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From what I understand they are Asian in manufacture. That's why there has been so much conversation about the name 'cause they aren't really Swiss. I could be wrong but don't think so. __________________ Renato, Marina Militare, Zodiac, Invicta, Hamilton, SeaPro, Orient, Wenger, Riedenschild, Luminox, Swiss Legend, Seiko, Sector, Bulova, Gruen, ESQ, Tauchmeister, Vostok and Alpha all have their place..... on my wrist! sheraortho Senior Member True WatchGeek bigjimzlll Senior Member Super Geek
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05-25-2009, 05:39 PM
bigjimzlll
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Technica Swiss ebauche
Ok, I've read all info, I've heard Jim, Shaun and Jill explain it's the name of the company. Then
Eyal said last night it's made with swiss parts that's why they can call it swiss???? Maybe there
ought to be a time delay button like on the radio.
#2
05-25-2009, 06:24 PM
sheraortho
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From what I understand they are Asian in manufacture. That's why there has been so much
conversation about the name 'cause they aren't really Swiss. I could be wrong but don't think so.
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Renato, Marina Militare, Zodiac, Invicta, Hamilton, SeaPro, Orient, Wenger, Riedenschild,
Luminox, Swiss Legend, Seiko, Sector, Bulova, Gruen, ESQ, Tauchmeister, Vostok and Alpha
all have their place..... on my wrist!
BRIAN
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#3
05-25-2009, 06:33 PM
JNL
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I think its just the name they decided to call the company, It may be to confuse people. I cant
really think of another reason
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#4
05-25-2009, 07:12 PM
Arclight56
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I like the movement but I'm sure they move a heck of a lot more of them keeping the "Swiss" in
the name. They can dance around it all they want but in my opinion it's shamefully misleading to
most "normal" folks and not something Invicta needs to do.
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#5
05-25-2009, 07:18 PM
Watchbear
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The key phrase is "The movement contains SOME swiss made parts"
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#6
05-25-2009, 08:56 PM
jeeper78
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Yes, SOME Swiss parts, assembled in Asia. I agree that the name of the company is
intentionally somewhat misleading.
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#7
05-25-2009, 09:02 PM
bigjimzlll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchbear
The key phrase is "The movement contains SOME swiss made parts"
Bob, I understand the movement contains some swiss parts and it is a "copy" of an Unitas
movement. I know it's made over seas in the far east.
My point was, Eyal said the reason it is called Swiss is because of the swiss parts it contained.
Which we all know is erroneous, hence my comment about a delay button to keep wrong or
embarrassing info from going out "live"
bigjimzlll
#8
05-25-2009, 09:08 PM
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I like mine, keeps within 15-20 seconds a day. nice skeltonized movement!! I believe it was
presented as Asian Made.
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#9
05-25-2009, 09:09 PM
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Where does it say any swiss parts, ??
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#10
05-25-2009, 09:12 PM
Mr Horology
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Pretty much what Ebauche is movement blank, which is pretty much a
movement which is sold as a set of loose parts, including the main
plate, the bridges, the train, the winding and setting mechanism and the
regulator. The timing system, escapement and the mainspring, are not
parts of the ebauche
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#11
05-25-2009, 09:18 PM
unclefixit
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No one is being mislead
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjimzlll
Ok, I've read all info, I've heard Jim, Shaun and Jill explain it's the name of the company.
Then Eyal said last night it's made with swiss parts that's why they can call it swiss????
Maybe there ought to be a time delay button like on the radio.
You must remember the terms being used
are meant to discribe various parts of a fully
assembled watch movement.
Try thinking in custom automotive
terms..."Ebauche" would equal "short
block", than you add a whole bunch of other
parts to create a finished engine / movement.
This is a very simplistic way to explain why
they can call it the Technica "Swiss"
Ebauche movement.
Jay
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#12
05-26-2009, 09:44 AM
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I like the "short block" reference and it is most appropriate. You can by an Edelbrock crate
motor based on the Chevy smalll block foundation using Edelbrock proprietarty parts to
complete the package.
On the issue of advertising and marketing, it should be understood that the "full truth" is rarely
presented in any public or broadcast medium. For example, I work in the display industry and
consult for some of the largest display manufacturers in the world. When you look at the
brightness spec or the contrast spec on a plasma or LCD display or a projector, the actual
performance does not match the advertised spec. In the realm of cars, the MPG gotten by DOT
rarely if ever matches what you actually get. In short, the "full truth" is rarely revealed in
advertising hence the phrase "caveat emptor" or let the buyer beware. My advice is to do your
home work and then decide if something is right for you but do NOT rely on advertising or
marketing for the "rest of the sotry" as Paul Harvey was known to say.
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#13
05-26-2009, 09:52 AM
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Its the best of both if you ask me ,you know swiss cheese and rice ,both good ,a little different
though,makes a great movement at a great price!!
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#14
05-26-2009, 10:06 AM
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I like the short block reference too, very nicely put.
The company was named before Invicta bought them, so it is not a marketing ploy by Invicta.
The brand was named "Technica Swiss Ebauche" because the essence of their business is to
build movements in Asia with.... now pay attention.... Swiss Ebauches. And that's why the
name is as it is.
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Your candor in the explanation reveals the nature of the relationship you have formed with
your viewers.
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#15
05-26-2009, 11:56 AM
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Makes sense to me.
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#16
05-26-2009, 12:19 PM
Arclight56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jskelton
I like the short block reference too, very nicely put.
The company was named before Invicta bought them, so it is not a marketing ploy by Invicta.
The brand was named "Technica Swiss Ebauche" because the essence of their business is to
build movements in Asia with.... now pay attention.... Swiss Ebauches. And that's why the
name is as it is.
Now that they own it, they should change the name so as not to mislead people. I agree that
Invicta had the "Marketing Ploy" built in when they bought the company. They know the
controversy and the confusion this creates. It really does not matter where it originated. They
continue to run with it. I don't care what the company was called before they bought it. The
name misleads people and they would have to be brain dead not to realize that.
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#17
05-26-2009, 12:34 PM
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If it was named China Ebauches or Far East Ebauches it would clear it up but sales would
plummet!
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#18
05-26-2009, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jskelton
The brand was named "Technica Swiss Ebauche" because the essence of their business is to
build movements in Asia with.... now pay attention.... Swiss Ebauches. And that's why the
name is as it is.
I had a rash on my ebauches once... that sure did hurt.
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#19
05-26-2009, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jskelton
I like the short block reference too, very nicely put.
The company was named before Invicta bought them, so it is not a marketing ploy by Invicta.
The brand was named "Technica Swiss Ebauche" because the essence of their business is to
build movements in Asia with.... now pay attention.... Swiss Ebauches. And that's why the
name is as it is.
Jim, Eyal and the gang have gone out of their way to make it clear that this movement is not
Swiss made, however, that reaches the audience of the shows (I don't know those numbers) and
the 2,000 or so of 9,000+ (wow) members of WG who may view the threads regarding this
movement. The name of the movement however is not clear as to it's origins and IMO this is the
genesis of the controversy swirling around this movement. There seems to be a trend for brands
to try to associate themselves with Swiss craftsmanship/labor, oftentimes a very minimal, weak
link at best, the motives or intentions of which really don't matter- What is important IMO is that
there is confusion in the mind of consumers in this instance that needs to be addressed regardless
of how/why it came about or who named the company.
And while the issue awhile back on the SNBC page(movement errantly referred to as Swiss
Made) was fixed, the written copy on the actual item pages on watches with this movement were
not and have not been touched and as Jim put it "the information in it's most basic form" has
been left to stand on it's own without further description.
As Jim noted in that instance..."Obviously, the folks in our marketing department aren't watch
people..." and apparently they made the very simple and basic assumption/mistake that the
majority of the watch buying public, who, I would venture to say are not "watch people" either,
are likely to make based solely on the name of the movement.. It says Swiss, therefore, it is
Swiss.
In the short block example, folks who are going to buy an EB engine are certainly more
sophisticated buyers when it comes to cars than the average joe looking for a car. There is
nothing confusing as to the origin of those motors either. While the example holds up for the
comparison of fabricating from a platform, the comparison of the consumer who would buy such
an engine to the typical watch consumer, who wouldn't know an ebauche from a hole in the
ground does not.
I think the name should be changed, or, the movement better described in Invicta's
advertising/item descriptions. From what I've read, it is a great movement... I'd like to try one
out myself- Please just be crystal clear about what we're getting.
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#20
05-26-2009, 01:25 PM
hitch
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mrwatch921 Wrote that a ebauche is:
Quote:
a movement which is sold as a set of loose parts, including the main
plate, the bridges, the train, the winding and setting mechanism and the
regulator.
and Jim said:
Quote:
...The brand was named "Technica Swiss Ebauche" because the essence of their business is to
build movements in Asia with.... now pay attention.... Swiss Ebauches.
So from the above 2 statements it seems then that the TSE movement at the least has swiss made
main plates, bridges, trains, winding and setting mechanisms and regulators.
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#21
05-26-2009, 01:25 PM
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Bottom line is a great move't in a lovely watch at a tremendous price point. No problems here
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#22
05-26-2009, 01:29 PM
bigjimzlll
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Please watch and listen to what Eyal says about this movement. This is the reason for my post
Click play video on the skeleton watch.
http://www.shopnbc.com/OnAir/Program...howid=10605327
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#23
05-27-2009, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitch
So from the above 2 statements it seems then that the TSE movement at the least has swiss
made main plates, bridges, trains, winding and setting mechanisms and regulators.
Here is what Eyal told me in an email from approx. Feb 2008. (not a quote, but paraphrased)
He said that the movement is assembled in Korea. Invicta outsources some labor from Seagull
employees and also source some parts from Seagull. The assembly is managed by a team of
Swiss watchmakers. He also indicated that they are seeing better performance from their
movements and are able to extend this value to the customer.
And here is another wrinkle on the name. Why is it OK to totally dismiss the "Swiss" part of the
name? It's just a name, nothing more. Then on the other hand, totally buy in to the "Ebauche"
part of the name. Implying that they take an movement blank and improve upon it or make a
better movement from it. It is more likely that they are 100% Chinese movements (Sea-Gull for
the ST1902 mechanical chrono example), and any improvements they see is a product of the QC
and assembly conditions at TSE.
Now, I'm not bashing these 6497/6498 movements. I like them a lot and have a few but I do
have a problem with the TSE name.
Cheers,
gigfy
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#24
05-27-2009, 01:05 PM
Mr Horology
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gigfy
Here is what Eyal told me in an email from approx. Feb 2008. (not a quote, but paraphrased)
He said that the movement is assembled in Korea. Invicta outsources some labor from Seagull
employees and also source some parts from Seagull. The assembly is managed by a team of
Swiss watchmakers. He also indicated that they are seeing better performance from their
movements and are able to extend this value to the customer.
And here is another wrinkle on the name. Why is it OK to totally dismiss the "Swiss" part of
the name? It's just a name, nothing more. Then on the other hand, totally buy in to the
"Ebauche" part of the name. Implying that they take an movement blank and improve upon it
or make a better movement from it. It is more likely that they are 100% Chinese movements
(Sea-Gull for the ST1902 mechanical chrono example), and any improvements they see is a
product of the QC and assembly conditions at TSE.
Now, I'm not bashing these 6497/6498 movements. I like them a lot and have a few but I do
have a problem with the TSE name.
Cheers,
gigfy
The 6497 and 6498 are swiss made by Unitas, which is owned by ETA
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#25
05-27-2009, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrwatch921
The 6497 and 6498 are swiss made by Unitas, which is owned by ETA
Not entirely true. Unitas does not make movements anymore. ETA has made them since they
bought out Unitas in the early 1980s.
What I was referring to is included in this post:
http://watchgeeks.net/showpost.php?p=370005&postcount=5
Invicta model 4735 uses a Sea-Gull ST3600 (6498 style) movement.
Cheers,
gigfy
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05-27-2009, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gigfy
Not entirely true. Unitas does not make movements anymore. ETA has made them since they bought
out Unitas in the early 1980s.
What I was referring to is included in this post:
http://watchgeeks.net/showpost.php?p=370005&postcount=5
Invicta model 4735 uses a Sea-Gull ST3600 (6498 style) movement.
Cheers,
gigfy
Yes those are not swiss and pretty much what i meant was is the 6498 and
6497 are swiss and i know ETA makes them.
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#27
06-12-2009, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitch
mrwatch921 Wrote that a ebauche is:
Quote:
a movement which is sold as a set of loose parts, including the main
plate, the bridges, the train, the winding and setting mechanism and the
regulator.
and Jim said:
Quote:
...The brand was named "Technica Swiss Ebauche" because the essence of their business is to build
movements in Asia with.... now pay attention.... Swiss Ebauches.
So from the above 2 statements it seems then that the TSE movement at the least has swiss made
main plates, bridges, trains, winding and setting mechanisms and regulators.
I guess that's what's niggling me a bit. Every Technica Swiss Ebauches movement that I have seen, I
have been able to identify as a Chinese movement.
There were some very early skeleton triple-calendar autos that I remember that were clearly from the
Hangzhou 2000 series. That's a Chinese design based on the design of the Seiko 7009, but with a lot of
in-house changes in the version Invicta used.
(I vaguely recall some Chinese Standard skeleton Invictas, but I confess I can't remember for sure if they
bore the TSE label)
The mechanical chronograph is without any doubt the Sea-Gull ST19; essentially a modern update of
the old Tianjin 'Project 304' from the 1960s, which was built on tools bought from Venus. So originally
Swiss design, but significantly reworked and made in China.
Then there are the big skeleton hand-winders. Sea-Gull ST36, largely copied from the ETA 6497 but
made entirely in China, with a skeleton cut quite distinct from any coming from Switzerland.
So then whatever Swiss parts may be involved in producing these movements, the ebauche seems to
be Chinese, not Swiss.
I should point out here that von Burg's Swissebauches Ltd, Hong Kong, only make 100% chinese quartz
movements and have done so for many years, so the words 'Swiss' and 'Ebauches' appearing in a brand
name say as much about country of origin as 'Swiss Cheese', 'French Fries' or 'Belgian Waffles'.
I may be wrong though, so if anybody has an example to show us of a Technica Swiss Ebauches
movement pre-dating Invicta's use of the name, it might help to shed some light on the history behind
it.
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#28
06-12-2009, 10:41 AM
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Chascomm wrote:
Quote:
...I should point out here that von Burg's Swissebauches Ltd, Hong Kong, only make 100% chinese
quartz movements and have done so for many years, so the words 'Swiss' and 'Ebauches' appearing in
a brand name say as much about country of origin as 'Swiss Cheese', 'French Fries' or 'Belgian
Waffles'...
After carefully reading your entire post I have to agree with you and stand corrected by removing the
underlined words (swiss made) from the following that I previously posted:
Quote:
mrwatch921 Wrote:
Quote:
that a ebauche is a movement which is sold as a set of loose parts, including the main
plate, the bridges, the train, the winding and setting mechanism and the
regulator.
and Jim said:
Quote:
...The brand was named "Technica Swiss Ebauche" because the essence of their business is to build
movements in Asia with.... now pay attention.... Swiss Ebauches.
Sandoz wrote:
So from the above 2 statements it seems then that the TSE movement at the least has swiss made
main plates, bridges, trains, winding and setting mechanisms and regulators.
