WordPress.com · 2017-03-17 · KEVIN COOPER, Defendant-Appellant. FROM SAN DIEGO COUNTY HON. RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE San Diego County Superior Court Case No. CR 72787 REPORTERS

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SUPREt·1E COURT - STATE OF CALIFORNIA

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA,

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SUPREME COURT NO.~M J. c/-S-.f')..,

Plaintiff-Respondent,

vs.

KEVIN COOPER,

Defendant-Appellant.

FROM SAN DIEGO COUNTY

HON. RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE

San Diego County Superior Court Case No. CR 72787

REPORTERS' TRA~CRIPT

VOLU~E ~ /." '-lJq'l December December

5, 1984, Pages ~ through 4528 6, 1984, Pages 4529 through 4625

APPEARANCES:

For the Plaintiff and Respondent:

For the Defendant and Appellant:

JOHN K. VAN DE KAMP Attorney General State of California 110 West -A- Street San Diego, Ca. 92101

IN PROPRIA PERSONA

ROBERT L. ROACH, CSR 11727 DONNA D. BEARD, CSR 11874 Official Reporters San Diego County Superior Court 220 West Broadway San Diego, California 92101

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IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO

DEPARTMENT NO. 30


Plaintiff,

va.

KEVIN COOPER,

Defendant.


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NO. OCR-9319

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APPEARANCES:

REPORTERS' TRANSCRIPT December 5, 1984

For the People: DENNIS KOTTMEIER District Attorney

For the Defendant:

WITH: JOHN P. KOCHIS Deputy District Attorney 1540 Mountain Avenue Ontario, California 91762

DAVID L. McKENNA Public Defender BY: DAVID E. NEGUS Deputy Public Defender 1060 West Sixth Street Ontario, California 91762

ROBERT L. ROACH, CSR .1727 DONNA D. BEARD, CSR .1874 Official Reporters

COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

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roR ~_ PEOPLE;

GREGONIS, DANIEL J. (Mr. Kochis) (Mr. Negus)

INDEX OF WITNESSES

Direct Cross

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Redirect Recross

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INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Ideo.

5-G Plastic overlay 4473 for Exhibit 5

6-F Plastic Overlay 4400 for Exhibit 6

592 Chart - Phisiological 4425 Fluids from Ryen Home

593 Chart - Phisiological 4464 Fluids from Lease Home

594 Chart - Phisiological 4469 Fluids from Ryen Car

596 Chart - Blood types 4445 of Other Parties

597 3 x 5 Black & White 4443 Amount of Sample A-41

598 Chart - Butcher Paper 4503 Time Lines


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SAN DIEGO. CALIFORNIA. WEDNESDAY. DECEMBER S. 1984 9:30 A.M ••

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(Chambers conference reported.)

THE COURT: All right.

6 For the record, we're in chambers out of the

7 presence of the jury, all counsel and the defendant.

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MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, when we broke yesterday at the

evening recess, it was my desire to ask Mr. Gregonis what the --

10 based on the survey conducted by the FBI, what the approximate

11 population was of the United states of America, and what

12 percentage of the population was black.

13 There was an objection, and the Court was going to

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read the Collins case, and perhaps hear additional argument in

the morning and have a ruling as to whether I could ask Mr.

Gregonis those two questions.

THE COURT: The two questions again are what? What the

population of the blacks are in the United States?

MR. KOCHIS: Population of the people in the country, in

the United States, and what percentage, according to the survey,

are blacks.

THE COURT: Okay. I have read the Collins case.

You want to be heard?

MR. NEGUS: Yes. The only rational, the only grounds

that it could be relevant is if they are going to quantify and

attempt to quantify the number of people in the country that

might have the same blood type as Mr. Cooper. That cannot be

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1 What the information that has been collected is is

2 frequencies of various genes in a limited population. Nobody

3 has ever done a census to try and determine how many people

4 there are with a given gene frequency.

5 The information in its relevant precise form is

6 what the frequency is. Attempting to quantify is (A) misleading

7 because there is no way you could tell from frequencies whether

8 in fact the expected amount turns up or not. It could be a

9 hundred times less, a hundred times greater, and as these

10 particular frequencies are done by multiplying individual

11 frequencies together, the grounds for error even gets greater.

12 In attempting to quantify I would say that what

13 they're trying to do is the same sort of principle as involved

14 in People versus Collins. How many people are there that could

15 fit this particular profile.

16 We don't -- basically, population geneticists at

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this time don't know the answer to that question, and that

encourages speculation on inaccurate and misleading grounds, and

it is not -- there is

THE COURT: Do you claim that any of the quantitative

figures used by Mr. Gregonis thus far were given without

inadequate foundation? That is, so many people of the black

23 population have this ABO breakdown, so many have a secretor, so

24 many have these enzymes and proteins. So, we have got a

25 foundation, adequate foundation for each of those things thus

26 far.

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MR. NEGUS: What you have --

THE COURT: which is unlike Collins.


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1 MR. NEGUS: But the difference is, the differp.nce is that

2 going from a frequency to a number is not statistically

3 accurate.

4 I mean, statisticians cannot tell you, based upon

5 the kind of studies they did, how many people in the united

6 States have a particular gene type. That is, that's the

7 conclusion that the prosecution wants to draw, and that is not

8 supported by the figures that we have. We don't have that kind

9 of, that kind of, that kind of figures. All we have is

10 frequencies.

11 They've got everything that they need in order to

12 argue the case. But the frequencies don't change whether you

13 have a population of two hundred million, four billion or

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whatever. I mean, the frequencies are frequencies, and there is

nothing to say that there is, you know, no matter what the

frequencies are you cannot predict how many people in this

particular type have a particular gene type, how many people in

the country.

As they are stated now, without objection, they are

accurate. You try and quantify it it becomes inaccurate,

misleading.

THE COURT: Mr. Kochis.

MR. KOCHIS: Well, your Honor, it seems to me

THE COURT: Are you sure you want to go ahead on it? I

can distinguish it on -- I am sure you can from the Collins

case, based upon the foundation that you have presented, and yet

I can't deny the logic of his statement as well, some of them.

So, I never know. Do you want to take a chance


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getting that kind of evidence in? I don't think it amounts to a

hill of beans for you.

MR. KOCHIS: Well, it seems that the two answers I'm

striving to get are matters that the Court could really even

take judicial notice of. There -- I mean, they are matters of

survey is not even asking anybody to speculate on a figure.

There are relative a finite number of people in the country.

THE COURT: So, you are saying then, Mr. Negus is saying,

basically you have gotten everything that you need to permit you

to argue.

MR. KOCHIS: I didn't draw that analysis, but --

THE COURT: You know, if it only occurs in such -- eleven

out of ten million black people, that is pretty persuasive.

Now, what more do you need?

MR. KOCHIS: Everything I can get.

THE COURT: Well, you know, as a risk to getting it in, I

am not trying to talk you out of it: push your point if you

wish.

MR. KOTTMEIER: I guess one thought maybe, your Honor.

There may be one of the jurors that has a general idea of what

the population is for any of these things and you might find

them bringing that in, and it might be better to have the

accurate figure as opposed to somebody pulling the number out of

the air, saying, yeah, I know how many there are in the United

States and here it is.

MR. KOCHIS: I will think about that area further before

I ask the question. I doubt Mr. Gregonis is going to be done

testifying today.


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THE COURT: All right, we will take it up later.

Okay, let's go.

How do you feel, Mr. Cooper?

MR. COOPER: I'm all right.

THE COURT: Good.

(Chambers conference concluded.)

(The following proceedings were held in

open court in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: I bid you good morning.

4398

12 Everybody is present.

13 Mr. Kochis, you still have Mr. Gregonis on the

14 witness stand.

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MR. KOCHIS: Thank you, your Honor.

DANIEL J. GREGONIS,

called as a witness on behalf of the People, having been

previously duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified further

as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)

BY MR. KOCHIS:

Q. Mr. Gregonis, returning for a moment to where we

left off yesteraay afternoon, specifically back with Exhibit

589.

So there is no confusion, for the record, of the

28 six people on the chart, is it accurate to say they are all ADA


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type 1, AK type 1?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. NOw, when we finished yesterday afternoon you were

4 talking about frequency with which the defendant's genetic

5 profile would appear in the black population, and I believe when

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we left off yesterday you mentioned that frequency was eleven

out of every ten million persons. Right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And as I recall you qualified that somewhat and

10 indicated that that was a frequency with which the defendant's

11 profile would appear in a population of black persons.

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A. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Q. Could you perhaps then add on the chart, under the

ten million, could you put a line, and could you put a B period,

H period to indicate that is the frequency within the population

of people that have black heritage.

A. (Witness complied).

Q. You may resume your seat for a moment.

Now, did you use the results that you got on this

Exhibit, on 589, to compare against the profile of some stains

that you analyzed in the course of your job in this case?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And did you, for example, analyze serologically a

number of stains which, through laboratory identification

number, you were able to identify as being collected by Mr.

Stockwell from the Ryen home in this case?

A. That is correct, yes.

Q. Were they essentially the -A- series of stains?


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Yes, sir.

Were those stains removed by yourself from some

3 location in the lab to be analyzed?

" A. They were removed by myself from the freezer in our

5 laboratory.

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Q.

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Serological freezer?

Yes, sir.

Do do you have those results with you?

Yes, I do.

NOw, directing your attention to an exhibit which

11 has previously been identified as Exhibit 6; it's been

12 previously identified as a diagram of the Ryen home.

13 For the record, over that we've placed two pieces

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of clear plastic. One has been marked for identification as

6-F, and it was the clear plastic that was filled out by Mr.

Stockwell indicating the various location of the -A- series

items in the Ryen home.

And over that we have placed Exhibit 6-H, an

exhibit that you will be working with here in the courtroom.

And the record should reflect that in black ink I'm

going to put -D. Gregonis- for your name.

Did I spell that last name correctly?

A. Yes, you did.

Q. And today's date, which is -12-5-84- and -Ryen

Home-, so the jury will later know to what this piece of clear

plastic applies.

NOw, starting with, for example, A-2, does A-2

28 correspond to the laboratory identification number that was


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1 assigned to some blood that was removed from a telephone which

2 was located in the Ryen home?

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A.

Q.

Yes, it does.

And did you undertake some efforts to serologically

5 type that bloodstain to determine the profile of the person that

6 left the blood on the telephone?

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Q.

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Yes, I did.

what results did you get?

Specifically what results?

Yes.

Okay. As far as the results from the telephone, I

12 analyzed it, I found it was blood, it was human blood, it was

13 ABO type A, EsD type 1, PGM type 2-1, EAP type BA, ADA, type 1,

14 AK type 1, Gc result was negative, my Transferrin result is a

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type C, my CA II result is a type 1, my PEPA result is type 1,

my PGM subtyping result is a type 2+1+, and my Haptoglobin

result is a type 2-1.

Q. NOW, did that profile genetically, the profile of

any of the six persons as being the victims and the defendant's

whose profile are defined on Exhibit 589?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. Which one?

A. It matches the profile of Doug Ryen.

Q. Could you then indicate, perhaps with a red felt

pen, that should be in front of you on the witness stand, could

you use the word name -Doug- over the A-2 on the diagram that

Mr. Stockwell has placed.

A. Yes, I can.


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1 MR. NEGUS: I would object to that procedure, your Honor.

2 There is no -- Mr. Gregonis can only say consistent with the

3 blood of a certain person and we donlt have all the different

4 people that could be.

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THE COURT: Do you want to voir dire?

MR. KOCHIS: Well, perhaps I could let him indicate at

7 the top of the plastic that his results are going to be

8 consistent with. I thought we made that clear yesterday as to

9 what frequency of Mr. Ryenls profile was in the proposed

10 population.

11 THE COURT: I donlt think you need to so indicate, I will

12 overrule the objection.

13 MR. NEGUS: How about they have gone to match as opposed

14 to the consistent With.

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ahead.

THE COURT: Rephrase your question in such a manner. Go

MR. KOCHIS: Well, the question I asked, was it

18 consistent with anybody on the chart.

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THE COURT: All right.

THE ~HTNESS: Well, yes, it is.

BY MR. KOCHIS.

Q. For example, is it fair to say that biologically it

23 is impossible for that stain to have COme from Peggy Ryen?

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A. That is true, yes.

Q. And it is impossible for that stain to have come

from Jessica Ryen?

A. Thatls true, yes.



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from Chris Hughes?

A. Yes.

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4 from Joshua?

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A.

Q.

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Yes.

And that it could not have come from Kevin Cooper?

That is correct. yes.

" But that stain could have come from perhaps six and

a half out of another thousand people who have a profile which

10 is identical to Doug Ryen's.

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Q. So you are --

MR. NEGUS: Objection, I think that assumes a fact not in

14 evidence, too, because the percentage of the stain of the people

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who could donate the stain are not the same as the percentage

that he has up there for Doug Ryen.

BY MR. KOCHIS:

Q. The bloodstain A-2, Doug Ryen is not the only

person genetically perhaps in the country that could have

deposited that stain.


Q. But that stain certainly is consistent with coming

from his body: isn't that true?


Q. Could you then indicate on t3e diagram on A-2 his

first name.

A. Yes, I can. (Witness complied).

Q. NOw, while I have you at the board, did you


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1 likewise perform a series of serological tests on an item that

2 was identified by a number in the lab, A-3, which appeared to be

3 a long piece of rope that had what appeared to be bloodstains on

4 it?

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A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

And did you perform certain serological tests on

7 the rope itself?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. What conclusions did you reach at the end of the

10 testing on the rope?

11 A. I had a number of results from a number of

12 different enzymes and my conclusion on A-3 is that it is

13 probably a mixed stain due to some of the results that I did

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get •

Q. Is there any result in particular that leads you to

16 the conclusion that the blood on that rope was mixed?

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A. Both the EAP and the Haptoglobin types indicate to

me that it is a mixed type.

Q. Now, when you're talking about mixed, for the jury,

are you talking about, for example, simply the blood of more

than one human being on that rope?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. Could you perhaps just indicate with the word

-mixed- over A-3.

A. Yes, I can. (Witness complied).

Q. NOw, let me ask you this, though.

Your conclusion that the blood was mixed, the

28 results themselves, were the results consistent with the


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profiles of any of the victims just taken on their face?

A. No, theylre not.

Q. Was it consistent with the blood of more than one

4 victim being mixed on that rope?

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A. Yep, it is.

Q. Which victims, if any?

A. possibly either Jessica Ryen and Doug Ryen, or

Peggy Ryen and Doug Ryen.

Q. You can resume your seat for a moment.

10 Did you likewise conduct serological tests on

11 various samples of the comforter that were seized in this

12 particular case?

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A. Yes, I did.

Q. And were those the samples that were labeled, for

example, the A-s series?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you test certain samples of the comforter that

18 came from the top of the comforter, which I believe were

19 numbered A-Sa through A-sn?

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A. Yes, I did.

Q. Now, on the comforter samples, were you able to get

genetic profiles which were as complete as the profiles that you

have talked to the jury about on s89?

A. No, I was not.

Q. Is it fair to say that information you got from the

sheets was more limited?


Q. Were there some stains on the -- 11m sorry -- on


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1 the comforter, in which you were only able to get the ABO and

2 perhaps the CA II?

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Q.

Yes, sir.

Was A-Sc, I believe, a stain that gave you

5 information which was more complete than that?

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A. Yes, it is.

Q. And can you tell the jury which enzymes you were

able to reach a conclusion on and what the results were?

A. Yes, I can.

Okay. First of all, I analyzed the stain to see if

it was blood. It is blood, of human origin,

THE COURT: A-Sc now.

THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.

It is an EsD type 1, PGM type 2-1, EAP type BA, ADA

type 1, AK type 1, the Haptoglobin or Hp is negative, along with

the Gc also being negative. The Transferrin is a type C, the CA

II is a type 1, the PEPA is negative again, and the PGM

subtyping is a 2+1+.

BY MR. KOCHIS:

Q. Was that -- were those results consistent with the

genetic profile of any of the six persons whose names appear on

the chart?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Who?

A. Doug Ryen.

Q. Were you able to get a result or some results on

the stain which was labeled A-Sf?

A. Yes, I was.


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What results did you get?

Okay. Again, I analyzed it to see if it was blood,

3 to see if whether it was human blood, which it was. The ABO is

4 consistent with an ABO type B. The EsD type was negative, the

5 PGM type is a type 1, the EAP type is inconclusive, the ADA and

6 the AK are both types lis, the Gc type is inconclusive, the

7 Transferrin is inconclusive. The Haptoglobin or Hp is a type 1,

8 the CA II is type 1, the PEPA is negative, and the PGM subtyping

9 is negative. -.. ~.;,;.:

10 Excuse me. I also did get Transferrin's on that at

11 another run which was type C.

12 o. Were those results consistent with the genetic

13 profile of any of the five victims in this case?

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A. Yes, sir.

Q. Which victims?

A. Peggy Ryen.

Q. NOw, did A~5d, did that appear to be a stain which

may have contained the blood from two people?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. what led you to that conclusion.

A. Basically, my typings along with the physical

appearance of that stain looks like a mix stain.

Q. When you talk about the physical appearance of that

stain, A-Sb, what lead you to the opinion that it may have been

from more than one person?

A. Just looking at the stain it appears that there are

two overlapping bloodstains to it, that are kind of smeared

28 together.


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1 Q. What about the results gave you an indication that

2 stain was the blood of more than one person?

3 A. Okay. Again, the mixed results from that on the

4 ABO and several of the enzymes look like it may be a mixed

5 stain.

6 Q. The actual results themselves, did that profile --

7 was that profile consistent with the profile of any of the two

8 of the victims?

9 A. If you look at the results on any of the two

10 victims, yes.

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Q. Was that essentially Mr. and Mrs. Ryen?


Q. Now, other than the three stains from the top that

we have talked about, did you analyze the other stains of the 5a

and Sn series?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did those stains give you varying amounts of

information depending on how many tests you were able to get a

result on?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. Were the remainder of those stains, were they all

then consistent -- with the limited information you received

from them, were they all consistent with coming from Doug Ryen?

A. With the exception of A-5q and A-Sr, yes, they are.

Q. So, the limited profile on the stains, other than

26 the five, the- three we have talked about, two we're going to

27 talk about, those were consistent with, in the limited sense,

28 that you got profiles with Doug Ryen's profile?


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Yes, sir.

And be consistent with him bleeding on the sheets?

Yes, sir.

Now the two that you mentioned, A-Sq and A-Sr, were

S those -- do your notes reflect those were actually taken off the

6 bottom of the comforter?

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A. Yes, they do.

o. Now, did either of those stains -- let's start with

o. Did Q appear to be a mixed stain?

A. Q is possibly a mixed stain. I got low, if not

11 inconclusive, results for what are called a A Antigen on the ABO

12 type.

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Q. Did you find the presence of any other Antigens at

that location.

A. Yes, I did. The B Antigen.

O. SO, was the low level of the presence of the A

Antigen, did that lead you to what is called an inconclusive

result?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. If there is only the B Antigen present that's an

indication of a person whose an ABO type B; is that correct?


Q. Excuse me. In this case Josh Ryen is an ABO type

B; is that correct?


O. If you have both the A Antigens present and the AB

Antigen present in a stain, that's an indication of a person

28 whose ABO type AB.


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That is correct, yes.

Now, you have to answer the question.


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And, in this case we have two such people, those

5 being mother and daughter, Jessica and Peggy.

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Q.

Yes, sir.

Was there anything about the stain itself which

8 caused you to believe that it might have been mixed?

9 A. Except for the very low level of A, no. That is

10 basically it.

11 Q. Were you able to get any of the enzymes or serum

12 proteins on that stain?

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16

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18

19

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22

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25

26

27

28

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Were those results consistent with coming from

either the mother or the daughter?

A. They could be consistent with coming from Peggy

Ryen.

Q. The other stain you mentioned was the R stain.

Were you able to get an ABO on the R stain?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Was that ABO type AB?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Consistent with either the mother or the daughter.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. \'lere you able to run some and successfully complete

some enzyme and serum protein tests on the R stain?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. which ones?


", U

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1

4411

1 A. The successful ones are the EAP, which is type B

2 and the Haptoglobin, or Hp, which is a type 1.

3 Q. Did those results allow you to discriminate between

4 the mother and the daughter as being the possible donor of that

5 stain?

6

7

8

9

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yes, sir.

And who is the possible donor?

It is consistent with coming from Peggy Ryen.

The limited results you got then as to the R stain

10 are consistent with Mrs. Ryen's profile?

11

12

A.

Q.

Yes, sir.

But is it fair to say that unless you were actually

13 there watching her bleed onto the sheets, you can't say with

14

15

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22

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26

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28

absolute certainty that this blood stain came from Peggy Ryen.

A. That is correct.

~s,-ma~<: Q. Could it have come from another person that had her

profile?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The remainder of the samples on the bottom of the

comforter that you analyzed, other than the Rand Q stain, are

they consistent with coming from a person who had the genetic

profile of Doug Ryen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Turning to the sheets, the bed sheets, and perhaps

starting with the top sheet, did you analyze the number of those

stains as well?

A. Yes, I did.


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, '_.

4412

1 Q. And did you analyze a number the stains on A-10,

2 the bottom sheets?

3

4

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

Starting with A-8c, did you analyze that particular

5 stain?

6

1

8

9

10

11

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A-8c?

Yes.

Yes, I did.

And was there any indication that stain was mixed?

No, there was not.

Were you able to get a complete profile, a profile

12 as complete as you were on Exhibit 589 or did you get somewhat

13 limited results?

14

15

16

11

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

A. I got somewhat limited results on that stain.

Q. What results did you get, which ones?

A. Do you want the types also?

Q. Yes.

A. Okay. It is ABO type AB. PGM type 1. AX type 1,

and that's all I was able to get.

Q. Is that consistent with coming from either the

mother or the daughter in this case?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Did you also find evidence of a stain, evidence of

two stains which were consistent with being deposited either by

Peggy Ryen, the mother, or by someone who had her genetic

26 profile, those being A-8e, and A-Sk?

21

28

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

Were you able to get a complete profile on those or


i

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4413

1 not?

2

3

A.

Q.

NO, I was not.

What results, for example, did you get first on the

4 A-8e stain?

5 A. On the A-8e I got ABO type AB, PGM type 1, EAP type

6 B, AK type 1, haptoglobin or Hp type 1, and a CA II type 1.

7 Q. And that's consistent then with either Peggy Ryen

8 bleeding on though to the sheets or another person who happened

9

10

11

12

to have her profile in those catagories bleeding on the sheets?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recall what the results on K were?

A. Yes, I do. These were ABO type AB, EAP type B, AX

13 type 1, and Hp type 1.

14

15

16

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18

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20

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22

23

24

25

26

27

Q. And likewise was that consistent with a person. of

either Mrs. Ryen's profile or Mrs. Ryen herself?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. Now, the other stains on the top sheet that you

analyzed, were they all consistent with either coming from Mr.

Ryen or a person of his profile, just on A-a? • A. Yes, they are.

Q. SO, at this point, based on the comforter and the

top sheet, you had blood which is consistent by being shed by

the victims while they were attacked in their home?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you likewise perform tests on A-I0?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. NOW, did you find blood on that sheet that is

28 consistent with either coming from Chris Hughes or a person who


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·CI ::J

1

2

3

4

4414

had his profile, and specifically A-lOe?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. what results did you get on that stain?

A. As far as the results, I did find that it was hUman

5 blood. The ABO was inconclusive, PGM is a type 1, AK is a type

6 1, transferrin or Tf is a type C, CA II is.a type 1, and PGM

7 subtyping is a type 1+.

8

9

10

11

Q. Now. the H stain, the A-lOh, was that a stain that

all you could get was that it was blood and that it was human?


Q. The other stains on that bottom sheet, the A-lO

12 series other than Hand E -- excuse me.

13 Did you analyze F, A-lOf?

14

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18

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20

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22

23

24

25

26

27'

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And what results did you get?

A. Okay. As far as the results, again it's human

blood. It is -- as far as the results that I did get, it's an

EAP type B, AK type 1, a Tf or transfe~rin type C, a Hp type 1.

Q. What was the ABO type?

A. AB.

Q. And was that consistent with coming from either

Mrs. Ryen or a person that had her profile?


Q. New, other than those stains, other than F, E and H .

on the A-lO series, the stains which came from the bottom sheet,

were they all consistent with coming from Doug Ryen while he was

bleeding or from a person that happened to match his genetic

28 profile?


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LI

2

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2

A.

Q.

4415

Yes, they are.

Moving back to the chart, specifically to A-26, the

3 blood that was taken from the carpet beneath Chris Hughes, were

4 you able to analyze that serologically?

5

6

A.

Q.

Yes, I was.

What results, could you tell the jury what results

7 you were able to obtain?

8

9

A. Okay. As far as the results, it is blood of human

origin. It's an ABO type 0, EsD type 2-1, PGM 1, PGM 1, EAP BA,

10 ADA type 1, AK 1, CA II 1, PEPA a 1, Gc is negative, Tf is C,

11 and the PGM subtyping is a type 1+.

12 Q. Was that in fact consistent with the genetic

13 profile of Chris Hughes?

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And again, that's consistent with being shed by

Chris Hughes after he was attacked or being shed by a person

that had his same genetic profile that was able to get his blood

underneath Chris Hughes' body; is that correct?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. Could you step to the diagram and could you locate

A-26 on the diagram, and could you put ·Chris· above that

number?

A. Above it?

Q. Right on top of the A-26 actually.

Did you likewise analyze A-27 , the blood which was

taken from the carpet underneath where Mrs. Ryen's body lay?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Were you able to get a genetic profile?


." U , , , ,

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("" 1

2

3

A.

Q.

A.

4416

Yes, I did.

what profile did you get?

Okay. Again it is blood of human origin. It is

4 ABO type AB, Esd type 1, PGM type 1, EAP type B, ADA type 1, AX

5 type 1, Hp type 1, Gc is negative, Tf is a type C, with CA II

6 type 1, PEPA type 1, and PGM subtyping type 1+ 1-.

1 Q. Was that consistent with the profile of the

8 daughter Jessica Ryen?

9

10

11

12

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A-27?

I'm sorry, with Mrs. Ryen Peggy Ryen?

Yes, it is.

So that was consistent with either being shed by

13 Peggy Ryen or by having someone that had her profile getting

14 their blood underneath Mrs. Ryen?

15

16

17

18

19

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24

2S

26

21

28

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Could you indicate perhaps over A-27 the word -Peg-

for Mrs. Ryen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you analyze A-2B, the blood which was removed

from underneath Jessica Ryen, the pool of blood?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Were you able to get results?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Were those results consistent with the genetic

profile of Jessica Ryen?

A. Yes, they are.

Q.

A.

Could you tell the jury what the results were?

Okay. The results, again it's blood of human


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4417

1 origin. It's ABO type AB, EsD type 1, PGM type 1, EAP type BA,

2 ADA type 1, AK type 1, haptoglobin or Hp is a type 2-1, Gc was

3 negative, Tf is a type C, CA II type 1, PEPA type 1, and a PGM

4 subtype which is a 1+ 1-.

5 Q. Could you indicate on the diagram next to that

6 number, which I believe is A-27, ·Jess· for Jessica?

7

8

9

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And with the last pooled sample, A-30, the blood

which came from underneath Mr~ Ryen, were you able to perform

10 certain serological tests on that sample?

A. 11 Yes, sir, I was.

Q. 12 Were the results consistent with coming from Doug

13

14

15

16

Ryen?

A.

Q.

A.

Yes, sir, they were.

What were those results?

Okay. Again it's blood of human origin. It's an

17 ABO type A, EsD type 1, PGM type 2-1, EAP type BA, ADA type 1,

18 AK type 1, CA II type 1, PEPA type 1, Gc type 2-1, Tf type C,

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

and PGM subtype type 2+ 1+.

Q. Could you indicate -Doug- over that particular

letter and number to indicate whose blood it's consistent with?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. NOW, starting to move around the room away somewhat

from the victims, did you analyze A-31, the blood which came I

believe from the southeast wall dresser?

A. Yes, I did.

Q.

A.

Were you able to get some results?

Yes, I did.


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4418

1 Q. Were those results consistent with the genetic

2 profile of any of the victims?

3

4

5

6

7

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Yes, they are.

Which victim?

Of Doug Ryen.

Could you indicate what those results are?

Okay. That blood -- that stain is blood of human

8 origin. It's type ABO A, EsD 1, PGM 2-1, EAP BA, ADA 1, AK 1,

9 Hp type 2-1, Tf type C, Gc was negative, CA II is a 1, PEPA is

10 again negative, and PGM subtype was a negative.

11 Q. Could you then indicate over the A-3l the name

12 "Doug" for Doug Ryen?

13

14

A.

Q.

Yes.

Now, serologically what that would mean is that at

15 one point Mr. Ryen's blood or a person who had the same profile

16 as Mr. Ryen had their blood deposited at that location?

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28


Q. For example, being injured in an attack?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Bleeding at that location?

A. Yes.

Q. Or having Mr. Ryen's blood come off a weapon and

land at that location?

A. That is another possibility, yes.

Q. Did you likewise perform the same type of test with

A-32?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And A-33?


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1

2

3

4

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

4419

A-33?

Yes.

Yes, I did.

Do your notes reflect at least by identification

S where approximately A-32 came from?

6 A. A-32 from my notes says that it's a white slide box

7 containing blood from east head of bed.

8

9

10

Q.

A.

Q.

Was that blood analyzed serologically?

Yes, it was.

was the profile of the blood consistent with coming

11 from Mr. Ryen?

12

13

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15

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17

18

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20

21

22

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24

2S

A. Yes, it is.

Q. What results did you get?

A. Okay. On A-32, again it's blood of human origin.

It's an ABO type A, EsD type 1, PGM 2-1, EAP BA, ADA 1, AK 1, Hp

2-1, Tf is a C, Gc is a type 2-1, CA II is a 1, PEPA is a 1, PGM

subtype is a 2+ 1+.

Q. Could you indicate on the diagram over the A-32 the

A. Yes, I can.

Q. Did you likewise perform a set of tests on A-33

through 35?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And were the results of the prof~les on those three

stains consistent as well as coming from either Doug Ryen or a

26 person that matched his profile?

27

28

A.

Q.

Yes, they are.

Could you tell the jury according to the notes


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4420

where those samples came from and what the results were?

A. Okay. According to my notes A-33 is a metal pill

3 box identified as containing blood spatter from above east bed.

4 A-34 is a metal pill box identified as containing

5 blood from bed stand. Okay.

6 And A-35 is one metal pill box identified as

7 containing blood from closet doors on west side.

8

9

10

11

12

Q.

A-33 through

A.

type A, EsD

Can you tell the jury the results serologically

A-35?

Yes, I can. Okay.

ABO -- A-33 is the blood of human origin. It's

1, PGM 2-1, EAP BA, ADA 1, AK 1, Hp type 2-l,Tf

of

ABO

C,

13 Gc is negative, CA II is a 1, PEPA is a 1, and PGM subtype is a

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

2+ 1+.

Q. All those three samples are consistent with being

shed by Doug Ryen; is that correct?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. Could you indicate on the overlay with the word

"Doug" his name at those locations, A-33, A-34, and A-35?

A. Yes, I can.

Q. Did you analyze a stain which had the laboratory

identification number of A-36?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did your serological results lead you to any

conclusion as to whether or not the stain was mixed?

A. Yes, it did. It -- I believe that the stain is a

27 mixed bloodstain.

28 Q. Why?


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4421

1 A. Two reasons. One is the ABO result gave -- the

2 forward and reverse test gave results that are inconsistent with

3 any blood type that I know of, and the haptoglobin or Hp simply

4 will collect a mixed bloodstain.

5

6

7

Q.

A.

Q.

Can you indicate then over A-36 the word -mixed-?

Yes, I can.

Turning your attention next to A-37, the stain

-8 removed from the northwest wall near the bathroom exit, did you

9

10

11

12

13

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15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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24

analyze that stain?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

victims?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

were?

A.

Yes, I did.

And did you get a genetic profile?

Yes, I did.

Was that consistent with the profile of any of the

Yes, it is.

Was that Jessica?

Yes, sir.

Could you tell the jury what the results actually

Yes, I can.

Okay. Again it's blood of human origin. The ABO

is consistent with an ABO type AB, EsD is type 1, PGM type 1,

EAP type BA, ADA type 1, AK type 1, Gc is inconclusive, Tf is a

C, Hp is a type 2-1, CA II is a type 1, PEPA is a type 1, and

25 PGM subtype is an 1+ 1-.

26 Q.- And again, was that consistent with being shed by

27 Jessica during or after an attack or by a person with her

28 identical profile?


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A.

Q.

4422

Yes, it is.

Could you perhaps place the word ·Jess· at that

3 location on the clear plastic?

.. 5

A.

Q.

Yes, I can.

Did you also analyze A-3a, a stain that came from

6 the location of the bathroom doorjamb, or bathroom door?

7

a 9

10

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

And did you get a profile?

Yes, I did.

Is that profile consistent with coming from blood

11 that was shed by Doug Ryen, the father?

12

13

14

15

16

17

were?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

A-38? No.

I'm sorry, by Joshua.

Yes, sir, it is.

And could you tell us the jury what the results

Okay. Again it's blood of human origin. It's ABO

18 type B, EsD was negative, PGM was negative, EAP is a type B, ADA

l~ is a 1, AK is negative, Hp is a type 1, Gc is a type 2-1, Tf is

20 a type C, CA II, PEPA and PGM subtyping were all negative.

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

Q. That's consistent with coming from Josh?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Could you indicate his name over that location?

A. Yes, I can.

Q. While I have you at the diagram, Mr. Gregonis, you

analyzed A-39, which is a sample taken from somewhere in that

location, I believe the bath doorjamb, is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.


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4423

1 Q. And is that consistent with the profile, the

2 genetic profile of Josh's father, Doug?

3

4

A.

Q.

Yes, it is.

While you are at the board could you put -Doug-

5 over 39?

6

7

A.

Q.

Yes, I can.

And could you return to your seat and tell the jury

8 what the results of A-39 were?

9 A. Okay. A-39 again is blood of human origin. It's

10 an ABO type AB, EsD type 1, PGM 2-1, EAP BA, ADA 1, AK 1, Gc

11 2-1, Tf C, Hp is a type 2-1, CA II 1, PEPA 1, and PGM subtype is

12 2+ 1+.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

Q. And that's consistent again with coming from Mr.

Ryen?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Were the serological results obtained from A-40,

the blood from the north wall closet doors, likewise consistent

with coming from the father, Doug Ryen?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. Could you tell the jury what the results are?

A. Okay. Again it's blood of human origin. ABO type

A, ESD 1, PGM 2-1, EAP BA, ADA 1, AK 1, Hp 2-1, Gc 2--1, Tf C,

CA II 1, PEPA 1, and PGM subtype is a type 2+ 1-.

Q. Could you indicate on the chart on the clear

plastic over the location of A-40 the word -Doug-?

A. Yes, I can.

Q. Now did you likewise analyze a drop of one -- a

28 drop of blood which has been given the laboratory identification


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4424

1 number of A-41, the blood from the hallway?

2

3

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

NOw, did you get a genetic profile of the person

4 that may have deposited -- or that deposited that blood?

5

6

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

Is it fair to say of that genetically it is

7 impossible for that blood to have come from any of the victims

8 in this case?

9 A. That is correct, yes. .

10 Q. And were you able to get results, for example, in

11 the PEPA, the haptoglobin, and the transferrin groups?

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did the results of the tests in those groups

indicate whether or not that drop of blood, A-41, was shed by a

person of black heritage?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. And does it indicate it was shed such a person or

not?

A. It indicates that a person of black heritage

deposited that blood, yes.

Q. Let's skip over that drop for a minute and let's go

down to A-42.

Did you likewise conduct a serological test on

A-42, some blood that was found on the north wall on the hallway

across from the bathroom?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Was the profile of that drop of blood consistent

28 with Jess, one of the victims?


" U I ,

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1

2

3

A.

Q.

A.

4425

Yes, it is.

Could you tell us the jury what your results were?

Okay. Again it's blood of human origin. It's ABO

4 type AB, EsO 1, PGM 1, EAP type BA, AK 1, ADA 1.

5 And there was an insufficient quantity for further

6 analysis.

7 Q. Did you also analysis A-43, A-44, and A-45, all of

8 which were of blood samples from the carpet in that bathroom,

9 the master bathroom?

10

11

A.

Q.

Yes, sir, I did.

And were the profiles on all three of those samples

12 consistent with being shed by Josh Ryen?

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

A. Yes, they are.

Q. Could you tell the jury what the results were on

the A-43 through 45 series?

A. Yes, I can. Okay.

Starting with A-43, it is blood of human origin.

The ABO is a type B, EsD type 1, PGM type 2-1, EAP type BA,

excuse me, B, ADA 1, AK 1, Gc is negative, Tf was a type C, Hp

is a type 1, CA II is a type 1, PEPA is a type 1, and PGM

subtype is a type 2+ 1-.

Q. Could you then indicate on the diagram with A-42

with Jess and then A-43 through 45, Josh, indicating the

consistency of the profiles?

A. Yes, I can.

Q. Directing your attention for a movement, Mr.

27 Gregonis, to a chart we've marked for identification as Exhibit

28 592, do you recognize what this is a chart of?


~

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o.

4426

Yes, I do.

And is it a chart of the serological results of

3 three of the stains that you analyzed in this particular case?

.. 5

A.

o. Yes, it is.

The first, going from top to bottom, the first

6 stain on the chart, is that the stain we briefly skipped over,

7 the A-41 stain which came from the hallway located in the Ryen

8 home?

9

10

A.

o. Yes, it is.

And is that the serological results of the

11 bloodstain that could not have come from any of the victims in

12 this case?

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28


o. Did you start testing that stain back in June of

1983, on approximately June the 9th of 1983?

A. Yes, I did.

o. And did you continue to test that stain at various

times through and into the month of October of 1983?

A. Yes, I did.

O. And have you indicated on the chart the results of

that particular stain?

A. Yes, I have.

O. You tested that stain according to the chart, did

you not, to determine whether or not it was blood?

A. Yes, sir.

O. And was it blood?

A. It is blood, yes.

O. And did you likewise test it to determine whether


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4421

1 it was blood from a human being or from a reptile or something

2 else?

3

4

A.

Q.

It is is human blood, yes.

NOw, did you -- you performed a test on A-4l to

5 determine what the ABO type of that stain was, is that correct?

6

1

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

And the ABO type of the person who shed that blood

8 was what?

9

10

A.

Q.

Is an ABO type A, or that person is an ABO type A

Did you perform the forward and the reverse test on

11 that stain or was there enough there?

12

13

14

A. I did both the forward and reverse, yes.

Q. NOW, does any of the six persons on the chart,

which is the 589, any of those people were the same blood type

15 as the person who deposited A-4l?

16

11

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

>'25

26

27

28

A. As far as ABO?

Q. ABO only.

A. Yes. Both Doug Ryen and Kevin Cooper are ABO type

A, so they are consistent with that.

Q. SO, with the first three columns from left to

right, going only that far, that stain is consistent by being

shed by Kevin Cooper.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Doug Ryen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And all the other people that happen to have ABO

type Als?

A. That is correct, yes, sir.


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4428

1 Q. Then you also did the group one test on that stain

2 using the multisystem; is that correct?

3

4

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

And were you able to get results for both the EsD

5 and the PGM?

6

7

A.

Q.

Yes, I was.

And the person that deposited that stain, the A-41

8 stain, what is that person's EsD and PGM type?

9

10

A.

Q.

That person is an ESD type 1 and a PGH type 1.

NOW, does Mr. Cooper have different EsD and PGH

11 types or the same EsD and PGM types as A-41?

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

A. He has the sa~e EsD and PGM type as A-41.

Q. Turning to the other person on the chart who is an

ABO type A, Doug Ryen, is his PGM type consistent with the PGM

type of A-41?

A. No, it is not.

Q. So, when you get up through the first multisystem

test running the EsD and the PGM, is it fair to say tha"t you can

exclude Doug Ryen as being the human being that deposited that

drop of blood in the hallway in the Ryen home?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. However, is that blood consistent with coming from

the defendant in this case, Kevin Cooper?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. The Group II system, is that the EAP, the ADA and

26 the AX?

27

28

A.

Q.

Yes, it is.

And did you get results from that system when you


, ... ,.; ... -

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4

4429

1 ran it in the laboratory when you were conducting your

2 investigation in this case?

3

4

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

And do you recall the date at which you first got

5 the results that you could read for all three enzymes?

6

7

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A. Yes, I do.

Q. When was that?

A. This would be -- I ran the test overnight starting

on the 2nd, so I would have read it on the 3rd of August, 1983.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

defendant's?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

type?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

And did you get an AK result?

Yes, I did.

What did you call it?

It was a type 1.

And is that the same AK type, for example, of the

Yes, it is.

Did you get an ADA type?

Yes, I did.

What type?

Type 1.

And is that the same ADA type as the defendant?

Yes, it is.

NOW, back in Augu~t of 1983, did you get an EAP

Yes, I did.

And what did you call it?

I called it a B at that time.

Did you also run Mr. Cooper's blood at that time?


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A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

And did you get a result, an EAP result?

Not that same day, no.

Did you get one on about August the 5th?

Yes, I did.

And what did you call his EAP type?

A type B.

4430

Back in August when you ran the test did the EAP

type of A-4l according, to your analysis was it the same EAP

10 type as the EAP type of Mr. Cooper's blood?

11

12

A.

Q.

Yes, it was.

NOW, you now -- had you ever seen an RB that you

13 knew of when you ran A-41 back in August?

14

15

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17

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27

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you take a photograph of the electrophoretic

run that you ran back in August of A-4l?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Have you since gone back to that photograph to

attempt to read the photograph?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Now, you have since done some additional testing on

Mr. Cooper's blood; is that right?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And at this point you know that he is what is

called an RB; is that correct?


Q. Have you gone back to the photograph of A-4l to

28 read it?


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4431

A. Yes, sir, I have. 1

2 o. And would that be to determine whether or not there

3 is an -- Let me stop for a minute.

4 Again with the B and the RB, as you showed us

5 yesterday the first two bands are in essentially the same

6 position; is that correct?

7

8

9


o. And the difference between the B and the RB is

whether there is a storage band which appears in the B EAP type,

10 is that correct?

11

12

A.

o. That is correct, yes.

Or whether there is the R band which appears in the

13 RB?

14 A. That is correct.

15 o. In the photograph you have of A-41 for the EAP run,

16 is the area of the plate which the R band would show up in an RB

17 or the storage band in the B band, is that area in the picture?

18

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24

25

26

27

28

A. It's in the picture, however the development is cut

off at that point.

O. SO that plate was not developed high up into that

area; is that correct?


o. So, at this point can you determine from the

picture whether A-4l is a B or an RB?

A. No, I cannot.

o. What's in the picture, is that consistent with

being a B or an RB?

A. Yes, it is.

COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRI~

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4432

1 Q. It would have to be stained up higher to make that

2 further separation?

3

4

A.

Q.

Yes, it would.

But back in August the EAP type of Mr. Cooper's

5 blood and A-4l appeared to you to be the same; is that correct?

6

7

A.

Q.

Yes, they did.

Now, did you also run the serum protein in Group

8 III?

9

10

11

12

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

And were you able to get results on A-4l?

Yes, I did.

And which -- well, could you tell us what the

13 results are?

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

A. Okay. As far as the serum proteins, the Gc, Tf and

Hp, I was unable to get a conclusive result on a Gc. The Tf,

Transferrin, is type CD, and the Hatpoglobin is a type 2-lM.

Q. Now, the Transferrin type that you got on A-4l, is

that the same Transferrin type that the defendant has?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And does that finding on A-41, for example, that

finding alone, would that exclude A-4l being deposited by any of

22 the five victims in this case?

23

24

25

26

27

28

A. Yes, it would.

Q. The other serum protein you talked about was the

Haptoglogin; is that correct?


Q.

A.

Did you get a finding on that?

Yes, I did.


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Q.

A.

Q.

4433

What was the finding?

It was Haptoglobin, Hp, type 2-1M.

Was. that the same Haptoglobin type that the

4 defendant had?

5

6

A.

Q.

Yes, it is.

That result alone, the Haptoglobin result, for

7 example, would that exclude the possibility of that blood coming

8

9

10

from any of the other five victims in this case?

A. Yes, it would.

Q. And that is consistent, however, with coming from

11 the defendant?

12

13

A.

Q.

Yes, it is.

Did you likewise get Peptidase A, and did you

14 actually get a Peptidase A result?

15

16

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27

28

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What was it?

A. The Peptidase A on this stain is a type 2-1.

Q. And is that in fact the same Peptidase A type that

the defendant in this case has?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Does that result also, in and of itself, simply the

Peptidase A result, exclude the possibility that A-41 came from

the five victims in this case?

A. Yes, it does does.

Q. However, it is consistent with coming from Kevin

Cooper; is that correct?


Q. Now, excuse me. You mentioned the variance of


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4434

1 enzyme types that are indicative of a blood type of a person who

2 has black heritage; is that correct?

3

4

A.

Q.

Yes, sir.

And I believe you testified that among the enzymes

5 that have this variance or varient would include the

6 Transferrins, the Haptoglobin, and the Peptidase A; is that

7 correct?

8

9

A.

Q.


Is the Transferrin type CD an example of an enzyme

10 type which is indicative of a person who had black heritage?

11

12

A.

Q.

Yes, it is.

Is the Haptoglobin 2-lM type the type of serum

13 protein that is indicative of a person of black heritage?

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Likewise the Peptidase A type 2-1, is that type

also indicative of a person who has black heritage?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. On 592 and 589, could you perhaps circle for the

jury, for their use later, the three types that we have talked

about that are indicative of a person with black heritage.

A. Yes, I can.

Again, it would be the Peptidase A 2-1, the

Haptoglobin, or Hp type 2-IM, and the Transferrin CD. (Witness

complied).

Q. Now, based on your serological results, do you have

an opinion as to whether or not A-4l, that drop of blood, is

27 consistent with coming from the defendant in this case?

28 A. Yes, I do.


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4435

what is your opinion?

It is consistent with coming from the defendant,

3 yes.

4 o. Again, to say A-4l came from the defendant and no

5 other person that had his profile, would you have to actually

6 see him drop, shed the blood and then analyze it?

7

8

9

10

11

A. Yes, you would.

o. But you can say that it was impossible for that

blood to have corne from any of the victims in this case.


o. Could you indicate then on 592, perhaps in blue,

12 just the sir name wCooper-.

13

14

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27


Q. And likewise, in the horne on the clear plastic, on

A-41, in the hallway, can you indicate in blue ·Cooper-.



THE COURT: I think this would be a good point, Mr.

Kochis.

MR. KOCHIS: I guess this would be one.

THE COURT: We will take the morning recess. Be mindful

of the admonition, please.

(Recess)

THE COURT: Please resume.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)

28 BY MR. KOCHIS:


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4436

1 o. Mr. Gregonis, I would like to direct your attention

2 back to A-41.

3 Was June the 9th of 1983 the first day at which you

4 started testing that drop of blood in the laboratory?

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6

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28

A. ·Yes, it is.

Q. And which test did you perform on the 9th?

A. I did what is called the presumptive or color test,

the ortho-to1idine, to see if it was blood.

O. You found that A-41 was blood?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you next test the stain on the 12th of June?

A. Yes, sir. I did.

Q. And what test did you perform on the 12th?

A. I did the Species Analysis and the Forward and

Reverse ABO Analysis.

Q. Did you get results?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And was that consistent with the ABO type A.

person?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. The following day, the 13th, is that the next day

that you performed serological tests on A-41?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And thus far the tests would have been performed by

you in the laboratory; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. In San Bernardino?



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1 Q. . Did you do the Group I test, specifically the EsD

2 and the PGM on the 13th of June?

7

8

9

chart?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yes, they are.

On the 28th and 29th of June, did you likewise run

10 tests on A-41?

11

12

13

14

15

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Yes, I did.

Did you do the Group II system on the 28th.

Yes, I did.

Did you get results?

I got a result for ADA which is type 1. The EAP

16 and AK were both inconclusive.

17 Q. Was that the only test you did on the 28th? On

18 that stain. Excuse me.

19

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23

24

25

26

27

28

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. \'lhich test did you perform on the stain the

following day on the 29th?

A.

PEPA.

Q.

A.

Q.

chart?

A.

The Group IV Test, which are the CA II and the

Did you get results?

Yes, I did.

Are those the results that you indicated on the

Yes, they are.


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4438

1 Q. Now, up until this time did you have a sample, a

2 whole sample of the defendant's blood?

3

4

5

6

1

8

9

10

11

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

No, I did not.

Did you get that sometime after August the 1st?

Yes, I did.

And after you got it did you start to analyze it?

Yes, I did.

And that's the sample that bears the laboratory

identification number of VV-2; is that correct?


Q. When did you -- did you start to test that sample

12 on August the 2nd?

13 A. Actually started to test that on August 1st.

14 That's when I did the ABO.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

21

28

Q. Now, when was the next time you tested, you

performed any tests on A-41?

A. That would be August the 2nd, 1983.

A. And was that the Group II series of tests?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And were those the results that you posted

indicating what you got the first time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was the next time that you performed any tests

on A-41 after August the 2nd?

A. The next time was for the Gc and the Transferrin or

the Tf on October the 3rd, 1983.

Q. Now, where was that test performed?

A. That was performed in the laboratory in San


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4439

1 Bernardino.

2 Q. NOw, prior to that date, prior to October the 3rd,

3 had you conducted a series of tests on Mr. Cooper's blood, VV-2?

4

5

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

Had you, for example, completed the Group I

6 results?

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

And the Group II results?

Yes, I did.

And the serum proteins in Group III?

Yes, I did.

And the Group IV results?

Yes, I did.

And do you have those results?

Yes, sir, I did.

Were those results made available in the discovery

17 process?

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

A. Yes, they were.

Q. NOW, on the 3rd when you tested A-41 for the

Transferrin and the Gc, were you the only person present at the

time of that test?

A. No, sir, I was not.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Was there another person present?

Yes, sir, there was.

Do you happen to remember that person's name?

Yes, I do.

Who is it?

It is Dr. Edward Blake.

CCMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

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4440

o. Does he have, to your knowledge, any training or

experience in this field of Serology?

A. Yes, sir, he does.

O. NOW, is it fair to say that the group -- that the

tests, excuse me, for the Transferrin and Gc, were started on

the 3rd of October and read on the following day, on the 4th?


O. Was Dr. Blake there when the results were read?

A. Yes, he was.

O. On the 4th then was the Haptoglobin started?

A. Yes, it was.

O. Were the results of that test on A-41, just A-4l,

not read until the following day, October the 5th?

A. That's correct, yes.

O. Now, you work for San Bernardino County; is that

correct?

A. Yes, I do.

O. In the crime lab?

A. Yes, I do.

O. Does Dr. Blake work for the crime lab?

A. Excuse me. Could you repeat the question.

O. Does Dr. Blake work in your crime lab?

A. Yes, he does. Oh, excuse me. No, he does not. He

was working that day in the crime lab.

O. Is he employed by the County of San Bernardino as a

criminalist, for example?

A. No, he's not.

O. Do you know where his office is located?


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4441

A. His office is in Emeryville, California.

Q. And to your knowledge is he retained as an advisor

by anybody in this courtroom?

A. Yes, he is.

Q. who is that?

A. By the defense.

Q. NOw, was A-U, the drop of blood from the hallway

in the Ryen home, was that serological sample, was that as large

as, for example, the EDTA samples of whole blood that you worked

10 with in this case?

11

12

A.

Q.

No, sir.

And in terms of size, was it consistent with having

13 at one time been a long blood drop?

14

15

16

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. NOw, after the 5th of August, the 5th of October of

1983 -- well, Dr. Blake was there when you actually read the

17 results; is that true?

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

A. On the 4th and the 5th, yes.

Q. And was the procedure essentially that you

conducted the test?

A. Actually it was kind of a jOint effort.

Q. Between you and Dr. Blake?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And he was present when the plates actually came up

25 and were read by yourself; is that true?

26 A. Yes, sir.

27 Q. Now, in terms of quantity, the amount, if you can

28 remember, how much of A-41 was left, if anything, after you and


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4442

1 Dr. Blake performed the Haptoglobin test on October the 4th and

2 October the 5th?

3

" A.

Q.

It was a very small amount.

Let me move to another area.

5 Was it -- what was done with the remainder of the

6 Haptoglobin test?

7 A. After the Haptoglobin test, until approximately the

8 October the 17th, 1984, the remainder of the sample was placed

9

10

11

12

in the serology freezer.

Q.

A.

Q.

Was it tested again on the 17th?

October the 17th, 1984. Yes, sir.

Now, did that take -- did that test -- excuse me --

13 take place in San Bernardino County?

14

15

16

17

18 own?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

NO, it did not.

Did that take place in northern California?

Yes, it did.

Was that in a serology laboratory other than your

A. Yes, sir, it was.

Q. Were you the only other person present when A-41

19

20

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23

was tested in October of 19841

A. No, sir.

24

25

26

27

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

28 Wraxa11?

Was Dr. Blake present?

Yes, sir, he was.

Was there anyone else present?

Yes, sir.

Did that include a man that you know as Brian


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4443

A. Yes, sir, it did. 1

2 Q. The man who actually developed the system that you

3 used?

4

5

A.

Q.

Yes, sir.

Now, directing your attention to a photograph we

6 have marked for identification as 597, a very small picture,

7 three by five black and white.

S Do you know what that is a picture of?

9

10

11

A.

Q.

A.

Yes, I do.

What is it a picture of?

It is a picture of the amount of sample in A-41 on

12 July the 11th, 1984.

13

14

15

16

Q. NOW, it appears that there is some type of

container separated into two parts; .is that correct?


Q. And does one of the parts contain what at one time

17 was a portion of A-4l?

18

19

20

21

22

A. Yes, sir, it does.

Q. And as you face the photograph, is that the right

or the left container?

A. That would be the right container.

Q. Now, there appears to be some.speckles in the

23 picture on the right container, in the right container.

24 Do you know what that substance is?

25 A. well, there's some white sUbstance which is plaster

26 or paint identified as being from the hallway in the Ryen home.

27 Q. NOW, do they appear somewhat light color or whitish

28 in the photograph?


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A.

Q.

4444

Yes, they do.

When you first saw A-4l, was essentially the blood

3 that appeared to have been scraped off -- a bloodstain that

4 appeared to have been scraped off a plaster wall?

5

6

7

8

9

A. Yes, sir, it did.

Q. The chips, the specks of plaster in that picture,

were they all soaked with blood?

A. Not all of them, no.

Q. Does that depict the specks of blood that may have

10 existed in that canister after you and Dr. Blake did the testing

lIon October the 5th? Can you see some of them?

12 A. Yes. Unfortunately it is a black and white picture

13 so you can't see all of them.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

Q. Was there a large or small quantity left of A-41

after you and Dr. Blake finished with it on October the 5th?

A. It was a very small quantity.

Q. Now, what type of test was performed on the 17th of

October, 1984, in northern California on A-41?

A. The test that we did up there was a test called

isoelectric focusing, and it is a test for EAP that we tried to

distinguish whether A-4l was either a B or an RB.

Q. And is that a technique that is often used when the

sample itself is extremely small?

A. It can be used when the sample is extremely small l _

yes.

Q. Were you and Dr. Blake and Mr. Wraxall able to get

27 a result on the 17th of October when what was left of that

28 sample was attempted to be tested?


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A.

o.

4445

No, we were not. It was inconclusive.

Now, back to the chart. Something perhaps that was

3 skipped over on 589.

4 You have, for example, underneath the Gc column

5 next to Mrs. Ryen and her daughter, what look like minuses or

6 lines.

7 What does that symbol stand for?

8

9

A.

o. That means I was unable to get a conclusive result.

So, for example, on Peggy Ryen, Jessica Ryen, you

10 can't tell what their Gc type was.

11

12

A.


Directing your attention next to a chart which has

13 been marked for identification as Exhibit 596.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

Do yo~ recognize what this is a chart of?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And is this a chart which shows the serological

profiles of a number of different people?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. Is the chart similar in its outline to that of 589?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. For example, as you look at the chart, to the far

left, does the chart describe the laboratory identification

number that was assigned, for example, to that number of blood

samples?

A. Yes, it does.

o. Are these blood samples that appear on this chart

on 596, were they bloodstains or were they the whole blood

28 sample for EDTA type samples?


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2

A.

Q.

4446

Those were blood samples.

Does that column likewise reflect the name of the

3 person from whom this sample was taken?

.-5

A.

Q.

Yes, it does •

Then across, moving from left to right, have you

6 indicated, for example, the ABO types of all the persons whose

7 names appear on the chart.

8

9

A.

Q.

Yes, I have.

And did you perform all the serological analysis of

10 which the results appear on this particular exhibit?

11

12

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

For example, you did all the enzyme and serum

13 protein typing on the whole bloods of these people, the persons

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whose names appear on 596; is that true?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that all through the use of thi&

electrophoretic technique?

A. Except for the ABO, secretor status, yes, it was.

Q. And the forward and reverse test that you performed

on the ABO, excuse me, to determine the ABO from the whole

blood, was that the same procedure that you used on the victims

and defendant in this case?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. NOw, is it accurate to say that genetically it is

impossible for anyone of the persons whose names appear on 596

26 to have been the person that left A-4l at the Ryen home?

27

28

A.

Q.

That is accurate to say, yes.

For example, Rodney Parish, whose name appears on


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the bottom of the chart 596, is it biologically impossible for

Rodney Parish to have left A-4l?

A.

Q.

Mr. Balau?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

the chart?

A.

Q.

Yes, it is.

And would that likewise be true, for example, with

Yes, it is.

Mr. Knorri?

Yes.

Likewise, every other person whose names appear on

Yues.

Back again for a moment to 592.

Did you likewise conduct that serological tests on

stains other than the KAK series that were actually removed from

the inside of the Ryen house?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Would that have included a stain which was given a

laboratory identification number of L-3~ which was a stain taken

from an empty Oly Gold can found in the field between the Lease

and the Ryen home?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was there a limited quantity to that stain?

A. Yes, there was.

Q. Were you only able to perform a limited number of

tests?

A. Yes, sir, I was.

Q. What was the only test you could perform?

A. The only test I could perform that was to identify


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4448

1 it as blood, was the presumptive test. It was positive for

2 blood.

3

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Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

You indicated that on the chart; is that correct?

Yes, I did.

Now, with the other can. Did you also analyze L-4?

Yes, I did.

The stain taken from the full can of Oly Gold beer,

8 which at one time was in the refrigerator in the Ryen home

9

10

A.

Q.

Yes, sir, I did.

were you able to test the stain to determine if

11 it was blood?

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A.

Q.

A.

Yes, I did.

Was it blood?

It is blood and of human origin.

Q. So you were able to perform the ouchterlony test on

it; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now did you try to determine what the ABO blood

group type WqS of the person whose blood ended up on the beer

can?

A. Yes.

Q: Were you able to do that?

A. . NO, I was not.

Q. Did you attempt to run the Group I multisystem?

A. Yes, I did.

Q.

A.

Q.

And did you get a EsD result, for example?

No, I did not.

Were you able, however, to get a PGM result?


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4449

A. Yes, I was.

Q. with what result did you at the time?

A. I got a PGM type 2-1.

Q. Now, of the persons on the chart 589, is that PGM

result consistent with the genetic profile of anybody on the

chart?

A. Consistent just with PGM alone with Doug Ryen or

Joshua Ryen.

Q. And so there is no misunderstanding on the part of

the jury, that would also be consistent then with the genetic

profile of other persons who happened to have a 2-1 PGM type.


Q. In this case, in terms of the victims that were

attacked inside the house, it is only consistent with two of

those; is that correct?


Q. Could you step to 592, and can you put ·cw· perhaps

for consistent with, and then could you put ·Josh· or -Josh and

Doug- •


Q. Now, for example, would the presence of that stain

L-4 on the beer can, would that be consistent with either one of

those victims going into the refrigerator while they were

bleeding?

A. Yes, it would.

Q. would it also be consistent with an assailant

having on his hand the blood of either Josh Ryen or his father,

and leaving that blood on some beer when he reached in the


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refrigerator?

A.

o.

4450

Yes, it would.

Before I take this down, was there another -- was

4 there another -La series item? Specifically, I believe either

5 L-l or L-2, which you analyzed in this particular case?

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some

A.

o. A.

o. type of

A.

o.

Yes, there is.

Which number did it have.

It is an L-l.

And was that what appeared to be visually a stain,

stain?

Yes, it is.

Were you able to test the stain -- was that a stain

13 that, according to the lab notes, was taken off the head of the

14 hatchet in this case?

15

16

A.

Q.

Yes, it is. Do you want me to read them?

Were you able to determine whether the stain that

17 was on that hatchet was blood or not?

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A. Yes, I did.

o. Were you able to determine if the bloodstain on the

hatchet was human blood or not.

A. Yes, it is.

o. l'lere you able to determine the ABO type of the

human being who had his blood end up on that hatchet?

A. Yes, I did. It is ABO type B.

o. NOW, that blood then could not have come from the

26 defendant in this case.

27

28

A.

o. That is correct. Yes.

Is it consistent with coming from either of the


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five victims in the case?

A. It is consistent with coming from Joshua Ryen.

Q. Perhaps could you indicate on the chart, I notice

that has not been filled in, can you perhaps put a L-I in what

appears to be a blank column underneath L-4, and can you write

·suspected blood from hatchet-.


Q. Then can you also indicate in the appropriate

column what your result was when you tested that stain for

blood.

A. Yes, I can. (Witness complied). The test for

blood was positive.

Q. Likewise could you proceed to the next column which

is human.

A. Yes, I can. It is, according to my tests, human

blood, and it is ABO blood type consistent with a type B.

Q. Then -- and you mentioned that was consistent at

least with that, thus far, the profile of Joshua?

A. Yes.

Q. It would be consistent with Josh getting his blood

deposited on that hatchet. For example, being struck and having

Josh's bleed on to the hatchet.

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Can you indicate then over in the comment section,

·CW· for consistent with and then Josh's name.

Q. And, again, so the jury is not misled, the human

blood on that hatchet genetically could have come from persons

other than Joshua Ryen.


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Q. But it is human blood.

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Did you likewise analyze some stains that had the

laboratory identification number, the -J- series stains, on

items which were taken out of the 2991 residence, that residence

that was owned by Mr. Lease and Mr. Lang?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Directing your attention to what has been marked

for identification as Exhibit 593, appears to be another chart.

DO you recognize this particular chart?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And does this chart reflect some of the serological

results of examinations you performed in the laboratory in San

Bernardino on stains which were removed from items seized in

that 2991 residence?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. Did you remove from the serological freezer an item

which was marked for identification as J-6?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And did that appear to be a green button?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Did it have a stain on it that was consistent,

visually consistent with a blood stain?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. And did you perform some tests on that?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Was there a large stain on that button or a small


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4453

stain?

A. It was a rather small sustain.

Q. Now, were you able to test the stain to determine

whether or not it was blood?

A. Yes, I did, and it is blood.

Q. Were you also able to test the stain to determine

whether or not the stain was from a human being, or from a

reptile, or something?

A. It is human blood.

Q. Did you then perform tests to determine whether or

11 not you could determine the ABO blood group type of that

12 particular stain?

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A. Yes, I did.

Q. Were you able to do that?

A. Yes, I did. It is a ABO type A.

Q. Were you able to perform any electrophoretic tests

on which gave you a result?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What result did you get?

A. I did the Group I test and I got the EsD result

which is a type 1, the PGM result was inconclusive.

Q. Now, based on those results, based on the ABO

result and the EsD result, for example, is it true that you can

exclude various persons from the chart 589 as being the

potential donor of that stain?

A. Yes, I can.

Q. For example, that stain could not have come from

28 young Chris Hughes, could it have?


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Q.

4454

Yes, that is correct.

It likewise could have not have come from Jessica

3 or her mother?

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5

A.

Q.

That is also correct, yes.

The ABO type and the ESD type, however, is that

6 consistent with coming from one of the victims in this case?

7

8

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A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yes, it is.

Would that be Doug Ryen?

Yes.

Now, based on the limited -- is the information on

11 this chart somewhat limited?

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A. Yes, it is.

Q. Certainly not as complete as the profiles which

appear on 5891

A. Yes.

Q. And the stain which came off the green button, the

human bloodstain, Mr. Ryen is not the only person in the country

that has a profile consistent with what you've got?


Q. And, in fact, an example of another person who has

an ABO type A and an EsD type I is Mr. Cooper; isn't that

correct?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. So genetically J-6 could have come from Doug Ryen

or Kevin CooperJ is that correct?

A. Yes, it could.

Q. Or anyone else who is an ABO type A and an EsD type

28 I?


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4455

A. That is correct, yes. 1

2 Q. Could you indicate in the comment section, ·CW· for

3 ·consistent with,· and just put Doug slash Cooper?

A. (Witness complied.)

5 Q. I apologize for not having that attached a little

6 better.

1 Mr. Gregonis, directing your attention to Exhibit

8 91, which contains a pill box which apparently bears the

9 identification number of J-6, could you open it and tell the

10 jury if there's anything inside it?

11

12

A.

Q.

Yes, there is. There's a green button inside.

Was that the button that you removed the stains

13 from and tested and got the ABO A and the EsD I?

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A. Yes, it is.

Q. Was there any stain left after you performed the

tests that you've testified to with the chart for you to perform

11 further analysis?

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A. No, there was not.

Q. Likewise did you find on a rope, a nylon rope,

stains that appeared visually to be bloodstains?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Was that a white nylon rope?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you see that first in the serological

25 freezer in your crime lab in San Bernadino?

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A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

And do the notes indicate that it was a rope picked

28 up from the Lease house in the closet?


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3 blood?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

4456

Yes, it does.

Now, did you test that stain to determine if it was

A. 6 Yes, it is.

Q. 7 In addition to that, did you test the stain to

8 determine if it was human blood?

9

10

A.

Q.

Yes, and it is human blood.

Were you able to determine the ABO type of that

11 bloodstain?

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A. Yes. The ABO type was a type A.

Q. NOw, did you run the Group I systems to test for

the EsD and the PGM?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

Did you get results that you could call?

No, I did not.

And is that what the initial -I-N-C- will indicate,

A. Yes, it is.

Q. However, were you able to get some of the results

when you ran the Group II system?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. That did not include, however, the EAP results?


Q. The AK and ADA results you got, were they both type

27 I?

28 A. That is correct, yes.


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4457

1 Q. Then it appears that you also were able to conduct

2 another test.

3

4

A.

Q.

Yes.

And you were successful at least as far as the CA

5 II?

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9

A.

Q.

A.

Q.


And that was a type 1 personJ is that correct?

Yes, sir, it is.

The other tests that you ran, were you unable to

10 get a result that was conclusive?

11

12

A.

Q.


Now, based on the results you got on that stain,

13 you can exclude a number of the persons on 589 as being donors

14 of that stain, is that true?

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A. Yes, I can.

Q. That would include, for example, Josh, Chris

Hughes, Peggy Ryen, and Jessica Ryen?


Q. with the CA II results, can you also exclude the

defendant?

A. with the CA II? No, I cannot.

Q. Can you exclude him with the AK and the ADA.

A. No, I cannot.

Q. So, are we in the same position with J-9 as we were

essentially with J-6 in terms of serological results of what you

have done?

A. As far as being consistent with either Doug Ryen or

28 Mr. Cooper, yes.


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4458

1 o. So, those results, they could have come from

2 it's consistent with coming from Doug Ryen if he at one point

3 had had his blood placed on that rope?

" 5

A.

o. Yes, it is.

It's also consistent with the defendant -- with the

6 test you have done, being placed on that rope?

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o. NOw, when you finished the test that you performed

on J-9, was that stain exhausted?

A. No, it was not.

O. Was there some left?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you since you completed your work on J-9 sent

that rope to another location?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Would that be to Brian Wraxall's laboratory in

17 Emeryville, California, or Oakland, California?

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2S

A. Yes, sir.

Q. For the purpose of doing additional tests?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did not do those tests?

A. That is correct.

Q. And is it possible with additional tests,

potentially, to discriminate the possible donor of this

bloodstain further, for example, between Mr. Ryen and Mr.

26 Cooper?

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28

A. Yes, it is.

MR. KOCHIS: Could record reflect that in the comment


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4459

column next to J-9 11m going to draw a line and place ·D.G.· in

the upper part.

o. Could you step to that and indicate with simply the

results you have done up to this point, starting with the ·cw· for ·consistent with·, which persons on the chart the stain is

consistent with coming from?

A. It is consistent with coming from either Doug Ryen

or Mr. Cooper.

o. You may resume your seat again for the moment.

Now you mentioned yesterday when we started that in

this field of serology you could test body fluids other than

blood; is that correct?


Q. And did you mention that two of the other body

fluids that you could test would include saliva and semen?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. Did you test certain items in this case to

determine the presence of either one of those body fluids?

A. Yest I did.

Q. For example, did you perform some tests on a green

blanket ~hich was removed from the closet in the 2991 residence

which was assigned the laboratory identification No. J-13?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did that stain appear to you to be a bloodstain?

A. No, sir, it did not.

Q. NOW, did you perform any test on the stain itself

to deter~ine scientifically what type of stain it was?

A. Yes, I did. Itls a semen stain.


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4460

o. What did you do to determine that?

A. Okay. A couple of the tests that I did, one was a

test looking for an enzyme called acid phophatase, and that's an

enzyme which is present in very high quantities in seminal

fluid.

And there was high quantities of that enzyme

present.

O. Let me stop you there for a minute.

So you test for something that you find in semen,

and that's this acid phophatase?

A. Yes, sir.

O. And that leads you to a conclusion that the stain

on there was semen?

A. It indicates the presence of semen, yes.

O. It's an inference?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you also look at the stain under a microscope

for any purpose?

A.

Q.

A.

O.

A.

Q.

A.

O.

A.

that stain.

Yes, I did.

For what purpsoe?

For looking for spermatozoa.

And they exist in semen; is that correct?

Yes, they do.

Did you see any?

Yes, I did.

And what conclusion did that lead you to?

That there was seminal fluid and spermatozoa in


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Q. Now, is there a procedure by which you can test a

semen stain to determine what the ABO blood type is of the

person whose semen is on the blanket?

A. Yes, there is.

Q. And what was the name of that again?

A. There was duly two tests. One is called the

absorption-~other is called the absorption-elution.

Q. Did you perform either or both of those tests from

that semen stain from the blanket?

A. I perform the absorption-inhibition.

Q. And what did you determine?

A. I determined that the stain, especially with the

presence of a large quantity of semen, is consistent with what's

called a nonsecretor •

Q. NOW, was that from the inhibition test?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you then perform another test to allow you to

determine what the ABO blood type was?

A. Brian Wraxall and I did, yes.

Q. Was that an absorption-elution test?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And does that allow you to determine the ABO blood

group type in a body fluid stain from someone that is not a

secretor?

A. Yes, sir, it does.

Q. For example, to explain to the jury, putting aside

issues such as vasectomies and things of that nature, Doug Ryen

is an ABO A secretorJ is that correct?


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4462

Yes, he is.

And if the stain, the semen stain on the green

3 blanket in the Lease house came from Doug Ryen, would you get

4 evidence of that in the absorption-inhibition test?

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6

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A. Yes, you would.

Q. And you did not get that indication in this case?


Q. so, is it fair to say once you do the ABO test and

the secretor test, the absorption-inhibition and the

10 absorption-elution test, that you can exclude the possibility of

11 Doug being the one that had his semen on the green blanket?

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A. Yes, I can.

Q. Did you continue then to test that stain on the

blanket serologically to see how far you could take the profile?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Were you able to get any other results?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did they include a result in the Group I system,

specifically the second enzyme that you read, the PGM?

A. The PGM, yes. It's a type 1.

Q. And is that consistent with, for example, semen

coming from Kevin Cooper?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And likewise the ABO type, the A, that's consistent

with semen deposited by the defendant?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. The fact that the semen came from a nonsecretor,

28 that also is consistent with being deposited by the defendant?


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4463

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Were you able to get any results in either the PGM

3 sub typing or the peptidase A?

4 A. Yes, I was. The PGK subtyping is a 1+ and the

5 peptidase A, or PEPA, is a type 2-1.

6 Q. Does the subtyping that you got on J-13 match the

7 sub typing of the defendant?

8

9

A.

Q.

Yes, it does.

And likewise does the result you got from the

10 peptidase A result match the defendants peptidase A?

11

12

A.

Q.

Yes, it does.

NOW, within the results that you got on J-13 on the

13 semen stain, did you get any results in any category, any type,

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that were indicative of the person's racial heritage?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

Would that have been in the peptidase A result?

Yes.

And was that the 2-l?

Yes.

Could you perhaps circle that with a blue pen.

(Witness complied.)

Now that result alone, the 2-1 result alone, would

that also enable you to exclude as a donor Doug Ryen?

A. Yes, it would.

Q. And is that the same peptidase A type that you got

off the stain of blood in the hallway of the victims' home?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Is that also the same peptidase A type that you got


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4464

in VV-2, the sample of Mr. Cooper's whole blood?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. NOw, based on the information that you have on this

chart, on 593, are you able to determine a frequency with which

the genetic profile that appears in this stain, with the ABO,

the PGM, and the PEPA, the frequency with which this profile

would appear in the population?

A. Yes, I can.

Q. And what would that frequency be?

THE COURT: Which population?

MR. KOCHIS: Well, that's probably a good pOint.

Q. Which population do you have to turn to when you

get a peptidase A 2-l?

A. Because the peptidase A 2-1 is an indication of

black heritage, I'm looking at the black population.

Q. What frequency would you get of this profile then

in the black population?

A. It's approximately .26 percent.

Q. And in terms of a hundred or a thousand, how does

that translate?

A. 2.6 per thousand.

Q. Could you perhaps indicate that --

Well, first on the comment section, could you

indicate "Cooper", because it's consistent with Mr. Cooper, and

the frequency of that type.

A. Yes, I can.

Q. And can you also indicate after the thousand, "S·

period "H" period for black heritage.


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4465

(Witness complied.)

And then just not to overlook something which is

3 obvious, patently obvious, this, when you're talking profile,

4 this is a profile that could only have existed based on the fact

5 that it's semen being deposited by a male?

6

7

A.

Q.

Yes, sir.

C9uld you perhaps put male behind about 8B.B.8 or

8 black heritage.

9 Q. So, the -- the population that we are comparing the

10 profile to would be 2.6, or approximately three people out of

11 everyone thousand black males?

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A. Yes, sir.

Q. You may return to your seat.

So with the information that you got off that

stain, that's the same -- those are the same results you could

get off a semen stain left on the green blanket by the

defendant?

A. Yes, sir, they are.

Q. NOW, did you also perform a test on J-20, the

Viceroy cigarette butt which was removed from that home as well?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you first test the stain to determine if there

was saliva on the stain?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. HOw do you do that?

A. The test that I look for is called amylase. And

27 it's again an enzyme which is present in a high quantity in

28 saliva.


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Q.

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4466

Do you smoke cigarettes?

No, I do not.

Have you seen people smoke cigarettes?

Yes, I have.

Is one of the ways that saliva gets on the end of a

6 cigarette the fact that someone has smoked it at one time?

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Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yes, sir.

Now, did you find amylase on J-20?

Yes, I did.

And that too to you indicated what?

Indicates that there is saliva present.

Would that indicate, for example, that one at one

13 time had smoked the cigarette, had it in their mouth?

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A. Yes, it would.

Q. Now, did you attempt to determine the person's ABO

type?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Were you able to to do that?

A. No, I was not.

Q. Which which of the two tests, the

absorption-inhibition or absorption-elution did you use?

A. I used the absorption-inhibition.

Q. And did you find any antigens when you did that

test?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. Would that be then consistent with a person that

27 does not secret their antigens in a body fluid?

28 A. Yes, sir, it is.


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4467

For example, Mr. Cooper?

Yes, sir.

Now, Mr. Cooper is not the only person on the

4 chart, 589, that's a nonsecretor; is that correct?

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o. A.

o. A.

o.


For example, Chris Hughes is such a person?

Yes.

And so was Peggy Ryen's daughter, Jessica?

That is correct, yes, sir.

If Kevin Cooper had smoked that cigarette butt and

11 left his saliva behind, would the test results you got on the

12 absorption-inhibition test be the same as in fact the results

13 you got?

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A. Yes, they would.

o. And is that finding consistent with, for example,

Mr. Cooper's saliva being on the cigarette butt?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. But it's also consistent, for example, if Jessica

or Chris were old enough to smoke and they smoked; is that

correct?


Q. SO could you indicate then on the chart "CW· for

"consistent with" Cooper.

MR. NEGUS: Object. I believe on this particular one

that it's also consistent with everybody else in the world, and

I would object to that particular procedure.

MR. KOCHIS: Well, I can ask some additional.

o. Mr. Gregonis, for example, if peggy Ryen didn't


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4468

hate cigarettes and became a cigarette smoker herself and had I

left saliva on J-20, with her being a secretor performing the

absorption-inhibition test would you have expected to have found

A and B antigens?

A. Yes, I would.

O. And you found no such antigens in the

absorption-elution tests that you did on the cigarette butt?


O. And likewise if Doug Ryen happened to have been a

cigarette smoker and put his saliva on the end of that cigarette

when he had it in his mouth, would you have expected to find

doing the absorption-inhibition test A antigens in the saliva?

A. Yes, sir, I would.

Q. And you found no such antigens?

A. Tha is correct.

MR. NEGUS: Your Honor. I believe there has been

testimony, if you want to hear about this, we have had testimony

that the test that Mr. Gregonis performed and the way he

performed it is not conclusive of anything, and I think that's

what Mr. Wraxall will testify.

THE COURT: It may have little or no weight at all, sir,

but it -- your objection goes to the weight of it.

MR. NEGUS: Well, no. I think it goes to the foundation

for what -- for this particular test.

THE COURT: I will permit it. Overruled.

BY MR. KOCHIS:

O. That means you can step to the chart put "CW" and

"Cooper" on it.

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4469


THE COURT: Again, ladies and gentlemen, I don't assign

the weight to any evidence that's admitted, simply that it may

come in for whatever significance, if any, it has to you.

BY MR. KOCHIS:

Q. Now, is it fair to say that you do not know the ABO

type of the person who placed their saliva on that Viceroy

cigarette butt?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. And to do that the absorption-elution test which in

some cases may have been more sensitive would have had to have

been performed; is that correct?


Q. Were you present with Mr. Wraxall when any such

test was performed?

A. Yes, sir, I believe I was.

Q. Were you able to determine at the end of the test

whether or not -- what the ABO type was of the person whose

saliva was on that butt?

A. May I look at Py notes a minute?

Q. Yes.

A" Okay. AS far as J-20, I don't have any notes of it

so it's possible that I did not test that or was present when

Mr. Wraxall tested it.

Q. Directing your attention to another chart which has

been marked for identification as Exhibit 594; do you recognize

what this chart displays?

A. Yes, I do.

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4470

1 o. And does this display some of the serological

2 results that you obtained after you tested, in a controlled

3 setting in a laboratory, stains on items which were taken from

4 the Ryen station wagon which was eventually found in Long Beach?

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6

A.

o. Yes, sir, it does.

Did you test two cigarette butts that were taken

7 from the Ryen station wagon?

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A.

o. A.

Yes, sir.

Did they both appear to be manufactured cigarettes?

Yes, it does -- excuse me. Manufactured

11 cigarettes.

12 The V-12 is a, I believe a hand-rolled type of

13 cigarette, and V-17 is a manufactured type cigarette.

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o. NOW, did you test either one of those cigarette

butts, the one that was manufactured or the one that was

hand-rolled to determine whether or not there was saliva on it?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. When you -- when you did V-12, what did you find?

A. AS far as V-12 is concerned, I did find the

presence indication of saliva being present.

MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, would this be a convenient place

to take the recess? I need to get some exhibits.

23 THE COURT: Sure. All right.

24 We will take the noon recess. Remember the

25 admonition. Return at 1:30, please.

26 . (Noon recess taken.)

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SAN DIEGO, CALLFORNIA, WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 5. 1984 1:35 P.M ••

--00000-

THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Kochis.

DANIEL J. GREGONIS,



as follows:

11 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)

12 BY MR. KOCHIS:

13 Q. Mr. Gregonis, when we broke for lunch we were

14 talking about some of the cigarette butts that you performed

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serological tests on this case. Do you recall that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Directing your attention for a moment to an exhibit

18 we have marked for identification as 584, from which I'm going

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to remove a metal can which has been marked with your laboratory

identification number as V-12.

Is that one of the Cigarette butts that you in fact

analyzed in this particular case?

A. The remainder of it, yes.

Q. NOW, the way the contents of that can appears

25 today, is that the same ~ondition the cigarette butt was in when

26 you first saw it in the laboratory?

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28

A.

Q.

No, sir, it is not.

Does it appear that the condition of the cigarette


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4472

butt has changed between the time you first saw it and as it

exists on the witness stand today?

A. Yep.

Q. Do you know who is responsible for changing the

condition of the cigarette butt?

A. In part I am, and in part Brian Wraxal1 is.

Q. How did the form of the cigarette butt get changed?

A. Basically because the tests that we do for the

Amylase to detect saliva and also to try and detect ABO, I guess

these were taken and that portion of the paper extracted with it

with saline.

Q. Is it fair to say that today in court the V-12, the

cigarette butt, has been separated and that the tobacco has been

taken out of the paper?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is not the way it appeared when you saw it in

the lab?

A. No, sir, it did not.

" Q. Would it likewise be the situation with V-17, the

manufactured cigarette butt?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recall that happened to J-20 as well, the

cigarette butt which came out of the 2991 residence?

A. I identified it. It would be myself alone that

changed J-20 somewhat because I did the work on that.

Q. Before you took the butts apart, for example, did

you take pictures of them?

A. V-12 and V-17, yes.


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4473

1 Q. Now, directing your attention to an exhibit which

2 has been marked for identification as Exhibit 79.

3 Does that color photograph, the eight by ten color

4 photograph, depict the rope, J-9, that you tested for

5 bloodstains?

6

7

A. Yes, it does.

MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, could the record reflect that

8 also on the board we have placed Exhibit 5, the diagram of the

9 Lease house, which is partially hidden by 589. Over that we

10 have two pieces of clear plastic, well, 5-E, which is a sheet of

11 plastic which accompanied Mr. Ogino's testimony and his location

12 of certain items inside the Lease home, and then 5-G, which is a

13 sheet of plastic which Mr. Ogino is going to use during his

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testimony.

THE COURT: You mean Mr. Gregonis.

MR. KOCHIS: Mr. Gregonis, I'm sorry.

Likewise on 5-G I am going to place Mr. Gregonis

18 name, today's date, and 2991 residence to orient the jury as to

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which diagram the clear plastic applies to.

Q. Mr. Gregonis, could you join me for a moment at the

diagram, and can you locate, first of all, the approximate

location of the green button, J-6, on the diagram.

Do you see that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And you indicated that the serological results of

26 the stain to that button were consistent with the stain being

27 deposited, for example, by either the defendant or Mr. Ryen or

28 someone that had their profile?


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4474


Could you indicate -Doug/Cooper- on top of J-6.

(Witness complied).

And likewise could you locate on the diagram J-9,

5 which is the rope that's depicted in the photograph above you.

6 And I believe you testified that the serological

7 result on the stains on that rope were likewise consistent with

8 being deposited either by Mr. Ryen, Mr. Cooper or someone of

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their profile. Is that correct?


Q. Could you likewise indicate -Doug/Cooper- at that

12 location.

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Q. DO you see J-13 on the diagram?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And that was the number which corresponds to the

the green blanket which was removed from that closet?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. The serological results of that blanket indicate a

stain to that blanket as to the six people on the chart, 589,

could have only come from the defendant~ is that correct?


Q. Could you place -Cooper- then on J-13.


Q. And then likewise the results of J-20, the

cigarette butt that was taken out of the piece of furniture on

27 the diagram, that was consistent with being in Mr. Cooper's

28 mouth at one time?


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4475

I A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you indicate that perhaps on the diagram r

3 -Cooper-.

4 A. (Witness complied).

5 Q. Now r you also testified r however r that if Chris and

6 if Jessica would have been smokers r that would also be

7 consistent with corning out of their mouth as well.

8 A. That is true, yes.

9 Q. Could you perhaps then put a line and put -Chris-

10 and -Jessica-.

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16



Returning once again to Exhibit 594, the list of

items that were analyzed from the Ryen car.

You tested both the hand-rolled cigarette, the

remains of which are with us in court today, and the

17 manufactured cigarette butt to determine whether or not there

18 was any saliva on those butts; is that correct?

19

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A. Yes.

Q. The presence of saliva would be consistent with

that cigarette being smoked at one time by a person that left

their saliva on the cigarette butts?


Q. Did you find Amylase present in both your

25 serological examinations of the hand-roll~d cigarette, V-12, and

26 the manufactured cigarette, V-17?

27

28

A.

Q.

Yes r I did.

NoW, on both of those cigarettes, did you performe


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4476

1 the Absorption-Inhibition test to detect the presence of

2 Antigens?

3

4

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

Were you able to find, with that test, with the

5 Absorption-Inhibition test, Antigens on either of those

6 cigarette butts?

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A. No, I was not able to.

Q. Now, is that then consistent with a person who does

not secrete their Antigen into their body fluids?

A. Provided that there is enough saliva present, yes.

Q. Is there a test that can be performed on the saliva

12 to indicate the quantity or the amount of saliva that is present

13 on a cigarette butt?

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A. There are quantitative means, yes, of testing for

Amylase.

Q. Were those tests performed on either of the

cigarette butts in your presence?

A. At a later date, yes; they were.

Q. Initially did you do those yourself?

A. Yes, I did. However, my tests were not

specifically quantitative of -- they were semiquantitative.

Q. What type of tests are ~e talking about?

A. My test was a phaebus test. The other test that is

quantitative is called an Amylase Diffusion test.

Q. Did you perform the phaebus test on both the

handled-rolled and manufactured cigarette butt?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did the results indicate that there was, for


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4477

1 example, enough Amylase there for you to draw the inference that

2 saliva was there?

3

4

A.

Q.

Yes.

NOw, at a later time, were additional tests

5 performed on both of those cigarette butts, V-12 and V-17?

A. 6 Yes, they there were.

7 Is that using the Absorption-Elution method? Q.

9

10 yours?

A.

Q. lias that performed in a laboratory other than

11 Yes. A.

Q. 12 Were you present during those tests?

A. 13 I was present during part of the tests, yes.

Q. 14 which tests were you present during?

A. 15 The initial Amylase testing, plus part of the

16 Absorption-Inhibition and the Absorption-Elution test.

17 Q. \"ere you, for example, present when the

18 Absorption-Elution test was completed on the manufactured

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cigarette butt, V-17?

A. I don't remember whether I was present when it was

completed, no.

Q. Were you present when a determination was made as

to the ABO blood type of the person who deposited saliva on

V-17?

A. Again, I'm not sure whether I was -- specifically I

was present at the laboratory.

Q. Dropping down then to the ·w· series of items, W-l

28 through W-5, leaving out for a moment W-4.


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4478

I Did you test certain stains that were collected by

2 your laboratory and assigned those identification numbers to

3 determine if in fact they were blood?

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5

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

And did your test results lead you to the

6 conclusion that all four stains W-l, 2, 3 and 5 were blood?

7

8

9

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Were you able to test those stains further to

determine if in fact they were human blood or blood from a

10 reptile or something else?

11

12

A.

Q.

They were are all human blood.

And were you able to obtain any additional

13 information from anyone of those stains?

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A. The only other information that I was able to get

was from W-3, and that I found both the A and the B Antigen

present.

Q. That was then the stain that apparently was removed

from the driver's door of the station wagon, the Ryen station

wagon?


Q. And you were able to determine from your testing

that the person whose blood that was, was what we call a ABO

type AS; is that correct?


Q. That result was consistent with the human blood of

two of the victims in this case1 is that true?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And would that be Mrs. Ryen and her daughter,


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Jessica?

A. Yes.

Q. So the results on that portion of the car would be

consistent with either Mrs. Ryen or her daughter actually

bleeding at that location onto the car?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Or an assailant who had the blood of either Mrs.

Ryen or her daughter getting into the car and leaving some of

that blood behind?

A. Yes, it is.

MR. KOCHIS: I have nothing further at this time.

THE COURT: Mr. Negus.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. Mr. Gregonis, the education and background for your

particular position that you spoke about, has this case been

part of that educational process?

A. I think any case is an education of -- I mean, the

more cases that you do the more you learn.

Q. HOW about this particular one?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. DO you know a lot now that you didn't know when you

started?

A. I have learned quite a bit from this case, yes.

Q. Involved in this particular case have there been

people with considerably more experiences and education than

yourself, who you have talked about the different procedures and


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results, analysis thereof?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. wraxall, you have mentioned, he certainly has

more experience than yourself; is that correct?

A. Yes, he does.

Q. And Dr. Blake has both more experience and more

education than yourself?

A. I don't know about Dr. Blake's experience. I would

assume since he's been at it longer than I have he would have,

but he's got more education than I do, yes.

Q. And there was also a Dr. George Sensabaugh that you

received some input from in this case; is that right?

A. Myself? Not specifically, no. I believe he was

called as a prosecution witness.

Q. Was that at your recommendation?

A. I believe it may have been, yes.

Q. You didn't talk to Dr. Sensabaugh about any of

these particular things?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Well, have you taken various of your results to

other people and asked them to comment on them?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. For example, the, the Haptoglogin test that you did

on the drop, on the blood, A-41, did you preserve the actual

test? That is, preserve the results of the tests, not just in

the photographic form, but the actual plate itself?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And did you take that plate up and did you show


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4481

1 that plate to Brian Wraxall?

2 A. I believe I may have showed it to him possibly down

3 in the laboratory in San Bernardino.

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Q.

A.

Q.

Wherever, you did show it to him: is that right?

I believe so, yes.

And he looked at the plate, and he wasn't able to

7 confirm for you that in fact the A-4l was what you said it was?

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MR. KOCHIS: Objection, that would call for hearsay, this

statement of another person.

THE COURT: What's the hearsay purpose, Mr. Negus?

MR. NEGUS: The normal type of thing that an expert would

12 rely on. He's testified he has~relied upon the opinions of

13 Mr. Wraxall in this case.

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THE COURT: But not that particular one. You to have lay

a better foundation.

MR. NEGUS: Well, I mean --

THE COURT: The general methodology perhaps, but I don't

recall him saying he relied upon Mr. Wraxall's consultation on

that particular slide.

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. Did you rely on Dr. Wraxall? Well, not Dr.'

wraxall, Mr. Wraxall.

A. That is correct, yes.·

Q. Did you rely on Mr. Wraxall's consultation as far

as your testimony about Haptoglobin is concerned?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Why not?

A. Basically because the plate and the photograph


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were -- first of all, the photograph was not going to pick up

everything off the plate, and the plate itself is degraded to

the point where it is not in its original condition. So, I

believe Dr. Wraxall, or Mr. Wraxall, excuse me, was not able to

make a call off of it for those reasons.

Q. Well, why did you show him the -- why did you show

him the plate then to begin with? Was it to try and get advice

from him?

A. Just to see what his opinion would be of that

stain.

Q. So, the fact that he was not able to confirm your

opinion was of no, no account to you?

A. For reasons stated, because it was not in the

original condition, yes.

Q. You mentioned that you can get more information

from looking at the actual plate itself than you can from a

photograph.

Is there anything particularly difficult about

photographing a Haptoglobin gel?

A. It is not difficult to photograph it. However,

with any photograph you are not going to pick up what's actually

on the plate, I mean, everything that's on there.

Q. But, what color is the -- what color is the gel

that you see when you look at the Haptoglobin run?

A. Well, the banding patterns themselves?

Q. The gel.

A. Well, the gel is pretty much clear. It may have a

blue color from the solution I developed the Haptoglobin with.


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4483

Q. Okay. And what color are the bands?

A. They're anywhere, depending on the time, they are

anywhere from a dark blue-green color to a brown color.

Q. Is it a dark brown color?

A. It can be.

Q. In terms of photography, as far as getting an image

that shows what you have on the gel, what you want to make sure

of is the contrast in your gel; is that right?

A. That is true.

Q. You can't ask for much more contrast than a light

gel with dark colored bands.

A. It does give it a pretty good contrast, yes.

Q. Then I take it that you have experimented with

various photographic filters in order to enhance whatever

contrast is on the gel; is that right?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. So, as far as your photographs are concerned, it

certainly is not very difficult to get a nice high contrast

photograph of the Haptoglobin.

A. Again, it is not difficult. However, you are still

not going to pick up everything that is on that gel.

Q. Well, what -- in the the Haptoglobin photo, did you

show that to Dr. Wraxall, too?

A. I don't remember whether I did or did not.

Q. Of the photo, the photo that you took about the

Haptoglobin of A-41, does that show what's missing from that

photo that you saw there when it was before you and Ed Blake in

the lab?


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4484

1 A. Basically it is, I guess, if you would say the

2 contrast in the darkness of the band that I am actually seeing

3 in the photograph as opposed to actually on the plate.

4 o. So there is more contrast on the plate than there

5 is in the photograph?

6

7

8

9

10

A. I would say so, yes.

o. Is there anything on the plate that doesn't appear

in slightly less contrast on the Haptoglobin photograph? Any

missing bands?

A. I don't believe so. But I did not do a comparison

11 directly from the photograph to the plate at that time, so I

12 can't tell you for sure.

13 o. Isn't that the point of doing it with the Polaroid

14 so you can do that?

15

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27

A. I don't generally compare the photographs

immediately to all the plates that I do.

Q. Well, that particular photograph, that was, that

was the only run that you and Ed were doing on that at that

particular time; is that right.


Q. And I suppose that at that point in time nobody

knew what the Haptoglobin results of A-41 were going to be; is

that right?


O. It is of major interest.

A. Yes.

O. And the photographic process was likewise of some

28 major interest, was it not?


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date,

A.

Q.

did Ed

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

4485

It is to preserve the results, yes. However, since

The particular procedure that you used on that

tell you how to do it?

No, he did not.

Had you ever done it before?

Yes, I did.

In case work?

Yes.

How many times?

Probably analyzed around a hundred stains and

12 possibly fifty unknown or standard bloods.

13 Q. How many actual Haptoglobin runs, using that

14 particular technique that you used on October 4th and 5th, 1983,

15 had you done prior to this case work, prior to that date?

16 How many times have you set up your machine?

17

18

19

20

21

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25

A. Probably I would say 20 to 25 times.

Q. Isn't it a fact that you didn't go into routine

work with Haptoglobin in your laboratory until after that time?

A. As far as routine on every -- as many cases as

possible, no, that is a fact.

Q. Did Ed help you take the picture?

A. No, he did not.

Q. When you -- when you changed your mind about what

Acid Phosphatase type Mr. Cooper was -- first of all, when did

26 you change your mind?

27 A. Basically after doing some work on seeing what an

28 RB actually does look like on my. system. Seeing what --


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4486

Q. Just when. What date, month?

A. I don't have a date on that. I can't remember.

Q. August, 1984, sound right?

A. That is a possibility, yes.

Q. And was that after consulting people who had more

experience and education than yourself about Mr. Cooper's blood?

A. In part, along with --

Q. Just answer the questions and then --

THE COURT: I don't think he had finished, counsel. In

part along with something else. You have got to give him a

chance to fully answer.

MR. NEGUS: I think that was a full answer. He said in

part. what other things we can get to later. If I don't get

it, Mr. Kochis can bring them out. But I think that was a full

answer to the question.

THE COURT: The way your questions are phrased, I think

the question just calls for part of the reasons.

MR. KOCHIS: Well, your Honor, I'd object to Mr. Negus

cutting the witness off and not allowing the witness to give a

complete answer. If he asked a question which calls

THE COURT: There is nothing pending right now, Mr.

Kochis.

Go ahead, sir.

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. When you changed your mind, was that after you

received a phone call from Mr. Kochis about Ed Blake'S analysis

of Mr. Cooper's blood?

A. I am not sure if I learned it from Mr. Kochis or


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not, but it was after I learned of Mr. Cooper actually being an

RB, yes.

o. So, after you -- if you learned from some source

other than yourself Mr. Cooper actually was an RB, then you went

back and changed your mind; is that correct?

A. No, that is not correct.

O. Certainly -- how many times before -- well, let me

just back-up.

When was it that you that you changed your mind

about A-41? Was that after you learned that Mr. Cooper didn't

match your original call of A-4l?

A. Well, it was after, basically after I learned what

an RB looks like on my system: after I learned where the R or

the diagnosis area for an R is, and after calling several

experts, in particular Jim White.

I also talked to some people. I don't think I

can --

O. You have answerd the question.

Did you change your mind about A-4l after you

learned that if your original call was accurate, A-41 couldn't

have come from Mr. Cooper?

A. Not immediately, no. But it was after.

A. Yes.

O. Prior to your learning that if your original call

about A-41 was correct, then it couldn't have come from Mr.

Cooper, how many times did you testify on the witness stand,

under oath, that A-41 was a B and nothing else but a B1

A. It is probably about three times.


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4488

What is blind testing?

Blind testing is something where you do not know

3 anything about the sample and then you proceed to test it and

4 give the results and compare those to standards or something

5 else after you have done all the testing.

6 Q. When you tested A-41 in June and August of 1983,

1 were you -- were you trying to test it blind?

8

9

A.

Q.

Up until the end of June, yes.

Prior to doing any enzyme testing on A-41, did you

10 learn from a serologist in Pennsylvania by the name of Walter

11 Lawrence that he had information which made him believe that Mr.

12 Cooper was a PEPA type 2-1 and a PGM type l+?

13 A. I think that that information came to me after I

14 had done the EsD and PGM along with after doing the ABO.

15

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Q. When was it that you got that information?

A. I don't know specifically. I believe it may have

been after June the 14th, somewhere between June the 14th and

June the 29th.

Q. IS it possible it was prior to June the 14th?

A. I don't remember it that way, but it's possible

that it was.

Q. How come you don't know what the Gc types of the

victims are?

A. Simply because I tested their bloods at too late a

date to pick them up. Gc is very labile, it goes away quick, if

you will.

Q. Why did you wait so long?

A. Basically I was not doing the Gc routinely at the


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4489

time that would have been good to pick those up.

Q. How come you don't know Chris haptoglobin type?

A. Again, the same thing. There is just -- did not

get a good result to call them.

Q. Is that because you weren't doing haptoglobin

routinely at that point in time when you first got the sample?


Q. with respect to your analysis of Kevin's blood, the

sample VV-2, I take it that at this point in time there's as

long as Kevin gives a sample of blood there's no problem, any

serologist in the world can come back and check your results; is

that right?


Q. Same with Josh?


Q. But for -- and I suppose that same for some of the

various and sundry people that you all have included in your

rest of the world chart, Exhibit 596; is that correct?

A. Hopefully for all of them.

Q. But for -- for all of the other -- all of the other

evidence in this particular case, is that any longer true?

A. Not for all of it, no.

Q. For some of the -- for some of the evidence you've

tried to do everything that science, or at least serologists

currently know how to do in order to keep the samples from

degrading; is that right?


Q. Other that you have testified about today, that


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4490

hasn't been done, correct?

A. That is correct. It's being done at the current

3 time.

4

5

6

Q.

A.

Q.

But it wasn't done from the beginning?

That is correct, yes, not with all the samples.

And you basically can't go back and recoup what

7 you've lost by ignoring it at the beginning; is that right?

8

9

A.

Q.


Now, with respect to the -- to each of these tests

10 that you performed, the tests are not like looking at something

11 under a microscope in the sense that every time you do one of

12 these tests you consume, use up a portion of your sample; is

13 that right?

14

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26


Q. And -- I mean, that's a common problem with samples

of blood or other body fluids that are involved in the evidence

of crime; is that right?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. There's rather extensive literature dealing with

about how to try and maximize the information that you can get

from any particular sample; is that right?


Q. As far as the actual work that you did when you

were consuming the samples in your analysis, did you at all

stages of your work attempt to do those tests which would use

the least amount of sample for the maximum amount of

27 information?

28 A. Not in all cases, no.


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4491

1 Q • A-41, was that one of the cases where you didn't

2 maximize the information for the least amount of sample?

3 A. As I know it now, that is true. However, since I

4 thought that I was going to be able to run all my systems on it

5 from the beginning I wasn't too worried about what order I was

6 going to do it in.

7 Q. And you weren't too worried about saving enough

8 left over so that somebody else could go back and check your

9

10

11

work when you started out, right?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Did you waste any of A-41 and get no information in

12 return?

13 A. I believe there's two points of A-41 which could

14 have been different -- done differently to get more information,

15

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and that is I ran the Group II test with a smaller amount trying

to conserve a sample on June the 28th, 1983, which I was enable

to get the EAP or the AK type.

Q. So, that was sort of a waste?

A. It turned out to be, yes.

Q. Any other sample that was wasted?

A. Also I redid the ABO. I first did it on June the

12th, 1983, and I did it again on June the 29th, 1983.

Q.

right?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Your original results were clear and unambiguous

They seemed to be, yes.

So that was a waste to be doing it?

As you look at it now, yes.

Did it appear to be a waste as you looked at it


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1 then?

2 A. well, after reviewing it, yes.

3 Q. Did you -- did you unnecessarily fail to preserve

4 us adequate photographs of those parts of your analysis of A-41

5 which could be photographed?

6 A. I tried to photograph to the best of the

7 laboratory's and the best of my abilities those photographs from

8 A-4l, so I disagree with that question.

9 Q. Let's just start out, when you -- when you

10 photographed the first thing that -- the first thing that you

11 did that could be photographed was your Group I test that you

12 did on June the 13, 1983; is that right?

13

14

A.

Q.

That is true, yes.

You got a photograph -- you took two different

15 photographs, one of the erterase D and one of the PGM?

16

17

A.

Q.


Did you bother to look at either of those

18 photographs to see if they came out when you -- when you did it?

19

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A. As with all the photographs that I use, I make sure

that a what is on the plate or essentially the exposure is

correct.

Q. But did you look to see whether it was -- the image

that you got was such that another serologist could come back an

check your work?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. Both of the photographs that you took on June the

27 13th of the Group I are not of sufficient quality due to one

28 technical problem or the other for you to -- for another


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4493

serologist to check your work, is that right?


Q. Is it your position that the haptoglobin photograph

is not of sufficient quality for another serologist to check

your w'ork?

A. Not entirely, no. I have shown it to other people

and they seemed to agree with me as far as the result.

Q. Do they tell you that you it would be a 1, 2-1M, or

a 2-1, you can't really tell from the photographs?

A. One person that I know that I showed it to told me

that it was a 2-lM.

Q. Who was that?

A. That was a Barbara Johnson from the L.A. Sheriff's

Office.

Q. How about anybody that you showed it to, did they

tell you can't tell between a 2-1 and a 2-lM?

A. Not that I recall, no.

Q. Mr. Wraxall?

A. Again I do not recall his statements about the

photograph or the plate.

Q. Jim White?

A. Did not show it to Jim White.

Q. And let's see, I think you've testified today that

at least in your opinion now the Group II photos, at least as

far as the acid phophatase, won't tell us anything between

whether you were right the first time or not?

A. They basically tell me that its either a B or an

RB. It doesn't differentiate between the, two.


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Q. And your explanation was that it was a technical

fault on your part, you made a mistake?

A. Essentially, yes.

Q. The -- How about the CA -- the CA II result on

A-4l, can you tell us from the photograph whether that's any

good or not?

A. NO, you cannot.

Q. Well, leaving aside the ADA and the AK which --

Well, basically ADA and AK don't discriminate

between hardly anybody, is that right? There is' over 90 percent

of the -- any population, has the same type as all the victims

and Mr. Cooper and all the other people involved in the case as

far as ADA and AK is concerned; is that right?


Q. SO leaving aside those two that don't tell us much,

is it fair to say that you only preserve an adequate record for

another serologist to come back and check of two, the

transferrin and the peptidase A?

A. As far as photographs, yes.

Q. And the only thing besides photographs that you

preserved was the piate in the transferrin and the plate in the

haptoglobin, right?

A. Along with my notes on the actual run itself.

Q. But you can't tell, your notes are just numbers, we

can't tell whether you're right or wrong about that, right?


Q. I mean, if your notes are right, then A-41 we know

for sure didn't come from Kevin Cooper?


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4495

A. My notes indicate that it's either a B or an RB.

Q. That's not what you originally wrote down, is it?

A. That is correct.

Q. That's something you changed in the course of time,

your original notes that you read.

When you were reading off the plate when it was at

the optimum advantage, if did your notes are correct thenA-41

is not correct?

A. Well, using the same argument as my original notes,

my original call on VV-2 the blood sample from Cooper was also.

Q. I'm just talking about A-4l, pleas~. The question

I'm asking, if your original notes, if A-4l is correct, did not

come from Kevin, r~ght?

A. If A-4l is actually a B, then it could not have

come from Mr. Cooper.

Q. And you wrote down on August 3rdi 1983, when you

read it off the plate when you had the maximum advantage -B-,

straight B, right?

A. That is correct.

Q. So, when we're relying on your notes, that's what

we got, right, what you saw at that point in time?

A. If you're only looking at A-41, yes.

Q. As far as the proficiency that it takes to be a

forensic serologist,' the actual techniques of plugging up the , ..

machine, preparing the samples, running the test, putting on the

dyes or the stains, whatever you want to call them, that sort of

thing, that particular those particular techniques are such

that you don't have to be a Ph.D in biochemistry in order to do


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4496

it correctly~ is that right?


Q. You don't even have to have the training that you

4 have~ is that right?

5 A. Not all my training, no, but you definitely have to

6 have some of it.

7 Q. Okay. But it doesn't take any real knowledge of

8 biochemistry or anything of that nature to actually run the

9

10

11

test?

A.

Q.

No, it does not.

Interpreting the test, however, is another matter,

12 is that correct? It takes considerable amount of training and

13 experience.

14

15

16

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A. Takes definitely more training and experience to

interpret the test, yes.

Q. And as far as A-4l is concerned, at least today,

with the exception of the transferrin and the peptidase A and

perhaps Ed Blake's perceptions about the haptoglobin, the

accuracy of our knowledge about A-4l depends upon the accuracy

of your perceptions: is that correct?


Q. Before today you have testified at least ten days

in this particular case, is that reasonable?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Have you gone over that testimony in transcript

form after you gave it from the witness stand?

A. Somewhat, yes.

Q. Did you note whether or not any of your testimony


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demonstrated any incorrect perceptions about the biochemistry

which is involved in interpreting these particular tests?

A. Not as a whole, no.

Q. I mean, did you make a lot of mistakes?

A. No.

Q. Did you make some?

A. I made some different answers which may be

interpreted differently depending on the phrase of your

question.

Q. Mr. -- Dr. Sensabaugh has written many articles,

has he not, about mistakes of interpretation that analysts can

make in looking at plates; is that correct?


Q. And at least as to some of those, you read and

studied those?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. To your knowledge, did your testimony about the

various things you have to watch for in order to make a correct

interpretation contradict those things that you've read from Dr.

Sensabaugh?

A. Not to my knowledge, no.

There are -- there were -- there is some confusion

as to one thing in particular, the deamidation reactions which

happen to PGM in particular, but I believe that was made clear

at a later time.

Q. That's the only thing that you can recall?

A. That I can recall,

Q. Did you -- did you ever see Mr. Wraxel1's advise


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about the methods that you used in analyzing the various

cigarette butts that you looked at in this case?

A. Yes, we did.

4498

Q. Did he tell you that your conclusions were not --

were not sustained by your data?

MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, I would object. That's going to'

call for hearsay.

THE COURT: It's a good objection.

BY MR. NEGUS: :~~~~

Q. Did you take into account in your opinions here

today in court Mr. Wraxell's opinions that he expressed to you?

A. Somewhat, yes.

Q. Is that opinion that your original conclusions as

to the cigarette butts were not supported by your data?

A. I would say as far as his conclusions what he draw

drew and the reasons for drawing them.

My conclusions are definitely weakened because he

is looking at a quantative type of analysis where I was looking

at what I would term a semiquantitative.

Q. Let's -- Let's get down to specifics for just a

second.

On the cigarette butt, J-20, you can -- your --

your particular testing procedure was such that you were able to

determine that there was saliva on that cigarette butt, right?


Q. And that when you did the absorption-inhibition

test you didn't get any information~ is that right?

A. I got no antigens present, that is correct.


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4499

1 Q. NOw, the -- you used the word, I think you said

2 that that result was consistent with Mr. Cooper having smoked

3 the cigarette: is that right?

4

5

A.

Q.

Yes, it is.

You don't know what my blood type secretor status

6 are whatsoever: is that correct?

7

8

9

10

A. That is correct.

Q. It's just as consistent with my having smoked a

cigarette as Mr. Cooper, is it not, based on your information?

A. Not knowing what your blood types and stuff are,

11 that is correct, yes.

12 Q. It's consistent with being a secretor or

13 nonsecretor?

14

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27

A. It's more consistent with being a nonsecretor.

Q. What do you mean "more consistent-?

A. Basically I found amylase, which by my

semiquantitative test, if you will, is at least a medium amount

of amylase present, and I did not find any antigens.

Q. Is this simply -- quantative, is that a new word

that's come into your description of your testing procedures for

today's testimony?

A. It may be in court today, but it's something that

I've used before.

Q. Did you ever say that you didn't try and reach any

quantitative result about the amount of saliva present

whatsoever?

A. Not -- Well, not by Mr. Wraxell's method, no, that

28 is correct.


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4500

1 o. Well, basically isn't it a fact that merely

2 demonstrating that there's saliva present doesn't tell you

3 whether or not you should get a you will necessarily get a

4 positive result from a secretor on a cigarette butt test, is

5 that right?

6

7

A.


So basically you have no way of knowing from your

8 particular testing techniques as to J-20 whether or not it was

9 smoked by a secretor, and there was not enough left there to --

10 to get a test result it was smoked by a nonsecretor, there is

11 not enough left there to get a test it was smoked by a

12 nonsecretor, and the reason that there is not enough there is

13 because he is a nonsecretor, can't tell any of those different

14

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possibilities, right?

A. Not absolutely, no.

Q. SO, basically as far as what you did to this date

on J-20. you can't exclude a single person on the face of this

earth as being the person that smoked that cigaret~e.

A. Given your basis that if there was not enough there

to give me a result, yes.

O. And you have no way of knowing whether there was or

there wasn't, right?

A. Only from my past experience with cigarette butts

and the amount of amylase and the phaedebas amylase test.

Usually when I get -- or I cannot recall getting a positive

amylase which I did not term a weak amylase test where I had a

27 secretor that did not give me results.

28 O. But you've never done a systematic study of that.


II U

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4501

1 And Mr. Wraxa11, who has studied more systematically than

2 yourself. disagrees, right?

3 A. He would definitely put a quantative test in there,

4 yes.

5 Q. And he states flat out that based on what you did,

6 could have been anybody in the world?

7 A. Okay. As far as J-20. I don't know what his

8 opinion would be on that.

9 Q. Well. you did the exact same thing with respect to

10 V-12 and V-17, did you not?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. And when you finished your analysis, before he

13 helped you out the situation was that anybody in the world at

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that point in time when you finished could have smoked the

cigarette butts, right?

A. I believe that's essentially what Mr. Wraxell would

say, yes.

Q. Well. did you take the cigarette butts up to have

him do further testing on it because he had more experience and

knowledge and -- about that than yourself?

A. Partly, and also because he had different

techniques than myself.

Q. After you had used up -- when you -- when you

tested the cigarette butts you used up the -- the portion of the

cigarette butts that were most likely to be informative: is that

right?

A. I used up the portion of the cigarette butts that

28 were -- most likely would have the largest quantity of saliva on


"r, u

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' .....

4502

1 them, yes.

2 Q. Okay. That would be the most likely to be

3 informative?

4 A. If you are looking for a large quantity of saliva,

5 yes.

6

7

8

Q.

A.

Q.

That's what you were looking for, was it not?

Yes.

After you used up the best portion of the cigarette

9 butts, you and Mr. Wraxell were unable to come to any conclusive

10 determinations as to the that -- as to the secretor status of

11 the person that smoked the cigarette; is that right?

12

13

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Q. Had you not -- had you not used up the sample doing

your your particular test, most likely we would have been

able to know that; is that correct?

A. I can't say whether that's true or not. I don't

know how much --

Q. How much you used up?

A. Well, how much? I don't know whether there would

have been a sufficient quantity for Mr. Wraxell to make his

conclusions.

Q. Would you say that the odds of our knowing the

answer to that would have been significantly increased?

MR. KOCHIS: Objection. That would call for speculation

if we're talking about odds.

THE COURT: He has given probabilities on other methods

before. It's a matter of his expertise. Overruled.

THE WITNESS: I think there would have been a better


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4503

chance of getting more information out of it, yes.

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. Was that one of the things that you learned during

the course of this particular case?

A. Yes, it is.

MR. NEGUS: I need to get some paper up, your Honor,

maybe we could -- it's just about the right time.

THE COURT: Sure. All right. We will take the afternoon

recess.

Remember the admonition.

(Recess taken.)

THE COURT: Please continue, counsel.

CROSS EXAMINATION (Resumed)

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. Directing your attention to a piece of paper on the

board behind you, which I'm putting a sticker, on which says

Exhibit 598.

If you could get one of the colorful Sharpies, I'd

like to, as far as, as far as your analysis of A-41 is

concerned, just to put, make a sort of a time line.

The actual putting of that little tin box that we

had the picture of up here into the freezer, was that done by

yourself or somebody else?

A. That was done orginally by Mr. Stockwell.

Q. Okay. So, on June the 9th then, did you go to the

freezer and get it out?


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A. Yes, I did.

Q. Okay. And on that date you said you did the

ortho-tolidine test on the, on that particular, on that

particular sample.

A. Yes, I did;

Q. Could you put then up here "6-9-, O-Tol-.


Q. NOW, that happens to be your abbreviation for

ortho-tolidine that you use in your notes: is that right?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. On that particular date, when you did the

4504

ortho-tolidine test, do you, do you have to do anything to the

sample in order to do that particular test?

A. Well, you have to take an extremely small quantity,

put it on a filter paper and then add the reagent to the filter

paper.

Q. Okay. When you did that, do you have like all the

different, all the different containers that you had to analyze

out on the table together, and go one by one, or how do you work

that out?

A. I basically analyze one sample at a time, and just

open the container, do the test and then close the container and

go to the next sample.

Q. So, you get them, you get them all out, open one at

a time and close it?

A'. If Ilm analyzing more than one at a time, yes.

Q. On June the 9th you were doing a whole slew of them

for ortho-tolidine; is that right?


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A.

Q.

4505

Yes, I did, yes.

Then the next time, June 9th, was a Thursday, is

3 that correct?

4

5

A.

Q.

I have no idea.

At that point in time were you working weekends on

6 this particular case?

7 A. I don't know if that's when I started working

8 weekends. I'm not sure.

9 Q. You certainly have since, but at least the

10 beginning you don't remember doing it: is that right?

11

12

A.

Q.

Not the beginning, no.

Then next, on June the 12th, if we have a calendar

13 for '83, I think that the record would reflect that is in fact a

14 Sunday.

15

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18

19

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26

A. Well, if the 5th was a Sunday, correct.

Q. Here we go. We just happen to have, Mr. Bailiff, a

1983 calendar.

So, the 12th being a Sunday, on the 12th you did

come in and do some more work on this particular case; is that

right?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And that was the day that you did the test for

human species and it is two tests that you do in order to

determine the ABO type of a particular substance.


Q. SO, could you put -6-12-83- and then, let's see.

27 Well, the abreviation that -- what abreviation do you use for

28 the species test?


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5 than

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A.

o. A.

o.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

4506

I use a small -ppt-.

Okay. That's stands for precipitin.

Yes.

That's another name for that particular test other

That is a more general name, yes.

So could we put -6-12-83- and then -ppt-.

(Witness complied).

And then -- the two tests that you did on the dry

10 blood samples or ABO 1 you used the Ab-EI abreviation. The

11 other one you use Lattes?

12

13

14

15

16

17

A.

Q.

A.

o. A.

Q.

Lattes, yes.

L-a-t-t-e-s?

Yes, sir.

So could you put those along there as well.

On that Sunday again you did a whole slew of divide

18 of those different tests for different samples; is that right?

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

you do

first?

time.

A.

Q.

the

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

Then on your procedure on that particular date, did

ones to determine what species you are dealing with

I really don't know. It may have been at the same

Okay. HOW did you, how did you handle that?

Do you just -- let's just focus in on A-4l. Did

27 you just take a little chip of blood out and use that, or did

28 you prepare it in some way?


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61942583500 PAGE 02

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4507

AI far a& the species, that 18 wbat you are talking

Did you do it separately?

The species and the Absorption-Elution and the

5 Latta ••

o. I think 1 am getting -- 8lowing down 1ft the

7 afternoon..

8 On June the 12th, let's just be mote concrete. the

9 first thing you 90 back to the freezer and get the little

10 container out again.

11

12

A.

Q.

That 1s true, ye ••

You put it back there on June the 9th vben you got

13 through with it.

l' IS

16

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25

A. That is correct.

O. And then when you were. when you weee getting a

little bit on your filter paper you just basically have to dab

the filter paper against some little speck of blood and it picks

it uPCi9ht, and that's all you need do to the ortho-tolldine

teat?

A. Basically. yes.

O. Now, the test that -- your diagnosis on the 12tb

they require more samples than by just I guess the dab and cub

method ..

HoW did you get that sample out of that container?

A. Wp.ll, t would have at that time, basIcally the type

26 of ~~mplp ~hat this was in a scraping like a powder or flakes of

27 blood. so [ si~plY would have done two. Either with a sDall

28 spatula. pOssiblY an e!qhth of an inch ac~osa. and with a pair

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4508

of tweelers. 1 ~ould have extracted it with tho8e.

O. Okay. Would you have taken just a8 mucb as you

needed for those two, for the species test, or enougb for the

species and the ABO teGt or. you know, ~bat ~uantlty of sa_pte

you were extractIng at that point in time?

A. Okay. As tar as what I would have taken for each

7 of those individual tests, flest of all, 11m taking tbree

8 different samples for each of those testa.

9

10

o. A.

Okay.

As far as the quantities ar~ concerned~ the latter

11 is perhaps a third of what is required for tbe

12 Absorption-Elution, and the Ab-El up there, and the precipitin

13 is approximately I guess two-thirds to a third of what'S

14

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2. 25

26

27

required of the Absorption-Elution.

O. Well, r'm just trying to get a concrete idea of

what you do ..

When you do these tests, are you using chips, or

are you usIng a solution1 What is the physical form that the

blood is 1n when you are doing it1

A. For the Lattes -- well, the beginning is obviously

chips or scrapings or powder, depending on what condition the

blood is in. oc depending on what tests I'm doing.

The Lattes, using the chips themselves, and the

precipitin and Absorption-Elution use an e~tract. In other

words. 1 put Moisture on it, get the blood into solution aqaln

since it is dried, and use that.

Q. Okay. NOW, when you prepared the solution, do you

28 prepare just enough for one individual test, or do you prepare a

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1 Golution that you can U8~ in a whole bunch of different tbtn981

2 A. Basically wha~ I'll do with th~ sample, 1 will take

3 411 ~he 8~pl.s out, prepare the samples dry in individual

f tubes, and ~heD go from there. And it 18 indlviduel samples.

5 I think what you are getting et is do I take one

, extract and uap. it for three different tests? NO, I do not.

7 o. SO each different test then is & separate extract?

8 A.

9 o. 10 A.

That is correct, yea.

What do you do wi tb the leftover,' if there is any?

Basically, I'll use it for another test if there is

11 A lef~over ~amp1e ready. But normally I usually know tbe amount

12 that Lc requlrQd, and I will put only a minimum aMount in there.

13

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~5

o. Ac you were workinq"on the the 12th, are you also

do1n9 -- wore you al~o doin~ like known whole bloods from the

victimc in tha same ~@n~ral time frame?

A. I did ~om@ analysis on the victims blood on June

the 12th, 1993, yes.

O. FOr th~ victims who died, when did you knov the

reaul~a of all of th~ir ABO typeS?

A. This would be on the I knew soroe of them on the

8th, another one on th~ 12th, and another one on the 15th.

Q. Who wa~ it that y.ou knew on the 15th?

A. Okay. AS far a~ Douq RYen's blood, t knew some of

his information on the 8th. t ran the reverse test from his

blood on the 15th. so, that would be ooug Ryen's.

2ti O. Okay. so, at least you had -- by the 12th then you

27 bad at least an indication AS to all four of the victims who

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4510

A. That is ttue, yea.

Q. While you were dOing A-41', vere you alao at the

same time dOing other samples that Mr. Stockwell had collected

4 feom you, for you fro. the house, and j~st aa a specific

5 example, A-f3l

A. Yes, I vas.

7 O. Okay. So on JUne the 12th, then, vere you able to

8 tell from the knowledge that you had, as of June the 12th, that

9 all four ABO types were represented in the blood samples you had

10 from the Ryen house?

11 A. Yes, sic, ! could.

12 Q. Could you then put all four ABO'S -- let's see.

13 How about a different color in blue over ther&o

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26

27

28

A. (witness complied).

Q. June 13, back to black. You ran Group, Group I on

A-el; is that ri9ht?

A. That is correct. Yes.

O. Okay. And do you know what tl~e of day you dld

that? Do you cemember?

A. Okay. AS far as ~y -- I started the run at

approximately 2:10 in the afternoon. on June the 11th, 1983. I

stopped the run and began development of the run at 5:05.

Q. SO, you would have wocked overtime and found out .

tbe answers to the particular results like by about 6:00 o'clock

in the evening. Is that about a cough estimate?

A. 6:00 to 7:00. Somewhere in there.

o. A.

Could you then put -6-13-83, Group I-, in black.

(Witness complladJ.

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4511

Q. A~ the 8~O time that you ar~ doing Croup 1'8 for

A-fl, you'ce aleo leacning about aoae of the Graup t results

3 foc, for ~e other aa.ples that havo be~n eol1ee~ed, ia that

4 right!

5 That Is co~~.c~, yes.

Q. You knew, did you. sOmO of them on sunday before.

7 and then you did more on ~une the 11th as vell. 80 you did Group

8 I for both of tho3C times, ia tha~ right?

, A. , 'Yeo, I did.

10 o. Dy the time tha~ you finishpd at 7:00 p.m. looking

11 at th~ A-41 re~ul~a, juat baaed on your ABO'S and Group I, you

12 knew tbat you had more, a lQ~ger numbor of qene~ic profiles ift

13 that house lhan you had victime, is that right?

l!)

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18

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2]

2t

25

26

A.

Q. Okay. So then let's -- let'~ SQ2. I guess put

-Non-U Blood- in blUe, if you could. I've got the blue right

here tot' )'ou.

A. (Witness co~plied). -Non-victims Blood-.

Q. Yeah. O~ non --

A. (Witne3~ complied).

Q. NOW, sOIIIewbcrc in this Cjenp.ral time ,frallle, but you

are not exactly sure whe~e, ~hatlG ~h~n you found out that Kevin

was a 1~ and a PEPA 2-1; 10 that r19h~?

A. I believe it ~48 after tho 13th, hu~ [em not

exactly sure of the d4te.

Q. Let's j~t tiort of out in limbo out here. in

27 another C010t. How 4bout ced, if you could, th~n -Ie·, -PGH-

llJ


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A.

o.

4512

(Witness complied).

Just -- attempting not to get too technical but

3 when you wrote PGM, by force of habit you put a little subscript

4 -1-; is that correct?

5

6

A.

o. That's correct.

That is basically there are three different types

7 of PGM's that one finds in blood, but as far as routine forensic

8 typing, only one of them is significant, and the PGM subscript 1

9 is the one that is of serological significance for forensic

10 purposes; is that correct?

11

12

A.

o. Essentially, yes.

On the same date, June the 13th, did you determine

13 that the green blanket had semen on it?

14

15

A.

o. Yes, I did.

Unlike -- if I can refer to them as wall samples to

16 indicate collectively the samples of blood that Mr. Stockwell

17 and Ms. Schechter collected from walls and carpets of the Ryen

18 house, unlike that particular sample, the J-13 analysis,

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

required you to focus in on one individual semen sample that you

had in the case; is that right?

That is, you weren't doing a whole bunch of

different semen samples all together.

A. Well, I analyzed several things for semen samples,

or semen.

o. You mean~ all at the same time or was that done

26 separately?

27 A. I think after my initial screening of other samples

28 I believe it was done pretty much separately.


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4513

o. Well, in fact basically the J-13 was the only thing

that you, that you screened on June the 13th; is that right?

A. I believe it is, yes. For semen, yes.

O. And you knew then, did you not, that that semen had

a large amount of Peptidase A contained in it?

~ Is that right.

A. Yes, I did.

O. SO, of all the different body fluids semen is the

one that you are most likely to get a Peptidase A result, is

that right?


O. NOw, let's -- "6-13", could we also put "J-13·,

"Semen". I will give you the Sharpie in green.

A. (witness complied).

O. Do you know if you turned your attention to the

green blanket before or after you had the Group I that involved

A-41?

A. I don't'know at this point.

O. On June the 14th did you do a test for Peptidase A

on the green blanket?

A. Yes, I did.

O. Could you then put "6-14-83" in green and then

"J-13·, "PEPA·.


O. Okay. At the same time that you ran the PEPA you

also ran the, ran that sample for CA II; is that right?

A. Yes. That is basically the test that is run.

O. Okay. That's what you call a Group IV test?


J , " o " u

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2

A.

Q.

4514

Yes.

Now, basically semen doesn't contain CA II; is that

3 right?

4 A. Not if it contains -- it doesn't contain any

5 significant amount.

6 Q. So, the only reason that you develop it, you

7 develop the CA II at all, is because you are developing blood at

8 the same time you are running semen and you want to see what the

9

10

11

blood result is; is that right?


Q. NOW, normally 4s you were working through this

12 particular case, were you sort of working on your charting from

13 Group I to Group II, to Group III, Group IV, and that is doing

14 it basically in an orderly process. In other words, you do the

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

Group I before the Group IV.


Q. with respect to the green blanket, you varied, is

that right? You did the Group -- you did the Peptidase A before

you did the Group I.

A. That's true, yes.

Q. Was that because you got the information from Mr.

Lorenz that Mr. Cooper had a black variant as far as Peptidase

A; you wanted to see what you had in the blanket.


Q. So at least as far your present memory is

concerned, it is at least possible that you heard from Mr.

27 Lorenz before you did the PEPA on the 14th?

28 A. Yes, sir.


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4515

1 Q. Now, on June the 16, you did the -- on J-13 you did

2 the Group 11 is that right?

3

4

5

6

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

June the 16th? Yes.

So could you put down -6-16-83-, -J-l3-, Group Ie.

Yes.

Is there esterase D in semen in sufficient

7 quantities to pick up?

8

9

10

11

12

13

A. Not normerly, no. -Q. You do Group I then again just because essentially

it doesn't cost you anything to do it and you are doing it along

with the bloods and so you have to develop the bloods anyway?

A. Essentially, yes

Q. At that point in time you were not doing the PGM

14 subtyping; is that right?

15

16

17

A. Not routinely. no. Our system was faulty, if you

will, and I didn't want to put it on the case load.

Q. So at least as far as this particular case is

18 concerned, you didn't do any of that back at that -- in 1983; is

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

that right?

A. Not at this time, no.

Q. In 1983, you were not -- you did not do any work on

the Kevin Cooper case or the Ryen homicide investigation with

respect to PGM subtyping, is that more or less accurate?

A. For all of. '83?

Q. Well. I'm trying to remember when you started. At

26 least before November of 1983?

27 A. That does sound reasonable, yes.

28 Q. Okay. NOW when -- on the -- on the chart tha~ you


I l

•

"-

4516

1 had I don't remember whether you went into this with Mr.

2 Kochis or not but just in case you didn't -- what's called the

3 PGM result and the PGM subtyping result, they are not

4 independent of one another~ is that correct.

S

6

A.

Q.

No, they are not.

Basically what you've got is -- basically all of

7 these genetically determined proteins types have essentially two

8 components to them. one of which is inherited from the mother

9 and the other from the father of the individual; is that right?

10 A. That's correct, yes.

11 Q. Technical name for the component, the half, is an

12 allele, spelled, a-l-1-a-l-e right?

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

2S

26

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Now in fact with the PGM, what you have is four

different allales that you can have in various combinations; is

that right?


Q. And in the case of Jessica we can tell, can we not,

that Jessica got a 1+ allale from her father and a 1- allale

from her mother?


Q. And Joshua got a 2+ allale from Douglas and a 1-

from Peggy?


Q. We don't write it that way, but technically a PGM

result which is not subtyped is in fact normally 2-1 allales, so

27 it would be a 1 is the same as a l-l~ is that right?

28 A. Leaving aside nonallales?


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4517

A. . Leaving aside nonallales.

o. Nonallales are not particularly involved in this

particular case and they are a very complex subject, right?

A. In essence, yes.

o. But they don't matter as far as what we're talking

6 about any of the cast of characters we have in this particular

7 case as far as you know, right?

8

9

10

A. Well, there is one possibility, but it's Rodney

Parish may be half an ala1le.

o. But leaving aside, Rodney Parish is neither victim

11 nor suspect, is merely a person in the house; is that right?

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A. Correct.

Q. Okay. Now back to -- back to the PGM's and the PGM

subtitles, what this No. 1 here means then is that the PGM

subtype could be either a 1- 1-, 1+ 1-, or 1+ 1+; correct?


Q. And the reason that they are all lumped together

was that for a period of time nobody could tell the difference,

but now we can?


Q. SO, long roundabout way back to the point.

~'lhen you found out that Kevin was a 1+ 1+, that

also told you that he was a PGM straight type 1, right?

A. Not necessarily. It's important to run the PGM

straight type, if you will, before you run the PGK subtype.

Q. Wait a minute. If he is a 1+ 1+ you know he is

27 also an 1, right?

28 A. Well. due to some, I guess they call them

COMPUTERIZED T~~SCRIPT

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4518

1 idiosyncrasies of the subtyping system, I feel it's necessary to

2 run the PGM straight type, as you call it, before I run the PGM

3 subtype.

4 Q. That -- 11m not arguing with you about your

5 procedure.

6 But generally, if you know, I mean, leaving aside

7 how you know for the moment, but if you know he is a 1+ 1+, then

8 that's the same thing a saying he's an 1, right? It's an

9 identity? 'ie;,;"F<

10 A. If you know for sure that he is a 1+ 1+, yes.

11 Q. Okay. Back to the ranch. Okay.

12 Now when did you find out that -- for sure that

13 Josh was an ABO type B?

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27

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

This would be on June the 22nd of 1983.

Okay. In blue -- Have you got blue there?

live got the blue.

Could you put -6-22- over here.

(Witness complied.)

Q. And then at that point in time you could say for

certain without any doubt that A-41 didn't come from a victim,

right?

A. Yes, I could.

Q. Okay. So could you put 6-22, A-4l, not victim just

indent it there underneath the blue. There, yeah.


Q. You also knew at that point in time -- Well, your

hypothesis that you were testing for at that pOint in time that

28 A-41 carne from Kevin Cooper, the only person who had been


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4519

charged with the crime?

A. My hypothesis is that it came from an assailant not

3 necessarily Mr. Cooper.

" 5 trying

Q. Okay. Were you -- were you concerned, I mean,

at that point in time you knew that the only person

6 charged with this particular crime was Kevin, Kevin Cooper,

7 right?

8

9

.10

A. I knew that Kevin Cooper was a person charged with

the crime. I didn't know whether he was the only one or not.

Q. And you had at least some knowledge that his

11 types -- at least at that point in time his PGM types were not

12 inconsistent with him having been the person that -- from whom

13 A-41 came?

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Q. At that point in time did you how many -- how

many tests did you think that could you do on A-41 before you

exhausted it?

A. I believed that I could do all of my tests that I

can do in a laboratory, and that would be essentially probably

nine tests at least.

Q. Well, you'd already done five of them?

A. Oh, excuse me. At that pOint in time? Excuse me.

Q. Yeah.

A. What I'm saying is that at the beginning I believed

that I could do all of the tests.

Q. Okay. Well, at that pOint in time you had done

27 five different tests, right?

28 A. Well. I wouldn't count the ortho-tolidine. The


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4520

1 precipitin, the absorptio~-elution, the Lattes, that's three,

2 Group I, that's four.

3 Q. So, you thought you could get five more tests out

4 of it at that point in time?

5 A. Essentially. yes.

6 Q. Now, in your -- in your particular laboratory --

7 Well. let me just backup.

8 If a sample of blood were to come from somebody

9 whose genetic profile is close to that of a piece of evidence

10 but differs in some, you know, in one or -- or in just a few

11 number of enzymes, the more tests that you do is generally to

12 the benefit of that particular person, is that right, because if

13 you do enough tests you maybe able to exclude them?

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27

MR. KOCHIS: I would object. That calls for speculation.

If it's the same source, the more tests you are going to do, you

are just going to simply reconfirm to a smaller percentage, to a

greater degree that's the person that it came from.

MR. NEGUS: The hypothetical was it was a person that is

similar but different in some respects, the more tests --

THE COURT: I will press the exclusion by further testing

I will permit it, counsel.

Overruled.

Can you answer it?

THE WITNESS: I'm not sure if I understand the question

as asked.

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. Okay. Well, let me -- let me -- I'm having so much

28 trouble with it, probably try and figure another way to get at


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4521

1 it.

2 In your particular -- in your particular laboratory

3 you are unable to get satisfactory results with the Group I test

4 the way that Brian Wraxell runs it; is that right?

5 A. The way that Brian Wraxell runs it, first of all,

6 is with another enzyme in it, and 1 do not believe that the

7 other enzyme can be typed reliably, at least by myself, so 1 do

8 not do it.

9 Q. Okay. So Mr. Wraxell, for example, Mr. Blake,

10 other people who are more experienced and educated in serology

11 than yourself can get results but you can't?

12 A. There are other people that feel that they can get

13 results out of glyoxylase, yes.

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25,

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Q. And Mr. Wraxel and Mr. Blake being two examples

that come to mind?

A. I know Brian Wraxell does. I don't know if Dr.

Blake does or not.

Q. And the -- the, I guess, the manual, the cookbook,

the thing that has the recipe for the various tests that you do

in it, that was originally that was originally, came from Mr.

Wraxell; is that right?


Q. And he has the -- has what's called the glyoxylase,

g-l-y-x-o-l-a-s-e, 1 believe, test as one of the components of

the Group I?


Q. And if you add that particular test that gives

28 somebody one additional chance to either exclude that person or


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4522

if the blood did corne from them to include them; is that right?


Q. Are there other tests that can be done by persons

4 with more experience and education than yourself that you were

5 unable to do in the laboratory at that particular time?

6 A. There are other tests that could have been done,

7 yes.

8 Q. For example, PGM subtyping was never done on A-4l?

9 THE COURT: What's the relevance of going into things

10 that were not done of this witness?

11 MR. NEGUS: Because he wasted the sample, and I think

12 that goes to the weight of what he did do. He has already

13 testified he wasted some sample which --

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MR. KOCHIS: Well, that's an argumentative statement of

what his testimony is. And it's not as if this was swept aside

under a rug or put down a toilet. He tested it in other

systems, and it's Mr. Negus pOSition as to which system should

have been tested. It's not a waste.

THE COURT: Mr. Negus, I really fail to see a great deal

of relevancy to that. By saying that there are other test that

he could have run he was therefore negligent or incompetent in

running the tests that he did, is that your argument?

MR. NEGUS: The thing is that -- I have got no quarrel

with the tests that he ran and got good results on. but he did

them in an incomplete fashion, like with the Group I, and

likewise he unnecessarily, his own testimony was, repeated some

27 tests, thus wasting sample and preventing him from doing other

28 tests.


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4523

THE COURT: I'm concerned with wasting time here.

MR. NEGUS: It's not going to take me that much longer.

THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.

4 BY MR. NEGUS:

5 Q. PGM subtyping was something else you could have

6 done; is that right?

7

8

9

10

A.

done, yes.

Q.

A.

PGM sub typing is another test that could have been

And what are the other ones?

Well, if a person felt competent to do glyoxylase

11 or felt that it was a reliable system in the first place, you

12 could do glyoxylase. There are other tests that could have been

13 on. One is called GM another one is called G6PD.

14 MR. KOCHIS: Excuse me. Your Honor, at this point I'm

15 going to interpose an objection because these tests that this

16 witness is talking about, that the crime lab did not have the

17 capability of performing back in June of '83.

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MR. NEGUS: But they had the capability of contracting

with other people to do them like they did in subsequent -

THE COURT: Go ahead. Overruled.

THE WITNESS: And the only other one I can think of right

now would be one called G6PD.

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. Okay. On June the 28th, June the 28th did you then

attempt to do a Group II?

A.

Q.

A.

Yes, I did.

And could you then write -6-28 Group IIR.

(Witness complied.)


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test?

A.

O •

A.

Q.

A.

4524

And on June 29th did you do the second Ab-EL Lattes

Yes, I did.

Could you put -6-29-83-.

(Witness complied.)

Now, did you also on 6-29 do the Group IV?

Yes, I did.

Q. That's with two of the four enzymes that you can

possibly do on that particular test; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay. So could you put -Group IV-.


Q. And you feel yourself competent only to get

14 reliable results on two out of the four; is that right?

15 A. I feel that the enzyme lends -- well, that the one

16 other enzyme that I don't do on Group IV lends itself very -- it

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is very hard to type, or harder to type on Group IV, the G6PO,

that's why I don't do it.

Q. And basically you've never been able to get your

G6PO's to come out right; is that right?

A. I can't say I've never been able to. I've had some

success with it, definitely.

Q. But you weren't having any success and you weren't

doing it back in June of 1983; is that right?

A. No, I wasn't, plus there is other factors involved

in deciding to do it without the 6R G6PO also.

Q. Well, let's go back to the glyoxylase just for a

28 second.


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4525

1 If you did glyoxylase as part of Group I, would

2 that have used up any additional sample?

3

4

A.

Q.

No, it would not.

Would it have effected the reliability of the

5 results that did you get in any way?

6

1

A.

Q.

No.

So, essentially it would have been an extra freebee

8 for no extra cost and no risk?

9 A. Except for the possibility of mistyping glyoxylase

10 which I believe there is a much greater possibility, no, there

11 wouldn't have been.

12 Q. But if you photograph it and you show it to other

13 people you can reduce that?

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A. It's possible, but the enzyme itself degrades in

such a fashion that it lends itself to mistyping errors.

Q. Does it hurt to have additional information?

A. No, it does not.

Q. On June the 29th was there a reason why you did not

proceed and do Group III and haptoglobin?

A. Yes, there is.

Q. Wha t was that.

Q. The Group III's, the biggest reason is because at

that time we were -- did not have a supply of one of the

chemicals which was needed to do Group III.

25 Haptoglobins we were simply not doing at that time

26 a standard run.

27 Q. What do you mean by a ·standard run·1 You just

28 weren't doing them in case work?


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4526

A. We weren't doing them in case work routinely.

Q. Did you note on June the 29th that you hadn't got a

good result on the Group II?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did you make a conscious decision at that point in

time not to rerun it to find out what it was?

A. Not to rerun it, no. I believe the opposite is

true. I made a conscious decision to rerun it.

Q. When did you do that?

A. I reran it on August the 2nd, 1983.

Q. Then let's see. about down here could you put an

8-2-83 Group II in black.


Q. On 8-2-83 did you receive into your laboratory the

sample of blood that came from Kevin?

A. Yes, sir, we did.

Q. Giving you a brown marker, could you put down on

the chart 8-1-83 ·KC blood-.


Q. On 8-2-83 did you attempt to Group lIon Kevin's

blood?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Could you write in brown "Group 11-.

Q. Right next to that was that in fact pa~t of the

same plate as the A-4l?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. write in brown.



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4521

1 Q. I take it then that at that point in time, on

2 August the 2nd, that you knew that Kevin was in custody?

3

4

A.

Q.

Yes.

Prior to -- Well, how many tests did you think you

5 had left when you started running A-4l on -- on August the 2nd?

6

7

A.

Q.

When I -- prior to starting it?

Yeah, before you -- before you started, how many

8 did you think that you would be able to do of the remaining

9

10

11

tests?

A. At least three.

Q. And at that point in time it was your plan to do

12 the Group II again, the Group III for the first time, and the

13 haptoglobin for the first time; is that right?

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A. I can't say if it was at that time or not, but it

was probably around that time, yes.

Q. NOW, recognizing the -- you recognized on, June the

28th you recognized the importance of A-4l for this particular

investigation, did you not?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. At that point in time in order to make sure that

the reading off the plate under the optimal conditions was

shared by as many serologists as possible, did you attempt to

get anybody from outside your laboratory, anybody else with more

experience than yourself. to come in and read the plate with

you?

A. Not anybody from outside the laboratory, no.

Q. Well, the only people -- only people inside your

28 laboratory at that point in time, and still I'm sure, you were


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4528

the person that in your laboratory had the most experience in

serology; is that right?


Q. You are the -- When usually, all else being

5 equal, you get the serology work in the lab, is that --

6

7

8

9

10

11

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Well, there's two other people doing serology, yes.

One of them is Mr. stockwell?

Yes.

And the other is Mr. Jones?


But between -- you have more experience than both

12 of them put together, is that more or less accurate?

13 A. , I have more experience than them, yes, but I can't

14 say whether I have more than both of them put together.

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THE COURT: Between now and tomorrow morning, as always,

don't talk about the case, don't let anybody else discuss it

with you, don't ~et express or form an opinion on the matter.

Drive carefully.

See you tomorrow at 9:30.

(Adjournment.)

i 27 ' ........

28


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IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO

DEPARTMENT NO. 30


Plaintiff,

va.

KEVIN COOPER,

Defendant.


) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )

NO. OCR-93l9

---------------------------------)

APPEARANCES:

REPORTERS' TRANSCRIPT December 6, 1984

For the People: DENNIS KOTTMEIER

For the Defendant:

District Attorney WITH: JOHN P. KOCHIS Deputy District Attorney 1540 Mountain Avenue Ontario, California 91762

DAVID L. McKENNA Public Defender BY: DAVID E. NEGUS Deputy Public Defender 1060 West Sixth Street Ontario, California 91762

ROBERT L. ROACH, CSR .1727 DONNA D. BEARD, CSR t1874 Official Reporters


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f.QR THE PEOPLE:

GREGONIS, DANIEL J. (Mr. Negus)

i

INDEX OF WITNESSES

Direct Cross Redirect

4529


Recross

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INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Iden.

590-A Plastic Overlay 4557 For Exhibit No. 590

591 Chart EAP Banding Pattern 4562

599 Group II Run 1162 - 4539 Copy

600 Group II Run $163 - 4539 Copy

611

612

Chart - Butcher Paper Enzyme Life Span

Chart - Butcher Paper Exhausted Items


4591

4616

ii

In Evd.

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4529

SAN DIEGO. CALIFORNIA. WEDNESDAY. DECEMBER 6. 1984. 9:38 ~

--00000--


DANIEL J. GREGONIS,



as follows:

CROSS-EXAMINATION (Resumed)

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. On -- just to return for a second to cigarette

butts.

As to the information that you have there on -- on

V-12, the hand-rolled cigarette, from the -- from the testing

that you and Brian were able to do on that hand-rolled cigarette

butt, basically you couldn't exclude anybody in the entire

world; is that right?

MR. KOCHIS: Objection. That was asked and answered

yesterday.

MR. NEGUS: No, it wasn't. We did J-20. I forgot to do

V-12.

THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: From Mr. Wraxell's report, his final

conclusions on that, that is correct.

MR. KOCHIS: Well, your Honor, I'm going to object to

hearsay statements of other people. They can testify when


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4530

they're called, but not this witness.

THE COURT: Can't you testify of your own knowledge? Can

3 you exclude anybody in the whole world?

4 THE WITNESS: Well, as far as my testing, this is

5 consistent with a nonsecretor; however, it is not totally

6 conclusive of a nonsecretor.

7 BY MR. NEGUS:

8

9

Q.

A.

So it's also consistent with a secretor, right?

I would say that it's more probable that it is a

10 nonsecretor; however, you cannot totally exclude a secretor

11 also.

12 Q. Well, on this -- Mr. -- you and Mr. Wraxell did an

13 absorption-elution test on V-12; is that right?

14

15

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25

A. That is correct.

Q. And the absorption-elution test is much, much, much

more sensitive than the absorption-inhibition test that you did;

is that right?

A. It's more sensitive, yes.

Q. But -- well, I mean, in terms of sensitivities,

you -- you normally talk in terms of how much you can dilute

something and still pick it up, is that a normal way to try and

measure sensitivities?

A.' Yes, it is.

Q. Okay. Would in terms of dilutions, would the

absorption-elution be ten times more sensitive, a hundred times,

26 thousand times?

27 A. I would say it's, depending on your system,

28 probably around a hundred times for sensitive.


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4531

1 o. So even if you had a nonsecretor you would have

2 expected, had there been enough saliva there, to have picked up

3 some sort of type from V-12, would you not, if there have been

4 enough saliva?

5

6

A.

o. Had there been enough saliva on those tests, yes.

And the fact -- therefore, the fact that

1 What the absorption-elution test, one of the things

8 it's used for is sort of a -- a check on your less sensitive

9 absorption-inhibition test, is that not correct?

10 That is, basically if you get a result on the

11 absorption-elution test, then in certain circumstances that's

12 the first step towards being able to make a deduction that you

13 had enough there, so that had you had a secretor it could have

14 shown up on your absorption-inhibition test?

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A. Well, I wouldn't say that it's the first test or

first step, but it is a step, if you would.

O. It's one of the various systems that -- that --

that you can -- that you have to d01 is that right?

A. That you can do, yes, to detect a nonsecretor ABO

blood type, yes.

o. Well, in order to rigorously answer the question,

you have to do both that and quantify the amylase, right, and do

the absorption-inhibition?

A. In order to come up with absolute conclusions, yes.

Q. Well, as far as your tests on V-12 back in June of

'83, you have no present memory, do you, of what sort of amylase

27 reaction you got?

28 That is, you just have no -- you can't -- you don't


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4532

remember it. You didn't make any notes; is that right?

A. Well, from any notes I got a positive amylase. I

did not note whether it was a weak amylase, which I would have

in this case.

In all my notes I note whether it's weak or not.

Q. Well, the fact that -- Well, is your opinion, by

the way, about -- about your quote ·semiquantative- testing of

amylase as a method of determining whether or not somebody is a

secretor, is that shared amongst the forensic serologic

community?

A. It is shared to some extent, yes.

Q. Well, for example, of the people that you -- that

you recommended testify for the prosecution about -- about

serology in a forensic context, there was only two of them that

had any forensic experience, Dr. Sensabaugh and Mr. Wraxell; is

that right?

A. Okay. I don't remember at this point which other

ones I recommended, but I did recommend those two, yes.

Q. Neither of those agree with you?

A. Well, I think they would agree with me in part.

Q. Well, wouldn't they -- wouldn't they say that your

results and the results -- both the results that you got alone

and the results that you and Mr. Nraxell got would not exclude

anybody in the world?

MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, I would object. It's calling

for a hearsay response what other people may say.

If Mr. Negus wants to subpoena them to come into

court, that's something else.


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4533

1 MR. NEGUS: I no doubt will. But the thing is Mr. Kochis

2 asked Mr. Gregonis about reliability and acceptance in the

3 forensic community, so I believe that it's -- because of the

4 fact that Mr. Kochis has put that issue of acceptance in the

5 scientific community into -- into -- into issue by force you

6 have to have hearsay matters in order -- because now that's --

7

8

THE COURT: No, counsel. I'm a little concerned about

the foundation. You perhaps may lay a foundation where you can

9 get it in otherwise. Otherwise I will sustain the present

10 objection.

11 BY MR. NEGUS:

12 Q. Well, let me -- When you testified that the

13 techniques you used were accepted in the scientific community,

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28

which scientific community were you talking about?

A. Talking basically the serology community, forensic

serology community.

Q. Okay. And are Mr. Wraxell and Dr. Sensabaugh

leading members of that scientific community?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. And are their opinions on these matters given great

weight in that community?

A. Well, their opinions are definitely accepted, yes.

THE COURT: Counsel, I think that's sufficient. Go

ahead.

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. And they disagree with you?

A. Not totally, no.

Q. But they would say that your combining, the work


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4534

1 that you did and Mr. Wraxell's work, you can't exclude anybody

2 as being the person that smoked V-12; is that right?

3 A. Well, first of all, I don't know as our opinions

4 differ all that much.

5 What I'm saying is that the results I got when I

6 initially tested it using the larger sample, I used a much

7 larger portion than we did when Mr. Wraxell and I tested it, the

8 fact that I got a positive amylase plus no antigens present is

9

10

11

indicative of nonsecretor.

Q. It's also indicative of the opposite, right?

A. It -- given the premise if there was not enough

12 saliva there to test, since I only did a semiquantative and not

13 a quantitative, as Mr. Wraxell and I believe Mr. Sensabaugh

14 would have done, it could have also be a secretor.

15 Q. Right. So because of the imprecision of your test

16 for amylase, you have no way of knowing, other than your own

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personal feelings about the matteri whether there was enough

there to get a result or not, right?

A. Well, my test indicated that I had a moderate to

large quantity of amylase present.

Q. Well, I mean that's just -- there is nothing --

there is nothing rigorous or scientific about it, that's just

your feeling, is that right? I mean, you didn't do anything to

demonstrate that.

THE COURT: Counsel, that's apparently his opinion. We

ace becoming argumentative now. You can't go beyond that. You

27 can impeach it with other witnesses perhaps. Move on.

28 MR. NEGUS: If I could read, your Honor, from motions


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4535

1 last summer's transcript, Page 4936 Line 16.

2 MR. KOCHIS: I'd need a volume number.

3 MR. NEGUS: I'm not at all sure of that. It looks to be

4 Volume XXXXVII and that would go to 4937 Line 2.

5

6

MR. KOCHIS: I have that.

MR. NEGUS: Okay. This was talking about, from the top

7 of page, the context, it was talking about V-12.

8

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Q.

-Question: Now when you were doing the test you

did a nonquantitative test to determine whether or

not there is amylase; is that correct?

-Answer: That is true, yes.

-Question: And even with nonquantitative tests you

can sometimes tell whether you have a lot of

amylase there or not so much?

-Answer: That is true, yes.

-Question: The only records, however, that you

took was the fact that you had it, that is right?

-Answer: That's true, yes.

-Question: And you don't remember presently

whether or not you got strong, weak, or whatever

results?

-Answer: Not really, no, not from the testing that

I did personally.-

Getting back to what we were talking about

yesterday, on August 3rd you actually read the Group II; is that

correct?


Q. Could you put an -8-3-83 Read Group II parenthesis


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4536

A. In what color?

Q. Black. Have you got black still there?


Q. And the -- at some point in time did you contact

Mr. Kochis and Mr. Kottmeier and have them come out to the lab

to discuss the work that you'd done?

A. Either I contacted them or it was the other way

around. I don't remember.

Q. Okay. And sometime that first week after -- after

Kevin was arrested they did come out to the laboratory; is that

right?

A. Again, I don't remember the specific date, but it

was around that time.

Q. Well, let's see if we can -- was it -- was it after

you had read the Group II results on A-41?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Do you know -- do you remember whether it was

before you read the Group II results on Cooper the time that you

got the answer?

A. Again, I do not remember.

Q. Well, would the date of August 4th, 1983, at least

then be a possible date.

A. That's a possibility, yes.

Q. Okay. I will put a parenthesis around that in blue

to indicate that I'm putting the date there rather than you.

When Mr. Kottmeier and Mr. Kochis came out to the

laboratory, did you essentially brief them as to what work you


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4537

had done up to that point in time?

A. I believe so, yes.

Q. Was that the first time that the results of your

analysis had been revealed to anyone outside of the Sheriff's

Department?

A. I don't know at this point.

Q. Was that the first time that you personally had

ever revealed the results of your analysis to anyone outside the

Sheriff's Department?

A. Again, I don't recall.

Q. Was that the first conversation you had with the

prosecutors?

A. Again, I do not recall.

Q. At that point in time did -- were you present when

Mr. Kochis made a phone call to me?

A. I was present around that time when Mr. Kochis made

a phone call, yes.

Q. Would that be at least consistent with being at

10:30 in the morning?

A. Yes, it's consistent.

Q. You have no present recollection then?

A. No, I do not.

Q. During that phone call from Mr. Kochis, did you

give him information about the testing that you done to that

point in time on A-41?

A. I believe I did, yes.

Q. Did you omit, leave out from the information that

you gave to Mr. Kochis the results of your analysis of the Group


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4538

1 II on A-41?

2 A. Again, since I don't recall specific dates I'm not

3 even sure I had it at that time.

Q. Well, let's assume -- let's just assume that the

5 phone call was made at 10:30 a.m. on August 4th, 1983.

6 At that point in time, 10:30 a.m., August 4th,

7 1983, you had read the plate on Group II for A-4l, right?

8

9

A.

Q.

That is true, yes.

Do you recall omitting telling Mr. Kochis the

10 results of A-41 at that point in time?

11

12

A.

Q.

No, I do not.

At that point in time you did not or had not read

13 the results of the Group II Acid Phophatase of Mr. Cooper,

14 right?

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A. I may have by that time. At 10:30?

Q. Well, -- let's -- the -- on 8-4 you did a second

Group II on

A. Excuse me -- Excuse me, counsel. I was thinking I

took it off at 10:05, which I did, but it was the 5th that I

took it off.

Q. Okay. So let's add that in brown to the chart if

we could. You can put on 8-4, in brown, Group II -KC- and then

8-5 in brown -Read Group II -KC·.


Q. Okay. Now the -- So it's correct then to say that

at 10:30 a.m. on August the 4th, 1983, you did not have any idea

27 as to what -- you had not read Mr. Cooper's EAP type and didn't

28 know what it was?


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4539


Did you make any effort to not reveal the results

3 of your A-41 analysis until such time as you knew what Kevin

" was?

5

6

A.

o. No.

Showing you Exhibit 599, is that a -- first off,

7 the front of that, is that a Xerox copy of the Group II run that

8 you did starting August 2nd, 1983, and which you read in the

9

10

11

morning of August 3rd, 1983?

A. Yes, it is.

o. And asking you to look at the -- at the back of

12 that document, there are three Poloroid photos that have been

13 pasted on the back; is that correct?

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O. And those Poloroid photographs are, as it were,

Poloroids of Poloroids, they are copies of the -- of the

Poloroid that you took back in August of 1983?


O. Basically do the copies reveal as much information

that's significant for typing purposes as do the original

photographs?

A. They seem to, yes.

O. Showing you Exhibit 600, is that a Xerox copy of

your notes and copies of the photographs prepared in the same

fashion for the run that was done on August the 3rd and read on

August the 5th?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Now the documents that I've handed to you, those


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4540

documents are only released to, by way of the discovery process

that Mr. Kochis mentioned yesterday, upon request of the -- of

the opposing counsel; is that correct?

A. I assume so, yes.

Q. I mean, there are certain documents that you

normally -- you normally give to the DA for release of discovery

even without request; is that right?

A. Well, I normally give them to the DA or the

investigating agency which we were dealing with.

Q. Okay. Whatever the -- the green formal reports you

normally give out without having been asked for them; is that

right?

A. Yes.

Q. But those particular documents that have been

marked as 599 and 600, people have to ask for those; is that

right?

A. Generally upon request they are available to the

defense.

Q. Now, when did you -- when did you publish, that is,

put in written form that was available to somebody outside the

laboratory, the results of your analysis on A-4l?

A. I believe the first report that I wrote was August

the 10th, 1983.

Q. So, other than any telephonic transfer of

information, that would be the first time that anybody outside

the laboratory had a chance to actually look at documents which

indicates your results; is that right?

A. Well, the documents were available inside the


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4541

laboratory if somebody wanted to look at them but that's the

first report that was sent out.

Q. But they weren't made available until after the

formal report; is that correct?

MR. KOCHIS: Objection, it's not relevant.

THE COURT: It's what?

MR. KOCHIS: Not relevant.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: Well, I'm not sure the your request came in

after that or not. They are obviously available in the

laboratory for anybody to look at.

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. On -- sometime during the early part of August, did

you begin to have telephonic conversations about this particular

case with Ed Blake?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Now, when the initial contact between the

prosecution and the defense about the serology in this

particular case was -- was instituted, did you make

recommendations as to independent serologists that could be

hired by the defense to help out in this particular case?

A. I believe I did, yes.

Q. Of those that you made, was Ed Blake the one that

you recommended the highest?


Q. And is that because he's the best that's available

in the private sector, in your opinion?

A. Well, I don't know if he's the best that's


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4542

available. He certainly is among the best.

Q. After the telephone conversation that you had

with -- with Ed, did you eventually at some point in time mail

him some of your -- some of your Poloroids that you had done of

A-41?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Do you have a date as to when you did that?

THE COURT: Counsel, for the benefit of the jury, the

relevancy of all of this line of testimony is either relating to

his credibility or believability or competency; is that correct?

MR. NEGUS: Yes, I think so.

THE COURT: Okay. Just so you can keep it in

perspective, ladies and gentlemen.

THE WITNESS: No, I don't have a record of that.

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. Okay. In any event, did -- was the -- just -- was

it discussed between yourself and Mr. Blake that there would be

further testing of A-4l?

A. At sometime, yes. I'm not sure if it was in the

initial the conversations or not.

Q. At some point in time, say, August of 1983, was

that discussed?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. And had Mr. Kochis requested at any further testing

of A-4l you have a defense serologist, somebody hired by, a

consultant hired by the defense, who was a serologist, was

present whenever you did anymore testing on A-4l?

A. I am not sure if Mr. Kochis requested it. I know I


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requested it.

Q.

4543

In the middle of August did he tell you that

3 basically he had done whatever preparatory work he needed to do,

4 i.e., testing Kevin's blood and was prepared to go ahead with

5 testing, whenever it was convenient with you?

6 MR. KOCHIS: Objection, that is going to go call for

7 hearsay.

8 THE COURT: Well, I don't think it is to prove the truth

9 of it, whatever the actions of this witness. Overruled.

10 MR. KOCHIS: Well, your Honor, I think in this case this

11 one conversation is offered for that purpose.

12 THE COURT: Only this specific comment. You are not

13 going any further?

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15

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17

MR. NEGUS: That is true.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: It was either towards the middle or the end

of August, I'm not sure at what point.

18 BY MR. NEGUS:

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27

Q. And at that point in time was the further testing

essentially delayed until you had done further work on Kevin

Cooper's blood?


Q. And the further work that you wanted to do on Mr.

Cooper's blood, was it run for Group III and haptoglobin?

A. That is correct.

Q.

A.

And do you remember when you finished that work?

I believe it would have been towards the end of

28 September.


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4544

o. Okay. You are not exactly sure of when?

A. Not exactly sure, no.

o. Let me just -- just to again, if there is no

objection, just to facilitate the witness not jumping up and

down, let me put -End of September, Dan ready to test- on the

chart.

And did the testing then actually take place within

a, within a week or 50 of your being ready to do something?

A. Yes. The testing took place on October the 3rd,

4th and 5th.

O. Now, in terms of the different tests, without

getting into all the technicalities of it at the moment, is

there, for each test, a term used called the discriminatory

power which basically is an index, a mathematical index of how

informative in the context of a particular situation a

particular serological test will be?

A. In essence, yes.

Q. And of the tests that you had not performed on, as

of the time that you made the first contact with Ed Blake, that

are reliable enough to be used in the forensic context, was

transferrin, that is, the Group III transferrin and groups of

that component, Gc, was that the most informative of the

remaining tests?

A. Of the tests that I was looking at at that time?

O. Yes.

A. Yes, it was.

O. And haptoglobin then again would be the second most

most informative?


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4545

As I was looking at it at that time, yes.

Well, what test that you had not performed up to

3 that point in time, would you now think would be more, would

4 have been more informative?

5 MR. KOCHIS: Objection, irrelevant. If the tests chose

6 are all in issue, what would be the relevance? It would be his

7 knowledge at that time and not two years later.

8

9

THE COURT: No, counsel, I will permit it. Overruled.

THE WITNESS: The tests that would have been most

10 informative at that time would have been, first of all, the

11 transferrin, which had a greater likelihood than a lot of the

12 tests of either eliminating or including Mr. Cooper as having

13 deposited this blood drop, and also another one would have been

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a test in particular isoelectric focusing on EAP to determine 8

whether this was a test for ,R-or RB.

Q. Well, you had done the tests before. You're

talking about the two on his EAP. I'm talking about tests you

hadn't done before.

A. I had done two EAP runs, yes.

Q. At that point in time did you in any way indicate

that you had any doubt about your results?

A. At that point in time, no.

Q. And, well, let me ask you this.

Did -- after you found out what type transferrin

and haptoglobin types Mr. Cooper was, did you decide that you

26 wanted to do first of all the transferrin?

27 A. I believe it was -- we discussed it between myself

28 and Dr. Blake as to which test would go first.


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4546

Q. You told him you wanted transferrin first, right?

A. I don't recall that specific conversation. I know

that I wanted transferrin and haptoglobin.

Q. Well, did you tell him you wanted transferrin

first?

A. Again, I don't recall.

Q. Did you want transferrin first?

A. Again, at that time, that point, I don't recall.

After this point I would say, yes, because it is a better

discriminatory than the haptoglobin.

Q. And basically did you tell Dr. Blake what you

intended to do and he basically agreed with the procedures that

you suggested?


Q. During all this testing on the A-4l, it was at all

times within the possession and control of the crime lab; is

that right?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. When Ed came down, did he make some suggestions to

you about how to prepare the samples that you had in order to,

in order to maximize both the number of tests that you could do .

on it and the likelihood of getting a readable run?

A.

Q.

A.

Yes, he did.

Did you learn anything from his suggestions?

Yes, I did.

Q. And did those suggestions in fact increase the

chances of getting a readable result and doing two tests?

A. I believe they would have, yes, as compar~d to


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4547

other methods I may have used.

Q. When the sample was prepared, did you essentially

take it out of the freezer and deliver the remains, as it were,

dump them out for Mr. Blake; Dr. Blake?

A. I took the -- it was in a small pillbox, a metal

pillbox. I took that out of the freezer and then I showed that

to Dr. Blake. I didn't dump them out, I just showed it to him.

Q. The way that the -- that sample that was collected,

that was essentially putting all those little plaster chips into

a test tube type thing with solution in it, to desolve the blood

into solution?

A. As far as we were going to analyze it that day?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes.

Q. And were you the one that actually did that?

A. I'm not sure if I did or Dr. Blake did, or both of

us. I am not sure.

Q. Well, were you attempting to use all the stuff that

you had there?

A. As much blood I saw at the time in the small

container, yes.

Q. Did you neglect to look at the lid of the

container?

A. I don't believe so, no.

Q. Well, after, after that test, urn, on several

different occasions did you testify that all the blood that was,

that was there, had been consumed in the analysis?

A. I believe that all the usable blood, I testified


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4548

that all the usable blood had been consumed in the analysis,

yes.

Q. At some point in time you discovered what you

thought was more blood in the pillbox?

A. At some point in time, just out of curiousity sake,

I did open the pillbox and saw a very small quantity of blood

remaining.

THE COURT: Just answer that yes or no.

THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.

BY HR. NEGUS:

Q. Where did that come from?

A. I assumed that it was already in the box.

Q. How come you didn't take that out when you were

preparing the sample back in October?

A. Again, I believe I didn't see it.

Q. During the design of the test, did, did essentially

Dr. Blake try and design it so, Dr. Blake design it so that for

sure you'd get a transferrin result and then you'd hope you had

enough left over to get a haptoglobin result?

A. That is essentially correct, yes.

Q. And was the amount that you had left over for the

haptoglobin, after you had run the transferrin first, was that

essentially a lesser than optimum amount of blood for testing?

A. After we had run the haptoglobin?

Q. After you had run the transferrin, the amount of

what you had left was a little bit of solution, right?


Q. And was that, was the amount of blood in that


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4549

1 solution less than optimum for running the haptoglobin?

2 A. I would say it is less than I would normally use,

3 yes. So, yes.

4

5

6

Q.

A.

Q.

And was the haptoglobin result not very strong?

It wasn't very strong, that is correct.

In the literature about the testing of blood, in a

7 forensic context, is it a general idea that an analyst, in order

8 to avoid miscalling something, has to be very careful in

9 situations where the results are weak or positively ambiguous,

10 just say I make no call?

11

12

A.

Q.

That is true, yes.

Was there a particular reason that you wanted to

13 have a serologist chosen by the defense present when you did

14 additional testing on A-4l after August the 5th?

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A. Yes, there is.

Q. What was that?

A. Basically, there was a couple of reasons.

One is to make sure that they did see my results

firsthand rather than through photographs, which are not always

as good as seen at firsthand.

And basically out of courtesy to the defense.

Q. Were those, were those reasons any less compelling

on August the 2nd when you, when you did the second EAP test?

A. I would say no.

O. Let's just -- just for A-41, of these various

different tests that you can do on A-4l, that you did in fact

27 do, would it be the ABO, EsD, PGM, EAP, ADA, AK, Gc, Tf, PEPA,

28 and Bb.


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How many of those did you attempt to use blind

testing on?

A. The ABO, the EsD, the PGM, the CA II and the

Peptidase A.

o. Well, you can't say for sure that you attempted to

do blind testing on the PGM, because you donlt know whether you

got information about Mr. Cooperls PGM type before, after you

read that test.

A. First of all, without having a standard for Mr.

Cooper I don't, didn't really consider that as a standard

anyway.

o. It was information that you had.

A. It was information, yes.

Q. What's the purpose of blind testing?

A. To make the calls as unbiased as possible.

Q. So, if you had the information about a personls

type, the thought is that maybe the result that you want in a

particular case will influence your call?

A. That is the thinking, yes.

Q. And at least you had some information also about

Mr. Cooper's Peptidase A type before you read A-41; is that

correct?

MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, I'm going to object as lack of

foundation. If I am permitted to go into the nature of the

information Mr. Gregonis had, I am not going to have an

objection. But I would like to be heard further, out of the

presence of the jury on this area. I think we had a rUling on

it before outside the presence.


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THE COURT: Take an early recess. Any objection?

M.R. NEGUS: No.

THE COURT: All right, let's take a early recess.

Court will remain in session though. Remember the

admonition.

This is an in-chamber matter. We will take it up

in chambers.

(Chambers conference reported.)

THE COURT: On the record. The defendant and all counsel

are in chambers out of the presence jury.

While M.r. Negus is looking for something in the

Court's copies of transcripts, Mr. Kochis, Mr. Kottmeier, do you

have any revised estimates on when you might be able to rest

based upon the speed we're going?

MR. KOCHIS: No. It is still possible, in my opinion,

that the week of the 17th of December would be a week in which

we may rest.

THE COURT: Well, that is wonderful.

MR. KOCHIS: If not that week, I would say almost for

sure the first week in January when we come back for those three

days.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. KOTTMEIER: One other thing that we can discuss

briefly while the jury is not here.

This afternoon I would request a few items from

evidence to be released to myself for this weekend. We have

~ade arrangements with Dr. Mary Howell for a conversation at the


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4552

1 home of Josh Ryen that we will video tape, to offer as a

2 foundation for Josh's statements. And what we were going to do,

3 with the Court's indulgence and consent, would be for Mr. Negus

4 and I to go to Josh's house, ask him questions on video tape,

5 bring this tape back to court to offer as the basis for a

6 foundational evaluation of his testimony and/or the possible

7 introduction of the tape if both sides find it usable.

8

9

THE COURT: What do you need from evidence?

MR. KOTTMEIER: A couple of photographs. It must be

10 contageous, Kochis. A couple of photographs such as the

11 interior of the laundry room and in particular the Star Trek

12 towel that we have been discussing.

13 THE COURT: Okay. We'll take them out at some point.

14 Show it to Mr. Negus.

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MR. NEGUS: I have no objection.

THE COURT: Perhaps there will be no objection.

MR. KOTTMEIER: And we need to set some time aside when

the Court can review Josh's tape, assuming it comes out, and

make some -

THE COURT: You are going to have a tape? Okay. The

video tape.

MR. KOTTMEIER: A video tape. We are hoping to have a

very relaxed atmosphere with Joshua, with just his grandmother,

~r. Negus and myself and Josh present, and then the camera to

video tape him in his own home. And both sides I think are

26 hoping

27 THE COURT: I can conceive of it not being necessary at

28 all. I mean, after your conversation, interview or deposition,


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4553

whatever you want to call it, you both may agree that the tape

be used, that it not be used, that it is necessary to have the

live body, any number of things.

MR. NEGUS: I think the probability is we will agree. I

5 would like to be able to arrange somehow before it is played to

6 the jury, you know, just because of confrontation rights that

7 are involved, I need to have Mr. Cooper be able to see it before

8

9

it is played to the jury.

THE COURT: I will -- certainly we can arrange a time,

10 that is not important.

11 MR. KOTTMEIER: But that is on the horizon for this

12 Sunday.

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THE COURT: Okay.

MR. NEGUS: Well, I can't find it.

MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, the nature of my objection, what

he is attempting to get into in front of the jury, is that Mr.

Gregonis received a phone call from Mr. Lorenz, whose with the

Allegheny Crime Department in Pennsylvania, and some information

was passed. However, what happened is Mr. Lorenz says, ·We have

a case in which Mr. Cooper is a suspect.-

The assailant, whether it be Mr. Cooper or someone

else, left some seminal fluid behind at·a scene of a rape and

this is the type of that person.

Now, provided I can go into that, I don't care.

THE COURT: I can't conceive of the relevancy of that

26 information, but the fact that he -- is that what you are trying

27 to go into?

28 MR. NEGUS: I have gone into it, that Mr. Lorenz called


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Mr. Gregonis and told him that it -- that based upon -- the

blood type basically is all I care about. He told him he's 1+

and PEPA 2-1, and the fact that, how did Mr. Lorenz know that,

because they had Mr. Cooper's fingerprints on a vehicle that was

used and he was identified positively by the victim, and they

got, they had that particular information. I don't see that

that is particularly relevant. All that is relevant is that he

had the information and it was was passed.

MR. KOCHIS: Well, on the contrary. All the things Mr.

Negus articulated weren't passed on to Mr. Gregonis, the

positive 1.0., photo lineup and fingerprints, and my position

and Mr. Gregonis' point is, I didn't have a positive sample.

This was not like a standard. It wasn't as if someone from

Pennsylvania called me up and said, we've got a blood bank here,

we have got a sample of Cooper's blood, and this is his profile.

They had some stains that were left behind by an

assailant and Mr. Gregonis felt it was not a standard, and he

was doing blind testing because he was not sure that was left

behind by Mr. Cooper, and I intend to at least, now that Mr.

Negus has made an issue on this in front of the jury, to go into

it in front of the jury; that Mr. Lorenz is not employed by San

Bernardino, that he's employed by a crime lab in another part of

the country,

THE.COURT: That is whose not employed?

MR. KOCHIS: Mr. Lorenz. He works for the crime lab in

Allegheny County.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. KOCHIS: If Mr. Negus continues to push this argument


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that he had a standard, that it wasn't blind testing, I feel I

should be allowed to go into the fact that you really have an

unknown quantity. Mr. Cooper hasn't been convicted in

Pennsylvania. There is a lot of things which have to be

established before it is shown that the results that Mr. Lorenz

read over the phone had anything to do with this defendant.

THE COURT: How can we do that in a nonprejudiclal

manner?

MR. NEGUS: I think that the fact that Dan's already

done, it -- I mean, he said he didn't have a standard, I am not

disputing that, what I was, the actual direction I was going in

at this point in time was that the tip that he got from

Pennsylvania, as far as the PEPA was concerned, was confirmed by

his semen analysis of the green blanket, prior to his doing

testing on A-41. That was in fact where I was going with it at

this point in time.

MR. KOCHIS: My problem is when he says you have some

information, if that question is going to be asked and answered,

then I have a right to go into what some information consists.

If it is not, we have that profile back there.

THE COURT: Mr. Kochis, I simply can't permit the prior

act back there, bringing in the rape and suspect's status, all

of that to come in. I can't see any justification for that at

all.

You can bring in the nebulous quality of it in some

manner, this was simply a phone call from back there intitiated

perhaps by that office without any varification of this witness

in some manner, but you are going to have to do it in a


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nonprejudicial manner.

MR. KOCHIS: But I am -- what I am saying, he should not

be allowed to have it both ways, to push this information

aspect. I am not' the one that brought it up, I didn't mention

any of this on direct. If he wants to bring it up he's opening

up a number of doors that we completely stayed away from.

You can't close the examination down once he

chooses, for whatever reason is in his mind, to waive that and

go into that. That's what he's done.

MR. NEGUS: I don't think I have waived it. Let me

just if the issue is -- I am not going to push it anymore,

and the only other point I was going to make was that the tip he

had was confirmed by the green blanket, and before he, before he

looked at the PEPA on A-41, that's was the other thing, anymore

than I have already done.

THE COURT: We are accustomed to editing matters, to

excising prejudicial parts of it; we do it all the time. And we

will have to continue to do so with reference to the

Pennsylvania information.

MR. KOCHIS: Well, I will attempt to be as tactful and as

artful as I can in my question.

THE COURT: I will jump allover you if you are not.

MR. KOCHIS: That is what you're in the courtroom for?

THE COURT: All right, thank you. Take a recess.

(Recess)

THE COURT: You may continue, counsel.

BY MR. NEGUS:


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1 Q. To finish up briefly with where we were before, at

2 one point in time you testified, did you not, that you were

3 attempting to blind type Group lIon A-41?

A. I believe I testified that in essence that's the

5 way it looked for Group II.

6 Q. Didn't you also testify that you attempted to and

7 then changed your mind when you found out that you had [un

8

9

Cooper's blood at the same time and admitted that you didn't?

A. Well, the first time I tested it, it was a blind

10 trial on the 28th. And then I believe that I said that

11 essentially that I was trying to blind type it but when I ran it

12 on Group -- Group II on the 2nd of August, I believe, ~hatI wa

13 still trying to blind type it~ however, obviously it was not a

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blind trial because Mr. Cooper's blood was on the same plate.

Q. Well, first of all, you testified that yoU

didn't that -- wasn't your first testimony that you didn't

run Mr. Cooper's blood on the same plate as A-4l and then I

showed you the thing and you changed your mind and said you did,

and said, -I stand corrected.-?

A. I may have for the run on August the 2nd.

Q. On this Exhibit 590 I've also placed a plastiC

overlay, 590-A so that we can -- that we can draw on it.

This -- the actual area where you where you're

looking at these patterns that you get is like about yea big,

less than a foot in each dimension?

A. I would say the actual area is somewhere around

nine inches by four inches, something like that, for each

28 enzyme.


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o. Okay. So you basically -- what -- the terminology

that you use is, is that when you -- when you set up one

particular test, one particular test

You called that a run, is that is that the

terminology you use?

A. Yes, I do.

O. I'm putting up on the board 599.

And the -- for most runs that you do, you'll use

somewhere between eight and twelve samples of blood?

A. Depending on the system and the size plate that 1'm

using, that's correct.

O. And also sometimes, not in this particular case too

much, but sometimes just, you know, how much you have left to

do, is that right?

I mean, if you -- if you -- you will -- between

nine and twelve -- if you only have six samples you won't use

twelve, you will use the nine?

A. Well, I will probably use at this point I will

probably use the twelve and just stick on some samples for

population studies.

O. Back when you were doing it in June of '83 and

August of '83, you'd use nine or twelve.

There's no real significance

What, I guess what I'm saying is there is no

significance as far as the test is concerned as to whether or

not you use nine or twelve; is that right?


O. Now, the particular test that you did on August


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2nd, 1983, that involved nine different slots, is that right, of

the Group II?

A. Yes.

Q. That was what you referred to in your run number as

Run 162?


Q. Does that mean essentially that that was the

hundred sixty-second time that you had run a Group II in your

laboratory in a case context?

A. As far as Group II's, that's the hundred

sixty-second time that I had run a Group II after I started

keeping records in this method.

Q. Okay. How long were you doing Group II's before

that, just a short period of time?

A. Probably six months prior to the beginning of this

way of numbering.

Q. And then at that pOint in time you were also in the

250's and 260's as far as Group I's are concerned; is that

eight?


Q. So of the -- of the particular tests that you --

that you performed in your laboratory when you started working

for them they basically were just doing ABO, right?

A. Basically, yes.

Q. And then after a period of time you added the Group

I, and then after another period of time you added the Group II?

A. 3asically I started the Group I right away and then

probably about three months later, four months later possibly, I


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started the Group II's.

o. And then the other stuff was -- was just beginning

3 at the time that this case occurred; is that right?

" A. As far as routinely, yes. The peptidase A's were

5 being -- or the Group IV's were being run somewhat routinely,

6 depending on the case, prior to this.

7

8

9

10 of the

o. A.

o.

If you had a black defendant, is that -

Either suspected black assailant or victim.

Okay. So this was basically then, Group II was one

was one of the tests that you had more experience on

11 than some of the others?

12

13

A.

Q.

That is true, yes.

Now, just on this -- on the actual, I guess,

14 machine, or whatever you wish to call this that you run it on,

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just so that we -- the negative side on that is called the

cathode~ is that right?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. I'm going to write ·cathode· on at 590-A.

And the positive is called the anode?

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, the -- trying to be as -- not to be too

technical, what you're doing in the testing is you're attempting

to see, given a certain amount of electricity and in a certain

amount of time, how far certain parts of blood will travel; is

that right?

A. In essence, yes.

Q. So, when you have -- when you have your -- your

28 paradigms for -- this is a -- a -- a PGM that you have on the,


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set up there on the on the diagram as it exists nOW1 is that

right?

A. It could be be a ?GM, yes.

o. The -- so what you're -- the -- what you're trying

to do is you're going to measure the distance or just examine

the distance then, a certain time certain voltage will take for

certain materials to get to those particular -- those particular

slots that you have on the diagram; is that right?


O. Okay. Now in -- each time that you -- that you

run, just using that example, a PGM, it doesn't turn out to be

exactly, you know, say three inches from this the place where

they started to the furthest point, it will vary, right?


o. So what you do in trying to analyze it is, you're

making comparisons rather than precise measurements of distance

moved?

A. That is correct for the most part.

o. In order to -- well, both the PGM's and the acid

phophatases have more complex patterns than average, is that

true?

A. I don't know if you can say it would be more of and

average. They are more complex than other enzymes.

o. When -- after you finished doing the running the

electricity through the -- through the -- through the machine

and the proteins have finished their movement, you can't see

anything just by looking at it, right?

A. Well, you can. For instance on Group IV you can


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see the hemoglobin partway through the run, where it is, but

generally, you have to put something on the plate to develop it.

Q. And the way you do that is you spread another

chemical over the surface of your -- of your gel and that will

react with whatever -- whatever particular enzyme you're looking

for and make a visual pattern?


Q. with your

two different types of

with your Group II basically there's

two different ways that you get the

patterns to come up. One is you put on a substance which will

make the protein glow in the dark, and another one is you put on

a substance which will turn it a darker color from the gel1 is

that right?


Q. And the EAP is done by making it glow in the dark?

A. Or to be more specific, to floresce in ultraviolet

light.

Q. For nontechnical people glow in the dark is good

enough. I mean, that's pretty much what you see, you see a glow

and you do it in the dark?

A. With an ultraviolet light.

Q. And so with the ultraviolet light, that's a rough

approximation of what the different little patterns are going to

look like1 is that right?

A. That's what they do look like, yes.

Q. That being Exhibit 591 that I'm showing.

Now, as you were doing it back in August of 1983,

you were putting two different coatings on your acid phophata$e,


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is that right?

A. I was at times, yes, depending on the samples.

o. Well, in the case of Run 162 you put two different

4 coatings on, right?

5

6

A.


And after you put on the

7 The first coating you took a reading, is that

8 right?

9

10

A.

o. That's true.

And as far as A-41, in that particular slot after

11 you put the first stain on the reading was a B, right?

12 A. Okay. I'm not sure whether I read the first or

13 A-4l on the -- well, what you call the first coating or the

14 second coating, I'm not sure at this point.

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Q. Didn't you do both?

A. Yes, I did, but a lot of times the reason for the

second coating is that you can read things that you cannot with

the fi rst coat.

Q. Putting up on the board Exhibit 595, which is a

little chart that you prepared for Mr. Kochis of different

patterns that you look for in the -- in the enzymes, you

22 mentioned -- and you put a dotted line to indicate something

23

24

25

called a storage band, is that right, the top of that exhibit?


o. Okay. Now if somehow you could analyze blood this

26 way while it was still inside a human being, you wouldn't see

27 that; is that right?

28 A. Probably not, no.


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1 Q. What -- what the storage band is, is it's a

2 after blood is shed it starts to change immediately; Is that

3 right?

" A. That is true, yes.

5 o. And one of the things that forensic -- forensic

6 ser010gists have to be careful about is to be sure and analyze

7 the blood before it changes too much to either be not readable

8 or to give false results; is that correct?

9 A. That is correct, yes.

10 o. And with acid phophatase there's been a fair amount

11 of controversy in the forensic community over the last ten years

12 or so about what happens to it as it gets older; is that

13 correct?

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A • There's been discussion about it, yes.

Q. One of the things that you have to do with acid

phophatase is to check to make sure it hasn't gotten too old so

that its patterns will alter; is that right?

A. That is part of it, yes.

O. One of the -- one of the diagnostic clues that

people use is to check the storage bands, right?

A. That is part of it, yes.

O. And basically what you want to make sure is that

you don't have too much activity up here as would indicate a

sample that was too old to be reliable, true?

A. I don't know about too old, but too degraded. But

26 that is mostly prevented by one of the chemicals that you add to

27

28

the stain before you run it.

Q. Okay. But you can -- you can sort of freshen up


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4565

1 the stain by adding a chemical called mercaptoetanol,

2 m-e-r-c-a-p-t-o-e-t-h-a-n-o-l; is that correct?

3

4

5

A.

Q.

A.

Sounds good to me.

And you use that to freshen its up, as it were?

To reconvert some of the degraded product into the

6 original product, if you will.

7 Q. Is that the same thing as in technical language,

8 that's freshening it up?

9

10

A.

Q.

I would say so, yes. ---. ----------

You still, however, even after you after you add

11 the freshener upper, you still have to check to make sure that

12 the freshener upper worked, right?

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A. Exceptionally, yes.

Q. So, when you're reading the plate you have to first

check up in the storage band area to make sure that you don't

have a degraded sample, that's one of the first things you have

to do; is that right?

A. That's part of the diagnosis, yes.

Q. Now, if -- if you were looking -- if we were to

convert these little lines on the -- I will take a red marker on

Exhibit 590-A and just for convenience taking 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

As to the EAP, just realizing it's not to scale or

anything like that, but the different spots that you would look

for your for a reaction would be like 1, 2, 3, 4, skipping 5

and then 6; is that basically correct?


Q. And so the storage bands would be up around the 6

28 area?


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A. Using those diagrams, yes.

O. When you put your -- giving you a green marker,

when you -- when you put your stain on the Run 162, the first

stain, that is, not the one that makes it go brighter, but the

first, what area of the plate did you cover with the stain?

Could you circle that in green?

A. The first part that I covered was approximately

from

It's not marking very well.

O. Let me find see if I can find another one here.

Well, let's switch from -- I can't find green.

Let's switch from green to brown.

Giving you the brown marker, could you then mark it

in brown, the area -- you've drawn a line along it.

Now when you did -- when you did this particular

Run 162 then, the first thing you did was to check the general

overall patterns to see whether or not, you know, what you had.

And do you actually sort of sit there and go down

them and write down your calls, you know, from just the first

stain?

A. If I can call them out of the first stain, yes.

Q. Okay. So when you -- when you -- as far as what

you understood about A-41 was concerned, it appeared to be a

fresh stain; is that right?

A. From my other analysis, yes, it did.

Q. Okay. And had there been any signs present when

you were, when you were looking at it on August the 3rd, that

would have stood out in your mind, would it not, that, oh,


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here's something that it may be not as fresh as I thought it

was?


O. You didn't see any activity, any significant

activity up in the storage band area when you stained A-4l7 1s

that right?

A. Not that I can recall, no.

Q. In this particular -- in the particular Run 162,

using the blue marker on Exhibit 590-A, could you indicate the

spot where -- where you put the second stain, the one to make it

what you had already seen brighter?

A. Okay. As far as what are you considering No.5,

just nothing there.

Q. Basically just to get the spacings right, in an EAP

sample there would be nothing normally that would pick up in the

No. 5 spot; is t~at right?

A. Not normally, no.

Q. Okay. So let's consider No.5 to be normally

blank.

A. Basically the area where I put the second overlay

was below, or I guess through 5, somewhere between the storage

band area and the first diagnosis band, and I put it down to the

origin.

Q. Was that basically negligence on your part?

A. Well, there's a reason why I did not put it up any

further. That is because there is another enzyme up above that

which can be very much effected and cause false results due to

the chemical that's put on on the second overlay.

COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIP'l'

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4

1

4568

1 Q. Is that -- is that the way that Mr. Wraxell

2 recommends that you do it?

3

4

S

6

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

As far as the second overlay?

Yeah.

I'm not sure what Mr. Wraxell recommends.

In the -- in the pattern that you get with a --

7 with an RB, the middle band is slightly more intense than either

8 the top band or the bottom band; is that right?

9

10

A.

Q.

That is true, yes.

But the top band is of the same intensity as the

11 bottom band; is that right?

12

13

A.

Q.

Approximately, yes.

Now, as -- because there exists these -- these

14 problems in interpretation sometimes of acid phophatase, there

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

2S

26

27

are certain rules, are there not, about when you make a call and

when you don't?

A. Yes, there are.

Q. So, basically one of the rules is that unless you

can see bands in both either No. 1 and 3, 2 and 4 positions,

that is, those would be of those two pairs, you wouldn't make a

call, right?


Q. And so you would not have called the A-4l a type B

unless you had a clearly visible band right here.

A. That is true, yes. That's what the problem was on

my first run.

Q. So, if in fact A-41 had been an RB rather than the

28 B that you saw on the plate when you looked at that particular


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4569

area, you would have seen an equal area up there, right?

A. Had I put the second overlay up that far, yes.

Q. Even with the first overlay, when you saw it on the

first -- on the first -- when you first spread the thing over

there, you would have seen it at that point in time, would you

not?

A. Not necessarily, no.

Q. Is the other, the other, the other EAP runs that

you were doing in the same general time as you had run 162, did

they show the areas stained with both stains where the overlay

was?

A. Excuse me, I don't understand your question.

Q. You have the pictures there before you, do you not

have? Of the other Group II runs that you were doing at the

same period of time.

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And, do they show the same staining procedures that

you used on Run l62?


Q. Don't they, for example, show right up into the

other ones, show right up into the storage band area that had

been sustained with both the first and the second stain?

A. I would say they all seemed to show that I stained

with the second stain below where I stained the first stain.

Q. Okay. But you -- the other ones are stains in the

storage band area, right?

A. Some of the them are, yesl some of them cut right

through it.


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4570

1 Q. On this -- on this particular Run 162, basically

2 the only Ryen case samples that you were actually running were

3 Kevin's blood and A-41; is that right?

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

was.

A.

Q.

A.

o. A.

o.

That is true, yes.

And Kevin's blood was obviously quite fresh.

Yes, it was.

And the A-41 at least was appearing quite fresh?

From -- again, from my previous results, yes, it

So, isn't the reason why you didn't bother staining

11 in the storage band area, which is something you normally would

12 want to know, was because they were fresh and so that you could

13 see that there wasn't any activity up there?

14 A. That is part of it, along with that the storage

15 band area is usually -- although I know different now, I did not

16 believe at that time that it was a diagnosis or a diagnostic

17 area for this enzyme.

18

19

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28

o. Well, didn't you tell me, when we went into this

EAP problem at great length at previous hearings, that you

always made it clear to make sure that there wasn't much

activity in the storage band area?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And that is what you did in this particular, this

particular case with A-41; is that right?

A. On my initial overlay, yes.

Q. Okay. And there wasn't.

A. Not that I saw, no. Or not that I recall.

Q. So that would not have been consistent with an RB


o o I ,

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4571

and that's why you didn't call an RB, right?

A. Again, I disagree with that. I mean, I was looking

for a storage band, not necessarily an R band up there. I did

not know that you could get at least an indication of an RB on

this system.

O. Let's just back-up.

Again, the same sort of nomenclature, a type B is

in fact two BB alleles, it is a BB, just shortened to a -B-,

leaving aside the allele.

A. Yes, sir.

O. What you get is when you are analyzing it, is that

whether or not you have a BB, RB, AB, CB, your B protein is

always going to end up on the same spot; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Ditto, whether or not you have an RR, RA, RB, RC,

or RD, the R bands are always going to show up in the same spot,

right?


Q. And the R bands essentially will show up in, as

with all the things, in EAP, in the same spot as the B's and

also beyond it, right?

A. Yes.

Q. True. Or RR, RC, RA, RB, whatever.


O. You certainly were aware that the system you were

using could be used to detect R's at that point in time, weren't

you?

A. I was aware that it could be used to detect R's and


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4

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:~ ....

4572

RA's, I did not -- I was not aware that you could differentiate

the B and the RB on this system.

Q. Well, you knew like for an R -- to tell an RA you

had to look up there, right?

A.

Q.

A.

That is true, yes.

And so you are saying

And below, too; you have to look at the whole

pattern.

Q. All right. So, you know at least one of the places

you had to look was up him here.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You also knew for an R you had to look up there,

right?

spot

bands

band

that

A. That is true.

Q. But it never occurred to you to look in the same

for an RB?

A. Well, it occurred to me that I knew where the R

occurred, since they are very close to where the storage

of B band or the B type is. I did not believe at that time

you could get an indication of whether it was a B or an RB.

Q.

A.

Well, at what point did you learn that you could?

That 'I could?

Q. Yeah. Become part.

A. After I did some research into the RB, and this was

after the impetus for the research was learned that Dr. Blake

called Kevin Cooper's blood an RB.

Q. SO, your basic RB research has all been done since

you learned that if your call was correct, then A-41 couldn't


" o ~ ,

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4573

have come from Kevin cooper.

A. Could you repeat the question.

Q. Your RB research has all come after you learned

4 that if your A-41 call was correct, A-41 could not have come

5 from Kevin; is that right?

6

7

8

9

A. My basic research is after I found out Mr. Cooper

was an RB.

Q. Was the impetus to your research the fact that if

your original call of a B was correct, based upon what you saw

10 on the plate, then A-41 could not have come from Kevin?

11 A. Along with learning that my calIon VV-2, the blood

12 sample from Mr. Cooper, was also wrong.

13 Q. Did -- basically, as far as A-41 is concerned, are

14 you using the photographs now to say that you can see more in

15

16

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21

22

23

24

25

the photographs than you could see in the plate when you were

looking at it back in August?

A. Well, with what I know now, I would say the

photographs of the runs, where you can see the bands, it, you

know, will have more meaning to me.

Q. Do you remember at one of our prior hearings

testifying that it was hard to tell the difference between a B

and an RB?

A. I don't remember, no. But I could have.

Q. If that occurred prior to your learning that Kevin

was an RB, at least at that point in time you would have had

26 some idea that you -- it'd be hard, it could be done; is that

27 correct?

28 A. I believe I also stated that in order to really


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4574

I tell whether it was an RB you have to put it on another system

2 to confirm it.

3 Q. Well, then at that point in time were you looking

4 for information that would say, hey, put it on another system

5 and let's check it out?

6 A. Basically, I didn't know of information that would

7 tell me that at that time, so, no, I would not.

8 MR. NEGUS: I would like to read from the preliminary

9 hearing transcript, Volume XI, Page 30, Lines 2 through -- 2

10 through 13,

11

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27


MR. NEGUS: (Reading)

-Question: Do you test your reducing agents to

determine their effectiveness before you use them?

-Answer: By the use of standards, yes.

-Question: So, essentially your test, then, is if

the standard comes out the way it should, then

it's working okay?

-Answer: Essentially, yes, as long as I don't

have in the particular PGM and EAP if I don't

have a lot of storage bands and such.

-Question: Do you stain on the on the EAP so

you can see the storage bands, or overlay?

-Answer: I stain above where the EAP would

normally be. So just -- I would expect to pick up

the storage bands if they are there.-

Then same volume, Page 34, line 6, through 35, 2.

28 And the photograph that was referring to is the photograph of


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1 A-41.

2

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4575



-Question: Where would the storage bands be on

that particular photograph?

-Answer: They would be present up more anodally

of the sample, up in this area.

-Question: Would they -- there appears to be like

an area where you stop staining or overlaying on

that photograph.

-Answer: No. That's -- there's overlay, secondary

overlay, after you initially develop the sample

you develop or put an overlay of approximately

one percent sodium hydroxide on there. It brings

up the bands, and what it does is makes the

chemical -- brings it from a -- what would be

called an alcohol stain into a feron state, and

that's it essentially fluoresces brighter.

-Question: So that band across the top there

-Answer: This line across the top is where I

stopped putting on the one percent sodium

hydroxide.

-Question: To make it glow in the dark?

-Answer: Make it brighter.

-Question: All right.

-So are there storage bands above where you

stopped putting on the one percent?

-Answer: There doesn't appear to be. There may be


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some faint ones that I didn't pick up with my

initial overlay.

4576

"Question: Okay. Well, do you -- do you put that

second overlay on routinely, or is that just when

you have faint results?

"Answer: I pretty much do it routinely. I read

the plate before and after putting the overlay on

it."

9 And then could we go on actually with the next

10 line, 7 through 10.

11

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MR. KOCHIS: I have seen that as well.


"Question: Looking at that photograph -- well,

first, do you believe that that -- I mean, are you

sure, same degree of certainty with the other

ones, that that is a B and no other type?

"Answer: Yes, sir,

And then on Page 36, Lines 4 through 12.



"BY THE COURT: If you just read off the

photograph, not having read off the plate, would

you read it only as a B?

"THE WITNESS: Yes, I would.

"Question BY MR. NEGUS: And no other type?

"Answer: Yes, sir.

"Question: So, you are sure of that just from the

photograph?


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4511

-Answer: From the photograph I would call it a B.

-Question: And you are sure?

-Answer: Yes, sic.-

At the time that you gave that particular testimony

5 at the preliminary hearing, did you believe that the pOint I was

6 trying to make about the EAP was that it might have been

7 degraded?

8

9

MR. KOCHIS: Objection, that would be irrelevant.

MR. NEGUS: It goes to his attitude towards testifying at

10 that point, the particular opinion that he is testifying.

11

12

MR. KOCHIS: It calls for speculation as to --

THE COURT: Well, if you know what you think, go ahead.

13 If you can explain your answer. Overruled.

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THE WITNESS: I believe at that time I was thinking as to

whether another expert could come in and read my photographs and

tell what type it is.

BY MR. NEGUS:

O. Were you also -- were you also thinking that I was

trying to make a point about the sample being degraded?

A. I don't know.

MR. NEGUS: That's probably as good time as any.

THE COURT: Take the noon recess. Remember the

admonition. Return at 1:30, please.

(Noon recess)


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4578

SAN DIEGO. CALIFORNIA. THURSDAY. DECEMBER 6. 1984. 1:35 ~

DANIEL J. GREGONIS,



as follows:

CROSS-EXAMINATION (Resumed)

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. Mr. Gregonis, behind on you on the board is Exhibit

206, a chart which we need not go into in great detail at this

point in time, but involves the reactions of ortho-tolidine and

luminol.

I just wanted to direct your attention to certain

of the substances which I have listed on the board, to wit,

algae, fungi, and some types of bacteria.·

Do those particular -- to algae, fungi, and aerobic

bacteria contain a chemical called -- called catalase?

A. Yes, they do.

Q. And if -- when you do the -- do the second step of

an ortho-tolidine will that catalase react with the

ortho-tolidine and the hydrogen peroxide and produce a color

change?

A. If there's sufficient quantity there, yes.

Q. Generally as far as in a laboratory setting is

concerned if you're using the ortho-tolidine test -- well, in

your particular -- the particular testing techniques that you


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4579

use as far as determining whether a substance is blood or not,

basically you use the combination of the ortho-tolidine test and

then the precipitin test to come to your opinion as to whether

or not a substance is in fact blood1 is that correct?


THE COURT: Did you go into this at all on direct, Mr.

Kochis?

MR. NEGUS: Yes.

MR. KOCHIS: The method that he uses to test a stain.

THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. The particular combination if -- the fact that only

human blood will -- will give you a positive reaction on the

precipitin test, that also answers for you more conclusively

than the ortho-tolidine test does the question of is the

substance blood; is that right?


Q. So if you were -- if you were just relying on

the -- the ortho-tolidine test alone, in order to exclude out

various vegetable substances which will produce a color change

with ortho-tolidine and hydrogen peroxide you essentially cook

them, right, boil them?

A. That's one way of doing it, plus letting it sit for

perhaps a week will also do it with most of those materials.

Q. But like the standard quick procedure is, just is

to cook it?

A. That is one possibility, yes.

Q. SO, for example, when Mr. Kochis was asking you


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4580

about distinguishing between tomato paste and blood, the fact

that tomatoes and tomato paste have been cooked, that's one of

the reasons why you wouldn't get a positive reaction on a tomato

paste; is that right?

A. If indeed they have been cooked, yes, that is true.

Q. Tomato paste generally has been cooked, right?

A. I don't know.

Q. Similarly, if you want to distinguish in the

laboratory various animal substances which might cause a

positive reaction with the ortho-tolidine, the easiest way to do

that is just to look at it under a microscope, right?

A. As to what type of cells and things they are, yes.

Q. I mean, if you're getting a positive reaction,

various times animal cellular material can cause a positive

reaction, but if you look at blood under a microscope you can

you can recognize the shape of a blood cell as opposed to other

kinds of cells from animals, right?

A. When you're talking about tissues, say, you give a

lung tissue or intestine or something like that, if they are

giving a positive result I'm not so sure that's not from

residual blood that's in there.

Q. Those substances I have listed under animal, those

are substances basically, are they not, that in the literature

are defined as giving positive reactions to the ortho-tolidine?


Q. And to distinguish whether you're getting one of

those other things or blood, the way to do it, the easiest way

to do it in the laboratory is just to look under a microscope,


.~, o , , ,-.:1 o :J

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1 right?

2 A. Well, first of all you're looking at a dried stain,

3 I assume, because that's what we deal with.

4 o. True.

5 A. So the red blood cells would essentially be lysed

6 so you're not going to be able to see the red blood cell as it

7 is.

8

9

10

o. Can you recognize a lysed red blood cell under a

microscope?

A. Not different from other things, not really, unless

11 it's all together still.

12 o. Does are you familiar with a chapter by a man

13 named Henry Lee in a book by Richard Saferstein entitled

14

15

16

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21

22

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24

25

-Handbook of Forensic Science- I think it is?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. And is microscopic examination the method he

recommends to distinguish amongst the various animal substances?

A. I don't recall. He may.

Q. The catalase also will react with luminol to

produce a reaction; is that right?


O. From the -- from the Lease house --

Now with respect to the -- just the general idea

that you were doing with Mr. Kochis about what's consistent with

what, some of the stains that you analyzed the only thing that

26 you were able to get out of them was there ABO type; is that

27 right?

28 A. I believe so, yes.


n u , , ,-, o , , ,o

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4582

1 o. And in this particular case if you get an ABO type

2 there is no stain in the world, using the technology that you

3 do, that's not going to be consistent with at least one of the

4 victims; is that right?

A. That is true, yes. -------------

5

6 o. Now in the Lease house did -- where -- were any of

7 the bloodstains that you obtained out of the Lease House of

8 sufficient size and quality that you were able to obtain results

9 from all the tests that you normally do in your laboratory as we

10 find it here?

11

12

A.

o. No, sir.

with respect to the piece of rope that was in the

13 closet, I believe it was J-9, did that come to you packaged in a

14

15

16

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19

20

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23

24

25

plastic bag?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. Was there -- there was -- was there enough blood

there to run all the -- all the different tests that you do?

A. Yes, there was.

Q. So the lack of results was due to something other

than -- than quantity on that particular item; is that right?


O. In general, is it considered to be not a good idea

to package blood stains in plastic?

A. In general, yes.

O. And that's because if you get any moisture in there

26 with them, that can cause them to degrade and so you'll end up

27 having results which aren't typeable?

28 A. That's true.


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4583

1 o. The axe sheath that was -- that was submitted to

2 you, I think it was J --

3

4

A.

o. 5.

5. That likewise -- that likewise came in a

5 plastic bag?

6

7

A.

o. That is true, yes.

When you -- when you got this sheath in the

8 laboratory, did it come with you -- with some sort of writing

9 indicating that one of the people who had -- who had collected

10 it thought that there was a bloodstain on it?

11 A. I don't recall whether it did or did not. It

12 doesn't -- he doesn't seem to have it in his notes.

13

14

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2·2

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27

Q. Showing you Exhibit 496, does this appear to be a

Xerox copy of what's called -- previously been identified as a

laboratory pink slip for the items that were taken from the

Lease house by Mr. Stockwell and Ogino on June the 7th, 1983?

A. Yes, it does.

MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, to that exhibit I believe I

would interpose an objection to the narrative portions of it.

The portions at the bottom are evidence tags, but

the top is simply a written narative, and it's hearsay.

MR. NEGUS: Well, it's been previously identified

THE COURT: Let me see it.

MR. NEGUS: as something that Mr. Stockwell refreshed

his recollection with and may have some admissibility for that

purpose.

It also was -- was used by Mr. Stockwell to

28 indicate that it was a piece of paper that he gave indications


',-, U , , I-' o , , Ie .:1 .l.

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27 ,--.,

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4584

to other criminalists.

THE COURT: What's that got to do with this witness?

MR. NEGUS: Well, I think it says there, if you read one

of the underlined portions there, just the question that we were

just -- I was just asking.

THE COURT: What is your question? State it again,

please.

MR. NEGUS: The original question was: Did you get any

indication from the criminalists that they thought there was

blood on the -- on the scabbard? And he said he couldn't find

any notes about it, so I was going do show him the notes.

THE COURT: What's the relevancy of his getting

information with reference to blood on the scabbard?

MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, my additional objection would be

there's no foundation that Mr. Gregonis was going through and

reading other people's notes before he did any analysis.

MR. NEGUS: Well there was some foundation from that with

Mr. Stockwell.

THE COURT: That's what I was getting at, counsel.

Without the foundation and everything I will sustain the

objection. You are going to have to start from scratch if you

wish to pursue it.

BY MR. NEGUS:

Q. Mr. Gregonis, did you in fact look over the

information that Mr. Ogino and Mr. Stockwell sent to you about

the items to be analyzed from the Lease house?

A. I don't recall whether I did or did not.

Q. You did decide for some reason or other to analyze


" U , , o (} , , ,-a J J

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2

3

4585

the scabbard; is that right?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Was that on the basis of information submitted to

4 you by Mr. Ogino and Mr. Stockwell?

5

6

7

8

9

10

A. I believe that it was probably on verbal

information rather than from written information.

Q. Well, then, did they tell you that they thought

there was blood on the scabbard?

A. As I recall, yes.

Q. Okay. Now next question: Did they tell you where

11 they thought there was blood on the scabbard?

12

13

A.

Q.

No, sir.

Where -- did you keep any notes of where you tested

14 the scabbard with ortho-tolidine?

15

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27

A. I did a general ortho-tolidine throughout the

entire axe sheath.

Q. Showing you Exhibit 50, a picture of the scabbard,

does there'S a couple of circles that have been placed on'

there. Do you -- did you place either of those on there

yourself?

A. I may have. I don't remember.

Q.

you to be

A.

Did you see anything on the scabbard that looked to

that it might be a possible bloodstain?

I saw stains on the scabbard that I tested with the

thought they could be blood, yes.

Q. Where were those stains?

A. Specifically as I tested them then I don't

28 remember. I can see stains now that I would have tested


L

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2

specifically.

Q.

4586

So, you don't have any specific recollection though

3 at the present time?

" 5

A.

Q.

No, I do not.

Did you also receive from the -- from the Lease

6 house some -- some knobs?

7

8

9

10

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

And they likewise had suspected blood on them?

Yes, they did.

Did that blood turn out to be in fact blood, but

11 not from a human being?

12 A. Okay. As far as whether it was from a human being

13 or not, I don't know. My test tor human blood were negative.

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Q. That meant that -- that the substance, whatever it

was, did not did not react the way that human blood would

when you put it in the little bowls in the precipitin test; is

that right.

A. With a nice fresh blood stain, assuming there's

enough quantity of material there, yes.

Q. Okay. But basically -- well, there was enough

quantity in this particular situation, right, because you did

some additional tests?

A. Yes, there was.

Q. And precipitin tests will give you positive results

with a stain that's years old, right?

A. That's true it does.

Q. So, assuming that the stain was less than years

28 old, it was not human; is that right?


r, u , , ,--, o , , ,-a ·c .J

4587

1 A. I can't say for in fact that it's not hUman. All I

2 can say is that my tests were negative for human blood.

3 Q. And if it were less than years old you would expect

" human blood to be positive, ri9ht?

S

6

A.

Q.

Yes, I would.

Did you also test some stains that, J-17 and K-1

7 and 2 I believe, that were taken labeled as havin9 come from the

8 driveway of the Lease House?

9

10

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

The stain from the knob, that was J-26; is that

11 correct?

12

13

A.

Q.

Yes.

The stain from the knob after two or three tests,

14 there wasn't enough there to do anything more with, is that

15

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right, you just sort of used it all up?


Q. But the ones from outside, J-17, K- 1, and K-2

18 there was essentially sufficient quantity there to do any kind

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of test that you wanted, ri9ht?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

right?

A.

Q.

ri9ht?

A.

Yes, there was.

And you in fact did that, right?

Yes, I did.

Now, with respect to those stains they were blood,

Yes, they are.

But you can positively say that they weren't human,

That is true, they are not human blood.


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O. And that's not only because it didn't react with

the precipitin test, but when you did various enzymes you got

patterns that don't exist in human beings?

A. That is correct, yes. Excuse me, but J-11, I did

not get my patterns -- I did not get any enzyme typing, but that

would certainly be true for K-l and K-2.

O. And were you able to determine what kind of animal

it was from which that blood came?

A. No, I was not.

O. Were you able to rule out certain animals?

A. BaSically, yes.

Q. Which animals did it not come from?

A. I tested these stains, J-17 and K-l and K-2,

against human and anti-swine, anti-bovine, anti-foul,

anti-rabbit, anti-cat, anti-goat, anti-horse, and anti-dog.

Q. Is that essentially the different antiserums that

you had there in the laboratory available to you?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Now the anti-foul one, do you know what particular

type of bird that would be?

A. It was basically oriented towards chickens, I

believe.

Q. Some other bird, other than a chicken, it still is

a possibility; is that right?

A. It is still a possibility as long as they aren't --

as long as they aren't related or ~- as long as they are related

in a very close fashion.

Q. SO, essentially, for example, with the humans you


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-1589

1 have problems with some of the -- certain kinds of monkeys that

2 don't normally exist in the Chino Hills. The same way would be

3 of the chickens, like it might get -- be mixed up with a turkey

4 or something like that.

5

6

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9

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11

12

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

That is true, yes.

What about peacocks? Can you rule out a peacock?

That, I do not know.

When you were up at the -- you were up at the

residence at various times; is that right?

A. I was up at the Ryen house, yes.

Q. Did you see any peacocks in the area?

A. l saw some peacocks driving in and driving out,

13 yes.

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26

Q. The button, J-6. Did that have a peculiar odor to

it when you took it out of the pillbox?

A. Odor?

Q. Yes.

A. Not that I recall, no.

Q. Did you the stains that you, that you testified

with Mr. Kochis were from the Ryen house, were those all the

stains that you analyzed from the Ryen house or just some of

them?

A. I don't know whether they were all of them or not.

I don't recall at this time. I believe -- I believe they are

all of the -A- items.

Q. Well, there was many other blood samples whose

27 origin was in the Ryen house other than the -A- series, is that

28 right?


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A. Yes, there is.

O. Now, you said that certain of the -- of the samples

that you obtained from the -- certain of the results of the

samples that you did analyze from the Ryen house appeared to you

to be mixed blood.

A. That is true,.yes.

O. Were those the ones that the genetic profile didn't

fit either Mr. Cooper or any of the five victims?

A. That is part of the reason, yes.

O. Let's focus in on A-36, I believe it was. Was that

one of the ones that you thought might be mixed?

A. Yes, it is.

O. Now, what form did that, did that come to you in?

I mean, what form was the blood in when you got it?

A. It was identified as being one metal pillbox,

identified as being blood from dresser, so I don't know whether

it was on a thread or whether it was powder.

O. Did you -'- well, sene of the items you took

pictures of before you analyzed them.

Did you do it with all of the items?

A. No, I did not.

O. Did you do it with A-36?

A. No, I did not.

O. And with -- were so~e of the items in the -A-

series that you received from Mr. Stockwell, did they have like

a series of flakes of blood in them?

A. They did have flakes of blood, yes.

O. When you were preparing your sample, did you take


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4591

care to do all of the -- all of your work from just one flake?

A.

Q.

No. The flakes were much too small to do that.

Did -- for example, on a Group II test, could you

4 have mixed several flakes, little flakes to do a Group II test?

5

6

A.

Q.

That is true, yes.

Was there any indication provided to you by Mr.

7 Stockwell that he had mixed up blood from a bunch of different

8

9

10

sources and put it in the same pillbox?

A. No, there was not.

Q. In the -- in the months amongst the various

11 enzymes that you analyzed, some of them will last longer at room

12 temperature than others; is that right?

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Q. Every enzyme will last longer in a, in a frozen

state than it would just a dry state; is that right?

A. That is true.

Q. And all of the enzymes, if they get wet they're

going to disintegrate very quickly; is that right, if they stay

with it?

A. Basically, yes.

Q. Now, looking at the chart behind you, Exhibit 611,

there appears to be various times given for -- ·W· being weeks,

months, for the various enzymes given, looks to be blue crayon.

Do those appear to be accurate figures for how long

the various enzymes will last and still be typeable in a dry

26 state?

27

28

A.

Q.

Yes, they do.

And would all of the ones that are marked with a


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black -Y- still be typeable after a period of a year, or years,

if they were kept, from the time that they were threaded, in a

frozen state and drawn?

A. With the exception of Gc, yes.

O. You would disagree with the Gc then?

A. You may get the Gc, but I don't -- most of the time

I don't think you would.

o. How long would you -- would Gc normally last in a

frozen state?

A. I would say probably six months.

o. And as far as the column in green in the right-hand

side, with -E- meaning easy, -M- meaning medium, and -H- meaning

hard, would those be fair approximations for the ones that are

given of how easy it is to essentially detect, using

electrophoretic means, the various enzymes?

A. Well, again, with the exception of Hp, or the

haptoglobin on the bottom, I believe, I believe that would be

rather normally easy to detect because it is pretty hearty.

o. Okay. With the exception of haptoglobin you would

agree then with the other ones that are in fact characterized.

A. Yes, I WOUld.

o. Turning your attention then to the various samples

from the Ryen house that were submitted to you, that -- were

there any of them that would have appeared to be -- of the

results you got on them, would have been consistent with them

having not been quickly frozen and properly preserved?

A. On the -A- series?

O. Now, any of the different ones you got.


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A. Well, on the A-5, A-8 and A-IO series, I would say

those are consistent with not being quickly frozen and

preserved.

Q. Those would be the various items of bedding?


Q. What about any of the other, any of the other items

from the Ryen house. I believe there was some things taken from

some furniture, NNN through RRR,

A. Yes. The NNN, 000, QQQ, RRR, and the SSS stains

are all consistent with not being frozen right away.

Q. And you, yourself, collected in the laboratory,

some stains from the wall that was taken out of the, out of the

Ryen house and labeled them SSS-l through whatever; is that

right?

A. That is true.

Q. And do you know for a fact that those were -- those

stains were not particularly well preserved up until the spring

of '84; is that right?

A. That is true.

Q. And the results you got were consistent with that.

A. Yes.

Q. Now, in addition to wetness, and time, will just

heat destroy the usefulness of certain blood samples?

A. Yes, it will.

Q. Por example, if you were to take blood samples and

put them in a closed attic where, in San Bernardino during the

summer months without any air-conditioning, where temperatures

would get up to 120 or so degrees, would that have the effect of


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4594

1 hastening the demise of the enzymes even in a dry state?

2

3

A.

Q.

Yes, it would.

And the NNN through RRR series that you tested --

4 well, first of all, the ABO type, the antigens, they'll last for

5 years sometimes just in a dried state; is that right?

6

7

8

A. Yes.

Q. Antibodies that are from the serum that you

likewise test go rather quickly. I mean, within a month or SOl

9 is that right?

10

11

A.

Q.

Yes, they do.

But the antigens, it would not be unusual, if it

12 was just kept in dry climate at room temperature, two or three

13 days, years later, still be to able to get ABO type off of it?

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Q. The items that were removed from -- various items

what were labeled as items of furniture from the, from the NNN

through RRR series, you were unable on some of those to even

obtain ABO results1 is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You weren't able to get any enzyme results off of

them; is that right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And had they been just kept in a dry attic, without

excessive temperature, would you expect to get, at least get ABO

after eight months; is that right?

A. Yes, I would.

Q. In the testimony that you -- when you were talking

28 with Mr. Kochis, both of you I believe used the word -deposited-


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4595

1 as a description of how the blood got to the spot where it was

2 found.

3 What did you mean by that?

4 A. Well, there was a number of ways that you can have

5 blood placed on an item?

6 o. I take it then that what you are saying then is

7 your particular tests don't give you any real information about

8 how the blood got there, merely whether it was consistent with

9

10

11

coming from one person or another; is that right?


o. So when you, for example, used the phrase

12 -deposited by Mr. Cooper-, all that meant really was that the

13 blood could have come from Mr. Cooper, not Mr. Cooper shed it or

14 put it there; is that correct?

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Q. In doing your analyses, did you attempt to come up

with a more definitive idea of how individual items that you

analyzed were in fact deposited or got to the place where they

were found? That is, just it could have come from a certain

person?

A. As far as the serological examination?

O. Well, as far as the examination that you were doing

of these particular samples.

A.

Q.

Of which samples are you talking about, Mr. Negus?

All the different samples that you analyzed

26 serologically that came from the Ryen house.

27 A. Well, as far as the -A- items, since I did not

28 collect those I do not know really where they came from so I


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couldn't do that analysis.

As far as the S, or triple S items, yes, I tried to

document by photographs and such as to where the blood actually

came from on the wall.

Q. Of the blood on the wall, you took what, thirteen,

thirteen, I think, samples of blood, and one sample of wall that

appeared not to have blood on it, as a control.

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Of those thirteen, three of them you couldn't get

any ABO type on; is that right?

A. Two of them actually. One I tested twice and got

it the second time.

Q. That particular wallboard that was being stored

actually in the laboratory, not in an air-conditioned building;

is that right?


Q. Do you have an explanation as to why you weren't

able to get the ABO off the two that you didn't?

A. Possibly just the age of the -- age or the size of

the sample.

Q. Okay. Well, age, it was approximately eight months

old when you decided to collect it, right?

A. Eight, nine months old, yes.

Q. Were you able to get any of the -- on any of those

samples were you able to get any information other than just ABO

type?

A. Okay. I did not try any other examinations.

Q. Didn't you do -- forgive me, if I might.


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4597

A. That was according to my summary.

O. All of those that you got a result on were type A,

right?


O. Were you able to -- were you able to determine that

all but two of the samples that you got from the NNN through RRR

series were in fact human blood?


O. And of the two that you were not able to determine

that, after you had done some other tests on it, there was not

enough, enough left to get a result on; is that right?


Q. Is it also correct that in general, you would

expect transferrin to be the easiest enzyme, or in this

particular case, serum protein, to get an answer back from?

That is, it would survive the most abuse; is that right?

A. Yes, it would.

Q. And, so, you attempted on some of the, on some of

the samples in that particular series to get transferrin and you

were unable to get it; is that right?


Q. Of the, of the two, of the two samples that you

were able to get ABO types on, both of those were labeled as

having come from this dresser that's between A-2 and A-3l on the

diagram; is that right?

A. Okay. As to which dresser they're talking about, I

don't know. But they're labeled as -metal pillbox containing

---, -metal pillbox identified as containing blood from sliding


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door from dresser.-

Q. Oh. Sliding door. Okay.

Well, that's possible that could have come -- you

actually saw the furniture in place at the Ryen house, right?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And there was then on this particular item no

sliding door but there was a sliding door over in the area where

A-36 was: is that right?


Q. And as to that particular test you got a -- the

reaction you got was -- could have been from an A antigen: is

that right?

A. On one of them, yes.

Q. NNN-l. NNN-I, Nancy, Nancy, Nancy 1 and 3.

A. I believe NNN is a type B, but let me check my

original notes.

Q. You are looking at different charts.

A. NNN-I is consistent with the type B, NNN-3 is

consistent with a type A.

Q. You can't say for sure because you couldn't do the

antibody reverse; is that right?

A. Well, it indicates a type B and type A. To

absolutely confirm it you would have to do the reverse.

Q. Wouldn't that change an opinion, some opinion at

some pOint in time?

A. That's an A to a B. I made a transfer error fr02

my original worksheet to my summary sheet.

Q. Now, before you -- any of those in the NNN, Nancy,

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4599

Nancy, Nancy through Robert, Robert, Robert series that you

noted yourself or took pictures of, or made any sort of notes,

as to what type of blood they were before' you analyzed them?

A. No, sir. Again, I did not collect those, so I

5 wouldn't have.

6 Q. So, you are telling me that you don't ever try and

7 figure out what you have back in the laboratory, it is up to the

8

9

guy that collects it. Is that the way it works?

A. Well, I don't -- I can't do the analysis as to

10 where it came from if I don't collect it myself.

11 Q. No. I'm just asking you about, noting, you know,

12 was it flakes, what shape of flakes, that sort of thing?

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A. I don't note that, no.

Q. And after you've done the analysis, essentially the

sample is transformed so that you can't go back later and check,

is that right?

A. That is true, yes, I would say far as what it is,

flakes or something like that, that's true.

Q. Now, as to the ones that you collected yourself and

analyzed, not only --

You took, what, 15, 20 different photographs during

the process?

A. I took a few. I don't know if it was 15 or 20.

Q. But, you actually also labeled right on the, right

on the surface of the -- of the item, you know, what you were

26 taking, where you were taking it from, right?

27

28

A. That is correct.

MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, I'm going to object. This is

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4600

beyond the scope of any direct, has been for some period of

time.


MR. NEGUS: It would seem that it would be -- that if he

opens up the subject of blood taken from the Ryen bedroom that

we can't just pick and chose as to which ones he wants and which

ones he doesn't want, that the whole Ryen bedroom is opened up

as far as analysis of blood is concerned.

MR. KOCHIS: Well, maybe as to analysis, but I didn't ask

any questions about collection or his presence at that location.

MR. NEGUSr He used several times -deposited-, they were

various -- I think he used -- they used those particular phrases

of -it got there-, where it came from.

THE COURT: Ask your question again, Mr. Negus. I have

forgotten what's pending specifically now.

MR. NEGUS: I was just asking -- The question is

basically:

In collecting from the wallboards that were removed

from the house from the south wall, you made sure to take

photographs of the drops of blood as they were in place before

you collected them, and you also marked on the wallboard itself

for anybody to see where they came from; is that right?

MR. KOCHIS: And that was the question I object to

because that's certainly beyond the scope of any direct or any

issue.

THE COURT: If you want to finish your cross, I will let

you go back to it on direct.

MR. NEGUS: I can wait a couple months, that's fine. It


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doesn't -- it's not of great moment at the moment. I can come

back to it. I would submit it is within the scope.

O. As to -- as to the the various items of bedding

that you removed, you ran at least most of those for

transferrin; is that right?


Q. Some of those you got a result that you labeled as

a -CB-?-; is that right?

A. That's essentially an inconclusive result, yes.

Q. What does -CB-?-?

A. Well, to me I got some patterns that could be a CB.

However, it could be anything because it isn't inconclusive,

it's not strong enough or clear enough to call it.

Q. So, you have a separate category then of it looks

like it might be but you can't be sure?

A. That's an inconclusive essentially.

Q. Did you do anything with those particular stains to

try and and retest it, do anything to treat the stains to try

and sort it out?

A. I retested many of them for transferrin to try to

sort it out.

o. Well, did you treat the samples, I mean -- well, if

you have -- if you have something that looks like a CB but maybe

isn't, is there things that you can do to the samples, as we

said before, to freshen it up?

A. It's possible, yes.

O. Did you do that?

A. ~o, sir, I did not.


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O. Did -- did A-37 appear to you to be a mixed stain?

A. It could be because of a weaker A antigen present.

O. And didn't get any antibodies?

A. That's a possibility, but that's not my -- plain --

what I'm looking at plainly to do that.

THE COURT: We can take a recess any time.

MR. NEGUS: Okay, fine. I'm about to shift gears.

THE COURT: Let's take the afternoon recess.

(Recess taken.)

BY MR. NEGUS:

O. The in your laboratory you received at some

point in time an item No. CC; is that right?


O. And item No. CC is this Fruit of the Loom T-shirt

which I have in my hand; is that right?

A. Yes, it is.

O. On June the 22nd, 1983, did you take that T-shirt

and clip some samples from it?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Okay. There -- First off, there appears to be some

stains on the front of that particular T-shirt.

Did you -- did you test those stains with

ortho-tolidine?

A. Yes, I did.

O.

different

And you got, I guess -- looks like there is three

there's three different areas that are labeled

on -- on the T-shirt; one here, one where you've cut something


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out of, and another one you have -control-.

Did you test each of the stains in those three

areas for with the ortho-tolldine?

A. Yes, I did.

o. With respect to the control section, was that a

negative result?

A. Yes, it was.

O. Did you test the stains that you can still see

there on the T-shirt with the ortho-tolidine?

A. I believe so. I believe I did, yes.

O. Did they give a positive reaction?

A. Yes, they did.

O. And you also apparently cut certain parts of them

out for further analysis: is that right?

A. That's correct.

Q. And did the parts that you cut out likewise give a

positive reaction with the ortho-tolidine?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. Now, did you then go ahead and on the hard parts

that you cut out did you go ahead and do some further -- some

further tests?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. The stains that you had, when you tested them could

you tell if they appeared to be relatively fresh?

A. To begin with?

O. Yeah, when you clipped them out and started testing

them.

A. Well, there -- As far as what stage in my test?


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4604

In the beginning.

At the beginning I couldn't tell whether they were

3 fresh or not.

Q. Okay. Well, you tested that T-shirt in a series of

5 tests from June the 2nd to June the 24th; is that right?

6 A. I also did some testing on it I believe through

7 this year also, so

8

9

Q. Okay. Well, back in -- the testing you did back in

June of 1983, was there enough sample in that area you cut-out

10 right there where your initials are to do a full range of tests?

11

12

A.

Q.

Yes, there were.

If -- Well, did you get results on all the tests

13 that you did?

14

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A. No, I did not.

Q. You got results on some of them though; is that

right?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. The you got results on your, basically on Group

II and Group IV?


Q. And also ABO antigens?

A. That is correct.

Q. The results that you -- that you got, were they

consistent with the blood of Kevin Cooper?

A. No, they are not.

Q. Were they consistent with the blood of any of the

27 victims?

28 A. Yes, they are.


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4605

Which victim or victims?

They are consistent with Doug Ryen.

One can -- Well, if that shirt were discovered at a

4 roadside approximately three, two to three days after the

5 murders, and if the spot where it was found was a spot that at

6 least at nighttime got somewhat damp, would the results that you

7 got have been consistent with that having been thrown out there

8

9

10

on the night of the murders?

A. I believe so, yes.

Q. That is, you could have seen the same kind of

11 sample degradation that you saw in a damp spot even if the thing

12 was collected only three days after the murders?

13

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26


Q. Obviously as far as just -- as far as the types of

lives of the enzymes and proteins that we were talking about

earlier, anything less than sort of indoors, room temperature,

in optimal conditions can significantly lessen the life of those

particular enzymes; is that right?

A. Yes, it can.

Q. And particularly like being outside can do that as

well; is that right?

A.· Yes, it can.

Q. The results then that you got were -- you got a

positive reaction to both A and H antigens; is that correct?


Q. The H antigens, a positive reaction on that is not

27 inconsistent with the blood coming from a person who is a type

28 A; is that right?


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4606

A. No, it is not.

o. That is, the particular serums that you use will

to determine the A will sometimes also react with -- give a

reaction for H; is that right? It's got to do with the

specificity of the serums?

A. Well, the anti-H will sometimes react with an A or

B blood.

o. So, the mere fact that you got both the reaction

with the A and the H doesn't necessarily indicate that there is

any mixed blood involved?

A. No, sir, it does not.

o. You also got the EAP type of BA, ADA type of 1, AX

type of 1, the peptidase A type of 1, and the CA II type of 11

is that correct?


o. And all of those were consistent, among other

folks, with Doug Ryen?


O. At the -- the laboratory number before that, an

item BB, was that -- was that a towel?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. On that -- on that particular towel, was that

labeled as having come from the same spot that CC was?

A. Well, as fa'r. as my notes reflect, it's labeled as

being a stapled sealed paper bag identified as containing a

towel from the roadway.

O. Was that particular towel, did that appear to have

some stains on it?


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1

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o.

4607

Yes, it did.

And they gave a positive reaction with the

3 ortho-tolidine?

4

5

A.

o. Yes, it did.

You attempt -- was there -- were there a large

6 quantity of those stains, or they were just small?

7

8

9 did

A. It was -- Well, at this point I don't remember.

O. Well, apparently whatever stain it was that you

you did a test for hUman blood and a test for ABO on it

10 and then you ran out; is that right?

11

12

13

14

A.

O.

A.

Q.


So, it couldn't have been very big?

Obviously. Yes.

The results you got with the -- with the -- with

15 the ABO and the human were essentially negative, is that so?

16 You didn't get any reactions; is that right?

17

18

19

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25


Q. So that would have been consistent with a bunch of

different things, including animal blood.

Q. I suppose it's possible that it was animal blood,

yes.

Q. Degraded human blood so that it was too degraded to

give you reactions?

A. That's a possibility, yes.

Q. And also apparently on your notes you thought that

26 there was at ,least a possibility that the reaction could have

27 been from minerals that were present there in the soil; is that

28 right?


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Q.

4608


But getting back to the T-shirt that's on the board

3 there, item CC, because of the positive reactions you got on

4 some of the other tests you can say for sure that at least the

5 stains that you did ABO and electrophoretic testing on, that was

6 in fact blood?

1

8

A.

Q.

Yes, sir.

Did you also receive an item of evidence that was

9 marked as NN-2, a piece of white cloth with a suspected

10 bloodstain?

11

12

A.

Q.

Yes, I did.

Did that particular bloodstain -- did it turn out

13 to be in fact a human bloodstain?

14

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21

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And was the was that particular bloodstain

consistent with having come from a type B type person?

A. I don't know if you can really make any statements

about the ABO blood type I did.

Q. Well, when you did the Lattice test on it you got a

reaction with the A antibody and none of the other one, right?

A. That is correct.

Q. So, that would be at least somewhat consistent --

that would be what you would expect if you had a B ty-pe person,

right?

A. That's what I would expect, yes.

Q. Now the reason that you hesitated was that for some

reason or other you didn't get the antigen to come out1 is that

28 right?


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4609

A. There was a negative -- as far as the forward tests

go there was a negative as far as I'm concerned.

Q. So, is that like with the -- with the antigens, it

looks like it might be a B but you can't say for sure?

A. No. I would say that you can't make as strong a

statement when you only have the antiboydy as you can with you

only have the antigens.

Q. Do you know why the forward didn't work?

A. Possibly not enough antigen present. Also at this

time I was using a technique which is not as sensitive towards

the H antigen as other techniques, so it's possible the H

antigen was there as it is in NN-l.

Q. Well, you?

A. There's a number of possibilities.

Q. Yeah, but NN-l is not from the same piece of

evidence that NN-2 is, is it?

A. No, it is not.

Q. I mean you can't make inferences from separate

pieces of evidence one to the other as to what the other one

would be, can you?

A. The only thing that was related to me is that these

two pieces of evidence are somehow related, from the same person

or whatever.

Q. Did you ever attempt to go back and redo NN-2?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did you also receive -- from the automobile an an

item V-IS, which was a plastic bag with some napkins in it?

A. Yes, I did.


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4610

1 Q. And did those napkins -- there were, what, five

2 different napkins there?

3

4

A.

Q.

Yes, there were.

And they had some -- some stains on them, white

5 appearing type stains, some sort of biological stain?

6 A. I don't remember whether they were white or not,

7 but they appeared to be biological stains, yes.

8

9

10

Q.

A.

Obviously they didn't look to be blood?


Now, in fact did -- on microscopic analysis were

11 you essentially able to exclude them as being semen stains and

12 establish that they appeared to be the type of stains that you

13 would expect if somebody blew their nose in the napkin?

14 A. Upon microscopical and chemical tests, they

15 appeared to be a mucus type material.

16 Q. Now, with respect to any sort of human tissue, it's

17 not just -- it's not just semen and blood and saliva that have

18 these various proteins and enzymes; all different kinds of human

19 tissue has some different kinds of enzymes and proteins in it;

20 right?

21

22

A.

Q.


And using some of the same techniques one can

23 one can make some -- come to some knowledge excluding some

24 people, as possible knowledge even from something like when you

25 blow your nose, right?

26

27

A.

Q.

That is true, yes.

When well, what kind of -- what kind of -- which

28 enzymes can you get from the sort of cells that come from --

COMPGTERIZED TRANSCRIPT

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4611

that you found in a nose blow?

A. I don't know all the enzymes that you can get. I

believe that you can, from my testing at least, you can get the

EsD the PGM and the PEPA.

Q. This particular stain came to you in a sealed

plastic bag1 is that right?

A. It was a taped sealed plastic bag containing five

napkins, white napkins.

Q. Is it just as bad practice to keep other sorts of

body tissues in sealed plastic bags as it is blood?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Doing that can easily lead to degredation, right?

A. It can lead to degredation, yes.

Q. Now, that particular stain, you were only able to

get two out of the four enzymes that you tried, is that right?


Q. Is that finding consistent with the sample having

degraded from being in a plastic bag?

A. First of all, I don't know that much about the

level of the enzymes that I didn't get in mucus type materials

to be able to answer that, so I don't know.

Q. Well, you know that on other occasions you have

gotten PGM and CA II out of that type material1 is that right?

A. I believe, yes.

Q. And you weren't able to in this particular case?

A. That is correct.

Q. Does PGM in other cells last approximately the same

length of time it does in blood?


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4612

A. It lasts usually a shorter period of time, but it's

relative to the other enzymes. I'd say it's relatively the

same.

Q. Well, how long would you expect, if it were kept

not in a plastic bag, just out in the -- out in a normal room

temperature at a dry state, would you expect a stain such as

that to last?

A. Again, I really don't know because I don't know the

levels of the enzyme to begin with.

Q. As it turned out, the particular -- your particular

analysis of that stain was not able to exclude very many people

in the world; is that right?


Q. That is, the -- you could exclude Mr. Cooper from

it; is that right?

A. Yes, I can.

Q. But, with respect to the white population, it could

have come from approximately 70 percent of the white population;

is that correct?


Q. From the blood that you received from Mr. Ogino off

of the off of the hatchet, in fact in addition to the -- to

the ABO testing that you did, you tested for -- there was enough

there to test for all of the other enzymes and antibodies that

you normally test for; is that right?

A. There was enough material there. As to whether it

was blood or not, I don't know. But there was enough material

there to test for all those.


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4613

Q. Okay. Well, did the -- you did get a positive

ortho-to1idine and precipitin test on that material, is that

right?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. SO that would -- that would indicate you got blood,

is that right?

A. Blood of hUman origin, yes.

Q. But all of the other tests other than the one

-antigen test were inconclusive1 is that right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And even the --even the ABO test as it -- as it --

as it turned out is -- you can't have a great deal of confidence

in that particular result, can you?

A. I believe you can, yes.

Q. Why is that?

A. Because I have blood of human origin and I had a

very clear result as far as the ABO.

Q. Didn't get any antibodies, right?

A. That is correct.

Q. So you just got a B -- you got a reaction to the B,

the antiserum for the B antigen?

A. That is correct.

Q. Do you feel that that, given the procedures you

were doing at that point in time is, is a clear unambiguous

result?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Were you given a history of that particular sample

to aid you in your analysis of it?


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A.

Q.

4614

Yes, I was.

And that was, it was found in a field in some grass

3 next to a pasture where horses were kept on the Sunday afternoon

4 after the crime?

S

6

A.

Q.

Yes.

The results that you got on L-4, suspected blood

7 from a full Oly Gold beer can, is that result a little unusual?

8

9

A.

Q.

Not really, no.

You couldn't get ABO but you were able to get PGM.

10 I mean, is that normally what one would expect?

11

12

A.

Q.

It happens occasionally.

Why do you -- why do you suspect you didn't get ABO

13 on that?

14

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26

A. I don't know.

Q. Well, we will will moisture effect eventually

ABO results just like it does the various enzymes?

A. It can, yes.

Q. That particular item, you, yourself, actually

observed at the scene; is that right?


Q. The L-4 came from the area that's been circled on

Court's Exhibit 195; is that right?

A. On the can itself?

Q. On the can, right.

A. Yes, I believe so. If that's the can.

Q. Well, you saw, in the Ryen refrigerator, on June

27 the 6th, some cans such as those in the refrigerator, right?

28 A. I believe so, yes.


4615

1 o. Okay. And you tested them with your ortho-tolidine

2 and it turned out to be at least possibly what, blood?

3

4

A.

Q.

That is true, yes.

When you, when you saw the cans, did they appear to

5 have condensation on them?

6

7

A.

o. Yes, they did.

I take it that condensation can, on a can, if it

8 is, can be, for example, the cause of the inconclusive results

9

10

11

that you got with the ABO and the EsD.


o. When you saw those particular, when you saw those

12 particular stains, did they appear that there was enough stain

13 on the can to do your full -- your full range of tests?

14

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28

A. Not on the can, no.

O. If you had taken the stain that is circled on the

the side of the frig, and tested that in addition to the stains

on the cans, would you have had enough to get full tests?

A. Assuming that was blood I believe I would have.

O. Well, you tested with ortho-tolidine and that

likewise gave a positive reaction, did it not?

A. I don't believe I tested that.

O. Did you collect it?

A. No, I did not.

O. Well, when you were doing the -- when you were

examining those particular cans, was Mike Hall there?

A. I believe he was at the residence, but I don't

believe that he was there when I was examining the cans, no.

O. How about Gale Duffy, was he there?


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A •

o.

Yes, he was.

Did he point them out to you?

Yes, he did.

4616

Can you say for sure that Kike Hall wasn't there

5 when you were doing the tests?

6

7

8

A. No, I can't.

Q. Did you -- I have People's -- a piece of paper

which I've marked as Exhibit 612, a blank piece of paper.

9 When you have -- when you have samples that are

10 somewhat limited in the quantity that you have so that you

11 can -- basically you can just tell by looking generally whether

12 there is going to be enough of a sample for you to do a full

13 series of tests or not; is that right?

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

A. In general, yes.

Q. When you have a sample that you suspect is blood,

and it is limited, basically before you do anything to it you

want to make sure that it is in fact blood and human blood or

else all the other tests are basically a waste of timeJ is that

right? •


Q. And, so it is -- in any stain you want to do first

the ortho-tolidine and precipitin test; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. That particular analysis, the ortho-tolidine

analysis essentially costs you nothing. I mean, there is so

26 little involved that it doesn't cost anything.

27

28

A.

Q.

In essence, yes.

Precipitin tests costs considerably less blood than


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4617

1 a complete ABO or complete, you know, one group electrophoretic

2 run, is that right?

3

4

A.

Q.

It doesn't take as much blood, that is correct.

Other than A-4l, and I'm going to, if it is just to

5 make it easier while you look, write on the board for you, if it

6 is without objection, A-42.

7 There was not enough to do a complete set of tests,

8 is that right?

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

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18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

That is true.

B-ll and B-12, not enough.

Again, that is true.

E-5 and E-6.

Again, that's true.

J-6.

That is true.

J-16.

Yes.

Let's see. L-3 and L-4.

That is true, yes.

C-4, C-5.

That is true, yes.

0-13, 0-14.

That is true.

And W-1, W-2, W-3, W-5 and W-7?

Yes, sir.

Now, let's see. As to these various ones, leaving

27 aside the initial tests which you have to do for everyone, the

28 ortho-tolidine and the species tests, how many tests could you


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4618

get out of A-42?

A. How many tests, including counting the enzymes

separately or together?

Q. Well, a Group I test, you do one enzyme, two

enzymes, three enzymes; you get -- it costs the same amount, the

same amount if you use up the same amount of sample.

A. Yes.

Q. Let's just talk about the tests where you do it in

terms of an item of sample consumption.

By the way, the ABO forward and reverse comes out

to just about as much as an electrophoretic run; is that right?

Little bit less?

A. Slightly less, but it is

Q. Essentially the same?

A. Yes.

Q. So, let's count the forward and reverse as Group I,

Group II, Group III, and any electrophoretic run is another

test.

A. Okay. As far as looking at it that way, as far as

the quantities of tests used, I would say three on A-42.

Q. B-l1?

A. Two. Or, excuse me. If you ignore the

ortho-tolidine and human, it would be one.

Q. B-12?

A. Two.

Q. E-5?

A. One.

Q. E-6?


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4619 ,~

1 A. One. r .... · 2 Q. J-6?

3 A. Two.

4 Q. J-16?

5 A. One.

6 Q. L-3?

1 A. None.

8 Q. L-4?

9 A. Two. .~!". ... ::.'

10 Q. C-4?

11 A. One.

12 Q. C-5?

13 A. One.

14 Q. D-13? f"" ,

15 A. One. ,-, 16 Q. D-14? U 11 A. Two. , 18 Q. W-l?

, 19 A. Two. ,-, 20 Q. W-2? iJ 21 A. Also two.

, 22 Q. W-3?

, 23 A. One.

,-, 24 Q. W-5?

.:1 25 A. One. .0 26 Q. And W-1?

.0

21 A. Four. "-/

28 Q. Now, we've already discussed, I believe that you

.""-


4620

1 can, you know, rank not only individual tests like PGN but a

2 whole group of tests in terms of their informative power or

3 discriminatory power; is that right?

4 A. That is true.

5 o. And, you know, you also can -- you also can rank

6 them in terms of the likelihood that you are going to get a

7 result; is that right?

8

9

A.

o. That is true.

Okay. Arranged in terms of likelihood of result,

10 ABO is the most likely?

11 A. I would say transferrin is probably the most

12 likely.

13

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o. Transferrin, then ABO?

A. Given that you have got the age of stain, that's

too old to get the transferrin.

o. Okay. So less than a year, transferrin.

A. Probably.

O. Then ABO.

A. Yes.

o. Haptoglobin.

A. Yes.

o. And then essentially I guess what, the Group I

would be the most likely next, the most likely to give results?

A. No. I think the Group II you are most likely to

get some results, yes.

o. Okay. But of the Group II result, the one you

would be mostly to get would be the ADA and AX.

A. Yes.


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4621

1 Q. The ADA and AR, they're the least informative of

2 all.

3 A. They're also the least informative as compared

4 against say PGK and EsD. They are definitely the least

5 informative.

6 Q. And so taking the more informative of the tests,

7 the PGK is more likely to give you a result, for example, than

8 EAP?

9 A. Than EAP or Group?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. It is heartier enzyme. So, yes.

12 Q. Then between the other two, essentially EAP and the

13 Group IV are more or less equal?

14

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A. As far as age?

O. Yes.

A. Well, as far as kind of balanced between what

information you are going to get out of it, or can get out of it

really.

If you have a black variant that is -- and you

think that the blood could have been deposited by that person

with the black variant, then the Group IV is more important.

Q. I am not talking about the informative, just in

terms of likelihood of getting a result. There's two separate

things, right? Is that basically true?

A. Basically, yeah. I think if you take the Group II

and the Group IV together, just getting the results, they'd be

27 equal.

28 o. Now, so, as you sort of plan your strategy for, for


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4622

the testing, you basically may have to devise a different

strategy if there is reason to suspect that your sample may have

been subject to age, heat, whatever, than if you can be

reasonably sure that it is relatively fresh; is that right?


O. SO, of these particular samples, based upon what

you were able to glean from their history, would it be fair to

say that L-3 and L-4 were samples, having been found

respectively outside and in, on a condensed beer can, that you

have to pay attention to the factors of degradation?


O. I will put a check mark in that column.

W-l, W-2, W-5 through W-7, likewise because they

were found in a closed-up car in an area where you know there

was a considerable amount of moisture in the air. At that point

in time you also have to keep that in mind with them; is that

right?

A. Yes, you would.

O. But with the other ones that's not going to be a

problem basically.

A. Shouldn't be, no.

O. I will put check marks.

So, we have done basically two categories, the ones

with checks marks we have to take into account the effect of

age, heat and what have you, and the ones without checks marks

where you don't~ Is that fair to say?


O. Now, in dealing with your information, A-42, in


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dealing with your selection of tests, did you pick the ones that

had -- the three tests that had the greatest power to inform in

this particular case?

A. I think if you look at the case as a whole, no.

Q. What about B-ll. Did you take the test, the one

test that had the most informative power for that particular

sample?

MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, I am going to object as not

being relevant at this point. He hasn't done a more complete

profile on certain people and he might not have had it at the

time he ran the test. Which test he chose and the order ~ould

not be relevant.

THE COURT: How does it in any way effect his

credibility? I can think of no other way you can get this in.

MR. NEGUS: Well, it certainly affects his common sense.

That is the sort of thing serologists normally do.

THE COURT: No. I will sustain the objection, sir.

MR. NEGUS: Could we -- that was how I was going to

finish off the rest of the day. I have other charts.

THE COURT: Go on to other things, if you wish.

Something else?

MR. NEGUS: Well, it is only seven more minutes. I

haven't got the charts done up for the next

THE COURT: We can break now, if you prefer.

Take the rest of the week off.

Did you have something?

MR. KOTTMEIER: Yes, your Honor. I just wanted to be on

the record as far as the exhibits which are going to be --


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MR. NEGUS: We can do that after the jury leaves.

THE COURT: You wish to remain in session?

MR. KOTTMEIER: No, your Honor.

4624

THE COURT: Okay. I will give you the rest of the week

5 off. I am working and they're working and so you are not all

6 off. We don't choose Friday for our golf matches.

7 Remember the admonition, don't talk about the case

8 with any person or let anybody discuss it with you, or express

9 or form any opinion on the matter until it is finally submitted

10 to you.

11 We appreciate your promptness in being here at all

12 times, ladies and gentlemen. Have a nice weekend. See you next

13 Monday at 9:30.

14 (The Jury retires from the courtroom.)

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THE COURT: You wish to be heard on that further, Mr.

Negus?

MR. NEGUS: Can I wait until I read it in the transcript

and come back, if I want to be heard further, and talk to you

about it on Monday morning before we start?

THE COURT: Sure. Mr. Kottmeier, something on the

exhibits?

MR. KOTTMEIER: Yes, your Honor. All I want to do was to

have noted on the record the exhibits that I was requesting to

be released temporarily.

THE COURT: Have you discussed it with counsel?

MR. KOTTMEIER: Yes. I apologize, these aren't in

28 exactly the right order,


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THE COURT: That's all right. Take your time.

MR. KOTTMEIER: I have requested Exhibit 160, which is

the paper bag with the Star Trek towel. Exhibit 173, and that

is a sixteen by twenty photograph. And then the following are 7

eight by ten photographs: 181, 182, 187, 194, 197, 199, 200.

And the remainder are three by five photographs: 207, 214, 233,

242, 246, 251, 255 and 461.

All of these are just general pictures of the

exterior of the scene. We have duplicates in our files, both

sides do in the case. There is no problem.

THE COURT: All right. So you wish to remove those from

the possession of the clerk and to keep them in your possession

to return them next Monday morning?

MR. KOTTMEIER: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. NEGUS: No, that is fine with me.

THE COURT: All right. The clerk will mark them out, Mr.

Kottmeier, and check them back in next week.

Anything further?

MR. KOTTMEIER: No, your Honor.

MR. NEGUS: Thank you.

THE COURT: Al~ right. Have a nice nice weekend.

(Adjournment.)


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WordPress.com · 2017-03-17 · KEVIN COOPER, Defendant-Appellant. FROM SAN DIEGO COUNTY HON. RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE San Diego County Superior Court Case No. CR 72787 REPORTERS