9542. (G. MREDLANE) (G. 559)

are deported by the special staff. The government is taking the money from the dead bodies and further said there is not one man who will hit me and I will pay back and if I will die I will die with a European." I should point out there, My Lord, that here the original 5 notes vary somewhat from the transcript my learned friend has, and I made the witness inscribe in ink on the copy now before him and the copy before me the precise order of these words, which are "who will hit me and I will pay back and if I will die I will die with a European". 10 Then he continues s "Many Africans are dying through the European bullets." And the next speaker was Tshume?

Yes, My Lord. That is not the person you pointed out this

morning? It is not. 15 Did he say ; "Because of deportation of

Ngwentshe and Lengesi I will never live alright till I die. I am not in peace and I am ready the volunteers must change their names, because the enemy is n^ar. We are ready for struggle. The police now are in the cages from the cages 20 they will go strait to the sea. The apartheid is very good for the Africans, but the Europeans are going to starve a lot. The ac:^anoe agents 'Europeans' will further go away. The Africans must leave those empty pots but we do not want to tramp on them, they must come 25 back to us. "he special staff is waiting their time writing, the freedom will come back. When the Europeans will go to the gaol and Tshume will guard them." Now look in your notes, omit the next speaker, and do your notes reflect that one W. Mkwayi spoke? Yes. 30

xhat is the person you pointed out? Yes. I am going to read the concluding portion of his

9543- (G. MREDLANE) • 39)

speech only. Did he say "All the peoples conference in the Union workers we want to organise even the Police, "because they are not fetting their offs on Sunday. The Unions are preparing to help you next week I want all the people to come with £1, because our chairman was arrested 5 and we want to give that money to Sam Kahn. He further said our ffiends were sent next to the Mau-Maus. Tomo Kenyatta did organised his people and was arrested for that and the Mau-Mau will never be finished at Kenya and we will have them in this country. If the Europeans is 10 hitting you should hit him back." According to your notes, did one Ntsangani speak after Mkwayi? Yes.

Is that the same Ntsangani you pointed out this morning? Yes, My Lord.

I read his speech s "We are going to organised 15 the Youth to the A.N.C. The men are dying day by day from far East to West, "because the capitalists kicking all the oppressed people. The Europeans when they defeated Germans they came back and oppressed the people. At Kenya when Jomo Kenyatta was organising his people was arrested 20 through people of Kenya are still doin their struggle. Again in Kenya there is a Special C.I.D. call him Percy, the Kikayu die and also a European die next side. We understand that young men is coming here, but if anything happens here we are not going to accept that but to our 25 all the people conference. We are going to say something what is happening in Kenya will happen here. At this Malan's time we are going to protect us." Is it clear from your notes whether a person Ntunja spoke, the last speaker at the meeting? . Yes, My Lord. 30

I'll read what you recorded under his name s "S. Ntunja said ; The Government who is ruling this country

9544. (G. MREDLANE) (G. 563)

his time is finished. If a man uses a knife you should take it used it to him. When Europeans were chased in India they went to Kenya and now the Kenya Africans are dying. The people with no side will get some broken pieces of stones. In riots, revolution and wars the 5 people who are standing behind are the only to get some broken pieces of stone". You then recorded the closing of the meeting at 5.30 p.m. Is that correct? Yes, My Lord.

Nov/ see whether you have Exhibit G. 563 before 10 you? Yes, I have it.

Are these your original longhand notes, taken at what meeting? Yes, at an A.N.C. meeting held at Desais Private Ground, Korsten, on the 23rd January, 1955. 15

According to your notes, who was the chairman? Ndimba.

Is that the person you pointed out this morhing? Yes.

What language did he speak? Xosa. 20 Looking at the copy before you, is it correct

to say that he spoke against Bantu Education and passes? Yes.

I am now going to road what you recorded as being the concluded - the concluding portion of his 25 speech. Did he say this ; "At Kenya the Government is aiming for a peace to the Mau-Maus and yet the people of Kenya when they were asking for equal rights they were given bullets. At J oh'burg on the 12//3/55 the people will be removed from their homes and they said they will 30 send their souls, but the dead bodies will be left behind, and also here at Korsten we will do the same"? Yes, My Lord.

9548' (G. MREDLANE) (G. 563A)

Does it appear from your notes whether S, Vanga spoke at this meeting? Yes.

And did J. Jack speak at this meeting? Yes.

Turnin to Vanga's speech, did he speak about 5 the school boycott that was being contemplated? Yes.

Have you now before you Exhibit G. 564? Yes. Are these your original longhand notes taken

at a meeting at Korsten? Yes. What sort of meeting was it and on what date 10

vas it held? A.N.C. meeting, My Lord, on the 6th Feb-ruary, 1955.

Who was the chairman? Mbelekani. And in what language were the speeches made?

In Xosa. 15 According to your notes, did Nogaya speak after

the chairman? Yes. Did J. Koyo speak? Yes. 4

Did S. Nkalipi speak? Yes. Did B. JMimba speak? Yes. 20 I read the concluding portion of Ndimba's

speech, which you have recorded thus s "We are getting tired ..-" rather, "On the 12/2/55 all the people must going to thebmountains. We are getting tired with the Europeans.." - My Lord, I regret, this portion I shall 25 have to ask the witness to read himself, because his amendment is a somewhat complicated one. First tell me, the Ndimba you recorded here, is he the same person you pointed out this morning? Yes.

Read from your original notes what you have 30 recorded under B. Ndimba? "On the 12/2/55 all the people must come here so then you must take the struggle

9546. (G. MREDLANE) (G. 564)

of Kenya where they took the police rifles, recently the Kenya people took about 25 rifles from the police, some other people they said we are wasting a long time let us fight these Europeans. The people in Johannesburg they said the Europeans will take their souls but their dead 5 bodies will left behind, same here in P.E. We must take that slogan."

Does it appear from your notes that Nkampeni also spoke at that meeting? Yes.

Is that the person you pointed out this 10 morning? Yes.

And the Nkalipi you referred to, is that also the person you referred to this morning? Yes, My Lord.

That is all from that meeting, My Lord. Constable, will y.-u now got Exhibit G. 565? Yes. 15

Are these your original longhand hotes taken at a meeting at Korsten? Yes.

What meeting was this and on what data? A.N.3. meeting on the 20th February, 1955.

Who was the chairman? Mbelekane, My Lord. 20 Who was the first speaker aft-r him?

B. Ndimba. Is that the person you pointed out this

morning? Yes. In what language did he speak? Xosa. 25 Can I summarise the first portion of his

speech by saying that he spoke against the Bantu Educa-tion Act and emphasised that the children were not going to school? Yes.

I'll read what yoa have recorded as the closing 30 part of his speech ; "In this country the Europeans will never defeated us. In China Choe-en Lai he gave people of

9548' (G. MREDLANE) (G. 565A)

China some stones instead of bread but where is he, he is in an island. In Kenya today this is the second year the Europeans and Africans fighting and there will be no success to the Europeans. In the A.N.G. we do not want the bloodshed but in Kenya they said so but the Europeans 5 persisting and the Africans accepted all that, but if we can fight that can be alright, because some can go to heaven, whereas some can go to hospital, even here we should already conquered this Europeans." According to your notes, did S. Vanga then speak? Yes. 10

There you recorded "Vanga said : Sons and daughters of Africa. All the people who are against our campaign.. We will see them when we receive our freedom. This education will give your children only as far as Standard II. In Kenya the Africans left their 15 houses and went to the forest where they think thrice and went straight to the Europeans." That Vanga, is he the same one you referred to earlier this morning?

Yes, My Lord. Vanqa. That is all from that meeting, My Lord. The 20

next is G. 566A. My Lord, this is a new meeting, which was not led at the Preparatory Examination. I suggest that it be G. 566A. The date of the meeting is 13/3/55. Is G. 566A your original longhand notes taken at a meeting at Korsten? Yes. 25

What meeting was it and on what date? Congress of the people on the 13th March, 1955.

Is the position that with reference to this 1 •

meeting you were not permitted to go inside the hall? Yes, they did not permit me to go in. 30

How are you able to say what went on there?

9 5 4 8' (G. MREDLANE) (G. 566A)

I went into another room which was close to the apartment in which the meeting was.

Was it an adjoining room? Yes. Could you hear the speeches that were being

made? Yes, My Lord. 5 But the speakers were not visible to you?

They were not visible. Are you able to say who the chairman was?

B. Ndimba. T.7ere you able to recognise his voice? Yes. 10 Is that the same person pointed out by you this

morning? Yes. Do your notes yellect that S. Nkalipi spoke?

Yes, Was that the person pointed out by this 15

morning? Yes. I heard the chairman announce his name and call him up#

And then did somebody get up and speak? Yes.

Now at the foot of page 1 of your typed copy, 20 you have the following note ? "A§ Nohoya. Chief Volunteer was called to give the number of the volunteers of freedom Charter and they must take the oaths after me." What happened there? Why have you in your notes recorded the name of Nohaya? He was called by the Chairman. 25

And after he was called, did someone in fact speak? Yes, Nogaya spoke.

Why do you say that? Because he was called in to swear in the volunteers.

Did a person thereafter in fact swear in 30 volunteers? I just heard him speak, I could not see or say whether there were actually volunteers there.

9549. (a. MREDLANE) (G. 566A)

Did you hear what he said? I heard what he said.

You have recorded this here, also under the name of Nogaya i "I have the truth against apartheid. The goice of all the oppressor I who has associate with the volunteers of Freedom I take oath that I shall die fighting as a volunteer, with the care to serve my country and my people and ever prepared to take action for I shall obey my leader at all times. At all time under the guidance of our leaders"* Is ttefc correct? «— - Yes, 10 My Lord, ^

Can you explain to the Court how you made that note? He was called to swear in the volunteers, and then he spoke and he said these words and I wrote them

down, ^ You told us earlier this morning that you know

this person Nogaya, and you also knew that he was an Accused at the Preparatory Examination? — - Correct.

Before this meeting, how well did you know him? OA

I knew him well. Had you ever heard him attend other meetings?

< Yes, at all the meetings at Korsten. Had you spoken with him yourself? Yes, My

Lord, And according to your notes, - no, that is 25-N

all from that meeting. Look now at Exhibit G. 611? Yes.

Are these the original longhand notes taken by you at a meeting at Veeplaats? Yes, My Lord.

District of Port Elizabeth? Yes. 30 What meeting was it and on what date was it held?

9550. (G. MREDLANE) (G. 611)

It was an A.N.C. meeting, on the 24th April, 1955. Who was the chairman? D. Fuyani. Is it correct that he said that the speakers

would deal with the boycott of the schools and also with the Congress of the people that was to be held? Yes. 5

Who was the next speaker after Fuyani? W. Mahlulo.

Did he also refer to the Congress of the People and the boycott of the schools? Yes.

In the middle of his speech you have recorded 10 the following ; "The white people received their freedom by bloodshed even to us today, we are going to get our freedom with bloodshed". Is that correct? That is correct, My Lord.

In the concluding portion of his speech, did 15 he says "I can rather die if our children can get this Bantu Education"? That is so, My Lord.

In what language did Mahlulo speak? In Xosa, My Lord.

Is this Fuyani the chairman the same person 20 to whom you referred at the beginning this morning, whom you knew? Yes.

The last one to which I refer, My Lord, is Exhibit G. 614. Have you that exhibit before you? Yes.

Are these your original longhand notes taken 25 at a Conference at Veeplaats? Yes, % Lord.

What Conference was it and when was it held? A.N.C.Y.L. on the 9th October, 1955.

Does it appear from your notes whether P. Mqotha attended this Conference? Yes, My Lord. 30

That is the person you referred to this morning? Yes, My Lord.

%

qcn (G. MEEDLANS) (G. 614)

Did L. Kepe attend it? Yes. Is that the person you referred to this morn-

ing? Yes, My lord. Did T. Tshume attend it? Yes. Did he speak at the Conference? Yes, he did. 5 Is he the person you pointed out this morning?

Yes.

I think... Did D. Fuyani speak at the Conference?

Alright, nevermind about Fuyani. According to 10 your notes did Mfaxa speak? Yes, My Lord.

Is that the same person you referred to this morning? Yes, My Lord.

And according to your notes was V. Mini \

present at the Conference? - - Yes, My Lord. , 15 Is that the person you mentioned earlier?

Yes.

Was.A. Nagoya present? Yes. Is that the person you mentioned earlier?

Yes. 20

And was W. Mati present? Yes. According to your notes, the last portion reads

as follows ; "Tshunungwa proposed the resolution to be accepted also". Now was Tshunungwa present and did he speak? Yes. 25

Is that the person pointed out by you this morning? Yes.

Now I want you to listen to what you have recorded here and then you must tell the Court whether you are able to remember in what language he spoke. 30 "Tshunungwa proposed the resolution to be accepted also said the Secretary must write all these resolutions and

9552. (G. MREDLANE) (G. 614)

send them to the general house because these resolutions have got some views for all the people who are oppressed more over those who are in South West. The struggle which we are under of the Bantu Education when the A.N.C. was electing the women's league the idea was to organise them for such struggle like these passes. You have seen the things at Cape Town. The burning of the passes was very-good but I do not say you should ban the passes. We did went to the Congress of the people in Johannesburg where we made our list of Freedom Charter but now what we want is that we must teach all those people $hom they elected us. We want each delegate that he must concentrate to the list and teach it to the people if wecan say we are the people of the lane we want our land by blood. The blood can flow, we are going to go through the big fires. Our campaign is to teach the Freedom Charter correctly". Now is that what Teshunungwa said according to your notes?

Yes. Can you tell the Court, this whole bit that I

read, including the reference to the resolutions, are you able to say in what language he was speaking when he said this? The resolution itself ho spoke in English, and then the last portion after the resolution in Xosa language. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. H0..-XT3R. CASE REMANDED TO MONDAY, 22ND FEBRUARY, 1969. COURT ADJOURNS.

9553.

COURT RESUMES ON MONDAY, 22ND FEBRUARY, I960. APPEARANCES AS BEFORE.

GRIFFITHS MREDLANE, duly sworn; CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. BERRANGE 5

You told the Court when you gp.ve evidence on Thursday that most of the speakers or nearly all the speakers at these meetings spoke either Xosa or Zulu and that you made your own translation? Yes, in Xosa only, and I took it down in English. ^

And it was also put to you that you had a good working knowledge of English and you replied in the affirmative? Yes.

I want to challenge that immediately, and I want to put it to you that your knowledge of English is so 10 inadequate that most of what you have recorded in your notes would ho unintelligible to any ordinary person reading them? To that end I am just going to take one meeting and read the meeting Through to Their Lordships so as to enable you to say whether you think any average 15 individual would be able to understand what you have recorded. Just let me refer to one of the meetings which the Crown referred to, that is the meeting held on the 9th October, 1955, on Exhibit G. 614, "The meeting started at 2.15 p.m. of the second period under Mqotha's chairman- 20 ship, said ; All the delegates must come in front so when counted they should be in order. We received the report from the President things like service contract, books the report from ..- " - I beg your pardon. "... books, the list of the Freedom Charter and the Bantu Education 25 Act. Antoni said % I would like to understand the oppression which we are going to buy it I would like this meeting

9554. (G. MRSDLANE)

when taking resolution that it should be fixed in our customs and I would like the Youth League to joih in the struggle. Ndugane : In the Trade Unions they must assist others at v/ork. Unknown Native male ; Under the report of the present President the Youth League had a lot 5 of work on him. The youth league the things which they supposed to build they cannot make it, things like Rugby

t Soccer and others." Do you suggest that that sort of recording is intelligible to people reading it? Well, that I cannot say, My Lord. All I can say is that I wrote down there what was said.

I'll skip the next couple of paragraphs, because I make no point of the ungrammatical manner in which it was recorded. No, I'll read it all. "Unknown

15 Native male said ; Africans the Verwoerds' Education is not a good thing although we have taken our chance secondly we are going to bo given our passes. We must speak together so that we can fight our struggle. Chairman said ; Tomorrow is a holid -j so fthen the youth 20 league they must teach these young children. As from 1948 we started the Youth League. I want the speakers which are going to give us how we can achieve this educa-tion. Yoko 3 I want the Youth League to taught politically. The first to a youth league is to teach a child that he 25 must love his father. As an African we are born in South Africa end we are in Africa. Anything which is going to be taught to a child is that whether he is a social or soccer he must do it as an African at his home." Do you suggest that that is intelligible to anybody? — All I can say is that I wrote down there what was being said. "Chairman ; said the Congress of the People

9555. (G. MREDLANE) (G. 614)

was the conference of all the people of this country with their views. Now I am going to give chance to the leaders or secretaries to give their report branches. Kepe : On behalf of our branch here is the report. Mr. Mati became as president - vice President Machappa. We are oppressed that in both the big house we must have something. Many members were rolled this year. That sought of gathering is not the one that can put the views of the people together. Our members went away which they are there to be forced to the organisation." Is that intelligible, do you suggest? I wrote it down like that, I don't know whether it is intelligible, My Lord.

Intelligible to you? No, I just wrote down.

Is it intelligible to you? Yes, I just hear what they speak.

What does this mean to you? I can only say that it is things that were said at the meeting at the time. BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER :

Take the sentence "Our members went away which they are there to be forced to the organisation". Does that mean anything to you?m No, I am not able to make out what that means or what it is supposed to convey. BY MR. BERRANGE :

"The way how this present government treated our people by shifting them from their places. The Advisory Board at New Brighton is the one they change our people." Intelligible? No, My Lord.

"In the last weeks we were visited by the police which they took our list of things for the freedom.

9 556. (G. MREDLANE) (G. 614)

The police they said they are investigating the high treason. In that point now we are going to five a short report "because our list of books were takjn away. The Bantu Education is the one worrying the people moreoever for our children. The Youth League are there to protect the 5 African children. We can advise if we can teach this children some tinsmithing. All the delegates they must try to have private meetings with the president. The Bantu Education report has passed under this troouble of children. I would like that we must pass a resolution. 10 Chairman said if there are any reports written in English he should be notified, he called v UITENHAGE^: Reports read this work has been started last year although there were some misunderstanding amongst them. VEEPLAATS: The boycott here in Veeplaats is going properly, we have got 15 so many children out of school. Koraten : Report read we are working together with the A.N.C. mother body. The boycott is progressing in Korsten. Kleinskool : Report read This boycott is a wheel on Tuesday is a boycott the Ycuth League is dcing its work we are not playing there 20 in Kleinskool. The number of Volunteers is 124 in roll. Walmer s Report read In this organisation of Walmer the most of the Youth League are the people who likes the amusement more than their organisation we have got 72 members only. Despatch s Report read. Chairman ; 25

Said all the reports they should be send to the General Secretary in time in so much we were supposing not to read these reports here. So by next year we want these reports to be sent in time to the General Secretary. I would like to have two speakers after this report and I 30 will give them a short time. Unknown Native male said the Youth League is a very strong organisation. Mr. Chairman

9557. (G. MREDLANS)

if we were going to leave these children backward and chase these trade unions and festival Youthbday we must teach them." Is that intelligible? No, My Lord.

"Kepe : Said Mr. Chairman I challenge this we must stop this trade union. We are forced and bound 5 to teach our leaders more over when coming to the conference they must not fear who's giving the reports. Chairman: Said if we can leave the trade unions we are nowhere because the trade unions are the most important to the Africans. Tshume : I like the style done by the Kor- 10 sten branch because we once understand that mother body and the Youth League are not workin together. So then any members whom we can find him trying to separate these A.N.C. and A.N.C.Y.L. we are going to deal with him. Mfaxa ; I am sorry as I am going to give this report. I 15 am going to give some few points. We have got 17 branches for the Youth League in the Cape and that is very few. In last year you should know that the Secretary put this we should organise this organisation. The members of the A.N.C.Y.L. such as R. Mandela, Z. Matthews and others who 20 were banned not to attend these gatherings. You are so silly here in the Youth League as though the Congress of the People which is going to preside in December this year." It doesn't make sense either, does it? No.

"In my report I put this to the members that 25 they must put their heart to Ngwentshe and Lingisi and also to our iheader Mr. Manyube of Grahamstown who is deported from Grahamstown back to his home. Chairman said ; In the organisation we do not like that the youth league they must know that we A.N.C. people we are better 30 than them. The youth league is not a political organisa-tion but they are there to bo sent to do some work. So

9558. (G. MKEDLANE)

the report from the secretary is not B d nice when saying the youth league are very silly so that should be stopped in our meeting. I. Kepe said % The report from the Secretary is not fullfil except that he was giving a warning to the Youth League by question is what has he 5 done for the youth league." Also unintelligible? Yes, My Lord.

"Unknown Native male said : The report from the secretary is not satisfactory by saying we should leave t the trade unions. Festival day and should join the basic 10 organisation which is A.N.C. Unknown Native male said ; The report from the secretary does not suit us, what happened why this conference didn't sit before this one. Mafaxa s The mother body and the youth league are the same so if I am secretary I cannot use my money if I am 15 going to some meeting That means to say the youth league has no money at all. Chairman said thebgovernment who is presiding is preaching apartheid. The report of money I would not come with it in detail because the dogs of Swarts took all our books. 20 Unknown Native male said the business of money is a problem because all the people they are joining and we do not see it. Tshunungwa said as I am a member in the Youth League I would like in this conference all the committee members 25 that they must send their report to the committee meetings you must pay 2/- l/- as for A.N.C. l/- for Youth League to be a member in the A.N.C. you should pay l/- and l/- to the Women's League. Chairman said those who send each branch must send this in 30 once a year they must lift up their hands. This conference is accepting all the minutes raised. In this committee all

g 5 5 g > (G. MREDLANE) those people mentioned have a right in this conference. Unknown Native Male said We are going to see who can he president I propose that minutes should he postponed in this conference. We are going to propose the secretary Mr. Yoko on the propose Mfaxa Nogaya Manyube Mr. Fuyani 5 proposed that the election should he stopped. Mgotha elected as Provincial secretary Committee members..." and you give their names. "Resolution. This conference is raising the views of the congress of the people. This conference has come to the election of the people to lead 10 the Africans forward. We are achieving the Police work among our people. The Police who were raiding the houses of Africans searching the high treason that is to câ Ll African youth to come to the organisation to be volunteers." Is that sentence intelligible? No, My Lord. 15

"Under this conference we are not waiting for any salary. Conference concentrate on these passes which are going to be given to our women. If government he will receive any trouble by giving these passes to our women we must not put any fault to anybody. We are kicking this 20 to our people in this country. This..." - first, is that intelligible? No, My Lord.

"This conference is raising this decision that Luthuli he must see those who are in power to leave this act". Melligible? No, My Lord. 25

"This conference proposes the boycott of schools of Verv'oerd but this conference said this struggle of boycott it will be the one which will defeat the government by putting our children away from school. Conference has got this view that we should send some 30 people to go and preach to some other centres. Therefore we call upon to those who are elected under this organisa-tion so that we must write to the President for what they

9560. (G. MREDLANS)

must do for their future. These points which are proposed in this resolutions are very prominent to all youth league. This conference is proposing the people who are fighting the present government. This conference is proposing the release of prisoners such as Jomo Kenyatta. Also I remin-ding the British government in Kenya that he should cease what he is doing in Kenya because the struggle will never sease. Conference knows that there is a messenger of S.A. who will send this to his people. This conference said in the struggle there must he some papers and books which will be written in Xosa, Zulu and Sesuto so that all the people shouldnread how the trouble started." Now all that was contained in this meeting until you came to Tshunungwa, and the last twelve or fifteen lines is what was read in by the Crown. The remainder of what I have read out is not mentioned by the Crown. I don't propose to read Tshunungwa, except for one sentence, the sentence that was read in by the Crown. "The struggle which we are under of the Bantu Education when the A.N.C. was electing the women's league the idea was to organise them for such struggle like these passes. You have seen the

things at Cape Town. The burning of the passes was very good, but I do not say that you should ban the passes." Is that intelligible? In the beginning of that which you read now, it is not clear, but going on towards the end then it becomes clear.

"We did went to the Congress of the people in Joburg where we made our list of Freedom Charter but now what we want is that we must teach all those people whom they elected us. We want each delegate that he must con-centrate to the list and teach it to the people if we can say we are the people of the land our land by blood. The

9561. (G. MREDLANE)

blood can flow. We are going to go through the big fires. Our campaign is to teach the Freedom Charter correctly". Those are the words read in by the Crown. Would you agree with me that a great deal of this is quite unintelligible not only to you but to anybody reading it?

Yes, there are certain parts of it that a person would not be able to make sense out of, but some parts you can.

Is this your English that you are using? Yes, My Lord.

I just want to refer very shortly to one more meeting that you reported and which was read by the Crown. That is G. 559, a meeting held on the 1st August, 1954. I am referring to that portion of Tshume1s speech which you read out at the bottom of page 1 of the transcript. I'll read out the part which I think the Crown wanted s "I am not in peace and I am ready the volunteers must change their names because the aemy is near. We are ready for the struggle. The police now are in the cages from the cages they will go straight to the sea. The apartheid is very good for the Africans, but the Europeans are going to starve a lot. The assurance agents 'Europeans' will go further away. The Africans must leave those empty pots but we do not want to tramp on them, they must come back to us." Intelligible? Part of it is, yes, but part isn't.

Look at the next page Mkwayi. "When they shouted Afrika The rain fall and the police were there with big machine guns. About the Union workers we must teach our youth from 12 to 16 years and they were given bigger work though he is getting £1.10.0. per week". Quite unintelligible, isn't it? Yes.

You see, I want to put it to you that in fact

9562. (MREDLANE)

your knowledge of English is so poor that you find it v~ry difficult in translating from Xosa into English, to convey in your notes what the speaker is really trying to say? Yes, in some portions that is correct. BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER s 5

Mr. Interpreter, ask the Accused whether he understood your question correctly? Yes.

Can he translate that into English, the ques-tion? Tell him I would like him to tell us in English what the question was? The question, Sir, my English 10 is poor, so that some other notes I couldn't take them nicely. BY MR. BERRANGE s

You see, the majority of the material that was read out at the request of the Crown by you concerned it- 15 self with the troubles in Kenya? Yes, they spoke about it.

I would like to refer you to one thing that the speaker Mkwayi said at a meeting held on the 20th November, 1955, reported in G. 619, I'll only read the portion j 20 which refers to Kenya s "Iziswe is going to be operated, and the New Age is going to have our views so that people must buy all these leaflets. Government is aiming what he did in Kenya by letting the blood of the Africans to flow. Even here he is aiming that. But we do not want 25 that." Is that what Mkwayi said? Yes.

I take it you have heard lots of other speakers express similar sentiments? Yes, I believe there were others who did.

It is also clear, is it not that every now and 30 again you leave out a word or put in a wrong word which gives the sentence a wrong or incorrect meaning? Or gives

9563. (MREDLANE)

it no meaning at all? Yes, that is possible that something like that can happen, My Lord.

You see, I am again referring you back to this meeting reported in Exhibit G. 559 of the 1st August, 1954. Quite a bit of this was read out by you at the 5 request of the Crown, and some of it had to do, as I have already indicated to you, with what was happening in $enya. You remember that was the meeting in which you recorded the following s "Again in Kenya there is special C#I.D. call him Percy thebKikuyu die and also a European 10 die next side. We understand that young men is coming here, but if anything happens here we are not going to accept that but to our all the people conference. We are going to say something what is happening in Kenya will happen here. At this Malan's time we are going to 15 protect us." This was read in by you on Thursday? Yest My Lord.

And then Mkwayi also had something to say about Kenya, but before he came to the Kenya theme, he spoke about the Bantu Settlement Act, train fares, some- 20 thing about Trade Unions which I really can't make out, and then he went on to say this, prefacing his remarks about Kenya s "The A.N.C. is a non organisation, but the government is very worried about this A.N.C.2 Did you leave the word "violent" out there? Yes, My Lord, it 25 was left out.

Now then let us turn to Exhibit G. 611, that was the meeting held on the 24th April, 1955, in which you were only asked to read out four lines of the whole meeting. The four lines are the following "The white 30 people received their freedom by bloodshed even to us today, we are going to get our freedom with bloodshed".

9 9564. (MREDLANE)

Sure you left the word "out" out there? "Without blood-shed"? Yes, I admit that.

It must be so, because if you look at the whole of the speeches made at this meeting, you will see that the theme was one of non-violence? Immediately after 5 having said "we are going to get our freedom without bloodshed", "the government took our men like Ngwentshe and Lengisi to the farms, today our own people are here, helping the whites because they are treating our struggle", whatever that may mean, "but we do not want the whites 10 to leave this country, what we want is stay with them". And then there is another sentence which is not relevant, and then he says ; "In June we are going to form our Parliament where we are going to write a long strip of things and ask Strijdom to give his views about who is 15 going to rule this country", and then the chairman comments on this speech, and says this on the top of page 2, "In the Congress of the people the whites are invited by there will nobody who will "be assaulted". Correct? Yes.

And then the next speaker, going on with that, 20 says this, - he is an unknown Native male - "We are going to have our freedom without guns, but the guns are going to be taken to Satan". Correct? Yes. 1

I take it that you will agree that speakers like Tshunungwa and most of the others whom you have 25 reported speak a very good Xosa? Yes, My Lord.

And will you concede that boycott, the boycott of industry and the "boycott of shops and the boycott of goods was the theme that was most generally discussed at all these meetings? Yes, My Lord. 30

And indeed many speakers said that boycott is the best weapon for them to use in their struggles?

9565. (G. MKEDLANE)

Yes, My Lord. I can just give you a few examples for the

benefit of Their Lordships. Take Exhibit G. 560. There J. Jack says, "We have come to organise our people for the boycott is the best weapon". Then a Mrs. Goirane (?) 5 says "The boycott is our best weapon, the living of Europeans is dependent upon us". And then an unknown Native, as he is referred to by you, says "Please Africans, do away from the shops being boycotted. The boycott is best for Africans". Then Nkalipi says "The boycott is 10 the best weapon and the African defiance of unjust laws in 1952." Correct? Yes.

Take another Exhibit, G. 561. Mayekiso s "Our campaign is now boycott for the year". And then an unknown Native says "We must stand very fast to our boy- 15 cott". Then Ntshaba (?) says, "Boycott is our best

weapon". And then Makhom (?) whoever he may be says, "The boycott is the bullet for the A.N.C." And then other people at other meetings says, "We have got this

20

beautiful weapon, boycott". Nkampeni at one meeting says "The boycott is going to work, Africans". That is a theme that is repeated over and over? Yes, My Lord.

And at these meetings not only did they speak in general terms about the boycott, and I want to suggest to you that at every meeting you reported boycott was the 25 major theme of discussion - not only did they speak in general terms about boycott, but they used to indicate what shops and businesses and goods were to be boycotted?

Yes, My Lord. And that which you have read out to the Court 30

at the request of the Crown is only a fractional part of what was said and recorded at these meetings? No, I

9566 (G. MREDLANE)

cannot say, I don't know how many of my notes are "before the Court...

No, I am not talking about that. Those extracts from your notes, from these transcripts which were read out on Thursday only constitute a very small fraction of what 5 the speakers had to say at all these meetings? That is correct, only a small portion of what was recorded on the paper given to me I read out.

Little selected bits? Yes. Let me take it further. That which you 10

recorded indeed was only a fraction of what the speakers had to say at the meetings? That is correct.

Let me give you some examples. A meeting recorded on G. 619, according to your notes lasted three and three quarter hours, and that was recorded on one 15 and a half pages. A meeting recorded in Exhibit G. 620 lasted six and a third hours and was recorded on one and three quarter pages? Yes, everything that was said wasn't written down.

It shows that very little was written down. 20 A meeting on Exhibit G. 559, lasted three hours and was recorded on two pages. Meeting on Exhibit 563 lasted three hours, and was recorded on two pages. Meeting 564 lasted three and a half hours and was recorded on one and a half pages. I just give that to you as examples. 25 Correct? Correct.

You will also agree with me, will you not, that there was a very strong religious element to be observed at all these meetings? Nearly every meeting was opened with a prayer and sometimes closed with one? 30

Yes, My Lord that is correct, they were invariably opened by prayer and a song and they were closed with

(G. MKEDLANE)

Nkosi Sekelele i Afrika. I am not going to go through all the meetings

that you have testified to and the ones that you haven't testified to, I am just going to read out a few extracts from these various meetings so as to get them onto record. 5 In Exhibit G. 555 Ndimba on page 2 of the Exhibit is recorded in the following way ; "If the police are aiming to arrest any one of us, you must not make trouble to them". And then in Exhibit G. 556, Koyo says "For God's sake do not follow those people .." - referring to the Dutch people 10 "... though we do not say they must leave this country." And later on he says in the same speech, "Because they the police have big arms, but the A.N.C. is not going to take them away in our lifetime". And then Sepale in Exhibit G. 558, "There is not one nation that can be put free by 15 another nation. Even the Russians will never put as free, as Swart has aaid". And thenMKwayi, he made that remark which you hage already adhered to, where you said you left the word "violent" out, The "A.N.C. is a non-violent organisation". And then Matebula in 566, "We must fight 20 our struggle without insulting our enemies. We do not want the capitalists to oppress us, but we do not mean that they must go away". Then Nkalipi in Exhibit G. 562 : "The A.N.C. believes in peace". And then the one that I have alreadjr read out, Fuyani who was the chairman 25 at this meeting in Exhibit G. 611, "In the C.P.O. the whites are invited, but there will be nobody who will be assaulted", and at the same meeting I have already read it out, this uhknown Native said "We are going to have

our freedom without guns". That is correct? Yes, My 30 Lord. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. BERRANGE. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. HOEXTER.

9568. (J. MAKOENA)

JOSIAH MAKOENA, duly sworn; EXAMINEE BY MR. TRENGOVE ;

You are a Detective in the South African Police? Yes, My Lord.

You joined the Police in 1947? Yes, My Lord. When did you become a member of the Security

•°ranch? In 1948. 5 Did you in your capacity as a member of the

Special Branch attend meetings? — - -es. /

Of the African National Congress on the Rand, is that correct? Yes.

From when was that, that you started attending 10 meetings? Since 1954.

Ir your capacity as a member of the Police Force you tool notes of what was said by speakers at some of these meetings? Yes, My Lord.

Where speakers spoke in English, were you able 15 to follow the speeches anc1 take them down? Yes, My Lord.

Which of the Bantu, languages do you understand? Sesuto, Zulu and some Xosa.

Now I want to hand to you a document marked G. 102, and together with it a document marked G. 103. 20 Could you tell Th Jiahipa what G. 102 is? G.102 are notes that I nade at a meeting.

They are in your handwriting? Yes. To what meeting does it refer? A meeting

of the African National Congress, held at Duba Location 25 on the 10th April, 1955.

Do those notes reflect what you observed and what you heard at that meeting? Yes, My Lord.

Can you today without reference to your notes tell the Court exactly what was said and who the speakers 30

9569. (J- MAKOENA)

were at these meetings? No, My Lord, I would have to look at his - at my notes.

I ask that the witness be allowed to refer to his notes, My Lord. You have some more meetings there?

Yes. 5 If those notes are notes in your handwriting ...

BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF : Those are all notes taken at meetings years

ago, and so you won't remember what happened unless you look at your notes? Yes. 10

/ BY MR. TRENGOVE s

You have in front of you also a document marked G. 103, which is a typed transcript of your notes? Yes.

You have satisfied yourself that that trans- 15 cript is a correct transcript? Yes, My Lord, I found them to be a copy of my notes.

Will you refrash your memory from these notes and tell Their Lordships who the first speaker was? M. Xaba, My Lord. 20

He spoke against the Bantu Educstion Act, is that correct? Yes.

After him, who was the next speaker? Selepe. Do you know Sepele? I do, My Lord. What is his name? Peter Selepe. 25 Will you leave out the first portion of his

speech and turn to the portion of his speech where he says, referring to the Malan government and the education scheme, he says "We don't want this education.."? "We don't want this education. I speak openly that my 30 enemies should understand me clearly. I do say Verwoerd - we are going to stop him. Why these Africans Police-always come and take notes when we have got meeting,

9570. (J. MAK02NA)

as if their children are not suffering as our children. There are so many people who had accepted School Board and Committee they must be eliminates. Why this education was introduced is because they fear Africans only. I understand that subject like history are going to be

abolished. Why the Nationalist had decided to abolish them isbecause van Riebeek came in South Africa. Later in Africa he was forced to move out, they had realised that

they will be moved out like those who were moved at the (£Qd=Coast. We are going to do the same and let us all say tomorrow we are going to move National Government. I say to you detectives that your life is eliminated. You will be sent very far from this country. You must come and be delegates at this meeting. Nationalist Government hasbuild some gaols far away in farms where your children

will be sent. A place like Bathal. In conclusion I said a man who is still willing to take part on Bantu Educa-

be tion Committees and School Boards - he must/brought out in this square and be cut out a mans human b -ing so that he may never make some children any more. I want more young men who will stand and say 'I will take a place of J.B. Marks, Mandela and Kotane - down with Bantu Educa-tion we will boycott it altogether". Now My Lords, the next speaker was Zaba again. Is that correct? Yes.

After him who was the next speaker? L. Masina.

Do you know this person L. Masina? I do. He started speaking about the Bantu Education

Act and he spoke against the Bantu Education Act? That is correct.

Will you turn to the last fifteen lines of his

speech, where he says "The time of this Nationalist

9571. (J. MAKOENA)

government is about finished up." Will you just see if this agrees with the passage you have. "The time of this Nationalist government is about to finished up. They went on banning our leaders. But the more they ban the more A.N.C. is growing up. We want more volunteers on this 5 Bantu Education. Nobody will fight for us. What we must do we must work for ourself, even the Gold Coast today they are free so we must try to follow their steps in order to get our freedom. Let us be united in order to get freefrom Bantu Education Act. Our topic is nothing 10 else but Bantu Education in this Lube Township. There are many informers. The policy of A.N.C. is not against Black and White people - it work for everybody who is living in this country". Is that correct? Yes, My Lord.

Who was the next speaker? Samson Zulu. 15 Will you follow and tell Their Lordships if.

this is what he said : "I was in Durban the other time, where I found that the chief is prepared not to accept this Education and they all saying one thing. But here in Dube I see that there are some people who are interested in 20 Bantu Education. Why we can't be the same like those people of Natal. Our fathers were not educated why should our children not be educated is because the government want to make our children only his slaves. My brother is Dingaan who once killed Dutch people. I have got a 25 bad spirit like Dingaan. There are some people here in Dube who don't want to hear anything about Bantu Educa-tion. (-ri.:). Such people are traitors. They are not supposed to be in this Township. I am one of the chief family. I said we must boycott this Education. This 30 present Government has bitten, but even those like Botha was bitten - don't hate those Native Detectives, they

9572. (J. MAKOSNA)

working like everybody. What we want to know - we want to know how far is the A.N. Congress has gone through this Bantu Education. So that we may follow or not. A.N.C. said we must boycotted school committees or stop children going to school. So I would like to know of what we must 5 do." Is that the end of his speech? Yes, My Lord.

Then after that speaker there was a speaker Lengane? Yes, My Lord.

And then there was an unknown speaker, is that correct? Yes. 10

He referred to - he said "This government of Verwoerd is the government of mad people", and he referred to discussions on the native programme in parliament. Is that correct? Yes, My Lord.

Then he goes on, and he says "It may be you - 15 will say congress people are alwayemad when we want free-dom. Nobody can stop us, if you are not a member of the A.N.C. as yet, you must see that your son or daughter must join A.N.C.Y.L." Is that correct? Yes, My Lord.

"Most of the youths are doing nothing else but 20 assisting the government. Thise people of Mau-Mau are not fools but they are heroes. They are fighting for their country. When we take over South Africa those N.D.C. will have to be re-educated because you have no sense as yet. The education you have got is Bantu Education. I am 25 sure if we can speak together we can overpower the present government. Let us all join A.N.C. nothing else". Is ihat correct? Yes, My Lord.

What do the words N.D.C. Stand for? Native Detective Constable. 30

The next speaker after that was - who was that? Nkosi, Lawrence, My Lord.

g574> (J. MAKOENA)

What is his name and what is his surname? His surname is Nkosi, and his name is Lawrence. I have got down here Nkosi, L., meaning Lawrence Nkosi.

He also called upon the audience to fight for the abolition of Bantu Education? Yes. 5

And then a resolution was passed rejecting Bantu Education? Yes, My Lord.

You say that you knew Selepe and you knew Masina. If you see them in Court... BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF : 10

Why don't you finish with all the meetings, and then let him identify the speakers if he can? BY MR. TRENGOVE s

Yes, My Lord, I will. The next meeting is a meeting of the 10th October, 1955, referred to in the 15 Policy Schedule at page 128. I hand to you a document marked G. 164? I know it.

Is that in your own handwriting? Yes. Does that refer to notes you took at this

meeting? Yes, My Lord. 20 'Will you - you also have before you a transcript

of the meeting, of the notes? Yes. Would you refer to the typed transcript if I

ask you to refresh your memory and tell the Court what the speakers said. Where was that meeting held? At 25 Dadoo Square, Moroko Township.

Under the auspices of what organisation? A.N.C.

According to your notes and refreshing your memory, is it correct that Motsabi acted as chairman of 30 the meeting? Yes, My Lord.

Do you know this person Motsabi? I do.

g 5 7 4 > (J. MAKOENA)

Do you know his name? Obed Motsabi. After Motsab , the next speaker was L. Nkosi?

Yes. Is that the Nkosi you have already referred to?

Yes, My Lord. 5 After Nkosi, the next speaker was W. Shope?

Yes. Do you know him? Yes. Is it correct that he appealed to the people

to join Trade Unions? Yes. 10 And at the end of his speech he asked them to

- if they didn't know where to join, he told them to consult the South African Congress of Trade Unions? Yes.

The next speaker, who was that? Lilian Ngoyi. 15

Do you know Lilian Ngoyi? I do.

Sejake. By whom was her speech interpreted? Nimrod

\

Would you refer to your transcript. I'll read what you have recorded as having been said by Lilian Ngoyi. 20 "Mr. Chairman and the gathering, I am going to speak about the women of this country, as they are the foundations of everything, even these Detectives are borne by women. The A.N.C. men slshey usually say Africa will come at their lifetime. I appeal to you the women of this country 25 that we should stand with two feet to build our land, today Malan ha3 done many things with our husbands. They are all useless so we must try to cure them up, some other people had a believe that they will never do anything towards the Europeans but that is not true. 30 I will speak as a mother of children, we have lost our native customs, that is why we are nowhere, really if we

9575. (a. MAKOENA)

if we were all women of South Africa we would all go to Verwoerd on the 26.10.1955. During the passes protest of women A.N.C. has decided to take a defy campaign "but Strydom has just deceived them. Marks and Kotane during their time they broke out the laws, but today our men 5 are not taking part, it makes no difference whether you are a rich man or a graduate. We are all classified under same class, so I appeal to you all daughters of Africa thq.t on 27.10.55 we must all go to Pretoria to make a big protest against the women pass laws. Every..." 10 - then she refers to the pass protest and the Bantu Educa-tion act and to some people taking up the attitude that half a loaf is better than nothing. She appeals to the' audience to keep their children away from Verwoerd Education. Then she continues : "They will live like 15 anybody, we cannot be threatened by only 2,000,000 people and yet we are 10,000,000 in this country. During the removal of Western people were moved by armed police and yet they were not fighting. In Orlando we are going to take out 60 buses, Moroka 60, Pimvi^le 10 and Springs 20 50 buses, they will allgo to Pretoria and we are going to make a big protest in Pretoria. We afraid nothing even if they can lock us in. Police are trying to make some effects to stop Congress because they have seen that Congress is growing more and more. These African Detec- 25

tives they will go to Madacascar Island. In China all men and the youths are all prepared to fight for their own country, today they are free. Mr. Monare is gone to Free State through because he was fighting for his own people".

The next speaker, who was that? Jonas Matlou.

g574> (J. MAKOENA)

Do you know Jonas Matlou? I do. He also spoke against Bantu Education and ethnic

grouping resulting from the removals in the Western Areas? Yes, My Lord.

Who was the next speaker? Robert Resha. 5 Is this what he said? First, do you know this

person Resha? I do. Did he say, "We are here today, but treason

cannot threaten us. When the previous Congress began to build up, the Government had to realise to employ more 10 African Detectives who are today informers of the Govern-ment. Some of them are from Orlando High School where they were all recommended to the government by the principal, they are oppressing their own people because they want to get a piece of work, and school is also called Bantu 15 High School; all these people who belie-wed on Bantu, those are the people who are working for the government. What does Bantu Education means, there are many people who are describing education in many ways. They naid it was brought by Jan van Riebeeck. By Education we mean that 20 when every child has been taught how he should to behave at his home. A girl will be taught by her mother, boy by his father. From now onwards every child should be taught by their parents.. Why these Dutches were killed by Chief Moshoeshoe at Thban Bosiu? Is because he realise 25 that they will come to take his land, that is why these Europeans they called him cunning devil. We know all these by education. Even Chief Dingaan did the same thing in Natal when he killed them all. WhyaChief Sekukune never had a believe on Bible stories. By education we want t 30 put it clear to your children that Jan van Riebeeck was a thief, he was a criminal, that is why he has build all those gaolsl I said to those who does not believe they

9577. (j. MAKOENA)

they must know that their days are numbered; when these European arrived in this country eveiybody was still educated in this country. In Cape people has never been defeated by the Dutches, and in Natal and Zulus were never defeated too at Bloodriver. We should all forget about 5 reading these Bibles because they are only misleading African people. We will neverget our freedom except we unite and stand together. The Bantu Education is only that our children should be taught that white people are superior to Africans. Dr. Verwoerd is the one who had 10 moved Moroka, Jabavu and Sophiatown people to Meadowlands. How can a man be moved to the lavatories and yet he have got a family. There in Springs police have raped two African children and tomorrow these police will rape our women when they demand passes from them". Is that cor- 15 rect? Yes.

And then the re was a resolution regarding passes that was passed at the meeting? Yes.

And after that, who was the next speaker? Simon Tyiki. 20

He appealed to the audience to fight the pass laws and said that on the 27th October, 1955 men should throw away the passes, is that correct? Yes.

And he concludes by saying that he is ahair-man of the Sophiatown branch of the A.N.C.? Yes, My 25 Lord.

Now do you know this man TjakiE I do. Is it correct to say if you look at the

people who were present at the meeting, in your notes, that Selepe was there? No, I haven't got a list of 30 people who attended the meeting, I have only got the list of the members of the police.

g574> (J. MAKOENA)

The next meeting is a meeting of the 13th of November, 1955. I hand to you a document marked G. 194, with a transcript of that document. Those are your notes?

Yes, they are. To which meeting do they refer? It was 5

Moroka Central on the 13th November, 1955, a meeting of the A.N.C.

Who was the chairman at that meeting? Jerry Kumalo.

Do you know Jerry Kumalo? I do. 10 The next speaker after Jerry Kumalo? Esther

Mamakwe. Is it correct to say that she - the following

passage appears in her speech. She starts off "I am a soldier of this country. I will now speak to you about 15 our journey to Pretoria on the 27.10.55 I was at Pretoria present Moroka Branch women A.N.C. section. We were goihg to fight these -against these women passes to Yerwoerd, it is said that next year we are going to carry some passes and I am prepared to burn them in front of M. Square." 20 What is M. Square? Marshall Square.

Then she carried on with the speech against the passes and she says "I appeal to you that no one should ever agree to passes. Our deputations are on the hands of Verwoerd from A.N.C. women's Section. On that day 25 when we shall be burning those passes, I will be glad if we could do - all do the same like those people of Benoni, when they boycotted the Bantu Education, they all did the same thing and all schools were boycotted and that will be the history of the future and we are going to do the 30 same about those coming passes and these Bantu Education.." and she attacks the Bantu Education let. Correct? Yes.

g 5 7 4 > (J. MAKOENA)

Then there were three speakers which you omit and turn to the last speech of 0. Motsabi. Is that the 0. Motsabi you have already referred to? Yes.

He says that they are coming to resolutions, and he refers to the Evaton bus boycott and he says "Buses 5 are still boycotted in Evaton since July and the government has his own tools in Evaton called Russians. So our volunteers will have to go there". Is t M correct? Yes.

"On January the 1st our youths should go and help our African women, and we are going to recruit like 10 Verwoerd on the removal from Western". Is that correct?

Yes. Then there is a resolution calling for 500

volunteers, calling on them to sign the Freedom -Charter, and there is a resolution in favour of preventing chil- 15 dren from attending schools under the Bantu Education Act, and also a resolution to the Moroka people to stand

with the Evaton people in boycotting buses."? Yes, My Lord.

That concludes the evidence on this meeting. 20 I nov/ turn to a meeting held on the 13th May, 1956. I hand to you a document marked G-. 243, together with a transcript of that document. Those notes, were they made by you? Yes.

They refer to a meeting that ycu attended on 25 the 13th March - the 13th May, 1956? Yes, My Lord.

What organisation held this meeting? A.N.C. Whore was it held? Dadoo Square, Moroka

Township. Now will you follow the transcript, and tell 3b

Th

g574> (J. MAKOENA)

Omit what he said. The next speaker was H. Ndaba? Yes.

Omit what he said. The next speaker was Ida Mkabela? Yes.

Omit what she said. Then you come to Simon 5 Malele? Yes.

Do you know this person Elmon Malele? I do. Is it correct to say that he referred to the

acceptance of the Freedom Charter? Yes. And that the Freedom Charter "would rule the 10

whole country"? Yes. And that he then spoke in favour of the adop-

tion and the propagation of the Freedom Charter? Yes. Is it correct that he concluded his speech,

at the bottom as follows ; "Everybody will live in peace, 15 our Freedom Charter has gone through four parts of this country. Chief Luthuli will be the leader of this coun-try. We must fight for our freedom because nobody will ever fight for you. Look today most of the teachers are in the police force through what? Through Strydom. I 2D now move to you African women that you must go outside the country and organise other African women who are t still not alight. We have got some forms which must be signed by all Africans of Freedom Charter". Is that correct? Yes. 25

The next speaker was J. Kumalo? Yes. Is that the J. Kumalo that you have already

referred to? Yes, My Lord. And he also speaks against the Bantu Educa-

tion Act? Yes, My Lord. 30 And then a resolution was passed at this

meeting, reading as follows ; "This meeting held on

g574> (J. MAKOENA)

the 13.5.56 reject the African women passes. We stand passes

together with Winburg women, that day when these "buses arrive here, will also he "burned. Most of our people are in Bethal through these passes. We agreed that Bantu Education should he boycotted altogether and all people 5 are requested to take out their children Verwoerd schools. All these are going to be made in the whole of South Africa. We agree together that Freedom Charter should be accepted because undernthe Freedom Charter it said houses will be security, there will be no site and service 10 schemes". Is that correct? Yes.

That concludes the evidence on this meeting. The next is a meeting of the 3rd June, 1956. This is a meeting in respect of which Detective Sergeant Coetzee, the shorthand writer gave evidence, on Exhibits G. 845 and 15 G. 846. I hand to you an Exhibit G. 847, together with a transcript. Could you tell Their lordships to what meeting your notes refer? This was a Regional Conference that was held at Dadoo Square, Moroka Township, on the 3rd June, 1956. 20

Who was the chairman? Jerry Kumalo, My Lord.

After Jerry Kumalo spoke, you have a note that there was a Sesotho speaker, is that correct? Yes.

And then you have a note at the bottom that 25 A. Mthembu spoke? Yes.

Who was the speaker after that? Dr. Solonky. And the speaker following upon Dr. SiLonky?

Freddy Adams. What does your notes say, who was the speaker? 30

Indian male, Freddy Adams, Do you know this person? I saw him for the

Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812

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