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2 her and she had an emergency C-section
3 right there in the ER. she didn't feel
4 anything. She was out of it.
5 These are the types of patients
6 that we need to save. I debriefed with
7 the ER director after this because I was
8 concerned that Hatzalah had taken it
9 into their own responsibility to divert
10 because I was waiting in the labor room
11 for this patient. I had my anesthesia.
12 I had everything ready and the ER DOCTOR
13 felt that Hatzalah had made the correct
14 decision. So there's a lot here. Yes,
15 it's true: Women need modesty and some
16 women in the audience may know that I
17 lecture about modesty. I don't know how
18 many women in here know about that,
19 especially modesty between husband and
20 wife, in laborer and delivery. I'm no
21 stranger to that, but we have to
22 remember what our goal is. Our goal is
23 that every mother should live healthy
24 and take care of a healthy baby.
25 (Whereupon, applause was given.)
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2 MR. DERING: You talked about a
3 patient and it was the same patient.
4 MS. DVORKES: Yes, I started and
5 she finished.
6 DR. MANN: I just told her the
7 story in the car. I have plenty more
8 stories, plenty.
9 MR. DERING: Okay. Sure. So
10 let me ask you about stories. Of either
11 of you, have there ever been any
12 assertions against you that you provided
13 an inappropriate or inadequate care?
14 MR. REISNER: Objection.
15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Whoa.
16 MS. DVORKES: I don't even
17 understand.
18 DR. MANN: Where? In the
19 hospital?
20 MR. REISNER: Yeah. We're just
21 kind of throwing bombs here. With
22 regard to that one case. That's because
23 the ambulance didn't get there.
24 MS. DVORKES: No, because I
25 asked her to call the Hatzalah and she
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2 said, "no." If you want to know the
3 truth. She said, "no." She was
4 bleeding. She said no. There's no
5 politics when it comes to saving a life.
6 MR. DERING: Please, but do you
7 know was another ambulance involved?
8 MS. DVORKES: Yes, the big one.
9 MR. DERING: Okay. So they did
10 call the ambulance?
11 MS. DVORKES: It was a 15-minute
12 drive and we were two blocks away from
13 Flatbush.
14 MR. DERING: So another
15 ambulance was called?
16 MS. DVORKES: Yes, and I asked
17 her to call Hatzalah and she said, "no."
18 MR. DERING: And at the time --
19 MS. DVORKES: And I said, "you
20 don't want to hear me. She said, "I'm
21 not supposed to," but that's politics.
22 MR. DERING: And at the time,
23 Ezras Nashim didn't have an ambulance
24 that they would transport, right?
25 MS. DVORKES: No, but they
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2 wouldn't call Hatzalah even to save a
3 life.
4 MR. DERING: So you had
5 indicated one the great things about
6 Hatzalah is that they have muscles. Do
7 you think that they should have allowed
8 women to be EMTs?
9 MS. DVORKES: Within certain
10 parameters, I have no problem. I have
11 no problem listening to that, within the
12 parameter of the Jewish law and modesty.
13 I also know they have two men sleeping
14 in the ambulance on 16th Avenue for
15 night calls. I think they're only one
16 ambulance, but they only need one
17 because there's no traffic, but you
18 can't have a woman sleeping there, so
19 how is she going to get into the
20 ambulance?
21 MR. DERING: Thank you.
22 MS. DVORKES: I mean, I
23 understand the issues involved, but I
24 have no problem with it.
25 MR. DERING: Thank you.
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2 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Any
3 questions?
4 MR. REISNER: No, thank you.
5 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Thank
6 you, Ladies. Thank you very, very much
7 for your time. Do we have further
8 witnesses?
9 MR. REISNER: I will defer to
10 your list, Hearing Officer.
11 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN:
12 According to my list the next person is
13 Scott Orlanski.
14 (Whereupon, Mr. Orlanski
15 approached the microphone.)
16 MR. ORLANSKI: Good evening,
17 everybody. Well, my notes said, "good
18 evening," but now we are good night. My
19 name is Scott Orlanski and I represent
20 the United New York Ambulance Network,
21 effectually known as UNYAN. UNYAN
22 throughout the state represents 30
23 companies and 1,000 ambulances. In the
24 downstate regions, we represent 12
25 companies and over 650 ambulances. 650
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2 ambulances that can be brought to
3 respond in Borough Park at any time.
4 I'm here this evening to speak
5 in opposition of the application made by
6 Ezras Nashim. Let me be clear: Having
7 read through the entire application and
8 being as familiar with EMS as I am,
9 there is absolutely no need demonstrated
10 for a new certificate to be issued. In
11 fact, it is our position that granting
12 the Certificate of Need would be
13 harmful. The idea is EMS's provide
14 quality patient care in a timely manner.
15 It would be clinically wrong to grant
16 the Certificate of Need to provide a
17 lower level of care, BLS, than an ALS
18 already available in the area by UNYAN
19 members as well as existing resources in
20 the community.
21 The applicant also claims to
22 provide slower response times than
23 provided by our members and existing
24 resources in the community and those
25 times are not the standard of care that
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2 the public is looking for. The essence
3 of the application is want. And to
4 quote the application on page 12 or 13,
5 depending on which one you're reading,
6 it is a "wish." Policy Statement 06-06
7 is very clear about what a public need
8 is: A lack of care not currently
9 correctible through a reallocation of
10 resources. Our 650 ambulances alone in
11 conjunction with the fire department,
12 voluntary hospitals and the volunteer
13 agencies clearly demonstrates that there
14 is no lack of care.
15 If the members of the public or
16 the Council do not like or disagree with
17 Policy Statement 06-06, then I suggest
18 you legislate change. However, until
19 such time as 06-06 is amended, revised,
20 or repealed, that is the guiding
21 document that we are obligated to
22 follow. Muddying the waters as the
23 applicant has done regarding religion
24 and statements of want is problematic.
25 Advertisements are ongoing to
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2 operate in many areas of New York State,
3 including Flatbush, Rockland, and the
4 Five Towns in Nassau County show that
5 the application is filled with
6 statements of want and not need. The
7 only matter that can be considered by
8 the Council are the ones that are
9 directed by Policy Statement 06-06.
10 Those are: Geography, population, level
11 of care, those existing and available,
12 quality, reliability and response
13 patterns of existing services, types of
14 service, emergency or non-emergency,
15 special needs, such as air, industrial
16 or facility, service effectiveness, cost
17 and operation and other local factors,
18 not feelings. We are not here to
19 discuss feelings.
20 In their application, the
21 applicant does not allege any
22 deficiencies, much less prove any
23 deficiencies in the current EMS system.
24 The application is a 180-page
25 beautifully fundraising document that
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2 speaks to issues of wants, desires,
3 wishes and preferences. It is not the
4 purview of the Council to deal with the
5 aforementioned wants, preferences,
6 desires, or wishes, nor is it ours to
7 deal with religious dogma. That is best
8 left to the religious leaders and not
9 for this Council. We are here to
10 discuss and ultimately to vote a need
11 and clearly no need exists. Thank you
12 for your time.
13 (Whereupon, applause was given.)
14 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN:
15 Counsel, Committee, any questions?
16 Thank you, Mr. Orlanski.
17 Who do we have? Rabbi Bernard
18 Weinberger? Mayer Freier? Libby
19 Mendlovics? And maybe last, but not
20 least, Shavy Grossberg? Ms. Grossberg?
21 MS. GROSSBERG: Yes.
22 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Please
23 come on down.
24 (Whereupon, Ms. Grossberg
25 approached the microphone.)
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2 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: I have
3 news for you. You're not last.
4 MS. GROSSBERG: Thank you.
5 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN:
6 Ms. Grossberg, thank you for your
7 patience and thank you for being with
8 us.
9 MS. GROSSBERG: Sure, thank you
10 very much. Thank you, Hearing Officer
11 and the Ambulance Committee. Before I
12 begin, I just want to mention, it's very
13 interesting what Mr. Freier said, about
14 a New Square, this big rabbi that had
15 asked the women to start their own
16 division. I actually was in New square
17 when I had pre-eclampsia last year when
18 I had my baby. And I was there and I
19 called Hatzalah and the way it works is,
20 they don't have their own division.
21 It's that the Hatzalah member comes.
22 You get into the Hatzalah ambulance.
23 They actually make a stop at one of the
24 women's homes and then she comes into
25 the back of the Hatzalah van and I was
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2 more than happy when she sat there
3 holding my hands the whole time. So I
4 just wanted to clarify that.
5 So I've been teaching for over
6 20 years. The first thing I do when I
7 go into a classroom is, I give out my
8 phone number and I tell all my students
9 that if you ever feel alone and you ever
10 feel you have no one you can turn to,
11 you can always call me. Over the years,
12 I had many different students come and
13 call me with different problems,
14 different issues that they don't want to
15 discuss with someone else. That ended
16 up morphing into me mentoring teens.
17 I've had several people live in my
18 homes, in my house, for extended periods
19 of time, whether it was a student of
20 mine or word got out.
21 You know, I recently had a woman
22 who was thrown out of the home and she
23 stayed in my home for several months, so
24 what ended up happening was, with all of
25 this going on, I sort of like became the
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2 address for people to go to, to call
3 when they felt there was an issue in the
4 community. So, over the past few
5 years -- I'm very lucky. I've been very
6 instrumental in having many, many
7 meetings with very important people in
8 the Borough Park community and
9 implementing new initiatives, and
10 amongst them were in our education
11 system and many meetings with different
12 principals and we discussed new ideas
13 and new initiatives, which we then
14 implemented.
15 I was also a very big advocate
16 for early detection and early awareness
17 and in the summer months, I just felt
18 that mothers just had a little more time
19 on their hands and many of us go upstate
20 to the Catskills, so we did have groups
21 of women actually travel to different
22 (indiscernible) in the Catskills and
23 speaking about this in a more relaxed
24 fashion.
25 I am also involved in the
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2 special needs community. What ended up
3 happening was, there were a lot of women
4 who approached me when a child was born
5 and they didn't know where to turn. It
6 just morphed into that. I actually
7 started a hotline that is worldwide.
8 Anybody from all over the world that has
9 a special need child can call this
10 hotline and they can discuss it -- we
11 can discuss it amongst ourselves and we
12 have educators coming on. It's
13 something very special and something
14 very, very helpful in the special needs
15 community.
16 One of most the important things
17 that I started was something called the
18 Food Pantry. I don't think anybody here
19 has ever heard of it; that is because we
20 keep it extremely, extremely discreet,
21 but I did have women who would ring my
22 bell and tell me that they couldn't feed
23 their familiars and I couldn't believe
24 it. This is going back like 10 years
25 ago. And I said, how could that be?
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2 That there's food stamps and someone --
3 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN:
4 Ms. Grossberg, I apologize. Could I ask
5 you to try to stay relevant to -- I'm
6 sure you do many good works and I don't
7 mean to diminish it, but could you focus
8 on what we're here for tonight and speak
9 on the application?
10 MS. GROSSBERG: Yes, my
11 apologies.
12 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Thank
13 you.
14 MS. GROSSBERG: What I was
15 trying to say was (indiscernible) when
16 there is a void or when there is a need
17 in the community, most likely, I will
18 have heard of it. I have people call me
19 constantly: "We need to do something."
20 Never, not even once, has anyone ever
21 approached me that they felt there was a
22 need for a women's emergency service, so
23 that's one point that I wanted to make.
24 The second point that I wanted
25 to make is that, one of the issues that
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2 came to my door was a woman from Canada
3 who reached out to me, her name was
4 Ms. Sveltzer (phonetic). She had
5 written a book on modesty and she had
6 the signatures of many big rabbis and
7 she wanted me to bring it to Borough
8 Park, which I did. And I lectured
9 extensively on it, on different things,
10 such as, not only modesty in looks, but
11 also not speaking loud in public and,
12 you know, different -- really, it was on
13 many different things.
14 I spoke at extensively in
15 different schools and answered women, so
16 when it comes to modesty, again, I will
17 have people call me and ask me questions
18 and never, again, not even once has
19 anyone ever said, I feel like it's a
20 breach of modesty when Hatzalah member
21 comes to my door. So I just wanted to
22 finish on that.
23 I'm sorry. I know I said I was
24 finished, but I wanted to mention one
25 more thing, please.
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2 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Please,
3 go ahead.
4 MS. GROSSBERG: I did have to
5 call a Hatzalah member once. I have
6 eight children and one of my pregnancies
7 -- it's like the doctor said, you know?
8 It's just an uncomfortable position and
9 he was so caring and so nice that when
10 my son got engaged and we were shopping
11 around for a diamond, I actually told my
12 husband, I believe that the Hatzalah
13 member who helped us deals in diamonds
14 and he had such integrity in helping me
15 I can't imagine a better person to sell
16 us a diamond. I had no doubt that he's
17 extremely truthful and in his integrity.
18 MR. REISNER: No questions. It
19 has come to my attention that we do have
20 one other witness. I would defer to the
21 good doctor though. He's been waiting
22 so patiently. We could bring her after.
23 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Okay.
24 Who did I miss?
25 MR. REISNER: Blima Halpert.
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2 Can we add her?
3 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Yup,
4 the name is there. I apologize. That's
5 my overlooking. Ms. Halpert, are you
6 here? Doctor, do you mind?
7 Ms. Halpert, come down. Thank you and I
8 apologize.
9 MS. HALPERT: My name is Blima
10 Halpert. I'm your typical Borough Park
11 Jewish woman. By "typical," I mean I
12 was Borough Park. I went to school in
13 Borough Park. I got married in Borough
14 Park and I married a man incidentally
15 who also lives in Borough Park and I
16 have 10 children, Thank God. So I
17 pretty much feel comfortable coming up
18 here representing the people because I
19 know the mindset of our women.
20 Now, I had a nice speech
21 prepared and then I got sidetracked
22 because I was hearing so much other
23 information from 5 o'clock until now
24 that I just started scribbling so many
25 things and I just was like, do I give my
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2 speech? Do I respond to what I heard?
3 I think I'm just going to respond to two
4 things, because people made such good
5 points. I'm not a good speaker and if I
6 repeat it or I don't say it as well,
7 it's not going to kind of ruin it for
8 the other people.
9 Now, point number one, when
10 women call Hatzalah, it's in situations
11 of emergencies. Ezras Nashim keeps on
12 talking about calling and feeling. It
13 just kind of made me wonder why we're
14 here. We're talking about emergency
15 situations and the word "trauma" being
16 thrown around like that, I'm mean, I'm
17 traumatized, seriously, and for most of
18 you's who don't follow the Jewish
19 religion and you don't know us well, I
20 could really sell you the Brooklyn
21 Bridge. I could tell you anything and
22 you'll almost believe me. And the
23 reason I'm saying that is because not
24 one person here made this point the
25 entire time. The entire basis, the
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2 claim of Ezras Nashim is not because
3 women need better care. It's because
4 women need people to feel their
5 feelings. Why? Because modesty is so
6 important.
7 Let me tell you how marriages
8 work in our community, okay? Or let me
9 go back now to the woman that's
10 traumatized. A woman that's traumatized
11 when she gives birth is married, has
12 relations with her husband, and she's
13 pretty comfortable with a man in her
14 life. And yet, in a situation of an
15 emergency, when she might not make it or
16 her child might not make it, she is
17 traumatized by a modest issue.
18 Let me tell you how kids get
19 married in my community. You might not
20 know it. You might get traumatized.
21 Our children go to separate schools.
22 Our daughters do not talk to men, right?
23 That's why women get traumatized when a
24 man sees them. Our daughters never play
25 with boys. They reach a young age and
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2 they also don't watch -- as someone
3 said -- they don't have iPhones. They
4 don't look at TV. They don't know what
5 a boy or a man looks like. They become
6 18 and the mother pulls them into a room
7 and they say, "Honey, I love you.
8 Marriage is a great thing. We have a
9 marriage for you." Someone suggested a
10 boy for you. Do you want to meet him?
11 And the girl says, "yes." And she talks
12 to him for an hour and he looks sweet.
13 If they're not that Hasidic,
14 they might meet again. And if they're
15 not that Hasidic, they might meet even
16 yet again and then they're engaged and
17 they never talked to each other the
18 entire engagement and then they get
19 married. I have yet to hear of one
20 bride be traumatized by marriage. She
21 never saw a boy in her life. She never
22 spoke to a boy in her life. She never
23 watched TV. She doesn't even know this
24 is traumatizing and you know what? They
25 come to their week after the party and
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2 they're smiling. All the girls are
3 smiling they're happy and they're on the
4 clouds. They are so happy. This woman,
5 when she has a baby, does not get
6 traumatized when a man sees her, not if
7 she didn't get traumatized the night of
8 her wedding.
9 And I will ask Hatzalah members
10 here how many times they have calls to
11 women on the night of their wedding.
12 Please tell me. And you're going to
13 convince me that these women, when they
14 have their children are traumatized,
15 really? You know what trauma means?
16 Trauma means hemorrhaging after nine
17 months of pregnancy and when you say
18 nine months of pregnancy, it means
19 nausea, varicose veins, weight gain,
20 tiredness, everything that goes on, the
21 whole package and then when she's about
22 to lose it, she's not traumatized?
23 That's trauma, and when Hatzalah comes
24 and delivers that baby or transports
25 her, they are so grateful. What a
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2 distortion of reality. I have heard it
3 tonight. It's appalling. I have
4 nothing more to say.
5 (Whereupon, applause was given.)
6 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: I want
7 to say thank you. I'm going to ask for
8 us to calm down, quiet down. Thank you
9 again for everyone. Doctor, I think
10 you're going to hold us up in the best
11 possible way.
12 MS. HALPERT: Excuse me. Excuse
13 me.
14 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Yes,
15 please.
16 MS. HALPERT: There are two
17 women from the other side that are
18 harassing me. They just told me that
19 I'm a disgrace.
20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I wasn't
21 harassing you. That's my opinion.
22 MR. REISNER: Order. Order.
23 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Ladies,
24 I'm going to ask that -- if you would
25 like to have a private discussion at
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2 another point. Right now, we're at a
3 public hearing. And we want to hear
4 this. Again, I understand the
5 sensitivity of the issue. I understand
6 the polarization that may happen and the
7 passion that's present, but again, I
8 think respect is paramount; that's been
9 here, and I would like it to remain
10 while we finish up here this evening.
11 Doctor, if you could just
12 announce yourself and spell your name
13 for the record?
14 DR. KAUFMAN: Yes, my name is
15 Brad Kaufman, K-A-U-F-M-A-N. I don't
16 think I'm related to Rabbi Kaufman, but
17 maybe. I'm from the Fire Department,
18 which is a proud supporter of Ezras
19 Nashim and obviously, we work extremely
20 close with Hatzalah every single day. I
21 am the first deputy medical director for
22 the Fire Department and I am also in
23 that role for the medical director for
24 the 911 Emergency Medical dispatch
25 system. I just was going to make one
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2 point, which is directly related to
3 policy 06-06 and the consideration of
4 need in reviewing the papers from
5 counsel for Hatzalah. I did not see the
6 reporting of the number of times or the
7 percentage of times when Hatzalah is on
8 the scene and/or is called and requires
9 to request resources from 911, because
10 they have an additional need or require
11 additional resources. I think that
12 would be an important point for
13 consideration when we're taking need
14 into account. Thank you.
15 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN:
16 Questions?
17 MR. REISNER: I would only
18 submit that it's Ezras Nashim's
19 application, not Hatzalah's application.
20 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: That's
21 absolutely the case. Any questions from
22 the Committee? Doctor, thank you very,
23 very much. Are there any other
24 witnesses that we have? We're precluded
25 from inviting people who would like to
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2 come join us. We are not precluded from
3 coming to an end. I will tell you the
4 following. Again, I mentioned this a
5 couple of times:
6 I am deeply thankful for the
7 passion and even though the passion may
8 be uncomfortable, but it is done from
9 spirit. It is done from heart. It's
10 done from truth and we may have
11 different truths. We may see it
12 differently. I don't know how I see it.
13 It's complicated. I think I may have
14 invoked Solomonic decision making and
15 the only saving grace that I have is,
16 whatever my recommendation is, these
17 good people get to decide ultimately, so
18 I am not making a final determination.
19 I'm the conduit. I am
20 privileged to have been here tonight. I
21 am thankful. It's difficult. Again,
22 we're bring it back. Need versus want.
23 Is it legally okay to have all male? Is
24 it optimal? Is that something that's
25 cognizable under what we have over here.
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2 We have a very specific process detailed
3 by New York State and in both the law
4 and the regulations and the ultimate
5 question comes down to what becomes need
6 and when the committee will get my
7 report, Yay or Nay. I'm sure there will
8 be disagreement and there will be people
9 who like it and people who don't like
10 it, and there will be people in the
11 community who like it and don't like it
12 and it is what it is.
13 I will tell you that you will
14 get fairness from me. I know the vast
15 majority of members of the Ambulance
16 Committee and you will get fairness from
17 them. They will call it as they see it,
18 fairly, without prejudice and I
19 certainly wish the entire community,
20 again, Chevra Hatzalah has a wonderful
21 reputation of timeliness. The level of
22 inclusivity of women is not mine to
23 judge, but it seems that is a reason why
24 we have an application here before us.
25 How does that play out? I don't
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1 REMSCO HEARING - EZRAS NASHIM
2 know. I have to do my homework. I have
3 to scratch my head a lot and think, but
4 I want to say thank you as I go and deal
5 with the four quarters of the
6 application and the four quarters of
7 what the laws and regulations are
8 saying. I'm going to ask Marie to give
9 us a sense of what the timeframe is from
10 going forward, because Marie is going to
11 tell us what the timeframe is for the
12 Ambulance Committee to meet and for me
13 and my deadline in getting a decision.
14 MS. DIGLIO: The Hearing Officer
15 will be receiving a copy of the
16 transcript as soon as poor Daniel can
17 put it together.
18 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: God
19 bless you, Daniel.
20 MS. DIGLIO: We're going to ask
21 him to do it as quickly as he can and
22 the transcript will be sent to the
23 Hearing Officer and to members of the
24 Ambulance Committee and the Regional
25 Council. Hearing officer will use the
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1 REMSCO HEARING - EZRAS NASHIM
2 transcript and all the other information
3 that he's got ahead of time to put
4 together his recommendation. That
5 recommendation will then go on
6 November 19th to our Ambulance Committee
7 and they will consider that information
8 and make their recommendation to the
9 Regional EMS Council. It is the
10 Regional EMS Council that will finally
11 decide if need has been identified.
12 That decision will then be sent
13 to the State Emergency Medical Services
14 Council to have their final decision,
15 and at that point, either side, whoever
16 is a winner or a loser can appeal it.
17 So this may go on for a little while
18 longer. Any questions? Well, thank
19 you, everybody, for coming tonight.
20 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Please
21 get home safe.
22 Time noted: 9:20 p.m.
23
24
25
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1
2 C E R T I F I C A T E
3
4 I, DANIEL A. JOSEPH, a Notary Public
5 within and for the State of New York, do hereby
6 certify:
7 That the witness(es) whose testimony is
8 hereinbefore set forth was duly sworn by me,
9 and the foregoing transcript is a true record
10 of the testimony given by such witness(es).
11 I further certify that I am not related
12 to any of the parties to this action by blood
13 or marriage, and that I am in no way interested
14 in the outcome of this matter.
15
16
17 ________________________
18 DANIEL A. JOSEPH
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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