21/03/2015 Interview: Johann Kresnik ­ TANZFONDS.DE

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CIGARETTE CARDSNOTES ON DANCEAND COPYRIGHTINCOMPLETENESSAS CHANCEFILMINTERVIEW:SHOW YOURLEGACYJANE DUDLEY:DANCE ASPROPAGANDAJEFF FRIEDMAN: ONORAL HISTORYSTUDENTINNEN ZUMTANZERBE

"I WAS WEIGH TO RADICAL FOR BONN"

English translation of the film interview

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A talk with Johann “Hans” Kresnik

(First title)Choreographic beginnings in the ballet studio at Bühnen der Stadt Köln(civic theatres in Cologne) and at Theater Bremen (1967/68)

JK: It was a one­off opportunity… some association… I think it was awomen’s association that money gave for young choreographers during theyear. Marianne Wick, the assistant of Aurel von Milo did it, we soloists tookpart and then at some point I said, I can’t take it anymore – this DaveBrubeck music and footballs hang down from the ceiling. What am Isupposed to do with that? So I said, “OK I’m not gonna do it any more.” Thenwe had the idea of doing our own thing. Good, and then I thought, as I knewLeo Navratil and schizophrenia painting and poetry, he sent me a poemabout schizophrenia that I turned into O sela pei and it became verysuccessful. Then we invited Hemlut Baumann, Neumeier, Pina Bausch andJochen Ulrich also did something. It became more and more successful. Mysecond thing was the assassination of Rudi Dutschke – Paradies?. It wasbanned after the first performance. We couldn’t perform it again because theAPO­movement (extra­parliamentary opposition) was in the audience forthe first time with their flags and long hair. That kind of thing wasunbearable for an opera house, that these long­haired apes should come intothe theatre. Kurt Hübner in Bremen heard about it and he brought me toBremen straight away. But I had worked with Balanchine, Kranko, Agnes deMille, Béjart and with all these famous people, and my question was always:why am I doing this with you here, this stuff without storylines? I mean, it’slegitimate, neo­classical ballet and I have no problem with it, but I’d had avery Socialist­Communist upbringing and I was then in the Marxistmovement in Cologne and I thought we had so many topics before 1945 andafter 1945, and then we immediately brought out the assassination of RudiDutschke. I was called to Bremen immediately afterwards and there werepeople there like Zadek, Fassbinder, Neuenfeld, Minks, Bruno Ganz, JuttaLampe and whoever they were and I thought, ‘Oh god! How can I measureup against these icons?’ I stayed with my political content. I’d had a discussion back then with Kurt

Johann Kresnik im Gesprächfrom DIEHL+RITTER / TANZFONDS

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Jooss – Der Grüne Tisch had been a big influence on me – and Kurt Joosssaid, “Hans go on in this direction, with political ideas and such.” So Icontinued in Bremen with Kriegsanleitung, Schwanensee AG, Paradies?,PIGasUS, the election propaganda between Johnson and Nixon. Back then, ofcourse, the critics were not used to seeing content. They didn’t knowanything. They knew everything about Swan Lake and Giselle but didn’tknow anything about my stuff. There was lots of confrontation with critics. Iused to be someone who wouldn’t shut up that easily and always upped theante. I worked out that the nearer I am to the political content, the more theGerman dance world is interested in it – “so what’s going on there then?”Then came Pina Bausch. She too had an insanely difficult position.Thankfully, I had directors such as Hübner, and Stolzenberg. Pina Bausch aswell as Susanne Linke had Hoffmann Wüstenhöfer as a director. They gavethe choreographers time and opportunity to learn and try things out.Today’s choreographers either have less or none of this.

(Second title)Encounters:Pina Bausch, Reinhild Hoffman, Susanne Linke, Gerhard Bohner

JK: My background is very different. I didn’t go to that Kurt Jooss school inEssen (Folkwang). I had never been to ballet school. I didn’t need it. Thesethree ladies had a very different background. Bohner is again somethingquite different. We spoke with each other but we had very different themes. Icouldn’t really do much with Pina Bausch’s themes and she could probablydo absolutely nothing with mine. But it wasn’t a problem. We were movingin parallel but the content of our work never met. The large theatres werelaughing at us. They said, “Look what’s happening in Wuppertal or Bremen,it’s all rubbish.” Yes, and then suddenly we were successful and then cameHerr Everding and Götz Friedrich. I was asked whether I wouldn’t want tobe the boss in Hamburg or at the Deutsche Oper, and I said, “No, I’m notgoing perform Romeo und Julia and Swan Lake, the classical pieces, on aMonday and then have to put on my experimental works in a backroomsomewhere.” Neither Pina Bausch nor I went. We stayed where we were.Then came Gerhard Bohner, Reinhild Hoffman was in my group, and that’show it all developed. Slowly, the big theatres gave up trying to get us there,as we wouldn’t have gone. How could the things I did at the start of mycareer, or Pina Bausch’s things, be shown at the Deutsche Oper or StaatsoperMünchen? People would have been offended. It was also important for peopleto finally learn that there is something other than classical or neo­classicalballet that had validity. But we only encountered each other at a premiere,over a whisky or a beer and that was essentially it.

(Third title)Choreographic theatre versus dance theatre

JK: There was no German dance theatre back then. I thought in Cologne,“What do I call it when I use dancers who speak no text but have the samecontent as theatre? How do I put it together?” As I’m metaphorical and comefrom drawing and painting, I thought, “Choreography and theatre. Ah!Choreographic theatre.” I developed this name and it remains today. Therewas unfortunately no successor. Then came the phrase “dance theatre” fromPina Bausch. They are two very different things. The critics were veryconfused back then, asking, “what’s that and what’s that?” They only knewclassical or neo­classical ballet. This is how the name came about andbecame fixed, but it had no successors.

(Fourth title)What has changed?

JK: Yes, a few things have changed. The dancers I had available back thenwere mainly classical dancers. I had to bend and mould their bodies so thatsomething different would emerge. Dancers are now extremely well trainedand educated, much better than before. They have modern, they have

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classical and they have new training methods, like when Klinsmann startedusing rubber bands, Pilates and everything else with the German nationalfootball team. We had nothing like that. At most we hopped through theballet studio with a few weights, or put a woman on our shoulders and did afew pliés and such like. All that has changed, but unfortunately thechoreographers haven’t changed and haven’t kept up with the dancers. Thereare great dancers. The figures have definitely changed: They no longer looklike I did back then, like a small muscleman that who probably wouldn’t beable to get to his toes or something. They are all tall and slim and verydifferently trained. I find that great. Hopefully, there will be a few newchoreographers there too.

(Fifth title)From Berlin to Bonn – scandal

JK: My contract was with the Berlin Senate not with the Volksbühne. Itexpired. Momper and others, the culture senator and whoever, came hereand said, “Hans, we’re 45 billion in debt here in Berlin and we can’t extendyour contract.” Then Bonn was at the door and the director said, “Come toBonn, we’re going to rock opera and drama, come join us.” I went, but alsobecause I loved my group and I thought they’d at least have a five­yearcontract. Then we discovered that in Bonn you can’t open your mouth, youcan’t say anything against anyone or anything, and when I did a pieceabout Hannelore Kohl the city almost collapsed. It was a catastrophe forthem. No one noticed that I really wanted to show a politician, like Macbeth,who goes so far that the wife no longer goes with him. She’s left behind, evenby her sons and everything, and I made a martyr out of her. I mean, herdeath didn’t happen out of the blue. That was still more or less acceptable inBonn, but then when I tried to make my mark, for example with revivals ofGoya, but then we had the stuffy set in the auditorium saying, “Heavens!What on earth’s that?” I was too blatant for Bonn. My contract wasn’trenewed after three years. I did the five years for my group so that they hadcontracts, but then they went and threw out the whole group instead of justgetting in another choreographer. It was all related to cost­saving measuresand politicians. The entire group was out along with another 30 people. Thedirector’s contract was extended and he also got BMW. If we have these typesof directors then many dance groups in Germany will disappear.

(Sixth title)Artistic models and role models…

JK: Lots of Fellini films, lots of Pasolini. I’ve already done three pieces aboutPasolini: theatre, choreographic theatre. He created the concept of consumerfascism at the start of the 60s. We have nothing but consumer fascismtoday; it is an exploitive form of capitalism that you can no longer keep upwith; it’s everywhere you look. You have to find today’s themes in verydifferent places. There’s lots of content. If I still had a group, I would workwith these themes. But I had a group for more than 40 years and that’senough.

(Seventh title)… and key works

JK: Classical ballet, definitely. Regardless in which form, Swan Lake, Giselleand Romeo and Juliet. And naturally Beethoven’s Ninth is part of that. Youcan’t rewrite Beethoven’s Ninth. It’s there, it should be there, and that’simportant. There are naturally influences and role models – Der Grüne Tischby Kurt Jooss. There are dancers there, like “der rote Jean Weidt” who didsolo pieces with a political content. There are many pieces from earlier youneed to keep to learn from them and see how things were then. Pieces byGerhard Bohner and Pina Bausch –we don’t always want to put on PinaBausch, as at some point it crumbles away – as well as Cranko, but the mostendangered pieces are my own because no one can recreate them. Some havetried but it doesn’t work. But classical works must definitely be preserved, as

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well as classical dance.

(Eighth title)One’s own heritage

JK: I’m not vain enough. If I’d started thinking about my past and my pastpieces then I’d have died a long time ago. I don’t have to. I can’t assess it.Important would be pieces like Kriegsanleitung für jedermann that weperformed as guests at the Deutsche Oper when the police came andoccupied the theatre as the audience was beating each other up because ofthe content. The Berlin Senate had said no war material had been built inWest Berlin, but it wasn’t true, as they had built all the electronic stuff for thecombat tanks and everything in West Berlin. Someone said they hadn’t builtany war material and I said, “Well, you’re lying.” You can make weapons ortanks using a few small parts. So those things may be a part of my heritageor Schwanensee AG, which was seen as a catastrophe by the critics, but itwasn’t true.

(Ninth title)Re­enactment of Francis Bacon (2012)

JK: I’m not very vain, but I have to say I’m the only one who has done fivepainters, who has done so many female biographies. I don’t think there isanyone in Europe who has done as many premieres as I have. FrancisBacon came about in response to the great demand to re­enact the piece withIsmael Ivo at a festival last summer. I never thought it would be sosuccessful. There were six additional performances and the festival wasextended by almost a week because of it. Then it went to Brazil and IsmaelIvo received an award from the president. Francis Bacon was a very difficultpiece for me, because when you look at Francis Bacon’s pictures, for examplethe picture of the Pope, for which Bacon spent ten years thinking about howhe could put the Pope on canvas at all, I’m there thinking, “How can I putwhat Francis Bacon has painted on the stage?” It was a very difficultprocess. I did it with Ismael Ivo, who was never trained in classical dance.He was an actor. It was easier to do the piece with him than with a highlyqualified dancer. It would have been more difficult that way. Ismael Ivo hasa particular charisma and that’s why the piece was successful. I think it willbe repeated in the Volksbühne.

(Tenth title)Deviations from the original

JK: Yes, there are different people in it, and one extra character wasinstalled, at Ismael Ivo’s request. I said, “OK, we’ll have one more.” I workedmore with the bodies, as the people who danced the premiere with Ismaelhad different bodies and I always focus on the body. When I work with asinger I always work with the physical limits of the singing or the voice. I dothe same with actors. I can’t ask a fat actor to do three pirouettes, forexample. Everybody can dance, even fat people, even people with physicaldisabilities, everyone can move. But you have to work within their physicallimits. I found a few ways to work with the dancers so that they didn’t try tocopy what they couldn’t do. I think I read some good reviews about the piecein Stuttgart ages ago. I haven’t read anything else since. It said it was like agreat echo. I don’t know. I know that all performances were sold outimmediately. Ismael had charisma written all over his face and I said tomyself, “OK, then good.”

Recorded at the Volksbühne Berlin on 24/4/2013Interview guidelines: Isabel Niederhagen, Riccarda HerreInterview and editing: Isabel NiederhagenCamera and editing: Andrea Keiz

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