Transcript of Proceedings - Rincon meeting

8/9/2019 Transcript of Proceedings - Rincon meeting

1/96

·In The M atter Of :

·In Re: Pa lmetto Pipel ine

________________________________________________________

Transcr ipt of Proceed ings

M arch 31, 2015

________________________________________________________

Tiffany A l ley G lobal Report ing & Video

730 P eachtree St reet NE

Suite 470

At lanta, GA 3 0308

770.343.9696

www.t i f fanyal ley.com


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· · · · · · · · · ·PUBLIC HEARING

IN RE:· PALMETTO PIPELINE

· · · · · · ·TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

· · · · · · · · · ·March 31, 2015

· · · · · · · · · · ·5:15 p.m.

· · · · · · · · ·2887 Ebenezer Road

· · · · · · · · · Rincon, Georgia

· · · · · ·Tracy A. Williams, B-2168, RPR


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·1· · · · · · · · · APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:

·2· ·On behalf of Kinder Morgan:

·3· · · · · · ANDREW MUTTER, ESQ.

·4· · · · · · King & Spalding

·5· · · · · · 1180 Peachtree Street, N.E.

·6· · · · · · Atlanta, Georgia· 30309-3521

·7· · · · · · (404) 572-4705

·8· · · · · · ALAN FORE

·9· · · · · · BRIAN S. WILLIAMS, P.E.

10· · · · · · Kinder Morgan

11· · · · · · Suite 450

12· · · · · · 1000 Windward Concourse

13· · · · · · Alpharetta, Georgia· 30005

14· · · · · · (770) 751-4248

15· ·On behalf of the Georgia Department of

16· · · Transportation:

17· · · · · · MICHAEL J. BOLDEN, States Utility Engineer

18· · · · · · Georgia Department of Transportation

19· · · · · · 10th Floor

20· · · · · · 600 West Peachtree Street, N.W.

21· · · · · · Atlanta, Georgia· 30308

22· · · · · · (404) 631-1354

23

24

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In Re: Palmetto Pipeline Transcript of Proceedings

770-343-9696 Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline Transcript of Proceedings 03/31/2015

770-343-9696 Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video Page 2


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·1· · · · · · MR. MUTTER:· We thank you for coming out

·2· ·and participating in this open house.· I'm Andrew

·3· ·Mutter.· I'm with King & Spalding, and we represent

·4· ·Kinder Morgan in this project.

·5· · · · · · The purpose of tonight is twofold:· The

·6· ·first is for y'all to hear a bit about the project,

·7· ·the pipeline.· Kinder Morgan is going to present for

·8· ·about 15 to 20 minutes and explain to you the

·9· ·details.· Then we're going to open it up for

10· ·comments.

11· · · · · · And we do have a court reporter here that

12· ·is going to be taking your comments.· And I would

13· ·just like -- tonight is an opportunity for you to

14· ·come forward and express your opinions or ask your

15· ·questions about the project.· Kinder Morgan will

16· ·answer them to the best of their ability, and that

17· ·will all be taken down by the court reporter.· That

18· ·transcript then will go to the Georgia Department of

19· ·Transportation, and they will consider that amongst

20· ·other comments made throughout this process in

21· ·evaluating Kinder Morgan's application for a

22· ·certificate of public need and necessity to build the

23· ·pipeline.

24· · · · · · So Kinder Morgan will also stay afterwards.

25· ·Some of your questions will often be very specific






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·1· ·and need sort of more one-on-one conversation.· If

·2· ·you have those kinds of questions or you want to

·3· ·follow up after we close down the formal comment

·4· ·period, if you'll come, Kinder Morgan will be here

·5· ·and happy to try to answer your questions afterwards.

·6· ·So I'm now going to hand it off to Kinder Morgan.

·7· · · · · · MR. FORE:· Thank you very much.· I'm Alan

·8· ·Fore.· I'm vice president of Kinder Morgan.· With me

·9· ·tonight is Brian Williams, who is our project

10· ·director and engineer.· And we have some folks in the

11· ·back from our right-of-way team.· You all want to

12· ·wave back there?· Those are land agents, land

13· ·managers, and also one of our other project managers

14· ·in the yellow there.

15· · · · · · So as we mentioned, we're going to do a

16· ·formal presentation, question and answer, but then

17· ·we'll also be around after the formal part of the

18· ·meeting to -- we've got some detailed maps up here,

19· ·and answer any individual questions that you might

20· ·have.· So feel free to look for any of the folks that

21· ·I mentioned, and we'll be happy to talk to you

22· ·one-on-one as well.

23· · · · · · What we wanted to do is to talk a little

24· ·bit about Kinder Morgan and what we do and then talk

25· ·about our proposed Palmetto project.· This is the






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·1· ·sixth meeting that we've had related to -- a public

·2· ·meeting, that is, related to the Palmetto project.

·3· ·And they've been very good meetings, well-attended,

·4· ·like tonight.· And we've learned a lot from them, and

·5· ·we're looking forward to another interactive night

·6· ·tonight where we can learn from you and talk to you

·7· ·about what we believe is a good project, a good

·8· ·proposed route.· But through public dialogue and

·9· ·discussion, we think we can do even better.

10· · · · · · So a little bit about the company, this map

11· ·shows our system footprint across the country.

12· ·Kinder Morgan is a transportation company.· We

13· ·transport energy from one place to another, much like

14· ·a toll.· So we don't own the product or drill the

15· ·product, for the most part.· We just transport from

16· ·one place to another.

17· · · · · · And that's what all these lines here

18· ·represent on this map.· There's about 45 states we

19· ·transport natural gas, refined product.· That's

20· ·gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, ethenol, CO2 are the

21· ·three main areas of energy product that we transport.

22· ·So 80,000 miles of pipe across the United States,

23· ·North America transport energy.

24· · · · · · We also store energy.· We have 180

25· ·terminals across the country.· Tank farms, you all






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·1· ·see those, where energy is stored.· And we handle

·2· ·about 200 different types of bulk product as well.

·3· ·And so transportation storage is our business.

·4· · · · · · The Plantation pipeline is part of our

·5· ·system.· Let's go back to this map.· So you can see

·6· ·the Plantation system here in blue and here in black.

·7· ·As part of what we're talking about here tonight is

·8· ·the Plantation system is a refined products pipeline

·9· ·that has been transporting products to Georgia, the

10· ·southeast and all the way up to Virginia and

11· ·Washington D.C. for many, many years, 50 years.· And

12· ·it's one of the major providers of the product to the

13· ·region.

14· · · · · · What does that mean?· Well, Hartsfield

15· ·International Airport, we provide jet fuel to that

16· ·airport.· Most of the military bases along the route

17· ·receive jet fuel from this pipeline.· Gas stations

18· ·where you all get gas, a lot of -- again, that

19· ·gasoline comes from the Plantation pipeline.· So it's

20· ·a major source of energy for the region.

21· · · · · · But to get energy from one place to

22· ·another, you need pipelines.· So what we're talking

23· ·about for our proposed new project is the expansion

24· ·of the system, extending this system into Georgia

25· ·and, ultimately, into Florida.· We'll talk about that






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·1· ·for the bulk of our presentation tonight.

·2· · · · · · So, again, back to the Plantation system

·3· ·here.· The pipeline is transporting product all the

·4· ·way up to Reagan National delivering gasoline and

·5· ·diesel to various customers who distribute it to gas

·6· ·stations across the footprint.

·7· · · · · · That black line is now red.· And the green

·8· ·line is what we're talking about here tonight, the

·9· ·Palmetto project, which is going to begin in Belton,

10· ·South Carolina, transport product in an underground

11· ·pipeline, dropping product and delivering product in

12· ·Augusta and in Savannah and then ultimately in

13· ·Jacksonville.· We believe up to 60 percent of the

14· ·products from this line will be servicing Georgia.

15· ·So about 60 percent of what we're transporting in

16· ·this line will be delivered to Georgia, which means

17· ·customers -- our customers will then be delivering

18· ·that to gas stations and providers of energy gasoline

19· ·in the region.

20· · · · · · It's important -- that's an important note

21· ·because we're often asked about what is the local

22· ·benefit of a project like this?· Well, the big

23· ·benefit is gas delivery, gasoline delivery, to our

24· ·customers, which then are delivered to distribution

25· ·centers, gasoline stations.






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·1· · · · · · We have a long history and footprint here

·2· ·in Georgia.· This represents our current access.

·3· ·It's also important for everyone to know when we talk

·4· ·about a company like Kinder Morgan is talking about

·5· ·what we're proposing to do, a good indicator of what

·6· ·we're going to do is what we already do.· And these

·7· ·systems here represent various pipeline

·8· ·infrastructures that we currently have in Georgia

·9· ·operating now.

10· · · · · · So our Plantation system that I mentioned

11· ·previously in the blue and the other brown lines are

12· ·natural gas systems transporting natural gas, point

13· ·being we are a long and successful operator here in

14· ·Georgia transporting products similar to what we're

15· ·transporting now and also other products, a long

16· ·history of pipeline operation very similar to what

17· ·we're proposing now.

18· · · · · · About 85 counties, 3,000 miles of pipe will

19· ·be part of this or part of our current system.· We

20· ·would be adding another roughly 360 miles on top of

21· ·that with our existing system.· That's not in

22· ·Georgia.· That's overall.· A little closer look at

23· ·what we have in the state and also the taxes that we

24· ·pay currently in the state of Georgia.

25· · · · · · From a regulatory perspective, there is






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·1· ·extensive oversight of a pipeline project by the

·2· ·state and federal agency.· The Army Corps of

·3· ·Engineers, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the U.S.

·4· ·Fish and Wildlife Service, the Georgia Department of

·5· ·Natural Resources, Transportation and other entities

·6· ·will all have various permitting roles on the

·7· ·project.

·8· · · · · · So we're just in the phase now of beginning

·9· ·our permit preparation, planning to file to our

10· ·permits over the summer.· But what we are talking

11· ·about tonight, the Palmetto project, is a proposed

12· ·project that we have proposing to service customers

13· ·to deliver gasoline and diesel that ultimately will

14· ·be permitted, or not, by these state and federal

15· ·agencies.· So that's important to know.

16· · · · · · We're just in the early phases of preparing

17· ·for permits.· We have not filed yet for permits, but

18· ·we've had discussions with these agencies.· And as we

19· ·work over the next few months to further refine and

20· ·develop this project, that will be all taken into

21· ·consideration, including landowner discussions and

22· ·input we receive at meetings like tonight.· All will

23· ·be developed as part of our application so when we

24· ·file this summer, we'll have a refined, adjusted

25· ·route that we believe will be permissible by these






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·1· ·agencies.· Those are two key components of any

·2· ·project we develop.· Remember, we just transport the

·3· ·product.

·4· · · · · · But in order to do that -- this is a

·5· ·billion-dollar project -- we need to be sure that the

·6· ·project is necessary and that it's permissible.· The

·7· ·necessary part is customers signing up for long-term

·8· ·contracts to put product in the line.· What that

·9· ·means is that as soon as this pipeline is finished,

10· ·there are customers that are going to fill it up.

11· ·And they have -- what they do with us is pay us a fee

12· ·to transport.· It then eventually goes to the points

13· ·that we mentioned, Augusta, Savannah and

14· ·Jacksonville, for delivery to their customers.

15· · · · · · So you have to have the customer

16· ·commitments that will make certain that this pipeline

17· ·is actually going to be used.· That's necessary for

18· ·us, from a commercial perspective.· It's also

19· ·necessary for the regulators to determine if there's

20· ·a public need for this project, or ultimately that

21· ·determination.

22· · · · · · And the second piece is to design a project

23· ·that can meet the very vigorous standards of the

24· ·agencies that are part of the project, South

25· ·Carolina, Georgia, Florida, as well as the federal






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·1· ·government.· And we're, at this point, in the final

·2· ·stages of developing and defining the project and

·3· ·apply for those permits, as I mentioned earlier.

·4· · · · · · Briefly on our overall schedule -- and I'll

·5· ·turn it over to Brian, our project manager, to talk

·6· ·about the specifics of the project.· From a

·7· ·scheduling perspective, I mentioned the permit

·8· ·preparation phase that we're in right now.· So that

·9· ·will be ongoing for some time.· The earliest you

10· ·would see some construction activity on our project

11· ·is the spring of 2016.· And we would, based upon our

12· ·current projections, have a project that would be in

13· ·service, that means flowing product, in the summer of

14· ·2017.

15· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· All right.· Thank you, Alan.

16· ·Can everybody hear me in the back?· Very good.· Thank

17· ·you.· Let's talk a little bit about the details for

18· ·this Palmetto project.· Alan mentioned that it's

19· ·roughly a billion-dollar project.· The total length

20· ·of the new pipeline construction is 360 miles, and

21· ·about 200 of that will be in the state of Georgia.

22· · · · · · The pipeline is going to be sized to handle

23· ·up to 167,000 barrels a day capacity.· We know that

24· ·starting out, it won't be running at that level.· It

25· ·will be a somewhat lower number initially.· But as






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·1· ·Alan mentioned, we have sufficient customer

·2· ·commitments already to make the project economically

·3· ·viable.

·4· · · · · · Alan showed an earlier slide about the

·5· ·Plantation pipeline system, and there's some work

·6· ·that has to be done on that system to modify it to

·7· ·provide the additional capacity to feed this new

·8· ·pipeline.· So there will be about 14 or 15

·9· ·facilities, existing facilities, along that

10· ·Plantation route from Louisiana all the way up to the

11· ·Carolinas that are modified to support this project.

12· · · · · · And for the Palmetto project, Alan

13· ·mentioned that the starting point is Belton, South

14· ·Carolina.· There will be some additional facilities

15· ·built along this pipeline route beginning in Belton.

16· ·In Belton, there will be a tank farm, which receives

17· ·gasoline and diesel from the Plantation system.· And

18· ·it will be an ethanol-received capacity where ethanol

19· ·is brought in by rail.· And in front of those tanks,

20· ·there will be a pump station built in the Belton area

21· ·right adjacent to the tanks that will be the origin

22· ·point for the Palmetto pipeline.

23· · · · · · There will be three additional pump

24· ·stations built on the pipeline roughly at 90-mile

25· ·station spacers.· And we're finalizing those






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·1· ·locations right now.· And that will be sorted out

·2· ·here in the next few weeks or a month.· Those

·3· ·facilities typically occupy about 2 to 5 acres.· And

·4· ·the way Kinder Morgan likes to do those is we would

·5· ·go in and find a property owner who is agreeable to

·6· ·selling us that property so that the pump stations

·7· ·would be owned by Kinder Morgan and the land would be

·8· ·owned.

·9· · · · · · The rest of the pipeline route would be

10· ·built on easements that we would acquire from

11· ·individual property owners.· And we are seeking a

12· ·50-foot wide permanent easement.· And one of the

13· ·things we've done in siting this pipeline is try to

14· ·minimize the impact of the new pipeline.· And we've

15· ·done that by locating, collocating, this pipeline

16· ·alongside existing utilities.

17· · · · · · And they're located -- in South Carolina,

18· ·the line is adjacent to an existing pipeline

19· ·corridor.· In Georgia, once we cross the Savannah

20· ·river, we're anticipating paralleling and being right

21· ·adjacent to existing Georgia Power easements, most of

22· ·them around -- from the Savannah River to down about

23· ·this area is mostly Georgia Power, and then there's

24· ·some easement that we would anticipate being adjacent

25· ·to CSX railroad.· And then before reaching the






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·1· ·Savannah area, we would anticipate collocating with

·2· ·the Cypress pipeline.· That's a natural gas pipeline

·3· ·that is owned formally by Southern National El Paso,

·4· ·and now Kinder Morgan.· And the Cypress pipeline

·5· ·would get us from the Savannah area down to a little

·6· ·bit west of Jacksonville.

·7· · · · · · Let's see, this is just a little more

·8· ·detailed about the route.· As Alan mentioned, for

·9· ·those of you who would like to see some pretty good

10· ·level detail, we have some aerial photos up here of

11· ·the pipeline of the proposed route drawn on those.

12· ·And if you would like to see how a route relates to a

13· ·particular piece of property of interest to you,

14· ·please up come after the question-and-answer session,

15· ·and we'll be glad to go over those for you.

16· · · · · · This is the proposed route through

17· ·Effingham County.· This is a little bit more detailed

18· ·about pipeline construction.· Let me back up and

19· ·state that the pipeline we're talking about would be

20· ·16-inch diameter.· It's made out of steel.

21· ·Typically, it's buried 4 feet deep.· So there's

22· ·4 feet of cover of dirt above the pipe itself.

23· · · · · · And this shows how pipelines are typically

24· ·installed beginning with -- beginning with the survey

25· ·effort.· And right now, we have some survey crews






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·1· ·that just began their work out in the field a few

·2· ·weeks ago.· And these folks are staking out the

·3· ·center line of the proposed route.· Following those

·4· ·crews, we have crews that have biologists, cultural

·5· ·resource experts, archaeologists and wetland experts

·6· ·to go along seeking -- you know, looking for signs of

·7· ·threatened or endangered species, wetlands and

·8· ·habitat issues, and we catalog all of those.· Again,

·9· ·part of that effort is minimizing the impact.· And

10· ·sometimes you run across things that cause us to

11· ·reroute as we learn about particular features,

12· ·whether they're terrain features or species features.

13· · · · · · We have an example of that down near

14· ·Sylvania where a few weeks ago, we learned about

15· ·Brier Creek Battlefield, and that was a reason that

16· ·we decided to reroute around that battlefield area.

17· · · · · · And this goes back to a point Alan made

18· ·earlier.· This is our preliminary route.· We expect

19· ·that there will be some adjustments made as we refine

20· ·the route.· Once survey is accomplished, there's

21· ·clearing and then the topsoil is pushed off to the

22· ·side so that we can use it as part of restoration. A

23· ·trench is cut.· Pipe is strung out along the

24· ·right-of-way and welded together and then lowered

25· ·into the ditch and backfilled.· And, ultimately, the






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·1· ·topsoil is spread again and the right-of-way is

·2· ·restored and reseeded as directed by the property

·3· ·owner, or in certain areas, it's depending on

·4· ·whatever the local native species of grass is and

·5· ·whatever else is growing in that area.

·6· · · · · · One question we've had come up in a few

·7· ·meetings is how do we cross waterways, like rivers,

·8· ·major creeks.· And what we propose to do on those

·9· ·crossings is we have to work through the U.S. Army

10· ·Corps of Engineers to have those permitted and where

11· ·the Corps grants us a permit to cross pipe by

12· ·horizontal directional drilling, this is the

13· ·technique we will use where we found that it is much

14· ·less invasive.

15· · · · · · Rather than just trenching straight across

16· ·a creek or a river, we back up from the banks some

17· ·distance and we set up what looks like just a giant

18· ·drilling rig at an angle going into the ground.

19· ·Using a spherical drill head, we're able to curve

20· ·that drill pipe as it goes under the waterway and

21· ·then comes out on the other side.· And this is just a

22· ·depiction of that.· Once the drill stream goes

23· ·through, the bore is reamed out and the pipe is

24· ·pulled in.

25· · · · · · This is what a restored right-of-way looks






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·1· ·like.· These are some operating pipelines that Kinder

·2· ·Morgan has in the state of Georgia.· And these are

·3· ·what those aboveground pump stations would look like.

·4· ·One thing that we do at Kinder Morgan is we recognize

·5· ·that the areas where we will be building these pump

·6· ·stations and installing the pipeline, we recognize

·7· ·those areas are clean right now and we want them to

·8· ·stay that way.

·9· · · · · · So one of the things we do is at these pump

10· ·stations, you can see -- and I may get this right by

11· ·the end of the evening on the controls.· You can see

12· ·that the pumping equipment and the valves are on a

13· ·concrete slab that has a curb around it.· And the

14· ·reason for that is if we ever have any drips, say

15· ·there's a threading connection that drips or a gasket

16· ·fails or something, we want to contain any petroleum

17· ·that would drip out so that we can clean it up rather

18· ·than have it go into the ground.· That's a commitment

19· ·that we started making several years ago, and this

20· ·has become our standard design for these pipelines.

21· · · · · · All right, Alan?

22· · · · · · MR. FORE:· So as part of the pipeline

23· ·construction project, we do anticipate significant

24· ·temporary construction jobs to be part of the

25· ·project, about 1200 construction jobs and about






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·1· ·28 full-time positions that will be part of this

·2· ·project.· So some of those will be local.· Some of

·3· ·those will be out of the area, depending on a

·4· ·particular skill.· But overall, based upon our

·5· ·experience, this will be the construction workforce

·6· ·and will be part of the project.· The taxes we're

·7· ·going to pay are going to be about $4.9 million a

·8· ·year in Georgia.· Those are property taxes ad valorem

·9· ·based upon the valuation of the access itself on the

10· ·pipe.· And it's about $850,000 would be in Effingham

11· ·County for the taxing bodies here.· And that's based

12· ·upon -- I think we've got 39 miles of pipe here,

13· ·roughly, Brian?

14· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Yes.

15· · · · · · MR. FORE:· So there's more distance here of

16· ·pipe than, I think, in any of the other counties in

17· ·Georgia; so you're at the higher end of the level on

18· ·tax revenue.· Now, those will go down over time.· But

19· ·there will be an annual payment, and that's what we

20· ·estimate it to be for the first year, about $850,000.

21· · · · · · We mentioned, too, the delivery product.

22· ·And that's really the overall public benefit, if you

23· ·will, of this project is the additional supply

24· ·delivered.· Most of the product coming to the region

25· ·is coming from offshore.· This is going to be a






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·1· ·pipeline system that will assist not only with

·2· ·reliability but additional sources in the case of

·3· ·weather events, not just here, but in Houston and

·4· ·other places in the Gulf.· The weather events can

·5· ·impact product delivery to the region.· And,

·6· ·ultimately, we believe will have a positive impact on

·7· ·prices, just like if you had one gas station and you

·8· ·had three, you're probably going to have an impact on

·9· ·the other two lowering prices.

10· · · · · · Right now, gas prices are at a reasonable

11· ·level.· They won't always stay that way.· I think we

12· ·all know that.· Our role isn't to determine prices;

13· ·our role is in transporting product.· But we believe,

14· ·and our customers believe, that that's going to be a

15· ·long-term, lasting, positive effect of this project.

16· · · · · · We do anticipate working closely with

17· ·emergency responders and others to make sure, first

18· ·of all, they're educated about our products, our

19· ·systems and what we do and how to manage those assets

20· ·and working together with them.· We also partner with

21· ·those organizations in providing the training and

22· ·equipment that they need to do their job.

23· · · · · · And we know that our project and our

24· ·systems do have impacts.· We're well aware of that.

25· ·And as I said, look at the company on its overall






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·1· ·track record of the 3,000 miles of pipe we have

·2· ·currently in Georgia and what we do and how we

·3· ·operate those systems.· And I also say at meetings

·4· ·like this that it's not what companies say at the

·5· ·beginning of the project.· It's what other says about

·6· ·them at the end of the project.· And I think our

·7· ·record here in Georgia and across the country is a

·8· ·good one, not perfect, we can always improve.· But

·9· ·our folks that are working on this project and work

10· ·for this company want to work with you to make sure

11· ·that if there are issues or concerns, we talk about

12· ·them upfront, we're transparent about the process,

13· ·and we work through them.· And we look forward to

14· ·having that dialogue here tonight.· Questions?

15· · · · · · MR. MUTTER:· So the next part of the night

16· ·is going to be the formal comment period.· And,

17· ·again, we have a court reporter here to take your

18· ·comments.· And just for her getting an accurate

19· ·record and being able to hear you clearly, I'm going

20· ·to ask that you come up.· We have a microphone, and

21· ·you can turn and face the audience and make your

22· ·comment or ask a question to Kinder Morgan.

23· · · · · · So I will go ahead and open it up for

24· ·comments.· There's also going to be a sign-in sheet

25· ·you might have seen on the way in.· You can write





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·1· ·comments there.· You can always mail in comments to

·2· ·the Georgia DOT or King & Spalding directly as well

·3· ·as in paper.

·4· · · · · · So if you'll raise your hand, I'll call on

·5· ·you and ask you to come up.· We do ask that you say

·6· ·your name and where you're from so that we know who

·7· ·you are, and that will help with the comments being

·8· ·processed.· So we'll go with this gentleman and then

·9· ·this lady.

10· · · · · · MR. HUGHES:· First of all, I want to thank

11· ·you for the opportunity to speak.· And let me also

12· ·say that I appreciate the benefit of oil and gas

13· ·exportation and distribution.· It keeps us from being

14· ·a third-world country here in the United States.

15· · · · · · But I'd also like to -- my name is Brett

16· ·Hughes, by the way.· I'm from Walterboro, South

17· ·Carolina.· And, first of all, I would just like to

18· ·bring something to light that might not be completely

19· ·known.

20· · · · · · When you construct 50 miles of pipeline

21· ·through timberland, what you have done then is you

22· ·caused a loss of 22,000 tons of timber growth over a

23· ·ten-year period.· That's an average, and that doesn't

24· ·stop after ten years.· It continues in perpetuity

25· ·because you don't grow any trees on that pipeline





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·1· ·right-of-way.

·2· · · · · · And what I would like to say is there's

·3· ·about a 400-foot wide power and gas line

·4· ·right-of-way, which is very close to what y'all are

·5· ·talking about.· And it's already taken 13 acres of

·6· ·family property.· You could probably put -- you could

·7· ·put this pipeline and probably a couple more

·8· ·underneath that power line right-of-way, okay?· I've

·9· ·got a photo that shows the gas line buried right

10· ·underneath the power line right-of-way, okay?

11· · · · · · Now -- and you can go down here on

12· ·Highway 21, and you can see a railroad track.· And

13· ·you can see a pipeline, you know, gas pipeline buried

14· ·underneath the power line right-of-way.· So I would

15· ·just like to -- you know, they construct -- there's

16· ·probably two dozen tunnels that bring cars and trains

17· ·in and out of New York City underneath the river

18· ·every day.· And they built a bridge to Key West,

19· ·Florida.· And you can't make me believe that you

20· ·cannot utilize these existing openings already to

21· ·construct this power line -- I mean, to construct

22· ·this gas line right-of-way.

23· · · · · · And I don't know why you need to clear more

24· ·timberland.· We won't even get into the part about

25· ·how it provides a freeway for four-wheelers to





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·1· ·trespass on somebody's property because you can't

·2· ·shut a gas line right-of-way off from somebody using

·3· ·it then.

·4· · · · · · But my point would be that I don't see why

·5· ·this company can't access the Georgia Power and CETCO

·6· ·right-of-way and that El Paso gas line right-of-way.

·7· ·There's plenty of room to construct this power line,

·8· ·and you won't have to clear an acre of timber.

·9· · · · · · So that -- and my only -- my guess would be

10· ·that Georgia Power has a whole building full of

11· ·lawyers that you would have to go through versus a

12· ·private landowner.· So that's my comment, and I thank

13· ·you.

14· · · · · · (Applause.)

15· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Thank you for that comment

16· ·because we do -- we're very sensitive to that.· And

17· ·there are some great examples where you see joint

18· ·occupancy of right-of-ways.· The absolute best one I

19· ·can think of is in Houston, Texas, a little south of

20· ·Intercontinental Airport.· If any of you folks have

21· ·seen, there's about three power lines in the same

22· ·square as about a dozen pipelines, and we would love

23· ·to be able to have a joint occupancy of easements.

24· ·And we are having some discussions with the folks

25· ·that have those easements, but I can't promise you





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·1· ·what the outcome will be.· But wherever we can,

·2· ·that's what we would like to do.

·3· · · · · · MR. CANTALINE:· My name is Jeff Cantaline.

·4· ·I'm from Eden, Georgia.· I really don't have a

·5· ·problem with the pipeline, I really don't, as long as

·6· ·you're trying to stay within the easement that's

·7· ·already there or close enough to it.

·8· · · · · · But the problem I have is trying to use

·9· ·eminent domain because eminent domain is meant for

10· ·necessary items.· The only necessary items any of us

11· ·really need is we need a place to be, we need food,

12· ·we need water, and we need shelter.· That's pretty

13· ·much it.· We need air to breathe, and that's the only

14· ·things that eminent domain should be allowed to

15· ·enter.

16· · · · · · Now, I just used your numbers off of your

17· ·sign said that you made approximately $26.3 million

18· ·with 346 people, and that comes out to about $77,000

19· ·a piece.· That's individuals and the average.· That's

20· ·$10,000 more a year than I make.· I have to pay

21· ·taxes.· I had to buy my property.· Why do you not

22· ·have to buy your property because you're the only one

23· ·benefitting from it?

24· · · · · · (Applause.)

25· · · · · · You are making money with those (inaudible)





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·1· ·through our county, and that's fine.· But if you're

·2· ·making money off of it, we're not making money off of

·3· ·it because you just took our land and you knew it.

·4· ·And we still have to pay taxes.· So that's my big

·5· ·problem is trying to use eminent domain for this

·6· ·purpose.

·7· · · · · · (Applause.)

·8· · · · · · MR. FORE:· I appreciate your comment, and

·9· ·our process of land negotiation starts with our land

10· ·agents who are represented in the back.· And at the

11· ·end of the day, there's usually a handful of

12· ·landowners that we can't reach agreement with. I

13· ·think right now, we're only 5 percent of the folks

14· ·that we've talked to so far that we haven't at least

15· ·been able to get survey permission from.

16· · · · · · So that's positive.· That's not everyone,

17· ·and we're going to work on every individual landowner

18· ·to make sure that we have a successful negotiation.

19· ·And as a company, we don't have that authority.· It's

20· ·an authority that is granted through a state process

21· ·that grants the authority if the state process

22· ·shows -- and he'll talk a little bit about this in

23· ·more detail from a legal perspective -- but shows

24· ·that there is public purpose and public need for the

25· ·project.· That's a determination that has not been





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·1· ·yet made.

·2· · · · · · These meetings like this are part of it.

·3· ·And there's another hearing coming up in a couple of

·4· ·weeks that will be part of that process, but that's

·5· ·one step, and there are other steps that are

·6· ·involved.

·7· · · · · · So all that has to be shown, and it's on

·8· ·the company to be showing what that purpose of the

·9· ·project is.· So what we can commit to is to having

10· ·the same type of relationships we have with

11· ·landowners across our footprint, our 3,000 miles in

12· ·the state and, so far, having a very successful

13· ·initial discussion of landowners over this area.

14· · · · · · MR. MUTTER:· And Alan, in many ways, summed

15· ·up the eminent domain process and what it's supposed

16· ·to be doing.· We are going to be in the process in

17· ·order to show that this project is within public need

18· ·and necessity.· We're going through the process to

19· ·show to the Department of Natural Resources that this

20· ·is a reasonable and responsible use of Georgia

21· ·resources.· And they will make that determination.

22· · · · · · Now, the reason why eminent domain is used

23· ·and why the state legislature decided to create the

24· ·process is the recognition that there are these

25· ·big-scaled projects that can be sounded by -- you





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·1· ·know, hold out for the individual people who don't

·2· ·want to be within the negotiation framework that

·3· ·makes this thing possible.· And that's a decision of

·4· ·the Georgia legislature, and that's the process that

·5· ·we're using.· And, again, we still have to prove,

·6· ·just in the same kind of process that Georgia itself

·7· ·would have to prove, that this is within the public

·8· ·use.· So that's the nature of this eminent domain

·9· ·process.· So I think -- yes, for our next comment.

10· · · · · · MS. MARKESTEYN:· Thank you.· I'm Emily

11· ·Markesteyn.· I'm the Ogeechee Riverkeeper.· And I

12· ·think you're exactly correct in that you have to --

13· ·the burden of proof of is on you to show the need.

14· ·And, unfortunately, all we've heard is that your

15· ·customers need this pipeline.· I don't think anyone

16· ·in this room has told you personally that we need it,

17· ·and we're the public.· And I think that your

18· ·customers are dictating to you how to run pipeline

19· ·through our wetlands and our private property.· And,

20· ·unfortunately, that's not public need.

21· · · · · · And I would like to know if you responded

22· ·to the DOT letter that has asked you for more

23· ·information on the public necessity.· I just really

24· ·don't think that anyone here is wanting to jeopardize

25· ·our private property, our wetlands, our natural





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·1· ·resources, everything that we hold dear here in

·2· ·southeast Georgia, for the benefit of Jacksonville,

·3· ·quite frankly, because that's where I feel like it's

·4· ·going.· I think that you're just teeing off to

·5· ·Savannah to say that Georgia has a need.

·6· · · · · · And I would like to know if you have the

·7· ·answer on what the current supply in the Savannah

·8· ·market might be in barrels per day because you're

·9· ·saying that Georgia is going to take 60 percent of

10· ·167,000 barrels per day.· That's over 100,000 barrels

11· ·a day.· I could be wrong, but I don't think Savannah

12· ·is anywhere near that, and we don't need it.

13· · · · · · And I think there's somebody else at the

14· ·very first public hearing that said he doesn't have

15· ·an issue driving up to the gas station to fill up any

16· ·of his cars.· And I don't see that, either.· So I

17· ·really just feel like this is not necessary.· And I

18· ·appreciate your position as a company and as a

19· ·business and that you are only the transporter of

20· ·this material.· But when you say public, it needs to

21· ·be public, not your customers.· Thank you.

22· · · · · · (Applause.)

23· · · · · · MR. FORE:· Thank you for your comment.

24· ·Good to see you again.· I'm sure we'll see you again.

25· ·Everybody drove here in a car today, and they put gas





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·1· ·in the tank.· So indirectly, whether you're a direct

·2· ·customer to this pipeline or not, you're using the

·3· ·gas that pipelines like this delivered.· And right

·4· ·now, it's not a crisis because refined product prices

·5· ·are low; but they're not going to stay low.· And we

·6· ·all -- a lot of us are old enough, I assume, to

·7· ·remember when there were shortages of this product.

·8· · · · · · So this is real.· It's not imagined.· We

·9· ·don't build pipelines and hope that someone might use

10· ·them.· We build them for the customers who have

11· ·specific delivery offloads for purposes of getting

12· ·gas to you.· This is not an export project.· None of

13· ·this product will go anywhere but domestically.· It's

14· ·domestic product transported domestically, used

15· ·domestically.

16· · · · · · And we said before, 60 percent of that is

17· ·staying here in Georgia.· Yes, Jacksonville is

18· ·getting some.· South Carolina is getting some.· But

19· ·60 percent of it is staying here, Augusta and

20· ·Savannah, which means trucks, it's going to the

21· ·tanks, delivering it to the gas stations that you

22· ·will use to fill up your tanks.· That's real.· It's

23· ·not imagined.· It's real.

24· · · · · · So we can have a discussion about the

25· ·overall system of transportation or the overall need





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·1· ·for energy, but there's no question these projects

·2· ·are regulated and based on firm commitments and

·3· ·customer need, which leads to the public purpose.

·4· ·That's our business, and that's what we do.· Again,

·5· ·it's not building something and hope someone might

·6· ·have a reason for using it someday.· It means when

·7· ·July '17 comes around, this pipeline is going to be

·8· ·virtually full of product shipping to customers

·9· ·primarily here in Georgia.

10· · · · · · MR. MUTTER:· Further comments?· In the

11· ·front and then we can go here.

12· · · · · · MS. ALLAN:· Hi, again.· KC Allan, I'm a

13· ·reporter from Keep Chatham Beautiful, which covers a

14· ·lot of area.· So can you not -- do you agree that oil

15· ·demand in Georgia and Florida has, over the last few

16· ·years, diminished at all.· Professional projections

17· ·say it will continue to diminish.· And if so, what is

18· ·the need for dumping additional barrels of oil in

19· ·these two states?· In fact, across the nation, it's

20· ·diminishing, in providing fuel.

21· · · · · · MR. FORE:· Well, again, we're talking

22· ·about -- well, I think you're talking about -- I

23· ·don't want to speak for you.· But you're asking about

24· ·whether there's an overall high need for gasoline,

25· ·jet fuel, whatever it might be.· Certainly in





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·1· ·different parts of the country, there's a lot of

·2· ·different energy uses going on right now.· We're

·3· ·relying more on renewables in some areas.· Natural

·4· ·gas is becoming a fuel supply source for trucks.

·5· ·Cities are transporting them as transit systems to

·6· ·natural gas.· So all of that is happening.

·7· · · · · · But, again, our process here is to

·8· ·determine whether customers -- those are companies

·9· ·that you well know that have gas stations -- do they

10· ·want additional supply.· And they're in business,

11· ·too.· So they're not going to sign up for long-term

12· ·commitments on a project that they don't think they

13· ·can use because they're going to be paying for that.

14· ·And, ultimately, that's going to affect their

15· ·business.

16· · · · · · So this is all part of a very detailed

17· ·analysis going on in the industry of what product is

18· ·needed, and they're not just saying they need it in

19· ·2017.· They're signing up for a long-term commitment

20· ·to ship product on this line.· No doubt over the next

21· ·several years, 10, 20 years, there is going to be a

22· ·variation in what type of product is used and where

23· ·it's used and how it's used.

24· · · · · · But what we're being told and what our

25· ·customers are saying by signing up is that this type





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·1· ·of pipeline system is needed.· We've been looking at

·2· ·a project like this for a very long time.· And we

·3· ·haven't built it because it hasn't crossed that

·4· ·threshold.

·5· · · · · · Like I said at the beginning, our projects

·6· ·take two things.· You've got to have commercial

·7· ·viability and you have to have your permitability.

·8· ·And we couldn't get the commercial viability because

·9· ·the companies wouldn't sign up.· Now they are.· So

10· ·they're making a decision, and these are companies

11· ·that are in the business of distributing gasoline to

12· ·you.· And they're making the decision to sign up for

13· ·this pipeline.· They may well, and certainly will,

14· ·have other sources as well.· Most of the gasoline

15· ·comes offshore.· I'm sure that will continue to some

16· ·extent.· This will be another source for them.

17· · · · · · But that's how these projects are done.

18· ·And that's, again, the determination of this whole

19· ·public need process is what is the company, in this

20· ·case, Palmetto, Kinder Morgan, what are they showing,

21· ·how are they showing the public need?· A big part of

22· ·that is going to be showing the customers their part

23· ·of the project.

24· · · · · · MS. COLLIER:· Claudia Collier.· I'm from

25· ·south Effingham, Bloomingdale.· I see you have these





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·1· ·job creations on your list to help justify public

·2· ·need.· I would like more details.· I see you estimate

·3· ·approximately 1200 temporary jobs to construct the

·4· ·pipeline.

·5· · · · · · My question is:· Will you be providing

·6· ·training for pipeline crews locally here in

·7· ·Effingham, or will you be using crews out of Texas

·8· ·and the west that you've used before?· And can we

·9· ·have access to check and report on this once you

10· ·start?

11· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· All right.· That was a

12· ·pretty good, detailed question.· Thank you.· And we

13· ·are anticipating about 1200 construction jobs on this

14· ·project.· And those will be spread out from Baton

15· ·Rouge, Louisiana, up to the Carolinas, and then down

16· ·along the new construction project, the new pipeline

17· ·project.

18· · · · · · We anticipate that there will be some local

19· ·labor piping.· Whenever we see cross-country pipeline

20· ·projects, we see there are a handful of these

21· ·companies -- and as you're aware, most of those, you

22· ·probably are aware, are based either out of Texas or

23· ·Oklahoma.· Those are kind of the center of the

24· ·universe for the pipeline world.

25· · · · · · And what we will probably -- what we





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·1· ·anticipate seeing is that the crew superintendents

·2· ·and the foremen and a lot of the high-level knowledge

·3· ·and supervision and direction is going to come with

·4· ·those contractors.· The other thing we see, though,

·5· ·is that usually there will be some local hires to

·6· ·make for the laborers.· You know, there's a lot of

·7· ·manual labor-type work that goes along a pipeline

·8· ·right-of-way.· And, usually, we see that picked up

·9· ·local.

10· · · · · · These folks will also be contributing to

11· ·the local economy.· There will be people staying in

12· ·hotels and trailer parks or with their campers.· They

13· ·will be buying fuel along here.· They will be buying

14· ·food and other things.· So you will see a bump in the

15· ·local economy during the construction process.

16· · · · · · MS. COLLIER:· Can we check on it later?

17· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· The question was:· Can we

18· ·check on it later?· I'm not exactly sure what you

19· ·mean by "can we check on it."

20· · · · · · MS. COLLIER:· Can we see how many of your

21· ·employees are local and how many are not?

22· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Well, they're not my

23· ·employees, ma'am.· These folks are going to be

24· ·working for contractors that Kinder Morgan hires.· We

25· ·do not have construction crews on our Kinder Morgan





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·1· ·staff.· What we do anticipate doing, and may have

·2· ·already been mentioned, is adding about 28 jobs in

·3· ·the state of Georgia.· A handful of those jobs, there

·4· ·will be about seven of them, maybe eight, up in the

·5· ·Atlanta area.· There will be a couple of jobs in

·6· ·Belton, South Carolina.· There will be about four

·7· ·jobs added at the Savannah truck terminal.· There

·8· ·will be probably half a dozen jobs added to the pump

·9· ·station that's built, which will be somewhere north

10· ·of Savannah.· That's what we're determining

11· ·hydraulically.· And there will be another one or two

12· ·jobs probably just north of the Florida/Georgia line.

13· · · · · · MR. FORE:· What we can commit to doing is

14· ·once we have a contractor determined, we can make

15· ·certain that those will be tricounty and we

16· ·definitely will know -- let the economic development

17· ·folks know the contractor so that folks who might be

18· ·interested could reach out to that particular

19· ·contractor for potential jobs.

20· · · · · · Construction jobs are temporary.· Every

21· ·construction job that exists is temporary because

22· ·they serve as a purpose of construction, and then

23· ·they move on to another project.· It varies from

24· ·place to place where we do projects.· Sometimes it's

25· ·50 percent, 75 percent are local or out of town.· It





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·1· ·just depends on the particular project.

·2· · · · · · We hope and encourage that a local

·3· ·workforce will be significantly part of this project.

·4· ·But there are benefits either way, not just small

·5· ·benefits, either.· We have -- every time we develop a

·6· ·project, there are businesses, chambers of commerce,

·7· ·that are enthusiastic about these projects because

·8· ·the small businesses, from the local barber to the

·9· ·local diner, those see significant -- we're talking

10· ·millions and millions of dollars in lateral money

11· ·coming into the communities for over a year,

12· ·sometimes a two-year period.· And that's meaningful

13· ·to the small businesses that rely on that kind of

14· ·customer travel to stay in business.

15· · · · · · MR. MUTTER:· Let's make sure we get the

16· ·folks in the back.· We'll go with the lady back there

17· ·and then the gentleman right here.· And, again, if

18· ·you'll state your name.

19· · · · · · MS. BAMBACH:· My name is Dorothy Bambach.

20· ·I'm president of Ogeechee Audubon Society.· We are a

21· ·chapter of National Audubon, and we represent over

22· ·400 members, approximately half of the counties in

23· ·Georgia, that your pipeline will cross residences for

24· ·our members.

25· · · · · · And our primary concern is about damage to





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·1· ·wildlife and wildlife habitat.· And for a pipeline,

·2· ·there is interim damage that comes from the

·3· ·construction of the line; but there's also risk

·4· ·involved in spills, leaks and ruptures.· I was

·5· ·unfortunate to be in Michigan a few years ago when

·6· ·there was a big oil spill from a pipeline rupture

·7· ·into the Kalamazoo River, and I was able to see

·8· ·firsthand the effect that that had on the wildlife.

·9· · · · · · My question for you is:· What's your

10· ·record?· You have 85,000 miles of pipeline in the

11· ·United States that you maintain.· How often do you

12· ·have a rupture, a leak or a spill?

13· · · · · · (Applause.)

14· · · · · · MR. FORE:· Let's talk about the safety

15· ·generally, and then I want to talk about some of the

16· ·procedures and processes we use to make sure we're

17· ·operating a safe line.

18· · · · · · But from the overall safety perspective,

19· ·incidents are rare, but they do happen.· And I

20· ·encourage anyone who's interested in a fair

21· ·evaluation and a real evaluation of the company's --

22· ·our company's safety record is available as any other

23· ·company's.· You go to the Department of

24· ·Transportation Office of Pipeline Safety, and they

25· ·include in public on their website a list of





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·1· ·reportable incidents.

·2· · · · · · And what you'll see is on a fair, objective

·3· ·analysis that we outperform the industry in almost

·4· ·every category.· It doesn't mean we're perfect.· It

·5· ·doesn't mean we don't have incidents.· But we're, if

·6· ·not the leader, among the best in the industry.

·7· ·That's all reportable on the USDOT website.

·8· · · · · · Secondly is we also -- you can check our

·9· ·own website.· We're the only energy company that

10· ·publishes our safety record in key categories in

11· ·comparison to the rest of the industry on our own

12· ·website.· So you can go there and see it and make

13· ·your own objective analysis.

14· · · · · · So that's what I encourage you to do is not

15· ·to cherry-pick and take certain incidents or

16· ·something that is taken out of context.· Take a look

17· ·at the totality of the record that's reported to the

18· ·federal agency and see what Kinder Morgan and the

19· ·system does and how we compare to the industry, which

20· ·is very good.

21· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Okay.· There are a couple of

22· ·other good sources for folks that would like to do

23· ·some research on this.· There's an industry

24· ·organization called, The Association of Oil

25· ·Pipelines.· And despite the fact that they are an





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·1· ·industry organization, they have a fantastic website

·2· ·that's a good introduction to pipelines, and it's

·3· ·called Pipelines 101.· So I encourage you to go on --

·4· ·just Google Pipelines 101, and the link will pop up

·5· ·on that, and that will have some background

·6· ·information for you.

·7· · · · · · As Alan mentioned, Kinder Morgan, we

·8· ·publish our safety statistics.· We try to be

·9· ·transparent there.· The U.S. Department of

10· ·Transportation also records any pipeline leaks, and

11· ·that's whether it's out of the pipelines or within a

12· ·facility, of 5 gallons or greater.· And you're going

13· ·to see a spike in the numbers about ten or so years

14· ·ago when the reporting criteria changed.· And it

15· ·looks like things suddenly got horrible.· It's just

16· ·because of the reporting rule change, and everybody

17· ·started reporting small, mostly maintenance-related

18· ·issues that used to not be deemed significant.

19· · · · · · At Kinder Morgan, there's a couple of

20· ·things we do specifically that make us a good

21· ·operator.· One of the things that we do is that we

22· ·use a leak detection computer model.· This pipeline

23· ·is going to be operated out of a control center

24· ·that's manned around the clock, 365 days a year, up

25· ·in Alpharetta.· Someone will be sitting at the





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·1· ·console dedicated to running this pipeline.

·2· · · · · · And the computers that we use to control --

·3· ·the computer system we use to control this, there

·4· ·will also be a model called a computational leak

·5· ·detection model that is constantly looking at flow

·6· ·rates on the pipeline and the pressure at different

·7· ·points all along the pipeline and asking itself a

·8· ·question, do I think I have a leak?· And if the

·9· ·answer -- if the computer thinks it sees something as

10· ·an anomaly, it alarms the operators trained to shut

11· ·it down.

12· · · · · · The pipeline does not resume operations

13· ·until the issue has been resolved.· You can say a --

14· ·if someone is sent down and we learn it's a false

15· ·alarm or if the computer picked up a bad piece of

16· ·information from, say, a pressure indicator and it's

17· ·resolved, then the pipeline can be restarted.

18· · · · · · The other thing that we commit to at Kinder

19· ·Morgan is periodically along the pipeline, we place

20· ·valves that are isolation valves so that if there is

21· ·a problem, heaven forbid, we can isolate the

22· ·pipeline, shut off the flow.· We also use those for

23· ·maintenance purposes.

24· · · · · · The U.S. Department of Transportation

25· ·doesn't tell us how those valves are to be operated.





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·1· ·And in the old days, they were all manually operated.

·2· ·Even today, they can still be manually operated.· So

·3· ·if you think -- so if an operator thinks there's a

·4· ·problem, someone has to go out in a truck and close

·5· ·it.· At Kinder Morgan, in the last several years, we

·6· ·started committing to making these valves remotely

·7· ·controlled from that control center in Alpharetta.

·8· ·So if there's -- if a pipeline is shut down and

·9· ·anyone even suspects there's an issue, those valves

10· ·are closed remotely.

11· · · · · · Another thing we do is on about an

12· ·every-fifth-year -- about every fifth year, we will

13· ·run an instrument or tool through -- actually, a set

14· ·of tools through a pipeline to look for any kind of

15· ·issues, such as corrosion, and make sure we don't

16· ·have any issues there.· We also look to see if there

17· ·are any dents in the pipeline, which are indications

18· ·that someone may have hit the line and not reported

19· ·it.· So, again, that happens every fifth year.

20· · · · · · The other thing we do is we use an

21· ·impressed current cathodic protection system on this

22· ·pipeline.· We install a pipe with a very good coating

23· ·system on it called fusion-bonded epoxy.· All of the

24· ·joints where the welds are are also coated with that

25· ·same coating material.· And then we install a system





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·1· ·along the pipeline, typically about every 25 miles or

·2· ·so, and that pushes current from some anodes to the

·3· ·pipe to prevent corrosion from any place where there

·4· ·might be a tiny little flaw in that coating.· So we

·5· ·think we do a good job as operators at Kinder Morgan.

·6· ·I circle back to what Alan said.· Take a look at our

·7· ·record and compare us to the other operators.

·8· · · · · · MR. MUTTER:· Gentleman in the middle,

·9· ·please.

10· · · · · · MR. DAVIS:· Troy Davis from Guyton,

11· ·Georgia.· I've lived in Effingham County all my life.

12· ·There's been quite a few good points made up here

13· ·this evening.· I would like to add on by saying, you

14· ·know, No. 1, we as a family have already given up

15· ·30 acres to right-of-way easements in Effingham

16· ·County, almost 35.

17· · · · · · We discussed about public need and things

18· ·about that.· You know, the birds, timberland,

19· ·wetlands, all of those things are things that are

20· ·dear to everyone here.· And there are plenty of

21· ·people regulating them once the pipeline is built.

22· · · · · · I think what it boils down to, really, is

23· ·public need.· Okay.· Since we're no longer a farming

24· ·community, we're no longer really grass routes.· We

25· ·have a need for a grocery store.· We have a need for





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·1· ·a barber.· We have a need for clothing stores.

·2· · · · · · Now, when it gets down to it, y'all are a

·3· ·for-profit corporation, correct?· Now, this economy

·4· ·was driven on free market capitalism.· If there truly

·5· ·is a need for your pipeline, you will find willing

·6· ·participants, you will acquire the land necessary to

·7· ·construct it, and you will pay what the general

·8· ·market will drive for the right-of-way for that

·9· ·pipeline.· As I said, the trees, the wetlands,

10· ·everything else, we've got EPD.

11· ·We've got them to monitor, you know, your working

12· ·conditions, your leaks and the whole nine yards.

13· · · · · · The bottom line is it's a very slippery

14· ·slope to grant a for-profit corporation the ability

15· ·to utilize eminent domain to further their business

16· ·interests.· Once you do that, you turn around and you

17· ·force the unwilling participants to negotiate with

18· ·you and finally go through a court to settle the

19· ·issue.

20· · · · · · Now, we all know that the State of Georgia

21· ·is profiting from the royalties that you're paying

22· ·them through taxes.· Effingham County is going to

23· ·profit from the taxes that you pay to them.· Now,

24· ·which way do you think the court is going to rule?

25· ·Again, it's not just you.· It's any for-profit





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·1· ·corporation should never be granted the right to

·2· ·utilize eminent domain to forward their progress.

·3· ·Thank you very much.

·4· · · · · · (Applause.)

·5· · · · · · MR. MUTTER:· Can we take another comment,

·6· ·please, gentleman in the front.

·7· · · · · · MR. GARVIN:· Hey, Jack Garvin.· I'm from

·8· ·Clyo, Georgia.· Gentlemen, I just want to say this to

·9· ·you:· Eminent domain was great when we wanted to put

10· ·a highway.· When we needed 16 and Bulloch County

11· ·stopped that for years, we finally got it through.

12· ·It should not be for y'all.

13· · · · · · Let me speak to the property owners.

14· ·Folks, we have to go through the state legislature

15· ·and we've got to tell them, not ask them, tell them

16· ·that we don't want this.· And the way we can do this

17· ·is by every one of you saying something to your state

18· ·legislature.· Thank you, gentlemen.· And I hope you

19· ·don't get this.

20· · · · · · (Applause.)

21· · · · · · MR. MUTTER:· The lady in the back and then

22· ·the lady in the front as well.

23· · · · · · MS. HICKS:· My name is Pat Hicks

24· ·(phonetically), and I'm from Savannah.· I'm new to

25· ·Savannah.· I moved here from Los Angeles.· You had





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·1· ·talked about pricing and how price is going to drop

·2· ·when you bring the oil to Savannah at the gas pump.

·3· ·Are you going to give me a written guarantee of that

·4· ·because I'm old enough to remember the deregulating

·5· ·of the utilities and the airlines when we were all

·6· ·told, oh, my God, airplane tickets are going to be

·7· ·cheaper, oh, my God, electricity is going to be

·8· ·cheaper when we deregulate them and there's more

·9· ·competition in the market.

10· · · · · · Well, you guys already own a monopoly, and

11· ·you're -- admittedly, you said you own the majority

12· ·of it.· So you're going to force the little guy out

13· ·here, and then you're going to want to monopolize.

14· ·And I'll guarantee, I'll give you a written guarantee

15· ·right now that prices will not go down.· Will you

16· ·give me a written guarantee that they will go down?

17· ·Because that's what you're saying, and I don't

18· ·believe it.

19· · · · · · (Applause.)

20· · · · · · MR. FORE:· Well, I think you know the

21· ·answer to that question.· Anybody, any company that

22· ·would say that would be lying to you.· So, no, we

23· ·can't guarantee that prices will go down.· What we

24· ·can guarantee --

25· · · · · · MS. HICKS:· Then what --





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·1· · · · · · MR. FORE:· I'm trying to answer your

·2· ·question.· What we can guarantee is that there will

·3· ·be additional supply, and you can talk about any

·4· ·product that you want to talk about where you can

·5· ·have one set of product and, suddenly, you have three

·6· ·or four that generally leads for a more -- like I

·7· ·talked about free market, yes, we are a free-market

·8· ·economy.· When you bring more of something in and

·9· ·there's a variety of choices that you have, that

10· ·generally leads to prices going down.

11· · · · · · Our piece of this is the transport piece.

12· ·We don't sell it.· We don't drill it.· We don't own

13· ·it.· We transport it.· So whether the prices are very

14· ·high or very low doesn't affect the transportation

15· ·charge.· We hope the prices are low.· We strongly

16· ·encourage the price to be low.· We don't control

17· ·that.

18· · · · · · What we are controlling is the amount of

19· ·product that's coming in through our transportation

20· ·system, and I don't think anybody would disagree that

21· ·if you have competition and there are choices, it

22· ·generally has a positive impact on prices.

23· · · · · · MS. HESTER:· Janet Hester, Fort Wentworth,

24· ·Georgia.· Key word that you've used repeatedly

25· ·tonight is discussion.· We have these discussions.





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·1· ·Can we have a real discussion about the shameful and

·2· ·what should be embarrassing products you and all of

·3· ·your customers make at everyone's in this room

·4· ·expense?· Do you realize that I still get to pay

·5· ·taxes on the land that you will be using in

·6· ·perpetuity?· What do I get out of this?· Your

·7· ·customers get something.· The State of Georgia gets

·8· ·something.· You get plenty, but what does the

·9· ·landowner here get?· Nothing.

10· · · · · · We don't -- we don't -- we have lost land

11· ·repeatedly.· We have had encroachments upon our

12· ·family's cemetery that has been in existence since

13· ·the early 1900s.· What we have been able to do for

14· ·you guys is to pay the taxes on the land that you're

15· ·taking from us.· Now, can you stand there and tell me

16· ·that we can have a discussion about that?

17· · · · · · (Applause.)

18· · · · · · MR. FORE:· I think we are having a

19· ·discussion about that.

20· · · · · · MS. HESTER:· No.

21· · · · · · MR. FORE:· Well, here's the process that we

22· ·follow.· And we follow regulations of the states that

23· ·we do business in, and we follow what Georgia tells

24· ·us to do.· And what we do is have an individual

25· ·negotiation with each landowner.· So every landowner





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·1· ·will get paid.· The concerns that you have about the

·2· ·value of the property that's in question, the 50-foot

·3· ·permanent easement, 40- to 50-foot, the temporary

·4· ·easement, whatever that might be, 40 to 50 feet, that

·5· ·will be part of the negotiation that you have, and

·6· ·you will be paid.

·7· · · · · · The baseline process for appraisals is we

·8· ·do a local appraiser and get a fair market value of

·9· ·what that land is worth, local appraiser, probably

10· ·somebody you know, and then you start from there.

11· ·And landowners are -- many of you are landowners

12· ·here, we all are of some sort, tough negotiators.

13· ·It's your property, and you're going to negotiate

14· ·with us.

15· · · · · · And the reason we have such a high success

16· ·rate for negotiation with landowners is because

17· ·we're fair.· We're fair on the money we paid the

18· ·landowners, and that's our track record.· So we're

19· ·not saying everybody is happy, everybody is

20· ·satisfied; but overall, as I said, we've got a

21· ·5-percent denial rate so far, 5 percent.

22· · · · · · The rest of the landowners

Documents

Transcript of Proceedings - Rincon meeting