MR BERGER: Whose shotgun was he burying? MR BUTHELEZI: It … · 2012. 9. 27. · MR BERGER: And you fired into the house because you wanted to kill whoever was in that house, you

MR B E R G E R : Whose sh o t gu n was he bury ing?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : It was his own sho tgun .

MR B E R G E R : This was a f t e r you had left B o i p a t o n g but be fo re

you r e t u r n e d to Kwamada la .

MR B U T H E L E Z I : It was on ou r way to B o i p a t on g .

MR B E R G E R : On your way in to B o i p a t o n g you saw Jabulani

burying a s h o t g u n in the g r ou n d ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes. ■

MR B E R G E R . Be f or e the a t t a ck on B o i p a t o n g ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Jabulani had a l r eady pa ss ed a way at t he t ime,

I am the one wh o bur ied the s h o t gu ns . I did not u n d e r s t a n d the*£

ques t i on . ; ^

MR B E R G E R : I th ink you u n d e r s t o o d the a b su r d i t y o f your

p i e v i o u s a ns we r , out let s proce-cu. i ou b u i i e u a s i iogun m the

veld on y o u r way to B o i p a t o n g ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : The guns w e r e not h idden at B o i p a t o n g but

were h i dden at K wam ad a l a hos te l .

MR B E R G E R : When did you bury a sho tg un ?

MR L A X : Sor ry , Mr Ber ge r , he keeps t a lk ing ab ou t guns , not a

gun, he' s us ing the plural .

MR B E R G E R : Thank you, M r Lax. All o f this f l ows f rom a

ques t ion: "Did you see Jabulani bu r y i ng a s h o t g u n ?" , and he said:

"Yes" . N o w he says Jabu lan i didn' t bu ry the s h o tg u n s , the

sho tgun , "I did".

M R BERGER 1756 S AÛTHELEZI

VEREENIGING HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

Do I u n d e r s t an d you c o r r e c t l y , Mr Bu th e l ez i?

MR. B U T H E L E Z I : I t h o u g h t you w e r e ' a s k i n g me i f I did see

Jabulani c a r ry ing a shotgun.

MR B E R G E R : I' ll s t a r t again. Did you see Jabu lan i bu ry ing a

shotgun?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : No.

MR B E R G E R : At the t r ial , y o u r counse l put on y ou r b e h a l f a

fact t ha t you had seen Jabulani b u r y i ng a sho t gun . And when It

say on yOur behal f , I mean on you r , Sipho Bu t h e l ez i ' s b e h a l f it

was put , do you r emember t ha t ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, I do r e m e m b e r tha t .

MR B E R G E R : And you say t â t is not t r ue?f

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, t ha t w as a lie.

MR B E l c G E R : Did you tell y o u r c ouns e l tha t , t ha t you saw

Jabulani bu ry ing a sho tgun?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, I t o ld him so. I t o ld him so as I was

t rying to run away f rom the t ru t h .

MR B E R G E R : H ow many s ho t s did you f i re in B o i p a t o n g ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Abou t t h r e e t imes , I f i red abou t t h r e e t ime.

MR B E R G E R : And you f i red in to hous es ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : . Yes, I f i red only once , d i r e c t i n g to the

houses .

Mjl B E R G E R : And the o t he r t w o t imes?

MR BERGER 1757 S A'BUTHELEZI

VF.REENIG1NG HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

vrg B U T H E L E Z I : I shot , d i r e c t i n g my s ho t s t o w a r d s the SDUs

and I shot for the second t ime in t he air. As t he o th e r pe op l e that

were in my c o mp an y were g e t t i n g in to the ho u s e I shot in the air.

MR B E R G E R : Why did you s h o o t in to the air?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I was t o o s c a r e d to kill a pe r son .

MR B E R G E R : You wanted to kil l p eo p l e , didn ' t you?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, t h a t w as t he i n s t ru c t i o n tha t was coming

from Mr Da mar ra . *

MR B E R G E R : And you f i red in to t he ho u s e b e ca us e you wan ted

to kill w h o e v e r was in that h o u s e , you d idn ' t care who was inside,

am I r igh t ? >*

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I shot \ at a c e r t a i n wi ndow, the bul let

pe ne t r a t e d the d ining- room.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Are you s ay i ng t ha t you didn' t fire, you fired

into t he air b ecaus e you wer e a f r a i d o f k i l l ing a human be ing?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, t ha t is c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr ev ious ly yo u had t h r e a t e n e d to s hoo t at the

people wh o w an te d to t h r o w a h a n d g r e n a d e at Stals Maz ib uk o .

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I k n e w t h a t t hey wou l dn ' t do tha t , they

wouldn ' t hit Maz i buko wi th a h a n d g r e n a d e .

CH A I R P E R S O N : But you did t h r e a t e n to s hoo t them.

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, I t r i ed to t h r e a t e n them.

MR BERGER 1758 S A.BUTHELEZI


r H A I R P E R S O N : You to ld us ea r l i e r on tha t i f you had been

i ns t ruc t ed to go to S e boke ng , yo u w o u l d have been the f i rst one

to go there .

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, I said so.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Wha t we r e you g o i n g to do there?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I was g o i ng to kill the people who we re

t rying to kill me.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yes, Mr B e r g e r ?

MR B E R G E R : Th a nk you, C h a i r p e r so n .

M r But he l ez i , at page 188 o f y o u r f u r the r pa r t i cu l a r s you

say the fo l l owi ng: Q ue s t i o n 6-:

"I had a s ho t g u n $nd I f i red sho t s in the d i r ec t ion o f

the hous es and into the air ."

Is tl iai c o n eel?


MR B E R G E R : At page 191, t h i rd last p a r a g r ap h you say the

fol lowing:

"I f i red t h r ee s ho t s in the f i r s t s t ree t which we

en ter ed . I f i red in the d i r e c t i o n o f the houses and

into the a i r . "

Is that s t a t e me n t co r r e c t ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes.

MR B E R G E R : So you f i red at mo r e than one house, am I r ight?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : 1 shot at one h o u s e only.

MR BERGER 1759 SABUTHELEZI

VEREENIGING h e a r in g s AMNESTY/GAUTENG

r

jMR B E R G E R : You know t ha t w i t h a sh o t gu n tha t the pe l l e t s

jspray all o ve r the show, it ' s not j u s t one bul l e t t ha t comes ou t o f

a shotgun, you k n o w that?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes , I know.

MR B E R G E R : So when you f i re in the d i r ec t i on o f one p e r s on

you can hit 10 peop l e , you k n o w t h a t ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes , I k n o w tha t .

MR B ER GE R ,: And you wen t s p r ay in g s ho t gun pel le t s in the

first s t ree t in wh i ch you e n t e r ed B o i p a t o n g , am I r ight?

MR. B U T H E L E Z I : Yes , that is c o r r e c t .

MR B E R G E R : And the -^first s t r e e t tha t you e n t e r ed intj

Boipa tong, was at the bot toni , t he s o u t h e r n side o f B o ip a to n g .

The first s t r e e t was M o s h w e s h w e S t r e e t , am I r ight?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : i h o u g l i 1 d o . n o t k n o w the name o f the s t r ee t ,

but it was t he s t r ee t next to the schoo l .

MR B E R G E R : Yes , tha t ' s M o s h w e s h w e St ree t , r ight at the

bot tom o f B o i p a t o n g .


MR B E R G E R : And jus t at w h e r e you came in in tha t s t r ee t ,

Moshwe shwe St r ee t , peop l e we r e ki l led and in house 666 two

people we re ki l led.

D I S T R E S S E D A U D I E N C E M E M B E R

MS C A M B A N I S : Mr Chai r , may I be excused f rom the

p roceed ings for a f ew mi nu t e s ? T h a n k you.

M R BERGER 1760 S A£UTHELEZI


M A C H I N E S W I T C H E D OFF

MR B E R G E R : And the t wo p e o p l e who were, ki l led at 666, M r

Buthe lez i , w e r e Anna Sebola i and Perc iva l Sebola i , and P e r c i va l

Sebolai w as shot in the face wi t h a sho tgun . Is it c o r r e c t , Mr

Buthe lez i , when you say t ha t you didn' t see who you w e r e

shoot ing at and you don ' t k n ow i f anyone was ki l led as a r esu l t o f

your s ho t s ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, I am sure tha t I did not see t he p e r s on

that I h i t . a s I was shoot ing .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Jus t r epea t y o u r answer .

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I am saying . . . ( i nd i s t i nc t ) tha t as I was%

shoot ing, d i r e c t i n g to the houê on tha t pa r t i cu l a r s t r ee t , I am notA

sure i f I did hit s o me on e or not .

MR B E R G E R . : When you w e r e s ho o t i n g the r e were p e op le

around you wi th spear s , am I r igh t ?


MR B E R G E R : Isn' t it c o r r e c t t ha t you went into the h ous e at

666, you and yo u r c o - a t t a c k e r s , you shot Perc iva l Sebo la i whi l s t

your c o - a t t a c k e r s s t abbed Anna Sebola i in M o s h w e s h w e S t r ee t ,

the very f i r s t s t r ee t tha t you e n t e r e d? Isn' t that wha t h a p p e n e d?

MR B U T H E L E Z I - No.

MR_B E R G E R : Wher e was Jabulani and D o c t o r whe n you

( i n t e r v e n t i o n )

MR B U T H E L E Z I : They d i sapp eared , they j us t d i s ap pe a r e d .

MR BERGER 1761 S A3UTHELEZI


MR B E R G E R : So t he y were not wi th you in M o s h w e s h w e S t r e e t

when yo u f i r ed into the houses , am I r ight?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes , they we re not t he r e wi t h me.

MR B E R G E R : Did you move d o wn to Slovo Pa rk?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes , we t o o k tha t d i r ec t i on .

MR B E R G E R : And did you fire sho t s in S l ovo Park?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I did n o t s hoo t t he re a f t e r .

MR B E R G E R : Why no t? ;

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I do not have a speci f ic r ea son why I did not

shoot.

MR B E R G E R : A cc o r d i n g t o ’̂ o u , you hadn ' t ki l led anyone up to

ithat po in t . ! \

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes , tha t is co r r ec t .

MR B E R G E R : Why did you st'pp yo u r s h o o t i n g spree w he n you

got to S l ovo P a r k?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I t ' s s omet h i ng that j u s t h a pp en e d u np l a nned .

MR B E R G E R : We r e n ' t you still chas ing the S-UT5s? 1 1

MR B U T H E L E Z I : They had a l r eady run away , mos t o f t hem.

MR B E R G E R : Ha d n ' t t hey run into the h o u s e s in Slovo P a r k?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : The o t he r s ran t o w a r d s S lovo Park.

MR B E R G E R - Yes, and you fo l l owed them there .

MJLBUTHELF. ZT- Yes , we fo l l owed them.

MRJ 3 E R G E R : But you didn' t shoot any mo re , even t h o u g h you

could have?

MR BERGER 1762 SA'BUTHELEZI


M R B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, I did no t use t he chan c e to s hoo t them.

MR B E R G E R : You ' r e not be ing c o m pl e t e l y h on es t wi th this

Commi t t ee ab o u t your p a r t i c i pa t i o n in t he a t t a c k , are you, Mr

Buthe lez i?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : No, t ha t is not t rue .

MR B E R G E R : You k n ow b e c a us e you saw the d a ma ge that a

shotgun can cause , and you wan t to d i s t a n ce y o u r s e l f f rom that

horror , i sn ' t t ha t r ight? *j

MR B U T H E L E Z I : P l ease r epea t t he q u e s t i o n , Sir.

MR B E R G E R : You know b e c a u s e you saw the d am a ge tha t a

shotgun can cause on a human be ing , and you wa nt to d i s t ance|your se l f f r om tha t hor ror , t h i t is why you say you d idn ' t shoot

anymore in Slovo Pa rk and you don ' t k n o w i f you ki l led anybody

in Boipa io i ig . I am i ight , a i en ' i l?

MR S T R Y D O M : Cha i rpe r son , I can st i l l he a r the i n t e r p r e t e r

in t e rpre t i ng whi l s t the next q u e s t i o n was a l r eady asked.

I N T E R P R E T E R : The i n t e r p r e t e r was stil l exp l a i n ing the

ques t ion to the wi tness .

MR B U T H E L E Z I : 1 can r e s p o n d l ike this , as fo l l ows : at

Boipa tong I did not shoot anyone , all I k n o w w ha t I did was to

shoot d i r e c t i ng to one house only. In my mind I t h ink t ha t was in

the b e dr oo m . I was s t and i ng on the s t r ee t , I t h ink I hit the

bedroom. I shot in the air, I left t he scene.

MR BERGER 1763 S A^BUTHELEZI


CH A I R P E R S O N : Wel l did yo u s ho o t once or did you shoo t

twice?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I used th ree bul l e t s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Al r ight . The f i r s t sho t t ha t you f i red, whe r e

was it d i r e c t e d at?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : My first shot was d i r e c t e d at the Se l f De fen c e

Units . The second one was d i r ec t ed to one ho us e and the bul le t

hit the b e d r o o m .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Okay, you f i red d i r e c t i n g the shot at a

b ed ro om?


C H A I R P E R S O N : And the tjjiird shot , was it t he one t ha t you

fired into t he air?


C H A I R P E R S O N : Yes , Mr B er ge r ?

MR B E R G E R : Th a nk you.

Y o u f i red into a b e d r o o m b e c a u s e you k new that t he r e

would be p eo p l e in bed, am I r ight ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : In that b e d r o o m the l ight was on.

MR B E R G E R : And you knew t h e re w ou l d be pe op le in bed, tha t

is why you f i red into the b e d r o o m, am I r igh t ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I did not k n o w t h a t t h e re wou l d be pe op le in

bed, or t h e re we re peop l e in bed.

M R B E R G E R . Why did you fire into a b e d r o o m ?

MR BERGER 1764 S A'BUTHELEZI


MR B U T H E L E Z I : I was t ry i ng to b r e a k the wi ndows .

MR B E R G E R . Well Mr B u t he l ezi , t h e r e we re many people

breaking w i nd o w s . Yo u r job was to kill peop le .

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I 've exp l a i ned t h a t I mysel f , I was af ra id to

kill a human being.

MR B E R G E R : You knew when you f i r ed into that b e d r o o m, that

you had a ve r y good chance o f h i t t i n g p e o p l e in bed, am I r ight? •

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I was j u s t s h o o t i n g .

MR B E R G E R : Mr Bu the l ez i , I can see you don ' t want to answer

my ques t i on , I' ll move on. I f t h e r e we r e pol i ce and pol ice

vehicles in B o i p a t on g , you wo u l d have seen them, am I r i g h t 1?$

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, t ha t i^ c o r r e c t .

MR BE R GE R . : I f the pol i ce had a s s i s t ed you and your fe l low

a t t acker s in B o ip a t on g , you w o u ld k n o w a bo u t tha t , am I r ight?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, I w ou ld k n o w a b o u t that .

MR B E R G E R : B ecause you w o u l d have seen it and you would

have d i scus sed it wi th your c o - a t t a c k e r s a f t e r wa r ds , am I r ight .


MR B E R G E R : Am I c o r r e c t w h e n I say you said Damar ra ' s

group went t o w a r d s the shops and y o u r g r o u p t o o k the o the r

route, , t ha t wou l d mean tha t y o u r g r o u p move d r ight d o wn the

first s t ree t in B o ip a t on g , c o r r e c t ?

M iL B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, tha t is c o r r e c t .

M R BERGER 1765 ' S A'BUTHELEZI


o r B E R G E R : In M o s h w e s h w e S t r ee t I can j u s t tell you that

there w e r e many w i n d o w s s ma s h e d in many, houses by your

col leagues . Do you agree t ha t t h e r e w e r e ’p l en ty o f peop le a round

you smash ing wi nd ows in M o s h w e s h w e S t r ee t ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, I agree .

M R B E R G E R : At 11.93 D ic k M o k o e n a was in jured wi th a

shotgun wound .

MR B U T H E L E Z I : P a r d o n ? *' ' \

MR B E R G E R : Dick M o k o e n a .

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I do not k n o w tha t pe r son .

MR B E R G ER : The next dav a f t e r t he a t t a ck , are you saving tha t

you have no k no wl e dg e o f a n y t h i ng be ing bu r n t ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I did not k n o w wh e re t he se goo ds , the place,

the cpGt wh er e these g o o d s we ie , b u r n t .

MR BEPi GER: But you do k n o w tha t g o o d s we re burn t?


MR B E R G E R : G o od s wh i ch w e r e s to l en f rom Bo i pa to ng .

MR B U TH E L E Z T : Yes.

MR B E R G E R - Who gave the o r d e r t ha t t h o s e g o o ds should be

hurnt, do you know?

MR BUTHF.T.F.Z1 • In the r o o m t h a t I was s t ay ing Da ma r ra came

in

MRJ BE RGF . R- Yes?

MR BERGER 1766 S AjBUTHELEZI

Vp-REENIGING HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

^ p _ _ B U T H E L E ZI : He t o l d us t ha t i f we had t aken s om e t h i n g

from B o i pa t on g , we sh ou ld t a k e it to t he s t ad i um so that it cou ld

be burnt.

\TR B E R G E R : And was any th i ng t a ke n f rom your room to the

stadium?


MR B E R G E R : W ho had s to l en s t u f f f rom Bo i p a to n g and wha t

had they s tolen.

iMR B U T H E L E Z I : Hol l i e Baj os i b r o u g h t a video machine-,

Skubuzo had a b l anke t , t ha t is all.

MR B E R G E R : And D a m a r r a said tha t t he se g oo d s must be t a ke n

to the s t ad i um t o be b u r n t ? j |

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes , he said anyone who had s tolen p r o p e r t y

from B o ip a to n g , t ha t shou l d be t a k e n to the s tadium.

#MR B E R GE R : When you we nt to the mee t ing at the s t ad i um,

had the g o o d s a l r eady been bu rn t ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I h op e so.

MR B E R G E R : But you don ' t know.

MJLB E R G E R : N o , I don ' t kn ow.

MjL_BERGER: Isn' t it t ha t T h e mb a K h o s a gave the i n s t ru c t i o n

that the g o o d s shou ld be bu r n t and the w ea po n s shou ld be

dest royed? I beg y o u r p a rd o n , the e v i denc e l inking you to the

at tack on B o i p a t o n g , shou l d be d e s t r o y ed ?

M R BERGER 1767 SAÛTHELEZI

ve r e e n ig in g HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

]vfR B U T H E L E Z I : No , t h a t is not Mr T h e m b a Kh o sa ' s

i ns t ruc t ion , t ha t was not M r T h e m b a Kh o s a ' s i n s t ruc t i on .

jUR B E R G E R . Wh a t was his i n s t ru c t i o n ?

]UR B U T H E L E Z I : Mr T h e m b a K ho s a came and I hea r d him

saying t h a t t hey we re s ho ck ed a b ou t t he B o i p a t o n g i nc iden t and

he w a n t e d t o k n ow if wc had any k n o w l e d g e as to wh o did tha t ,

who was in vo l v ed in tha t i nc ide n t and e ve r yone den ied hav ing

a n y k n o w l e d g e to thr.t e f f e c t si

MR B E R G E R . Why?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : N o - o n e w a n t e d to be a r r e s t ed at t ha t t ime.

MR B E R G E R : Bu t when T h e m b a K h o s a spoke the po l i ce w e r e

%nut in t he s t ad i um, we r e t h e y ? |

\MR B U T H E L E Z I : I t h ink po l i c e we r e t he re on tha t p a r t i c u l a r

day.

MR B E R G E R : Did you deny y o u r i nvo l vemen t b e c a u s e you k ne w

that such an a t t a c k wou l d not b e a p p r o v e d by T h e m b a K ho s a , is

that why you den ied it?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, we den i ed ou r i nvo l vemen t t h e r e in t ha t

part icular inc ident .

CH A I R P E R S O N : No, t he q u e s t i o n is, did you deny y o u r

"ivolyement in the a t t a ck b e c a u s e you k new that T h e m b a K h o s a

'•’•ould not have a p p ro v e d the a t t a c k on B o i p a t o n g ?

MR BERGER 1768 S AÛTHELEZI

F-REENIGING HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

vTR_ B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, Mr Khosa , I am sure t ha t he wou ldn ' t

approve and he woul dn ' t be happy i f he had k n o w n tha t we were

the p e op l e w h o did that .

MR B E R G E R : You knew tha t on t he 18th o f J une 1992?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Will you p l ease r epea t t he q ue s t i o n , Sir?

MR B E R G E R : Did you k no w t ha t on the 18th o f J une 1992, that

Themba K h o s a wou l dn ' t have been happy i f he had k no wn that

you we r e r e s po ns ib l e for t h e ' a t t a c k ?i

MR B U T H E L E Z I : That is my view.

MR B E R G E R : Did Mr Mk hi ze give an i n s t r u c t i o n t ha t the g oo ds

looted f r om B o i p a t o n g s h o u l d :.be burn t ?

IMR B U T H E L E Z I : I don' t ' kôw but in ou r ro om, Mr Da ma r ra

c a m e .

MR B E R G E R : So would you a n sw e r at p a g e 188 w he r e you say:

Ques t ion 5.1:

"Mr Khosa did not g ive such a wa rn i n g , this warn ing

was given by D a m a r r a and M k h i ze . "

Would the r e f e r en ce to Mkhize t h e r e be w r o n g ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, I can say so.

ADV S I G O D I : Did you know M r Mk hi ze ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I - Yes.

ADV S I G O D I : No, at the t ime, did you k n o w him, at t he t ime o f

the a t t a ck ?

MR BERGER 1769 SAfiUTHELEZI


^ tr B U T H E L E Z I : Yes , Se r a me p o i n t e d him to me at the

stadium.

a d V S I G O D I . Thanks .

M R B E R G E R : This is t he n ight o f t he a t t a c k , the night o f the

17th9


MR B E R G E R : Thank you, M r Bu t h e l e z i , I have no fu r the r

quest ions. 4i

NO F U R T H E R Q U E S T I O N S BY M R B E R G E R

C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr Mal indi?

C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N B Y M R M A L I N D I : Thank you,

IChai rperson. ' |

Mr Bu t he l ez i , i t ' s y o u r e v i den ce t ha t you were not a

member o f the IFP before the l 7th o f J une 1992.

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Are you t a l k i ng ab ou t J une or July?

MR M A L I N D I : 17 June 1992.

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, I was not an IFP m e m be r at the t ime.

MR M A L I N D I : And the only conf l i c t you had had wi th the ANC

was the one involv ing Dot i and S k os a n a ?


CH A I R P E R S O N : Did you b e c o m e a me mb e r o f the IFP

subsequent to tha t , that is s u b s e q u e n t to t he 17th o f June 1992?

MR_BUTHELEZI: I b eca me a m e m be r on the 17th.

ÛiJ^ A L I N D I : Thank you, C h a i r p e r so n .

MR BERGER 1770 S A£UTHELEZI


To the ex t en t t ha t yo u a p p r o v e d o f this a t t a ck on

go ipa tong , it was b e c a u se you w e r e m o t i v a t e d by the des i re to

avenge what Do t i and S k o s a n a had d one to you?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : No, deep in my hear t I did not l ike the idea, I

was not for the idea o f a t t a c k i n g at B o ip a to n g .

MR M A L I N D I : And you d idn ' t w a n t - t o t ak e avenge in any form

for what Dot i and S k o s a n a had d o n e to you?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I w o u ld t^y and - I wou l d r evenge at Zo ne 12.

MR M A L I N D I : So in o t h e r w o r d s , you can ' t put f o r wa rd any

reason why you a t t a c k e d B o i p a t o n g your se l f ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : My r e a s o ^ to go to B o i p a t o n g is b eca us e Mr

iDamarra said open l y t ha t a main t h a t be left behind or t ha t would

be left in the ya rd whi l e the o t h e r men go to B o ip a t on g , tha t man,

llio one who w o u ld be left in B o j p a t o n g - the man that wou l d be

left in the hos te l w h e r ea s o th e r men had g on e f ight ing, t ha t man it

would be his ve ry last day.

MR M A L I N D I : Af te r you he a r d ab ou t N o se n g a ' s ex i s t ence , did

you go up to him, N o s c n g a ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, I wen t up to him.

MIL M A L I N D I : When you go t to him and q u es t i oned him, who

else was wi th you?

MILBU T H E L E Z I : It was a n u m b e r o f us.

MiLMA L I N D I : Any names t ha t you can r e me mb er ?

n1r MALINDI 1771 S A^BUTHELEZI

N FREENIGING HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

g j l _ B U T H E L E Z I : It was t he l a te M t wa l a and Tzwee , Papie ,

Doti, Shemi and M a t a n a n a and Chanke . Ch anke is J ose ph

R a d e b e .

MJL.M A L I N D I : Was M r R i c ha rd DIamini a ny wh e r e near N o s e n g a

at that t ime?

YtR B U T H E L E Z I : No, I did not see him.

MR M AL I ND I : We r e Vusi and S p o n g o l o n a also t here?

MR BUT_H E L E Z I : T h o u g h T c a n n o t r e me mb e r very wel l , as we\

w e i e coming t o w a r d s him I did not see the p e op le who wer e in his

company.

MR M A L I N DI. At t ha t t ime was N o s e n g a t a ke n anywhere , a f t e r

you q ue s t i oned him? 1 f\

MR_ B U T H E L E Z I : Do you mean on tha t p a r t i c u l a r dav?

MR M A L I N D I : On tha t p a r t i c u l a r day and spec i f i ca l ly at the

t i me when you w e r e pa r t o f the g r o u p q ue s t i on in g him.

MR B U T H E L E Z I : He came t h e re and he j o i n e d us. He s t ood

there as we w e r e wa sh i n g the cars .

ME—M A L I N D I : So as far as you are co nce rn e d , on this

part icular day, the day tha t you q u e s t i o n ed him, he was not t aken

>o any per son , he j u s t lay a r o u nd the p remises o f K w am ad a la ?

Mj j JBUTHE LE ZI : As we we r e t he re wi th him, in the even ing a

Meeting was held.

J H - M A X I n D I : The me e t in g was held in o r d e r to ad d r e ss the

Nosenga i ssue?

MR MALINDI 1772 s A •BUTHELEZI

x EREENIGING HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

^fR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes.

I N T E R P R E T E R : W i l l t h e s p e a k e r p l e a s e r e p e a t t h e p r e v i o u s

question.

M R M A L I N D I : Was this m e e t i ng held to d i scuss the N o s e n g a

issue?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes , and the o t he r sub j ec t s we re to be

discussed.

MR M A L I N D I : Up unt i l thi s mee t ing was cal l ed, you had seeni

N o s e n g a w a l k i n g a b o u t t h e p r e m i s e s , h e w a s n o t h a n d e d o v e r t o

a n y o n e ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I can see N o s e n g a was s hocked .

M_R .M A L I N D I ; And at t h i s | mee t ing , was this mee t ing on the

same day on w h i c h you f i rst met N o s e n g a and you w e r e par t o f

tliis i n t e r r o g a t i n g g r o u p ?


MR M A L I N D I : I don ' t r e m e m b e r i f I 've a sked this ques t i on ,

where was this m e e t i n g held?

Mil B U T H E L E Z I : The me e t i n g s was held at K w a m a d a l a hos te l

at the s t adium.

MR^ M A L I N D I : And who deal t wi th the N o s e n g a i ssue at this

meet ing?

M i L B U T H E L E Z I : M r T h e m b a n k o s i K h u m a l o .

MiLM A L I N D I : And N o s e n g a was at the s t ad i um also?

MILB U T H E L E Z I : Yes , he w a s ' a l s o p resent .

MR MALINDI 1773 S A^BUTHELEZI

VEREENIG1NG HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

MR M A L I N D I : And w he r e had he come f r om b e f o r e he

presented h i m s e l f at t he s t ad i um?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d y o u r q u e s t i o n .

MR M A L I N D I : Did N o s e n g a go to the s t ad i um l ike a n y o n e else

when the m e e t i n g wa s cal led?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : N o s e n g a wen t to the IFP C o m m i t t e e .

MR M A L I N D I : Did he p r e s en t h imse l f to the c o m m i t t e e or how

did he get to go to t he c ommi t t e e?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : He came to the s t ad i um wi t h the C o m m i t t e e . '

C H A I R P E R S O N : I th ink the ques t i on - wa sn ' t y o u r qu e s t i on

how did, did he go on his own to the Commi t t ee .

MR M A L I N D I : Yes , t ha t w a s my ques t i on , Sir.

MR B U T H E L E Z I : P e o p l e came to fe tch him.

MR M A L I N D I : W ho fe t ched him?

MR BI JTHELEZT I c anno t r e m e m be r t hose peop le .

MR M A L I N D I - Yo u y o u r s e l f did not see N o s e n g a be in g t aken

away and be ing t a k e n to the IFP Co mmi t t e e?

MR B U T H E L E Z I No.

MiLMA L I N D I : T h a n k you, Cha i rpe r son , no f u r t h e r que s t i on s .

^ F U R T H E R Q U E S T I O N S BY MR M A L I N D I

CjjAJR P E R S O N : Th an k you.

MiLCA M B A N I S : N o q ues t i ons , Cha i rpe r son .

^Q- QU E S T I O N S BY MS C A M B A N I S

U l A l R P E R S O N : Mr M a p o m a ?

MR MALINDI 1774 S AJ3UTHELEZI

'' ,IREENIGING HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

r R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N BY MR M A P O M A : T h a nk you, Sir.

As at the 17th o f June 1992, ho w many o f you were

occupant s in the r o o m tha t you we r e o c cu p y i n g ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : It is ve ry di f f icul t f o r me to say bu t it was a

lot o f us.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u ' r e not be ing a ske d ab o u t t he hos t e l as a

whole, you ' r e be ing a sked abou t the r o o m t ha t you o c cup i e d .

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Do you wa nt to k n o w h o w many peop le

occupied one r oom, is t ha t your q ue s t i on ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : O c cu p ie d the r o o m wh i ch you also occup i ed .

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I f I 'm n o t . m i s t a k e n I t h ink we w e r e ab ou t 10I

or 13. ' i*

MR M A P O M A : And I t ake it t ha t in the l ight o f Da ma r ra

a s s e i t i d i that every man mus t go and a t t a c k B o i p a t o n g , all your*

roommates did p a r t i c i pa t e in the a t t a ck , am I r ight?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, t ha t is co r r ec t .

MR M A P O M A : And o f all yo u r r o o m m a t e s , i t ' s only t h ree o f

you, that is y o u r s e l f and the t wo twins who did not a t t e nd the

Ulundi c on f e r en c e s ub se q ue n t to the a t t a ck , is t ha t c o r r e c t ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, tha t is c o r r ec t .

MR_ M A P 0 M A : And yo ur r o o m m a t e s who a t t e n d e d the Ulundi

conference, were they neces sa r i l y d e l e ga t e s for t ha t c o n f e r e nc e or

Uere they j u s t a t t e nd in g the c o n f e r e nc e as i n t e r e s t e d pe r s on s?

MR_B U T H E L E Z I : I t h ink th e y ' w e n t t he re as i n t e r e s t e d people .

MRMALINDI 1775 S A ̂ BUTHELEZI


]vTR M A P O M A : Why did you no t a t t e n d the c o n f e r en c e ?

M R B U T H E L E Z I : I w a s n o t i n t e r e s t e d .

MR M A P O M A : Thank you, C h a i r p e r s o n , I have no fu r the r

que s t i ons .

NTO F U R T H E R Q U E S T I O N S B Y M R M A P O M A

C H A I R P E R S O N : Any r e - e x a m i n a t i o n ?

R F. - E XAMI NAT I ON BY MR S T R Y D O M : This i n t e r r o g a t i o n

which was r e f e r r ed to which; yo u had wi th M r N o s e n g a , was thati

an informal s i t ua t ion or was it a fo rmal s i t ua t i on , l ike -a

commi t t ee s i t ua t i on?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : We w o u ld ask q u e s t i o n s r andomly .

IMR S T R Y D O M : N o w w h | n M r N o s e n g a said t ha t he was

planted in the hos te l as a spy and tha t he should look for places

where he cou ld plar.t bombs and all t ha t , did you be l i eve him?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, we b e l i e ve d him b e c a u s e t he re were

threats all the t ime.

MR S T R Y D O M : When you a r r i v e d at the hos te l wi th D o c t o r and

•Jabulani, did you ar r ive by car?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : No, we u s ed publ i c t r a n s p o r t , we used taxis

and we a l igh ted at the robo t s .

MR S T R Y D O M : You s t a t ed t ha t the i n s t ru c t i o n to a t t a c k was

given by Da mar ra , now if no o r d e r was given by him to a t t a ck

^ o ipa tong , wou l d you have a t t a c k e d B o i p a t o n g out o f y o u r own

freewill?

MR MAPOMA 1776 S A BUTHELEZI

V'EREENIG1NG HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

y _R B U T H E L E Z I : No , we w o u l d not a t t ack .

MR S T R Y D O M : Did you r ea l i se at t ha t s t age tha t D a m a r r a was

one o f the l eader s at t he h os t e l ?


MR S T R Y D O M : You t e s t i f i e d a b ou t t h r e e sho t s which you f i red

in the beg inn ing s t ages o f t he a t t a c k and l a t e r on you went to

Siovo Pa rk , did you see any c o m r a d e s in Slovo Park , or did you

find any c omr a des in S lovo^Park?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : The c o m r a d e s at the s t r ee t tha t i n t e r s ec t s the

Slovo Pa rk and B o i p a t o n g , t he y j u m p e d to the side o f the shacks

and they d i sappea red .I

MR S T R Y D O M : A f t e r ' ^ h e y d i s a p p e a r e d , did you see t hem

again?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : No, we did no t see t he m again.0

MR S T R Y D O M : Do you k n o w or did you see whe r e D o c t o r and

Jabulani f i red shots w i t h t he i r s h o t gu n s?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : No , I did no t see t hem shoot ing .

MR S T R Y D O M : A pa r t f rom your se l f , D o c t o r and Jabulani , do

you know if o t he r p e op l e a l so had s ho t guns?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : The p e r s o n t ha t I r e me m be r s ee ing was Mr

Mkhize.

MR S T R Y D O M : Apa r t f rom him - let me ask you, did you k no w

exact ly wha t w e a p o n each o f t he a t t a c k e r s had wi th t hem?

C H A I R P E R S O N : M r S t r y d o m , wha t is the ques t i on?

MR STRYDOM 1777 S A BUTHELEZI


MR S T R Y D O M : I f he k n e w t he w e a p o n s o f each one o f the

a t t ackers .

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w e r e a p p r o x i ma t e l y 300 a t t a c k e r s the

evidence indica tes , so do yo u w a n t him to tell us wha t e ac h one

of t hese men had?

MR S T R Y D O M : C h a i r p e r s o n , I know that the a n s w e r is

obvious ly no, but i f t ha t is t he s i t u a t i o n he won ' t k n o w i f o t he r

people also had sh o t gu n s . i T h a t is bas ica l ly the point I w an t to

make. I can j us t put it s t r a i g h t away .

Do you k n ow i f s ome o f the o th e r a t t a cke r s had s ho t g u ns

with them?

%MR B U T H E L E Z I : No , i t ; $ a s qu i t e a large number o f peop le .

The only pe r son tha t was in f r on t o f me was Mr Mkhize .

MR S T R Y D O M . I ' ve go t no f u i t h e i ques t i ons , ihank you.

NO F U R T H E R Q U E S T I O N S B Y M R S T R Y D O M

MS P R E T O R I U S : No q u e s t i o n s .

NO Q U E S T I O N S BY MS P R E T O R I U S

MR DA S I L V A : N o q u e s t i o n s , M r Chai rman.

NO Q U E S T I O N S BY M R D A S I L V A

FURTHER C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N BY MS T A N Z E R : Jus t two

or three.

Who re l a t ed to you t he even t t ha t N o s e n g a was on the s t age

at Ulundi?

INTE R P R E T E R : Will t he s p e a k e r p l ease r epea t the q ue s t i on ?


MR STRYDOM 1778 S A BUTHELEZI

MS T A N Z E R : Wh o r e l a t ed to you the event tha t N o s e n g a was

on the s t age at Ulund i?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : It was J o s e p h Radebe .

M S T A N Z E R : Did N o s e n g a tel l you abou t this when he r e t u r n e d

from Ulund i?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : No , M r N o s e n g a did not men t i on tha t to me.

MS T A N Z E R : Did you no t ask him ques t i ons abou t be ing on the

s tage in Ulundi? I mean i t ' s qu i t e an honour .

MR B U T H E L E Z I : No , I did not ask him ques t i on , t he p e op l e

were j u s t d i scuss ing . I did not ask him a ques t i on .

MS T A N Z E R : Did he e ve r tel l you tha t at the hos t e l y ou p e o p l e

were t h a n k ed for the g o o d | w o r k done in B o i p a t o n g , by C h i e f

\M a n g a s o t h o Bu t h e lez i himsel f?


MS T A N Z E R : N o w on y o u r Version N o s e n g a j o i ne d the hos t e l

after the a t t a ck , t ha t is c o r r e c t r ight?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes , t ha t is cor rec t .

MS_T A N Z E R : W o u l d you say that he go t his i n f o r ma t io n

relat ing to the a t t a ck f rom his fe l low r o o m m a t e s and hos t e l

dwel lers?

MR_iL U T H E L E Z I : I t h ink he go t tha t i n f o r ma t ion f rom the o t h e r

hostel dwel l e r s .

MS TANZER 1779 S A BUTHELEZI


MS T A N Z E R : Do you th ink tha t in fact he p i eced t o g e t h e r the

a t t ack on B o i p a t o n g f rom i n f o r m a t i o n he ob t a ined , r e su l t i n g in

the s t a t e m e n t ?


MS T A N Z E R : Then is it not c o r r e c t t ha t even i f y o u r v e r s i o n is

cor rec t and t rue , you are not r e l a t i ng an i mpor t an t fact to this

Commi t t e e and tha t is t ha t the po l i ce we re involved in the a t t a ck

of B o i p a t o n g ? *i

MR B U T H E L E Z I : The pol i ce w e r e not p re sen t and the so ld i e r s

were not p r e s e n t d u r i n g the a t t a ck at B o ip a to n g .

MS T A N Z E R : We r e you p a r t o f V ic t o r Keswa ' s h i t - sq ua d or*

g a n g ? ; |K


MS T A N Z E R : N o f a r t h e r ques t i ons .

NO F U R T H E R Q U E S T I O N S BY MS T A N Z E R

C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr Lax.

MR L A X : T h a n k s , Chai r , j u s t t w o qu ick ques t i ons .

Yo u said t ha t a n umber o f you wen t out to the r o b o t s ear ly

in the m o r n i n g on the 18th whe n you s us pe c t e d some sor t o f an

at tack, did I hea r it co r r ec t ly?

MR L A X : H o w many o f you wen t ou t t he re?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : It was qui t e a l a rge number o f people .

MR L A X : M o r e than 50, mo r e t han 100?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I t h i n k it Was mo r e t h a n 1 00.

MS TANZER 1780 S A BUTHELEZI


MR L A X : And how did you ge t mar sha l l ed o u t , w ho b r ou gh t

you t o g e t h e r so tha t you k n e w ab o u t t he se t h i ngs t h a t you we nt

out t h e r e ? In o t h e r words , who cal l ed you t o g e t h e r ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : It was Mr Da mar ra .

MR_L A X : And tha t ' s when you w e r e r e - i s s u ed wi th y ou r

s ho t gun?


MR L A X : The s econd issue was the q u e s t i o n o f N o s e n g a , youi

were q u e s t i o n i n g him and you said they came and f e t ch ed h i m- to

the C o m m i t t e e , do you r e me mb er t ha t ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, I do r e m e m b e r that .

MR L A X : W h e r e did they-fjptch him f ron ?\

MR B U T H E L E Z I : He was f e t ched f rom the room.

MR—L A X . ^ o a f t e r you chaps Iidu f in i shed t a lk ing io him you

went b ack to the room?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Will you p l ease r e pe a t y o u r q u e s t i o n , Sir?

MR LAX: Did you go back io the r o o m a f t e r you had f ini shed

ta lking to him or ask ing him q u e s t i o n s e tc?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, we went back to the room.

CH A I R P E R S O N : A d v oc a t e S igodi?

AD V S I G O D I : You say that you went to the h o s t e l for the f irst

t ime on the 17th of June.

MT B U T H E L E Z I : Yes.

AJ>V S I G O D I . Had you b een -to t he h o s t e 1 b e fo r e t ha t da te?

COMMITTEE 1781 S A BUTHELEZI



ADV S I G O D I : Did you have f r i ends s t ay i ng at t he hos t e l , did

you k n o w anyone be fo re £.oing to t he hos t e l ?


ADV S I G O D I : Who did you k n o w b e f o r e g o i ng to s t ay t he re?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : The re ' s a g e n t l e m a n ca l l ed T a b a ng tha t I used

to k n o w and one gen t l eman ca l l ed B o n o , the o t h e r one was

Fal tein. *\

ADV S I G O D I : Al r ight , but w e r e you a f r eque n t v i s i t o r to die

hostel b e f o r e s taying t he re?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I was -.not a f r e q u e n t v i s i t o r t he re at the;*

hostel . > |i

ADV S I G O D I : And be f o r e t he a t t a c k we r e you ac t i ve in

politics?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : N o .

ADV S I G O D I : And this d i f f e r ence b e t w e e n you and Dot i and

Skosana, why do you th ink that it was a po l i t i ca l d i f f e r ence?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I knew very wel l t ha t S k o s a n a and Dot i we re

wel l -known people at Zone 12, each and e ve r yo n e at Zo ne 12

(-new them at tlie t ime.

-Myy S I G O D I : No, but why do you a sc r i be y ou r d i f f e r ence wi th

’hem to be ing a pol i t ical d i f f e r ence?

^-B^B U T H E L E Z I : It is sole ly b e c a u s e t hey said Stals was a

^ mber o f IFP, that was Smith.


F-REENIGING HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

ADV S I G O D I : But when you w'ent to j o i n the hos te l you were

not an IFP member .

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, I was n o t ye t a member .

ADV S I G O D I : You j o i n e d on t h a t day.


ADV S I G O D I : Did you s ubmi t y o u r name to so meb o d y , saying

that you we r e jo in ing the IFP?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, t h o u g h I c a n n o t r e me mb e r the name of\

the pe r son but I was i ssued a card.

ADV S I G O D I : Why did you j o i n t he IFP?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : I t ’s b e c a us e t he p e op le were a ccus ing me o f

being an IFP member . > £\

ADV S I G O D I : Yes, but was it n e c e s sa r y to j o i n as an IFP

member on tha t day? Le t me pu t ii i ins way, you w e i e oniy

seeking r e f uge in the hos te l , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?


ADV SI GO DI : It wasn ' t n e c e s s a r y for you to j o in as an IFP

member on tha t p a r t i c u l a r day, is it c o r r e c t ?

M_R_ B U T H E L E Z I : Yes , t h e r e w a s no n e e d fo r me t o j o i n the

IFP.

u-Dy_SIGODI: Why did you c h o o s e t ha t day to j o in and become

«n IFP member?

J i i _ B U T H E L E Z I : In the t o w n s h i p a l r eady they were accus ing

!5ie o f being an I FP member .



ADV S I G O D I : Did you ag r e e wi th t he IFP pol i c i es? Did you

know the IFP pol ice?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : No , I did not know.

ADV S I G O D I : Did you k n ow who we r e the l eade r s o f the IFP?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes , I k ne w the leader .

ADV S I G O D I : Who was the l e ade r ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : It was D o c t o r M a n g a s o t h o Buthe l ez i .

ADV S I G O D I : Al r ight . And you say t ha t when you j o i ned the

group to go and a t t a ck in B o i p a t o n g , you we re not real ly keen or

deep d o wn in you you we re not for the a t t a ck on the SDUs, is

that c o r r e c t ?*

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Will yoi p l e a s e r e p e a t y ou r ques t i on?A

ADV S I G O D I : You say tha t you did not al ign y o u r s e l f wi th the

idea o f a t t a c k i n g ihe Se i f D e fe nc e Uni t s in B o i p a t o n g on that

night? You didn' t k n o w a ny t h i ng ab o u t the a t t a ck be f o r e then.

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, I knew no t h i ng abou t the a t t ack .

ADV S I G O D I : And so you only wen t t he re to a t t a ck s imply

because you were s ca red o f t h r e a t s by D a m a r r a C ho nc o that you

would be ki l led i f you did not j o i n the a t t a ck , is t ha t co r r ec t ?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, t ha t is c o r r ec t .

ADV S I G O D I : Th an k you, Ch a i r pe r so n .

CH A I R P E R S O N : Mr S i banyoni?

MJLS I B A N Y O N I : Th an k you, M r Ch a i r pe r so n .


\ f r e e n ig in g h e a r in g s AMNESTY/GAUTENG

Wh e n N o s e n g a to ld you a d i f f e r en t s to ry than the one tha t

he was sent by t he ANC to p l an t the bombs , did t hese even t s

happen whe n you w e r e w a sh i n g t he car , on the same day or was it

on di f f erent days?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : As I was q u es t i o n i n g him as to wha t was the

reason for him to c om e t o K w a m a d a l a hostel , we we r e still

washing the car s and he t o ld me tha t the people w ho we re

accusing him o f be ing an IFP member .i

When I hea r d f r om C h u nk i e the fo l l owi ng day he said the

reason for t ha t p e r s o n to c om e to K w a m a d a l a hostel was to ass i s t

the poss ib i l i ty o f p l a n t i n g bombs . I wen t back to him and I said;

%Sir, I a sked you t he r e a s o n s s y e s t e r d a y and you told me t h a t the

\people who we re a c c u s in g you o f be ing, you told me t ha t you

v/ere be ing a c c u s e d o f be ing a.i IFP member whe rea s you k n o w

very well t ha t you w e r e t h e r e to ch ec k w h e t h e r you can p l an t s the

bombs. And he to l d me t ha t he was af ra id to tell me the t ru t h .

MR S I B A N Y O N I : So w'hen you c o n f r o n t e d him o f hav ing told

you a lie, was it a l so at the spo t w h e r e you were wash ing car s?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : We we r e in the house , in the r oo m when I

was asking him t ha t q u e s t i on .

MR S I B A N Y O N T - Ear l ier in y o u r ev i dence when you we re a sked

about the shot you d i r e c t e d at a house , I heard you saying that

you d i r ec t i ng it at t he d i n i n g - ro o m, but u nd e r c ro s s - e x a m i n a t io n



you say you d i r ec t ed it at t he b ed r oom. Did I u n d e r s t a n d you

cor rec t ly?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : No, yo u did not hear me well .

\1R S I B A N Y O N I : Y o u said N o s e n g a was left to l ive in the

hostel b e c a u s e he was a s k e d by an e lder ly pe r son at Ul und i and he

said t ha t he was an IFP p e r s on , he was no lo ng e r ANC, did

Nosenga b e c o m e a me mb e r p f the IFP?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes , h e ' b e c a m e an IFP member .i

MR S I B A N Y O N I : At w h a t s t age , when did he b e c o m e a m e m b e r

of the IFP?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Af t e r t h e . c o n f e r e n c e in Ulundi

MR S I B A N Y O N I : Th an k yoy , no f u r t he r ques t i ons , C h a i r p e r s o n .

CHAI R. PERSON: Is t he re any t h i ng ar i s ing?

r URTMER C R O S S - E X A M I N / V E I O N BY MR B E R G E R :

C ha i rp e r s on , t he r e ' s j u s t one ques t i on and i t ' s for

c lar i f icat ion only.

Mr Bu t he l ez i , the M k h i z e that you saw a rmed wi t h a

shotgun, t ha t ' s Bh ek i n k o s i M kh iz e , am I r ight?

M R J 3 U T H E L E Z I : Yes, I s aw him wi th an AK47 rifle.

J-R_LAX: Sor ry , the q u e s t i o n was, which Mk hi ze did you see

u >th a s h og u n ? We ' re t ry i ng to clar i fy which M k h i z e you saw

u ' th a sho tgun .

^ - J L B U T H E L E Z I : N o - o n e w as a rmed wi th a s h o t g un , it was

0n|y a rifle.


' ere e n ig in g HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

jylR BERGER 1787 S a BUTHELEZI

MR L A X : So tha t was B h ek i n k o s i M kh i z e t ha t had an A K 4 7?

MR B U T H E L E Z I : It is Arch ie ' s one.

r H A I R P E R S O N : "It ' s my c o - ap p l i ca n t , yes . "

MR B U T H E L E Z I : It is my c o - a c c u se d .

MR B E R G E R : I 'm sorry, Ch a i r pe r so n .

In a n s w e r to g q ue s t i on by y o u r counse l unde r , r e

exami na t ion as to who e l se ' h ad s ho t guns , you men t i oned a p e r s o n

by the n am e o f Mkhize , and I wan t to k n o w that Mk h ize , is it

Bhek i nkos i Mkhi ze , your c o - a cc u se d .

MR B U T H E L E Z I : Yes, I t h o u g h t you we r e r e fe r r i ng to a rif le.

I jus t said he had a f i r earm, | did not k n o w tha t he was r e f e r r i n g! I

speci f ical ly to the size o f t h e ^ i r e a r m .

MR B E R G E R : Thank you, no f u r t he r ques t i ons .

NO F U R T H E R Q U E S T I O N S B Y M R B E R G E R

C H A I R P E R S O N : Anyth ing a r i s ing?

MR S T R Y D O M : No f u r t he r ques t i ons .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Very well . Th an k you, M r But he l ez i , you may

stand down.

WI TNE SS E X C U S E D

V'EREENIGING HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

1788

T R U T H AN]? R E C O N C I L I A T I O N C O M M I S S I O N

A M N E S T Y H E A R I N G

P A T E : 2 6 TH J A N U A R Y 1999

N A M E : P A U L O S M V I G E L E N I MBATI 1A

A P P L I C A T I O N N O : A M 6 1 2 1 / 9 7

M A T T E R : B O I P A T O N G M A S S A C R E

DAY: 7

MR S T R Y D O M : C ha i rp e r s on , the next app l i can t is P a u l os

Mbatha.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Pau los M b a t h a , yes.

MACHINE S W I T C H E D OFF \

C H A I R P E R S O N : Very wel l , we wil l t ak e a b r e ak now, we will

come back at q u a r t e r to five.

CO M M I T T E E A D J O U R N S

ON R E S U M P T I O N

CHAI RPERSON- This a f t e r n o o n we p r o p o s e j u s t hear ing the

L-vidence-in-chief o f Mr Mba t ha . Thi s is Mr M b a t h a , is it?

•MJLSTR Y D Q M : Yes, Ch a i r pe r son .

UAj j l PE RSON: And then the c r o s s - e x a m i n a t i o n can then

° inmence t o m o r r o w morn i ng , un l e ss o f c o u r s e counse l is

- ' "i iusiast ic to s tar t immedia te ly .

1 REEN1GING HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

MU STRYDOM 1789 M MBATHA

MR_B.ERGER: Speak ing for m y s e l f I . . . ( i nd i s t i nc t ) .

CH A I R P E R S O N : Yes, very wel l .

M r Mb at h a , what are y o u r full n ames ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is it Mvule l en i o r Mvi ge l en i ?

MR M B A T H A : Mvigeleni .

PAULOS M V I G E L E N I M B A T H A : ( s w o r n s t a t es )

C H A I R P E R S O N : Thank you, you may be sea ted .

Yes , Mr S t r ydom? i

MR S T R Y D O M : Cha i rpe r son , j u s t b e f o r e I s t ar t , in the bund le

you w ou l d only find two pages r e l a t i n g to this app l i can t and that

is page 209 and 210. That is j ̂ r e q u e s t for f u r t h e r pa r t i cu l a r s ., $

At the beg inn ing o f this s e s s i o n a b und l e o f d o c u m e n t s in

relat ion to this appl icant was h a n d ed to t he C o m mi t t e e and all

other pa r t i e s , which includes a F o r m 1, t he a nn e xu r e , his r ep ly to

the f u r t h e r pa r t i cu l a r s and an a f f i dav i t by t he appl i cant . I

suggest , Cha i rp e r so n , that we ma rk the d o c u m e n t s 2 1 0 ( a ) to

210(i) .

CHA I R P E R S O N : Mr St rydom, I 'm still s t r u g g l i n g to get hold o f

those doc umen t s . I know tha t t hey we r e fu r n i shed to us - oh, I

beg your pa rdon , yes very wel l , I do have t h o s e d o c u m e n t s now.

That cons i s t o f Form 1 . . . ( i n t e r v e n t i o n )

MR_S T R Y D O M : Yes, C ha i r p e r so n , i f .. . ( i n t e rv e n t i o n )

CHAIR P E R S O N : Which is d a t ed the 7th o f A ug u s t 1998.

x EREENIGING HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

MR STRYDOM 1790 # M MBATHA

MR S T R Y D O M : Yes, C h a i r p e r s o n , my s ugges t i on is tha t we

mark F o r m 1: 2 10 ( a ) (b) and (c) .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Any o b j e c t i o n to t ha t c ou rs e? So Form 1 will

be marked - did you say ...

MR S T R Y D O M : 210(a ) (b) and (c) , and the annexur e to that

Form 1, 2 1 0 ( d ) and (e).

C H A I R P E R S O N : Right . -

MR S T R Y D O M : The f u r t h e r p a r t i c u l a r s , 210( f ) and (g) , and

lastly the af f idavi t , 210(h) and (i).

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yes, very wel l .

MR S T R Y D O M : Thank y o u- ^C ha i r pe r s on .

C H A I R P E R S O N : There i$ st i l l no s ign o f Mr Sibongeleni

Mkhize?

MR S T R Y D O M : Cha i rp e r so n , s ince t he beg inn ing I 've i n s t r uc t ed

the other ap p l i c an t s to t ry and ge t ho ld o f him and to warn him to

be here. At this s t age the re is st i l l no sign.

U1A I R P E R S O N : Okay. Yes , v e r y wel l , p roceed .

EXAMIN A T I O N BY MR S T R Y D O M - Th a nk you.

Mr Mba t ha , I want you to h av e a l ook at the so-ca l l ed For m

*' * m going to show you y our s i g n a t u r e on page 210(c) . Do you

L° nfirm your s igna t u re?

'ULMBATHA: Yes.

fREENlGlNG HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

Mjl_ S T R Y D O M : And do a l so c on f i r m the con t en t s o f this

do c u me n t as it has been t r a n s l a t e d to you?

\ I R M B A T H A : Yes.

MR S T R Y D O M : In p a r a g r a p h 9.4 y ou s t a t ed :

"I had a spear . I wa s pa r t o f Chonco ' s group. I

s t abbed t wo peop le . T h e one p e r s o n died, the o t he r

one ran a w a y . "

Do you conf i rm tha t ? *i

MR M B A T H A : Yes.

MR S T R Y D O M : In p a r a g r ap h 11(b) you s t a t ed :

"I heard for the f i r s t t ime o f the a t t a ck on the 17th o fI

J une 1992, at .* tlê s t ad i um. Ch o n c o said that we4

should a t t a ck B o i p a t o n g b e c a us e we had e nough o f

the peop l e f r om B o i p a t o n g . "

Is that r igh t ?

MR M B A T H A - Yes.

MR S T R Y D O M : N o w t he r e ' s a l so an a n n e x u r e to this Form 1,

which is ac t ua l l y a reply to s ome o f the ques t i ons in this

document . Do you ag r e e wi th t he c o n t e n t s o f the answer s as

they’ve been t r a n s l a t e d to you?

MR M B A T H A - Yes.

M J L S T R Y D O M : Do you a g r e e wi th the pol i t i ca l ob j ec t ive for

*,le a t t a ck as set out in this d o c u m e n t ?

MRj v l B A T H A : Yes.

MR STRYDOM 1791 MBATHA


MR S T R Y D O M : Is tha t the r e a s o n why you were pa r t o f the

a t t a cke r s on the 17th o f June 1992?


MR S T R Y D O M : Then ce r t a in q u e s t i o n s we r e asked and answer s

were p r o v i de d . T h e se a nsw er s as t he y have been shown to you,

are t hose the a n s w e r s to the q u e s t i o n s on p a ge 209 and 210?


MR S T R Y D O M : And j u s U f o r the r e c o r d , y ou r reply a p p e a r s oni

page 21.0(f) and (g) . Then you m ad e an a f f idavi t on page 210('h)

to 2 1 0 ( i), do you con f i rm y our s i g n a t u r e on the last page, 2 1 0(i )?

MR M B A T H A : Yes .

MR_ S T R Y D O M : And do yeu al so conf i rm the c on t en t s o f this4

document , the a f f idav i t ?

MR M B A T I I A : Yes .

MR S T R Y D O M : In B o i p a t o n g i t s e l f on the night o f the a t t ack ,

can you j u s t d e sc r i b e yo u r role and wha t you did?

MR _ M B A T H A : I w en t to w o r k on the 17th o f June, t ha t was in

the morning and I came back la te in the evening and I found

People comi ng ou t o f the a rena saying tha t they were g o i ng to

Serele and I said: " Tha nk you for a l ong t ime I have been wish ing

,llat such a t h ing cou l d happen , not k n o wi n g what to do see ing

I didn' t have the p owe r . "

~ B _ J j T R Y p Q M : W h y did you say t h a n k y o u , wh y did y o u w a n t

0 go to B o i p a t o n g ?

MR STRYDOM 1792 ,P M MBATHA

,R EENIGING HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

MR M B A T H A : I was very a ng r y in t hos e days as a r e su l t o f the

B o i p a t on g p r ob l e m, the dea t h o f peop l e day in and day out . My

b ro ther w as ki l led the re as wel l . T h o s e were the r e a s o n s that

bo thered me.

MR S T R Y D O M : Apa r t f rom B o i p a t o n g , were you c ros s wi th the

res idents o f o t he r t o w n s h i ps in the Vaal Tr i angle?

MR M B A T H A : They too-, we cou ldn ' t walk f r ee ly a ro u n d the

t ownsh ips t ha t w e r e a d i s t a nce f rom the hos te l but b ec a u s e

Bo i p a to n g was c lose r , ki l l ing us f rom j us t a d i s t ance , t ha t is why

1 got so angry , ove r ly angry.

MR S T R Y D O M : And why r̂ i d you wan t to a t t a ck the r e s i den t s

Iof B o i p a t o n g , or let me ask fyou this, who in B o i p a t o n g did you

want to a t t a c k ?

MR M B A T H A . I wa n t ed the '^so-cal led defence . 1 d idn ' t k n ow

this de fence .

MR S T R Y D O M : Do you k n ow who are the p eo p le who

s uppor t ed the de f ence , as you cal l t hem?

MR M B A T H A : It was the c o mm u n i t y o f B o i pa tong .

MR S T R Y D O M : Wer e you c ros s wi th the c o m m u n i t y o f

Bo i p a to ng as wel l?

MR M B A T H A : Yes , but I ve ry much wan t ed the ac tua l pe op l e

who we r e ki l l ing p e op l e in t ha t area.

MRSTRYDOM 1793 ^ M MBATHA


MR S T R Y D O M : N o w j u s t to move a s t ep back, at the s t a d i u m

before you went to B o i p a t o n g , tell me who gave the o r d e r and

what w as the order .

MR M B A T H A : I did not ge t t ha t but I l a t e r on d i s co v e re d t h a t

it was Da mar ra . You see, I c ou l dn ' t go to the s tadium.

MR S T R Y D O M . Wh y no t?

MR M B A T H A : I had j u s t a r r i ved f rom work .

MRJ ST R Y D O M : D u r i n g t ha t pe r i od did you work a norma l day

shift or wha t?

MR M B A T H A : Yes , it was a day shift . I was w o rk i n g d u r i ng

the day only, not in t he even ings .I

MR S T R Y D O M : W h e r e did iôu work?

MR M B A T H A : I w o r k i n g at t he Sam Jam( ?) con t r ac t .

MR S T R Y D O M : Whi l s t you w e r e in B o i p a t o n g , did you see any

pol ice or mi l i t a ry veh i c l es?

MR MB AT H A : No, not whi l s t we were ins ide B o ip a t on g .

MR S T R Y D O M : Did you see any mi l i t ary vehic l es or po l i ce

vehicles at a l a t e r s t age?

MR M B A T H A : T h e r e is one vehic l e tha t I saw coming f rom the

Vanderbi j l Pa rk d i r e c t i on , mov i ng t o w a r d s Sebokeng .

M R S T R Y D O M : Wh en did you see that vehicle?

MR M B A T H A : At t he t ime shor t l y a f t e r we ex i t ed f r om the

township .

MR STRYDOM 1794 £ M MBATHA


MR S T R Y D O M : N o w in B o i p a t o n g i t s e l f you say t h a t you

s t abbed t w o peop le , the one died and the o t h e r ran away , c an you

jus t g ive p a r t i c u l a r s o f t he se i ns t ances , s t a r t i ng wi th t he i n s t a nce

where you ki l l ed s omebody?

MR M B A T H A : The s i t ua t i on r e su l t ed f rom c i r c u m s t a n c e s in

which I f o u n d myself .

MR S T R Y D O M : Yes, j u s t ' g i v e mor e p a r t i cu l a r s ab o u t w h a t you

did in B o i p a t o n g . *

MR M B A T H A : My p a r t i c ip a t i o n p e r t a i ned to the k i l l ing o f

people o r t he dying o f p e op l e at B o ip a t on g .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M ba t ^ a , we u n d e r s t an d f rom the a f f idavi t\

that is b e f o r e us t ha t you s t abbed a pe r s on who died and t h a t the

other p e r s o n tha t you s t abbed ran away, is t ha t r ight?

MR M B A T H A : Yes , tnai is c o r r ec t .

CH A I R P E R S O N : Wh a t yo ur counse l wa n t s you to do is to tell

us in y ou r own w o r d s wha t you did in B o i p a t o n g , do you

understand t he ques t i on?

■MR M B A T H A - Yes. I wen t into a house , b r o k e a w i n d o w to

'-nih ent ry s ee ing tha t the d o o r s we r e locked . I f o un d a gir l who

” as t rying to j u m p out o f the w i ndow, I a p p r e h e n d e d he r and I

■■êd her w h e r e the o th e r c o mr a d e s we re and she said she didn' t

!1°w. I s t abbed tha t ins t an t and she fell. I op en ed the w a r d r o b e

1 ‘nte rven t ion)

^ A j j l P E R S O N : Wh er e did you s tab her?

MR STRYDOM 1795 P M MBATHA

1 ^ e e n ig in g HEARINGS AMNESTY/GAUTENG

Collection Number: AK2672 Goldstone Commission BOIPATONG ENQUIRY Records 1990-1999 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg ©2012

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