3 401 BRENNINKMEIJER

organisation which would help Blacks to attain community

orientation, community sense, work together in order to better

their living circumstances and things that they could attain.

And did you get to know Zeph Mothopeng? I got to know

Zeph Mothopeng towards the end of 1974.

Was he employed by the Urban Resources Centre? -- Yes,

towards the end of 1974 he became employed by the Urban

Resources Centre as director or field director.

BY THE COURT: As field director? -- Yes.

Director in the field as it were. -- It was to oversee (10)

the actual . activi ties of - we had at that time t ,wo field

workers at work in different townships around Krugersdorp.

MR WILSON: Was one in Kagiso? -- One in Kagiso at that time

in 1974 and one in Davidsonville.

Is that a Coloured township outside Krugersdorp1 -- I

understand so.

Was he subject to the control of the trustees? -- He was

indeed.

And as far as you were concerned, how did he carry out his

duties? -- I must say we as trustees were very pleased with (20)

the performance of Mr Mothopeng as director, as reports came

in fairly regularly and were tabled and discussed and he

received orders from the trustees for carrying on further work.

And what about the finances of the Urban Resources Centre,

how were they controlled? -- As treasurer I made it my duty

of course to see that ' projects were prepared and that actual

income and ex penditure were monitored, written into proper

books and proper books were kept and audited anually.

Would it be possible for anyone to spend any of the money

of the Resources without accounting for them? -- Not (30) '

really, no.

And/

3 402 BRENNINKMEIJER

And how was Mr Mothopeng as regards the keeping of

accounts and rendering accounts? -- I found him personally in

very precise, and detailed and/official and more unofficial

contacts he was frequent in sense of phoning me, asking me this

and that has to be spent, may I spend this and how do we go

about it. I gave him then also advice how to go about it.

And did he account to you for all moneys he received?

He did indeed. I want to add that I did not keep the detailed

cashbook, I did more the statements half yearly or three­

monthly, the daily cashbook was kept by others.

But that was audited each year. Sure, it came into

the ledger and then so it went into the ••

Did you know Mr Michael Matsobane? I did.

How did you know him? -- Mr Matsobane •• (intervenes)

BY THE COURT: Michael, is it?

(10)

MR WILSON: Michael Masobane, accused No. 13. -- At the time I

remember that Mr Adam Smal was at that time trustee. He had to

resign because he returned to the Cape and for him a new trustee

had to be appointed and another gentleman, also a trustee,

resigned, so two we needed and Mr Matsobane was one of (20)

the persons that filled the position of trustee.

And the other one? Mr Corke? -- Mr Corke, yes.

We had a minute put in, M'Lord.

BY THE COURT: You have got the date, have you?

MR WILSON: The date, yes, M'Lord, it is EXHIBIT WWWW, it was

on the 6th March, 1975.

BY THE COURT: That was the first meeting I think that No. 13

said he attended.

MR WILSON: That is where it is minuted: "Appointment of

trustees as Mr Savage and Mr A. Small h ad resigned from

the Board of trustees, Mr Matsobane and Mr Corke were found

ready/ •••

(30) '

3 403 BRENNINKMEIJER

ready to accept the appointment in their places. The meeting

confirmed these appointments."

BY THE COURT: Oh, yes, I think No. 13 was not certain· whether

he was present at that.

MR WILSON: He is recorded as being present, but they attended

the meeting and at the meeting they attended, they were offi­

cially appointed. Do you know anything about the Young African

Christian Movement or the Young African Religious Movement? -­

No, I cannot recall anything.

Did Mr Matsobane play any active part as a trustee of (10)

the Urban Resources centre to your knowledge? -- No, I must,

if you ask me this now, I think I had - I remember Mr Matsobane,

having met him only at one or two meetings.

BY THE COURT: Has any arrangement . been made?

MR WILSON: M'Lord, I have a second witness dealing with the

same matters and it might be more convenient if I lead both

witnesses.

THE WITNESS STANDS DOWN.

MICHAEL ARTHUR STANTON CORKE: sworn states:

EXAMINATION BY MR WILSON: What are your qualifications? (20)

-- I am a schoolmaster. I have a first class honours degree

from the University of the Witwatersrand, I went to the

Johannesburg College of Education and I have a Transvaal

Teacher's Higher Diploma with distinction.

Have you any overseas experience? -- I have taught at

Clifton College, Bristol.

And where have you taught in this country? -- At Pretoria

Boys' High School.

BY THE COURT: When were you at Boys High? -- I started at

Pretoria Boys High in 1960 and from late 1960 to 1961 I (30) ·

was in Bristol and then I returned to Pretoria Boys High until

1964/ •••

3 404 CORKE

1964.

So you were there quite a long time. -- A fair time.

MR WILSON: And after Pretoria Boys High did you go to another

school? -- I went to st John's College which is a private

church school in Johannesburg.

And were you there for some time? -- I was there for 6

years.

And what position do you now hold? -- I am now headmaster

of st Barnabas College in Johannesburg which is also a private

church school. (10)

BY THE COURT: You are now there? -- I am now there. I have

been there for the past 8 years.

MR · WILSON: 1965 to 1970 at st John's.

BY THE COURT: Then 70 to 74. 70 to 78, no, M'Lord, you

have the dates wrong. It was in the sixties that I was at

Pretoria Boys High and in 1970 I left st John's.

You left Clifton? No, Clifton, I was there for only a

year. Then back to Pretoria Boys High until the end of 1964.

Oh, 64? -- Yes.

I thought you said 74. -- No, 64, I beg your pardon. (20)

And then st John's College until 1970 and since then I have

been headmaster of st Barnabas.

MR WILSON: In addition to your position as headmaster, do

you serve on any boards or committees? -- I am a member of

the Conference of Headmasters and Headmistresses of Private

Schools in South Africa and I am a member of the Transvaal

•• whoops ••

BY THE COURT: Headmasters? -- Conference of Headmasters and

Headmistresses of Private Schools.

Is that for South Africa? -- That is for South Africa. (30) '

And in the Association of Private Schools I am a member of the

Transvaal/ •••

3 405 CORKE

Transvaal Regional Executive.

MR WILSON: 00 you serve on any other boards? -- Yes, I am

on the governing council of the Inanda Seminary which is

a private school of the Congregational Church in Durban, just

to the north of Durban in Kwa Mashu.

BY THE COURT: How do you spell it? -- Inanda.

Just like Inanda in Johannesburg? -- That is correct.

It is a very old school, it is 109 years old.

MR WILSON: And anything of a more general nature? -- I do not

think so. (10)

Were you approached to become a trustee of the Urban

Resources Centre? -- Yes, I was.

When was this? -- It would be around February or March,

1975.

And did you agree to that? -- I agreed to become a member.

And did you serve as a trustee? -- I served as a trustee,

as a non-executive trustee.

What were the aims and functions of the Urban Resources

Centre? -- I think in essence the aims were to try to provide

a better quality of life for people in what I would call (20)

disadvantaged communities, the Black areas of Johannesburg.

They did this, as I understood, through first of all encouraging

people to improve the physical nature of their environment,

they taught them arts and crafts. There was quite a progressive

arts and crafts centre at st Ansgars Mission.

BY THE COURT: Can you now tell me please once and for all

how do you spell precisely st Ansgars1 -- well, I spell it

A n s gar s. I think that would be the spelling.

We have had so many pronunciations that it has been

difficult. A n s gar s1 -- Yes, and I think t~ey leave

out the apostrophe.

Where/ •••

(30 ) .

3 406 CORKE

Where is it? st Ansgars Mission. -- It is in Roodepoort

Magisterial District just off the Ontdekkers Road.

Is it called Mission, st Ansgars? -- I think it is just

called St Ansgars, I think so.

Can you just tell me what it is precisely? Is it a

collection of buildings, is it a church hall or what actually

is it? -- It is a collection of buildings. I think they are

owned by the South African Council of Churches and it is

basically a community centre, a retreat centre and a conference

centre. (10)

It stands on its own land, does it? -- It stands on its

own land. That land is contiguous with Wilgespruit Fellowship

Centre.

Mr Wilson, perhaps you can just refresh my memory. Is

that where many of these arts and crafts and various lessons

or things were held?

MR WILSON: Yes, at St Ansgars.

BY THE COURT: At st Ansgars.

MR WILSON: Yes, the Urban Recourses Centre's things were held

at st Ansgars, the Urban Recourses Centre functions. There (20)

was another meeting at Wilgespruit, a meeting of YARM was held

at Wilgespruit.

BY THE COURT: Yes, but I am not thinking about a meeting of

YARM now, it is just that I remember evidence being given about

various night studies or various lessons or whatever you would

like to call it, lectures about arts and crafts and things

like that. Was this all at st Ansgars?

MR WILSON: No, M'Lord, the night studies were held in class­

rooms at schools. Certain schools which names I have now

forgotten and when they got too many for that, they moved (30)

to another school in the township, but the arts things were

all/ •••

3 40 7 CORKE

all held at st Ansgars, the arts and crafts.

BY THE COURT: You know that young girl who gave evidence

for the state, told us about the lectures and the various things

she described about arts and leather work and beadwork and

candle-making, that is St Ansgars?

MR WILSON: That is st Ansgars, yes. Is that so, that is the

type of activity? -- That is correct.

And th e literacy classes were at st Ansgars.

BY THE COURT: Do you know? -- No, I was not conscious of

literacy classes at st Ansgars. (10)

Well, it depends, you see, it may be a matter of semantics,

she may have known them under another name, it is quite possible .

MR WILSON: My Learned Junior informs me and I think he is

correct, they were at Wilgespruit, the literacy classes. And

what other activities, apart from the arts and crafts did they

carryon, the Urban Resources Centre, that you can recollect?

As a member of the trustees I became conscious of a scheme

of community buying, of bulk buying in order to reduce the

costs, as it were the retail costs as it were of goods which

people were finding expensive. (20)

BY THE COURT: There were other schemes. -- The other schemes

of which I was again conscious were again schemes relating to

self-improvement, but I am afraid I am not very clear about

the kind of things which were done. I believe literacy training

may have been a part of that. I am conscious of talk about

trying to teach people motor mechanics and to find people who

would share their skills with others and in this way try to

help people in the community to get better qualifications.

MR WILSON: Did you meet Mr Mothopeng? -- Yes, I met Mr

Mothopeng on the first occasion that I attended ~he trustees' (3C

meeting.

And/ •••

3 408 CORKE

And we have heard evidence that he was the director or

field director. -- I think he was termed - he was in fact termed

the director of the Urban Community Programmes.

And did he render reports to the trustees? He was most

meticulous in rendering reports. He did so at all meetings

which we attended.

And how did you find his administration of finance? -- I

had absolutely complete faith in his administration of finance.

We examined balance-sheets and accounts regularly at meetings

and there was never any occasion on which I felt there was (10)

any question which could be raised about the administration of

the finance.

Did you know anything of the Young African Christian

Movement or the Young African Religious Movement? -- No, I knew

nothing of that.

Did you know Mr Michael Matsobane? -- I believe I met him

once at the first meeting which I attended, but I could not say

that I know him, I grew to know Mr Mothopeng but not Mr

Matsobane.

If I could deviate for a moment before I come to the (20)

next topic. What are your views on the Black people in this

country obtaining equality with the Whites? -- I think that I

would say that I was committed myself to promoting the advance­

ment of Black people right across the broad spectrum of our

society. I believe that this should be done not only in the

interests of justice in our country and in the interests of

fair play, but basically also fundamentally in the interests

of the White community. I think I would say that I would stand

for a program of integration of institutions within our country.

And how do you think it should come about? ~- It W)uld (30Y

need to come about through a far more generous sharing on the

part/ •••

3 409 CORKE

part of people who wield economic and political power in this

country. It really requires in the first instance a level of

sacrifice or apparent sacrifice on the part of the White

community.

How do you think the Black people should go about attempting

to obtain equality? -- It is very difficult for a Black person.

I would say that where educational opportunities are offered to

them, this is the sphere which I understand the most and I

would suggest that this is an area which is absolutely funda-

mental to bringing about any kind of peaceful and pro- (10)

gressive change in South Africa. And consequently I think if I

were a Black man I would above all else be looking for good

education for my children.

And what are your views on the youth, Black youth becoming

politically active? -- Well, in the school I run I do not

encourage it. I think they should be politically aware, they

should be conscious of the nature of the society in which they

are living, but I would be very unhappy to see pupils in my

school involved in overt political activity because I believe

this is very often a distraction and that it detracts very (20)

much indeed from the attention which they can give to their

stUdies and I would say that I normally suggest to my pupils

that they are far better off matriculating and hopefully

obtaining graduate qualifications so that they can participate

meaningfully in the running of the country.

Do your pupils attend any of the classes in arts and crafts

at st Ansgars? -- Yes, I think for a period of about two years

as an extra-curricular activity of the school we have been

sending in the school microbus parties of pupils to st Ansgars

to do pottery and silk-screen work. (30) '

BY THE COURT: Do you mean it is two years now that you have

been/ •••

3 410 CORKE

been sending them or can you give me a date when you started

sending them? -- I think from the beginning of 1977 but I speak

under correction, I cannot be sure, I would need to go back to

my records.

You see, it is very confusing, we are in 1979 now.

MR WILSON: Yes, it would be 1977 and 1978. -- Yes. I think I

would say that I sent them at that time because of the -

because I liked the whole tenor of the way in which the place

was being run. I had confidence in the kind of activities which

they would undergo and we sent them accompanied by members (10)

of our staff.

Would you have done so if you felt there was any danger of

political indoctrination? -- No, I do not think I would. It was

in fact I who suggested to members of our staff that this would

be a good activity.

BY THE COURT: Are these then to the various classes or lectures

or activities that the Urban Resources Centre held at st Ansgars?

That is correct. Except that I think by the time we sent

them, the program had a new name, it was the Urban Community

Programmes rather than the Urban Resources Centre, but it (20)

was as a result of my experience with the Urban Resources Centre

that I allowed them to continue under the UCP.

Urban Community Program. -- That is correct.

Was that simply a sUbstitution of a name? -- No, it was

- it resulted as a merging of Urban Resources Centre with another

organisation which was also interested in that kind of work.

Can I just be clear. Are you then still the trustee in

this new body or what is the position? -- Yes, I am a trustee

in the new body.

MR WILSON: Was the Urban Resources Centre in any , way (30) '

what is called a front organisation for the Pan Africanist

Congress/ •••

3 411 CORKE

congress? -- No.

Did it to your knowledge have anything to do with the Pan

Africanist Congress? -- No.

BY THE COURT: Were you aware that Mr Mothopeng and Mr Matsobane

had been avowed supporters of the Pan African Congress? -- No.

And had been to Robben Island? -- No, I was not aware of

that.

MR WILSON: Did the Urban Resources Centre have any political

leanings or activities as far as you knew? -- I was conscious

of no political activity. (10)

Another thing that I do not know if you can give. evidence

as to this. Do you know whether there was any dissatisfaction

against Bantu Education amongst Black children in the Johannes­

burg area in 19767 -- I think I was conscious of that. I think

my particular position would have made me especially conscious

of it.

Do you know if Black children left the country to seek

education elsewhere? -- I could only go on hearsay.

It may have, I thought, have come to his knowledge through

meetings, M'Lord, where there was official or reliable (20)

information put before him, not hearsay; that is why I said I

was not sure if he could deal with it.

BY THE COURT: Wasn't it a practice of Boys High to send masters

for a year to particular schools in England? I remember another

master I knew there, I think he went to Eaton, you may know him,

because he went later , to St John's as well. -- That is right,

yes, there have been a number of those. Basically it is not

Pretoria Boys High which does that, it is the Council of

Education, the Witwatersrand Council of Education which is a ••

(intervenes) (30)

I did not say it was their idea. but there have been •• -­

Oh/ •••

3 412 CORKE

Oh, indeed, there have been a succession from Pretoria Boys

High. The intention is to allow people to gain experience

overseas and then come back to South Africa in order to •••

(intervenes)

Did you find your Bristol experience in any sense

enlightening or helpful for your •• ? -- I think professionally

I found it probably the most formative professional experience

of my life and I have maintained contact with Clifton College,

there is a good deal of to-ing and froing between Clifton and

South Africa, and I visited Clifton, we visit .. it and their (10)

staff do visit us.

And you found it extremely helpful. -- Yes, it is a very

special kind of school, it would be classed as one of the top ten

public schools in England and extremely efficient and I was

going to say progressive but that would not quite be the word,

but it certainly - experience gained there is most useful.

Anything in their teaching methods that you found new or

novel or interesting or of assistance? -- It was 18 years ago.

It is a long time ago. -- Yes. Basically the methods

were the same. I would say staff qualifications were (20)

generally better than one found here, the facilities of the

school were of course far in advance of the kind of thing which

was being offered even in so-called White education in this

country.

But that is a fairly exceptional school just as Eaton

was. That also had a ••• -- I think not, I think not. There

would be a number of other schools probably totalling 50 or 60

in Great Britain. Not only the independent public schools but

also the grammar schools and the direct grant schools which are

now being dismantled. (30)'

Well that is what I was thinking. Those gave one of the

best/ •••

3 413 CORKE

best educations and they are presently being . dismantled.

Indeed, yes.

THE COURT ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH. THE COURT RESUMES ' AT lShOO.

JOHANNES L. BRENNINKMEIJER: still under oath:

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PITMAN: No questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: No questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAAIMAN: No questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HAASBROEK: You testified that you

were a trustee and the treasurer •• -- That is right.

Of the Urban Resources Centre. Is that correct?

Yes, that is correct.

(10)

Until when were you the treasurer of the Urban Resources

Centre? -- Till April, 1976.

April, 1976. -- That is right.

Now, a certain letter was written by Mr Zeph Mothopeng on

the 11th December, 1975 to a certain Mr S. Andreas of the

HKKS Development Service in Switzerland. Do you know of such

a letter? -- I cannot remember.

Would you have been aware of any requests for further

funds ,by Mr Mothopeng as director of the URC? -- It would (20)

have been reported in the trustees meeting. Fund raising did

not totally belong to me, it was done very often by either the

chairman with the director or some other trustee, but I would

get the results when the money comes in, I would have to

handle it partiGularly.

You only handle the results? -- Yes, and I must say I was

in the beginning more involved with fund-raising th an towards

the second year of my tenure of office. Because we had to build

this up and once it ran letters were sent out under of course

the commands of the trustees as a whole and who did , it was (30)

immaterial.

In/ •••

3 414 BRENNINKMEIJER

In this particular letter, I am referring to EXHIBIT TTTT,

on page 3 of the letter, reference is made to a youth program

of the URC. -- Yes.

Do you know anything about the youth program : of the URC7

-- I know that the URC had a lot of young people involved in

its activities. URC had different projects that I know of.

It had an art centre training, where youth on Saturday

afternoons and sometimes during the week were trained in silk­

screening and all these kinds of arts, candlemaking, etc.

Secondly Kagiso there was a youth involvement in the sense (10)

that education was given, people who somehow had missed

studying for JC, making their examination, this kind of thing,

were helped particularly in afternoon and evening classes to

get them through the examinations. For the rest I would not

know any details of youth involvement.

Do you know whether Mr Mike Matsobane, accused No. 13,

was one of the persons who were responsible for the UBC? -- No.

Don't you know anything about •• : •• 7 -- It was not dis­

cussed in the trustees meetings.

•• involved in making or rather organising the (20)

youth scheme? -- That was never discussed at a trustees meeting

to my knowledge.

Were you aware of the fact that Mr Mothopeng was involved

in activities of PAC previously and that he was imprisoned on

Robben Island? -- Yes, we did. This was when he was accepted -

employment was accepted by the trustees this was mentioned.

And weren't you afraid that he could again make use of

the Urban Resources Centre or its sub-organisations to further

the aims and purposes of the PAC?

BY THE COURT: I do not think the word 'again' there is (30)'

apposite.

MR/ •••

3 415 BRENNINKMEIJER

MR HAASBROEK: Well, I refer to his previous detention. Anyway,

I will rephrase my question. Weren't you afraid that Mr

Mothopeng was in the position to make misuse of the URC in

order to further the aims of a banned organisation like the

PAC? -- To my knowledge when Mr Mothopeng was employed this was

- we were assured in the trustees meeting that the selection

committee had discussed this aspect of his previous life with

him; that the activities of our organisation called for no

further political involvement as far as our work was concerned.

What he did in his free time I do not know of course. (10)

Yes, Qbviously. ,-- But that as far as we were-concerned,

it would be the same situation, I understood it, as a teacher,

who, as far as his position and vocation as a teacher is con­

cerned in his school vis-A-vis his children, would stay out of

politics. What he did after hours would be his.

Yes, I accept that. -- That was my understanding of the

situation.

Do you know whether any fund s of the URC were paid out

to the Young African Christian Movement? -- I have no knowledge

of this and in my tenure of office it did not happen as (20)

far as I know.

And do you perhaps know accused No. 13, Mike Matsobane,

personally? I do not know him personally, I know him as a

fellow trustee from, let us say the end of 1975 onwards and he

appeared, as I already testified, I cannot be sure, two

meetings or only the first one, but surely not so many that I

could really get to know him well.

Did he at all say anything at any of those meetings that

you can remember? -- I am so sorry, I cannot remember.

And do you at all know accused No. 18, the gentleman (30) '

sitting at the other end there at the back? -- Yes, his face.

Is/ •••

3 416 BRENNINKMEIJER

Is he known to you1 His face I know.

Do you know that he is the brother of Mike Matsobane,

accused No. l3? -- Ja, I knew that Mike had a brother and that

the brother worked at •• (1) •• and White on Horizon and that he

was employed there, but I never met him personally so that I

could put a name to his face. I know his face.

So it is then in order that it can be accepted that you

know nothing about his private activities. Is that correct?

-- This is correct, yes.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILSON: No questions. (10)

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

MICHAEL ARTHUR STANTON CORKE: still under oath:

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PITMAN: No questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAAIMAN: No questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: No questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ACKERMANN: Do you know accused No. 18

in this matter right at the end there? -- No, I do not know him.

Do you know of the existence of the Agency for Industrial

Mission? -- Yes, I do.

Does that have anything to do with the Urban (20)

Resources Centre? That is the Agency for Industrial Mission. -­

I speak under correction. As I understand the present constitu­

tion of the Agency for Industrial Mission and the Urban

Community Program, there is some connection. I do not think

that for the period which we are talking about there was any

immediate link between the Agency for Industrial Mission and

the Urban Community Program - and the Urban Resources Centre

other than the fact that the Urban Resources Centre had its

origin in Wilgespruit which in turn is the organisation from

which the Agency for Industrial Mission has sprung. , That

1s how I understand it.

BY/ •••

( 30) '

3 417 BRENNINKMEIJER

BY THE COURT: What time are you talking about? -- I am

talking of the time between my joining the trustees of the

Urban Resources Centre and the time of its merger into another

organisation.

MR ACKERMANN: Who were the field workers for the Urban

Resources Centre, that is when you joined the trustees committee

in 1975? -- The accused, Mr Mothopeng, was the director and

certainly when it became the Urban Community Program then Leslie

Pitje was the deputy director who served under Mr Mothopeng.

Have you ever heard of the name Dan Matsobane? -- I (lO)

have heard of the name; I do not know Dan Matsobane.

And in what context did you hear the name Dan Matsobane?

I think he was connected with the Agency for Industrial

Mission.

Is there any connection between the Ur ban Resources Centre

and the South African Council of Churches? -- No, not that I

am aware of.

At no stage since you have become a member of the trustees

committee? -- There was correspondence in the early days between

the Urban Community Programe and the Joint Screening (20)

Committee of the South African Council of Churches, but the

connection was certainly a very distant connection.

And did you ever attend any activities undertaken 8S part

of the projects of the Urban Resources Centre? -- No, I only

visited the centre where the art work was being done, but I

never took part in any of the other activities.

You never attended any literacy classes? -- No.

Nothing of that sort. Now, I want to read to you a . very

brief exposition of the aims and objects of the organisation

YACM or as it became YARM, that is the Young African , (30) '

Christian Movement and I want to know whether this organisation

was/ •••

3 418 BRENNINKMEIJER

was the type of organisation that could have received financial

assistance from the Urban Resources Centre if only they approache

the URC for such a purpose. Now this was said by Mr Michael

Matsobane.

BY THE COURT: Mr Ackermann, I do not want to write

unnecessarily. What is the relevance of that?

MR ACKERMANN: M'Lord, the state is trying to establish that

there was connection between the Young African Christian

Movement or YARM on the one hand and URC on the other hand and

this was denied by accused No. 13 as well as other (10)

witnesses but they also said that they were in dire need

of money.

BY THE COURT: But how does it matter that you ask Mr Corke

that he might have given money to Michael if he asked for it?

How does that help when I understand from the previous wit-

ness, this treasurer, he never heard of YARM or YARM, therefore

by implication he had never given money to them? What does it

matter if Mr Corke says well, yes, if they had asked, we might

have. I do not understand how it takes the matter any further.( 2

MR ACKERMANN: M'Lord, I will leave the matter there.

BY THE COURT: Unless you can persuade me. I do not want to

write an enormous amount of stuff, unless you can persuade me

that it is directly relevant. I do not see why I must be

obliged to write an awful lot of stuff that is not relevant.

MR ACKERMANN: It could only be of help to reflect on the

honesty of accused No. 13 in the sense that if he had to

obtain financial assistance why didn't he do so as far as URC

was concerned.

BY THE COURT: Well, I do not know. Was he ever asked (30)

whether he had asked? I know you asked him whether he had got

money/ •••

3 419

money from the World Council of Churches.

MR ACKERMANN: SACC, yes.

CORKE

BY THE COURT: Well, whatever it is called, but I am ,sorry, I

still do not see the relevance. Mr Corke would probably say to

you - well, I do not see the pOint, it is a hypothetical

question. Mr - the bishop has told us - I think it is the

bishop - that he does not know YACM and h edoes not know YARM.

So no doubt your Learned Senior would have, that being so,

did not worry to ask him whether any money - he asked for

money or he does not know. So how does it help to ask (10)

this witness who was not even treasurer, to say whether they

would have done something if an application had been made.

MR ,ACKERMANN: Yes, M'Lord, I will not proceed with the

question. It was the last question.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILSON: You were asked about the South

African Council of Churches and you made mention of the

Screening Committee. -- Yes.

Was the position that •• (intervenes)

BY THE COURT: Oh, I thought the Screening Committee was the

one that he was referring to in the Urban Resources (20)

Centre.

MR WILSON: No, it was the Screening Committee I think of the

South African Council of Churches. -- That is correct.

Was the position, if I could just clarify it for Your

Lordship, that at the commencement when the Urban Resources

Centre attempted to obtain funds for itself, the South African

Council of Churches attempted to exercise some control through

the South African Council of Churches Screening Committee? -­

That is as I understand it.

BY THE COURT: I beg your pardon? (30) '

MR WILSON: The South African Council of Churches has a body

called/ •••

3 420 CORKE

called a Screening Committee which, as I understand it, screens

requests for donations and that at the commencement they

attempted to exercise such authority over the Urban Resources

Centre, when the Urban Resources Centre made requests to

churches overseas, the South African Council of Churches

purported to have authority to screen their request for funds.

BY THE COURT: Is that sOl I do not know whether you know. -­

Not in the time that I was a trustee, but my understanding was

that this had occurred before my joining the Board of Trustees.

MR WILSON: And the Urban Resources Centre objected to (10)

this. -- As I understand it, yes.

BY THE COURT: Well that is hearsay so we can cross all that out.

MR WILSON: Well, during your period they certainly did not go

through the South African Council of Churches at all when they

wanted funds.

BY THE COURT: Oh, I am sorry, the word 'Screening Committee'

where I got confused, you said that Mr Mothopeng had been •• -­

He had been the director.

No, when you were asked about - the bishop mentioned the

screening •• (intervenes) (20)

MR WILSON: No, M'Lord, this witness mentioned - he wai asked

by my Learned Friend •• (intervenes)

BY THE COURT: ••• Mr Mothopeng's previous convictions and

there was mention made of a •• (intervenes)

MR WILSON: Oh, that is another screening, that is a screening

for employment, so there was confusion. No, this was merely to

make it clear that there was no connecti6n.

BY THE COURT: So the Screening Committee you are talking about

now has nothing to do with the committee the bishop was talking

about. (30)

MR WILSON: No.

BY/ •••

3 421 CORKE

BY THE COURT: In regard to employment.

MR WILSON: No. But during your period there was no connection

with the South African Council of Churches. -- No.

BY THE COURT: How do you mean no connection? -- Well, there

was correspondence but certainly about old outstanding matters

but there was no immediate connection, no line connection

between UCP and the SACC.

BY THE COURT: In any case if you wanted to get money from

people or apply for money from people wherever they may be,

you did not feel required to get the consent of the South (10)

African Council of Churches. -- No.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

THE COURT ADJOURNS.

3 4 2 TSOLETSANE

THE COURT RESUMES ON THE 23 r d JANUARY, 1979.

RODNEY TSOLETSANE: sworn states: (Through Interpreter)

EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: What is your date of birth?

11th November, 1956.

And where were you born? -- Born in Kagiso in Krugersdorp.

And have you stayed in Kagiso throughout your lifetime? -­

I have stayed in Kagiso all my life.

And did you also attend school in Kagiso all the time? -­

That is so.

It is common cause that you attended school at

Masupatsela High School in 1976. -- That is so.

When did you start attending school at Masupatsela High

School? -- In 1972.

And in what class were you in 1972? -- I was in Form 1.

(10)

BY THE COURT: That is the beginning, is it, of the school? --

That is the beginning of the school.

MR SKWEYIYA: And did you remain at Masupatsela High School

until you were in Form 5? That is so.

And during your stay at Masupatsela High School did you

take part in any student bodies or activities? -- Yes, I (20)

did take part.

In which particular activity did you take part? -- The

debating society, in sport I was a tennis player.

And dealing with the debating society, what was your

speCiality in debate? I specialised in politics, current

affairs and history. "

And how often were these debates held in your school? -­

Once every week.

By THE COURT: Can you just tell me something? What is form

5 in relation to matric? -- Form 5 is matric. (30) "

I get a bit confused. Is that form 5 then the year in

which/ •••

3 423 TSOLETSANE

which you do matric? -- Form 5 is the year in which a person

completes m~tric.

It is sometimes called standard 10, is it?

MR SKWEYIYA: Yes, that is right, M'Lord. Now, did you hold

any special position in the debating society at any stage? -­

Yes.

What p0sition? -- In 1977 I was elected chairman of the

debating society.

And what was the general student's awareness insofar as

current affairs were concerned and historical matters (10)

were concerned? Or to put it simply, did they show any interest

generally? -- Yes, they did.

And was it common that there were frequent debates either

in classrooms or on sportsfields and behind classrooms and

laboratories?

BY THE COURT: Discussions you mean?

MR SKWEYIYA: Discussions, yes. -- There were current dis­

cussions.

On various topics? -- On various topics.

Now, do you know a person known as Sabina Makhubane? (20)

Yes, I do.

And in what way do you know her? -- When I was in the form

4 class she was in the same class as myself and we occupied the

same desk and we used to attend to our problems in maths,

biology and physical science together.

And where did you attend to these problems? We did these

problems, we tackled them in class or I would go to her if I

encountered any problems at home and she would in turn also

come to me if she has any problems that is at home.

And did you meet each other frequently to discuss your (30) '

problems? I mean after school. -- Yes, we did.

And/ •••

3 424 TSOLETSANE

And where was she staying at the time that you used to

discuss your problems togethe~? -- She was staying at Bro

Mike's place.

Is that accused No. l5? -- That is so.

So is the position then that you frequented accused No.

l3's place? -- That is the position.

And did she also come to your place frequently? -- That

is correct.

Do you know one Jonas Letswalo? -- I do know Jonas Letswalo.

He has given evidence in this court, he said that he at(lO)

times helped you and Sabina with Maths. -- That is correct.

And was this at accused No. l3's place? -- This was at

accused No. l3's place.

And he also said that at some stage he fell in love with

Sabina. Is this correct? -- That is correct.

So is the position then that in fact Jonas used to see you

frequently at accused No. l3's place? -- That is so.

NOW, Rodney, do you know about YARM or YACM? You know

about the existence of that organisation? -- Yes, I know when

it was introduced at school. (20)

Were you ever a member of YARM at any stage? -- Yes.

When did you for the first time ever become a member of

YARM? -- This was some time in November, 1976.

At the time that you joined YARM in November 1976 to your

knowledge did it have anything to do with PAC or SASM or SCM?

No.

And to your knowledge did it have anything to do with the

bulk buying scheme? -- Not as far as I know.

Literacy scheme? -- Not.

Urban Resources Centre?

Sewing scheme? -- No.

No. (30 ).

It/ •••

3 425 TSOLETSANE

It is also common cause that on the 5th August, 1976

you were elected a member of an SRC at Tsoletsega School. Is

that correct? -- That is correct.

As a member of that body did you ever form a part of a

delegation which went to meet a divisional commander of police,

one Colonel Morkel? -- Yes.

Are you able to remember more or less when this was? -­

This was in about September/October, 1976.

And who else went there with you that you can remember? --

I was together with Mothlagegi Thlale. (10)

No. 16. Felicia Sehume, Mr Matsobane, Mike.

No. 13. And Mr Mothlathledi.

BY THE COURT: Who was he?

MR SKWEYIYA: What was his first name? -- Moses Mothlathledi.

And in what capacity had he gone to see the colonel? -­

He had gone there as a member of the Parents' Association.

Is this what we have heard in this court to be known as

KAPA? -- That was KAPA.

Now what was the purpose of your going to see the divisiona l

commander? -- We had gone to talk to the police (20)

commissioner to firstly secure the release of the students who

had been arrested and to ask him that the police should not

frequent the schools or to be seen in the vicinity of the

schools because children who are in school get scared and start

running away when they see the police.

You were detained - when were you detained for the first

time? -- I was detained in the early hours of the morning of

the 23rd June, 1977.

And were you thereafter released ? -- I was thereafter

released.

And when were you released? -- On the 25th of the same

month/ •••

( 30) '

3 426 TSOLETSANE

month.

And were you thereafter re-detained? -- That is 50.

When was this? -- This was on the 1st July, 1977.

And have you been in detention since the 1st July, 1977

to date hereof? -- Up to today I have been detained since then.

Now do you know one Felicia Sehume? -- Yes, I do know her.

Do you know if she was detained at any stage and then

released? -- Yes, she was.

Do you know when she was first detained to your knowledge?

-- I think this was in December, 1976. And then she was (10)

released in January, 1977.

And do you know if she was re-detained thereafter? -- Yes,

I do know that she was detained thereafter.

Now next let us deal with Felicia Sehume. She has given

evidence in this court and among the things she stated, she

alleged that you were present at a meeting at accused No. l3's

house in about March, 1976, where there were present between

12 and 15 students and where it was stated that an organisation

known as YACM had ch anged and called itself YARM. It was

fUrther stated at that meeting that that body was to (20)

revive PAC, through itself and through a body known as SASM.

It was also stated at that meeting that PAC has an army outside

South Africa and it needed students to join it and it was also

stated at that very same meeting that YACM had branches in

Germiston and Natalspruit and it would soon be opening a bulk

buying scheme. Were you ever at such a meeting? -- I was never

at such a meeting.

Were you ever at any meeting with Felicia Sehume where

PAC was discussed? Not at all.

Where it was said that YARM is a front for , the PAC? ,(30) '

Or where anybody in your presence and in the presence of Felicia

was/ •••

3 427 TSOLETSANE

was encouraged to undergo military training outside the

Republic of South Africa? -- No, I was never at any such

meeting.

And were you ever involved in a discussion with one

Benjamin Manamela, B.G., where Benjamin said that rn is going

to leave the country for military training and tried to

encourage you and Felicia to do the same? -- No.

And were you ever at a meeting with anybody, including

Felicia where it was said that SASM and YARM and SCM worked

hand in glovel -- No. (10)

Jonas Letswalo has also given evidence in this court. He

said that you and he and others, including form 2 and form 3

students, in about April/May, 1976 were present at a meeting

behind classrooms where it was called upon students to join

YACM. Do you know anything about that? -- I know nothing about

tha t.

And were you ever present at any meeting anywhere,

including accused No. l3's place, where it was said that YARM

or YACM is a front for PAC? -- No, I was never at any such

meeting. (20)

Or where anybody was encouraged in your presence to go

and undergo military training. -- No, I was never at any such

meeting.

Did you at any time before November, 1976 ever tell Jonas

Letswalo that YACM had changed to YARM? -- No, I did not.

Did you ever regard at any stage even after November,

Jonas Letswalo as a member of YARM?

BY THE COURT: Jonas or Johannes?

MR SKWEYIYA: Jonas, M'Lord. -- No, I did not at any stage know

him to be a member of this organisation. (30)'

And were you ever involved in several meetings with him

and/ •••

3428 TSOLETSANE

and others where people were encouraged to join YACM before

November? -- Not at all.

Were you ever at a meeting together with accused No. 13,

accused No. 15 at James Sejanamane's house where there was a

report back meeting about the number of students who had

joined or had been recruited to YARM? -- I was not at that

meeting.

It is common cause that you were at a meeting on the 5th

August, 1976 at Tsoletsega School. -- That is correct.

Old you at any stage at that meeting hear James (10)

Sejanamane encouraging students to go on rioting or saying that

it was a good thing which students were involved in? -- I did

not hear him say any such a thing.

And were you ever at a joint meeting of KAPA and your

SRC at accused No. 13's place where it was mentioned that

the children must be taken across the border to run away from

the police? -- No, I was not present.

Do you know Adam Kunupi? -- I do know Adam Kunupi.

Were you ever at a meeting with him anywhere where PAC

ideals were ever propagated or where people were encouraged (20)

to join PAC, or where it was said that YARM is a cover for the

PAC1 No.

Or where a demonstration of making of petrol bombs was

done by accused No. 131 -- No, I was not there.

On the 17th June, 1976 were you involved in the theft of

liquor from a bottle store at Kagiso? -- No, I was not there.

Or were you involved in the destruction of any government

bUilding or non-government building at Kagiso? -- I was never

there in that place.

Were you ever involved in the destruction of any (30)

type of property in Kagiso or outside Kagiso in 1976 at any time 7

--/ ...

3 429

-- I was not at such place.

TSOLETSANE

Do you know accused No. I? -- I do not know accused No.1.

You should know him now, but when did you start knowing

him1 Let me ask the question that way: when did you start

knowing accused No. 11 -- I came to know accused No. 1 on the

6th December, 1977 when I made my first appearance in court.

And before that had you ever had any dealings with

accused No. 11 -- Not at all.

Now, insofar as accused No. 2 to 12 are concerned, did

you know them before the 6th December, 1976? -- I did not (10)

know them.

And had you ever - well, it is obvious that you never had

any connection or dealings with them before that date. -- That

is correct.

Now, you, accused No. 15 and accused No. 16 were at the

same school. Is that correct? -- That is so.

And you were all senior students. Is that correct? -- That

is so.

And were you all involved with the debating society?

That is so.

THE WITNESS STANDS DOWN.

THE COURT ADJOURNS FOR TEA. THE COURT RESUMES.

DANIEL MATSOBANE: sworn states: (Through Interpreter)

EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: When and where were you born?

I was born in Munsieville on the 8th December, 1946.

And where did you obtain your primary school education?

At the Phatudi Community School.

Is that in Kagiso? -- In Munsieville.

In the Krugersdorp area? -- Yes.

(20)

And where did you go for your high school education? (30) '

-- I started at the Munsieville Secondary School and then later

proceeded/ •••

3 430 MATSOBANE

proceeded to Kagiso to the Masupatsela High School.

And is that where you matriculated? -- I matriculated at

Bethal.

Is that Bethal Training College? -- Yes.

And from where did you go to? Did you go to university?

BY THE COURT: Where is Bethal Training College? -- It is in

the Western Transvaal at Bodenstein.

MR SKWEYIYA: From there did you go to university? -- Yes, I

did.

To which university? -- University of the North. (0)

And the year that you left what courses were you doing? -­

Philosophy and Tswana.

And were those your proposed major subjects? -- Yes, those

were my major subjects.

And in which year did you leave the University of the

North? -- In 1972.

And after you left the university did you then start work­

ing? -- Yes.

Where did you work? -- I worked for Hollowmore and Company.

BY THE COURT: Is that in Johannesburg? -- In Krugersdorp. (20)

MR SKWEYIYA: Is that in fact Hall, Long, Moore and Company?

Hall, Long, Moore and Company.

Did you leave that employment after some time? -- Yes, I

did.

And where did you work thereafter? -- At the Wilgespruit

Fellowship Centre.

From when did you start working at the Wilgespruit Fellow­

ship Centre? -- Towards the end of 1973.

And as what were you employed? -- I started as a clerk

and I was later appointed a field officer. (30) '

Of which particular program? -- The Urban Industr~al Mission

Did/ •••

3 431 MATSOBANE

Did that concern adult education? -- There was adult

education in that program.

Were you in charge of the Urban Industrial Mission

program? -- There was a director and I was working under the

supervision of the director.

Who was the director? -- The Rev. Dale White.

And in your position did you have to attend and conduct

meetings at that centre? -- Yes, that is true.

And were you at some stage involved in a literacy program

course? -- Yes. (10)

And during the operation of that program or any other

program with which you were involved, did you have to keep notes

and give reports to those who employed you? -- Yes.

And I show you a document, do you recognise that document?

Yes, I do.

As what do you recognise it? -- These are minutes of a

training course.

BY THE COURT: EXHIBIT LLLLL. -- A training course for the

literacy program. This was for the teachers.

MR SKWEYIYA: And were those notes prepared by you and (20)

thereafter circulated amongst various people? -- Yes.

And were those notes also given to your employers? Yes.

You were also - M'Lord, I hand that in. It deals with the

dialogue, methods and what happened during that course and so on.

Were you also at some stage trained as a literacy teacher? --Yes.

And did you qualify as such? -- Yes.

And after qualifying did you have to teach others? -- Yes,

it is true.

And whilst you were being trained, were you the only person

who was being trained there? -- No, there were also other (30)'

people from different organisations.

Can/ •••

3 432 MATSOBANE

Can you give us some of the organisations who sent people

for training in that course? There were, besides the

organisation from which I came, a Lutheran organisation that

had sent people for training, there were people from the Anglo­

American Corporation also sent there for training, there were

people from suburbs from Johannesburg who had also been sent

there to be trained. Those are the organisations I can

remember.

And briefly what did this course entail? Let me rather

ask this question: what did the activities of the

Urban Industrial Mission amount to? -- I would say it was an

approach by the churches to look into industry.

And do what? -- It was discovered in the course of time

(10)

in the churches that the congregants spent little time in

church, only about 30 minutes and this resulted in the congre­

gants being not known by its leaders. The churches then sought

a manner in which they would do some ministry in industry.

In what way did they do this ministry in industry? -­

Before doing that they wanted to know firstly what was happening

in industry. The Urban Industrial Mission took some time (20)

conducting a research into industry.

And was this the corporation of industries and the various

industries? -- Yes, it was.

Did you have to go to factories at times in the course of

your work? -- Yes, that is correct.

And did you during the course of your business there meet

with the authorities and employers? -- Yes, we met those who

were in the management and also the workers.

Did you ultimately engage in encouraging workers of

various places of employment to better themselves? -- Yes, (30) ,

we did.

Were/ •••

3 433 MATSOBANE

Were you encouraged by the owners and employers in

industry? -- Yes, this was encouraged. There was later a

legislation that there should be liaison committees, works

committees so that there would be communication between the

workers and those in the management.

And were part of your duties to make employees aware of

the existence of these bodies and to make use of them? -- Yes.

Now you yourself whilst you were doing all these things,

were you engaged in any private studies? -- Yes, I was engaged

in study. (10)

And where did you study? -- With Unisa.

And which building did you use for study purposes? In

the evenings? -- I was using the Kagiso Library.

And as a result of your studies there did you experience

in meeting other people, did you decide on anything? -- Yes, I

personally encountered problems as a result of reading alone or

studying alone. This was because I was not used to studying

alone, I had previously been lectured by either a teacher or

had somebody helping me. When I started studying with Unisa

I was either the only person or there were not many studying (20 )

with Unisa in Kagiso.

Did you find that students were doing lower classes with

some problems? -- Yes, they used to come to me while I was

studying. I think it was because they had known me to have

been in the university and also studying with a university, so

they came to me with their problems for me to help them. This

made me not have sufficient time to study.

As a result of that did you become involved in night

classes and trying to organise night classes? -- As a result

of these students coming to me, I decided to get people from (30)

outside, people from other universities to come and lecture these

students/ •••

3 434 MATSOBAN8

students. I had thought it wise to have study groups and my aim

was to start teaching people after having had these study groups.

It is common cause that night classes were held at Kagiso

for people doing various subjects. -- Yes.

And were there any people who had never been to school

who also wanted to be educated? -- Yes, that is correct.

And what did you do about this? How was this problem

solved in other words? -- After having met on the question of

having classes at school in the evening elderly people who

were not educated started coming. This is because they (10)

thought there were classes from Sub A upwards. I had at the

time already been trained as a literacy teacher. I was also

then giving lessons in JC and matric classes.

And did you then encourage other students who were at a

high educational level to try and help those people who had

never been to school? -- Yes, that is correct.

And did any of them become keen and what did they do as

a result of becoming keen? -- A few became keen and were

interested in helping. I also then had a lot of work.

And are you able to remember some of the people who (20)

became keen and ul~imately trained as literacy teachers? Yes,

Mado Mosweu, Christopher Seboka, Elizabeth Raborifi, Errol

Letseleha and others.

Did they in fact go and train as teachers? -- Yes.

And did they in turn try and help others who had never

been to school? -- Yes.

Do you know a person known as Angela Norman? -- Yes, I do.

From where do you know her or in what connection rather?

-- I know her as a literacy instructor.

Did you ever have dealings with her? -- Yes. (30) '

In what connection? -- It was in connection with training

the/ •••

3 435 MATSOBAN.E

the people whose names I have mentioned as literacy teachers.

Were these classes which were conducted at Kagiso open to

everyone? -- Yes.

And were they conducted at the school where they were held

with permission from the principals of the scho6ls concerned? -­

Yes, they were.

Were they held in normal - during normal hours or after

work? -- Yes.

Do you know anything about the bulk buying scheme? -- Yes.

What was the bulk buying scheme? -- I would say it was (10)

an organisation by people who had come together who would put

money together and buy in bulk.

Were you ever involved in the bulk buying scheme, you

yourself? -- Yes.

Were you in fact present at the launching of this scheme at

Kagiso at the residence of one Mrs Raborifi? -- Yes, I was.

Was this meeting at which this scheme was launched, open

to any member of the public? -- Yes.

Are you able to mention 2 or 3 or .4 different types of

people who you remember who were there at that meeting (20)

launching the scheme? -- There was a minister of religion, a

social worker, a policeman, a teacher and ordinary people.

To your knowledge was this scheme ever involved in

politics or rather did it have anything to do with PAC? -- No.

Were you ever a member of PAC? -- No.

Were you ever convicted for PAC activities? -- No.

Insofar as the literacy course is concerned, do you know

if that scheme was connected in any way with PAC? No.

Was either the literacy course, the bulk buying sc~eme,

the sewing class scheme and other schemes mentioned in (30) '

Schedule 1 ever connected with PAC in any way? -- No, none of

them/ •••

3 436

them was connected with the PAC.

MATSOBANE

In other words the bulk buying scheme, literacy scheme,

sewing scheme and the youth awareness scheme or program, I

do not know what it is called. -- only know of the first three

you have mentioned, the last one I have no knowledge of.

Did you contact or come into contact with officials with

regards people employed at factories in regard to food parcels

and so on7 -- Yes.

In what way was there a connection? -- As I have already

said, the Industrial Mission covered a wide field. It had (10)

been discovered that the migrant workers who were in places

like Johannesburg had families of theirs left at their homes

who were suffering hunger. It was decided that these families

should be given help by making food parcels and having these

sent to the homes of the migrant workers.

How were these parcels sent to the families of these men?

These parcels would be sent to commissioners.

Is that the Bantu Affiars Commissioner? -- Yes, at the

places where the families are resident and then they would be

given to ministers of religion for distribution amongst (20)

the families.

It is also common cause that at some stage you were coopted

into the association of a body known as KAPA. -- Yes, that is

correct.

Now did this body, to your knowledge, ever ' have anything

to do with PAC? -- No.

And were you coopted into that committee in fact? -- Yes"

I was.

And can you remember where you were coopted? -- This was

in the community hall at Kagiso. (30)'

' Were you ever in,volved in a course know!1 as the leadership

training/ •••

3 437 MATSOBANE

training course? -- Yes.

Where was this course held? -- It was held at Wilgespruit.

And was this in the course of your duties as an employee

of that centre? -- Yes.

And was this course a closed course as it were, you know,

only open to certain people, or was it an open course for

whoever wanted to make use of it? -- It was open to anybody.

Did that course ever have anything to do with PAC or

propagation of PAC aims and ideas? -- No.

Now, we have heard a lot of evidence here about an (10)

organisation known as YARM or YACM. Were you ever at any stage

a member or supporter of that organisation? -- No.

And it is common cause also~at this organisation held a

seminar at Wilgespruit and that you were present during this

seminar. In what capacity were you present when this seminar

was held at Wilgespruit? -- I was present as an employee at

the place.

And Sejanamane has given evidence in this court to the fact

that it seemed as though you were helping accused No. 13 in

the establishment of YARM or YACM. Is that correct? -- (20)

No, that is false.

In fact he went so far as to say that at one stage there

was a meeting held at Aaron Khoza's parents's house where you

were present and where you offered to arrange for Wi1gespruit

to be a venue for various activities. Is that correct? -- That

is not true.

There was also evidence by a boy known as Adam Kunupi who

said that you were present at a meeting at accused No. 13's

Place where there was discussion about PAC and when you

encouraged him to go and undergo military training. Do (30 ) .

you know anything about that? That is not true.

And/ •••

3 438 MATSOBAN8

And he also said that at some other occasion you were

present at accused No. 13's house when accused No. I was

present and was introduced as a leader of PAC. Is that true?

That is not true.

Were you ever at a meeting where either Adam Kunupi or

Papuis Seroka were present or Jonas Letswalo, where accused No.

I was present? -- No.

And where PAC was discussed and people going out of the

country for military training was discussed? -- No.

Did you ever encourage anybody, including Adam Kunupi (10)

to go and undergo military training? -- No, I did not.

It is also common cause that at some stage Adam Kunupi

came to you or to your place and tried to persuade you to help

him to get out of this country. -- Yes, he did come to me.

And how did you deal with that situation? -- He had said

h e wanted to go to Botswana but did not say why he wanted to

go to Botswana and I said he can make preparations, I will see

if I can take him with me to Botswana over a weekend. By

making preparations I meant that he should get his papers,

documents for the journey ready. (20)

Yes, and then? -- He then told me that he had no travel

documents and then I wanted to know from him how he expected to

go to Botswana without a travel document. He then said that he

thought I knew how people could go to Botswana without travel

documents. I then told him that I did not know of any such a

thing. He then left me. He came back again on another day

and he still was telling me the same story that he wanted to

leave but that he had no documents. I then told him that he can

by no means leave for Botswana or go to Botswana without the

necessary documents and I also could not understand why (30)'

he wanted to go to Botswana without these documents. He then

said/ •••

3 439 MATSOBANE

said that he is fleeing from the police. I then asked him what

he had done to the police. He then said that he was arrested

or he had been arrested and was afraid that he might be arrested

again. I then asked him not to leave but to stay at his home

because h e would not just be arrested for no reason.

You never helped him in any way? -- Yes, I did not.

Did you ever make use of any of the projects you have

already referred to well knowing those projects to be aimed at

the eventual promotion of the aims and objects of the PAC?

BY THE COURT: I thought he said they were not. (10)

MR SKWEYIYA: M'Lord, in that case.

BY THE COURT: He has said already that none of those things

were involved or concerned with PAC so that I would have thought

that this question now is redundant.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILSON: In connection with the

Industrial Mission you have told us you made enquirles at

factories and things. As I understand it, it made these

enquiries in cooperation with the industrialists who owned the

factories and it reported its findings to the owners of the

factories. -- Yes. (20)

Now you know accused No.1, don't you? -- Yes, I do.

Where did you meet him? At Wilgespruit.

And who introduced you? The Rev. Dale White.

And this was after he had become the director of the Ur ban

Resources Centre, wasn't it? No.1. -- Yes, it was.

And he was going -to be carrying on certain activities at

St Ansgars next door to you. -- Yes, that is true.

And you would both be doing community work of one sort or

another in the Kagiso and Kt- ugersdorp area. Yes.

And did he come along to introduce himself to the (30}

people at Wilgespruit? -- Yes.

Did/ •••

3 440 MATSOBANE

Did accused No. 1 later approach your director for assistanc '

with his bulk buying scheme?

BY THE COURT: Is that Mr White?

MR WILSON: Mr White, yes. -- Yes.

Was the position that his field worker who had done the

preliminary work had left him in the lurch? -- Yes.

That is his field worker in Kagiso. -- Yes.

And did h e approach your director and asked Mr White to

lend your services to the Urban Resources Centre to help launch

the bulk buying scheme? -- Yes. (10)

And did Mr White agree to this? -- Yes, he did.

And did you then help launch the bulk buying scheme?

Yes, I did.

And at the opening meeting, the launching meeting did

accused No. I make a speech, telling the people what it was all

about? -- Yes.

And did h ealso tell them about the other services the

Urban Resources Centre offered at St Ansgars? -- Yes.

Now thereafter was a steering committee elected from the

people present who were interested? -- Yes. (20)

And did most of these people have a say in the running of

the bulk buying scheme? -- Yes.

And you continued to administer it, didn't you, or to guide

them? -- Yes.

And they had meetings every week and distributed the food

they bought every Saturday, is that correct? -- Yes.

And is it correct that after the first meeting, accused

No. 1 did not have anything more to do with the running of the

SCheme? -- Yes, he did not.

He did not attend any more meetings or have any more (30)'

say in how it was run. -- No, he did not. That was the only

and/ •.•

3 441 MATSOBANE

and the last time that he was at a meeting.

The position is he launched the meeting and then left the

people to run it themselves under your guidance. -- Yes.

The other scheme you talked about, the literacy scheme,

this had nothing to do with th e Urban Resources Centre, did

it? -- No, it did not.

And after you had launched the successful bulk buying

scheme, were you also pulled in to help with a sewing scheme?

Yes.

And was this again to be a scheme which Urban (10)

Resources Centre would start by providing the initial capital

and that the people should then run themselves? -- Yes, that is

true.

And was the idea here that women who were skilled at

sewing and had sewing-machines would sew school clothing and

similar clothing which would be sold cheaply to other members

of the community? -- That is true.

And did you do some investigations and find there was a

potential market for this clothing? -- Yes.

In fact did you sign up a contract with the schools (20)

to buy school clothing from the scehem? -- Yes, I did.

And again is it correct that apart from providing the

initial money to buy the first lot of materials, accused No. 1

had nothing to do with the scheme, the actual managing? -- Yes,

that is true. The initial sum of money that wa5 given was only

a loan.

That had to be banked and later accounted for. -- Yes.

It was the working capital. -- Yes, that is so.

And I think you have told us you have never he~rd of any

youth awareness scheme connected with the Urban Resources (30)

Centre. -- Yes, I had not.

The! •••

3 442 MATSOBANE

The last point I do not know if you can give us some

information .that may clarify a little of what has gone before.

st Ansgars, you know the place? -- Yes, I do.

Do you know that in terms of the relevant laws it is an

area where Blacks are allowed to stay? -- Yes.

And one last •• (intervenes)

BY THE COURT: Wilgespruit as wel17

MR WILSON: No, M'Lord, I understand the position is that they

can have seminars and things at Wilgespruit but that they

cannot reside there, but at St Ansgars, the nextdoor (10)

property is subject to a different classification in terms of

the various •• (intervenes)

BY THE COURT: But can't they stay there over weekends while

attending seminars7

MR WILSON: They may be able to stay for that purpose.

BY THE COURT: That is what I mean.

MR WILSON: There is a classification difference between the

two properties that is why sometimes one was used rather than

others, one of the many complications of that legislation.

The last thing I would like to ask you about is the (20)

literacy scheme. Was the purpose of this to teach what was

known as functional literacy? Yes, that is so.

Was this the people were to acquire the skills of reading

and writing which were functional 1n their daily life and in

their employment? Yes, that is so.

THE COURT ADJOURNS.

3 443 MAGEZA

THE COURT RESUMES ON THE 24th JANUARY, 1979.

TEMPLETON MAGEZA: sworn states: (Through Interpreter)

EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: Were you a student at Masupatsela

High School in 1976? -- Yes.

Do you know of an organisation known as either YARM or

YACM? -- Yes, I do.

How did you come to know about it? -- It was introduced

to all the students at school by Mr Matsobane.

Was this in 1976? -- Yes.

BY THE COURT: Is that Mike Matsobane? -- Yes. (l0)

MR SKWEYIYA: Were you yourself ever a member of YARM or YACM?

No.

Do you know a person known as Jonas Letswalo? -- Yes.

Is he a friend of yours? -- Yes, he is a close friend of

mine.

And is he still a friend of yours? -- Yes, though the

friendship has now changed.

When last did you see him for instance? -- Late yesterday.

I am going to read to you what he said in this court and

I want to hear what you say about that. M'Lord, I am (20)

referring to Vblume 37, page 1 631. He said to this court:

"I asked two of my friends at school,

Templeton Mageza and Allan Eastern to

accompany me to Mike's place. On our

way to Mike's place we met a friend of

ours, Patrick Tlhapane. He joined us

and went with us to Mike's place. We

found Mike at his place. There I

introduced these friends of mine to

him. These friends of mine stay in

Munsieville but Tlhapane does not stay

in/ •••

(30) .

3 444

in Munsieville. He told us that

Munsieville is a bad location.

BY THE COURT: Mike did? -- Mike

told us this."

Then he carried on and said this:

"And that this location Imust be

revived. He also said that there

are many naughty children in that

location. He said all this after

he had told us that he is in a hurry.

He then suggested or said that it

would be wise for us to join YARM

because we are senior students and

then we shall start this movement

in Munsieville."

MAGEZA

Now did Jonas Letswalo ever try to convince you to join YARM

or YACM? -- No, he never did.

Did you ever go with him together with Patrick Tlhapane

(10)

and Allan Eastern to Mike's place where Mike said this thing

which I have read to you? -- I never went to Mike's place (20)

with Patrick Tlhapane or Allan who is my brother. I went twice

to Mike's place in the company of Jonas.

Now we have heard in this court that Jonas Letswalo and

one Sabina Makhubane fell in love, became lovers. Do you know

anything about that? -- Yes, I know about that.

Were you in some ·way instrumental in the two falling in

love? -- Yes, I was.

Now, what sort of person would you describe Jonas

Letswalo as? -- I knew him as a person who did not h~ve

interests in many other things but only in his books.

He for instance had no interest in girls.

Now/ ••

(30 ) .

3 445 MAGEZA

Now just one last question. Since he was released from

detention - you know that he was in detention for some time

and then he was released some time. You know that7 -- Yes, I

know that.

And you say that you have met him and spoken to him I

presume. -- Yes.

I am going to ask you whether he made a report to you

about his treatment in detention. I do not want you to tell

us what he said, but whether he made a report to you with

regard to treatment in detention. -- As old friends, after (10)

his release he went to look for me and after finding me I also

wanted to know how life treated him for the last 11 months.

And he 1made a report to you. -- Which he also told me.

THE WITNESS STANDS DOWN.

ALLAN EASTERN: sworn states: (Through Interpreter)

EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: Were you a student at Masupatsela

High School in 19767 -- Yes.

And have you ever heard of an organisation or body known

as YARM or YACM1 -- Yes.

Where did you hear about it? -- At school. (20)

Was this when Mike Matsobane had come to introduce YACM

at your school? -- Yes.

Were you yourself ever a member of YARM or YACM1 No.

Do you know a person known as Jonas Letswal01 -- Yes, I do.

Is he a friend of yours; -- No, he is a friend of my elder

brother.

By your elder brother you are referring to Templeton; --

Yes.

Now, Jonas Letswalo has given evidence in this court to

the effect that he one day was together with you and your (30)

brother Templeton when you were walking to Mike Matsobane's

house/ •••

3 446 EASTERN

house and you met one Patrick Tlhapane on the way and then you

all went to Mike Matsobane's place where Mike Matsobane started

saying to you people that Munsieville is a bad township and

that he wants to start YARM or YACM in the township Munsie­

ville and that he wanted you to join YARM because you were

senior students. Do you know anything about that? -- No, I

do not know about that.

Do you know this person known as Patrick Tlhapane? -- No,

I do not know him.

THE WITNESS STANDS DOWN. (10)

SABINA MAKHUBANE: sworn states: (Through Interpreter)

EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: Do you know accused No. 13,

Mike Matsobane? -- Yes, I know him.

Is he your brother-in-law? -- Yes, he is.

Betwe en about February, 1976 and December, 1976

were you staying at his house in Kagis07 -- Yes.

And at the time that you stayed at his house what were you

doing in Kagiso? -- I was attending school at the Masupatsela

High School where I did my form 4 and form 5.

Otherwi.se where is your home? -- Randfontein. (20)

Now, do you know anything about YARM or YACM1 Have you

ever heard of that organisation? -- Yes, I heard of it.

We have heard evidence in this court that this body was

introduced at Masupatsela High School early in 1976. Do you

know about that? -- Yes, I know about that.

Do you know Themba Hlatswayo?

BY THE COURT: I just want to get it clear. Do you mean you

heard it had been introduced or you were present when it was

introduced? -- I was present when it was introduced.

MR SKWEYIYA: And in fact is the position that you know

that Mike, your brother-in-law, took an active part in YARM

or! •••

(30 )'

3 447 EASTERN

or YACM? -- Yes.

him.

Now, do you know Themba Hlatswayo7 -- Yes, I do.

No. 15. And do you know Lathli? -- Yes, I know him.

Accused No. 16. And do you know Rodney? -- Yes, I know

No. 17. Were you and Rodney in the same class in 1976

and 1977? -- Yes, we were.

Did you study together at all with him? -- Yes, we did.

And did he frequent Mike's - in other words the place

where you were living, Mike's place? -- Yes, he did. (0)

And for what purpose was this? -- For purposes of helping

me with maths. We were doing maths together.

And do you know one Jonas Letswalo? -- Yes, I do.

Did he in fact become a boyfriend of yours? -- Yes.

And when did you fall in love with him? -- Early in

September during 1976.

And did he at times come to the place where you were

living? -- Yes, he did.

For what reason did he have to come to the place where

you were living? -- He came to visit me or at times to (20)

help with mathematic problems.

Now, had you ever seen him at the same time together with

Lathli, Themba Hlatswayo and Mike and Rodney at the place where

you were living, at Mike's place in other words, in a meeting?

No, I did not see them together.

Are you aware that YARM meetings were at times held at

Mike's place? -- Yes.

And are you able to give us some of the names of the people

who attended those meetings? -- I used to see Bro Hippo~

Is that Errol Letse1eha? -- Yes. And Bro Chicken. (30) .

Who is Bro Chicken? Is it Aaron Khoza? Yes. And

Brother/ •••

3 448 EASTERN

Brother Sipho .

Is that Sipho Ntuzula? -- I do not know his surname. And

Brother Johnson, Oupa Ngidi and Oupa Meje.

Are you able to remember whether you saw Johnson Nyati

as frequently as you saw the other gentlemen you have mentioned

or not? -- No.

BY THE COURT: No what? -- He did not come as frequently as

these others whose names I have mentioned.

MR SKWEYIYA: Now, when these people had come there what had

they come to your place to do? What did they come to do (lO)

at your place rather? -- They were holding YARM meetings.

Besides these you have mentioned were there other meetings

of any other type which you saw being conducted at your home

or at Mike's place? -- They used to have talks on Islam.

Can you give us the names of people who used to have talks

on Islam? -- I used to see Mr and Mrs Raborlf!, Mr and Mrs Khoza,

Mrs Mdlankomo.

After school what did you do? When school, you know, gets

finished for the day, what did you do? Or where did you go? -­

I was going home and I would start preparing food when my (20)

elder sister was not home.

And was this sort of routine which you followed throughout

your stay at accused No. l3's place? -- Yes, though it was not

as an everyday practice. Whenever my sister was home, she would

do the work.

But you ' nevertheless went home after school? -- Yes.

Now during your stay in the period I have mentioned, from

the beginning, had you ever seen a group of between 12 to 15

stUdents in a meeting at Mike's place being addressed by Mike?

No. (30) ,

Now you 'know how big the house is in which you were staying,

that/ •••

3 449 EASTERN

that is Mike's place. Yes.

Let us take the kitchen. Do you think that a number of

people could sit there and sit comfortably in that kitchen? -­

How many people did you say?

Between 12 and 15. -- No, they cannot.

What about the diningroom? -- No.

Now, you confided to each other with Jonas, I presume.

Is that correct? As lovers. Do not be shy now. -- Yes.

Did you ever know him to be a member of YARM7 -- No, he

never told me that.

Did he ever mention the fact of being a YARM member to

you? No, he never.

Do you know Dan Matsobane, accused No. l8? -- Yes, I

know him.

(10)

Have you ever seen him attending a meeting at your brother-

in-law'S place? No.

What about Rodney? -- Attending a meeting there?

Yes. For what purpose did he come to Mike's place? -- He

came to visit me or to study with me.

There has been evidence in this court that on the (20)

16th June, 1976 there was a group of persons on those premises

where a meeting was held and there was a demonstration of the

making of a petrol bomb by Mike Matsobane. Did you see anything

of that sort? -- No, I did not.

Do you think if there had been such a demonstration you

would have seen it? -- Yes.

Look at the gentleman sitting here in the dock. Do you

know this gentleman here? M'Lord, I am pointing at accused

No. 1. -- No, I do not know him.

Have you ever seen him at Mike's place? -- No.

THE COURT ADJOURNS.

e 30) '

3 4 50 MAGEZA

THE COURT RESUMES ON THE 29th JANUARY, 1979.

TEMPLETON MAGEZA: still under oath:

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILSON: No questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAAIMAN: No questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ACKERMANN: Did you participate in

the rioting in 1976? I would not say so.

What do you mean by saying I would not say so? Did you

or did you not participate in the rioting in 1976? -- I did

not participate.

Not at all?

So you did?

participate.

Well, I did just here and there.

Yes, though I cannot say I truly did

(10)

And did you pay an admission of guilt fine? -- Yes, wemd.

Why weren't you prepared to admit your participation in

the riots in the first place when I asked you? -- This paymen~

was made on our behalf by our parents. We did not truly admit

having participated in those riots.

Did you know Jonas Letswalo to be a member of YARM or a

supporter of YARM? -- I did not know him to be a member.

And you did know about the existence of the organisa- (20)

tion of YARM? Yes, I came to know about it when it was

introduced at our school.

Ano why didn't you ever join the organisation? -- I have

no interest in any organisation even SCM or organisations like

SCM. I am only interested in sport.

And why did you attend the introductory meeting in r1arch,

1976? -- Our vice-principal told us that somebody would come to

our school to introduce something and he asked us to attend this

meeting, and he asked all the students to attend.

When were you first approached to come and give

evidence in this case? -- The Sunday before the Wednesday on

which! •••

(30)

3 ~ 5 1 MAG~ZA

which I appeared here when the subpoena arrived.

And were you then asked whether you had gone to Mike

Matsobane's house in the presence of Letswa10? -- Yes, this

was asked here in court.

But when you were approached to come and give evidence

here. -- No, the person who came to me is the person who had

brought the subpoena to me. He did not ask me this. When he

came to me, one of my parents was present.

So you were asked this question for the first time when

you gave evidence here in court? -- On our way to this (10)

place the advocate, though I do not know his name, asked me

this but it was just in passing.

Did you then reply to it? -- Yes.

Did you ever visit accused No. 13's house at any stage? -­

Yes, I did.

And did that sometimes happen in the presence of Le tswal07

-- I went there because of Letswalo and Letswalo was ··going there

because of Selina.

So it was only last week that you had to think back about

the " visits you had paid to Mike Matsobane's house when ( 20)

you were asked this question by Counsel for the Defence? Yes,

there was nothing else that could have caused me to think back.

Now tell us these visits that you paid to Mike Matsobane

at his house or the visit that you had paid at his house, what

was discussed there? Can you remember? When I went there

for the first time I was in the company of Jonas. Selina was

on our arrival washing herself. Jonas and I sat in the kitchen

while waiting for Selina. We were also afraid of Mike who

was the owner of the house and we had gone to the house as young

men paying a young girl a visit. We thought he might have (30)

a lot to say about that but he arrived and he greeted us on

his/ •••

3 452 MAGEZA

his arrival. After greeting us he asked us if Selina was home.

He thereafter took a seat and started asking us how lif e WQS

going on. After some time he told us that he was leaving

though we did not know where he was getting to and I am not

sure whether or not 3elina had come from the room where she was

washing at that time. This was the last time I saw Mike. Whe n

we went to his place for the second time I was again in the

company of Jonas and we found Selina seated with friends.

Selina introduced us to her frienffi after we had taken a seat.

Se lina was talking to her friends or had conversations (10)

with her friends while Jonas and I spoke alone or had conversa­

tions alone. This was because we were not used to these friends

of Selina's. Bro Mike then came in and greeted us. He then

left that room but I do not know where h e went to, whether he

had gone into a bedroom or to another room I did not know.

And did you see Bro Mike at his place after that meeting ?

I am sorry, I am referring to the second visit of yours.

No, I do not remember seeing him again except when we were in

the Krugersdorp Prison.

So you say that you cannot remember. -- No, I do not (20)

remember seeing him again. If I did see him thereafter, then

it could not have been in his house. It may perhaps have been

in the street.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: No questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

ALLAN EASTERN: still under oath:

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILSON: No questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAAIMAN: No questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ACKERMANN: Did you participate in

the rioting in 1976? I cannot remember.

You cannot remember? I did not do anything in 1976.

The! •..

(30)

3 453 EASTERN

The previous witness, Templeton Mageza, is he your broter?

Yes, he is.

Did you ever visit accused No. l3's house? -- No.

Are you quite adamant about that or is it just a question

that you cannot remember ever visiting his house? -- I have

never been to his house.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: No questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

SABINA MAKHUBANE: still under oath:

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ACKERMANN: You told us about

certain visits paid at Mike's house and then you added that

these people visiting accused No. 13, that they used to have

talks on Islam. Is that correct? Yes.

(10)

How many people visited accused No. 13 for this purpose?

It could be about five.

You have mentioned Mr and Mrs Raborifi and then a Mr

Mdlankomo. Were there other people also visiting Mi~e's house

for this purpose? -- I also mentioned Mr and Mrs Xl1oza.

And were there other people? -- No.

How do you know that they used to have talks on Islam? ( 20)

Bro Mike would tell us whenever these people were to come

to hold talks with him and asked us to prepare some refresh­

ments for them. I also once attended these talks.

On one occasion? -- Yes.

But returning to the preparations for the meetings, what

did he tell you concerning these meetings? -- He used to tell

us that there was going to be talks on Islam on that day or

on a particular day.

And were these meetings in the evenings? -- Yes.

And apart from this one meeting that you did attend, (30)

you did not attend any of the other meetings? -- No.

And/ •••

3 4 511 r·1AKHUBANE

And you regarded those meetings to be meetings with

regard to the Islamic faith merely on what f"1ike had told you?

-- I also used to see these people carrying Islam books.

And did you hear any singing? -- No. '

And did you hear them talk during these meetings? Yes.

And were these meetings held behind closed doors?

Whe~er they had these meetings in the diningroom I could go in

to get my books for purposes of studying and I could hear them

talk. Now I cannot regard this as having held these talks

behind closed doors. (10)

And were these meetings held at any other place on the

premises? -- They would be in the diningroom or in the kitchen.

Do you know what the PAC is? I have heard of it in the

papers but I do not know what it i s .

Do you know that accused No. 13 had been to prison? -- Yes.

00 you know for what reason?

political reasons.

I was told it was for

BY TIII:.: COURT: Who told you? -- Bro Mike told me.

What else did he tell you? -- Concerning what?

Did he just say it was for political reasons? -- I (20)

had heard this from our other relatives and then when I got a

chance to ask him, I asked him why he had gone to jail. He

said it was for political reasons. I did not ask him anything

further.

MR ACKERMANN: Did accused No. 13 ever leave the house after

dark, during the night? At what time in the night?

At any stage while you were awake and that you can~count

for his movements? -- Yes, he did, though it was very seldom.

Can you remember how many times did he leave the house? --

No. (30)

Can you give an estimation? -- No, I cannot.

You/ •••

3 455 MAKIIUDANC

You say that he left the house very seldom. -- Yes.

What do you mean by that? -- I mean he would sometimes

leave once in a month and sometimes when he left then I knew

him to be taking children to his parents.

Whose children? -- His children.

So when he left the house under those circumstances it was

for private family purposes. -- Yes, as far as I know.

Did he ever leave the house without telling you for what

reason he was doing so? -- No, I do not know. Hemd not always

tell me why he was leaving. He sometimes told - he was (10)

telling his wife.

Did students ever visit No. 13's house while you were

there? -- No.

No students at all? -- The only people I knew to be visitin~

him were Lathli and Themba.

BY THC COURT: Is that No. 15 and 16? -- Yes.

MR ACKCRMANN: If other students were visiting him at his place

or were in fact visiting his place whether he was there or not,

you would have known about it? -- If any of the students came

to pay him visits in his absence and they told me that (20)

they had come to visit him, then I would know because I would

have to tell him.

Is it possible that he was paid visits by students with­

out you knowing that? -- It can be possible if students paid

him visits in my absence.

When were you absent from the house? -- In the afternoon

after school when I may be away or could have been away on

having gone m the shops or accompanied friends.

And in the evening? -- I would not be going out in the

evening. (30)

BY TilE COURT: In th e evening you did not go out? -- No, I

did! •••

riAKIlUOANC

did not.

Could there be occasions when they visited him in the

evening that you would not know or were you always there? -­

I do not understand the question.

If students visited him in the evening would you have

known always that they were visiting him? -- Ycs, I would

know because I did not go out in th e evening, I was always

home.

MR ACKERMANN: Themba Mazibuko do you know him? -- Yes.

He says that he was there together with B.G. Manamela (10)

as well as accused No. 15 and 16. -- All four of them at the

same time?

Yes. -- I do not know about that.

And Adam Kunupi did you see him there at accused NO. 13's

house? -- No, I did not.

Because according to Mike he was there as well.

present thc n:

~vas I

No, I want to know whether you can account for this visit

or not. At what time could it have been when he had visited

["1ike?

So you did not see Adam Kunupi there at Mike's place at

any stage? -- No, I did not.

Did you attend the introductory meeting of YARM at

Masupatsela School? -- Yes.

(20)

Did you join the organisation? -- Do you mean on that very

day or later?

At any stage. I did but not on the day on which it was

introduced at school. I asked Bro Mike to put my name on the

list of those who had joined.

When did you do that? -- It was after that intro- (30)

ductory meeting though I cannot remember the month.

Approximately/ •••

3 457 MAKHUBANE

Approximately? -- I cannot remember.

Was it before or after the outbreak of the riots in

June, 1976? -- Before the outbreak of the riots.

How long before the outbreak of the riots? -- No, I do

not know.

Why didn't you join at the introductory meeting in March?

We were not asked to join on that day but Bro Mike told

the students that whoever wanted to join could contact Lathli

or Themba.

Yes, and did you do so? -- No, I did not. I only (10)

asked him to put my name on th e list of those who had joined

and this was after a few weeks.

Did you ever participate in the activities of the

organisation?

BY THE COURT: What did Mike say to you when you asked him to

dothis? -- He agreed to do that.

And th en? I did not ask him later " whether

or not he had put my name on the list.

MI~ ACKERMANN: Did you ever participate in the activities of

the organisation? -- No. (20)

Why not? -- I realised that I no longer had much interest

in it. This is because I was busy with my school work.

And did the people at school know of the fact that you

were staying at accused No. 13's house? -- Yes.

And did they know of your relationship with accused No. 131

Yes, my friends knew that.

And did anybody ever approach you in connection with

YARM or YACM at school? -- No.

And did you ever discuss your membership with Mike, that

is membership of the organisation? -- All I discussed (30)

with him was when I asked him to put my name down on the list.

He/ •••

3 458 MAKHUBANE

He had also told me then that a certain fee was to be paid,

a membership fee and he promised to pay this for me.

But weren't you to set an example to the other students

in participating in the activities of the organisation? -- I

did not know that it was a must that I be an example only

because I stayed at Mike's place and he had introduced the

organisation.

But the people at school could see that this relative of

Mikes, that she is not even interested in the activities of

the organisation. Isn't that so? That would only (10)

depend on what they think of that or what their conclusion is.

I was spending much time on my schoolwork.

But nevertheless Mike never expected it from you to

participate in YARM activities? -- I do not know.

BY THE COURT: Did he not ask you to do so? -- He only asked me

why it appeared as though I was no longer interested because

the last thing I said to him was that he should put my name

down on the membership list.

MR ACKERMANN: And what did you reply? -- I told him I was

still busy with my schoolwork. (20)

And that was the end of the matter? -- Yes.

He never informed you about YARM or YACM activities? -- I

only heard talk that there was a journey to be taken to a

picnic.

Where did you hear that talk? -- It was while he had

talks with Lathli and Themba when they had visited him.

At home? -- Yes.

So there were certain occasions when No. 15 and IG visited

him where they discussed YARt1 matters. -- I do not know whether

or not they were only talking about YARM matters whenever (30)

they visited him because I did not - I was not in their company.

I/ •••

3 459 I'1AKHUBANE

I want you to cast your mind back to the evening of the

16th June, 1976. Do you remember? -- Yes.

Do you know what Mike did on that particular evening? -­

What he did?

Yes. -- Like what?

BY THE COURT: Well, what did he do? -- In the evening?

MR ACKERMANN: Say from the afternoon onwards. -- He was

reading newspapers, this was after his ~rrival from work. He

later prepared a meal. After having had the meal he went to

bed. (10)

What did he do on the night of the 14th June, 1976? He

was at home on that evening though I cannot specifically

remember whether or not he read.

How is it that you can remember so well what he did on

the night of the 16th June, 1976! -- This is the day on which

the riots started in Soweto and if I remember well this also

appeared in the papers on that evening.

And did you discuss the riots, you and accused No. 13

as well as other people of the household? -- We discussed the

question of the riots that were said to have broken out (20)

in Soweto though we did not know whether or not it is true and

it had also been said some people had been shot.

Can you remember what Mike had to say about these riots

or the alleged outbreak of riots in Soweto? -- I cannot

remember.

And what were your personal feelings concerning the riots

at that stage? -- My personal feelings how?

What did you feel about the outbreak of the riots on the

16th June, 1976 in Soweto? -- This was the first time that I

heard of riots having broken out. I was only wondering (30)

what is happening.

Did/ •••

3 ~60 MAKHUBANE

Did you ask Mike about what was happening? -- No.

Why not? -- This did not occur to me.

But you had this discussion concerning the riots. -- I do

not know whether I should say this was a discussion or not

because all he said was, we have heard that there are riots.

And when did he tell you that he had gone to Robben

Island for political reasons? This was long before these

riots, when I started staying at his place.

What happened on the 17th June, 1976? -- I would say the

rioting started in Voka though I am not sure whether it (10)

started on the 17th or the 18th.

BY THE COURT: Where is that? -- Luipaardsvlei. This is

Kagiso 2.

MR ACKERMANN: And for how long did these riots last in Kagiso?

I do not know what to say how long these riots lasted because

there was rioting, then it would stop, after a few days it

would start again.

Up to the stage when the schools were reopened? -- Yes,

this happened even after the reopening of the schools.

So there was rioting allover the place for quite some (20)

time. -- Do you mean in Luipaardsvlei?

In Kagi~o Town~hip. -- Yes.

Up to the end of the year 1976. -- No, I can remember of

no rioting in December.

When did the rioting stop? -- In about September/October.

And did students - that is according to your own obser­

vations - did students participate in this rioting? -- Yes.

Students of Masupatsela? -- Yes.

And did Mike ever say anything about tllis rioting going on

in Kagiso? -- He did not say anything to me. (30)

Didn't he ever ask you as a student of Masupatsela whether

any/ •••

3 4Gl MAKHUBANE

any stlldents of Masupatsela had participated in the rioting?

No.

And did he ever go and have a look at the damage inflicted

to property in the Kagiso Township?

BY THE COURT: How would she know that?

MR ACKERMANN: Did he ever tell you that he was going to

look at damaged property in the Kagiso Township? -- No, he did

not.

And you never accompanied him on such an errand? -- No.

When were you approached in connection with this case (10)

to come and give evidence here? -- It is not long, in about

November.

BY THE COURT: That is last year? -- Yes.

MR ACK~RMANN: And did you read about this case in the news­

papers? -- Yes.

And what are your particular feelings concerning th~ fact

that your brother-in-law stands accused here? -- I cannot

understand. What my personal feelings are now that he stands

accused here?

Yes. -- I feel sorry that he should be here as an (V)

accused.

And the two previous witnesses, Templeton Mageza and

Mr Eastern, did you see them this morning? -- Yes.

Where did you see them? -- I came together with them.

In one car? -- Yes.

Did you discuss this case with them? -- Yes, what we were

saying was we were so shocked we do not know what was going

to happen.

Well I hope that you see that you had no reason to have

been shocked at all. Did you see Templeton Mageza after ('30)

he had given evidence here this morning? -- No.

RE-EXAMINATION/ •••

3 462

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA:

examination? -- Yes.

At Masupatsela? -- Yes.

MAKHUBANE

Did you pass your matric

When was this? -- The end of 1977.

And what class did you obtain? -- I got an F and then I

supplemented.

BY TIlE COURT: Do you mean you had to take some of the exams

again the following year? -- That is right. I then obtained a D.

That is a pass, is it? -- I obtained a D symbol in the

subject that I had to rewrite. (10)

That was in 1978? -- Yes.

That is a pass, is it? -- Yes.

MR SKWEYIYA: As I understand it is where you have failed in

certain subjects, you have to pass in certain subjects, if you

do not pass in them, you do not get a - apparently it was

probably one of the languages.

BY THE COURT: Then did you get .your school leaving certificate?

What is D? 30 to 40%?

MR SKWEYIYA:

BY THE COURT:

flR SKWEYIYA:

That is 50 and upwards.

40 to 50?

50 to 60. 50 to 59 to be exact.

(20)

BY THE COURT: It was very much lower in my days. So you got

your school leaving certificate at the beginning of 1978. Is

that correct? -- Yes.

MR SKWEYIYA: What are your plans about further schooling? -­

I wanted to take SATD.

BY THE COURT: What is that? -- South African Teacher's Diploma,

but because I haven't got money at the moment I will have to

work and take this next year.

MR SKWCYIYA: As a member of YARM did you know YARM to

have anything to do with PAC at all? -- No.

And/ •••

' ( 30)

3 4C,3 MAKHUBANC

And what is the size of the house of accused No. l3?

Uf how many rooms does it consist?

BY THE COURT: Does this arise out of the cross-examination?

MR SKWCYIYA: She was asked in what rooms the meetings were

held and so on.

DY TilE COURT: No, she just simply said that it was held in

the kitchen and the diningroom.

MR SKWEYIYA:

house has.

Yes, I am entitled to know how many rooms the

BY THE COURT: That does not arise out of cross-examina- · (10)

tion.

MR SKWSYIYA: With respect, it is relevant to the extent that

we should know whether there is somebody in the house or not.

BY THE COURT: Yes, go on. -- It consists of three rooms.

What do you mean by three rooms? -- Diningroom, bedroom

and? -- And a kitchen.

Diningroom, kitchen and bedroom? -- Yes.

One bedroom? -- Yes.

Well, where do you sleep then? In the diningroom.

When were you born? -- The 4th of the 4th month 1957. (20)

4th April, 1957. -- Yes.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

THE COURT ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH. THE COURT RESUMES AT 14hOO.

DANIEL MATSOBANE: still under oath:

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ACKERMANN: When did you first enroll

at the University of the North? -- In 1969.

And what did you want to become after the completion of

your studies there? -- I wanted to be a teacher.

And when was your course to be completed?

Now, did you know Abraham Tiro? -- Yes.

Was he a fellow student of yours? -- Yes.

And/ •••

1972.

(30)

3 464

And was he also a friend of yours? -- No.

Did you know him? -- Yes.

HATSOBANE

Did you discuss various matters with each other while both

being students at the University of the North? -- No.

Was he a student leader at the university? -- Yes.

And did you admire him for being a leader of the students

there? -- Yes.

And then in 1972 Abraham Tiro was expelled from the

University of the North. -- Yes.

And what were your feelings at that stage concerning (10)

this expulsion of Mr Tiro? -- I felt that he had been expelled

for no reason.

And you felt some bitterness about this expulsion of Mr

Tiro? -- Yes, anything unfair to me will make me feel bitter.

And were you allowed to continue with your studies in 1972

or were you also expelled from the university? -- I was suspended

and then later an expulsion against me was confirmed.

That was also in 1972? -- Yes.

When you were about to complete your studies. -- Yes.

What were your feelings then? -- I felt bitter because (20)

no explanation for my expUlsion was advanced, I do not know to

this moment why I was expelled.

BY THE COURT: vJhy were you suspended though? -- The university

was closed in about May so we were all suspended and we were to

re-enroll again or re-apply.

MR ACKERMANN: Did you have any interest in politics at that

stage? -- In student politics, yes.

And you were a Inember of SASO. -- That is true.

Jllst an ordinary member or did you hold any pusition in

the organisation? -- I was just an ordinary member. (30)

Did you try to establish a SASO branch at Kagiso after

you/ •••

3 4G5 MATSOCAN~

you had r e turned from the univer s ity? -- The students we r e too

few to establ ish a branch in Kagiso but all the same the

organisation was only in universities.

By saying that the students we re too few in Kagiso, do

you mean by that that you did try to establish a branch of

SASO in Kagiso? -- No.

Did you not try to establish a SASO branch at any stage?

That is true.

Do you know Bokwe Mafuna? -- Yes.

from where do you know him? -- I knew him to be a (10)

member of the executive of SASO.

Did you meet him personally at some or other stage? -- No.

And one Jeff Baqwa? -- I know him as well.

From where do you know him?

BY THE COURT: When you say I know Baqwa, do you mean you know

of him? -- I know uf him.

You have not met him though? -- No, I have not. ""

MR ACKERMANN: Do you know whether Bokwe Mafuna stayed on in

South Africa or not? -- Could you repeat that?

Bokwe Mafuna was an executive member of SASO. -- Yes. ( ~v )

Did he leave the Republic on a permanent basis or not?

I do not know.

And Jeff Baqwa, do you know whether he had left South

Africa? -- Yes, I read this in the papers.

When did you read that? -- I cannot say when this was.

I usually read papers and I cannot say what article appeared in

which paper or when.

Now I want to show you a notebook. I want to know from

you whether you are able to recognise it. -- I do recognise it.

And that first page is it in your handwriting? -- Yes. (30)

That will be EXHIBIT MMMMM. Why did you write that

particular/ •••

3 4 Lb ,... f"1 ATSOI3ANE

parti c ular page there in that specific not e book? I only

recognise my handwriting on that notebook but I did not read

what it contains. If I could be given an opportunity to go

through it.

You will see here at the top of that particular page, the

words appear there:

"Black theology literature freedom 71"

Yes.

And it appears to be a speech that you prepared for some

or other occasion. It starts with:

"Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen,

I shall attempt to give the conference

a report as clear as possible and in

this regard I will start off by giving

the synopsis of what transpired."

(JO)

Are you perhaps able to remember what conference is referred to

here? -- No, I cannot exactly remember when or which ··conference

is referred to here.

Then l e t us proceed with the next paragraph:

"I am sorry the report will not be mentioned

in the sequence of days there, but an over­

all picture will suffice I think. Many

interesting topics were discussed in the

simulation groups, inter alia the South

African situation with its sick violence."

Then you go over to the next page:

"Violence is initiated by those who

oppress, who exploit and who fail to

recognise others as persons, not by those

who are oppressed, exploited or un­

recognised."

Dol •••

( ;> 0)

(30)

3 4('7

Do you see that? -- Yes.

MATSOBANF:

Were those your sentiments at some or other stage? -- Yes

Are they still the feelings that you have concerning the

situation in South Africa? -- Yes.

That violence is initiated by the people who oppress the

others in this country? -- Yes.

Now do you by that refer to the White/Black situation,

that the Whites in South Africa initiate violence used by Blacks

in South Africa? -- Could you repeat the question please?

Do you by that mean that the Whites initiate violence? (10)

Yes.

Because of the oppression of the Black people in South

Africa? -- That is true.

And the violence so initiated by the White people is the

violence used by the Black people?

the Whites and the Blacks.

This is the violence by

Is that the only ,violence referred to here? -- Yes.

When you say that violence is initiated by those who

oppress. -- Yes.

Now, do you know of a Black Renaissance Convention? ( 20)

Yes.

What do you know about the organisation? -- What I know

is that there was a conference of the Black Renaissance

Convention though I do not remember in which year it was held.

It could have been in about 1974 but I am saying this under

correction and it was held in Hammanskraal.

BY THE: COURT: That is not this convention that is referred to

in this E:XHIBIT MMMMM? -- It is not.

MR ACKE:RMANN: You are shown a paper there, entitled:

"The aims and objects of the Convention" (30)

that is the Black Renaissance Convention. Do you see it? -- Yes.

And/ •••

3 468 MATSOBANE

And there are two handwritten paragraphs on that specific

piece of paper. -- Yes, I do see the paragraphs.

Who wrote those two paragraphs? -- I wrote them.

M'Lord, may this go in as EXHIBIT NNNNN. How did it come

about that you attended this convention?

BY THE COURT: The two handwritten paragraphs are yours, are

they? -- Yes, I wrote these paragraphs.

It is the handwritten paragraphs that you wrote? -- Yes.

MR ACKERMANN: How did it come about that you attended this

convention at Hammanskraal? -- Various organisations in (10)

this country were invited to this Black Renaissance Convention,

inter alia church organisations, political organisations and

bodies like the Coloureds Representative Council, there were

also representatives from the government of Lobowa, there were

also ministers of religion. As I have said it was a cross­

section of the Black people in South Africa.

And who invited all these organisations there? I do not

know who the convenor of the conference was, but the invitation

was entitled Black Renaissance Convention.

Why did you add these two handwritten paragraphs to (20)

the four typewritten paragraphs on this particular piece of

paper? ' - This is what happened. Speeches were being given

and thereafter were the participants divided into smaller

groups to discuss different issues.

BY THE COURT: Small discussion groups? -- Yes. I also belonged

to one of the discussion groups. I wrote on this piece of paper

what was being discussed in the discussion group to which I

belonged and I wrote this when we were to report back.

To repo rt back? -- When we were to report back aft e r the

dis c ussion groups.

MR ACKeRMANN: These are your personal feelings wh a t is said

here/ •••

(30)

3 4G9

here in handwritten paragraphs 1 and 2? -- Yes.

Now what do you mean by saying:

"We therefore (that is in handwritten

paragraph 1) pledge ourselves to enter­

tain any sacrifice leading to full

citizenship and freedom."

f.1ATSOCANC

What I mean is that we will sacrifice as Blacks whatever we

have which will lead us to obtaining full citizenship and free­

dom.

And what would this sacrifice entail? -- There are (10)

times when one has to offer his services in places like the

location, the activities there and also bearing in mind that

those services will help the people so served to help them­

selves. Because my belief is that the amount of education I

already have, the little education I already have is not for me

alone hut also for other people. I would therefore whereve r

possible offer my services free of charge. I aligned" myself

with what the discussion group reported after we had had those

discussions and that is what is written in these two paragraphs.

Was that the only sacrifice that you would be prepared (Z0)

to makp in this struggle for full citizenship and freedom? -­

That would depend on the situation I would be finding myself in,

which is what else do I have to sacrifice.

And the sacrifices that you would be prepared to make, you

would make within the framework as laid down by the White man?

If you could explain. I do not understand you.

You would never be prepared to break the law for instance.

No.

Now to return to Mr Tiro, do you know that he went to

Dotswana at some or other stage? -- Yes, I read about that (30)

in the papers.

And/ •••

3 47U l"lATS013AfH':

And do you know that at some or other stage he was killed

by a parcel bomb? Yes.

And what did you think about this killing of ~ man that

you had once held in high regard? -- I was very sorry.

Who did you think was responsible for this act? -- I do

not know.

But isn't it so that SASO blamed the White government in

South Africa for that act? -- I do not know.

Ar e you able to recall a shooting incident that took place

at the Western Deep Levels Mine in September, 19737 -- Yes, (10)

I do vaguely remember this, I do not clearly remember it.

And is it so that you regarded at some or other occasion

that this shooting incident to be a second Sharpeville? -- I

have already said th at I vaguely remember that inc ident. I

cannot very clearly remember what actually happened there and I

can therefore not say that I did say this is an incident similar

to that one of Sharpville.

To summarise you say that violence is initiated by th e

oppressor in South Africa. -- Yes.

That is by the White oppressor against the Black man (20)

in South Africa. -- Yes, most of the Whites.

And you were very dissatisfied with the expulsion o f Mr

Tiro from Turfloop. -- I was not satisfied and I do not think

anybody could be satisfied with an action of that kind, a

colleague being expelled in that manner and I do not think

anybody can be satisfied with having his education career

ended in that manner.

And you were also very dissatisfied considering your own

e xpul s ion fr o m Turfloop. Yes, I wa ~ not.

And what did you do to change this situation? -This (30)

unjust situation in South Africa. -- Well, I could personally

not/ •••

3 471

not do anything but I felt the services which I offered to my

community were the only thing I could do as an individual.

So your contribution to the struggle for total Black

freedom was this community service that you rendered? -- I want

yo u to clearly understand me on this by saying the services

I offpred to the community I mean I had realised that there is

nothing I can do to change the situation of the country but I

felt the services I could offer to my community was the only

thing I could do.

You had this interest in student politics while you (10)

were at university. -- Yes.

Did you think of joining any political organisation after

you had left university? -- Yes, I did.

What were your thoughts in this regard? I thought if I

could join with a political organisation then I could perhaps

find out from the organisation what could be done.

What did you do in this regard? -- I encountered many

problems after leaving the university. These problems we re

concerning me and my people at home.

BY THE: COURT: Per sonal problems? -- Yes. (20)

MR ACKERMANN: Can you perhaps elaborate on that? -- These

problems are problems like this one: after having left the

university I was still desirous to continue with my studies.

My people were poor and I had to work for them. I stayed for

quite a time without employment. These are the problems I

encountered. Another thing again was that the children had

grown up, there were many and the only person who could take

over from my parents was myself.

But you still had this political interest of yours. -- Yes,

my spirit still had it. (30)

And you wanted to make a contribution in this particular

field/ •••

3 472 MATSOBANE

field as far as Black freedom was concerned? -- Yes, if I

could get the opportunity.

When you took up employment, what did you do then? -­

There were still difficulties even after having taken up

employment. I had to work and I still wanted to continue with

my studies.

But did you not find the time to make any contribution as

to any political organisation of any kind? -- I could to the

time of my arrest not join any political organisation.

Did you know at that stage of your life of any other (10)

person making a contribution to a political organisation?

Yes, there is a political organisation and I know that the

people who are members of that organisation do offer their

services.

Is that the BPe? -- Yes.

And was there a BPe branch in Kagiso, that is when you

returned from campus? Not to my knowledge.

Was there at any stage a npe branch in Kagiso? -- We ll,

there was only a rumour that there is a branch but I never had

the opportunity to meet the people. (20)

But you would have liked to meet them if only you had the

opportunity. -- Yes.

Because you wanted to make a contribution if only you had

the opportunity. -- Yes.

And if only you had the opportunity you would instil

other people with the spirit of making a contribution towards

Black freedom. -- Yes, that is correct.

Especially when it comes to young people. -- Anybody.

Anybody. And what would you have told them if only you

had the opportunity of instilling them with political (30 :

feelings? -- Well, this is a hypothetical situation. If I were

to/ •••

3 473 r·1ATSG I3/dJ I.::

to bA in an organisation then I would disseminate its principles.

I am going to put it to you later on that the situution is

not or was not so hypothetical as you might think it was. Now,

I would like you to turn to the situation at Wilgespruit. When

did you first take up employment at Wilgespruit? -- Towards

the e nd 0 f 1 9 73 •

And how did it come about that you took up employme nt there '

-- I applied to organisations and firms which I knew and I got a

response from Wilgespruit.

So apart from Wilgespruit you also applied to other (10)

organisation s and firms? -- Yes.

BY THe COURT: Was that for work? Yes.

MR ACKERMANN: Why did you apply to Wilgespruit? What kind

of a job did you want to get there? -- Clerical work.

And did you have any discussion with anybody from Wilge-

spruit c6ncerning your employment there? . In other words any

interview with an official working there? -- Yes, I did.

With whom? -- The Reverend White.

And what did he tell you? -- I had applied for a clerical

job and when I got there he gave me the job. ( 20)

What was going on at Wilgespruit at that stage? Were any

projects undertaken there? -- Yes, there were projects.

And one of these projects was the Urban Industrial Mission?

That is correct.

That is towards the end of 1973. Yes.

And what were the other projects at that stage?

was a domestic workers project and another one which is

abbreviated YES.

There

BY TilE COURT: •• (inaudible) I cannot remember it offhand,

I may perhaps be in a position to remember it later. (30:

MR ACKERMANN: Was anything going on at st Ansgars at that

stage/ •••

3 474 f1ATS0I3ANE:

stage towards the end of 1973? No, I do not know.

When did the Urban Resources Centre first start to operate,

if I can call it that way? -- I had been at Wilgespruit for

some time when I first came to know about the Urban Resources

Centre and also about st Ansgars in about mid-197t1.

Is it so that some of the activities that had been under­

taken at Wilgespruit were moved to st Ansgars? -- I do not

know. I did not know whether there was any cooperation between

these two because the two places were adjacent to each other.

So you ,did not know of any cooperation between these (10)

two institutions to call them that way? -- Yes, I did not

know of any cooperation.

And when you first became aware of the existence of the

URC it was already at st Ansgars? -- Yes, that is correct.

When did you first start with the literacy program of

the Urban Industrial Mission? -- Which one now of the Industrial

Mission?

How many programmes were there of the Industrial l"lission?

You have spok~n about a literacy project which was with

the Industrial Mission. Now I just want to know which (~O)

one.

Evidence was given ,here by Miss Mosweu concerning a

literacy campaign or a literacy program. -- Yes, I understand.

Were there any other literacy programmes apart from that

one: Yes, there was a class for the people who were employed

there.

Where? -- At Wilgespruit .

But that did not have anything to do with the Urban

Industrial Mission? -- No, I do not know what to say now. Is

that a question? (30)

Yes. -- What is the question?

Did/ •••

3 475 MATSOI3Af~E:

Did the oth~r literacy program have anything to do with

the Urban Iridustrial Mission? -- Well, there was a class for

the employees there, the elderly people who were employed there.

They were being taught to read and write. Now I do not kndw

whether to say this was also under the Urban Industrial Mission

or not but let us say it was.

Because I do not want any confusion here. So there were

only those two programmes? The one as testified to by Miss

Mosweu and the other one, the local one for the workers at

WFC? -- Yes. (10)

How did it happen that certain coordinators were trained?

Did you ask these people to come for such training or how did

it come about? I . am sorry, I want to make it clear. That is

the literacy program as testified to by Miss Mosweu. This

is what happened as I also testified earlier that after we had

started with classes at school, elderly people who wanted to

learn also came, thinking that this was a school where everybody

could be admitted. I was at the time the only person helping

though this was with the assistance of another teacher. I

as a result had a lot of work and I could not cope with (20)

the work. I made announcements in the classes we had that

there are elderly people who wanted to come and learn and I

wanted to know if there was anybody who would be interested in

helping them.

Where did you make that announcement? Was that during

the night school classes? -- Yes.

These night classes did you have them in your private

~apacity? -- Yes.

And was that before or after you had taken up employment

at Wilgespruit? -- After I had taken up employment there. (30)

Yes, and what happened then? -- Certain people then

volunteered/ •••

3 47G MATSOBANE

volunteered to help and I then said that special training was

necessary in order to be able to help elderly people. When

the people who had volunteered to help came, I had already

qualified as a literacy instructor.

Had you qualified as such at Wilgespruit? -- I was trained

elsewhere. The c ourse I took was being run by the Bureau of

Literacy and Literature. I took this course while I was

already employed at Wilgespruit.

BY THE COURT: I just do not understand now. I am completely

lost with all these. What is the Bureau of Literature and (10)

Literacy? -- It is an organisation that trains people into

being" literacy instructors and literacy teachers.

This is not at Wilgespruit? -- Yes, it is not.

But you had taken this while you were working at Wilge­

spruit? -- Yes.

MR ACKERMANN: And because you were working at Wilgespruit?

What did I take because I was working there?

This course at the Bureau for Literacy. -- I would have

taken it even if I did not work there.

The question is did your employers at Wilgespruit (20)

ask you to take that course? -- What I know is th~t there was

a letter - or a letter at Wilgespruit was received, this letter

was to inform of the course that was to be taken or that could

be taken at the Bureau of Literacy and Literature. I was then

asked if I was interested or not.

Asked by whom? -- Asked by the director.

Who was that? -- The Reverend White.

Then you qualified as a literacy teacher at the Bureau

for Literacy? -- Yes.

BY THE COURT: Where is this Bureau? -- It is in Braam-

fontein.

Is/ •••

(30) .

3 477 MATS08ANE

Is it run by the llniversity or who is it run by? -- It is

an organisation on its own as far as I know and ·it is not

connected with the university. This is to my knowledge .

Could you tell me did you have to pay these people? Ye s.

What did you pay them? I cannot remember whether it was

R50 or RIOO but I would say it was RSO.

Was that for the whole course? -- Yes.

And how often did you have to go? -- For 5 days.

One after the other? -- Yes.

What time in the morning did you go there? -- From (10)

0 9hOO t o 16hOO.

And then what did they say? Were you then qualified to do

what? -- I qualified as a literacy teacher.

~as there some sort of docurnent they g ave you, a diploma

or a letter ur something to s how that you had done this cours e ?

Yes, ther e is a do c ument I was given although I first had to

run a class some time and then I could be accredited a cp rtifi­

cate to sho\J that I was a qualified literacy teacher.

And they charged you HSO or RIOO? -- I would say it was

about R50 because I went there to be trained as a literacy (20)

teacher. I was trained for a week.

Was it something per day, did you pay per day, RIO a day

sort of thing? -- No, I had to pay for the whole course.

MR WILSON: It appears to be situated at a place 313 Oumwell

House in Braamfontein.

BY THE COURT: And then they give you a document and say that -

did you have to pay before you started or after you .had finished

I paid before I started.

MR ACKERMANN: Did you payor did your employer pay? -- I paid

in the sense that I asked for a loan, then paid for the (30)

course and I had to repay 50% of the loan.

Nevertheless/ •••

3 478 MATSOBANE

Nevertheless you were now busy with these night classes.

Yes.

Miss Mosweu was she also attending one of these night

classes? Yes.

And Mr Errol Letseleha, Hippo? -- Yes.

In what capacity? -- If I am not mistaken he also did

attend the classes and I cannot remember whether or not he was

doing JC but he did not continue for a long time.

But they both attended as students? -- Yes.

BY THE COURT: Is this now a literacy class? -- I was

asked if these people attended as students at a night school.

I was answering that question.

The night school what class was that you were holding?

In what subject? -- JC and matric.

But what subjects? -- Biology and Tswana.

MR ACKERMANN: Is it here that you handpicked your coordinators,

the people who had to be trained as literacy teacher~? -- I

did not handpick anybody, people volunteered.

So they volunteered. Now, Hippo, did you know him before

the stage when he attended these night classes? -- Yes. (20)

How did you know him? Well, he stayed in the locati9n

and I know many people in the location.

Did he at any stage have anything to do with the Urban

Industrial Mission? -- Well there was a Works Committee at his

place of employment and he was the chairman of the Works

Committee. As I testified earlier the Urban Industrial Mission

offered services to such committees. He was a member of such

a committee.

Now to have it clear, did you then tell your employer, that

is Reverend Dale Whi te, about this need for Ii teracy (30)'

classes? -- Yes, I did.

And/ •••

3 479

And what was his reply?

MATSOBANE

I had gone to him to ask him

for a loan. This was because the school had no money at the

time.

That is the night school? -- Yes.

Yes? I also wanted permission to use the conference

facilities at the place.

At Wilgespruit? -- Yes.

Yes? -- He agreed.

BY THE COURT: Do you mean the rooms? -- The hall and a place

for catering. (10)

MR ACKERMANN: That night school was a private business

enterprise? -- Yes.

And you were in charge of this night school? -- Yes.

BY THE COURT: Now this is the night school in some of the

schoolrooms at Kagiso? -- Yes.

MR ACKERMANN: And you received money from people attending

these classes at the night school? -- Yes, that is correct.

So apart from the Reverend White agreeing to the use of

the facilities at Wilgespruit, what else did he say? Did you

then discuss the possibility of holding these literacy (20)

classes? -- Yes, at the place, at Wilgespruit.

BY THE COURT: Can you just tell me when you asked him for the

loan of the hall and facilities, the use of them, was that in

order to accommodate what? Literacy classes or the night

school or what? -- This was to enable us to train the people

who had volunteered to be teachers as literacy teachers.

MR ACKERMANN: Is that all that the Reverend White had to do

with the literacy classes? That you approached him to render

facilities for these coordinators to be trained? -- Yes.

Nothing was said about the classes itself? -- I do (30)

not understand.

Did/ •••

3 480 MATSOBANE

Did you at that stage discuss the possibility of a literacy

project with him? No, not to my knowledge.

BY THE COURT: So all you wanted was facilities to help you

train these coordinators? Yes.

And you personally were going to train them? -- Yes, and

those who would help me. I would personally, with the

assistance of those who would help me train the coordinators.

I thought that you had asked for volunteers and then you

were going to train them and then they would be able to help

you. You must tell me if I am wrong. -- It is so. (10)

When you said I and those who would help me would do the

training? Who are the people who would help you did you have

in mind? Other literacy instructors who would be present

and help in the running of that course.

MR ACKERMANN: Where would they come from? -- There are

literacy instructors in this country.

BY THE COURT: That does not help me you know, please I am

trying to get my notes correct. Now who did you have in mind

who would assist you? Or didn't you have anyone particular in

mind? -- I had two people in my mind whom I would ask or (20)

call to come and be present and be my helpers in conducting this

course and these are Angela Norman and Pusetso Lethlabika.

MR ACKERMANN: And where were they employed at that particular

stage? -- Pusetso was employed in the Johannesburg suburbs as

a literacy instructor and literacy teacher. She was employed by

the organisation known as the Domestic Workers and Employers

Project.

Who is that? Angela Normal? -- No, Pusetso.

BY THE COURT: What was this project then? Was this project

this had nothing to do with your Urban Resources centre or (30)

the Urban Industrial Mission or anything like that, the

Domestic/ •••

Collection Number: AD2021 SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials 1958-1982 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg ©2012

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