From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Mon, 3 May 2004 11:05:32 +1000

Greetings All,

I'd like to make a start on the Man and his Ba if everyone is in agreementthat we translate this text. The beginning of the 12th Dynasty text ismissing, the fragmented first few lines appear to be spoken by the soul.Then follows the man's answer, and the dialogue continues between the two.

<1>........] =tn r Dd [............................]<1> ...... you(r...) in order to say [.............]

# It looks like the =tn belongs to a preceding phrase. It's probably bestnot to try to figure out the missing part here, there is too little to workwith.

<2> n nma ns=sn iw r XA[b]<2> Their tongue is not biased. (It) would be crookedness

# I think it's reasonable in this context to accept the reconstruction of XA[b]I take the 'r' as the r of futurity.

<3> dbAw n nma ns=sn<3> to offer payment. Their tongue is not biased.

# The man (and his soul) is probably addressing a group of judges or gods,so the use of the singular 'tongue' for the collective group, who speak asone.

<3> iw wp<4>.n=i r=i n bA=i wSb=i Ddt.n=f<3-4> I opened my mouth to my soul, that I might answer what he had said.

m Htp

Jenny

From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba (15-16)Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:16:39 +1000

Hi Timofey,> We can find at the beginning of text *ns=sn* - i.e. plural>*Their tongue(s)*>>iw nA wr r=i m mim

>Maybe it is: These ones (=sn) are greater then I today.

As it is most likely that the first part is spoken by the soul, and thatwhich follows (in a new 'paragraph') is what the man said, I would thinkthe 'nA' would have to refer to what is immediately before it, which is theman having to answer the soul's objections.<3-4> I opened my mouth to my soul, that I might answer what he had said.It is overwhelming for him to contemplate that his soul would desert him.

=======================

<15> =f tk(n)=f im=i hrw qsnt<15> He should be near to me on the day of pain.

The first =f belongs to column 14. Then I think tk=f should be tk(n)=f - 'tobe near'.

<16> aHa=f m pf gs mi iri nH[pw]<16> He should stand up on that side like .......... does.

nHpw - Does Hannig give a meaning for this word? It is not in Faulkner'sdictionary, Lichtheim and Faulkner do not translate it, Parkinson has'praise singer'."...like a praise singer does"nHi - has the meaning to pray for (verb), or prayer (noun).pw - is a bit suspect. My hieratic is not all that good but I can't see a'p' in that sign group. It is very similar to 'qn', as can be seen on p.198of Gosline's Hieratic Paleography (even though this is Late Egyptian).qni - brave, strong, capable, dutiful. (dutiful being the likely meaning)Which leads me to think of the groups of professional singers and mourners.So I would be inclined to write that as >mi iri nH-qn< and followParkinson's translation (for want of a better word)...

<16> aHa=f m pf gs mi iri nH-qn<16> He should stand up on that side like a praise singer does.

m HtpJenny

From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Disput between Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 11:25:19 +0400

Hi evrybody!How do you do Jenny!

>It looks like a small piece of papyrus is folded back on itself. I would>love to straighten it out, we might be able to see what the missing sign is.>And is that last sign really an 'f', it looks too vertical.

We need professional to ask it.

<9> [.......f] m X.t=i m Snw nwH nnhe is in my body as cartouche (circuit) of rope

>The V1 determinative indicates it is 'net' rather than 'cartouche'.

OK: *he is in my body as a net of rope*

Maybe it could be:[?.iw=f] m X.t=i m Snw nwH nn

>I wonder if that might be making some reference to Spell 153 of the Book of>the Dead?I dont think so.It is too far from 12 dynasty to New Kingdom (time ofappearance and using of the Book of the Dead.

Respect to ALL AELiers.Timofey==============================================================================

From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba (8-9)Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 14:42:25 +1000

Hi All,

Timofey wrote:> It is too far from 12 dynasty to New Kingdom (time ofappearance and using of the Book of the Dead.<

Oops. Yes, I forgot about the dates. But a similar spell can be found in theMiddle Kingdom Coffin Texts (Spell 473). It may go back to the PyramidTexts, but I haven't found it there yet."...you may trap those who are all over the land, but you shall not catch mein your nets in which you catch the dead..." (473)

I may be groping in the dark here but this spell came to mind so I thoughtit was worth considering. Anyone else have thoughts on the subject?

<8> ............. nn a[_m=f]<8> ............. He shall not .....

<9> [......=f] m X.t=i m Snw nwH nn<9> [his ......] from my body with a net of rope.

Perhaps something like:"He shall not extract himself from my body with a net of rope."

Looking through Faulkner's dictionary, there is 'axm - extinguish, destroy',though it has a different determinative, but perhaps not impossible.There's another possibility that it is an 'A' rather than an 'm'. Perhaps'awA - to steal', though the wA (V4) sign is dubious in hieratic. Or 'aDA -guilty', the hieratic for DA (U28) is a little more convincing. But stillnothing conclusive.

m HtpJenny

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From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Grammar Dispute between a Man and his Ba (8-9)To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>

Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 19:02:59 +0400

How do you do Jenny!Hi everybody!

><12> n=f Hr stA=i r mt n iit.(i) n=f><12> to him; dragging me toward death before I had come to it,

>n iit.(i)>Gardiner 402 - "This construction is particularly common as a virtual adverb

This translation sounds good, but...

m(w)t *death* is the feminine noun

I mean if it were 'before, I had come to IT (death)' itwould be 'r m(w).t n iit.(=i) n=*s*'

Scribal error? I don't think so, in line <19> we can see 'r mt n ii.t=*i*n=f' 'to the death, I have not come to him yet.'

Another note:

>clause with the meaning 'before he has (had)....'

Iahmose:

iw=i m Sri n ir.t=i Hm.t=iI was a lad; I had not done my wife yet. (I was not married)

If we always will translate it as 'before he has (had)....' we would get meaning of this sentence as:I was a lad before I had not done my wife.

Can anyone explain to me sense of this translation? Sense could be, if there was no *n* negation in this clause. But *n* is there.

(Look: my soul) is bringing me to death: I have not come to him yet.

Maybe it could be:n=f Hr stA=i r mt n iit.(=s) n=f(Look: my soul) is bringing me to death: It has not come to him yet.Him = my soul = I.Then:It has not come to him (to me) yet

sr=sn Da n ii.t(=f)Here again suffix *=f* is omitted!nSny n xpr.t=f

Allen, Gardiner followers can translate:'They could predict a tempest before it has come, a stormbefore it has happened.'There is another translation:'They said: tempest would not come yet, storm would not

happen yet.Here we can see future in the past.

Can anybody explain and proof me using *f* instead of *s*?

We must be objective.Respect to allTima==============================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:07:20 +0100From: fh226@cam.ac.ukTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Grammar Dispute between a Man and his Ba (8-9)

--On 12 May 2004 19:02 +0400 Timofey <shady_member@zmail.ru> wrote:

> m(w)t *death* is the feminine noun>> I mean if it were 'before, I had come to IT (death)' it> would be 'r m(w).t n iit.(=i) n=*s*'

The noun mwt "death" is in fact a rare example of a masculine noun with a ".t" ending. So no scribal error - the =f suffix does refer to death. Cf. coptic MOY which is also masculine.

Fredrik HagenChrist's CollegeUniversity of Cambridge

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Subject: Re: AEL Grammar Dispute between a Man and his Ba (11-22)To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>From: S_Comee@jpf.go.jpDate: Thu, 13 May 2004 17:14:11 +0900

I would like to thank Jenny and Timofey for their hard work (!!!) andalso try my hand at the next section.

<11> m=tn bA=i Hr th.t=i n sDm.n=i <12> n=f Look, my soul is misleading me, [but] I do not listen to him (i.e. soul); # Hr + Infinitive = present (in English, translated by a progressive) tense. # n sDm.n=i = the negative sDm=f (neg. present tense)

<12> Hr sTA=i r m(w)t n ii.t(=i) n=f (my soul) is dragging me toward death, [but] I will not go to him yet; # n ii.t(=i) = I hate to disagree with Gardiner, but couldn't this be the negative sDm.t=f (past tense) form, which takes on a future meaning in the past? This is the ancestor of the "not yet" (empatefsOtem) negative completive tense in Coptic. # Concerning this section, Erman translated it as: indem [ich] nicht zu ihm komme, which would mean something like "by [my] not coming to him," or "while [I] do not come to him"). # But I like Timofey's idea that the "correct" reading might be *n

ii.t[=s] n=f* "It (= death [f.]) has not come to him yet."

<13> Hr xAa(=i) Hr x.t r smA.t=i (my soul) is casting me upon fire in order to burn me!

<14> [....tt...mnt=f.........sA..........] # There is not enough left of this line to facilitate translation.

<15> =f tk[n]=f im=i hrw qsn It (i.e., my soul) shall be near me on the day of pain. # The *=f* must belong to end of the preceding line. Although I can only read the first word of the line as *tk*, I can find the verb *tk* nowhere. Going by Lichtheim and Parkinson's translations, I agree with Jenny that the verb must be *tk[n]*, to be near.

<16> aHa=f m pf gs mi ir nHp.w It shall stand on that side (="by my side"?), like those who [sing] praise do. # Although I like Jenny's idea concerning this line, I see no need to go that way, as I found a verb in the Beinlich list, nHp = to praise; could this be a participle used as a plural noun here--"those who praise"? I should add, however, that I am not too adept at reading Hieratic, so she might be right. # Erman wonders if the word might be related to the Coptic *ne2pe* (where 2 is the h named *hori*), which means "to wail, mourn." If he is right, could these be the professional mourners who wailed in the funeral procession? He also postulates that the final A1 glyph is not a determinative but the 1st pers. sing. pronoun, which would mean then the final w is not a plural marker. In that case, the phrase would be: "like my mourner does." This makes sense, as the *he* in the next line could then be the "mourner."

<17> pA is pw prr in=f sw r=f Such is he (= mourner?) who shall go forth, as he brings himself to him (= bA?). # Note the germination of pr(i), which indicates a Prospective (translated as future).

bA<18>=i wxA r sdH Ah Hr anx O, my Soul, foolish in order to ease the misery due to life,

ihm<19> wi r m[w]t n ii.t=i n=f snDm restrains me for death, [though] I will not go to him yet. Sweeten # As above, the second clause could be "It (= death [f.]) has not come to him yet."

<20> n=i imnt in-iw qsn pw pXr.t <21> pw anh the West for me. Is that difficult? Life <21> is a passage,

iw xt.w xr=sn xnd r=k and trees fall. Tread, then, # I am reading r=k to be an enclitic particle like r=f, and am

translating here as "then."

<22> Hr isf.t wAH mAir=i upon evil, and set aside my misery!

m Htp, StephenFrom: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba (sDmt=f)Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 14:21:02 +1000

Stephen Comee wrote:> <12> Hr sTA=i r m(w)t n ii.t(=i) n=f (my soul) is dragging me toward death, [but] I will not go to him yet; # n ii.t(=i) = I hate to disagree with Gardiner, but couldn't this be the negative sDm.t=f (past tense) form, which takes on a future meaning in the past?<

On the web is a pdf filewww.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/ l.m.j.zonhoven/titlecon.pdf>STUDIES ON THE sDm.t=f VERB FORM IN CLASSICAL EGYPTIANby L.M.J. Zonhoven 1997.

CHAPTER III. THE ACTIVE n sDm.t=f CONSTRUCTION>In the following discussion of examples of the use of n sDm.t=f in relationto the three possible reference times I shall consistently use theconjunction "before" + affirmative clause as the translation of theconstruction. This strategy only serves the purpose of establishing that nsDm.t=f in that translation can be interpreted in terms of relative futuretime reference.

>The absolute present can also function as the reference time for n sDm.t=f.Dispute of a Man with his Ba, 11-12. n sDm.n=i n=f Hr sTA=i r m(w)t niy.t=(i) /=F8(?)n=f "I do notlisten to him whilst dragging me to death, before I have come to it".

>Dispute of a Man with his Ba, 18-19. ihm wi r m(w)t n iy.t=i n=f "restrainme from dying, before I have come to it". <

And a quick note about what I wrote a couple of days ago:

>So I would be inclined to write that as >mi iri nH-qn< and followParkinson's translation (for want of a better word)...<16> aHa=f m pf gs mi iri nH-qn<16> He should stand up on that side like a praise singer does.<

Praise singer sounds a little clumsy. Perhaps eulogist would be better, (eu= good, logos = words). One who sings/speaks good words of the dead.

Or if the final A1 is the suffix pronoun, (as Erman says, thanks Steven),that would read "like my eulogist does".(or 'will'?)

Stephen:> I found a verb in the Beinlich list, nHp = to praise; could this be a participle used as a plural noun here--"those who praise"?>

Does the Beinlich give a source for 'nHp'?

m HtpJenny

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From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba (sDmt=f)Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 14:28:20 +1000

That URL I sent was just the introduction. For all pages seehttp://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/l.m.j.zonhoven/

Jenny===================================================================== From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Disput between Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 15:33:07 +0400

Hi Everybody!How do you do Jenny!

I think it is most difficult part of text for translationand understanding.

<15>=f tk[n]=f im=i hrw qsn <16> aHa=f(he) It (i.e., my soul) is near to me. (I think, full stophere). It is the day of pain that stand up

<16> m pf gs mi ir nHpwon side of that one [over there] according to how singerof prayers does.

# pf(A) FOLLOW the noun it belong to, *m* isn't noun, sopf(A) is separate noun with the meaning 'that one/thatthing'

<17> pA is pw prr ini=f sw r=fbecause this (one) [here with me] is (one) who is goingout, he bring himself against him (the day of pain ?).

Stephen wrote:

# Note the germination of pr(i), which indicates aProspective (translated as future).

Neither 'prospective' nor 'subjunctive' of 2-gem verbsshows geminating. It is could only be so-called ActiveImperfective participle.

bA <18>=i wxA(.w) r sdH Ah(w) Hr anxMy soul is one who is acting stupidly in order to ease themisery upon (in) life.

ihm <19> wi r m(w)t n ii.t=i n=f snDm <20> n=i imn.trestrains me from death - I will not come to him yet(because) the West gives to me pleasure. (or makes mehappy)

in-iw qsn pw pXr.t <21> pw anhIs life a difficult [thing]? Is life a passage (transitorystate)?

or 'Really life is a difficult thing? Really life is apassage?'

# I think that *in-iw* refer to both noun and *anx* too.Like *m=tn bA=i* refer to Hr *sTA=i* and *Hr xAa(=i)*

I think that our scribe was very lazy boy, even hardconsonant *n* in word *tkn* isn't written.

<21>iw xt.w xr=sn xnd r=kIt is trees that have been fallen. Tread, you!

# I am reading r=k to be a mark of the Imperative.xr *fall* is Imperfective sDm=fI think that construction of sentence tell us aboutemphasis of word xt.w *trees*Using of *iw* tells us about important information.

<22> Hr isf.t wAH mAir=iupon sinsRespect to allTimofeyFrom: "A.P.de Visser" <visser-25@zonnet.nl>To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Disput between Man and his BaDate: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:20:34 +0200

Here are some other suggestions :ihm<19> wi r m(w)t n ii.t=i n=f ...........restrains me fromdeath, while I had not yet come to it(or:before I had cometo it).It is a sdm.t.f-form, as far as I can see.Jenny wrote about thisform,referring to the sstudy by Zonhoven.

snDm <20> n=i imnt.Here Lichtheim translates it as an imperative:Sweeten the West for me.

in-iw qsn pw pXr.t<21>pw anhIs it difficult? Life is a passage.Comment: I dont think that the second half is meant in an iterrogative way.

with regards Bram de Visser==============================================================================

Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba (nHp)To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>

From: S_Comee@jpf.go.jpDate: Tue, 18 May 2004 17:00:54 +0900

A Note for Jenny:

Sorry to be so late in replying.I found THREE verbs in the Beinlich list spelled nhp and nHp.Here are the listings (with references to the Woerterbuch) for both ofthem:

nhp --> (Verbum, neben loben) --> Wb II S. 283 -->verb, next to praise) nhp --> trauern um --> Wb II S. 284 --> mourn around nHp --> preisen (aufgehende Sonne) --> Wb II S. 295 --> praise (rising sun)

Does that help any???

m Htp, Stephen

From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Disput between Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 17:17:46 +0400

Some supplements of my previous translation:

I wrote:><15>=f tk[n]=f im=i hrw qsn <16> aHa=f>(he) It (i.e., my soul) is near to me. (I think, full stop >here). It is>the day of pain that stand up

New thoughts:(He) It (i.e., my soul) is near (approaches) to the dayof pain in(side) of me. He stand up...

Because soul (Ba) is inside of our bodies. But I stilllike my previous translation.

Mistake because of my EnglishI wrote><21>iw xt.w xr=sn xnd r=k>It is trees that have been fallen. Tread, you!Right:It is trees that have been falling.

I wrote:> Stephen wrote:

># Note the germination of pr(i), which indicates a Prospective> (translated as future).

>Neither 'prospective' nor 'subjunctive' of 2-gem verbs shows >geminating.It is could only be so-called Active Imperfective >participle.

Oops! 2-gem verbs really shows germination in ProspectivesDm.w=f, but I still prefer Active Imperfectiveparticiple.

Fredrik Hagen wrote:

>The noun mwt "death" is in fact a rare example of a masculine>noun with a ".t" ending. So no scribal error - the =f suffix>does refer to death. Cf. coptic MOY which is also masculine.

I must agree with Jenny Carrington translation of *r m(w)tn ii.t=i n=f* 'I will not come to death yet'

Respect to all AELiersTimofey.

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From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba (15-22)Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 22:29:06 +1000

><15> =f tk(n)=f im=i hrw qsnt><15> He should be near to me on the day of pain.

A slightly different translation which better takes im=i into account, andfor which there is no need to add "on" (the day of pain):

<15> He should approach the day of pain with me.

Rather than just being near him, the soul should be united with him.

===========================Timofey :><16> m pf gs mi ir nHpw>on side of that one [over there] according to how singer of prayers does.

># pf(A) FOLLOW the noun it belong to, *m* isn't noun, so pf(A) is separate noun with >the meaning 'that one/that thing'

Quoting Gardiner.111, re. demonstratives: "Exceptionally, pf, tf, pfA, tfAmay precede their noun, as in pf gs 'that side', tfA pXrt 'that remedy'."

=========================Thanks Stephen:>I found THREE verbs in the Beinlich list spelled nhp and nHp.>Here are the listings (with references to the Woerterbuch) for both ofthem:>> nhp --> (Verbum, neben loben) --> Wb II S. 283 -->verb, next to praise)> nhp --> trauern um --> Wb II S. 284 --> mourn around> nHp --> preisen (aufgehende Sonne) --> Wb II S. 295 --> praise (risingsun)

I was wondering about the original source of the word. In what other texts,if any, does it appear? If it is only attested in this text, can we be sureof it.

The spelling in the Man and his Ba uses G21 V28 Q3 G43though as I mentioned before, I am uncertain about reading the signs as pand w. (On taking another look it does look like a 'w' but I still can't seethe 'p'.)

Faulkner lists several meanings for nhp which all use N35:O4*Q3 withdiffering determinatives:pulsatecopulaterise early in the morningmourncare (for)*nhpw - early morning

nHp (using the G21 bird as in the Man and his Ba) - potter's wheel

Not very helpful, except for "mourn". So that's a possibility.

I tend to think the final A1 glyph is still a determinative.If it IS a 'w', then both these signs would indicate that the word is a nounderived from a verb. Or a participle which has the w ending when used as anoun.

Is there some general rule about nouns derived from verbs?

=====================================<17> pA is pw prr inn=f sw r=f bA<17> It is this one who goes forth, he brings it about for himself.

pA is pw - it seems to me this is an 'A pw' nominal sentence, see Allen 7.9, with an enclitic particle ('is') after the first word, marking asubordinate clause. But it doesn't seem to be subordinate to the precedingsentence. Perhaps to the following??prr - Imperfective active participle - 'who goes forth'inn=f - Imperfective: circumstantial sDm=f - 'he brings' (or Imperfectiveactive participle 'who brings', or perhaps even the Perfect, in.n=f, 'he hasbrought'.)

sw - Dependant Pronoun - singular, third person, masculine.

r=f - preposition and suffix pronoun. concerning him(self).ORrf - an enclitic particle giving emphasis to the soul's complaints. ?Gardiner says the interrogative meaning may be reinforced by the encliticparticles rf, irf, and tr, but I think that would come before the dependantpronoun. Would it not?? So I'll go with preposition and suffix pronoun.

The man says it is the soul who is causing the dispute, and is threateningto desert him. As long as the soul supports the man, all will be well.

=============================<18> =i wxA r sdH Ah Hr anx ihm(=f)<18> My soul is too ignorant to ease the pain of life. He restrainsor:My soul, acting foolishly to ease the sorrow of life, restrains

<19> wi r mt n iit=i n=f<19> me from death before I have come to it.

Interesting that earlier he 'leads him towards death' and now he 'restrainshim from death'. (Lichtheim comments, however, that she takes the meaning of'ihm' to be 'lead toward' rather than 'hold back'.) There appears to be asubtle difference between the two sentences. Firstly, if the man is

considering suicide to ease his sorrow, the fact that the Ba opposes him,and threatens to desert him, would give him more reason to worry, and sobring him closer to death. Then, the Ba, in opposing him, holds him backfrom death by trying to convince him of the good things in life.

snDm <20> n=i imn.t in iw qsnt pwSweeten <20> the west for me. Is it difficult?

in iw qsnt pw - a sentence beginning with 'in iw' usually indicates thePerfect verb in a predicate question. see Allen 18.18Gardiner 492.4 'in iw' - "In sentences containing pw with a nominalpredicate."

pxrt <21> pw anx iw xwt xr=sn<21> Life is a transition, trees (they) fall.

pXrt pw anx:'A pw B' nominal sentence. Both A and B are nouns.Allen 7.10 gives the example - pXrt pw anx - Life is a cycle.

xnd rk <22> Hr isft wAH mAr=iTread <22> upon evil, discard my misery.

m HtpJenny

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From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Disput between Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 14:05:01 +0400

Hi Everybody!

How do you do Jenny!

<21> xnd r=kTread, you!

<22> Hr isf.t wAH(.w) mAir=iupon sins, ignorant of my misery!

<23> wDa wi DHwty May Thoth judge me.

<23> Htp <24> nTr.w xsf xnsw Hr=iMay Khonsu defend me while (other) gods go to rest

<25> zXA=i m mAat sDm ra mdw<26>=iI truly write that Ra listen to my speech.

<26> sg(.w) wiA xsf <27> is ds Hr=i (Ra is the) one who commands sacred barque while jar-god defend me.# 'jar-god' maybe it is Khnum.

<27> m a.t Dsr.tin the Holy chamber

<28> Hr ntt sAr=i wdn mbecause of my need *wdn m*

#What is 'wdn' here? Is it 'weigh (on someone, of affairs)' or 'offer (to)'?

<29> fAj.n=f n=i nDm xsf <30> nTr.w StA.w X.t=iHe has presented pleasure to me while (other) gods oppose to secret of my body.

<30> Dd.t.n n=i <31> bA=i n ntk is s.i iw=k trjHas been said by my soul to me: You are indeed not a man! You are really...

Respect to all AELiersTimofey==============================================================================

From: "A.P.de Visser" <visser-25@zonnet.nl>To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Disput between Man and his BaDate: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:06:07 +0200

Hallo Timofey and other members

This is a very difficult part of the text..May I suggest some other translations:

<23> wDa wi DHwtyMay Thoth judge me

<23> Htp <24> nTr.w xsf xnsw Hr=iwho appeases the gods; may Chonsu defend me

<25> sS=i ( why < zXA=i >?) m mAat sDm ra mdw<26>=i

who is a scribe in truth; may Ra listen to my speech

<26>sg(.w) wiA xsf <27> isdes Hr=i

who calms the sacred barque,while Isdes defends meN.B. I could not find much abou t this god, only that he belongs to the lessimportant deities.

<28> I could not find a reasonable solution for this sentence.

< 29> fa.n=f n=i nDm xsf<30> nTr.w StA.w X.t=i

he bore for me ( refers probably to <28>).It is pleasant when the gods driveout the secrets of my body.

Please give comments on this!

Kind regards Bram de Visser==============================================================================

From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba (nHpw)Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:39:17 +1000

Returning to nHpw in column 16, a few comments on the hieratic by Jon Hirst:

>The mysterious glyph could of course be a badly created "t", unusual for this papyrus.>This would give nHtw - also giving "praisers or prayers" (female)>- loosely mourners, although not usually written this way.>The only translation I can find for nHpw is "potter's wheel" which is certainly wrong.>(The last consonant is) definitely "w" (G43)>The mysterious glyph is not "p", which is written as a short horizontal with 3>(occasionally 2) vertical strokes on top of it, throughout the papyrus.

Whatever it is, it appears to mean 'mourners' or 'those who praise', whichfits the context well.

Jenny==============================================================================

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 10:06:10 +0300From: Elena Moltchanova <elena.moltchanova@ktl.fi>Subject: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>

Greetings AEL:ers,

I've been lurking for a while and I am really enjoying the current discussion of the text. You are doing a great work and I promise to join quiet soon with a regular translation. For now, however, I would just like to share a few thoughts..1. In line <6> "iw grt wr r aba" have been translated by many as "It is more than boasting" or "It is worse than boasting". I admit I cannot make sense of this translation. Does the man mean that he is not exaggerating and his soul really is ignoring him. Or what other meaning of "boasting" might he have in mind?

2.I have translated the following:

<15> tk(n)=f im=i hrw qsnt<16> aHa=f m pf gs mi iri nHpw

as

May he be near me in the day of troubleMay he stand by this side like a singer does.

Can the word "mi" here have the meaning "in the capacity of"? The verb isin subjunctive and may thus express a wish. Does the day of trouble actuallymean the day of death? So the man is exhorting his soul to remain by his sideand not leave him. In which case maybe "a mourner" suggested by Stephen is agood option. Or can it be that the man asks his soul = his courage not toleave him in the day of trouble, in which case "a singer" (uplifting his

spirit) is a better choice?

3.snDm <20> n=i imnt

I can see the logic behind the translation in the imperative but can this alsobe a case of VdS construction? In this case the translation could be eitherstative: "The West is pleasing to me" or subjunctive: "May the West be (made)pleasing to me". The second probably makes more sense: the speaker wants tosee death as an acceptable "pleasant" state.

Awaiting your comments,Elena Moltchanova==============================================================================

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:41:29 +0300From: Elena Moltchanova <elena.moltchanova@ktl.fi>Subject: AEL Dispute between Man and his Ba (20-28)To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>

Hello AEL:ers,Here are my two eurocents. :-)

snDm [20] n=i imnt. in iw qsnt. pw pXrt

May the West be (made) pleasing to me. Is it troublesome?

* in the first sentence VdS word order. The verb snDm is probably in subjunctive.

[21] anx iw xt xr=sn. xntD r=kLife is a transition. The trees - they fall. (As for you -)

[22] Hr isft. wAH mAir=iTread upon falsehood. Set aside my miseries.

* The sentence "xntD r=k Hr isft" is similar to the one in Allen p. 192: "sDm r=k n=i" literally translated as "listen, with respect to yourself, to me." r=k comes after the imperative verb and doesn't actually need to be translated.

[23] wda wi dHwti. HtpMay the Thoth judge me

* the word wda also has a meaning 'to discern'

[24] nTr(w). xzf xnsw Hr=iMay the gods be pleased. May Khonsu protect me from myself

* I am not sure if this is a right translation. Wilkinson's "The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancienc Egypt" mentions several different aspects of Khonsu. One of them is "decider of the life span". Maybe this is the aspect which the speaker has in mind here.

[25]zhA=i mAat. sDm ra mDw=iMay I write the truth. May Ra hear my words.

* The first sentence may also be transcribed as "zhAw mAat", but then

it's difficult to translate. Judging from the sentences before and after it is reasonable to expect a subjunctive VsoSO construction. Therefore zhA=i mAat seems a logical possibility.

[26] zg(=i) wiA. xzf [27] isdz Hr=i m at - DSrtMay the sacred bark carry me (?) May (god?) protect me from myselfin the Holy Chamber.

Faulkner gives the meaning of 'zg' as 'to command (the bark)' with this text as the only source. Does anybody know of any other sources or meanings for this word. In any case since (=i) is missing I am not sure that this is the right translation. Assuming the scribe has made no errors, the sacred bark "wiA" is the subject of the sentence, in which case zg cannot be translated 'to command (the bark)'. (because then the subject would come before the verb, i believe). Budge mentions word "zgat" = "to carry round" (Canopus Decree).I am not sure which god's/goddess' name is spelt this way. The closest I found is in Budge, where he says that 'istnnw' is a form of Thoth. (in the Festival song of Isis and Nephtys). BTW if anybody could point me to a good resource on the hierogliphic spelling of various god's names I would be very grateful.

cheers,Elena MoltchanovaFrom: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Tue, 25 May 2004 21:48:39 +1000

Hi Elena,

>1. In line <6> "iw grt wr r aba" have been translated by many as "It ismore than boasting" or "It is worse than boasting". I admit I cannotmake sense of this translation. Does the man mean that he is notexaggerating and his soul really is ignoring him. Or what other meaningof "boasting" might he have in mind? <

# The way I see it, the man feels that being ignored is worse than theopposite, which would be exaggerating or boasting about his achievements.

2.>May he be near me in the day of trouble>May he stand by this side like a singer does.>Can the word "mi" here have the meaning "in the capacity of"? The verb isin subjunctive and may thus express a wish. Does the day of trouble actuallymean the day of death? So the man is exhorting his soul to remain by hisside and not leave him. In which case maybe "a mourner" suggested by Stephenis a good option. Or can it be that the man asks his soul = his courage notto leave him in the day of trouble, in which case "a singer" (uplifting hisspirit) is a better choice?<

# I think he is asking that the soul be like one who would sing his praises.This is more positive than simply mourning his death. To be happy that he isgoing to the west where all his troubles will disappear.Day of trouble, day of pain, day of misfortune, or perhaps simply 'thedifficult day.' This would be the day of judgment before the 42 gods in theHall of Maet. Is the day of judgment the same day as his day of death, or isit his day of burial? I think probably burial, when the spells inscribed onthe coffin come into effect as he passes through the underworld on his wayto the Field of Reeds.

3.>snDm <20> n=i imntI can see the logic behind the translation in the imperative but can thisalso be a case of VdS construction? In this case the translation could beeither stative: "The West is pleasing to me" or subjunctive: "May the Westbe (made) pleasing to me". The second probably makes more sense: the speakerwants to see death as an acceptable "pleasant" state.<

# snDm is a causative verb with the initial radical 's' added to the rootverb nDm. So has the meaning 'cause to be sweet', 'sweeten', or 'makepleasant' .He is asking the soul 'to make it more pleasant by being united with him, isthat such a difficult thing to do?'

Jenny==============================================================================

From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Tue, 25 May 2004 21:43:24 +1000

<23> wDa wi Dhwty Htp <24> nTrw<23> May Thoth, who pacifies the gods, judge me.

<24> xsf xnsw Hr=i <25> sS mAat<24> May Khonsu, scribe of truth, defend me.

<25> sDm ra mdw <26>=i sg wiA<25> May Ra, who commands the sunboat, hear my words.

xsf <27>isds Hr=i m at Dsrt<27> May Isdes defend me in the holy chamber,

# I found a few references to Isdes :Spell 155 of the Coffin texts says "I know the souls of the New Moon: theyare Osiris, Anubis, and Isdes(10)." (note 10, ie. Thoth.) - Faulkner.Spell 27 Coffin texts: "O Isdes, give speech to N."Budge's dictionary = "one of the company of Thoth."

<28> Hr-ntt sAr wdn m [Atpw]<28> because the needy one was weighed down with [a load]

<29> fAi.n=f n=i nDm xsf <30> nTrw<29> which he has lifted for me. It is joyful that the gods redress

<30> StAw Xt=i Ddt.n n=i <31> bA=i the secrets of my body. What my soul said to me:

#I found this rather difficult too. My tentative solution more or lessfollows Faulkner's.sAr - taking the A1 man as a determinative rather than as a pronoun.

Some published translations of 28-30.

(Parkinson- "The Tale of Sinuhe and other Ancient Egyptian Tales."):"For my need is pressing, a [weight] he has placed on me. It would be asweet relief, if the gods drove off the heaviness of my body!"

(Faulkner - "The Literature of Ancient Egypt" edited by William Kelly

Simpson."because the needy one is weighed down with [the burden] which he has liftedup from me; it is pleasant that the gods should ward off the secret(thoughts) of my body."

(Lichtheim - "Ancient Egyptian Literature, vol 1")"For my suffering is too heavy a burden to be borne by me. May it pleasethat the gods repel my body's secrets."

(John A.Wilson - "Egyptian Didactic Tales : A dispute over Suicide" inA.N.E.T. pp.405-7)"My wretchedness is heavy..... Pleasant would be the defense of a god forthe secrets of my body."

Jenny==============================================================================

From: "A.P.de Visser" <visser-25@zonnet.nl>To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between Man and his Ba (20-28)Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 11:56:36 +0200

As to Elena,s question about <26> zg (I think it has to be sg ) Hannig givesthe translation < stoppen> or <anhalten>,so <to stop> in English.Hannig uses the same determinative, namely A26.

Kind regards Bram de VisserFrom: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between Man and his Ba To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 19:45:50 +0400

How do you do Jenny!How do you do mr. Bram de Visser!Hi Lena, I am glad you join us.

Dear mr. Bram de Visser, I really like you translation.I don't notice this clause-play.May I do some supplements:

<21> xnd r=k <22> Hr isf.t wAH(.w) mAir=iTread, you! upon sins who ignores (=ignorant of) mymisery!

<23> wDa wi DHwty Htp(.w) <24> nTr.wMay Thoth judge me who appeases the gods.

<23> xsf xnsw Hr=i sS m mAatMay Khonsu defend me who is the scribe in truth

# Question: Khonsu is the moon-god; I don't see connectionwith a scribe, you should agree with me that it would makemore sense if it were:'May Thoth judge me who is a scribe in truth'

<25> sDm ra mdw<26>=i sg(.w) wiAMay Ra listen to my speech who commands the sacred barque

<26> xsf <27> is-ds Hr=i (i)m(.y) a.t Dsr.tMay Jar-god (Isdes) defend me who is the dweller of holy

chamber.

# Maybe is-ds translates something like 'Like Jar', Ithink this god has connection with Khnum who is 'Potter 'god?

<28> Hr ntt sAr=i wdn [m...] <29> fAj.n=f n=i nDmbecause of my heavy need He has presented pleasure to me

<29> xsf <30> nTr.w StA.w X.t=iMay (other) gods oppose to secret of my body.May (other) gods oppose to my soul.

'Secret of my body' = 'What my body hides' = 'my soul'

Do you fill that our guy brings his soul to TRIAL!!!

Thoth is a judge.Khonsu with Jar-god are layers.Ra is the listener.Other Gods are prosecutors.

<30> Dd.t.n n=i <31> bA=i n ntk is s.i iw=k trjHas been said by my soul to me: You are indeed not a man!You are really...

Respect to all AELiersTimofey

Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>From: S_Comee@jpf.go.jpDate: Fri, 28 May 2004 16:51:32 +0900

Well, I have been away for a while, and it's about time I try to catchup with Jenny and Timofey and Bram and the others, so I'll start whereI left off. I think that I basically agree with what the others havedone so far, although I may have phrased it differently.

<23> wDa wi DHwty Htp(.w) <24> nTr.w 'May Thoth judge me [as] one who appeases the gods. # At first, I saw these first two sentences as prayers that the gods may serve as witness for what a good man he is, so he is calling upon the gods to judge or defend him *as* one who does what is right, etc. I have added the *as* in brackets, since it does not translate a word in the original Egyptian. But now I am not sure. Does this sentence want to be as I have it, or do you think it should be: 'May Thoth, who appeases the gods, judge me.'???

<23> xsf xnsw Hr=i sS m mAat May Khonsu defend me [as] one who is a scribe in truth. # Note: the son of Amun and Mut of Thebes, Khonsu was regarded not only as a moon god, but also as a god of time and a god of knowledge. It is presumably as a god of knowledge that he is being mentioned in proximity to Thoth and in relation to a scribe. Also, I wonder if *mAat* here might be more than just truth, more like the sense of divine order and harmony, for which reason I have translated it as harmony. And should this sentence be: 'May Khonsu,

who is a scribe of Truth, defend me'??? Such a structure would certainly match that of the two following sentences. . . .

<25> sDm ra mdw<26>=i sg(.w) wiA May Ra, who commands the sacred barque, hear my words.

<26> xsf <27> is-ds Hr=i (i)m(.y) a.t Dsr.t May Isdes, who is the dweller of holy chamber, defend me. # Isdes is the 'lord of the west'. Not only is he is one of the judges of the dead; according to Wb V S. 616, *Dsr.t* is part of the Theban Necropolis.

<28> Hr ntt sAr=i wdn [m...] <29> fAi.n=f n=i Because my need weighs heavy [in ???], he carried sweetness to me. # I do not understand what to do with the *m* after *wdn*, or how it relates either to this clause or the next. The next clause seems to be a *sDm.n=f* form with the verb*fAi*, but just WHO is the HE signified by the *=f*? Is the man still talking about Isdes? Does anyone know what this part is talking about???

<29> xsf <30> nTr.w StA.w X.t=i May the gods defend the secrets of my body.' # Wb III S. 335 gives *defend* as one meaning of *xsf.* (This is, of course, the same verb as in line 26 above.)

<30> Dd.t.n n=i <31> bA=i n ntk is s iw=k tr <31> anx What my soul said to me: 'Are you not a man? Are you truly alive? # I prefer to translate the relative form *Dd.t* AS a relative form.

<31> tp-tr xm=k mHy=k Hr anx <32> mi nb aHa mr.w=i How will you profit by caring about life like a lord who erects my pyramids?' # This part is most perplexing. Faulk (615) give profit as a meaning a *km* as a noun, so I have extrapolated a verbal form, and (243) be concerned (for), take thought (for), ponder (on), care (for) for *mHi* and guardian (god) for *mHy* ---which is how I arrived at my version. What do others think about this line??? Is the part about a 'lord who erects my pyramids' correct?? Might the man be asking the BA how the BA will profit by protecting the man's life???

m Htp, Stephen==============================================================================

From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba (line 28)Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 10:19:06 +1000

Stephen:> <28> Hr ntt sAr=i wdn [m...] <29> fAi.n=f n=i> Because my need weighs heavy [in ???], he carried sweetness to me.> # I do not understand what to do with the *m* after *wdn*, or> how it relates either to this clause or the next. The next clause> seems to be a *sDm.n=f* form with the verb*fAi*, but just WHO is the> HE signified by the *=f*? Is the man still talking about Isdes?> Does anyone know what this part is talking about???

I would say yes, he is talking about Isdes. Firstly because this line beginswith 'because' so it must logically follow on from the previous line, "MayIsdes...(etc)"And secondly because I think the holy chamber refers to the Judgement Hallwhere the man's heart is weighed in the balance against the feather of Maat.

I have a book called "Rebel in the Soul - a sacred text of ancient Egypt"with translation and text by Bika Reed. (Inner Traditions, NY, 1978). (It isof course the Dispute between a Man and his Ba.)She writes: "Isdes, the spiritualised intellect symbolized by a baboon, sitsatop the scales of judgment. ......Isdes, the intelligence of the heart, isthe baboon sacred to Toth. The man calls upon this baboon to lift the weightfrom his heart and thus redress the balance in his favour."

I wonder if Hr=i might mean 'prepare me'. Faulkner has this meaning on p.176of his dictionary. The two determinatives he includes having been omitted inour text. That starts to make more sense.

<27> May Isdes prepare me for the holy chamber, [...by lifting the weightfrom my heart.]

m HtpJennyFrom: "A.P.de Visser" <visser-25@zonnet.nl>To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between Man and his BaDate: Sun, 30 May 2004 11:37:57 +0200

Some remarks about Stephens translation of <31> and <32>:ptr (not <tp-tr>) km=k mHy=k Hr anx mi nbaHa=wFaulkner gives for <aHa> in the plural form ( the pyramid-sign included)<riches, wealth>.So here is my attempt:< What do you win when you care for life like a wealthy man? >=Is <mHy=k> a future tense or is it an active participle(but with a suffix=kthis is not usual?)

kind regards Bram==============================================================================

From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Sun, 30 May 2004 22:48:24 +1000

Still thinking about the passage where he appeals to the gods.

Why the different constructions?"May Thoth..." uses the dependant pronoun for the Object.Khonsu and Isdes... use preposition and suffix pronoun. Is this a case ofhonourific transposition, placing the god's names before the pronominalobject?Ra... the basic VSO

I wrote:

>I wonder if Hr=i might mean 'prepare me'. Faulkner has this meaning onp.176 of his >dictionary. The two determinatives he includes having beenomitted in our text.

oops! I forgot for a moment about the 'xsf' on the previous line, so I guessI can rule that idea out.

Continuing...<31> n ntk is s iw=k tr<31>Are you not a man? Are you really

Negation of nominal sentence. According to Allen: nj A is B. Where nj and isstand either side of the first noun (A) or in this case the independentpronoun. "You are not a man."Gardiner says 'is' sometimes marks an interrogative tone. "Are you not aman?"In the light of the rest of this retort by the Ba, I think it should betranslated as a question.

tr - interrogative enclitic particle used only in questions, inside thesentence, after the first word. 'tr' is not translated though can meanactually, or really.

<32> anx(t) ptr km=k mHy=k Hr anx<32> alive? What do you profit if you are concerned (anxious) about life# mHy - Why the 'y' ending? ---subjunctive?

<33> mi nb aHaw Dd=i n Sm=i<33> like a lord of riches? I said: I cannot go#That pyramid sign (O24) could be M35 instead.. which gives aHaw = heaps,wealth, riches. (It makes more sense than "like a lord attending my tomb".)# n Sm=i - negation of the Perfect (?)

<34> iw nfA r tA nHmn tw Hr tfyt nnThose are to the earth.(?) Surely you are running away.

<35> nwt=k xnri nb Hr DdYou will not be cared for. Every criminal says:.......

m HtpJenny

==============================================================================

From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 19:30:20 +0400

Hi Evrybody

Stephen wrote># I prefer to translate the relative form *Dd.t* AS a >relative form.

You are absolutely right.

<30> Dd.t.n n=i <31> bA=i n ntk is s.iWhat has been said by my soul to me: You indeed not a man

<30> iw=k trj <31> anx.t(j) ptr km=k mh.y=k Hr anx<33> mi nb aHa.w=i

You are really alive (lit. You are really in state oflife), look: your profit is what you will care about inlife like lord of my wealth.

# iw=k trj <31> anx.t(j) Subject-stative constructionkm=k is a noun with suffix-pronoun.mh.y=k is Prospective sDm.w=f

<33> Dd=i n Sm=i <34> iw nfA r tA nHm.n=tw Hr tfy.tI say: I will not go. It is that one who is leaping towardthe land.(lit. that one toward the land,(is) one (who) is leaping)

# Sm=i again prospective.

<33> nn <35> nw.t di=k xnr.j nb Hr Dd <36> iw=i r iTj.t=kiw gr.t=k m(w).t rn=k <36> anx

There is no net that you might place every criminal (init), saying: 'I will seize you. You are dead man now,(but) your name will live,

<36> s.t nfA n.t xn.t afd <37> (s.t nfA) n.t ibit (= the net) is attractive place of resting, (it isplace) of heart.?

#'nfA' is written instead of 'pw'

<38> dmi pw imn.t Xn.t qs [......] Hr [ir sDm] n.i bA=i n[...] <40>=i

The West is a town, rowing [....] .If my soul will listento me I will not [...].

btA t(w)t ib=f Hna=i iw=f <41> r mar rdj=i pH=f imn.t mi<42> ntj m mr=fImage of his heart makes crime together with me. He willbecome happy: I will let him to reach the West like (itdid) who is in his piramid.

# rdj=I is a prospective sDm.w=f

Respect to all AELiersTimofey.==============================================================================

From: "Suzette Hartwell" <suzettehartwell@hotmail.com>To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.ukSubject: AEL The Dispute between a Man and his Ba-line 37 and 38Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 19:31:53 +1000

Greetings to all,This is my first attempt at translating this fascinating story. Any corrections or comments are most appreciated.

(37) anx st n=f A nt Xnt pA a=f d

This is the place that leads to rest, (or) This is it, the place that leads to rest.

(38) nt ib d mi tA pw imnt Hnt qs

This is the land the heart likes (or) This land the heart likes. The West is an excursion.

Kind regards,Suzette==============================================================================

Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>From: S_Comee@jpf.go.jpDate: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 16:51:29 +0900

Hi, everyone.

Concerning line 33, Bram transliterates it <mi nb aHa=w> writes:Faulkner gives <aHa> in the plural form ( the pyramid-sign included)<riches, wealth>.

But the text we have here is this:

mi + i (phon. comp.) // nb + A1 man determ. // aHa + arm determ. +pyramid determ. + papyrus scroll determ. + 3 pl. marks + A1 mandeterm.

I find it very strange that a word is made up of one glyph followed by4 determinatives plus a plural marker, but all the experts seem toignore the A1 and the end of aHa or aHa.w. My question is: WHY??? IsErman reading it right, and is he right that nb-aHa is a compoundword? Perhaps aHa is a false plural, a collective noun written like aplural but translated in the singular??? Even so, since there is anA1 determinative after nb, WHY is there another one needed afteraHa(w) and why does everyone, including all the old experts, ingnoreit???

For reference, in Gespraech eines Lebensmueden mit seiner Seele, Ermanreads this as *mi nb-aHa* and translates as <wie einer, der Schaetzehat>, or <like one who has wealth>.

Also, Faulkner (in The Man Who Was Tired of Life, JEA 42, 1956, p. 27)trnaslates it as <like a man of wealth> (his reading is not noted, butthe glyphs he gives in the article are the ones we are using, so theyare of course the same).

Can anyone shed any light on this usage of the A1 deteminative at theend of a word like <wealth>???

Thanks, and m Htp,Stephen==============================================================================

From: "A.P.de Visser" <visser-25@zonnet.nl>To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between Man and his BaDate: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 15:01:14 +0200

Also concerning line 33, I agree with Stephen that the A1-sign is strange,though maybe only a bit superfluous.But I dont understand why he calls the last arm-sign in <aHaw> adeterminative.Isn,t it the common phonetic sign for <a>?Anyhow I do appreciate this kind of critical notes, for they stimulate tolook more keenly to the text.

==============================================================================

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 09:58:39 +0300From: Elena Moltchanova <elena.moltchanova@ktl.fi>Subject: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba (lines 28-30)To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>

Hello AEL:ers,Sorry for lagging a bit behind. Seems to be more questions than answers here, but with perseverance...I have an alternative version to [28-32]. I would welcome your comments

[28] Hr-ntt sAr=i wdn=(w) m fA[28] because my need has weighed down with a load

Here I agree with Timofey in transliteration of sAr=i. I don't thing A1 is a proper determinative for need - it's just a posessive pronoun. Faulkner translates wdn m as 'weight down with...'. Now the lacuna left after 'm' does not seem to be large enough to cover a word. Therefore may be fA, which can be translated as a 'weight' or 'burden' may be the object of this sentence? It sounds a bit tautological though. Then the hand-sign coming after may be transliterated as 'di'= 'to give':

[29] di.n=f n=i nDm xsf nTrw [30] StAw Xt=i[29] He who has defended the secrets of my body from the gods has brought joy to me

[30]Ddt.n n=i bA=i [30] This is what my soul has said to me:

Have a nice weekend and keep up the good work,Elena Moltchanova

From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 10:44:34 +1000

A few thoughts:

line 32 - mHy=kI believe this is a Subjunctive form (which marks a statement as contingent,possible or desirable). Allen has this to say on p.246:"Coptic shows that the 3ae-inf base stem had a final 'i' in the subjunctiveie. *misias. This vowel is occasionally reflected in hieroglyphs by a finaldouble reed-leef, probably because it was heard as a consonant(ie.,*misyas)."

line 33 - aHawYes, the arm sign is part of the regular spelling of aHa. So that leaves thepyramid sign, and the papyrus roll as determinatives and then the pluralstrokes. So far, so good. It's not unusual to have two determinatives. Iguess if the A1 man was a determinative it would go before the pluralstrokes, not after, so perhaps it is a suffix pronoun after all.

If we look at this internal dialogue in a more philosophical light, weshould consider something that Plato says in the Gorgias (493) andelsewhere, that the body (soma) is the tomb (sema) of the soul. When thegods die they are born as man, when man dies the soul is free and becomes agod once again. So it is possible that in line 33 the Ba is referring to thebody and the use of the pyramid sign does indeed signify tomb. (Then thepapyrus roll, which signifies abstract concepts, means to read 'tomb' in amore philosophical way.)

Other possibilities:aHa ( to attend) mr (O24 an ideogram for tomb)."...like a lord attending my tomb". But that doesn't take into account theplural marker, unless he has more than one tomb, (the constructed tomb andthe body).ormaHat (tomb) can be written without the initial m, "like a lord (an owner)of my tomb", but then there's the additional 't' and the house determinativerather than the pyramid.

If 'riches' or 'wealth' is the correct word, (considering the plural sign)and the A1 man is the suffix pronoun, it would read something like this"What do you profit if you should be concerned about life like the owner ofmy wealth."Or 'tomb..."What do you profit if you should be concerned about life like the owner ofmy tomb(s)."(As if the man thought he actually owned his body.)

Perhaps the scribe meant this to be ambiguous.

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line 35 - Timothy, where you wrote <35> nw.t di=k, I think you'll find thearm is a determinative, not 'di'. In hieratic the D40 arm is usually writtenas D36.

[nn nw.t(w)=kYou will not be cared for. (passive)]

=====================================

Welcome Suzette, it's good to have you join in the discussion.

>(37) anx st n=f A nt Xnt pA a=f d

>>This is the place that leads to rest, (or)>This is it, the place that leads to rest.>>(38) nt ib d mi tA pw imnt Hnt qs>>This is the land the heart likes (or) This land the heart likes.>The West is an excursion.

A few corrections to the transliteration:<37> anx st nfA nt xnt afdlives. That place of resting is attractive

nfA - demonstrative pronoun, (Allen 5.8)xnt - infinitive. The bird G41 is a determinative rather than pA.afd - attractive (according to Faulkner, with a question mark)

<38> nt ib dmi pw imnt Xnt qsto the heart. The West is an abode.A difficult journey...(?)

dmi - town, abode. N23 is determinative, not tA.

m HtpJenny

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Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 10:18:21 +0200To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaFrom: rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr

Jenny Carrington writes: > line 33 - aHaw > Yes, the arm sign is part of the regular spelling of aHa. So that leaves the > pyramid sign, and the papyrus roll as determinatives and then the plural > strokes. So far, so good. It's not unusual to have two determinatives. I > guess if the A1 man was a determinative it would go before the plural > strokes, not after, so perhaps it is a suffix pronoun after all. >=20

For this "A1" determinative, see Gardiner Egyptian Grammar, =A7 61 :when an expression is felt as a compound word, especially for termsdesignating persons, it can take a determinative for the whole group. E.G. :r:x:Y1-x:t-Y1:Z2-A1 : rx-xt, "wise man".

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From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 22:44:38 +1000

Greetings All,A few more lines:

<39> [..]Hr [ir sDm] n=i bA=i [iwty][......(?)] If my soul, [who has nothing,] listens to me,

<40> [b]tA twt ib=f Hna=i iw=fhis heart in accord with me, he

This lacuna at the end of line 39 could be1) iwty - negative relative adjective, which marks a relative clause.I found examples with -n=f, -sw, each followed by A1 as a determinative,(Allen, 12.9, Gardiner 203). "who not to him" or "who has nothing"This seems more likely than:2) n is - but not,3) nn - without4) n sDm=f - negation of sDm.n=f

<41> r mar rdi=i pH=f imnt miwill be successful (fortunate). I will let him reach the west like

<42> nty mr=f aHa.n Hry-tA Hrone who is in his tomb, a survivor having attended to

<43> qrs=f .....his burial. .....

m HtpJenny

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From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 08:57:32 +1000

line 33Thanks Serge, so that brings it back to "lord (owner) of wealth".

Jenny

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From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:32:55 +1000

<43> qrs=f iw=i r irt n iAi [Hr]<43> his burial. I will make a shelter over

# r irt - r+infinitive (has future meaning) is preceded by the subject(iw=i) in the pseudo-verbal construction.

However I am wondering about the 'n'. Should there be '=k' after it?...n(=k)"I will be making for (you) a shelter..."

'iAi' - the sunshade determinative and the context seem to suggest 'shelter'or the like. But it also means 'praise, adore'. "I will make praises overyour corpse" is also a possibility.

<44> XAt=k sDdm=k ky bA<44> your corpse. You will make envious another soul

<45> m nnw iw=i r irt n iAi ix<45> in weariness (ie. another soul of one who is dead). I will make ashelter so that

<46> tm=(f) Hsw sDdm=k ky bA<46> (you) will not be cold. You will make envious another soul

# tm=(f) most likely should be tm=k

<47> nt tAw swri=i mw Hr<47> which is hot. I will drink water at

<48> bAbAt Tsy=i Syt<48> the eddy. I will set up a sunshade.

# bAbAt - not entirely satisfied with eddy. Resorting to Budge's dictionaryI find "source". This makes sense, as water will be more pure at itssource. A good place to drink.

"I will drink water at the source where I will set up a sunshade."

<49> sDdm=k ky bA nty Hqr ir Him<49> You will make envious another soul who is hungry. But if you restrain

<50> =k wi r mt m pAqi nn<50> me from death in this fashion,

# Or is that 'lead me to death'. This is how Lichtheim prefers to read it.

<51> gm=k xnt=k Hr=s m imnt wAH<51> you will not find your rest under it (ie. the sunshade) in the west.

<52> ib=k bA=i sn=i r xprt iwaw=i<52> Be patient, my soul, my brother will become my heir

<53> drpty=fy aHat(y)=fy Hr HAt hrw<53> who will make offerings, who will stand at the tomb (on) the day

<54> Hrs sAy=f hnkyt<54> of burial, who will prepare a bier

<55> nt Xrt-nTr iw wp.n n=i bA=i r=f wS<56>b=f<55> for the necropolis. My soul opened his mouth to me, he answered

m Htp

Jenny==============================================================================

From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:07:56 +0400

Hello Jenny!

>line 35 - Timothy, where you wrote <35> nw.t di=k, I >think you'll find the>arm is a determinative, not 'di'. In hieratic the D40 >arm is usually written>as D36.

>[nn nw.t(w)=k>You will not be cared for. (passive)]

OK Jenny, you are right (I haven't found meaning 'net' for'nw.t'). I think that this construction *nn nw.t=k* showus infinitive with nn ? express non-performance ornon-occurrence of verbal action according to Gardiner(paragraph 307, Page 231) rather than passive subjunctivewith nn negation.

nn nw.t=k xnrj nb Hr Dd

Means: without care of you, every prisoner (you) aresaying

If *Hr Dd* mean that every prisoner are saying nextsentence would be:

iw=n Hr jTj.t=k

'We have to take you away.'

(You can find on page 288 in Allen 'jr jw z(j) nb .....mrdj sDm.tw n=*sn*' If any man will come....don't let THEMbe listened to)

nn nw.t=k have passive meaning according to Gardiner(paragraph 307, Page 231)

'without you are cared for'

I don't understand using *xnrj nb* after nn nw.t=k.

If it were subject of action we could see 'jn' before*xnrj nb*:

nn nw.t=k jn xnrj nb Hr Dd

without you are cared for by any prisoner.....

Enigmatic sentence.

Can you help?

Timofey.

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From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:37:22 +0400

Hello Jenny!

<42> nty m mr=f aHa.n Hrj-tA Hr <43> qrs=fone who is in his pyramid, living on the earth hasattempted to his burial.

Lit. He who is on the earth has stood up concerning hisburial. (I.e. alive helped to deceased to be buried)

<43> jw=j r jrj.t njAj Hr <44> XA.t=kI have to make a shelter because of your disease

<44> sDdm=k ky bA <45> m nn.w(then) you will be sorry for another soul in weariness.

*ky bA m nnw* Means that another soul is dead-alive.

'nn.w' here is pure adverb.

As to word 'sDdm' there is some doubt in meaning:

Faulkner gives caus. 'to make envious'

Erman,Grapov give 'sympathize (with),be sorry(for),despise'

I think that it is unique word ' we can find it only inthis text, so we can only suppose its meaning.

<45> jw=j r jrj.t njAj jx <46> tm=f HzwI have to make a shelter: then he(=the soul in weariness)will not get cold.

<46> sDdm=k ky bA(then) you will be sorry for another soul.

<47> (s.t) n.t tAw swrj=j mw Hr bAbA.t Tz.y=j Swy.tIn the place of heat I will drink water at the source, Iwill set up shade (sunshade).

Erman,Grapov give 'Place on river to drink'(see 'Wb' I sent to you)

I disagree with Faulkner's translation 'eddy'

<49> sDdm=k ky bA nty HqrYou will be sorry for another soul who is hungry.

<49>jr jmh<50>=k wj r m.t pA qjIf you will restrain me from death in this way (form)

<50> nn <51> gm=k xn.t=k Hr=s m imn.t(Then) You will not find your resting place in the West

because of it.

wAH-<52>jb=k bA=j sn=j r xpr.t jwaw=jBe patient, my soul, my brother, until my heir will become

r xpr.t is r sDm.t=f form.'until my heir has come into being'

See Zonhoven page 63.

I think it is rather sDm.t=f than future pseudo-verbalconstruction

<53> drp.ty=fy aHa.t(y)=fy Hr HAt(he) who will make offerings, who will attend to the tomb(on) the day of burial.

<53>hrw <54> qrs <54> sAy=f Hnkyt n.t Xr.t-nTrHe will satisfy bed of Necropolis.

Erman,Grapov give sAj 'satisfay with'

<55> iw wpj.n n=j bA=j rA=f wS<56>b=f Dd.t.n=jMy soul has opened his mouth for me that he might answerwhat had been said by me.

RespectTimofey

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From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:57:53 +1000

On 15 June 2004, I wrote:

> <49> sDdm=k ky bA nty Hqr ir Him> <49> You will make envious another soul who is hungry. But if you restrain>> <50> =k wi r mt m pAqi nn> <50> me from death in this fashion,>> # Or is that 'lead me to death'. This is how Lichtheim prefers to read it.

I have just noticed I had forgotten to correct an error in mytransliteration. 'Him' is, of course, 'ihm'. Here the 'h' and the 'i' aretransposed so as to fit comfortably in the column. The word also appearscorrectly in line 18.

Regarding whether ihm means 'to lead' or 'to restrain', if we go back toline<12> n=f Hr stA=i r mt n iit.(i) n=f<12> to him; dragging me toward death before I had come to it,

'stA' means to drag, so to be consistent, 'to lead' seems to be the correctreading for 'ihm'. So for the moment I agree with Lichtheim.

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Timofey wrote on 17 June...>I don't understand using *xnrj nb* after nn nw.t=k.>If it were subject of action we could see 'jn' before *xnrj nb*:>nn nw.t=k jn xnrj nb Hr Dd>without you are cared for by any prisoner.....<

The way I see it, *xnrj nb* begins a new sentence, the subject of a pseudoverbal construction with Hr+infinitive.xnrj nb Hr DdEvery criminal saying:

<36> iw=i r iTt=kI will rob you.Perhaps another pseudo verbal construction with 'iw=i' as subject followedby r+infinitive (for future action). But what about the 'k', shouldn't it bea dependant pronoun? Or have I got this wrong? Does anyone else have anycomments?

nn <35> nwt=kI was reading nn nw.t(w)=k as a negated prospective in the passive. If itis 'nn' and infinitive and translated as 'without', then it would be thereto qualify the preceeding statement, and the infinitive would be active,with the soul not caring rather than not being cared for.nHmn tw Hr tfyt nn <35> nwt=k"Surely you are running away, without you caring." ???

Jenny

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From: "A.P.de Visser" <visser-25@zonnet.nl>To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:16:39 +0200

<36> iw=i r iTt=k I will rob youJenny wonders why a dependant pronun, as should be expected,is not usedhere.In the Grammar written by Zonhoven ( in Dutch) I found a possibleexplanation.He writes that in the case of a TRANSITIVE verb the suffix-pronoun ,attached to the Infinitive, indicates a semantic OBJECT.For example: < gmt=f > means <the finding of him>

This in contrast with INTRANSITIVE verbs where the attached pronounindicates a semantic SUBJECT.For example: < prt=f> means < his going out>.I think that this applies also for < r + infinitive > in the pseudo-verbalconstruction of < r iTt=k>.I look forward to comments!

Bram de Visser==============================================================================

From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba

To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 01:42:27 +0400

Hi Jenny!

Erman,Grapov give 'jhm' 'push (to death)'

(See 'Wb' I sent to you, Jenny)

So you are right that you raised a question about meaningof the word, and I take your sides.

In Russian we say: 'push to death', so I suppose inEnglish we can say 'lead to death'.

I have to do some changes in my translation:

<49>jr jmh<50>=k wj r m.t pA qjIf you will push me to death in this form

<50> nn <51> gm=k xn.t=k Hr=s m imn.t(then) you will not find your resting place in the Westbecause of it.

Now, I have understood everything entirely: the man warnhis soul that it should not push him to death, or it willbe punished ' it will not find its place in the Fields ofreed, and will become a ghost.

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From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:37:14 +0400

Dear Bram!

You wrote:

>In the Grammar written by Zonhoven ( in Dutch) I found >a possible explanation. >He writes that in the case of >a TRANSITIVE verb the suffix-pronoun, >attached to the Infinitive, indicates a semantic OBJECT.>For example: < gmt=f > means <the finding of him>

>This in contrast with INTRANSITIVE verbs where the >attached pronoun>indicates a semantic SUBJECT.>For example: < prt=f> means < his going out>.>I think that this applies also for < r + infinitive > >in the pseudo-verbal>construction of < r iTt=k>.>I look forward to comments!

OK Bram, You asked for it!

First, I want to say that it is new information for me,and I glad you gave it.

Maybe we can again spare some time for grammar than torewrite translations of so-called experts???

I took my Gardiner grammar and compare his examples ofinfinitive's using. I have understood that Zonhoven isabsolutely right:

But I have to do some supplements:

'In the case of a TRANSITIVE verb the suffix-pronoun ornoun, attached to the Infinitive, indicates a semanticOBJECT, IF THERE IS NO DIRECT OBJECT OF INFINITIVE'. Egyptian scribe could write:

gm.t=f jn Hm=f or gm.t sw Hm=f

This both examples mean 'Finding him by his Incarnation'or 'His Incarnation found him'

naj.t m-xdj jn Hm=f

'Traveling downstream by His Incarnation'.

rdj.t=f sw r (j)r(j)-pa(t) Hatj-a

'His appointing him to be hereditary noble and nomarh'.

'He appointed him to be hereditary noble and nomarh'.

In this example suffix-pronoun (=f) can't be object oftransitive verb 'rdj', because direct object (sw) iswritten. So, suffix-pronoun loose it's meaning of asemantic object and become subject of sentence. But, somebody can say that the forms shown above asexamples, are sDm.t=f forms...so I can show anotherexample with transitive verb 'jrj':

grH pf n jrj.t As.t jAkb m-sA sn=s Asjr

'That Night of Isis's making mourning for (lit. after) herbrother Osiris'.

m rdj.t n=f t-HD

'In giving to him white bread'.

Here we can see indirect object (n=f) which let to noun't-HD' (white bread) to serve as a semantic object of thetransitive verb 'rdj'. (see my rule above)

The same example:

m=k rdj.t n=j Hm.t 2

'Look: giving to me two female slaves'.

rdj.t mnTw tA.wj n jty nb-xrw-ra

'Montu's giving the two lands to monarch Nebherura'.

Here again, direct object (tA.wy) of transitive verb 'rdj'don't let the noun 'mnTw' (god Montu) to serve as theobject of the verb.

And I can write many more examples.

2. 'In the case of a INTRANSITIVE verbs the attachedpronoun or noun indicates a semantic SUBJECT'.

m prj.t=f tp.t

'in his first escaping'

m prj.t sm

'in the sm-priest's escaping'

Only one question I have:

Do we confuse infinitive with sDm.t=f form or not?

James P. Allen as understood from Jenny's summary takesseparate sDm.t=f form as completed action.

Ludovicus Martinus Johannes Zonhoven as I understood fromhis 'Studies on the sDm.t=f verb form in classicalEgyptian' don't takes separate sDm.t=f form. He takes thisform only with prepositions 'Dr', 'r' with negation 'n'.

Puzzled a bit but still alive, Timofey.

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From: "A.P.de Visser" <visser-25@zonnet.nl>To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:04:51 +0200

Hi Timofey

Thanks for your comment.Of course you are right that in the presence of a direct object thesuffixpronoun can not indicate( another) 0bject.By the way it is strange that Allen doesnot mention this special meaning ofthe suffixpronoun, in contrast to the German grammar by Graefe. He gives thesame examplesas Zonhoven.I agree that more grammatical discussions are desirableand instructive.

Kind regards Bram

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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:04:30 +0200To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaFrom: rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr

> Of course you are right that in the presence of a direct object the

> suffixpronoun can not indicate( another) 0bject. > By the way it is strange that Allen doesnot mention this special meaning of > the suffixpronoun, in contrast to the German grammar by Graefe. He gives the > same examples >

Hello,

Allen does mention and document these uses of the suffix afterinfinitive, see =A7 14.5 and 14.7.

Regards,

S. Rosmorduc

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From: "Suzette Hartwell" <suzettehartwell@hotmail.com>To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.ukSubject: AEL A man and his Ba- a contribution to lines 52 ,53,54.Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:08:49 +1000

Greetings to all list members. I would like to contribute the following-

(52) ib.k bA sn.i r kxprt tnaw.i

My Ba, my brother, untill my heir comes

(53) drt rdi twfw ahat.fw Hr HAt Hrw

He who will make offerings, he will stand a the tomb on the day

(54) qrs stA y.i Hn.k yt

of burial, having equiped (prepared) my bier.

Could I have some suggestions please on how to identify the types of sentences above, for example,are they pseudo verbal constructions? Also, in line 53, the HAt , does the 't' here make it a femine marker or is it here because 't' (previously) is placed after the arm(near the legs and feet). Hope this makes sense! Looking forward to some feedback.

Kind regards from Suzette.

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From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 22:09:02 +1000

Jumping ahead a little here to line 85, where I made an error in typesettingthe page. The 'A' bird (G1), (in square brackets because I meant to doublecheck it but forgot) should actually be G4 ...tyw (tjw).

Jenny

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From: "A.P.de Visser" <visser-25@zonnet.nl>To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL A man and his Ba- a contribution to lines 52 ,53,54.Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 19:19:52 +0200

Suzette gives for(54) the transcription:<qrs stA y.i etc.>Reading my text it should be:<qrs sAy.f etc>.Does this give another translation like <of burial,he will prepare etc.>To complete the last sentence(partly in 53 ):<he will stand at hte tomb on the day of burial and he will prepare mybier>.Is that right?Concerning the word <HAt> in (53) I dont understand the problem because,asfar as I can see, the <t> is the feminine marker of the word, for it hasbeen placed before the determinitive.I hope I am right;otherwise please comment.

Kind regards Bram==============================================================================

From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:15:09 +0400

Hello Jenny.Hello everybody.

Sacred work for sacred writing!Can anybody explain what is going on in this work?What is this work about?Is it dispute between man and Ba tired of life?I know only one thing ? it is abstract work.It is like try to understand Salvador Dali's paintings.

(56) jr sxA=k qrs n If you remember burial of X

# Second noun (after infinitive of verb 'qrs') is omitted here, so we can place there, for example, noun sj 'man': 'If you remember burial of man'

(57) HAt jb pw jn.t rmyt pw m si(58)nd sj Sdt sj pw m pr=fIt is pain of heart, it is bringing of weeping caused with mourn of a man, it is man's reading aloud in his house.

# Sdt sj pw m pr=f could mean 'taking of man from his house'

(58) xAa Hr (59)qAA

living (throwing) on high hill

# qAA can mean 'barrow' here. (58) nn pr(=j) n=k r Hrw mA=k (60) ra.wI will not escape upwards for you that you might see Ra

# nn pr=j, mA=k are subjunctive forms.

(60) sqdw m inr n (61) mAt xws zH.w m mr nfr.w m (62) kAwt nfrt

and them, who build of granite. Chambers have been built in the beautiful pyramid with a good work.

(62) xpr sqdw m (63) nTrw abA.w jry.w Sw mj nn.w (64) mt.w Hr mry.t n gAw Hr(j) tA

Builders have become gods ? their(=the god's) offering stones are empty like (those of) weary ones who have die on river bank for lack of living one.

# Hrj ? tA can mean 'heir' here.'jry.w' = '=sn' = 'their'

(65) jT n nwy pH(.wy)=fy Axw (66)m mitt jryWater has taken his(=the living one) rear away, the same (happened with) sunlight.

(67) mdw n=sn rmw (68) spt n mw.Fish of water bank address to them.

# Who are they? Weary ones?

(68) sDm r=k n=j m=k nfr sDm n r(m)T

Obey to me! Look: it is good to obey for people.

(69) Sms hrw nfr smx mH

Follow the better day and don't worry!

# lit. Follow the good day, forget concerning about

(69) iw nDs skA=f Sdw=f iw=f A(t)p=f Smw=(70)f r Hnw dpt(I can tell you about) commoner, he plough his plot. He load his harvest into his boat

# nDs is wide term. It can mean for example 'commoner, citizen, warrior, poor man'

We have already seen the same thing (unexpected statement of fact, introduced by 'jw') on line 21:jw xt.w xr=sn'It is trees that fall'I don't see any sense in these statements. Ba reminds to man about burial... and story of nDs appears. It is strange for me. (70) sTA=f sqdwt Hb=f tkn mA.n=f pr.t wxt n.t mHyt rs m dp.t

He drags sailing, he celebrates approaching when he has seen coming up of darkness of the north's storm, which waked up (appeared) near the boat

# Very difficult sentence, for example construction mA+n+f could be one of the following: sDm.n=f form (He has seen), infinitive (his seeing), subjunctive (he should see)

I don't understand connection of the word sTA (drag, pull) with the word sqdwt (sailing).

Erman, Grapov give 'rs': 'wake up, watch' (see Wb)Faulkner gives rs: 'be watchful, vigilant'

(73) ra Hr aq pr Hna Hm=fRa is entering and escaping together with his wife

# 'together with his wife' - Is she wife of nDs or Ra's wife?Wife of Ra is his hand.

(74) msw=f Aq(.w) tp S Sn m grH Xrj.w-mrytHis children have perished on the lake infested with crocodiles in the night of crocodiles.

# Xrjw-mryt 'they which under the shore' = 'crocodiles' (Wb II S. 110)

So many crocodiles in one sentence, it not just narration.

(75) Dr.jn=f Hms(.w) psS=f m xrw Hr Dd n rm=jThen, after all, he has sat, he broke silence saying:

# psS=f m xrw lit. He divided in the voice

(76) n rm=j (77) n tfA mst'I didn't weep for that woman in child-birth

(77) nn n=s pr.t m jmn.t (78) r kt Hr tA mHy=j Hr msjw=s - she can't go out from the West to become other (woman) on the earth, but I should care for her children,

# nn n=s pr.t m jmn.t lit. without going out from the West for her

nn n=s pr.t m jmn.t (78) r kt Hr tA ? It reminds to me REINCARNATION!!!

(79) sdw m swHt mAw Hr n xnty (80) n anx.t=snwho hatched out from the egg, who saw face of the Crocodile god before they had lived (the whole life)?.

# I think it was words of Ra, or of some god.

(80) jw nDs dbH=f (81) mSrwt jw Hm.t Dd=s n=f jw r msytIt is commoner, who asks for evening meal, it is his wife, who says to him: 'Will be supper'.

(82)jw=f pr=f r xntw...It is he who goes out toward foreland...

Interesting information from Serge Rosmordac concerning line (34 ? 35)

He writes:

'Well, because of the "t", I wonder if it's not the substantive "rope". The other possibility would be a passive subjunctive "nn nw=tw=k", but the writing would be strange (the rope sign before the arm is definitely a rope determinative, and the passive should be after the determinatives anyway).

The previous sentence might be of some help tfy.t with this orthography is unknown (Hannig's entry just reads"[lit]", and the Wb's entry for tfy.t is "substantiv"). However, tfi has also the meanings "to be in motion, to be agitated", in Late Egyptian; it seems to fit with the passage, so I would venture something like:

"Assuredly, you are wandering, without rope (i.e. like cattle which has escaped, its rope loose); any brigand says "I will seize you"."

Respect

Timofey==============================================================================

From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:37:53 +0400

just a thought:

mHyt rs m dp.tof north's storm visible from the boat.

Timofey

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From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:50:50 +0400

>Hrj ? tA

>Builders have become gods ? their

>lived (the whole life)?.

The question sings (?) above in my translation wereoriginally dash sings.I mean to say that I don't have doubts of my translation

Timofey

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From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:12:09 +1000

Re: Suzette's contribution, Friday, 25 June 2004 7:59 PM, a few comments onverb forms.

wAH <52> ib=k bA=i sn=i r xprt iwawOriginally I translated that as:<52> Be patient, my soul. My brother will become my heirI had another look at it and now write:<52> Be patient, my soul, my brother, until an heir exists

wAH <52> ib=k - Imperativer xprt - why does xpr have a 't' ending? Not r+infinitive as three litverbs don't take a 't'. sDmt=f after preposition 'r' has the meaning -'until'. sDmt=f expresses completed action. r sDmt=f then means untilthe time that the action is completed.

<53> drp.ty=fy aHa.t(y)=fy Hr HAt hrw<53> who will make offerings, and who will stand at the tomb (on) the day

drp.ty=fy aHa.t(y)=fy - These are both Prospective Participles(sDm.ty.fy): action that is yet to happen.

Suzette asked:> line 53, the HAt , does the 't' here make it a femine marker or is it here> because 't' (previously) is placed after the arm(near the legs and feet).

Agreeing with Bram, the 't' in HAt indicates a feminine word, not directlyrelated to the previous word with a 't' - aHa.t(y)=fy

<54> Hrs sAy=f Hnkyt<54> of burial, so that he may prepare a bier

sAy=f - Subjunctive

<55> nt Xrt-nTr<55> for the necropolis.

m HtpJenny

==============================================================================

From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:45:34 +1000

Hi Timofey,

> Sacred work for sacred writing!

>Can anybody explain what is going on in this work?

>What is this work about?

Here is my meager interpretation of this internal dialogue. The man isdebating with himself (his conscience) whether or not he deserves to live.The fact that they seem to switch sides, further enhances the turmoil goingon in his mind. He appeals to the gods for help.Perhaps the man has done something that he feels is very wrong, as a bitfurther on in the text the first of three sets of verses says "My namestinks", a good indication he has done something to tarnish his reputation.The second set - "To whom shall I speak today?" It seems everyone ismiserable and does wrong, no-one can be trusted. A time of social turmoil aswell.And then - "Death is before me today." Death is welcome.

The man is worried about worldly things, perhaps even to the point ofbelieving possessions are all important and that he can buy his way out ofhis predicament. Remember the beginning of the text "It would be crookednessto offer payment. Their tongue is not biased." The Ba has a more spiritualview, and threatens to leave him if he insists on this line of thinking.The Ba tells him to forget his worries, enjoy life and be happy, and finallyagrees to stick with him when the time comes to depart to the West.

Back to where we were - Lines 55-80

The soul begins his attempt to cheer up the man. Don't think about burial,it is too depressing. Even those who built magnificent tombs are no betteroff than those who died with no tomb. They are all dead and forgotten. Thenhe tells a couple of stories to show the man there is always someone worseoff than oneself. The first is about a man who was taking his harvest totown to sell, presumably so he will be able to afford a big party on hisfestival day. (Is that his birthday or some other celebration?) His boat iscapsized on the water and his wife and (unborn?) children die. The nextstory is an example of domestic dis-harmony.

<55> ...... iw wp.n n=i bA=i r=f wS<56>b=f............... My soul opened his mouth to me, he answered

<56> Ddt n=i ir sxA=k qrssaying to me, if you think about burial

n<57>HAt-ib pw int rmyt pw mit is sadness. It is the bringing to tears from

# According to Faulkner, the 'n' belongs to the first word of line 57. nHAt-ib - sadness, a sad matter, Faulkner Dictionary, p.136In his notes to the translation in JEA 42, p.35, note 49, "Read not HAt ibas Scharff, but nHat ib, on which see Gardiner, Admonitions, 82; Junker, 'soist das blos Herzeleid'."

si<58>nd s Sdt s pw m pr=f xAa Hrmaking a man miserable. It is removing a man from his house and throwing(him) upon

<59> qAA tA nn pr.n=k r Hrw mA=khigh ground (ie. discarding him in the necropolis). You will not go up aboveto see

nn pr.n=k - Not sure of that, though I don't think we need to add '=i',Timofey. I was thinking it was a negation of the narrative verb with futuremeaning but that is written 'nn sDm=f', and with present meaning is 'nsDm.n=f'.

<60> ra qdw m inr nthe sun. Those who have built in stone of

<61> mAt xws sHw m mr nfrw mgranite, who constructed halls in beautiful tombs with

<62> kAwt nfrt xpr sqdw mbeautiful work, where the builders became as

<63> nTrw abAw iry wSw mi nnwgods, their offering stones are desolate like the inert ones

<64> mt Hr mryt n gAw Hry-tAwho died upon the shore through lack of a survivor.

<65> iTt.n nwy pHwy.fy AxwThe flood having taken away who it can reach, the sunshine

<66> m mitt iry mdw n=sn rmwlikewise and the fish speak to them

> Fish of water bank address to them.# Who are they? Weary ones?<

Yes, the dead.

<67> spt n mw sDm rk n=i mk nfr sDm n rmTat the banks of the water. Listen to me. Look, it is good to listen topeople.

<68>Sms hrw nfr smx mH iw nDsFollow a good time, forget your cares. A commoner

<69> skA=f Sdw=f iw=f A(t)p=f Smwcultivates his plot. He carries his harvest

<70> =f r Xnw dpt sTA=f sqdwtinto a boat and tows it.

>I don't understand connection of the word sTA (drag, pull)with the word sqdwt (sailing).<

Maybe he was towing a barge behind his boat.

<71> Hb=f tkn mA.n=f prt wx(t)His festival was drawing near. He saw the darkness coming,

mA.n=f - I take as the Perfect.

<72> nt mHyt rs m dptof a northern storm, watching in the boat

<73> ra Hr aq pr Hna Hmt=fas the sun set, along with his wife (the man's wife)

aq pr - lit. 'comes and goes'.

<74> msw=f Aq tp S Sn mand his children, who came to grief upon the lake infested in

<75> grH Xr mryt Dri n=f Hmsthe night with crocodiles. When it ended for him he sat down

<76> psS=f m xrw Hr Dd n rmi=fand broke the silence saying: I do not weep

<77> n tfA mst nn n=s prt m imntfor that mother, though there is no coming forth for her from the west

<78> r kt Hr tA mHy=i Hr msw=sfor another (time) upon earth. I am concerned for her children

<79> sdw m swHt mAw Hr n xntywho were broken in the egg, who saw Khenty (the crocodile god)

<80> n anxt=sn * iw nDs dbH=f mSrwbefore they had lived. A commoner asks for the evening meal

*Beginning of next story.

That's all for now.

m HtpJenny

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From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 19:27:01 +0400

Hello Jenny!

03.05.2004 Jenny, you wrote:

># The man (and his soul) is probably addressing a group of >judges or gods,

I think, Jenny, Ba just says that 'They are impartial', 'Payment will be dishonesty', 'They are impartial'We don't know who they are.

Nobody made a NOTE, that Ba has determinative of death or enemy (!)*Z6*

It's means that man's Ba is regarded in the text as ENEMY.Or as one, who lead to death.

In Russia, for example, if you let out a secret or said something unsuccessful, somebody can say to you (as reproach): 'My tongue is my enemy'.

Lichtheim, as I understood from your letter (5 May 2004), supposes that Ba is man's rescuer, how to be with following then?

(11) m=tn bA=j Hr th.t=j n sDm.n=j n=fLook: my soul is misleading me: I do not listen to it(12) Hr sTA=j r m(w)t n jj.t(=j) n=f(Look: MY SOUL) IS DRAGGING ME TO DEATH before I have come to it.(13) Hr xAa(=j) Hr x.t r smA.t=j(Look: MY SOUL) IS THROWING ME ON FIRE TO BURN ME UP.

The first and the last time in the text the man addresses to us 'Look, you', and says that his Ba leads him to death, of course we don't know what has been said by Ba above, maybe it can be advice how to be in his predicament which as point of man's view can lead him to death. Yes, Jenny, it can be threat to leave him if he... but I don't think we know reason of threat.

But we know the reason of man's threat:

(49) jr jhm=k(50) wj r m(w)t m pA qj nn (51) gm=k xnt=k Hr=s m jmntIF YOU PUSH ME TO DEATH in this form, you will not find your place to stop on it in the West.

Man still charges his Ba with pushing him to death.Interesting things is on lines 18,19,20: bA(18)=j wxA(.w) r sdH Ah(w) Hr anxMy soul has acted foolishly in order to ease the sorrow in life.

# wxA(.w) it is stative

ihm (19) wi r m(w)t n ii.t=i n=fPUSH ME TO DEATH before I have come to it!

snDm n=j jmntMake the West to be sweet for me!

jhm wj, snDm, xntd r=k, wAH are Imperative verb forms

(20) jn jw qsnt pw pXrt pw anx jw xt.w xr=snIs it difficult? Life is a passage. Even trees are fallen

I don't know cases when tree can fall itself.

(22)xntd r=k Hr jsft(=j)Tread on my sings!

(22)wAH mAr=jDiscard my misery!

Another interesting things

(7) jm Sm Ba=j aHa=f n=j Hr=s

May my Ba not go that he might attend to it for me

I think *he* (=f) here is survivor or future heir, it (=s) can be tomb (HAt) or something in lacuna, aHa Hr means *attend to*

Compare with the following:

(42) ntj m mr=f aHa.n Hrj-tA Hr qrs=fSurvivor has attended to his burial

(53?54) aHa.t(j)=fj Hr HAt hrw qrsHe will attend to tomb on the day of burial.

We can find aHa Hr 'attend to' or 'stand up concerning'

(15) tk(n)=f jm=j hrw qsntHe is intimate to me on the day of pain

I think *he* here is a survivor

Timofey

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From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:50:56 +1000

Taking a look at 'sT' in lines 82 and 84, which appear to be:

<82> r-xntw r=s sT r At<84> n sDm.n=f n=s sT n=f

At first I thought it might be the particle 'isT', but it didn't seem tofit, and the second use has a bird deteminative (not so for a particle).

Another thought is that the two signs (s + T) are reversed, as the scribessometimes did this to make them fit better, and we have the verb 'Tsi' - tobe angry, to complain.

<82> iw=f pr=f r-xntw r=s Tsi r AtHe goes out from her to be angry for a moment.

(Though it lacks the 't' of the infinitive.)r-xntw = 'out', lit. 'to outside'. (Gardiner 205)

<83> ann=f sw r pr=f iw=f mi ky Hmt=fWhen he returns to his house he is like another (man). His wife

<84> Hr SsA n=f n sDm.n=f n=s Tsi.n=ftalking wisely to him, (reasons with him), but he does not listen to her.When he was angry

<85> wS-ib.n wpwtyw the bystanders were helpless.

Any other suggestions?

m HtpJenny

==============================================================================

From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:54:50 +0400

Hello Jenny!

My suggestions:

>At first I thought it might be the particle 'isT'

Of course Jenny, it is not particle 'jsT' or 'jst, sT', because it is non-enclitical particle, i. e. the first word in the sentence (or clause), I don't see 'sT r At' as sentence. (it is part of sentence which starts on line 82 with 'jw=f prj=f')

>and we have the verb 'Tsi' - to be angry, to complain.

I disagree, we have only consonant skeleton of unknown word (s+T), without determinative, of course (here I agree with you) these signs can be reversed, then we have 'T+s'. Of course it can be verb either 'sTj' or 'Tsj' (3ed weak) or Ts (2-lit).

I think the word can be causative (or just verb which contains two 's') and sentence can look like:

(82) jw=f pr=f r xntw r ssT r AtHe goes out to 'ssT' for the moment

i.e. we can have pseudo-verbal construction here (r + infinitive)

r=s can mean (if it not part of ssT):

1. toward it (place)2. against her (wife)

Second unknown word on line 84 has the determinative of nDs-bird (G37)! Verb Tsj 'be angry (with), bear a grudge (against)' has either papyrus roll (Y1) or (A2) as determinative. So it can't be Tsj 'be angry (with)'. I think it is unique word, in its meaning is unknown.

Line 131: mj pr.t r xntw r-sA jhm(w)t

'Like going out free after detention'

Another note, that verb 'prj' already includes meaning 'to go out, to come out' without 'r-xntw'So 'prj r xntw' means 'to go out free' or 'to go forth (in order) to be free' (It is difficult for me to translate meaning from Russian into English)

My translation is:

(As it is story, I translated it using Past tense, though in text constructions of Present tense are used)

(80) jw nDs dbH=f (81) mSrwt jw Hm.t Dd=s n=f jw r msytCommoner asked for evening meal, his wife said to him: 'Will be supper'*.

* or 'You will have (it) for supper (later)'

(82) jw=f pr=f r xntw r ssT r AtHe gone out to be free (and) to (lacuna) for a moment

(83) ann=f sw r pr=f jw=f mj ky Hmt=f Hr SsA n=f (When) he returned to his house, he was like other (man), his wife was talking wisely to him

(84) n sDm.n=f n=s sT.n=f (85) Sw jb of wpwtjw(but) he didn't listen to her, he has (lacuna) empty heart(s) of messengers

I think sense of this story is 'everything good in its time', i.e. she should give to him meal, than he would not gone and would not become 'like other (man)'

Truly yours

Timofey==============================================================================

From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Disput: 'My name stinks'To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:25:20 +0400

Hello Jenny!

(85)jw wp.n=j (86)rA=j n bA=j wSb=j Dd.t.n=fI have opened my mouth for my Ba that I might answer what had been said by it

(87)m=k baH rn=j m=k r st As.w (88) m hr.w Smw pt tAtLook: my name stinks, Look: (worse) than smell of bird's droppings* in the summer days (when) sky is hot**

* smell of bald-headed vultures (as Faulkner gives)** Smw pt tAt 'summer of hot sky'

(Erman, Grapow give As.w 'bird's droppings')

(88)m=k (89) baH rn=j m=k Ssp sbnw (90) m hrw rsf.w pt tAtLook: my name stinks, Look: fish has been taken in the day of catch (when) sky is hot

(91)m=k baH rn=j m=k r st (92) As.w r bwA.t n.t trj.w (93)Xr msytLook: my name stinks, Look: (worse) than smell of bird's droppings, (worse) than hill of reed with waterfowl

(93)m=k baH rn=j (94) m=k r st HAmw r xAz.w (95) nw sS.w HAm.n=sn.Look: my name stinks, Look: (worse) than smell of fishermen, (worse) than runnels of marshes, where they have fished*

*HAm.n=sn (Relative Perfect)

(95)m=k (96)baH rn=j m=k r st mzH.w (97)r Hmst Xr.w Xr mrywtLook: my name stinks, Look: (worse) than smell of crocodiles, (worse) than sitting below with crocodiles

(97)m=k (98)baH rn=j m=k r st Hm.t Dd grg r=s n TAyLook: my name stinks, Look: (worse) than smell of women, (when) falsehood has been said against her to man*

*it can be wife and her husband

(99)m=k baH (100)rn=j m=k r Xrd qn Dd r=f jw=f (101)jw=f n msdw=fLook: my name stinks, Look: (worse) than diligent child, (when) one said against him that he belongs to (something) what he hated*

*something masculine hated by him (Perfective relative form)

(101)m=k baH rn=j (102)m=k dmj n mzH Snn bStw mAA sA=fLook: my name stinks, Look: abode of crocodile which calls to rebellion, which sees his back

To be continued...

Timofey

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From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Disput: 'To whom shall I speak today'?To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:26:11 +0400

Hello Jenny!

(103)Dd=j n-m min sn.w bjn (104)xnmsw nw mjn n mr=njTo whom shall I speak today? Brothers are bad, today'sfriends we don't love each other (we both don't love)*

*Gardiner explains that 'nj' was written instead of n=sn(n mr.n=sn): 'today's friends, (they) don't love'.

Dd=j (105)n-m min awn jb.w sj nb Hr jTj.t (106)xt.w snwy=fyTo whom shall I speak today? Hearts has become greedy,every man is taking possessions of his fellow away

(107)jw sf Aq(.w) nxt-Hr hAw n bw-(108)nbGentleness has perished, rudeness has descended toeverybody

Dd=j n-m min Htp Hr bjn (109)rdj(=j) r=f bw-nfr r tA m s.t nb.tTo whom shall I speak today? (There is one) who is contentwith evil, but I will place goodness to the earth in everyplace*

*I will place, with respect to him, goodness to the earth in every place(I think it is 'with respect to him' rather than 'against him')

Dd=j n-m (110)min sxar sj m sp=f bjn ssbt=f (111) bw-nb jw=f DwTo whom shall I speak today? Man makes angry with his beddeed*, he makes everybody laugh (at) his crime*

* maybe 'sxar sj (wj) m sp=f bjn' man makes me angry with his bad deed** evil wrongdoing

Dd=j n-m (112) min jw HaDA tw sj nb Hr jTj.t snw=fTo whom shall I speak today? One steals, every man robshis fellow

(113) Dd=j n-m min bTw m (114)aq-jb sn jrr Hna=f xpr(115)m xtfTo whom shall I speak today? Incurable disease* in closefriend brother who acts with him has become enemy

* Erman,Grapow give bTw 'venomous snake, incurabledisease, villain'

Dd=j n-m min n sxA.t(w) sf (116)n jr.t(w) n jr m tA AtTo whom shall I speak today? Yesterday is not remembered*,nothing has been done for good doer in this moment**

*One don't remember yesterday**One does nothing for good doer in this moment (oraction)

Dd=j n-m min (117)sn.w bjn jn.n tw m DrDr.w (118)r mtt nt jb

To whom shall I speak today? Brothers are bad, (they) havebeen brought into strangers* to correctness of heart**

* One has brought...into strangers (object is omitted)** 'mtt nt jb' honesty (?)

Dd=j n-m min Hr.w (119)Htm sj nb m Hr-m-Xrw r (120)sn.w=fTo whom shall I speak today? Faces have been perished,every man as face downcast* against his brothers

*Gardiner page 146, he explains this idiom 'i.e. abashed'I think it is mean 'Man don't look at his brothers when hemet them' i. e. Man ignore his brothers

Dd=j n-m min jb awn (121)nn wn jn n sj rhn tw Hr=fTo whom shall I speak today?Hearts have become greedy. There is no heart of man thatone might rely on it

Dd=j n-m (122)min nn mAatjw tA sp n (123)jrjw jsftTo whom shall I speak today? There is no righteous of theearth, time of those, who does evil

Dd=j n-m min jw Sw (124)m aq-jb jn.n tw m xmm (125)r srxt(=j)* n=fTo whom shall I speak today? He who empty of close friendwas brought into one, who is unknown until I complain forhim

*it is sDm.t=f form of verb (verbs of 3 lit. class don'thave an ending '.t' in infinitive)Is it causative? Causative is 'srx' 'cause to know'

Dd=j n-m min nn (126)hr-jb pf Sm Hna=f nn sw (127)wnTo whom shall I speak today? That (man) content of heart,one who walked with him, there is no him*

*he doesn't exist (it is very rare construction nn +dependent pronoun + verb).

Dd=j n-m min jw=j Atp=kwj (128)Xr mAjr n gAw aq-jbTo whom shall I speak today? I was loaded with misery forthe lack of close friend

(129)Dd=j n-m min nf Hwj tA (130)nn wn pHwj=fjTo whom shall I speak today? Wrong, what strikes theearth, there is no end of it

To be continued...

Timofey==============================================================================

From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Disput: 'Death for me today is like'To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:27:02 +0400

Hello Jenny!

(130)jw m.t m Hr=j m mjn snb (131)mrDeath for me today*: sick man has become health

*Death for me today is like, Death at my point of view islike, I think death today is like, Death seems to me today like

(lit. Death is in my face today)

It is better to explain with the help of bible:(Luke, chapter 13, 18-19)

18. Now he (Jesus) began teaching them again about theKingdom of God: 'What is the Kingdom like'? He asked. 'Howcan I illustrate it'?

19. It is like a tiny mustard seed planted in garden; soonit grows into a tall bush, and the birds live among itsbranches.

In our case man says about death.

(131)mj pr.t r xntw r-sA jhm(w)tlike going out to be free after detention*

or 'like going out to be free after sorrow'

*(Erman, Grapow give jhm 'to mourn, be sad', so I thinkjhm.t is 'sorrow')

(132)jw m.t m Hr=j m mjn mj st antjw (133)mj Hmst Xr HtAw(134)hrw TAwDeath for me today is like smell of myrrh, like sittingunder sail on windy day.

(134)jw m.t m Hr=j m mjn (135)mj st sSn.w mj Hmst Hr mryt(136)nt txtDeath for me today is like smell of lotus*, like sittingon the shore of 'country of drunkenness'

(136)jw m.t m Hr=j m mjn mj (137)wA.t Hwyt mj jw sj m mSa(138)r pr=snDeath for me today is like way of rain, like man returnedfrom expedition to they* house

*his(?) house

(138)jw m.t m Hr=j m mjn mj (139)kft pt mj sj sxt=j(140)jm r xmt n=fDeath for me today is like clear sky, like a man I snarethere until I don't know for him (?)*

**it is sDm.t=f form of verb (verbs of 2 lit. class don'thave an ending '.t' in infinitive)Anyway it is difficult to understand 'until I don't knowfor him'

(140)jw m.t m Hr=j m mjn (141)mj Abb sj mAA pr=sn jr.n=frnpwt aSAwt jT.t(?) (142)m nDrDeath for me today is like man desires to see* their house(after) he has spent many years (which were taken(?)) inimprisonment

*'mAA' is infinitive, object of the verb 'Ab'

to be continued...

Timofey==============================================================================

From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Disput: 'Truly, who is there will be'To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:27:44 +0400

Hello Jenny!

(142)wnn ms ntj jm m nTr anx(.w) (143)Hr xsf jw n jrr swtruly, who is there will be as living god opposing towrongdoing of one who does it

(143)wnn ms (144)ntj jm aHa m wjA Hr rd.t a.t stpwt(145)jm r rAw-prwtruly, who is there will be one who stands in sun's barkordering that the choicest meat* are given to temples fromthere

*the choicest things (of food)

(145)wnn ms ntj jm m rx-(146)xtw n xsf.t(w).n=f Hr spr n(147)ra xtf mdw=ftruly, who is there will be as Wiseman, who is notopposed* when he is petitioning Ra when he(=Ra) speaks

*lit. 'one don't oppose to him', this sentence is subjectof pseudo verbal construction

(147)Ddt.n n=j (148)bA jmj r=k nxwt Hr XAA nsw=j (149)pn sn=jWhat has been said to me by (my) soul: Place complaint onthis stake which belongs to me, my brother.

(149)wdn=k Hr ax (150)dmj=k Hr anx mj Dd=kMay you offer on brazier, may you be joined with {lit. on]life like you said

(150)mr wj (151)aA wjn n=k jmnt mr Hm (152)ph=k jmnt sAH Ha=k tALove me here! Push the West away! But if you'd rather*reach the West, you are to reach the land yourself.

*Here is word play:mr wj 'wish me' (imperative)mr Hm 'but if you wish'

(153)xny=j r-sA wrd=kI will rest after you become tired

(154)jx jr=n dmj n-spThen let's make abode together

(154)jw=f pw (155)HAt=f r pHwj=fj mj gmyt m sSIt is his coming...from its beginning to its end like whatwas found in papyrus roll*.

*in writing

THE END

I wait for comments, Jenny

Truly yours

Timofey Smakow==============================================================================

From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:52:46 +1000

Hi Timofey,

Well done, you've been working hard to get through all of this. I was hopingwe could ALL spend a bit more time discussing the grammar, so for those whohave any comments or queries about any part of the text, please don'thesitate to write.

Line 82>>and we have the verb 'Tsi' - to be angry, to complain.<<

Timofey wrote:>I disagree, we have only consonant skeleton of unknown>word (s+T), without determinative, of course (here I agree>with you) these signs can be reversed, then we have 'T+s'.>Of course it can be verb either 'sTj' or 'Tsj' (3ed weak) or Ts (2-lit).>>I think the word can be causative (or just verb which>contains two 's') and sentence can look like:>>(82) jw=f pr=f r xntw r ssT r At>He goes out to 'ssT' for the moment>>i.e. we can have pseudo-verbal construction here (r + infinitive

I thought about ssT but I was not satisfied with this solution even thoughFaulkner writes in his article in JEA 42 p.36, note 67: "An obscurecausative verb; Scharff, followed by Weill, suggests 'ausschimpfen' (scold,berate), but it would not be necessary for the man to go outside to expresshis annoyance with his wife (for offering him a dish he did not like?). Ihave no suggestion to offer."

And in note 70, refering to line 84: "...in the series of successive S29'sone has apparently been dropped."Well, that's a possibility, but it doesn't have to be a causative. In bothcases the first s could be a suffix pronoun.

>Second unknown word on line 84 has the determinative of>nDs-bird (G37)! Verb Tsj 'be angry (with), bear a grudge>(against)' has either papyrus roll (Y1) or (A2) as>determinative. So it can't be Tsj 'be angry (with)'. I>think it is unique word, in its meaning is unknown.

True the sparrow determinative is not indicated in Faulkner's dictionary forTsi. It does include U39, "raise, lift" - raise one's voice. Thesparrow is used for words such as small, bad, empty, ...one could say thatit is bad to raise one's voice or become angry. So it's not such an unlikelypossibility.

<82> iw=f pr=f r-xntw r=s Tsi r AtHe goes out from her and is angry for a moment.

iw=f pr=fWith the iw=f sDm=f form the pronoun (or noun) is placed after iw inanticipatory emphasis. pr=f is imperfective. "...the form occursfrequently in generalizations, characterizations, and statements of habit orcustom, with reference to vaguely present or future time." (Gardiner 463)

r-xntw r=s

> Another note, that verb 'prj' already includes meaning 'to

>go out, to come out' without 'r-xntw'

Gardiner mentions on p.585 (of vocab.), 'pri r xnt' = 'go forth abroad'.Perhaps the combination helps to emphasize that the man distanced himselffrom his wife.In section 205.3 Gardiner notes the adverbial phrase 'r xntw' = to outside.

I still think the r and s are preposition and suffix pronoun. If the writeris emphasizing going out, he would surely mention from whom or what the manwas separating himself.Gardiner 163.8. Preposition 'r' - "of separation. Hrw-r 'apart from', HAp r'conceal from', sTn r 'distinguish from', rx, siA r 'know', 'discern' one'from another'."It seems logical to include 'going out from'.

Ts(i) r AtAs I mentioned previously there is no 't' to indicate infinitive. And Ihesitate to add the suffix pronoun - Ts(i)(=f) But it does make sense."He goes forth outside from her, (where) he is angry for a moment."Or more simply, without the suffix pronoun - "He goes away from her and isangry for a moment."Can the iw=f in anticipatory emphasis apply also to the second part of thesentence?

Faulkner says: " but it would not be necessary for the man to go outside toexpress his annoyance with his wife"Not necessary, but perhaps out of respect for his wife, he vented his angerelsewhere.

m HtpJenny

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From: "A.P.de Visser" <visser-25@zonnet.nl>To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:54:18 +0200

After my holiday I read a serie of AEL mailing and will give a short commenton Timofeys translation of<ihm (19) wi r m(w)t n ii.t=i n=f>It is remarkable that Faulkner translates <ihm> into < to restrain>,insteadof < to lead >; so this is quite an opposite meaning< restrain me from death etc.>I must say it seems to be more logic then <lead me into death etc. >.

Bram

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From: "msv" <mark@vygus.freeserve.co.uk>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: AEL re: DisputeDate: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:22:30 +0100

I'd like to thank Timofey and Jenny for their tremendous effort on

translating this text for us. Their comments on words / grammar have beenmost enlightening.

Thanks

mark

==============================================================================

From: "A.P.de Visser" <visser-25@zonnet.nl>To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:38:45 +0200

Sorry for my former comment on the meaning of <ihm>. Faulkner gives thetranslation <to restrain>,but this word does not have an opposite meaning of< lead into>This was a wrong conclusion due to a little manco in my knowledge of theEnglish language.In my English-Dutch dictionary I found something like <to lock up>,so youcould get <lock me into death etc.>

Bram

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From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:32:20 +0400

Hello Mark!

Thank you for your words, you are owner of THE BESTLINGUISTIC AE SITE IN THE WORLD.

Hello Bram and Jenny

In Russia we say 'push to death'

Lichtheim gives 'lead to death'

A. Erman, H. Grapow give 'hurry, hasten (to death)'

R. O. Faukner gives 'restrain'

WHERE IS THE TRUE?

Does Ba want to see him to be dead (push, hurry) or alive(restrain)?

Is Ba friend (restrain) or enemy (push, hurry)?

I know only one thing: our word has determinative ofactions demanding power, strong (D40, A24)

I think Ba is friend, but word (jhm) means push/hurry,

hasten/lead to death

It is at point of man's view that Ba is enemy.

At my point of view our man some kind of panic monger (oralarmist), his mental health was undermined by terror offirst intermediate period

Nothing wanders IF he wants to die.

Allen page 253

It must be from text of Ipuwer.

jw ms wr Srj Hr <Dd> mr=j mt=j

Truly, the great and the small are sayng: 'I wish I woulddie'

NOTE that even small (Srj) says 'I would like to die',though revolution (or rebellion) it is good chance for'small' to seize possessions which he never has (!).

Best wishes Timofey Smakow

P. S.

Does anybody have Hannig Dictionary (to know what he givesfor jhm)?

==============================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:49:24 +0200To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.ukFrom: Elena MOLTCHANOVA <moltchan@iiasa.ac.at>Subject: AEL Dispute

I'ld also like to thank Timofey and Jenny for their huge effort.Unfortunately due to a move I was to busy to concentrate on the text, but I hope to go through it at a more leisurely pace and I am sure your notes will be of great use to me. I hope I will also be allowed to raise some points of interest regarding this fascinating text later on.Enjoy the summerElena

Elena MOLTCHANOVAForestry ProjectIIASAInternational Institute for Applied Systems AnalysisA-2361 Laxenburg, Austria==============================================================================

From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute: Some notesTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:07:24 +0400

Hello Jenny and Bram!

Some notes:

Cases when 's.t' is omitted in the text:

Line 38: (s.t) n.t jb 'place of heart'Line 47: (s.t) n.t tAw 'place of heat'Line 51: (s.t) xn.t=k Hr=s 'place, on which you can rest' (Perfective relative form).

Jenny you wrote:

><56> ir sxA=k qrsif you think about burial

I'd rather translate it:

(56)jr sxA=k qrsIf you recall burial ><59> qAA tA

There is no 'tA' there (N23,Z1 are determinatives), just 'qAA' 'hill'

><59> nn pr.n=k r Hrw mA=k>You will not go up above to see

>nn pr.n=k - Not sure of that, though I don't think we need to >add '=i',>Timofey. I was thinking it was a negation of the narrative verb >with future>meaning but that is written 'nn sDm=f', and with present >meaning is 'n>sDm.n=f'.

This construction doesn't exist, Jenny. Because of you follow to translations of experts (Faulkner, Lichtheim) you loose in grammar.

From 'jr sxA' to 'qAA' it is PROTASIS (subordinate conditional clause)

From 'nn pr(=j)' to 'jnr n mAT' it is APODOSIS (main clause)

# nn pr=j, mA=k are subjunctive forms.

Example in English:'If I paint a nice picture, I will present it to you''If you recall burial: it is..., I will not go out upwards for you that you might see Ra (and) those, who build of granite.

I can see in the text:

'nn pr n=k'

1. Construction nn sDm=f doesn't exist2. I don't see subject of action pr 'go out, come out', so it is suffix pronoun (=j) which isn't written.

><61> xws sHw m mr nfrw mwho constructed halls in beautiful tombs with

I think that grammar was ignored by experts here to get understandable translation:

In the word 'builders' 'sqd.w' (participle used as noun) in the text, we can see three (!!!) determinatives (A24,A1,Z2) and either plural or participle ending 'w'

In the word 'xwsj' we can see only one determinative (A24), nothing says that it is participle: 'who constructed halls'.

It is Passive:xws Hz.w means 'Chambers have been built'

If 'xws' were participle (who constructed), we would have ending 'w' which is written in the word 'builders' above on line 60 and 'xpr=sn m nTr.w' *they have become gods* on line 62.

i. e. (I took part of Jenny translation)'Those who have built in stone of granite, who constructed halls in beautiful tombs with beautiful work, they became as gods

Word 'sqd.w' was written hypercorrect, but the same participle noun *xws* don't have even plural ending 'w' (!!!). It is impossible, so xwsj is the Passive.

><62> kAwt nfrt xpr sqdw m>beautiful work, where the builders became as

I think 'xpr sqdw m nTrw' it is main, not subordinate (where the builders became as...) clause. So it is separate:

Builders have become gods ' their(=the god's) offering stones are empty like (those of) weary ones who have die on river bank for lack of living one.

><65> iTt.n nwy pHwy.fy Axw>The flood having taken away who it can reach

'who it can reach' (???)What do you mean? You mean it is pH.(tj)=fj 'who will reach it', I don't see tj and determinative of legs (D54)pHwy=fy means 'his (or its) both hinder parts' or just 'his end'We can't translate it 'who it can rich'It is means: The flood having taken away his hinder parts (or his end)?

rs m dp.t ra Hr aq pr Hna Hmt=f

Who guards (who is awake) in the boat (when) Ra is entering (and) going out together with his wife.

i. e. they both were awake in the boat.

<74> msw=f Aq tp S Sn mand his children, who came to grief upon the lake infested in

'who came to grief' and 'and his children'

I don't think that first is participle and second is subordinate (AND his children)

It is main stative clause:Ms.w=f Aq(.w) tp S Sn'His children have perished on the lake infested with crocodiles'

Other notes:

(34,36)

nHm.n tw Hr tfy.t nn nw(H)tTruly: one is running without rope

dj=k xnrj nb Hr Dd jw=j r jT.t=kMay you cause to any prisoner, saying* 'I have to take you'

*you say

(39) Hr <Dd> jr sDm n=j Ba=jis saying: 'If my Ba listens to me ...

<Dd> is omitted, because direct speech follows.

># I found a few references to Isdes :>Spell 155 of the Coffin texts says "I know the souls of the New >Moon: they are Osiris, Anubis, and Isdes(10)." (note 10, ie. >Thoth.) - >Faulkner.>Spell 27 Coffin texts: "O Isdes, give speech to N.">Budge's dictionary = "one of the company of Thoth."

Information about Isdes (from the book 'AE Mythology' Jadwiga Lipinska, Marek Marciniak, Warsaw, 1977 (Poles))

ISDES ' god of the dead, he was represented in the shape of black dog (jackal?) like Anubis, he was personified with Anubis in the Greek-Roman period. He is known from the text of Middle Kingdom as LORD OF THE WEST AND JUDGE OF THE KINGDOM OF THE DEAD. LATELY (it is for Jenny) he was connected with Toth, sometimes he was supposed as one of the Toth's incarnation.

Truly yours

Timofey==============================================================================

From: "A.P.de Visser" <visser-25@zonnet.nl>

To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute: Some notesDate: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:10:14 +0200

<59> nn.pr.n=k etc.Zonhoven gives in his grammar the example:< r gr.w n mdw.n.f > which he translates as:<the mouth is silent,he CAN NOT speak >(of course this is my own translation from Dutch).So in <59> : You can not go up etc. >Moreover Gardiner on page 334 mentions this sentence and translates:< never willt thou go up above>.

Bram

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From: "A.P.de Visser" <visser-25@zonnet.nl>To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:22:31 +0200

I took a look in Hannig and he gives to my surprise<zuruckhalten> whichmeans <to retain> or <to keep back>.Now I wonder once more if this is anopposite meaning of your and others translations, namely<< to retain FROM death>.Is this reasonable or nonsense?

Kind regards Bram

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From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute: Some notesTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:57:41 +0400

Dear Bram

I think we don't understand each other

It is from teachings of Ptahhotep

rA gr.w n mdw.n.f

><the mouth is silent,he CAN NOT speak >

The mouth has become silent, he don't speak (or 'he can't speak')

Stative (the result of action) + n sDm.n=f construction (negation of present action)

Do you mean that nn sDm(=j) n=f the same as n sDm.n=f?????????

I say another time:

CONSTRUCTION nn sDm.n=f DOESN?T EXIST !!!

THERE IS CONSTRUCTION ONLY WITH ONE 'N' (N sDn.n=f)

It is not negation of infinitive nn pr.t n=f, because there is no 't'.

You don't note what Gardiner writes:

'The examples of this construction are SCANTY, OBSCURE, and sometimes even possibly CORRUPT'

I say: there is no this construction (nn sDm.n=f), it is either scribe's error (he intended to write n sDm.n=f) or other construction (nn sDm(=j) n=f)

nn pr(=j) n=k

'I will not go out upwards for you (that you might see Ra (and) those, who build of granite)'.

Ba says: 'I will not fly up toward sky for you (=man) that you might see Ra and builders'.

Truly yours

Timofey

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From: "A.P.de Visser" <visser-25@zonnet.nl>To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:19:12 +0200

A short return to former columns:(67) < nfr sDm n rmT> : It is good to listen to peopleor : It is good for people to listen( a.o.Lichtheim)

(70) ..........sTa=f sqdwt>. Hannig translates:<schleppt eine Wegstrecke>;in English< drags a stretch>.

Bram

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From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Cc: "Timofey Shmakov" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:11:21 +1000

Greetings All,

A few more lines, not too different from Timofey's:

iw wp.n=i <86> r=i n bA=i wSb=i Ddt n=f mkI opened my mouth to my soul and I answered what he had said. Look,

wp.n=i - Perfect

wSb=i - Perfective (sometimes called indicative sDm=f)Ddt.n=f - Perfect Relative

<87> baH rn=i mk r st(y) Aswmy name stinks. Look. More than the smell of vultures

r - used comparatively - 'more than'Asw - Yes, Faulkner has 'As'- 'bald headed vulture'. And the next entry,'As' with (Aa2) pustule or gland determinative, variations of iAs, 'bald',and Ais, 'viscera' (internal organs). So that backs up the bald headedvulture with its bird determinative.Aa2 also used for wounds, bodily growths or conditions, determinative forexcrement.'Bird droppings' could also be possible, I suppose, but why not use Hs for'excrement', and why not Aa2 as a determinative for the word in out currenttext?

<88> m hrw.w Smw pt tAt mkon summer days when the sky is hot. Look,

(or) - 'on summer days of a hot sky.' -with tAt being an adjective withfeminine ending to match 'pt' sky.

<89> baH rn=i mk (r) Ssp sbnwmy name stinks, look, (more than) a catch of fish

Faulkner notes in JEA 42 p.24, that 'r st(y)' has been omitted.('more than the smell of) a catch of fish'

<90> m hrw rsf pt tAton a day of the catch when the sky is hot.

<91> mk baH rn=i mk r st(y)Look, my name stinks, more than the smell

<92> A{p}sw r bwAt nt twrwof vultures, more than a thicket of reeds

A{p}sw - the scribe has slipped in a 'p', which makes me think he wasthinking birds rather than droppings.

<93> Xr msyt mk baH rn=ipossessing (full of) wildfowl. Look, my name stinks

<94> mk r st(y) HAmw r xAswmore than the smell of fishermen, more than the marshy creeks

<95> nw sSw HAmw n=sn mk they have fished. Look, ...

xAsw nw sSw - lit: creeks of marshes

m HtpJenny

From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Cc: "Timofey Shmakov" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:56:30 +1000

<87> baH rn=i mk r st(y) Aswmy name stinks. Look. More than the smell of vultures

A quick note on vultures, which must surely have bad breath, at least, frombeing carrion eaters.

===========================

<96> baH rn=i mk r st(y) msHwmy name stinks, more than the smell of crocodiles,

<97> r Hmst Xrw mrywt Xr mrywt mkmore than sitting under riverbanks with crocodiles. Look,

N23 could be determinative for Xrw - base, lower part, underside, below,etc., as Timofey has it: - r Hmst Xrw Xr mrywt - sitting below withcrocodilesOR it could be an ideogram for mrywt - riverbanks.r Hmst Xrw mrywt Xr mrywt - sitting under riverbanks with crocodiles.I prefer the latter because of the two sets of plural signs.The meaning is pretty much the same though.

<98> baH rn=i mk r st(y) Hmt Dd grgmy name stinks, look, more than the smell of a woman of whom wrongdoing issaid

'Dd grg r=s' "of whom wrongdoing is said" (I think) is an indirect relativeclause. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I still get confused withparticiples and relative forms.)

<99> r=s n TAy mk baH to the man. Look

<100> rn=i mk r Xrd qn Dd r=f iw=fmy name stinks, look, more than a sturdy child of whom it is said

<101> iw=f n msdw=f mk baH rn=ithat he belongs to him who is hated. Look, my name stinks

Faulkner says this refers to the child being the offspring of adultery.

<102> mk (r) dmi n ity Snn bStw <103> mAA sA=flook, (more than) a sovereign's town (abode) where one who incites rebellionwatches his back.

# the crocodile sign with no additional phonetic elements could bemsH - crocodileity - sovereign (even though there are usually two crocodile signs)skn - greedy, lust afterHnt - be greedyaXm - voracious spiritAd - aggressionI think 'sovereign' best fits with the rest of the sentence.

Snn - from Sni - 'to enquire into' (enquires into secrets)bStw - rebellion(Faulkner - 'utter sedition')

mAA sA=f - Imperfective.

m HtpJennyFrom: "A.P.de Visser" <visser-25@zonnet.nl>To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:53:32 +0200

A few remarks on Jennys translation and interesting notes<87> baH rn=i etc.Faulkner translates <baH> by< be detested> with areference to this column.It is strange that Hannig does not mention this verb at all.

<97>r Hmst Xrw mrywt Xr mrywt < more than sitting under riverbanks with crocodiles>. This seems a bit incorrect because it is not the sitting that stinks,butthe riverbanks themselves.I think that it is therefore that Lichtheim translates:< more than a shore-site full of crocodiles>.Maybe a rather free translation but it has more logic.

<98> baH rn=i mk r st(y) Hmt Dd grg < my name stinks,look,more than the smell of a woman of whom LIESARE TOLD (instead of < wrongdoing is said> ).Indeed a Relative Form.

BramFrom: "A.P.de Visser" <visser-25@zonnet.nl>To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:45:03 +0200

<102> mk(r) dmi n ity Snn bStw< 103 > mAA sA=fI think that <Snn> is a participle belonging to < dmi n ity>so that ,cf. Faulkner, you could get:<look, ( more than) a souvereign,s town, that utters sedition when itwatches his back or (like Lichtheimmore freely) behind his back >.

What do you think? BramFrom: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:38:49 +0400

Hello Jenny and Bram!

><102>dmi n ity>a sovereign's town (abode)

I absolutely disagree.

Do you mean they could write it only with one crocodilesign (!!!!) and WITHOUT DETERMINATIVE OF GOD(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

It is impossible!!!!Word 'sovereign' OLWAYS HAS DETERMINATIVE OF GOD ORKING!!!!!!!!!!!(G7, A304, A40, A23, A21A)

Timofey

From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:57:50 +1000

><97>r Hmst Xrw mrywt Xr mrywt> < more than sitting under riverbanks with crocodiles>.> This seems a bit incorrect because it is not the sitting that stinks,but>the riverbanks themselves.>I think that it is therefore that Lichtheim translates:>< more than a shore-site full of crocodiles>.>Maybe a rather free translation but it has more logic.

But what about Hmst - sitting?

<102> mk(r) dmi n ity Snn bStw< 103 > mAA sA=f>I think that <Snn> is a participle belonging to < dmi n ity>>so that ,cf. Faulkner, you could get:><look, ( more than) a souvereign,s town, that utters sedition when it>watches his back or (like Lichtheim>more freely) behind his back >.

Yes, I've been wondering about that.Snn - if it was "one who utters sedition" (as I suggested) it would probablyhave an A1 man at the end, which it doesn't. But I found it odd that a wholetown would utter sedition. Though grammatically it seems to be that way.

Parkinson, Lichtheim, Faulkner all translate this something like:"more than a town of the sovereign which utters sedition behind his back."

But I don't get 'behind'. Where does that come from? ...Ah, of course ..."When it sees his back", I suppose, would mean when hisback is turned to the town.

Re: ity - sovereign. I know it is most unusual but variations can occur.Faulkner has one entry on page 33, where 'it(y)' is spelled phoneticallywith the reed flower and the bread, with no god or king sign.

m HtpJenny

==============================================================================

From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:48:28 +0400

Hello Bram!

>Maybe a rather free translation but it has more logic.

We all try to get understandable or logical translation instead of thinking about grammar.

Timofey

From: "Timofey"

I still disagree

Sinuhe (line 12-13, 9 (Berlin 3022, 11-20)

sAH.n=j r dmj n gAwI have reached town of long horned bull

There are the same (which includes animal) names in Old Kingdom:

jA.t msH.t (hill of female crocodile)iw wnS (island of wolf)

There is name in modern Egypt:

Com-Ombo (hill of crocodile)

So dmj n mzH 'town of crocodile'

Timofey

From: "Jenny Carrington"

Line <102>

If it is 'town of the crocodile', is it meant to be a specific town? One would expect that in a historical text, but these all seem to be symbolic images of life.

May I quote Richard Parkinson in his book "The Tale of Sinuhe and other Ancient Egyptian Poems" Oxford 1997. p.163, note 27:

"This lyric ends not on a personal level, but with a description of dissent in the state; this wider horizon is developed in the following lyric. The motif of crocodiles continues indirectly through puns: sovereign is normally written with two crocodile hieroglyphs and the verb to utter treason is homonymous with to 'be infested with crocodiles' (74)."

Jenny

From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:00:19 +0400

Hello Jenny!

>'sovereign is normally written with two crocodile hieroglyphs'

The most important note is that there is no determinativeof 'divine being'.

In all cases (even with one crocodile) determinative mustbe after this holy word 'sovereign'.

We could find determinative of god after all god names inthe text, so we can expect it after word 'sovereign'.

I have no doubt that the reason is that our word means'crocodile' 'mzH'.

Timofey

==============================================================================

From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:44:59 +0400

Hello Jenny!

>If it is 'town of the crocodile', is it meant to be a specific town?

Yes Jenny, it could be real town or settlement.

>One would expect that in a historical text, but these all seem >to be symbolic images of life.

I don't think so. In 'To whom shall I speak today' our hero tells about events really happened in first intermediate period.'Everything is bad' we can say it shorter.

Symbolic images of life are for 'My name stinks', 'Death for me today'.

>'is homonymous with to 'be infested with crocodiles' (74)."

Yes Jenny our text really 'infested with crocodiles'

(74) S Sn 'Lake infested with crocodiles'(75) grH Xr mrywt 'night with crocodiles (lit. 'they who on the bank'='bankers')(79) Hr n xnty 'face of crocodile god'(96) r st msH.w 'worse than smell of crocodiles'(97) Hms.t Xr.w Xr mrrywt 'sitting below with crocodiles' (102) dmj n mzH 'town of crocodile'

Truly yours

jj.n n=j 4 sS m Htp, sin=j n ky

Timofey

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From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Cc: "Timofey Shmakov" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:00:44 +1000

<103> ..... Dd=i n m min snw binTo whom shall I speak today? Brothers are bad.

<104> xnmsw nw min n mr.ny Dd=iFriends of today do not love.

n mr.ny - It could be the obsolete dual, ny - 'we two', since the previousline talks about brothers, or his 'second'. Though Gardiner (486) says thetwo strokes are in the place of an omitted subject - which would make 'nmr.n=sn'.

<105> n m min awn-ib s nb Hr iTtTo whom shall I speak today? Every man is rapacious, seizing

awn-ib - be rapacious

<106> xt snwy=fyhis brother's things.

<107> iw sf Aq nxt Hr hAw n bw-Gentleness has perished. Violence descends on everyone.

<108> nb Dd=i n m min Htp Hr binTo whom shall I speak today? (One is) content with evil.

<109> rdi rf bw nfr r tA m st nbt Dd=i n m Goodness is neglected in every place. To whom shall I speak

bw-nfr - noun, 'good, goodness' . Faulkner p.131 under nfr.rf - enclitic particle, for emphasis.rdi r tA - 'cast on the ground' (neglected)

<110> min sxAr s m sp=f bin ssbt<111>=f bw-nbtoday? A man who enrages with his bad conduct makes everyone laugh

or is that "who is enraged"?Actually, according to Parkinson, Lichtheim and Faulkner, sxAr is translatedas 'who should enrage', which

"... brings out the intended contrast between what ought to be the state ofaffairs and what actually happens." (Faulkner, JEA42, p.38, note 92.)

So does that make 'sxAr' a Subjunctive? or a Participle (as it includes'who')?

iw=f Dw Dd=i n mwhen he is bad. To whom shall I speak

<112> min iw HaDA.tw s nb Hr iTt snwytoday? Every man has been plundered and is robbing his brother.(OR) One plunders, every man robbing his brother.

The question is, does 's nb' (every man) go with 'iw HaDA.tw' or with 'HriTt snwy'. ie. Is 's nb' the subject, with a sDm=f verb and passive suffix

(every man has been plundered), or is 'tw' the subject (one plunders) whichwould make 's nb' the subject of the following pseudi-verbal constructionwith Hr infinitive? Can 's nb' act as the subject of both clauses?iw HaDA.tw s nb - adverbial clauses nb Hr iTt snwy - pseudi-verbal construction.???

<113> =f Dd=i n m min btA m To whom shall I speak today? The wrongdoer is

btA - Faulkner JEA42, note 94: "it thus appears that owing to a certainresemblance in hieratic between U30 and V15, the scribe has perpetrated a'vox nihili' (empty word) conflated out of 'wrongdoing' and 'disease'. Theformer is of course the word required."

'm' at end of line is the m of predication

<114> aq-ib sn ir Hna=f xpran intimate friend, and the brother with whom he used to act, has become

<115> m xft(y) Dd=i n m min n sxA.t(w) sfan enemy. To whom shall I speak today? Yesterday is not remembered,

<116> n ir.t(w) n ir m tA At Dd=i n m minone does not do for the doer at this moment. To whom shall I speak today?

Meaning that one forgets the help that was given previously, and does not now offer to help the person who helped him.

ir - 'the doer' has seated man determinative which indicates it is a noun.

Jenny

From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:28:49 +1000

Timofey brought to my attention an error I made in>Line (111):>jw=f Dw 'His evil wrongdoing'>>I don't see and think it is verb 'jw=f Dw' 'when he is bad' ...

>jw + determinative of nDs bird ...

I was working from the transliteration and read 'iw' as the particle. Ishould have checked the glyphs again. Of course 'iw' is 'wrongdoing'.

m Htp

Jenny

==============================================================================

From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:11:14 +1000

<117>snw bin inn tw m DrDrwBrothers are evil. One brings in strangers

<118> r mtt nt ib Dd=i n m min Hrwfor affection. To whom shall I speak today? Faces

r mtt nt ib - 'affection'. lit: 'straightforwardness of heart'Parkinson has 'honesty'.I suppose 'someone to confide in' would fit the theme.

<119> Htm s nb m Hr m Xrw tA rare destroyed. Every man is with face downcast towards

<120> snw=f Dd=i n m min ibw awnhis brothers. To whom shall I speak today? Hearts are covetous.

<121> nn wn ib n s r hn.tw Hr r=f Dd=i n m No man has a heart on which to rely. To whom shall I speak

<122> min nn mAatyw tA sp n today? There are no just men, and the land is abondoned to

<123> irw isfwt Dd=i n m min iw Swthose who do wrong. To whom shall I speak today? There is a lack

irw - masculine plural imperfective participle

<124> m aq-ib inn tw m xmmof an intimate friend. One brings in one who is unknown

<125> r srxt n=f Dd=i n m min nnin order to complain to him. To whom shall I speak today? There are none

<126> hr ib pfA Sm Hna=f nn swcontented. That one who used to walk with him, he does not

<127> wn Dd=i n m min iw=i Atp=k<128>wiexist. To whom shall I speak today? I am burdened

Xr mAr n gAw aq-ibwith misery through lack of an intimate friend.

<129> Dd=i n m min nf Hwi tATo whom shall I speak today? Wrongdoing roams the land.

<130> nn wn pHwy=fy It has no end.

m Htp

JennyDate: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:13:54 +0200To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.ukFrom: Elena MOLTCHANOVA <moltchan@iiasa.ac.at>Subject: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba 34-36

Dear all,I am sorry that I couldn't keep up with the translation of this fascinating text. However, since you seem to be reviewing some details of the recent translation, I dare to return to lines 34-36 in search for some clarification, because I haven't found any clear conclusion in the archive. I hope for some comments and apologize if I was reading inattentively and missed the pertinent discussion.

<33> Dd=i n Sm=iI say: I will not follow.

<34> iw nfA r tAThose are towards the land (?)

***(I can't understand this phrase at all. I think that iw and nHmn should also be the first word in a sentence or a phrase so the 'limits' at least should be clear. But I understand neither the meaning nor the grammar of this one.)

<35>nHmn=tw Hr tfyt nn <35> nwt=kSurely you are leaping carelessly(I believe both are infinitive forms)

xnri nb Hr Dd <36> iw=i r iTt=kEvery criminal is saying: I will take posession of you.

iw grt=k m(w)=t(i) rn=k <36> anx.(w)Moreover you are dead but your name is alive. I interpret this as a stative, although I am not sure what the stative of m(w)t should be. Is it m(w)=t(i) or m(w)t=t(i). If it is the latter then is it unlikely that the whole ending ti should be missing?

I happen to have a translation of the text into Russian by Maria Endel (I think it's the only full Russian translation) and there she translates this piece as follows: "I said: I will go there towards the land, and you will truly go away (?). Nobody will take care of you. Any criminal will say: "I will seize you." You have found rest and your living name is dead."

I don't really understand the logic behind all of the translation, but the last sentence seem to be interesting. Can 'grt' have any meaning besides the 'moreover' particle?

Hope for some enlightment from the list,Cheers,Elena

From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:38:13 +1000

Hi Elena,It's good to have you joining in. A few thoughts:

<33> Dd=i n Sm=i<33> I said: I have not gone.

n Sm=i - I think this is the negated perfective, used for the negation ofpast or completed action. (Allen 20.5)

<34> iw nfA r tA nHmn tw Hr tfytThose are to the ground. Surely you are running away (lit: leaping).

nfA - demonstrative pronoun here used as a noun, with adverbial predicate.r tA - 'to the ground' Refering back to the riches, which he has renounced(or lost).[See also<109> rdi rf bw nfr r tA m st nbtGoodness is neglected in every place.#rdi r tA - 'cast on the ground' (neglected)]

nHmn tw - dependant pronoun after particle, followed by pseudo-verbalconstruction with Hr+infinitive.

nn <35> nw.t(w)=k xnri nb Hr Dd <36> iw=i r iTt=kYou will not be cared for. Every criminal saying; "I will take possession ofyou."

nw.t(w) - passive suffix with sDm=f

<36>iw grt=k mt rn=k <37> anxNow, (ie, if you stay with me), when you die, your name will live.

This is odd, I would expect grt to come after the suffix pronoun. Anyway'grt' indicates a new paragraph, or line of thought.

The man is saying he is not the one who is deserting. He is not clinging to

his possessions, he has cast them to the ground, set them aside or at leastacknowledges that they mean nothing to him. He accuses the Ba of desertinghim, and making himself vulnerable out on his own. Criminals are denied anafterlife, so if they can find a free ranging soul they would take it forthemselves and so survive. The man then tells the soul if he stays with himeverything will be alright.

m HtpJennyFrom: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:22:40 +1000

<130> ... iw mt m Hr=i m min (mi) snbDeath is in my sight today. Like the recovery

<131> mr mi prt r xntw r-sA ihmtof a sick man, like going outside after detention.

<132> iw mt m Hr=i min mi stDeath is in my sight today. Like the smell

an<133>tyw mi Hmst Xr HtAwof myrrh, like sitting under sails

<134> hrw TAw iw mt m Hr=i minon a windy day. Death is in my sight today.

<135> mi st sSnw mi Hmst Hr mrytLike the smell of lotuses, like sitting on the shore

<136> nt txt iw mt m Hr=i min miof drunkenness. Death is in my sight today. Like

<137> wAt Hwyt mi iw s m mSathe falling of rain, like a man returning from an expedition

wAt HwytwAt - looks like the obvious 'road, way', but I'm wondering if it might be'falling'. Infinitive of wAi - to fall, (usually 'into decay'). (Even though'hAi' is the usual writing of 'fall' down.)Hwyt - Faulkner has this exact word in his dictionary meaning rain, but inhis article in JEA42, he (and Erman before him) says it is a miswriting of'trodden'. (As do other translations.)This construction looks the same as in the following verse where <139> kftpt means "the clearing of the sky", (the subject of the infinitive isexpressed by the direct genitive). A nice pairing of lines - the falling ofthe rain, and the clearing of the sky.

Though the 'well trodden path', for one returning home, is also attractive.(See below for some more thoughts on 'wAt Hwyt'.)

<138> r pr=sn iw mt m Hr=i min mito their home. Death is in my sight today. Like

'their home' - ie. of his wife and children.

<139> kft pt mi s sxtthe clearing of the sky, like a man who acquires

<140> im r xmt.n=f iw mt m Hr=i minthere (learns) what he did not know. Death is in my sight today.

<141> mi Abb s mAA pr=sn ir.n=f rnpwt aSAwt iTt <142> m nDrtLike a man wishes to see their home when he has spent many years in prison.

Abb - Imperfective in adverb clause; notion of repetition. (Gardiner.444)lit: he made many years passing

==========================================

Taking a look at the pattern of these lines in trying to decide the meaningof 'wAt Hwyt'.

Like the recovery of a sick man,like going outside after detention.

## both refer to being released from confinement.

Like the smell of myrrh,like sitting under sails on a windy day.

## both refer to moving air.

Like the smell of lotuses,like sitting on the shore of drunkenness.

## both refer to intoxication.

Like the falling of the rain,like a man returning home from an expedition.

## following the pattern, logically this should be 'like the well troddenpath', as the way home would surely be. Both refering to a journey.But 'the falling of rain' also fits with the following verse, ('the clearingof the sky'). Perhaps the scribe meant to give it a double meaning.In a low rainfall area, the falling of rain is a cause for much jubilation,as is one's return home.

Like the clearing of the sky,like a man who acquires there (learns) what he did not know.

## the clearing sky is like when you finally understand something (the foglifts from your brain!) Perhaps the man learnt something on the expedition,which would connect these two verses even more.

Like a man wishes to see their homewhen he has spent many years in prison.

## doesn't really fit the pattern but relates to the first and fourth versesof this poem:Death is going home, being released from the confines and demands of thebody.

m HtpJenny

From: "Jenny Carrington" <carrington@impulse.net.au>To: "AEL" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 09:44:16 +1000

<142> ... wnn ms nty im m nTr anx... Surely, (he) who is there shall be a living god

wnn - prospectivems - enclitic particle - surely, indeed (hints at something overlooked bythe person addressed.)nty im - singular of 'those who are there' - ie. the dead.

<143> Hr xsf iw n irr sw wnn msredressing wrongdoing of one who does it. Surely,

(or punishing, depending on whether the 'living god' is one to fear or onewho sets things right in a positive way.)

<144> nty im aHa m wiA Hr rdit di.t(w) stpthe who is there, shall stand in the sacred barque, causing to be given thechoice things

Hr rdit - pseudo-verbal with Hr+infinitive, followed bydi.t(w) - passive of the Subjunctive sDm=f (rather than 'at')."causing that the choice things be given"Either that or it's another infinitive ((r)dit). Any ideas?

Gardiner 70 - "The verb (r)di 'give' 'place' often takes as object anotherverb in the sDm=f form, and then means 'cause' or 'allow'."Allen, 19.10 - "The combination of rdi plus the subjunctive has causativemeaning."

<145> im r rw-prw wnn ms nty im m rx

therefrom to the temples. Surely, he who is there shall be

<146> xt n xsf ntf Hr spr na wise man, who is not prevented from appealing to

rx xt - 'one who knows things'

<147> ra xft mdw=f Ddt.n n=iRa when he speaks. What my soul said to me:

<148> bA imi (i)r=k nxwt Hr XAA n-swPlace your complaint upon the heap, my friend,

(i)r=k - used as an enclitic particle, a mode of reinforcement common withthe imperative.HAA - with determinative of wood. (Otherwise unknown.) Faulkner - clothespeg. Lichtheim - wood heap. Parkinson - over the fence.In any case, the soul tells the man to stop complaining.n-sw - he belongs to

<149> =i pn sn=i wdn=k Hr axmy brother. You should offer upon the brazier.

I wasn't sure what to do with the 'pn' - 'this'. Is it "This (one) whobelongs to me"?

Faulkner (JEA 42, note 112): "In 'nsw=i pn' the demonstrative is used toindicate the vocative; as Erman and Scharff have both seen, nsw 'he belongsto' must be interpreted substantivally in the sense of 'relative' or'associate'." Which he translates as "my comrade (and brother)".

I suppose 'my own', (or even 'my self') might work, to give a sense ofpossession or closeness, but I'll settle for "my friend, my brother". Itseems more real in conversation.

wdn=k - Subjunctive , desirable future action. (?)

<150> dmi=k Hr anx mi Dd=k mrw=iYou should hold on to life like you (I) said. Love me

dmi=k - Subjunctive (?)Dd=k - Faulkner (JEA42, note 115) says this is in error,and should have thefirst person suffix pronoun =i. As it is the soul who has been saying thatlife is worth living.

<151> aA win n=k imnt mri Hmhere, set aside the west. Assuredly, desire

Hm - enclitic particle frequently referring to the future, meaning'assuredly', 'indeed'. Occurs in main clauses.

<152> pH=k imnt sAH Haw=k tA

that you reach the west, and when your body goes to earth (ie. when you areburied).

<153> xny=i r-sA wrd=kI will alight after you grow weary (die)

'alight' - appropriate word for the Ba which is represented as a bird.

<154> ix ir=n dmi n spThen we will make an abode together.

iw=f pw <155> HAt=f r pH=fy mi gmyt m sSIt is finished, from beginning to end, like what was found in writing.

m HtpJenny

From: "Timofey" <shady_member@zmail.ru>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaTo: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 01:27:35 +0400

Hello Jenny!

Many thanks for your help with Second tense. You are thebest.I know more about it now, so I can help us in translation.

You wrote (30.07.2004)

><141> mi Abb s mAA pr=sn ir.n=f rnpwt aSAwt iTt <142> m nDrt>Like a man wishes to see their home when he has spent many >years in prison.

>Abb - Imperfective in adverb clause; notion of repetition. >(Gardiner.444)>lit: he made many years passing

I take verb form 'Abb' as Second tense:

(141) mj Abb sj mAA pr=sn jr.n=f rnpwt aSAwt iTt (142) m nDrt

(Death for me today is) like *how much* a man desires tosee their home after he has spent many years inimprisonment.

Verb Abb explains why or how mush a man desires to seetheir home:

Why does he wish to see his home?

Because he has spent many years in imprisonment.

How mush does he wish to see their home?

As mush as a man, who has spent many years inimprisonment.

Abb is Second tense v. f.sj is subjectmAA is infinitive-object

jr.n=f rnpwt aSAwt iTt m nDrt is clause-COMMENT

>'their home' - ie. of his wife and children.

Yes, I think this explanation make sense.

Second tense works!

jj.n n=j sS 11 m Htp. dwA=j nTr n=k

Truly yoursTimofey

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From: "A.P.de Visser" <visser-25@zonnet.nl>To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his BaDate: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:38:14 +0200

Dear ListmembersI think we are indebted much gratitude to Jenny for having accomplished herexcellent translationwork with the useful notes.It is a beautyful text butrather complicated in several ways.

What will be the next one?I will think about it in my coming holiday-weeks.

Bram===================================================================== Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 22:47:04 +0000To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk>Subject: Re: AEL New text line 1From: ROSMORDUC Serge <rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr>

I'd like to remind a thing or two, especially for those who are stilllearning the basics of Middle Egyptian. The Merenptah stela is veryinteresting, but its language and orthography are mostly LateEgyptian, although the stela's beginning, as it contains lots offormulaic sentences, is still more or less readable with "MiddleEgyptian" eyes.

If you are learning Middle Egyptian, keep in mind that readingMerenptah's stela is a little as if you tried to read a modern italian text using a latin grammar.

EmbrdrKBH@aol.com writes:

> I realize tht I am VERY new to this group and to the language. But > I am really confused by several things. I had no idea I would have

> quite this much trouble! > 1 ~ How would I know if line one begins "rnpt-sp" or "HAt-sp?"

Frankly, the important thing is to translate the word by "year". Thetranslitteration itself, in this particular case, is probably also amatter of fashion.

> 2 ~ I am really having trouble knowing what has been 'shortened.' I am > seeing things in everyone's transliterations that I can't find on the text.

The royal titelature contains lots of abbreviated forms (for instance,"strong bull" is simply written with the bull and the D40sign. Reading them is a matter of habits, and of knowing what goes ina titelature.

In our case, a number of unusual writings are used, for instance thecartouche sign for "rn".

When there's a reading you don't understand, you can always ask.

Regards,

S. Rosmorduc