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sign up log in tour help Take the 2minute tour × Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for electronics and electrical engineering professionals, students, and enthusiasts. It's 100% free, no registration required. Can power theft on a large scale be stopped Reading article, I started wondering if there is any way to stop people stealing electricity from a power grid. Let me clarify, the only techniques I have seen (and can think of) is either to this 1. rely on an honor system where you trust people not to steal and pay for all the power they consume 2. or have visual inspections where a power company just sends its people out they look for illegal hookups and then either just disconnecting them and/or legal action against the thieves. For the second case, as the article says, power company employees cut the hookups and then the hookups are back up again in five minutes and legal action of any kind is useless and hopeless thanks to massive corruption at all levels. My question here is, is there any method or technique based on principles of electromagnetism/electrical engineering/grid designing that can prevent/minimize such theft or even detect such theft like where it is happening or who is doing it? Is there anyway to localize it and then cut only the thieves instead of an entire neighborhood including innocents who are not stealing at all? Can a power grid be designed (from scratch if needed) to help with this? Can at least the theft be made so difficult or expensive that it won't be worthwhile for people to steal it? I understand that security of any kind is a difficult problem and no matter what the system, there is always a way to break it. But in this police/legal action is absolutely useless so how can power distribution be made that it is beyond the scope/ability/affordability of an average citizen to just brazenly and easily steal all the power they want. Thank you. secure enough powerdistribution powerconsumption edited Jul 1 '13 at 3:47 asked Jul 1 '13 at 3:35 Fixed Point 121 4 1 – In my opinion, a technological solution is useless in a country where kidnapping, murder, and corruption are the norm. Any security system can be breached by corrupt or extorted operators. As many security experts frequently say, the weakest link is the human. I cannot envision a security system that will work for this scenario, but even if there was one it would fail because the people themselves will fail. BTW: I didn't downvote. user3624 Jul 1 '13 at 3:52 1 – @FixedPoint In the United States, power theft does happen particularly with Marijuana grow houses, where a "legal power bill" would be many thousands of dollars a month and would attract lots of attention. As I said before, I cannot envision any security system that would work in any practical sense. I also do not know of any system other than "monitor the power and find leaks". user3624 Jul 1 '13 at 4:02 1 – What about the impedance of the line? Would it be possible to determine where a device was connected without knowledge of the characteristics of the device? How about if voltage/current sensors were finely distributed throughout the line? trav1s Jul 1 '13 at 4:05 2 – Suppose that all legitimate meters are smart and they can convey minutebyminute usage back to the base (in real time or not). If the amount of power (I'm using this term loosely) going into the branch is larger than the total of the meters, than there is a leak. Nick Alexeev ♦ Jul 1 '13 at 4:41 2 – Reduce the size of the power distribution company to that of a community small enough that the thief is known to the community. This could be done by metering the total power delivered to each small community, as well as each customer in it. If the total power delivered is higher than the total of each customer's, there is a thief in the community. Let them (the community) know, raise their bill, and let them ferret out the culprit. Bobbi Bennett Jul 1 '13 at 12:59 2 Answers An "honour system" or visual inspections are not the only two options. Detecting tappingoff points is possible using a (TDR). This is a measurement instrument that uses transmission line physics to determine locations and types of "impedance discontinuities" (such as illegal taps) on a transmission line. time domain reflectometer Operating principle TDRs work by sending a "ping" of energy into a transmission line and watching the "echoes" that come back. The transmission line can be an optical transmission line (i.e. an optical fibre) or, in our case, an electrical transmission line (a overhead power line or underground power cable.) This works because signals will A "discontinuity" in this case could be the end of the line (open circuit, short circuit, or partially or fully reflect off any discontinuity in a transmission line.

Can Power Theft on a Large Scale Be Stopped - Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange

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  • 6/2/2015 CanpowertheftonalargescalebestoppedElectricalEngineeringStackExchange

    http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/74561/canpowertheftonalargescalebestopped 1/3

    signup login tour help

    Takethe2minutetour ElectricalEngineeringStackExchangeisaquestionandanswersiteforelectronicsandelectricalengineeringprofessionals,students,andenthusiasts.It's100%free,noregistrationrequired.

    CanpowertheftonalargescalebestoppedReading article,Istartedwonderingifthereisanywaytostoppeoplestealingelectricityfromapowergrid.Letmeclarify,theonlytechniquesIhaveseen(andcanthinkof)iseitherto

    this

    1. relyonanhonorsystemwhereyoutrustpeoplenottostealandpayforallthepowertheyconsume

    2. orhavevisualinspectionswhereapowercompanyjustsendsitspeopleouttheylookforillegalhookupsandtheneitherjustdisconnectingthemand/orlegalactionagainstthethieves.

    Forthesecondcase,asthearticlesays,powercompanyemployeescutthehookupsandthenthehookupsarebackupagaininfiveminutesandlegalactionofanykindisuselessandhopelessthankstomassivecorruptionatalllevels.

    Myquestionhereis,isthereanymethodortechniquebasedonprinciplesofelectromagnetism/electricalengineering/griddesigningthatcanprevent/minimizesuchtheftorevendetectsuchtheftlikewhereitishappeningorwhoisdoingit?Isthereanywaytolocalizeitandthencutonlythethievesinsteadofanentireneighborhoodincludinginnocentswhoarenotstealingatall?Canapowergridbedesigned(fromscratchifneeded)tohelpwiththis?Canatleastthetheftbemadesodifficultorexpensivethatitwon'tbeworthwhileforpeopletostealit?

    Iunderstandthatsecurityofanykindisadifficultproblemandnomatterwhatthesystem,thereisalwaysawaytobreakit.Butinthispolice/legalactionisabsolutelyuselesssohowcanpowerdistributionbemade thatitisbeyondthescope/ability/affordabilityofanaveragecitizentojustbrazenlyandeasilystealallthepowertheywant.Thankyou.

    secureenough

    powerdistribution powerconsumption

    editedJul1'13at3:47 askedJul1'13at3:35FixedPoint121 4

    1

    Inmyopinion,atechnologicalsolutionisuselessinacountrywherekidnapping,murder,andcorruptionarethenorm.Anysecuritysystemcanbebreachedbycorruptorextortedoperators.Asmanysecurityexpertsfrequentlysay,theweakestlinkisthehuman.Icannotenvisionasecuritysystemthatwillworkforthisscenario,buteveniftherewasoneitwouldfailbecausethepeoplethemselveswillfail.BTW:Ididn'tdownvote. user3624 Jul1'13at3:52

    1

    @FixedPointIntheUnitedStates,powertheftdoeshappenparticularlywithMarijuanagrowhouses,wherea"legalpowerbill"wouldbemanythousandsofdollarsamonthandwouldattractlotsofattention.AsIsaidbefore,Icannotenvisionanysecuritysystemthatwouldworkinanypracticalsense.Ialsodonotknowofanysystemotherthan"monitorthepowerandfindleaks". user3624 Jul1'13at4:02

    1

    Whatabouttheimpedanceoftheline?Woulditbepossibletodeterminewhereadevicewasconnectedwithoutknowledgeofthecharacteristicsofthedevice?Howaboutifvoltage/currentsensorswerefinelydistributedthroughouttheline? trav1s Jul1'13at4:05

    2

    Supposethatalllegitimatemetersaresmartandtheycanconveyminutebyminuteusagebacktothebase(inrealtimeornot).Iftheamountofpower(I'musingthistermloosely)goingintothebranchislargerthanthetotalofthemeters,thanthereisaleak. NickAlexeev Jul1'13at4:41

    2

    Reducethesizeofthepowerdistributioncompanytothatofacommunitysmallenoughthatthethiefisknowntothecommunity.Thiscouldbedonebymeteringthetotalpowerdeliveredtoeachsmallcommunity,aswellaseachcustomerinit.Ifthetotalpowerdeliveredishigherthanthetotalofeachcustomer's,thereisathiefinthecommunity.Letthem(thecommunity)know,raisetheirbill,andletthemferretouttheculprit. BobbiBennett Jul1'13at12:59

    2Answers

    An"honoursystem"orvisualinspectionsarenottheonlytwooptions.

    Detectingtappingoffpointsispossibleusinga (TDR).Thisisameasurementinstrumentthatusestransmissionlinephysicstodeterminelocationsandtypesof"impedancediscontinuities"(suchasillegaltaps)onatransmissionline.

    timedomainreflectometer

    Operatingprinciple

    TDRsworkbysendinga"ping"ofenergyintoatransmissionlineandwatchingthe"echoes"thatcomeback.Thetransmissionlinecanbeanopticaltransmissionline(i.e.anopticalfibre)or,inourcase,anelectricaltransmissionline(aoverheadpowerlineorundergroundpowercable.)

    ThisworksbecausesignalswillA"discontinuity"inthiscasecouldbetheendoftheline(opencircuit,shortcircuit,or

    partiallyorfullyreflectoffanydiscontinuityinatransmissionline.

  • 6/2/2015 CanpowertheftonalargescalebestoppedElectricalEngineeringStackExchange

    http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/74561/canpowertheftonalargescalebestopped 2/3

    terminatedinaload),anytappingoffpoint,oranychangeinimpedance.

    TheTDRworksbyanalysingthelengthoftimebetweensendingoutthesignalandreceivingitback,soitcantellyouthephysicaldistancebetweentheinstrumentandthesourceoftheecho.Thiscanbedonetoaprecisionofcentimeters.

    NormalusesofTDRs

    ThemainuseofTDRsistodetectfaultson oropticalfibres.cables

    Saythatelectricwavespropagateat0.66c(~200,000km/sec)youhavea100kilometrelongwire,opencircuitatthefarend.Ifyousendapulsedownoneendofthewire,youwouldexpecttheechoestobounceofftheendofthewireandreturnin1millisecond(200kmroundtripdistance.)

    Ifyousendapulsedownthis100kmwireandthereflectioncomesbackin0.4milliseconds,thistellsyouthatthereisadiscontinuity40%ofthewaydownthewire(i.e.aroundthe40kmmark.)Furtheranalysisofthemagnitudeandshapeoftheechocantellyouwhatkindofdiscontinuityispresentatthatlocation,i.e.acompletebreak,akink,corrosion,

    ,splice,etc.tappingoff

    point

    Thisiswidelyusedintheelectricalindustrytolocatefaultsonlongcables.It'salsousedforthesamepurposeintelecommunications,todiagnosefaultsand(oddlyenough)tolocatesurveillancewiretaps.

    Detectingillegalpowerlinetapoffs

    Apowertransmissionlineobeysthesamephysicalprinciplesasatelecommunicationscableoranopticalfibre,sointheory,TDRcanbeusedtolocateillegaltapoffsfromapowerline.

    Thisideaisn'tnewornovelthereisatleast sellingcommercialproductsthatdetectillegalpowerlinetapsusingthismethod.InotetheMeggerCFL510Ginstrumentisageneralpurposeinstrumentintendedforfaultfindingontelecommunicationsequipmentsoitprobablyrequiresdisconnectionofthemainspowerbeforeuse.

    onemob

    Toansweryouroriginalquestion,IwouldguessthatusingTDRtodetectpowertheftonalargescaleistechnicallypossiblebuttooexpensive.

    ThedistributionauthoritywouldhavetosendmenaroundtoeveryneighbourhoodtoperformperiodicTDRtesting.Youhavetopaytheirwagesandequipment.

    Dependingontheparticularinstrument,usingitmightinvolvedisconnectingtheconsumer'spower.Thiswouldbebothunpopularandexpensive(thedistributioncompanygetspaid$$$basedonhowmanykilowattsyouconsume,anddisconnectedcustomersdon'tconsumeanykilowatts!)

    Thevastmajorityofpeopleprobablyaren'tstealingpower,soyouhavetobalancethecostoffindingthepowerthievesvs.thecostoftheelectricitytheyarestealing.

    answeredSep10'13at12:46LiaungYip4,603 7 30

    Onemoreorlesspracticalwaywouldbetosupplyhighvoltage(say6kilovolts)asclosetotheconsumeraspossibleandconvertittomainsvoltagethere.

    Forexample thatistypicalinNorthAmericaandisratedat200Amps(presumablyat110voltsandthatgets22kilowattswhichisfinefor210households).Itisinstalledrightinfrontofahouseitserves,thenwiresruntothehouseortwoorthreenearbyhouses.Smallertransformersarepossible.Thearticleyoulinkedtoalsoshowedapolemountedtransformerbutthatoneismuchlargerandsoservesmoreconsumers.

    heregoesa polemountertransformersmall

    Thiswouldassumethatlaymenwouldnotmesswithhighvoltageandalsotheconnectionstosuchtransformersareeasilyvisible.Nowifthegridoperatorfindsabusehecandisconnectonlyoneorseveralconsumers,notaneighborhood.

    Onebonusisthatthisreduceslossessinceonlythelasthundredmetersisatmainsvoltagetheefficiencyisincreased.Thedownsideisthatlowpowertransformersaremoreexpensiveperwattofpowerandyouhavemorehighvoltagewiresaroundthehousesandthismightreducesafetyincaseofaccidents.

    answeredJul1'13at9:52sharptooth4,839 2 32 94

    Thatwouldhelpwithnewhousingestatesbutitcouldbeaproblemtoupgradexsquillionsofmilesoflocaloverheadcablecurrentlysittingon240Vinsulators.You'dstillhavetomonitorn=1billion/peopleperhousehold/householdsperpoletransformersprettyoftentoremovehooksonthelow(er)voltagesideandpossiblystillhavetobribethepolice/politicians/gangs/militiatoenforcethelawand/ortoallowdisconnections. RedGrittyBrick Jul1'13at10:30

  • 6/2/2015 CanpowertheftonalargescalebestoppedElectricalEngineeringStackExchange

    http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/74561/canpowertheftonalargescalebestopped 3/3

    @RedGrittyBrick:Sure,butwhenyouhave220voltsgridforthewholeneighborhoodtheftismucheasier.sharptooth Jul1'13at10:32

    1

    Inmycountryatleast,thisassumptionhasbeenprovenincorrect.Weregularlyhavedeathsofpeopletryingtostealcopperfromautomatedhighvoltagetransformeryardsandrailwaypowerinstallations.

    Thiswouldassumethatlaymenwouldnotmesswithhighvoltage

    AndrejaKo Jul1'13at10:40

    @AndrejaKo:That'sabitdifferenttheyonlyneedtocutthewireandcarryitwiththem,notprovideagoodelectricalconnection. sharptooth Jul1'13at10:46

    Thetinfoilhatcrowdwouldhaveafielddaywiththis. Kaz Jul1'13at13:54

    byDavidKessnerprotected Sep10'13at15:35

    Thankyouforyourinterestinthisquestion.Becauseithasattractedlowqualityanswers,postingananswernowrequires10 onthissite.

    Wouldyouliketoansweroneofthese instead?

    reputation

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