TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS · 22/04/2020 · TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS O/N H-1188257 MR B. WALKER SC, Commissioner IN THE MATTER OF A SPECIAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO THE RUBY PRINCESS

.RUBY PRINCESS INQUIRY 22.4.20R1 P-1

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

O/N H-1188257

MR B. WALKER SC, Commissioner

IN THE MATTER OF A SPECIAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY

INTO THE RUBY PRINCESS

SYDNEY

9.31 AM, WEDNESDAY, 22 APRIL 2020

MR R. BEASLEY SC appears with MR N. KIRBY as counsel assisting the

Commission

MR D. McLURE SC appears with MR G. O’MAHONEY for Princess Cruise Lines

Ltd, Carnival PLC and Dr Von Watzdorf

MS G. FURNESS SC appears with MS K. LINDEMAN for New South Wales Health


COMMISSIONER: Good morning. My name is Bret Walker. This is the Special

Commission of Inquiry into the Ruby Princess. I am sitting in Prince Albert Road,

Sydney, and we are connected to the Ruby Princess. At the outset, I think it’s Dr

Von Watzdorf who is on board the ship and on the screen at the moment. Is that

correct? 5

DR VON WATZDORF: That is correct.

COMMISSIONER: Good morning, Doctor. There are some formalities we need to

go through - - - 10

DR VON WATZDORF: Good morning, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: - - - first before any questioning may commence, so if you will

bear with us please. Could I have, Mr Beasley, the appearances please. 15

MR R. BEASLEY SC: If it please the Commission, I appear with MR KIRBY as

counsel assisting the Commission. There are also some legal practitioners here who

wish to seek leave to appear for, one for the doctor, the witness, and also for New

South Wales Health, so I’ll let them announce their appearance and seek leave from 20

you.

MR D. McLURE SC: Commissioner, my name is McLure. I seek leave to appear

for Princess Cruise Lines Limited, Carnival PLC and the witness, Dr Von Watzdorf.

There will be some other witnesses I would also seek leave to appear for in due 25

course.

COMMISSIONER: I grant leave to appear to each of the persons, corporate and

natural, Mr McLure, that you’ve just named. You may safely anticipate, though I

would like it put it on the record as it occurs, that the same leave will be granted for 30

the other natural persons for whom you wish to appear, and obviously you are also

entitled to appear as counsel. You are instructed.

MR McLURE: Yes. I will be appearing with MR O’MAHONEY, my junior, and

I’m instructed by Clyde & Co, Commissioner. 35

COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. You have an application - - -

MR McLURE: Yes.

40

COMMISSIONER: - - - which you’ve been good enough to foreshadow in writing.

I thank you for the courtesy and its clarity. We will deal with that almost

immediately after a couple of other formalities. Thank you.

MS G. FURNESS SC: Commissioner - - - 45


COMMISSIONER: I’m sorry, Ms Furness, I can hardly see you there.

MS FURNESS: No, I’m appearing too, Commissioner. My name is Furness. I

seek leave to appear on behalf of New South Wales Health which includes New

South Wales Ambulance, with my junior, MS LINDEMAN. 5

COMMISSIONER: I don’t want to embarrass you but are they legal entities?

MS FURNESS: New South Wales Health is in the sense that it’s a department of

the government. The Ministry - - - 10

COMMISSIONER: Which sort of means it’s not an entity but in any event I’ll give

you leave under those names. If in due course somebody can just ensure that you are

appearing for a legal entity rather than a group of people employed in the public

service, that would be useful to me. 15

MS FURNESS: Certainly.

COMMISSIONER: Leave is granted for each of those entities or non-entities, as the

case may be – those groups. And of course for you and your learned junior as 20

counsel. Thank you.

MS FURNESS: Thank you, Commissioner.

MR BEASLEY: My junior is whispering to me, your Honour, as to whether – and 25

someone can tell us whether – what is being said by - - -

COMMISSIONER: Please don’t call me your Honour.

MR BEASLEY: No, I won’t. I won’t make that mistake again. 30

COMMISSIONER: No. By the way, I should have said this. You will have

noticed that there were no formalities such as standing for me as I come in and out. I

don’t wish any such formalities. There will be no bowing. And although in the - - -

35

MR BEASLEY: I think that’s up to counsel, your Honour.

COMMISSIONER: - - - row of counsel you may want to stand up from time to time

or I may slide sideways so I can see you. We’ll adopt, if you don’t mind, arbitral

practice. Unless you want to, in which case you’re welcome to do so, you may 40

remain seated to address me. Thank you.

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. Commissioner, I don’t intend to make an opening

statement today, given the urgent nature of these hearings so we will be going

straight to evidence when we’re ready to do so. 45

COMMISSIONER: Yes.


MR BEASLEY: It might assist if I make a very brief neutral submission on Mr

McLure’s submission.

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

5

MR BEASLEY: For him to hear that first before he makes any submission he wants

to make to you.

COMMISSIONER: Just for the record, so that anybody eventually following this

will not be mystified, there is an application on behalf of at least the present witness 10

and I presume also your corporate clients, Mr McLure.

MR McLURE: Yes, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: That there be – the holding of this hearing in private and/or that 15

there be non-publication of the evidence. Have I understood correctly?


COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Beasley. 20

MR BEASLEY: Could I just clarify that when Mr McLure and Ms Furness are

speaking that the microphones are sufficiently sensitive that it will be recorded in the

transcript.

25

MR McLURE: Commissioner, if it’s of assistance, I’ve received a message from

my instructor who is monitoring this hearing online and he tells me it’s very hard to

hear what Ms Furness and I have been saying.

COMMISSIONER: I hope you can hear me say my thanks for that information. 30

MR BEASLEY: Perhaps Mr McLure can sit in Mr Kirby’s seat for the purposes of

making his submission about the conduct of these hearings and then he’ll be able to

heard.

35

COMMISSIONER: Yes. I do apologise for that imperfection although I stress my

thanks for everybody who have worked as hard and quickly as they have to organise

this urgent occasion, and thank you for that suggested expedient.

MR BEASLEY: The only matters, Commissioner, I wish to put on the record in 40

response to the application Mr McLure is making on behalf of his clients are these:

firstly, there is a significant public interest in the subject matter of this inquiry.

Ordinarily, that public interest is best served by hearings being in public. There is

statutory support for that in section 7 of the Special Commissions of Inquiry Act

which in subsection (1) provides that you may hold hearings in connection with your 45

inquiry or your commission and, secondly, where you do decide to hold a hearing –

and this is subsection (2):


That hearing shall take place in public unless –

so the driving feature is that ordinarily hearings are to be in public. The public

interest is also, of course, served by if people are not able to be present in a hearing

room or able to watch the hearings on livestream that they be able to read a record of 5

what has taken place in public hearings in some form, such as reading a transcript

that has been posted on a website. Having said that, you do have power, obviously,

to hold hearings in private and you do have power to make non-publication orders,

and I don’t wish to make a submission as to what you should do in these

circumstances, other than to say there is a distinction in the circumstances of your 10

Commission and those that were involved in the High Court decision in Strickland,

but otherwise I see it as a matter for you.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr McLure, I’ve received the written submissions

of you and Mr O’Mahoney of the 22nd of April. Again, thank you very much for 15

their clarity. I don’t want to truncate anything you wish to add by way of emphasis

or elaboration. I appreciate this is an important application. Is there anything further

you want to say?

MR McLURE: Could I just mention two additional matters. Firstly, I accept of 20

course as Mr Beasley rightly says, there’s a public interest in the conduct of this

inquiry being conducted in public, however, I submit there’s an equal public interest

in protecting the rights of people who may be the subject of a criminal investigation.

The second observation I would make is that to the extent that conducting the

proceedings in private detracts from the otherwise existing public interest in the 25

inquiry. That can be dealt with in a number of ways, such as, for example, by the

publication of the Commission’s ultimate report in a way that still informs the public

about the Commission’s work, but at the same time protects the interests of the

witnesses.

30

COMMISSIONER: I’m interested in that last argument in particular. You’d be

familiar with part of the passage you drew to my attention in some of the reasons in

Strickland. I have in mind paragraph 77, which points out that there is a departure

from what I’m going to call a desirable norm in the administration of criminal justice

as soon as somebody who comes to be an accused has previously been compelled to 35

give information, including that which would otherwise be privileged on the ground

of self-incrimination.

And in paragraph 77, with some emphasis, their Honours point out that that is so

even if the material is kept secret, which I read as meaning apart from prosecutors – 40

away from prosecutors. And for my part, with some familiarity with Strickland, I

associate that with principles that, in particular, one sees in Hammond’s case. If that

is so, then my report, which is due mid-August this year, is very likely to come long

before any hypothetical – and I stress the word “hypothetical” – criminal

proceedings. I would not wish anyone hearing or reading what I’ve just said to think 45

that I have in mind any criminal proceedings.


It would be foolish not to understand that the history of reported investigations by

police and public administration has referred to the possible criminal liability of

unspecified persons, but I personally do not have any responsibility for and have no

criminal proceedings in mind. They are the responsibility of other agencies. But it

does mean that my report will, I think, on any view of it, long precede anything in 5

the nature of criminal proceedings. If that is true, then anything of what I might call

materiality concerning the conduct of any of the witnesses or the conduct of persons

who are referred to in the witnesses’ evidence, other persons, will very likely be

revealed in my report, which I think you can take for granted is unlikely to have any

significant sealed section. 10

I’m open to applications in regard to that, of course, at an appropriate time, but that is

the prima facie position, which, in my experience, is expected in such commissions.

It’s for those reasons that that I’m interested to know whether you see any analogy,

and if so, how it may be marshalled in relation to your application, with the usual 15

practice in ICAC, and the long-established practice, at least in this State, of

committals not being secret – not being private.

MR McLURE: Yes. Well, there are recent historical precedents, one quite recently

notorious, of there being a sealed section of a Royal Commission report that dealt 20

with someone who was then the subject of quite public criminal proceedings.

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR McLURE: We would urge you to adopt that same course in relation to the 25

evidence of the witnesses that we’ve identified. That is not to say, of course, that the

Commission would be unable to publish in its report a sufficiently informative

summary of the evidence but which still protected the interests of the witnesses. It’s

a little difficult to talk about it in the abstract, of course, because it depends on where

we get to. 30

COMMISSIONER: No. I’m sympathetic with the difficulty, and, please, I’m not

mistaking it for coyness or anything like that. I think I understand what you’re

saying. And I’m – as I hope is obvious from the two references we’ve already made

to other cases, I am familiar with the issues, and have a deal of sympathy with 35

respect to what I will call the usual expectations of criminal process. What I have

decided is that the public interest in the matters concerning which I have been

commissioned to inquire is such that given the great uncertainty as to whether there

would ever be any criminal proceedings in the train of my or any other inquiries, that

this hearing will be held in public. That’s my first ruling. 40

Second, that the asking and compelling of answers in a public hearing will be lawful,

which, as has been noted in the submission to me, distinguishes my position from the

position that attained, for example, in the dealings which were the subject of the

High Court’s ruling in Strickland. In other words, it is Parliament that has permitted 45

though not compelled the holding in public of hearings where evidence

notwithstanding a privilege against self-incrimination can be compelled. And, in my

.RUBY PRINCESS INQUIRY 22.4.20R1 P-7 I. VON WATZDORF XN

MR BEASLEY SC

view, the nature of the evidence in question, which concerns the dealings of very

nearly contemporaneous concern with respect to the pandemic is such that, in a

difficult balance, it ought to be struck in favour of publicity, and I so rule. Mr

Beasley - - -

5

MR BEASLEY: I’m ready to proceed with - - -

COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

MR BEASLEY: - - - the witness, your Honour. Before you’re sworn, Doctor, could 10

you please tell me how to pronounce your name correctly?

DR VON WATZDORF: It’s Ilse Von Watzdorf.

MR BEASLEY: Watzdorf. Thank you. 15

<ILSE VON WATZDORF, AFFIRMED [9.48 am]

20

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. I’m going to ask you a couple of preliminary

questions, Doctor, and then the Commissioner is going to say something to you about 25

a matter concerning the nature of the evidence you’re giving, and then I’m going to

ask you some questions about the Ruby Princess. First of all, can you give the

Commission your full name?

DR VON WATZDORF: It’s Ilse Von Watzdorf. 30

MR BEASLEY: And are you the senior doctor on the Ruby Princess cruise ship?

DR VON WATZDORF: I am.

35

MR BEASLEY: All right. Commissioner, do you want to say something about the

Act?

COMMISSIONER: Could I make this clear. Perhaps, Mr McLure, you can help me

here. I gather from the submission and from your appearance for the witness this 40

morning that you have explained to the witness the nature of the powers called

special powers in the Act which have been given to me?


45

COMMISSIONER: And their relation to privilege?


MR BEASLEY SC

MR McLURE: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: And the possibility of offences being committed for refusal to

answer or giving false or misleading testimony?

5

MR McLURE: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. May I then make it very clear, as clear

as I can, that the written submission by Mr McLure and Mr O’Mahoney has, with

admirable clarity, spelled out – and I accept that for the purposes of section 23, 10

subsection (3), paragraph (b) of the Special Commissions of Inquiry Act, I regard, it

is clear, that any answers given by this witness will not be answers which the witness

was willing to give within the meaning of that provision. And I gather, Mr McLure,

you’ve explained to the witness what that legal gobbledegook means by way of a

protection for her. 15

MR McLURE: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Doctor, I’m sorry to have taken up time with those

technicalities but they are, as I’m sure Mr McLure has explained to you and may 20

explain again, important in your interests so as to obtain the statutory protection that

the Act gives you in relation to your answers. Thank you for your patience. Mr

Beasley.

MR BEASLEY: Doctor, before I ask you any questions, I will just introduce 25

myself. My name is Richard Beasley. I’m one of the counsel assisting the

Commissioner in this inquiry. When I ask you some questions, can – I know you

will obviously tell me if you are not able to hear a question. But I would also you to

tell me if you don’t understand any of the questions I ask you. Is that okay?

30

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. It is.

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. How long have you – is your employer Princess

Cruises, or is it a different entity?

35

DR VON WATZDORF: It is Princess Cruises.

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. And how long have you worked for Princess Cruises?

DR VON WATZDORF: Just over five years. 40

MR BEASLEY: All that time as a doctor?

DR VON WATZDORF: That’s correct.

45

MR BEASLEY: And how long have you been the senior doctor on the Ruby

Princess?


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: Since the 24th of February.

MR BEASLEY: That was the trip prior to – that trip on the 24th of February, did the

ship go to Singapore, then to Australia?

5

DR VON WATZDORF: No. The 24th was going to New Zealand.

MR BEASLEY: Right. All right.

DR VON WATZDORF: And back to Australia. 10

MR BEASLEY: And then it came back to Australia on the 8th of March. Is that

right?

DR VON WATZDORF: That is correct. 15

MR BEASLEY: All right. Had you worked on another cruise ship before the 24th

of February?

DR VON WATZDORF: I’m sorry. Part of that question was not heard. Can you 20

please repeat, Mr Beasley?

MR BEASLEY: Prior to the 24th of February, had you been working as a doctor for

Princess Cruises on a different cruise ship?

25

DR VON WATZDORF: No. I was on leave.

MR BEASLEY: Prior to you going on leave, had you worked on a different cruise

ship for Princess Cruises as a doctor, other than the Ruby - - -

30

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes.

MR BEASLEY: - - - Princess. All right. What other ships have you - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. 35

MR BEASLEY: - - - worked on for Princess Cruises?

DR VON WATZDORF: The Caribbean Princess.

40

MR BEASLEY: That was the only one?

DR VON WATZDORF: And Sun Princess.

MR BEASLEY: Right. 45

DR VON WATZDORF: And the Regal Princess.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. And can I ask you, you said you’ve been working for

Princess Cruises for five years. When did you – when and where did you obtain your

medical qualifications?

DR VON WATZDORF: Obtained it in South Africa in 2005. 5

MR BEASLEY: All right. And so you had experience working as a doctor before

you were employed by Princess Cruises. Correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: Correct. 10

MR BEASLEY: All right. And what, was that working in hospitals as a general

practitioner? Can you give us some idea of your experience prior to being employed

by Princess Cruises?

15

DR VON WATZDORF: I worked in emergency medicine and I worked some of

my time in anaesthetics.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Thank you. Can you give me – you said you’re the

senior doctor on the Ruby Princess. Can you give the Commissioner some idea of 20

the size of the medical team on the ship? As I understand it, there’s another doctor

called Dr Dalvie. Is that correct?


25

MR BEASLEY: Are you and Dr Dalvie the only two medical practitioners?


MR BEASLEY: And how many nurses are – trained nurses are on the ship? 30

DR VON WATZDORF: Three nurses.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And there’s also some paramedics, are there?

35

DR VON WATZDORF: Two paramedics. That’s correct.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Can I ask you this, if someone is sick onboard and they

need the attention of a doctor, where do they go to? What’s it called? Is it called the

infirmary? Is it called the the onboard hospital? What’s it called? 40

DR VON WATZDORF: It’s either called – it’s usually called the medical centre,

but some people prefer to call it the infirmary, depending on their individual

backgrounds.

45

MR BEASLEY: All right. I just want to ask you in terms of chain of command

what happens if there’s a medical emergency on board. I’m not talking about


MR BEASLEY SC

someone presenting with symptoms of a cold. What I want to know is first, say

there’s a passenger on board who suffered a heart attack or a severe stroke and

they’re in a critical condition. You obviously provide some treatment. What are the

procedures then put in place in relation to a passenger that’s got a – facing a medical

emergency that needs critical care? 5

DR VON WATZDORF: So what typically would happen is the paramedic would

be the first point of contact, either at the medical centre itself or at – via a 911 call or

an emergency call. They would assess the patient and the on-call doctor would be

called in. 10

MR BEASLEY: All right.

DR VON WATZDORF: ..... maybe.

15

MR BEASLEY: And if the medical emergency is such that it can’t be handled

onboard because the passenger is so severely ill, who do you notify then as to what is

meant to happen or should happen?

DR VON WATZDORF: Well, it depends on the circumstance. If we are alongside 20

or it is – it also depends on what the emergency is and how time - - -

MR BEASLEY: Well, say it’s a - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - time-sensitive it is. 25

MR BEASLEY: - - - severe – it’s something in the nature of a severe stroke or a

critical emergency of that kind where a passenger needs critical care and they have to

be taken to a hospital off the ship. Who do you contact and what happens?

30

DR VON WATZDORF: Again, this depends on – we ..... typically for most cases,

that would be a phone call to the port agent who will then coordinate functions

including letting - - -

MR BEASLEY: So if you’re near – if you’re - - - 35

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - authorities know as well - - -

MR BEASLEY: Sorry. I cut you off - - -

40

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - organise an ambulance.

MR BEASLEY: - - - keep going. If you’re near a port, you contact the port agent to

organise things like an ambulance, do you?

45

DR VON WATZDORF: Hold on one second. That’s just an announcement. I’m

just going to mute you for a second. Could I do that?


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Yes, please. Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: My apologies. It’s still ongoing. Can we take just a

minute or two for it to finish? My apologies. It just finished.

5

MR BEASLEY: Thank you for that. So one option is the port agent to organise

something like an ambulance. Is that correct? If there is one.

DR VON WATZDORF: That would be the – yes. That would be the most common

process to follow, because if we get into port, we don’t have direct access to phoning 10

admittance services.

MR BEASLEY: But would you also - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: So the port agent is the person that usually - - - 15

MR BEASLEY: Sorry. You go ahead.

DR VON WATZDORF: Go ahead?

20

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Go ahead.

DR VON WATZDORF: Mr Beasley?

MR BEASLEY: Sorry. I thought I cut you off. Would you also tell someone else 25

onboard, though? Would you notify if there’s a critical emergency onboard in

relation to a passenger that needs to be taken off the ship because of the nature of

their illness, or what’s happening to them, would you also notify the captain or the

first officer? Who would be the first - - -

30

DR VON WATZDORF: We would typically notify – so there’s usually – the first

notification would be to the bridge to let them know - - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes?

35

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - that we are ..... ill patient, but usually that comes after

we notify the port agent. Obviously, we want the ambulance there as quick as

possible.

MR BEASLEY: Sure. 40

DR VON WATZDORF: We would notify the bridge to expect an ambulance,

usually with a courtesy call to the captain to just let them know that there is a sick

patient on board, and usually the courtesy call also then extends to the hotel general

manager to ease over any – call it, you know, other concerns, be it packing of 45

luggage, support to the family, and any other requirement that might be needed.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: All right. Thank you. I want to ask you some questions – I’m

going to ask you some questions now about the period from the 17th of March and

the 18th of March leading to the ship docking on the 19th of March, and I’m going to

direct this line of questioning to two of the passengers on board. The first is Mr

Anthony Londero. 5

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. You - - -

MR BEASLEY: Sorry. You missed - - -

10

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. You cut off again.


DR VON WATZDORF: The video feed. Yes. 15

MR BEASLEY: I’m going to ask you some questions about two passengers on

board and what medical care was provided to them. The first passenger is a person

called Mr Anthony Londero. Do you remember treating him?

20

DR VON WATZDORF: I do.

MR BEASLEY: And the other passenger I want to ask you about is a Mrs Leslie

Bacon. Do you recall treating her?

25


MR BEASLEY: And I think Mr Londero – both of those passengers were

Australians. Correct?

30

DR VON WATZDORF: As far as I know, yes.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And Mr Londero is a gentlemen of about 61 years.

DR VON WATZDORF: I cannot confirm that - - - 35


DR VON WATZDORF: - - - without having his chart in front of me.

40

MR BEASLEY: And Mrs Bacon was 77 years of age. Does that sound about right?

DR VON WATZDORF: Again, I cannot confirm or – I don’t have the exact time –

the date of birth for these patients in front of me.

45

MR BEASLEY: All right. That’s fine. Do you remember her as being a woman in

about her seventies, though? Does that – is that your recollection?


MR BEASLEY SC


MR BEASLEY: Yes. All right.

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. Yes. 5

MR BEASLEY: Dealing firstly with Mr Londero, he presented with some

symptoms I think on the 11th of March. Does that sound about right?

DR VON WATZDORF: No. I think he only presented on the 16th of March. 10

MR BEASLEY: You think the 16th?

DR VON WATZDORF: If my recollection serves me correct. I am – again, I

cannot confirm that - - - 15

MR BEASLEY: Actually, I’ll correct myself.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - because I don’t have the chart in front of me.

20

MR BEASLEY: I actually think you’re right. It was the 16th, but he may have told

you that he first had some symptoms of an upper respiratory tract infection on the

11th. Does that sound right?

DR VON WATZDORF: Again, I can’t 100 per cent confirm that. It sounds like it 25

could – you know, could be correct. I just don’t have his chart in front of me.

MR BEASLEY: All right. When you say you don’t have his chart in front of me, I

understand that, and I’m going to do the – we’ll do the best we can on memory first,

but can I just ask you, the medical records for Mr Londero and Mrs Bacon, are they 30

both – copies of those still on the ship with you?

DR VON WATZDORF: We have .....

MR BEASLEY: Sorry. You cut out. I think you said you have them. Is that right? 35

DR VON WATZDORF: We have electronic versions of them, yes.


40

DR VON WATZDORF: There’s an electronic archive system.

MR BEASLEY: So they’re easily accessible. Correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: They are. 45

MR BEASLEY: Great. Thank you.


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: From a set number of computers within the medical

centre.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And am I right that both – they may have had some

other medical issues, but both Mr Londero and Mrs Bacon, who I think presented to 5

the medical centre on the 17th of March, had symptoms consistent with an influenza-

like illness. Correct?


10

MR BEASLEY: All right. And can you tell me, outside of yourself, what members

of the ship’s medical staff provided treatment to Mr Londero and Mrs Bacon?

DR VON WATZDORF: So both of these patients were admitted into the medical

centre, so there would be a range of people involved. I would need to go back on the 15

duty rosters to see who else had contact with them.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Can you tell us - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: But it would be pretty much the entire medical team. 20

MR BEASLEY: All right. Can you tell us in terms of your own involvement firstly

with Mr Londero what treatment you provided to him?

DR VON WATZDORF: So Mr Londero presented with an upper respiratory tract 25

infection and had a fever. We diagnosed him as an ILI, but in the workup that we

performed, we found that he was having – sorry. Let me just double-check

something. These – this inquiry in terms of patient confidentiality - - -

MR BEASLEY: Don’t worry about that. There’s - - - 30

DR VON WATZDORF: Am I allowed to share?

MR BEASLEY: Yes, you are.

35

COMMISSIONER: Yes, you are. Yes, please.

MR BEASLEY: I think you were going to tell us - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Right. So Mr Londero - - - 40

MR BEASLEY: - - - that he also had a heart problem as well, did he?

DR VON WATZDORF: So Mr Londero had what we call a troponin leak. So on

his blood tests it showed that he was having a small heart attack or signs of – to put it 45

simplistic, cardiac muscle damage.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Right.

DR VON WATZDORF: So he had elevated troponin. His EKG was performed and

it was showing that he had a non-reassuring EKG at the time.

5

MR BEASLEY: All right. And - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: ..... time – not because he was so ill or unwell because of

his respiratory tract infection, but because of his cardiac irritability and the cardiac

diagnosis that he had. 10

MR BEASLEY: Just - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: The cardiac diagnosis warranted follow-up. It – apologies.

Go ahead. 15

MR BEASLEY: No, you go ahead.

DR VON WATZDORF: The cardiac condition is – was of such a nature that if you

follow guidelines, you are required to admit them for 48 hours of treatment with 20

certain medications, and that is what we did.

MR BEASLEY: When - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: From a respiratory illness perspective, he was quite stable. 25

He didn’t require admission. Again, I’m saying this subject to looking at my – my

notes - - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

30

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - and his vital signs and all the – that’s on his record.

MR BEASLEY: Your recollection - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: But - - - 35

MR BEASLEY: Sorry. Can I - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: I don’t recall him – I don’t recall him – yes. Go ahead.

40

MR BEASLEY: In relation to the symptoms he had of an influenza-like illness, you

mentioned he had a fever. Correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: He had a fever, and if I remember ..... cannot again say

100 per cent. I do not have his chart in front of me. 45


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Would it be very easy for you to get his chart in front of you? You

said it’s an electronic record. Do you have a laptop there where you could actually

look at his chart?

DR VON WATZDORF: I have a laptop but it is not authorised to look at the 5

particulars of his case. These are only accessible in the medical centre themselves,

which is not where I am.

MR BEASLEY: All right. We’ll leave that for the time being. We’ll come back to

it. Do you have a recollection that Mr Londero presented with a sore throat? 10

DR VON WATZDORF: He might have.

MR BEASLEY: A cough?

15

DR VON WATZDORF: I cannot tell you. I cannot tell you.

MR BEASLEY: He was, however - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: He had respiratory symptoms. 20

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: And he had a fever.

25

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. He was ultimately tested for influenza. Correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: That is correct. We would have tested him.

MR BEASLEY: And that test was negative. Correct? 30

DR VON WATZDORF: I cannot recall what his test was. I do – I do seem to think

that it was negative.

MR BEASLEY: Can I help you with that. I’ve this morning been provided with the 35

log that the ship provided to New South Wales authorities in relation to acute

respiratory illness. You know the log I’m talking about?


40

MR BEASLEY: And for Mr Londero, it’s showing influenza test, flu A plus B

negative. Does that assist you that - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: That would mean it’s negative, yes.

45

MR BEASLEY: Yes. All right. And a – he was swabbed for a COVID-19 test. Do

you recall that?


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes, I do.

MR BEASLEY: But that – the results that test – tell me this. Did the ship have

capacity itself to perform a COVID-19 test and determine whether a passenger or

crew member was either positive or negative for that? 5

DR VON WATZDORF: No, we did not have the capacity.

MR BEASLEY: So that had to be done onshore somewhere.

10


MR BEASLEY: Right. All right. And Mrs Bacon – do you recall that she also had

a fever? Correct?

15

DR VON WATZDORF: She had a fever. That’s correct.

MR BEASLEY: And she had – did she also have a sore throat, do you recall?

DR VON WATZDORF: I cannot – I cannot recall the exact symptoms. 20

MR BEASLEY: All right. But she had symptoms - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: But she did have a respiratory tract infection, yes.

25

MR BEASLEY: Influenza-like illness symptoms is your recollection. Correct?


MR BEASLEY: And she also, I think, had some leg pain you mentioned. 30

DR VON WATZDORF: So she had lower back pain and weakness in one of her

lower limbs, if I recall – if my recollection serves me right.

MR BEASLEY: And did you think that was - - - 35

DR VON WATZDORF: Again - - -

MR BEASLEY: - - - consistent with a femoral nerve problem?

40

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. I was concerned that she had a femoral nerve

compression or a - - -

MR BEASLEY: All right. She was - - -

45

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - which is, again - - -


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Go on.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - she could not mobilise - - -

MR BEASLEY: All right. 5

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - she could not mobilise at all without assistance. She

could not walk with significant weakness in her left leg, and she had reported to be

walking normally earlier in the cruise.

10

MR BEASLEY: Can I ask you this - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: The pattern of – of weakness would be consistent with a

nerve compression.

15

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. Do you have a recollection of when Mrs Bacon told

you that she started to feel unwell in terms of first of all her flu-like symptoms?

DR VON WATZDORF: I cannot recall exactly.

20

MR BEASLEY: All right. I’ll help you again. If the log says, “Symptoms onset 17

March,” that’s probably when she told you she started to feel unwell. Correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: That’s highly likely. Yes.

25

MR BEASLEY: Yes. And for Mr Londero, I said the 11th of March. That’s what’s

recorded in the log, so that’s probably correct as well.

DR VON WATZDORF: It should be.

30

MR BEASLEY: All right. Thank you. Thank you. Did both Mr Londero and Mrs

Bacon remain in the medical centre until they were – from the time they went in

there, did they stay in the medical centre until such time as the ambulance came to

collect them after the ship had docked in Sydney?

35

DR VON WATZDORF: Mr Londero completed 48 hours admission in the medical

centre and was desperate to go out and have a shower in his own cabin. So he had

completed his 48 hours. We released him for a couple of hours – I’m saying a

couple of hours, but it’s probably about – and I – again, I don’t have this – these

times, but say six or eight hours, he was allowed to go back to his cabin. He was 40

advised to stay in the cabin, but he really wanted to just kind of be – have a shower

in his own cabin and put on his own new clothes and - - -

MR BEASLEY: All right. He was - - -

45

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - all that and he - - -


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: He was – he was – he was - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - ..... medical - - -

MR BEASLEY: - - - obviously able to walk. 5

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - .....

MR BEASLEY: Sorry. Go on.

10

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. So he was released back to his cabin with strict

instructions to remain in the cabin under isolation and not to go out. He – he

presented back to the medical centre later that evening to be disembarked.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. 15

DR VON WATZDORF: Mrs Bacon was admitted the entire time - - -

MR BEASLEY: Right.

20

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - after her presentation.

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. It’s partly my fault and it’s the partly the fault that we

are doing this by audio-visual, but I’ve noticed that I have quite regularly cut you off

unintentionally when I thought you’d finished an answer. If I do that, please don’t 25

hesitate to interrupt me and say you hadn’t completed your answer. All right.

DR VON WATZDORF: That’s all right.

MR BEASLEY: All right. I’m not intending - - - 30

DR VON WATZDORF: Thank you.

MR BEASLEY: - - - to cut you off. If I can deal then with – I’m going to come

back to this, but both – as we’ve – you’ve already said, both of these particular 35

passengers were tested and found negative for flu A and B and for both of them,

swabs were collected for a COVID-19 test. Correct?


40

MR BEASLEY: Can you tell the Commissioner why they were swabbed for a

COVID-19 test?

DR VON WATZDORF: At the times that we were in, I was trying to be sure that

we would – if there was a chance of it being COVID that we would know about it 45

and that we would pick that up. I also expected New South Wales Public Health to

be wanting these swabs to be tested as soon as we docked, because that had been the


MR BEASLEY SC

procedure the previous time, and this is the reason I swabbed them, to have the swabs

ready to go at 3 o’clock in the morning.

COMMISSIONER: Doctor, did you just - - -

5

DR VON WATZDORF: When we arrived, or 3.30.

COMMISSIONER: Doctor, did you just in that answer refer to wanting to know

about COVID, that is, picking COVID up?

10

DR VON WATZDORF: I wanted to – I wanted to be sure that we don’t miss

anything.

COMMISSIONER: But - - -

15

MR BEASLEY: But you said the times we were in. That’s obviously a reference, I

take it, to the fact that – and I’m going to come back to this in more detail, but you

were obviously aware as a medical practitioner in a cruise ship that COVID-19 had

been present onboard other cruise ships including, for example, the Diamond

Princess. 20

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. Sorry. You cut out there. The first part of the

question again, if you don’t mind, or the second?

MR BEASLEY: Part of, in the answer you gave me as to why the passengers that 25

we’re talking about, the two passengers, Mr Londero and Mrs Bacon, were swabbed

for COVID-19, I thought I heard you say it was partly because of the “times we were

in.” I took that as a reference to your knowledge - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Increased awareness of - - - 30

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - the – of there being a risk of COVID-19 at any and all

times. 35

MR BEASLEY: Yes. All right. Thank you.

COMMISSIONER: But Doctor, what – I just wanted to - - -

40

DR VON WATZDORF: And - - -

COMMISSIONER: - - - I just wanted to clear up, I thought, and if I am wrong I

apologise, I thought you had said in that longer answer that you wanted to be able to

pick up COVID-19, and I’m wondering how that could be done if all you could do 45

would be to take swabs for later onshore testing.


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. The video feed is interrupted. Sorry if I’m

interrupting you.

COMMISSIONER: No. Not at all. I just wanted to - - -

5

DR VON WATZDORF: I’m so sorry.

COMMISSIONER: You would not actually know, do I understand correctly, that

there was COVID-19 onboard until a swab had been tested. Is that correct?

10

DR VON WATZDORF: That is correct, and I would anticipate, as they had done

the previous turnaround, and that is why I collected them.

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

15

DR VON WATZDORF: But there would be no way of knowing whether there is

indeed COVID-19 onboard a cruise ship – onboard the Ruby Princess at that time

because we could not analyse any samples.

COMMISSIONER: But it goes without saying you were not testing everybody on 20

board, were you?

DR VON WATZDORF: No.

COMMISSIONER: And you were only testing where there was, in your 25

professional opinion, an indication that it was appropriate – sorry, you were only

taking a swab when it was, in your professional opinion, appropriate to do so. Is that

right?

DR VON WATZDORF: Again, sorry. It - - - 30

MR BEASLEY: You - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - there was a bit of an interruption in the video feed.

35

MR BEASLEY: I think what - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: You were asking whether - - -

MR BEASLEY: What the Commissioner’s asking you is, I think, that you swabbed 40

these people for the COVID-19 test because they had – they tested negative for flu,

but they had symptoms that were consistent with the possibility that they had the

coronavirus.

DR VON WATZDORF: These individuals presented to us with influenza-like 45

illness, which fits the case definition at the time of – of – of disease processes and –

or persons under investigation or under – of interest. For COVID-19, they had a


MR BEASLEY SC

negative influenza test. Now, our influenza tests onboard are what we call point-of-

care testing, so they are not as - - -

MR BEASLEY: We lost that.

5

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - and because – hear that?

MR BEASLEY: No. Just pause there for a second, Doctor. A lot - - -

COMMISSIONER: It’s breaking up, I’m sorry, Doctor. 10

MR BEASLEY: - - - quite a few of the words you just said didn’t come through to

us. You were talking about point-of-care.

DR VON WATZDORF: ..... 15

MR BEASLEY: Can you hear me now?

DR VON WATZDORF: I can. Yes.

20

COMMISSIONER: Could you just explain again, see whether we can get all the

words this time, Doctor. It’s not your fault. What was the implication of your

onboard testing for influenza being point-of-care testing?

DR VON WATZDORF: So the influenza test – let me put it this way. Any point-25

of-care test is never quite as sensitive as a confirmed laboratory testing. In – in – in

terms of the sensitivity, specificity of the test itself.

MR BEASLEY: Does that – does that mean - - -

30

DR VON WATZDORF: .....

MR BEASLEY: - - - sometimes, there’s a negative result when the patient or the

passenger actually does have influenza?

35

DR VON WATZDORF: It is possible. Yes. Just the same as it is even possible

with a formal laboratory test to have the same scenario.

COMMISSIONER: Is there an understanding, Doctor, as to whether it’s biased

towards false positive or false negative or neither? 40

DR VON WATZDORF: I wouldn’t think that there’s a bias towards it. I think we

are conscious of the fact that there’s a sensitivity and specificity issue, and if we have

a negative influenza test, that it doesn’t necessarily mean that it is not influenza,

though we tend to treat patients for influenza if they meet case definition criteria 45

regardless of the – of the test result. And under these circumstances, it would be

prudent to collect a swab for COVID-19 for it to be tested.


MR BEASLEY SC

COMMISSIONER: Does it follow, Doctor, that it would also be - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: One can never say there is no risk.

COMMISSIONER: Does it follow that it would also be prudent to proceed in cases 5

like those two on the basis that they may well have COVID-19.

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry, the feed cut out again. If you could repeat.

COMMISSIONER: Does it follow that it would also be prudent in the case of those 10

two patients to proceed as if they may well have COVID-19?

DR VON WATZDORF: I think that would be prudent. Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Is that what you did? 15

DR VON WATZDORF: That is what I did.

COMMISSIONER: And is that something that informed, so far as you can recall it,

all the dealings you had onshore and onboard in relation to those patients? 20

DR VON WATZDORF: I’m sorry, the feed has cut out again.

MR BEASLEY: Let’s take it step by step. You determined, did you, that both of

these passengers, Mr Londero and Mr Bacon - - - 25

COMMISSIONER: Mrs Bacon.

MR BEASLEY: Mrs Bacon, I’m sorry, needed an ambulance, rather than being

able to disembark themselves. Correct. 30

DR VON WATZDORF: That I correct. And let me put this clear, not because of

their respiratory illness but because of the time sensitive nature of Mr Londero’s

cardiac condition and the fact that Mrs Bacon needed further investigation for the

weakness, the acute onset of weakness in her – I can’t remember which leg it was ..... 35

I could be wrong.

MR BEASLEY: I think you said the left leg. All right. Thank you for that. Was it

you that made – that took the steps yourself to ensure that ambulances were at the

passenger terminal when the ship docked for these two passengers. 40

DR VON WATZDORF: I requested the port agent to arrange two ambulances for

me for the disembarkation of the passengers on arrival in Sydney.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And was the port agent – is her name Bibi Tokovic, T-o-45

k-o-v-i-c?


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: Her preferred is Bibi. That’s - - -

MR BEASLEY: All right. I’m happy to call her Bibi. I was going to call her Ms

Tokovic but if you know her as Bibi I’ll - - -

5

COMMISSIONER: We’ll call her - - -

MR BEASLEY: I’m told I really should call her Ms Tokovic so we’ll have to bear

with me on that. Was this a phone call you had with Ms Tokovic?

10

DR VON WATZDORF: I cannot recall.

MR BEASLEY: Well, you can’t recall - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: To be honest. 15

MR BEASLEY: - - - how you communicated with her?

DR VON WATZDORF: No. It would have been either email or phone call. It

would have been one of the two. If there’s - - - 20

MR BEASLEY: All right. Just - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - no email trail ..... it was telephonic.

25

MR BEASLEY: Just pausing there, if it was email there would be a record, correct.


MR BEASLEY: Would you – you’d still have a copy of the email you sent Ms 30

Tokovic.

DR VON WATZDORF: I’m not – I can’t comment. I don’t know. I don’t know

the answer to that.

35

MR BEASLEY: Well, it’s like to be in the ship’s records, correct. You yourself

wouldn’t have deleted that email, correct. Sorry, did you hear me? You would not

have deleted that email.

DR VON WATZDORF: Not consciously. 40

MR BEASLEY: I beg your pardon?

DR VON WATZDORF: Not consciously. Not – I wouldn’t have consciously

deleted the email. No. 45

MR BEASLEY: Well, you wouldn’t have unconsciously - - -


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: I – to be - - -

MR BEASLEY: - - - deleted it either, would you? A record like - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: May I? 5

MR BEASLEY: Can I ask you this: a record like that you’d normally keep, Doctor,

correct. You wouldn’t randomly start deleting emails concerning passenger illness

and your communication with the port agent about getting an ambulance for them,

correct. 10

DR VON WATZDORF: No, not usually.


15

DR VON WATZDORF: But I should also note that I’ve had four hours of sleep for

the last month, every night, four to five hours of sleep. So bear with me.

MR BEASLEY: I am deeply sympathetic to the situation you’ve found yourself in

for quite some time. We all understand that. All right. So if it was – whether it was 20

an email or a phone conversation with Ms Tokovic, you provided her, I assume, with

details concerning the medical condition of Mr Londero and Mrs Bacon, correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: The first part of the question cut out; could you repeat?

25

MR BEASLEY: You – whether it was by email communication or a phone call, you

would have given, did you not, Ms Tokovic details of the medical condition for Mr

Londero and Mrs Bacon.

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes, I would have. 30

MR BEASLEY: And do you recall telling Ms Tokovic that both Mr Londero and

Mrs Bacon had influenza-like illness symptoms?

DR VON WATZDORF: I do, yes. 35

MR BEASLEY: And a high temperature.


40

MR BEASLEY: And that they had tested negative for influenza.

DR VON WATZDORF: I don’t know whether I would have gone into that much

detail with the port agent. I would have said that I – well, again, this is speculation –

not speculation, but I don’t have my records in front on me so - - - 45


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: No. All right. Can I ask you to make this assumption: if Ms

Tokovic told New South Wales Ambulance that Mr Londero and Mrs Bacon had

tested negative for influenza, that information could only have come to Ms Tokovic

from you, correct?

5


MR BEASLEY: And if Ms Tokovic told New South Wales Ambulance that both

Mr Londero and Mrs Bacon had been swabbed for COVID-19 but the test results

weren’t available yet, that information could only have come from you, correct? 10


MR BEASLEY: And if Ms Tokovic told New South Wales Ambulance that

precautions needed to be taken with these two patients – passengers as a result of that 15

because they could have coronavirus, that information could only have come from

you, correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: I – I didn’t – I did tell Bibi to please be sure that the

ambulance personnel were to have the correct PPE in place because we did not have 20

a confirmed diagnosis on either of these two. And being an upper respiratory or a

respiratory illness with a fever that it would be prudent .....

MR BEASLEY: Yes. And when you say didn’t have a confirmed diagnosis, the

relevant diagnosis was there was no confirmed diagnosis for coronavirus. 25

DR VON WATZDORF: No, it means that I don’t have a confirmed diagnosis for

the organism in play. That doesn’t mean it’s coronavirus or it’s not coronavirus. It

just means that I don’t know.

30

MR BEASLEY: Correct – yes.

COMMISSIONER: Doctor, we’re just using the expression coronavirus. There’s

more than one kind of coronavirus. Did you understand those questions to be

referring to what we are calling the organism responsible for COVID-19 disease? 35

DR VON WATZDORF: I did, yes.


40

MR BEASLEY: All right. Do I understand your last answer, though, before the

Commissioner asked that question to be the precautions need to be taken because (a)

both of these passengers had influenza-like illness, (b) the test for influenza had

come back negative, (c) you had swabbed them for COVID-19 but didn’t have a

result for that and therefore there is no confirmed COVID-19 diagnosis of course but 45

that can’t be ruled as a real risk. Correct.


MR BEASLEY SC


MR BEASLEY: Thank you.

DR VON WATZDORF: So if you have a febrile upper respiratory illness - - - 5

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - that is not only two organisms that can cause it. It’s

not only coronavirus and influenza-like illness – sorry, influenza and coronavirus. 10

There is a host of other diseases that could cause a upper respiratory tract infection

that will also have a fever, not to count strep throat and a few others. The one

doesn’t exclude the other. What we have is patients with viral – not viral, my

apologies, wrong word, with a febrile upper respiratory tract infection who have a

negative influenza test in an environment ..... where, as we do always, and that is 15

why the precautions were taken.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. And do you recall also telling Ms Tokovic that both Mr

Londero and Mrs Bacon needed assessment at an emergency department of a

hospital? 20

DR VON WATZDORF: I can’t recall that being my words. They – I referred them

that – our referrals always go by the emergency room for assessment.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Let me help you this way: assume that when she rang 25

the ambulance, Ms Tokovic said to the ambulance people, apart from the other things

I’ve gone through, that both these patients need assessment at an emergency

department of a hospital and she nominated the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital. Is it

your recollection that you told her that they should go to that particular hospital?

30

DR VON WATZDORF: I can’t recall saying Royal Prince – you said Royal –

sorry. I can’t recall saying RPA, per se. I would’ve just said they need to go to a

hospital and they need to have the appropriate – the ambulance staff need to have the

appropriate PPE in place and, you know, they need to be taken to the correct and

adequate facility. 35

MR BEASLEY: Did you – by that answer, I take it you don’t have any recollection

that you had been provided any information by New South Wales Health that RPA

had a COVID-19 clinic and it was one of the main hospitals to take people with a

risk of having – or a suspicion of having COVID-19 to that hospital? 40

DR VON WATZDORF: I did have a conversation with one of the staff at New

South Wales Public Health about the disembarkations, because that was part of the

declaration. We – it was in the declaration we made. And part of that conversation

was including do we send the swabs with the patients, or do we send them separately 45

via the Public Health pathway, and the answer to that was you sent them via the


MR BEASLEY SC

Public Health pathway because there was the potential of the tests getting lost if they

go with the patients.


5

DR VON WATZDORF: I was under the impression – it might be not because it

was stated, but I was under the impression that we might get the results faster if we

had sent it with Public Health because they would be able to prioritise the processing

of these swabs.

10

MR BEASLEY: All right. Is the person that you - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: As a second point to that.

MR BEASLEY: Sorry? 15

DR VON WATZDORF: The point - - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

20

DR VON WATZDORF: To add to that, there was the conversation of having

additional discussion and they – the person I spoke to or – I can’t recall whether this

was an email or a telephonic conversation. I had several of both in those 48 hours

before our arrival. But there was mention that they should wear the correct PPE and

that we need to make sure that the call gets related that way, which is what I recall 25

doing, and I want to say that, you know, I just cannot recall whether RPA was

nominated directly - - -

MR BEASLEY: Can I help you - - -

30

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - or whether - - -

MR BEASLEY: Can I help you this way. If Ms Tokovic told ambulance that these

two passengers need to be taken to the RPA, the likelihood is that you’ve – that’s

something you’ve informed Ms Tokovic about. Correct? 35

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes and no, because she also was in communications with

New South Wales Public Health or was copied in to emails with New South Wales

Public Health, so it might have been myself. It might have been - - -

40

MR BEASLEY: Right.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - New South Wales Public Health. I just cannot recall

at this point.

45

MR BEASLEY: Can I - - -


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: But they were privy to the same - - -

MR BEASLEY: With New South Wales Public Health – I’ll come back to this, but

the person you’re talking about that you had contact with, was that someone by the

name of Dr Kelly Ressler? 5

DR VON WATZDORF: For the most part, yes.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. And she - - -

10

DR VON WATZDORF: That was not the only communication, but it - - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes. And I’ll say this wrong, but she’s an epidemiologist.

Correct?

15

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. That broke up. I - - -

MR BEASLEY: I have to do it again.

DR VON WATZDORF: I didn’t get that. 20

MR BEASLEY: She is an - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry.

25

MR BEASLEY: She’s an epidemiologist, right? Epidemiologist.

DR VON WATZDORF: I don’t know what her role - - -

MR BEASLEY: Okay. 30

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - description is at - - -

MR BEASLEY: But she was someone - - -

35

DR VON WATZDORF: At New South Wales Public Health.

MR BEASLEY: She was someone at New South Wales Health that you were from

time to time exchanging, for example, WhatsApp messages with.

40


COMMISSIONER: Just for the sake of precision on the record, you addressed her

as Kelly, but her name is Kelly-Anne Ressler, and you understand that she’s part of

the staff of the South Eastern Sydney Local Health District. Is that correct? 45



MR BEASLEY SC


MS FURNESS: Commissioner, can I just clarify that it’s Ms Ressler, not Dr

Ressler.

5

MR BEASLEY: Thanks.

COMMISSIONER: I’m obliged. Thank you.

MR BEASLEY: Doctor, if you assume also that Ms Tokovic told the ambulance 10

apart from the influenza-like illness symptoms that Mrs Bacon and Mr Londero had,

that in relation to Mr Londero, she also informed the ambulance that he had a heart

condition, and that Mrs Bacon had an issue with her femoral nerve in her leg and

severe back pain. With that level of detail, does that assist you to think that you may

have sent something in writing to Ms Tokovic rather than had a phone conversation 15

with her?

DR VON WATZDORF: I said – yes. As I said previously, the Sydney Port agents

were copied into the email to New South Wales Public Health, the chain of emails

that – that we did as part of our declaration prior to arrival, and that information was 20

captured in that – that email as well, so I cannot tell you whether there was a separate

email - - -

MR BEASLEY: Right.

25

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - or whether that is just part of that email chain.

MR BEASLEY: I understand. All right. Thank you. Did you talk yourself to any

doctor at the RPA where these two patients – passengers were going?

30


MR BEASLEY: Did you pass on any of the hospital’s – sorry – any of the ship’s

medical centre records about them to the doctors at the - - -

35


MR BEASLEY: - - - RPA?


MR BEASLEY: You did? When was that done?


45

MR BEASLEY: When was that done?


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: Video broke up.

MR BEASLEY: When did you pass on the ship’s medical records concerning Mr

Londero and Mrs Bacon to the RPA?

5

DR VON WATZDORF: So we send – we always send a referral letter with the

patient.

MR BEASLEY: So there was – they went with their medical records, did they, in

the ambulance? Is that right? 10

DR VON WATZDORF: They did. They did.

MR BEASLEY: Great. Thank you.

15

DR VON WATZDORF: They did. I should add - - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: I should add that – sorry. If I may. 20

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Go ahead.

DR VON WATZDORF: I don’t want to interrupt you.

25

MR BEASLEY: No. You go ahead. You wanted to add something. Please feel

free.

DR VON WATZDORF: On arrival in Sydney, it was that the – I think there’s a bit

of a delay on the line because I’m the one - - - 30

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - interrupting you now instead of the other way around.

My apologies. That’s not the intention. 35

MR BEASLEY: That’s all right.

DR VON WATZDORF: The way the – the way it works upon arrival in Sydney is

that we have usually very little say about which hospital patients get taken to. This is 40

a decision made by the – whoever is the dispatching authority - - -

MR BEASLEY: All right. Thank you.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - side. 45

MR BEASLEY: Prior to - - -


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: Or are able to make.

MR BEASLEY: All right. After you’ve, told by whatever means, the port agent

that these two passengers required an ambulance, do you recall having a phone or

radio conversation with someone from New South Wales Vessel Transport Services 5

with both I think the captain and the staff captain of the ship?

DR VON WATZDORF: I do recall that, yes.


DR VON WATZDORF: It was something like, I don’t know, 2 o’clock in the

morning.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. And you told that person – do you recall what the reason for 15

that phone call was, first of all?

DR VON WATZDORF: I was phoned by I think the staff captain stating – 2

o’clock in the morning and it’s quite a while ago, but something to the effect that

somebody from the harbour master wants to talk to me, something like this. 20

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: I had a conversation with somebody on the other end that

identified themselves – I don’t have the identification, but it had sounded like they 25

were with the – either with the harbour master or working for the harbour master.

MR BEASLEY: They may have used the acronym - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: And the question - - - 30

MR BEASLEY: Did they use the acronym VTS? Does that ring a bell?

DR VON WATZDORF: I can’t recall.

35

MR BEASLEY: All right. Please - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: To be honest.

MR BEASLEY: - - - proceed. Go on. 40

DR VON WATZDORF: In the conversation, they wanted to know whether there

really – and I can’t – I – my apologies. It was 2 o’clock in the morning. I had just

woken up. But I seem to recall that they wanted to know about the number of

patients that we had declared - - - 45

MR BEASLEY: Right.


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - and that there was some concern about it. I do seem –

seem to recall that I had said that yes, we had quite a number of patients, as per the

declaration, but that we had been cleared – not cleared, but that we were allowed to

disembark as per New South Wales Public Health.

5

MR BEASLEY: Just pausing - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: I - - -

MR BEASLEY: - - - there – just pausing there, that means you’d already been 10

informed that New South Wales Public Health had said the ship can dock and

disembark its passengers, correct, at this time?

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. We had – we had received an email.

15

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Yes. I’ll come back to that. But – and just for the record,

we’re talking about 2 am - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Nineteenth.

20

MR BEASLEY: - - - on the 19th of March. Correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: First part of the question was unclear. Say again.

MR BEASLEY: We’re talking about 2 am in the morning on the 19th of March, just 25

prior - - -


MR BEASLEY: - - - to the ship docking. 30

DR VON WATZDORF: I’m so sorry. You’re going to need to say that a third

time. The video feed has broken up again.

MR BEASLEY: When we’re talking about 2 am in the morning and you’ve just 35

woken up and you’re about to have this phone conversation with someone from

vessel transport New South Wales, we’re talking about 2 am in the morning on the

19th of March - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: On the - - - 40

MR BEASLEY: - - - a couple of hours before the ship docking. Correct?


45

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. All right. And you told this person that you had a

number of unwell passengers on board.


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: The – they were – they enquired about the number of

people that we had declared, and I said, “It is as the declaration. We have seen

increased numbers of patients.” Again, this is my recollection. It might or might not

be exact.

5

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: They asked about the medical disembarkations, and I think

the words they used were, “We were worried that this is a bogus call,” and - - -

10

MR BEASLEY: But - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - well, I don’t know what you mean with a bogus call.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. 15

DR VON WATZDORF: But we said, “We have two patients that need to be

medically disembarked.”

MR BEASLEY: Yes. 20

DR VON WATZDORF: They wanted to know what was wrong with them, if I

remember correctly, and I stated the same to them. They had a febrile upper

respiratory tract infection which had tested negative for influenza. I – I think I would

have said that, because that’s in the script of the email - - - 25

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - that I sent, but I cannot be sure. And that – but that

the actual reason for disembarkation is not for that – for medical – or for – for – for 30

urgent medical disembarkation, was not that but the cardiac condition and the other

lady has a back/weakness of the leg.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Do - - -

35

DR VON WATZDORF: But that is the reason for – because the impression that I

got at that time was, why are they emergency disembarkations? Why are we coming

in – the impression that I got from the conversation was, why we are we coming in at

3 o’clock in the morning to disembark these guests.

40

MR BEASLEY: Right. Can I - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: And – yes. Go. Sure. Go ahead.

MR BEASLEY: Can I help you with this. Do you recall telling the person from 45

VTS that there were a number of passengers onboard the ship with upper respiratory

tract infections first? Correct?


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: I may or may not have said - - -


DR VON WATZDORF: - - - that. Yes. It’s - - - 5

MR BEASLEY: And - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - I can’t recall it, per se.

10

MR BEASLEY: Do you remember saying that you had about up to 120 sick

passengers onboard?

DR VON WATZDORF: I can’t whether I – what number I used.

15

MR BEASLEY: Do you remember telling - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Or I cannot - - -

MR BEASLEY: Do you remember - - - 20

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - recall.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Do you remember telling this person that they have been

put in isolation? 25

DR VON WATZDORF: I cannot recall.

MR BEASLEY: Is it a fact that you had those people with upper respiratory tract

infections in isolation on the ship? 30

DR VON WATZDORF: We did not have everybody in isolation.

MR BEASLEY: No, no, no.

35

DR VON WATZDORF: We had - - -

MR BEASLEY: Not everyone.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - individuals - - - 40

MR BEASLEY: In – the people that had upper respiratory tract infections, they

were in isolation. Correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: Not – not – not all of them were in isolation. 45

MR BEASLEY: All right. How many - - -


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: The ones that - - -

MR BEASLEY: - - - do you recall?

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - were in isolation were the ones – the ones that were in 5

isolation were the ones that met influenza-like illness criteria.

MR BEASLEY: Right. And how many do you recall were passengers that had

symptoms consistent with that criteria?

10

DR VON WATZDORF: I cannot recall now.


DR VON WATZDORF: I don’t have my records in front of me. 15

MR BEASLEY: What is meant by isolation? Can you explain that to the

Commissioner?

DR VON WATZDORF: So what we did on board, we have a diagnosis ..... patient 20

having acute respiratory disease as well as a fever. That patient gets – whether they

– really, whether they have tested positive or negative for flu would get influenza

treatment - - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes. 25

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - because of what we’ve said previously. They would

be told to stay in their cabins and they would be followed up twice a day for a

temperature measurement, and if they have no fever for at least 24 hours and having

significant improvement of their symptoms, they would be released out of said 30

isolation. That would be the definition of isolation.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Were – had all these people that you had in isolation,

had they been tested for influenza?

35


MR BEASLEY: And were they people that had tested for influenza, but their result

was negative.

40

DR VON WATZDORF: No. We – that would be regardless of whether you tested

positive or negative.

MR BEASLEY: All right. All right.

45


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: What we then did is if you – and you had met case

definition of an – of – of an influenza-like illness, you would be asked to remain in

your cabin until we reached Sydney.

MR BEASLEY: Can I ask - - - 5

DR VON WATZDORF: So they were kept - - -

MR BEASLEY: - - - whether that was - - -

10

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - in isolation - - -

MR BEASLEY: Sorry. You go ahead. You go ahead.

COMMISSIONER: Please finish, Doctor. 15

DR VON WATZDORF: So anybody – I’m just going to repeat that, is that anybody

that had a negative influenza test but presented with influenza-like illness would be

kept in isolation in their cabin until we had reached Sydney. Now, the way that we

thought about this is number one – or my, not we, my thinking about this was each of 20

these guests and crew, for that matter, were tested for influenza. They had a negative

influenza test and they got a subsequent COVID – a COVID – a swab to analyse for

COVID-19. That swab, we collected – I think we had three or four sea days back, I

can’t remember exactly, back to Sydney, and we would keep in isolation, collect the

swab, and keep the swab in the fridge because we were expecting them to be 25

analysed by New South Wales Public Health. The swabs – apparently, I was told,

decrease in sensitivity dramatically if you have them for more than 72 hours, so we

endeavoured to take all of them at 46 – at 48 hours and less to give time for

processing. So all these guests that had ..... symptoms and negative influenza tests

were told to stay in their cabins until such time that we had a decision made by New 30

South Wales Public Health on how we were to proceed. That was done because the

previous turnaround, they had wanted them to remain in their cabins until the results

of the tests became available. I had expected a similar process, and not having had

confirmation at that time, obviously we were seeing patients continuously through

the days and confirmation from New South Wales Public Health only came late the 35

afternoon on the 18th prior to our arrival on the 19th. You know, I kind of had

prepared passengers that there might – that they were likely – will likely be an

assessment and that there, you know, might be another delay, like the previous time,

for disembarkation due to needing to be assessed and swabs needing to be processed.

I said to them, however, that that is not – I cannot say how the day will turn out. 40

This is a conversation I had with the – you know, with my patients, but that – that we

will analyse the swabs and see whether there’s any suggestion of – of – of other

illnesses at play.

COMMISSIONER: Doctor, the patients you’re talking about there, is that a group 45

where they had already all tested negative for influenza?


MR BEASLEY SC


COMMISSIONER: And do I understand that there had been 15 of those?

DR VON WATZDORF: I – I seem to recollect that – I will come back to that 5

number. I’m not 100 per cent sure of the number right now. My apologies.

COMMISSIONER: When New South Wales Health asked you to send the 15

samples to their lab for COVID testing, should I understand that as meaning those

are the sample you had collected from the people you were isolating in their cabins 10

who had tested negative for influenza?

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. And then they requested us to follow up – there was

one or two swabs that wasn’t from that group. They had some overseas nationals,

especially – specifically people from the US, and I asked the question whether we 15

should ..... and they said, well, we need to clinically prioritise them and see if they

are still unwell – the ones that are still – if they are still, you know, symptomatic.

We phoned each of the US nationals that we knew on board and asked them how the

symptoms are, and those that were still symptomatic, and I think in the end we

swabbed a lady from – from – that was a US – maybe one or two that were US 20

nationals that had symptoms.

COMMISSIONER: Was it - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: That was additional – additional to the influenza-like 25

illness grouping.

COMMISSIONER: Was it your understanding at that time that a positive test for

influenza excluded COVID-19?

30

DR VON WATZDORF: I would think so. I mean, on a clinical basis, you – one

can’t exclude the other, but surely – but certainly the risk of having both at the same

time, at least in my mind, was ..... than, you know, having both at the same time.

MR BEASLEY: Sorry. You cut off then as to – you were going to explain 35

something about the risk of having both influenza and COVID-19 at the same time. I

think you acknowledge that clinically a person can be suffering from both influenza

and COVID-19 at the same time. Correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: Clinically, that is a possibility, yes. 40

MR BEASLEY: Right.

DR VON WATZDORF: That is, of course - - -

45

MR BEASLEY: And why - - -


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - always a possibility.

MR BEASLEY: Why would it be less likely that someone that’s tested positive for

influenza might have – also have COVID-19 than someone that’s tested negative for

influenza but has an influenza-like illness in relation to whether or not they’ve got 5

COVID-19?

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. I didn’t understand the question. Could you repeat

that?

10

MR BEASLEY: Yes, I will. Is the proposition or the opinion you want to express

to the Commissioner, take two patients – two passengers that have both got

influenza-like illness that’s consistent with the symptoms of both influenza and

COVID-19. One tests negative for flu, and one tests positive for flu. Does that alter

the likelihood, in your view, that either of them has COVID-19? 15

DR VON WATZDORF: The video feed broke up in the first part of the question,

but I think between the two attempts I got the gist of it.

MR BEASLEY: Right. Thank you. I’m very glad. 20

DR VON WATZDORF: You’re wanting to know whether to my mind – sorry. I

don’t – unfortunately the video feed, I do not control. The question is whether – let

me just – how do I word this correctly? The question is whether one would suspect

somebody that has influenza of having COVID-19 as well and vice versa. 25

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

30

DR VON WATZDORF: As a physician, you treat the diagnosis that you have in

front of you. You treat the patient, not – you know, not the disease. You treat the

patient. Now, if a patient has a diagnosis of influenza-like illness and they improve

with treatment and you have followed them up and they are afebrile and they are

feeling well and improved, that is how you would assess whether this patient has 35

indeed the diagnosis that you thought they had. If they are ..... for an alternate

diagnosis.


40

DR VON WATZDORF: In an ideal world, one would be able to test for all

infections and all diseases all at the same time and have a snap – an immediate

snapshot in time of what, you know, is wrong with any person at any given point.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. 45

DR VON WATZDORF: Given the limited - - -


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Is what you’re trying to tell the Commissioner this, that if someone

- - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Of any disease – I’m talking – I’m talking about – my

apologies. Can I just finish? 5

COMMISSIONER: Yes, please.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. You finish.

10

DR VON WATZDORF: This doesn’t happen with cancer patients.

MR BEASLEY: You finish.

DR VON WATZDORF: This doesn’t happen in cancer patients. This doesn’t 15

happen in cardiac disease. But what we do is you have the most likely diagnosis.

You treat that diagnosis, and you see whether the patient shows improvement or not.

And if they do not improve, then you continue to search for other reasons and other

possibilities.

20

COMMISSIONER: This is the trial of treatment approach, Doctor.

DR VON WATZDORF: If you don’t have a confirmed diagnosis, that’s correct.

That is the approach you would follow.

25

COMMISSIONER: I - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: You don’t have the luxury of having unlimited testing and

unlimited – you know, just having – and it depends from the disease process – the

disease process, of course. 30

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: No. I do appreciate all of that.

35

MR BEASLEY: Is what you’re saying, you would have a greater concern that a

patient with influenza-like illness had – that had tested negative for flu, you would

have a greater concern that they might be at risk of having COVID-19 than someone

that had tested positive to flu?

40

DR VON WATZDORF: You would have a greater concern that they have a

different disease process, whether that be COVID-19 or something else.


45

MR BEASLEY: Yes. All right. Going back to the call, whether it was a radio call

– was it a radio call or a – whether it was a radio call or a phone call with VTS, with


MR BEASLEY SC

the captain and the staff captain, and you were talking – telling them that you had

passengers in isolation. Can I just ask, is it your decision as to whether a passenger

goes into isolation?

DR VON WATZDORF: We follow protocols and procedures with that, and there is 5

a set protocol for how we put people into isolation, and that’s what we follow.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. I understand that.

DR VON WATZDORF: It is the treating physician - - - 10

MR BEASLEY: Who implements the protocol?

DR VON WATZDORF: It is - - -

15

MR BEASLEY: Is that you as the doctor?

DR VON WATZDORF: It is the – it’s the treating physician.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. All right. And was this protocol new as a result of the 20

COVID-19 outbreak that had happened from December or January onwards, or has

this been a protocol that always applies if there’s an influenza outbreak on a ship?

DR VON WATZDORF: There’s a – there has been protocols for influenza

outbreaks for as long as I’ve worked with Princess. 25

MR BEASLEY: I see. And that involves passengers going into isolation? Did you

say yes to - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. The video feed has stopped completely. 30

MR BEASLEY: Sorry. Did you – and my follow up question was, and that

involves passengers going into isolation. Did you answer yes to that?

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. Patients with an influenza-like illness. 35

MR BEASLEY: All right. To this 2 am – I’m still on this 2 am phone call on the

19th of March. Do you recall telling the VTS manager that one of the – was it – just

pausing there, did you order two ambulances or three?

40

DR VON WATZDORF: Two ambulances.

MR BEASLEY: Right. Did a patient - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Two patients 45

MR BEASLEY: Did one of the passengers have an upper ear infection?


MR BEASLEY SC


MR BEASLEY: So there’d be no reason for you to tell someone at VTS that

someone had an upper ear infection, or had an ear infection?

5

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. The – it’s following up – sorry. The video feed is

breaking up.

MR BEASLEY: Right.

10

DR VON WATZDORF: If they have an upper ear infection? That’s not even a

term we would use in medical.

MR BEASLEY: Well, an ear infection.

15

DR VON WATZDORF: No. No. I wouldn’t call an ambulance for an ear

infection.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Do you recall telling them, though, that Mr Londero

may have had a slight heart attack? 20



25

DR VON WATZDORF: Because I asked – apologies, if I may.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Go on.

DR VON WATZDORF: I interrupted you. 30

MR BEASLEY: No. That’s all right.

DR VON WATZDORF: Because I had asked the person on the other end of the line

whether they had any medical knowledge, I seem to recall, and they said no, and it’s 35

quite difficult to explain to someone what a troponin leak is.

MR BEASLEY: I have no doubt that’s true.

DR VON WATZDORF: If they have - - - 40

MR BEASLEY: I entirely accept that. Did you also tell the person that Mrs Bacon

or at least one of the passengers had a trapped nerve? Do you remember telling them

that?

45

DR VON WATZDORF: It might be the term that I used to explain a femoral nerve

compression.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Can I – I want to give you the opportunity of - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Because of laymen’s terms.

MR BEASLEY: All right. I want to give you the opportunity of explaining this. 5

Assume that you told this person that Mr Londero had had a small heart attack and

Mrs Bacon or the other passenger had a trapped nerve, and then you mentioned that

they also had upper respiratory tract infections. Was there any reason for

emphasising the first two conditions first rather than mentioning, first of all, the

upper respiratory tract infections? 10

DR VON WATZDORF: Well, the reason would be that I wouldn’t ask for an

emergency – it was in relation to requesting two emergency ambulances. They

wanted to know whether these were bogus calls requesting two emergency

ambulances at 3 o’clock in the morning. 15

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: The reason I requested emergency ambulances was not

because they had the respiratory tract infection. 20

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: It was because of a nerve condition and because of his

heart condition. Those are what we could consider emergency – emergency referral, 25

but the upper respiratory tract infections at that point did not require emergency

assistance.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Beasley, it might be convenient if we took a 10-minute - - -

30

MR BEASLEY: Yes. We’re going to have a break now, Doctor.

COMMISSIONER: For 10 minutes.

MR BEASLEY: We’re going to have a break for 10 minutes. Do you understand? 35


MR BEASLEY: All right. Thank you. We’ll come back at 10 past 11,

Commissioner? 40



45

ADJOURNED [11.02 am]


MR BEASLEY SC

RESUMED [11.22 am]

MR BEASLEY: We’re on. Can you hear me - - -

5

COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Doctor. Sorry about the delay. Let’s hope it’s

better technically now. Mr Beasley.

MR BEASLEY: You can hear me, Doctor?

10

DR VON WATZDORF: I can, yes. Thank you, Mr Beasley.

MR BEASLEY: I’m having trouble hearing you now. Can you just say - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: I’m back. 15

MR BEASLEY: Okay. Thank you for that. I just want to ask you just before we

proceed on with what happened on the morning the ship docked in Sydney on the

19th of March. With Mr Londero and Mrs Bacon, they obviously knew that they’d

been tested for influenza, correct? 20


MR BEASLEY: And they would have known that they’d tested negative for flu.

25


MR BEASLEY: And they would have been told that they were being swabbed or

COVID-19.

30


MR BEASLEY: And did you have any discussions with them or did they ask you

any questions about whether they may have COVID-19 disease?

35

DR VON WATZDORF: There would be the usual question, you know. You – we

just don’t swab someone.

MR BEASLEY: No. Okay.

40

DR VON WATZDORF: We have a conversation so it would be a conversation. I

could give you an example.

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

45

DR VON WATZDORF: It would be – so we’ve done the influenza swab – and this

is, as I say, just an example – “We’ve done your influenza swab. It has come back


MR BEASLEY SC

negative. We are going to do another swab that we will keep for testing ashore once

we reach Australia and this would be a swab that would include testing for COVID-

19”. Inevitably, the patient would then ask us, “Well, do you think I have it?”. And

I would say – well – but that depends on the treating physician of course, right. I

didn’t see every patient. But for my patients I would say, “Look, it always needs to 5

be taken into consideration and we would take – you know, we would always err on

the side of caution in this case, because you do have a fever. You do have an ILI or

influenza-like illness which meets the case definition of potentially having it.”

MR BEASLEY: Do you have any independent recollection of having a 10

conversation along those lines with either Mr Londero or Mrs Bacon about COVID-

19?

DR VON WATZDORF: I can – I seem to be able to recall having that conversation

with both of them. 15


DR VON WATZDORF: I wouldn’t just – because those swabs – we wouldn’t just

swab someone and not have that conversation. It’s just ..... can I categorically say 20

that I 100 per cent and have it recorded for you, no. But this is just the way I would

approach my patients and the way I approached each of them.

MR BEASLEY: I understand that. Thank you. Apart from the conversation you

had or the information you passed on to Ms Tokovic to organise for the ambulances 25

for - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry – sorry, the IT officer is just here asking me – if you

could just hold that question for – I’m so sorry to interrupt you.

30

MR BEASLEY: Sorry, who was interrupting you then?

DR VON WATZDORF: The IT officer. He apparently received notification that

they want me on the camera.

35

MR BEASLEY: Okay. I asking you about Ms Tokovic again and whether you

called her or sent her information concerning organising an ambulance for Mr

Londero and Mrs Bacon. I just want to ask you this: did you have – do you know

who Paul Mifsud is?

40

DR VON WATZDORF: The name is familiar. He’s someone that works for

Carnival Australia.

MR BEASLEY: Do you recall having a conversation with him at some time on the

morning of the 19th or the evening of the 18th of March? 45

DR VON WATZDORF: Not that I can recall, no.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: All right. Did you – do you have any recollection of having a

conversation with anyone from Carnival or Princess Cruises other than Ms Tokovic

about the medical condition of Mr Londero or Mrs Bacon? I’m taking about people

off the ship.

5

DR VON WATZDORF: We would have sent medical disembark emails that would

have – did I have a verbal conversation with anyone?

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

10

DR VON WATZDORF: Not that I can recall at this point.

MR BEASLEY: When you - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: But they would have been notified by email of the 15

disembarkations that are pending.

MR BEASLEY: When you say disembarkation emails, what are specifically

referring to?

20

DR VON WATZDORF: There’s a group email that gets sent for all medical

disembarkations that – that goes to a few people, that specifies the name of the

person, what’s wrong with them – well, it doesn’t actually in the email body itself

specify what’s wrong with them but in alerting that this person needs to be medically

disembarked in a port. 25

MR BEASLEY: Right. And was that – would that email have gone to Mr Mifsud,

or you don’t know?

DR VON WATZDORF: Hold on. I’m going to try something on the phone. Just 30

give me a second. I’m going to actually try and disconnect it from the – from the

internet – from the wi-fi and see whether the 4G signal is strong enough. How does

that sound?

MR BEASLEY: I can hear you. 35

DR VON WATZDORF: We’ll try it like that because sometimes the wi-fi and 4G

..... go well together but ..... might not pick up. Let’s try again.

MR BEASLEY: Did you - - - 40

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry?

MR BEASLEY: Did you hear my question?

45



MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: My question was in terms of the emails about passengers that are

ill being disembarked from the ship, was that an email that would have gone to Mr

Mifsud or do you not know that?

DR VON WATZDORF: I don’t know that it – there’s a group email. I don’t think 5

so but - - -


DR VON WATZDORF: - - - I don’t ..... 10

MR BEASLEY: You yourself had no phone conversation or communication with

Mr Mifsud about either Mr Londero or Mrs Bacon; is that right?

DR VON WATZDORF: Didn’t. 15

MR BEASLEY: Sorry, I didn’t catch that. Did you say you didn’t?

DR VON WATZDORF: No, I did not.

20

MR BEASLEY: All right. Do you know whether anyone else on the ship did?

DR VON WATZDORF: I don’t know.

MR BEASLEY: All right. When the ship docked in Sydney on the 19th of March, 25

you were aware that the passengers were all going to disembark, correct?


MR BEASLEY: So – and roughly about 2700 people. Correct? 30


MR BEASLEY: And do you have a recollection of what information had been

given to them concerning COVID-19 prior to their departure? 35

DR VON WATZDORF: I don’t have the exact information. The cabin drop made –

we call it a cabin drop. It is a handout of information to all cabins of requirements by

Australian Border Force and New South Wales Public Health, and these are the

official documents - - - 40

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - as far as I know - - -

45

MR BEASLEY: Are you - - -


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - meant to be from - - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Are you referring to a document from the Australian

Department of Health for passengers that was headed, “Novel coronavirus COVID-

19”? Does that ring a bell? 5

DR VON WATZDORF: I can’t remember the heading. So – so just as a –

something, well, you wouldn’t know ..... on a ship. I would not be directly involved

in that. I know about the cabin - - -

10

MR BEASLEY: I’m sure you were – I’m sure you weren’t handing this out to

passengers, Doctor, but do you recall reading a document from the Australian

Government giving advice - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. One I had - - - 15

MR BEASLEY: - - - to travellers about what to do - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. I had - - -

20

MR BEASLEY: - - - when they got off the ship?

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. One I had received myself.

MR BEASLEY: All right. You received the same document, did you? 25


MR BEASLEY: All right. And do you recall - - -

30

DR VON WATZDORF: If it’s that document – I don’t – I don’t have it in front of

me - - -

MR BEASLEY: No. I know.

35

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - so I cannot tell you that it’s – what it’s named.

MR BEASLEY: I appreciate the difficulty. So I’m certainly not going to expect

you to remember everything that was in it. But you recall generally that there was a

document provided to yourself and to passengers and crew, no doubt, from the 40

Australian Government, from health, in relation to COVID-19 as a general matter.

You remember getting that document.


45



MR BEASLEY SC


MR BEASLEY: - - - do you remember it gave advice to all travellers that they

needed to self-isolate for 14 days?

5


MR BEASLEY: And it gave advice about what has been called social distancing,

keeping - - -

10

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. And what to do. And I think there’s even a

telephone number in there to phone if you experience - - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

15

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - illness, so - - -

MR BEASLEY: You are right.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - I want to recall that there was a telephone number. I 20

was still thinking, I think, by myself, I wonder who has the luxury of manning that

phone line.

MR BEASLEY: Who knows? I’m sure it’s more than one person. At least, I hope

so. But as at – you generally have a recollection. The advice was, you must go 25

home and self-isolate for 14 days. Correct?


MR BEASLEY: And - - - 30

DR VON WATZDORF: I think .....

MR BEASLEY: - - - wash your hands frequently, don’t cough on people, and stay

at least 1.5 metres away from people? 35

DR VON WATZDORF: Again, these are specifics that I’m assuming you are

reading for the document.

MR BEASLEY: I am. 40

DR VON WATZDORF: I can’t confirm - - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

45

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - that they’re in there or not.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Just make the – just make the assumption that that’s in the

document.

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. But you would appreciate that this is also general

information that I’ve been telling people for quite a while now, so I don’t actually 5

know if it’s in the document or in my head. But yes - - -

MR BEASLEY: All right. And - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - I would assume that it would be in the document. 10

MR BEASLEY: All right. I’m telling you I’m looking at a document that I was

told has been given to all passengers on the ship which is from the Australian

Government Department of Health. It’s got a heading, “Novel Coronavirus COVID-

19” and it has information on the matters we’ve discussed, that is, once you arrive 15

back in Australia, you’ve now got to isolate for 14 days.


MR BEASLEY: And do the social distancing and handwashing things we 20

mentioned.

DR VON WATZDORF: Mmm.

MR BEASLEY: Now – and I assume they are matters that, as a medical 25

practitioner, you’d agree with in circumstances where there’s this novel illness

spreading throughout communities that people coming in from – into Australia from

a boat or from overseas should take a precautionary 14 days self-isolation and they

should practice social distancing. They sound like sensible - - -

30


MR BEASLEY: - - - measures. You agree? You said yes, did you?


MR BEASLEY: Yes.


40

MR BEASLEY: In relation to the 2700 passengers on board, there was still a

significant number, more than 100, that at the time had influenza-like illness.

Correct?


MR BEASLEY: And none of those - - -


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: No, no, no, no. No. Sorry. No, no. I’m wrong. Sorry.


DR VON WATZDORF: It is not more than 100 that had influenza-like illness. 5

There was more than 100 that had respiratory illness.

MR BEASLEY: All right. The - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: The subset of that - - - 10

MR BEASLEY: Let - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - having influenza-like illness - - -

15

MR BEASLEY: Let’s not get hung up on the numbers just yet, but there were more

than 100 with an acute respiratory infection. Is that correct? Or symptoms

consistent with a - - -


MR BEASLEY: - - - acute respiratory infection. Correct?


25

MR BEASLEY: And a number of those also had symptoms consistent with an

influenza-like illness. Correct? Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. I can’t hear you.

30

MR BEASLEY: A number of those people also had symptoms consistent with an

influenza-like illness. Correct?


35

MR BEASLEY: And some of those people had been tested for flu, and some of

them have tested positive and some of them have tested negative. Correct?


40

MR BEASLEY: And a number of people had had swabs collected for a COVID-19

test. Correct?


45

MR BEASLEY: But none of them yet had a result available, of course. Correct?


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. The last part – the last bit got lost again. You said

none of them.

MR BEASLEY: None of them – in relation to all those passengers and crew from

which swabs were collected for a COVID-19 test, there was no result for that test yet. 5

Correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. There’s a bit of a subset there. None of the ones

that we had swabbed had results available yet. But - - -

10

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - previously in New Zealand.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. I understand there was some testing done then. Five people 15

were tested for COVID at Wellington. Correct?


MR BEASLEY: I understand that. You had results for those. But I’m talking about 20

Sydney on the 19th of March. There were a number of swabs that had been taken

from patients with influenza-like illnesses in relation to which there had been no

determination as to whether they had coronavirus or not. Correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: That is correct. 25

MR BEASLEY: Did you as a doctor have a view about whether it was appropriate

for, in those circumstances, for 2700 people to disembark en masse, including the

people we’ve been discussing that had outstanding COVID-19 swabs that hadn’t yet

been diagnosed? 30

DR VON WATZDORF: I was surprised at the fact that we didn’t get a screen like

the previous time, and it is not my decision to make.

MR BEASLEY: I’m not - - - 35

DR VON WATZDORF: But it’s – it - - -

MR BEASLEY: I’m not – please don’t think I’m suggesting this is your decision.

I’m ask – I’m only asking your opinion as a medical practitioner about whether you 40

thought it was appropriate for all of the passengers in the circumstances we’ve just

discussed to disembark en masse. And by en masse, I mean in circumstances where

they clearly are not capable of social distancing.

DR VON WATZDORF: ..... answer to that and kind of – yes. Don’t know how to 45

actually answer the question.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Did you take the view that - - -

COMMISSIONER: No. Make your best attempt, please, Doctor.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. 5

COMMISSIONER: Take your time.

DR VON WATZDORF: But it – of course – so maybe I should clarify why I’m

saying that. ..... And so whatever answer I give to that question, I can’t answer that 10

without figuring the fact of where we are now.

MR BEASLEY: I don’t want you to look in - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: But - - - 15

MR BEASLEY: - - - hindsight - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - at the time - - -

20

MR BEASLEY: - - - I want you to assess it - - -

COMMISSIONER: Just let her finish now.

MR BEASLEY: As on - - - 25

COMMISSIONER: Doctor, just take your time. We understand that hindsight is

difficult to avoid. On the other hand, I have to myself try not to apply hindsight

unfairly to people. As a medical practitioner, doing the best you can to put yourself

back in the position you were early that morning on the 19th of March, can you 30

answer Mr Beasley’s question? What do you think your view then was, as a medical

practitioner, all of those people being disembarked in those circumstances.

DR VON WATZDORF: I was surprised that we were allowed to do that without

waiting for the result to come through. 35

MR BEASLEY: In other words, you were surprised that people were allowed to

disembark the ship without a result on the COVID swabs that you’d taken?

DR VON WATZDORF: And whether there was cases on board or not. 40

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Is the answer to my question yes, sorry?


45


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: That’s what surprised you. And do I take it to mean that if it had

been your decision as a doctor, you would have advised that we should await the

results of this testing before passengers disembarked the ship?

DR VON WATZDORF: If it was my decision, I would have perhaps waited, like 5

the previous time.

MR BEASLEY: And the reason why you’re expressing that view is that, I would

suggest, as a matter of obviousness, in the circumstances that Australia and the rest

of the world were facing on the 19th of March 2020 and in circumstances where 10

patients – sorry – passengers had symptoms consistent with a range of illnesses, but

also for COVID-19, who had had negative influenza tests but didn’t have COVID-19

tests back yet, there was an element of risk having so many people close together

disembarking the ship, first of all. That’s a risk. Correct?

15

DR VON WATZDORF: That would be considered a risk, yes.

MR BEASLEY: And it’s a risk to have them going out into the community and

being in close contact, for example, with other members of the community, including

people they might live with. 20

DR VON WATZDORF: I would consider that’s – yes.

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

25

DR VON WATZDORF: But it is not – it is not a risk that was ..... at the time.

Again, now we would not take that risk. The world is in a very different place a

month later than it was at the time. So one has - - -

MR BEASLEY: Well, I’m putting to you even at the 19th of March, bearing in mind 30

what was known about – and we’re going to go through it in a minute, but what was

known about coronavirus as at the 19th of March, and the warnings that have been

given by the Australian Government in that document we discussed about social

distancing and self-isolating and the fact that there was still outstanding COVID-19

swabs for people on board – passengers on board that were unwell with flu-like 35

symptoms, it was also a risk to allow those people to go out amongst the community

until those – at least until the time those test results were back.

DR VON WATZDORF: Hello? Can you hear me?

40

MR BEASLEY: Yes. I haven’t heard an answer to my question yet.

DR VON WATZDORF: I – I said – no. I said I would agree with you.

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. All right. I want to now go back to – I want to – I 45

should just ask you this. Ignoring – perhaps it’s ridiculous to say ignore Mr

Londero’s heart condition, but in relation to the influenza-like illness that he had, he


MR BEASLEY SC

had, as I understand – you may not recall this, but the log indicates he had a

temporary of 38.8, which I assume is a reasonably high temperature. Correct?


5

MR BEASLEY: Just for the – my sake, perhaps not necessarily the Commissioner’s

– when someone is described as bring febrile, what does that mean when a doctor

uses that term?

DR VON WATZDORF: Depends on where you work and what the context is. 10

Generally in the context where we work - - -

MR BEASLEY: I want the context you would use it.

DR VON WATZDORF: Over 38 degrees. 15

MR BEASLEY: Over 38.

DR VON WATZDORF: Thirty-eight and more.

20

MR BEASLEY: And Mr Londero, I think you said, had it not been for his heart

condition, you don’t consider he would have needed an ambulance. Is that right? Do

I understand that correctly?


MR BEASLEY: And I think you said he was able to go back to his room and have a

shower.


MR BEASLEY: Mrs Bacon, I think you said, she couldn’t walk properly because of

the nerve issue. Correct? Is that right? She couldn’t walk properly.

DR VON WATZDORF: Can you hear me? 35

MR BEASLEY: I didn’t hear an answer. What I said was Mrs Bacon couldn’t

walk. Is that right?

DR VON WATZDORF: That was – my answer is yes. That’s why we – that’s why 40

we admitted her into the medical centre.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. And in relation to the influenza-like illness she had from –

sorry – on the 17th and 18th of March, can you give the Commissioner an idea of how

unwell she was with that condition? 45


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: So she did get more unwell as time progressed. She was –

as all influenza-like illnesses, you would place them on ..... we only started on that, if

I recall correctly .....

MR BEASLEY: The only reason I’m asking is, is we know - - - 5

DR VON WATZDORF: And she - - -

MR BEASLEY: - - - Mrs Bacon sadly died two days after she left the ship. I’m just

wondering whether even leaving aside her nerve issue, whether she was sufficiently 10

unwell with influenza like illness that she needed an ambulance for that.

DR VON WATZDORF: So at the time when we saw her, she just – on her first

consultation – I don’t have the – again, I don’t have the patient chart in front of me.

15

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: But on her first consultation, she was having issues with

her leg, difficulty walking and had a fever and had a mild upper respiratory tract

infection. By the time she had disembarked, and she had shown, as I was saying 20

earlier, some deterioration. She was requiring low amounts – low flow oxygen at

that time and she was still febrile - - -

MR BEASLEY: Right.

25

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - at the time of disembarkation.

MR BEASLEY: Sorry. Did you say she was requiring loads of oxygen?

DR VON WATZDORF: Not loads. Low flow oxygen. 30

MR BEASLEY: Low flow oxygen. I’m sorry. All right. Thank you. All right. I

want to ask you some questions now, going back in time. I think you mentioned to

us that you first went on the Ruby Princess on the 24th of February. Is that correct?

35


MR BEASLEY: Can I ask you this. Is there – you’re the senior doctor on the Ruby

Princess. In the hierarchy of Princess Cruises or Carnival, is there like a chief

medical officer or a fleet medical officer, someone that’s right at the top of the tree, 40

so to speak?

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes, there is.

MR BEASLEY: Is that right? 45

DR VON WATZDORF: There is, yes.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: All right. And had they been providing medical staff and other

crew of Princess Cruises with information concerning developments with the spread

of COVID-19?

DR VON WATZDORF: They provided updated protocols – protocols put in place 5

for the management of – of influenza-like illness and acute respiratory illness.

MR BEASLEY: By that you mean protocols in relation to how to manage either

passengers or crew that become unwell with an influenza-like illness or an acute

respiratory infection. 10


MR BEASLEY: All right. Had they – had you been given information – and I’ll

just use the term “the company”. I think you’ll know what I mean by that term. Had 15

the company given you information concerning what had taken place on the

Diamond Princess in Yokohama through early February and February 2020?

DR VON WATZDORF: I hadn’t received any communication regarding that, no.

20

MR BEASLEY: Had - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: That doesn’t mean – that doesn’t necessarily mean it

wasn’t given. That just means I hadn’t received it, and when I took over, it was not

provided to me by the previous physician, so - - - 25

MR BEASLEY: Right. Through any means at all, had you yourself become aware

of the spread of COVID-19 on the Diamond Princess?

DR VON WATZDORF: I, of course, knew from some of what’s in social media, 30

which I don’t ..... there was an outbreak on the Diamond Princess but I did not have

any of the scientific detail behind it, if that’s the correct term to use.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Were you - - -

35


MR BEASLEY: Were you – this may not be the right word, but were you aware

that the ship was either detained or not allowed to leave Yokohama from – for many

weeks after the 2nd of February 2020? 40

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. I know that.

MR BEASLEY: Do you know the doctor on that ship?

45



MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: All right. Do you know anyone that’s a member of the crew of

that ship?

DR VON WATZDORF: I think I know the – I might have known the senior – I

might – I might have known – yes, I might know the senior nurse. 5

MR BEASLEY: Did you have any discussions with the senior nurse about the

spread of COVID-19 on the Diamond Princess?

DR VON WATZDORF: No. 10

MR BEASLEY: All right. Were you generally aware that – and please just make

the assumption that my figures are either correct or substantially correct – that, for

example, there were 10 positive COVID-19 cases on the Diamond Princess on the 4th

of February and by two weeks later on the 18th of February there were 542 positive 15

COVID cases? Had that information found its way to you?


MR BEASLEY: Had - - - 20

DR VON WATZDORF: I knew there was a significant number in the end but I

didn’t know the - - -


DR VON WATZDORF: The exact figure – I didn’t know the figures that you’ve

just - - -

MR BEASLEY: In relation to the protocol information or any other information 30

that either the chief medical officer or that the company circulated to crew, including

medical crew like yourself, had you been made aware that one issue with COVID-19

is that people may have the disease but be what is described as asymptomatic for a

time?

35

DR VON WATZDORF: I – I’m aware of that.

MR BEASLEY: By asymptomatic, I mean not showing any of symptoms that are

consistent with either an influenza-like illness or COVID-19 such as they don’t have

a cough, they don’t feel unwell, they don’t have a sore threat, they’re not febrile. Is 40

that your understanding of asymptomatic as well?

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. Yes. Did you hear that, sorry?

MR BEASLEY: Sorry, someone was just whispering in my ear so I got distracted. 45

I’m back to you now. So you were aware, I take it, by 24 February then that this

particular disease was in communities around the world, had at least been on –


MR BEASLEY SC

spread through the Diamond Princess and was also a disease where people were

capable of spreading it in circumstances where they themselves were asymptomatic.

Is that a general summary you agree with?


MR BEASLEY: All right. Thank you. The journey of the ship between the 24th of

February and the 8th of March, I think we said right at the beginning, you corrected

me that that was a round voyage from Australia to New Zealand and back again; is

that right? 10


MR BEASLEY: During the course of that voyage – the 24th of February to the 8th of

March – were passengers, to your recollection, provided with information by you or 15

by anyone else including Princes Cruises about COVID-19?


MR BEASLEY: You recall when the ship got back and docked in Sydney on the 8th 20

of March 2020 there were more than 100 people unwell at the time with, I think, flu-

like symptoms? Do you have a general recollection of that?

DR VON WATZDORF: That – of unwell people and they come – yes, they come

to the health assessment. 25

MR BEASLEY: Yes. The figures I’ve seen – and I don’t expect you to remember it

unless for some reason you do, but I’ve been told something like 158 people with

influenza-like illness when the ship docked on the 8th of March. Does that sound

about right? 30

DR VON WATZDORF: I don’t whether they were all influenza-like illness. I

would think that would be the – I – I can’t recall the number but whether that’s an

ARD or acute respiratory disease or whether it’s an ILI, I can’t remember.

35

MR BEASLEY: All right. And do you have any – there were, I think, patients –

sorry, there were, I think, passengers in isolation when the ship docked on the 8th of

March. Do you recall that?


MR BEASLEY: And do you have any recollection of approximately how many

passengers and crew were in isolation when it docked on the 8th of March?

DR VON WATZDORF: Are we talking about isolation both for positive and 45

negative influenza cases?


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: No, I can’t recall the number.


DR VON WATZDORF: I – I can’t.

MR BEASLEY: And you recall, I think, that before – when the ship docked on the

8th of March before passengers were allowed to get off, some officers and – I don’t 10

even know what qualifications they had, but officers from New South Wales Health

came onboard the ship, correct?


15

MR BEASLEY: And they did some assessments of passengers.


MR BEASLEY: And they also took some swabs and did some – I think they took 20

nine swabs in all for – to run COVID-19 tests, correct.

DR VON WATZDORF: Again – again, I’m not sure of the number but, yes, they

took swabs. They analysed them.

25

MR BEASLEY: And however many it was, all of those tests came back negative

for COVID-19.

DR VON WATZDORF: That was what was reported to me. Yes.

30

MR BEASLEY: Yes. When I used the term “they assessed passengers” New South

Wales Health assessed passengers that were onboard the ship before people were

allowed to get off, you’ll have to forgive me, I don’t even know what I mean by the

word “assessed” because I don’t have the details. What’s your recollection of what –

apart from taking the swabs for COVID-19, did you witness what the New South 35

Wales Health - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry - - -

MR BEASLEY: - - - people did? 40

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry, the – the audio feed broke up. Can you tell – can

you say it again.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Because I don’t know, I’m asking you did you witness 45

what the New South Wales Health people were doing onboard when they came

onboard on the 8th of March?


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. So there was announcements made that anybody

with any respiratory disease needs to go down to a set – go to a set location. They

were met by the officials there. They had a screening process of a – which involved

basic questions and a temperature screen. Based – and I wasn’t there the whole time

because I was between ..... and where they were doing the screening but – and – and 5

for that matter mostly in the medical centre. But from what I gathered, everybody

that was febrile had a temperature – everybody that was febrile then was – with

symptoms would be then considered for a swab.


DR VON WATZDORF: ..... at that point brought them to the medical centre for

swabbing which is what we did. But they also asked us to do ..... and I can recall a

lady that we saw in the – in those hours that was febrile – I can’t remember where

she was from but – and she had – she had a positive flu test. 15

MR BEASLEY: Right.

DR VON WATZDORF: And she was treated for flu. And I still – you know, I

asked the question, “Should we swab her for coronavirus as well?” and they said just 20

treat her for the flu.

MR BEASLEY: I wanted to ask you about that. Do you have any understanding as

to – first of all, could you give the Commissioner an idea of how many people – not

how people were swabbed for COVID, but how many people, roughly, were assessed 25

by New South Wales Health? Was it hundreds - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: ..... not exact number. I seem to recall something now,

yes, like 300 or so.

30

MR BEASLEY: I’ve seen a figure of 360. Does that sound about right? I wasn’t

sure whether it was a typo or not.

DR VON WATZDORF: That might be true. I – I seem to recall about 300.

35

MR BEASLEY: All right. Thank you. And did you have any discussions with the

New South Wales Health people as to what their decision-making process was as to

who they chose to take a swab from and who they didn’t for COVID-19?

DR VON WATZDORF: I mean, I wasn’t privy to – to their conversation, so I can’t 40

- - -

MR BEASLEY: Obviously - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - I can only tell you - - - 45

MR BEASLEY: - - - I’m only talking - - -


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - what I observed.

MR BEASLEY: - - - I’m only talking about they told you or what you found out, so

we’re sticking with your knowledge. But did you have any - - -

5

DR VON WATZDORF: So what I – sorry. I - - -

MR BEASLEY: Go ahead. Go ahead.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - interrupted you. My apologies. 10

MR BEASLEY: Did you have any understanding as to what process they were

using or what decision-making they were going through or analytical process they

were going through as to determining of the 360 people they assessed which would

be nine that they would swab for COVID and why they wouldn’t swab any others? 15

DR VON WATZDORF: I was under the impression at that stage that the case

definition was made if you had respiratory disease with a fever and did not have a

positive flu test.

20

MR BEASLEY: Right. Okay.

DR VON WATZDORF: That’s the impression that - - -

MR BEASLEY: And when you say that’s an impression, do I take it to mean no 25

one said that to you, that’s what you gathered from your observations?

DR VON WATZDORF: Well, this is the process they followed. They would

screen people for a – for a temperature, and if they were febrile, they would send

them down to the medical centre to be swabbed for – for a swab that would be 30

assessed for COVID.

MR BEASLEY: Right. Okay.

DR VON WATZDORF: And I – and, you know, with the – with the one patient we 35

had, somebody that had a positive flu test, they were treated for flu and the decision

was made not to swab them by New South Wales Public Health for COVID. So

that’s – yes, what I based that on.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Does that eliminate in terms of how you understood 40

what was being done that the only – the passengers on the 8th of March that were

swabbed for COVID had to have – (1) be febrile and (2) have had a negative flu test?

DR VON WATZDORF: My apologies. The first part of the – the first part of your

sentence I did not get. 45


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Do I understand that it was your impression that the decisions that

were being made as to who to swab for COVID-19 centred upon the passenger first

of all – or the crew member, first of all, they had to be febrile as a first - - -


MR BEASLEY: - - - criteria, and as a second criteria, they had to have had a

negative flu test?

DR VON WATZDORF: As well as having respiratory symptoms. 10

MR BEASLEY: As well as having symptoms consistent with - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: So - - -

15

MR BEASLEY: - - - acute respiratory infection.

DR VON WATZDORF: So – so a little bit the other way around. Somebody with

acute respiratory illness - - -

20

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - that is febrile - - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes. 25

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - and then if tested for – for flu would be a negative flu

test.

MR BEASLEY: Okay. All right. And if someone, whoever it was, crew or 30

passenger, ticked those boxes, so to speak, they were the ones that you understood

were being swabbed for COVID?


35

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. All right. I now – I just want to move to the journey

of the ship from Sydney on the 8th of March through to New Zealand, around New

Zealand and then coming back to Australia. As I understand it, five people were

tested for COVID in Wellington on the 14th of March. Is that correct?

40

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. ..... Sorry. The - - -

MR BEASLEY: Sorry. Can you hear me again?

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. I didn’t get a – got a very broken - - - 45

MR BEASLEY: All right. What I - - -


MR BEASLEY SC


MR BEASLEY: - - - was asking you is, my understanding is that when the ship was

docked at Wellington on the 14th of March, five people had swabs taken for COVID

and they were tested in Wellington. Is that right? 5

DR VON WATZDORF: That is correct. We had sent our logs or log of patients

that were affected on – on – on their maritime declaration of help. There was – one

person had symptoms. Not sure whether she was febrile or not. I think – I think she

was, and had a negative flu test, and that prompted the public health officials in 10

Napier to ask whether we could swab her for COVID-19, her only. I then had a

email conversation ..... that did that and we decided to swab everybody that was

febrile or had newly diagnosed – I – I – and I’m not sure, 24 or 48 hours onset to

swab them all. In – in respect of – of the influenza ..... for COVID-19.

15

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Is it – I actually haven’t been given these details yet, but am I

right that, for example, when the ship was docked at Wellington, and I think the next

day the ship was in Napier, passengers were allowed to get off the ship, walk around

and then come back. Is that correct?

20

DR VON WATZDORF: That is correct. We - - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes?

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - got the results of those initial swabs – those five 25

swabs that we sent. We got them at around midnight.

MR BEASLEY: Right.

DR VON WATZDORF: Or maybe a little bit earlier that - - - 30

MR BEASLEY: Right.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - same evening - - -

35

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - and based on that, they were all negative, and based

on that, they gave us clearance.

40

MR BEASLEY: Right. Okay. And so passengers on the ship were able to do

whatever sightseeing they wanted to do at Wellington and the next day, they were

able to do a similar thing at Napier and I think it’s Hawke’s Bay. Is that right?

DR VON WATZDORF: That’s correct. 45

MR BEASLEY: All right?


MR BEASLEY SC


MR BEASLEY: Would I be – and I’m only asking this in a general sense, but

would it be a fair generalisation that more people started to become unwell with

acute respiratory infection or influenza-like illness from about the 14th and 15th of 5

March onboard?

DR VON WATZDORF: I – I do recall more people getting ill later in the cruise,

definitely. I can’t remember the day, really.

10

MR BEASLEY: All right. Let me help you with this - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: But I do – I do recall an escalation later in the cruise.

MR BEASLEY: Right. All right. Thank you. Let me help you with this. Again, 15

this morning, I was given an email which is from you to Ms Ressler, Kelly-Anne

Ressler, which you sent on Sunday the 15th of March just before 7 pm, where you’ve

said:

Hi, Kelly. We seem to be in the early phases of an influenza A outbreak 20

onboard.

Do you - - -


MR BEASLEY: - - - remember sending that email?

DR VON WATZDORF: I heard the first part about the email I sent Kelly-Anne,

and – but not what the detail said. 30

MR BEASLEY: One of the first things you said to Kelly-Anne was:

We seem to be in the early stages of an influenza A outbreak onboard.

35

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes, meaning that we’ve had testing positive of influenza

A onboard.

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

40

DR VON WATZDORF: Not - - -


DR VON WATZDORF: Not really an outbreak, but yes. 45

MR BEASLEY: You then said to her:


MR BEASLEY SC

Luckily, they all seem to be presenting within 24-36 hours.

Can you explain to the Commissioner why you used the word luckily that people

were presenting within 24 to 36 hours? Is that about controlling an outbreak?

5

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. Yes. Well, I mean, the word outbreak was perhaps –

in the – it’s the – wait. Let me rephrase that.

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

10

DR VON WATZDORF: The word outbreak was used in a sense of, it looks like we

had an outbreak at the time. Outbreak is defined by clear statistical numbers. But

we were seeing elevated numbers. We had – had a few influenza A-positive tests

come back, and the 24 to 36 hour cut-off means that we – we know that the longer

somebody walks around with symptoms on board, the more risk of – of cross-15

infection there of course is, so it is always beneficial if people present earlier in their

symptom onset.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. This email also says that “we” – that is, I assume, you or

your staff, did a questionnaire requesting self-reporting of all individuals that are ill a 20

couple of days ago.


MR BEASLEY: Can you explain to the Commissioner what that was about? 25

DR VON WATZDORF: We had sent out a – call it a modified version of the

traveller questionnaire requesting people to self-report if they had any respiratory

illness or fever.

30

MR BEASLEY: Right. Sorry. Did that go – am I right, did that go to every single

passenger and crew on board, or was only the ones that - - -


35

MR BEASLEY: It went to everyone.

DR VON WATZDORF: It did go to everyone.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And - - - 40


MR BEASLEY: And was the response rate high, near 100 per cent, or less than

that? 45


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: I think it was – it was close to 100 per cent. I – it was

combined with another question about travel history, and I – the – let me put it this

way, the guest services team were responsible for collating that data and putting it

into a spreadsheet. When we got the – the spreadsheet ..... had symptoms.

5

MR BEASLEY: I now want to – the cruise was cut short, my understanding is. Do

you recall what you were told the reasons were for that?

DR VON WATZDORF: I was only aware that we were denied into Tauranga, and I

– not – I don’t even know whether denied entry was the right word. I just – no, I 10

don’t actually know.

MR BEASLEY: But - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: But I just know that we weren’t going to Tauranga and 15

Auckland any more, and the biggest reason that frustrated me is, you know, because

we had deliveries waiting in Auckland.

MR BEASLEY: I see.

20

DR VON WATZDORF: That’s what I recall of it.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And you were told you were heading back to Australia

instead.

25

DR VON WATZDORF: That is correct. I at the time, maybe by assumption,

assumed that since we – you know, since all cruise ships entering into Australia had

been – we knew that it was imminent that no further cruising was going to happen.

Princess, I think, had by then announced its stay of – you know, stopping operations

for a period, and I think whether that is assumption or whether that’s the reason that I 30

- - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - created in my head for it, that is the reason that I 35

presumed it to be because of.

MR BEASLEY: Do you have any recollection of passengers being given some

written material explaining why the ship was shortening the cruise and going back to

Australia? 40

DR VON WATZDORF: I can’t recall seeing that or knowing about that.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Was – did you hear any announcements?

45

DR VON WATZDORF: There was an announcement made, but I can’t recall what

it said.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: All right. I want to ask you – and again, I will – you will have to

bear with me, because these documents you won’t necessarily have in front of you,

but you recall that prior to the ship arriving back in Australia, and this is now on the

17th of March in the afternoon, South Eastern Sydney New South Wales Health – I’ll

call it that – asked you to provide it with information concerning health history and 5

travel history of passengers and crew. You remember that generally?


MR BEASLEY: and you were asked to provide the full ARD log. Correct? 10


MR BEASLEY: And that’s the acute respiratory diseases log. Is that right?

15


MR BEASLEY: That’s what we talked about before. Can you tell me when that –

when is that prepared? Was that – is that an ongoing process? In other words, it’s a

– is that a log that you start at the beginning of a cruise and just add to, or is it 20

something that you do at a particular time?

DR VON WATZDORF: It is an ongoing process. It is updated as the cruise goes

on. But, of course, it – I mean, it depends on – how do I say this. You can’t spend

time preparing a log if you need to spend time seeing patients. 25

MR BEASLEY: No. I understand that. But in any event, it’s a - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: So it’s an ongoing process.

30

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: It would be ideal if we collect real-time live at every point.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. 35

DR VON WATZDORF: But in practicality, in practical terms, it just isn’t.

MR BEASLEY: And the ARD log is something where a passenger’s name is

recorded, their sex, their age, their cabin number, where they come from, and the 40

date when they - - -


MR BEASLEY: Date when they report to the medical staff, the date they first have 45

symptoms, what their temperature is, whether it’s acute respiratory illness or


MR BEASLEY SC

influenza-like illness, whether it’s pneumonia, and results of any influenza test, and

in this – for this particular log, results of any COVID-19 test.


5

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: And I handled that because of – you know - - -

MR BEASLEY: And then a general summary, for example, if they become well 10

again, where it would say resolved.


MR BEASLEY: Yes. 15

DR VON WATZDORF: It’s more a comment section.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Is – where it says resolved, do I – would we take that to

mean that the patient has become well again and is no longer suffering from 20

symptoms of ARI or ILI?

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes, as they would report to us.

MR BEASLEY: And do I take it that where it says improved, it means their 25

symptoms are not as severe as when they first presented or not as severe as - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: It’s breaking up again.

MR BEASLEY: - - - the point – sorry. Did you hear my question? 30


MR BEASLEY: All right. When it – I will just ask you rather than putting words in

your mouth. What does improved mean? 35

DR VON WATZDORF: It just means that they’ve got – they are reporting general

improvement of symptoms.

MR BEASLEY: Right. All right. 40

DR VON WATZDORF: So no worsening. So on – so the question would be asked,

do you have ongoing fever, do you have a worsening cough, does it get productive,

do you have any, you know, body aches and weakness, do you feel unwell, and so

for us to say improved would mean the patient reported they’re actually feeling much 45

better, that they have either minor or minimal symptoms left.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Can I ask this. In relation to passengers that had been reported

unwell and had been assessed as having either acute respiratory illness or influenza-

like illness and had been placed in isolation in their cabins, how often were they –

would medical staff consult with them again to find out whether they were improving

or deteriorating or whatever? What was the - - - 5

DR VON WATZDORF: They would be seen twice a day.

MR BEASLEY: Twice a day.

10

DR VON WATZDORF: By medical staff. Not just telephonically, but being –

being assessed.

MR BEASLEY: And did that involve them coming to the medical centre or you and

other medical staff going to their cabin? 15

DR VON WATZDORF: The answer is that it depends.

MR BEASLEY: What does it depend on?

20

DR VON WATZDORF: It depends, firstly, on the severity of illness. Usually we

would phone and say how are you feeling today, are you feeling any better. If they

can, and we have only one staff member available, we would get them down to the

medical centre, of course wearing PPE. They would receive a mask on their first

consultation, and if they don’t have it any more or it needs to be replaced, it will be 25

replaced on subsequent consultations. They were always reminded to wear the mask,

and if they were to come down to the medical centre, advised to do so - - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

30

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - for assessment therefore, otherwise – or if they are

worse, we would send the paramedic to fetch them with a wheelchair, bring them

down to the medical centre to be assessed. If they felt unwell or if – if we could, we

would send a staff member to do temperatures in the cabin.

35

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. You’ve anticipated - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: And assess them in the cabin.

MR BEASLEY: All right. You anticipated one of my questions. When people on 40

this voyage – the voyage that arrived back in Sydney on the 19th of March, when

they became – when they presented, I’m sorry, to you or other medical staff with an

acute respiratory illness or an influenza-like illness, they were provided with masks

immediately, were they?

45


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: So every person that was seen in the medical centre with a

respiratory illness would have been provided a mask upon presentation. That is

standard procedure for us.

MR BEASLEY: Was that standard procedure before this year, I will call it? Has 5

that always been standard procedure, in your experience, on these cruises, or is it - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: I have always done it that way in medical centres that I’ve

worked in.

10

MR BEASLEY: I didn’t quite - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: I cannot - - -

MR BEASLEY: I didn’t quite catch that. 15

DR VON WATZDORF: I – sorry. I said I have always .....

MR BEASLEY: You’ve – I think you’re saying you’ve always done it that way.

20

DR VON WATZDORF: Whether it’s written - - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - that every patient should have a mask, I can’t recall 25

that. I’m – I don’t know. I can’t tell you that offhand. But where I’ve worked in

medical centres where I’ve been, that was always the expectation of the staff. If

anybody comes in ..... illness, that they should get a mask.

MR BEASLEY: And what about you and the other medical staff? Were you 30

wearing PPE?

DR VON WATZDORF: So there’s a bit of a difference. If we have elevated

situations, we would wear masks and PPE all the time. If we were in normal

conditions and we just see one or two or three patients, we wouldn’t do that 35

routinely. You wouldn’t – you would wear a surgical mask, but you wouldn’t wear

an N95 or, you know, a different type of mask with increased - - -

MR BEASLEY: What about in the circumstances of the last few days of this

particular cruise? 40

DR VON WATZDORF: The expectation was there that the medical staff would

wear PPE when they were consulting patients.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. All right. Going back to the questions you were asked by 45

New South Wales Health by email on the 17th of March 2020, you were also – do


MR BEASLEY SC

you recall being asked for a list of passengers who had been to, for example, China

and Iran in the last 14 days?

DR VON WATZDORF: I can recall that, yes. And I referred that question to the

administration officer. 5

MR BEASLEY: Sure. And also to Korea since the 5th of March?

DR VON WATZDORF: I can’t recall the countries and the exact dates but the

travel history – the question I referred to the administration officer. 10

MR BEASLEY: Yes. And the email told you that passengers and crew with

influenza-like illness should be isolated, but I take it that process – that had already

been undertaken.

15


MR BEASLEY: And the email also told you that the ship should make an

announcement that anyone with respiratory symptoms or fever should attend your

medical centre for assessment. You remember that? 20

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. We did that, too.

MR BEASLEY: But had that been something that the ship had already been telling

people to do? 25

DR VON WATZDORF: I’m trying to think whether there was an announcement

earlier on that cruise. I do seem to think that there was one. I can’t recall whether

there was an announcement earlier in the cruise as well. It certainly had been done

with the previous cruise. 30

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: But I can’t – if you’re asking me which date and which

announcements were made, I can’t tell you. I can’t recall that now. We – we did 35

follow up on, you know – I’m trying to think whether those announcements – when

they were made. I can’t recall.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And do you recall being given some information by

New South Wales Health in the email that if a New South Wales public health team 40

has to do an onboard assessment then you need to do these – you need to do various

things?


45

MR BEASLEY: But that didn’t happen. It happened previously but it didn’t

happen on this occasion.


MR BEASLEY SC


MR BEASLEY: And can I just ask in relation to – sorry, I’ll help you before I ask

this question. You then responded - - -

5

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry, the line is broken again.

MR BEASLEY: Can you hear me again now?

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes, I can. 10

MR BEASLEY: All right. You responded to New South Wales Health with your

own email the following morning at about 9.39 am on 18 March with answers to

various questions. The email is in your name. I take it that you completed the

answers yourself. 15

DR VON WATZDORF: I did.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. And in relation to – one of the things you provided, I assume,

as an attachment to that email was the log we’ve been talking about – the ARD log. 20


MR BEASLEY: Can I ask this: in relation to that log, is – do other medical staff

make any additions or entries to this log or is that only the two doctors? 25

DR VON WATZDORF: The – sorry, I interrupted you. You were still saying?

MR BEASLEY: No. That’s my – is it only the two doctors, or do other medical

staff get to make entries into the log? 30

DR VON WATZDORF: It’s only the two doctors.

MR BEASLEY: All right. So - - -

35

DR VON WATZDORF: And of those, mostly me.

MR BEASLEY: I didn’t hear that last bit, I’m sorry. And?

DR VON WATZDORF: I said and of those, mostly myself. 40

MR BEASLEY: I see. Okay.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Beasley, I wonder if I could just ask a couple of questions

about the doctor’s understanding of the way in which there may have been 45

communication between the ship doctor and port services, that is, the Port Authority.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Yes, I was coming to that. I don’t think we’re quite up to their

chronologic but - - -

COMMISSIONER: Can I – I just wanted to ask about a few phrases. In your

understanding, Doctor, in the evening of the 18th of March and very early on the 19th 5

of March, so far as you are concerned as a medical practitioner, would it have been

correct to say there were no passengers onboard showing COVID-19 symptoms?

Would that have been correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: There was nobody onboard ..... 10

MR BEASLEY: You dropped out then but - - -

COMMISSIONER: You’re breaking up. Please, Doctor, could you - - -

15

MR BEASLEY: You’re not - - -

COMMISSIONER: - - - perhaps speak more slowly. I want to hear this answer.

MR BEASLEY: The Commissioner is not asking you about confirmed cases. He’s 20

asking you about symptoms.

COMMISSIONER: No, please just answer my question, Doctor. Would it have

been correct to say, on the evening of the 18th of March and very early on the 19th of

March that there were no passengers showing COVID-19 symptoms? Would that 25

have been correct or not? If you can, just give me a one-word answer.


COMMISSIONER: And would it have been correct on the evening of the 18th of 30

March and very early on 19th of March to say that there were on the ship no signs of

COVID-19? Would that have been correct or not?

DR VON WATZDORF: Okay. I don’t have a one good answer for you.

35

COMMISSIONER: Well - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Because I think it’s been – I need context. So if it is in

context of, you know, is there anybody with symptoms that could be suggestive of it,

yes. Is there anybody with symptoms that is, you know, COVID-19, no. 40

COMMISSIONER: Well, the answer is you don’t know. Isn’t that right?


45

COMMISSIONER: I want to explore that, Doctor. Please be precise in your

answers. There’s a big difference between saying there are no signs, and saying that


MR BEASLEY SC

you cannot tell whether there is COVID-19 or not, isn’t there? You understand the

difference, don’t you?


5

COMMISSIONER: Now, I’ve asked you - - -


COMMISSIONER: - - - questions using two words: one is “symptoms” and the 10

other is “signs”. Are you used to the notion that in medicine they have quite precise

meanings: symptoms and signs?


15

COMMISSIONER: Would it be correct to say on the evening of the 18th of March

and very early on the morning of the 19th of March, would it be correct to say that

there was no passenger showing signs or reporting symptoms consistent with

COVID-19? Would that be correct or not? Did you hear the question, Doctor?

20

DR VON WATZDORF: I did – I did hear the question. I’m trying to determine all

the different parts of the question.

COMMISSIONER: Well, it’s not meant to be an easy question - - -

25

DR VON WATZDORF: Where - - -

COMMISSIONER: - - - but it’s very important. I want you to concentrate, please.

Perhaps I’ll ask some other questions first to give you some context. Am I correct in

understanding from your evidence today that you regarded it as important for the 30

ambulance staff on shore to be aware of the possibility that the two passengers for

whom ambulances were ordered may be suffering from COVID-19? Is that correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: It was important for me to let them know that it cannot be

excluded. 35

COMMISSIONER: Well, is there any difference between that and what I’ve asked

you, that they may be suffering from COVID-19? Is that correct or not?

DR VON WATZDORF: That is – it is correct. 40

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: They might also be suffering from other things but – but

yes. 45


MR BEASLEY SC

COMMISSIONER: Yes. In other words, it was a possibility you had actively

considered and could not exclude as a real possibility. Is that right?


5

COMMISSIONER: Yes. Prudence would dictate that you treated them and the

ambulance staff who put their life on the line – you would treat them as if they may

well have COVID-19. Is that correct?


COMMISSIONER: Does it not follow that the very reasons that led you to believe

that they may have COVID-19 means that no one could ever have said that there was

no one on board showing signs or symptoms of COVID-19? Doesn’t that follow?

You couldn’t say that. 15


COMMISSIONER: Yes. Anybody who said something like that would be, in your

opinion, very wrong to do so. Would that be right? 20

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. I didn’t – I didn’t hear the question. The line is

very broken.

COMMISSIONER: Yes. It would be very wrong conduct for a person with the 25

knowledge you had on the evening of the 18th or the morning of the 19th of March to

say that there was nobody on board showing signs or symptoms of COVID-19. That

would be very wrong, wouldn’t it?

DR VON WATZDORF: Again, that would be – yes. Yes. Depending on the 30

context.

COMMISSIONER: Now, do you recall whether you ever said anything like that to

anybody working for the Port Authority on the night of the 18th or the morning of the

19th of March? Did you ever say anything like that? 35

DR VON WATZDORF: I can’t recall saying that.

COMMISSIONER: Do you mean by that that you may have said it but you cannot

remember, or do you mean it’s not the sort of thing you think you would have said? 40

DR VON WATZDORF: It means both. I don’t remember every conversation .....

think that is something that I would have said.

COMMISSIONER: I’m sorry. I – that last part of your answer broke up. Could 45

you repeat it, please?


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Was that you don’t think it was something you would have said?

COMMISSIONER: Just repeat the last part, please.

DR VON WATZDORF: No. I don’t think that is something that I would have said. 5

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: And – but I cannot recall – I can’t recall the conversations,

but it’s not something that I think I would have said. 10

MR BEASLEY: Because it wouldn’t have been accurate.

DR VON WATZDORF: It’s just not that I – I don’t think I would have said that.

15

MR BEASLEY: Because you don’t think it would have been an accurate thing to

say.

COMMISSIONER: What Mr Beasley - - -

20


COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Thank you. 25

COMMISSIONER: What I want to know is this. Casting your mind back to all the

contact you had with onshore authorities on the night of the 18th of March, the

morning of the 19th of March, before the ship docked, can you think of anything that

you said that may have given anyone the impression that - - - 30

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. The question broke up. I did not get the last part.

COMMISSIONER: Can you think of anything you said that may have given them

the impression that there were no signs of COVID-19 and no one showing symptoms 35

of COVID-19 on board?

DR VON WATZDORF: Not that I can recall.

COMMISSIONER: A reference to the onboard doctor during those hours would be 40

a reference only to you. Is that correct?


COMMISSIONER: And you had been responsible for what’s called the MARS 45

report. Is that right?


MR BEASLEY SC


COMMISSIONER: And that includes, in summary form, a report concerning the

health status of crew and passengers. Is that correct? Is that right?

5

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. I didn’t - - -

COMMISSIONER: The MARS report, for which you were responsible, included

summary form health report on the status of crew and passengers. Is that correct?

10


COMMISSIONER: This is difficult, given the urgent occasion for this evidence,

but are you able to tell me whether the MARS report that you prepared for the

purpose of the ship seeking permission to dock and disembark, whether it was one 15

that could be correctly described as showing no signs of COVID-19? Are you able

to answer that or not?

DR VON WATZDORF: A MARS report can’t reflect .....

20

MR BEASLEY: Can’t reflect what?

DR VON WATZDORF: ..... it asks you about number of febrile cases. That is not

equal to COVID-19.

25

MR BEASLEY: No. But the report that the Commissioner’s referring to, you

understand it’s called a Maritime Arrivals Reporting System report, which is why

people call it MARS, but you understand it’s a human health report that goes to the

Australian Government.

30

DR VON WATZDORF: I was under the impression that it’s an agriculture and

biosecurity report.

MR BEASLEY: It’s from the Department of Agriculture, Water and Environment.

You’re right. And it’s headed Human Health Report. Does that refresh your 35

memory?


MR BEASLEY: And you had responsibility for filling in the report. 40

DR VON WATZDORF: So the – it’s an online form that the administration officer

does, and I provide the numbers to the administration officer.

MR BEASLEY: All right. One of the questions you’re asked in that form is, “Was 45

there any situation on board which may lead to infection or spread of disease?” And

the answer given is N for no. Why – what’s the explanation for no to that question?


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. I didn’t get the question for that. I just got the no.

MR BEASLEY: The question is, “Was there any situation on board which may lead

to infection or spread of disease?” And the answer you’ve provided or the ship has

provided is no. 5

MR McLURE: Commissioner, I’m sorry. Could I just, as it were, raise an objection

to that question? It could be unfair to the witness if she doesn’t have the document in

front of her.

10

COMMISSIONER: I couldn’t agree with you more, Mr McLure. I’m going to try

and do something about that right now.

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

15

COMMISSIONER: Your point is very well made. The urgency of the occasion has

had its own inconvenience. Doctor, could you listen carefully to what I’m about to

tell you. I’m sorry for being longwinded. We don’t – we have not had the

opportunity to do things as we would have liked to have done. Your counsel has

raised a very fair point concerning you being asked questions about a document you 20

don’t have before you. I’m going to tell you that there is available to the

Commission a human health report submitted at 1921 on the 18th of March 2020 for

the Ruby Princess. These are three-page documents in a form with which you are

familiar. Is that correct?

25


COMMISSIONER: And one of those reports submitted by the ship at that time is

one for which you would be responsible personally. Is that correct?

30


COMMISSIONER: And one forensic order the questions – it’s numbered 2.3.3 on

page 2 – reads as follows:

35

Was there any situation on board which may lead to infection or the spread of

disease?

There are two boxes provided for an answer. The small one has a typescript capital

N inserted. The larger one with the title Details is blank. Does that accord with your 40

understanding that you have prepared that form so as to signify the answer no to that

question?

MR McLURE: Commissioner, I’m sorry. I’m sorry to object again. I just think

that for that question to be properly understood, 2.3.3, it needs to be seen in the 45

context of the heading 2.3.


MR BEASLEY SC

COMMISSIONER: Couldn’t agree with you more.

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Gastrointestinal illness. 5

MR McLURE: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Yes. Did you hear what Mr McLure said, Doctor?

10

DR VON WATZDORF: No, I didn’t.

COMMISSIONER: I’m sorry.

DR VON WATZDORF: No, I didn’t. 15

COMMISSIONER: That’s the fault of the setup. I apologies. 2.3.3 is a question

which comes in a sequence under a subheading 2.3 called “Gastrointestinal illness.”

Is it for that reason that the answer “no” is given to the question about whether there

was any situation on board which may lead to infection or the spread of disease? 20

DR VON WATZDORF: I – I wouldn’t – I would love to see the form, to be honest,

so I can actually see what the sequence of questions is. But if that is the sequence of

questioning, that might be the interpretation.

25

COMMISSIONER: So that would - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Initially, typically the question would be linked to having

a outbreak. As far as my memory stretches, and I don’t have the form in front of me

so I cannot really comment on it, having an outbreak of – of gastroenteritis. But I – I 30

feel very disadvantaged for answering about a form that I actually don’t see and I

don’t see the context of.

COMMISSIONER: No.

35

MR BEASLEY: No, no. No, no.

COMMISSIONER: Your point is well-made, and I assure you I will try to the

maximum to prevent any disadvantage materialising. On the first page of that form

under an opening question, number 2: 40

Have any persons become ill or shown signs of illness in the past 14 days?

The response is “Y.” That means yes. Is that correct?

45



MR BEASLEY SC

COMMISSIONER: And the number is 128.

DR VON WATZDORF: What – yes, what – whatever the number is on the form

that you have.

5

COMMISSIONER: And then there - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Again, I don’t - - -

COMMISSIONER: Then there is a bracket of questions under a heading 2.1: 10

Is any person onboard the vessel displaying any of the following symptoms?

And then there is a list of nine numbered descriptions. You’re familiar with that

aspect of the form, I take it? 15


COMMISSIONER: And the first of those is temperature over 38 degrees Celsius.

20


COMMISSIONER: And there is a positive answer to that with a number of 24.

DR VON WATZDORF: Mmm. 25

COMMISSIONER: That’s consistent with a rather large number of illnesses, isn’t

it?

DR VON WATZDORF: What do you mean it’s consistent? 30

COMMISSIONER: A temperature over 38 degrees Celsius may be a sign of a large

number of illnesses. It’s a very nonspecific sign. Is that correct?


COMMISSIONER: It is one of the signs, nonspecific, obviously, of COVID-19,

isn’t it?

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. It could be. 40

COMMISSIONER: Well, you say it could be. It is a sign, albeit very nonspecific.

Is that right or not? Is that correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: It is. 45


MR BEASLEY SC

COMMISSIONER: Yes. For that reason alone, you as a doctor would not read

your form, your human health report, as revealing no signs of COVID-19, would

you?

DR VON WATZDORF: What did I write in the report? Did I say yes or no? I 5

probably – I - - -

COMMISSIONER: You said yes for temperature and 24 in number. You were not

asked any questions about COVID-19 in the form.

10


COMMISSIONER: That is, signs onboard.

DR VON WATZDORF: ..... Let me put it – let me put it this way. If somebody 15

asks me, “Could this be consistent with COVID-19,” I would have said yes.


DR VON WATZDORF: It - - - 20

COMMISSIONER: That’ll do. Question - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Okay.

25

COMMISSIONER: - - - 2(c) on page 3 asked the question:

Has any person on the vessel been in contact with a proven case of novel

coronas infection in the last 14 days?

30

And there is N for no. So far as you are aware, do I take it that is still a correct

answer as of your knowledge on the 18th of March 2020?

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. You broke up in that middle of that. I’m aware

- - - 35

COMMISSIONER: So far as you are aware today, was that answer a correct one for

you to have given on the 18th of March 2020?

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. I – I missed part of the question. Did it say no, 40

because as far as I’m aware, nobody had contact with a known COVID-19 case.

COMMISSIONER: That is what I’m asking you about. Your answer was no - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. The line is very broken, Commissioner. 45

COMMISSIONER: I’m sorry.


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: My apologies.

COMMISSIONER: No. Look, it’s not your fault. The answer is – you gave was

no, and I just wanted to clear it up. So far as you understand, that was then a correct

answer to have given? 5


COMMISSIONER: However, in answer to a question whether anybody had shown

signs consistent with COVID-19, the answer would have been, well, yes, there is the 10

very nonspecific sign of temperature for 24 people. Is that correct? Is that - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Is it 100 per cent consistent with COVID-19, no, because

it can be other illnesses as well. Can it be interpreted as possible COVID-19, yes.

15

COMMISSIONER: No. I don’t mean 100 per cent consistent. It’s a nonspecific

sign. Correct?


20

COMMISSIONER: It’s fairly sensitive, though, isn’t it, in that nearly all COVID-

19 has elevated temperature?


25

COMMISSIONER: That’s not true?


COMMISSIONER: What about - - - 30

DR VON WATZDORF: Not – not to my understanding.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. What about muscle aches? That is a nonspecific

sign or symptom for COVID-19. Is that correct? 35

DR VON WATZDORF: It is a symptom. It’s also a symptom of many other

illnesses, including influenza.

COMMISSIONER: Quite. It’s very nonspecific for COVID-19. 40


COMMISSIONER: Correct?

45



MR BEASLEY SC

COMMISSIONER: Persistent coughing is also a nonspecific sign for COVID-19.

Is that correct?


5

COMMISSIONER: Where there is a blank that is neither a Y nor an N in the first

column, and nothing in the second column for a number opposite these symptoms,

did you intend in filling out that form to convey that you were not aware of any

display of those symptoms by anybody on board?

10

DR VON WATZDORF: Persistent – persistent coughing I would have said yes,

there would have been. As I said, that form – that form is a electronic submission

form that I ..... administration officer about and given the values telephonically

because if you do the paper format, it skips some of the questions. It doesn’t show

all the questions, we found, and so if – it needs to be electronically submitted, which 15

he always does.

COMMISSIONER: Can you explain why the question 2.1.7 has no entry either for

a yes or no or for any number, and I’ll just read it to you:

20

Persistent coughing and difficulty breathing with no apparent cause and no

history of similar symptoms, but not persistent coughing and difficult breathing

caused by asthma, heart disease, obesity, chronic bronchitis or emphysema.

DR VON WATZDORF: No. I can’t explain why that doesn’t have a value. I 25

would expect that to have a value at the – there should be a value in there.

COMMISSIONER: Tell me, when filling out that form, and if you had in mind a

patient who you regard as showing signs of influenza-like illness, would that patient

be someone who displayed symptoms of persistent coughing with no apparent cause? 30

DR VON WATZDORF: If there were – yes, most influenza-like illness will fall

into that because they tend to have a cough.

COMMISSIONER: I’m just wondering what no apparent – with no apparent cause 35

means? What does that mean? Does it mean you have no - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. I didn’t - - -

COMMISSIONER: - - - idea why they’re coughing, or what? 40

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. I didn’t – I didn’t hear the question. It broke up.

COMMISSIONER: What does “with no apparent cause” mean?

45

DR VON WATZDORF: Well, it is – it is – I was asking myself that question

before. I assumed it to mean there was no known disease process, so not confirmed


MR BEASLEY SC

pneumonia, you know, or chronic – chronic asthma, chronic COPD, hypertension,

drug use, other medication even can cause coughing.

COMMISSIONER: Thanks. Did you ever have a discussion with anybody onshore

on the night of the 18th of March or early on the 19th of March where you talked them 5

through or described what your human health report meant?

DR VON WATZDORF: Like, step by step what it meant?

COMMISSIONER: In any respect at all. Do you remember having a discussion 10

with - - -


COMMISSIONER: - - - anybody onshore about what you had reported in that 15

document?

DR VON WATZDORF: The harbour master – well, I – as per Mr Beasley’s

previous question, I’m assuming the VTS thing?

20

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: When they questioned me, they said that we had reported

– and I can’t – I can’t recall the exact conversation, but we had reported a number of

illness on the MARS report, if I – if I recollect this correctly. And they had said that 25

a number of them were febrile, and I would have confirmed that. I can’t recall the

rest of the conversation, whether I went through each step of the question. I can’t

recall that. But I did – sorry?

COMMISSIONER: Please continue. 30

DR VON WATZDORF: I can’t recall whether we went through each of the steps of

the question. I do think – question – I do recall that there was a question about

febrile illness. I do recall that we had people with febrile illness on board that did

not – well, I think I recall that. I mean, I – it was 2 o’clock in the morning. I was 35

pretty exhausted. But that we had people with febrile upper respiratory tract

infection on board who have tested negative for influenza, and I think it was

provided in the context of the two disembarks, because that’s how we would have

had the conversation, and then that – yes. That’s all I can recall about that about the

– about any conversation about the MARS report. 40

COMMISSIONER: This was a discussion with people who were not medically

trained. Isn’t that right?

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. If it’s referring to the one with VTS. VTS or 45

harbour master.


MR BEASLEY SC

COMMISSIONER: Do you recall with whom you were speaking, any name?

DR VON WATZDORF: No, I don’t.

COMMISSIONER: Was it - - - 5

DR VON WATZDORF: I just remember that they said that – the context of the

conversation was in context – or the context – if we are referring to that

conversation. Are we referring to that conversation?

10

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: So the context of that conversation to me, at least, was the

fact that we were almost – not accused, but the question was asked whether we had

bogus calls on board, that – that they had received a bogus call for – for an 15

ambulance to be ready for the ship’s arrival and whether these were real patients.

MR BEASLEY: I think to assist the doctor there, I think there was a view taken by

the police at one stage that the ambulance officer who was ringing to seek

clarification of who was being picked up and what symptoms they have was a prank 20

caller, for whatever reason. He most certainly was not.

COMMISSIONER: No. I do understand that.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. 25

COMMISSIONER: I’m trying to find out, Doctor - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Right.

30

COMMISSIONER: - - - whether you have any recollection of discussions with

onshore authorities on that night of the 18th, early morning of the 19th, in which - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. I didn’t hear the first part of the question. My

apologies. 35

COMMISSIONER: Is there anything that can be done to fix the line, please? No?

So can anything be done to fix it? It’s very unfair on the witness. No? Doctor, my

apologies. We cannot supply appropriate equipment for this exercise, but we’ll

struggle on with what we’ve got. Please continue to tell me if you don’t hear what 40

you have to say. I’m trying to find out whether on the night of the 18th of March,

early morning of the 19th of March, in any discussion you had with somebody you

understood to be an onshore authority, whether you said anything which you now

think may have been such as to convey the message that there were no signs of

COVID-19 on board; that there were no passengers showing COVID-19 symptoms. 45

Could you answer that, please?


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: I can’t recall saying that as – as you stated it.

COMMISSIONER: Well, why I ask it in those terms doesn’t really matter at the

moment, but they are the terms that I need to ask you about. Is it fair to say that one

of the reasons for you answering my question as you just have is that today you think 5

that would be wrong for you to have said that. Is that correct, or not?

DR VON WATZDORF: I just don’t think I would have said it even at the time.

COMMISSIONER: And is that because it would have been wrong to say so and 10

you like to think you wouldn’t have said something wrong? Is that correct?


COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Sorry, Mr Beasley. Thank you for that. 15

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Look, that conversation is recorded, and the way it’s

summarised potentially doesn’t entirely reflect the recording. Can I ask you this,

Doctor. Did you have anything to do with New South Wales Health preparing

what’s called a pre-arrival risk assessment form for passengers and crew? If you 20

don’t know what I’m talking about, please tell me.

DR VON WATZDORF: I don’t know what you’re talking about.

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. Did you have any – were you told that anyone in New 25

South Wales Health would be doing a risk assessment in relation to passengers and

crew of the ship based on medical information that the ship supplied, whether

through you or someone else?


MR BEASLEY: All right. What was your understanding about that?

DR VON WATZDORF: They requested the email that you apparently do have.

35

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: That was the only communication that I had received, and

was replied at the time as provided in that email with attachments as noted.

40

MR BEASLEY: Yes. And that included the log we’ve been discussing.


MR BEASLEY: The ARD log. 45



MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Correct?


MR BEASLEY: And did you have any discussions with anyone in New South – 5

apart from supplying that information, did you have any discussions with anyone

from New South Wales Health about the precise number of people that had – sorry –

passengers and crew that had presented to your medical centre with acute respiratory

illness or the precise number of people who had been treated for – or diagnosed with

an influenza-like illness, or was that information only obtainable through analysis of 10

the log.

DR VON WATZDORF: The analysis of the log at that time as it was the number

that – that – you know, I – we did have telephonic discussions. I can’t recall whether

there was particular mentioning of it. But the log I provided on that – the one of the 15

18th was as it is.

MR BEASLEY: Did anyone from New South Wales Health contact you and say

have we got our figures correct? As an example, is it correct that 104 passengers and

crew presented to the clinic with acute respiratory illness? Did you have any 20

conversation along those lines?

DR VON WATZDORF: Not that I can recall.

MR BEASLEY: And equally, did you have - - - 25

DR VON WATZDORF: I had a - - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Go on.

30

DR VON WATZDORF: Apologies. I had a conversation about the five tests that

were conducted in Wellington, and they wanted to know whether I had proof of those

results, and I said yes.

MR BEASLEY: I see. All right. And do you recall any discussion with anyone 35

from New South Wales Health about dealing with a percentage number of

passengers and crew who had presented with influenza-like illness?


40

MR BEASLEY: And did you have any knowledge about whether there was any

significance about whether one per cent or more of passengers and crew on board

had an influenza-like illness?

DR VON WATZDORF: No. 45

COMMISSIONER: Is that a convenient time?


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: It is. Yes. How long do you want to take?

COMMISSIONER: Half an hour.

MR BEASLEY: We’re going to have a break now, Doctor, for lunch for 30 5

minutes. So - - -

COMMISSIONER: Doctor, I’m very grateful for your forbearance. I know how

difficult and awkward this is. I hope you appreciate the elements of urgency. We

will try to proceed as quickly as we can, recommencing at half past 1. Thank you. 10



15

ADJOURNED [1.01 pm]

RESUMED [1.34 pm] 20

COMMISSIONER: I think we’re ready to resume.

MR BEASLEY: Well, I’m ready, Commissioner, if you’re ready. 25

COMMISSIONER: Doctor, if we could resume again now, please.

MR BEASLEY: You can hear us okay, Doctor?

30

DR VON WATZDORF: Hello. Yes.


MR BEASLEY: Great. Thank you. I’m just – I’m actually almost done. I’ve just 35

got a few more questions, but not many. I just wanted to go back to – you recall I

asked you some questions about the email you reserved from New South Wales

Health on the 17th of March 2020 at 4.01 pm, which amongst other things sought

from you your ARD log. You remember that?

40


MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: I do. 45


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: And you responded with an email on 18 March 2020, 9.39 am the

next morning, amongst other things, apologising for being late because you were

caught up with some X-rays, and you attached the ARD log to that email. Correct

DR VON WATZDORF: Mmm. 5

MR BEASLEY: You’ve got to say yes for the transcript, I’m sorry. Yes?

DR VON WATZDORF: Can you hear me?

10

MR BEASLEY: I can. That – I assume, and tell me if I’m wrong, that log that you

emailed at 9.39 am was fully up to date in terms of any passenger or crew who had

reported having either acute respiratory infection or influenza-like illness?

DR VON WATZDORF: To my knowledge, yes. 15

MR BEASLEY: When you say “to your knowledge, yes” you said you had primary

responsibility for the log, and you’ve attached it to your email. Would there be any

reason why the log wouldn’t be fully up to date at the time you emailed it?

20

DR VON WATZDORF: No. It should be up to date as - - -


DR VON WATZDORF: - - - it is. 25

MR BEASLEY: But I’m right in assuming that between 9.39 am on the 18th of

March and the time of the ship docking – actually, I’ll ask a question before that. Of

the people in the log, does the log only record – it records both passengers and crew,

or only passengers? 30

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. There’s a breakup again.

MR BEASLEY: Does the log - - -

35

DR VON WATZDORF: Of the audio.

MR BEASLEY: - - - record - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: I didn’t hear the question. 40

MR BEASLEY: In terms of people onboard the ship with acute respiratory

infection or influenza-like illness, is it a record of both passengers and crew or only

passengers?

45

DR VON WATZDORF: Passengers and crew.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Right. I’ll come back to that. But – and assuming it was up to

date when it was emailed by you at 9.39 in the morning on the 18th of March 2020,

by the time the ship is about to dock about 18 hours later, in the early hours of the

morning on the 19th of March, I’m right in assuming, aren’t I, that more people had

presented themselves to the medical centre with symptoms of either acute respiratory 5

infection or influenza-like illness?

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. You’re correct.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And you therefore – you or the other doctor at some 10

stage would have updated the log to reflect that?


MR BEASLEY: All right. But I’m also right, aren’t I, that it was only after 15

passengers had disembarked that an updated log was provided to New South Wales

Health at some time on the 20th of March, the following day. Is that correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: That is correct. Yes.

20


DR VON WATZDORF: I was under the impression that I had sent it.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Just to help you with that, you were having a series of 25

WhatsApp exchanges with Ms Ressler, who we’ve discussed before, from the 18th of

March. This is before the ship is docked, and right up until the 20th of March

concerning both the condition of passengers and crew onboard an also the collecting

of the - - -

30

DR VON WATZDORF: My apologies. The line is broken. I can’t hear anything.

MR BEASLEY: You can’t hear anything? Can you hear me now?

DR VON WATZDORF: Now. Yes. 35

MR BEASLEY: All right. You recall you’d had a series of message exchanges

with Kelly Ressler from the 18th of March. Remember that?


MR BEASLEY: And they were about, amongst other things, the condition of some

of the patients from the medical centre. Correct?

DR VON WATZDORF: That is correct. I don’t have the messages in front of me 45

but, yes, I do remember having a conversation about them.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Don’t worry. I do not expect you to remember what’s in these

word for word and I will assist you as far as I can with the difficulty we’ve got that

you don’t have the document in front of me. But do you recall her asking you what

were the results of the COVID tests from Wellington? Do you have any recollection

of that? 5

DR VON WATZDORF: I didn’t hear the question. The line - - -

MR BEASLEY: Do you have any recollection - - -

10

DR VON WATZDORF: The last word that I heard is “request”.

MR BEASLEY: Do you have a recollection that she asked you for information

about the COVID testing that was done in Wellington? We might need to stop there

because we didn’t get any of the answer. So - - - 15

DR VON WATZDORF: Can you hear me?

COMMISSIONER: No.

20

MR BEASLEY: I can hear you now. Did you hear my question?

DR VON WATZDORF: I heard you asking about the results in Wellington and my

reply to that was that I can’t recall whether that was a verbal conversation or a text

conversation but I can remember having the conversation. 25

MR BEASLEY: All right. Good. And do you remember asking Ms Ressler on the

18th of March specifically whether she wanted you to take some swabs of passengers

that were from the United States?

30

DR VON WATZDORF: My apologies, the video – I just can’t hear the questions.

This is if anything worse than before.

MR BEASLEY: Do we need to take a 10-minute break, Commissioner, to see if we

can fix this? 35

COMMISSIONER: Doctor, I’m sorry, what we’re going to do on my part without

any optimism is to take a 10-minute break to see whether we can address the

technical matters. My apologies.

40

DR VON WATZDORF: No, that’s all right. I understand. It’s frustrating but it is

for you as well.

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

45

MR BEASLEY: All right. Well, we’ll take a 10-minute break, Doctor, and we’ll go

off the record now.


MR BEASLEY SC

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

ADJOURNED [1.43 pm]

5

RESUMED [1.46 pm]

COMMISSIONER: We’re going to try again, Doctor. Thank you for your patience. 10



15

MR BEASLEY: I’m taking you to some – I was asking you about some WhatsApp

messaging with Ms Ressler. You remember that?


20

MR BEASLEY: And you had some discussions with her about the swabs being

tested that you’d taken.


25

MR BEASLEY: And you specifically raised with her, people from the US. I’m just

wondering why you did that.

DR VON WATZDORF: The phone – there was a phone call in between when she

asked me – she advised me that they were concerned about people that had travelled 30

through the US and how they were doing. And I said, “Well, we’ll follow up on

that” so there’s perhaps a bit of disconnect between the text and – and the phone

calls.

MR BEASLEY: Right. Okay. In any event, the passengers get off board. The 35

swabs are tested and eventually you’re informed, certainly by Ms Ressler – I don’t

know whether you were told before, but you were informed that some of the swabs

had returned positive for COVID-19.


MR BEASLEY: And was the first indication you have about that, was that from Ms

Ressler; do you recall?

DR VON WATZDORF: No, it was basically a minute before she let me know. 45

MR BEASLEY: Okay.


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: Head office let me know in a matter of minutes.

MR BEASLEY: All right. That was mid-morning on the 20th of March. Does that

sound about right?

5

DR VON WATZDORF: It sounds about right, yes.

MR BEASLEY: And then one of the things Ms Ressler asked you also by

WhatsApp on the 20th of March – and I’m now – we’re now at 5 pm, she said to you:

10

Some of the people swabbed aren’t on the log I have. Did you add - - -


MR BEASLEY: 15

- - - any more patients after you sent it to me, and do you have an updated log?

And you said:

20

I’ll send it now. Sorry, I forgot. The last one was from the morning. It was so

crazy.

Do I take it – does the Commissioner take it from that you’d forgotten to send the

final updated log? 25

DR VON WATZDORF: I had the final updated log in a draft box. It had just – the

day just became – I did not have enough hours, I think. It was just - - -

MR BEASLEY: All right. And by saying - - - 30

DR VON WATZDORF: It was really - - -

MR BEASLEY: Sorry, when it says - - -

35

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - .....

MR BEASLEY:

- - - I forgot. The last one was from the morning. 40

Is that a reference to the last log or is that a reference to the last patient you saw?

DR VON WATZDORF: No, that’s a reference to the last log that I sent.

45

MR BEASLEY: Right. Okay. And in any event, the log that you sent on the 20th

of March to Ms Ressler had updates for passengers and crew seen and recorded as


MR BEASLEY SC

having symptoms for acute respiratory infection and influenza-like illness from the

18th and 19th that were in addition to the ones that you had emailed back on the

morning of the 18th of March. Correct.


MR BEASLEY: All right. And the evidence for the Commissioner about that is

that you had become very busy. You used the word “crazy”, and that was simply an

oversight on your behalf in forgetting to send the final version of the log.

10



COMMISSIONER: Can I just – which of the various versions I’ve got here should I 15

understand was the last log sent before disembarkation?

MR BEASLEY: It’ll have 19 March 2020 and the last entry is for someone called

Ryder.

20

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Now, and I may take it the doctor does not have

any of this with her.

MR BEASLEY: You can ask the doctor. I’m sure she’s got it electronically but not

in front of her right now. 25

COMMISSIONER: Doctor, bear with me. I apologise again for the way urgent

circumstances mean we aren’t as well set up as I would like. If, on the log, among

those reported to medical staff on the 18th of March there is a member of the crew

with a recorded temperature of 39.2, and negative test results for flu A and B with a 30

swab collected. Does that mean that that crew member was showing a symptom of

COVID-19 or not?

DR VON WATZDORF: It just means he – he was having a fever, and had

respiratory symptoms. 35

MR BEASLEY: I think, Commissioner - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: He had a symptom of any - - -

40

MR BEASLEY: Just hang on – just hang on a second, Doctor. I think,

Commissioner, do you mean does that mean consistent with a symptom of what

could be COVID-19 or - - -

COMMISSIONER: No, no. I mean – I’m using the language deliberately. I’ll get 45

to that. First of all, I’m asking the question would that amount to that crew member

showing a symptom of COVID-19. And you’ve said, well – I don’t want to put


MR BEASLEY SC

words into your mouth – well, what’s your answer to that? I’ve chosen the words

deliberately – believe me – does that amount to that member showing symptoms of

COVID-19?

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. A symptom of – potentially of COVID-19. Yes. 5

COMMISSIONER: There’s an email from Ruby Bridge to Sydney Vessel Traffic

Service which records at least the Ruby’s senior doctor being copied in. Is that you?

DR VON WATZDORF: That’s me, yes. 10

COMMISSIONER: And the particular time is 8.03 pm on the 18th of March. And

Ruby Bridge to Sydney Vessel Traffic Service sends what is called an arrival

declaration. Is that an expression with which you’re familiar?

15


COMMISSIONER: And the third of the questions reads as follows:

Are any crew members showing symptoms of COVID-19 on board? 20

And the answer indicated is “No.”. Have you got any recollection of being aware of

that question being answered in that fashion at 8.03 pm?

DR VON WATZDORF: I am but what I am not confident in is what time that crew 25

member was seen.

COMMISSIONER: No. Well, you anticipate me. I was about to ask - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: I don’t know. 30

COMMISSIONER: The log form doesn’t give us times of the clock for the date of

report. Do I follow – do I gather, then, from the way you’ve answered that question

that that would have been a mistaken answer if at the time it was given it was already

known that there had been a member with that temperature – 39.2 – and for good 35

measure, testing negative for flu. That would have made that answer wrong; is that

correct?


40

COMMISSIONER: Yes.


COMMISSIONER: Well, now - - - 45


MR BEASLEY SC

DR VON WATZDORF: I don’t know what time I was aware of that. So the two

questions would be – again, like I said earlier, that the log is not a continuous

process. IT is something that gets updated when we get the chance and I don’t know

when it was updated.

5

COMMISSIONER: No. Quite.

DR VON WATZDORF: And whether that was done before that information was

sent through to the bridge or not.

10

COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you. Thank you.

MR BEASLEY: Do you recall – and these hours may be long, but do you recall

what hours you were yourself on duty on the 18th and 19th of March?

15

DR VON WATZDORF: Almost continuously. I don’t – I don’t ..... I don’t know –

a few hours.

MR BEASLEY: Right. In relation to that email the Commissioner was asking you

about, though, Ruby Bridge is a reference to someone who is the first officer, Mr F. 20

Savarasi; is that right?

DR VON WATZDORF: I don’t know if it’s – but, yes, I’m assuming so.

MR BEASLEY: Would he have – it’s his email. I assume he got the information in 25

relation to the responses to this email from you.

DR VON WATZDORF: I would assume so, yes.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. All right. 30

COMMISSIONER: Doctor, I don’t know if you can help; I’ve got copies of what

appears to be an ARI log which I understand was sent by the ship on the 18th of

March which, as to its last dozen or so entries shows what I’ll call anomalous dates.

It moves from the 17th of March to a sequence of the 13th of March but years through 35

2020 to 2033. That’s not my understanding of how a log could be prepared. Are you

familiar with that kind of glitch?

DR VON WATZDORF: So the one part is an electronic log – sorry, am I – I’m

assuming or understanding the question correctly that you’re asking about the 13th 40

and the 17th dates on there?

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: And that the data looks different. So the 13th and the 17th 45

were dates that we did the screening tests – the screening. So the log data – the

complete line as it gets populated from our electronic health care records being T-


MR BEASLEY SC

care. And the other data is data obtained from screening events that place, for

example, on the 13th we had a questionnaire that went out which I referred to earlier,

with ..... negative responses to a question of fever, respiratory symptoms and so

forth. So that would be referring to the 13th data. And so these are not patients that

were necessarily seen in the medical centre, but were picked – had ..... 5

COMMISSIONER: I understand. It’s just the form - - -


10

COMMISSIONER: The form has dates – the one I’m looking at has dates starting

the 9th of March 2020 for the report to medical staff. And it then goes in date order

to the last of the 17th of March 2020 entries and then it has a set of a dozen or so

designated as the 13th of March but by years which start in 2020 – this year – and

move through year by year to 2033, which has not yet happened. 15

DR VON WATZDORF: No, that’s .....

COMMISSIONER: So there’s a glitch and I’m just wondering what does that

mean? 20

DR VON WATZDORF: I wasn’t aware of that - - -

COMMISSIONER: Are they spurious entries altogether or is it just the date that is

wrong? 25

MR McLURE: Commissioner, I’m sorry, can I be of assistance?


30

DR VON WATZDORF: To 2023.

MR McLURE: I’m looking at on my computer .....

MR BEASLEY: You won’t – sorry, can you – do you want to come forward. 35

COMMISSIONER: I’m sorry, Doctor.

MR BEASLEY: It won’t go on the transcript.

40

COMMISSIONER: Mr McLure is going to help us, I think, I hope.

MR McLURE: I have on my computer the native versions of the two emails with

the two attachments.

45

COMMISSIONER: Yes.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR McLURE: And those versions do not have the glitch you are referring to.

COMMISSIONER: That’s certainly helpful. Yes.

MR McLURE: What I have seen is a paper copy of the spreadsheet which does 5

have the glitch on it.

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR McLURE: And I think Ms Furness may be able to explain where that comes 10

from.

COMMISSIONER: We won’t take the time of the witness now. Thank you very

much. I’m obliged. Doctor, I’ve wasted your time. Sorry about that.

15

DR VON WATZDORF: No. I didn’t even realise it. I didn’t see it. Sorry. I

wasn’t aware there was one.

COMMISSIONER: Thanks.

20

MR BEASLEY: Can I just ask you a few - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: I thought you were referring to ..... my apologies.

COMMISSIONER: No, no. It’s all right. 25

MR BEASLEY: Can I just ask you a few final questions, doctor. I asked you about

a pre-arrival risk assessment form, and you said you don’t know what it is, and that’s

reasonable, because it’s not your document. Some - - -

30

DR VON WATZDORF: I know that they – they were referring to doing an

assessment. I don’t know the details.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Can you help me understand this, though. The form

records that 36 crew and passengers had an influenza-like illness on the ship, but 48 35

were tested for flu. Can you explain to me why there’s more people tested for flu

than are showing an influenza-like illness? Does that - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: I had a telephonic conversation with Kelly-Anne, and I

can’t remember whether we touched on it or whether this was a decision that I made 40

all on my own, but I wanted to see – you’ll see that those patients that were

additionally tested had no fever.

MR BEASLEY: Right.

45

DR VON WATZDORF: And I just wanted to see what the results would show up if

we tested them.


MS FURNESS SC

MR BEASLEY: All right. And is it your recollection - - -


MR BEASLEY: - - - that of the 48 people that were tested for flu, 24 tested 5

positive?

DR VON WATZDORF: The ones that you have in front of you are the ones that

tested positive, according to my knowledge.

10


DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. I mean, I don’t see the form that you have – I don’t

see the form that you have in front of you, but if it’s the spreadsheet that I submitted

- - - 15

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - those were the ones that tested positive.

20


DR VON WATZDORF: We did test ..... I just decided to test everybody to see

what the results would look like.

25

MR BEASLEY: All right. Thank you. I don’t have any more questions for the

doctor, Commissioner. Unless you do. I do understand because of – and I don’t

know what Mr McLure’s position is and whether he wants to make a submission to

you, but Ms Furness told me because of the late provision of documents that she

might seek leave to ask a few questions of the witness. 30

COMMISSIONER: Is that so, Ms Furness?

<EXAMINATION BY MS FURNESS SC [2.03 pm] 35

MS FURNESS: Just a couple, Commissioner. Thank you. That - - -

COMMISSIONER: So long as you can do it from a microphone that is going to 40

record you.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. You’re going to have to come forward too, I think.

COMMISSIONER: Doctor, Ms Furness of Senior Counsel is going to ask you some 45

questions. She’s been granted leave to appear for what I’ll call some State health

authorities.


MS FURNESS SC

DR VON WATZDORF: Okay.

MS FURNESS: Hello, Doctor.

DR VON WATZDORF: Hello. 5

MS FURNESS: Can I - - -

MR BEASLEY: Get closer to the mic.

10

MS FURNESS: - - - ask you some questions about the ARD logs. Now, I

understand you don’t have them in front of you, but we understand there are two

versions, the first provided on the 18th of March, and the second on the 20th of

March. That’s right?

15


MS FURNESS: Now, can I just read from the later log, just because it’s got the

numbers next to it of the passengers and crew so it makes it easier to understand. So

if you’ll just accept from me that number 7 is a crew member from Italy, and that 20

crew member has a temperature of 36.4 - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. Sorry. I didn’t hear that. The – did something

happen to the mic?

25

MS FURNESS: The – did you hear that is a crew member with the country of - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: From Italy.

MS FURNESS: A crew member with a country of residence as Italy and a 30

temperature of 36.4, and Y, a yes for ARI, an N for ILI. Now, the N for ILI

represents that the man doesn’t have a temperature, effectively, a fever.


35

MS FURNESS: And then the influenza test was not done. And in the comments it

says contract started 23rd October 2019, resolved.


40

MS FURNESS: Can you explain why that is in the comments section?

DR VON WATZDORF: Because Italy was one of those high-risk countries, so we

were trying to identify which – we were trying to ..... according to, you know, the

countries that were considered high risk, and I suspect I anticipated that we might get 45

the question of coming from Italy having someone on board when their contract has

commenced.


MS FURNESS SC

MS FURNESS: So effectively is what you’re conveying that this person had not

been in Italy in the last 14 days since he boarded the ship?


5

MS FURNESS: That’s right?


MS FURNESS: So therefore - - - 10


MS FURNESS: - - - he could be excluded as part of the question you were initially

asked about whether anyone had been in various counties. 15


MS FURNESS: Now, is it the same in relation to the crew member of Thailand?

That person appears at 38. He has a temperature of 38.7. I’m assuming it’s a he, but 20

I might be wrong. Again, no for ARI and yes for ILI. I’ll come back to the no in a

minute.

MR McLURE: N for no.

25

MS FURNESS: Thank you. And contract started 22nd of November 2019, and this

person is from Thailand.


30

MS FURNESS: Did you include that comment in the comments on the same basis,

that Thailand was a country then of some concern?

DR VON WATZDORF: I can’t see the form in front of me, so I don’t know

whether I did it for everybody or whether there was a question mark around 35

Thailand. I want to think that there was a question around Thailand at the time, but

again, that will – I would need to see the questionnaire that we were using at the time

and whether Thailand was on the list of countries.

MS FURNESS: But - - - 40


MS FURNESS: Thank you, Doctor. But nevertheless, the fact that you had the

contract starting on the 22nd of November 2019 meant to you that this person had not 45

been in Thailand within 14 days of boarding the cruise. Is that right? Did you hear

me, Doctor?


MS FURNESS SC

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. Yes. Yes. I said yes.

MS FURNESS: Okay. Thank you. Now, finally, in relation to the Thailand man,

you’ve got under the heading ARI no. But isn’t it the case that everyone on this log

had acute respiratory infection by definition? 5

DR VON WATZDORF: So the way the logs get settled – everybody is called acute

..... the way the log’s separated, it’s separated into ARI and ILI based on a few

variables that is in the log in electronic format.

10

MS FURNESS: So - - -

DR VON WATZDORF: And – yes. Go ahead.

MS FURNESS: So I take it that the log is ARD, that is, acute respiratory disease, of 15

which there are two components: acute respiratory infection and influenza-like

infections or illnesses.

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. Yes.

20

MS FURNESS: Just finally, Doctor, looking down this log – and again, it’s the later

log – for a period during the 17th of March, there’s no entry in the ILI comments for

about a dozen or so people.

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes. So these – that’s what I was referring to earlier, or 25

just briefly alluding to, that we did screening day of – health screening on anybody

that had symptoms. 17 on the logs, which .....

MS FURNESS: I’m sorry, Doctor.

30

DR VON WATZDORF: Of people - - -

MS FURNESS: I have to say I didn’t hear any of that. Would you mind starting

again.

35

DR VON WATZDORF: You can see that on the log there’s a period 16 and one on

the 17th - - -

MS FURNESS: Yes.

40

DR VON WATZDORF: - - - where there are – what almost appear as incomplete

records.

MS FURNESS: Yes.

45

DR VON WATZDORF: Now, those were screening days, and these individuals –

this was in response to an announcement for people to come down and come and see


MS FURNESS SC

us if they had any symptoms or if they had ..... questionnaire indicting that they had a

fever or respiratory symptoms, they would be called. Obviously we wouldn’t want

people to have – to be together in the medical centre just ..... so we would see them

and do a paper assessment on them separately, and if they then were considered as an

ILI or somebody with significant symptoms, we would go ahead and do a formal 5

assessment on ..... the premise of that is that a lot of people would just come and say,

oh, can I have my temperature checked. I don’t really have other symptoms. Or – or

would come down and say I just have a bit of a runny nose, you know, for a few days

– since a day or so. Don’t want any medication, don’t want to see anybody, but I just

thought I would come and have my temperature checked, and so there would be 10

paper records for those patients, clearly, and the intention was at one point transfer

them and add them to the electronic system. It was just to facilitate seeing more

patients kind of in a shorter period.

MS FURNESS: So I take it, then, that we should read those spaces as no or N under 15

the ILI comment for each – column for each of those people?


MS FURNESS: Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. 20


MS FURNESS: Thank you, Mr Beasley.

25

MR BEASLEY: I don’t think – Mr McLure doesn’t want to seek leave to ask

anything, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Doctor, during the 18th of March, and before the

disembarkation on the 19th of March, did you have any communication of any kind 30

with representatives of the ship owner or charterer, wherever they were, concerning

whether disembarkation would be permitted without health assessment on board?

DR VON WATZDORF: Sorry. Just correct me if I understand the question

correctly. You are wanting to know whether I had any communication with the 35

company regarding whether disembarkation would be allowed or not allowed?

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

DR VON WATZDORF: I can’t recall having a conversation. Did I have one? I do 40

actually think we had some communication before the previous disembarkation. I do

think there was communication the previous time. I’m not sure about this time. I

can’t recall.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. Anything out of that, Mr McLure? 45


MR McLURE: No, thank you. Thank you very much, Doctor, for your patience

and your time.

COMMISSIONER: Yes. May I extend my appreciation, Doctor, for your patience,

and I do understand what a burden it is at this time, and thank you very much. 5


COMMISSIONER: Your evidence is now complete. You are discharged.

10

DR VON WATZDORF: Thank you very much. Have a good day.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.14 pm]

15

MR BEASLEY: On my sheet I’ve been given, Mr – I apologise if I’m not using the

right title here, but Mr Azzarelli is the next witness, and Mr Kirby is going to ask

him some questions when he’s available.

20

COMMISSIONER: Now, I - - -

MR BEASLEY: We might have a short break, though, while that - - -

COMMISSIONER: Could we do that? I don’t know how it’s being set up on 25

board.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Thanks. 30

ADJOURNED [2.15 pm]

35

RESUMED [2.33 pm]

MR BEASLEY: Just before Mr Kirby commences, Commissioner, obviously,

we’ve both referred to documents. At some convenient time, I’ll seek to tender 40

those.

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR BEASLEY: If anyone who’s listening or sitting here has an objection, they can 45

let me know. Otherwise, I’ll do that at a convenient time.

.RUBY PRINCESS INQUIRY 22.4.20R1 P-107 S. AZZARELLI

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR BEASLEY: Just for the record also, you summons to appear a number of other

witnesses. I won’t read out their names, but I informed Mr McLure that on the list

that I have of witnesses, 3 and 4 today and witnesses 5, 7, and 8 tomorrow are 5

excused, and there’s just the current witness and also Mr – the hotel manager, Mr

Verwall.


10

MR BEASLEY: It’s probably - - -

COMMISSIONER: Both of whom we should be able to complete today.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. 15


MR BEASLEY: Maybe Mr Verwall, but I apologise for whichever way I’ve

mispronounced that. 20

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Kirby. Your witness.

MR KIRBY: Thank you, Commissioner.

25

COMMISSIONER: Could you arrange for him to be sworn.

MR KIRBY: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Or affirmed. 30

<SEBASTIANO AZZARELLI, CALLED [2.34 pm]

35

MR KIRBY: Mr Azzarelli, can you hear me okay?

MR AZZARELLI: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

MR KIRBY: Your name is Sebastiano Azzarelli? 40

MR AZZARELLI: Correct.

MR KIRBY: And you are the staff captain on the Ruby Princess. Yes?

45

MR AZZARELLI: Yes, sir.

.RUBY PRINCESS INQUIRY 22.4.20R1 P-108 AZZARELLI/AZZARELLI XN

MR KIRBY

MR KIRBY: Do you wish to take an oath or an affirmation? Do you believe in

God?

MR AZZARELLI: Yes. I believe.

5

MR KIRBY: All right. Well, could you please just listen carefully to what I’m

going to ask you, and if you agree, say “I do.”

<SEBASTIANO AZZARELLI, SWORN [2.35 pm] 10

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR KIRBY

15

MR KIRBY: Mr Azzarelli, how long have you been on the Ruby Princess?


MR KIRBY: Mr Azzarelli, how long have you been on the Ruby Princess now? 20

MR AZZARELLI: Since the 18th of February.

MR KIRBY: And before that, were you on another ship or were you on leave?

25

MR AZZARELLI: I was on leave.

MR KIRBY: How long have you worked for Carnival or Princess Cruises?

MR AZZARELLI: About ..... 30

MR KIRBY: And how long of those – how long have you been a staff captain?

MR AZZARELLI: Four years.

35

MR KIRBY: And have you held that position on the Ruby Princess alone, or have

you held that position on other vessels too?

MR AZZARELLI: Also other vessels.

40

MR KIRBY: When did you first come aboard the Ruby Princess?

MR AZZARELLI: First time I came on board, the ..... 18th of February.

MR KIRBY: Now, I asked you and I think you said yes, that your role is staff 45

captain on the Ruby Princess. Is that right?


MR KIRBY

MR AZZARELLI: Yes. My role is staff captain.

MR KIRBY: Could you please explain to the Commission what that role involves?

MR AZZARELLI: It’s the second in command of the vessel and in charge of safety 5

and security onboard.

MR KIRBY: I just want to make sure that I heard your answer correctly. Did you

say that you’re second in command on the vessel, in charge of safety and security?

10


MR KIRBY: So second in command, that is after Commodore Pomato?

MR AZZARELLI: Correct. 15

MR KIRBY: And in charge of safety and security. What does that mean?

MR AZZARELLI: ..... safety and ..... which means the life jacket ..... and fire safety

implements, extinguisher and lifeboats and – and security. 20

MR KIRBY: Does your role as the manager or supervisor in charge of safety and

security also require you to – does it require you to take responsibility for the health

of passengers in the event of an outbreak?

25

MR AZZARELLI: No, sir.

MR KIRBY: Does it require you to take responsibility for the health of crew in the

case of an outbreak?

30

MR AZZARELLI: No.

MR KIRBY: So by safety and security, you’re talking really about navigational

safety and security and maritime safety and security?

35

MR AZZARELLI: Correct. Yes.

MR KIRBY: Do I understand the structure of the organisational management

aboard the Ruby Princess correctly if I say that the medical department comes within

the responsibility of the hotel manager. 40

MR AZZARELLI: I’m not going to ..... this one. No.

MR KIRBY: Sorry, I didn’t really hear your answer, but my question was pretty

confusing so I’ll ask it a different way. Does the medical department fall under the 45

hotel manager’s responsibility?


MR KIRBY


MR KIRBY: When you came aboard the Ruby Princess on the 18th of February, is

it the case that – well, where was that? What port was that?

5

MR AZZARELLI: I joined in Auckland.

MR KIRBY: Did a number of crew join on that day?

MR AZZARELLI: I don’t know. 10

MR KIRBY: Can you please explain to the Commissioner what the situation is in

terms of crew movements on and off the vessel.

MR AZZARELLI: On that day when I joined it? 15

MR KIRBY: Well, just generally. Do – is there a rotation where a crew member

will generally spend a certain amount of time on the vessel and then spend a certain

amount of time on leave? Do you have the situation - - -

20


MR KIRBY: - - - where at various times and at various ports you have crew

members coming and going?

25

MR AZZARELLI: No. No. I mean they join in each port ..... turn around, no.

MR KIRBY: How do crew get on the ship?

MR AZZARELLI: The agent ..... on board and turn around all the – with the bus. 30

MR KIRBY: And how often do crew come on the ship?

MR AZZARELLI: Usually, the big one is every turnaround to Sydney and

sometime on – on ports like – not necessary on the turnaround day. 35

MR KIRBY: So what’s a turnaround day? Is that at the end of a particular cruise

and before the beginning of the next cruise?

MR AZZARELLI: Correct. 40

MR KIRBY: How long are – well, the tour of New Zealand which was a round trip

from Sydney that ended on the 8th of March; how long was that cruise?

MR AZZARELLI: Around 10 days. 10 or 11 days. 45


MR KIRBY

MR KIRBY: And do you know whether you received crew, that is, new crew

embarked on that day in Sydney on the 8th of March?


5

MR KIRBY: You don’t know or they didn’t?

MR AZZARELLI: I don’t know.

MR KIRBY: Do you have responsibility as crew captain for the embarkation and 10

disembarkation of the crew?

MR AZZARELLI: No. No, sir.

MR KIRBY: So is your role really just a navigational role as second in command to 15

the commodore?


MR KIRBY: Just excuse me for a moment, Mr Azzarelli. 20

MR AZZARELLI: Yes.

MR KIRBY: Commissioner, I don’t have any further questions for this witness?

25

COMMISSIONER: Mr Azzarelli, as staff captain, were you involved in any

communication between the ship and shore during the evening of the 18th of March

and the early morning of the 19th of March concerning the ship’s intention to

disembark passengers on the 19th of March?

30


COMMISSIONER: Did you have any communications during that same period

with any employee of Carnival wherever they were concerning the intended

disembarkation of the passengers in Sydney on the 19th? 35

MR AZZARELLI: No, sir. No.

COMMISSIONER: No. Thank you.

40

MR KIRBY: Commissioner, there is one further question which has come to mind,

if I could just ask Mr Azzarelli it.


45

MR KIRBY: Mr Azzarelli, there was a phone call made to Sydney VTS; do you

know who I’m referring to when I say VTS?


MR KIRBY

MR AZZARELLI: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: To Vessel Traffic Services.

MR AZZARELLI: Yes. 5

MR KIRBY: There was a phone call made in the early moments of the 19th of

March from - - -

MR AZZARELLI: Yes. 10

MR KIRBY: - - - I understand, the bridge with the doctor present explaining,

amongst other things, the medical disembarkations which had been ordered. You

were present, weren’t you, at that phone call?

15

MR AZZARELLI: With the VTS?

MR KIRBY: Yes. Between the doctor, Ilse Von Watzdorf, and VTS.

MR AZZARELLI: For the MARS declaration? 20

COMMISSIONER: Yes. That’s right. The MARS declaration. Yes.

MR AZZARELLI: Yes. Because – because I remember VTS call the bridge. They

looking for MARS declaration. 25

COMMISSIONER: Okay.

MR AZZARELLI: Which ..... that information.

30


MR AZZARELLI: .....

MR KIRBY: Do you have any recollection of what the doctor told VTS was the 35

reason for the medical disembarkation?

MR AZZARELLI: No.

MR KIRBY: Nothing further. 40

COMMISSIONER: Ms Furness, will you have enough time to complete your

questioning of this witness this afternoon?

MS FURNESS: Look, I’ll consider my notes, Commissioner, but having considered 45

them, I think I have no questions. But thank you for the opportunity.


COMMISSIONER: Mr McLure?

MR McLURE: ..... Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Azzarelli, thank you very much for your trouble. Sorry to 5

have taken you away from your duties. Thank you for your attendance. You are

discharged.

MR AZZARELLI: Thank you, sir.

10

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.48 pm]

MR BEASLEY: We might take a short break, Commissioner, while the next 15

witness comes and discuss whether we - - -

COMMISSIONER: Can someone let me know when it’s set up.

20

ADJOURNED [2.48 pm]

RESUMED [3.02 pm]

25

MR BEASLEY: Yes, Commissioner, so the one remaining witness isn’t available

till tomorrow. He was told tomorrow so I understand you’re going to adjourn till 10

am tomorrow.

30

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. The hearing will resume at 10 o’clock tomorrow

with the intention of taking remotely the evidence of Mr Verwall. Is that correct?

MR BEASLEY: That is right.

35

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. I can indicate for the purposes of the organisation

of the ship’s activities that it’s not expected that that will take very long at all. Thank

you. We’ll adjourn till then.

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. 40

MATTER ADJOURNED at 3.03 pm UNTIL THURSDAY, 23 APRIL 2020


Index of Witness Events

ILSE VON WATZDORF, AFFIRMED P-7

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR BEASLEY SC P-7

EXAMINATION BY MS FURNESS SC P-101

THE WITNESS WITHDREW P-106

SEBASTIANO AZZARELLI, CALLED P-107

SEBASTIANO AZZARELLI, SWORN P-108

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR KIRBY P-108

THE WITNESS WITHDREW P-113

Index of Exhibits and MFIs

Documents

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS · 22/04/2020 · TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS O/N H-1188257 MR B. WALKER SC, Commissioner IN THE MATTER OF A SPECIAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO THE RUBY PRINCESS