Page 1 of 29

JohnPlotz: HelloandwelcometoRecallThisBook.ThisisJohnPlotz,todayyoursolohosttravelingtheglobe,atleastasfarassouthernOhio,tobringyouaninterviewwiththefilmmaker,MikeLeigh,aseven-timeOscarnominee,winnerofvariousBAFTAAwards,bornManchesterin1943,andmakingremarkablefilmsforalmosthalfacenturynow.

Sowho'syourfavoriteMikeLeigh?Isittheslycomicgeniuswhocondensesordinarylifeintounforgettablevignettes?ThatwouldbesomethinglikeLifeIsSweetorHighHopesorNaked.Ordoyougoinsteadforthegrit,thesqualor,andawkwardnessofwhatitmeanstobestuckinclass-basedsocialmisery,ortotrytofakeyourwayoutofit?ThatwouldbefilmslikeAbigail'sParty,NutsinMay,Meantime,HardLabour.Orhowabouthismorerecent“periodfilms”?Hecallsthemthatincontrasttowhathecallsthe“chocolateboxstyle”ofhistoryfilmmaking.ThosewouldbefilmslikeTopsy-TurvyandMr.Turner,whichrevealthatevensuchlauded19thcenturytypesasGilbertandSullivanhadordinarylivesworthdepictingintheirbanality.

JohnPlotz: Ifyou'restilldrawingablank,googlehimandI'llbetyoufindafilmthatyouwanttowatchrightaway.I'llwait.Well,no,actually,Iwon'twait,butyoudohavesomethingtolookforwardtoafterthisinterview.SowhenheandIsatdowntotalk(ataVictorianistconventioninColumbus,Ohionoless)ourconversationrangedfrommethodactingtomoviesI'veneverseenbutshould've,toimprovisationandJohnCassavetestowhenyoucansay"fuck"onBritishTV(turnsouttobeafter9:00PM)--andthat'sonlythefirst20minutes.HealsotalkedaboutJamesThurberandeffortlesslyshotdownmyfeeblequestionaboutclose-ups.Hispoint,whichIthoughtwasactuallyverycompelling,wasthathe'smoreinterestedinmakingaworldfortheviewerthanheismakingaseriesofwell-composedshots.Sothewayheputitis,It'sneithersliceoflife,norisitjustashotconfection.Instead,it'ssomethinginbetween.Butourconversationbeganwithhismourningtheabsenceofordinarysoundofworking-classvoicesfromthe19thcentury.Whyonlyfamouspeople?

Page 2 of 29

MikeLeigh:Whatfascinatesmeaboutthisis,ofcourse,thattheynever--thisisreallyinteresting,whichcameupinresearchforvarioushistoricalthings--it'sthattheyrecordedfamouspeople,anditreallytookagesforanyonetospotthatitwouldbegoodtorecordordinarypeople.Sothearchive,therearealltheseveryearlyrecordingsoffamouspeoplesortofratherformallysayingthingsorreadingthingsorwhatever.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.Ilikethe[Robert]Browningbecauseheforgetsthewordsinthemiddle,soitbecomesinformal.

MikeLeigh:Yeah,thereyougo.Butactually,whenyoustartdiggingaroundforvoxpop.,it'sactually,andreally,eventheBBCuptillWorldWarIIwasstill,iftheymadedocumentariesontheradioaboutordinarypeople,they'dwritedownspeechesforthemtoreadout.

JohnPlotz: Ididn'tknowthat.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.Although,therearerecordingsintheNationalSoundArchive.WhenwewereresearchingMr.Turner,MarianBailey(whoplaysMrs.Booth)foundtheserecordings,(becausesheobviouslywastheonefromKent)foundtheserecordingsofveryoldguysrecordedinthe1920stalkingthisKentishdialect,whichshefoundveryuseful,whichwebuiltintosomeofhowshetalksandwhatshesays.

JohnPlotz: Whenyousaythat,IrememberthereusedtobetheseBBCaccentrecords.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.Butit'sfascinatingthatthoseveryearlylate19thcenturyrecordingsonlyrecordedfamouspeople.Itneveroccurredtoanyonetogointothestreetandpickupvoxpop.

JohnPlotz: DidyouseethatPeterJacksonmovieaboutWorldWarI?

MikeLeigh:Oh,yeah.

JohnPlotz: It'samazing,isn'tit,whathedoes?

MikeLeigh:Verygood.Reallygood.

Page 3 of 29

JohnPlotz: Yeah.Buthedoesn'thavethevoices.Hejusthasthelip-readers.

MikeLeigh:Ofcourse,ofcourse.Butlovelyjob,actually.

JohnPlotz: Yeah,butit'scrazytothinkaboutthatyouwouldhaveaccuratevisualcaptureofpeople,butyouwouldn'thavetheiractualvoices.

MikeLeigh:Itneveroccurredtoanyone.It'sextraordinary.Andtheamountoffootageofordinarypeopledoingordinarythingsonfilm…

JohnPlotz: Right.Peopleleavingafactory.Yes,theactualities.

MikeLeigh:Everything.WhenwesatdowntodoTopsy-Turvy,theBFIgaveustwohoursoffootageshotinandaroundLondonbetween1896and1901,andtherewastwohoursofit.It'samassiveamount.Thethingwasonlyinventedin1896,andwithinminutesitseemedpeoplehadcamerasallover.

JohnPlotz: Iwentandlookedatthatsamefootage.Iwaswritingabookaboutcrowdsinthe19thcentury.

MikeLeigh:Oh,thereyougo.

JohnPlotz: IlookedtotheBFI.Isawsomeofthat.It'samazing.

MikeLeigh:There'smassiveamountsofit.

JohnPlotz: Totally.

MikeLeigh:Theyfilmedeverything,anditneveroccurredtoanyonetorecord.It'sextraordinaryisn'tit,really?

JohnPlotz: Yeah.Actually,thatleadsintoonequestionIwantedtoaskyou,Mike,whichisabout,foryou,thedifferencesbetweenyourTVfilmsandyourfilms.WeretheTVfilms...Doesthatcategorymakesense,thingslikeNutsinMay?

MikeLeigh:What'sthequestion?

Page 4 of 29

JohnPlotz: Well,thequestionsis,formally,wasthatdifferent?Itwasn'ttapeversusfilmoranythinglikethat?

MikeLeigh:No.TheonlythingsIdidontapewerethosestudioproductions,Abigail'sPartyandThePermissiveSociety,whichwerefivecamerastudiojobs.Buteverythingelsewasonfilm,sotheywerefilms.Wedidn'tobviouslymakethemtothesamemotion-picturestandardsthatwewouldwitha35mmfeaturefilm,ofcourse.

JohnPlotz: Doesthatmeanyouwereusing16mm?

MikeLeigh:Oh,on16mm.Yeah.ButthenevenVeraDrakewasshotonSuper16,believeitornot,becauseofthequalitywecouldget.No,theywerefilms,andIregardthemasfilms.

JohnPlotz: Asfilms.

MikeLeigh:Nothingaboutthemfundamentallywasanydifferentfrommakingamovie,really.

JohnPlotz: AndwereyoucaughtupinanyTVconstraints?Like,inAmericaitgoeshourbyhour,butIguessinBritain,liketheTVslots…Theydidn'ttellyouithastobe92minutesexactlyoranythinglikethat?

MikeLeigh:No,theydid,buttheywerevery,veryfluidaboutitactually.SoImean,like,FourDaysinJuly,whichwasmyfilmaboutNorthernIreland,wassupposedtobe,Ithink,75minutes,anditwasactually96minutes.Theymadeafussforabouttwoseconds,butthefactwasunlikeITVwheretheyhadcommercialbreaksandallofthat,likehere,itdidn'treallymatter.Itwasactuallyflexibleandfluid,andtheonlyconstraintofasensorialnaturewasthatyoucouldn'tsay"fuck."

JohnPlotz: Mm-hmm.Butyoucouldshowabortions,forexample?Thatwasallright?

MikeLeigh:Inever...

JohnPlotz: Oh,Imean...Sorry.

Page 5 of 29

MikeLeigh:No,I'mtalkingaboutmytelevisionfilmsintheearlydays.

JohnPlotz: Yeah,butinHardLabour,Ijustmean,sorry,youdon'tshowanabortion,butthefact.

MikeLeigh:InHardLabourthereisn't--whatabortion?

JohnPlotz: Oh,whatamIthinking?

MikeLeigh:Well,theytalkaboutit.

JohnPlotz: Sorry,yeah.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.No,no.Butyoucouldn'tsay"fuck."ThefirstfilmImadewhereanybodysaid"fuck"wasMeanTime,whichwasmadeforChannel4.Wecalculated.Weknewwhattimeitwouldgoout,andthereforebywhatstageinthefilmafterthe9:00.Itwasthe9:00threshold.

JohnPlotz: 9:00hour,mm-hmm.

MikeLeigh:Butofcoursenowyoucansaywhateveryouwant,basically.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.IwasgoingtoaskyouaboutMeantime.It'ssuchanunbelievablecastinthere.WasthatTimRoth'sfirstfilm?

MikeLeigh:Second.

JohnPlotz: Second,wow.Didyoudohisfirstaswell,or?

MikeLeigh:No,no,no,no.HewasinafilmthatAlanClarkemadecalledMadeinBritainjustbeforethat.That'sreallyhowIfoundhim.AlanClarkesaid,"Thiskid'sgood."Yeah,no,therewereactorslikeGaryOldman.Thequestionisdidweknow,likeGaryOldman,Wedidn'tknowtheyweregoingtobecomemega-stars.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.ButIguessthemoregeneralquestionishowdoyouthinkyougot...There'ssomepeopleyouhaveworkedwithforfilmafterfilm,andthenothersjustacoupleoffilms.

MikeLeigh:Andsometimesone.

Page 6 of 29

JohnPlotz: Yeah.Wasthatalwaystheidea,ordidyou--?

MikeLeigh:No,it'snotanidea.It'snotaproject.That'snotapolicy.It'sjustthewayitstartstohappen.Youworkwithsomeoneandthey'rereallygoodandyouclick.Theyareversatile,andbecausethey'reallcharacteractorsthatIworkwith,soyougoforitagain.Insomecases,againandagainandagain.Butthere'snoconstructinit,andtherearepeoplethatI'veworkedwithandwanttoworkwithagain,andeverytimeI'mdoingsomething,they'renotavailableandsoonandsoforth.Thereisn'tafilmwhereyoudon'tseesomebodythatI'veneverworkedwithbeforebeingbrilliant,notleastyoungactors.There'snopolicyinitatall,actually.Peopletalkabouttheensemble.It'sallrubbish,basically.Peoplecomeandgo.

JohnPlotz: BecauseIknowayoungfilmmakerfromArgentinawho,Ithinkinspiredpartlybyyou,hasjustanensemblethatheworkswith.

MikeLeigh:Well,Iunderstandthat.Afamilyform.There'sakindof--

JohnPlotz: Yeah.That'swhatitfeelslikewithhisfilms.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.Thereisasortof,there'sobviously...Itisn'tformetotalkabout,butthereisasortof,Isuppose,aninnersanctumofpeoplewhohaveworkedwithMikeLeigh,becausewedostuffthatdoesn'thappenonanyotherkindoffilm.They'reveryinthenatureofthething:It'ssustainedandlong,peoplereallyhavetodoitasthey'remessingaboutwithit.ButnotonlydoIresistthenotionofanensemble,butactuallyIresistitonlybecauseitsimplyisn'taccurate.Ifsomeforceorauthoritysaid,"Okay,herearethese10actors,andyoucanonlyevermakefilmswiththese10actors,"Iwouldregarditasremarkablyconstrainingactually.Ithasnoinherentvirtueatall.Icanunderstandtheatercompaniesofcertainkinds,forwhomthathasakindofalogic,butinthenatureofwhatIdo,itjustdoesn'tmakeanysensebecauseitdependswhatyouwanttomakeafilmabout,really.

JohnPlotz: Well,hasiteverbeenthecasethatsomethinghappenedduringonefilmthatthentriggeredontothenextfilmandyou'relike,"Oh,right.Wecan'texplorethisinthisfilm,butthen-"

Page 7 of 29

MikeLeigh:No.Intermsofthecontentandtheideas,no.Andinfact,youcanseebylookingatthefilmsthat,whilstthey'realltarredwiththesamebrush,theyallareprettydifferentfromeachotherinallsortsofways.No,thatsimplydoesn'toccurbecause,again,that'sthesamethingreally.

JohnPlotz: That'sthefamily.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.Eachfilmisanewproposition,really.Allsortsofconsiderationsarisewhenyouhavethefreedomtohaveablankcanvasafresheachtime,becausethenyoucansortof...Yousee,intheend--Ithinkthisisoneoftheunderlyingpointsofwhatwe'retalkingabout--isI'mnotconcernedinthefirstanalysiswiththenatureoftheensemble,I'mconcernedwiththesubjectmatter.I'mconcernedwiththeworldoutthere,sowhenIlookinthatdirection,there'sthatfilm.WhenIlookinthisdirection,there'sanotherfilm.Tobeconstrainedbyeithertryingtorelatethatfilmwiththisoneortryingtokeepthesameactorsorwhatever,thosewouldbedistractionsandaredherringreally.

JohnPlotz: Sointermsoftheworld-

MikeLeigh:Justoneotherthingabouttheactorsthing,apartfromanythingelse,weareblessedintheUKwithanincredibleresourceofactors.Therearetoomanyactorstogetroundto.That'sthetruthofit.There'sseveralhundredmoreeachyearfromthedramaschool,sotheideaofsortofconfiningittojustafewactorsinanexclusivewaywouldbeeccentric.

JohnPlotz: DidyouintendtobeanactorwhenyoustartedatRADA?

MikeLeigh:No.

JohnPlotz: No.

MikeLeigh:Iwantedtoknowaboutstuff.

JohnPlotz: Isee.Soevenat17or18,youknewitwasn'tforyou?

Page 8 of 29

MikeLeigh:Well,yesinsofarasonecanreportthat“at17or18Iknewexactly.”MyjourneytoRADAattheageof17withamazinglyascholarshipactually,wasasmuchasanythingtoescapehomeandescapeManchesterandgettoLondonanddoallthat,andtoescapethepressurethatwasputontobeacademic.Itwastheonethingyoucoulddowhereyoudidn'tneedacademicqualifications.Youjusthadtopasstheaudition,andI'dbeeninplays,I'dputonshows,I'dwrittenstuff.I'dedited,bythattime,twodifferentmagazines.Idrewcartoons.Ididallofthat.

JohnPlotz: Wereyouawareoftheangryyoungmenandallthatstuff?

MikeLeigh:Well,yes.Yes.IrememberdrawingacaricatureofanAngryYoungMantoadvertisetheschool,literallyadebatingsociety,butIwas13whenLookBackinAnger,soyoukindofknewitwashappening,butyouweren'tonitcompletely.

JohnPlotz: WasitallLondon,ordidithaveanorthernlifeaswell?

MikeLeigh:Itdid,butagain,thingsfilteredthrough.Youreadthepaperorwhatever…Butanyhow,themainthingwas...ButIknewitwasallaboutmakingthingsupandwritingaboutit.IsupposeifIthinkaboutit,Idon'tknowthatIruledoutbeinganactor.ButwithinminutesofbeingatRADA,Iknewthatitwasaboutdirecting,notleastbecauseRADAwasrubbishatthattime.Itwas.Itwasold-fashioned,stale.Youdidplays,youdidn'tdiscusstheplays,youlearntthelines,youlearntthemoves.Youdidn'tfalloverthefurniture.Youneverdiscussedwhatisthis?Therewasnodiscussionaboutbackstory.Therewerenoimprovisationandallofthat,andittookminutestostarttoreactagainstthat.Itwasimmenselyusefulforthatpointofview.Also,IhittowninSeptember,1960.Well,thezeitgeistwasabouttoerupt.ShadowswasplayingasIarrived.TheNouvelleVaguewasonthego.PeterBrookwasstartingtodohisthing.

JohnPlotz: Oh,PeterBrook.Right.

MikeLeigh:Yeah,andthentherewere,ofcourse,beforetoolong,therewerehappeningsandalltherestofthatstuffgoingon,anditwasallhappeninginart.IrememberarrivinginLondonandwithina

Page 9 of 29

week,inthefirstweek,goingtothegreatPicassoexhibitionatTheTate,whichwasamind-blower.Here'stheotherthing,whichisreallyimportant.UptothatpointintimeinManchester,andIwenttothemoviesallthetimeasmuchaspossiblefromtheearliestage,andIsaw-

JohnPlotz: AndthatbeingmostlyHollywood?

MikeLeigh:AllHollywoodorBritishmovies.Ineversawafilmthatwasn'tinEnglish,andwithinaweekofbeinginLondon,somebodysaid,"Oh,they'reshowingafilmatthisartsfestival."Itwasanextraordinaryfilmaboutthisknightplayingchesswith...

JohnPlotz: Oh,soyousawTheSeventhSeal..?

MikeLeigh:Yeah.

JohnPlotz: Wasthereavoiceoverorsomething,orhowdidtheydoit?Orsubtitles?

MikeLeigh:Subtitles.Yeah,butthepointwaswe'reinLondon.Ofcourse,Idiscoveredworldcinema,thewholething.Theissueofdirectingandmakingstuffwastheretobe…wasobvious.BythetimeIleftthething,I'dputonaproductionofTheCaretakerbyPinter,whichIalsodesigned.That'swhatitwasabout,andthenIwentonandIactedabit.Iveryusefullyfoundmyselfinamovie,afeaturefilm.

JohnPlotz: IsawthatonyourWikipediapage.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.TwoLeftFeet,andwhatwasgreat,Ihadaveryminorrole,butIusedtogoeveryday.Theyusedtosay,"Wehaven'tcalledyou.You'renotinthis."Isaid,"I'mjustheretowatch,"anditwasfantastic.Itwasanold-fashionedstudiomoviedirectedbyRoyWardBaker,whofamouslydirectedTitanic,anditwassimply...Well,thenIwenttoCamberwellArtSchoolonthefoundationcourseforayear,IdidayearinthetheaterdesignschooloftheCentralSchoolofArt,andIwenttotheLondonFilmSchoolatnighttime.SoIdidallthat,thenIstartedtomakeplays.

Page 10 of 29

JohnPlotz: Wastheresnobberyinthetheaterworld,like“wewouldn'ttouchfilmwithaten-footpole”kindofthing?Orwerepeoplealwayslookingtogetintofilm?Wasthereafluidboundarybetweentheaterandfilmorastickthere?

MikeLeigh:Yeah,Iwouldsayso.Ofcourse,youhavetoreflectonwhatwemade.No,therewas,becauseinfact,we'retalkingabouttheearly‘60s,thereforewe'retalkingabouttheperiodoftheBritishNewWave.LindsayAnderson,CarolRice,TonyRichardson,JohnSchlesinger,etc.Thoseguys,firstofall,allofthosefilms--andthisisincidentallywhyIneverfeltcompletelypersonallyatonewithwhattheywere…Whatwasgreatistheywerelookingatworking-classlife.However,thecasewasthatallofthosefilms,withoutexception,wereadaptationsofeitherplaysfromtheRoyalCourtTheatreornovels.Therewereno,whereas...Sowhilstlookingatthoseanddigestingthose,onewasalsolookingat,forexample,Àboutdesouffle,whichofcourseis,asitwere,paintedonthecanvas.It'sraw.It'sfilm,soalottothinkabout.

MikeLeigh:Butastothefluiditybetweentheaterandfilm,no.TheRoyalCourtTheatreandWoodfallFilms,whomadeallthosefilms,werethesameguys,really.Sotherewas--Idon'tthinktherewasasnobberyparticularly.Theremighthavebeenwithsomeveryoldfashionedpeoplewhowouldhavetaughtusattheacademy,buteventheoldestofthem,movieshadbeenaroundaslongastheyhad.WeweretaughtinthefirsttermbyawomancalledNellCarter.Shewasalittleoldbirdwho-

JohnPlotz: ThisisRADAnow?

MikeLeigh:RADA.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.

MikeLeigh:WhohadplayedJulietinHenryIrving'slastseasonatTheLyceumin1899.

JohnPlotz: Oh,god.Wow.Yeah,talkaboutVictorianconnections.Yeah,that'samazing.Wow.

Page 11 of 29

MikeLeigh:Andofcourse,shewasnoradicaldirector.Itwasvery,verysquare.Butmovieswouldn'thavebeenanoveltytoher.Theywerehappeningwhenshewaslittle.

JohnPlotz: Right.Yeah.SocanIaskabouttheBritishNewWave?I'vereadabouttheCassavetesconnectionforyou,butIwaswondering,like,yeah.

MikeLeigh:Well,justinpassing,justaroundthat….Imean,thefactofShadowsparticularly,atthemomentonediscoveredit,thefactwasithadbeen“improvised.”Thatwasaradicalandremarkablething.Inpassingthough,it'snotinthedriftofwhatweobviouslywanttotalkabout,butinpassing,whilstthingslikeTheMurderofaChineseBookie,forexample(Isthatwhatit'scalled?)

JohnPlotz: Yeah,Ican't-

MikeLeigh:Youdon'tknowit.I'vegotalotofrespectforCassavetes,butontheotherhandnotalways,becausequitealotofthetimewhatyouarelookingatareactorsplayingthemselvesandimprovisingoncameraandlettingtheirownshithangout,asopposedtoreallydepictingtheworld.Althoughit'sgotitsownkindofdynamicquality,Isortofpartcompanywithit,consideringwhatyousaid,becausewhatI'mconcernedwithisnotrawactingrevealingitsinnards,improvisinginfrontofthecamera.It'saboutdistillingtheworldandmakingitfeelveryprecise,whichisn'taboutactors.It'sabouttheworld.

JohnPlotz: CanIask,Isortofhadaninchoatequestionaboutit.ItseemslikelookingatyoureducationthattherewasaperiodofMethodactingtraining,right?WasittheEast15School?

MikeLeigh:No.

JohnPlotz: No?

MikeLeigh:No,Ididn'ttrain.Itaughtthere.

JohnPlotz: Oh,youtaughtthere.

Page 12 of 29

MikeLeigh:SomepeoplehavewrittenthatI'vetrainedthere.That'srubbish.Itaughtthere.

JohnPlotz: I'mgladyousaidthat.Well,I'llcorrectWikipediathen.Yeah.

MikeLeigh:There'ssuchalotofrubbishinWikipedia.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.

MikeLeigh:Idon'tknowwhoputsitinthere.BythetimeIwent,thatschoolcameoutofJoanLittlewood'sstaff,andIwentandtaughtthereandmadeaplaythere,Ithink,aswell.Bythattimeitwas1968.I'dalreadybeenanassistantdirectoratthe…No,no.

JohnPlotz: SoMethodandyouhavenothingincommon,really?Youdon'thavea-

MikeLeigh:No,ofcourseonethoughtaboutitandknowsaboutit,butifyouwanttotalkaboutthat,it'sverystraightforward.Theideaoftheactorfindingthecharacterwithinhimselforherself..

JohnPlotz: Yeah,Marlon-Brandostyle.

MikeLeigh:Well,that'swhattheyalldo,andthensortoflivingandbecomingthecharacterandallthat.It'sasfardowntheotherendofthespectrumfromwhatIdowithactorsasyoucanget,becausewhatI'mconcernedinisthattheyarepeopleverymuchabletoplayallsortsofdifferentpeople,andwhentheyplaysomebody,theytotallyareabletogointocharacter,beincharacter,buttheyareable,withadiscipline,tocomeoutofcharactersotheycanbeobjectiveaboutitandthenworkwiththematerial.Also,it'sbadforyoutosortof,particularlyifit'sacharacterwho'straumatized,tobecomethecharacter.It'srubbishbasically.Thatmakesnosense.Sointhatsense,Iabsolutely,whilstIrespecttheintegrityandtheintentionsandthespiritoftheActorStudio,Icompletely,onapracticalandphilosophicallevel,partcompanyfromit.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.Thisfeelsrelatedtome.Youmightnotthinkit'srelated,butcanIaskyou,oneofthethingsthatIloveaboutallyourfilmsbutespeciallythoseearlyonesisthepowerofclose-ups,thewayyou

Page 13 of 29

useclose-upstojustkindofsitwithsomeone'sfacewhilethey'reexperiencingsomething.Doyouthinkofthatas..?

MikeLeigh:No.Again,there'snokindofaestheticordramaticorcinematicagendaaboutit.Whenitneedstobeinaclose-up,it'saclose-up.Ifitneedstobealongshot,it'salongshot.Ifitneedstotrack,ittracks.Ifitdoesn't,there'snoreasonforthecameratomove.Itstaysstill.That'sallthereistobesaidaboutit.Ihavenophilosophyoftheclose-up.Idon'tthink,withrespect,Idon'tthinkit'sespeciallyaccurateortruetotalkabouttheearlierfilmsinrelationtotheclose-ups,whichimpliesthatwedon'thaveclose-upsinthelaterfilms.

JohnPlotz: No,no,I….

MikeLeigh:IfyouthinkabouttheopeningshotofAnotherYear,forexample,onImeldaStaunton,that'samassiveclose-upwithoutanythingprecedingit,andyou'rethrownintothiswoman'scrisis,andyou'remisledintothinkingthisisafilmaboutthiswoman,andyouhardlyseeheragain.

JohnPlotz: Yes.

MikeLeigh:No,no.Ihaveno...It'sthelanguageoffilm,andit'sthere.It'slike,inasimilarway,RussianArknotwithstanding,whichhasgotitsownlogic,apparently,itwouldseemthatSamMendes,producedbyStevenSpielberg,whichhe'sjustfinished,called1917abouttheFirstWorldWar,andit'sallinoneshot.

JohnPlotz: Jesus.

MikeLeigh:Now,youthink,"Oh,wow.Howcinematic."Now,I'vebeen-

JohnPlotz: HaveyouseenRussianArk?I'veneverseenit.

MikeLeigh:Oh,yeah.You'veneverseenit?

JohnPlotz: No.Isitworth-

Page 14 of 29

MikeLeigh:Well,whenyoudoseeit,it'sworthgettingholdofitandthedocumentaryaboutmakingit.It'sessentialviewing.It'smad,butit's..

JohnPlotz: It'sjustsomad,yeah.

MikeLeigh:No,no,butanyway,here'sthething.Thisisrelatedtothisquestionofafetishaboutclose-ups.

JohnPlotz: Andthat'syourword,notmine.

MikeLeigh:Itis.No,itis.No,butIrefertoitassomethingthatyoumayhavebeeninadvertentlyaccusingmeof.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.

MikeLeigh:Ifyousay--andI'vefallenintothistraponafewoccasions--ifyousay,"Iknowwhatwouldbegreat.Ifwemakeallthisworkinasingletrackingshot."Youthink,"Ah,that'sgreat."Thattakesyouthere,sohemovesthere,and,"Oh,it'sgreat.Wecanmakethatinit."There'saline,adanger-linethatyoucrosswhereyousuddenlyknowthatwhatyou'renowdoingistojustifytheshot.

JohnPlotz: Theshot,right.Isee.You'relettingtheshotdrive.Isee.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.Innotime,yourealizethatwhatyou'reputtingtogetherisbullshitbasically,becauseactuallyifyousimplycreatetheactionandthendecidehowtoshootit,that'swhatit'sallabout.Italkaboutthatinthesamebreathastheideathatthereisathingaboutclose-ups.

JohnPlotz: Ihearwhatyou'resaying.

MikeLeigh:Youcouldargue“wouldn'titbegreattomakeafilmwhereeverythingisinalongshot?”Whatdoesthatmean?Somethingsareinlongshotandsomethingsyouneedtogetinthereandshow.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.No,Ihearyou.Thatmakessense.Hey,canIsay,myfriendthatyouhaddinnerwithlastnight,Ivan,toldmethatyouweregoingtogovisittheThurberHouse.

Page 15 of 29

MikeLeigh:Yeah.

JohnPlotz: AreyouaThurberfan?

MikeLeigh:Havebeenallmylife.

JohnPlotz: Metoo.Yeah.

MikeLeigh:Allmylife.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.Drawingsandstories?

MikeLeigh:Oh,yeah.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.Okay.

MikeLeigh:Oh,yeah.WhenIwastoldthatthere'sapparentlyastatueofaunicornoutsideinthegarden,well,that'sgreat.Ilovethatcartoonthattheymadeinthe1950softheunicorninthegarden.

JohnPlotz: Idon'tthinkI'veseenit.No.

MikeLeigh:Oh,it'sonline.You'llfindit.Findit.

JohnPlotz: Iwill,yeah.

MikeLeigh:They'veanimatedit.It'safamousanimation,butthatsimplywasdoneinthestyleofhisdrawings.It'sfantastic.

JohnPlotz: Oh,that'sfantastic.BecauseIthinkthemovieofSecretLifeofWalterMittyisgood,butitdoesn'tfeellikeThurberatall.

MikeLeigh:No,no.It'snot.Whywoulditbe?Whyshoulditbeandhowcoulditbe?Thurberexistsonthepage.

JohnPlotz: Onthepage,yeah.

MikeLeigh:Ofcourse.ButeverythingincludingThe13ClocksandTheWonderfulWorldandallthatstuff.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.Thosearechildhoodmemoriesforme.

Page 16 of 29

MikeLeigh:Yeah.Infact,mycousin,longsincedead,sadly,adaptedThe13ClocksfortheBBCradiowaybackwhenhewasquiteyoungandtheydidit.Butyeah,andthecartoons.Thegreatachievementofamanwhowashalfblindandcouldn'tdraw.There'sthesefantasticdrawings.

JohnPlotz: Absolutely.That'skindofwhatIwantedtoaskyou,actually.Imean,thewritingisunbelievableandtherelationshiptoMarkTwainisfascinating.Yeah,butthedrawing,thewaythedrawingcomesfrom,yeah,morethanhalf-blind,Ithink.

MikeLeigh:Iknow.

JohnPlotz: Andgettingblinderashedrew.

MikeLeigh:Yeah,butit'stheactual…it'shisworldthatreallyoneresonateswith.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.Right…

MikeLeigh:"WhathaveyoudonewithDr.Millmoss?"

JohnPlotz: Exactly.ThatwouldbethefirstMrs.Whateversittinguponthe…

MikeLeigh:Oh,yeah.Ilovethat."Whatdoyoumean,youheardasealbark?"

JohnPlotz: Yeah.Buttheyworkwell.Mydadusedtoreadthemoutloudtomeasakid.

MikeLeigh:Really?

JohnPlotz: Thework.Theydon'tjustworkonthepage.Theyworkasavoiceaswell.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.No,good.Ilookforwardtothat.

JohnPlotz: SoanotherquestionIhadforyouwaskindofotherartformsyouthinkabout.Youdodrawingyourself,right,andhavealwaysdone?

Page 17 of 29

MikeLeigh:Well,I'mverylazyaboutit.IguesswhenIwenttoartschool,Icandraw.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.

MikeLeigh:Iactually,inaparalleluniverse,Iprobablywouldhavebeenacartoonist,actually.ButthatshouldneverbemisreportedasbeingIwasacartoonist.Idrew.

JohnPlotz: Right.

MikeLeigh:No,I'mvery...Andmysonisaverysuccessfulillustrator.

JohnPlotz: Oh,wow.

MikeLeigh:Oneofmysons.Theotheroneisafilmmaker.TobyLeighistheillustrator.I'mintoallsortsofstuff.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.

MikeLeigh:IsawadocumentaryintheLondonFilmFestivalliterallyaweekago,MilesDavis,TheBirthoftheBlues,whichIheartilyrecommend.Terrificstuff.Theytalktoeverybody,includingallhisvariouswomen.

JohnPlotz: Oh,that'ssoundsgreat.

MikeLeigh:There'slotsofrecordingsessionsandallofthat.Istillloveallthatstuff.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.Sodoesthedrawingeverfigureintothefilm?Doyoueverdrawforsetdesignoranythinglikethat?

MikeLeigh:No.

JohnPlotz: No.

MikeLeigh:No,Iworkwith-Actually,interestingthatyousaythat,becauseintheearlyperiodwhenIwasdevelopingtheso-calledmisnamedimprovisedplay...

Page 18 of 29

JohnPlotz: Yes.Whatnamedoyoupreferthen?

MikeLeigh:Well,Ionlysaythatbecausesometimesitwasdevised,buttherealpointis...Well,thisisanothermatter.

JohnPlotz: Okay,yeah.

MikeLeigh:Foryears,Iusedtoput,asyouknow,you'veprobablyseen,"devisedanddirected."Ichangeditto"writtenand…"becausethatisreallywhatIdo.I'mawriter,andIchangeditbecauseit'smoreaccurate,butalsotoavoidconfusionsopeopledon'tactuallythinkit'sjustacommitteejob,whichitisn't.However,forthefirstsortofnumberofyearswhenIputonplaysonthesortoffringetheaterbeforeIcouldgettomakingmoviesandbeforeIgotbetterscopeandbetterprojectstodoanditwasdoneverycheaply.Ialsodesignedmyownshows,thenIstartedtoworkwithdesigners.Iworkwiththedesignersandtheydoallthat.Idon'tdothat.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.SoIwassortofwondering,intermsofthere'sallthesefilmsthathaveinspiredyou.Arethereothersortsofartworkthatinspireyou?

MikeLeigh:That'swhatyou'reaskingme,yeah.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.

JohnPlotz: You'veneverdoneanadaptation.That'snotyourmétier.

MikeLeigh:No.I'mnotinterested.

JohnPlotz: You'renotinterested.

MikeLeigh:There'snopoint.

JohnPlotz: Ireallytakethatpointaboutthatbeingoneofthewaysyou'repushingyourselfofffromtheNewWave.

Page 19 of 29

MikeLeigh:No.Otherpeoplecandothat.Ihavetosaythatthenumberofadaptationsinexistencethatarereally,reallyanygoodisverysmall,Ithink.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.Thebestonesaren'treallyadaptations.They'reversionsorsomething.

MikeLeigh:Well,maybe.IsupposeifIwasreallygoingtobeafascist,Iwouldbanalladaptations.

JohnPlotz: Really?Butthenyou'dkillTarkovsky.He'dhavenothing.

MikeLeigh:Well,thereyougo.Well,youcan'twinthemall.TarkovskywasverynicewhenwewerestrugglingtogetBleakMoments,myfirstfilm,showninMoscow.Tarkovskywasvery,veryhelpfulandconstructive--justinpassing.

JohnPlotz: Nokidding?Wow.

MikeLeigh:No,Imean,aboutninemonthsagoIwasinaconversation,andPhilipRothcameup.

JohnPlotz: Oh,yeah.

MikeLeigh:Isaid,"Yeah,yeah,yeah,yeah.PhilipRoth.IreadPortnoy'sComplaint."ThenIthought,"I'veonlyreadeverreadPortnoy'sComplaint,"sointhelastnumberofmonths,I'vegotprettynearlyonlyreadandgettingwellthroughallofPhilipRoth.

JohnPlotz: Wow.That'sawesome.

MikeLeigh:It'sjustterrific.

JohnPlotz: IjustinterviewedZadieSmithaboutamonthago,andshetalkedaboutPhilipRothforabout15minutes.

MikeLeigh:Thereyougo.

JohnPlotz: She'sjustobsessedwithhim.

MikeLeigh:Andshe'sgood.Ilikeher.

Page 20 of 29

JohnPlotz: Sheisgood.

MikeLeigh:Ilikeherstuff.Yeah.

JohnPlotz: SoI'maskingaboutadaptation.It'smorelikethingsthat,artworksthathavereallyspokentoyou.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.Ikeephavingtroublewiththisquestion.Yousortofgoblankanddon'tknowwheretostart,really.

JohnPlotz: No,butPhilipRothisagreatonetothinkabout.

MikeLeigh:No,butIgetafantasticbuzzoffHopper,forexample,butyoucanunderstandthat.You'refamiliarwiththistown,areyou?

JohnPlotz: Yeah.

MikeLeigh:SoIwentandspentacoupleofhoursinthecartoon...

JohnPlotz: TheBillyIrelandCartoonMuseum?That'sfantastic.

MikeLeigh:Iwasjust-

JohnPlotz: Iwasgoingtoaskyouaboutthat,actually.

MikeLeigh:Oh,yeah.

JohnPlotz: That'sgreat.

MikeLeigh:Whatablowofaplace.It'sfantastic.

JohnPlotz: Itisfantastic,andalsothewayittakescartoonsbacktotheearly19thcenturytoo,thoseGermanbooks.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.WhenwewereworkingonPeterloo,itwasjustaghasttogobacktoterritoryIalreadywasinto,whichislikeGillrayandRowlandson'searly,thatstuff.Idon'tknowwheretostart.Alotofart.Obviously,Turnerplayedanimportantpartinit.

Page 21 of 29

JohnPlotz: Isthatalong-standingthingforyou?HaveyoualwayslovedTurnerpaintingsbeforeyouthought,"Icoulddoafilmabouthim."

MikeLeigh:Oh,yeah.Foralongtime.InevernoticedorwasawareofTurnerasakidgrowingup.OnmywallasateenagerwerepostcardsofPicassoandToulouseLautrec.Atthatearlystage,youthought,"Oh,Surrealismisgreat."ItookSalvadorDalimoreseriouslythanIwouldtakehimnow.

JohnPlotz: Theclocks,yeah.WhenIwasincollege,everyonehadtheclocks.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.Ithinkprobably,insofarasIhavenorecollectionofTurnerregistering,butIthinkitwouldn'thavedone,becauseIwouldn'thavebeenperceptiveenoughtodistinguishTurnerfromboringlandscapepaintingsotospeak.ThenIwasatartschool,andIsharedaplacewithafewguys.Oneguy,who'sremainedaclosefriend,hadabigreproductionof“TheFightingTemeraire”onthewall,andthenwestartedtogointoTheTateandlookatTurner,andyousuddenlystartedtotweakitandsortofthink,"Thisisn'tjustanyoldlandscapepainting.Thisissomethingelse."

JohnPlotz: Well,you'reluckytohaveTheTatetohavethathappentoyou,bothforBlakeandTurner.

MikeLeigh:Yeah,absolutely.

JohnPlotz: Idon'tknowwhereelsethatcouldhappen.

MikeLeigh:No,no,no,ofcourse.Butthepointis,whetheryou'retalkingaboutGeorgeGroszandOttoDixoryou'retalkingaboutBrechtandWeill,itdoesn'tmatter.There'ssomuchstuff.Thereiscinema.Ofcourse,Olmididn'tmakeTheTreeofWoodenClogsuntil1978,bywhichtimeIwaswellupandrunning,butthatfilmisamassiveblowawayasfarasI'mconcerned.

JohnPlotz: I'veneverseenit.Okay.

MikeLeigh:Idon'tbelievethat.

Page 22 of 29

JohnPlotz: I'manidiot.WhatcanIsay?

MikeLeigh:Well,Idon'tthinkyou'reanidiot,certainly.Youcertainlyaremissingatrickortwo.

JohnPlotz: Yeah,that'sfantastic.

MikeLeigh:It'sanamazingthing.Ican'tsayOlmiisaninfluenceinanystrictsense.It'shardtotalkaboutinfluencesassuch.IwasdefinitelyinfluencedbyBeckettandPinter,butasIsay...

JohnPlotz: CanIjustsayBeckettisfascinatinginthatsentence,becauseIthinkofBeckettasleavingeverythingout,whereaseverythingyou'redescribingaboutyourethosistotrytogetin.

MikeLeigh:Well,itis,butthenofcoursethejobistodistillit.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.

MikeLeigh:Youwouldn'thavetobendoverbackwardstoseeBeckett'sinfluencesomewherealongtheline.IfyoulookatBleakMoments,whichI'msureyou'veseen,itisprettydistilled.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.It'snotsliceoflife.It'snotjustletthecamerarun.

MikeLeigh:No,it'snot,andsliceoflifeisnotwhatIdo,butalsoBleakMomentsinparticular,therearelongersilencesinBleakMomentsthananyproductionofEndgame.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.

MikeLeigh:ButIdon'tknow.It'shard.There'ssomanythings.Apartfromanythingelse,Ispendahugeamountoftimelisteningtoclassicalmusic.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.ButcanwecirclebacktoPhilipRoth,becausethat'sreallyinterestingtome.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.YouunderstandthatI'veonlyspentthelastninemonthsreading.

Page 23 of 29

JohnPlotz: Ninemonths,Iknow.I'mnotsayingit'saninfluence,I'mjustinterestinginwhatresonateswithyou,howmuchwhathisnovelsdo.He'sanensemblewriterinaway,becausehissamecharacterskeepcomingback.

MikeLeigh:Yes.That'shisthing.Thatiswhat'sinteresting.

JohnPlotz: Thatiswhat'sinteresting.GhostcomesandthenExitGhostandZuckerman.

MikeLeigh:Yeah,andalsotodothethingwhichhedoes,whichisawholedifferentballgame,whichistodramatizehimselfanddishhimselfupindifferentguises,butit'sstillhim.Onthewhole,I'mnotinterestedinfilmsaboutfilms.TheonlyexceptioninmyworkisTopsy-Turvy,whichisafilmabouttheater,soIreadRothandyouthink,"Yeah,butthisisawriterwritingaboutwriting."Butthat'shisprerogative,andtherealpointiswhatdoeshedo?What'sitabout?It'sabouthumanity.Also,IcomefromaJewishbackground,sotherearethingsthatareintherethatjustsortofresonatewiththeworldIgrewupin.

JohnPlotz: Isawyou'vedoneaplaythatsortofspeakstoJewishthemes.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.TwoThousandYears.

JohnPlotz: TwoThousandYears,yeah.

MikeLeigh:Idid,in2005attheRoyalNationalTheatre.ButRoth,thatworldsometimes,quiteofteninfact,resonatesatcertainlevels.Irecognizesomeofthecharacters.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.No,buttheconnectionIwastryingtomakewasthatyouweresaying,eventhoughTopsy-Turvyis,inasense,Ithinkyoucouldcallitaperiodpiece,butitcomesoutofalifethatyouthinkyouknow.

MikeLeigh:Yeah,totally.

JohnPlotz: Notjustinahistoricalway.

Page 24 of 29

MikeLeigh:No,no,andasIsaidlastnight,wewereturningthecameraaroundonwhatwedo,wewhomakeplaysandfilmsandtakeveryseriouslythejobofentertainingotherpeopleinourtrivia.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.Yousaidprofoundtrivia,whichIliked.

MikeLeigh:No,Ialwayssaythat.

JohnPlotz: Whatdoesthatmeantoyouwhenyousayprofound?

MikeLeigh:Well,it'sjustcheeky.Well,there'striviaandthere'sprofoundtrivia.Youcanworkthatoutforyourself.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.CanIaskwhatyournewprojectsarenow?

MikeLeigh:No.

JohnPlotz: Okay,fairenough.

MikeLeigh:Nottheleastbecausemostofmyfilmsandallofmyplays.Mostofthem,whichmeansallofthemexceptTopsy-Turvy,Mr.Turner,andPeterloo,haveallbeenprojectswherewe'vesaidnothingtoanybody,includingthebackers.Wesaid,"Giveusthemoneyandwe'llgooffanddevelopafilm,"andthefilmcomesoutofthat.They'veallbeenmadelikethat,andtheoneI'mgoingtodonext,whateveritis,willbenoexception.Therefore,I'mnotsayinganythingtoanybody,butthereasonI,inanycase,can'tpreciselysay,wouldn'tbeabletoevenifIwantedto.Therearemillionsofideasgoingaroundinmyheadatanygivenmoment,butit'sbecauseIdon'tknowhowmuchmoneyI'mgoingtohave.UntilIknowthat,Iwillonlyknowthesizeandscaleofthecanvas.ThenIwillbeabletodecidewhichdirectiontogoin,butthere'slotsofpossibilities.There'snoshortageofthingstodealwithintheworldatthemoment.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.SodoesthatmeanyouwanttotalkaboutBrexit,ordoyounotwanttotalkaboutBrexit?

MikeLeigh:I'lltalkaboutBrexit.Atthismoment.

JohnPlotz: Iknow.Rightnow.

Page 25 of 29

MikeLeigh:Evenaswespeak.

JohnPlotz: Aswespeak.

MikeLeigh:No,mypartner,Marion,andherdaughterjustsentmeapictureofthemselvesattherally.

JohnPlotz: Oh,attherally.

MikeLeigh:WhichisgoingonallaroundParliamentwhileit'sgoing.Bynow,it'sprobablyoverIshouldthink.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.Iherethere'ssomeToriesspeakingattherally.

MikeLeigh:Oh,yeah.Oh,therewillbe.Yeah,ofcourse.No,well,whatistheretosayabout...?Itisa100%gilt-edgedtotaldisaster.Itshouldneverhavehappened.It'sacompletefolly.It'sacompletewasteoftime.It'sthemostdestructive,dangerousdisease,whichwilllastfordecades.

JohnPlotz: Youmeanwhatevertheresultofthis,itwilllastfordecades?

MikeLeigh:Well,ifitwascanceledandif...

JohnPlotz: Secondreferendumorwhatever.

MikeLeigh:Ordinaryrelationswererestored,youmightbedisposedtosay,"Well,theneverythingwillbebacktonormal,"butofcourseitwon'tbecausethey'llriotsfromthepeoplethatstillignorantlywanttoleave.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.

MikeLeigh:Butalsoamassiveamountoftime,energyandmoneyhasbeenexpendedandwastedonthehalfpossibility.It'scompletelyridiculousandirresponsibleateverylevel.

JohnPlotz: Doyoutakeitasridiculousandjustamadfollythatsomehowhappened,ordoyoutakeitassymptomaticofadirectionthatBritainormaybeBritainandAmericaareheadingnow?

Page 26 of 29

MikeLeigh:Well,it'sadirectioninwhichtheworldisheading.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.That'swhatIfear.

MikeLeigh:Well,it'safact.There'snoquestionaboutit.Theriseofthefarright.

JohnPlotz: Theethnopopulistorethnonationalist.

MikeLeigh:Everywhere.Weareinto-

JohnPlotz: 1930sterritory.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.Actually,it'sworsebecausewe'reinthisageofmasscommunication,towhichthe30sborenoresemblancewhatever.That'sgotagreatdealtodowithit,thedisseminationof-

JohnPlotz: Right.YeahtheyhadPathe,wehaveTwitter.

MikeLeigh:Yeah,andbeyondTwitter.Welcometothe21stcentury.Now,afternearlytwodecades,wefindourselvesinwhatwenowrecognizeisactuallythe21stcentury.

JohnPlotz: Yeah,right.

MikeLeigh:Yeah,noIfarfromwantingtotalkaboutBrexit,apartfromnotwantingtotalkBrexit.Ithinkit'satotalanddevastatingdisaster,really.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.Arethereanylightsattheendofthattunnel?Anythingaboutthe30sanalogythatmakesitlook...No?Nothinghelpful?

MikeLeigh:Well,youtellme.

JohnPlotz: Idon'tknow.I'masking.I'maskingeveryonethat.Idon'tknow.

MikeLeigh:It'shardtoseeit.It'shardtoseeit.AstoTrumpandallofthat,it'sbeyond...Thurberhasthisstoryabout“thegreatestmanintheworld”;Remember?

JohnPlotz: No,Idon'trememberit.

Page 27 of 29

MikeLeigh:It'scalled“TheGreatestManintheWorld”,andthey’vebuiltanaeroplanethatcanflynonstoprightaroundtheworld,andthey'reconvinceditwillcrash,sotheyfindaguywho'sanidiotbecausetheyknowit'llcrash.Theyarrangeaneventtolamentthefactthathe'scrashedinadvanceofithappening,anditdoesn'tcrash,sotheyhavethisreception.Ofcoursehe'sthereatthereception.Hebehavesunbelievablybadlyandgropesallthewomen,andtheythinkthatwehavetodealwiththis.Thecrowdareoutsidethrongingtoseethishero.

JohnPlotz: It'saLindberghstoryinaway.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.Sofinallytheyconspire,andhegoesoutonthebalcony,andtheydiscretelypushhimoverthebalconyandheplungestohisdeath.Thentheyhavethelamentationandthememorialthattheyhadplanned.Forsomereason,inrelationtoTrump,Ikeepthinkingaboutthis.Thatidiotisprojectedintothechair,intotheseatofpower,behavesinacompletelyerraticand...

JohnPlotz: Right.Thedifferenceiseveryonearoundhimisplungingtotheirdeath.Theentirecirclegetsdestroyed,buthedoesn'tgetdestroyed.

MikeLeigh:Idon'tknow.

JohnPlotz: Doyouknow,there'sacharacter,Middlemarch,whoflourisheswonderfullyonmurderedmen'sbrains?

MikeLeigh:Yeah.

JohnPlotz: That'swhatheis.He'sthesaprophyte.Yeah.

MikeLeigh:Butyou'vegotchildren,haveyou?

JohnPlotz: Yeah,twoteenagers.

MikeLeigh:Yeah.Soyou'vegotteenagers.

JohnPlotz: They'refuriousatus.

MikeLeigh:Well,that'swhatIwasgoingtosaywas.

Page 28 of 29

JohnPlotz: Yeah,absolutely.

MikeLeigh:WewhohaveraisedkidswouldknowhowtodealwithTrump,butsomebodywhodoesn'tdealwithhim.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.

MikeLeigh:Heisanindulgedbrat.

JohnPlotz: I'vegottosay,though,theytakethePhilipLarkinline."Don'thaveanykidsyourself."Theydon'tunderstandwhywehadkids.That'sanunbelievablething.

MikeLeigh:Well,theymaygetoverit.

JohnPlotz: Theymaygetoverit.Iunderstandthat'ssomethingthata16-year-oldsays.

MikeLeigh:It'sathingyou'reonlystartingtohear.Thenumberofnewbabiesduringthecourseofthetimewe'vebeenhavingthisconversationwouldactuallyfillmostofthishotelintheworld.That'sverydepressing.Ontheotherhand,aworldinwhichnobodygetsbornistheendoftheworld,soit'shardtoresolvethisparticularproblem.

JohnPlotz: Well,I'vealwaysbeenahugefanofsciencefictionsincegrowingup,butI'venoticedinthelastfiveor10years,it'salotmoreappealingtoalotmorepeoplethanitusedtobe,andIthinkpartofitisthatnotionofwejustfeellikehumanityhasfuckedeverythingup,somaybethere'ssomeotheranswer,eitheroutthere,ormaybeweshouldjustletthemoldandtheslimewormstakeover,theslimemoldstakeover,likeattheendofTheTimeMachinewhenthethingwithclawscomesout.

MikeLeigh:Yeah,no.Idon'tknowaboutthat.

JohnPlotz: Yeah.Allright.Well,Mike,thankyou,really,alot.

MikeLeigh:Goodtotalk.

JohnPlotz: Iappreciateyourtime.

Page 29 of 29

MikeLeigh:No,thankyou.Goodtalkingtoyou.

JohnPlotz: RecallThisBookisthebrainchildofJohnPlotzandElizabethFerry.ThemusiccomesfromasongbyEricChasalowandBarbaraCassidy.SoundeditingisbyClaireOgden.WebsitedesignandsocialmediabyMatthewSchratz,andonourwebsiteaswellasintheprogramnotesonStitcheroriTunes,youwillfindsomefootnotestotoday'sinterviewincludinglinkstoabunchofMikeLeighfilmsandvariousotherworksmentionedintheinterview.Wealwayswanttohearfromyoudirectlywithyourcomments,criticismsorsuggestions.Finally,ifyouenjoyedtoday'sshow,pleasebesuretoforwardittofriendsandfamily,andwritearevieworrateusoniTunes,Stitcher,orwhereveryougetyourpodcast.Itmakesahugedifferencetous.We'reveryappreciative.

JohnPlotz: Youmaybeinterestedincheckingoutpastepisodes,includinginterviewswithSamuelDelaney,Chinesesci-figreat,CixinLiu,andZadieSmith,whoneedsnoadjective.Upcomingepisodesinourjam-packedfallincludeaconversationaboutscientificcollaborationandwhyit'sbetterthanhumanisticcollaboration,withthestringtheorist,AlbionLawrence,andadiscussionofspiesandstatesurveillancewiththeanthropologist,KatherineVerdery.Thanksforlistening,andwe'llbebacksoon.