Page 201 October 30, 2019 1 REMSCO HEARING - EZRAS ......2018/02/03 · Page 201 October 30, 2019 800-678-0166 DEITZ Court Reporting... A Lexitas Company 1 REMSCO HEARING - EZRAS

Page 201October 30, 2019

800-678-0166DEITZ Court Reporting... A Lexitas Company

1 REMSCO HEARING - EZRAS NASHIM

2 her and she had an emergency C-section

3 right there in the ER. she didn't feel

4 anything. She was out of it.

5 These are the types of patients

6 that we need to save. I debriefed with

7 the ER director after this because I was

8 concerned that Hatzalah had taken it

9 into their own responsibility to divert

10 because I was waiting in the labor room

11 for this patient. I had my anesthesia.

12 I had everything ready and the ER DOCTOR

13 felt that Hatzalah had made the correct

14 decision. So there's a lot here. Yes,

15 it's true: Women need modesty and some

16 women in the audience may know that I

17 lecture about modesty. I don't know how

18 many women in here know about that,

19 especially modesty between husband and

20 wife, in laborer and delivery. I'm no

21 stranger to that, but we have to

22 remember what our goal is. Our goal is

23 that every mother should live healthy

24 and take care of a healthy baby.

25 (Whereupon, applause was given.)




2 MR. DERING: You talked about a

3 patient and it was the same patient.

4 MS. DVORKES: Yes, I started and

5 she finished.

6 DR. MANN: I just told her the

7 story in the car. I have plenty more

8 stories, plenty.

9 MR. DERING: Okay. Sure. So

10 let me ask you about stories. Of either

11 of you, have there ever been any

12 assertions against you that you provided

13 an inappropriate or inadequate care?

14 MR. REISNER: Objection.

15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Whoa.

16 MS. DVORKES: I don't even

17 understand.

18 DR. MANN: Where? In the

19 hospital?

20 MR. REISNER: Yeah. We're just

21 kind of throwing bombs here. With

22 regard to that one case. That's because

23 the ambulance didn't get there.

24 MS. DVORKES: No, because I

25 asked her to call the Hatzalah and she




2 said, "no." If you want to know the

3 truth. She said, "no." She was

4 bleeding. She said no. There's no

5 politics when it comes to saving a life.

6 MR. DERING: Please, but do you

7 know was another ambulance involved?

8 MS. DVORKES: Yes, the big one.

9 MR. DERING: Okay. So they did

10 call the ambulance?

11 MS. DVORKES: It was a 15-minute

12 drive and we were two blocks away from

13 Flatbush.

14 MR. DERING: So another

15 ambulance was called?

16 MS. DVORKES: Yes, and I asked

17 her to call Hatzalah and she said, "no."

18 MR. DERING: And at the time --

19 MS. DVORKES: And I said, "you

20 don't want to hear me. She said, "I'm

21 not supposed to," but that's politics.

22 MR. DERING: And at the time,

23 Ezras Nashim didn't have an ambulance

24 that they would transport, right?

25 MS. DVORKES: No, but they




2 wouldn't call Hatzalah even to save a

3 life.

4 MR. DERING: So you had

5 indicated one the great things about

6 Hatzalah is that they have muscles. Do

7 you think that they should have allowed

8 women to be EMTs?

9 MS. DVORKES: Within certain

10 parameters, I have no problem. I have

11 no problem listening to that, within the

12 parameter of the Jewish law and modesty.

13 I also know they have two men sleeping

14 in the ambulance on 16th Avenue for

15 night calls. I think they're only one

16 ambulance, but they only need one

17 because there's no traffic, but you

18 can't have a woman sleeping there, so

19 how is she going to get into the

20 ambulance?

21 MR. DERING: Thank you.

22 MS. DVORKES: I mean, I

23 understand the issues involved, but I

24 have no problem with it.

25 MR. DERING: Thank you.




2 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Any

3 questions?

4 MR. REISNER: No, thank you.

5 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Thank

6 you, Ladies. Thank you very, very much

7 for your time. Do we have further

8 witnesses?

9 MR. REISNER: I will defer to

10 your list, Hearing Officer.

11 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN:

12 According to my list the next person is

13 Scott Orlanski.

14 (Whereupon, Mr. Orlanski

15 approached the microphone.)

16 MR. ORLANSKI: Good evening,

17 everybody. Well, my notes said, "good

18 evening," but now we are good night. My

19 name is Scott Orlanski and I represent

20 the United New York Ambulance Network,

21 effectually known as UNYAN. UNYAN

22 throughout the state represents 30

23 companies and 1,000 ambulances. In the

24 downstate regions, we represent 12

25 companies and over 650 ambulances. 650




2 ambulances that can be brought to

3 respond in Borough Park at any time.

4 I'm here this evening to speak

5 in opposition of the application made by

6 Ezras Nashim. Let me be clear: Having

7 read through the entire application and

8 being as familiar with EMS as I am,

9 there is absolutely no need demonstrated

10 for a new certificate to be issued. In

11 fact, it is our position that granting

12 the Certificate of Need would be

13 harmful. The idea is EMS's provide

14 quality patient care in a timely manner.

15 It would be clinically wrong to grant

16 the Certificate of Need to provide a

17 lower level of care, BLS, than an ALS

18 already available in the area by UNYAN

19 members as well as existing resources in

20 the community.

21 The applicant also claims to

22 provide slower response times than

23 provided by our members and existing

24 resources in the community and those

25 times are not the standard of care that




2 the public is looking for. The essence

3 of the application is want. And to

4 quote the application on page 12 or 13,

5 depending on which one you're reading,

6 it is a "wish." Policy Statement 06-06

7 is very clear about what a public need

8 is: A lack of care not currently

9 correctible through a reallocation of

10 resources. Our 650 ambulances alone in

11 conjunction with the fire department,

12 voluntary hospitals and the volunteer

13 agencies clearly demonstrates that there

14 is no lack of care.

15 If the members of the public or

16 the Council do not like or disagree with

17 Policy Statement 06-06, then I suggest

18 you legislate change. However, until

19 such time as 06-06 is amended, revised,

20 or repealed, that is the guiding

21 document that we are obligated to

22 follow. Muddying the waters as the

23 applicant has done regarding religion

24 and statements of want is problematic.

25 Advertisements are ongoing to




2 operate in many areas of New York State,

3 including Flatbush, Rockland, and the

4 Five Towns in Nassau County show that

5 the application is filled with

6 statements of want and not need. The

7 only matter that can be considered by

8 the Council are the ones that are

9 directed by Policy Statement 06-06.

10 Those are: Geography, population, level

11 of care, those existing and available,

12 quality, reliability and response

13 patterns of existing services, types of

14 service, emergency or non-emergency,

15 special needs, such as air, industrial

16 or facility, service effectiveness, cost

17 and operation and other local factors,

18 not feelings. We are not here to

19 discuss feelings.

20 In their application, the

21 applicant does not allege any

22 deficiencies, much less prove any

23 deficiencies in the current EMS system.

24 The application is a 180-page

25 beautifully fundraising document that




2 speaks to issues of wants, desires,

3 wishes and preferences. It is not the

4 purview of the Council to deal with the

5 aforementioned wants, preferences,

6 desires, or wishes, nor is it ours to

7 deal with religious dogma. That is best

8 left to the religious leaders and not

9 for this Council. We are here to

10 discuss and ultimately to vote a need

11 and clearly no need exists. Thank you

12 for your time.



15 Counsel, Committee, any questions?

16 Thank you, Mr. Orlanski.

17 Who do we have? Rabbi Bernard

18 Weinberger? Mayer Freier? Libby

19 Mendlovics? And maybe last, but not

20 least, Shavy Grossberg? Ms. Grossberg?

21 MS. GROSSBERG: Yes.

22 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Please

23 come on down.

24 (Whereupon, Ms. Grossberg

25 approached the microphone.)




2 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: I have

3 news for you. You're not last.

4 MS. GROSSBERG: Thank you.


6 Ms. Grossberg, thank you for your

7 patience and thank you for being with

8 us.

9 MS. GROSSBERG: Sure, thank you

10 very much. Thank you, Hearing Officer

11 and the Ambulance Committee. Before I

12 begin, I just want to mention, it's very

13 interesting what Mr. Freier said, about

14 a New Square, this big rabbi that had

15 asked the women to start their own

16 division. I actually was in New square

17 when I had pre-eclampsia last year when

18 I had my baby. And I was there and I

19 called Hatzalah and the way it works is,

20 they don't have their own division.

21 It's that the Hatzalah member comes.

22 You get into the Hatzalah ambulance.

23 They actually make a stop at one of the

24 women's homes and then she comes into

25 the back of the Hatzalah van and I was




2 more than happy when she sat there

3 holding my hands the whole time. So I

4 just wanted to clarify that.

5 So I've been teaching for over

6 20 years. The first thing I do when I

7 go into a classroom is, I give out my

8 phone number and I tell all my students

9 that if you ever feel alone and you ever

10 feel you have no one you can turn to,

11 you can always call me. Over the years,

12 I had many different students come and

13 call me with different problems,

14 different issues that they don't want to

15 discuss with someone else. That ended

16 up morphing into me mentoring teens.

17 I've had several people live in my

18 homes, in my house, for extended periods

19 of time, whether it was a student of

20 mine or word got out.

21 You know, I recently had a woman

22 who was thrown out of the home and she

23 stayed in my home for several months, so

24 what ended up happening was, with all of

25 this going on, I sort of like became the




2 address for people to go to, to call

3 when they felt there was an issue in the

4 community. So, over the past few

5 years -- I'm very lucky. I've been very

6 instrumental in having many, many

7 meetings with very important people in

8 the Borough Park community and

9 implementing new initiatives, and

10 amongst them were in our education

11 system and many meetings with different

12 principals and we discussed new ideas

13 and new initiatives, which we then

14 implemented.

15 I was also a very big advocate

16 for early detection and early awareness

17 and in the summer months, I just felt

18 that mothers just had a little more time

19 on their hands and many of us go upstate

20 to the Catskills, so we did have groups

21 of women actually travel to different

22 (indiscernible) in the Catskills and

23 speaking about this in a more relaxed

24 fashion.

25 I am also involved in the




2 special needs community. What ended up

3 happening was, there were a lot of women

4 who approached me when a child was born

5 and they didn't know where to turn. It

6 just morphed into that. I actually

7 started a hotline that is worldwide.

8 Anybody from all over the world that has

9 a special need child can call this

10 hotline and they can discuss it -- we

11 can discuss it amongst ourselves and we

12 have educators coming on. It's

13 something very special and something

14 very, very helpful in the special needs

15 community.

16 One of most the important things

17 that I started was something called the

18 Food Pantry. I don't think anybody here

19 has ever heard of it; that is because we

20 keep it extremely, extremely discreet,

21 but I did have women who would ring my

22 bell and tell me that they couldn't feed

23 their familiars and I couldn't believe

24 it. This is going back like 10 years

25 ago. And I said, how could that be?




2 That there's food stamps and someone --


4 Ms. Grossberg, I apologize. Could I ask

5 you to try to stay relevant to -- I'm

6 sure you do many good works and I don't

7 mean to diminish it, but could you focus

8 on what we're here for tonight and speak

9 on the application?

10 MS. GROSSBERG: Yes, my

11 apologies.

12 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Thank

13 you.

14 MS. GROSSBERG: What I was

15 trying to say was (indiscernible) when

16 there is a void or when there is a need

17 in the community, most likely, I will

18 have heard of it. I have people call me

19 constantly: "We need to do something."

20 Never, not even once, has anyone ever

21 approached me that they felt there was a

22 need for a women's emergency service, so

23 that's one point that I wanted to make.

24 The second point that I wanted

25 to make is that, one of the issues that




2 came to my door was a woman from Canada

3 who reached out to me, her name was

4 Ms. Sveltzer (phonetic). She had

5 written a book on modesty and she had

6 the signatures of many big rabbis and

7 she wanted me to bring it to Borough

8 Park, which I did. And I lectured

9 extensively on it, on different things,

10 such as, not only modesty in looks, but

11 also not speaking loud in public and,

12 you know, different -- really, it was on

13 many different things.

14 I spoke at extensively in

15 different schools and answered women, so

16 when it comes to modesty, again, I will

17 have people call me and ask me questions

18 and never, again, not even once has

19 anyone ever said, I feel like it's a

20 breach of modesty when Hatzalah member

21 comes to my door. So I just wanted to

22 finish on that.

23 I'm sorry. I know I said I was

24 finished, but I wanted to mention one

25 more thing, please.




2 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Please,

3 go ahead.

4 MS. GROSSBERG: I did have to

5 call a Hatzalah member once. I have

6 eight children and one of my pregnancies

7 -- it's like the doctor said, you know?

8 It's just an uncomfortable position and

9 he was so caring and so nice that when

10 my son got engaged and we were shopping

11 around for a diamond, I actually told my

12 husband, I believe that the Hatzalah

13 member who helped us deals in diamonds

14 and he had such integrity in helping me

15 I can't imagine a better person to sell

16 us a diamond. I had no doubt that he's

17 extremely truthful and in his integrity.

18 MR. REISNER: No questions. It

19 has come to my attention that we do have

20 one other witness. I would defer to the

21 good doctor though. He's been waiting

22 so patiently. We could bring her after.

23 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Okay.

24 Who did I miss?

25 MR. REISNER: Blima Halpert.




2 Can we add her?

3 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Yup,

4 the name is there. I apologize. That's

5 my overlooking. Ms. Halpert, are you

6 here? Doctor, do you mind?

7 Ms. Halpert, come down. Thank you and I

8 apologize.

9 MS. HALPERT: My name is Blima

10 Halpert. I'm your typical Borough Park

11 Jewish woman. By "typical," I mean I

12 was Borough Park. I went to school in

13 Borough Park. I got married in Borough

14 Park and I married a man incidentally

15 who also lives in Borough Park and I

16 have 10 children, Thank God. So I

17 pretty much feel comfortable coming up

18 here representing the people because I

19 know the mindset of our women.

20 Now, I had a nice speech

21 prepared and then I got sidetracked

22 because I was hearing so much other

23 information from 5 o'clock until now

24 that I just started scribbling so many

25 things and I just was like, do I give my




2 speech? Do I respond to what I heard?

3 I think I'm just going to respond to two

4 things, because people made such good

5 points. I'm not a good speaker and if I

6 repeat it or I don't say it as well,

7 it's not going to kind of ruin it for

8 the other people.

9 Now, point number one, when

10 women call Hatzalah, it's in situations

11 of emergencies. Ezras Nashim keeps on

12 talking about calling and feeling. It

13 just kind of made me wonder why we're

14 here. We're talking about emergency

15 situations and the word "trauma" being

16 thrown around like that, I'm mean, I'm

17 traumatized, seriously, and for most of

18 you's who don't follow the Jewish

19 religion and you don't know us well, I

20 could really sell you the Brooklyn

21 Bridge. I could tell you anything and

22 you'll almost believe me. And the

23 reason I'm saying that is because not

24 one person here made this point the

25 entire time. The entire basis, the




2 claim of Ezras Nashim is not because

3 women need better care. It's because

4 women need people to feel their

5 feelings. Why? Because modesty is so

6 important.

7 Let me tell you how marriages

8 work in our community, okay? Or let me

9 go back now to the woman that's

10 traumatized. A woman that's traumatized

11 when she gives birth is married, has

12 relations with her husband, and she's

13 pretty comfortable with a man in her

14 life. And yet, in a situation of an

15 emergency, when she might not make it or

16 her child might not make it, she is

17 traumatized by a modest issue.

18 Let me tell you how kids get

19 married in my community. You might not

20 know it. You might get traumatized.

21 Our children go to separate schools.

22 Our daughters do not talk to men, right?

23 That's why women get traumatized when a

24 man sees them. Our daughters never play

25 with boys. They reach a young age and




2 they also don't watch -- as someone

3 said -- they don't have iPhones. They

4 don't look at TV. They don't know what

5 a boy or a man looks like. They become

6 18 and the mother pulls them into a room

7 and they say, "Honey, I love you.

8 Marriage is a great thing. We have a

9 marriage for you." Someone suggested a

10 boy for you. Do you want to meet him?

11 And the girl says, "yes." And she talks

12 to him for an hour and he looks sweet.

13 If they're not that Hasidic,

14 they might meet again. And if they're

15 not that Hasidic, they might meet even

16 yet again and then they're engaged and

17 they never talked to each other the

18 entire engagement and then they get

19 married. I have yet to hear of one

20 bride be traumatized by marriage. She

21 never saw a boy in her life. She never

22 spoke to a boy in her life. She never

23 watched TV. She doesn't even know this

24 is traumatizing and you know what? They

25 come to their week after the party and




2 they're smiling. All the girls are

3 smiling they're happy and they're on the

4 clouds. They are so happy. This woman,

5 when she has a baby, does not get

6 traumatized when a man sees her, not if

7 she didn't get traumatized the night of

8 her wedding.

9 And I will ask Hatzalah members

10 here how many times they have calls to

11 women on the night of their wedding.

12 Please tell me. And you're going to

13 convince me that these women, when they

14 have their children are traumatized,

15 really? You know what trauma means?

16 Trauma means hemorrhaging after nine

17 months of pregnancy and when you say

18 nine months of pregnancy, it means

19 nausea, varicose veins, weight gain,

20 tiredness, everything that goes on, the

21 whole package and then when she's about

22 to lose it, she's not traumatized?

23 That's trauma, and when Hatzalah comes

24 and delivers that baby or transports

25 her, they are so grateful. What a




2 distortion of reality. I have heard it

3 tonight. It's appalling. I have

4 nothing more to say.


6 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: I want

7 to say thank you. I'm going to ask for

8 us to calm down, quiet down. Thank you

9 again for everyone. Doctor, I think

10 you're going to hold us up in the best

11 possible way.

12 MS. HALPERT: Excuse me. Excuse

13 me.

14 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Yes,

15 please.

16 MS. HALPERT: There are two

17 women from the other side that are

18 harassing me. They just told me that

19 I'm a disgrace.

20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I wasn't

21 harassing you. That's my opinion.

22 MR. REISNER: Order. Order.

23 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Ladies,

24 I'm going to ask that -- if you would

25 like to have a private discussion at




2 another point. Right now, we're at a

3 public hearing. And we want to hear

4 this. Again, I understand the

5 sensitivity of the issue. I understand

6 the polarization that may happen and the

7 passion that's present, but again, I

8 think respect is paramount; that's been

9 here, and I would like it to remain

10 while we finish up here this evening.

11 Doctor, if you could just

12 announce yourself and spell your name

13 for the record?

14 DR. KAUFMAN: Yes, my name is

15 Brad Kaufman, K-A-U-F-M-A-N. I don't

16 think I'm related to Rabbi Kaufman, but

17 maybe. I'm from the Fire Department,

18 which is a proud supporter of Ezras

19 Nashim and obviously, we work extremely

20 close with Hatzalah every single day. I

21 am the first deputy medical director for

22 the Fire Department and I am also in

23 that role for the medical director for

24 the 911 Emergency Medical dispatch

25 system. I just was going to make one




2 point, which is directly related to

3 policy 06-06 and the consideration of

4 need in reviewing the papers from

5 counsel for Hatzalah. I did not see the

6 reporting of the number of times or the

7 percentage of times when Hatzalah is on

8 the scene and/or is called and requires

9 to request resources from 911, because

10 they have an additional need or require

11 additional resources. I think that

12 would be an important point for

13 consideration when we're taking need

14 into account. Thank you.


16 Questions?

17 MR. REISNER: I would only

18 submit that it's Ezras Nashim's

19 application, not Hatzalah's application.

20 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: That's

21 absolutely the case. Any questions from

22 the Committee? Doctor, thank you very,

23 very much. Are there any other

24 witnesses that we have? We're precluded

25 from inviting people who would like to




2 come join us. We are not precluded from

3 coming to an end. I will tell you the

4 following. Again, I mentioned this a

5 couple of times:

6 I am deeply thankful for the

7 passion and even though the passion may

8 be uncomfortable, but it is done from

9 spirit. It is done from heart. It's

10 done from truth and we may have

11 different truths. We may see it

12 differently. I don't know how I see it.

13 It's complicated. I think I may have

14 invoked Solomonic decision making and

15 the only saving grace that I have is,

16 whatever my recommendation is, these

17 good people get to decide ultimately, so

18 I am not making a final determination.

19 I'm the conduit. I am

20 privileged to have been here tonight. I

21 am thankful. It's difficult. Again,

22 we're bring it back. Need versus want.

23 Is it legally okay to have all male? Is

24 it optimal? Is that something that's

25 cognizable under what we have over here.




2 We have a very specific process detailed

3 by New York State and in both the law

4 and the regulations and the ultimate

5 question comes down to what becomes need

6 and when the committee will get my

7 report, Yay or Nay. I'm sure there will

8 be disagreement and there will be people

9 who like it and people who don't like

10 it, and there will be people in the

11 community who like it and don't like it

12 and it is what it is.

13 I will tell you that you will

14 get fairness from me. I know the vast

15 majority of members of the Ambulance

16 Committee and you will get fairness from

17 them. They will call it as they see it,

18 fairly, without prejudice and I

19 certainly wish the entire community,

20 again, Chevra Hatzalah has a wonderful

21 reputation of timeliness. The level of

22 inclusivity of women is not mine to

23 judge, but it seems that is a reason why

24 we have an application here before us.

25 How does that play out? I don't




2 know. I have to do my homework. I have

3 to scratch my head a lot and think, but

4 I want to say thank you as I go and deal

5 with the four quarters of the

6 application and the four quarters of

7 what the laws and regulations are

8 saying. I'm going to ask Marie to give

9 us a sense of what the timeframe is from

10 going forward, because Marie is going to

11 tell us what the timeframe is for the

12 Ambulance Committee to meet and for me

13 and my deadline in getting a decision.

14 MS. DIGLIO: The Hearing Officer

15 will be receiving a copy of the

16 transcript as soon as poor Daniel can

17 put it together.

18 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: God

19 bless you, Daniel.

20 MS. DIGLIO: We're going to ask

21 him to do it as quickly as he can and

22 the transcript will be sent to the

23 Hearing Officer and to members of the

24 Ambulance Committee and the Regional

25 Council. Hearing officer will use the




2 transcript and all the other information

3 that he's got ahead of time to put

4 together his recommendation. That

5 recommendation will then go on

6 November 19th to our Ambulance Committee

7 and they will consider that information

8 and make their recommendation to the

9 Regional EMS Council. It is the

10 Regional EMS Council that will finally

11 decide if need has been identified.

12 That decision will then be sent

13 to the State Emergency Medical Services

14 Council to have their final decision,

15 and at that point, either side, whoever

16 is a winner or a loser can appeal it.

17 So this may go on for a little while

18 longer. Any questions? Well, thank

19 you, everybody, for coming tonight.

20 HEARING OFFICER SCHORN: Please

21 get home safe.

22 Time noted: 9:20 p.m.

23

24

25



1

2 C E R T I F I C A T E

3

4 I, DANIEL A. JOSEPH, a Notary Public

5 within and for the State of New York, do hereby

6 certify:

7 That the witness(es) whose testimony is

8 hereinbefore set forth was duly sworn by me,

9 and the foregoing transcript is a true record

10 of the testimony given by such witness(es).

11 I further certify that I am not related

12 to any of the parties to this action by blood

13 or marriage, and that I am in no way interested

14 in the outcome of this matter.

15

16

17 ________________________

18 DANIEL A. JOSEPH

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

October 30, 2019


October 30, 2019


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