Andy Hunt-Pragmatic Thinking and Learning (Unplugged)

8/7/2019 Andy Hunt-Pragmatic Thinking and Learning (Unplugged)

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PARAMATIC THINKING AND LEARNING (Unplug

A conversation between Andy Hunt & Moe Abd

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Pragmatic Thinking and Learning (Unplugged) Andy Hunt with Moe Abdou !

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About Andy Hunt & Moe AbdouAndy HuntAndy Hunt has been on a quest to discover ways to make softwaredevelopment easier. What he uncovered was an entirely different way tolearn. Andy is a programmer turned consultant, author and publisher. Hehas authored award-winning and best-selling books, including ThePragmatic Programmer and six others, including the his latest, thepopular Pragmatic Thinking and Learning.

Moe AbdouMoe Abdou is the creator of 33voices a global conversation about things

that matter in business and in life. [email protected]

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Andy, as I mentioned to you, Im eternally grateful for the work thatyouve been doing for me personally. At the same time, the more that I seethe evolution of the models that youre creating, the more excited that Iget about learning models that I think could be accessible to entrepreneursand business creators all over the world.

Id like to get your thinking initially on when I look at our society, Ireally get the sense that were becoming more of a regressive as opposedto a progressive learning society. Im curious what you think about ourcollective learning evolution.

First of all, thanks for the glowing words, thats always a great way to start.Im glad to know that Ive been at least somewhat helpful with the writings and

stuff I have produced.

Im sure your question about where society is headed its a really interestinglook because on the one hand, you know there is that wonderful quote by ascience fiction author William Gibson who said, The future is already here, itsjust not very evenly distributed. I think thats very much the case here. There

are some great bright spots.

Weve got children in school. Theyre school age, to see what they are learningwith math and science in particular they are learning much more advancedstuff, at much younger ages than we were exposed to when we were growingup. They are being asked to be much more creative and inventive and a lot less

leaning towards that sort of just parrot the facts back which was very popularfor a very long time. Its just, memorize all these dates, spit it back at us andthat counts as a education. Of course it doesnt. Creativity and invention are

critical to learning and critical to education.

There are certainly some spots where were seeing more of that in theeducational system and even with adult education and thats very encouraging.I like to see that. There are dangers as well. There is a dangerous politicalenvironment of a kind of aggressive anti-intellectualism that seems to be takinghold.

Thats very frightening because in a lot of subcultures in areas in the country,its not cool for kids to be smart. Your peers will ostracize you if you try to besmart or try to be smarter than them and then you see some political figureswho are kind of taking this tact too that smart isnt great. Thats a real dangerbecause thats the kind of thing that takes you back to the Dark Ages if you let

that take hold. So thats kind of the frightening side.

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If you look overall, you know, there are bright spots in education but for themost part, we still dont really do it as well as we could. There is a lot ofresearch from neuroscience and brain physiology and what not that we knowwere aware of, you know, its 10-year-old, 20-year-old research but we dont

take advantage of it.

Some very simple things like they have done studies about teenagers and howthe hormones affect their sleep cycles. So the sort of stereotype of teenagerswanting to sleep in late and stay up all night is not just some kind ofpreference or some kind of thing theyre going through, its actually gotchemical basis. Its what their hormones are doing to them.

Teenagers would learn and be much more effective in school if school startedlater; if it started at 9 or 10 instead of starting at 7 or 8 and went later into theevening. That would match their physical reality much better. But we dont do

that because its not convenient.

Thats the kind of stuff thats really fascinating to me. The more that I seethe work that people like you are doing and the more that I embracemyself just in these studies, it seems like theyre very relevant studies totry to improve our education system as a whole yet it seems like weregoing backwards.

I know its been a few years now since pragmatic thinking came out. Whatare some of the biggest insights that you have gained personally from

people who youre exposed to, who have read the book?

The thing that really strikes me Ive had more people email me with theircomments and their experiences and their thoughts. Ive had more peopleemail me about this book than any other book that Ive written. I have awritten a total of I think 7 or 8 books now. This by far, got the most reaction,at least a more personal reaction from readers.

For the most part, the thing that really impacted them, the thing that reallystruck them was that it was eye opener. That they havent ever thought aboutthese sorts of issues. They hadnt thought about their own learning or theirown thinking.

In a way, thinking is sort of like breathing. You take it for granted. You justsort of do it. You dont actually think about it as itself. Ironically, our naturaltendency is to do both badly. Westerners in particular dont breathe aseffectively as you should which affects cognition because youre not getting as

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much oxygen as you should when you should. We dont think about thinking asmuch.

Most people would right in, theyre like, this is incredible because I wouldnever even considered this realm of study that these ideas, you know, the fact

that you can do stuff to make it better, to make it more effective. There arethings you can do to sabotage your thinking and your learning that we do bydefault and didnt even know about.

So just opening up the awareness to this whole field, I think has been thebiggest impact that this book has had on readers that they have shared with me.

What do you know today that you didnt five years ago about how thebrain works? I know this entire field of neuroscience is probably advancingmore than a whole lot of other scientific fields nowadays.

Its interesting because I mean, sure there is a lot of new little discoveriesbeing made constantly. Every time you pick up something like ScientificAmerica or anyone of the online sites that supplies these sorts of things. There

are all kinds of neat new little discoveries that theyre making.

The funny thing is the tremendous ones dont usually arrive with much fanfarebecause you know, whats that great lineits like great discoveries are neverheralded with eureka. Its always, Oh, thats peculiar. You find that peoplesay, I wonder what that means. There will be stuff 5-10 years from now,

well look back and say, Wow, that was the discovery that opened up thiswhole thing and now its just like, Huh, thats kind of strange.

There are certainly growing interest and appreciation for neuroplasticity forthe idea that the brain is constantly rewiring and reconfiguring itself. For many,many years, it was thought that you had a fixed number of neurons in the brainthat you couldnt grow new neural tissue and that was, you know, you had

what you had and that was the end of it. It turns out thats not true.

You can grow new neurons all the time if there is a reason for it. If youre in asensory rich environment and youre doing something that needs it, your brain

will rewire itself. If youre in a drab grey cubicle without much stimulationthen you wont grow new gray matter because you dont need it.

There has been growing interest in just how flexible the brain is in rewiringitself and thats been really fascinating. They have done things where theyhave taken a video camera and wired it to the back of some guys tongue whowas blind. Wire the camera to his tongue and his brain rewired itself to pass

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that information up as imaging information so he could see well enough todrive a car through cones in a parking lot.

Amazing.

Stuff like that is just its absolutely incredible. So it turns out not only can yourewire your brain to suit the task at hand, but that actually happens fairlyconstantly.

If youre a musician for instance, and you play scales as a warm up, assomething to do, youll have areas of your brain so devoted to playing scalesthe non-musician wont have. It just wires itself because thats what youredoing. Whichever youre doing the most of, it will wire it to support that.

They have done studies to show that just thinking about it mental practice is

just as good as physical practice. They did a study with piano players, Olympicathletes use this, and mentally will sort of figure, you know, pretend theyregoing down there ski, run or their luge run or whatever their sport is.

They have done functional MRIs to show that you get the same changes in thebrain whether you physically go through the practice regimen or you simplyimagine youre going through the practice regimen which is absolutelyincredible to me because that leads you to the point where what you think andhow you think it causes physical and chemical changes in the brain.

You can actually rewire your brain just by thinking about it effectively, which isjust stunning when you realize the implications of that. This comes out at allkinds of interesting places. Yes they do studies about this and they have shownthis under laboratory conditions but then weird things kind of pop out of thesides.

For instance, there is a problem in the pharmaceutical industry where typicallypart of the scientific process when you try out a new drug, youll have acontrol group where you give them a placebo, an inert pretend medicine sothat the subject doesnt know if they are getting the real drug that youretesting or not. You can use that as a control group.

The problem is they found in a lot of cases the patients who were given theplacebo got well too. And in many cases, actually showed greater improvementat whatever condition they were trying to treat than the new experimentaldrugs that they were testing. Again, this is one of those, Thats peculiar. Howcan that be?

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It turns out its the same sort of thing, your brain thinks that the placebo isgoing to help rid you of disease and these are physical diseases. These arentjust mental issues. These are cancers. These are ulcers. These are actualphysical things.

But if your brain is convinced that this will help, it will rewire itself, send outthe right hormones, play with the T cells, do whatever I dont know whatsinvolved but whatever it does, the brain can heal the body based basically juston a suggestion.

Thats amazing to me. I know that, as an avid sports fan, we hear a lotabout it, we see it all the time in athletes as you mentioned this wholevisualization game and the ability to rewire their thinking. The thingthats most surprising to me, if that truly is an option for all of us and wehave the ability as you have mentioned, that our thinking ultimately

becomes thoughts.

Its just surprising to me why more of society doesnt understand that anddoesnt take advantage of creating more optimistic lives for themselvesand becoming more smarter as individuals and doing just those tiny thingsthat you have mentioned that could have a dramatic impact on their life.

It is absolutely amazing. The problem is the flipside, the converse, is true aswell. If you dwell on negativity, and negative thoughts, and negativeprojections, and negative fantasies or what might happen, that has an impact

too, a very detrimental impact. The knife cuts both ways.

It sounds a little Peter Pan-nish, you know, you think happy thoughts you canfly and if you think really bad thoughts, you can literally give yourself ulcers,and cancers and whatever else. That seems to be a good bit of how it works.

Andy, is there any studies that you have been privy to that maybe leads usto think that as human beings, were wired more to think negatively andcautiously as we are more optimistically and boldly.

I can certainly see there being a bit of an evolutionary advantage there. If you

go back to a more primal state where youre running around in the jungles,there is a real possibility of a tiger or something jumping out at you. Thats avery different context, a very different environment than sitting in an office.You see this a lot when they talk about studies with stress and fighting stressand these sorts of things. We are really wired for action.

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When you get, an upsetting email comes in. Youve got a mad customer or theIRS has discovered some discrepancy or whatever else. You get some emailthats panicking you, putting you into a panic. The way your brain responds isto shutdown unnecessary features like higher order thinking.

Its going from the basis, okay, youre scared that the adrenaline is runningwhile you must be in the jungle and there is something ready to pounce on you.So divert all the blood flow to your legs, shut off the stomach, shut off thehigher thinking and book it so you dont get eaten. Okay, fine. Thats a greatresponse if youre in that context of jungle life or death situation. Youresitting working in an office in a cubicle at your desk with your email, shuttingoff the thinking is a very bad physical response.

They have actually done some really interesting studies on the pressure fromdeadlines. You dont need to have a tiger jump out at you to shutdown your

thinking. The pressure of a deadline with serious consequences will do thesame thing. So if its the night before a deadline and youre rushing franticallyto get it finished, if youre panicked about it, you know, the stakes are highand you have concerns over this, your brain will actively shut off the higherorder thinking.

You will be dumber the night before a deadline than you were the week beforeor the week after or whatever. Its the worst time to try to think and becreative and inventive because your mind is working against you.

Thats fascinating. It really is fascinating. It really does validate a lot ofthe thinking of trying to calm your mind on a regular basis so whensituations like that occur, the surprise doesnt lead you to those types ofmethods.

Exactly. Its interesting to me to see things like training in yoga and meditationtechniques and these sorts of things. There was an article several years agonow where one of the Fortune 500 companies started paying for in-house yogasessions for their employees because they had read a study that said thatwould help lower healthcare costs. Of course, anyone will do anything to lowerhealthcare costs so theyre like, yeah, bring it on. Apparently, that went verywell for them.

People, we have this industrialized mindset that well that cant possibly help.Its not a machine, its not a drug. Its something kind of soft and easy thatcouldnt possibly be as good as something more serious, something moreindustrialized. Its an unfortunate bias that creeps into a lot of this stuff wheremany times, you have to let go of a problem to solve it. You have to do

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something easier to solve a more complex problem. Its not intuitive and wedont go for it that way but often thats the right answer.

Its interesting because you talk about even just like problem solving, right.Suppose you got some very complex problems and youre trying to simplify

them and solve them. The mathematician I always get his name wrongbecause hes French Henri Poincare had this technique where he would takesome complex proof he was trying to solve. He would break it down in partsand get to a part where he was stuck and he had no answer for it.

As he described it, he would hold that bit of the problem in his mind but let goof it. Dont think so hard. Dont over think it. Dont struggle to, in an industrialsense, bang out a solution but just hold the idea lightly in his head and then gofor a walk. He would go out for a walk and halfway through, it would pop intohis mind and say, Oh, thats what the answer is. He would run back to his

office jot down a nice a little bit and then move on to the next one and do thesame thing.

As it turns out, a lot of really good problem solving ability lies in our kind ofpreconscious mechanisms in the brain. You have to give them sort of enoughairspace for them to work. I ask programmers this all the time. I say, if yourestuck on a hard problem youre trying to debug or a hard architectural issueand youre sitting there banging at the computer and youre stuck, whathappens? You give up, you go to lunch, you leave for the day, youre halfwaydown the hall and what happens? Bang! The answer pops into your head. Its

because you are away from the computer, youre walking, youre strengtheningdifferent sensory input. Youre not just sitting there at the computer.

There is a bit of a problem when youre sitting at the computer and you arefaced with the keyboard and youre typing letters and reading letters. Yourelocking your mental processes into a particular mode that blocks creativethinking.

So when youre stuck on a problem, the worst place you can be is in front ofthe computer. At least, in what we have seen as a traditional computer up tonow with keyboards and symbolic representation back and forth that locks yourbrain in this particular mode.

You get up, you go for a walk, you go running, you go to the gym, you go whipup an omelet, whatever one does for relaxation and then suddenly the answerpops into your head because you have given room for those preconscious

processes to work on the problem and toss it up to you.

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I would say this kind of stuff has got to keep you everyday pretty engagedbecause its not only very, very interesting work but its almost to thepoint where its essential work. Do think strategically, we can rewire ourbrains to get smarter?

Absolutely. Folks who are very smart, or recognized internationally as expertsin their field have done exactly that. It takes time and it takes deliberatepractice. Thats kind of a loaded phrase. We have always had the joke that alot programmers, say they have 10 years experience and it was really one yearof experience repeated nine times which doesnt count.

You have to very deliberately with whatever your skill is, whatever youredoing, whatever youre learning, whatever your profession is, you do somethingthat you know works, you take note of that, it fails, you figure out why. Youcorrect your performance and you do it again.

This constant cycling of deliberately practicing, failing, fixing, and doing itagain, you do that for enough hours and you are grooving the brain, youresetting up your mental processes, youre getting to the point where you will be

an absolute expert in it.

If you look back at folks who do think came out of nowhere, that didnt gothrough this process, you look at Mozart or The Beatles or anyone like this.They didnt pop on the scene overnight. If you look back at Mozart, there was agood 10-year period from when he sort of started before he actually had it

together. You look at his very earliest things that he composed from his,what4, 5, 6, something like that. Yeah, he did it but they werent great. Itwas 10 years before he hit the greatness.

You look at The Beatles. You think, they burst on the scene at the time sort ofrevolutionary sound in music but they have been playing in night clubs for 10years before that, honing it, practicing it, changing it, fixing it, doing what youneed to do.

There is a realm of study that suggests you need the sort of equivalent of 10years of deliberate practice to go from novice to expert in a given field. But ithas to be that very deliberate practice because what youre doing is you areactively rewiring the brain. You have built a mental model.

Youre trying something out and it doesnt work then you fix it. You try it again.You adjust the model in your head. Youre physically adjusting the connectionsand the topology of your brain as youre doing this - you are wiring yourself forsuccess. It takes awhile to get to a world class level it takes 10 years maybe

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but it absolutely can be done. There might be ways we can speed that up withmore research that gets done.

Youre a programmer. Youre a writer. Youre a dad. Youre a musician. Itseems like you know a heck of a lot about a lot. Talk to me a little bit

about the role of context in your life.

Context to me thats one of those really big words. It encompasses literallyeverything. This is one of our kinds of problems we get to in the way wetypically think about things. We like to take things out of context very often tostudy them. Its a classic scientific bit. That you take something out of, youknow, its environment or out of the piece of the machine thats in and study inisolation to understand it and then you go on to understand the big thing. The

problem is that usually doesnt work or many times, that doesnt work.

Back before when I said, that for many years, they thought that you didntgrow new neurons in the brain ever. You reach some maximum number atadulthood and thats all you ever had because in the lab, they tried this onprimates and observed them and saw that they didnt grow new neurons.

The problem was they were observing the primates out of context. They wereobserving primates in sterile lab conditions in a cage. So what they were reallyobserving, was if you put a primate in a sterile lab cage they dont grow newneurons. Because ignoring the context extrapolated to you dont grow newneurons period, which is not the case.

You put that same animal in its natural habitat, in its proper context, with asensory rich environment and they are growing new neurons all the time. Youhave to be careful about taking things out of context to try to study them.

If you look at the discipline assistance thinking which I think is absolutelycritical for entrepreneurs, for anyone trying to get anywhere, you really needto understand how systems thinking works. I think the best quote, I think it wasPeter Senge who said, everywhere we look we see straight lines but the worldis really made out of circles. Things affect each other and they come back andaffect what you were looking at initially. You got the reinforcing moves andvicious cycles and all these sorts of things that we tend to kind of ignore.

The reason for that is kind of interesting too. We build new mental modelsfairly easily. We see something and we build a mental model about how itworks but the side effect is that were really resistant to scrap existing mental

models.

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If you have an idea of how the world works whether its technical or political,you know, whatever sphere its in, but if you got it hardwired, a model in yourbrain that conservatives are right or liberals are right or whatever it might be,all the facts in the world make it very hard for you to change that model who

are very resistant to throwing out existing mental models.

Thats one of the things that you need to be better at is a willingness to scrapexisting mental models of something that youre learning or something that youthink and build in new ones. Thats really hard to do because were really notwired to do it that way. Were loathe to scrap any existing models that wevegot built.

Does the ability to be able to scrap some of these mental models and theability to do that kind of stuff, doesnt it the more we learn aboutdifferent things, I would think that would help us become a little bit more

smarter.

It absolutely does. The irony is this is something they refer to in martial artsand those sorts of areas as keeping the beginners mind. Its a real irony thatone of the key things that keeps an expert going is to keep a beginners mind,to be open to possibilities, to be open to reconstructing your mental models tobe agile and flexible with change.

One of the worst things that can happen to an expert over time is that theystop considering new things. They have seen this a hundred times before, it

always works like this and they get very fixed and very rigid in their thinking.Time goes by, technology changes, society changes and they are still fixed insort of the old ways of doing things.

This is where you get that, I forget who said it but that wonderful saying aboutscientific advancement that new ideas dont ever really take hold until theprior generation dies off. Were not there to support it anymore and then thenew ideas have a chance to actually bloom and flourish. Like most picky thingsthere is a lot of truth behind that because its very easy to get stuck in a rutand not have the beginners mind thats open to possibilities.

There are two things that are key. You have to have the beginners mind whereyou say, okay thats great, you know, why? How does that work? Be open to thepossibility and avoid the issues with second order incompetence, which is alovely phrase. Thats the thing where you dont know what you dont know.Thats a huge danger.

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I could point to some great public figures here who go out and blabber on, onthe TV. Its quite clear that they are so ignorant that they dont even know thethings that they are ignoring about.

Thats a whole other conversion we could have for hours.

Its a whole another conversation. Its really important to keep in mind that it has to be okay to say I dont know. In fact, you want to do that. You want tobe comfortable with uncertainty. Thats one of the big things I think that helpssuccessful entrepreneurs get ahead is you cant know everything, at least notin this day and age. In older ages, it probably was possible to sort of knoweverything maybe in the early 1800s but certainly not these days. You cantkeep on top of everything even in a particularly narrow field.

In computing, 20-30 years ago, you probably could keep ahead of most

advances, most research and have at least a good general idea of everythingthat was going on. There is no chance of that now. Thats blown. Thats just

not going to happen.

You have to be okay with the idea that there is a lot that you dont know. Thatmost things you dont know, and youll be uncertain about and you have to beokay with that. Where its important you dig down and you try and figure it out.

How has your research impacted the way you work and the way you think?

I think for the most part, it has made me aware of the dangers of sort ofrunning on autopilot, not being deliberate and just kind of setting yourself onauto and just letting it run.

One of my favorite quotes was decrying the fact that people go through theirlives kind of like robots a lot of the times without really seeing whatshappening. The average human looks without seeing, listens without hearing,moves without physical awareness, inhales without awareness of odor orfragrance and talks without thinking. You know who said that? Leonardo daVinci.

Certainly, I love that.

Da Vinci said that. Five hundred years ago, he complained that people talkwithout thinking and that was long before Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, whatever.Its not a new problem. I think its exacerbated these days and especially this is another whole hour-long topic at least we havent talked about thegorilla in the room being the internet.

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There is some rather I think rather disturbing research on how the use of theinternet and how we interact with it is also physically changing our brainsbecause it would have to just like anything else. This is something that youredoing a lot of if youre online, six hours, eight hours, 12, 14 hours a day that isgoing to impact your brain and how it works and how it processes information.

Some of that could be positive change, some of its a negative change.

In particular, the ability to sort of deep read to take a longer work of an actualbook and sit and read it for some several hours, you know, most of us donthave the time to do that anymore. Were used to this very type of informationgathering where its very shallow. Were skimming across a bunch of websites,were reading a paragraph here, a paragraph or two and were building amental model from this widely fragmented information.

There are some advantages to doing that and there are some big disadvantages

in losing the ability to deep read. How do we reconcile that? How does thatwork out? Im not sure but its a big thing. It may end up being the biggest

thing and were only dimly aware of it even now.

Id like to close with, Andy Id like to stick on that topic just for a second.Id like to get your perspective. There are a lot of entrepreneurs who aregoing to be listening to this, a lot of very successful, smart people. Forthose who have an ambition this year to read lots of books, what advice doyou have for them that would enable them to retain more of what theyread actually apply it?

Its funny, one of the things this is pretty old school the whole deal withbeing able to remember stuff and be able to apply it and be able to work with

it is all about strengthening neural connections.

There are a couple of things that are well known to strengthen neuralconnections. Strong emotion is one of them. This is why you will remember foryears possibly that bully in elementary school or that time you almost fell offthe cliff. Something thats got a strong emotional connotation gets seared intoyour memory. It has very strong connections to it.

If youre reading about a subject that youre passionate about that you reallycare about, thats make or break youll remember it much better. If yourereading some dry economics text that you could care less about, it aint goingto stick. Its going to go in one ear and out the other. So strong emotions willmake you learn more effectively about what youre reading for it to stick.

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Greater sensory involvement with the topic helps. So if you are readingsomething, be doodling at the same time, draw little pictures not schematicsorts of diagrams but just little pictures of what youre reading to help putyour thoughts in perspective.

Writing and taking notes in general. This is a fascinating thing. It seems thatthe act of writing notes is the important part whether or not you ever go backand read them again, is less important. But the act of writing them, you areagain, strengthening connections.

If you put this together one of the most effective things I think if yourestudying some new topic, youre exploring something is to use a mind map asyou go along. This is one of those things in European countries, everyone knowsabout mind maps. This is something they are thought in elementary andprimary school and they were comfortable with it. Its a lot less visible here in

the U.S. for whatever reasons.

If you look up, you know, the classic book on it is Tony Buzans book on mindmapping that there is plenty of stuff online, you can see how to do it. Youbasically want to draw. You want to activate those portions of the braininvolved in drawing and note taking and put big arrows and circles and linkthings together and do little doodles and pictures and what not and make itvery loose and very organic. Dont try to make it look like a PowerPoint. Try tomake it look like something thats very messy and organic because thats whatit is.

If you do that, keep that mind map out. Say you read this book on some subject.Youve taken notes on it as a mind map form, leave it out on your desk. Yourewalking by it, youll ask - I wonder if these two things are related. You go tothe mind map, you can draw a line between them with a question mark andthen you go look it up and you find it and you put more notes and you drawmore stuff, you add color to it, you embellish it.

As you go through these exercises, it sounds kind of silly, its like, I have takennotes and now this guy is telling me to go add color to my diagram. What goodis that? What youre doing is youre asking your brain to say, I want to workwith this material and classify it. I want to come up with relationships betweenthings.

So youre actually mining the information, saying, okay, if I were to add colorto this drawing, what would it represent? What good would it do? Now youreactively looking for relationships in the information and you start to get insights.Like, okay, Ill color all these stuff red and this stuff green. Now youre sitting

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here with a bunch of Crayolas on a piece of paper but youre asking your brainto do this very sophisticated in-depth analysis of the material that youreworking on.

Andy, brilliant absolutely brilliant. I cant tell you how grateful I am for

your insights and I know that this field for you personally probably is justevolving. If people just start to engage your thinking alone, Im sure many,many books would be forthcoming if thats something youre interested in.I totally am grateful for your time.

Thank you so much for having me.

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Andy Hunt-Pragmatic Thinking and Learning (Unplugged)