PROCES=VERBAUX MINUTES

DE LA OF THE

TROISIEME COMMISSION THIRD COMMITTEE(ARMEMENTS, ARME ECONOMIQUE) (ARMAMENTS. ECONOMIC WEAPON)

-—27$) —

LISTE DES MEMBRES LIST OF THE MEMBERS

DE LA OF THE

TROISIEME COMMISSION THIRD COMMITTEE

President: Chairman:

Son Excellence M. HJALMAR BRANTING (Suede). His Excellency M. HJALMAR BRANTING (Sweden).

Vice-President: Vice-Chairman:

Son Excellence le Docteur ARISTIDES DE AGUERO His Excellency Dr. ARISTIDES DE AGUERO VY BETHANCOURT (Cuba). B1ETHANCOURT (Cuba).

Membres : . Members:

Afrique du Sud, Le tres honorable Lord ROBERT Albania, M. MICHEL HII MOSI.CECIL,, K. C., M. P.

Albanie, M. MICHEL HIL MosI. Argentine.Argentine. Australia, Captain STANLEY MELBOURNE BRUCE,

Australie, Le Capitaine STANLEY MVELBOURNE M.C.BRUCE, M.C. Mr. PERCY HUNTER (Substitute).

M. PERCY HUNTER (suppleant). Austria, His Excellency M. EMERIC PFLiGL.Autriche, Son Excellence M. EMERIC PFiiGL. Belgium,, M. P. PoULLET.Belgique, M. P. POULLET. Bolivia, Doctor DEMETRIO CANELAS.Bolivie, Le Docteur DEMETRIO CANELAS. Brazil, His Excellency M. CININNATO DA' SILVABresil, Son Excellence M. CINCINATO DA SILVA BRAGA.

BRAGA. British Empire, The Right Hon. H. A. L.Bulgarie, Son Excellence M. ALEXANDRE STAM- FISHER, M.P.

BOLIISKY. Bulgaria, His Excellency M. ALEXANDRE SSTAM-M. POMENOW (suppliant). BOLIISKY.

Canada, L'honorable Sir GEORGE H. PRILEY, - M. POMENOW (Substitute).K..C.M.G. Canada, The Hon. Sir GEORGE H. PERiLEY

Chili, Son Excellence M. MANUEL RIVAS- K.C.M.G.VICUNA.- MVICNA. ALVAe(suppleant) Chile, His Excellency M. MANUEL RIVAS-

M. ALVAREZ (suppleant). VICUNAChine, Son Excellence le D' WANG CHUNG-HUI.VAREZ (Substitute).Colombie, Son Excellence le D' FRANCISCO - M ALVAREZ (Substitute).

JoSPT URRUTIA. China, His Excellency Dr. WANG CHUNG-HUI.Cos URta-Rica, Son Excellence M. MANU DE Colombia, His Excellency Dr. FRANCISCO Josi

Costa-Rica, Son Excellence M. MANUEL DE .~~~PEU~~~RALTA. URRUTIA.

PERAI;'A. r Costa Rica, His Excellency M. MANUEL DECuba, Son Excellence le D' ARISTIDES DE PRA

PERALTA.AGUERO Y BETTIANCOURT. LDAGUERO Y BETeur,1 ANCOURT. MOLTESEN. Cuba, His Excellency Dr. ARISTIDES DE AGUERO

Danemark Le DocteurLAtoiisr MoLTESEN.M CbA.,Empire Britannique, Le tres honorable H.A.L. Y BC THANCo URT.

~~FISHER,) ~ M.P.~ . Czecho-Slovakia, Dr. ROBERT FLIEDER.

Esbagne, Son Excellence M. EMILIO DE PALA- Denmark Dr. LAiST MOLTESEN.^^^^^^^•^ NI.P. ^T T- Denm.a.rte, Dr. LAuST .VMOLTESEN.Esagne, Son exe ..I DE Finland, His. Excellency M. RAFAEL WALDEMAR

eios. ... RICH.-Son-- Excellence ie contre-amiral ER

'Marquis MAGA (sUppleant).- France, His Excellency M. REN; VIVIANI.(M:. RtYNALD (Substitute).

Finlande, Son Excellence M. RAFAEL.WALDEMAR. RYND (Sbtt- ERIICH.~ -Greece, His Excellency M. DEMETRE PANAS.

Fran-e, Son- Excellence M. RENA- VIVIANI. - Colonel HIPPOCRATE PAPAVASSILION et

- M. REYNALD (suppleant). M. JAN BouBOULIS (Experts).

Grece, Son Excellence M. DEMATRE PANAS. Guatemala.- Le Colonel HIPPOCRATE PAPAVASSILION. H

M. JEAN BOUBOr LIS. Honduras.(conseillers techniques). India, His Highness Maharajad-hiraj MLRZA

Guatemala. MAHARAO SHRI KHENGARJI SAWTAI, BAHADUR,

Haiti. G.C.S.T., G.C.I.E., MAHARAO OF KUTCH.

Honduras. Italy, The Hon. CARLO SCHANZER, Senator.

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Inde, Son Altesse le Maharajad-hiraj MIRZA Japan, His Excellency Baron GONSUKE HAYASHTMAHARAO SHRI K-HENGARJI SAWAI, BAHADUR, _ M. OKA (substitute).G.C.S.I. G.C.I.E., MAHARAO DE KUTCH. Liberia, Baron RUDOIPH AUGUSTE LEHMANW.

Italie, L'honorable CARLO SCHANZER, Senateur. Luxembourg, His Excellency M. Emile REUTER,Japon, Son Excellence le Baron GONSUKE Netherlands, Prof. M. W. F. TREUB.

HAYASHI. aNew ZEALAND, M. C. KNOWLES (Substitute),- M. OKA (suppleant). Nicaragua.

Libdria, Be Baron RUDOLPH AUGUSTE LEHMANN. Norway, Dr. CHRISTIAN LOUS LANGE.Luxembourg, Son Excellence M. EMILE REUTER. Panama, M. RAOUL ARTHUR AMADOR.Nicaragua. 'Paraguay, His Excellency Dr. HECTOR VELAZ-Norvege, Le Docteur CHRISTIAN LOUS LANGE. QUEZ.Nouvelle-Zelande, M. C. KNOWLES (suppleant). Peru.Panama, M. RAOUL ARTHUR AMADOR. Persia, His Highness Prince ARFA-ED-DOWLEH,Paraguay, Son Excellence le Docteur HECTOR Poland, His Excellency Prof. SIMON ASKENAZY.

VELAZQUEZ. - M. CASIMIR OLSZOWSKI and AdmiralPays-Bas, Le Professeur M. W. F. TREUB. ZWIRKOWSKI (substitute).Perou. Portugal, His Excellency M. YOAO DE MELLOPerse, Son Altesse le Prince ARFA-ED-DOWLEH. BARRETO.Pologne, Son Excellence le Prof. SIMON ASKE- Roumania, Prof. DEMETRE NEGULESCO.

NAZY. Salvador.M. CASIMIR OLSZOWSKI. Serb-Croat-Slovene State, His ExcellencyL- 'Amiral ZWIERROWSKII, Dr. MILOUTINE JOVANOVITCH.

(suppleants). Siam, His Highness Prince CHAROON.Portugal, Son Excellence M. JOAO DE MELLO - M. T. L. HOONTRAKOOL (Substitute).

BARRETO. South Africa, The Right Hon. Lord' ROBERTRoumanie, Le Prof. DrMiATRE NEGULESCO. CECIL, K.C., M.P.Salvador. Spain, His Excellency M. EMILIO DE PALACIOS.Etat serbe-croate-slovene, Son Excellence le - His Excellency the Admiral Marquis

Docteur MILOUTINE YOVANOVITCH. MAGAZ (substitute).Siam, Son Altesse le Prince CHAROON. Sweden, His Excellency M. HJALMAR BRANTING.

M. T. L. HOONTRAKOOL (suppleant). Prof. OESTEN UNDEN (Substitute).Suede, Son Excellence M. HJALMAR BRANTING. Switzerland, M. MAX-HUBER and M. MOTTA.

- Le Professeur OESTEN UNDEN (suppleant). Uruguay, His Excellency M. PEDRO MANINISuisse, M. MAX HUBER et M. MOTTA. RIos.Tcheco-Slovaquie, Le Docteur ROBERT FLIU- Venezuela, Dr. C. PARRA-PEREZ.

DER.Uruguay, Son Excellence M. PEDRO MAININ

RIos.Venezuela, Le Docteur C. PARRA-PEREZ.

.. '.t ... .. ' . . .. ............................................. : .,

Secetaire: Secretary :Le Professeur BERNARDO ATTOLICO, ministre Prof. BERNADO ATTOLICO, minister plenipo:

pl.enipotentiaire. tentiany.

Secretaire au Proces-Verbal Recording Secretary:M"'e MIARTIN. IM" MARTIN.

ORDRE DU JOUR AGENDA

i. Rapport du Conseil sur les conclusions presen- I. Report by the Council on the conclusions oftees par la Commission temporaire pour la the Temporary Committee on the Reductionreduction Ides armements. of Armaments.

- .-ides armiements.

2. Rapport du Conseil sur les conclusions presen- 2. Report by the Council on the conclusions oftees par la Commission internationale du the International Blockade Committee,blocus.

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PREMIERE SEANCE FIRST MEETING

Tenue le 7 septembre 1921, a 16 heures. Held on September 7th, 1921, at 4 p.m.

M. BRANTING, President. M. BRANTING, in the Chair.

I. OUVERTURE DE LA StANCE I. OPENING OF THE MEETING

Le PRtSIDENT, en ouvrant la seance, remercie The CHAIRMAN, in opening the Meeting,

la Commission de l'honneur qu'elle lui a fait en le thanked the Committee for the honour which it had

edsignant comme President. conferred upon him in appointing him as Chairman.

La Commission qui succede a la sixieme Commis- He remarked that the Committee, which had

sion de la premiere Assemblee a deux grands pro- succeded the Sixth Committee of the First Assembly,

blemes a etudier : la reduction -des armements et had two; important questions to consider; viz.,: the

l'application de l'arme economique de la Socite6 des reduction of armaments, and the application of the

Nations. economic weapon of the League of Nations.

Sa tache a ete preparee par des Commissions cons- The preparatory work had been done by Com-

tituees aux termes des resolutions prises par la pre- mittees formed in accordance with the Resolutions

miere Assemblee, a la suite du rapport de la sixieme adopted by the First Assembly, after consideration

Commission (Annexes 1 et 2). of the Report of the Sixth Committee (Annexes 'and 2).

Le President espere que M. Viviani voudra bien The Chairman hoped that M. Viviani would

donner quelques renseignements a la Commission au be kind enough to provide the Committee. with

sujet de l'Ftat actuel des travaux preparatoires exe- some information upon the present state of the pre-

cutes par la Commission temporaire pour la reduction paratory work carried out by the Temporary

des armements. Committee for the Reduction of Armaments.

Quant a la Commission internal ionale du Blocus, The International Blockade Committee had already

del a termine ses travaux et present6 son rapport finished its work and presented its Report to the

au Conseil qui a decid6 de le soumettre a l'Assem-- Council, which had decided to submit it to the

blee. Assembly.L'etude preliminaire de la question ,du blocus The preliminary examination of the qustion of

etant par consequent achevee, tandis que celle du Blockade being, therefore, complete, whilst that of

probleme du desarmement ne l'est pas encore, le the question of Disarmament was as yet unfinished,

President propose que.la Commission discute d'abord the Chairman proposed that the Committee should

l'arme conomique pour passer ensuite a l'autre discuss the economic weapon before. assing to th

probleme. Le President est d'avis que, meme sur consideration of the other question. He was,

le blocus, les discussions ne pourraient pas s'enga- moreover, of opinion that even the consideration of

ger profitablement aujourd'hui, car les membres de the Blockade question could not be profitably

la Commission n'ont pas pu prendre connaissance entered upon that day, since the Members of the

des documents qu'ils ont sous les yeux a ce sujet, Committee had not as yet been able to examine the

et notamment du rapport de la Commission interna- documents on this subject which they had before

tionale du blocus. Tout en se declarant pret a invi- them, particularly the Report of the- International

ter les membres a presenter des observations d'ordre Blockade Committee. Whilst prepared to welcome

general, il propose, par consequent, l'ajournement. any observations of a general character on the part

of the members, he proposed that the Meeting :shouldbe adjourned.

I1 tient cependant a faire remarquer que He wished, however, to observe that M. Poullet,

M. Poullet, elu hier vice-president de la troisieme who had been elected Vice-Chairman:of the Third

Commission, a refuse d'accepter la vice-presidence Committee on the previous day, had refused to act

et que, par consequent, il faudra proceder a une as Vice-Chairman, and that it would therefore be

nouvelle designation, a moins que M. Poullet ne necessary to make a new appointment, unless

change d'avis. M. Poullet would change his mind.

M. POULLET (Belgique) confirme qu'il lui est M. POULLET (Belgium) stated-that he could not

impossible d'accepter la vice-presidence. agree to act as Vice-Chairman.

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2, NOMINATION BU VICE-PIRSIDENT 2. APPOINTMENT OF VICE-CHAIRMAN

M. KEY-AYALA (Venezuela), appuye par Mv. RI- M. KEY-AYALA (Venezuela), supported byVAS-VICUNA (Chili), propose comme candidat a la 1. RIVAS-VICUNA (Chile), proposed M. device-presidence de la Commission, M. de Aguero Aguero (Cuba) as candidate for the Vice-Chair-(Cuba). La candidature de Lord Robert Cecil manship of the Committee. M. de Aguero proposed(Afrique du Sud) est proposee par M. ide Aguero. Lord Robert Cecil (South Africa) as candidate. NoAucun autre nom n'etant presente, il est procede a other name being presented, the election was carriedI election qui donne le resultat suivant: 29 votes out, with the following results : Of 29 votes, M. desont exprim,6s M. de Aguero obtient i6 voix; Lord Aguero obtained I6; Lord Robert Cecil, Io; M. Hu-Robert Cecil, io; M. Huber, 1 voix; M. Yovano- ber, I; M. Jovanovitch, 1; M. Viviani, i.vitch, I voix; M. Viviani, i voix.

En consequence, M. de AGUE'RO est doclare elu. M. de AGUERO was therefore elected Vice-Chairman.

3. PUBLICITY DES DULIBURATIONS 3. PUBLICITY OF THE PROCEEDINGS

Le PRESIDENT pose . la.Commission la ques- The CHAIRMAN put the following question totion suivante l':article 14 du reglement interieur de the Committee: Rule 4 of the Rules of Procedure1'Assemblee declare que, sauf decision contraire, le of the Assembly laid down that " each Committeepublic ne sera pas admis aux seances des commis- shall meet in private, unless it decides otherwise "sions. Y a-t-il-lieu d'admettre le public et la presse Was it possible to admit the public and the Press toaux seances de la troisieme Commission? the Meetings of Committe n" III?

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud) declare que, Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) stated that indans le cas actuel, qui est un cas special, les seances the present case, which was a special case, thede la Commission devraient etre publiques; les Meetings of. the Committee should be public; theseances des sous-commissions resteraient privees. La Meetings of the Sub-Committees would, however, beCommission a, en effet, des questions tres difficile. private. The Committee had very difficult questionsa examiner, et, comme les classes, officielles, mettent to consider, and since a satisfactory solution of themobstacle a leur heurelse solution, il est indispen- was opposed by the official classes, it was essentialsable que la. Commlllission ait l'appui de l'opinion that the Committee should be supported by publicpublique. D'autre part, certains problemes seront opinion. On the other hand, certain problems wouldpeut-etre insolubles et il sera desirable que le public perhaps prove insoluble, and it was desirable thatconnaisse les difficultes reelles qui auront empeche the public should realise the real obstacles in thed'aboutir les tentatives faites en vude de les resoudre. way of the success of the efforts, made for theirEnfin, si la Conmmission fait des recomnmandations, solution. .Finally, if recommendations were made byelles n'auront de valeur que dans la mesure ofi elles the Committe, they would only be of value in soseront appuyees par l'opinion du monde. far as they were supported by the public opinion ofthe world.

M. SCHANZER (Italie) s'associe a la proposition M| . SCHANZER (Italy) seconded the proposalde Lord Robert Cecil; celle-ci est egalement appuyee of Lord Robert Cecil; it was also: supported bypar M. VIVIANI (France). M. VIVIANI (France).

Personne ne demandant plus la parole, le PRtSI- No other member of the Committee wishing toDENT declare la proposition adoptee. Les seances speak, the CHAIRMAN declared that the proposalplenieres de la Commission seront, par consequent, was adopted. The plenary meetings of the Com-publiques, tandis que les seances "des sous-commis- mittee would therefore be public; whilst thesions eventuelles seront privees. Toutefois, la Comn- meetings of any Sub-Committees which might 'bemission se reserve la possibilite de prononcer le huis formed later would be private. The Committee,clos, si elle le juge utile. Une premiere sous-commis- however, reserved the right to declare the meetingssion ne pourra etre constituee qu'a la prochaine private if it thought necessary to do so. A firstseance, lorsque lles membres auront examine les Sub-Committee could not be formed till the, nextdocuments relatifs a l'arme 6conolmique qu'ils ont meeting, when the members would have examinedtrouves a leur place. the documents dealing with the economic weapon,which they had received.

40 RAPPORT SUR LES ARMEMENTS. 4. REPORT ON ARMAMENTS

M. FISHER (Empire britannique) fait observer Mr-. FISHER (British Empire) remarked that theque le rapport de la Commission temporaire pour la report of the Temporary Commission for the Reduc-reduction des armnements n'a pas encore etc etudie tion of Armaments had not yet been considered bypar le Conseil. Ne serait-il pas opportun d'adresser the Council.une lettre a celui-ci lui demandant de prendre les Would it not be desirable to send a letter to the

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minesures utiles afin que le rapport soit sounis le Council, asking it to take such steps, as would enableplus tot possible a la Commission? the report to be submitted to the Committee with

as little delay as possible.

M. VIVIANI (France), se rendant a l'invitation As the Chairman's invitation, M. VIVIANIdu President, donne un aperqu general du travail (France) gave a general outline of the work of thede la Commission temporaire, dont la premiere Temporary Committee which the First Assembly hadAssemblee a. decide la creation. La Commission a set up. The Committee met for the first time atsiege pour la premiere fois a Paris, en juillet 1921, Paris in July, 92I,. and held its second meeting atet pour la seconde fois a Geneive, en septembre 1921. Geneva in September 1921. Its, decisions were pro-Ses decisions sont provisoires; elles sont contenues visional; they had been embodied in its reports,,dans des rapports que le Conseil, apres etude, which the Council would consider, and then eithers'approprie ou modifie, et qu'il soumet ensuite a adopt *or modify, and subsequently submit to thel'Assemble e. Assembly.

La Commission, dans un rapport, fera d'abord un The Committee would, in its report, first give aexpose general des, difficultes contre lesquelles elle general summary of the difficulties with which ita eu a lutter. I1 existe un abime entre les v'ceux for- had had to, contend, for there was a great gulfmes par tous ceux qui s'inspirent de l'ideal de la between the desires of those who drew their inspi-Societe des Nations et les exigences de la realite. ration from the ideal of the League of Nations and

practical realities.Le rapport etudiera. ensuite les resultats de l'en- The report would then deal with the results of

quete sur la limitation des depenses pour les arme- the enquiry on the limitation of expenditure onments, instituee par la Commission temporaire. La armaments, which had been undertaken by the Tem-plupart dees r es reues refletent l'etat d'incer- porary Committee. Most of the replies receivedtitude du monde et il a etc assez difficile de les reflected the state of uncertainty which prevailed inrepartir en categories bien distinctes. La Commis- the world, and it had been found difficult to classsion a cependant, sur la base de ces reponses, arret them in distinct categories. The Committee had,les termes cd'une enquete statistique capable de'four- however, on the basis of these replies, laid downnir un fondement aux travaux du desarmement. Elle the general lines of a statistical enquiry whicha de meme examine la question du (( droit d'inves would serve as a foundation for work in connectiontigation )) prevu par 'article 213 du Traite de Ver- with disarmament. Similarly, it had examined thesailles et les articles correspondantsdes autres traites, question of the " right of investigation as laidainsi que celle du ( controle mutuel ) prevu par down in Article 213 of the Treaty of Versailles and'article 8 du Pacte. A ce propos, deux amendements in the corresponding articles of other Treaties, as

au Pacte out ete suggres : l'un de M. Oudegeest well as the question of " mutual control " laid downvisant l'article 8 et l'autre de M. Leon Bourgeois in Article 8 of the Covenant. In this connectionayant trait a P'article 9. two' amendments to the Covenant had been sugges-

ted-one by M. Oudegeest, in respect of Article 8,and the other by M. Leon Bourgeois, in respect ofArticle 9.

Enfin la Commission a etudie la question de la Finally, the Committee had considered the questionfabrication privee des armes et des munitions et a of the private manufacture of arms and munitions,deciclde de proposer a l'Assemblee la convocation and decided to propose to the Assembly that and'une conference internationale. Le rapport conclura international conference should be called. In con-que le point principal sur lequel devront porter les elusion, the report would urge that the main pointefforts sera d'obtenir l'adoption generale de la Con- on which effort should be concentrated was to securevention sur 1e trafic des armes et munitions a une the general adoption of the Convention *on thedate aussi rapprochee que possible. Traffic in Arms and Munitions at as early a date

as possible.

Le PR1-SIDENT remercie M. Viviani des infor- The CHAIRMAN thanked M. Viviani for themations qu'il vient de donner a la Commission, Le information which he had just given to the Comn-President esper:e que le Conseil se prononcera dans mittee. He hoped that the Council would give itsquelques jours sur le rapport relatif aux armements, decision on the report on Armaments in a few days,de sorte que celui-ci pourra etre communique - la in order that this report might be communicated toCommission. the Committee.

Aucune objection n'ayant ete presentee contre la No objection was raised to the proposal made byproposition de M. FISHER (Empire britannique) Mr. FISHER (British Empire) that a letter shouldd'adresser au Conseil une lettre pour le prier de be sent to the Council requesting it to communicatecommuniquer ce rapport a la Commission le plus tot this report to the Committee as soon as possible;possible, le PRtSIDENT declare cette proposition the CHAIRMAN therefore declared this, proposaladoptee. adopted.

La prochaine seance aura lieu vendredi, a The next meeting was fixed for Friday at 4 pmn,.16 heures.

Ordre du jour: discussion du rapport de la Corn- Agenda: Discussion of the Report of the linterna-mission internationale du blocus. tional Blockade Committee.

La seance est lev:ee a 17 heures. The meeting rose at 5 p.m.

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DEUXIEME STANCE SECOND MEETING

Tenue le 9 septembre 1921, a 16 heures. Held on September 9th, 1921, at 4 p.m.

M. BRANTING, President. M. BRANTING, in the Chair.

5. CORRESPONDANCE AVEC LE PRESIDENT 5. CORRESPONDENCE

DU CONSEIL WITH THE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL

Le PRlISSIDENT communique la lettre qu'il a The CHAIRMAN read the letter which he had

ecrite a M. Wellington Koo, president en fonctions written to Mr. Wellington Koo, acting President of

du Conseil, en execution de la decision prise par la the Council, in accordance with the decision by

Commission lors de la seance precedente, ainsi que the Committee at its previous meeting, and the reply

la reponse de M. Wellington Koo (annexes 3 et 4). of Mr. Wellington Koo (Annexes, and 4). The

Le President du Conseil espere que le rapport de la President of the Council hoped that the report of

Commission temporaire pour la reduction des arme the Temporary Committee for the Reduction of

ments pourra ltre discute a la prochaine seance du Armaments would be ready for discussion by the

Conseil, le lundi I2 septembre.M- . Wellingtoin Koo Council at its next meeting, to be held on Monday,

comimuniquera au Conseil le desir de la Commission September I2th. Mr. Wellington Koo would then

d'etre saisie du rapport le plus tot possible. tell the Council of the wish of the Committee to be....- · informed of the' contents of the reportas soon as-' '~ ~possible.

6. MOTION D'ORDRE 6. POINT OF ORDER

AL^e PRtSIDMNT propose de discuter le rapport de The CHAIRMAN proposed that the report of

la Commission internationale du blocus en seanc| the International Blockade Committee should be dis-

pleniere, sans nommer de sous-commissions, sous a cussed at a plenary meeting, without appointing

reserve, toutefois, que la Commission confie l'etude Sub-Committees, with the reservation, however,

de points speciaux a un ou plusieurs de ses mem- that special questions would be submitted by the

bres, si elle le juge utile. Ainsi l'on parviendrait d Committees, if it thought necessary, for investiga-

presenter sous peu a l'Assemblee le rapport sur tion by one or more of its members. In this way

l'arme economique. M. Schanzer a bien voulu ac- it would be possible to submit the report on the

cepter d'tre rapporteur de la Commission pour economic weapon.to the Assembly at an early date.

cette question.- . M. Schanzer was willing to accept the position of· eutq....ii.. q n. -~- rapporteur to the Committee upon this question.

La -pfoposition. du President est appuyee pa The Chairman's proposal was seconded by

M. FISHER et adopte'e par la Commission. M. FISHER and adopted by the Comvmittee.

7. DISCUSSION DU RAPPORT DE LA 7. DISCUSSION OF THE REPORT OF THE

COMMISSION INTERNATIONALE DU BLOCUS INTERNATIONAL BLOCKADE COMMITTEE

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud) rend hom- Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) praised the

·nage au travail de la Commission internationale du work of the International Blockade Committee, but

blocus; cependant, il tient a faire quelques obser- wished to make a few observations upon the report.

vations sur le rapport. The International Blockade Committee stated

La Commission internationale du blocus declare that, in the event of a breach of the Covenant, the

qu'en cas de rupture du Pacte, le Conseil, assiste Council would decide, in conjunction with the

des representants des Etats interesses, decidera representatives of the States concerned, on the mea-

quelles sont lesmesures at prendre d'apres es merites sures to be taken, in accordance with the circum-

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de chaque cas particulier; mais la Commission du stances of each case. The Blockade Committee,blocus n'a pas dit comment le Conseil parviendra a however, did not state how the Council was tofaire executer les obligations de l'article i6 qui pres- enforce the execution of the provisions of Article I6,crit de suspendre les relations de toute nature avec under which all relations with the State at faultl'Etat fautif. were to be severed.

II y a egalement des questions secondaires sur les- There were also questions of a secondary naturequelles la Commission internationale du blocus n'a which had not been settled by the Internationalpas apport e de precisions; elle dit en particulier que Blockade Committee. The Committee stated, in par-la rupture du' Pacte par un Itat ne cree pas un etat ticular, that the breach of the Covenant by anyde guerre, mais qu'elle donne seulement le droit aux country did not create a state of war, .ibutt that itMembres de la Societe des Nations de declarer 1a merely gave Members the right tddeclare -war. Aguerre. Or, pour pouvoir justifier un blocus, qui state of war was necessary to justify a blockadeaffecte des Etats non Membres de la Societe, il faut which affected States not Members of the League.qu'il y ait etat de guerre. La Commission du blocus It seemed that the Blockade Committee had passedsemble avoir neglige la question de savoir comment over the question of the methods by which thele blocus peut Wtre applique quand 'Etat voisin de blockade could be applied, when the State neighbou-l'Etat en rupture de Pacte n'est pas Membre de la ring on the Covenant-breaking State was not aSociete. Member of the League.

Enfin, la Commission, tout en admettant que le Finally, the Committee, whilst admitting thatblocus economique devra etre applique par tous le6 the economic weapon should be applied by allEtats, reconnait au Conseil le droit d'exempter de States, recognised the right of the Council to exemptl'application des sanctions certains Etats pour qui from the necessity of applying the economic weaponl'exercice du blocus serait dangereux (amendements certain States which for such a proceeding wouldau Pacte proposes par les trois Etats scandinaves). I1 be dangerous. (Amendments to the Covenant pro-serait bon de preciser quels sont les dangers qui per- posed by the three Scandinavian States.) It wouldmettraient d'exempter les-Etats de ces obligations. be advisable to specify the dangers which would

justify the exemption of States from these obliga-tions.

En somme, l'orateur demande que M. Schanzer Lord Robert Cecil requested that M. Schanzersoit prie d'elaborer une nouvelle redaction de l'arti- should be asked to draw up a new reading of Arti-cle i6 sur la base des propositions contenues dans cle i6 on the basis of proposals contained in thele rapport de la Commission internationale du blocus. report of the International Blockade Committee.

M. SCHANZER (Italie) dit qu'il ne peut se M. SCHANZER (Italy) said that he could notcharger de preparer une nouvelle redaction de l'ar- take it upon himself to draw up a new reading oftide 16, 6tant donne que les indications necessaires Article i6, since the necessary indications couldne -pourront etre fournies que par une discussion au only be furnished by the Committee's discussionsein de la Commission. on the subject.

En reponse a lord Robert Cecil, il declare d'abord In reply to Lord Robert Cecil, he stated, first,que la Commission internationale du blocus s'est that the International Blockade Committee realisedrendu compte que l'article i6 constitue une arms that Article 16 constituted an effective weapon, butefficace, mais qui peut se tourner contre celui qui one which might be turned against the nations'en sert; c'est pourquoi elle a cru devoir linter- which applied it it was for this reason that it hadpreter avec quelques reserves et laisser certaines thought necessary to interpret it with certain reser-questions sans reponse. vations, and to leave certain questions unanswered.

Selon l'interpretation de la Commission du blocus, According to the Blockade Committee's ihterpre-Particle i6 vise surtout la pression economique des- tation, Article' 6 -referred particularly t 'ecoliomictinee d eviter la guerre et non pas le blocus naval pressure for the purpose of avoiding war, and not totraditionnel. La Commission du blocus a tenu avant the traditional naval blockade. The Blockadetout i exprimer deux principes fondamentaux : le Committee wished, above all, to put forward tworespect de la souverainete de chaque Etat pour l'in- fundamental principles: respect for the sovereigntyterpretation des faits qui pourraient donner lieu a of each State in the interpretation of facts whichI'application ide Particle i6 et la centralisation, dans night give rise to the application of Article i6, andles mains du Conseil de l'execution du blocus eco- the centralisation, by the Council, of the measuresnomique. employed in the use of the economic weapon.

Quant a la possibilite d'accorder a certains Etat! As to the possibility of conceding to certainle droit de ne pas appliquer entierement cette mesure, States the right to apply this measure only in a par-lorateur rappelle que cette question a ete resolue pat tial degree, M. Schanzer tecalled the fact that thisla Commission du blocus de maniere a exclure tout. question was settled by the Blockade Committee inderogation, sauf dans des cas specifiques, such a way as to exclude all exemptions, except in

specific cases.En ce qui concerne le cas d'un Etat bloque qui As regards the case of a blockaded State

aurait pour voisin un Etat qui n'est pas Membre de neighbouring on a State which was not a Memberla Societe des Nations, il admet que la Commission of the League of Nations, M. Schanzer admittedn'a pas envisage de solution precise. that the Committee had not arrived at any definite

.R~~~ .- ~~solution.

M. POULLET (Belgiqu'e) priesente une motion M. POULLET (Belgium) rose to a point of order.d'ordre. II demande que les membres presents de la He asked that the members of the Blockade Corn-Commission du blocus soient charg6s de dlgager mittee present at this meeting should be requested

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du rapport les :conclusions qu'il contient en les to summarise the conclusions contained i, the re-debarrassant de tout eommentaire. port, exclutding all commentary.

M. VIVIANI (France) declare que la Commission M. VIVIANI (France) stated that the Interna-internationale du blocus a soulevy un grand nombre tional Blockade Committee had raised a greatde questions sans les resoudre. number of questions which it had not solved.

L'article i6 est certainement l'un des plus impor- Article i6 was undoubtedly one of the most impor-tants du Pacte, car il souleve la question de la sou- tant Articles of the Covenant, because it raised, theverainete des Etats. Afin d'eviter le risque d'eriger. question of the sovereignty of States. He thoughtle Conseil en un super-gouvernement, l'orateur est that the Committee should not meddle with the textd'avis que la-?mmission ne doit pas toucher au of that Article; otherwise there would be sometexte de l'article. Apres avoir examine les projets danger of transforming the Council into a " super-d'amendement formulas par la Commission du blocus Government". He then proceeded to consider thedans son rapport, il les declare inacceptables, sauf draft amendments embodied in the report of thela proposition de substituer dans l'article le mot Blockade Committee and rejected them all with the(( residents )) au mot (( nationaux )). En conclusion, exception of the proposal to replace the word "natio-il propose que la 'Commission adresse a l'Assemblee nals " by the word "residents " in the Article. Inun rapport reproduisant les idees qu'il vient d'ex- conclusion, he proposed that the Committee shouldprimer, recommandant l'adoption de la proposition submit to the Assembly a report, embodying thequi vient d'etre sugger6e et reservant, pour une etude views which he had just expressed, and recommen-ulterieure, la question des derogations possibles a ding the adoption of the proposal referred to above.accorder au sujet de l'application de l'arme econo- The question of granting exemptions from. the obli-mique. gation to apply the economic weapon should be

reserved for subsequent consideration.

M. SCHANZER (Italie), tout en etant d'accord M. SCHANZER (Italy) fully agreed with M. Vi-avec M. Viviani sur la gravite des questions sou- viani as. to the seriousness of the questions raised bylevees par l'article I6 du Pacte, estime que les Article i6 of the Covenant, but he thought thatparoles de M. Viviani ne laissent a la Commission ie M. Viviani's remarks tended to limit the Committeechoix qu'entre deux voies a suivre: une fin de non- to one of two alternatives. They must either declarerecevoir du rapport ou un examen serieux des diffe- the report unacceptable, or they must undertake arentes questions, qu'il souleve. careful investigation of the various problems arising

out of it.

M. POULLET (Belgique) rappelle que la Corn- M. POULLET (Belgiumn) pointed out that themission du blocus s'est efforcede de fournir des re- Blockade Commnittee had docn its best to findponses aux quatre questions fondamentales posees answers to. the fo'ur fundamental questions formula-par elle. II repete sa proposition-tendant a cc quc tec by it. He again proposed that the conclusionsles conclusions de la Commission du blocus sur ces arrived .at by the Blockade Committee in regard topoints soient degagees du rapport et soumises a It these points should be extracted from the report,presente Commission. and submitted to the present Committee.

M. de AGUERO (Cuba), Vice-President, en sa M. de AGUERO (Cuba), Vice-Chairman, in hisqualite de membre de la Commission internationale capacity as member of the International Blockadedu blocus, repond a certaines critiques formul.es par Committee, replied to certain criticisms made byM. Viviani. Il declare que l'etude et l'application . Viviani. He stte tat the taskof thede l'article I6 ne constituaient pas la seule mission Blockade Committee was not confined to the studyde la Commission du blocus, mais que la Commis- and application of Article i6; it had also includedsion a eui egalement le devoir de presenter des amen- the submission of amendments.demlents.

II repond a M. Viviani que la Commission a tou- In reply to M. Viviani, he stated that the Com-chel tons les. points suggeres par l'analyse de l'arti- mittee had dealt with all the points arising out ofcle I6 et que si certaines questions n'ont pas etce an analysis of Article i6, and though certain ques-resolues, c'est, tcomme l'a dit M. Schanzer, que, tions had not been settled ; this was, as M. Schanzel:dans ce cas, l'application de l'article pourrait se had pointed out, due to the fact that the p1rovisionsretourner contre les Membres de la Societ!e des of the Article in such cases might react unfavour-Nations. ably upon the Melibers of the League of Nations.

II releve, en particulier, le fait que le Pacte ne dit In particular, he, observed that the' Covenant didpas, comme: le croit M. Viviani, que la rupture du not state, as M. Viviani appeared to believe, that thePacte entraine un etat de guerre; il faut distinguier infringement of the Covenant involved a state of.entre (( etat de, guerre' i) et (( ,acte de guerre )). De war: a distinction must be drawn between theplus, la Commission n'a pias .tabli la souverainete du words "'state of war " and " act of war ". Moreover,Conseil sur les autres Etats. Elle a, en effet, prevui the Committee had not endowed the Council withque ce n'est pas le Conseil seul qui doit decider s'il sovereignty over the other States ; it had, in- fact,y a eu ou non rupture du Pacte ; les Etats, inte- provided that it should not be for the Council aloneresses, en l'espce les. voisins de l'Etat fautif et ceux to decide whether or not a breach of the Covenantqui sont lies a lui par des interets economiques, had occurred; the States concerned, particularly theauront leur mot a dire dans les deliberations du neighbours of the Covenant-breaking State, and thoseConseil. connected with it by economic interests, should have

a voice in the' deliberations of the Council.

M. HMUBER (Suisse) s'associe aux declarations de M.. HUBER (Switzerland) supported M. de

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M. de Aguero et estime avec lui que . Vivianim a Aguero's stateent, and agreed with his view that

souleve un point essentiel en engageant la discus- M. Viviani had touched upon a vital point in start-

sion sur les mots (( etat de guerre )). I1 lui semble ing a discussion on the words "state of war ". It

qti'il est impossible d'interpreter l'article i6 comme did not appear to: hi to be possible to interpret

creant automatiquement l'etat de guerre,; car la Article i6 as automatically creating a state of war,

Societ6 des Nations ne doit jamais creer un etat de for the League of Nations should never create a state

guerre. of war.

Quant aux Etats secondaires, pour lesques l'ap- With regard to the danger to the 'simaller Sttes

plication du blocus serait dangereuse, il ne faut pas wich the application of the blockade iiieasures

oublier qu'a c6te de l'alinea 1 de l'article i6, qui might involve, it should not be forgotten that, in

oblige les Etats Membres de la Societe a appliquer addition to paragraph i of Article 16, which laid

des sanctions e-conomiques, il y a un aliri.a 3, qui upon Members of the Ldague the obligation to

prevoit un systeme de compensationis pour redtiire impose economic sanctions, there was also para

(( au minimum; les pertes. et les iinconvnients qnii graph 3, which contemplated a systeml of coiripen-

peuvent resulter de l'application de ces mesures )). sation " in order to itinimise the lbss and inconve-

La mise en vigueur de cette disposition doit etfe iience resulting from the above measures ". The

precede6e de negociationsi et si ces negociations application of the provision must be preceded by

n'aboutissent pas, il faut qu'il soit possible de corn- iiegotiatibis; if these ndgotiatioiis proved unsic-

penser les risques qu'elle entrainera au imoyen cessful, it must be possible to compensate for the

d'exemptions. risks involved by means of .exemptions.

Lord Robert 'CECIL (Afriqutie du Sud) appuie la Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) supported

motion de M. Poullet, qui propose d'extraire les M. Poullet's proposal to summarise the conclusions

conclusions du rapport de la Commission interna- of the report of the International Blockade Corn-

tionale du blocus, et soumet a ce sujet le projet de mittee, and submitted in this connection the fol-

resolution suivant: lowing draft resolution

Que ceux d'entre les membres de la Commission That the members of the International Blockade

internationale du blocus qui sont, en meme temps, Committee who are also members of this Com-

membres de la presente Commission, soient charges mittee, be requested to formulate and submit to this

de formuler et de soum.ettre a cette Commission les Committee the definite recommendations contained

conclusions definitives contenues dans le rapport de in the report of the International Blockade Corn-

la Commission internationale du blocus. mittee.

I1 est d'accord avec M. Viviani quant au fond de He agreed with the main tenor of M. Viviani's

son discours et c'est pourquoi il retire sa premiere speech; he therefore withdrew his first proposal for

proposition de preparer une nouvelle redaction de a complete redrafting of Article i6. He also shared

l'article i6. II est egalement de l'avis de M. Huber M. Huber's views as to the interpretation of the

quant a l'interpretation des mots ( acte de guerre )), words " act of war.

Le Vice-President prend la place du President. The Vice-Chairman took the Chair.

8. NOMINATION D'UNE SOUS=COMMISSION 8. APPOINTMENT OF A SUB=COMMITTEE

Une discussion, a laquelle prennent part A discussion arose in which MM. SCHANZER

MM. SCHANZER (Italie) et VIVIANI (France) (Italy) and VIVIANI (France) took part, as, a

s'engage, a l'issue de laquelle la Commission decide, result of which the Committee decided to appoint

en principe, de nommer une sous-commission a Sub-Committee to extract from the report conclu-

chargee de degager du rapport les conclusions qui sions which would facilitate its discussion.

permettront de le discuter.

Trois propositions sont faites pour la composition Three proposals were made as to the composition

de cette Sous-Commission : of this Sub-Committee:

I) Une proposition de lord Robert CECIL, d'apres (I) Lord Robert CECIL'S draft resolution, that

laquelle la Sous-Commission serait constituee de la the Sub-Committee should be as follows:

maniere suivante

M. de AGUERO, M. de AGUERO,

M. HUBER, M. HUBER,

M. OKA, M. OKA,

M. SCHANZER. M. SCHANZER.

2) Une proposition de M. VIVIANI, demandant (2) A motion by M. VIVIANI, suggesting that

que le nomi de M. Poullet soit ajoute a cette liste. M. Poullet's name should be added to this list.

3) Et une proposition de M. SCHANZER, ten- (3)A motion of M. SCHANZER, that M. Viviani's

dant a y ajouter celui de M. Viviani. name should be added.

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La Sous-Commission est constituee par ies six The Sub-Committee was constituted with the sixmembres proposes. members thus proposed.

M. SCHANZER (Italie) est d'avis que la Sous- M. SCHANZER. (Italy) was of opinion that theCommission devrait avoir un mandat un peu plus terms of reference of the Sub-Committee should beetendu que celui que lui confie la resolution de rather wider than those attributed to it by Lordlord Robert Cecil, et qu'elle pourrait etre chargee Robert Cecil's resolution. It might be instructedd'examiner egalement les differentes conclusions de to consider the basis of the various conclusions ar-la Commission du blocus. rived-at by the Blockade Committee.

M. FISHER (Empire britannique) et le PRltSI- Mr. FISHER (British Empire) and the VICE-DENT ayant fait observer que le travail de la Sous- CHAIRMAN pointed out that the work of the Sub-Commission doit etre pret pour la prochaine reunion Committee must be ready for the next plenary mee-de la Commission pleniere, la Commission decide de ting of the Committee. The Committee thereforelimiter sa competence A la proposition de lord Robert decided to limit their competence according to, LordCecil. Robert Cecil's proposal.

La prochaine seance est fixee au lundi suivant The next Meeting would ta&e place on Monday, ata i6 heures. 4 p.m.

Ordre du jour : Discussion des conclusions de Agenda: Discussion of the conclusions reachedla Sous-Commission. by the Sub-Committee.

La se'ance est levee 'a 9 iheures. Tie Meeting rose at 7 p.m.

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TROISIEME STANCE THIRD MEETING

Tenue le 12 septembre 1921, ai 16 heures. Held on September 12th, 1921, at 4 p.m.

M. BRANTING, President. M. BRANTING, in the Chair.

9. MOTION D'ORDRE 9. POINT OF ORDER

Le PRISIDENT propose de discuter separement The CHAIRMAN proposed that each of the four

chacun des quatre chapitres du r6sume (Annexe 5) Sections of the Summary (Annex 5), presented by

presente par la Sous-Commission et demande a the Sub-Committee, should be discussed separately,

M. Schanzer de vouloir bien en expliquer les con- and he asked M. Schanzer to be good enough toclusions. explain the conclusions of this Summary.

Cette proposition est adoptee. This motion was adopted.

10. DISCUSSION DU RISUMEi DE LA 10. DISCUSSION OF THE SUB=COMMITTEE'S

SOUS=COMMISSION SUMMARY

L'interprete donne lecture du premier chapitre dui The Interpreter read the first Section of the

r6sume (Annexe 5) Dans quelles conditions y a-t- Summary (Annex 5), entitled Under what Condi-

ii lieu 'a sanctions? tions should Sanctions be azpplied?

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud) ayant de- Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) asked that the

mandP que les diff'rents points duchapitre soient different points of the Section should be discussed

discute6s separement, M. SCHANZER (Italie), apres separately, and M. SCHANZER (Italy), after

avoir accepte cette suggestion, commente le pre- agreeing to this suggestion, explained the first point.

mier point. La sixieme Commission de la premiere The Committee No. VI of the First Assembly had

Assemble avait souleve la question de savoir si 'a raised the question whether economic pressure could

pression economique pouvait etre exercee dans d'au- be exercised in other cases than that which was

tres cas que celui qui est expressem:ent pr6vu par expressly provided for in Article :i6, i.e., the case

l'article i6, c'est-a-dire la violation ,des engagements of violation of agreements entered into, under

pris aux termes des articles i2, I3 et 15. La Com- Articles I2, 13, and IS. The International Blockademission internationale du blocus a 6te d'avis' que Committee was of opinion that Article 16 was not

l'article i6 n'est pas susceptible d'une interpretation capable of so wide an interpretation.aussi large.

La Commission adopte le premier point sans dis- The Committee adopted the first point without

cussion. discussion.

11. STATEMENT BY THE JAPANESE11. DECLARATION DU DILeGU1, DU JAPON DELEGATE

M. OKA, membre de la Commission internatio- M. OKA, Member of the International Blockade

nale du blocus, prend la parole pour faire une decla- Committee, made a statement on the question of

ration de principe. Il envisage le probleme du blocus principle. In his opinion, the blockade problem

sous trois aspects differents ·ought to be regarded from three different points ofview

1. Est-il necessaire d'adopter a l'avenir les mesu- I. Was it necessary to adopt in the future the

res maxima prevues, sans tenir compte des circons- maximum measures laid down, without paying

291-

tances particulieres? Ii repond negativement a cette attention to particular circumstances? le answeredquestion; cette conclusion entralnerait la necessite this question in the negative, and this conclusiond'un amendement au Pacte. would involve an amendment to the. Covenant.

2. Quel Etat doit, dans un cas determine, etre 2. Which State, in a given case, must be consi-considere comme etant en rupture de Pacte? Le droit dered as Covenant-breaking? The right of eachqu'a chaque Etat de prendre une decision en toute State as a sovereign Power to make its own decisionsouverainete doit etre sauvegarde a cet 6gard, tandis ought to be safeguarded in this respect, whilst theque les mesures executives doivent etre centralisees executive meiasures must be centralised by thepar le Conseil en vue d'assurer l'unite d'action. Council in order to ensure unity of action.

3. L'article i6 peut-il etre applique aux Etats, non 3. Could Article i6 be applied to States notMembres de la Societe des Nations? Non, dit M. Oka. Members of the League of Nations? M. Oka statedLa meilleure solution est de tacher d'arriver a un that it could not. The best solution was to try toaccord avec ces Etats au sujet de l'execution des reach an agreement with such States with regardmesures economiques-. to the carrying out of the economic measures.

M. Oka conclut en rappelant que la Commission M. Oka concluded his remarks by stating that thedu blocus a ete guidee dans son travail par trois prin- Blockade Committee had been guided in its work bycipes bien definis: three clearly defined principles:

a) modifier l'application de l'article i6; (a) To modify the application of Article i6.b) eviter d'entrer ,dans des questions de detail; (b) To avoid entering into matters of detail.c) eviter toute discussion ayant trait au blocus (c) To avoid any discussion relating to the mari-

maritime et aux mesures militaires que pour- time blockade and the military measuresrait necessiter l'application du blocus econo- which might be necessitated by the applica-mique. tion of the economic blockade.

M. Oka se declare pleinement d'accord avec ces M. Oka stated he was in full agreement with theseprincipes. principles.

12. REPRISE DE LA DISCUSSION DU RiSUMI 12. RESUMPTION OF THE DISCUSSION ONTHE, SUMMARY

II est -donne lecture du deuxiemne point du premier The second point of the first Section was read.chapitre

Apres urie explication de M. SCHANZER (Ita- After an explanation y M. SCHANZER (Italy)lie), portant sur la difference entre acte de guerre t on the difference between an act of war and a stateetat de gnerre et sur le devoir de la Societe des of war, and on the dutv of the League of NationsNations d'eviter les guerres, le deuxieme point est to avoid war, the second point was adopted withoutadopte sans discussion. discussion.

M. SCHANZER propose de disposer 1e reste du M. SCHANZER proposed that the rest of Sec-premier chapitre conmme suit : tion I should be arranged as follows :

1. Transporter le troisieme point apres le deuxieme I. To place the third point after the second pointpoint du chapitre IV; of Section IV.

2. Transporter la derniere phrase du quatrieme 2. To place the last sentence of the fourth pointpoint apres le septieme point du chapitre IV; after the seventh point of Section IV.

3. Combiner le deuxieme point avec la premiere 3. To, combine the second point with the firstphrase du quatrieme point de la maniere sui- sentence of fourth point as follows :vante :

(( L'acte unilateral de l'Etat fautif ne pent " The unilateral action of the defaultingpas cr6er un etat de guerre; il ne fait que State cannot. create a state of war. Itdonner- aux autres Membres le droit ou de merely entitled the other Members eitherde se declarer en etat *de guerre avec lui, to declare that a state of war exists betweenou ide proceder a des actes de guerre contre them and it, or to resort to acts of warwithl'Etat en rupture de Pacte ; mais il est dans the Covenant-breaking State; but it is inl'esprit du Pacte que la Societe des Nations accordance with the Covenant that thetache, tout au moins au .debut, d'eviter la League of Nations should attempt, at leastguerre et de retablir la paix. par une pres- at the outset, to avoid war, and to restoresion -conomique. )) peace by economic pressure."

4. Supprimer le reste du quatrieme point. ' 4. To delete the remainder of the fourth point.

' A une observation de NI/. HUBER, qui fait remar- In reply to an observation by M. HUBER (Swit-nuer que la phrase supprim6e dans le quatrieme zI erland), who pointed out that the deleted sentence

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point (ancienne redaction) etait destiuee a exprimer in point 4 (as it previously stood) had been intendedl'idee que les mesures n'ayant pas, un effet 'reel to express the idea that measures should be avoideddevraient etre e6viteles, lord Robert CECIL (Afrique which were not genuinely effective, Lord Robertdu Sud) repond que la phrase en question sera dis- CECIL (South Africa) replied that the sentence incutee au chapitre IV, ou a ete transfere le troisieme question would be discussed under Section IV,point qui la renforce. where the third point, which strengthened it. had

been placed.

La proposition de M. Schanzer ayant ete adoptee, M. Schanzer's proposal having been adopted, thela Commission entame la discussion du deuxieme Committee began the discussion of the second Sec-chapitre : II. - A qui appartient-il de decider s'il tion II. - Whose duty is it to decide that the

y a. lieu a sanctions? necessity for sanction has arisen?

M. SCHANZER (Italie) propose de donner au 'M. SCHANZER (Italy) proposed that the firstpremier point la nouvelle redaction suivante: (( I point should be redrafted as follows " It is theappartient aux differents Membres de la Societe de duty of the various Members of the League to decidedeterminer s'il y a eu rupture de Pacte. Les obliga- whether a breach of the Covenant has occurred. Thetions qui incombent aux Membres, en vertu de cet obligations which are imposed on the. Members byarticle, decoulent directement du Pacte et leur mise reason of this Article arise directly out of the Cove-en vigueur releve de la foi due aux traites. )) nant, and the right to enforce them rests upon the

principle of the sanctity of treaties."

Il ne faut pas donner l'impression qu'on soupconnc While there must not be any suggestion thatles Etats de ne pas vouloir respecter les engagements States might not be willing to respect the obligationsqu'ils ont pris; mais, d'autre part, une fois qu'unm they had undertaken, it was essential to avoid anyrupture du Pacte a ete constatee, il faut absolument appearance of leaving them the right to decide, onceeviter de paraitre leur laisser le droit de decider s'il a breach of the Covenant had been ascertained,doivent ou non appliquer les sanctions. whether they ought to apply the sanctions.

M.TREUB (Pays-Bas) est d'accord avec M. Schan- M. TREUB (Netherlands) agreed with M. Schan-zer, mais il se demande, a propos des mots (( il zer, but he asked, with refernece to the words "itappartient aux differents Membres de la Societe de is the duty of the various Members of the League todeterminer s'il y a eu rupture du Pacte )), ce qui decide whether a breach of the Covenant has oc-arriverait, au cas ou un Etat, voulant la guerre, curred ", what would happen in the case where apretexterait a tort qu'un autre Etat a commis une State which desired war falsely alleged that anotherinfraction au Pacte. State had been guilty of a breach of the Covenant.

Le VICE-PRlSIDENT, tout en reconnaissantt The VICE-CHAIRMAN, while recognising thebien-fonde de la question, declare que l'objection est question as apposite, stated that the objection wasimlplicitement resolue par le deuxieme point du explicitly met in point 2 of the same Section of thememe chapitre du resume. summary.

A une proposition de M. LANGE (Norvege) d'in- On M. LANGE (Norway) proposing to transposetervertir les points i et 2, M. SCHANZER (Italie) points i and 2, M. SCHANZER (Italy) replied thatrepond qu'il serait preferable de conserver l'ordre it would be better to keep the order adopted by theadopte par la Sous-Commission parce que c'est la Sub-Committee, as it was the logical order.'ordre logique.

Le premier point, tel qu'il a ete am.ende pna.; Point I as amended by M. Schanzer was approved.

M. Schanzer, est approuve.

Apres une breve discussion du deuxieme point, au After a short discussion on point 2, in whichcours de laquelle lord Robert CECIL rappelle que Lord Robert C'ECIL recalled the fact that the sameles meines idcees ont etei exprimees par la premiere ideas had been expressed by the First Assembly,Assemblee et que la procedure approuvee par ellk and that the procedure approved by it would auto-resoudrait automatiquement la question soulevee pai matically dispose of the question raised by M. Treub,.M. Treub, M. SCHANZER (Italie) signale qu'il a M. SCHANZER (Italy) pointed out that he intendedl'intention de deposer un amendement qui tiendra to bring forward an amendment, which would takecompte des observations de lord Robert Cecil into consideration Lord Robert Cecil's observations(Annexe 6). (Annex 6).

La Cozmmission decide d'ajoLurner l'examen des The Committee decided to postlone the examina-

points amendes par Al. Schlanzer (2 et 4) jusqu'au tion of the points amnended by M. Schanzer (2 and 4)

moment o-h ses membres aluront sous les yeux l1 until the m.embers had the new text before. thenm

nouveau texte.

M. SCHANZER (Italie) propose d'ajouter au cin- M. T SCTT-A. NZER (Italy) suggested adding to pointquieme point les mots (( design6s eventuellement par 5 the words, "apfpointed by the Council, if the

le Conseil )), afin de donner satisfaction i une remar- necessity should arise ", in order to meet the objeoque de lord Robert Cecil. tion raised by Lord Robert Cecil.

—- 293 —-

M. HUBER (Suisse) fait cependant observer que, M. HUBER (Switzerland) pointed out, however,si le Conseil doit faire des designations, il appartient that, though the Council had to make the appoint-k l'Assemblee de fixer les principes suivant les ments, it was the duty of the Assembly to deter-quelles elles doivent etre faites. mine the principles according to which the appoint-

ments should be made.

Le cinquieme point est adopte', mais la redaction Point 5 was adopted, but the final drafting wasdefinitive en est ajournee. postponed.

La Commission aborde ensuite la discussion du The Committee then proceeded to the discussiontroisieme chapitre : A quel moment appliquer ces of the third Section : At what moment, and bymesures et par qui les faire appliquer ? whom, should the sanctions be applied?

Lord Robert CCECIL (Afrique du Sud) propose & Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) proposed thesupprimer les derniers mots du premier point et de deletion of the last words of the first point, and thesubstituer au debut le mot (( suggerer ) au mot substitution of the word "suggest" for "fix" at(( fixer )). the beginning.

M. SCHANZER (Italie) accepte le premier amen M. SCHANZER (Italy) adopted the first amend-dement, mais rejette l'autre: en ce qui concerne les ment, but rejected the second. He thought that,mesures d'execution, la decision doit etre centralisee as far as the measures of execution were concerned.par le Conseil. the decision must be centralised by the Council.

Le premier point est adopte sous la forme sui- 'The first point was adopted in the followingvante: form

( Le Conseil doit fixer la date A laquelle il "The Council should fix the date on whichconvient de prendre les mesures en question et the measures in question are to be taken, anddevra notifier cette date a tous les Membres Ide should intimate that date to all the Membersla Societe. )) of the League."

Le point 2, paragraphe a), est adopte avec quelques Point 2, paragraph (a) was adopted, with a fewmodifications suggerees par M. SCHANZER, en vue modifications, suggested by M. SCHANZER, inde donner droit a certaines observations de lord order to comply with certain observations made byR.bert Cecil, qui avait exprime la crainte que ce Lord Robert Cecil, who had expressed the fear thatpoint ne semblat donner au Conseil le pouvoir de this point seemed to give the Council power to directdiriger des operations militaires, navales, etc. military and naval operations, etc.

Les modifications sont approuve'es et le para- The modifications were approved, and the para-graphe est redige comme suit : graph reconstructed as follows:

Tous les Etats doivent etre sur le meme pied "All States must be on the same footing aspour l'application des mesures de pression &co- regards the application of the measures of eco-nomique, sous les reserves suivantes: nomic pressure, with the following reserva-

x a) Il peut etre n6cessaire de recommander tions:des mesures particulieres a certains Etats. )) " (a) It may be necessary to recommend spe-

cial measures in the case of certain States."

M. OLDENBURG (Danemark), a propos du para- M. OLDENBURG (Denmark), referring to, para-graphe b), est heureux de constater que la Commis- graph (b), was glad to note that the Internationalsion internationale du blocus a tenu compte des Blockade Committee had had due regard to theamendements proposes par les trois pays scandina- amendments proposed by the three Scandinavianves. II declare accepter les conclusions de ladite Conm- countries. He announced that he accepted the con-mission a ce sujet. Elles evitent, en effet, que les clusions of the aforesaid Committee on this. subject,mesures prises ne soient plus nuisibles a l'Etat blo- for they prevented the measures taken from inflict-quant qu' l'Etat bloque. ing more harm on the blockading State than on

the State blockaded.

M. POULLET (Belgique) soumet un amendement M. POULLET (Belgium) submitted an amend-au paragraphe en question (Annexe 7). ment to the paragraph in question (Annex 7).

La discussion du paragraphe est ajournee a la pro- The discussion of this paragraph was postponed tochaine seance, qui aura lieu le mercredi suivant a the next meeting, to talke place on'Wendnesday atI5 h. 30. 3.30 p.m.

La seance est levee a i8 h. 30. The meeting adjourned at 6.30 p.m.

' 294 —

QUATRIEME SEANCE FOURTH MEETING

Tenue le 16 septembre 1921, a 15 h. 30. Held on September 16th, 1921, at 3.30 p.m.

M. BRANTING, President. M. BRANTING, Chairman.

13. COMMUNICATIONS DU PRtISIDENT 13. STATEMENTS BY THE CHAIRMAN.

a) RAPPORT DE LA COMMISSION TEMPORAIRE MIXTE (a) REPORT OF THE TEMPORARY MIXED COMMISSION

POUR LA REDUCTION DES ARMEMENTS. FOR THE REDUCTION OF ARMAMENTS.

Le PRISIDENT communique a la Commission The CIAIRMAN communicated to the Commit-

une lettre de M. Wellington Koo, president du Con- tee ,a letter from Mr. Wellington Koo, acting Presi-

seil en exercice, lui transmettant le rapport de la dent of the Council, transmitting to him a Report of

Commission temporaire mixte pour la reduction des the Temporary Mixed Commission for the Reduc-

armements, avec les projets d'amendements aux ar- tion of Armaments, with draft amendments to Arti-

ticles 8 et 9 (Annexe 8). cles 8 and 9. (Annex 8.)

b) ADDENDUM AUX AMENDEMENTS DE M. SCHANZER, (b) ADDENTUM TO THE AMENDMENTS BY M. SCHANZER,

et and

c) AMENDEMENT DE M. POULLET. (c) AMENDMENT BY M. POULLET.

Le PRtSIDENT annonce qu'il a recu un adden- The CHAIRMAN stated that he had received an

dum (Annexe 9) aux amendements dates du I3 sep- addendum (Annex 9) to the amendments introduced

tembre (Annexe 6) que M. Schanzer a apportes au by M. Schanzer on September I3 th (Annex 6) into

resume du rapport de la Commission internationale the summary Report of the International Blockade

du blocus, ainsi qu'un amendement de M. Poullet Committee, as well as, an amendment by M. Poullec

au projet de resolution n° III, 2, alinea b (Annexe 7). to the Draft Resolution No. III, 2, paragraph (b)(Annex 7).

d) RISOLUTION DE L'ASSOCIATION JAPONAISE POUR LA (d) RESOLUTION FROM THE JAPANESE LEAGUE

SOCIETE DES NATIONS. OF NATIONS UNION.

Le PR1tSIDENT donne lecture d'une resolution The PRESIDENT read a Resolution from the

de l'Association japonaise pour la Societe des Japanese League of Nations Union. (Annex io.)

Nations (Annexe io).

14. DISCUSSION DE L'AMENDEMENT 14. DISCUSSION ON THE AMENDMENT

DE M. POULLET BY M. POULLET.

La Commission reprend la discussion du chapi- The Committee resumed the discussion on Chap-

tre 3, § b), amende par M. Poullet. ter III, paragraph (b), amendment by M. Poullet.

M. PFLUGL (Autriche) declare que d'immenses M. PFLUGL (Austria) stated that immense diffi-

difficultes surgiraient pour l'Autriche si elle devait culties would supervene for Austria if she were

appliquer strictement l'article i6 du Pacte. En raison forced rigidly to apply Article I6 of the Covenant.

de sa situation g6ographique sp'ciale, elle ne peut Owing to her peculiar geographical situation, sh.

se passer d'aucun de ses voisins.. Son approvision- was unable to 'exist without her neighbours. In

nement en charbon, en particulier, depend entiere- particular, she was; entirely dependent upon foreign

ment de l'etranger. M. Pfliigl s'associe done 'a sources for her coal supply. M. Pfuiig therefore

l'amendement des pays scandinaves demandant supported the amendment of the Scandinavian

qu'on admette certaines derogations a l'application countries, which laid down that certain derogations

de l'article i6 du Pacte: in the application of Article '16 o-f the Covenantshould be allowed,

- 295 -;

M. POULILET (Belgique) prend la parole pour t M. POULLET (Belgium) explained that hisexpliquer que son amendement ne tend pas a fixer amendment was not intended to define the meaningl'interpretation de l'article i6, mais seulement a of Article i6, but merely to suggest certain practicaidonner certaines recommandations pratiques pour recommendations on the application of this Article.l'application de l'article.

I'article I6 oblige les Etats qui ont adhere au Article I6 laid down that States, which had ad-Pacte a ne pas recourir A la guerre avant un cer- hered to the Covenant should not resort to wartain dlelai et, en meme temps, il prevoit des sanc- except after a certain delay, and, at the same time,tivns contre l'Etat fautif qui manquerait a cet enga- it contemplated sanctions to be enforced against agement. State which did not fulfil this obligation.

Mais ces sanctions ne peuvent s'appliouer sans But the sanctions are not to be applied withouttemperament aucun, sans un examen prealable en qualifications, and without any general preliminarycommun des methodes a employer pour atteindre le investigation as to the methods to be employed tobut. On pent, en effet, envisager une gradation,.un attain the object in view. Without exempting theechelonnement g6ographique et chronologique dans States from carrying out the obligations to whichl'application- desi mesures sans dispenser pour cela they had pledged themselves, a graduated scale forles Etats d'accomplir les obligations auxquelles ils the application of the measures, based on geogra-se sont engages. Cette gradation devra cependant phical and chronological factors, might be contem-dependre, non pas de l'interet particulier d'un Etat, plated. This gradation should be determined, notmais de l'interet commun. by the individual interests of any particular State,

but by common interests,

M. UNDEN (Suede) dit qu'il est d'accord avec le M. UNDEN (Sweden) stated that he agreed withdelegue du Danemark pour approuver la proposition the Danish Delegate in supporting the Resolution ofde la Commission internationale du blocus, qui ne the International Blockade Committee, which did notdiffere pas beaucoup de la proposition d'amende- greatly differ from the draft amendment of the Scan-ment des Etats scandinaves. I1 donne lecture des dinavian States. He read both texts. He alsodeux textes. I1 est egalement d'accord avec M. Poul- agreed with M. Poullet. Nevertheless, he thoughtlet ; cependant, il p'ense que la proposition de ce that the latter's proposal could not be put in the formdernier ne peut pas affecter la forme d'une recom- of a recommendation, but that it involved an amend-mandation, mais qu'elle entratne un amendement a ment to Article i6, which could not affect the prin-l'article 16, une modification non de principe, mais ciple but the application of that Article.d'application.

M. REYNALD (France) d6clare qu'il apporte son M. REYNALD (France) said that he supportedadhesion a la proposition de M. Poullet; mais il Mi Poullet's proposal, but he would like a furthervoudrait avoir quelques precisions pour etre str explanation in order to be sure that he agreed withd'etre d'accord avec celui-ci sur tons les points. him on all the points involved.

S. M. Reynald a bien compris M. Poullet, il ne If M. Reynald had correctly understood M.s'agit pas d'un amendement d'ordre legislatif, ni Poullet, it was not a question of a legal amend-d'une interpretation au sens juridique du mot, mais ment, nor of an interpretation in the judicial senseseulement d'une recommandation ou d'un commen- of the word, but only making a recommendation ortaire. S'il en est ainsi, M. Reynald appuie la pro- a commentary. If this were the case, M. Reynald!osition de M. Poullet, car le P:acte a ete vote par supported M. Poullet's proposal, for the Covenantles Parlements, et il ne faudrait pas, dans l'inttert had been passed by the Parliaments, and it was notmeme de la Societe des, Nations, leur proposer un advisable in the interests of the League of Nationstexte nouveau qui n'aurait pas ete soumis A leur to lay before the Parliaments a fresh text which hadassentiment et qui serait applique par la Societe not been submitted for their assent, and whicl1parallelement au Pacte. might be applied by the League, as well as the

Covenant.

M. FISHER (Empire britannique) s'associe aux Mr.. FISHER (British Empire) agreed withparoles de M. Reynald. II ne pourrait accepter 1. M. Reynald's remarks. He could not have accep-proposition de M. Poullet si elle entralnait une modi- ted M. Poullet's proposal if it had involved a funda-fication fondamentale de l'article I6, en affaiblissant mental modification of Article I6, thereby weakeningl'arme economique, mais comme ce n'est pas le .cas the economic weapon; but such was not the caseici, il peut s'associer sans reserve a la proposition here. Consequently, he was able whole-heartedlyde M. Poullet. to support M. Poullet's proposal.

M. de AGUERO (Vice-President) declare que, de M. de AGUERO (Vice-Chairman) declared thatmeme que le representant de l'Autriche, il a reCu he, like the Austrian Representative, had been insde son gouvernement la mission d'appuyer l'amen- tructed by his Government to support the amend-dement des pays scandinaves, mais il ne voit aucun ment of the Scandinavian countries, but he saw noinconvenient a accepter la proposition de M. Poullet objection to the acceptance of the proposal of M,qui donne satisfaction aux Etats de l'Amerique Poullet, which would give satisfaction to the Stateslatine. I1 reconnatt que l'Assemblee et les. Parle- of Latin America. He recognised that the Assemblyments pourraient s'opposer a un amendement de and Parliaments might oppose an amendment tol'article I6 et qu'il vaut mieux, selon les lois de Article i6, and that it would be better, according.la' mecanique, marcher dans le sens de la moindre to the laws of mechanics, to take the line of leastresistance et presenter la proposition, non sous resistance, and to present the proposal, not in theforme d'amendement, mais sous forme de recom- form of an amendment, but as a recommendation,mnandation.

—.296 —

M. SCHANZER (Italie) compare l'amendement de M. SCHANZER (Italy) comnpared M. Poullet -'M. Poullet a la proposition de la Commission du amendment and the proposal of the Blockade Con-.blocus, qui implique une derogation fondamentale mittee, which implied fundamental derogation ofa l'article I6. M. Poullet, dit-il, a habilement porte Article i6. He said that M. Poullet had skilfullyla question sur un autre terrain et donne satisfaction shifted the questioi on to other ground, and hadaux desirs des Etats scandinaves, tout en ne portant continued to satisfy the desires of the Scandinavianpas atteinte au Pacte. States without tampering with the Covenant.

M. Schanzer ne voit aucune difficult6e a accepter He saw no difficulty in accepting the proposal.

la proposition; cependant, il tient a eclairer un point. He required, however, to be enlightened on one

Le delegue de la Suede, tout en acceptant la pro- point. The Swedish Delegate, while accepting theposition de M. Poullet, pretend qu'elle entralne un proposal of AM. Poullet, considered that it involvedamendement au Pacte et M. Schanzer ne pent s'as- an amendment to the Covenant. M. Schanzer couldsocier aux declarations du delegue6 de la France au not associate himself with the declaration of the

sujet des amendcements a apporter au Pacte. I1 rap- Delegate of France concerning the amendments topelle l'article 26 du Pacte, qui stipule que les amen- be made to the Covenant. HIe recalled Article 26dements votes par l'Assemblee n'entreront en of the Covenant, laying down that amendmentsvigueur qu'a la suite de leur ratification par les voted by the Assembly would come into force onlyMembres de la Societe. I1 estime qu'il faudra, de after their ratification by the Members of the League.toute necessit e, apporter quelques petites modifica- He considered that it would be absolutely necessary

tions a l'article i6, sous forme d'amendement. to make some small alterations in Article i6, in theform of an amendment.

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud) declare etre Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) stated that hed'accord avec les orateurs qui out parle en faveur wasinagreementwiththe speakerswhohadsuppor-de la proposition de NM. Poullet, tout en estimant ted M. Poullet's proposal, but he considered that itqu'elle ne supprilne pas toutes les difficult's d'ap- did not remove all the difficulties involved by theplication de l'article. Il est d'avis que la proposition application of the Article. He thought that

de M. Poullet entraine un amendement de l'arti- M. Poullet's proposal involved an amendment tocle I6 et qu'on ne peut la presenter sous la forme Article i6, and that it should not be presented ind'une recommandation. L'article dit, en effet, que the form of a recommendation. The Article said,les Membres de la Societe s'engagent a rompre in fact, that the Members of the League undertookimmendiatement toutes relations avec l'Etat fautif; to break off immediately all relations with the Cove-il faut donc supprimer le mot (( immediatement )) si nant-breaking State; the word " immediately, "

l'on admet que la mise en action des sanctions eco- therefore, nust be deleted if they admitted that thenomiques peut souffrir un ajournement. putting into action of the economic sanctions, could

be deferred.

M. UNDEN (Suede) demlande clue la decision sur M. UNDEN (Sweden) asked for a postponementla question de savoir s'il faut apporter un amende- of the decision as to whether an amendment toment a l'article I6 soit ajournee. Article I6 could be made.

M.- POIULLET (Belgique) est heureux de cons- M. POULLET (Belgium) was happy to be able

tater que la Commission est d'accord avec lui sur to state that the Committee agreed with him on thele fond de sa proposition, mais il tient a repondre fundamental principles of his proposal, but he, wasa l'objection soulevee' par lord Robert Cecil. II est anxious to answer the objection raised by Lordincontestable que l'article i6 prevoit une rupture Robert Cecil. It was indisputable that Article 16immediate des relations, mais il faut interpreter ce contemplated an immediate severance of relations,mot, qu'il serait extremement grave de supprimer, a but that phrase should be interpreted in the lightla lumiere des autres dispositions de l'article. Le of the other stipulations of the Article; it would bemutuel appui que l'article i6 envisage prevoit, pour extremely dangerous to delete it. The mutual sup-agir, un delai necessaire qui ne permet pas de donner port it provides, for would necessitate delay in takingau mot (( immediatement )) le sens que lord Robert action, which would not admit of giving the wordCecil voudrait lui appliquer. "immediately " the sense which Lord Robert Cecil

wished to attach to it.

En reponse at des observations presentees par cer- In reply to observations made by certain of histains de ses collegues, M. Poullet consent a sup- colleagues, M. Poullet agreed to delete the phrase,primler dans son amtendement la phrase (( confor- "in conformity with paragraph 3 of Article i6 ", inmnement a l'alinea 3 de l'article r6 )). his, amenldment.

M. SCHANZER (Italie) n'a rien a ajouter aux M. SCHANZER (Italy) had nothing to add toobservations de M. Poullet en reponse a lord Robert M. Poullet's observations in reply to Lord RobertCecil, mais il fait une motion d'ordre au sujet de Cecil, but he wished to raise a point of order con-

la proposition d'ajournement du delegue de la cerning the proposal for adjournment made by the

Suede. II prefererait que la Commission se declartt Swedish Delegate. He would have preferred that

avant d'entamer l'etude de la question du desar- the Committee' should make a declaration beforemement. entering upon the consideration of the question of

Disarmament.

Le PRESIDENT fait remarquer que le delegu.e de The CHAIRNIAN remarked that the Swedishla Suede ne demande pas un ajournement ind6fini Delegate did not ask for an indefinite adjournmentde la dclecision, mais l'ajournement, jusqu'a la fin de of the decision, but an adjournment uintil the end of

—- 297

la discussion, des points du resum6 du rapport de the discussion on the points contained in the Sum-la Commission du blocus. mary of the Blockade Committee's Report.

II declare close la discussion de l'amendement He therefore declared the discussion of M.Poullet'sPoullet et constate que cet amendement est adopt6 amendment closed, and stated that the amendmentavec la suppression des mots (( conformement a was adopted, with the deletion of the words" inl'alin6a 3 de l'article 16 )). conformity with paragraph 3 of Article I6."

15. REPRISE DE LA DISCUSSION 15. RESUMPTION OF THE DISCUSSIONDU CHAPITRE II DU RESUMEf ON CHAPTER II OF THE SUMMARY

DE LA SOUS=COMMISSION OF THE SUB=COMMITTEE.

A qui appartient-il de decider s'il y a lieu Whose duty is it to decide that the: necessity fora des sanctions ? sanctions has arisen ?

Le PRISIDENT rappelle que le point i a et6 The CHAIRMAN recalled that Point i had beenadopte par la Commission le I2 septembre et de- adopted by the Committee on September I2th, andmande a la Commission de passer a l'examen 'du asked the Committee to pass to the consideration ofpoint 2. Point 2.

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud) propose Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) proposed aune modification de redaction pour la clarte du modification in the drafting to make the texttexte. Le point dit, en effet, que le (( Conseil sera clearer. The point said that, " All cases of viola-saisi ,d'urgence de tous cas de rupture du Pacte a tion of the Covenant should be referred to thela demande de tout Etat Membre de la Societe )) Council as a matter of urgency at the request ofet que (( le Secretaire general avertira les Membres any Member of the League, and the Secretary-Gedes evenements qui pourraient e6ventuellement neral would communicate to the Members eventsdonner lieu a rupture du Pacte )). I1 y a lieu de mo- which might possibly lead to' a violation of thedifier la phrase (( au regu de cet avertissement )) et Covenant." It was necessary, therefore, to modifyd'y ajouter les mots (( au requ de la demande d'un the phrase " upon receipt of such communication ",Etat ou de l'avertissement du Secretaire general. )) and to add the words " upon receipt of a request

from a State or of a communication from the Secre-tary-General."

M. SCHANZER (Italie) accepte l'amendement de M. SCHANZER (Italy) accepted Lord Robertlord Robert Cecil, qui complete la disposition du Cecil's amendment, which amplified the paragraph.paragraphe.

Lord Robert CECIL. (Afrique du Sud) tient a Lord Robert CECIL (South.Africa) wished to putposer une autre question a M. Schanzer. M. Schanzer another question to M. Schanzer. M. Schanzer hada supprim6 dans sa nouvelle redaction les mots (( le deleted in his new text the words " the selection ofchoix des Etats qu'il y aurait lieu de convoquer the States which would have to be summoned wouldpourrait 6tre fait provisoirement par le President du be made provisionally by the Acting President of theConseil en fonctions, sous reserve de la decision du Council, subject to the decision arrived at by theConseil )). N'y a-t-il pas lieu de craindre que la sup- Council." Was there not reason to fear that thepression de cette phrase n'entraine la necessite Id'une deletion of this phrase would involve the necessity ofreunion preliminaire du Conseil et n'implique, par a preliminary meeting of the Council, and would itconsequent, un delai dans l'application des sanc- not, therefore, involve delay in the application oftions? the sanctions?

M. SCHANZER (Italic) craint de donner un pou- M. SCHANZER (Italy) was reluctant to give toovoir trop etendu au President du Conseil. extensive a power to the President of the Council.

Lord Robert CECIL ne soutenant pas, sa propo- As Lord Robert CECIL did not adhere to hissition, le point 2 est adopte avec la modification de proposal, Point 2 was adopted, with the above-redactivn mentionnee ci-dessus. mentioned modification in the text.

La Commission passe ensuite a l'examen du The Committee then passed to the consideration ofpoint 3. Point 3.

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud) adopte ce Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) adopted thispoint a condition que la Commission accepte de pro- point on condition that the Committee should agreeposer l'amendement a l'article i6 vise au point 4. to propose the amendment to Article I6 contem-

plated by Point 4.

M. SCHANZER (Italie) insiste pour l'adoption M. SCHANZER (Italy) urged that his wordingde son texte aui reconnalt la necessite d'une centra- should be adonted as recognising the necessity forlisation des efforts par le Conseil. Il estime qu'il est the centralisation of the efforts made by the Coun-indispensable que le Conseil n'exprime pas seule- cil. He considered that it was essential that th_

2 98 ^

ment un avis, mais prenne une decision, qui serait Council should not only express an opinion, butinse6re ,dans le proces-verbal adresse aux Etats, avec take a decision, which would be inserted in thel'invitation aux Etats de s'associer aux mesures Minutes addressed to the States, together with thedecidees par lui. invitation to the States to associate themselves with

the measures upon which it had decided.

Le PRISIDENT estime qu'il serait utile The CHAIRMAN was of opinion that it would bed'ajourner, conformement a la decision prise en ce well, in accordance with the decisions taken regard-qui concerne le paragraphe 3, 2 b, la discussion des ing paragraph 3, 2 (b), to postpone the discussionpoints 3 et 4 qui prevoient un.amendement a l'ar- of Points 3 and 4, dealing with the amendment oftide 16, jusqu'a l'adoption des autres points. Une Article i6, until the other Points had been adopted.question aussi serieuse doit etre discutee en la pre- All the members of the Committee-some of whomsence de tous les membres de la Commission, dont were unfortunately absent-should be present for thequelques-uns ont malheureusement dui s'absenter. discussion of a matter of such importance.

M. OKA (Japon) demande s'il ne serait pas ne- M. OKA (Japan) asked whether the Minutes re-cessaire de communiquer le proces-verbal prevu par ferred to under Point 3 should not be communicatedle point 3, non seulement aux Membres de la Societe to States non-Members of the League, as well asdes Nations, mais aussi aux Etats non Membres de to the Members.la Societe des Nations.

Le PRISIDENT lui fait observer que le point 3, The CHAIRMAN pointed out that Point 3 con-prevoyant qu'une (( large publicite )) sera donnee au templated affording a wide measure of publicity toproces-verbal, semble lui donner satisfaction. Le the Minutes, which would give satisfaction toPresident renvoie egal.ement au point 4 (2). M. Craa. The Chairman also referred to Point 4 (2).

M. SCHANZER (Italie) ne peut se rallier a la M. SCHANZER (Italy) could not see his way toproposition de M. Oka, car la communication du acquiesce in M. Oka's proposal, since the object ofproces-verbal aux Membres de la Soci6et ayant pour communicating the Minutes to, Members of thebut de leur rappeler leur engagement, cette commu- League was to remind them of their obligations.nication n'aurait aucune raison d'etre pour les Etats There would, therefore, be no ground for distribu-qui ne font pas partie de la Societe6. ting them to States which were. not Members o"f the

League.

La discussion des points 3 et 4 est ajournee. The discussion of Points 3 and 4 was adjourned.

Le point 5, qui avait ete adopte, sauf redaction, Point 5, which had been adopted, subject to finalau cours de la derniere seance, est adopte avec l'ad- drafting, at the last Meeting, was carried with thedition du mot (( e'ventuellement )) apres le mot addition of the word " e'ventuetlement " (if neces-(( sera )) et de la phrase suivante: L(( es representants sarv), after the word " sera " (shall be), and of theseront designes par le Conseil. ) following sentence: " The representatives shall be

appointed by the Council. "La Commission passe a la discussion du chapi- The Committee passed to the discussion of ChapT-

tre IV du resume: (( Comment appliquer les sanc- Ier IV of the Summary: " How are the sanctions tolions ) be applied?"

Le point I est adopte sans discussion. Point i was adopted without discussion.

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud) demande Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) asked whethers'il ne serait pas possible de supiprimer la premiere it would not be possible to delete the first sentencephrase du point 2 (voir proces-verbal nO 12) ; il est, of Point 2 (see Minute 12), since. mention is madeen effet, parle dans les points suivants de la rup- in the following Points of a rupture of diplomaticture des relations diplomatiques. relations.

M. SCHANZER (Italie) fait remarquer que la M. SCHANZER (Italy) observed that the BlockadeCommission du blocus a cru devoir inserer cette Committee thought that this sentence ought to bephrase pour bien marquer que les mesures ne doi- inserted in order to indicate that any measures takenvent 6tre qu'economiques et financieres et.qu'aucun must be solely economic and financial, and that-noautre genre de pression ne pourrait tre eexerce. other kind of pressure might be brought to bear:Cependant, il ne fait aucune objection a ce que ces nevertheless, he had no objection to the deletion ofmots soient supprimes. these words.

Le point 2 est adopte avec la suppression de la Point 2 was adopted, the first sentence beingpremiere phrase. deleted.

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud) fait remar- Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) observed thatquer que le point 3 prevoit la rupture des relations Point 3 provided for the breaking off of diplomaticdiplomatiques sous forme de (( rappel des chefs de relations by " the withdrawal of the heads of Mis-mission )). II estime que ces mots .pourraient etre sions. " He was of opinion that- these words mightomis, mais M. Schanzer lui ayant fait remar'quer- have been omitted, but- as M. Schanzer had pointedquer la Commission- les a inseres pour eviter d'en out that the Committee had inserted them in order torevenir immediatement a des mesures irrevocables: avoid immediate resort to irrevocable measures, Lord

299 9

il demande simplement que la premiere phrase du Robert Cecil merely asked that the first sentence ofpoint soit redigee de la maniere suivante: the Point should be drafted as follows:

(, a rupture des relations diplomatiques pourra se "The interrnntion of diplomatic relations mayfaire, en premier lieu, sous forme de rappel des chefs take the form, in the first instance, of the with-de mission. ) drawal of the heads of Missions."

M. SCHANZER (Italie) propose de supprimer M. SCHANZER (Italy) also proposed that the ensegalement la fin du point 3, qui est adopte avec of Point 3 should be deleted. Point 3 was adoptedcette modification et celle qui a et6 proposee par lord with this amendment, and also that proposed by LordRobert Cecil. Robert Cecil.

Le point 4 est adopte sous la forme suivante, sug- Point 4 was adopted with the following wordinggeree par M. Schanzer: i Les relations consulaires which twas suggested by M. Schanzer " Consularpourront etre eventuvellement conservees ). relations may be maintained in certain circum-

-·.~ -' ~~ stances.

M. POUI.LET (Belgique) fait remarquer a M. POULLET (Belgium) called M. Schanzer'sM. Schanzer que la premiere phrase du point 5 attention to the fact that the first sentence of Point 5n'est pas tres utile et que ce point devrait se borner served no particular purpose, and that the object ofa marquer la difference entre la residence volontaire the Point was merely to indicate the distinctionet la nationalite. betwen voluntary residence and nationality.

M. SCHANZER (Italie) se rangeant h l'avis de M. SCHANZER (Italy) agreed with M. Poullet'sM. Poullet, le point 5 est adopte en principe, mais view, and Point 5 was adopted in principle, subjectlq redaction en est reservee. to final drafting.

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud) demande Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) asked thea la Commission de supprimeri le point 6. La liste Committee to delete Point 6. It was very difficultdes articles dont il y est question est tres difficile to lay down beforehand the Articles contemplated in

La preparer d'avance; c'est 'le Conseil qui devrait that Point, and it was for the Council to decide upondecider du choix des articles prohibes, au moment the Articles which should be included in the pro-de l'application des sanctions. hibited lists when the sanctions would be applied.

La proposition de lord Robert Cecil est adoptde. Lord Robert Cecil's motion was carried.

Le point 7 est adopte sans discussion. Point 7 was carried without discussion.

ILord Robert CECIL fait, a propos du point 8, Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) made similardes remarques de meme nature qu'au sujet du observations in connection with Point 8; it waspoint 6. Il est impossible de definir davance quelles impossible to determine beforehand what financial:mesures financieres devront ree prises et c'est une measures should be taken, and this question shouldCommission technique qui derrait en btre charge be referred to a Technical Committee when theau moment opportun. ' occasion arose.

M. SCHANZER (Italie) ne voit aucune difficulte M. SCHANZER (Italy) saw no objection to dele-a supprimer la derniere partie du point 8, mais il ting' the last part of Point 8, but he was anxious totient a conserver la premiere phrase, sauf a en mo- retain the first sentence, subject to modification ofdifier la redaction, the wording.

WM. de PALACIOS (Espagne) propose la for- M. de PALACIOS (Spain) proposed the followingmule suivante: (( Les miesures financieres, seront draft " The financial measures shall be decided ondefinies dans chaque cas)). : in each special case. "

Cette redaetion est adoptee en principe. This draft was adopted in principle,

Sir George PERLEY (Canada), rappelant le me- Sir George PERLEY (Canada), recalling themoire de la delegation canadienne sur la distinction Memorandum by the Canadian Delegation (Annex 2)qui est etablie entre les relations commerciales et on the distinction which was drawn between com-les relations financieres, suggere de mettre les mercial and financial measures, proposed the inclu-mesures financieres et les mesures commerciales sion of the financial and commercial measuies in thedans la menme clause. same clause.

-M. POULL:ET (Belgique) insiste pour qu'on ndi- M. POULLET (Belgium) insisted that the natureque de quelle nature seront les mesures financieres of the financial measures contempilated should beprevues et il voudrait conserver, a titre d'exemDle, indicated, and he wished to retain the words " forbid-les mots ( interdiction de l'acces a la bourse )), qui ding of all access to the money markets, " since theyillustrent la pens-ee de la Commission, mais lord served to illustrate the idea in the mind of the ComrnRobert CECIL lui faisant remarquer qu'il y a d'au- mittee; but when Lord Robert CECIL pointed outtres mesures plus urgentes que cette derniere, to him that other and more urgent measures werc

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M. Poullet n'insiste pas et lfarticle 8 est adopte, en contemplated, M. Poullet consented to withdraw hiaprincipe, sous la forme proposee par M. Schanzer. amendment, and Point 8 was adopted in pinciple,

in the form proposed by M. Schanzer.'

La redaction definitive en est ajournee. " The final drafting of the Point was. postponed.,

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud), demande Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) asked that thela suppression de la premiere phrase du point 9; first sentence of Point .9 should be deleted. He feltil lui semble, en effet, qu'il est-tres difficile de tracer that it was very difficult to draw a distinctionla ligne de demarcation entre les relations purement between personal relations and commercial relations.personnelles et celles qui ont un caractere commer-cial.

Cette proposition etant appuyee par M. LANGE This proposal was supported by MI. LANGE, andet acceptee par M. SCHANZER, le point 9 est agreed to by M. SCHANZER.adopte sous la forme suivante: (( II sera necessairc Point 9 was therefore adopted in the followingde soumettre la correspondance et tous les autres form : " Correspondence and all other methods ofmoyens de communication a une reglementation communication would have to be submitted tospeciale ). special regulations."

Le point IO est adopte sans discussion. Point Io was carried without discussion.

Le point xi est adopte sous la forme suivante: Point II was carried in the following form :(I L'on devriait faire des efforts pour conclure des "Efforts should be made to arrive at arrangementsaccords qui assureraient la collaboration ;des Etats which would ensure the co-operation of States nonqui ne sont pas Membres de la Societe aux mesures Members of the League in the measures to be taken."qui seraient prises )). In connection with Point I2, M. OKA asked that

A propos Idu point 12 (voir Annexe 9), M. OKA the words, " for and on behalf of the League"demande la suppression des mots, (( au nom et pour should be omitted. (See Annex 9.)le compte ,de la Societe )).

M. LANGE (Norvege) fait remarquer qu'il serait M. LANGE (Norway) observed that it wouldpeut-etre dangereux de laisser aux Etats un droit perhaps be dangerous to allow States to exercise anillimite d'instituer des Cours des prises; il voudrait unlimited right of setting up Prize Courts; hevoir ajouter les mots : (( sous reserve d'appel a la wished to add the words, " subject to appeal to theCour permanente de Justice )). Permanent Court of Justice."

M. SCHANZER (Italie) est d'avis que la question M. SCHANZER (Italy) was of opinion that, sincedu blocus maritime soulevant un grand nombre de the question of Naval Blockade involved a largedifficultes dans le domaine du droit international, number of problems of International Law, the Con-la Commission pourrait reserver les questions du mittee might reserve the question of the belli-droit pour les belligerants d'arraisonner et de visiter gerents' right of visit and search at sea, as well asles navires en mer, ainsi que la question de la crea- the question of the constitution and powers of thetion et de la competence des Cours des prises. II Prize Courts. He proposed the following wording:propose la redaction suivante : (( Dans, des circons- " In some contingencies it might be advisable totances particulieres et pour renforcer les mesures use, in suport of the economic measures to be taken:economiques, ii pourrait devenir opportun:

( a) d'imposer un blocus effectif du littoral de " (a) An effective blockade of the seaboard ofl'Etat fautif; the defaulting State; and

( b) qu'un certain nombre de Membres soient " (b) Blockade operations entrusted to certaincharges des operations du bopcus. )) Members of the League. "

En ce qui concerne l'observation presentee par With reference to the observations made byM. Oka, M. Schanzer estime que le membre de M. Oka, M. Schanzer was of opinion that thephrase dont M. Oka a demande la suppression est words which the former wished to be deleted wereabsolument necessaire. absolutely essential.

Le point 12 est adopte sous la forme proposee par Point 12 was carried in the form proposed by,M. Schanzer. M. Schanzer.

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud) propose Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) proposed thed'ajourner la discussion du point 13 qui souleve des adjournment of the discussion upon Point I3 -questions interessant particulierement la Grande- which involved questions of special interest to GreatBretagne, le delegue de la Grande-Bretagne ayant Britain - since the Delegate for Great Britain wasdu s'absenter. absent for the moment.

Cette proposition est adoptee. This proposal was carried.

Le point 14 est adopte sans discussion.. Point 14 was carried without discussion.

Le PRESIDENT demande a M. Schanzer de you- The CHAIRNMAN asked MI. Schanzer to prepare,

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loir bien preparer pour la prochaine seance une in time for the next meeting, a revised draftredaction revisee des conclusions adoptees par la embodying the conclusions adopted by the Com-Commission. mittee,

M. SCHANZER preparera cette redaction en M. SCHANZER would collaborate with Lordcollaboration avee lord Robert Cecil. Robert Cecil in preparing this draft.

La prochaine seance est fixe au lundi I9 septem- The next meeting would be held on Monday,bre, a 15 h. 30. September Igth, at 3.30 p.m.

La seance est levee a I9 h. 1S. The Committee was adjourned at 7.I5 p.m,

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CINQUIEME SEANCE FIRTH MEETING

Held on Monday, September 19th, 1921,Tenue le lundi 19 septembre 1921, a 15 h. 30. at 3 pm

at 3.30 p.m.

M. BRANTING, President. M. BRANTING, Chairman.

16. DISCUSSION DES TEXTES REVISES 16. DISCUSSION OF THE REVISED TEXTSDU RESUME DE LA SOUS=COMMISSION. OF THE SUB=COMMITTEE.

LE PRISIDENT attire l'attention de la Commis- The CHAIRMAN drew the attention of thesion sur les deux textes. qui lui sont distribu.s, Committee to the two texts which were distributedles textes adoptes ou reserves, le i6 septembre to it, the texts adopted or reserved on September(Annexe I2), et la redaction revisee de ces textes i6th (Annex 12), and the revised drafting of these(Annexe I3). I1 propose a la Commission de dis- texts (Annex I3). He proposed that the Committeecuter la redaction revisee des textes, presentie par should discuss the revised draft of the text asM. Schanzer et lord Robert Cecil. put forward by M. Schanzer and Lord Robert Cecil.

Sur l'assentiment de la Commission, la discus- The Committee agreed, and the discussion opened.sion est engagee.

I. Dans quelles conditions y a-t-il lieu a sanctions ? I. Under what Conditions should Sanctions beapplied

Les points i et 2 sont adopte's sans observation. Points i and 2 were adopted without comment.

II. A qui appartient-il de dire s'il y a lieu a sanc- II. Whose Duty is it to decide that the Necessity fortions ? Sanctions has arisen ?

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud) observe que Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) observed thatla redaction du texte anglais du point i a ete lege- the wording of the English text of point i hadreinent modifiee. been slightly modified.

Ce point est adopte. This point was adopted.

II en est de mneme pour le point 2. Point 2 was also adopted.

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud) fait remar- Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) remarked, asquer, a propos du point 4, que si l'on donne au regards point 4, that if the Council were given theConseil le droit d'emlettre un avis, cet avis doit etre right to pronounce an opinion, this opinion shouldunanime. II faut donc inscrire une disposition sur le be unanimous. Some provision must therefore becalcul de l'unanimite. Les points 3 et 4 sont etroite- introduced regarding the arrangements for obtainingment lies et ne peuvent etre adopte's l'un sans unanimity. Points 3 and 4 were closely connected,l'autre. and neither of them could be carried without the

other.

Sir George PERLEY (Canada) exprime son Sir George PERLEY (Canada) expressed hisadmiration pour ie travail de M. Schanzer et de admiration for the work done by M. Schanzer andlord Robert Cecil. Il admet, a propos du point 4, Lord Robert Cecil. He admitted, in connectionque l'Etat fautif et l'Etat accusateur ne peuvent with point 4, that the defaulting State, as well as theavoir le droit de vote; mais il fait remarquer, au arraigning State, could not have the right to vote.sujet. du paragraphe b), que, si un Etat est convo- He observed, however, with reference to paragraphqua, il fait partie du Conseil et devrait, par conse. (b) that, if a State were summoned, it took part inquent, ~tre autorise a voter. the Council, and., consequently, must have the right

to vote.

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MV. FISHER (Elnmpire britannique) appuie i'obser- Mr. FISHER (British Empire) supported thevation du delegue du Canada. Canadian Delegate's observation.

Le PRESIDENT attire l'attention de la Commis- The CHAIRMAN drew the Committee's attentionsion sur l'importance, des propositions d'amende- to the importance of the proposals for the amend-

ment au Pacte. Les; amendements peuvent toujours ment to the Covenant. Committee No. I, especiallyavoir une repercussion politique. La premiere Corn- instructed by the Assembly to consider the questionmission, specialement charg6e de considerer la ques- of amendments to the Covenant, would propose ation des amendements au Pacte, va en proposer un considerable number of them to the Assembly, thusnombre considerable a l'Assemblee, ce qui constitue forming a precedent for this Committee.un precedent pour la troisielme Commission.

M. SCHANZER (Italie) estime que la troisieme M. SCHANZER (Italy) was of opinion that Corn-Commission est competente pour proposer des amen- mittee No. III was competent to propose amend-de'rents a l'article i6, qui, s'ils sont adopte's, ne ments to Article 16, which, of they were carried.peuvent dntrer en vigueur qu'apres avoir ete rati- could not come into force until they had been rati-fies par les divers gouvernements aux termes de l'ar- fled by the various Governments, according to thetide 26 du Pacte. I1 comprend que certains membres terms of Article 26 of the Covenant. He quite un-

de la Commission reculent devant les amendements, derstood that certain members of the Committeequand une interpretation authentique suffit pour shrank from an amendment when an authenticatteindre le but qu'ils se proposent, mais dans le interpretation was all that was required to attain

cas qui occupe la Commission, ii estime qu'un amen- the desired end; but in the case before the Committeedenment est absolument n6cessair'e. he thought that an amendment was absolutely ne-

cessary.

M. Schanzer ne s'oppose pas, a la suppression du M. Schanzer did not oppose the deletion ofparagraphe b) du point 4 qu'a demandee le de6legue paragraph (b) of point 4, as requested by the Cana-du Canada, appuye par M. Fisher, mais il insiste diain Delegate, with the support of Mr. Fisher, but

sur le maintien, sous forme d'amendement, des he urged the retention, in the form of an amend-

autres parties du meme point. inent, of the other portions of the same point.

M. FISHER (Empire britannique) se declare Mr. FISHER (British Empire) stated that he

d'accord avec M. Schanzer. I1 estime que la Com- was in agreement with M.' Schanzer. He was ofmission a le devoir de proposer un amendement. Le opinion that the Committee should propose anparagraphe b) pourra cependant etre omis avec amendment; paragraph (b) could, however, beavantage. advantageously deleted.

M. UNDEN (Suede) se demande s'il ne convient M. UNDEN (Sweden) asked whether it would not

pas de laisser a la premiere Commission le soin de be well to leave the drafting of the amendment to

rediger l'amendement. Committee No. I.

M. OKA (Japon) fait remarquer que le cas ou un M. OKA (Japan) observed that Article ii of the

Membre de la Societe aurait recours a la guerre, par Covenant contemplated the case of a Member of the

infraction ou non au Pacte, est prevu par l'ar- League having resort to war, either with or without

ticle ii du Pacte. violation of the Covenant.

L'article ii dedclare qu'un tel cas int.eresse la 'Article ii stated that such a case was of interest

Societe tout entiere et non pas seulement certains to the League as a whole, and not merely to cer-

pays particuliers. tain particular countries.

I1 demande a lord Robert Cecil ou a M. Schanzer He asked Lord Robert Cecil or M. Schanzer if

si le cas est un de: ceux qui interessent particuliere- the case was one that specially interested a. Member

ment un Miembre de la Societe, ainsi qu'il est preavu of the League as contemplated by Article 4.

a l'article 4. -

M. REYNALD (France) appuie l'opinion de M. REYNALD (France) supported Mr. Fisher's

M. Fisher sur la question de savoir s'il faut propo- opinion on the question as to whether an amlendment

ser un amendement ou non. should or should not be proposed.En ce qui concerne les observations du ,delegue de With regard to the observations of the Swedish

la Suide, il estime que la Commission prolongerait Delegate, he was of opinion that the Committee

les dcebats sans necessity si, ayant reconnu qu'un would unnecessarily prolong its discussion if, having

amendement est necessaire, elle se croyait obligee de recognised that an amendment was necessary, the

le renvoyer a la premiere Commission. Une Comn- Committee thought itself bound to refer it to Com-

mission n'a-pas a renvoyer son travail a une autre; mittee No. I. One Committee should not refer its

elles" ont toutes la mnme competence devant work to another. They were all vested with the

l'Assemblee. same competence under the Assembly.

Lord Robert CECIL (Afriquee du Sud) est d'accord Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) agreed with

avec M. Reynald sur tous les points. II lui semble M. Reynald on all points. He felt. that para-

que le paragraphe b) devrait etre omis. Quant a la graph (b) should be omitted. As to the question

question posee par le delegue dcu Japon, il croit que raised by the Jap;anese Delegate, he thought that

l'article iI n'est pas applicable. La question de la work to another. They were all vested with theguerre ou de la paix presente un interet general, I Article ii did not apply. Questions of war or peace

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tandis que les questions soulevees par l'application by the application of Article 16 might offer a

de l'article I6 peuvent offrir un interet particulier special interest for certain States.pour certains Etats.

M. SCHANZER (Italie) est heureux de constater M. SCHANZER (Italy) was happy to! note that

que la plupart des representants de la troisieme Comn- the majority of the members of Committee No. III

mission sont d'avis de presenter un amendement. I1 were inclined to put forward an amendment.

accepte la suppression, mais il ne peut se rallier a He accepted the deletion of paragraph (b), but he

la proposition du ddlegue Ide la Suede, qui propose did not see his way to supporting the proposal of

de confier la redaction de cet amendement a la pre- the Swedish Delegate to entrust the drafting of

miere Commission. La troisieme Commission a la this amendment to Committee No. I. The Third

faculte et le devoir de proposer un amendement Comxmittee had the right and the duty to put forward

quand elle le juge utile. Il prie done le president de an amendment when they thought it advisable. He

vouloir bien mettre aux voix la proposition d'amen- therefore asked the Chairman to put the proposal

dement. for an amendment to the vote.

M. OKA (Japon) prend acte de la reponse de M. OKA (Japan) took note of Lord Robert Cecil's

lord Robert Cecil, mais fait observer qu'il ne s'agit reply, but observed that they were not discussing

pas de discuter quels sont les Etats qui feront appli- which States were to put the blockade into effect,

quer le blocus, mais la question de savoir s'il, y a but ? rather, whether or not a breach of the Cove-

ou non rupture du. Pacte, question d'interet general. nant had been committed-a question of generalinterest.

Le PRESIDENT clot la discussion. II constate The CHAIRMAN closed the discussion. He

que la proposition de sir George Perley et de observed that the proposal of Sir George Perley and

M. Fisher de supprimer le paragraphe b) du point 4 Mr. Fisher to omit paragraph (b), point 4, was sup-

a rallie la plupart des orateurs et qu'au contraire, la ported by the majority of the speakers, whereas

suggestion de M. Unden n'a pas ete appuyee. Il pro- M. Unden's suggestion had found no. support. He

pose done a la Commission de voter le point 3 et le therefore suggested that the Committee should vote

point 4. moins le paragraphe b) (( la voix de tout on point 3 and point 4, omitting paragraph (b), " the

Etat specialement convoque a la reunion en ques- vote of any State specially summoned to the meet-

tion. ) . ing in question."

Les points 3 et 4, ainsi amendes, sont adoptes. P oints 3 and 4, thus amenzded, were carlried.

Le -point 5 est adopte sans observation. Point 5 was carried, without co1mmlent.

III. A quel 1moment appliq'uer ces mnesures et par III. When should these Mleasures be put into Effect,

qui les faire applique ? and by Whom ?

Le point i est adopte. Point I was carried.

Le PRtSIDENT fait remnarquer clue le point 2 The CHAIRMAN observed that poinlt 2 had been

a ete reserve. reserved.

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud) estime qu'il Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) ¥was of opinion

serait opportun de supprimer dans l'article I6 le mot that it would be expedie.it to delete the wor(d

( immediatement )), qui ne peut s'accorder avec immediately " in Article 16, which could not be

l'ajournement de la mise en action des sanctions reconciled with the postponement in bringing the

econom.iques prevu par le paragraphe b) du point 2. economic sanctions, contemplated by paragraph (b)of point 2 into effect.

M. POULLET (Belgique) declare qu'il a deaja M. POULLET (Belgium) observed that he had

indique les raisons qui, selon lui, nle rendent pas already indicated the reasons which, in his view,

nrcessaire un amendement au Pacte. I1 ne mecon- nmade it unnecessary to amend the- Covenant. He

nat pas la valeur de l'objection de lord Robert did not fail to appreciate the force of Lord Robert

Cecil, mais'il est d'avis qu'elle ne doit pas, arr6ter la Cecil's objection, but he was of opinion that it

Commissiomn. should not detain the Clommiittee.

L'article 16 contient trois stipulations en ce qui Article 16 contained three stipulations having

concerne les Etats non fautifs. Ceux-ci s'engagenm reference to non-defaulting States. These under-

les uns envers les autres took amongst themselves:

a) a mettre immeddiatement en vigueur ies sane (a) to put the economic sanctions. into force

tions economiques . immediately;

b) a se preter un mutuel appui pour reduire au ib) to lend each other mutual support in order to

minimum les inconvenients resultant de leur reduce to the minimum the disadvantages aris

participation aux sanctions; inog out of their participation in the sanctions;

c) a se preter un mutuel appui au cas ofi l'un (c) to lend each other mutual support in the

d'eux serait victime d'une agression de L- ;event of any one of them becoming the victim

part d'un Etat fautif. of attack by the defaulting State.

- 30 5-- 20

Le mot (( immediatemient )) ne lie pas les Etats The word " immediately " did not bind the Statesau point de les empecher de deliberer entre eux'et to the extent of preventing them from taking coun-die suivre, pour agir, une certaine gradation dans sel amongst themselves, or from observing a cer-l'orclre cnronologique et dans i'ordre geographique; tain chronological and geographical gradation in thes'il en etait autrement, i'esprit cae i articie serat action taken. If it were otnerwise, the spirit ofcontraire au bon sens et a la nature des cnoses. the Article would run counter to common sense and

to the nature of things.M. FISHER (Empire britannique) est de l'avis de Mr. FISHER (British Empire) was, of the same

M. Poullet et il ne croit pas que la clause b) du opinion as M. Poullet, and did not believe thatpoint 2 entraine un amencaement au Pacte. .,a sup- clause (b) of point 2 involved an amendment to thepression du mot (( immediatement )) pourrait, en Covepant.. The deletion of the word " immedi-outre, avoir des repercussions facheuses sur l'opi- ately " might, moreover, have a regrettable effectnion publique. upon public opinion.

Mi. REYNALD (France) rappelle que la Commis- M. REYNALD (France) reminded the Committeesion s'etait deja mise d'accord, au cours de la seance that it had, in the course of the previous Session,pr6cedente, sur la teneur Idu texte qu'elle discute already agreed upon the tenor of the text now underen ce moment et que lui-meme avait tenu a reserver discussion, and that he himself had felt it necessaryles droits eventuels. des Parlements, de ratifier un to reserve the rights of the Parliaments to ratify atexte qui serait, en realite, une modification au texte text amounting in reality to a modification of theprimitif du Pacte. original text of the Covenant.

Lord Robert Cecil, plus precis encore, avait dit Lord Robert Cecil, speaking with even greaterqu'en realite les deux textes ne pouvaient pas etre precision, had said that in reality the two textsconsideres comme itant simplement l'explication could not be considered to be simply explanatoryl'un de l'autre, attendu que, dans l'article i6 du of one another, since in Article 16 of the CovenantPacte, il est specifie que les sanctions economiques it was specified that the economic sanctions shouldjoueront immediatement, alors que le texte de come into force immediately, whereas M. Poullet'sM. Poullet declare qu'un ajournement pourrait etre text declared that a delay might be decided upon.decide.

Apres mure reflexion, M. Reynald estime que le After mature deliberation, M. Reynald felt thattexte propose par M. Poullet ne peut avoir de valeur the text proposed by M. Poullet could have noque s'il prend place dans le Pacte sous la forme d'un weight unless embodied in the Covenant in theamendement. : shape of an amendment.

D'ailleurs, que diraient les Parlements si, a co6te MRoreover, what would the Parliaments say if theydu texte qu'ils ont vote, ils apprenaient qu'il se were informed that, side by side with the text fortrouve d'autres textes differents du premier et dont which they had voted, there were now other textsl'autorite serait suffisante pour s'imposer aux deci- differing from the first; and that these were ofsions du Conseil et 'de la Societe des Nations? Ne sufficient authority to govern the decisionspourrait-on pas craindre qu'il se manifeste chez eux of the Council and of the League of Nations ? Wasun sentiment de defiance 'a Plegard de la Societe? it not to be feared that they might evince distrustCependant, la suppression du mot (( immediatement)) of the League? The deletion of the word "imme-serait une grave erreur, car elle enleverait aux yeux diately" from the Covenant would be a grave mis-du monde le caractere rigoureux de la sanction. take., for the strict character of the sanction would

be obliterated.M. SCHANZER (Italic) estime egalement que le M. SCHANZER (Italy) also felt that it was, highly

maintien du mot (( immediatement )) est de la plus important to retain the wor " immediately." Hehaute importance. II appuie les observations de endorsed M. Reynald's observations by remarkingM. Reynald en faisant remarquer que le texte qu'il that the text he submitted on September I3th (seea presente le 13 septembre (Annexe 9), au sujet des Annex 9), on the subject of any possible exemptionsderogations 6ventuelles a l'application des sanctions from the application of the economic sanctions, anti-economiques, prevoyait la necessite d'un amende- cipated the necessity for an amendment to themient au Pacte. Covenant.

M. Fisher, en appuyant dans une seance prece- Mr. Fisher, who at a previous meeting had sup-dente la- proposition de M. Poullet, croyait que ce ported M. Poullet's proposal, had then thought thattexte nle prendrait pas la forme d'un amendement et this text would not take the shape of an amendment,ne ferait que tracer une ligne de conduite au Conseil. and should only indicate a line of action for the

Council.Cependant, si la Commission estime qu'il convient However, if the Committee were of opinion thatde presenter un amenidemient, il se ralliera a cette an amendment should be proposed, he would adhereopinion, bienqu'avec repugnance. Ne vaudrait-il pas that oinion although relutantly. W itmieux, toutefois, si l'on adopte un amendement, de not moreover, be better, if an amendment were

les. mots (( immoreodiater, e b, if an am endment w r. M. Poullet s proposal; secondly, it avoidre the con-

prendre. de p1r:f.r&ence le texte de la Commissionprendreedepr~-ence letextedelaCommission to be adopted, to choose in preference the text sub-internationale du blocus? En premier lieu, ce texte| mitted by the International Blockade Committee

tradietion existing between the words " immedi-ately " and " postponement.

M. POULLZET (Belgique) est d'avis que sa pro- M. POULLLET (Belgium) considered that his pro-position constitue une recomnmandation au Conseii posal constituted a recommendation to the Council,

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rentrant dans le cadre de toute tine s6rie de sugges- being one of a long series of suggestions regardingtions de mesures pratiques id'execution qui n'ont fait practical measures of execution which had as yetjusqu'a present l'objet d'aucune critique. II s'incli- been subjected to no criticism. He would, however,nera, cependant, devant ia decision de ses collegues bow before the decision of his colleagues if the lattersi ceux-ci estiment qu'il y a lieu de transformer sa considered it necessary to convert his proposal intoproposition en un amendement. En tout cas, il ne an amendment. In any case, he did not think itcroit pas qu'on puisse adopter comme amendement possible to adopt the text submitted by the Blockadele texte de la Commission du blocus.. En effet, Committee as an amendment. When dealing withlorsqu'il s'agit d'engagements internationaux, il y a International obligations, there were serious disad-de graves inconvenients a accorder des derogations vantages in granting exemptions which could notqui ne peuvent qu'affaiblir la portee des obligations but limit the effect of international obligations.internationales. Le texte qu'il propose evite ce The text he proposed avoided that danger.danger.

M. REYNALD (France) repousse egalement le M. REYNALD (France) also rejected the texttexte de la Commission du blocus et insiste pour que submitted by the Blockade Committee, and insistedla proposition de M. Poullet soit transformee en upon the conversion of M. Poullet's proposal into anamendement. amendment.

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud) retire sa Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) withdrew hisproposition de supprimer le mot ( immediatement ) proposal to delete the word " immediately, "anddans l'article I6 et se rallie a la solution proposee supported the solution proposed by M. Reynald.par M. Reynald. I1 demande qu'un Comite de redac- He asked that a Drafting Committee should betion soit charge de faire cadrer l'amendement de appointed to adapt M. Poullet's amendment to theM. Poullet avec le texte ide l'article i6. text of Article I6.

M. FISHER (Empire britannique) demande qu'il Mr. FISHER (British Empire) requested that asoit procede au vote de la section III du rapport et vote might be taken on Section III of the Report,que la Commission se prononce ensuite sur la ques- and that the Committee should then decide whether tion de savoir si le texte de M. Poullet doit faire M. Poullet's text should take the form of an amend-l'objet d'un amendement. ment.

M. SCHANZER (Italie) fait observer que ce texte M. SCHANZER (Italy) remarked that this texta deja ete adopte la laseance precedente et que, had already been adopted at the previous meeting,seule, la question de savoir s'il entrainait un amen- and that only the question of whether it woulddement au Pacte avait ete reserv6e. 11 s'oppose done involve an amendment to the Covenant had beena ce que. ce paragrapie soit soumis a un nouvel postponed. He therefore was opposed to a renewedexamen. study of that paragraph.

M. FISHER (Empire britannique) declare qu'il Mr. FISHER (British Empire) declared he couldne pourra pas accepter le texte de M. Poullet sous not accept M. Poullet's text as an amendment,la forme d'un amendement s'il n'est pas, au unless it had been subjected to very careful preii-prealable, l'objet d'un examen tres attentif. minary examination.

M. POULLET (Belgique) se rend a l'avis de M. POULLET (Belgium) agreed with Mr. Fisher,M. Fisher et demande s'il ne conviendrait pas de and asked if it would not be advisable to refer torenvoyer a la Commission des amendements le texte the Amendments Committee the text which he hadqu'il a propose. proposed.

Le PRESIDENT fait remarquer que la Commis- The CHAIRMAN drew attention to the fact thatsion vient de decider-qu'elle doit elle-meme proposei the Commnittee had just decided that it should itselfdes amendements quand elle le juge utile, et il con- propose amendments when it saw fit to do so, andsulte la Commission sur la question de savoir s'il sera he asked the opinion of the Committee as to whetherformule un amendement a l'article I6 du Pacte qui they would draft an amendment to Article i6 ofexprimerait .les idees contenues dans le para- the Covenant which would express the ideas con-graphe b) du point 2. tained in paragraph (b) of point 2.

Par quatorze voix contre une et une abstention, By fourteen votes to one, and one abstention, thela Commission decide de transformer le texte du Committee decided to transform, the text of para.paragraphe b) en un amendement au Pacte. graph (b) into an amendment to the Covenant.

La Commission charge MIM. Poullet, Schanzer, The Committee instructed MM. Poullet, Schanzer,Reynald, Fisher et lord Robert Cecil de formuler Reynald, Mr. Fisher, and Lord Robert CECIL tola redaction definitive du paragraphe b) transform' prepare the final draft of paragraph (b) converteden amendement. into an amendment.

IV. Comment appliquer les sanctions. IV. Homw are the Sanctions to be applied ?

Le PRISIDENT donne lecture du point i. The CHAIRMAN read point i.

Sir George PERLEY (Canada) rappelle que, dans Sir George PERLEY (Canada) recalled the factle rapport de la Commission internationale du blo- that in the Report of the International Blockade

307

cLus, il avait ete etabli une distinction entre ies rela- Committee, a distinction had been drawn betweentions commerciales et les relations financieres et que commercial and financial relations, and that thela delegation canadienne avait fait objection a cette Canadian Delegation had raised an objection to thisdistinction, La nouvelle redaction lui donne satis- distinction. They were, however, satisfied with thefaction; sir George Perley demande que cette .d&cla- new draft, and Sir George Perley requested that theration figure au proces-verbal. statement of this fact might appear in the Minutes.

Le point est adopte, ainsi que les points 2 et 3. Point i was adopted, also points 2 and 3.

Le PRtSIDENT fait remarquer, a propos du The CHAIRMAN stated, with regard to point 4,point 4, que la Commission se trouve en presence that the Committee had to deal with the proposalde la proposition d'amendemient suivante : rempla- for the following modification: In the first para-cer, dans le premier alinea de larticle i6, les mots graph of Article i6, to replace the words, " their(( leurs nationaux et ceux )) par les mots (( les per- nationals and the nationals of, " by the words.,sonnes residant sur leurs territoires et celles resi- " the persons. residing in their territory -anddant sur le territoire... ) et les mots (( nationaux de those residing in the territory, "' and the wordscet Etat et ceux )) par les mots, (( les personnes resi- '" nationals, of the Covenant-breaking State and thedant sur le territoire de cet Etat et celles residant nationals, " by the words, " the persons residing :insur le territoire... )) I1 rappelle que la question de the territory of this State and those residing in thecet amendement avait ete reservee, territory... " He recalled the fact that the discus-

sion of this amndmdent had been postponed.

M. FISHER (Empire britannique) est d'avis que Mr. FISHER (British -Empire) considered thatcette proposition d'amendement pent soulever des this proposed amendment might raise difficulties ofdifficultes, d'ordre juridique. a legal character.

Le PRISIDENT propose de renvoyer ce texte a The CHAIRMAN proposed to refer the matter tola Sous-Commission qui vient d'etre nomm.e, mais the Sub-Committee which had just been appointed,M. FISHER s'y oppose, ainsi que M. SCHANZER, but Mr. FISHER dissented, as well as, M.qui rappelle que la question a ete tranchee provisoi- SCHANZER, who, reminded the .Committee that therement l'annee derniere par l'Assemblee et qu'il n'y question had been settled provisionally in thea pas lieu d'y revenir. previous year by the Assembly, and that there was

no need to, raise it again.

Le point 4 est adopte. Point 4 was adopted.

Le point 5 est adopte avec la modification sui- Point 5 %was adopted, with the following alteration:vante :

"... if the other measures available are clearly(( ...si les autres mesures disponibles sont clai- inadequate."'rement insuffsantes )).

Le point 6 est adopte sans observation. Point 6 was adopted without remark.

A .une proposition de M. FISHER de remplacer On Mr. FISHER proposing to, substitute indans le point 7 les mots (( seront continuees )) par point 7, for the words "shall be continued ", theles mots (( pourront etre continuees )), lord Robert words "may be continued ", Lord Robert CECILCECIL (Afrique du Sud) rappelle que ce point a (South Africa) stated that this point had been thefait l'objet d'un debat important a la premiere subject of an important debate at the First Assem-Assemblee et que les mots (( seront continuees )) ont bly, and that the words " shall be continued " hadete adoptes a la requete, du delegue de la Suisse, qui been adopted at the request of the Swiss Delegate,

.a fait observer que les Croix-Rouges, entre autres who pointed out that, among other organisations,organisations, doivent continuer leur ceuvre de the Red Cross. must continue its, work during war.secours pendant la guerre.

M. FISHER n'insistant pas, le point 7 est adoopte. As. Mr. FISHER did not insist on the matter.point 7 was adopted.

Le point 8 et le point 9 sont adoptes sans observa- Points 8 and 9 were adopted without comment.tion.

Lord Robert CECI, (Afrique du Sud) fait obser- Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) pointed outver que le point io a ete reserve au cours de ]a that point to had been reserved at the previousseance precedente. meeting.

M. FISHER (Empire britannique) estime que, Mr. FISHER (British Empire) thought that, forpour des raisons financieres et en raison du travail financial reasons and because of the additional worksuplplementaire qu'entraine leur creation, il n'y a which their appointment entailed, Committeespas lieu de multiplier les Commissions. should not be multiplied.

La Commission proposee par le point Io n'est pa.s The Committee suggested in point Io wasi notimmediatement necessaire; elle le serait, si la Society immediately required; it would be necessary if the

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des Nations pouvait exercer les pouvoirs d'un belli- League of Nations could exercse the powers of .

gerant, ce qui n'est pas le cas. belligerent, but such was not the case.

La Socit6 des Nations a deja employe des forces The League of Nations had already employed

armees, il est vrai, mais seulement pour faire execu- armed forces, it is true, but only for the purpose

ter ses decisions. Elle ne doit pas avoir la pr:ten- of giving effect to its decisions. It ought not to

tion d'agir en Etat souverain. L'annee derniere deja, claim to act as a sovereign State. Lord Robert Cecil

lord Robert Cecil av-ait fait observer qu'il etait peu had pointed out, a year ago, that it was undesirable

desirable que la _Societe des Nations procedat a a for the League to undertake the drawing up of regu-

reglementation de la conduite de la guerre sur terre. lations for the conduct of war on land. The object

La Soci6te des Nation. n'a pa. pour but de regle- of t-e League was not to make regulations for war,

menter la guerre, mais de la conjurer. but to prevent it.M. Fisher est done d'avis qu'il n'y a pas lieu de Mr. Fisher was therefore of the opinion that there

nommer cette Commission; et si l'on juge neces- was no need to. appoint this Committee, and if it

saire de codifier le nouveau droit de la guerre mari- was thought necessary to codify the new law of

time, il propose d'attendre les resultats des travaux maritime warfare, he proposed that they should wait

des juristes qui nei manqueront pas d'etudier la for the result of the work of the Jurists, who would

question d'une fagon complete et definitive. not fail to carry out a com'plete and final study of thequestion.

M. SCHANZER (Italic) fait remarquer que la M. SCHANZER (Italy) pointed out that the pro-

proposition a et6 introduite en raison de la situation posal had been introduced in consequence of the

nouvelle que cree l'ensemble des dispositions du new situation which was set up: by the provisions of

Pacte et qui ne manquera pas d'avoir une profonde the Covenant as a whole, and which could not fail

repercussion sur le droit international traditionnel. to exercise a profound influence upon traditional

Plusieurs problemes se poseront a l'avenir; par international law. Several problems would arise in

exemple, il n'est pas tout a fait certain que l'ar- the future. For instance, it was not quite certain

ticle i6 vise un blocus pacifique; il peut viser un that Article i6 contemplated a pacific blockade;

blocus de guerre. M. Schanzer n'a aucune intention what was intended might be a war blockade.

de fixer un programme quelconque a la Commis- M. Schanzer did not intend to, lay down any pro-

sion d'etudes qu'il propose de nommer; les quesr gramme whatever for the Committee of Investiga-

tions qu'il vient de mentionner resteraient re- tion which he proposed to, appoint. The questions

serv6es. Cependant, il n'insiste pas pour l'adoption which he had just mentioned would be reserved.

de sa proposition. However, he did not insist on the adoption of hisproposal.

M. REYNALD (France) s'etant rallie a l'opinion M. REYNALD (France) having supported the

de M. Fisher, le PRtSIDENT c18t la discussion opinion of Mr. Fisher, the CHAIRMAN declared

et la.proposition de M. Fisher, tendant a& s.mpprimerf the discussion at an end, alid Mr. Fisher's proposal

ie point Io dui chapitre IV, est adoptee. to delete Point Io of Chapter IV was adopted.

M. LANGE (Norvege) demancde at Comite de M. LANGE (Norway) as!ked thle raftiilg Comn-

redaction de tenir compte egalement des observa- mittee to take into account also, the observations

tions qui ont ete presentes au sujet du point 4 du which had been made with regard to Point 4 of

chapitre IT. Chapter II.

Le PRtSIDENT prie le Comite de vouloir bien The CHAIRMAN requested the Committee to be

rediger'un texte complet de l'article I6, avec les good enough to draft a complete text of Article i6,

propositions d'amendement qui ont 6te faites, et with the proposed amendments which had been

exprime l'espoir que la question ,du blocus pourra brought forward, and expressed the hope that the

tre discute a l'Assemblee pleniere, vendredi ma- quetion of the Blockade might be discussed at the

tin, Le rapport de M. Sehanzer sera sooumi a la Ple'ary Meeting of the As.sembly on Friday morn-

Commission mercredi apres-midi. ing. M. Schanzer's Report would be submitted tothe Committee on Wednesday afternoon.

La prochaine se ance de la CoQmmission est fix4e The next Meeting of the Conmmittee would be held

az mardi ao septembre, O TI heure s. on Tuesday,. September 2oth, at io am.r

— 0 o 9

SIXIEME SEANCE SIXTH MEETING

Tenue le mardi 20 septembre 1921, a 10 heures. Held on September 20th, 1921, at 10 a.m.

M. BRANTING, President, M. BRANTING, in the Chair,

17. COMMUNICATION DU Pl SIDENT 1 7. COMMUNICATION BY THE CHAIRMAN.

Le PRtSIDENT fait savoir a la Commission qu'il The CHAIRMAN informed the Committee that hevient de recevoir le rapport du sous-Comite de redac- had just received the Report of the Drafting Sub-tion, et il en propose la discussion. Committee, and proposed the discussion of this

Report.

M. FISHER (Empire britannique) declare que la Mr. FISHER (British Empire) stated that thedelegation britannique n'est pas prete a accepter British Delegation was not prepared to accept thel'amendement a l'article i6 du Pacte dans sa forme amendment to Article i6 of the Covenant in its pre-actuelle. II propose donc d'ajourner la discussion qui sent form. On his suggestion, the discussion wasest remise a mercredi apres-midi. adjourned until Wednesday afternoon.

18. RAPPORT DE LA COMMISSION TEMPO= 18. REPORT OF THE TEMPORARY MIXEDRAIRE MIXTE POURI LA REDUCTION COMMISSION FOR THE REDUCTION OFDES ARMEMENTS ARMAMENTS.

Le PRESIDENT annonce que M. Fisher a bien The CHAIRMAN announced that Mr. Fisher hadvoulu se charger de presenter le rapport de cette undertaken to' submit the Report of this Commission.Colmmission.

M. FISHER (Empire britannique) regrette l'ab- Mr. FISHER (British Empire) regretted thesence de AM. Viviani, qui eut ete tout design6, absence of M. Viviani, who, as Chairman of thecomme president de la Commission temporaire mixte, Temporary Mixed Commission, was clearly thepour presenter les conclusions de la Commission. person most suited to present the conclusions of that

Commission.Le rapport qui est soumis a la troisieme Commis- The Report submitted to no III Committees

sion a un caractere'provisoire. Etant donne le peu de was of a provisional nature. In view of the shorttemps dont elle disposait, la Commission te.nporaire time at its disposal, the Temporary Mixed Commis-mixte n'a pas pu arriver a formuler des conclusions sion had been unable to come to definite conclusionsdefinitives sur toutes les questions qu'elle avait a on all the questions which it had had to consider;examiner. Neanmoins, M. Fisher propose a la Con- Mr. Fisher, nevertheless, proposed that the Com-mission de discuter les conclusions et les recomman- mittee should discuss the conclusions and specificdations specifiques que la Commission mixte a for- recommendations formulated by the Mixed Conm-mulees..Auparavant, cependant, il fera un bref mission. He would first, however, make a brief sum-resume du rapport. mary of the Report.

I. Le rapport commence par un court expose de la i. The Report begins with a short statement onsituation politique actuelle du monde et des difficul- the present political situation of the world, and thetes auxquelles il faut faire face. II serait oiseux d'es- difficulties which had to be encountered.perer un desarmement simultane aujourd'hui.

Le rapport fait ensuite allusion a la Conference It then alluded to the Washington Conference,de Washington et a l'etat precaire des finances dans and to the precarious financial condition of thele monde qui necessite une reduction des armements. world, a condition which necessitated a reduction of

armaments.

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La Commission s'est cdivisee en trois sous-Cor- the Commission had split into three Sub-Com-missions. La premiere, chargee de s'occuper dle la missions. The first had considered the questions of

fabrication privee et du trafic ,des armes ; la seconde, private manufacture of arms and the arms traffic;

du droit d'investigation et du contr6le mutuel; la the second had examined the right of investigation

troisi'me d'une enquete statistique. and mutual control; the third had undertaken a.statistical enquiry.

On trouvera aux pages 4 et 5 du Rapport une ana- On pages 4 and 5 of the Report an analysis would

lyse des reponses de vingt-sept gouvernements au be found of the replies of 27 Governments to the

questionnaire envoyv par le Conseil, conformement questionnaire sent out by the Council, in accordance

a la resolution de l'Assemble'e du I4 dkcembre I920. with the Assembly Resolution of December I4th,

En general, les reponses sont favorables, mais elles I92o. Generally speaking, the replies were satisfac-

refletent l'Ptat d'incertitude du monde. tory, but they reflected the state of uncertainty pre-vailing in the world.

A la page 5 se trouve le rapport de la troisieme On page 5 would be found the Report of the Third

Sous-Commission, relatif aux renseignements statis- Sub-Commission on statistical information. It

tiques. II etablit la necessite d'une enquete statis-' proved the necessity for a statistical enquiry to show

tique mettant en evidence le poids des charges mili- the extent of military and naval expenditure. The

taires et navales dans les differents pays et la dimi- Sub-Commission had been unable to put forward any

nution ou l'augmentation des armements. La Sous- definite scheme of statistics; it had merely outlined

Commission n'a pas pu apporter un plan determin6e the guiding principles of such an enquiry.

de statistiques, mais elle a simplement indique leslignes d'apres lesquelles l'enquete pourrait etre! faite.

Au sujet du caractere genneral de l'enquete, deux Two views had been put forward with regard to

theses ont ete pre'sentees : la premiere, qu'on pour- the general nature of the enquiry; first, that of

rait appeler hautement scientifique - celle de M. Schanzer, which might be called a highly scien-

M. Schanzer - et la seconde, moins scientifique, de tific view, and, secondly, that of Mr. Fisher, which

M. Fisher. La Sous-Commission est arrivee a un was less scientific. The Sub-Commission had come

accord et a decide de commencer l'enquete au moyen to an understanding and had decided to begin the

des elements publies et de la completer, en cas de enquiry with the help of the information already

besoin, et en ce qui concerne les membres de la published, and to supplement it, if necessary-and

Societe, par le moyen d'un questionnaire sur la base with regard to the Members of the League-by

du programme approuve. means of a questionnaire on the basis of the pro-gramme which had been approved.

La Sous-Commission propose 'done un plan de The Sub-Commission therefore prepared a draft

questionnaife, imparfait sans doute, mais susceptible. questionnaire, which was doubtless far from perfect,

neanmoins de fournir des renseignements precieux. but calculated, nevertheless, to furnish very valuableinformation.

Les pages 8 et 9 ont trait au droit d'investigation Pages 8 and 9 dealt with the right of investiga-

et au controle mutuel. tion and mutual control.

La Commission ne s'est pas apesantie sur ces The Commission had not dwelt on these questions,

questions; elle n'a fait aucune recommandation; and had made no recommendation; nevertheless,

neanmoins, l'action qu'elle propose a la page Ico the action suggested on page Io would entail an

n'cessite un amendement au Pacte; mais la Sous- amendment to the Covenant; but the Sub-Commis-

Commission n'a pas pris ,de d6cision a ce sujet. sion had come to no decision on this point.

La page 'I se rapporte a la fabrication privee. Page II dealt with private manufacture.

La Sous-Commission fait, h ce propos, une recom- In regard to, this matter, -the Sub-Commission sub

mandation importante. Elle expose, en outre, des mitted an important recommendation; it also set

objections d'ordre general, ainsi que de graves objec- forth a series of general arguments, and a number

tions plus precises qui ont trait a l'abolition de la of serious objections of a more definite nature, direc-

fabrication privee des armes. Elle n'est pas arrivee ted against the abolition of private manufacture of

a une conclusion formelle, mais elle a fait neanmoins arms. The Commission had not come to any defi-

ressortir qu'il y- avait lieu d'explorer le terrain pour nite conclusion, but it had nevertheless clearly

arriver a un code qui reglementerait la fabrication shown the desirability of conducting an .exhaustive

privee et qui, une fois elabore, pourrait etre soumis enquiry, with a view to the preparation of a code of

aux differents gouvernements. Ce code devrait etre rules regulating private manufacture, which, when

adopte par tous les pays, qu'ils fa-ssent partie ou non drawn up, could be submitted to the various Go-

de la Societe des Nations, car si un pays ne s'y con- vernments. This code should be adopted by all

formait pas, les Etats-Unis, 'par exemple, tout essai nations whether they belong to the League of

de rbglementation serait vain. Nations or not, :for, supposing that any country-

the United States, for instance-did not conformto it, any attempt at control would be useless.

Le rapport aborde ensuite, page I3, la question The Report proceeded on page 13 to deal with the

du trafic des armes fondee sur la Convention de .Arms Traffic question in the light of the Convention

Sainlt-Germain, qui a ,ete signee par les Etats-Unis. of St. Germain, which was signed by the United

Cette Convention a la plus grande importance. States. This Convention was of the utmost impor-tance.

M. Fisher declare qu'il peut, au nom de son Mr. Fisher stated that he was authorised to speak

gouvernement, affirmer que la Grande-Bretagne est on behalf of his Government, and declared that

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prete a la ratifier si les autres Etats la ratifient egale- Great Britain was prepared to ratify this Conventioninent. if the other States would do so also.

A ce sujet il propose trois projets de resolution, In this connection he proposed three Draft Reso-dont il donne la lecture (Annexe 14). lutions, which he proceeded to read. (Annex I4.)

M. Fisher conclut en exprimant la crainte que ses In conclusion, Mr. Fisher expressed tle fear thatcollegues ne trouvent que le rapport de la Commis- his colleagues would feel that the Report of the Trem-sion temporaire mixte ne repond pas tout a fait a porary Mixed Commission did not entirely fulfilleur attente; mais il espere que la troisieme Commis- their expectations, but he hoped that Committeesion proposera des resolutions additionnelles et il No III would prepare further resolutions, and heest s-lr que le travail de la Commission mixte n'aura was sure that the work of the Temporary Mixedpas ete vain, si elle aboutit aux trois resultats, qu'elle Commission would not have been in vain if the threea recherches : objects whidh it had in view were attained:

a) l'organisation effective dans, le Secretariat d'un (a) The effective organisation within the Secreorganisme statistique; tariat of a statistical body;

b) un code de reglementation de la fabrication pri- (b) A code of rules governing the private manu.'vee des armes; facture of arms;

e) la ratification de la Convention de Saint-Ger- (c) The ratification of the Convention of St. Ger-main. main.

M. Fisher rappelle qu'il espere que la Commission Mr. Fisher once more stated that he hoped thatexaminera d'abord les resolutions de la Commission the Committee would first of all consider the Reso-mixte et qu'elle passera ensuite a un examen plus lutions of the Mixed Commission, and would thengeneral de la question. proceed to a more general consideration of the ques-

tion.

19. MOTION D'ORDRE 19. POINT OF ORDER.

Le PR1RSIDENT, sur la proposition de On the proposal of Mr. FISHER, the CHAIR-Mi. FISHER, propose done de commencer la dis- MAN suggested that the discussion should com-cussion par l'examen des-conclusions de la Commis- mence with'the consideration of the conclusions ofsion mixte et des deux projets de resolutions que lui the Mixed Commission and of the two Draft Resolu-ont soumnis MIM. Schanzer et Fisher. tions submitted by M. Schanzer and Mr. Fisher.

La Commnmlission1 se rallie a la. proposition du Presi- The Com.nmittee accepted the Chairtman's sugges..dent. tion.

M.. FISHER (Empire britannique) soumet a la Mr. FISHER (British Empire) submitted to theColmlmission un projet de resolution qui reproduit le Committee a Draft Resolution which reproduced thesens du rapport de la Commission mixte et qui, au purport of the Report of the Mixed Commission, andsujet de l'enquete statistique, propose que la Com- which, as regards the statistical enquiry proposedmission mixte soit invitee a poursuivre ses travaux that the Mixed Commission should be invited toavec le concours du Secretariat. pursue its labours with the help of the Secretariat.

M. SCHANZER (Italie), ayant fait remarquer M. SCHANZER (Italy), having pointed out toa M. Fisher qu'il a ete charge par la Commission Mr. Fisher that he. had been entrusted by the Mixedmixte de resumer, dans un projet de resolution, ses Commission with the task of summarising, in a Draftpropositions sur l'enquete statistique., presente un Resolution, his proposals regarding the statisticalprojet (Annexe 15). M. Fisher consentira sans doute enquiry, presented this Resolution (Annex I5).a retirer sa resolution et M. Schanzer propose de lui Mr. Fisher would, perhaps, withdraw his Resolu-donner satisfaction en apportant au paragraphe e) de tion, and M. Schanzer proposed to meet Mr. Fisher'sson projet de resolution la modification suivante wishes by introducing into paragraph (e) of his draft

Resolution the following alteration

( Que la responsabilite ,de l'execution de ces "That the responsibility for carrying outresolutions soit laissee au Secretariat, sous le these Resolutions should be left to the Secre-controle de la troisiemee Sous-Commission de la tariat under the supervision of the Third Sub-Commission temporaire mixte >). Commission of the Temnporary Mixed Commnis-

sion.

Le PR $SIDENT fait donner lecture du projet de The CHAIRMAN read M. Schanzer's Draft Reso-resolution de M. Schanzer avec la petite modifica- lution with the slight alteration which he had justtion qu'il vient d'y apporter. made.

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud) est tout a Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) entirelyfait d'accord avec M. Fisher sur la necessite d'exa- agreed with Mr. Fisher as regards the necessity ofminer d'abord les propositions soumises a la Corn- considering first of all the proposals submitted tomission. II propose a M. Schanzer d'ajourner la dis- the Committee. He proposed to M. Schanzer that

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cussion du preambule de son projet et d'etudier the discussion of the preamble of his scheme shoulimmediatement les resolutions qu'il contient. be postponed, and that the Resolutions contained in

it should be examined at once.II est -d'avis que la Commission devrait demander He thought that the Committee should ask the

an personnel charge du travail de statistique de pu- staff which was in charge of statistical work toblier ses travaux au fur et a mesure de leur execu- publish their work from time to time as completed.tion.

I1 tient a faire une remarque de fond sur la pro- He would like to raise a point of principle regar-position d'enquete. I1 reconnait qu'il est desirable ding the proposal for an enquiry. He recognisedque la Commission connaisse tons les faits statisti- that it was desirable for the Committee to beques; mais ce n'est pas suffisant. La Conference acquainted with all the statistical data, but this wasfinanciere de Bruxelles a montre que 20 % du revenu not enough. The Brussels Financial Conference haddu monde est consacre au budget des armements, showed that 20 per cent. of the revenues of themais la simple constatation d'une augmentation de world was devoted to armaments, but the mereces depenses depuis I913 ne produira qu'une faible statement that this expenditure had increased sinceimpression. I913 would produce but a slight impression.

Il faut soulever l'opinion universelle et se livrer Opinion would, however, have to be awakened,a une propagande active pour lui montrer l'effet and an active propaganda undertaken in order topernicieux et nefaste des armements. I1 faudra, en show the world the pernicious and fatal results ofparticulier, savoir dans quelles mesures l'augmenta- armaments. In particular, it would have to betion des budgets militaires est due, dans chaque pays, known to what extent the increase in military bud-a la crainte d'une attaque d.es voisins. C'est pourquoi gets in each country was due to fear of attack fromii serait excellent de demander aux gouvernements, neighbours. For this reason, it would be most desir-dans le questionnaire, quelle part de leur force able to ask the Governments, in the questionnaire,armee est destinee a maintenir l'ordre interieur et what part of their armed forces was intended toquelle part est destinee 'a faire face aux attaques maintain internal order, and what part was intendedvenant du dehors. A cet egard, le Traite de Ver- to meet attacks from without. In this matter, thesailles qui autorise l'Allemagne a conserver certaines Treaty of Versailles, which authorised Germanyforces armees pour maintenir l'ordre public, pieut to keep certain armed forces in order to maintaindonner d'utiles indications. public order, could furnish useful indications.

Lord Robert Cecil propose done qu'on ajoute au Lord Robert Cecil therefore proposed that thequestionnaire les trois d,emandes suivantes: following three questions should be added to the

questionnaire:

Quelles sont les forces necessaires : What are the forces necessary:

a) pour preserver l'ordre public a l'iintrieur; (a) To preserve internal public order;

b) pour preserver l'ordre dans les colonies et les (b) To preserve order in overseas, colonies anddependances d'outre-mer et les proteger de dependencies, and to protect .them froil'invasion de leurs voisins non-civilises; invasion by their non-civilised neighbours

c) pour proteger le pays et ses dependances (c) To protect the country and its overseas de-d'outre-mer d'une agr;ession de la part des pendencies from aggression on the part ofEtats rivaux. rival States?

Lord Robert Cecil appuie M. Fisher pour demander The speaker supported Mr.. Fisher in his requestque. la Commission temporaire mixte puisse cont;- that the Temporary Mixed Commission should con-nuer ses travaux et il ajoute, en outre, que le para- tinue its work, and he added that paragraph (d) ofgraphe d) du rapport de M. Schanzer contient une M. Schanzer's Report contained a similar clause toclause assez semblable a la proposition qu'il vient de the proposal he had just made, but that he consideredfaire, mais qu'il lui parait que sa proposition est plus his proposal to be the clearer of the two.nette.

M. LANGE (Norverge) fait remarquer, en effet, M. LANGE (Norway) observed that paragraph (d)que le paragraphe d) de la propositionde M. Schanzer of M. Schanzer's proposal did, indeed, meet Lordrepond aux preoccupations de Lord Robert Cecil ci Robert Cecil's reauirements, and that all the Treatie:que tous les traites de paix fournissent une base pour of Peace provided a basis for an estimate of militaryl'appreciation des forces militaires en vue du main- forces necessary for the maintenance of order withintien de l'ordre a l'interieur des pays. I1 se felicite de the various countries. He was glad to find introuver dans le projet de M. Schanzer les mots (( avec M. Schanzer's proposal the words, "with such atoute l'approximation qui soit actuellement possi- cegree of accuracy as is, at present, obtainable, "ble ), car il a conscience de l'immense difficulte de for he was aware of the immense difficulty of thel'enquete statistique et il est d'avis qu'on ne peut statistical enquiry involved, and thought that itesperer avoir tous les renseignements demandes dans could not be hoped to obtain all the informationla forme la plus precise. demanded in the most precise form.

I! fait, en outre, une observation d'un caractere He wished to make a further observation of apratique. M. Schanzer parleides budgets de la guerre trartical nature- M. Schanzer spoke of the militaryet de la marine pour les annees 1913 et I921; or, il and naval budgets for the years .1913 and 1021.s'agit d'annees budgetaires et beaucoup de pays nxe Now these were " financial years, " and many coun-font pas cormmencer leur exercice budgetaire i la tries do not begin their financial years-on the same

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menme date. Il propose done de dire ( pour les date. He therefore proposed saying, "for the finan-anneesbudgetaires commengant en I913 et en I92I )). cial years beginning in I913 and 1921. "

Enfin, il espere que'la Commission prendra comme Finally, he hoped that the Committee would takebase ,de discussion le projet de M. Schanzer corn- M. Schanzer's draft, as supplemented by Lordplete par Lord Robert Cecil. Peut-etre pourrait-on Robert Cecil, as a basis for discussion. The Govern.demander aux gouvernements de donner dans leur ments might be asked to give, in their reply, a gene-reponse un .apergu general sur la situation des indus- ral review of the situation of industries which maytries qui peuvent etre utilisees au cours de la guerre. be used in time of war. He concluded by proposingIl conclut en proposant l'addition au paragraphe d), the addition of the following words to M. Schanzer'sde M. Schanzer, des mots suivants: (( aet notamment paragraph (d), " and particularly that of such indus-de celles de leurs industries susceptibles ,d'etre utili- tries as may be used for war purposes. "sees pour la guerre )).

Le PRESIDENT constate avec satisfaction que The CHAIRMAN expressed his satisfaction thatla Commission est d'accord sur la proposition de the Committee was agreed on M. Schanzer's pro-M. Schanzer, modifiee par Lord Robert Cecil, et il posal as modified by Lord Robert Cecil, and hesuggere de confier le soin de rediger le rapport a suggested that the latter should be entrusted withLord Robert Cecil. the task of drafting the Report.

M. SCHANZER (Italie) approuve cette proposi- M. SCHANZER (Italy) supported this suggestion.tion. I1 repond a Lord Robert Cecil qu'il a voulu, In reply to Lord Robert Cecil, he stated that he haddans la premiere partie d'e son preambule, rappeler wished, in the first part of his preamble, to recallla resolution de l'Assemblee concernant les mesures the Assembly Resolution regarding the measures toa prendre en vue du desarmement et qu'il y a une be taken in the matter of disarmament, and that-liaison entre ce preambule et la proposition d'en- there was a logical connection between this preamblequote. Quant a la seconde partie du preambule, il and the proposal for an enquiry. As for the seconddemontre qu'il est indispensable d'avoir des donnees part of the preamble, he pointed out that it wasprecises sur l'etat effectif des armements dans les essential to have accurate information on the actualdifferents pays. I1 demande done a Lord Robert Cecil state of armament in the different countries. He(s'il veut bien se charger du rapport) de ten'. therefore asked Lord Robert Cecil-if he was will-compte de ces remarques. ing to undertake the Report-to take these remarks

.. '/~~~~.... , into account.

Lord Robert Cecil a demande la publication des Lord Robert Cecil had asked for the publicationtravaux de l'enquete au fur et a mesure de leur of the results of the enquiry as they were completed.execution. Pour lui donner satisfaction, M. Schanzer To meet this request, M. Schanzer proposed addingpropose d'ajouter a la fin du paragraphe de son at the end of paragraph (e) of his Draft Resolutionprojet de resolution la phrase suivante: the following phrase:

(( Que le Secretariat soit autoris.e a publier, " The Secretariat should be authorised toavec le consentement de la Commission tempo- publish from time to time, with the consentraire mixte et du Conseil, des rapports sur les of the Temporary Mixed Commission and of theresultats partiels de l'enqute, sans attendre Council, reports on the partial results of itsl'accomplissement integral des operations de re- investigations till the results of the statisticallevement statistique. enquiry had been fully co-ordinated."

Les observations que Lord Robert Cecil a pre- The remarks which Lord Robert Cecil had madesentees an sujet d'une extension de l'enquete ne font regarding an extension of the enquiry merely empha-que souligner'les idees qui out ete exposees a la sised the ideas which had been expressed on page 6page 6 du rapport de la Commission mixte: of the Mixed Commission's Report:

((Un accord general sur la reduction des arme- " A general agreement on the subject of thements devrait attribuer a chaque Etat une force reduction of armaments ought to assign to eachmilitaire suffisante pour le maintien de l'ordre State a military force sufficient both to maintaina l'interieur et pour la defense de son territoire internal order and to defend its territory againstcontre les dangers d'une agression exterieure, the dangers of a foreign aggression, while takingtout en tenant compte de ses conditions geogra- into account the geographical conditions of eachphiques, de la nature de ses frontieres, ainsi que State, the nature of its frontiers, and the neces-de la necessite de de'fendre ses colonies et ses sity for defending its colonies and depen-dependances. ) ' dencies."

Et a la page 7 L'enquete statistique devra relever On page 7: the statistical enquiry should alicitle nombre de soldats en temps de paix information on the number of soldiers in time of

peace:

(( Les effectifs, y compris les corps speciale- " effectives (including corps specially employedment affectes au maintien de l'ordre public et in the maintenance of public order) and thele nombre d'unites pour les armees de terre et de number of units'in the land and sea forces, bothmer, mltropolitaine et coloniale, en indiquant home and colonial, showing the effectives main-les effectifs qui correspondent: tained for

a) a des obligations militaires; (a.) Military obligations.b) a Ia securite nationale.)) (b) National defence."

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Les memes idees sont exprimees au paragraphe d) The same applied to (d) of the Draft Kesolution.du projet de resolution (Annexe I5). MI. Lange a (Annex 15.) M. Lange had 'enquired whether itdemande s'il ne serait pas opportun d'introduire dans wouki not be opportune to introduce into the draftle projet une note au sujet des industries de paix a note on the subject of peace industries whichsusceptibles d'etre utilisees pendant la guerre, might be used in time of war.

M. Schanzer lui repond que cette question a ete M. Schanzer replied that this question had beenlaissee de cote volontairement par la Commission deliberately shelved by the Mixed Commission, sincemixte, car c'est surtout en temps de guerre que ces it is particularly in war, time.that industries expand.industries prennent une grande extension.

Enfin, l'observation de M. Lange sur les annees Further, M. Lange's observations on the financialbudgetaires des differents pays est une question d'u:u years of the vario.us countries were of a technicalcaractere technique qui regarde les methodes statis. nature, since they dealt with statistical methods.tiques et qui devra etre reservee aux techniciens; This question would have to be submitted to tech-mais la Commission ne doit pas en meconnaitre l'im- nical experts, but the Committee should not ignoreportance. its importance.

Le Marquis de MAGAZ (Espagne) se demande The Marquis de MAGAZ (Spain) wondered whypourquoi l'enquete est si limitee. Ii est d'avis the enquiry was so restricted in scope. He wasqu'elle devrait porter sur toutes les industries qui of opinion that it should extend to all industriessont susceptibles ,d'etre utilisees pendant la guerre. which are liable -to be used in time of war. HeC'est pourquoi il demande que toute liberte soit therefore requested that full liberty should be' leftlaissee a la Commission pour amplifier les donnees to the Commission to amplify any data which theyqu'elle jugera utiles. might consider useful.

M. FISHER (Empire britannique) fait remarquer Mr. FISHER (British Empire) observed that itque ce serait une erreur de donner une portee plu.n would be a mistake to extend the scope of the ques-large au questionnaire. II est d'avis qu'il importe tionnaire. He was of opinion that the importantsurtout de savoir dans quelle mesure les armements point was to ascertain to what :extent armamentspeuvent etre reduits. could be reduced.

Quant au point souleve par Lord Robert Cecil Although he considered the question raised bybien que M. Fisher le trouve interessant et ne voie Lord Robert Cecil as very interesting, and saw noaucune objection a apporter un amendemient au objection to introducing an amendment to M.projet de M. Schanzer, il est neanmoins tres scepti- Schanzer's draft, he was very sceptical as to theque sur les reponses des Gouvernements a ce sujet. replies likely to be given by the Governments on

this subject. .

Le PRESIDENT constate que la Commission est The CHAIRMAN stated that the Committeed'accord sur le projet de M. Schanzer, modifie par agreed to accept M. Schanzer's draft as modified byLord Robert Cecil. Lord Robert Cecil.

M. MOTTA (Suisse) remercie M. Schanzer du MI. MOTTA (Switzerland) thanked M. Schanzer fortravail precis qu'il presente a la Commission et se the accurate work which he had laid before the Com-felicite de ce que le President ait designe Lordc mittee, and expressed his pleasure at the appoint-Robert Cecil comme rapporteur. ment of Lord Robert Cecil as Rapporteur.

En ce qui concerne les suggestions de Lord Robert As regards Lord Robert Cecil's suggestion, heCecil, il fait remarquer qu'il n'est peut-etre pas observed that it would not perhaps be necessary tonecessairee d emander aux Etats de determiner la request the States; to define which part .of theirpart de leurs armements consacres. a la protectionl armamnents was designed for protection against exter-exterieure. C'est une question delicate qui pourrait nal aggression. This was a delicate question whichavoir une repercussion politique. might have political consequences.

I1 propose done d'ajouter au paragraphe d) .le He proposed, therefore, to add to paragraph (d) thetexte suivant qui donnerait satisfaction a Lord Ro- following words, which would probably satisfy Lordbert Cecil: Robert Cecil .

" Les gouvernements sont pries d'indiquer "The Governments should be requested toseparement quelles sont les forces de policae et indicate separately the police and military forcesmilitaires qu'ils estiment indispensables pour which they consider indispensable for the pre-,leur securite interieure et les depenses y rela- servation of domestic order and the expendituretives )). entailed thereby."

Ce.texte est adopte. This text was adopted.

M. POULLET (Belgique) aurait une observation M'. POULLET (Belgium) -wished to make obser-a.faire au sujet du preambule, mais comme le pream- vations on the subject of the Preamble, but, as tlebule sera discute plus tard, il ajourne son observa- Preamble was to be discussed later, he, agreed totion. ' postpone his remarks.

La seance est levee a I2 h. 15. The meeting rose at I2.15 P.m.

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SEPTIEME SEANCE SEVENTH MEETING

Tenue le 21 septembre 1921, a 15 h. 30. field on September 2!st, 1921, at 3.30 p.m.

M. BRANTING, President, M. BRANTING, in the Chair.

20. COMMUNICATION DU PRiSIDENT 20. STATEMENT BY THEB CHAIRMAN

Le PRISIDENT attire l'attention de la Commis- The CHAIRMAN drew the attention of the Com-sion sur les documents suivants qui ont ete distri- nrittee to the following documents, which had beenbuess:- la nouvelle redaction :de l'article 16 du Pacte distributed The new draft of Article. 6 of the Cove-pre-paree par le Comite' de redaction nomnme a nant prepared by the- Drafting Committee appointedseance du 9I septembre (Annexe i6); une autre at the meeting on September :9 th (Annex 16);r6daction du meme article proposee par 1. Fisher another draft of the same Article suggested by(Annexe 17) et le rapport de TM. Schanzer sur l'arme Mr. Fisher (Annexe 17), and M. Schanzer' report oneconomique (Annexe 18). the economic weapon (Annex I8).

Le President propose de commencer la discussion The Chairman proposed that the discussion shouldpar I:'examen des deux formes de l'article i6 pr6sen- open with the examination of the two drafts oftees a la Commission, Article I6 which had been laid before the Com-

mittee.

21. MOTION D'ORDRE 21. POINT OF ORDER.

M- . SCHANZER (Italie), s'etonie que le nouveau M. SCHANZER (Italy) expressed surprise thattexte de M. Fisher differe si considerablement du Mr. Fisher's new text differed so markedly from thetexte propose par le Comite de r6daction dont text proposed by the Drafting Committee, of whichM. Fisher lui-melme faisait partie. II demande a Mr, Fisher himself had-been a Member. He askedM. Fisher pourquoi il a supprime tout amendement Mr. Fisher why he had suppressed any amendmentau premier alinea et le paragraphe concernant le of the first paragraph and also the paragraph withcalcul de-l'unanimite. regard to what should be regarded as constituting

unanimity.

M.ISH (mpire britannie) rpond u' FISHER (British Empire) replied that its'agit d'une erreur d'impression. arose from a printer's error.

Le PRISIDENT propose de commencer la dis- The CHAIRMAN proposed to begin. the discus-cussion 'en prenant pour base le projet de M. Fisher. sion by taking Mr. Fisher's draft as a basis.

La proposition est adoptee, . This proposal was adopted.

22. NOUVELLE RBIDACTION 22. NEW DRAFT .OF ARTICLE 16DE L'ARTICLE 16 DU PACTE OF THE COVENANT.

M, FISHER (Empire britannique) explique que Mr. FISHER (British Empire) explained that thel'objet de son amendement a ete de reproduire object of his amendment had been to have the1'essence du texte de M. Poullet, accepte comme substance of M. Poullet's text, with some improve-recommandation par la Commission (voir Annexe 7) ment, accepted as a recommendation by the Con-tout en y apportant quelques ameliorations. mittee (see Annex 7).

Tout d'abord, l'amendement lui semble mieux To begin with, it seemed to him that the amend-place apres le premier alin6a qu'a l'int6rieur du troi- ment would be better placed after the first para-

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sieile alinea qui fait suite au paragraphe concernallt graph than in the middle othe third paragraph; ,leaction militaire. which follows the paragraph dealing with military

action.Puis, le texte qu'il propose fait clairement res- Moreover, the text which he proposed clearly

sortir que l'initiative de l'ajournement appartient au brought out the fact that the initiative for any post-Conseil et que le delai d'ajournelent doit etre ponement rested with the Council, and that thelimite. period of such postponement must be limited.

Enfin, le nouveau texte evite le risque que le Finally, the new text obviated any danger of theConseil puisse etre considere comme un belligerant Council's being 'considered as a belligerant carryingexecutant un plan d'action. out a campaign.

L'orateur se declare pret a accepter la collabora- Mr. Fisher declared his readiness to accepttion de la Commission pour arriver a une meilleure the co-operation of the Committee, in order to arriveredaction. at a better text.

M. ILANGE (Norvege) demande ququeues prci- M. LANGE (Norway) asked Mr. Fisher for cer-sions a M. Fisher au sujet des modifications a tain particulars regarding the changes required inapporter a son texte pour corriger les suites de his text in order to correct the consequences of thel'erreur qu'il vient de relever. M. Lange a compris error to which he had just drawn attention.que l'amendement au premier alinea se trouvant M. Lange understood that. the amendment to thedans le texte de la Sous-Commission, doit etre consi- first paragraph, which was included in the Sub-dere comme faisant partie du texte dei M.: Fisher. Committee's text, ought to be considered as forming

part of Mr. Fisher's text.Quant au paragraphe 4 de l'article i6, tel qu'il With regard to paragraph 4 of Article I6 as it

avait lete rredige par le Comite de redaction, had been drawn up by the Drafting Committee,M. Lange se demande s'il est necessaire de deter- M. Lange wished to know if it was necessary to layminer le mode de calculer les voix; l'unanimite est down a method of reckoning the votes ; unanimitypen importante ici, puisque la question de savoir s'il was of small importance in the matter, since they a rupture de Pacte doit etre resolue en dernier lieu question whether there had been a breach of thepar chaque ILtat. II demande donel que la suppres- Covenant must be settled in the last resort by eachsion du paragraphe soit maintenue. State. He therefore asked that the deletion of the

paragraph should be insisted upon.

Lord Robert CECII (Afriquedu Sud) declare qu'il Lord Robert CECII (South Africa) stated thatprefere, en general, la formule... alinea... de he preferred, generally speaking, the formula ofl'amendement Fisher a la formule correspondante paragraph 2 of the Fisher amendment to the cor:du Comite de redaction. Cependant, il serait d'avis responding formula submitted by the Draftingde supprimer la premiere phrase de la formule de Committee. However, he thought they ought toM. Fisher; elle donne, en effet, l'impression qu'il suppress the first sentence of Mr. Fisher's formula,appartiendrait au Conseil de decider si les sanctions as it conveyed the impression that it would be foreconomiques doivent etre mises en vigueur. Lord the Council to decide whether the economic sanc-Robert Cecil Idemande, en outre, la suppression, tions should be put into force. Lord Robert Cecildans le paragraphe 3 du texte Fisher, des mots (( en further asked that the words " in that case, " whichce cas)) ,qui ne s'accordent pas avec l'ensemble du did not agree with the general tenour of the text,texte. Enfin, il est pret a accepter la proposition de should be deleted from paragraph 3 of the FisherM. Lange, de supprimer le paragraphe 4. En tout text. Finally, he was ready to consent to M. Lange'scas, si le paragraphe etait insere dans le texte de proposal to delete paragraph 4. In any case, if thatM. Fisher, il faudrait y ajouter quelques mots d'in- paragraph were inserted in Mr. Fisher's text, ittroduction pour exprimer l'idee que le Conseil doit would be necessary to add a few words by way ofemettre un avis, idee qui se trouve nulle part ailleurs introduction, in order to give expression to the ideadans l'article I6. that the Council must pronounce an opinion, as this

was not elsewhere expressed in Article I6.

M. SCHANZER (Italie) se rallie a la redaction M. SCHANZER (Italy) supported the wordingdu second paragraphe de M. Fisher; elle ne pre- of Mr. Fisher's second paragraph as presenting nosente pas, en effet, de difference de fond avec l'amen- fundamental inconsistency with the amendment putdement propose par le Comite de redaction. forward by the Drafting Committee.

II est egalement de l'avis de Lord Robert Cecil He also shared Lord Robert Cecil's view that thepour omettre la premiere phrase du paragraphe 2 et first sentence of paragraph 2 should be omitted asles mots (( en ce cas )) dans le paragraphe 3. well as the words " in that case " in paragraph 3.

En ce qui concerne la suppression du paragra- He was not, however, in agreement with the pre-phe 4 du texte du Comite ode redaction, M. Schanzer vious speakers as regards the deletion of paragraph 4n'est, par contre, pas d'accord avec les orateurs of the Drafting Committee's text. He felt that itqui lont precede. I lui semble necessaire d'etablir was essential to lay down that the votes of theque les voix de l'Etat accuse et de l'Etat accusateur accusing State and of the State accused should notne compteront pas dans le-calcul de l'unanimite, cc count as affecting unanimity, and that to do thisqui est parfaitement possible, puisque l'article i5 a was perfectly possible since Article 15 had contem-prevu un cas analogue. plated an analogous case.

I1 pense qu'il serait facile de donner satisfaction He thought that is. would be easy to meet Lordh Lord Robert Cecil en modifiant comme suit le Robert Cecil's wishes by modifying the openingdebut du paragraphe: sentences of the paragraph as follows-

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" Le Conseil emet un avis sur la question de savoir T he Council shall pron.once an opinin

s'il y a ou non rupture du Pacte. Quand le Conseil to whether or not there has been a breach of the

emet un .avis, les voix.... ) . Covenant. When the Council pronounces suchan opinion the votes...

Cependant, l'orateur pourrait se rallier a l'avis Nevertheless, M. Schanzer would be able to sup-

de la Commission, si elle insistait pour que le para- port the Committee's view if it insisted upon the

graphe 4 fat supprime. deletion of paragraph 4.

Le PR]CSIDENT resume les debats. Il lui semble The CHAIRMAN summed up the discussion. It

que la Commission consent a adopter le texte de appeared to him that the Committee was willing to

M. Fisher avec les modifications suivantes: adopt Mr. Fisher's text with the following modifica-tions

a) Substituer au premier paragraphe le paragraphe (a) To substitute for the first paragraph the corres-

correspondant du texte du Comite de redaction; ponding paragraph of the Drafting Committee's text.

b) Supprimer la premiere phrase de l'alinea 2; (b) To delete the first sentence in paragraph 2.

c) Supprimer les mots ( en ce cas)) dans l'alinea 3; (c) To delete the words " in that case " in para-graph 3.

d) L'alinea 4 du texte du Comite4 de redaction -a (d) Paragraph 4 of the Drafting Committee's text

6te. vote et ne peut, par consequent, etre supprim6 had been carried, and, therefore, could not be deleted

qu'en vertu d'un nouveau vote unanime. except on a further unanimous'vote.

M. FISHER (Empire britannique) declared'abord Mr. FISHER (British Empire) began by stating

que les omissions que l'on a remarquees dans son that he and not the Secretariat was responsible for

texte sont dues u li-mnme et non pas au Secretariat the omissions which had been noticed in his text and

a qui ii prexsente ses excuses. I1 declare ensuite that he apologised to the Secretariat. He then stated

accepter les modifications proposees a son texte, that he accepted the proposed amendments to his

mais demande que, conformementa i ladecision de la text but asked that, in accordance with the Cormn

Commission, le paragraphe 4 du texte du Comit6 de mittee's decision, paragraph 4 of the Drafting Com-

redaction soit conside6r comme faisant partie, dans mittee's text should be regarded as forming part of

la noiuvelle raction de M. Schanzer, du texte de M. Schanzer's new text, and that the following

M. Fisher, et que les mots suivants soient ajoutes au .words should be added at the beginning of para-

debut du paragraphe 2 pour servir de base au para- graph 2 in order tp serve as a basis for para-

graphe 4: graph 4:

(( Le Conseil de la Societ6 decidera si une " The Council of the League shall decide

rupture du Pacte a eu lieu ou non, necessitant whether or not there has been a breach of the

l'application des mesures enonces ci-dessus. )) Covenant calling for the bringing into operationof the above measures."

M. REYNALD (France) constate que le texte de M. REYNALD (France) called attention to the

M. Fisher s'eloigne considerablement de la resolu- fact that Mr. Fisher's text showed considerable

tion votee par la Coinmission. La Commission s'etait departures from the resolution voted by the Com-

trouvee d'accord pour reconnaitre que l'ajournement mittee. The Committee had agreed in recognising

de l'application des sanctions ne pourrait etre decide that any postponement in putting the sanctions into

que dans l'interet general et en raison du but a effect could be decided upon only in the general inte-

atteindre. Dans le texte Fisher; a ce motif d'ajour- rest and having regard to the object to be achieved.

nement en est ajoute un second en raison des diffi- According to Mr. Fisher's text, regard for the diffi-

cults qui pourraient surgir pour certains membres. culties which might arise for certain. Members might

Cette nouvelle clause affaiblit considerablement la constitute a second reason for such postponement.

portee de l'arme economique. C'est pourquoi This new clause very much weakened the force of

M.Reynald tient a faire au proces-verbal des reserves the economic weapon, and that was why M. Rey-

formelles d ce sujet au nom du. :Gouvernement nald flet that he must make a formal reservation in

fran"ais. . the Minutes on this point on behalf of the FrenchGovernment.

Le PRESIMDNT fait remarquer a M. Reyhald The CHAIRMAN pointed out to M. Reynald that

que la clause en question se trouve dejja dans le the clause in question was already included in the

texte vote par la Commission. text carried by the Committee.

Lord Robert CECIL (Afrique du Sud) espere que Lord Robert CECIL (South Africa) hoped that

M. Fisher n'insister s sa pa proposition qu'il a Mr. Fisher would not insist upon his proposal to

faite de stipuler, au debut de l'alinea 2, que le stipulate at the beginning of paragraph 2that the

Conseil doit avoir le droit de decider s'il y a ou non Council should have the right to decide whether or

rupture de Pacte. not there had been a breach of the Covenant.

Quant aux observations de M. Reynald, Lord As to M. Reynald's remarks, Lord Robert Cecil

Robert Cecil se declare dispose, pour sa part, a sup- stated that he, for his part, was ready to delete the

primer la clause incriminee si, comme l'a dit le Pr6- clauses to which objection had been taken if, as the

sident, la Commission veut revenir snr la decision Chairman had said, the Committee would reconsider

qu'elle a prise a cet egard. the decision taken in this matter.

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