EMS RULES TASK FORCE MEETING August 26, 2015 ...site.utah.gov/bemsp/wp-content/uploads/sites/34/2016/11/...EMS RULES TASK FORCE MEETING August 26, 2015 MEETING 801.538.2333 Garcia

EMS RULES TASK FORCE MEETINGAugust 26, 2015 MEETING

801.538.2333Garcia & Love

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EMS Rules Task Force Meeting

August 26, 2015

1:04 p.m.

Location: Bureau of EMS and Preparedness

Room 425 - Highland Building

3760 South Highland Drive

Salt Lake City, Utah

Reporter: Susan S. Sprouse

Garcia & Love Court Reporting and Videography

Susan S. Sprouse, CSR/RPR

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A P P E A R A N C E S

Guy Dansie

Suzanne Barton

Jess Campbell

Jean Lundquist

Shari Hunsaker

Jay Dee Downs

Jim Guynn

Dean York

Tami Goodin

Jolene Whitney

Jeffry Grunow

Lauara Snyder (telephonically)

Teresa Brunt (telephonically)

Regina Nelson (telephonically)

Randy Wilden (telephonically)

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1 August 26, 2015 1:04 p.m.

2 * * *

3 GUY DANSIE: We can go ahead and start. I feel

4 bad there's not more task force people here. Maybe they

5 are having -- we'll go around the table really quick.

6 I'm Guy. You know, I think -- I don't know if

7 we need to do introductions. I'm here. We've got

8 Suzanne, Jess, Dean York. Jolene Whitney is here with the

9 Bureau. Shari Hunsaker is here. She's on our agenda to

10 present on 426-7 and Susan is here for our court recorder.

11 Jay Downs is on his way. We have -- who do we have on the

12 phone? We have Lauara --

13 SUZANNE BARTON: Lauara and Teresa.

14 RANDY WILDEN: Randy Wilden.

15 GUY DANSIE: Randy Wilden. Good. Is there

16 anyone else on the phone that we missed? Okay. Let's go

17 ahead and we'll get started.

18 I think -- I'm just looking at the agenda. We

19 had -- since we all know each other, I don't feel we need

20 to do introductions or anything. I did want to introduce

21 Shari. She's probably an unfamiliar face to Jess and Dean

22 and some of the folks on the phone.

23 Shari is over our data compliance program -- or

24 your official title -- I'll let you speak to yourself.

25 She's usually not at a loss for words. So she'll explain

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1 who she is and then the purpose and some of the changes in

2 this rule and then we'll look at those.

3 SHARI HUNSAKER: For the recorder, I'm going to

4 spell my name. It's S-H-A-R-I H-U-N-S-A-K-E-R. I am the

5 data manager for the Bureau. And in that role I am

6 responsible for ensuring data compliance and administering

7 the EMS data systems, including pre-hospital and trauma

8 registry along with licensure and certification.

9 I asked to be included in the agenda today to

10 speak to you about a proposed change to Rule 426-007. And

11 the change, the proposed changes start in Section 2 under

12 pre-hospital dataset No. 2.

13 It has come to the Bureau's attention that

14 agencies are not consistently reporting a patient or

15 turning in a patient care report every time they are

16 dispatched. If the call gets canceled en route or no

17 patient is found, some agencies are choosing not to submit

18 a patient care report. That leaves us with an incomplete

19 dataset, as does the next issue that I was going to

20 address in this section. With mass casualties what we

21 have found is if an agency responds to, for example, a bus

22 accident, they may pull all of the passengers on the

23 bus -- yeah, don't worry. He didn't throw that at me.

24 GUY DANSIE: Just for those on the phone, Jim

25 Guynn has just walked in and dropped his name on all of



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1 us.

2 SHARI HUNSAKER: Name dropper.

3 In the case of a mass casualty, if there's a bus

4 accident, the EMS agency staff will go on to the bus and

5 will poll everybody on the bus to see whether or not

6 anybody is hurt and may have them sign a roster of some

7 sort indicating that they don't need medical care, but

8 they never prepare a patient care report documenting their

9 interaction with that individual with the patient

10 disposition if the patient refused care. Again, that

11 leads us -- leaves us with an incomplete dataset and it's

12 impact, I think, can be appreciated if you think about the

13 fact that we are underreporting the use of our EMS

14 resources if they are not reporting that they were

15 dispatched -- because once they are dispatched and on

16 their way to a call, even if it gets canceled en route,

17 especially in our rural agencies, they've been on the go

18 for so long, that's a lost resource, where they could have

19 been going to another call if -- and I think it's

20 important for us to be able to measure that.

21 I also think that it's important for us to be

22 able to document the number of times that EMS responds in

23 a mass casualty case and they document all of the people

24 on the scene and we have a formal record that these three

25 or four people may have been transported and these 20

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1 people refuse care. Rather than a roster that floats

2 around in the agency and that data never gets into the

3 State.

4 And so my proposed verbiage change for 426-7-2,

5 No. 2, is emergency medical services providers shall

6 submit the data to the department electronically in the

7 National Emergency Medical Services Information System,

8 parenthetically NEMSIS format for every dispatch instance

9 regardless of patient disposition. In cases of mass

10 casualty, data is required for every victim on scene

11 whether care was given or refused.

12 GUY DANSIE: Okay.

13 SHARI HUNSAKER: I struck the rest of that and

14 have moved it down into No. 5. Do you want me just to

15 continue with the changes --

16 GUY DANSIE: That's fine.

17 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- in the section, or do we

18 need to talk about these changes as we talk about them?

19 GUY DANSIE: Any discussion? Everybody okay

20 with that?

21 RANDY WILDEN: This is Wilden.

22 GUY DANSIE: Go ahead Randy.

23 RANDY WILDEN: If we need to talk real world for

24 a second, we've had enough MCI's that we're familiar

25 enough with them. We will have patients picked up by who

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1 knows who, bystander on the side of the road and pack them

2 off to a hospital. We will have the ambulance pick up a

3 couple of patients and drive away from the scene before

4 we've ever had any opportunity to even see that patient.

5 We will have patients who are -- will get up and family

6 members will arrive and take them off. I don't -- I -- we

7 will have a very hard time trying to get compliance with

8 that for MCI. I just don't see that happening.

9 SHARI HUNSAKER: I think that we could certainly

10 work with the verbiage. I don't expect you to turn in

11 reports for individuals that you never interacted with.

12 I'm just talking --

13 RANDY WILDEN: Okay. I'm saying --

14 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- about the people you

15 interact with.

16 RANDY WILDEN: I'm just saying for every victim

17 on scene, we don't have lots of victims, we'll never ever

18 have an opportunity so something needs to go in there for

19 patients that we physically do an assessment or something

20 to be able to provide that data.

21 SHARI HUNSAKER: How about -- Randy, how about

22 if I strike "on scene" and change the word to "assessed"?

23 RANDY WILDEN: Something like that makes it

24 something more -- we're more able to try to meet that

25 standard. "On scene" is just not workable for us.

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1 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay. Thank you for that

2 feedback.

3 JIM GUYNN: I think I agree strongly with Chief

4 Wilden. There are many times that you may or may not make

5 contact with somebody involved if law enforcement is

6 already there. And they say there's nobody hurt in this

7 car, you know, we may not necessarily even make contact if

8 we have other patients that are requiring immediate care.

9 So maybe rather than assess some sort of verbiage that if

10 you establish a professional contact with them, and I

11 don't know -- I don't know what the correct word is. If

12 you -- if you make contact with somebody and you are

13 actually going to obtain a release, a release at the

14 scene --

15 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right. That's what I'm --

16 that's what I'm trying to get to --

17 JIM GUYNN: Right.

18 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- is instead of filling out a

19 roster and not completing a patient care report, if the

20 agency personnel went to the time and trouble of getting

21 somebody's signature on the statement of release, whether

22 it was a blanket roster or an individual release, that

23 needs to be reported to the State.

24 JIM GUYNN: Correct.

25 SHARI HUNSAKER: That's the heart and sole of



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1 the intent here.

2 RANDY WILDEN: We're okay with reporting that if

3 we actually have patient contact. So whatever verbiage it

4 takes that we have patient contact and, you know, like

5 create a professional contact or whatever verbiage works

6 for everybody, we can -- we can buy into that one too.

7 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay. So data is required for

8 every victim with whom EMS had contact? Because I know

9 assessments are something completely different in the

10 NEMSIS world.

11 RANDY WILDEN: The problem is they really are

12 not a patient. They may not be a patient. They may

13 refuse whatever. So regardless, patient may not be the

14 right term to use.

15 SHARI HUNSAKER: What about individual?

16 RANDY WILDEN: Okay. That is probably better.

17 How about the rest of them? How do you feel about the

18 verbiage?

19 LAUARA SNYDER: This is Laura. My only sense

20 is -- other than a few patients, this is when we had 40

21 patients on a bus, but there are a lot of patients who

22 don't want to sign anything and refuse services. So I'm

23 concerned when we go to fill out the NEMSIS Polaris report

24 all we may have is a name, period. And, you know, then

25 we'll write in, of course, the scene of the accident, that

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1 sort of thing, but sometimes all we can get is something

2 to sign, like you said, a refusal of services totally.

3 But I think what this state may be getting at is

4 they want to document in some way how many people are in

5 that accident still at the scene when the EMS arrives.

6 SHARI HUNSAKER: For legal purposes --

7 LAUARA SNYDER: Is that correct?

8 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right. And for us to have a

9 complete dataset to be able to report accurate data, I

10 need to be able to collect accurate data.

11 Now one thing that -- above and beyond this rule

12 change, as we progress in our purchase of a new

13 pre-hospital data system, I am developing a short form,

14 for lack of a better term, for mass casualty instances

15 only where you'd be able to just list the name of all of

16 the patients who had refused care at that scene.

17 Now, however your own -- if you are not using

18 the State's data system for reporting, that will be of

19 limited use to you, but your vendors may be able to work

20 with you in creating something like that. So if you

21 indicate it is a mass casualty incident, they'd give you

22 some way of capturing the names of everybody so that it

23 can be submitted in a NEMSIS XML file to the State.

24 JIM GUYNN: If somebody refuses to give you

25 their information, as Lauara may suggest that they don't

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1 want to sign it, if that's just articulated in the

2 narrative, I mean, you can only report what you have.

3 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right. But there is a

4 pertinent negative for patient name called "not

5 available".

6 JIM GUYNN: Sure. And that's what I am saying.

7 You know, if you don't have it --

8 SHARI HUNSAKER: You don't have it.

9 JIM GUYNN: -- you just articulate that on the

10 form.

11 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- you still have to -- but if

12 you just put it in the narrative of another patient, that

13 doesn't help me. So you are saying that you'd have to

14 create a whole narrative, and I'm saying that in the short

15 form we could come up with something that would be

16 acceptable. If patient refused care, there is no

17 narrative and it's not going to fail XML validation if you

18 provide me --

19 DEAN YORK: And use signature?

20 SHARI HUNSAKER: Uh-huh. If it's a NEMSIS

21 value.

22 JIM GUYNN: We still want to make sure to

23 articulate that on the narrative just to protect the

24 agency.

25 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right.

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1 JIM GUYNN: I mean, we -- I think it's probably

2 maybe a foregone conclusion that in the EMS field we write

3 paper on every person we contact, whether they give us

4 their information or not, I think that's probably --

5 SHARI HUNSAKER: And the only question is

6 whether or not that paper is getting -- has a way of

7 getting to the State. And with one of our large urban

8 agencies they are just completing a roster. And that's

9 not getting to the State. And I have no way of enforcing

10 them without administrative rule behind me.

11 JIM GUYNN: I don't see it --

12 SHARI HUNSAKER: So while most agencies may be

13 doing it just fine --

14 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Isn't that an educational

15 issue? Yeah. Isn't that an education issue as well as a

16 legal? I mean if you -- especially a disaster -- the

17 rules are different -- but if you go to the scene and you

18 have somebody that you talk to and do something about and

19 you don't document that, you leave yourself wide open.

20 JIM GUYNN: Uh-huh.

21 SHARI HUNSAKER: Well, this agency is protecting

22 themselves legally by having the patient's sign off on a

23 roster that they refused care, but then they are never

24 translating that roster into patient care reports that get

25 sent into Polaris.



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1 GUY DANSIE: One thing -- just reading this too,

2 in my mind, do we need to define what a patient is or a

3 victim? We got this different phrase in there.

4 SHARI HUNSAKER: Well, the last iteration was

5 individual.

6 GUY DANSIE: Okay.

7 SHARI HUNSAKER: So we changed it from victim.

8 We thought about patient.

9 GUY DANSIE: Because there could be, like, an

10 argument if they really are a victim, or if they really

11 are a patient.

12 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right. So now it's individual.

13 GUY DANSIE: Okay. So I'm going to change that

14 in the text?

15 SHARI HUNSAKER: Uh-huh.

16 JIM GUYNN: Well, you're not going to be able to

17 say for every individual on scene. I mean, that's going

18 to include witnesses, bystanders --

19 SHARI HUNSAKER: Individuals --

20 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So it's going to include who

21 EMS had contact with.

22 JIM GUYNN: Right.

23 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right. I like that. For every

24 individual with whom EMS had contact, whether care was

25 given or refused.

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1 JEAN LUNDQUIST: What?

2 DEAN YORK: I just think of a call in Orem where

3 a couple's motorcycle is parked in a parking lot. They

4 are not near it. It tips over. Go back to their

5 motorcycle. Someone thinks it's an accident. They call

6 911. EMS shows up. So now is that a call? Should they

7 have information on those people, even though --

8 SHARI HUNSAKER: It is a call. You were

9 dispatched. EMS was sent. And then the patient

10 disposition would be "no patient found".

11 DEAN YORK: Okay.

12 SHARI HUNSAKER: Because sometimes you get

13 dispatched, and it might be a homeless person and they've

14 left the scene before you arrive. Same scenario.

15 DEAN YORK: Okay.

16 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So that's the short form you

17 are trying to come up with?

18 SHARI HUNSAKER: The short form I'm coming up

19 with would be for mass casualties.

20 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Oh.

21 DEAN YORK: But you might not have the time to

22 be more in depth, is that correct?

23 SHARI HUNSAKER: I don't want somebody to have

24 to sit down and do 55 patient care reports and mark all of

25 the assessments normal and all of the exams normal.

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1 That's what I'm trying to come up with is a way of -- by

2 default, if it's a mass casualty and they refuse care, we

3 would default these values in for you.

4 Should -- are we okay with No. 2, then?

5 GUY DANSIE: I think so. Anybody have any --

6 I'd say good rule.

7 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay. The crux of the change

8 that I want to make in No. 3 is this. Historically we

9 have listed all of the data elements individually within

10 the administrative rule that we are requiring to be

11 submitted. They are all NEMSIS defined elements. But

12 within the NEMSIS data dictionary, some elements are

13 national, meaning that they are sent over to the NEMSIS

14 tack up at the U. Others are listed as optional or

15 suggested.

16 The State has adopted a handful of those

17 optional data elements that we want to have submitted to

18 us. I'd like to ask this group for your feedback on how

19 you would feel if we referenced the NEMSIS data

20 dictionary? Right now we're still using version 2.2. And

21 then stated that in addition to all national elements in

22 that data dictionary, that we require submission of the

23 following additional data elements. It would shorten up

24 the list and would be easier to maintain.

25 The -- I'm going to be back here in a little

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1 while -- in a couple of sessions to talk to you about the

2 trauma data rule, but -- and we're moving towards the same

3 thing.

4 The NEMSIS data dictionary is rather static. It

5 doesn't change very often. As you can see, the version

6 that we're currently using was published 10 years ago.

7 As we work on the transition to NEMSIS version

8 3.3 and version 3.4, it's become a little bit more

9 dynamic. But the NEMSIS tech has agreed that they will

10 not be doing major releases which require changes to the

11 data dictionary anymore often than every four years. So I

12 don't anticipate having to come in every year and ask to

13 change --

14 GUY DANSIE: Major reference.

15 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- the reference to the data

16 dictionary.

17 I would prefer that so that we list the

18 additional elements instead of the complete dataset.

19 Researchers, the general public, everybody has access to

20 that NEMSIS data dictionary. And the State has no custom

21 elements that we have created.

22 Our official line is we adopt the NEMSIS data

23 dictionary with no exceptions. Other states create custom

24 elements, but Utah never has.

25 So my No. 3 is just the department adopts by



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1 reference the national highway traffic safety

2 administration NHTSA, Uniform Pre-hospital Emergency

3 Medical Services, EMS, the Dataset version 2.2 published

4 in 2005.

5 And then when we are ready to accept version 3

6 data, we would have to amend the rule to say -- and then

7 we could establish the timeline, how long are we going to

8 accept version 2 data and when are we going to cut that

9 off and only accept the version 3 data.

10 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Does it have to be that

11 specific or can you just say the current version of?

12 GUY DANSIE: Well, I know -- just to answer your

13 question, that's one thing I was going to point out, is it

14 actually does need to be specific.

15 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Okay.

16 GUY DANSIE: I know that the AG's office,

17 Brittany, and Lyle before that, says you have to be able

18 to have a specific version and date. And also it has to

19 be accessible for the constituents, meaning that we have

20 to have some way that they can obtain that information

21 easily so we can post a link on our website, something

22 like that that would help with that.

23 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So you said that you want to

24 have -- does this one in here have -- we're going to do --

25 so if you get a new version you'll say we'll accept 2.2

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1 until July 1st of blah, blah, and after that it will be --

2 SHARI HUNSAKER: Nationally --

3 JEAN LUNDQUIST: -- 3.0?

4 SHARI HUNSAKER: Nationally the NEMSIS tact is

5 going to accept version 2.2 formats until December 31st,

6 2016. At which point they will only accept version 3.3.4

7 or version 3.4. The State, at our discretion, can accept

8 version 2.2 data. We can cut off version 2.2 data earlier

9 than December 31st, 2016.

10 GUY DANSIE: Do we want to -- do you want to put

11 something in there about it?

12 SHARI HUNSAKER: I'm not ready to address that

13 until I have a new system to stand up.


15 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Sounds good to me.

16 SHARI HUNSAKER: Any feedback, then, on No. 3?

17 TERESA BRUNT: Hey, Guy, this is Teresa. Can I

18 just ask a general question? Is there anyone that truly

19 is accountable for gathering that data? Is each EMT or

20 paramedic required to do that, or is there -- in that mass

21 casualty setting, or do we all do it?

22 GUY DANSIE: It would fall in the licensed -- it

23 would be the licensed provider, the agency, that's

24 required to do that.

25 TERESA BRUNT: So all of them -- I mean, if you

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1 walked into a mass casualty and there are 11 victims, they

2 all gather that same information?

3 GUY DANSIE: They should.

4 TERESA BRUNT: Who's accountable for gathering

5 it?

6 JAY DEE DOWNS: The EMTs.

7 GUY DANSIE: Well, the EMTs on the scene, but

8 they represent the provider, the licensed provider.

9 SHARI HUNSAKER: And Lauara --

10 GUY DANSIE: That's the way we administer that.

11 SHARI HUNSAKER: Lauara, I don't have a problem

12 with the concept of the roster, but the data entry has to

13 be done. It can't just be limited to I have this roster

14 that the EMTs had everybody sign. If your EMTs came back

15 to your station with that roster and you had somebody else

16 create the PCR, that would be fine. But the --

17 LAUARA SNYDER: Well, in the real world, I think

18 that's going to be hard to get that information, but

19 that's just me.

20 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I think that's -- goes to the

21 point of you do whatever you can.

22 JAY DEE DOWNS: You do the best you can --

23 JEAN LUNDQUIST: You get whatever you can. You

24 gather whatever data you can from the people and that's

25 the best you can do, right?

Page 20

1 LAUARA SNYDER: This is Lauara, and I have a

2 question. So this mass casualty incident that we're

3 talking about, there's an area where you have first

4 responders, or in the area, first responders. Then you

5 have the ambulance EMS provider come. So essentially then

6 the first responder agency and also the ambulance service

7 agency will have -- should have the same number of people

8 reports for those people, right?

9 SHARI HUNSAKER: Unless first responders --

10 LAUARA SNYDER: Well, the declinations?

11 SHARI HUNSAKER: Unless the first responders got

12 the declination of treatment from other people on the

13 scene and they had already left before the ambulance

14 arrived.

15 LAUARA SNYDER: I'm just saying -- so, for

16 example, our bus rolled over in Wendover. We had 40

17 people. The first responders came -- this is hypothetical

18 if we had them -- the first responders came to help us and

19 the ambulance came, the first responders, their list would

20 mirror our list of people who refused.

21 SHARI HUNSAKER: Not necessarily.

22 LAUARA SNYDER: Is that correct?

23 SHARI HUNSAKER: Not necessarily. Let's say

24 that the first responders got there and some people had

25 already declined care to the first responders before your



Pages 21 to 24

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1 ambulance crew arrived.

2 LAUARA SNYDER: Right.

3 SHARI HUNSAKER: Then the ambulance crew never

4 interacts with that person, so you've got 40 people on

5 your first responder's list and only 38 on your ambulance

6 crew's list because two people left the scene after they

7 declined care from the first responders.

8 LAUARA SNYDER: Right. I understand for the

9 ones who left the scene, but the first deal people on

10 scene, I would imagine my EMTs are still going to go over,

11 talk to them, even though they may have signed a release

12 with the first responders because they are still hanging

13 around the scene and we don't know, maybe their condition

14 has gotten worse. I'm just saying --

15 SHARI HUNSAKER: If you interact --

16 LAUARA SNYDER: -- two times anyway.

17 SHARI HUNSAKER: There might be duplicate

18 entrees.

19 LAUARA SNYDER: Okay.

20 SHARI HUNSAKER: Just like there's an intercept

21 en route to the hospital. I have more than one EMS agency

22 plus the first responder agency reporting on that same

23 patient and that same incident.

24 LAUARA SNYDER: Okay. Thank you.

25 JIM GUYNN: So is Polaris capable of sorting

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1 that out? Here's the example. We're a QR agency. We

2 respond out. We create our patient report in Polaris and

3 submit that. And then our provider, our transportation

4 provider agency, either Gold Cross or Hurricane, whatever,

5 they also do another report.

6 SHARI HUNSAKER: That is correct.

7 JIM GUYNN: So it wouldn't duplicate the data

8 necessarily. Those two reports would tie back together?

9 Or how do we -- how do we make sure we're on --

10 SHARI HUNSAKER: On the QR -- on the QR patient

11 care report, your patient disposition would be treated,

12 transfer care, because you transferred care to the

13 ambulance.

14 JIM GUYNN: Correct. Okay.

15 SHARI HUNSAKER: Then if the ambulance

16 transported them, it would either -- it would be treated

17 and transported by EMS or they might pick up treatment and

18 then release the patient.

19 JIM GUYNN: So we don't need to coordinate their

20 agency case number with our agency case number?

21 SHARI HUNSAKER: No.

22 JIM GUYNN: Okay.

23 SHARI HUNSAKER: But in most current systems if

24 you put in an incident date and a patient's name and birth

25 date, it will give you the option of copying the

Page 23

1 demographic information from one PCR over to another

2 because they are the same incident. But each agency

3 follows their own incident number nomenclature. And they

4 would be separate patient care reports.

5 GUY DANSIE: Makes sense.

6 SHARI HUNSAKER: Any other questions before we

7 move onto No. 4?

8 All -- the only change in No. 4 is that the last

9 sentence of Section 2 that I struck has been moved down to

10 the bottom of Section 4.

11 GUY DANSIE: Cut and paste.

12 SHARI HUNSAKER: Cut and paste. And then we've

13 got renumbering through the rest of the document. I --

14 and this is one that will probably stimulate quite a bit

15 of conversation.

16 In our current world, EMS agencies are required

17 to submit their data to the State within 30 days of the

18 end of the month in which the incident occurred. In

19 reality, that gives an EMS agency up to two months to

20 submit a patient care report. And while the EMS agency

21 leaves a paper copy of their report in the ER when they

22 transport a patient --

23 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Not anymore, right?

24 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- there are other users within

25 the hospital system that need access to that data in a

Page 24

1 more timely fashion, namely the trauma registrars.

2 There has been a recommendation made by the

3 trauma user group that we bring to this group the

4 proposition that we shorten the timeframe for data

5 submission. So that what I've written down here is that

6 patient care reports would be supported with -- reported

7 within 14 days of the incident date.

8 I realize that that is going to be -- it may be

9 a problem for smaller volunteer based agencies, but I've

10 also heard from agencies that would be defined exactly

11 that way, that their standard operating procedure is that

12 if you go on a call, you do not leave the shop until that

13 report has been input.

14 It would certainly make my job as data

15 compliance supervisor, or manager, or witch, whichever

16 term you care to use, a lot easier. Because right now

17 I'm -- I can't go after an agency for noncompliance for

18 two full months. And it makes it difficult. Because

19 right now I'm working with agencies to catch up six months

20 worth of data. It would be a lot easier for me to measure

21 and assess compliance if those patient care reports were

22 being reported within 14 days of the incident.

23 For those agencies using a third-party vendor

24 that does not automatically upload their data for them,

25 like Zoll does not, it's still -- instead of doing it once



Pages 25 to 28

Page 25

1 a month you'd just be doing it twice a month. With the

2 benefit of if the person that does that for the agency

3 happens to be out on the first of the month and forgets

4 about it and it gets behind, now I'm only two weeks behind

5 instead of a full month behind in my data collection.

6 JEAN LUNDQUIST: What are your agency's

7 protocols or policies for completing ECR? Do you have --

8 like it has to be done --

9 DEAN YORK: Ours is just that. It's -- you

10 don't leave until it's done. So --

11 JAY DEE DOWNS: You don't go off shift first

12 time --

13 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Oh, okay. It's in the

14 computer?

15 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah. That goes in -- ours goes

16 into Image Trend, Image Trend transfers it over to

17 Polaris.

18 RANDY WILDEN: Randy Wilden here. Somebody can

19 help me if I'm missing the point here.

20 I have an accident on January 1st and I have

21 till the 14th of January to submit that PCR, right?

22 SHARI HUNSAKER: The 15th, yes.

23 RANDY WILDEN: I have a car accident on the

24 2nd of January. I now have until the 15th to submit that

25 PCR.

Page 26

1 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yes.

2 RANDY WILDEN: That means I'm going to be

3 submitting every -- essentially every day, if I have 14

4 days from the date of the incident rather than a 15-day

5 window, if I have to do it within 14 days of the incident,

6 that means every day I'm going to be submitting, unless

7 I'm missing that terminology.

8 JEAN LUNDQUIST: That's true.

9 SHARI HUNSAKER: I would say that on January

10 the 15th you would upload your data for everything between

11 January 1st and the 14th. And then on January 31st, you

12 would upload your data for the remainder of the month and

13 you would be in compliance. So however we need to reword

14 this --

15 RANDY WILDEN: Part of the problem for us is

16 getting the information out of dispatch. We -- we are

17 getting that information about every two weeks from

18 dispatch so that we can go into the PCR and confirm all of

19 the information that we receive from our firefighter EMT

20 on scene and fill in any of the holes that they haven't

21 provided that dispatch has. And right now we're not going

22 to get that information any sooner.

23 It -- it -- you know, if we are saying submit it

24 every 14 days in a block, fine, but there's not going to

25 be any way we can be compliant in that in the environment

Page 27

1 we're in right now.

2 SHARI HUNSAKER: Randy, do you agree that you

3 could submit it more frequently than 60 days after the

4 accident or after the incident?

5 RANDY WILDEN: We're trying to submit 30 to 35

6 days. It takes us a couple of days at the end of 30 days

7 to get all that information, again from dispatch. Yeah, I

8 mean we could submit smaller blocks. That's not what that

9 rule rewrite is saying. It's saying -- you know, that --

10 the way it's written, it says every day I have to be --

11 within 14 days I have to submit, which means every single

12 day I have an event, 14 days later I'm going to have to

13 submit a block of data.

14 SHARI HUNSAKER: And that was not --

15 RANDY WILDEN: That's the way it's written.

16 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right, but that is not -- that

17 is not my intent. So I am open for rewriting it.

18 JEAN LUNDQUIST: You could put "must submit

19 bimonthly" or something. You know must be --

20 RANDY WILDEN: Yeah, there's got to be a better

21 way. But there's also got to be a little leeway.

22 The problem is, if it's under my control, we

23 would certainly do it more often. But it's not. I have

24 someone else that I have to depend on for that

25 information.

Page 28

1 LAUARA SNYDER: This is Lauara. I have a

2 question. When we have our EMS report, well, I guess it's

3 not a question, it's more a statement. When we do our EMS

4 reports, we do them at the end of our calls. When we're

5 dispatched, we are given a timeout time from dispatch.

6 So -- and maybe I'm doing it wrong, and everyone else is

7 verifying if the call was with their EMS center, but we

8 don't. And I can see where if Randy is saying that, you

9 know, he has to get those reports from dispatch before he

10 can complete a EMS report, that's a problem, but I've

11 never done that.

12 We complete our EMS reports at the end of the

13 call. If we need some information that maybe we didn't

14 hear when dispatch sent us out saying, you know, you are

15 dispatched, this is the time, okay you are back in

16 service, this is the time, the dispatch gives us that.

17 And so -- am I missing something?

18 RANDY WILDEN: We're -- we've been instructed

19 not to call the dispatchers or dispatch, to wait for the

20 printed, the emailed version of those reports. We're

21 trying to submit through our system 100 percent accurate

22 so that we don't get any reject. If Shari is okay if we

23 submit the PCRs incomplete, we'll do that. And then we

24 can submit again when we get the rest of that data from

25 dispatch, but I can promise you, we're not going to be



Pages 29 to 32

Page 29

1 current every 14 days getting that information that we

2 need.

3 SHARI HUNSAKER: You can always --

4 LAUARA SNYDER: I did. I --

5 SHARI HUNSAKER: I'm sorry.

6 LAUARA SNYDER: No, keep -- I'm not seeing some

7 of the other people that are -- are there other agencies

8 that don't receive their dispatch times when they are

9 called out so that they can do their PCR reports.

10 JAY DEE DOWNS: Ours are live. Ours are

11 almost -- you come back and you have all the times right

12 then and there. We also have the program voice loggers so

13 we can pull our own times off there as well.

14 DEAN YORK: Would the change get Randy

15 ammunition now to go back, though, and say we have to have

16 this information back faster by statute?

17 MS. NELSON: This is Regina. I'm here. I just

18 was joining the conversation late. Sorry. Randy, I'm

19 here if you need to talk about getting something faster.

20 You have mobile access, and head track stuff and radio log

21 access and you guys have firehouse. If I need to do

22 something more, let me know.

23 CASSANDRA: Regina, this is Cassandra. We don't

24 have access to be able to go in and look at our reports

25 and access. All we've looked at is line data.

Page 30

1 MS. NELSON: Are the radio logs mobile?

2 CASSANDRA: Oh, we can't look them up in the

3 tab.

4 MS. NELSON: I set everybody up for mobile. You

5 guys should have access to your radio log and mobile. Tom

6 Wilson has it. And I set it up for qualified users.

7 RANDY WILDEN: Tom has told us several times he

8 has that access and we have not had that, the setup.

9 MS. NELSON: It's a universal. Everybody's fire

10 access has access to radio log. It's universal.

11 GUY DANSIE: Is this a Tooele problem?

12 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah.

13 RANDY WILDEN: We'll go back and look at it.

14 MS. NELSON: Let me know if there's anything

15 else you guys need.

16 CASSANDRA: We're getting them about every two

17 weeks definitely right now. So if we could get them maybe

18 every week instead that would help too.

19 MS. NELSON: That should work, two on, off two,

20 on two, so -- and she's on today. I could ask her to send

21 them more frequently.

22 GUY DANSIE: Thanks Tooele County. Maybe -- I

23 don't know how widespread this problem is. I do meet with

24 the 911 Committee on the 15th, I believe, of September.

25 It's the 15, 16th, something like that. It's a Tuesday.

Page 31

1 I could discuss it with that group if there's an issue

2 widespread with dispatch. I don't know Regina would

3 probably know that.

4 JAY DEE DOWNS: We've actually got ours hooked

5 up so it automatically downloads. So we don't need to do

6 anything else.

7 GUY DANSIE: It does it for you?

8 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah. As soon as they open up

9 Image Trend, they go in report. It automatically

10 downloads it into that. So the technology is out there,

11 if that's the problem.

12 SHARI HUNSAKER: So getting back to the rule --

13 this is Shari -- getting back to the rule if we address

14 the verbiage so that it's not -- it's very clear that

15 there is no expectation that you were uploading data

16 daily, could we at least move in the direction of

17 shortening the timeframe and with the support of our

18 dispatch centers get that information in more timely?

19 And Randy, you can always go into a report that

20 you've already submitted and edit the data and resubmit

21 that and it just comes in as amended. It doesn't

22 duplicate the previous patient care report. It just will

23 flag that it's been updated.

24 JAY DEE DOWNS: The problem is --

25 RANDY WILDEN: Yes, Shari, I know that and we're

Page 32

1 okay doing that if you're okay with this. That's what I'm

2 saying.

3 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yeah, as long as it does not

4 fail XML validation, you are fine.

5 JAY DEE DOWNS: The problem is --

6 RANDY WILDEN: As long as you're fine with

7 having holes in them, we're okay with that. We've tried

8 to have 100 percent submission. We're trying to do it as

9 accurate as possible, and so we've waited for these backup

10 records so we can go in and, quite frankly, firefighters

11 are always exact and accurate -- not. So we've been

12 trying to be accurate by backing up that information.

13 If you're okay with us submitting and then

14 coming back in and updating, we're going with that. I'm

15 okay shortening up that window, but the 14 days of the

16 event doesn't work.

17 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay. Thank you for that

18 feedback. And I do want to tell you how much I appreciate

19 your careful attention to detail in submitting accurate

20 data. Oh, that all agencies followed your lead.

21 What I can suggest is that if you put in your

22 best guess for the times because they are all required

23 elements, and if you leave a time blank, it will probably

24 fail XML validation. If you put in your best guess and

25 then have to go back in and update it, that would be okay



Pages 33 to 36

Page 33

1 too. But it sounds like you've got a potential solution

2 in the works with your dispatch center. So we just need

3 to focus our efforts now on changing the verbiage so that

4 the submission guidelines are clear.

5 JAY DEE DOWNS: One of the things you need to be

6 really careful of legality wise is going back in and

7 amending reports because if you ever have a problem where

8 you get a report summoned and all of a sudden now you're

9 going back in and changing times and stuff, it looks like

10 you're doctoring the report.

11 SHARI HUNSAKER: Well, if you make the edit and

12 add a narrative as to why you are doing it, you'd be

13 covered.

14 JAY DEE DOWNS: Not really.

15 SHARI HUNSAKER: In medical records that would

16 be sufficient.

17 JAY DEE DOWNS: In medical records but not in

18 court of law. That's what I'm basing mine on. We've been

19 down this road before.

20 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay.

21 GUY DANSIE: For -- just a suggestion instead of

22 14 days, should we say the first and 15th of each month,

23 something like that?

24 SHARI HUNSAKER: That would be fine.

25 DEAN YORK: You still achieve the same thing.

Page 34

1 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right. That would be fine.

2 GUY DANSIE: All data be current.

3 JAY DEE DOWNS: My question is what agencies are

4 you having trouble with this already? Is there

5 something -- when you say you've got agencies having

6 trouble with six months, why did it get to the six months?

7 I mean, do we need to do the enforcement things on these

8 guys? Why is it so far out? Are they big agencies? Are

9 they small agencies? Is it just an education thing? What

10 is it?

11 SHARI HUNSAKER: It's a very complicated issue.

12 It was exacerbated by my prolonged medical absence after

13 my back surgery and the very many hats that I wear. When

14 I did an audit the first part of this month, I had 25

15 agencies out of compliance. And there are more headaches

16 and problems than can be addressed by administrative rule

17 at this point.

18 For example, I found out that UFA has record of

19 500 more records for September of 2014 and their system

20 than got uploaded to Polaris. But just looking at the

21 numbers, I have no way of knowing that. I see I've got

22 several hundreds of records from you one day, it's more or

23 less consistent across the 12 months.

24 There has been no reconciliation process in the

25 past for us to verify that the number of reports in your

Page 35

1 native software equals the number of reports in Polaris.

2 That's something that I have to address completely

3 different.

4 In some of our Image Trend clients, if you have

5 one record that fails XML validation, it backs up all of

6 your other submissions.

7 JAY DEE DOWNS: It doesn't let anything else go

8 through?

9 SHARI HUNSAKER: It doesn't let anything else go

10 through until that one record is repaired. And so with

11 one of our large Salt Lake County agencies, I had received

12 no submissions since May 15th because of this one record

13 that had an incident number of one and the XML requirement

14 is that it be at least two characters long.

15 They went in and fixed that and I got all of

16 their data back up. But Image Trends protocol is to send

17 the email to the agency and wait until the agency fixes

18 it.

19 GUY DANSIE: Right.

20 SHARI HUNSAKER: And so --

21 RANDY WILDEN: Randy Wilden here.

22 SHARI HUNSAKER: Let me finish my thought,

23 Randy, before you --

24 RANDY WILDEN: I thought you were done. I'm

25 sorry.

Page 36

1 SHARI HUNSAKER: No, that's fine -- before you

2 add your comment.

3 So if we shortened this up to the first and the

4 15th, then I'd be able to identify those gaps in a much

5 more timely fashion.

6 The reason that some of these are six months

7 out, I own that. That's me. But it would certainly be to

8 the advantage of the hospitals that you are serving if we

9 could shorten up the timeframe.

10 Randy, I'm done.

11 RANDY WILDEN: Okay. I appreciate where you are

12 at trying to get data submitted because that's the same

13 boat I'm in trying to gather everything to get it to you.

14 And I don't have a problem if we have two submission

15 windows, but I do have a problem with us trying to do --

16 legislate an agency that won't do their job when, in fact,

17 hold up the grant money, send the director out, do

18 something. This just feels to me like a shotgun approach

19 to a high-powered rifle problem.

20 But I do -- I understand where you are coming

21 from and how you want to fix it, but I just think

22 legislatively fixing it probably is not the correct way

23 all the time. I am done.

24 SHARI HUNSAKER: If we -- thank you. I am

25 working with our compliance unit and will remain closely



Pages 37 to 40

Page 37

1 associated with them. When an agency continually refuses

2 to respond to my requests for data submission, then the

3 compliance unit will become involved. And I have used the

4 withholding of grant funds to get certain large urban

5 agencies to pay attention to 30,000 records that had --

6 not applicable for incident county. So I use all the

7 tricks of the trade but the compliance unit is tied by

8 administrative rule. They can't enforce something that

9 isn't covered by administrative rule. So this isn't our

10 only solution, but it's the stepping stones that I need so

11 that we can have a more proactive approach.

12 JIM GUYNN: Shari, I think I have a question --

13 I think I do have a question.

14 SHARI HUNSAKER: I think I have an answer.

15 JIM GUYNN: Talking about the 1st and the 16th,

16 the -- let's say that the 1st of February you would

17 actually be reporting the dataset from the 1st of January

18 to the 15th of January; is that correct? And then the

19 16th of January to the 31st of January would be on the

20 15th of February.


22 JIM GUYNN: Okay.

23 SHARI HUNSAKER: So we can specify that in rule

24 and just say incidents that, you know, occurring from the

25 1st to the 15th of the month are due to the State no later

Page 38

1 than the 20th, or whatever you want to do.

2 JIM GUYNN: Because I --

3 SHARI HUNSAKER: Or, you know, two weeks out.

4 JIM GUYNN: Right. I just understood -- I mean

5 with Randy's concern as well, now all of a sudden it's

6 like if you had the 1st and the 15th, are you responding

7 on the 16th of January for the 15th?


9 JIM GUYNN: They still may not have that data.

10 SHARI HUNSAKER: Let me think about this. So if

11 an incident occurred between January 1st and January 15th,

12 it would be due by January 31st.


14 SHARI HUNSAKER: Or 30th. If it occurred

15 between January 15th and January 31st, it would then be

16 due by February, right?

17 JIM GUYNN: 15th.

18 SHARI HUNSAKER: 15th.

19 JIM GUYNN: Yeah. And I guess that's just the

20 assumption I made. I don't know how to make it clear, but

21 --


23 JIM GUYNN: -- so you're not the --

24 SHARI HUNSAKER: I'm taking advantage of Jean's

25 presence here. Representing our trauma centers, would

Page 39

1 that shorten the timeframe enough to be beneficial to you?

2 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Oh, yeah. I mean, two weeks

3 is -- I mean, that's perfect if you can get it within two

4 weeks.


6 JIM GUYNN: Does that work?

7 JESS CAMPBELL: Yeah, our issue is getting

8 finished sheets from hospitals so we can complete the

9 report and some control.

10 JAY DEE DOWNS: You mean the demos? Is that

11 what you are talking about?

12 JESS CAMPBELL: We have two facilities in Utah

13 County that do not provide, do not feel it's required of

14 them to provide patient finished sheet by the time our

15 personnel leave. So it adds another layer of issue for

16 us.

17 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yeah, because our

18 administrative rule only requires that they provide you

19 with patient outcome data.

20 JESS CAMPBELL: Yeah, and we're actually not

21 required by rule to provide the hospitals any information

22 either.

23 SHARI HUNSAKER: Actually you are.

24 JESS CAMPBELL: So -- not -- not as far as our

25 written reports are concerned.

Page 40

1 SHARI HUNSAKER: It's in here somewhere. I'll

2 find it.

3 JEAN LUNDQUIST: You report to the State?

4 JESS CAMPBELL: We report to the State but not

5 to the receiving facility. We can --

6 SHARI HUNSAKER: I know it's addressed

7 somewhere.

8 JESS CAMPBELL: I just went through this with my

9 billing agency. We can take them in and say here they

10 are.

11 JAY DEE DOWNS: You updated patient condition?

12 JESS CAMPBELL: It's amount.

13 SHARI HUNSAKER: For each -- this will become

14 Section 12. "For each patient transported to a licensed

15 acute care facility or a specialty hospital with an

16 emergency department, each responding emergency medical

17 services provider unit that cared for the patient during

18 the incident shall provide a report of patient's status

19 containing information critical to the ongoing care of the

20 patient to the receiving facility within one hour after

21 the patient arrives at the receiving facility in at least

22 one of the following formats: NEMSIS XML or paper form."

23 JESS CAMPBELL: So then what needs to be backed

24 up with that is again to be able to allow us to be able to

25 complete our closeout loop is we need -- because the



Pages 41 to 44

Page 41

1 general attitude by some of the bigger facilities, um,

2 don't care. It's not -- it's not a priority.

3 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay, then No. 13, "For each

4 patient transported to a licensed acute care facility or a

5 specialty hospital with an emergency department, the

6 receiving facility shall provide at least the following

7 information to each emergency medical services provider

8 that cared for the patient upon request by the EMS

9 service -- the EMS provider; A, the patient's emergency

10 department disposition; and B, the patient's hospital

11 disposition."

12 I would propose adding and renumbering so it

13 goes A, B, C. And A would be the hospital face sheet with

14 patient demographic information.

15 JESS CAMPBELL: That would be huge. Absolutely.

16 GUY DANSIE: Let me change that.

17 JAY DEE DOWNS: That would be a good move.

18 SHARI HUNSAKER: Score.

19 LAUARA SNYDER: This is Lauara. I have

20 something, if you don't mind. On No. 12 where it talks

21 about receiving facility within one hour after the patient

22 has arrived, um, sometimes we can give them the paper copy

23 when we are at the hospital, but if our internet cards

24 aren't working on the ambulance, we can't send it --

25 electronic version till we're back in our shop, and that

Page 42

1 means two and a half hours later.

2 SHARI HUNSAKER: I understand that, Lauara, but

3 the rule does specify that you can either give them a

4 paper form or an electronic form within one hour. So I

5 think we've got you covered.

6 But before we jump ahead to that, I know I got

7 us way late, I'd like to back up and go through the rest

8 of this in order.

9 GUY DANSIE: Okay. Do you want me to capture

10 this part that you -- just --

11 SHARI HUNSAKER: Would you please?

12 GUY DANSIE: What did you say, just so I got it?

13 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Are you going to put --

14 SHARI HUNSAKER: The patients --

15 GUY DANSIE: Sorry.

16 SHARI HUNSAKER: In English. Demographic

17 information.

18 JESS CAMPBELL: Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

19 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Are they screaming HIPPA? Is

20 that the problem?

21 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah --

22 GUY DANSIE: Is that -- that's it? Just that?

23 SHARI HUNSAKER: Let's ask Jess. Is that

24 enough? Because it -- right now it's just upon request.

25 Do you want to put in a timeframe? Like we've got with --

Page 43

1 you have to give them the patient care report within an

2 hour. Do you want the face sheet within a certain period

3 of time?

4 JESS CAMPBELL: I think that within 24 hours

5 should give them plenty of time.


7 JAY DEE DOWNS: What are they claiming, Jess?

8 What are the hospitals saying?

9 JESS CAMPBELL: Just that it's not a priority

10 for them.

11 JAY DEE DOWNS: So they are not saying, like, we

12 can't give it to you because it's a rule? Is it an IHC

13 facility?

14 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Is it they just don't have

15 time?

16 JESS CAMPBELL: Yeah, IHC is primarily --

17 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah, we've got some problems

18 with those guys too. And finally we're able to curb it.

19 SHARI HUNSAKER: In following this conversation,

20 I would add to that "to provide at least the following

21 information to each emergency services provider that cared

22 for the patient within 24 hours of request."

23 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So what -- where's the meat

24 behind that, putting that in there for the hospitals? I

25 mean --

Page 44

1 JAY DEE DOWNS: What if they don't do it?

2 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah. I mean is that --

3 SHARI HUNSAKER: I'm going to sick you on them.

4 JEAN LUNDQUIST: -- is this going to be the

5 regulating body for the hospitals?


7 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Because that's great to say,

8 but I don't think it's going to change anything because

9 the hospital -- I --

10 SHARI HUNSAKER: Although, I am -- I am the data

11 steward over the ED dataset as well.


13 SHARI HUNSAKER: The Bureau has that onus and

14 that falls to me. And so I do have some regulatory chops

15 through a different administrative rule that governs the

16 ED data submission.

17 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Right. But you're talking -- I

18 think you're talking -- from what I've heard,

19 Intermountain facilities, their big freakout is the whole

20 HIPPA. You know, they don't understand HIPPA very well.

21 So they think that they can't give this and that and that

22 because of HIPPA requirements. And so, you know, I don't

23 think putting it into rule is going to change that

24 philosophy for them.

25 SHARI HUNSAKER: We also -- we do have a letter



Pages 45 to 48

Page 45

1 that Paul Patrick wrote several years ago that could be

2 distributed by EMS agencies to hospitals or to EMS

3 agencies stating that if they cared for the patient, they

4 could exchange that information without violating HIPPA.

5 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I know. I think you are

6 barking up the wrong tree. I don't think you are talking

7 to the right people to get it changed.

8 JEFF GRUNOW: I agree.

9 SHARI HUNSAKER: Putting it here -- putting it

10 here is for the mental health and wellbeing of the

11 agencies at this point in time just to give them something

12 that they can fall back to. But I agree with you, it is

13 not the panacea that it will magically happen now because

14 it's in administrative rule.

15 LAUARA SNYDER: And this might be a question for

16 Heather, and I don't think she's there, but can the Bureau

17 and through these rules can we dictate to other agencies

18 or organizations, because are the hospitals under the

19 Bureau of EMS that if we write a rule, that they have to

20 abide by it?

21 SHARI HUNSAKER: Some of them are, yes, they

22 are.

23 GUY DANSIE: It's in the statute. If they

24 receive patients --

25 JOLENE WHITNEY: All of them are. They are

Page 46

1 either designated as a trauma center or they are

2 designated as a resource hospital.

3 SHARI HUNSAKER: That was from Jolene Whitney.

4 She's far enough from the speaker, I'm not sure you heard

5 her. But we can include that in our designation visits,

6 could we not?

7 JOLENE WHITNEY: Uh-huh.

8 SHARI HUNSAKER: And if they are not providing

9 that information, then their status as a designated or

10 resource hospital would be in jeopardy.

11 GUY DANSIE: Correct. If they receive patients

12 by an ambulance, we have authority.

13 JAY DEE DOWNS: Hey, Jolene, are they designated

14 like everybody else is?

15 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yes.

16 JAY DEE DOWNS: So could this be like -- could

17 this be like a black mark on there redesignation?

18 JOLENE WHITNEY: Uh-huh.

19 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yeah, that's what I just said.

20 JAY DEE DOWNS: So if they -- I'm just

21 processing it.

22 GUY DANSIE: He's been to the dentist.

23 JAY DEE DOWNS: I just don't know and -- I don't

24 know.

25 SHARI HUNSAKER: Now I've nailed more than one

Page 47

1 hospital on data submission and data compliance and other

2 issues before. I mean, it's not -- I don't go out and do

3 the designation visits, but my feedback is sought. And

4 when I -- I can gather the data.

5 JAY DEE DOWNS: I think personally with the

6 episode we went through with them, I think if maybe a

7 little pressure from the top came down, they would

8 probably submit and start submitting them. I think right

9 now they're just saying that's just another step we don't

10 want to do.

11 JEAN LUNDQUIST: What is the expectation, that

12 they give you a copy while you are there in the ER? And

13 that's what they are not doing, they are not willing to

14 do?

15 JAY DEE DOWNS: If they do that, the guys go

16 back and report right off the bat.

17 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Right.

18 JAY DEE DOWNS: But if they do that -- like, say

19 for example, you take a patient in there, you don't have a

20 name or anything, then they go back to the station and

21 then what happens is they go off shift, now you are four

22 or five days; now we're chasing them down. Now you are

23 going back to the hospital saying we need the demographics

24 and IHC Hospital says, nope, you are going to have to go

25 to Salt Lake and get it. So now you are chasing it out of

Page 48

1 Salt Lake to get a demographic that happened four days

2 ago. So if you don't get it when you get right at the

3 ER --

4 DEAN YORK: You are hit.

5 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah, you are chasing it through

6 the woods.

7 SHARI HUNSAKER: So what I am hearing is that

8 there is room for improvement on both sides of the

9 communication aisle. You know, and hopefully as we

10 regionalize our EMS system, that it would open up those

11 channels of communication so hospitals and EMS agencies

12 will come to understand that they are all members of the

13 same team and they are all trying to provide the best

14 patient care possible and that there's no reason that it

15 need be an adversarial type of relationship.

16 JESS CAMPBELL: No, but because of their

17 unwillingness to provide the information, it puts our

18 people in the position of having to ask questions that

19 creates the perception that you are not about patient

20 care, you are about my insurance coverage. And that's --

21 has nothing to do with it. It's the fact we can't get

22 that information --


24 JESS CAMPBELL: -- in a timely manner from the

25 hospital, that our personnel are now having to start



Pages 49 to 52

Page 49

1 asking for, or ask somebody, you know, a family member for

2 who's your carrier, you know, some starting point.

3 SHARI HUNSAKER: Well, and as far as that goes,

4 again, you can always put in a pertinent negative that it

5 was not available, but ideally I'd like to get the

6 hospitals and agencies working together to share the data.

7 JEAN LUNDQUIST: You have to bill.

8 JIM GUYNN: You know, the other thing is too is

9 if you are --

10 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yeah, you do have -- if you are

11 billing, that's true.

12 JAY DEE DOWNS: If you look at the dataset and

13 you want your dates, if you are chasing a report through

14 Salt Lake because you didn't get the demographic, you

15 easily -- you could be easily a month out. Seriously.

16 TERESA BRUNT: This is Teresa. I'm having a

17 hard time with that. Who are you asking? Are you calling

18 the emergency room, or who are you looking --

19 JEAN LUNDQUIST: No. It's got to be medical

20 records, don't you think?

21 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah. It goes back down through

22 medical records and stuff because you have to go --

23 this -- now that's the one IHC hospital we've dealt with,

24 we've had to get it out of Salt Lake.

25 TERESA BRUNT: You can always call me.

Page 50

1 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah, see I think that's

2 fixable.

3 JESS CAMPBELL: So we'll put in rule here "Call

4 Teresa."

5 JAY DEE DOWNS: Day or night.

6 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yeah, it's in administrative

7 rule now, Teresa.

8 TERESA BRUNT: Okay. Let me reach out to my

9 medical records people and say, hey, what's up with this?

10 Because I can't imagine why that information wouldn't be

11 available.

12 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah, I think that's a

13 procedure thing that we can fix. I think that's --

14 JAY DEE DOWNS: I think we finally got it fixed

15 and it basically -- what gave ours a snafu is they changed

16 the operation. They changed it to totally paperless.

17 SHARI HUNSAKER: I have an idea for where you

18 were --

19 JAY DEE DOWNS: And that's what's like, well, we

20 have a paper trail.

21 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- after that period EMS

22 dataset.

23 JAY DEE DOWNS: So they finally figured out

24 where to go to another place and get it, but it was quite

25 a process for a while.

Page 51

1 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So it's the I Center.


3 TERESA BRUNT: Well, I Center has a hit for most

4 of the region, yes. So I mean, who do you want me to send

5 feedback to you guy, or to who?

6 JAY DEE DOWNS: To you Guy? Do you want it to

7 come back to you?

8 GUY DANSIE: Sure. That would be good.

9 TERESA BRUNT: Okay.

10 JAY DEE DOWNS: Because I know our billers had

11 to chase them down through Salt Lake, and it's absolutely

12 a nightmare for him.


14 SHARI HUNSAKER: Incidence occurring between the

15 1st and 15th of a calendar month shall be submitted no

16 later than the last day of the month.

17 GUY DANSIE: On the last day of the month?

18 SHARI HUNSAKER: Uh-huh.


20 SHARI HUNSAKER: Semicolon. Incidence occurring

21 between the 16th and the last day of a calendar month

22 shall be submitted no later than the 15th of the following

23 month.

24 GUY DANSIE: Does that work?

25 SHARI HUNSAKER: Can everybody review that and

Page 52

1 tell me if -- and I'll read it for you, Randy, because I

2 don't know if you guys have video or not.

3 Back up to the proposed No. 5, we've worked on

4 the verbiage for the submission. So it now reads,

5 "Emergency medical services providers shall submit NEMSIS

6 EMS incident data elements for each patient care report

7 within 14 days" -- we're striking that 14 days.

8 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.

9 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay. So "Shall submit NEMSIS

10 EMS incident data elements for each patient care report in

11 the format defined in the NEMSIS EMS dataset as follows:

12 Incidents occurring between the 1st and 15th of a calendar

13 month shall be submitted no later than the last day of the

14 same calendar month; incidents occurring between the 16th

15 and last day of a calendar month shall be submitted no

16 later than the 15th of the following calendar month." End

17 of paragraph.

18 RANDY WILDEN: Sold says Randy. It works for

19 me.


21 RANDY WILDEN: I don't know what everybody talks

22 about it, but that works for us. We can make it happen.

23 JESS CAMPBELL: It's all about you, Randy.

24 RANDY WILDEN: Thanks, Jess.

25 JESS CAMPBELL: We're meeting for you.



Pages 53 to 56

Page 53

1 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay. I'm sorry to be taking

2 up so much of your time, but we're on to the next painful

3 subject. No. 6.

4 GUY DANSIE: Okay. Here, just an explanation.

5 Because -- let me just roll back up, and I will change it

6 back if this doesn't make sense, Shari.

7 Because we talked about the dates, the times, in

8 my mind it sounds like we should break it out for an A,

9 this type we do that, and B, for that type we do that.

10 SHARI HUNSAKER: I don't have a problem with

11 that.

12 GUY DANSIE: Is that okay?

13 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yeah, that's fine.

14 GUY DANSIE: That just seemed to make sense to

15 me. Instead of having -- I think you had it as a

16 following sentence and then a new number.

17 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay. That's fine.

18 GUY DANSIE: So I just -- I took that liberty.

19 I hope that's okay.

20 SHARI HUNSAKER: That's fine.

21 In our current world, agencies are free to use

22 whichever third-party vendor they choose for collecting

23 patient care report data and uploading it into Polaris.

24 However, they can't just willy-nilly do that and expect

25 that their data is going to come through cleanly.

Page 54

1 So we've had a longstanding policy that agencies

2 need to submit some test records to me so that I can go

3 through and make sure that the vendor is sending us good

4 data that will pass XML validation. And it can take a

5 couple of weeks of give and take between me and the vendor

6 and emailing back and forth on the feedback before I will

7 approve their two datasets: Their demographic dataset and

8 their patient care report dataset. But there's been

9 nothing in administrative rule that says that has to be

10 done.

11 And so I've got contacted by maybe half a dozen

12 agencies in the last two years that have told me that we

13 switched over to Zoll or we switched over to Image Trend

14 three months ago when I call them and ask why I don't have

15 any data coming from them. Because at the very least I

16 need to give them rights to upload their data.

17 And so I'm proposing that we add a section that

18 basically says that they need to obtain approval from the

19 department prior to uploading data if they are not using

20 the State's hosted service. Whether it's following the

21 change of software or a major update.

22 So as your agency -- you are using Image Trend,

23 when you switch over to Elite and submitting version

24 3.3.4, I'll need to go through this validation process to

25 make sure that everything is being received correctly.

Page 55

1 So I'd just like to add that because I had an

2 agency argue with me because there was nothing in rule

3 that I'll show you --

4 RANDY WILDEN: Randy here.

5 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- I'll ask it to be a rule.

6 RANDY WILDEN: I don't have a problem but maybe

7 you want to put in there provider must obtain approval

8 after validation or after testing or after something the

9 department will provide permission for you -- for them to

10 use the system --

11 SHARI HUNSAKER: Well, if they were to contact

12 me to find out how to get approval, I would tell them what

13 the process is. I've got it outlined. I can send them a

14 written document of our policy and procedure. But if you

15 want more than that in the rule, we can certainly talk

16 about it.

17 RANDY WILDEN: But you said you are not getting

18 people to comply with it now. That's why I'm saying if

19 they knew they needed to submit some test data, contact

20 you and submit test data so that you could validate it and

21 then you would give them access to the system, then they

22 understand it better. I'm just trying to help you solve

23 your problem. That's my only comment.

24 SHARI HUNSAKER: I appreciate that. I guess I

25 was just trying to keep this as simple as possible. And,

Page 56

1 you know, they would -- just asking them to obtain

2 approval from the department, it's -- just like if you

3 applied for reciprocity or something like that, the entire

4 process is not outlined in rule. We have internal

5 policies and procedures that have to be followed before we

6 can grant an EMS provider, a reciprocity certification.

7 JESS CAMPBELL: I think you can add --

8 SHARI HUNSAKER: I had from the data manager,

9 but my peeps suggested that we make it the department.

10 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I missed some -- I'm sorry. Do

11 they need approval from you to get a new one or they just

12 need to talk to you so that you can interface?

13 SHARI HUNSAKER: They need my approval so I can

14 flip the switch to accept their data.

15 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Okay. But they don't need --

16 they don't need your approval to buy a new system --


18 JEAN LUNDQUIST: That's what it sounds like to

19 me.

20 SHARI HUNSAKER: For emergency medical services

21 providers, using a reporting system other than that

22 provided by the department, the provider must obtain

23 approval from the department prior to uploading any data

24 to the department provided system, whether following a

25 system installation or major upgrade.



Pages 57 to 60

Page 57

1 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Is approval the right word?

2 JESS CAMPBELL: I would say clarification. Is

3 it an approval or validation? It sounds like a testing

4 validation process needs to be gone through. It's not so

5 much that you are saying, yeah, go ahead and buy Zoll.

6 SHARI HUNSAKER: The only problem I have with

7 that is that every vendor of pre-hospital data systems out

8 there will tell you that they are passing XML validation.

9 And whether or not they are passing national XML

10 validation or not, they have to pass the State validation,

11 including how we spell the names of all of our hospitals,

12 how we spell the names of all of our drugs. It's a

13 very -- it can get very complicated depending on the

14 vendor.

15 JESS CAMPBELL: So I would just add after

16 approval, just put approval and validation from the

17 department --

18 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So again, a clarification --

19 JAY DEE DOWNS: How about validation approval?

20 JESS CAMPBELL: Okay.

21 JAY DEE DOWNS: I mean that's schematic, is it?

22 SHARI HUNSAKER: Because XML validation, in that

23 context, validation means something completely different

24 than whether or not I validate you as a person or an

25 agency.

Page 58

1 JEAN LUNDQUIST: But it sounds like to me you

2 are trying to say you can't buy this until you have my

3 approval to say the words.

4 SHARI HUNSAKER: And that's not my intent.

5 That's why I specifically said that before they uploaded

6 any new data, they have to have my approval. They can go

7 buy anything they want to, but don't just --

8 DEAN YORK: There's not an approved vendor list?

9 SHARI HUNSAKER: No, there's no approved vendor

10 list. You can use any -- BYU developed their own system.

11 I don't care what you are using, but you have to let me

12 know what system is going to be sending the data, and I

13 have to look at a sample file to make sure that it is --

14 DEAN YORK: Meeting the criteria.

15 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- meeting all of the criteria.

16 JESS CAMPBELL: That all the information is

17 coming through.


19 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So then you want them to

20 contact the department and say -- and set up the process

21 for uploading.

22 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right. Generally, it's -- we

23 just bought Image Trend, and here's the name of our

24 support person, and it's usually Troy Whipple, and he

25 sends me the XML file. And just because Image Trend has

Page 59

1 other clients in the state, do not believe that they are

2 automatically smart enough to know exactly what the State

3 needs because I go through this every single time with

4 them. Please provide evidence of support of multiple

5 acceptable values.

6 JAY DEE DOWNS: I know it's a play on words,

7 that's the reason I was saying validation approval.

8 Because the way it sounds right now is you have to receive

9 your approval and the validation. All you are looking for

10 is a validation that it works -- that it goes through your

11 system.

12 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right once I -- once I have --

13 JAY DEE DOWNS: So if you say validation

14 approval, it says the validation has been approved and

15 it's ready to work.


17 JAY DEE DOWNS: You are not approving what they

18 are giving to you, you want -- you want to approve that

19 what goes through, goes through.


21 JAY DEE DOWNS: That's what I meant, Jess.

22 JESS CAMPBELL: And I agree with your

23 statements.

24 SHARI HUNSAKER: And that's fine. I have no

25 problem with that.

Page 60

1 JAY DEE DOWNS: Because I can see --

2 SHARI HUNSAKER: You guys know my intent. You

3 can change the words.

4 JAY DEE DOWNS: What it kind of sounds like to

5 me when you read that, it sounds like I have called up,

6 and I've got to get your approval to go with this vendor,

7 sort of stuff, and then I've got to validate it?


9 GUY DANSIE: Would the word "notification" -- I

10 mean, that's really what we're doing is notifying the

11 department.

12 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I like notification.

13 SHARI HUNSAKER: But it's more than

14 notification.


16 JAY DEE DOWNS: It's validation of approval.

17 SHARI HUNSAKER: It's just not letting you know.

18 SUZANNE BARTON: One at a time.

19 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yeah.

20 JAY DEE DOWNS: It's validate -- it's to make

21 sure their product goes through and that's your validation

22 process.

23 SHARI HUNSAKER: So we can -- must obtain

24 validation approval.




Pages 61 to 64

Page 61

1 JAY DEE DOWNS: So now I'm saying all I've got

2 to do is make sure my stuff goes through, it's going

3 through validation, it's approved, I'm on my way, I'm

4 good. That's the way I look at it.

5 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I like notification.

6 SHARI HUNSAKER: The reason I don't like

7 notification, Jean, is that you can call me and leave me a

8 message and I've been notified.


10 SHARI HUNSAKER: But that's not enough.

11 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I know.

12 SHARI HUNSAKER: I have to go through the whole

13 process of looking at the data.

14 JEFF GRUNOW: What if you went "The EMS provider

15 shall notify to obtain validation approval"? And that's a

16 little -- because it seems a little harsh to me. I know

17 this isn't my area, but I --

18 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Right. You really want them --

19 SHARI HUNSAKER: That's fine.

20 JEAN LUNDQUIST: -- they really want to talk to

21 you so that they can fix and make sure it works, right?

22 Because that's what you want them to do.

23 JAY DEE DOWNS: Basically you are saying here,

24 is the stuff I'm going through, I'm going through it.


Page 62

1 JAY DEE DOWNS: You know, I can upload the stuff

2 and I can start saying, well, I've got my favorite party

3 vendor here. I'm uploading it. It's going down there.

4 It's going down there. And what she is saying is, wait a

5 minute. It's coming in, but it's not -- it's coming in

6 corrupted.


8 JAY DEE DOWNS: So you've got to have some sort

9 of a test to make sure everything works before you flip

10 the switch and say we are going to accept it.


12 SHARI HUNSAKER: I don't have any problem with

13 putting in "notify the department to obtain validation

14 approval."

15 JEFF GRUNOW: You get a twofer out of that

16 sentence that way. They -- you have now told them you

17 have to call. And you've also told them what they are

18 trying to do. Because you're right about that. They can

19 be uploading all this stuff and it's garbage.

20 SHARI HUNSAKER: Well, or Polaris won't accept

21 it if it fails XML validation. So it's -- the point is

22 moot. They think they are uploading, but they are not.

23 JAY DEE DOWNS: But then you're getting your

24 validation approval until you are done. It doesn't

25 matter. It's just a play on words.

Page 63

1 SHARI HUNSAKER: Generally what happens if --

2 maybe if I explain the whole process. A vendor sends me

3 some test files into our development server. I look at

4 those. I provide them feedback on an Excel spreadsheet,

5 tell them what to fix, they send me another sample. That

6 goes back and forth on the patient care report dataset.

7 And then I say, "I am recommending you for approval" or "I

8 am approving you for uploading patient care reports for

9 this agency." And then I go into that vendor's account

10 within the State's system and I add that agency to the

11 list of clients for whom they are authorized to upload

12 data.

13 Then I look at the demographic dataset and

14 verify the names of all their personnel, their EMS IDs,

15 all of their vehicles, the employment status, all of that

16 good stuff. And then I say, okay, you have misspelled

17 MountainStar Air Care. It has to be spelled this way for

18 the State of Utah.

19 And oxygen through a cannula is different than

20 oxygen through a mask for the State of Utah. So you need

21 to add those to your list of procedures or your list of

22 medications.

23 And once all of that is done, and that's usually

24 a shorter process, then I approve the agency for uploading

25 the demographic dataset for that client as well. But in

Page 64

1 all cases, it -- it is wrapped up after I've flipped the

2 switch, I send an email to both the vendor and the agency

3 letting them know they are good to go.

4 GUY DANSIE: So are we okay with the word

5 "validation approval"? We debated it. Talked about it.

6 Are we okay with that?

7 SHARI HUNSAKER: It's a dead horse as far as I'm

8 concerned. We can beat it to death.

9 GUY DANSIE: Shall we move on then?

10 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yep. No changes except the

11 number on the next section.

12 And then Section 8 is changing the required

13 elements for the demographic dataset. Because we had

14 listed a lot of elements here that the State does not

15 require.

16 GUY DANSIE: So we're striking all of these --


18 GUY DANSIE: Basically we're striking several.

19 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So is this -- is this the same

20 thing as the -- when we talked about the NEMSIS -- no --

21 SHARI HUNSAKER: NEMSIS.

22 JEAN LUNDQUIST: The NEMSIS. Is this the same

23 list?

24 SHARI HUNSAKER: NEMSIS has two datasets, the

25 demographic dataset where all the elements are preceded



Pages 65 to 68

Page 65

1 with the letter D, and the patient care report dataset

2 where all the elements are preceded with the letter E.

3 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Didn't back here, what was the

4 one we talked about back here?

5 SHARI HUNSAKER: But we are adopting by

6 reference.

7 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah. Is this that same stuff?

8 SHARI HUNSAKER: It's related to it, yes.

9 JEAN LUNDQUIST: But it's not the same data

10 points?

11 SHARI HUNSAKER: Correct.

12 So, in addition to requiring all national

13 demographic data elements, so the ones I've stricken here

14 are national data elements. Okay? And what I've left

15 remaining are those optional demographic elements that the

16 State is requiring.

17 And that the same thing is true on the next

18 section to a couple of pages back where I've stricken all

19 of the national elements and have just left the State

20 required elements.

21 You'll all be happy to know when we go with

22 version 3, there are fewer elements but more acceptable

23 values for those elements. So we go from like a thousand

24 medications to 12,000. No big deal.

25 And then the remaining of the document is just

Page 66

1 changing the numbers.

2 GUY DANSIE: Just as a process question, how do

3 we determine what's acceptable data and what's not, the

4 ones we are dropping? Is there just -- is it just based

5 on our --

6 SHARI HUNSAKER: By default if in the data

7 dictionary it's identified as a national element, such as

8 the agency number, that's a national element, it would be

9 stricken from this list. Because we are saying in

10 addition to requiring all national demographic data

11 elements, the following demographic data elements are

12 required under this rule.

13 And then I used that same verbiage on the next

14 section starting with the new No. 9, in addition to

15 requiring all national patient care report data elements,

16 the following patient care report data elements are

17 required under this rule. And so I've struck all of the

18 national elements and left those that the State requires

19 in addition to the national. And by referencing that data

20 dictionary earlier in the rule --

21 GUY DANSIE: Captured those.

22 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- we've covered all those

23 national elements.

24 GUY DANSIE: Captured in the reference.

25 JIM GUYNN: In an effort to clean this up a

Page 67

1 little bit and make it more simple, in the same fashion

2 that we took out of administrative rule the actual

3 required items to be carried --

4 GUY DANSIE: List.

5 JIM GUYNN: -- is there a way to do something

6 similar that the department can have their list and you

7 can change that as you need and not have to go back in and

8 change administrative rule? Does that make sense?

9 SHARI HUNSAKER: It does. And I wish that it

10 were so, but I've been told by wiser folks than I with

11 more experience that this is the way it has to be.

12 GUY DANSIE: In the past, now this is just --

13 we've been told by previous AG's counsel that we had to

14 have drug equipment lists, things of that nature in rule.

15 And then as Brittany has come on board, we've found that

16 that's not necessarily the case. Because when we get a

17 new attorney, we get a new set of opinions. So we've

18 taken that out of rule to make it more flexible so it's

19 easier to change.

20 SHARI HUNSAKER: That would make my life a lot

21 easier for this and the trauma rule.

22 JIM GUYNN: It's actually still in rule --

23 GUY DANSIE: It's referenced.

24 JIM GUYNN: -- the rule references the approved,

25 you know, the department approved list. So instead of --

Page 68

1 SHARI HUNSAKER: That would be fabulous.

2 JIM GUYNN: -- being 14 pages of this, can it

3 just be the department approved dataset, and then you

4 create that same list, but now all of a sudden that goes

5 to the agencies so they know what they have to have in

6 their dataset --

7 SHARI HUNSAKER: And it's a link on our website.


9 SHARI HUNSAKER: And always has been.

10 JIM GUYNN: Correct. And you don't have to

11 change because nausea and vomiting goes away. So now all

12 of a sudden you have to open the rule and change it and

13 send it out to public comment and everything else. It

14 just seems to me like we could really make this a whole

15 lot more streamlined.

16 SHARI HUNSAKER: I would love to do that if we

17 can do that.

18 GUY DANSIE: Let's ask Brittany --


20 GUY DANSIE: -- and get her take on it. And if

21 we can -- I know that this rule when it was written

22 previously was with Lyle's input and now I think we might

23 have a chance to pull it out.

24 SHARI HUNSAKER: You asked where the link would

25 be.



Pages 69 to 72

Page 69

1 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.

2 SHARI HUNSAKER: It's under -- it's on our

3 parent's website.

4 JAY DEE DOWNS: I didn't ask that. What I was

5 just saying, would you create another -- last time we did

6 it with the licensing for the rule -- for the equipment --

7 SUZANNE BARTON: Equipment list.

8 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah. Where would we put that?

9 JEAN LUNDQUIST: And medication.

10 JAY DEE DOWNS: Would that be part of licensing

11 or would it be part of --

12 GUY DANSIE: The data?

13 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah, it could be its standalone

14 document.

15 GUY DANSIE: Probably could be its own thing.

16 We could do that internally --

17 SHARI HUNSAKER: And on our Bureau website there

18 is a data section that has a link already in it that lists

19 all of the elements.

20 GUY DANSIE: As long as --

21 JAY DEE DOWNS: I don't understand why it needs

22 to be in rule is my problem because all it is --

23 GUY DANSIE: It was probably -- I'm just

24 assuming it was a leftover from Lyle and I'm seeing the

25 nods in the back. So I would propose if you would want to

Page 70

1 streamline it, we ask Brittany, get her legal opinion --

2 SHARI HUNSAKER: Absolutely.

3 GUY DANSIE: -- if she's okay with it, we move

4 to take it -- strike all of this out of the rule --


6 GUY DANSIE: And just have --

7 SHARI HUNSAKER: And then just refer to the data

8 dictionary.

9 GUY DANSIE: We will have to have a printed

10 policy that can be referenced.


12 JAY DEE DOWNS: You could just have the process

13 there and go from there.

14 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.

15 JAY DEE DOWNS: I think it's a good idea.

16 JESS CAMPBELL: Subsequently be the compliance

17 list, data compliance list.


19 JESS CAMPBELL: And we'd know that it will be

20 fluid.

21 JAY DEE DOWNS: Otherwise, this is really a

22 painstaking thing to change a couple of data elements for

23 --

24 SHARI HUNSAKER: Think of how much fun I had.

25 JAY DEE DOWNS: This is --

Page 71

1 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, it works much better. I'm

2 not speaking for your program, but our program where we're

3 dealing with the drug equipment, it's much easier to

4 change it. Because if we get a new piece of equipment

5 that saves lives, why spend two years going through a

6 process --

7 SHARI HUNSAKER: Absolutely.

8 GUY DANSIE: -- instead of updating it?

9 SHARI HUNSAKER: And see I have my medication

10 list and everything else that --

11 GUY DANSIE: Because the medications might

12 change quickly too. I don't know if that will impact your

13 list of data elements.

14 SHARI HUNSAKER: It certainly will because all

15 the vendors will have to add that medication.

16 JAY DEE DOWNS: Should we take a potty break?

17 SUZANNE BARTON: Yeah, Susan needs --

18 JAY DEE DOWNS: Take 10 or 15?

19 GUY DANSIE: Yeah. Let's take a break. You

20 okay with that?

21 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yeah, I'm fine with that.

22 (Break taken)

23 GUY DANSIE: Let's get this wrapped up.

24 We'll go ahead and start. So I think we're --

25 we were content with the wording, if everybody is okay

Page 72

1 with that. And we were going to -- let me make a motion

2 to strike -- if under the Attorney General's approval we

3 can strike the list and reference that.

4 SHARI HUNSAKER: Of the data elements.

5 GUY DANSIE: Of the data elements. So we'd

6 entertain --

7 JESS CAMPBELL: I'd like to make a motion we

8 approve as currently written R426-7 and specifically

9 dealing with the data system rules, along with the

10 recommendation whichever way legal feels should go with

11 respect to whether we leave in the data points or take

12 them out and place them in reference.

13 DEAN YORK: I'll second the motion.

14 GUY DANSIE: Okay. Go ahead and vote. Jay

15 should probably be doing this.

16 JAY DEE DOWNS: No, go ahead you started it.

17 GUY DANSIE: Okay. All that are in favor vote

18 aye.

19 COLLECTIVELY: Aye.

20 GUY DANSIE: Anybody just voting objection -- I

21 can't remember what it's called.

22 SHARI HUNSAKER: Opposed.

23 GUY DANSIE: Anybody opposed?

24 RANDY WILDEN: Randy, aye.

25 GUY DANSIE: So are you opposing?



Pages 73 to 76

Page 73

1 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Randy said aye.

2 GUY DANSIE: Okay. You're not.

3 RANDY WILDEN: Randy, I'm an aye.

4 GUY DANSIE: All right. Anybody abstain?

5 RANDY WILDEN: I couldn't get in fast enough.

6 GUY DANSIE: All right. No worries. Anybody

7 abstained?

8 Okay, the motion carries. We will present this

9 to the EMS Committee and go from there, and with

10 Brittany's approval and go from there.

11 SHARI HUNSAKER: Thank you so much. I always

12 enjoy any opportunity I have to interface with you folks.

13 GUY DANSIE: Thank you, Shari.

14 JAY DEE DOWNS: Thanks.

15 GUY DANSIE: I'll save that and exit.

16 JAY DEE DOWNS: Does Brittany have to go through

17 that herself?

18 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, we will modify any, like,

19 inconsistent wording. I've explained that to Shari.

20 Like, I saw a "must" in the there and changed it to

21 "shall". And I know provider was capitalized there and

22 the rest of it wasn't -- just like wording --

23 JAY DEE DOWNS: Not screw up the intent.

24 GUY DANSIE: No, we -- and if you feel like we

25 have, I will -- I will send you a copy out and if there's

Page 74

1 any -- anybody that feels upset with anything that

2 Brittany may have tweaked, we'll consider that and go from

3 there. It's always kind of a rough spot for everybody.

4 Okay. The second part of our agenda was -- and

5 I probably should let Jake -- I feel like I'm conducting

6 and Jake probably should be.

7 JAY DEE DOWNS: No. You conduct. Man, you're

8 good. Go ahead.

9 GUY DANSIE: We have -- Paul Patrick wanted this

10 group to organize itself similar to the peer review board.

11 I think you were all here when he talked about that a

12 little bit. And so I would just like to entertain -- I've

13 printed a hard copy and I just started this morning to --

14 and I've just retitled it, but it's basically the peer

15 review board piece of rule that's out for public comment

16 right now. And if we want to use that as a starting point

17 and make -- and modify it as needed.

18 Also, I've given you back when we organized this

19 group, Jay, Jolene, Whitney and myself sat down and tried

20 to write out a few things to kind of give us some clarity

21 on what our intent was. And I've given you a copy of the

22 EMS Rules Task Force Directive dated December 17th, 2013.

23 And I realize that was our vision at that time and things

24 have changed and maybe we need to review and modify and

25 change this group so that it fits our needs.

Page 75

1 JAY DEE DOWNS: So basically what you are saying

2 is we need the rules, so how we operate.

3 GUY DANSIE: Correct.

4 JAY DEE DOWNS: Do we need rules then who -- how

5 we put people on the board or how that's filled?

6 GUY DANSIE: I would think so.

7 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Isn't that what this is?

8 GUY DANSIE: We had or --

9 JAY DEE DOWNS: What disciplines they represent?


11 MS. NELSON: Did you send that off?

12 GUY DANSIE: No, I just barely pulled this off.

13 I apologize. I could email this to you afterwards if

14 you'd like. I just thought maybe it would give somebody,

15 you know, in the room or -- I apologize I didn't get it

16 sent to you, but something just to work from. I figure we

17 probably are going to start somewhat fresh and look at the

18 rule and just create new language.

19 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah. If there's anything in

20 the past that you want to hold onto, you're more than

21 welcome to, but I just -- basically rescind the old policy

22 that we developed as we started this group and just pick,

23 pick anything that may, may -- what's that?

24 LAUARA SNYDER: It's difficult to see what you

25 are doing and what's shown up there when we're on the

Page 76

1 phone and then hear us on the phone.

2 GUY DANSIE: Yeah. How about I'll try and

3 reference it or anything of that nature, but for those of

4 you in the room or those on the phone, we'll explain

5 anything that you see there clearly and loudly so that

6 everybody on the phone understands.

7 Some of the things we did originally, we just

8 quoted like the department powers, part of statute that

9 authorize this group. We wanted to have a liaison to the

10 EMS Committee. The Bureau was going to be responsible for

11 administrative support, agenda items, and the rule

12 approval process.

13 Committee members were to be appointed at terms

14 of two, three and four years. That was one of the things

15 that we'd adopted originally. That way we'd stagger the

16 terms so that people wouldn't be leaving at the same time.

17 JESS CAMPBELL: But I think there's one thing we

18 didn't clarify was who was the two, who was the three, and

19 who was the four.

20 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, probably a lot of loose ends.

21 It was kind of a starting point for us. But like I said,

22 it was -- we need to formalize it, put it in rule. It

23 basically lists the different titles of organizations or

24 representation from different groups. And those groups

25 included the Fire Chiefs Association, EMS Directors



Pages 77 to 80

Page 77

1 Association, the EMS Medical Director, law enforcement,

2 private EMS, APCO Medical Dispatch rep, dispatch

3 inoperability rep, hospital. We had air ambulance on

4 there. We've never had -- some of these groups have never

5 materialized when we solicited our initial applications.

6 We didn't have any responses from some of these groups.

7 So --

8 JESS CAMPBELL: So do we leave them on then

9 or --

10 GUY DANSIE: That's what I am asking. I think

11 we start fresh and if we want to create new group. How do

12 you feel about it, Jay?

13 JAY DEE DOWNS: I think when we first set it up,

14 we -- we tried to do a flock shot of everybody who would

15 be involved in EMS.


17 JAY DEE DOWNS: Right.

18 GUY DANSIE: Just a cross section, broad cross

19 section.

20 JAY DEE DOWNS: And we tried to get people from

21 different parts of the state to be involved in it, rural,

22 urban, that sort of stuff. And so I kind of echo what Guy

23 said here is I think that we go through the list and say,

24 you know, they haven't had any interest now, they are not

25 here now, or do we need to extend another invitation to

Page 78

1 them? What do we need to do? I mean, you know, some of

2 them are already involved. Like the helicopter one, that

3 one's probably already --

4 GUY DANSIE: They already have a committee.

5 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah, they have a committee.

6 And when they came to us anyway in the rules, they really

7 kind of did their own little thing. They didn't really

8 come here. You know what I mean?

9 GUY DANSIE: Right. In the meantime, Paul --

10 that used to be a task force. Paul gave them some

11 autonomy and said, hey, you guys operate as a committee.

12 Anything that the -- the Air Ambulance Committee at this

13 point resolves to do we will adopt that and go from there.

14 So when we bring things to this group from the

15 Air Ambulance Committee we do it as a courtesy but we

16 also -- you know, this group has pretty much adopted

17 everything verbatim that they've asked for. So that's why

18 really there isn't a reason for them to be here as well as

19 in the other group. Some of those are already represented

20 that way.

21 Do we want to go through and look at the EMS

22 Rules Task Force? They attempted in rule to identify

23 different types of representation. And I don't know if we

24 want to have this group mirror that, or if you would

25 rather have just our own list of positions?

Page 79

1 Obviously, we're not going to kick anybody off

2 that's on this group at this point.

3 LAUARA SNYDER: This is Lauara. I like the

4 positions that we initially -- or Jay and Jolene, whoever

5 set them up. I like that makeup. I think it twists a

6 little bit. I don't like the new 16th member

7 organizational position.

8 So my vote is to stick with what we have and

9 tweak a little bit with some -- like you said, air

10 ambulance have their own. They don't need to be on there.

11 You know, maybe we can't get a hospital administrator,

12 which I doubt that we ever will, because that's pretty

13 high chain, who's going to come and sit four hours at a

14 meeting?

15 I think we have a significant list that we have

16 already that was originally set up by Jay and Jolene and

17 just tweak it from there.

18 GUY DANSIE: Sounds good. Does anybody here

19 oppose that or any other thoughts?

20 JIM GUYNN: Well, the only concern that I have

21 is when they made some changes, and to be able to keep

22 according to -- what's his name --

23 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Jason.

24 JIM GUYNN: Jason. According to Jason, they

25 moved me to the paramedic position because they wanted to

Page 80

1 keep the representation from down there and verify that I

2 am still a certified paramedic, but it says paramedic

3 licensed agency, and we're not a licensed agency. And

4 before I represented QR. Now Chief Wilden is there. You

5 know, I just want to make sure that that's still in, you

6 know, a valid appointment because I don't represent a

7 licensed agency.

8 GUY DANSIE: Paramedic.

9 JIM GUYNN: They said you know what, that's not

10 a problem as long as you are still a paramedic, it doesn't

11 matter. So if that's the case, that's fine. If not, I

12 certainly don't want to be excluded from this group just

13 because someone else put someone else.

14 GUY DANSIE: No, that's what I'm saying. We

15 needed to be flexible with these positions. We had a

16 vision of different types of representation. And as we

17 went through the appointment process, some things shook

18 out, you know, well and other things maybe, you know, we

19 tweaked a little bit to match up with some of the

20 applications.

21 We had -- we had applications in some areas and

22 under applications -- or not any applications with some of

23 the positions originally we selected. So we adjusted

24 those positions.

25 I think that's what we need to do again is maybe



Pages 81 to 84

Page 81

1 look at selective ones. I know Jason made an attempt to

2 do that and tried to have us follow in line with the

3 subcommittees and that was something that was not very

4 popular to have this group be the same as a subcommittee.

5 RANDY WILDEN: Shocking.

6 GUY DANSIE: So that's -- I just want to

7 bring -- open it up to any, you know, let you guys decide

8 what's best for this group.

9 I -- I agree with you, though, Jim, I think, you

10 know, we need to change the slot you are in and change the

11 name of that slot. That's not a problem.

12 JIM GUYNN: Or just leave it to paramedic, just

13 whatever.

14 GUY DANSIE: Just take the licensed agency part

15 off.

16 JEAN LUNDQUIST: How about the private EMS

17 agency rep? Is there someone --

18 GUY DANSIE: That would be Lauara.


20 GUY DANSIE: In fact, we could go through the

21 positions and who's on there.

22 The fire chiefs is Jess. EMS Directors

23 Association is an attempt to capture the rural EMS

24 agencies to balance the fire. We realize that most of the

25 large urban agencies are fire based.

Page 82

1 Rural agencies are not fire based. So we went

2 ahead -- at that time Don has worked to set up a rural EMS

3 Directors Association for non-fire based agencies. And I

4 don't know if he's ever been able to fully organize that

5 group to the extent that they thought they would, but

6 that's what we had him slated as.

7 So if that's okay, we'll keep a rural EMS

8 director.

9 JAY DEE DOWNS: That's cool.

10 GUY DANSIE: Do you want to have it be under the

11 association or just the rule, EMS director? Do we need to

12 change it or --

13 JIM GUYNN: Is Don a doctor then? Marrelli?

14 DEAN YORK: No, he runs Price's.

15 GUY DANSIE: No. He's Price's EMS director.

16 JEAN LUNDQUIST: EMS --

17 JIM GUYNN: So anymore EMS coordinator, not a

18 director. A director is a medical director, right?

19 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, well, we have a medical

20 director. You can see Mark Bair was right below that.

21 And he actually applied and wanted to be part of this

22 group, but he just hasn't been able to attend.

23 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah, that's -- that's my

24 thing. Is if they haven't been here for X amount of time.

25 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, and that was probably the

Page 83

1 other thing is we just clean out the --

2 JAY DEE DOWNS: That was a non-fire based EMS

3 agency, right, whatever their title is? The most we could

4 come up with was director but maybe supervisor or manager.

5 Maybe we can do that.

6 GUY DANSIE: Manager.

7 JAY DEE DOWNS: EMS manager.

8 JIM GUYNN: Isn't it the Bureau's title, EMS

9 coordinator?

10 LAUARA SNYDER: Can I clarify that a little bit?

11 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, go ahead Lauara.

12 LAUARA SNYDER: On the EMS Director's

13 Association Don was actually voted in as president. And

14 we have been trying to organize, trying some ebb and flow,

15 but that's why that's in there. Hopefully that will be a

16 significant force for EMS.


18 LAUARA SNYDER: So I think EMS Director's

19 Association, I mean they could be rural fire, rural

20 private, rural county, whatever, but it was a good cross

21 section. So I think if we leave it as EMS Directors

22 Association I think that's appropriate because that is

23 truly what it is.

24 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, and I agree. That's why we

25 put it in there to begin with. But I think on my list we

Page 84

1 didn't have the title rural -- did I say that properly?

2 Rural. The attempt was to balance the urban viewpoint

3 with the rural viewpoint from a leadership standpoint. So

4 should we title that --

5 LAUARA SNYDER: I understand.

6 GUY DANSIE: -- Rural EMS Director's

7 Association?

8 LAUARA SNYDER: Well, I don't know if that is

9 correct, though, because then you might have to have

10 another association because this EMS Director's

11 Association, even the large private were part of that when

12 it very first started probably 15 years ago or even more,

13 maybe 20 years ago.


15 LAUARA SNYDER: So -- and they are certainly

16 welcome to be a part of it. I think that Don has sent

17 them an invitation to all of them. So I -- I don't -- I

18 know that we tried to do it and it's always been a

19 proponent of rural, but I think EMS Director's Association

20 really doesn't encompass everybody. Even though the

21 majority of them are rural that come to this.

22 GUY DANSIE: Okay. So we'll just leave it as

23 is. Is that what you are proposing?

24 JAY DEE DOWNS: I think the thing was, with the

25 question was, was not getting it confused with the medical



Pages 85 to 88

Page 85

1 director; is that correct?

2 JIM GUYNN: Right.

3 JEFF GRUNOW: What if we put down Rural EMS

4 Manager? And that takes the word director out and then it

5 finally tells you what you are looking for and it doesn't

6 specifically put an organization. Because --

7 GUY DANSIE: Let's see, rural area.

8 JEFF GRUNOW: It gets what you want. Because

9 let's say a whole bunch of EMS directors ended up -- let's

10 say they had a coup and then you had all these urban

11 people, you didn't get what you want.

12 GUY DANSIE: Yeah. True. True. And I think

13 this list when we first set it up, it was based on

14 associations, is primarily what we were looking at. And I

15 don't know if we want to stay with that entirely or if we

16 want to -- like the sub-committees do have different,

17 like, licensed personnel, or certified personnel at a

18 certification level, like a basic, you know, an EMT or an

19 AEMT or a paramedic, but I don't know if that's what this

20 group wants or if we want to keep associations, titles in

21 there or would we rather have it like your qualifications

22 according to skill set or --

23 JIM GUYNN: I can fix this paramedic license

24 agency issue real easy. I'm the training officer for

25 Washington. Dean is a paramedic for a licensed agency.

Page 86

1 We could just swap those two names and then no one could

2 ever have a complaint with what we are representing. Do

3 you want to do that?

4 GUY DANSIE: That works. That works.

5 JAY DEE DOWNS: Back to the question up here

6 with the director's association.

7 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.

8 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Is the official title of that

9 group the EMS Director's Association? Is that the title

10 of the group?

11 LAUARA SNYDER: It is.

12 JEAN LUNDQUIST: There you go.

13 GUY DANSIE: We'll just leave it as that.

14 JEAN LUNDQUIST: There you go. I mean that's

15 the title of the group. That's the representative.

16 GUY DANSIE: Okay. So as we move down that

17 list, EMS Medical Director, Mark Bair.

18 JEAN LUNDQUIST: We need a new one.

19 GUY DANSIE: Should we solicit a new medical

20 director?

21 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I think so.

22 GUY DANSIE: Leave that category in.

23 LAUARA SNYDER: I think we need that category.

24 There's a lot of things in rural that we need a medical

25 director input, but if he's not able to come, I agree with

Page 87

1 Teresa, we need to get new one, solicit for a new one.

2 JIM GUYNN: I wonder if Dr. Taillac would do

3 that?

4 GUY DANSIE: Well, Taillac has been involved

5 with this group, but he's -- well, I guess he could say --

6 he does represent West Valley. I didn't know if we wanted

7 a local EMS medical director or -- he's also like a State

8 perspective.

9 JIM GUYNN: Right.

10 GUY DANSIE: So he's kind of served in that

11 role, but I didn't -- we don't want to exclude somebody

12 else if somebody else wanted to apply. He's come just as

13 a staff member, not necessarily representing an outside

14 group.

15 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I say you send out a memo and

16 ask.

17 LAUARA SNYDER: Yeah, I was going to say maybe

18 we should send it out to medical directors that are

19 looking --

20 GUY DANSIE: Solicit another.

21 LAUARA SNYDER: See if he'll come.

22 GUY DANSIE: I'll do that. Peter has a list for

23 medical directors and we'll solicit new applicants to be

24 part of this group.

25 JAY DEE DOWNS: You might want to ask Mark

Page 88

1 before you do that and say, hey, we noticed you haven't

2 been able to come. Are you still interested in being on

3 it.

4 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, I'll follow up with Mark Bair

5 and just as a courtesy just say, hey, we know you've been

6 busy, but --

7 JESS CAMPBELL: Well, I think you could say

8 we're coming up on our two-year mark as a task force.

9 JEAN LUNDQUIST: You came once.

10 JESS CAMPBELL: We would like to redo our list.

11 Are you still interested?


13 JESS CAMPBELL: I don't think you have to say

14 anything about whether or not he's been present or not,

15 just we're coming up on our two-year mark and we'd like to

16 renew.

17 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, I'll be tactful with him. I

18 consider him a friend. I know him quite well. So I'm not

19 going to -- and I know he's actually contributed over the

20 years in many different capacities to the Bureau.

21 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Which is why he's so busy.


23 JESS CAMPBELL: Yeah. I think the one I'm

24 remembering left is Cheyenne.

25 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Was that you, Teresa?



Pages 89 to 92

Page 89

1 SUZANNE BARTON: She was replaced by Teresa.

2 TERESA BRUNT: I will never in my life try to be

3 as cool as her but she's -- yeah, I try to represent.

4 JESS CAMPBELL: Well, as cool as you are,

5 Teresa, I'm sorry I've never met her.

6 TERESA BRUNT: That Cheyenne, she's good. Half

7 the time I feel like I'm learning more than I'm

8 contributing, but I do enjoy being part of the group.

9 GUY DANSIE: Okay. The next category for those

10 on the phone was law enforcement. Originally we -- we've

11 had that on our EMS Committee and some of the

12 sub-committees we've had law enforcement folks. I know

13 Tom Hodgson -- Hodson -- am I saying his name right?

14 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Uh-huh.

15 GUY DANSIE: He was a law enforcement person;

16 although, he was representing the Utah Association of EMTs

17 officially.

18 JAY DEE DOWNS: Wasn't Kevin law enforcement

19 too?

20 GUY DANSIE: Kevin, I think is. Yeah. I'm not

21 sure if he's like -- is Kevin POST certified?

22 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Kevin Rose?

23 GUY DANSIE: Is he a deputy?

24 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah, he's a deputy in Davis

25 County, isn't he?

Page 90

1 GUY DANSIE: Yeah. And I know he's given us

2 much of our support on, like, tactical paramedic issues,

3 things like that. Do we want to -- Kevin also served in a

4 different capacity, though. I don't know, do we want to

5 seek law enforcement?

6 JAY DEE DOWNS: There are agencies out there

7 that are law enforcement that cross.

8 GUY DANSIE: Based, yeah. Some of the sheriff's

9 departments have those. And it looks like Sevier County,

10 I believe. Iron did.

11 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Can you guys hear, Jess? He's

12 mumbling, but...

13 GUY DANSIE: What did you say, Jess?

14 JESS CAMPBELL: I said no law enforcement.

15 GUY DANSIE: No law enforcement?

16 JEAN LUNDQUIST: In the stuff we go over is

17 there anything applicable to them?

18 GUY DANSIE: Mostly paramedic tactics, but

19 Kevin -- Kevin is involved in that. He's kind of filling

20 two roles.

21 JESS CAMPBELL: So eliminate him.

22 GUY DANSIE: So let's -- should we just scratch

23 that category?

24 How about the private -- the next one is private

25 EMS agencies. Should we scratch that one, Lauara?

Page 91

1 LAUARA SNYDER: I was expecting that.

2 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.

3 JIM GUYNN: You know, I wonder if Mike Moffitt

4 would maybe help us out with that.

5 GUY DANSIE: Should we see if we can get Gold

6 Cross to pony up?

7 LAUARA SNYDER: So long as I can exchange and be

8 on the EMS Committee, I would trade.

9 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I would go for that.

10 GUY DANSIE: Like a chess game, huh?

11 SUZANNE BARTON: You have to be appointed.

12 JESS CAMPBELL: Make a motion.

13 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I second it.

14 JAY DEE DOWNS: I'm not the one.

15 GUY DANSIE: In all fairness to Gold Cross and

16 Wendover and any other privates, we have -- we picked

17 Lauara for this group because we knew Mike was on the

18 committee and we have Chris Dellamar who's their

19 operational manager and on the operation subcommittee.

20 And I think Jack Mearsman is on there now. So they are

21 represented well. And, you know, that's why Lauara was

22 the one we gave that position to originally.

23 Are there any other privates? I'm trying to

24 think, the hospital based are kind of private. Yeah, and

25 I don't know.

Page 92

1 LAUARA SNYDER: MountainWest.

2 GUY DANSIE: MountainWest, Uintah Basin,

3 Gunnison. I'm trying to think of some other. Gunnison is

4 community owned. Kanab.

5 JEAN LUNDQUIST: San -- no Sanpete --

6 GUY DANSIE: Well, Gunnison is actually run by

7 their hospital, but it's community based. They don't

8 represent a government per se but it's a hospital.

9 There's a few of the hospital based, Mountain West. I'm

10 just -- Uintah.

11 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Uintah is too?

12 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, Uintah Basin.

13 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Sevier, are they?

14 GUY DANSIE: No. No, Sevier is under the

15 Sheriff's Department. So anyways I guess, should we just

16 keep that as is?

17 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah.

18 JESS CAMPBELL: Well, I think it's been a good

19 indicator of who feels they have a vested interest. I

20 mean, representative just on the list of names with the

21 exception of Cheyenne replaced by Teresa. On the list

22 that's in front of us, I would -- I know Tom early on was

23 engaged, but I don't think he's been -- but I'm not saying

24 we need to strike the UAEMT, but maybe we need to see if

25 somebody else within that group would like to take Tom's



Pages 93 to 96

Page 93

1 place. But other than that, I would say let's just stick

2 with the list of both of them because they come to events,

3 I mean, it can always be changed again in the future, but

4 I don't think it represents well when you have half of

5 your list with vacancies.

6 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.

7 JESS CAMPBELL: And not really ever having

8 participated in. And I don't think they will.

9 GUY DANSIE: No, and I don't think so either.

10 So like hospital administrator, are we okay to strike

11 that?


13 JEFF GRUNOW: Yeah.

14 GUY DANSIE: Let's strike that. Air Ambulance

15 Committee, I'm going to strike that, if that's okay.

16 The League of Cities and Towns, that was purely

17 a political thing. Strike that. Same with public

18 officials. Political subdivision managers, Associated

19 Mechanics, we tried to get the political viewpoint.

20 JESS CAMPBELL: Well, we even early on, that was

21 one of the first rules I remember and I don't remember

22 which iteration of this group it was, but that was one of

23 the first rules that we worked on was -- I mean, there was

24 rule in place that said that we would report to our

25 political subdivisions and we said, all right, so what

Page 94

1 does that mean? Well, that means we should be having

2 somebody go to county commissioner meetings and report

3 as -- that's just not a reality. And the reality was they

4 didn't care, you know, as long as they knew the business

5 was getting taken care of. And so yeah, I -- I think

6 eliminating them.

7 GUY DANSIE: Okay.

8 JAY DEE DOWNS: Well, doesn't the law also

9 address that too where you have to -- was it public

10 access -- what is it called where you have to get with

11 your public entities now?

12 GUY DANSIE: Cost quality access goals. Yeah,

13 as part of your licensing that was a new legislative bill

14 that is required that now you -- when you -- and we

15 decided that doing it through the licensing process, you

16 would need to submit some cost quality and access goals.

17 We wrote a little bit of rule and put it in that R426-5 to

18 meet our mandate from the legislature to do some kind of

19 role, but the actual development of the template or some

20 kind of -- the meat and potatoes part of that rule, we

21 still haven't really figured it all out yet. And our

22 operations subcommittee was going to work on that and try

23 to develop something that's user friendly for the

24 providers so that when they relicense they could, you

25 know, submit something to us to meet that requirement.

Page 95

1 JESS CAMPBELL: Well, there's a plan in place

2 for hopefully working, continually working on improvement.

3 JAY DEE DOWNS: Absolutely.

4 GUY DANSIE: Right. Right. Yeah. And we don't

5 want to make it too burdensome on the agencies, but it is

6 a requirement now, so...

7 JAY DEE DOWNS: Is there anybody else that we

8 maybe forgot? We got the educators. We've got the --

9 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, Jeff -- yeah, course

10 coordinator.

11 JAY DEE DOWNS: Course coordinators. Is there

12 anybody else that -- there is one role that we don't have

13 on here yet, unless you don't want me to but --

14 GUY DANSIE: What?

15 JAY DEE DOWNS: A member from the EMS Committee.

16 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, and that was part of the one

17 that was set up.

18 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah, we had that --

19 GUY DANSIE: It was actually -- that was an

20 agreement Paul had with the EMS Committee, is that we have

21 Jay -- and we felt that Jay should conduct the meetings.

22 That's why he's conducted.


24 GUY DANSIE: Because he represents the

25 committee.

Page 96

1 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So where does Jason fit in?

2 GUY DANSIE: Jason -- well, my understanding was

3 that we wanted an alternate if something happened with

4 Jay. Jay was busy. I know Jay was feeling pressure on

5 his real job and had Jason be like an alternate.

6 JESS CAMPBELL: Well, and that was also some

7 feedback to I think one of the early reports that we made

8 to the EMS Subcommittee, there was some lashing back, you

9 know, lashing out, you know, you don't work for us, we

10 don't work for you, you work for us, kind of statements

11 were getting tossed about. And I think -- I think it was

12 actually Jay that suggested that, you know, hey, if you

13 think that this is a simple task that we're embarked on

14 feel free to show up at any one of them --

15 JAY DEE DOWNS: Absolutely.

16 JESS CAMPBELL: -- and witness what's going on.

17 Well -- and Jason accepted that, but somehow that's

18 morphed into he's a voting member.

19 JEAN LUNDQUIST: That's what I can't figure out.

20 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, I think he asserted a little

21 power or something.

22 JEAN LUNDQUIST: When we first introduced him, I

23 thought he was going to be an observer and then he started

24 voting. Because that didn't -- I think we just need to

25 decide which way it's going to be.



Pages 97 to 100

Page 97

1 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, maybe we have one vote for

2 the EMS rep.

3 JESS CAMPBELL: I think the EMS Committee needs

4 to be on there. And if we're headed down the path we're

5 on, I think we need to have an odd number so we can have a

6 tie breaking capability, and that would give us, again,

7 assuming that we can start the UAEMT rep in that. Then

8 the EMS Committee would give us 13.

9 JAY DEE DOWNS: I'd kind of like the vice chair

10 of the EMS Committee to be on this committee because it

11 kind of reports back to the EMS Committee.

12 JIM GUYNN: If you are to strike the UAEMT rep

13 if Sergeant Hodson is still interested in being part of

14 the group, then perhaps we can just put him right into the

15 law enforcement position and leave that there.

16 JESS CAMPBELL: Either way.

17 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah, either way.

18 LAUARA SNYDER: I have -- I just noticed on the

19 list that we've made up here, there's 20 people, and then

20 you've taken out five positions, that leaves 16, and

21 that's if we only have one EMS Committee member, which I

22 heard you guys talking and I think you are right on track.

23 We need one, but I don't think we need two voting people

24 from the EMS Committee.

25 So that would leave us with 15 people and that

Page 98

1 may be sufficient. The new subcommittees each have 16

2 people on them. So, you know, if you really wanted to go

3 for an even number and have 16, you know, and maybe we

4 could look at another position or include back the sheriff

5 group but, you know, we're at that number now, 15. Is

6 that right?

7 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I only have 13.

8 JESS CAMPBELL: We have 13.

9 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.

10 JIM GUYNN: Well, with Jay. Jay is not here.

11 So that will make 14.

12 GUY DANSIE: 14.

13 LAUARA SNYDER: Well, I think with Jay on

14 there -- yeah, with Jay on there that's -- is that 16?

15 JIM GUYNN: 14.

16 LAUARA SNYDER: No, that's 15.

17 JIM GUYNN: There's only 13 names on the list.

18 So if you add Jay, that's 14.

19 JEAN LUNDQUIST: 11, 12, 13 with Jay is what I

20 have.

21 GUY DANSIE: I'm not on the list either because

22 I'm not -- I'm here to be advised.

23 JEAN LUNDQUIST: You're a voting member?

24 GUY DANSIE: Actually, I haven't voted. I -- as

25 a matter of personal opinion, I feel like I'm here being

Page 99

1 advised by you.

2 JESS CAMPBELL: Yeah.

3 GUY DANSIE: I know I've conducted a little bit,

4 you know, acting a little with Jay, but I honestly haven't

5 voted. I don't consider myself a voting member.

6 JESS CAMPBELL: Advisory.

7 GUY DANSIE: I suggest, but I don't vote.

8 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Are we going to leave Tom, the

9 UAEMT on? Have we decided about that?

10 GUY DANSIE: Should we talk to Tom or --

11 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Ask him if he still wants to be

12 involved?

13 GUY DANSIE: It's a big association. I know

14 they have a lot of --

15 JESS CAMPBELL: So if it isn't Tom who else?

16 GUY DANSIE: We could ask the president --

17 LAUARA SNYDER: I think the UAEMT Association

18 should be represented because they do represent -- there's

19 a lot of people in that organization. And they may

20 have -- you know, they've got a dog in the fight so to

21 speak when you talk about the rate increases for

22 certifications and some of those processes. I would think

23 they would probably want to have representation. But I

24 think we worked pretty well with the number that we've

25 had, which is -- you know, if you say it's 14. I don't

Page 100

1 know that we just need to add numbers to try and make a

2 number, you know, make it 15 like the subcommittees. I

3 think if this was what we have and we've been working well

4 with it, positions that people are filling, I think we are

5 looking pretty good just like this.

6 JESS CAMPBELL: I don't think --

7 LAUARA SNYDER: But I think that Jay's done a

8 great job, and I hope he stays as our representative from

9 the EMS Committee, but I think we only need one.

10 JESS CAMPBELL: Yeah, I don't think bigger is

11 necessarily better.

12 GUY DANSIE: Well, it seems like that magic

13 number is usually in the mid-teens somewhere for a group.

14 I think you get diversity and yet it's not so big that

15 it's out of control.

16 JAY DEE DOWNS: Now, one of the -- I guess

17 originally what we tried to do was look at everybody that

18 was to be affected by the rules, or all the groups to be

19 affected by the rules and try to get a representative from

20 them. And it's shaked out pretty well. I can't think of

21 any other groups out there that would be affected by these

22 rules. I mean, I think we pretty well captured them.

23 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, I think so too. I think

24 UAEMT may be one we could look at their elected

25 leadership. I think Tom's part of that but I don't know



Pages 101 to 104

Page 101

1 who the president -- don't they have an election every

2 year and have --

3 JAY DEE DOWNS: One thing is we've got to be

4 careful when we look at membership to make sure we still

5 keep it diversified in getting areas of the state. And

6 that was the other thing that we looked at, too, is to

7 make sure that we have -- if you fill the role of this,

8 but you came from Washington County so you came from the

9 southern portion of the state.

10 GUY DANSIE: Yeah. There's that urban/rural

11 balance we've tried to strike.

12 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah. I've filled the role of

13 the EMS Committee coming from the northern part of the

14 State. See what I'm saying? So maybe not with the --

15 DEAN YORK: Darren Park represent more union

16 based on the peer review.


18 DEAN YORK: Would a union representative be --

19 have an invested interest?

20 JAY DEE DOWNS: That's an interesting point.

21 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, that's something you guys --

22 maybe get like an employee association type thing. See,

23 and I -- that's actually why UAEMT came in was we felt

24 that it represented the EMTs whereas we had a paramedic

25 agency to represent maybe the higher certification level.

Page 102

1 UAEMT represented maybe the lower certification level.

2 Tami, did you have --

3 TAMI GOODIN: What is --

4 LAUARA SNYDER: I think we want to remember,

5 too, is all these organizations, just like the Air

6 Ambulance Committee, they have their groups, their work

7 groups and they come up with whatever they want. They

8 bring it to our task force --

9 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.

10 LAUARA SNYDER: -- and we usually support what

11 they decide. So I think that really we do get a big -- we

12 do represent everybody, even if not everybody has a seat

13 at the table, just like the Air Ambulance Committee, they

14 have even sections in the rules that affect them and yet

15 they don't have a spot on here.

16 GUY DANSIE: Right. And we've -- we're

17 eliminating that off of this.

18 JAY DEE DOWNS: Guy, is this the list we put

19 together or is this the list Jason went through and

20 pigeonholed it?

21 GUY DANSIE: No, this is the original --

22 JAY DEE DOWNS: This is the list you and I

23 worked on?

24 GUY DANSIE: This is the one you and I, Jolene

25 sat down -- this is the one we used to send out

Page 103

1 applications from.

2 JIM GUYNN: Yes. No, because I view it like QR

3 rep.

4 GUY DANSIE: But we tweaked that.

5 JIM GUYNN: Right.

6 GUY DANSIE: Because of the rural nature, we

7 wanted someone from a rural place and --

8 JAY DEE DOWNS: But literally --

9 GUY DANSIE: -- you fit the bill better than

10 others, so we just tweaked the categories. And I think we

11 did the same for Randy.

12 JAY DEE DOWNS: Well, you know, this isn't

13 really set in stone either in rule --

14 GUY DANSIE: We tweaked it so he would be on it.

15 JAY DEE DOWNS: -- but if he had, like, later on

16 we have somebody we feel like we could put it, we'll just

17 change the rule and add it to it, right?

18 GUY DANSIE: Right. And we did this as a policy

19 just starting out to get it going.

20 JAY DEE DOWNS: I think what we got here now is

21 eliminating some of the suggestions that Jess has made and

22 some of these other ones. I think we just go through

23 there now and keep them like that and go from there. I

24 don't think we need to put very much more --

25 GUY DANSIE: More thought into it.

Page 104

1 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah. I think we are there, are

2 we not?

3 TAMI GOODIN: Does Kevin represent dispatch

4 still?

5 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, we had him down as an

6 interoperability -- dispatch interoperability rep. We

7 could --

8 JIM GUYNN: Regina --

9 JESS CAMPBELL: Is there a difference?

10 GUY DANSIE: We were thinking -- originally I

11 know this is what we were thinking. An association that

12 represented something rural and urban. Regina was a rural

13 dispatch. Kevin was an urban dispatch. That's kind of

14 what we were trying to strike a balance between.

15 JAY DEE DOWNS: I remember that now.


17 TAMI GOODIN: I wanted to make sure

18 dispatch was --

19 GUY DANSIE: We had two dispatch spots and we

20 wanted urban and rural. So that's how it was divided.

21 JESS CAMPBELL: For the sake of clarity --

22 LAUARA SNYDER: I think this is a good

23 representation that we have on this. And I think all the

24 positions are appropriate. And the ones who haven't shown

25 up, I think that kind of just shows, you know, maybe they



Pages 105 to 108

Page 105

1 are not as interested to be at the table. But again, that

2 doesn't mean they can't bring information just like, you

3 know, from their work groups like the air ambulance people

4 do.

5 GUY DANSIE: True. How about this. We'll --

6 can I use this list I have and eliminate the two or three

7 we did, like the League of Cities and Towns and the Air

8 Ambulance and those that are not -- never were filled,

9 we'll eliminate those. The ones like for Mark Bair and

10 Tom Hodson, let's talk to -- I'll talk to those two and

11 maybe get a rep that represents that category. You know,

12 if they are unable to attend maybe we can get another rep

13 from that category.

14 LAUARA SNYDER: I think that's good. In this

15 instance it doesn't have a spot to comment as a rule; is

16 that correct, because this is a task force that's under

17 your department?

18 GUY DANSIE: Right. It's under the department,

19 but here's the part why we bring it to you today, is not

20 only do we want to clean up our policy that we developed

21 originally and renew that if we need to, but we need to --

22 and this is your call but Paul promised you guys if you

23 wanted to put it into rule, we could. And I came here

24 today thinking that we would probably draft this into

25 rule. And so we could develop this list and we can

Page 106

1 translate it into rule if, you know, to strike them.

2 That's -- that's what Paul's vision was.

3 JESS CAMPBELL: So does the APCO organization

4 primarily represent rural dispatch centers?

5 GUY DANSIE: I --

6 JESS CAMPBELL: -- or are they --

7 JIM GUYNN: In this circumstance it is. But

8 APCO, I mean, isn't that the --

9 GUY DANSIE: That's just everybody.

10 JESS CAMPBELL: Kind of a statewide or even a

11 national.

12 JIM GUYNN: Yeah, didn't that --

13 JAY DEE DOWNS: Were you looking to label it

14 rural dispatch?

15 JESS CAMPBELL: Yeah, I was thinking label it

16 rural and urban.

17 JAY DEE DOWNS: That would be more --

18 GUY DANSIE: Based on --

19 JAY DEE DOWNS: More definitive or more

20 descriptive.

21 TERESA BRUNT: Will I get to stay in?

22 GUY DANSIE: Everybody gets to stay in who wants

23 to. We value you.

24 JESS CAMPBELL: You are in for life.

25 TERESA BRUNT: Oh, thank you.

Page 107

1 JESS CAMPBELL: You are in for life. You can

2 never be released.

3 TERESA BRUNT: Thank you.

4 JESS CAMPBELL: I make that motion.

5 TERESA BRUNT: All the contribution I give.

6 DEAN YORK: The other word for that is

7 purgatory.

8 JESS CAMPBELL: It's still the same thing. It's

9 hell.

10 GUY DANSIE: And then -- and I apologize again

11 for those of you on the phone. We'll send out what we had

12 as a policy, but basically let me read some of that. We

13 would have -- let me just go down to the appointment

14 process. We had two, three and four-year terms. And I

15 think originally we'd set out to do that.

16 JAY DEE DOWNS: I think we threw it out there

17 and we thought we'd organize --

18 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, it was loose. We thought if

19 people didn't want to be here forever, they could do one

20 or the other. I honestly don't care, as long as we have

21 consistency, and maybe there's a point where people are

22 getting sick of it and they want to drop off. That's

23 understandable.

24 JEFF GRUNOW: What I would suggest is you take

25 this and you go to one EMS administrative officer and you

Page 108

1 draw at random two year, three year, four year and then

2 that way there's no stacking of the deck.

3 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.

4 JEFF GRUNOW: And so you go to the next one, one

5 EMS administrative officer, draw the next one out. Maybe

6 that's three years.

7 GUY DANSIE: So just totally do it by random.

8 JEFF GRUNOW: That's what I would do. That

9 would be clean.

10 GUY DANSIE: Does that sound fair to everybody?

11 And I guess my other thing is if people want out after a

12 year or two, then I would certainly entertain the idea

13 allow them that choice to opt out.

14 JAY DEE DOWNS: I would do the EMS Committee by

15 appointment by the EMS Committee and that way no -- you

16 see what I'm saying?


18 JAY DEE DOWNS: Just go to your year and sit on

19 that -- I guess you could. I guess you could because you

20 could stay two years with the EMS Committee guy and then

21 turn around and the EMS Committee may take them back. But

22 I know the original intention was the vice-chair would be

23 on this committee.


25 JESS CAMPBELL: Is that you?



Pages 109 to 112

Page 109

1 GUY DANSIE: That's Jay.

2 JAY DEE DOWNS: Another year till December.

3 Yeah.

4 JIM GUYNN: Then maybe the rest of us can just

5 volunteer for what we want to be.

6 GUY DANSIE: Well, that's what I was wondering

7 if you wanted --

8 JIM GUYNN: I'll do it for three.

9 GUY DANSIE: As long as everybody -- you know,

10 there wasn't conflict. If everybody wanted to go three

11 and then at the end of the three, we lose everybody,

12 that's not going to work either.

13 JEFF GRUNOW: No, I'll take two. My wife wants

14 to retire.

15 GUY DANSIE: See, and that's why I was wondering

16 originally is if maybe we ought to do is look at personal

17 needs and then if people kind of fell into different time

18 links that's fine.

19 JEFF GRUNOW: That's okay too.

20 GUY DANSIE: Yeah. And I don't see -- I don't

21 know if we wanted to do a reappointment process.

22 JIM GUYNN: Is that train coming, Dean?

23 DEAN YORK: Yeah.

24 JAY DEE DOWNS: You on TRAX?

25 GUY DANSIE: You need to get out of here? I'm

Page 110

1 just talking theoretical stuff now. If we wanted to have2 lengths of terms and then also reappointments or term3 limits.4 JIM GUYNN: Doesn't it already state in there5 that you can't do -- no, that's a different rule. Sorry.6 I thought it said somewhere in there you couldn't do two7 full terms. But that's actually on the peer review.8 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, yeah. And I didn't know if9 you guys wanted to go that route. Because I think they

10 went to a six-year term, didn't they, with no11 reappointments.12 DEAN YORK: Have they filled the positions in13 the peer review?14 GUY DANSIE: No, they are just getting the15 application process set up. And if any of you wanted to16 jump on that, that's cool, if you want to do that.17 But I guess my question is, I feel like I'm18 floundering here with all these ideas, do you want me to19 take a stab at rewriting this task force rule?20 JAY DEE DOWNS: I think so.21 GUY DANSIE: Like, the peer review rule for the22 task force, or does anybody else want to take a stab at23 it?24 DEAN YORK: It looks similar.25 GUY DANSIE: And then we can put the positions

Page 111

1 that we had that we agreed upon today in that.

2 JAY DEE DOWNS: Give us something to go from.

3 If you are asking for a flock shot now, that's what you

4 are getting.

5 GUY DANSIE: I'm getting a flock shot.

6 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah, yeah. Because everybody

7 is just kind of like well, whatever.

8 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, sure. Sounds good.

9 JAY DEE DOWNS: If you put something on paper

10 then we can have something substantial, we come back.

11 GUY DANSIE: The straw man kind of thing.

12 DEAN YORK: This is a great template.

13 GUY DANSIE: Well, yeah. How about I use this

14 as a template and then I'll use the old policies. If

15 there's anything you don't like in the old policies,

16 that's what I'm wondering, if you want to do

17 reappointments, term lengths. Categories I think we've

18 figured out.

19 JAY DEE DOWNS: Let's do a stab and come back

20 and discuss that and say, okay, what's your link?

21 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, I'll draft a piece --

22 JESS CAMPBELL: So the Fire Chief's Association,

23 all of -- so every two years, the second vice president is

24 up for election because the president falls off and the

25 proposal now is that it would go on to be the Western

Page 112

1 State's Fire Chief Representative. Anyway, the fire

2 chief's representative's probably on a two-year so that it

3 coincides with the election cycle. It may be with that

4 individual for multiple two-year -- because essentially

5 when you are elected as second vice president you are in

6 for a minimum of six years, probably eight if you go on to

7 the western part.

8 JAY DEE DOWNS: If you get reelected in or

9 whatever, then just resubmit. That's a good idea.

10 JIM GUYNN: Yeah, there's probably no real

11 reason for a term limit here.

12 JAY DEE DOWNS: I can't imagine --

13 JIM GUYNN: You may run -- you may run out of

14 candidates.

15 JAY DEE DOWNS: Subbers -- I mean, candidates.

16 GUY DANSIE: Well, and I really appreciate

17 having the same group to work through all these different

18 sections. I think it's provided the continuity we needed.

19 JEAN LUNDQUIST: It helps to know.

20 GUY DANSIE: It's so intertwined.

21 JAY DEE DOWNS: But it's hard to educate

22 somebody coming in --

23 GUY DANSIE: It is. And there's a learning

24 curve, and especially going through two Attorney General

25 counsels that we've, that's crazy.



Pages 113 to 116

Page 113

1 LAUARA SNYDER: I have a question.

2 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.

3 LAUARA SNYDER: On the old one, the task force

4 directive, I was able to find that on my computer, it said

5 that 26-8a-105, department powers was to establish a

6 voluntary task force. If we become -- if we put this into

7 rule, will we still remain a task force versus a

8 subcommittee? Because I kind of like the idea of it being

9 a task force and not a subcommittee.

10 JAY DEE DOWNS: You're a task force committee.

11 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, I think the title should be

12 task force. That's what the statute says. And I

13 wouldn't -- the subcommittee reports to the committee.

14 JAY DEE DOWNS: We're not a subcommittee of the

15 EMS Committee. We're not a subcommittee of the Bureau.

16 We are both. That's where the task force comes in.

17 GUY DANSIE: Right. That's how they defined it.

18 Subcommittee is actually underneath the committee.


20 GUY DANSIE: So anything they do --

21 LAUARA SNYDER: That's right.

22 GUY DANSIE: -- needs to be approved by the

23 committee. This is more of a band of rebels in here.

24 Mavericks.

25 LAUARA SNYDER: That's right.

Page 114

1 JAY DEE DOWNS: Back of the bone.

2 GUY DANSIE: I tell everybody I put the people

3 with the strongest opinions in this group so that we

4 wouldn't have to do battle with you on the back side on

5 public comment.

6 JEFF GRUNOW: Brilliant.

7 JEAN LUNDQUIST: May as well hear it here than

8 later.

9 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, that's what I tell people.

10 No, I'd rather have the opinions vetted here and the rule

11 reflecting what people have -- who have strong feelings

12 towards it. That to me is more valuable than having

13 everybody come through and agree to everything and then

14 send the rule out and it's shredded by other people. So I

15 value your opinions. Okay.

16 LAUARA SNYDER: Thank you.

17 GUY DANSIE: Well -- I guess what I need to do,

18 and I'll assign myself to this, is to rewrite that piece

19 that the peer review board has done and just reword it so

20 that it fits the needs of this group. And I'll bring it

21 back and you can each look at your category and see if

22 that sounds right and the policies. Like the appointment

23 process, the term lengths, and we can determine that at

24 our next meeting. Does that sound good? Okay.

25 LAUARA SNYDER: I have a question. One more

Page 115

1 thing, though. And I might have missed this when I had --

2 took my attention away for a minute. But as far as

3 choosing people to be on this task force, that's like in

4 the next -- I mean really biggest question that we would

5 have is who is going to decide who's going to be on that?

6 And I would suggest when you go to write this that maybe

7 there should be a subgroup of our task force that reviews

8 the applications or whatever to see who should go on it.

9 The alternative, I think, is that there's just

10 somebody from the Bureau looks at the names and goes

11 through them or the subcommittee group from the EMS

12 Committee, and I think there's two people on that, that

13 look at all the applications and they decide who would

14 best fit and propose that. But I think that like you said

15 Guy, this is sort of the rebel group that has strong

16 opinions and we know, you know, who and what. So I think

17 there should be a subgroup in our group that looks at the

18 applications.

19 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, or maybe just the group --

20 LAUARA SNYDER: What does everyone else think?

21 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Maybe the group itself.

22 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, that's what I think, just

23 have the whole group do it.

24 JIM GUYNN: You might best fit that description,

25 Lauara.

Page 116

1 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah, I was going to nominate

2 Lauara.

3 LAUARA SNYDER: No, no. It needs to be a group.

4 DEAN YORK: I'm sorry. You're breaking up.

5 What was that? You are breaking up.

6 LAUARA SNYDER: Yeah.

7 JESS CAMPBELL: Swirl.

8 LAUARA SNYDER: Kind of like I ended up with my

9 phone number inactivated, right?

10 JAY DEE DOWNS: We're a small enough group that

11 we could do that.

12 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, I think so too. I don't

13 think we need to have -- honestly, I kind of disagree. I

14 don't think we need to go to a smaller group. I think

15 this group itself could probably decide that.

16 Originally when we set it up, we had -- that's

17 why we had Jay, myself and Jolene. Jolene and I

18 represented the department, and Jay was representing the

19 committee. We thought that would be the fairest way to

20 start this thing up. But now that it has a life of its

21 own, maybe we can have the current members pick the new

22 members. That sounds good.

23 LAUARA SNYDER: I agree. I like that idea to do

24 that instead of having either the sub-EMS Committee or the

25 subcommittee do it.



Pages 117 to 118

Page 117

1 GUY DANSIE: Originally we thought the

2 associations we named would pick their representative. So

3 that's -- that's kind of why we chose like the different

4 associations, is that association would solicit or, you

5 know, nominate somebody in their group.

6 So -- all right. Well, is there any other

7 business? I don't know.

8 JAY DEE DOWNS: Anything else? Anybody have

9 anything else? All right. We stand adjourned.

10 GUY DANSIE: We need to pick a date.

11 (Discussion about next meeting time.)

12 JESS CAMPBELL: All right. Motion to adjourn.

13 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Second.

14 GUY DANSIE: We're done.

15 JESS CAMPBELL: Next meeting?

16 GUY DANSIE: September 30th.

17 (Discussion on meeting date and time.)

18 GUY DANSIE: September 23rd at 1 o'clock. We

19 had a little staff conflict today, so I apologize.

20 JAY DEE DOWNS: Worked out nice for me.


22 JAY DEE DOWNS: Okay. We stand adjourned.

23 Thanks everybody.

24 (Meeting was adjourned at 3:45 p.m.)

25

Page 118

C E R T I F I C A T E

STATE OF UTAH )

)

COUNTY OF UTAH )

This is to certify that the foregoing proceedings were

taken before me, Susan S. Sprouse, a Certified Shorthand

Reporter in and for the State of Utah, residing in Salt

Lake County, Utah;

That the proceedings were reported by me in stenotype, and

thereafter caused by me to be transcribed into printed

form, and that a true and correct transcription of said

testimony so taken and transcribed is set forth in the

foregoing pages, inclusive.

DATED this 8th day of SEPTEMBER, 2015.

__________________________

SUSAN S. SPROUSE, RPR, CSR

LICENSE NO. 5965543-7801

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