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613-521-0703 StenoTran www.stenotran.com
Military Police Commission d'examen des Complaints plaintes concernant Commission la police militaire
FYNES PUBLIC INTEREST HEARINGS held pursuant to section 250.38(1) of the National Defence Act,
in the matter of file 2011-004/ LES AUDIENCES D'INTÉRÊT PUBLIC SUR FYNES
tenues en vertu du paragraphe 250.38(1) de la Loi sur la défense nationale pour le dossier 2011-004
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS/
TRANSCRIPTION DE L'AUDIENCE BEFORE/DEVANT: Mr. Glenn Stannard Chairperson/Président Ms Raymonde Cléroux Registrars/Greffières Ms Hanan Rahal APPEARANCES/COMPARUTIONS: Ms Geneviève Coutlée Mr. Mark Freiman Ms Beth Alexander
Commission counsel/ Avocats de la Commission
Ms Elizabeth Richards Ms Korinda McLaine
For/pour Sgt Jon Bigelow, MWO Ross Tourout, LCol Gilles Sansterre, WO Blair Hart, PO2 Eric McLaughlin, Sgt David Mitchell, Sgt Matthew Alan Ritco, Maj Daniel Dandurand, Sgt Scott Shannon, LCol Brian Frei, LCol (Ret’d) William H. Garrick, WO (Ret’d) Sean Der Bonneteau, CWO (Ret’d) Barry Watson
Col (Ret’d) Michel W. Drapeau Mr. Joshua Juneau
For/pour Mr. Shaun Fynes and Mrs. Sheila Fynes
HELD AT: TENUE À: 10th Floor 10e étage 270 Albert Street 270, rue Albert Ottawa, Ontario Ottawa (Ontario) 19 September 2012 19 septembre 2012 Volume 50
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TABLE OF CONTENTS/TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PAGE SWORN: KIRK LACKIE 2 EXAMINATION BY MR. FREIMAN 2 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU 54 MS RICHARDS 60 SWORN: SGT SCOTT SHANNON 64 EXAMINATION BY MR. FREIMAN 64
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EXHIBITS / PIÈCES JUSTIFICATIVES NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE P-162 Section 124, elements of the offence negligent performance of a military duty 1 P-163 Section 129, elements of the offence conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline 1 P-164 Dispatch 15 March 2008 2 P-165 Master Corporal Paiement's notes 2
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Ottawa, Ontario / Ottawa (Ontario) 1
--- Upon resuming on Wednesday, September 19, 2
2012, at 0939 / L'audience reprend le mercredi 3
19 septembre 2012 à 0939 4
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 5
Good morning. 6
Ms Coutlée. 7
MS COUTLÉE: Mr. Chairman, we will 8
enter the exhibits for this morning. 9
Section 124, elements of the 10
offence negligent performance of a military duty. 11
MS RAHAL: Exhibit P-162. 12
EXHIBIT NO. P-162: Section 13
124, elements of the offence 14
negligent performance of a 15
military duty 16
MS COUTLÉE: Section 129, elements 17
of the offence conduct to the prejudice of good 18
order and discipline. 19
MS RAHAL: Exhibit P-163. 20
EXHIBIT NO. P-163: Section 21
129, elements of the offence 22
conduct to the prejudice of 23
good order and discipline 24
MS COUTLÉE: Dispatch 25
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15 March '08. 1
MS RAHAL: Exhibit P-164. 2
EXHIBIT P-164: Dispatch 15 3
March 2008 4
MS COUTLÉE: Master Corporal 5
Paiement's notes. 6
MS RAHAL: Exhibit P-165. 7
EXHIBIT P-165: Master 8
Corporal Paiement's notes 9
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Freiman. 10
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 11
Our first witness this morning is 12
Mr. Kirk Lackie. 13
SWORN: KIRK LACKIE 14
THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, 15
Mr. Lackie. Welcome. 16
There's a button at the bottom of 17
the microphone there. It's already on and if you 18
just move up everything will be great. 19
MR. LACKIE: Okay. 20
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 21
EXAMINATION BY 22
MR. FREIMAN: Good morning, Mr. 23
Lackie. 24
MR. LACKIE: Good morning. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: Mr. Lackie, I 1
understand that for a period of time you were a 2
member of the Canadian Forces. Can you tell us 3
when you were a member of the Canadian Forces? 4
MR. LACKIE: I first signed my 5
paper in January of '01 and I left for my basic 6
training in January of '02 to Esquimalt, B.C. 7
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 8
MR. LACKIE: And I was in the 9
military until I was released in September of 10
2010. 11
MR. FREIMAN: And can you just 12
tell us, during that period of time what Regiment 13
did you belong to and what jobs did you do? 14
MR. LACKIE: While I was in basic 15
training I -- initially I was under Infantry. and 16
then while I was still in basic training I 17
transferred over to Armoured Corps. And after I 18
graduated I was put into Lord Strathcona's Horse 19
Royal Canadians. 20
MR. FREIMAN: All right. And were 21
you in Lord Strathcona's Horse Royal Canadians up 22
to the time you released from the service? 23
MR. LACKIE: Yes, I was. 24
MR. FREIMAN: Now, Mr. Lackie, 25
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you're here today without counsel, so I have an 1
obligation to inform you about some ground rules 2
so that you understand what's happening and why. 3
You've come forward today, as I 4
understand, to testify about events that you 5
believe are relevant to the subject matter of this 6
public interest hearing; is that correct? 7
MR. LACKIE: Yes, sir. 8
MR. FREIMAN: In order to allow 9
the Chair to assess your credibility and what 10
weight to give to your evidence I'm going to ask 11
you some questions about your background and about 12
some issues that you've experienced. If you don't 13
answer or don't answer truthfully, then I will 14
enter some documents that are proof of the matters 15
that I'm going to ask you about. 16
Do you understand what we're about 17
to do then? 18
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 19
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 20
Now, Mr. Lackie, I understand that 21
you've had some brushes with the law. 22
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 23
MR. FREIMAN: And those brushes 24
with the law have resulted in a number of arrests 25
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and convictions? 1
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 2
MR. FREIMAN: And as part of that 3
series of events you've spent some time 4
incarcerated? 5
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 6
MR. FREIMAN: I would like to go 7
over the background of your criminal record then. 8
As I understand it, you were 9
charged on the 13th of December 2008 with a number 10
of offences that arose from a situation where you 11
had been involved in a domestic dispute with your 12
wife late at night. Your wife and your child fled 13
the home. There was an assault on your wife. 14
When the police came you 15
barricaded yourself inside your house. While you 16
were there, you were wearing body armour, you were 17
carrying a handgun and an automatic -- or you had 18
a handgun and an automatic rifle within the 19
residence and you also had ammunition, smoke 20
grenades and C1A1 Thunderflash pyrotechnics. When 21
the police came you told them that they would have 22
to take you out with a headshot. 23
Ultimately, you surrendered 24
without incident and you were incarcerated -- or, 25
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sorry, you were charged. Eventually when you came 1
to trial you pled guilty to a number of counts. 2
You pled guilty to a count of 3
possession of explosives; is that correct? 4
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 5
MR. FREIMAN: You pled guilty to a 6
charge of careless use or storage of a firearm for 7
the handgun and careless use and storage of a 8
firearm with respect to the shotgun; is that 9
correct? 10
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 11
MR. FREIMAN: You also pled guilty 12
to the charge of careless use and storage of 13
ammunition and on -- sorry, I made a mistake. 14
There were a number of other 15
charges. They were withdrawn. In fact, there was 16
only the first three charges -- first two charges 17
that you pled guilty to, possession of explosives 18
and careless use of a firearm with respect to the 19
handgun. 20
In any event, for those guilty 21
pleas you were sentenced to a total of 120 days 22
and you were given credit for time served. 23
So you served no further time 24
other than the time that you served awaiting 25
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trial; is that correct? 1
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 2
MR. FREIMAN: Now, I also 3
understand that in connection with these offences 4
you were charged on two occasions with breach of 5
recognizance, and breach of recognizance, as I 6
understand it, means that you violated certain 7
conditions that were imposed on you as a condition 8
of your bail, your being at large while you were 9
awaiting trial on the first charges; is that 10
correct? 11
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 12
MR. FREIMAN: And the first of 13
these arose as a result of your having left your 14
residence without permission, contrary to the 15
terms of your recognizance; is that correct? 16
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 17
MR. FREIMAN: And that occurred on 18
February 7, 2012 (sic). 19
Then on February the 15th of two 20
thousand -- sorry, of 2009. 21
On February 15th of 2009 there was 22
another incident and the facts of that incident 23
are that you were arrested by the Edmonton Police 24
Service in circumstances where you had been highly 25
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intoxicated in a taxi cab, you demanded that the 1
driver take you somewhere to obtain drugs, you 2
indicated you had a gun, and when the taxi driver 3
did not comply you fled his vehicle. 4
The police found you, there were 5
no weapons on your person, you were transported to 6
the remand centre, and at the remand centre you 7
were reported to be trying to strangle yourself 8
with your T-shirt. 9
At that point you were transported 10
to the Alberta Hospital at Edmonton for a mental 11
health assessment. While you were in the hospital 12
there was an incident with a police officer, the 13
end of which had you spitting on the police 14
officer and yelling that the officer should just 15
kill you. 16
Are those basically the correct 17
facts? 18
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 19
MR. FREIMAN: As a result of these 20
two -- of the first charge -- sorry, the first 21
breach was withdrawn. However, you were charged 22
with uttering threats and you pled guilty to that 23
charge; is that correct? 24
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: You were also 1
charged with assaulting a police officer. You 2
pled guilty to that charge; is that correct? 3
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 4
MR. FREIMAN: And you pled guilty 5
to two charges of being at large in breach of 6
recognizance; is that correct? 7
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 8
MR. FREIMAN: As a result of those 9
guilty pleas you were sentenced to 120 days 10
consecutive to the first 120 days, for a total of 11
240 days, and you were given credit in the usual 12
calculus of these things for time -- for an amount 13
of time served awaiting trial so that in the end 14
you served no additional time other than the time 15
that you were awaiting trial; is that correct? 16
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 17
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Freiman, 18
just to clarify that. If that was consecutive, 19
was that concurrent with the other 120 days that 20
was consecutive -- 21
MR. FREIMAN: It was 120 days 22
consecutive to the first group of 120 days. The 23
charges in the first -- the pleas in the first 24
series of charges were 120 days with each of them 25
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consecutive and the second 120 days for a total of 1
240 days. 2
Now, I understand that there was 3
also an incident following this and it involved a 4
charge of breach of probation. 5
And the facts are that on June the 6
9th of 2009 you were found by police in an 7
intoxicated state in the junior ranks bar at the 8
base. When you were -- it was found that in that 9
intoxicated state you had broken a number of 10
glasses in the bar and you had opened the draft 11
taps. 12
When you were taken into custody, 13
as you were being transferred to the Edmonton 14
Police Station to be charged you kicked out the 15
rear window of the Military Police patrol car. 16
And as a result of those incidents 17
you were charged with mischief under $5,000 and 12 18
counts of breaching probation; is that basically 19
correct? 20
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 21
MR. FREIMAN: On July the 15th I 22
understand that you appeared at trial and you 23
entered a plea of guilty to the charge of mischief 24
and to three charges of breach of probation, and 25
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as a result you were sentenced to time served 1
while you were awaiting trial, which was a total 2
of 42 days; is that correct? 3
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 4
MR. FREIMAN: And finally, in July 5
of 2010 I understand that you were stopped driving 6
a car at a high rate of speed by the Halifax 7
Police. You were arrested for impaired driving. 8
When you were arrested the police conducted a 9
check and discovered you were in breach of your 10
probation order. You were also charged with 11
resisting arrest. 12
Are those facts basically correct? 13
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 14
MR. FREIMAN: And on the 10th of 15
January 2012 you came to trial, you pled guilty to 16
a charge of operating a motor vehicle while 17
impaired, you pled not guilty to a charge of 18
obstruction of police but were found guilty after 19
trial, and you pled guilty to a charge of breach 20
of probation. 21
Are those facts correct? 22
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 23
MR. FREIMAN: And the penalty 24
imposed on you for the impaired operation was a 25
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$1,300 fine, a probation order for two years and a 1
licence prohibition for 18 months; for the 2
obstruct police charge you were fined $250 and 3
given a probation order for two years; and on the 4
charge of breach of probation you were fined $250 5
and given a probation order for two years. 6
Are all those facts correct? 7
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 8
MR. FREIMAN: Thank you, sir. 9
I think I may have neglected to 10
mention that in the first set of charges arising 11
from the armed standoff there was also a charge of 12
assault and you pled guilty to that? 13
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 14
MR. FREIMAN: Thank you. 15
Now, Mr. Langridge, I want -- 16
sorry, Mr. Lackie, I want to take you back to the 17
period of time -- to near the beginning of your 18
service in the military. 19
I understand that at some point 20
you became acquainted with Stuart Langridge; is 21
that correct? 22
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 23
MR. FREIMAN: Can you tell me the 24
circumstances, about when was it and how was it 25
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that you got to know Stuart? 1
MR. LACKIE: I'd say it was around 2
'04 that me and Stu started working together. The 3
first time I met him was out on a field exercise 4
and just on our downtime we'd just kind of, you 5
know, sit around the smoking area, joking around 6
and, you know, telling stories and whatnot just to 7
get to know each other. 8
And that's when I first got to 9
know him. And we hit it off, so we, you know, 10
hung around more and more during our downtimes 11
during our exercises. 12
MR. FREIMAN: What was it -- was 13
there anything special that made for a bond 14
between the two of you? 15
MR. LACKIE: Well, I'd say that, 16
you know, his interests and my interests were 17
similar. You know, like we liked to do fun 18
things, you know, exhilarating things. 19
Stu liked his car and souped up 20
his car and stuff like that and I liked my fast 21
cars as well. And he put a lot of work into it 22
and there's times where I would help him out in 23
the back parking lot fixing up his car and -- 24
MR. FREIMAN: During the period of 25
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time that you knew Stu, did you get to know his 1
circle of friends? 2
MR. LACKIE: Yeah. Well, we -- we 3
all started -- like because my group of people 4
that came into the Regiment, there was about 32 of 5
us that all came into the Regiment at the same 6
time and, I don't know, I guess you could compare 7
it to going to a new school. 8
You know, like 32 people come in 9
and there's just certain cliques that people fall 10
into that -- you know, you associate with certain 11
people because they've got similar interests or 12
they're similar to yourself or whatever. 13
And so it was like myself and 14
probably another dozen guys that, you know, 15
started to hang out with Stu and Stu's friends 16
that he's had for a long time. 17
MR. FREIMAN: Do you recall the 18
names of some of the mutual friends that you had 19
or friends that were close to Stuart? 20
MR. LACKIE: Well, one of the big 21
ones was Corporal Hillier. He was very close with 22
Stu. He graduated in my class as well. 23
And Stu had his own friends, you 24
know, like outside the military too, 'cause he 25
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lived up there for a while. 1
MR. FREIMAN: M'hmm. 2
MR. LACKIE: And I wasn't too 3
familiar with those people as much as army people 4
'cause army guys just kind of hang out with each 5
other sort of thing more or less. 6
MR. FREIMAN: M'hmm. 7
Now, I understand that you 8
didn't -- you weren't deployed during the time 9
that you served; is that correct? 10
MR. LACKIE: That's correct. I 11
did five workup trainings to go overseas but I was 12
never deployed. 13
MR. FREIMAN: But Stuart was 14
deployed on two occasions. Did Stuart ever 15
discuss with you his experiences on his Bosnian 16
deployment and on his Afghan deployment? 17
MR. LACKIE: Yeah. He talked to 18
me about both of them. 19
MR. FREIMAN: Can you tell me what 20
he told you about his Bosnian deployment? 21
MR. LACKIE: Well, for the Bosnia 22
tour he said that, you know, there was a -- there 23
was a lot of downtime that you didn't know whether 24
it's just a ghost town sort of thing because so 25
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many buildings were bombed out and stuff like that 1
or was it just, you know, a setup where, you know, 2
something could happen, like a trap or something 3
like that or a sniper be around or whatever. 4
But his biggest thing was that he 5
seen the -- the effects on the people, like how 6
everybody became homeless and how, you know, 7
atrocities were happening to the women and whatnot 8
in the area. 9
But usually, you know, can't go in 10
and stop that even though it's fellow soldiers, 11
not necessarily our military. It was -- there was 12
other military members from different countries 13
there at that time. But you can't step into those 14
things because you don't know what's going to 15
happen to you. 16
And just seeing them and 17
witnessing them, that he just felt disgusted about 18
things like that. 19
MR. FREIMAN: What about Afghan? 20
Did he tell you anything about his tour in 21
Afghanistan? 22
MR. LACKIE: Afghanistan, he 23
was -- he was more like -- like before he went, he 24
was more settled into, say, a family role or 25
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something like that, that he was being more of a 1
family man, trying to settle down and stuff like 2
that. And when he went over to Afghanistan, he 3
had to -- he had a couple of places that suspected 4
enemy were going to blow up some buildings and 5
stuff like that. 6
And there ended up being a bunch 7
of women and children that evacuated the place 8
that they were blowing up and he didn't react too 9
well to it because, you know, like he expected to 10
be a dad and stuff like that and, you know, to see 11
children get their houses blown up or possibly 12
even siblings might have gotten hurt. 13
He didn't know for sure because he 14
couldn't go in and investigate because he was in 15
an armoured tank or an armoured vehicle at the 16
time. And the only people that could go in there 17
and check things out were the infantry, and they 18
don't report to us or he never asked about it 19
after that. 20
MR. FREIMAN: Did you notice any 21
change in Stuart between the time that he left for 22
Afghanistan and when he came back from 23
Afghanistan? 24
MR. LACKIE: Yeah. He -- it 25
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seemed like he had hope, like, and dreams of what 1
he wanted to do in the future, like to settle 2
down, have a house, have a family, have his nice 3
vehicles or whatever. And before he left, this is 4
what he was like. 5
And then when he came home, he was 6
just -- he was just kind of numb. He was -- he 7
didn't have any interests like that any more. 8
He -- he was just -- I don't know, kind of dead in 9
his eyes sometimes that he would just stare off. 10
MR. FREIMAN: Now, during the time 11
that -- when you first met Stuart, were you clean 12
and sober? 13
MR. LACKIE: Yes, I was. 14
MR. FREIMAN: Were you clean and 15
sober during the entire time that you knew Stuart? 16
MR. LACKIE: No, I wasn't. 17
MR. FREIMAN: All right. And were 18
you aware whether Stuart was clean and sober from 19
the time that he came back from Afghanistan? 20
MR. LACKIE: No, he wasn't. 21
MR. FREIMAN: All right. Can you 22
tell me about that? 23
MR. LACKIE: What had happened was 24
Stuart, I guess, for one reason or another heard 25
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about this place called Edgewood. It's a 1
rehabilitation centre. And back in '02, I believe 2
it was, I asked for help for myself for drinking, 3
and I had a bad drinking problem. And I'm an 4
alcoholic. 5
And so Stu asked me about 6
Edgewood. 7
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 8
MR. LACKIE: And -- place I 9
attended. And I started telling him about it, you 10
know, like it's a good place. You know, it's -- 11
you get away. You get to be able to focus on, you 12
know, what's important in life and how to figure 13
out what problems you have in order to, you know, 14
get yourself on the right path to living and 15
having a happy life again. 16
And I said, "Why are you asking?" 17
He said, "Well, the -- it was mentioned to me 18
that, you know, maybe I might go there or 19
something". 20
I said, "It's a great thing, you 21
know". And when you finish it, you can -- you 22
come back and you do what's called an after care 23
program where once a week you go to a group. It's 24
like internal AA group or NA or -- it's an 25
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internal group that discuss addictions. 1
And I attended them on a regular 2
basis as well as AA. And I said, "Well, you know, 3
I can take you to some of those meetings with me". 4
MR. FREIMAN: And did you take him 5
to any meetings? 6
MR. LACKIE: Yes, I did. 7
MR. FREIMAN: How did he react to 8
those meetings? 9
MR. LACKIE: Well, when we got on 10
a smoke break -- like we didn't finish quite the 11
whole meeting. We went on a smoke break halfway 12
through the meeting and he had mentioned to me, he 13
was like, "This is unbelievable. It's like 14
there's 12 people in here and they're telling -- 15
they're all telling my story". 16
And I was like, "That's what it's 17
like when you're an addict, you know. We're no 18
different than anyone else". 19
I mean, I won't mention any names, 20
but I mean, there's people that were Generals 21
there and there's people that are Privates there. 22
And when you go there, you're Bob 23
or you're Jim. There's no difference. There's no 24
rank structure. We all have a problem and we all 25
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want to solve it. 1
MR. FREIMAN: So did Stuart get 2
the help that he needed through Edgewood or 3
through going to treatment groups with you? 4
MR. LACKIE: Stuart didn't -- 5
didn't attend enough meetings or go to enough 6
group meetings to get what he needed out of it, 7
you know. Like he didn't -- it seemed like he did 8
better work one on one 'cause like when we were at 9
work, he would always find me like out in the 10
smoking section or whatever. And we'd sit there 11
for the half hour or however long we had off 12
during that break time and we'd talk about, you 13
know, what was bugging him or what -- what could 14
he do differently to, you know, change things 15
around or whatever. 16
I could only offer my -- what I 17
had personally gone through, but I always 18
suggested that, you know, he come back to the 19
meetings, you know. It's better to hear from a 20
bunch and, you know, different opinions than just 21
one. 22
MR. FREIMAN: So we know that 23
Stuart went to Edgewood and that he left shortly 24
thereafter. 25
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Did he speak to you about his 1
experiences at Edgewood? 2
MR. LACKIE: He said that -- that 3
environment was not his cup of tea because like he 4
hadn't really been -- introduced to groups of 5
people that are like heroin addicts and meth 6
addicts and stuff like that and he seen it as, you 7
know, I'm not that bad, so he -- you know, why am 8
I here. 9
But I mean, a disease is a 10
disease. It's just that I guess that kind of 11
overwhelmed him a bit, it seemed, such harsh 12
drugs. 13
MR. FREIMAN: So let me ask you, 14
during this period of time, what was Stuart's 15
behaviour -- well, first of all, did you know what 16
he was doing by way of alcohol? Was he drinking? 17
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Do you know how 19
much? Did you see him struggling with this? 20
MR. LACKIE: Yeah, I seen him 21
drinking. 22
He was -- he's -- you know, when 23
he went to party, he was hard core, you know, 24
doing shots and drinking and, you know, and 25
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that -- hand in hand, that goes with, you know, 1
trying to pick up women and stuff like that. 2
But I mean, that's how it was with 3
everybody that was drinking at the time. It was 4
like, you know, just a game to all the people. 5
MR. FREIMAN: All right. So do I 6
understand that he didn't think himself to be 7
addicted? 8
MR. LACKIE: Well, it's pretty 9
hard for you to think you're addicted when you're 10
already drunk. 11
MR. FREIMAN: What about use of 12
drugs? Do you know whether he used drugs and, if 13
he did, what drugs he used? 14
MR. LACKIE: Well, I -- I'll say 15
that I personally didn't witness the drugs going 16
up his nose, but I know that Stu did coke because 17
I was in the bathroom with him when he broke it up 18
and snorted it. But he had his back turned to me. 19
You know, I can't say that I seen it, but I know 20
from my own personal experience that's -- that's 21
what it was. 22
MR. FREIMAN: Were you able to see 23
a change in his behaviour when he used cocaine? 24
MR. LACKIE: Yeah. He became much 25
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more hyper and it seemed like the drinking would 1
flow a little easier because of -- you know, 2
because his heightened energy because of the coke. 3
So he would drink more and shoot more alcohol 4
shots and stuff like that. 5
MR. FREIMAN: During this period 6
of time, we've heard that Stuart had a girlfriend 7
with whom he eventually entered into a declaration 8
of common-law. 9
Now, did you know anything about 10
that relationship? 11
MR. LACKIE: He didn't talk about 12
that with me. He -- that was like a -- it was 13
just one of those subjects that he didn't want to 14
talk to me about. He just wanted to talk about 15
the good fun times and stuff like that. 16
And when it came to his 17
relationship, it was, I would say, more of a 18
personal level that he didn't care to share that 19
with just anybody. 20
MR. FREIMAN: How widespread was 21
the knowledge of Stuart's struggles with alcohol 22
and drugs? 23
MR. LACKIE: It was pretty well 24
known to most soldiers that were around him. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: And was there an 1
attitude that went with that knowledge? 2
MR. LACKIE: There was different 3
attitudes that -- towards Stu and his use, you 4
know. 5
On one side, it was, you know, 6
people wanted to party with him because he was, 7
you know, a good partier and stuff like that. And 8
then you had the other side of the coin where 9
people just thought that Stu was a waste of 10
oxygen, was their words. And he's a loser and 11
stuff like that. 12
And being Stu's friends, I took 13
offence to that and I've straightened a couple of 14
people out for saying things like that. 15
MR. FREIMAN: Another topic that 16
we've heard about during the course of these 17
hearings is the topic of suicide. 18
Was suicide ever a discussion that 19
you had with Stuart Langridge? 20
MR. LACKIE: Yeah. He mostly 21
wanted to hear what had happened to me or what had 22
gone on with me. And I've had suicide attempts in 23
my past because drugs and alcohol have brought me 24
down so far that I didn't feel that there was much 25
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to live for because I've let people down so much 1
that I didn't know if I could right my wrongs. 2
And then Stu turned around and, 3
you know, he agreed with me and he said, "Yeah, I 4
know what you mean". 5
And then he -- he never got into 6
particulars about himself in that aspect. 7
MR. FREIMAN: I forgot to ask you 8
just a little detail when we were talking about 9
the AA meetings. 10
Do you remember who ran those 11
meetings on the base? 12
MR. LACKIE: There was the Drug 13
and Alcohol Dependency people who were on the 14
after care meetings that were held on base and the 15
AA meetings that were held off base was just 16
outside the main gates of Edmonton garrison at the 17
chapel there. 18
And it was around about like who 19
would open up and serve that week. It would be a 20
different person each time. 21
MR. FREIMAN: And what about on 22
base? Who ran the program? 23
MR. LACKIE: There was a couple of 24
counsellors when I started just by first name, 25
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they were Doug and Don. 1
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. You say that 2
Stuart never opened up to you about his own 3
suicide attempts. 4
Was there any discussion more 5
widely in the Regiment about suicide attempts? 6
MR. LACKIE: Yeah. Like I heard 7
from other people like what -- what they thought 8
that might have been the truth was that Stu tried 9
to kill himself and that he failed. 10
And I said, "You know, a failed 11
suicide attempt is just basically a cry for help". 12
And then that's when it -- things started really 13
getting bad around the Regiment saying that he was 14
nothing but a piece of dirt and he was a waste of 15
oxygen. 16
And Stu being my friend, I 17
defended him when I heard this kind of talk about 18
him. I told them, "Don't speak that way or you're 19
going to have some altercations with me". 20
MR. FREIMAN: M'hmm. So around 21
this period of time -- and I want to talk about 22
from the winter of 2008 through to Stuart's death. 23
Were you in a position to see how 24
he was doing in terms of drugs and alcohol? 25
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MR. LACKIE: I hadn't personally 1
witnessed his amount of consumption or whatever. 2
I knew the consumption was going on because of his 3
personal attitude, you know, had changed. He had 4
become more on the edge. 5
Like if there was something that 6
he didn't like, he would sort of like snap at a 7
response towards it. He wouldn't discuss it. 8
He'd either say, "Oh, that's bull" whatever, you 9
know, or "That's not right" or stuff like that. 10
And usually, before, he would talk 11
about things, you know. He was more intellectual 12
sort of thing. Like he would discuss things with 13
you. And he wasn't that type of person any more. 14
MR. FREIMAN: Can we talk a little 15
bit about Stuart's view of the army at this point? 16
What was his view of the army when 17
you first met him? 18
MR. LACKIE: He -- when I first 19
met him, he thought the army was great, you know. 20
He was like this is going to give me the 21
opportunity that, you know, I can take some 22
schooling and some courses and get qualified in 23
some trades and, you know, if I keep on making 24
this kind of money and then, you know, I can 25
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afford to get a house down the road or a real nice 1
car and get it souped up and stuff like that. 2
And he seen that there was great 3
potential for him. 4
MR. FREIMAN: By the winter of 5
2008, what was his attitude towards the army? 6
MR. LACKIE: He hated the army. 7
He -- he -- he just like other people and -- he 8
just felt -- there's a saying, the army uses you 9
like a tissue paper. As soon as they're finished 10
with you like a tissue paper, they just throw you 11
away. 12
And Stu was, to them, a really 13
dirty tissue paper. They threw him away, but they 14
just didn't want to throw him away. They just 15
wanted to scoop him under the carpet, sort of 16
thing 'cause there was this stigma against him, 17
you know, with the drinking and the using of drugs 18
and stuff that they didn't want a soldier of 19
theirs to be labelled in that form, so they slowly 20
tried to, you know, find jobs to kind of put you 21
out of the picture. Sort of like see no evil, 22
hear no evil sort of thing. 23
MR. FREIMAN: What kind of jobs 24
were they? 25
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MR. LACKIE: Like he'd work for 1
Regimental Headquarters, which is the duty centre, 2
along with whatever jobs that were assigned to the 3
Regiment to do. So he would do duty a lot, you 4
know, like answering phones or doing menial tasks 5
like delivering paperwork around the Regiment or 6
going up and copying manuals and stuff like that, 7
you know. Nothing of any major importance, but 8
nevertheless, kind of keep him busy and just kind 9
of occupied around the Regiment where people could 10
keep an eye on him, sort of thing. 11
MR. FREIMAN: Did Stuart tell you 12
what his attitude was towards those kinds of jobs? 13
MR. LACKIE: He was sick of them. 14
He was like "I served, you know, two tours. I've 15
been in the military for this amount of time and 16
then they're stuffing me away here. And you know, 17
I could be like teaching things. I mean, I've got 18
skills. I've got lots of experience that I could 19
be teaching young soldiers and stuff like that or 20
showing them, you know, weapons training or 21
something like that". 22
And he was. He was in line for 23
like Master Corporal. He should have been up 24
there. Like he should have -- he should have been 25
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31
on this Master Corporals course. And you know, to 1
get ready for that, you take people aside and you 2
start teaching weapons training and you start 3
teaching basic soldier skills and stuff like that. 4
And these things weren't made 5
available to him, so it seemed like they were 6
passing him by for Master Corporal. 7
MR. FREIMAN: Were you aware that 8
he'd gone on a course and that he'd been returned 9
to his unit following a positive drug test? 10
MR. LACKIE: No, I wasn't. 11
MR. FREIMAN: Did Stuart ever 12
share with you his own view of the medical 13
treatment that he was getting from the military? 14
MR. LACKIE: Yes. Stu -- like at 15
a certain point -- like when he was -- just before 16
he was talking to me about Edgewood and stuff like 17
that, he said he had to go to the doctors or EMS 18
there and see about getting something for his 19
nerves because he was feeling jumpy or whatever. 20
I think that went hand in hand with maybe the fact 21
that he was not using, that he was straight at 22
work and stuff like that, so he wanted something 23
to, you know, mellow him out sort of thing. 24
So he went to UMS to see about 25
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that and then one doctor prescribed him something. 1
I'm not sure what it was. Then he said to me, 2
"These aren't working" or whatever. 3
Then he would go back to the UMS. 4
Then it's never usually the same doctor that you 5
would see the same guy twice sort of thing because 6
they're just the doctors that are in the military 7
and they just kind of come and serve like once or 8
twice a week or do a rotation through there. 9
So he went through, you know, 10
maybe a dozen different doctors and none of them 11
really helped him out because no one knew exactly 12
what his problem was because no one stayed with 13
it. 14
MR. FREIMAN: And my colleague 15
tells me that I gave you that information so I'm 16
going to correct myself. Stuart went on his PLQ 17
course and was returned to the unit for chest 18
pains. 19
The drug test that rendered him 20
not deployable occurred after that. Were you 21
aware of any of that? 22
MR. LACKIE: No, I wasn't. 23
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 24
We have talked a little bit about 25
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33
suicide. One of the concepts we've heard in the 1
course of these hearings is the concept of the 2
suicide watch. Was that a meaningful concept to 3
you first of all in terms of what the army did in 4
general? 5
MR. LACKIE: Could you -- 6
MR. FREIMAN: Were you familiar 7
with the idea of a suicide watch? Had you had any 8
experience with people being put on a suicide 9
watch before anything that happened with Stuart? 10
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 11
MR. FREIMAN: Tell me about that. 12
MR. LACKIE: I'm not sure exactly 13
how long it was before Stuart but there was 14
another guy that had heard one of -- his spouse or 15
his child or something like that and he'd seen one 16
of the doctors or something like that and said 17
that he might be possibly harmful to himself. So 18
he was put on what they call suicide watch. 19
At that time what it meant was 20
that he was going to be doing duty for, I think it 21
was a period of nine days or something like that, 22
because when you're doing duty you're always with 23
somebody. You're constantly with somebody because 24
if you're the duty driver you've got to drive the 25
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34
duty corporal around. Or if you're not there then 1
you're sent at the duty centre waiting to do a 2
test or something. 3
And then when it's down time after 4
supper then it's a little more relaxed. But you 5
live in the duty centre at the regiment like there 6
is beds in back and you sleep there and you stay 7
there. There's showers and everything in the 8
regiment. So basically you live there. 9
MR. FREIMAN: Are you aware of any 10
suicide watches with respect to Stuart? 11
MR. LACKIE: Well, I don't know. 12
I'm not positive they named it a suicide watch but 13
there was a stretch of, like, at least a week 14
where he did duties like every day. 15
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 16
MR. LACKIE: And he stayed in the 17
regiment the whole time. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Let me just be 19
clear. What's the timing of this? Is this just 20
before his eventual death or was it sometime 21
earlier? 22
MR. LACKIE: Yes. It was before 23
he was put in the shacks. 24
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 25
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MR. LACKIE: And then after he did 1
that he was like kind of let out on his, I don't 2
know, his own recognizance sort of thing. 3
Then shortly after that he was put 4
in the shacks in order to keep an eye on him at 5
that time. It was called the suicide watch at 6
that time for sure. 7
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So tell me 8
about when that is in relation to Stuart's 9
eventual death. 10
MR. LACKIE: The shack part? 11
MR. FREIMAN: Yeah. 12
MR. LACKIE: That was like within 13
you know days of his death. 14
MR. FREIMAN: So was he living in 15
the shacks or was he living in the duty centre? 16
MR. LACKIE: He was in the shacks. 17
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. How do you 18
know that? 19
MR. LACKIE: Because I've seen him 20
there when I was there. 21
MR. FREIMAN: All right. Tell me 22
a little about what you know about what he was 23
doing during this period. 24
Well, first of all you say it was 25
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a suicide watch. Why do you say that? 1
MR. LACKIE: Well, he told me the 2
limitations he had on him, like he usually had a 3
partner from the duty centre that would accompany 4
him to breakfast, lunch or dinner -- 5
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 6
MR. LACKIE: -- if he was to go. 7
He was to call in and report to the duty staff 8
that: I have this, this, this appointment. It's 9
going to take that long. My transportation time 10
is this. 11
Then usually the duty personnel 12
would pick him up from his appointments and take 13
him back to the shacks or take him back to the 14
regiment if it was still work time. 15
MR. FREIMAN: Where was he during 16
work time? 17
MR. LACKIE: He was working in the 18
Regimental Headquarters at the last -- 19
MR. FREIMAN: Is that the same as 20
the Duty Centre? 21
MR. LACKIE: Well, that's part of 22
Regimental Headquarters is the Duty Centre, but 23
they also take care of other things like they have 24
vehicles and they have equipment and everything 25
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that they have to take care of as well as weapons 1
and everything else. 2
So it's a normal work environment 3
in the aspect that you have to do your soldier 4
duties like cleaning and maintaining equipment and 5
stuff like that. 6
MR. FREIMAN: Now, we know that 7
shortly before his death Stuart was in the -- was 8
in hospital for one reason or another. And he was 9
released just 10 days before his death 10
approximately. 11
Did Stuart talk to you about those 12
hospitalizations? 13
MR. LACKIE: He said he had to get 14
a psychiatric analysis done. 15
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 16
MR. LACKIE: And I told him that I 17
had one done as well down in the Forensic Unit in 18
Edmonton. 19
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 20
MR. LACKIE: And I believe it was 21
the same location he was at, at that time. And 22
it's a different environment to go in there and 23
get analysed by doctors or whatever because you're 24
in there and then you're no longer in the military 25
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environment. You're in there with people that 1
have genuine you know handicaps or people that are 2
there because of using hard core drugs. 3
We're not used to that in our 4
environment, like being military people. So it 5
can get you quite agitated to be in that 6
environment. He just voiced his displeasure with 7
what was going on at that time. 8
MR. FREIMAN: M'hmm. 9
In that last 10-day period of his 10
life did you have a chance to spend time with 11
Stuart? 12
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 13
MR. FREIMAN: So can you tell me 14
what he was doing while he was -- during that 15
period of time? What were his -- what was his 16
army duty? 17
MR. LACKIE: Well, he was -- he 18
had his times where he just -- he just didn't want 19
to wear green anymore. He just was getting sick 20
of it. 21
He had his times where, you know, 22
he just got fed up and he just wanted to take a 23
break and like get away and not be part of the 24
green machine anymore. 25
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He didn't have an opportunity 1
because he was under the microscope. So he had to 2
keep up doing his normal job, sort of thing, and 3
they force you to get your boots on, get your 4
shoes shined. 5
You know there's no taking your 6
time off with the military because if you want to 7
take time off you're going to jail because there 8
is no like report in sick or whatever. I mean Joe 9
Blow can call in sick from his job at the Quickie 10
Mart or whatever. With us, you don't show up for 11
work you go to jail. 12
MR. FREIMAN: Well, can't you just 13
go to the clinic and go on sick parade and explain 14
what's going on with you? 15
MR. LACKIE: Yeah. As soon as 16
they look at your history and depending on who you 17
might have seen or might not have seen then 18
they're just going to say light duties and nothing 19
strenuous or stuff like that. The odd time you 20
may run across somebody that hadn't served you 21
before so, yeah, maybe he might say "You can have 22
the day off". It just depends. 23
I mean, I don't know exactly how 24
many doctors that Stu has seen but I've been 25
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through the system before too and my record is 47 1
doctors I've seen. 2
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. Well, I'd 3
just like to maybe get a little bit of clarity 4
between your own experiences and what Stuart told 5
you about his experiences. 6
Did he tell you anything about his 7
experiences with the military medical community? 8
MR. LACKIE: Yeah. He said that 9
there is no -- there is a word for it -- no 10
consistency; that you're not able to follow up all 11
the time because you can't see the same person in 12
order to be looked at constantly and then 13
progressively, you know, say, "Well, this is your 14
problem" or "This may be your problem so let's try 15
this avenue". 16
And if it doesn't work you can't 17
usually come back to that same doctor and then try 18
something else because usually they are on another 19
rotation at the hospital or somewhere else. 20
MR. FREIMAN: What about his 21
conditions? Did Stuart talk to you about the 22
conditions under which he was functioning during 23
this last 10 days? 24
MR. LACKIE: Well, he was very 25
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41
depressed. He was, you know, worried about his 1
family. He felt that, you know, that he had been 2
just a big let-down to everybody, that he didn't 3
really have anything to offer anybody anymore 4
because he thought he screwed up too many times to 5
make things right anymore. 6
MR. FREIMAN: Did he speak to you 7
about the specific terms that he was under, the 8
living conditions where he was living? 9
You talked about being on duty all 10
the time. Did he talk about any of those things 11
to you? 12
MR. LACKIE: Well, just like about 13
the shacks and having people to escort him places. 14
MR. FREIMAN: Well, how did he 15
feel about that? 16
MR. LACKIE: Well, he felt like a 17
child. He felt, like, you know absolutely nobody 18
trusted him. Hence, you know, that goes hand in 19
hand with his you know overall feeling of "I can't 20
make it right because, you know, how can I make it 21
right if they're treating me like a child and 22
that? I can't show people that I'm going to try 23
to grow or try to improve myself." 24
So it's like he gave up in his 25
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mind that -- you know what's the point if they're 1
going to constantly keep me, you know, locked down 2
like this? 3
MR. FREIMAN: Now, I understand 4
that the last time you say you saw Stuart alive 5
was the day before his death. Can you tell me 6
about that day and what happened between you and 7
Stuart? 8
MR. LACKIE: I had just run across 9
Stu, like he was coming back from dinner and I had 10
stopped by. I went and stopped by the shacks. I 11
seen him walking over towards the shacks. 12
I stopped by and I said, "Do you 13
want to come with me to the AA meeting tonight?" 14
You know because the AA meetings are just on the 15
other side of the fence, like the regiment there, 16
of the garrison. 17
And he says, "No, I don't feel up 18
to it tonight. I'm pretty tired". And I said, 19
"Okay, then I'll catch up with you tomorrow". 20
So I went to my meeting and that 21
was the last I seen of him. 22
MR. FREIMAN: So let's talk for a 23
moment about the actual day of the death. What 24
were you doing on that day and did you have any 25
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43
plans with respect to Stuart? 1
Take your time. 2
MR. LACKIE: I asked my sergeant 3
the day before Stu's death. There was a drinking 4
function that was going on. It was like there was 5
a regimental parade and then everybody gets 6
shitfaced basically and everybody gets drunk. 7
And I asked my sergeant. I said 8
could I not go to this function because I don't 9
feel comfortable. I don't feel comfortable around 10
this drinking environment and I said, "You know, 11
my time might be better spent doing something. 12
You know, I can go sit with Stu or whatever." 13
MR. FREIMAN: So let me just -- I 14
asked you what happened the day of his death. Is 15
this what happened on the day of his death or the 16
day before his death? 17
MR. LACKIE: I asked my sergeant 18
the day before. 19
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 20
MR. LACKIE: And then this -- 21
MR. FREIMAN: The parade was the 22
next day? 23
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 24
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 25
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MR. LACKIE: So my sergeant said 1
no, it's a must attend. And then I had to go to 2
the parade. 3
So what happened the day of his 4
death is usually when there is a parade function 5
or whatever the boys usually get together in the 6
shacks and they have a few drinks or whatever to 7
fill up their flasks and put them in their pockets 8
or whatever because they know it's going to be 9
like, you know, lazy man's day, get a little buzz 10
on, figure out what's going on later and go party. 11
So we passed through -- well, I 12
passed through the shacks that day and everybody 13
was in the hall and they were doing their thing. 14
You know there was some girls over there or 15
whatever. 16
I went and knocked on Stu's door 17
and there was no answer. I asked the kid that 18
lived down the hall from him -- I don't know his 19
name. He was the newer fellow -- I said, "Did you 20
see him today?" He said, "I seen him at 21
breakfast. I haven't seen him since". 22
And then I just kept walking down 23
the hall. 24
Then I had left there and then I 25
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drove over to the regiment. I went over the 1
regiment. I reported to my superiors and let them 2
know I was there. 3
After waiting around for a little 4
while we polished our boots up and our cap badge 5
and stuff and we formed up. We marched into the 6
hangar, did the ceremony thing. I don't even know 7
what it was about, honouring some big whig for a 8
donation or something stupid like that. 9
MR. FREIMAN: Well, can I just 10
pause for a minute? 11
My information is that on the day 12
of Stuart's death there was a funeral for Trooper 13
Hayakaze who had been killed in Afghanistan. Is 14
that not your recollection? 15
MR. LACKIE: No. That was just a 16
blur that day. There was -- his name was 17
mentioned but there was something else after that 18
as well, because I remember the officers getting 19
together and I don't know what that was about. 20
The officers got together after announcements were 21
made and stuff like that. 22
So the RSM came out and then the 23
RSM dismissed the soldiers, the non-commissioned 24
soldiers and everybody, you know, went over to 25
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46
have a bite to eat or whatever and started to 1
drink. 2
And then I asked my sergeant -- I 3
was like, "So how long do we have to be here?" He 4
was like, "Well, you've got to stay for at least, 5
you know, two hours or so or maybe even a little 6
longer" he said. "Come and ask me in about an 7
hour and I'll have a better idea of when you can 8
go". 9
So after he told me that then I 10
walked out of the hangar and right around the 11
corner from the hangar is the Duty Centre. I went 12
and hanged out there because, you know, it didn't 13
look like they were drinking. Nobody was drinking 14
around there at that time. 15
So I hung around talking to people 16
at the Duty Centre and as I was, you know, 17
chatting up with them guys I was just like leaning 18
against the table like this. And up on the 19
right-hand corner of the table, the desk that I 20
was leaning against, was a sign-in book for Stu's 21
suicide watch, because according to them every 22
half-hour to 45 minutes that someone had to go 23
over and check on him and then come back and come 24
fill in that sheet or in the booklet they had to 25
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47
sign in. 1
And when I looked at the booklet, 2
it had been three and a half hours since the last 3
person who checked on him had signed in on that 4
sheet. And I said to the duty driver, I said, 5
it's been three -- 6
MR. FREIMAN: Do you remember who 7
the duty driver was? 8
MR. LACKIE: Roger. And I said to 9
him, I said, it's been three and a half hours 10
since someone checked on Stu. I said, why don't 11
you fly the f--- over there and check on him, I 12
said, you know, you're doing nothing, you're 13
sitting around here joking and whatever. I said, 14
this is bullshit. 15
So he got up after MCpl Torney, 16
you know, like nodded, agreed with me, and then he 17
was like, "Yeah, go check on him". So after 18
Torney told him to, then he got up and he got in 19
the van and he went over. 20
MR. FREIMAN: Let me just stop you 21
for a minute. Would it surprise you if I told you 22
that MCpl Torney was not on duty at the duty 23
centre that day, it was someone else entirely? 24
MR. LACKIE: He was there. 25
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MR. FREEMAN: Okay. 1
MR. LACKIE: Whether he was on 2
duty or not, he was there. And people come and go 3
all the time to fill in for each other, going for 4
a smoke or going for a pee, or whatever. 5
MR. FREIMAN: Alright. After the 6
driver was sent, what happened? 7
MR. LACKIE: The driver was sent 8
over and then I still stood there -- no, I went 9
back in, just popped my head in to the event and 10
just said, "What are you doing?" the same thing, 11
drinking and puttering around. So I came back 12
out. 13
And then that's when I heard like 14
all the sirens going off, like fire trucks and 15
ambulances and police, and I was like wondering 16
what that's for. And then there was a phone call 17
that came in and -- 18
MR. FREIMAN: Where were you when 19
you said there was a phone call that came in? 20
MR. LACKIE: I was standing by the 21
doorway to the office, to the duty centre. And 22
then -- do you want me to repeat what I heard? 23
MR. FREIMAN: Yes, please. 24
MR. LACKIE: Okay. So it just went 25
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down like, "Holy fuck, I can't believe that. No 1
way!" and then I just put two and two together, 2
with the ambulances and fire trucks and everything 3
else. I just left and I ran across the fields to 4
the shacks, and by the time I got there, there's, 5
you know, several EMs, firemen and military police 6
there. 7
And then I tried to go down the 8
hallway to Stu's room and the military police 9
officers stopped me. He goes, "You can't go down 10
there right now". I was like, "I'm just going 11
down and check on my friend". And he goes, "You 12
can't go down there right now". And I said, 13
"Well, can you tell me what's going on?" and he 14
was like, "No, I can't tell you". And I said, 15
"Well, can you tell me if it's my friend?" I 16
said, "His name is Stu Langridge". He says, "I 17
can't you anything right now." He says, "You're 18
going to have to go outside and wait until 19
everything gets cleared up". 20
So at that time I went out the 21
back door where the smoking section is and I hung 22
around there and -- then some people came down a 23
little later, and I guess they heard some chatter 24
of some people upstairs saying that Stu hung 25
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himself. And I just put my smoke out and went 1
home. 2
MR. FREIMAN: Did it surprise you 3
that Stuart hung himself? 4
MR. LACKIE: Yeah. I thought he 5
would try something where he could come back from, 6
like take pills or cut his wrist or something, you 7
know that old saying, like I said, the one where 8
you can cry for help and you can come back from 9
it, but you can't come back from this, so -- 10
MR. FREIMAN: Did you try to tell 11
this story to anyone? 12
MR. LACKIE: Pardon me? 13
MR. FREIMAN: Did you try to tell 14
the story you just told us to anyone after 15
Stuart's death? 16
MR. LACKIE: Yeah. I told my 17
regimental padre, and when I got incarcerated I 18
told my regimental padre again about the 19
investigation, and then I told -- 20
MR. FREIMAN: What investigation? 21
MR. LACKIE: That there is an 22
investigation supposedly into the people who knew 23
things about what had happened that day. 24
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 25
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MR. LACKIE: I said nobody asked 1
me any questions yet, and I said, are they going 2
to ask me questions? And he goes, "I don't know. 3
I'll look into it for you and if I find anything 4
out, I'll tell you." And then my troop leader had 5
come in to visit me and I asked him as well about 6
it, about Stu's death, and had anything come about 7
or had anything been said, do they know what's 8
going on. 9
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 10
Did you contact the military 11
directly or the military police directly to give a 12
statement? 13
MR. LACKIE: Later on after I was 14
released from incarceration, I taught a fitness 15
class one morning and after my fitness class was 16
done, as you walk into the garrison gates, the 17
military police headquarters is right there. I 18
walked in and I asked the gentleman that was 19
behind the glass partition if there was still 20
questions or an investigation going on into Stu's 21
death, and they said yeah, they're still 22
questioning people to get the whole story. And I 23
said to him, I said, "Well, I haven't been 24
questioned yet and, you know, I was part of those 25
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people that should be investigated, I guess", and 1
he took down my name, my rank, my service number 2
and my extension for my duty centre at work. And 3
that was that. 4
MR. FREIMAN: Did anything come of 5
it? 6
MR. LACKIE: Nothing. 7
MR. FREIMAN: We've made inquiries 8
and we've asked for a search to be done of the 9
military policy records to see if there's any 10
record of your contacting the military police, and 11
I can tell you that the searches came back 12
negative and there's no record of you having been 13
in contact with the military police. 14
Do you have any explanation for 15
that? 16
MR. LACKIE: They're not doing 17
their job. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Just a second. 19
--- Pause 20
MR. FREIMAN: All of this 21
happened, if I understand your efforts that you 22
talked about, happened in 2009 after you were 23
released from your incarceration. 24
Did you try anything in 2008, 25
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between the day of Stuart's death and the time you 1
had your run in with the law? Did you try to 2
contact anybody? 3
MR. LACKIE: I tried to contact 4
the regimental padre. I went through the family 5
resource centre in the regiment, to Cpl Davis. 6
He's the one who runs the family resource centre, 7
and I asked him where the padre was because I 8
needed to talk to him about that subject. 9
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 10
I understand tat your father 11
contacted the Military Police Complaints 12
Commission about two weeks ago or 10 days ago, and 13
you were interviewed last week. Is that correct? 14
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 15
MR. FREIMAN: Can you tell me, why 16
did you come forward at this time to tell your 17
story to this Commission? 18
MR. LACKIE: I've always tried to 19
contact somebody. I called up different military 20
police extensions and I've contacted Stu 21
Langridge's web site on Facebook. I tried to get 22
a hold of his mother through those means. I tried 23
to contact the individual who wrote the very first 24
article about the investigation being botched. I 25
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tried to contact him. I sent him an e-mail with 1
my return e-mail address on it saying "Please have 2
Stu's family contact me". 3
I never let up whatsoever on this 4
subject. And the whole thing is that I want Stu's 5
mom and everybody to know the truth about what's 6
going on, because right from the get-go other 7
names have been named or whatever and the truth 8
has not been told. 9
MR. FREIMAN: Have you told us the 10
truth today? 11
MR. LACKIE: One hundred percent. 12
MR. FREIMAN: Thank you. 13
Those are my questions. 14
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 15
We've been about an hour and a 16
half so we'll take a break until 1115. 17
--- Upon recessing at 1102 / Suspension à 1102 18
--- Upon resuming at 1116 / Reprise à 1116 19
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 20
Colonel Drapeau. 21
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Thank you, 22
Mr. Chair. 23
EXAMINATION BY 24
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Good 25
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morning, Mr. Lackie. 1
MR. LACKIE: Good morning. 2
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Mr. Lackie, 3
are you represented by counsel now, as we speak? 4
MR. LACKIE: No. 5
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Did you 6
consult counsel prior to contacting the 7
Commission? 8
MR. LACKIE: No. 9
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: At any time 10
from the time that you decided to contact the 11
Commission, did you have counsel with you? 12
MR. LACKIE: No. 13
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Your dad 14
phoned the Commission originally. 15
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 16
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Why is that, 17
as opposed to yourself? 18
MR. LACKIE: I called what numbers 19
I had and then my dad called what numbers he had. 20
My dad's got a lot more contacts, being in the 21
system a lot longer than me. 22
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: When you 23
contacted the Commission, did you inform them 24
right away of your criminal record? You phoned 25
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the Commission; during the interview, did you 1
advise them that you had a criminal record? 2
MR. LACKIE: Once I spoke to them, 3
yes. 4
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: You put that 5
on the table, right from the get-go? 6
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 7
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Did you 8
expect that if you came here there could be some 9
media coverage and your criminal records would 10
receive quite significant exposure? 11
MR. LACKIE: That my criminal 12
record would -- 13
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Right, as we 14
saw here this morning during your questions, that 15
that would be exposed for all to hear and to read 16
about it. 17
MR. LACKIE: I guess so. 18
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: But that did 19
not stop you from contacting the Commission. 20
MR. LACKIE: No. 21
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Why? 22
MR. LACKIE: Because the truth 23
needed to be told. 24
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: And that was 25
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more powerful than the possible negative coverage 1
on your criminal record? 2
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 3
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: During your 4
testimony, questions were asked about the issue of 5
the suicide watch. Am I right to say that you 6
formed the belief that Stu in fact was under a 7
suicide watch? 8
MR. LACKIE: Formed the belief? 9
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Did you 10
believe that he was under a suicide watch? 11
MR. LACKIE: He was. 12
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: He was? 13
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 14
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Were you 15
alone in having this opinion about whether or not 16
he was under a suicide watch or not? 17
MR. LACKIE: No, it was general 18
knowledge through the regiment. 19
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Could you 20
explain to me what you mean by "general 21
knowledge"? People would talk to you about this? 22
Some individuals of senior ranks who had referred 23
to it, or what? 24
MR. LACKIE: Everybody would talk 25
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about it in the smoking section or while they're 1
at work or whatever, would say, "Yeah, did you 2
hear Stu's on suicide watch" or, you know, "They 3
have to look after him", stuff like that. 4
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Would your 5
chain of command also refer to it as Stu being on 6
a suicide watch? 7
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 8
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: I'm looking 9
whether or not somebody higher up in ranks to 10
you -- master corporals, sergeants, officers -- 11
would be using these words. 12
MR. LACKIE: I know up to a 13
sergeant would, that I personally heard. 14
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: And what 15
would be the name of that sergeant? 16
MR. LACKIE: Sgt Clark. 17
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Your 18
sergeant, your chain of command. 19
You said during your testimony 20
that in Stu's last days, he always had a partner 21
accompanying him, that was with him. 22
MR. LACKIE: Yes. For the most 23
part, yeah. 24
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Would you 25
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remember who that was? 1
MR. LACKIE: I wasn't with him all 2
the time. 3
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: And how do 4
you know? You saw them together? 5
MR. LACKIE: That's what Stu told 6
me, that there was always usually someone with him 7
or he had to report -- every two hours he had to 8
call in and say, "Well, I'm in the shacks" or -- 9
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: So if I get 10
your testimony right, in addition to having to 11
report every two hours or so, he always had 12
somebody with him during that intervening time? 13
MR. LACKIE: When he said he was 14
in the shacks, he wouldn't have somebody, like, in 15
his room with him, but other than that. 16
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: And did Stu 17
ever give you a name who that partner or person 18
would be? 19
MR. LACKIE: No. 20
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: You asked 21
your sergeant, you said, the day before Stu 22
committed suicide, that you be excused from 23
attending a regimental function. 24
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 25
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COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: What was the 1
name of that sergeant? 2
MR. LACKIE: Sgt Clark. 3
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Clark. 4
Again, your leader. 5
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 6
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: That is all 7
of my questions. Thank you. 8
THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Richards. 9
MS RICHARDS: Thank you. 10
EXAMINATION BY 11
MS RICHARDS: Good morning, Mr. 12
Lackie. I just have a few questions for you. 13
Are you aware that both Jay 14
Hillier and Jon Rohmer have testified in this 15
hearing? 16
MR. LACKIE: No. 17
MS RICHARDS: Would it surprise 18
you to hear that they never mentioned your name 19
during their testimony? 20
MR. LACKIE: No. 21
MS RICHARDS: When you referenced 22
the duty driver who was on duty that day and you 23
said Roger, were you referring to Roger Hurlburt? 24
MR. LACKIE: I'd have to see a 25
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61
picture of him. 1
MS RICHARDS: Okay. 2
Are you aware that there's a Roger 3
Hurlburt that's both given statements to the 4
military police and testified before this 5
Commission that he was the duty driver on that 6
day? 7
MR. LACKIE: I'll take your word 8
for it but, like I said, in order to know his last 9
name I'd have to see his picture. 10
MS RICHARDS: And would it 11
surprise you that that person has never mentioned 12
your name or never stated that you provided any 13
information to him or talk to him on the day of 14
Stuart's death? 15
MR. LACKIE: That's because he's 16
still in the military. 17
MS RICHARDS: And when you 18
referred to the regimental padre, is that Padre 19
Hubbard? 20
MR. LACKIE: Is he in Gagetown? 21
MS RICHARDS: No, this would be in 22
Edmonton. 23
MR. LACKIE: The padre that I was 24
speaking about got transferred to Gagetown. 25
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MS RICHARDS: And you don't know 1
his name? 2
MR. LACKIE: No. 3
MS RICHARDS: Okay. And what was -- 4
THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. You did 5
say transferred to -- 6
MS RICHARDS: To Gagetown. 7
THE CHAIRPERSON: Transferred to 8
Gagetown? 9
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 10
MS RICHARDS: When you talked 11
about the fact that you went to the MP 12
Headquarters after your release from 13
incarceration -- 14
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 15
MS RICHARDS: If I'm correct, that 16
was around April 2009? 17
MR. LACKIE: I don't know. It was 18
after I -- shortly after I got out, when I started 19
back to my duties of teaching PT. 20
MS RICHARDS: Okay. So as I 21
understand your testimony earlier from Mr. 22
Freiman, you were first arrested in December 2008. 23
That's correct? 24
MR. LACKIE: Yes. 25
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MS RICHARDS: And then you were 1
released in February 2009. 2
MR. LACKIE: I'm not positive of 3
the dates. 4
MS RICHARDS: Okay. So is it fair 5
to say that it would have been somewhere between 6
January and April 2009? Is that a fair 7
assessment? 8
MR. LACKIE: No, no. It was after 9
I was released from my whole stint. 10
MS RICHARDS: And so, based on the 11
records we have, I understand that that was in and 12
around April 2009. Is that about accurate? 13
MR. LACKIE: Yeah. 14
MS RICHARDS: Would it surprise 15
you to hear that there was no ongoing military 16
police investigation into Stuart Langridge's death 17
at that time? 18
MR. LACKIE: I just went to 19
inquire. 20
MS RICHARDS: Okay. 21
Thank you. Those are all my 22
questions. 23
THE CHAIRPERSON: Any re-exam? 24
MR. FREIMAN: (Shakes head in 25
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negative.) 1
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Lackie, I 2
want to thank you for, number one, taking the time 3
to contact the Commission and, number two, for 4
being here with us today to provide your 5
information for purposes of the evidence. So 6
thank you very much. 7
MR. LACKIE: You're welcome. 8
THE CHAIRPERSON: It's 11125. 9
If the next witness is here now, 10
it might be worthwhile to start it and go until 11
1230 and then we can break for lunch at that time. 12
We'll just take 5-10 minutes to 13
switch witnesses and have the room ready. 14
Thank you. 15
--- Upon recessing at 1126 / Suspension à 1126 16
--- Upon resuming at 1136 / Reprise à 1136 17
SWORN: SGT SCOTT SHANNON 18
THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome, 19
Sergeant. 20
SGT SHANNON: Good morning. 21
EXAMINATION BY 22
MR. FREIMAN: Good morning, 23
Sergeant. 24
SGT SHANNON: Good morning, sir. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: I always make a 1
point of telling every new witness not to take an 2
adverse inference from the fact that I've got a 3
cup of coffee with me. 4
Sergeant, I would begin by asking 5
you about your career in the military, your 6
training, especially your training with respect to 7
policing duties. So if you could take us from 8
your enlistment down to today. 9
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. Good 10
morning, Mr. Chair. 11
My name is Sergeant Scott Shannon. 12
I hail from the Town of Canmore in the Province of 13
Alberta and I joined the Canadian Forces in July 14
of 1999. 15
And following my basic training in 16
Quebec I proceeded to the Military Police Academy 17
in Ontario where I completed my QL3 level 18
training. 19
Following that training I was 20
posted to 17 Wing Detachment Dundurn in 21
Saskatchewan -- 22
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 23
SGT SHANNON: -- where I served 24
for the next four and a half years, which also 25
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included my first international deployment to the 1
Persian Gulf where I did general patrol duties. 2
In 2005 I was selected to be 3
posted to the National Investigation Service in 4
Halifax and I transferred from Saskatchewan to 5
Nova Scotia. Then for the next six years I served 6
with the National Investigation Service and 7
conducted a number of investigations towards their 8
mandate. 9
With regards to my training, in 10
2001 I became a Scenes of Crimes Officer from a 11
training course with the Royal Canadian Mounted 12
Police and that course relates to crime scene 13
examination and the identification and collection 14
of forensic evidence. 15
In 2004 I attended the Military 16
Police Investigation course at the Military Police 17
Academy where we focused on conducting more 18
serious investigations. 19
I also have training in 20
cybercrime, electronic crime scene examination, 21
sexual assault investigator from the Ontario 22
Police College, and I also have a diploma in Law 23
Enforcement, an Honour's degree in Criminal 24
Justice and I'm currently studying for my Master's 25
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degree in Public Administration. 1
MR. FREIMAN: I noticed, sir, that 2
in that list of courses one course that wasn't 3
there that we've seen a number of other members of 4
the Military Police have taken is the forensic 5
interviewing techniques. 6
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. I do not 7
have that course. 8
MR. FREIMAN: All right. Does 9
that have any implications for the sorts of 10
activities on an investigation that you can and 11
can't do? 12
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 13
MR. FREIMAN: All right. So 14
there's no obstacle for you to conduct an 15
interview? 16
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 17
MR. FREIMAN: And as near as I can 18
tell, you've had a fairly lengthy career in the -- 19
or you've had a good number of years of 20
investigations with the NIS. 21
Can you give us an idea of the 22
range of cases that you've been called on to 23
investigate? 24
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. So 25
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throughout my career I've conducted 109 criminal 1
investigations as the primary lead investigator. 2
Of those 109, that includes 13 3
sudden death investigations in Afghanistan, and 4
also I have conducted four additional death 5
investigations, one in The Bahamas and the other 6
three in Canada. 7
I have also conducted a very 8
complex, lengthy historical investigation into a 9
serial pedophile which occurred in the 1980s, and 10
that investigation resulted in the identification 11
of eight victims and a number of charges against 12
the suspect. 13
I've also conducted a number of 14
lengthy, complex investigations into serial sex 15
offenders, fraud investigations, conduct related 16
to the National Defence Act offences, specifically 17
negligent performance of a military duty. 18
And I've also conducted a number 19
of investigations into child pornography and 20
fraud. 21
MR. FREIMAN: With respect to the 22
negligent discharge of a military duty, can you 23
give us an idea before you were called upon to 24
help out on this case -- first of all, had you 25
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done any of those investigations before you worked 1
on the case that brings us here together today? 2
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sirs 3
MR. FREIMAN: Can you give us -- 4
obviously respecting confidentiality as 5
necessary -- an idea of what the nature of that 6
charge was? 7
SGT SHANNON: The one 8
investigation that I was involved with was -- 9
occurred in Afghanistan and related to the conduct 10
of a Commander which resulted in the death of an 11
Afghan citizen. 12
The second one was related to 13
allegations of misappropriation of funds in an 14
international setting, in the Persian Gulf. 15
And the third time related to the 16
conduct of a Senior Non-Commissioned Member 17
regarding his completion of training courses. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Can you tell me from 19
your experience whether there is any difference in 20
conducting an investigation for the negligent 21
discharge of a military duty from conducting, say, 22
an investigation into sexual assault or one of the 23
other serious crimes that you have investigated? 24
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. The 25
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primary difference is the identification or the 1
status of the -- of what we would call victim. So 2
in a sexual assault investigation you have a clear 3
victim or a number of victims, a person victim. 4
We call it a person crime. 5
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 6
SGT SHANNON: In an investigation 7
of negligent performance of duty there is no 8
person victim per se. So the victim in those 9
types of cases becomes the Crown. 10
MR. FREIMAN: All right. Are 11
there any other differences that spring to mind? 12
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 13
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 14
In terms of the identification of 15
the accused person, have you ever -- aside from 16
the case that bring us here today and we'll 17
discuss whether this applies -- but have you ever 18
been involved in an investigation where it may not 19
be clear at the onset of the investigation who 20
precisely is being complained against? 21
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 22
MR. FREIMAN: Can you tell us 23
about that? 24
SGT SHANNON: In the previous case 25
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that I mentioned where I conducted the 1
investigation into the serial sex offender, so at 2
the onset of the case, the presentation of the 3
evidence by the initial victim, the suspect was 4
unknown to both the victim and law enforcement. 5
And as a result of our 6
investigative activities we were able to, number 7
one, identify the prime suspect and also link him 8
to three other victims over a period of time and 9
we were able to obtain a full confession from him 10
for all his actions. 11
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. Now, we're 12
going to break this down in a little more detail 13
in a few minutes but I might as well just ask you 14
now. 15
In terms of identification of the 16
accused or the potential accused in the current 17
case when you were looking at negligent 18
performance of a military duty, did you have a 19
clear idea at any time as to who the potential 20
suspects were? 21
SGT SHANNON: For the 2009 next of 22
kin allegation -- 23
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 24
SGT SHANNON: -- file, the 25
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potential suspects were identified by the 1
third-party complainant, the Ombudsman's Office, 2
and the primary complainant, Mr. and Mrs. Fynes. 3
In the second investigation, the 4
2010 investigation related to criminal negligence, 5
the alleged offenders were not identified by the 6
complainant. 7
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 8
Now, just to round out this 9
discussion, when you are handed an investigation, 10
is it your view that you are investigating an 11
incident or an occurrence on the one hand or are 12
you investigating a specific offence with respect 13
to either known or unknown perpetrators? 14
SGT SHANNON: Within the field of 15
law enforcement there has been a change in the 16
direction in which police investigations are 17
conducted. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 19
SGT SHANNON: So I would put it 20
around 2005 there was a change in direction from 21
the first model that you presented to a more 22
scientific approach to conducting investigations. 23
So today within the National 24
Investigation Service and broader in the Military 25
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Police we focus on the investigation of offences 1
and not on people or individual or a collection of 2
actions. 3
So upon the receipt of a 4
complaint, either in writing or verbal or by the 5
police discovering a crime, the first step in the 6
general investigation sequence is the 7
identification of potential offences that may meet 8
the circumstances of the situation at hand. 9
MR. FREIMAN: All right. Well, 10
let's hold that thought for a moment because I 11
would like to go through a little bit of 12
chronology but I would like to pick up with you 13
when we get back to it this newer idea and how it 14
worked itself out in the current investigation. 15
Before we do that though, I am 16
aware that you may have been involved in the 17
drafting of a Standard Operating Procedure with 18
respect to sudden deaths. 19
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 20
MR. FREIMAN: All right. Can you 21
tell us how you came to be involved in that and 22
what your role was? 23
SGT SHANNON: When I was still 24
posted to the National Investigation Service 25
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office in Halifax, the Atlantic Region, I was 1
approached by my Officer Commanding, Captain 2
Black, and myself and my colleague Sgt Brian St. 3
John were provided with the task of reviewing an 4
initial draft of the SOP and to prepare -- I 5
believe it's listed as Annex E, which is the 6
Briefing Protocol for Family Members. 7
In addition to our work in 8
drafting Annex E, the Briefing Protocol for 9
Families, we also analyzed the initial draft of 10
the Sudden Death Investigation SOP and we provided 11
our input based on our own personal experiences 12
and training. 13
MR. FREIMAN: The record of your 14
accomplishments that you gave us is quite 15
impressive, but was there a specific reason, any 16
specific background training interest that 17
resulted in your being assigned to this particular 18
task? 19
SGT SHANNON: I believe I was 20
selected due to my experience in conducting 13 21
investigations in a combat environment into the 22
death of fallen heroes and into the entire process 23
of doing those types of investigations in a combat 24
environment and the challenges and the tasks 25
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involved in conducting mortuary affairs, 1
processing in an international setting, and also 2
into meeting the standards of the Ontario 3
Coroner's Act, which applies to all fatalities of 4
Canadian Forces members outside the borders of 5
Canada -- 6
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 7
SGT SHANNON: -- and in addition 8
my additional experience in being the lead 9
investigator in a joint investigation with the 10
Royal Bahamian Police into the death of a Canadian 11
service member in Bahamas and also assisting the 12
RCMP in a homicide investigation and two other 13
sudden death investigations which I was involved 14
in. 15
MR. FREIMAN: Were any of these 16
sudden death investigations -- did any of them 17
involve suicide? 18
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 19
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So you had 20
some background and experience in the 21
investigation of sudden deaths that were found to 22
be suicides? 23
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 24
MR. FREIMAN: Now, in the 25
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impressive array of books in front you there 1
should be a series of four volumes with tabs 2
called "Document Index for Subjects of the 3
Complaint." I think it's the ones with the green 4
cover. 5
And if you could find Volume 3 -- 6
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 7
MR. FREIMAN: -- and open it at 8
Tab 76. 9
Is this part of the work that you 10
helped to put together? 11
SGT SHANNON: The formal SOP, the 12
main body of the SOP was -- we were provided with 13
the initial draft and then we provided our review 14
and our comments and our suggestions for 15
improvements and inclusions. 16
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 17
SGT SHANNON: But my primary body 18
of work was for Annex E only. 19
MR. FREIMAN: Only for Annex E. 20
So in fact you didn't participate in this part of 21
the exercise? 22
SGT SHANNON: For the actual main 23
body of the SOP? 24
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 25
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SGT SHANNON: Myself and Sergeant 1
St. John, we did provide our comments and our 2
recommendations for improvements and inclusions to 3
the main body of the SOP. Whether those 4
recommendations were accepted and included I can't 5
say. 6
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 7
Well, I wonder if you could just 8
turn up paragraph 21, which is on page 7 of 7 at 9
the bottom. 10
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 11
MR. FREIMAN: Now, sorry, you said 12
you participated in the Annexes. So Annex E, I 13
think, is at the end of this; is that right? 14
SGT SHANNON: Yes. The Annex that 15
I worked on with Sergeant St. John in drafting 16
from the start is Annex E, the Sudden Death Next 17
of Kin Briefing Aid. 18
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 19
So with the benefit of Annex E and 20
looking at paragraph 21 as necessary, can you tell 21
me what your understanding is of the current 22
protocol with respect to suicide notes, what to 23
tell the family, when to tell the family, what to 24
give the family, when to give it to them? 25
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SGT SHANNON: With regards to the 1
topic of suicide notes there -- there was no 2
discussions or inclusion in the work that I did 3
with Sergeant St. John in preparing Annex E -- 4
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 5
SGT SHANNON: -- because our main 6
focus is on the briefing at the end of the 7
investigative process to provide closure to the 8
family. 9
So Annex E identifies an initial 10
briefing process and -- but its main focus is on 11
the end briefing that you would provide to members 12
of a family. 13
So I can't speak to the topic of 14
suicide notes in this regard. 15
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 16
SGT SHANNON: However, in my own 17
experience, which is limited to the requirements 18
of the Ontario Coroner's Act and the Halifax 19
Coroner's Act, from my experience the activities 20
and the actions for seizing evidence and personal 21
property and belongings at the scene of a sudden 22
death is the responsibility of the Coroner and not 23
the police. 24
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So let's talk 25
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a little bit then about your area of expertise, 1
which is briefings. 2
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 3
MR. FREIMAN: And you said that 4
the main focus was on the final briefing of the 5
family? 6
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 7
MR. FREIMAN: Can you tell me what 8
is the recommendation or what is the Standard 9
Operating Procedure for briefing the families? 10
What is expected of investigators to tell the 11
families at the end of the investigation? 12
SGT SHANNON: So the first point, 13
sir, is that the briefing, the final briefing -- 14
both the initial briefing and the final briefing 15
should not ever be conducted by the lead 16
investigator or the investigators involved in the 17
investigation. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Tell me why that is. 19
SGT SHANNON: So the rationale 20
behind that is because the lead investigators -- 21
the lead investigator and the secondary 22
investigators need to be given the time, the 23
flexibility and the ability to focus on 24
investigating the incident at hand, and any 25
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potential secondary duty such as meeting with the 1
families could potentially delay the investigative 2
process, which could also potentially hamper the 3
identification and collection of relevant 4
evidence. 5
And if it was not a 6
suicide-related file but a file where there was a 7
suspect involved in the causation of death, then 8
that could potentially also further delay the 9
ultimate goal of an investigation in that 10
particular case, which would be to apprehend the 11
offender and process him through the criminal 12
justice system. 13
So the policy and the guidelines 14
that we created specify that all briefings to 15
family should be conducted by the two senior 16
members of the Investigation Detachment. 17
So in the case of the National 18
Investigation Service, among each Detachment 19
spread across the country there is an Officer 20
Commanding and a Master Warrant Officer Senior 21
Investigator that is assigned to command each 22
Detachment. So our directives or our policies 23
that we developed specify that all briefings 24
should be conducted by those two individuals after 25
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consulting with the lead investigator. 1
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 2
So in our own case that would have 3
been Warrant Bonneteau and Major Dandurand or am I 4
getting it wrong? 5
SGT SHANNON: The briefing, I 6
believe, for the initial occasion -- 7
MR. FREIMAN: I'm not asking who 8
did it. I'm asking under your Standard Operating 9
Procedure the expectation would be that those 10
would be the two individuals who would be handling 11
the briefings? 12
SGT SHANNON: It should have been 13
the Officer Commanding and the Master Warrant 14
Officer. If the Master Warrant Officer is not 15
available, then the Warrant Officer would step in. 16
And if the OC was unavailable, the two more senior 17
members of the Detachment that would be available 18
at the time should conduct that briefing. 19
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So let's talk 20
about the initial briefing and then let's talk 21
about the final briefing. 22
SGT SHANNON: M'hmm. 23
MR. FREIMAN: In terms of the 24
recommendations you made and the standard 25
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operating principles that you thought were 1
appropriate, what should go into an initial 2
briefing? 3
SGT SHANNON: The initial briefing 4
should be very brief. It should be -- it should 5
be conducted relatively quickly following the 6
tragic event that brings the two parties together 7
and it includes the involvement of the Assisting 8
Officer that has been assigned by the Canadian 9
Forces to assist the family in question. 10
And the purpose of the initial 11
briefing is just to simply identify the fact that 12
there is a police investigation that is going to 13
take place, provide a general context as to the 14
substance and the purpose of that police 15
investigation, and to provide some general 16
information as to the way ahead. 17
And at the end of the process a 18
final briefing will occur which will provide as 19
much information as possible to satisfy the 20
questions of the family. 21
MR. FREIMAN: And what about the 22
final briefing? 23
SGT SHANNON: That is the -- 24
MR. FREIMAN: That's -- 25
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SGT SHANNON: Oh, and then at the 1
final briefing -- 2
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 3
SGT SHANNON: -- the final 4
briefing should be conducted by the same two 5
individuals that did the initial because obviously 6
a bond has been established. 7
And then at the final briefing it 8
is an opportunity for the police to provide the 9
family with the findings of the investigation that 10
relate to issues such as the cause of death, 11
anything that has been developed -- anything that 12
has been discovered. 13
It's a very sensitive moment, it's 14
a very sensitive time, and the briefing team would 15
then respond to questions from the family in that 16
setting and be able to provide them as much 17
information as possible within applicable policies 18
to meet the needs of the family. 19
So the ultimate purpose of the 20
family briefing at the end of a sudden death 21
investigation is to provide closure and to satisfy 22
their need for information about the cause of 23
death of their loved one. 24
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. I have to 25
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confess my own sins, I was thinking a little 1
forward in time. The names that I gave you as 2
potential briefers is probably wrong given the 3
timeframe of the sudden death investigation, but 4
you have -- 5
SGT SHANNON: Like research, if 6
you were to go back in time, so the initial 7
investigation into the passing of Corporal 8
Langridge, I do not believe that this policy was 9
in place -- 10
MR. FREIMAN: No. 11
SGT SHANNON: -- and so I can't 12
speak to how the issue of talking to the members 13
of the families involved was dealt with by the 14
chain of command at that time, and I also was not 15
a member of the Edmonton office at that time as 16
well. 17
MR. FREIMAN: Yeah. 18
SGT SHANNON: And then for this -- 19
the briefing issues for the second two files, the 20
briefers were going to be Major Dandurand and 21
Warrant Officer Bonneteau. 22
MR. FREIMAN: Right. So I was 23
going to ask you, is there a difference between 24
the protocol when briefing families with respect 25
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to a sudden death investigation and briefing 1
families with respect to the kinds of 2
investigations -- the 2009 and 2010 investigation 3
that you were involved in? 4
SGT SHANNON: The policy that we 5
have here that we are reviewing would not apply to 6
the second two investigations, the 2009 and 2010. 7
The category of offences that are in those two 8
investigative files do not fall under the purview 9
of the briefing protocols that we have been 10
discussing. 11
MR. FREIMAN: So are there any 12
expectations? 13
SGT SHANNON: From my experience, 14
for these types of offences, I was quite surprised 15
that they were proposing to do a briefing to the 16
family. 17
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. And any was 18
that? 19
SGT SHANNON: Because these types 20
of offences do not fall into the category that 21
typically we consider when we prepared this 22
briefing protocol. 23
MR. FREIMAN: All right. Do I 24
understand, then, that you didn't consider the 25
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issue of briefings in circumstances where rather 1
than simply investigating a sudden death you are 2
investigating a complaint, a third party 3
complaint? 4
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 5
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 6
With respect to the briefing 7
policy that does apply to sudden deaths, what's 8
your understanding of what was in place before the 9
elaboration of this policy? Was this policy brand 10
new or was it based on existing best practices? 11
SGT SHANNON: I believe, sir, that 12
it's brand new. 13
The issue of death investigations 14
within the National Investigation Service and the 15
overall body of the Military Police is a 16
relatively new topic so until the statutory 17
amendments to the National Defence Act occurred in 18
2004-2005, the Military Police, except for in 19
international settings, had no jurisdiction to 20
investigate sudden deaths in Canada. So prior to 21
the amendments to the National Defence Act in 22
2004-2005 the responsibility for all death 23
investigations inside the borders of Canada rested 24
with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and that 25
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included even on military property on bases. 1
So our involvement in these types 2
of investigation is relatively new since that 3
amendment, so there has been a large learning 4
curve and a large requirement to develop 5
responsibilities and knowledge and training within 6
the National Investigation Service and the overall 7
Military Police in response to those legislative 8
changes. 9
So by 2008, because of a number of 10
high profile cases that had occurred, there became 11
a realization within not only the higher chain of 12
command of the Military Police, but also within 13
the body of investigators per se, if you want to 14
call us that group, so we were becoming aware that 15
there were shortcomings in our training and our 16
abilities and we were making recommendations to 17
our chain of command that these types of processes 18
needed to be developed. 19
So in 2008 I believe is when the 20
first directive was generated from the National 21
Headquarters of the NIS -- 22
MR. FREIMAN: Do you remember when 23
in 2008? 24
SGT SHANNON: I can't be specific, 25
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sir, but my brain says the summer months. 1
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 2
SGT SHANNON: And then we worked 3
over the fall I believe to prepare this document. 4
MR. FREIMAN: So was the directive 5
a directive addressed to you to prepare the 6
document or was there an information directive to 7
all NIS members about what was happening? 8
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. So I 9
was -- myself and my co-author, Sergeant St. John, 10
we were briefed by the Officer Commanding, Captain 11
Black, of the requirement and that we had been 12
selected to be the people that would draft this 13
policy and then we put our minds together and... 14
We did have some prior document. 15
We have an Electronic Toolbox it's called, and 16
within that toolbox it's an electronic 17
website-based toolbox and it provides a whole 18
bunch of reference materials in the various 19
divisions of types of offences that are within the 20
mandate of the Nation Investigation Service. So 21
within that national toolbox there was a policy 22
book, I believe it's entitled "Homicide 23
Investigators Checklist", and it was -- it's a 24
draft by the Attorney General for the Province of 25
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British Columbia. And that was our tool and our 1
guidebook for conducting homicide and sudden death 2
investigations. So we drew from our own personal 3
experiences and from the available academic record 4
that was available to us and we generated the 5
draft policies. 6
MR. FREIMAN: I think I 7
understand. 8
In general terms, then, was there 9
any expectation at all, prior to your publication 10
of this SOP, that in the case of sudden death 11
investigations there would be any briefing 12
whatsoever -- 13
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 14
MR. FREIMAN: -- to families? 15
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. It's 16
something that developed over time due to 17
circumstantial circumstances and the recognition 18
by our superiors that such a policy needed to be 19
in place. 20
MR. FREIMAN: Just it occurs to me 21
that I forgot to ask you a couple of general 22
questions about your experience before we leave 23
here. 24
Prior to this investigation had 25
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you had any experience investigating a charge of 1
criminal negligence causing death? 2
SGT SHANNON: Criminal -- not that 3
particular offence, sir. 4
MR. FREIMAN: Any criminal 5
negligence at all? 6
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 7
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 8
At the time that you were involved 9
in the investigation, was there any policy -- did 10
you have any practice of considering service 11
offences as an alternative to Criminal Code 12
offences when you were investigating a complaint? 13
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 14
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 15
SGT SHANNON: So within the 16
provisions of the National Defence Act there is a 17
broaching charge that is available within the 18
National Defence Act -- so it's section 130 of the 19
National Defence Act -- and that section allows 20
for the incorporation of a charge under any other 21
federal statute published by the Government of 22
Canada and it allows for the inclusion of all 23
those federal statutes and brings it into the 24
umbrella of the National Defence Act and the Code 25
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of Service Discipline. 1
So when we are doing the first few 2
steps of the general investigative sequence of any 3
complaint and any charge our first task is to 4
analyze the complaint, to validate the complaint 5
that has been presented and do a comprehensive 6
evaluation of not only the Code of Service 7
Discipline offences, but of other federal statutes 8
that maybe applicable so, for instance, the 9
Criminal Code of Canada, the various bodies of law 10
involving drugs, there is also a federal statute 11
involving the protection of information, so we do 12
conduct that overall broad analysis and keep a 13
very open mind at the onset and identify every 14
potential offence that may describe the events 15
that have been presented in the allegation. 16
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. But what I 17
would like to talk to you about is probably the 18
opposite of what you've described. 19
Had you had any experience at all 20
in situations where the initial complaint was 21
under the Criminal Code and, even though there was 22
no Criminal Code offence that your investigation 23
revealed, possibly because of lack of proper 24
mental element, that the charge you originally 25
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talked about, negligent performance of duty, might 1
be an included offence? 2
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 3
And at the same time when we do 4
that analysis and that evaluation. 5
So the Military Police and the 6
National Investigation Service investigators, we 7
have the unique responsibility within the criminal 8
justice system in Canada where we enforce both 9
criminal statute law that applies to every citizen 10
of our nation and we also have to be able to 11
understand and focus our knowledge on military law 12
and its unique requirements and its unique 13
procedures. So we do have legislative authority 14
to proceed in laying charges under either the 15
civilian criminal justice system in civilian 16
courts or within the military justice system 17
before a court martial. 18
So as a peace officer and a police 19
officer and peace officer within Canada I have the 20
additional burden of having to understand both 21
systems of justice that exist within Canada. I 22
have to have a very good understanding of the 23
criminal processes available within the civilian 24
justice system and also the military system. I 25
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have the discretion when it comes to charge 1
laying, if the evidence supports the laying of a 2
charge, to making a decision whether I'm going to 3
lay the charge in the civilian justice system, 4
through the criminal courts, or if I'm going to 5
proceed by a charge through the military justice 6
system and that all comes into play right at the 7
very onset when we are evaluating potential 8
offences, so we would consider both. 9
If I begin with a Criminal Code 10
allegation -- say in the allegation of sexual 11
assault, if I use that as an example -- and my 12
investigation begins by examining the elements of 13
the offence of sexual assault pursuant to the 14
Criminal Code, throughout the course of my 15
investigation I determine that I am not able to 16
meet the elements of the offence of sexual 17
assault, but I may be able to meet the elements of 18
the offence of abuse of subordinate under the 19
National Defence Act, so as the investigation 20
proceeds my investigative file would note the 21
change in direction due to the evidence that's 22
available and then the investigation would proceed 23
accordingly from a criminal matter in the civilian 24
courts to a purely military matter within the 25
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military justice system. 1
MR. FREIMAN: When this sort of 2
analysis takes place, is there some notation that 3
is put into the file to demonstrate what was 4
thought about and what the process was? 5
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. That 6
would be -- like if the change -- say an example 7
that I suggested, so a change of that nature would 8
be annotated and identified in the investigation 9
plan. 10
MR. FREIMAN: Now, one of the 11
things that we have learned through the course of 12
these hearings is that the records that are 13
maintained by the Military Police allow for an 14
amendment of material in the file. 15
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 16
MR. FREIMAN: And while they tell 17
us the date the amendment took place, they don't 18
tell us what the nature of that amendment is. 19
SGT SHANNON: No. That is a flaw 20
in the system, sir. 21
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. So is there 22
any way, looking at the file, that we could tell 23
the natural history of the investigation, how the 24
investigative plan evolves over time? 25
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SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. If you 1
were to look at the investigation plan for the 2
2009 investigation that I prepared -- I believe 3
it's on 284 of the volume for 2009 -- 4
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 5
SGT SHANNON: So that 6
investigation plan begins with the initial 7
assessment that I did based on my understanding of 8
the allegations that I was tasked to investigate 9
and then based on my subsequent review of the 10
available information over time I determined that 11
there had to be a change in direction or a 12
refocusing of my investigative efforts and the 13
investigation plan was updated accordingly and the 14
new direction and the new substance or the new 15
tasks that I was going to be completing is clearly 16
identified in my investigation plan. 17
MR. FREIMAN: All right. I think 18
I have just lost my train of thought. I was going 19
to ask you about the investigation plan and it's 20
flown out of my mind. Perhaps it will come back. 21
There's a lot of empty space for it to go back and 22
forth. 23
Can we go, then, to the start of 24
the investigation. We know that the 25
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investigation -- we will talk about 2009 first 1
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 2
MR. FREIMAN: We know that the 3
investigation was initiated with Master Seaman 4
McLaughlin -- 5
SGT SHANNON: And Major Dandurand. 6
MR. FREIMAN: -- and Major 7
Dandurand and that Master Seaman McLaughlin then 8
passed the baton, as it were, to Major Dandurand. 9
SGT SHANNON: I believe, sir -- 10
MR. FREIMAN: Sorry, to Sergeant 11
Mitchell. It must have been Master Corporal 12
Mitchell at the time. 13
SGT SHANNON: At the time, yes, 14
sir. 15
MR. FREIMAN: And then over the 16
summer of 2009 I think it was -- 17
SGT SHANNON: Two thousand ten, 18
sir. 19
MR. FREIMAN: Ten. You're way 20
ahead of me. 21
Over the summer of 2010 Master 22
Corporal McLaughlin -- Mitchell was assigned to 23
educational -- put on an educational assignment 24
and left the file. 25
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SGT SHANNON: That's correct. 1
MR. FREIMAN: Can you tell me how 2
the hand-off was accomplished? The hand-off was 3
to you. 4
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 5
So due to operational realities of 6
the National Investigation Service, by the time 7
then Master Corporal Mitchell now Sergeant 8
Mitchell departed to attend his PLQ course I was 9
not available to speak to him directly because I 10
was deployed on another file. So when I arrived 11
in Edmonton after settling my affairs and moving 12
into my new home I began work in August of 2010 13
and at that time within the Western Region office 14
we had 55 ongoing files within the office and I 15
was assigned the duties of team leader and I was 16
assigned four subordinates, investigators, that 17
would comprise my team. And two of my 18
investigators were interns brand new to the 19
National Investigation Service and I had two 20
experienced investigators. So of the 55 ongoing 21
files that were on the books when I arrived in 22
August of 2010, 24 of those files were transferred 23
to my team for investigation. 24
So my initial task was to gain a 25
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general understanding of all 24 major 1
investigations and assign the work accordingly to 2
the members of my team. And when Sergeant 3
Mitchell departed there was no time to do an 4
actual face-to-face meeting so my first steps 5
were, upon being assigned the investigation, I 6
believe which is the 7th of September, I printed 7
off the entire file as it existed in SAMPIS at 8
that time and I took it home over the weekend and 9
read every page that was currently on the file. 10
And that was the first steps that I took. 11
MR. FREIMAN: Did you have 12
occasion to sit down with Major Dandurand, who 13
was -- 14
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 15
MR. FREIMAN: You did not? 16
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 17
MR. FREIMAN: During the course of 18
the time from the time that you picked up the file 19
until you stopped your investigative activities, 20
did you have any meetings or briefings with Major 21
Dandurand? 22
SGT SHANNON: The first briefing I 23
had with Major Dandurand occurred in November of 24
2010 and it was with Major Dandurand, Warrant 25
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Officer Bonneteau, MWO Eisenmenger and Warrant 1
Officer Hart, and that was the first occasion 2
where I presented my findings of the work that I 3
had been conducting over the previous two months. 4
At the end of that briefing I was directed to 5
conduct two follow-up interviews, which were done, 6
and then the next opportunity that I had to brief 7
Major Dandurand was in February of 2011. 8
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So let me 9
just go back for a minute. 10
You say that the first briefing 11
you had with Major Dandurand and others was in 12
what month? 13
SGT SHANNON: November of 2010. 14
MR. FREIMAN: And as a result of 15
that meeting you conducted additional interviews? 16
SGT SHANNON: Correct, sir. 17
MR. FREIMAN: Were those the 18
interviews with Sergeant Pelletier and 19
Lieutenant-Commander -- 20
SGT SHANNON: Gendron. 21
MR. FREIMAN: Gendron? 22
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 23
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 24
Do I understand correctly, then, 25
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that there was basically one meeting with Major 1
Dandurand while you were doing active 2
investigation and then one meeting with Major 3
Dandurand where you briefed him, in effect, on the 4
results of the investigation? 5
SGT SHANNON: The first briefing 6
that I provided to Major Dandurand in November of 7
2010 provided the conclusions that I had reached 8
regarding my investigative activities. In my 9
opinion at that time in November of 2010 I had 10
already concluded my investigative activities and 11
as far as I was concerned no further investigation 12
was required. 13
MR. FREIMAN: But you were 14
directed to conduct additional interviews? 15
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 16
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. I was going 17
to -- well, let me ask you -- and this is getting 18
to the end rather than the beginning, but every 19
investigation there's a tipping point, isn't 20
there, where the "Ah-ha" moment where you come to 21
at least a provisional conclusion either this is 22
going to lead to charges or this isn't going 23
anywhere. 24
Is that your experience? 25
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SGT SHANNON: The decision 1
regarding charges or whether there will be 2
charges, again it's very situational. Sometimes 3
you know right away, you catch the offender in the 4
act, you know. 5
Depending on the type of 6
investigation we are dealing with, so within 7
Military Police policy we have guidelines on the 8
direction and the actions that will be taken 9
dependent on the category of offences. So if you 10
were to refer to Chapter 5 of the MPPTPs, the 11
investigation policy, there is a division of 12
offences into three separate categories and 13
dependent on the category of offences determines 14
the process that will be taken regarding the issue 15
of charge laying and officer discretion. 16
So for instance most NIS files 17
fall under the division of Category 1 offences, 18
which are your indictable offences under the 19
Criminal Code where we have very, very little 20
discretion whether we are going to be presenting a 21
charge -- 22
MR. FREIMAN: I appreciate the 23
assistance you're giving us and we may get further 24
into it, but for the moment I'm not really looking 25
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at the actual nuts and bolts of laying a charge or 1
not a charge, I was just wondering whether in your 2
experience there is that "Ah-ha" moment, a point 3
in your investigation where I mean you can -- 4
things can always change, obviously, and there are 5
some hoops that have to be jumped through in order 6
to conclude the investigation, but you form an 7
impression that this is a file that will lead to a 8
charge or this is a file that will not lead to a 9
charge. 10
SGT SHANNON: From my experience, 11
sir, that tipping point, as you refer to it, would 12
be when the investigator conducts the element of 13
the offence analysis. 14
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 15
SGT SHANNON: So that is a formal 16
process that is detailed in the PowerPoint 17
presentation that is included in the investigation 18
file. So we take every element to the offence 19
that is identified by the statute that we are 20
investigating and we apply an examination of every 21
piece of evidence and we conclude whether we can 22
or cannot establish the elements of the offence. 23
That is the time when a decision is made whether 24
there will be a charge or there will not be a 25
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charge. 1
MR. FREIMAN: All right. Now, you 2
told us that by the time you were briefing Major 3
Dandurand you had already in your own mind come to 4
a conclusion, first of all, that you had done 5
enough investigating and, secondly, that there was 6
no grounds to lay a charge. 7
SGT SHANNON: That's not 8
necessarily -- the issue of laying a charge was 9
not relevant. 10
MR. FREIMAN: Right. 11
SGT SHANNON: At that time my 12
decisions and my conclusions based on the 13
evaluation of evidence was that the elements of 14
the offence -- 15
MR. FREIMAN: Had not been -- 16
SGT SHANNON: -- had not been 17
established. Therefore, the allegations were 18
unfounded. 19
MR. FREIMAN: All right. And you 20
had done that prior to the two interviews that you 21
conducted. 22
So do I understand correctly that 23
you had formed that opinion based primarily on 24
your file review and, as we will see after lunch, 25
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on a policy review that you had conducted? 1
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 2
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. Now, before 3
we look at 2009 I would like just briefly to ask 4
you some questions about 2010. 5
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 6
MR. FREIMAN: Were you the lead 7
investigator for 2010? 8
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 9
MR. FREIMAN: Did you have any 10
role with respect to -- well, who was the lead 11
investigator for 2010? 12
SGT SHANNON: The lead 13
investigator of the 2000 file was Sergeant 14
Mitchell. 15
MR. FREIMAN: That never changed, 16
did it? 17
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 18
MR. FREIMAN: So did you have any 19
responsibilities vis-à-vis the 2010 file? 20
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. In 21
February of 2011 I was tasked by Warrant Officer 22
Bonneteau to review the 2010 file and incorporate 23
that file into my briefing to the OC of NIS 24
(Western Region), the PowerPoint presentation that 25
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is in the file. 1
MR. FREIMAN: Right. 2
SGT SHANNON: So upon receiving 3
that task I read the file, the limited information 4
that was available. 5
I took the letter of allegation 6
that was presented to the NIS by Mr. Fynes. I 7
conducted an independent and thorough review of 8
the allegations that he presented. 9
I conducted an evaluation of the 10
three Criminal Code sections that he identified in 11
his letter. 12
I conducted an extensive case law 13
review for the specific allegation of criminal 14
negligence causing death. 15
And I determined through my own 16
independent analysis of the Criminal Code and 17
available case law that those applicable offences 18
did not apply in this situation and, therefore, 19
the task of offence validation which is part of a 20
general investigation sequence was not successful 21
and therefore there was no need to conduct any 22
type of investigation into that matter. 23
MR. FREIMAN: And just before we 24
break for lunch let me ask you the question that 25
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naturally occurs given our previous discussion. 1
Did you consider whether there was 2
any reason to look at the elements of the offence 3
of negligent performance of a military duty in 4
relation to the allegations that were made in the 5
2010 investigation? 6
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 7
MR. FREIMAN: And I know that it 8
doesn't appear in your PowerPoint but did you come 9
to a conclusion about that potential charge or 10
that potential offence? 11
SGT SHANNON: There is a 12
correlation, you could say, between the standard 13
of meeting the element of the offence under 14
criminal negligence of a marked departure from the 15
normal standard of action and the definitive 16
statement of the term negligent under the National 17
Defence Act. 18
And I believe if you were to 19
review the history of the precedent within the 20
court martial system where they have developed 21
their definition of the term "negligence" and the 22
term negligence under the Criminal Code 23
provisions, I would believe you would find that 24
the court martial has relied heavily on the body 25
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of case law precedent under the Criminal Code in 1
defining their definition of the term negligence 2
under the National Defence Act. 3
So when I was considering the 4
offence and the case law applicable to criminal 5
negligence causing death, I was not able to find 6
one reference in the entire body of case law 7
precedent in any jurisdiction in Canada where that 8
particular offence or that particular idea of 9
negligence had been applied by the courts to be an 10
issue of suicide. 11
So when I was conducting my 12
evaluation and I made those determinations and I 13
was unsuccessful in finding any precedent in the 14
Canadian legal system linking negligence to 15
suicide, I was able to at the same time rule out 16
the need to investigate negligent performance in a 17
military duty. 18
MR. FREIMAN: And just so that I 19
understand, are you saying that your research and 20
your understanding was that the definition of 21
negligence for purposes of negligent performance 22
of military duty was the same as the definition of 23
negligence for purposes of criminal negligence, 24
namely the mental element was a reckless or wanton 25
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disregard? 1
SGT SHANNON: Yes, in the two 2
bodies of law. So the body of law under the 3
Criminal Code and the various jurisdictions across 4
Canada and the body of law that's available in the 5
court martial system, they rely heavily on drawing 6
from decisions made by courts, the Supreme Court 7
and the other courts across Canada so they can 8
incorporate the Canadian body of law into the 9
military law system. 10
So that the same standard is 11
applied when making judgments and rulings against 12
suspects in the military justice system, so that 13
members of the Canadian Forces have to face the 14
same standard and the same required code of 15
conduct as any other citizen in our nation. 16
When you look at the two 17
definitive terms they are almost identical. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. I think this 19
is probably an opportune time for us to take our 20
lunch break. 21
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. 22
We will break until 1:30. 23
--- Upon recessing at 1231 / Suspension à 1231 24
--- Upon resuming at 1334 / Reprise à 1334 25
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MR. FREIMAN: Good afternoon, 1
Sergeant. 2
THE CHAIRPERSON: Just before we 3
start I thought I would just talk about how long 4
we might go. We have the sergeant here tomorrow 5
as well? 6
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 7
THE CHAIRPERSON: If we don't 8
finish today and he is the only witness tomorrow. 9
So depending on timing and 10
depending where everybody is, we'll probably do a 11
normal day of four o'clock-ish unless there is 12
some reason to go earlier or later. 13
MS RICHARDS: I just know that 14
counsel has an issue tomorrow and can't go late 15
tomorrow. 16
THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay. 17
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Today, I'm 18
fine or earlier. That's okay. 19
THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, you have 20
an issue tomorrow just in case, is that it? 21
Okay. So we'll go as far as we 22
can today and then we'll play it by ear. 23
MS RICHARDS: You know, I leave it 24
and Commission counsel -- 25
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THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah. 1
MS RICHARDS: -- I will make no 2
joke about estimating time but I'll leave it to 3
Commission counsel if he can give us an indication 4
maybe in the afternoon where he -- 5
MR. FREIMAN: So let me tell the 6
joke. 7
--- Laughter / Rires 8
MR. FREIMAN: I think that we're 9
probably going to be finished easily within the 10
two days that we have set aside. But as I have 11
said many times before, I'm not your best witness 12
on that, Mr. Chairman. 13
THE CHAIRPERSON: I just wanted to 14
kind of get a feeling so that we had a plan for 15
tomorrow. 16
MR. FREIMAN: I think by the time 17
we come to the afternoon break it should be a 18
little more clear as to whether -- 19
THE CHAIRPERSON: Where we're at? 20
MR. FREIMAN: -- whether we are 21
moving quickly or not so quickly. 22
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you. 23
MR. FREIMAN: And just to reassure 24
everyone it's still coffee, just the container has 25
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changed. 1
THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry for the 2
interruption. Go ahead. 3
EXAMINATION (cont'd) BY 4
MR. FREIMAN: Sergeant Shannon, I 5
just thought I'd close off one issue. We're going 6
to come back to it when we talk about the 7
PowerPoint and other matters related to it. But 8
you've told us a little bit about your views as to 9
the mental element that is important by the 10
concept of either criminal negligence or negligent 11
performance of a military duty. 12
Can you tell us whether you also 13
have a view as to the mental element that's 14
important by conduct to the prejudice of good 15
order and discipline? 16
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. The issue 17
of mens rea or guilt, a guilty mind, on the part 18
of an alleged offender is critical to many 19
offences that exist within our various justice 20
systems. 21
MR. FREIMAN: Isn't it critical to 22
every offence? 23
SGT SHANNON: There are some 24
offences that the issue of mens rea is not a 25
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component of. Most likely in provincial 1
legislation such as speeding tickets those types 2
of offences where mens rea is not an element of 3
those offences. Once it's been established that 4
you have violated the statute it's deemed that 5
there is no defence. 6
MR. FREIMAN: I take issue with 7
that, but it's not relevant for today's 8
proceedings. 9
SGT SHANNON: In most federal 10
statutes the Criminal Code and the various 11
offences under the National Offence Act, the issue 12
of mens rea is it has to be specified in the 13
wording of the statute. 14
So for these two investigations 15
that element is clearly identified in the written 16
statute for both 124: 17
"Negligent performance of a 18
military duty." 19
And section 129: 20
"Conduct or neglect to the 21
prejudice of good order and 22
discipline." 23
So because it becomes an element 24
of the offence it must be examined and evidence 25
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must be obtained to establish the frame of mind of 1
the alleged offender. 2
MR. FREIMAN: But what is that 3
frame of mind? 4
SGT SHANNON: It is the requisite 5
guilty intent or the deliberate conduct of an 6
individual that's alleged to have committed either 7
one of those offences. 8
MR. FREIMAN: Let's get to it when 9
we talk about the PowerPoint. It probably makes 10
more sense at that point. 11
I noticed though, sir, that you 12
have considerable facility in terms of discussing 13
things of a legal nature. Do you have any legal 14
training? 15
SGT SHANNON: My training comes 16
from a combination of my formal education at the 17
college level, at the bachelor degree level, and 18
at the master degree level. And I also have 19
substantive training that's available to all 20
police officers in the examination and the 21
understanding of the law. 22
MR. FREIMAN: And setting aside 23
for a moment the 2010 investigation, am I to 24
conclude that your legal training both practical 25
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and formal, you consider that to be sufficient for 1
you to be able to draw conclusions with respect to 2
the 2009 investigation without needing outside 3
assistance? 4
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 5
MR. FREIMAN: Thank you. 6
I'd like to talk a little bit 7
about your thought process with respect to the 8
investigation of the 2009 offence. 9
Can you tell me in layman's terms 10
what you understood the complaint to be that was 11
being lodged by Mr. and Mrs. Fynes in the 2009 12
investigation? 13
SGT SHANNON: So for the 2009 14
investigation there were two critical allegations 15
that were made; first, by the DND Ombudsman 16
investigator, Mr. Martel, as the third party 17
complainant who was forwarding the information 18
that he had received from Mr. and Mrs. Fynes. 19
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 20
SGT SHANNON: The second 21
complainant of that investigation was in fact Mr. 22
and Mrs. Fynes. 23
The two allegations that were of 24
substance and that were tasked to me to 25
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investigate was the issue that the chain of 1
command of the Lord Strathcona's Horse were 2
negligent when they appointed Ms Hamilton-Tree, 3
now Mrs. Starr, as the next of kin to Corporal 4
Langridge without substantive documentation 5
supporting their decision. That was Allegation 6
No. 1. 7
Allegation No. 2 was that a member 8
of the Canadian Forces legal branch, specifically 9
Lieutenant-Colonel King, was negligent because he 10
used a repealed policy in publishing a legal 11
opinion that Corporal Langridge was in a 12
common-law relationship at the time of his death. 13
MR. FREIMAN: You were able, as I 14
understand it, to dismiss the relevance of the 15
second complaint relatively quickly, is that 16
correct? 17
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Tell me how and why. 19
SGT SHANNON: Upon being assigned 20
the investigation I did my initial assessment and 21
I determined that I would focus on the allegation 22
against Lieutenant-Colonel King because it was 23
much smaller and easier to focus on at the 24
beginning. 25
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So I was able to rapidly determine 1
that the allegation was unfounded because the 2
Canadian Forces Administrative Order referred to 3
by Lieutenant-Colonel King was indeed still in 4
force and effect when Lieutenant-Colonel King 5
wrote his decision. 6
Therefore, the allegation made 7
against him by both the third party complainant 8
and by Mr. and Mrs. Fynes was unfounded. 9
MR. FREIMAN: In fact, help me 10
because I'm not sure that I have ever understood 11
it. What did you understand the nature of the 12
complaint to be with respect to a letter that was 13
issued sometime in 2009? 14
SGT SHANNON: The allegation that 15
was made by Mr. Martel and by Mr. and Mrs. Fynes 16
was that in a specific legal opinion produced and 17
generated by Lieutenant-Colonel King regarding the 18
marital status of Corporal Langridge at the time 19
of his death, that Lieutenant-Colonel King 20
referred to the CFAO related to common-law 21
relationships in his opinion and he used that 22
administrative order to substantiate his legal 23
opinion. 24
So their argument was that because 25
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the Lieutenant-Colonel used a policy that was no 1
longer in force and effect that he was negligent 2
because he was not performing his duties in an 3
appropriate manner. 4
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. I'd like to 5
turn to some reports of administrative activity 6
that you performed. It'll be in the 2009 GO file 7
starting at page 1,038. 8
THE CHAIRPERSON: What year? 9
MR. FREIMAN: 2009. 2010 doesn't 10
go anywhere near as high in pages. 11
--- Pause 12
MR. FREIMAN: The next couple of 13
entries starting at 1,038 record what you did upon 14
acceptance of a file. 15
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 16
MR. FREIMAN: So the first one 17
which is dated Friday, 24 September it states -- 18
oh, I'm sorry, it's a related date. 19
I'm not sure. What does a related 20
date mean? 21
SGT SHANNON: In normal 22
circumstances the date that says related is the 23
time that the activity in question that is the 24
subject of the text box has occurred. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: Okay. It's not the 1
time that the text box is composed, is it? 2
SGT SHANNON: It is the time. 3
MR. FREIMAN: It is the time? 4
SGT SHANNON: Yes. 5
MR. FREIMAN: Well, because in it 6
you say: 7
"Between 1400 hours 07 8
September and 1500 hours 27 9
September '10, Sergeant 10
Shannon completed a 11
comprehensive review of all 12
material contained in his 13
file to date and accepted 14
investigative responsibility 15
for this file." 16
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 17
That would be a typo in that. So it should read 18
1500 hours on the 24th of September. 19
MR. FREIMAN: Right. Well, it 20
could also mean that it was altered afterwards, 21
modified to correspond to further activity that 22
you did. 23
SGT SHANNON: There would be a 24
reference in the software that if this text box 25
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was changed after the fact. 1
MR. FREIMAN: We have had occasion 2
to try to understand that. 3
SGT SHANNON: And I would -- just 4
to clarify that? 5
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 6
SGT SHANNON: So if you were to go 7
by -- the 24th is a Friday so the 27th would be a 8
Sunday which I would not be working. So that 9
should be -- 10
MR. FREIMAN: Well, if the 24th is 11
a Friday the 27th is a Monday. 12
SGT SHANNON: But when I wrote 13
this that should have read I finished that work on 14
the 24th. 15
MR. FREIMAN: All right, that's 16
fine. I don't think anything at all turns on the 17
date. 18
At the next page, 1,039, you 19
record on the 4th of October: 20
"0800 hours, October 4th, 21
Sergeant Shannon completed a 22
full review of the 23
information contained in the 24
unit summary investigation 25
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report." 1
SGT SHANNON: That's correct. 2
MR. FREIMAN: Now, was that in 3
addition to all the material contained in the 4
file? 5
SGT SHANNON: Yes, so this was a 6
two-stage activity. So based on former 7
recommendations of this Commission there is 8
existing standards for doing a file handover. 9
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 10
SGT SHANNON: So I'm required when 11
I take over a file, I have to review everything 12
that currently exists in that file. 13
So I have to review all material, 14
every text box, every attached item that's been 15
scanned and attached to the file, all available 16
interviews, audio-recordings, videotapes, all 17
material, every text box, every attached item 18
that's been scanned and attached to the file, all 19
available interviews, audio recordings, 20
videotapes. 21
So I'm required to review 22
everything. So due to the volume of the 23
information that was already on this file when I 24
took over in September of 2010. 25
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So I would guess there was 1
approximately 1,000 pages of documentation already 2
on file, plus the audiotapes. So it took me that 3
much time to review everything that was already on 4
the file. 5
When I took over the file there 6
were components of the summary investigation 7
already attached as images that had been obtained 8
from an unknown source by Sergeant Mitchell and it 9
was already a component of the file. 10
The entire summary investigation 11
was not there. 12
So because a portion of the 13
summary investigation was already part of the 14
investigation file I took steps to obtain the 15
original version of the summary investigation from 16
Land Forces (Western Area) Headquarters. And upon 17
receipt of those four binders and hundreds of more 18
pages of documentation, so then it's in here, the 19
exact date that I received the Summary 20
Investigation Report. 21
And so it took me from the date of 22
receipt until the 4th of October to review that 23
material. 24
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 25
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Just on the issue to date, you 1
said you reviewed -- in fact you were required to 2
review everything that was in the file -- 3
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 4
MR. FREIMAN: -- when you accepted 5
the file. 6
Now, with respect to the 7
interviews conducted with Mr. and Mrs. Fynes, did 8
you read the summary, the written summary of those 9
interviews, the interview report, or did you watch 10
the tapes or both? 11
SGT SHANNON: I read the summary 12
of the report and I read the officer notes of 13
Sergeant Mitchell. I did not review the 14
audio-recording of the tape. 15
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 16
So just before we look at some of 17
these materials there is a couple of other reports 18
of administrative activity that I'd like to 19
discuss with you. The first one is at page 1040 20
just over the page. It records on the 15th of 21
October, a Friday: 22
"At 0900 hours, 15 October 23
'10, Sergeant Shannon 24
completed a review of all 25
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material obtained in the Unit 1
Summary Investigation Report 2
regarding actions of the LdSH 3
following the death of 4
Corporal Langridge." 5
From this review you identified a 6
number of relevant documents. 7
We may come back to that report in 8
due course, but I just want to understand the 9
difference between what you're recording here and 10
what you recorded about the full review of the 11
information contained in the Unit Summary 12
Investigation Report when, 10 days later or 11 13
days later, you're reporting that you completed a 14
review of all material contained in the Unit 15
Summary Investigation Report. 16
SGT SHANNON: So on the 4th of 17
October I completed reading everything as a 18
general overview of the content of the Summary 19
Investigation Report. And that review process was 20
academic-related reading, comprehending and 21
understanding. 22
So from the 4th until the 15th I 23
then began identifying and determining what 24
policies and what procedures defined the military 25
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regulations, the orders and the customs of the 1
Canadian Forces that related to this subject 2
matter allegation so that I could begin the 3
process of determining if the element of the 4
offence of negligent performance of a military 5
duty was present. 6
MR. FREIMAN: All right. So I'm 7
probably going to take you through a similar 8
exercise and get a similar answer with respect to 9
a document about an investigative activity that 10
you'll find at page 224. 11
--- Pause 12
SGT SHANNON: So the document at 13
page 224 that is the investigation assessment that 14
I completed. 15
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. And for 16
present purposes I just want to look with you at 17
paragraphs 4 and 5 in order to understand what is 18
contained or what is meant in both instances. 19
Paragraph 4 you say: 20
"Between 17 September '10 and 21
15 October '10 Sergeant 22
Shannon conducted a formal 23
review of all relevant 24
Canadian Forces' policies, 25
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regulations, documents that 1
pertain to the subject matter 2
of this investigation." 3
And you identify up to the 4
letter T -- 5
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 6
MR. FREIMAN: -- worth of forms 7
and documents. 8
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 9
MR. FREIMAN: Then at 5 you say: 10
"On 1 November '10 Sergeant 11
Shannon completed a review of 12
the CF orders and regulations 13
noted in paragraph 5 above. 14
Based on his review Sergeant 15
Shannon identified the 16
following pertinent 17
information that is relevant 18
to this investigation..." 19
Can you tell me the connection 20
between 4 and 5? 21
SGT SHANNON: So paragraph 4 22
outlines all the relevant information that I 23
identify as I reviewed the existing information in 24
the occurrence file for 2009 and the summary 25
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investigation that was commenced by the unit and 1
my own personal research and examination of 2
existing Canadian Forces regulations and orders. 3
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 4
SGT SHANNON: So this paragraph 4 5
condenses the thousands of pages of information 6
that's available for this topic and I condensed 7
what I determined to be the relevant material that 8
existed in the record at that time. 9
Then, in paragraph 5, I identified 10
which one of the issues or which of those 11
documents related to the second element of the 12
offence for negligent performance of a military 13
duty, which is that: 14
"An individual must have a 15
duty imposed by regulation, 16
order or custom of the 17
Canadian Forces." 18
So here in paragraph 5 I have 19
identified the regulations, orders and customs of 20
the Canadian Forces that impose a duty on a member 21
of the Canadian Forces as it relates to the 22
allegation of negligent performance of a military 23
duty. 24
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 25
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Now, we'll come back to this 1
document and to the investigation plan in just a 2
minute. But if I understood your testimony this 3
morning correctly, you told us that on your review 4
of the investigation plan -- well, having first 5
read the file -- 6
SGT SHANNON: Yes. 7
MR. FREIMAN: -- you then reviewed 8
the investigation plan and came to a conclusion 9
that a different direction should be taken -- 10
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 11
MR. FREIMAN: -- from the one. 12
Now, if I understood Sergeant 13
Mitchell's investigation plan -- and we can look 14
at it at page 284, if you like -- it comes down to 15
identifying who may have committed the act 16
complained of, whether it involved any duty and 17
then whether the act complained of was a breach of 18
that duty. 19
SGT SHANNON: Correct. 20
MR. FREIMAN: What's wrong with 21
that as an investigation plan? 22
SGT SHANNON: That's his 23
investigation plan. 24
MR. FREIMAN: What's wrong with 25
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that in terms of investigating the complaint 1
before us? 2
SGT SHANNON: There is nothing 3
wrong with the approach that was taken by Sergeant 4
Mitchell. 5
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 6
So what was it that you decided to 7
change? 8
SGT SHANNON: If you look at my 9
investigation plan, sir -- 10
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 11
SGT SHANNON: -- which is, I 12
believe, page 286. 13
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 14
SGT SHANNON: So you'll notice 15
there are many similarities between the 16
investigative plan prepared by Sergeant Mitchell 17
and the initial investigation plan prepared by 18
myself. 19
So the first phase of the -- the 20
first stage of the investigation plan is based on 21
my initial review of the investigation complaint 22
which is on the file and I created my initial 23
investigation plan at that time. 24
Following the creation of the 25
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initial investigation plan, I proceeded to review 1
all the information that was on the file, all the 2
information that was contained in the unit summary 3
investigation and I conducted my own additional 4
research of existing military policies and 5
regulations. Then, at that time, I prepared the 6
investigation assessment which we just reviewed. 7
So the investigation assessment is 8
a tool that I have learned how to use over time 9
during my experience. It's not defined by policy 10
and it takes very complex matters and it condenses 11
and collates all the relevant information that I 12
deem is going to be important to move my 13
investigation forward. 14
That is the sole purpose of the 15
investigation assessment. It brings all the key 16
facts together into one key document and all the 17
peripheral information that I determined was not 18
relevant to my investigation moving forward is put 19
aside and I'm allowed to focus my work based on 20
the determination of the facts that I believe are 21
important and then I move forward. 22
So then when you look at the 23
second phase of my invest plan -- so at the very 24
top of page 288 there is a Revised Investigation 25
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Plan. 1
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 2
SGT SHANNON: And if you look at 3
the Revised Investigation Plan it is a correlation 4
to the Investigation Assessment, Final Stage, 5
where I have identified the issues that require 6
further investigation by the NIS. 7
So there is a causal link between 8
the investigation assessment and the investigation 9
plan. 10
MR. FREIMAN: Now, if I understand 11
correctly, though, where Sergeant Mitchell had 12
formed the conclusion that it was important to 13
interview a number of witnesses, people who had 14
taken part in the events that formed the backdrop 15
of the complaint, you decided you didn't need any 16
additional facts other than the ones that you 17
already were in possession of. 18
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 19
MR. FREIMAN: And do I understand 20
that those facts came from the SI? 21
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 22
MR. FREIMAN: Where do they come 23
from? 24
SGT SHANNON: They came from 25
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Orders, Regulations and customs of the Canadian 1
Forces which play a key role in the determination 2
of this issue. 3
MR. FREIMAN: But the question 4
that I have is where did you get your information 5
about who did what and why? 6
SGT SHANNON: The information that 7
I used is a matter of public record because the 8
key factors that determine the outcome of this 9
investigation are based on documents and not what 10
people did. 11
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 12
There's a document, and you 13
identify it in your investigation plan, authored 14
by the Commanding Officer, Lieutenant -- or now 15
Colonel Demers -- 16
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 17
MR. FREIMAN: -- where he says, 18
based on the documentation it appears that Rebecca 19
is the next of kin and we have to do what she 20
tells us, something close to that or we have to 21
obey her wishes. Are you familiar with that 22
document? 23
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. That's an 24
email. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: It's an email? 1
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 2
MR. FREIMAN: In your view, it 3
wasn't important to discover what led Colonel 4
Demers to that conclusion? 5
SGT SHANNON: His email was very 6
clear on how he reached that conclusion. His 7
email stated that a review of the applicable 8
documents on the personal file of Corporal 9
Langridge led him to the understanding that 10
Corporal Langridge was in a valid common-law 11
relationship with Miss Hamilton-Tree on the 15th 12
of March 2008. 13
MR. FREIMAN: What does that have 14
to do with whether she was next of kin? 15
SGT SHANNON: Based on the customs 16
of our society the spouse is the next of kin to 17
any individual who has passed away. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Can you show me 19
where I can find that reference? 20
SGT SHANNON: Based on my research 21
of all available bodies of law there is no 22
conclusive one-page document that the Government 23
of Canada or any province has come up with a bona 24
fide list or set of rules that defines next of 25
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kin. 1
So the determination of next of 2
kin falls within the body of civil law and also 3
has some relation to the common law, but in the 4
majority of all situations -- 5
MR. FREIMAN: Wait a minute. 6
You're talking about civil law and common law. 7
When you talk about civil law, are you talking 8
about the law of Quebec? 9
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. The law 10
of -- the civil law -- 11
MR. FREIMAN: All right. Civilian 12
law as opposed to military law? 13
SGT SHANNON: No, no. Civil law 14
as in the civilian -- civil like small claims 15
court, the law of torts. 16
So civil law and there is some 17
references in common law, but in almost all 18
circumstances from the most of my research that I 19
was able to determine there is no definitive rule 20
or process in defining next of kin. 21
It relies heavily on the customs 22
of our society and our customs of our society is 23
that the spouse of an individual is the person 24
that should make any decisions or take 25
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responsibility for people. 1
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. I'm going to 2
ask you a minor question and a major question. 3
The minor question is you 4
differentiated between civil law and common law; 5
can you explain what you mean by the difference of 6
those two? 7
SGT SHANNON: Common law is the -- 8
was the original form of law that existed in the 9
United Kingdom and became the foundation for most 10
bodies of law in Canada. 11
MR. FREIMAN: And civil law? 12
SGT SHANNON: Common law has a 13
relationship to both the civil law and the 14
criminal law. So the common law is basically the 15
law of precedent. It does have some interaction 16
in both bodies of law. 17
MR. FREIMAN: I was always under 18
the impression that the Criminal Code displaced 19
the common law of crimes. 20
SGT SHANNON: It did but it is the 21
foundation of our system. 22
MR. FREIMAN: All right. So let 23
me ask you the major premise. 24
You've given us a conclusory 25
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statement about the custom of our society and the 1
role of the spouse in that custom of our society. 2
I've asked you and I'm going to 3
ask you again: Other than your own subjective 4
view on this, what's the basis for that statement? 5
SGT SHANNON: As I already stated, 6
I conducted a review and an analysis of the 7
available legal issues related to the 8
determination of next of kin and I was not able to 9
find any conclusive statement of law that says 10
this is how you will determine who next of kin is. 11
It relies heavily on the customs of our society. 12
MR. FREIMAN: Yeah, but where do 13
you find the customs of our society? What is the 14
source that you relied on for your understanding 15
of the custom of our society? 16
SGT SHANNON: I believe if I was 17
to speculate that is the reason why there is no 18
conclusive body of law that says this is how you 19
will determine who next of kin is, because the 20
customs of my society can vary from the customs of 21
a city in a different province. 22
So for the legislatures or the 23
Parliament of a nation to come out and say this is 24
how things will happen, it's not practical or 25
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reasonable. So the Parliament and the 1
legislatures of provinces have not come up with a 2
conclusive manner for defining that. They rely on 3
the customs of society. 4
MR. FREIMAN: And where do I 5
find -- if I wanted to do my own research and to 6
know what is the custom of our society with 7
respect to who is next of kin, where would I look 8
other than asking myself, well, what do I think? 9
SGT SHANNON: I just stated that 10
based on my research, so my primary point -- 11
MR. FREIMAN: Just a second. The 12
research that you told us about, I think, was that 13
you were unable to find -- 14
SGT SHANNON: Yes. 15
MR. FREIMAN: -- a statement? 16
SGT SHANNON: Yes. 17
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. Well, that 18
tells us that there is no external source -- 19
SGT SHANNON: Correct. 20
MR. FREIMAN: -- that you were 21
able to find. 22
SGT SHANNON: Yes. 23
MR. FREIMAN: So what non-external 24
source did you rely on -- 25
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SGT SHANNON: My own -- 1
MR. FREIMAN: -- to draw your 2
conclusions? 3
SGT SHANNON: My own understanding 4
of the customs of our society. The spouse is the 5
person that is the person that you would turn to 6
in situations where a member of somebody's family 7
is in difficulty or requires assistance. That is 8
just the way -- how our society works. 9
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. In your view, 10
is that an adequate basis upon which to found a 11
legal assessment? 12
SGT SHANNON: I believe so, yes, 13
sir. 14
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So let's have 15
a look at just some nuts and bolts about the 16
complaint itself. 17
You're familiar with the fact -- 18
and I think you've referred to it -- that there 19
were a number of interviews that were conducted 20
between Major Dandurand and one interview Master 21
Seaman McLaughlin and two subsequent interviews 22
Sergeant, or Master Corporal as he then was, 23
Mitchell? 24
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: And you've told me 1
that you reviewed those documents? 2
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 3
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. Let me just 4
establish then a baseline. 5
In your view, what was the status 6
of statements made by Major Dandurand to the 7
complainants during the course of these 8
interviews? 9
SGT SHANNON: I don't understand 10
your question. 11
MR. FREIMAN: If Major Dandurand 12
made a statement about the intentions of the NIS 13
with respect to either the 2009 or the 2010 14
investigation, did you consider those statements 15
to be binding on you or was your investigation 16
independent of any assurances or representations? 17
SGT SHANNON: My investigation was 18
independent, sir. 19
MR. FREIMAN: All right. So it 20
isn't necessarily the case that if Major Dandurand 21
says something will happen that it was incumbent 22
upon you to see that it happened? 23
SGT SHANNON: I received no direct 24
instructions from Major Dandurand. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: But you did read the 1
notes and I think you told me you didn't listen to 2
the tapes, right, you just read the notes? 3
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir, 4
and the summary of the interviews. 5
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 6
I would like to start with Tab 13. 7
And just give me one second. 8
--- Pause 9
SGT SHANNON: In Volume 2, sir? 10
MR. FREIMAN: I believe it is in 11
Volume 2. 12
First I have to do some 13
archaeology here. 14
--- Pause 15
MR. FREIMAN: Tab 13, if we can 16
turn up page 17. 17
--- Pause 18
MR. FREIMAN: And I have to 19
confess I'm not sure whether this part of the 20
interview made it into anyone's notes or wasn't 21
recorded in the notes. 22
But here's an interchange -- we'll 23
start at the bottom of page 16. Mrs. Fynes it 24
talking to Major Dandurand. 25
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Mrs. Fynes says: 1
"Please understand I don't 2
understand the summary 3
investigation. I guess I'd 4
like to know what your 5
parameters of this, what are 6
you investigating. 7
MAJ DANDURAND: With the 8
primary next of kin? 9
MRS. FYNES: What's your 10
investigation? 11
MCPL MITCHELL: The specific 12
part? 13
MR. FYNES: The scope of it. 14
MAJ DANDURAND: The specific 15
scope is the primary next of 16
kin decision when -- okay, 17
but that's done, right? 18
MCPL MITCHELL: Hang on a 19
sec. Let me explain. What 20
I'm looking at right now is 21
when that decision was made, 22
who made that decision, who 23
was involved in that decision 24
and what was --" 25
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Mrs. Fynes says: 1
"The ramifications of it 2
being --" 3
"No, no," Master Corporal 4
Mitchell says, "not the 5
ramifications because we 6
don't know what the 7
ramifications are. I already 8
know that, yeah. What 9
information was that decision 10
based on, okay?" 11
So here's a statement that was 12
made in May of 2010 about the scope of the 13
investigation. Does it correspond to your 14
understanding of the scope of the investigation 15
you were conducting? 16
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 17
MR. FREIMAN: All right. And so 18
when Master Corporal Mitchell says that "What I'm 19
looking at right now is when that decision was 20
made, who made that decision, who was involved in 21
that decision and what was --," what information 22
was that decision based on -- 23
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 24
MR. FREIMAN: -- you didn't 25
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investigate any of those things? 1
SGT SHANNON: Yes, I did, sir. 2
MR. FREIMAN: You did. All right. 3
So who made the decision? 4
SGT SHANNON: Who made which 5
decision? 6
MR. FREIMAN: It says: "What I'm 7
looking at right now is when that decision was 8
made" -- and this is the next of kin decision. 9
SGT SHANNON: Yes. 10
MR. FREIMAN: We've established 11
that Major Dandurand is talking about the specific 12
scope of the primary next of kin decision. 13
In the first -- Master Corporal 14
Mitchell says: "What I'm looking at right now is 15
when that decision was made..." 16
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 17
MR. FREIMAN: Did you draw a 18
conclusion as to when the decision was made? 19
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 20
MR. FREIMAN: When was it made? 21
SGT SHANNON: The decision was 22
made the day Corporal Langridge entered into a 23
common-law relationship with Miss Hamilton-Tree. 24
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. I want to 25
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understand that. I've seen that in a number of 1
other documents. 2
Are you saying that the military 3
had no role in putting Miss Hamilton-Tree into a 4
position where she could exercise the duties, the 5
privileges, the responsibilities associated with 6
next of kin? 7
SGT SHANNON: Corporal Langridge 8
did, sir, when he entered into a common-law 9
relationship with her. 10
MR. FREIMAN: That's not what -- 11
SGT SHANNON: So on the 17th of 12
March 2008 at the casualty coordination meeting 13
the people that attended that meeting conducted a 14
thorough review of the personal administration 15
file of Corporal Langridge, identified the 16
relevant documents, identified the fact that he 17
was indeed in a valid common-law relationship with 18
Miss Hamilton-Tree. 19
As I've already stated, based on 20
the customs of our society, that makes Miss 21
Hamilton-Tree the spouse of Corporal Langridge. 22
As the spouse she then becomes the person that any 23
individual would turn to for those types of 24
matters. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: All right. I want 1
to repeat my question, and let me give you a 2
hypothetical which I know you don't accept, but 3
let us assume that the Fynes are right and 4
somewhere along the line a mistake was made and 5
Miss Hamilton-Tree was for some legal reason -- we 6
don't have to talk about it yet -- but for some 7
legal reason she was not the person who was 8
entitled to exercise the functions associated with 9
making decisions about the funeral and about the 10
disposition of the body and about burial. 11
Okay that far? 12
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 13
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So in those 14
circumstances, would it not be appropriate to say 15
that at some point in time the military made a 16
decision that she was appropriate, that she was 17
the person to make these decisions? 18
SGT SHANNON: Again, based on my 19
understanding of our society, the customs of our 20
society, the relationships that people enter into 21
given how our society is structured, if I was to 22
be put into the same place I would turn to 23
someone's spouse for all of these issues. 24
MR. FREIMAN: I understand that 25
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but I'm asking you to suspend your disbelief for a 1
minute and agree to a hypothetical in which that's 2
wrong. 3
For a reason that we don't need to 4
talk about now, just assume that it's wrong that 5
Miss Hamilton-Tree ought to have been making the 6
decisions that she was making. Wouldn't the 7
question be who put her into that position? 8
SGT SHANNON: Our society did, 9
sir. Who else would anybody have turned to in 10
this case -- 11
MR. FREIMAN: Well -- 12
SGT SHANNON: -- other than 13
someone's spouse? That's who -- that's who I 14
would naturally turn to. I'm sure if it was your 15
situation and you had, say, a family friend and 16
something happened to your friend the first person 17
you would turn to is his spouse. 18
MR. FREIMAN: I understand that 19
that's your conclusion and we will look at some of 20
the statutory and other material that has a 21
bearing on that conclusion. All I'm asking is for 22
you to suspend that belief. 23
SGT SHANNON: I just don't think 24
that's an appropriate thing to suspend given the 25
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realities of our society. 1
MR. FREIMAN: All right. So from 2
your point of view it's meaningless to talk about 3
any given time or place where the military may 4
have made a decision -- 5
SGT SHANNON: The military didn't 6
make a decision, sir. The military supported the 7
wishes of Corporal Langridge and that his last 8
wishes were that he was in a common-law 9
relationship with Miss Hamilton-Tree. 10
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 11
SGT SHANNON: Those are his 12
publicly stated wishes that is on the 13
administrative file with the Canadian Forces. 14
There is no other formal written document to 15
contest his wishes. 16
MR. FREIMAN: Again, I understand 17
that you have come to those conclusions and you 18
hold them very strongly and cannot imagine a 19
circumstance under which that would not be an 20
appropriate decision. 21
What I'm suggesting to you though, 22
sir, is that there are certain actions that the 23
Canadian Forces engaged in. 24
First of all, is it not the case 25
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that there was some question within the chain of 1
command as to who should be given the right to 2
make decisions as between the parents listed on 3
the PEN form -- and I know you're going to tell me 4
that the PEN form has no legal bearing but people 5
had -- 6
SGT SHANNON: Yes. 7
MR. FREIMAN: -- had this idea 8
that -- 9
SGT SHANNON: And that is a major 10
unfortunate portion of this case because there 11
were certain individuals within the chain of 12
command of the Canadian Forces and including 13
within my own chain of command within the National 14
Investigation Service, specifically Sergeant 15
Mitchell and Major Dandurand and Warrant Officer 16
Bonneteau, they also had the same misperception of 17
the purpose of the PEN form. 18
So people did not have a clear 19
understanding of the purpose of the PEN form and 20
they based their decisions and their actions based 21
on that misunderstanding. 22
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So let's just 23
look at what's happening in light of that 24
misunderstanding. 25
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It is the case that at some point 1
somebody had to make a decision. Whether it was 2
the right decision or the wrong decision or it was 3
the only logical decision or it was not a logical 4
decision, they had to make decision in the contest 5
between the parents and Miss Hamilton-Tree as to 6
who should be given the authority to take the 7
decisions about the funeral and the disposition of 8
the body? 9
SGT SHANNON: Yes. So there's two 10
people involved. There's only two people 11
involved. Between 15 March 2008 and the date of 12
his funeral -- 13
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 14
SGT SHANNON: -- there's only two 15
people involved that have any legal ramifications 16
or legal say in the matter of the steps that were 17
taken between those two dates. 18
MR. FREIMAN: And who are they? 19
SGT SHANNON: So the first person 20
is the spouse, Miss Hamilton-Tree. The second 21
person is Mr. Wight, the executor of the estate. 22
MR. FREIMAN: All right. So let's 23
assume that there was a decision to be made about 24
Mr. Wight, although his name didn't appear at any 25
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point, isn't it accurate to say -- 1
SGT SHANNON: His name does appear 2
as the executor of the estate on the valid will on 3
the file of Corporal Langridge. 4
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. But just bear 5
with me in my non-comprehension for a moment. 6
Isn't it a decision point when 7
someone tells Captain Lubiniecki, as he then was, 8
to contact Major Parkinson and to tell Major 9
Parkinson the parents are not going to have the 10
right to direct the funeral? 11
SGT SHANNON: I don't believe the 12
document states that that's what was the message 13
that was passed here. The document says: Please 14
inform Mr. and Mrs. Fynes that Miss Hamilton-Tree 15
is the next of kin. It doesn't say anything about 16
them giving direction to Major Parkinson about 17
what Mr. and Mrs. Fynes can and cannot do. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. That they're 19
the primary next of kin. 20
All right. In your review of the 21
customs of our society, did you find any 22
definition of primary next of kin that is -- 23
SGT SHANNON: There is no such 24
thing in any other body of law as primary next of 25
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kin and secondary next of kin except in the 1
Canadian Forces Administrative Order related to 2
the PEN form. 3
Unfortunately, when that PEN form 4
was first drafted and introduced into the Orders 5
of the Canadian Forces they elected to use those 6
two terms, but as we know, the purpose of that 7
form is for notification purposes only. 8
I was not able to identify in any 9
other legal reference the term "primary next of 10
kin" and "secondary next of kin." 11
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. Well, would 12
you not agree with me that no matter how you 13
define next of kin that next of kin is more than 14
just one person, it includes an array of people? 15
SGT SHANNON: It depends on how 16
you define family. 17
So going back to my argument about 18
it's defined by the customs of our society, so if 19
your society is primarily Anglo-Saxon Catholic and 20
Christian it's very well defined. You have your 21
spouse, your parents, brothers, sisters, 22
stepsisters, stepbrothers, et cetera, et cetera. 23
In-laws extend your family. 24
In some other cultures that exist 25
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in our nation now, they might have a different 1
relationship or a different idea of defining 2
family structure and next of kin. For instance, 3
in some societies that exist in Canada a next of 4
kin can only be a male. A female cannot be next 5
of kin. 6
So it depends on how the community 7
of a specific individual identifies the issues of 8
family and heirs. 9
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 10
Regardless of whether you are talking about a 11
white Anglo-Saxon Catholic Christian community or 12
some other community, are we agreed that next of 13
kin comprises more than one individual? 14
SGT SHANNON: It can, sir, yes. I 15
agree with that. 16
MR. FREIMAN: All right. And 17
isn't it the case that when one talks about 18
primary next of kin what one is trying to do is to 19
decide who amongst this large number -- or this 20
variety of relations and family members has 21
precedence. 22
SGT SHANNON: And my answer to 23
that, sir, in all cases in 99 percent of societies 24
within Canada the answer to that question would be 25
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the spouse. 1
MR. FREIMAN: All right. I don't 2
think I'm going to get much further with this, but 3
I'm going to take one last shot at it. 4
At some point Ms Hamilton-Tree was 5
sent to the funeral home -- 6
SGT SHANNON: Yes. 7
MR. FREIMAN: -- to make 8
arrangements for Stuart's burial. 9
SGT SHANNON: That's correct. 10
MR. FREIMAN: She went because the 11
Canadian Forces sent her. 12
SGT SHANNON: That's incorrect, 13
sir. She went because it was her responsibility 14
as the spouse. 15
MR. FREIMAN: Who informed her of 16
that responsibility if not the Canadian Forces? 17
SGT SHANNON: I couldn't answer 18
that question, sir, but there is no record that 19
she was sent there by the Canadian Forces. 20
MR. FREIMAN: Well, we have 21
heard -- 22
SGT SHANNON: But it would be a 23
natural inference on anybody dealing with that 24
type of situation that "I have to plan somebody's 25
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funeral so the first place I'm going to go is to 1
the funeral home." 2
MR. FREIMAN: Well, we have 3
heard -- 4
SGT SHANNON: But I do not believe 5
you will ever find a conclusive record that says 6
somebody in the Canadian Forces instructed her to 7
go there. I am sure that in communications with 8
her Assisting Officer that topic did come up, 9
inquiries were made and decisions were made that 10
"I need to go there". 11
MR. FREIMAN: You're sure of this, 12
but you never verified it by actually asking the 13
people who could answer the question. 14
SGT SHANNON: It's not relevant to 15
my investigation, sir. 16
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So I want 17
again just to be sure, in fairness, that I 18
understand what you're saying. 19
What you're saying is, in your 20
view it was not relevant whether anyone sent Ms 21
Hamilton-Tree to the funeral parlour? 22
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 23
MR. FREIMAN: And is it also not 24
relevant whether any member of the Canadian Forces 25
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made representations about Ms Hamilton-Tree's 1
status? 2
SGT SHANNON: At the funeral home? 3
MR. FREIMAN: At the funeral home. 4
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 5
MR. FREIMAN: And why is that not 6
relevant? 7
SGT SHANNON: Regarding the issue 8
of what occurred at the funeral home I will make a 9
number of points that may be of assistance to you. 10
MR. FREIMAN: Please. 11
SGT SHANNON: So number one, I 12
have no jurisdiction to investigate Ms 13
Hamilton-Tree. She is a civilian, she is not 14
subject to the Code of Service Discipline, and I 15
also do not have territorial jurisdiction to look 16
into the matter that occurred at the funeral home 17
because it occurred in the primary policing 18
jurisdiction of the Edmonton Police Serve. 19
Number two, by the time the 20
allegation was presented to the Military Police by 21
Major Parkinson the statute of limitations of the 22
provincial law regarding that matter had already 23
expired, therefore no police investigation could 24
take place in that matter. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: But your -- 1
SGT SHANNON: Second -- thirdly -- 2
MR. FREIMAN: Go ahead. 3
SGT SHANNON: -- the actions of 4
the two individuals of the Canadian Forces also 5
would not constitute an offence under the National 6
Defence Act because there is no direct 7
relationship between their actions there and the 8
operational effectiveness of the Canadian Forces. 9
To lay a charge under the National 10
Defence Act there has to be a direct causal 11
relationship between the actions of a member of 12
the Canadian Forces and the effective operations 13
of the Canadian Forces. 14
MR. FREIMAN: All right. You are 15
about 12 light years ahead of me. 16
What I wanted to talk about was 17
whether if it were the case that the military sent 18
Ms Hamilton-Tree to the funeral parlour, if it 19
were the case that the military made certain 20
representations about Ms Hamilton-Tree's status -- 21
and again, I know that you can't fathom this 22
idea -- and if it were for some reason to be 23
determined that those were wrong -- forget about 24
charging Ms Hamilton-Tree, which you said you 25
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can't do, forget about charging Captain -- sorry, 1
at the time Second Lieutenant Brown or Corporal 2
Rohmer, which you have told us you can't do -- 3
wouldn't that constitute a decision on the part of 4
the Canadian Forces about Ms Hamilton-Tree's 5
status, which if that decision were wrong, would 6
locate where that decision happened? 7
SGT SHANNON: Hindsight is 8
hindsight and 20:20 all those common sayings, sir, 9
but if you assess the information that was 10
available to the chain of command of the Lord 11
Strathcona Horse at the time between 15 March and 12
the date of burial of Corporal Langridge, they did 13
not have any information that would lead any 14
rational, reasonable person to believe Corporal 15
Langridge had made the decision to enter into a 16
common-law relationship with Ms Hamilton-Tree. 17
Those are the facts. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 19
SGT SHANNON: That is the 20
information they had available to them at the 21
time. That information is what was the foundation 22
of every decision they made. 23
MR. FREIMAN: How do you know 24
that? 25
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SGT SHANNON: Because it's clear 1
in the records. 2
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So I don't 3
think I'm going to get you to agree with me that 4
there was ever a decision made by anyone other 5
than Corporal Langridge? 6
SGT SHANNON: The members of the 7
chain of command, Captain Lubiniecki now, Major 8
Lubiniecki, the DCO of the Regiment and the CO of 9
the Regiment, convened a casualty co-ordination 10
meeting on the 17th of March 2008 -- 11
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 12
SGT SHANNON: -- and during that 13
meeting they brought in the experts within their 14
chain of command that they had available. They 15
brought in the Chief Clerk who brought in the 16
relevant documents; they had the presence of mind 17
to invite their Unit Legal Advisor to that meeting 18
and the RSM I believe was also in attendance. So 19
they had the conscious of mind to have a open, 20
frank discussion, a comprehensive review of the 21
personal file of Corporal Langridge. They did not 22
make any decisions until they were sure that the 23
relevant documents existed and were valid. There 24
was no rash decision-making, there was no 25
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decisions made in isolation, it was an accurate 1
process and within the guidelines of the 2
regulations and rules that guide casualty 3
co-ordination within the Canadian Forces. 4
MR. FREIMAN: If I understand 5
correctly, you decided not to interview Major 6
Reichert? 7
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 8
MR. FREIMAN: In fact, you decided 9
not to interview anybody who was at the casualty 10
co-ordination meeting. 11
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 12
MR. FREIMAN: So your statements 13
about what happened there are based on...? 14
SGT SHANNON: The written record, 15
sir. 16
MR. FREIMAN: What written record 17
is that? 18
SGT SHANNON: There is the 19
e-mail -- all the e-mail communications that are 20
available between the various levels of the chain 21
of command, plus the public messages, the SIRs 22
that were drafted in Edmonton and forwarded to the 23
Command Headquarters in Ottawa. The document 24
outlining how decisions were made, what documents 25
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were referenced is very clear. And due to the 1
passage of time the records are much more accurate 2
and telling than what someone might say four years 3
later because their memory has faded. 4
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So I 5
understand I think why you decided not to pursue 6
any of these interviews. 7
Before I move on, though, I was 8
going to ask you what the scope of the allegations 9
was, but I think you have told me that you 10
dismissed any allegation that would have related 11
to Ms Hamilton-Tree's conduct to be -- 12
SGT SHANNON: I didn't dismiss it, 13
sir. I examined it and -- 14
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. Well, you 15
dismissed its relevance. 16
SGT SHANNON: I dismissed it as an 17
allegation for the reasons I have stated and if 18
you look at the information that was provided by 19
Ms Hamilton-Tree at that date, she's the only one 20
who provided the information that appeared on the 21
Death Certificate and the information that she 22
provided was not inaccurate in her mind. 23
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. But again, 24
you say with some confidence that she was the only 25
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person who provided information. You didn't 1
interview Ms Hamilton-Tree, did you? 2
SGT SHANNON: No, I did not, sir. 3
MR. FREIMAN: So you don't know 4
what she would say if asked who provided the 5
information? 6
SGT SHANNON: No, sir, but I 7
examined the Death Certificate -- the original 8
copy of the Death Certificate -- and if you were 9
to put yourself in the shoes of Ms Hamilton-tree 10
and you have just suffered through a horrible 11
ordeal and you are now put into place where you're 12
planning the final remembrance of your loved one 13
and you are asked some spontaneous questions by an 14
individual that you have just met, you are going 15
to provide the instinctive answers that you know 16
to be true in your heart. 17
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. Now, I 18
understand what you're telling me, but these are 19
conclusions that you come to without actually 20
talking to anybody involved; right? 21
SGT SHANNON: Because the 22
documents speak for themselves, sir. 23
MR. FREIMAN: Well, would it 24
surprise you that in evidence before this 25
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Commission Ms Hamilton-Tree said that it was 1
Second Lieutenant Brown who provided much of the 2
information based on records that he had brought 3
with him? 4
SGT SHANNON: Yes. The records of 5
Corporal Langridge from his file. 6
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 7
SGT SHANNON: So Corporal 8
Langridge had not had the opportunity to update 9
his address so you have to go to the issue of 10
intent. 11
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. But you -- 12
SGT SHANNON: So nobody -- 13
MR. FREIMAN: -- are way ahead of 14
me, way, way ahead of me because you're at the end 15
of the race, I'm still in the starting blocks 16
waiting for the starter's gun to say the race is 17
on. 18
MS RICHARDS: Well, with respect, 19
could the witness be given the opportunity to 20
provide his fulsome answer? 21
MR. FREIMAN: Go ahead. 22
SGT SHANNON: So if you look at 23
the information that was obtained by Lieutenant 24
Brown, he obtained the personal file of Corporal 25
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Langridge. This is the information that was 1
presented to the Canadian Forces by Corporal 2
Langridge, not by anybody else. This is my 3
address, this is my marital status, this is my 4
next of kin, et cetera, et cetera. So Second 5
Lieutenant Brown only had access to the 6
information that was presented to the Canadian 7
Forces by Corporal Langridge. 8
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 9
SGT SHANNON: So if you combine 10
the information that was provided by Corporal -- 11
I'm sorry, Second Lieutenant Brown and Ms 12
Hamilton-Tree was it 100 percent updated accurate; 13
maybe not? Was their address outdated by two or 14
three weeks; maybe so. But at one time the 15
information that was provided was accurate and 16
conclusive information based on the available 17
records -- 18
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 19
SGT SHANNON: -- to the Canadian 20
Forces. 21
MR. FREIMAN: Again, I think 22
you're coming to the conclusions that you formed 23
about the substantive merit of the complaint. 24
All I'm going at -- this is why I 25
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said we're still in the starting block waiting for 1
the starter's gun -- is you said that Ms 2
Hamilton-Tree was the only person who provided 3
information and I simply brought to your attention 4
the fact that her evidence was that somebody else 5
provided information. It could be that the 6
information they provided has no inculpatory 7
consequence, I'm just looking at that basic 8
building block. 9
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 10
MR. FREIMAN: All right. And 11
really I don't know that we need to go much 12
further because you have told us that with respect 13
to the allegations under the Vital Statistics Act 14
that were brought by the Fynes you thought you had 15
no jurisdiction and that a limitation period had 16
passed in any event. 17
SGT SHANNON: Yes. Mr. and Mrs. 18
Fynes should have been advised as soon as that 19
information was brought forward and I believe the 20
first person to make the allegation to the 21
Military Police was Major Parkinson, not Mr. And 22
Mrs. Fynes. 23
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 24
SGT SHANNON: However, when that 25
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allegation was first brought to the attention of 1
the Military Police they should have been given 2
advice that that matter should have been reported 3
to the Edmonton Police Service, which would have 4
been the police service of primary jurisdiction. 5
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So are you 6
saying that there is something that should have 7
been done that wasn't done in response to Major 8
Parkinson's communications? 9
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 10
MR. FREIMAN: And that is to pass 11
it on as a complaint? 12
SGT SHANNON: No, no, not to pass 13
it on. Major Parkinson should have been advised 14
that it was his duty if he had evidence of an 15
offence to report it to the police service of 16
primary jurisdiction, which should have been the 17
Edmonton Police Service. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. And it's the 19
Military Police who should have told him that or 20
it's the chain of command who should have told him 21
that? 22
SGT SHANNON: If it had been me 23
hearing that allegation -- I can't comment on the 24
conduct of other individuals when I wasn't there. 25
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If it had been me, I would have told Major 1
Parkinson just that, "I can't deal with that 2
matter because I have no jurisdiction. If you 3
wish to pursue the matter you need to contact the 4
Edmonton Police Service. 5
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. And you have 6
also told us that insofar as the conduct of either 7
Second Lieutenant Brown or the conduct of Corporal 8
Rohmer at the funeral home is concerned you 9
believe that was outside of the scope of your 10
jurisdiction because it didn't have a direct 11
impact on the operations of the Canadian Forces? 12
SGT SHANNON: Correct. So if the 13
matter had been reported in a timely matter to the 14
Edmonton Police Service, they would have been able 15
to potentially investigate the matter as they see 16
it. As far as a Code of Service Discipline 17
offence, their conduct not on DND property would 18
not be able to be enveloped into the military 19
justice system. There is a clear distinction that 20
not all conduct by members of the Canadian Forces 21
constitutes a military offence. 22
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 23
SGT SHANNON: Every member of the 24
Canadian Forces is subject to every other law of 25
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the realm just like every other citizen. 1
MR. FREIMAN: All right. All I'm 2
trying to do is to clear our table of some 3
unnecessary pots and pans. 4
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 5
MR. FREIMAN: And if I understood 6
your evidence correctly the allegations regarding 7
the Vital Statistics Act, Ms Hamilton-Tree's 8
behaviour at the funeral home, Corporal Rohmer's 9
behaviour at the funeral home, Second Lieutenant 10
Brown's behaviour at the funeral home were all 11
outside of the proper scope of your investigation? 12
SGT SHANNON: And outside the 13
mandate of the National Investigations Service. 14
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. All right. 15
Now, in addition to the 16
interview -- 17
THE CHAIRPERSON: If you're moving 18
to a new topic -- 19
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 20
THE CHAIRPERSON: -- I wonder if 21
this might be a good time, if that works. 22
MR. FREIMAN: Absolutely. 23
THE CHAIRPERSON: Just until five 24
to 3:00, that's all. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: Perfect. 1
--- Upon recessing at 1440 / Suspension à 1440 2
--- Upon resuming at 1456 / Reprise à 1456 3
MR. FREIMAN: Sergeant Shannon, I 4
may want to come back and talk a little more about 5
the interviews that Major Dandurand had with the 6
Fynes, but for the moment I want to pass to a 7
second source of information that you were able to 8
mine in your review of the file, and that's the 9
summary investigation. 10
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 11
MR. FREIMAN: Now, in terms of the 12
assistance that you got from the summary 13
investigation, of what use was it to you? 14
SGT SHANNON: The primary 15
purpose -- the primary benefit from reviewing the 16
summary investigation was to gain situational 17
awareness of the larger picture of all the 18
interlocking events that related to the passing of 19
Corporal Langridge. 20
MR. FREIMAN: Now, did you notice 21
that the terms of reference of the summary 22
investigation expressed that it was done in 23
contemplation of litigation? 24
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: What does that mean 1
to you? 2
SGT SHANNON: That means to me 3
that is the direction that is provided by the 4
Commander to the individual who is assigned to 5
conduct that investigation, much is the same as I 6
receive my direction from Warrant Officer 7
Bonneteau. 8
So within the scope of the 9
Canadian Forces there are three bona fide 10
legislated processes for conducting 11
investigations. The first two are administrative 12
related, so Boards of Inquiry and Summary 13
Investigations. Then there is a third style of 14
legislated style of investigation which are 15
disciplinary investigations, which can either be 16
conducted by the unit or by the Military Police. 17
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. What I really 18
wanted to know, though, is what does the terms "in 19
contemplation of litigation" mean to you as to the 20
perspective and the use to which the material 21
compiled will be -- may have? 22
SGT SHANNON: To my understanding, 23
that means that every -- the findings of the 24
summary investigation could be made available to 25
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the parties of civil litigation through the 1
discovery process. 2
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. Now, correct 3
me if I'm wrong, because I thought that a summary 4
investigation in contemplation of litigation was 5
an investigation that was intended to provide 6
information that would be used by the government 7
in its defence in litigation. 8
SGT SHANNON: I don't take it as 9
meaning that, sir. 10
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So your 11
understanding is that this was an inquiry whose 12
purpose -- of one of whose purposes was to 13
generate information that would be made available 14
through the discovery process to both sides? 15
SGT SHANNON: If necessary, sir, 16
but the primary purpose of the summary 17
investigation was to answer the stated questions 18
of the terms of reference. 19
MR. FREIMAN: All right. And did 20
you notice, sir, that one of the terms of 21
reference was that there was no requirement to 22
find who should have been designated as the next 23
of kin or notified? 24
SGT SHANNON: No, sir, because 25
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that's beyond the scope of the Canadian Forces. 1
It's not their job, it's not their responsibility, 2
it's not their role. 3
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. I'm not 4
asking whether it was a good idea or it was a bad 5
idea, I'm just asking whether you noticed that 6
that was not included in the terms of reference, 7
it was not included, it was excluded from the 8
terms of reference specifically? 9
SGT SHANNON: Because it's not -- 10
it has no bearing on the actions of the Canadian 11
Forces. 12
MR. FREIMAN: All right. Now, 13
given that it was excluded, of what use do you 14
think the investigation could be in -- well, I 15
guess you didn't -- correct me if I'm wrong -- you 16
didn't think it was necessary in fact to establish 17
the question of who should have been designated, 18
the answer was self-evident, it was the common-law 19
spouse. 20
SGT SHANNON: Yes, because that is 21
the decision made by Corporal Langridge. 22
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. And at the 23
time that you were reading the summary 24
investigation report, you had already come to that 25
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conclusion? 1
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 2
MR. FREIMAN: No. When did you 3
come to that conclusion? 4
SGT SHANNON: At the end. 5
MR. FREIMAN: Well, when did you 6
come to the conclusion that Corporal Langridge had 7
appointed Ms Hamilton-Tree by means of their 8
declaration of common-law to carry out the task of 9
making decisions related to his funeral? 10
SGT SHANNON: So, when I completed 11
the review of the summary investigation, the 12
summary investigation had a number of documents 13
that were used to further their investigative 14
process. 15
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 16
SGT SHANNON: Every single 17
document contained in the SI that I made reference 18
to was also already contained in the 2009 GO file 19
through the work of Major Dandurand, Petty Officer 20
McLaughlin and Sergeant Mitchell. 21
So, I confirmed that the documents 22
that available in the SI were already the same 23
documents that were present in the 2009 file. As 24
I've noted in my investigative report, I completed 25
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the review of the summary investigation and then I 1
spent another 10 days analyzing documents and 2
policy and then I prepared that second text entry 3
listing everything that I had identified that I 4
believed was relevant to this investigation. 5
MR. FREIMAN: And was that the 6
point where you came to the conclusion that 7
Corporal Langridge had appointed the person who 8
was to make decisions about his funeral? 9
SGT SHANNON: Corporal Langridge 10
made two decisions related to issues of dealing 11
with his affairs after his passing. 12
So, the first document that has 13
any relevance to that is his will. So, in his 14
initial will that was on his personnel file, he 15
identified two executors of his estate and he 16
identified the beneficiary of his estate. So, he 17
made the conscious decision in 2002 that his first 18
choice as executor was Mr. Wight and he identified 19
his secondary executor in the case that the 20
primary could not perform his duties, and he 21
decided that his mother, Mrs. Fynes, was to be the 22
beneficiary of his estate. 23
Moving forward in time, he entered 24
into a relationship with Ms Hamilton-Tree and 25
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after the prerequisite period of time, he attended 1
the offices of his Commanding Officer and entered 2
into a statutory declaration with Ms Hamilton-Tree 3
in presence and he made the arrangements with his 4
Commanding Officer to enter into that formal/legal 5
marriage relationship. 6
MR. FREIMAN: I don't think, sir, 7
that was the question I asked. I asked you when 8
you came to the conclusion that Corporal Langridge 9
had determined who was to take charge of his 10
funeral arrangements? 11
SGT SHANNON: I answered that 12
question, sir, I said it was a Tuesday to the 13
question. So, he made partial decisions in 14
2002 -- 15
MR. FREIMAN: I asked you when you 16
came to the conclusion? 17
SGT SHANNON: The date I submitted 18
that second text box. 19
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 20
SGT SHANNON: So I believe it's 21
the 15th of October. 22
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So, by the 23
15th of October you had come to this conclusion? 24
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: And you came to it 1
on the basis of a -- well, a review of the 2
material that you set out in your assessment -- 3
your investigative assessment and, as I understood 4
it, that included the contents of the '09 file as 5
it came down to you. 6
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 7
MR. FREIMAN: Plus an expanded 8
reading of the summary investigation, just to be 9
sure there was nothing that had escaped your 10
attention? 11
SGT SHANNON: And more so. No. 1 12
reason for reviewing the summary investigation was 13
components of the summary investigation report 14
were already in the 2009 file, but not the entire 15
report. 16
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 17
SGT SHANNON: So, based on the 18
rulings of the Commission and the acceptance of 19
those rulings by the Provost Marshal, I'm required 20
to review in totality everything, which is what I 21
did. 22
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. And by the 23
15th had you completed your review of the relevant 24
statutory, regulatory and other relevant material? 25
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SGT SHANNON: Yes. So, at the 1
conclusion of my evaluation of the hundreds of 2
pages of documents that were available for my 3
review, I identified 51 relevant pages of 4
documents and policy that are attached to my 5
investigation assessment and those 51 pages are 6
the foundation of all the decisions I made in 7
concluding this investigation. 8
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. And you're 9
confident that those 51 documents were sufficient 10
for you to come to the decision you did? 11
SGT SHANNON: I could not locate 12
in my review and my analysis any other regulations 13
orders to identify the primary investigation that 14
I was conducting which was the next of kin issue 15
and the legal actions of Lieutenant Colonel King. 16
However, I will add that the 17
November press conference by Mrs. Fynes she made a 18
public allegation that the Canadian Forces allowed 19
other members to plan her son's funeral 20
Upon hearing that public 21
allegation, I expanded the scope of my 22
investigation and I incorporated that new 23
allegation into my investigation. So then I did 24
conduct further research of the policies, rules 25
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and regulations and customs of the Canadian Forces 1
that relate directly to funerals. 2
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So -- 3
SGT SHANNON: So, at that time, so 4
after November I was investigating three 5
allegations, not two. 6
MR. FREIMAN: Can you help me to 7
understand how the third allegation was different 8
from the one that you were originally 9
investigating, not the Lieutenant Colonel King 10
allegation, the first allegation -- 11
SGT SHANNON: The first allegation 12
was related to the next of kin and the allegation 13
was very specific that members of the Canadian 14
Forces chain of command of the Lord Strathcona 15
Horse appointed Ms Hamilton-Tree as the common-law 16
spouse without any documents to support that 17
decision. That was allegation No. 1. 18
Allegation No. 2 was referencing 19
Lieutenant Colonel King. 20
I determined based on my 21
witnessing and listening to the statement of Mrs. 22
Fynes on national television, it was a clear and 23
distinct separate allegation, so I expanded the 24
scope of my investigation and did my work 25
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accordingly. 1
MR. FREIMAN: Let me just 2
understand. You said that you understood the 3
first allegation as the Fynes claiming that the 4
Canadian Forces appointed Ms Hamilton-Tree as the 5
common-law spouse. 6
SGT SHANNON: Without 7
documentation supporting that. 8
MR. FREIMAN: Can you show me 9
anywhere in which the Fynes say that the Canadian 10
Forces appointed Ms Hamilton-Tree as common-law 11
spouse? 12
SGT SHANNON: The allegation -- 13
the specific allegation is that Captain Lubiniecki 14
made that decision without supporting 15
documentation. I apologize for -- 16
MR. FREIMAN: No, no, I appreciate 17
the precision and it's the precision that I'd like 18
to test with you. 19
Can you show me where the 20
allegation is that whoever, Captain Lubiniecki or 21
Santa Claus, doesn't matter, appointed Ms 22
Hamilton-Tree as common-law spouse without 23
documentation? 24
And if you'd like to take a 25
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minute, if you know where you can find it. 1
SGT SHANNON: I believe it's in 2
the statements of Mr. Martel when he made his 3
initial presentation to the NIS. And also I 4
believe that's the wording of the initial 5
complaint for this file. 6
MR. FREIMAN: Well, maybe we can 7
find the initial complaint for the file and we can 8
check. 9
I give leave to those who 10
understands these things when I don't. 11
SGT SHANNON: No, if I could refer 12
you, sir, to page 29 -- 13
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 14
SGT SHANNON: -- of the 2009 file, 15
Book No. 1, paragraph No. 1 of the case summary. 16
MR. FREIMAN: This? 17
SGT SHANNON: 18
"On 28 November, 2009, Mr. 19
and Mrs. Fynes --" 20
THE CHAIRPERSON: Have you got the 21
page? 22
SGT SHANNON: Oh, sorry, sir. 23
THE CHAIRMAN: Page number? 24
SGT SHANNON: Page 29, sir. 25
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Paragraph 1 reads: 1
"On 28 November, 2009, Mr. 2
and Mrs. Fynes alleged that 3
the Lord Strathcona Horse, 4
Royal Canadian Adjutant 5
(later identified as Major 6
Lubinieki) was negligent in 7
that he appointed Ms 8
Hamilton-Tree as the next of 9
kin of Corporal Langridge 10
even though there was no 11
documentation to support that 12
she was ever formally 13
appointed as such by Corporal 14
Langridge." (As read) 15
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. And I just 16
point out to you that the term used there is not 17
common-law spouse, it's next of kin. 18
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 19
MR. FREIMAN: And do you see 20
there's any difference between the two 21
allegations? 22
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 23
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. Just 24
returning for a moment to the topic of the summary 25
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investigation, I understand that included in the 1
package of materials relevant to the summary 2
investigation that was provided to you were 3
letters that were sent by the reviewing authority 4
and the approval authority. 5
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 6
MR. FREIMAN: All right. I'd like 7
to look at those with you for a moment. 8
Can we look at Tab 105. This is a 9
letter dated 25 March, 2010 and it is from 10
Brigadier General Corbould to a distribution list 11
of people who have a valid interest in receiving 12
it. 13
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 14
MR. FREIMAN: And paragraph 5 15
says: 16
"In closing, I believe this 17
topic has been dwelled into 18
enough and do not believe 19
there to be any benefit of 20
disclosing any of the SI to 21
Corporal Langridge's family. 22
It simply would not provide 23
or console them in any 24
matter. Unless there is any 25
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new information which comes 1
to light, I consider this 2
matter to be closed and the 3
above follow-up actions and 4
direction will transpire in a 5
prompt manner to bring this 6
case to a close." (As read) 7
MR. FREIMAN: Did you draw any 8
conclusions from the fact that Brigadier General 9
Corbould thought that the matter had been 10
investigated and conclusively resolved, such 11
that -- 12
SGT SHANNON: Investigated in, 13
they only investigated administrative matters, 14
sir. As I explained to you earlier, there is 15
three avenues of statutory investigation within 16
the Canadian Forces. Each of them styles of 17
investigation have a separate and distinct 18
purpose. 19
So, in the issues of an 20
administrative matter are for the sole purpose of: 21
let's learn lessons from issues so that the 22
Canadian Forces can modernize policy, make 23
corrective action so that the organization as an 24
institution can modernize in step with changes in 25
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society. That is the purpose of an administrative 1
review. 2
A criminal investigation is a 3
completely separate matter. I have already 4
identified the only information that I drew from 5
the summary investigation are the documents that I 6
identified in my investigative assessment and I 7
identified those documents and was unable to rely 8
on the use of those documents without violating 9
any of the principles of evidence that apply to 10
police investigations in Canada. 11
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 12
SGT SHANNON: So, no other 13
information in the summary investigation other 14
than what I have identified in my investigative 15
assessment was used as part of my decision-making 16
process. 17
MR. FREIMAN: And is the reason 18
why no other document was used, that the 19
statements in the summary investigation were given 20
under compulsion? 21
SGT SHANNON: The statements that 22
are provided in the summary investigation are not 23
relevant to my work because they would be not 24
admissible in a criminal proceeding. The legal 25
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theory, fruit of a poison tree would apply. 1
MR. FREIMAN: Now, that's what I 2
said. It's a poison tree because the testimony 3
isn't voluntary. 4
SGT SHANNON: And there is 5
statutory rules that says, anything provided 6
cannot be used in a disciplinary or criminal 7
proceeding. 8
MR. FREIMAN: In criminal 9
proceedings? 10
SGT SHANNON: Within the Canadian 11
Forces. So, anything that's contained I cannot 12
use because it would violate fruit of the poison 13
tree. 14
MR. FREIMAN: You're not 15
suggesting that the military can promulgate 16
regulations that would bind the criminal law 17
process of Canada; are you? 18
SGT SHANNON: They can for the 19
purposes of the military justice system, yes. But 20
even in a criminal proceeding, I would warrant 21
that the fruit of the poison tree would apply. 22
MR. FREIMAN: Yes, okay. That's 23
just what I wanted to discuss with you. 24
Is that the same reason that you 25
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were unable to -- or were you able to rely on the 1
Board of Inquiry for any purpose? 2
SGT SHANNON: I did not. I read 3
the Board of Inquiry because it's part of the GO 4
file, however, I placed no relevance or weight on 5
the Board of Inquiry as I was not interested in 6
the issues surrounding the initial investigation 7
into the passing of Corporal Langridge. 8
MR. FREIMAN: Did you in fact read 9
the testimony in the summary investigation? 10
SGT SHANNON: I did, sir. 11
MR. FREIMAN: And did you not 12
consider that that might violate the fruit of the 13
poison tree principle? 14
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. Because, 15
as I stated, I did not use any of the information 16
provided in witness statements in making my 17
decisions. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. Well, we 19
don't have to test that in any criminal 20
proceedings. So, I'm not going to play barracks 21
lawyer on that. 22
I'd like then to turn with you -- 23
assuming I can find it, which may be an improper 24
assumption -- to your investigative assessment. 25
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SGT SHANNON: That's located on 1
page 224, sir. 2
MR. FREIMAN: Great. Now, I have 3
to trouble Ms Alexander. 4
Why don't we start with the time 5
line. 6
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 7
MR. FREIMAN: As you were 8
compiling the time line of significant events -- 9
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 10
MR. FREIMAN: -- what was going 11
through your mind, what was the purpose of this 12
time line? 13
SGT SHANNON: The purpose, as I 14
stated earlier, sir, this investigative assessment 15
is an investigation tool that I have developed 16
over time through my experience with the National 17
Investigation Service. 18
It is useful in investigations 19
that are complex in nature, have a huge volume of 20
documentation, or in situations where there are a 21
significant number of allegations that need to be 22
followed. 23
So, the purpose of the 24
investigation assessment in this form is to take 25
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my assessment and my understanding of the previous 1
thousand pages that existed in SAMPIS when I took 2
over this file and to condense and identify and 3
clarify all the relevant allegations and all the 4
relevant information, and then as you proceed 5
through the investigation assessment, it 6
identifies everything that I'm going to use to 7
analyze and conduct the elements of the offence 8
analysis at the end speak, and then it concludes 9
by identifying what items or what issues that 10
still require further investigation by the NIS. 11
So, it's a document prepared as a 12
one-stop shopping, not only for myself, but for my 13
supervisors and also if anybody is tasked to 14
assist me as a secondary investigator, they have 15
one document where they can go through and gain in 16
a short period of time a clear understanding of 17
the issues and of what needs to be further 18
investigated in the future. 19
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 20
SGT SHANNON: And then as we've 21
also seen, so paragraph 6 became the amendment to 22
the investigation plan. 23
MR. FREIMAN: And was this the 24
amendment that was made necessary by virtue of 25
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what you understood to be a new allegation when 1
you listened to the interview on the 1st of 2
November? 3
SGT SHANNON: No. 4
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 5
SGT SHANNON: This occurred in -- 6
1st of November I believe the press conference by 7
Mrs. Fynes, was either shortly after, I can't 8
recall. 9
MR. FREIMAN: All right. I'm not 10
going to take you through each and every point in 11
your line. I do notice, however, that there's no 12
reference made to the discovery of new documents. 13
SGT SHANNON: Yes. I did 14
determine that that was not relevant, sir. 15
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 16
SGT SHANNON: If I could clarify 17
that. So, in every offence under Statute Law in 18
Canada there are four common elements of every 19
offence: so, date, time, location and identity of 20
the accused. So, when I'm going through my plan 21
I'm doing a step-by-step process where I'm 22
identifying the elements of the offence and I'm 23
collating information and evidence to establishing 24
or disproving specific elements of an offence. 25
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So, the first task I had to do was 1
identify date, time and location. So, for the 2
purposes of allegation No. 1, the next of kin 3
allegation, I determined that the relevant time 4
frame at issue was between the 15th of March, 2008 5
and the 18th of March, 2008. 6
Those were the dates, that is the 7
time frame when all the decisions that are a 8
component of the allegation made by Mrs. Fynes 9
occurred. 10
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. Now you're 11
talking about decisions. So, you'll agree with me 12
the word 'decisions' you had to look at? 13
SGT SHANNON: That is the 14
allegation of Mr. Fynes. So all actions that are 15
relevant to that allegation occurred between the 16
15th and the 18th of March. So, that was the 17
window of time I focused my investigation on. 18
MR. FREIMAN: All right. So, why 19
was it not relevant that a new series of documents 20
was discovered before the funeral? 21
SGT SHANNON: No. 1, for myself, 22
so, the documents were not signed, they were not 23
completed. No. 2, there was no new document 24
related to common-law status. So there was no -- 25
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I believe it's annex B to the CFAO -- so there was 1
no annex B statutory declaration that would have 2
ended the common-law relationship as required by 3
policy. 4
So, in my mind, Corporal Langridge 5
was not contemplating ending his statutory 6
relationship with Ms Hamilton-Tree. 7
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. We'll get to 8
it in a minute, but you've already told us that 9
the will forms part of a matrix of decisions that 10
Corporal Langridge made -- 11
SGT SHANNON: Yes. 12
MR. FREIMAN: -- about what would 13
happen after his death? 14
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 15
MR. FREIMAN: Was the fact that a 16
new will was discovered not relevant from that 17
point? 18
SGT SHANNON: The will that was 19
discovered I believe was initially deemed to be 20
not valid because it was not signed, it was not 21
dated and it was not witnessed and the only 22
conclusive change from the first will, the valid 23
will that was on his file and the second will that 24
was discovered, was a change in executor. The 25
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beneficiary stayed the same. 1
So, Corporal Langridge's wishes 2
and intent at all times was that Mrs. Fynes was to 3
be the beneficiary of his estate. That did not 4
change. 5
There was no new document that 6
would lead me to believe that Corporal Langridge 7
was contemplating changing his common-law status. 8
MR. FREIMAN: Well, you're focused 9
on common-law status. For purposes of your 10
investigation then, I take it that it was 11
irrelevant who Corporal Langridge had appointed as 12
his executor? 13
SGT SHANNON: It was very 14
relevant, sir. 15
MR. FREIMAN: Why was it relevant? 16
SGT SHANNON: The executor is the 17
person that you trust and respect that is going to 18
look after your legal affairs after your passing. 19
MR. FREIMAN: Where does this 20
information come from? You've told us about the 21
role of an executor. 22
SGT SHANNON: The role of the 23
executor is very clearly defined. It varies from 24
province to province because it's a determination 25
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by provincial statute. So I can't give you a 1
uniform -- in some provinces it's called personal 2
representative. In some provinces it's called 3
executor of the estate. 4
So the role of executor is defined 5
by provincial law because that is a constitutional 6
responsibility of the provinces, not the federal 7
government. 8
So the role of executor in this 9
case is defined by the law of the Province of 10
Alberta. 11
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. And you said 12
it's very relevant. What's the relevance? 13
SGT SHANNON: Because that's the 14
person that Corporal Langridge trusted to look 15
after his affairs, his legal affairs and his 16
financial affairs after his passing. 17
MR. FREIMAN: And what about to 18
ensure that -- what about with relation to the 19
funeral? Does the executor have any 20
responsibility in connection with the funeral? 21
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 22
MR. FREIMAN: What is that? 23
SGT SHANNON: His responsibility 24
is defined by the laws of the Province of Alberta. 25
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So it's his alternate responsibility because he is 1
the legal representative of Corporal Langridge 2
following his passing. 3
So from the 15th of March until 4
the day of his funeral Mr. Wight acted in the 5
interests, the legal interests of Corporal 6
Langridge. 7
MR. FREIMAN: All right. So is it 8
not relevant that Ms Hamilton-Tree was appointed 9
to make funeral arrangements rather than Mr. 10
Wight? 11
SGT SHANNON: As far as I 12
understand that would be an issue outside the 13
purview of the Canadian Forces. That's between 14
Mr. Wight and Ms Hamilton-Tree. 15
MR. FREIMAN: All right. Well, I 16
know that you don't think that any decision was 17
made but, again, come with me while I ride my 18
hobby horse. 19
If in fact the Canadian Forces did 20
make a decision and said, "Ms Hamilton-Tree, 21
you're the person to whom we are going to turn to 22
make these decisions"? 23
SGT SHANNON: Yes, and that's in 24
total agreement with the rules and regulations of 25
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the funeral regulations within the Canadian 1
Forces. The funeral is the responsibility of the 2
family, not the Canadian Forces. 3
If you look at the regulation it's 4
in the GO file -- I don't have the exact page 5
number but the order governing military funerals 6
clearly states that the Canadian Forces, the 7
commanding officer of a unit can respond to the 8
wishes of the family. 9
And in this case the record is 10
clear. The Canadian Forces responded to the 11
wishes of Ms Hamilton-Tree and Mr. and Mrs. Fynes 12
in the manner in which their funeral was planned 13
and conducted. 14
MR. FREIMAN: You've just finished 15
telling me that it's the role of the executor to 16
ensure that matters are done properly. 17
SGT SHANNON: Yes, and my research 18
and my understanding of that situation is that the 19
executor would consult a member's family and 20
obtain the wishes of the family. 21
But at the end of the day, the 22
executor can override the family. 23
MR. FREIMAN: Can. 24
SGT SHANNON: Yes. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: Right. And in this 1
case was the executor ever consulted? 2
SGT SHANNON: I have no idea, sir, 3
because that's not the purview of the Canadian 4
Forces. That's an issue between Mrs. 5
Hamilton-Tree and Mrs. Fynes and Mr. Wight. 6
MR. FREIMAN: But wait a minute. 7
If the Canadian Forces are going to turn to 8
someone don't they have -- 9
SGT SHANNON: No, they responded 10
to the requests of the family. They did not 11
provide direction to the family on how the funeral 12
will be conducted. 13
They waited to hear the requests 14
from Ms Hamilton-Tree and Mr. and Mrs. Fynes. The 15
wishes of the two family members were communicated 16
by the assisting officers to the Adjutant of the 17
Regiment. 18
The Adjutant of the Regiment 19
responded to the wishes of the family and 20
determined that the military in accordance with 21
regulation could support those wishes and the 22
planning proceeded. 23
MR. FREIMAN: So you gathered all 24
of that information that you have just conveyed to 25
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us without benefit of any interviews based on the 1
documents. 2
SGT SHANNON: Because the document 3
record is very clear that that process transpired. 4
MR. FREIMAN: Isn't the document 5
record clear that the Canadian Forces early on 6
determined that the person whose wishes needed to 7
be followed was Rebecca Hamilton-Tree? 8
SGT SHANNON: Because they had 9
determined that she was the common-law spouse. 10
MR. FREIMAN: And didn't you just 11
tell me that the person who can override that is 12
the executor? 13
SGT SHANNON: And Mr. Wight chose 14
not to do so. 15
MR. FREIMAN: How do you know 16
that? 17
SGT SHANNON: Because he didn't. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Do you have any 19
information that somebody contacted Mr. Wight? 20
SGT SHANNON: That is beyond the 21
purview of the military. 22
MR. FREIMAN: So the military has 23
no obligation to determine whether it is dealing 24
with the right person when it says we have to obey 25
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your wishes? 1
SGT SHANNON: Yes, the process is 2
very clear and the sequence of events that 3
occurred, I believe if you look at the 4
investigation assessment and/or -- I can't 5
recall -- but on 15 March when Mrs. Fynes was 6
first attended by the Notification Officer, she 7
had already provided her Notification Officer with 8
her initial wishes for the funeral and agreed that 9
the Assisting Officer would communicate those 10
wishes to the Assisting Officer of Ms 11
Hamilton-Tree. 12
And at that meeting she also 13
informed her Notification Officer that she would 14
be phoning Mrs. Hamilton-Tree that night to 15
further discuss funeral planning. 16
It wasn't until the next day where 17
she was informed that the Regiment had 18
acknowledged that Ms Hamilton-Tree was the next of 19
kin. So she had already made statements that she 20
was going to be co-planning the funeral with Ms 21
Hamilton-Tree. 22
MR. FREIMAN: Yeah, well -- but 23
again I don't think -- 24
SGT SHANNON: So that had a lot of 25
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weight in my decisions. 1
MR. FREIMAN: No harm, no foul? 2
SGT SHANNON: The record is clear. 3
She made those statements before she learned that 4
the Regiment had recognized that Ms Hamilton-Tree 5
was the common-law spouse and the next of kin. 6
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. And some of 7
those decisions, you'll agree with me, had to be 8
revisited in order to accommodate Ms 9
Hamilton-Tree's preferences. 10
SGT SHANNON: Yes, there is a very 11
concise clear record over a number of days of 12
negotiations and communications between Mrs. Fynes 13
and Ms Hamilton-Tree where they both stated their 14
wishes. They both came to a compromised agreement 15
on the final decisions on how the funeral would 16
transpire. 17
MR. FREIMAN: But bear with me for 18
a moment. That's the outcome. I'm talking about 19
the decision made by the Canadian Forces. 20
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 21
MR. FREIMAN: We've seen the 22
Canadian Forces decided early on that they would 23
turn to Ms Hamilton-Tree for instructions. 24
SGT SHANNON: And Mrs. Fynes made 25
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that same decision the first day she was aware 1
that her son had passed. 2
MR. FREIMAN: Well -- 3
SGT SHANNON: Again, that goes 4
back to the logic, the customs of our society. 5
MR. FREIMAN: Yeah, but -- 6
SGT SHANNON: So the customs of 7
our society say the spouse is the person you would 8
turn to. Nobody is going to turn to anybody else 9
but someone's spouse. 10
MR. FREIMAN: Well, didn't you 11
tell me that legally it should be the executor who 12
is turned to? 13
SGT SHANNON: From a legal 14
perspective the executor has the final say. 15
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 16
SGT SHANNON: And based on my 17
understanding of research and I believe it's also 18
contained in the Assisting Guide to Commanding 19
Officers and to Assisting Officers that the role 20
of the executor is detailed. 21
It also states in that document, I 22
believe, which would be the information the 23
Commanding Officer would have available to him 24
that the executor should consult with the members 25
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of the family and make every effort to respect the 1
wishes of the family. 2
Again, the Canadian Forces has 3
absolutely no role in that process. 4
MR. FREIMAN: But it has a role in 5
deciding whom it's going to go to for instructions 6
as to what to do with the body. 7
SGT SHANNON: No; no, sir. The 8
Canadian Forces had absolutely no dealings with 9
the processing of the remains of Corporal 10
Langridge. That is purely a provincial matter 11
conducted by the medical examiner and the coroner. 12
The Canadian Forces had absolutely no role. 13
As soon as the police 14
investigation at the crime scene was concluded and 15
the body was removed by the body removal service 16
the custody and care and control of Corporal 17
Langridge transferred to provincial authorities. 18
MR. FREIMAN: I think I'm missing 19
something. Isn't the funeral and the arrangements 20
for burial an aspect of disposition of the body? 21
SGT SHANNON: No, sir, because -- 22
well, it is but the military has no bearing. 23
So when a member of the Canadian 24
Forces passes away the only time the military is 25
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responsible for transportation is when it's an 1
international fatality. 2
If it's an international fatality 3
the Ontario Coroners Act applies for all deceased 4
Canadian Forces members. So when we attend the 5
scene there is a negotiation that is done between 6
the Ontario coroner and the coroner of the 7
particular nation where the person passed. 8
So for instance, the investigation 9
that I did in the Bahamas there was a 10
communication and an agreement because the Ontario 11
coroner recognized the training and qualifications 12
of the coroner in the Bahamas. So the autopsy was 13
performed in the Bahamas and the cause of death 14
was established. All the applicable documentation 15
was completed by that coroner. 16
In the instances of Afghanistan 17
the coroner does not recognize the skills and 18
experiences in that nation. Therefore, we 19
transport all evidence and all items back to 20
Canada where the Ontario coroner does his duties 21
here. 22
MR. FREIMAN: All right. But 23
we're not talking about issues of investigation of 24
the sudden death. 25
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SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 1
MR. FREIMAN: At the moment we're 2
talking about the military saying it will accept 3
instructions from someone -- 4
SGT SHANNON: Yes. 5
MR. FREIMAN: -- as to what to 6
do -- 7
SGT SHANNON: If you look at the 8
regulation that's related to that, sir -- 9
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 10
SGT SHANNON: -- it says the 11
Commanding Officer will receive the requests from 12
a family. The family is the one that decides the 13
funeral. 14
We have had a number of situations 15
where the family of a fallen hero has absolutely 16
declined any involvement in the military in the 17
final remembrance of their family member and the 18
military is not involved in any way, shape or 19
form -- 20
MR. FREIMAN: Right. 21
SGT SHANNON: -- because that is 22
the wish of the family. 23
So in this case the family which 24
is Ms Hamilton-Tree, because she was the spouse, 25
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had received communications from Mrs. Fynes, had 1
reached a consensus agreement with Mrs. Fynes on 2
how the family was -- how the funeral service was 3
to transpire. 4
Mrs. Fynes is the one that 5
recommended that the final in church should be in 6
Victoria. 7
A compromise between the family 8
was reached. That compromise was communicated to 9
the military through the Assisting Officer and the 10
wishes of the family were carried out. 11
MR. FREIMAN: You've used the word 12
family a couple of times in your last explanation. 13
Do I understand that you believe that where the 14
word family is used in the various regulations 15
that means the spouse? 16
SGT SHANNON: There is no 17
reference to family in the regulations, sir. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Or in the guides? 19
SGT SHANNON: In the guide that 20
goes back to your initial question, the role of 21
the executor. So in the guide that's available to 22
members of the Canadian Forces it says in an ideal 23
circumstance the executor will consult with the 24
family and respect the wishes of the family. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: All right. Well, 1
let's just break that down. 2
Can you turn up the passage and 3
show me where it says in an ideal circumstance? 4
SGT SHANNON: I believe -- I can't 5
be certain but I believe it's in the Officers 6
Guide, the Assisting Officers Guide; the 7
Commanding Officers Guide. 8
MR. FREIMAN: Let's just find 9
that. 10
--- Pause 11
MR. FREIMAN: Is the Assisting 12
Officers Guide listed in the relevant documents? 13
SGT SHANNON: The ones that I 14
identified, sir? 15
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 16
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 17
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So why are we 18
looking at that if it's not relevant? 19
SGT SHANNON: Because if you look 20
at the investigation assessment, sir. 21
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 22
SGT SHANNON: Under paragraph 6, 23
subparagraph (g): 24
"Did the Assisting Officer 25
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Guide, the Commanding Officer 1
Guide and the Death and 2
Disability Benefits programs 3
and services, publications 4
exist in March 2008?" 5
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So where do 6
we find the answer to that question? 7
SGT SHANNON: So in my interview 8
or in not my interview but the interview that was 9
conducted with Lieutenant-Commander Gendron that 10
was the reason for interviewing him because he is 11
the creator of those guides. That is why we went 12
and spoke to him. 13
MR. FREIMAN: He is the creator of 14
those guides? 15
SGT SHANNON: He is the one that 16
put them together, like created. They did not 17
exist prior to 2004. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Do we find this 19
somewhere in this interview? I must have missed 20
it. 21
SGT SHANNON: I believe that he is 22
the one that states -- he states in his interview 23
that his department, and he is the head of his 24
department, they created these guides in response 25
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to the large number of casualties that resulted 1
from the Afghan conflict. 2
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 3
SGT SHANNON: And prior to the 4
first publication of these guides they did not 5
exist and they were created in response to 6
requests from the chain in command for such a 7
reference. 8
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So where do 9
we find the answer to number (g) in your -- I know 10
you say that it's based on an interview. Do we 11
find the answer somewhere in this GO file? 12
SGT SHANNON: Yes. 13
MR. FREIMAN: Where? 14
SGT SHANNON: In the interview 15
with Lieutenant-Colonel Gendron. He stated that 16
these guides existed in 2008. 17
And that goes to the state of mind 18
of the individuals in question which directly 19
links to the elements of the offence for negligent 20
performance of a military duty. 21
MR. FREIMAN: And you think if we 22
look at the Assisting Officer Guide -- 23
SGT SHANNON: I'm just speaking 24
off the top of my head, sir. I believe when I 25
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read these guides and, of course, it's been four 1
years or not four years but it's been two years, I 2
believe that reference is made when it speaks to 3
the role and duty of executor. 4
I would have to read them again to 5
confirm but it does stick in my brain as being 6
there. 7
MR. FREIMAN: And you think that 8
it contains the word "in an ideal situation"? 9
SGT SHANNON: Yes, because in any 10
situation the executor of the estate can override 11
the family any time he chooses. But in a real 12
world situation if I appoint -- like in my 13
personal circumstances if I was to appoint a law 14
firm to be my executor because I'm single, I would 15
expect that my wishes that I had expressed to my 16
executor and that my executor would consult with 17
my surviving family prior to making any decisions. 18
And again, it has no bearing on 19
the role of the Canadian Forces. The issue of 20
burial is strictly a family matter. 21
MR. FREIMAN: And I guess we're 22
just going around in circles but you still don't 23
accept that the Canadian Forces had any role 24
whatsoever in determining who would have the final 25
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say on those matters? 1
SGT SHANNON: Our society 2
determines who the family representative would be, 3
which is the spouse based on our customs. 4
If you go and speak to a married 5
person they have a spouse. If you have issues 6
with that family and something happens to the 7
husband you're not going to go and try to find his 8
parents. The spouse is right there. 9
And if you look at the 10
circumstances of this case, Mrs. Hamilton-Tree was 11
in Edmonton doing all the work that was required 12
to plan the final remembrance of Corporal 13
Langridge. Mrs. Fynes -- 14
MR. FREIMAN: Let me just be clear 15
with you. I'm not interested at the moment and 16
I'm making no judgment and no comment on whether 17
this was a good idea whether she was the best 18
person to make the decisions, whether she 19
understood Stuart better than anyone else. 20
SGT SHANNON: She is the only 21
person to make the decisions, sir. She was the 22
spouse, nobody else. 23
MR. FREIMAN: But haven't we 24
agreed the only person who makes the decision 25
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ultimately is the executor? 1
SGT SHANNON: Yes, and the 2
executor was appointed and he did not change the 3
direction that was given. 4
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. And in your 5
view it is entirely irrelevant that the Canadian 6
Forces did not ask the executor or there is no 7
record of the Canadian Forces ever contacting the 8
executor at the funeral? 9
SGT SHANNON: It's not their duty, 10
sir. They received guidance and a request from Ms 11
Hamilton-Tree, the spouse of Corporal Langridge. 12
This is the wishes of the family on "What we would 13
like to do for the funeral". 14
And the military responded in 15
accordance with the available orders and 16
regulation that define funerals. 17
THE CHAIRPERSON: If everybody 18
could just stay in their place for a minute, could 19
I ask Michael to -- Colonel Drapeau has been gone 20
for an unusually long time and I'm a little 21
concerned. 22
MR. FREIMAN: He's not coming 23
back. 24
MS RICHARDS: He had to leave. 25
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THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, thank you. 1
I was a little worried because if he was going 2
somewhere else then -- thank you. 3
MR. JUNEAU: Sorry, Mr. Chair. He 4
had a previous engagement. 5
MR. FREIMAN: I apologize, sir. 6
Colonel Drapeau told me he wasn't going to be here 7
and I -- 8
THE CHAIRPERSON: I was sending 9
somebody to check. Okay, I apologize for 10
interrupting but -- 11
MS RICHARDS: It's nice to know 12
you are looking out for us. 13
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 14
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. And I think 15
I've asked you this again and I apologize if I 16
have, but if I haven't I'll stay awake all night 17
because I didn't. 18
In your view, family as it is used 19
in various documents by the Canadian Forces, has 20
the same meaning as next of kin which is 21
practically the spouse? 22
SGT SHANNON: I believe if you -- 23
there are a number of policy references to 24
providing some guidance on the topic of the 25
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selection of next of kin. 1
So for instance if you were to 2
refer to the CFAO that guides the purpose of the 3
PEN form -- and I believe it's actually on the 4
back of the PEN form as well -- there is some 5
recommendation, some suggestions on the manner in 6
which next of kin should be selected for the 7
purpose of that form. 8
In the Commanding Officer's Guide 9
and the Assisting Officer's Guide there is similar 10
suggestions or examples on who could be considered 11
next of kin. There is -- again, I have not been 12
able to identify any definitive clear-cut, this is 13
how you do it; this is who it will be, because 14
it's a family issue. It is too flexible. It is 15
too fluid. Circumstances change. 16
As we have seen, Corporal 17
Langridge signed his will in 2002 and some period 18
of time had passed without any changes. 19
There are many circumstances where 20
people pass away and their documents are not up to 21
date overtime. And that creates confusion and 22
conflict and issues and that's why we have the 23
probate system for dealing with those types of 24
situations because it's recognized that when 25
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people pass away they may not have had their 1
affairs in order. 2
Corporal Langridge had his affairs 3
in order as much as he deemed to be necessary. He 4
had a valid will. He was in a common-law 5
relationship. He had decided who the beneficiary 6
of his death benefit was to be. He had decided 7
who the beneficiary of his estate was to be. He 8
had decided who his executor was to be. 9
All those facts are clear, on the 10
record, undisputable. 11
MR. FREIMAN: Wait a minute. 12
Aren't they disputable? 13
There are a number of documents 14
that were discovered after the death but before 15
the funeral that may be open to interpretation, 16
but one interpretation is that at some point in 17
2008 there was a sea change in Corporal 18
Langridge's views and he went about, perhaps not 19
all that elegantly and not all that well, but he 20
went about giving some indication that he changed 21
his mind. 22
SGT SHANNON: But as we've already 23
discussed, I determined that the relevant time for 24
the element of the offence for the initial 25
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investigation for next of kin was 15 March to the 1
18th of March. Those are the three days where 2
members of the Canadian Forces had demonstrated 3
conduct that could apply to the offence of 4
negligent performance of a military duty. 5
And again, the decisions they made 6
and the actions they took in those three days were 7
based on the information they had available to 8
them at that time. 9
I cannot go and second-guess the 10
future, so I have to be able to focus my 11
investigative efforts to a specific clear window 12
of time and assess the conduct and the behaviour 13
and the actions of those individuals and assess 14
them in a logical, impassionate, impartial way 15
against the elements of the offence. 16
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. Well, let me 17
just suggest something to you. 18
If -- and I'm not saying that they 19
do but I just want to test your assumption about 20
the relevant timeline. If there was something that 21
was faulty in the behaviour that you've 22
characterized as being capable of constituting an 23
element of the offence of negligent performance 24
that you locate between the 15th and the 18th of 25
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March, if subsequent to the 18th of March new 1
information emerged that demonstrated that any of 2
those actions may have been in error, would it not 3
also be capable of constituting an offence if one 4
failed to correct that error while there was still 5
time? 6
SGT SHANNON: That assumption is 7
possible and that would require investigation. 8
However, based on my understanding of all the 9
information available and that was available to 10
me, that is not the case in this matter. The 11
documents that were found had absolutely no 12
bearing on the fact that Corporal Langridge was in 13
a common-law relationship at the time of his 14
passing. 15
MR. FREIMAN: But they did have a 16
bearing on who his executor was. 17
SGT SHANNON: That's correct. 18
MR. FREIMAN: And therefore, even 19
on your -- 20
SGT SHANNON: But I would caution 21
you there, sir, because the initial executor of 22
the estate, Mr. Wight, was the executor or record 23
on the day Corporal Langridge was laid to rest. 24
He accepted his role as the executor of the 25
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estate. 1
MR. FREIMAN: How do you know 2
that? 3
SGT SHANNON: Because it's on the 4
record, sir. 5
MR. FREIMAN: Where is it on the 6
record that Mr. Wight accepted his role as 7
executor of the estate? 8
SGT SHANNON: It was evidence 9
before this Commission, sir. 10
MR. FREIMAN: Where? 11
SGT SHANNON: I believe the man 12
from the casualty coordination office in Ottawa 13
testified to that fact. 14
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. I'll examine 15
the record. I think I was here that day and I 16
don't remember that testimony, but don't go by 17
that because there's lots of things that happened 18
this morning that I don't remember. 19
SGT SHANNON: I believe there's 20
signed documentation by Mr. Wight that he accepted 21
his role as executor of the estate. 22
MR. FREIMAN: Whose role is it to 23
pass on the validity of a will? 24
SGT SHANNON: Whose role is it to 25
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make that decision? 1
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 2
SGT SHANNON: That would be the 3
role of the court, sir. 4
MR. FREIMAN: Is it the role of 5
the military to determine the validity of a will? 6
SGT SHANNON: No, sir, and they 7
did not in this case. 8
MR. FREIMAN: Are you sure about 9
that? 10
SGT SHANNON: At the time of 11
passing the protocols are, within the casualty 12
administration rules and regulations, that all 13
documentation is forwarded to the branch of the 14
federal government in Ottawa that manages and 15
deals with affairs of a fallen soldier and it is 16
that office that coordinates all subsequent 17
actions related to the estate of the member. 18
MR. FREIMAN: That's an office 19
that is part of the military? 20
SGT SHANNON: I'm not sure. It's 21
a civilian office. They're civilian employees, 22
sir. So they could be part of the Department of 23
National Defence, that's correct. 24
MR. FREIMAN: The evidence that we 25
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heard was the Director by statute had to be a 1
member of the Judge Advocate General. 2
SGT SHANNON: I'm not questioning 3
that, sir, but again, when you take -- that has no 4
bearing on the decisions made by the command team 5
between the 15th and the 18th. 6
MR. FREIMAN: I'm just asking 7
whether the military has a role in deciding the 8
validity of a will. 9
SGT SHANNON: You would have to 10
talk to those people, sir. 11
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So that's not 12
part of your sphere of competence? 13
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 14
MR. FREIMAN: And I'm not 15
suggesting that it should be. 16
All right. Shall we then look at 17
the documents that you thought were relevant to 18
your assessment, and I think we can find this -- 19
is it better that we look at the investigative 20
assessment or the investigative plan? 21
SGT SHANNON: Well, if you want to 22
look at the documents themselves or do you want to 23
look at the summary? 24
MR. FREIMAN: Well, we'll start 25
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with the summary and maybe look at the documents. 1
SGT SHANNON: So if you look at 2
the investigation assessment that would be the 3
clearest identification of the information you 4
want. 5
MR. FREIMAN: And that's at page 6
224 and following? 7
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 8
MR. FREIMAN: Yeah. And the 9
actual documents that you list here -- 10
SGT SHANNON: So -- 11
MR. FREIMAN: Go ahead. 12
SGT SHANNON: So paragraph 3 -- or 13
paragraph 4, I'm sorry -- 14
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 15
SGT SHANNON: -- that -- those 16
from A to T, that is the information that I drew 17
from the Summary Investigation Report. Those are 18
the only documents that I took from that 19
comprehensive investigation file. 20
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 21
SGT SHANNON: And then paragraph 5 22
further identifies my independent evaluation of 23
rules, regulations, policies of the Canadian 24
Forces -- 25
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MR. FREIMAN: All right. 1
SGT SHANNON: -- as they relate to 2
the documents I identified. 3
MR. FREIMAN: So before we look at 4
them in any detail, can you tell me what the 5
question was that you asked yourself to which 6
these documents, especially the statutory 7
instruments or the regulatory instruments or the 8
orders and policy documents, to what question do 9
they respond? 10
SGT SHANNON: For the 11
investigation assessment or the overall 12
investigation? 13
MR. FREIMAN: Well, is there a 14
difference? 15
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 16
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. So tell me 17
for each. 18
SGT SHANNON: So for the overall 19
investigation there was -- as I've stated, I'm not 20
at this -- by the time I concluded there was three 21
allegations that I was looking into. 22
This particular document only 23
focuses on the next of kin issue, because by the 24
time I had done this I had already determined that 25
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the allegation against Lieutenant-Colonel King was 1
unfounded. 2
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 3
SGT SHANNON: So this is solely 4
focused on the next of kin issue. 5
MR. FREIMAN: Next of kin but two 6
versions of it, one next of kin in its simple form 7
and the other, authority to plan the funeral? 8
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 9
MR. FREIMAN: No? What's -- 10
SGT SHANNON: This is solely 11
related to the issue -- the allegation that Major 12
Lubiniecki appointed Miss Hamilton-Tree as the 13
common-law spouse without documentation stating 14
so. 15
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. Well, again, 16
and so the funeral allegations come later? 17
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 18
MR. FREIMAN: All right. And 19
again, for your purposes, an allegation that 20
Captain Lubiniecki as he then was wrongfully 21
appointed Miss Hamilton-Tree as common-law spouse 22
is the same thing as an allegation that he 23
wrongfully appointed her as next of kin? 24
SGT SHANNON: They're the same 25
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thing, sir. Next of kin equals spouse in this 1
case. There is no defining them -- there's no 2
separating them. Next of kin equals spouse. 3
MR. FREIMAN: And you've told us 4
all the bases upon which you relied for that 5
assessment? 6
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir. 7
MR. FREIMAN: Let me just ask you 8
then before I turn briefly to the allegations 9
against Lieutenant-Colonel King. 10
You told us that next of kin 11
changes in accordance with the context; is that 12
right? 13
SGT SHANNON: The customs of our 14
society. 15
MR. FREIMAN: Customs of society. 16
SGT SHANNON: Yes. 17
MR. FREIMAN: So which customs 18
does the Canadian Forces look to? 19
SGT SHANNON: They don't. They 20
rely on each individual member of the Canadian 21
Forces to provide administrative documentation to 22
the care and control of the Canadian Forces on 23
their personal file. 24
Each member identifies, according 25
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to regulation, their personal and unique 1
situation: whether they are married, whether they 2
are common-law, whether they have dependent 3
children. 4
And you have to realize as well 5
that these regulations when it comes to a 6
common-law spouse only apply to the rules and 7
regulations and financial benefits available to 8
the Canadian Forces and to a member of the 9
Canadian Forces. 10
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 11
SGT SHANNON: They exist to be 12
able -- to enable a member of the Canadian Forces 13
to support and gain access to financial tools to 14
be able to support their family. So they do not 15
have any bearing or apply outside the realm of the 16
Canadian Forces. 17
MR. FREIMAN: All right. But the 18
question that I was going to ask you is based on 19
your assessment that next of kin equals common-law 20
spouse. 21
SGT SHANNON: No, no. It was the 22
other way around, sir. 23
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 24
Common-law spouse -- 25
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SGT SHANNON: Common-law spouse 1
equals spouse equals next of kin. 2
MR. FREIMAN: And does it work 3
backwards if next of kin equals spouse? 4
SGT SHANNON: If the person is 5
married, yes, sir. 6
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 7
SGT SHANNON: If the person is in 8
a legally binding state of marriage, whether it be 9
a traditional marriage or a common-law marriage -- 10
MR. FREIMAN: Or same-sex 11
marriage. 12
SGT SHANNON: -- or same-sex 13
marriage, so spouse equals next of kin. 14
In my situation I am single. So 15
by the customs of our society my father is my next 16
of kin. Next in line is my mother. There is no 17
doubting that. Nobody in the Canadian Forces -- 18
or if something happened to me nobody is going to 19
call anybody except my father because in our 20
customs that is who my next of kin is. 21
MR. FREIMAN: And the question 22
that I had is what is the relevant definition of 23
the society whose customs are looked at when we 24
say our customs, our traditions? 25
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SGT SHANNON: Yes. 1
MR. FREIMAN: What is that? 2
SGT SHANNON: It's undefinable, 3
sir. There's no -- I can't take this piece of 4
paper and say this is it because it doesn't exist. 5
MR. FREIMAN: Well, let me put the 6
situation to you in its starkest. 7
There is considerable controversy, 8
which you will agree, within society as to the 9
role and the legitimacy of certain relationships 10
in terms of their qualification for family status? 11
SGT SHANNON: I agree with that, 12
sir, but again, that has no bearing or role on the 13
actions of the Canadian Forces. 14
MR. FREIMAN: Well, bear with me 15
for a moment. 16
And among those relationships, 17
about which there is considerable controversy, is, 18
one, same-sex marriage -- 19
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 20
MR. FREIMAN: -- and, two, 21
irregular marriages, that is marriages that are 22
not sanctified by religious rites or are not 23
recorded in the normal form for marriage -- 24
SGT SHANNON: Yeah. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: -- that is, 1
registration with municipal authorities, and there 2
are different views as to whether those sorts of 3
relationships -- and we'll just deal with 4
common-law relationships -- are in fact true 5
family relationships. 6
SGT SHANNON: The courts have held 7
that they are, so I don't see the point of this 8
line of questioning. 9
MR. FREIMAN: Well, bear with me 10
for a moment. 11
You've told us that -- 12
THE CHAIRPERSON: One sec. 13
Just to be clear, somebody else 14
will determine whether or not -- 15
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 16
THE CHAIRPERSON: -- if you don't 17
mind. Thank you. 18
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 19
MR. FREIMAN: I'm used to being 20
told that I'm irrelevant. 21
You've told us that there is no 22
place that you can go to that's going to give you 23
a definitive definition of next of kin? 24
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: And you've told us 1
that in your view the traditions of our culture, 2
of our society -- I think you used both terms -- 3
govern the question of what constitutes next of 4
kin? 5
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 6
MR. FREIMAN: And from your 7
reading of those traditions you have deduced that 8
it must be the spouse? 9
SGT SHANNON: That is the logic of 10
our society, sir. 11
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. And you have 12
included in that definition of spouse common-law 13
spouse? 14
SGT SHANNON: They are one and the 15
same. There is no -- in my mind, sir, there is no 16
difference and in the Canadian Forces there is no 17
difference. If I am married before the church and 18
I deliver a marriage certificate from the Province 19
of Alberta to the Canadian Forces I am eligible to 20
access the same financial benefits for my spouse 21
as I would if I went into a statutory declaration 22
that I was common-law. 23
MR. FREIMAN: I understand that. 24
SGT SHANNON: So I -- as far as 25
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the Canadian Forces is concerned, they do not 1
differentiate between marriage by church or by a 2
justice of the peace or by a common-law statutory 3
declaration by the Commanding Officer. 4
MR. FREIMAN: Correct. 5
SGT SHANNON: So the person 6
receives the same benefits. So in my mind there 7
is no difference if I'm going to be calling my 8
friend's wife his spouse whether they were married 9
in a church or they were declared common-law by 10
their Commanding Officer. As far as I'm 11
concerned, she is his spouse. I'm not going to 12
say, how is your common-law spouse today? 13
MR. FREIMAN: Yeah, I understand 14
what you're saying but bear with me again for a 15
moment. 16
You've said that the equation next 17
of kin equals spouse -- 18
SGT SHANNON: If a spouse exists 19
in the family relationship. 20
MR. FREIMAN: If a spouse 21
exists -- 22
SGT SHANNON: Yes. 23
MR. FREIMAN: -- next of kin 24
equals spouse is based on our tradition? 25
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SGT SHANNON: Yes, and I can 1
foresee no circumstance where anybody -- any other 2
family member would take precedence over your 3
spouse. 4
MR. FREIMAN: Well, is it not the 5
case that in the Province of Alberta any other 6
member of Stuart Langridge's family would have 7
taken precedence over Rebecca Hamilton-Tree 8
regardless of what her status was for purposes of 9
benefits afforded by the Canadian Forces? 10
SGT SHANNON: That may be true, 11
sir, but I have no jurisdiction or no interest in 12
provincial law and it has no bearing on the 13
actions or conduct of members of the Canadian 14
Forces. 15
MR. FREIMAN: Are you saying then 16
that in the way that the Canadian Forces deals 17
with members' estates, whether military estate or 18
civil estate, and deals with issues of funerals 19
and how they are to be conducted, burials and how 20
they are to be conducted, that provincial law is 21
of no relevance? 22
SGT SHANNON: No relevance to this 23
investigation. 24
MR. FREIMAN: How did you 25
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determine that? 1
SGT SHANNON: There is no ability 2
for a provincial statute to guide the actions of 3
the Canadian Forces. So if you take -- yeah, 4
especially as it relates to this investigation. 5
So if you take the conduct and the actions that 6
were taken in that three-day period of time, 7
provincial law has no bearing on the 8
decision-making that was done. 9
So as we've stated already, they 10
made an evaluation of the available administrative 11
documents on the file of Corporal Langridge, the 12
information that was provided solely by Corporal 13
Langridge. That document review determined that 14
Corporal Langridge wished to enter into a 15
common-law marriage with Miss Hamilton-Tree. He 16
took no steps to end that relationship prior to 17
his passing. 18
Subsequent to recognizing and 19
supporting the wishes of Stuart Langridge that he 20
was indeed common-law with Miss Hamilton-Tree, the 21
members of the Canadian Forces within the Lord 22
Strathcona Horse received and supported the 23
requests of the family on how the family wished 24
the funeral to be conducted. 25
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The military did not suggest or 1
dictate or provide any recommendations on how the 2
funeral was to be conducted. Those decisions were 3
made entirely by the members of Stuart Langridge's 4
family, nobody else. 5
MR. FREIMAN: All right. I was 6
going to do this later but I think we'll save an 7
awful lot of time. 8
Can you please open up Tab 31 of 9
the Book of Documents? 10
--- Pause 11
MR. FREIMAN: I wasn't going to 12
deal with this at the moment because this isn't a 13
policy or a document that you identified at any 14
point in your investigation. 15
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 16
MR. FREIMAN: Are you familiar 17
with this particular document? 18
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 19
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 20
Can you turn to page 2 of 9? 21
All right, let's take this number 22
1 of the first page, not the second page. I've 23
gotten us too far into it. The chapter is 24
entitled "Responsibilities for Service, Estates 25
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and Personal Belongings," and it's DAOD 7011-1. 1
And just for us civilians, what do 2
you understand DAOD to stand for? 3
SGT SHANNON: DAOD stands for 4
Defence Administrative Order and Directive. 5
So the DAODs are -- we're in the 6
process of policy renewal within the Canadian 7
Forces. So the Canadian Forces Administrative 8
Orders, also referred to as CFAOs, were the 9
original body of administrative orders and 10
regulations that guided the Canadian Forces for 11
the past 30 years. 12
So within the Canadian Forces 13
there is a transformation process where CFAOs are 14
being replaced by DAODs. So that is why we had 15
some confusion between the two policy regulations 16
on common-law relationships, which I'm sure we'll 17
be discussing. 18
So as a CFAO is replaced, it is 19
cancelled and the DAOD becomes the new regulations 20
that guide the Canadian Forces for administrative 21
purposes. 22
The difference between a CFAO and 23
a DAOD -- 24
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 25
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SGT SHANNON: -- is a CFAO only 1
applied to members of the Canadian Forces that 2
were subject to the Code of Service Discipline -- 3
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 4
SGT SHANNON: -- whereas a DAOD 5
applies to both military members and civilian 6
employees of the Department of National Defence. 7
MR. FREIMAN: All right. But 8
there's no dispute between us, is there, that this 9
is a binding policy document? 10
SGT SHANNON: As it's noted here, 11
sir, it became effective on November 21st, 2007. 12
MR. FREIMAN: So it would have 13
been in effect and valid at the date of Stuart 14
Langridge's death? 15
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 16
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 17
So let me read under the heading 18
"Responsibilities on the Death of a CF Member - 19
Commanding Officer." 20
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 21
MR. FREIMAN: 22
"When a CF member dies the 23
Commanding Officer (CO) 24
shall:" 25
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And the first bullet point is: 1
"take immediate action as 2
required to ensure that all 3
personal or movable property 4
forming part of the service 5
estate that is found on the 6
deceased person or in 7
quarters or otherwise in the 8
care or custody of the CF is 9
collected and safeguarded;" 10
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 11
MR. FREIMAN: That's easy enough. 12
Two: 13
"not take the action in 14
respect of any personal or 15
movable property located in 16
family living accommodation 17
or already in the care and 18
custody of the next of kin, 19
executor or liquidator of the 20
succession unless in the 21
opinion of the Director of 22
Estates National Defence 23
Headquarters the 24
circumstances make such 25
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action necessary for its 1
safekeeping;" 2
That's also pretty easy. 3
SGT SHANNON: M'hmm. 4
MR. FREIMAN: We don't have a 5
definition here of "next of kin," do we? 6
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. As I've 7
explained, I was not able to find any conclusive 8
definition of "next of kin." 9
MR. FREIMAN: Next: 10
"appoint a Committee of 11
Adjustment (COA) within 48 12
hours of the death;" 13
Also not problematic. 14
Next: 15
"ensure the Record Support 16
Unit (URS) promptly forwards 17
to the Director of Estates 18
any will or will certificate 19
held in custody for the 20
deceased or if no will or 21
will certificate is held a 22
statement to that effect;" 23
Also not an issue. 24
Next: 25
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"advise the Director of 1
Estates of the name and 2
telephone number of the 3
Assisting Officer designated 4
to assist the next of kin, 5
executor or liquidator of 6
succession;" 7
Again, not problematic but we 8
still don't know what "next of kin" means. 9
SGT SHANNON: Correct, sir. 10
MR. FREIMAN: Next: 11
"report any deviation from 12
this DAOD promptly to the 13
Director of Estates;" 14
Also nothing. 15
Next: 16
"The executor or liquidator 17
of the succession..." 18
And as I understand it "liquidator 19
of the succession" is a civil law term that is 20
specific to the Province of Quebec, so we don't 21
have to worry about that. 22
SGT SHANNON: Correct. 23
MR. FREIMAN: Take that out -- 24
still don't know what next of kin means. 25
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MS RICHARDS: Sorry. I'm sorry to 1
interrupt, but the way you are reading those, Mr. 2
Freiman, you started with the direction that this 3
is what the Commanding Officer shall do. 4
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 5
MS RICHARDS: The portion that you 6
are moving on to is not part of that paragraph. 7
MR. FREIMAN: Fine. 8
MS RICHARDS: And I just wanted to 9
be clear the way you read -- left that. 10
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. There's a new 11
paragraph now, it's still -- 12
THE CHAIRPERSON: After the bullet 13
points. 14
MR. FREIMAN: After the bullet 15
points. 16
MS RICHARDS: That's correct. 17
Just when you said "next" I just wanted to be 18
clear. 19
MR. FREIMAN: It's still under the 20
Chapter heading Commanding Officer, for better or 21
for worse. 22
A separate paragraph with no 23
bullet points: 24
"The executor..." 25
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I'm going to take out "liquidator 1
of the succession". 2
"The executor ... named in a 3
will is, subject to 4
provincial law, entitled to 5
the custody of the remains. 6
The executor or liquidator of 7
the succession is not 8
necessarily the deceased's 9
next of kin. For meaning of 10
'next of kin' see the context 11
block of DAOD 7011-0 'Service 12
Estates and Personal 13
Belongings'." (As read) 14
And I want to review with you a 15
couple of things in this particular paragraph. 16
My reading of this paragraph, sir, 17
is that where there is a reference to executor 18
of -- sorry, that "subject to provincial law" -- 19
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 20
MR. FREIMAN: -- this particular 21
notation states that it is the executor who is 22
entitled to the custody of the remains. 23
SGT SHANNON: That's correct, sir, 24
and we have already agreed to that before. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: And the executor, as 1
being entitled to the custody of remains -- 2
SGT SHANNON: Subject to 3
provincial law, yes. 4
MR. FREIMAN: -- is subject to 5
provincial law. 6
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 7
MR. FREIMAN: And is it the 8
executor, the identity of the executor that is 9
subject to provincial law or is it the entitlement 10
to custody of the remains is subject to -- 11
SGT SHANNON: The duties of the 12
executor are defined by provincial law, one of 13
which is the disposition of the person based on 14
their wishes, which could be identified in the 15
Will, say cremation versus full burial. 16
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. And in this 17
case a decision was made about cremation versus 18
full burial and we have heard that there was some 19
discussion as to which of the two. 20
SGT SHANNON: Yes. There was 21
negotiation between Mrs. Fynes and Ms 22
Hamilton-Tree. 23
MR. FREIMAN: And, whatever else, 24
it wasn't made by the executor? 25
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SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 1
MR. FREIMAN: And is it correct 2
also that provincial law here is put into a 3
context that is relevant to what -- 4
SGT SHANNON: But it has no -- 5
MR. FREIMAN: -- to what the 6
Canadian Forces -- 7
SGT SHANNON: But again, it has no 8
bearing, sir, on the substance of my 9
investigation. I wasn't investigating this 10
matter. I was investigating next of kin -- 11
MR. FREIMAN: Weren't -- 12
SGT SHANNON: -- and nothing else. 13
MR. FREIMAN: Well, at the 14
beginning you were investigating next of kin and 15
nothing else, which you interpreted as common-law, 16
but by November the 1st you were investigating, 17
were you not, who was entitled to make decisions 18
about the funeral or about the burial? 19
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. The 20
invest -- the allegation that was made by Mrs. 21
Fynes on national television was that the military 22
let somebody else plan her son's funeral which, if 23
proven to be true, could constitute an offence of 24
negligent performance of military duty. That was 25
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the third allegation that I added, that the 1
military let somebody else but her plan her son's 2
funeral. 3
MR. FREIMAN: Well, isn't the 4
funeral an aspect of custody of the remains? 5
SGT SHANNON: That would be 6
something for somebody with knowledge of those 7
laws to address. 8
MR. FREIMAN: But if it is an 9
aspect of custody of the remains, doesn't this 10
particular section make it clear that it is 11
provincial law that governs this entire issue? 12
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. And 13
again, if you look at this regulation it places 14
the responsibility on the Director of Estates, not 15
the Commanding Officer of the Lord Strathcona 16
Horse. 17
The Commanding Officer of the Lord 18
Strathcona Horse has a huge amount of 19
responsibility, this this is not part of his 20
responsibility. The order transfers the 21
responsibility to the Director of Estates and I 22
believe that's how everything was dealt with 23
regarding the service estate for this matter. 24
All the forms were sent to Ottawa, 25
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the Will was sent to Ottawa, Ottawa took over the 1
admin -- the casualty administration. The duties 2
of -- the duties that fall on the hands of the 3
Commanding Officer are clearly defined by 4
regulation. This regulation would not apply 5
because it specifically transfers responsibility 6
to the Director of Estates. 7
So the duties of the Commanding 8
Officer ends at the end of the bullet. That next 9
paragraph, the Commanding Officer is no longer 10
responsible. His duties are clearly defined by 11
the orders for casualty notification. So when 12
I -- 13
MR. FREIMAN: Are you saying that 14
it's the Director of Estates who should have been 15
responsible for ensuring that the proper person 16
was making the decisions? 17
SGT SHANNON: No, it's the person 18
whose responsibility it is to make sure that he 19
makes the proper decisions. I can't tell you or 20
guide you in how you make decisions. 21
MR. FREIMAN: No. 22
SGT SHANNON: If you become aware 23
of a decision that you have, it's your 24
responsibility to execute those responsibilities. 25
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If you fail to execute your responsibilities the 1
next person capable of doing it obviously has to 2
step in. If Mr. Wight was not there, was not 3
interacting with the family between the 15th of 4
March and the day of the funeral, that is nobody's 5
responsibility within the Canadian Forces, that is 6
a family issue. 7
MR. FREIMAN: Is your answer still 8
the same in light of the fact no one appears to 9
have asked Mr. Wight to discharge any 10
responsibilities vis-à-vis the funeral, but they 11
did inform Ms Hamilton-Tree that she had some 12
authority, or you don't agree with that? 13
MS RICHARDS: I just want to be 14
clear on the record and I don't want to give 15
evidence, but perhaps your -- just to rephrase 16
your question, I believe your question would be 17
nobody within the Canadian Forces -- 18
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 19
MS RICHARDS: -- asked, because 20
there is evidence regarding other individuals 21
before this Commission. 22
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Freiman...? 23
SGT SHANNON: My response to that, 24
sir, would be that nobody in the -- no member of 25
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the Canadian Forces that was the subject of my 1
investigation, I would not ever even hypothesize 2
that it would be their responsibility to ensure 3
that the executor was doing his job appropriately. 4
Again, as we have had a number of conversations, 5
my logical assumption, my first initiative, my 6
first thought in my mind if I had to deal with a 7
friend that had had a problem, my first instinct 8
would be to talk to the spouse and nobody else. 9
MR. FREIMAN: Can we look, then, 10
just briefly -- and then I think we may conclude 11
with this, depending on how long it takes us -- 12
can we look at Tab 95. This is another DAOD and 13
it's the one that was referred to in 7011-1. 14
Now, sir, am I correct that this 15
is also not a document that you turned up in your 16
investigation? 17
SGT SHANNON: I do not -- I 18
believe I do not -- don't think I touched this 19
one. 20
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 21
I'm going to ask you if you have 22
any idea as to how you missed this directive and 23
DOAD 7011-1 in terms -- do you think that 7011-1 24
is at all relevant to any of the matters? 25
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SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 1
MR. FREIMAN: None. 2
SGT SHANNON: No. 3
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 4
So let me ask you if you think 5
this is relevant. It's entitled "Service Estates 6
and Personal Belongings". The third section under 7
the heading "Policy Direction" is entitled 8
"Context". This is the dialogue box that is 9
referred to in 7011-1. 10
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 11
MR. FREIMAN: And it says: 12
"The term 'next of kin' (NOK) 13
normally means a person's 14
spouse, common-law partner, 15
child or parent." (As read) 16
Do you see that? 17
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir 18
MR. FREIMAN: Isn't this a 19
definition -- 20
SGT SHANNON: No, sir. 21
MR. FREIMAN: -- of "next of kin"? 22
SGT SHANNON: I do not believe 23
that you could refer or including the word 24
"normally" in any academic context of definition. 25
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This is an opinion. This is just 1
like we have been talking. "Normally" means it's 2
not conclusive, it's not contextual so I could not 3
say that you could use that as a definition. 4
In all my academic study I have 5
never taken a definition and found the word 6
"normally". A definition is black and white. So 7
I would -- 8
MR. FREIMAN: Doesn't the word 9
"normally" mean unless there is some circumstance 10
to the contrary or some exception? 11
SGT SHANNON: But this is exactly 12
what we have been talking about all afternoon, 13
sir. "Normally", based on the customs of our 14
society, the next of kin is the spouse. If a 15
spouse doesn't exist by marriage under law it's a 16
common-law partner because there is a statutory 17
relationship. If no spouse exists, then a child, 18
if a child exists in that person's world. If not, 19
then the parent. 20
In my case, my next of kin, as we 21
have stated, is my father. That is based on the 22
customs of our society and that is reflected in 23
that first sentence. 24
MR. FREIMAN: Well, I see a 25
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listing of a number of names, I don't see that 1
this is in order of priority, do you? 2
SGT SHANNON: And I have been 3
telling you that all afternoon, that I have not 4
been able to find any document that says this is 5
the order that you follow. Under the provincial 6
law in the Province of Alberta it does have some 7
idea, it says executor, spouse, but that is for 8
specific issues. That is for the issues that that 9
law follows, but there are a whole bunch of laws 10
that that doesn't apply to. 11
So again, there is no substantive 12
definition or process and that is why ultimately 13
it's the decision of a judge to determine who 14
is -- if there is conflict or if somebody is 15
contesting next of kin. That is why it is up to a 16
judge and nobody else. Nobody else can make that 17
legal determination. 18
MR. FREIMAN: And I may just be 19
missing the obvious, but does that mean that in 20
the current case to the extent that there were 21
differences of opinion -- and maybe we are Monday 22
morning quarterback -- 23
SGT SHANNON: If I may be there 24
correct, sir. 25
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MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 1
SGT SHANNON: So as I have 2
outlined my window of time is 15 to 18 of March 3
for the purpose of the next of kin allegation. I 4
am not able to find any reference in a document 5
that says there was any contesting of the fact 6
that Ms Hamilton-Tree was the common-law spouse 7
between the 15th and the 18th. In fact, I was 8
unable to identify any record that there was any 9
issue with a determination of Ms Hamilton-Tree 10
being the common-law spouse up until the very -- I 11
believe the 1st of April is the first reference 12
made by Major Parkinson that Mr. And Mrs. Fynes 13
are considering legal action to contest the 14
marital status. That is the first reference that 15
I know of, 1 April. 16
MR. FREIMAN: So does that mean 17
that because no one at the time contested the 18
decision it is accepted as being accurate and 19
correct. 20
SGT SHANNON: No, I'm not saying 21
that, sir, but when I am assessing the mental 22
state, the mens rea component of the individuals 23
in question, I cannot have -- find any information 24
that would provide me with conclusive evidence 25
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that they had the requisite guilty mind to commit 1
the offence. 2
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. Well, we are 3
way down the road there because you're already 4
now -- 5
SGT SHANNON: There is a direct 6
relationship, sir. It's not way down the road, 7
it's you're always considering the issue of mens 8
rea at every stage of the investigation. 9
MR. FREIMAN: Now, my 10
understanding is that at least in terms of conduct 11
to the prejudice of discipline and good order -- 12
I'm not sure I have the name right -- 13
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. 14
MR. FREIMAN: -- that the mens rea 15
is awareness of the military duty and a failure to 16
follow it. 17
SGT SHANNON: Not for that 18
particular offence, sir. You are still referring 19
to section 124, not 129. 20
MR. FREIMAN: So what is the mens 21
rea for 129? 22
SGT SHANNON: So if you were to 23
turn to the investigation plan -- so that's on 24
page 286, sir, 25
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MR. FREIMAN: Yes. Yes, I'm with 1
you. 2
SGT SHANNON: I'm in the wrong 3
book, sir. Hang on for a moment. 4
--- Pause 5
SGT SHANNON: So paragraph 3 6
identifies the elements of the offence and we have 7
a reference book that's available to us within the 8
National Investigation Service that is an Aide 9
Memoire provided or prepared by the Regional 10
Military Prosecution Service for the Canadian 11
Forces. So it's similar to Gibson's for Criminal 12
Code determination of elements of the offence and 13
I believe we have provided the relevant sections 14
of that Aide Memoire for the two offences under 15
consideration. So if you have concerns on 16
where -- how the elements were identified, it came 17
from that document. 18
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. 19
SGT SHANNON: So the Director of 20
Military Prosecution Service has prepared this 21
document for us and it breaks down the statutory 22
elements of every offence. 23
MR. FREIMAN: Let's look then, at 24
number 4, "Neglect to the prejudice of good order 25
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and discipline". 1
SGT SHANNON: Right. So the final 2
one with the mens rea component comes in is 3
paragraph (e) which is a blameworthy state of mind 4
of the accused. 5
MR. FREIMAN: And what is that -- 6
SGT SHANNON: That is the mens rea 7
component. 8
MR. FREIMAN: Well, what is 9
blameworthy? 10
SGT SHANNON: That they intended 11
to commit the behaviour or the conduct that is 12
subject -- that did prejudice good order and 13
discipline. 14
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 15
I just want to be clear, it's not 16
that they intended to prejudice good order and 17
discipline in the Canadian Forces, it is they 18
intended to do whatever it is that is alleged to 19
have prejudiced good order, discipline in the 20
Forces. 21
MR. FREIMAN: Yes. And then, in 22
addition -- so you have to also establish: Was 23
discipline actually prejudiced. So that's 24
subparagraph (d). So you have to -- as a 25
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component of your investigation you have to have 1
factual information that discipline was negatively 2
impacted based on that person's conduct. 3
SGT SHANNON: And what is the 4
meaning of good order? 5
SGT SHANNON: That is up to the 6
trier of fact. 7
MR. FREIMAN: All right. So it's 8
not just discipline, it's what the trier of fact 9
things is good order. 10
SGT SHANNON: Yes, sir. And 11
that's this -- traditionally this offence 129 is a 12
summary conviction only offence tried by a 13
Commanding Officer at the summary trial level. So 14
its intent is to enforce discipline. So 15
traditionally this would be the charge if I had 16
shown up today and my uniform had been wrinkled or 17
I didn't have an appropriate haircut or my boots 18
weren't shiny or I was five minutes late for work. 19
That is discipline and my conduct has again 20
affected the operations of the Canadian Forces. 21
MR. FREIMAN: Can I suggest that 22
perhaps the meaning of "good order" is conduct 23
that is to the prejudice of good order, is conduct 24
that might bring the military or some portion of 25
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it into disrepute? 1
SGT SHANNON: There is a separate 2
offence for that, sir. Off the top of my head the 3
only phrase where that is used I believe is for 4
the offence of drunkenness, which is section 97(2) 5
where -- no, I'm sorry, 1(b) where it actually 6
does make it an offence to bring -- to discredit 7
Her Majesty The Queen. 8
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 9
Just to wind up with you today, if 10
you look at the DOAD at Tab 95 -- you have already 11
told us that the earlier DOAD at Tab 31 was 12
irrelevant to the matters you are considering. 13
SGT SHANNON: M'hmm. 14
MR. FREIMAN: If you had been 15
aware of it, would the DOAD at Tab 95 have been 16
relevant? 17
SGT SHANNON: It would, sir, but I 18
believe that the information that's there is 19
pretty much exactly what's included in the 20
Assisting Officer's Guide to the Commanding 21
Officer. So there's the Commanding Officer's 22
Guide, the Assisting Officer's Guide, so I believe 23
I spoke about that a bit previously. And the 24
purpose of those guides is to bring together all 25
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the various policies and publications and rules 1
and put it into a quick reference book for laymen 2
like myself to be able to go to assist a family in 3
their time of need. 4
So I have one book, it's all 5
tabbed. I don't know if you have the actual books 6
as exhibits. 7
MR. FREIMAN: I'm sure we have it 8
somewhere. 9
SGT SHANNON: But I believe if you 10
go through there, that same phase is included in 11
that reference guide which I did have access to 12
and which I did consider. 13
MR. FREIMAN: All right. 14
So just as a final point for 15
today, can we at least come to an agreement that 16
although you say next of kin means spouse, this 17
policy direction doesn't follow that definition? 18
SGT SHANNON: It does follow that 19
definition. It says, next of kin is normally the 20
spouse, the common-law spouse, in the absence of a 21
common-law spouse a child and in the -- or a 22
parent. 23
MR. FREIMAN: Where does it say 24
"in the absence of"? 25
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SGT SHANNON: I'm just 1
paraphrasing. 2
MR. FREIMAN: Oh no, you're 3
interpolating. I don't think that's the same as 4
paraphrasing. 5
SGT SHANNON: Well, okay. So if 6
you take out that phrase, but what you're 7
referring to says next of kin equals spouse, 8
equals in -- if it's not a legal spouse in the 9
church it's a common-law, if there is no 10
common-law child or parent. 11
MR. FREIMAN: Again, where does it 12
say if there is no common-law? Where does it say 13
if there is no common-law -- 14
SGT SHANNON: It doesn't say -- 15
those words are not joined by the phrase "and". 16
It says spouse comma, common-law comma, child or 17
parent. 18
MR. FREIMAN: And is that not -- 19
SGT SHANNON: So it's telling you 20
one or the other. The pure evaluation of the 21
English language. "Or" means one or the other, 22
not both. You can't have two. It's using the 23
word "or", not "and". 24
MR. FREIMAN: Well, if I say that 25
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a parent is a mother or a father, does that mean 1
that a parent is a mother and in the absence of a 2
mother it's a father? 3
SGT SHANNON: But that's not the 4
context of how that's written. If you read how 5
that's written it says one or the other. 6
MR. FREIMAN: If I say a family 7
member is a mother, a father or a child, does that 8
mean that if it's a mother -- 9
SGT SHANNON: Well, that's 10
different. 11
MR. FREIMAN: -- if there's no 12
mother it's the father and if there's no father 13
it's the child? 14
SGT SHANNON: But we're not 15
talking -- you're talking eggs and chickens. 16
MR. FREIMAN: I'm talking the 17
English language, sir. 18
SGT SHANNON: But you're talking 19
about eggs and chickens. In the family situation 20
the spouse has priority based on the customs of 21
our society. 22
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. Well, we are 23
back to that, so that's fine. 24
THE CHAIRPERSON: That's your 25
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opinion so we will -- 1
SGT SHANNON: It is my opinion 2
yes, sir. 3
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay. 4
MR. FREIMAN: Okay. I think this 5
is a convenient place to break. 6
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 7
We are adjourned until 9:30 8
tomorrow morning and I think we will be fine for 9
tomorrow. 10
MR. FREIMAN: I'm still fine for 11
tomorrow. 12
THE CHAIRPERSON: I assume that, 13
so I suppose I should note that. 14
MR. FREIMAN: No. I think we have 15
eliminated a number of issues that were of 16
interest to me. 17
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank 18
you. 19
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1637 20
to resume Thursday, September 20, 2012 21
at 0930 / L'audience est ajournée à 1637, 22
pour reprendre le mercredi 20 septembre 2012 23
à 0930 24
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We hereby certify: 1
That the foregoing is a true 2
and correct transcript of the 3
reporting notes and 4
recordings so taken. 5
We further certify that none 6
of the reporting staff is 7
related to or an employee of 8
any attorney or of any of the 9
parties, nor financially 10
interested in the action. 11
We declare that the foregoing 12
is true and correct. 13
14
15
16
17
___________________ 18
Lynda Johansson 19
20
___________________ ______________________ 21
Monique Mahoney Susan Villeneuve 22
23
___________________ ______________________ 24
Karen Paré Beverley Dillabough 25