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THIS IS DETECTIVE JIMENEZ AGAIN. THIS’LL BE THE SECOND INTERVIEW THIS MORNING, IN MY POLICE VEHICLE AGAIN. THE TIME NOW IS APPROXIMATELY 0940 HOURS. CASE NUMBER IS 90 01 31 0233. PRESENT ARE MYSELF ANDMR. EDIP YUKSEL.

BJ Would you state your full name please?A Edip Yuksel.

BJ And your, that's first name spelling E D I P ? Last name U, orcorrection, Y U K S E L ? Uhm, sir, you live at 5050 East Fifth Street?

A Uh-hmm.

BJ And your phone number is 790-1610.A 1610. Yes.

BJ Okay. We s, we're speaking briefly before the tape started,uh, I I asked you, you know, how you were involved in thechurch and you told me you were an assistant to Mr. Khalifa here at the church?

A Yes, I was

BJ And you've been here for eight months now here in Tucson?A For eight months I am here, but I uh I've been communicating

with him for several years.

BJ Okay.A I know him from (inaudible) and I publish in Turkey several

of his books. I translate them to my language.

BJ In Turkey.A Yes, in Turkey.

BJ How well, or world reknown is Mr. Khalifa?A Mr. Khalifa is a very well known uh uh s, research or scientist

in a l l __________ countries. In 1974, he discovered amathematical code m the scripture (ph) in Koran. And by this code he received a new message from the Koran which, these messages, also the original message, he claim that all Muslim countries, they do not follow Koran, they follow uh other books beside Koran which called traditions, and by this way they diverted from way of God. They have a lot of superstitions which is law (ph) and we have, uh we should be united only on the name, under the name of God alone. Human factors all is a cause, reason for division between people. And he called people to u, unify, and by this way all they (ph) hate him. And later by this code, mathematical code, he removed two verses from Koran, which he called Satanic verses. Before s, uh, uh Salmon Rushdie's business. It is interesting. And in bulletin, Muslim Perspective bulletin, he claimed and proved this, that two verses had been added to Koran, to final scripture and which it explains a lot of fight, wars, in the beginning of Islam, about Koran, about these two verses there was a

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[CONTINUED] fight, but now mathematically, letter by letter, word by word, we know that Koran has been preserved (ph) by God. And he published this book, Koran, without these two Satanic verses, and all around Muslim countries they wrote against him. They said he should be killed. For example, in (inaudible) Mohammed uh clearly de, uh stated thathe should be killed. (inaudible)

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BJ Who did that?A Valias (ph) Mohammed.

BJ Valias Mohammed?A Valias Mohammed is a leader of uh n, uh black Muslims in this

country uh supported by uh Saudi Arabia.

BJ Okay. Let me ask you.A Uh-hmm.

BJ Obviously this is very political 'cause it involves some writingsand some findings by Mr. Khalifa,

A Mm, uh-hmm,

BJ That has upset a lot of people in the Muslim countries.A Sure, all the Muslims uh, so called Muslims, they are, they

hate, 'specially the leader uh Saudi Arabia, not Iran, but uh Saudi Arabia, and whole other countries, religious people, they hate him.

BJ Let me ask you. Are there a lot of followers of what hisfindings have, uh what his, of of his findings?

A Uh (ph) he has, he has uh follower all around the world becausehis message is we must follow Koran alone, work God alone. We shouldn't follow human made books. And uh you must worship God alone. We shouldn't worship Mohammed or saints or other people. And this create a lot of hate. For example, in our mashid (ph) we don't have name of Mohammed, only name of God we put. We say Mohammed is human being, is human being like us. And for this reason they all hated him. He was hero, they hero (ph). They published millions of his books. Forexample, ______________ of South Africa, he's a very well knownuh s, speak of (ph) creature uh, and he comes here also. He attacks Christianity a lot. And that person first published his books, millions all around the world. But later (ph) when he became controversials with uh Saudi Arabia and that's guy quit to publish his books and (inaudible)Later they became all enemy to him. And later he claim thathe's messenger of God. He has mission from God, Rashaad Khalifa.

BJ Mr. Khalifa did.A Yes. And from Koran, because the code, mathematical code which

based on number nineteen, which shows also the time of the discover of the miracle and the person that's (ph) discovered the miracle is not by coincidence, all by God's divine deter­mination .

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Right.And his name also mention in Koran just nineteen times. There are many many like this. All this uh mathematical combination show us that there uh that person has, has been a mission, has a mission, which he did his mission, he's fulfilled and (inaudible)

Let me ask you, though,Yes .

You, you're talkin' about a lot of things here that Yes.

That uh, there's a lot of history to. Recently, in the past week, two weeks, the past year, has anybody came out and threatened his life to kill him?By phone he had several phones. I don't did he keep them or not,(inaudible)

Did he ever talk to about this stuff?Sure, sure. Uh, uh we would (ph) always talking and somebody called, I don't remember the city, but some uh friends may remember because there are some (ph) close friends also. I don't know United States well, and some person called from something (ph), "I would kill you, will kill you." And uh always he has been threatened a lot, and also by newspapers, by people.

Was he afraid of these threats? Did he ever show fear, that he wasNo, no. He d, he hasn, he has no fear. He had no fears.

Okay.He, he also few days ago, he got the any (ph) from police that a terrorist group had picture of this mosque, mashid (ph) and want, they want to uh make some uh how do you say, sabotage to the mashid. He, all and was (ph), uh uh he and me, we both of us were here, (inaudible) mashid (ph). He told me, "Don't tell anybody. Nothing will happen." (inaudible)

Who told you that there was a Rashaad told, uh police.Okay. The police came out here and told 'em that these (ph)Yes, yes. Uh, the arrested a group in somewhere and they had picture of the mashid.Were they local police, or or state police, F.B.I., anything 1 ikeI know a police that’s your friend that know. (ph)

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BJ Okay. Uhm, any reason to believe that uh somebody local,somebody from this, Tucson, would do this? I mean,

A First of all, the masjid (ph) here in Speedway.

BJ What is a misjid (ph)?A M, masj, masjid (ph), or mosque.

BJ Mosque.A You can call mosque.

BJ Okay.A In the Speedway there is a mosque which uh Arab goes, first

of all, Arab people, they all hate him.

BJ Uh-hmm.A They're his enemy. And uh there may be some people that give

information to

BJ UhA People. The, first of all, you must suspect about those people

that on Speedway. (inaudible)

BJ Speedway and what?A Uh, in University. They around the University.

BJ Okay.A They they have a, there is only one mosque and also (ph)

directory,

BJ Okay.A Phone directory can't (ph) find.

BJ Do you know the name of it?A Uh, I don't know.

BJ (inaudible)A I don't know the... Islamic Mosque, they say. Islamic Center.

Tu, Islamic Center of Tucson.

BJ Do you know anybody personally that threatened him there at theIslamic Center?

A No, no, no. But I know they, uh they always hate him.

BJ (inaudible)A They threaten him sometimes by phone.

BJ Okay.A That's all (inaudible)

BJ Uh, has (inaudible)A Also, I want to tell you somethin', but only it is a doubt.

A person came here from Switzerland. He was coming a coupleof times.

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BJ From Switzerland?A Switzerland.

BJ Okay.A His name was (inaudible) Eric.

BJ Abdulla?A No, no. Uh, excuse me. Uh, Eric uh was

find, is first name Eric. Eric Tolman. and that guy, Rashaad suspected from him Saudi Arabia.

BJ Uh-hmm.A And because

BJ Did they talk? Did Eric come here and they talked?A He was coming here, coming. Later Rashaad uh told him, "Don't

come here." (inaudible)

BJ How long ago was this?A About uh two, three weeks ago.

BJ Did Rashaad uh used to keep records or or uhm diary or anythinglike that?

A I don't know. No, I don't think so.

BJ Do they have a computer in there?A Yes.

BJ Okay. Do you know, uh, we smell a strong odor of chemicals,like paint or some some strong odor coming from the house. Do you know if he had any, any strong chemicals in there for anything, any reason?

A No. No, no, no, no.

BJ Okay. Uhm,A What kind of chemical? (inaudible)

BJ We don't know. The, that's why the fire department's herechecking it out. Do you have any reason to believe in the last week or two has he had any run-ins with anybody that that got him upset that he had to argue with, or have 'em removed from the premises or anything like that?

A Oh, first of all, two, few days I had argued (ph) with him,was on, it's really just stuff. We had an argument.

BJ Okay.A But later we agreed on the subject.

BJ Okay. Is there a uh, well (ph) understand that it was apetition drawn a few weeks ago to have a woman removed by the name of Linda Habi, uh Lisa Habib (ph). Do you know anything about that?

A Mm, I know.

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BJ What was that about?A Uh, Linda Abib was wife of Mahmoud, a good friend of us

h e r e .

BJ Mahmoud?A Mahmoud, yes.

BJ Okay.A And, uh, she had some, uh, trouble with, uh, her husband.

BJ Okay.A And she, u h , she became animosive (ph) for Rashad because

Rashad was supporting Mahmoud, her husband.

BJ Okay.A And, uh, once she came here and threw some, uh, stuff on

Rashad's car ... on M a h m o u d 's car, on all the cars.

BJ Okay.A And, some nails there. I don't know.

BJ Okay. You wouldn't believe that she would do somethinglike this to Rashad, would you?

A Maybe.

BJ Maybe?A Maybe. _________________________________________

BJ Okay.A ... possible because she ....

BJ Is anybody in the congregation extremely upset with ..A No.

BJ .. Rashad right now?A Nope, nope, nope.

BJ Okay.A Nobody in the congregation.

BJ So, you're saying that other people, maybe the SaudiArabians, other Islamic people who don't believe ...

A All that I suspect from Saudi Arabia is, uh, that they maypay somebody to kill him.

BJ Okay. So, this could be a .. possibly a political killingthen?

A Political killing is very 90% is possible because we are ..we are always .. I am always waiting this thing. I told him several times, "You must keep security for yourself and protect yourself. You must be careful". Uh, that's ...

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What .. what would he say about that?Excuse me?What would ...Because always newspapers, magazines ...I know but what would Rashad say when you would say those things to him?Oh, Rashad said that not to worry Go... whatever, God has listened. It will happen.Okay.And, we cannot prevent ... And, uh, but, uh, I don't knowwhat to tell you. It was small detail, uh, when MahmoudAbib .. Mahmoud's wife, that Linda, _________ separated fromher husband ....Um-hum... he .. before separation, he sold her, uh, small gun to Rashad. He said, "I need money" and "Could you please buy this?" And, Rashad which had no gun and which always against carrying guns, this kind of stuff, he bought it to help herand put there. And, he said, "I put here. Maybe, I mayneed" he said. But ...Okay. How long ago was that that he bought the gun?It was about, uh, two months ago.Okay. And, umm ...Small, uh ...Small caliber?Yes, small.Where would he keep the gun? Where would Rashad keep the gun?He put it in the drawer.What drawer? A kitchen drawer?No, no, no. In .. in his office.In his office?Yes.Okay. Uh, he's been there for some time. What time in the morning would he get to work? Would ...Oh, he gets very early, sometimes three o'clock (3:00).Okay. Does he sleep during the day or ..No, during days, he takes some naps sometimes between eleven (11:00), twelve (12:00). But he’s a veryhardworking .. he was very hardworking, energetic person.

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BJ So, it was .. it was not unusual for him to come to work attwo or three or in the morning?

A No, no. no. Always, two, three in the morning he comeshere.

BJ Okay. So people would know that he was here then?A Sure, everybody knows.BJ How many ac... how many people had access to the .. to, uh,

the house as far as gettin in and out with a key?A To the .. uh, to that __________________, all believers we

had.BJ Okay.A But, the others, uh, door, is s.. many times he closed the,

uh, the door between the mosque and his office.BJ Um-hum.A And the others, uh, only a few people has ...BJ Okay.A .. key.BJ Alright. Humm, so, it's a possibility that someone very

upset with him or someone politically upset with him about his beliefs would of been ...

A In Rashad, there is nobody to be enemy for him, only a .. asuspect from Saudi Arabia and maybe that Linda very small. How do you say? Very .....

BJ Okay. Okay. So ... Alright. Will we find in there hisbooks that he's published?

A Um.. um-hum (affirmative).BJ Okay.A This is also his book.BJ Okay.A This translation.BJ Alright. Do you have English transaction (sic) on that?A Yes, the Koran, The Final Testament Authorizing ...BJ Koran: The Final Testament Authorizing This Version.

And Koran is spelled Q-u-r-a-n.A Yes, this is the holy book of all Muslims.BJ Okay. Alright.A And maybe the Arabic. Uh, he removed two verses from here.BJ And because he removed those two verses ...A Yes, it was very controversial subject ...

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Yeah... because ....More controversial than, uh, than Mr. Rashad?Oh, yes. And all the re., related ______________ withRashad, in all countries, they said, uh, Sanrahushti (ph) is his follower.Um-hum.I can show you magazines, the number one magazine in Turkey says Rushti (ph) is his follower.Is there any truth to that?No, not true but there is some devine co... connection. Itis interesting. Their names and some, uh, things which ..for example: Article 19 - Saudi Friends of Rushti (ph)All Around the World, Article 19, which Miracle 19 isRashad's number one, uh, how do you say, he .. he len.. he's known that he's the person that's discovered 19 in the oldest scripture.Alright. Was Russia against Ra.. Rashad's, uh, beliefs also?I .. I don't think Rashad was .. uh, has good feelings about Rushti. He said Rushti is criticizing, a bad, uh ...Okay. No, other countries. I'm talkin about not only Saudi Arabia, uh, but other countries in the .. in the .. in the middle east ...Humm... were upset with .. with his beliefs.Oh, sure. For example: Turkey and , Iran, Syria.All ...What about the .... Lybia. For example: Lybia, Khadafi, uh, how do yousay, took a shot and arrested him for sh.. a long time he was in United Nations. He was a consultant ofconsultant of Khadafi for a long time.How long ago was that?It was about ten years ago.Okay. How long has he been the pastor of this com., uh, congregation here?At least ten years.Ten years? Okay. So . . What about the Soviet Union?Were they ...Excuse me?

BJ The Soviet Union. Were they

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A No/ no. He has no .. any confrontation with them.BJ No?A But/ he had with Khadafi a lot and Khadafi put him in

prison and executed his friends/ killed, but he say .. and later he forgave him.

BJ Okay. Anything else you can add that you .. that might ..other than what you've already told us, that might ...

A No, now I am so tired and ...BJ No ... no ....A And, you know, if I have, I will call you, God willing, I

will tell you.BJ Alright. I'll stop the tape. The time now is, uh, ...

Oh, let me ask you. Has everything you've told me todaybeen the truth?

A Oh, yes.

BJ Could you state your full name for the record once more?A My name is Edip Yuksel, E-d-i-p, Y-u-k- .. uh, s-e-1.BJ Okay. I'll stop the tape at 9:55. Thank you.A Thank you.

INTERVIEWED BY

02/09/90 1450 Hours