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8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/fake-whistleblower-robert-maclean-fired-air-marshal-sworn-deposition- 1/141
Page 1
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
MERIT SYSTEMS PROTECTION BOARD
WESTERN REGIONAL OFFICE
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
ROBERT J . MACLEAN,
A p p e l l a n t ,11
Docke t No .
v. S F - 0 7 S 2 - 0 6 - 0 6 11 - I - l
DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
TRANSPORTATION SECURITY
ADMINISTRATION,
Agency,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
I r v i n e , C a l i f o r n i a
Wednesday, Augus t 2 , 2006
D e p o s i t i o n o f
ROBERT J . MacLEAN
a w i t n e s s o f l awfu l a g e , t a ke n on b e h a l f o f t h e
Depar tment o f Homeland S e c u r i t y i n t h e a b o v e - e n t i t l e d
a c t i o n , a t 2 Wr i g l e y, F i r s t F loo r, I r v i n e , C a l i f o r n i a ,
b e f o r e P a u l e t t e Vanton , CSR No . 6962 , C e r t i f i e d
S h o r t h a n d R e p o r t e r i n and f o r t h e S t a t e o f C a l i f o r n i a ,
commencing a t 9 : 3 4 a .m.
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/fake-whistleblower-robert-maclean-fired-air-marshal-sworn-deposition- 2/141
Page 2
APPEARANCES:
On b e h a l f o f t h e U.S. Depar tment o f Homeland S e c u r i t y :
EILEEN DIZON CALAGUAS, ESQ.
T r a n s p o r t a t i o n S e c u r i t y A d m i n i s t r a t i o n
1001 B a y h i l l D r i v e , 2nd F l o o r
San Bruno , C a l i f o r n i a 94066
(650) 616-4113
On b e h a l f o f t h e Wi t n e s s :
PETER H. NOONE, ESQ.
La w O f f i c e s o f Avery, Dooley, P o s t & Avery :
90 Concord Avenue
Belmont , M a s s a c h u s e t t s 02478
(617) 489-5300
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/fake-whistleblower-robert-maclean-fired-air-marshal-sworn-deposition- 3/141
Page 3
1 Job Announcement 25
2 Cond i t i on f o r Employment 32
3 Excerpt S e c t i o n 1.112 Pages 23 to 25 36
4 11-13-02 In t e r im SSI 61
5 10-8-03 In t e r im SS I 62
6Performance Agreement and Assessment
65
7 Performance Agreement and Assessment 66
8 Performance Agreement and Assessment 67
9 Tr a n s c r i p t of In t e rv iew wi th ICE/OPR 11 1
10 A f f i d a v i t 11 3
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/fake-whistleblower-robert-maclean-fired-air-marshal-sworn-deposition- 4/141
Page 4
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 MS. CALAGUAS: We a r e on th e reco rd a t 9:34
3 a .m. on Augus t 2, 2006 i n Lo s Angeles , C a l i f o r n i a .
4 Would t h e w i t n e s s p l e a s e r a i s e h i s r i g h t hand
5 t o t ake an oa th?
6 Whereupon,
7 ROBERT J . MacLEAN,
8 wa s c a l l e d as a w i t n e s s and , h av ing been f i r s t
9 du ly sworn, wa s examined and t e s t i f i e d as fo l l ows :
10 EXAMINATION
11 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
12 Q Good morning . I s i t MacLean? I s t h a t how you
13 pronounce you r name?
14 A MacLean.
15 Q I ' m E i l e e n Calaguas , I ' m t h e agency
16 r e p r e s e n t a t i v e f o r TSA.
17 We a r e he re i n the MSPB proceed ing , Docket No.
18 SF0752060611- I1 , and you a r e the a p p e l l a n t i n t h a t
19 proceed ing , c o r r e c t ?
20 A C o r r e c t .
21 Q Have you had you r d e p o s i t i o n t aken b e f o r e i n
22 any t ype of p roceed in g?
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/fake-whistleblower-robert-maclean-fired-air-marshal-sworn-deposition- 5/141
Page 5
1 A Yes .
2 Q So, j u s t a c o u p l e o f ground r u l e s b e f o r e we
3 g e t s t a r t e d on t h e q u e s t i o n i n g .
4 I t ' s i m p o r t a n t t h a t you l e t me f i n i s h my
5 q u e s t i o n f i r s t an d t h e n answer. I t makes i t v e r y
6 d i f f i c u l t f o r t h e c o u r t r e p o r t e r t o t a k e down w h a t ' s
7 b e i n g s a i d when we t a l k o v e r e a c h o t h e r . L i k e w i s e ,
8 I ' l l do t h e same and t r y t o n o t t o i n t e r r u p t yo u when
9 you a n s w e r my q u e s t i o n s .
10 A U n d e r s t o o d .
11 Q I s t h e r e a n y t h i n g t o d a y t h a t would p r e v e n t you
12 f rom g i v i n g h o n e s t t e s t i m o n y ?
13 A No, u n l e s s my a t t o r n e y o b j e c t s .
14 Q I s t h e r e a n y t h i n g t o d a y t h a t would p r e v e n t you
15 f rom g i v i n g a c c u r a t e t e s t i m o n y ?
16 A No .
17 MR . NOONE: You mean, m e d i c a t i o n o r a n y t h i n g
18 l i k e t h a t ? I s t h a t what y o u ' r e t a l k i n g a b o u t ?
19 MS. CALAGUAS: Yes.
20 MR . NOONE: T h a t ' s what s h e ' s g e t t i n g a t .
21 THE WITNESS: I h a v e a p r o b l e m . I m i g h t b e
22 r u n n i n g t o t h e ba throom b a c k a n d f o r t h . I h a v e a
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/fake-whistleblower-robert-maclean-fired-air-marshal-sworn-deposition- 6/141
Page 6
1 l i t t l e bug i n me o r someth ing , so I ' l l excuse my se l f
2 when I need t o .
3 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
4 Q L e t me know when you need t o t ake a b r e a k and
5 we can make a no te o f t h a t f o r t he r eco rd .
6 A I 'm unde r no medica t i on .
7 Q Good. I f you d o n ' t unde r s t and a q u e s t i o n t h a t
8 I 'm ask ing you , p l e a s e l e t me know t h a t . Oth e rwi s e ,
9 I 'm go ing t o assume t h a t you unde r s t and my q u e s t i o n
10 when yo u beg in you r answer.
11 Do you unde r s t and t h a t ?
12 A Unders tood.
13 Q Also , i t may be i n t h i s d e p o s i t i o n t h a t t h e r e
14 ma y be a need t o d i s c u s s s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y
15 i n fo rma t ion .
16 I f t h e r e i s a wa y t h a t you can r e spond t o a
17 q u e s t i o n wi thou t h av ing t o d ivu lge any s e n s i t i v e
18 s e c u r i t y i n fo rma t ion , I ask t h a t yo u l e t me know t h a t
19 t o answer a q u e s t i o n you may need t o d ivu lge s e n s i t i v e
20 s e c u r i t y i n fo rma t ion , and t hen I ' d l i k e you t o go ahead
21 and t r y t o answer t h a t q u e s t i o n wi thou t d i v u l g i n g t h a t
22 s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n fo rma t ion .
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/fake-whistleblower-robert-maclean-fired-air-marshal-sworn-deposition- 7/141
Page 7
1 Do y ou u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ques t i on?
2 A Not r e a l l y .
3 Doyo u want t o jump i n h e r e , P e t e? I 'm
4 supposed t o p o l i c e m y s e l f now?
5 MR. NOONE: E i l e e n , what y o u ' r e l ook ing f o r ,
6 if he t h i n k s t h a t one o f t h e q u e s t i o n s t h a t you 've
7 a sked i s go ing t o i l l i c i t a r e spon se t h a t r e q u i r e s him
8 t o s ay someth ing o f a s e n s i t i v e n a t u r e , y o u w a n t him t o
9 t r y t o a l e r t y ou t o t h a t ?
10 MS. CALAGUAS: Yes.
11 MR. NOONE: Secondly, t r y t o a n s w e r t h e
12 q u e s t i o n w i t h o u t r e l e a s i n g t h e s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y
13 i n f o r m a t i o n .
14 MS. CALAGUAS: Yes . But a l e r t me f i r s t , an d
15 maybe we c a n h a v e t h e q u e s t i o n r e p h r a s e d o r I ca n g ive
16 you f u r t h e r i n s t r u c t i o n s a t t h a t t im e .
17 MR. NOONE: J u s t so I am c l e a r , I w i l l a l s o
18 o b j e c t t o any o f t hose q u e s t i o n s , j u s t t o p r e s e r v e th e
19 r i g h t t o o b j e c t a t t h e t ime o f h e a r i n g and j u s t t o l e t
20 i t b e known t h a t h e ' s a n s w e r i n g t h e q u e s t i o n s t o
21 c o o p e r a t e w i t h yo u i n t h e f u r t h e r a n c e o f a n s w e r i n g t h e
22 q u e s t i o n s .
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/fake-whistleblower-robert-maclean-fired-air-marshal-sworn-deposition- 8/141
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1 MS. CALAGUAS: T h a t ' s f i n e .
2 I t ma y b e t h a t if t h a t t y p e o f d i s c u s s i o n i s
3 needed t o b e h ad on t h e r e c o r d , w e ' l l s e t up a s e p a r a t e
4 p rocedu re w h e r e we h a v e tw o d i f f e r e n t v e r s i o n s o f t h e
5 t r a n s c r i p t , one , t h a t c o n t a i n s t h e s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y
6 i n f o r m a t i o n and one t h a t d o e s n ' t .
7 MR. NOONE: Maybe can we go o f f r e c o r d f o r a
8 s e c o n d ?
9 MS. CALAGUAS: S u r e , l e t ' s go o f f r e c o r d .
10 Thank y o u .
11 { D i s c u s s i o n was h e l d o f f t h e r e c o r d . }
12 MS. CALAGUAS: The p a r t i e s h a v e h a d some I:
13 o f f - r e c o r d d i s c u s s i o n s a n d h a v e r e a c h e d a s t i p u l a t i o n
14 a s t o t h e h a n d l i n g o f t h e t r a n s c r i p t s i n t h i s
15 p r o c e e d i n g .
16 S h o u l d t h e t r a n s c r i p t s c o n t a i n s e n s i t i v e
17 s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n , t h e p a r t i e s have a g r e e d - - an d
18 p l e a s e c o r r e c t me, Mr. Noone, i f I g e t t h i s
19 i n c o r r e c t - - t h e p a r t i e s h a v e a g r e e d t o h a v e t h e
20 t r a n s c r i p t s s e a l e d , an d t h e agency w i l l t a k e
21 r e s p o n s i b i l i t y i n l a b e l i n g t h e t r a n s c r i p t s a s n e c e s s a r yI
22 t o p r o t e c t s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/fake-whistleblower-robert-maclean-fired-air-marshal-sworn-deposition- 9/141
Page 9
1 In s e a l i n g t h e t r a n s c r i p t s , t h e p a r t i e s have
2 a l s o ag reed n o t t o d i s c l o s e t h e t r a n s c r i p t ' s c o n t e n t t o
3 anyone o u t s i d e o f t h i s p roc ee d in g an d i t w i l l b e used
4 o n l y f o r t h e s o l e pu rp os e s o f t h i s p r o c e e d i n g .
5 MR. NOONE: I a g r e e t o t h a t .
6 MS. CALAGUAS: Okay. Thank you .
7 Q Do yo u unde r s t and t h e oa th t h a t yo u t oo k p r i o r
8 t o t h e s t a r t o f t h i s d e p o s i t i o n ?
9 A Yes .
10 Q Where do yo u c u r r e n t l y l i v e , Mr . MacClean?
11 A 11 K n o t t y Oak C i r c l e , t h r e e words , Coto de
12 Caza , t h e C i t y , t h a t ' s a l s o t h r e e words , s p e l l e d
13 C - o - t - o , n e x t word, d - e , t h i r d wo rd ' s C - a - z - a ,
14 C a l i f o r n i a , Z ip Code 94679 .
15 Q At t h e conc lus ion o f t h i s d e p o s i t i o n ,
16 t r a n s c r i p t s w i l l be p r e p a r e d an d y o u ' l l have an
17 o p p o r t u n i t y t o rev iew t h o s e t r a n s c r i p t s . I t w i l l
18 e i t h e r b e s e n t t o you r home o r be s e n t t o yo u t h rough
19 y o u r a t t o r n e y .
20 I n r ev i ew ing t hose t r a n s c r i p t s , if you make
21 any changes t o you r t e s t imony, do you unde r s t and t h a t I
22 have t h e r i g h t t o comment on any changes yo u make a t
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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Page 10
1 h e a r i n g ?
2 A Yes , I u n d e r s t a n d .
3 Q Are you c u r r e n t l y employed , Mr . MacLean?
4 A I am c u r r e n t l y r e c e i v i n g a f e e f o r a c t i n g a s
5 C o n s e r v a t o r f o r t h e e s t a t e o f my m o t h e r. I t ' s a - - t h e
6 c o u r t o f S a n t a C l a r a County, C a l i f o r n i a a p p o i n t e d me
7 t h e l e g a l C o n s e r v a t o r f o r my mother i n 1 9 9 3 , a n d I
8 r e c e i v e a m o n t h l y fe e t h a t wa s d i r e c t e d b y t h e C o u r t .
9 T h a t i s t h e o n l y income t h a t I r e c e i v e r i g h t now.
10 Q Was t h a t a so u r ce o f income, t h e n , t h a t yo u
11 r e c e i v e d s i n c e 1993?
12 A Yes .
13 Q So, t h i s income from t h e c o n s e r v a t o r s h i p was
14 i n a d d i t i o n t o an y s a l a r y income t h a t y ou r e c e i v e d
15 w h i l e w o r k i n g f o r TSA?
16 A Yes .
17 Q A s i d e f rom t h a t , do you h a v e an y o t h e r s o u r c e s
18 o f income c u r r e n t l y ?
19 A No .
20 Q A f t e r l e a v i n g TSA, d i d you s e c u r e employment
21 anywhere e l s e ?
22 A No .
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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Page 1 1
1 Q What have you done t o t r y t o secu re
2 employment , i f any th ing?
3 A I have n o t been ab le t o s ecu re employment. I
4 have been working f u l l - t i m e on my Appeals i n r e g a r d s t o
5 t h i s MSPB h e a r i n g .
6 I have had t o r e l o c a t e my fami ly from Las
7 Vegas, Nevada t o my ne w a d d r e s s due t o t h e a c t i o n s t h a t
8 a re be ing a l l e g e d i n t h i s i s s u e .
9 Q When d id you say - - maybe you d i d n ' t say, b u t
10 when d i d you r e l o c a t e your f a mi ly from Las Vegas?
11 A I r e l o c a t e d app rox ima te ly November o f 2005.
12 That wa s my whole f ami ly.
13 My t r a n s f e r , my p r o f e s s i o n a l t r a n s f e r from t h e
14 Las Vegas f i e l d o f f i c e t o th e Lo s Angeles f i e l d o f f i c e
15 was approved i n November o f ' 04 .
16 U n t i l I s o l d my house i n th e Las Vegas a r e a , I
17 cou ld n o t move a l l my h ou seho l d goods and my f ami ly t o
18 C a l i f o r n i a .
19 Q Sor ry, d i d you say November of '04?
20 A I b e l i e v e i t wa s e i t h e r October of '0 4 o r
21 November o f ' 04 . I 'm no t su re when t h e a c t u a l t r a n s f e r !
22 was. I t shou ld say i n my SF50 when my t r a n s f e r wa s
.....
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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Page 12
1 made from - - o f f i c i a l from Las Vegas t o Lo s Angeles i n
2 permanent .
3 I r e c e i v e d a t emporary a u t h o r i z a t i o n t o work
4 ou t o f th e Lo s Angeles o f f i c e t empora r i ly s e v e r a l
5 months p r i o r t o t h a t due t o my w i f e ' s g u s t a t i o n
6 d iabe tes and pregnancy compl i ca t ions .
7 Q But when you r e l o c a t e d your fami ly, t h a t was
8 i n November of 'OS, t h e fo l lowing y e a r a f t e r you
9 t e m p o r a r i l y t r a n s f e r r e d your ass ignment from Vegas to
10 Lo s Angeles ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
11 A T h a t ' s when a l l of my household - - when my
12 house was f i n a l l y s o l d and I was a b l e t o move my
13 household goods and eve ry th ing e l s e .
14 In the t ime between, t h e r e wa s temporary t imes
15 where t hey had t o s t a y he re i n C a l i f o r n i a o r they cou ld
16 s t a y i n La s Vegas.
17 But due to th e move and t r y i n g t o s e l l t h e
18 house , t h e family had t o move back and f o r t h .
19 I 'm l i v i n g r i g h t now wi th my mother, and
20 t h a t ' s why t hey would t empora r i ly s t a y t h e r e . I t wa s a
21 back and f o r t h a c t i o n t h a t happened t h roughou t t h e
22 t ime .
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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Page 13
1 Q When yo u h ad r e q u e s t e d t o t r a n s f e r f rom Las
2 Vegas t o Los A n g e l e s , d id you a l r e a d y have t h e i n t e n t
3t o r e l o c a t e you r f a m i l y ?
4 A Permanent ly?
5 Q Yes, pe r manen t l y.
6 A Yes.
7 Q So, s i n c e t h e t ime t h a t you were removed from
8 TSA t o t h e p r e s e n t , yo u have made no i n q u i r e s f o r work?
9 A I ' v e made i n q u i r e s .
10 Q Ca n you d e s c r i b e t h o s e i n q u i r e s t o me?
11 A I submi t t ed a - - I have an o n - l i n e resume.
12 Q Ca n you i d e n t i f y f o r me which p e r s p e c t i v e
13 e m p l o y e r s you submi t t h e i n q u i r e s to ?
14 A No, I j u s t have my resume o n - l i n e .
15 I d i d s u b m i t resumes o n - l i n e t o - - f o r
16 s e c u r i t y employment . One o f them c a l l e d me b a c k f o r an
17 i n t e r v i e w, an d t h a t employer was JC Penny ' s .
18 Q D id y ou r e c e i v e an o f f e r o f employment from JC
19 P enny ' s ?
20 A No, I d id n o t .
21 Q Do you r e c a l l when y o u r i n t e r v i e w wa s w i t h JC
22 P enny ' s ?
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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Page 14
1 A On o r a r o u n d December o f 2005 .
2 Q So, t h a t wa s w h i l e you were s t i l l employed
3 w i t h TSA b u t on admin l e ave ?
4 A C o r r e c t .
5 Q An y o t h e r j o b i n t e r v i e w s ?
6 A No .
7 Q When yo u s ay t h a t y o u r resume wa s o n - l i n e ,
8 does t h a t mean t h a t you h ad i t p o s t e d on some s o r t o f
9 j o b s i t e ?
10 A Yeah, i t wa s m o n s t e r. com.
11 Q Okay, I u n d e r s t a n d . Thank y o u .
12 Since l e a v i n g TSA's employment , d i d yo u
13 r e c e i v e an y D i s a b i l i t y b e n e f i t s ?
14 A No .
15 Q An y Workers ' Compensa t ion b e n e f i t s ?
16 A No . The o n l y t ime I r e c e i v e d a D i s a b i l i t y wa sI
17 a t t h e J u l y ~A u g u s t o f 2004 . I 'm s o r r y , 2005 . An d
18 t h a t would be Workers ' Compensa t ion b e n e f i t s , c o r r e c t .
19 Q T h a t wa s f o r a h i p i n j u r y o f some s o r t ?
i,20 A Yes.
21 Q Do y ou know t h e n a t u r e o f t h e b e n e f i t s ?
22 A I d o n ' t u n d e r s t a n d .
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1 Q Do you know w he the r o r no t th e b e n e f i t s were
2 c o n t i n u a t i o n o f pay b e n e f i t s ?
3 A I r e c e i v e d c o n t i n u a t i o n o f pay from t h e
4 agency, and I r e c e i v e d Workers ' Compensation from t h e
5 Depar tment of Labor.
6 Q So , th e Department o f Labor accep ted your
7 c l a im f o r t h e Workers ' Compensat ion i n j u r y, c o r r e c t ?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Did you r ecove r from t h a t i n j u r y ?
10 A Yes.
11 Q When?
12 A I t was i n September of 2005.
13MR. NOONE:
E i l e e n , n o t t o i n t e r r u p t , b u t I
14 j u s t wanted t o b r i n g t h i s up t o you. I meant t o b r i n g
15 i t up b e f o r e t h e d e p o s i t i o n .
16 We're going t o withdraw t h e D i s a b i l i t y
17 d i s c r i m i n a t i o n from t h e de fense .
18 So, i f t h a t sho"r tcu ts any of y ou r q u e s t i o n i n g ,
19 you a r e more t han welcome t o ask any q u e s t i o n s t h a t you
20 want , bu t w e ' r e fo rma l ly withdrawing th e a f f i r m a t i v e
21 de fense d i s a b i l i t y d i s c r i m i n a t i o n . ,
22 MS. CALAGUAS: Thank you f o r t h a t
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1 c l a r i f i c a t i o n .
2 Ca n we go o f f r eco rd f o r a second?
3 (A b r e a k wa s t aken . )
4 MS. CALAGUAS: Back on th e r e c o r d .
5 During t h e break , th e p a r t i e s have had
6 d i s c u s s i o n as t o t h e s t a t u s o f Mr. MacLean's pending
7 b u t s e p a r a t e EEO compla in t , and Mr. MacLean has
8 i n d i c a t e d t h a t he wi sh es to withdraw t h a t EEO compla in t
9 a t wha teve r s t a g e i t may be .
10 Q I s t h a t c o r r e c t , Mr. MacLean?
11 A That i s c o r r e c t . I w i l l o f f i c i a l l y withdraw
12 my EEO a c t i o n i n r ega rds t o my t emporary d i s a b i l i t y ,
13 and I w i l l o f f i c i a l l y withdraw i t from t h i s MSPB
14 proceed ing .
15 MR. NOONE: Th e a f f i r m a t i v e de fense o f
16 d i s a b i l i t y d i s c r i m i n a t i o n i s withdrawn from t h i s MSPB
17 c a s e .
18 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
19 Q And t h a t would be wi th p r e j u d i c e f o r bo th
20 wi thd rawa l s , c o r r e c t ?
21 MR. NOONE: Yes. What t h a t means i s , f o r e v e r
22 we w i l l be b a r r e d from r a i s i n g t h a t de fense on t h i s
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1 a c t i o n , an d t h a t ' s c o r r e c t ?
2 THE WITNESS: T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .
3 MS. CALAGUAS: Thank you f o r t h a t
4 c l a r i f i c a t i o n .
5 Q S i n c e l e a v i n g TSA's employment , d i d you
6 r e c e i v e any Unemployment I n s u r a n c e b e n e f i t s ?
7 A No .
8 Q D id y ou s e e k Unemployment I n s u r a n c e b e n e f i t s ?
9 A No .
10 Q Why n o t ?
11 A I was l i v i n g w i t h my m o t h e r a n d c o l l e c t i n g a
12 s m a l l f e e f o r t h e c o n s e r v a t o r s h i p , a s I h a v e b e e n ,
13 s i n c e 1 9 9 3 . T h e r e f o r e , I d i d n o t b e l i e v e t h a t I was
14 e l i g i b l e f o r Unemployment b e n e f i t s .
15 Q I n r e a c h i n g t h a t b e l i e f , d i d you c o n s u l t w i t h
16 t h e Unemployment I n s u r a n c e agency?
17 A No , I d i d n o t .
18 Q D id yo u a s k an y q u e s t i o n s o f anyone w i t h
19 r e g a r d t o y o u r e l i g i b i l i t y f o r Unemployment I n s u r a n c e
20 b e n e f i t s ?
21 A Yes .
22 MR . NOONE: I 'm g o i n g t o i n s t r u c t yo u n o t t o
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Page 18
1 answer any q u e s t i o n s wi th r e s p e c t to any c o n v e r s a t i o n s
2 you had wi th any a t t o r n e y . Okay.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay, yes . In fo rma l
4 c o n v e r s a t i o n s I ' v e had, and I unde r s tood t h a t as l ong
5 as I was r e c e i v i n g any income, I cou ld n o t be e l i g i b l e
6 f o r unemployment b e n e f i t s .11
7 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
8 Q So t h a t I 'm c l e a r , I 'm no t a sk ing you a bo u t
9 th e c o n t e n t o f your c o n v e r s a t i o n s , b u t j u s t w he the r o r
10 no t you had any c o n v e r s a t i o n s , formal o r i n fo rma l , w i th
11 an a t t o r n e y abou t yo u r e l i g i b i l i t y f o r i n s u r a n c e
12 employment b e n e f i t s .
13 MR. NOONE: I 'm go in g t o o b j e c t s imply be cause
14 I want t o p r e s e r v e th e o b j e c t i o n .
15 But I a l s o t h i n k t h a t h i s answer t h a t he has
16 a l r e a d y g iven would d ivu lge any communicat ions t h a t he
17 may have had wi th an a t t o r n e y .
18 With t h e o b j e c t i o n no ted , yo u can answer th e
19 q u e s t i o n .
20 THE WITNESS: I d id no t c o l l e c t Unemployment
21 In su rance because I had formal and i n fo rma l
22 c o n v e r s a t i o n s , and I always b e l i e v e d t h a t I cou ld no t
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P a g e 19 II
1 c o l l e c t Unemployment I n s u r a n c e b e c a u s e I am c u r r e n t l y
2 r e c e i v i n g an income where I am c l a i m i n g S o c i a l S e c u r i t y
3 and incomet a x e s
fromt h e c o n s e r v a t o r s h i p .
4 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
5 Q My q u e s t i o n i s , y e s o r n o , w h e t h e r o r n o t y o u r
6 in fo rma l an d formal c o n v e r s a t i o n s were w i t h an
7 a t t o r n e y ?
8 A No, t h e y were n o t .
9 Q Who d i d you have t h e s e c o n v e r s a t i o n s t hen
10 w i t h ?
11 A Othe r peop l e who have c o l l e c t e d Unemployment
12 b e n e f i t s .
13 Q You ment ioned S o c i a l S e c u r i t y b e n e f i t s . I s
14 t h a t a t y p e o f b e n e f i t t h a t you r e c e i v e d a f t e r l e a v i n g
15 TSA t o t h e p r e s e n t ?
16 A No . What I mean by t h a t wa s t h a t t h e income
17 t h a t I r e c e i v e from my m o t h e r ' s c o n s e r v a t o r s h i p i s
18 w i t h d r a w i n g S o c i a l S e c u r i t y - - I 'm t h e n o t s u r e o f t h e
19 e x a c t t e r m i n o l o g y, b u t S o c i a l S e c u r i t y, payments t o
20 SSI , I b e l i e v e i t i s , an d S t a t e Income Tax and F e d e r a l
21 Income Tax i s withdrawn.
22 T h a t ' s what I mean by t h a t answer.
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1 Q Thank you .
2 A I have n o t r e c e i v e d any S o c i a l S e c u r i t y
3 b e n e f i t s .
4 Q Okay, t h a n k you f o r c l a r i f y i n g t h a t .
5 I n h a n d l i n g y o u r m o t h e r ' s c o n s e r v a t o r s h i p ,
6 d o e s t h a t make y ou u n a v a i l a b l e f o r employment?
7 A No , i t does n o t .
8 Q S i n c e l e a v i n g TSA's employment , a r e you
9 a v a i l a b l e f o r f u l l - t i m e employment?
10 A Yes, I am.
11 Q B e f o r e j o i n i n g TSA, where d i d you work?
12 A F or t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s B o r d e r P a t r o l .
13 Q What was y o u r p o s i t i o n t h e r e a t B o r d e r P a t r o l ?
14 A B o r d e r P a t r o l Agent .
15 Q How l o n g were you a B o r d e r P a t r o l Agent?
16 A S i n c e May 20 , o f 1996 .
17 Q While a B o r d e r P a t r o l Agent , were you
18 r e s p o n s i b l e f o r h a n d l i n g c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n ?
19 A Yes.
20 Q What t ype o f c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n d i d yo u
21 h a n d l e ?
22 MR. NOONE: I 'm j u s t g o i n g t o n o t e an
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I'
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1 o b j e c t i o n and t hen you can answer.
2 MS. CALAGUAS: On what b a s i s ?
3 MR. NOONE: I t ' s o ve r b r oad .
4 MS. CALAGUAS: Okay.
5 MR. NOONE: I f you want t o t r y t o nar row i t
6 down o r j u s t make i t c l e a r what y o u ' r e a s k i n g . Over
7 h i s e n t i r e c a r e e r o r a t any p a r t i c u l a r t ime? T h a t ' s
8 a l l .
9 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
10 Q Over you r e n t i r e c a r e e r as a Border P a t r o l
11 Agent .
12 My unde r s t and ing i s , you worked t h e r e s i n c e
13 1996, c o r r e c t ?
14 A C o r r e c t .
15 Q So, s i n c e you s t a r t e d working a s a Border
16 P a t r o l Agent , what t y pe of c o n f i d e n t i a l i n fo rma t ion d i d
17 you hand l e?
18 A Per sona l i n fo rma t ion o f f e l l ow agen t s t h a t I
19 worked w i t h . A f f i d a v i t s , r e p o r t s o f i n v e s t i g a t i o n ,
20 p e r s o n a l d a t a o f c r i m i n a l and a d m i n i s t r a t i v e s u s p e c t s .
21 Q Anyth ing e l s e ?
22 A P r e t t y much any th ing t h a t a Bord e r P a t r o l
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1 Agent hand le s i n t h e c o u r s e o f h i s d u t i e s . At t h i s
2 moment, I c a n ' t t h i n k o f a n y t h i n g e l s e .
3 I b e l i e v e I d i s c u s s e d most o fi t
i n g e n e r a l
4 t e rms .
5 Most o f t h e i n fo rma t ion t h a t I han d l ed wa s
6 p e r s o n a l d a t a . Sometimes t h e r e wa s c o n f i d e n t i a l
7 i n f o r m a t i o n i f t h e r e wa s a c r i m i n a l case i nvo lved where
8 I h ad t o t e s t i f y and any th ing - - I knew i n f o r m a t i o n
9 t h a t wa s t o a s s i s t i n a p r o s e c u t i o n o f a c r i m i n a l
10 s u s p e c t o r a w i t n e s s , a m a t e r i a l w i t n e s s i n t h a t c a s e .
11 T h a t ' s a l l I c a n t h i n k o f r i g h t now.
12 Q What were y ou r r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s w i t h r e s p e c t
13 t o h a n d l i n g t h e t y p e o f c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t
14 you j u s t d e s c r i b e d ?
15 A I ha d a mora l and l e g a l o b l i g a t i o n t o p r o t e c t
16 t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n .
17 Q What do y ou mean by p r o t e c t ?
18 A T h a t i t d i d n o t g e t i n t o t h e wrong h a n d s o f a
19 c r i m i n a l e l emen t .
20 MR. NOONE: E i l e e n , can I j u s t ask y ou t o make
21 s u r e t h a t w e ' r e on t h e same page on what y o u ' r e a s k i n g ?
i,22 You a sked abou t c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n .
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1 MS. CALAGUAS: Yes.
2 MR. NOONE: Are you t a l k i n g - - I gue s s I want
3 t o h e a r what you r d e f i n i t i o n of c o n f i d e n t i a l
4 i n fo rma t ion i s based on and make su re t h a t h e ' s
5 answer ing th e same q u e s t i o n s .
6 I s i t l e g a l l y c o n f i d e n t i a l i n fo rma t ion , agency
7 d e s i g n a t e d c o n f i d e n t i a l i n fo rma t ion , i s i t c l a s s i f i e d
8 i n fo rma t ion?
9 I j u s t want to make su re t h a t h i s answers a re
10 r e spons ive t o what y o u ' r e t h i n k i n g .
11 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
12 Q D id you unde r s t and what I meant when I used
13 th e word " c o n f i d e n t i a l , " Mr. MacLean?
14 A My d e f i n i t i o n o f c o n f i d e n t i a l i n fo rma t ion i s
15 p e r s o n a l d a t a , i n fo rma t ion t h a t i f no t sa f egua rded
16 cou ld be d e t r i m e n t a l t o a c r i m i n a l p r o s e c u t i o n o r an
17 a d m i n i s t r a t i v e p r o s e c u t i o n , o r an a d m i n i s t r a t i v e
18 proceed ing .
19 Per sona l names, addres ses o f m a t e r i a l
20 w i t n e s s e s , c r i m i n a l s u s p e c t s , Fede ra l Agents , p u b l i c
21 m a t e r i a l w i t n e s s e s .
22 Q Using you r d e f i n i t i o n o f " c o n f i d e n t i a l
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i
•
•
i
1
j
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1 i n f o r m a t i o n , 11 ho w d id you make s u r e t h a t t h a t
2 c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n w h i l e w o r k i n g a t B o r d e r P a t r o l
3 d i d n ' t g e t i n t o t h e wrong h a n d s , a s yo u p r e v i o u s l y
4 t e s t i f i e d ?
5 A We l l , I n e v e r t o o k i n fo rma t ion w i t h me o u t s i d e
6 o f t h e s t a t i o n , and I n e v e r d i s c u s s e d c o n f i d e n t i a l
7 i n f o r m a t i o n w i t h anybody who d i d n ' t have a
8 n e e d - t o - k n o w.
9 Q So, when d i d you j o i n TSA?
10 A O c t o b e r 14 , 2001 . T h a t ' s n o t r i g h t .
11 I j o i n e d t h e F e d e r a l Avia t i on A d m i n i s t r a t i o n
12 i n O c t o b e r 14 th o f 2001 . I t wa s t u r n e d i n t o t h e TSA, I
13 b e l i e v e , s e v e r a l months l a t e r . A y e a r l a t e r , I
14 b e l i e v e , i t went t o I m m i g r a t i o n an d Customs
15 Enforcement , an d s e v e r a l months l a t e r , i t went b a c k t o
16 TSA.
17 Q Thank you f o r c l a r i f y i n g t h a t an d making t h a t
18 c o r r e c t i o n o f o u r h i s t o r y w i t h TSA.
19 D id you a p p l y t o any p a r t i c u l a r v a c a n c y
20 announcement w i t h t h e FAA i n g e t t i n g y o u r p o s i t i o n t h a t
21 e v e n t u a l l y came t o TSA?
22 A Yes. I r e s p o n d e d t o an announcement f o r a
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1 C i v i l Av i a t i o n S e c u r i t y S p e c i a l i s t , p a r e n t h e s i s ,
2 F e d e r a l A ir M a r s h a l vacancy, t h a t wa s p u t ou t by t h e
3 F e d e r a l Av i a t i o n A d m i n i s t r a t i o n .
4 Q L et me have you t ake a l ook a t a document , an d
5 w e ' l l h a v e t h i s marked a s E x h i b i t 1 .
6 ( E x h i b i t 1 wa s marked by t h e
7 r e p o r t e r f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )
8 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
9 Q Have you had a chance t o t a k e a l ook a t
10 E x h i b i t 1 , Mr . MacLean?
11 A Yes, I h a v e .
12 Q Do y ou r ecogn ize t he e x h i b i t ?
13 A Yes, I do .
14 Q What i s i t ?
15 A T h i s appe a r s t o be t h e announcement t h a t I
16 r e s p o n d e d t o an d f i l e d an a p p l i c a t i o n f o r .
17 Q D id you r ev i e w t h i s announcement a t t h e t i m e
18 t h a t you f i l e d y o u r a p p l i c a t i o n f o r t h i s p o s i t i o n ?
19 A Yes, I d i d .
20 Q Did you s e e , t h e n , on t h e f i r s t p a g e o f t h i s
21 announcement a t t h e bot tom o f t h e page t h a t , "The
22 r e l e a s e o f s e n s i t i v e o r c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ma y b e
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1 b a s i s f o r removal from t h e p o s i t i o n " ?
2 A Yes, I do.
3 MR. NOONE: I t h i n k t h e q u e s t i o n was, d id you
4 see i t ? I j u s t want t o make su re you unde r s tood t h e
5 q u e s t i o n .
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I d i d r ead t h i s l i n e when I
7 a p p l i e d , and I se e i t r i g h t now i n f r o n t o f me.
8 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
9 Q D id you have any q u e s t i o n s abo u t t h a t l i n e
10 t h a t you r ead when app ly ing f o r t h i s p o s i t i o n ?
11 A S e n s i t i v e i n fo rma t ion i s a ne w t e rm f o r me.
12 I t wa s a ne w t e rm f o r me a t t h a t p o i n t .
13 Th e on ly t yp e of i n f o r m a t i o n - - t h e on ly type
14 of i n fo rma t ion t h a t I b e l i e v e d needed any t ype of
15 sa fegua rd ing wa s e i t h e r c o n f i d e n t i a l o r c l a s s i f i e d
16 i n fo rma t ion . C l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , such as "Sec re t "1
17 o r "Top S e c r e t . "
18 S e n s i t i v e i n fo rma t ion wa s a ne w t e rm f o r me.
19 Q At some p o i n t , d id you have an unde r s t and ing
20 t h a t s e n s i t i v e i n fo rma t ion wa s a t ype o f c o n f i d e n t i a l
21 i n f o r m a t i o n ?
22 A No, I d id n o t .
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1 Q At any p o i n t ?
2 A A l l t h e t r a i n i n g an d d e f i n i t i o n s t h a t I
3 r e c e i v e d on what wa s s e n s i t i v e i n fo rma t ion wa s a t mos t
4 t imes c o n t r a d i c t o r y , c o n f u s i n g , and i t wa s a l w a y s , n o t
5 on ly w i t h myse l f b u t my p e e r s , wa s a con fus ing t e rm f o r
6 t h e s a f e g u a r d i n g o f i n f o r m a t i o n .
7 Q My q u e s t i o n s have t o do wi th y ou r
8 u n d e r s t a n d i n g , n o t y o u r p e e r s u n d e r s t a n d i n g . Okay, Mr .
9 MacLean?
10 L et me ask yo u f i r s t a b o u t t h e t r a i n i n g t h a t
11 you r e c e i v e d when becoming a C i v i l Av i a t i o n S e c u r i t y
12 S p e c i a l i s t , o t h e r w i s e known a s a F e d e r a l A i r Mar sha l .
13 What was y o u r i n i t i a l t r a i n i n g i n t o t h i s
14 p o s i t i o n ? L e t me be more s p e c i f i c .
15 Did you have a s e t number o f weeks f o r
16 t r a i n i n g i n t o a p p o i n t m e n t t o t h i s p o s i t i o n a s FAM,
17 F-A-M?
18 A To my knowledge , I b e l i e v e I d id r e c e i v e some:
19 o r a l t r a i n i n g a s t o what wa s s e n s i t i v e i n f o r m a t i o n , an d
20 I wa s a l s o g i v e n - - I wa s a l s o g i v e n a p a m p h l e t , I
21 s h o u l d sa y a d o c u m e n t a t i o n , on what wa s s e n s i t i v e
22 i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t I wa s t o r e a d .
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1 MR. NOONE: I 'm j u s t g o i n g t o i n s t r u c t you t o
2 l i s t e n t o t h e q u e s t i o n , R o b e r t . I t h i n k h e r q u e s t i o n
3 wa s more g e n e r a l .
4 An d E i l e e n , c o r r e c t me i f I 'm wrong, I t h o u g h t
5 you were a s k i n g t r a i n i n g i n g e n e r a l when he wa s f i r s t
6 h i r e d by t h e FAMS, n o t j u s t t r a i n i n g s p e c i f i c a l l y on
7 any s e n s i t i v e o r c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n .
8 MS. CALAGUAS: Yes, t h a t i s my q u e s t i o n . I ' m
9 s o r r y if I con fused you , Mr . MacLean.
10 Q L e t ' s go back t o yo u r i n i t i a l g e n e r a l t r a i n i n g
11 as a FAM.
12 A Yes.
13 Q Did you t a k e t h a t 15-week academy, a s i t ' s
14 sometimes r e f e r r e d to ?
15 A I went t o an i n i t i a l - - I went t o a f i ve -w eek
16 academy from O c t o b e r t o m id November. I t wa s f o u r t o
17 f i v e weeks . I ' m n o t s u r e .
18 Q And t h a t would be O c t o b e r t o November o f 2001?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Th i s wa s t h e t r a i n i n g o u t i n New J e r s e y ,
21 c o r r e c t ?
22 A No. I t wa s b o t h i n New J e r s e y and i n A r t e g i a ,
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1 New Mexico . Yes , I b e l i e v e I s p e n t tw o weeks i n
2 A r t e g i a , New Mexico .
3Q D u r i n g t h i s t r a i n i n g , was t h e r e an y d i s c u s s i o n
4 o f s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n ?
5 A To my knowledge , I do n o t remember.
6 Q At t h i s t r a i n i n g , d i d yo u h a v e a n y d i s c u s s i o n
7 a b o u t y o u r s c h e d u l e a s a F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l ?
8 A Yes .
9 Q What d i d t h a t t r a i n i n g c o n s i s t o f w i t h r e g a r d
10 t o y o u r s c h e d u l e a s a F e d e r a l A i r Marsha l?
11 A T h a t we were t o f l y f r e q u e n t l y, and t h a t we
12 would b e away f rom home f r e q u e n t l y.
13 Q D u r i n g t h i s f i v e - w e e k t r a i n i n g c o u r s e , d id you
14 l e a r n o f an y r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s t h a t you h a d w i t h r e s p e c t
15 t o y o u r s c h e d u l e a s a F e d e r a l A i r Marsha l?
16 A I do n o t remember b e i n g s p e c i f i c a l l y t r a i n e d
17 on what my r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s were a s f a r a s s c h e d u l i n g
i18 a s a F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l .
19 As a F e d e r a l Law E n f o r c e m e n t O f f i c e r an d a
20 m i l i t a r y member, I ' d a lways know what n e e d s t o b e
21 s a f e g u a r d e d and c o n s i d e r e d c o n f i d e n t i a l o r c l a s s i f i e d
22 i n f o r m a t i o n .
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1 Q From t h i s t r a i n i n g , d id you have an
2 u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t y o u r s che du l e a s a F e d e r a l A i r
3 Marsha l needed t o remain c o n f i d e n t i a l ?
4 A I do n o t remember an y s p e c i f i c t r a i n i n g , b u t I
5 am c o n f i d e n t t h a t i t wa s e xp ec t ed t o s a f e g u a r d
11
I
6 c o n f i d e n t i a l and c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n .
7 Q At some p o i n t , d id you have t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g
8 t h a t y o u r s c h e d u l e a s a F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l was
9 c o n f i d e n t i a l ?
10 A I b e l i e v e d a s chedu l e o f a F e d e r a l A ir Marsha lI'
11 i s c o n s i d e r e d c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n .
12 Q Why do yo u t h i n k t h a t ?
13 A Because if a c r i m i n a l e l e m e n t , a ba d e l emen t ,
14 knows what a i r c r a f t I 'm going t o be on , o r knows where
15 I 'm s i t t i n g , o r knows where my p a r t n e r o r p a r t n e r s a r e
16 s i t t i n g on t h a t a i r c r a f t , t h a t i s c o n s i d e r e d c l a s s i f i e d
17 i n f o r m a t i o n .
18 B e c a u s e if a bad i n d i v i d u a l knows my p o s i t i o n i
19 o r my p a r t n e r ' s p o s i t i o n on t h a t a i r c r a f t , I c a n b e
20 ambushed, overcome, have my weapon o r my p a r t n e r ' s
21 weapons t aken away f rom them, used a g a i n s t t h e o t h e r
22 A ir M a r s h a l s o r an y o t h e r law e n f o r c e m e n t o f f i c e r on
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1 t h e a i r c r a f t ; h e n c e , t a k i n g c o n t r o l o f t h a t a i r c r a f t
2 and u s i n g t h a t a i r c r a f t a s a weapon o f mass d e s t r u c t i o n
3 o r k i l l i n g everybody on t h e a i r c r a f t .
4 T h e r e f o r e , I b e l i e v e any knowledge o f where my
5 p o s i t i o n o r my p a r t n e r ' s p o s i t i o n i s a n d w h a t a i r c r a f t
6 we a r e on i s c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n .
7 Q Based on you r unde r s t and ing t h a t y ou j u s t
8 d e s c r i b e d t h a t schedu le s i n a d d i t i o n t o where yo u r s e a t
9 a s s i g n m e n t ma y b e , f o r example, t h a t t h a t was
10 c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n and sh ou ld n o t b e s h a r e d w i t h
11 anyone t h a t does n o t have a n e e d - t o - k n o w ?
12 A C o r r e c t .
13 Q When would you s a y t h a t you f i r s t ha d t h i s
14 u n d e r s t a n d i n g ?
15 A Probab ly on t h e f i r s t week t h a t I t oo k t h i s
16 p o s i t i o n .
17 Q Would t h a t b e t h e f i r s t week o f t r a i n i n g o r
18 t h e f i r s t week when you a r e a c t u a l l y a s s i g n e d t o a i
19 f i e l d o f f i c e and d o i n g t h e job?
20 A T r a i n i n g .
21 Q So t h a t I 'm c l e a r , a f t e r you a c c e p t e d
22 employment a s a F e d e r a l A i r Marsha l , you f i r s t went t o
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1 t r a i n i n g , c o r r e c t ?
2 A No. I f i r s t wa s a n o r i e n t a t i o n .
3Q An d t h e n a f t e r o r i e n t a t i o n ?
4 A An d t h e n i n - p r o c e s s i n g .
5 Q A f t e r o r i e n t a t i o n a n d i n - p r o c e s s i n g , t h e n y ou
6 h ad t h e f i v e - w e e k t r a i n i n g t h a t you j u s t d e s c r i b e d
7 e a r l i e r ?
8 A Yes .
9 Q An d t h e n a f t e r t h a t p o i n t , you were a s s i g n e d a
10 p a r t i c u l a r f i e l d o f f i c e , c o r r e c t ?
11 A C o r r e c t .
12 Q Where was y o u r o r i e n t a t i o n an d i n - p r o c e s s i n g ,
13 by t h e way?
14 A H a i g H a r b o r, New J e r s e y . An d t h i s was a t t h e
15 F e d e r a l Av i a t i o n A d m i n i s t r a t i o n Te c h n i c a l C e n t e r
16 l o c a t e d t h e r e .
17 Q D id t h a t t a k e a b o u t a d ay t o do t h e
18 o r i e n t a t i o n and i n - p r o c e s s i n g ?
19 A I do n o t r e c a l l .
20 Q L e t me show you what w e ' l l mark a s E x h i b i t 2 .
21 ( E x h i b i t 2 was marked b y t h e
22 r e p o r t e r f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )
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1 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
2 Q Have yo u h ad a chance t o t a k e a l o o k a t
3 E x h i b i t 2 , Mr . MacLean?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Do y ou r e c o g n i z e t h e document?
6 A I ' v e s een i t b e f o r e . I acknowledge t h a t I
7 r e a d and s i g n e d t h i s document .
8 Q So, t h a t ' s y o u r s i g n a t u r e on t h e bot tom o f t h e
9 document?
10 A Yes .
11 Q A t t h e t i m e t h a t you s i g n e d t h i s document , d i d
12 you have any q u e s t i o n s a b o u t what you were s i g n i n g ?
13 A No , I d i d n o t .
14 Q So, y ou u n d e r s t o o d a t t h e t i m e t h a t yo u s i g n e d
15 t h i s document t h a t yo u ma y be removed from y o u r
16 p o s i t i o n a t FAM, f o r t h e u n a u t h o r i z e d r e l e a s e o f
17 s e c u r i t y s e n s i t i v e o r c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , c o r r e c t ?
18 A S t i l l d i d n ' t u n d e r s t a n d t h e t e r m i n o l o g y o f
19 " s e c u r i t y s e n s i t i v e , " and I wanted t h e j o b .
20 I h a d j u s t r e s i g n e d my p o s i t i o n , so I ha d t o
21 s i g n t h i s document . I t was a c o n d i t i o n o f employment .
22 I d i d n o t know what s e c u r i t y s e n s i t i v e
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1 i n f o r m a t i o n wa s t h e n , an d I s t i l l do n o t know t o i t
2 t h i s day. I have an i d e a what t h e agency would l i k e t o
3 c l a s s i f y a s s e c u r i t y s e n s i t i v e In fo rma t ion , b u t a t t h i s
4 p o i n t , I s t i l l do n o t have a d e f i n i t i o n o r an
5 u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f s e c u r i t y s e n s i t i v e i n f o r m a t i o n .
6 I f t h e r e i s a d e f i n i t i o n , and I t h i n k I ' v e
I
7 r e a d d e f i n i t i o n s o f i t, I s t i l l do n o t u n d e r s t a n d i t .
8 Q Bu t a t t h e t i m e t h a t you s i g n e d t h i s Cond i t i on
9 o f Employment form, y ou d i d n ' t ask any q u e s t i o n s a b o u t
10 any th ing on t h e form, c o r r e c t ?
11 A I do n o t r e c a l l a s k i n g any q u e s t i o n s .
12 Q W h a t ' s y o u r unde r s t and ing o f t h e hand l ing o f
13 c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n a t- -
14 MR. NOONE: Objec t i on . R e l e v a n c e .
15 You c a n a n s w e r.
16 THE WITNESS: I have been h a n d l i n g c l a s s i f i e d
17 i n f o r m a t i o n s i n c e 1989 , to p s e c r e t i n f o r m a t i o n .
18 I know t h a t i t must be s a f e g u a r d e d by a l l
19 means n e c e s s a r y.
20 BY MS. CALAGUAS: Ii
21 Q An d by s a f e g u a r d i n g c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ,
22 would t h a t i n c l u d e n o t g i v i n g t h i s t o someone t h a t does
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1 n o t have a n e e d - t o - k n o w ?
2 A U n l e s s t h e r e i s a law b e i n g v i o l a t e d and t h a t
3 t h e r e i s a d a n g e r t o t h e p u b l i c , o r if t h e r e i s an
4 a b u s e o f a u t h o r i t y .
5 Q So, you b e l i e v e t h e r e a r e e x c e p t i o n s t o t h e
6 s a f e g u a r d i n g o f c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , c o r r e c t ?
7 MR. NOONE: O b j e c t i o n . R e l e v a n c e .
8 You c a n a n s w e r.
9 THE WITNESS: I n ex t reme c i r c u m s t a n c e s t o s a v e
10 l i v e s o r i f t h e r e i s a v i o l a t i o n o f l aw, t h e r e c o u l d be
11 an e x c e p t i o n . A n e x c e p t i o n must be c o n s i d e r e d on a
12 c a s e - b y - c a s e b a s i s .
13 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
14 Q On what b a s i s do you b e l i e v e t h a t t h e r e i s an
15 e x c e p t i o n t o t h e d i s c l o s u r e o f c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n
16 a s y o u ' v e d e s c r i b e d t h e e x c e p t i o n s ?
17 A Do you want me t o g ive you a s c e n a r i o ?
18 Q No , I ' d l i k e t o u n d e r s t a n d ho w y ou r e a c h e d
19 t h a t u n d e r s t a n d i n g .
20 Are you r e l y i n g , f o r example , on an y
21 p a r t i c u l a r document , p o l i c y , law?
22 A I t h i n k i t ' s p r e t t y much m o r a l o b l i g a t i o n s t o
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:j
!
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1 an o a t h t h a t you t a k e t o t h e peop l e t h a t y o u ' r e sworn
2 t o p r o t e c t .
3 Q L et me have yo u t ake a l o o k a t what w e ' l l mark
4 a s E x h i b i t 3.
5 ( E x h i b i t 3 wa s marked by t h e
6 r e p o r t e r f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )
7 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
8 Q Have y ou had a chance t o t ake a l ook a t
9 E x h i b i t 3?
10 A Yes, I ' v e g l a n c e d o v e r i t .
11 Q Do y ou r e c o g n i z e E x h i b i t 3?
12 A I r e c o g n i z e some o f t h e t e rmin o l ogy, b u t i n a
13 v e r b a t i m , I do n o t .
14 I f t h e r e t h i s wa s someth ing t h a t I had t o r e a d
15 and s i g n a s a c o n d i t i o n o f employment , t h a t ' s a good
16 p o s s i b i l i t y .
17 Q When you s a y t h a t you r ecogn ize some o f t h e
18 t e rmino logy, w h a t t e r m i n o l o g y do you r e c o g n i z e ?
19 A C l a s s i f i e d i n fo rma t ion p e r t a i n i n g t o m i s s i o n s ,
20 p roposed m i s s i o n s , o p e r a t i o n o r d e r s , t eam l e a d e r ,
21 c o n t i n g e n c y p l a n s , r u l e s o f engagement , c o u n t r y
22 c l e a r a n c e messages , j o i n t t r a i n i n g p l a n s an d l e s s o n
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1 p l a n s .
2 I d o n ' t know what S a r a h - L i t e message i s .
3 Q An y o t h e r t e rmin o logy t h a t y ou r e c o g n i z e ?
4 A I s e e s e n s i t i v e i n f o r m a t i o n on a l m o s t e v e r y
5 p a g e .
6 Q I s h o u l d c l a r i f y f o r t h e r e c o r d t h a t t h e
7 document t h a t y o u ' r e l o o k i n g a t i s an e x c e r p t o f a
8 l a r g e r document i n t h a t t h i s i s S e c t i o n 1 . 11 2 , Pages 23
9 t o 2 5 .
10 MR. NOONE: Ca n I j u s t g e t you t o c l a r i f y ,
11 t h e r e i s n o t h i n g i n h e r e r e d a c t e d ? T h i s i s j u s t a
12 p o r t i o n f rom a l a r g e r document?
13 I s t h a t f a i r t o s a y ?
14 MS. CALAGUAS: Yes. There a r e no r e d a c t i o n s
15 w i t h i n t h i s c u r r e n t document t h a t ' s i d e n t i f i e d as
16 E x h i b i t 3 .
17 Q Were t h e r e an y o t h e r t e r m i n o l o g i e s t h a t yo u
18 r e c o g n i z e i n t h i s document?
19 A I ' l l t e l l you wha t I d o n ' t r e c o g n i z e . Would
20 t h a t b e s u f f i c i e n t ?
21 Q L e t me t r y a n o t h e r q u e s t i o n .
22 A S u r e . I t ' s p r e t t y l o n g . I ' l l go t h rou gh t h e 1
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1 whole t h i n g , if y o u ' d l i k e .
2 Q We l l , I would l i k e you t o make s u r e t h a t
3 you 've r e v i e w e d t h e document b e f o r e a n s w e r i n g my
4 q u e s t i o n s .
5 B ut l e t me a sk you a q u e s t i o n f i r s t an d t hen
6 g i v e y ou a chance t o r e v i e w it .
7 A C e r t a i n l y .
8 Q With in t h i s document , do y ou r e c o g n i z e an y
9 d e s c r i p t i o n o f what we have been t a l k i n g a bo u t a s y o u r
10 FAM s c h e d u l e ?
11 MR. NOONE: Ca n I j u s t g e t you t o c l a r i f y ,
12 E i l e e n , t h a t you r q u e s t i o n i n t e r m s o f " r e c o g n i z e , " a r e
13 you say ing h a s he e v e r seen t h i s p a r t i c u l a r document
14 b e f o r e o r h as he e v e r s een th e p o r t i o n s i n t h i s
15 document b e f o r e ?
16 Are y ou say ing h as he e v e r hea rd t h e s e t e r m s
17 b e f o r e ?
18 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
19 Q I 'm a s k i n g i f , w i t h i n t h i s document , you
20 r e c o g n i z e an y d e s c r i p t i o n o f an FAM s chedu l e?
21 A I ' l l j u s t go down t h e l i s t f o r you , t h e n .
22 I ' m n o t s u r e what " m i s s i o n app r ov a l " means o r
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1 " p r o p o s e d m i s s i o n . "
2 Q I want t o yo u t r y t o answer my q u e s t i o n , and
3 i t ' s g o i n g t o r e q u i r e you t o r e v i e w t h e document . So,
4 t a k e y o u r t i m e .
5 A Okay.
6 Q B ut I 'm a s k i n g t o you r e v i e w t h e document an d
7 l e t me know if i n r e v i ewi ng t h i s document , you s e e a
8 d e s c r i p t i o n o f what we have been t a l k i n g a b o u t a s b e i n g
9 a FAM s c h e d u l e .
10 MR. NOONE: J u s t so i t ' s c l e a r , y o u r q u e s t i o n
11 i s , does he s e e i t now, n o t w h e t h e r he remembers s e e i n g
12 i t b a c k a t a c e r t a i n p o i n t ?
13 MS. CALAGUAS: Yeah. I 'm a s k i n g if h e c a n
14 s p o t i t f o r me now.
15 MR. NOONE: Okay.
16 THE WITNESS: C o n t i n g e n c y p l a n s , r u l e s o f
17 e n g a g e m e n t , j o i n t t r a i n i n g p l a n s and l e s s o n p l a n e s ,
18 w h i c h c o n c e r n t a c t i c a l p r o c e d u r e s . Numbers o f F e d e r a l
19 A i r M a r s h a l s , FAM t a c t i c s . Names o f i n d i v i d u a l FAMS,
20 team s i z e and c e l l - - s o r r y , t eam and c e l l s i z e .
21 MR. NOONE: I ' m going t o i n t e r r u p t t h e n an d
22 make s u r e t h a t you u n d e r s t a n d t h e q u e s t i o n t h a t ' s b e i n g
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 a sked .
2 Sh e a ske d i f you r e c o g n i z e i s s u e s d e a l i n g wi th
3 schedu l ing o r s c h e d u l e s .
4 THE WITNESS: (Nods he ad . )
5 S p e c i f i c a i r c a r r i e r s f lown.
6 MS. CALAGUAS: I shou l d j u s t r e f l e c t f o r t h e
7 r e c o r d , t h a t you nodded i n r e spo ns e t o y ou r a t t o r n e y ' s
8 q u e s t i o n .
9 Q I d o n ' t t h i n k I gave you t h a t i n s t r u c t i o n , Mr .
10 MacLean, t h a t i t ' s i m p o r t a n t i n t h i s proceed ing t h a t
11 y ou r r e s p o n s e s a r e v e r b a l . O t h e r w i s e , o u r d e p o s i t i o n
12 r e p o r t e r c a n ' t t a k e down w h a t ' s be ing s a i d .
13 A U n d e r s t o o d . I d id nod t o my a t t o r n e y .
14 Q Thank y o u .
15 So, I i n t e r r u p t e d you a t s p e c i f i c a i r c a r r i e r s
16 f lown?
17 A S e a t i n g a s s ig nm en t s , i n d i v i d u a l FAM t r a v e l
18 i t i n e r a r y .
19 And t h a t ' s a l l I c an s e e a s f a r a s t o you r
20 q u e s t i o n s i n r e g a r d s t o FAM schedu l ing .Ii
21 Q So, yo u t e s t i f i e d e a r l i e r t h a t y ou b e l i e v e d
22 FAM s c h e d u l i n g t o be c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , c o r r e c t ?
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 A Yes .
2 Q So, e v e r y t h i n g t h a t y o u ' v e i d e n t i f i e d , t h e n ,
3 a s hav ing t o do w i t h FAM s c h e d u l i n g , you a l s o c o n s i d e r
4 t o be c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , c o r r e c t ?
5 A What I j u s t r e a d o f f o f he re?
6 Q Yes .
7 A L e t me be s p e c i f i c on what I c o n s i d e r - - would
8 you l i k e me t o b e s p e c i f i c on what I c o n s i d e r
9 c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n on t h i s document?
10 Q I s t h e r e a d i f f e r e n c e be tween w h a t y o u ' v e
11 i d e n t i f i e d an d what you c o n s i d e r t o be c l a s s i f i e d
12 i n f o r m a t i o n ?
13 A I b e l i e v e t h a t y o u r q u e s t i o n was, i s t h e r e
14 a n y t h i n g on t h e s e t h r e e p a g e s t h a t a r e r e l a t e d t o y o u r
15 p r i o r q u e s t i o n s o f FAM s c h e d u l i n g , c o r r e c t ?
16 Q Yes.
17 A I w i l l g l a d l y t e l l you wha t I c o n s i d e r i s a
18 c l a s s i f i e d n a t u r e on t h e t o p i c s on t h i s p a g e ,
19 s p e c i f i c a l l y .
20 Q Why d o n ' t you go a h e a d and do t h a t ?
21 A Okay. Team l e a d e r , A s s i s t a n t Team L e a d e r,
22 m i s s i o n i t i n e r a r y . Numbers o f F e d e r a l A i r Marsh a l s . I
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1 want t o be s p e c i f i c . Numbers o f A i r M a r s h a l s i n
2 r e l a t i o n t o ho w many a r e o p e r a t i n g on a s p e c i f i c
3 f l i g h t .
4 Q I s t h a t i n a d d i t i o n t o t h e numbers o f F e d e r a l
5 A ir M a r s h a l s ? I n o t h e r words , i s t h a t a s e p a r a t e i t em
6 t h a t y ou b e l i e v e t o b e c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ?
7 A I b e l i e v e t h e agency c o n s i d e r s t h e
8 o v e r a l l - - f i r s t o f a l l , I have no i d e a how many
11
9 F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s a r e employed , so I do n o t know ho w
10 many A ir M a r s h a l s a r e i n one g iv en o f f i c e .
11 A l l I know i s ho w many A i r M a r s h a l s a r e on my
12 g i v e n f l i g h t .
13 Q L e t me make s u r e t h a t you u n d e r s t a n d what I ' m
Ii14 a s k i n g you . l
15 I 'm a s k i n g you wha t you b e l i e v e i s c l a s s i f i e d
16 i n f o r m a t i o n .
17 Now, do yo u b e l i e v e t h a t t h e numbers o f
18 F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s i s c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ?
19 A On a s p e c i f i c a i r c r a f t , y e s .
20 Q No , I 'm n o t a s k i n g if i t ' s on a s p e c i f i c
21 a i r c r a f t . Bu t j u s t t h e numbers o f F e d e r a l A ir
22 M a r s h a l s , you b e l i e v e t h a t t o be c l a s s i f i e d
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 i n fo rma t ion?
Page 43 Il
2 A You need t o be more s p e c i f i c .
3 Q So , on ly if t h e r e i s a s p e c i f i c number o f A ir
4 Marsha l s , do you b e l i e v e t h a t t o be c l a s s i f i e d
5 i n fo rma t ion?
6 A S p e c i f i c number o f A i r Marsha ls i n where?
7 Q I s t h a t a d i f f e r e n c e t o you? I s t h a t what
8 makes i t c l a s s i f i e d i n fo rma t ion , if i t ' s t h e number o f
9 A ir M a r s h a l s t h a t ' s s p e c i f i c t o a p a r t i c u l a r a r e a ?
10 A I c a n ' t answer t h a t , beca us e I d o n ' t know how
11 many - - I d o n ' t know what y o u ' r e s p e c i f i c a l l y a s k i n g i n
12 a s f a r a s number of Fede ra l A i r M arsha l s .
13 I do no t know how many A ir M a r s h a l s a r e o r
14 have been employed t h ro ug hou t th e Uni t ed S t a t e s , and I
15 do n o t know how many A ir M a r s h a l s a r e i n one g i v e n
16 o f f i c e .
17 I on ly know how many A ir M a r s h a l s a r e on t he
18 f l i g h t t h a t I am d e s i g n a t e d t o p r o t e c t .
19 Q A l l r i g h t . I 'm no t a sk ing you , though,
20 w he the r you know t h e number o f F e d e r a l A ir M a r s h a l s a l l
21 t o g e t h e r o r a t a p a r t i c u l a r o f f i c e .
22 I 'm a s k i n g you whe t he r you t h i n k t h a t th e
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 number o f F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s i s c l a s s i f i e d
2 i n f o r m a t i o n .
3 With t h a t u n d e r s t a n d i n g , t h e n , i s t h e number
4 o f F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s a l l t o g e t h e r c l a s s i f i e d
5 i n f o r m a t i o n ?
6 A I n my v i e w p o i n t ?
7 Q I 'm a s k i n g a b o u t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g , y e s .
8 A I b e l i e v e i t i s c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n .
9 Q I t ' s c o n f i d e n t i a l , b u t n o t c l a s s i f i e d ,
10 c o r r e c t ?
11 A I b e l i e v e t h a t t h e amount o f A i r M a r s h a l s Ii
12 employed c u r r e n t l y i s c o n s i d e r e d c o n f i d e n t i a l
13 i n f o r m a t i o n .
14 Q How a b o u t t h e number o f A i r M a r s h a l s a t any
15 p a r t i c u l a r f i e l d o f f i c e ? Do you b e l i e v e t h a t number t o
16 be c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ?
17 A No, I do n o t .
18 Q Do yo u b e l i e v e i t t o b e c o n f i d e n t i a l
19 i n f o r m a t i o n ?
20 A Yes .
21 Q Th e number o f A i r M a r s h a l s on a p a r t i c u l a r
22 f l i g h t , do y ou c o n s i d e r t h a t t o b e c l a s s i f i e d
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 i n f o r m a t i o n ?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Do y ou c o n s i d e r i t t o be c o n f i d e n t i a l
4 i n f o r m a t i o n ?
5 A Yes . Anyth ing t h a t ' s c l a s s i f i e d - - w e l l , n o ,
6 s o m e t h i n g t h a t ' s c l a s s i f i e d i s c l a s s i f i e d . Yo u c a n ' t
7 c o n s i d e r i t c o n f i d e n t i a l i n my e x p e r i e n c e . I t ' s e i t h e r
8 c l a s s i f i e d o r c o n f i d e n t i a l .
9 C o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n c anno t b e c o n s i d e r e d
10 c l a s s i f i e d . An d I mean b y " c l a s s i f i e d , " I mean t h a t
11 i t ' s l a b e l e d "Sec re t " o r "Top S e c r e t . "
12 Q What a b o u t t h e o p p o s i t e ? I s c l a s s i f i e d
13 i n f o r m a t i o n c o n f i d e n t i a l i n y o u r mind?
14 A I d o n ' t know t h e e x a c t d e f i n i t i o n o f
15 " c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , " b u t I b e l i e v e t h a t i t i s
16 a - - i t must b e s a f e g u a r d e d a t a h i r e l e v e l t h a n
17 c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n .
18 C l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n sh ou ld b e s a f e g u a r d e d
19 a t a h i g h e r l e v e l t h a n c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n , b u t I
20 d o n ' t t h i n k one i s s u e can be l a b e l e d b o t h c o n f i d e n t i a l
21 and c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n .
22 I 'm assuming t h a t ' s wha t you want me t o
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1 answer.
2 Q No.
3 A I t l s one o r th e o t h e r .
4 Q We l l , I a s ked you i f i t wa s b o th?
5 A No . 1:j
6 Q By my q u e s t i o n , 11m no t a sk ing you w he the r
7 i t l s one o r t h e o t h e r . My q u e s t i o n i s w he the r i t l s
8 bo th a t t h i s p o i n t .
9 And what we a r e t a l k i n g abou t , t h e n , i s t h e
10 number o f F e d e r a l A i r Marsha ls on a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t .
11 A I b e l i e v e t h a t t o be c l a s s i f i e d i n fo rma t ion
12 t h a t must be h i g h l y sa f egua rded .
13 Q I n y o u r mind, i s c l a s s i f i e d i n fo rma t ion on ly
14 t o be c o n s i d e r e d c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n if i t l s l a b e l e d
15 a s "Sec re t " o r "Top S e c r e t ?
16 A I b e l i e v e c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n t o be
17 i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t cou ld r e s u l t i n s e r i o u s b o d i l y harm o r
18 l o s s e s o f l i f e .
19 But , g e n e r a l l y , i n my p a s t expe r i ence ,
20 any th ing t h a t l s been c l a s s i f i e d i s c o n s i d e r e d
21 c l a s s i f i e d m a t e r i a l i s e i t h e r l a b e l e d s e c r e t o r to p
22 s e c r e t .
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 Q So , i n o r d e r t o i d e n t i f y w h a t ' s c l a s s i f i e d
2 i n fo rma t ion , do yo u need a l a b e l on i t ?
3 A G e n e r a l l y, yes .
4 Q Are you say ing , t hen , t h e r e a r e t ime s where
5 you can i d e n t i f y any i n f o r m a t i o n i s c l a s s i f i e d i f i t ' s
6 n o t l a b e l e d as e i t h e r s e c r e t o r to p s e c r e t ?
7 A C o r r e c t . There a r e some t im es where - - t h e
8 agency can g e n e r a l l y c l a s s i f y eve ry th ing unde r one
9 s u b j e c t .
10 And I mean, t h e s u b j e c t of number of A ir
11 M a r s h a l s on an a i r c r a f t and t h e i r p o s i t i o n i s
12 c l a s s i f i e d i n fo rma t ion .
13 Q So , yo u know t h a t even though you d i d n ' t se e
14 an y document t h a t l a b e l e d t he number o f F e d e r a l A ir
15 Marshals on a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t as be ing c l a s s i f i e d ?
16 A When I a c c e p t e d t h i s p o s i t i o n , i t wa s unde r
17 t he n e c e s s i t y t h a t I had t o o b t a i n a top s e c r e t
18 c l e a r a n c e . In o r d e r t o ga in a top s e c r e t c l e a r a n c e , I
19 must know what th e i s t h e d i f f e r e n c e between something
20 t h a t i s c l a s s i f i e d and what i s n o t c l a s s i f i e d .
21 Q An d you know t h e d i f f e r e n c e between what i s
22 c l a s s i f i e d and n o t c l a s s i f i e d even i f t h a t i n fo rma t ion
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1 i s n o t l a b e l e d a s such?
2 A Not n e c e s s a r i l y .
3 Q B ut I t hough t you j u s t s a i d t h a t t o have a to p
4 s e c r e t c l e a r a n c e , you s h o u l d know t h e d i f f e r e n c e
5 be tween whe the r someth ing i s c l a s s i f i e d o r n o t
6 c l a s s i f i e d .
7 A Depending on who c o n s i d e r s t h e i n f o r m a t i o n
8 c l a s s i f i e d .
9 I f t h e agency c o n s i d e r s someth ing c l a s s i f i e d
10 and a s l a b e l e d i t so and I have no knowledge t h a t i t
11 h a s b e e n c l a s s i f i e d such a s t h e agency w a n t s t o
12 c l a s s i f y i t, t hen I w o n ' t have knowledge o f t h a t
13 c l a s s i f i c a t i o n .
14 I on ly know t h a t i f someth ing i s go i ng t o h u r t
15 o r k i l l p e o p l e o r r e s u l t i n m a j o r p r o p e r t y damage, I
16 c o n s i d e r t h a t t o b e c l a s s i f i e d .
17 Q How do you know t h a t t h e number o f F e d e r a l A ir
18 M a r s h a l s on a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t i s c l a s s i f i e d
19 i n fo rma t ion?
20 A Because i f t h a t i s known by a b ad e l e me n t ,
21 eve ry p e r s o n on t h a t a i r c r a f t i s s u b j e c t t o d e a t h o r
22 b o d i l y harm o r anybody e l s e on t h e ground r e s u l t i n g i n
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1 t h e a i r c r a f t f a l l i n g on t h o s e p e o p l e . Such a s on
2 S e p t e m b e r 11 t h , 2001 , p e o p l e d i e d on t h e a i r c r a f t an d Ii
3 a l s o d i e d on t h e s u r f a c e .
4 Q Do you know w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e a g e n c y h a s
5 i d e n t i f i e d t h e number o f F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s on a
6 f l i g h t t o b e c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ?
7 A I b e l i e v e t h e y d i d .
8 Q W h a t ' s t h e b a s i s o f y o u r b e l i e f ?
9 A B e c a u s e i f t h e g e n e r a l p u b l i c knew, i f t h e b ad
10 e l e m e n t knew, t h o s e p e o p l e can b e k i l l e d , t h e a g e n t s
11 would b e k i l l e d , t h e p e o p l e on t h e a i r c r a f t c o u l d b e
12 k i l l e d , an d t h e p e o p l e on t h e s u r f a c e c o u l d b e k i l l e d .
13 I c o n s i d e r t h a t c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , an d I
14 would hope t h e agency would c o n s i d e r s o m e t h i n g t h a t••
15 s e r i o u s t o b e c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n .
;
16 Q B ut t o d a y, do you know w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e
17 agency h a s e v e r c o n s i d e r e d t h e number o f F e d e r a l A i r
18 M a r s h a l s on a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t t o b e c l a s s i f i e d
19 i n f o r m a t i o n ?
20 A I do n o t s p e c i f i c a l l y know i f anybody i n t h e
21 agency h a s made t h a t u t t e r a n c e o r h a s made a n y k i n d o f
22 p u b l i c a t i o n , b u t I hope t h e y h a v e .
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Page 50 I1 Q L e t me h a v e you t a k e a l o o k a t w h a t ' s l i s t e d
2 t h e r e on t h e s e c o n d page o f t h i s document a s
3 " I n d i v i d u a l FAM T r a v e l i t i n e r a r i e s . "
4 W h a t ' s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f what t h a t
5 d e s c r i b e s ?
6 A F l i g h t numbers , s e a t p o s i t i o n s .
7 Q A n y t h i n g e l s e ?
8 A No .
9 Q When you s a y " f l i g h t n u m b e r s , " what do y o u
10 mean by t h a t ?
11 A The f l i g h t number d e s i g n a t e d f o r t h a t a i r c r a f t
12 o r t h e f l i g h t f o r t h a t - - t h e m i s s i o n f o r t h a t I:
13 a i r c r a f t .
14 Q So, w h e t h e r o r n o t a F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l w i l l
15 b e on a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t ?
:16 A On t h a t g i v e n f l i g h t number.
17 F o r i n s t a n c e , you h a v e U n i t e d A i r l i n e s , F l i g h t
18 161 i s l e a v i n g f rom Te r m i n a l 6, Gate 68, f o r B o s t o n .
19 T h a t ' s what I mean by t h e f l i g h t number d e s i g n a t i n g
20 t h a t a i r c r a f t an d t h e m i s s i o n t h a t i t ' s g o i n g t o f l y .
21 Because , I b e l i e v e t h a t somet imes t h e f l i g h t
22 numbers c h a n g e , d e p e n d i n g on where t h e f l i g h t i s f l y i n g
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1 t o .
2 Q L e t me a s k you t h i s q u e s t i o n f i r s t , t h e n .
3 FAM t r a v e l i t i n e r a r i e s , do yo u c o n s i d e r t h a t
4 t o b e c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ?
5 A I f i t l i s t s t h e i r f l i g h t number and d a t e an d I:
6 t i m e and s e a t p o s i t i o n , y e s .
7 I f i t ' s v e r y g e n e r a l o f j u s t , you know, what
8 d ay t h e y ' r e f l y i n g on - - I c o n s i d e r t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n t o
9 become c l a s s i f i e d t h e more s p e c i f i c i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t ' s
10 i n v o l v e d .
11 Q Okay.
12 A Such a s t e r m i n a l number, s e c u r i t y c h e c k p o i n t
13 a r e a . The c l o s e r t h a t you g e t f o r b e i n g s p e c i f i c t o
14 where t h e A i r M a r s h a l i s s i t t i n g on t h e a i r c r a f t , I
15 b e l i e v e t h a t t o be - - t o go t o a h i g h e r l e v e l o fI:!)
16 c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n .
17 Q L e t me go back t o my q u e s t i o n , t h e n , a b o u t i18 what you mean b y f l i g h t numbers .
Ii19 A c c o r d i n g t o you , f l i g h t numbers ca n b e
20 c o n s i d e r e d c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , c o r r e c t ?
21 A I f g i v e n w i t h a s p e c i f i c d a t e and t i m e .
F l i g h t numbers change d a i l y , h o u r l y. I t h a s Ii
~ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
22
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1 t o be s p e c i f i c t o a t ime and d a t e .
2 Q At t h e a i r p o r t when you s ee t h e m o n i t o r s t h a t
3 i n d i c a t e t h e f l i g h t numbers , t h e g a t e s t h e y ' r e a t ,
4 w h e t h e r a f l i g h t ' s on t ime o r n o t , you d o n ' t c o n s i d e r
5 t h a t t o be c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , do you?
6 A No .
7 Q Bu t t h e r e a r e f l i g h t numbers l i s t e d on t h a tI ~
8 moni to r, c o r r e c t ?
9 A C o r r e c t .
10 Q So, w h a t ' s t h e d i f f e r e n c e be tween w h a t ' s
11 c o n t a i n e d i n t h a t t e l e v i s i o n m o n i t o r t h a n what you
12 c o n s i d e r t o b e c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n w i t h r e s p e c t t o
13 f l i g h t numbers?
14 A I f you a s s o c i a t e A i r M a r s h a l s a r e go in g t o b e
15 on t h a t f l i g h t .
16 Q So, t h a t ' s t h e d i f f e r e n c e .
17 I f an A ir M a r s h a l i s g o i n g t o b e on a
18 p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t an d you know t h e f l i g h t number, you
19 c o n s i d e r t h a t t o b e c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ?
20 A Yes.
21 MR. NOONE: E i l e e n , c an I j u s t i n s e r t a n
22 o b j e c t i o n t o a l l t h e s e q u e s t i o n s i n s o f a r as t h e y d e a l
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1 w i t h c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n r a t h e r t han what t h e i s s u e
2 h e r e i s , which i s s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .
3 I j u s t want t o make t h a t s t a n d i n g o b j e c t i o n
4 no ted .
5 MS . CALAGUAS: T h a t ' s on t h e r e c o r d .
6 Q So, wi th r e s p e c t t o f l i g h t numbers t h a t ' s what
7 y ou c o n s i d e r t o b e a p a r t o f t r a v e l i t i n e r a r i e s ,
8 c o r r e c t ?
9 A I f i t ' s s p e c i f i e d t h a t t h e A ir Marsha l i s
10 g o i n g t o be on t h a t g i v e n f l i g h t and f l i g h t number,
11 y e s .
12 Q W h a t ' s a n RON m i s s i o n ?
13 A "Remain o v e r n i g h t . " T h a t ' s when an A ir
14 M a r s h a l i s s c h e d u l e d t o remain o v e r n i g h t be ca use t h e r e
15 i s n o t enough - - t h e r e a r e to o many f l y i n g h ou r s i n t h e
16 day.
17 T h e r e f o r e , t h e A ir M a r s h a l must g e t h i s r e s t ,
18 b ed r e s t b e f o r e go i ng on a ne w miss ion .
19 Q Are RON m i s s i o n s , t h e n , j u s t one t y p e o f
20 miss ion t h a t a F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l f l i e s ?
21 A No, an R-O-N can b e c a u s e d by s e v e r a l c a s e
22 s c e n a r i o s .
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Page 54
1 Q How does an RON m i s s i o n e f f e c t a FAM's
2 s chedu l e?
3 A I f I 'm on a RON m i s s i o n , I can p r e d i c t t h a t I
4 am go ing t o have a two-day o r more l e n g t h o f a miss ion .
5 T h e r e f o r e , I n e e d t o pack a bag wi th e x t r a o v e r n i g h t
6 t o i l e t r i e s and c l o t h i n g , e t c e t e r a .
7 An A ir M a r s h a l a l s o n e e d s t o p r e p a r e f o r a RON
8 miss ion by s e c u r i n g a h o t e l r e s e r v a t i o n f o r a g iven
9 a r e a t h a t t h e y ' r e s ch ed u l ed t o RON a t .
10 Q I f an RON m i s s i o n , does t h a t i n d i c a t e t o you
11 what t ype o f f l i g h t t h a t a F e d e r a l A i r Marsha l would be
12 on i n t e r m s o f t h e d u r a t i o n o f t h e f l i g h t ?
13 A No .
14 Q Does i t g ive you any i n f o r m a t i o n a b o u t t h e
15 t y p e o f f l i g h t t h a t a F e d e r a l A ir M a r s h a l would b e on
16 i f yo u knew t h e F e d e r a l A i r Marsha l wa s on a r e m a i n
17 o v e r n i g h t miss ion?
18 A S p e c i f i c a l l y , no . I c o u l d make a - - I c o u l d
19 g u e s s t h a t i t ' s go in g t o be a v e r y l o n g f l i g h t o r i t
20 c o u l d be a v e r y l ong day w i t h s e v e r a l l e g s .
21 Q So, g e n e r a l l y , i t w i l l g i v e you i n f o r m a t i o n
22 a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e FAM i s on a l o n g f l i g h t o r h as h ad a
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 long day, meaning t h a t t h e y ' v e f lown b u t on s h o r t e r
2 segments?
3 MR. NOONE: I 'm g o i ng t o o b j e c t t o a
4 m i s c h a r a c t e r i z a t i o n , b u t go ahead and answer.
5 THE WITNESS: Or - - w e l l , you a r e c o r r e c t , th e
6 A ir Marsha l i s f l y i n g away from h i s home, h i s home
7 o f f i c e .
8 The f u r t h e r an A ir Marsha l f l i e s away from h i s
9 home o f f i c e w i l l u s u a l l y end up having t h a t A i r Marsha l
10 do an RON a t a h o t e l .
11 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
12 Q So , how f a r away do you have t o be from you r
13 home o f f i c e b e f o r e you c o n s i d e r y o u r s e l f t o be on an
14 RON miss ion?
15 A I am go ing t o t ake a wi ld guess - -
16 MR. NOONE: I 'm g o i ng to i n s t r u c t you n o t t o
17 gues s .
18 MS. CALAGUAS: I d o n ' t want you t o g u e s s .
19 Q I n you r e x p e r i e n c e .
20 A In my expe r i ence?
21 Q Ca n you answer t h a t q u e s t i o n ?
22 A I f I f l y a minimum o f f o u r hou r s away from my
Page 55j1
1~J
~
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Page 56
1 home o f f i c e , i t ' s probab ly going to end up i n an
2 ove rn igh t mi s s ion , f ou r hou r s or more.
3 Q When you s a y f l y fou r ho u r s , t h a t means you r
4 f l i g h t i s f o u r hou r s long?
5 A Yes, from l e av ing th e ground and l and ing a t
6 i t s nex t d e s t i n a t i o n .
7 Q Why would t h a t be a "remain ove rn igh t "
8 miss ion?
9 A A ir Marshals a r e g e n e r a l l y - - t h e r e a r e
10 e x c e p t i o n s - - b u t f o r d om es t i c , and t h i s i s g o i n g t o be
11 i s e n s i t i v e i s s u e he re a s f a r a s i t m i g h t be cons ide red
12 c l a s s i f i e d o r c o n f i d e n t i a l .
13 MR. NOONE: Well , I 'm go in g t o w a i t u n t i l
14 E i l e e n i n s t r u c t s you to go ahead and answer i t anyway.
15 Do you want him t o answer i t anyway?
16 MS. CALAGUAS: Could you r ead b a c k h i s answer
17 f o r me, p l e a s e ?
18 (Whereupon, the p end in g q u e s t i o n wa s r ead i n t o
19 t h e r eco rd by the r e p o r t e r as fo l l ows :
20 "Q A ir Marshals a r e g e n e r a l l y - - t h e r e a r e
21 e x c e p t i o n s - - b u t f o r domest ic - - and t h i s i s go ing t o
22 be a s e n s i t i v e i s s u e he re a s f a r a s i t m i g h t be
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 c o n s i d e r e d c l a s s i f i e d o r c o n f i d e n t i a l . " )
2 MS. CALAGUAS:Go
a h e a d and a n s w e r t h i s .
3 Can yo u mark t h i s s e c t i o n , p l e a s e ?
4 (Con t inued im me d ia t e ly i n CONFIDENTIAL
5 s e s s i o n . )
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
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1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 (THIS SECTION MARKED CONFIDENTIAL)
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
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Page 59
1 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
2 Q Mr . MacLean, yo u a r e unde r o a t h .
3 Dur ing t h e b r e a k , d i d y ou t a l k a b o u t y o u r
4 t e s t i m o n y a t a l l w i t h anyone?
5 A With my a t t o r n e y o n l y.
6 Q We've been t a l k i n g a b o u t RON m i s s i o n s . I
7 d i d n ' t a s k you what y o u r d e f i n i t i o n o f a m i s s i o n i s .
8 L e t ' s j u s t have t h a t f o r t h e r e c o r d , t h e word
9 "mi s s ion" w i t h r e s p e c t t o F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s ?
10 A A m i s s i o n i s a f l i g h t - - an A i r Ma rs ha l
11 m i s s i o n i s a f l i g h t t h a t i s b e i n g p r o t e c t e d by A i r
12 M a r s h a l s .
13 Q I s t h e t e rm "RON m i s s i o n " u s e d , t o y o u r
14 knowledge , i n an y o t h e r agency?
15 A Ye s .
16 Q What o t h e r a g e n c i e s , t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t yo u
17 know?
18 A When I wa s i n t h e A i r F o r c e , we r e f e r r e d t o
19 m i s s i o n s t h a t we ha d t o spend t h e n i g h t o u t i n t h e
20 f i e l d a s a "Remain o v e r n i g h t . " T h a t ' s i t .
i
11I'
21 Q W h a t ' s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e t e rm
22 " i " i h FAMS?
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Page 60
1 A Opera t ions i s a terminology used f o r an
2 a c t u a l - - f o r a c t u a l miss ions t h a t a re a i r c r a f t o r
3 f l i g h t s t h a t an A ir Marshal i s p r o - a c t i v e l y p r o t e c t i n g .
4 Anything e l s e would be a d m i n i s t r a t i v e i s s u e s
5 o r t r a i n i n g o p e r a t i o n s .
6 Q Would you c o n s i d e r i t to be a FAM o p e r a t i o n i f
7 a FAM wa s n o t a c t u a l l y on th e f l i g h t - - I shou ld say a
8 f l i g h t ?
9 A Rephrase t h a t .
10 Q Did you c o n s i d e r t h a t to be a FAM o p e r a t i o n as
11 y o u ' v e j u s t d e f i n e d i t ?
12 A N o.
13 Q So , when you say t h a t a FAM i s p r o - a c t i v e l y
14 p r o t e c t i n g a f l i g h t , does t h a t mean t h a t a FAM has t o
15 be on th e f l i g h t ?
16 A C o r r e c t .
17 Q What ' s you r under s t and ing o f th e te rm
18 "deployment" wi th r e s p e c t t o FAMs?
19 A An A ir Marshal be ing d e s i g n a t e d t o p r o t e c t an
20 a i r c r a f t . Ii
21 Q Again, t o p r o t e c t t h e a i r c r a f t , does t h e A ir
22 Marshal h to be i t ?
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1 A Yes .
2 Q An d i f an A ir Marsha l i s n o t on t h e f l i g h t , do
3 you c o n s i d e r t h a t t o be a deployment?
4 A No .
5 Q L e t me have you t ake a look a t what w e ' l l mark
6 a s E x h i b i t 4 .
7 (Exh ib i t 4 wa s marked by t h e
8 r e p o r t e r f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )
9 TH E WITNESS: You want me t o r ev i ew t h i s ?
10 MS. CALAGUAS: P l e a s e .
11 THE WITNESS: I r ev i ewed i t .
12 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
13 Q Do you r ecogn ize E x h i b i t 4?
14 A No .
15 Q Have you e v e r seen E x h i b i t 4?
16 A I ' m s u r e I ' v e been t o l d t o r e a d i t , u n d e r s t a n d
17 i t , and s i g n an agreement t h a t I ' v e r e a d and ag reed t o
18 i t , b u t t h i s i s some t h i ng I d o n ' t r e c o g n i z e
19 immed ia t e ly.
20 Q I f you b e l i e v e t h a t a t some p o i n t y ou were
21 asked t o r ev i ew t h i s document, when would t h a t have
22 been?
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1 A Sometime a f t e r November 13 th o f 2002.
2 Q What ' s t h e s i g n i f i c a n c e o f t h a t d a t e t o you?
3 A T h a t ' s when t h i s document wa s p u t t o g e t h e r .
4 MR. NOONE: I 'm go ing to i n s t r u c t you on t h e
5 r e c o r d n o t t o g u e s s a t any o f y o u r answer s . Okay?
6 TH E WITNESS: Okay.
7 MS. CALAGUAS: L e t me have you t a k e a l ook a t
8 what w e ' l l mark a s E x h i b i t 5.
9 (Exh ib i t 5 wa s marked by t h e
10 r e p o r t e r f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )
11 THE WITNESS: I ' v e r ev i ew ed i t .
12 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
13 Q Do you r e c o g n i z e E x h i b i t 5?
14 A I b e l i e v e t h i s wa s a n o t h e r document t h a t I wa s
15 t o l d t o r e a d and s i g n as a c o n d i t i o n o f my employment,
16 and i t l ooks v e r y much l i k e t h e November 1 3 t h , 2002
17 v e r s i o n . 11
18 Q D id you e v e r have a copy o f w h a t ' s i n f r o n t o f
19 you t h a t ' s marked a s E x h i b i t 5?
20 A No, I do n o t have a copy, b u t I w i l l - - t h e r e
21 i s a p o s s i b i l i t y t h a t t h e r e i s one i n t h e f i l e t h a t you
22 h i d d ' i d d
[i
11
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1 Q Do you r e c o g n i z e t h i s document a s a document
2 t h a t wa s p r o d u c e d by you t o t h e agency i n r e s p o n s e t o
3 one o f i t s r e q u e s t s f o r p r o d u c t i o n o f documents?
4 A I f t h a t ' s what I p rodu ce d , t h e n I d o n ' t
5 c o n t e s t t h a t .
6 Q S o, a t some p o i n t d i d yo u have t h i s document
7 i n y o u r p o s s e s s i o n , c o r r e c t ?
8 MR . NOONE: Or h i s a t t o r n e y s d i d . I ' m n o t
9 s u r e , E i l e e n , w h e t h e r i t wa s s o m e t h i n g we p r o d u c e d
10 w i t h o u t - - i n d e p e n d e n t o f R obe r t g i v i n g i t t o u s . I t
11 m i g h t h a v e b e e n s o m e t h i n g t h a t we g e n e r a t e d . I ' m n o t
12 s u r e .
13 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
14 Q I 'm a s k i n g y o u , Mr. MacLean, i f you e v e r h ad a
15 document o f a copy o f t h i s document i n y o u r p o s s e s s i o n
16 a t a ny t ime?
17 MR. NOONE: I ' l l j u s t r e p e a t t h e i n s t r u c t i o n
18 t h r o u g h o u t .
19 D o n ' t gues s , i f you d o n ' t know. I ' m n o t
20 t r y i n g t o be d i f f i c u l t , b u t d o n ' t g u e s s .
21 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
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1 A Yes, I have been g i v e n a copy o f t h e s e
2 e x h i b i t s .
3 Q E x h i b i t 5 h a s a d i f f e r e n t d a t e t han E x h i b i t 4
4 a s r e f l e c t e d i n t h e to p r i g h t - h a n d c o r n e r .
5 A I s e e .
6 Q Do you know t h e s i g n i f i c a n c e o f t h a t d a t e ?
7 A No , I d o n ' t .
8 Q Do you know i f you r e c e i v e d a c o p y o f t h i s
9 document a f t e r t h a t d a t e ?
10 A Yes, I r e c e i v e d a copy o f t h i s document .
11 Q You d o n ' t know whe th e r o r n o t you r e c e i v e d a
12 copy o f t h a t document b e f o r e t h a t d a t e , though?
13 A I do n o t know.
14 Q At some p o i n t , y ou do r e c a l l hav ing r e a d t h e
15 document , t h o u g h ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
16 A C o r r e c t .
17 Q Did you h a v e a n y q u e s t i o n s a b o u t t h e document
18 t h a t you r e a d ?
19 A No.
20 Q When you r e a d t h e document , wa s i t d u r i n g y o u r
21 employment w i t h TSA?
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1 TSA, I 'm n o t s u r e .
.2 Q Yes , I s h o u l d c l a r i f y my q u e s t i o n t o i n c l u d e
3 t h e t ime when y o u w e r e w i t h ICE.
4 So, w h i l e you d o n ' t remember e x a c t l y when you
5 r e a d t h e document , you know i t wa s w h i l e you w e r e a
6 F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l , c o r r e c t ?
7 A C o r r e c t .
8 Q L e t ' s me h a v e you t a k e a l o o k a t w h a t w e ' l l
9 mark a s E x h i b i t 6.
10 ( E x h i b i t 6 wa s m a r k e d b y t h e
11 r e p o r t e r f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )
12 THE WITNESS: Okay, I ' v e r e v i e w e d i t .
13 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
14 Q Do you r e c o g n i z e t h e document?
15 A Yes , I do.
16 Q I s y o u r s i g n a t u r e on t h e l a s t p a g e o f t h a t
17 document?
18 A Yes, i t i s .
19 Q D id you h a v e a ny q u e s t i o n s a b o u t t h i s document
20 a t t h e t i m e t h a t yo u s i g n e d i t ?
21 A No .
22 Q Who's t h e s i g n a t u r e o f y o u r s u p e r v i s o r on t h i s
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 document?
2 AI 'm go ing
t ogues s - - can
Igues s on t h i s one?
3 Q I ' l l t ake a guess a t t h i s p o i n t .
4 A I t h i n k i t ' s Mickey Mars ig l i ano . I 'm p r e t t y
5 s u r e i t wa s him. That l ooks l i k e a Mickey.
6 Q Mr . M a r s i g l i a n o wa s your s u p e r v i s o r a t t h a t
7 t ime t h rough 1963?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Did you have any o t h e r s u p e r v i s o r s d u r i n g t h i s
10 t ime?
11 A I d o n ' t t h i n k so . I t ' s a p o s s i b i l i t y t h a t he
12 took a l e a v e o f absence i n between and a n o t h e r
13 s u p e r v i s o r wa s a c t i n g i n h i s p l a c e .
14 Q L e t me have you t a k e a look a t what w e ' l l mark
15 as E x h i b i t 7.
16 ( E x h i b i t 7 wa s marked by th e
17 r e p o r t e r f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )
18 THE WITNESS: I have r ev i ewed i t . Thi s l ooks
19 l i k e a n o t h e r from Mickey Mars ig l i ano .
20 BY MS . CALAGUAS:
21 Q An d t h a t ' s a l s o your s i g n a t u r e b o t h unde r t h e
22 Performance Agreement I n i t i a t i o n and a l s o t h e
II
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1 Performance Assessment?
2 A C o r r e c t .
3 Q An d d u r i n g bo th t imes t h a t you s i g n e d t h i s
4 document , d i d you unde r s t and i t s c o n t e n t ?
5 A Yes .
6 Q L e t me h a v e you t a k e a l ook a t E x h i b i t 8 .
7 (Exh ib i t 8 wa s marked by t h e
8 r e p o r t e r f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )
9 THE WITNESS: I have r e v i ew ed i t .
10 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
11 Q Again , i s t h a t your s i g n a t u r e t h e r e on t h e
12 l a s t p a g e ?
13 A C o r r e c t .
14 Q B o t h unde r t he Performance Agreement
15 I n i t i a t i o n a nd a l s o a t t h e A s s e s s m e n t ?
16 A Yes .
i-I
17 Q And who wa s y o u r s u p e r v i s o r ?
i18 A M a r s i g l i a n o . I;:
i
19 Q At t h e t im e t h a t you s i g n e d t h i s document , d i d
20 you have any q u e s t i o n a bo u t i t ?
21 A No .
22 Q When you f i r s t i d a t t h Vegas f i e l d
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1 o f f i c e , do you remember r e c e i v i n g an y t r a i n i n g ?
2 A Ye s .
3 Q Ca n yo u g e n e r a l l y d e s c r i b e t h e t r a i n i n g t h a t
4 you r e c e i v e d a t t h e t i m e t h a t y ou a r r i v e d i n Vegas?
5 A A d m i n i s t r a t i v e , o p e r a t i o n a l , f i r e a r m s .
6 Q Who gave you t h i s t r a i n i n g ?
7 A I do n o t remember.
8 Q Do you remember where you r e c e i v e d t h i s
9 t r a i n i n g ?
10 A I n a b u i l d i n g i n Las Vegas . I t c o u l d h a v e
11 b e e n e i t h e r t h e one on Va l l e y View o r t h e o t h e r on - - I
12 c a n ' t remember w h e r e t h e o t h e r one was . More t h a n
13 l i k e l y , i t was t h e one on Va l l e y View.
14 Q Was t h e r e anyone e l s e who r e c e i v e d t h i s
15 t r a i n i n g w i t h you?
16 A I do n o t remember.
17 Q Do y o u know f o r how l on g t h i s t r a i n i n g l a s t e d ?
18 A I do n o t remember.
19 Q I n t e rms o f t h e o p e r a t i o n a l a s p e c t s o f t h e
20 t r a i n i n g t h a t y ou r e c e i v e d , do you remember a n y
21 d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t FAM s c h e d u l e s ?
22 A I do n o t remember
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1 Q Do you remember any d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t s e n s i t i v e
2 s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n ?
3 A No, I do n o t .
4 Q Do you remember an y d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t
5 c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ?
6 A No , I do n o t . S p e c i f i c a l l y , I do n o t .
7 Q Do y ou remember any t r a i n i n g p r o v i d e d t o you
8 by Doug Hladky?
9 A H - a - l - - s o r r y , H - l - a - d - k - y .
10 Q Thank y o u . No p r o b l e m .
11 The t r a i n i n g t h a t you remember r e c e i v i n g from
12 Doug Hladky, when was t h a t ?
13 A Shou ld h a v e b een sometime i n e i t h e r l a t e 2001
14 o r e a r l y 2002.
15 Q G e n e r a l l y s p e a k i n g , what do you remember a b o u t
16 t h a t t r a i n i n g ?
17 A I d o n ' t remember. I t h i n k i t wa s j u s t m o s t l y
18 a g e n e r a l o r i e n t a t i o n , common s e n s e i s s u e s .
19 Q How l ong d i d t h a t t r a i n i n g l a s t ?
20 A P r o b a b l y an hour.
21 QDo
y ou r e c a l l where t h a t t r a i n i n g t o o k p l a c e ?
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1 View o f f i c e o r - - I 'm t r y i n g t o t h i n k where t h a t f i r s t
2 f a c i l i t y was , w h a t s t r e e t i t wa s on? Warm S p r i n g s ,
3 a n o t h e r b u i l d i n g on Warm Spr ings Road i n Las Vegas .
4 S o r r y, I have t o go t o th e bathroom.
5 MS. CALAGUAS: L e t ' s go o f f t h e r e c o r d .
6 (A b r e a k wa s t a k e n . )
7 MS. CALAGUAS: Back o n t h e r e c o r d .
8 Q Mr . MacLean, y ou u n d e r s t a n d y o u ' r e s t i l l u n d e r
9 o a t h , c o r r e c t ?
10 A Yes , I do .
11 Q The t r a i n i n g t h a t yo u r e c a l l g i v e n by Doug
12 H l a d k y, i s t h i s t r a i n i n g s e p a r a t e and a p a r t f rom t h e
13 t r a i n i n g t h a t you r e c e i v e d when f i r s t a r r i v i n g i n Las
14 Vegas?
15 A I d o n ' t remember.
16 Q When you s a y t h a t yo u r e c e i v e d
17 common - - t r a i n i n g a b o u t common s e n s e i s s u e s from Doug
18 Hladky, c a n y ou be more s p e c i f i c a b o u t what t h a t would
19 be ?
20 A Yes. Tr a n s m i t t i n g t h e a i r p o r t , b y p a s s i n g
21 c h e c k p o i n t s e c u r i t y l a n e s , ho w t o b o a r d a i r c r a f t , h o t e l
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1 t h e a i r l i n e emp loyees . Things o f t h a t n a t u r e .
2 Q You t a l k e d a b o u t a l l o f t h i s i n one ho u r?
3 A Yes .
4 Q Do you remember an y d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t
5 s c h e d u l e s , FAM s c h e d u l e s ?
6 A N o .
7 Q So , no w you d o n ' t r e c a l l any d i s c u s s i o n a bou t
8 FAM s c h e d u l e s ?
9 A S c h e d u l i n g was a lways an i s s u e , 24 h o u r s a
10 d a y, s even d a y s a week , bec au se i t wa s v e r y hodgepodge
11 a t t h a t t i m e .
12 I wa s t h e f i r s t , one o f t h e f i r s t A i r Mar sh a l s
13 d e p l o y e d . So , s c h e d u l i n g wa s v e r y h e c t i c an d v e r y
14 s c a t t e r e d , and s o , s c h e d u l i n g wa s a l w a y s a n i s s u e .
15 Q However h e c t i c and s c a t t e r e d y o u r s c h e d u l i n g
16 may h a v e been , d i d yo u have t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t your
17 s c h e d u l i n g wa s t o r ema in c o n f i d e n t i a l a t t h i s p e r i o d o f
18 t i m e ?
19 A Yes. I t wa s t o remain c o n f i d e n t i a l a s f a r a s
20 s p e c i f i c s , s p e c i f i c f l i g h t s , s p e c i f i c s e a t p o s i t i o n s ,
21 s p e c i f i c d e s t i n a t i o n s , s p e c i f i c o r i g i n s .
1P a g e 71 j
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1 you c o n s i d e r t h a t f a c t t o be c o n f i d e n t i a l ?
2 A I f I w a s n ' t on a f l i g h t - - I d o n ' t u n d e r s t a n d .
3 P l e a s e r e p h r a s e t h e q u e s t i o n . Could you make
4 i t more s p e c i f i c , p l e a s e ?
5 Q We l l , t h i s q u e s t i o n i s s p e c i f i c t o you.
6 I f you w e r e n ' t on a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t , d i d you
7 c o n s i d e r t h a t a f a c t t h a t ne eded t o be c o n f i d e n t i a l ?
8 A Depending on t h e s i t u a t i o n .
9 I f t h e r e was a s p e c i f i c t h r e a t on a n a i r c r a f t
10 an d I knew t h a t A ir Ma rsha l s were n o t t o p r o t e c t t h a t
11 a i r c r a f t , t h a t would be c o n s i d e r e d c o n f i d e n t i a l .
12 Q So t h a t I g e t t h i s s t r a i g h t , t hen , if you
13 knew - - i f t h e f a c t t h a t a F e d e r a l A i r Mar sha l w a s n ' t
14 on a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t , t h a t f a c t shou ld b e
15 c o n f i d e n t i a l ?
16 D id I g e t t h a t r igh t?
17 MR. NOONE: O b j e c t i o n .
18 THE WITNESS: Do I - -
19 MR. NOONE: A re you r e s t a t i n g what he s a i d ?
20 B e c a u s e i t ' s n o t ho w h e s a i d i t e a r l i e r .
!l
21 MS. CALAGUAS: I 'm a s k i n g him t o c o r r e c t me i f
22 I i
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1 THE WITNESS: I f I know t h a t t h e r e i s a
2 s p e c i f i c t h r e a t t o a g i v e n a i r c r a f t and I know t h a t
3 t h e r e a r e no A i r M a r s h a l s on t h a t a i r c r a f t , t h a t i s
4 c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n .
5 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
6 Q I f t h e r e i s no s p e c i f i c t h r e a t t o a g iv en
7 a i r c r a f t and t h e r e i s no F e d e r a l A ir M a r s h a l on t h a t
8 f l i g h t and t h a t f a c t i s known t h a t t h e r e i s no F e d e r a l
9 A i r M a r s h a l on t h a t f l i g h t , do you c o n s i d e r t h a t t o b e
10 c o n f i d e n t i a l i n fo rma t io n?
11 A Yes, I d o .
12 Q So, does i t m a t t e r w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e r e i s a
13 s p e c i f i c t h r e a t t o a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t a s t o w h e t h e r o r
14 n o t - -
15 A I t h o u g h t if i t p e r t a i n e d t o me b e i n g on t h a t
16 f l i g h t o r n o t .
17 I f y o u ' r e s p e a k i n g i n g e n e r a l t e r m s ?
18 Q Yo u ' r e r i g h t , a t one p o i n t we were s p e c i f i c t o
19 you a nd t h en we s t a r t e d s p e a k i n g i n g e n e r a l t e rm s . So,
20 maybe we n e e d t o c l a r i f y t h a t .
21 We ' r e t a l k i n g i n g e n e r a l t e r m s now. Okay?
22 A Yes .
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1 Q So , i f t h e r e i s no s p e c i f i c t h r e a t t o a
2 p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t and t h e r e i s no Fede r a l A ir Marsha l
3 on t h a t f l i g h t , whether i t ' s yo u o r anyone e l s e , i s th e
4 f a c t t h a t t h e r e i s no Fede ra l A i r Marsha l on t h a t
5 f l i g h t c o n s i d e r e d c o n f i d e n t i a l i n fo rma t ion i n your
6 mind?
7 A A b s o l u t e l y.
8 Q Why?
9 A I t ' s impor t an t t o know t h a t no t on ly shou ld
10 th e bad e l e m e n t b e gues s ing w h e t h e r t h e r e i s an A ir
11 Marsha l on t h e p l a n e , t h e y s h o u l d n ' t have any knowledge
12 o f whether t h e r e i s no A ir Marsha l on t h a t p l a n e .
13 I f t h e bad e l e m e n t knows t h e r e a r e no A ir
14 Marsha ls on t h a t p l a n e , th e bad e l e m e n t i s g o ing t o
15 want t o b e on t h a t p lane .
16 Q So, w h a t ' s your unde r s t and ing o f " s e n s i t i v e
17 s e c u r i t y i n fo rma t ion"? What i s i t ?
18 A S e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n fo rma t ion i s a t e rm t h a t
19 wa s developed by s p e c i f i c a l l y th e Tr a n s p o r t a t i o n
20 S e c u r i t y A d m i n i s t r a t i o n pos t -Sep t e mb e r 11 th , 2001 . And
21 i t ' s a v e r y l o o s e l y used t e rm.
22 I ' v e s e e n t h e term l a b e l e d on going away
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Page 75
1 p a r t i e s , c o f f e e g e t - t o g e t h e r s , s p e c i f i c moral and
2 w e l f a r e e v e n t s .
3 So, t h a t ' s wh y I am g e n e r a l l y con fused as t o
4 what t h e agency c o n s i d e r s as s e n s i t i v e " s e c u r i t y
5 i n f o r m a t i o n , " quo te , unquo te , on t h a t .
6 P r i o r t o my employment as a F e d e r a l A i r
7 Marsha l , I n e v e r h e a r d o f t h e t e rm " s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y
8 i n f o r m a t i o n . "
9 Q When you s ay t h a t s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y
10 i n f o r m a t i o n i s used wi th r e s p e c t t o g o i n g away p a r t i e s
11 o r o t h e r mora l e v e n t s , I d o n ' t u n d e r s t a n d t h a t .
12 Are you t a l k i n g abou t i f t h e r e i s an
13 i n v i t a t i o n t o an e v e n t l i k e t h a t ?
14 A C o r r e c t . In an e - m a i l , i t wa s s e n t i n an
15 e - m a i l and i t wa s l a b e l e d " S e n s i t i v e S e c u r i t y
16 I n f o r m a t i o n . "
17 Q D id you hand le s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n
18 whi l e a s a F e d e r a l A ir Marshal?
19 A The agency d i d p r o v i d e me documents t h a t were
20 l a b e l e d " S e n s i t i v e S e c u r i t y I n f o r m a t i o n . "
21 Q Do you c o n s i d e r a FAM's s c h e d u l e t o be
22 s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n fo rma t ion?
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Page 76
1 A I 'm s t i l l con fu se d a s t o w h a t i s c o n s i d e r e d
2 s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n and what i s n o t
3 c o n s i d e r e d s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .
4 T h e r e f o r e , I 'm n o t c o n f i d e n t i n t r y i n g t o
5 d e s c r i b e t o y o u w h a t I b e l i e v e i s s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y
6 i n f o r m a t i o n o r what i s n o t .
7 I do know w h a t t h e a g e n c y g e n e r a l l y d o e s o r
8 does n o t l a b e l s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .
9 B ut b y t h e i r a c t i o n s , I s t i l l do n o t know w h a t
10 a r e t h e i r g u i d e l i n e s f o r l a b e l i n g o r c l a s s i f y i n g
11 s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .
12 Q Ha d you e v e r s e e n y o u r s c h e d u l e p r i n t e d o u t ?
13 A Yes .
14 Q An d i n t h a t p r i n t o u t o f y o u r s c h e d u l e , was i t
15 l a b e l e d a s a s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n ?
16 A Yes .
17 Q A t an y p o i n t , h ad you e v e r s e e n a p r i n t o u t o f
18 y o u r s c h e d u l e t h a t d i d n ' t c o n t a i n a l a b e l t h a t i t was
19 s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n ?
20 A I do n o t know.11·1
21 L e t me s t r i k e t h a t and s a y, y e s , I have
22 r e c e i v e d s c h e d u l e s t h a t were n o t l a b e l e d s e n s i t i v e
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1 s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .
2 Q But t h e d i f f e r e n c e i s , t h e s e were n o t y o u r
3 s c h e d u l e s ?
4 A The agency g e n e r a l l y l e f t o u r s c h e d u l e s o u t i n
5 t h e open . G e n e r a l employees i n t h e f i e l d o f f i c e h a d
6 a c c e s s to t h e s c h e d u l e s , i n c l u d i n g t h e j a n i t o r s .
7 So, t h a t wa s a n o t h e r r e a s o n wh y i t wa s
8 c o n f u s i n g a s t o what wa s c o n s i d e r e d s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y
9 i n f o r m a t i o n o r n o t .
10 Q So, you r e c a l l a t i m e where a FAMS s c h e d u l e ,
11 whe t he r i t ' s y o u r s c h e d u l e o r someone e l s e ' s , t h a t was
12 p r i n t e d o u t and n o t l a b e l e d a s s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y
13 i n f o r m a t i o n , c o r r e c t ?
14 A C o r r e c t .
15 Q Dur ing t h a t t i me when yo u saw t h e s c h e d u l e a nd
16 i t w a s n ' t l a b e l e d a s SS1, d i d you s t i l l have t h e
17 u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e s c h e d u l e n e e d e d t o r e m a i n
18 c o n f i d e n t i a l ?
19 A A b s o l u t e l y , an d s a f e g u a r d e d .
20 Q B ut d i d you know w h e t h e r o r n o t t h a t s c h e d u l e
I:
I:21 wa s c o n s i d e r e d t o be s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n
22 even though i n t h e p r i n t o u t o f t h a t s c h e d u l e i t w a s n ' t
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1 l a b e l e d a s s u c h ?
2A
I c o n s i d e r e di t
some t yp e o f p r o t e c t e d
3 i n f o r m a t i o n . W h e t h e r I knew i t was s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y
4 i n f o r m a t i o n , I w o u l d n ' t know.
5 Q By " p r o t e c t e d , " you t e s t i f i e d t h a t i t n e e d e d
6 t o b e s a f e g u a r d e d .
7 Would t h a t i n c l u d e , t h e n , n o t d i s c l o s i n g t h a t
8 s c h e d u l e t o a p e r s o n w i t h o u t a n e e d - t o - k n o w ?
9 A C o r r e c t . L e t me go back t o my e a r l i e r
10 s t a t e m e n t t h a t I made i n t h e d e p o s i t i o n , t h a t I
11 c o n s i d e r A i r M a r s h a l l s c h e d u l e s w i t h s p e c i f i c
12 i n f o r m a t i o n a s t o f l i g h t numbers , d a t e s , t i m e s a n d s e a t
13 p o s i t i o n i n g , a s h i g h l y c o n f i d e n t i a l - - I 'm s o r r y ,
14 h i g h l y c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n wh e t he r i t was marked
15 s e c r e t o r n o t t o p s e c r e t . I c o n s i d e r e d t h a t
16 i n f o r m a t i o n t o be h i g h l y s a f e g u a r d had .
17 Q We l l , you b r i n g t h a t up. L e t me make s u r e
18 t h a t we a r e on t h e same p a g e , t h e n , w i t h r e s p e c t t o my
19 q u e s t i o n s a b o u t s c h e d u l e s when t h e Y ' r e p r i n t e d o u t .
20 The s c h e d u l e s when t h e y ' r e p r i n t e d o u t , d o e s
21 i t i n c l u d e f l i g h t numbers?
22 A Yes
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1 Q Does i t i n c l u d e s e a t a s s i g n m e n t s ?
2 A At one t ime t h e y d i d , b u t i t - - I b e l i e v e t h e y
3 s topped t h a t p r a c t i c e .
4 Q What e l s e d i d t h e s c h e d u l e , when i t ' s p r i n t e d
5 o u t , i n c l u d e ?
6 A Your p a r t n e r ' s name, o r i g i n , d e s t i n a t i o n ,
7 t i m e s , f l i g h t d e p a r t u r e t i me s and f l i g h t a r r i v a l t i m e s .
8 Q T h a t would be i n a d d i t i o n t o t h e f l i g h t
9 number, c o r r e c t ?
10 A C o r r e c t .
11 Q Anyth ing e l s e ?
12 A T h a t ' s a l l I c an t h i n k o f r i g h t now.
13 Q So, t h e f l i g h t s c h e d u l e t h a t y o u saw p r i n t s
14 had o u t t h a t d i d n ' t have an y SSI l a b e l o n i t , c o n t a i n e d
15 f l i g h t n u m b e r s , p a r t n e r s names , o r i g i n , d e s t i n a t i o n ,
16 t i m e s , c o r r e c t ?
17 A C o r r e c t .
18 Q An d a t one p o i n t you remember t h e f l i g h t
19 s c h e d u l e s c o n t a i n i n g s e a t a s s i g n m e n t s , b u t w i t h r e s p e c t
20 t o t h e s c h e d u l e t h a t you r e c a l l n o t h a v i n g a n S S I
21 l a b e l , do you know w h e t h e r o r n o t t h a t p r i n t o u t
22 i ?
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1 A I d o n ' t know.
2 Q These s c h e d u l e s would i n c l u d e a ny m i s s i o n s
3 t h a t were remain o v e r n i g h t , c o r r e c t ?
4 A Yes .
5 Q In t a l k i n g a b o u t - - l e t me go bac k .
6 Yo u g a v e me your u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f what i s S8I .
7 Do you have an u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s t o what
8 r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s you had i n hand l ing SSI?
9 A Yes , I knew t h e agency d i d n o t want me t o
10 d i v u l g e s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n , an d t h a t i t
11 must b e s a f e g u a r d e d i f i t wa s l a b e l e d b y t h e agency a s
12 b e i n g s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .
13 I ' l l c a l l i t 88 1 from no w on .
14 Q S u r e . So w i l l I .
15 Were you aware o f an y o t h e r r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s
16 you had t o SSI b e s i d e s n o t d i v u l g i n g 8SI?
17 A I h ad a r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o p r o t e c t t h e p u b l i c , I)i
Il18 my p a r t n e r , p r o p e r t y , and t h e i n t e g r i t y o f a v i a t i o n
19 s e c u r i t y o v e r a l l .
20 Q Do you know whe th e r o r n o t you h ad any
21 r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o l a b e l S 8I , y o u r s e l f ?
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1 t o l a b e l a n y t h i n g m y s e l f , an y t y p e o f c l a s s i f i c a t i o n .
2 Q Were you aware o f an y r e s p o n s i b i l i t y i f you
3 s h o u l d h a v e r e c e i v e d SSI t h a t d i d n ' t h a v e a l a b e l on
4 i t ?
5 A I w o u l d n ' t know if i t wa s SSI o r n o t u n l e s s i t
6 h ad a l a b e l .
7 Q Can you g i v e me examples o f what you knew t o
8 b e SSI?
9 A A n y t h i n g t h a t t h e agency marked S S I .
10 Q A n y t h i n g e l s e ?
11 A N o .
12 Q I s i t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t SSI i s l i m i t e d
13 o n l y t o w r i t t e n i n f o r m a t i o n ?
14 A I do n o t know.
15 Q Do y ou b e l i e v e t h a t SSI can b e d i s c u s s e d
16 v e r b a l l y a s opposed t o i n w r i t i n g ?
17 A Yes. Such a s w e ' r e d o i n g now.
18 Q How would you mark SSI if y o u ' r e d i s c u s s i n g i t
19 v e r b a l l y ?
20 A U s u a l l y t h e s e n i o r i n d i v i d u a l i n t h e
21 c o n v e r s a t i o n w i l l g i v e a d i s c l a i m e r , a n o r a l d i s c l a i m e r
22 t h a t t h e f o l l o w i n g i n f o r m a t i o n i s c o n s i d e r e d s e n s i t i v e ,
Page 81 111I1i1lj,1
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1 S S I .
2 Q You sa y " u s u a l l y . "
3 I s t h a t a lways t h e c a s e t h a t you g e t t h i s
4 d i s c l a i m e r from a s e n i o r p e r s o n t h a t t h e d i s c u s s i o n
5 y o u r a b o u t t o have i n c l u d e s s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y
6 i n f o r m a t i o n ?
7 A I n t h e i n i t i a l i n t r o d u c t i o n o f t h e s u b j e c t ,
8 y e s .
9 I f I am t o l d t h a t a c e r t a i n i s s u e by one
10 i n d i v i d u a l i s c o n s i d e r e d c l a s s i f i a b l e i n f o r m a t i o n , I
11 w i l l , u n t i l t o l d o t h e r w i s e , w i l l c o n s i d e r t h a t i s s u e a s
12 b e i n g c l a s s i f i e d c o n f i d e n t i a l o r S S I .
13 Q Can you r e p e a t h i s a n s w e r f o r me ? S o r r y.
14 (Whereupon, t h e p e n d i n g q u e s t i o n wa s r e a d i n t o
15 t h e r e c o r d b y t h e r e p o r t e r a s f o l l o w s :
16 "Q I n t h e i n i t i a l i n t r o d u c t i o n o f t h e s u b j e c t ,
17 y e s . I f I am t o l d t h a t a c e r t a i n i s s u e b y one
18 i n d i v i d u a l i s c o n s i d e r e d c l a s s i f i a b l e i n f o r m a t i o n , I
19 w i l l , u n t i l t o l d o t h e r w i s e , w i l l c o n s i d e r t h a t i s s u e a s
20 b e i n g c l a s s i f i e d c o n f i d e n t i a l o r S S I ? " )
21 THE WITNESS: I s t h a t even a word? I ' l l f e e l
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Page 83
1 j u s t made t h a t u p .
2 MS. CALAGUAS: T h a t ' s f i n e . I t h i n k I
3 u n d e r s t a n d what you mean by i t anyways.
4 THE WITNESS: Okay. I ' l l r e p h r a s e i t a s t h e
5 p o t e n t i a l t o b e i n g c l a s s i f i e d .
6 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
7 Q So t h a t I 'm c l e a r , t h e n , does t h e s e n i o r
8 o f f i c i a l have t o s a y t h a t t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t ' s a b o u t
9 t o be d i s c u s s e d ma y i n c l u d e c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n
10 b e f o r e you would c o n s i d e r t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t o be
11 c l a s s i f i e d , c o n f i d e n t i a l o r SSI?
12 A A b s o l u t e l y , u n l e s s I ha d a p r i o r knowledge o f
13 t h e t o p i c b e i n g c l a s s i f i e d a l r e a d y .
14 Q The s e n i o r o f f i c i a l s p e c i f i c a l l y h a s t o u se
15 t h e word " c l a s s i f i e d " i n y ou r mind b e f o r e you would
16 know?
17 A No, t h e y cou ld s a y i t wa s c o n f i d e n t i a l ,
18 c l a s s i f i e d , o r t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n i s la w e n f o r c e m e n t
19 s e n s i t i v e . An y o f t h o s e t e r m i n o l o g i e s would h a v e b e e n
20 u s e d .
21 Q An d by u s i n g an y o f t h o s e t e r m i n o l o g i e s , what
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1 r e s p e c t t o t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t ' s a b o u t t o b e d i s c u s s e d
2 v e r b a l l y ?
3 A P l e a s e r e p h r a s e .
4 Q When a s e n i o r o f f i c i a l u s e s t h a t t y p e o f
5 t e r m i n o l o g y t h a t y o u ' v e j u s t d e s c r i b e d - -
6 A Ye s .
7 Q - - would t h a t i n d i c a t e t o you an y
8 r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t h a t you may have w i t h r e s p e c t t o t h e
9 i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t ' s a b o u t t o be d i s c u s s e d ?
10 A Yes .
11 Q An d w h a t would t h a t r e s p o n s i b i l i t y be?
12 A T h a t I c a n n o t d i s c u s s t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n w i t h
13 anybody who d i d n o t have a nee d - to - kn ow.
14 Q Your c e l l phone i n 2003 , s p e c i f i c a l l y i n a b o u t
15 J u l y o f 2003 , was i t pas swor d p r o t e c t e d ?
16 A No.
17 Q D id i t have t h e c a p a b i l i t y o f b e i n g pas sw ord
18 p r o t e c t e d ?
19 A I do n o t know.
20 Q But you d i d n o t p as sword p r o t e c t t h a t phone?
21 A Are you r e f e r r i n g t o t h e v o i c e m a i l , t o a c c e s s
22 i l ?
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1 The o n l y pas sw ord r e q u i r e d on t h e c e l l p h o n e
2 wa s t o g a i n a c c e s s t o vo ice ma i l .
3 Q In t e rms o f o p e r a t i n g t h e phone , wa s a
4 pa s s w ord r e q u i r e d ?
5 A No .
6 Q I n t e rms o f - - s o , l e t me make s u r e I ' m c l e a r .
7 So, r e c e i v i n g o r send ing phone c a l l s ?
8 A No .
9 Q Was a pas sword r e q u i r e d to r e c e i v e o r send
10 t e x t messages?
11 A No . L e t me s t o p . The phone d i d n ' t ha ve t h e
12 a b i l i t y t o send t e x t me ssage s , o n l y c o u l d r e c e i v e t e x t
13 mes s a ges .
14 Q So, t h e o n l y p a s s w o r d r e q u i r e d w i t h r e s p e c t t o
15 y o u r c e l l p h o n e i n 2003 , wa s f o r check ing v o i c e m a i l ?
16 A Yes .
17 Q In 2003, what t y p e s o f i n f o r m a t i o n d i d you
18 r e c e i v e v i a t e x t message?
19 A Most of i t wa s to t e l l a b o u t a t r a f f i c r e p o r t ,
20 t h a t t h e r e was a t e r m i n a l b e i n g c l o s e d a t t h e a i r p o r t ,
21 j u s t g e n e r a l knowledge t h i n g s t o g ive A i r M a r s h a l s a
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1 Q I n t h i s p e r i o d o f t i m e , d i d you e v e r r e c e i v e a
2 t e x t message t h a t changed y o u r s c h e d u l e ?
3 A Yes .
4 Q What t y p e o f i n f o r m a t i o n w i t h r e s p e c t t o y o u r
5 change o f s c h e d u l e would t h e t e x t message b e?
6 A Are you r e f e r r i n g t o th e RONs b e i n g c a n c e l e d ?
7 Q Not i f s p e c i f i c a l l y . J u s t g e n e r a l l y .
8 A I r e c e i v e d a l l k i n d s o f i n f o r m a t i o n a l l t h e
9 t ime i n t e x t m e s s a g e s .
10 Q What a b o u t t h e o n e s w i t h r e s p e c t t o y o u r
11 s c h e d u l e ?
12 A Yes, we would g e t n o t i f i c a t i o n s o f a c h a n g e i n
13 o u r s chedu l e an d t o g i v e somebody a c a l l .
14 Q Can you g i v e me an example o f a t e x t message
15 t h a t yo u r e c e i v e d w i t h r e g a r d t o a change i n y o u r
16 s c h e d u l e ?
17 A Say, t h e r e ' s been a change i n y o u r s c h e d u l e ,
18 p l e a s e c a l l o p e r a t i o n s t o g e t a ne w s c h e d u l e .
19 Q I n t h e t e x t m e s s a g e , would you e v e r r e c e i v e
20 more i n f o r m a t i o n a b o u t t h e a c t u a l change i n y o u r
21 s c h e d u l e ?
22 A N o t h i n g s p e c i f i c a s i n f l i g h t numbers o r
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1 any th ing l i k e t h a t . Tha t wa s i t . J u s t a c a l l t h e r e
2 wa s a change i n t h e s c h e d u l e a nd t o c a l l o p e r a t i o n s .
3 T h a t ' s i t .
4 Q Were any d a t e s r e f l e c t e d i n a t e x t message i f
5 t h e r e wa s a c h a n g e i n your s chedu le?
6 A Yes .
7 Q I n what c o n t e x t would t h e d a t e s appea r t hen?
8 A The d a t e of t h e schedu le chan ge . Th e d a t e
9 where t h e c h a n g e wa s go i ng t o b e i n t h e s c h e d u l e .
10 Q By knowing t h e d a t e - -
11 A I 'm s o r r y, th e d a t e o f when t h e m i s s i o n s were
12 supposed t o be f lown.
13 Q Ca n you g ive me an example?
14 A "Miss ion f o r J u l y 3 r d changed. C a l l
15 o p e r a t i o n s . "
16 I have t o u se t h e r e s t room a g a i n . I 'm s o r r y .
17 MS. CALAGUAS: We can go o f f r e c o r d .
18 (A b r e a k wa s t a k e n . )
19 MS. CALAGUAS: We a r e b ack on t h e r e c o r d .
20 Q I t h i n k my l a s t q u e s t i o n wa s f o r you t o g i v e
21 me an example o f a change i n y o u r s c h e d u l e a nd ho w t h a t
22 would b e d e s c r i b e d i n a t e x t m e s s a g e
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1 A "Schedule change J u l y 1 s t , 2003 . C a l l
2 o p e r a t i o n s f o r f u r t h e r i n f o r m a t i o n . "
3 Q So , by r e f e r r i n g t o th e d a t e J u l y 1 s t , 2003 ,
4 i n y o u r example , would t h a t be wi t h r e s p e c t t o any
5 p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t s f o r t h a t day?
6 A An y f l i g h t s i n t h a t g i v e n day.
7 Q In 2003 , wa s t h e r e e v e r a t ime where y o u r
8 s chedu l e would change such t h a t you would n o t be on a
9 p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t ?
10 A I t ' s a p o s s i b i l i t y .
11 Q D id it , i nde ed , happen a t some p o i n t i n 2003?
12 A You want t o r e p h r a s e t h a t q u e s t i o n , p l e a s e ?
13 Or i f you c o u l d r e a d i t back t o me?
14 Q In 2003 , wa s t h e r e a t ime where y o u r s c h e d u l e
15 changed such t h a t you were n o t on a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t ?
16 A I d o n ' t remember.
17 Q Aside from t h e d a t e , would you have anymore
18 i n fo rma t ion i n t h e t e x t message a b o u t a change i n y o u r
19 s c h e d u l e , g e n e r a l l y speak in g , i n 2003?
20 A J u s t t h e d a t e an d t o c a l l . T h a t ' s a l l I can
21 remember.
22 Q The t e x t message i n t h i s c a s e , le t ' s t a l k
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 a b o u t t h a t .
2 Do you remember when you r e c e i v e d t h e t e x t
3 message t h a t RON m i s s i o n s would be c a n c e l e d ?
4 A I t was on o r a b o u t J u l y 28 th o f 2003 .
5 Q Yo u a g r e e t h a t yo u s h a r e d t h e i n f o r m a t i o n i n
6 t h i s t e x t m e s s a g e t o Brock Meeks on J u l y 29 th , 2003?
7 A Yes .
8 Q So, you b e l i e v e t h a t yo u w a i t e d a day, t h e n ,
9 a f t e r r e c e i v i n g t h e t e x t m e s s a g e b e f o r e s h a r i n g i t w i t h
10 B r o c k Meeks?
11 A I d o n ' t remember. I made a p h o n e c a l l t o t h e
12 I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l Hot L i n e .
13 Q T h a t would have b ee n a f t e r you r e c e i v e d t h e
14 t e x t message?
15 A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .
16 Q I n t h e r e s p o n s e s t h a t you p r o v i d e d me , t h a t
17 phone c a l l t o t h e I n s p e c t o r Genera l , y ou h a d i d e n t i f i e d
18 a s t a k i n g p l a c e on J a n u a r y 2 5 t h , 2003?
19 A C o r r e c t .
20 MR. NOONE: J a n u a r y o r Ju ly?
21 MS. CALAGUAS: S o r r y, J u l y 2 4 t h .
22 THE WITNESS R i h I i k d J l 2 8 h
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Page 90
1 abou t because t h a t ' s when I knew I spok e w i t h Brock
2 Meeks.
3 B ut I c o u l d have g o t t e n t h e t e x t message any
4 number o f g iven days p r i o r t o t h a t . I do no t know
5 s p e c i f i c a l l y .
6 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
7 Q I f you can r e c a l l any s p e c i f i c d a t e s , I mean I
8 u n d e r s t a n d i t wa s t h a t l ong a g o .
9 What I 'm t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d , t ho ugh , i s how
10 much t ime h a d p a s s e d between when you f i r s t r e c e i v e d
11 t h e t e x t message and when you sha red i t w i t h Brock
12 Meeks?
13 A I d o n ' t remember.
14 Q More t han a day?
15 A I d o n ' t remember.
16 Q Could i t have b e e n as l ong a s a week?
17 A I d o n ' t remember.
18 Q Between t h e t ime t h a t you r e c e i v e d t h e t e x t
}19 message and s h a r e d i t wi th Brock Meeks, i s t h a t when
,
IiI:
20 you c o n t a c t e d OIG?
21 A Yes .
22 Q D id you c o n t a c t anyone e l s e a b o u t t h e t e x t I;
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 message i n between t h e t ime t h a t you r e c e i v e d t h e t e x t
2 message and when you sha red i t w i t h Brock Meeks?
3 A Yes . I spoke wi th a s u p e r v i s o r .
4 Q Which s u p e r v i s o r d i d you speak t o ?
5 A A s s i s t a n t t o t h e S p e c i a l Agent i n cha rge ,
6 Roger S c o f f i e l d .
7 Q I t hough t y o u r s u p e r v i s o r was Mr. M a r s i g l i a n o .
8 A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .
9 Q Mr . S c o f f i e 1 d wa s a n o t h e r s u p e r v i s o r ?
10 A C o r r e c t .
11 Q B ut n o t y o u r d i r e c t s u p e r v i s o r ?
12 A C o r r e c t . I p e l i e v e he may have be en t h e d u t y
13 ASAC a t t h e t ime . Supe rv i so r s were u s u a l l y corning an d
14 go ing , u n a v a i l a b l e , so t h e r e wa s a du ty s u p e r v i s o r .
15 Q Had you p r e f e r r e d t o speak t o your s u p e r v i s o r ,
16 Mr . M a r s i g l i a n o , r a t h e r than Mr . S c o f f i e l d A t t h e t ime
17 t h a t you d i d speak t o Mr. S c o f f i e l d ?
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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Page 92
1 c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h Mr. S c o f f i e l d ?
2 A Yes , i t was .
3 Q S o , i t wa s i n t h e Vegas f i e l d o f f i c e ?
4 A Ye s .
5 Q What d i d h e s a y ?
6 A He s a i d t h a t t h e r e wa s no more - - t h e r e wa s a
7 budg e t p rob l em a n d e v e r y b o d y h ad made t h e i r - - t h e r e
8 were c o m p l a i n t s a b o u t i t , b u t t h e r e wa s n o t h i n g g o i n g
9 t o be done b e c a u s e t h e r e wa s a p p a r e n t l y no money i n t h e
10 b u d g e t t o f u n d o v e r n i g h t m i s s i o n s .
11 He s a i d i t wa s d i s c u s s e d w i t h h e a d q u a r t e r s and
12 e v e r y b o d y a g r e e d t h a t i t wa s a d a n g e r o u s d e c i s i o n a nd
13 t h a t i t b r o k e t h e l aw, b u t t h a t h i s h a n d s w e r e t i e d a nd
14 t h e r e wa s n o t h i n g t h a t c o u l d be done a b o u t i t .
15 Q You remember h im u s i n g th e words "dan ge rous
16 d e c i s i o n " ?
17 A Yes .
18 Q Do you remember him u s i n g t h e words "b roke t h e
19 l aw"?
20 A We l l , I t o l d him t h e la w t h a t t h e y w e r e
21 b r e a k i n g an d h e a g r e e d .
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 b r o k en?
2 A I t was a - - i t wa s a l i n e i n t h e , i t wa s a
3 s e c t i o n i n t h e a v i a t i o n and t r a n s p o r t a t i o n s e c u r i t y
4 a c c o u n t .
5 Do you g o t t h a t f i l e ?
6 MR. NOONE: No .
7 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
8 Q As b e s t you can r e c a l l i t , t h e r e was some
9 p r o v i s i o n o f ASAC t h a t you b e l i e v e d was b e i n g b roken?
10 A No , I knew was b e i n g broken .
11 Q You ma y n o t remember t h e s p e c i f i c l a n g u a g e ,
12 b u t can you g e n e r a l l y d e s c r i b e t o me what a b o u t ASAC
13 t h a t you t h o u g h t wa s b e i n g b ro ke n?
14 A Yes , l ong d i s t a n c e a i r c r a f t t h a t f lew
15 non- s top , j u s t l i k e t h e f o u r a i r c r a f t s t h a t were
16 h i g h j a c k e d and f lown i n t o t h e g r ou nd on S e p t e m b e r 1 1 t h .
17 I b e l i e v e i t s p e c i f i c a l l y s a i d S e p t e m b e r 11 t h ,
18 a nd i t s a i d - - I d o n ' t remember, i t was e i t h e r l ong'!
19 h a u l o r l ong d i s t a n c e f l i g h t s t h a t were n o n - s t o p . I
20 b e l i e v e t h a t wa s some of t h e l a n g u a g e i n t h a t l a w.
21 Q I n d i s c u s s i n g t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n o f RON m i s s i o n s
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1 w e r e d i s c u s s i n g s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n fo rma t ion?
2 A I t d i d n o t m a t t e r .
3 Q Why d i d n ' t i t m a t t e r ?
4 A B e c a u s e t h e la w wa s be ing b roken and t h e
5 p u b l i c was b e i n g endange re d , and i t wa s an abuse o f
6 a u t h o r i t y . P u b l i c l i v e s were a t r i s k .
7 I t d i d n o t m a t t e r t o me whe th e r i t wa s
8 c o n f i d e n t i a l , law en fo rc em en t s e n s i t i v e , 551 , o r
9 c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n . I t wa s b r e a k i n g t h e law and i t
10 wa s e n d a n g e r i n g l i f e .
11 Q What e l s e wa s d i s c u s s e d w i t h Mr . S c o f f i e l d ?
12 A T h a t ' s a l l I c an remember.
13 Q How l ong would you say t h i s c o n v e r s a t i o n
14 l a s t e d ?
15 A Probab ly l e s s t han 15 m i n u t e s .
16 Q An d when you s a i d t h a t he ag reed w i t h y o u r
17 s t a t e m e n t t h a t you b e l i e v e d t h a t t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n o f
18 RON m i s s i o n s wa s b r e a k i n g t h e l aw, ho w d i d he show h i s
19 ag r e e men t?
20 A He s a i d , " I ag ree w i t h you, f u l l h e a r t e d l y . "
21 Q Those were h i s words?
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1 I d o n ' t know e x a c t l y what he s a i d . I d o n ' t
2 want t o do an e x a c t quo te , b u t he s a i d t h a t t h e r e wa s
3 n o t h i n g t h a t c o u l d be done a b o u t i t . There wa s no
4 money and , t h e r e f o r e , t h e miss ions h ad t o be c a n c e l e d .
5 Q So, d u r i n g t h i s c o n v e r s a t i o n , you d i d n ' t a sk
6 him whe the r o r n o t t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n o f RON miss ions wa s
7 s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y ' i n f o r m a t i o n ?
8 A I t o l d him i t wa s a v i o l a t i o n o f F e d e r a l l aw.
9 Q My q u e s t i o n i s , d i d you a sk him whe the r o r n o t
10 i t was SS1?
11 A N o .
12 Q Were you on du ty when you r e c e i v e d t h e t e x t
13 message?
14 A I d o n ' t remember.
15 Q When you r e c e i v e d t h e t e x t message , i t d i d n ' t
16 c o n t a i n a l a b e l t h a t i t was SS1, c o r r e c t ?
17 A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .
18 Q A t t h e t ime t h a t you r e c e i v e d i t , d i d you
19 wonder w h e t h e r o r no t i t wa s SS1?
20 A N o .
21 Q A t a ny t ime , d i d you wonder w h e t h e r o r n o t i t
Page 95 I]jj
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1 A No . Can I con t inue?
2 Q You ' r e n o t f i n i s h e d w i t h y o u r r e s p o n s e ?
3 A No .
4 Q Okay, go ahead .
5 A A c t u a l l y , I d i d n ' t b e l i e v e t h a t t h e t e x t
6 m e s s a g e wa s a c t u a l l y f a c t u a l , t h a t i t was a m i s t a k e .
7 T h a t ' s wh y I wanted t o s p e a k w i t h Roger
8 S c o f f i e l d a b o u t i t . I wanted t o s p e a k t o somebody i n
9 c h a rg e a b o u t i t .
10 Q At t h e t i m e t h a t y ou s p o k e w i t h Mr . S c o f f i e l d ,
11 had you a l r e a d y c o n t a c t e d OIG?
12 A I a l r e a d y h a d known - - I h a d s p o k e n t o
13 somebody e l s e , I d o n ' t remember, b u t I had spoken t o a
14 f e l l o w A i r M a r s h a l .
15 I c a l l e d him up an d a s k e d him if i t was a f a c t
16 t h a t t h e y w e r e - - t h a t e v e r y t h i n g wa s b e i n g c a n c e l e d
17 and t h e y h ad s a i d t h e y c a l l e d o p e r a t i o n s and w e r e t o l d1
18 so .,i
19 Q So, a f t e r you c h e c k e d w i t h a n o t h e r F e d e r a l A i r
20 Mar s h a l , wa s i t a t t h a t p o i n t y ou c o n t a c t e d OIG?
21 A I b e l i e v e s o . I 'm a l mo s t c e r t a i n t h a t I spok e
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Page 97
1 Q Why d i d you c o n t a c t OIG?
2 A B e c a u s e i t wa s a v i o l a t i o n o f t h e l a w.
3 Q So, what was y o u r p u r p o s e o f c a l l i n g OIG?
4 A To r e p o r t a v i o l a t i o n o f l a w. An d t h e y were
5 t h e o n l y p e o p l e t h a t I knew t h a t c o u l d a d d r e s s such an
6 i s s u e .
7 Q What d i d OIG sa y i n r e s p o n s e t o y o u r
8 r e p o r t i n g , i f any th ing?
9 A I s p o k e t o an o p e r a t o r an d t h e y s a i d t h a t t h i s
10 h a d t o be some th ing t h a t h a d t o b e d i s c u s s e d w i t h my
11 c h a i n o f command.
12 They w e r e n ' t i n t e r e s t e d . I g o t t h e f e e l i n g
13 t h e y w e r e v e r y much u n i n t e r e s t e d i n my c l a i m .
14 Q So, d i d you s peak t o Mr . S c o f f i e l d b e c a u s e OIG
15 s a i d t o go t o y o u r c h a i n o f command?
16 A Yes .
i
17 Q What makes you t h i n k t h a t OIG wa s u n i n t e r e s t e d
18 i n y o u r r e p o r t i n g ?
19 A B e c a u s e I wanted t o spe ak t o an i n v e s t i g a t o r .
Ii
I;
11
20 An d t h e y t o l d me no i n v e s t i g a t o r s w e r e
21 a v a i l a b l e a t t h e t ime , and t hen t h e y t o l d me t o
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Page 98
1 O a k l a n d f i e l d o f f i c e .
2 Q D id yo u do t h a t ?
3 A I c a l l e d t h e r e an d I spoke t o a S p e c i a l A g e n t
4 Davidson i n t h e Oakland o f f i c e , a nd he p r e t t y much s a i d
5 t h a t i t was n o t a n i s s u e t h a t he c o u l d d e a l w i t h . He
6 seemed v e r y u n i n t e r e s te d a l s o .
7 Q D id you spea k t o anyone e l s e a b o u t t h i s b e f o r e
8 t a l k i n g t o Meeks?
9 A I t h i n k I s p o k e t o s e v e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s a b o u t
10 i t .
11 Q Anyone e l s e ?
12 A N ot t h a t I c a n t h i n k o f .
13 Q P r i o r t o speak ing w i t h Meeks, yo u h ad some
14 s o r t o f r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h him a l r e a d y , r i g h t ?
15 A I knew t h a t he wa s r e p o r t i n g on A i r Marsh a l
16 i s s u e s . T h a t ' s a l l I knew o f Meeks.
17 Q How d i d yo u know t h a t ?
18 A B e c a u s e I r e a d h i s a r t i c l e s b e f o r e and I knew
19 t o c o n t a c t him. He ha d a l s o be a t t e m p t i n g t o c o n t a c t
20 me s i n c e I wa s t h e Execu t ive Vi c e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e
21 F e d e r a l Law E n f o r c e m e n t O f f i c e r s A s s o c i a t i o n , t h e
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 Q So, how many t i m e s d i d you sp eak t o Meeks
2 a b o u t t h i s t e x t message?
3 A J u s t once . I t c o u l d have b e e n maybe I g o t
4 ba c k w i t h him i n a phone c a l l l a t e r , b u t I t h i n k p r e t t y
5 much i t wa s a l l one t i m e .
6 Q An d was t h i s t h e f i r s t t i m e t h a t yo u had
7 spoken w i t h Meeks?
8 A Ye s .
9 Q So , when he t r i e d t o g e t a h o l d o f y ou b e f o r e ,
10 you d i d n ' t r e t u r n h i s phone c a l l s ?
11 A No, he u s u a l l y w o u l d s en d me e - m a i l s .
12 Q Did you communica te w i t h Meeks b y e - m a i l ,
13 t h e n , b e f o r e t a l k i n g t o him a b o u t t h i s t e x t message?
14 A I d o n ' t u n d e r s t a n d what y o u ' r e a s k i n g . Could
15 yo u a s k me t h e q u e s t i o n ? Yo u ' r e a s k i n g me i f I ' v e
16 s p o k e n t o him on o t h e r s u b j e c t s p r i o r ?
17 Q Befo re t h i s , y e s .
18 A On a d i f f e r e n t i s s u e ?
19 Q A t a l l a t t h i s p o i n t .
20 A No . Thi s i s t h e o n l y t o p i c I d i s c u s s e d w i t h
21 him.
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1 an y d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h Meeks, whe th e r b y t e l e p h o n e o r b y
2 e - m a i l , b e f o r e t h e t ime t h a t yo u c o n t a c t e d him a b o u t
3 t h i s t e x t m e s s a g e ?
4 A No .
5 Q So, ho w d i d yo u know how t o g e t a h o l d o f
6 Meeks?
7 A He h as h i s - - i n h i s e - m a i l , he l e a v e s h i s
8 phone number.
9 Q An d t h a t ' s t h e number t h a t yo u c a l l e d ?
10 A Ye s .
11 Q What was y o u r p u r p o s e o f c a l l i n g Meeks?
12 A To t e l l him t h a t t h e agency was b r e a k i n g t h e
13 law a n d wa s e n d a n g e r i n g t h e p u b l i c by c a n c e l i n g RON
14 m i s s i o n s .
15 Q A t t h i s t i m e t h a t y ou c a l l e d him, d i d you
16 s t i l l h a v e a copy o f t h e t e x t m e s s a g e s a v e d o n y o u r
17 phone?
18 A No.
19 Q So , i n d e s c r i b i n g t h e t e x t m e s s a g e t o him,
20 were you g o i n g o f f o f your memory?
Ii,1 A Yes .
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 c e l l p h o n e t h a t y o u h a d a t t h e t i m e ?
2 A I d o n ' t know.
3 Q Do you know w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e t e x t m e s s a g e
4 c o n t a i n e d a n y o t h e r i n f o r m a t i o n a s i d e f rom what you
5 r e l a y e d t o B r o c k Meeks?
6 A I d o n ' t know.
7 Q But you know i t d i d n ' t c o n t a i n an S SI l a b e l ?
8 A C o r r e c t .
9 Q I n r e c e i v i n g a t e x t m e s s a g e , do you h a v e ,
10 l i k e , a r e a s o n l i n e ?
11 A A w h a t ?
12 Q A r e a s o n l i n e , l i k e i n t h e h e a d e r .
13 Do you h a v e a h e a d e r f o r t e x t m e s s a g e s ? L e t
14 me a s k you t h a t .
15 A No .
16 Q Do you know who t h e s e n d e r o f t h e t e x t m e s s a g e
17 was?
18 A No, I d o n ' t remember.
19 Q I n r e c e i v i n g t h i s t e x t m e s s a g e , c o u l d you t e l l
!
20 who t h e s e n d e r was?
21 A I do n o t know.
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 m e s s a g e s on t h i s c e l l phone?
2 A Anybody.
3 Q D id you t e l l Mr . Meeks a n y t h i n g a b o u t who s e n t
4 y o u t h e t e x t message?
5 A No . I t o l d him i t came from O p e r a t i o n s .
6 Q How d i d you know i t came from O p e r a t i o n s ?
7 A I b e l i e v e i t h a d a - - u s u a l l y , t h e r e wa s
8 a - - when t h e y s e n t o u t t e x t m e s s a g e s , t h e y carne from a
9 g e n e r a l e - m a i l a c c o u n t t h a t j u s t s a i d " O p e r a t i o n s . "
10 U s u a l l y t h e y gave - - I 'm assuming t h e y gave
11 t h e p e o p l e who work i n O p e r a t i o n s a c c e s s t o t h e
12 a c c o u n t , a nd whoever would go o n t h e r e , t h e r e was a
13 p r e s e t , e v e r y b o d y ' s c e l l phone t e x t a d d r e s s so t h e y
14 c o u l d s end o u t b r o a d c a s t s .
15 So I 'm assuming e v e r y b o d y i n t h e L as Vegas
16 f i e l d o f f i c e g o t t h a t t e x t m e s s a g e .
17 Q So, yo u do r e c a l l t h a t t h e t e x t m e s s a g e came
18 from O p e r a t i o n s ?
19 A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .
20 When you a sked b e f o r e I t h o u g h t y ou m e a n t i t
21 wa s from a n i n d i v i d u a l .I t
came from t h e O p e r a t i o n s
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1 i n d i v i d u a l .
2 Q When you w e r e speak ing wi th o t h e r FAMS abou t
3 t h i s t e x t message , d i d you v e r i f y t h a t t h e y too a l s o
4 r e c e i v e d t h e same t e x t message?
5 A C o r r e c t . I a l s o v e r i f i e d t h a t t hey h ad
6 r e c e i v e d t h e same i n f o r m a t i o n abou t t h e f a c t t h a t t h e
7 m i s s i o n s were b e i n g c a n c e l e d .
8 Q The FAMS t h a t you d i d speak t o abou t t h i s t e x t
9 m e s sage , were t h e y a l l from t h e Las Vegas f i e l d o f f i c e ?
10 A Yes .
11 Q Did you speak t o a ny o t h e r FAMS a b o u t t h i s
12 t e x t message t h a t w e r e n o t o u t o f t h e Las Vegas f i e l d
13 o f f i c e ?
14 A I d o n ' t remember.
15 Q When you s h a r e d t h i s t e x t message w i t h Brock
16 Meeks, d i d you have an u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s t o what he
17 would do w i t h t h e i n f o r m a t i o n ?
18 A Yes, I knew he wa s going t o r e p o r t i t . He wa s
19 going t o w r i t e a s t o r y a b o u t i t , immedia te ly, and he
20 wa s a l s o go ing t o c o n t a c t s e n a t o r s and o t h e r
21 r e s p o n s i b l e Government e mp loyee s .
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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Page 104
1 r e m a i n anonymous?
2 A Ye s . I n t h e a r t i c l e , I a s k e d t o r e m a i n
3 anonymous .
4 Q D id you know w h e t h e r o r n o t h e w o u l d q u o t e you
5 a s someone t h a t was anonymous?
6 A He p romised t h a t he w o u l d n ' t q u o t e me , t h a t he
7 w o u l d n ' t u s e my name.
8 Q He w o u l d n ' t u s e y o u r name, b u t you u n d e r s t o o d
9 t h a t h e w o u l d b e q u o t i n g t h e t e x t m e s s a g e t h a t you
10 s h a r e d w i t h him, c o r r e c t ?
11 A I d o n ' t know. I d o n ' t remember t h a t much.
12 Q D i d y o u t e l l him n o t t o q u o t e t h e t e x t m e s s a g e
13 t h a t y ou s h a r e d w i t h him?
14 A No, I d i d n ' t a s k him.
15 Q How d i d you know t h a t h e would c o n t a c t.J
16 S e n a t o r s ?
Ii11
17 He t o l d me s o .
18 D i d y o u c o n t a c t any s e n a t o r s a b o u t t h i s t e x t
19 message?
20 A No .
21 Q Did you c o n t a c t any o t h e r Government o f f i c i a l s
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 A No , j u s t OIG, a nd S c o f f i e l d , an d f e l l o w A i r
2 M a r s h a l s .
3 Q Do you know w h e t h e r o r n o t Meeks e v e r
4 c o n t a c t e d a n y S e n a t o r s o r any o t h e r Government
5 o f f i c i a l s ?
6 A I d o n ' t remember.
7 Q Did you h a v e a n y o t h e r f o l l o w - u p d i s c u s s i o n s
8 w i t h Meeks a s i d e from t h i s one?
9 A Ye s .
10 Q About t h i s t o p i c ?
11 A I t h i n k I d i d . I 'm i n t h e s u r e .
12 Q Befo re wh y t a l k a b o u t t h a t , w h a t e l s e was
13 d i s c u s s e d i n - - you s a i d i t wa s a p h o n e c a l l , c o r r e c t ?
14 A C o r r e c t .
15 Q What e l s e wa s d i s c u s s e d i n t h i s p h o n e c a l l
16 when you f i r s t s h a r e d w i t h him t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e t e x t
17 message?
18 A O t h e r t h a n t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n o f l o n g - h a u l
19 f l i g h t s ?
20 Q Yes , a n y t h i n g e l s e d i s c u s s e d ?
21 A No . Not t o my knowledge .
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 i n f o r m a t i o n I p o s s i b l y gave , bu t t he whole s u b j e c t wa s
2 i n r e g a r d s t o l o n g - h a u l f l i g h t s be ing cance l ed .
3 Q D id you e x p l a i n t o Meeks what a RON m i s s i o n
4 was?
5 A Yes .
6 Q He d i d n ' t a l r e a d y know?
7 A I d o n ' t remember.
8 Q You remember having t h a t d i s c u s s i o n ?
9 A C o r r e c t .
10 Q So, what abou t RON miss ions t h a t you d i s c u s s e d
11 wi th him i n t h i s c o n v e r s a t i o n ?
12 A I t o l d him t h a t t h i s wa s go ing t o l e a v e t h e
13 same t ype o f a i r c r a f t t h a t were h i g h j a c k e d on 9 / 11 , wa s
14 go ing t o l e a v e t h o s e a i r c r a f t v u l n e r a b l e , because t h o s e
15 were t h e a i r c r a f t t h a t were go ing t o be u n p r o t e c t e d .
16 Q Any o t h e r d i s c u s s i o n s abou t RON m i s s i o n s ?
17 A Would you l i k e me t o r ev i ew t h e a r t i c l e ?
18 Q Wel l , do you b e l i e v e t h a t - -
19 A We can go l i n e - b y - l i n e .
20 Q Do you b e l i e v e t h a t t h e a r t i c l e c o n t a i n e d
21 e v e r y t h i n g t h a t wa s d i s c u s s e d between you a nd Meeks?
h I b l h
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1 o t h e r i s s u e s a b o u t c a n c e l l a t i o n o f t r a i n i n g , o t h e r
2 bu d g e t c u t b a c k s t h a t I d i d n ' t have a n y d i r e c t knowledge
3 o f .
4 Q So, i f you d i d n ' t have an y d i r e c t knowledge o f
5 c a n c e l l a t i o n o f t r a i n i n g , would t h a t h a v e b e e n
6 s o m e th ing t h a t y ou d i s c u s s e d w i t h Mr . Meeks i n t h a t
7 phone c o n v e r s a t i o n ?
8 A No , b e c a u s e I w o u l d n ' t c a r e .
9 Q You w o u l d n ' t c a r e a b o u t t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n o f
10 t r a i n i n g ?
11 A No .
12 Q Why n o t ?
13 A Because I d i d n ' t want t o go . I d i d n ' t w a n t t o
14 go t o a n o t h e r s i x weeks o f t r a i n i n g .
15 Q Do y ou remember a n y t h i n g e l s e a b o u t y o u r
16 d i s c u s s i o n w i t h Mr . Meeks?
17 A T h a t ' s a l l . T h a t ' s a l l I c an remember r i g h t
18 now.
19 Q You knew t h a t he would p u b l i s h t h a t RON
20 m i s s i o n s would b e c a n c e l e d , c o r r e c t ?
21 A I knew t h a t he wa s g o i n g t o p u b l i s h t h e f a c t
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1 A i r M a r s h a l s .
2 Q Did you know t h a t he would p u b l i s h a n y
3 s p e c i f i c r e f e r e n c e s t o RON m i s s i o n s a t t h e t i m e t h a t
4 you h ad t h i s d i s c u s s i o n w i t h him?
5 A P l e a s e r e p h r a s e .
6 Q D id you know t h a t h e would r e f e r t o RON
7 m i s s i o n s i n h i s r e p o r t ?
8 A No, n o . I t ' s a p o s s i b i l i t y b e c a u s e I
9 d i s c u s s e d i t w i t h him. I h ad no i d e a w h a t h e p l a n n e d
10 t o p u b l i s h o t h e r t h a n t h e f a c t t h a t t h e l aw was b e i n g
11 b r o ken an d p e o p l e w e r e b e i n g end an ge red .
12 Q An d you d i d n ' t a s k him s p e c i f i c a l l y t o n o t
13 p u b l i s h a n y t h i n g a b o u t RON m i s s i o n s , c o r r e c t ?
14 A I d o n ' t remember.
15 Q So, what was y o u r p u r p o s e i n c o n t a c t i n g Meeks?
16 A To r e p o r t t h a t t h e r e wa s a v i o l a t i o n o f law
17 an d a d a n g e r t o p u b l i c s a f e t y b e c a u s e 9 / 11 - t y p e
18 a i r c r a f t were n o t b e i n g p r o t e c t e d by A i r M a r s h a l s d ue
19 t o an a b u s e o f a u t h o r i t y d e c i s i o n made b y Homeland
120 S e c u r i t y o f f i c i a l s .
21 Q Do yo u r e g r e t no w h a v i n g c o n t a c t e d Meeks?
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 Q Why n o t ?
2 A B e c a u s e I d i d t h e r i g h t t h i n g . I s a ved l i v e s ,
3 a nd I r e p o r t e d when t h e law wa s be ing b r o k e n . T h a t wa s
4 r e p o r t e d .
5 An d t h e a g e n c y, o f c o u r s e , r e v e r s e d i ts
6 d e c i s i o n immed ia t e ly, so , I b e l i e v e I wa s c o r r e c t i n
7 making t h a t d i s c l o s u r e .
8 Q Did you c o n s i d e r t h a t you were r i s k i n g l i v e s
9 by making t h i s d i s c l o s u r e ?
10 A N e v e r. I wa s s a v i n g l i v e s o n l y .
11 Q You saw no r i s k t o a ny l i v e s i n making t h i s
12 d i s c l o s u r e t o a news r e p o r t e r ?
13 A None.
14 Q To t h i s d a y, you s e e no r i s k t o an y l i v e s i n
15 making t h i s d i s c l o s u r e t o a r e p o r t e r ?
16 A I f t h e same haza r do us d e c i s i o n i s made a g a i n ,
17 I w o u l d n o t h e s i t a t e t o r e p o r t i t a g a i n .
18 At t h e t ime I wa s r a t h e r n a i v e . T h i s t ime I
19 p r o b a b l y would u se more d i r e c t c h a n n e l s t h r o u g h
20 a t t o r n e y s , t h rough S e n a t o r s , t h r o u g h C o n g r e s s m e n .
21 B ut a tt h e
t i me , I f e l ti t
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1 t h e o n l y wa y t o g e t t h e p o l i c y r e v e r s e d a nd s t o p p e d .
2 Q At t h i s t i m e , had you been co nce rn ed a b o u t a ny
3 PAM p o l i c i e s ?
4 A T h a t p o l i c y ?
5 Q Any p o l i c i e s . At t h i s t ime i n J u l y o f ' 03 ,
6 d i d y ou have any o t h e r c o n c e r n s a b o u t FAM p o l i c i e s ?
7 A Yes .
8 Q Did you make t h o s e c o n c e r n s known t o a n y o n e i n
9 t h e a gency e v e r b e f o r e J u l y o f 2003?
10 A Yeah . Ye s .
11 MS. CALAGUAS: T h i s m i g h t b e a good p l a c e t o
12 t a k e a b r e a k .
13 MR. NOONE: Okay.
14 MS. CALAGUAS: L e t ' s go of f t h e r e c o r d .
15 (A l u n c h b r e a k wa s t a k e n . )
16
17
18
19
20
21
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1 A F T E R N 0 0 N S E S S I O N
2 EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
3 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
4 Q Mr . MacLean, you u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u ' r e s t i l l
5 u n d e r o a t h ?
6 A C o r r e c t .
7 Q An d d u r i n g t h e l u nc h b r e a k , d i d yo u d i s c u s s
8 y o u r t e s t i m o n y w i t h anyone?
9 A Only my Cou ns e l .
10 Q Dur ing t h e b r e a k , I , yo u h a d t a k e a look a t
11 what w e ' r e m a r k i n g a s E x h i b i t 9 .
12 ( E x h i b i t 9 wa s marked by t h e
13 r e p o r t e r f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )
14 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
15 Q Do yo u r e c o g n i z e t h a t document?
16 A Yes .
17 Q What i s i t , f i r s t ?
18 A I t ' s a t r a n s c r i p t o f my i n t e r v i e w w i t h t h e
19 ICE/OPR.
20 Q Why d i d you r e q u e s t a t r a n s c r i p t o f y o u r
21 i n t e r v i e w w i t h ICE/OPR?
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 Q P r i o r t o r e q u e s t i n g a copy o f t h e t r a n s c r i p t ,
2 yo u h ad s i g n e d an a f f i d a v i t a s p a r t o f t h a t ICE/OPR
3 i n v e s t i g a t i o n , c o r r e c t ?
4 A Ye s .
5 Q Was t h e r e a s o n f o r r e q u e s t i n g t h e t r a n s c r i p t
6 wa s t h a t y ou b e l i e v e d y o u r a f f i d a v i t t o be i n a c c u r a t e ?
7 A Yeah , I b e l i e v e t h e r e was s o m e t h i n g i n t h e r e
8 t h a t I f o r g o t t o a dd t o t h e a f f i d a v i t . B u t on f u r t h e r
9 r e v i e w, t h e r e w a s n ' t .
10 Q Do you t h e n b e l i e v e t h e t r a n s c r i p t s t h a t a r e
11 s e t o u t i n E x h i b i t 9 t o be a c c u r a t e ?
12 A Yes .
13 Q I 'd l i k e t h e r e c o r d t o r e f l e c t t h a t t h e
14 t r a n s c r i p t d o e s c o n t a i n some r e d a c t i o n s ; i s t h a t
15 c o r r e c t ?
16 A C o r r e c t .
17 Q Do you have a r e c o l l e c t i o n o f w h a t t h o s e
18 r e d a c t i o n s w e r e ?
19 A Ye s .
20 Q What would t h a t have been?
21 A Names.
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Page 11 3
1 t h a t a n y t h i n g e l s e wa s r edac ted a s i d e from t hese?
2 A No, I d o n ' t .
3 Q Le t me have yo u look a t what w e ' l l mark as
4 E x h i b i t 10.
5 (Exh ib i t 10 wa s marked by th e
6 r e p o r t e r f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )
7 BY MS . CALAGUAS:
8 Q Have you r ev i ewed t h e document?
9 A I have .
10 Q I s t h a t your s i g n a t u r e on th e l a s t page of the
11 document?
12 A Yes, i t i s .
13 Q What i s th e document, f o r t h e r e c o r d ?
14 A Ass igned a f f i d a v i t t h a t I gave t o the o f f i c e
15 of ICE and OPR.
16 Q During your i n t e rv iew w i t h ICE/OPR, you
17 d i s c u s s e d how yo u f e l t t h a t TSA, o r I shou ld say i n
18 t h i s c a s e , t h a t th e FAMS h i g h e r l e v e l employees made
19 SSI d i s c l o s u r e s ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
20 A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .
21 Q What d i d yo u mean by t h a t ?
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1 p r o j e c t s .
2 Q S p e c i f i c a l l y , what type of i n f o r m a t i o n d i d you
3 b e l i e v e t h a t FAMS employees - - w e l l , l e t me b a c k t r a c k
4 f o r a s e c o n d .
5 Which FAMS employees d id you b e l i e v e were
6 d i s c l o s i n g SSI?
7A
Thomas Quinn, David Adams, an d anybody e l s e
8 who wa s i n t h e P u b l i c I n f o r m a t i o n o f f i c e o r t h e O f f i c e
9 o f t h e D i r e c t o r .
10 Q What d id you c a l l Adams' o f f i c e , b y t h e way,
11 P u b l i c - -
12 A I t h i n k i t ' s t h e P u b l i c A f f a i r s o f f i c e .
13 Q What SS I wa s be ing d i s c l o s e d by any o f t h e
14 i n d i v i d u a l s t h a t you had i d e n t i f i e d ?
15 A C h e c k p o i n t s b y p a s s i n g p r o c e d u r e s , a i r c r a f t
16 b o a r d i n g p r o c e d u r e s , mandatory h o t e l p o l i c y , d r e s s i n g
17 and grooming c o d e s , FAM t a c t i c s , s e a t a s s i g n m e n t s ,
18 numbers o f FAMS on a i r c r a f t . Type o f weapon us ed b y
19 A ir Mar sha l s . Type o f t r a i n i n g c o n d u c t e d by A ir
20 M a r s h a l s . How t h e A i r M a r s h a l s r e a c t t o a g i v e n
21 s i t u a t i o n caused by a b ad e l e m e n t o r t e r r o r i s t s .
22 I t h i n k t h a t c ov e r s e v e r y t h i n g .
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1 Q Can you r e c o l l e c t t h a t no w w i t h o u t hav ing t o
2 t a k e a l o o k a t any documents?
3 A Yes .
4 Q So, t h a t ' s y o u r unde r s t and ing , t hen , a s t o
5 what you b e l i e v e d t h a t t h e s e i n d i v i d u a l s were
6 d i s c l o s i n g a s SSI?
7 A C o r r e c t .
8 Q How do you know t h a t t h a t l i s t o f i n f o r m a t i o n
9 i s SSI?
10 A B e c a u s e i t compromised FAM i d e n t i t y , t a c t i c s ,
11 o p e r a t i o n s , p r o c e d u r e s on n a t i o n a l t e l e v i s i o n .
12 Q Are you r e l y i n g on any p a r t i c u l a r document i n
13 d e t e r m i n i n g whe the r o r n o t t h a t l i s t i s 88I?
14 A No , I 'm r e l y i n g on t h e f a c t t h a t I used t o be
15 an A ir Marsha l , an d t h e s e were i s s u e s t h a t compromised
16 my p o s i t i o n on a d a i l y b a s i s . And a l s o p e o p l e t h a t I
17 worked w i t h .
18 Q Your i n t e r v i e w w i t h ICE/OPR t ook p l a c e on o r
19 a b o u t May 4 t h , 2005?
20 A C o r r e c t .
21 Q So, a t t h a t t ime , i n may 2005 , you b e l i e v e d
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1 d i s c l o s e d SSI?
2 A They d i s c l o s e d s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n
3 b y t h e i r d e f i n i t i o n .
4 Q When do you b e l i e v e " they d i s c l o s e d SSI by
5 t h e i r d e f i n i t i o n " ?
6 A Numerous t i m e s . They were on CNN, ABC News,
7 FOX News, NBC, Time Magazine , Pe op l e Magazine . To t e l l
8 you t he e x a c t d a t e s o f when t h o s e programs a i r e d , I
9 d o n ' t r e c a l l . I b e l i e v e t h e r e c o r d h as a l l t h a t
10 i n f o r m a t i o n . I j u s t d o n ' t know o f f t h e top o f my head .
11 I j u s t know t h e ne tw orks t h a t t h e y d i v u l g e d
12 and i n f o r m a t i o n .
13 Q Do you t h i n k you can p l a c e t h a t d i s c l o s u r e as
14 e a r l y a s 2003?
15 A No, I d o n ' t remember. P r i o r to t h a t , i t
16 probab ly s t a r t e d - - I b e l i e v e i t s t a r t e d b e f o r e t h a t ,
17 y e s .
18 Q B e f o r e 2003?
19 A C o r r e c t .
20 Q So, a t t h e t ime t h a t you s h a r e d t h e t e x t
21 message w i t h Brock Meeks i n l a t e J u l y o f 2003, you were
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1 A f f a i r s o f f i c e d i s c l o s i n g 88 1 t h emse lv e s?
2 A Yes . I 'm n o t s u r e i t wa s a t t h e t i m e t h e - - I
3 b e l i e v e t h a t was u n d e r T8A.
4 Yes , I b e l i e v e t h a t th e D i r e c t o r s o f f i c e a nd
5 t h e P u b l i c A f f a i r s o f f i c e wa s d i v u l g i n g s e n s i t i v e
6 i n f o r m a t i o n .
7 Q An d you b e l i e v e t h a t b e c a u s e t h e y i d e n t i f i e d
8 t h e i n f o r m a t i o n a s s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n when
9 t h e y w e r e d i v u l g i n g i t ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
10 A I d o n ' t know i f - - by t h e d e f i n i t i o n s t h a t t h e
11 a g e n c y h a s g i v e n me o f t h e i r d e f i n i t i o n o f 881 , t h a t ' s
12 what I c o n c l u d e d .
13 Q And, a g a i n , y o u r c o n c l u s i o n wa s made b e f o r e
14 you met w i t h Brock Meeks i n J u l y o f 2003?
15 A C o r r e c t .
16 Q D id you b e l i e v e t h a t t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t was
17 d i s c l o s e d - - s t r i k e t h a t . i;;,
1I8 Do you know who David Grayson i s ?
19 A I b e l i e v e h e ' s somebody t h a t h a n d l e s t h e
20 c l a s s i f i c a t i o n o f m a t e r i a l a t h e a d q u a r t e r s .
21 Q How d i d y ou become aware o f t h a t ?
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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1 Q Did you have a ny d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h Mr . Grayson
2 eve r?
3 A No .
4 Q You b e l i e v e t h a t y o u ' r e a w h i s t l e b lower,
5 c o r r e c t ?
6 A I am a w h i s t l e b lo wer, c o r r e c t .
7 Q So, when d i d you f i r s t engage i n w h i s t l e
8 b l o w ing a c t i v i t y , as you unde r s t and i t ?
9 A When I r e p o r t e d t o Brock Meeks t h a t t h e age nc y
10 wa s b r e a k i n g t h e law i n J u l y o f 2003 , a t th e same t ime
11 t h a t Homeland S e c u r i t y i s s u e d a memo on J u l y 6 t h t h a t
12 t e r r o r i s t s wanted t o h i g h j a c k f l i g h t s l e a v i n g t h e E a s t
13 C o a s t , a nd h i d i n g weapons i n camer a s .
14 Q Righ t a round th e same p e r i o d o f t i m e , do you
15 remember t h e FAMS D i r e c t o r s o f f i c e i s s u i n g any memos
16 a b o u t s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n , whe the r by wa y o f
17 an e - m a i l o r - -
18 A Not s p e c i f i c a l l y , I d o n ' t remember.
19 Q Do you remember b e i n g n o t i f i e d by an y
20 s u p e r v i s o r ?
21 A I 'm s o r r y ?
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1 remember any s u p e r v i s o r i n fo rming yo u t h a t - - w e l l ,
2 s a y i n g a n y t h i n g a b o u t SSI a t t h i s p o i n t ?
3 A I s i g n e d a document s t a t i n g t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d
4 what SSI i s , a s you p r e s e n t e d t o me e a r l i e r .
5 Q You s p e c i f i c a l l y remember s i g n i n g t h a t
6 document i n l a t e J u l y o f 20D3?
7 A No.
8 Q A t some p o i n t , you d id?
9 A I ' l l concede t h a t I s i g n e d t h e document. I
10 j u s t d o n ' t remember s i g n i n g i t .
11 Q But yo u remember some s o r t o f memo from DHS?
12 A Yes .
13 Q So, t h a t ' s t h e p e r i o d o f t ime t h a t I 'm t a l k i n g
14 abou t , t hen . You d e s c r i b e d t h a t a s b e i n g l i k e a round
15 J u l y 25 th o r so ?
16 A T h a t wa s what th e i n t e l l i g e n c e i n f o r m a t i o n
17 s a i d , an d I g o t t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n from t h e news
18 a r t i c l e s .
19 When t h i s wa s passed down a s i n t e l l i g e n c e
20 i n f o r m a t i o n t o A ir Marsha l s , i t c o u l d have been a ny
21 t ime b e f o r e J u l y 26 th .
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1 i n t e l l i g e n c e i n f o r m a t i o n o f F e d e r a l A i r Mar sh a l s ?
2 A T h a t ' s a p o s s i b i l i t y .
3 Q Do you remember r e c e i v i n g i t a s i n t e l l i g e n c e
4 i n f o r m a t i o n ?
5 A I d o n ' t remember.
6 Q R i g h t a b o u t t h e t ime t h a t you became a w a r e o f
7 t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n , t h i s i n t e l i n f o r m a t i o n , do you
8 remember any f u r t h e r d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t S S I , w h e t h e r i t
9 be t h r o u g h a memo from t h e d i r e c t o r o r from y o u r
10 s u p e r v i s o r s ?
11 A No, I d o n ' t .
12 Q So, w e r e t h e r e any o t h e r a c t i o n s by you t h a t
13 you c o n s i d e r e d t o be w h i s t l e b lowin g b e f o r e s p e a k i n g
14 w i t h B r o c k Meeks i n ab ou t J u l y o f 2003?
15 A No, n o t t h a t I remember.
16 Q A s i d e from t h e ICE/OPR i n v e s t i g a t i o n , d i d you
17 i n f o r m anyone w i t h i n FAMS, t h a t yo u ha d d i s c u s s e d t h e
18 c o n t e n t s o f t h a t t e x t message t o Brock Meeks?
19 A Yes . I n s i d e t h e FAM s e r v i c e ?
20 Q Yes .
21 A No, I d i d n o t d i s c u s s i t w i t h anybody. We l l ,
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1 Q I 'm s a y i n g FAM s e r v i c e , b e c a u s e I 'm n o t s u r e
2 if t h e FAMS w e r e w i t h ICE o r w i t h TSA?
3 A L e t ' s s a y FAM S e r v i c e . I t ' s k i n d o f c o n f u s i n g
4 b e t w e e n F-A-M-S an d r e g u l a r FAMS, FAM S e r v i c e a nd FAMS.
5 Q So , w i t h i n th e FAM S e r v i c e , y ou d i d n o t
6 d i s c l o s e t h a t y ou h a d s h a r e d t h e c o n t e n t ?
7 A C o r r e c t .
8 Q You d i d n ' t d i s c l o s e a n y t h i n g a b o u t Brock
9 Meeks?
10 A C o r r e c t .
11 Q So, wa s i t t h e ICE/aPR i n v e s t i g a t i o n t h a t
12 would h a v e b e e n t h e f i r s t t ime yo u d i s c l o s e d t h a t w i t h
13 anyone i n t h e agency?
14 A Ye s . I was t o l d b y t h e i n v e s t i g a t o r s d u r i n g
15 t h e i n t e r v i e w t o d i s c l o s e a l l co r r e spondence w i t h B r o c k
16 Meeks.
17 Q D id you engage i n an y o t h e r w h i s t l e b lo wi ng "
!
18 a c t i v i t y ?
19 A P r i o r t o when?
20 Q At an y t i m e .
21 A I ' v e w r i t t e n- -
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1 A f f a i r s , t o t h e TSA, an d t o t h e O f f i c e o f P r o f e s s i o n a l
2 R e s p o n s i b i l i t y o f ICE, t o my Congressman and t o my
3 S e n a t o r s .
4 Q A f t e r t h e B r o c k Meeks i n c i d e n t , when was t h e
5 n e x t t ime you e n g a g e d i n w h i s t l e b lowi ng a c t i v i t i e s , a s
6 yo u u n d e r s t a n d i t ?
7 A I d o n ' t remember.
8 Q With t h e e n t i t i e s t h a t y o u ' v e d e s c r i b e d a s
9 e n t i t i e s t h a t y o u ' v e d i s c l o s e d w h i s t l e b lowin g a c t i v i t y
10 t o , w h a t d i d you t a l k ab ou t ? In o t h e r words , w h a t w e r e
11 y ou w h i s t l e b lowing a b o u t , a s you u n d e r s t a n d i t ?
12 A Checkpo in t bypas s ing p r o c e d u r e s , a i r c r a f t
13 b o a r d i n g p r o c e d u r e s , d r e s s an d grooming c o d e s ,
14 ma n d a to ry h o t e l p o l i c y , and t h e FAM S e r v i c e
15 Management ' s c o n s t a n t d e s i r e t o d i v u l g e s e n s i t i v e
16 i n f o r m a t i o n - -
17 MR . NOONE: Slow down b e c a u s e s h e h a s t o
18 r e c o r d y o u r t e s t i m o n y.
19 TH E WITNESS: I 'm s o r r y - - t o news
20 o r g a n i z a t i o n s , such a s CNN and NBC
21 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
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1 c o r r e c t ?
2 A Yes .
3 Q A g a i n , t h a t i n v e s t i g a t i o n o r your i n t e r v i e w i n
4 t h a t i n v e s t i g a t i o n was a rou nd May o f 'OS?
5 A C o r r e c t .
6 Q So, d i d you e n g a g e i n w h i s t l e b l owing a c t i v i t y
7 b e f o r e May o f 'OS?
8 A I d o n ' t remember when I f i l e d t h e r e p o r t s .
9 Q A s i d e from f i l i n g t h o s e r e p o r t s - - w e r e t h e y
10 w r i t t e n r e p o r t s by t h e way?
11 A .Some w e r e w r i t t e n , some w e r e o r a l .
12 Q The w r i t t e n r e p o r t s , you p r o v i d e d t h a t t o me
13 t h r o u g h y o u r a t t o r n e y, c o r r e c t ?
14 A No . I b e l i e v e t h e a g e n c y h a s a f i l e o f a l l o f
15 them, b u t I b e l i e v e I ' v e g i v e n y ou a l l my OIG a n d aP R
16 c o m p l a i n t s and a lA .
17 Q Did you make an y w r i t t e n c o m p l a i n t s t h a t yo u
18 d i d n ' t o t h e r w i s e keep a c o p y o f f o r y o u r s e l f ?
19 A No . S o r r y, no, n o t t h a t I c an remember.
20 Q So, you ma y have f i l e d a w r i t t e n c o m p l a i n t b u t
21 yo u d i d n ' t keep a copy o f i t ?
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1 Q When you s a y t h e agency would have ha d a copy
2 o f t h i s , w h i c h a g e n c y a r e y ou t a l k i n g a b o u t ?
3 A The D e p a r t m e n t o f Homeland S e c u r i t y . U n l e s s
4 t h e r e p o r t s t h a t I s e n t t o c o n g r e s s , t h o s e a r e f i l e d
5 w i t h C o n g r e s s .
6 Q Do y ou s p e c i f i c a l l y remember s e n d i n g a r e p o r t
7 a nd f i l i n g a r e p o r t t o C o n g r e s s ?
8 A Ye s .
9 Q Can you d e s c r i b e t h a t t o me?
10 A I t was t h e copy t h a t you p r o v i d e d me from
11 S e n a t o r Reed .
12 Q I n t e r m s o f y o u r r e p o r t s t o Cong re s s , w e r e
13 t h e r e a n y o t h e r s a s i d e from t h e o n e s t o S e n a t o r Reed?
14 A I t ' s p o s s i b l e , b u t I d o n ' t remember. I know
15 o f t h a t on e b e c a u s e t h a t was a copy you p r o v i d e d f o r
16 me.
17 Q Did you e v e r l e t Mr . D o n z a n t i know t h a t you
18 h a d made t h e s e c o m p l a i n t s - - s o r r y, t h a t ' s my word .
19 Your word was r e p o r t s - - t o c o n g r e s s o r t o OIG o r t o
20 IA ?
21 A I do n o t r e c a l l s p e c i f i c a l l y d o i n g s o .
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1 y o u r r e p o r t s a t any t i m e ?
2 A Yes .
3 Q Why do you have t h a t b e l i e f ?
4 A B e c a u s e o f my p o s i t i o n wi th FLEOA, t h e F e d e r a l
5 Law E n f o r c e m e n t O f f i c e r s A s s o c i a t i o n , F-L-E-O-A. I t
6 was a p u b l i c and h i g h v i s i b l e p o s i t i o n .
7 Q We l l , w e r e you making i t p u b l i c l y known t h a t
8 you were f i l i n g a r e p o r t wi th S e n a t o r Reed , f o r
9 example?
10 A N o.
11 Q Did you l e t Mr . Don za n t i know t h a t you were
12 f i l i n g a r e p o r t w i t h S e n a t o r Reed?
13 A N o.
14 Q D id y ou l e t anyone know a t t h e Los Ang e l e s
15 f i e l d o f f i c e t h a t you were f i l i n g a r e p o r t w i t h S e n a t o r
16 Reed?
17 A Frank T u r e r r i .
18 Q Frank T u r e r r i i s n o t p a r t o f t h e management a t
19 t h e f i e l d o f f i c e i n Los Ange l e s?
20 A C o r r e c t .
21 Q When I ' m a s k i n g my q u e s t i o n , I ' m s a y i n g t h a t
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1 L e t me a l s o a s k y ou whe th e r yo u h ad i n fo rm ed
2 a n y management o f f i c i a l a t t h e Los A n g e l e s f i e l d o f f i c e
3 t h a t y ou ha d f i l e d a r e p o r t w i t h S e n a t o r Reed?
4 A No .
5 Q When I r ev i ew ed t h e r e c o r d , t h e d a t e s o f t h e
6 r e p o r t s t o IA/OIG an d S e n a t o r Reed were i n 'OS.
7 Do y ou b e l i e v e t h a t yo u h a d r e p o r t s f i l e d t o
8 an y o f t h e s e e n t i t i e s b e f o r e 2005?
9 A I d o n ' t know.
10 Q Do y o u b e l i e v e t h a t a n y management l e v e l
11 o f f i c i a l a t t h e Los A n g e l e s f i e l d o f f i c e was a w a r e o f
12 y o u r r e p o r t t o IA ?
13 A I do n o t know.
14 Q An d when you s a y " lA , " a r e yo u r e f e r r i n g t o
15 TSA's IA ?
16 A TSA's lA, c o r r e c t .
17 Q Do y ou b e l i e v e t h a t an y management l e v e l
Ii18 o f f i c i a l a t t h e Los A n g e l e s f i e l d o f f i c e was a w a r e o f
19 y o u r r e p o r t t o t h e OIG?
20 A I do n o t know.
21Q Now,
t h i s r e p o r t t o t h eOIG
i s d i f f e r e n t from
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Page 127
1 h ad c a l l e d a b o u t RON m i s s i o n s , c o r r e c t ?
2 A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .
3 Q What was t h i s r e p o r t t o t h e OIG a b o u t ?
4 A Checkpo in t b y p a s s p r o c e d u r e s , a i r c r a f t
5 b o a r d i n g p r o c e d u r e s , d r e s s grooming c o d e s , m a n d a t o r y
6 h o t e l p o l i c y , a n d t h e FAM S e r v i c e management ' s c o n s t a n t
7 d e s i r e t o d i v u l g e SSI t o news o r g a n i z a t i o n s .
8 Q F o r a ny o f t h e s e e n t i t i e s do you b e l i e v e t h a t
9 you were r e p o r t i n g a n y t h i n g e l s e beyond w h a t you w o u l d
10 h a v e p u t i n t h e w r i t t e n r e p o r t t h a t you s u b m i t t e d t o
11 them?
12 A I do n o t know.
13 Q Yo u d o n ' t know o r you d o n ' t r e c a l l ?
14 A I d o n ' t r e c a l l . I d o n ' t remember. Unle s s I
15 h a v e t h e documents b e f o r e me , I c a n n o t make a n y I;
16 s p e c i f i c r e c o l l e c t i o n s .
17 Q An y o t h e r a c t i v i t y t h a t you c o n s i d e r t o b e
18 w h i s t l e b l o w i n g t h a t y ou e n g a g e d i n ?
19 A I c a n ' t remember. At t h i s p o i n t , I d o n ' t
20 know.
21 Q Did you c o n s i d e r y o u r a p p e a r a n c e on NBC
:i
b b l i ?
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1 A Ye s .
2 Q How s o ?
3 A I wa s r e p o r t i n g c h e c k p o i n t b y p a s s p r o c e d u r e s ,
4 a i r c r a f t b o a r d i n g p r o c e d u r e s , d r e s s an d grooming c o d e s ,
5 m a n d a t o r y h o t e l p o l i c y , an d t h e FAM S e r v i c e
6 M a n a g e m e n t ' s d e s i r e t o c o n s t a n t l y d i v u l g e s e n s i t i v e
7 s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .
8 Q Yo u saw t h a t e p i s o d e o f NBC N i g h t l y News when
9 t h i s a i r e d , c o r r e c t ?
10 A Yes .
11 Q The p a r t t h a t a i r e d w h i c h c o n t a i n e d y o u r
12 a p p e a r a n c e , d i d t h a t i n c l u d e e v e r y t h i n g t h a t y ou j u s t
13 s a i d ?
14 A Yes - - b u t I ' m n o t s u r e . I h a v e t o r e a d t h e
15 t r a n s c r i p t t o know e x a c t l y , b u t t h o s e a r e t h e g e n e r a l
16 i s s u e s .
17 Q Do y o u know o f a n y management l e v e l o f f i c i a l
18 a t t h e Los A n g e l e s f i e l d o f f i c e was aware o f t h e n a t u r e
19 o f y o u r a p p e a r a n c e on NBC N i g h t l y News i n 2004?
20 A They d i d n o t know.
21MR . NOONE:
A t w h a t t i m e a r e y o u t a l k i n g
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1 BY MS. CALAGUAS:
2 Q I 'm t a l k i n g a b o u t a t any t i m e a t t h i s p o i n t .
3 A I do n o t know.
4 Q You d i d n o t make them s p e c i f i c a l l y a w a r e - -
5 A No.
6 Q - - t h a t yo u ap pea re d on NBC N i g h t l y News?
7 A No . The o n l y t im e t h e a g e n c y knew o f my
8 a c t i v i t i e s i s when I co mp le t ed t h i s a f f i d a v i t i n May o f
9 2005 .
10 Q When you sa y "a ge ncy, " who a r e you r e f e r r i n g
11 to ?
12 A ICE/OPR.
13 Q So, l e t me make s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d .
14 A The D e p a r t m e n t o f Homeland S e c u r i t y , ICE/OPR.
15 Q So , y o u ' r e s a y i n g t h a t when you p r o v i d e d y o u r
16 a f f i d a v i t , t h a t ' s when ICE/OPR became aware o f t h e
17 a c t i v i t y t h a t you c o n s i d e r e d t o b e w h i s t l e b l o w i n g ; i s
18 t h a t c o r r e c t ?
19 A No , t h a t ' s when I a d m i t t e d t o my a c t i v i t i e s .
20 Q I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h a t ' s when you s a y y ou
21 a d m i t t e d t oi t ,
b u t I 'm t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d y o u r
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1 d e p e n d i n g on where t h e FAMS b e l o n g e d , who would h a v e
2 been aware o f y o u r w h i s t l e blowing a c t i v i t y a s you
3 u n d e r s t a n d i t ?
4 A P r o b a b l y a s h o r t t i m e a f t e r S e p t e m b e r 9 t h o f
5 2004 .
6 Q Yo u b e l i e v e t h a t i n d i v i d u a l s w i t h i n t h e agency
7 would h a v e b e e n aware?
8 A They d i d know. They r e c o g n i z e d my v o i c e on
9 n a t i o n a l t e l e v i s i o n . T h a t ' s when t h ey knew o f my
10 w h i s t l e b l o w i n g a c t i v i t i e s .
11 Q Th e w h i s t l e b l o w i n g a c t i v i t y t h a t y ou b e l i e v e d
12 i n v o l v i n g y o u r a p p e a r a n c e on NBC N i g h t l y News?
13 A C o r r e c t .
14 Q W h a t ' s a n SPG member?
15 A I b e l i e v e i t ' s a h o t e l , a h o t e l membersh ip .
16 Q J u s t g i v e me a s e c o n d . We ' r e a l m o s t a t t h e
17 home s t r e t c h . Okay?
18 A Take y o u r t i m e .
19 Q I n y o u r a f f i d a v i t t o ICE/OPR, you made a
20 r e f e r e n c e t o NBC p r o d u c e r s Tom C o s t e l l o a n d M a r i a
21 G a r c i a f rom New York?
22 A T h a t i s c o r r e c t .
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Page 131
1 Q T h a t NY, I g u e s s New York, New York c o n d u c t e d
2 y o u r i n t e r v i e w o v e r a phone l i n e .
3 I g u e s s I 'm c o n f u s e d by t h a t . Were you
4 b e i n g - - you a p p e a r e d on NBC N i g h t l y News i n - p e r s o n ,
5 b u t you were b e i n g i n t e r v i e w e d by t e l e p h o n e ?
6 A Yeah, i t was done by a r e m o t e . T h e r e was a
7crew
t h a t was , t h a t d i d t h e i n t e r v i e won
l o c a t i o n ,and
8 i t wa s done t h r o u g h - - I had an e a r p i e c e t h a t was m i c ' d
9 i n t o t h e New York s t u d i o s .
10 Q Were t h e r e p a r t s o f y o u r i n t e r v i e w t h a t were
11 n o t a i r e d , a s f a r a s you can t e l l ?
12 A T h a t ' s a v e r y good p o s s i b i l i t y , due t o
13 e d i t i n g .
14 Q How l o n g d i d y o u r i n t e r v i e w l a s t ?
15 A I d o n ' t r emember. I t wa s a t l e a s t a n h o u r
16 l o n g .
17 Q Do you b e l i e v e t h a t t h e r e a r e o t h e r F e d e r a l
18 A i r M a r s h a l s wh o t h e agency d i d n o t remove f o r
19 d i s c l o s i n g S8 1 a b o u t remain o v e r n i g h t m i s s i o n s ?
20 A A c c o r d i n g t o an I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l R e p o r t ,
21 t h e r e were A i r M a r s h a l s who were a s k e d t o r e s i g n due t o
22 t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y ha d d i v u l g e d s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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Page 132
1 i n f o r m a t i o n , b u t t h e y were n o t removed b y t h e a g e n c y.
2 They r e s i g n e d on t h e i r own.
3 Q A n y t h i n g e l s e ?
4 A Nope.
5 Q The Brock Meeks a r t i c l e s u g g e s t s t h a t more
6 t h a n one F e d e r a l A i r Marsha l spoke t o Meeks a b o u t t h e
7 c a n c e l l a t i o n o f RON m i s s i o n s .
8 Do you r e c a l l t h a t p a r t o f t h e a r t i c l e ?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Do you b e l i e v e t h a t t h e a g e n c y i s aware o f any
11 o t h e r F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s , a s i d e f rom y o u r s e l f , who
12 s h a r e d t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h e t e x t message r e g a r d i n g RON
13 m i s s i o n s w i t h B r o c k Meeks?
14 A I do n o t know.
15 Q Do you know o f an y F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s wh o
16 s h a r e d t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h a t t e x t message , t h a t same
17 t e x t message w i t h Brock Meeks?
18 A No .
19 Q Did you e n g a g e i n an y w h i s t l e b l o w i n g
20 a c t i v i t y , a s you u n d e r s t a n d i t , t h r o u g h p o s t i n g s on an
21 I n t e r n e t b u l l e t i n ?
22 A No .
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
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Page 133
1 Q When speak ing abou t cong re s s i n your r e p o r t s
2 t o c o n g r e s s , we 've t a l k e d a b o u t S e n a t o r Reed.
3 Would t h e r e have been any o t h e r S e n a t o r s o r
4 e l e c t e d o f f i c i a l s ?
5 A Yes .
6 Q Who would t h a t ha ve been t h a t you would have
7 made a r e p o r t i n g to ?
8 A Barba ra Boxer, S e n a t o r from C a l i f o r n i a .
9 S e n a t o r Diane F e i n s t e i n o f C a l i f o r n i a . Joh n Ings t rom
10 o f Nevada . Congressman J im Givens of Nevada .
11 Congressman Ke n C a l v e r t of C a l i f o r n i a .
12 The re cou ld be more , b u t t h o s e a r e t h e ones
13 t h a t I r e c a l l o f f t h e top o f my hea d .
14 Q I d o n ' t know my e l e c t e d o f f i c i a l s , so i s John
15 Ings t rom from Nevada, i s he a Sena to r?
16 A John Ings t rom i s a S e n a t o r f o r Nevada .
17 Q So, each o f t h e s e e l e c t e d o f f i c i a l s you made a
18 r e p o r t i n g t o i n d i v i d u a l l y ?
19 A Through c o r r e s p o n d e n c e , y e s .
20 Q And what would t h i s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e have been
21 abou t?
22 A A ir Marshal checkpo in t by pas s d
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1 a i r c r a f t boa rd ing procedures , d r e s s i n g and grooming
2 codes , mandatory h o t e l p o l i c y, and the s e r v i c e ' s
3 c o n s t a n t d e s i r e t o d ivu lge s e n s i t i v e i n fo rma t ion to
4 news o r g a n i z a t i o n s and th e p u b l i c .
5 Q Did you r e p o r t t o any member o f Congress ,
6 w he the r a Sena to r o r r e p r e s e n t a t i v e , any th ing abou t RON
7 miss ions?
8 A No, I d id n o t .
9 Q In you r a f f i d a v i t to ICE/aPR, on th e l a s t
10 page , you make a r e f e r e n c e t o "Congressmen."
11 Do you se e t h a t r e f e r e n c e on Page 4 o f E x h i b i t
12 10?
13 A Yes. Due t o th e f a c t t h a t my cha in o f command
14 o f DHS/OIG and my Congressmen a l l i gno red my
15 compla in t s , i t ' s t h a t I forwarded compla in t s t o my
16 Congressman.
17 I d i d n ' t know a t th e t i me , as I 'm r e a d i n g
18 t h i s , t h a t I most l i k e l y in formed the Congressmen.
19 Q Well , when y o u ' r e r e f e r r i n g t o compla in t s
20 w i t h i n the c o n t e x t o f " t h i s " ?
·2 1 A Oh, I 'm r e f e r r i n g - - y e s , I 'm r e f e r r i n g no t t o
22 t he l ong-hau l f l i g h t s . I 'm r e f e r r i n g on ly t o t h e - - to
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1 t h e c h e c k p o i n t b y p a s s p r o c e d u r e s , a i r c r a f t b o a r d i n g
2 p r o c e d u r e s , d r e s s an d grooming c o d e s , m a n d a t o r y h o t e l
3 p o l i c y , and t h e FAM S e r v i c e s m a n a g e m e n t ' s c o n s t a n t
4 d e s i r e t o d i v u l g e s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .
5 Q So t h a t I - -
6 A I was s p e a k i n g i n t o t h a t i n r e g a r d s t o t h o s e
7 i s s u e s , n o t t h e RON m i s s i o n s .
8 Q So t h a t I 'm c l e a r , t h e n , t h o s e i s s u e s , and
9 w e ' r e l u m p i n g them t o g e t h e r f o r p u r p o s e s o f o u r
10 d i s c u s s i o n , t h o s e were c o m p l a i n t s t h a t yo u h ad b e f o r e
11 J u l y o f 2003?
12 A No, t h e y were c o m p l a i n t s I h ad p r i o r t o
13 a u t h o r i n g t h i s a f f i d a v i t .
14 The IC E I n v e s t i g a t o r s t o l d me t h a t i n my f i n a l
15 s t a t e m e n t , I c o u l d d i s c u s s a n y t h i n g t h a t I s o d e s i r e d
16 o u t s i d e o f t h e a l l e g a t i o n s .
17 Q Did you have t h e s e c o m p l a i n t s , t h e n , a f t e r
18 J u l y o f 2003, b u t b e f o r e y o u r i n t e r v i e w i n May o f 'OS?
19 A Yes .
20 Q B ut n o t b e f o r e J u l y 2003?
21 A I ' m n o t s u r e . I ' m s u r e I d i d h a v e c o m p l a i n t s
22 w i t h my c h a i n o f command.
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1 W h e t h e r I f i l e d r e p o r t s on i t, I d o n ' t r e c a l l ,
2 b u t i t wa s d e f i n i t e l y an i s s u e be tween me and my c h a i n
3 o f command.
4 T h i s i s why I went t o t h e media b e c a u s e t h e
5 c h a i n o f command i g n o r e d any c ompla in t s an d o n l y
6 r e t a l i a t e d a g a i n s t t h o s e t h a t made an y k i n d o f
7c o m p l a i n t s .
8 Q So, b e f o r e J u l y o f ' 0 3 , you were making a l l
9 t h e s e c o m p l a i n t s t o y o u r c h a i n o f command?
10 A Yes .
11 Q An d no one e l s e ?
12 A I do n o t know if I f i l e d c o m p l a i n s w i t h OIG,
13 aPR, o r a l A , b u t I do know I v o c a l i z e d t h e s e com pl a in t s
14 w i t h t h e c h a i n o f command.
15 Q We l l , i n v o c a l i z i n g y o u r c o m p l a i n t s t o t h e
16 c h a i n o f command, t h i s would h a v e b e e n a t Las Vegas
17 now, c o r r e c t ?
18 A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .
19 Q Did you i n d i c a t e t o them t h a t you were a l s o
20 making t h e s e compla in t s o u t s i d e o f t h e c h a i n o f
21 command?
22 A No .
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Page 138
1 A No .
2 Q In y o u r a f f i d a v i t t o ICE/OPR, yo u d e s c r i b e
3 Brock Meeks a s a c r e d i b l e and r e s p o n s i b l e media
4 r e p r e s e n t a t i v e .
5 Do you u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ?
6 A Yes .
7 Q What d i d yo u mean by t h a t ?
8 A J u s t by r e a d i n g h i s p r i o r work . He l o o k e d
9 l i k e somebody who i s g e n u i n e l y c o n c e r n e d w i t h p r o b l e m s
10 o f th e A ir Marsha l S e r v i c e .
11 He was v e r y wel l -known among t h e a v i a t i o n
12 s e c u r i t y community f o r h i s r e p o r t i n g , an d I f e l t h e was
13 r e s p o n s i b l e enough t o w r i t e t h i s a r t i c l e .
14 Q Did you have an e x p e c t a t i o n o f Meeks t o s e n s o r
15 h i m s e l f i n t e r m s o f t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t you may have
16 g i v e n him i n how he p r e s e n t e d t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n i n an y
17 news a r t i c l e t h a t he wa s r e p o r t i n g ?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Did you e x p e c t Meeks t o i d e n t i f y w h e t h e r t h e
20 i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t you gave him sho u l d remain
21 c o n f i d e n t i a l ?
22 A As f a r a s t h e RON m i s s i o n s ?
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1 Q Yes.
2 A No, I expec t ed him to p u b l i c i z e i t .
3 MS. CALAGUAS: I have no f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s .
4 MR. NOONE: Great . I have no q u e s t i o n s .
5 MS. CALAGUAS: Thank you fo r your t ime .
6 We a re o ff t h e r eco rd a t 2:40 p.m.
7 (Whereupon, a t 2:40 p.m. , th e d e p o s i t i o n wa s
8 concluded. )
9 * * * * *
10
11
12 I have r ead the foregoing pages , which a r e a
13 c o r r e c t t r a n s c r i p t of t h e answers g iven by me t o t h e
14 q u e s t i o n s t h e r e i n recorded.
15
16
17 Deponent __________________________________ _
18
19 Date ________________________________ ___
20
21
22
8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006
http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/fake-whistleblower-robert-maclean-fired-air-marshal-sworn-deposition- 141/141
Page 140
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 The u n d e r s i g n e d C e r t i f i e d S h o r t h a n d R e p o r t e r
3 l i c e n s e d i n t h e S t a t e o f C a l i f o r n i a d o e s h e r e b y
4 c e r t i f y :
5 T h a t t h e f o r eg o ing d e p o s i t i o n wa s t a k e n b e f o r e
6 me a t t h e t i m e an d p l a c e t h e r e i n s e t f o r t h , a t w h i c h
7 t i m e t h e w i t n e s s was d u l y sworn by me;
8 T h a t t h e t e s t i m o n y o f t h e w i t n e s s an d a l l
9 o b j e c t i o n s made a t t h e t ime o f t h e e x a m i n a t i o n were
10 r e c o r d e d s t e n o g r a p h i c a l l y by me an d were t h e r e a f t e r
11 t r a n s c r i b e d , s a i d t r a n s c r i p t b e i n g a t r u e c o p y o f my