouwerealwaysA.SowhenIgotupinthemorningandwenttowork,Iwasthinkingart.WhenIwenttothestudio,Iwasthinkingart.WhenIwasdoinganythingelse,Iwasjustthinkingabouttheart.Q.Andyougoanyplace,yougotoamuseum,yougotogalleries.A.Yeah.Forawhile,Ididn'tatall.Ididn'twantto,andthatiskindofaninterestingquirkbecauseIdidn'twantthefeelingthatIwasgoingthereforideas.IwantedmorethefeelingthatIwasgoing,let'ssay,totheEvergladesforanideaor,youknow,thatkindofthing.Q.Didn'tyougetthatasateacher?Thatthe

36

studentswere,youknow,theywantedtoknowwhatotherpeopledid.Theywereafraidtheymightmeetthemselvescomingandgoing?A.Everyonceinawhile,thesmatterones,butyouhavetorememberthatgoingbacktothecollectionanddevelopingthecollectionandeverythingatthecollegeisthattheonlyartthatmystudentsatKendallcampus,whichwassouthcampusatthetime,sawwasattheBarefootMailmanatDadeland.Itwasthatbad.Q.ButyoutookyourclassestotheLowe,didn'tyou?A.No,Ididn't.Itookmyclassestothezoo.Q.Aah.A.Becauseofthatveryreason.Imean,IwouldsuggestthattheygototheLowe,butIneverpushedthem.Iwantedmorecontrolovertheirlittleminds,Ithink.Q.Whataboutthosestudents?Youmusthavehadsomeverytalentedstudents.A.Ihavehadsomeverytalentedstudentsovertheyears,yeah.Q.Whatdidyoupickupfromthem?A.Ulcers.WhatdidIpickupfromthem?

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Iwouldbehardputtonaildownonespecificthingortwospecificthings,butIthinkthechallengeofgettingthemawayfromthinkingitwasplayandgettingthemtothinkaboutitasbeingsomethingthatwasvaluableandhardworkwaswellworthit.Q.Youoncetoldmeartwasabattle.A.It'salwaysabattle.Q.Yeah.A.Imean,writerswilltellyouthataboutwriting,andfilmmakerswilltellyouthataboutfilm.Q.Yeah.A.Imean,it'safightandit'snotalwaysuphill.Q.Sothatwasoneofthethingsthatyouwantedtogetyourstudentstounderstand?A.Yes,yes,andsomeofthemnevergotoverthecraft,whatIwouldcallacraftmentalityof,oh,it'salotoffun,andIgetawaywithdoingthis,andIcangetawaywithdoingthat,thatkingofthing.Soitbecameanumbrellaforbadbehaviorinmanycases,andweseethatalottoday,butthereareafewthatreallytookitseriouslyanddoneverywell.Q.Wouldyounameacoupleofthemjustnotto

38

beexclusive?A.Well,RobertChamberslocallyisone.KarenRifasisanotherone.TomAshcraftwhoistheinchargeofthesculpturedepartmentatJamesMadisonJamesMasonUniversityoutsideofWashington.LouisGispert.Q.Thatisalreadyaveryproudnumberofpeoplethere.A.Yeah.Q.Yeah.A.Theyare,andthere'salotmore,butIjustyouknow.Q.Theyarealsoverydifferentfromeachother.SothatisaA.Thatisthehardpart.Q.Thatisthehardpart.A.Tryingtokeepthemintheirownskinandthathasalwaysbeenabattle,youknow.Q.Howdoyouencouragethat?Howdoyougetthemtofindthatskin?A.Ihavenoidea.Q.Doyouknowitinyourself?A.OneoftheproblemsIfeltineducation,inthewayIteachanyway,isIteachfairlyintimately,

39

fairlyoneononebasiswheneverpossible.Imean,youknow,yougetaclassofstudents,andit'shardtoconnectwitheverybody,butinoursocietyrightnow,thatIdon'tthinkworksverywellbecausethereissomuchlitigationaboutimproprietiesandthings,butIreallypushedthemtotrytogetintothemselvesandfindoutabouttheirlivesandhowthatwouldaffectwhathappenedwiththem.Q.Well,youseemtomanagewiththeonesthatyounamed.A.Well,thatiswhyInamedthembecauseit'ssafe.TherearealotofpeoplethatwereinmyclassesthatIrememberthemwhenIthinkaboutthem,butthatareinpublicschoolteachingandthingslikethat,too.So,Imean,there'salotofsuccessstoriesoutthere,andtheyarealloverthecountry.Imean,Igetstuff,emailsandFacebookandstuffallthetimefrompeople.Q.Whataboutyourcontemporaries,theotherteachers,theotherartistswhocameheretowork?A.Whataboutthem?Q.Whoamongthemareyourfriends,withwhomyouexchangeideasordoyou?A.Idon'tveryoften.JillCannaday,whois

40

marriedtoRobertSindelir.Wetalkperiodically.Wespendasmuchtimeaswecan.Theyliveupinthemiddleofthestatenow.And[Robert]Thiele.Q.Let'stalkaboutJillonesecondbecauseoneofmyquestionsaboutyouisIdon'tthinkIhaveeverseenafigurativepiecefromyouinanyway.Imean,Ihaveseenpiecesofsculpturethatremindofthehumanbody.A.Yeah.Q.ButIhaveneverseenanyfigurative.Youmusthavedoneitasastudent,butIhaveneverseenitinyourexhibitedwork.A.Yeah.Itneverreallyintriguedmethatmuch.Therewassomuchotherstuffoutthereandeverybodyelseseemedtobedoingfigurativework.TheonlyfigurativepiecethatIthinkIhavedoneandtheonlyselfportraitthatIeverdidisastructuralpiecelikeafoldedalmostmirroredsurfacepiecewithmyimagesandblastedfromthebackintotheglassinprofileandinfrontofme,butthatistheonlyone.Q.Whatinitiatedapiecelikethat?A.Oh,BerniceSteinbaumQ.Youknowyouwereresponsibleforteaching

41

kidswhowentonforMFA's.A.Well,actuallyforBachelorsandMFA's.Q.AndMFA's,andnowwehavehadliketwo,threegenerationsofMFA'steachingMFA's,whichisverydifferentfromA.Frombefore.Q.whenyoustarted,whenthosewereartistswhowereteachers.Theywerenottheyhadn'tgonethroughthesystem.TherewerefewofA.Mostofthemhavehad,butQ.Buttherewereveryfewarttherewerenoartcolleges.Imean,therewasTheArtStudentsLeague.Theywerementors.Theywerepeoplewhotaughtpeoplehowtopaint.Therewerestudiosthatinvolvedwhereleadingartistshiredotherartists,butwenowhavelikethree,fourgenerationsofMFA'steachingMFA's,andtheartseemstohavelostitscontextintheprocess.A.Itseemstohavelostalot,andIdon'tknowifweshouldgothere.Q.Gothere.Gothere.Thisisaboutyou.A.Iactually,Ihaveaverypetpeeveandithastodowiththecollegeofeducationandtheirattempt

42

tocontrolandmakethemselvesselfimportantthroughtheuseofeducationalpsychologyandvariousmeansformeasuringoutcomesoflearningandtryingtoapplythemtocreativeareas.AndIdon'tthinkitworks.Ineverhavethoughtitworked.OneofthereasonsthatIstayeddepartmentchairaslongasIdidwastotryasineffectivelyasIcouldtobeablockage,afilter.Q.Tokeepthebastardsout.A.Exactly,tokeepthebastardsout.Icouldn'tputitbettermyself,buttotrytokeepthatoutofthestudy,youknow,Imean,becauseithaspermeatedthestudy,andithaspermeatededucation,andIdon'tthinkit'sworking.Imean,ifitwasworking,whydowegivevoucherstoprivateschools,privatepublicschools?Imean,thischarterschoolbusinessisabsurd.Q.Howisthisaffecting,specificallyaffectingthestudentsofthevisualartsandtheoneswhoareactuallymakingcareerstoday?A.Well,thereisaninterestingthing.Iguessit'sadverselyaffectingthem.Okay?Idon'tthinkitallowsthemtogrowastheymightnormallygrow,butwhathappensisthatyouwindupwithpeopleteaching

43

thesamemistakesthattheyweretaught.Q.ThatiswhatImeanbyMFA'steachingMFA's.A.Right,andsoyouhaveapersongoingthroughanMFAprogramandtheonlythingtheyknowistheinformationtheygotfromthatparticularprogram,whichtheyinturnbestowuponanothergroupofpeoplewhotheyinturn,andit'sliketheoldthingofsayingsomethingandpassingitaroundtheroom.Bythetimeitgetsbacktoyou,it'satotallydifferentconcept.Well,thatiswhatisgoingon.Imean,it'snotIdon'tthinkit'sparticularlybeneficialtoanybody.Apprenticeshipprogramsareveryimportant.Q.Theyusedtobe.A.Theyare,andtheyareveryimportantinthearts,andtheyareveryimportantinsociety.Imean,noteverybodyneedsaliberalartseducation.Theyneedtheinformation.Theyneedaccesstoit,butIthinkthereneedstobesomebodyandtherearecompaniesthatarelookingatthatnow.Therewasone,acompanyinGreensboroGreensboro,NorthCarolinaorSouthCarolina.Greenville,SouthCarolina.Iwaswatchingthenewslastnight.Theywerebringingkidsin.They

44

wereactuallyapproachingelementaryschoolsandbeginningtofosterdevelopmentofideasintokidsbecausetheyneedtotrainpeopletoinspectaircraftandtearthemapartandputthembacktogetherperiodically.Q.Soit'stheoldguildsystem.A.Exactly.Q.Imean,thatgoesbacktomedievaltimes.A.Iunderstandthat.Q.Butweneverhadthatinthiscountry.A.Thatiswhattheyaredoingnowbecausewedon'thaveanapprenticeprogram.Q.Thatisright.A.Ifwehadanapprenticeprogram,thenmaybethatwouldhavehappened.AndIknowvocationaledtriedtodothat,buttheywoundupwithsuchabadnameforeverybody.NobodywantstoadmitthattheywenttoRobertMorganTech,youknow,thatkindofthing.Soit'saninterestingdilemma,anditwillbeanother50yearsQ.WehavetogobacktoRubensandhisatelierwith40painterslearninghowtopaint.A.ButwehavetogobacktoasupportsystemofsomekindsoRubenscanaffordtodothat.

45

Q.Someotherpatronage.A.Right.Q.Thechurch,Idon'tthinkso.A.No,Idon'tthinkso.Q.Idon'tthinkso.A.AndtherearesomanypeoplewithsomuchmoneyrightnowthatIdon'tknowwhereitwouldcomefrom,becauseweliveinakindofmetimeperiod,youknow.Q.Thereisalotofmoneyaround,andthereisalotofmoneyaroundforart,butnotforthestrugglingartist.A.Right,right.Q.Yeah.Idon'tknowthatthereisanyhistoryofthathere.Imean,weneverhadthat.A.No.Q.ButMiamiismoresophisticatedthanitwasinthe1960s.A.Yes,andit'smorediversified.Q.Andthatisagoodthingforart.A.Ithinkit'sagoodthingforthesocietyingeneral.Q.Yeah.Soifyouwerearrivingheretoday,

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itwouldbeverydifferentfromwhenyougothere.A.Yeah.Q.Whenthereweretwogalleriesandamuseumandahalf.A.Uhhuh.Well,itwasn'tevenahalf.Q.Well,theLowewasalreadyinabuilding.A.Yeah,theLowewasthere,butthatwasQ.Itwasalreadyinabuilding.A.The[other]museumspacewas,actually,theNorton.Q.Well,theNortonwasgoodbythen.TheNortonwasalwaysagoodmuseum.A.Oh,yeah,Iknow.Yeah.Q.Yeah.Whatdoyouseeashelpinganyofthishelpingartiststodaycomingheretoday?A.Frommystandpoint,beingsupportive.Q.Yougotoeverything.Yougotoalltheopenings.A.Igotoasmanyopeningsaspossible,andwhenthereisworkthatwefeelthatwecanaffordandstuff,wedobuywork.Q.Doyouexchangethingswithartists?A.Trade?Q.Yeah.

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A.No.Q.Youdon't?A.Seldom.IdidwhenIwasastudent,andeveryonceinawhileIhave,butitjustdoesn'thappen.Idon'tknowwhethertheydon'tlikewhatIdoorwhat.Q.Maybetheythinktheyarelosingontheirendofthebargain.A.Yeah,right,thatiswhatIamthinking.WouldIgivehimagoodpieceofmineforthat.Q.ButIknowthatyousupporttheartistsandallthecollegegalleries.A.Thatiswhattheteachinggigwasabout,too.Imean,itwasnotjustsupportingme,butitwasalsosupportingthedevelopmentofthenextImean,youhavetogiveback.Imean,thatisjustallthereistoit.Q.Butwhenyoustartedfindingoutthatyouwantedtobeanartist,diditoccurtoyouthatyouwouldhavetosupportyourselfwithteaching?A.Thatwasaparticularlyhardtimeinmylife.So,no,Ididn't,andthenIdid,thenIdidn't,andthenIdid,andthenIdecidedIwouldhedgemybetswhenIwasanundergraduateandIwouldtakeadouble

48

major.SoIwouldhavearteducationoverhereandIwouldhavefineartshere.AndItookacoupleofeducationcourses,whichIhated,butIwaswillingtodo,andwenttoenrollforthethirdcourseinthesequence,andtheywouldn'tletmeenroll,andtheysaiditwasbecauseIwasnotadeclarededucationmajor.SoIwentbacktomydean,andIsaidthisiswhattheytoldme,canyoubelievethat.Hesaid,no,Idon'tbelievethat.Hegetsonthephone.Hecallsthedeanofthecollegeofeducation,andtheyyellateachotherQ.Theyyellateachother.A.forabout30,40minutes,andhehangsup.Hesaid,Iguessyoucan'tdoit.Isaid,well,Iguess,I'mnotgoingtobeaneducationmajorthen.Andthatmadethedecisionformerighttherebecause,Imean,Iwouldsufferthem,butnotifIhadtolosetheother,andthatwaswhenitwasthatwaswhenitbecameveryapparenttomethatwewereproducingarteducatorswithverylittleartexperience.Thatwasthebeginningofthedownfallofalotofthat.Q.Butthatistruetoday.A.No,Iknow.Ithasn'tgoneaway.Q.Thathasn'tgoneaway.

49

A.No.Idon'texpectittogoaway.Q.Yeah.Soit'stheartmajorthathastodecidehowtheyaregoingtoearnaliving.A.It'stheartmajor,thepersonwhoiscommittedtobeinganartistthathastodothat,andinorderforyoutoteachifpushcomestoshove,youhavetohaveanMFA.Q.Inordertodoanything,youhavetohaveanMFA.A.Right,andevennow,Imeanwell,thatisanotherissue,butIdon'tthinktheMFAprogramsareveryrigorousanymore.Q.Well,Iwonderedaboutthat.Imean,dotheyteachdrawing?Dotheyteachfiguredrawing?DotheyteachA.Thereareschoolsthathavedrawingmajors.Idon'tknowwhathappenstothosestudents.Youwouldhavetoconnectwithaschoolandfindout,butQ.Uhhuh,but,Imean,thecurriculumiswhat?Imean,ifyouareanartmajor,ifyougotothecollegetoday,whatisthecurriculumtogetaBFA?A.ABFA?

50

Q.Yeah.A.ABFAwouldbefoundations,drawinganddesign,thingslikethat.Q.Howrigorousisthedesignforinstance?A.ItvariesfromschooltoschoolIwouldimagine.Imean,wewererealrigorousforalongtimeandthenitjustkindofgraduallyslidderedawayfromunderneathus.Youfindthatthestudentsdon'tputforththeeffort,andthenyoustartnotputtingforththeeffort,andthenitjust,youknow,itkindofgraduallynobodyisputtingforthanyeffort.Q.Whatabouttheliteracy?A.Thathasbeenanissue.Ithasbeenabigissue.IwastellingIthinkIwastellingBarryalittlewhileagothatIhadno.IwastellingGioalittlewhileagothatIhadstudentsatsouthcampuswhohadneverseentheocean.IhadstudentsatsouthcampuswhohadneverseentheEverglades,didn'tevenknowwheretheywere,and,youknow,KendallisrightontheedgeoftheEverglades.Sowhatdotheydo?Theyliveintheselittlecommunitiesandtheyneverleavethem.Thatissuchalimitingexperience.Q.Howdotheyevenknowtheywanttobeart

51

majors?A.Oh,becausesomebodyinhighschooltoldthemthattheyweregoodandtheywantapproval.Q.Oh,becausetheycandraw?A.Yeah.Theywantapproval.Q.It'samazing.A.Mostofthosepeoplefallbythewaysidebytheway.Q.Iwouldguessso.Yeah.But,Imean,Idon'tseehowanybodycanbeanartistwhoisn'tobservantandcurious.A.Curious.Q.Andsmart.A.Yeah.ThatiswhyIusedtotakemystudentstothezoo,butwhenItookthemtothezoo,ItookthemtotheoneonCrandonParkwhenitwasstillthere,andthatwasagreatzoo.Iwouldn'ttakethemtotheonedowntherenow.It'stoobig.Q.Iremembertheartworksthatwereputupinthezoo.Whereyouapartofthat?A.No,Iwasn't,butIwentouttoseetheexhibition.

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Q.Thatwasagreatexhibitionoutthere.Whatdoyourememberabouttheexhibitionshere?Imean,whatwasthefirstmemorableoneoutsidefromyourownshowatSindelir?Andwhatdidyoushowthere?A.ThechromeplatedPlexiglasspieces,andsomedrawings.Q.Wherewereyoumakingthosechromeplated?Wherewereyoudoingthatwork?A.TherewasAmericanPlatingwasonSecondAvenuejustnorthofFlaglerStreet.Q.SoyouweregoingtothecommercialsectortogetyourA.Yeah.EverythingIdidwascommercial.Q.Youcouldn'tdothatatthecollege?TherewasnoA.No,no.Chromeplatingisaplatingprocessthatinvolveslayingcopper,nickelandchromiumontoametalsurfacethroughelectriccurrent,andtheacidsandchemistryinvolvedinit,therewasatoxicwastesiteithadtogoforthat.Q.Sothatwouldneverhavehappenedatthecollege?A.No,no.No,no.WhenIwasinTampaIgot

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themdonebyapersonwhodidonlymotorcycleparts.Thatisalltheydid,andhemadeaspecialexceptionforme,buthere,AmericanPlatinghadbeeninbusinessforalongtime,andtheyletmecomeinandbringstufftothemandeverything.Q.Sohowlongwasitbeforeyouhadsomeofthesewonderfulmaterialsthatyouhavehere,soyoucoulddoyourmetalworkandyourcuttingandA.Well,thosethingsjustevolved,youknow.There'spieceslikethesculpturesthataredownhere,thesteelsculptures,theonethatisoverthere,thosepiecesevolvedoutofasawthatIbought.Imean,itwasjustthatsimple.Imean,theformsandstuff,ofcourse,werethingsIwasthinkingabout,buttheabilitytodothem,IboughtasawfromsomefriendswhohadjustbeforeIbuiltthepiecefortheairport,theAtaieshadawarehousedownhere,andtheywereleavingtown,andtheyhadalease,andIpickeduptheirleasebecauseitwasrightafterAndrew,andIwasworriedIwouldn'tbeabletogetspaceandtheyhadthissaw,andtheyweren'tgoingtotakeitwiththem,andtheysoldittome.Q.MaryLeewasusingthesaw?

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A.Yeah,MaryLeewasusingthesaw,anditwasbrandnew.Shehadusedittwice,Ithink,orsomething.Sothepiecesaresolidsteel,but,Imean,youknow,three,fourinchesthickofsteelandthesawwillcutrightstraightthroughit,andIgotsomesmerizedbyit,Ijustkeptgoing.SooveraperiodofaboutayearandahalfIdidnothingbutusethatsaw.Q.Sothatis,youknow,gettinginspirationfromatechnicalA.Atechnicalthing.Q.thing.Thathappensoftentoyou,Imean?Yeah?A.Yeah,sure.Imean,IwouldbelyingifIdidn'tsaythatwastrue.Q.Ofcourse,thatdoesn'tdecidewhatitlookslike.A.Exactly.Q.Itjustdecideshowitgetsthere.A.Butitdoesopenuppossibilities.Imean,Iknowthematerialsverywell.SoIknowwhichoneswoulddowhatprettymuch.So,youknow,mysaw,forexample,wasa

55

godsendforme.Imean,IjustandIusedonebefore,asmallerversionofit.WhenIItookayearoffin{197}2fromthecollege.IwenttoEuropeforayear,andwhenIcameback,Ididn'thaveanymoney,andIcouldn'tcomebacktoworkuntilAugust,andwewerebackinMay,Ithink,orsomething.SoIstayedatmyparents'houseinDunedin,Florida,upnearClearwater,andgotajobatamachineshop,and,again,helpingmywork.AndIwasalreadyaproficientwelder,andmyjobthere,actually,wastorunthesaw,andmakethesecutsforthisproductionthingthisguywasdoing.Itwasanindependentmachineshop,sohejustwouldpickupoddjobsandstuff.SothatishowIfoundoutaboutthesaw.SowhenIgotbacktoMiami,thefirstthingIdidwasconthecollegeintobuyingoneofthosesaws,andweusedthat.Wewentthroughtwoofthem,andthenthiscameup.SoIcouldhideinmyownlittlespaceandmakemyownthingswithit,soIdid.Q.Sodidyoubuildthiswholething?WasthisagarageorA.Thisbuilding?

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Q.Yeah.A.Thisbuildingwasbuiltjustforthis.Q.Justforthis?A.Yeah.RightafterAndrew,wewereBarbaraandItalkedaboutbuildingaspaceontopofthegarageandgoingouttowardsthestreet,soitwouldbeasecondlevelthingandthenthedownstairscouldbegarageandweldingarea.AndAndrewcamethroughandthereweretwobigoaktreesinourbackyard.Theywererighthere,andtheywerejustgone.SoIsaid,well,thisiswhereitgoes,andhereitis.Q.Irememberwhenitwasallbutnew.A.Yeah.Yeah,thatwasin,what,'95,Ithink,'94,'95.Q.Youhavefilledit.A.Yes,Iknow.Iknow.I'mthinkingaboutthat.Q.Soareyoudoinganycommissionsnow?Iknowyouareretiredfromthecollege.A.No,no,I'mnot,and,actually,IhavebeenlookingatthembecauseIgetallthatinformationfromvarioussources,andIhaven'tseenanythingthatinterestsme,really.

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Imean,Icangooutthereanddosomethingjustforthemoney,butIamnotinterestedindoingthatanymore.Q.Haveyouevermadeavideoasanartpiece?A.No.Imadeafilm,aneightmillimeterfilmwhenIwasingraduateschool.Expensive.Ihadnomoneyanyway,andIspenttonsofmoneyonthisthing.WehadanAeroflexno,wehadmillimeterAeroflex,andaneightmillimeterIdon'trememberwhatitwas,but,anyway,Imadethefilm.ItwastheworstthingIhaveeverdoneinmylife.Q.Wasitanarrative?Whatwasit?A.No.Itwasavisualcompositeofthings,oftrains,andCatholicchurchesandthingslikethat,andshotatnightsomeofit.Someofitinthedaytime.ItwasjustItriedtodoeverythingmyself,andbecauseIamnotreallygoodatcollaborating,andIknowthat.It'soneofmyfaults,andtobeafilmperson,youhavetocollaborate.Q.Iwouldsay.Atleasttwoguys.A.Atleasttwoguys,and,hopefully,theyaregoodfriends.SoIjustkindofputthatbythewayside,butIdidshootsomevideo,higheightstuffofthe

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processattheotherstudiowhenIbuiltthepiecefortheairport,theceramictilethings,butallIdidwasbasicallytherewasaloftandIputthecameraupintheloft.IhadaremoteandIjustturneditonandletitrunallday.Q.Sothatwasjustadocument?A.Yeah,anditwasfun.Imean,therewasfunnythingsgoingonintheradio,andmebangingtilesaround,anddoingstuff,anditwasjustkindofremindingmewhereIwasbecausesomedaysitgottobesothatIdidn'tknow,someofthose[12]hourdays,butthatwasbutthatsaid,Iamnotreallygoodatcollaborations.SoQ.Butyoudotakephotographs?A.Idotakephotographs.Istartedtakingphotographsinabout1964.Photographywasjustbecomingcurricularachievementintheuniversitysystem,andoneoftheprofessorsthatIworkedwithatSouthFlorida,BrynManley,whowasaBritishartist,hadbeenatAlfredinupstateNewYork.Q.Iwentthere.A.Didyou?Q.Yeah,forayear.A.Hewastherefortwoyears,Ithink,

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teachingprintmaking,andhestartedtakingphotoclasses.AndsowhenhecamedowntotheUniversityofSouthFlorida,hedecidedhewantedtotrytostartaphotoprogram,andtherewasonepersoninourgroupofstudentswhohadbeenaphotographerinthemilitary,andsoheknew,hadalotofthetechnicalstuffdown,andsowebuiltadarkroom,andwehadfun,anditwasinteresting.Q.Butyouhavenevershownphotographs?A.Justthatonetimeinmygraduatethesisshow.Q.Thatisit?A.Yeah.Q.AndthatwaspartofA.Theyweremultipleexposures.Sotheywerelayered.Iwouldshootoneimage,andthenshootanotherimage,andthatworkedreallygoodforalongtimeexceptIgottothepoint,andthisissomethingthathappenswithme,IgettothepointwhereIcananticipatewhatisgoingtohappen,andthenIdecideIbettergodosomethingelseforawhile.Q.SoisthathowyouchangefromA.Sometimes.

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Q.fromonemediumtoanotherA.Sometimes.Q.orfromoneconcepttoanother?A.Sometimes.Notalways,butsometimes.Q.SoyouseeA.Ifitbecomeseasy,andIcanseewhatisgoingtohappen,andIpickupacamera,andIshootyou,andthenIshootoverhere,andIknowthatthatlightfromthatwindowisgoingtowipeoutpartofyou,andleavepartofyoubecauseofthemullionbetweenthetwoglasspanes,anditwouldwipeoutanotherpartofyou,Iknowthatthatisgoingtohappen,thenwhywouldIdoit?Youknow,itjustdidn'tmakeanysense.Q.Soyougoontothenextthing?A.SoIgoontosomethingelse.Q.Andyouhavethisfacilitytohandleallthesedifferentmaterials.A.Well,thatiswhy.Imean,IthinkisbecauseIneededtodothattokeepmyselfinterested,andImaybeADD.Idon'tknow.Q.Idon'tthinksobecausethereissuchcontinuityinyourwork.A.Well,yeah,butsometimesI'mjusttotallyoffthewalls.

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Q.Sohaveyoueverlookedbackonanyofyourwork,maybeatashowormaybejustinyourbrain,andseenabadtime?Iamreallyaskingyouifyoucancurateyourownwork.A.Yes.Imean,Idon'tknowifit'sbadornotasgoodas.Q.Well,somethingthatdisappointsyouorthatyouseeA.TherearepointswhereIwantedtobe,andIseethemasstepstogettingto.Yes,yes,thathappens,uhhuh.Q.DoyourememberanythingspecificallythatyoucouldA.Well,actually,someofthesepiecesbackherearelikethatbecause,becausetheyledmetothese.Q.Yeah.A.AndIlikethesebetterthanthoserightnow.Imean,lateron,Imaylikethosebetterthanthese,butatthismoment,Iprobably,ifIwascuratingworkfrominhere,Iprobablywouldexcludethose.Q.Soinasense,theyarekindofyoursketches,yourdrawings,your

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A.Yeah,butIdon'tconsiderthemthatway.Iconsiderthemtobefinishedworks,youknow.Imean,traditionally,youdon'tthinkofsketchesanddrawingsasfinishedwork.Q.Well,alotofartistsdo.A.Well,Iunderstandthatnow,butQ.Sketchbooksarevaluableproperties.A.Yeah.Q.Soyoudon'thaveany.A.Huh?Q.Youdon'thaveany.Sowedon'thavetolookforthem.A.Youdon'thavetolookatthem,no.I'llsaveyouthetrouble.Q.Ithinkit'squiteunusualnottohavethosepreparatorythingsforthekindofworkyoudo,butit'sinterestingtomethatyoudon't,andthatyouneverthoughtthatway.A.No,Ineverhave.Imeanno.Q.Doyourememberwhatyouweredoinginthatfirstshow?IwishIcouldhavebeenaflyonthewallatSindelirGallery.Whatwerethedrawings?Yousaidtheywere

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drawings?A.Thedrawingswerelinear.Theyhadmusicalnotesinthem.Q.Wheredidthatcomefrom?A.Theloveoftheformofthemusical.Q.Youmeantheclef,justhavingthescorethere,themanuscript?A.Yeah,butthesewereroundscores.Q.Oh.A.Theywereveryunusualscores.Somebody,amusicianfriendofmineinTampahadshownthemtome,andIreallyfellinlovewiththewaytheylooked.Theywerethoseandtheywerekindoflandscape.Q.YouknowJohnCagedidstufflikethatonmusicalmanuscript,yeah.A.Yeah,well,Ididn'tworkonthemanuscripts.Iactuallyredidthem.Q.Youdidityourself,yeah.A.Andthentherewereelementsthatcameinlikelittlelandscapeparksandstufflikethat.Q.SoweretheycoloredorweretheyA.Yes,coloredpencil.

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[Q.Break?A.Yes,coloredpencil.]Q.Coloredpencil.A.Yes,coloredpencil.Writethat.(Breakinaudiorecording.)Q.Soweweretalkingaboutworkyoudidwithcoloredpencils.A.Yes.Q.Andyouwereusingalsophotoemulsionatthatpoint?A.AlittlebitlaterIhadbeenfamiliarwiththephotoemulsionprocessandIuseditbefore,butIuseditonaluminum,andit'sbasicallyasilvernitratesolutionthatyoupaintonthesurface,letitdry,andthenyouprocessitjustlikeyouwouldablackandwhitephotograph.WhenIwenttoEurope,Ispentalotoftimelooking,verylittletimemaking.IdiddoaseriesofdrawingsinHolland,butthatwasaboutit,andafterthat,Idecideditwasjusttoocumbersome,andIwentjusttomuseumsandlived.SowhenIcameback,Idecidedtouseadarkroom,andIusedtheoneatthecollege,andwentbackintothephotoemulsionbusiness,andwhatIwould

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do,therewasadrawingstudiorightnexttothedarkroom.SoSaturdaynight,whenIhadSaturdaynightthroughMondaymorningtowork,Iwouldtapeoffthatdoorforthatdrawingroomandmoveverylargetraysinofdeveloperandprocessingmaterials,andanenlargerandthenIwouldtakelargesheetsofpaperandputthemonthewallandprojectaphotographoranegativeontothatafterIhadpaintedemulsionon,andIdidn'tpaintitoverthewholesurface.Iwoulddogesturalpaintingoftheemulsion,andthenletthatdry,andthenprocessitlikeaphotograph,andthendrawintoitwithcoloredpencil.AndthatwentonuntilIstoppedhavingaccesstothedarkroomforsomereason.Q.Sothesewerelargedrawings?A.Someofthedrawingsarelikeeightfeetsquare.Q.Wow.A.Someofthemaresix,seven,eightfeettalland32incheswide.Theywerealldoneon32by42inchArchepaper.Ihadtoexperimentwithpaperforawhiletofindapaperthatwouldnotcomeapartintherinsingbathbecausetheyhadtowashforawhile,andArchecover

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seemedtobethebestpaper.Itheldup.ItwassomethingIwasusedtousing,andIhavealwaysusedPrismacolorpencilsfromthedayIdiscoveredthem,andIlikethembecausetheyarewaxbased,sothecolorisstable.Occasionally,theywillgetalightfilmonthem,whichcanbebuffedoffifitbothersyou,butitneverbotheredme.Q.Theyarealsowarm.A.Yes.Q.Theyhaveawarmsurface.A.Andbehindmethereisawholepileofthem.Q.Soyoustillusethem?A.Iamstillusingthem,yes.Q.Youstillusethem?A.Yes.Q.Sothatisyou,actually,knowhowtoworkwithphotographythen?A.Yes,yeah.Well,thatwasthatwaskindoftome,itwasalogicalextensionofprintmaking.Now,aprintmakerwillshootmeforsayingthis.Q.Yeah.A.Ofcourse,aphotographerprobablywouldtoo,butIhadbeendoingprintmakingforquiteawhile,

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andIreallyenjoyedprintmaking,butit'salotofwork,andIwasalwaystryingtofigureoutnotreallyeasierwaysofdoingthings,butmoreefficientwaysofdoingthings,andIwasgettingboggeddowninprintmaking,andphotographycamealong,anditwassomethingIcouldmakeimagesmuchfasterwith,andtheyweren'tprecious,andthatisprobablywhyIdon'tshowphotographsisbecausetome,forme,formywork,forwhatIdo,theyarenotprecious.Ihaveseenpreciousphotographs,andIdoknowthatwork.Q.Haveyouevercollectedphotographsorboughtany?A.No.Ihavesome.DavidReed,whowasthephotographerwhenIcametoMiamiDade.Q.IknowDavid,yes.A.Ihaveseveralofhispieces.IamoldfriendofBillMaguire's,butIdon'thaveanyofhiswork.Ihavetothinkaboutthat.Q.Itisfunny,isn'tit?Idon'teither.Ithinkit'sfunnybecauseIhavealwaysadmiredhiswork,yeah.A.Yeah.Soyouaskedmeaboutthefigureandstuff,andinsomeofthosepieces,therearefigures.

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Therearepeople.ThefirstwhenIfirststarteddoingit,Iwasreallyintriguedwiththerelationshipofmycoloredpencildrawingsandtheyouthfairandthelittlecarnivalsthatshowupinthewintertimearound.SothatiswhereIwouldphotograph.Iwouldgototheseplacesandshootphotographs.Therewerealsothingslikerepetitionofbulbs,andIwasverymuchinvolved,andprobablystillamintherepetitionofimages,andhowtheydoanddon'tchangeatthesametime.Sothosekindsofimages.AndthenthelastseriesofphotoemulsiondrawingsIdidwereactuallypinballmachines,whichareveryhardtoshootbecauseoftheglass,butQ.Theglassisdirty.A.Well,itcanbe,butit'salsoreflective.Q.Yes.A.SoIdidacoupleofsuitesofdrawingsof,Idon'tknow,apieceorsomethingthatwereofthepinballmachines.ThelastoneIdidIremember,becausethisiswhenIstoppeddoingthem,isthatIusedthesamenegativeineveryone,butcontrolleditbythegesturalapplicationofthisphotoemulsionmaterial.SoIwould

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doacirclemaybewithloosebrushmarks,andloosebrushmarks,ofcourse,wouldshowpartofthatimage,andthenthecirclewouldshowpartofit,andthenIdrawintothatwholething.Q.Butyoudidn'tdrawfigurativelyintothat?A.No,no,butthefigurativepartQ.Itwouldbethere.A.cameupintheimagepartofthephotographimage,correct.Q.Yeah.SoIwanttocomeforwardalittlebitfromthosedaysbecauseartistsinMiamialways,alwayshavesomethingtosayaboutArtBaselandhowitstrikesthemordoesn'tstrikethem,andIthinkbecauseit'ssomuchpartofourcurrentyear.Youknow,thisisourcalendaryear.WealwayshaveArtBasel,andweneedtogetthatintothearchives.Sowhatisyourtakeonallthis?A.Okay.Well,I'llstartitoutbysayingthatoneofthefirstfairsofthatnaturewastheNavyPiershowinChicago.Q.Yes.Youusedtogotothat.Irememberthat.A.Some,Idid,andIhadsomeworkinit.

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Thepersonwhodevelopedthatandranthatforyears,hisnameisJohnWilson,andJohnisalsothepersonwhoownsLakesideStudios,andhewasalsothepersonthatsponsoredusgoingintotheSovietUnion.SoIhaveakindofintimaterelationshipwiththatwholeideaofartfair,andIhadmetJohnoriginally,andIdidn'trealizethisuntilwereacquainted,originallyabout[year?],andhewasaprintdealerforFerdinandRotenoutofPhiladelphia.AndFerdinandRotenhaddevelopedthiswouldbuyupalltheseprintsandthengivethemtoJohnandJohnwouldtravelaroundthecountryandsellprintsatuniversitiesandartcentersandmuseumsandthings.Soitwaskindofanaturalthingandtalented.Q.Thatiskindoffair.A.Thatis,exactly,atravelingfair,andsothentheartfairthing.SoArtBaselneverwasanythingmorethanacommercialventuretome.Okay?Amoneymakingschemeifyouwill.Ithinkthattheyhaveputsomefairlydecentrestrictionsonthejuryingprocesssothattheyhaveaprettygoodcrosssectionofartistsandgalleriesandthings.IthinkthatthemainbenefactorsinMiamiofthat,ofcourse,arethehotelindustriesandthe

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serviceindustries.Thehoteltax,I'msure,getsabigboostoutofthat,butintermsofitseffectonlocalartists,Iamandthejuryisstilloutwithmeonthat.Imean,Iknowtherearepeoplewhothinkthatit'sthegreatestthingsinceboiledmilk,butQ.Whywouldthey?A.Whywouldthey?Q.Whywouldalocalartistthinkthatitwasabenefittothem?A.Well,Idon'tthinktheyarenow.Imean,Ithinktheyoriginallywere.Q.Theyoriginallywere.A.Andaswewerereferringtoearlier,thebestyearforBaselwasthefirstyearwhentheydidn'tshowup,andBobChambersputtogethertheexhibition[attheBassMuseumofArt]IHOSVANI"GEO"RODRIGUEZ(camera):Iamgettingstaticforsomereason.Q.Isitmymike?No?A.Isitmine?IHOSVANI"GEO"RODRIGUEZ(camera):Ithinktheantenna.Youwanttomoveitoutalittleoverbehind?Putitonthefloorandstretchit?Let'sdothat.Q.Ithoughtyouwerethedog.

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A.Givingyoustatic.Q.Ithoughtyouwerethedog.Weweregoingtozapyouwithit.A.Thezapperisoverthere.Sheiswatchingme.Q.Sheiswatchingyou.Shewillzaponmycommand.(Staticontheaudio.)BARRONSHERER(producer):Idon'thearitnow.Letmeunplugtherefrigerator.Q.Itjustlookslikesomething.Imean,everythinghereisaninstrumentofonesortoranother.A.IthinkanybenefitthatlocalartistsgetfromArtBaselareusuallyconnectedwiththesatellitefairsandalsowithpossibleconnectionsthattheymakewithpeople.Imean,notsomuchatBaselbecauseIthinkthatthatisadifferentcrowd,butatthelocalfairsandthings,thesatelliteissues.Ithinkthattheydomakesomeconnectionsorsomepeoplehavemadeconnectionsthathavehelpedthemagreatdeal.Q.WhatabouttheeducationalconceptofnoteverybodycanaffordeventogotoArtBasel,butithasexposedpeoplewhowouldn'tgotomuseumsnecessarilywhogotothefairbecausethere'ssomuchhypeaboutitthat

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theygotothefair?Theyspendtheir35or65orwhateveritistogo,andtheygettoseereallygoodart.A.Uhhuh.Q.Whichtheydon'tnecessarilygetfromourmuseums.A.No,thatistrue,andthereissomethingtobesaid.Imean,it'snottheBarefootMailman.Q.No,no.It'sbetter.A.It'sbetterthanQ.thanlocalmural.A.Insomecases,it'sbetterthannothingatall.Q.Yeah,andthenetworking,Ithink,weA.Thenetworking.Q.Networkingisimportantforartistsandforthedealersandforthecollectors.A.Yes.Q.Yeah.So,butIabsolutelyunderstandhowyoufeel,andhowthatfirst2002ArtBasel,whichneverhappened,thatwasagreatshowthatBobChambersputtogetherattheBass.A.Yes,itwas.Itwasalotoffundoing

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thatshowtoo.Q.Andeverybodywasinit.Allthelocalswereinit,anditwasanimportantandgreatshow,anditwasthebestthingthateverhappenedtotheBassatthatmomentalso.A.Yes,eversince.Q.Eversince,yeah.Iwanttoknowhowyoudocumentyourwork.Imean,thereisalotofworkinthisroom,andthere'shundredsofpiecesthathavebeensold.Iseeslidebooks,butI'msureyouarenotdoingthatnow.A.No,Ididitupuntiljustafewyearsagothough.ThatisthewayIstartedoutdoingit.It'sslides,slidebook.Thoseweremasters,andthenIhaveslidedrawerswithmultiplesinit.SothatifIhavetomailthemoutorusethemforsomething,andthatwastheonlywaywecoulddobusiness,butnowwithdigitalstuffit'smucheasierandmuchharderatthesametime.Rightnow,youaresittinginaroomthatisprobablyzeropercentdocumented.Ikindofreallyslackedoff.Ihavebeenarealbadboybecauseit'sbecomemoreimportantformerightnowjusttomaketheworkandnotworryaboutthat.

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Before,itwasadefiniteconcern,anditwillbeagainI'msure.Iamjustnotinterestedinthatrightnow.Q.Soareyouwhatareyoudoing?YouaretakinghowareyouA.Ishoot.LargerpiecesIshootwithadigitalcamera,andthenonthesmallerdrawingsandthings,IhaveaflatbedscannerthatIboughtspecificallyforthatpurpose.Q.Andthesethingsarehowaretheykept?Justonpaper?A.No.No,theyarenotkeptonpaperatall.Actually,theyarekeptondisc,inabackupdisc,andonaDVDorCDdisc,andinmyharddrive.SoIhavethreeorfourplaces.Q.SowehaveA.Theyarenotinthecloud.Q.Theyarenotinthecloud.Okay.A.Thatistooaerospaceforme.Q.Ican'tbelievethat.NottooA.IhavetokeepmyfeetQ.NottootechnicalforBobHuff.Ican'tbelieveit.

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A.It'sjustIwanttokeepmyfeetontheground.Q.Iwanttoaskyouaboutthelocalpeople,andthefamousartistswehaven'ttalkedaboutthisthatyouadmire,thatyouknew,theconversationsyouhavehadwithyourcolleaguesandyourequalsifthereareany.A.Well,yes,obviously,thereare.Q.Imean,whenyouwereastudent,theremusthavebeenbesidesManetorMonet.Whoisityouliked?Monet.A.WhenIwasastudent,Iwasastudent.SoIwouldjustabsorbasmuchasIcould.Thingsthatstandout.TherewasaandIreadaboutthisrecentlyinabook.IthinkitwastheConferenceBook,WithoutWallsorsomething,butBobRauschenbergdidaseriesofetchingsonDante'sInferno,andtheywereverysmall,youknow,about,Idon'tknow,tenby[X]maybe,probablynoteventhatbig.AndwhenIwasattheUniversityofSouthFlorida,wehadanexhibitionofthosepieces,andtheywereincredible.Q.Washeworkingoutthere,attheA.No.Q.No,hewasn't.

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A.Hehadn'tgottendownthereyet,andtheywerejustincredible.AndIwentbackeverydayandlookedatthem.EventhoughIhelpedhangthemandhadanintimaterelationshipwiththemthatway,Iwouldgobackeverydayandlookatthem.SoIwouldsaythatwasimportant.ThereweresomethingshappeninginEnglandthatwerekindofinterestingtomeatthattimetoo.AllenJonesdidsomeveryinterestingprovocativepieces,andhewasavisitingartistattheUniversityofSouthFloridawhileIwaswell,notwhileIwasthere.TheyearthatIleft,hecame,andImethimdownhereandspentsometimewithhimupthere.Sothatthosethingswereimportanttome.Butalotofitwasjustspentabsorbing,youknow.Idon'tthinkIhaveevergottenovertheMonet.IwouldgoseetheQ.Didyoutravelanywhereatthattime?Imean,didyougotoNewYork,Washington?A.Actually,Ihadneverbeenoutofwell,otherthantogotoMichiganandWashingtonacoupleoftimes,IhadneverbeenoutofDunedin.SoQ.SoyouneverwereattheDetroitInstituteofSaintedmemory?

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A.No,no,no.Actually,whenIwenttoelementaryschool,wedidayearlytrip.Theyusedtotakethekidsonatrip,andtheclosestIevergottotheDetroitInstitutewastheautomobilemuseum.Q.ThatmakessenseinDetroit,yes,yeah.A.AndthentheFieldmuseuminChicago,thingslikethat.Ihadbeentothoseplaces.Q.Yeah,yeah,butyouhadn'treallybeentoartmuseums?A.No,no,no.Asamatteroffact,theBelleairMuseum,theGulfCoastArtCenterwasthefirstofficialmuseumtypespaceIhadeverbeenin,andthatprobablyaddedtotheallureoftheMonet.Q.Veryinteresting.SoonceyougotdownhereA.OnceIgotdownhereandrealizedwhatadesertitwas.Q.Well,noworsethanDunedin.A.No,noworsethanDunedin.Actually,probablyonparwithTampaatthetime.OneofthethingsIdiddoisthatwekindofformedFrankWyrobawasthechairofthedepartmentatthetime.Q.Atthecollege?

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A.Yes,hehiredme.Q.BecausethenhewenttoFIU.A.ThenhewenttoFIUandstartedthatprogram.ButoneofthethingsIdidwasIwouldgoontheweekend,IwouldgouptoTampaandbringbackanexhibitionfromtheirpermanentcollection.Sowesetupasmallgalleryspaceinthelibraryandwouldshowthatwork.Becauseatthetime,itwasverydifficultforcollegesanduniversitiestogetexhibitionsbroughtinbecausetheywereviewedasstudentunionsandnotseriousabouthandlingwork.Sogalleriesandmuseumsandplaceslikethatwouldn'ttouchthem.Q.SowhatdidyoubringfromTampa?A.Theyhadquiteanextensivecollectionbecauseitwasallmostlyabstractexpressioniststuff.Q.Itwasfromthemuseum,theTampamuseum?No.A.No.ItwasfromtheUniversityofSouthFlorida.Q.Fromtheuniversity?A.Yeah,andI'mtryingtothink.Q.Becausetheprintthingwasn'tgoingon

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then.A.ThatstartedafterIleft.Q.Iswhenthatstarted,yeah.A.Irebuiltthepressesandthenitstarted.Q.Yeah.Buttheremusthavebeenartthereanyway.A.Therewasart,andIcan'tremember.I'mtryingtorememberthenameofacoupleoftheartiststhatIbroughtdown,butIcan't.SoQ.Soitwasn'tA.Wearegoingtorunoutofthetime.Myexcuse.Q.Soyoustartedthisexchangeveryearlythenwithyourworkatthecollege.Soyoubroughtinyoubroadenedyourwayfromelsewhere.A.ThatwasbeforeRobert[Sindelir]washired,andoneofthedrivingthingsaboutgettingsomebodyhiredtocomeinanddothatwasbecausewehadfacultymemberstryingtoputthisthingtogether,andit'shardtodoandteachclassesanddoeverythingelseyouareresponsibletodo.SoQ.Buttherewerefacultyshows,weren'tthere?A.Therewerefacultyshows,yes,andweused

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tohavefacultyshowsnotsomuchoncampus,butatTheArtCenter.Ithinkthelastoneofthosewasabout[year?]Q.Itwasabiggerspace,butitwasA.Itwasabiggerspace,andthecollegedidn'thavewell,atthattime,theyhadasmallgalleryspace,butbeforethat,theydidn'thaveagalleryspace.Sotheyletususethat.GroverColewasthereatthattime.Q.IknewGroverfromIworkedwithhimatWPBTChannel2.A.Yes,thatisright.Q.Yeah.A.SoQ.Andhemadebeautifulwatercolors.A.Yes,hedid.Ididn'tknowthatuntilverylate.Q.Reallybeautifulwatercolors,yeah.Hewasverytalented.A.ButotherartiststhatImean,Ihadcontactwitheverybodythatwashere.Imean,therewasatimewhenIkneweveryartistthatwasinMiami.JimCouperandIhavebeenfriendssincetheearlydaysofTheArtCenter.

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Q.SodidyouknowRichardMerrickorwashealreadyoverthehill?A.Hewasalreadygone.Iknewofhim.Q.Howaboutthelocalartists?Imean,peoplelikeFredAlbert.A.Ididn'tmeetFreduntilImean,Iknewwhohewas,butIdidn'tmeethimuntilIstartedseeingBarbara.Q.Sohewasherefromthe'50's.A.Yes,Iknow.Iknewwhohewas,buthewasa[Miami]Beachguy.ThatwasanotherQ.Yeah.Thatwassomethingelse.A.Thatwasanotherissue.Q.Okay.Sowhoweretheartistswhoweretryingtomakealivinghereatthetime?A.Well,mostofmycontactswerepeopleinthesystem.Q.Fromtheschool.A.Yeah.And,ofcourse,FIUwasn'there.SoQ.ButUMwasteachingart.A.UMwasteachingart.SoyouhadBillWardwasthere.JeannieWardwasaroundbecauseofBill,or

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inspiteofBill.ChrisFederighiwashereandQ.Well,ChrisgothereaboutA.AcoupleofyearsafterIdid.Q.['2,'3becauseshewas]Iwasingraduateschoolwhenshecame.Yeah.A.Therewasaguy.Ican'trememberhisname.Heworeamotorcyclehelmetwithhornsonit.Q.Thatcouldbealmostanybody.A.Iknow.Hewasarealfunnyguy.Ican'trememberhisname,buthewasattheUM.SowemadecontactwithpeopleattheUMandthenBillMaguireIknewbecausewewereneighborsoutintheRedlands.Sothereisthat,andQ.Sothesewereyourfriendsandyourcolleagues?A.Yes.Q.RichardLeeWilliams.A.RichardLeeWilliams.Q.AndDougMoran,yes.A.Well,thosewerepeopleatthecollege.Q.Yeah.A.Yeah,right.Yeah,atthecollege.MyfirstreallygoodfriendatthecollegewasJerrySchwartzwhowasmarried

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Q.WhowasthenmarriedtoJill.A.JillCannaday,right,andthenhewentoutwest,andlet'ssee.JoeNicastriwasthereforacoupleofyears.RichardWilliamscameandtookDaveReed'splace.Q.IamgettingwhispersaboutRonMillerandElliott.A.Well,yeah,butyeah,Iknow,there'sQ.There'swholehundredsofthem,butwearetryingtofindoutwhatitwaslikeattheverybeginningwhentherewerejustafewofyou.A.Weallfeltlikewewereprettymuchonourown,youknow.Q.Yeah.Itwasn'tacommunity?A.Itwasanditwasn't.Itwaswebandedtogetherwhenweneededto,butforthemostpartwedidn'tsocializemuchtogether.Imean,IhadastepdaughterthatwasayearyoungerthanJimCouper'sdaughter.Sotheyplayedtogether.SothatishowIthatishowthatwholeQ.ThatishowyouknewJim,yeah.A.SoIknewJimandwehaddinnertogetherperiodically,andthingslikethat,butintermsofa

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centralsocialsituation,therewasn'tone.Q.Doyouthinkthereisonetoday?A.Ithinkthereareseveral.Q.Oh,okay.Sotheyaregroups,yes.A.ButIthinkit'sthesamewayitwasbackthen.It'sjustkindoflikethesepocketsofpeoplewhoarefriendsthathangouttogethersometimesandsometimestheydon't,whenevertheyfeellikeit.Andwedothat.Imean,weseepeopleperiodically,butwhenyouarehere,youarehere.Q.Yeah,butit'sverydifferenttodaybecausewedohave,wedohavealotofartistsheretoday.A.Therearealotofartistshere,andtheartiststhatIseeherearenotdrawinglinesbetweenbeingamusician,apainter,asculptor,aperformanceartist.ThesethingsareallbeingQ.Interchanged.A.interchangedandintegrated.SoIthinkit'shealthier.Q.Yeah,andIthinkit'smoreofacommunity.A.WhenIhadsocialinteractionwithartistsotherthanatapartyorsomethinglikethat,itwouldbegoingbacktothecollegeandusingtheprintmakingshopatnightwhentherewasnoclassesorsomething,and

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otherpeoplewouldcomeinanddothesame.Q.Anddotheyeah.A.ThatiswhenIwouldseepeople.Otherwise,Iwouldn'tseeanybody.Q.Okay.Ithinkwearedone.A.Well,Iseeanewcardgoingin.Q.Whatdowehave?BARRONSHERER(producer):Wehavetwominutes.Q.Oh,wehavetwomoreminutes.Sorry.Oh,it'sokay.BARRONSHERER(producer):Youwanttowrapup?A.Okay.Thatisastoppingplace.Q.Yeah,yeah.Ithinkthatisgood.

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