Engineering the Future

ofCivil EngineeringRaising the Bar through Education

and Licensure

Putting 10 pounds of stuff in a 5-pound bag.

What's wrong with ASCE's new policy on engineering education,

what's right about it, and what might we do about it?

Today’s Schedule

1.Review ASCE Revised Policy 465

2.How it came about – what’s good about it

3.What’s wrong with it4.Perkins’ ideas

ASCE Policy 465

ADOPTED OCTOBER 2001

The American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) supports the concept of the Master’s degree or Equivalent as a prerequisite for licensure

and the practice of civil engineering at a professional

level.

ADOPTED OCTOBER 1998

The American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE)supports the concept of the Master’s degree as the First Professional Degree for the practice of civil engineering at a professional level.

Non-Terminal Graduate Degree

(for Holders of ABET-Accredited BSCE)

30 semester credits of acceptable graduate level course work beyond that required for the baccalaureate degree

HistoryIs This a New Issue?

“Is it not time we should agree that a professional man [woman] cannot be produced in four years, but that an accredited civil engineering training must be definitely post graduate, with a broad undergraduate training as a pre-requisite?”

Carlton S. Proctor, 1932

(ASCE President 1952)

Discussion of formaleducation beyond

baccalaureatedegree

1960

19901985197919741995

Member Comments

Image

Compensation

Public Health, Public Health, Safety, & WelfareSafety, & Welfare

“Slippage”

Reduction in CreditsCompensation

Professional Skills Development

Broader Formal Education

LeadershipPreparation

Appeal To Youth Management

by Non-Engineers

Changing Systems

2. Motivations for Change

“Slippage”

1800 1900

CE is a Learned Art

CE is a Profession with a 4-Year

Degree

1816-25 Erie Canal is “First Engineering School”

Once a Leader . . .

Law 1- 3 years

Medicine 1-4 years

A Leader No Longer

Medicine

Law

PharmacyArchitectureAccounting

Occupational Therapy

Civil Engineering

9

8

7

6

5

4

3

2

1

0

Yea

rs o

f F

orm

al E

duca

tion

1900 1920 1950 1980 2000 2010

Civil Engineering

Reduction in Credit

Hours

Trend in Reduced Total Credit-Hours

120

130

140

150

1925 1950 1975 2000

Year

Cre

dit

s

Compensation

0

2

4

6

8

10

12St

artin

g G

ener

al S

ched

ule

Gra

de

Doc

tor

Phar

mac

ist

Occ

upat

iona

l

The

rapi

stA

ccou

ntan

tA

rchi

tect

Civ

il E

ngin

eer

Den

tist

Law

yer

Opt

omet

rist

Perceived Value:Starting GS

Grades

Med

ian

Gen

eral

Sch

edul

e G

rade

15

14

13

12

11

10

9

8

1967 1997

Lawyer

Pharmacy

Optometrist

Accountant

O. T.*

Civil Engr

Dentist

Nurse

* Occupational Therapist

Medicine

Civil Engr

15

14

13

12

11

10

Median GS Grades:1967 & 1997

Average Yearly Starting Salaries

1990-2000 (NACE*)Curriculum 1990 2000

Change

Change in $

% Increase

Civil Engineering

28,136 37,932 9,796 35

Accounting 26,391 36,710 10,319 39

Occupational Therapy

25,644 43,500 17,856 70

Pharmacy 36,728 64,717 27,989 76

*National Association of Colleges & Employers

Leadership Leadership PreparationPreparation

Managementby Non-Engineers

Management byNon-Engineers

State Secretaries of Departments of Transportation

Degree Type (1)

Bachelors (2)

Graduate (3)

Liberal Arts 20 8 Civil Engineering 17 5 Business/Management 10 7 No Degrees Held 3 24 Public Administration 1 4 Other Engineering 1 2 Law Degree -- 7 Unknown (Connecticut) -- --

Multiple Bachelor’s Degrees 2 -- Multiple Advanced Degrees -- 5

Broader Formal Education

From Mann, 1918a. But that, "engineering education needed

curricular integration and a health dose of managerial and "'humanistic' courses" because "ultimately the engineer is " the creator of machines and the interpreter of their human significance."

b. He thought it was great that some universities could put "administrative" (management) courses in their curriculum.

1. 1944, ASCE and predecessor of ASEE found

2. "Civil engineering graduates of the previous decade were deficient in their ability to communicate orally and in writing and had little interest in public affairs?

Appeal to Youth

Declining Appeal to Youth

 

 

Professions(1)

High OpinionCareers “worth the extra

effort”

High school(2)

College(3)

High School(4)

College(5)

Doctors 78% 85% 90% 92%

Lawyers 45% 38% 71% 77%

Teachers 66% 83% 70% 81%

Engineers 58% 72% 68% 35%

Accountants/CPA 30% 36% 40% 47%

2000 Sample size: 1000 high school students, 1174 college students

ChangingSystems

ProfessionalSkills

Development

“Slippage”

Reduction in CreditsCompensation

Professional Skills Development

Broader Formal Education

LeadershipPreparation

Appeal To Youth Management

by Non-Engineers

Changing Systems

SUMMARY:Motivations for

Change

ASCE Policy 465(Adopted by the BOD on October 9, 2001)

The American Society of Civil Engineers The American Society of Civil Engineers

supports the concept of the Master’s supports the concept of the Master’s

degree degree or Equivalent as a prerequisite or Equivalent as a prerequisite

for licensure andfor licensure and the practice of civil the practice of civil

engineering at a professional level.engineering at a professional level.

Masters or Equivalent(MOE)

• PURPOSE: Increase breadth &depth of formal education

• FLEXIBILITY: Choice of focus Choice of timing Choice of access

• QUALITY: Maintain rigor

Engineering MOE’s(for Holders of ABET-Accredited BSCE)

1. MEngr or MS in CIVIL ENGINEERING

2. MEngr or MS in OTHER ENGINEERING

3. PhD in CIVIL ENGINEERING

4. PhD in OTHER ENGINEERING

1. MS in SCIENCE2. MS in ARCHITECTURE3. MS in CITY & URBAN PLANNING4. MASTER of BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION

MASTER OF PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION5. PhD in SCIENCE

PossibleNon-Engineering

MOE’s(for Holders of ABET-Accredited

BSCE)

The Board has established the -- Task Committee

on the Academic

Prerequisites for Professional

Practice (TCAP3)

4. Implementation

4. Implementation

- Jeff Russell (Chair)- Stu Walesh (Vice-

Chair)- Rich Anderson- Norm Buehring- Angela Duncan- John Durrant

- Jon Esslinger- Gerry

Galloway- Brook Maples- Brian Parsons- Bobby Price- Tom Lenox

TCAP3 Committee(practitioners, academics, younger members)

When?

•Will not happen overnight.•Will require cooperative effort.

•(Accountants have 20 year plan for 150 credits for CPA)

Summary• HISTORY

— we have been here before.• MOTIVATIONS FOR CHANGE

— we need to move ahead.• ASCE POLICY 465

— we have more specificity.• IMPLEMENTATION

— we, including a broad set of stakeholders, have a lot of important work ahead of us.

End of ASCE Slides• They made a good case.• What’s wrong with it• Perkins ideas

Non-Terminal Graduate Degree

(for Holders of ABET-Accredited BSCE)

30 semester credits of acceptable graduate level course work beyond that required for the baccalaureate degree

Right• 120 credits is inadequate for the

professional practice of CE.

• Policy adds 30 credits to the 140 credit degree as well.

• Does not define what credits need be added.

Wrong

Let’s look at those additional credits

• Practical matter of implementation

Avoid Controversy

Directions

From UAF CEE Advisory Board

What the Board said:

Needed Education

But• Even 138 credit BS• Lacks sufficient technical courses • For professional practice

CE Sub-disciplines

•Structures•Geotech•Water

•Environmental

•Transportation

•Construction

Extra Courses Required

Extra Courses Required - Environmental

1. Environmental 1&2 (already)2. Chemical, biological, and physical process (6-9) 3. Water chemistry and treatment (3)4. Solid waste (3),5. Pollution control (3) and 6. Laws (3) • Total 15 – 21 more

Extra Courses Required - Construction

1. Cost estimating (3), 2. CE constructions (3), 3. Project management (3), 4. Contract law (3), 5. Human Resources, Labor Law (3) plus 6. Geotech or structures (3-6).• Total 15-18 more credits

So we have

Not 10 pounds of stuff in a 5 pound bag

How about 15 pounds of stuff in a 10 pound bag?

Why change is hard?

• Always is.• Need motivation for any change to

happen.• Let’s look at motivation of

interested parties.

Motivation of Students

• Can get good job with current degree

• Full-time two-year MS does not pay

• Economics deceptive• Based on 1999 NSPE salary survey

Salary vs. Experience

35000

40000

45000

50000

55000

60000

65000

70000

75000

0 5 10 15

Years

Sa

lary

BS only

MS

Linear (MS)

Linear (BSonly)

Full-time MS• Two year MS paid $20K/year for

two years, then starts at $43.7K, their third year post BS.

• BS for same times is paid, 38k, 41k, then 43.4k for their third year.

• Over 15 years post BS, the MS is about 8% worse off, NPV at i = 8%

Part-time MS• Get MS at night• Economics depends completely on

valuation of free time.• At $20/hr, their rate of pay, it is not

economical• At $13/hr, it is same as BS.• Must value your free time at less than

$13/hr for MS at night to “pay.”

Motivation of Employers

• Contrast with dentists– Each new dentist is a direct economic threat

to practicing dentists– Pays to increase qualifications, raise the bar

• Most engineers are employees of other engineers– Why create labor shortage– If we train on the job, they are “ours”

Motivation of University

• University does not recognize engineering as a learned profession

• Does not consider engineering college or school to be a professional school different than Anthropology Department.

Motivation of Engineering Faculty

• Most have never had significant engineering employment outside of academia

• No rewards for teaching or professional service by faculty– Some by administration, not faculty

• Faculty rewards are for research and publication

• Professional employment, i.e., summers or consulting, is held in contempt

Motivation of Engineering Faculty, cont.

• No desire to expand enrollments beyond minimum

• Generally lack resources to teach what is required now

• Increasing offering frequency would require more resources.

Motivation of Administrators

• Would like to see enrollments increase• But,• First to increase requirements will

loose students to departments/colleges/states that have lower requirements.

• CPA’s proved this.

Motivation of Professional Societies

• Would like to see prestige of profession increased

• But are convinced that their education was adequate

• “When I was an new engineer…”• Firms will consider competitive

position

AELS Board• Can get PE with no engineering degree

now.– ABET accredited B.S. degree in engineering

technology – Non-ABET accredited B.S. degree in engineering – Course work in ABET accredited engineering

degree curriculum - no degree (course work must include a minimum of three years of credit hours in an engineering curriculum (Huh?)

And more• ABET

– Stopped separate accreditation of five-year degrees long ago

– ABET 2000 is moving in different direction

• NCEES– Will sell as many exams either way.

Lack of Motivation• Students• Employers• Universities• License Boards• Societies

Nobody said this would be easy, or non-controversial

For new degree requirements to ever happen:

• Must define what we want , and • What the public health and safety

require.• Must have system so that students get

higher starting salaries• Students must be worth more to

employers• Profession must demand

Here’s something that might work

Higher Math• CE at UAF currently requires 135 credits• Typical liberal arts graduate, 120 credits

in four years. 150 for master’s• So we are half way to a master’s

already.• Add the 5 to 7 more courses and we are

over 150 credits. • 5 courses is one semester.

So, both• Requirements for discipline-

specific courses, and• University credits for MS can be

met in one extra semester.

Add value• Add 2 summer internship

“courses”– list of topics– discussion and – industry advisor

See NCARB IDP• National Council of Architectural

Registration Boards• Intern Development Program

Category A: Design & Construction Documents

Minimum Training Units Required

1. Programming 10

2. Site and Environmental Analysis

10

3. Schematic Design 15

4. Engineering Systems Coordination

15

5. Building Cost Analysis 10

6. Code Research 15

7. Design Development 40

8. Construction Documents 135

9. Specifications & Materials Research

15

10. Documents Checking & Coordination

10

Total Training Units Required  350*

For 3-credits• Meet in fall• present data• interact with other student• fill in gaps.

Make all design courses into 600-

level graduate courses

• Stack all 400-level “design” courses,– CE 425/625

• Add “professional content”• Stacked course would add material on

communications, human element, public reaction, etc.

• May not directly relate to course content– 5 to 10 hours, max.

Professional• Require they pass the Civil EIT and• Take the PE

– must pass for “professional degree”

• Several state permit taking the PE immediately after graduation from a four-year degree– (Note, this is very different than getting the

license, for which you still need the 3 or 4 years of experience.)

Academic Deal• Leave current “four-year” degree on

books, just as it is.• Add a 120-credit non-ABET degree,

perhaps, “BS in engineering science.”– Student opting for the MS will get the 120-

credit degree in passing.– That starts the clock on the MS, admission to

“graduate standing.”– The counting of the 30 post-BS credits.

• Probably want 36 credits, post-BS– for 156 total.

Increased Value• Student get “masters” in 5 months, so

economics changes, – with only MS differential– probably favorable

• With summer jobs, increase starting salaries 5% or more

• Likewise having passed the PE exam• Current 4 year students take 4.5 years• Typical 4.5 years will take 5

What’s in the future?