Guest interview:

Rise VanFleet

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ADMIN POST: Hi everyone! I want to welcome tonight’s guest Risë VanFleet, President and founder of the family enhancement & play therapy centre, psychologist, dog behaviour consultant, author and loads more!!!! Welcome Rise, and thank you for finding time in your schedule for fitting us in! Tonight I would love to focus on your book - The Human Half of Dog Training. So to kick off can you tell us briefly about yourself and the first question is... How do cognitive distortions and resistance disrupt the trainer / client relationship?

Risë VanFleet Hi everyone! Very happy to be here!

Annik Vuffray hello! great first kick off question!

Christine Holmes Spriggs Bennett hi Risë VanFleet! welcome!

Risë VanFleet I'm a child/family psychologist and a play therapist (for children), and I'm also a certified

dog behavior consultant. I like to wear many hats, I think!

Kim Carnell Hello Risë how are you and your doggies

Jason Currie Welcome Rise thank you for joining us

Risë VanFleet As for the initial question, I think it's a rather big one, so I'm going to start with the

resistance part.

Thanks for all the welcomes - I'm doing fine - I was able to get rid of my cane yesterday (from my knee

replacement), and all the dogs are doing well! they're quiet at the moment, anyway!

Kim Carnell great news,

My lot send their love.

Risë VanFleet As for the resistance, I think often we, as dog professionals, can get pretty frustrated when

our clients (the human ones) don't do what we ask them to, or they give us some push-back when we are trying

to help change their behavior. It can be tough because we probably all secretly wish that we could just say what

they should do and that they would then just do it! Unfortunately, humans aren't built that way!

It's often a belief that we should get rid of resistance somehow, but I have a different take on it. To me,

resistance in its many forms often is a reflection that the person is trying to get their head around what we are

asking.

Kim Carnell who would you say are more resistant to change men or women

Risë VanFleet Resistance can be a knee-jerk reaction for some, but often, people are simply trying to

make sense out of what we are talking about. Our clients have a very different frame of reference from our own.

What is obvious to us is not obvious to them!

Ooooo, loaded question, Kim! A good question, though! I don't think I can say. It really has more to do with their

own personality, their life experiences, and how they process new information.

Christine Holmes Spriggs Bennett it's hard sometimes to really think back and remember how much I

DIDN'T know before I became a trainer, and apply that to my human students

Annik Vuffray Resistance in effect can be the most useful tool to use for us, when dealing with living

beings, isnt'it?

Kim Carnell would you say resitance comes form the not knowing or understanding the way that we

as trainers put across your explanations of why and how

Patty Vesalo please expand on how resistance can be the most effective tool

Risë VanFleet Christine, I think that's a great point. I DO try to keep in touch with my prior ways of

thinking in the sense that I can remember how I didn't realize that some of the things I was doing weren't so

great. I had to go through a learning process, and still am! I hope we never stop learning.

Annik, I think if we can handle it well and with understanding, we can learn so much more about our clients and

how we can best help them.

Patty, sometimes when people seem resistant, we jump to a bunch of conclusions about WHY they are that way,

or we might have our heads filled with that frustration and thoughts about how we wish they would just comply!

(Now we're touching on some of those cognitive distortions).. But if we take a little time, invite the person to talk

with us about their objections or beliefs, and REALLY and TRULY listen to what they are telling us, we can be

more effective.

Erica Marshall I have many elderly clients with young/active dogs. How are some ways I can get

training ideas and management techniques across to them so they understand and grasp the ideas?

Charlotte Steele Hi rise, thank you for putting this and I'm loving your book, I deal with puppy

parents, they need to work quickly, efficiently and confidently, like you say it also is dependant on how they

process the info, what's the quickest way to find this out?

Risë VanFleet I'll give an example. I often see elderly people, usually in their homes, who have prong

collars on their dogs. I am not a fan of prong collars. I do not immediately tell them to take the collars off, though.

I ask them WHY they have that piece of equipment - what made them choose it? What I often hear is that they

have been pulled down or are afraid of that happening. That gives me some very important information, and if I

can then target my approach to help them feel safer, I'm much less likely to get resistance to what we do.

Catching up on what you've written...

Annik Vuffray yes: resistance is a very physiolocical process we have at hand as living beings. So,

being aware of the sometimes "difficult" aspect it expresses in our "clients", patients, dogs....we can still use this

very useful manifestation of being alive to go further on in the relation and work exactely through that tool. This

one great way, we begin for example in hypnosis with patients.

..

Risë VanFleet Erica - good question - we're on the same wavelength with our elderly examples! My first

step is the one I just wrote about (our comments posted at the same time). Once I can hear their concerns, I then

tell them how I can meet those concerns in a different way. I then SHOW them, which I think is very important,

and then ask them to try. When they are trying, I try to give lots of positive reinforcement to the person, along with

encouragement.

Patty Vesalo I find that resistance in the first in home session. More like they don't know what to think

... then as they try some things, often they become "groupies". Wondering if they need a slower start ...

Jason Currie Risë VanFleet I notice that some people like Cesar Millan seem to convince people of what

they are saying, how much of the client communication is based on charisma opposed to just good clear

communication skills ?

Risë VanFleet Charlotte - am I understanding that you're asking about finding out how people learn or

process info? While there are books and articles about people's learning styles, I don't really find those all that

helpful. Mostly, I just do a lot of listening in the beginning, and it becomes more apparent where they are coming

from. I think we all (myself included) have a tendency to talk too much at the beginning. I have found that I get a

lot more information by listening. I don't even ask that many questions at the start - I just get them started and

begin using the empathic listening skill that I talk about in the book.

Sorry - I missed Kim’s question - coming right up!

Wow - I've never typed so fast in my life!

Great questions, though!

Annik Vuffray you are great!

Patty Vesalo I appreciate your attentiveness to these questions! Thank you.

Christine Holmes Spriggs Bennett I think we, as humans, need to learn to listen more, generally

speaking!

Risë VanFleet Kim, I think there can be a big gap between how we explain things and what our clients are

expecting sometimes. They might want that magic trick to immediately fix the problem, or they might think we will

just show them how to dominate their dogs. If we don't acknowledge their expectations and just start talking

about clicker training or positive methods, we risk losing them.

I think we have to be very careful, too, about how we present the information itself. Even though on various

facebook groups, we talk about quadrants and reinforcement schedules and so on, I rarely talk using that

terminology with clients. If they are interested in it, sure, but most clients just want to know what to do with their

dogs.

What I do instead is to explain the basic rationale in very down-to-earth ways, then show them, then ask them to

try. Later, it's valuable for them to know more of the concepts so they can apply them with new situations, so I'll

then teach in a little more depth, but even then, not with much jargon. Down to earth communication works the

best in my opinion.

Christine Holmes Spriggs Bennett I find that to be the case too...people don't really care about

quadrants, they just want their dog to stop jumping on them

Denise O'Moore Risë how do you find working with families whose children are complicating matters?

Risë VanFleet I have to keep refreshing my page to show the new comments - doing that now.

Jason Currie that's a super point Rise I guess its easy to trainers to have pre prepared templates for

problems and expect owners to mould around them

Charlotte Steele Rise this is why I'm keen to educate as early as possible that nurturing your puppy

with confidence and clarity can result in a calm confident puppy ♡

Kim Carnell Do you feel Risë that we should maybe look at making our approach more simplified and

personal to each client rather than having a set format that we follow

Charlotte Steele Denise O'Moore good question

Nichola Mccarthy Rise VanFleet, do you mind me asking how you train a VERY nervous female

Akita aged 15 months, who is confident in her own home, but very nervous outside her home, I've tried

everything as suggested my people and research on the internet??

Risë VanFleet Patty Vesalo - there's really nothing quite as powerful as a demonstration. People want

answers. Sometimes we can give them best by showing them something simple and how it works. Then letting

them try that simple something. They feel more successful and are more likely to pay attention to the other things

that we are sharing.

Jason Currie Risë do you think its worthwhile for dog instructing courses to look at client communication

as a distinct element of the qualification process ?

whoops hope were not overloading you Risë VanFleet

Risë VanFleet I'm trying to answer the questions in order - I think Denise's is next - about children. I love

to include children in the training, even very young ones, but I think some real structure is needed. How I add

structure is different in a group than at home. I mostly do at-home work with families, as they comprise a group of

their own.

with kids, I ask the parents to have things they can go do when we are doing the "boring" talking parts. I usually

have the kids there in the beginning if the problem isn't too severe or including the children, and ask their

opinions. then we can dismiss them while I talk with the parents, and bring them back in when we are doing the

hands-on parts. Again, I do a short explanation, then a demo, and ask the kids to try. Just as with dogs, I will

redirect them to better behaviors if they don't quite get it right.

Denise O'Moore Risë how do you handle families that clearly want different things from the dog?

Risë VanFleet I teach ALL children about how to meet and greet dogs safely, even the kids I work with in

therapy with my dog. And I do that using stuffed dogs first - and making it like a game, and then bring in the live

dog. When kids are given the right structure and shown what to do instead of their usual behaviors, I think they

do really well - sometimes better than adults!

Patty Vesalo Risë - I totally understand. Where I have problems with demo'ing is with a very very shy

dog that it takes most of the first session to get to a point that we can interact. That client expected a CM show ...

and felt that did not get enough of a "guarantee" my methods would work (because they thought they were slow).

I, on the other hand, was thrilled with the interaction of the dog's positive interaction with me by the end of the

session!

Risë VanFleet Kim - YES!!! Much more simplified and tailored specific to each family or client - not a rote

program. You can use those rote programs as a framework, but then you have to be flexible to meet the clients'

needs as individuals.

Kim Carnell thank you

Shay Kelly Hi Risë VanFleet, I find that many people think that their dog has the problem, rather than

being able to see that it's themselves and their own actions that's the problem. Do you ever tell people that it's

not the dog but them?

Risë VanFleet Nichola - That's a great question, and I'm VERY interested in highly fearful and anxious

dogs. I think we'll focus on the people side here today, but I'm glad to talk elsewhere or another time about these

very anxious dogs, if you'd like!

Patty Vesalo Risë - hope you take a breath. We are so excited we keep pounding you with

questions.

Risë VanFleet Jason, I think your question about making the human side of things a part of dog training

curricula is spot on! To me, if we go through a dog training program and learn only about how to work with the

dogs, we've left out half of the equation! The only way we can truly help the dogs is through their owners. Even

those who do Board and Train can get the dogs all wonderfully trained, but then if the people don't follow through,

it all goes down the drain. (Happened to a friend of mine who spent a fortune, but then didn't follow through at

all).

Denise O'Moore ADMIN NOTE: Hi all - we are half way through our special guest session so make sure your

questions are in within the next 15 mins so they can all be answered

Per Arnt Rasmussen I consider using Dunn & Dunns learning styles and some cooperative learning

with my upcoming softagility people have you any experience with that or considerations concerning people´s

ability to learn (besides your wise and listening words so far) and how to teach them? (of course I´ll read your

books:) )

Jason Currie Thanks Risë

Risë VanFleet I will add here that human interpersonal skills are not easy. We all have learned both good

and not so good habits, but we do have the capability of learning new skills in this area. I had wonderful teachers

in grad school, and I give them a lot of credit for my being much more skillful today than I used to be! I tried to put

a lot into the book, and I was pleased with how it turned out and how it's been received, but it's not the whole

picture...

Jason Currie Rise do you think that communication courses can be worthwhile ?

Risë VanFleet To really learn these skills, it's better to learn them in person. then we can in tone of voice,

body language and other things that are critical to human communication. I'm doing some workshops in the U.S.

and the U.K. (and some being discussed for other countries), and that's where we can do some live

demonstrations of various scenarios and then practice the skills in a nonthreatening environment. But we all have

to start somewhere, and the book and discussions like this are not a bad place to start!

Erica Marshall Jason, I LOVE that idea! I would take one in a heartbeat fromRisë VanFleet!

Risë VanFleet refreshing the page to catch up with comments/questions...

Eileen Stephenson Is there anytime that it is a good idea to just remove yourself as a trainer? Ie

when the owners are just NOT getting it repeatedly.

Per Arnt Rasmussen non-threatening communication must be the keyword to get closer

communication with people:)

Patty Vesalo < buying the book! Is it available on CD?

Kim Carnell I would say to anyone who is considering buying Risë VanFleetbook the Human Half of

Dog Training to not think twice, well written, lots of great information, will make you seriously think about your

approach to people

Eileen Stephenson Humour is also a great communicator

Risë VanFleet Patty - it's available as an e-book - amazon or dogwise - now to your question about

demos with fearful dogs. Sometimes with fearful dogs, I can't demo what I'd like, but I can then teach a bit about

body language. I might also be able to show something like Treat-Retreat to show how to give the dog space and

choice. I'll use whatever I can in front of me. Sometimes I might use a video on a laptop to demo if I can't do it

with the dog. But even if I have to spend time with the dog just showing how I'll give that space and respect, and

then explaining why I'm doing what I'm doing and how the dog is reacting, I find that most people come around. I

can then explain why I don't like the more coercive methods.

Margaret Pender When suggesting learning in person, would you recommend practicing in front of a

mirror/colleagues etc? Do you think this would give accurate feedback?

Risë VanFleet Shay has a great question about people who think the dog is the problem, not themselves,

and do I tell them? I think this is OFTEN the case - no one wants to think that THEY are the problem. Mostly I

would not point the finger at them, Instead, I talk about relationships and the give and take, and how we need to

communicate clearly and better, and how dogs are dogs, and in people terms, it's a problem, but they really are

engaging in normal behaviors for dogs - and then how we need to find good ways to communicate with them how

to live with their people.

Just as when I work with parents of distressed kids, I wouldn't say, Gee, Mom, it's all your fault (because guess

how long it'll take her to get out the door...). I simply use my empathy and reflect their goals but in a goal-fashion.

when they say, for example, "That dog is deliberately trying to dominate me when she jumps up," I might say,

"You really hate the jumping up and want it to stop. I think I can help with that." I can educate them differently

over time, but first I need to have a relationship with them.

Luci Lou As someone who has consulted dog trainers - I ask for help and want them to work with me

to solve the problem - it is an emotional time and feels like admitting I failed. What doesn't help is the attitude that

I am a bad owner - what does is when someone takes the time to listen, understand how hard I have tried and

guide me back on to the path and build my confidence.

Kim Carnell not all trainers are the same Luci Lou

Shay Kelly Nice comment Luci Lou

Risë VanFleet Per's question about learning styles: I do think that it's valuable if you're familiar with those

learning styles and personality styles that people write about, but I find that a little too limiting. Also, there can be

a tendency to then try to pigeonhole people. As long as you use that information to get a general idea, and then

take each person as an individual, I think you'll get even further. So, I don't have an issue with those materials,

and they are actually useful, but I worry that people sometimes allow those "categories" to define their clients,

and I don't care for that at all.

Annik Vuffray Agree Luci Lou,completely...when asking for help, there is always a very subtile

emotional sense of "not being able/ capable" of handling a situation...more over when it concerns our beloved

ones...that is a very fertile ground where someone can hurt or plant a nice seed...

Risë VanFleet Eileen - There ARE times when I might stop being the trainer. I give it my very best, but if

things really are not working out between us, then I might suggest that they work with someone else. It's rare that

I do that, but sometimes. No one can help everyone!

Eileen Stephenson Thank you I have been struggling with that one

Risë VanFleet Margaret - about practicing - YES! practice is really valuable - even mentally rehearsing

how you might say something to the other person, especially if it's a little touchy. Practicing with colleagues, as

long as you can give honest feedback without being upset with each other is also good. And if you can get to a

training as I mentioned earlier - even better - and maybe come with a colleague or two and then go home and

practice some more! Like any new skill, the more you practice, the better you become!

Just while we're catching up on the questions I've missed, I'd like to say that I'm glad to continue this

conversation a little while past time, if you'd like, but also we will mention at the end other options for learning

more about all this...

Anne's question about clients citing their prior trainer with whom you might not agree -

That is also tricky because you don't want to criticize the other trainer directly. That can cause cognitive

dissonance and actually push the client away. I might listen to what they say, but then say something like, "Well, I

handle that situation in a different way. Why don't you let me explain my approach, and I'll answer any questions

you have afterward?"

Shay Kelly "cognitive dissonance" thank god for google

Risë VanFleet I think the way we treat other professionals matters, even if we are diametrically opposed

to their methods. I often get the CM questions, and I usually say that there are some things I like about him and

some things I disagree with. I then highlight the things I like (he's nice with people, he advocates exercise, etc.

etc.), and then with a VERY light touch, say that now we understand the whole pack thing a little differently. I try

to get away from the "other trainer" as a topic of conversation and get it right back onto the dog and their training

goals.

Nico Hechler Risë, do you plan to do workshops in Germany?

Erica Marshall Thank you for joining us Risë VanFleet and I can't wait to see you in Hartford at the

APDT conference...you are still going to be there, yes?

Risë VanFleet I'd like to say that I know this group has worked hard to keep conversations here

professional. It's not an easy thing on facebook, and especially with dog lovers because passions run high. I want

to applaud you, though, for making that a priority. Once things get snarky, you LOSE people. By that I mean you

lose their engagement. So whether it's clients, colleagues, or facebook discussions, we have to be very careful to

follow the same things that I've written about in the book. The same pitfalls are there, for example, if we engage

in personalization and blaming (two of the cognitive distortions) - we lose the opportunity to get our points across.

Denise O'Moore ADMIN NOTE: yup it's evil me time....Our guest chat has come to an end...anyone that

posted a q that didn't get answered could you please copy and paste it under this post??

Eileen Stephenson Thank you for your time.

Risë VanFleet Nico - if there's interest!

Karla Wilson Thanks, Risë!

Risë VanFleet Some of the terms I've used here, are in the book!

Kim Carnell Thank you Risë for your time and answering so many questions.

Risë VanFleet Erica - yes will be at APDT, and presenting!

Ashley Oslund Cpdt-ka Thank you Risë VanFleet for sharing your time with us!

Kim Carnell Thank you Denise and the behind the scenes guys for all your hard work

Annik Vuffray Thank you Risë VanFleet! great to get to read/"hear" more from you...always a big+

And thanks Denise O'Moore and admins for top orchestration

Risë VanFleet If I missed someone, you can ask me outside of this forum - such an eager group I could

barely keep up! That's a good thing! I've appreciated all the interest and ideas! It's a HUGE topic!

Denise O'Moore ADMIN NOTE : we will be posting Rise's info and recent book - apart from that here is the link

to her group so if you have any more questions please go and

join: https://www.facebook.com/groups/HumanHalfDogTraining/

The Human Half of Dog Training

Risë VanFleet I'll be at the APBC conference in the UK in March, doing a program for Muriel Brasseur in

November (also UK), at APDT in Connecticut in October, Houston with Michael Baugh next year, and also back

at Pam Dennison's next year -- so there will be a few opportunities. There are a few others under discussion.

Glad to have anyone here as "friends," too - and I make some announcements there of upcoming things.

I recently made the Human Half group a "secret" group (FB terminology), so if you have any trouble getting there

and you are interested, just PM me - we made it secret because FB was inundating us with spammers to add.

But let me know of your interst and if we are friends, I can just add you in to that group!

Denise O'Moore ADMIN NOTE: Thank you Risë VanFleet for another fantastic guest appearance!!! And thank

you Jason and Christine for helping out! If anyone has any further questions for rise then please go to her page

listed above or hang on till we get this filed and posted - Thank you all for your participation and look out for next

Mondays guest - Beverley Cuddy.

Risë VanFleet My pleasure! and a big thanks to the admins who helped us keep up!

Denise O'Moore ADMIN NOTE: We are finished with questions for the night but please check out the

admin section tomorrow for a file of tonight. PLUS we will be posting all reference to Risë VanFleet via books. fb.

youtube . web etc - thank you for your fantastic questions as always

Risë VanFleet If I missed anyone's question, it certainly wasn't intentional, and please feel free to contact

me directly!

Denise O'Moore Risë's latest book is available in paperback.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Human.../dp/1617811033/ref=sr_1_1...

The Human Half of Dog Training: Collaborating with Clients to Get Results

www.amazon.co.uk The Human Half of Dog Training: Collaborating with Clients to Get Results