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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

O/N H-762178

THE HONOURABLE M. WHITE AO, CommissionerMR M. GOODA, Commissioner

IN THE MATTER OF A ROYAL COMMISSION INTO THE CHILD PROTECTION AND YOUTH DETENTION SYSTEMS OF THE NORTHERN TERRITORY

ALICE SPRINGS

10.11 AM, THURSDAY, 16 MARCH 2017

Continued from 15.3.17

DAY 15

MR P.J. CALLAGHAN SC appears with MR T. McAVOY SC, MR B. DIGHTON, MS V. BOSNJAK, MR T. GOODWIN and MS S. McGEE as Counsel AssistingMS S. BROWNHILL appears with MR C. JACOBI for the Northern Territory of AustraliaMR P. O’BRIEN appears with MS C. GOODHAND for Dylan VollerMR D. WOODROFFE appears for North Australian Aboriginal Justice Agency and BEMS F. GRAHAM appears for the Central Australian Aboriginal Legal Aid ServiceMR P. TIERNEY appears for witness BYMR S. O’CONNELL appears for Jamal Turner and ANMS S PARSONS appears for Christopher Castle

.ROYAL COMMISSION 16.3.17 P-1186©Commonwealth of Australia

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MR McAVOY: Thank you, Commissioners. The witness proposed to be called this morning is a vulnerable witness who has been identified by the initials BY. BY has been assessed as suitable to give evidence by Relationships Australia and the recommendation is that he give evidence by audio visual link using a pseudonym, and I have confirmed with BY and with his legal representatives that that’s the method by which he prefers to give evidence, and his legal representatives have ..... BY is presently in the AVL remote room, and I propose to seek leave in a moment to leave the bar table and attend on him in the room for the purpose of examining him.

There are some issues that are probably best dealt with before I leave, though, and I can indicate that there have been some issues in relation to redaction of the tender bundle to ensure that there aren’t disclosures of names following from the use of the pseudonyms for the purpose of the evidence. Those that instruct me have told me that the tender bundle that ..... from the Commission and both – and the responsive tender bundle will be in redacted form and ready to be tendered and uploaded later this afternoon. I know that the – my learned colleague, the Solicitor-General, has some view about how that might be best done and would prefer that it be tendered now on the basis that it’s uploaded later. I have no particular preference, it’s simply that once tendered it should go on to the open website.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Except, of course, in terms of keeping track of things on the transcript where – what the issue is might be lost a little bit. There is a lot to be said for locating it where it’s actually being used, even if it doesn’t get uploaded until the end of the day.

MR McAVOY: Certainly.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I think having looked at long transcripts over many years, I know that you sometimes just can’t find things and that may be a sensible reason for doing it. Now – and I know that’s a slight departure from what we’ve told the general public that we will do, but I think there’s good reason for departing.

MR McAVOY: As I indicated, I’m content with that course, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Right.

MR McAVOY: And so I tender the Commission tender bundle for the witness – sorry tender bundle tabs - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Are we going – are you going to do his statement?

MR McAVOY: I will tender his statement after - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: After he’s - - -

.ROYAL COMMISSION 16.3.17 P-1187 ©Commonwealth of Australia

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MR McAVOY: After I go to the room, but I would normally not do this until I’m with the witness but it seems easier to do it now.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Alright.

MR McAVOY: So tender bundle tabs 83, 92, 93, 94, 97, 98, 341, 342, 343, and 344.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. Those identified documents from the tender bundle will be exhibit 64.83 and then as indicated by Mr McAvoy.

EXHIBIT #64.83 TENDER BUNDLE TABS 83, 92, 93, 94, 97, 98, 341, 342, 343, AND 344

MR McAVOY: I also indicate that certain documents in their responsive tender bundle are tendered by consent and that’s the whole of the bundle excluding tabs 4, 10, 11, 15, and I should note that tabs 12, 13, 20 and 26 relate to CCTV footage about which I’ve had some discussions with my learned friends from the Northern Territory Government, and indicated that if the evidence is presented in a different form that that may be able to be tendered by consent at some later point.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Alright. Now - - -

MR McAVOY: The Solicitor may wish to address you on that, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Just so that I can be quite clear, there is a bundle of documents then from the Northern Territory which have been tendered as an exhibit, with the exception of 4, 10, 11, 15 and 12, 13 and 26.

MR McAVOY: That’s correct.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Is that the case?

MS BROWNHILL: And 20.

MR McAVOY: 20, I’m sorry. 20 and 26.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: 20 and 26. Thank you. So may I then mark that exhibit 83 with – and you will remove those documents; is that what will - - -

MR McAVOY: That’s correct.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. Exhibit 83 then. Thank you.


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EXHIBIT #83 DOCUMENTS FROM NORTHERN TERRITORY RESPONSIVE TENDER BUNDLE

MS BROWNHILL: Consistently the other bundles, Commissioner, that includes the matters for cross-examination.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you

MR McAVOY: Unless there are any other applications from the bar table, Commissioner, I would seek leave then to leave the bar table and attend on the witness.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: And take your part of the bar table, notionally, with you to another place.

MR McAVOY: Yes.

MS BROWNHILL: Can I just seek some clarity about the manner of giving evidence. My learned friend referred to a pseudonym and referred to the witness being in the AVL room, but as I understand it – please correct me if I am wrong – his evidence will be live streamed on the website and the transcript will be publicly available.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: That’s how I understood it.

MR McAVOY: That’s correct. So the only restriction on this witness will be the use of a pseudonym, and the fact that, I suppose, that he is in a remote room.

MS BROWNHILL: And we would press for the same constraints that operated in relation to Mr Turner’s evidence, so that if there is a – the name of an officer other than the officers we understand who are the subject of summonses to appear and the like, any other officers’ names shouldn’t be identified and there will be the usual stopping of the broadcast.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I’m presuming that’s – well, that will be the case if it’s an officer about whom there could be adverse findings.

MS BROWNHILL: Well - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I mean, just the mere naming of a person who was in a group about whom nothing adverse is said surely can’t be a cause for anxiety, Ms Brownhill.

MS BROWNHILL: Well, Commissioners, to do so, we say, is an interference with an officer’s privacy. That is to say that an occupation that they have or held at a particular point in time and their name be publicly announced on website or


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wherever, is an interference with their privacy. and is not necessary for the purposes of the Commission’s work and process. So we don’t presently accept that anyone who is mentioned in any document should just freely be named and identified in that way

MR McAVOY: Commissioner, it’s our view that to try and restrict all of the names that might be mentioned in the hundreds of thousands of pages of material and countless hours of evidence is an unnecessary and onerous burden on the Commission in terms of doing the work it has to do. Every attempt will be made to ensure that witnesses whose – against whom some adverse comment might be seen to have been made are not mentioned, and we have measures to rectify that if that happens, but it’s my submission that the step the solicitor is asking for – and it’s a matter that arose yesterday – is a step too far.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. Ms Brownhill, we think that it’s practically impossible. Looking through the statements, dozens of people are mentioned who work in the Northern Territory Government or in the private sector who have got some interest in policy and so on. It just seems to be a very difficult management tool and not really required. People are not – people work at what they do. I find it difficult to accept your submission that this is an invasion of their privacy unless there is some other aspect to it. Of course, I think everyone will be cautious – of course I think everyone will be caution not to just state names if it’s unnecessary to do so, but they will come up from time to time, and unless there is an adverse implication from the naming then I think we just have to take it as it comes.

MS BROWNHILL: Yes, Commissioners.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. Alright.

MR McAVOY: In the absence of anything else arising, Commissioner, I seek leave to attend in the - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Thank you, Mr McAvoy. And, being there, you will be more alert to the issues raised by Ms Brownhill in terms of adverse comments.

MR McAVOY: Certainly. And I can indicate, if it’s any comfort to the Solicitor, that I have prepared the witness on the basis that he should attempt to avoid naming people who I don’t direct him to name. So hopefully it will be without event.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. And he – it does seem a little strange to refer to somebody by – it does seem a little strange to refer to somebody by the initials, particularly for the administering of the affirmation, but I take it he’s prepared for that

MR McAVOY: Yes, he is.


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COMMISSIONER WHITE: Alright. Thank you. We will wait for you to appear on our screen.

MR McAVOY: As I say, Mr Brady will remain in court, and if anything needs to be attended to in court he will be able to attend to that.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you.

MR McAVOY: I am in the remote room and I’m just interested to ensure that I can be heard in the hearing room.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Very clear. Thank you, Mr McAvoy.

MR McAVOY: Commissioners, in the room presently with me are BY, his father who I can’t name as his support person, and one of his legal representatives, Elise Johnson, and some – Commission staff member Tara Tottenham, and I propose to proceed with evidence from BY and I formally call him to give evidence in these proceedings.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Thanks, Mr McAvoy. Is the visual and audio satisfactory in your room?

MR McAVOY: It is.


<BY, AFFIRMED [10.27 am]

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. Thanks, Mr McAvoy.

MR McAVOY: Thank you, Commissioner. And if at any point the witness’s voice drops a bit low, if I could be advised and perhaps we could move the microphone a bit closer to him. I understand that I might speak a little bit louder than the witness.


<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR McAVOY [10.28 am]

MR McAVOY: Now, you have prepared a statement for the Royal Commission, yes?---Yes.

And you’ve seen that statement?---Yes.

.ROYAL COMMISSION 16.3.17 P-1191 BY XN©Commonwealth of Australia MR McAVOY

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And could the statement be shown on the screen, if that’s possible.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Perhaps we don’t need to do that.

MR McAVOY: No, it’s not.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Here it is. Yes, it’s on the screen. Thanks, Mr McAvoy. Underneath.

MR McAVOY: Thank you.

And the statement – you recognise that document?---Yes.

And that’s your signature that appears at the bottom?---Yes.

And if you can just have a look at the other pages and satisfy yourself that’s your signature?---Yes.

On the last page?---Yes.

Okay. And the date of that statement is 21 February 2017. It’s on the front?---Yes.

And that statement is true and correct to the best of your knowledge?---Yes.

Commissioners, I tender the statement of the witness known as BY.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Exhibit 84.

MR McAVOY: Dated 21 February.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Exhibit 84. Thank you.

EXHIBIT #84 STATEMENT OF THE WITNESS KNOWN AS BY DATED 21/2/2017

MR McAVOY: Thank you.

Now BY, I’ve explained to you that we are going to use a pseudonym, the initials BY, to refer to you. Yes?---Yes.

And we need to be careful not to say the names of certain other people. And you understand that, don’t you?---Yes.


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The Commissioners have read your statement, so I just want you to tell them some parts of your story, and I’m going to take you to those. Okay. Are you comfortable to do that?---Yes.

Okay. Well, firstly, I would just like you to talk about where you grew up, and your family, but without mentioning the peoples’ names?---Yes. I grew up here in Alice Springs all my life. I live with my parents. They both work. And I live with other siblings, brothers and sisters. Yes.

And when you were about 12 or 13 you started attending at a place called the Gap Centre?---Yes.

Was that the age when you started going there?---Yes. Around 12, 13.

And what was the Gap centre?---I used to go there after school and stuff.

And what did you do there?---Played computer games, played basketball, and snooker.

And how many kids would go there in an afternoon?---A heap used to go.

10, 20?---20 or more.

20 or more?---Yes.

Okay. And do you remember that around that time the Gap Centre closed?---Yes, it closed after a few years of me going there.

And what effect did that have for you?---We had nowhere to go, so we started hanging around the streets.

Did you?---Yes.

Who did you hang around the streets with?---Mates.

Yes. So the same mates that you used to hang around at the Gap Centre with?---Yes.

And you had nowhere else to go after the Gap Centre closed?---No.

So it was one of these occasions when you were out with your friends that you first got in trouble with the police?---Yes.

And do you remember whether you were sent to some counselling for that?---Yes, I done juvenile diversion and part of that was to go see a counsellor, but it really didn’t help.


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Why not?---Because it was just talking about bullying and it didn’t really suit what I was charged with.

And it was about something different to what you were in trouble for; is that what you’re saying?---Yes.

And you didn’t need to hear – be counselled about bullying?---No.

So did you stop going?---Yes, I stopped going.

And what happened when you stopped going to the counselling?---I was breached.

You were breached?---Yes.

And by that, you mean you had the conditions of your bail or diversion breached?---Yes.

You were taken back to court?---Yes, and I had more different charges.

More – and there were more charges?---Yes.

So what happened then?---I went to court for the new charges and the old one lot I was originally on diversion for, and then I was given a 12 months good behaviour bond.

And how did that go?---I done my behaviour bond for about six months and I breached.

And what happened then?---I got sent to Don Dale detention centre.

So did you go straight to Don Dale?---I was on bail for other charges at that time, and then I got more charges and then got sent to Don Dale.

So how old were you when you went to Don Dale, do you remember?---I was still 14 at the time, turning 15.

When you – can you remember when you first went to Don Dale? The first time you went there, can you remember that?---Yes.

Do you remember where the – any of the guards told you about the rules in Don Dale?---No. I had to ask other detainees who was – in the detention centre at the time and about the rules and about the classifications.

Did you – were you given a booklet or anything to tell you what the rules were?---No.


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And do you know what colour shirt you were wearing when you were put in first?---I was wearing an orange shirt.

And did you understand, when you were given the orange shirt, why you were given an orange shirt?---No.

So how did you figure that out?---I was asking around.

Asking around to who?---To the other detainees what the different colour shirts meant.

When you first arrived at Don Dale, that first time, do you remember being asked questions about your health?---Not really. I just got a blood test taken and that was it.

But you saw a nurse?---Yes.

Do you remember what the results of that blood test were?---No, I never heard back.

Can you just tell the Commissioners – you can see them on the screen?---Yes.

Can you tell them what sort of your daily routine was when you were at Don Dale?---In the morning we would get woken up, we will have a shower, get locked back in our rooms until everyone is finished, then we will have breakfast, then we go back to our room for a bit and then we will go off to school, and that starts about 8.30. Then we go to school until 10.30, then we have morning tea for half an hour. Then we go back to school until 12.30 and we go back out and have lunch. Then, after lunch is finished, we will go back until 3 o’clock. And then sometimes we get lockdown for about an hour and then we just play sports and watch TV till 8.30. Then we get lockdown.

And that’s – the lockdown at about 3 was for the change of shift?---Yes.

And the ..... time that you wouldn’t be able to go back out and have some recreation time or watch TV after that was dependent upon your classification?---Yes. Because if you was a high security you would get locked down straight after dinner, and then if you was medium or whatever you will get a lockdown at about 8.30.

So high security, what colour shirt would they wear?---Red.

And medium?---Was orange.

And what was low classification?---Low 1 was green and low 2 was blue.

Now, you were just talking about when you went to school at Don Dale?---Yes.


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How was that?---I didn’t find it real helpful, because it was working out of booklets most of the time.

And what do you mean – when you say working out of booklets, what does that mean?---It was easy, didn’t really learn much, and they had the answers at the back, so I used to cheat a lot.

And did all the kids have the same booklets or did they have different booklets for different kids?---I think we all had different.

All had different?---Yes.

And do you remember a teacher at Don Dale named John?---Yes.

What do you remember about John?---He was a good teacher. He listened to us. Yes.

And John was a Fijian man?---Yes.

And so you thought he was good because he listened to you. Did you find that some of the other teachers didn’t listen to you?---Yes. They wouldn’t listen to us.

What was it like at night at Don Dale?---It was very boring, because we had no TVs or nothing. They let us listen to radios through the intercom for about an hour, and then they would turn it off and then you’re bored again.

So what would you do?---Just pace up and down in the room, ..... thinking about what I’m going to do when I get out.

You say “overthinking”?---Yes.

What do you mean by that?---Like constantly thinking, not relaxing.

And did – so that made you feel?---Very stressed, angry, most of the time.

So you’re saying after dinner when the – when you were put back into your rooms you were walking up and down in your room feeling stressed and angry?---Yes.

And thinking too much about things?---Yes. Thinking about family as well.

What were you thinking about your family?---Missing them, being so far away from them.

So you were then – when you were released from Don Dale, you went back to Alice Springs?---Yes.

You were happy to see your family, obviously?---Yes.


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But at some point you started going back out again at night?---Yes.

How long ago – how long after you got back to Alice Springs was that?---A few months. Started hanging around streets again, getting in trouble.

And you’ve covered in your statement what you did to get in trouble. You ended up getting arrested by the police?---Yes.

And where did you – where were you taken then?---To a watch-house.

Yes. And after the watch-house?---I went through Court, next day. Then I was remanded for about a week or so.

In custody?---Yes.

And where did you spend that week in custody?---In the holding centre.

In the holding centre. Does the holding centre have another name?---Aranda House.

Aranda House. And, after that week, what happened?---I got sentenced and I had to go back to Don Dale for three months.

And while you were at Don Dale this time, you got the chance to do a cooking course; is that right?---Yes.

You liked the cooking course?---Yes, it was good.

What was good about it?---I learned some stuff I didn’t know about fish, how to fillet fish and whatever.

So just learning about cooking. You found that pretty interesting?---Yes.

And so you enjoyed that course?---Yes.

Do you think that the other boys, the other detainees, enjoyed that – doing that course as well?---Yes. We all did at that time.

Did you get to finish that course?---No.

Why not?---Because I went down to the back cells and I was kicked out of the course.

And can you remember now what you went to the back cells for?---I think it was just for kicking the door.

So you did something minor; is that your memory?---Yes.


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And you – and you went to the back cells?---Yes.

And because you were in the back cells you weren’t allowed to do the cooking course?---Yes. Because we had to be on medium or low, it wasn’t allowed to be high security.

Okay. And at some point you were transferred back to Alice Springs, the new youth detention centre?---Yes.

Was it good to be back in Alice Springs?---Yes.

Did it make a difference in terms of how often you could have visits from your family?---Yes. It made it better to get visits from my family. I was getting visits twice a week.

Twice a week?---Yes.

So different people would come, or was it the same people twice a week?---Same people twice a week, but they used to bring extra people. Yes.

Right. Can you tell me about the incident that you refer to in your statement about when your fan broke in the cell?---Yes, we got a lockdown because one day the inmates was going off. So we got a lockdown, and I went to go turn my fan off, and it fell off hook, and they said I broke it on purpose and I was taken down the back.

Down the back. You mean to the back cells?---Yes, down to the back cells.

Can you describe what the back cells were like when you went there?---It was real small. There was a window to look out, and there was a window out the door, and a little – like a little vent next to the door. And most of the time they used to cover the window up with a piece of paper so we couldn’t see out.

And did – were you sharing a cell with somebody else?---No. I was by myself.

And were there other people in the back cells?---Yes. There was one other person.

And was that a person that you could talk to?---Yes.

And that was – did you talk to other people while you were down there?---No, not really, because the back cells was away from the other rooms.

So you only had the other person who was in another cell?---Yes.

Did the guards talk to you much when they came to see you?---No. They just let us out for a shower and that was it. Toilet.


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Do you remember how long you were in the back cells?---I was there for about a month or so.

And were you told how long you were going to be there?---No, every time I asked they just said, “Your guess is better than mine.”

And this is because of the fan that was broken in your room?---Yes.

How did you feel about being locked up in the back cells for that that length of time?---Very angry, stressed.

You were still able to have visits with your family?---Yes.

Were there any changes to how long you could have the visits for because you were in the back cells?---No.

Okay. Sometime later, during that sentence, do you recall being asked whether you volunteered to transfer to Don Dale Youth Detention Centre?---Yes.

Do you recall that?---Yes.

You referred to it in your statement, but can you just tell the Commissioners what you were told?---They sat all the detainees down in the rec room or the class at that time. They told us that the detention centre in Alice Springs was overcrowded and they asked for volunteers to go up and no one put their hand up at that time. Then after that they made it loud and clear whoever had the longest sentence would be going to Don Dale, and I had the longest sentence at that time, so I put my hand up and I was only told that it was going to be for two to four weeks, but it ended up being about 9 to 10 months.

Was the Alice Springs Youth Detention Centre overcrowded? Did you think it was overcrowded at that time?---Yes.

And would you have put your hand up if you had known that it was going to be longer than four weeks that you would be at Don Dale?---No.

Why did you want to stay at Alice Springs?---So I can get visits from my family.

Did – at the time did you have family that lived in Darwin?---Yes, but didn’t get visits.

They are not the sort of family that come and visit you?---No.

You didn’t expect them to visit you?---No.

Did they visit you the last time you were in Don Dale?---No.


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Okay. When you were taken to Don Dale how often could your family then visit you once you were there, your family in Alice Springs?---They came up a few times, but it was pretty hard for them to come up because of work and my other brothers and sisters were still going to school.

So they – members of your family, though, did come up and visit you a few times before Christmas that year?---Yes.

You can’t remember how many times?---Probably no more than five times.

I just want to ask you some questions now about an incident involving one other detainee and Dylan Voller. I don’t want you to mention the other detainee’s name, but do you know about that incident? It’s referred to in your statement?---Yes.

Can you tell me, with respect to that incident, where the other detainee was picking on Dylan Voller - - -?---Yes, they had an argument or something and the officers dragged Dylan out. And while they was dragging Dylan out of the school the other detainee got up and punched him, and I didn’t really like it that much, so I got up and I hit him.

You punched him?---Yes.

Punched the other detainee?---Yes.

Why did you do that?---Because he could have had the chance to do it when Dylan wasn’t getting held from the youth worker.

So it was unfair?---Yes.

And so you thought you would let him know that you thought it was unfair?---Yes. Plus he was bigger than Dylan at the time, too.

Do you know if that detainee that you punched got hurt?---Yes, I think he did.

Do you recall whereabouts?---On the, like, cheek, sort of thing. Yes. It was all swollen, but I don’t know if he – what kind of injuries he sustained.

Did you get charged with any offence?---No.

Did you get sent to the back cells at Don Dale?---Yes, I was sent to the back cells for 72 hours, and plus another two days on top.

Do you remember – can you tell the Commissioners what the back cells at Don Dale were like?---They was real narrow, just had a cement slab, had a toilet in there, stunk like piss. You could smell the sewerage. It was very hot.

Very hot?---Yes.


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Was there any ventilation?---No. There was two little fans at the front, but didn’t really do much.

So there was no air moving around?---No.

And you said it “stunk like piss”. So is that inside the cell?---Yes, and through the drains. You could smell it through the draining.

What could you smell through the drain?---You could smell – like sewerage, like shit.

How – did it smell like that all the time?---Yes. But when it rained, wet season time, it was even worser.

So it was stronger?---Yes.

Were you worried about staying in a cell where you could smell those sorts of smells all the time?---Yes, it was – I wanted to hurry up and get out, because I was getting a lot of headaches from the smell.

That incident happened near Christmas in 2011; do you remember that?---Yes.

Do you remember that there were arrangements for you to go back to Alice Springs and visit your family that year at Christmas?---Yes.

What happened as – what happened to those arrangements?---Because of the incident, what happened when I hit the other detainee, they cancelled my flight

Were you told that straight away?---No. I was told about two days before I was meant to leave, or a day before I was meant to leave.

So during that time you were wondering whether and when you were going to go back to Alice Springs. You were still expecting to go?---Yes, I was still expecting to go, but then, yes, they came in and told me. I was asking if I was still going down and then Michael Yaxley came down and told me that my flight was cancelled.

Did that upset you?---Yes.

Why – I mean, it’s obvious you will be upset about not seeing your family at Christmas, but was there an additional reason or anything?---Yes.

Was it particularly bad for you?---Yes, because I spent the Christmas in 2010 up in Darwin and I wanted to go back and see my family for Christmas and I was looking forward.

So that was going to be your second Christmas away from family?---Yes.


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Now, do you remember Christmas night that year?---Yes.

When the alarms went off?---Yes.

Fire alarms?---Yes.

You’ve talked about what happened in your statement. Can you just tell the Commissioners briefly what happened that night?---We got taken out to the basketball courts because the fire alarms went off, and there was a bit of a deal or something going on, and Dylan Voller jumped in the pool and then a lot of other detainees followed behind, and I followed, and we started smashing stuff up, and I assaulted Michael Yaxley – I was still a bit angry about him cancelling my flight.

And when this happened were you still angry about not going back to home for Christmas?---Yes.

Were you charged with any offences as a result of that event that night?---Yes, I was charged with damaging property and assault, aggravated assault.

And those charges were dealt with?---Yes.

And what was the result of those charges?---I got three months concurrent with my normal sentence.

And do you remember that a couple of days after that event you were taken to the adult prison?---Yes.

How old were you then?---I was 17 at the time.

Can you just explain what happened when you were taken to the adult prison?---First they came and stripped out the cells. They took us out two by two, because there was two people in each cell, and then they came back and said that there was three detainees was going to the adults prison, and I sort of guessed that I was one of them. Then they took the first one out and put him in the bus and then they came back and handcuffed me and put me in the bus and they took two of us to the adult prison, and he was sent to one block and I was sent to the other. And then a few days later they came back to take me to a different block and they put a spit mask on me, and they didn’t warn me at the time, so I freaked out a bit and asked what was going on. They apologised and said, “We should have let you know that we was putting the spit mask on.” Then they moved me to a different block and then I was there for another few days, and I was stressed out a bit, and I started punching the wall. And I asked to see the medical and a nurse came down and checked my hand out and she said that I needed to go up to the clinic. And one of the prison officers was there at the time said, “Fuck him, that’s his problem. If he wants to punch walls, he can just stay there.” Then they walked off.


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Yes?---And I was there for about five days and I only had two showers the whole time I was there.

If I can just take you back a little bit. You said that there were three detainees that were taken to the adult prison?---Yes.

You were – you said you were put in one block - - -?---Yes.

- - - and others were put in another block?---Yes. The other – the third detainee came a day or two after we left.

Right. Were you then in a block in the adult prison, the old adult prison - - -?---Yes.

- - - on your own?---Yes, I was in the cell. They didn’t let me come out for any sort of exercising.

So there was nobody in any other cells?---There was other prisoners in the other cells.

And the – adult prisoners or juvenile prisoners?---Adult prisoners.

Now, how did you feel being in there with the adults?---I was freaking out a bit. Didn’t know what they was in there for. They could have been, you know, dangerous people at that time. Bit scared.

Yes. Did – were you told by anybody what was going on, how long you would be there?---No. I was – first I was only told that I was going to be there for 24 hours, but then days kept going by and I was wondering why, asking the adult prison guards, but they didn’t – they didn’t know at the time either.

And were you allowed to go out and have any exercise while were you there?---No. The only times I left was to go to medical or change blocks or for the two showers I was there.

You talked about having a mask put over your head?---Yes.

You never had that before?---No.

Did you know what they were doing?---No.

Did you know it was a spit hood?---No.

Had you ever seen anybody wear a spit hood before?---No.

Had you ever been – had you ever spat on any guards?---No.


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Do you remember an incident shortly after Christmas that year, it must have been around the time that you were taken to the adult prison or returned, where you and another inmate went outside?---Yes.

I don’t want you to say the other inmate’s name, but I would just like you to describe for me what happened?---I came back from Court and everyone was having dinner in the dining room. We had dinner and they locked us down straight after, or they was going to lock us down straight after, and I asked if I could have a shower before I go to lock down because I was at Court all day and felt dirty because, of course, I was a bit dirty, filthy, and they said no. So I refused to go to lockdown, and there were some other detainees refusing to go to lockdown as well, and then all the guards was called up and when they opened the dining room door me and another detainee ran outside.

So outside the building, but still inside the outer fence of Don Dale?---Yes. We was just in the basketball court area.

And the guards chased you?---Yes, and they grabbed – they tackled and handcuffed the other detainee and took him to the back cell and they came back and did that to me, twisted my arm behind my back, hurt my shoulder, and I was taken and I was put in the cell. And then another detainee sprayed a fire extinguisher into the back cell.

Can I just ask you: do you remember when you were put back in that cell, in the cell when you came from the outside area, did you go to a cell on your own or with somebody else?---I was on my own.

Okay. And then, when you went back to your cell, something happened with a fire extinguisher?---Yes.

And can you just explain what that was like?---We couldn’t breathe. Couldn’t see, like 10 centimetres in front of us.

So somebody – one of the detainees?---Yes. He sprayed the fire extinguisher.

He got a fire extinguisher from somewhere. Do you know where he got it from?---No.

No. And it was being sprayed?---Yes.

And this is in the back cells or on in the main prison?---In the back cells.

Back cells. And what was the effect in your cell?---Couldn’t see more than 10 centimetres in front of me; I couldn’t breathe; I had to make my shirt off and curl up in the corner because I couldn’t breathe. And I was yelling out, “Stop spraying the fire extinguisher.”


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And why did you take your shirt off?---To cover my face so I can breathe a little bit better.

Did that help?---No, not really.

And at some point some guard as arrived?---Yes, the Berrimah guards rocked up.

So that’s the adult prison guards came?---Yes. And they took us out one by one. They asked us to put our hands through the hatch, they handcuffed us, and we had to walk out of the door while they opened it. And one guard grabbed my arms and the other one was standing sort of behind me, put his arm around my neck, like in a head lock. Then when I got out into the basketball court area, I think I fainted, dropped to the ground. And then they picked me up and they handcuffed me to the fence.

So when you say you think you fainted, you’re not sure?---Yes. I’m not sure, I just remember being picked up off the ground.

You were faint and you were on the ground at some point?---Yes.

Didn’t know how you got there?---No.

Okay. And you were taken to the fence, that’s the outer fence of Don Dale?---Yes.

And you were handcuffed?---Yes. I was handcuffed over our head, like our arms were sort of over our head.

Attached to your statement is a diagram that you’ve drawn. The diagram, can the Commissioners see the diagram?

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes, thank you.

MR McAVOY: Okay. Thank you.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: It’s attached to his statement.

MR McAVOY: Now, looking at the diagram, there is a – there is a figure that’s drawn?---Yes.

Is the figure facing towards us or facing away from us?---Facing away from us.

Okay. And there is a line sort of towards the top of the page; what’s that line?---It’s just like sort of the top of the fence.

It’s the top of the fence. And the fence runs down in front of the face of the figure?---Yes.

So the figure is facing the fence; is that correct?---Yes.


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And the figure’s left arm is raised in the air; is that the way that you meant to draw it?---Yes.

And there is two small circles there at the end of the arm of the figure?---Yes. That’s handcuffs, meant to be handcuffs.

And if you look closely, there is a little dotted line there. And so the handcuff, the top handcuff, is that attached to the fence?---Yes.

So what sort of fence was it?---It’s like a sort of big fence, got a cement slab, it’s got some little bars through it, and then it’s got a big sheet of iron and a big circling on top.

And there was a part of the fence that the handcuff could be attached to?---Yes.

And so was your – was – I take it – who is that a drawing of?---Me.

That’s you?---Yes.

And so your arm was raised in the air in the handcuff?---Yes.

How long did you think you were there in that position for?---For about hour, an hour and a half.

Did it - - -?---Or even longer.

Was it uncomfortable?---Yes. I had a sore arm, all the blood was rushing down, like getting pins and needles.

Did you ask to be let out?---Yes.

And what happened?---They just ignored us.

How long were you outside, about an hour; is that it?---Yes, probably even longer.

And then you were taken back to your cell after the fire brigade left?---Yes.

And what condition was your cell in?---It was all wet. There was no mattress in there, it was just all wet. And, yes, they just chucked us in there. We only had our shorts and jocks.

So the floor of the cell was wet?---Yes.

The area where the mattress sits was wet?---Yes.

There was no mattress?---Yes.


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You had shorts to wear?---I had to take my jocks off to dry the cement slab so I can lay down.

Somewhere to lay down in the dry?---Yes.

So you took your shorts off and then your jocks, and then you put your shorts back on?---Yes.

And then you used your jocks to wipe up the floor?---Yes.

Do you remember – sorry?---And we had no mattress, or bedding for 24 hours. We had to sleep on the cement until the next afternoon, till they gave us our bedding.

But it wasn’t you that had the fire extinguisher – that set off the fire extinguisher, was it?---No. There was a few other detainees that was there as well, and they had no mattress or bedding as well.

Did you feel as though you were being punished for something that somebody else had done?---Yes.

Was that unusual?---No.

Was this event before or after you went to the adult prison?---After.

And it was around this time that you hurt your shoulder?---Yes.

Do you remember how you hurt it?---When the youth worker twisted my arm behind my back. Yes.

Can you remember asking to see the nurse?---Yes. I was asking for about two months to see a nurse.

And what happened?---I finally seen one after two months, and all that happened is I went to the Palmerston Clinic and got an ultrasound on my shoulder and I never heard back from the results.

And so that – do you remember what month it was that you went to the clinic?---No, I’m not too sure.

If I said it was in June 2012; does that sound right?---Yes, probably.

So that means it was probably a few months after, almost six months after the incident where you were – where you hurt your shoulder. You said earlier you hurt your shoulder; does that sound right?---Yes.

Right. They are all the questions I have for you now. Your lawyer may have some questions, and he will have to ask the Commissioners about that if he does, but they


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are all the questions I have for you now. Unless the Commissioners have some other questions for you, that’s the evidence-in-chief, Commissioners.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Thanks, Mr McAvoy.

Perhaps BY, there are some other lawyers who want to ask questions who are in the main room of the Commission hearing. So they will come one by one up to the lectern and you will respond to their questions as best you can. Thank you. Who is going to take the first questions then? Nobody?

MR TIERNEY: I appear for BY.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Well, it looks as though perhaps nobody is going to be asking you questions, although your own lawyer might do so. Thank you.

MR TIERNEY: Commissioners, I should just say that I intend to ask BY some questions about his time at Don Dale. The period with which he was just dealing, that’s the period of months over 2011 and 2012. BY, can you - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I do hope that you don’t traverse that which we have already had taken out. I mean, there’s a lot in the statement, and then that’s been revisited again in the oral examination. So you won’t be doing it for a third time, will you?

MR TIERNEY: No, I won’t. If I can just ask perhaps, Commissioners, if you look at paragraph 20 of exhibit 84, you will see that it describes some schooling, a daily routine. I’ve taken some instructions and there is some difference between that. I wouldn’t want that to be left as a description of each of the periods where the BY spent at Don Dale.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Alright then. Yes, do clarify it then. Thank you.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TIERNEY [11.10 am]

MR TIERNEY: BY, can you hear me?---Yes.

I take it you can’t see me; is that correct?---I can see you.

Good. Do you recognise me as Peter Tierney?---Yes.

I want to ask you some questions, BY – I’m sorry I am using that name, it probably feels a bit funny, but I want to ask you some questions about the time you spent at Don Dale during 2011 and 2012?---Yes.

.ROYAL COMMISSION 16.3.17 P-1208 BY XXN©Commonwealth of Australia MR TIERNEY

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Now, during that time you – did you go to school during the period – that period?---Only for a little while.

What happened?---I was kicked out of the school.

Alright?---And I was put on – I was put on a work program.

How was that arranged? Was that something you asked to do or were you asked to do it or was that something you were told to do?---We had to do it if we didn’t go to school.

Can you tell the Commissioners what the work program involved?---I was doing a lot of gardening and stuff, mowing the lawns, painting. Just whatever needed to be done around the place.

And did you receive any pay for doing that work?---Yes, a bit.

Was there a particular rate of pay that you were told about for doing work?---Yes, if – depending on your behaviour you get 20 cents, 50 Cents or 70 cents. But most of the day I got 70 cents, so I made about $3-something a day.

And did you get some or all of that money for the work that you did?---Yes. I used to save it up so I can buy stuff.

Do you – are you able to recall now, BY, how much in total you would have earned over that period that you were at Don Dale doing the work?---Doing that work and saving up, I probably made about two to $300.

And did you receive all of that money?---I spent some of it on buying clothes and hats, but the rest basically got taken off me when I went down the back.

Do you know how much was taken off you when you went down the back?---About 100 and something.

To this day have you ever received that money?---No.

Were there days during that period, this is after you got kicked out of school but you were still at Don Dale, when you didn’t work?---Yes. If I didn’t work I would be locked in my room until morning tea and lunch I would be allowed out.

And what about after lunch? You would be let out for - - -?---I would be locked down again until – I would get locked down again after lunch until school was finished and lockdown is finished and we do what we’ve got to do in the afternoon.

Alright. So those days when you weren’t in school and you weren’t working, how much time do you estimate that you spent out of your cell?---Probably about six hours out of the cell.

.ROYAL COMMISSION 16.3.17 P-1209 BY XXN©Commonwealth of Australia MR TIERNEY

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Yes. Thank you?---Probably not even that.

Thank you, BY. Thank you Commissioners, that’s the additional evidence.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Mr Tierney.

MR McAVOY: Commissioners, there’s –

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Just a moment, Mr McAvoy. Just a moment. Commissioner Gooda wants to ask a question.

COMMISSIONER GOODA: BY, in both paragraph 19 and 20 you talk about your eyesight and you say you didn’t get any testing when you went into Don Dale; is that right?---Yes.

What about your hearing, same with your hearing?---I can hear pretty well.

No, I’m saying was your hearing tested at all?---No.

[REDACTED INFORMATION]Okay. Thank you?---Thanks.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Mr McAvoy.

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR McAVOY [11.15 am]

MR McAVOY: Commissioner, there are two matters I need to deal with. I’m sorry, one is a matter I omitted to take the witness to in-chief, and the other is re-examination.

Can you remember an incident where you were taken to a cell where there was another detainee in there and there was a spitting incident. Can you remember that?---Yes.

Can you just describe what happened on that occasion without naming the other detainee?---I was let out for a shower and a 15 minute phone call, and then we got

.ROYAL COMMISSION 16.3.17 P-1210 BY RXN©Commonwealth of Australia MR McAVOY

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into an argument with the superintendent at the time and a few other youth workers. And then the ..... came and took us down the back one by one and when I got put back in the cell one of the other detainees spat on the prison officer

And it wasn’t you?---Yes, it wasn’t me.

And the cells in the back that you’re talking about, that particular cell on that occasion - - -?---Yes.

- - - the door of that cell – can you describe the door?---If you were looking at it from the inside, it’s a mesh, like a security screen mesh sort of thing, and there is bars on the other side of that.

So you can’t see straight through?---You can, but it’s real small.

Can you – will spit travel through that mesh?---No. It will get all – thing on the security screen.

It will be stopped by the security screen?---Yes.

Okay. And I suggested to you before that the time at which you talked about you injuring your shoulder was around the Christmas time but, in fact, does it sound correct that that was around May 2012, and then it – you said it took about two months to get to the medical?---Yes. It might have been about May I got hurt, actually.

That’s it from this witness, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks Mr McAvoy.

Thank you, BY, for your assistance to the Commission. We have now finished hearing from you and the connection will be terminated?---Yes. Thanks.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.18 am]

COMMISSIONER GOODA: Thank you.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I think in view of the time, and that we have got a bit of changeover to do, we might take the midmorning break now so that we don’t disrupt the next witness’ evidence. So we will resume at 20 to 12. Thank you.

MS BROWNHILL: Can I just confirm whether the next witness will be CA or whether the next witness will be the panel of people who were to start at 11?

MR BRADY: May it please the court. May it please the Commission, Brady.


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COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes, Mr Brady. What is to happen next?

MR BRADY: The next witness is CA.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: So we are holding the panel up?

MR BRADY: I believe so.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Alright. Well, you just might note to your counsel the time when he comes in. Thank you. Could you adjourn, thank you.

ADJOURNED [11.19 am]

RESUMED [11.43 am]

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Mr McAvoy.

MR McAVOY: Thank you Commissioners. The next witness to be called is the grandmother of the last witness, BY. She is present in court and in order to preserve the anonymity of the last witness it is proposed she give her evidence according to her existing ascribed pseudonym, which is CA. I have had a conference with the witness and she is happy to do it in that fashion. I haven’t received any complaints from the bar table about that proposal. She is happy to give evidence in court and, unless there are any objections, I call CA to give evidence.


<CA, AFFIRMED [11.44 am]

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you very much. Would you kindly be seated now.

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR McAVOY [11.44 am]

MR McAVOY: Thank you. Could the witness be shown her statement on the screen, please.

Now, you understand that you will be referred to as CA throughout this. When I’m referring to your grandson, I will call him your grandson. And when referring to your grandson’s father, if I need to do that, I will refer to him as your son?---Okay.

.ROYAL COMMISSION 16.3.17 P-1212 CA XN©Commonwealth of Australia MR McAVOY

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Thank you. Now, can you see the witness statement in front of you?---Yes.

If you look down the bottom. Can you have a read of that statement. Does that look as though it is the statement that you filled in, with areas blacked out to protect your name?---Yes.

And is that statement – you’ve got a copy of that statement on the table with you?---Yes.

And is that statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge?---Yes.

Thank you I tender the statement of CA, Commissioner.


EXHIBIT #85 STATEMENT OF CA

MR McAVOY: Thank you. Commissioner, I also tender the responsive tender bundle from the solicitor from the Northern Territory, which is tendered in total except for tab B.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Thank you.

MS BROWNHILL: I don’t know what tab B is.

MR McAVOY: Sorry, tab 11. Sorry – I’m sorry.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. Exhibit 86.

EXHIBIT #86 RESPONSIVE TENDER BUNDLE TO CA FROM NORTHERN TERRITORY EXCLUDING TAB 11

MR McAVOY: Now, I’m just going to ask you some questions about yourself and your relationship with your grandson. He is your eldest grandson?---Yes, he is.

How many grandchildren do you have?---I have 14 grandchildren.

And you live in – you have lived in Alice Springs?---I’m a local Alice Springs girl.

Yes. And your family come from around the Alice Springs area?---Yes.

Your traditional country is where?---Here in Alice Springs and up near Barra Creek, my mother’s country.


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Your mother’s country. And the name of the traditional people for that country?---Is Kaytetye.

Thank you. Now, is your family a close family?---Yes, it is.

And have you been able to spend a lot of time with your children and grandchildren as they have been growing up?---Yes.

And so when your grandson started getting in trouble with police, how did that effect you?---It was a scary moment for us, and for me as his grandmother. I couldn’t get any answers from the police. I – it was the first time we know about – well, we didn’t know about – didn’t know the process of what to do if someone is in jail – in prison.

So you didn’t have to go through the process of courts or police or anything with your family for some time?---Well, I had to push my grandson’s mother, because she is non-Indigenous, and she would get answers. Whereas, you know, the attitude changed when I came to the police station to get – to find out things.

Yes. Did – you’ve had a role as a trainee in certain areas?---In certain areas, yes.

Can you just explain those areas?---I’m an assistant trainer, which is applied suicide intervention skills trainer. I’m a family wellbeing trainer. I worked – I worked around narrative stuff. I organised groups with mothers who lost their child from suicide. I organise groups around – for women who were sexually abused.

And you have been appointed to advisory committees?---I was on the Northern Territory’s Women’s Advisory Council and I also represented the Northern Territory women at the International Women’s Conference in Beijing, China. And with all the stuff that was happening there I brought back to Alice Springs and – helped holding many – like breakfasts and things, just to bring back what we – what was – what was talked about there, discussed – we brought it back home.

We’re – I’m just going to ask you a few questions about BY’s time in detention – I may – I just need to correct the record, Commissioner.

THE WITNESS: Grandson.

Your grandson’s time in detention. Could the – thank you.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Could the reference to the name be removed. Thank you. Yes, Mr McAvoy. If you could just go then, to those things directly, so that we can move on to the things we would really like to hear about from this witness.

MR McAVOY: Certainly. There is one matter I need to canvass with this witness. Are you aware of what programs your grandson did while he was in detention?---Yes.


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Do you accept that he may have done a number of programs which are in the Correctional Services records which you may not be aware of?---Can you rephrase that again?

Do you think – if I said to you that Correctional Services records show that he attended a number of programs and spoke to counsellors and was subject to a number of referrals, you wouldn’t be able to argue against that, would you, if it’s in the records?---Depending on what it was.

Yes. Okay. But you don’t know everything that he did while he was in - - -?---No.

Okay. Thank you. You wrote several letters on behalf of – on your own behalf and on behalf of your grandson’s mother?---Mmm.

And father?---Yes.

And you received some responses to those letters?---No.

No. None at all?---None at all.

But you did meetings - - -?---I did have meetings.

- - - as a result – as a result of those letters?---Yes.

Yes. Okay. What I would really like to hear from you about, at this point, is what observations you can make about how the system might be changed for the better for young people in detention?---If I had the chance, I would handpick people in this community. I would make sure there’s an assessment done, entry and exit. I would look at the educational level. Looking at goal setting for the youth. I would – I would love to have a mental health team made up of various people, like a mental health worker, a psychiatrist – you know, psychologist, counsellor, working for those children. I would have an Aboriginal support team as well.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: You’ve done a lot of counselling work. Have you ever participated in or known about elders visiting the young people in detention, on a regular basis in Alice Springs?---Not here – not here in Alice Springs, no.

Is that something that you think could be organised and would be successful?---Yes, and no. But as I know my community, I know that a lot of the elders are being utilised or used in other programs and it’s only, you know, a handful of elders that is kind of active around here.

So the resources might be stretched a bit?---Be stretched a bit, and have young men and young women who are multi-skilled, or train them up in various ways, because we do have a lot of young Aboriginal men and women who has that empathy and has those little checklists that I would like to make up a team of.


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I can see that – that they in fact may be able to talk to the young ones more readily?---Yes.

In their own language, as it were. Alright. Thank you.

MR McAVOY: Is there any reason that you say that the staff should be handpicked, from your own experience?---Yes. Because a lot of the people in the community is not properly trained. They might be trained in different areas, education is sky limited and we as adults – I had to go back to – to university and learnt new things, and sometimes they need to broaden their mind as well. Because we do come with – as a welfare worker, I worked with welfare work and I done child protection work investigations. I was also on the Alice Springs Child Protection Board and those skills that was – was gradually going back, learning, as an adult learning, you know, sort of thing. And yes. And there is only – are limited people in this community that I would be able to – to pick up and make a team. And the other reason, Tony, is that a lot of our people that’s working in the community are yes people, and sometimes they don’t speak for the children or for themselves. If they – if somebody in authority says, “You have to do this”, they say, “Yes” and they go off and do it. They have got to be a little bit of challenge within – with authority of their knowledge and skills. And as an Aboriginal person we have to balance – we work with statutory, mandatory reporting, so those things are a must. And we don’t allow that to be swept under the carpet. If it’s a family member in the community they may just let it go, and that’s wrong.

You’ve had some experience with the staff at Alice Springs Youth Detention Centre; as a trainer?---I did.

As a trainer?---Yes. I had – due to the amount of suicide happening in Australia, the Commonwealth Government looked at a package, and it came from Canada, and they came here to – all around Australia they went and done – train the trainer, and myself and my son became assist trainers, which is applied suicide intervention skill training. There were people from all sectors in the northern – in Alice Springs and we, as a team, got together and we targeted, you know, whether education, correctionals, non-government and government organisations, we did that. And I trained the Correctional Services workers.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Was that at the adult prison?---Yes – yes.

Was that at the adult prison?---And some of the – that has come here, who presented today, the other day.

So some from the youth centre as well?---Mmm.

What, in your extensive experience, are the major challenges that the community faces in keeping its young people out of the detention – youth justice and detention system? It’s a big question, I know?---I think putting them in that one box. They put all Aboriginal kids in one box, not looking at them as individuals. Like my


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grandson, for instance. You know, he comes from a very supportive family, but because he’s Aboriginal he – well, they assumed that he came from a broken home, a dysfunctional home, where his parents are good parents, they are both workers, home buyers, and credit to them. We kept our beliefs, the values and beliefs from my parents, grandparents. I shared that with my children and their children, and when I see my children respect somebody or do something, acknowledge an elder or help somebody, I know that my job was done because it was their parents who taught them, and it was an intergenerational learning. Values and beliefs.

Alright. So there will be some young people who obviously can be put on the path to rehabilitation with the help of supporting families, if that should be identified?---Of course.

But what about those whose families are not like yours, that aren’t able to give support to their young. How do you think that the authorities can manage that?---I think taking each case individually, talking to their parents, getting their parents involved, because that’s not – not respected. Grandparents, because the support for that child is the parents, grandparents and community, you know.

Thank you.

MR McAVOY: I have one further question for you. If the witness could be shown tab 1 of the responsive tender bundle, please. You’ve seen this before. I showed it to you before you gave evidence this morning. Do you recall?---Mmm.

And I confirm that it’s an extract from your grandson’s detention centre files, okay. And the reference CW is a reference to case worker?---Mmm.

And you’ve had the chance to read that?---Yes.

And you can see that it suggests that – or it says that you agreed that it would be good for BY to stay in Don Dale, but return to Alice for Christmas?---I did not.

You did not agree?---No.

So do you remember having any discussion with a case worker about that prospect of - - -?---No.

- - - BY staying in Don Dale and not returning to Alice in November of 2011. I know it’s a long time ago?---No.

You don’t recall or you say it didn’t happen?---No, it did not happen.

Okay. And do you recall having any discussion about encouraging your grandson to get a blue shirt and behave well so that he – and behave well?---No.


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COMMISSIONER WHITE: Well, if this witness denies that meeting occurred, then the rest will follow, won’t it?

MR McAVOY: It does. But I’m just being overly cautious, Commissioner.

Okay. They are the only questions I have for you. I thank you for taking the time to come and being around this week. I have no further questions for the witness Commissioner, unless - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Was there any applications for leave for CA? No.

MR McAVOY: It appears not.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: All right. Thank you.

MR McAVOY: She can be released.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Thank you very much for your assistance to the Commission. It’s much appreciated?---And I want to thank you for giving me that opportunity in coming.

Thank you. Good afternoon?---Okay.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.03 pm]

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Mr Goodwin. I think you are taking the next witnesses.

MR McAVOY: He is, Commissioners.

MR GOODWIN: I am, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Mr McAvoy.

MR GOODWIN: I call three witnesses: Marion Isobel Guppy, Brett McNair, and David Glyde.

<MARION ISOBEL GUPPY, AFFIRMED [12.06 pm]

<BRETT McNAIR, AFFIRMED [12.06 pm]

<DAVID GLYDE, AFFIRMED [12.06 pm]

.ROYAL COMMISSION 16.3.17 P-1218 GUPPY/McNAIR/GLYDE ©Commonwealth of Australia

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COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you very much. Please be seated. Now, you will see that you’ve got one microphone between the three. Our technical people will certainly let you know if they are not being able to record you clearly, but perhaps if you just swing it around depending on which of the wings is speaking at any time. Thanks, Mr Goodwin.

MR GOODWIN: Thank you, Commissioner. Ms Guppy, you have provided two statements to the Royal Commission; that’s correct

MS GUPPY: Yes, that is correct.

MR GOODWIN: One is dated 22 February 2017.

MS GUPPY: Correct.

MR GOODWIN: And the other was signed on 10 March 2017

MS GUPPY: That is correct.

MR GOODWIN: I tend of those two statements, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. Exhibit 87 for the first, and exhibit 88 for the second.

EXHIBIT #87 STATEMENT OF MARION ISOBEL GUPPY DATED 22/2/2017


MR GOODWIN: For your benefit Ms Guppy, in terms of your second statement I only propose to ask you questions in relation to part D of that statement regarding education in detention.

MS GUPPY: Thank you.

MR GOODWIN: Mr McNair, you have also provided two statements to the Royal Commission?

MR McNAIR: Yes.

MR GOODWIN: Your first statement is dated 6 December 2016?

MR McNAIR: Yes, that’s correct.


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MR GOODWIN: And your second statement is dated 21 February 2017?


MR GOODWIN: I tender those statements, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Exhibit 89 and 90.

EXHIBIT #89 STATEMENT OF BRETT McNAIR DATED 6/12/2016


MR GOODWIN: And Mr Glyde, you’ve provided one statement to the Royal Commission; that’s correct?

MR GLYDE: That is correct.

MR GOODWIN: And that’s dated 24 February 2017.

MR GLYDE: That’s right.

MR GOODWIN: I tender that statement, Commissioner.


EXHIBIT #91 STATEMENT OF DAVID GLYDE DATED 24/2/2017

MR GOODWIN: Now, you’ve each had extensive experience as teachers in the Northern Territory. Ms Guppy, it’s correct, you’ve worked in many remote and regional schools from 1989?

MS GUPPY: Yes, that’s correct.

MR GOODWIN: And you moved into the senior management team of the Department of Education in 2011, yes?

MS GUPPY: Correct, yes.

MR GOODWIN: And you have held the position of deputy chief executive of school education in the department since 2015?

MS GUPPY: Correct.


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MR GOODWIN: And Mr McNair, you’ve been a teacher in the Northern Territory for the past 10 years?

MR McNAIR: Yes.

MR GOODWIN: And you’ve worked at Tivendale School at Don Dale detention have since the end of 2013?

MR McNAIR: That’s correct.

MR GOODWIN: And you are currently the acting principal and have been since July 2016.

MR GOODWIN: And Mr Glyde, you have been a teacher in the Northern Territory since 1981; that’s right


MR GOODWIN: And you recently were the principal of Gillen Primary School in Alice Springs for eight years until 2013.

MR GLYDE: That is correct.

MR GOODWIN: And, at that time, you decided that you weren’t quite ready for retirement and you took up your current position as a teacher at Owen Springs School in 2014.


MR GOODWIN: Are you one of – or the most senior teacher currently in Owen Springs?

MR GLYDE: No, there is a team manager and I’m just a classroom teacher.

MR GOODWIN: In terms of experience - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Don’t say “just a classroom teacher”.

MR GLYDE: Sorry.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: All the teachers will rise up if you do.

MR GOODWIN: But in terms of the most – in terms of the most experience though, would you say that you are likely to have the most experience of the teachers at Owen Springs?

MR GLYDE: Yes. Definitely, yes.


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MR GOODWIN: Now, your statements – or in particular Mr McNair, your statement, and Mr Glyde, your statement, sets out in had greater detail the background to both Tivendale School and Owen Springs school. And so I don’t intend to go through that in any great detail. But, for the benefit of the Commissioners Mr McNair, could you briefly give an overview of the school and student profile at Tivendale School?

MR McNAIR: Are you referring to the attachment to my - - -

MR GOODWIN: Yes. And in your own words how would you describe Tivendale school?

MR McNAIR: Yes. So the school is located within the Don Dale Youth Detention Centre. It is run and operated by the Department of Education. It’s designed to cater for the students that are either on remand or sentenced inside Don Dale. We – our numbers range between 10 and 60 students that we have at any one time, where we are classed as a special school. It gives us consideration to have a greater ratio of staff to students. We are set up to cater for the different sort of needs and backgrounds of the students that we receive. There is – I’ve got a lot of information. I could talk a lot about the school, is there some sort of specific - - -

MR GOODWIN: No. I think that’s - - -?---Yes.

As an introductory remark - - -?---Yes.

- - - that’s completely appropriate and we will start to delve into the detail of some of the operations soon. Mr Glyde, would you mind doing the same in regards to Owen Springs School.

MR GLYDE: Yes, certainly. Owen Springs School is located within the Alice Springs Juvenile Detention Centre, for those of you who haven’t visited the facility, it’s one large building. The education room is located within the building, which is within the same corridor as their living quarters – as the detainees living quarters. It’s quite a quite cramped facility and we have quite a small classroom. Our facility extends to one classroom which is approximately 5 metres by 5 metres, so all of our business is conducted within that classroom unless we actually go outside for some recreation. We cater for – we are basically a holding facility, so for detainees on remand. Any detainees that are sentenced to long periods are generally sent north to Tivendale School, Don Dale. And we cater for – we have students from a variety of locations, communities around Alice Springs, up to Tennant Creek, Borroloola, Katherine, and local Alice Springs residents.

MR GOODWIN: And because of what we know regarding the percentage of detainees who are Indigenous, it’s true that – to say that the overwhelming majority, if not your complete class as of a day is indigenous?


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MR GLYDE: Well, in my experience, since I’ve been there, predominantly indigenous students, but not specifically exclusively. We have had non-Indigenous students there.

MR McNAIR: 95 of our – about 95 per cent of the students, on average, are Indigenous at the school - - -

MR GOODWIN: Thank you.

MR McNAIR: - - - from all areas of the Territory.

MR GOODWIN: Now, I want to jump in to discussing what I want to call a number of headline challenges in an education setting in a youth detention centre, particularly in the Northern Territory. And just so there aren’t any surprises, I will just list those for now and then discuss them one by one. The first is the transitional population in the detention centre. The second is the multi-age and multi-ability setting involved. The third is the fact that the school is set in a detention setting, and issues of behaviour management. The fourth is staff support and training and that’s education staff support and training. And the final is Aboriginal cultural awareness of teachers and access to cultural learning for students.

So first, on the nature of – the transitional nature of the population. Each of you has acknowledged in your statements that the transitional nature of the student population is a challenge in that there are many there for a short period of time and, due to the large remand population, a very uncertain period of time. Mr McNair – and I will ask you Mr Glyde the same question, Mr McNair, from a teacher’s perspective how is that a barrier to delivering education to young people in detention?

MR McNAIR: So the – so what you mentioned, the students – we don’t know, all the time, exactly when they come and go, so we’ve got some – the programs that we’ve set up are designed to cater for that specific thing. So we run shorter units of work than what would normally happen in a middle school or a secondary school because as far as – as you are probably aware ..... learning normally – well, always follows a sequence. So if you have interruptions to that sequence then that’s a challenge we need to overcome. So one of the things we set up was to run five week units of work. So if the – and we run eight a year.

And if the student comes in through – partway through that unit, they are only there for a short amount of time before we have started a fresh unit, and then we can report on those five week units of work. We also have – a mainstream school might have their standardised or diagnostic testing that they do twice a year, whereas we have a rolling – we do rolling diagnostic testing. As the students come in they will do their diagnostic testing in the areas I’ve mentioned in my statement and then within six months we will do it again. So pretty much we are always doing rolling ongoing testing. And then we - - -


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MR GOODWIN: And that’s - - -

MR McNAIR: Yes.

MR GOODWIN: And that’s typically around literacy and numeracy. So reading, comprehension, writing ability, those types of aptitude testing?


MR GOODWIN: And Mr Glyde, in particular for Owen Springs though, it appears that those issues are even further pronounced because of the even more uncertain period that your student population might be with you; is that right?

MR GLYDE: Perhaps I could explain just a day in the life of a teacher at Owen Springs. We come in in the morning and we go into the Territory Families or Corrections office and we are given a daily movement sheet, and on that sheet we are listed the detainees that have – that are present in the facility at that point in time. Some of them we would know from the day before, some of them may have been admitted overnight, some of those may go to court that day or they may not. They may not go to court for a number of days. So basically, we may have some students come into our class that we have never seen before, that we have never had the opportunity to speak to. So they come in cold.

We don’t know whether they are fit for school, whether they have had any – there’s – they are able to function properly in the classroom. We don’t know their literacy or numeracy, academic levels, so we need to assess them as soon as possible. And as you mentioned, we are very uncertain about how long they will be there for. It could be one day, it could be a week, or it could be a few weeks. So as Mr McNair mentioned in his speech just earlier, it’s very hard to program any long term units of work because of those factors, because the future is very uncertain in terms of what our class will look like the day after – the next day.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Can I just ask you this: we’ve heard a bit of evidence about health challenges for numbers of young people going into detention. One obvious one we heard about early was so many of them have got hearing difficulties, and we heard this morning from a young man whose sight difficulties were never picked up, so he really couldn’t learn. Now, how do you manage those sorts of things, because obviously your teachers are not health workers?

MR GLYDE: No, exactly. Well, we have a way we can go through that in the education system: we would refer them to student services. Short term out there, it becomes quite apparent, Commissioner, very quickly whether a student has a hearing impairment, and we would report that directly to the case manager or someone in Territory Families and request a medical screening for that student. So there are avenues that we can proceed down there if - - -


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COMMISSIONER WHITE: Is it something that you would generally be alert to with your knowledge that so many of them do have some impaired hearing capacity?

MR GLYDE: I would say, yes, quite a few of them do suffer from hearing impairment, yes.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Because from what we have noticed a number of these young fellows are particularly – quite shy and diffident so it might be easy to miss the hearing problems, just that they are not engaging with you.

MR GLYDE: That could happen, but we do our best to make sure we are on top of those issues and would refer them as quickly as possible if that was a problem that became evident.

COMMISSIONER GOODA: And in your experience, all of you, what impact does particularly hearing have on a child’s ability to learn?

MR McNAIR: So that sort of – those issues that you raise, Commissioners, can be picked up by the classroom teacher either while they are doing their diagnostic testing, and they – they might observe that the reading level or the comprehension level for that student is actually particularly low. So there’s – the way we learn in – if there’s problems with our hearing it can affect our speech, and that’s something you can pick up as well, so when they’re – they are based on a system from one to 30, for example for reading. And if someone is at a particular age and they’ve got a well below expected level, we obviously take into consideration how much time they have spent at school, and if English is their first, second, third, or fourth language and those aspects as well.

But we’ve also found that the speech, the hearing, is all connected as well. And we use the same – we are set up to report through to case the case management team at Don Dale and we’ve got an on-site medical team there, Department of Health work there as well. They’ve got a doctor, a nurse and a psychologist that we refer.

COMMISSIONER GOODA: I suppose I’m thinking about generally in education, not necessarily at Don Dale or the justice centre outside this town, the impact of hearing. You know, kids dropping out of school because they can’t hear, for instance. Which then leads to a different sort of behaviour from kids.

MR McNAIR: Yes. And it’s one of the – Marion will probably speak to this, it is one of their strategies to try and pick up on this sort of thing early on.

MS GUPPY: We certainly recognise the importance of being able to engage with children and families from as young an age as possible, and in my statement you will see some significant reference to child and family centres and to a FaFT program. Now that is a program where we are engaging with families and babies, and it is also involves an integrated service provision, so that means that we have education working in concert with health, working in concert with young parents and with


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babies right from the beginning, so that we are better placed to be able to intervene, to recognise the need, to educate the child and the family and have a provision in place where we are able to respond as early as possible to the issue that you’ve raised, Commissioner, because it is a significant issue and we acknowledge its impact on learning.

And we have within our department a school support services team and within that we have a hearing team and the hearing team works with our schools and with our children to ameliorate the issue of hearing loss.


COMMISSIONER WHITE: We have certainly messed up your list, Mr Goodwin.

MR GOODWIN: Not at all. I’ve taken some items off Commissioner, so thank you. If I can skip – following those questions, if I can go to Mr McNair’s second statement at paragraph 49 and following, regarding student support services. And you make a point, Mr McNair, in paragraph 51, that a majority of students have already been referred to and are clients of student support services. I just wanted to ask what that meant in practice. What type of – what type of tools become available to a teacher and to a student on that basis?

MR McNAIR: So student support services offer a wide range of support and it goes from training for teachers – as – and then right through to individual classroom support, or they can arrange funding for individual classroom support for students. So the referral – there is a referral process and once a student is referred and there’s some – obviously some assessments, then they come a client of student services and then – then from there they assess what sort of need there is. So one of my attachments has got – it’s three different tiers of support and then they will allocate resources depending on where they fit in that particular tier.

MR GOODWIN: Do you feel like that assistance is mobile enough in a school such as Tivendale where you’ve got an extremely transitional population? There’s not the same level of – well, of continuum to the teaching methodology associated with those children. Does that present a challenge?

MR McNAIR: The main thing that student support services help us with is the training for the teachers. We’re already established as a special school, and we’ve got ratios, and resources, and we are allowed to set up programs individually based on the student’s level. It’s not – if you compared it to a mainstream school where a student – if they come in at our age they might typically be at, you know, year 9 or 10 level and they would be expected to work at the year 9 Australian curriculum level, and that can, depending on the student, be the reason they are not engaging in school because that is – you know, they might be at year 2 level and they are expected to work at a year 9 level. So you won’t actually even go to the classroom in that situation.


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Whereas we are able to – and the reason we – one of reasons we do this diagnostic testing is to find out what level they are so we can work in that ZDP zone, and actually let them achieve. And it’s one of the – it’s one of the things that they actually enjoy about coming to school, is to be able to see the progress – incremental progress that they are making.

MS GUPPY: And also, counsel, if I could draw your attention to annexure 8 of my second statement. There’s a document there that refers to the Now Hear Continuum which certainly, as Brett has outlined – Mr McNair has outlined, is targeted very much at the development of teacher awareness and skilling in identification and responding to hearing loss. And there’s work being undertaken by the department in conjunction with the Department of Health around this.

MR GOODWIN: And that’s MG8 to your second statement, Ms Guppy?

MS GUPPY: Yes, it is.

MR GOODWIN: And while I have you, if I can take you to paragraph 171 of your second statement.

MS GUPPY: Yes.

MR GOODWIN: And there an acknowledgment that dealing with trauma experienced by detainees is something that’s particularly important for young people who are in detention, most of whom will have most likely experienced trauma in their lives. And you note there that the department is currently working with Tivendale on a new process where any student in detention will automatically be considered a trauma victim and additional departmental resources will then become available. What type of resources is thought that will become available on that basis?

MS GUPPY: Well, it needs to – it needs to be two-pronged, because there needs to be the additional resource and deepening of the understanding of staff in regard to trauma informed responses. So that’s one element. So professional learning for staff. But also additional support in terms of access to, you know, psychological services. It’s about social and emotional wellbeing and we recognise that in our schools, in detention centres, but also recognise that in regard to the broader complexity of education provision in the Northern Territory, particularly in remote and very remote schools.

MR GOODWIN: Now, I might come back to staff training on that issue shortly, when I ask some questions regarding those matters, but just following again through on the challenges with the transitional population, if I can go to paragraph 41 of Mr McNair’s second statement.

MR McNAIR: Yes.


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MR GOODWIN: And Mr McNair, you discuss access, being able to access a collection of data regarding students in the student administration management system, and also through the student master index, which is referred to in paragraph 42. And then, in paragraph 43 on the following page, you state that Tivendale School staff will not usually request any further information from schools. Is it right to say that while you conduct various aptitude testing for literacy and numeracy skills that this won’t necessarily provide you with the complete picture of the student? For example, regarding their typical behaviours in school or their participation rates, or their social skills.

MR McNAIR: Yes. So the information that we can get from SAMS, SMI, there’s also – every new admission gets – the name is sent to student support services so they also have a database – that dashboard that was mentioned before. So they all have information regarding that student stored on those data bases. So we get that, their attendance history, any previous psychological assessments or reports that have been done. We get – when I was in paragraph 33, I’m referring to the student file that might be kept at their home school that’s got some – maybe some reports from year 3 and some other information. So I was referring more to the diagnostic information that the schools might hold, whereas they typically have not been attending school so we can’t rely on, you know, diagnostic information from five years ago when their attendance was 10 per cent and they had been at five different schools that year .....

MR GOODWIN: And does that negatively impact on your ability to design individualised education plans for students?

MR McNAIR: Does what impact on it?

MR GOODWIN: The lack of – the lack of that type of knowledge around, for example, social skills, social participation, behaviour management already in classroom. Those types of - - -

MS BROWNHILL: I object to the question. Mr McNair’s evidence was that they do have access to behavioural and other kinds of information from the SAMS system, and the other systems that he referred to. So there’s a premise in there that’s not found in the evidence.

MR GOODWIN: I was working on the assumption that it was the opposite premise, but if I’m wrong I am happy to be corrected.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Well, Mr McNair will no doubt tell you.

MR GOODWIN: Yes. So do you have that type of information available to you, the information that goes to previous behaviour management, social skills in the classroom displayed by a child, teacher observations about those types of matters?


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MR McNAIR: Yes. So they will be typically stored in either a behaviour management plan or an education assessment plan and then student services have records of those.

MR GOODWIN: So you do have access to that type of material?

MR McNAIR: Yes. That paragraph was referring, as I mentioned before, to the academic records from previous time.

MR GOODWIN: My apologies then. If I can take, Mr Glyde, you to your statement at paragraph 18 in which you mention the case of students that might have come in the night before and the lack of knowledge that’s involved for a teacher preparing that day to teach that student. Do you conduct the type of testing that Mr McNair referred to for the student, and generally speaking how does that impact on your ability in Owen Springs to individually plan for a child?

MR GLYDE: Yes. We certainly do. We conduct PAT testing, progressive achievement tests, in reading, comprehension and maths and that happens as soon as possible upon enrolment into the school. That will give us a – you know, a very quick idea of where the student sits and from there we can at least start to develop a program suitable for their needs. And if there is other information as Mr McNair mentioned, we would certainly utilise that in making sure that we are looking after the kids as best as we can.

MR GOODWIN: Do you feel like you usually have enough information when a child first enters to be able to make those types of assessments?

MR GLYDE: Well, look, yes – look, through our teacher training and our years of experience it’s what we are good at. That’s our craft, that’s our trade, and we can make brief and quick assessments of the student, and as we get to know them better over time we obviously adjust their individual plans and we make sure that we’re catering for them – catering for them as well as we possibly can.

MR GOODWIN: And I presume a particular challenge – and this is something you alluded to Mr McNair – is the fact that the student population is typically, and has been typically, disengaged from the education process. I believe on your – if we can go to your first statement, and the attachment at page 5. And the first dot point underneath the – or underneath the second text box. And you note there – or the student profile notes that almost all – at 94 per cent of middle year students in Darwin, Palmerston and the rural area enrolled in Tivendale School had a mainstream school attendance of less than 50 per cent according to the student master index, and actually 70 per cent of students have a school attendance of less than 25 per cent. What impact does that have on a student’s ability to engage in the classroom when they arrive at Tivendale?

MR McNAIR: Well, we – as I explained before, that’s what we generally set up to cater for, that particular profile of student. Those ones that you – those ones that you


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mention, having a 50 per cent attendance rate is actually a lot higher than a lot of the other students we get. So those students are probably – in the spectrum of children that we have, they are actually probably on the high level. They have attended school a lot more than the other ones have. What impact does it have? It’s – it’s something we expect and it’s something that we’ve designed our processes to cater for:

MR GOODWIN: And Mr Glyde, did you have any observations to add?

MR GLYDE: Yes. Well, look it is challenging and obviously we deal with students, some of them haven’t been to school for years, and to have them come into an educational context, a classroom that they haven’t experienced for some time, can be rather confronting for them. But as I say and as Mr McNair said, that’s what we are set up to do and I think we do it well. We have a good staff-student ratio, there is lots of support for these students and we make life for them as easy as we can. And we’ve had some great success stories of students that haven’t been to school for a long time that have spent some time with us, and they’ve made huge, astronomical leaps in their literacy and numeracy in short periods of time, just by coming to school and having that consistent teaching and learning happening around them.

MR GOODWIN: So in that respect it almost becomes an opportunity to attempt to re-engage a child in education?

MR GLYDE: Absolutely.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: What about the follow-through? You’ve got a lot of short term placements in your school. If they are on remand and then they receive a community-based order from the court, is there any through-follow to keep them back on track to direct them into an educational facility that might suit them near to where they are living?

MR GLYDE: Well, at the moment we have just appointed a new – we have created a new position called a transition support teacher, and that teacher only commenced this week. And that will be part of that teacher’s role, so – to provide support for that student. At the moment we do our best, but as I explained the complexities around having a child or a detainee going to Court and they may not be back, we don’t know. And if they are only here for two days it makes it really difficult for us to set things up with other schools.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Well, that’s true. They might not – they might be released straight out of court.

MR GLYDE: Yes, exactly. And we do communicate with other agencies in the town that provide support for these children, like BushMob, St Josephs, Edmund Rice, Clontarf, and so on. We have one of our – one of our administrative officers is an AIEW. He does a lot of that legwork. And we will contact other schools, if – if we have an end date, and we know that this detainee may be released soon, we will


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certainly do our best to make sure that they’ve got somewhere to go and somewhere to look after them. But we haven’t been able to do it as well as we would have liked. I will be perfectly honest about that.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes, Ms Guppy.

MS GUPPY: Counsel and Commissioners, if I – if I could say that as an agency we have recognised that transition is an area for focus and it is certainly an area that we are focusing on. I’ve detailed that in my statement.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes, I noted that.

MS GUPPY: And I think we are already seeing a change as a consequence of that. Certainly, with the greater connectivity between Tivendale School and Malak Re-Engagement Centre we are there seeing the opportunity for us to be able to much more effectively address the issue you’ve raised. So there is certainly work underway.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: That is very encouraging to hear. It will no doubt prove much more difficult if you’ve got young people who are returning to more remote communities as opposed to into the greater Darwin population or around Alice Springs.

MS GUPPY: Yes.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Is that a work in progress?

MS GUPPY: Well, we already do have provision in place in a variety of locations, but you have – you have raised something that is of enormous importance and that is that the diversity and complexity of service provision in remote and very remote, for instance, is very, very challenging. We do have provision of service through our regional high schools in Nhulunbuy, in Katherine, and in Tennant Creek, to provide for students who require some additional assistance or may in fact require an alternative approach to their provision. And certainly with the creative life, healthy life, you would have seen some significant investment being put into both Katherine and Tennant Creek for that reason. We see that provision having the potential to become a hub provision for students who might be from more remote localities that are in the geolocation area of Katherine or Tennant Creek.

And certainly that is being built into the programs that are currently under development. So – so we are – we are most definitely, I think, further developing that provision for students and children finding themselves in those circumstances. However, I would qualify that as well by saying that obviously in the larger centres of Alice Springs and Darwin, where there’s the opportunity to engage more broadly with NGOs, where there’s a larger critical mass of students with a particular need, then obviously we are better placed to provide a more fulsome response, but


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certainly we have options available but they are not the same options in every place across the Territory.


MR GOODWIN: Thank you, Commissioners.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: It was still on topic, Mr Goodwin.

MR GOODWIN: Yes. If I can turn to the second headline challenge that I mentioned, the multi-age and multi-ability setting. Mr McNair, in your first statement at paragraph 36.

MR McNAIR: Yes.

MR GOODWIN: You state that a key focus of the education program is literacy and numeracy. Mr Glyde, I presume that’s the case for Owen Springs as well.

MR GLYDE: Yes.

MR GOODWIN: Is that in part a focus – and it might be based on both of these factors. Is it based on the nature of the student population in terms of ability as well as the fact that, because it is a transitional population, that due to those challenges the best approach is to focus on literacy and numeracy?

MR McNAIR: Well, you will probably find that most schools have a focus on literacy and numeracy. It’s not an unusual thing for a school to focus on. There’s no particular reason we do it other than that. I don’t quite understand what you’re asking there.

MR GOODWIN: My follow-on question is that: is there space to be able to involve education programs in the school day associated with rehabilitation, dealing with some of the issues that children present with associated with trauma, foetal alcohol spectrum disorder, cognitive impairment, those type – emotional – social and emotional regulation – those types of things. Is there an ability to also attempt to deal in the school setting with those types of challenges that a student might be presented with?

MR McNAIR: Yes. So we do have a focus on literacy and numeracy. We also have a lot of other programs that we run during the day, so what you will find in the timetable is that those would occur every day. You will have literacy and numeracy every day, but then we also have an art program, we’ve got a music program, we have – we run different courses and certificate programs as well. So we do have a – we do have a wide range of programs. We have got Danila Dilba running a program, Deadly Choices program, Mission Australia are running a strength and shine program. We have done – we do white card, first aid, driver’s licencing. So there is


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a wide range that we already do, so possibly to answer your question if there was a program specific to some need we do have the facility to run it at school.

MR GOODWIN: Mr Glyde - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Mr McNair, I wonder if you can ask this, because you have the greater numbers in your facility: most of the young people from whom we have statements, and there are many of them, indicate that they present with quite serious drug and alcohol dependency from a very young age. This seems to be a matter that needs pretty prompt attention. Now, I note that some programs are offered in detention, but they seem to be, you know, of an hour or two once a week or something like that. Is there any possibility of more intense work done around that area?

MR McNAIR: So we work quite closely with – was Corrections, now Territory Families, their case management team, and they do have – they also have programs that they run during the school day where the kids do attend as well. So, yes.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: What about more intensive therapy? If they are not released into a dedicated program like BushMob, for example, that actually focus on those things, if they have to remain in detention can that be addressed in a – I think probably a way that’s likely to be more effective than just a precautionary principle? Which I suspect the others are.

MR McNAIR: I think something like that we would obviously have to work with Territory Families and decide who’s – you know, is this education, rehabilitation? We still obviously want everything to benefit the student. It’s a matter of deciding who runs which programs and when, but we’ve always been supportive of Territory Families, and any programs they want to run as well, during school time.

MS GUPPY: Commissioner, if I might comment. We offer an education service, and education in and of itself has a rehabilitative function, and certainly the focus on literacy and numeracy is absolutely geared to that, because we know that the more education we can give children the stronger their literacy and numeracy achievement levels, then the better their general life outcomes tend to be. And certainly literacy and numeracy is the foundation for anyone to be fully engaged within their community and it’s also the foundation of employability. And that actually is our focus, and we utterly recognise the rehabilitative function that that plays.

Other elements of rehabilitation, other programs required for the rehabilitation to meet the needs of these young people, really require clinical specialised supervision and certainly our staff would not be equipped to be able to deliver these programs. So whilst there may be time in a school day where people could come in to provide a program to an individual student, or a group of students, or whatever, accommodation would of course be made for that, but it would not be appropriate for our staff who would potentially be ill-equipped to deliver these programs to be involved, if that was, you know, to be suggested.


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COMMISSIONER GOODA: So Ms Guppy, you would sort of argue that education in and of itself is an essential part of a therapeutic model?

MS GUPPY: I do.

MR GLYDE: Just the situation at Owen Springs, we certainly have a focus on literacy and numeracy for the first two hours of each teaching day, and that happens regardless of anything else happening around us. We treat that very, very sacredly and importantly. That doesn’t mean we ignore other important parts of the curriculum. We work within – whatever we can provide in terms of providing life skills, and we have an art program, a music program, physical education. So most of those core subjects that you would experience in a mainstream primary school we would cover at our establishment. One really good course I would like to mention, that we ran out until recently – unfortunately the facilitator moved interstate, was the Red Dust Role Models program.

I’m not sure if you’ve heard of that. But it was run by a local Indigenous fellow, a qualified teacher, and he came out once a week and we had a really good session with the lads and it involved personal development, and goal setting, and dealing with things such as peer pressure and building relationships, and he was just terrific for those of you who know him. He had this real knack, he was very savvy with the boys. He had their – the way of speaking to them and they really respected him, and that was a program that I thought, in addition to the literacy and numeracy stuff, was really worth mentioning, because I think that had a huge impact on those detainees that joined in that program.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. Sounds good.

MR GOODWIN: Can I discuss with you all vocational education and training. And some of the difficulties in delivering VET in detention. Ms Guppy, in your first statement you supplied some data regarding the number of student s enrolled and partially completing and completing VET. That’s MG5. And that Charles Darwin University is the registered training organisation that provides VET to detention centres; that’s right?

MS GUPPY: It is.

MR GOODWIN: And CDU provided you with this information that you’ve set out?

MS GUPPY: This information came from our VET area, our student support area.

MR GOODWIN: Who in turn got the data from CDU; is that right

MS GUPPY: Yes. The RTO has register the attainment and the completion of a certificate.


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MR GOODWIN: And so the data shows that from 2008, at least till 2011, the number of students enrolled in a course, but not the number of completions. And then if we go to the next page, and from 2012 through to 2016, that while a number have partially completed a number of courses at Tivendale, only two have completed a certificate since 2012, and that in 2015 there was no delivery of any VET courses due to the closure of the old Don Dale and the relocation to, I presume, Holtze adult prison.

MS GUPPY: Yes.

MR GOODWIN: Why do you think there are such low completion rates in VET?

MS GUPPY: Well, it depends on the period of time that the detainee might be undertaking the certificate. The certificates require a set number of hours to – of training to be undertaken to complete. So it may be that a detainee is partway through a certificate when they are released, and so they would not have completed the certificate. However, their attainment of those aspects of the course that they have completed would be stored and recorded, and those records are required under legislation to be held for 30 years. So the individual has the opportunity to go back and complete the other elements of that course to get a completion.

MR GOODWIN: And Mr McNair, and Mr Glyde, is – does that form part of the transition planning for when a student might leave Tivendale or Owen Springs to consider their partial completion of VET as part of their potential transition planning?

MR McNAIR: Yes. So when that is an option then we can assist with that. We had – I’ve got examples of when – I can possibly give you an example, a student started a VET course and they were released and we knew of their release – which is important, we don’t always know. So we knew of their release time and I worked with the a through-care worker from another organisation and this particular VET course was being continued – being run at another school in Darwin and so they were able to continue the VET course in that circumstance. So the possibility is there and, yes, it can happen. It does happen.

MR GOODWIN: And is it true for this year, Mr McNair, I think you refer to it in your second statement at paragraph 19, that there will be only one VET course offered this year; is that right?

MR McNAIR: At the time that I wrote that, that was my understanding. We’ve got the certificate 1 in kitchen operations focusing on bakery, which will be running, and the – we can do the CERT1 in Agri-Foods where we get the horses up from Katherine rural college and they do the horse work component of that. And I’ve got six weeks of that available this year as well.

MR GOODWIN: Would you like to be offered – be able to offer more VET to students in Tivendale?


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MR McNAIR: I – in an ideal world it would be – yes. That would be – it would be great to offer VET to students all over the Territory.

MR GOODWIN: What, in your view and your experience, are some of the barriers to not being able to deliver – well, not being able to offer more VET to detainees?

MR McNAIR: Well, I think Marion outlines the actual – the set-up of the funding and the allocation, how it has to be spread out. So maybe - - -

MS GUPPY: So within my – sorry, within my statement I’ve outlined that there is a budget vote for vocational education and training.

MR GOODWIN: We might go to that actually, if I can pause you briefly. That’s paragraph 50 of your first statement.

MS GUPPY: And it details the quantum of the funding that’s available, that RTOs – and some schools are RTOs, and others are private providers. In addition to that the Department of Education in and of itself has an RTO, and the RTOs bid for courses for funding.

MR GOODWIN: And you state in paragraph 50 that even though CDU – this is the third-last line:

Even though CDU receive recurrent funds they still have to report on results achieved. Each course they deliver has a dollar value worked out by the total number of students receiving a full qualification.

MS GUPPY: Yes.

MR GOODWIN:

When CDU look at discontinuing a course it would be for a variety of reasons, such as inadequate facilities, staff safety, lack of results, and overall student numbers.

Is this framework associated with the delivery of VET realistic in a detention setting with low and transitory numbers, or do you think a more flexible approach is required?

MS GUPPY: The important element that we have to consider here is that a VET qualification is a formal piece of certification. It’s a national qualification. So, therefore, we are required to abide by a raft of regulatory requirements stipulated to ensure that the programs and the QA, the assessment of those programs and issuing of the certification are met as an appropriate standard. I suppose what I’m saying, counsel, is that VET in an of itself is not a flexible proposition throughout Australia, but it is such an important element because it gives that whole of jurisdiction qualification. So, in terms of flexibilities, VET is not something that can be


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tampered with, if I can use that word, or adjusted easily without in fact going into or moving into breach of the requirement of the course that would lead to non-awarding of the certificate.

MR GOODWIN: I see. If I can take you to paragraph 51 you mention, at Owen Springs, the disused cooking facility because of problems including staff lacking industry – currently to deliver hospitality units – sorry, industry currency, sorry – to deliver hospitality units. And you say that there are a few matters that need to be resolved. What matters need to be resolved and how is the department considering that issue?

MS GUPPY: Well, there are matters – it’s in regard to the actual facility. One of the important elements to be aware of, when we are talking about VET provision, is that the facility within which the training is delivered has to be of industry standard. The trainers have to have industry currency as well as their qualification, and so that’s what I’m referring to there, is that we have to ensure that we are compliant with the requirements of VET to actually be able to deliver.

MR GOODWIN: Is it possible to bring in external staff who do have that industry currency to be able to deliver those hospitality units?

MS GUPPY: Yes, it is. Through the RTO, that is possible.

MR GOODWIN: And has that happened in your knowledge, in – previously in Owen Springs regarding the industrial kitchen.

MS GUPPY: I’m going to defer to Mr Glyde, because he has on the ground knowledge.

MR GOODWIN: Certainly.

MR GLYDE: Yes, counsel. We did complete a – or run a certificate 1 in bakery course in 2015. We attempted to last year, but we had some difficulties finding a service provider, and we were unable to, and we are currently pursuing – looking at this year, hoping to get something off the ground.

MR GOODWIN: And what would you like to see done with that industrial kitchen?

MR GLYDE: I would certainly like to see another baking course happen. We – even though we are not doing a certificate, a VET course, we use the kitchen very regularly. In fact, we have a – on Thursdays all of our students are involved in a cooking program and they prepare their lunch meal and their evening meal out of that kitchen. So whilst one group is in the classroom doing literacy and numeracy, the other group is out in the kitchen preparing the lunch meal, and then they swap over after they have had a break and the others go out and cook. So for that day in the detention centre their meals are not delivered from an outside source: those


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children are involved in preparing the meal, cutting, chopping, cooking, cleaning up and consuming the meal, most importantly, of course.

MR GOODWIN: And I assume the kids enjoy that.

MR GLYDE: Absolutely. They are very proud of it, and one of our staff members is a qualified chef and he works with them, and they cook all sorts of marvellous things, and it’s something that they look forward to every week. And so whilst it’s not – the kitchen facility is not being utilised for VET activity at the moment, it certainly is being used in a meaningful and purposeful way.

MR GOODWIN: Thank you. Commissioners, I was going to move on to another subject matter, but I note the time.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. And I take it that you will be some little time with our panel.

MR GOODWIN: I think at least half an hour, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Well, I think probably talking about the demountable kitchen has probably reminded everyone that it’s past lunchtime. Alright. Could we then resume at 2 o’clock, please.

ADJOURNED [1.09 pm]

RESUMED [2.04 pm]

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you, Mr Goodwin.

MR GOODWIN: If I can move on to the third headline challenge that I mentioned, the detention setting and behaviour management, Mr Glyde, can I ask you first: how would you characterise the working relationship between teachers and Youth Justice Officers at Owen Springs school?

MR GLYDE: Well, by virtue of the design of the building, we have a very close relationship with those officers. We see them in the morning when we come into the building, we converse with them throughout the day. They are a presence in the classroom with us at all times. I would say that we have a good working relationship with them.

MR GOODWIN: Mr McNair, the same question?

MR McNAIR: Yes, I would agree with that as well.


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MR GOODWIN: And, Mr Glyde, at paragraph 12 of your statement.

MR GLYDE: Yes.

MR GOODWIN: You make the comment that overall you are pleased with the behaviour in the classroom, very proud of the working relationship you have with students. They may behave very poorly for the Youth Justice Officers, but when they come into the classroom most of them will immediately settle. What did you mean by that last comment?

MR GLYDE: What I mean by that comment is we are quite happy, most of the time, with the way that the students behave in the classroom. They behave for us quite well, they understand the rules and regulations and behaviour management processes we have in place, they are clearly articulated in the classroom on the wall, we discuss the rules with the students regularly. They understand that there’s a step-by-step provides that we follow through and if they get to the end of that process they may be removed from the classroom. And, generally speaking, we have a good, well-functioning classroom.

MR GOODWIN: Do you see a difference between, generally speaking in the way that detainees behave for Youth Justice Officers compared to teachers?

MR GLYDE: Look, I can’t speak entirely for what happens outside of the classroom. I do see, on occasions, the students doing things outside of the classroom what they wouldn’t do specifically in the classroom.

MR GOODWIN: With all your experience, do you have a theory about why that is?

MR GLYDE: I believe, once they enter the sanctity of the classroom they are aware that they are entering into an environment where they have to be settled and they have to put their head down and get on with their work and any – they know that unruly behaviour, you know, won’t be tolerated.

MR GOODWIN: And Mr McNair, do you – have you noticed a difference generally speaking of behaviour of detainees for Youth Justice Officers as opposed to teachers in your time at Tivendale?

MR McNAIR: Yes. Just to put it in context, we are only there for a portion of the day whereas the Youth Justice Officers are rostered on 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So I guess I can only comment for during the day. And, yes, at times I’ve seen behaviour change depending on the setting and – or whether it’s inside the classroom or outside the classroom.

MR GOODWIN: And do you think that the behaviour is better inside the classroom from what you’ve witnessed?

MR McNAIR: Well, compared to those times that I said - - -


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MR GOODWIN: Yes.

MR McNAIR: - - - it wasn’t. Yes.

MR GOODWIN: And do you have a theory as to why?

MR McNAIR: Well, I’m quite proud of our classroom management strategies that we have in place. We have an emphasis on rewarding positive behaviour, we have good, positive relationships with the students. We have a lot of consistency, it is the same teacher in the classroom all the time. So we provide that consistency, and we are able to do that in our context. The Youth Justice Officers are operating in different circumstances.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: And, like Mr Glyde at his school, do you explain the rules and the parameters at Tivendale and reinforce them with the students?

MR McNAIR: Yes. So they are reinforced all the time and part of our positive behaviour system we have, it’s a gold – it’s a medal program, so at the end of every lesson what they are aiming to do is achieve a gold. They get a gold, silver and bronze. So at the end of the lesson the teacher will talk about the behaviour and whether they actually – they will ask the student, what do you think you got, there’s some self-reflection, and then if they getting – if they are not getting a gold then they will just say why. So it’s being reinforced all the time exactly why and why not that’s happening.

MR GLYDE: Excuse me, Commissioners, further to my earlier response I would like to add that the students that come into an environment where they can settle quickly and they sit around a table and they have a task to perform. So, in defence of the Territory Families Officers, moving the students around the building can become problematic. Moving large groups of students. And any school teacher who has marched a team of students from the classroom to the assembly hall will vouch for the fact that it’s like herding cats sometimes. So once they leave the classroom, and that sort of formal setting is no longer with them, they can become a little bit freer and easier than they were in the classroom.

So it’s no disrespect to anyone in particular, I think that’s just the way it is, and often they go back into the company of the older students who aren’t in school and that can have its – present its own dynamics and – so I guess that’s a further response to that question.

MR McNAIR: Sorry, I would like to provide some context in regard to that as well. The – we are in that position where we can provide that, and in a way we’ve got – that position for us is a fairly easy position in that the children are brought to our classroom and then we engage in education. The Youth Justice Officers have got different roles to carry out during the day. So they have what I equate to being the not so enjoyable parts of being a parent. So getting them up, out of bed, have a shower, eat your breakfast, get ready for school. “Hurry up, you’re taking too long


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to east your toast”, whatever. So they’ve got all those things to deal with and then take them back, bed time, showers. “Okay, it’s time for bed.” So it is a – we don’t have to sort of address those aspects with the young people.

MR GOODWIN: If I can move on to discuss the memorandum of understanding that is currently in place, which is attached to your statement, Mr McNair, at BM5, your second statement. It’s also attached to your statement, Ms Guppy. Ms Guppy, it’s right that there – prior to the signing of this memorandum of understanding, as you’ve stated in your statement, there was no formal strategic relationship between the Department of Education and the then Department of Corrections?

MS GUPPY: Yes. There was historical practice. There was convention based on historical practice, but there wasn’t the formalisation that we now have with the MOU where roles and responsibilities are clearly and explicitly recorded.

MR GOODWIN: And so those conventions would rely on the agreement between the principal of the school and the superintendent; is that right?

MS GUPPY: That would be correct.

MR GOODWIN: And so would that mean that it might depend on the particular working relationship between the principal of the time and the superintendent of the time as to how well that relationship worked?

MS GUPPY: Well, there would be some conjecture in coming to that conclusion. I think, from my experience of working to get the memorandum of understanding documented and in place, it was really a process of just recording and making sure that we had clarified what was in place previously in any case. I can’t think of anything in particular in there that was, you know, substantially going to change the way anything operated.

MR GOODWIN: If I can take you to the memorandum of understanding itself, and on page 2, under General Principles.

MS GUPPY: General Principles. Certainly.

MR GOODWIN: Yes. And the first two are:

Every child has the right to receive a quality education suited to their needs and abilities.

And then 2:

The right to receive an education is not negated by a young person’s incarceration.

MS GUPPY: Yes.


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MR GOODWIN: And then shift to the next page, and at the third dot point regarding:

Youth detention centres are first and foremost detention centres managed by Corrections and that that legislation policies and procedures will supersede those of Education at any time the safety and/or security of a youth detention centre and/or the safety and any security of any person within a centre is under threat.

And then two dot points down:

The delivery of educational services to young people in detention will be based on continuous risk assessment.

Is there an inherent tension between the first two dot points and the second two dot points that I read out?

MS GUPPY: If we put it in context, absolutely not. In that there is a locus of control that the Education Department has, and its staff have, in regard to operation of an education provision within the broader framework of a detention centre that is operated by another department for another purpose. And so, in looking at that, I think that is actually a clarification, a statement of the reality of context.

MR GOODWIN: Well, if we go further in into the MOU on page 3, and this is in regards to the roles and responsibilities of education.

MS GUPPY: Yes.

MR GOODWIN: And on the 7th dot point, under participating in case management consultations led by Corrections to discuss and plan short and long term goals for the young person’s education, safety, welfare, behaviour and wellbeing. And then on the next page, in regards to the roles and responsibilities of Correctional Services, the fourth dot point is in regards to undertaking detainee security classifications and reviewing security classifications. Perhaps this is a question for Mr McNair and Mr Glyde. Do you as teachers, as part of your role in case management conferences, have influence on or are consulted on the particular risk classification that a child is given in a detention centre?

MR McNAIR: You mention risk classification. You talking about security classification?

MR GOODWIN: Yes.

MR McNAIR: Yes. So every week we’re provided a list of the young people that are up for classification review. The classification meetings happen on a Wednesday. So then we provide a report from Education, a classification education report written to talk about the students’ – I don’t have a copy of that exact report,


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but it talks about their behaviours, their attitude, and their participation in school. So then we provide those to Territory Families and then send a representative from Education to the classification meeting, and they participate in that along with the case management team, and the shift supervisor who is on at the day.

That’s where our participation ends and then there’s a further process: they actually bring the detainees in and talk about what that process was, and then I guess that’s our involvement in it. The rest is a process of Territory Families.

MR GOODWIN: And have you participated in those types of classification meetings before?

MR McNAIR: Yes.

MR GOODWIN: And would you say that your view as a teacher regarding the behaviour of the child in school is particularly taken into account in determining a child’s classification?

MR McNAIR: Yes. I think they consider all the different aspects. It’s our – there’s an education report plus, they have their own reports that they get from different sources, so they are set out in a – in the agenda that we get for the meeting, there’s the name, there’s the different reports or types of incidents and it’s just reviewed on a case-by-case basis according to that. Then a recommendation is made, and then that becomes a – it’s a joint recommendation from - - -

MR GOODWIN: By consensus of the people who were involved in that classification meeting?

MR McNAIR: Yes. And then the – that recommendation needs to go through to the superintendent to be approved, and then they either approve or not approve the recommendation.

MR GOODWIN: How often would you say recommendation is approved in your experience?

MR McNAIR: 90 per cent of the – like, I don’t have any sort of facts or - - -

MR GOODWIN: But in the majority of the cases recommendation is accepted?

MR McNAIR: Yes. I believe so.

MR GOODWIN: Mr Glyde, can I ask in the circumstances that you mentioned before, for whatever reasons, there is sometimes a difference of behaviour in the classroom as opposed to outside of the classroom. So therefore there might be a different report by Education regarding the behaviour of a particular detainee as opposed to their behaviour outside of the classroom. In – have you participated in case management meetings that have discussed classifications?


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MR GLYDE: Yes, I have participated in those meetings, and much the same process as outlined by Mr McNair. We would do an education report, a classification report which would outline our understanding of how the student has gone in school and their behaviour and attitude and social attitude and so on. And that would be looked at, at – from my memory – I haven’t been to a meeting for some time, but they pull up all the incidents involving that particular detainee, whether it be an incident report from school or a report of good behaviour, and they will go through and then make an assessment of whether the detainee should be reclassified or moved up or down the scale.

MR GOODWIN: And Mr McNair, in your experience has that type of – has that been the consistent practice throughout your time at Tivendale School, or has it changed over the years?

MR McNAIR: I’ve only been involved in the classification meetings, probably, for the last 12 months or so, so prior to then I didn’t participate. We’ve always provided education reports for the classification meetings, but I wasn’t – I didn’t attend the meetings prior to that.

MR GOODWIN: Who traditionally does?

MR McNAIR: It’s been the principal or senior teacher, depending on – it’s during the day so depending on the – every day is different with us and sometimes on class, sometimes not, depending on staff on leave. So we can’t always guarantee the same person will be there, but that’s why we – a representative of the school to be there. Recently, I’ve invited our AIEW to participate in those meetings as part of his role of knowing the students and their participation and performance at school.

MR GOODWIN: And that hadn’t been the practice until you instituted it?

MR McNAIR: I don’t believe so, no.

MR GOODWIN: And can I take you to page 5 of the memorandum of understanding, under the heading Students Unable to Attend School. And it states that students are unable to attend school primarily for three – it might be that a student is unable to attend school primarily for three reasons: (1) one that they are suspended; (2) that they are unwell; or (3), that their current risk assessment precluding their engagement. Mr McNair, perhaps I will ask you first. What’s your understanding of the particular risk classification that would preclude engagement from school?

MR McNAIR: I think the – if their risk assessment is determined to be at-risk, and then they are not able to attend school, then they can’t do that. They can’t attend school if they are at-risk. That’s the term. Also, if there’s other – other causes leading to the risk assessment to say that it’s not safety reasons or anything like that.


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MR GOODWIN: So is it your evidence that it will only be if they are classified at-risk or that it includes whether they are at-risk but also includes other circumstances that might preclude them from attending school?

MR McNAIR: Yes, I think that would cover – that would cover both areas.

MR GOODWIN: What type of circumstances, in your experience, have precluded a child not being able to attend school for risk reasons when they are not on an at-risk classification?

MR McNAIR: I can’t really think of – I can’t really think of any examples of a child on a – in that compulsory age of schooling where they will be prevented from attending school for a risk assessment.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: So if they were wearing a red T-shirt - - -

MR McNAIR: So – okay. The red - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: - - - they can come to school. That, we understand, is the - - -

MR McNAIR: Yes. We’ve got a – if they’ve got a red shirt, that was in the previous facility, that was H block and at the moment it’s the HSU, and the red shirt are the high security detainees. They still attend school, except that their school is located within that accommodation block.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: They don’t come to the school, the school sends work for them to do?

MR McNAIR: No, no. We have a classroom inside the HSU.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I see.

MR McNAIR: And then – so a teacher goes to the HSU and it’s just another classroom, very similar. If anyone has been through, would have seen it’s very similar to the set-up to the other classroom, it’s just located inside the HSU.


MR GLYDE: Commissioners, if I could just jump in here. I would like to make it very clear to the Commissioners, and to everyone else in this room, the context within which we are working. This is not your standard classroom that you would encounter in a normal – a mainstream primary school.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I think we understand that.


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MR GLYDE: This is – we are dealing with potentially hostile students, aggressive students, students who have suffered extreme trauma, students who may be affected by substances or coming down off a substance. We need to be on top of these issues, and there are times when these students cannot come to school, and they may not be at-risk in the formal term, but I can think of some examples where Territory Families or formerly Corrections Officers have come and said, “Look, we are not going to send Johnny to school or Susy to school today. They’ve had a bad night, they had a major incident at 2 o’clock in the morning which upset them. We feel it’s best that they stay in their room and have some quiet time.”

So I guess it’s about using judgment and it’s not a punitive measure by any means, it’s a measure taken. And we would agree to that it’s in the best interests of the student, that forcing them into a classroom to sit down and do maths and English when they haven’t had any sleep the night before, or have encountered some traumatic event – they may have had a fight with another student or something has happened that’s upset them, they have started thinking about where they are and how long they are there for, I think it’s only common sense that they not be sent to school for that day.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Thank you.

MR GOODWIN: Are you consulted on that decision, Mr Glyde? Is it – are those circumstances discussed with you?

MR GLYDE: They are.

MR GOODWIN: And do you provide an opinion about whether you think that’s sufficient for them not to attend school or not?

MR GLYDE: Generally. Well, yes, we do. As Mr McNair stated earlier, the officers look after these students overnight and we have to trust their judgment. And if they tell us there has been a major traumatic event that this detainee is experiencing and they think that it’s best that they don’t come to school, they are upset, they are flustered, they are not themselves, and we think they need a – it would be most unusual for us to argue the point.

MR GOODWIN: And in circumstances where a child isn’t – doesn’t attend school for those reasons, the memorandum of understanding states that Corrections is responsible for the provision of alternative activities for detainees who do not attend school. Who – do you provide educational material for that particular child to be able to do through that day?

MR GLYDE: The memorandum of understanding clearly states too that after – if a student is suspended or withdrawn from school for two days, we will supply them with work, so that will happen. Just last Friday we had a student that was unable to attend school for a specific reason, and I provided that student with some work to do and an iPad to do some reading with and some other activities. It’s – it’s about


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common sense. The student wasn’t in school because they played up by any means. The student had some emotional difficulties that they were working through. Territory Families asked, “Is there anything we can do to help them pass the time?” So we were quite happy to oblige and give them – you know, an iPad and some books to read.

MR GOODWIN: Can I go to the third paragraph under Students Unable to Attend School where it states that:

Detainees suspended from school will not receive individualised teaching instruction.

And then in the third line:

In addition individualised teaching will not be provided to detainees, upon mutual agreement between Corrections and Education, in circumstances where it is considered an unreasonable impost on resourcing or capacity.

Now, I will return to suspensions shortly. But in regards to that last line, do you know what type of situations that’s referring to?

MR GLYDE: Look, I didn’t write this, but just reading that I believe it may cover an incident where some students at the detention centre cannot be trusted to take pencils or textas or things into their rooms. There has been a lot of graffiti. And for them to undertake school work it would need someone to be with them to supervise them and make sure that things happen as they should. So I guess that’s what I’m reading into that. Unless someone else has any other ideas?

MR GOODWIN: Ms Guppy?

MS GUPPY: No. Mr – Mr – Mr Glyde is correct there, and if – if we think about the context, and we think about the fact that there has been a circumstance where it has been determined that the young person is not going to be in school for the remainder of the day, or a day, it’s – if we put that into the practice of a parent and a child, then it’s the same sort of scenario whereby there is the provision. You know, we have agreed two days there will be the provision of work, but the – we need to, in doing that, acknowledge that the child is in the care of Territory Families and Territory Families, through the memorandum of understanding, has agreed that they will make accommodation within their resource base to address that child’s needs.

MR GOODWIN: Mr McNair, can I ask you about – about the potential use of a cell placement as a behaviour management tool for Youth Justice Officers and put the scenario of, say in the morning a child acts in such a way that as a consequence he or she is placed in their room for a time out, for an hour or two hours. In those circumstances would the child commence school late? Would they eventually come to school?


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MR McNAIR: For – actually, the room placement and at-risk, I think are at – both defined time period and they are allowed to return to school when that time period is finished. So if a placement finishes halfway through the day they can come back to school. It depends on the situation of the at-risk, but there’s no reason that they wouldn’t come back. I guess the general – the general procedure we follow, if it’s not an incident that happened in school, then there’s generally no reason they can’t come back to school whenever that sort of placement is – you know, it’s just – like getting dropped off at school late or something like that equivalent.

MR GOODWIN: Has that happened in your experience?

MR McNAIR: That they’ve come back to school partway through the day. Yes. That’s a normal - - -

MR GOODWIN: And does that disrupt your ability to deliver education to the classroom?

MR McNAIR: No, because the – in the morning. So we – just to provide, I guess, some more context, we get to work at 8 o’clock and school doesn’t start till 8.30. So we spend that first half hour of the day getting the list, as Mr Glyde said, finding out who is here, who has been released, ring the shift supervisor, because the YJO on night duty makes up our daily movement sheet. Ring the shift supervisor, find out if any additional warrants or not have come through over – you know, during the morning that might affect who is going to court, who’s not. So we get a list of who is in school and who is not in school. If someone is at-risk they will tell us the time that they are actually coming back or coming off at-risk or, if it’s a room placement that has happened overnight, or the day before, or – whatever time it is, they will tell us what time they are actually due back at school. So it’s not really an inconvenience when they let us know when it’s happening.

MR GOODWIN: And has that – so that information is usually communicated to you at the start of the day in terms of any child who might not be able to attend because they are at-risk or, for other circumstances, are unable to attend?

MR McNAIR: Yes. If they – if it’s known at the start of the day, depending if that time period – if that time period coincides with the 8 o’clock in the morning, if it happens – if there is an incident that happens after 8.30, say – you know, before they’ve come to school, then they will let us know after that time.

MR GOODWIN: And if I can shift to the issue of suspension. Ms Guppy, does the Department of Education have a formal policy on suspensions?

MS GUPPY: We do, counsel, and the policy also is accompanied by some quite extensive guidelines that obviously provide advice regarding procedure for our staff. The important element about a suspension is that it is for behaviour, obviously, that is at an extreme end of a behavioural continuum, and the policy is very, very specific


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that the student’s presence would be likely to constitute a risk to either the physical or psychological wellbeing of the other students and staff in the classroom.

MR GOODWIN: And if we can bring up exhibit BM9 to the second statement of Mr McNair, and we have first a positive behaviour flow chart. And I think Mr McNair, you mentioned this to the Commissioners in regards to the bronze, silver and gold medal system. And then on the next page we have the classroom management framework whereby particular behaviours might lead to particular interventions, including a suspension from the classroom. Ms Guppy, is that in line with the policy on suspensions that you just referred to?

MS GUPPY: On looking at the flow chart here, it appears to me to there’s a staged response to behaviours, and that suspension would be for the behaviours at the far end of the spectrum. It would be an expectation – and it is the case in our schools that their behaviour management policies follow – for that kind of structure.

MR GOODWIN: And is it right that the maximum level of suspension period is four weeks under the policy?

MS GUPPY: 20 school days.

MR GOODWIN: 20 school days. And, Mr McNair, if I can ask in terms of – this is the type of framework that you use, correct, in terms of considering whether to suspend a child?

MR McNAIR: Firstly, I don’t believe that actually mentions suspension, that document. Remove student from class.

MR GOODWIN: Well – and you wouldn’t define that as a suspension if they don’t return to the classroom that day?

MR McNAIR: I would put that in the equivalent. If you compare this to a mainstream school, where a student might actually spend the time for the rest of the day in the office or something like that. So I would compare it that way, and also as Mr Glyde pointed out before, where you’ve got to consider the context we are working in. This is not a mainstream school, we are talking about students that have got high needs, generally low resistance, can have anger management issues. Sometimes they do need time to cool down and they also need – as Ms Guppy pointed out, this is for the safety and wellbeing of everyone.

And if they are in an agitated state then it’s actually not helpful for the students in the room that are trying to learn, and it’s actually not helpful for that particular individual as well. So that would be why they would be removed from the class. So the suspension, as defined in the MOU, comes to be more than a day. So I wouldn’t consider being removed from the class for the remainder of the day as a suspension, and we wouldn’t call that a suspension.


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MR GOODWIN: And so what do you have – what would – what do you have regard to when considering whether to suspend a child?

MR McNAIR: It depends on the incident. I mean, if you – typically, something like an assault or particularly threatening and aggressive behaviour.

MR GOODWIN: And how do you determine the period that you will suspend a particular child? By what reference to what rules or guidelines do you make that decision?

MR McNAIR: There’s not a little matrix where you can line up the actual behaviour with a time. We discuss it with myself and the senior teacher, an appropriate period of time. And also, to provide further context, that doesn’t happen a lot, as well. So it’s not what you would call a common occurrence.

MR GOODWIN: So not many people are suspended from – not many children are suspended from Tivendale School?

MR McNAIR: For two or more days.

MR GOODWIN: And has that always been the case in your experience there, from 2013?

MR McNAIR: I don’t have the exact figures. The time periods are decided by the – ultimately the time periods are decided by the principal. So it’s up to the principal to decide exactly how long.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Mr Goodwin, I know this is an interesting topic, but I’m looking at the time.

MR GOODWIN: Yes, I have gone on. I apologise, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Have you got many more topics that you need to explore with our panel?

MR GOODWIN: I can speed up a bit. Yes.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Good idea. We do have other witnesses waiting.

MR GOODWIN: I do. Well, my colleagues do. Yes.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Are they sticking pins into you?

MR GOODWIN: Most likely. I will ask one more question regarding the memorandum of understanding. It also mentions that Youth Justice Officers will be involved in the classroom. Can I ask, Mr Glyde, just in your experience how that works in practice?


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MR GLYDE: Certainly. The Youth Justice Officers line the students up outside the classroom at Owen Springs and bring them in as a group. And their primary role, I guess, is to observe – observe the classroom, observe the students. Education maintain control of the classroom and do the behaviour management necessary. They are there to intervene if something desperate or physical happens, and they would assist in the removal of students if necessary. We have some terrific Youth Justice Officers working at Owen Springs who will also get in and roll their sleeves up and help the students with their work, if that’s appropriate. And if we’ve got a large group, that has happened from time to time, and they will obviously keep an eye on what’s going on, but they will move around and help students with their work if necessary.

MR GOODWIN: I will move on to the fourth headline challenge that I mentioned, and staff support and training very briefly, and go to paragraph 27 of Ms Guppy’s first statement, which states that:

From a wider departmental perspective, the underlying availability and opportunities and requirements for PD of teachers at the schools within the detention facilities are the same with other teachers in the system.

Ms Guppy, do you consider that, considering the specific challenges associated of which – and the specific context in which Mr Glyde and Mr McNair have both discussed around the challenges of being a teacher in a detention centre, shouldn’t more professional development be specifically targeted for staff working at detention centres to help support them do their job?

MS GUPPY: Elements of their professional development may be tailored specifically to the context because, as both Mr Glyde and Mr McNair have pointed out, their contexts are very different. However, the overarching concept of the provision of professional development for our staff applies equally to all of our staff irrespective of the context that they are working in, and our staff work in a myriad of different contexts. So my statement there was to say that the professional development of all teachers is of vital importance to us, and we have professional development and learning available for all of our staff. However, the point that there are particular elements of professional development tailored to the context, absolutely that’s important.

MR GOODWIN: And can I move on to move my fifth headline challenge, being Aboriginal cultural awareness and access to culture. Ms Guppy, you mention in your statement, and you attach – and I don’t think I will take you to it – but you attach some data regarding the numbers of staff and staff to student ratios in both MG2 and MG3. That shows, if I read it correctly, that there has only been one indigenous staff member in the Department of Education at Tivendale over the past 10 years and usually one, and at most two over five terms at Owen Springs over the relevant period. And that typically has been the Aboriginal – or the indigenous education worker over the relevant period.


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MS GUPPY: Yes.

MR GOODWIN: Would you agree that that’s less than ideal?

MS GUPPY: And that is why we now have special measures where with the advertising of all of our positions our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander applicants are considered first, before any other applicants, and obviously the job description has to be met or the individual has to be able to demonstrate their capacity to meet those requirements in a reasonable period of time, and so we are now seeing the growth in our Aboriginal and Islander employees across our agency. Those same provisions will apply, and do apply now, to the recruitment of staff to the schools in the detention centres. We do want to see more, is the short answer to your question, counsel.

MR GOODWIN: Do you know why it took until 2016 to mandate those special measures?

MS GUPPY: The – the special measures has come about through the Office of the Commissioner of Public Employment, and so this is a whole of government initiative.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Do you know the reason why it has taken so long, 2016, before this initiative has been put in place?

MS GUPPY: I don’t have a ready explanation to your question, Commissioner, but I’m very pleased that those measures are now in place. I’m also very pleased to be able to see that our numbers of Aboriginal and Islander employees within the agency is growing.


MR GOODWIN: Two final areas that I will ask questions about. One is about English as a second language issues, and particularly for indigenous detainees who may speak traditional languages. Mr McNair, have you dealt with young detainees who – for whom English is their second or third or fourth language?

MR McNAIR: Yes. We have a lot of – a lot of our students have got English as a second, third, or fourth language.

MR GOODWIN: Have Aboriginal interpreters been ever used in the detention centre context to assist those – any of those students in your experience?

MR McNAIR: I’ve never asked for one during school time.

MR GOODWIN: Mr Glyde, has Owen Springs ever used the services of Aboriginal interpreters to assist any student who might speak a traditional language in Owen Springs school?


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MR GLYDE: We – we have not experienced a need for that. We’ve – in my experience we’ve been able to communicate with – with all of our students.

MR GOODWIN: During the course of this week a Youth Justice Officer gave evidence that he had seen teachers asking students not to speak in their traditional language. Have either or any of you ever asked that – asked a student not to speak in their language or seen a teacher do so?

MR GLYDE: Yes.

MR GOODWIN: When did that happen?

MR GLYDE: That’s happened on a few occasions, and specifically for the fact that it was quite apparent that the student was ridiculing and being offensive by the reaction of the other students, and the fact that there was other students telling the teachers involved what that student was saying. We asked him to refrain from speaking in that language, and that we all – we use a tongue that we all understand, which is English in this classroom. That has happened on a couple of occasions and, yes, as in all schools the fellows are quick to dob their mates if they deem they’ve done something wrong, and it has been quite apparent to me on a couple of occasions that those students weren’t talking about their work, they were speaking in a derogatory fashion to one or more staff members.

MR GOODWIN: Wouldn’t the better approach, Mr Glyde – would be to use your step process to warn the child regarding the content of behaviour rather than to ask them not to speak their traditional language at all?

MR GLYDE: One of our rules, classroom rules, is to show respect. And – or not to engage in disrespectful behaviour. and if we deemed on that occasion, they would get a warning for that. They wouldn’t be removed from the class by any means, just a reminder, a general reminder, “We speak English in the class, can you please remember that.” That’s – this is – it is no big deal.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: But, Mr Glyde - - -

COMMISSIONER GOODA: There’s a – there’s a different issue between speaking language and being disrespectful.

MR GLYDE: Yes, agreed.

COMMISSIONER GOODA: So how do you separate that out when someone is talking - - -

MR GLYDE: Well, look, I’m not saying for one minute, Commissioner, that every time a student speaks a language that we pull them up on it and demand that they stop. If they are working side-by-side here, and they are discussing work in language, that’s fine. You know, we will let that through to the keeper. But it’s when –


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obviously, there are circumstances when that’s not what’s happening and that’s what I’m talking about.

COMMISSIONER GOODA: But I understand that, but I’m making the point, there is a difference between telling people to stop speaking in language and stop being disrespectful.

MR GLYDE: Exactly. Yes. So I don’t – it’s not treated in the fashion, “Stop speaking language”, it’s, “Can you please speak in a – so that we can all understand what you are saying, because it is disrespectful that we don’t understand each other because we are talking differently.”

COMMISSIONER GOODA: Well, maybe have they ever thought about having teachers who can teach in language out there, maybe?

MR GLYDE: Well, that’s beyond my control.

COMMISSIONER GOODA: We went to the Yipirinya School, and they have teachers teaching in language.

MR McNAIR: Yes. Look, it’s the – any of those things have got nothing to do with any disrespect to their traditional language, it’s the – where you’re in a context where we have students from all over the Territory, and they could speak any number of different languages from any different part of the Territory. So, you know, you would have to be fairly – you know, that sort of thing. If you were in that particular community, or some schools are bilingual schools or things like that, that can be managed there because, I guess, most bilingual schools you would either be in English or in that particular language, whereas in our context you wouldn’t have – unless someone could speak every language and be able to do that, it would be – that would be quite difficult. And I would also like to – that speaking – being told to speak English is more to do with a – those issues with either teasing or bullying or something of the sort where there is not much - - -

COMMISSIONER GOODA: Can I pull you up. Can you see how disrespectful that would be to an Aboriginal person, “Just speak English”?

MR McNAIR: Look, I’m not an Aboriginal person, I – but I could take – you know, if you say that’s disrespectful.

MS GUPPY: Yes. I acknowledge the point that you’re making, Commissioner, and I think Mr Glyde was referring there to a circumstance where, in the judgment of the teacher the – it was the exchange that was the problem as opposed to the language, and - - -

COMMISSIONER GOODA: That’s the only point I want to make.


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MS GUPPY: And I think – I mean, that was at the heart of it. It was that the exchange between the two students, from what he has relayed, potentially was going to lead to an issue between those two students, and your point is made in regard to that.

MR GLYDE: Yes, Commissioner, I would just like to clarify that. We are very culturally sensitive, and as I said, it referred to an act of defiance or disrespect. Or it may refer to one student shouting out in language to another student across the room, and that student reacting badly to it. We’re unaware, we can’t deal with it, we don’t know what’s going on, what they’re talking about. So we ask them, “Can you please – we all speak English in this classroom.” I have asked specifically before, we’ve had an older family member and a younger one, a young fellow who has just come in, and he was unaware what was going on. I did ask his elder brother to speak to him in language and explain the systems and processes that were going on in the classroom. So as – it’s not – we are not trying to, you know, put a stop on them using their natural tongue, it’s just a process that we need to observe to maintain the order of the classroom.


MR GOODWIN: I have no further questions, Commissioners.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Mr Goodwin.

MR GOODWIN: I believe there are a number of parties with leave to cross-examine.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: There are, yes.

MR GOODWIN: Mr Woodroffe is moving first.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you, Mr Woodroffe. Could I ask those lawyers who are going to ask questions to keep in mind what is in the statements of these – our panel, they are very extensive and comprehensive, and try not to revisit things that we can find out from the statements as well. We do have several more witnesses that we would like to hear from this afternoon. I’m just asking you to keep that in mind if you would. Thanks, Mr Woodroffe.

MR WOODROFFE: Thank you, Commissioners, I will be of very short compass.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I’m not directing the comment to you. You are always quite concise.

MR WOODROFFE: I represent the North Australian Aboriginal Justice Agency in Darwin, or NAAJA. Following on from the last topic of conversation it’s recognised, obviously as you’ve indicated, you are not going to know every Aboriginal language, but is there an opportunity for consultation with Aboriginal


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principals, Aboriginal teachers, and Aboriginal staff in the key regional communities around these – around the locations of your schools, for their involvement in understanding of their teaching methodologies, so in fact we have a process of teaching the teachers. You can be taught and learn from Aboriginal principals and Aboriginal teachers?

MR GLYDE: Yes. Well, in response to that. Commissioners, certainly that – if that was easy to facilitate that would be a great thing to happen. But unfortunately it’s not all that easy. Myself, having spent 36 years teaching in the Territory, I have had some extensive experience dealing with Indigenous students and teaching them over the years, and having very strong relationships with them and their families through not only school, but involvement in the local community activities, football and cricket and coaching and so on. So, you know, I feel that – I do understand Indigenous kids. We’ve got some highly experienced staff in our centres who work – who have worked extensively with Indigenous students.

I hear what you say, and we certainly do interact with our co-teachers in the bush as often as possible, when we get together for whole of school professional development days. What you’re suggesting is a good thing, but how easy it would be to manage I’m – I’m unsure.

MR WOODROFFE: But there could be a process where you work with the key communities in which you see the detention – from the detention population that come from key communities around these regions?

MR GLYDE: And we do. We have an elders program, and we are visited by elders from different communities on a regular basis, they come into the centre and they will visit the classroom and they will sit down and they will talk to the kids, and the kids have the opportunity to talk to them about any issues they might be having or what’s happening with them in their learning and education programs. So that is a really good program that happens, and I believe that happens at Tivendale School too.

MR McNAIR: It’s called the Elders Program.

MR WOODROFFE: Do you have any response or are you okay? Look, I will move on to the next topic in relation to information. Mr Glyde, you indicated before about how you can go into situations of assessments of going in cold and I understand there is now a process for information sharing between the two schools in relation to ..... but – and that’s basically to deal with the situation where there’s movement from family networks from Central Australia to the Top End, or transfers between the detention facilities, but can I indicate we have a lot of kids who come or live in cross-border communities and they may end up in other jurisdictions, and other justice systems, and other detention facilities. Is there a similar sort of information service or sharing between other detention facilities in other jurisdictions?


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MR McNAIR: I guess I can only answer in relation to interstate from requests I’ve had from interstate schools. So if a student of ours enrols in a – or wants to enrol in a school interstate, then there’s contact between us and that. That’s the extent of my experience or dealings with it, yes.

MS GUPPY: I think your question was specifically if there is a formal communication pipe in place between our schools within the detention centres in the Northern Territory - - -

MR WOODROFFE: And other jurisdictions.

MS GUPPY: - - - and other schools in other detention facilities interstate? Is that correct?

MR WOODROFFE: That’s correct, yes.

MS GUPPY: I’m not aware of that existing.

MR WOODROFFE: But you would endorse such a recommendation or such a process to be – or memorandum of understanding to be developed?

MS GUPPY: Communication and connectivity is – and networking is something that we always support.

MR WOODROFFE: Perhaps, Mr McNair, if I could just go to your experience in relation to community legal education that occurs at Tivendale School in Don Dale. You would be familiar with such sort of the Indigenous Hip Hop Project that occurred in 2015, and perhaps if you could just speak to what that involved and the engagement of the kids.

MR McNAIR: Yes. I believe the Indigenous Hip Hop Project was organised by NAAJA. They brought a group of producers and musicians in, they had a – they were to produce a music video on a particular theme that they had already decided, so they did that over four days, I believe. They came in – art and music are one of the – two of the big areas that the students who really engaged in, and that’s why previously when I mentioned in addition to literacy and numeracy, art and music are the other two big areas that we focus on. So, yes, they engaged with that project really well and enjoyed watching it on YouTube numerous – numerous occasions afterwards.

MR WOODROFFE: Okay. 8239 hits, I believe. Or likes.

MR McNAIR: Well ..... 4000, but - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: And how many from Tivendale?


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MR WOODROFFE: There is also community legal education programs and services actually occur in the – out of terms – semester periods, with holiday programs, isn’t there?

MR McNAIR: Yes, I believe so.

MR WOODROFFE: And they – such things as community legal education, discussions about prosocial activity or prosocial sort of choices, and capacity building, and things of that nature occur as well?

MR McNAIR: I wasn’t – I wasn’t there for the last one, it was in – it happened I think three sessions. One was in our school holidays, and the other one was the first week back of term. I was on sick leave, so I don’t know the exact content of that one.

MR WOODROFFE: Okay. And, lastly, there’s also a cooking program that occurs at Tivendale School on Sundays. The Serving Thyme – for the transcript, T-h-y-m-e?

MR McNAIR: Yes, I believe there was. I’m not sure if it’s – I’m not sure if it continued when Terry left. Sorry.

MR WOODROFFE: A NAAJA youth justice worker involved not only a youth – a court judge and legal practitioners were involved in working with kids?

MR McNAIR: Yes. They use the kitchen facilities we had somewhat renovated to run our VET cooking program.

MR WOODROFFE: Okay. And those type of activities, community legal education, building relationships, are an important educational need, support need, as well within the detention system for you?

MR McNAIR: Can you sort of redirect or - - -

MR WOODROFFE: I will say it again. Community and legal education and support programs of this like are an important – you would see as an important feature as well?

MR McNAIR: There’s a range of – you know, there’s a range of subjects and things and some are organised by Territory Families, some are organised by us, and they are all obviously to benefit the students. So they – those are all important.

MR WOODROFFE: Thank you, Commissioners. Nothing further.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you, Mr Woodroffe. Ms Graham.

MS GRAHAM: I represent the Central Australian Aboriginal Legal Aid Service. You mentioned some of the assessments that are done on children. I particularly am


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here to talk about intellectual disability assessment or assessment for foetal alcohol spectrum disorder, or hearing difficulties, or other physical impairments. Doesn’t Department of Education collect data about the number and type of referrals that are made for those types of assessments for children kept in detention?

MS GUPPY: Could you just repeat the last part of what you said, because I didn’t hear it clearly.

MS GRAHAM: Certainly. Does the Department of Education keep data about the number and type of referrals that are made for those kinds of assessments for children that are in detention?

MS GUPPY: We keep it for children who are referred to our school support services as part of the referral process. The school that they are attending at that point in time would be identified, so there would be data – there would be data there.

MS GRAHAM: So that data would be available for the Owen Springs School and the Tivendale School. Is that what you’re saying?

MS GUPPY: Yes. If the referral was made from the school to our school support services the data would be there but, as was given in response earlier today, is that a number of the youth detainees in fact have been referred when they were much younger and it has been a combination then of their disrupted connection to education with poor attendance that may mean that the provision of service to them in regard to their diagnosis has been disrupted as well.

MS GRAHAM: Mr Glyde, are you able to give an estimate of the number of referrals that have been made for these types of assessments - - -

MS GUPPY: I haven’t got that. I haven’t got that data in my head.

MS GRAHAM: I was actually directing the question to Mr Glyde.

MS GUPPY: Sorry.

MS GRAHAM: And maybe he can estimate in the last six months, say, from the Owen Springs School.

MR GLYDE: As a classroom teacher that’s out of my area of responsibility, but we do make referrals through Territory Families and we – they will get dealt with far more quickly that way. So if we go to student services it can be a fairly lengthy drawn-out process because of their case load and whatever. So, yes, as we don’t have the luxury of having an on-site psychologist and someone able to carry out tests, but the they – Territory Families can access them as the carers of the students, temporary carers, they can access those people quite quickly.


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MS GRAHAM: Is this an area where it would be fair to say that much more funding is required to effectively be able to assess and diagnose and then provide special measures for children in relation to these types of conditions?

MR GLYDE: I believe if a student has got a condition, yes, let’s get it sorted out any way we can.

MS GRAHAM: Ms Guppy, you mention in your statement the cultures of collaboration program - - -

MS GUPPY: Yes.

MS GRAHAM: - - - as being a cultural competence training program for staff. Is that training specific only to teaching staff, or is that something that’s available also to Youth Justice Officers?

MS GUPPY: It’s a piece of professional learning that we were using specifically with our staff as opposed – we don’t have jurisdiction over the Youth Justice Officers.

MS GRAHAM: So it’s a Department of Education training program?

MS GUPPY: Yes.

MS GRAHAM: And it’s now an online model?

MS GUPPY: Yes.

MS GRAHAM: Does that mean it’s dependent on staff to access the training rather than going to some session where they are addressed by a trainer and can interact with a trainer?

MS GUPPY: Correct. And it provides the opportunity for people to be able to undertake that training wherever they are, instead of having to take staff out of their workplace and bring them to a central point. So it’s – yes, it’s available online to all of our staff.

MS GRAHAM: You also mention in your second statement an induction program to be coordinated by the indigenous education worker for – that’s to be looked at for Darwin, for the Tivendale School. That’s at paragraph 163 of your second statement, Ms Guppy.

MS GUPPY: Thank you. Just let me turn to that. In terms of immediate future plans, yes.

MS GRAHAM: Yes. Can you see there, I think it’s the second dot point, an induction program.


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MS GUPPY: Yes.

MS GRAHAM: Is that something that’s also planned for the Owen Springs School in Alice Springs?

MS GUPPY: It’s not specified there, but it could be, because Owen Springs too has an Aboriginal and Islander education worker and, in consultation with Territory Families, that can be replicated.

MS GRAHAM: You would certainly support it being replicated also in Alice Springs?

MS GUPPY: I would.

MS GRAHAM: I have some questions now in relation to pre-release planning. And these questions might be best for you, Mr Glyde. How far in advance of a child’s release does that planning start?

MR GLYDE: Look, as I outlined earlier today, we are unaware of when a child is to be released. Most of the detainees in our establishment are on remand. We don’t have a release date for them. If they are sentenced, they are sent north, so we have a child – or a detainee that may go to court, they could come back to us, they could be there for two days. We have students there overnight, we have students there for two days and we have students there for a number of weeks. So in terms of planning around a release date, it becomes a very complex situation.

MS GRAHAM: You’ve mentioned the attendance of Alice Outcomes, Gateways and the St Joseph’s staff. I think that’s a relatively recent event; is that right?

MR GLYDE: It is, that’s correct.

MS GRAHAM: It may be too early to say, but have you seen any improvements in either subsequent enrolments or attendance of children at school in the community as a result of that engagement?

MR GLYDE: Look, I believe that the opportunity for – when those people came in and spoke to the detainees they did it really well and they presented their programs in a positive light, and I know for a fact that some of our students have gone on – I haven’t got raw data to refer to, but certainly a number of our students have enrolled in those institutions. Yes.

MS GRAHAM: Can you see a role for the teaching staff that are in the custodial setting, or in the detention centre, being advocates on behalf of the children in relation to accessing a school in the community where that school is refusing to accept their enrolment?


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MR GLYDE: Look, that hasn’t been an issue. Off the top – I haven’t had to respond to that, so – look, we would share information between schools as we do with all schools. And if it’s in the best interests of the child certainly. That’s what the crux of the issue is, what’s in the best interests of the child. And if sharing information is going to facilitate their enrolment in a school, and better their welfare, certainly.

MS GRAHAM: Mr Woodroffe asked some questions about community – rather, legal education in the detention centres.

MR GLYDE: Yes.

MS GRAHAM: CAALAS lawyers and Aboriginal liaison support officers attend the Alice Springs Youth Detention Centre to provide legal education?

MR GLYDE: That is correct, yes.

MS GRAHAM: And you certainly support facilitating that being able to occur.

MR GLYDE: Absolutely, yes. They come out on a fortnightly basis and spend an hour and a half with the children – with the detainees and it’s – yes, it’s really good. They do things that are very pertinent to the detainees. Just yesterday they did a session on obtaining a drivers licence. So it’s life skills and things that they are going to encounter. Dealing with police, their roles and responsibilities in the community, the justice system, and so forth.

MS GRAHAM: And you certainly consider it useful that the children can be as informed as possible about legal matters including their rights in detention?

MR GLYDE: Yes.

MS GRAHAM: Those are my questions. Thank you.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you, Ms Graham. Thank you, Ms Lee.

MS GOODHAND: Ms Goodhand.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Would you indicate to the panel who you represent, Ms Lee?

MS GOODHAND: My name is Goodhand, and I represent - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I beg your pardon, Ms Goodhand. I’m sorry, I’m looking straight past you.

MS GOODHAND: That’s okay. I represent Dylan Voller. My first question is a question for Mr Glyde. In your statement, in pages 13 and 14, you refer to the – how


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to deal with behaviour and in paragraph 14, ultimately, the student can be removed from the classroom?

MR GLYDE: Correct.

MS GOODHAND: Just in relation to that, are you able to say to your knowledge whether behave of that kind would be written up by Youth Justice Officers as an incident?

MR GLYDE: Yes, it would be.

MS GOODHAND: And do you know if it could also be treated as an institutional charge, to your knowledge?

MR GLYDE: I am unaware of that, but certainly the teachers would write up an incident report every time a student is removed from the classroom, and the supervising YJO would do the same thing.

MS GOODHAND: And in it the – if you were attending a community school, how would that – how would a student be treated differently, if at all, from that procedure described in paragraphs 13 and 14?

MR GLYDE: Well, each school has its own specific behaviour management program, so their steps and processes may be slightly different, but I would say that on the whole it would be much the same across most schools, or all schools in the Northern Territory. We all adhere to the departmental behaviour management guidelines and the principals use their discretion to take appropriate action.

MS GOODHAND: Okay. My next question is for Mr McNair. For the purpose of this question I would like you to assume that what I say in fact occurred. So I would like you to assume, between 2012 and 2014 at the Alice Springs Youth Detention Centre and Don Dale, my client was removed from class for being too disruptive, and he was not provided with alternative schooling on an ongoing basis. If you assume that is correct, would you agree that that’s unsatisfactory?

MS BROWNHILL: I object there. It’s unclear what’s meant by “on an ongoing basis”.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: It might be very difficult to truncate the fact situation that you want to convey, of course, to the panel. And without that it’s really difficult to make a judgment call of that kind, isn’t it?

MS GOODHAND: Sure. Sorry. I’m trying to shorten, so that I don’t go over my time limit, but I can break it down a bit if that assists. So between 2012 and 2014, while my client was a detainee at Alice Springs Youth Detention Centre and Don Dale, he was removed from school at the detention centre for being too disruptive


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and he was unable to return to school, and he was not provided with any alternative education.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Do you have a time period that was withdrawn from school?

MR McNAIR: I would probably - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I mean, not between – just not – the span of years – six months, nine months, 10 months.

MS GOODHAND: After the age of 13 he was not returned to the classroom.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: That’s helpful. Thank you.

MS GOODHAND: Would you agree, if that in fact did occur, that would be unsatisfactory?

MR McNAIR: I would have to probably respond on an incident basis, or case – you know, you sort of put everything together and said this has not happened. Like, is there an example or - - -

MS GUPPY: If I could just ask – I mean, we would need to look at the context. We need to know what are the circumstances around the proposition that you are putting there. We are quite clear that if a child is removed from the classroom for a period of time, and it’s two days or more, that we will provide work for that student. I mean, that is what we have undertaken to do. So – but we would – we would really need to know the specific circumstance.

MR GLYDE: And I could say with absolute conviction, Commissioners, that no 13-year-old would have been denied education on an ongoing basis.

MS GOODHAND: And so based on your answer, Ms Guppy, if an alternative – if you assumed that an education – alternative education wasn’t provided, would you agree then that that’s unsatisfactory?

MS BROWNHILL: Well, I object to the question, because it has already been answered to the extent that it could be in this hypothetical situation.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. I think it probably has, because Ms Guppy said after two days it should be and would be under the policy provided. So, if indeed it be the case that it was not provided, then that has to be worse than unsatisfactory.

MS GOODHAND: Okay. Thank you, Commissioner.


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COMMISSIONER WHITE: So I think that inference can readily be drawn, even in a theoretical sense.

MS GOODHAND: Now, can I ask you to – sorry, Mr McNair, can I ask you to assume another situation, another scenario. In 2014, I would like you to assume that my client – whilst at the Don Dale Centre, my client asked a member of teaching staff if he could do his year 10 certificate, and he was told that he could not – he only do it in his room by himself without assistance, if he wanted to do it. If you assume that in fact occurred, would you agree that that’s unsatisfactory?

MR McNAIR: It would depend on the situation, again. How old is this hypothetical student?

MS GOODHAND: So is your answer – the age would make a difference to your answer?

MR McNAIR: Well I would probably need even more context. Were they attending school? Were they not - - -

MS GOODHAND: So if they weren’t attending school.

MR McNAIR: Yes. Why weren’t they attending school?

MS GOODHAND: They were excluded from school.

MR McNAIR: Why?

MS GOODHAND: The assumption - - -

MR McNAIR: I’m not trying to be difficult, you just asked a really broad hypothetical.

MS GOODHAND: I understand the difficulty. If you assume, for the purpose of my question, they were included from school from being too disruptive and told they could not come back to the classroom, but they then asked the teacher if they could undertake their year 10 certificate, and they were told they could not unless they did it by themselves in their room alone without assistance, would that be unsatisfactory?

MR McNAIR: Yes. I’m still having trouble trying to get the whole situation in my head.

MS GUPPY: There are possibilities. If the student is wanting to undertake year 10, the general approach to that would be an enrolment through the Northern Territory School of Distance Education where there is material provided, there is contact from the teachers there and what in those circumstances would be provided is tutorial support for the student to – that’s if that were the scenario, but I don’t – I don’t know the specifics of the scenario that you’re presenting.


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MS GOODHAND: Thank you, Commissioners. Those are my questions.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Thank you, Ms Goodhand.

MR GOODWIN: I don’t think there is anyone left.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Mr Goodwin.

MR GOODWIN: Unless the Solicitor-General would like to ask questions?

MS BROWNHILL: No.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: No, the Solicitor-General does it by tender.

MR GOODWIN: My apologies. I have no re-examination.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. Then it just remains for me to thank you very much Mr McNair, Ms Guppy, Mr Glyde for your assistance to us. I hope that you felt that it was a useful exercise to present together. It certainly was very helpful, I think, to us to do that. And also thank you for your extensive written statements, which provide us with lots of information and we will be able to draw on those statements.

MS GUPPY: Good.


MR GLYDE: Thank you.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I think you can withdraw now.

MR GOODWIN: I believe the next within is Mr Dighton’s. I presume the Commissioners will want to sit on, to attempt to finish as many - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: To keep more or less to our program, that’s true. Now, as a consequence, it means there will be a lot of stress on our transcriber.

MR GOODWIN: That was the matter I was about to raise.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Alright. Thanks very much. Yes. You three are free to go.

<THE WITNESSES WITHDREW [3.28 pm]

MR DIGHTON: Commissioners, I call Dr Christine Connors.


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<CHRISTINE MARIE CONNORS, AFFIRMED [3.28 pm]

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you very much. Please be seated. Thank you, Mr Dighton.

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DIGHTON [3.29 pm]

MR DIGHTON: Thank you. Could you please tell the Commission and board of inquiry your full name?---Christine Marie Connors.

If you need a bit of time to prepare your materials, that’s fine.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Perhaps if Dr Connors can take a few minutes to get settled. It always takes a few minutes a few minutes to do that. Especially finding everyone looking at you while you do so.

THE WITNESS: Dr Christine Marie Connors.

MR DIGHTON: And you are the general manager for the Darwin region and strategic primary healthcare in the Top End Health Service?---I am.

Your statement attaches a number of annexures which set out the relevant policies and procedures that apply to the provision of healthcare to detainees in youth detention?---They do, and they apply across both Darwin and Alice Springs.

And before we turn to those, if we could deal with some general topics in your statement. At paragraph 7 you refer to the primary care information system, which provides a single record arising from 54 remote communities, and then also at paragraph 18 you note the information provided by the various health organisations and hospitals can be centrally stored on that same system. So it is clear, the PCIS is an information system which records in a single and centralised place all of the medical records of an individual available on the public health system; is that right?---No. It’s a primary healthcare information system. So it’s an electronic medical record, similar to what your GP probably has, but with greater functionality. The unique feature is it’s a web-based system and what it means is that each person on the system has one record. So whether they are seen in Alice Springs, at the youth detention centre, whether they are seen in Yuendumu, whether they are seen in Don Dale, whether they are seen in Maningrida, it’s one record. So that’s obviously hugely advantageous. So it’s used within the NT Government primary healthcare centres, but we can link to information available through the Aboriginal community controlled health service through registering people for the shared record. The NT has had a shared record mechanism for many years, which is a passive read-only system, and so we can see if they have had recent testing or recent diagnoses or recent medications that were provided through the community controlled system.

.ROYAL COMMISSION 16.3.17 P-1267 C.M. CONNORS XN©Commonwealth of Australia MR DIGHTON

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And, similarly, we can access discharge summaries from the hospital and we can access pathology results and x-ray results and other information, and then we also within the – within the youth detention centre the nurses can then also access the other government primary care system, the community care information many system, which has information from the mental health service, the Alcohol and other Drugs Services and we also can access separately the hospital system if we feel that there is something missing that is not available through the primary care information system.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: What about child protection? Does that feed into that system as well?---Child protection is stored in the community care information system, but is not available for us to read.

Would it be useful, on occasions, to be able to do so?---Yes, I think it would. I mean, certainly the ability to share information effectively and in a timely manner is incredibly useful. You know, there’s a number of caveats that I’m sure the child protection services would have around that, but certainly, you know, we have had circumstances where there may have been information available within their system that would have been useful.

Well, we have certainly seen a lot of examples in more recent times where, disappointingly, the failure to share information across departments and organisations has had rather dreadful outcomes. So the privacy issues presumably, which are paramount, would be able to be managed, one would think, in a system?---Well, I would think so, absolutely.

Right. Thank you. Sorry, Mr Dighton.

MR DIGHTON: No, thank you Commissioner.

The practical effect, and I think you hinted at it on two occasions in your answer, was at the point of admission into detention whoever is conducting the assessment should have a reasonably comprehensive record of their interaction with the health system at that point?---Yes. Now – you know, it will depend of course, because some children may not have had much contact, although most children will have had at least contact around immunisations and routine health checks. I mean, we do know for Aboriginal children in remote communities – you know, on average they are being seen at least half a dozen times a year, according to our key performance indicator data. So we would expect to have some information.

And to add to Commissioner White’s query, the – are there any other tranches or records that the system doesn’t pick up that you think would be helpful in any other initial assessment?---Look, I think probably the child protection information would be the other useful one. Particularly, more so, some of the demographic information in terms of who is the relevant case manager if a child is under child protection, so that we can make sure that we are communicating with them and providing advice to them in terms of issues that are being identified.


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And on two very practical levels, firstly the nurse or doctor conducting the assessment has access to all the information contained for the individual?---Yes.

And the – in terms of the infrastructure there are computers – access available so there is no issue with actually accessing it from the detention centre?---No – no, there is, absolutely. And in part of that initial reception screening the nurse will do a very comprehensive review looking at multiple points in the system to make sure that they have identified any medication the child might be on or any serious illnesses that they have been diagnosed with, etcetera.

And at – continuing with your statement at paragraphs 13 and 14, you draw attention to the language of the regulations, which are relevant here at this point of first admission. The specific requirement that a comprehensive medical and health assessment be conducted within the first 24 hours. For the purposes of the relevant policies and procedures that you attach, how does the health service construe the word “comprehensive” for these purposes?---So the initial assessment is really about making sure that the child is safe to be held in custody, or in detention: that they don’t have an acute physical illness that is likely to compromise them, that they don’t have an acute mental illness, that they are unlikely to be withdrawing from substances and having significant side effects, that there’s no known other illnesses that we need to be aware of and make youth justice staff aware of, that if they are on any medications that we are providing them with those medications. So it’s really a safety check to make sure that there is nothing that is likely to cause compromise for that child in the next few days.

And are there limits upon the degree or scope of assessments that can be conducted meaningfully within that 24 hour timeframe?---Well, I mean it’s limited in terms of, you know, just timing, because frequently young people are coming in, in the late afternoon and the evening, and then are frequently going to court the next morning and so the nurse is attempting to ensure that we’ve done those basic checks, the safety checks to make sure that that child is okay, that they are okay to go to court, that they haven’t got an obvious psychotic illness that might compromise them in the court. So, yes, we are doing – it’s effectively a safety check, you might say.

And if we can turn now to the detail contained in the policies and start with attachment CC1.16. It should come to the screen in front of you, or if you have got it in front – a hardcopy?---Sure.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: If you look at the screen, Dr Connors, you will see the documents there?---I have got it on the screen, so yes.

MR DIGHTON: The – attachment B to your annexure suggests that this is a draft that was drafted last year, but it has not been implemented yet; is that the case?---Look, it is effectively being followed because it’s based on the practice that’s occurring. The process of developing the procedures, we have a professional practice nurse who works with the teams in both Darwin and Alice Springs, and she will be gathering the information and the evidence, and looking at relevant policies


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in other jurisdictions, and then develops it up, and the process of getting the clinicians coming together to then give the final stamp of approval can just take a bit of time.

So it’s advanced?---It’s effectively the practice that people are implementing.

Right. Thank you. And to be clear, it’s going – it will apply to the Don Dale and Alice Springs detention centres?---It does.

And the – under Purpose it states the – meeting the obligations to youth received in Darwin, Katherine and Alice Springs. Does the reference to Katherine mean the Katherine watch-house?---Yes, that’s around the watch-house.

And – but that watch-house is not considered a detention centre for the purpose of this policy?---No. But there’s a – I think we have got some reference in here in terms of the initial – the initial assessment, fit for custody assessment that are undertaken in the watch-house because most of these youths, if they are arrested by police, will be taken through a watch-house environment before they come to the detention centre.

Right. So the – that assessment is not equivalent to what will occur in the detention centre though?---No, no, no. That’s a very, very basic assessment.

Would the professional who is conducting it have access to PCIS?---They do also have access to it. And so, again, if they have any concerns they will be checking that record and making sure there is nothing that needs to be alerted either that the child might need to be taken to ED for example for a further assessment, or that they need to alert the nurse in the youth detention centre to review the child sooner.

Right. Thank you. On the third page of that attachment there is a flow chart, and if we can deal with the side that is the column of weekday first. It’s the case that the registered nurse conducts the initial assessment within the 24-hour period. And is that the onsite nurse who will be there between 9.30 and 2.30?---So in Don Dale during the week the nurse is on site between 7 and 3.30.

Thank you?---And on the weekends between 9 and 5.30. In Alice Springs, the nurse attends to the youth detention centre each day between 1 and 3.

Thank you. So on the previous page, if we go back to page 2 at the Top End, under the Top End section, that arrangement there has – and it’s in the red type, has been modified to expand the hours?---Are you looking at the watch-house hours?

Is that the –is that the watch-house, is it?---They’re the watch-house hours.

It’s only for the watch-house?---Yes.

Thank you?---Yes.


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Thank you. My apologies. Where do the nurses or the medical staff get drawn from? Are they full-time positions at the centre or do they come from other places?---No, they are part of our – sorry, you are talking about the youth detention staff?

Yes, youth detention, apologies?---So the youth detention staff are part of our primary healthcare team that provides a service to both the adult prison as well as youth detention. In – certainly in Don Dale we tend to have a smaller group of nurses who are mostly working at Don Dale, mostly rostered to work at Don Dale, and we’ve mostly had one doctor who has been the regular doctor for Don Dale. And in Alice Springs they are attempting to do the same process as well, but they are part of broader primary healthcare team. The watch-house nurses are a separate team because they work and function in a different way.

Right. And the doctor who will attend on the following day, approaching again – following again the flow chart on page 3, that – you referred to it before, it’s not a doctor who’s on-site but is visiting the centre from hospital in the instance of Darwin?---No, no, they are one of our primary healthcare doctors. So, again, in Alice Springs they will be in the adult prison and they will go over to Don Dale on a daily basis, Monday to Friday between 1 and 3, and they will undertake reception checks and other checks required at the time. In Darwin, we’ve got the doctor there on Wednesdays and Fridays as a regular schedule and they go on other days, Monday to Friday, as required for either a child that is well or a child at risk, for example, or if there’s a problem that’s identified through the reception screening.

Right. Thank you. And on the weekends, how will that examination - - -?---We don’t have any primary healthcare doctors available on the weekend.

Right. And that – if the primary assessment is done by a nurse, and then there is a review of that by the doctor, is that a review on the papers or is it a review by - - -?---No, no, every child is reviewed by the doctor. And, you know, the primary healthcare nurse will obviously flag any issues that they’ve identified in the medical record or from the initial screening and then the doctor will be reviewing them. Now, in Alice Springs they are seeing them the next working day, because they are on site and it’s easy to move across. In Darwin we’ve got structured times on the Wednesday and the Friday, unless there is problems identified, and then we will send someone over soon sooner.

Right. Thank you. If we could dwell on two particular type of assessments. The first is assessments for hearing, which you refer to in paragraph 27 of your statement, and you state there that in the past hearing has been – has not been routinely screened. Can you explain what you mean by “routinely” in that context?---Yes. Can I just ask what paragraph that was again.

Sorry, that was paragraph 27?---Okay. So, no, we haven’t been routinely screening. We don’t routinely screen any child in the Aboriginal population for hearing. We do screen for – we ask children in terms of ear problems such as ear discharge, pain, or


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if they think there is problems with hearing, but we are not undertaking routine hearing screening. Part of that is around availability of audiologists and being able to focus effort, however we have recently introduced a very basic hearing screen, so it’s not a full audiology assessment but it’s a much more basic hearing screen that the nurses are now undertaking in both Darwin and Alice Springs, and that really gives them a pass-fail mechanism. So then if they fail the audiologist then comes and does the formal audiology assessment, including a whole series of tests around middle ear functioning, etcetera.

And, on that point, can we turn to annexure – or attachment CC1.11. Is that document part of the new referral pathways for hearing where there has been a fail on the basic assessment?---Yes.

And is this currently in place in Darwin?---Yes. So we’ve implemented, in Darwin probably about three weeks ago now, we have screened – I think we’ve screened about 20 children, three of whom have failed, two have had their audiology assessments, both were normal. The third one, I think, the centre had to go into lockdown and they couldn’t have their assessment done, but they were rescheduled. And Alice Springs actually commenced their hearing screening today. So we needed to source the equipment, we needed to do the training for the nurses, so that they were familiar with the procedure, and we’ve set up the referral pathways with our hearing health program.

On that point of the hearing health program, if we can go to the bottom half of that document, the – what is set out there is self-explanatory. Has it been contemplated, the circumstance which is common in detention centres, where the child is only within the centre for a short period of time and may have left before the referral can take effect, and if there is any follow up that comes from that?---Look, if there was concerns, if the child had flagged that they had, you know, significant hearing problems or that they had infection – potential infection, then, yes, there would be follow up arranged. Our hearing health program that we run through both Top End and central Australian health service, they provide outreach services right across the NT to community controlled services as well as government Aboriginal primary healthcare services, and so we have had a significant expansion over the last seven years in terms of access to audiology and access to surgical services and so, in fact, as you know there is a report that was released just this week from the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare which is showing – you know, some significant improvements in terms of the proportion of children with hearing loss. So, again it’s not screening the whole population: it’s screening selected high risk groups within the population and amongst that group we are actually seeing a greater proportion of children with no hearing loss, and a significant reduction in children with moderate to severe hearing loss. So for, really, the first time – and I’ve been in the NT for a long time – we really seem to be getting some traction around reducing hearing impairment and the impacts of that for children.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Could you better identify that report that you just tantalisingly waved in the air, Dr Connors?---Yes. So it’s a report produced for us by


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the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare and was released on Tuesday this week around the Aboriginal Investment: Ear and Hearing Health Program.

Thank you.

MR DIGHTON: Thank you, Dr Connors. The second time type of assessment I wanted to cover for you was assessments or screening for foetal alcohol spectrum disorders. Is that something that is in train in your department or being considered by your department?---We are not routinely screening for foetal alcohol syndrome disorders in the youth detention centres. Look, there’s a number of challenges with screening for FASD. There’s no consensus across Australia in terms of current guidelines and what criteria should be used. There’s a small group of people with expertise in undertaking FASD assessments, and whilst our paediatricians could train in terms of doing some of that assessments, and whilst they certainly have some familiarity with looking for the more obvious features of FASD, I don’t think they would consider themselves to be experts in that process. I suspect, in terms of how we might be assessing children for FASD, it may well be something that we will have to look to partner with a jurisdiction elsewhere and look for the very small number of people with the expertise in this area. In terms of what proportion of children within the youth detention centre may have FASD, obviously we don’t know because we have not been routinely screening. But what I can say is that 75 per cent of the Aboriginal people in the NT live in remote communities, the vast majority of remote communities are alcohol free, have deliberately had alcohol restrictions put in place by Aboriginal owners for many years. There’s a small amount of communities that have licensed clubs and the common behaviour within most of those communities, I can’t speak to every one of those communities, but most of the communities that I’m familiar with, is that pregnant women are not – you know, people disapprove of pregnant women drinking, and it is not a common thing for pregnant women to be drinking in those communities. In the regional centres, so Alice Springs, Darwin, Katherine, Tennant Creek, unfortunately, women will be drinking when they are pregnant. But, as I said, we don’t know the prevalence. We would suspect that some of these children would have FASD, but it may be less than what we might find in other jurisdictions where there is a greater proportion of Aboriginal people living in a metropolitan area, for example.

And so you have cited there a number of challenges. Is it the case that these are actively being pursued or considered, or has any progress on that front stalled in terms of – in the youth detention context, at least?---So, we have not – we haven’t been thinking about what is a routine mechanism for screening for FASD. The things that we have been having discussions with the paediatricians and with others about is the broader cognitive and developmental disorders that children may well have. Again, frequently these children are in detention for very short periods of time, which is a good thing. So trying to have a very comprehensive process where you are attempting to screen every child is not going to be feasible. Many of these children, unfortunately, are under the care of child protection and potentially a better option would be, not so much for young children, because – I mean, not every young child will need a comprehensive assessment just because they are under child


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protection, but certainly for older children to then look at how we might partner and – with adolescent paediatricians and with some assistance of interstate experts, be doing a more comprehensive assessment before a child even comes into contact with the youth justice system, because then you would actually have the potential for, you know, a more comprehensive treatment plan which may influence their behaviour, and may be able to keep them away from circumstances where they come into contact with the justice system. Again, we’ve done some work around that, but we haven’t progressed that to a formal stage, but I think that that would be a more appropriate mechanism. I’ve seen a statement from an expert from Victoria and in fact Victoria has in fact implemented a similar system and I think we would be very interested in looking at that.

Moving past the admission stage and to the period of the incarceration for the young person, the relevant form, if I can take it to you, is CC2.2, attachment CC2.2. They are – if they wish to get an appointment on a health issue while they are in the detention centre, they fill out this form and place it in the medical box; is that right?---Yes.

And the – to your understanding, is there any time when a detainee won’t be able to get access to the medical box in a timely way? For instance, if they are in isolation for any period of time?---Well, clearly if they are in isolation and they are being held at-risk, then they are being reviewed on a daily basis. And the youth justice - - -

I’m sorry, if I can just pause you there, because that’s an interesting point. Isolation and at-risk are not always the same?---Okay.

So if we are dealing just with isolation first?---So – no, they wouldn’t be. I would assume they wouldn’t be able to access the medical box. In fact, a lot of the time that a child will see a health professional, they may in fact make a direct request to the Youth Justice Officer. So they don’t necessarily have to fill out the form.

Right?---The form is to enable them to have confidentiality. If they don’t want to say anything to the Youth Justice Officer, but frequently they will in fact say, “I’ve got a headache.” Or, “I’ve got a problem. Can you please take me to the clinic.”

Certainly. And is there any occasion when you are aware when the detainee will need to give the form to the Youth Justice Officer in order to get the appointment, or is that precisely what’s trying to be avoided?---Can you repeat that.

Sorry. In other to submit the form to the health centre, will there always be a mechanism to do that aside from giving it to a Youth Justice Officer?---Well, they should put it - - -

MS BROWNHILL: I object to the question, because the premise is that the form gets given to the Youth Justice Officer. The evidence is the form gets put in a medical box. So some confusion there.


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COMMISSIONER WHITE: Well, yes, thank you. Perhaps if you can just clarify that.

MR DIGHTON: I apologise.

Dr Connors - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I mean, you prefaced some questions ago if a young detainee cannot access the medical box and then you asked your question. So perhaps you should make sure that that’s understood by Dr Connors.

MR DIGHTON: Yes, thank you. The – let me shortcut it. Are aware of any practice where that form is given to a YJO officer to then hand to the health centre – a Youth Justice Officer?---Look, I’m not sure. But I suspect, occasionally, a young person may well do that.

Sure. Are you aware of how on the health staff collect the forms from the medical box?---They should be collecting it on a daily basis.

Thank you. And on the bottom of that form there is a box with the word Complaint written if it. What’s the purpose of that box?---Exactly what it says. We encourage patients to complain. As part of our health services we are always seeking – well, we try and seek feedback from patients in terms of how things are going, and often complaints that patients are making are, you know, often logistical complaints. “When is my outpatient appointment?” “I need to see the dentist, when is the dentist coming?” Etcetera. So they – they’re not major complaints. If they have major complaints often a young person may then do that through their lawyer, or they may complain directly to the health complaints commission.

Thank you. If we can turn, now, to attachment CC5.2. And this is the youth at risk procedure. And this is the current procedure that is in operation, in effect?---Yes.

And you detail in your statement that the – this procedure was extensively revised in 2016 and that the changes were brought about as a result of findings and recommendations from the Children’s Commissioner report; that’s right?---Yes.

And you also say that the reforms involved close consultation between senior staff in youth justice and mental and primary healthcare teams. What form of consultation did that take?---Multiple teleconferences and meetings, trying to make sure – again a lot of it is around – a lot of it is around the communication and making sure that the communication is flowing well, that everyone is clear about what their roles are, everyone is clear about what needs to be documented. I mean, one of the things that we needed to do, and continue to refine, is to make sure that we are meeting the regulations under the Youth Justice Act, that we are collecting the information that is specified, and that we – that all people who will be involved, both from a health perspective as well as a youth justice perspective are very familiar of what is required.


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And before we go to the detail of the document, a conceptual issue first: from the perspective of primary health, what is your understanding of what at-risk means for the child?---That the child is at risk of either harming themselves, or potentially harming others, because of distress.

And when will this procedure be triggered?---It is mostly triggered by a Youth Justice Officer where they have either observed a behaviour or the child has actually said to them that they are very distressed, that they are wanting to harm themselves. Occasionally, it’s triggered by a health member, but most commonly it’s a Youth Justice Officer.

And continuing down the page of the first page of that document, the second bullet point states the intent to minimise the numbers of detainees who reach the at-risk threshold. That – did your answer before describe the threshold? Is there anything you want to add about what that threshold is?---Sorry, which one are you referring to.

Under the second bullet point. It’s on the screen in front of you if that assists. Minimise the number of - - -?---Well, we don’t have it as a graph or a table.

Yes?---It is literally people’s perceptions. That, yes, this child is really behaving in a very dangerous manner and harming themselves, or attempting to harm themselves. This child is highly distressed and is harming other people who are trying to contain him. So it’s a consensus decision that this child is at risk. I mean, the Youth Justice Officers will, I would say, always try to have a threshold where the child has not perpetrated any harm to themselves or to others, and so they would call the youth at-risk before that occurred.

Right.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Is it your understanding that Youth Justice Officers have some training in understanding appropriately the signs. Not just by saying, “I’m going to hang myself”, for example. But there might be some - - -?---Sure. They have – they have had some training, and we’ve also provided some support from our child and adolescent mental health team to also help them understand, and to think about the behaviours that they can undertake to try to de-escalate situations. Often – you know, often these are occurring in circumstances a little bit like what the education panel was referring earlier where a youth might be asking for something and for various reasons it’s being refused and then they are starting to get very agitated and distressed, and that’s what they may start making comments that they are going to be harming themselves, so helping the Youth Justice Officers to understand and de-escalate that situation, so the child doesn’t feel they need to get to that point.

Thank you. And who carries out that training. Will that be your mental health people?---So our child and adolescent mental health people have provided some of that train, but youth justice delivers most of the training.


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I see. Alright.

MR DIGHTON: The third bullet point on that first page speaks to the timely assessment to minimise the time any youth is placed at-risk. The – and connected to that you have over the page the statutory requirement that to cancel an at-risk placement a recommendation must be made by a medical practitioner?---That’s correct.

That raises – sorry, I will start again. The reasoning and the purpose behind that, the policy and the regulation are obvious and sound, but does it raise practical or logistical concerns, given that statutory requirement that ensuring the youth doesn’t spend any more time than is strictly necessary at-risk?---So in terms of the amount of time a young person is being held at-risk, that’s not in regulations. That is something that obviously, between health and youth justice, is an approach that we agree on, that minimising the time that a young person is held at-risk is obviously the desired outcome. It creates significant additional work for youth justice to be able to keep a child safely in isolation at-risk, and it obviously creates additional work for health to be undertaking appropriate assessments and, for the young person, not being held at-risk is clearly the desired option. So we are – we all agree on that. In terms of the requirement which is in the regulations, for a medical practitioner to assess a child and determine that they are no longer at-risk, clearly that’s done, again, from a safety perspective, but it does create challenges. During the week our primary healthcare doctors attend the youth detention centre and see the young person and determine whether or not they need to continue to be held at risk. On the weekends we don’t have our primary healthcare doctors available, and so we are required to take the young person to ED to see the mental health registrar in either Alice Springs or Royal Darwin Hospital.

We might just step through that process because, without being at all critical, as these are obviously legitimate operational difficulties, but the most problematic time period would seem to be between 4.30 pm on Friday and 9 pm on Sunday, and there is some reference to that on page 6 of the policy documents underneath the title Weekends and Public Holidays. Thank you. The – in either case, the child, as you suggest before, must be taken to the emergency department on the Saturday or the Sunday; is that correct?---That’s correct.

And the – in order for the child to be transported it needs the – it will be a significant staffing and systems process, it would be taking them from their cell, putting them in an ambulance, taking them to the emergency department with a Youth Justice Officer attending, waiting for the psychiatric registrar, and then bringing them back. It’s fair to say that none of that may be conducive to stabilising or calming a stressed child in the circumstances?---No, not really. No, it certainly – I don’t think it is the best option for the young person. Frequently – not frequently – in terms of timing, in fact, Friday afternoon, a young person in court, and the judge expresses concern that they may in fact be at-risk and then they are required to be taken to ED as well before they even go to the youth detention centre. That’s often a challenging time, I think, for the young person.


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And is it the case that on the Saturday or the Sunday there will be either security requirements at the detention centre or simply a shortage of staff where it may not be possible to transport them to the emergency department. Or I can ask - - -?---That may have happened in the past, I can’t remember any circumstances of that happening in more recent times. But clearly that’s a challenge for youth justice, absolutely.

And the – the separation in time between the – say the child fails the – or doesn’t fail, but doesn’t come off risk on the Saturday, there is no alternative options to having someone attend to them until waiting for the emergency department visit on the Sunday?---We do have a primary healthcare nurse who is on call 24 hours, and they will physically attend, So if there is concern and for whatever reason they can’t transport the child to the ED, the primary healthcare nurse can certainly come in and do an assessment and then she will undertake a consultation. We have experienced primary care doctors, again on call 24 hours, taking calls from across remote communities at as well as youth detention, so she will consult with that doctor. They are not physically able to go, in fact frequently they’re interstate. They are a group of experienced doctors who may be living anywhere in Australia. So, again, between them they will make a decision in terms of what’s happening for that young person but, given that a medical practitioner has to physically assess them, according to the regulations, they will still at some point need to go to ED to confirm their ongoing or cancellation of their at-risk status.

And all other things being equal, which we know of course they are not, but it would be preferable to have the doctor go into the detention centre rather than the child go into the emergency department?---Absolutely.

And the reason that’s not done is funding issues or staff and resourcing?---Yes. It’s current staffing allocations. The registrars who are on call after hours and on the weekends are looking after the – the inpatient ward as well as seeing acute patients like this through an ED. So they are part of the community assessment team. And so for them to physically go out to the prison or to the youth detention centre is quite difficult.

The final page of that policy suggests it will be reviewed in two years. Is anyone else reviewing that aspect, that after hours aspect of the policy, to see if there are any alternatives or improvements in the interim?---Well, quite frankly, we review it after every case of a child being held at-risk. And we re-look at it, we re-have discussions with the staff. Recently we did have a situation where a young person being held at risk was actually already known to the mental health team, and so they agreed that they would do a video conference on the weekend to enable this child not to be brought out of the youth detention centre. Unfortunately, the videoconference didn’t actually work at their end, so it ended up being a teleconference and that actually ended up being quite satisfactory. Now, that was because they knew that particular individual patient and felt confident about making an assessment. Where they don’t know the individual patient, often you are looking at a lot of subtle, you know, behaviours. You are looking at facial movements, you are looking at eye contact,


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you’re looking at a range of different body language as well as the verbal language to try to make an assessment in terms of someone’s mental state, and the registrars feel uncomfortable that they may not be able to do that effectively by video conference or teleconference.

And it may be outside the scope of this policy, but for the period that the detainee is at risk, what are the other mental health services or supports or counselling that is provided to them or made available to them during that time?---So within the Don Dale Youth Detention Centre we now have a psychologist who is also able to provide counselling and support. Previously, we were using the Corrections psychologist as part of the at-risk assessment process, but their role is really more around working with groups of young people as opposed to individual counselling support. Alice Springs Youth Detention Centre has current funding for a part-time psychologist, and to date they have not been able to recruit that position.

Alright. Thank you. Commissioners, could I please tender Dr Connors’ statement?

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes, indeed. Am I right this thinking it’s 92? Exhibit 92 for Dr Connors’ statement. Thank you.

EXHIBIT #92 STATEMENT OF DR CONNORS

MR DIGHTON: I have no further questions. Thank you, Commissioners. And I don’t believe there are any parties for cross-examination.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: You have no documents to tender for Dr Connors?

MS BROWNHILL: No, Commissioner. The statement that she has tendered is our statement.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I realise that, but I was just checking. Nothing more.

MR DIGHTON: I apologise. Mr O’Connell has some questions.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Mr O’Connell.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR O’CONNELL [4.11 pm]

MR O’CONNELL: Yes, thank you, Commissioners.

Dr Connors, my name is O’Connell. I represent a few of the detainees or former detainees. In particular, with the questioning that I will asking you today, it’s in relation to my client who goes by the name pseudonym AN. I don’t expect you to

.ROYAL COMMISSION 16.3.17 P-1279 C.M. CONNORS XXN©Commonwealth of Australia MR O’CONNELL

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know who that is. Dr Connors, I know in your profession and position it is – things are always changing and it’s difficult to keep on top of things, but if I were to say that there are Australian consensus guidelines in relation to the diagnosis of FASD, would you say that were aware of that or not?---Yes. But I have also been advised by an expert in FASD that in fact the Australian consensus guidelines are still challenged by many people who consider themselves expert around the country. And so whilst they are there, and as I said the paediatricians certainly are familiar with some of the broad features and would consider that they can recognise and identify those broad features, it is considered a fairly highly specialised area.

So you accept that there are currently Australian guidelines for diagnosing FASD, but because an expert that you spoke to disagrees with those guidelines you don’t use them; is that right?

MS BROWNHILL: I object to that question.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. There’s no need to – that really was not a worthy question at all, Mr O’Connell.

MR O’CONNELL: Sorry, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: That is not in the slightest Dr Connors’ evidence.

MR O’CONNELL: Dr Connors, if there were a simple process for a general practitioner to screen, not diagnose but to screen, for the possibility of FASD, is that something that could or would be incorporated at the time a young person went into detention?---Yes. Certainly, if it was considered something that was relatively straightforward and simple then that would be something that we could look at as part of our day 5 process. So it would probably be more something for a medical practitioner rather than the nurse in the initial safety screening.

And you gave some evidence before as to your opinion as to the possible rates of FASD in the Northern Territory. The reality is, though – is that we just don’t know at the moment?---No. We don’t know. I mean, I think we do know that many of the young people going through youth detention have got significant – you know, post-traumatic stress disorder, cognitive disorders, and other behavioural disorders that may relate to early childhood trauma and other circumstances in their lives, but in terms of what the actual prevalence is, there has not been a population study to give us that information.

Are aware of the study that’s been done in the Banksia Hill Youth Detention Centre in Western Australia?---Yes. I saw that they’ve done one and I’m looking forward to seeing the results of that.

I understand that the – well, the bottom line is that they found 40 per cent of youth in that detention centre had a diagnosis of FASD?---And look, you know, that’s a very important finding. In terms of how applicable that is in the NT, well, as I said, we


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don’t know. We do have a very different demographic in terms of where Aboriginal people are living in the NT, as compared to WA, and that may influence the outcomes.

The bottom line, though, is that we need more research in the Northern Territory, in relation to that area?---Absolutely. Well, we need – we need some better mechanisms of how – as I said, I think focusing on trying to do these assessments in the detention centre – I think that’s not necessarily the best place to be undertaking it. For a start, kids obviously are under greater stress when they are in a detention centre. I think you would be better to look at a process where we could do that before they actually come into a detention centre and a child, particularly a child over 10 under the care of child protection, that may be an appropriate flag to undertake that type of assessment.

Certainly, though, not all children who come into detention come via being in care?---No, they don’t.

Doctor, my client, AN, was in and out of youth detention between 2011 and 2016, and during that time she has instructed that she suffered a vision impairment, in that she had trouble seeing the blackboard at the school. Is – now, I understand that things have changed in relation to hearing, but is – is part of the screening also a vision test?---I don’t think we are routinely doing a vision test for young people. Again, your client would have been able to use the medical request form to ask for a vision test, and we can do a basic vision test in the health centre, nut in terms of if she had visual impairment that she had trouble seeing a blackboard, then she would need an assessment by an optometrist, because it’s very likely she needs glasses.

But is it still the case now, that a young person in her situation would actually have to make a request to have a test done?---Yes. I’m pretty sure that we are not routinely doing visual assessments for children as part of our routine screening. Either in detention or in community.

Now, she also indicated that during her time in detention she suffered deafness in one ear. Now, I know things have changed as of last year – is that right – in relation to some hearing tests during the screening?---Recently.

Recently. And is that because of this Royal Commission?---Yes. So Damien Howard, who is someone I know well, I saw his evidence that he was giving and so that prompted me to ask were we actually undertaking any hearing screen, and of course we weren’t. As I said, we don’t actually undertake hearing screening as a routine in any of our population across the NT, and we basically focus on high risk, so we will look at children’s ears, we will look for holes in their eardrums which would indicate recurrent infection, and we will ask for any hearing problems that they think they might have. And, of course, in a community setting parents or carers or teachers will often be flagging that they think a child might have problems with their hearing and can we organise a hearing test.


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And if a child is found to be suffering from a hearing – some hearing loss, would the department provide hearing aids?---Yes, absolutely.

Now - - -?---Well, actually I should qualify. Those sorts of prosthetics are actually provided by the youth justice system. We would identify the problem and then we would notify the youth justice system.

Is there – now, I thank you, you’ve provided an abundance of material attached to your statement, but one thing that came up in particular in relation to my client was her being given, on one occasion, the morning after pill. Is that something for which there is a policy around, as to when and how that should be done, if at all?---So we – in the youth detention centre, we use a series of clinical guidelines called the Remote Primary Health Care Manuals. These have been developed by a group of experts across both the NT and Australia, and specifically are aimed at delivering primary healthcare for Aboriginal people in rural and re remote areas. And I would suspect a procedure around the morning after pill is in what we call the women’s business manual. I would need to actually check it, but I would be fairly confident there would be something in that.

Okay. But nothing specific as far as you know in relation to youth in detention?

MS BROWNHILL: I object to that. The answer has been given.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Upheld.

MR O’CONNELL: Do you know what that particular policy says in the manual that you - - -

MS BROWNHILL: .....

COMMISSIONER WHITE: The answer has been given, Mr O’Connell. I think it is getting late in the day again, perhaps not focusing so well.

MR O’CONNELL: Yes.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: But Dr Connors did answer that.

MR O’CONNELL: You mentioned in your materials, Dr Connors, that when a detainee is on medication, and the nurse goes home for the day, that the nurse then passes that medication on to the Youth Justice Officer?---So at Don Dale after we moved to the Holtze adult prison that was the process for minor medications. Panadol, for example. However, we’ve had additional resourcing and it has enabled us to both have extended hours, but also for the – if we require to give medication in the evening for a young person then one of our nurses will come across on their way home from the Holtz prison after medication rounds there. In Alice Springs it has always been much easier, logistically, because they can simply go straight across to the youth detention centre.


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And when was that change made?---About September last year.

So my client has indicated that on a number of occasions in the afternoons, when she would go to get her medication the nurse had gone home, and it wasn’t available to her, and she wasn’t aware as to where to get it from anywhere else?---So without having the specific medical record of your client, I really can’t comment on her situation, but we had a very clear procedure with the Youth Justice Officers where we had a list of patients who were on medication. They would check off that they were providing the medication and we would give them the medication when the nurse was leaving for the day.

Now, the most significant issue in relation to my client is the issue of at-risk. During the time that she was in detention she was placed at risk on at least 20 occasions, and she has a few concerns that she would like raised. The first, which you’ve touched on to some extent, is the fact that it’s the Youth Justice Officer who makes the decision to first place the person on risk. And you gave some evidence in relation to training. Have you ever, yourself, taken part in that training, or been present during that training?---No.

And do you know who provides that training?---No.

And you said that there was some support given from the mental health team. Is that in it a formal training package or is that just as needed?---There has been some sessions, and we haven’t actually talked about a formal training package, but something like that is actually a good suggestion.

You would accept it’s a fairly significant decision to lock a young person up?---Absolutely.

And so there should be some – not only training, but some guidelines about how that decision is made?

MS BROWNHILL: I object to the question. The witness has given evidence about what the guidelines are.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Do you accept that, Mr O’Connell.

MR O’CONNELL: Well, no. I don’t, your Honour.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Alright. Well, explore it a little further. I think there can be some capacity for asking Dr Connors a little more about this.


Dr Connors, there aren’t any present guidelines, are there, in relation to making the decision to put a young person at risk?---So the youth justice have – they have quite detailed guidelines for their own officers. In terms of – in terms of health staff, I


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mean, basically, we – we orientate and train our health staff that if someone is threatening suicide, if someone is threatening self-harm, if someone is physically holding something, which happens on occasion, and is literally attempting to harm themselves with whatever that implement might be, or if they are being very distressed and harming – causing harm to others, then it’s quite obvious for the health professional that they need to call the child at risk and to get further assessments. The purpose of calling someone at-risk, really, certainly from the health professional side, is to enable those assessments to occur and, I mean, from the youth justice side they need to hold the child in isolation to enable them to have the assessments and to try to calm the behaviour. But there is a recognition, I think from everyone, that often – you know, you’ve got to try and find that fine balance, because holding a child in isolation can then also exaggerate the behaviours, and so it’s very difficult. Most of the time when we’ve done the assessments it’s actually unusual for a child to have a definite mental illness. Most of the time it is behavioural issues, and that creates some real challenges in terms of how do you help that child to calm down? Youth justice has a process around their behavioural management plans. From a health perspective we will be having consultations with our paediatricians who sometimes will know these children and will have done an assessment prior, which is always very helpful, and we will be having discussions with our mental health team in terms of is there any evidence that the child would benefit from any medication that might assist their behaviour, that might assist with agitation, that might assist with sleeplessness, for example. Most of the time these children are actually not on medication. Sometimes they do require significant medication.

Dr Connors, am I to understand the evidence that you just gave that when a health professional, in a different context to detention, makes a determination that a young person is at-risk, it’s not the next necessary step to then detain that person; is that correct?---No. I was referring to what we do for a child who is in detention. I mean, if a – if you have a child or a young person in the community who is doing a similar thing, again it would depend on the severity of that behaviour and how serious people thought that behaviour was, and you would then be – you know, doing a similar thing in terms of seeking advice and consulting with relevant people with expertise, and obviously bringing in family and other supports around that young person.

Do you think that’s something that should happen in the detention context, that immediately – well, are there things that you think a Youth Justice Officer could do, when deciding a young person is at-risk, that are less than locking them up?---As I said, one of the reasons that they call a child at-risk is because they are concerned by quite significant behaviour. They are not calling it for fairly mild behaviours or simply refusal to you know, follow a direction. So I think they are probably already attempting to do that de-escalation. And, look, I have forgotten the point of your question, sorry.


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Well, you have essentially answered it in the sense that would you agree that the best practice is to utilise de-escalation first and locking the child up is a measure of last resort?---Of course.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I think that was answered a little earlier, Mr O’Connell.

MR O’CONNELL: Yes. Thank you, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: In that way. How you are going with your questions?

MR O’CONNELL: I – probably another 10 minutes.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Are you sure?

MR O’CONNELL: Yes. I will try and keep it to that, yes.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I think I have to say you will keep it to that.

MR O’CONNELL: Thank you, Commissioner.

The other thing you just raised, Dr Connors, was the involvement of family. Would that be something important in the detention context that, when a child is marked at-risk that there should be, as soon as possible, contact made to the family?---In the – in the protocol, as part of developing the individual management plan, we have included – and this was, you know, after discussions with youth justice, that that may frequently need to involve family. And that in fact we – from a health perspective we felt that having family engagement, whether that’s through a phone call or whether that’s through a physical visit, was probably an important aspect of helping that child’s behaviour. Again, we have to operate within the constraints of a detention centre and youth justice is responsible for the safety and security. But we, from a health perspective, certainly advise that we think that’s a useful approach in terms of assisting that child to calm down and their behaviour to improve. And we frequently will be consulting with family and advising family about the treatment that we are providing.

And so when did you give that advice to - - -?---When did we - - -

I’m sorry, you just said that you advised that having family involvement was a good idea?---So when we revised the procedure following the Children’s Commissioner investigation last year - - -

Yes?--- - - - and we were looking at the regulations and looking at the meaning of the individual management plan, that’s when we were quite explicit with youth justice to say that we really felt that early involvement of family was actually an important component of an individual management plan.


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And what about if the child marked at-risk does in fact hurt themselves? Do you think there is even more of a need at that point to contact family?---It depends on what has occurred, basically. I mean, how seriously they have hurt themselves. Obviously, if it’s a significant injury they will be taken to the ED, and I’m not sure about what youth justice does in that process in terms of notifying family, but I would assume that they do.

Now, Counsel Assisting asked you a number of questions about the timing that the young person would have to remain once the decision is made to lock them up. Is there any consideration – there is a process that you’ve outlined that involves a number of things to happen, including the meeting of what’s called the ARAT?---Yes. The At-Risk Assessment Team.

And they meet at 3 o’clock in the afternoon; is that right?---Yes.

So is it fair to say that, if a young person is marked at risk at 9 o’clock in the morning, there’s no opportunity at all to get out until 3 o’clock when that meeting occurs?---They will be assessed soon after they have been – they have been placed on an at-risk status. So the 3 o’clock meeting is more the routine meetings that – once someone has been placed at risk, but when a child is first placed at risk then they are assessed as soon as possible by all the relevant people.

And is there any consideration being given to Youth Justice Officers being trained to be able to make that assessment, to say that, well, we don’t think – if they are entrusted at the moment to make the decision to lock the young child or the young person up, can’t they be entrusted then to, with the proper training. to make the decision to let the young person out?---So the current regulations state that a medical practitioner needs to decide that the child is no longer at risk. Again, it’s a safety issue. It’s around saying that we’re confident this child does not have a significant mental illness that’s impairing their decision making and that if they are taken off at-risk that they will still be safe. I don’t think Youth Justice Officers would consider that they have sufficient skills and training to do that.

See, one of the – I will just give you a brief example, incident involving my client is she was spoken to for talking to another detainee when she wasn’t supposed to be, and she was placed in her room as punishment and an hour later, with no issues in the intervening time, she was told that because she had damaged some property when she was placed in there that she would have to stay the whole night in her cell as punishment. And the superintendent then told the Youth Justice Officers to put her at risk due to previous incidents. So there had been no actual behaviour on her part, at that particular time, that you would normally associate with a person being put at risk. Do you think that - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Well, you’re asking Dr Connors to assume a set of facts.



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COMMISSIONER WHITE: You can just – you are being asked to assume these are the facts, whether they are the case or not?---What I can tell you is that I’ve participated in case conferences for a number of children who are being held at-risk, mostly to support my primary healthcare staff in their decision making and help them access the relevant expertise that they need from other people. I have not come across a situation where that type of situation has occurred, so I can’t really comment on that one.

MR O’CONNELL: So if I were to say to you that my client says that she was placed at-risk on numerous occasions for minor infractions that would not meet the normal definition of at-risk that you gave in your evidence, you would say that’s something that you haven’t heard?---That’s not the common experience and, again, my staff frequently debrief with me in terms of the incidents that occur when children are held at-risk – as in each of the cases because we – as I said, we are frequently are re-looking at our procedures, we are re-looking at the best mechanisms, again, to minimise the time and make sure the process is functioning as well as it needs to. I’ve – I think if – again the ARAT team, when they meet on a daily basis, is the youth of Youth Justice Officer, the psychologist, the nurse, the forensic mental health nurse, the primary healthcare doctor. I don’t – I can’t imagine a circumstance where a Youth Justice Officer is able to justify – because the reasons why the child is being held at-risk and the behaviour they are displaying is discussed in great detail. A minor infraction, and a child who is behaving perfectly normally, they would not be able to justify holding that child at-risk, and the primary healthcare doctor’s assessment would be immediately taking them off the at-risk status.

Would it be a reasonable practice for a Youth Justice Officer to make a determination based on the fact the young person had been marked at-risk a number of times before, in your opinion?---Again, in case discussions I’ve been involved with, there are a small number of young people who are at-risk on multiple occasions, and again they – those situations actually involve even larger groups, because we are really trying to reduce that type of occurrence. You know, you know that there’s clearly some significant issues going on and it’s often very difficult to try to reduce the behaviours that the young person is displaying. If she is being placed at-risk multiple times then I suspect that she was displaying quite significant distress, and quite significant behavioural issues, that was causing people to be concerned and to place her at risk.

Would you say, though, that as the number of incidents of being marked at-risk increases so does – hopefully, at these meetings – the intensity of the plan to avoid it happening in the future?---Absolutely. Yes, very. I mean, we would be getting in the forensic psychiatrist, we would be – we’ve had the paediatrician doing visits out to the youth detention centre. People are very concerned to minimise, and really looking at all possible treatment plans and treatment options. Youth justice will have implemented a behavioural management plan, which again is reviewed on a daily basis. From a health perspective, we will be, again, re-reviewing and looking at what are our treatment options and what can be offered that would actually reduce the


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behaviour that’s causing the at-risk status. So it becomes very intense and, as I’ve said, there is a small number of young people where we have had this situation.

And in the recent draft guidelines there is mention in relation to regular counselling, but there is also a note that it’s still being figured out?---So in the Don Dale Youth Detention Centre we have recruited a – recruited a psychologist so she’s now participating both in those daily at risk meetings, but also providing individual counselling to those young people. In Central Australia they have not currently been able to recruit that position.

Sorry, when was she employed, the psychologist?---Amelia was employed a few months ago.

And was that again in response to the Royal Commission?---Again, it was around our at-risk procedures and in discussions about what was the gaps in services and what was the concerns that we had. In – at least in Darwin, we do – I know it’s in both youth detention centres – there are psychologists employed through youth justice, and they can undertake assessments, but their role is not around individual counselling, it’s more around working with groups of young people around their offending heir behaviour.

So earlier than a few months ago, and going back several years, there was no regular counselling available?---No.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Mr O’Connell.

MR O’CONNELL: Can I just ask one last question, Commissioner.

My final question is: has any – has the Health Department looked deeply into whether locking up children who are at-risk is in any way beneficial at all, and – or whether it is more likely to be detrimental?---I’m not sure what you mean by has the Health Department looked deeply.

Well - - -?---I think the evidence is pretty clear that isolation is not a good scenario for any individual, much less a young person, and so we’ve certainly looked very deeply at how we collaborate with Youth Justice to try and minimise that, whilst at the same time keeping that young person safe.


MR O’CONNELL: Yes. Thank you.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Mr O’Connell. Mr Dighton?

MR DIGHTON: Commissioners.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Are we going to allow Dr Connors to be released now?


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MR DIGHTON: Yes, thank you.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you so much for your assistance to us this afternoon. It has been very important and useful evidence?---Thank you.



MR DIGHTON: Commissioners, I’m in your hands. We have one more witness who will be a reasonably short witness.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Promises, promises, Mr Dighton. I have to say that most barristers speak with a forked tongue. What we will do is take a five minute break.

MR DIGHTON: Certainly.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: The transcriber needs to have a little finger rest, and so does Commissioner Gooda, and so do I. So we will take a five minute break and we will come back – we will come back then.

MR DIGHTON: Thank you, Commissioners.


ADJOURNED [4.42 pm]

RESUMED [4.51 pm]

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Mr Dighton.

MR DIGHTON: Thank you, Commissioners. I call Mr Chris Castle.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes, thank you.

MS PARSONS: I appear on behalf of Mr Castle; my name is Ms Parsons.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you, Ms Parsons.

<CHRISTOPHER MICHAEL CASTLE, SWORN [4.52 pm]

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COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Mr Castle. Thank you. Please sit down. Thank you, Mr Dighton.

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DIGHTON [4.52 pm]

MR DIGHTON: Could you please tell the Commission and board of inquiry your full name and occupation?---Yes, Christopher Michael Castle, I’m a social worker. I presently work as a mental health worker at the Child and Youth Mental Health Service in Alice Springs.

And you provided a statement to this Commission signed 8 February 2017?---Yes.

I tender that statement, Commissioners.


EXHIBIT #93 STATEMENT OF MR CASTLE DATED 8/2/2017

MR DIGHTON: And you commenced your course work as a case worker in the Alice Springs Youth Detention Centre in around November 2012?---Yes.

And you describe your role as a case worker at paragraph 14 of your statement. Could you just describe what tasks took up most of your time in that role?---The tasks- it was a busy job involving, as a welfare position, organising visits of family to detainees, organising phone numbers. There’s – a fair bit of important work to the detainee is very – sort of administrative work, organising visits of family, liaising with welfare agencies in – within the surrounds. And there was the task of conducting a number of questionnaires that you were required to give to detainees who were sentenced. Let’s have a look. There was the weekly or near weekly classification meetings, and you were part of that panel.

Thank you. And part of the role was the provision of counselling to detainees. Were there limitations on the access that you had to them or whether you had sufficient time to do it?---I don’t think there was set limitations, and every day I guess I worked to after hours. I think I wouldn’t say there were limitations to the counselling that you could do, just that there were about 16 detainees and to get through – you know, to do that once a week was perhaps all you could do.

Yes. Thank you. At paragraph 28 and following of your statement you describe or speak of the behaviour management – behavioural management unit in Alice Springs. Firstly, can I ask you what worlds you would use to describe the physical environment and atmosphere in the BMU at that time?---Sorry, counsel, can you give me that paragraph again.

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My apologies. 28 and following?---Alright.

And my question was what words would you describe – would you use to describe the physical environment and atmosphere of the BMU at the time?---I think all staff and detainees were subject to a dungeon-like physical environment. It was an old building, there were thick brick walls and bars and gates. It was crowded – overcrowded. It was draconian.

And what reactions did you observe from children when they were placed in a BMU cell?---The initial reaction that often occurred was a fair bit of swearing and calling out. You could get a young person who would get in there and settle, but usually I think their behaviour escalated for a period of time just upon being locked in there, and then they needed to succumb, I think you could say, to their distress.

Yes. You were the only on-site case worker at the centre?---Yes.

And it was often the case that when children were placed in the BMU you wouldn’t be consulted or informed?---Yes, that’s right.

And was it ever the case that you were discouraged from speaking with children in the BMU?---Initially, I was discouraged. It wasn’t deemed really necessary to provide sort of counselling. It – I mean, part of the thinking, I think, was that you could exacerbate the distress by going in perhaps prematurely, but initially I wasn’t encouraged. And then – I mean, counsel, I was only there for six months, but as time passed I had more access to detainees and occasionally was invited in to talk one-on-one with them.

And, in your view, and from a perspective of best practice, is it a critical time for a child to be at least offered that sort of support when they are perhaps heightened and locked in an isolation cell?---That was my feeling; it’s still my feeling. I think if someone is in distress then you attend to them in a kind and caring way, and there’s a physical proximity of – that has a nurturing bearing. And, of course, you wouldn’t necessarily do that if someone was striking out.

If I can turn to the significance of culture of a detention centre and the staff within it, and it’s something that you touch on at paragraph 41 of your statement. The – and you use the words “imperatives” in that paragraph. Is it fair to say that there are at times, in a detention setting, competing imperatives such as security as against the therapeutic approach?---Yes. I think, through a number of reasons, the environment out there was, in the period that I was there – was one of containment and the imperative was security.

The – what premium then was placed either by the systems or the culture of the centre on the therapeutic or relational skills of staff rather than their security skills?---I think it’s ludicrous to say that it could be therapeutic, because the nature of the physical environment – it was a given that people didn’t perhaps design it themselves who were working there but the nature of that physical environment


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probably triggered young people who had a background where they had experienced trauma. So even the authority – the – the status of being an offender, the locked – experience of having your movements monitored, and locked – and you’re locked into secure areas, I think for many that triggers – it triggers a response. So it’s a detrimental response, I think. So I don’t think, in any way, there – it could be considered therapy. And I also think, in that case, you could have a therapeutic encounter with people over time, and that could certainly ameliorate the conditions that you’re in, but overall I don’t think you could possibly consider it a therapeutic environment.

Would you ever see prison officers from the adult prison working at the centre with children?---Yes – yes.

And in terms of atmosphere – and I think you’ve touched on this before – but was it the atmosphere itself that was inconsistent with any attempt to encourage rehabilitation or therapeutic responses, so that it was impossible or so that it could only be done in a very limited way?---There were many moments of kindness that were offered to young people from Youth Justice Officers and other staff. Many moments where people are therapeutised in a sense. But the system was antithetical to therapeutic outcomes, as far as I could see.

Thank you. If I could turn to the concept of cultural competence, which is – commences at paragraph 52 of your statement and you cite there your concern about the lack of cultural competence in the design and operation of the centre. It was the case in the period you were there that the great majority of detainees were Aboriginal, but there was only one Aboriginal Youth Justice Officer?---To my knowledge, I have to say, because I guess there would be people there who perhaps didn’t identify as Aboriginal or I didn’t recognise as Aboriginal who were Youth Justice Officers. There was one particular Youth Justice Officer that was Aboriginal, and he was very good.

And when that Aboriginal Youth Justice Officer left, was he replaced, or was there any other person who joined who was Aboriginal?---No – no. Not to my knowledge.

And generally speaking, only from your direct observations or knowledge, was there a difference in reactions or the behaviour of the Aboriginal children when they were engaged in a culturally appropriate way? Engaged with in a culturally appropriate way

MS BROWNHILL: Can I ask my friend to indicate what he means by “engaged with in a culturally appropriate way”?

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. I think you - - -

MR DIGHTON: I will break that down. Thank you, Commissioners.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. Perhaps a bit more concrete.


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MR DIGHTON: Yes, thank you. Was there, to your knowledge, training at the time for Youth Justice Officers to engage with children in culturally sensitive ways?---No.

The – in the time that you were at the detention centre, were there visits by Aboriginal elders or people from the detainees communities?---I – I recall it – only a few. Perhaps a handful in the six months that I was there.

And how were those visits received?

MS BROWNHILL: By whom?---I would have to say that it was – they were received generally well. It was a positive experience for the detainees. I don’t think it was significant.

MR DIGHTON: Sorry, could you just elaborate on what was significant?---Well it was, in a sense, more like – perhaps you could say entertainment. It was something that may have conduced resentment, and the reason is, I think, because it was just so simply tokenistic. You know, family visits, of course, are deeply meaningful, so that was real. At that time in the period that I was there.

And, finally, can I talk about the assistance that was provided to detainees upon their release, which is covered at paragraph 56 of your statement, and that part of your role was assisting them upon their transition into the wider community. The – aside from what you go on to discuss in paragraphs 57 and 8, what other measures or services were – exist, or did exist and were beneficial in assisting detainees with that transition?---Could you please repeat that question.

Sure. Aside from what you specifically mention at paragraphs 57 and 58, what was beneficial, in your experience, in assisting detainees with that transition back into the community?---There was visits from Centrelink, of course there were family visits, so there were agencies that – for instance, DCF that wanted to set up post release programs, but I don’t recall an overall program. I mean, my issue was that in a sense I was limited in my capacity to connect to the CAALAS operator who liaised with a whole range of services and really supported post-release plans.

Thank you. And, finally, you mention a number of recommendations at the end of your statement. Is there anything further that you would add to that in terms of what more could be done?---Counsel, thank you. I mean, I would like to say that those young people who have done well since they have left have done well because they had people who believed in them. What needs to happen is that there needs to be a dedicated mental health unit that’s sort of dedicated and on-site. There needs to be psychiatric assessments that occur perhaps on-site, or that are readily available within the site, and that the follow-up treatment for young people occurs on-site with staff that are on site. It radically and meaningfully must change in the degree that Aboriginal community has input into that place. They – the Aboriginal organisations and people – I keep ..... but they need to be able to have a say in the management of the place. It can’t be tokenistic. I would make the – I mean, everyone is labouring


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under a – under duress in the Owen Springs site because of the actual building that they are all having to live and work in, so – but, you know, ideally it would be a much softer environment and frankly I would get rid of the uniforms and I would get rid of the classifications.

Thank you. No further questions. Thank you, Commissioners.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Right. Thanks, Mr Dighton. Could I inform those who have got questions to ask that Commissioner Gooda and I have to rise at 5.15. We are conducting a roundtable at 5.30 with a number of other people, so it is not possible for us to allow you to ask more than very sharply focused questions. Thank you. Thanks Ms Graham.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS GRAHAM [5.08 pm]

MS GRAHAM: Mr Castle I appear for the Central Australian Aboriginal Legal Aid Service. Could we have the last frame of exhibit 82 up on the screen, please. Do you recognise that as being the outdoor area at the Alice Springs Youth Detention Centre?---Yes, I do.

And the shipping container that’s in the middle of the screen and to the back towards the fence, was that the case worker office when you were working at the centre?---Yes, I believe so. It looks smaller than I thought it was.

If you - - -

COMMISSIONER WHITE: The Commissioners have actually visited there and seen it. So we have got some sense of scale, Mr Castle.

MS GRAHAM: If you were to have some input into the design of a purpose-built facility for the detention of children, would it be important for the location of a case worker office in the centre to allow for ready access by the children in that centre to the office?---Yes.

And to allow for privacy during meetings with the children?---Yes. Well, that – that can afford privacy, I can tell you, when you look at it like that.

And is it also important for the place to be somewhere where it’s quiet so you can have those more meaningful exchanges with children?---Yes.

And is it also important, in your view, for the location of the case worker office to be somewhere that allows the case worker to engage in some informal monitoring of the goings on of the centre?---Yes.

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And the location of the case worker office in the Alice Springs Youth Detention Centre, being outside and at the back of the facility, is it the case that that didn’t allow so much for that informal monitoring of what was going on in the facility in terms of relations between Youth Justice Officers and children, for example?---No, it didn’t.

You’ve talked about the culture and practice of the Alice Springs Youth Detention Centre being at odds with a therapeutic approach, and I think one of the examples that you give in your statement is your efforts to have collaboration with the Central Australian Aboriginal Legal Aid Service in terms of pre-release planning being prohibited, effectively; is that right?---Yes.

Are you familiar with – I withdraw that. Are you aware of a through-care program that exists up in the Top End, a service provided by NAAJA?---Yes.

And when I say through-care, do you understand that to mean a coordinated provision of support and services that follows a child from when they first enter detention all the way out into the community, when they are then in a safe and trouble-free life back in the community. You understand that’s - - -?---Yes.

- - - what the through-care principle means?---Yes.

That kind of intensive case management and follow-through for a child didn’t exist in Central Australia at the time that you were working as a case worker in Alice Springs; that’s right, isn’t it?---That’s right.

And are you aware that, through your work as a mental health worker, that it’s still the case that that kind of program does not exist in Central Australia for children in detention in Alice Springs?---I’m not sure, counsellor, I’m not sure.

Do you agree that from your experience working with the staff at CAALAS, and particularly you might have in mind Ms Antoinette Carroll, that CAALAS would be an ideal organisation to be funded to provide a through-care service for children?

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Well, is this an advertisement boost, Ms Graham, or an application?

You had a good experience with Ms Carroll, did you not?---I had a good experience, Commissioner, because she was connected to all the youth network. I had worked with her for more than two years previously, and I knew the connections that she had.

Yes. Thank you.

MS GRAHAM: And it’s not just particularly about Ms Carroll because CAALAS is the type of organisation that has a really close link with the children that go into

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detention and their communities; that’s right, isn’t it?---That was my experience. Yes.

Apart from the necessary change in philosophy to a more therapeutic or trauma-informed approach, are there any other measures that you consider need to be put in place to ensure that a case worker has that ability to perform that welfare role?---I don’t think the best case worker in the world could really bring about significant change with the kids in there. I think that the system has to change quite dramatically before that can occur.

I will leave it there, Commissioners.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Ms Graham.

MR O’CONNELL: Two very focused questions, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I think we have got our eyes on you, all four of them, Mr O’Connell.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR O’CONNELL [5.14 pm]

MR O’CONNELL: Mr Castle, paragraph 37 of your statement. It’s on the screen?---Got it. Yes.

Could you please explain why you consider it completely inappropriate to lock up a detainee who was deemed at-risk?---As the doctor said before, isolation seems antithetical to ameliorating the suffering of a distressed child.

And my second to last question is do you make any suggestions as to alternative practices that could be used?---There – what happened of occasion was a specialling, or just the one-on-one contact and staying with that young person to help them de-escalate, just remain with them. This is in practice now, I think, it was in practice then, and negotiating their safety with them. “If you’ve got a choice of room, what room would be like to be in?” You know, if they are going to harm someone then they need to be restrained, I guess, or contained. But if they are acutely distressed as – and likely to harm themselves, then we de-escalate in soft ways. And, I mean, that brings up too just a very good assessment of where they are at with, perhaps, a child psychiatrist on site.

Sorry, who would do this – you called it “specialling”?---Specialling, it might be a nursing term, really, but I’m thinking of Youth Justice Officers who had rapport who just stayed with that young person. This – I witnessed this and it worked.

Yes. Thank you, Commissioners.

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COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Mr O’Connell.

MS PARSONS: No re-examination.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thanks, Ms Parsons.

MR DIGHTON: Thank you, Commissioners. I think Mr Castle can be discharged.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: We’re done? Thank you so much for your assistance to the Commission, Mr Castle. We will take into account what you’ve got in your statement, that will be helpful for us, and what you have been able to say this afternoon?---Thank you.

Thank you.


MR DIGHTON: Commissioners, very briefly in terms of times for tomorrow, the fixed time for Mr McCarthy is 10 am. There is one other witness on the schedule.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes, Professor Rynne has been waiting here for quite some time. I hope he has found it of interest, because I know he has been waiting to get on with quite a long time. We could start at 9 tomorrow. Can you manage that, or one of your counsel, for Professor Rynne? That’s an uncontroversial witness.

MS BROWNHILL: Commissioner, we would be content – the Minister is now in town, so we would be content for him to come in at 11 or something if that would be convenient.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: I think we will – how long do we think Professor Rynne will be?

MR DIGHTON: 45 minutes to 50 minutes.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Alright. We will stick to the 10 o’clock time for the minister.

MS BROWNHILL: Okay.

COMMISSIONER WHITE: So if we can commence at 9 o’clock tomorrow. And I don’t expect a full complement, by any means, so you can just have Mr O’Mahoney or anybody can come. You don’t need to be here then, I am sure you have got other things to do.

MS BROWNHILL: Understand. Thank you.


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COMMISSIONER WHITE: Thank you. Alright. Thank you. We will adjourn until 9 tomorrow.

MR DIGHTON: Thank you.

MATTER ADJOURNED at 5.18 pm UNTIL FRIDAY, 17 MARCH 2017


5

Index of Witness Events

BY, AFFIRMED P-1191EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR McAVOY P-1191CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TIERNEY P-1208RE-EXAMINATION BY MR McAVOY P-1210

THE WITNESS WITHDREW P-1211

CA, AFFIRMED P-1212EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR McAVOY P-1212


MARION ISOBEL GUPPY, AFFIRMED P-1218BRETT McNAIR, AFFIRMED P-1218DAVID GLYDE, AFFIRMED P-1218THE WITNESSES WITHDREW P-1266

CHRISTINE MARIE CONNORS, AFFIRMED P-1267EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DIGHTON P-1267CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR O’CONNELL P-1279


CHRISTOPHER MICHAEL CASTLE, SWORN P-1289EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DIGHTON P-1290CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS GRAHAM P-1294CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR O’CONNELL P-1296


Index of Exhibits and MFIs

EXHIBIT #64.83 TENDER BUNDLE TABS 83, 92, 93, 94, 97, 98, 341, 342, 343, AND 344

P-1188

EXHIBIT #83 DOCUMENTS FROM NORTHERN TERRITORY RESPONSIVE TENDER BUNDLE

P-1189

EXHIBIT #84 STATEMENT OF THE WITNESS KNOWN AS BY DATED 21/2/2017

P-1192

EXHIBIT #85 STATEMENT OF CA P-1213

EXHIBIT #86 RESPONSIVE TENDER BUNDLE TO CA FROM NORTHERN TERRITORY EXCLUDING TAB 11

P-1213


P-1219


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P-1219


P-1220


P-1220

EXHIBIT #91 STATEMENT OF DAVID GLYDE DATED 24/2/2017

P-1220

EXHIBIT #92 STATEMENT OF DR CHRISTINE MARIE CONNORS

P-1279

EXHIBIT #93 STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER MICHAEL CASTLE DATED 8/2/2017

P-1290


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