© MediatorAcademy.com 2016 All Rights Reserved · Bernie Mayer Aled Davies: Hi, everyone. My name is Aled Davies ... , but would have been to say, "John, for better or worse, you

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TheConflictParadox

BernieMayer

AledDavies: Hi,everyone.MynameisAledDavies,founderofMediatorAcademy.com,homeof thepassionatemediatoror thepassionate conflict specialist. This iswherewe interview thevery best thought leaders, practitioners from around the world. We learn about newopportunitiesinourfield,aswellashowtodevelopourthinking,developourselves,sharpenourskills,sothatwecanbemoreeffectiveatwhatwedo,helpingothersinconflict.

In this interview, Iwant to learnabout thedilemmaswe faceas conflict specialistsandhowtonavigatetheseparadoxestohelpusimproveoureffectiveness.Myguesttodayisaniconintheworldofconflictresolutionwithoveraquarter-centuryofexperienceinthefield.Hewasafounding partner at CDR Associates, the internationally-recognised mediation and conflictresolutionorganisation,andoriginallytrainedasapsychotherapist.

He'sworkedacrosstheglobeasamediator,facilitator,teacher,trainer,disputesystemsdesigner,programmeadministrator.He's a true scholar, aswell as a leadingpractitioner in thefield.EarninghisPhDinsocialworkwithanemphasisonconflictresolution,he'snowProfessorofDisputeResolutionatWernerInstitute,CreightonUniversity.

He'stheauthorofmanyworks, including 'BeyondNeutrality'and 'StayingwithConflict',bothpublishedbyJossey-Bass,andhismostrecentwork,whichwillbethefocusofthisinterview,'TheConflictParadox:SevenDilemmasattheCoreofDisputes'.It'sarealpleasuretoonceagainwelcomeDr.BernieMayerontoMediatorAcademy.

Bernie,welcome.

BernieMayer: Thankyou.It'sverygoodtobeback.

Aled: Lovely to have you back. Really appreciate it. Your last interview was a real success,provokedalotofdiscussionanddebate,andI'msurethisonewillaswell.


What I likeabout thewayyouwrite,particularly in 'TheConflictParadox' is the storiesthatyoutell.Ilovestories.Ithinkweallareengagedbystories,particularlywhentheyarestoriesthattheauthortellsabouthisorherownexperiences,wherethey'veeither failedmiserablyorhavecocked-up in someway,buthave learned from it.Right? I think itnormalises - you think,"Oh.ThankGod.I'mnotjusttheonlyone.Bernieisfallibleaswell."

Bernie:We all are, and somebody who only tells you success stories is probably not entirelycredible

Aled: Absolutely.Yeah.Well,Ireadsomethingaboutpeoplewhodescribethemselvesas"serialentrepreneurs"aremorelikeserialkillers.

Bernie: That'sprettydire.

Aled: Yeah.

Bernie: I definitely think that it's important to learn from your successes, but it's also reallyimportanttolearnfromwhereyouarenotsosuccessful.OneofthethingsI'velearnedovertimeisIcan'talwaysreallytellwhat'sbeensuccessfulandwhathasn'tbeen.

You think that thingshave comeout veryneatly,only to findoutawhile later itdidn'thold,andsomeoftheexperiencesI'vehadwhereIthoughtIwasarealfailure,Ifoundoutthatthatinterventionactuallymadealong-term,verypositiveimpact.Soit'snotalwaysobvious.

Aled: Yeah,Iknowitis.Iwasjustthinkingaboutthisinterview,aswell.NormallyIkindofhaveatleastasortoforganised,veryloosely,whenIsay"organised,"butItendtosortoflinearlygothroughthings. Ithoughtwewouldjustparachuteintoastorytokindofgetus intotheideaofthekindoftensionsbetweenthesedilemmasandtheseparadoxes.

Bernie: SortofliketheQueendidattheopeningceremoniesoftheOlympics?


Aled: Exactly like that. Just like that. The story Iwant you to tell and thedilemmas that thatpresentedyouisastoryaboutyour,Iwasgoingtosay"yourillegalpokerracket,"butitwasn't.Itwasapokergame. Itwasapokerevening thatyouandsomeofyourcolleagueshadwaybackwhen,andacharactercalledBobor...

Bernie: John.

Aled: . . . John. Tell us a little bit about that story and how it relates to the book and theparadoxesandwhyweneedtounderstandthisstuff.

Bernie:Well,becauseit'sastoryinwhichIcompletelywimpedout.JohnandIworkedtogetheratadrop-incentreforyouthinNewYorkCity.Ithinkweworkedtogetherfrom1969to1972,orsomethingonthatorder,onthewestsideofManhattan.

I was a social worker. I'd finishedmy graduate training at that point, andmost of theotherpeoplewhoworkedthereweretrainedsimilarly.Johnwaswhatwecalledinthosedays,Iguess people might still call it that way, but somewhat diminutively, a "paraprofessional." Hecamefromthecommunity.Hewasaveryniceguy,buthewasn'tprofessionallytrained,andhewaspaidless.Weallhadamale,Imightsay"only,"poker.Noitwasn't.Itakethatback.Itwasacoeducational poker game, and we played together, I don't know, maybe once a month orsomethinglikethat,mostlyinmyapartmentinNewYorkCity,andJohncame.

Aled: Highrollers?

Bernie: Yeah,reallyhighrollers.Iwasstuckatmaking$9,000ayearatthetime.AsIsay,wewerepaidmorethanothers.Hehadafamily.Therestofusweremostlysingle.Andhewasaterriblepokerplayer.Whatcan I say?Hewasoneof thesepeoplewhocouldnotdare to fold, thoughtthatbeingbluffedoutwasasignofweaknessandcouldn'treallyreadthemathonthetable.

Wewouldoftentrytopointoutandsay,"Youcan'tpossiblywin.Whyareyoubetting?Justlookatwhat'sonthetable."anditwouldn'twork.Thegamebecameamatteroftakingaway


money fromhimand feeling bad about it, and sometimes I think peoplewent down simply toavoidit,anditwasreallyruiningthegame.

Wedidn'tknowwhattodo,socoupleoftimeswejustdidn'tinvitehim.Iwasstillworkingwithhimatthistime.Andhesaid,"Whenarewegoingtohaveournextgame?"whichwasveryuncomfortable,andwefinallystoppedplaying.Weneversaid,"John,itdoesn'twork.Comeandwatch, but don't play. It's no fun. It's screwing it up."Wedidn't do it for a lot of reasons, butmostlywedidn'tdoitbecauseweweretryingtoavoidtheissue.

The thing thatwas interestingabout itwaswhy.Whatwouldhavebeen sohardaboutdoingthat?Inthat,also,itactuallyeven,byendingthegame,ourrelationshipwithhimwasneverquite thesame. It felt likewehaddonesomethingnotquite right,a littlebitmanipulative.Wecouldn'tquitebestraightwithhim.

Ontheotherhand,wefelthewasreallybeingobtusebynotreallyseeingwhatwasgoingon.Nevertalkedaboutthat.Youknowwhat?Sevenmonthsafterwards,hetookanotherjob,andhe left,and Imayhaveseenhimonceortwiceafterwards,but Idon'tknowwhathappenedtohim.

Itwasanexampletomeofwhatwas,onsomelevel,areallysillylittleissue,wasinfact,ithadaprofoundimpactonarelationshipthatwasnotmyclosestfriendintheworld,butitwasn'tunimportanttome.

Aled: Yeah, and of course, the unintended consequences of avoiding it, since we're talkingaboutavoidance,isthatyoualsostoppedafunactivitybetweenasetoffriends.

Bernie: Exactly.Exactly.

Aled: Sowhatwasthealternative?


Bernie:Whatyougoingtodo?Thealternativewastosay...Iplayedpokermanyothertimesinmylife.Iconsideredaformofcontinuingprofessionaleducationinnegotiation,andI'vehadtodothisatothertimes,notquiteasdramaticallyasthat,butwouldhavebeentosay,"John,forbetterorworse,youjustdon'tgetit,aboutpoker.Thisisn'tyourthing,andbecauseitisn'tyourthing,you're losinga lotofmoney,and I'mnot feelingokayabout it.We'renot feelingokayabout it.Comeandhangoutwithusandwatch,andmaybeyougetalittlebettersenseofit."

Hemight'vebeenupset,hemight'vebeenangry,hemight'vetoldustoscrewoff,butitwould've been honest, and it would've been treating him like an equal. It would have beenrespectfulofhiminsteadofbeingpatronising.Nowwefeltlikehecouldn'thandleit,ratherthangivinghimthechancetohandleit.

Aled: Doyouthinkitwasacaseofyouthoughthecouldn'thandleit,orwasitacaseofyoulotcouldn'thandlegivinghimthefeedback?

Bernie: Oh.Absolutelythelatterwaswhatitwas,andwhatwerewereallyafraidof?Ithinkwhenwe thinkof themanydifferent timeswedon'twant to say something to someone . . . I doanexerciseinclassesIteachbasedonareal-lifeincident,withacolleagueofmine,somecolleaguesofmine,whereabunchofpeoplehavetotellsomebodyelsetheydon'twanttodrivewiththem.They'renotasafedriver.

It'samazinghowpeoplewillavoidjustsayingit,oriftheysayit,howtheysayitbysaying,"Yourdriving sucks. I'mnever going todrivewith youagain." That's a formof avoidance too, Ithink,ratherthanjustbeingstraightaboutsayingthings.Again,that,similartothepokerincident,isnot thebiggestdeal in theworld.Youdon'twant tobedrivingwithsomebodyyou'reunsafewith,buttellingthemthatisnotliketellingthemthey'realiaroracheater,incompetent,sexist,racist,andthoseareimportantthingstobeabletosaytoo,findawaytosayittoo.

Sowhatareweafraidof?Theinterestingthingis,itisaformofavoidancethatpointsalsoout tohowwe'reengaging inotherways.Every timewedecide toavoidsomething, inasensewe'resettingupanotherconflict.

In order to successfully engage in a conflict,wehave to choosewhat elements of it toavoid.Thisisoneofthechaptersinthebook,the"AvoidanceandEngagement"chapter.Ioften


feellike,assomebodywho'seithercoachingsomebodyinconflictormediating,orassomebodyin conflictmyself, it's a continuous process of saying, "What do I engage in?What do I avoid?WhatdoItakeon?WhatelementdoInot?"

I think we're sometimes misled by some of our conflict styles tools where people areeitherengagersoravoiders,andIjustthinkthatisverysimplistic.Ithinkweallengageinconflict,andweallavoidconflict.Infact,wealldoit,allthetimeandatonce.

Aled: Iwant toput theparadox into context then.As a conflict specialistworkingwithotherpeople'sconflict,doIneedtohelppartiesdecidewhattoavoid,whattoengagein?DoIneedtothinkaboutmyownpreferences,whatI'mcomfortableabout?

Bernie: Yeah,andthewayIwouldsayit...Iagree.Yes.Theansweris"Yes."simply.However,Iwould say it as, we need to help them think it through, and we need to think it through forourselves.Butitishowdowewalkthepathofengagingwithavoidance?

Youcanthinkabouteveryturnasaturntowardsengagementinonewayandavoidanceinanother.Howdowewalkthatpath?Anybodywhocomestoushastosomeextentdecidedtoengage in something, but they've also come to us partly because they're avoiding someof theconsequencesofdoingitwithouthelp,whichisawisething.Sothoseareengagement-avoidancedecisions.

Aled: Sowhenwereachthosejunctionsonthatpath,howdowedecidetoturnrightorleftorgostraighton?Well,yeah.

Bernie: Right, left, straighton?Anybodywalksa lotofpaths in thewildernessknows that theytendnottobestraightonverymuch,unlessit'sacrossadesertorsomething.Well,Ithinkitgetsdowntowhatarewereally tryingtodo?What'sourpurposehere,andwhatareweafraidof?Sometimestherearethingsweshouldbeafraidof.


Everybodywho'sdealtwithsomebodythathastodealwithdomesticviolenceorsexualharassmentorpredationknowsthatyoucan'tengageeverything.Sometimesavoidance isyouronlywayofsurviving.

Butwhatareyoutryingtoaccomplish,whatareyouafraidof,andwhat'sattheheartofwhat'simportant?

SoifIamnegotiatingadivorce,andIamveryconcernedaboutmyex'suseofsubstancesandhowthatwillimpactourchildren.IfI'mgoingtoreallyfocusonthat,I'mgoingtohavetofindofbringingthatupinapowerfulwaybutonethatreallyfocusesontherealissue,whichmeansthere'sgoingtobealotofstuffIneedtoavoid.

What often happens for people is they avoid, they avoid, they avoid, and when theyfinally take on an issue like that, everything comes out, and you lose the essence of what'simportant.

So I think it's continually amatter ofwhat's important,what doweneed to dealwith,what's themessagewewant to get through,what are the consequences, onewayor another.Basedonthat,what'stherightwayofintegratingwhatweavoidandwhatweengage?

Aled: Yeah. I guess also, at some stage, there are some . . . Imean, you talk in that chapterabout,Ithinkit'sinthatchapter,aboutsomeethicalsortofboundariesormoral...

Bernie: Dilemma.

Aled: ...dilemmas.Yeah.

Bernie: [inaudible00:16:07]talkaboutchapters,butthatone,forexample,ifsomebodycomestous,anditdependswhatourroleis,butlet'ssayweare...Justsaywe're"anadvisor,"sayingthatthereisaprofessorwho'sseriouslysexuallyharassingthemandothers,butweabsolutelywanttokeepthatquiet.Now,thisisamoralquandaryhere.


Wehaveanobligationtothepersonwho'stalkedtous,butthere'sa largerdangeroutthere.We'vedealtwiththatasaprofessionwithchildabuse,withdomesticviolence,withthreatsto commit harm to others. What to avoid, what to engage and when it's all right to supportavoidance,whenwehavetohelppeoplereallygetovertheiravoidanttendencies.

Knowingthat if I,asan individual,doreportsomebodyforharassingmeinadangerousway, I could suffer seriousconsequences.The statisticsonwhathappens topeoplewho reportthatarenotgood.Sothatraisesalotofethicalchallenges.

Aled: Yeah.Okay.Tellusaboutsomeoftheotherparadoxesinthebook.

Bernie: Allright.Iwanttotalkaboutthis,thismonth'sissueofScientificAmerican,andtheleadstory is called "How We Conquered the Planet. Our species wielded the ultimate weapon,cooperation."

Oneofthechaptersisoncompetitionandcooperation,andweactuallyknow,asafield,more about this, andwe'remore conscious of this one, than a lot of the other paradoxes. It'samazingtomehowcentralthatistoallevolutionandtoallhumandevelopment,aswellastoourworkinconflict.

So if Imay read just a short quote from it, the author quotes a study by SamBowles,who'saneconomistattheSantaFeInstitutewhosaid...[inaudible00:18:34]quote,"Anoptimalcondition under which genetically-encoded, hyper-pro-sociality" in other words, extremecooperation, "can propagate is, paradoxically, when groups are in conflict. Groups that havehighernumbersofpro-socialpeoplewhoworktogethermoreeffectivelyandthusout-competeothersandpasstheirgenesthroughthisbehaviourtothenextgeneration."

SoifIcantranslatethat,Ihopeit'sclear,ifIcantranslatethat,he'ssaying,fundamentalreasonthatwehavecometodominatetheplanetiswe'rebetteratcooperatingwithpeoplewhoarenotrelatedtous.Andwhyisitimportant?Becauseithelpsustocompete.Andhowdidthisdevelop?


Whenresourcesbecamemore limitedduetoaclimateshiftmany,manyyearsago, likethousandsofyearsago,like14,000yearsagoorsomethinglikethat.Wehadtobeabletoprotectresourcestocompetewiththosewhowantedtogetit,andthosewhohaddevelopedthisgeneticcapacity to cooperate more effectively, were better at competing. That ultimately led us todominatetheplanet,towipeoutourcompetitivehumanoidspecies,etc.

Tome,thatlittlescientificsense,andthere'salotofotherstuffthat'sbeenwrittenaboutthistoo,thatscientificelementofitisattheheartofeverythingwedoinconflict.Ithinkweoftenthinkthatourjobistohelppeoplecooperatemoreeffectively,andit'snot.

Our job is to help people cooperate compete more effectively. It is to help peopleintegratethat.Ifweareoutthereasthepeoplewhoareadvocatesofcooperation,asopposedtotheadvocatesofhelpingpeoplebemoreeffective inconflict,we'regoingtobe isolatedandbeusedmuchlessthanthenwecouldbeused,andparadoxicallytherefore,wewon'tbeabletohelpconflictmoveforwardinamoreconstructiveway.

Aled: I'mtryingtogetmyheadaroundthat.Soifweseeourrolesashelpingpeoplecooperate,ratherthanhelpingpeoplecompete...Idon'tthinkthat'swhatyousaid,isit?

Bernie: No.That'swhatwethink,though.Wesooftenputoutthere,"Nonetheless,we'llhelpyoucooperate." but that's not the way the world works. In any serious negotiation, there is anelementtousenegotiation[inaudible00:21:16]that is integrated,that is lookingtoenlargethepie.But there isadistributedelement,aswell,which is todivide thatpieup,and theyarenotdisconnectedfromeachother.

Wecannicelytalkaboutthewayofworkingonmutualinterestsandjointgains,andweshould,butwehavetoalsobeawareofthepartofitthatisallright[soundslike00:21:43],butthere'salsowaysinwhichwewantsomethingforourselves.

Inordertogetsomethingforourselves,andforyoutogetsomethingforyourself,yes,weneedto,atsomepoint,enlargethepie.Butatsomepoint,andthere'satechnicalwordforthat,


wecall it"paretooptimality," that thatpie isn'tgoingtogetany larger. In fact, ifwecan'thelppeopledobothelementsofit,wewillbeusedmuchlessoften.

Sowhydosomanypeoplewant tovalue [sounds like00:22:15]ofmediators?Becausetheythinkallthefacilitative,transformative,cooperative-typemediatorsarenaïve,thatit'sreallyahard-nosedworldaboutcompetitiveness.Well,ofcourse,that'snaïvetoo.Itisaboutboth.

Thegeniusofwhatwehavetooffer,whateverourroleis,isthatwecanhelppeopledoboth,andintheprocess,wecanbemoreconstructiveinhowweengageinthatprocess.

Aled: Igetit.Iguessthatlinks,seguesnicely,intotheneutralityadvocacyparadox.Tellusaboutthatone.

Bernie: Thisisonethat'sparticularlyaboutconflictintervention.Itcanapplytoallofusinconflictwhether were intervenors or not, but that's particularly an important one for intervenors.Whereasmostoftheotherparadoxesapplytoallofusinconflict,aswellasintervenors.

Thatgetsbacktoourlastinterviewalittlebit,aboutneutralitytoo.Ithinkthatwethinkthatacriticaldefining factorofwhoweare,as thirdparties, isourneutrality.Yet, innosense,exceptaspirational,arewereallyneutral,andthattermitselfisveryconfusingtopeople.

Whatpeoplewantfromuswhenweinterveneinconflictistheywanttobehelped.Andtheywant toknowthatwecareabout them,and theywant toknowthatwecareabout themachieving their goals, their legitimate goals, you could say, I suppose, but their goals.And theywantustohavesomeobjectivity,someperspective,somedispassion.That'struewhetherweareadvocatesormediators,whetherweareinathird-partyroleorinaallyrole.

In fact, unless we are able to convey both elements, that we are able to take adispassionateview,tonotgetcompletelyboughtintotheconflict,tolookatthebroaderpicture,tounderstandandhelppeopleunderstandnotonlywhere they're coming frombutenoughofwhere,what they see as adversaries, are coming from, so that they can craft amore effectiveapproach.


At the same time, that we genuinely care about their circumstance, not just in someabstract,objectiveway,butonanemotionallevelaswell.Thenwe'renotgoingtobecompletelyacceptedintotheirlivesifwecan'tdothat,andwewon'tbeveryeffective.

Thereareparticularaspectstothisastowhatourparticularroleis,whetherwe'rethirdpartiesoradvocates,forexample,butit'strueforallconflictnegotiators[soundslike00:25:21].

Aled: I'mbeginningtothinkthat theseparadoxes, it'sas if they're things thatwemustvalue,componentsof...Thesearenotoptionsforus.Thesearecomponentsofasystemthatweneedtoreallyunderstandhowtheyintegratewitheachotherandhowtobringthemtogetherintheworkthatwedo.

Bernie: Yeah. I think that's right. Our values and beliefs and purpose is extremely important. Ithink we sometimes mistake commitment to our fundamental values and beliefs with acommitmenttospecificapproaches.

Sowhy is it that I valuebeing impartial orneutral?Well, that isn't reallymyvalue.Myvalueistobehonest,tobeauthentic,tobetransparentaspossible.AsI'veoftensaid,allofourethicalguidelines,asprofessionals,comedowntosaying,"Wearewhowesayweare.Wewilldowhatwesaywewilldo."It'stobestraightwithpeople.

But it's not likewhat's particularly important tome is that I'mneutral, because I don'tevenknowwhatthatmeans[inaudible00:27:01].DoesthatmeanIhavenobeliefs?DoesitmeanI don't like one side more than the other? Does it mean I don't do something that mightadvantage one sidemore than the other? Does itmean that I have no structural relationship,meansIwouldbenefitwithonesidemorethantheother?Ithinkifthat'sthecase,wefail.

As I say, the only meaning that really makes sense to me is what I would call"aspirational."IfitmeansthatIdon'tintendtoadvantageonesideattheexpenseoftheother,ifI'minaneutralrole,whateverthatmeans,again,thenthatmakessense.Butotherwise...youknow,Isometimesdothingsthathelponeparty.Isometimesdothingsthathelpanother.IfItry


so hard to be neutral, that I'm not going to help one side or another, that too helps one sideversusanother.Usually,ithelpsthemostpowerfulside.

Aled: Sohowdoweintegratethesetwo. . . Iwasjustthinkingaboutneutralityandadvocacywithin the role of a conflict specialist. How dowe integrate those two sides? Dowe integratethem?

Bernie:Well,letmespeakfromthepointofviewofamediator.SoifI'mamediatorandyouandsomebodyelseareclients,andIsaytoyou,"Okay.I'mheretohelpyouhavetheconversationyouneedtohave,foreachofyoutosaywhatyouneedtosay,togetintothediscussionyouneedtogetinto,toseewhatissuesyouwanttotackle,andtoapproachwhatagreementsmakesensetoyou,ifpossible.

"Iwilllistentobothofyou.Iwilldomyverybesttomakesureyoueachhaveachancetobeheardandtoheareachother.I'lldomyverybesttodothat,andwe'llgoforward."Now,thatsounds likea completelyneutral statement,but there'snothing in thereaboutneutralityotherthanthatIsay,"Itappliestobothofyou."

It says that I'mgoing tohelpyoubeanadvocate,and ifyouareshuttingupsomebodyelsebyinterruptingthemallthetime,I'mgoingtobetheiradvocate.I'mgoingtosay,"HangonAled.Youneedtoletthemspeak."

"Butwhatthey'resayingisalie."

"Well,maybeso,andyoustillneedtoletthemspeak."Youknow,I'mbeinganadvocateinasense.

Ihaven'tsaid,"I'mgoingtobeaneutral.I'mgoingtobeanadvocate."Ihaven'tsaid,"I'mgoingtobemulti-partial."Ihaven'tsaid,"I'mgoingtobeallofyouradvocates."I'vetriedtotakeanintegrativeapproach.


Whenanyparticularinterventionhappens,Itriedtotakeanintegrativeapproachtothattoo,becauseIdon'tsay,"Aledwouldyoushutupandquitbeingsuchanasshole"?Although,I'vebeentemptedtosaythattopeopleattimes.Isayinstead,"Youmaynotlikeit,butyouneedtohearwhattheyhavetosay,andthentheyneedtohearwhatyouhavetosaytoo."

Aled: Itsoundslike,then,somebodyneedstoredraftthemediatorcodeofethics.

Bernie: That'sright.Ithinkitneedstosaythatwearetheretohelp.Letmeaskyou.What'syourfundamentalpurposewhenyouwalkintheroomasamediator?

Aled: Myfundamentalpurposeistohelpthepartieshaveproductiveconversation.

Bernie: Bingo. It's mine too. That's almost exactly what I would say. So in order to have aproductiveconversation,youhavetodomorethanjustbeneutral.Youhavetobeengaged.Youhavetobeanactiveparticipant.That's[inaudible00:30:48]ofhavingproductiveconversations.

Aled: It's interesting, so I'm integrating now, I'm thinking about the avoidance and theengagement,butalsoneutralityandadvocacy.Soyoucouldsaythatbeingneutral,inonesense,isactuallyavoidingtakingupyourroletofacilitateaproductiveconversation.

Bernie: Ithinkthat'sthewayitappearstoalotofpeople,andinalotoflinguistictraditions,theconcept of neutrality sort of translates to "do nothing". Like being in neutral in a car. It isabsolutely,foralotofpeople,itfeelslikeavoidance,andforalotofus,itis.

IfIdon'twanttogetinvolvedinapoliticaldebate,forexample,whoshouldbetheleaderoftheLabourPartyrightnow,whichIknowisgoingonthere,Icansay,"Well,I'mneutral."Whatdoesitmean?Thattranslatestoalotofpeople,"Idon'tcare",andit'swhypeoplearesometimessuspiciousofus.

Aled: Yeah.


Bernie: Andshouldbe,bytheway,sometimes.

Aled: Yeah.Yeah.Absolutely.Absolutely.Yeah.

Emotionsandlogic,I'mtryingtounderstand...

Bernie: I'mtrying...

Aled: Goon.

Bernie: I'm trying togo through someof these . . . Sure. Youknow, that'sbeenanareawherethere'sbeenanawfullotofinterestingneurologicalresearch,oneofwhichsays...youknow,weoftenthinktheyaretwodifferentprocesses, thattheyevenreside intwodifferentpartsof thebrain,butinfact,emotionsaren'tlocatedinonepartofthebrain.Theykindofworkthroughoutthebrain.

Logic doesn't work without emotions. The work of Antonio Damasio, who's aneuroscientist,he'swrittenalotofbooks,butoneofwhichiscalled"Descartes'Error",hasdonethesestudieswithpeoplewherethepartof theirbrainthatprocessedemotionswasdamaged,and found thatpeoplecouldstillbe totally rational . . . Forexample, I [inaudible00:33:09] say,"DoyouwanttogoouttoanItalianrestaurantoranIndianrestauranttonight?"

You could do the pros and cons of each, but you couldn't make a decision. You needaccesstoyouremotionstoapplyyourlogictotherealworld,andemotionsneedaccesstologicinorder to alsobeable tohelp guideus through theworld.Andemotions are a guide. Logic is aguide.They'reanintegratedguide.

Sowhensomebodysaystoyou,"Allright.Let'skeeptheemotionsdownhere."or"Let'sjustberational,"they'rebasicallysaying,"IwanttherationalitythatIattachmyemotionsto,to


prevail."Infact,whatwe'retryingtodoisbringemotionsandrationalitytogetheronthetableinaproductiveway.

Sowhatistherealproblemwithsomebodybeingemotional?Isitthattheyuseitasa...No.Letmetakethatback.

Isifitisusedinawaythatshutsdownconversation.Itshutsdowninteraction.Youwantemotionstocomeontothetable,tobeusedeffectively.Sometimesitmighthaveanimmediateconversation-stoppingeffect.Butforthelong-termeffectofittobetohelppeopleengagewithwhat'sreallygoingon,bothforthemselvesandforothers.

Alotoftimes,Ithink,whatmediatorsthinkisthatfirstyoudealwiththeemotions,andthenyoucanberational.SometimesIthinkyoufirstdealwiththehigh-levelofemotionalenergy,sothenyoucanintegrateitmore.Butyou'realwaystryingtohelppeopledoboth.

Sowatchsomebodytryingtomakeadecisionastowhethertoacceptanoffer,whetheryou'reanegotiatororamediatororwhatever. It isnota simple, rationalprocess, even if theythinkitis.Theiremotionsareverymuchatwork.

Aled: Sojustthinkingabout,inthatscenario,someonestrugglingtomakeadecision,yousay,"Holdonasecond.Letmejustgetabitofflip-chartpaperoutandwhiptogetheradecisiontreeforyou.Thatshouldhelp."

Bernie:Well,anditmight.Butitmightalsobeimportanttosay,"Well,letmedothis,"layitout,and then say, "So how do you feel when you're looking at that?" which is a very differentquestion,ofcourse,than,"Whatdoyouthink?"

Ithinkoneofthebesttoolswecanuseistousefeelingwordsaboutwhatwethinkourrationalprocessesandrationalwordsaroundwhatwethinkarefeelingprocesses.


Soforexample,whenyougetreallyupsetaboutsomething,andIsaytoyou,"Okay.Whydon't you explain to me what's going on that's upset you so much." That is a very rationalquestionaboutaveryemotionalprocess.Whensomeonemakesanoffer, I think it'softenveryhelpfultosay,"Iwantyoutothinkaboutthat,andafteryou'vethoughtaboutitforawhile,tellmewhatyoufeelaboutit[inaudible00:36:17]."

What havewe done?We've asked people to integrate [inaudible 00:36:21], and that'svery valuable. There's lots of evidence, neurologically, that it is. But we have to overcomepeople'sthinkingthatone'semotionalandtheother'srational.

Aled: Yeah.Bernie,whywritethisbook?

Bernie: Oh. Iwant togiveyouanemotionalanswer to that.Because I felt Ihad to. I'vehadanexperienceafteralmosteverybookI'vewritten,saying,"Allright.NowI'vesaidwhatIhadtosay.I'mdone."andsomethingstartshappening,andIstartthinkingaboutsomething.Istartthinkingaboutitforawhile,andthenIfeellikeit'simportanttosay.

So anybodywho, and it comes out of research and reading,my experiences and sometestsI'vedoneintegratingmypracticewithteachingmypractice,andallsortsofotherthings.

But in a way, anytime you write something like this, it's a supreme act of arrogance,because you think youhave something to say that that other people shouldwant to hear, butthat'swhatIthought.

Whatreallycametome,whichIreallystruggledwith,whichwasunderneaththisbook,andIstruggledwithitindifferentwaysovertheyearsandI'vetriedtoaddressindifferentways,iswhatdowedothatmakesadifference?Whatreallymakesadifferenceforpeople?Whatdoconflictintervenorsdothatmakesadifference?

Clearly there's a lot of thingswe can saywe do tactically.We separate positions frominterests.Weexplore themotivational basis ofwhat people are doing.Wehear people.We'reempathic.Wedoallsortsofstuff.Butintheend,Ithinkwhatmakesadifferenceisthatpeople


understand themselves in conflict differently, and as a result, they can understand othersdifferently.It'sliketheoldsaw,"Takealookatyourselfsoyoucanlookatothersdifferently."

So themore I thoughtabout that, themore I realised, all right, I thinkwhen I've reallymade a difference, even a little difference, people started thinking about things just a littledifferently.

Sowhat is it?Themore I thought,andthemore I readabout it, themore lookedmorebasically intohumandevelopment, intoevolutionandsomeof thebrain-sidestuffwe'vetalkedabout.Whatweknowabouteconomics,themoreIrealisedthattheunifyingthemesseemtobethatwecreatethesebifurcationsthatarereallynotbifurcations,butareparadoxes.InthesensethatAistrueandnotAistrue,andthatboththosethingsaretrue.

Andthatwhenpeoplecanbegintounderstand,eveniftheydon'tusethatterminology,andtheyseldomdo,theybegintothinkofthingsdifferently.Forexample,whenpeoplebegintohave the capacity to use their emotions in amore productiveway, all sorts of things begin tochange.Andtoacceptotherpeople'semotionsinamoreproductiveway,allsortsofthingsbegintochange.

Aled: Yeah.Where do you think were going to be challengedmore? Aroundwhich of theseparadoxesarewegoingtobechallengedmost?

Bernie: Ironically, we haven't talked about that. I mean, all of them are challenging, andwe'llalwaysdealwiththiscompetitionandcooperation,forexample,butIthinkit'saboutcommunityand autonomy.We are, perhaps, hardwired, although that's a funny concept. Itmay be a badconcept.

We'recertainlyprogrammed,inmanyways,tothinkofcommunityintermsofthesizeofclans,oftribes,ofsmallercommunities.Asaresult,we'renotabletomakedecisionsthatneedtobemadeifwe'regoingtosurviveasaspecies,ifyou'regoingtoavoidcalamityinthefuture.


Wehave tobeable to thinkofour community in a lotbroaderways thanwenowdo,because the decisions we have to make, about climate, for example, about how do we worktogetherwithpeoplewhoare fromwhatweexperiencedtobeprofoundlydifferent tribes,willhaveanawfullottodowithhowweprosperonthisplanet,orwhetherweevendo.

AndIdon'tknowwhattheendresultofitis,butthatisaboutthesenseofbeingabletosee our autonomy, within the ever increasingly powerful communities. And our autonomy asindividuals, our autonomy as families, our autonomy as clans, we have to be able to see it interms of how we prosper as a species, how we prosper as a world, how we prosper acrossmultiplegenerations.

We seem tobe able tomakedecisionsbasedon thenext generation, perhaps, butwedon'tdoverywellbeyondthat,andwhetherwecanexpandthatcapacityisextremelyimportant.

Aled: Yeah.Thisisn'tabookjustforconflictspecialists.Thisisabookforanyoneontheplanetinterestedindevelopingtheirthinkinginthisspace.

Bernie: I thinkso. I thinkthatwastrueof"StayingwithConflict" too,whichwasabouthowwedeal with long-term conflict. So yes. I use the tools and sometimes align with the conflictspecialist,butIthinkit'stotallyaccessible.

Aled: Yeah.Sowhat'syourhope?Someoneputtingthebookdown,whatwouldyourhopebethattheywouldbethinking,doing?

Bernie: Besidestellingalltheirfriendstobuythebook?

Aled: Yeah.

Bernie: Iwouldhopethattheyaremadetothinkalittleharderaboutsomeofthesethings,that'sall. Their thinkingwill take themwherever itwill take them. Ihope itwill take themtoamore


complex way of thinking, because I think the more complex our thinking becomes, the morepoignant[soundslike00:43:10]ourinteractionsinconflictbecome.

Aled: It'sinteresting,Bernie,themoreinterviewsthatIdo,themoreIrealisehowlittleIknow,butalso,themoreIrealisehowbroadthefieldis.IthinkwhenIgotintomediation,it'sabitlikeinvestinginatoolkit.There'saboxwith...youopenitup,andthere'ssometoolsinit.

I'mseeingmediationmorethroughthatsortof lensnowandrecognisingthatthereisamuchbroader,notjusttoolsbutmanuals,howtousethetoolsintherightway.

Bernie: So, Aled, let me ask you something. When you did your introduction, you describedyourself,thisplace,andIlovedit,as"thehomeofthepassionatemediator."

Aled: Yeah.

Bernie: Tellmeaboutthat,becausetome,thepassionisthekeytoit.

Aled: Thepassionatemediator.Ithinktablesareturning,right?

Bernie: Turnitbackwheneveryouwant.

Aled: You're good, you are. You're good. I'm going to flip it around, because in one of yourchapters,youtalkaboutbeingaconflictavoider,being,ontheonehand,aconflictavoiderandontheotherhandanactivist,orsomethinglikethat.

I can relate tohaving similar sortof a senseofpartofmebeinga conflict avoider,notenjoyingconflict,particularlytherealsortofviolentmanifestationsofit,notjustphysically.Justaggressionandpeopleusingpowertogetwhattheywantandjustfeelinguncomfortableaboutthat.Also,anotherpartofmehavingthecouragetokindofspeakupwhenIthinkit'simportant.


I do remember, when I did this mediation training in South Africa, and I don't knowwhetheritwasthetraining,itwasthecontext,SouthAfrica,thewholeTruthandReconciliationCommissionwas going on at the time,wheremy brainwas in its development. The stars thatwereintheskythatnight, Idon'tknowwhatitwas,butsomethinginmethought,"Oh.Really?Youcanhaveaproductiveconversationwithoutitendinginfisticuffs?"Imean,whereIgrewup,if youhada conflictwith someone, therewerea coupleofwaysof sorting itout, and itdidn'tinvolvetalking.

Sotheideathatyoucouldhaveaproductiveconversation,evenwhenyoufeltsostronglythatyouwererightortheotherpersonwaswrong,itwasjustarev-,...Thatexperiencehaskindofjourneyforwardoverthelast10,15years,pursuingwhatI'mpursuing,andIdo,Ihaveabelief...Igenuinelythinksittingpeopledown,well,notnecessarilysittingthemdown,butjustbeingabletotalkthingsthrough.Ithinkwehavethecapacityasanadvancedgroupofbeingstobeabletotalkaboutthings...

I'mthinkingaboutyourparadoxbetweencommunityandautonomy. Iagree. I think it'sgoing tobe fundamental. Sometimes I think,well,what legacyam I leaving?Every time Idon'trecycle an item that is potentially recyclable, I have a whole guilt com-, you know, internalconversationgoingon, "Ohmygoodness.Mygrandchildrenaregoing togo, 'SoGranddad,youthrewthisinthebinknowingthatin100yearstimethereweregoingtobeoceansofplastic."...Ihavethosethoughtseverytime,whichiswhyI'ma...Youknow.

Idon'tknowI'mheadingnowatthemoment.Butintermsofbeingthepassionatesortofmediator,Ithinkgalvanisingpeople,tohelppeopletotalkaboutthingsinaproductivewayandtheusefulwaywherepeoplecanunderstandwhereothersarecomingfrom. I thinkpartof thedriveofMediatorAcademyistokindofbringtheseresourcestoaplacewherepeoplecanhaveamenuofresources.It'sabuffet.It'sasmallgasp[soundslike00:48:18],orwhatever,andtheycanlearn,developtheirthinking,becauseall themediators Imeet,people interested inthiskindoffield,areinterestedinlearning.

Bernie: SoIjustinviteyoutolistentowhatyoujustsaid,becauseitwasabrilliantintegrationoflogicandemotion.Itwasgreat.You'resayingthepassioniscritical.It'spassionatebecauseofourvalues.Youcaresomuchaboutit,andtherefore,youhavetohelppeoplewhocometogethertobeabletothinkaboutthisstuffinadifferentway.


Imean,it'snatural.Ifyoureallylistentouswhenweareatourmostpassionate,butalsowhenwe'reourmost,insomeways,logical,andwhenwebringtotheforewhatismostessentialtous.Thatwasgreat.

For me, I'm passionate about helping people in conflict. Why? Because I think that'swheretheworldneedsmetohelppeople.Allofusdo.Ireallylovemediating,andIbelieveitisanincrediblyimportanttool,butitisatoolforhelpingpeopledealwithconflictbetter.

ThemoreI'vekindofsaidformanyyearsnowthatIviewmyselfasaconflictspecialist,andIapproachitanumberofways.ThemoreIkindoflookedatthatandwhatthatreallymeansandwhatthatimplies.Irealisedittakesusintothefundamentalquestionsandchallengesofthehuman experience, and not just the human experience, but certainly the human experience.That'sexcitingtome.

Themorewe can connect what we do on an everyday level to its roots, evolution, indevelopmentalpsychology,inbrainscience,inhumaninteractionalprocesses,thebetterweareabletodowhatwedoineverydaylife.

Somuchofwhatwedoisabouttools,andthat'sfine,butifthosetoolsaredisconnectedfromwhat the root of the passion is andwhat the root of the experience is, then those toolswon'tbeaseffective.

So I cannot use a screwdriver orwrench aswell asmy next-door neighbourwho lovesdoing that sort of stuff, because it's bred intowhohe is.Maybe that's a silly analogy, but youunderstandwhatImean.

Aled: Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.Absolutely.Ithinkwhenyoulistentosomeofthegreatorators,someofthegreatspeeches,theyseemtofusetogethertheseconcepts,theseideas.Imust'velistenedtoMartinLutherKing's talk Idon'tknowhowmanytimes,buthisuseofmetaphor,hehadtheability to integrate some of these concepts into the jangling discords of . . . I can't rememberwhat,butjustinthat...


Bernie:Well,dissonanceispartoftheplanet.

Aled: Yeah.Yeah.

Bernie: Yes.Sogreatspeakersdopulltogetherthesethings.Twoofthemwehaven'tmentionedyetouroptimismandrealism,thattheypullthattogether.Justlistentoatalkby,I'mnotgoingtoget thequoteexactly right,butWinstonChurchill ata criticalpoint inWorldWar II, I think thebattleofElAlamein,saidsomethinglike,"Now,thisisnottheend.Itisnoteventhebeginningoftheend,but it is,perhaps, theendofthebeginning."Whatabeautifulwayofputtingtogetheroptimismandrealism.

Ifyou're justoptimistic in the faceofstuff,you'renotbelieved,you'renotcredible, theoptimismdoesn'twork.Realismwithoutoptimismiskindofempty,andsomebodywhosays,"I'mbeingthehard-nosedrealisthere."means,"I'moptimisticaboutgettingwhatIwant."

So great speakers combine those things. They combine principle and compromise too,MartinLutherKing,AbrahamLincoln. Ifyou just listento therhetoricofObamanowabout theIrandealandothers,attheirbest,they'reintegratingthisstuff.Whenhetalksaboutrace,athisbest,he'sbeingharshlyrealisticabouttheproblemandofferingasenseofoptimismthatwecanmakethingsbetter,andthosearecriticaltoleadership.

They're critical to fiction, topoetry.They're critical togreat speaking.They're critical togooddrama.

Aled: Yeah.Absolutely.Bernie,thishasbeeninspiring,asalways.

Bernie: It'sbeen,asalways,reallyfunformetotalk.


Aled: I know people watching this will be digesting every word and reflecting on their ownpracticeand theirowngoalsanddreamsandaspirationsand their current realitiesandhowtonavigatethatpathbetweenwheretheyarenowandwheretheywanttobe,anddotheyavoid,dotheyengage,dotheygostraightonthroughthedesert?Whoknows?

Bernie: Actually,probablymostpathsindesertsaretwistedtoo.[inaudible00:54:07]true.

Aled: Bernie,thankyousomuchforagreeingtodothisagain.

If you haven't watched Bernie's first interview, highly recommend it. There'll be a linkunderneaththisinterviewdirectlytoit.AndBernie,justforthosethathaven'tseenthatyet,thatwant to get in touch with you and reach out, I know quite a few people did after the lastinterview,what'sthebestwayofharanguing,harassingyou?

Bernie:Well,BernieMayer,[email protected] isspelledC-R-E-I-G-H-T-O-N.edu.

Aled: Okay.

Bernie: OryoucanGoogleme,andsomethingwillcomeup.

Aled: Please, justdropBerniea line.Say"Thankyou."Orderasignedcopyofhisbook.That'llincreasethevaluebyatleastafewbucks.

Bernie: Honestly,whenpeopleaskmetosignacopy,I'llchargelessforthebook.

Aled: Bernie,I'mgoingtobethefirstoneagaintosay"Thankyou."Thankyousomuchforyourtime,yourinsight,yourwisdom,andIreallylookforwardtothenextbook.


Bernie: Thankyou.

Aled: Thankyou,Bernie.

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© MediatorAcademy.com 2016 All Rights Reserved · Bernie Mayer Aled Davies: Hi, everyone. My name is Aled Davies ... , but would have been to say, "John, for better or worse, you