We Want the Airwaves - Mimi Thi Nguyen

8/12/2019 We Want the Airwaves - Mimi Thi Nguyen

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We Want the Airwaves transcript Mimi Thi Nguyen

Nia:So you proudly self-identify as an old lady punk in the academy.

Mimi: Yes. [laughter]

Nia:I'm curiousI don't actually know how old you are. I assume it's not that old. [laughter]but I'mcurious, what has kept you punk after all these years?

Mimi: [laughter]Well, I'm !. So, I'm pretty old. [laughter]"or punk.Nia: [laughter] #k, for punk.

Mimi:I don't know. [laughter] You know, I ha$e claimed to ha$e %uit punk a lot of times. [laughter]

Nia:& $ery punk thin to do.

Mimi:Which is a totally punk thin to do( )o be like *"uck all y'all( I'm %uittin( +unk is dead( You

all suck(

Nia: [laughter]

Mimi:ut I also realied how much I'm still shaped by bein punk, riht. So, and then e$ery time I'$esaid *I %uit punk, I was li$in in a city where I could say I %uit punk, but I was still hanin out with

all my punk friends, and I was still oin to shows, so what does that mean? So then, when I mo$ed to

the /idwest, and I had for the first time, the e0perience of bein a weirdo in a small town, then all my

punk feelins came back. 1ike, what does it mean to be a weirdo in a small town? I'd ne$er had thate0perience before. So, that really also reconnected me with my punk feelins, and also bein in the

academy. ein actually in the academy, sort of reconnected me with a lot of my punk feelins, and

how I want to be, how I want to na$iate that space. &nd, truthfully, it's also still a lot of the music thatI listen to. &nd the way in which I realied bein in the academy for how many years now? 2iht years.

3ow muchI had a whole creati$e and intellectual life before I came to the academy, and that's

because of punk. So I do still identify as a punk kid. [laughter]

Nia:[laughter]&s an old lady punk kid.

Mimi:&s an old lady punk kid.

Nia: [laughter] &nd you mo$ed to the /idwest to teach, is that correct?

Mimi:Yeah, so I mo$ed to the /idwest, because I ot a 4ob as an assistant professor in 5ender and

Women's Studies, and &sian-&merican Studies, so I had to mo$e.

Nia:What is that you think makes you a weirdo?

Mimi:You mean, in the academy, or in the /idwest?

Nia:oth.


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Mimi:oth. You know, I feel like I still ha$e a lot of my same mannerisms from when I wasI'm 4ust

not that polished, as a person. I really resisted bein professionalied in raduate school. When I was in

raduate school, you'd always hear about how to present yourself so you seemed like a professional,

and claimin your title, and all these other thinsI'm not interested in doin any of these thins. I'mnot interested in claimin a title. I'm not interested in

Nia:What does claimin a title mean?

Mimi:You know, makin people call me *professor. I don't make my students call me *professor.

Which is a whole other thin, because I know that a whole lot of other women of color in the academywant to claim that title in order to claim authority in the classroom, but that's 4ust not how I imaine my

classroom, as me in an authority position. &nd I attribute a lot of that, the way that I am in the

classroom and the way I am with my colleaues, to rowin up punk, which is $ery suspicious ofauthority fiures, and now that I'm an authority fiure, I'm suspicious of myself. So I'm always tryin

to undermine my own authority, which is a weird thin to do in the classroom.

Nia:&nd so you said that you distrustI don't know if distrust was the word you usedbut youdistrust yourself as an authority fiure, but you also, I think, ha$e a lot of distrust and criticism of the

academy. 6an you talk about that a little bit?

Mimi: I definitely do ha$e a lot of feelins about the academy, andespecially as someone who had

no particular intention of becomin a professor. When I went to raduate school, I 4ust wanted to learn

more stuff, and 4ust ha$eyou know, it's a real lu0ury to be able to sit around andas raduatestudents, you do end up doin a lot of labor, but it is nonetheless a lu0ury to ha$e structured time to

spend time reflectin and thinkin and readin and writin. ut I also learned to be suspicious in

raduate school of the academy because of the way in whichnot 4ust the professionaliation aspect in

terms of claimin mastery o$er a field of knowlede and all that stuff, because of course, you know,punk is all aboutI definitely ot from punk the idea that e$eryone canthat e0pertise doesn't ha$e to

be distributed throuh institutional means. )hat we can all become e0perts of somethin. &ll those

kinds of ideas about anti-hierarchical knowlede and stuff like that. So, all those attitudes I ended upbrinin with me into the academy once I ended up decidin that I would become a professor, and then

ettin a 4ob in the academy, and so it does make it a weird, conflicted relationship.

So, one of the thins I ha$e a commitment to is public education, so that's I'$e only e$er applied to 4obs

at public schools, because that's a commitment of mine. ut, public uni$ersities are increasinly

corporatied. So, what does that mean for me to be, one, workin for the state, which is such a weirdthin to think about, and two, to be in public education that's increasinly pri$atied and corporatied,

and that so much of the place that I work, 7ni$ersity of Illinois, so much of the fundin comes from the

fact that it's historically an aricultural school. So, we ha$e /onsanto doin e0periments at my school.

&nd we ha$e, I think we ha$e some nuclear thiny. It spins thins around or somethin, I don't know.ut I imaine there's probably military contracts and stuff happenin. 8efinitely at erkeley, when I

was a raduate student there, there were definitely military contracts with the 1awrence 1i$ermore lab,

and stuff like that. So, what does all that mean for me to be in$ested in public education, but then bein$ol$ed in an institution that's doin this kind of work on behalf of corporate and military-industrial

comple0es? It is a weird position to be in. )o think about those commitments and those criticisms

ha$in to be side by side, and to li$e with that.

Nia:3ow do you brin your sort of anti-authoritarianism to the classroom? What does that look like?


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Mimi: It's probably pretty funny to the students, because I do constantly undermine myself. I'll be like,

okay, you ha$e these assinments, you ha$e to do it this way, it has to look like this, here's a deadline.

ut at the same time I'll be like, but really, you know, why do we imaine that an arument has to

follow these con$entional forms, and why do you ha$e to write it in this lanuae, and why do we e$enthink that work is supposed to be ood for us?

Nia: [laughter]

Mimi:Where do these ideas come from, like this idea that bein producti$e and bein a ood worker,

and bein able to follow these con$entions for how we use lanuae to communicate with each other?Why do we think any of these thins make sense? What kinds of hidden limits and $ulnerabilities and

ideoloical constraints are in$ol$ed in me askin you to do this assinment? So that's what I sound like

in the classroom. It's really funny.

Nia:8o your students e$er come to you and like *#h, sorry, I didn't do the assinment, I was resistin

capitalism?

Mimi: [laughter] I wish(( ut I'm not thatI'm not a disciplinarian, which is somethin I fiured out

early on, e$en thouh I was told a lot as a woman of color who's small, and I look really youn, that I

would ha$e to take e0tra steps to command the respect of my students. &nd I think that would be true ifI wasn't teachin in 5ender and Women's Studies. ecause 5ender and Women's Studies is a $ery self-

selectin roup of students. So, they're not necessarily automatically inclined to imaine that I don't

know what I'm talkin about. Whereas, I think it miht be different in a traditional discipline, likehistory or 2nlish or somethin like that. "or the first couple years, I tried to be a serious person in the

classroom, but I'm not that serious. 1ike, it would always fall apart by like the third week

Nia:What does *pretendin to be serious look like for you? 8id you wear a suit?

Mimi: 9o, I can't wear suits because I look like I'm playin dress-up. ut I would wearlike, my idea

of bein serious was, I would wear all black on the first day of class.

Nia:)hat's so punk.

Mimi: [laughter]&nd I would try to smile a lot less. ecause I compulsi$ely smile, I smile all the

time. Which is not that punk.

Nia: [laughter]

Mimi: So I tried to look serious, and I asked students, at least try to call me +rofessor 9uyen for the

first couple times, after that you can call me /imi. Which was not that authoritarian, but that was asclose as I could et at the time. ut then I 4ust a$e all that up after a few years because it 4ust didn't

work for me as a way of imainin my classroom. ecause ideally, I like to think of my classroom,

especially a 5ender : Women's Studies classroom, as a place where I'm facilitatin, and while I ha$e asort of %uantitati$ely larer body of knowlede to draw on, I don't necessarilyI imaine that it's kind

of like me facilitatin a skillshare. Where we're all workin on our skills to think about certain kinds of

phenomena. While I'$e had more e0perience and more history with the skillset, e$eryone isparticipatin in this pro4ect of honin those skills. Includin myself. So that's kind of how I imaine

teachin.


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Nia:&nd what are your areas of interest within &sian-&merican Studies and Women and 5ender

Studies?

Mimi:1ike, what do I teach?

Nia:Yeah, but what are you e0cited about?

Mimi: I actually really like teachin feminist theories and methods. In &sian-&merican Studies, I really

only teach one class, which is &sian &mericans in the &rts. So I actually really en4oy teachin the art

class. I teach most of my classes in 5ender and Women's Studies, and I mostly teach feminist theory,and I really like teachin theory a lot.

Nia:What kind of stuff do you co$er in that class?

Mimi:We co$er a lot of %uestions about what kind of common-sense ideas we et about ender and

se0uality race, and e$en the accumulation and production of knowlede, and then thinkin critically

about all those kinds of ideas that we take for ranted about knowlede, about what race, what ender,what se0uality looks like. I'm really interested in thinkin about how we know what we think we know,

and what the limits and $ulnerabilities of those sort of common-sensical ways of thinkin about

knowlede miht be. If that makes sense.

Nia:Yeah. So you're %uestionin sort ofit sounds $ery epistemoloical.

Mimi: Yes. /y fa$orite thin to teach in terms of feminist theory is all about epistemoloical %uestions

about, why do we think we know anythin about a particular sub4ect? What are the sort of formations

of knowlede, what are the ways of oraniin knowlede that we ha$e that shape our understandin

of the world and how weand how this affects the oraniation of bodies and imaes and monies andhow they circulate in the world.

Nia:3ow is askin those %uestions feminist, or different from the kind of %uestions you would talkabout in a eneral philosophy class?

Mimi:)here's so mucha lot of the work I teach is written by feminist theorists who are askin thesekinds of bi %uestions, and thinkin about what relationships ender and se0uality and race ha$e to

institutional, but also intuiti$e structures of power. Ideas that certain thins are supposed to be intuiti$e,

but they're actually ideoloically put toether. 1ike, ideas about ender and se0uality that aresupposedly intuiti$e, but that ha$e institutional structures backin them up. /y hope is always that

some of the material will stick past the ;< weeks that I ha$e them in class with me for three hours a

week. )hat somethin about it will stick, and that it'llit's like a rain of sand inside an oyster, and

someday it will turn into a pearl, and maybe I won't et to see it, or e0perience the pearl that they rowfrom whate$er they et out of the course materials, but that's #= too.

Nia:)hat's a really beautiful metaphor.

Mimi: )hank you, thank you( [laughter]

Nia:6ould you talk about the pri$atiation and corporatiation of the academy, a little bit? )hat's really

broad. ut you were sayin that there's a tension that's created for you workin for the state and

workin for these institutions that are problematic in these particular ways, and also bein an old lady


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punk?

Mimi:I mean, ob$iously the pri$ate schools are also corporatied, and certainly complicit with all

kinds of corporate and state interests that I am not in fa$or of, so it's not like I can a$oid it at all.Increasinly, the state imaines that public education is not a priority, which means that a lot of budet

cuts are happenin left and riht in public education. In 6hicao, for instance, >ahm 2manuel has

closed like @ =-;A schools in areas that mostly ser$e populations of color, and then i$en like @million dollars to a pri$ate collee to de$elop a new sports arena. I mean, it's really remarkable that

public education is increasinly not a priority. Which means that public uni$ersities ha$e to o

elsewhere for money. )hat in$ol$es anythin from raisin tuition on students to askin faculty to applyto more e0ternal rants from state aencies that ha$e money, like the military, or from corporations. So

there's a lot of interest in faculty ettin these e0ternal rants, and brinin in e0ternal money.

Nia:&nd are those rants specifically for research, or that's 4ust to like, pay your salary so you can

keep doin your 4ob?

Mimi: It depends. "or instance, in schools of public health, a lot of faculty ha$e to fundraise for theirown salaries by ettin outside rants. )hat's not my situation because I'm in the humanities, and

nobody's onna pay me money to do the work I'm doin. 9o e0ternal aency is onna pay me that kind

of money. ut definitely that's a precarious situation. So for people who are doin research in publicpolicy, or public health, there is a lot of push to et corporate money to do that kind of work and that

kind of research. So, that's a reality, too, of the public uni$ersities. )hat, like I said, /onsanto is all

o$er my campus.

Nia:It sounds like you're sayin that the humanities are less co-optable because nobody wants to buy

them. [laughter]

Mimi:)he humanities are definitely, at least on my campus, but I think on a lot of campuses, are

definitely seen as the least profitable part of the uni$ersity, e$en thouh the humanities are also the

place where the business schools and the sciences imaine that we will make the students into peoplewho can articulate themsel$es in writin. We do a lot of teachin. )he humanities does a bulk of the

teachin, e$en on my campus.

Nia:&re you sayin that other departments don't teach?

Mimi: I'm sayin in some of the business schools, and some of the sciences, the professors teach lessthan we do in the humanities.

Nia:In terms of actual hours, or?

Mimi:In terms of actual hours. In terms of classes per semester, and thins like that. I can't belie$e you

find this interestin.

Nia:9o, I think it's really interestin(

Mimi: In the humanities we do a lot of the teachin, in terms of 4ust teachin them basic skills, in termsof writin and composition, and bein able to interact with people. &nd so we do a lot of the teachin

that is about preparin them for whate$er 4obs they imaine they'll ha$e afterward. ut we're seen as

teachers and not researchers.


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Nia:&s opposed to other departments.

Mimi:&s opposed to other departments that imaine that they're researchers, because their work isabout the *real world, %uote-un%uote and the humanities is somehow not. So there's definitely a weird

idea about the humanities as both disposable, but also indispensable. 8isposable in terms of we don't

do real research, but indispensable in terms of that's where a lot of the teachin happens. We're ointhrouh a search to find the dean for the 6ollee of 1etters, &rts, and 3umanities, and it's been like a

series of scientists and stuff who'$e come in to apply for the 4ob, and someone from the humanities

asked one of the applicants, *What is your $ision for the humanities? because the humanities areincluded as part of the 6ollee of 1etters, &rts, and Sciences of course. &nd they were like, *well, you

know, I really lo$e music. ...was their answer for the $ision of the humanities. >iht, so it's this idea

that the humanities is kind of like, disposable, it's like the fun stuffyou en4oy music and you likelookin at art.

Nia: It seems weird that the sciences and humanities would e$en be lumped toether.

Mimi: Yeah.

Nia:It doesn't make any sense.

Mimi:Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. ecause it's really une$en how the humanities and the sciences

are treated in the same collee.

Nia:Yeah. I thinkSo, my dad is a professor.

Mimi: #h, okay.

Nia:&nd I think that's part of the reason why I find the academy really interestin, because

Mimi:What does he teach?

Nia:+sycholoy.

Mimi: #kay.

Nia:ecause I knowlike I had this eneral sense rowin up that he was in a $ery hostile work

en$ironment, and that there was a lot of politics and backstabbin in the academy, but I ne$er really

understood why. &nd I feel like I continue to, as I ha$e more and more friends that are oin to rad

school and are miserable, I'm always hearin about how competiti$e it is, and it's like I know that to betrue but I still don't really understand why. I think maybe on some le$el I still ha$e this weird idea of

you know, it took me a while to realie that collees are basically corporations, and, like, moneymakin

endea$ors, because I was sort of tauht to think of them as these sort of utopian places of learnin. Ithink that a lot of people row up thinkin that, whether their parents are professors or not. ut you're

in a uni%ue position to sort of articulate why are these spaces so cutthroat and so corporate when they're

supposed to be about learnin.

Mimi:#h no. )hey're super corporate. )here's been an e0plosion in the last ;@ years of administrati$e

positions in the uni$ersities that are all about corporate fundraisin, about manain +> and all these


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other concerns that ha$e nothin to do with the work of teachin. )here's a lot of talk on campuses

about creatinlike, my campus spends a lot of money on facilities for students. )here are some

schools that are basically like four-year resorts. )here's so many de$elopments on my campus that are,

like, apartments for students that ha$e maid ser$ice, and there's like a flat-screen in e$ery room, andfree wi-fi. It's 4ust like a super fancy resort.

Nia:Is that to attract students with money, that will then ideally subsidie the rest of the school?

Mimi: Yes. &nd to 4ustify the tuition raises. ut of course, not all students are onna be able to access

the fancy de$elopments.

Nia:>iht. I would assume most students probably can't.

Mimi:It's a really weird situation. It's completely a fucked up situation.

Nia:#kay. [laughter] So I'm realiin we ha$en't actually talked that much about your work

specifically.

Mimi:#kay.

Nia:)he reason you and I know each other is throuh ines. You wrote a really influential ine, which

I think you said was back in '!B.

Mimi: Yes.

Nia:6alledEvolution of a Race Riot, which I belie$e was one of the first ines about punks of color.

6ould you talk a little bit about why people are still askin you about that kind of work so many yearslater?

Mimi: [laughter] I think that when I started collectin contributions to that compilation ineI startedcollectin thins in ;!!CI think that it still resonates because we didn'tI don't think that we had a

con$ersation about race or racism in punk on that scale, of ha$in a collecti$e con$ersation about it, or

a dialoue about it, until then, as far as I know. So we had homocore in the late D@s, to start talkinabout se0uality and %ueer se0ualities, and then of course riot rrl happened, and all of a sudden we

were talkin about ender and misoyny, but we hadn't yet in punk had that kind of con$ersation about

race. I was really feelin its absence after a series of fucked up encounters with the way that punktalked about race and racism.

Nia:6an you i$e an e0ample?

Mimi: Yeah. I mean, basically what made me do theRace Riotine was a columnist forMaximum

Rocknroll, which is based in San "rancisco, and I was in the ay &rea at the time oin to school,

wrote a column about how he really lo$ed &sian women becauseand then he made these 4okes abouthow &sian women's eyelids look like slants, or are slanted, and thus looked like $ul$a. Which I don't

e$en know how that happens. &nd then resurrected an old imperial 4oke about how maybe he's really

curious about how whether &sian women's $ul$a were also slanted and horiontal.

Nia:Sometimes I wish that the listeners could see my face.


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Mimi: [laughter] So you know, there's a lon history of imperial speculation about the bodies of racial

and colonial women bein somehow inhuman and se0ually distinct from white, 2uropean women's

bodies, and it bein both a source of disust, but also desire. >iht, so there's a lon imperial history of

that. So he resurrected that 4oke and told it in the paes ofMaximum Rocknroll.

Nia: Which isdoesMaximum Rocknrollha$e sort of anti

Mimi: Yes.

Nia: I know it's supposed to be punk, but does it ha$e, like?

Mimi:#fficially it did say, no racism, no se0ism, no homophobia. ut that column ot published

anyway. So I was like ;!, I was a 5ender and Women's Studies underraduate, I was readin all thispostcolonial feminist theory. I wrote a $ery pissed off letter toMaximum, that was like, half cuss words,

half postcolonial feminist theory, about how fucked up that was. It ot published, and then the

columnist decided to write a response that was all about me, and how e$en thouh I was &sian, because

I was feminist, I was probably uly, so he wouldn't want to fuck me anyway. &nd then there was adebate at the maaine, which I heard about because I had friends who worked there, about whether or

not to publish it. ecause it seemed like maybe it was se0ist and racist. [laughter]

Nia: [laughter]+erhaps. It was also a personal attack.

Mimi: Yeah. & personal attack. &nd then the coordinator and founder of the maaine, )im Yohannan,decided that it was satire. )hat it fell under the umbrella of satire. &nd so decided to publish it. So, in

the aftermath of ha$in that column come out, it felt likeI knew )im. I met )im, because I worked at

the record store that he helped to start.

Nia:3e's the one that ran it, or the one that wrote the column?

Mimi:3e's the one who ran it. So I knew )im Yohannan, and I felt like, I 4ust feltand the fact that itran in the paes ofMaximum, which is internationally distributed, read, punk bible or whate$er. It 4ust

felt like I am not welcome in this scene. I'm not allowed towe can't ha$e a con$ersation about race. I

can't ha$e a con$ersation about race or racism with these people. &nd 4ust the way that people wererespondin to me or talkin to me about it was 4ust pissin me off. )he way that con$ersations would

happen or wouldn't happen around it. "riends would be like, *#h my od, I'm really sorry that

happened to you. but it was about the personal attack part, but not necessarily about the reproductionof this fucked up punk racist cool thin. 1ike, it's ironic, it's satirical, so it's not really racist. )here was

an anti-racist discourse in punk, but it was all about like, neo-9ais and fihtin the =lan, and stuff like

thatwhich, you know, let's fiht the =lan and the neo-9ais, but.

Nia:ut it's all about lookin outward, at the enemies of

Mimi: Eery ob$ious.

Nia:&s opposed to lookin inward at how people with in punk miht be perpetuatin oppression e$en

if they don't ha$e a swastika tattoo.

Mimi:&nd that kind of stance in punk is $ery old. )hat kind of ironic racism stance is $ery $eryit's

been there since the beinnin, riht? ecause it's supposed to be shockin to wear a swastika, or it's


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supposed to be shockin to say somethin, to be racist, riht? )here's a lon history of that in punk, and

I wanted to be able to talk about it. &nd I wanted to talk to other people of color about their e0periences

of punk. So I was like, *"uck punk, I'm not onna be punk anymore( ut before I lea$e punkyou

know, the first timeI want to make a con$ersation with other punks of color because I'm sick oftalkin to white people about it. So that's how the first compilation ine happened, was me wantin to

ha$e that con$ersation, e$en if we didn't all aree, which we didn't, about what it should look like, how

to talk about race in punk. 3ow to talk about racism and anti-racism in punk. Fust to e$en ha$e thebeinnins of con$ersation about that. )hat's how the first compilation ine happened. I think that,

becausethere were definitely ines made by people of color before me, that talked about race and

racism, and I reprinted some of those that I could find in the compilation ine, but to ha$e them be incon$ersation toether I think hadn't happened yet. &nd so I think that's how it resonated.

Nia:Yeah. )here's such a hue ap, first of all, between I think what punk says it stands for, and theway punks actually act. )he fact that that could run in a maaine that calls itself anti-racist and anti-

se0istI mean, I don't think the listeners need me to e0plain why that's a contradiction. ut then there's

also so many differentpeople are drawn to punk for really different reasons.

Mimi: Yeah.

Nia:&nd some people are drawn for the shock $alue, I think. &nd there's a $ery nihilistic element ofpunk that I was always $ery turned off by. ut I'm tryin to think of how to e0plain for listeners that

miht not be punk that there's political punks and apolitical punks, and punks that actually really do

care about racism, and then a lot that say they do, but then are not doin that reflection, lookin inwardin terms of howthere are people who think that they're marinalied because they're punk, and that

that's like, the same as bein a person of color. [laughter] "or e0ample.

Mimi:Yes. Yes.

Nia:So there's a realand like with feminism or with any other political ideoloy, there's a hue rane

of people who use that term to describe themsel$es who actually ha$e a really different ways ofthinkin about thins, or really different priorities and $alues. I'm really lad you told that story, and

I'm really lad you created that ine. ecause it seems like it was superI mean it's still super crucial

to ha$e that con$ersation. I think I#sa inter$iewed me forMaximum RnR in A@@!, and I talked aboutwhy I don't call myself a punk anymore. &nd it was larely likeI'm tired of people bein full of shit.

Sayin that they're anti-racist, but then, the shows are all white. 3er and I, I feel like, ot into this

debate about whether or not it's worth it to claim space for yourself in a scene that is 4ust inherentlyhostile, and is always onna be hostile. &nd this oes back to the first %uestion I asked you, butyou

still call yourself a punk. Yeah. &s a punk of color, do you feel like it's important for you to claim that

space? 8o you feel like it's an intentional political choice?

Mimi: It's definitely not an intentional political choice, but for me I really feel like I rew up in punk. I

disco$ered it when I was ;. It was huely important for me. It totally informs how I interact with

people, and 4ust the way that my brain works in a lot of ways. So, it's not necessarily that I'm like *I'mclaimin space for myself as a punk of color( but it's likethis is 4ust how I rew up, I feel like. &nd

that's because punk is so many thins to different people. 9yky says, e$erybody has a different punk

door, and that there's a moment when the punk door appears to you, and you either walk throuh it, oryou don't, but e$eryone's door is different. 2$eryone's entry into punk is different.

/y entry to punk was definitely thouh politics, and feelin like a weirdo, and wantin to think about


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politics. )he firstMaximum RocknrollI picked up when I was ;, I learned about >onald >eaan's

co$ert operations in 6entral &merica, and how he was workin to undermine democratic, socialist

mo$ements and o$ernments. &nd that totally was 4ust like, oh my od, my mind is blown. )his is

where I want to be, readin, knowin about this stuff. So, I feel like other people bein shitty in punk,like shitty punks don't take that away from me. )hat that was my entry into learnin about radical

politics and meetin radical, awesome feminists and %ueers and weirdos and artists. So, I don't feel like

shitty punks take that away from me. ut, it also helps that since I'$e done that ine, that I'$e manaedto find a community of punks of color who are amain and smart and radpunks of color, and

feminist punks, and stuff. So those are the people I think about when I think about punk. So that helps.

Nia:Yeah. )hat makes me feel better.

Mimi: [laughter]

Nia:I think it's interestin that 9yky uses the punk door metaphorI say it like it's a metaphor I'$e

heard it before, it's notbecause I started, I feel like really recently talkin about punk as like, this

party that I came in the side door into, thinkin it was one party, and it took me a $ery lon time torealie it wasn't that party and to lea$e.

Mimi: [laughter]

Nia: [laughter]ecause it presented itself in my life, anyway, as anti-racist, anti-se0ist, pro-%ueer, and

then turned out to be $ery much, likeyou can't really make any eneraliations about punk becauseit's so, I was onna say di$erse, which is kind of ironic, but likeGbecause ob$iously there are people

that are punks of color and feminist punks and %ueer punks, that are really doin the work, but then

there are also a lot of people that are usinin oston in particular I feel like it was class war

anarchism as a way to 4ust not talk about race, or e$en really class in a meaninful way. [laughter]&ndthen you also write a ine called Slander.

Mimi:/mm-hmm.

Nia:Is that likeyou'$e been doin that for a lon time, since the !@s as well?

Mimi: Yeah. I chaned its name a couple times. ut now it's been Slander for a lon time. So, yeah,

I'$e done that ine as well. It also mostly has been pretty political.

Nia:Is it a perine, orwhat's it about?

Mimi:Slanderhas been a lot ofit's definitely informed by what I'm doin in school. ecause I

started it when I was an underraduate, so a lot of it is me takin what I learned in school, and applyinit to punk situations or punk politics, or takin the thins I'$e learned in school and puttin it into a ine

about feminist theory and stuff like that. So, for instance, the $ery firstI was learnin all these

women of color feminisms, and I wrote about riot rrl throuh all the women of color feminisms I wasreadin and learnin about in my ine. So, my criti%ues of the way race ets talked about in riot rrl,

for instance.

Nia:8oes race et talked about in riot rrl?

Mimi: It wasn't at the time, e0cept in really weird and troublin ways. )his is like, the early !@s. I


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rememberI'm not sayin this is representati$ebut I remember ettin a riot rrl ine from Southern

6alifornia, where the author, who was probably a teenaer at the time like I was, was talkin about how

she hated %uote-un%uote *beaners, and that the %uote-un%uote *beaners were the most responsible for

se0ually harrassin her on the street, and stuff like that. Fust bein like, woah( 1ike, what the fuck(? So,it would rane from that kind of thin to these really weird, this kind of white liberal hand-wrinin

about not ha$in enouh people of color in their li$es, and needin to o make more friends with

people of color, which seems so creepy( 1ike, collectin people of color to shore up their anti-racistcredibility. &nd I was like, oh my od( 9o(

Nia:8id you e$er feel like you were bein tokenied as a punk of color? #rI don't know if youidentified as a riot rrl of color?

Mimi:I did not identify as a riot rrl at the time, e$en thouh now people think I was.

Nia:)here was a showsorry. )he +#6 Hine +ro4ect show we did in Seattle, some uy came in, I

think 4ust like off the street, because the $enue had hue plate lass windows and was riht at street

le$el, and was like *#h, it's so reat that you uys are here, because I'm presentin a paper on riot rrltomorrow( and )oi ScottJ and I were workin by the door and we're like *... I can't help you. I don't

know anythin about riot rrl. )his is not a riot rrl party.

Mimi: I mean, that's a whole other thin. )he way in which riot rrl at the time, and still now, eclipses

all the other kinds of punk feminisms that were happenin at the time. 1ike, punk and %ueer feminisms

that were happenin at the time. I identified as an anarchist-feminist. ecause I was kind of like, semi-crust. ecause I was clean( I would take showers. ut my clothes were really ross.

Nia:[laughter]So you would nice and clean and then put on

Mimi:Yes. I waspersonallyclean, I don't know why I feel like that's important for people to know. I

was personally $ery tidy, but my clothes were, like, had that kind of crust sheen. &nyway. [laughter]

Nia:I feel like I would ha$e wanted a protecti$e layer between myself and my filthy clothes.

Mimi: [laughter]Well, this is another thin that nobody really needs to know, but I'm onna say, is thatI actually don't ha$e, like, body odor. So that also helped.

Nia:[laughter]3ow can you be punk if you don't ha$e #?

Mimi: [laughter]I don't know( ut I 4ust didn't. I didn't. It was both a ift and a curse. [laughter] So,

I didn't identify as a riot rrl. 1ike, I didn't understand reclaimin femininity, because I didn't

e0perience femininity in the particular way that it seemed like a lot of punk women had, because of Ithink their whiteness, they had a particular idea of what they looked like, that I didn't share. So I didn't

identify as a riot rrl, yet I et identified as a riot rrl in retrospect because I think there's a sort of

historioraphic erasure of all the other kinds of punk feminisms that were happenin at the time. #rother kinds of feminisms, period. >iht, because it's so weird and fucked up how when people talk

about !@s feminism, they think riot rrl, instead of hip hop feminism. Which also emered in the !@s.

It's huely important, but often, in the media, when people talk about what !@s feminism was, it's like,riot rrl.

Nia:3mm. Which was probably so much less mainstream than hip hop.


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Mimi: >iht( ut, I don't know, that's a whole other thin.

Nia:)hat's really interestin. /y partner and I had this whole con$ersation about about how hip hopinfluenced our se0uality. 3e's a couple years youner than me, so I rew up with like, Salt-n-+epa,

*9one of Your usiness, and I feel like that really helped me de$elop a positi$elike, the sense that I

could say no, you know. &nd he rew up with =elis and her */ilkshake, [laughter]With a $erydifferent messae. I was like man( I wish you could ha$e rown up with Salt-n-+epa( )hins miht

ha$e been totally different( &nd

Mimi:3ow did we et on that? [laughter] Where did we start?

Nia:We were talkin about Slander, and then we were talkin about riot rrl

Mimi: #h yeah.

Nia:ut also, my best friend in hih school was a riot rrl, and I was $ery firmly a punk and not a riotrrl. &nd I feel like there's this thin where it's like, if you're a woman punk, then 4ust defaultedly

people assume you're a riot rrl.

Mimi:/mm hmm. Yeah.

Nia: &nd I was $ery anti-riot rrl. I was like, no I don't want anythin to do with that( I think it wasmostly because I saw riot rrl as a white thin. &nd maybe also some internalied se0ism on my part.

Where I was like, I listen to bands with irls in them, but I don't listen to riot rrl bands. [laughter]It

seems really stupid lookin back on it.

Mimi: Well, I mean, for me, because I was already in$ol$ed in anarchist politics, but also thinkin

about eopolitics, like the >eaan administration in 6entral &merica and stuff like that. )hat's where I

started off in my politics, and I feel like you didn't often see those kinds of %uestions addressed in riotrrl, about

Nia:International politics?

Mimi:Yeah, like eopolitics or larer politics about the state and stuff like that.

Nia:Sorry, I'm not actually sure what eopolitics means.

Mimi: 5eopolitics, like interactions between lare states and armies and corporations, and all those

kinds of thins. Imperial histories of international relationships and stuff like that.

Nia:Yeah. I think punk, too, is really selecti$e about what international political issues it cares about.

Mimi:Yeah.

Nia:1ike there's this really weird, particularly amon anarchists, romanticiation that happens of theSpanish 6i$il War.

Mimi: Yeaaaah.


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Nia: [laughter]

Mimi:2$eryone lo$es the Spanish 6i$il War.

Nia: Yeah. I don't et it.

Mimi: [laughter]

Nia:ut like, not a whole lot of talk about anti-colonial strules in &frica or &sia. &nd then youpublished a bookwas it last year, or the year before?

Mimi: I think it was "all A@;A.

Nia:&nd what's the title?

Mimi:It's called The Gift of reedom! "ar# $e%t# and &ther Refugee 'assages.

Nia:&nd your book 4ust won, I should know this

Mimi: [laughter]It 4ust won, it's co-winner of the A@;C I uess, #utstandin ook in 6ultural Studies

&ward from the &ssociation of &sian &merican Studies. [laughter]

Nia:&nd what is the book about?

Mimi: )he book is actuallyI often think that, aain, this is like a seed that punk planted in me, but

the book is about thinkin about how the 7nited States waes war in the name of i$in to others whoare presumed not to ha$e it the ift of freedom. ut how in i$in %uote-un%uote *the ift of freedom

it's actually the imposition of liberal empire. )hat the idea of *the ift of freedom isn't 4ust a rhetorical

ploy, but it's actually how liberal empire asserts its powers o$er other populations.

Nia:6an you e0plain what is meant by liberal empire?

Mimi:I think of liberal empire as a way of talkin about a kind of imperial pro4ect that presumes that

it's not an imperial pro4ect. 1ike, the 7nited States doesn't call itself an empire. It imaines itself

Nia:&s a bene$olent force that in$ades other countries?

Mimi: Yes, it's 4ust a bene$olent force that in$ades other countries in order to liberate them and teach

them how to be better at %uote-un%uote bein *free. It's the empire that claims not to be one. So that'swhat I think makes it a liberal empire, because it distinuishes itself from earlier iterations of empire

that are less shy about callin themsel$es imperial, e$en as it borrows from those same kinds of

colonial mappins of the world and ways of talkin about populations, and stuff like that. It nonethelesspresumes a distinction between the empires of *old %uote-un%uote, and the way in which it, the 7nited

States, conducts itself in the world.

Nia:What do you think is uni%ue about your analysis of this issue?

Mimi: I uess because I take seriously the idea of the ift of freedom, aain not 4ust as rhetorical ploy


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or a lie, but how imperial power asserts itselfthat the ift of freedom is actually a description of how

imperial power asserts itself. I arue that, drawin on these two theorists, one who talks about the ift

as the imposition of a debt, so this idea that the ift that announces itself as a ift is actually an

imposition of a debt. /y fa$orite e0ample is, you hear the clichK of the mom who's like *I a$e youlife( I canyou owe me( So it's not a ift, if it announces itself as a ift and if it's somethin that can

be taken back, or be used to oblie the person who recei$es the ift to act in a particular way, or to

direct themsel$es towards certain kinds of desires or ways of bein in the world.

I borrow from this "rench theorist Fac%ues 8errida when he theories the ift as an imposition of debt.

)he idea that *I'$e i$en you this ift of freedom, you owe us in a particular way. &nd then the otherperson I draw on is another "rench theorist named /ichel "oucault who arues that freedom is nothin

more or less than the relationship between the o$ernor and the o$erned. ecause definitions of

freedom $ary so widely, and people ha$e different kinds of attachments to freedom, and yet freedom isimained to be the thin that e$ery human bein wants, and yet e$eryone defines it differently. If we

think about it 4ust as that, the relationship between the o$ernor and the o$erned, we can see how

freedom operates as a political problem, as a problem of power and who has it o$er who, and what does

it look like.

Nia:What is the ideal relationship, what is the relationship between the o$ernor and the o$erned that

would e%ual freedom?

Mimi:7h

Nia:#r am I misunderstandin the?

Mimi: Well, he arues, and I aree with him, that there is no ideal form of freedom, but that it is 4ust

this constant neotiation between the o$ernor and the o$erned about what constitutes freedom. Sothere's 4ust a constant debate about what freedom looks like that happens between the o$ernor and the

o$erned, in terms of ha$in these competin ideas about freedom. I'm aruin that we all assume that

freedom is somethin we all want, but we can't actually aree on what the content is, riht? 1ike,people don't aree on what freedom looks like. So I sort of a$oid talkin aboutI don't want to talk

about what I think, ideally, freedom should look like. ut I want to look at how people talk about

freedom in order to make certain kinds of claims to power, and to describe that relationship betweenthe o$erned and the o$ernors. 8oes that make sense?

Nia: I think so.

Mimi:Yeah. )here's always talk about how some people ha$e too much freedom. Some people don't

ha$e enouh freedom. &nd then there are all those neotiations about it. It's precisely these kind of

measurements, of who has too much, who has too little freedom that then, liberal empire can come inand say, *You don't ha$e enouh freedom. You don't know what it looks like. 1et us show you.

Nia:#r *you're not usin it correctly.

Mimi:*You're not usin it correctly. >iht, so all these kinds of measurements and e$aluations and

assessments, and promises then to produce freedom for other people is what interests me, rather thantryin to find *well, here's an e0ample of people bein free. #r *here's what freedom should look like,

ideally. I'm not tryin to do those kinds of thins. I'm interested in how freedom becomes a way to

describe and to enact certain kinds of $iolence and power.


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Nia:Yeah. &nd you apply this analysis to a couple of specific eoraphical and historical places and

situations. Ira%, &fhanistan

Mimi: &nd Eietnam.

Nia:#kay.

Mimi: Yeah.

Nia:&nd maybe I ot this wron, but I thouht that you're also lookin at how this informs immirant

and refuee e0periences in the 7S.

Mimi:Yeah. )hat's in there.

Nia:6ould you talk about that a little bit?

Mimi: I use the e0ample of the Eietnamese refuee as someone who recei$es the ift of freedom twice

o$er. )he first time in the form of the 7nited States wain war in Eietnam to freeto keep the

6ommunists from takin o$er Eietnam. If you o back and look at the lanuae of the Eietnam War,it's all about helpin the South Eietnamese to learn how to be free, how to preser$e freedom aainst the

tyranny of 6ommunist rule, so that the 7nited States war in Eietnam is one way of the ift of freedom

bein ranted to the South Eietnamese. )he second way is then lettin in refuees from the war inEietnam. We then recei$e the ift of freedom twice o$er. "irst in terms of war, and second in terms of

refue. I look at refuee policy, and how refuee policy was really informed by anti-6ommunist

ideoloies, and the oals of the 7S state. "or instance, the 7nited States defined as refuees, or

accepted as refuees people who were fleein from 6ommunist countries, but not people who arefleein from totalitarian states that the 7nited States was allied with.

Nia:>iht.

Mimi: >efuee policy was $ery much informed by the 7S state's own political interests and anti-

6ommunism and the 6old War. )hat's how I look at how that plays out in terms of the Eietnameserefuee.

Nia:&nd the sort of continuin sense of debt once someone has reached the 7S.

Mimi:Yeah. #ne of the e0amples in the book is about how the author of the +atriot &ct is a

Eietnamese refuee who was an assistant attorney eneral in the Fustice 8epartment, and he e0plicitly

talks about writin the +atriot &ct as part of his debt to the 7nited States for the ift of freedom. So he$ery e0plicitly talks about that.

&nother e0ample is this woman who is a weapons de$eloper for the 7S 9a$y. &nd she created thisthermo-somethin-somethin bomb. It's in the book. I can't remember the name of the kind of bomb.

ut it's this bomb that she created for the war in &fhanistan that would, because there was all this talk

about &l-Laeda hidin in ca$es and deep in mountains, so she created this bomb that would create aheat wa$e so intense that it could e0plode on the outside of a mountain, but then melt e$eryone's orans

who miht be inside of it.


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Nia:Wow.

Mimi: ecause the heat would be so intense. So she talks about the bomb that she created and

de$eloped for this war in &fhanistan as, aain, part of her repayin the debt for her ift of freedom,and as a part of participatin in liberal empire, so then rantin more freedom to &fhanistan in the

form of this de$astatin bomb. So this idea that this weapon is part of

Nia:+ayin it forward.

Mimi:+ayin it forward. [laughter] Yeah.

Nia:)hat is so intense.

Mimi: Yeah( It's super intense( )hat book is really informed by me feelin like, what the fuck is

happenin? 3ow are these kinds ofhow is this lanuae happenin? 3ow are people accessin this

lanuae of debt for the ift of freedom? If we take seriously the ways in which people are describin

their debt for the ift of freedom, how can we think about how the ift of freedom is not 4ust, aain,like a rhetorical flourish that sounds nice, but it's actually how liberal empire conducts itself and

e0ercises its form of rule.

Nia:It actually becomes deeply embedded in indi$idual psycholoy. )hat's so deep. [laughter]

Mimi: Yeah. It's intense. It's a lot.

Nia:So people should buy the book. [laughter] Is there anythin else that you want to plu before we

wrap?

Mimi:laughterJ 9o, not really.

Nia:#kay. You should check out Slander. It's a$ailable fromrown >ecluse?

Mimi: Yes. It's a$ailable from rown >ecluse and Straner 8aner ine distros.

Nia:6ool. )hanks so much for bein on the podcast.

Mimi: )hanks for ha$in me(

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We Want the Airwaves - Mimi Thi Nguyen