McFarlane-Ford Reader (2)

8/9/2019 McFarlane-Ford Reader (2)

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By Al McFarlane and B.P. FordThe Editors

Spike Moss summed it up beautifully. Your Majesty, he said, addressing H.R.M. King Abumbi II, the Fon of Bafut, for years I have beenteaching our children, telling them, You are the sons and daughters of

kings and queens! Sometimes its hard for them to believe that kingship runsin our veins. In a country that enslaved us, robbed us of our freedom anddignity, stole our labor and our lives, and that continues to try to marginalizeour culture and distort our identity, its hard to keep them believing there issomething greater in them than all the negative assaults that come fromoutside. That negativity breeds self hatred and self destruction. That is why our young men are killing each other.

I want to thank you for meeting with the elders of our community. Your visit helps us refresh our own sense of purpose, our sense of sovereignty, our duty to the ancestors and to the Creator, Moss said.

Moss and other leaders of civic, cultural and social serviceinstitutions met King Abumbi II at a breakfast hosted by InsightNews at Sunnyside Caf, 1815 Glenwood Avenue, in the heart of North Minneapolis. King Abumbi II is the hereditary leader of thekingdom of Bafut, which is a region in the northwest of the nationof Cameroon, in central Africa. Abumbi II is the 11th Fon, whichmeans king, to rule the kingdom. His first visit to the United States,the Fon said his mission was to meet with Cameroonians in generaland in particular, his subjects from the Fondom of Bafut, who now live in Washington, D.C., Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Houston and

Twin Cities. He returned to Cameroon Sunday, Aug, 26th, after

completing a three week tour of the U.S. While in Twin Cities, the Fon received a formal welcome by

Minneapolis Mayor R.T. Rybak and officials of Minneapolis Instituteof Art, where his delegation was given a tour of the MIAs extensive

African Art collection. Rybak also gave the royal visitor a tour of theI-35W bridge disaster and recovery area and operations.

H.R.M. Abumbi II, Fon of Bafut with Spike Moss.

His Royal Majesty Abumbi II,

Fon of Bafut following eldersmeeting with the King atSunnyside Caf

Story continues on page 6

F O N A B U

M B I I I

King,elders connect inRoyal visit to community

Photos: studiotobechi


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Top : Liz Moore; H.R.M. Abumbi II, Fon of Bafut; Elizabeth Samuels; Ora Hokes and Kelley Hardemann following elders meeting withthe King at Sunnyside Caf. Bottom (left to right): Reverend Ian Bethel, Pastor of New Beginnings Baptist Tabernacle; Reverend

Randolph Staten, Co-chair of the Coalition of Black Churches/African American Leadership Summit; H.R.M. Abumbi II, Fon of Bafut;Peter Hayden, President, Turning Point Inc and Clarence Hightower, President, Minneapolis Urban League.

Photos: studiotobechi


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H.R.M. Abumbi II with host, Al McFarlane, Editor-in-Chief of Insight News at the Elders Meeting.

Photos: Suluki Fardan


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Bottom : Victorene Ambe, a member of the Fons Royal Court who resides in Minnesota.

Photos: Suluki Fardan


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Top : Khalil Wright with H.R.M. Abumbi II. Bottom : Kelley Hardemann and Khalil Wright with his grandfather, Insight News photographer Suluki Fardan

Photo: Suluki Fardan

Photo: studiotobechi


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Alice Baker, Sunnyside Caf; Ex-MN Vikings superstar and Hall of Fame professional football player, Carl Eller and H.R.M. Abumbi II, Fon of Bafut

The meeting with Elders of the Black community was a specialhighlight for the Fon, his spokesperson said.

Minneapolis Urban League President, Clarence Hightower asked Abumbi II how he came to be king.

Fon Abumbi II said his being named king to succeed his father, Achirimbi II, the tenth king or Fon of Bafut who ruled over the townof Bafut and adjoining areas (the Fondom of Bafut). Achirimbi IIruled from 1932 to 1968, and was preceded by Abumbi I andsucceeded by Abumbi II.

The Fon said his society is polygamous, and that as the leader of the nation, he is also the leading polygamist. While he has some 25

wives, he said his father had hundreds of wives and his grandfatherhad more than a thousand wives. The idea behind polygamy in his

society, he said, was the belief that every man and every womanshould be married. Since there were more women than men,polygamous marriages enabled the society to achieve the goal of nearly 100 percent marriage among its population. He said divorce

was uncommon.In response to Hightowers question, Abumbi II said he was the

choice of his father and his fathers advisors, and beyond that, he wasthe choice of the Spirit. He said his culture practiced ancestor worshipand that as Fon, he was the principal intermediary between the living and the dead.

He said he was the 400th son of his father. All of the sons wereelegible for selection to succeed the father as king. He said hisselection therefore, reflected the will and guidance of theancestorsthe Spirit.

His father, Fon Achirimbi II is famous for having remarked aboutthe choice to join independent Cameroon or independent Nigeriafrom the British Cameroons in 1961. Achrimbi II called it a choicebetween the Fire and the Deep Sea.

He was considered by many as being progressive and willing toexperiment with new ideas. He was treated with respect by bothcolonial administrators and nationalist politicians, according tointernet information resource, Wikipedia.

The Germans tried to put a puppet ruler in place of the Fon afterthe Bafut Wars at the turn of the century, but failed. The Fon AbumbiI was openly hostile to the Germans, and diplomacy was not pursued.

The idea of decentralized governance by local people was put intopractice in July 1917 in the British Cameroon when the District officerinaugurated an Instructional Court in Bamenda.

This was an assembly of chiefs from surrounding communities who were summoned to be instructed in the new native court ordinanceand to go on to form the new courts.

From 1

H.R.M. King Abumbi II with Al McFarlane

Continued on next page

Photo: Suluki Fardan

Photo: studiotobechi


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The membership of the court consisted of 27 chiefs with the Fon of Bafut Abumbi Iappointed as president due to his role as thesupreme fon, Wikipedia reports.

Bafut is one of the two regions inCameroon (the other being Bali, Cameroon),

where traditional power structures are still inplace. The Fon of Bafut also holds severalimportant administrative positions including that of the head of the North West Fons

Union (NOWEFU), and member of theManagement Board of the North-WestDevelopment Authority (MIDENO).

The Fon participates in virtually all theimportant ceremonies of Bafut. One of themost important ceremonies is the annualdance Abin e Mfor or Dance of the Fon:

This annual event, held in December is alsoknown as the Abin Lela, or Dance of theFlutes. Village nobles play traditional flutesand fire guns to mark the proceedings. It isthe climactic point of the annual ritual cycle,and is supposed to signify the death andrebirth of the year (i.e. a new yearceremony). The ethnic dance is performed intraditional dress. Luminaries of society (theFon of Bafut and his advisors) form a spiralin the centre. The general public dancesconcentric rings around the spiral in acounter-clockwise fashion. Present-day

African American ring dance ceremoniesprobably owe their origins to suchceremonies, Wikipedia said.

Social worker and educator Liz Mooreasked the Fon about the philosophy of education in Bafut. The king said his society

views education as the primary responsibility of the family, particularly the childs motherand father. He said the schools and teachersare partners, supporting parent in their roleas primarily responsible for the education of the child. He said corporeal punishment,administered publicly, in the presence of thechilds parents and peers, is a tool to forceattention and compliance by students.

If a child has not arrived at school fortwo or three days in a row, but instead hasgone to town to be with other er rant youth,the teacher or headmaster will come to thechilds home and tell the parents that thechild has not been in school. Punishment tothe child, in front of the parents might be aspecific number of strikes with a cane, King

Abumbi II said.Himself a lawyer by training, Abumbi II

said he owns several schools as well asherding, and agriculture production, andmining enterprises. His palace in Bafut is ona world list of important structures that areendangered. Some 30,000 tourist a year visitthe palace, 8,000 from the United States,

with almost none of them African Americans, the King said.

Former Minnesota Viking superstar, CarlEller asked what opportunities there are forcommerce between Black Americans and the

people of Bafut. Abumbi II said creating theconnection was a high priority. He said itshould begin with more visits by Cameroonians to the Black community, and,

in reciprocity, visits by Black Americans toBafut, and Cameroon. When you come toBafut, the King said, I will show you thesame hospitality you have shown me.

H.R.M. Abumbi II, Fon of BafutPhoto: Suluki Fardan


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I entered this world at KansasUniversity Medical Center inKansas City, Kansas. But welived in Kansas City, Missouri.My parents' decision to drive pastseveral public and private

hospitals to a hospital across the state line that wouldaccept Black patients was an act of defiance, resistanceand protest. A brother younger than me by two and a half years, and the younger brothers and sisters that followed,were born in the glow of dignity that was the result of

protest and struggle.

Black Kansas City broke the color barrier in hospitalaccommodations, and Black people were no longer forcedto accept substandard medical and hospital services fromthe County General Hospital, regardless of means. Theprotest earned the right to choose.

Brenda Isom was a classmate of mine from kindergartenthrough middle school. We met first in the delivery roomat KU Medical Center. Brenda's mom was in the operatingroom in the early stages of labor. My mother was waitingnext in line. My imminent arrival required that Brenda'smom be rolled out of the delivery room and my mom berolled in. Do you call that breaking in line? I arrived, mymother said, raising my arms skyward, palms open,grasping . . . reaching for the world.

My dearest friends, the two people I adored most besidesmy parents, were my twin cousins Bernard and BurnelePowell. They were six months older than me, but we were

like triplets. As four-year-olds we played church on theback steps of the Powell House, where several generationsof our extended family lived. Mr. Powell owned abarbershop, a dry cleaners and pool hall near the famed18th & Vine -- the historic Black commercial district. Atthe Powell House, the Big House, as we called it, thePowell family occupied the main floor and basement of the huge brownstone-like duplex. Our grandparents and Ithink an aunt and her family lived on the second floor. My

THE GIFT BY AL MCFARLANE [email protected]

MY BIRTH WAS AN ACT OFPROTEST AND RESISTANCE.

Insight was born in 1974 as amagazine-format monthly

publication dedicated toproviding alternative views

and analysis of quality of lifeissues and public policy

affecting the NorthMinneapolis Black community


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mother, father, older sister and Ilived in the third floorefficiency that had two roomsplus a kitchen/breakfast area.

Playing church, Bernard,Burnele and I pretended to beJesus and two of his disciples;preaching with passion, andsinging with power thatredemption and salvation wereat hand. Bernard was murderedat the age of thirty-three. Hehad emerged at the epicenter of the Black Power movement as acivic leader and entrepreneur,demanding and getting a voicefor youth at the table of power.

That conscious youthleadership grew Black politicaland economic might andaspirations in Kansas City. Hewas assassinated following arally for his campaign forMissouri State Senate.Bernard's twin Burnele finishedlaw school in Wisconsin withadvanced law degrees atHarvard. He became Law

School Dean at University of Missouri at Kansas City, aprodigious author and legalscholar and expert martial artist.

In sixth grade the three of us,members of the youth branch of the NAACP Kansas CityChapter, joined older youth andadults manning picket linesoutside hotels that refused toaccommodate Black conventiongoers in downtown Atlanta whowere attending the nationalconvention of the NAACP. Wegot our instructions onpicketing and civil

L-R: Kathleen, Patricia, Alvin Jr., Raymond, Wain, and Gregory McFarlane


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disobedience from Roy Wilkins himself, the nationalpresident of the NAACP.In high school we were among the students who chose toboycott rather than attend the only one-day-a-year "funday" when the local amusement park would allow Black patrons.

At Morehouse College I helped to mobilize studentturnout and participation in a student and community

march and rally to the state legislature led by Dr. MartinLuther King, Jr., which protested Georgia's refusal to seatduly elected Julian Bond because he spoke out againstthe war in Vietnam. The spirit and history of personalinvolvement in civil and human rights advocacy andprotest guided the development of my career in

journalism and mass communications.

Insight was born in 1974 as a magazine-format monthlypublication dedicated to providing alternative views and

analysis of quality of life issues and public policyaffecting the North Minneapolis Black community. Webought the publication from my employer, GraphicServices, Inc., and I spent a year working nights as a

janitor in Wayzata to keep my family afloat while I spentmy days organizing the re-launch of Insight as anewspaper.

We have sought to remain true to the fighting spirit. We

endeavor to stand against and in protest of the incessantbarrage of negative disinformation administered toAmerica and the world as news. And we believe we havea right to speak our truth, even a duty to speak our truth,in the face of power.

While protest and the fighting spirit have remaineddefining characteristics of our work as communicators, inreflection, several principles have shaped thesecharacteristics. The first and greatest principle is love.

Top left: Al McFarlane, B.P. Ford, and James Earl Jones; top right: President Bill Clinton and Al McFarlane; bottom right: McFarlane receives; StairstepFoundation Community Builder awards presentation; McFarlane and Rev. Al Sharpton with McFarlane daughters (l-r) Batala-Ra, Michelle and Kristin.


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Love is the most powerful force in creation. For me, thehighest refinement, experience and expression of love isin the relationship with my life and business partner B.P.Ford. The respect and love we find in each othercontextualizes absolutely everything we do in businessand in life. It guides our reverence for Creation itself anddirects our stake in eternity. It shapes our understandingof and interaction with all other elements of Creation . . .with other human beings and with the physicalenvironment.

The second principle is imagination. We hold that "if itcan be done, we can do it," whatever it is. The limit is lack of imagination or misdirected imagination. Too often ourpeople are nurtured to have low expectations.

The third principle is recognizing that you best helpyourself by helping others. Early on, B.P. Ford and I saidthat our pathway to fulfillment would be in helping othersachieve fulfillment. We discovered that to be anappropriate role of the newspaper as a tool for communitybuilding.

A fourth principle is the value of cooperation andcollaboration. For us, nothing is accomplished byourselves alone. Accomplishment and success is through

cooperation and collaboration with others: employees,business partners and associates, colleagues in theprofession or industry, other businesses, organizationsand agencies. Knowing the value of collaboration led tothe groundbreaking business innovation in the creation of Minnesota Minority Media Coalition and its successor,Minnesota Multicultural Media Consortium. Thewillingness to foster cooperation led to the creation of thesuccessful regional marketing company, Midwest Black Publishers' Coalition.

Finally, an under-girding principle is having the courageto acknowledge and trust your gifts. I am trained as a

journalist, but my ability as a communicator is greaterthan my training. It is a gift.

It is the certainty of the value and power of the gift thathas given rise to our most far-reaching and excitingendeavor, the weekly public policy radio broadcast andinternet webcast of Conversations with Al McFarlane onKFAI 90.3 and 106.7 FM and online at kfai.org. Now intoits 10th year, this unique and powerful program connectsus to each other and creates a platform for presenting ourstory, in our own words, reflecting our interests anddefined by us, to us and to the world. The programharnesses communications technology, amalgamating

Educator Dr. Joe Nathan of U of M Hubert Humphrey Insitute, Minneapols Public Schools Superintendent, Dr. William Green, and McFarlane at live broadcast ofConversations with Al McFarlane Public Policy Forum at Midtown Global Market in Minneapolis.


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live audience programming, radio broadcasting andinternet webcasting, video conferencing, electronicarchiving and print media dissemination to present arobust information and identity experience.

THE UNIQUE VIDEOCONFERENCEBROADCASTS INCLUDED:

Connecting our Lucille's Kitchen broadcast audienceswith Johannesburg and Cape Town, South Africa todiscuss HIV/AIDS in South Africa and in NorthMinneapolis, and to discuss to criminal justice issuesfollowing the close of the Truth and ReconciliationCommission hearings follow the collapse of apartheid;

Talking directly with Jews in Germany regarding theirfight for reparations for state sponsored theft of their laborduring WWII, connected to a Lucille's Kitchenconversation with TransAfrica president and authorRandall Robinson on his book The Debt, What AmericanOwes to Blacks;

Engaging members of Congressional Black Caucus,directly from the U.S. House of Representatives on theissues of education, business procurement in the foodindustry, and telecommunications policy;

Creating stellar programs in partnership with Children'sTheatre Company, connecting area students and activiststo eye witnesses of Birmingham church bombings of 1963 - theme of the CTC production, The Watson's Go toBirmingham; and, the international video conferences

placing Twin Cities high school students in direct contactwith Sudan's Ambassador to the US in Washington D.C.,and with relief and aid workers in Juba, Sudan - extendingexploration of CTC's production of The Lost Boys of

Sudan.

Conversations with Al McFarlane, provides me with theopportunity to do what I love to do, engage my gift of perception and gift of description in the service of myguests, of our issues and interests, and for the benefit of our community.

Our community, our people, are gifted. The unendingwarfare against our sense of humanity, the gratuitousinsult to our dignity and institutional marginalization of our culture seeks to discourage us from discovering,knowing and celebrating our gifts. My job as acommunicator, my work, is to continue talking to ourpeople, saying, "Acknowledge the gift. Redemption is athand."

Public Policy Journalism At Its Best

The weekly public policy radio broadcast and internet webcast of Conversations with Al McFarlane on KFAI 90.3 and 106.7 FM and online at kfai.org


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A L MCFARLANE: Mina Agossi was born inFrance in 1972. Her parents are French andWest African. In her early years she wasdrawn to the stage, following her moms footsteps.She says she loves to travel. She studied theater inmany countries around the world, including Niger,Morocco, and France. When she graduated in 1990,she continued to travel. She spent time both here inthe U.S. and in Spain and returned to France in1992. She found herself singing the blues as a favorto a friend who was also a saxophonist. She saidthat experience changed her life, so much, that sheknew she was going to be a singer. Mina, let me letyou take it from there - how have you developedand emerged as a singer?

MINA AGOSSI: If I tell you really, youre going tolaugh. I wanted to learn Spanish so I was working inSpain, taking care of a little girl . . . When I cameback to France, I had to go to the University to dosomething. I couldnt do theater, which was reallywhat I liked. So one day at the University I went tosee a show at the bar in front of the University andthere was a saxophonist playing with a kind of com-puter electronic system. He was alone. There wasnobody there. I was really impressed. That was thefirst time I could see someone playing with machines.He saw me really having fun, and at the break hecame to me and said, Im sure you sing. and I said,of course, I dont sing. He said, Im sure you dosing. I could see you kind of nod your head andeverything, So I said, No I dont, but if you wantme to sing, why not? You know? Ive never beenvery shy anyway, so I went on the stage and I did Idont know what. But he loved it and this is literallyhow I started. He gave me a tape and he said, I havea show in fifteen days. Please, can you learn thesefour songs? And fifteen days later I had the songs inmy head. I went to the venue. It was a restaurant.There was nobody there. I was scared to death. I sangthese four songs and he gave me five hundred bucks!And I said, Is this the life of a musician? If this is thelife of a musician, I want to be a musician.

Photo: viennajazz.org

Mina Agossi with band members Alex Hile, (bass) (right), and Ichiro Onoe (drums) Photo: Suluki Fardan

Jazz The language of democracy Conversations with Al McFarlane from KFAI FM

Originally printed February 5, 2007
http://www.insightnews.com/http://www.insightnews.com/


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And this is how I quit the university. You have to putyourself into this world, this musical world, which isvery tough. At first it is easy, but later you have to bevery strong in your head in order to continue. And Idecided, Im not going to fail. So I continue.AM: When I watched you perform last night, I hadthe feeling like your body was like music. It was morethan the voice. The voice was huge, but as I watchedyou, I thought If she had a choice, I bet she couldtransform herself away from the physical body intopure sound. Does that make sense to you? That ishow I look at you, as a person who could live, whocould reincarnate as sound.MA: That is so beautiful. Oh wow. Im speechless.AM: James Wright, you are Mina Agossis manager.What do you think? I noticed you last night. You wereinto the music just like I was.JW: You cant watch Mina and not be totally fixatedby what she does. Its an incredible experience. Thebest part of my job is going somewhere new, sitting atthe back of stage looking at the audience, and watch-ing everyones face. It goes from shock to wonder andthey fall in love every time. You cant take your eyesoff her. And you just become part of the music. Iveworked with other bands, and other musicians, butthis is the only time its happened every single show.AM: It is clear that you are so comfortable with your

voice and with sound. I had the impression, Mina,that you have this sort of intense love affair withsound itself. Is that correct?MA: Oh, definitely.AM: What does sound mean to you in your life, yourbody, your spirit?MA: I dont really know if I can explain it, but Imgoing to try. Its just that I hear before what I want tosing. I know what I want to hear, exactly, at the sec-ond it arrives. I know, for the bass or for the drums. Itmakes sense for me. Like it makes sense to me to notplay with harmonic instruments, which is not reallycommon. But for me, it makes sense, because I hearthe bass. I hear the drum and bass. I think this is frommy Benin roots. Benin is a country where the rhythmsare hugely, highly important. Each village has its ownrhythm. And its very complicated - not easy rhythms.They have their own sound. Its not like Mali orSenegal where they use the chords. Its more melod-ic. Benin is very in the ground. The earth is speaking.

The shaking of the earth and the feet on the ground issomething that I feel. That makes my heart beat. Andthen the bass is like the jazz part. Jazz, to me, isdemocracy, because everybody can comment on thesubject, and express themselves. In that sense, thepub music of the seventies and jazz are very impor-tant to my ears. It doesnt mean Im not doing songs- Im doing songs. Its not free, but there are freemoments where everybody can express themselves. Ialso like the people to be able to catch our hands, andnot to be totally lost, so its a mixture of all this thatmakes me hear the sound that I want to hear beforesinging it.AM: And what kind of sense do you get, as a per-

son who is European, who is African, and who isalso visiting this country?MA: And is also American - in my heart. Thatssomething - I think you guys in the States, you havesuch a potential. You are not linked by old rules andold things. You are so fresh. You have everything inyour hands. I believe in the American dream. Letsput it this way - I still believe in the American dream.But there is something that is really surprising fromthe European side. You have a big gun problem, forinstance. And this, it seems to me, fuels the fightingbetween communities - having guns and fighting eachother. I can see a lot of advertisements on the TV andits basically poor people that have guns and shooteach other. And this is going to stay exactly the same,here and in the world as long as, for example, inAfrica, the ethnic-this is going to kill the ethnic-that.My message is stop fighting each other for nothing.Its always sad to see the Italian community fightingthe Black community or Jewish community. This isuseless. In France, for instance, we have to say thatthe communities are really in a pot. Its a melting pot.And really, I dont see a melting pot in the States. Isee the area of the Blacks, the area of the Hispanics.Its not really mixed up. So, this is just an observa-tion. I dont judge anything. I just feel this - you see?That you should all really stick together, because theAmerican Dream is there. Just get rid of that fear andtry to change things, because nowadays, I would say,its a little difficult.AM: Your music is an expression of activism?MA: In a way, and I always say that we are, but itstrue, we are the United Colors of Benetton in myband. One guy is Japanese. Im Black, I mean half Black, half French. Theres a French guy. I wouldlove to have Indian - whoever. I mean - what makesme sad, for instance in the Black community, is thatwe have to justify somehow that were going to suf-fer. And we raise our kids saying, Youre Black,youre going to get it, man. I see some Black par-ents talking to their kids in a way that that tells themyoure already going to suffer, because youreBlack. And this is something that I really think should be taken away. If the parents just start to say,Be proud of what you are and of your work, thats

it, whatever color you are, and not talking only about

color. Like, This is a poor community, youre goingto get it, youre going to fall into drugs. And its socomplicated. And I think the way to change things is

just to avoid fixating on color and just do what youhave to do, and keep on doing this without fallinginto this gun thing, or the drug thing, because its atrap.AM: How did you grow up, and where did yougrow up? Do you have brothers and sisters? Whatkind of family environment produced the attitudethat you have?MA: Its very, very weird. First of all, the nameAgossi is Fon - its from Benin. Its a dialect. And inBenin there are over fifty dialects. What is the use of that? People cant understand - its such a smallcountry, they cant understand each other. We think through language, and if you speak a different lan-guage in the same country, it allows big industries tocome here, take whats in the ground, like cocoa andoil, and just give guns to these different ethnicgroups, knowing theyll shoot each other, allowingthe foreigners to exploit the resources. Agossimeans the one who was born feet first. I was bornfeet first. My mother immediately got trapped intothis ethnic thing. She fell in love with my father. Hewas really, really Beninese, with his culture andeverything. And after a while, she found out that shewould never be able to understand him, but she waspregnant. So she delivered me in France, and hestayed in Africa. He didnt want to go to France,

which is really rare in Africa, because the Frenchdream is like the American dream. They really think theyre going to have a wonderful time, which isreally not the case. So my mother tried to make himcome, but he would not. It took me six years to findmy father in Africa. I dont know if you remember,but around the 80s, between Benin and Gabon, therewas a big fight in the African Union meeting.Beninese people, who are basically intellectuals,decided to move to Gabon because there was oil.And I mean, its always the same thing - oil, oil. Butthe presidents of Benin and Gabon hated each otherand one slapped the others face during the meeting.So all the Beninese at that time got their jobs totallycut off in Gabon. And thats how my father got to be

almost starving when I met him.

Photos by Suluki Fardan

Jazz, to me, is democracy,because everybody can

comment on the subject,and express themselves.


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I saw him only twice because he passed away shortlyafter. So my life was basically living with my motheron the French side, and my mother was wonderful inthe sense that she wanted me to know Africa veryearly. So Ive been traveling around Africa. I startedin Morocco when I was three. Ive been living inIvory Coast, in Niger, and Ive been having such agood time. So the roots were always there, calling meup. I want to know who my father is. I want to knowBenin. And now I have a regular connection with myaunt and I go to Benin regularly and its so strong.And of course Benin used to be a big platform fortransatlantic slave trade. So you have this harborwhere the slaves were brought to come here. So Iguess maybe we have the same blood. And this isvery strong. And its the country of voodoo, whichwas exported to Haiti. So Im really a voodoo child inthat sense! I really started to talk with my aunt and all

this Catholic, and this Muslim and this voodoo mix-ture in the country that is really something to see. Itsso interesting. And this is how I decided to get the dis-tance on every side, on my French side and on myAfrican side, because I would never choose betweenthem. Im half White, half Black, and this is whatgives me, I think, power. In a sense, I cannot choose.I dont like Black people criticizing White people,and I dont like White people criticizing Black peo-ple. I would have to split myself in two, I would beschizophrenic, I cannot choose.AM: On the way here I was talking about my missionand vision as a newspaper owner and communicator.I described myself as a trench fighter or a street fight-er. Thats the spirit with which I attack journalism,

truth telling and writing. My job is to be an advocatefor my culture and my people. And when I say mypeople, typically, a person could assume that meansAfrican or African-American. But my people tome, is bigger than just African people, bigger than

just Black people.MA: And its good to remind ourselves of this.AM: But we start there. We start with where you are.You start with the skin youre in. You start with theparents you came from and the culture that theybrought, and that brought you and them to this place.But then my people ends up being every humanbeing on the planet. But its bigger than just people.People are only part of the equation. Humans are onlypart of the equation.We have to respect living things that are not human,

and we have to respect things that are not living. Wemust know the living and the inanimate are equallyimportant, equal partners in creation. So thats kind of how I approach the whole thing, but I have the feel-ing that you have the same approach and same view,or something like that, because it helps me under-stand, or helps you understand how I hear your music.When I was driving and listening to you, Mina, it waslike listening to the sound of creation or listening tosomething that is so expansive and so big that itseverywhere, and I cant describe it any better thanthat. But the music itself, the sound that youre bring-ing is like breath - it breathes. Thats what I think, Idont know. How does it make you feel to know thatyou have that effect on a listener?MA: It makes me want to give you a big hug. Oh mygod. Its so beautiful, what you say. Im not the onewho can talk properly about what I do. Its just some-

thing I feel and I hear the sound before doing it, so itslike I know what I want to hear, and if you feel that,that means we are on the right path. Because this isexactly what I would love people to feel - this free-dom. And how can this freedom be? It is because youare yourself. I think the problem these days is that the

world is stereotyped. I think its very important thatyou remind people your definition of my people,because for a lot of them, it is only Black communityor this or that, which is not the case, as you said. Itsthe people that feel themselves in connection withyour fight, whatever color or whatever. And thisrespect of the environment, because this is exactlywhat you say - the planet is in danger and we knowthat, and it is not a question of politics anymore. Weare all in the same boat - we know that we go in onehundred years, if we continue like this, there is noth-ing left. And what do we want for the kids, for thefuture? Is that what we want? The people need to startto think by themselves and stop only thinking aboutthemselves and stop only thinking, Okay, I have tofollow this because its a law, because its imposed,because otherwise what is my neighbor going tothink? We really have to start standing up and think-ing for ourselves and rethink the whole system, whichis falling apart in every country of the world, and weknow it. It is like a bomb that is going to explode, andits just a question of time, and we all know that. Sowhat you say is to be street fighter is the same as medoing my music without caring about what peopleused to tell me. Before, when I started it, theyd say,Stop that. When are you going to put in a piano?Youre crazy. Nobody is going to listen to that. Youknow? And if I had listened to these people, nothing

would have happened. And you have to say, Well,this is your opinion, which I respect, but I have theright to be who I am, and I have the right to think what I think, as long as I dont hurt you. The free-dom stops where the other ones starts. So as long asthis is correct, what is the problem if I do what I do?AM: Mina Agossi. Do I pronounce it right?MA: Wonderfully well.AM: Now, I presumed that the name would be eitherItalian or French. Is it?MA: A lot of people think that, but its typicallyBeninese. Agossi and Agoso for the man. Agossi forthe girl. Agossi is the the one who was born feetfirst, and also describes twins.AM: Are you a twin?MA: No, but my mother is a twin.AM: Do you have sisters and brothers?MA: When I met my father, I found out that I havethree brothers and sisters - two sisters, one brother,and my mother got another life and married someoneand had three kids, so I have six.


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AM: So, a big family. How do you get along witheverybody?MA: And Im the oldest.AM: Youre the dean.MA: Yes.AM: Your band is international, intercultural. Themusic is rich and warm and its fun. You can tell thatyoure having fun with the music and having fun withthe musicians. You are enjoying each other and the

joy you share is infectious. James Wright, fromLondon, it was obvious to me last night that you were

just really into this music. How did you and Mina gettogether? How did you become her manager and howdid you connect with her music?JW: I started working for and still do work for thelabel in London which is Candid Records. Mina does-nt actually know this, so itll be a first for her. I think I told her after a couple of glasses of wine a whileago, but I met Mina after about five days of workingwith Allan Bates, the CEO of the company. I startedas the artist development manager - I mean, you knowbetter than most people, the jazz industry is a hardindustry to work and you need everything you can topush it forward to new audiences, and thats reallywhat my job was. I met Mina at the London JazzFestival after five days of working there. Allan intro-duced me and said, Now James, this is Mina andyour job is purely to make her more well-known. Just

make her famous - thats all I care about. And thatwas my first and only task. And thats what wevebeen doing for the last twelve months.MA: Oh, you should invite us every day. You willhear so many things.AM: Mina, tell me, what was in your mind as youdeveloped and chose the pieces to go on your newCD - Well, You Neednt,? Are you impressedwith yourself?MA: No, never. Actually, every time a CD is done,Im only thinking of the next one. Its like, I never lis-ten to that CD myself. If I start to rethink everythingor congratulate myself, I have nothing to do. Its likeI deliver a baby and it has a long life. I cannot controlthe life. Its up to the CD to please or not. Im notdoing music to please, but I do what I feel. So after

that, I dont know. I was feeling this at the time I didit, and Im happy. And of course, after when I doanother CD, I like to listen to the old ones just a littlebit just for little ideas of sounds or things like that.But everything is always brand new and fresh for me.Its like a fairy tale, actually. It happens that one day,Allan Bates got the CD on his desk and listened to itand after maybe fifteen minutes, he wanted to sign meup for five years. So its like a fairy tale. I really wantto say this in a very particular way, because all thepeople that listen to this show right now might think its easy, but its really a fairy tale, something really,really rare. But keep on sending your CDs on because

it can happen. So thats what happened to me, so actu-ally, he signed me up, and then he invited JamesWright to join the team, and he said what he said tohim. And this is like, I feel so much support. AllanBates has big, big ears. I mean hes been producing

Abby Lincoln, Archie Shepp and Thelonious Monk.I mean this person knows all about jazz history. Soits even like, I told you this, James, hes like an uncleto me. Hes more than just the boss of the biggest jazzendeavor label in the UK. Hes a part of my spiritual-ity, and hes 80 years old. And hes like a baby - hesso dynamic. I mean, to love what I do at his age . . . Iknow people who are 40 who are more stubborn, whohave really narrow minds. This person is amazing.Hes seen it all.AM: How does he come to that awareness? James,you might know about his background a little bit.How did you come to the label?JW: Its like a sixth sense. It really is, because, asweve been saying briefly, the music industry is atough one at the moment. The record industry is

dying but the music industry is thriving, and youhave to be clever. You have to outwit the public, andgive them something they havent heard before, andthats what Mina does with her music. Were sellingthe track from the Great American Songbook, and

just turned it over, flipped it on its head. And youneed innovators in the industry to open it up againand to start fresh. And thats what Allan saw - thenext phase for female jazz vocals, and this is whatMina does. You need this, and it opens things up. I tshappened in history, and itll keep happening. Butpeople need to start it. If we sit here for the next twohours and think, is there anyone else in female jazzvocals doing what Mina is doing? You cant think of a name. And thats what its about - its about inno-vation. And thats what Allan saw.AM: Thats amazing. You give tribute to America forthe creativity that has produced this great music. Howdo you talk to your audiences and talk to the publicabout the origin, the source of this music?MA: I just say that I think that everybody who hadthis respect of other communities and have thisrespect of democracy is able to play jazz, but the rootsare American, and Afro-American, which means Afroand Americans. I really love the States. I would loveto be American. I feel like Im American. Its like youhave to sing your heart. You either have the blues oryou dont have the blues. You dont learn the blues.

You have the jazz or you dont have the jazz. I dontbelieve in learning jazz. I really respect the schoolsand for the skills and everything, but the real mental-ity - I would never do another copy of Billie Holliday.I cant put myself in front of an audience singing theway that Billie Holiday was singing.AM: But I hear Billie Holliday in your voice.MA: Thats a compliment. But this is wonderfulbecause I really am inspired by Billie Holliday, butalso Bjork, also the Roots, so many bands, andsome people see Tricky or whatever in my voice, orthey hear things that are really wow, and its beau-tiful, I love that. But I would never be able to singa jazz standard in the style of the sixties or fifties,because I will never be.

You have the jazz or youdont have the jazz. I dont believe in learning jazz.


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n June 12, 2006,Al McFarlane andAdrian Hamilton-Butler, co hosts of

Conversations WithAl McFarlane, inter-

viewed actor JosephPhillips, culture advocate

Vivian Jenkins Nelson, businessowner Monica Hines, healthadvocates Roxanne and RobertTisdale, and Women Ventureexecutive Amy Barringer atKFAI-FM 90.3 Broadcast Studio.The interview was broadcast liveand rebroadcast the following Saturday, June 17, 2006 onIndependent Public Radio (IPR)Network affiliate, KMOJ-FM 89.9.The broadcast started withquestions about Phillips' newbook,He Talk Like a White Boy.

Joseph Phillips
http://insightnews.com/


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Al McFarlane: Tell us about the premise of the book. Why the name, first of all, andwhat are you doing in this book?

Joseph Phillips: He Talk Like a White Boyis about values, about those things that weall share in common, that we inherit, Ibelieve, as Americans values of family,faith, idealism. These are the things thatbind us together as Americans. They tran-scend race. They transcend political affilia-

tion. They transcend economic position.The title comes from something that hap-pened to me in the eighth grade. I was inaccelerated English class, which is like the

gifted programs that we have now. Ianswered a question in class, and a Blackgirl from across the room raised her handand said, "He talk like a white boy."And that was kind of the beginning of my life.That accusation has followed me, as I began

to date as a young man, as I became anactor and moved into show business, and

then as I began to write a weekly column.The accusation changed from "talking like awhite boy" to "thinking like a white boy." And

so this kind of goes to this question of authenticity: What is it to be authentically Black. Who is it that decides?Ultimately, what I would like to do is to move beyond what I consider to be very narrow and constricting definitions of raceand racial authenticity. I would like to move beyond labels and move to some higher ground where we again begin to talkabout the things that we have in common. These things, I find, far more important: the importance of faith, our love of familyin our lives, our love of this great country -- these are the things that I think are far more important and that bind us together.

Al McFarlane: Well, let's put that in context. Tell us who you are. Who is Joseph Phillips? And I raise the question to giveyou a chance to say, "I'm the son of, and the grandson of, and the great-great grand son of . . ." What is the lineage? Andwho are you in the context of your being an American today? You're a Black man. You're African American. What else areyou?

Joseph Phillips: I'm not sure I understand the question, but this is the way I would answer it. You tell me if I missed thepoint. I'm a husband. I'm a father of three beautiful boys, ages 8, 6, and 4. I tell everybody that they are loud, stinky, andashy, just like little Black boys should be. They are healthy, energetic, and bright, and I have been blessed to be given theopportunity to raise them. I am a writer. I'm also an actor. I'm the son of a pediatrician and school teacher. I grew up inDenver, Colorado in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood. So that's kind of where I come from. Does that answer yourquestion?

Al McFarlane: That's part of it, but run back -- who is your grandfather? Who are your grandfathers and great-grandfathers?

Joseph Phillips: No one has ever asked me that question before.

Al McFarlane: And the spirit of the question is what genes make up Joseph Phillips? What is your genealogy?

Joseph Phillips: I'll skip a couple of generations. I'm named after my great-grandfather Joseph Bassilio Phillips who was fromTortola, and that's on my father's side.

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Al McFarlane : I don't know where Tortola is.

Joseph Phillips: Tortola is an island in the British Virgin Islands. Tortola is, I think you can see it from St. Croix, which is U.S.Virgin Islands. My great-grandmother, Elnora Connor was from Florida. My middle name is Connor. I have written downsomeplace where they were married. I have a photograph, actually, in my home of my great-grandmother, and I have a pho-

tograph of my grandmother and my two great-aunts from 1912 or something. And then on my mother's side, I don't know agreat deal, but my grandfather on my mother's side, James Brookes, born in South Carolina, and drove a cab for most of hislife.

Al McFarlane : What's your sense of cultural identity?

Joseph Phillips: That's a very unusual question.

Al McFarlane: And here's where I'm going with it: What's your sense of your racial identity, of being a Black man, and being an African -- I call us Africans in America, but some people choose not to use that language.

Joseph Phillips: I don't.

Al McFarlane : What is your sense of who you are? You're American.

Joseph Phillips: I'm an American.

Al McFarlane : Of African extraction, or --

Joseph Phillips: Well, yeah. People from America come from all over the place. I'm anAmerican. My children are American children. You know, a couple of years ago, I had the great opportunity to go to Nigeria and participate in the Leon Sullivan Summit. And

it's fascinating to me because people are free to define themselves This is the point:people are free to define themselves as they wish. This is part of what's great aboutAmerica, which is that we have a huge blank canvas, and we can wake up in the morn-ing and paint on it what we wish, and then the next day we can say, "I don't really like that," and we can start over from scratch.

Free men can define themselves as they wish. Part of what my book talks about is

this notion that being Black in America is a limited list of things, and that there areother people who are able to define you racially as they wish. In my mind, frankly, it'sa very narrow definition: you must talk a certain way, you must listen to certain typesof music, and more importantly, you must hold certain ideological positions. Thatmakes you authentic? I say that makes you a slave. It has other people defining foryou who you are in a free society. My understanding of the struggle that my

forbearers engaged in was so that I could define myself as I wished.That being said, never was it more clear that I was an

American than when I set foot on African soil. TheAfricans in Nigeria, in my admittedly narrow experi-

ence, were not confused about the fact thatI was not African.

None of us on that plane were African, We werein fact Americans. And I feltvery comfortable with that.

My trip to Africa, as wonderfuland amazing as it was, and I

would go back in a heartbeat,and might have the opportunity this

summer, but it solidified and madevery clear those distinctions.

My children are, again, American chil-dren. They have American values,


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they engage in American traditions. They are not African boys. They are American boys. And that is not to say that I ignore orinvalidate that part of my heritage, but it is to say that I appreciate and celebrate my American heritage. I get into discussionswith people about this quite frequently, but one thing I say is, "You are right, I fly the American flag. You are absolutely right

that I claim my American-ness. I defy anyone to deny me my American heritage, because this American-ness was paid for withblood. It was earned, the old-fashioned way. Our blood is in the soil of the Mississippi, the sands of New England, the redearth of Colorado, where I come from, the rich soil of North Carolina and Virginia, the tobacco fields, the dust of Alabama. Ourblood is in the soil, so I claim this nation as my own, and you are right, I fly the American flag."

Adrianne Hamilt on Butler: You mention in the book the flack that you get for being aBlack conservative. I do believe that the civil rights movement allowed us to be free to

participate in this democracy without being bound by social parameters. Why do youbelieve there is an issue in the Black community with Black conservatives?

Joseph Phillips: The tag onto that question is, ". . . especially given that Blackfolk are so conservative." I think some of it comes from how we define what"conservative" means. Which is again, why, in the book, I really want to move

past the labels, because so often, the labels are arbitrary. It's the values thatspeak to what we truly believe in. So, I tell people that I don't admit readily,anymore, to being a conservative, because I realize that what one personmeans by conservative may not be how I define conservative. For a lot of people that means what your mother tells you not to track into the house,you know, "Boy, I told you not to bring that conservative in here! Wipe thatconservative off your feet." I don't admit to being that. But, if by "conser-vative" you mean someone who believes in equality, someone who believesin the principles upon which this nation was founded, believes in a nexusbetween virtue and liberty, that our rights extend to us from God, not from

other men, in a limited government that derives its just powers from theconsent of the governed, that believes in traditional family structures,

that men should be the head of the house, with God at the head of the household -- that is how I define conservative. And then peo-ple tell me, "I know a lot of Democrats that believe that." And I say,

"Well, exactly my point." We are caught up in the labels. Let's put the labels aside, and let's begin talking about those values. If we'regoing address problems and find solutions, then we're going to have to

be able to talk to each other. Labels get in the way.Let's go to the values.

Adrianne Hamilt on Butler: One of the things that really touched me inyour book was your openness, your ability to say, "I love my wife, but our

marriage is still a work in progress." Or, "I've been a star, but still have my

insecurities." Is there a risk for you in writing a book that says, "Here I am.Here's what I think."

Joseph Phillips: I don't know how to write any other way. The risk, and I've experienced this in thefour years that I've been writing a column, is that when people don't like what you say, and they comment on it aggressively.They say mean things. It's very hard to sort of shake it off. Because I've written very personally, so the negative responses, I

take very personally. And I admit, a lot of the things that people have said, that range from very ugly to down-right nasty havebeen very hurtful. People have said mean things about my wife. They've questioned my sanity, my sexual preference, my racialpride, and on down the list. And quite often they forget their home training when they do it.

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Adrianne Hamilton Butler: I enjoyed reading what you said about your father. You described how he lived. Your relationship to your dad was very important to you. It impacts your life and the lives of your sons. You wrote: "It's a shame that as a socialcurrency, fatherhood has lost such value. A man's honor is cheap. Starlets grace the covers of magazines, celebrating thebirth of their fatherless children, actors, politicians, and any number of professional athletes are seldom taken to task forfathering children out of wedlock." Why do you think it is the case in our society that fatherhood is devalued and what do you

think is the lesson for Black fathers, in particular?

Joseph Phillips: This is new-school. I refer to these values in the book as old-school values. I think there was a cultural shift that happened, because this idea of devaluing fatherhood, fathers not being in the home, raising their children, of abdicating

their responsibilities in the community, that's new-school thinking. Years and years ago, in the face of far more pernicious racism than we face today, outright hatred of Black men and Black peo-ple, Black men were somehow able to honor their women, marry the mothers of their children, raise sons, bring home thebacon, be gainfully employed, value academic success and education, if not for themselves, for their children. This new idea

that we're experiencing now, with starlets on the covers and everyone celebrating, and people standing up, the first thing out of their mouths, "Well, I'm a single mother," and everybody claps, this is new-school and I would like us to go back to the old-school. I think it's clearly no mistake. When you look at men in prison, when you look at neighborhoods run rampant with van-dalism and antisocial behavior, when there is an entire genre of music that does nothing but celebrate nihilism, excess, and

the degradation of women -- this is the result of men abdicating their responsibility for family and for community to other folk.And the problems are not exclusive to Black men, to Black communities, or even to poor Black people. This is an area where Idisagree with Bill Cosby. It transcends culture and economics. And the solution is the same. Men need to step up to the plate.We need to again begin to embrace the notions of heroic manhood. I honestly believe that it is up to us.

Al McFarlane: Gangsters see themselves as "heroic men." The notion of heroic manhood right now is 50 Cent.

Joseph Phillips: That's new-school. There was a time when we used to hang pictures on the wall of W.E.B. Dubois, LangstonHughes, Zora Neale Hurston, Paul Robeson. We hung pictures of intellectuals on our walls. Now we hang 50 Cent. This goes to

this notion of authenticity. Tongue-in-cheek we talk about "talking like a white boy," but the danger is that this becomes socialcurrency which we begin to trade. "Talking like a white boy" becomes "Thinking like a white boy" which becomes "Academicsuccess is acting white," which becomes "marriage is acting white," which becomes, "being gainfully employed is acting white."We begin to constrain the definition of blackness so that it becomes, I can't find the word, not anti-social but anti-productive. Itbecomes behavior that doesn't move us forward.

Al McFarlane: Flip the script. Are you saying act white and run the world?

Joseph Phillips: You give credence then to those who would call old-school values white values. What I'm saying is that these values of family, faith, and freedom are not white values. They are the proper values. They were values that Black peo-ple at one time embraced. They not only allowed us to survive but to thrive. Two generations after slavery, we were an educat-

ed and literate people. We had university trained doctors, lawyers, busi-ness men, and so on. Then there was this cultural shift where old-schoolvalues became white values. In order to be 'authentic', we reject them.

Al McFarlane: Vivian Jenkins Nelson is the founder of InterRace. This isa fascinating conversation and you've got perspective on this issue of responsibility and accountability in our community and for our people.I wonder how the ideas you've heard so far resonate with both your

experience and observations, as a Black woman and an elder inour community?

Vivian Jenki ns Nelson: Having grown up, coming out of the Deep-South, I was very active in the civil rights movement. I'm called a civil-rights baby, which means I'm old now. But, I had similar experiencesgrowing up. My parents had me take French so that I could wipe the ghet-

to, wipe Alabama, out of my voice, so that I could have a better chance atgetting a job. What they did not wipe out, however, was the notion that

Vivian Jenkins Nelsen


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there is room for all of us, however we find ourselves, and that authenticity is not about talking a certain way, it's about living acertain way. I think that part of what our community has problems with, as far as what they have known of traditional Blackconservatives, is that they have not been in the community. They have not worked to help poor people, shoulder to shoulder.So I don't see it so much as how you talk as how you live.I have had the wonderful opportunity of going to Africa and being mistaken for an African. That was like coming home for me. Imean people talked to me in the local language. But anyway, the whole sense of authenticity and belonging is one that is verypainful. If you talk like we talk, that is often questioned. I have had my authenticity questioned many times. But I say now thatI live in the "ghetto," down the street from Al.But my work takes me everywhere where racism and gender issues still exist. And all of that is not dead yet, by any means. I

think all of us, regardless of what label we call ourselves or are called, have a responsibility to work with folks who are poor,folks who are single moms.

Al McFarlane: Vivian, you're creating dialog between African American and Somali women. That's why this question, Joseph,of lineage is important to me. How far do we, can we go back to assemble our cultural identity? When I have interacted with

the Somali community, they open the meetings by saying, "Number one, we praise and thank you, African Americans whocame before us. Because your struggle, the blood you shed in Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, your fight for freedom, hasenabled us to come here today. So we thank you." And I appreciate that coming from them. They acknowledge the struggle

that your grandfathers and mothers and mine have waged to create opportunity for us. Then they say, "We simply are thenewest arrivals. We're here seeking freedom. We want to live with dignity as human beings." Yet, there is conflict betweenAfrican Americans and newly-arrived Africans. How are you addressing that, Vivian?

Vivian Jenkins Nelson: About four years ago I was called in by a local high school principal because the African Americankids and the Somali kids were fighting everyday and they were fighting on the bus, they were fighting in the school. At ourorganization is we do dialogs. We do mediations. We do a lot of different things to try to bring stake-holders to the table tosolve problems. We had a day-long conference at Augsburg College that brought teachers from both sides, African Americanand African, and we were there all day. At the end the kids said, "This conversation needs to happen with our parents." Thenext school year, the principal called me up and he said, "You've just got to know one thing: the kids continued the conversa-

tion by themselves, the whole summer." We were very pleased about that. He called me again and said, "You have to come inagain. It's four years later and we have a new group of kids and the same problems."We started in my living room, and we are now on our third conversation where we've trained women on each side to be facilita-

tors. We are dealing with issues that we bring to each other and issues that we can confront together. And we've been able tobring in some organizations, like the Somali PTA, for example. I think we're making some progress. Our notion is to move ourconversations out further, to have conversations between African Americans and Liberians. We have a very large community of

Liberians here. I do a lot of work in health care organizations, and they're clashing something fierce in those organizations. Sowe've got to really be able to talk to each other, to find our commonalities, and to work together on what matters.And you see, that's my only comment here. I don't care what anybody calls themselves, or is called. The real test here iswhether or not you're willing to invest the same blood that was shed in the old days, now in the streets, where we really need

to reach young people.

Joseph Phillips: I absolutely agree with you. It's one of the things that I think my book is about.. And if we're going to be able to find solutions to the issues that we face, as Americans, we have to be able to sit down and talk. The values create bridges. If we sit down and one of us is convinced that the other is evil, that is the end of conversation. But once we are eachsitting down, and we begin talking about our children, the importance of family, how we raise our children, the importance of faith in our lives, andin the life of our republic, the issues of character, idealism, then we find

that we have a lot of things in common.

Al McFarlane: The big immigration issue now is the issue of the southernborder, Mexico. What is the relationship between African Americans andMexicans, those who are here legally and those who are here illegally,seeking citizenship and economic opportunity.

Joseph Phillips: I wrote quite a bit about it, but I want to make clear thatmy book is not about this issue. Well, I think that there are two things thatare happening.


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The first thing is that I do believe that there is an element at work here of the suppression of wage. You have people who arecompeting for low-skill jobs. They undercut the wage. They don't have the pressure of unions. They are at an advantage. In

that respect, I do think that there is unfair competition for young Black men. The New York Times, a couple of months ago, I think it was March, published an article about the plight of young Black men. They talked about these men who did not go tohigh school or who had some high school but did not finish. Some had served time in jail and had no skills, or could only getlow-skill work. That group is facing immigrant competition.But on the same token, going back this idea of these old-school values, there was a time at which Black men did not stand on

the corner doing nothing. This was not seen as manly behavior. It's incumbent upon these Black men to enter the job marketand compete for jobs. We can take the stance that we're going to close the borders, close the southern border and the talk

about the competition between Black men and illegal immigrants, it is still incumbent upon Black men to apply for those jobsand enter the work force and get jobs. We've seen it time and time again where the authorities come down on some localindustry. In Alabama it was the chicken industry. Black men within twenty mile radius did not fill the void. They stayed unem-ployed. So that creates another question, another issue that we have to address. Even at prevailing market wage, they weren't

taking jobs. I want to tie in something else that Vivian said earlier, she was talking about Black conservatives being in the com-munity, and I had wanted to say that I absolutely agree with what you're saying, that part of the thing that has happened over

the years is that Black conservatives have been seen as critics, standing on the sidelines, telling everybody what's wrong,instead of getting their hands dirty. And I think that for the "Black Conservative" movement, to what extent there is one, whatwill help will be that people who call themselves begin to come into the community, role up their sleeves and begin working,not just telling everybody what's wrong. That tends to create distrust.

Vivian Jenkins Nelson: It makes you want to slap people.

Al McFarlane: Amy Brenengen is with Women Venture. She's heading a program calledFAIM, Family Assets for Independence in Minnesota.

Amy Brenengen: Women Venture as a whole is an economic development agency forwomen and for men. I think the success of families really has a lot to do with how theycan grow economically. That has so much to do with their own stability, what they stand

for, and how they live their values through how they choose to spend their money andwhat they acquire. The FAIM program is an excellent opportunity for folks who are low-

wage workers who maybe have not had the same opportunity to save and to takeadvantage of opportunities maximize their assets that the government and private

investors are providing.

Al McFarlane: Describe your program.

Amy Brenengen: Family Assets for Independence in Minnesota is actu-ally a state-wide program across the state of Minnesota, and Women

Venture is a provider. In this program you save thirty to forty dollarsa month for two years. It's matched three times: once by the state,

once by the government, and once by a private funder. The ideais that savers get to save for an appreciable asset like starting abusiness or continuing higher education or owning a home.And at the end of the two years of saving, they have enoughmatched funds to start on one of those endeavors.

Al McFarlane: What is the maximum that they can save?

Amy Brenengen: The maximum they can save ends upbeing $3,800 with the matching, at the end, so that'sabout $490 a year. It is limited to those three assets,

and every saver, regardless of the asset that they're saving

Amy Brenengen


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for, has to take twelve hours of financial literacy education, which is just an excellentoverview of connecting your values, needs, and wants to the economic choices that youmake, for yourself and for your family. They also have to do specific training around theasset that they're pursuing. So if it's a home, they have to take a home-buying class. If it'sa business, there are vsome business classes that they take, and thesame for education.

Al McFarlane: Women Venture is the sponsor, but is the program for women only? Or is itfor anybody?

Amy Brenengen: It is for women and men, and we are sponsoring this in conjunction withcommunity action agencies across the state of Minnesota and with United Way, so there'sopportunities all over for folks to take advantage of it. We have a lot of openings right now

that we want people to take advantage of.

Joseph Phillips: I think this idea, families saving, is very important. But the idea that it is for families, for men and forwomen, is significant. Married couples do better than singles. And we know that there are some things that people can do tohelp themselves along, and one of those things, I tell kids this all the time, one of those things is to graduate from high school.The other thing that you can do is to not get pregnant in high school. It's important to get married and to stay married. Butyou should wait until after you're twenty-five to get married, and then, again, to stay married. There are some reports thatcame out recently talking about the expense of divorce, and how much wealth it costs people to end a marriage. So, I think

these are all things that are in line with old-school values of saving and frugality. People saved for education. They saved forbusiness. They saved for property. It was important. And in this notion of getting some new rims on your car when you can'tpay your rent, that's new-school.

Al McFarlane: I want to bring two more voices in to the conversation. Robert Tisdale and Roxanne Tisdale are here on behalf of Open Cities Health Center. They want our community to pay more attention to our attitude toward health, our commitment tohealth, our awareness, understanding and utilization resources in the community that can help us be healthy as individuals.Ultimately it's our personal choices, and our personal capacity and our willingness to use the resources.

Roxanne Tisdale: Open Cities Health Center is a federally funded health center that houses medical care, mental healthcare, and also dental care. We do a Father's Day Health Fair in celebration of our men and to get some of our resources out to

them. It's just not the woman who can bring the child in, it's just not the woman who needs to be educated about asthma, dia-

betes. It's not just the woman who needs to know how to use a child car seat safely and appropriately. So we want to encour-age, engage our men in the community to take on some of these roles, to get educated about health, to be empowered, towork on behalf of themselves and also their families and the community.

Robert Tisdal e: We spend a lot of time talking about, what are we going to do for our community. What are we going to dofor the parents? What are we going to do for the mothers and the fathers, to be better parents? My role in it is to talk to themen and let them know that we can be better men for our families. We can take care of our daughters. We can take care of our sons. Even if you're not in the home, you can still be a parent.

Al McFarlane: Tell me about your relationship, the two of your, your backgrounds.

Roxanne Tisdale: A I am a paramedic by trade. I am in nursing school right now. Robert and I met when I was in college and

he has supported me through college and supported the family through college.

Al McFarlane: Robert, you sound like the kind of guy that Joseph was talking about a minute ago! (Laughter around room.)

Roxanne Tisdale: I started working at Open Cities as an outreach worker. One of the things that frustrated me was that there was no one to talk to our men. We were having women's support groups. We were having diabetes support groups. Wewere having mental health support groups, and who showed up? It was the women. And so I got frustrated, and ended upcoming home and saying, "You know Robert, there's got to be something done. There has got to be someone out there. Therehas got to be a voice. There's got to be a role model." And from there, he was excited about it too, so we were doing healthfairs, and going out into the community. People saw us as a team, working together. Now he is actually a volunteer for OpenCities Health Center, and I have called him up on a moment's notice and said, "Hey, look, I've got this brother down here whoneeds some talking to and he just cannot hear it from me. I need you down here." And before I hang up the phone, he's


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already down here, got the brother in a room asking, "Okay, what's going on, what's happening? Here are some of theresources you can use. Here are some of the things that you can do."And as frustrating as it may be for me that I'm saying the same things, they hear it differently from a male perspective, from amale point of view. I don't know if he uses his 'and's and 'but's in a different way, but they definitely take it differently, and theysee him as a role model.

Al McFarlane: And so Robert, let me ask you, what's the mission and the vision, from your point of view? What's inside you that gives you both the confidence and the motivation to be on the front line, as you are called to be by your partner?

Robert Tisdal e: I didn't grow up with a father. There is a gap growing between men and their families.I can't even walk down the street without seeing another Black man and almost getting into a fight. We need to stop that as acommunity. We need to be able to walk down the street, see another Black man, say, "How ya doin?" And address them as'sir.' We don't do that anymore. So my role is to educate the Black men, emotionally, physically, and spiritually to get us on adifferent path. I am reaching out to young men on their level.

Al McFarlane: Joseph, what do you think?

Joseph Phillips: There is an iconic vision that I have of the man, the father, in the old West, standing in front of his cabin with the loaded shotgun as his family stands behind him. That image is of the man, as the head of the house, protecting his familyfrom evil that would come through the front door and harm his children and his wife. He's willing to sacrifice his blood, his life,if need be, to protect them. That is the image that I think that Robert shares, reflecting our role as protectors of the communi-

ty, protectors of the home. And we have to be at the front door. We have to be at the gates of the community. Evil doesn't nec-essarily ride in on a gang of horses with six-shooters anymore, but there is evil out there. And we are the guardians at thegate.

Al McFarlane: Let me share a different perception. I see my role as a Black man, husband, andfather, differently from what you've described. It probably includes that, but I wouldn't describe it theyway you did because I fear that your description, which I think is a real for you, some may say relegates

to women a role of being protected and not part of the protection class.I see Al and Bobbi McFarlane in partnership. My iconic vision is of two units, two humans, sort of

standing back to back, both equally committed to, equally responsible for creation of harmony, order,and opportunity for individual and collective growth, for safety in the community, and for creation of aspace that allows the community and society to advance. I don't see myself as the guy with the gun. I

see us both equally committed to and sharing responsibility for our lives and our community.

Joseph Phillips: But here's the other difference. In my marriage we are very much partners, and Iwould hope that no one would take what I'm saying to say that my wife has no role, because that'sclearly not what I'm saying. My wife has a very important role in the family. But men and women do have different roles.Sowhile my wife also protects, I think the notion -- I want to be careful how I say this -- I think the danger is that if we start to talkabout this unified kind of everybody standing at the gate, what it does is it alleviates responsibility from men. And what I'msaying is over the last forty or fifty years what we have seen is the result of men stepping back and waiting for someone else to

join them at the gates, or to take that role, which is a male role, of standing, of being the guardian.

Al McFarlane: Vivian, is that a male role?

Vivian Jenkins Nelson: I'm hyperventilating here. I'm definitely hyperventilating.

Al McFarlane: Think about it, before you answer.

Joseph Phillips: I can't imagine what I've said that you would disagree with.

Al McFarlane: Before you answer, let me bring one more voice in. Monica Hines recently graduated from Dunwoody Collegeof Technology. She's forty-two years old. She's been divorced twice. She is the mother of seven children and she has sevengrandchildren. Monica, you are a breast cancer survivor and you have been in the construction business, is that correct?


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Monica Hines: Yes, Sir. I wanted to be an example to my children. Idon't have a male role model in the home, and I can't be a father. ButI can be a productive person that shows my sons to go to work andshows them how to pursue what they want to do in their life. I wouldlove to have had, and I looked for male role models for them. Theyhad my brothers and my uncles for male role models. But I had to bea role model within the house and I believed I could show them what

they need to do to be productive in their life. I went to Dunwoody afterdoing construction for six years. I went against all odds because

it's a male-dominated type of school. I have four brothers and itwas kind of easy for me to be in that role.

Al McFarlane: Well, let me ask you to respond to thequestion, then, of what's the man's role in the house? You

just said, number one, "I can't be the male role model for

my sons." What is the man's role versus the woman's role.Monica Hines: I can answer it this way: I know that if my sons had had a man that would have read to them, growing up, anda man that would go to their schools and make sure that academically, they were doing okay, they would have achieved theirgoals a lot easier. I did those things. I made sure they knew I was there. I read to them. But there is a relationship between aman and his father that is important. I believe that a son wants to prove himself to his father. I believe he is a lot better individ-ual if he has someonelooking out for him.

Al McFarlane: Vivian Jenkins Nelson?

Vivian Jenkins Nelson: I want to follow up on that. We're not too far away from understanding that there is a role for bothparents to protect children from the things out in this world that may damage them. But I think it's very important the kind of picture that we have of families, whether it's their mothers standing there alone with their seven kids, or whether it's the momand dad. As the Urban League said some years ago, "There is strength in Black families, and we have to find it." The strengthis really around values, which is the word that you brought up earlier, Joseph. I think about my family. My folks were married. Icome from an African American family. They were married for sixty-three years. My husband and I have been married for thirty-six years. Now, the iconic figure that I would like you to go away with is that my mother and dad held hands. They were equalpartners, and if you really looked closely at my family, you would see a picture of my dad holding me, the only girl, on his lap,reading books. We read Edgar Allen Poe. We read everything together. I had very high ideals about who I would marry. The

thing about it is that my brothers came out in interesting ways. My dad, I told you earlier, was in the civil rights movement. Mybrother was a Black Panther. So the two of them held hands in the community, even as my brother talked about the impor-

tance of the Panther breakfast program. What I'm saying is that families should be able to embrace people who are very dif-ferent. We can embrace people who are very different in the community. If we can't do that, then we have problems.Women and men can only be as good as each other is in assisting the other one. So we have to hold each other's hands up --

Joseph Phillips: I agree with everything that you've said.

Vivian Jenkins Nelson: We absolutely must.

Joseph Phillips: I agree with that and I think you said it beautifully. Monica, I cannot believe you have seven grandchildren. I just want to say one thing, just to tag on, because I tell my wife all the time, I say: "Listen, you have the very important job of raising children. I have the job of raising men." And I believe that it takes men to raise men. That is where I was going .Conversations

Monica Hines


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Editors Note: Biography from josephphillips.com - Joseph was born and raised in Denver, Colorado the only son of four chil-dren. After graduation from George Washington High School he attended the University of the Pacific in central California as acommunications major. Having been bitten by the theatre bug early on, Mr. Phillips decided on an acting career and trans-ferred to the acting conservatory at New York University where he graduated with a BFA in Acting in 1983.After graduation Mr. Phillips continued his education, studying with Michael Howard, Chicago City Limits and the late NoraDunfee. He also participated in acting workshops with Anna Deveare Smith and Carmen Delavallade.Phillips' theatrical credits include starring roles in the Broadway production of Six Degrees of Separation, the Kennedy Centerand American Playhouse productions of A Raisin in the Sun, starring Danny Glover and Esther Rolle, and the off- Broadwayproduction of Coriolanus with Christopher Walken and Irene Worth. Mr. Phillips also had the honor of creating the title role in

Dreaming Emmett, Pulitzer and Nobel Prize winning author Toni Morrison's only theatrical play. Joseph's solo performancepiece, Professor Lombooza Lomboo was a featured production at the 12th annual National Black Theatre Festival and the2001 Minnesota Fringe Festival.His feature film credits include starring roles in Strictly Business, Let's Talk About Sex and Midnight Blue. On television hestarred on the hit series The Cosby Show and was a three time NAACP Image Award Nominee for his portrayal of AttorneyJustus Ward on the Daytime Drama General Hospital. Most recently he appeared as Mayor Morgan Douglas on the CBSseries The District and has also had guest starring roles on Las VegasVegas, Jack and Bobby, The King of Queens, JudgingAmy, Family Law, Martin, The Larry Sanders Show, City of Angeles, Any Day Now, The Parkers, Popular, V.I.P. and LivingSingle among others.As a writer Phillips has had essays published in Newsweek, Los Angeles Daily News, Essence Magazine, Upscale, USAToday, Jewish World Review, Turning Point, College Digest, BET.com and the Indianapolis Recorder. His column "The Way Isee it" appears weekly in the The Columbus Post, The Los Angeles Wave, Akron Reporter, The Michigan Chronicle, TheMichigan Front Page, The Chicago Defender, the New Pittsburgh Courier, The Tri-State Defender, Long Beach Times, The

Atlanta Daily World, Miami Times, Tempo News and the web daily's Blackamericatoday.com, Blacknews.com, EURweb.com,attackmachine.com, Netlistings.com, Michaellwilliams.com, JewishWorldReview.com, and PoliticalVanguard.comJoseph has also contributed commentary to BET Tonight, BET Nightly News, The Dennis Miller Show, America's Black Forum,American Urban Radio Networks, was for 3 years a regular commentator on National Public Radio's the Tavis Smiley Showand currently appears as a regular commentator on NPR's News and Notes with Ed Gordon.Acting and writing are just two of Joseph's many passions. His interest in community service has led to Mr. Phillips involvementwith the Special Olympics, The Green Chimneys Foundation, of which he was an advisory board member, The Red Cross andmost recently the Big Brothers of Greater Los Angeles.He has been a visiting speaker for organizations such as the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, Black America's PoliticalAction committee, Council for African-American Republican Leadership, Colorado Sickle Cell Foundation, Sickle Cell DiseaseAssociation of America, The United States Post Office, Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity Inc., Youngstown University, California StateUniversity At Northridge, Towson State University, Pepperdine University, The Green Chimney's Foundation, Los Angeles Boysand Girls Club, Fullerton College, The Chicago Black Expo the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, Mountain ViewCommunity Church Elections forum and at elementary and primary schools across the country.Phillips has taught acting workshops at the National Black Theatre Festival, The College of William and Mary, California StateUniversity Long Beach, Louisiana State University, Delta State College, Canoga Park High School and The Lutheran School.Joseph is a member of the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, Actors EquityAssociation, the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences and Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity Incorporated and was the NationalCo-Chair of the African American Steering committee for Bush/Cheney '04, was named a member of the Republican NationalCommittees African American Advisory Board and was appointed by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to the board of direc-tors of the California African American Museum.An interest in Law resulted in Joseph's acceptance to Rutgers University School of Law-an auxiliary career path he has put onhold. He is also a graduate of culinary school and has had recipes published in Soap Opera Digest, Essence Magazine andthe best selling cookbook, Cooking with Regis And Kathy Lee, and is the Celebrity Chairman for Real Men Cook, Los Angeles.However, his greatest passion is Nicole, his wife of 11 years, and their three children, Connor, 7, Ellis, 5 and 3 year-oldSamuel.WomenVenture is a leader in providing the technical tools and emotional support to help clients start a business, find a new

job, or develop a new career path. Today's woman has many career and business opportunities in an ever changing market-place. With this vast array of options comes the struggle to make the right choice, sort through all the information and under-stand all the options.

WomenVenture is committed to helping its clients focus energy, systematically plan, identify resources and carry outgoals in a setting that is nurturing and supportive. WomenVenture serves women - and men (in most programs) - of all eco-nomic and ethnic backgrounds. In its 28 year history, over 78,000 women and men have been served. Contact Amy Barringerat Women Venture at 651-646-3808 and on the web at womenventure.org. Women Venture is located at 2320 University, St.Paul 55114.Open Cities Health Center:For all ages. Mental Health, Dental, Prenatal Classes, Diabetic Education, Smoking Cessation, Social Service.North End


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135 Manitoba Avenue, St. Paul, MN, 55117Phone: 651-489-8021Fax: 651-489-4402Bus Routes: 12Dunlap Street409 North Dunlap StreetSt. Paul, MN, 55104Phone: 651-290-9200Fax: 651-290-9210

Bus Routes: 16A, 21A, 50Hours:Monday-Thursday 8:00 am - 8:00 pmFriday 8:00 am - 5:00 pmSaturday 12:00 pm - 3:00 pmInsurance Accepted:Medicare, Medical Assistance, UCare, HealthPartners, Medica, Blue Plus, Blue Cross, PreferredOne, Most privateinsurance,Sliding Fee Scale Other Languages: Hmong, Vietnamese, SpanishStaff: Family Practice, Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, Ophthalmology, Surgery, DentistryHospitals: Regions Hospital, United Hospital, St. Joseph's Hospital, Children's Hospital and Clinics - St. Paul

Vivian Jenkins Nelsen is the cofounder of INTER-RACE: The International Institute for Interracial Interaction, a diversity think-tank dedicated to improving race relations through research, education, and consultation. Nelsen participated in two

International U.N. Conferences on Women, advised the Carter and Reagan White Houses on urban issues, and was recog-nized by President Ford for her work in the resettlement of Southeast Asian refugees. She is the former Director ofAdministration at the Hubert Humphrey Institute of Public Affairs and served as the Director of Human Relations Programs forteachers at the University of Minnesota and Hamline University. I

Documents

McFarlane-Ford Reader (2)