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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt00011 THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES2 LIFE AND FRESHWATER FISHERIES DIVISION

Meeting of May 19, 20073 HUNTSVILLE MUSEUM 300 Church Street South4 Huntsville, Alabama5 Before the Conservation Advisory Board Beginning at 9:00 a.m.67

BOARD MEMBERS:8

Mr. Bill Hatley9 639 Estate Drive

Gulf Shores, AL 3654210 Congressional District 111 Dr. A. Wayne May 188 County Road 20312 Eutaw, AL 35462 Congressional District 713

Dr. Warren Strickland14 930 Franklin Street Huntsville, Al 3580115 Congressional District 5

16 Mr. Johnny M. Johnson 1018 54th Street East17 Tuscaloosa, AL Congressional District 718

Mr. Raymond Jones, Jr.19 401 Franklin Street Huntsville, AL 3580120 Congressional District 521 Mr. Ron Sparks Department of Agriculture & Industrial

22 P.O. Box 3336 Montgomery, AL 361092300021 APPEARANCES (Continued)2 Commissioner M. Barnett Lawley Department of Conservation

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt3 P.O. Box 301450 Montgomery, AL 361304

Mr. Dan L. Moultrie, Chairman

5 P.O. Box 188 Verbena, AL 360916 Congressional District 67 Mr. Gaines Smith Alabama Co-op Extension Service8 109 Duncan Hall Auburn, AL 368499 State wide10 Mr. W. Grant Lynch P.O. Box 77711 Talladega, AL 35161 Congressional District 3

12Mr. Louis W. Coles

13 6207 County Road 625 Enterprise, AL 3633014 Congressional District 215 Mr. George Harbin 1177 Elliott Road16 Gadsden, AL 35904 Congressional District 417

Ms. Robin Nummy

18 Alabama Department of Conservation and Natural Resources19 64 North Union Street Montgomery, AL 3613020

Also Present: Fred Harders21 Gary Moody Corky Pugh22 Allan Andress230003

1 INDEX2 Call to Order 43 Invocation 44 Introduction of Advisory 6 Board Members5

Approval of Minutes of Last 8

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt6 Meetings7 Public Hearing 98 Old Business 839 New Business 170

10 Selection of Date and 216 Location of 2008 February11 Advisory Board meeting12 Meeting Adjourn 2161314151617181920

21222300041 CONSERVATION ADVISORY BOARD MEETING2 Saturday, May 19, 200734 MR. CHAIRMAN: I'd like to call

5 to order the May 19, 2007, meeting of6 the Conservation Advisory Board. I7 would like to welcome everyone to the

8 Huntsville Museum of Arts. I am glad9 that everyone is able to attend today.10 The invocation will be given by11 Mr. John Johnson.12 MR. JOHNSON: Let us pray. Dear13 Heavenly Father, we are so thankful14 for you loving us. As we begin our15 state conservation advisory board16 meeting, we pray for our members and17 leaders.18 Lord, please give us your peace

19 and refresh us in our weariness that20 this may be a good day with much good21 being accomplished.22 Lord, we ask your blessings on23 our meeting as our members meet00051 together and work together for a

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt2 better state in which to live and3 work.4 Help us to stand up under the5 strains and tensions of problems and

6 decisions with which we are dealing.7 Lord, you provide guidance,8 protection and order in our world9 through our leaders. We pray that you10 will help our leaders to face the11 problems that confront them by giving12 them the wisdom greater than their13 own.14 Help our leaders be united to15 find the right way to achieve a just16 and lasting peace in our land all over17 the world.

18 We come before you, Lord, on19 behalf of all of our armed forces to20 keep them safe and protect them from21 our enemies and protect them from22 accidents. Guard them both in body23 and mind. Please bring them home00061 safely to their families.2 Please watch over us and give3 each of us a safe trip to our home.4 Lord, we pray for these in the

5 name of Jesus.6 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you,7 Mr. Johnson.8 I'd like to welcome to the9 meeting this morning Commissioner Ron10 Sparks to my right and Assistant11 Commissioner Lawley. Welcome y'all.12 The next in order of business, I13 would like to call Mr. Barnett Lawley14 to introduce the special advisory15 board.

16 COMMISSIONER LAWLEY: First,17 Commissioner Sparks, I would like to18 welcome you to this meeting. We are19 glad to have you.20 I'd like to introduce Raymond21 Jones, District 5 in the Huntsville22 area. He was working with

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt23 Dr. Strickland, a great outdoors man.00071 He's been on this board before, and we2 are very excited about having him

3 reign with us again on the advisory4 board.5 Louis, we will start with you.6 If you don't mind, just tell everybody7 your name.8 MR. COLES: I'm Louis Coles,9 Congressional District 2.10 MR. LYNCH: Grant Lynch from11 Congressional District 3.12 MR. SMITH: Gaines Smith, I'm13 state wide.14 MR. JONES: Raymond Jones,

15 District 5.16 MR. JOHNSON: Johnny Johnson,17 District 7.18 DR. STRICKLAND: Warren19 Strickland, Congressional District 5.20 DR. MAY: Wayne May, District 7.21 MR. HATLEY: Bill Hatley,22 District 1.23 MR. CHAIRMAN: Let the record00081 show that everyone is in attendance

2 except Mr. Self, who is having health3 problems.4 Mr. Hatley, for District 1, you5 will have full authority of District 16 today.7 MR. HATLEY: That's what I always8 wanted.9 MR. CHAIRMAN: The next order of10 business, are there any corrections to11 the minutes? We are going to have to12 approve both minutes because we didn't

13 approve the February minutes at the14 last meeting because they weren't15 ready yet.16 Are there any corrections to the17 minutes of February 10th and March18 10th?19 (No response)

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt20 MR. COLES: Move that they be21 approved.22 MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a motion,23 and a second before we go to

00091 discussion. The motion is to approve2 them.3 Mr. Coles, do you have any4 discussion?5 MR. COLES: No, sir.6 MR. HATLEY: Mr. Self asked to be7 put on the record to show that he was8 in attendance at the last meeting.9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Let that be10 corrected. Self was in attendance at11 the last meeting.

12 Stand and approved as corrected.13 The next order of business is the14 public hearing. When you hear your15 name called, please go to the16 microphone and give your name and the17 subject that you wish to speak upon.18 I will remind you that you may19 only speak at the time that you are20 called, and any interference with the21 speaker will not be tolerated.22 Again, we have standing rules

23 that are available and enforced with00101 our speakers who have a three-minute2 limit. Robin will be giving us that3 time.4 If you are speaking on a subject5 that you are giving new and good6 thought, we will try to be very, very7 fair with those time limits.8 So the first speaker will be9 Mr. William Kerlin from Madison

10 County.11 MR. KERLIN: My name is William12 Kerlin. I'm from Huntsville, Alabama.13 What I would like to have the14 committee look at is the deer15 muzzleloader season.16 I would like to see the season

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt17 start on a Saturday and go through18 Friday to give them, the people that19 can't get out on weekdays, a chance to20 go out on weekends for the

21 muzzleloader season. That way22 everybody will get a chance to hunt23 during the muzzleloader season. The00111 muzzleloader season is in November.2 That's it.3 MR. CHAIRMAN: Very good, sir,4 thank you.5 Second will be Mr. Randy Yeargan6 from Chilton County.7 MR. YEARGAN: I'm Randy Yeargan,8 Chilton County appearing for the board

9 members of the board of the -- I have10 got one quick thing I want to ask.11 Some of our members of the board want12 to ask for an amendment to the13 regulations concerning carrying two14 weapons in a stand is currently legal15 in Alabama, carrying both a gun and16 bow during gun deer season in the17 state, and it's not legal to carry a18 gun and bow to stand or a blind period19 for turkey season. And they wanted me

20 to ask for a consideration to amend21 that to where you can carry both a gun22 and bow to a stand during turkey23 season or to a blind as well as during00121 gun deer season.2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Yeargan, does3 your organization have -- is that your4 organization?5 MR. YEARGAN: Yes. That's an6 organization. I want to ask for that

7 to change it to where you can carry8 both a gun and a bow.9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. All the10 board will have a discussion on that11 today, so it will be brought up.12 Any other discussions with the13 board, Mr. Yeargan?

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt14 MR. YEARGAN: No.15 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you,16 Mr. Yeargan.17 The next speaker will be Mike

18 Goorch. Excuse me if I pronounce it19 wrong. Mike Goorch from Limestone20 County.21 MR. GOORCH: Good morning, sir.22 My name is Mike Goorch from Limestone23 County. I represent the Elkmont Lions00131 Club.2 I'm here to ask that the opening3 day of dove season be established4 somewhere between the first day of5 September and the second weekend in

6 September. The primary reason for7 that is my club has a fund-raising8 event, actually three fund-raising9 events each year, the first of which10 is a dove shoot. And we also have our11 second event, which is scheduled a12 year in advance which follows luckily13 about the end of September. It is a14 10k run.15 We support a foundation in16 Huntsville, Birmingham with thousands

17 of dollars contributions, and each18 year we perform over a thousand eye19 and hearing exams for county schools.20 And without fund-raising, we can't21 perform those events. So that's why22 we ask for the change of the dove23 season to help. Thank you.00141 MR. CHAIRMAN: Very good. Thank2 you very much.3 The next speaker will be Mr. Rick

4 Moss from Limestone.5 MR. MOSS: I'm Ricky Moss from6 Limestone County. I too am asking7 about the change for dove season. I8 work with the youth dove hunters, I9 guess the last six years since it was10 established in 2001.

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt11 And you know the dove are not12 like us. They react to weather.13 Usually we have a cool front that14 comes in at least the second week of

15 September. Around here it's normally16 3rd or 4th, 5th of September pushing17 aside. We would like to ask that you18 maybe make the dove season open the19 first week, no later than the second.20 Thank you.21 MS. NUMMY: We have got to step22 up to the mic. We are having trouble23 hearing.00151 MR. CHAIRMAN: The next speaker2 is Harlan Starr from Cherokee County.

3 MR. STARR: Mr. Chairman, I too4 would like to voice my opinion about5 the proposed 22nd of September dove6 season. In my part of the state that7 is way too late. Typically as the8 gentleman before me mentioned, we do9 have a cool front and the dove leave.10 We need to open dove season either the11 first or second Saturday in September.12 22nd is too late. And I would like13 y'all to consider moving that proposed

14 change. Appreciate it.15 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you,16 Mr. Moss.17 The next speaker is Mr. Hal18 Swartz from Limestone.19 MR. SWARTZ: My name is Hal20 Swartz from Limestone County. I would21 like to address the issue of dove22 season and the time proposed. I would23 like to see it move back from0016

1 September 22nd to the 1st, no later2 than then 8th of September. I work3 with many youth groups, and we have4 these hunts for them. If we don't5 have the date moved back, the birds6 won't be there, and we won't have a7 harvest for the youth. This is a

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt8 training and learning experience.9 Also, in Limestone County we have10 many retailers and wholesalers in11 businesses that help sponsor and

12 donate shells and things. This would13 be very limited, and we wouldn't be14 able to get them because if there are15 no doves, we wouldn't have the16 participation. A lot of our volunteer17 fire departments and other volunteer18 organizations rely on these dove hunts19 also. If you don't move the date back20 in Limestone County and the northern21 part of Alabama, they won't have money22 or funds, for example, the volunteer23 fire department which they rely on

00171 quite heavily for their income.2 Also, you will be sending people3 out of state, Tennessee, for example.4 First we would be losing the income.5 Also the state would be losing income6 on the sale of licenses. If people7 realize the doves are not going to be8 there, the licenses won't be bought or9 they might be bought at a later time10 shifting the revenue the state might

11 respect.12 Thank you all very much.13 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you,14 Mr. Swartz.15 The next speaker will be Paul16 Unabler from Madison.17 MR. UNABLER: Good morning. My18 name is Paul Unabler. I'm from19 Huntsville, Madison County. This is20 not the first time. It won't be the21 last time.

22 Again, I represent 70 other23 hunters here from Madison County.00181 What I would like to talk about is the2 start of the dove season, September3 22nd. For North Alabama it is way too4 late. The birds are gone.

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt5 For a state this size, maybe we6 want to consider a split dove season7 for the northern and southern zones of8 the state.

9 I would like to propose set it as10 the second Saturday of the month and11 just hold it to that so everybody in12 all the organizations can have that as13 a starting date like some of the14 others. A lot of specific15 organizations raise their funds with16 that. So by having September 22nd, I17 think it is going to be a big impact,18 not only on the hunters, but on the19 other organizations in the state.20 Thank you.

21 MR. CHAIRMAN: Very good. Thank22 you.23 Next speaker will be Mr. Will00191 Ainsworth from Marshall County.2 MR. AINSWORTH: Gentlemen of the3 board. It is good to have you guys in4 North Alabama. What I came to talk5 about was buck limits.6 I am Will Ainsworth from Marshall7 County, Guntersville, Alabama. We run

8 a small commercial hunting operation,9 and I just want to let y'all know that10 I think it will be good for our11 business and also the state if that12 were to pass. We are in favor of13 that. I just want to let y'all know14 that. Thank you.15 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.16 The next speaker will be Ray17 Angel from Lauderdale County.18 MR. ANGEL: I am Ray Angel from

19 Lauderdale County. I'd like to voice20 my opinion on deer hunting. I oppose21 the three-buck limit, but I do agree22 with a six point or above. I would23 like to see a six point or above on00201 deer hunting.

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt2 Thank you.3 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very4 much, Mr. Ainsworth.5 The next speaker will be Mr. Stan

6 Gossett from Lauderdale County.7 MR. GOSSETT: I'm Stan Gossett8 from Lauderdale County. I would like9 to go on the record opposing the10 three-buck limit. I think -- I do11 respect the efforts to improve Alabama12 deer herd. I think this better be13 served by imposing an emphasized14 limit. To continue to encourage our15 youth, I think we need to weigh that16 limit with any (unintelligible) that17 we might have.

18 Restricted number of bucks taken19 per year is going to be a very20 difficult regulation for our21 conservation officers to enforce, and22 I think the emphasized limit would be23 more easily regulated.00211 Our conservation officers are2 already pushed to the limit in3 regulations, and let's not add any4 other responsibilities to their

5 workload.6 We need to work, all work in7 making Alabama a better place.8 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you,9 Mr. Gossett.10 The next speaker will be11 Mr. Philip Hester, state wide.12 MR. HESTER: Thank you to the13 board for letting me speak before you14 today. I really appreciate15 Mr. Barnett Lawley and Mr. Moultrie in

16 what you are trying to do. I spoke to17 the committee last year. It's good to18 speak to you again.19 I represent the Central Alabama20 branch of Quality Deer Management21 Association based in Birmingham. We22 are here to support the

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt23 recommendations of the deer advisory00221 panel. They give you three2 recommendations. We would like to

3 support any of the three that you4 choose.5 We feel like any effort we can6 put forth to support changing our buck7 structure is going to improve the herd8 long term, and that's one of the main9 purposes.10 I would also like to recall the11 gentleman's statement about the12 extending the muzzleloader season.13 As deer managers we try to14 harvest the doe as early in the year,

15 and that will give us a good16 opportunity to do that. So that's all17 that I have to say.18 Any questions?19 MR. CHAIRMAN: No questions.20 Thank you, sir.21 The next speaker will be22 Mr. Jerry Hinson from Jackson County.23 MR. HINSON: I'm Jerry Hinson. I00231 just want to say I'm for the

2 three-buck system. I head count. I3 think our buck/doe ratio is still4 (unintelligible). In fact, I would5 like to see quit taking bucks. I'm6 seeing bucks still chasing does in7 February when I'm rabbit hunting. We8 have got too many does and not enough9 bucks. I would like to limit that10 number of bucks that are killed. And11 at the same time, it's -- if we are12 trying to kill more does, some small

13 bucks are going to get killed by14 accident. I know that and I realize15 that. But if we keep killing our16 bucks when they are a year and a half17 old, we are never going to have18 (unintelligible). They have got to19 get older to get bigger.

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt20 I'm not so much of a trophy21 person, it is just that I would like22 to see that buck/doe ratio improve. I23 think we will have a bigger, better

00241 deer if we could do that.2 Also, I'd like to see the season3 go through February. I think at some4 point we need to get that buck/doe5 ratio back in to where we have a -- we6 don't know when our rut is now. It7 starts in December and ends in April8 some time. That's what I want to say.9 I'm interested in (unintelligible).10 Thank you.11 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

12 The next speaker will be Currun13 Humphrey from Madison County.14 MR. HUMPHREY: I'm Currun15 Humphrey.16 MS. NUMMY: You have got to step17 up.18 MR. HUMPHREY: I wanted to19 address the subject of the proposed20 tagging system for, I assume, big21 game; that is all big game. I'm not22 familiar with the details in full. It

23 might be something in there that would00251 let me be for it. But as I see it2 now, I will not be for that.3 The first place, it's obvious4 that it's going to be an additional5 expense to the department to enforce6 that regulation. I can see that you7 have to buy some computer probably and8 hire different people to keep up with9 the tag requirement.

10 I see it as being a burden, an11 added burden on the hunter. I hunt12 some up in Tennessee which has a13 tagging requirement, and if you get a14 big game, that includes turkey, first15 concern you have got to have is comply16 with the tagging requirement. And

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt17 that requires you to know where the18 tagging system is and load up your19 game and take it to the checking20 station. That's the first thing that

21 you have got to be concerned about.22 A tagging system here in this23 state, for example, if applies to a00261 person's own property, which it would2 I'm sure, would mean that if you3 wanted to go turkey hunting here on4 your own land, you would have to be5 concerned with complying to the6 tagging requirements. In other words,7 if you wanted to get up early in the8 morning and go hunting, you have got

9 to figure in there that you have got10 to go to the tagging station when you11 get a turkey. So that's going to take12 up close to a half a day.13 Once you get to the tagging14 station, you comply with the15 regulations regarding tagging, and16 then you have got to decide what to do17 with your game. Do you go back and18 hunt, or do you take it to the19 processor, or what do you do with it?

20 So that is a problem.21 With regard to turkey hunting,22 you know it's real easy to dress your23 own turkeys. But if you have a00271 tagging department in warm weather,2 you have to take them to the tagging3 station. Then when you get there,4 what are you going to do? Are you5 going to go back and hunt or take care6 of your turkey?

7 I have here the Tennessee8 regulations. Of course, as we all9 know, regulation books get thicker and10 thicker every year. That's the case11 in Tennessee.12 Let me read you what their13 tagging department is right now. It

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt14 is unlawful to move, transport or15 field dress any big game animal except16 for thorough hauling without17 invalidating or attaching properly

18 completed temporary kill tags. If19 additional animals are to be harvested20 on that day, the hunter is not21 required to stop hunting and tag the22 animal until he or she is ready to23 move, transport or field dress the00281 animal. At the conclusion of the hunt2 all harvested animals must be tagged,3 must be transported to the nearest4 tagging station on that calendar day.5 Well, you know, that's pretty

6 complicated. You are allowed to kill7 two turkeys in the fall on the same8 day in Tennessee. You catch that9 first turkey, are you going to tag10 that one or are you going to field11 dress it? What are you going to do12 with it? And then what are you going13 to do, continue on hunting for the14 second turkey or not?15 MR. CHAIRMAN: Time.16 MR. HUMPHREY: Let me say this,

17 and I will be done. Tennessee has --18 to give the hunter 36 hours to comply.19 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you,20 Mr. Humphrey.21 The next speaker will be Philip22 Kizzire, Fayette County.23 MR. KIZZIRE: Good morning. I'm00291 Phillip Kizzire from Fayette County.2 I'm here opposing the tagging -- the3 three deer limit. I don't see how we

4 can enforce that because we don't have5 enough game wardens to enforce the6 laws that we have in the books now,7 and we are going to add a law to the8 books and add a burden to the game9 wardens.10 Also, you are going to make some

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt11 of your better hunters probably quit12 hunting. They are going to kill their13 three-buck limit. They are not going14 to kill a doe anyway. So you are

15 going to take the man out of the woods16 when they can be out there helping17 enforce the laws or seek people18 breaking laws and reporting them. So19 I think we need to re-think that and20 not do the three-buck limit. Thank21 you.22 MR. HATLEY: Mr. Kizzire, you23 hunt in Fayette County?00301 MR. KIZZIRE: Yes, sir.2 MR. HATLEY: How many bucks did

3 you kill last year?4 MR. KIZZIRE: Two.5 MR. HATLEY: Two. What was the6 average -- are you in a club?7 MR. KIZZIRE: Yes, sir.8 MR. HATLEY: What would you9 figure was the average number of bucks10 killed by each individual in your11 club?12 MR. KIZZIRE: Probably whole13 total of deer that was killed,

14 probably two deer per person in the15 club.16 MR. HATLEY: Two per person.17 Okay.18 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you,19 Mr. Kizzrie.20 The next speaker will be Trey21 Montgomery, Greene County.22 MR. MONTGOMERY: Thank you,23 Board, on allowing us to speak. My0031

1 name is Trey Montgomery. I'm from2 Greene County. I own a little, small3 hunting operation there. We are all4 in support of a three-buck limit. I'm5 also a state chairman for the Alabama6 Farmers Federation, and our whole7 organization is behind the three-buck

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt8 limit.9 Also, in our business perception10 is a big thing. We are losing hunters11 to Mississippi. I think

12 Mississippi -- I'd like to see that13 pass.14 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.15 MR. CHAIRMAN: Very good. Thank16 you, Mr. Montgomery.17 The next speaker will be18 Mr. James Moses from Cleburne County.19 MR. MOSES: I'm James Moses. I20 live in Huntsville.21 I'm a casual deer hunter. I like22 to go to the woods. I like to shoot23 the first -- I'm not a headhunter. A

00321 lot of the does I have shot turned out2 to be bucks when I got up to them. I3 don't want to see any kind of an4 antler restriction imposed on them.5 It's hard to examine a deer's head6 stuck down in a thicket to see how7 many points he has if any. I'm very8 much opposed to antler restrictions.9 In regard to the three-buck10 limit, I never killed three bucks in a

11 year and don't care to.12 However, the cost on implementing13 a tag system are -- I feel like the14 benefits of a three buck system are15 hypothetical.16 That's all that I have to say.17 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you,18 Mr. Moses.19 The next speaker will be20 Mr. Jesse Pigg from Lauderdale County.21 MR. PIGG: Good morning. I'm

22 Mr. Jesse Pigg from Lauderdale County.23 I'm here to oppose the three-buck00331 limit. I believe that it would be2 best to put three point on one side3 state wide or we can exempt antler4 deer from this. If we exempt antler

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt5 deer, it will give people a chance to6 keep hunting after they kill the three7 bucks, which is the way Tennessee8 does.

9 He talked about Tennessee, but he10 didn't -- they have got a three-buck11 limit. I hunt Tennessee too, and one12 particular land I hunt on, you can13 kill six bucks bonus deer, above. So14 we need to do something like that so15 that we can keep the hunters in the16 woods, not just put a limit on them17 and make them get out of the woods.18 That way they won't be shooting any19 does. I won't hunt after I kill my20 three bucks.

21 So I wish you would consider22 either putting restrictions on the23 antler state wide or leave it like it00341 is. I think it will be better off.2 Thank you.3 MR. LYNCH: How many bucks did4 you kill last year?5 MR. PIGG: Seven.6 MR. LYNCH: In Alabama?7 MR. PIGG: Yeah. I killed three

8 on Lauderdale management.9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Pigg, please10 speak in the mic.11 MR. PIGG: I'm not a doe hunter.12 I just shoot does one or two a year.13 I don't care about getting does.14 Anymore questions?15 DR. STRICKLAND: What was the age16 you caught?17 MR. PIGG: We have got a three18 point six system, three points on one

19 side of Lauderdale County on the20 management there. They all have three21 points.22 DR. STRICKLAND: So you think two23 and a half?00351 MR. PIGG: Two and a half and

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt2 three and a half.3 Now, I killed one buck at Black4 Warrior that was three points. I5 killed him with a bow. That was the

6 youngest deer I killed.7 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hatley, do you8 have a question?9 MR. HATLEY: Yes.10 Do you pull your jaw bone to age11 your deer?12 MR. PIGG: No. They age them.13 MR. HATLEY: You don't do14 anything yourself?15 MR. PIGG: I can. I can age16 them.17 MR. HATLEY: I'm sure you can.

18 I'm saying did you age any of your19 deer yourself?20 MR. PIGG: Yeah.21 MR. HATLEY: So what would you22 figure the average age of those deer?23 MR. PIGG: Two and a half, three00361 and a half.2 Mr. HATLEY: What is your logic3 for not shooting a doe?4 MR. PIGG: I was raised to not

5 shoot a doe. I have been hunting 456 years, and it is just hard to break a7 habit. It was a sin to shoot a doe8 back when I started hunting. It was9 not just against the law; it was a10 sin.11 MS. NUMMY: Quiet.12 DR. STRICKLAND: It's a sin not13 to shoot them know. Okay. It is14 changed. You can change it.15 MR. PIGG: I admit we need to

16 shoot more doe. When you take the17 hunter out of the woods, they are not18 going to be there to --19 DR. STRICKLAND: Shoot the doe20 first.21 MR. PIGG: That is a good point22 now. Management hunting in Tennessee,

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt23 they say you have got to shoot the doe00371 before you kill the buck. So you2 might consider that, too. But I would

3 like to see it left like it is or4 exempt antler deer or have a three5 point state wide on one side.6 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any question,7 Mr. Hatley?8 MR. HATLEY: Shoot the doe if --9 MR. PIGG: I will shoot a doe if10 you put it that way. If you leave it11 as it is, I will start hunting doe.12 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other13 questions?14 Thank you, Mr. Pigg.

15 MR. PIGG: Thank you, y'all.16 MR. CHAIRMAN: The next speaker17 will be Mr. Mark Thomas from Shelby18 County.19 Is that Dr. Thomas?20 MR. THOMAS: Well, it's -- I'm21 Mark Thomas, certified forestry,22 certified wild life biologist,23 president of --00381 Commissioner Lawley, Commissioner

2 Sparks, Chairman Moultrie, Honorable3 Commissioners, good morning. I4 appreciate the opportunity to be with5 you this morning. I just celebrated6 my 10th year on the national board of7 directors or the Quality Deer8 Management Association. I'm currently9 serving as vice chairman of the board.10 I appreciate your dedication and11 commitment in serving on the Advisory12 Board.

13 Our organization, QDMA, has grown14 from 2,000 members to 50,000 members15 over the last ten years, and on behalf16 of the national QDMA, we fully support17 the implementation of buck limits in18 Alabama. We support all three options19 recommended by the nine-member deer

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt20 advisory panel in the following order21 of preferences: Two-buck limit, both22 hunter choice; three-buck limit, one23 form side; and three-buck limit all

00391 hunter choice.2 Must hunters recognize that a3 healthy deer herd is in balance with4 respect to the buck/doe ratio and the5 buck age structure.6 Thanks to your guidance, the7 buck/doe ratio is nearing equilibrium.8 We have seen tremendous non gain9 impact over the last three years. It10 is best (unintelligible). Song bird11 in tropical migrants and an increase

12 in plant diversity in our state.13 The buck limit will move our deer14 herd in a positive direction towards15 achieving a balance buck age16 structure. This has worked virtually17 everywhere it has been tried.18 In Mississippi a four-point rule19 was implemented in 1995, and hunters20 have realized a four-fold increase in21 the harvest of buck four and a half22 years old and older.

23 In Georgia a two-buck limit was00401 implemented in 2002, one of which had2 to have four points on the side. In3 Georgia hunters have realized a4 three-fold increase in harvesting5 bucks three and a half years old and6 older.7 (Unintelligible) complaints have8 been reduced, and deer vehicle9 collisions have stabilized.

10 So the National QDMA report11 implementing buck limits in Alabama,12 you are doing the right thing at the13 right time. We encourage you to move14 forward and proceed, and we appreciate15 your courage and your leadership.16 Thank you very much.

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt14 in the southeastern states.15 But, you know, in the past this16 potentially has not been a -- in my17 opinion wasted, you know, because the

18 way the law is written right now, a19 hunter can take a buck a day off his20 hunting season which just comes out to21 a ridiculous number if you add that22 up. You know we feel like this is23 definitely a step in the right00431 direction. We hope it passes.2 I would like to close by asking3 the board to sincerely please consider4 this proposal what it hasn't in the5 past.

6 DR. STRICKLAND: We have one more7 question. Are you involved in quality8 deer hunting?9 MR. WITHEROW: I'm not in quality10 deer hunting, QDMA right now, but,11 yes.12 DR. STRICKLAND: How many buck13 did you shoot last year?14 MR. WITHEROW: I shot three15 bucks.16 DR. STRICKLAND: How old were

17 they?18 MR. WITHEROW: The youngest was19 three and a half. The oldest probably20 five and a half.21 DR. STRICKLAND: What weapon did22 you use?23 MR. WITHEROW: Bow. Bow hunting00441 only.2 DR. STRICKLAND: All right.3 MR. WITHEROW: Anywhere from --

4 the youngest one, you know, was around5 115, 118. The biggest I believe was6 136 and a half, something.7 So you know a lot of the8 signatures on the petition are bow9 hunters. You know these aren't guys10 that you know are out there trying to

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt11 shoot a lot of deer. These are guys12 that want to shoot big deer with bow13 and arrow. Guys that really care14 about the size of deer and the overall

15 health and quality of deer.16 DR. STRICKLAND: How many does17 did you shoot?18 MR. WITHEROW: I can't count them19 all. Probably 12, 13.20 DR. STRICKLAND: Very good.21 Thank you.22 MR. WITHEROW: I'm not -- if I23 shoot a buck, I will keep hunting00451 does.2 DR. STRICKLAND: He is probably

3 one of the top buck bow hunters in the4 State of Alabama. I think he's got5 five or six --6 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you,7 Mr. Witherow.8 The next speaker will be9 Mr. Donny Wood from Lee County.10 MR. WOOD: I'd like to thank you11 for the opportunity to address the12 board of commissioners regarding13 institution buck limit.

14 My name is Donny Wood. I'm a15 registered forester and certified16 wildlife biologist, and I represent17 Plum Creek. I am a landowner. I own18 more than 100,000 acres in the state.19 I'm here to provide support for the20 two-buck limit for various reasons. I21 think first it sends a better message.22 There are many that might say23 that education is the best way to0046

1 change buck harvest tendencies. And I2 agree. I agree that education is a3 wonderful tool, but how can any4 educational program compete with the5 very powerful, very strong message6 that a one-buck-a-day limit provides.7 I think another reason I support

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt8 it is because customers want it. I9 worked for about ten years managing10 50,000 acres of deer management11 cooperative in eastern Alabama and

12 western Georgia, and hunters flock to13 those areas. The main reason they14 were interested is because they15 couldn't do it on the leases that they16 had. These cooperatives were 3- to17 5,000 acres. When a club would come18 in, they only had a lease -- you know19 they only had a lease for 40 in that20 cooperative, but they couldn't do it21 outside of the cooperative. And the22 reason they said they couldn't is23 because their neighbors were able to

00471 harvest anything that they wanted to2 so they couldn't manage for a3 better cooperative.4 I think the benefit exceeds the5 cost. The two-buck limit will reduce6 buck harvest by about 40,000 animals.7 These are animals that will move on to8 the next age class.9 The buck limit will only impact a10 very small percentage of your hunters.

11 As most as these gentlemen -- the one12 gentleman talked about his club --13 most people aren't killing more than14 two more than two bucks now.15 Of course, it is going to result16 in better herd dynamics, better17 buck/doe ratio, better age structure,18 and over all quality of your animal19 will increase. Thank you.20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very21 much, Mr. Wood.

22 Any questions of Mr. Wood?23 The next speaker will be Kurby00481 Farris from Fayette County.2 MR. FARRIS: My name is Kurby3 Farris. I live in Walker County. I4 own land in --

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt5 MS. NUMMY: You have to speak up6 to the mic.7 MR. FARRIS: Sorry. Kurby8 Farris. I live in Walker County. I

9 hunt on land in Fayette County. I10 appreciate the opportunity to speak to11 the board.12 I'm here to address the illegal13 use of dog deer hunting in Fayette14 County. The time has changed, and I15 think it's time to for the state to16 change the laws --17 MS. NUMMY: You have to pull the18 mic down.19 MR. FARRIS: I'm a little short.20 I think everybody is here for the

21 same reason. We all like to hunt, but22 I think we need to respect each23 other's ways of hunting, and I'm00491 asking the board for that support to2 change the laws, whatever it takes.3 Private landowners need some help in4 Fayette County. Thank you.5 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very6 much, Mr. Farris.7 The next speaker will be Mr. D.O.

8 Harden from Fayette County.9 MS. NUMMY: Quiet, please.10 MR. CHAIRMAN: If the information11 we call out is incorrect, please feel12 free to correct it.13 MR. HARDEN: Gentlemen, good14 morning. I'm Mr. Harden. I'm a15 landowner in Fayette County. I16 appreciate the opportunity to come17 before you this morning.18 You have heard over and over what

19 our problems are in Fayette County. I20 don't think there is any reason to21 keep reliving that. But the most22 important thing is not that the dog23 hunters are intentionally running over00501 our own property, not theirs, which

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt2 they are even though many of them may3 try not to.4 But we are here -- we are here to5 have a return of our property rights,

6 our private property rights, that we7 don't have any longer. And, you know,8 it's important that we have a place to9 go to be able to solve that problem,10 and this is the only place we have to11 go.12 When our safety, our own property13 is compromised, when our private14 property rights are violated by people15 who are hunting deer with dogs, then16 something needs to be done, and it's17 time. It's past time.

18 I think it's -- it would be a19 tragedy if a complete ban of dog20 hunting in Fayette County was not21 brought forth. We hope you will do22 that, and we appreciate your23 consideration. Thank you.00511 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you,2 Mr. Harden.3 The next speaker will be Mr. Bill4 Herrin in Fayette County.

5 MR. HERRIN: I'm Bill Herrin. I6 live in Walker County.7 MS. NUMMY: You have got to get8 closer.9 MR. HERRIN: I live in Walker10 County and own property in Fayette11 County, and it is family property that12 I grew up on.13 Approximately 60 years ago my14 father, my dad, owned those hills and15 hollows around Boxes Creek and Warren

16 Creek near Highway 13, County Road 44,17 24, and 102.18 This is the particular area that19 we are talking about where the20 problems exist that we are addressing21 today.22 I appreciate the opportunity to

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt23 speak to each of you. That you will00521 take your time to try to resolve the2 differences that we have concerning

3 dog hunting and stock hunting.4 But during those years when I5 traveled that area six, seven years6 old up until I grew up and left that7 part of the country at about 18, I8 could hunt anywhere in the country9 without any permit, without having any10 permission. Just borrow the11 neighbor's dog and just have complete12 freedom to hunt the country.13 There was one specific difference14 then that exist now that was not

15 there. There was very few hunters. I16 could hunt all day. I could take that17 bird dog and leave in the morning and18 come back in the evening and not see19 another group hunting.20 Later, rabbit hunting the same.21 If we had a group that hunted the same22 animal, they worked it one weekend and23 we worked it another weekend, never a00531 conflict. Never any problems

2 whatsoever.3 Now, in this particular area, the4 acreage and farm are divided into5 relatively small areas. Therefore,6 without -- if a club has 1,500 acres.7 It's 200 acres over here, 400 acres8 over here, and then maybe we are9 sitting right between them. Creek10 running east and west.11 (Unintelligible) was running south and12 north, jump the fence, got across the

13 property where they come.14 Okay. Our children and our15 people, our family hunts this16 property. Off on weekends, and then17 this is the same time that all of the18 dog activities are going on. I know19 they don't intend to run through our

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt20 property, but just the logics are, if21 the deer runs, it is going to cross.22 We believe that our rights are23 being infringed on. It interferes

00541 with those kids' opportunity to kill a2 deer.3 I've never shot a deer. I love4 to see them. I like to photograph5 them. I like to watch them as I eat6 breakfast, whatever. But to have my7 rights infringed on now --8 MS. NUMMY: Time is up.9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Please continue.10 Go ahead.11 MR. HERREN: The way the rights

12 are infringed on is that not a single13 one of them pays any property tax,14 plants the green field, pays for the15 insurance, the fertilizer that it16 takes to grow the habitat that will17 produce a quality hunter's dream.18 We believe that if they are not19 contributing anything to it20 whatsoever, that the dogs ought to be21 controlled and kept in the areas where22 it is conducive to hunt without

23 interfering on another man's right.00551 I thank you for the opportunity2 to address you. Thank you for that3 extra 30 seconds. We just appreciate4 your efforts to resolve this issue.5 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.6 The next speaker will be Paul7 Jeffreys from Lamar County.8 MR. JEFFREYS: Members of board,9 I'm speaking to you today. My name is

10 Paul Jeffreys, Lamar County. A few11 years ago -- it's been several years12 ago now that I came before you with13 the same complaints that the14 landowners of Fayette County are15 having, and we asked for a ban on dog16 deer hunting in Lamar, Marion and

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt17 Franklin counties. It has done18 nothing but improve the experience and19 way of life in these three counties,20 and a lot of people have come up here

21 today to ask for buck limits to be22 able to manage their deer herd. Since23 we received our ban on dog deer00561 hunting, I have sat and watched and2 let more bucks walk because I can3 manage it. I planted food plots every4 year in the spring. The deer are5 there. Nobody is infringing on my6 private landowner rights, and I'm7 allowed to utilize my property the way8 I want to with my children.

9 It has been nothing but a10 complete success story. I would like11 to thank each one of y'all on the12 restriction on dog deer hunting in13 those three counties.14 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.15 The next speaker will be Dalbert16 Marsh of Coffee County.17 MR. MARSH: Thank you,18 Mr. Chairman. My name is Dalbert19 Marsh, and my farm is located at

20 3167 County Road 625 in Coffee County,21 Alabama. That's the southeast section22 of Coffee. In 2003 this board heard23 the request of over 300 landowners00571 from that area of the state, and you2 granted us a ban against hunting with3 dogs in the area.4 I made this trip here today also5 to tell what you a success it's been.6 It really works. Our area is really

7 at peace. Landowners feel free to use8 their land as they please including9 hunting themselves, planting green10 fields.11 I'm a member of the Quality Deer12 Management Association where we are13 beginning to put some practices into

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt14 place that we were never able to do15 before, and our neighbors there are16 very thankful of the fact they can now17 use their land as they please.

18 For the first time in 15 years,19 members of my family this past year20 were able to kill and harvest deer off21 of our own farm that we pay taxes and22 have taken care of for years and years23 and years and never been able to hunt00581 because we were overrun by people who2 were trespassing.3 We now have young hunters in my4 family. I have a son 26 years old,5 and my brother has a son 25 years old.

6 They bought hunting licenses this year7 for the first time because they can8 now hunt on our own property, and I9 appreciate that.10 I grew up hunting with a father11 and a grandfather, and I would like to12 think a lot of young folks in Alabama13 would continue to hunt with a father14 and grandfather and learn the value of15 wildlife.16 Each time I have been before you,

17 it's to tell you a story of two or18 three people in our community. And19 I'm going to do that one more time as20 I leave. One of them is a lady by the21 name of Ms. Belle Withams (phonetic.)22 She's now 95 years old. I think she23 was maybe 92 when I talked to you00591 before. She's a very active little2 lady, and she works in her yard year3 round now because she can. She can

4 get out there and do what she wants5 without people running up and down the6 road taking her valuable yard space7 away.8 I talked to you about a friend9 named William Smith. He's an10 African/American friend of mine that

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt11 fought in Korea. He said that he had12 never been through anything quite as13 tough as dealing with this group of14 folk that we had to deal with.

15 And I will also tell you about my16 friend Ronnie Kinnington, who was17 terrorized many times even to the18 point of having the sheriff and your19 enforcement people there to protect20 him on many times.21 And so I'm here today just to22 tell you that this does work. It23 works, and it sends a clear message00601 out that if we will take it -- if you2 will use these bans technically that

3 it will take care of problems. And4 landowners do pay taxes, expenses, do5 all of the things it takes to be a6 landowner.7 And I just thank you for the8 right to ban use of our property and9 all of the people in that area --10 thank you.11 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you,12 Mr. Marsh.13 The next speaker will be Jack

14 Martin from Fayette County.15 Mr. Mark, are you here?16 Robin?17 MS. NUMMY: Mr. Martin has18 declined.19 MR. CHAIRMAN: The next speaker20 will be Mr. Robert Sawada.21 MR. SAWADA: Good morning, ladies22 and gentlemen. My name is Robert23 Sawada. I live in Huntsville, and I'm0061

1 a landowner in Perry County. The2 problem I would like to address with3 you is dog hunting. It's very4 serious, very serious. I see them5 come through with no respect for6 private property.7 I maintain five, two-acre food

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt8 plots, which I spend a lot of money9 on. I spend a lot of time, my son and10 I. I have seen the dog hunters turn11 the dogs loose and run everything off

12 of my property. Denying me the rights13 for myself and my company that I have14 with me, my son, the rights to hunt.15 And that needs to be stopped.16 The other thing is what they are17 doing, they leave the dogs in the18 woods. At night the dogs would run19 all night chasing the game off of --20 they chase them clear out of several21 counties.22 The other thing is they leave the23 dogs there. At the end of season,

00621 they leave the dogs there. They don't2 take the dogs back because it's too3 much for them to maintain the dogs,4 the cost. And I go to my cabin every5 year. When I go to the cabin, I see6 one or two dogs or three dogs by my7 cabin. I have a water trough,8 drinking water.9 The other thing they do, they use10 buckshot. They wound the deer, and I

11 see the deer come by with a hind leg12 or intestines hanging out. It is13 terrible. I see them coming by, does14 and bucks, foaming out of their mouth.15 The dogs running these deer. This is16 inhumane either to the dog or to the17 animals. So we need to do something18 serious about the dog hunters.19 And like I say, I go out and I20 spend a lot of money on taxes plus21 maintaining the food plot, and I'm

22 sure that the game wardens are just as23 much against it as we are, the00631 landowners.2 You see the dogs along the roads3 after the hunting season laying there4 or run over by cars or looking for a

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt5 ride, for someone to pick them up. We6 need serious -- I have addressed a7 letter to the governor, Lieutenant8 Governor to the board previously. I

9 had not received any response in10 reference to the dogs. So I don't11 know.12 I saw them come through food plot13 last hunting season. I was on my food14 plot and my stand. The buck came out.15 It was a ten-point buck. And before I16 even picked up my rifle, the buck was17 gone, and not even a minute later the18 dog the size of a German Shepard came19 out there, and he was stalking the20 buck. Denied me the right to harvest

21 the buck.22 MS. NUMMY: Time.23 MR. SAWADA: Thank you very much.00641 MR. JOHNSON: Where are you at in2 Perry County?3 MR. SAWADA: North Perry County4 off Highway 23.5 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you very6 much.7 MR. SAWADA: Thank you.

8 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.9 The next speaker will be Mr. John10 Dover from Fayette County also.11 MR. DOVER: Good morning. My12 name is John Dover of Fayette County.13 I addressed the board a couple of14 times on the issue of dog hunting in15 Fayette county.16 I received petitions from people17 supporting dog hunting. Also my18 cousin, game warden. We didn't have a

19 single complaint in Fayette county20 about dog hunting last year.21 I asked this board the last time22 we met in Spanish Fort to leave it to23 the people of Fayette County to settle00651 their differences between them.

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt2 Since that time I spoke, not3 speaking out of words. We have got4 one of the biggest county chapter dog5 hunters association. This form is not

6 only for the dog hunters, but for the7 people having problems with the people8 that are in this organization to9 address those problems.10 We approached all the dog hunting11 clubs in Fayette County and they12 expressed interest in joining our13 organization. This adds another14 internal policing mechanism to Fayette15 County. I think it's time. That's16 really all that I have to say.17 I have some business cards being

18 printed up also right now for the19 officers so that people will be able20 to contact of this organization21 Fayette County chapter so that we can22 look at some of these problems.23 MR. COLES: How many dog deer00661 hunting clubs are in Fayette County?2 Do you have any idea?3 MR. DOVER: I had a rough count4 of 25 when we listed off that we knew

5 of.6 MR. COLES: How many of those 257 have already agreed to join the8 Alabama Dog Hunters Association?9 MR. DOVER: We have three that10 have joined up now. And then11 promised, we have about 20.12 MR. HARBIN: I would like to ask13 have you talked with any of these14 landowners that are doing the15 complaining about the dogs running

16 around on unfamiliar land?17 MR. DOVER: I talked to Bill18 Cook.19 MR. HARBIN: What was the result?20 MR. DOVER: Bill actually21 approached -- I believe he had a22 letter from the New Zion club. We

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt23 have been in touch with The New Zion.00671 They expressed interest in the2 organization.

3 MR. HARBIN: How about these4 people that are here today, Mr. Harden5 and Mr. Herrin and several more over6 there?7 MR. DOVER: I would be glad to8 speak with them.9 MR. HARBIN: You haven't done it10 yet?11 MR. DOVER: No sir. I haven't12 spoken with any of them.13 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you,14 Mr. Dover.

15 The next speaker will be Tim16 Fields, Fayette County also.17 MR. FIELDS: I'm Tim Fields.18 Live in Fayette County, own 2,30019 acres of land. We are dog hunters.20 We appreciate you just leaving it like21 it is. We lease about a thousand22 acres. Try to stay on our own land23 and do the best that we can.00681 Appreciate it.

2 MR. HARBIN: How many acres did3 you say you have?4 MR. FIELDS: Sir?5 MR. HARBIN: How many acres do6 you have?7 MR. FIELDS: 2,300.8 MR. HARBIN: 2,300?9 MR. FIELDS: Yes.10 MR. HARBIN: And that is a11 private club, I mean it is a regular12 dog club?

13 MR. FIELDS: Yes, sir.14 MR. HARBIN: Which one is that?15 MR. FIELDS: Rose Hills Hunting16 Club.17 MR. HARBIN: Have you had any18 dogs running on unfamiliar land?19 MR. FIELDS: No, sir.

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt20 MR. HARBIN: Thank you.21 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very22 much, Mr. Fields.23 Next speaker will be Mr. Don

00691 Knight.2 MR. KNIGHT: Good morning,3 gentlemen. I'm Don Knight. I'm the4 state president of the Alabama Dog5 Hunters Association, and I tell you I6 hear things every meeting that never7 seems to amaze me. I can remember8 when a trophy in this state was a9 deer, period. And now we are going10 over and over to try to make the deer11 even larger. Be careful what you do

12 on that line. I just want to throw13 this out.14 Lease land is extremely high now.15 As we increase this and you take16 trophies on a larger scale, you are17 going to also increase the amounts of18 lease that we pay for our land.19 Please don't tell me that's not20 happening because the lease on my club21 goes from $20,000 this year to $45,00022 next year. That's a rather large

23 increase. We don't blame the00701 landowner. He's been offered money.2 He can get it.3 All I'm telling you is our state4 is making a positive effort to make5 our deer herd as good as it can be. I6 continue to see larger deer each and7 every year. I don't know why we need8 to change any of our laws.9 If our biologist ever tell us

10 that we need a law on buck limits,11 horns, or anything else, we will12 support it wholeheartedly.13 Okay. We don't see that. We14 continue to see 200-pound deer coming15 off our properties, and other clubs16 are seeing the same. I think that's

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt14 meeting. That was our first one. We15 had not been up to Lamar, Marion and16 Franklin for years.17 MR. HARBIN: Who did you meet

18 with?19 MR. KNIGHT: Well, you were20 there.21 MR. HARBIN: You are talking22 about in Perry?23 MR. KNIGHT: Yes.00731 MR. HARBIN: I know that meeting2 pretty well.3 MR. KNIGHT: Yes, sir.4 MR. HARBIN: And I was talking5 about -- you said you had formed up

6 some new clubs up there in Fayette7 County?8 MR. KNIGHT: That's correct.9 MR. HARBIN: Have you met with10 the landowners?11 MR. KNIGHT: We haven't had time,12 Mr. Harbin.13 MR. CHAIRMAN: Please allow14 Mr. Harbin to ask his whole question.15 MR. HARBIN: All I want to ask is16 what is the remedy that you have come

17 up with? What have you done to solve18 the problem?19 MR. KNIGHT: We formed a board.20 We are trying to get it in the paper21 where they will have somebody to22 contact and talk with where we can23 discuss these problems.00741 We have got to have a little bit2 of time to be able to work on the3 problem. We have got to know the

4 problems to start with, and we are5 tying to get those listed as we go,6 and we have got a place now that they7 can go to work with these people.8 It is not going to happen9 overnight. If you want something to10 happen overnight, it is not going to

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt11 happen. We are tying to work with the12 people trying to keep our dogs off of13 their land, try to work with them as14 much as we can. We have got to talk

15 to these people and start the process.16 MR. HARBIN: I'm just asking,17 shouldn't you do that before the18 hunting season starts?19 MR. KNIGHT: We are tying it20 right now, yes, sir.21 MR. HARBIN: These people know22 who are running dogs on unfamiliar23 lands.00751 MR. KNIGHT: They are trying2 to --

3 MR. HARBIN: And that is the4 problem, not having control of these5 dogs, and these people intentionally6 or purposely, they just don't want7 dogs on their land, and that is their8 right.9 Why should we wait until hunting10 season or after hunting season to11 address this problem? Why not do it12 now?13 MR. KNIGHT: We are not waiting.

14 We are in the process of getting15 this -- I think the gentleman could16 come back up here and tell you that we17 are in the process of getting these18 things issued in the paper where these19 people will know who to contact. We20 will sit down with them and try to21 discuss each individual problem and go22 from there and try to come up with a23 remedy.0076

1 MR. HARBIN: What I'm asking you2 is this: Why not let the local people3 talk? Let the local dog hunters talk4 with these local non dog hunters now?5 MR. KNIGHT: We are welcome.6 That's what the gentleman just stood7 up here and told you. They are

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt8 welcome.9 MR. HARBIN: But time has run out10 to be honest with you.11 MR. KNIGHT: They are welcome to

12 talk with them right now. We have no13 problems. That's the reason we formed14 this organization. That's the reason15 we are going to put it in the paper so16 they will know who to call. There is17 going to be names and phone numbers18 where they can call somebody. We can19 sit down tomorrow and talk to these20 people, Mr. Harbin. That's what we21 want to do. That's the effort we are22 trying to put forth.23 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sparks, do you

00771 have comments?2 COMMISSIONER SPARKS: Yes. That3 is correct. The one comment I like to4 make. I strongly -- I would like to5 strongly encourage that you continue6 to do what you are doing. I don't7 know of anything that comes across my8 desk more than dog hunting property9 rights. This is a problem and there10 are some folks that do not have -- I

11 know you said we are not going to get12 rid of them. I don't think we will13 ever solve this problem until we do14 get rid of them. I strongly encourage15 you, the dog hunter associations, to16 do everything in your power. I don't17 know what's going to happen here18 today. But I know that it is a19 serious issue, and I know that I'm20 going to put some attention to it.21 And I strongly encourage you to make

22 every effort possible. If we are23 covering up for those who have no00781 regards for the law, I strongly2 suggest you uncover them. Let's get3 them in line. Let's make sure that4 these folks that have the land have

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt5 respect of the hunters; that we do6 have a mechanism that we can solve7 some of these problems.8 You know I come to a few of these

9 meetings. You can come to one of them10 or you can come to ten of them, and11 you basically hear the same thing over12 and over.13 I am encouraged by a comment that14 you made; that you are going to make a15 difference; that are you going to meet16 with the landowners, and that you are17 going to try to do something to self18 police. And I strongly encourage you19 to put every ounce of effort that you20 possibly can in trying to do that.

21 MR. KNIGHT: That's exactly what22 we are trying to do.23 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other00791 questions for Mr. Knight?2 MR. HARBIN: Mr. Knight, what is3 y'all's membership? Are y'all state4 wide?5 MR. KNIGHT: State wide about6 10,000.7 MR. CHAIRMAN: Fayette County

8 what would the membership be?9 MR. KNIGHT: I would say -- it's10 in the process of growing. I would11 say around 300.12 MR. CHAIRMAN: Very good. Any13 other questions?14 MR. HARBIN: How many of that 30015 in Fayette County is dog deer hunting,16 not rabbit or bird hunting?17 MR. KNIGHT: Ask them about what18 percentage is the dog deer hunters

19 versus rabbit hunters or coon hunters?20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Probably21 100 to 1.22 MR. KNIGHT: Which would be dog23 hunters?00801 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, deer

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt23 back.00821 And I hope that the board can2 come up with some kind of something

3 that will help us so our animals will4 not be shot. That's all that I have5 to say. Thank you.6 COMMISSIONER SPARKS: I have a7 question.8 MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Morrow,9 question from Commissioner Sparks.10 COMMISSIONER SPARKS: What do you11 recommend?12 MS. MORROW: To publicize more13 that it is against the law to shoot a14 dog, and to maybe -- in the hunting

15 book to maybe take half a page or so16 and dedicate it.17 COMMISSIONER SPARKS: Do you18 really believe that the landowners do19 not know that it is against the law to20 shoot a dog?21 MS. MORROW: I think some of them22 do. I think there has been so many23 dogs shot now, and they have gotten00831 away with it.

2 In our case in Choctaw County,3 they come to the hunting clubs, stock4 hunters do, and they tell us I don't5 know whose dog it was. I didn't get6 close enough, but I was in my shooting7 house, and I heard a dog. Y'all are8 in a dog hunting club. And if it9 happens again, I'm going to get a10 petition up. We are going to do away11 with the dog hunting around here.12 We are not the only dog hunting

13 club there. They come and they are14 constantly telling us that. I don't15 know what the answer is, but I think16 that --17 COMMISSIONER SPARKS: That's what18 I'm asking you. I think sometimes we19 need solutions to help us understand

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt17 deer to come up and enter into the18 high fenced area and not be able to19 exit that area. I said I was going to20 work with the enforcement and come to

21 this meeting with a regulation that I22 am now going to read, and I would like23 to submit it for acceptance today.00861 "The season for hunting all2 species of deer shall be closed3 within any enclosure capable of4 confining deer where: One, there5 exists or has existed any6 man-made point of access that7 allows deer to enter the8 enclosure, including, but not

9 limited to, any man-made ramp,10 platform, funnel, maze, or11 one-way gate; or, two, any bait12 has been placed so as to lure13 deer through any man-made opening14 into any such completed15 enclosure.16 "The deer season shall be17 closed within any such enclosure18 from the date the owner or19 operator of the enclosure is

20 notified by Wildlife and21 Freshwater Fisheries Division22 Enforcement personnel. The deer23 season shall remain closed for00871 two years after such devices are2 removed or such conditions no3 longer exist. The owner or4 operator shall notify any persons5 who may hunt within the enclosure6 of the closed deer season."

7 So I'm submitting that for a vote8 today.9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you have a10 motion, Mr. Lynch?11 MR. LYNCH: Yeah, I have a motion12 to include this in the new regulations13 going forth from this point.

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt14 MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there a second?15 MR. JOHNSON: Second.16 MR. LYNCH: I don't have anymore.17 MR. CHAIRMAN: Discussion from

18 any of the board members?19 The motion is -- let me have that20 again.21 MR. COLES: For clarification,22 what has happened is they built a berm23 next to a high fence and put bait00881 inside the high fence and were luring2 the deer to come up on the berm and3 jump into this high fence, and then4 they were not able to escape.5 So the regulation is to prevent

6 this or prohibit this.7 MR. LYNCH: Additionally in8 talking with the officers, it is also9 being done where people actually open10 up gates and bait them with a pile of11 corn going into the closure and shut12 the gate behind them.13 So we really wanted to have it14 handle all issues, not just the ramp15 issue, but one-way gates and16 everything else that they are seeing

17 out there. But it will correct all of18 these policies or those actions that19 we currently know about.20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Anybody else? The21 motion is for:22 "The season for hunting all23 species of deer shall be closed00891 within any enclosure capable of2 confining deer where: One, there3 exists or has existed any

4 man-made point of access that5 allows deer to enter the6 enclosure, including, but not7 limited to, any man-made ramp,8 platform, funnel, maze, or9 one-way gate; or, two, any bait10 has been placed so as to lure

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt11 deer through any man-made opening12 into any such completed13 enclosure.14 "The deer season shall be

15 closed within any such enclosure16 from the date the owner or17 operator of the enclosure is18 notified by Wildlife and19 Freshwater Fisheries Division20 Enforcement personnel. The deer21 season shall remain closed for22 two years after such devices are23 removed or such conditions no00901 longer exist. The owner or2 operator shall notify any persons

3 who may hunt within the enclosure4 of the closed deer season."5 All of those in favor of passing?6 (ALL BOARD MEMBERS SAID "AYE.")7 MR. CHAIRMAN: All opposed?8 (NO RESPONSE)9 MR. CHAIRMAN: If there is no10 opposition, the motion passes.11 The next order of business in the12 old business is buck limits. The13 commissioner -- do you have somebody

14 to speak on it? Do you want to speak15 on it?16 COMMISSIONER LAWLEY: Thank you,17 Dan.18 Y'all have instructed me at the19 last advisory board meeting to select20 a committee to have a wildlife21 biologist to study this, to report22 back at the meeting for the board's23 consideration. We did that and had a0091

1 great committee. We have sent2 everybody a report. What Dr. Steve3 Ditchkoff has done, he wrote up a4 report of what they had suggested. At5 this time I would like to call on him6 to present that to the board.7 MR. DITCHKOFF: Thank you. I'm

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt8 not sure if it is my pleasure or if I9 drew the short straw here.10 I'm assuming each of you had the11 opportunity to read the report that I

12 put together regarding the committee13 meeting that he had on April 4th. I14 spent a little bit of time here15 talking about that, summarizing some16 of the committee's feelings with17 regard to the issues that were18 reported in there.19 We met on April 4th at the20 request of commissioner and there were21 nine individuals. I believe all of22 the individuals on the committee were23 wildlife scientists -- and we were

00921 asked to address the following2 questions.3 Question Number One, is there a4 need to limit the number of adult male5 deer harvested in Alabama?6 Number Two, if there is a need,7 what methods would be appropriate for8 both the deer and hunters of the9 state?10 Finally Number Three, what

11 research would be necessary to ensure12 proper management of deer in Alabama13 if such a regulation is passed?14 Prior to discussing our15 objectives in detail, I will let Mr.16 Moody and Mr. Pugh get their input on17 this process so they can incorporate18 all the key points because they19 obviously were apart of what was20 discussed at that meeting.21 With regards to the need for buck

22 limits, it was immediately apparent23 that all members of committee felt00931 that it would be beneficial for the2 State of Alabama to have some sort of3 limit in place; to have some4 regulations that will allow more males

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt5 to -- it was felt that a buck limit6 would serve to produce herd at7 one-and-a-half-year-old males and get8 more deer into overage classes.

9 If you take a look at data from10 Tennessee, I don't have any of that11 data with me. They at one time had an12 11-buck limit. They went to two-buck13 limit. I'm not sure of exactly14 everything that happened. They may15 have gone back to three and back to16 two.17 If you take a look at the data18 since that time, there's been a steady19 increase in the harvest of overage20 class bucks.

21 Now, I will be the first to say22 that harvest does not necessarily say23 what the standard crop of deer is that00941 is out there. When I take a look at2 the harvest data and the records3 relate that to the deer that are4 actually present in the state. But in5 reality, you can say that hunters in6 Tennessee are harvesting more deer7 than were in the past.

8 Without question the committee9 felt that a buck limit would be10 biologically beneficial to the herd.11 There are numerous reasons why it12 would be biological beneficial. I13 could go into those here. I think it14 would take a lot of time, but I will15 be happy to answer those questions in16 terms biological benefits after this17 if you want me to.18 Obviously, if there were more

19 older males in the herd, those deer20 hunters that are more interested in21 quality harvest as opposed to22 quantity, there would be obviously23 benefits there as well at least the00951 opportunity to harvest those sorts of

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt2 deer.3 The committee felt that a buck4 limit of one would be too few. That5 would be too restrictive. At the same

6 time, the committee felt that a buck7 limit of four would not achieve the8 desired results. There were three9 scenarios that the committee felt10 would be appropriate, and the11 committee felt in general that this12 board should have the opportunity to13 consider these three scenarios and14 decide amongst those three.15 In order of preference, the most16 preferred scenario was a two-buck17 limit. Those two bucks could be no

18 antler restrictions or anything like19 that, two bucks of choice during20 hunting season.21 The second preference was three22 bucks but one of those bucks must have23 four points on the side.00961 The third chose was a three-buck2 limit, no restrictions on the buck.3 The two-buck limit was the4 preferred choice of the committee

5 because of the obvious biological6 benefits. We felt that more7 restrictions with greater benefits for8 the herd in the state of Alabama.9 The committee also felt -- there10 was long discussion with regards to --11 obviously we are biologists. We are12 trying to approach this from a13 biological perspective. But without14 question, there are social15 implications, political implications,

16 and these were discussed at length.17 The committee felt -- there is no18 data to support this -- but in19 general, the committee felt that there20 would be wide support for buck limit.21 Previous data from a survey put forth22 a number of years ago, I don't

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt23 remember if it was 2002 or 2003, there00971 was greater than 50 percent support.2 There was support for some form of

3 buck limit. Though specifics in4 regards to those buck limits was not5 included in that survey.6 Something that's been -- the7 second questions dealt with -- I guess8 the third issue we were supposed to9 deal with was research or monitoring.10 Any good monitoring program has some11 form of monitor or research attached12 to it. It was felt that if something13 was put in place here, it would be14 very important that a monitoring

15 system would also be incorporated into16 the system.17 One of the problems that we are18 at today is it's very difficult to go19 back and actually evaluate what has20 happened in the past with regards to21 the state in general. We have good22 data regarding the overall harvest in23 state, but it is very difficult to00981 evaluate what exactly is being

2 harvested with the exception of those3 properties that have been under the4 deer management program in the past.5 Regular evaluation from this6 point forward, if something was put in7 place or something was not put in8 place would be important to evaluate9 progress or herd improvements.10 In addition, it would also be a11 way to evaluate our satisfaction. It12 is very difficult to gauge hunters

13 satisfaction when you only hear from14 two extremes. You hear from those15 that are very supportive or those that16 are strongly opposed. There are a lot17 of individuals in the middle.18 The data the committee felt would19 be very blunt would be age structure

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt17 their wallets. If they are checked by18 an enforcement officer, then what they19 have is documented evidence that they20 have checked that deer. Any

21 enforcement officer does not require22 anything greater than an enforcement23 officer to go check hunters, but if01011 they see a hunter with a buck, they2 have the opportunity, and they can3 legitimately check and see if that4 individual has checked that deer. It5 is a self-check system.6 It is no different than an7 enforcement officer checking duck8 hunters coming out of the swamp in the

9 morning. If you have your hunting10 license with you, how many ducks did11 you shoot.12 It will also provide the13 opportunity for the enforcement14 officers to randomly every now and15 then to swing by a deer processor.16 There is a lot of deer that go through17 there. If there are three bucks18 sitting there -- these hunters know if19 you are taking the deer out in public

20 that they are going to have to have21 that because there is a good chance22 they will be checked.23 The committee did not feel that01021 that would be any undue burden on the2 enforcement officers.3 The committee felt that it would4 actually make enforcement easier over5 the current situation.6 Right now there's a one-buck

7 limit, one buck per day. There's no8 way to know whether or not a hunter9 harvested one buck in the morning and10 one in the evening. How often that11 happens, I have no idea. But there is12 currently no system in place if you13 ever do that. This would be an

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt11 we believe it is an improvement over12 the current situation.13 In addition, you know based upon14 the data that is available, it's also

15 approved by the majority of hunters in16 the state.17 If you have any questions, I will18 be happy to address them.19 MR. CHAIRMAN: DR. STRICKLAND.20 DR. STRICKLAND: I have one21 question.22 MR. CHAIRMAN: During this23 conversation if everyone will speak01051 into the portable microphone please.2 Thank you.

3 DR. STRICKLAND: Steve, I realize4 this may be a difficult question for5 you to answer. What do you feel the6 difference in two bucks versus three7 bucks? I think it is going to be8 confusing time --9 MR. DITCHKOFF: I don't have the10 numbers in front of me. Maybe other11 individuals in this room do have some12 of those numbers with regard to that13 Alabama survey.

14 If you take a look at the numbers15 with regard to how many bucks are16 harvested per hunter in the state,17 there were estimates based on the18 three-buck limit. I don't know if it19 was 5,000 or five percent. I don't20 know if you guys remember what the21 numbers are. If there was a two buck,22 there was 25 percent savings in bucks.23 I'm making these numbers up. I can't0106

1 remember what they were. There was --2 obviously if it is 5 percent versus 203 or 5 versus 25 percent, that is a big4 difference.5 The committee felt however that6 one of the things in this state that7 most people don't like would actually

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt8 be a benefit. There is a late rut in9 Alabama. With the rut being in10 January. There's obviously biological11 disadvantages to that in regards to

12 living on farms and that sort of13 thing.14 But considering that the hunting15 season in Alabama, that the rut is16 right at the end of the hunting17 season, the committee felt that there18 would be a lot of hunters that would19 save their buck tags until the end of20 the season. If there is a three-buck21 limit, a lot of hunters may shoot that22 first buck and say this could be two23 good --

01071 Hunters are going to want to hunt2 during the rut. As a result there is3 going to be a lot of tags that would4 not be filled. There would be5 additional savings in addition to what6 we are projecting with that survey.7 What the impact is, I don't know.8 Any improvement would be beneficial.9 But I think the improvement would be10 far reaching two-buck limit as opposed

11 to the three. I don't know how to12 describe that in terms of --13 DR. STRICKLAND: One other14 question. Let's say that the buck15 limit is passed, how many years do you16 think it would take to see a change in17 the age structure, buck to doe ratio18 in the state of Alabama? Is that a --19 MR. DITCHKOFF: Data out of20 Arkansas has indicated that when you21 protect an age class of deer, when you

22 protect one-half-year old bucks,23 essentially what you do is you move01081 that harvest to two and a half year2 olds. When Arkansas passed the three3 point rule, they protected their year4 and a half old bucks and they

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt2 actually walking around out there.3 Number Three, is hunter4 satisfaction. Number Four, is what's5 actually being harvested.

6 So it depends on how you measure7 success.8 DR. STRICKLAND: Thank you.9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Wait a minute.10 MR. HARBIN: What is the state11 wide buck/doe ratio?12 MR. DITCHKOFF: Couldn't tell13 you.14 MR. HARBIN: How long would it15 take this extra -- it would be based16 on the harvest. How long would it17 take to catch up with the right -- I

18 guess how many does to a buck?19 MR. DITCHKOFF: Well, it depends20 on what the current situation is right21 now. It depends the effect on, you22 know, doe population. What happens to23 doe harvest when you reduce buck01111 limits? It is a very difficult2 question. It is not one that I can3 really answer. I think it would be4 improvement over time. How long does

5 it take to get there, I think that's6 part of what the monitoring process7 is.8 One of the most difficult things9 to do is actually evaluate what the10 standard of deer is at any particular11 time.12 When you ask me what that is, I13 think that's a question that would be14 better directed towards those15 individuals that manage the deer in

16 this state.17 MR. HARBIN: How do we know18 whether we are killing too many does19 or not if you don't know what the20 ratio is state wide? I mean, I know21 it is different in different counties.22 MR. DITCHKOFF: If you want to

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt23 properly manage deer on a piece of01121 property, what you need to do is take2 a look at the condition of those deer

3 and you need to take a look at4 actually what the condition of the5 habitat is, whether or not it is being6 overrun.7 I honestly don't think you can8 kill to many does on a piece of9 property.10 MR. HARBIN: I don't know. I11 want to ask Mr. Moody -- when you get12 through I would like to ask Mr. Moody13 his opinion on this subject. I'm just14 not satisfied that this is what we

15 should do.16 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Moody, if you17 would address Mr. Harbin's question on18 your opinion. However, before you do19 that, if you would clear out -- I20 think it would be good for the board21 the same issues as Dr. Ditchkoff22 brought up and Mr. Harbin brought up.23 Just for clarification, what is01131 the current estimated population of

2 the deer in the state of Alabama?3 MR. MOODY: Approximately 1.84 million.5 MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the6 current buck/doe ratio estimate in the7 entire state of Alabama?8 MR. MOODY: We do not know.9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Would you have a10 guess?11 MR. MOODY: No.12 MR. CHAIRMAN: You don't have any

13 idea whatsoever?14 MR. MOODY: We know that our15 harvest is in better balance in the16 past five or six years after17 harvesting more does than bucks, but18 we do not have a figure to tell you19 what that population is.

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Would you say we21 are headed in the right direction?22 But must you still have more does than23 bucks.

01141 MR. MOODY: We felt like there2 were quite a bit when we started our3 effort ten years ago to increase doe4 harvest. And at that time doe harvest5 was very minimum. Now it's very6 significant. It is approaching7 230,000.8 MR. CHAIRMAN: So at that time9 when you initiate the doe harvest at10 that time, you felt that there was11 more does at that time. What do you

12 feel --13 MR. MOODY: We did not have a14 figure we used in terms of state wide15 population. And that is a good point16 there. There are areas that are well17 managed and areas that are not. On18 state wide basis we were well19 overpopulated. We did not have --20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you have an21 idea what a biologically sound buck to22 doe ratio should be?

23 MR. MOODY: You know ultimately01151 we would like to have one to one. I2 don't think we are going to get3 there -- one to two or one to three we4 will be in pretty good shape.5 MR. GOODWYN: Can you speak up a6 little?7 MR. MOODY: One to one would8 be -- what ultimately would be one to9 two, one to three, those would be

10 pretty good shape.11 MR. CHAIRMAN: So you would think12 then we are above the one to three?13 MR. MOODY: In some areas.14 MR. CHAIRMAN: State wide?15 MR. MOODY: State wide, probably16 so.

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt17 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right.18 Mr. Moody.19 Mr. Harbin, your question for20 Mr. Moody was?

21 MR. HARBIN: I want to know, do22 you think we need a buck limit in the23 state of Alabama?01161 MR. MOODY: No, sir.2 MR. HARBIN: Okay. I'd like to3 ask Mr. Andress about how are we going4 to do that?5 MR. MOODY: Mr. Harbin, may I6 expand on that just a little bit? Do7 you mind?8 MR. HARBIN: Not a bit.

9 MR. MOODY: I agree and we agree10 as biologists that there needs to be a11 well managed deer herd in the state.12 And the objectives that this committee13 has reported and those that made the14 recommendation and what we want to see15 are not dissimilar. We are all16 wanting to see the same thing.17 One thing this whole proposal has18 done is at least it allowed us to have19 a better forum, better discussion

20 about the deer issues in our state.21 Our deer herd is our number one22 game animal and the most important23 resource that we have got out there as01171 far as the hunters are concerned for2 recreation standpoint and . We3 certainly recognize that.4 It has also made us aware that5 the hunting public, at least a segment6 of the hunting public, may have a

7 perception of what is going on with8 our harvest and our deer herd that9 doesn't necessarily match reality.10 Several years ago when we started11 our efforts -- this would have been12 about ten years ago when we started13 our efforts to make the public aware

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt14 of the need to harvest does at a15 higher rate and do a better job.16 There was also a second message in17 there, and that was that we needed to

18 do a better job of showing restraint19 on buck harvest. We were not very20 overt with that message. It was more21 of a sub-message, and that may have22 been a mistake, but we did not want to23 confuse a message at the time that we01181 felt like the greater need was to get2 mouths off the ground and make people3 aware of the need to harvest does.4 Ever since that time, we have5 been very consistent in our message to

6 the public about showing restraint on7 bucks, having a balanced buck/doe8 ratio and allowing bucks to reach a9 more mature age. That's in everything10 that we have written, in all of our11 biologists meetings.12 We think that it has been well13 received by the hunting public, and we14 base that on the numbers from our15 surveys which Dr. Ditchkoff referred16 to and agreed that it was a good

17 survey and data numbers.18 Our doe harvest in that short19 period of time, the ten years, has20 increased over 75,000 animals per year21 being harvested. That's a pretty good22 job especially since we started out23 with a lot of people that just were01191 adamantly opposed to harvesting does.2 What is less well recognized is3 that during that same time period, the

4 buck harvest is down 50,000 per year,5 and it's trending downward, and that6 is a pretty remarkable accomplishment,7 and we feel like, one, the hunters8 need to be applauded in making that9 effort in the decision they make. We10 are harvesting 50,000 animals a year

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt11 less now than we were ten years ago,12 50,000 bucks.13 There are some other concerns14 that we have. If our population

15 estimates are correct or anywhere16 close to correct, we are only17 harvesting total, even though we18 harvested more does than bucks, we are19 still only harvesting about 25 percent20 of the total population. And every21 deer manager that I talked to and deer22 model shows you have got to harvest at23 least 35 percent to stay at a level of01201 population. So state wide we are2 still not at a level that we need to

3 be to maintain even consistent4 population. The only way to do that5 is to get mouths off.6 Every deer manager will tell you7 also if you have got an overcrowded8 situation, the most important thing is9 to get mouths off the ground. You10 have got to do that. You have got to11 get to the carrying capacity on a12 piece of property before you can make13 a positive management decision. So we

14 are very concerned about that.15 It is also obvious to us that16 just reducing the number of bucks17 harvested doesn't do some of the18 things that have been indicated that19 it will be successful on a buck limit.20 It does not automatically get deer in21 older age classes. We are 50,00022 bucks less than we were ten years ago.23 Every year 50,000 bucks less.0121

1 If that was the case, then, you2 know, we would -- I think we would see3 more of what this committee and others4 indicate they want to see we would be5 seeing.6 It takes a lot of hard work on7 habitat, and it takes a lot of

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conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt8 selectivity in points. It is a9 multi-piece part of the puzzle. It10 takes a lot of understanding and11 education to get the