68 בס '' ד Shiur 11 – P. 86 © 2013 E. Horowitz V 3 Salting meat in a solid kli Status of the meat Two Questions 1.How much of the meat is assur? 2.How

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Shiur 11 – P. 86

V 3

Salting meat in a solid kliStatus of the meat

Two Questions1. How much of the meat is assur?2. How long until the meat is assur?

Salted meat in a מנוקב שאינו כלי

(Shouldn’t do this)ציר

A: Part above Tzir

B: When C: S’vora Why tzir ossurs meat

1 Rabbeinu PeretzRabbeinu Tam (Prisha – 2)Rama

Assur When blood starts to come out of meat

שפירש למקום דם ממקוםAnd blood won’t drain

2 Rabbeinu Tam (Prisha – 1) Mutar When blood starts to come out of meat

Blood that comes out is driven back into the meat by the tzir

3 R’ Yehudah M’Bartzalona (Mutar) After shiur melicha בלע לא לפלוט דטריד איידי

4 Rosh Mutar על מים שיתנו שיעורלהרתיח ויתחילו האש

Meat is pickled in its blood

5 Mechaber Klipa is assur

Like the Rosh • Blood spreads upwards a klipa (Shach)• Can’t measure precisely (Minchas Yaakov)

Klipa above tzir

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Shiur 11 – P. 88ChalitaPlace meat in boiling water after salting

Chalita

Rambam’s Opinion

A B C

Why does Rambam require chalita?

When is chalita required

Why salt?Why not just do chalita?

1 Ran (Bais Yosef) Salting does not remove all of the blood.

Always Surface of meat will become assur before chalita starts to work

2 Aruch Hashulchan Salting will pull out all blood after 36 minutes

If meat salted less than 36 minutes

Salting does work after 36 minutes

Halacha L’Ma’aseh

1 Bais Yosef, Shach Do it if possible (chumra)

2 Mechaber (Stam), Rama Don’t need even with only 18 minutes of salting

3 Aruch Hashulchan Don’t need if meat slated for one hour

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Shiur 12 – P. 92

1. Salted meat properly

4. Filled up with tzir

Ma’aseh D’Rashi

CASE 11. Salted meat properly2. Did not rinse meat3. Placed in a מנוקב שאינו כלי4. Filled up with tzir

AAB B B

3. Placed in a כלימנוקב שאינו

CASE 21. Salted meat (B) properly2. Placed in a מנוקב שאינו כלי3. Filled up with tzir 4. Removed meat (B)5. Salted meat (A) properly6. Placed in tzir of meat (B)

1. Salted meat (B) properly



4. Removed meat (B) 5. Salted meat (A) properly

6. Placed in tzir of meat (B)

2. Did not do hadacha achrona

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Shiur 12 – P. 92

Status of meat(And meat A in second case)

1 Mechaber Mutar B'diavad2 Yeish (Mechaber) Assur Mahol is like blood3 Yeish (Rama)

Tosefos, Ra’aimAssur klipa immediately Mahol is hot (Shach)

4 Rama Assur klipa that which is in tzir5 Mutar any part out of tzir6 Rashi Mutar7 Rashal (Taz) Part in tzir is assur if pickled Tzir has blood8 Rashal (Shach) Mutar if meat in tzir is 60x tzir9 Rashal (REA) Assur klipa even if meat in tzir is 60x tzir10 Rama (Shach) Assur klipa no matter how long it stayed in tzir

Cases 1 and 2 on previous page

Opinions about Ma’aseh D’Rashi

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Shiur 12 – P. 93

מנוקב כלי

Salted meat properly Wash it well

מנוקב שאינו כלי

Can now salt to preserver it

If there is any tzir, it is of no concern at all.

Salted meat properly

Can roast immediately after salting without hadacha achrona.

מנוקב כלי


מנוקב כלי

Meat sat in salt for some time

(problem)

Wash it well Roast meat

Roast meat

Fix for problem

Other Cases of the Mechaber

Case 1

Case 2

Case 3

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Shiur 12 – P. 93Roasting Instead of Salting

1 Mechaber Until all of the blood has flowed out

2 Ran (Rashal (Taz))Tur

C’Machal Ben Drusoi (MBZ = ½ cooked)

3 Rashba (Taz)Ohr ZaruahTaz

Fit for most people to eat

4 Sha’arai Dura (Taz)Taz – Roi L’NahugMBZ – L'chatchila

Most women cook until outside is dry

How long do you have to roast it?

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Shiur 12 – P. 93Problem 2:Does tzir cause blood on surface get reabsorbed?

Problem 1:Does tzir contain blood that will be reabsorbed?

A Closer Look at Case 1Ma’ase D’Rashi

Answer to questions1. Rashi

• After shiur melicha• Tzir is only mohel• Has no blood.

2. Rashi (Tosefos)• Mohel is no different than water• Can soak meat in water after salting • So too, can soak meat in mohel

after saltingמוהל לי מה מים לי מה

Did not do hadacha achrona


Why doesn’t tzir drive blood back into meat?

1 Tosefos Surface blood is dried up after salting

2 Rosh Salt is now weakened

3 Bach Mohel dissolves salt like water does

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Shiur 12 – P. 95

1. Salted duck 2. Placed on other meat

Did not do hadacha achrona

3. Notices duck is treif

Case 1 – Duck on Meat Case 2 – Bird Falls into Kutach

ʩʥʠ

Case 1 Status of other meat S’vora

1 Rosh, Smag (Taz) Mutar Tzir not hot after melicha

2 Trumas Hadeshen Mutar in hefsed m’rubeh and seudas mitzvah

Only in a hefsed since Smak (Taz) holds salt is still hot after melicha.

All hold this is assurSalty kutach cooks bird with foodSalt stays hot since not drawing out bloodNote - this bird is not treif

Treif Duck atop Other Meat

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Main question – is salt still hot?

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Shiur 12 – P. 96




Case Kli

1 Rama Any Kli Assur

2 Rama (Shach) Other than cheres Assur Klipa Melicha only ossurs k’dai klipa

Kli CheresKli where klipa can’t be removed

Assur3

4 Minchas Ya’akov (Sifsai Da’as)

Any Kli Assur Klipa

5 Shach (Sifsai Da’as) Fell outside of kli cheres Assur Klipa


Status of Kli

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Shiur 12 – P. 96




Case Meat

1 Rama Milk pot w/ milk residue Assur

2 Taz Clean milk pot Assur Nekudas Hakesef : Question: מליחה איןבכליםChavas Da’as: Answer: • Salt will not remove blood blios from kli• Salt will remove milk blios from a kli

3 Chavas Da’as Clean milk pot Mutar Salt will not take out milk blios from kli

4 Rama (Shach)

Milk pot w/ milk residue Mutar b’hefsed m’rubeh & seudas mitzvah

Like the Trumas Hadeshen(see kutach case above)


Milk pot

Milk residue

Milk Kli

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Shiur 12 – P. 97Washing the Meat

Mechaber: According to this even though the meat was salted for “shiur melicha” it is assur to eat it until it is washed “yafa yafa”

QuestionWhy only “According to this” (i.e., only those who disagree with Rashi)? Everyone holds that we need hadacha achrona?

Possible Answers – Those who disagree with Rashi will say…

1 Shach (1) • Tzir is not like water.• Tzir has blood and is hot.• Once tzir done coming out, it will push blood back into meat.• Must wash before all tzir comes out.

2 Shach (2) • Even if you remove klippa of meat, still must wash meat since the additional tzir that comes out still contains blood.• Washing will close up the nikvei plaita and stop the tzir from coming out.

3 Taz • According to Rashi, you don’t have to do hadacha achrona right away.• You can put it in a kli sh’aino m’nukav and wash it later.• Others hold you can not put meat in a kli until it is washed.• Forced answer. Not evident from text of Mechaber.

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Shiur 12 – P. 97Status of knife if meat cut before hadacha achrona

Status of knife

1 Yaish (Mechaber) Needs Hagala

2 Bach Needs Hagala Surface salt is hot (even according to Rashi)

3 Rashi (Bais Yosef) Knife OK b’diavad

4 Not like Rashi (Bais Yosef) Need Hagala Because tzir has blood

5 Mechaber (Shach)Sephardim

Knife OK b’diavad

6 RamaAshkenazim

Can cut with knife l’chatchila

Knife not in contact with meat for a long period of time. (Nekudas Hakesef)

7 Taz Knife OK b’diavad Even before shiur melicha


2. Did not do hadacha achrona 3. Cut the meat

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Shiur 13 – P. 101

1. First tzir with blood comes out

2. Then tzir without blood comes out

Blood from top piece will not ossur bottom piece as long as tzir is coming out of bottom piece.

Meat with chicken ok too

Fish without scalesMechaber: Fish assur k’dai klipah, meat is mutarRAMA: Fish needs 60x meat

Fish with scalesFish mutar

Salting Stacks of MeatSalting ALL pieces

Salting ALL pieces

Salting meat & Fish

Salting meat & Fish

Mechaber – Pocket of blood does not ossur meat.

RAMA – turn over meat to empty

NOTE: Top pieces must be placed prior to shiur melicha of bottom piecesCf. 70:6, Shiur 16, (PMG: Case 1, Stage 4)

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Blood from an upper piece of meat flowing over a lower piece of meat

דםציר נקבי

פליטה

Mechanisms for Blood Flowing Over Meat

A B C D E

Rabbosav of the Rashba ת'' ר R”Y M’Orleans מפרשים יש 'תוס

1 שיטא Salt alone removes absorbed blood from meat

מישרק שריק

פליטה נקבי ציר דיפלוט איידימה יפלוט

*שבלע

דטריד איידילא ציר ליפלוט

בלע2 עיקר מלח דם בשר ציר ציר

3 Remove bottom before shiur melicha of top

Can always resalt Mutar Assur Assur Mutar

4 Blood in pockets Assur Mutar Mutar

5 Falls into tzir Assur Mutar? Mutar Assur?

6 Bottom after 24 hours Mutar Mutar Assur Assur?

7 Bottom washed early Mutar Assur? Mutar Assurפולטו * כך כבולעו

Shiur 13 – P. 102

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Shiur 13 – P. 102

Example of why bottom piece must stay on rack for shiur of the upper piece according to yeish m’forshim who say that blood of upper piece is absorbed in bottom piece and then Expelled by tzir of bottom piece AND according to R”Y M’Orleans.

Start salting bottom piece

1:00Meat expelling blood

1:10Start salting top piece

1:18Both pieces expelling blood

Bottom piece absorbing blood from top and expelling it.

Top piece expelling blood which is absorbed into bottom piece.Bottom piece expelling tzir AND blood from top piece

1:28Both pieces expelling only tzir.

A B C D E F G

Bottom piece has no more of its own blood. Still has absorbed blood from top piece.

Waiting for Top Piece

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Shiur 13Beware the Double EntendreBeware the Double Entendre פולטו כך כבולעו

KelimTranslation: The way it absorbed (issur blios) is the way it will expel (them)Context: Kashering dishesSequence: First absorbed then expeled

Issur absorbed into walls

Blios removed by same mechanism by which they were absorbed

MelichaTranslation: (Blood) that is absorbed will be expelled (with tzir from the meat)Context: Salting multiple pieces of meat togetherSequence: Absorbed and expelled simultaneously

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Shiur 13 – P. 104 Mechanisms for Blood Flowing Over Meat - Psak

Achronim Rishonim Mechanism

1 MechaberRama (Shach, Chavas Da’as)

Tosefos ליפלוט דטריד בלע ציראיידי לא

2 Mechaber (b’diavad) Rabbosav of the Rashba Salt always absorbed blood even without tzir

3 Rama (Taz) מפרשים יש ציר דיפלוט שבלע מה יפלוטאיידי

4 Everyone (Pri Megadim, Chavas Da’as)

ליפלוט דטריד בלע דםאיידי לא

5 Rama (turn over meat) Yereim (IV”H) Use פוךתן כך only b’diavad כבולו

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Shiur 13 – P. 105

Salted meat a second time without removing original salt or blood

Salting a Second Time

Psak S’Vora

1 Rama Mutar • Second salt does not drive blood back into meat.

2 Rama ((Taz) MBZ) Mutar • Combination of• בלע לא ציר ליפלוט דטריד and איידי• The Rosh holds that salt does not drive blood into meat

• Not דיפלוט because then simply (which is how the Taz holds) איידיwashing would not be enough.

3 Rama ((Taz) Chavas Da’as)

Mutar • All Rishonim hold that salt will not push in blood and pull it out at the same time

Question: Since Rama holds salt drives blood into meat, why can meat be salted a second time before washing off the first salt? Won’t the second salt drive in the blood removed by the first salt?

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Shiur 13 – P. 106


Salting a Second Time after 24 hours

Psak S’Vora

1 Rosh (Taz) Mutar • Salt never drives blood into meat

2 Other Rishonim Assur • Salt will drive blood into meat.

3 Rosh (Chavas Da’as) Assur • Heat of salt should still cook blood back into meat

24 Hours

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Shiur 13 – P. 106


Salting a Second Time Compared to Salting without Hadacha Rishona

69:2 Assur 70:1 Mutar

1 Rama (Shach – 1 )Sifsai Da’as

Dom B’ain Dam Plaita (even after 24 hours)

2 Rama(Shach – 2 )

No tzir is coming out when salt is applied

Tzir is coming out when second salt is applied (not after 24 hours)

3 Rama(Minchas Yaakov)

Lots of blood – No mishrak sharik Minimal blood – mishrak sharik

Salt meat without hadacha rishona

(70:1) Mutar

(69:2) Assur

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Shiur 14 – P. 109

70:1 dealt with salty chicken where fish may or may not have been salted. There it made a difference if the fish had scales or not.

There - 70:1 Here - 70:2

Mechaber: Here, fish is salty and chicken is not. Fish is mutar.

Salt together

Different cases of fish and chicken.

Rama: Blood does not spread upwards. Fish is mutar.

Rama: Salted together after chicken was already salted shiur melicha, fish is mutar.

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Shiur 14

We brought several opinions as to why blood from a top piece does no ossur piece below.

There reasons do not apply to tzir, but tzir is mutar anyway( מוהל לי מה מים לי (מה

These reasons do not apply to treif tzir, AND treif tzir will make other pieces assur.

blood kosher tzir non-kosher tzir

Continuation of previous shiur

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Shiur 14 – P. 110

© 2013 E. Horowitz

Salt together

Fish Chicken

Rashi Assur Mutar

RashbamRosh (Tur)

Assur Assur

Mechaber Assur Klipa Mutar

Rama Assur

Step Stage Who What Why

1 Assur Rashbam Chicken is also assur •Returning fish tzir is treif with chicken blood•Fish tzir will be absorbed by chicken

2 Mutar? Rosh (BY) Not much chicken blood in tzir Ch’n’n only by BBCH (R’ Ephraim)

Tzir can’t treif chicken Can’t assur farther than blood

3 Assur Rosh (BY) Some chicken blood will come out with fish tzir

4 Mutar? Rosh (BY) Blood won’t reenter chicken שריק משרק

5 Assur Rosh (BY) Blood will reenter chicken Fish tzir thins blood

6 Mutar? Beis Yosef Still not enough blood to assur chicken. Why does Tur say Rosh is like Rashbam?

Rosh holds like R’ Ephraim

7 Assur Bach Tur holds enough blood will come out to assur chicken

Chicken blood

Fish tzir containing chicken bloodQuestions1. Why does the Rashbam hold the chicken assur?2. Why does the Tur say the Rosh holds like the Rashbam?

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Shiur 14 – P. 112

Salted meat in a מנוקב שאינו כלי

(Shouldn’t do this) ציר

Klipa above tzir69:18

Fish Salted on top of Chicken

Salt together

Fish on top

70:2

Basic Reason Meat in Tzir Fish over Chicken

1 Shach Blood flows upwards a klipa Assur Klipa Assur Klipa Blood will flow up into fish

2 Minchas Yaakov (Sifsai Da’as)

Can’t be exact Assur Klipa Simply rinse Can precisely find division between chicken and fish

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Shiur 14 – P. 112First salt ONLY chicken

First salt only chicken and not fish

Chicken blood absorbed in fish

Then salt fish

Does absorbed chicken blood come out with fish tzir?

Fish

1 MechaberYalkut YosefKaf HachaimMshb’tzos Zahav

Assur Klipa

2 Rama Mutar Chicken blood will come out with fish tzir

3 Taz Assur 1. Blood makes fish assur (efshar l’schoto assur?)2. Fish blood is thin and cannot pull out chicken blood3. Fish tzir comes out for less than 18 minutes. No more left while fish is still

expelling chicken blood4. Chicken blood gets stuck in fish meat

4 ShachChachmas Adam

Mutar B’hefsed M’rubeh

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Shiur 15 – P. 116

2

1

4

3

6

5

Salted

Both

Treif

Proximity

Either one on top Mechaber Assur klipa

Type

Both lean

Both lean Mechaber Assur klipa

KosherMechaber Just wash

Either one on top

Either one on topBoth lean

Yeish (Ran) Assur klipa

Kosher Both leanTzir from kosher reaches treif

Yeish (Ran) Just wash

Treif Both leanTzir from treif reaches kosher

Rama Assur

Who Kosher Meat

Either one fatty

Treif on bottomTreif Mechaber Assur

kosher

treif

kosher

treif

kosher

treif

kosher tzir

treif

koshertreif

kosher kosher

treif treif

Cases brought by the Mechaber and the Rama

kosher

treif tzir

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Shiur 15 – P. 117

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A B C D E F G

Case Statement of ToseftaKosher Fish Tamei Fish

Current Case Stage of argument

Kosher Fish & Treif Fish both salted

1 Kosher fish salted with tamei fish is mutar*

Salted Salted Mutar a Initial Assumption Mutar

Salted Not Salted b Second interpretation Assur

2 Kosher salted, tamei not salted , kosher is mutar

Salted Not Salted Mutar a Different than case 1 Mutar

b Explanation of case 1 Assur

c Maybe contrast of case 1 Inconclusive

3 Kosher not salted, tamei salted, kosher assur

Not Salted Salted Assur a Implies salted-salted OK Mutar

b Maybe uses this case to parallel case 2, but salted-salted also assur

Inconclusive

Rava says meat is assur, but Tosefta seems to say otherwise.kosher treif

kosher treifkosher treif kosher treif

Mutar Mutar AssurAssur 2b 3a

Part of this argument uses a common Talmudic logical pattern. The Tosefta gives two extremes, each of which leads to a different inference about the middle case.

Chullin 112BKosher and Treif Salted Together

* Argument hinges on clarifying this statement.

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Shiur 15 – P. 118Case 1Both Kosher and Treif Salted

kosher

treif

kosher

treif

Ravan (Mordechai (Bach))Kosher meat absorbs nothing during shiur melicha

Ravyah (Mordechai (Bach))Blood coming out of kosher meat will not stop treif tzir from coming in.

Mechaber holds this way and thus kosher meat is assur a klipa.

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Shiur 15 – P. 118Case 2Only Kosher Salted

kosher

treif

Main questionDoes the heat of the salted meat heat up the treif meat enough to cause the treif meat to give off tzir?

A B C D

Opinion Kosher piece S'vora

1 Gemorah Mutar

2 Rashba (MBZ)Bais Yosef (MBZ)

Mutar • Kosher piece heats up treif piece• Treif piece gives off little bit of tzir• Kosher tzir deflects it

3 Rashba (MBZ) Mutar • Kosher piece does not heat up treif piece• No tzir comes out of treif piece

4 Ran Assur Klipa • Kosher piece heats up treif piece• Treif piece gives off enough tzir to ossur kosher piece

5 Rama (Shach) Mutar in hefsed m’rubeh

6 Rama (RAE) Mutar in small loss

7 Shach, Marshal, Levush, Toras Chatas

Mutar

In a case where kosher tzir reaches treif piece but pieces don’t touch, everyone agrees that kosher piece is mutar.

kosher

treif

kosher tzir

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Shiur 15 – P. 119

Salty milk

According to the first reason of the Rashba• Something salty does heat up something not salty• Salty milk will enter meat and• Salty milk will heat up meat and cause tzir to go back into milk•Both are assur•Different than kosher/treif meat case because

• There, the tzir of the kosher meat repels the treif tzir•Here, nothing repels the tzir of the meat

Case 2Meat in Salty Milk

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Shiur 15 – P. 119Case 3Only Treif is Salted

koshertreif

treif tzir

kosher

treif

Trief meat is hot enough to ossur kosher meat.

Explicit in the Mechaber

Trief tzir is also hot enough to ossur kosher meat,

After shiur melicha, can be maikil in a hefsed m’rubeh and a seudas mitzvah.

Explicit in the RamaShach: Everyone holds this

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Shiur 15 – P. 120

ISSUR HETERHETER

HETER

HETER

This diagram is from Ta’aruvos, Shiur 20.

In the case where the issur is fatty, can we combine all of the heter to get 60x the issur?

Status of Kosher Pieces S’vorah

Rambam, Ramban All pieces assur Issur wont spread evenly

Rashba, Ran, Ra’ah, Rosh, Tur All pieces mutar if, in all, they are 60x issur Issur will spread evenly

Rava said meat was assur. How much of the meat was assur?

Who Case How Much

1 Rov poskim Lean meat Klipa

2 Rov Poskim Fatty meat All assur (up to 60x issur)

3 Rambam Lean meat All assur (up to 60x issur)

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Shiur 15 – P. 120

koshertreif

kosher

treif kosher

treif

koshertreif

kosher

treif kosher

treif

koshertreif

kosher

treif kosher

treif

Lean Meat

Aruch Hashulchan

Both SaltedAssur Klipa

Treif SaltedAssur Klipa

Kosher SaltedSimply Rinse

Side by Side Treif on Top Kosher on Top

RamaNeed 60x in all cases (except bottom row?)

1

2

3

A B C

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Rinse

Assur Klipa

Assur

Rinse Rinse

RamaNeed 60x in all cases (except bottom row?)

Assur Klipa

Shiur 15 – P. 120

koshertreif

kosher

treif kosher

treif

koshertreif

kosher

treif kosher

treif

koshertreif

kosher

treif kosher

treif

At Least One Piece is Fatty

Side by Side Treif on Top Kosher on Top

Assur

AssurAssur Aruch Hashulchan

Both Salted

Treif Salted

Kosher Salted

1

2

3

A B C

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1 Yeish -1 (Mechaber) Assur Blood and salt on surface reabsorbed into meat2 Yeish -2 (Mechaber) Mutar Even after several days3 Mechaber Mutar B'diavad4 Tosefos (Rashba(Tur)) Assur klipa Salt will drive expelled blood back into meat5 Rosh (Tur) Mutar •Blood dried up

•Salt no longer hot6 Everyone (Shach) Mutar • All blood slipped off

• Surface liquid is only mohel• Salt no longer hot

Shiur 16 – P. 124

12 Hours

•After 12 hours tzir is done coming out

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Shiur 16 – P. 124Dam B’ain Rama

• Dam B’ain falls on meat being salted• Salted meat is hot• Meat is assur

Mechaber: “or meat that had been salted and has no blood in it”

Shach: Two explanations of the Ran

1. Toras Chatas• Salted for 18 minutes• Blood gone• Tzir still coming out• Washed• Nikvei plaita closed• Absorbed blood won’t come back out

2. Maharshal, Drisha• Salted for 12 hours• Blood and tzir is gone• Nothing to pull absorbed blood out

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בדעבד'' – מותר ל רשא

הטחיש

הונשארהחהד

החלימ

החלימורעשי

24

hour

s

Case 1 – Meat at various stages touches other meat that is being salted (Stage 3)

Stage 1Not Washed

Stage 2WashedNot Salted

Stage 3Shiur MelichaExpelling דם

Stage 4Expelling ציר

12 h

ours

Stage 5Expelling minimal ציר

Stage 6No longer expelling ציר

כ'' ש מותר

כבולעה פולטו כך

מות This is the simple caseר

of many pieces being salted together discussed in Shiur 13.

It is mutar based on the four opinions discussed there.

If meat touches one other piece –

בדעבד מותרIf meat fell into several pieces –

בהפסד מותרמרובה

'' , ל'' רשא א רמאפילו– אסור

בצלי

) '' ז'' ) ט א רמWash and resalt

פולטו כך כבולעהכ'' איידי: – ש מותר

לא לפלוט דטרידבלע

חטאת ,R’ Yonah ,תורתMaharshal, ShachNikvai plaita will close. Meat is assur.

Other meat (b)Shiur 16

Yeish (Ran) osriml’chatchila – מחבר

Other piece

Our meat(a)

רמ''א

מותר

א'' '' – רמ בהפסד, מותר כ שמרובה

מותר'' - א א'' - רמ רממותר

Yeish 1 - matirin to salt – מחברR Yonah,Rashba (Shach, Taz, Pri Chadash)Rabosav of Rashba (Aruch Hashulchan)

Yeish 2 - matirin in all cases - מחברR’ Tam (Aruch Hashchan, Biur Hagra )

Yeish osrim (Ran) l’chatchila - מחבר

Yeish 1 - matirin to resalt - מחברRabosav of Rashba (Aruch Hashulchan)

Yeish 2 - matirin in all cases - מחברRabosav of Rashba (Shach, Taz, Pri Chadash) to resalt

R’ Tam (Aruch Hashchan , Biur Hagra)

Taz: If washed meat

Rabosav of RashbaNikvai plaita stay open. Meat mutar

R’ Yonah (RAE, MBZ) איידי only by blood, not דטרידtzir – meat assur.Rabosav of Rashba (MBZ). Salting always works. Resalt meat.

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ליצכהחלימ

Less

than

שבוכיורעש

ש בוכ

שלבומכ

Long

er th

an

שבוכיורעש

הטחיש


החלימ


24 h

ours

Case 2 – Meat at various stages falls into ציר in a

מנוקב .כלי

Stage 1Not Washed




12 h

ours



Shiur 16 ציר


'' כ'' ) ש א Tzir is weak. Wash & resalt up to 24 hours (2רמPri Chadash

Sifsai Da’as – Hefsed M’rubeh

: מגדים פרילכבוד מותר

ארחים

: מרבבה דגולבהפסד מותר

מרובה

, מחברשפתי'' ( מא ר

דעת( ל'' רשמותר

:) '' ז'' ) ט א רמאסור

resalt ''ל :רש resalt ''ל :רש

: '' ) '' ז'' ) ט ז ט א רמאסור

א'' רממיד אסור

מרובה – בהפסדwash & resalt

: '' , א'' רמ ל רשאסור

:) '' אסור'' ) מ פ ז ט

) '' מ'' ) פ כ :שOk in great need

, '' , כ'' ש א רמ'' ) '' ( ד'' ש ד ש ז : ט

מיד אסור

: אסור'' ל רשז''בקליפה :ט

resalt in מרובה הפסד

: מיד'' אסור א רמ

: אסור'' ל רשבקליפה

: אסור'' ל רש

'' ( כ'' ש ל ,רש :) אסור'' ז ט

בקליפה

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א'' '' )רמ כ( 2שUp to 24 hr


, מחברשפתי'' ( מא ר

, '' ז( ט דעתמותר'' כ ש

ליצכהחלימ

Less

than

שבוכיורעש

ש בוכ

שלבומכ

Long

er th

an

שבוכיורעש

הטחיש


החלימ


24 h

ours

Stage 1Not Washed




12 h

ours



Shiur 16Case 3 – Meat at various stages falls into ציר in a כלי

מנוקב .שאינו

Bloody ציר


'' כ'' ) ש א דיפלוט (1רמ Wash & salt (up to 24 hours)איידי,) '' ) '' ז ט ל Minchas Yaakov (Pri Megadim)רש

'' כ'' ) ש א '' 2רמ , '' ,) '' א, רע ז ט ז Assurט

'' ( כ'' ש ל ,רש :) אסור'' ז ט

בקליפה

מגדים , פרידעת : חוות

hefsed m’rubeh – not real dam b’ain

מותר

: אסור מגדים פריBut not worse

than stage 1דעת :חוות

Like ''ל רשמרובה בהפסד

See Shiur 11 if meat touched bottom

If meat didn’t touch bottom

דעת :חוותMeat in צירis אסור

* Same as Case 2

*


'' כ'' ) ש א רמ2)Assur

pickled

א'' רממיד אסור


* , '' , כ'' ש א רמ'' ) '' ( ד'' ש ד ש ז : ט

מיד אסור

: אסור'' ל רשז''בקליפה :ט

resalt in מרובה הפסד

: מיד'' אסור א רמ

: אסור'' ל רשבקליפה


*

*

40

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© 2014 E. Horowitz

Shiur 18 – P. 143

ציר

A B C

Case מנוקב כלי לזוב מקום שאין מנוקב כלי מנוקב שאינו כלי

Source Rama – 70:6 Toras Chatas – 7:2 Rama – 69:18

Halacha Wash & Salt Above tzir is mutar All assur

rack

Note that in case B, the rack is considered a מנוקב even כליthough it is sitting in a מנוקב שאינו כלי

Three cases of the Rama as explained by the Shach (40).

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Shiur 19 - Intro

1. Hair (wool)

בשר .3

4. Skull

קרום .5

6. Brain

2. Hide

Regions of interest in sheep head

Krum has many veins

Brain has lots of blood

Skull restricts blood flow

Issues

Krum restricts blood flow

Salting hair

השחיטה .7 בית

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Shiur 19 – P.149

A B C

Split Head Puncture Krum S’vora

1 Taz, Shach Preferred OK

2 Mishb'tzos Zahav (1) Preferred OK Have to make sure hole faces down during salting.

3 Mishb'tzos Zahav (2) Preferred OK Salting through hair doesn’t work fully. MBZ prefers first answer.

4 Tshuvas Bais Yaakov (Pischei T’shuva)

Required No Good With spaces in the head only salted on one side. Pischei T’shuva rejects this.

Preparing the head for salting

A B

Splitting Head Salting on Hair

1 Rashba says

Must split the head OK to salt on the hair

2 Bais Yosef asks

If salt works on hair why split head? Head salted on both sides.

Why do we care if salt works on hair?Head is salted on one side anyway.Rashba holds we can salt one side.

3 Bais Yosef answers

Skull and krum trap blood in brain

One side is b’diavad. This is l’chatchila.

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Shiur 19 – P. 150

Salted foot with hoof attachedA B C D E

Status of Hoof Meat in hoof Rest of foot Position1 Mechaber Kli Menukav Mutar Mutar2 Rama Kli She’aino Menukav Assur Mutar3 Shach Kli She’aino Menukav Assur Mutar Even upright4 Others (Shach) Kli She’aino Menukav Assur Mutar Only on side5 Others (Shach) Kli She’aino Menukav Assur Assur Upright

Salting hooves

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Shiur 19 – P. 150Brains

Stira in the Rama A B C

Remove Brain Split Head Puncture Krum

1 Mechaber 71:1

2 Mechaber 71:3

3 Rama 71:3 B’diavad (implied)

4 Rama 68:4 L'chatchila B’diavad Assur? (implied)

ResolutionsB’diavad in both cases

A B C

Rama 68:4 Rama 71:3

1 Shach Meat not cooked Meat Cooked If not cooked, then split head. If already cooked then it is OK.

2 Minchas Yaakov Split & upside down ok

Punctured and hole down ok

Don’t consider skull to be kli sheaino menukav.

3 Yad Yehudah Brain not separate piece

If head is split, might think that we are salting head on one side and brain on one side

Skull is not kli sheaino menukav

1 2

2

1

2 rows

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Shiur 19 – P. 151Salting with no hole

Why meat is mutar

1 Shach – 1 Sifsai Da’asRan (Sifsai Da’as)

Skull keeps brain blood in

2 Shach – 2Mata Yehonasan

Skull keeps most of brain blood in

3 Rosh (Sifsai Da’as) Krum keeps brain blood in

Salt entire head with no hole• Brain assur• Meat mutar

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Shiur 19 – P. 1521. Bones with marrow need to be salted2. Bone marrow has a small amount of blood3. Bones without marrow do not need to be salted4. Bones do not need to be punctured before salting5. Cooked, unsalted bone is mutar with 60x the marrow

• Then even the marrow is mutar• Since it has so little blood

Marrow

Unsalted bone

Salting bones

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1. From beis hashchita2. http://www.biologyjunction.com/sheep_heart_dissection_lab_repor.htm

Shiur 20 – P. 155

© 2014 E. Horowitz

A B C D EBlood Typically in Cavities

Blood Drawn into Cavities1

Blood in Meat

Blood seeping from meat into heart

1 Rashi Who Rav (R’ Zeira) Braisa2 Term דאתי דם

מעלמאדיליה דם

3 Type הנפש דם איברים דם

4 Law כרת לאו

5 Rif, Rosh

Who Rav (R’ Zeira) Braisa 6 Term דיליה דם מעלמא דאתי דם

7 Type (thin) הנפש דם איברים דם (thick) איברים דם8 Law כרת לאו לאו

Sheep Heart2

7B

3C

3D, 7D

7E

Types of blood in the heart

Juggler vein

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Shiur 20 – P. 155General opinions about eating the heart

A B C

1 Darchei Moshe Custom not to cook heart May cook without opening

2 Darchei Moshe Many people do cook hearts

3 Yeish (Rama) Do not cook

4 Rashal (Taz) Maikil

5 Pri Megadim, Chavas Da’as Minhag to cook

6 Gemorah (Horaios 13B) Not advisable Bad for memory

7 Arizal (Kaf Hachaim) Not advisable Connects soul to animalLeads to forgetfulness and simplicity

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Shiur 20 – P. 156Cooking heart full of blood

Rashi, Rambam•Case: Cooked heart with blood•Heart is smooth, wont absorb blood

•According to Pesachim•Can empty heart after cooking

R’ Tam, Bais Yosef •Case: Roasted heart with blood• Heart does absorb

• Pesachim is not psak•Can empty heart after cooking•Blood that was not absorbed now comes out•Blood that was absorbed came out during roasting

Gemorah•Cooked heart with blood•Can empty heart after cooking (Chullin 109B)• Heart is smooth. Does not absorb during cooking. (Pesachim 74B)

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Shiur 20 – P. 156Heart full of blood - Mechaber

Salting Roasting Cooking

Mechaber Empty after salting Empty after roasting Need 60 to mevatel

Sometimes the Mechaber allows us to drain the blood of the heart after the fact.

Shach asks that the heart blood is dom b’ain and should be assur.

Why does the blood in the heart which is dom b’ain not a problem? Sifsai Da’as (3)

A B C

S’vora Kula Chumra

1 Toras Chatas Small amount of dom b’ain absorbed can be removed like dom plaita.

Even external source of dom b’ain can be removed.

Blood is real dom b’ain and will assur other meat.

2 Maharai Blood dries up and is like dom plaita. Blood is like dom plaita and will not assur other meat.

External dom b’ain will assur heart.

3 Ramban Heart is smooth. Does not absorb. External blood okWill not assur other meat

Does not mention a chumra

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Shiur 20 – P. 157

© 2014 E. Horowitz

Heart full of blood - Mechaber

How much other food is needed to mevatel the heart?

Case ANot Salted

Case BSalted Notes

1 Sharai Dura 60x chambers (b) No blood in walls

2 Tur (Maharshal(Taz)) 60x heart (a) 60x chambers (b) (implied) Agrees with Sharai Dura

3 Tur (Rama, Shach) 60x heart (a) Argues with Sharai Dura

4 Taz, Maharil 60x heart (a)

5 Mechaber 60x heart (a)

6 Mechaber (Shach) 60x heart (a) 60x chambers (b)

7 Minchas Yaakov 60x heart (a) Ch’n’n

8 Rama Heart assur Heart assur Blood dries inside (Shach)

Case B: • Not opened • Salted • Blood in chambers• Blood in walls?• Cooked

Case A: • Not opened • Not Salted• Blood in chambers• Blood in walls• Cooked

a. Entire Heart

b. Chambers

c. Walls

Shach asks why Tur needs 60x heart if salted. No blood in walls, should need only 60x chambers.

Answer Shach notes

1 Smak (IVH) Like salting meat on one side. Some blood remains. Heart like large piece of meat. Is salted on both sides.

2 Tur (Shach) Can’t estimate chambers. Mechaber holds we can measure chambers.

3 Mechaber (Shach) Heart has not been salted If salted, only need 60x chambers.

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Shiur 20 – P. 159Blood davuk to heartHeart davuk to Meat

Case ABlood davuk to heartHeart davuk to meatSalted togetherCooked together

Case BBlood davuk to heartHeart touching meatSalted TogetherCooked together

Meat davuk to heart

heart

blood

Case A Case B

1 Minchas Yaakov Need heart walls & meat = 60x cavities Need 60x heart. Blood davuk to heart

2 Sifsai Da’as Like Minchas Yaakov in hefsed m’rubeh

3 Rama (Shach)Halacha

Remove klipa from meat Remove klipa from meat

4 Rama (Minchas Yaakov) Remove klipa from meat Don’t need to remove klipa

5 RAE, Dagul Mair’vava Count heart as klipa? Count heart as klipa?

6 Yad Ephraim Blood does not go into heart, just meat. Blood does not go into heart, just meat.

Meat touching heart

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Documents

68 בס '' ד Shiur 11 – P. 86 © 2013 E. Horowitz V 3 Salting meat in a solid kli Status of the meat Two Questions 1.How much of the meat is assur? 2.How