2nd PUBLIC HEARING ON CONDITIONS

RE: RELATING TO THE ESTABLISHMENT OFA MEDICAL-SCHOOL IN NEWARK, N. J.

1

. Transcript of proceedings taken

in/ the above-entitled matter on Saturday, February 17, 1968,

at 9:30 A.M. in Room 209, 1100 Raymond Blvd., Newark, New

Jersey.

BEFORE

CHANCELLOR RALPH'DUNGAN

P R E S E N T

Steve Farber, Asst. to Gov. Hughes

Joel Sterns, Dept'y. Commissioner of Community Affairs

Lou Danzig, Director of Newark Housing Authority

Duke Moore, United Community Corporation

Michael Davidson, NAACP Defense Fund

Harry Wheeler

Junius Williams, N.A.P.A.

Dr. Robert Cadmus, Dean of Medical College

Charles Beckett, HUD

Terry Chisolm, HUD

CERTIFIED SHORTHAND RETORTERS

1236 SOUTH BROAD STREET

TRENTON, NEW JERSEY 08610

587-2630

GUY J. RENZI, CSR.

RICHARD A. MERLINO & ASSOCIATES

IA

Donald Malafronte, Asst. to Mayor Addonizio

Rev. Sharper

Louise Epperson

Oliver Lofton, Esq.

Dr. L. Sylvester Odom

2

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Good morn-

ing, ladies and gentlemen. This is the second in a set of

public meetings in which Mr. Wheeler, Mr. Williams and

others are representing a negotiating group from the commu-

nity with the understanding that anyone who is attending

here can feel free to interject his opinion on any of the

issues that are up here on the table. Now, on the other

hand, since we started out with a hearing type format, if

there is anyone here who would like to present For the

record a statement either in writing or otherwise, we'd be

happy to hear it, providing, if I may say so, that it does

not take too long so that we can move ahead in our fairly

well structured agenda.

DR. PINCUS: I am Dr. Joseph

Pincus, I am secretary to the committee to support the New

Jersey College of Medicine and Dentistry in Newark. The

committee is nne of long standing. It evolved from a

standing committee from the hospital

council of Newark

and the city. For many years the need for a school for

the health profession has been recognized and certain

community leaders and members of the general community

have worked to this and. When the opportunity presented

1d

3

itself, or the possibility of the New Jersey College of

4edicine and Dentistry to be relocated from Jersey City to

Newark, this committee did everything within its own power

to persuade the Board of Trustees and the administration

of the school to make the move.

The decision, as you know,

has been made. The school can move if certain conditions

are met. In speaking for the committee, and I will leave

the roster and other papers with you, if I may, is pleased

that this type of negotiation is taking place. I think

authorities in medicine whohhave psychiatric orientation

know that if you involve the consumer, and we all are po-

tential patients, and if the school moves into medicine,

every citizen will be a patient; that if you involve the

consumer, the patient, his health will be promoted and if

there are disabilities, the curative process will be facil-•

itated. So this is very good just from the health point

of view.

From the social-political

paint of view, we think this is very good too. So we are

pleased that these talks were taking place: Some of the

problems in the past have arisen around the subject of

4

what I would call either/or; either jobs, either housing,

either the school. I think this has been a false premise.

We need all three. For the health of the people we need

jobs, we need housing, we need the school. It is a three-

legged stool. Health cannot stand on one or two legs.

Modern public health has rec-

ognized that good housing over the past seventy-five to a

hundred years has done as much to improve life expectancy,

to extend life expectancy as has biologicals or drugs. So,

without belaboring the point, our committee takes the posi-

tion that we need all three, and our knowledge of the corn.-

munity, its people, leads us to believe that there can be

an accommodation here and that everyone should work toward

this end to make it possible for the school to proceed.

While the school is in the

tanative doubt area it cannot do the things that need to

be done. The problems in Newark, I needn't tell you, are

very serious. I won't recite the morbidity rates or the

mortality rates, this has been done over and over, but if

we continue to whistle while people get sick, sicker and

die, it really will be on our conscience. So, if we can

look in a personal way, perhaps, all of us can now move

to beat the schedules that must be beat.. If we don't, we

are going to incur even larger deficits. Thank you.

MR. HENRY: My name is Verner

Henry, 31 Bruce Street, Newark, a resident of the Fairmount

Venewal area. I would like to report to you that the City

has committed itself in 1964 to construct town houses in

the area where the medical school was supposed to be con-

structed. We have no objection to the direction of the

medical school. We expect the city to honor its committment

in the construction of town houses somewhere nearby. After

negotiating in this area for nine years, I have been pushed

to the point where I shall use every legal means to have

the city honor its committment. My means are limited,

but I assure you, I shall drag this thing through the courts

until I get some documentation on this committment. I.

have negotiated with the Planning Board, the Housing Au-

thority and others to no satisfaction. And those of you

who know me as a past president of the Newark Board of

Education know that I'm a patient man, but after nine years

I feel that this thing should be resolved in favor of the

people who live in the area. There is a public committment

to housing and we expect to obtain it.

6

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: May I

ask you, sir, just from my own information, do you have

an option with the city or some informal agreement with

the city, or how much land is it in the so-called "forty-

six" acre tract?

MR. HENRY: No:, we live in

the Fairmount renewal area.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Is this

upper or lower Fairmount?

MR. HENRY: Adjacent to the

11.X acres which you are considering. In fact, my backyard

is contiguous to your area.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: To the

MR. HENRY: That's correct.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: And do

you have an option on this land, or is it just the nature

of a discussion?

MR. HENRY: I'm the owner,

I'm a resident, and I might go one step further, I don't

intend to sign any contracts for the sale of my property

until I see another residence constructed that I can move

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into. This was promised to us originally and this is what

we expect to obtain. The original committment with the

Planning Board and with the Housing Authority was this

type of committment. And even though we have nothing in

writing to ourselves specifically, it is available for

documentation in the newspapers.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: All right.

Mr. Wheeler was just saying

this is part of the whole problem between the commercial

versus residents committment. I'd like to press and excuse

my ignorance, Mr. Henry. What you are talking about is

a committment that you have with the city, that you under-

stand with the city, that town houses will be constructed

in the area so as to provide for the relocation of people

who will be up-rooted?

MR. HENRY: That's correct.

MR. DANZIG: The original

plan shows that committment as having been approved by

the Housing Authority, the Planning Board. And that has

been beclouded by the issue of the request for the entire

Fairmount tract for the medical school which is now no

longer the situation.

8

MR. WHEELER: So that our

original premise in housing is a very sound one as relates

to the history of the matter.

.CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Does.

anybody else have a comment or question or statement to

make before we move along?

I would like to say one thing

particularly for those who are here this morning and weren't

here the other evening. Our efforts here, the form is, I

suppose, somewhat unique being a combination of the nego-

tiation hearing that the purpose of it is quite clear. I

think almost everyone in this room on both sides of the

table would like to see the medical school come to Newark.

Whether it will or not is in doubt. The reason we are

here is to try to settle, as far as we can, around this

table a whole variety of issues that surround the medical

school's coming to Newark, and at least to identify those

on which we don't have answers to, can't get answers to

right here or on which there are differences. And we

have oriented ourselves around seven points in the federal

letter which really comprehends all of the questions

which the community, the State and the local City govern-

ment have had about this whole matter. So we've used the

federal letter, the seven points in the federal letter as

a point of departure, so to speak, or an agenda for this

meeting. And if I could, I'd like to return to the matters

which we passed over or didn't get to the other evening.

MR. WHEELER: May I, prior

to going into the seven conditions, the last thing that

we did was to charge your office with two areas that we

thought you could act in the best interest of this total

problem. One was to confer with your cabinet colleague,

Lloyd McCorkel, and to make the request in your own fashion

to have him relinquish the ten and three-tenths acres of

land that has become an issue above and beyond the agree-

ment on the 57.9.

MR. WILLIAMS: We went further

than that on the matter of the acreage too.

MR. WHEELER: Plus the fact

of a clarification of the buffer zone and the whole question

about the seven and a half acres for the hospital.

Now, in the second part was

the sole question of getting rid of this so-called "housing

jam" as it exists in Newark, and particularly as it related

10

w

IL.

to our sick, and Mr. Parker and his options.

Now, it would seem to me in

the best interest of-continuity that we would start with

those items and then move on to that what we missed as re-

lates to the seven conditions.

MR. WILLIAMS: I asked you

also for a list of the jobs-needed to do the construction

of the temporary facilities and a list of the jobs needed

for the forty-six acres construction. I want to know the

time involved and the kind of building trades that are in-

volved.-

I want to say this also, for

a whole month before when we came to the Governor's office

when we went down to Trenton and various other places, we

were strung out because we couldn't get this basic informa-

tion. Now I'm not going to keep coming back here on this

day to day basis without having some kind of satisfaction

as to the specific things that we are asking.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Wait a

minute --

MR. WILLIAMS: I want to set

the tone. I am speaking for me personally now, I don't

i3.

want to keep coming back down here again.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I feel

exactly the same way, but, Junius, I am not certain at all

that you have any right to ask me or any other state or

federal government person to give you a list of the employ-

ees. I don't think you necessarily have a right to expect

that that's sitting there.

MR. WILLIAMS: Let's take a

step back from that. It seems that throughout this process,

and this may be, you know, a very good lesson in political

science for us all, that there is never anybody to blame.

We come from the community and we ask a specific . question.

You, who are supposedly representing the powers that be,

always say, "Let's be reasonable.' We make a specific re-

quest, then the people who are supposed to be representing

the power structure say, It is not our fault that such

and such exists." I don't want to back off with the problem

that's in the street, you are all to blame. I'm trying to

come here as a reasonable man, but you are forcing me to

that position.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: What I'm

saying is that it seems to me, we have a joint responsibility,

12

for instance, with respect to the employment on the con-

struction project --

MR. WILLIAMS: Who, me?

CHANCELLOR' DUNGAN: You are

interested as I am interested in doing something about it,

you are part of the power structure.

MR. WILLIAMS: I have no way

of getting the kind of information that I request except

by going to the people that hold themselves out to be re-

sponsible individuals representing the power structure, of

which I am most certainly not a part.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I under-

stand what you are looking for, I know why you are looking

for it, I think it is right and I am doing my dampest to

get it.

MR. WILLIAMS : That's not

good enough in terms of the light of these discussions,

because we can't keep going on and on and around the barn.

MR. WHEELER : Chancellor,

one of the things that we established was that if the

community is going to be able to address itself to the

seven conditions intelligently, there is a need for the

13

community to have access to information requested. And

this is what Ounius is saying.

MR. WILLIAMS: I think he

knows what I'm saying.

MR. DANZIG: Mr. Chairman,

last week there was a meeting here that went from seven

to four or five hours, at which the ground rules were laid,

and those ground rules, as I recollect them, were that

when all was said and done, you, sir, had agreed, as charge

of the meeting, to abide by the conclusion reached by the

group of the community the important order of business

that needed to be resolved with the seven points in the

Woods-Cohen Letter, and then after that took an hour and a

half to reach that decision, and that was all that was

supposed to be discussed. However, during the course of

the meeting other matters were introduced, and properly

so, maybe, but sooner or later we have to get down to what

are we trying to do here, we can't agree to agree on execu-

tion and resolution of the seven points in the Wood-Cohen

Letter and then come up with work forces in the construction

who nobody knows, lists of names of faculty not yet chosen

and a variety of other things. I thought that we had con-

l4

eluded one thing above all, that whatever agreements were

reached, would be reached in good faith and that confidence

would prevail where confidence did not exist in the commu-

nity before. I take it that that is the function of this

negotiation, and to introduce new matter at this time, it

is confounding the objectives of the meeting.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: In all

fairness, Mr. Danzig, I don't think it is a new matter.

MR. DANZIG: I'm talking about

the arrangement, where we were to go point by point through

the Wood-Cohen Letter.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: It must

be said in all fairness and candor that all of the things

that we talked about just the last few minutes are abso-

lutely bound up in the seven points. So I suggest that,

if we may, let us go through, starting with those points

mentioned by Mr. Wheeler.

MR. DANZIG: Now to bring

that into sharper focus, if I may, we were onthe subject

of relocation and there was a request by the community

that there needed to be a representative, a responsible

representative of HUD present. And so the meeting was

15

projected for this day and this time so that HUD could be

here, so that the other three points then could be gone

into involving model cities, and I see that they are here,

and so while the responsible people with decision making

powers are here, let's not let them escape, because I see

Charlie Beckett, he's all the way from Philadelphia to

honor the request of the group.

MR. WHEELER: Chancellor,

if I may, I am sure that Mr. Chisolm, Mr. Beckett and any

other member representing an agency isn't going to run

off. They are here in the interest of bringing the medical

school to Newark, and an that basis I would suggest that

we proceed as I've outlined it and Mr. Danzig can be assured

that we will get into these seven conditions.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Okay.

I think, as a matter of fact, that there is no doubt about

it that we do have to discuss some of those things that

we can discuss, that is where we have the things that came

up at our meeting, so let's start with the Child Care Cen-

ter. I did talk to Mr. McCorkel, and Mr. McCarkel would

be very delighted to abide by the desires of this community

with respect to the relinquishing of those four point seven

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acres for the Child Care Center.

. Incidentally, I should be

very clear, this Child Care Center has two functions, you

are aware of that? One is what I would call a welfare

function, that is to take care of youngsters on an interim

basis who come from abandoned homes Or something of that

nature; the other function it will perform is to take care

of disadvantaged youngsters, brain damage or something,

retarded children, to relieve the family on a day care

basis, to relieve the family on a constant basis of care

and to give some degree of professional assistance. That

particular center was originally designed for another

occasion and Mr. McCorkel, partly in response to community

request, tried to get it located in Newark and got it put

in here. Now, the problem is if he goes along with our

suggestions, or the suggestions that have been made about

taking it out of this particular 4.7, does the community

lose it and the services that it will provide?

MR. DANZIG: The community

has suggested that it be incorporated in the 46 acres.

MR. WILLIAMS: That is quite

right.

17

MR. DANZIG: The community,

I take it, does not wish to lose it?

MR. WHEELER: First of all,

services of this nature are needed and the community cer-

tainly wants this kind of service. However, our original

position was, and still is, that that kind of service can

be provided within, the 57 and 9/10's acres of land. At

no time have we indicated in the slightest that we did

not want that facility in Newark.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Okay, I

think there are three possibilities, the one which you

suggested is the relocation of the 4.7 facility within

the 57.4. That I take it is your basic position. I think

that is unlikely, but given what I've seen of the land

utilization within.the 57 for the planned facility, it is

worthy of consideration.

MR. WILLIAMS: I know for

a fact that most of the land in the 46.4 acres east of

Newton Street has not been planned at all, at least as

of the time -- is someone here from the Board of Trustees

who can clear us up on that -- as of the time of the last

report made by the architectural firm which is working for

18

the trustees, they had thrown in some diagrams, those dia-

grams were by no means complete, they were just thrown in

because they had to show something, this is straight from

the horses mouth. That acreage could very well be used

for this kind of facility. I think you should go back and

maybe check on that for your own edification. I don't

suppose it would have any advantages of bringing in someone

from the trustees, because they are going to deny this,

but I think someone on the state level that is willing and

able to push for this, I think could be ascertained and we

could go from there.

DR. PINCUS: I think there

is more in this than real estate operation, there is a

call here for professional judgement. .The community Mental

Health Center and the Center for Retarded Children became

possible for the City of Newark which had the highest,

the greatest need for these services in the State. They

became possible through Federal legislation, and the timing

was at different points. We are now at a juncture where

we can rationalize three activities, and I think the pri-

mary need here is professional consideration rather than

real estate. I think the real estate can be adjusted.

19

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Well, as

a matter of fact, I think from a professional point of view

it really doesn't make a bit of difference. Maybe there

is some larger facility to have this facility that we

are talking about located in close proximity to the medical

school, but not necessarily.

D R. PINCUS: I am just

asking that a professional judgement be solicited before

the question is resolved purely on a real estate basis.

MR. WILLIAMS: Just from

using what knowledge I do have about planning and about

medicine, I don't see that having the facility one block

north of the 46 acres makes any difference as opposed to

having it one block east of the same 46 acres.

. DR. PINCUS: You may be

right, I am asking for a hard look at it.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: As a

matter of fact, Doctor, the other night we did have a

comment an this from a professional qualified person who

suggested that there was no need at all to have this

thing, but this is a .,question that needs to be resolved.

Let me outline the possibil-

20

ities as I see them here again.

(1) It would be relocated

within the 57.9.

(2) That it be abandoned

completely --

MR. WHEELER: I would like

. to have you delete that entirely.

MR. WILLIAMS: No one ever

suggested that at all.MR. WHEELER: Let me make

this crystal clear that at no juncture have we suggested

this in the slightest. ANd what I'm saying is that we

want the facility, and if you listen to what was said, it

is only 4-7/lO's acres that you are talking about.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: You want

the facility, but you want it on your terms, period?

MR. WHEELER:. Would .you like

for me to address myself to that?

If I may, first of all, you

raised the question of alternatives about this matter in

and ABC fashion. When you got to the second one. you said

"not to have it at all."

21

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: That's

because you didn't give me a chance to get to the third or

fourth or fifth.

MR. WHEELER: The point of

the matter is that our position is we want the facility

and we. believe that the facility can be housed within the

57-9/10's acres. Now, anything beyond that is purely

suggestive by people other than ourselves.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: And I'm

suggesting now at least another alternative, which is to

relocate it in some other place within the community if it

turns out that the facility could not be accommodated

within the 57.4.

MR. WILLIAMS: I just want

to make a blanket statement. We in the community who have

been in on the negotiations of this thing have been led to

believe that 57 acres was allocated because it was felt

that 57 acres could more than adequately accommodate all

of the medical facilities that any group or anybody wanted

to bring into the City of Newark. Fifty-seven acres is

still not necessary for a medical school. I don't want

anybody to think that we think that all of that land is

22

necessary. You know, we can fall back on other medical

schools and discuss the size and relativity and all that,

but it seems reasonable from all points of view, whether

it just be from the standpoint of real estate, from the

standpoint of the medical profession that that facility

can be very easily accommodated within the 57 acres. All

health facilities should be placed in the 57 acres. That

is our position.

On the basis of that could we

go into the other --

DR. CADMUS: These functions

are not an appropriate use of the land in the medical and

dental education research area.

Secondly, I will rebut your

statement, Mr. Williams, that the land is more than pro-

grammed, money is not attend for each of these new build-

ings, but that land is thoroughly programmed for things

which are a direct relation to medical and dental and

para-medical education, to help education in toto and to

research as a state school, as a national resource, which

we are, and to place a day care center for children ,out

of their homes for during the day is an inappropriate

23,

facility to place on a medical campus.

REV. SHARPER: May I speak

to this, please?

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Yes.

REV. SHARPER: Dr. Cadmus,

it is a fact that Newark is land-locked and land hungry.

It has a lot of sky, however, and there is no limit on the

sky. You can go right on up to the top. All you have to

do is dodge the astronauts, and seemingly we want to say

that we just have to spread out. And we feel that reason

tells us and our common sense, that you can build a univer-

sal Pittsburgh on a limited number of acreage right straight

up, and the medical school\ can be built on less than half

the amount of land. You can build more than you can use

in the next thousand years. You can put two or three

Empire State buildings on limited land. I don't want to

argue about it.

We do believe that you can

go up much more reasonably in Newark than you can go out.

Now, this is our problem. I think Mr. Danzig will attest.

He has told me, he said if you want a parking lot, go

down underground.

24 .

DR. CADMUS: May I just re-

spond to that, because I think here we are getting into

problems of planning, of what is in the public interest,

and I assure you that going up is not recommended by any

authority, it is inflexible, it is expensive, it stops all

future -- destroys relationships, there. is not a planner

in the world who would go backwardsand build a Pittsburgh

cathedral of learning. Quite to the contrary, they have

put housing vertically, but they do not put the things

which are likely to expand and scientific and handling of

large crowds of people in a vertical situation. When you

have a class of a hundred and twelve people changing at

one time, a vertical plan is not efficient. When it has

to expand, you can't expand it efficiently. When you build

it, you can't afford it because there is more expense.

There is no argument whatsoever that vertical construction

is recommended, including Mr. Danzig, if he knew what he

was talking about. He is not the expert, so don't get

your authority from that source. The experts have said

that the planning that we have presented to the Federal

Government is one of the best plans that they have seen,

and I don't think that they would like to see it packaged

25

so that quality education and quality performance and look-

ing at the total cost can be ignored.

So, my point is that we have

a plan which understands Newark, its needs, its land and

its problems. And the problem therefore is do they want

this in an efficient plant or do they not? If we are talk-

ing quality of education and quality of medical care, we

are not trying to get a Tower of Babal located to find it

can't function when it gets there.

MR. DANZIG: I would like to

respond for a moment.

REV. SHARPER: I want to re-

spond too at the proper time, sir.

MR. DANZIG: I had hoped

Dr. Cadmus wouldn't get into personalities, like he knows

what he is talking about. So, as long as you gat personal,

I have to respond in somewhat a personal nature. This

whole issue would never have arisen if these people had

stayed out of my business, which is land and its use in

the urban scene, about which Dr. Cadmus knows nothing.

This facility, like public

or private housing, and every urban scene, in every land-

26

locked city in these United States must go vertical.

is talking about the University of Pittsburgh, the New York

University and a lot of universities in this country. He

ought to begin to talk about the Tufts College of Dentistry

and Medicine on thirteen acres in the City of Boston, and

twenty-two acres for Wayne University, a study we made

that will clearly indicate that 46 plus 11.5 or 9 is more

than adequate to house all the facilities that they will

ever need to get the accreditation that Tufts and the rest

of them already have. This is a.brand new school with a

hundred and forty some odd students on 46 acres.

We sold to Rutgers and the

College of Newark Engineering some forty acres for a pro-

gram twenty-two thousand student body, and then Dr. Cadmus

and his cohorts tell me that I don't know anything about

education, that the medical school and dental school is

quite different because of the laboratory operations and

all that sort of thing -- well, I think that we have had

an exercise in the absurd from the beginning of time when

they tried to make off with a beautiful campus on the

Dodge Estate in Madison.

Dent yaw get personal with

27

me, Dr. Cadmus, because I don't think that this thing has

been reasonable from the very beginning, and now because

of the unreasonableness of the quantity of land, we got

backed up with relocation, we got backed up with a greater

need for housing, and all of our problems were backed up

into the demand for a hundred and fifty acres. And then

it was reduced to a hundred and twelve acres, putting the

lie to the fact that you needed a hundred and fifty. Then .

it was reduced to ninety-eight acres, putting the lie to

the fact that you needed a hundred and twelve. Then it was

reduced'to seventy-five, putting the lie to the fact that

you needed ninety-eight. Now it is reduced to fifty-eight:,.

putting the lie to the fact that you needed seventy-five.

This will be the greatest thing depending upon how you

run it, sir.

DR. CADMUS: I think I have

to challenge many things on this, and I think we have to

do it to get the records straight. It was the City of

Newark with Mr. Danzig and his associates who appeared

before the trustees and offered the medical school a hun-

dred and ninety-six acres. We said we did not want a

hundred and ninety-six acres. We said it had been recom-

28

mended by national experts that we have one hundred and

fifty. We have not nibbled away as Mr.'Danzig has said.

The papers may have nibbled away, certain people may have

'nibbled away, but we have said that we need a hundred and

fifty acres. We finally said that we would make a shift

because of air rights and other things which could conserve

land that we would be able to cut back to -- it was never

spelled out in the number of acres, but we have never

said that we are going to have for all times any size in-

stitution. We are not going to be able to forecast the

future. We are talking, and the trustees have made no

committment, they have not given up. They have not nibbled

away. They have only made it known that we are living in

today's problems, and there are many. We want to get„

medical school into Newark. We feel that we need the

fifty-nine acres, the forty-six point five and the eleven

five. And we had hoped to get the city hospital to operate

this facility. We have never made the dribbling back.

Mr. Danzig, you will have

to say that in public meetings you have offered the entire

Fairmount tract to the college.

MR. DANZIG: That was the

29

first offer we made, was 38 acres, and it was rejected.

That is the truth.

DR. CADt1US : The next offer

was a 196, and we rejected that.

MR. DANZIG: The community

nibbled you away.

RR', CA DS: Let's say we

are talking about two pieces of land, and we are talking

about we are going to decide on what we put on those two

pieces of land. This is a college responsibility, it is

a national responsibility. We have a plan which we could

not recommend following this in what you call vertical.

It would not be a proper use of the public funds in our

opinion and we have talked to the Deans of Tufts, we have

talked to everyone, and there is not a soul in medical ed-

ucation today who is recommending that we would go in a

vertical method and follow these places. Columbia Presby-

terian, you want to look at it, almost looks like what we

are talking about. Here is an example of what they are

now,'started as a small hospital in the middle and it is

way over here. (Dr. Cadmus exhibits a photograph.) It

says " Wouldn't the founders of the hospital have been

30

amazed in one swift century Presbyterian Hospital has ex-

panded into a hospital city. And this is just the hospi-

tal talking, we are not talking medical school, dental

school or para-medical. I think we are talking about the

history of where this started and where it came from.

8ut we are talking today, I hope, two pieces of land, the

eleven and a half and the 45.4 and the seven points of the

HUD letter. We are now talking about use of that land,

vertical or horizontal or anything else. This is not a

function of this meeting to determine how the medical edu-

cation research facilities are built and financed.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Dr. Cadmus,

thank you very much. I was about to observe that I don't

really think this is the place for any of this, however

expert we may think we are in this question, and we are

all experts, I know, including myself about the design of

a medical school and how much land it ought to have.

I do agree with the general

point of view that the community or anyone else may have

an opinion as, for instance, the Child Care Center should

or could be located in the 57 acres. I think we have

identified that. I have told some people that qtr. McCorkel

31

was perfectly willing to relocate the Child Care Center

from the 4.7 -- where it goes after that, it seems to me,

is an open question.

I understand clearly that

you representing the community don't want to move it out

of the community. That is it still should be servicing

the community's needs. The question is where do we put it

down?

MR. WHEELER: I think that

where it goes can be the subject of something else subse-

quently, The basic question was will Mr. McCorkel relin-

quish? You have brought to us that he will.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN.: He will.

MR. WHEELER: So that solves

that aspect of what we presented on the table.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Right.

MR. GIRDERS: I'm Pat Girders,

I'm at Yale University and I'm an architect and City Planner.

As I say, I don't want to take it at this time to respond

to Dr. Cadmus in any long fashion. I want to say I think

it would be a mistake in this kind of session to treat

experts, and as several people have mentioned, as this were

32

some kind of magical or holy thing. I know enough about

the medical profession to know that there is a jargon,

it takes a while to learn a great number of things about

it, but there is nothing holy about it.

The policies for these kinds

of decisions, I think, can be made here. They don't need

policy decisions to be made by experts.

I think as far as the land,

I doubt that any hospital administrator would recommend a

small quantity of land. The U.S. Public Health Service,

they suggest, as the largest size for a medical center,

that a 150 acres would be nice. And I think if you had

a 150 acres you could build a magnificent center on it.

But I think Dr. Cadmus is not realizing the other use of

the land. The question is at whose request does this land

come from? And the real question that I think has to be

addressed and which the profession can be useful, is that

the medical center can be done on kss acreage than we are

talking about. I don't say it should be, but that's what

we are talking about.

DR. CADMUS: I believe this

gentleman was quoting a manual that I was on the committee

33

that halped . write it.. You were inaccurate when you said

they didn't address themselves to acreage.

MR. GIRDERS: I say there is

a paragraph --

DR. CADMUS: It was a minimum

of fifty to seventy-five, a hundred and fifty if possible,

and more if it would be available, and everyone of the new

medical schools that have been created since World War II

have been created on larger acreages than we are talking

about today, except for one, which is Mt. Sinai, and their

tall structures were refused funding or not approved by

zoning and has to be redesigned to a lower structure..

REV. SHARPER: I think we

might come back to the main point I'm trying to make here,

whether you build a log cabin or the Tower of Babal, land

is at a premium. We just don't have a lot of land, We

have to work within the limits of what we have in compari-

son to what other people need. I am a friend of the medi-

cal school. I want it more'than I expect you do, because

I need the service, but at the same time we just -- Wash-

ington doesn't have the land here in Newark to give that.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I think

34

the point that does emerge here, wherever this facility,

whether within the 57 or else where, we now have 4.7 acres

of reasonably well cleared land if the City Housing Author-

ity would turn it back over once Mr. McCorkel releases it.

It is available immediately for housing.

MR. WILLIAMS: Could we get

some commitment: from Mr. Danzig on that point? Will this

land be redesignated for housing?

MR. WHEELER: It doesn't

have to be, it has already been designated for housing.

MR. WILLIAMS: I want to hear

Mr. Danzig say that.

MR._DANZIG: Our original

plan is as Verner Henry said it was, the only reason for

change was to accommodate the medical school.

Now then, with the relinquish-

ment of the land in the total Fairmount project we go back

to the original plan, and that's a commitment.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: We could

put this a little further. Not only does it go into hous-

ing, but I assume it would also go into community developed

houses.

35

MR. MOORE: Is that a.commit-

ment also?

MR. DANZIG: Yes.

A SPEAKER: May we have

clarification on the facility itself? Is its primary

purpose for retarded children?

CHANCELLOR DCNGAN: It has

one purpose to take care of the mentally retarded children,

plus clinical remedial work.

It also has another function

where children who immediately are in some kind of distress

or social reasons, it is a shelter, a home for those children

until foster homes or other arrangements can be made. But

it is basically the day care center for mentally retarded

youngsters.

MR. JACKSON: James Jackson,

I represent Project START. It is a little frustrated to

me representing this field of people in the community to

have this very needed service being kicked around so

heavily the way it is about the number of acres of land.

I think the acreage is a little important, yes, but the

community up there needs this service and I don't think

36

they understand all this having to hamper from one extreme

to the other. I think we should reach a more systematic

attack. It is frustration that we are talking about, and

this thing is really needed for the services that it can

give to the community.

I'd like to go on-and say

this, that I myself, personally, feel that the number of

acres is not nearly as important as having facilities

simply located where the people can less afford it. That

this be convenient for those people. And that is my pri-

mary interest. I think it is a good thing for the City of

Newark and I think that there has been some subscribed

acreage willing to be accepted, and I think that if it

has to go beyond that point, if this is the health and

welfare of people, I think we should stop worrying about

it.

I think these few people that

represent everybodys' views in the community, I don't think

it is everybodys' views, I think it is one segment's point

of view. I think there are tither people that have points

of views and interest as well.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I thank

37

,r

you very much, and I might say that following that, that's

the course why we are all here. I think everyone here is

interested in the medical school. What we are trying to

do is to resolve, and, if possible, conciliate the points

of view of various people and to bring the service to the

community. If we can, great, if we can't, no medical

school.

MR. HARRIS: My name is Gerald

Harris. Mr. Danzig's remarks that this available land

other than the land that's allotted will be used for hous-

ing, and a point of clarification I would like to get is

this; from Mr. Danzig, will the Parker Combine be the Lord

of this land in any manner?

MR. DANZIG: The newspaper,

as a result of the last meeting, printed that Parker had

the options on Fairmount, and that was not so. Other than

the commitment that I spoke of, public commercial is not

committed to Parker or any other developer.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Mr. Harris,

to answer your point directly, the 4.7 acres that we were

justtalking about that has been or will be relinquished by

the institutions and agencies is not committed to anybody

38

and would be committed for housing development for a commu-

nity base organization.

Now, let's move an to the

other --

REV. SHARPER: There is a

shopping center site to be proposed. Who is that committed

to?

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: To Parker,

as I understand.

HR. DANZIG: No, it has not.

The last meeting there was a great deal of confusion in

trying to set up the format of the meeting, and we got lost

in a maze of misapprehensions, if I can understand it, the

people are here with whom I had discussions, and the only

thing I have with them is a verbal commitment, which, of

course, is cancellable by (1) the City Council, the Hous-

ing Authority, HUD, and now the community which is part

of the whole bit. So that this is a Newark based community

group for the commercial, which we think is a necessary one.

When I talked last week about

housing, I also added the term "related facilities." Now,

related facilities importantly are local shopping centers,

t

39

Lf

people that buy bread, rolls and potatoes and also churches.

These are community related to housing --

MR. WHEELER: Mr. Chancellor,

first of all, so that we don't get bogged down in lack of

continuity, you have come back stating that Mr. McCorkel

is prepared to relinquish 4-7/lob acres, so that is now

history.

The other item dealt with

the options and the option holders as it related to the

R-6 tract.

MR. DANZIG: Let's finish

Fairmount, please, Harry, so we don't get confused.

MR. WHEELER: Let me just

finish.

MR. DANZIG: This is where

the confusion comes.

MR. WHEELER: The last thing

that I want to do is cause confusion, but the point of the

matter is that we are dealing with it as we had set it up.

Now, we addressed ourselves to that commercial effort on

the part of a Negro group building a shopping center. And

we made it very clear that we didn't care what group was

40 -

trying to build it. The first preference had to be in the

Fairmount tract housing, and as a result of that the first

thing we did was to work with that that was workable.

Therefore the request to you to go back to Mr. McCorkel.

Now, if we are prepared now

to address ourselves to the shopping center, which I under-

stand has five, six or seven acres of land, I don't know

the exact total, which there was a hearing on on January

31st, I'm simply saying that the philosophy as it related

to the state institutions and agencies and their Mental

Retardation Center is also applicable to any other venture

that does not represent housing. Because the key to what

the community is talking about is medical school and hous-

ing.

Now, they're the top priorities,

and if we are prepared now to address ourselves to that, I

would simply say to Mr. Danzig that from the community

point of view we would expect him to do the same kind of

job in terms of relinquishment that you have done, Chan-

cellor, as it relates to your cabinet colleague, Mr. McCorkel.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Is it

true that there was a hearing on the 1st of Januaryabout

41

this particular land?

MR, WHEELER: 31st of January.

MR. DANZIG: Of course it is

true, that's the understanding that we had with the community,

with HUD, with everybody, that there be that hearing.

MR. WHEELER: Now, I'm simply

talking about that we remain consistent in the request and.

the fact that it's being sponsored by Negroes does not serve

as a deterrent as it relates to the premise that we have.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Let me

ask you something, and this is at least a quasi technical

question: Is it feasible to combine both commercial and

residential and technical use for this idea of following

up Rev. Sharper's views before of moving up?

MR. WILLIAMS: I think that

is very feasible. I think that kind of planning would

have to be talked about and we can only do that when we

know exactly how much acreage we do have available for

housing, which I think is very important.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: To iden-

tify the whole matter.

MR. WILLIAMS: The whole

42

matter. To talk about the 7.5 acres, and that will, in

essence give some bearing on the commercial development of

the area.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Mr. Danzig,

could you tell us for information purposes this commercial --

MR. DANZIG: Pass this map

down.

Now, the commercial is up

here on West Market Street, Wiss, is now a factory building,

it employes 600 people, and we had this piece in the FHA,

and they turned us down for multiple housing in its use.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: We are

talking about 4.9 acres here bounded by -- 4.9 acres

bordered by Berger and Market and Littleton Street, is

that correct?

MR. DANZIG: Yes, Parcel 12.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Now,

what we are talking about is whether that particular 4.9

acres might be developed commercial-residential. And Mr..

Williams suggested before we really get into that in detail,

we ought to try to identify what is the total amount of

]and that might be available for immediate starts on hous-

43

ing. We have identified 4.7, the McCorkel tract.

MR. DANZIG: There is another

piece, 2.9:

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: We are

talking about Parcel 15, 15A and 12 in the Fairmount tract.

MR. DANZIG: You see,

Chancellor, you are switching from Fairmount to R-6.

MR. WHEELER: Look at 29A.

Is that part of the 11.5?

MR. DANZIG: All that is

marked medical college.

MR. WHEELER: Is it 11.5?

MR. DANZIG: Yes, going

MR. WHEELER: Look at 24A,

MR. DANZIG: It is not

MR. WHEELER: It is not

MR. DANZIG: No, sir.

MR. WHEELER: All of the

down to Bruce Street.

is the land cleared?

cleared.

cleared?

44

necessary executions up to demolition have been taken care

MR. DANZIG: We have the

MR. WHEELER: Then could we

MR. DANZIG: When I say we

have the money, we have an allocation for the whole project.

MR. WHEELER: Then are we

in a position to add that 4.6 acres to 4.7 and 2.9 for

housing?

MR. DANZIG: The January

31st meeting, Harry, approved the reuses. That was a reuse

meeting and everything that is marked on there has already

been approved.

MR. WHEELER: I simply want

MR. DANZIG: I have the

MR. WHEELER: That is 4.6,

4.7, 2.9, and what I'm suggesting is that the 4.9 under

commercial be designated as 4.9 housing.

of?

money for it.

add that 4.6 acres?

to-be sure.

map.

45

MR. DANZIG: I will not do

that because people have to buy bread, rolls, potatoes

and everything else. That could be combined with the

2.9 and something a little higher than a one story struc-

ture for commercial.

MR. WHEELER: Repeat that?

MR. DANZIG: We could very

readily have commercial on the ground floor and housing

on the second floor.

MR. WHEELER: All right.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: There

is no reason why we couldn't be thinking of that retarda-

tion center in some sort of a mixed use.

MRS. EPPERSON: Chancellor,

I really think that we could bring schools along with

housing, that schools and all could be put like on the

first floor or the first two floors or something, and

with houses above, since we are so poor with land.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: If I

may say so, and I think we have to be very, very candid

with the community and with ourselves on this, the kind

of mixed use that we are talking about here, commercial-

46

residential or institutional-residential, or even if it

were purely housing, is going to take some time to plan

it well. Even if we took this whole 15A and 1512 here

and put it together.

REV. SHARPER: You can't

MR. DANZIG: The design has

MR. MOORE: Let me address

myself to this 3.9. Have you an appropriation for clear-

MR. DANZIG:. We will have

MR. MOORE: How about adding

MR. DANZIG: We did, I

thought. Take the map with you. The letters "NTBA" mean

"Not to be acquired." We have no money for these things.

That is all that means. And that need not be permanent,

so that one day the sum of the NTBA may go back in for

acquisition. Again, that will be for housing reuse.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: We are

do it overnight.

not been accommodated.

ance in this land?

the money for all that.

the 3.9?

47

talking reuse, real estate, what's it going to be used for?

MR. WHEELER: May I make a

request of Mr. Danzig? Would it be humanly possible for

us to get one of these maps?.

MR. DANZIG: I say there is

one map for you and one map for the record.

MR. WHEELER: Fine.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: What we

are talking about here is 22.1 acres that could be used

for housing development or for mixed commercial housing or

institutional housing, schools, etcetera. All in the

Fairmount tract.

MR. WHEELER : At least 50%

of it has been cleared?

MR. DANZIG: On the black

marked "The Morris Bruce Avenue," that is the Bruce Street

school.

It is our considered judge-

ment it ought to be torn down and a new school built an

the whole block as a related facility to housing, just

as it is necessary to buy a newspaper and a bottle of

milk. We don't have money for it, but as these projects

48

go, we can file for an amendment, depending upon the ulti-

mate function of the plan. We can apply for money.

MR. WHEELER: Chancellor,

if I may, at this point, we have gone over carefully what

is there. Now, what can we do to implement it to the

paint of commitment to tie it to the 57.9 so that we have

now come together with the two most critical points?

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: The

acreage where we started out the first night and housing,

now, I can say to you right now, and I do it --

MR. DANZIG: Before we say

anything, please, so that there is no misunderstanding.

There is another item in there which I mentioned at the

last meeting, and that's 52, which is that whole block.

By the way, that NTBA on Bergen Street,. that's the City

Hospital, the other NTBA is the nurses' home, and we think

that whale block ought to be rounded out for the 4.2.

And, gentlemen, please, maybe in these 4.2 acres we can

put the nurses expansion and the mental health facility.

You may be able to do that.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: It I

may make a suggestion here, I think we ought to think,

L.

1

1+9

all of us ought to think about this tract and not talk about

it here. What I would like to say here and in everybody's

hearing is that we agree with the community definitely that

the 22.1 acres should be planned primarily for residential,

for housing, with possibility of commercial and school or

allied supportive services.

MR. MOORE: One small addition

is in parcel 2, 2.2 acres, there is a motor vehicle station

there, but there is also delapidated housing, marked resi-

dential, and it can be cleared. So this can also be used

in the total picture. So it ups the total to 24.3 in the

same area.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I don't

know that area.

MR. DANZIG: Gentlemen, I

would rather not go by anybody elses arithmetic. I think

this map ought to be made part of your record, sir, and

you take a copy of it. We have a copy in our shop, and

this would be the official map, this will be the official

understanding, subject to McCorkel putting it, perhaps,

over here, and deleting some, reducing some, expanding

others so we can work the whole bit in.

50

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I would

also like to say that I stand also by what I said the

other night, recognizing that some of this is going to

take some time to be available as a residence for somebody

in the community. Nobody gets moved from the 46 acres

until there is an acceptable house available for them,

including Mrs. Epperson.

MRS. EPPERSON: Thank you,

that's one of the things you did reed my mind, but not

per se. I want to say that this mental health for these

retarded children, I am quite interested in it, and I

still maintain that along with housing we should make

facilities for these children. I work with retarded chil-

dren every day, and I know it isnot easy for neighborhoods

to accept them, except they be educated to the point to

know that they are human, and that they too need places

to live and that they are most desirable in any neighbor-

hood. For the simple reason that I work for one of the

largest retardation schools in the world, and in the very

housing that we have for those children to live in, to

go to school in, above them we have doctors, nurses, and

everybody living in the same building with the children.

51

So I think that the neighborhood could have a little educa-

tion in this type of planning, and don't say that we don't

want the retardation schools because - there certainly is

room for them, along with housing.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I agree.

I think, in fact, there are some very good points to do

it with.

-

One thing now, this may be

pushing us a little bit further than any of us are prepared

to go, but I think it ought to appear on the record that

these 22 or 23 acres, 24 or whatever it is, I think we have

to be very cognizant of, the way that this land gets devel-

aped. It seems to me that in keeping with the whole spirit

of this conversation, that is community orientation that

this land ought to be developed for the profit of nobody,

except the people who live there.

MR. WHEELER: - Right, a non-

profit community.

REV. SHARPER: It seems as

if Rev. Perry is a little inquisitive about his situation.

It seems that he's in the 46 acre tract, and he thought,

he said some arrangement had been made for churches, and

52

I think he was wondering if he was included in that?

REV. PERRY: Yes. Mr. Danzig

said that he hed room for churches in that area, but when

I went over, as soon as I was told that they were going to

take our church, and I called Mr. Danzig and he said sure,

come on over. 5o I went over and then I sat down and

talked with him and he told me definitely that there was

no land available anywhere for any church.

MR. DANZIG: Reverend, I did

not say today that there was land available here for

churches. As a matter of fact, a church is planned here,

the Bethany Baptist with firm commitment. Now, what I

said was that when we talked in our shop about housing,

we talk about related facilities tp housing, like schools,

like shopping, like churches, and these to me are related

facilities to housing.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Reverend,

in effect what Mr. Danzig is saying, and I'm not certain

that anyone planning the reuse of this land would cognizant

of the requirements of your congregation and yourself, I

think the fact of the matter is that no one can identify

here today a site in which your site, to which your church

53

would be relocated. But if your congregation, say, you

know, I'm sure it is, a viable congregation that needs a

home, it will get a home.

REV.. PERRY: It is really too

late for rushing now, because many people are talking

about the medical school. We took a terrific beating in

this thing and yet we felt that we needed the school and

yet I feel that our loss to accommodate the school is really

greater than we will be able to pay, but we are willing

to try. In the meantime, what I'm saying is that if Mr.

Danzig had given us an idea that maybe we would have had

some land somewhere, we wouldn't have went as far as we

did, because we went and signed a contract to make a new

purchase for the church: But what I'm saying is we took

a tremendous loss.

MR. DA-NZIG: Reverend,

the 46 acres, and I don't want to get off the subject of

Fairmount until it is settled, the question of the 46

acres, the project is still not ours. So I have no author-

ity to deal in the 46 acres.

MR. WHEELER: . What I'd like

to do is to get further down . the road step by step, but

54

before we come to that, what I would like to suggest is

the machinery for having Mr. McCorkel put in writing to

the appropriate receiving authority -- now, it could very

well be to Mr. Danzig of the Newark Housing Authority

with a copy to Mr. Smith and Mr. Cadmus, who is the church

man and president of the medical college. So that that

part is taken care of, and we can close that part of the

negotiation.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: It will

be done Monday.

MR. WHEELER: The next step,

if I may, in keeping what we started with, is that we get

involved in what we've described as the housing game. Be-

cause under that, there were some specific information re-

quested by the community, and the following was requested:

(1) How much of the R-6 tract is cleared land?

How much acreage?

(2) Who controls this land by option or other-

wise?

(3) What is the machinery necessary to free

some of this land for housing?

MR. DANZIG: Are we finished

55

with Fairmount?

CHANCELLOR DUNCAN: Yes, we

are now talking about R-6.

A SPEAKER: I think there

are some matters of just plain common sense that I hope

that we are zeroing in so that we get some compromise to

address ourselves to all of the need. I want to very

strongly re-enforce the position of the negotiating team,

and even the point that Rev. Sharper made so tellingly at

the conclusion of the evening the other night, that groups

such as people here might well be involved in the under-

taking of sponsorship of housing, particularly on this land

in the vicinity of, well, the proposed shopping area in

the Fairmount project. I want to project that very clearly.

I have knowledge of several projects in town where land

presumably is being sprung off possibly for favored Negro

groups as against those which might have been militant.

I thought I made it very clear that the total of the 22

or 23 acres that we are talking about here would be used

on a non-profit basis by a group of developers, or a de-

veloper representing the community as broadly represented

as we can get it. If that principle isn't clear, then I

56

have been wasting my time here,

A SPEAKER : I accept that,

but I wanted to say also that having addressed myself

strongly to the point that community people such as are

here, I have additional knowledge with regard to church

needs, churches that are being put out.

Now, there are churches, I

believe, that have requested land in the Fairmount project,

some of which do not have to relocate and have no emergency

need for getting land in that project. However, I do have

another major congregation which is going to be put out

almost right away by the East-West Freeway construction,

and I think they have been interested in a church and

other types of development in the Fairmount project over

a period of a couple of years, and I think we ought to be

aware of that and reconcile all of these needs.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: The only

thing I would say on that, I don't think it is our purpose

here to decide on how this land will be reused. Our pur-

pose, basically here, is to identify land that could be

used for housing, since it is the most critical question

associated with the medical school.

5?

MR. DAVIDSON: We may not

accomplish our ultimate aim of planning, but we might de-

cide that a certain mechanism for planning would be more

suitable than another, and make firm commitment to that.

Who is going to supply the money for planning? Who is

going to do the planning? Who is going to review the

planning? Perhaps, you know, for the purpose of a meeting

such as this, when we are trying to continue to identify

areas, we might move on from Fairmount to another part of

the city to another project, and I think we may have to

come back and come back in even smaller groups to begin to

hammer out details.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Mr. David-

son, my whole purpose in stating that other principle as

strongly as I did, is that that next step that you talk

about is done within a framework of principle which is

acceptable not only to the community but to all others in

the City and the State and the Federal Government. I agree

with you the necessity to work out a mechanism by. which

the planning of this land is undertaken is very important.

It didn't seem to me that the minimum requirements have

been established, and I would be perfectly willing today

58

or in subsequent meetings to try to hammer out some more

specifics about the mechanism.

MR. WILLIAMS: I agree with

what Mike has said. I'd like to put in a few more things

and then make a suggestion.

I think we also need to talk

in general about how people such as Mr. Danzig, who is

in it, know, and any other officials who may be here, how

they are thinking, what they are thinking in terms of the

timing involved for the development, in terms of how many

people are still in the area that has been considered for

housing, how many of these people still must be relocated

because they must be considered.

We'd also like to know some-

thing about the density of the units involved, given a

certain amount of land, how many units you are going to

get into it, and I think that will be reflected in our de-

cision about how we are going to use the land.

I think that some kind of

mixed usage should be planned for schools., for churches

and for commercial development.

Now, that will have a great

59

deal with how many units we ultimately come up with.

I'd like to suggest that we

find out first of all how much absolute acreage is availa-

ble, and then number two, we can come back and consider

all of these things in the context of land available in

R-6, land available in Fairmount and elsewhere for the

total planning. And also how this particular planning is

going to come about.

MR. DANZIG: Now we are going

to get involved in something that takes considerable time,

and I am willing to abide by the discussions conclusion

that there be community participation, there be community

participation beginning at the planning stage of this

project. I don't think that time permits from the schedule

of the medical school to get all these planning things

agreed upon.

MR. WILLIAMS: I didn't sug-

gest that we plan the houses, not from the point of design.

I am saying in terms of getting-a basic notion of where

we are at, so we have some kind of understanding.

MR. DANZIG: Now then, I

want to address myself to a question Mr. Davidson raised,

60

the planning, who is going to pay for it? What did you

have in mind, Mr. Davidson?

MR. DAVIDSON: If the commu-

nity is going to take an active part in planning this area,

someone is going to have to provide money for the community

to retain planners.

MR. DANZIG: That's why . l

picked up this whole thing again to see if we can re-establish

some faith and confidence and move forward.

Now, your planner is this

gentleman here, is that right?

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Can we

hold this?

MR. DANZIG: Wait a minute.

Now, I thought we were negotiating. I think that this

could break the nub of the whole proposition.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Maybe my

sense of order is not everyone elses, but it seems to me,

accordingly, I agree with Mr. Williams, that what we must

do here is decide the total amount in the Fairmount tract,

in R-6 that might be available and elsewhere. And then. to

figure out what the relocation problem is, and how, when,

61

before we get into the question of defining the mechanism

by which the land use and the design --

MR. DANZIG: And do you take

it that that can be done today?

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: What I

think we can do is -- I don't know how far we can go today

is to at least identify the total amount of acreage that

might be available to be used.

MR. WHEELER: With that in

mind, can we now address ourselves to: the information that

we requested as it relates to R-6?

MR. BROWN: I have a question

here that disturbs me somewhat. This meeting and the pre-

vious meeting has . concerned itself with limiting the acreage

for the school and in conjunction therewith to presumably

make more acreage available for housing and the community.

Now, my question is this, in regard to the limiting acreage

for the medical school, and in conjunction therewith pro-

viding more land availability for housing, are we proceed-

ing to a juncture whereby this group only determines the

mechanism, number one, as to how that land use availability

will be applied, and, number two, who, what and to what

62

extent community groups will participate anywhere in the

land availability? .

CHANCELLOR.DUNGAN: I would

like to say that we are proceeding on the question of who

and what the mechanism is for the decision on the use. The

same way we have proceeded on all of this, that is there

is a negotiating team representing the community whom we

have agreed at our first meeting agreed to talk with with

the understanding that anybody else in the community can

participate in the process. In other wards, what we are

going to try to do is to work out this mechanism, the same

way we've worked out everything else.

MR. WHEELER: With the empha-

sis being on a community sponsored non-profit process.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: That's

right.

REV. SHARPER: Miss Epperson

and Mr. Henry and other groups coming in to work.

MR. BROWN: The only point

I'm concerned with is if you have one group determining

and setting the framework for the mechanism by which this

whole plan is to go forward, then that group is going to

63

have to be highly selective and representative of the

community to a sufficient extent that that mechanism itself

does not foreclose by its very existence community groups.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I think

we quite agree. That's exactly what I've been trying to

say all day.

MR. DANZIG: So there be no

misunderstanding -- you, sir, as the Chairman, conducting

these meetings agreed to ground rules that this would be

the negotiating group, that they did not represent the en-

tire community, that because of their efforts this long

year, their efforts, they were entitled to do the negotia-

ting, that they were not, therefore, the community group.

That all community groups would participate in the decision

making and in the reconstruction of this project.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Correct,

R-6.

MR. WHEELER: R-6. And the

three specific areas (a) How many acres of the R-6 tract

today is cleared? (b) Who is the option holder on this

acreage, if there is an option holder? And (c) If there

is an option holder, what can we do to free this acreage

64

for building of housing under community non-profit sponsor-

ship?

MR. DANZIG: I have two more

maps. May I identify the term option?

We have contracts. Now, here

you have the R-6 project with all the things, I'm sure,

the community will recognize as being in place, so that

we have the school in place, high Park Gardens in place,

Scudder Homes in place, J.F. Kennedy Memorial construction,

the Morton Street school playground and the 138 units in

Parcel 6 is under construction.

And then we move over to the

left -- please -- the Mt. Pleasant Baptist Church is com-

pleted.

The N.A. at West Kinny Street

is the Abysinian Baptist Church.

And Parcel 5 was conveyed

to that church for community use.

Now then, we go past High

Park Gardens and we find right now that the 78 units will

be under construction, there has been a commitment issue.

And then there is, I think -- well, that's it. Those two

65

i

u

are under construction.

MR. WILLIAMS: Could we attempt

to get some kind of order in our discussion on this?

MR. WHEELER: Would you hold --

MR. DANZIG: You asked the

question as to what land is available, who are the option

holders, I'm trying to describe it from the map.

MR. WHEELER: May I ask this . ,

Mr. Danzig, that first of all in your description that you

give us the total amount of acreage that is clear?

MR. DANZIG: I don't have the

total with me.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Can we

identify the tracts?

MR. DANZIG: We are identi-

fying those things that are in place and those things that

ere under construction, those things that are committed,

like the Perry Funeral Parlor and the St. Nicholas Church

and the Israel Memorial Church, and we are identifying

further the Newark Citizens showing the -- no, no, that's

that pretty block of houses.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Could

66

we go down the list on the upper left here and just --

MR. DANZIG: Please, I'm

getting down now to what is committed so I can talk about

what is available.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: All right,

sir.

MR. DANZIG: Now then, we

have the brick layers union, which has its commitment,

hopefully, as soon as weather breaks they will be under

construction, that is Parcel 15 on High Street.

MR. DAVIDSON: I think

Chancellor's suggestion probably is the clearest analysis,

and reading the transcript we will be able to identify

parcel by parcel.

MR. DANZIG:' 1 want to pro-

duce the map in evidence, because even when I finish,

these folks are going to ask for an opportunity to examine

this thing.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Go ahead,

Mr. Danzig.

MR. DANZIG: Let me finish,

please.

67

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Let's

have a little order, please.

MR. DANZIG: Now, we have a

commitment to the Y.M.C.A. for half of that block, 23A

over in Avon, they're going to build a half a million

dollar installation there.

We have a commitment, as you

know, Charlton Street school will eventually be torn down

by the highway and we need to, therefore, rebuild it, and

that's a commitment. We have an obligation approved for

Green Acres, which we have had to cut back because of the

highway changing its alignment, so that shows that Green

Acre Park, and we have a commitment to the Boy's Club of

America for Parcel 24.

Now, this sector here, 24,

25, 26 and 23 needs to be completely replanned, there have

been many changes in there by. reasons of the shift ofthe

highway, and that is in the process of being worked over

by our planners. We wouldn't hesitate one iota if group

planners were to come in and if the State of New Jersey

wanted to come in. So, in conclusion, I want to say this,

very little in this tract which is not committed and under

68

I)

construction.

MR. WHEELER: May I just

raise this question, would Mr. Danzig identify those tracts

that have no commitment, but have been cleared?

MR. WILLIAMS: Let's just

start with that land, all right, vacant?

MR. WHEELER: Vacant or cleared

and no commitment.

MR. DANZIG: Well, there

isn't anything in here, really, there is very little. Let

me identify what I'm saying. When you take a look at 70 --

when we take a look at this huge area, you will find that

it is 2/3's finished in place with the stuff we don't in-

tend to take out and the stuff that we put back in, 2/3's

is finished, a substantial part will be taken by the Midtown

Inter-connector leaving these buffer zones. We have com-

plaints now from Stella Wright, they need additional park-

ing. So, when we talk about parking, I don't know how

much shallow land facing the Midtown Inter-connector that

is not likely to be built for sometime. It could be oper-

ative to utilize that and possibly the rights are left

open to the inter-connector, that's open.

69

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: When you

add all that together, if 31 is 4 acres, the air rights

of 30 would be in excess of 4, possibly that would repre-

sent 10 or better acres. This likewise 8 or somewhat acres.

In other words, there is very little land now that is va-

cant or clear, practically we could say zero that is not

under commitment.

MR. DANZIG: Construction,

or that far gone with planned specifications and invest-

ment that we could really take back.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: In other

words, there is no land that is now committed which could

be renegotiated, which commitment could be renegotiated,

would you say that?

MR. DANZIG: I would say

that only because the Garden Apartments here are co-operative

and that's the finest community participation, to co-operate

and getting to ownership, I don't know what you can have

as a finer degree of community participation.

REV. SHARPER: Condominiums

and a single family house.

MR. WHEELER: Tell us the

70

parcels of land that have been cleared and are under option

to Jack Parker.

-MR. DANZIG: That are not

yet built on?

MR. WHEELER: That's right.

MR. DANZIG: Parcel 21 is

not yet built on.

MR. MOORE: How many acres

is that?

MR. DANZIG: I would say that

is 4.7.

as.

MR. WHEELER: What is the

acreage?

MR. DANZIG: 399.

6?

construction.

construction?

MR. WILLIAMS: Parcel 6.

MR. WHEELER: What is Parcel

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Under

MR. WILLIAMS: What is under

71

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: 6.

MR. WILLIAMS: Where?

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Is there

any land under commitment to Parker. which is not now being

built on, and, if so, which tract, which parcel?

MR. DANZIG: 21, 8B, which

is not altogether clear, and 78.

MR. WHEELER: 78 did you say?

What is the acreage on 78?

MR. DANZIG: 78 has 2.26

acres, which we are now negotiating with the church.

. MR. WILLIAMS: What church?

MR. DANZIG: A community

church.

MR. WILLIAMS: What community

church, what is the name of it?

MR. DANZIG: Rev. Skinner's

church.

MR. DAVIDSON: Are these the

only parcels that are committed to Parker that have not

yet been built upon?

MR. DANZIG: A piece of this

72

is clear, Parcel 23.

MR. DAVIDSON: Is that cam-

mitted to Parker?

MR. WHEELER : What is the

acreage on Parcel 23?

MR. DANZIG: 4.2.

MR. WILLIAMS: What about

Parcel 10?

MR. DANZIG: That is not

cleared.

MR. WILLIAMS: Who is it

committed to?

MR. DANZIG: I said earlier

we have a contract with the whole thing with Jack Parker.

MR. MOORE: Cleared and

uncleared?

MR. DANZIG: Yes. I said

that the last week, and you laughed last week, and I said

it again today to give you another laugh.

Let the record show that he

advertised for bids and it was awarded at a time when no

one else was building.

73

MR. WHEELER: What are the

other tracts, Mr. Danzig, if there are any?

MR. DANZIG: When I say it is

cleared, there are several parcels on it, maybe eighty,

ninety percent cleared.

MR. WHEELER: What is the

total acreage of the R-6 tract?

Parker has a contract for the

whole R-6 tract. What is the total acreage?

MR. DANZIG: That's too much

to add u

MR. DAVIDSON: What are

Parker's rights and your rights on those options?

MR. DANZIG: If he doesn't

build when financing is available, and there isn't any

financing available, we take back the land.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: In other

words, Mr. Danzig, if a community group comes up and had

financing and a plan available for Tract #21, you could

take back --

MR. DANZIG: I didn't say

that, I said if the land were completely cleared and financing

74

were available and he didn't build, we would cancel that

sector of the contract.

MR. MOORE: The other side

of the coin here, if the land is clear and another private

group, non-profit, comes up with financing, can you revoke

his option? Can it be cancelled?

MR. DANZIG: This becomes a

legal question. I haven't practiced law in twenty-five

years.

MR. LOFTON: Is it possible

to get a copy of the contract? The legal document, what-

ever the document is, contract or otherwise, letter of

agreement, between Mr. Danzig and Mr. Parker?

-

MR. MOORE: Ollie, specifically,

we want to talk about the contract and another document

they call a disposition contract, because all we've seen

so far has been a contract. If you are going to talk

about the whole thing, make sure when he gives you the

information, included in that information is the disposition

contract.

MR. WILLIAMS: In other words,

you want the full rights that Jack Parker has.

75

MR. WHEELER: May I raise

two other questions? Take a look at 28 and 31. Now, am

I-to assume that Mr. Parker, since he e -holds the option,

has entered into negotiations with the. city to give this

land up for parking?

MR. DANZIG: No, sir.

MR. WHEELER: You have it

for the City of Newark?

MR. DANZIG: We control all

land for public -use. That's an exception in the contract,

as Mr. Lofton was saying. For example, we did not have to

ask him for the land for Scudders Homes or the J. F.

Kennedy Memorial or any of these other things. When it

comes to private people we had no trouble getting a re-

lease for the Mt. Pleasant Church, the Israel Memorial

and all that.

MR. WHEELER: Mr. Danzig,

228?

MR. DANZIG: That's Dr.

Philim who is on that corner, and that we have no money

for.

MR. WHEELER: Hold it. Let

76

me get the legal things together. The contract is to

Parker on all of this. Now, what is the whole of Philio

in this piece?

MR. DANZIG: I just mentioned

Dr. Philio to identify that he is still there, that these

blocks' are still occupied and these are plans.

MR. WHEELER: It is designated

for. commercial, is that correct?

MR. DANZIG: For thetime

being.

MR. WHEELER: What is the

acreage on this?

MR. WILLIAMS: .65 acres.

MR. WHEELER: 17?

MR. DANZIG: What do you

want to know about 17?

MR. WHEELER: I want to

know whether or not this is under any kind of construction.

MR: DANZIG: Nothing, we

didn't buy it.

MR. WILLIAMS: Under the

Parcel 14, Newark Citizens Urban Renewal Corporation, I

77

know Larry Starks has something to do with that, what kind

of arrangement with Jack Parker did this corporation make

to get access to the land?

MR. DANZIG: We asked Jack

Parker to work with that group and he assigned that land

to them.

MR. WHEELER: In other words,

he, relinquished that land? In other words, there is prec-

edent for Parker relinquishing land?

MR. WILLIAMS: What were

the conditions for the relinquishing of this land?

MR. DANZIG: He can't make

a profit on the land by simple assignment.

MR. WHEELER: Can we come

back to 17?

MR. DANZIG: Yes. I'm look-

MR. WHEELER: Could we add

ing right at it.

this to the land that we have been talking about with the

understanding that we'd ask Mr. Parker to relinquish this

land to a broad based community group similar to what he

has done with the Newark Citizens Urban Renewal Corporation?

78

MR. DANZIG: First of all

you are talking about vacant available land and you are

now talking about land that we didn't buy, that isn't

cleared.

MR. WILLIAMS: What is the

validity of the distinction?

MR. DANZIG: You asked me,

and it is what I am still on, the subject of vacant land.

So when you ask me about 17, I tell you we don't own it,

we haven't bought it, it isn't clear.

MR. WILLIAMS: Is the dis-

- tinction that you are making if the land is vacant, that

means you have bought it, Parker has options to it?

,MR. DANZIG: Options to the

whole thing.

MR. WILLIAMS: When does

the option fall due?

MR. DANZIG; His contract

calls for him to redevelop this area in the uses agreed

upon between the planners in our shop, the planners in

the City Planning Department and the planners of HUD sub-

ject to public hearings which we have had. And subject

79

to blight hearing, public hearing on uses and reuses. Now,

if any use is changed substantially, we have to go to

another public hearing. So I am trying to say to you that

we have a contract with Parker for the whole area on con-

ditions that certain land is exempt from the contract for

public and quasi public use. And the condition is that,

and it is understood by everybody that if financing is

available for housing or commercial, and he doesn't build,

we give it to somebody who has financing available.

MR. WILLIAMS: So same of

the land that is not vacant now could be signed over to

other community groups by Jack Parker?

MR. DANZIG: Exactly.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I think

what we should attempt to do here, since the name of the

game is to identify land on which housing might be built

in the immediate future, is to try to identify those that

have a reasonable chance of being relinquished or built

on in the immediate future.

MR. MOORE: Let's talk

about 16. .

MR. DANZIG: That's vacant.

80

acreage?

MR. WHEELER:

MR. WILLIAMS:

What is the

.60.

6/iD's

of an acre.

MR.. DAVIDSON: I . take it

this whole stretch could be one of those-replanned for

mixed use?.

MR. M,NZIG: Yes.

MR. WHEELER: On 23, Mr.

Danzig, what is the current status of that tract?

MR. DANZIG: Part of it is

clear. I am negotiating now with the Urban League, and

I'd like to point out I have a right to do this, for

possibility of housing for lout income families.

your negotiations gone?

meetings.

a contractual relationship?

MR. DAVIDSON: How far have

MR. DANZIG: Two or three

MR. WHEELER: There isn't

MR. DANZIG: No, sir. You

don't suppose now that the Urban League is not one of

81

these community organizations that is going to recognized

in this man's town?

MR. WILLIAMS: Of course

not.

MR. WHEELER: We are not

talking about community grops at this point.

MR. DANZIG: Well, I would

like to get some definition since there is some question

about my right first to negotiate with an urban league or

whether that's one of the groups that you folks are going

to approve of.

• MR. WHEELER: We aren't in

the business of approving of groups.. We are talking about

the availability of land.

REV. SHARPER: Mr. Danzig,

our concern is that you could conveniently arrange to

negotiate with various groups as play hopscotch with other

groups and leap frog.- We have made inquiries about things

and you had a blank page to'offer us. I'm talking about

the housing and that sort of thing. And yet you have done

this.

MR. DANZIG: Of course I

82

have a right to do this.

REV. SHARPER: But you have

a right to deny some and accept some, right?

MR. DANZIG: When I haven't

got enough to go around for everybody.

REV. SHARPER: We want some

of this divided back to some of those you have denied.

MR,. DANZIG: I haven't denied

anybody.

REV. SHARPER: Yes, you have.

MR. DANZIG: I'm talking

about another era when we needed help from outside people

because we didn't have the situation that we have now.

Now we are talking about the present situation. I'd like

to ask you right now, you know, this is negotiations, so

I'd like to ask you right now to approve or disapprove of

the Urban League --

REV. SHARPER: We don't have

to do that, we may have our reservations, but we arenot

going to make them now.

MR. DANZIG: I'm going to

continue to deal . with them as a community based organization.

83

MR. WILLIAMS: What are your

rights as negotiator for land pursuant to an option held

by Jack Parker?

HR. DANZIG: My right is that

as I have called him in previously and let him know that

we are going to build a swimming pool, and he's got to

relinquish the land, he did so. When I pointed out years

ago that there became a need in every city across the land

to deal with community based organizations and labor unions

and the like, I induced him to relinquish for the brick

layers, I induced him to relinquish for the citizens group.

MR. WHEELER: Can we now

address ourselves to Parcel 21C?

MR. LOFTON: Before you get

to that, I understand the terms of the fact of the mechan-

ism that we are talking about in terms of setting up a

mechanism to determine what community groups would be in-

volved in the planning of houses and the mixed commercial

use and so forth for available land space. I assume that

some kind of mechanism will be set up either a community

based umbrella group or something of that nature. Now,

that brings me to Mr. Danzig's statement that what he in-

84

tends to do in the interim, even while those kinds of plans

are being developed, is . to continue to negotiate and to

deal and to make all kinds of agreements with all kinds of

diverse groups, including among which is the Urban League.

What I'm talking about. is it

seems that those negotiations ought to come to a halt until

sometime that a mechanism that we are talking about is

established. It seems logical to me.

HR. DANZIG: I have a duty

and an obligation under the law and I am obliged to put it

on the table. I must deal with groups, and I'm willing to

have done so with community groups that give under our

regulations evidence of financial responsibility, evidence

of continuity, and there are other things. that need to be

{done in accordance with the rules and regulations which I

suggest.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I can't

agree with your statutory and moral responsibility, but

it seems to me that the whole thrust of these meetings is

that we are moving into a somewhat new kind of ballgame in

which that responsibility that you had will be exercised,

as Mr. Lofton suggests, under an umbrella which permits,

85

consultation with broad based community groups.

MR. DANZIG: I have been

advised that I cannot abdicate my legal responsibility.

I am willing to have an umbrella.

MR. WHEELER: No one is sug-

gesting that. I would like to move on.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Well,

I would submit that under the circumstances, 1 think Mr.

Lofton may disagree with this, it seems to me that we

can't address a situation until we get our broad based

umbrella group. I don't think it is very difficult or

time consuming to set that up.

MR. WHEELER: If you look

at it realistically, if we don't, there wouldn't be any

land.

MR. DAYNZIG: I declare you

now an umbrella, make a declaration about the Y.M.C.A.

and the Urban League.

MR. LOFTON: It is very ob-

vious that the discretion that Mr. Danzig related to Rev.

Sharper, it is quite obvious that in terms of dealing with

some groups and not with others, and at the same time the

86

time table of when he deals with these groups is within

his discretion. So, consequently there will be nothing

in terms of compliance with the regulations for him hold-

ing in abeyance the negotiations with those groups, just

the good faith of Mr. Danzig to participate in the very

things that are participated in all around this table.

MR. MOORE: What he's saying

now, he would still intend to negotiation, we would like

him in the spirit of the whole negotiation - to hold at some

point the negotiations.

MR. DANZIG: Which ones?

MR. MOORE: All of them.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I would

say that it may very well be that the umbrella group would

say that they prefer to have housing rather than the Y.M.C.A.

I'think what the community group is suggesting --

MR. DANZIG: Well, I suggest

that we kill urban renewal and go back to the real estate

lobby, which would like to have a referendum on every

single item. This is where we are getting back to, and

to the arch enemy whom we battled alone without these good

people, and we need them to do more battle.

87

A.SPEAKER: Will the umbrella

group include groups like the Y.M.C.A. and the Urban Lea-

gue?

MR. WILLIAMS: We will talk

about that.

MR. DANZIG: That's another

responsibility of mine too. You have agreed here to a

format that the widest kind of community group be assembled

for the umbrella, and so this is not the group. This is

part of the group. The U.G.C. is part of the group, and

some church groups and other groups.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I don't

think Mr. Wheeler suggested that the umbrella group will

not be more broadly represented than this group here.

MR. LOFTON: Mr. Danzig in-

dicated that we may be getting back to the old kind of

virus situation of the real estate lobby. What I am talk-

ing about is not something of that nature, plus the fact

that I recognize the bad situation that this would create.

What I'm talking about is an umbrella group that would

identify priorities. I am not talking about to whom the

final commitment would go, but it may very well be that

88

the community will decide in terms of this umbrella group

that the Y.M.C.A. doesn't come under this priority group,

but Mr. Danzig may.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I under-

stand, Mr. Lofton, and I think, perhaps, it is not fruitful

to try to discuss at this table the process by which the

umbrella or the makeup of the umbrella group, that is

something I think we need.

MR. MOORE: What we do want

is an opportunity to make it work.

MR. DANZIG: When is this

brother group going to be established so we can get on

with it?

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I think

if we don't get the umbrella group established within a

very short time --

MR. DANZIG: Like what?

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Within

the next couple of days.

MR. WILLIAMS: Now wait.

MR. WHEELER: First of all,

number one, we are not going to be rushed into the matter.

89

The community will determine the number of days that it

will take from the community's point of view. But the

paint of the matter --

MR. DANZIG: No you will

not. Like in this case, say that you want three years,

and I have to sit on the land?

MR. WHEELER: What we are

asking for is a cessation of negotiations and commitment

by Mr. Danzig for a reasonable length of time, and certainly

it will be more than two days or a week to establish this

broad base umbrella group which would include the Urban

League. No one is suggesting that the advice of'the Urban

League be denied or excluded. However, this broad based

group would determine the destinies of rebuilding Newark,

rather than to operate on an individual negotiation basis

of Mr. Danzig in Group A, Group B, Group C or Group D,

because this is what I understand that we all believe in

when we begin to talk about harmony for Newark, and when

we began to talk about making Newark a better place.

What I'd like to do is now

ask Mr. Danzig about 21C.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Before

90

we go to that point, if we can, Mr. Wheeler -- Mr. Danzig,

assuming a reasonable time, two days is unreasonable --

MR. DANZIG: That's committed,

Harry.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Before

we get to 21C, do you agree that's desirable, and it seams

to me that this is right within the model cities concept,

to defer any final commitment on any --

MR. DANZIG: This is not

within the model city project area. .I am willing those

rules should apply.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: The model

city concept?

MR. DANZIG: Yes.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: In other

words, you would be willing to come in here pursuant to

Mr. Wheeler's suggestion that we defer any final commit-

ment on any tract in R-6 until the umbrella group, assum-

ing the umbrella group gets established in a reasonable

length .of time?

MR. DANZIG: I would like

to know a little more. You know, it is very nice to be

91

under siege when all the questions are being fired at you,

and I'd like to be in the seat and ask a few simple ques-

tions myself.

(1), I want to know who this

umbrella group is, how wide its participation is, the

names of the organizations and individuals, if such there

are. Who are going to be this wide-based, broad-based

community participation umbrella group?

I want to know in point of

time how soon that can be accomplished? Because you said

two days, I said you don't do it in sixty days, and Harry

Wheeler immediately said we will determine the time. Well,

I'm here to say if it's three years, he won't determine

the time.

MR. WILLIAMS: I'm getting

a little upset now because Mr. Danzig talks about respon-

sibility, and if he thinks this is his responsibility, I

think he's a little bit over extended.. I get tired of

people saying that we of the community must do such and '

such a thing. It has been a history of some lone person

sitting behind an agency desk, dealing and wheeling with

the land as he so saw fit without any kind of umbrella

92

group whatsoever. If we hadn't been at this meeting, we

would never have known that the Urban League was going to

fall heir to some of this land in this area. I think it

is up to us in the community•to decide who is the umbrella

group, who it is going to be composed of, and a reasonable

time to cue up with them. We will have to decide who is

most representative in terms of the various things that

we of the community must consider. I think we should have

a right to define those things, define those people.

should not be forced in a position on. the spur of the

minute of committing ourselves to a day to day agenda when

the history shows it's to the advantage of the other side.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Mr.

Williams, I assure you, at least speaking for myself, and

I think also for Mr. Danzig, that no one is trying to

force you as an individual or the people you represent into

a precipitous discussion on the umbrella group. I think

we are all agreed on principle. I think the only thing

Mr. Danzig is saying, and that I believe and I think you

tnu1d agree to, because, afterall, the name of your game

is to provide housing in the fastest

MR. WHEELER: There is lever-

93

age for us to move with dispatch and there is no parson

here that knows this better than Mr. Danzig, and when he

begins to talk about three years, he is simply being ludi-

crous. The point of the matter is that in terms of what

I am talking about is that it will be a reasonable time

and that the community will do it, and if Mr. Danzig still

feels he is a part of the community, he may join with us.

But the point of the matter is at this stage of the game

it is going to be a broad-based community non-profit or-

ganization that is going to determine the destinies of

rebuilding . our city.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: You have

just described U.C.C..

MR. WHEELER: That's part of

it, that is not all of it, but part of it.

MR. DANZIG: For the record

I would like to set the record straight that these deci-

sions aren't strictly and solely within my domain. That

before anything can be done by the Housing Authorities

and by me, the executive director, I have to get Board

approval, I have to get government money, I have to get

government approval. The government has to approve the

94

prices paid, the price is secure, the developers.' There is

a whole format for this. So that I am an agent, that's as

to the government and the Housing Authority. Everything

we do has to be approved by the Planning Board or the City

Council, various departments of city and federal government.

And now, sir, I say that we cannot do anything with all

local government and with all federal government, despite

an umbrella group without the state being a party to all

our activities. We are not alone, you are not talking to

Lou Danzig.

MR. ISENDEU..: My name is

Dan hendell and I'm one of these suburbans who have nothing

and who have failed in our responsibility to be concerned

with the central city. I find myself in a peculiar posi-

tion of feeling a great deal of sympathy with Mr. Danzig

on the one hand and with Mr. Wheeler and Mr. Williams on

the other. I would like very much an umbrella organization

set up of this sort, and it would be wonderful' if Mr.

Danzig would sit in an this. But I don't think we should

have to take an extended period of time to establish such

an organization. I don't see any reason why some organi-

zation committee cannot be set here where the rules and

- 95

the guidelines for the establishment of such an umbrella

organization will be established by them, and that we

move immediately to establish such a group that would be

representative of the total and entire community.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: If I

may make a suggestion on that score, Mr. Williams and

Mr. Wheeler, I would say that the most desirable thing

would be for the negotiating team to go back to the com-

munity and make its contacts as broadly as possible and

set up either by organization or individual, this umbrella

group, and bring it back so it too can be part of our

discussions and we can have acquiescence, if you will, on

the part of all concerned here, the city government, the

state and the federal.

MR. WHEELER: I can simply

say to you that these are the things that we will give

primary consideration to and I would like to assure Mr.

Kendell that the term "reasonable" expresses the fact that

we recognize the need for dispatch and we stand on reason-

able time, particularly when you consider the facts that

we are the primary movers for housing in this whole problem.

MR. WILLIAMS: There is another

96

consideration here, and Mr. Danzig's last spiel, he talked

about the involvement and the standard used by the Federal

government and the involvement of the state and the in-

volvement of the local government by implication. But you

see, this whole kind of discussion has missed the,emphasis

that we are also interested in besides housing, and that

is participation.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I am

very, very sympathetic to that.

MR. WILLIAMS: Let me finish,

because there is another problem that we must discuss here

also, and that is the matter of model cities. I suppose

we should rush out within two days and rectify all that

has been wrong with the model cities-task force. I don't

think that is possible, given the way things are set up.

I don't think it is also possible for us to go out and

come up with some kind of umbrella organization right away.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I under-

stand that perfectly.

MR. WHEELER: Well, we will

diligently address ourselves to this matter and within a

reasonable time be prepared to comply with what you've

97

suggested.

MR. DANZIG: Hr. Chairman,

for the record may I suggest that you keep one of those

maps?

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I think

we ought to have a break fairly soon.

May I make one point clear

here or ask a question? Do I assume that if we reach, which

I think we have here, substantial agreement on the principle

of an umbrella group with respect to R-6 as well as the

model cities area, to guide the use of the land, that we

need not necessarily -- that that substantial agreement on

that in principle will permit us to move ahead with re-

spect to, insofar as that has a relationship to the seven

points in the Federal Letter?

MR. WHEELER: Chancellor,

if you are suggesting that this means that the model city

matter is cleared. up, then I would say no.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I am not

suggesting that.

MR. DAVIDSON: I don't think

that that allows us to leave this subject just as our

98

general agreement on Fairmount allows us to leave that

subject. We still have to discuss in some detail the

mechanism for implementing that, and I think that agreement

on that is part of what we mean by substantial agreement.

To save time in the process,

while the community is resolving the problem of the umbrella

organization, I think if Mr. Danzig undertook to obtain

releases from Jack Parker, at that time, if he returned

within his organization and did his job while the community

was doing its job, by the time the umbrella organization

has been defined, you can see how much land . it is actually

able to deal with. If we wait, that will only delay the

process.

MR. MOORE: In this same area

I'd like to find out how much land other than the Fairmount

or R-6 tract any place in the city that is under option to

anybody and how much of this optioned land is cleared..

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Gentlemen,

I'd like to hold that, if we can, until after our break.

First let's hear from these

two gentlemen.

A SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman, I'd

99

for it to be known to the representative group here that

we have a legal non-profit group that is ready to enter

in with an umbrella group of this nature to the model

cities and in the conversation that's been going on here

now. And that is Project START legalized by the State.

MR. WHEELER: Would you

leave your name with me and the address gnd telephone number?

A SPEAKER: I would also

like at this time two things, first to suggest that there

are people who live in other parts of the community than

this, and I'm talking about the South Ward and the East

Ward, who may be moving into this housing and getting jobs

in this area, I hope, and doing other things, who have an

interest, and I want to be sure, therefore, that whatever

umbrella group is created, is broad enough to reach through-

out this city and not only limited in geography, and that

there also be placed by this group a time limit, or other-

wise we go out of here with great uncertainty as to

whether we are coming back on this umbrella group, and I

don't think that we can have an unlimited kind of time.

Now, the second thing I want

to ask is this, and that is I would be mindful that the

100

mind can only absorb what the seat of the pants endured.

And I would like to file a written letter in support of

the New Jersey College wearing the hat of the vice president

of the Rutgers State University with the conditions stated

in the letter of the Wood Housing Development. This state-

ment being entered on behalf of the university. It con-

tains very simple points saying that we are in support of

the medical school being here, why we are, the jobs and

the co-operation that can come out of it.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Thank you.

Ladies and gentlemen, we will now take a break for lunch.

It is now 12:30, please return at 1:30.

(At which time the hearing

adjourned for one hour.)

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Okay,

ladies and gentlemen, shall we get going?

I think before we broke Mr.

Moore had a question, which I assume he directed at Mr.

Danzig, and that is, "Are there any sites outside of the

yardsticks or the Fairmount tract which might possibly go

into our inventory of potential sites for housing?"

MR. MOORE: Specifically the

101

question was, "Was there any land any place else in Newark

that was under option, and, if so, what was the total

amount of that land?"

And, number two, "How much

of that land was cleared?"

MR. DANZIG: Well, there is

a site down here by the railroad.

Are we talking land fit far

housing use?

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Yes, we

are.

MR. DANZIG: Well, then I

have to say that all the use is in the downtown area, the

meadow lands for industrial purposes. We had that in

housing reuse and it is now being pledged to the community

college, 20 acres. And outside of that, nothing.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN:

I think

what Mr. Danzig is saying in summary is that all of the

land that is available, cleared or otherwise, is industrial

or commercial except for the 23 acres of the community

college.

MR. DANZIG: And that was

programmed for housing, but when the need arose we pledged

that land to the community college, and that leaves NJR.38

for town houses, which is pledged now to the Home Builders

Association, a couple of hundred units of town houses.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Is that

MR.-MOORE: NJR 38?

MR. DANZIG: NJR 38.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: How many

MR. DANZIG: It will take

MR. WHEELER: In acreage

MR. DANZIG: I don't know.

MR. MOORE: Well, that's a

This is cleared, no. construc-

MR. DANZIG: No construction,

103

and that's under contract.

whom?

home builders group.

contract?

MR. WHEELER: Contract to

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: The

MR. MOORE: Is:that an option

MR. DANZIG: That's a con-

tract, let's not talk about options. We don't give options,

we have contracts.

MR. MOORE: As the layman's

term, is it the same type of contract that Parker has?

MR. DANZIG: Well, substan-

tially.

MR. MOORE: Thank you.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Do you

have any idea when that is supposed to be under construc-

Lion?

MR. DANZIG: Well, we've

had a discussion with him, he says he can get a shovel in

the ground within three weeks after his financing is

arranged, and he is dealing with the State of New Jersey

104

now.

A SPEAKER: What is the

boundaries of this project that you are speaking about now?

MR. DANZIG: I think I left

that this group has a map of all our project areas. I

don't have a map with me, but generally it is up in Clinton

. Hill, in the Clinton Hill area and it runs along Berger

Street, Chadwick Street, in that area.

A SPEAKER: What is the

project on Avon Avenue?

MR. DANZIG: That's it. We

just disposed of.it on the big map.

MR. WILLIAMS: You say NJR 38,

it seems to me that was held up because of the priority

given to the medical school.

REV. SHARPER: .What about

along Watson Avenue?

MR. DANZIG: That's highway,

that's not us.

MR. WILLIAMS: Weren't you

told by the Department of HUD people that you had to

curtail some urban development areas?

105

MR. DANZIG: No, I wasn't

told to curtail anything.

MR. WILLIAMS: They did hold

up money on you in terms of NOR 38?

MR. DANZIG: No, they did

not. That's the second stage, but we are talking about

vacant land now and. the question is, is there vacant land

.that's under contract on which there has been no construc-

tion, and I am now reporting what there is that is vacant

and not under construction, and that is NJR 38, known as

the Clinton Hill Project in which there is now being built

some 200 units of 221 DC3 with rent supplements for the

Mt. Calvary Baptist Church.

And there is another section,

a lot of pieces that we cleared that is supposed to take

down houses which is what I'm referring to.

MR. WILLIAMS: Is that land

also in the execution stage?

MR. DANZIG: Execution to

us means acquisition, relocation, the land is cleared and

we have a developer and I told you who it was, and he

said he can build three weeks after his financing is con-

106

eluded, and he's in the F.H.A..

MR. MOORE: One further

question. You mentioned the land designated for commer-

cial industry. Who holds options on this, and is this

land cleared?

MR. DANZIG: This land is

cleared in front of the Pennsylvania Railroad to the ex-

tent that it is cleared for commercial office use.

MR. MOORE:. Is that the only

parcel you have?

MR. DANZIG: We have it

downtown. What about it, Duke, come on, you know, we talk

about failure of communication, we talk about attitudes.

Now, every time - I give an answer you laugh. I don't want

to get personal, Duke, but what about it now? If you

think that it shouldn't be for commercial use, you say so.

MR. MOORE:. Well, I'm not

too sure it should be. I don't know what is to go on its

MR. DANZIG: I can tell you

that there won't be any houses on it.

MR. MOORE: I wanted to know

whether it was.

Li

107

MR. DANZIG: Well, you folks

have a map.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: May I

make a suggestion? It seems to me that we probably reached

the end of the utility of going through trying to identify

parcels here in the public meetings. I do think it is

necessary on the other hand for us to have a consolidated

list on which we all agree that here are parcels that are

either cleared or under option or contract that might be

freed up for construction of housing by non-profit community

groups, and I'd like to suggest that Mr. Beckett of the

regional office of HUD, representative of the negotiating

group go down to Mr. Danzig's office, sometime, I hope,

on Monday and see if we can develop an agreed list of --

I think you have a fairly comprehensive one now, but I

think you would:want to check that.

MR. DANZIG: Mr. Chairman,

there was a meeting with Mr. Ylvisacker and his whole group

and why I should sit here and answer all these questions

when they, indeed, have all these maps, which is what I

complained about the other night about unilateral meetings.

That all of us ought to know and talk about the same thing

108

at once.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: What I'd

like to suggest is that we have a representative of the

negotiating group.

MR. DANZIG: And I'd like to

put on the table that the Urban League was-sent to me by

the Community Affairs Department. I'm getting a little

sick and tired of .sitting here by my lonesome.

REV. SHARPER: There is one

other very important area that I want to inquire about, and

that is the area between South Orange and 15 th Avenue.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: South

Orange and 15th Avenue, sir, we do not have a project.

MR. DAVIDSON: Chancellor,

if the Community Affairs Department has already analyzed

this, you've done some analysis --

MR. DANZIG: It is put on

that original agenda that they came out with Monday night.

MR. STERNS: I think he's

talking about the paper that we had here.

MR. DANZIG: It wasn't this

kind of an analysis.

109

A SPEAKER: What we have is

the tenative commitment, the one that you've just gotten

on the maps, and the state in analysis of what cleared land

there is. in R-6 and the Fairmount tract. But all the in-

formation that was gathered at that meeting with Mr. Danzig

is basically the information that's on these maps now. In

terms of commitments, options, it is information again that

he's given here today, we have no further information be-

yond that.

MR. DAVIDSON: Then a meeting

is necessary of the smaller group_just going through this

parcel by parcel and putting facts down on paper.

MR. DANZIG: Look, I brought

facts here and the facts are that map. And I'm trying

now, and I think this is the appropriate time, Mr. Davidson,

to say a little something about time, and if we are going

to prolong these meetings and get on into next summer and

lose the medical school, if that's what the objective is,

I don't know when we are going to resolve these things.

MR. DAVIDSON: The purpose

of the kind of meeting suggested is to save time.

MR. DANZIG: Each time I come

110

to a meeting new information is sought. I'm giving you

that which I was asked to give you, and I brought maps

along for that purpose. I wasn't asked if there is any

other site, so I have to draw on my memory. Then I'm

asked about between South Orange Avenue and 15th Avenue,

and we have no project there. Then we talk about other

projects. I was asked to come here to define the vacant

land that was under option or not under option in the Fair-

mount Project and in R-6. Now we are going further and I'm

answering that to the best of my ability. Now, we've talked

about R-38, we've talked about the meadow lands, about

downtown here, with snickers and side remarks, and I think .

we ought to get down to cases as to where are we going.

We still haven't touched the balance of the seven points

in the Woods-Cohen Letter. Now, this went off the paint

and I brought maps with all the information, acres, what

is vacant, what the uses are, everything else. We have

declared that the Fairmount Project is open, not under

option or pledge or contract. R-6 is. I told you all

about it. Now we go further. Let's get into other fields

of endeavor like accounting pnd a few other things.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I think,

111

Mr. Danzig, you have been very open about identifying the

parcels and what stage they are in on the tracts that we

were primarily concerned with. I do think that there is

the further question if we are to maximize our knowledge

about the availability of possible land for houses- since

the relationship to the medical school that is quite natural.

But if there is no other land outside of these two tracts

that might be available to houses, then there is no issue.

MR. DANZIG: But there is a

challenge being made that it is or isn't available for

housing.

MR. LOFTON: I think Mr.

Moore's question is related to the vacant land designated

for commercial use. And the second part of his question

was whether or not there are options held on the cleared

land that is now designated for commercial use and who

holds them, My question is whether or not some of the

same persons who hold options on the land that is cleared

for housing, also hold options on the land that is cleared

for commercial use. Because if that is the case, it seems

to me that there is a greater leverage to be able to con-

vince the people who hold the option on the commercial

112

land. It seems to me that it is relevant. I would like

to know whether or not the same developer who holds the

options, Mr. Parker, incidentally, on all of the vacant

land and otherwise, in R-6 also, holds the options on

terms'of the cleared commercial land that you spoke about

downtown.

MR.[ANZIG: I would just

like to ask a simple question, since I'm the one who is

being questioned. Where do you folks all live? How long

have you lived here? Do you read the newspapers at all?

All this has been matters of

public press, and Mr. Wheeler sits here, he knows the ans-

wers, I know he knows the answers, and everybody remains

silent. The Food Fair has the option on the downtown area.

The other area, there is an industrial along the river and

the catholic church has the other piece on the other side

of Raymond's Boulevard committed for diagnostic use. There

are other purposes.

And Mr. Parker hasn't any of

this downtown land.

MR. LOFTON: That's what I

wanted to know.

113

REV. SHARPER: We'd like to

have some of it.

MR. DANZIG: For commercial?

REV. SHARPER: For anything.

MR. DANZIG: I don't under-

stand that, "We'd like to have it," who is-"we"?

REV. SHARPER: Negroes, you

know, we live here too, and we think we have a right to

come and to ask this. It's too bad that we annoy you, be-

cause we have many more questions to ask. Perhaps we've

been brought into confidence,but these hearings have been

proceeded properly earlier. It stands to reason that we

wouldn't be here today, but it didn't happen that way,

perhaps we were derelict, but give us a little credit for

getting up and waking up now and wanting to get in the

game. So we.want you to-lhave patience with us because there

are plenty of things we want to know and ought to know

because many of our people will ask-us, and we are dumb on

the thing because we just don't know.

MR. DANZIG: I just want

you to know that these are matters of public record, you

are entitled to answers to all your questions. I say that

114

we have published all these --

REV. SHARPER: If the news-

paper was the proper source of information, there would be

no need to have a meeting, so that's why we are meeting

because we respect you and you are the Director of Housing,

so we want to - get with the Director and get. all this.

MR. DANZIG: Thank you, sir,

I'm trying to answer all the questions.

A SPEAKER: What has-happened

to the part of the block area that was blighted about 1959

beginning at 17th Avenue and going over as far as Avon

Avenue and from Berger Street down back to the west side

of Belmont?

MR. DANZIG: That's one of

the projects that is held up until we reach conclusions.

A SPEAKER: Why can't we

build on that, because the deterioration in there is unim-

aginable. This land should be developed.

MR. DANZIG: Well, sir, for

example, this is NJR32 in which a citizens group took us

to court for L3 years. The project just came back into

the shop about a -year ago, and then when we were about to

115

get approval for it, all of this began and it's been held

up some more.

A SPEAKER: But reading a

newspaper I saw your picture was in the paper where you

were making grounds over there were some money coming in

from the Federal Government for this project.

MR. DANZIG:. I don't know

which project you mean..

A SPEAKER: The same one I'm

talking about from Avon Avenue to I'M Avenue.

MR. DANZIG: Sir, we have

no money for that in urban renewal. The project is locked

in until all these discussions are resolved.

MR. MOORE: How many acres

are involved?

MR. DANZIG: I don't remember.

It is all on the map there.

MR. WILLIAMS: It seems that

we've reached an impasse. I don't want to go on trying

Mr. Danzig's patience. I don't want to go on trying your

patience, asking, you know, an excessive amount of questions.

So since we are unsatisfied with the amount of acreage that

116

has been produced in that it is just a mere drop in the

bucket given the housing needs of the people in the central

wards and Newark, ' I think at this point the burden of proof

is on you or someone in a similar situation to come up

with some more land. Now, if we can't sit here and intelli-

gently ask questions that might lead to a kind of disclosure

of the land that is available, and you seem to balk at some

us coming down and looking through the records that

might be pertinent to this particular situation, I don't

see that we've achieved anything by coming to this meeting

if this is going to be the end of it, because we obviously

haven't even begun to solve the housing problems of the

people ivolved. I want the record to show that it is not

us who at that point can do nothing about the situation,

because we of the community simply do not have the infor-

mation in order to make an intelligent decision about

Whether this amount of land will be acceptable or whether

this amount of land will not be acceptable. We just don't

have all the input to go back to the community and discuss

this thing further. So I think the burden of proof is

still on you, Mr.Danzig.

MR. DANZIG: As long as the

117

burden of proof is an me, I'd furnish you, sir, Mr. Chairman,

a copy of a document that we furnished to the regional office

showing all our relocation resources and showing all the

units that were going to be built. I furnished that to the

Department of.Community Affairs which form the basis of

your agenda and quickly we run out of land. I've told you

all the land there is, and I don't know that anywhere, even

though I'm a high-rise specialist, I don't know where there

is any high-rise land I can pluck out of the sky and bring

down to this meeting and produce that which isn't produce-

able.

Now, there isn't much point

in pursuing this line of discussion because this group has

our whole map showing every project, its uses, its acreage,

they have it and there is no point playing possum or ostrich

at this point for the purpose of prolonging an agonizing

meeting. And not because I'm here an the griddle facing

a group of people in an unfair position, but because of

the passage of time, and I thought that we were sitting

here realistically trying in good faith and confidence to

get down to the nitty problems that oppressed the people

for so many years so that we could indeed get to an area

118

of compromise so we could indeed get to the next subject,

and in point of time the next public hearing on the 46

acres, so that we can indeed begin to button up the medical

school.

And so, again, I call your

attention to the fact that while I was very responsive to

all the questions that were not germain and were not on

this agenda today because you, sir, and they and we, all

of us agree, we go dawn the Woods-Cohen Letter, and I was

asked at the last meeting to come prepared with land under

option to use the expression, in Fairmount, and RS-6, and,

look how far afield we've wandered, and someone will say

to me shortly, "Why can't we build town houses in the

meadow lands, that's vacant?"

REV. SHARPER: I did want

to suggest that.

MR. DANZIG: I have a func-

tion. to call another hearing on the reuse plan for the

46 acres, which everybody knows what the reuse will be,

it will be the medical and dental school of the State of

New Jersey.. And I'm under instructions as an agent of the

government not to call such a meeting until matters that

119

are being discussed here are substantially resolved. Now,

if we are ever going to resolve them, we've got to have a

straight laced agenda, stick to it, lay anything on the

table, and continue the negotiations until we reach substan-

tial accord. I think that there has been a magni•ficant

effort put forward an everybodys part, and let's pursue it

to its logical and ultimate conclusion and I'll be very

happy to pledge to this or any other group under the public

disclosure laws of the State of New Jersey, that if you

want any material in my shop, Mr. Lofton has already com-

mitted himself to get in touch with our lawyer, Mr. Kelly,

to get such material as. he wants, anybody else in this

room or this city or anywhere else may have such material

as we have. Just don't come in suddenly, give us a chance

to Xerox it.

A SPEAKER: I'm very grate-

ful to what Mr. Danzig said, and I hope that everyone who

has questions in this area will take advantage of it.

I think too, perhaps, we

should take a recess and permit the Chair to straight lace

our agenda to the end that we will here and now set this

stage so that when the next public hearing is on the 46.5

120

acres we in this room will be in agreement on what our po-

sition is. I think in general, even now we are in agree-

ment, but I think that it should be formalized and finalized.

Spring is coming and we've got to dig holes in the ground

for foundations. If the conditions of the public, the in-

terested public is that housing starts at the same moment,

I would suggest that those parties, or a small committee

of those parties be established to co-ordinate the timing

so the housing and the hospital construction can start at

the same time. I think that argument and quibbling on

peripheral issues not pertinent to that should not enter

into this part of the agenda.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I agree

and I think we plan to- have another meeting on Monday

night. By Monday night we will have in hand an agreed

document which identifies all land that might be useable

for housing and where we could start those houses.

A SPEAKER: I am willing,

and I think a number of other people here are willing to

enter into a discussion, an agreement arrangement or a

hearing that will last 24, 38 or 48 hours until it is

completed, starting after the five minute adjournment to

121

establish the agenda today.

A SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman,

he is a man from East Orange. These problems concern the

people of Newark.

A SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman,

I'm from Newark and I will say everything he said, and it

seems to me if we don't take some kind of action of this

kind, a kind of continuous activity, what we are going to

do is move closer and closer to a time of crisis when

either Jersey City with its Legislative Investigation

Committee to get the school there or in Madison, are going

to come after us.

One other thing, I've said

before what my position is on having this medical school

here and the conditions I want complied with. But I know

if I sit around here and the negotiating committee does,

and we lose that medical school, the people who are behind

the negotiation is committed, and me and those conditions

are going to. turn on us, and don't you ever forget that.

If we lose jobs and things that are so important here,

now we give it everything we can just like people do, by

the way, in labor negotiations, because we are not getting

122

anything productive out of this unless we continue these

negotiations steadily, right along the way, and I don't

mean one week from today, I mean tomorrow, which is Sunday,

if necessary, which we do, by the way, under .hbar negotia-

tions to get things settled, and it is about time we all

stared working that way.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Right.

MR. WRIGHT: The remarks

just made by Mr. Tindall, I asked him to make those remarks,

and I whole heartedly endorse and concur with the statement

that was made by him.

Second to that, let us not

accuse an individual where he lives, we are talking about

a total black community and what revolves around a commu-

nity. It is my opinion that Mr: Tindall has as much right

to speak as anyone else.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: It

affects the lives of many black people in that area.

May I suggest then, we do

plan to have another meeting on Monday night. I think,

perhaps, it wouldn't be bad to have a day of rest,

MR. DANZIG: I guess I'm

- 123

working about as hard here as anybody else, and I'm ready

to sit here all day and night, tomorrow, I will cancel

everything on Monday if we can indeed get resolution, but

if we are going to fly up to Mars and back again, we are

going to get. no where, all our efforts are going to be in

vain.

MR. KENNEDY: I would like

to basically clarify -- what are the real substantial rea-

sons for what you might refer to as the continuance of the

type of piecemeal. negotiations that are being spread over

a period of time? What are the real substantial reasons

that you set?

CHANCELLOR DUNAN: Are you

talking about piecemeal?

MR. KENNEDY: Not going

into dead end type of negotiations and reaching a conclu-

sion one way or the other?

CHANCELLOR DUNCAN: What we

started the other night was the process of trying to iden-

tify land that was cleared or in the process of being

cleared as a means of solving the relocation problem which

would be caused by the conveyance of the 42 acres. We

l24

are still in the process here today of trying to identify

those acres, I.think in a not very efficient way. And

what I propose to do now is separate that discussion from

this discussion and proceed then as Mr. Danzig has suggested,

to the resolution of the remaining seven points in the

Federal Letter.

MR. STERNS: Can we came back

on Monday, I think we've exhausted this issue.

MR..DANZIC: Let's proceed.

further with the meeting and find out what we are going

to come back for.

MR. STERNS: I'm asking to

come back Monday with all of the paints and issues that

haven't been resolved. I think we can go on with the

seven points today and narrow it down to the paint where

we have three or four or ' five hard things Monday night

that are clearly on the table, and we can separate those

elements.

MR. KENNEDY: Maybe I'm

getting a little too technical. I'm trying to make a

contribution. Is it a general assumption based upon the

piecemeal type of inquiries that have been made that in

125

the totality of the land available in Newark there isn't

enough for ajustment towards the purposes of housing?

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I would

say that that --

MR. KENNEDY: Excluding

the houses and medical school? If there is a general

assumption that there is in the totality enough land re-

quirement to meet this type of thing, that's' my opinion

for the sake of streamlining this thing, we should exclude

it and get into the specifics and talk about the medical

school with the general assumption that there is enough

for those needs. The question I heard earlier when I came

in, they went as far as the Penn Station. In the same

breath you are talking about housing, then I think you

have to do an all encompassing job in those factors and

proceed on this basis. I think Mr. Danzig and the gentle-

men that have been negotiating probably would be in another

position to make that kind of determination.

As a citizen

and taxpayer of Newark, it appears to me that we are

getting in an area where we are going to make decisions

or delay decisions until we reach a critical point, then

we are going to find ourselves either behind a position

126

we don't want to be, and I think we ought to make a determ-

ination on that right now.

MR. WILLIAMS: I'd like to

comment on that, because I detect an attempt to speed

things up, and I'd like to have our position clear.

Were you here this morning,

sir, in the morning session?

MR. KENNEDY: Well, I don't

want to get personal, but if I had been here this morning,

I think I would have retained basically what had been

said.

MR. WILLIAMS: I'm. not trying

to put you= down. What we did this morning was to go over

the land that was available. According to Mr.\Danzig's

maps and his commentary, there is no land available. Now,

either we can accept that, and from that we would have to

draw certain conclusions, number one, we should go on with

urban renewal and let the people. be thrown into the wind.

Number two, we can choose to disbelieve that there is no

land available and we can go from there.

Now, if we take that second

assumption that we will have to continue to press Mr. Danzig

127

for the type of information that we need because we do,

in.fact, believe that there is land available, we believe

that it is now presently tied up under contracts and in-

formal agreements, what have you, whatever the matter,

whatever the reason, we feel we do not know enought right

now to say this housing program will be sufficient, this

one will be sufficient over here, the only conclusion we

can reach right nuw is that there is not enough room for

housing in this particular situation and, perhaps, urban

renewal ought to be curtailed because of that. I don't

want to reach that conclusion. All I'm saying is speed,

haste, everything else can come about if Danzig would give

us some idea of the land to be released for housing. We

do not have enough input data. I admire Mr. Danzig's

stamina, I would be willing to stay here too if I thought

that this kind of discussion would be fruitful- We haven't

got more than 24 acres. In the 46 acres alone there would

be 2,000'units torn down.

MR. DANZIG: That is not

the fact, and the whole story he told is not so. He began

by saying that Mr. Danzig hasn't come up with land, and

I came up with the balance of the Fairmount project which

128

we agreed about, and there are only less than a thousand

families in the 46 acres, there is only a thousand families.

Listen, we are talking now about the facts. There are a

thousand, less than a thousand families in the 46 acre

tract.

MR. WILLIAMS: I said units.

MR. DANZIG: He starts by

saying there was no land made available. I thought by the

time we adjourned for lunch we had disposed of Fairmount

and R-6, that in Fairmount everything left was made availa-

ble for community enterprise. I can't make highrise land

available. I said that and I pledged that I would do what

I could to release some of the land in R-6. And he says

he doesn't have enough information. And then .we went off

into the meadow lands and downtown and we went on an excur-

sion, which I think is the nub of the discussion from the

back of the room. Now, I think unless we get to terms time

is going to wear out on us and we will be in a critical

. position. We are already in a crisis position. It is

impossible for my authority to call a hearing on the 46

acres in less than three to four weeks. And that's the

time that I know I can't, stop. Now, unless we conclude

129

and you set the tone, Mr. Chancellor, when you said that

we'd have a series of several meetings to see if we couldn't

get this whole show on the road to some point of substantial

and reasonable understanding for community involvement, and

I think we made tremendous headway last meeting, and this

meeting and up until now, and I'm sorry to have to say to.

you, sir, that this meeting has taken an unconscionable

turn, and we are beginning to get off the agenda, we haven't

begun to touch the seven points.

You personally asked me to

come here and discuss today, and to me I'm glad to be here

to answer the questions, I've brought maps in anticipation

on the two subjects I was asked to be prepared on and not

go off in left field. And take up mass transit, we have

a lousy housing condition in this town. It is no better

and no worse than any old city. We are never going to

have all the good housing we'd like. We've been tilling in

this vineyard for thirty years, and in thirty years we've

hardly gotten one third of the job done, and more subs tandards

have accumulated in the meantime. At this rate it will

take another sixty years.

Are we supposed to make a

130

blueprint for the sixty years when that is dependent on

federal and state aid? We have no right and no authority

to anticipate what the Legislature and the Congress will

do. This is the land we have, the land we have to work

with. And I don't want to make light of the fact that you

read on the agenda list of Tuesday night some three thousand

units, sir, that are either under construction or for

which money has been committed by the. state and the federal

government.

MR. WILLIAMS: Chancellor,

I am not going to argue with Mr. Danzig, I'm trying to

straighten this out from the point of view for the people

out here that may misunderstand. I say that we are trying

to get some idea of the space available. And we can't

make that understanding because Mr. Danzig hasn't been

candid with us.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Wait a

minute, I don't really think, Mr. Williams, that that

last statement is entirely accurate. I think we did go

through the exercise this morning of identifying 24 acres

or so in the Fairmount tract and attempted to identify

some acreage in R-6.

131

MR. WILLIAMS: But we didn't

come up with it, did we? What kind of decision could we

make as intelligent people based on the contingency that

Mr. Danzig may come up with some more land?

MR. DANZIG: We have come up

with 24 acres. Are we now to stop all the negotiations

because I am in no position to come up with another ten or

fifteen acres? And what will be satisfactory?

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I will

propose this, with my colleagues in community affairs by

Monday night we will have a written document which will

show exactly what is available in the way of housing, and

then we can decide whether this is sufficient to take care

of the relocation needs.

MR. mNZIG: I think that now

you are switching the subject from the simple subject which

has been difficult, and we are on the road to resolutions,

happily. There are two subjects involved. One is community

involvement"on the non-profit reconstruction of areas, and

the other is relocation, and the two ought to be separated,

and I'd like to correct for the purpose of the record that

our relocation plan is sufficient without this new housing.

132

that we just talked about to Fairmount.

MR. WHEELER: I object to

that statement, I am sitting here trying to be patient.

This isn't the area that we are discussing, and if you are

going to put that on the record, then I want the record to

show that I object to that statement and the position of

the community is that it just `taint so. And I would hope

that we come back to getting into the seven conditions,

and the first one being model cities.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Shall we

do that? Let's shift into the one left over from Tuesday

night when the representatives of the Federal Government

were not present. They are here this afternoon and I'd

. like to take up the question as has been suggested of the

model cities, which is one of the conditions in the Federal

Letter.

MR. WHEELER: I would suggest

that someone read it.

(a) "The decision of the ultimate site

must satisfy the intent of the

Model Cities Act -- that it be com-

patible with the plans developed for

133

the neighborhood as a whole. Size

of the sites will have to be re-

solved in terms of both of the

essential needs of a high. quality

school and social impact of the

amount of acres removed from resi-

dential use,"

MR. DANZIG: Mr. Chairman,

that was discussed Tuesday night, or whatever night it was

this week, and we were past A, B --

MR. WHEELER: Can I, please?

MR. DANZIG: We were past

this.

MR. WHEELER: Condition C

also revolves around model cities, and I am going to read

Condition C.

"Representatives of the medical school and

the City Demonstration Agency (model cities)

should meet with neighborhood representa-

tives to discuss neighborhood concerns and

to resolve any differences. "

Now, it was decided at the

134

last meeting that since both of these matters pertained

to model cities, that the wise thing to do would be to

discuss both in the presence of the representative from

the Philadelphia Regional HUD office responsible for

model cities. Today we have that representative present,

and, Mr. Chancellor, I move that we, begin or commence to

discuss conditions A and C.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: The floor

is open to discussion A and C.

MR. DAVIDSON: Isn't there

another question that involves model cities?

MR. WHEELER: We talked

specifically about A and C at the last meeting, and we

ought to start with them.

The last one is, "That, in

general, further long-range planning for additional educa-

tional and health care facilities be linked with City

Demonstration Agency planning under the Model Cities p rogram."

MR. DAVIDSON: I was think-

ing something else, which is an important part of the

resolution of the acreage and of the relocation plan, is

the development of the surrounding area. Now, when this

135

subject has been raised, it's been said that relates to

model cities because there is in the model cities neigh-

borhood and plants for redevelopment of the surrounding

area must somehow come out of the Model Cities program.

I am not saying that that is a necessary conclusion, but

it is a possible conclusion of the discussion about model

cities should include some discussion and plans for the

area which has been withdrawn from the medical school,

particularly the 66 acres which have not been included

within any urban renewal project as yet.

MR. DANZIG: May I address

myself to that?

If we are now going to evolve

a plan before we have our public hearing, hopefully in

three or four weeks, we are going to lay this subject on

the table. I would like to refer you., Mr. Davidson, to

the law which compels model cities projects to have the

widest community participation, and that is written into

the law. So that you are now, in effect, suggesting that

we discuss what uses the land'is going to be put to, that .

one was relinquished by the medical school next to the

46 acres, and I tell you no planner will answer that ques-

136

tion unless he examines the entire model city project and

makes an overall plan. But let it be also understood that

in the model city project the law is explicit, it is a

housing reuse area and related facility. It can't be any-

thing else. It is not an urban renewal project. And this

again is something that we can't resolve if we sat from

now to doom's day.

MR. MALAFRONTE° ' Chancellor,

I think I would start mostly by asking for a copy of the

Woods-Cohen Letter which has never been sent to the model

city agency.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN:. I'd like

to make one comment, I certainly agree that the Federal

Letter suggestion that there should be heavy community

involvement in the model cities question, and that all

has to be tied up in these discussions. I don't.agree

what I understood to be your implication that there has

to be at this meeting or in this series of meetings some

absolute resolution of the use or the relationships be-

tween model cities and the community.

MR. MALAFRONTE: I think I

am prepared to address myself to that.

137

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Please

do.

MR. MALAFRONTE: This is

the first time I've officially seen the letter, and there

are "A, B, C, D, E, F, G," that's seven points which re-

lates to the Model Cities Act.

MR. WHEELER: No, they all

don't.

MR. MALAFRONTE: "The follow-

ing steps must be taken in accordance with the Model Cities

Act:"

Then there are seven steps.

I don't see how you can divorce them. "The following steps"

and there are seven steps outlined.

As Director I'd like to re-

view the seven steps, if I might.

MR. DANZIG:. Before you do,

I'd like to tell you how lucky you are. We have put in

ten hours and we are up . to the third step.

MR. MALAFRONTE: I hope we

can move more quickly.

I would say from the model

138

cities point of view that nonq of the seven steps should

create any problem at all for us.

We are prepared, the first

one, "The decision of the ultimate site," this is,

course, a decision to be reached by HUD in accordance with

a plan to be developed over the next nine months. You all

know the model . cities must be developed with community

participation over the next nine months. There is no plan

except that suggested outline in the suggested application.

We suggested various uses, possibilities, suggestions, always

indicating this was subject to the planning process. So

the decision on the ultimate site must satisfy the intent

of the act.

"That it be compatible with

the plans developed for the neighborhood as a whole. Size

of the sites will . have to be resolved in termsof both of

the essential needs of a high quality school and social

impact of the amount of acres removed from residential use."

Which is essentially what

you have been discussing here for some time. The resolu-

tion of that is a resolution of point A.

(B) Certainly there can be

139

no argument with that, that is the prime intent of bringing

the medical school here. If the school does not agree that

that conclusion and operation should bring an increase in

scope and quality, we are all. in the wrong baligame at the

wrong time.

I think our biggest problem

would be " C u ..

"Representatives of the

medical school and the City Demonstration Agency Cmodel

cities) should meet with neighborhood representatives to

discuss neighborhood concerns and to resolve any differences."

Which it seems to me that we have got to talk with this

committee, as you are doing. I say here that I am preparedi

to immediately enter into that dialogue.

"(D) That a relocation plan

be developed meeting the 'needs of neighborhood residents

involved and that firm commitments to this plan be made

by the Newark Housing Authority."

MR. WHEELER: Could you stop

right there? The reason why all seven steps do not apply

to model cities, there are steps there that do not in-

clude model cities.

140

MR. MAEAFRDNTE: I see no

concern here in regard to what model cities action should

be.

"(£) That suitable plans

for employment of neighborhood residents be made bath

in construction and in operation of the center." Which,

of course, we .would most whole heartedly support. As you

know, the national or the NAACP, Mr. Davidson knows that

the NAACP has some national guidelines of this employment

of residents in the facilities to be constructed of model

cities. We have had a meeting of which we have endorsed

the national principles endorsed by NAACP.

"(F) That opportunities

for training of neighborhood residents in health fields

and the development of a health careers program be provided."

That is to be part of the

planning process and ought to be a very important. con-

sideration.

"(G) That, in general,

further long-range planning for additional educational

and health care facilities be linked with City Demonstra-

tion Agency planning under the model cities program."

141

We most heartedly agree with that one. So, as from the

model cities agency point of view, the seven prints as

written in the Woods-Cohen Letter, I see no obstacle ex-

cept the continuous one we are having here in regard to

housing and so forth.

The next one, in plain English,.

in those seven points I have no problem at all. In partic

ular, "HUD must have a firm commitment as to the immediate

and ultimate size of the area to be used by the school, to-

. gather with the redevelopment. plan for the surrounding area."

Which means the model cities plan, but by law it cannot be

completed for nine months. It has to involve residents,

involve people. I can't produce a redevelopment program

for something that hasn't been planned.

MR. DANZIG: Please, a point

of order, please. Now we are introducing a large subject

that is larger than, perhaps, any of the other subjects

we have covered. And I spoke about this earlier in the

hope that we would get down to the seven points, and as

I understood when we broke up at the last meeting if we

g t into substantially relocation, and I said this morning --

please -- that at all times we ought to be decent to par-

142

ticularly those who come from distances and, so, Charlie

Beckett is here from the Philadelphia Office, he is non-

resident, he sat here all day, and while I'm sure that

the discussion was of great interest to him, I think that

we ought not to get off on other subjects, and give him

a chance to he doesn't need to come back again.

MR. WHEELER: Chancellor,

may I just say this. Mr. Beckett is here now and he can

come back again, and there is nothing that is, you know,

presents an ordeal for Mr. Beckett to come back to Newark.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I will

tell you what, why don't we let Mr. Beckett worry about

that and if he has a problem, he will tell the Chair.

MR. WHEELER: I would like

to hear from Mr. Chisolm on what is the model cities pic-

ture as it relates to Newark up to this point, rather than

get involved in the business of "I agree, agree, agree,"

the point of the matter is that we have the representative

for model cities here and I think what we ought to do,

since we have . heard from the local, is to hear from Mr.

Chisolm.

MR. MOORE: Just a minute,

143

he hasn't heard any questions.

MR. DANZIG: Mr. Chairman,

are you running this meeting? I have asked a point of

order..

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: And I

think I have answered the point of order.

MR. DANZIG: No, Mr. Wheeler

answered the point of order.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I did.

I said that if Mr. Beckett has a problem of staying here,

he can let me know and I'd be delighted to do anything

that we can do to accommodate him.

MR. WILLIAMS: I have a spe-

cific question that I would like to ask in conjunction

with this model cities aspect, because as you agreed,

there are some things that take the matter beyond model

cities. There are some things that place it squarely within

the hub of model cities. I would like to say that that

total task force that you have set up is just untenable.

MR. MALAFRONTE: We have

attempted, as you know, to reach you and have you talk to

us about this matter.

144

MR. WILLIAMS: I did not know

about this.

MR. MALAFRONTE

In fact,

I know you were asked to discuss it with us, and you said

you would think about it.

MR. WILLIAMS: For the record,

that is not true. He did not ask me to speak about model

cities.

MR. TREET: I did ask Mr.

Williams to meet with me and the matters were not clear as

to what we were toing to meet on.

MR. MALAFRONTE: I have made

it clear here to say that we want to meet on this matter,

Junius, with Wheeler, whoever represents the committee,

to discuss (C), we ought to have these differences, obviously

the subject would be the task force. You said it is clear

that the task force is not suitable. I would say it is a

proper and fit subject for that discussion and that we are

not bound to it and we would like to have ideas about it.

We would be glad to enter into those discussions with you,

quickly I had hoped, but certainly at the convenience of

this committee.

145

A SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman, I

would like to concur with the statement that Mr. Williams

made: In relationship to the task force set up by the

city, they knew damn well they had a stacked deck going

for them.

MR. MALAFRONTE: I say It is

not pertinent, let's change the deck.

A SPEAKER: I am not too

sure I'm satisfied with Mr. Malafronte as the head of the

model cities program. I go a step further than that, I

am not too sure the community is going to accept you.

MR. MALAFRONTE: Well, that

may be --

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Just be-

quiet a minute.

A SPEAKER: Just shut up

and listen. Why don't you direct your remarks to him,

Mr. Director, he is the guy doing all the cutting in'

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I asked

you, Mr. Wright, to continue.

MR. WRIGHT: Just tell him

. to shut up. All the things that you have been involved

146

in and the city's administration and establishing the task

force, we have been fighting this for a period of time.

Second of that, it should be

put on the record, and I think it is going to go on the

Governor's desk, is that the state is going to have some

say, it seems to me, and some other folks in the community

know what a task force is going to be like in community

representation. Not the kind that you folks have stacked

the deck up with.

MR. MALAFRONTE: If I may

respond by saying I have no idea of what the state involve-

ment is in model cities, we had hoped it wasn't a stacked

deck. If you feel it is, let's talk about it. I haven't

heard a complaint about the task force officially. I

have heard rumblings, no person has made a formal complaint.

I am offering to you the ability to deal a new deck will-

ingly, and I wish you would be included in those meetings.

MR. WRIGHT: The city govern-

ment means to serve the need of the people, and in this

city the deck will not be stacked up by Willy Wright, it

will become a community involvement.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: May I

147

make a suggestion here, that it does seem to me that it

is somewhat beyond our power here this afternoon to re-

solve the question of the composition. of the"task force,

and it seems to me that this is a prior responsibility of

the city authorities and the community to get together and

structure that task force in a way that accords with the

principles of the Model Cities Act.

Mr. Chisolm, would you like

talk to any of this?

MR. Chisolm is the regional

representative from Philadelphia.

MR. CHISOLM: I don't want

to make an input at this time. I am here to observe what

is going on. If there are issues at stake, I am prepared

to relay those to the officials qf the region and to

Washington. If I can be of assistance in other ways, I

am prepared to do that. I am not prepared to inject my-

self into these negotiations, I will not do so.

MR. WHEELER: If I may, I

think thern . is something pertinent that relates to the

judgement process that Mr. Chisolm has to be involved in

that ought to be made public at this juncture, and it is

148

with this in mind that I would suggest that Mr. Moore

address himself to this so that Mr. Chisolm can, get the

benefit of this kind of information which will certainly

be a salient factor in subsequent judgements that he will

have to make.

MR. CHISCLM: I want to be

present at all of the negotiations that relate to this.

MR. MOORE: All right then,

as it relates to the league of submission of Newark's

Model cities revised application to HUD, there is a portion

in the introduction, itsays in essence that the city has

completed plans and served U.C.C. as the city's umbrella

organization. My question is this, being a fact, if this

constitutes the joint planning of Mr. Malafronte and the

Mayor, and if it does not constitute the joint planning,

is it Mr. Malafronte's singular planning and determination

that U.C.C. be destroyed, and, if so, is the Mayor in

agreement?

-

MR. WHEELER: This is infor-

mation for you to share, it is not directed to you, Mr.

Chisolm.

MR. MALAFRONTE: The answer

149

is very clear and very simple, that the submission which is

the response to the discussion paper was written prior to

the Commission Report on Civil Disorders, at which time

there was planning to undertake the law of the land. Now,

the main question I've asked is does this reflect the

current thinking? The answer is no, it does not. You had

a meeting with the Mayor, as you know, yesterday, in which

the Mayor said that is not the thinking, we are restudying

•tht question, there . is no decision on the matter and it is

open.

MR. MOORE: My question was

did this constitute the joint thinking and planning of

you and the Mayor, and, if not, (8) was this your singular

planning and determination to destroy U.C.C., and if it

was your singular determination and planning, was the

Mayor in agreement?

MR. MALAFRONTE: The City

of Newark must exercise an option under the law. The law

has been changed, we have to deal with that.

MR. MOORE: It gives you

three options, one is in the area that you have expressed

in your submission to HUD. The other is that the city opt

150

out altogether, end .the other is that you choose some other

agency or vehicle.

MR. MALAFRONTE: That is a

matter of the U.C.C. discussion. No decision has been

made on it.

DR. ODOM: Since U.C.C. has

been mentioned -- I am Dr. L. Sylvester Odom, the Director

of U.C.C.. I have chosen not to take part in these discus-

sions because I am a Johnny-come-lately. I do feel bound,

however, to speak at this point.

The fact of the matters are

that in the latest submission of the City of Newark over

the signature of Mayor Addonizio to HUD, the concrete de-

cision of the city to absorb U.C.C. is stated. Now, it is

true that this was before the Governor's Riot Commission

Report was made. The Governor's Commission strongly urged

that the city not exercise this option to absorb U.C.C..

Mr. Malafronte and I have

had conversations on this, and as I have understood his'

statement to me, his plan is to have the city designated

as. the cap for the City of Newark, and then to allow U.C.C.

to instruct an administering hoard which is the law, it

151

can be done. The city is not mandated to take over the

poverty agency, the city has the privilege of applying to

have itself designated as the cap, a privilege which Mr.

Malafronte has stated to me the city fully intends to

exercise.

MR. MALAFRONTE: I think it

is important that I speak to this at this point.

What Malafronte indicated

was prior, possible, whatever, to the meeting with the Mayor

yesterday, at which he told Dr. Odom in no uncertain terms

that there was no decision at this time and that everything

that had gone before was not pertinent.

DR. ODOM: Let's not play

games, you know that you told me that the issue of U.C.C.

would come under the umbrella of what is non-negotiable,

you told me that.

MR. LOFTON: Who is speaking?

MR. MALAFRONTE: As far as

MR. LOFTON: Who is speaking

MR. MALAFRONTE: Obviously

I know, that is true.

for the Mayor?

152

the Mayor.

(At which time a five minute

recess was taken.)

DR. ODOM: Mr. Chairman,

all I want to say is that the issue of whether there shall

be a viable independent poverty agency in the City of

Newark is of as much crucial importance as can be located

or identified anywhere in the country, in my opinion, be-

cause of the peculiar nature of the problems in this commu-.

nity. I do not believe to be in the best interest of this

community for the poverty program, and I say this without

regard to any consideration of my own position in. the

poverty program. I am not a poverty fighter by profession,

I am a clergyman by profession and I am quite prepared to

.enter my own profession full time. But with regard to

the best interest of the community, in my own opinion,

and I say this without hesitation, it would not be in the

best interest of this community to have the poverty program

come under the Ajax of the City. I say this, of course,

after four months in my position of executive director of

the United ' Community Corporation, after four months of

living and working in this town.

153

Now, the reason I took the

floor was because there are some things that are true and

must be stated for the record. First'of which is that

the city's reason, latest submission to HUD with regard to

the model cities program states without equivocation the

city's plan to take over the United Community Corporation.

I say this in regard to the fact that after the Governor's

Riot Commission Report had been made, I received a call

from Mr. Malafronte advising me that the city was prepared

as of that day to release to the press a statement to the

effect that the city planned to have itself designated as

the cap agency for this town, with U.C.C. retaining what

will amount to only a kind of advisory board status. It

is referred to in the law, and that is in the green amend-

ment to the Economic Opportunity Act as an administering

board, that is a board which exercises its option to have

itself named as the cap agency. You have an administering

board which is made up of qne third city, one third repre-

sentatives of the poor and one third from the business,

social religious of the community. But it has no policy

making authority underthe law, as I read that law and as

my counsel has advised me.

154

Now, the city does have a

right to exercise this option. If it chooses to exercise

it, it must do so in full glare of the fact that it is

exercising that option, that it is taking over all of. the

power, all of the authority, all of the policy making

function formerly assigned to the Board of Directors of

the United Community Corporation. Mr. Malafronte has

stated on more than one occasion, including to the press

a few minutes ago, that it is his considered judgement that

this is what the city should do. He has stated to me that

this is what the city plans to do and that this is a non-

negotiable item. He has stated toy that the city and the

U.C.C. have been on a collision course for a long time.

He said yesterday in his office that when there are two

people on a collision course, the only way to solve that

is take one of them off. And he doesn't plan to take the

city off. That leaves only the conclusion that he plans.

to take us off. A11 . 1 want to do is put the record out

there, making it crystal clear that I do not regard this

in the best interest of the community, nor in the best

interest of the United Community Corporation. And as I

said to the press, if it does happen, it will constitute

155

a condition under which I could not in good conscience

continue to serve.

MR. MALAFRONTE: First of

all, by endorsing entirely the account that Mr. Odom has

put into the record here, I think, however, he fails to

indicate that he expressed these very same opinions to me

in that telephone call, and that I put them to the Mayor,

and that the Mayor then said we ought to discuss it in

detail with the U.C.C. before we make any decisions on the

matter, because he respected Dr. Odom's opinion in this

matter. We then had a subsequent conversation which we

arranged to have a meeting the following day to discuss

this meeting. At that meeting, which I again, I think,

can endorse entirely Dr. Odom's account of what I had said

to him, but said that the Mayor at this point, since he

had a great deal of respect for Odom's opinion, and that in

this matter would not make a decision. At that time the

Mayor entered the room and reassured the persons there

that he indeed had not made a decision on this matter and

did not intend to do so without deep and involved discussion

with the U.C.C., and he asked that they begin. A meeting

has been arranged for Monday at two o'clock. I still feel,

156

and I think I should say it quite bluntly, that we are in-

deed, and have been for several years, on a collision course.

I do not think it is in the best interest for this to con-

tinue.

He says it is non-negotiable.

To me, what is non-negotiable is a decision to some how

remove these two fine institutions, the city government

and the anti-poverty agency. I think some way must be

found if this town is to pull itself together and to do

the kind of things that people around this table have been

talking about. My feeling last month was that (1) exercise

the option was a sensible thing. At this point still

personally feel that I see no way to avoid the continuous

collision which produces so much tension in the community

without it. However, Dr. Odom has suggested that that is

not the case, that there are many other ways in which this

can be done. These are to be the subject of the discussions,

and I think they should be healthy ones so I don't think

we come together in an atmosphere of clash and concern.

I certainly can understand Mr. Moore's concern, he works

for the agency, Mr. Lofton, who works for the agency in a

delicate capacity, certainly they have their point of view

157

and are entitled to it.

I could suggest in a very

humble manner, Dr. Odom, that I too am entitled to my

opinion. I do not back down from it. I do not try to hide

it. That is my opinion and I believe I am entitled to it.

DR. ODOM: Don, while you

are not hiding . it, why don't you not hide the fact that

you stated to six of us yesterday that your desire is to

kill U.C.C.?

MR. MALAFRONTE: Not my desire.

MR. WHEELER: You said it

ten minutes ago.

DR. ODOM: Since you are not

hiding anything, don't hide that either.

MR. MALAFRONTE: My hope is

to avoid necessary tension in this community, that's my

goal and my lire. I hope you will endorse that goal, Mr.

Odom.

DR. ODOM: I will not endorse

it through the medium of a bit in my mouth. Don, I want

you to understand that. I will not allow a bit to be placed

in my mouth by you or anybody else.

158

MR. MALAFRONTE: May I con-

clude by saying that this does not appear to be a matter

of concern in the Woods-Cohen Letter.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: I was

going to make that point.

DR. ODOM: I have one question

that deals with the Woods-Cohen Letter.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Wait a

minute. I agree that that is not a matter precisely within

the Woods-Cohen Letter, but the letter, I submit to you and

everyone else here, is something that comes out of Washing-

ton. We are concerned with the problem here in Newark and

New Jersey, and I do think it is relevant, it is absolutely

inextricably bound with all of the issues that we are

talking about here.

DR. ODOM: Just one question,

I'd like to ask, since the city submitted two applications

to HUD, 1, the last one is the one in which it is unequivo-

cably stated that they plan to take over U.C.C.. I'd like

to ask Mr. Chisolm what is the status of that application?

It also detailed the citizen

participation plan for model cities as outlined by Mr.

159

Malafronte in his letter. Is that acceptable or not?

What is the status of that present application?

MR. CHISOLM: The City of

Newark submissions are under review, just as all of the

others that we have been reviewing. That is as much as I

can tell you. It has not been approved, still under review.

A SPEAKER: I'd like to say

something. U.C.C., of course, I'm a chairman of the Board

of Trustees of Area Board 2. And I don't work for the agency,

I don't receive any pay from it and some of the others around

this table don't receive any pay from the area board.

MR. WHEELER: Let the record

state that I don't work for it.

A SPEAKER: And I would like

to inform you that if the city does take it over that you

are going to be in serious trouble with the community. I

work very hard in order to bring about change in the City

of Newark through U.C.C.. I volunteered my time and effort

and everything else in order to see to it that we have a

different Newark. Now, if the U.C.C. is taken over, then

we will lay it at your doorstep, the problems that it's

going to entail in the City of Newark.

160

MR. MALAFRONTE: The decision

must be in the best interest of the City of Newark.

MR. STERNS: I think it is

relevant at this time to report something that took place

as far as the state government's position is concerned,

and Governor Hughes specifically asked that this be mentioned

if it should come up in these discussions. He was surprised

on Thursday afternoon of the concerns of the United Commu-

nity Corporation about the possibility of the city's option

under the green amendment, and he wants the record to show

that both he and Commissioner Ylvisacker, the Governor fully

supports his committee on the civil disorder, and he has

stated that he will do anything that is within his power

under the law to maintain the independence of that organiza-

tion. And he has expressed himself to Mayor Addonizio and

he asked specifically that that be put on the record should

it come up today.

REV. SHARPER: From the very

outset where model cities are concerned, when the term was

" Demonstration Cities", a group of ministers and others

organized themselves and went to the Mayor and asked to be

permitted to organize a corporation to serve as the umbrella

161

sponsoring agent for model cities on behalf of the City of

Newark. The Mayor then decided, evidentally, that he

wanted the city itself to be the sponsoring umbrella agency,

and he acted in deference to our request. That was the

first mistake he made.

The second we made was to hire

Mr. Malafronte as the director of a project that was to

have its main import, the lifting of oppressed and disin-

herited minorities, and I think this young man has demon-

strated here today that he has no guts, no capacity for

dealing on amicable terms with that segment that so largely

populates the City of Newark. That was the second mistake

that he made.

Now, the third mistake that

he makes with his second mistake at his elbow, is the fact

that he is going to designate the city as the sponsoring

agent or to take over U.C.E.. In spite of the fact that

the Governor of this state would appoint a responsible

committee of individuals, and they come up with the recom-

mendation that undermine, that further undermines, and if

there was any confidence on the part of a large segment of

this community in the administration of this city, when,

162

in fact, we have no respect for City Hall at all. It is

just there. It is not even a shell of anything that has

any integrity in it where we are concerned. And then, in

spite of all that, it is going to take over the only agency

that we call ours.

I want the record to show

that we are not all resenting this, but we have no confi-

dence in the Mayor in the first place. We felt that he

was over ambitious, that he and Mr. Lindsay over in New

York or other cities have allowed grounds like ours to be

the sponsoring umbrella, but not here in this town. It

couldn't be that way. It just had to be under his wing and

he just had to boss the whole thing. So, he's bossed out

and you were outwitted. You might as well know that today

what confidence we did have, he messed that up. And if he

takes over U.C.C., he and you are in for trouble.

MR. MALAFRONTE: May I respond

to that?

REV. SHARPER: Mr. Malafronte,

actually I think I suggested this to you last summer, you'd

do us a big favor if you went back to Brooklyn, even if you

stayed on salary.

163

MR. MALAFRONTE: Three points

were raised by Rev. Sharper, who, by the way, is a member

of the task force --

REV. SHARPER: I was designated

as a member of the task force. You have met none of the

requirements that HUD or any other government. agency are

supposed to okay. If I come to any meeting, I'll come be-

cause I'm coming for the sake of my people to keep.you from

making a bigger mess, but I feel like a fool sitting up

in any meeting that you call.

MR. MALAFRONTE: Number one,

the point was decided to run the program in place of a

non-profit corporation. The law requires it.

REV. SHARPER: That's not

true.

MR. MALAFRONTE: Further,

all decisions and programatic material must be approved by

the City Council under HUD, be they designated programs or

subordinate responsibilities or whatever. Further, in

New York City the city is the model agency under Mr. Lindsay,

not a non-profit corporation.

Number three, the Mayor has

164

not made a decision on U.C.C. and would like to enter into

dialogue about that which you presumed this meeting was

all about.

REV. SHARPER: Let him. Let

him have HUD send it back so it will not be in their pos-

session.

MR. MALAFRONTE: Point number

three I think was really my personal performance and what

you think of it, which is very nice, and I'm glad to have

it. However, I don't think it is particularly pertinent.

As to the submission to HUD,

I think it is quite clear in my response to Mr. Williams

and Mr. Wheeler here on C, this is clearly a difference,

and since we have already offered to enter into negotiations

and meetings, the prior submission or second or revised

admission to the discussion paper is in fact the subject

of that meeting, and, therefore, is no longer before HUD.

Since we have expressed a willingness to discuss this, it

is no longer pertinent.

MR. WILLIAMS: I want to take

a step back and direct an answer to Mr. Malafronte, because

I think the collective attitude of just about everybody in

165

this room as regards you is very indicative of the fact that

we do not trust you. Therefore, I think that's very perti-

nent to the matters at hand because the final point on the

Woods-Cohen Letter says "That, in general, further long-range

planning for additional educational and health care facili-

ties be linked with City Demonstration Agency planning under

the model cities program." Now, that is a condition that

we plan on sticking with, just as we plan on sticking with

the other six conditions.

MR. MALAFRONTE: Where is that

one?

MR. WILLIAMS: "G" an page 3.

If your personal performance is not adequate, if the machinery

is not adequate, we plan to take issue with you on that par-

ticular matter.

Now, I will agree with you

that we, perhaps, should not discuss the details of that

participation mechanism, but I think this conversation is

very relevant, I think it is time you heard some of these

things put in a contact where others will hear just as well.

CHANCELLOR DUNGAN: Ladies

and gentlemen, I think we have come somewhat to the end of

1G6

productive discussion on this point. It seems to me that

what we have here is an issue between the city officials

and the community, the U.C.C. and organized and unorganized

members of the community. And what I would like to suggest,

if it is possible, because it is directly relevant to every-

thing that we are discussing here, that we impose further .

our time and energies and see that if by our meeting on

Monday evening, the representatives of the community could

meet with the city officials in an attempt to resolve some

of the outstanding questions.

MR. LOFTON: Mr. Chairman, I

keep hearing it said first, 1, that the differences in terms

of-Mr. Malafronte's and the Mayor's decision to HUD in terms

of indicating in their revised submission that they intended

and finished all plans for the absorption of the U.C.C. and

that it had no relevance to this question.

MR. MALAFRONTE: I can clear

it up.

MR. LOFTON: Please, just a

minute, please. What I'm saying is it is directly relevant

because of the fact that citizen participation to me means

that it has to be independent citizen participation. Now,

167

obviously if the U.C.C. is gobbled up under this umbrella

sort of thing, it is not the kind of citizen participation

that I contemplate in the reading of "C" of the Woods-Cohen

Letter. It seems to me that if that controversy is not

resolved, we are not going to get to any public hearing as

it relates to that. In my judgement, until that decision

is resolved . , because of the fact there is no citizen parti-

cipation basically because there are other groups, but I

think all other groups in this community recognize the U.C.C.

as being a community. group. that has wide citizen participa-

tion, and if that is up under some umbrella that Mr. Mala-

frante is talking about, we cannot participate independently

in the discussions we are having here.

Secondly, we are. also not

going to be able to work out the fine details of all these

kind of plans. Therefore, to borrow one of Mr. Wheeler's

phrases, a lot is going to rest in the mutual trust and

confidence that is built. I think that becomes germain in

terms of the kind of promises the community is going to

have to accept. Therefore, it becomes pertinent who the

personalities who are making those promises are. So, con-

sequently, I think a lot of serious thought is going to

168

have to go into who is going to he making those promises

in terms of the community being expected to buy that confi-

dence.

MR. MALAFRONTE: In addition

to being a veto agent, you want to be a personal agent also,

is that right?

MR. LOFTON: I didn't inter-

rupt Mr. Malafronte.

ti. MALAFRONTE : What I am

saying is that this is definitely directly germain to the

community that is going to be called upon at some point in

these negotiations to have to accept some things on faith

end trust, because obviously we are talking about elaborate

problems, these things are not going to be able to meet

the time table that everyone is concerned about.

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I, Guy J. Renzi, do hereby

certify that the foregoing is a true and correct transcript

of proceedings taken at the time and place hereinbefore

mentioned.