Messerschmidt Interview Transcript · 2009-07-31 · Messerschmidt Interview1 of 2,12_06_2008 -Transcript Messerschmidt Interview 1 of2. 12 06 2008- Transcript LEUT TYSON: Good afternoon,

Messerschmidt Interview 1 of 2,12_06_2008 - Transcript

Messerschmidt Interview 1 of 2. 12 06 2008 - Transcript

LEUT TYSON: Good afternoon, Herr Messerschmidt, my name is Lieutenant Matthew Tyson. I'm here

with Lieutenant Stephen Harper. We're representing Commander Jack Rush, and we're obtaining

evidence on behalf of the Cole Commission into the loss of HMAS Sydney II and the circumstances

surrounding that loss. Thank you for your time this afternoon. We are, of course, it's the 12'h of June

2008, and we're at Kiel in Germany.

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Good afternoon, Herr Messerschmidt, I would like you to welcome you to our

interview. We are here with, my name is Matthew Tyson. I am here with my college Stephen Harper. We

are here on behalf of the Australian Inquiry on behalf of Mr. Jack Rush, and we are here with the Cole

Commission. We would like you to ask you about the loss of HMAS Sydney, and we are here to clarify

these things today. We are in Kiel, and it is the 12'h of June 2008.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes.

LEUT TYSON: And our interpreter is Mr Frank Thomas.

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: With us we have our interpreter Mr Frank Thomas.

LEUT TYSON: Can I show you please sir a copy of the instrument of appointment.

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Can I show you a copy of our instrument of appointment.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Thank you very much.

A. Thanks a lot.

Q. Thank you. Herr Messerschmidt, could you please state your full name.

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Mister...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: My name is Heinz Christoph Messerschmidt. I was born on the_

this is my native town. I joined the German Navy in 1935, and after my first

commando on the mine ship Kiinigin Luise just at the beginning of the war, I was commanded onto the

ship 41, where I was responsible for the mines as a mine warfare officer and at the same time I was

adjutant of the Commander, Capitan Detmers.

A. My name is} sorry; your first name was...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Heinz Christoph Messerschmidt, Christoph with "ch" and "ph".

A. My name is Heinz Christoph Messerschmidt. I was born on the

my home town. In 1935 I joined the army, and I was first on the vessel Kiinigin Luise.

1

that's


MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Well, that was during the war. I joined the Navy on the 25 th of April. I did

the regular officer career and as first lieutenant} moment} as a second lieutenant} I was

commanded onto the mine ship Kiinigin Luise on September 1935 as a mine officer.

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Kiinigin Luise, that was in...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: That was on the 1" of September 1939.

A. OK, in 1935 I joined the Navy, and in 1939 I was commanded to serve on the ship Queen Luise, Kiinigin

Luise, that is the name, and then later in 1940.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, afterwards I was on the ship with the mine warfare commando

(Sperrversuchskommando) and Mine Warfare School at Kiel, which was a training school for

mines, and then, in the beginning if the war, from the mine depot I was deployed as a mine

warfare officer responsible for the mines on the mine ship Kiinigin Luise. On the 1st of January

1940 was posted and became instructor at the mine warfare commando

(Sperrversuchskommando) of the Mine Warfare School at Kiel, a school for the miningbuisness.

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: That was 1941?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: That was 1941, 1" of January, and then on the 1" of May 1940 in Hamburg

I was posted to the Deutsche Werft Finkenwerder onto the builder instruction ship 41.

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Then first you were instructor in 1941, and posed to the Kiinigin Luise in 1940?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: 39 on the die Kiini-, at the beginning of war, that is the 1st of September,

and there i was until the 1st of January 1940.

A. [GERMAN]: That was a little bit confusing, now we have to get this very clearly. [ENGLISH]: There was

a bit of confusion here, just for, to make this clear with the dates. So, in 1935, you joined the

Navy, that is correct. Then in 1939 you became a mine officer, or you started your career as a

mine officer on the ship IIK6nigin Luisell.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: And also as an adjudant.

A. Also as an adjutant. And then later in 1940 you became a teacher or instructor for other people to

learn about mines?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Especially for young officers.

A. Especially for young officers. And then in 1941?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No.

A.1940?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, 1" May of 1940.

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A. You became a member of what? What did you become in 1940?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Of the ship 41.

A. Oh, OK. In 1940 you became a member, a crew member of the ship 41 which is the Kormoran.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, as a mine officer and adjutant.

A. As a mine officer and adjutant on the Kormoran.

LEUT TYSON: And ship 41 of course was named Kormoran by Captain Detmers. Now what were your

duties/ sir} on the Kormoran?

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: What were your...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: My duty was to reconstruct the structure of the merchant ship Steiermark

into a warship, and that was the same duty which I had in the beginning of the war on the

Konigin Luise. The Konigin Luise was a civil ship with a civil crew complement. There also was the

transformation into a war ship, and coincidently, my commander on the Konigin Luise, Captian

Forster, and he called me in Kiel "Messerschmidt, I am the first officer on ship 41, and you are

posted to come here. I immediately recommended you to Detmers as the adjudant."

A. OK, one of my duties was to change the Steiermark, which was the former name of the Kormoran and

was just a merchant ship, to change this ship into a war ship. The same task I had already on the

ship Queen Luise, which was also a civil ship before and was changed into a war ship. During this

time I met} Mr Forster} who was...

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Cap-, Lieutenant Commander Forster.

A. Lieutenant Commander Forster.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: First Officer.

A. Who was the First Officer on the Queen Luise, and ...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Captain, commanding officer on the Konigin Luise, and first officer Schiff

41.

A. OK, he was the comm-, okay, and first officer on ship 41, which, on which Captain Detmers was the

Captain obviously, and he told immediately Captain Detmers to make me, Mr Messerschmidt, as

his, to make me his adjutant also.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: That's correct.

LEUT TYSON: And as Captain Detmer's adjutant, what did you do in that role?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: It was very late that Captain Detmers came to us from a destroyer. Until

then Forster was responsible for the entire processing of the correspondence, instruction,

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inquires, well, the duty of an adjutant basically was to do everything a secretary has to do. I had

to make sure that the shipyard conducted all the requests we had as a warship in our interest

and together with the construction management.

A. What was later the destroyer, before that was, Mr Forster was the first on the destroyer, and...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, not Mr. Forster was destroyer that was Captain Detmers.

A. Captain Detmers.


A. It was Captain Detmers who was the captain of the destroyer and Mr Forster as his adjutant at this

time, all his duties were to fulfil all the orders and to tell the yard all the requirements we had

for changing the civil ship or the merchant ship into a war ship, to fulfil these requirements we

had.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: To build up the structure of a war ship.

LEUT TYSON: Can you describe some of the changes that you made to Steiermark to turn her into a war

ship?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Oh, that's a technical question. This is done by the yard, Deutsche Werft

Finkenwerder. [GERMAN]: And I was supposed to keep the connection, how this issue

processes, how the appointments came. I had to make sure that the ship's complement was

composed. They were composed by another officer in Wilhelmshaven. Everything later, we were

practically in civil on board because it was a secret command, very unusual in war. Well, you

have to imagine, a merchant cruiser is run by a shipping company. A war ship has high

commanders, who make sure that whatever they want, what happens to the ship is being

undertaken, and all these written demands and explanations and confirmations were basically

my task - so to say - as a secretary.

A. Well, the ship was built by the Shipyard Deutsche Werll and it was my duty to get the crew together,

at one point, the crew was put together in Wilhelmshaven, and then also to do all the

scheduling, the timetable, to make more or less the organisation of change, changing this ship to

a war ship. We all had to work while we were at this yard in Wilhelmshaven, we were wearing

our civil clothes which was very strange for us/ because we were of course soldiers} because/ but

as it was such a secret mission we were on l we had to wear our usual clothes. Then} the

difference between of course, it was a strange situation also for the yard, which was a civil yard,

and there're other structures are working than for example on a war ship, where you have a

certain chain of command which is completely different, to the chain, or there is no chain of

command on a civil merchant ship.

LEUT TYSON: Did you see a camouflage being created for the gun positions on the conversion of

Steiermark to Kormoran?

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LEUT TYSON: Who was responsible for the design of the camouflage? Or whose idea was it and how was

it done?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: There was a special department in Berlin of the Navy. Technicians who are

responsible for the armament of that ship and the camouflage, too. But Captain Detmers had

special wishes in relation to the camouflage. It was very, very important for him that it suits him

and not the paper men in Berlin.

LEUT TYSON: I'd like to show you some pictures of camouflage and some other raiders a bit later and ask

your comments on that.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, yes, yes.

LEUT TYSON: Now when Kormoran sailed, you were also, apart from being the Adjutant, you were also

the mine officer. Is that correct?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes mhm.

LEUT TYSON: And what were your duties as the mine officer?

ROI.010.0067_R

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: This personnel who are responsible to fit the mines clear, to be thrown

overboard. There's a special list personnel and I had to do everything if Captain Detmers said:

"Next week we are going to, lay mines", to prepare the mines, that they go overboard and they

are of correct function.

LEUT TYSON: And in addition to that, you were in charge of a division of seamen? Is that correct?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Not seamen, all the specialist. We had four divisions, two for the seamen,

one for the engineers party, and the last are all the mechanics, the wireless operators and...

LEUT TYSON: And the other, divisional commanders were Skeries and von Giisseln?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, that's correct.

LEUT TYSON: And Mitzlaff?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Mitzlaff is engineer.

LEUT TYSON: Now, and you were aboard Kormoran from the time she sailed from Kiel on this voyage?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, from Gotenhafen. We left Kiel in October.

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: But you were on the Kormoran when you left Kiel.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, I was there from the very beginning in the shipyard and I was on the

first test drives. Then we drove through the canal in Kiel, and I took over the mines and I got

5


munitions and supplies. In October we drove from Kiel to Gotenhafen and stayed there until the

departure.

A. I was part of the first testing period also and then... and how, when the Kormoran was converted, and

then we started from Kiel and went to Gotenhafen.

LEUT TYSON: And can you just explain in the chain of command on the Kormoran? Where did you stand

in the chain of command?

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Could you explain me in which position you were in the chain of command on

the Kormoran?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: I was on par with the officers for artillery and torpedoes for the mines, for

these three weapons which we had on board. Then I was adjutant, and I became division officer

when Captain von Malapert was displaced as a radio officer and I took over the division.

A. I was at the same level, at the same rank as the torpedo, the artillery and the mining officers, as I was a

mining officer.

LEUT TYSON: So that was Greter, Skeries?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Correct. Greter, Skeries and myself.

INTERPRETER [ENGLISH]: And then just later when, officer Matla-

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Von Malapert.

INTERPRETER [ENGLISH]: Von Malapert, when he left, I was also made division officer because I overtook

also his division.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: He was responsible for the whole part of wireless.

LEUT TYSON: Now one of the things that Kormoran did was adopt disguises as other vessels? Is that right?

INTERPRETER [ENGLISH]: One, can you just repeat the question?

LEUT TYSON: Yes. Kormoran in the course of her sailing adopted disguises as other vessels.

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: During the journey Kormoran took over, or disguised as other ships?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, yes.

LEUT TYSON: Now can I take you please to October/November 1941. Was Kormoran in a disguise at that

time?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: After Kulmerland had met us in October we became Straat Malakka. Until

then we had a disguise which was Detmers' idea. It did not come from the shipyards, we weren't

a Molotow as a Russian, we also were not a Japanese, he wanted to be a dark ship. So during the

6


meeting with Kulmerland he decided, after Captain Kulmerland told him what could look like

that, it became his idea to become Straat Malakka. Starting from the 24 th of October 1940 we

were Straat Malakka.

A. This goes back, of course, that was the disguise we had goes back to an idea of Detmers' that was not

idea of the yard or anybody else. Because Detmers wanted to have a dark ship. He didn't want

to have Japanese or anything like that, he wanted to have a dark ship, so when we met with

Kulmerland, the captain of Kulmerland made some propositions to Detmers which ship we could

be and then from 24 th October of 1940 we were Straat Malakka.


LEUT TYSON: And can you explain please, what changes did you make to look like Straat Malakka?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, nothing, only the colours. A dark ship and I think brown funnel.

LEUT TYSON: So the funnel was painted brown?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, yes.

M LEUT TYSON: And the ship, the hull, was painted black?


LEUT TYSON: You made no changes to the masts?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No. No.

LEUT TYSON: No carpentry or welding changes?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, no, no. Because the experience was that when we are shooting, all that

material broke together, but nothing worth.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah. And had you seen pictures of Straat Malakka anywhere, or where did you get

knowledge of Straat Malakka?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: That was the business of the Commander, I had nothing to do with that. It

was his idea, and he accomplished it. He was not satisfied with the propositional disguises from

the shipyard and from the Navy in Berlin, as he was very independent in all things. He was his

own master, his own superior, and whatever he did, he did it right. And he took off the

lightweight Japanese disguises, and he never had these institutions to build walls or a second

funnel. All of that falls apart when you shoot. He said, "The ship is the best it is."And that was

true in regards to Straat Malakka.

A. OK, Mr Detmers, that was not my, not my task, it was completely up to Mr Detmers, and it was also his

opinion, his idea, I hadn't seen any pictures of Straat Malakka, therefore, and it was Mr Detmers

own idea to have a camouflage like Straat Malakka, because he was not satisfied with the

7


prepositions that the Navy headquarters made to him nor the yard, because all they had was

light Japanese ships, and he wanted to have a dark ship. Also he was not fond of putting fake

funnels or walls somewhere, because what happened when we shot, all these things were

destroyed immediately. So that's why Mr Detmers said: "Leave the ship as it is, it's the best we

just paint it dark, and that's it".

LEUT TYSON: But he didn't consult any encyclopaedias about ships or books about merchant ships in, in

coming to the Straat Malakka design or the features?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Maybe. These merchant ships are part of our literature.

LEUT TYSON: So that was available on the Kormoran? Now, did you report back to German Intelligence or

Kriegsmarine Headquarters about the disguise that was being used?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, we only had a connection with Berlin, the Naval War Administration, by

short signal, only letters, which have a certain meaning, because we didn't want to use wireless

because we could be found. [GERMAN] The only connection we always had was with the ships

that went to Germany. They got all the information, but besides that there was no connection to

Berlin. Berlin called us and asked us one certain thing, which we could answer with a short

signal. We simply transmitted very little.

A. We had very few wireless communication, we just had short signals, just a few letters always. If you

want to have information, we gave, this was given to Berlin or to the headquarters via other

ships we met on our way, that's how we passed on information to the headquarters in Berlin, or

another possibility was, that Berlin asked us something and we, our answers was just with short

signals, just a couple of letters were the answer, and all this happened because we didn't want

to use our wireless in order not to be found by devices that detect wireless communication.

LEUT HARPER: Herr Messerschmidt, this is Lieutenant Harper speaking. Could you communicate from

Kormoran using WT, wireless telegraphy, from Kormoran?


LEUT HARPER: You couldn't. HF wouldn't send a signal that would be picked up in Berlin?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Only the short signals.

LEUT HARPER: Right. But you could use a short signal to signal Berlin and Berlin could signal Kormoran.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: In full text, Berlin to us in full text, and we with short signals.

LEUT HARPER: Understand. How often did Berlin give you operational orders by WT?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Well, we didn't get any special instructions from Berlin. For example, we

got the first operation field. That was the area on the narrows between the northeast distance

of South America and Europe. In this narrows we met the most ships and sent them home as

8


letters. For instance it would be said: nyou can now South Atlanticll} or {'You can now Western

Indian Ocean". Independently from that the Commander could say: "I feel like there is nothing

going on on this route. I'm now going to another route, for instance I'm not going to the Gulf of

Bengal but into the area of the East Coast or Madagascar." He could choose himself and gave

reason for that. But these messages only came when a supply ship got our mail. They also got

the war diary, which I and Detmers wrote. Well war - the bad thing only is, many ships, supply

ships, were sunk by us.

A. What happened was we got full text messages from Berlin telling us about the operational area, where

we should operate. This would be for example telling us where we started, also that was the

region that we in the North Eastern corner of South America and Europe. That's also where we

had, where we found most of the ships and which we sank or we sent them home under price

law. But apart from that, our commander could always tell: "No we don't find enough ship here,

weIll go to another regionll} for example he could saYI {(we go to the Indian Ocean/ or we don1t

find enough in the Bengaline Sea, let's go to Madagascar". And, but, and the only way how we

could communicate or send information, also the log book of the war logbook we had on board,

to send it back home, was by meeting other ships. Unfortunately, many of these ships were

sunk.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Most of them.

LEUT HARPER: Right. Just one final question, before we move on to other topics. Just generally in your

WT room, how many WT operators did you have? How many people worked in the, in the

signal's WT room?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Thirty.

LEUT HARPER: Thirty?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yeah, a lot. And the, first radio transmission officer (Oberfunkmeister), is

the warrant officer, non-commissioned officer, he was very capable man, and they did a lot.

LEUT HARPER: Did they do signals and intelligence work as well?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yeah.

LEUT HARPER: Direction finding?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: I don't know. We got information from Germany, anything which we should

know. For instance, we never got news from Berlin that the attack on Russia stood before. They

only informed us nothing about this and then we got the 20 th of June 1941 and then the attack

on Russia began, and Captain Detmers was very, very angry about Berlin that they give us lines,

and he was the man who said: "This is no good because we have two fronts now." He could say

it as the commander of Kormoran, and we had a very free way to talk, we are not against the

men in Berlin but we had our own meaning, our own opinion, and you know that we were right.

9

ROI.010.007LR


LEUT TYSON: So, to go to the encounter with Sydney in November 1941, when was the last time before

that encounter when you would have received orders from Berlin? Would it have been a week

before, a day before, a month before, several months before?

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Before the encounter with the Sydney, when was the last time you received

orders from Berlin? Was that a month before, a week, or a day?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: We actually did not receive any orders. Only the Commander himself was,

before we left Gotenhafen, individually ordered to Berlin and he was told "This is the rough

programme you get. When you are out there are two important things to do: Never get involved

with any war ships, and always make sure that not the sinking individual ships is the most

important thing. It is more important that your appearance disturbs the trade and induces the

enemy to take measures." The duration of the operation for a long time is more important than

sinking tonnage. And it is very bad to get involved with war ships.

A. In fact, we did not receive any orders. What happened before we left Gotenhafen our commander, Mr

Detmers in this case, was ordered to come to Berlin where we, where he received orders. And

they were just general guidelines. They there were two general guidelines: never to get engaged

with a war ship, that was number one, the second one was not to sink other ships. But the main

guideline was to destroy or disturb the traffic the trade of the others in order to keep them busy

protecting their trade routes, and was rather to stay on sea for a very long time, for a long, very

long period rather than sinking other ships. That was our main goal.

CHRISTOPH MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: And avoid meeting.

LEUT TYSON: OK. What I suppose rather than just an operational order, what about a communication

from Berlin to the ship, when was the last communication from Berlin to the ship?

LEUT HARPER: As opposed to, forget orders, did Berlin provide updates, operational intelligence briefs,

any other information to Kormoran, and if so, when was that done, before the engagement with

Sydney? As opposed to orders.

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Now this is not about orders but about when the last information or most

recent news came from Berlin, may it be intelligence briefs, information about other ships and

so on? When was the last ...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: They came on a regular basis. For instance I had the duty... on a regularly

basis the radio operators were receiving the positions of war ships in the operational area we

were in. For instance we got to know where we were, where the Cornwall was making a

protection and so on. But this is the open traffic, the information which we received from

Berlin. One example how this works was the supply through the ship Kulmerland from Japan.

This was organized from Berlin, and there was a series of meeting points which were arranged

in the maps. And for instance it could be said "Stiefmuetterchen" - "pansy" - with the

geographical length and width. It then was "point pansy, from to", a period of time. With

10


Kulmerland for instance we had a certain day in October. But we knew that we wouldn't reach

Kulmerland on the meeting day and then we were not allowed to come in the time between.

We could only come the next day at 12am. There always were many tolerances with the

Kulmerland, it was not always ordered "At this time you have to be here", but there always were

possibilities.

LEUT HARPER: Herr Messerschmidt, I think our, our interpreter whilst he is very, very good, he is, I

suspect, struggling to, to keep up. If you could kindly just break the sentences down a bit, stop

for a minute, and we'll try and let the interpreter interpret. Otherwise he's gonna have a very

difficult time.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Of course.

A. OK if I'll try to get this now together. Well, we were kept informed regularly on a regular basis about

the positions of other war ships, for example, we knew where the Cornwall was, that was told

us, which was part of the open traffic with Berlin. For example, how it was organised that we

met Kulmerland, it was organised via Japan, and so we met, we had certain meeting points that

were planned before, for example, we meet on that day or, from that time to that time, this

longitude and this latitude as our meeting point. But then, if we, for example, when we met the

Kulmerland in October, we knew that we wouldn't be there on time, but this would also mean

we couldn't just be there, like, let's say two or three hours later. But we would come back the

next day the same, exact time. Anyway, altogether there were left certain amount of freedom

how to meet for this, how to meet, yeah.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: And there was a little incident: because we didn't come at the same day,

we came the next day and showed the Kulmerland, which was in Japan, a picture of the Kieler

Woche. Kormoranls crew lined up and IIhurraYI hurraYI hurrayll} and I was sent over there as the

adjudant to make the preparations for the supplies of the next days. I went over on board of the

Kulmerland, and I was hugged by Captain Pschuppner. He took his cap off and said: "My dear

Lord, we almost sank ourselves." The reason was that the day before there had been an English

ship there which they didn't know. And they said it couldn't have been the 5teiermark, it looks

different. But they didn't do anything. They didn't do anything, they just stayed there. 50 they

thought it was an English armed merchant cruiser, and then they would have the duty to scuttle

themselves. And when I came they were so happy, that the other...

A. Well, this happened as I said before. We came a day late to our meeting with Kulmerland, and this was

organised from Japan. And anyway, on our meeting, we showed them pictures of the race week

in Kiel, and I was the adjutant I was responsible for preparing the supply for the next couple of

months which Kulmerland was supposed to give us, and then, what happened was, the day

before, Kulmerland was already there at our meeting point, but there was another ship from the

UK, a British ship. And they had stopped at the same position. And then, Kulmerland was

obviously very suspicious what this could be, and because this other ship didn't do anything, it

stopped and didn't move, they thought it was a British raider, and in such case, it was the task of

11


the Kulmerland to scuttle itself, which they didn't do. So they were very happy the next day to

meet us and find out that we came, they were very happy.

LEUT TYSON: So after the meeting with the Kulmerland, you didn't receive any communications from

Berlin to you?


LEUT TYSON What about the other direction? How frequently, you talked earlier, you said you made,

Kormoran made very few communications back to Berlin. After the meeting with the

Kulmerland, and before the encounter with Sydney, how often, if any, did Kormoran radio or

send a message back to Berlin?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No. All the records and documents we wanted to deliver we gave to the

Kulmerland. Kulmerland got safely to Yokohama, and from there they knew everything they

needed. We had sent the war diary, we had everything in there, and the Commander had also

stated his intention: "I want to lay mines somewhere, because I finally want to get ridd of them,

and then we can go to the Pacific fully-armed.", because there was nothing to find in the West,

in the Indean Ocean.

A. What happened, we gave all our documents, we gave to Kulmerland, and which, the Kulmerland,

happily made it to Yokohama, and that's also where our log book was then at the end. And

that's also how the Commander, no, in this log, the Commander told the responsible people in

Yokohama that he wanted to get rid of all the mines, and that he wanted to place the mines

somewhere, and then he wanted to go to the Pacific, as was obvious that we were not be able

to find many ships in the Indian Ocean.

LEUT TYSON: So, in October/November 1941, at that time, what was Kormoran's mission? What was she

doing off the Western Australian coast?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Hm. That's a good question. You know, Captain Detmers was a very, very

introverted man. He had no, he was always thinking and planning, and when he was came to a

decision, he told the first officer, he told me what he is going to do. And he said, for instance, I

knew that the, Berlin wanted that we, after nearly ten months, we found a place where to place

our mines. And he was not very fond of mines, he did not want them, and he wrote in his book,

he tried to throw mines in the harbour of Carnarvon, and when you know Carnarvon to that

time, it was not worth lay mining, much more was good mine for Fremantle for instance. It was

obvious that he tried to find out maybe one neutral ship on the West coast, that we were nearly

Carnarvon, about 150 miles, it looked like that he was planning to throw mines, but I was not

informed. But surely you may go find the place, go westward, and then "OK, Messerschmidt, we

are planning throwing mines for instance in Carnarvon". But the better throwing mine is

Calcutta, somewhere in the Golf of Bengal. Maybe that was his plan but he never told anybody.

12


LEUT TYSON: It's, sometimes it's been suggested, on some accounts that, on the afternoon of 19

November 1941 just before the unidentified vessel was seen. I think Jorgensen, and also von

Gosseln in his 1970 article, they suggest that Kormoran actually was about to lay mines just

before Sydney was sighted. Do you have any comment on that? Is that correct? Is that wrong?

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Do you want me to translate?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: It cannot be correct because we had trouble with the mines. We had

trouble in the line when we were going to throw the mines in West Indian, Madras somewhere.

There's a safety system when you throw the mine that the mine don't function when thrown

down on the bottom. There's the, buoyancy of the body of mines?

A. The, what makes the mine swim...

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: ...and when the force to... This force is used to be for about 20 minutes, and

after 20 minutes the mine is sharp. They are the caps you know, but before this happens, there

is the "Salzstucklosevorrichtung", a piece of salt, which is solved by the water, and then it's

sharp. And this salt, during all the time we are on sea, are melted away, and we had to pro-, to

experiment with some other material, sugar was good for that.

LEUT TYSON: Sugar?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Sugar. But we need time to have sugar for that. But that doesn't mean, any

well, I'd say under Detmers I had a very bad position as mine officer.

LEUT TYSON: Because he wasn't a fan of mines?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, he was a destroyer man. He said throwing mines is devil's thing.

LEUT TYSON: Can I turn now to another topic please? I want to ask you a bit about camouflage of the

weapon systems on Kormoran? Now of course there were different types of guns, there were 15

cm guns, the 37 millimetre anti-tank gun, and the 20 cm cannons, as well as torpedoes. Can you

please explain what camouflage systems were used for the 15 cm guns?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Well, there were two 15 cm guns front and aft. There was a flap which had

a pivot point and a heavyweight against it. And when it was said "Drop Camouflage", one only

needed little pressure and the flap opened and the gun was there. That was gun no. 1, 2, 3,4,5

and 6, aft and in front. In between we had two hatches. Yes. Well, these are the ones where the

15cm is, 1 to 6. There is the front, one two, these are the things, they opened like this.

A. OK, maybe I just translate this? For the 15 cm guns, we used claps, they were pieces of metal, and you

could swing them back because they had a counterweight on the other side. So it was very easy

to swing the whole apparatus forward and backward where the camouflage for up and down, so

we could use the gun. And we had, yeah, two 15 cm guns at the bow and two at the stern? OK?

13


LEUT TYSON: 'Cause, is this correct that the camouflage on the 15 cm guns was different whether the

guns were at the aft and forward position, as opposed to the 15 cm guns amid ships?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes. The amid ships had - as I said - hatches. That was the hatch gun,

which you had asked me about. So that was like a hatchway, and in this hatchway - it was not a

real one - it had hatches on the side, which were driven downwards with a hydraulic system.

They come down very quickly, and above the gun could turn around once and it had the biggest

range.

A. OK, they were like hatches or skylights, of course there weren't any, and that's how and they were

operated with using hydraulic systems so they could made move, be put into action very quickly,

and that's how we, and they could be turned around also.

LEUT TYSON: Can I show you please a photograph in a book "German raiders" in the middle of that page,

on page 55.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: That's Kormoran. No, Atlantis. That is ...

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: That is Atlantic.

LEUT TYSON: Is that similar to the camouflage system on Kormoran?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, that's too primitive, our better. It's a very old ship, Captain Brogge. And

we had to serve for submarines and there's a story to tell. Submarine we had filled up and say

goodbye they'd to dive and him out and the captain of the submarine said on my captain "Can

you do that?" and then Detmers said "Drop Camouflage!". And said to the youth "Can do you,

can you do that?" There were shocked ... the entire wall was smooth and then - "wham" - the

guns were there.

A. Yeah, it was a seamless wall, altogether there were no seems to be seen and just within seconds the

gun was there.

LEUT HARPER: Was this system of hydraulics and what I would call counter-levered boards. So you have

hydraulics and they are all counter-levered so when you pull here, you quickly...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, the hatch went up like that, and normally it is covered with a canvas.

Before the battle we had to take off this canvas, because after all it was not a hatch. Then this

wall on the port and the starboard side goes down, and above, this ceiling is, if you look at it

from above, you see a round top, which is the turret gun, which moves underneath. And the

dropping of the camouflage was just a matter of seconds. That thing went down, just like the

dropping of the coulisse on that side, which also was a matter of seconds in the front and back.

It was a brilliant construction made by the shipyard.

14

ROI.010.00n_R


INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Maybe we need to repeat this back. Could we repeat this, in smaller steps so I

can translate it better? It was a little bit much at once. Well, the first thing again. The hatch on

the wall ... how did this work again?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: That is basically a wall which is not static but movable. It is moved by

hydraulics, with oil hydraulics. You press a button, and then the pump presses and goes down.

That was a matter of seconds.

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: So then the wall is down, and behind it there were the guns.


INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: But they were still covered by a canvas.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, normally, so it looks like a hatch of a ship.

A. OK, it was, they were hidden behind walls, these walls, they were not fixed. They could be moved with

a hydraulic system that would lower them within seconds. And behind this they were the, there

were the turrets and they were covered with a canvas so they would look like a hatch from the

top.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Good. Yeah.

LEUT TYSON: So if Kormoran were in battle stations, and the disguise, the camouflage is up, and then the

order comes to fire the gun, how long would it take from the order before the shell comes out of

the 15 cm gun?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH] Six seconds. Because we trained every week. Every week, had training,

battle training, and Captain Detmers had to persuade himself that everything, he took time for

that. And he asked everybody, the man on the machine gun, what do you have to do when the

ship, the orders, said, no problems, then we have to stop merchant ships. But he always had a

feeling, some day there will come a ship of the great companies. He told us on his birthday in

August when he meant, when we meet someone, because the fate of the raider Penguin and

the cruiser Cornwall. He knew exactly what will happen when he is not prepared. He only tried

to have the best of camouflage and the best of reaction when a battle ship was stopping. But he

never expected what Sydney done.

LEUT TYSON: What about the, the 37 Millimetre anti-tank gun? What was the camouflage like on that

gun? Was it a different type of camouflage?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No. The 3.7 cm guns, we didn't get any from the German Navy, they had

none. Their own shipi so Lieutenant Skeries} is an East Prussian/ special. And when we are in

Gotenhafen. He saw the artillery depot, and had a drink with them and he: "Don't we have any

anti aircraft?/! {(Yes/ we have./! They had three seven on wheels for the armYI you see. I say

"Okay, we get two one, okay. And do you have ammunition? How much? 10,000, you get

15


10,000. Have a drink!" [GERMAN] And next day, we said to Captain Detmers: "Captain, we have

three seven." "Why is that?" "I have East Prussians here, they will give them to me. We only

have to receipt it." [ENGLISH] And we were transformed with special armament to be used as

shot, not against airplanes, just by the machine gun. And that on 900 metre and they have

ammunition that's called spear. It's like water tube you see, you don't have to, it's was horribly.

And we had nothing, but we got one from the army and turned it into guns for us. They were

placed on the starboard and port bridge, just behind the bridge.

LEUT TYSON: Are you able to indicate on the diagram please the position?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, here.

LEUT HARPER: Is that on bridge deck?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes. Well, you only had to have the flaps down, and then they are free.

That is, they are very...

A. You just had a clap to open.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: ... that was no problem at all.

LEUT TYSON: So there was camouflage or no camouflage?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, No. And the 2 em barrels they came from down by hydraulic.

A. There was just a flap, sorry, a flap to open them.

LEUT TYSON: Now if Kormoran is at battle stations, where is that gun? Is it up from the hydraulic, or is it

still down? If, if the gun crew of the 37 millimetre are at battle stations, you talk about the

hydraulic system, did the gun then have to be raised, or was it already raised?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Do you speak from the 15 em? Or do you from the 3.77

LEUT TYSON: 3.7 at the moment.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, she's fixed.

LEUT TYSON Fixed?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Not, just fixed.

LEUT HARPER: Behind the bridge.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes.

LEUT TYSON OK, so how many seconds, say, if the order comes, for that gun to fire, how long would it

take from the order till when a shell is fired? Seconds?

16


MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Question of seconds.

LEUT TYSON: Now and you talked just then about the hydraulic hoists for the 15 cm guns. How long

would that take to raise the gun?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: It is, they are clear for firing within six seconds.

LEUT TYSON: So that includes everything?


LEUT TYSON: And where does the ammunition come for the 15 cm guns?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: In some ammunition rooms. And we had people on board just to fadding

the, ammunition to the gun.

LEUT TYSON: You talked about machine guns. When you say machine guns is that the same as the 20 cm

cannon, or is that different?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, there's a difference. The 3.7 is anti aircraft, and the double 2 cm is a...

LEUT TYSON: Is a machine gun? You'd called that.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: A machine gun, MG.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah, were, were they in any way camouflaged?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, they come from the deck, "jjjt", hydraulics.

LEUT TYSON: And how long does that take for them to come up?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Seconds.

LEUT TYSON: Seconds.

A. I think there was just a small mistake before. The 15 cm guns are not operated by hydraulic systems to

come up, they're fixed, aren't they? Just the camouflage system was moved by hydraulics.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: The guns are fixed, and the camouflage is working very quickly. And that is

trained every week.

LEUT TYSON: Now, one of the other interesting topics about Kormoran's weapons are the different types

of torpedoes. Can you explain please, as we understand it, there's both an underwater torpedo

system, and a deck-mounted torpedo system.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, yes.

LEUT TYSON: Can you please explain the differences between them.

17

ROI.010.0080_R


MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: The underwater torpedoes, they are coming from the First World War. The

old battle ships, they had underwater torpedoes, they are fixed, and you can only use them by

steering the correct course. And Captain Detmers made a training in Gotenhafen. He just tried

how to be stopped by a destroyer. And then he, a friend of him was captain of one of our

destroyers, and he spoke out: nyou stop us please, we make a manoeuvrell. And so did we, and

he stopped us and we went little bit, then we fired a torpedo from the underwater but it was a

special torpedo which had no ammunition, only has a light. So the torpedo just came over and

under the ship. And after the war, I met a friend of mine who was on that destroyer, and he said

to us: "Uns ging der Arsch mit Grundeis" [Colloquial expression meaning someone is terribly

scared]. Also, you only can use it by ... the batteries on board, the double batteries, were not

electric torpedoes; they were driven by air, pressed air. It's very unusual, torpedo of the last

war.

LEUT TYSON: So, the underwater torpedoes, these are air-compression driven?


LEUT TYSON: So, does that mean, when it fires, there's a big bubble of air that comes up?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Maybe. I only saw one, yes, it's a bubble, but you, I talked to Greter often

of it. And maybe he shot one, after the, the fight ended, because he didn't want that the fire

would come to those torpedoes, so he shot them off to make us free from this, not a special

aim. I asked him, "Did you want to, to shoot a torpedo on the Sydney?" "No, no, I would get

loose of if', lose that.

LEUT TYSON: So, did he say that he did not fire an underwater torpedo at Sydney during the attack?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, we did not fire any underwater torpedos - I asked Greter, and he

said :"No, only after the battle I triggered these things so we could get rid of them, and I told that

to the Commander.1!

A. No, I spoke to Mr Greter about it and he told me: "No, I have not fired any torpedo during the battle.

Only after the battle, I fired a torpedo in order to get rid of it so it wouldn't explode."

LEUT HARPER: That's underwater torpedo.

A. The underwater torpedo.

LEUT TYSON: Do you know, Herr Messerschmidt, the size of the warhead in the any of Kormoran's

torpedoes?

LEUT HARPER: Or what so-, what type of torpedo? Do you have any idea?

LEUT TYSON: Is it a G7 or a G... ?

18


MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: G7A, G7A, old torpedo, not magnetic, like the submarines have, on travel in

the first part of the war. Magnetic. Torpedo.

LEUT HARPER: Were the torpedoes on Kormoran, were they only German torpedoes? You didn't have

Japanese torpedoes?


LEUT HARPER: Nothing. German torpedoes only.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: We got them in Kiel. I know it.

LEUT TYSON: Did Kormoran have any armour? Armour plating at all anywhere or?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: What?

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Was there any kind of protection, balustrade... armour?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, no. The ship just was as it was.

A. No, the ship was just like as it was.

LEUT TYSON: You talked a bit about, training and exercises and firing the guns, now, you say that the guns

were exercised. Was it once a week? Or how frequently was it?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Once a week.

LEUT TYSON: Once a week. Did you use live ammunition?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, only exercise without ammunition. Well, there were ... [ENGLISH] youhave training ammunition just to do the loading, you see. To do it very quickly and that...

LEUT TYSON: Yeah. Can I just show you a picture please? Do you, do you recognize that, what's in that

picture?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No. What is it?

LEUT TYSON: We don't know. But we're wondering whether it was a target.

LEUT HARPER: Practice target.

LEUT TYSON: A practice target for guns that Kormoran might have used.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Is this a boat of Kormoran?

LEUT TYSON: No, that's a boat from Sydney. In October 1941, Captain Burnett came across that device.And it was unknown. So, a thought might be that it might have been used by Kormoran fortarget practice.

19

ROI.010.008LR


INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Captain Burnett found this object or picture in October '41, and that's why,

he didn't know where it came from, which is why we thought perhaps it came somewhere from theKormoran ...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, no...

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: ... and that it was a practice target, a target object.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: ... or not, maybe it was made as a joke, when he came, well he knew, I

don't know. Someone from the crew said, he can only those ... no. No, I don't know, it doesn'thave anything to do with the Kormoran. He came from completely different corners, he camefrom the very north, from Singapore, and we came from the west. Now, just unfortunately we

had met each other on that day.

A. No, I don't know it. It's got nothing to do with Kormoran. He came from the North, and we came fromthe West and just this

LEUT TYSON: So you've never seen anything like that before?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, no, no.

LEUT TYSON: Now, in terms of also, doing exercises and preparing for battle, had Kormoran everprepared exercises for one day meeting a destroyer or a light cruiser, a major war vessel?

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Where it's about all these practice session which were made on the Kormoran?Were there some special exercises on Kormoran for the day there is a meeting with a war ship, acruiser or a destroyer?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, yes, yes. Every day he went to the starboard 3,7, to Mahn, his LanceCorporal, and he said: "What do you have to aim at?" And he said: "Always to the bridge,

Captain." And he was the first one, if you see it like that, who liquidated all these people on thebridge and on the control station on Sydney. It basically was the first deadly hit, and due to thathe was the only one who received the Iron Cross.

A. In fact Mr. Detmers spent every day to our starboard 3.7 mm gunner, and he was, a petty officer, I

think, or a lieutenant, at that time, no, petty, no... what's the word for it...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: He was an able seaman or server.

A.... an able seaman. Ok. And he always asked them every day, where do you have to aim at, and he said

every day "To the bridge, Sir", and in fact he was the person who killed all the officers and crewon the bridge of Sydney that day and in fact he was the only one who received the Iron Cross

later. The gunner of the 3.7mm gun.

LEUT TYSON: And what did you know about allied techniques for identifying merchant ships? Had Germanintelligence told you this is what the allies do when they identify unidentified ships?

20


INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: What did you know though the intelligence, or how allies could find out

anything about other ships. Did you know anything about that or did they tell you, whetherthere where things which the allies used to find German ships?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No. The only thing I know and in which Captain Detmers was always very

interested in was to get the Merchant Navy Code after we stopped a neutral or British merchantship. The Merchant Navy Code was the only opportunity with which we could work, and we had

quite a few.

A. No, as, not as far as I am aware. The only thing I knew is whenever we met or tried to ransack anotherneutral or British ship was to get hold of the Merchant Navy Code, and that was the main pointthat we wanted to have when we tried to ransack another ship, also which was very important

to us.

LEUT HARPER: Was that successful? Did you have, did you have a copy of the Merchant Ship RecognitionCode on the Kormoran?

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Was that successful? Did you have a copy of this Merchant Navy Code on theKormoran?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: I don't know, that was a thing between Detmers and Von Malapert, whowas responsible for the whole wireless thing. How it worked .... But I knew that the MerchantNavy Code was important for him.

A. I don't know if the, if we ever were success, if we ever were successful in this, that was the case but wemissed the Detmers, Mr. von Malapert he was ...

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Wireless officer.

A.... he was the wireless officer, organizer - I just know, the only thing I know is that was really very

important to Detmers to get hold of the Merchant Navy Code.

LEUT TYSON: But you don't have any personal knowledge of whether he did or did not have those codes.

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: But you personally don't know whether he had this Code or not?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, no. No, we didn't have it.

A. No we didn't have it.

LEUT TYSON: Obviously, to win war it is important to know what your enemy might do and how theywould react in a situation. Did you have an idea of what an allied ship would do to identify

merchant ships? How they would go about it?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, not that. We only knew that a neutral, a foreign merchant ship had theorder to go onto the reciprocal course once they sighted a cruiser. And in our opinion in many

cases that was a clear sign that if there was a cruiser which is turning off, it is complying with

21


that order, it is will surely be one of us. He is doing the right maneuver and that's what Detmers

was thinking when he went onto the reciprocal course.

A. No, the only thing we knew is that, if, a cruiser sees a merchant, a civil merchant ship, is that it was theorder that the merchant ship has to change its course completely, to go in the other direction,

and that's exactly what Detmers did at that time, that's why we did it that day where we metthe cruiser.

LEUT TYSON: Excellent. Sorry my questions are being so long, I'm just about to get to the actual

encounter with Sydney now, but I think my friend, my colleague wants to just take a short break- is that convenient with you, sir?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: OK.

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: I am sorry my questions are so long, but we're just about to get to theimportant point about the encounter between Kormoran and Sydney. Before we would like to

have a little break if that's convenient with you?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Very well.

LEUT TYSON: And we'll now resume the questioning, thank you, and can I now take you please to theactual afternoon of 19 th November, 1941. Now, at about 16 hundred hours on that afternoon,

before the lookout sighted an unidentified vessel to the north, what were you doing onKormoran?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: It was teatime. At that time I was in my chamber, and I heard that they

had sighted a ship from the crow's nest and just after that the alarm went off. I immediatelywent to the bridge, one deck higher, where there is the operations centre. And there I had torealize that we had different identifications. First it was said it seems to be a sailing-ship,

because it has high masts. Then it was said ...

A. By that time it was teatime, in fact, I was down in my room, and then I heard that in the crow's nestthere was another ship, another vessel, was sighted, and then our ship was set into alarm mode,it was alerted, and so I went up to the bridge, in fact one deck up, to the, operations centre, and

then I heard that, we first that, was first thought that this was a sailing ship because it hard veryhigh masts.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Then it was said there are several ships, maybe a convey, and then thirdly

it was said the ship seems to be a cruiser which is approaching us very quickly.

A. Then it was said that this is an escort, with several ships, because we saw several masts, and then the

third thing that was said that this must be cruiser because it's approaching very fast.

LEUT TYSON: Um, OK, can I just go back a moment. When I said the time at the start 1600 hours, that wasthe time used on the ship.


22


LEUT TYSON: Yes. And that's, it's an hour different from local Western Australia time.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Maybe.

LEUT TYSON: Yes. But, but, as far as...

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: It's the time we use always.

LEUT TYSON: Yes, but that was your, the ship time. Now, when the alarm rang, was it an alarm to go tobattle stations? And you said that you went to the operations centre on the bridge, was thatyour battle station?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: It's up.... over the bridge, the signal deck. There we have the distance, rangefinder?

A. Range finder.

LEUT HARPER: Range finder.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Range finder, okay. And there the former first lieutenant, Skeries, and Iwere responsible for the telephone connection to the bridge, the Commander and the artillerycommand. That was my position for the entire time during the battle, starting from 4pm.

A. From 16 o'clock onwards, 16 one hundred onwards I was supposed to be, I was on my battle stationwhich was the signaling deck, there we had the range finder, and there was chief officerSkeries...


A ...who was responsible for the artillery...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN] Yes, the first artillery officer, Brinkmann was the second.

A ...and, first artillery officer was Mr. Skeries, and my duty was to keep the telephone conversation

between the bridge and this artillery command station.

LEUT TYSON: You talked about this identification process where, um, it was thought to be a sailing ship,and then there was a delay before the ship was identified as a cruiser. How long was that

period?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: In the beginning the observer in the crow's nest was always an officer, who

gave the different descriptions for the objects he saw. But then it happened so quickly that hesaid, no, it is a cruiser, and he also said that there seems to be steam coming out of the funnel.Then the Commander immediately said: "Come down; pull down t the crow's nest, on yourbattle station."

23


A. It was like that, the, we always had an officer in the crow's nest, who was on sight, who was on watch,

trying to find other ships and then it was very, very quickly because, first it was a sailor, then itwas very quickly set out as a cruiser, because also he could see the steam coming up from thefunnel of the cruiser, and then it was very quickly that the commander said: "No, pull down thecrow's nest and get into battle stations, on your battle stations."

LEUT TYSON: And was that Jansen who was the lookout, who made the first sighting?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: That was Herr Jansen, who was up in the lookout.

LEUT TYSON: Jansen?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Jansen, yes. That was a young merchant officer, the youngest of the prizeofficer we had.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah, that was Mr. Jansen; he was a very young merchant officer.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Lieutenant.

LEUT TYSON: And when you say the ship was identified as a cruiser} was it} uShels a cruiserll} or uShels a

Perth-Class Cruiser"? Did you know the class of cruiser?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: We realized very lately that it had to be a Perth-Class Cruiser. But that it

was a cruiser, and because we were in Australia and we knew, that it could only be such acruiser because at the time there were only light cruisers in Australia.

A. We only identified him as a Perth-Class Cruiser very late, but we knew very quickly that was a cruiser

but then obviously because we were in Australian water or near Australia and we knew theyonly had light cruisers, then it became clear very quickly that this only could be a Perth-ClassCruiser.

LEUT TYSON: Do you know roughly speaking, from your memory, what sort of distance we're talkingabout, when the lieutenant in the crow's nest sights Sydney?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: I cannot remember that, but it is probably determined somewhere. I think

starting from 5.000m it was said he is "Now in the range finder on 5.000m". But I cannot sayhow far it was away.

A. I can't remember really, but this should be somewhere in the archives on record, I, the only thing I can

remember that, when it was at 5,000 meters, when it was shown in the range finder, that'smore-or-Iess when we found out.

LEUT TYSON: So from the signaling deck, you actually had, you could see the cruiser approach?


LEUT TYSON: And you could also see in the range finder? You could measure the range?

24


MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, for up to 5.000m we used the rangefinder which we have static, and

then we took it in because we feared that the cruiser would see that we have a rangefinder, sothen we only worked with a small device.

LEUT HARPER: Did you have binoculars?


LEUT HARPER: You had binoculars?


ROI.010.0087_R

LEUT TYSON: Are you able to indicate please, Herr Messerschmidt, on that diagram where is the signalingdeck?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Is here, up the bridge, bridge in the, up here is the range finder.

LEUT TYSON: OK. Now, who was on the bridge at the time?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Was Captain Detmers. Lieutenant Commander Henry Meier. He was the

navigation officer. Then Roland von Giisseln- he's the watch, officer on the watch during theengagement. And I remember that the prize officer, Diebitsch, was on the bridge and then otherpersonnel for the determination of the course and so on.

LEUT TYSON: What about, sailors, warren officers. Any of them on the bridge as well?

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Were there any other sailors on the bridge? Other crews?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: I don't know that. I can only name the officers of which I know they werethere.

A. I don't know I can only tell you about the officers that were on the bridge.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Navigation officer was there. Navigation officer Weinig was probably there.Navigation officer.

A. Erm} er/ er...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: It is a rank.

A. Yeah, yeah, I know.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Navigation.

A. No} the steering man/ there is a word for it} 11m sorry.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Non-commission officer for navigation.

25


LEUT TYSON: Master? Or...

A. No, the one who actually steers the ship.

ROI.010.0088_R

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, it's a rank. The rank is called navigation officer. [ENGLISH] Rank is

called "Steuermann". But he is not the one who, working at the steer he is just responsible forthe course that we go.

A. Yeah. What's the name?

LEUT TYSON: Navigation officer that was Meyer.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Navigation officer.

A. Navigation officer, okay.

LEUT TYSON: Now, where was, Oberleutnant Forster?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: The Lieutenant Commander?

LEUT TYSON: Ah, Lieutenant Commander?


LEUT TYSON: Yeah, sorry.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: As the first officer he was the only Lieutenant Commander. He was

probably not on the bridge, he probably was on deck with the guns for which he wasresponsible, but he was also in connection with the Commander. But I don't think he was on thebridge.

A. I don't believe he was on the bridge. He was probably on the deck where the artillery was, and he wasresponsible for the guns.

LEUT TYSON: Sorry, I need to stop the tapes right now. Pardon me, Herr Messerschmidt.

LEUT TYSON: Lieutenant Harper has now replaced the tape and we are just about to resume. I was askingyou sir about the, the position of some of the officers and where their battle stations were, and I

think I was asking you about Lieutenant Commander Forster. Where was he at the time when

Sydney was sighted? Do you know?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No. He was not normally on the bridge. He was on the deck. And he wasresponsible that everything runs in the ship during the shooting.

LEUT TYSON: Did you have a sort of a damage control centre so that would be set up during battle

stations?

26


MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No.

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Would you like me to translate?


A. OK, sorry, can you repeat the question, because ...

LEUT TYSON: Sometimes in ships they have, a damage control centre where someone's responsible forcoordinating fire-fighting teams to stop flooding. Did you have such a system on Kormoran?Anyone in charge of counter-measures against fire and floods?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Forster was the man who was in charge of that.

LEUT TYSON: Forster?


LEUT TYSON: Yeah. Now, um Von Gosseln, do you know where he was when Sydney was sighted?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: On the, nay, he was not on the bridge; he came, had to go to the bridgebecause he was the officer of the watch during an engagement.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Weapons officer.

LEUT TYSON: Now, in terms of the artillery, the guns, Skeries was the principal artillery officer. Is it thecase that the 20 cm guns, the 37 mm guns, that they were under separate control, or were theyalso under Skeries' control?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No. They under control of Brinkmann.

LEUT TYSON: Brinkmann. Now, do you know, um, lieutenant Buntjes? Was he either on the signalingdeck, on the bridge, or where was his position?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: I don't know. I don't know where the price officers were. I don't knowwhat kind of position they had either.

A. I don't know where the price officers were. And I don't even know what their the station they had.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Alii know is that Diebitsch was on the bridge.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah. What about someone such as Jurgensen? Was he in a position where he was able toview Sydney's approach?

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: What about Herr Jurgensen? Was he in a position where he could see howSydney was approaching?

27


MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes. I suppose Jurgensen, who was the first navigator of the reserve, andhe was on the bridge. He should've been there, and I can imagine that he would've seen that.

A. Yes, I think I can imagine he saw this because he was the, reserve navigator, and he must have been

on the bridge at that time, at least that's what I believe.

LEUT TYSON: And what about Ahlbach? Would he have been in a position to see Sydney approaching?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: I believe that was not his duty. It was his duty to put the semaphoretogether in order to answer the questions Sydney had given via morse lamp. He had the order todo this as slowly and long winded as possible so the Commander would get more time.

A. I don't think so because this was not his duty, his duty was to put together the flags to answer thelight signals that came from Sydney and to make them as slowly and complicated as possible, to,give us more time.

LEUT TYSON: What about Greter? Was he in a position to observe Sydney approaching?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: He could have been on the bridge. He was connected with the torpedo

units via telephone, on each connection of the torpedo units there was a non-commissionofficer.

A. That's possible because, a non-commissioned officer, officer was in charge of the torpedo batteries,and it could be possible that, Greter was communicating by telephone with the torpedo unitsfrom the bridge.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: May I add one thing? Greter must have been on the bridge, because he hadto keep the connection with the Commander. Because in that moment he releases the torpedohe has to ask the Commander to steer a certain course, and I think he went approximately 10

degrees starboard in order to aim correctly.

A. I must add something, Greter must have been on the bridge, because he must have told, the people incharge of the torpedo, when the torpedo was fired. And he must have told the commanderexactly how to steer the ship in order to fire the torpedo in the right position. I think it was

something with 10 degrees to starboard that the ship had to be positioned.

LEUT TYSON: And one final question in this part, von Malapert, where was he, do you know where hewas at this stage?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: I suppose he was in the radio room, together with the wiring officer Kahn.The duty was to observe whether Sydney was transmitting. And in the case that Sydney does

transmit, we had a Maroni deleting sender. He had to immediately press so that the radiomessages were not released. But Sydney did not transmit.

A. He must have been on, in the radio station, together with the wiring officer Mr. Kahn, and their duty

was to find out whether Sydney is doing any radio transmissions. In case Sydney would havetransmitted anything via the radio, we have the Marconi deleting sender.

28


LEUT TYSON: Ah, do you mean jamming?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yeah, jamming.

LEUT HARPER: Yeah, stopping or jamming.

A. OK/ a jamming transmission centre.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: So that it makes awful noises.

A. OK. Just makes a hell of noise, and, but Sydney did not.


LEUT TYSON: Yeah. And this technique of jamming, that had been, had that been used ever by Kormoran,

when it had captured merchant ships previous to this occasion?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No. Never. It was never used.

A. It was never used before.

LEUT TYSON: Yes. But it was something that they were trained for and are expected to be able to do? Is

that correct or is that wrong?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: In the case that we had stopped a merchant ship, we had the order: "Stop,don't use any wireless or be shot" and then in the most cases we did not transmit. If we did

transmit, there was a shot in front of the boat and that was we end. We never had to use theMaconu Sender.

A. If we stopped or catched a merchant shipi the order was {(stop/! and Udon1t use any wireless

communication", if they did so we shot. We fired a shot, in front of the bow to make them stop.It was never ever used our jamming device} or Maconi jamming device.

LEUT TYSON: OK. Herr Messerschmidt, I'm interested to hear about your observations of Sydney as she

approached. Can you please tell us what you remember, her speed, what was happening on herdecks, anything like that you can remember please.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: From the signalling deck, which is very high up above the bridge, I could see

how Sydney was approaching, how she went behind us very cleverly and then called us with a

morse lamp.

A. I could see from the signaling deck, which is very high, in fact, it's over the bridge. I could see theSydney approaching, and she did a very clever job, to get in a good position behind us, and Icould see also how she used the signaling light to give us signals while she approached.

29

ROI.010.009LR


MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Then I could observe very clearly how the walrus airplane was made ready

to start by swinging out the catapult, and the engine, the propeller was running and it seemedas if it would be launched.

A. Then, then I could see very clearly how the airplane, the walrus airplane, was made clear for

being fired with the catapult, how the catapult was swung out, so that the, airplane could start,and how the propeller of the airplane, and the engines started.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: And then the big surprise came. That was the first point when the

Commander told me via telephone that he feared that as soon as it was started it would see usfrom above and realize that we are no merchant ship. But when it stopped ["reindrehte"literally translated "turned in"] I had the feeling they didn't bother, I don't know, it was a

measure we didn't understand, but for us it was a sign.

A. Then came the first surprise, and also my commander was very surprised about that, that's whathe told me via the telephone, that they swung back the catapult with the airplane, and at that

point we didn't really know what this meant, we couldn't really understand this measure.Neither me nor my Commander.

LEUT TYSON: One of the things you said was that Sydney did a clever job in coming astern of Kormoran.

What do you mean by that?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: That is hard to say. From that moment on when the airplane was not

started, we had the feeling that this whole story about stopping us was undertaken very halfhearted and from that moment on the Commander said: "Now I leave the initiative entirely tothe Commander of the Sydney." And that appearance on the starboard side, by coming closerthe port side, and we had the feeling that he himself was slowly coming towards us to see us

better, to observe the signaling traffic better, and he couldn't know that we're not StraatMalakka. All he saw was a ship where - strangely - there were no people moving besides the

people on the bridge. In my opinion that would've been very suspicious, but apparently not to

Sydney.

A. That's very difficult to answer, because at the moment when we found out that the airplane wasnot started, we had the impression that, the whole attempt of Sydney was not fully hearted, itwas just half-hearted. It was very, like, a weak approach, and then our commander said: "Well

now, I'll leave the initiative to Sydney to see what they are going to do" and then they came upon starboard, or there were, until they were abeam, and we moved a little, bit to port, no, thenthey, [GERMAN] they went to the port side a little bit?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: He, no, kept to the port side, so he had space with us. We lured him to the

starboard side, if you see it like that, and he accepted it.

A. We, we steered a little bit to port, so he would come up on our starboard side more, and we had thefeeling that he, just wanted to come closer to see our signaling better, to have a better view ofthe signals, of course, he didn't know that we were not Straat Malakka and, and that to memyself, it would have been suspicious, but obviously it was not for the Sydney.

30


LEUT TYSON: What, what was Sydney's speed, was it fast, was it slow, was it at constant speed or did it

change?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: At the beginning it was about 40 knots, but as we were slowly stopping, sherun steady on our starboard side and Captain Detmers said to me: "Our camouflage is excellent.He has no suspicion} maybe they saYI {Good voyagel to us/ or {Good journeyl} and let us go/!.

That was his wish that the camouflage was excellent, and the behavior of the Sydney was so thatin a minute they would say "Good-bye" to you.

LEUT TYSON: You said that Kormoran was coming to a stop, did you move very slow

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, no, no stop. Slowly, slowly along.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: And we, we, on the, we could see the men on board of the Sydney. Behind

the canvas on the signal deck with my glass. And they are walking slowly, here, slowly there.There was a, no, no, not the correct of a ship being ready for fight.

LEUT TYSON: ... for action ...

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: ... for action, yeah.

LEUT HARPER: At this point in time, what sort of distance, in meters, are we talking about?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: About 10, a thousand meters.

LEUT TYSON: Roughly, how many men do you remember having seen on Sydney's decks?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Not very much, most on the bridge, but they running, going, look, but we

had, we didn't wave you see and they didn't do. But somebody said they saw the cook underregular, I never saw a cook, but they were just looking.

LEUT TYSON: Were they wearing white uniforms, or overalls? Or...

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, no.

LEUT TYSON: Navy uniforms?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: We had not to be seen, the only man who has no uniform, just a t-shirt was

Ahlbach, the signal officer. The signal mate, the ...

LEUT TYSON: Sorry, but the men you saw on Sydney, do you remember what they were wearing wherewearing sort of naval uniforms} white shirts} ironed} or was it overalls/ or...

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Normal working uniform, we have at the navy.

31


LEUT TYSON: Yeah. Did you see men at Sydney's anti-aircraft guns and her torpedo tubes? Did you see

men manning those positions?

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Would you like me to translate ...?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: I don't remember any men at the torpedo tubes.

LEUT TYSON: You did not see any men there?


LEUT HARPER: Before the engagement?


LEUT HARPER: Never.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Well, I can't remember. See, you have an impression if you have been verytense for one and a half hours, it was 4 pm, by then past Sm. You are very tense and you see anenemy in that ship who can blow you up with just one shot into the mining deck, and he is

coming closer, but even though the tubes were directed at us, and the torpedo unit was set up,we saw nobody over there who gave us any impression that he would shoot.

A. I can't remember. You have to see it was by this time it was one and a half hours after 16 o'clock andwe were in this one and half hours, no it was sometime after S o'clock. After 17 o'clock, and wesaw this enemYI we were very tense/ of course we knew that one shot of this enemYI one shot in

the mining deck would just kill us and to see this enemy approaching, of course he had pointed

his guns and torpedoes at us, but for some, it didn't look like they were really going to use theseguns or torpedoes. And that was how it was. Yeah.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: That changed in sudden bursts when Sydney all the sudden demanded thesignal, the secret letter. And the Commander asked von Malapert: "Do we have them?" We didnot have them, and in that moment that this question was asked they had apparently becomesuspicious, because a movement started. Many white caps went to the bridge, to the controlstation, and the Commander apparently had the impression that now there is the moment

where I have to show the flag. That was of value to him. Ahlbach got the order to first fly thewar ensign, before he said "Drop Camouflage". When Ahlbach reported: "Captain, the warensign is waving.", then the dropping of the camouflage came and he said that we only now andnever again have the chance to attack legally. Because over there apparently they realized that

something is not right with that ship. We noticed that by the movement of the people on deck.

All the sudden they were running.

A. This all changed completely, within a certain moment, because suddenly we noticed that there wasmovements going on the other ship, obviously, they had caught the suspicion that the we werenot what we were intending to be. They found out that we were not Malakka, it seemed likethis, there were white hats walking around and...

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: ... to the bridge, for instance, of the...

32


A. ... to the bridge, okay, and we ... [GERMAN] And then people on Sydney went to the control station oron Kormoran?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, on Sydney.

A. And then on Sydney we saw people moving up to the control tower, to the central control tower and

then, our Commander said to Arlberg, that's, Ahlbach is the name?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Ahlbach.

A. Ahlbach is the name of the, person, to hoist the, our flag...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: The order was: "Set the war ensign".

A. Yes, yes. To hoist, to hoist the war flag of Germany, and only then, after this flag was hoist, was the

possibility to legally attack Sydney and our Commander said to Ahlbach, we only have theposition right now and never, ever again, because we could see on the other ship, on theSydney, we could see, that they had a suspicion and they were probably going to attack us, thatour camouflage had, was no longer there, in fact.

LEUT TYSON: Thank you, can I just go back and ask the question I should have asked before, Kormoran'scourse, what direction was Kormoran heading in when Sydney was first sighted?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: We turned, just as we were sighted Sydney to the west, we are running tothe west and Sydney just following us, in the first time behind us and then slowly, slowly, on ourstarboard side.

LEUT TYSON: So is it the case that Kormoran was travelling northerly, in a northerly direction? First, andthen turned west?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: When we saw, before we saw the Sydney, we had the direction right tonortherly, a course leading to the coast.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah. And the reason why you said you turned west was that that was the merchant ship

tactic?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: What we had to do as a neutral, as a British, or allied merchant ship woulddo to showl 11 m neutral} 11 m not a foreigner} a enemy ship.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah. And another question, please, about your observations of Sydney. You talked aboutseeing the walrus being prepared for take-off on the catapult and then not, what about, did you

see any boats being prepared. Sydney's boats being lowered, anything like that, you don'tremember that?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Only the airplane.

33


LEUT TYSON: OK, now, you've mentioned the two areas now that I would like to go to, please, signaling

and the war flag. First in terms of signaling, did you see Sydney sending signals to Kormoran?


LEUT TYSON: You didn't see flags or search lights?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, nothing, we just had the, the morse lamp.

LEUT TYSON: So, you saw the Morse lamp was sent from, Sydney to Kormoran? And the wireless roomon Kormoran would have been dealing with that?

LEUT HARPER: No, no, it's morse flashing.

LEUT TYSON: Ah, the signals were done by ...

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Lamp.

LEUT TYSON: Lamp?

LEUT HARPER: From, from Sydney.

LEUT TYSON: From Sydney?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yeah, from, from Sydney.

LEUT HARPER: On a bridge wing lamp? Doesn't matter, but, a big, big lamp?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, not the big spotlight. Not a thrower, a light thrower. It was a...

LEUT HARPER: A small one?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: We use it in the German navy to, the...

LEUT HARPER: Signaling lamp, like a...

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Signal box.

LEUT HARPER: Yeah.

LEUT TYSON: Signal box.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yeah

LEUT HARPER: It's slightly bigger than an Aldus lamp?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No. They are fixed and not ported.

34


LEUT HARPER: I understand.

LEUT HARPER: Now, can you remember what the signals were, sent from Sydney to Kormoran?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No. No, not my job.

LEUT HARPER: Yep. And do you know what signals Kormoran was sending back to Sydney?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, there were different opinions, the course where are going to, where

are coming from, von Giisseln had different opinion with the answer, going to Lorenzo Marks,coming from Fremantle, or coming from Batavia, it lasted a lot of time, then in the end they said{(Coming from Batavia} going to Lorenzo Marksll

} this was the opinion of von G6sseln.

LEUT HARPER: So you don't have any direct or witness knowledge of the signals?


LEUT HARPER: But you had a conversation with von Giisseln later...


LEUT HARPER: ...and he told you that this is what the signals were?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, yes. After the war we had lot of time to talk it over, because captainDetmers was, when we have been in the officer's camp in Naringal, he got all his officerstogether, because the reminding of things which lay just behind us, fix together to a report, aspecial report.

LEUT HARPER: Yeah.

ROI.010.0097_R

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: And he asked all the officer what they know, just what you are doing here,for his recommendation.

LEUT HARPER: So did they discuss signals, something being sent, NNP or NNJ. Some signal?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: I don't know any of that, it's a different business.

A. It's none of my business. I don't know anything about the signaling.

LEUT TYSON: And then, perhaps you might not know this either, when Kormoran was sending signals

back to Sydney, do you know whether this was done by flags, or by...

LEUT HARPER: Signal lamp.

LEUT TYSON: ... Iamp?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: By flags, only by flags.

35


LEUT HARPER: No signal lamp?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, only by flags.

LEUT TYSON: No voice communications between Sydney and Kormoran?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, no, no. Sometimes Sydney said or gave us with the folding box (?) "Icannot identify your signal, it is behind the funnel. " And all of that was just time, so he had totake the signal down and up again. The entire signaling traffic went on for more than an hour.

A. No, it was like that there were, sometimes there was, Sydney was signaling "look, I cannot see yoursignals, because they are behind the funnel" or things like that and then they had to be taken in

and hoisted again and all this was used to make time and all the signaling lasted at least onehour more or less} lasted one hour more or less.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah. When you say you didn't have any direct knowledge of these things, these are things

told to you after the event.


LEUT TYSON: You mention a city there, when you are talking about what von Giisseln said, you talkedabout Batavia} but then you said {(Lorenzo Marks/!.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Lorenzo Marks that is on the East Coast of Africa.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah. Now you might not be able to answer this question at all, do you have any knowledgeof Kormoran sending a signal} a {(QQQI! signal?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: I know that from the, wireless officer.

LEUT TYSON: That's von Malapert?


LEUT TYSON: And what did he tell you about that, please?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: We had, we have of our experience in that case neutral allied merchant shipsend uRRRI! for {(raider/! and {(QQQI! for {(unknown ship/!. Because it was/ we know it from the

other ships so we gave the sign that Sydney should know we are Straat Malakka.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: "QQQ" - Straat Malakka, and I think we had an answer from Perth, but I

know it from von Malapert.

LEUT TYSON: Some people argue that in October 1941, the Kriegsmarine had said to the raiders to use

the "0:' signal as a way to sign their position. So the "Q" signal would go to an allied, wireless

36


station, that would then be broadcasted and then the Kriegsmarine would pick up the identity

with the whereabouts of the ship.

LEUT HARPER: And perhaps that it was also in trouble.

A. Could you please repeat, no, just because to say it again, because I am not really listening to yourquestions so much as I do to his.

LEUT TYSON: Some of the analysts of this battle say that in October 1941 the Kriegsmarine had come up

with an idea that the "Q" signal would be used as a means of raiders at sea using that techniqueto alert Berlin to the whereabouts of the raider and that the raider might be in trouble. Thethinking was that if the "Q" signal was sent out, it would be picked up by allied transmission

stations. They would then transmit that to themselves and allover the world and Berlin wouldpick up the signal and they would say "Aha, that's where our ship is and she is in trouble".

A. Okay, so the analysts of this battle say that in October 1941 the Kriegsmarine basically ordered the

armed merchant cruisers to send this "Q" signal to receive information that they are in trouble.Then this "Q" signal would be received from all of the allied radio stations and passed on andthen received from the headquarter in Berlin, so they knew that one of our armed merchantcruisers in this area is in trouble. Is that correct?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No. I don't know any of that, but I know that we only took the "QQQ" as asign} well) identify you as a raiser{(/ or) identify you as an unknown ship. {(

A. I don't know anything about this, and I have never heard it before, the only thing I know is that the{(QQQI! was used as a sign for an unknown ship and the uRRRIl

} as I said before} for a raider.

LEUT HARPER: I understand that, but why did Kormoran send that "Q" signal, I still don't understand. Asyou call it a grey funnel line ship is pretty obvious.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes. That's right, you are right.

LEUT HARPER: It's not blue funnel line, it's grey funnel line.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Maybe it's an idea of von Malapert, I don't know, I didn't...

LEUT HARPER: It's not as if it was unknown it's, it's pretty obvious what it is, but I am just interested as towhy von Malapert would have sent that "Q"signal.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Honestly, I have to say that I was always of the opinion that we did not

transmit at all. Because the Commander said: "Every spark I send out can locate me." Andapparently he thought, well, maybe with an emergency signal "Here is Straat Malakka, I'm in

trouble.", even though he didn't. And it was actually meant for Sydney, but I don't knowwhether they understood it. But basically Detmers said "As few sparks as possible". And I wasvery surprised when I heard - and it must have been the case - that we did transmit. Detmers

must have told Malapert: "Send a radio message with "QQQ" - Straat Malakka", and he also

send the position.

37


A. To me personally, I have always thought, that we never used any wireless communication at this time,

because as it was Detmers position that, was to use the wireless as less as possible, because thatwas a, is a means of finding our position, that's for me a bit strange that we did, in fact, send asignal, the 000 signal plus the position. I don't understand it, but, yeah, I don't really know whyMalapert did this and I heard it only afterwards.

LEUT TYSON: OK.

LEUT HARPER: OK.

LEUT TYSON: Now Herr Messerschmidt, you talked a little bit about the war ensign. What flag wasKormoran flying, when Sydney was first identified?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: I didn't see it, but it should be the Netherland, the Dutch flight, the Dutchflag.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah. Some people have suggested that Kormoran had a Norwegian flag and was disguisedas a Norwegian ship at the time she met Sydney, what do you say to that?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: There is no reason to show a Norwegian flag, somebody of our sailors didn't

know that Dutch flag and I don't where it come from, but it's obvious nothing.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah. Now the, so you think that Kormoran was flying the Dutch flag when she met Sydney.

Did you hear any orders about either changing the flag, taking it down, putting up another flag?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: I heard on the telephone how the Commander said: "Haul down the Dutchflag, set the German flag. Repast when flag is waiving." That went to the telephone of signal

mate Ahlbach.

A. I heard it by the telephone how our Commander said: "Pull down the Dutch flag. Hoist the German

war flag, and "make a message as soon as the war flag is up" and I heard this was going, thisorder was going to the telephone of Mr. Ahlbach.

LEUT TYSON: Do you know how long it took to pull down the flag that was up there and then lift up thewar flag?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Very quick by hand.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah. And is it also the case...

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: There's a man separately, who does it, not Ahlbach, he has his second manto do that job.

LEUT TYSON: Is it the case too, that different flags are flying at different parts of the ship?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: I remember the Dutch flag on the stock and the ...

LEUT HARPER: ...on the stern.

38


MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: ...on the stern, yes. On the second mast.

LEUT HARPER: Yeah, got you. And the war flag on the flag deck behind the bridge?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, behind just...

LEUT HARPER: Yeah, adjacent to the bridge. So here ...

ROI.010.010LR

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, that... Well, I haven't seen Ahlbach myself. It must have been furtherin the back, on this mast. I suppose that this here -it isn't drawn very well - it must have been

the signal mast.

A. I haven't seen Ahlbach myself. It must have been on the mast further down. The drawing isn't verywell made. It must be this signal mast.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Well, for sure Ahlbach was not on this signaling deck, he was further back.

A. So Ahlbach was not on the signaling deck...


A....he was more to the aft.


LEUT TYSON: And, you said that that took place very quickly?


LEUT TYSON: Roughly how long? Is it, are we talking seconds, or half a minute, or?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes. Seconds, not minutes.

LEUT TYSON: Seconds?


LEUT HARPER: Because is it right to assume that in readying the mast or the halyard, to put the battle

ensign up, the sailor doing it would get it ready and as soon as the order was given, he then

pulls, so it goes straight up?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: He had one man with him, whom he passed the order of the Commanderto. He was always standing there readily, always with the German war ensign, because Detmersknew, "If there is a battle I have to drop the camouflage", and there has to be a revelation, it isthe first warlike action, and he knew, "Before I do this, I have to be sure that the flag is waiving".

And I am of the firm believe that Detmers did not have to wait for Ahlbach's call "War ensignwaivingll

} he was able to see it himself and then said {(Drop Camouflage} open fire./!

39


A. OK, there was always a separate man ready there next to the mast who was, whose job it wasonly to hoist the flag and he was given the order by Ahlbach. Also, it was very impossible, ahh,very, very important for Detmers that the hoisting of the war flag was the first act in a battle,the first act of war, and that's why it has, had to be done and I think he never, he didn't even

have to wait for the message that the flag was hoisted, because he could see it from where hewas, so he didn't wait for the message that the flag was up, just because he could see it from

where he was.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: But he waited, he waited before he gave...

A. But he did wait.

LEUT HARPER: Can you remember is it afore of the bridge or after the bridge?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: After the bridge.

LEUT HARPER: It's after the bridge. OK.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Is there any better picture of it or is that from Sydney?

LEUT HARPER: That's a photograph, but...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes. See, it must have been in this area. There.

A. So around there it must have been.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Here. This is the second mast. And here, there was a kind of construction.Well, this is the Steiermark. And here you can see, no, well I think here there was a device toshow the flag. Because normally a ship has to show its flag on the main mast, and the main mast

is here, and this is the foremast. And a painter, who drew the Kormoran - I almost droppeddead - it was a marine painter, and he drew the war ensign here in the front. When I saw thatpicture I said: IlDid you go insane?{(

A. OK, every ship has to have the war flag on its main mast and so that was aft mast, here. And I saw a

picture painted of Kormoran and I said to the painter: "You must be crazy", because he paintedthe flag on the front mast which is obviously completely wrong and there was some sort ofdevice to hoist the flag on this mast.

LEUT HARPER: Yeah. OK. Thank you, that's great.

LEUT TYSON: Thank you. Now, just about to ask questions about the, the orders that were made to

commence firing, but just before we get there, you talked earlier about you thought that Sydneyhad become suspicious? And you remember seeing men moving up on Sydney to the centraldirective control tower, can you please explain why you thought Sydney became suspicious?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes. Well, all of this time I could see that there is a war ship over there,with people who unhurriedly walk over the deck and look over the rail. They did not at all make

40


the impression that there is a battle about to start. And then there was the question for the

secret signal letters and of course a great shock for us. From that moment I got the feeling thatsomeone over there said: "Something's not right with them." And then the responsible officerscame out, the warrant officer on the bridge, maybe artillery officers and so on. "Something's notright". This was the crucial point and the most favorable situation for Detmers to use all our

guns before he would. This was the moment where, after a few seconds of the revelation, thethree-seven gun on 900m like a curve - I can still see it, these star shell- fell onto the bridge and

killed everything on the bridge. It was a horrible sight. But he didn't have to aim any more to getthere; he only had to hold it like a water hose.

A. That was a quite long paragraph, anyway.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Well, I'm sorry.

LEUT TYSON: It sounded good though.

LEUT HARPER: Would you like to translate?

A. That's why we call it interpreting, there is some part maybe, but the most important parts I will get.OK, we looked to the other ship and we could see people there moving about not really in

position, in a battle position, they were definitely not, but then at some point I got, they didn'tmake the impression that they were ready for a battle, but then they asked for our secret signaland then we were very terrified, of course, but that was also the moment when I had the

impression that on the other ship, on the Sydney, they said to themselves "There is somethingwrong with this ship", and then I saw some officers, probably the warrant officer, whoever, wentup to the bridge and I have the impression they said to each other "There is something wrongwith this shipll}

LEUT HARPER: As in "there is something wrong with Kormoran"?

A. Yeah, there is something wrong with Kormoran.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, yes. That is Straat Malakka.

A. And that is when the suspicion started and that was also the moment when Detmers said now or

never we have to use our weapons and then all the rest happened, we did camouflage and allthat and our 3.7 mm gun on the, for distance of 900 meters just shot in a bow towards Sydneyand actually destroyed the whole bridge and that was the main part hawaii these people werekilled.

LEUT TYSON: When you say "Detmers said now or never", are that words that you heard him or are youparaphrasing that or is that something you remember him having said?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, I think I remember that when there was the question for the secretsignal there was"We don't have that, now we have to fight. "

A. I remember when the question occurred for the secret signal that it was said "Now we have to fight".

41


INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: What were his exact words again?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, I cannot repeat this exactly. But I know for sure that he said: "We don'thave the secret signal and now we have to fight".

A. OK, I don't remember the exact words, I just remember that it was said "We don't have the secretsignal, now we have to fight.1!

LEUT TYSON: Who said "We don't have the secret signal"? Von Malapert or Detmers?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, Detmers said that, after Malapert had said: "We don't have it",Detmers talked to everyone, to all battle stations and said: "We don't have the secret signal.

Now we have to fight.", well in that sense, and then he called "Drop Camouflage", no, first therewas the whole story with the flags, and once he saw the flag then there was "Drop Camouflage"and "Open fire". And that actually was an issue of all the guns, but you could see the threeseven and the MGs as the quickest ones, and very quickly we had the first hits with the 15cm. I

know, because I was next to the ...

A. In effect, it was when Malapert said: "We are not having the secret signal", then Detmers told toeverybody who was on battle station: "We don't have the, we don't know secret signal, now we

have to fight". Then was the story about the hoisting the flag and then came the orders fromDetmers to lower the camouflage and to fire.

LEUT TYSON: OK.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Well, verbally "Enttarnen".

A. "Enttarnenl! means to de-camouflage, to lower...

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, "Drop Camouflage, open fire" that means that every officer, Skeries,

Brinkmann, Greter were free to do the job. And they did it, equally, the quickest one was the 2cm and the 3.7 and the third salvo hit the Sydney, the first too far, the second too short, or viceversa, I don't remember, but the third one was a hit. And then the command means "Gut,schneW', {(Good and quickll

, and then every four-five second, on-, the four guns involved on

starboard side, the two hedge guns in the mid, and the on the stern and in the front. That

means, and they all held the waterline of the Sydney and one met the airplane walrus burninglike an explosion. It was, it was terrific for us, we didn't expect that, such an outcome.

LEUT TYSON: OK.

LEUT HARPER: Just for the record, at this point in time, what is the distance between Kormoran andSydney?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: It was the same at 900m.

LEUT TYSON: OK. Just for the benefit of the tape we should probably make something clear, we are

talking about the secret signal; please explain for the benefit of the tape what you mean by "thesecret signal/!.

42


MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: I don't think that we knew such a secret signal existed. We only learnedthat later, that all allies or merchant ships in the order of the allies had such a signal, which isonly given for one journey.

A. I think at that moment we didn't even know that a secret signal was required and we only learnedabout this later that the secret signals were given to all neutral or allied merchant ships per

journey or wherever.

LEUT TYSON: But do you have any knowledge of Sydney actually sending by morse a message toKormoran: {(Show us the secret signal/!?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, by lamp.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah.

LEUT HARPER: Lamp.

LEUT TYSON: Sorry? By lamp, yes. Now, the order that was given, that you talked about that CaptainDetmers gave before the firing commenced, how was that order passed through the ship? Is

that telephone to the officers? By the Captain? Or does it, is it piped through the ship, how doesthe order actually transmit?

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: The order from Captain Detmers, "Open Fire", how was that distributed to theindividual officers. Were they told by telephone, to which every officer was connected to, orhow were they informed?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: All the telephones were equally interconnected, and the telephone of theCommander was audible on every battle station, just like the telephone of the artillery officers.

A. All the telephones were interconnected, and the telephone of the Commander - everybody could hearit on the several; every officer on each battle station could hear it.

LEUT HARPER: OK.

LEUT TYSON: Now, you probably answered this question earlier when you talked about camouflage, fromwhen the order was given to take off the camouflage to the first firing of shells from Kormoran,do you know how long that took?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: They say six second including the dec-, er, camouflage and the first salvo.

For the 15cm I don't know how it is. The 3.7 could do it instantly and the, the 2cm, too, becausethey came out by hydraulic.

LEUT TYSON: In terms of who fired first, whether it was Kormoran or Sydney, what do you say aboutthat? Which ship fired first?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Ha! I think we have seen Sydney first, because the messages from thecrow's nest and the first gaze: "It's a sailing ship" means that the mast were above the horizon

43


and then it came much more out, "It looks like escort" and that may be the moment when

Sydney turned on us, because we saw smoke coming out of the funnel it looks like they took asecond or third or fourth engine or something to go on full speed in our direction.

LEUT TYSON: Sorry, I think my question, my question was unclear, but it was a useful answer anyway. But

in terms of firing, the guns firing of both Kormoran and Sydney, which ship fired, shot at theother ship first?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: They say that the first salvo came from the Sydney and just over us.

LEUT TYSON: Do you remember that or is that your...


LEUT TYSON: Yeah. You can't remember who fired first?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, I had, I had only to see what our guns did.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah.

LEUT HARPER: At this point in time, where were you on the bridge?

LEUT TYSON: Or signaling deck?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: I'm on the signal deck, but behind the canvas, you see.

LEUT HARPER: Yeah.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: I couldn't stand up, because they could see me.

LEUT HARPER: Yeah, I got you.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah. OK, now can you just describe, please, the sound of the guns being fired and theatmosphere at the time?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Atmosphere?

LEUT TYSON: Yeah.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: We are a merchant ship and four guns with 15cm firing every six second

that makes our ship like ... in the rooms all fell down, it was horrible, but it doesn't meananything, but to see how the hits came on the Sydney and my personal impression was the 3.7

and see the people with white caps on the bridge and the personnel running to the torpedotubes... they were shot down by the, and we, they couldn't even, we don't know that nobodywas at the torpedo tubes.

LEUT TYSON: Just in a moment perhaps I'll ask you to show perhaps on Lt Harper's diagram of Sydney,some of this damage and the damage on Sydney, but you talked about the guns being fired by

44


Kormoran and the salvoes, were Kormoran's torpedoes fired within this sequence of events at

all?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Oh, the torpedo was much later than that artillery. I think it's about, Gretergave the correct difference, but I saw the, when the torpedo hit just between the both towers

on the front and somebody said, it, the torpedo hit before the first tower, turret, I rememberjust between the towers and I could see that the fore ship, gave, came down, I never saw the

screws, and I say: "Now she goes under" but she kept up and I saw that it was a very heavy hit.

LEUT TYSON: So there were several gun salvoes from Kormoran before the torpedo was fired?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, several.

LEUT TYSON: And do you know which torpedo was fired? Was it from the underwater tubes or from thedeck mantle tubes?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, only one battery, the starboard battery, one torpedo hit and the secondtorpedo before the Sydney off and away.

LEUT TYSON: Yes, but that torpedo that hit, do you know where it came from on Kormoran? Apart you

know it was obviously the starboard side.


LEUT TYSON: But was it from the deck mantle or the underwater one?

ROI.010.0107_R

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No. If we had to use the underwater we had to have another course,

because the underwater torpedo tube is in fixed and is shot by the motion of our ship, not bythe battery.

LEUT TYSON: And when this shooting was going on, what speed was Kormoran travelling at?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Slower than at the beginning.

LEUT TYSON: Less than ten knots?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Less than ten knots, yes.

LEUT TYSON: Do you remember what speed Sydney was travelling at?

LEUT HARPER: Was she ...

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, wei I. .. we must be, I saw, some minutes after the beginning of theencounter, Sydney fell back, I didn't see the hit on the airplane for instance, and I don't know ifDetmers got more speed to get away, or Sydney did it, and I didn't see the motion behind ourship, I didn't see the, tracks of the torpedoes from Sydney, I never saw it. And I don't know who

saw it, von Giisseln, who was on the aft of the ship, I gave the information to Spiegel Online andhe called me: "I say you something, I said near to Sydney when I was on the behind, I never saw

45


a torpedo coming from Sydney, and that was impossible because everybody on Sydney was

dead to that time." That's his opinion.

LEUT TYSON: Von Giisseln's opinion?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Von Giisseln's, yes.

LEUT TYSON: Can I ask you now, please, Lt Harper has a diagram, line drawings of Sydney, can you please,indicate the damage that you saw being done to Sydney, by Kormoran's guns?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Well, this is the wrong side, I am...

A. It's the wrong side.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: It's the wrong side, because here I am on the starboard side, I am on theportside. Wei!. .. you have to turn the ship around ...

A. To turn around the ship.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Wei!. .. well, I will try it. ..

LEUT TYSON: This is the portside?

A. Yeah.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, well, the two hits, this is the bow, these are the two turret. When Ilook at it now I must say, it was a bit further in the front, not like others say, but I thought I had

seen the hit between the two turrets, and I saw and experienced how they bent in. But that wassurprising, because in the meantime it was salvo for salvo in artillery.

A. So now when I look at it I must say that to my imagination it was hit, the torpedo hit between the firstand the second turret, and I also saw how the ship was bended here at this point.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, this is my opinion.

A. Yeah.

LEUT TYSON: So, her bow went into the water?

A. Did her bow go under water?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, well, not up to the flagstaff, but you really could see the bend. And

because Sydney was still driving, maybe 10 miles, the bend was tilling the water.

LEUT HARPER: Or we would say she went down by the head?

46


A. Yeah, and there was, it was bended. Just because of the hit the bow was bended from and because it

was going forward, of course that pushed the bow more into the water. It was not going all theway into the water, to the flag post, but...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: One had the impression that this torpedo - on such a short distance- , that

due to the structure of the ship and the speed and the effect of the explosion there was such astrong rip just here which made the bow bend.

A. One had the impression that due to the impact of the torpedo plus the impact of the speed, the

Sydney had and the structure of the ship itself, there was a fracture right here which made the wholefore ship come down, and leaving, probably it get, [GERMAN] well, that there was a gap here, a rip?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Well we couldn't see a rip, but the ship changed.

A. We couldn't see the gap. Yeah, there was a change in the structure of the ship.

LEUT TYSON: What about, did you see any damage from Kormoran's guns to Sydney's turrets, or herbridge, or her funnels, control towers, anything like that?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, I can only remember the hits I was able to see from outside here. Well,

that was about in this height, which went into the waterline with the 15cm. These were shotswhich punched through the hull planking, which is unusual because a cruiser has a plating. Butthe short distance caused this, and we were using barrel detonation fuses, bottom, which meansthat the shell would go in, very smoothly through the planking, and caused an explosion inside.

A. No, all that I could see was, we used this 15 mm guns and they went through the amour of thecruiser.

LEUT HARPER: Whereabouts? Can you, can you indicate

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Where about was that?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, yes, about like this ...

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Where did the 15mm snap through?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, yes. Well, I say.

LEUT HARPER: Herr Messerschmidt, if you draw in red, that. ..

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: We needed ... well, I would say the hits were in about this high.

A. This height.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: I cannot say it in detail, but all of them were below the deck and above thewater. This was the Captain's general order, to aim at the hull plating, on the waterwall,because everything that flies above does not hit, although it would've been interesting to...

47


A. ... below the deck....Above the water. And that was also the general order of the captain to exactly aim

at this line ...

LEUT TYSON: At the water line?

LEUT HARPER: No, no, no.

A. No, at the freeboard, everything that's above the water?

LEUT HARPER: The water line is there.

LEUT TYSON: The freeboard?

A. So the freeboard and we think that's above the water...

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, between water line and seaboard. Yes.

LEUT HARPER: That's what I suspected anyway.

A. So yeah, it's this line, because everything that's going over it would not hit and then also he said

before that we used special ...

LEUT HARPER: Armor piercing?

A. Yeah, well, the grenades would only explode after having passed the armor of the ship.

LEUT TYSON: Cause you can have a fuse in the nose of a shell or the base of a shell.

A. That's what it is, yeah.

LEUT TYSON: Do you know so, these, the fuse were it in the nose of the shell, armor-piercing? Or?

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Was he fuse here in the front of the shell? Or in the back?

LEUT TYSON: Like a high explosive?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, I could only see how the shell went in, into the hull plating. I could notsee anything else. The explosion must have been inside and the fire came from the inside.

A. I could only see the shell and exploded inside and the fire came from the inside

LEUT HARPER: Now that's, whereabouts? All along here?


INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Along the entire length of the ship or only here in the front?

48


ROI.010.011 LR

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, well I believe that in the previous exercises every gunner was training

very precisely on a war ship, because we didn't have to do this with a merchant ship. After theincident with the Cornwall and the Pinguin, he said:"I have to make sure I hit the waterline. Inany case hit the waterline with my base fuse shells, because then I hit the ship the best and fireit into blaze." That was his intention, and I think all this time he was living from the idea:

"I'm not scared of a merchant ship. This I can stop and take it and sink it, that is no job, I don'teven need weapons to do that, I only need my heavy arms when there is a ship from the GreySteam Company.{(

A. I had the impression that it was Detmers' idea was all the time: "Of course we have to train for thisbecause I don't need this when I when I meet a merchant ship just when I meet a ship from theGrey Steam Company, as they say, and was always said, or that was his idea, also from the

experience of the engagement between Pinguin and Cornwall, that was the other ship, I thinkthat Detmers thought it is most important to hit here to produce a fire inside the ship.

LEUT TYSON: So really aiming to destroy enemy warship?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: The warship, yes. [GERMAN] Because we had combat training once a weekand only when we had combat training he walked through the ship and asked at every gun:"What are you aiming at?" And from the bridge our artillery officer, Skeries, can only order tothe turrets: Target- superstructure, target - airplane, for example, or target - waterline. The

gunner, Kahn, then takes the target and does it. But they didn't even have to aim, they wereseeing it themselves.

A. Once a week there was exercise and that was also time when Detmers went around boat toevery single station, asking them where are you aiming at and the later it was of course the variousofficers said aim at the airplane, aim at the superstructure, aim at the, at the hull of the ship,

wherever and, but this was not necessary anymore, because they could see it themselves with theSydney.

LEUT TYSON: But were shots from Kormoran hit-, destroying turrets, bridges, control towers of theSydney as well?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, it is possible that one of the four guns that were operating got theorder to aim at the airplane, the bridge or the fore ship. But it is only a target, and they did not

need a telescopic sight, they only needed to turn and a little higher, and that happened veryquickly because there was nothing coming back from Sydney. Only the aft turret, the portsideaft turret, they hit us, and caused the main hits in the funnel and in the engine.

A. That was not really necessary in this case, because, it was all so quickly, it was so easy done,

because we had the aim very close in front of us and then what is also more important there were no,nothing coming back from our enemy, from the Sydney, because, after all it was only the most aft

turret that was still working.

LEUT TYSON: Did you see fire on Sydney?


49


LEUT TYSON: Whereabouts was the fire concentrated?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: From the bridge to aft. Not on the fore ship.

LEUT TYSON: What about smoke, was there smoke?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: There was smoke, came from our burning engine, through the [GERMAN]fan, what is it called?

A. Through the, where the air comes through ...

LEUT TYSON: You mean Kormoran, smoke from Kormoran?


A. Kormoran smoke. Yeah.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: We couldn't see any more, we couldn't see our aft ship, when Sydneywent, fall back and came on the, on our portside, he had to give the artillery leading toBrinkmann, because he couldn't see nothing, because all the black smoke we had from the fans.

LEUT TYSON: You just answered a question about the fire on Kormoran, did you see any fire in theSydney?


LEUT TYSON: Whereabouts on Sydney was the fire?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: From, not from the fore-, from the bridge and behind the bridge, I think themost fire were caused by the explosion of the walrus.

LEUT TYSON: OK. Now we talked about damage to Sydney, what about damage to Kormoran? How many,hits did Sydney get on Kormoran, what was the sort of damage, casualties?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Casualties, we had about twenty that was on the bridge and the wireless

cabin, behind the bridge and one through grenade through the ammunition room and didn'texplode, just down on the portside, but the one that hit our funnel, this was the deadly one,because the oil for the dynamos were, had to be warm to have more energy, were pumped touse the warmth of the funnel and then fall back, not pumped, fall back into the machine and this

warmed oil was enflamed by that hit and set the whole machine room into smoke and they

must have killed the leading engineer Lt Commander Stehr, the second was Lt von Gaza andmost of the personnel in the machine, only one or two men came to the tunnel of the screws

out of the machine und could gave the message what happened in the engine room. [GERMAN]Did you understand this?

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Yes, yes.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Oh yeah, I was speaking English.

50


LEUT TYSON: You also mentioned in your description of the battle, you talked about Sydney, then laterbeing on the portside of Kormoran, can you please explain how it came to be that Sydney wason the portside of Kormoran?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: I didn't see it.

LEUT TYSON: Some accounts of the battle talk about it appearing as if Sydney was going to ramKormoran, but you didn't see that?


LEUT TYSON: But you, you do remember, the portside weapons on Kormoran firing on Sydney?


LEUT TYSON: You also talked earlier about an account that said that Sydney fired torpedoes againstKormoran, did you see that or is, is that?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No. It is false in the, in the report, I didn't see it, I only said they could see it

from the bridge, I never saw it. And I, I am the opinion of von Giisseln who was one of theofficers on the deck ship and he saw the Sydney very near, very close and said nobody couldfight anymore, because all of the Sydney must have been dead. But is a good meaning that we

say Sydney fired last torpedoes to hit is, it's a good sign, I, I didn't see it, but let's be.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah, but some of the German officers said that they did, von Giisseln said that they didn't,but others said that Sydney did fire the torpedoes?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yeah, others did, but I didn't see it and, and I had my doubts.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah. Now, given all this firing, had Kormoran, run out of ammunition of some of the guns?Or was the ammunition exhausted?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No. We had ammunition enough. We had enough, but they say we, all inone they had 150 hits of 15 em. That's enough.

LEUT TYSON: Is that something Skeries told you? Or Brinkmann?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, later on, he asked the men on the different guns how much they used.

Some of the gun tubes were hot they have to cool it off in water to shoot more..\

LEUT TYSON: And how far away were the two ships when the firing stopped?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: I remember it was shortly after Sydney had no reaction on the fire that the,\portside guns and no fighting came back so we stopped it. And we saw the, nothing came fromSydney, no torpedo, no hit anymore from the 15 em.

LEUT TYSON: What sort of time was it then, was it twilight, was it night? Still daylight?

51


MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, it was twilight.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah. And was, was Kormoran still able to maneuver at this stage and move or were herengines in trouble?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: We heard, also, I remember, that Stehr gave the message: "We have to

leave the engine room." And I don't know if they could get out so Captain Detmers sent a sailordown to give the message from him to Captain Stehr, but he came back and he said: "Nobody

can get into the engine room everything is burning there." And I remember that in the momentwhen Sydney came on the portside there was a "brrrrrrrrrr" and the turns of the motors came toan very high rotation and then stop, that was the end of our engine and together with the end of

the electric energy coming from the transformators.

LEUT TYSON: Can you say, please, Herr Messerschmidt, what was your last memory of Sydney, your lastvision of her, what did you see, the last time you saw Sydney?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Because I had to set the scuttling chest, together with Rotzien. And I talked,

we were the last, Rotzien, Captain Detmers, and myself, and I said it's, twenty minutes are left,

then it, and so, Captain Detmers, had the flag, we were taking back, one man, the Rotzien, had a

mattress around the belly and through the fire got the flag back and so we left the ship, and

together with Captain Detmers - he was the last one - we pulled into the wind, because the

wind drove Kormoran away from us. And my last impression was the explosion, the small

explosion of the chest, and the oil banker, but the big explosion were the three hundred mines

in one shot, hundred meter high, and a very big bang, light, and everything, not into our boat,

but around our boat, fell down, so Kormoran went down, the stern, the last I saw was the bow

and ...

LEUT TYSON: Could you still see Sydney in the background at the point Kormoran went down?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, no, no. Not from the boat. That was too, aboard the ship we could see

the flames of the Sydney far away...

LEUT HARPER: On the horizon?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: ...but not in our boat. I beg your pardon?

LEUT HARPER: Horizon?


LEUT TYSON: So what, the last time you saw Sydney, can you please explain what you saw on Sydney?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Only a fire-shower.

LEUT TYSON: Yep.

52


MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Like the, the sun setting down.

LEUT HARPER: When you abandoned ship, what was the weather like? I know it was dark. What was the

sea-state? Was it smooth?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, it was, was motion in the sea. I think about, the waves about, by three

orlour.

LEUT HARPER: Metres?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yeah. No, no.

LEUT HARPER: Per foot? OK.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Ah, we had good boats, but they are very light. We could row away from

but...

LEUT HARPER: What was the water temperature? Can you remember? As in, not what was the

temperature, but was it cold?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No. It must be, no, some of, those who, had no boat or had a bad boat, for

instance, the first rubber boat, with about sixty aboard, injured, and the medicine personnel,

capsized because they forgot to set the, route stiffening. And two of this rubber boat, they

swam back, naked, to Kormoran, went on board Kormoran, took something to have clothes on,

and came into our boat and told the story. Yes, the water mustn't be, wasn't, cold in the night,

but not the water.

LEUT HARPER: Yeah. OK.

LEUT TYSON: Why was it that, Detmers had to abandon the Kormoran? Why couldn't the fires be fought?

Why couldn't damage control be set up?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Because the, entire fire extinguishing system, didn't use. We couldn't do it

by minimise you can touch a big fire, and the danger was the fire crept to the mines.

LEUT HARPER: But the fire at the time was in the engine room, mainly. Was it not?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes. Mainly.

LEUT HARPER: Mainly in the engine room. OK.


LEUT TYSON: But was it spreading to other parts?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: But mostly lost aboard the ship was the personnel on the engine, of the

engine.

53


LEUT TYSON: But were these fires beginning to spread? Or was it just the fear that they would hit the

mines?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes. The temperature in the mine deck came up.

LEUT HARPER: And would those mines have exploded if, if they got too hot?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: They shouldn't. They shouldn't, fire shouldn't do anything, no harm.

LEUT HARPER: No.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No. But if you, you have an explosion you initiate the finding in it was not in

the first place, the fire was six minutes after the first explosion, the small explosion, was, we

saw it, it was a very little bang, and then came the big bang.

LEUT HARPER: Did, is it fair to say that Captain Detmers thought it was safer to abandon ship and run the

risks of the perils in a, in a lifeboat, than to stay on Kormoran?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Well, I had to have a talk with my Commander. The Commander is a man

who is of the opinion that a Captain does not leave his ship as long as the flag is flying. And I

told my Commander: "Captain, you cannot sink with the ship, I will take care that the flag is

coming and that the ship sinks." And then he arrived at the decision to detonate the ship, to

secure the flag, go into the boat, and everything I told him happened. He had moods, as you say,

he was a bachelor, without family, and he said: "This is my ship, I'm only going under when I

have my flag."

A. I was, I got to talk to my commander, and he was one of those captains who believed that you cannot

abandon a ship if you don't have the flag with you. And so I went up to my captain, and I told him "Don't

worry, I will take care that we get the flag, and I will also take care of scuttling the ship, so don't worry

about that", and he was a bit, he had certain feelings about this because he was a single person, so I

think he might have had the idea of going, of staying on the ship even though it would sink.


LEUT HARPER: But did, did Captain Detmers consider it more dangerous to stay on the ship, and I

understand there's a fire in the engine room, but to abandon a ship and put everyone into

lifeboats, a long way offshore, and a long way from home, a long way from neutral ports, you're

off the Austrian coastline, he must have considered that that was better than staying on the ship

with the dangers of the ship, in other words, it was more dangerous to stay on the ship than it

was to put into lifeboats and all the uncertainty.

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Did you understand it or would you like me to translate it?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, please. The main issues.

54

ROI.010.0117_R


INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Was Captain Detmers someone who said that, which danger is greater, the

danger to stay on the ship or is the danger greater to abandon ship here, since we are so far

away from home and from all neutral areas, so close to the Australian coast, where there is

enemy country?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Well, it was like that. .. Detmers saw himself as leader to an increasing

degree, he was the youngest commander of the armed merchant cruisers, he came on board as

a lieutenant commander} and before he was commander on another destroyer} Hermann

Schoemann. But he more and more grew into this global duty to I carry out trade war,

independently and on all oceans without a special order from Berlin. And he identified himself

very much with this ship. His ship. He suffered when we had these engine breakdowns, and the

many bearing failures.

A. OK. Detmers was one, he was the lowest rank, he was also one of the youngest commanders of all

raider commanders, and he grew with his task of leading very independently during a war on a global

basis, all around the world, without having special orders from Berlin all the time, but he grew into

this position more and more, and he could feel with the ship, he identified himself with the ship. He

also felt bad when we had all this trouble with the engines what we had before.

LEUT HARPER: Yeah.

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Ok, go on.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Well, one can say he was standing in the front, and I can still see him there,

and I was saying: "Captain, I guarantee you that. " And that's why he was the last one to leave,

and he was saying: "I don't want that the fire extinguishes on the ship all the sudden, and that

the ship -for whatever reason - falls into the hands of the enemy." That is what he did not want.

He was identifying himself with the ship, and if I guarantee that I will get the flag, and I go off the

ship and I sank my ship myself because I didn't have another solution, and also the possibility of

the survivors ... he was very connected to his crew, and for him it seemed to be the greater task

to save them, and he solved this task.

A. Ok, I spoke to him when he was on the ship and for him it was very important, or he said to me it was

very important that, what I don't want is that the fire seizes at some point and we don't have it under

control, that's why I don't want to leave the ship, so that's when Mr Messerschmidt came up and told

him: "No, I'm taking care of it, the ship is going to sink, definitely.", because otherwise the ship would

fall into the enemies hands and that's what he wanted to avoid and then he also felt tight bonds to his

crew and that's why he thought, Detmers thought, it would be better to rescue them and to go into

the lifeboats,

LEUT HARPER: What was the concern about the ship falling into enemy hands? If it was burnt out it was

not gonna be of much use to the enemy. After all, it's a merchant ship that's been converted to

be an armed raider, how could that have been of use to the enemy?

55


MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: That was not his question. The fact that his ship, wheatear completely

burned out or whatever but that his ship falls into enemy's hands, and he did not make sure

after he had taken down the flag, that was his ,point of honor'. It's a plain sailing, isn't it? And I

have to add that - I was in the last boat with him together - we got to know from... he was

talking to an officer, and he said: "No, we're looking for the Sydney", and that was the first time

we knew that it was the Sydney, and the second, he was asking: "Did you find any of our boats?"

Then the man told us: "Yes, as far as I know there have been found six to eight boats, but there

is neither a trace of Sydney nor of her framework." And Detmers turned around immediately:

"This is my last position.", and I keep asking myself, this position that Detmers stated, where

thousands of people...and this is almost the position where the derelicts were found. He

immediately wanted to cooperate to help to do everything to find Sydney.

A. That was definitely not Detmers' idea, to have any concerns about, or, well it was Detmers' point was,

"This is my ship", and he identified himself so much with his ship that no matter in what state this ship

was, it should not go into enemy's hands, and I needed the flag to go to abandon the ship.

LEUT HARPER: Is it also a case of, of honour?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, yes, yes.

A. Yes it's his point of honour, just a question of honour, basically. And the next, sorry I'm not quite sure

about it, when, well, you were in the ship, in the lifeboat, with Detmers...


A. That's when he told: "Let's go back and fight our position?" Or when you were told about the Sydney,

or when did you find out that this was the Sydney the other ship?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: When we were brought back on, by the Centaur to Carnarvon and the first

officer of the Centaur asked me: "Who's the Captain?" and then he brought in to an officer,

there were not very much officers in the Carnarvon, but he told him and he was brought two

Perth maybe, I don't know exactly, together with the first officer, and he was asked, he was told

that the cruiser we had met was Sydney and they didn't find it 'ill now, we were rescued on the

25'h, about weeks later, and in that case, he said: "We didn't find, we did found your lifeboats,

but we didn't find the Sydney and no man of the Sydney is found living", so he was prepared to

be cooperating to find the Sydney and to find, he gave the position to help finding Sydney.

LEUT HARPER: Just one last question on abandoning ship. Is it the case of someone like Captain Detmers,

a captain of a raider, it was an important question of honour that raiders did not fall into enemy

hands, and that therefore, it was important, having regard to the fires on the ship and

everything else that it was better to blow the ship up than allow the ship to be captured by the

enemy?

56


INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Was that a question of honor, that in any case it was more important to sink

the ship instead of allowing the ship to fall into enemy's hands, even though it is completely

burned out and actually useless?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: That is a decisive question you're asking me. For Detmers it was a question

- I will fight as long as the flag is flying. But I know the story of Captain Rogge and the Atlantis,

which was captured by a British cruiser... the name...5heffield?.. I don't know, but anyhow, I

know he wanted to sink his ship or he even did sink it, all I know is that the cruiser did not do

anything else because he was fearing that he will be attacked by German submarines in the

North Atlantic just like the destroyers that were with the Bismarck and that feared that there

are torpedoes .. no submarines, and Rogge's crew was brought to Bordeaux by the submarines.

50 Rogge had a different feeling, being responsible for his crew, and he sank his ship himself.

Detmers would have never done that. That was to be feared.

A. That's a very, very decisive and very important question you ask me, I think Detmers was the last one

to sink the ship, himself to scuttle it, not like Captain Rogge on the Atlantis, who was brought up by a

British cruiser, or even, also like the destroyer Bismarck, then those they had, they also identified

themselves quite much with the crews, and they had their crews brought by u-boats to Bordeaux,

and, yeah that's basically it. There were some more details which ...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Rogge firstly wanted to save his crew, the ship was...

A. OK, Rogge's idea was rather to, to rescue the crew

LEUT TYSON: Sorry, we need to just have a pause for the tape. [... ] We are now back recording and we've

changed the tape. At what time was the order given to abandon ship on Kormoran?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: When it was clear that we couldn't extinguish the fire, we had no energy

and we saw that the fire came nearer and nearer to the mines, so he felt himself responsible,

everybody.

LEUT TYSON: But do you remember the time, like 2200 hours, 2300 hours?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: I think the encounter lasted about 20 minutes; maybe it was 17:30, just

before 6 hours.

LEUT TYSON: Ok, and how long did it take, the process of abandoning the ship?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: The first boats came off, the small boats, more than one hour from the ship,

then were left about 120 together with 18 officers. The only officer who came with the first

boats was Buntjes because it was a bigger one, but later on, von Giisseln take over because he

was swimming!

LEUT TYSON: He jumped off the side of the Kormoran?

57


MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, he jumped off, and he told himself, he just swam into the boat of

Buntjes. And Buntjes was a very, not a type of officer and von Giisseln said: "Is there a place on

board for an old sailor? [GERMAN]: Is there any space on board for an old sailor? Did you get

that?

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: You already said it perfectly. [ENGLISH] He said it just like yeah: Is there a space

on board for an old sailor?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: He was lifted on board and then he was called later on as Captain Bligh,

because no more water breathening, he took everything under him and he brought his boat

together with us and was saved by the minesweeper Yandra.

LEUT TYSON: Were you able to use all of your lifeboats, or were some damaged in the fight?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: In the fore ship we had no fire, but we could, the, ten-ton heavy boats, iron

boats, we had no energy but we had two tackles and it lasted about two hours to get out both

boats. It, to my, I think I about, twenty-nine or twenty hour to midnight.

LEUT TYSON: And there was a Leichtschnellboot on Kormoran. Was that used at all, at any stage?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, no. This was just as the mines, it didn't see any...

LEUT HARPER: Any action.


LEUT TYSON: So, it wasn't used at all in the battle against Sydney?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, no. No, no.

LEUT TYSON: Was it used to tow lifeboats away from Kormoran?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, no. No, no. It's belonged to get magnetic mines to the harbour, this isspeed boat. But Detmers didn't like anything from the ship to be away. Nor the speed boat, northe Arado fighters.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah.

LEUT HARPER: So that, that was basically never used?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: The Arados they're very, they was damaged when we got it from out of thewater and then they "brrrr", the wings were off and had to be repaired. He didn't like to be

responsible to get that everybody on board was the safe things and the speedboat, we tookthem over in Friedrichshafen and Captain Detmers and I was, very nice to have as a speedboat inpeacetime, but not, I never, maybe in Berlin somebody had the idea to make these boats to getmagnetic mines, in the night, in harbour, in Port Wellington or somewhere, and get back. That's

an idea, but not the idea of Captain Detmers.

58


LEUT TYSON: What supplies went into the lifeboats? Like water, food ...?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: A lot of. .. Detmers was busy to get boats from other ships, and he, put themon deck of our ship, he didn't like it, but he said we can use it when we get the Kulmerland- our

boats were not very good. There were, some of them were broken from the fire, but Iremember that these boats were the boats which saved only one part of the crew.

LEUT TYSON: But the supplies that went into the lifeboats, like food or rations. Did that happen? Maps,

did they go into the lifeboats with the men?

ROI.010.012LR

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: That's another question. I told to Forster, we had to see the water

containers of the lifeboats, they were in a very bad condition, and Forster told me he was aBerliner. What an idea! When we get in engagement with a warship and need the lifeboats wenever have to use them, because we had no chance to have them. So it were, we had the lastboats, we had the, had water tanks, were full of green "bluer", and you couldn't, und what, for

sixty in the boats, we had to ration it.

LEUT TYSON: Do you remember whether Greter went back to remove torpedoes or fire torpedoes fromKormoran? Do you have any knowledge of that?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Only from Greter himself, he told me that he, Detmers told him to, get off

the torpedoes, underwater torpedoes, that to shot away not to hurt anything.

LEUT TYSON: Yeah.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Because an explosion maybe.

LEUT HARPER: Before the ship was abandoned, do you know if von Malapert destroyed codes and enigma

machines in the WT office?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: I have material as the adjutant, but, I saw, I see the ship burns and when we

knew we get everybody from board, I was sure that Captain will order to shuttle the ship.

LEUT HARPER: Yeah.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: So it won't necessary.

LEUT HARPER: There's no point, OK.

LEUT TYSON: Now, you were in a life boat with Captain Detmers?


LEUT TYSON: How many days were you in that life boat for?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Sixty two.

LEUT TYSON: What, what did you eat during, in the life boat?

59


MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: I don't remember. Yeah, some zwieback, ship zwieback.

A. Dried bread basically.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: But only very small rations.

LEUT TYSON: Did Captain Detmers ever say to you, in the boat or either before you abandoned ship, did

he say to you or the men/ IIlf werre ever interrogated} this is what werre going to sayll or/ IIThis is

what you should say".

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yeah, we're not prepared for an interrogation. That is a little fault. But

everybody on the, they could say what they meant, as we knew to that time when we were

interrogated, that Sydney was our enemy. And they didn't find him. And we had orders, I told

my name, when they asked me whether we had throw mines, I had no answer, but we had four

Chinese from the Eurylochos. And they saw it, everything we told, they didn't say that we

murdered somebody. They were good in, they've got money and they had a good job on the,

and they were saved. And they even, in the boats, the safe boats, as normal paraporter, crew of

Kormoran.

LEUT TYSON: So, were, no instructions were ever given to the men, this is what to say interrogations...

LEUT HARPER: Or this is what not to say.

LEUT TYSON: ... this is the version, yeah, this is not what to say.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, because apparently nobody anticipated that in case like this the same

thing that happened to the crew of Pinguin could happen to us.

A. No, because nobody had ever anticipated that such a case would happen and that the same thing that

happened to the crew of Pinguin would have the same happen as to the crew of Pinguin.

LEUT TYSON: A quick question about the Arado sea plane, was that ever used to do reconnaissance over

Western Australian coast or any part of Australia?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: No, not Australia, but we had this Greek ship, and the first stopped it at

night, and the first officer of this Greek ship, he came away with the boat, and so Detmers

ordered Ahl and the Arado to start and find this boat and that is the only one effort we had with

the Arados to find this boat, then brought it back to us.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: It was a British officer who did the job.

LEUT TYSON: Captain Detmers didn't like using a sea plane much, or?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: But he said, "If I had a catapult, would be better", as we had to have slow

still water to get him out and to start him. But we had no good use for it.

60


LEUT HARPER: How did you get it back on? I don't, I can't picture, it's just my own interest. But, how did,

how did you get it back on? So, say it's a flat seat, both of one or two, with plain lands.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Yes, land and start is not the problem.

LEUT HARPER: But how, how did you get it on, on the ship?

INTEPRETER [GERMAN]: Back into the ship. Who do you get it back into the ship?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Well, we had a crane, a crane with a hawser, there is was eingepickt. ..

LEUT HARPER: So you use the ship's derrick to lift it, the ship's crane?

INTEPRETER [GERMAN]: The derrick...the crane, the ship's crane.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, yes. In in the Indian Ocean it was like that, even if you have untroubled

water, there always is a permanent swell. And this movement caused the sensitive Arado to

bang its wings against the ship's side, and thank God we had a second Arado for the space parts,

to replace them. We did ...

A. What happened when we picked, tried to pick up the, the Arado, the airplane, with the derrick, and as

you have a permanent swell in the Indian Ocean. What happened the wings of the airplane crashed

into the side of the ship and were destroyed, and luckily we had a second airplane at, for spare parts.

LEUT HARPER: I understand.

LEUT TYSON: Now, Herr Messerschmidt, I'm about to come to the final main topic, which is to get your

response to some of the theories that have been advocated. But I want to ask you two other

quick questions first. You mentioned to us this afternoon that you actually had come across

Sydney in the 1930's before this account. Can you please explain, for the benefit of the tape,

when you first came across Sydney?

INTEPRETER [GERMAN]: I would like to ask you two or three short questions or one in particular before

we come to the final main topic before you mentioned that in the 1930s you had a meeting with

the Sydney.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No. Precisely this was on Christmas 1935

A. No, to be precise, it was 1935 Christmas time.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: It was in the harbour of Cadiz, in the South of Spain.

A. That was in the harbour of Cadiz, in the port of Cadiz in the South of Spain.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Sydney came from England and was going home to Australia, she was

brought into service there, and I think she had had a former English name from an English

cruiser. And at that time all of South Spain was communist. We were happy we had the Aussies

61


and they were happy to have us. We were visiting each other and we had a drink, and that was

the first time in my life - I had learned pretty good English at school - I came acquainted with

"strine". I will never forget the sentence one of them said to me: "There is no lady on the railway

station. {(

A. OK, I'll just translate that. We were there, and the Sydney was coming back from the UK, was going to

Australia, it was her first trip, and it had another name before. Anyway, in the south of Spain where

we were at the time, there were all, we were surrounded by communists. So we were quite happy

that we had each other. They were happy they had us, and we were happy we had them. And we

visited each other, had a drink with them, and I was always quite good at English in school, and then,

but this was the first time I had a chance to learn "strine", and, I don't translate the sentence he said

before} I don1t even

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: "Friday is payday"

LEUT HARPER: Very good. Very good.

LEUT TYSON: Now, another interesting episode that you reported is that the ship, the Straat Malakka, you

actually saw the Straat Malakka? Can you please tell us when you saw the Straat Malakka?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: We left Melbourne on the 21st of January 1947. That was my 32'" birthday,

and just opposite to the Atlantis, on the pier in Melbourne laid Straat Malakka, the ship we were

disguised in.

LEUT TYSON: OK. Now, I wanna come to the final set of questions.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Good.

LEUT TYSON: And we are very grateful for the patience you've shown and the assistance you've given to

the enquiry. Now, as you know, there have been a number of books that have been written

about this encounter between Kormoran and Sydney. People have raised theories, all sorts of

different theories involving different versions of the battle to what you've given us today. I want

to put some of these theories to you, and get, whether you agree with them, whether you

disagree with them, and your evidence about that. Now, one set of theories suggests that there

was a third party involved in this encounter. For example, it is sometimes said that a Japanese

submarine was cooperating with Kormoran to sink Sydney. Is it true that a Japanese submarine

was cooperating with Kormoran to sink Sydney?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No! There was no Japanese submarine. That is a Michael Montgomery's

fantasy.

A. Definitely no. There was no Japanese submarine. This is just something that comes out of the fantasy

of Mr Montgomery.

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LEUT TYSON: Another theory suggesting third party involvements suggests that Kormoran might have

been cooperating with a German u-boat to sink Sydney. What do you say to that?


A. No.

LEUT TYSON: Another version suggested Kormoran, had set a trap for Sydney, perhaps operating with

another German raider, or Vichy French submarine, or an Italian naval vessel. What do you say

to that?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: That is absolutely impossible; there was no armed merchant cruiser. We

were one of the last ones out there, and we know, where armed ... but at this time there was no

other German armed merchant cruiser in the Indian Ocean.

A. That's absolutely impossible. There weren't any, there were only very few auxiliary raiders, auxiliary

cruisers at that time, and we were one of the last ones, and definitely the only one in the Indian

Ocean.

LEUT TYSON: Now, other theorists talk about Kormoran and Sydney being involved in a battle. But they

present an alternative version of the battle. For example, some people have asserted that

Detmers had actually pretended to surrender in the Kormoran, and he'd lured Sydney in. What

do you say to that?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: All I can say about this is that it is not true. I was in communication with

Detmers for the entire time before and during the battle. I heard every word he said, including

the words: "Well, our disguise is well; he will soon wish us a good journey." But he never said

any things of that kind. Detmers was not a person who surrenders.

A. That's not true, because I was the whole, during the whole battle I was in communication with Mr

Detmers, and I heard including the words "Well, our camouflage seems to be quite all right, I think,

probably they wish us a good, safe journey". And it's absolutely untrue, and that there was anything

happening like this.

LEUT TYSON: Another version of this theory suggests that one of the things that Detmers did as a trick of

war was, that he pretended that the main engines were out of action on Kormoran, or it had

some sort of a medical emergency, and that lured Sydney in. What do you say to that?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Did not happen, no.

A. No, impossible. I have to add something to the translation before, Detmers, is a man of honour, and

he would always fight and he wouldn't do things like that.

LEUT TYSON: Another version of this theory says that an underwater torpedo was fired first before any

guns were fired, and that this was a trick against Sydney. What do you say to that?

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MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Did not happen, no.

A. No, impossible.

LEUT TYSON: OK.

LEUT TYSON: No, obviously, too, one of the aspects of this encounter is that there were no survivors of

Sydney. And some writers have put forward theories as to why there were no survivors of

Sydney. And I'd like to just get your response to two of these arguments. One of these

arguments is that the survivors of Sydney in the water were machine-gunned. What do you say

to that?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: We did not have any machine guns besides the two that are permanently

on the ship, and Detmers would have never allowed to shoot swimming defenseless people. I

can name an example, when we torpedoed the Eurylochos in front of Sierra Leone, many of the

Chinese crew jumped off board, and there were radio transmissions. Detmers wanted to leave

very quickly. And a very young sailor of ours had thrown a rope with a life buoy overboard, and

Detmers stopped so we could get this man, it was a Chinese. The next day he had his crew lined

up and told Wend roth - who now lives in Hamburg - "Wend roth, I am not punishing you this

time. But next time you do this, you are putting a ship with a crew of 400 men into a great

danger to save one person. As a seaman{( - he was a professional seaman - ) understand that

and I complement you on it. But as a soldier on an armed merchant cruiser you must not do

that, because we are in war." That was his personal attitude about people in distress.

A. That's absolutely impossible, 'cause we only had two machine-guns and they were fixed on both ends

on the boat. And Detmers would have never allowed to machine-gun people swimming in the water.

Might, as an example of this might serve, when we were before Sierra Leone and we sank the

Eurylochos, is that the name?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Eurylochos, written Eurylochos.

A. Eurylochos, many of the Chinese crew jumped over board and they were all saved. But then Detmers

wanted to get away quickly, and obviously one person was still in the water, and one of the young,

very young seamen threw a life ring after him with a very long line, so the ship had to stop and we

rescued this person who was in the water, the man over board. But the next day, Detmers had the

whole crew coming up to the ship and told this in front of the crew, to this very young man "As a

seaman/ as a merchant seaman/ itls all right what you1ve done} but now we are in war/ and you

endanger the life of 400 people on our ship by rescuing one person, which was not all right. I forgive

you because you were trained as a seaman/ but now we are at war/ remember this for the future./!

LEUT TYSON: And apart from machine guns were hand guns, pistols ever used to damage a Sydney

survivor in the war?

64

ROI.010.0127_R


MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No. We did not have any personal weapons on board, besides the guns

that were there. And I cannot remember, German officers, naval officers did not need pistols.

We did not have any other guns than the daggers.

A. We didn't have any personal weapons on board, and I don't remember seeing any officer of the

German Navy wearing weapons, the only weapons we had was ...

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Stiletto or...

A. Stiletto, no, no a...

LEUT TYSON: A dagger?

A. Yeah, a dagger, yes.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: The silver things we never use it in the German Navy any more.

LEUT TYSON: Did you in fact even see any Sydney survivors in life rafts or jumping off Sydney?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, no, no, no, no.

LEUT TYSON: Sir, you have been very helpful and patient with my long questioning, we've been here now

for some hours. I thank you very much on behalf of Commander Jack Rush for giving us the time

today. It's a very important event in Australian naval history. Do you have any final comment

that you want to make about Sydney or anything like that?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: We had a Lance Corporal on board, Meier. Half a year before that, Dr.

Habben's father came to me as a division officer, and he said: "Listen, you have to prepare

yourself for a funeral at sea. Meier has lung cancer. I will have to take him out of service and not

tell him what's going on". And he had a wonderful time on a deck chair. And Meier was in a boat

with me and went through the entire rescue tour. No, it was in Dr Habben's boat, well in the

first boat, next to Meier. And Dr Habben gave Meier to the Australians and told them: "I've got a

man here with lung cancer. Please take him out and put him into a hospita!." In March 1942 the

Swiss Consul was visiting us/ who represented German interests in Australia} and he sometimes

visited us. And this Swiss Consul told me about a couple in Australia, in Western Australia, who

lost their only son with the Sydney. And he showed us pictures, that this Lance Corporal Meier

was carried to his grave on a mounting by Australian soldiers. And this woman told him: "Tell the

Germans that we will take care of the grave of their soldiers as if it was our own son's grave."

And then we sat down and asked ourselves what responsibility we took on, with the sinking...

that is not our blame, that, the only possibility you could've done it, that these people would

show so much honour and love towards a sick soldier of ours. That really touched us. And I must

say, I still remember the meeting on Christmas 1935 with the Sydney, and I must say it was a

heinous war which led us against each other. But I gladly went to the oak in Melbourne with a

wreath on behalf of the commander in 1974, and we were guests in the club. I have to say,

whenever we commemorated our crew in Laboe in the time after the war we always laid down a

65


wreath for the Sydney. But we cannot change it. It is a destiny which the ship and the crew

suffered from, for which, let's put it that way, we were not responsible.

A. OK, we had on board one of our seamen, Mr Meier, he was actually he went on the ship, on the

life boat with Dr Habben. And he, Dr Habben, was the doctor on board. He told me before all

this happened, that we have to do something with Meier, because he's having lung cancer, I

should make preparations to have a funeral on sea for him. Then, after the rescue, this Meier

with lung cancer was also rescued in the boat with Dr Habben, and when this person was

rescued, we had, gave him to the Australians and told them, they should bring him to the

hospital, and, where he finally died in March 4-, 1942. That was also the time when the

Ambassador of Switzerland, who represented the German, the interests of Germany during that

time in Australia, visited us a number of times, and then we found out that a couple of Western

Australia had lost their only son on the Sydney. However, he told us that this couple, no, he

showed us pictures of, how, of the funeral of Mr Meier, during, in Western Australia, and that

this couple who lost their son on the Sydney, wanted to take care of the grave of Mr Meier and

this really impressed us a lot. And then, we went, at this moment, we were aware of the

responsibility that we had at this moment when we destroyed Sydney. However, it was a cruel

war that put us in this position. We couldn't change it, and we were just impressed by the, by

the honour and the love given from this Australian people towards us in taking care of this

grave. And also, I always remember the meeting of Christmas 1935, when I was first on the

Sydney and made friends there. And we all know it was a very terrible and horrible war. Also I

remember very well, when I was in Melbourne in 1974 and met and visited the Sydney

Association, and how the warm welcome they gave us. Another point is also, when we celebrate

and commemorate, here in Laboe, which is a village nearby; we always commemorate the

Sydney as well. It's part of our memory of what happened in this terrible time.

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: At the 60 th anniversary in 2001, Captain Mackindle took part in it and I

remember that we both had a speech, I in English, and he in German.

LEUT HARPER: We've got pictures of it.

LEUT TYSON: We've got a photocopy of it. It was in a booklet? Is that it?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: 19. November, yes, yes. We met every day on 19 th November in Hamburg

because Hamburg was the merchant crew on the Steiermark, and we did it till, last time, after 60

years, and in Hamburg are now living not much people anymore from us.

LEUT TYSON: I promise this will be my last question: I've just shown you a photocopy which we got from

the Australian Embassy of the booklet commemorating the 60 th Anniversary of this event, in it

there's a machine, a battle log, an engine log of this encounter, who was the person who wrote

the battle log?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Yes, this is the famous engine room log.

66


LEUT TYSON: There was an engine room log and a battle log?

MESSERSCHMIDT [ENGLISH]: Only for the, for the machine part

LEUT TYSON: Yes.


LEUT TYSON: But is it the case that that Captain Detmers dictated to you in the prisoner of war camp in

Australia?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: No, I was writing what he told me to, and it is possible, but I was not asked

about it in this context, that we had a German typewriter, which has the German umlauts.

Possible, but I don't remember writing an engine room log.

A. I did write the battle report, the battle log, and which

Detmers dictated to me, and it might even be that we had a German typewriter there who was, that

was capable of printing the German umlauts, but I, what I definitely did not write is the engine log.

LEUT TYSON: Ah, OK.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Detmers also told me once: "I reckon I will be put in front of a court martial

in Australia. {(

A. Detmers also told me once: "I think that I'm going to be sued in front of a War Court, Crime of War

court in Australia.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: But in the end there was nothing against us that would proove a violation

of the laws of war.

A. The result is} however/ that were no/ there are no evidences/ therels no evidence/ sorrYI therels no

evidence.

LEUT HARPER: Why did Detmers think that?

INTERPRETER [GERMAN]: Why did Detmers think so?

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: Well, because he said that we were saved with 320 men and the other ship

sunk with all man. And if there had been found anything, once there was said that we had set a

white flag and we wanted to surrender and all these things which are not true, but we had very

few witnesses, there were the four Chinese, who were interrogated and affirmed everything we

said.

A. Just because of the fact that we sank a ship with 640 people and they all died and we were all

rescued, well most of us, 320, and because of the rumours that were going on that we had hoisted a

white flag and that there were only very few witnesses to the points we made and we were enemies

67


and the only four witnesses they were of course the four Chinese, and they all confirmed our, what

we said.

LEUT TYSON: Herr Messerschmidt, thank you so much for your time and your assistance with answering

our questions today, it's nearly, 10 to 9 o'clock here in Kiel. You've been very helpful and

cooperative and we're sorry that we took so long with our questions, but thank you so much for

your assistance with the Cole Commission.

MESSERSCHMIDT [GERMAN]: I gladly did it in the joint effort to finally dispose all these doubts and lies

about this unfortunate story once and for all so that all the relatives of Sydney can finally find

peace.

A. It was a pleasure to do so, especially to put an end to the all the rumours and speculations andcontroversy that has to do with this story and for the relatives of the Sydney to have a quiet andpeaceful life.

LEUT HARPER: Thank you.

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Documents

Messerschmidt Interview Transcript · 2009-07-31 · Messerschmidt Interview1 of 2,12_06_2008 -Transcript Messerschmidt Interview 1 of2. 12 06 2008- Transcript LEUT TYSON: Good afternoon,