Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Council

THURSDAY, 4 JULY 1918

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Stamp Act [.f JULY.} Amendment Bill. 709

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

TnrR8D.\Y, 4 Jc:LY, 1918.

Tlw PRE'·IDEXT (Hon. V{. Hamilton) took ·the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

P.\PER.

The foL'o-Y'",·iD<~· paper 'nu: laid on the tab1(', and ordered to b0 printed :-

Regulation undpr th0 Slau•;ht0ring Ad of 1898.

8T.n1P ACT X:UK'\D:.\1E:'\T BILL. REs-:::~IPTrox OF Co~DI!TTEE.

(If on. W. F. T •ylor in the chair.)

Oh cLtus0 37 as aincndcd-'' rlmcndmulf,,;:, ·cf the schcdul< "-

Ho!>. E. \V. H. FO\YLES moved the omis­sion. on lines 46 to 48, page 15, of the \Yards-

" and conyey6.nce duty on the consident­tion paid for the lease, license, and movable chattels included in the trans­action."

ll_c' moved the an;t;ndmcnt in th<:' ab~enc0 of th<' Hon. Mr. O·Shea, and he fdt surn it would commend itself to the wisdom of everv hon. member. It was most unfair to im­poS(> a stamp duty, not merely upon the tran-fer of a lease--which ,., as the thing transfcned-but also upon everv stick and chattel that there might be on the premis"s at the time the lease was transferred. Al­ready on two occasions the Committee had affirmed the principle that stamp duty should only be paid up<_m the thing sold. They had agrPed that 1t Wlluld be a fair thing if a station _were oold, that stamp duty should be pa1d upon the amount received for the station, and not upon every hoof that went with the station. Thev had also de_cided that, if a lease were sold. other thmgs that could be transferred bv deliverv and not by document in connoctio;,_ with the sale should not be subject to stamp duty. Why, then, should the Government under <'over of taxing the transfer of th~ lease propose to ''";akc an impost upon everything on the premises? They might as well pro­pose to levy an impost on the jewellery in tihe rooms of the boardere who were staving in the hotel when th0 transfer took place.

The SECRETARY FOR l\!1!1\ES: I believe in some countries thev arc con1mandeerin0' jewellery for war pi:trposes. "'

Hox. K ·w. H. FOWLES: Thev would have to b0 careful that the Minister: did not start taking the salaric:' of members of the Council. (L".w:-hter.) Th<e proposition that. under cov0r of the transfer of a lease, th" Governn;ent shoulcl ta,- the lease. licencp, and all th, movable chattel wn'-: mo,t cut­rag-eau::-:.

Hon. H. C. JoxEs: Why not?

Hox. E. V•:. H. F'O\YLES : If that were ;hP policy ,,f ihr C0vernmcnt. he·\· br did thf'y int<mJ go:nr'?

I-Ion. G. PAG":-IIAXTFY: Snrc>lv vou do not nbjcct to taxirg •· pubs'" · ·

HoK. E. \\~. H. FO\YLES: There were> Jllt>nty of otht'l' preraiscs that 1vere runlling

under a lea'' r besides licensNl premises. There were several other amendments to be moved, all in the direction of removing un­necessarv impt'dimenb upon ordinary busi­ness. The previous day the Hon. · Mr. Bcirnc showed what obstac!Ps would be placed in the way of business by one of the pro­posals of the Government. He was about to say th>tt it would render business impos­~ible, but, although it would not make it impossible to carry on business, it would necessihtc the emplovment of a whole army of hands. in m·dter that thr Government n,ig·ht collect 10-, duty. If the Government wished to collect duty in that wa;;-, it would be easier to collect 1 per cent. of the total cash ~~tles. He \Ytu not suggesting that the GoYornment should clo that, but it was cer­tainly an easier method of collecting revenuP than the one prol"'''cd by the Bill, and it \vonld involve lf':;s friction in business, and trade would go on ju,,t the Fam<> as f'ver. It was hard enough to c:lrry on trade now, without placing unnecessary re>strictions upon it. The Post Office w;1s choked up; boats "\Vf're choked up \vhcre there 1vere any, arJd all those things made it very difficult to trade ;1t all.

Hon. P. J. LEAJIY: \Vill this apply to the sale of a Loarding-housP?

Ho1\. K \V. H. FOWLES : It would apply to anything with a lea"''·

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: Even if there was a lease for only one> month?

Hox. E. \V. H. FOWLES: There was no time limit at all.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : If there is a tra.nsfer. it should bear stamp duty.

Hon. A. A. DA VEY : \Vhere do vou get that idea from? Do vou propose to tax all trans­actions'?

The SEC'RETARY FOR :YIIXES : All money transactions.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: There would be a tax on everv infant that was born into the world next, a tax on marrying, and a tax on dying. The Minister hRd practically admitted that this Bill was not a measure to impose taxation, but rather to remove inequalities, and stop leakages. In fact, the inference might be drawn that he would be disappoinb cl if it brought in any revenue. However, he felt sure that the Minister would accept this amrndment, which would remove the whole of the objectionable part of the clause. Then a peroon would merely have to pay stamp duty on the amount of money paid for the conveyance of the lease, and no more.

The CHAIRMA:-<: It appears to me that ,,~e 8 :re treading on very dangerous ground in dealing with this amendment.

Hon. P. J. LEAIIY: It is not half a' strong as oomc of the other things we have done.

'The CHAIRiVIAN: I know, but two vTongs do not make a right. In dealing with amcndmc nt. to the eclwdnlc we shall haYe to be careful. Jt ~.ppears to 1ne-in fac~' I <lJTI C'Cl rain-that thig arnendJnent dircdlv in' ·rfncs \Vit.h th0 incidDnce of taxa­tion, n'nd 1t l:as ahv ·Y~ bePn hc~d .u n prin­ciplt"\ in This ( 'h,_,-_nJb€r. aHhcuS':h \Y(' clairn the richt to amend r !I Rills end h""" not yieltl•d up that right al! 'l;;ether: that _wr• should not insist on an10~1drnents 1ntorfcnng ·with the incidenz:t: of taxation.

Hon. P. J. LE',HY: \Ye exerc;"ed that right in 1915.

Hon. W. F. Taylor.]

710 [COUNCIL.]

Tlw a nlenclJuf'!lt cick•n\._ ,~ of t: not 111 (Ji'dL'l'.

We did. but a; this iiJt:"'rr 'rith th0 EJ-

1~tiu11, I Hln~t tl1at it is

Hox. l'. J. L~AHY: lie wi heel to mukc a £ 'V re n1ctrl~s or .:his qnest.ion, and h0 would conclude \Yith a n.._otion to tlisagrce with the Ch_,_jr:tnan':-; ruling. But before he came to that. he harl ··Jme othci· ob>t•rvations to mak · to the Committee.

The SECRJcT.\RY fOR :C.1r:-.ES : You are not in order no>.Y.

Hox. P .• J. LE_\HY: \Yell, he would mov;, the motion that the Committee disagree with thP Ch ;_innan's ru1i1w:. ~\ n1e1nber could ~pcl.k on a nJotion bc,io:rP he n1ovPd it, an(l that w_,, what lw lll'OlJC.<·d to do. lie wislwcl to give hi.;:; rea:-on: for n1oviu~ t}H' nwtion. The Ch<'il'llHlH; h- "\Ya'> certain, would not <·on~ider that Jn nwvino· this n1ohon he v;:ishe<.l to l'l'fll,.,t on hir,-~1 in the sli,;ht·-·st d0~rc.. He ,·.-oulcl be tht' last man in tlr: l·TOuso l\J do <lll:vd1ing- that 1nip-ht lJu~·t the Chainn m's fr lin7 . IL h d no doubt that tile Cha.irnu:n ha(l (lon0 ·wh ~t ho tl.ought w ... -i 1·ight frfnn h1s point of y~e\Y, but each Inc~n­lH)I' of t 1lt' Hou·,' "\Vn.; ent.jtl{'(1 to his O\Vll

opiniPn {J:l 1~11' nLlih r, and if ;_ n1cn1bcr tlto'H!,·ht th lt the Ch_,_iL1Lan'.; ruli11~~ ~0.·:1s noL ri~·ht. lH' w~l qn1tf~ in crUel' in ttkinf~· th(' lJrGpcr illr 1.11s to te·d the L··•ling of thP Conl­mith'c on the :tlbicc(. ·when the lion. Mr. Fowlc:-; p·0t up anc.l propc,<orl a motion '"hich wns 'c :· t!•c h' .1eH of hotels, that ought to lw a :-:nflici-~;·nt I er -,on for givin!I f_·arnest con­sideration to the ::.:1otion. The IloJ1. :3Ir. Foyd: .._; did not c ll'O ahnnt hotds. he did not i':o into the-n. m1<l he dicl not drink the stu;f theY :.old. Rut to come "' the qnestion be­for;, the Committee, he would remind hon. members that the Council had neYer vc•t giYen up tlw ri,2;ht to amend mcney Bill:. He had lookPtl into this matter during the da;v b~cau~e the qnc."tion \Vas rais<:'d the pre­vious evening, and he found that the section of the Que<'nsland Constitution ~\et which dealt with the matter was section 2. That section read-

" \Yithin the said colony of (~ueensland Her Yia.jesty ~hall have power by and with the advice and consent of the said Council ancl A'>C•lblv to nnke laws f:·r the pPace, wclfar, , m;d good go,·crnment of the colony in ~ll <' .. tsc-•, whaJ•ocver.

" Pro>ided that all Bills for anpro­priating any part of the public revenue for inlpOc·ing any 110\V tax rate or j1npost ,;ubjrut alway' to the limitations hcr<'in­a.fter provide<l, shall orir;inate in the Le:o,-islatn·e Assembly of the said rCJlony."

It would l•e noted tbat the provi,o referring t~} rr:o:tcy ~Pl': only st~tcr~ tL ~~ t':1cy ', hould ' Orif,'Inatc In H•c .ucgis1abYe .... \:~·cmbh·. It did not :•ay that uch Bills should not bo amendNl i>y the Council. Tb re a·· not one "\~·ord ill the SC'C'tion to ~nv that the Coun­cil could not amend money B,ilk All that the Constitdion Act laid clown was that tlwv could not ori~_jnah• rnoncy Bill~ or Ol.'iginat·e tuxation. In England. under the condition~ \":hic~l f. -.;:i:-;~ccl to-da~·. the pro· .... Pdur{' \\as y" rv diffcr_'llt frr)l11 1vb ·t it \Ya.~; .a. few ~p·ars ag~. Th<• Pa rlinnwnt A< t \Y::ts pa"cd in 1911. a1Hl undN th~t mcacure !he Hou .e of Lords h ·cl not the power the Legislative Council of

[If on. Jr. P. Taylor.

Out~enslanJ had :in dea1in~ v:~th rnone'\"" BillP., P.cction of t11e En0;·'i.-h A~t deal-

wi,_h thi; ~uujL:.:t ,~:,_..-.:

'' If a mor'< been JL ~·l L> tlw u· sent up t.:> the Ilotu c o: o:t ~ n1on~h b·~fcn~ the Pnd session, is not P~" ::J by ihc ~l{ u ~of LnrJs with-out. <.E~lC'.i:lLL J'llt itb~n ont; mnnth afte1~ 1r 1 eo u:t nn that llon,e, the Bill :-;hr; 11. un l( -;; the of C\)mn1ons direct to fw cuntnlr)·, ~ p12s.•nted to 1Iis :,\Iajcst~Y 'lHl b2corne an Ac: of Parlia­rnent on tlrr Rova l _.\s~Pnt bc>ing si~nified, not-,·ithst.anding~ that the I-iouse of Lord.3 L F not consented to the Hill."

But that .\et did not .in the lc1Et a.pply to th" Queensland Con'-titution "\et or to the Lt ~~i~lative Council as a branch of tho Quh''nsland LP:J;i~latur.n.. The Council were still \\'orkin~_ onder the original. Constitu­tion. aEd he had quot<ed the cccbon of tho Conc,<itm: m ,,hi,·h dealt ,., ith money Bills. I"J had b- n ~::- jd. on nrovious occasion~ that th·e Commonwr ·1Ith S0~natc ho tl not the right t) an1cncl money Dill-:. The Com'"'10n\vealth Senate was de,;ic<l that right by the Com· monwoalth of Amtralia Con-.tiintion Act, and it had only the right to rceomm<nd to the Hou ·-' of Rcpr<·cn+rttiY · amendments In

mon<' · Ril!--. B·:t the Qucr'!l land Council had u1plo power under the C )n:c-titut:on A('t t 1 mnencl mont ,. Lills. Xo do'-!bt he v·oulrl h~J rcmir ·~lPd bY· th~~ Se~Jrrt : rv for ::\IineF that flCillC' tronblc Qrc ~' ab·">Ut t~v .... •nty- year:_; ngo heh c, :1 tlw tv;o bra.whes of the Lcgi.;lature in Qnecndand. and that the 1natter \vas rc­fu-rcd to the SPerdarv of St.ccte for the Coloni~:;~ \Vho gav0 C{'ri:ain oninion'J ?H the matter. The opini<·'lS of Sc·.:rE>tanes of St:th: for the Colonif's were entitled to re­f'pc>ct, but the-y 1YC'rc in no \Vn.y obligatory on the House.

Th<' CH.\IH1!\X: Tlw opinion of the Priv~~ Ccmncil.

Ho:-.. P. J. LK\HY: ThE' Privy Councii >:·avc an opinion on the subject, . but they did not exprC'::~ -it in the fonn of a ]udgmPnt, and the Council were not bound b0 that opinion. Co1ning to n1orc recent ti1ncs, he ,.ould remind thP Committee that in 1915-thc first vcar Hw prc3cnt Govern.rn0nt. wero in officc-tl1cv st>nt -up the Income Tax Rill and the 'Land Act Amendment Bill. The ('onncil anwnckd both of tho c Bills. At that tim0. the CIPirman of r'ommittces, who was the pr<''cnt occ'1Jl'lnt of the office, gave the ruling thtt he had g-in•n that afternoon, a.ncl the Comn1itf, , over-ruled the Chairn1an's ruling and pnt in their an1encln1ents. ...<\. con:crencc tc1ok place between the two IIon+s on those amendments a.nd otlwr amonrlments in ti;c Bill, and the result of the confercnc:o was Jhat Pcvcral of the Council's n1nerhhn0nt~. '"vhich \vcre much ;.:tronf!'er than :-he onp no'v undP,. coL. ·idcration, "\vere agreed tc>, Tl>· A"r•nbl:v did not a~tnall:v aCC"pt the amennnwnh of the Council. The Conn· cil vcithdrPw their amendments. and thev wcm put in in the LPgi~IatiYo Asse>mbly. But if th0 Council harl .~ot inserted them in the Bill in dw fir~t iw,bncc, there would han• hc•cn no opportunit·.- for the Assembly imc>rt· ing- them after-.• ar.rh. H0 wus therefore fol­lmYing' the com·sc• adopted b~' the Council ore t lw ocn 'ion hco had referred to.

Hon. R. Su>IXER: \Yill you take CYetT precedent?

Stamp Act [-f JULY.] ill

Ho::;. P. J. LK-\HY: If it was a gocd rne,·cd_•nt ho ~, ould accuvt it, but if it ·wa" an irrc~.;:.vaut precc dent, such ~, 3 "\\as some~ tirm' quoted by the other sid<e, ho would treat it as umc_·octhv of notice. Ho was not sure whoth·~r he sho~uld rrLovo his n1otion now or give notic; that he \voulcl n1oYe it on a f ntnre <J ·.·;a;;; ion.

Tr1o (;H~UR::\L\::\: You can moYo it no•y, hv ]ea YC o£ the Co~nnYittec.

·I-io:s". P . . T. LE~~Ii¥: If it w; s the \Yi'b of tho Connnltt(~P. 1L: \Ycq_ld lHO\--e tho 1notion no\v, but i£ he~ \Yas not giyen leave to n1ovo tho motion. he .nulrJ giYe notice that he would n1ovo it at nnotlv~r ti111e.

Tl:-'l CIL\Ift:"IL\::\: I it the pleccsurc of tht:• CJHtnlitft:! that tho rnotion bo put'?

I-Ioxorro.BLE ~-l~:\IBERS : lioL~r, hear r

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: Then I beg to moYe­That the Chairman's ruling be dicagreed to.

Hox. T. :\I. HALL: He would not cntiC1S8 in an~v ·,-,.ay the decision of tho Cha:nnan, bur \Votdd ap

1,ro.•,:·h the qu<'stio!l

fron1 th-! ~ :)IJ. __ iliator~- ~tu.ndlHJiut o: arriYii;J at ;;.:)lll.C '''nciu,iou b;_''tW('-·n tlw t.',.,:o lion-L' .. , on a matter of this kind. There were two coursu O[l' -, ;' J the Comm:,tce. The fh ,t \YaP, a vcr,\ (ha.,_:c on-, whieh had been avoided on thi occasion, -with <1 view to trvin(r to conlt' to an acrreernent lJe~-ween thr t\~O fionsu ith n•sp~rt to the Bill, and that conrsc '"'u.; to throw out the BiJl on its sPcond rPadin '. Hon. memb21·s had avoided that, \Vith a. view to arriving at an agree­ment between tlw two Houses on the ques­tions \Yith rc•spe('t to "'xhich th0y difi(~rcd. The other eo m' •e was to defeat the Dill on its third r-••ciing. after it had passed through the ( ;::;·nnlittN_· sL1JIC. It was not his desire-and. he believed, it w.t ~not thP desire of oth£>r nwn1bcr ,-to C'a(·t ont legi · lation in that high-hnnd~d \Yay. lt ditl seem a pit.';

that then• should b0 anything in [4 p.In.] the natnl'C of an , ~nb r~ o p:accd

upon am•'ndm€'nts which might Ol' might not Jw accepted b~- the Ae-.•,mbly, n nd the? wt'r0. ~tra injng the point very rnuch indr,-d wlwn tltPy can1o to the question of finance•. The .C:UlF ndtn,·nt·-; that had been pro­posed in the Dill wocdd aff. d. to wmc ex­tr,.I+-, tlw l'C'YC':.lH' de~·ived fron.L the U1C''lSUr(",

but it eoutnine l a Yicious prinf·iple whirh it wm1ld he uny·i-c to let loo.,, on tlw com-. n1unity, and it v. a~ the duty and the privi­h•.;_:rc of ; ~w Conndl to iaterC'f'l>t lnything of that nature. If. in rioin"· so, the;· e'<posetl thc!nsPlvcs h) t:w charg0 that they ·were not vennitted to amend IUO!H~Y Bill". thr-n th~:rP 1vas on]y OJH~ ('Oursc:• onCn to the Council 1Yht.=~n a, ~rnca;-:;urc• o~ that cl L "'1:;'1s brought f-:-'.'''·a.rd, antl ,h, t' ·,·ts, to reject it on the second reading. Then, no doubt, they would be ch·~rg ·d wi·h ob.:..tructinp: GoYcrnmerH bnsint· ~\t th<• llfPS1'11t. ti1nc thny C'l'("

sending to Hw ~\· --.:Putb1,y aincndJlll'nt~ "\Yhich 1night b0 cJwU ·1Y·t'd b:v thP Cl1 1 it<nan qs tH~ing ontf'ldP thf'il' prn .~in{'C', but ··_611, r~t th:o ~ an1e tinH', it ,. <F a nw~u1 of conlnlnnif'atlou hr•hyccn th<· 1 -.ro 1lou::;'C' when_ >~- ~mnc ~hing nlight he arri .... ~r--cl at ·whieh y;onld he :nntu~ all~~ bc_lf'fL·ia1. IIe n1:-clf' tl-o~~ rernarks in t1w h')P" that onw (·tiol't ,yculd bo ?na~de, in th; llf'H r fut·lrP, t ') rPn~o\~O the difllc ultie~ tht·Y to <·O'Jt"'lHl ·with 't the present t1m~c. ('hainnn ·~. of co~tl·.P, Wft~ in n tliftiC'ult pc.:itioa in ruling on a qu~'-tion of

that kind bnt theY wero clo1nQ' th0nF0lYc'3 P'tOl'O ha:t'lll thJ.n :vod, and uc;i~g tho Go· YC'rn:r.lc-llt in another pta(·O n10l't~ h~u·n1 than good, by rejcctin.c; a Bill and nt•t al'•,wing­it to go hack to the other House to be further cm:sidered.

The SECRE'LUtY l<'OH Mll\:ES: Pcr­mnally, he <!greed that it "as ise to take the discussion here and now r_·.ther than com­pel the Hon. Mr. Loahy, in accordance with the Standing Orders, to give notice of his motion, because they might just as well thrash the principle out to-day as on any other day, as it was. .sure to crop up bofore the financial propc-als of the Government were likely to cct through the Council.

Hon. P. J. LE.\HY: You did it yourself.

The SECRETARY FOR :::VIINES: There \'.US no doubt that the fight would como sooner or later, and thcr<~forc he did not rai•-o his Yoi,· o ag·:linst the leave to go on ".vith the n1otion straight <1."\':ay. ~-\.. Yery great principle was involved in the question that the Chairman's ruling !Je di ,agreed to. He was one· who hp]icwcl that the Chairman's rulinc" \Yn3 thorou':!,'h]v in tlCcorcL nee \vith their 'o,;n f:,tancling Order , and thoroughly in nc . ..;ord \\Tith parliarn<•11tary uf3cge and practice. Thc,ir Standin~ Orders. \vere o·o,-erncd L. .. rge-1v bv prach"-'e, and 1f they ';:.,ere to brutk "dO\--n all the traditions of ParlirtiD( y1t by acr,;pting· the 1notion moved Ly the lion. 1\Ir. Leahy, it would be a very serious action for th~ Cou;wil to take. H<• >voukl like to quote from " :;I.Iay·' t? show how ,far back thcv could go to cla1m the rir,hts of the pcopio's rcpn,sentatives in the m~tte;· of monov Bill', and if the motion was carried and tfw Cour:.cil v, 1s a1lo~sed to amend or ,,Iter m01wy Bills it v.-ould tr~l,y­he an infringcrn{'nt of the righ+s :J.nd pnv1~ lf>gC> of the LegislatiYt' c\ssombly and thC' people's 'crn·esent ,ltiYcs.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: You s<tid practically that this >vas not a revenue Bill.

The SECRETARY FOH MI::\ES: !-'he hon. ITentloman •houkl not put words mto hi,; m';,uth. He did not say it was no~ a nvcnue Dill, as that would be a Yery s1lly etabmwnt to mnk<'. be<'anse. anybody _wh;> knew anything about the Bill or tho prmcJ­pal Act knew perfectly well that the _Stamp Act, was a ren•nu0 Act. VVl1at he said w~s that the Dill •.·mght to adJu~t certam anomaliu, antl the Government d14 not ex­pect to (':'et a_ larg-0 a1;1ount of I~crc:asecf"I 1·evcnue from 1t. ThercLorc, the Blll 1tseL >Yas not altogdher >< rcv<'nue Dill.

Hon. A. G. C. FT.\WTHOR'>: Don't you cali £25,000 <1nything?

Tlw SECRETARY FOR ::\II::\"ES: 1t would be a fortmw to himscl' individually, lmt it -v·a <L mere fleabite when thev ta,lked v bout rov('nUP to th(~ Govcrninf'nt of a pros~ 1;erous State like QuN'nshntl. The Hon. M;·­L<'ahv abo interjcd0d that he had done 1t hime~lf. Ho admitbd thr,t, Jmt, as the Chairman -aptly ,,,icl, two \Hong' clid _not mak<' .• right. Ho ... ,cl~nitterl thA the prCYlOtF

.~,n~ninO' he jnad, '='rtenth~ n1o\ ~!cl an ainend­nwnt ~vhieh \YUs <::arrie.d, and he app0aJed to the Chairman immcdiatPly foi' n, rn!ing on the ,nn<'ndmcnt. bcc,mse it ,j,,·,nKd on him sncld< nlY that it was c.ut of order. The lion. :\ir. F.owlc·R had circulate-d an amend-

Non, A . .f . .lo11es.]

712 Stamp Act [COUNCIL.] Amendment Bill.

ment and he reallv intended to ask the Chairman's ruling on that amendment, e.nd he {Mr. Jones) moved his amendment inad­vertently. " JYiay" said-

" The Commons, having during nearly three centuries claimed the right to in­clude the members of the HouSB of Lords in the tax<Ltion levied upon the subject·, of the Crown (see page 470) ad­vanced this claim still further in 1671 by resolving, ' That in all <tids given to the king by the Con1mons, the rate or tax ought not to be al~ered bv the Lords.' and, on the 3rd July, 1678, 'b:v a second resolution 'That all aids and supplies, and .aids to his Majesty in Parliament, are the "')le gift of the Commons.' "

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: That is 200 years ago. Th" SECHETARY FOR :.\fiXES: Ye·,

and ho wa;; just showing how far the prece­dent went back, and he wanted to prove that of recent date also tlwv had a very good authority on the point. '" May" went on to say-

" And .all Bills for the granting of any s'-';ch aids and supplies ought to begin w1th the Common~; and that it is the undoubted and sole right of the Commons to direct, limit, and a.ppoint in such Bills the ends, purpose'~', con­sideration~} conditions, limitations. and qualifications of such granti', which ought not to be changed or altered bv the House of Lords." "

He hoped the Council would take that verv high authority. He would like, in furthe~· confirmation of his argumpnt, to quote from ''Parliamentary Govc~-,Hnent in the British Colonif's," by Todd. Todd said-

" The relative righb of both Houses in matters o.f aid and supply must be determined! in every British colony, by the ascertamed rules of British constitu­tional practice. The local Acts upon the subject must be construed in conformitv with that practice wherever the Imperi.;:l polity is the accepted guide. A claim on the part of a colonial Upper Chamber to the possession of equal rights with the As;;emblv to. amend a monev Bill would he inconsistent with the ancient and undeniable control which is exercised by the Imperial House of Commons over all financial measures. It is therefore impossible to concede to an Upper Cham: bor the right of amending a money Bill upon the mere authority of a local statutt', when such Act admits of being construed in accor·dance with the well­understood laws and usages of the Im­perial Parliament.''

He would com£' nearer home to a case which was submitt•d for consideration to the Privv Council. The case was quotf'd in "Keith,;' volum£' 1, pag·•s 559 to 567. That was a Queensland case, <1nd it would suit his arg-u­ment. sufficiently well to quote t~e qu< "tions subm!ttr>d and the answers gJV<'ll. The questwnco were-

" l. Vi'lwthcr the Constitution Act of 1867 conf<•rs on the Le[\'islative Council 1W\·. er,, eo-ordinat-~ \Y·ith t11C13!' of thC' Lcg·i::..Jntive ..c\ssemhl~- in th0 am0ndm ~nt of n ll Bills, including m on' y Bilk

" 2. \Yheth2r the claims of the Le,;ris­htive .·\'"'·cmblv. ns sA forth in thei1· mocsagP of the' 12th NoYember are well foundrd." '

Th<Lt wns in connection with a ca'cil where

fllon. A. J. Jones. <lilt.

the Legislative Assembly proposed to amend the Constitution by tho introduction of a Bill providing for the payment of members of Parliament. Probably the Hon. Mr. Brentnnll, and som<' otlwr hon. members who could carrv their memories back further in Queensland politics than he could, would remember the case, because it was dated 3rd April, 1886. He was quoting from "'I'he R·-lations between the two Houses," by the late Clerk of the Parliamenh, Mr. C. \V. Costin. The amwcr to th0 que<tions ho hacl just read \Y(l"'-

.; Agre,Jd humbly to report to Her Majesty that the first of these questions should b0 answered in the n0gative, and the second question in the affirmative."

Clear!_,,_ that denied the right of the Council to intNfcre with money Bills.

Hon. P. ,J. LE.\HY: This Council has never given up its right, notwith~tancling.

The SECRET_\RY FOR MINES: The Council never had the right.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: Vi"r· hav0 nlways asserted that right.

The SECRETARY FOR :.\HNES: Clearly, it would be very unfair, unjust, and undemo­cratic if the Council had that right.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: The Con,·titution is very plai.n.

The SECRETARY FOR :\liNES: The Legi~lntive Assembly wa;; elected by the people to make expenditure and revenue meet. They were the representatives of the people. and if the Council could thwart the will of the Legislative Ass(mbly in connec­tion with money matters, if they so wished. they could put the Government on the rocks in one se<sion of Parliament.

Hon. ·w. R. CRBIPTO~: That is what they are trying to do.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: That was practically ·done during the last sPssion of Parliament. Th0 action of the Council in rejecting the financial proposals of the Government was responsible for the deficit at th~ end of the last financial year.

Hon. P. ,J. LEAHY: The extravagance of the Government is responsible.

Hon. E. W. H. FowLES: The railways lost a million.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The deficit was the result of the Council throw­in"' out all thE' financial Bills. The Hon. ·M~. Beirne would agree with him that the firm that did the buying should al5o do the selling.

Hon. A. G. C. HA>' THORN : The Govern­ment are doing the selling all right.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: And the branch of the Logislatnre which was responsible to the people, and had to raise the revenue, should be the only branch of the Legislature that should dictate the terms of taxation to the people.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: iYN'f' WQ constitu­tion:cJI_.~ wrong last year in throwing the financial Bills out?

The S"GCRETARY FOR :;1-IlNES: The Cnuncil WD" not cor~,;titutionally wrong, buG if they maintained that right, the C'ounciL. in twelve months, could put ;:ny Govern­ment elected by the people on the rocks financially.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: They will put them­selves on the rocks.

Stamp A2t [1 JnY.] Artzcndment Bill. 713

The SECRETARY FOR :\1IXES: Had the Council agreed to the financial proposals of the Government last year, there would have been no deficit.

Hon. A. A. DA VEY : You got more from taxation last year than vou said you would get if your fin:mcial mea~ures were pas,ed.

Tl1e SECRETARY FOR ;yrrNES: Ho understood right up till yesterday that the Legislative Council, on this occasion, know­ing that there was a war on. and knowing that the Govcrnn1cnt nnu .. t tmffer son1c finan­cial strr~') w~ a consequ~nce of that 'yar, were quite willing to assise the Government with their financial mr·asnrc:'.

Hon .. A. G. C. HAWTHOR;o;: In a reason­able wa~,.

The SECRETARY FOR 1\II.:\ES: "Cn­fortnnately, that was where they dilfered­on th-. queetion of reasonablenu-s. It wa ., reasonab~c to expect that the Government of the day whi< h was elected by the people should have a free hand in regard to their taxation proposals, cnr! Jet tlwm b0 dealt with three vears h<'nC" when th··•· faced their masters. the people. -

Hon. P .. J. LEAHY: The country might be wrong all the time.

The SECRETARY FOR :\IIXES: Let the Coumil pass the Popular InitiatiYc and RcfC'rendnnl Bill-h(' \vas going to say, with thP recall.

Hon. A. A. DA YEY: You will not give them that.

The SECRETARY FOR l\IIKES: If thev did that. th(•y could give the people ai1 earlier opportunity of getting their rights.

Hon. P. J. LE.UIY: \V ill you agree to the l'ecall if w0 agrep to pass the referendum '1

The 8ECRETARY FOR l\IIKES: He was not there to accf~pt or sugge~t any conl­promisP. He did not think rdorms were likely to be gained from that Chamber in future by compromise•. He. was not throw­inrr it out as a suggestion. but it might be wiec to haw• a conference with the other Chamber. (HPar, hear !) While the Council oontinu<'d to exist. it should receive the re­spect that was due to it; but he thought the Council should pay the same respect to the other Chamber, and rec<Jgnisc their rights and not try to usurp those rights. In con­dusien, he would quote a YPry high autho­rity-Sir Samu0l Griffith-who summed up Qne Queensland case in thes(' words-

" It meant this: that thev had a writ­ten C<mstitution; that in this Constitu­tion it was cxpre3sly sbt0d that money Bills shoul·d originate in the LegislatiYe As.embly--''

Hon. A . .:\. D.IYL>: Thi' Bill originated there.

Th.-, SECRET.\RY FOH ~.HXES: ·· and th0rt> '\Vere no 1wgativc \:vord:-3 in it prohibiting- t!w Cvuncil from cl~aling 'Yith n1onpy BilL.;.''

Hon. P. J. I.-:--.\l:Y: En.; land has no Con­_.titution. and w _ haY<'.

Th~ SECRET"\RY FOR l\IIXES: "That wa -- v'· ne doubt. Thctc ,,-a, nothinp: in tb" written la1\- of I~n':"land 'o prohibit the Hothc of Lmds -from ll afin.r_,. ·with n1o11r.- Dilb. but in prac:­

tH · it had al\\- lYf' br.'n rcf'o::rnised that tht·~. h :d no :;u(·h rizht. I-lc did not .knc;.\,. vvherc tlLre 1v~s any instance in

which a nominated House had been allowed bY the clectiYo House to inter­fpre with ~n1oney Bills.''

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: How long ago was that?

Th" SECl\ET"-\RY FOR MIXES: Tha~ \va"~ \Vhf'll Sir S.:;.nlul'l Griffith •vas Pren1ier of Quecrhland.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: He was an interested party at that time. That is the speech of a. party politician.

Hon. "l<. G. C. ILIWTHORX: He was in the "\ssembly. and >vantcd to uphold his own >·osition.

Hon. P .. J. LEAIIY: He V:.l- a politician; just as tho I\TirHstcr is noYl.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : Tho hon. gentleman would not sugge',t for a moment that Sir Samuel Griffith would sac­rifice his reputation by giving such an opinion if he did not honestly believe it to b,, correct.

H0n. P. J. LEAHY: He was the advocate for his party.

The SECRE'l'AR Y :FOR MIXES : 'rho opinion \vas a sound onP, and it ""~as in accorrlance with the opinion of many other lugh nDthorities. There v:ae no need to quote any furthN authoritie>, although he had ''"- .•ea!. 1£ hem. members thought that, be­'"ll""' the.· l1arl "' majority behind them, t~l·'" could carry the motion disagreeing \Yith the Clwirn1an":: rutin~:. and that, therefore they had the right to interfere with monev Bills, he contended that it wa,, an unsound position fa,· them to take up. He was in hopes that they might--

Hon. _..\., G. C. H.\WTHORX: Compromise.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: They might compromise upon some of the clauses uf the Bill, but it was not possible to com­promise upon the question of the right of the Council to amend monev Bills. It would be a narrow position for h"im to take up to argu0 that every Bill the Government brought in was right in every detail. The moment a Bill went back to the Assembly it could be amend<:'d there and probably im­proved; and the more a Bill was transmitted from one Chamber to the other the more likely it wa' to be perfected, because all legis­lation was experimental, and no measure was perfect in the first draft. The Government supporters in the Chamber intended to oppose the motion as strenuously as they could. TheY hoped it would not be carried, and that !he 'Council would not further infringe the right, of the representative,; of the people in th<' other Chamber.

Uox. ~\. G. C. :t-IA'\VTHORN did not think th< re wa,, much good in going at any great ]e,p:th into tlto matter in dispute. Thev had had it year after year for the last fiftv" coars. and in all that time the Council b _l jleYQl' giYen up its rights in any way, or , "wc'dul the cLim put forward by the \sscmblv that tho Council had no riC"ht to

intcrfPr€ with th0 expenditure of moflcy or th0 raising of rcYcnu<:.

HoH. G. P.\Gr.-HA:\IFY: l\otwithstanding tlL' dcci~ion of the PriYy Council ~t

Hor. R. Snr:ci:R: It is ''time it >vas settled · frPr fift~.~ ~ PG_l'

IT oc;. "\. U. C. HAWTHORN: He did not 1 'Ji,•n' it would "'-er bo settled.

Hon. R Sni;o;ER: It \Yill be settletl. The people 1v.~.i! sett\~· it.

Hon. A. G. G. Hawfilorl'.]

714 Stamp Act [COu'NCIL.] Amendment Bill.

Ho:\ .. \. G. C. I-IA\YTHOR~: They wm-o n;Jt t!.frai~l to go to th(2 people to-lnOlTOl''. ~Ihe YC'rdrc~ woulU be the ::::anw as it was in llla:·. 1817. .Ho ' as satis11cd that the pooplo '-~·otlld. b-• '-'lth _therLI in tbis 1nattcr, as the Councd ~.va6 aetlng ~0lelv in the interests of the1 people. The Con •. thution onlv laid it ?o\vn tlL~ t r::1oncy Bills n1ust be Originated Fl the "L ·•n-,bly. It did w< sav that that C1ta1nb0r mn'"t carrv on the vd~olc of the financial business of the countrv. So lon<r as th0 CounC'il was a part of tiw Com::t1h~ tion, the, were entitled to deal with evcrv piece c;£ L gislation that caruc before thr n~, othcrv:Jcc- -.;hat WES tho o-ood of the Coun­cil? As a ro\~isino- Chanll1er ihev would be ·~ailing in thc_ir dnt'y if they did 1lot go fnll~-· mto the detmls of every Bill brought before tl1om and say whetht•r they thouP'ht it f ·1ould bo p<1,s~ed o1· not. ~

Hon. R. Sum:En: If it \\·as a Liberal Govcrnnwnt in po\vcr, ~vou woulJ S\\ allow the lot, as you alwa;, :< did.

liox. A. G. C. fL\ WTHOU:"i: The hon. member mado many ac, -crtions of thc·t kind, but they had no foundation in fact. Since the Labour party crrme into power the C'mm­ml had passed something- like ninety Bills. They had thrown out enme. but all that they considered rcasona ble a:!d for the benc­f1t of the State they had pn, -eel.

Th • SECREnRY ·on :\II:<:E.• : You are not touch~ng on the eo m titutional a spec' of th·.' qucshon.

IIox. A. G. C. HA WTHOR~: The con­stitutional aspect wa··, that the Ac-~mblv were entitled to originate money Bills, and that was all: and nothing would conviucQ him that the Assemblv had anv furthc ,. right.. than that, or that the Co!mcil hn,cl ~wor yiE'lded iL right to amend moneY Billc .. 1£ necessary. The Mini-ter· had caid thrct they should not have taken such an cxtr«nP step as to 1nove di <toTeenH:nt with thP ruling of the Chair; but that was the onlv way in which th0y could get bofPre th;, A·•·;embly the amendments thev wished to insert in the Bill. Those amcridmonts Wd'e considered necessary to make the Bill what it should be, and when they came before the Assembly that ChambPr eould intimate> to the Council that they desired to have a confercnee. ~he ::Yiinister had suggested a conf0rence himself: and, in snitc of what the hon. gentlc1nan said, it "1,a,-, an casv matter to get reforms bv compromise. Ho had no doubt the motimi would be carried, and that thPy would get in their amend­ments, and then thev would be able to ha.v.· ?- eonfl'rcnoe with 'the c; hN IIousP. au-rl, If the Assembly wore at all reasonable, lw had no doubt they could come to SO'JJC

agreem<>nt, with the .result that the Bill would g·iyc the GoYcrninPnt a fair rnnount of revenue, but that revenue would be put on u proper ba:;ns. I-Ion. Incinbers "'\Verc perfectly prepared to do all thev could to a<si~t th Govunnwnt in getting the £400.000 they wanted to makl> o-oml tlw defic-it. but thc>y 10·cre going to ~se0 th~r the money "\Vas get bv re .. tsonnblc 1--rl<".:;_ns and not hv Oppl'C,- _,i \ C 'and hara ~~in er l110tl n "­and that the Government ,-,ore ~ot frofr{; t) g~~t n1casurr, throug-h t.lu::.:t v;onld ~) 1r~y~ them. not ,£400,000, but probably ':800.000: They wanted to place a limit en the oxtnJ­Yagance o£ th0 Govc:rnn1f'Dt.

I-I on. \Y. R. CIU.:\IPTOX: 1~<l~l have n:;t sho-v. n any cxb~aYagancn on tb0ir part.

Hox. A. G. C. HA WTI-IOH~: He harl sho" n ihat, "ith the greatest revenue ever

[Hon. A. G. C. Hawthorn.

cnjoyetl by any GoYCI'Dnlent in Queensland, thev had ended the year- with a deilcit of ove'r £400,000.

'ion. IY. R. CRD!PTOX: They had the greatf· t (1·:-;:penditure, too.

Hos. A. G. C. IIA \VTHOR?\: Th 1t was ' .. :1cre tln fault lay. If the Government had c crri _.j out a proper policy, they .··l10ukl luLVo had a curplus easily last year.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: ·would ou have retrenched the public service?

Hon. H. SG}!XER: \Yhat would you lwvG eliminated?

Hox. A. G. C. HA \YTliOTIX: It w. s not for hi n to say '.'hat >hotlld have been eliminated.

Hon. B.. SniXER: If you ho.d hac! th· running of the thin3·, the~ r;o~ it ion would have be•:n a gr<'at dc·1l woree.

IIox .• \. G. C. HA \VTIIOR:'\: If he lwrl ha cl the running of things, there "-oulcl net have b.~cn a deficit with n, revenue, lib· rhat. They disagreed with the ruling bc•­causc the_.- thought that their views should be pl:ced lJ0for~ the other Chamber. Hr, h"d no doubt that tho GovcrnnlCnt -would get ,.n'i;<'iNlt revenue from their four taxatio·· nH.:asurcs, as the Council \Vi::;hE d to amend them, to ]H'Ovidc at ka't the £4CJ.000 t!H'Y wanted. lnrk."l, he believed they wou1d go·, far more than "£400,000 even with tlw amendments o; the CJuncil.

Hox. G. PAGE-fL\XIFY: Thoro \vas ,, provPrb that ·'Fool' blindly rush in ·where angels fear to tread. n

lion .. ~\. G. ( '. liAWTHOR). : Step back at once, then. (Laughter.)

l-!ox. G. PAGE-II \.:'\IFY: Someone has said. .. Fc0· ,; 1·u~h 1•.:her-e .angt~b fear to tread .. , Bc·int:, r. noYic(, }- r:- 1nif;ht Y<'l'Y well lmn· tk .. t !'l'OY"rb CJUOtod to him when he ~tood up to spc _:k on rr con: Litutional qUF'stion ,,uch as \Yas now before the Con1mittPe. But, although he confessed that, from his own lmowledg<', he did not know much about the que,,tion, he had learned to respect the greatcot legal authority in the British Erc,pirc-the Privy Council. He had also had the privilege of reading the paper pre­pared by the late Clerk of Parliaments, Mr. Cost in, on " The Rc>lations Between the Two Ilouses," which \Yc;.nt yory yolurr1inously into matters in dispute from time to time between the two Chambers, and the mannPr in which thev had been dealt with. HP found from tha-t paper that precisely the same' argu­me•Jts as those now used by hon. members on the other sido with respect to tlw right of the Council to deal with monov Bills had hr. n raised previously. and WPrn submiUNl to the Privv Council for decision. He did not know that it would b" well to quote the document at length.

r4.3o p.m.] Hon. T. ~.I. IL\LL: \YlH:t is tho elate of

that? Hox. G. P.\GE-:L\XIFY: Th~ 12th :'\o­

Y<·mb T, 18._.J. That was rhr ,1 arc ~ hen the cli~pnte arc n b~<"\Y0C11 th(' t·yro I-Icn:-:t:s. Very lu1gthy n--~E.'>n· \Yl~r _ .~ .. :6"~> .. ;n b~- t:u~ LPgis­};y'-iY0 _-\·'':'!nbl· v Lv thev could 11ot .. :,llow· thP f:ouncil 1-o- iutt'~fPrc- .. ·itl1 li10llL'\r Bill~.

r:_•a n.;:; 1.n•.::': .. ' rt"}liC'cl to ~ hv th,; If· wrr not p:ci~Ig t1) 1·ea~l the·

thC' ~'f>'t -Jt1 ... , ·-.t forth LY the~ Legi~­~- tiYf' A.··c•: :__;h.-. hut hP \Ynnld quote 'thl7 fullowin? :- ... · . ..

1 • •

·· _fhc\ Lc~n :1atl\"C' A;sP1nh1y nla1nta1·1, rP..ci haY·-~ ah\· ty:-: B1:tl:ntainc-d. that (in tlw 1.Yord-· oi tl1e rc---o1ution of the IIonso

Stamp Act [4 JULY.] 715

of Common·~ d 3rd Jul,v. 1678) all Aid' and Supplies w Her l\:hjcsty in Parlia~ 1nc:nt flTL~ tlv.~ sole g i£t of this Ilout:c, and that it is th<'ir nndoubt<•d and soie righ' to din t. li;nit, at}d appoint, in BilLs of _\id an -1 S~lP!1I;~, the ends, purposes, con­sirlorJtions, 'L·Jl .-F,;~c,ns, litnitLtions, and qur lifkarir.. ns of such grants, \;hich ought not tu be rhang"d or altered by the Lc~i-lativc Council."

The Coum·il. in their reply, cited pretty well the nrgtunont.; v:hich had bcul u;,0d thr-re that n..Hornoon. In tlJC~ir nw:-sago to the .\hembly tlwy said-

" In thn rnendrnont o: all Bills tlw Con<tituticn Act of 1867 confers on thJ Le r"i ·l~tiY _, Courwii 1101.-f'r·" 'o-ordinuto witn tho'le of the Le:-islatiY'l c\ · smnbh·, and the anncxin:; of an~- cl 1L' to a Bill of Sup.!:1ly, the E<}attcr cf which i forcivn to, and differed from, the matt0r ·of ..said Bill of Supply, is unpr:_:dhuncntary and tnnds to tlw (le trnc.ion of const~­tuti ,nal :rovernmcnt and the item which h1clut~c~ the payrnc'nt of HJ.C'Ill1-,_-r~' ox­pcnH:9 : o£ the~ nuturu ( i' a • tac';:.'"

That refcrncl to the particular matter dP.tl­ing \vi rh tlw p:tyn1c1 t o~ rnc .nbers. By a rrangc1nr·nt bet\ ·cen the t\--:. o If ou~es, the whole of t.ho2c• ;::ng-unrnts pro and cJn. were Buhnlith:d_ by the~ tb:n Prc-n1inr, ;::,ir Samuel Griflith, to the· Governor for tr.·wmi·;ion to the Secretary of State for the Colonic·.

Hon. T. C\L lhu,: He w< ·; de' ·Pdirw him-self. · ~ .. ,

Hox. G. P_'.GE~HA::.JIFY: He did not think "hat. evr:n in dcfm1Jinc; himself, Sir Samuel Gri!li~h "ould place him·'<'If in tiw position of gi \-ing a. \·\TOn~-r o:r C'rro~:eous statement. -

Hon. T. :\I. HALL: He \V:H giving an ex parte etatcrmnt.

Hox. G. PAGE~ IT. \NIFY: In referring the matter to His Excellency the Govcrr.or on the 26th Novo~ber, 18S5, Sir San;uol Griffith mid. among ether things-

" I an1 not a'vare of any instanc~ in ">'-'hich a similar case has be~n submitted for the oryinion of the p,·i"" Council. The only analogous case that I' have been able to discover is that of the case sub­mitted in 1872 bv both Houees of the Legislature of j\;'E'.w Zealand for the opinion of the Crown Law O!licer . Some reluc1 an cc, howC'vor. cxiotcd in this <-olony to '~nbmit tl..is 1natter as one purel.v of law for the opinion of the Law Offic ·rs. I a'n sure that vcn· '.(r,at c :tis­faction will be Jdt b:· both Ho·m,_;s of thA Legislature if Her ]\,Iajc,':v ohould think fit, in thi" imtancc, to rdc1· the matter to. the PriYy Council, as prayNl by the ]OJnt acldre,s; and I ( )ncciYP, a]~o, that f:uch a rcf~ r, '1Ce \Yould net inYclY~-, <111'7

de-parture- in pt·inciplo fl"Jnl : nC'i:_m't theory ancl lHac~,ice as to the funeticr>-: of +he Co111JCil, althou:.'h tlw I' functions rnay not in recent tim1·..; haYc bPf'n Pxcr­ci~cd under circun1''tance·-: prcciselv analcg-ous. But cycn if tho proposed reff'lC'ncu i" f'On~idcr-=-t1 to he not '-np­port·'d by ancient theory er ]wecedcnt. I \~entnre to sug;;·c•.t that the csL1blid1n1ent of such a precedent would not be di. ad­Yantageous. ''

With that letter the matter was sent along t<J the Governor, who forwarded it to thu Secretary of State for the Colonies. The

·whole n1:~tt:: r ,_,v'"' then subn"_littcd to the Lords of the Pri 1·y Council. with a request that tho~- \Youkl answer nvo qupstion . and the reply, -;,vhich ::i<'('l11C'd to hin1 to be vcrv decisive-althoug-h he admitted that it ha~l never Le 01:. accc~'t" l by the Councii-\v ;_.:; as folio'·' ·

'· \VhitPlw ll. " 3rcl April, l086.

··Sir.-'· I am dir etod b\- the Lord PrPsidc nt

cf ··C Cou1~cil to acquaint you. f0r the· ;nforrna i''n cf Earl Granvil:c. that the Lor .Is of tbc .J ncli·· :ai c~mn1~tt w· h:-tV( j)T')( ne<lt 1, in uberlic·nco to Her ~-iRjC'st.Y~~ Order of R: fe,·enc:J of tl" 0 8th '\Ltrc h, to eon- · lr'r th~, pf tition addn~, r J to I-!er l\1ajc-ty in Council b~- the Le :·ielatiY<' Connci I at'd the LcgislatiYe As.,cmbly of Qu :L'll"LtLd, '<·hid1 v. as trailSlnitted tu thi,: .,n; '"· with 11 letter fro111 thn Right Hon. Sit :crcder i ·k Stanlc :·. on the 3rd Fchrua ry last p Li't. ·

·• Tbe I..orrh of the CoP1n1itlt·e pr(·fwnt r•n t"h0 oc~.l3ion \V(l'\' the I.or,l Pr0sident, th0 Lorcl High C'hanc~llor. His Graw the ]h,J::o cot R i<·hmond and Gordon, Lord Aberdeen, Lor•l Blackbnrn, Lord Hob~ hon~". ancl Sir Richard Couch. and their Lordships ha.Ying cnn .. :id('rr-d the petjtion and the t"'1YO qu( :)tiorJ..: therein raised, VIZ.-

y-j, ·thPJ' the C'1mtituhon Act of :"'17 C'nnfcr•, on the Lrgislativ<: ( \mnei1 })('\vcrs co~ordin~\to with the ·P of the LcgislativA .\e.-,mnbl:t in the anwndnwnt of all Bills, in­('lnrlirrcr lllDney Bills;

2. \Yh0th0r the claims of tlw 'Le~isla­tiY:.' _·\p· ,,mbly, as "' t forth in their LH .~~·1rr0 of tlH3 12th I'\oycn1ber, are "·r·Il foundcrl,

c.t;'JT"<l lmmhly to report to Hor i\1ajc .ty t.hat tl1o fird of these nuc·')tioL;; ~hould b'' an~,~·('?(•d in the r.~~·4·at(Yc, und tbe soconcl r1ur ion in U11.' aflirnuttiYe.

"The rerort eo£ th0 ,Judicial CommittP•• l1aq !wen appron d by Iler l\laje;,ty in Council 1 o~day. Copies of the Order in Council app1·oving the same \Yill shortly bn for\Yarr.1Pd to vou for trannnission to Quecneland." '

That conlnnuJj~'atim' \Vas signc.d " Harry H"'"ve." It seemed to him that, apart alto~;ethf'l' fmn1 the l0<r,~tl dcci~ion of thP Privv Council. it w s lUll'< asonable that the Cou~cil. whi<'h '~ n~ n, non1inec- bod.v~. should interfe'· · with mOl:cv Bills fnr 'c:hich the Go: crnrncnt in th0 · other Cha'11ber were~ rospon<i]Jlc. 'fhat appeared to him to be crnite in1pl'0IJ', l'.

Hc,n. T. :\I. H.\LL: The~- did not contem~ plate in those days the existence of such a GoY,,l'llint"'nt as '''O haYl' now.

Ho:;. G. PAGE-HANIFY: He did not kno·,,· what they contemplated in that reepect, bllt it was evident that they contemplated 1< :tving th<> IJO\YCr and control of t~e purse in the handB of the people; and 1t could not be claimed that the power over the purse wa ·. in the hands of the people if the po\·:cr to onen and shnt it was in tho hands of th : Con~cil. It w~s an inopportune time, , .. -}LPn the Government had cq1nc back freo:;h from tlw conntrv \Yith an incrca ed 1najority, for the Council' eo att •mpt to do what they propos0d to do. H0 was thoronc;hly satis­fied th.tt th~ action of the Council last year with regard to finance me,snrcs helped very

Hon. G. Pagt-H(mify.]

'il6 Stamp Act [C01JNCIL.] Amendment Bill.

materially the return of the Government \vith as strong a following as they had to-day.

Hon. T. M. HALL: Not as much as the ·Germans.

Ho~. G. PAGE-HANIFY: And if the 'Council insisted upon the attitude which they had taken up that afternoon, they ''~ould very 1naterially af;sist in the carrying oL the referendum which had been promised.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN : You should not obje,:t to that.

Hox. G. P_\GE-HA::'\IFY: He did not object to it. He did not agrco with the motion that the ruling of tlw Chairman Bhould be disagreed with, a' ha believed that ihe ruling "as in ftc,~ordance with the law as laid down by the highest authorit.J" in the British Empire.

HoN. A. J. THYXNE : He would like to say a fow word• on this eubject, which was a perennial one. He had been in the Coun­<>il since 1882, and th<' '1me auestion had arisen frequ0ntly during the time he had been a member of the House. He could support the statement tha·;. the Council had never conceded that they had not the right to amend money Bills. They had nevt'r done that, at any rate, durin11 the last thirty-six years. 'fhe hon. gentleman who had just resumed his seat had quoted the Privy Coun­cil decision. ::vrembers of the co,;ncil in 1885 who were interested in the subject gave as one of their reasons for refusing to accept the decision the hon. member had just quoted tlutt it »as an ex parte decision, ·given without hearing the parties, and that no British court had any right to give a decision affecting the rights of any persons without hearing both parties. The hon. gentleman had road extracts from a one-sided statement prepared by the then Premier. Sir Samuel Grifl1th. which accompanied the reference to the Privy Council. and to which members of the Legis'Iative Council took very bitter exception. The Council had no oppor­tunity of arguin!' the matter before 10h<' Privy CounciL Therefore, they regarded the decision given as a decision which was not arrived at und.,r proper conditions, '1nd from that time up to the present they had

·always maintained the same position. Hon. P. ,J. LEAHY: It was not a decision

which was legally binding.

HoN. A. J. THYNXE : It was not a de­cision; it was only an expression of opinion­and an expression of opinion arrived at with­<)ut hearing argument bv the parti{ls. 'J'he ("ase was ac0ompanied by a one-sided ~tate­ment of the Premier, which was sE'nt through the Governor to the Privy Council, and <:hat staterrHmt contain<?d sOme considerationR which the Council thou;::ht ought not to have been put before the Privy Council.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: \You]d an hon. gentleman lib' Sir Samuel Griffith state a one-sided cast'?

HoN. A. ,J. THYNNE : If th<J hon. centle­man \'"Ou!d read the "tatement of the l're­mier he would ·ee that it 1vns one-c.ided: and that ""as the reason the Council refuc;cd to act upon the opinion given by th(; Pri,-y Council.

The SECRETARY FOR l\.Ir:o;ES : He could only place- the facL before the Privy (~ouncil.

HoN. A. J. THYNXE : The Prc-:1ier shted the case, but FUVe his reasons as W<'II. and the Council had no opportunit:;- of submittin<; replic-· to these reasons to the Prh·y Council.

[Hon. G. Paqe-Hanify.

The statement was sent without the know­ledge of the Council, and the Council had no opportunity of representing their point of view before the Privy Council. He remem­bered very well the advicQ given Ln him by an old parliamentarian, the late Hon. \V. H. Walsh, when he came into this House. The ad,·icc. for whic·h he had alway; felt; grateful to him, was, " Don't you attempt to make "" spcqch for a couple of yeus, be busv in Committee, be readv with 1.-hat ycu' have to say, and sav it in' as few 1\ords --s you can; if your study of Bills shows that you arc- !t 11ractic al and u::-:Pful member you will con gain tin car of the House." He did not ne a ke any l'peech in 1882 or 1883. Hi' firc;t ·,rtPmpt in that direction ·,as en the Land Bill of 1884. There was then unJ,'r discu;;:-sion a very important question, '"·hich :mbsequenllv l2d to a conference bctween the two House·:. In that Bill. which was known as DuUon's Land Bill, it 1vas proposed that the people who h<dd l<·ases of lands nndcr the Bill ·"hould not haYe their rentab in­creased bv wore than 50 ]Wr cent. on the amount fix0d at the previous asse<'.;,nnent. But thev made no provision of that kind for the snlc.ctors. Th<; selector, were liable, on their r€·0 .. ,.e,smcuts, to be ao•pssed 200 per cl'nt. higlwr, and that was one of the excep­tions taken bv what was called the Tory members of th~ Council. 'rhey stood up ,for the interests of the small selector agamst the interests of the big squatter.

The SECRETARY FOR :Mr~ES : There was no La hour part,;· then.

HoN. A. J. THYNI'\E: \Ye were the Labour party then.

The SECRETARY FOR MI~ES : You were the most -democratic party.

HoN. A. J. THYNNE: The:v had insisted upon that amendment, and the Lo~er House objected very strongly to it. and r_t became a question of a conference, at whiCh he, a very junior· member then, had .the honour of being one of the repno>sentat!ves of the Council. It was not unrt'asonable now, a~ter all that lapse of years, to say sorr,etlung of what bappenod at that conference, al­though the discussions were not sl!pposed to bo disclosed. He remembered Srr Samuel Griffith saying, " Do not persi~t in this, and I give you my pledge that either n'.'xt s":s­sion or the session afterwards a Brll wrll be introdu<·'d limiting the increase of selec tors' rents to 50 per cent." The representa­tives of the Council at the conference at once <tccepted that pledge, and .the con~equence was an Act was passed whrch provrded for· the very thing they .asked. That w.as a. case in which the Councrl pressed for rts rrght., and insisted upon them, and the rcsul.t ~f their insistence was the acceptance, mdr­rectly, of a pled;;c fror.n the :Minister. which was subsequently carr~"d out. It ':''as one of the instance~< in whrch the Councrl ought to have the rirrht to interfere-ought to have the right to step in a~d prevent an injus­tic!J or 'vrong or unfn u~ treat1nent to any one scc~ien of t :w rotnn1unit;?; and if they had thro ri!'ht in 1884 to fight for tho prin­ciple o: fair play to th" smaller man,. the)­had equally the right :pow to r•tep rn for f:tir pL,v uncl for reasonable amendment' to cnallc .fr.._,..., Govf:•rLm{'nt t;>.x_,!ion rnC':..tsures to he ,.de>)ted wi.h as little friction and with <' ~ littl~ unf'Jj)nlrrr~ty ~nd aJ lit~ le inC'onve_ni­ence to the trading people of tl;<' commumtv as pos~iblP. The two c·a~es bndged over a. long pc "·iod of time. '',Ild the .position to-day was just a3 f'trong a".; 1t Vi.7 as 111 1884.

Stamp Act [4 JULY.) Amendment n:u. 717

HoN. A. A. DAVEY: So far as ho under­stood it, the goYcrnrnPnt of this country was being carried on under a written Constitu­tion, and there was nothing in that Consti­tution that interfered with the right of the Council to amend money Bills. There was a statement to thc- effect that thP power of initiation belonged to another place. but there was nothing in the Constitution which prohibited the Council from amending money Bills if they thought proper, an-d members of the Council, ;u had been stated by previous spe.akers, had never a.dmittcd the claim of the Legislative As3embly that they had no right to amend money Bilk It was a question that should be settled, an-d it might be a very good question to subrr.it to a referendum of the people. A most remarkable thing in connection with the present Government was that they were not di,posed to trust the people in any mat­ter connected with financt•. Tlwv had intra· duced the so-called Popular Iriiti"tive and Referendum Bill, in whinh thPy propowrl to submit various things to tlw !Jeople fo1· dL•­eision, but thev ·distindlv debarred the refPr­Pnce of any n1attPr of flnnnne to the people. In oth0r ,,~ord~. th0y \\ Pre not prPpar(}d to accept the> peopl0 \; opinion "\':hen it carno to the handling of th0 pur"'" string~. ThC' pre­sent Government \H'r<' not willing to true' th0 people with regard to matt0r of iinan·~\', and they ·wDre not willing to trust tlH' Cc\:u1-cil with re~ard to matters of finalwP. What ·did thcv want? Did thev want a free hand to deni n·ith thP finance,, of thP conntn ·without lr>t or hindrnr·r·n? Sn 'Poq· for a moment that the GoYornmcnt introdueNl a rnca~ur-~ ·whicb propo"-0f1 to tax ('Yerybodv np to 9(', per cent. of their pcSiC"••ions and l<'a\"C thc-m all paupprs. That would be a ~ood ""'~ay to bl'ing aboUt GoYf'Tlll::lC'nt con­trol of everything.

Hon. G. PAGE,HAXIFY: It would be a good way h end the Government.

Hox. A. A. DA VBY: It mig·ht be a good way of ending the GovPrun:.0nt, but it would no~ be unr('asonabl(' fron1 the GoYPrnnwnt Btandpoint. Suppo"c tho ~.\Bsembly intro, ·dnccd a 'Bill which propocc.ed to deprive every indiyidnal in the State of the proper, ties of which he had become lc•;a lly pos­er ssPd un·der the Conc.titution. Had anv hon. gentl01nan on th0 othe1· ~ido thn effror;­trrv to ·UY that thPre .]wuld not b" some pmver that coukl comp in and sa,', ''Nay: stay your hand.''

Hon. G. l'AGE·H:\XIFY: ThP pr'oplc haw that power.

HoN. A. "\. DA VEY: The Gowrnment WPre afraid to trust tlw ]Wople with finan· cial mrasur<'s. The Initiatin• and Referen­dum Bill did not. providr' for the suhmi~­sion of financial matters to the people. It <>xpr0c·.,ly debarred it. There was another point he wished to mak" with regard to the practice of the House of Commons.

The SECRETARY FOR :\'JIXE'l: \V c- want to follow their practice.

HoK. A. A. DAVEY: H<> supposC'd the House of Commons was the most honourable and the most worthy of anv institution in the world, but the British Governn;cnt was carried on without any wri ttcn Constitution. S0eing that thcv had no Constitution, th<' wisdom of the English-speaking world had accepted the Honse of Commons as thp high­<'st authority. Queensland had a Constitu­tion, in which th\l duties of the Government were clearly defined. Suppose they had no

Cmbtitution at all. then there mi<rht be some argument for following the practice of th<' House of Commons, but they had a writ­ten Constitution. It VIas provided by their Standing Ordf'r" that, if the Standing Order,, ·di,J not provide the procedure, then the pro­cc•tlurc of the House of Commom. should be adopted. 'I'hat was quite right, but they lwd the right under the Constitution to deal with those Bill1.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : Do you ignore .. the opinion expressed by the Privy Coun­cil?

Hox. A. A. DA YEY: The opinion ex­pressed by the Privy Council, as had been clearly pointed ont, was given upon an ex parte statement of a member of the Legis­latiY<' AssemblY, and was ba,cd on wrong premises. In a'ny case, certainly the Council had no orportunity of stating its case be­fore the Priyy Uonncil. It was quite right that mPmh:'rs of the Legislative Ass0mbly should stand up for their rights, and it was within the bounds of po.esibility, no matter how straight or how just any member of that Honsl' might be, that he v;ould have a •ceneral prejudice which would direct him to take' it certain ono-_sid~d view of the ques­tion.

Tl10 SEOPcT.\RY FOR ;\Il~ES: You know. as a matter of far+, that tlw Chairman's rulinil' is constitutionally sound. ..

Hox. A. A. DA YEY: HP firmly believed· that the Chairman': ruling was constitu­tionall~ I'.Tonrr.

The SECRET.\RY FOR :VIrxES : It is Prus>ian tvrannv if vou r arrv the mr '.ion "That the (~hairritan'sL rnling· be dii;"lagrecd to." I an~ glad we haYe a Chairman "·ho will stand up for governnwnt accor·cling to parliamen­tary prnctice.

Hox. A. A. DA VEY: ·what sort of tyrann:." would it be if this GoYcrnm0nt, or any oth<•r Government. by reason of baYing been elected for three v<>ar ·, attempted to place on the pooplP of thE' State ·omething in tlm wa ,. of t.cxation which was manif<>stlv un­iust? That '\Vonld b1' Pru~Jiauism. 'llhe Go­VPr'lmcnt ".l!lted Prw ·-ianism. They wanted Jo do awav with the Conncil. That was Prussiani::1111. '.rhey -wantc:-d to do awav ·with the people when it camn to matters of vite.l importanne. That was Prussianism. If they

anted to 0x:an!inn Pru:;sianism they did not; wa.nt to g·o outside this StatE', and they did not wrnt to go outside Parliament.

Hon. R. SnrxER: What do you mean by " Prussi.>ni~rn ?"

Hox. ~\. \.·DAVEY: He meant ruling by forc()--n1aking rnight right, "\vithout regard t,, justice.

Hon. H. Sc:\IXER: vYo saY the people should decide.

Hox. A. A. D.\ VEY: The Governm<>nt WE're afraid to ,Jc the ppople about it. The Government had fiv0 or six measures which were twice rejected by the Council last ses­sion, and during tlw last 0lection there was a good opportunity for the Government to pl11co those m<'asures before the people in the fulfilment of their hypocritical idea of the initiative and rderendum. The Consti­tution clistinctlv provided that the Council had co-ordinate; powN'S with the Assembly. \Yhat about that? It \\Ds only because it suited certain parties in the past that they had made th<> plea about the rules of the House of Commons. That was only brought in for party purposes. With all due respect,

IIo.n . .A . .A. Davey.]

718 Stamp Act [COUNCIL.] Amendment Bill.

he maintained that tbc Chairman's ruling was not corred, and hon. gentlemen would not be ju.:;tiried in supporting it. , The Sr,oRcn~y FOR I.l'XES: If you had been

ewetcd tno ot,wr clay, how would vou have ruled? •

HoN. A. A. DA VEY: That was not a fair que_stion. He. would have given a decision whiCh he considered wonld be correct. The Government had always denied the rio-ht of th" C-:mncil to amend money Bills. The Const1tutwn gave the Council the right to amend money Bills, and the question should bc decided. . So far as he was concerned, he would hkc to sec it submitted to the oovereign people.

Tho SECRETARY FOR MD<FS : I would like to refer to them the question as to whether this Council has any right to be hero at all.

H~N. ~- A· DA VEY: If anyone opposed one m hfe, It was vory easy to sav, "You have no right to live." · ·

[5 p.m.] Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: You do admit there

is a sovereign people?

, HoN. A. A. DA VEY: He did, but the Gover'?ment were not prepared to trust the sovereign people except so far as it suite 1 them.

Hon. R. Sti:UNER: Will you pass t.he Popular Initiative and Referendum Bill?

HoN. A. A. DA Yl<~ Y: So far as he was concerned he would not, unlus it was very seriously amended. l-Ie, perhaps. knew as much about the initiative and referendum as most people. He. ha~ in the past given rea,ons for not passmg It, and he supposed he would be under the neces"ity of repeating hrs reason H<• a:'rt'< d with some of the thing, in it, but he did not agree with the bulk of them. He thought it was a change that would work a groat deal more harm than good.

Hon. R. Su:uNER: It has been proved that the referendum is nearly always conservative by their approviug of this Hou;,e.

HoN. A. A. DAVEY: If the hon. o-entle­man t!wught it was always going to b';, con­servative he would not support it.

Hon. R. SUl\INER: I think the people are more to be trusted than legislators.

HoN. A. A. DA VEY: The hon. gentleman said, by. inference, that the people were conservative.

Hon. R. SUsiNER: Yes, generally.

HoN. A. A. DA VEY: The hon. gentleman w<;mld not advocate. anything that would mmistor to consorvati veness.

Hon. R. SuMKER: Generally so, but when it comes to the time they vote right.

~-ION. A .. A. DA VEY said he was very glad this questiOn had come up. It was one that should be decided, and members of thut side of the House would be perfectly pleased to see it decidod by a ref'crcnce to the sovereign people, about whom they heard so much, and who, as a matter of fact, played such a small pn rt in the minds of a lot of people who profe.ised to be their friends.

Ho;:.;. T. J. O'SHEA: It was with some reluc'1nce that he was supporting the motion to <lisagrec Y ith the Chairman. He felt certain that the Chairman approved of the .attitude which was. ?eing adopted, for the reuson that the Mrmster in charge of the

[Hon . .A . .A. Dave:y.

Bill had said on the previous night that he did not wish to make flc3h of one and fish of another. He said thd, if the principle which hRd been a•dooted by that Chamber with regard to the non-taxation of montblcJ. such as cattle, furniture, etc., whm~ it applied to •ales of pastoral and other !oases, v.as a good one and wa3 to be upheld by the Bill, it should apply to the clau-P they were now seeking to amend. He c,tid if it was fair to one it was fair to the other. If they did not dj~Sagrce with the Ch-airman's ruling they \Yould rol::> the Minister of the orportunity oi rectifying- that inequity. For that reason alone it w.,s the duty of that Chamber to disagree with the Chairman's ruling.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : You can ask the Acsornhly to do it by a specific message.

Hox. T. J. O'SHEA: If that Bill went back without that amendment put in by that Chamber the Assembly would have great diffi~ulty in handiing the matter at all. If their amendment went down as proposed he understood that the Minister would not be averse to a conference in connection with the matter. If there was a conference he felt certain wiser counsels would prevail on both sides.

The SECRETARY FOR MIKES: I said it would be a possible way out of it.

HoN. T. J. O'SHEA thanked the Minister for his suggestion, which was a good one. They would not be doing their duty to PH' section of tax"n:·n if they allowed that amendment to bo rejected now through a mere formality-a mer<' supposed obstruc­tion in the y, ''Y of effecting a remedy where a remedy was needed. Even h<td he disagreed with the princi;Jle, he would say the;. should vote against it on this oecasi<;m in order to effect a remedy and make equit­able to all sections the provisione of that Bill as amended in that Chamber. One class of indivi·rluals should not be tuxed while another cla'·' was allowed to go scot fcee on a similar set of circumstances.

Hon. R. flmrNER: That is not the question before the Committee.

HoN. T. J. O'SHEA: The qu, stion before the CommittPe w"' whdher they should dis­agree with the Chairman's ruling. . The SECRETARY ~·oR MINES : If you don't diqgree with his ruling we may get over this difficulty in another way.

HoN. T. J. O'SHEA: Perhaps they would. and perhaps they would not. If they did d:3agree, th0 machjner:v was ther€ to get over the rlifficulty. If they did not disagree wit11 the Chairman's ruling they would find it vcrv difficult to alter the injustice which w'u d'Onc in that "Cction. It therefore was the duty of the Chamber, in order that an injustice might be deleted and in order ~hat fair and crnitchlp treat•nent of <1ll sectwn3 of the cominunitv should h~ the sole object of the Bill, to <!i.sagree with the Chairman's rnling eo that the cnnfcre'1ce to which the Jl.l[inister referred would h"ve an opportunity of d1ccting- the remedy \\ hieh he said should be cffPctcd.

HoN. E. 'N. H. FOWLES: SurPly the mor~ proper place fo;· a dPhate like that ·,;wdd be in the As··e'rlhlv. Whv shnnld hon. members seck to whittle awa·y their own right~, to nbrid~rc tlw principlr \Yhirh· the Council had neY~?r co"!cC'c1ed as a House?

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: That is what they were sent here for.

Stamp Act [4 JULY.] Amendment Bill. 719

HoK. E. vY. H. :b'OWL:ES : While thev were members of that Council he took it the.Y v ould seek to uphold all the privileges and rights of the Council. They eertainly 0}lf?h~ not to seck to vvhittlc a'vay their own ngnt· •.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORK: Remember thev are tho "13" club. ·

Hon. H. C. JoK:.:s: vYe are getting some more shortly.

Ho"!. E. W. H. FOWLES: If any objec­tion was taken, the right place was in the other Chamber. That ha·d been done times without number.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : Do vou mean to say a man sacrifices his principles because he has been nominated to this Hon·e? The Hon. Mr. Sumner, the Hon. Mr. Crampton, and the other members believe in the aboli­tion of this Home.

Hon. A. A. D.WEY: They should not ha Ye been sent here if they do not believe in it.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: While the House existed, they had certain rights.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : This is not one of them.

HoN. K W. H. FOvYLES: It is. The SECRETARY FOR MINES: That is where

we differ.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES : They had the right of amendment, whether the Assembly accepted the amendment or not.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: That is the point on which we chalknge you, and you have not g1ven any authority to prove it. Not one _hon. gentleman has quoted an authcnty m support of his contention.

Hon. T. 11. HALL: \V e are our own authority here.

The SECRETARY FOR Mr:-ms: You have the authority of a majority in this House.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: The Minister quoted Sir Samuel Griflith. He would quote the Chief Justice of the Hio-h Court (Sir Samuel Griffith) against him;'elf. At page 672 of " Quiek and Garran" on " The Con­stitution of the Australian Government," the ar&"ument was summed up by Sir Samuel 'Gnffith, as follows :-

"Whether the mode in which the Senate should express its desire for an alteratic,n in money Bills is bv an amend­ment in which they r<:>que~t the con­cur:·ence of the Houcc of Representatives, as Ill other cases, or by a suggcction that the desired amendment should be made in the latter House as of its own motion, eeems to me to b" a matter of minor importance.'' ·

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : Yes, but you arc dealing with an elective Chamber.

HoN. E. W. H. FO\VLE3 said h- would dr·al with that later on. The quotation pro-ceeded to say- ·

"A strong Sc>nate willcomnel attention to its sugg: ~tio~lS; a \Y.aak One will not in i,~t on :its arnendments.''

So that disposed of that point. The Ministc·r f:_:'l.id they \Verc dcalin; vvith an cL- tivo Chnuber. In the Constitution of the Federal Par~iarnent tb 'l'P was an cxpr'~'<i provtsron aga1mt the Senate arnending money Bills.

The SJif'RETAHY ron J\/frxEs: That is a strong '1rgument against a nominee Chamber amend­ing them.

HoN. E. W. H. FO\VLES: No, it was a strong argument that they had the right to do it, since it wr.s not prohibited. If t~wy wantred to prohibit it, they did so. Section 53 of tho Comtitution said-

" The s,,noL• may not amend proposecl laws irnpo .. rng taxation."

Hon. R. Sr=IXEH: Lloyd Georgc would not allow the House of Lords to do it, anyhow.

The SECRETARY FOR MIXES : \Vh5 did you throw this Bill ou \ last year, if you could amend it?

HoN. E. W. H. FO\YLI~S: They had amended monev Bills very frequently. They already had amended a dozen clauses in Bill' deaiing with taxation; and if they stopped there it ,,,ould be an utter patch­'vork.

Hon. P. J. Lnny: OnE' reason is that last year the deficit had not actually accrued.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWL:ES: And the other reuson was that the countrv looked to that House to amend the taxat'iou proposals of the Government.

Hon. R. SF~!XER: Why, then, did they not put another party in power?

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: They would have, but for reasons which vou know all about.

Hon. B. FAHEY:. And which you will not acknowledge.

HoN. E. W. H. FO\'i-LES: As a. matter of fact, the principle was plain that they could net originate a money Bill there.

Hon. R. Su;.rNER: If they went to the country to-morrow they would get a bigger majority.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: The Govern­ment could send that monev Bill to a referen­dum at once, with its other taxation pro­posals, if they wished.

Hon. R. SniNER: This kind of thing brings about disaster, and revolution.

HoN. E. W. II. FOWLES: Good legisla­tion must result horn a harmonious co-opera­tion between the two Housrs. \Vhat happened if they .,aid they were not going to m<1ke a single amendment in a money Bill? The Bill had to be rejected in toto, or accepted in toto. No sane man would accept that Bill in toto. In fact, the Minister himself had a sheaf of amendments on the Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I explained that they were circulated inadvertently.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: They had to accept them in toto.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: Oh, no. HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: It was very

hard for them to know the purely mJchinery provisions in that Bill. If they took the machinery provisions they would find that money hinr,~d on them. It was ab,,olutdy a 1noncy rneasure. .

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : The amend­ments I moved, and the amr ndments which 'vcro cjrrulatcd in n1y name, wcro arnend­ments that would be inserted in the Legis­lati> c A''''mbly on further consideration.

Hon. P. J. LBHY: Still, they had some­thing to do with money.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: Probably ours will meet ·the same end.

I-Iox. E. W. H. FOWLES: What would happen if thev ne-. er touched any Bill, and nrvcr made itny suggestion or amo!ldmcnt with regard to it? If they did the1r duty to the country, what .would they do with the

Hon. E. W. H. Fowles.]

Staillp Act [COlJ::\CIL.J Alil 1 .:1( tt Bill.

money Bills in front of them, if they had Bither to accept or reject them in toto·: There was only one thing which the people would do, and that was to throw them out. There was only one thing which tha.t House could do, and that was to throw them out. But t!JPy did not wish to put the Government in any embarrassing position.

Hon. R. SuMNER : You do worse ; you mutilate the111 so that nobodv can accept them. •

ThP SECRETARY FOR :\1INES : YOU need not mince matt0rs. You are not game to throw them out.

HoN. K W. H. FO\VLES: Ho was sure the :\1inister clid not mean that.

Hon. P. J. LEAIIY: You sav that after we havo pa,.,sed the second raiding. You can safely say it no\v.

The SECHETAHY FOR J\li!<:ES: Let the fight con1e next woek, if you like.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES : If they made any alteratio!l in any taxation Bill, the Go­vermnent mi"ed the crv that their taxation propoi'calb were in jeor)ardy. If the people of Queensland were a~kod by a refcrenoehuu at the present time, .. Do you want to b~ taxed more heavily by the State Gon'rn­lUCnt than vou G.l'e b-eing taxed now~" '''hat would b" the reply?

The i2E~RET.\RY FOrt :\liX! ~ : \Y c put tlw question to them at the last election. and the ]JCOpJc t'ncJorsed OUr ]'Olicy by a nYO-to-One Inajority.

Hon. "\. G. C. HA \YTHORX : "\o. Y on aoke.d them if they v.anted conscription.

The S}:CRETARY FOil }Jr~ES: The people will finally decid '. this nulttcr.

Hon. 11. C. J OXES: \Ve must break down this monopoly.

HoN. E. W. H. FO\VLES: 'l'hc hon. g'cntlr,man said that no authority had been quoted in snpport of the position Utkcn up. llc ·would 1nake one :::.hort quotation .fron1 an excellent littlce book by Mr. Blackmore, who w:1s Clerk of the•. ._bscmbly in South Aus­tralia ior rnauy year,·.

The SEC HET Hl¥ FOR :'IIIliE:S: There are higher authoritie~. than Blackn1ore.

Hon. P. ,J. LEAHY: You have not quoted U.Il\'.

']'he SeCRETAHY FOH :\li!<:ES: Of couroe, I havP.

HoN. E. W. H. F0\1 LES: You quoted .. Kcith," who i>< on both eides on thi:; question.

Hon. G. P.\Gr:-HA!<:IFY: 'l'hcre is no higher authority than the Privy CounciL

HoN. K \V. H. FOWLES: They have given no dcci~ion,

Hon. A. G. C. llAWTHOHN: And thev had to deal with an ex parte statement. '

Hox. KW. H. FOWLES: Would the :\Iini'­h-'r t:ihow an:v decision on the 1natter '! 1'he only evidence that could be produced were a few despatches from the Secretary of State for the Colonies and one opinion. Tho mat· tor was one of procedure, and the Council had broken into that procodnrc frequently during the last three years. He Bubmitted that the l<'isurcrl procpdure of peace might very well be modified in time of war. To put it quite plainly, they knew that amendments in money Bills would not be acceptable in another place, and the Government in the qther place expected them to suggest amena­ments :'O as to make • their money Bills

[Hon. E. W. H. Fowles.

n•asonable. He had no doubt that the As:emhl~· would accept 90 pc•r cent. of the an1entln1Pnts whi{'h the Council 111ade. ·

lion. R. Sl: }f!\EH : Is the Bill a money Bill, to begin with'?

Hox. E. \Y. H. FOWLES: Yl's. Hon. R. St:1I!\ER: I under"tood the Treasurer

to say in the other Chamber that it is not. IIo~l. P. J. LEAHY: Well, if it is not a

nwney Bill, what is all the argument about'? The SECRE1'ARY FOR :\liXES : The Treasurer

said that the increased revenue \\·ould be yerv small.

lion. P. J. LEAHY: lJ, im-ited us to make· .anlen<.hnr_:.nts.

Hon. T. J. O'SHEA: The MinistE'r hi,n;e!f flaid it was not a tax~d ion rneasurc.

The SECREr.\RY FOR ::'di:s'ES: It is a mcamro to adjust taxation.

llox. E. \Y. H. FOWLES: B!ackmore was a yaJuablo authoritY, because the Constitu­tion of South .. :\. ustr"alia was yery si1nilar to 1 hat of Queen,land-it had the same limita­tions and rc,trictiom. He took it for gmntecl that the• Council coukl make amendments in rnoncy Bill·:, the ont~ question being :\S to, whet!; er the' c\'~' ,,n1bly >roulti accept them. On pav;L' 275. h:} sa.i{l~

" Shocdd the Council return a mono: Dill with an amt•ndment. the llonse will uot agT<~e thereto, and. ,-,Till 0ither luy .•. idc 'rhe Bill. or cetum t)e Bill with re~ .. n1s fo. d{sagT··eing to such u.:nend­

'mc nt. Should th~' Council insist. the Bill will bP laid asi·k. and aucth:._'r of a siinilar na.turc int1·ochH ~'d. Hnt it has of b1.tc vcar~ becouw tl ·~! establi~ l-H'd cus~orn for tEe Lczi'Jlntl·\ f.' Council not to atten1pt to ~ ,ncnd Bills of thi::; cla~ e:, but ro ro­tnnl the Bill wir:, a memor:,nclum of a :--uggestion of ar.tJeLdnlcntJ in a IDC''""age desiri11g tlk concur_:_·ence of the l-Iouse therewith."

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: That is, in fact, >Yhat \Yl' are doi!1g.

Ilon. A. G. C. llA\C.TIWHX: Do you think tho ~\s~clnbly will acc"·llt the Bill in t~w forn1 wo send it to them'?

l-Ion. P. J. LL\HY: \\-P ·do not caro \Yhat narne YOU call it b:v.

HoN: E. W. Jl. i<'O\YLES: Jmt one fin-tl al'guinl'nt, 1vhit'h hP waB sure the ::\Iini:::.ter W·0uld see th(~ C'ogcncy of. On 1vho!,,_, s!~oul­dcrs would r · t the r<>spon··ibility of reJOC~­in" the Bill if the Council put m therr an~endnwnts '? If th•' ~-h embly would not accept aiTIPndrnents fron1 the Counc:il, the onlv alt('rnatives ODen to the Coun"'Il ':vere to )1a's tlw Bill as it stood. or to rcj:ct it as it stood. The Niini,ter. probably m1wrttmgly, would· throw unun tlw Council the "~hole ruponsibilit;~· o( rejL'C:ting the Bill. But,. if it wore rcturm'd to the other House wrth amendn1nnts, where \Ya'.·:: the onus then'!

The SECHETARY FOR :\IIXES: Do you re· ally \Y,,nt to paes the Bill at all. or do. ::ou want to kill it bv am nclnHnts '! The kmdest way to kill a do: i,; net to torture him.

Hon. A. G. C. }1.\ViTHOilN: I mu't ay ..-vu look tortured. (Laughter.) ~ The s~:cRETA ~y FOH ::..\:liKES : I anl not a dog.

HolS. E. \Y. H .. FO\YLES: If the :'v1inist~,. \Yanted tlw Bill to live, lw should be pre­pared to accPpt son1c a1nendnu:-ni.~.

Hon. G. l'.\GE-HAXIFY: \Ye >Yant n'in­furcernmn.s.

Hon. A. G. C'. H.HYTHOll!\: Will this guarantee them !

Stamp Act [4 JuLY.] Amendment B :zz. 721

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: If the Council put in umendrn<> :b that were not acceptab:o t<> the Assembly then on the Assembly wou1d rest the responsibility for the rejection of the Bill

The SECRETARY FOR ::VT!NES : \\' e would get less revenue under ·vour an1cndrnents than we get under the pri;!Cipal Act.

HoN. E'. W. H. FOWLli.S: Most hon. members who had spoken had said that it was not a question of the personality of the Chairman, but real:y a. question of procedure regarding ta'<:ation proposals. He was sure the Council would be able to complete the Bills, putting 1heit suggestions in the form of amendm0nts, leaving tho.,e amendmor.ts to be rr·jectcd by the other House, or leaving it to the othc·r Chamber to suggest a cm­ference, after which, if the Asscmblv approved of the amendments, the amcncl­ments could be made in the UounciL

'['he SECRETARY FOR MINES: There Is a bigger principle than that at stake.

HoN. '1'. NT~VITT: He rose with a good deal of diffidence to speak on the question. but he thought that the Hon. Mr. Thynne spoke from memory, and evidently his memory had not served him too welL In speakim; of the case th~t was submitted to the Pr:v-- f'rw•cil in 1886. the hon. <rePtlnm"n said the Council did not have an opportunity of plac.nl'" Its vie.vs clearly before the ,p,.;,y Council-m other words, that Sir Sarnuel Griffith made an ex parte stntement. Accord­ing to the p~per on " 'The Relations between the two Houses," by the late Mr. Costin, Clerk of the Parliaments, that was not so.· On page 11 of the paper, he found that a joint Select Committee of both Houses was appointed-

" and on the 17th of November brouQ"ht up their report, recommending, amongst other things-

That for the purpose of obtaining an opinion as to the rE'lative rights and powers of both Houses with respect to money Bills a case be prepared, and that a joint address of both Houses be presented to Her Majesty praying Her Majesty to be graciously pleased t.o refer such case for the opinion of Her Majesty's Most Honour­able Privy CounciL"

Ai.s a result of the conference, two questions were agreed upon to be submitted for con­sideration by the Privy Council.

Hon. E. W. H. Fowr.ES : What was the accompanying memorandum?

Ho!'!. T. NEVITT: It was rather lengthy. The Hon. Mr. Page-Hanify read a portion of it, but, if it were the wish of hon. mem­bers, he would rC';,d it.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: That was only signed by Sir Samuel Griffith.

HoN. T. :"TEVITT: He had not got the legal mind of the hon. member.

Hon. E. W. H. Fowr~Es : You can paint a house either red or blue. It is only the covering paint.

HoN. T. NEVITT: The covering letter written by Sir S1muel Griffith did not paint either one side or the otber. He made a statement of fact, a.nd asked the Privy Council to decide the question at issue. He

1918-2Y

was then practically the representative of Her Majesty in Queensland.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY : The Council never saw that letter before it was sent. That is what the Hon. Mr. Thynne was referring to.

HoN. T. NEVITT: But even if the Council did not put their case, it was put before .the Privy Council as clearly as it was poss1bl<e> to put it because, after all, it was only a: statement of fact. ]\'ow, what were the qu-es­tions submitted to the Privy Council? 'l'hey were two in number-

" 1. Whether the Constitution Act of 1867 confers on the Legislative Council powe. s co-ordinate with those of the Leg .. islative Assemblv in the amendment of all Bills, including money Bills.

" 2. Whether the claims of the Legis­lative As,cmbly, as set forth in their mesoage of the 12th November, are we!' founded."

1'he answer to those questions was contained. in a letter, signed " Harry Reeve," addressed from the Privy Council OfficB to the Colonial Office on 3rd April, 1886. The answer was given in these words-

" Agreed humbly to report to Her Majesty that the first of these questions should be answered in the negative, and the second question in the affirmative."

The po,ition then was exactly tho same as that in which they found themselves to-day.

Hon. E. W. H. FowLES: A "Yes-No" answer.

Hon. W. R. CRA:NIPrON: A "Yes and No" answer. (Laughter.)

HoN. T. NEVITT: As a layman, he had to accept the authority of the Privy Council, even before the authoritv of members of thB legal profession in that ·chamber.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN : That was only an opinion-not a ruling. Who constituted the Privy Council on that occasion?

HoN. T. NEVITT: The letter said-" Sir,-I am directPd by the Lord

President of the Council to acquaint you, for the information of Earl Granville, that the Lords of the Judicial Committee have procReded, in obedience to Her Majesty's Order of Reference of the 8th March, to consider the pet'tion addressed to Her Majesty in Council by the Legis­lative Council and the Legislative A;sembly of Queensland, which was transmitted to this office, with a letter from the Right Honounble Sir Frederick Stanley, on the 3rd February last past."

Surely the authoritv of tho"e gentlemen ought to be accepted ag'idnst the authority of any member of that Chamber?

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: The present Privy Council would not look at an ex parte· < tse v;ith respect to the abolition of thE>· Council. They suggested that they must have both sides represented before them, and have the case properly argued.

Hol<. T. NEVITT: In 1886 the case for both sides was before the Privy Council. If the hon. member were sent to appear before the Privy Council to represent his side of the Chamber, he (Mr. ~evitt) guaranteed that the hon. member could not more clearly define the position tai<Pn up by those he rBpresented than the position as set forth in the two questions submitted to the Privy

Hon. T. NevUt.]

722 Stamp Act [COUNCIL.]

Council in 1886. That being so, he could not see. a.ny other course open but to uphold the rulmg of the Chairman.

HoN. B. F AHEY: Every hon. member 'hould express his views , on this quc,tion 'l'hey h;1d heard all the legal members o~ the subJt;ct. The question at issure involved a mo_st .'-mportant principle concerning the Constrtuo~on of the Council. He believed the speech of the hon. member who had just sat down, as well as the speeches of some ,o~her h,o,n. members, was not strictly in order. lhe questwn before the Council was ,whet.her the ruling of the Chairman should be drsagr,,cd with or agreed to. He did not 1mow that there was any hon. member who rPspected the Chairman more than he did or ':V~O I<:alised. his high qualifications for th~ P?Sltlon m whiCh hon. members had placed 111ffi.

. But. they must remember that no man was mfalhble. if they considered that the ruling of the Ch":irma':' was incorrect, they were perfectly nght m telling him that it wrrs

not acceptable to the Committee. [5.30 p.m.] The Secretary for Mines had

treated the Committe,, to a long and very able speech on constitutional ques­tions, and in support of his contention had invoked the aid of high authorities. He (Mr. Fahey) had no idea that a question of this kind was going to be introduced and he was basing the remarks he now 'made upon what he considered was good common sense, and upon what he had heard from members on both sides of the House. The :!Yiinister denied to the Council any right to amend money Bills. He defied the hon. gentleman, and any other hon. gentleman in the Chamber who agre&d with him, to stand up. i~ his _Place and point to one single €tatute exr~tmg m any part of the British Empire whiCh denied the Council the right to amend money Bills. A comparison had been made between the Constitution of Que.;:nsland and the Cons_titution of England. 'rhe English Conetituhon was an unwritten Constitution but notwithstanding the fact that it was a~ unw~itto_n Constitution, it was the envy and admrratiOn of all the nations of the world. The Constitution of Queensland was in black and white. The Mini;;ter and his colleagues in the 'Cabinet and the party behind them read that Constitution and observed its be­hests when it suited them but when it did not suit their intentions they wer{l in the hands of the caucus, and the caucus set the ConstittJtion aside, and when they could not set it aside they trampled upon it. Why should not people respect the Constitution und{lr which they lived?- He said fearlessly that the unwritten Constitution of En,.land was the admiration and envy of the world, and that the Constitution under which we liv£d was, if possible, an improvement upon that Constitution, and was based upon that Constitution. How did the Minister and his party treat ou'r Consfituiion? They trampled upon it, or set it aside, or ignor<:d it. How had the Constitution been treated by the Government during 'their administration of the affairs of Queensland? How did the Government obtain the right to buy sta­tions? How ilid they obtain the right to e;;tablish 'factories all over the country? How dicl they obtain the right to establish butchers' shops? They were doing all those things without the sanction of the Consti. tution, which was the Parliament cif the countrv. The 'Government did not administer the affairs of the country constitutionally. Why, then, ,did 'the Hon. the Minister invoke

[Hon. T. Nevitt.

the Constitution in this instance? He should le_t sleeping dogs lie. The Mini,ter simply d1d what he was told to do. If the Ministry did what they were allowed to do under the Constitution, they would justify their exist· e:r:;ce and position as a Cabinet and a Govern­ment. It was the system under which they were governing the country that he objected to; and it was that system which would ultimately bring them to grief if they were not careful. Tht;: Constitution must be ob· served.

Hon. R. SuMNER: That is what we say.

HoN. B. F AHEY: Why, then, did the hon. member, and thos~ with whom he was associated, not carry out that idea? The hon. member might be one of the dissentients in the caucus, but, if so, he was not allowed to do that. The Council had never ceded their right to amend money Bills. In the matter of legislation the Council conld do anything, but it was another question whether the other House would agree to what they did and could do constitutionally. Hon. l11'<:nber~:l OFtJ0:3ite said that n1e.nbers on this side did not represent the people. He said that for the best part of the thre{l previous sessions the Council was the only representa­tive branch of the Legislature of Queens· land. Members were there by the sanction of the pc oplc. No quc,tion that was ever sub,11ittcd to the people in Queensland, or in Auetmlia, was mo,·e e .. IphaLcally decided by the people than the question n;; to whether the Council was to be abolished or not, and he defied members opposite to place that question before the people again. When the present Government brought the Council before the tribunal of the people and asked them to do away with the Council and wreck the Constitution under which they lived, they were acting against the Constitution, because that Constitution decided that there should bo two Houses of Legislature, one to be a check on the other. Yet the junior House Boug-ht h wreck the sc,nior Hou~e and the Cm;stitution. If the Counc,il h,ad done their <iuty when that· att 'ck was made by the GO\ :•rnmcnt on probablv the best Constitu­tion in the world, they "should have refused to pass any legislation submitted by the Goyernment until they went before the people of c;'u<:> nslard and purged themselves of their treachery against the Constitution. He might be out of order in dealing with that qu:estion-(lrtughter)-but the remarks made by mcr1bers opposite had !eel him to make the',e observaticns. No memlx>r of the House wished in any way to hamp: r the Minister in his de,, ire to carry out his dufes. The hon. gentleman was very courteous, and very obliging, and ho was also able. (Heer, hear!) He had justified his position in the House more than once by the clear manner in which he had placed his views before the Com:lCil, and he had slwwn himself to be able and tac~ful. Ho thought the hon. gentleman c0uld not be improvr,d upon by h;s party as the representative of the Government in that Chamber. But the action that was being taken by members on this side of the House was in no way discourteous to the hon. gentleman. The question before them involved the greatest constitutional question that had ever come before th!l House-the question as to whether the Council had ever ced<>d its right to amend money Bills. The "Council had neved ceded that right. and no Act on the etatute-book of England could be quoted to show that the Upper House could not amend a money Bill. But it was another

Sta"rrlp Act [4 JULY.] Arnendme?.t Bill. 723

question whether another placE' would ac­cept their amendments or not. That was the pomt at i:• uc.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: They will, if they have .my ,.ense.

HoN. B. F AHEY: He knew that the ~1in;stry h'ld eens<', and a good deal of ability, but they were not allowed to exer­cise that sense and ability. It was the sv,-tc' fore .. d on th< m that wa' at f 1ult, not the GoY< rnL1en'. \Vhy ~hould the Council, if the Gn~ _;l', ue!lt follo,vecl .a s-.;: -tern which was not r~coomised bv the Constitution. vield to their d--'<:Jlre- to i~pose unnec'·'~,sary hftras"ing legi."' ttion unon the people of the State? He contended that they were perfE'ctly justi­fied in thE' >.ction they were taking·, and he was '<OFY that they were compelled by their ·en' • of duty to' differ from the Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN: Before the question is put, I should like to make reference to some past hi tory. On the 14th December, 1915, when the Income Tax Bill was beforE' this Chamber, in order to make my position per­fectly clc>ar, I made the follov,'ing remarks:-

" I think we should try and under­stand on~ anoth.;r as quickly as possible, because we have before us a Bill which deals with taxation, and another one mmin-2 on which also deals with taxation. IiJ is JU;t as well to know what powers we have in making amendments in this Bill.

" The question of the right of th~ Lrgislative Council to amend money Bills has bCJen a source of much debate in this Chamber in the past,. and the posi­tion which was generally taken up was that the Legislative Council, being a co­ordinat-e branch of the Legislature, had full power to amend all Bills brought before it, but was expressly prohibited by the Constitution from introducing a mon<'y Bill, and, consequently, with in­torfNing with the incidence of taxation.

"'rh0 dcci"ion of the Privy Council that. as i'; was not in accordance with the practice adopted by the House of Lords t amend money Bills, it would be inad­Yi, -'tble for the Legislative Council to do so, was nevr.r agreed to by this Council, and money Bills have been frequ0ntly amended by this Chamber. These amendment·> were invariably rejected by the LQgislative Assembly, on the ground that they were a breach of the privi­leges of that Chamber, and if the Legis­lative Council did not insist on its amend­ments it was expressly statfld in the mes­s tge returning the Bill to the Assembly, that the Legislative Council, while not insistiw~ on its amendments, did not waive its right to make such amendments.

"This view of the question I have alw.tys upheld, and, therefore, I am prepared to receive any amendments which do not affect the taxation pro­posals of the Bill.

"The question which crops up is, Does this paragraph, which the amendment propoSes to omit. affect the taxation proposals of this Bill? To my mind it does, because it will certainly affect the amount of revenue received as public revenue if the paragraph is omittflrl. Therefore, I do not think that the amend­ment is in order."

And the .1mendment was not put. There

were other amendments proposed which were ruled out of order on the same ground, the Chairman ruling-

" That the propose•d amendment would affect the incidence of taxation and ·there­fore should not be put."

It has a !ways been the practice in thi,; Council to respect, as much as possible, rncney Bills and not amend them, and to respect very much the incidence of taxation.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: They have never conceded their rights.

The CHAIRMAN: They have never con­cede-d their rights, but as a matter of custom they have always allowed the objection of the Chairman to hold..

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: We overruled the Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN : So far as my memory serves me-and I have been in this Chamber now !'or thirty-two years-my own two rul­ings in 1915 "ere the only eases where the Chairm<m's ruling was dissented from, although amendments had been proposed on money Bills. I, on one occasion, proposed an amendment which did not in the slightest degree uffcet the money pa.ct of the Bill, and the Chairman <~t once said, " This is a monev Bill and I cannot accept your amendment as it is not in order."

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: There is nothing personal in this at all.

The CHAIRMAN: I kno\v there is nothing personal, but I want to show that it has been the custom of the Council to respect money Bills and not make amendments to them when the amendments affected the incidence of taxation. In 1915 I laid down a course which. I have followed ever since, and for that reason I object to this amendment be­cause it interferes with the incidence of taxation.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: The Council made an amendment in 1915.

The CHAIRMAN: I want that thoroughly understood, and I shall be- verv pleased if the Council will give its decision, because thE' matter has caused me a great deal of worry and. thought.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : You will be in tho right with the minority.

HoN. R. SUMNER: He thought the fight betwer·n the two Houses had to come, althouo-h he did not think it desirable to have it on the question of the right of the Council to amend money Bills. While the Council had always insisted on that right, he thought the Hon. Mr. Hawthorn would a"'ree \>iith him that it was not in conson­a~ce with the -decisions given by the Secre­taries of State in the old eountry.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: Quite in accord with the practice of this Council.

HoN. R. SUMNER: The Government had be<'n re-elected by the people to introdu?e certain measur-es, and then they were met Ill the Council with an opposition determined to throw those mea~ures out.

lion. E. W. H. FoWLES: The Government ·want some of these amendments.

HoN. R. SUMNER: The Chairman's rul­ing was correct, as it was <'~greed by all

Hon. R. Sumner.]

724 Stamp Act [COUNCIL.] Amendment Bill.

constitutional authorities in any part of the Brit;,h dominions that the Legislative Coun­cil had no right to amend money Bills.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: That is an opinion entirely.

HoN. R. SUMNER: He thought it could be proved. He knew the Coqncil had always asserted that rig-ht, but that did not say they possrsoed the right. He thought the decision of the Privy Council gave finality to the question

Queetion-That the Chairman's ruling be disagreed to-put; and the Committee divided:-

Hon.

Hon.

CoNTENTS, 17.

T. C. Beirne A. A. Davey B. Fahey E. W. H. Fowles A. Gibson G. \Y. Gray T.M.Hall A G. C. Hawthorn P. J. Leahy

Telle1·: Hon.

Hon. C. F. Marks E. D. Jlliles T. ,T 0' lwa A. H. f'arnell W. Rtephens A. .T. Thynne F. 'fnrnrr A. H. Whittingham

P. J. Leahy.

NoT-CONTENTs, 7.

W. R. Crampton Hon. G. Page-Hanify A .. T. ,Tones I. PrTPI H. C .. Tones R. Sumner T. Nevitt

Teller: Hon. R. Sumner.

PAIRS.

Contrnts-Mr. Dunn, Mr. Nielson, Mr. Curtis, M;r. Groom, Mr. C. Campbell, and Mr. Cowlishaw.

NotMContents-Mr. Demaine, Mr. Courtice, Mr. McDonald, Mr. Purnell, Mr. Riordan, and Mr. Bedford.

Resolved in the affirmative.

(.,!uestion restated-In clause 37, ,page 15, on lines 46 and 47, to omit the words-

" and conveyance duty on the considera­tion paid . for the lease, license, and movable chattels included in the trans­action.''

Amendment agreed to.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES moved the inser­ticn, after line 19, page 16, of the words-

" Upon any policy of insurance on wool, tallow, skins, meats, or sugar to be carried both on sea and land.'"

The paragraph in the old schedule imposing a tax of 3d. on policies on wool, tallow, skins, meats, or Ruga.r had been om1tted from the present Bill, and a general clau··e had been put in that on all such policies the stamp <luty was to bo 3d. per cent. The Govern· ment had forgottrm to oxecnpt these claesc, of policies. Ho was sure the Government did not mca.n to put such an increa.se-pro­hably one hundred times the present d'uty­on primary producers. On a policy of £10.000 under the old schedule the rate would' be 3d. under this propo0al of the Govern­ment it would be 3d. per £100, amounting to £1 5s., which v. ao a hundnd ti>nes the amount of the present duty. Yet the :Minister said this was not proposed to be a heev,· reventP-increasing measure. The old sche­dule worked very well and was eminently fair. It rc..d w0rd for word with the amend­ment he .\va~ moving.

Hon. T. 0:EYITT: How many £10,000 poli­ci<·~ a.-re there?

Ho'!. K W. H. FOWLES: There were not many for £10,000, but the amounts were

[Hon. R. Sumner.

quite large when added up, and most of the policies probably would be increased by from 30 per cent. to 50 per cent. ShipmentR of wool, meat, tallow, and sugar ran into big figures.

Amendment agreed to.

HoN. E. \\'. H. FO\VLES s~id that unde1· the heading '' Policies of Insurance," there were quite a number of alterations from thP pre.>ent schedule. :Many of thn·d.l alteration' were an in1provmnont, and the schedule as it stood might be taken to be substantiallY a slight improvement upon the schedule no\\ existing, but there were three minor poinb which he thought the Minicter \\ ould recog­nise the fairness of amending. The old Act provided a duty of 3d. on marine open policies. There was no objection to that, because it W"-S a fair impost and should be paid. Although there was very little chipping in the'"' days, neverthelee .. , nobody objected to paying a fair amount.

Hon. R. Su~rNER: There is mor<' shipping, and tht.·re is ·more value in marine policies now on account of the greater value of the carp-ocs than there eYer v:t'ts in the histcr,· of Queensland.

Ho~. E. W. H. FOWLES: The hon. gentleman knew that. so far as the Australian co" .,t was concerned, there wa·5 very little sh:pping at the prc:ent time. He moved the insertion of the word " other " after the word " all " on line 20.

The SECJ!~TARY FOR MINES: That is Ull­necessary. The word "other" follow J the wotd " policjes " already.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: The amend­ment might make the wording a little awk­W'trd, but it would be an improverne:Jt. The point with regard to marine open policies wae that up to the pr0sent time declarations had been combined under one policy. Th<'

ma.rine open policy undN the old [7.30 p.m.] 1\ct carried a certain impost for

evcrv £100. There was no hard­ship in that. The hardship came in when every dec174 ration, no n1attPr for ho\v small an amount, had to carrv the fiat rate. Tha.t certainh· \vould be ~nfa.ir. If tho goods covered· b)' a declaration w~re only worth £5, they would have to pay the full fiat rate. He did not think the Gm·ernment meant that. The old ad valor< m ec:a le was much f£ irer, and, in order to revert to th0 prPsent schedule, ho intended to move the omicsion of the \YOrds ' declaration under" on line 25. In order to make ready for that amend­ment he ~vas novs· moving the an1endn1ent on line 20.

The SECRH.\lW FOR ::\1INES: .\l! the other amendments arc consequential.

Hox. E. \Y. H. FOWLF.S: About i'ix of them W' re comequential on that.

Amendment a!l,Tecd to.

HoN. E. IV. H.' FOWLES movr'd the in­sertion, after the word " by," on lino 25, of the figure " (1)."

Amenclment agreed to.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES movud the omi,sion, on line 25, o' the words " declara­tion under." The policy would carry _the impost, but not every separate doclaratwn.

Stamp Act [4 JULY.] Amendment Bill. 725-

HoN. R. SUMNER: What would be the •t'ffeet of the amendment'! Supposing he took out an open policy for £1,000, he paid the stamp duty on £1,000.

Hon. E. \V. H. FowLES: Yes, 3d. on every £100.

HoN. R. SUMNER: When that policy was worked out, he started again. If the amendment were agreed to, if he only ·declarod for £1, would he have to pay 3d. stamp duty?

Hon. R'. W. H. FowLES: Yes, 3d. on every declaration.

Amendment agreed to.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES moved the in­·<'rtion, after line 25, of the following:-

£ s. d. " (2 ) Dy any time policy, or

inBtrument of guarantee, or in­demnity whereby any insurance is made upon any ship, vessel, or upon any goodb, or merchan­dise, or other property on board of any ship or vessel, or upon the freight therpof for any period or voyage ... 0 0 3"

The amendment dealt with the ordinary time policy, which should carr0 some impost. It had appeared in the original Dill, though l1e thought it was a li l;tle out of place. It had been left out in another place, but he thought it ou;;ht to be reinstatod.

Amendment agreed to

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES moved the in­sertion, before the word '' exceeding," on line 31, of the words "for any term or period." Those words appeared in para­graphs (1) and (2), but were apparently omitted .ram paragraph (3). He thought •hey had been left out inadvertently, and the amendment wou:d merely make the three paragraphs uniform in phras,,ology.

Amendment agreed to.

HoN. E'. W. H. FOWLES moved the omis­'"ion, in line 33, of the word" currency." The word was redundant. It did not appear in paragraphs (1) and (2), and there was no reason why it should be inserted in paragraph (3). If it wore retained, it might lead a -court to give a diffHent interpretation to paragraph (3) to the interpretation it placed <m para•Yraphs (1) and (2).

Amendment :tgreed to.

HoN. K W. H. FOWLES movod the omis­'ion, on lines 34 and 35, of the words-

£ 8. d. " (4) On every renewal or con­

tinmtnce thPreof, for every £100 or fractional part of .£100 ... 0 0 3"

He di·d not know what was the object of inserting that paragraph, unless the Govern­ment wished to sweep in a regular harvest of small amount; for everv renewal or con­tinuance of every policy. "He did not think that was the idea of the Government, and they would be the first to protest against it, as it wonld affect every policy issued by the State Insurance Office

Hon. R. SUlllNER: I do not take out a fresh policy every year. I merely renew my policy. If those lines nre struck out, I shall pay no fresh tax at all.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES : The paragraph would impose an annual renewal charge of

3d. on every policy. The average duty on every fire policy was lls. L' a renewal charge of 3d. had to bA paid, it would be paid out of the 1h That was equal to 6d. in the £1, which meant imposing a tax approximately equal to 100 per cent. of the present income tax.

Hon. '.r. J. O'SHEA: Of ~he grcss income, too.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: Yes, of the gross income. It was just another instance of the Government not lookng into the details of their proposals before submitting them to Parliament.

Amendmt_nt agreed to.

HoN. E.. \V. H FOWLES moved the omis­sion of lines 36 to 41-

" Provided that in the case of an in­dustrial accident policy or personal acci­dent po~icy where a weekly payment is made as a premium and such payment is continued, or where the premium is paid for any period Ios~ than a year and such payment is continued, the payment for the renewal or continuance cf any such policy shall be ma.de each year."

That was a consequential amendment.

Amendment a([reed to.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES sai·d he had intended to move the omission of lines 42, 43, and 44, which read-

" NoTE.-The duty upon a renewal or continuance thereof may be denoted by an adhesive stamp, such adhesive stamp to be cancelled by the person issuing such instrurnent. :'

There -,, ould probably be no need to omit the whole of the note, so he merely moved the omission of the words " a renewal or con­tinUance thereo ·," with a view to in3erting the wor,ds " a, policy of insUl ance other than life insurance." It was partly a con­"equential amendment. In Ol'der that hon. members might be seized of the meaning of tht' amenclment, he would point out that it proposed to restore to some extent the adhesi-ve stamp. On the previous day, the Committee negatived an amendment which had for its object the retention of the adh<~ive stamp. He felt that the rejection of the amendment would cau>e consternation, and it would certainly cause a tremendous amount of inconvenience to business people. One hon. member said that policies were only issued in Dricbane, Rockhampton, and Townsville, and that by some companies they were only j,zued fro:n the head office in Brisbane, and therefore it would be very easy for anyone to run up to the Stamp Office and get his policy stamped. He (Mr. Fowlos) had taken the trouble to make in­quiries, and he found that policies were also issued in such placPs as Cairns, Charters Towers, and Maryborough, where were were no branches of the Stamp Office. Lifn policies had to bear an impre;,sed stamp. There was no need or hurry in the case of a life policy, but there was tremendous hurry in many cases in connC'ction with other pi) ieies, and it would not be possible in such cases to have policies stamped before the ship­ment o ~ the goods insnred.

Suppooing a f<1rmer was taking out a policy on his crops, or a trader was taking out a policy on goods in transit, and he J;lad to get an impressed stamp on that pohey,

Hon. E. W. H. Powle.~.J

726 Stamp Act [COUNCIL.] Amendment Bill.

what would happen? The man would make his proposal one day, and the next day he woukl pay his premium and get his cover note, and e, fortnight afterwards he would get his policy from BrisbanB. He was sure that the more the Government looked into the matter, the morB rea·dily would they accept the amendment. The statement was made the previot~s day that in no other State in the Commonwealth were adhesive stamps put on policies. He had made in­quiries, . and he found that in every State in the Commonwealth, except Victoria, the tax on policiBs wad paid by adhBsive stamps. In Victoria they had no stamp duty on policies, but merely made a fiat charge of 3 per cent. on the gross prBmiums.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The reason wh:v he had not offered any argument against this and other amendmBnts proposed by thB hon. gentleman was that they were distinctly out of order.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: The Committee has said not.

The SE.ORETARY FOR MINES: It did not matter what the Committee said. There was anotho" and highBr tribunal that could be appealed to.

Hon. T. J. O'SHEA: Hurrah! Hurry up!

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: Are you going to the people again?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: He just rase to ooy that the previous day the Committee approved of a clause which re­quired that policies should be stamped with an impressed stamp, and that the amendment went back on what the Committee had already agreed to, as now they wcre asked to allow <tdhesive stamps to bB put on policies. The Committee had re-duced the duty on fire insurance policies from ls. to 6d., and had also knocked out the duty of 3d. on renewals. If the hon. gentleman were fair he would endeavour to reetore the original amount of ls. before he dBleted the duty of 3d. on renewals.

Hon. E. W. H. FowLES : I will accept that.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: He was not making any sugge~tion. The Govern­ment wanted the Bill <'tS it was. He did not propose to argue the question, because thBy had alrcady had a fair amount of argument on the ·different provisions of the Bill. Pro­bably some other method would have to be adopted to ensure thB passage of Govern­ment Bills in less time than this one had taken to go through Committee. He did not E<l:V that the arguments had not been beneficial. He had benefited a good deal by the arg-ummts he had heard, though he did not agree with many of them. but the amend­ment now under consideration was, in his opinion. entirelv out of order, and that was the r0ason he did not consider it worth while discussing it.

Amendment agreed to.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES moved that all words. itftcr the word "inserted," on line 14 down to the end of line 29, be omitted. In this provision it was provided that the exemptions mentioned in the subclause '' shall not extend t<J acknowledgments for any sum cattled to the credit of any depositor or

fllun: E. W. H. Fowles.

shareholder in ·any bank." That proposed to stamp every entry in the deposit book of a depositor.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: It is taken from the New South Wales Act.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: He di,l not know how it worked in New South Wales, but it appeared to him that it must be embarrassino· to business mBn, even if it were practic~ble. Under this provision every cross entry in the ledger would have to bear a stamp and the bookkeeping books would become 'stamp albums, instead of book­lweping books. The clans£ went on to say-

" or for or in respBct of any dividend from any bank or joint stock or other comp<tnv on the same being deposited by any pe;·son to the credit of ~ny other pe1·son in any bank, or for or !n respect of any sum paid to the cred1t _?f any person in any bank for rent o; mterest b:v any other person, or for or m respect of any sum deposited."

That might have one good fc>ature, as it would enable the deposit to be traced.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: Without it, you might evade stamp duty. ·

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: Stamp duty would not be evaded because it was not pay­able. \Vhat document was there that cuuJ.d' bear even a starr.p duty? _What would be the obvious result of puttmg an~ther tax upon every bit of rent that was pa1d? Was

there not enough shouting out at [8 n.m.l the present time about the h' .. ,,

~ - rents that werB suppo~ed to b<r paid and the result of the prov1so would be ~n additional 6d. per week for rent. The tax would be passed on. There was­not the slighte~t doubt about that. If th<' Government were out to raise rents by tJ;Iat Bill they would make the rents so h""h finally that they could not be raised. HP did not know that the Government would get in very much revenue under that pro­vision and it would only really e:nbarass the tr'ading community.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: There was_ no doubt that the Government had exerCised very considerable ingenuity in regard to the number of things that they had taxed. The Hon. Mr. Fowles's reference to the _matter reminded him of the time Dean Sw1ft was in Ireland, and he was talking to the Lord Lieutenant's wife, who, naturally, was great]) admiring the Irish scenery, and wet;t so far as to admire the climate, and s_aid what good air the:v had in Irelan?- Sw1~t's :r;eP)Y was, "For God's sake, don t ment10~ It m England, beeause, if you do, they Will t0;x it." If the Governrr,ent could tax t~e a1r in Queensland they would. Supposmg a squatter or grazing farmer or da1ryman, ~r anybocly Blse in the c~unt~:y, VITot~ to h1s Brisbane agent and sa1d, J am m wa!'t of a little money temporarily, but I w;Il have some money available presently. Will you pay in a couple of hundred poun4s !o mv banking account?" If the a~ent pa1d m that amount to his client's bankmg account, hn would have to pay stamp duty under th,<' Bill. It would not, perhaps, be so !:>ad 1f the agent sold some cattlE'; and pa1d the money into his client's ban~mg account, but in the case he referrPd to 1t was merely an advance. yet he would have to pay sta1p-n dutv. The amBndment would do away With that injustice.

Stamp Act [4 JULY.] Amendment Bill. 727

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The section in the New South vVales Act was exactly similar to the clause in the Bill, and read-

" Provided that this exemption shall not extend to acknowledgments for any sum carried to the credit of any depositor or shareholder in any bank on any divi­sion of profits made by such bank, or for or in resp<~ct of any dividend from any bank o:· )u:nt stock or other com­pany on the same being deposited by any person to the credit of any other person in any bank, or for or in respect of any sum paid to the credit of any person in any bank for rent or interest by any other person, or for or in respect of any sum deposited, the receipt for which would be liable to duty if such sum were paid directly by any person to any other person."

If he sent his clerk down to the bank with a deposit, that would not bear stamp duty.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: Are you sure thev have not repealed that clause in the New South Wales Act?

The SECRETARY F<)R MINES: It is in the present Act.

HoN. R. SUMNER: The amendment would makE' a complete farce of the Bill. He was not in favour of the Stamp Act at all, beeuuse he thought it was one of the worst ways of raising revenue, but as the

8 Act was in existence, surely everyone should pay. They should not leave the door wide open to evasion. If a man paid a sum into his credit at the bank, it should pay stamp duty, and that was all the clause provided for. It would be better to wipe the Stamp Act off the statute-book alto­gether than allow the evasion that was going on every day.

Hon. E. W. H. FowLES: Hear, hear! It is a rr,iserable .form of taxation.

HoN. R. SUMNER: He admitted that, but now it was here they should make it impossible to evade the tax.

HoN. >G. PAGE-HANIFY: He was glad the poor man with the 16-perch allotment had not been brought in again. Hon. gen­tlemen were not fighting for the poor man in that amendment, as it was only the folk with bigger interests who were concerned. If a man had to pay £50 a month for rent, and he paid it by cheque or cash, he got a receipt which had to be stamped. They knew perfectly well, and the taxing officials knew-evidently the taxing officials of New South Wales had found the same thing­that a good many big interests, instead of paying money by cheque or cash, which in­volved an acknowledgment, paid it into the bank, and the party to whom it was due got credit through the books of the bank. There was no need for an acknowledgment, and consequently no starr.p duty was paid. Wh:v shou 'd not all receivers of rent be put' on the same level? He hope·d the Com­mittee would not agree to the amendment, but he did not suppose it would matter much, because he was quite satisfied that all those amendments were going to be fired out in another place.

Amendment agreed to. Clause 37, as amended, put and passed. Clause 38 put and passed.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES moved the insertion of the following new clause to follow clause 38 :-

" 39. Nothing in this Act contained shall be construed to repeal or affect pre­judicially the provisions of subsection three of section twenty-four of the Queensland Government Savings Bank Act of 1916."

The object of the amendment was to free clients of the Agricultural Bank from the necessity of paying stamp duty on loans from the bank.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: He was not opposed to persons who dealt with the Agricultural Bank being free from stamp duty, but it opened up a big question.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: They are free no-w.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: He was quite will­ing to agree that they should continue to be free, but he wished to point out the un­fair competition the ordinary public always had to put up with from the Government. The Government had cattle stations. and had all the advantage of the roads, but they did not pay any local authority rates, and they would not pay any stamp duty, or any­thing else. If a man had dealings with a private bank, his transactions were sub­ject to stamp dut.r, but, if he had dealing~ with the Government Bank, he would not pay stamp duty. All the time the Govern­ment were competing unfairly with private individw.ls. The whole system of stamp taxation ought to be altered.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Under the Gm Prnment Savings Bank ~.et stamp duty would not have to be paid. This amend­ment wes bein'! inserted simply for the pur­pose of making the position absolutely certain.

New clause agreed to.

On postponed clam.e 12-" Amendment of Rection 32 "-

Ho:-~. K W. H. FOWLES moved th0 omis­sion of all the words from the word " and," on line 20, to the end of the clauee.

· The SECRETARY FOR MINES: When they postponed claus<' 12 it was with a view to considering it. after they had given con­sideration to clause 25, anticipating that clause 25 mig-ht be amended in a certain direction. If the hon. mcmhcr amended the clause as he now sug-gc,sted, it would not correspond with clau ·'e 25, as it had been passed by the Committee.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: We had better recommit clause 25.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: 'You cannot now; it is passed.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: We can always re­commit.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: They could do anything in that Chamber. They were the masters of their own destiny.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: He did not wish to press the amendment. He saw they had given the Government more than they deserved.

Clause 12 put and passed.

Hon. E. W. H. Fowlee.]

728 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.]

'The Council resumed. The CHAIRMAN re­ported the Bill with amendments.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES moved­That the Bill be recommitted for the recon­sideration of clause 37, wbclause (i.). He wished to delete the amendment inserted, <On his motion, after line 13, page 13, as follows:-

£ 8. d. " For or relating to the sale

or purchase of any stock or marketable security ... 0 0 6 "

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: What is your reason? The SECRE'rARY FOR MINES: He

wished to rectify his own mistake. He had moved the amendnwnt inadvertently, and he recognised 110w that it was completely out or order. He would like the Bill to be recommitted to enable him to withdraw the amendment. If the Council would not agree to recommit the Bill to negative the amend­ment, he would have to ask them to recommit it for the purpoe~ of inserting the amcnd­ment in another place, as it was inserted in the wrong place.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: He was sure the Minister would recognise that hon. members there never attempted to take any points. He and other members were glad to see the Minister proposing that amendment. How­ever, as he adm;tted he had made a mistake and now desired to correct it, they would allow the Bill to be recommitted.

Question put a.nd passed.

RECOMMITTAL. On clause 37-" <1Jnendments of the

Schedule"-The SECRET.ARY FOR MINES moved

the omission of the following words whieh had been previously inserted after line 13, page 13:-

" For or relating to the sale or purchase of any stock or

£ s. d.

marketable security ... 0 0 6 Amendment ::greed to. Clause 37, as amended, put and passed. The House rr··wned. The CHAIRMAN

reported the Bill with a further amendment, and the report was adopted.

The third re"ding of the Bill was made an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

[8.30 p.m.]

YALUATION OF LAND DILL.

FIRST READING. On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR

MINES, this Bill, received by meosage from the Assembly, was read a first time.

The second reading was made an Order of thE> Day for Tuesday next.

ADJOL'RNMENT.

..

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I beg to move-That the Council do now adjourn. The first busmess on Tuesday will be the third reading of the Stamp ,Act Amendment Bill, to be followed by the second reading of the Snocession and Probate Duties Acts Amendment Bill, and the Income Tax Act Amendment Bill in Committee.

Question put and passed. The Council adjourned at twenty-five

minutes to 9 o'clock p.m.

[Hon. A. J. Jones.

Questio;os.