't.

lfatloff. !hi. t ••• 01'.1 btatoQ latent .. vida Ge_~.l L,... L. t.-ttM~,

bald 111 tile hataloa ill. Gea. La_1tMr'. office 011 Ja_.., 24, lta4. !ldl 1 •

• coatS .... ClOD of all. illle"i .. Maull et our prm .... U .. oa J • .., 19.

Cuenl, at tid •• etiea .'11 COIICelltrate, if • M" o. JOUI' perlod ..

1AC'Ua, 1. lIA'IO. fftli 1963 to 1969. lefon. "Iill oa tU., I .1 "ed ...

• td JOG ha ... cbaDce to bri.f ,our ~c •• aor aa Cbalr.all of the Jotllt Cbiefl,

Ga.. 'I'a,lor, befor. ,au took "ar ella SACIIm po.t tiaat Va. .1'. • tl'a.l tiOil

of ... 1t1M. 0.1' .1. ,011 10 dtractl, fl'. OM po.t to the othH vtdlout a

c1aaace to talk to ,our auca.aor'

le!e1yerl 10, 1 •• Ucl, ..... 1t wa •• 1' •••• &bat I ~l. 111 wa.", .. toa for

.ppI'DxUatal, a .ada. It •• eluriaa tbat .oatb tbat a Ina' -07 tbl ...

bep,..... the CalMII .a.11e crbi. el • .,aloped. 1 •• -iDa .., offic •••

Chatl'Mll to c.,le,. quit. a few paper. that weI' ...... 1' ., aDel that 1 ..

tnol ... til, INt abortl, after tbe 1., of Octobel', 1961, the c.baa 1Il •• U.

cd.". c_ up. ... 01 our people til. CIA 1a ra..u. the :lDtalltaeac:e louad

that lllrulbc:hn va. taatalUIll ... DUCl .. r " •• Ue. ill Caha. 1 eta,.el la tbe

offi~e of the CbatZUD aad kept ill clos. CODta~t v.l.th CeIlar.l ora,lor. I eat iD

aD • 100cl Ma, of the •• U .... taclucltlll tho .. with tbe Pr •• ident, to daYelop

a procedure to tackle this Cubaa ai •• lle prohl ...

lfatloff: You ... n part of the UCOHK at the tl_, .• UNr. 10, I va. aot a _bel' of all,tbi1ll. uc:ept •• a foner autizaa of

the J0111t Chiara of Btaff I be. at ., ft •• rtip. all of the vharev1thal fra

which the illtelUq8ace va. pined that tbea~ 111 •• 11 •• _re hlna i •• talled.

1 attended .ett •• at the Wbtte Bou.e with Gen. "a,lor, til which the, wre

DECLASSIFIED IN FULL Authority: EO 13526 Chief. Records & OecIass Dlv. WHS Date:

JUll 1 2013

/3-ff}-I091

• '0 .. ....... P: _ •.• __

• 10 .

Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief, ROO. WHS lAW eo 13526, Section 3.5

[Jete: JUl 1 1 20ll

... ~ .1- -_____ .. _ .. ____ .. _. ___ ._

dt.c ... lDa •• ,. aad .... to .al witb till_ particular probl... Durl. tut

.. tb it •• d,ctd,. h, the Atlaatte CoUftCll tbat tb, cha .... ",r of IACIUR

... 14 .. de 18,.. • Iove"r. 1 poiate. out that • load .olutton to the ",_1 ..

of traa.ltloa would .. for ., to beca.a CIHCBUR about the flr.t of 1ove.1ter a" DOt SACBUR. peulna tbe work11l1 out of the arNqe_ta Oft duI Cubaa at.ule

crt .• la. '!'bat' ..... t bappne4. I recall tbat 1 l.ft " •• hll11tOft about tbaa or

four .,. hafore the ad of October. I va. iD.ta1lec1 .. ClIClua In Europe.

which 1 ba. rac __ Ddad. 1 'iel it for thi. rea801U 1 felt that if I coul4 tet

a .-dod of COIlUIltratioa OIl ClIlCEU1'. prohl.... tlleu whene'Mr the Coacu

dectded ·it would .. appropriate for •• to be4:0IIe SACEUa thea I 1IOu.U haY.

IOttaD &:be orleaution GIl CIRCEUI. beUnci _.

Katloffl Iu other won., ,0\1 vere puttlll1 Oft ,our Aaedeau bat U.r.t.

lAlmitz.rl 'lUtt • cornct. !Mr. v .. eDother "'1'1 iaporuat n.801l for t1118.

There ...... d1ecua.101l 8. to vbether I, .. a SACIUI., .bould -.lalt ler11.1a. 1'h1.

que.tlOD ca_ up d\ll'l ... the period of uauitioll. 1 ta.leted chat It vee a leu­

,ral prlDelpl' of aiae tbat la takilll ov.r a nev ... ' .... Dt. y01l -.181t the .oat

re.ate area. of JOUr n'poDs,btlitl •• flr.t. 1 coa.ldered "rllu~ .o.t ~r­

tallt, aDd .0 I laatated that 1 .. pemitt •• to 10 to Ber11D. Th.I'. v ..... oppa-

81tlon to it. becau •• 1 bed be_ SACIUI ctea1pate. Tho •• in appoaltion f.lt that

thl. would cr.ate a probl •• wltb the Soviet UD10n OD lerlla aDd ther ... re lot.

of people ""0 felt that thta va. a provocaU ... idea. • .... rthel •••• va veat

throuah vtth It aad it VOI'ked out extra.ely vell.

KaUoff: Do ,ou. ncall. froa whoa did th18 oppo.1UOD arl •• -Aaerlcaa or

fore laD circle.,

2

~ . , .. " I, ,f. ':0- '~J. .' ,: '. ,,' •.. ." 'JI," .• ~ ......

'. ~ ,. .~,...... ." ..... 1'.

DECLASSIFIED IN PART Authority: EO 13526 Chief, Records & Declass Div, WHS Dati: JUL 1 7 201 J

lou of our al11 •• apr •••• _, ar •• t COllUra

.1MMat ie. But we. be. throua"dlt. before. wit" "'''1'' to the IAClUl/ClICIUI

bab, ... tbe r.l.U •• M, vit" "rUIl.

MaSloff. You MDti", the Cu ••• 18811. criale. I chi_ that .... abc CD wW

tlult ODe \aP. "par.lltI, thet crub va. MIlCIW Mtt.r thaD tbe la, of '11'.

A& lea.t •• t of til. wdtilll .. th ... two erl8 ..... , to COIle do ... the 81 ••

of the ..... 11q of the •• co ... cr1.l1 _n dUd_d,. w •• that JOU mpr.l1oll'

!.!etca.fa It.. DO 10..,r • COWl't op.r.tlOll. Tb!t...- .. of the 111' .. 1.. ill

... 11. wlth tM .. , of '1&'. ltv... co •• rt optr.t1_ ria"t v.p _Ul the tUt

It .. pt ...... ...,. I _a, tbt -tuN. 1&"'taa lO,t ..... rva,. hi da~ .... .

_jol' uclcnaal 18 •• vlcll tbe 'r •• l'.Dt. the ec.uDdtI' ia CId.f. ill .. ol ..... 1

... c:all au _.tiDa at die VhS.te Bou ••• OIl • SatunaJ .... at8l. after .tta_i. _

Ar.,/C.I'I' VUh1D&toa football .. _ her. 1D """il1ll:08. C'eD. 'l'aJlor· .. tlltr ••

a.1M ",r ... tlfled chac. "'tbouc .ttapti .. to rulh out, bat ..... tll! __ .1

..... 1'. _ II1uMald .top 11, the WId" aou ... WI di. lt _parat.l,. Vllea .. lOt CD

the Whit. Bou ..... fnad • c~lcatloD he. Ehl'Ubcu.. vtaich. ill UHIU:e.

Ni •• -All dabt, 111'. , .... ld'llt, ,ou taka JOUI' aladl.1 out of

I'll taU a, lI1aeU •• out of CU .... • 1'Iaat lOt

........ t at Ch.t •• tina. Shortl, aftar the

....... fr .. Dna.hcha. ba4 be.. read. 0111 of the alda. caM lD ad told the

Pnlid.Dt daat th.r. v.. all 1apo7taDt call fr_ .... Sreftllaoll ill I. York

Clt1. alUl he 1.ft. Aftal' he left, 'lie. 'rad_at Jowoa loobd aroad the

taltla IIld .. id. -I thlD1t. that &1aru!1acha .. baa .... • "1:7 ... Ud ad !aport.Dt

pObt, ... I chillk th.t we .bou1. aceapt h.- 'l'bat Uael of .hocked _, for the

050 Section 6.2 (a)

! .................... " '. : .;. ... :.,. .. -1." .;,::I~-: ' _ ~... ..~; •• ~ ... l_·:!._·~ ~ 1. 1.

the

OSD Section 6.2 (a)

DECLASSIFIED IN PART Authority: EO 13526 Chief, Records & Declass Div, WHS Oat.: JUl 1 7 l013

80 1 polat.. out

that dal ••• DOt • U.I. probl_. that thi. _. a MTO probl .. , but lie woulda't

.,ree with that. W. had • ~.ther furlou. arau-e-t. I trl •• to relate all the

t.port •• t .eel.loa. tba ... had to uke to put th .... l".. aD

• t.r,et for SoYlet .:la.U .. , aad tbat .ltlaDua" tbey van U.S.-produc.d ala.lle ••

tbe, ...re not thare 1Ia • U.S. 1'01.. 'I'M, vere _.d bJ U.S. forcaa, 1 ......

but thl •••• a -Jor .. ttar d .. lla. wiCh ebe •• Ura A111aoca. Vbe. the 'ra.U .. t

ca_ back ... dt.cua .. ' thla ....... t. we the •• tlDa _dad up 1D sort of a

hiatus. aa.t GO _jor claclalO'U .. ra takaa .. • n8U1t of it.

Mat1o!f. Did ,OU "ft -the feali1l' that tba Joioe Chiefa of Saff ... _n illput

to the haacllt... of dab crl.i. th.a 1. the .. , of 'ia.' t.e.llturl Vary auch _. beca .. a ""e. va ba ... lookt. for what ¥aUld happeD U

Xbru.hcbn dlu't taka lib .la.il •• oati 1 thlu that it v ...... rall' and.racoocl

b, a ... r, .. that participated. at leut bJ thOH 1 coatact ••• tbat 11 ba dicla't

t.ka t .... out ... ·d ""e to ,0 la tb.ra .d tab e .... out our •• ly •••

MaUofft If I UDd.retaacl corbetl,. ,. at.,_ fA W •• hiuatoa _i81 the vho1e

p.riod of that crial. la October!

LaaaltHrl .ot quite the whole perlocl. 1 aU,_ th.r. _tll the la.t wet i1l

October. I, that ti .. the crista bad •• tUed dova_

MaUoffa v ..... t be ill 1962.

!fatloff: leeau.s bJ '63 you _1'. alrs.d, ill .'fO. t.aDltzara Thi. 1. rl,ht.

4

.. . ' . '- - - ..... -

Page detemiined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief, ROO, WHS lAW EO 13526, Section 3.5

tJate: JUl 1 7 2013

let1o", '-t'. co. 1Iac1r. to .10 DOW, .... '11 focu OD Cllat _H. Do,...

ncall, ti. JGU racei .... a1 iutl'UCdOll •• wtttaa or onl, "'fo~. ,au _at to

. ~- .. -- ... _ .. _ ... - . . .

the 1A'tO a •• ta-at. llyn .lthe~ ", the fr •• l_t. o~ the "anta~ of ., ... ,

Di •• .,.... i_tnet JChI •• to .01 of dl. pn1t1_ o~ poalttou thee tM Vatt ••

Stete. -aht be taU ... tbat woul. au1 •• or o!Utat JOU 1.,our .. poeitloat

t.a1c..rl .. 1aad lIH. 'l.cu.l .. til. nUef of Oneal Bontact _twa the

Jol.t Chief. of Staff .1Ul the Def .... ..,.pa~maltt. !beD, witb tbe Cu.a .t .. lle

cri.ta com .. do .. r1aht bebla. It, eMft ~. ao Witta. latncd_ ...... t

.. _ra11:r ...... 1. oa certd ..... at. of eM ,.lIei .. tbat _ wn c.milll

o. at tue tiM •

.. tloff: W.o _ .,.c1&1 larl.Uq .., tile h •• U.Dt o~ ..,. the "cnter)' of

Def._t

lAIIaltaara 110. He ..... I ba&l -1l1 opporC1lDltl •• la ., cauct. with the Pr •• -

Sde.t to 41Ra. cartai ••• pecta with hill"! Ifov. OM i.,ortaat •• peet ber ... .

_~ "'p1, 1_01 ... McaU •• Ga •• "r.ta. Mel ha4 Urt .. the aa.ertiM •• 11.

beart .ttack. aacI he •• ftl'J .DX1ou. to atep out. I w. ca.1q up to ..... tory

~.t1r __ t .... or clo •• to It. I ~.ca11 ou .. , tbat tbe '~ •• i'.ltt •• talkS ..

about haw ... hoal. _t. the tr ... itloD. • bew of ., ••• oclatiolt witb JlAfO fraa

the day. of Hr. 'orr •• tal. ""eD 1 repre.eate' tbe Ualte4 State. _11 ........ 4raft-

111.& the lIATO tr_ty. Be co.sl'ereel that I hacJ the .... t bacqrOUllCl aad •• pedeuce

of M1'O ._ that I .bould tab that ......... at. rather thall .11'J' otber. I potate'

out to the PHIi_Dt Oil tMe oec .. to ......... tbb ....... r talbd .bout wry .acb

UDtll .. lot lato pretty dee, trou1tl. fr_ it-tbat I dl •• • t thi_ I sboald

acc.pt t'be .oalnation alld the appolabaDt of SACIUa. becaWie 1 .. cOlli .. up to

s

. , Page determined to be UnclaSSified Reviewed Chief, ROD. WHS lAW EO 13121. Seatlon 3.5

tJate:JUL 1 7 2013

J .. _ ..... _-._ .. :.....-.... ~ I;. .... ;., ... : .... _""_ .......

...... tor1 ntlE_t .... '1'Id. up .. t hi •• )It. B ..... ·t till_ that ct.at ' ••

too illport&1lt a. b... l\at 1 polate4 01lt tKt for .. , .all, .. tha, both .1

Cld.af of Staff of the AnI,. .D' .. Cbal:rau of the JDiat Chi." of Stalf. I ...

CoraataDt1y coDfroDted with q .... UOD •• bout c.rtal. officer. tD tbe !IA'fO elUaac.

tbat 1 had kaaWD for ~rlou • .., po.itlODI--.aa, of dI •• 're.ch ... lritl.h,

Dot .0 _a, '-EMIl. lut thera ....... 1'.1 t.actaDC, to be ..-iDatl ... r.tln4

Plopl. for bJ POIUtO.IGIl SAClUIl'1 Itaff. I told the Pnatelnt WI', fraUl,

that OD .. al'J OCcaalOD I rac_DCl •• the tul"ld.llt: 40n of aD officer that va

pi .. to .. retlre4 .. ,"*14 .. aD the IIIAfI ataff. 1 recall., wr ••• that

tbara .1 a t.tuleIac:, III the AlU.a.ce 1. the lat. '50 .... earl, '6Oa that ..u It look alIIoat 1J.1r.e a ntb ... t club, _4 that Sa awl', ca .. 1 ha4 nc.MDCIe •

... la.t Chi.. v. ... 4 cOD814.ra'1. dlle •• io •• OIl tbll. To viact up 1Ibat the

atatul ...... 1 ¥eIlt to 8IIAPI. the ' .... td •• t bad 10M uto the pa, ... the

approprl.teae •• of • retin. offie.r, .... I to14 hi. tbat I bacI .ef1Dlce1, .ad. up ., .1" tbat •• htlr.d officer 1 would be the wroq periOD to take SACBUL

TIle Pr.ltd •• t .... Chll c .... t. -DOD'C vorl', about that. I'll tau c.r. of

that.- '0r ,eara. 1 _WI' kae_ bet_ it •• takeD car. of. Up tau1 that ti_

"".11 the 'n.:l.de.t ....... ataated, 1 ha. recelftd 1aO word froa bla, INC ..

bact lODe 8heacl, aDd 1 co.lid.red that 1 bael DOt be_ retired.

Macloff: Vera ,ou bd.fed by ,our pnuc •• aor, G. •• lorn.d, vbell ,ou c:a.e "art

I.eaD1t •• r: Ye •• 1 VaDt .",er url" ill •• pt .... r. 1 n .... r that I W been

.owa 1. Port Br ... for a de .. ltratf.OIl witla Pr •• tout EaBu4,. We wen eltabUlla-

ill8 the Gn .. I •• t .. WbUa I Val do1ID ther •• I lot a ...... that .. nh,. ..

6

• •• - ......... _ ... '- ._ ..... ___ ._.; ...... ;L;.1.:..:J.,~~ ....... ;.I..:.:.;_:._ . .!..:;t.~ ........ ~ .••• ,I .•... .;.. ..... _ • <.t.. • .. _.~ ___ .• _,_._. ___ .... ,

.. , Page determined to be Undassified Reviewed Chief, ROD, WHS lAW EO 13526. Section 3.5

Llate: JUL 1 '1 2013

to _ froa Gaeral lor.ta', •• ,1 .. that Q ••• De Gaull. "air.' to take "Wilt ...

of tM opportualtJ to iat.n1 •• __ for. tHl_ n.r. OM •• ,eet of thta v ..

that t kMv c...ral De 0au1la ill World War II, _eD be took ner the po.1ti01l

mat the JOiDt Cbi.f. of Staff aDd 100 .... 1i aDd Cburcbl11 bad i1Ulieated that

GeDeral Glr •• u. .boa1e1 take. l....t ca .. blaaca dudaa tile aeet1q tbere

[J ..... r, 1143). 80 1 be. Gn. D. Gaulle quite well, bacau •• _ had .. ,

cOllfer.ace. d .. i.., V01'l' War I I. V. bad wr, .i"F.uble .d acri_1l1ou.

_eU •• where he ... UJlaa to equip .D Al,.daa .... a IIoroccaa 41.i.108 .. •

•• 18 for 101. ..cit iDto Fraac... V. cUd.' t haft ecoup .qul,...t to equip our

OWD .1.1.io .... aDd ". ver ••• 1111& vith •• fldta. But wile. he i .... ieat •• that

be vaata4 to htente ..... t ¥ea411, .ccepted. 1 c:aIItI ewer .4 .pellt a .....

... .... r.1 .. ye of the fol1ovtaa ._It vith CeDeral Roratad at SlAPE aad I bad

about • aro-bour 1Btan1ev with Oea. De Gaulle. It we OIle of the •• t _lubl8

bac:karowul _perleDe •• for thi. poat thet I ••• r bad.

!tatloffl Did,.ou I.t aD, cl .. at th.t ti_ that Fuace .1&ht be 101DI a_I' •

•• parate va,' LeIm1t8.r~ Ro ..... olutely DOGe. Be .. ke. _,. wr, Barp q ... t1ou pertaiDlaa

to ay .teva on auc1_r -,ou. aDd for about .. hour .nd a half. If I recall

correctl,. I ...... verla, hi. queaUou. Thall I recall that th.r .... a

_. low l'411ke to be frank with you .. d t.l1 10U 1Ihat the pollc,. of the lreDCh

10T.r ... t ..,111 be durlD, the pertod whea you take oyer •• Sup,..... Allied eGa""

...... 1'.. That ... a "I',. v.1uab1. tJacqrouad for .. , to deal with hi. perao.all,

aad vith tbe FreDch .~.ra.eDt.

7

..

. ~ • I _. ' ................ __ ..... ~ ,. ,; ". '~".' .. :. ~ ", .

Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief, ROD. WHS lAW EO 13U8, 81Ot1on 3.5

UI": JUL 1 7 2013

I. .. . ~ .. ,- .

... tloffl Ve'll COIle Mck to Che PhDCb ,,"0 .. 1 ... lat.r _. if ,....,. Do,au

&-ecall how 1_ did ,0. ate, jut v1~ the etlan bat, Mfore JO. took .er

1.eaa1taerl 0.. ..atll. !bat leD't qulta rilht. 'fvo _atu. V. vua .:Mcl.led

to ba •• botb ceUMDle. the fine Df .o ...... z. 'l'bat t• vbJ I veat oyer la tbe

la.t ._ of October. lC'. tIlt.r.lt.iDa al.o ... a .1d.ll,ht. that DeaD Ache.on

1eft Va.h1D1toa the .... day a. I dtel, b)' diffenat traa.portatlGll, to ap,.ar

.fore the 1A1'O Cawu:ll, aDd alla)' Ita collCeru about the llanelli .. of the al.­

aile cdeb. ....'101 va)' ahead, beea •• a 1 caa alva),. reMaHr CaD. De Gaulle'.

word. to _ n .. at .. l, .... "ou14 A" -C. .. r.l, JO'lE Ih.ld.at UDclertook .. jor

decieloa. duri. .. the sla.Ue cri.ta without aa)' coaaultatloa ... u .... r "ith dae

AllS. •• _ la .... that C01Ild haw n.ulted 1D • _cl .. r .. r. w Be repeated that,

1 a-. at l_et tea U.s, dud.,. ., teaura. But Deaa Acbe.oa did Reb • _pU­

le ... t jolt of ....... tl111 the .1tuatlOll chadlll the ate.U. crl.ta iD October, ad

tba rapldltJ' vitia Vbteb ........ vel'. fl),lal back ad forth, that be coariaeeci

tile Couucll dlat bda. there ... DOt ti .. for couultatlOil. ..... be left, tbe

Couacll Ullaai-.al, aaned that it bad be.a baDdl.cI •• ry akillfully aDd .ery

couraleoualy It, pze.14ent IeaDl4y.

!latloff: DU GeII.l'al De Gaulle COIla Mclt to the "n4!ina of thia laaue later

oa. or _. thac ju.t at chi. poiat"

LaaltHr z VIIa.wl' we atarted talk1q .bOdt .. ,tbilll DUel.ar t he vou.ld Willi

ltup. A. a _tt.r of feet, Cu. De Gaulle bad a vel', iatel'elUa, .taw.ent-"

DOt _1, 1f1tb .a. ltut with eMp JoIllen. aad allO vitb the D'Il1ud State. Govem-

•• ut--ia which. ¥bell eo .. anaUoa 'Ul'teel, or wbaa he v •• l.fomed or q1Jlrlacl

•

.. Page detennlned to be Unclassified Ravlewed Chief. ROD. WHS lAW EO 13528. SectIon 3.5 Uate: JUL 1 1 lOU

_ ....... , .• -l. .L'_ ...... 1_ .,. J

aHut .... tbi ..... wauld alv., •• " • _ 1 Mi. CODaulc", or .. 1 ... i.

11lf0med'-

"sloff: Vbat ... ,.r !DiU.1 collc.ptioll of JODI' _I ... IAClUlt Wbac ,rob-

1 ... 4id JOu f.c. Vbeu JOu took 09ar .Dd Vbat priorlt1 •• 41d 'OU •• t for ,our­

.. If, or "1' •• t for ,OU " the Pn.UeDt or the Seeretar, of Wen •• 111

__ 11. ,our fuaccioaef

J.e.dc .. ra DIe pro.l ... _1'. tho •• that .,·· ....... ce.aor ... ., acce.aol'. f.cecl.

It ... onlo_ that we bad to put tbe _In .ffort _bulldllll 11, aA'l'O'. ccnw ....

tioaal force.. ... n.ult of the Athen. auld.UM ••••• U .... ""lcb I att.eaded

vbeIa tM IlUclear problea •• fir.t dealt riCh, tile _ .... ta ... put parcicularl,

OD the Ganau •.• 1It dale ... proltlea v1.tb all oftha lIA.'IO c:ouDcrte.--Rorva,.

De_rk. eau", .... the re.t of tu., tr,l ... to..u c.utllaat. to •• t the

forca au1. that _ bad •. S ... ral 1Ilcld.lltal Chi ...... P ..... which cau.ad cltf-

f1c:ultJa lerU.a, for • ..,1., cau." probl ... r .... ted1'. Ther ••• clUficu1cy

.... bara. __ t _ the Auto'babu, alld thell ill til. all' corndera. "peat.cl1y &be

.. t.t OdOD voutd poiDt out that It va. 101111 to conduct ."I'che., a. for

48 houra it va DOt .. ,. for ., otber pla._ to f1, ill the air corridore-JUlt

Hatloff: DicI the cbaDa. of eda1D.btrat1oD. which took place while JOU were SAClUa,

the cuo .. fro. XeDaed, to Joh .... oll 10 1963, or the ebaD .. lat.r OIl 111 the Secratar;

Df Defeu.' a office fro. He .... r. to CHUord 111 1968, in m, _, .ffect )'OUr pri-

oritl •• or ,our coac.ptloAe of yo~ 1'01. in SACIUl!

..... lc .. r: Y .. md .... All I told 1IJ .. cli.a.u acthe Ei •• uOlMr ....,rial ill baa.a,

ODe of the firat thlllla 1 rail Illto v •• the Secreta,", of Defaue ncI ODe of hie

9

..... _,. -_ ............ --:.~ ...... _..--',.-. ~- ....... -!.!.. ........... __ ~ .. :.;t....!:l; ... 't..'1!"'; .... _.;.._ .. 1',"": I ..

· . Page detennined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief, ROD, WHS lAW EO 13526, SeGtlon 3.5

(Jate: JUL 1 7 2013

.. at.laDU coalq ow.r aacl Mid ... _ to coae doVll to the .... ., ill ... i., vldda 1 tboualat • .1 t add. Slac. tile, _1'. c-1Da to rl'.IlC8, I f.lt tbe,. .hould

c-. out tID SlAPE. It we Hr ...... 1'. ad 111'. lit •• , he .. of 11.\. Att.r ..

sot lato tbe .o-call .. ·c ... _va III tbe .. b ... ,. la '.1'18, wh.n coaf.rene.a

Cdok plac. withia a 1'0_ tbat ... IUrwuad.d b1 ateal.. 1 w.. told that th.,.

bai c.. to tile coac:lual.oa that I .boald reo .. pat.. the 8JIAPI .taff.

ItaUoff I ru... _1'1, 1. ,.our railaI'. .. SAClUaf

lAalturJ Duri ... * fl.r.t coupl. of Matba. '!'be, _ra C01lY1=a. that I

.hould ..... ., .taft orpat ... lato _clear ead co1lY.aU .. l HctlolUl. I had

..... throuah dlla propo.ltlO1l III a .tad,. dur1aa .,. chaina_hlp of tbe Joillt

CbI..f. of Staff, aa4 we ca_ to the coacl.l0. tbat it WHa'.t f ••• lble or

d •• 1r.bl., ... that it coul •• 't fUDCtl.oa .ffectl •• 1,..

Hatloffl Tba al11 ••• tafl!

LaIID1t •• r: "I'be all1_ ataff. 1 pol.tad I.e aut .. thn _ th1. occaaloa--Valtar

Sto .... 1 aec_,.aiad _ Oil thla .1.1t, tbat 1011 ca't •• ,.r.te • tactical air-

Cl'aft that caa drop alther • CIO •••• tioul 01' ... cl .. r .... poD; ,OU. be". ... t11-

1.1'1 that call fl.l'. auclaal'\or coa •• atioul .apo ... , ad :JOur lDtalllp.c.

"Ill t .. parabl. by coavelltlonal ad maclear. 1 .... a p&'.tty &ood feal for

dU.., due to ay .xpert.lIC. 1ft the Jolnt Chief. of Staff, .Dd .0 1 .ald, -.0 way.. Oa the ntum to SHAPI, JIr. Sto .... l ... vel', cODcel'lled that it looked.

11 .... 1 alpt be fl.recl. 1 told tbe Iroup that 1 would oal, .tart re0l'laDl •• tlon

of ., .taff I.f 1 lOt th. dir.cUw fr .. the CoUDc:ll. lut I alao polnc.d out.

if 1 lOt IUch a 4irectI. •• fl'. the COaDcU. it 'tIOUld be •• to pc anotbar SAClUB.

lfatloff: What .. Sto .... l'. poaltl0. at thia U_'

10

'.- ...... .. -'. - .. ----- . ...._.. -... -, ..... .

DECLASSIFIED IN PART Authority: EO 13528 Chief, Records & Dlclass Div, WHS Date: .JUL 1 7 2013

""ttMrl ••• ., ... , •• ~ OD tacenaUOMl .ff.ln .... OD ....... taff.

!!!sloff I .... the adYlMr to IACIVL

I.!!el5!!J I 'I •••

llatloff. 'lllat .... ttiDa off thea to .a tat.n.tt •• tart with tbe Secuur,

of .,.f .....

L!eitaert la4H4 it .a ... t tba foUotda.!Iay l.at to At .... "'CIa "cnte..,

..... 1" ....... t that •• tllll the a.c1ear pnbl_ •• cIt.cu ••• a" c-.tc.nt • • __ for the •• of vatted Stale ... ,... ... U.1tI. to JAtO. 1'ha At ...... 'd.l1-a

na117 put .. , ... at ••• t •• a_lear _,. lIeca ... _ .Watt haw tbe .naaa-ata

canfa117 .. l'Ir.ed aut Wore ......

KaUoffs Dt. 70U h1l lata allJ atlter probl_ with ~. __ 1". 1. JOUl" ca,..t~

' .. IAClURt

t.a.itAljl I ca. ctte ja.t OM probl. that I bad with 1Ir. Ifc1Iaara. I .... ~ .. t

,...aaan oa _ to -atnaal.:I .. - cia. 8IIAPI .taff .... cia •• lliad fa~c • .--..rt_l"a.

caatr.l. aoutllen Burape. a.la. fore ...... tbea.t (lail). ODe of tM _.t 4if-

ftcult pl'o1»l .. that I llatl with Hr. lIe .... a •• the fact that __ 1'. pi .. to

noqaDlH tta. ataff .t Ialr. lIoat1, Turki.h ... er •• forc •• _r. tllYOlw4. uDor

alUed force.. lat the 81ath A1U_ 'factical Air .arc ••• lID.el, ,-nca •••• 4

1t alaa bad t ... 11' fol'c... In utt,. an aDal,ai. for tbe .tr.altaiD, .f that par­

ticul.r ateff. vbaa ". .abldtt .. our propo .. 1, 1 80t word fl'. va.hlaaa:oa--tlda

•• DOt • writteD e1trac:t1..-chat thel'. wS"_ too -1l1' ""dcau OIl tllat .taff.

aDd that there ... «1 to It. aD _"DiYalaDt ...uat of Onek.. 'furta, aael _ncaa ••

I took violeat i ••• with thle. I I'ecall .., ja.Uf:lcaUoa.

11 :J5 3.3(b)l Ct, )

------~ ," -:~....... -. . .... ~ .... '. . . ' .. -....... ,~ ...... _~ ........ ~ •. _.-'.a.;,. .!. ... :...-.:.t.- ._.", '" .~.,

• I

JS 3.3(b)l (0 )

DECLASSIFIED IN PART Authority: EO 13526 Chief, Records & Decllss Div, WHS Date: JUl 1 7, 2013

I1at the poSat ."1' lOt .CI'N.. Be Ilk. __ raJ juat

alapl, tIOUl •• 't &11' •• vith St. I 'o.'t tld_ it •• ~I' caned d_. _t _ "'1' 1' ... 1 .... tid. pal'Uea1ar 1 .... ad.factodlJ.

*"off ... ofta. cU.. ,.. _t vith the _retal'J of .f ........ othel' to,

official.' I' ••• U ..... alaouc the wont .. nladouhl,. 1. tbe couu of

,oar 10ea te.al' ••• ucn:a.

te.dt •• 1'1 1 actuM' a areat -117 of the naul.1' •• tS..... 1 ~t tbat.

ebeN .... Sa Dec .... 1' uell ,..r ..... Seh .. a _I'JWpoI'taat _ .... ,. out'

ltate .... Del.... SecntaI'S •• aad lol'u" .tala tel'. aDd _f .... lISaS.tal' •

• u...... 1tIaa I dl •• ful' aouat of coetactSaa ." ., 'ri.lt. back ben. to

Load_. Ioaa ..... 0 OIl, to lutap Sa toucla with top 1dlltal'J. fol'.Sp polic"

..... , .... peopl.. 1 1IOal ••• , that I ....... ttapt .t Jaaat thn. u •••

)'aU' to c_ Sato CODtact with the top poUtical .1 .... '. of tbe A11iaace.

Mat1off. Diel the ChaD" fraa 1Ie".ra to C1:1fforel •• Secntar, of Def ...

tonrel the .ad of 10111' taaur. ia 1968 .ff.ct YOUI' faction. 01' 1'01. :1. aD, .,t IAIm1tHl'1 110, 1 eltela't ha". too !lUCh CODtact with Hr. ClUford. Whee b .....

• .s.:1t, 1 think to Ital,. I wat elcnm to ... hu. Be va. _It:1a. eeothar tour.

1nJ.t la orel.1' to ..... paraoul CODtact v1th hl_ •. I l.ft ., .... ctq .. rter. to be

wher. he va.;

12

.. . .. Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief, ROO. WHS lAW EO 13526, Section 3.5

[Jate: JUL 1 7 2013

...... -~---~. -~--.:--- ... _,:. -~ , ... - .'

.tloffr Vere 70U ... lina •• el, Vitia OlD tbl'OIIlb the heretel', of Deh ....

or .. n then otber officiate 1D OlD that 10" uae iDtO coatact witb dul'1l11

70ur periCMI .. SAClUa,

Leaic •• rl _tl, throqb the Seeretar, of W ..... 01' bb lSI. people, 1Ibo vera

... r, .acla 1Il .. o1~ecI.

Hatloffc V .. th!l'e aacb co.tact Vitb tha "1*&1 Secretad .. of WaD .. '

LeaDls.er& Wot .. aI', oft... ODl, if it bappeMd that OIl • °dait back ..... tha

Sec:1'.tal'J .. off .... a particular tdp ad 1 ...... t a.llable to .et hi ••

HaCloUc Bow ... at •• ti ... vitb the "rlca. J01Dt C!a1afa of Staff or tbeir . Cbatrau, i.e 7aur nla .. SAClURf D14,.au co.. lato freq ..... t coatact vitia tbetI,

z..a,ttaerl " ••• ee.al'a1 ra,lor, aad tuo Ce •• ral .... 1.1'.

Chief. of Staff, ad .at tl ••• Without .atd..,. to ... m. Seer.tal'J 01' tba

Depat,.

Hattoff. Bow about the .orki .... lettoa.bi,. with our State Departaeat

.Dd Ita Secratal'J!

LalRdt .. rl 1 .... -I'J little difficulty Vitb that. I kept 1D doe. touch.

alaee Chip Boble .... clo.e fr1e.d of at •• vbea I va. SACIlJIl. Ve ,ot .1oa&

Iobl.D vhe. be va. re11.".4 aad •• a coal .. back to reUre, that It ... ODe of

the •• t wor1d.q nlatioa.hl,. .tva ... the aUltar, ad the 8tate De,.rtllant

w1tbiD U.8. circl •• that 1 could "1 .... U ...

Medoff I 1Iov about Witb the Secracary of State, DeaD IuIIkt Did you ba_ .... ,

deaUQ8. wi tb hi. 1a ,oar capac! t, a. SAClUat

.' ......... 4.. . ............ "" ........... ~.: ·t!h-......... ,# ... ; ....... . -.. -. .. .. -... " - ... .... ... -. - .. ..

f •

. I

Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief, ROD, WHS lAW EO 13&ai. Station 3.S

lJate: JUL 1 7 2013

I4!!itnFt 'I •• , at t ..... _tt •• 1 alw, •• de it • poiat co ... t atlt .....

"'", ht aot .a ottea a. I .id With tM lacretary of .,. ....

"tloff. ... .bout w1tla the IJalt. loa •• , D1. J01J haft .lrect acee •• to the

JIIn.icleat ,. tlda _,.cit,t

'..-U .. rl •• , I did, aacl I took adftatlp of tt, to at lean _b • call,

with h •• t",t InDad, aad lTa.le1at Jolauoa, eM two prlac!,.l ODe. dud ...

11& Cloff I Did JOU Mtlc •• .., e ....... I. their Pl'lorlti •• toWar' IA'IO, .....

et." .... c"iIpoftr fF. I.nMdy to JobuOD' Wu there aDY dt"anac.!

~ta.E I Yaa, Iraakly. I did.' t f.al tut ,"d4a.t Jolma_ W the ._

.r •• p or aadentaadi .. of 1Il'l'O that Pre_i_e .... 7 411.. fta .... _ 110 fric-

tioa _t I jwlt falt that maid.at ....... ., ... _api ... ill IlUCIa _ra do ••

toadl ftth ... t .... "..1aa ill the 8fO .na •

... Sloffl 81d,ou 10 .treetl, totha .. pre.ld.at ... a JOU .atec! to pt la

touc:h IfI.tIa tha, or di. JOU .... to 10 tlll'OUlh til. DC ... i.tuU

t....:lta.r: •• '1M foball. I u.ed "eu I'd ...... .tait back bare •• to

•• t the a.traall. Joillt Chief. of Staff, to au .rr ....... t. for a ,,1aU for

_ vlth the Sacret&r7 of Def.a.e or with the Deputy Secretary, aDd 10 011. It

... all .rra.... rl.ht throuah tbia SHAPE L1ai.oa office.

llatloff: You .. at throuab the PeDtaaoa. throuah the S11APS Ltaboa OffSce'

1.eanitzerl Y •••

llatloffa AacI they woulcf pt 111 coatact with the .. dODa! Security ... iauat,

to arraDie a ._Uaa wi th the predcfeatt

,

14

'" .... &_.~ ~'. ' ..... • ·~.,,,,,,,., •••••• i·.;" ..... ~ ..

, . • . :-;Jo : ...• t::. .. _. __ .. _ ..... . ..... ~'- ~. .. ...;. .. ;.' .. .:-._ ....

Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chl.f, ROO, WHS lAW EO 1352" I.otlon 3.5

(Jate: JUl 1 1 2013

• .... -=. •••• ~ _-:; _'.: :.f" _.. .' ', .• '

,«"tg.F' .. ct. cornet. :I ha.,. ...... t l_cer •• t III C1d. office, ... ...

ill NI'. 'orn.tal t .... , .... Laal • .fohuoll' • .." .for. IIAPI IOt- •• tablS ... .

. ill tile bot.l III "1'1., _ had. hell of. t1M coad1Ictiq .onel .Waf.tuti _

_ i .... owr -til. cel.pbosla. I c ... up Witll the ide. tlaac W •••• 11 "Ill. tllet _ W to ba ... dinet coatact •• Dd I I'.C ...... tlaat eM. l1ttl. office

.... ta.U ..... rtaht ber ••• Ild tbat tben be • l .... d 111l ... ew •• ban .Ild

IIIAPI. It' •• tUl workt ....

"cloff ... f.r Net .oe. tllt. offie. 10'1 We'r ...... 1 .. ..., .bout tbe .....

Li.l.OIl Offie. la til. Peatqoa.

L!Pd u.t: Va, baet to 19.9-50 •

• tloff. 'ftd. ba •• loq hi.tor, t. It.elf.

lfatltffl IIoIr .bout ,our r.1atiouh1,. with Coaan"'1 WeI" 'ou ofte .. call.d

beell. to teatlf" .

LlludtHrl Y ...... ~ ,,'1'. I ~.t1fl.d befol'! the .. 1'1011. c.m.tt ... 011 fo~

.lp r.l.tiOll ..... pollc7. particul.rl, vlth 1"181'. to the .tl1tal'J .ld proar".

Matloft: Did 7- flad eo •••• r.tller ',.,athetlc tGlrard tbe uro probI_t

Le-aitz.rl I fOUlld ar •• l iat.r •• t III ..... -1lY of th. paopl. 111 COqr ••••

III other _ra ... bacl peopl. 111 eolllr ••• that took arut 111tere.t. otber. IlOt

.0 IlUCb tatere.t. but we tried to ke.p ill touch witb tbn. partlcularl, witb

Mr. Vb.oa •• Dd tbe chaSnea of • coupl. of tbe IdUtary c:a.dtt ....

lladoff: Va. tb. tbruat of tbe tlltere.t of CODIJ ••• larp17 011 the atl1tal'J .1cJ

Pl'0lr .. IIOre tbaa OD otber •• "et. of IIATO'

.15

. /~" .. ,"C"~ "", ' •• ':" ~ ".a.-..: __ !",!, .• _~,,,,,. - ::I· ... i~ .. ~:·:·-; ....... _ , ___ ._ ... . .... ............ : •••• 0 .... _.

_. ~ ••• " •• ...&,.. .• - .".~.)~~ •

. . DECLASSIFIED IN PART Authority: EO 13526 . Chief, Records & Declass DIY, WHS Date: JUl 1 1 2013

JewaJ'HI. y ... ~iMd17 tM a'd pOF'" aM tW~ ''''a.tt ... tllat ,..., ••

lluto ... tile fofte. la lurope buil. up faata~ •• IUI tbat the Valted State.

c.r~s" tDO ...m of • load.

lat1off. ... .... t tba WDrU ... retat'ollald,. with the IA'IO Coactlt I .. ther

chat ,.. _~a Ie f ...... t touch with the Coact1.

L!EttUJI ... IIDt too aucla witla tbe COv.IIaSl. INt I'. 11_ tllat,ou _tia

It. ba_ ... 1 _Satat..-d the cl0 •• at coatact willa Ibe lacratazy Cnaral. I

f0aa4 dlat cJd. ••• aU_I, 'aportaet.

llaSlof'. Did '" .... 1' filid that wutna JOU .. noaa bat ... 11 ... ,ot lato

cODfltct witla the .111 .. batt Did the two .... 1' IS.,. ,.. ,roW_'

t..8a1t .. r I IIot .PecSflca11, •• 0. !bat ... 80t the cu.. I .... the ... pla of

., ~e1atl .... witll c...-raJ IUIIA" fto •• l.ter .... etdnt of 'l'\arbJ. VheD I ••

CbJ.f of ltaff of the ..,. he •• obtai of .tafl. I _iataS_d c1 ... coatact

ath c...-nl ...... , for tile r.a .. 11 tbat be va. a "1'1 !aportaat ftaura t"r .....

0- .. re dol111 our .... t to ... 114 up the 'lurld.1I foree ••

MIIdofft I.et'. coaceDtr.te • 11tt1. btt DOW OIl .TO po11cie. durS .. ,oar taaura.

Wbat polie, &lacbloa. of MTO 414 ,OU coaatder •• t taportallt duri .. ,oar teDal"e'

te.lf.tHrl Sh'atea1 W. OM of the 1IO.t difficult of all. The .... 1'.1 .tntelY

_ •••• Iv. nUU.Uoa. aDei before I left thie 1Iutld1al •• Cbalraa of the

.J01.t Chi.f. of Staff. I •• ccnwtaced tbat that wa. the ROllI str.t • .,. I

foaad _1'8 .Dd .or. people. aUltary .... c1YU1a •• "1' •• 1111 witb... To _Ite •

10ea atozy' .bort, thi •• r .... at "lit OD uDtll 1968, vb.D Cea. De Gaulle withdrew.

16

,._. -.~~."'"

, .'

. . . .... _ ..... - .. ,_.'- ......... .

DECLASSIFIED IN PART Authority: EO 13526 Chi.f, Records & Declass Div, WHS Date: JUl 1 7 2013

. "'-. ... -- -~.-- . :.

'. talk at~at..,., a1D.c ... 'ft IOttn ott oa th. a.jeet. 1'_ aa"

eM _jor problaa t •• .,., atraCltl7, I tab it, that tM .oat .... t tbrut ... OD

.. at ... nta1iaUoa ... yeN e ... illto tM poat. Di. &Il7 ella .... occu~ 111 the

attatear' wldl. ,.. _~. IAClUat .

I,eDlta!rl 1' •• , .. CHapel oweI' to • flUt .. l .... apona.. I c1wap. It III the "

lut 7'lU'a.

lfatloff: Do JOU .. ecall J'OQr role ia tbe IIA'1'O u .. acqic plaaataat Vltat ... the

...... 1. tbat ,OU ..... itt Dl. JOG pla, ••• cUft I'ola ta the ahift!

t..dtI!Jl Of eoar... I .a earct.lll1 all the PUIIb aad pr...... that 1 coal.

to .. t to a fl.zibl. 1'.' .... , "cau .... 1aac1 .acb DUtwm COIIC.pC. that If

thel' ••••• attack lar"l't"'a a bl'tlada, .. wouU r •• pond witb ••• d_

lIUCl .. r attack. It .1.II't __ a1l1 a." •••

IIttloff: Vb.1I do ,OG piapolllt the .hlft III the plaani .. conrd flad.bl. r •• pcm •• r

l.e.a1t •• rl It _e aU 4urtDI wy t:t_. bec:aua. Nil I •• JCS a.a1r.an, .. faIt

Jfatlofft I thtak that III _.t of the ftlttlll oa RAto tM ,.al' 1967 la ".uaU,

11".". »0.. that eow. about ripe?

ta.att •• r: '61, '68, ,. ••

Matloffl What va. ,our attitude to_I'd the buildup •• 4 u •• of nuclear .. apou!

Row eltd 1011 f •• l about that ,.I't of 1 t, both Itrat.slc ad tactical'

17

·.-. ---"'---": -'--'-'- ..... ".-

Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief, ROD, WHS lAW EO 13526. Section 3.5

Uale: JUL 1 7 2013

•• ' • 4 ..... _ .... t_~.~ ... _. _ .... t...-.._ ...... ~ .. _ ....... ..;._~~--.. ,'",

....... lta.rl 1 tbouaht it .. atr ... l, 1aportaat. Bar.'. ""re I r.ach "clL

to vbea 1 •• tile AftJ Depue, Chief of Itafl of Plaia. and ..... rd.. the DUcl_r

.... ,.. wr. coalq atema au we ver. chaaa1aa wr ph.. to k • ., t:hn lal .. rated •.

'!be ' .... ttOD of the utUb.Uora of DaCI •• r ... pon. va. "rJ Iliah OD the pr10ri tJ

ltat to be aur. that ... be. _t .. vue dolq, ...... theJ are locat ••• aad

tho .. c1rc\I88taace. UDder which we f.lt that the UN of DUct.ar ... po ....... ld

llat10ffl Bow about JOUr .ttitude towarcl _clear _rna coa •• tlcma1 .. r .... t

'«Pit •• ra We _r. aHoluc.l, cODviaead that .. dida't bave th ..... rewitbal

to pat up .. effecU .. CD1IY.atloaal .. f ..... d_ to til. 1Idta1aac. of fo ... ce ••

NaUolf. 'ftaea. c01IVe"tioNl fore .. bd to ... bullt up'

t.e.alta.r: I'or 81& ea •• ball ,.. .... I va Supre. C. EnOr 111 luro,. 84 1

reaUHcl tbat luwia.a the aab1.p1t, of the .... of DIIe:lear veapoa •••• tile thi ..

that sa- _ tbe det.rreot tIIat ....... d. 10 dale i. a are.t diuppoiDtMIlt I

ha.. tha.. da,a WeD ci ... lllau people. aDd I d_' t UIoW of .. , ailltar, ODU.

N, chat dl ... cl.ar weapoo 11 ... 1.... It baa 1'I"0014ed u 34-35 ,ur. aDW of

prot.ction 1D Burope Vitia naller cODftnticmal force. tUn the poteuti.l .... ,

ha ••

• t10ffl !beG you nl1l feel tbat the uaa of the atrate,te: _t.rnDt 1& very

lIlporta8t1

.... U •• r' 'lilac'. riabt.

Hatloff: Did you eocouater ., differ.Dca., .Ull .,..lt1q about .traU" 1D

IlAl'O. 18 the Valted State.' outlook ... enu. that of the AlUe. 10 probl ... of

.trate,y!

18

,. _. • •. ·,:t )1 . .1:. :-:'l F _

Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief, ROD, WHS lAW EO 13526, Section 3.5

Date: JUL 1 '1 2DI1

...... t •• 11 .... 811 Uada of "actt ... tnMldtted co... I 1' __ 1' a

GerMD IIllliater of .. f .... Who •• _1:1 .ppol.tec1. \'he flnt chi. that ...

_at", ..... .t.U'" 81MP1. va. to ... t_ 1IIIC1ur pIa_ that would lln'Ol ...

c.~tala pert. of Gena.,. 'l'bat •• bi. laten.t iD it. Va bad npn_taU ...

ft:. the wart ... COUfttd... ... tbe vat t.d Itat .. occadOMll,--for euapl ••

oul' "pre,.Dtatlft OD the CouDcil--wbo voul.d " "1'1 f .. rful of tile U' of

auc1ear .. apou. But they a1apl,. cod'.'t ayoU the coacl •• loa that .. dida't

haw the co .... doul forc •• to .top a _jor IoYl.t attact. It •• til. aabiautt,.

of tba DUcl_r .... poa·"1fOU1d ...... 11: or DOt-Cut p_ u. the "terr.De •• 1 •

.q opiaioD. ellat ba •• d.ted for 35 ,..n.

llatloffa .. eloe.l, cu.d JOU won. With the 8ec:reter1 of Def .... aDd the Cbaimaa

of tbe JO:l.llt ad.f. la ptd.. t'he "opt1_ fa .1'0 of the fla1hl. r .. po .. '

.tr.te.,t Wen t~, helpful :l.a tbb r ... rdt Did theJ aty. '117 pu.h la tbb

cUnettOllt

1.eImltaer: . Peopl. bel" f.lt che .... , tut I did vba I wat oy.r there.

'!be ebaaa.oy.r 41.a't tau plae. UDtil 1968, .fte~. tb. Preach withdrew. I va.',,,'

at the IUlltary Cnattte ••• tt. la 0.10, .fter the heach .... d.eid.cJ to

w1tbdra, aacI the .. jor actloa that 1t took •• to r.e~d to th. CouDctl tbe

dopUoa of • tactical flexibl. r'_poa.e. '!'hat va_ the •• t1q i •• bouc Sepca.ber,

aDd til DeceaMr, •• 1 recall, the r.c .... adatIOD •• adopted, by the Def.a •• .ta-

i_ten bee ..... there va. DO 0 .. oppo •• d to It. De Caull. bad withclrawa.

lfatloff: 80 that there •• 110 .. rioa. oppolltfoa wttM. IATOt

LMm1taert Ro.

Jlacloff: 1lov ahaut tlie i_pact 011 BATO plaDDSqt I :I. ... lae there -.ute haft .... D

• lot of .ctlylt1 801a8 oa aft.r the adoptloa of the D!V .tratel1.

19

...

- ..... ~ •. _ •••. !... ,r .......... f ..... ~ .. ! .......... --. .... _ .... _ ..... __ • __ ........... 1

Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief. RDD. WHS lAW EO 13526. Section 3.5

[Jete: JUL 1 1 2013

LaIIIlU •• t' I A8. uttar of fact, DOt ..... ell .. ,." ClaiDk, Mea .... ".. with

tile .... i.,. htaU.atlon .tr" •• , •• 0 un1 attltud •• "I'. lncUDilll tow ......

fbubla n,poD.. that thlna. _re lIO'Vin, 1. that 41ractloa.

!llloff I low about the pl'Opo.al. for -the MI.? an' tbe AIr! I believe thoa. ca.

up durlna ,oar parl.n

lAmait •• rl lCLI"-.altl1at.ral force, 71'.

Madoffl What •• ,our .ttltu4e toVU'4 the MLF a.4 tM AlIFf Bow r •• llltlc

vera the .. propoMl., lta ,.our opiutoaf

Le!DitHrJ !'lie,. _ra propond by paopla tluat thoulhe daat the coac.pt. would

vork, for in'lanc., that 'OU __ 14 put lIi.d1 •• ChI. Ihl,., aDd 10 OIl, but whe.

Jou thouallt the whole tlaina aut, it .1 not f ... ible. !ben there v .. the 14 ••

that va VIr. 101na to haft HLP. au1tilatera1 forc., oa ." ... d.... 'lIIat fell

flat au. It. face 1ae41atel" beeaa •• the idea of hav1q • Polaril cre., for

-...pla. _de up of Greeb, Tub, Britl.h. aDd Alledca .. , l1.,lna to.ether ad

80 forth, In the kind of an _"lr~t of 60 da,. 1D the oc.... va 1apo •• lb1e.

NatloU. Tbie •• an effort, I latur, b, tho •• who were propoliDa tJae .. two

plan. to cut the ElIro,.. .. 1. 011 the DUel .. r veapoDl')'.

Laa1tHr& 'l'bat 1. ablol"telJ correct.

NaUoff. 1 take 1t ill ,.our .,111. the,. _re DOt haliltlc propola1l'

LeMltzar: Y'" I would .ay that you're r1ahe on tllat. I felt that eMY vere

DOt nali.tlc.

Matlolf: I .bould have put It thb -:r-vh,. 41d the, faU of adoption'

Le1ID1t.arl "caUl. of tlua penon.e1 prob1 ... lu.,ol.e4--foo4. Pl1. clotillaa.

tralD1na. beCkal'OUDei. v. flDal1, ca •• arOWld-l elle1, before I aot over to

20

................ -- ..... .,:._ ......... _ .... _ ... -. ,,' , ,

Page determined to be unclassified Reviewed Chief. ROO. WHS lAW EO 13526. Section 3.5

Oate: JUL 1 7 20\3

IlBAR-tbat ,..t. lot to ....... Sta of cal'tala _UOMlSCSaa. I tlaiM I ._

conSKH of It Salona. "'I'a .. bad • 611,,1_1011 tbae .a "1'Sca1l .... t _

had .ttached .EtMopiau .... COl_bl .... ., battaU .. 81 ... or ., nalMatal

at... I.tapat •• uatta 1 .. the cOlidact of .sUtal'J .,.ratt ... 1IDU1d DOt -'I'k.

I'll .. "cit to the MatDld.q of WlI. wllea I .. a coni __ of chi., AM. til ..,

tallt .t the U •• a1loaal' ...at at .It hiat, I dted tile _cl.tOll of CUel'al

11HDbDwl' that you _pt be ... la laharatad .taff, INc l.t.l'at" fOl'eal of

"al't .. uti_ltttl. at the lowl' left1, WI tat ... tltl., ..... 11'.b1 •• ad

_ff.cti ...

MaUolf I SO 'OU _I'I oppoa.d, tlla., to the III ad the AlP?

JAlddtlal' I " •• , ••• C01IC.pt. but the, put ebe IILI' prl_I'U, t. 4 .. 11118 w1th~

tile lIla.l1 ...... 01.1, for the td.a that 10U juat .attoaecl. The, .... ted to

Ii". tbe .1'0 ..... a , .. 11. that th., _1" pal'ticlpatl. I. eM cODduct of • .,

.. 1 .. 1' operatlou that _ bact •

.. tloff I 1'be MF. which woul4 ••• to be • pale ,U"'I' of the otbel' plu,

a1.0. I tate It •• _reali.ctd

IAllDitK'1'1 t'b!. 11 I'ipt •

.. t1off: Wbat val the l'e1atlonlhlp Mtweell atratealc plamdea aDd aru cODcnl!

Did .!O .et 111 to thi. ar.a wh11. ,... "1" MClUU

te.Dltzer: Up ulltll the tt_ I left S1IAfE .ill 1969 there _1" r.all, Dot aU1 ".ry .. doue d1lculloal about arM cODtrol. It •• a't UDtil the la,kja"l1t .eUna

that they .... tbe •• ctaloa .~t aucual halaac.d 'ore. reductloll, DR. '!'hat

... the fir.t ca •• of aDY •• rlou. DaaotlatlODl for reductio. of force.. I

tMu that 0_ of the ... t aportallt factor. tD tlill r.prc1 11 that there va.

each. ar.at labalallc. bet ... D our fol'c •• aoc1 tho •• of the ~I'aa. ract.

21

Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief, ROD, WHS lAW EO 13528, Section 3.5

Dale: JUL 1 '! 2013

Matloffl Did 70- pt Sa oa tlaoa. ,i.ca •• tou .t &111

1.-.1g.r. ... DOt wl'J -.cia. oaly to polat out that if then _re aay ndac­

ttoa.. _ eCMald.· t au coapanlale r.ductt •• oa botb .t.... OS_ni.e ...

WODld ju.e aat1a_. aad _u .ora., tbe labalawaee •

.. t1off. 'l'bat tbe bal.Ke f •• ond tlle Wanw hct, '"tialerl, i. tM C01l'Mll­

tional atd.'

letU!r. nat'. correct •

.. tIoffc .... bout t. tlla "1'1,. part of yo_ t ... re, did," pt 'rna 1. OD

the d'aeaaat ... OWl' the 1tait" .ta.t 1NaD tnaty'lIl 1963'

Leatt .. rl ... 1 11M a"'flcl_~ 1movl'" _bout the 1IUC:1ear .. poa probl_

... I ...... rttl' t. fa 'lOr of the te.t .. trea". '!he Secnury of ·Stat.

ca. thrG\ll1a I ... OD hta Way Hcll to the Stat .. ; au .. aat., -You kDcnr,

Gaael'a1, Y" 'II .. wry tatere.t •• to 1m .. that after'" .1 .... the taat baa

treaty Ihna1lc .... lot up aacJ _n." arOUDd the caltl. 1'Ub1t1 .. bta banda aad

.. td, 'lOw 1et'a tra •• te.Dlt.er for Vorlebawloff or .... bo.y·.·

"I'J tlrpOrtaat raport, the Barael laport, tbat took plael dud .. your teaura ••

SACIUI. Do 'OU r_ber tbatt Did you haft a1l7 taput to Itt '!'bt. w. a fol1owap

o. tbe report of the thr .. vi •• __ Itaclt la the '50.. ...., ""1'1 1ft 1967. ript

... clt iD the atddl. of your taaure, aDd tbt. pro),l. about 41 .. 11 ... witb the

out .. de world cae up apl.: what .TO'. po.ldoa .hoal. be Oft probl ... that

arbe oatet .. it •• aolraphlc area or what kiDda of cODlultat1oD aboald take

place la tbe .Aln.nea OftI' aucll probl.... Did you lat d1'a. ia Oft tho •• cUe­

ca.aloa. at al1t

22

---_ .. _ ..... -.

~ ... ~ .. ~. . . , ... _ .... 0& .. u ................ ...-.....,:,I ........... _ •

Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief. RO~. WHS lAW EO 13526. Section 3.5

LJate: JUl 1 1 20ll

Jeept5Url IIot ftr, aach, for tba ree •• that the IdUtaEJ pnItJ •• van .. ....

t_l, co.;ani wtth ... of tba JOUCScal pro.,l_ tbat .tbeJ _0 ... cu.t .. .

lratloffl .. taportnt did,. hpl'd that report'

tatsyr. It •• D't ftr, atpifScaat fr_ ., polat of Yi_ .... fra. the a~

potDt of ., ..... 1 ....... tpaut., aad capaJ.l1ttle.. then' ... re., .ttaR-

tl_ .. dr_ to aDd I d1da f t ... tbat tile report eIIa ... d thi .... _terta11y.

!latlolf, Do ,ou t.hl* tbat then •• aDJ poaal1t1e CCIImttCCIOD with what hap­

,...d at ieykjarikl Did It lead to a.,kJaY1k. aDd foe tel' •• pirit of "tat.' Jt!alt&er: Dult.a the attitude at laykJaY11r., .. a the _ .. r .... t .. _de.

It .. all aan_ot to ltad, tbe probl_. bot tbere _I'e DO ..... Dta nac .....

I had DO objKtloo to that. 1 dloft thl .... that .. could 108.- if .. kept 10

aiDd the dl.parte, of cOlmaatioHl force. 00 "til atd •• ; that 11 aa, "Jalt­

_ta _re pi .. to ...... , the, had to be nat_ted becaUM 'ou couldll't

•• , it woul.d dr •• ao _a, .19111_. oa tb. part of the 80ueca ... the ....

..... 1' of diUalOBl OIl our part.

!!tloff: Yare JDU actuall, .t "'1r.~11r.'

ta.ltArl 110, I d1da't 80. AI f.r •• I bow, then .. re 110 .. jor 1I111tal'1

people there.

!!Itlolf s the ca.aUoa .Il .. arhea1ll t'be 111_ of ._ &eholara whether tbe

Bar.el report vaa oa the road toward the apirit of deteate which co •• 1. a

!ltU. later.

~tt .. r: I •••• It could b •• D C:GDltftled. It •• 8Di. iD that dlncti01l.

Top political polic, •• be1 .. _de.

HatloEfr OIl the , .. atioD of the alliecl '1'0.,1_ that aroa. durt ... ,our period

•• MClUI.. "1'. there any prob1_. over ro1 •• aDd .aaloa. of the dillerut

23

'.,,'.

:\.

· .

tile 11 .. '

DECLASSIFIED IN PART Authority: EO 13526 Chief, Records & Daclass DiY, WHS Data: JUl 1 7 20ll

JS ) .. )(b}( 0 ) lota of pobl ••• aMut all1 .. pullt .. tbelr .. iaht. PH

All 1 could do .a to potat out to ... of the polittcal

authod.U •• --aa4 _ .eel to .... thoR ... elBaa .t lea.t Glee • ,ear-to lMicate

vbat _ tbauaht. COaD", .houlAl .. wtl.ltna to ca.ait. v. _n uauall, 011 the

ltat1off. Vue then ., laportut cba .... :Ill zel ..... maa10u _ die ;aaUoaal

leYel ari .. clle periocl of ,our t •• urr-•• , dum ... t ..... t the fwacUo •• of

Particular coatrtea 111 th. a1Uace abould .,

~y.r' y ...... bad prolal •• that .. _1' •• iac •• t..... I tbtak that 1M di •

.... .... ... .. t ... pr.ttr pod aan __ ca. perttculal'1, OD aU.ircraft

Mat10!f. Bow about the buda.tt D1cI ,. ,.t ..... 111 _ the ~o.l_ of _tti ..

tlla ....... ta!

l.etlid.y.r& .0, ... di •• 't pt Dto .. ttoul ... aU at all. Tba _tio .. 1 CIOlltrl­

laut10u _r ... de D8 the part of i.dtvl.ual uclo •••

Matloffl D1cI tIM Seerecar, of Del .... aet Ia .. tha ... ctoa of "viai .. _

ro1 •• aDd lIlaaloaa .Dd forca .tzuctun, 18 .iacuel1oaa witb ,ou' 011 what role

diffel' .. t COU1Itd.a could pla" po.dld,! Call ,011 ncall vlutther _, of tho ••

,u •• Cioll. ca.e up?

Le.tta.r. .ot particularl, b,Wlvidual_tlou. But _11 ... 'n talk1118

about the 8Ubject'h.re, va "1'. al .. ,. uader pre •• ur. to .0 certai. thi ..... with

24

, . ~"" .' .... '._~~.:........;._ ........... , -.:..~~ .. -;::

. DECLASSIFIED IN PART Authority: EO 13526 Chief, Records & Declass DiY, WHS

Date: JUL 1 7 2013

.. . .. aU_ of wlIat _ti .. Ut, .... hen ... t"~ ..... tid .... coutaat 1'1'0'" 1_. Fol' ... pl.. I "_"I' 10 _11 tile ..... t ",,11" to 1tna11_ ., .UI'

JS3.3(b)C' ) .1t' •• c.aa'na;_n tbaa

OUI' .eldor dllcer. 111 .... , the, write.- It Ja.1 .., ... ',. ... d tbat I bad .... 111

the SBAPI office 011 ODe of ., nllt8 _II Pr •• td •• t Ii •• bower •• eM SACIUR.

25

Page detennined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief, ROD, WHS lAW EO 13526, Section 3.5

{Jate: JUL 1 ? 2013

aad tile ... ttal. bad .. P....... I'be IdUah J11lII.cer of Dafna .tar~ ___ - . I. Gen. a ....... r oat for DOt bau .. ..,.. who wlte •• letter, 01" baa a

atatDaDt to ._. o.WId_ a'PI'nal of tile .upr_ e...ad.r. c. .. ral It .. abover

.. 14, -mat'. _t tIae ., data ....... rter. _n •• OIl. uti_I probl __

do .. t tab tM na ..... lhtU.~ •• ~e._ that JOG an .ppolatt_ Mlf-rel.S •• t

officer. ... that the, call .. d ....... upoa to baIulle ta.elve. cornetl" ad

"Uoff: 1 .... 1' If t caa dihct ,our attead .. to the pro1tlea of the threat

that lAm facet 4udlll the ,... tllat JOtI _1'. SACBDL Did 1011 • ___ ter .87

dlff ....... III the perceptiOIl of the threat _twa tile Uat tad Sta ... OIl the OM

.... , a" the alU •• on the other' Did all .ide. -look .t the Son.t threat la

die ._ ."

IftaitHrl I can't r_Mr a., .paciftc dlff.r.DCU, esc.pt 'Il al1lOr de tat I. ,

1Iec ••• _ wn wont ... OD tbe ,robl_ ••• 11'011, of peopl., on a pollUcal

1 ... 1 aad a aJUtal'J 1 ... 1. I clOD't reca11 allJ .. rton dlff.r.... •• to

.... t tile tllnat .a. Jlatloffl III tenu, po .. l.1,. of the Genaaa, who "1'. very .. cia CODe.ned with

dldr frout, eo doe. to the hord.r. of the Jutena Iloe, peru,. 1001d.iIa at the

pro.l .. in a IIOra parochial way; vber ... the Ualted Statea .a faci. the alobal

tlaraac, aad han .. tha napoaalbiU ty for the Ducl .. r •• tarrant, looki1l8 at tha

threat ill a ...... t .roa4er .,. D1.,_ aDCOUDter .. ,. of that, for ....,1.' LaD.f.t •• rl I aacouatared- that particular t,pe of probl_ III CODIIeCUOIl with

the .... r.1 .pproach of RAm. It va.: _ '.faad .. far forvard •• po •• ib1 ••

That ft. the atat.-nt that lot a hell of • lot of d1acu •• 1oll. 'l'he Gena ••

26

. . ~ ..... ~ •.. ,.: •. ,. ... : . .: ...•.. .r .. .;:.:._.\':- ... " ..• _~ .... _._~ .. ~~. :.' .. '..:' .~.:"

Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief. ROO. WHS lAW EO 13526. Section 3.5

DateJUll 1 2013

_1'. "I', t .. lataat that ,. ~, to .ar our pla., 10 that ,. could conduct

an eff.ctl •••• f ..... , far for.ard •• ,a..1'1.. Aa far •• tbe U.tted

State. or eaa.a w .. aacel'll", that dtd.', uk. a .. 11 of a lat of dUfer-

.~ •• xc.pt wherl their 'forc •• we ... 1 •• 01yecl. But .. I1w,a bad dllcua­

alou, _thel' tt .. 1JL 'furu" 01' ill .rthen 1ol'R7, to dar.ad .. far

forward al potalMI. IdOD't tb1Dk Joa could aqua a.at 1&1 bow far va •

• a far forvard _ ,o.II1.,le, lut ,"In riabt about the fact that the

c:. ...... _I'I .at ".p17 inYOlYad t. tbb panicular a.peet.

ltatloffl ller.'. a 1004 point tD ata. que.ctoa. about the ar .. probl ...

vttlda JIATO a .. vbar. the .. jor luropeaa partnlra fttted iD. Bow did 7011

... the 1'01., for ."ple, of lritai.' Bov did JOU vi •• Ita politi .. 1a &be

alltaaca' Va. Ita .ffort to -.old OIl to ita OVD lad.pead .. t deterreat real­

t.ttc' Wb7'" 1e 10 JD.be •• t GIl 1ID1dl .. GIl to the at_ic boab ... Io,..t'l

~lt •• ra It ••• ' t oal, vtth Irlta1a; it ... with 'raac., too. The 'rench

_, ..... he .atd, -Gaul'al, I '011 1 t be11 ••• that a UUOD can It. a fir.'

elM. ution 111 the lMNI.rD world vltbout ha.1q the atOitie _b.· 'fa-t',

vb,. be .. ra1.~ lD 101 .. abead with the aw:lear ODe. Th1. brl .... hack

to ... of yoar _rU.r que.tin.. We had a row 1. the JUDt Chi.f. of

Staff vbaD I •• ChatIlNIa. It .tartecl before ., tiae, vitti Ceneral twiDiDa"

1'ba .loiat Chi.f. of Staff ~ atroaa11 to tile IJD1tad Stat •• 1O".l'D­

_11t that we .houl. prov1d ... ai.taace i. tbe clevalopllUt of INclear pover

to J'raDC.. Va pointed out npaatedl,. to the _thoriti .. "'1'. 111 V .. hiD8ton

wbaa 1 •• Chief of Staff of the Ant,. au Chalman, aDd eo oa, that 'raDc.

27

.. ~ '.-•. ::.·I·J: . ..; • ..:t.;;"l_~-";''..':'',,~; .. ___ .'.

DECLASSIFIED IN PART Authority: EO 13526 Chief, Records & Declass DiY, WHS Date: JUl 1 1 20ll

........ i .... t of it. atllcu, "'pt .. 1' .... "" _ i .......... it_ tllat

_ bev that t1ae ant.l •• 1nacl7 "d ..... that if _ would .... to tbaIa .... of

w. 1tacNhw. tbeJ could Mite • ..ua1t1 •• 1.1'''1' c __ of tMir •• f ......... t

for tt. CODftattoaa1 fo ..... We _ned _ tbat. ript up to tbe tt_ ..... 1

•• a..tnaa .... 1M jut coul.'t .. t ov .uthorld .. beh to "I'M to tut.

"poff. You wad. haft aapporc" PYiDl tM PnIIcIa tbe __ fit of t ... rica

Duc1.ar re.earch!

..... tnrl 'lllat'. cornet. Va kDev tut the mach wn -.oniDl 0. certll18

f .. tuna of the auc:1 .. r prola1_. t. maclMr POWI' a ••• po1I~. that _ Dew

tbat tile &o.teta .1readJ bad. . Va pnf."" to at.. tile Preach our taO.bov 1a

tbat naal'., OD tIM .... 1. that tbe7 would . put tlte .ffort that .e .aw. la

auclUI' n ... rcb ..... 0 OD tato coawat1oaal forc •••

"Uoffl An _ .,.aId ... Mat auel_r .eternat. tha euatealc detel'rat. or

.. cloff I !be dId.i.tract .. tU1'U41 thl ..... !

Lfwpltael'l Y... '1'b1. hid •• _ of ..-thtDa .1 .. dlat fibl lato tid.. I ...

to 10 to the lAm •• tl ••• a. talk to the .tl1tal'J "pr •••• tau" ••

• ectd •• that .. ba. to do batter fD larf.lq lD oar .111 •• OD INCI •• r _tt.r ••

28

; ";;-'" -:::--' ---:--, ... - .... ......!.. ..... ~ ...• ', ..... ~. ,.- -.-•• _1. • ........ . •. _.~_._ .• :.':"'. __ ... ~_~_ ~ • ..!. ..... :::. _~ •• _.0 ..

Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chle', ROO. WHS lAW EO 13128. SeGtlon U [)at.t

JUL 1 7 2013

._-..... -"--.'.~ .. --. -. ---.....

It'. _ Ualt with up at tM Def ... pta_.l ... 1. I .. t the Jol1lt CIll.f. to

wrk OD a project of ....... 1'1111 a two-houl' •• Iou boar. aDd •• 1 ..... 1' 'd.fl ...

Va _r"d for OftI' • , •• 1' OD It. to produc. IMICI .. r 1afONaU01l for our .111 ••

at tINa top·l .... l 01' dan to 1-.1' 1 • .,.1 .. taU. It took • ,..1' to .. t cllat

cl .. red for pr8U1ltatiOll to .a,o .. I •• 10 tIbo .... d it.

llaUoff I !lal. 1. I. the -'rlc::a. clftl • .r te.1uerl ~h tha .-aria. ".IICJ that cODtnl. the 1'.1 .... of cla.l1fle.

lafor.atloa. Va wrked for OftI' • ~eer oa that. aDd .. 1111&11, lot .pproval.

'l'bn _ took aD .1rp1aae &ad put • crew .board with 'rle"l11 t..-...... ,

Cra.,.led arOUlMl. Ve did a lot of b1'lel1l11 .Dd .. Hob the lock oa auclear _ter­

lal. but It .... tt _til auch later; It 1'''''' _. later ora 1Ir. lIe .... r •••

thi. aDd naUaed tut ,.. _r .. tt dol88 .... h. Be caM OftI' co SIIAPI on d."

aad he c_ With all Idea that we .. re 101na to fora. aucl .. r cc.dttee at the

political leftl.. 1 •• ked, -What .n 1011 101111 to call 1"- ... aplat ... tbat

of the 15 utloa. t. Ml'O, w'd ba.,. tbe f1ge prlDC1,.l ut10u &ad the. w'.

rotate the -.1ler .. ttOll. thl'ouah tt. .. .. td, -Ve'r. 101 .. to call it the

Salect o-Itte •• • I n.poJMIed, -eau. I tbtak that'. a 10\laJ u.. for tt.-

1Ia .•• klad of .baba .... he .a1d. ·What'. Wl'0IlI with the laDe 'Select eo.atttee"·

I rep11t14. • Look , ,o,,'re talkl. to aD oraaalaatl_ of is aatloa •• It'. 101na

to be ••• , to a.lect fi ... utio .. Oil the co.dtte •• bat ttts 101111 to 1te ct ....

har4 to •• lect teD of t .... off.- So. be ... it •• ad be w.t back to the U.S. The

uext U_ I __ hia, 1 Aid, ·W.· ... lOt a .... for ,our c...ttt ••• • 'I'he, wre

.tUI worUaa OIl tbh tbi •• alUl he a.ked, '"What Ie It'- I ald. -The JIc .... r.

eo..ttt ••• • Be .. at .trallht up throuah the owrbea ..... elld DOt 11k. it. ..t that co.a1ttee ba. de.,.loped lato the .el.ar Plaa. Croup and 1. I. eff.ct tocla,.

29

"

.• ~ .'.... • ..... ,,,f.-.._,. .... .. "- ........ __ .~._ .. _.;.'J. • .. !J ... _ .J

Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief. ROD, WHS lAW EO 13526. Section 3.5

Date: JUl 1 1 2013

-- ,

llaUoff. You., recall 801M of the vritl.s of Alastalr luellaa. ,I doo't bow Sf 'OU .... 1' Mt up wlth hill. • va •• Idtbll writ.r, ".1', _ell 1.y01 .... lD . the fowull. of th. Iater_tiona1 Strat.aie Studie. Iutitue. 1D LODdoD. lie

wrote that the IdU.1l bo.b •• a1ae4 at Wa.hlaatoa, and that the I'reaeh bo_

... atlled at .th WUh1D1toD ad Load01l, tn order to _. _ iapact GIl the

Vat ted 8 tate.. Would ,OU 10 810111 vi tla the tt

te.a1tHrl Ito •

. t.tae. •• l .... chat thelr ".lc. would be heard by tbe .erlcaa poftr. But ,ou

WOUldD't follow thet IIOti01lt

.t10ff. OIl the .reach aide, how did ,OIl react ... ,OU ... that the 'reach

"1' • .,,1. to ou.t tbe headquarter. anel the alUed baa •• ?

Leather. We didn't .... aJ1, wnai. abwt it. We didD't detect that the,

"1' • .,,1. towrd that. 10 ODe did In the area wh.n I ... located, aDd 1 ..

ill Pari ••

Matloff. It c:aae .. a 8Urprl •• ?

L!!!it •• rl c:c.plete IUrprla.. That'. the 0Dl., ., I ca1l .pr ••• it. 1'bere

•• 110 tnd1catiOD. whatao .. er, thatcaae to UI at SlAPE. There we vere at

'uta, In the pol1Ucal are •• anel there va. IIDthlaa 1a the c:oallUDlcaUoDl

that 1.plle. t.hat De Gaulle va. 1 .. 11181 this _,. UDtil at the end of "ebNUY.

1 thiDk it vaa, .ell ....... the aJ1l1Ouaceaellt. B1II&0.

Matloffl Bow voulel ,ou KCOunt for tha,t poaiUODt YOIl ba •• alraad, off.T'H a

fe. rea.ou. lIatlouU ..... doubt.ell,. ADJth1l11 to do with hi. Moacw.r fl".

Vorld Val' II",.? ' •• 11.,.8 about the coal1tioa'

30

........... - ' ........ - .... - ... -....... ....t-.. ..... _ ..... ___ • ....... ' .. .' ... ": .... _ . ..:-...1 __ ... --•. _, __ ..... ' ....... _ .. : .... ' ........ , ......... _ ..... .

, . Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief. ROO. WHS lAW eo 13526. Section 3.5

£Jate: JUL 1 ? 2013

\!FJ5!!1'1 1'010 _ct to 'loa Gate., .... he •• leeftltal'J of "f_._. I he •

• u ...... wttll loa Cate. the 'l&to .eti .. lD Pari. ia DH .... I' 1HO, ... _ ....

to C.plaiD bittel'l, that Gea. De Caulle •• DeftI' bePPJ wttll the •• "a-.t. that the mac. officer. bad ta tbe "'1'0 .truct... • lOt iDto • _II of .Il el'",Dt. at ea1, wttla o.a. De Gau11_1 __ 't 1..,.1 ... too ..cia OIl tbat 0.-

ht wt th tile adef of It.ff of the macla force.. ... odatll'.. !hat ... cam ••

fl'. Ca •• De Gaulle. t .lw,. tried to ... i.t 1'DII Cattl. til ..... 1' ... lata, .u 117 .... 1' to tid. particular plaiat ... thi •• Who i. the ec..DCleI' ill adef of

tile Alli .. Porce. c..ad Buro,., A Pr....... What fol'ca. vill he haft ._1' c ...... , Caaa41aIl. Britt.h. _ricall, Genall, DaIlillt-the lal' ... t c:oac_tr.ttoa.

the anateat field c __ 1UI ... I .... llt ta tM .IU.DCe-of cov.a, IlOt SAQUa.

IMat ... woutcl ... ia c __ Dd of aiUtal'J' oper.tioa. ia catra! Buro.... 'l'Mra

w_'t .11, ... n iaportallt c ....... po.lUoa. lat it Uftr .. tbflec1 c:all. De

f:au11a.

"tloff: Va. thera •• ,tlat. apacifiea11y that bact ocean ... clo JOII thtak. that

.de hta take the Pr •• ch oat of tlul lI111tal', part of tbe .lluaee'

t...ita.l': It va. the idea that the So'f1at lfDiOD •• DOt .01aa to aake .a, trouble for .D1bod,.

Matloffl A diffarant pal'captl0. of the thre.t? 'athepe. chanaa fn ~ha pal'captloa'

~taal': !bat'. corract. And Ofta poiat 1 foraot bafor.. .01 of ., coll •• .,.. ••

cinl1 ••• ad ulltal'J. faIt that Cea. De Call1J. thouaht that he could be the

boDe.t hrobr betwea ••• t alUl .at aDd be la.truM1LUl In _lll1iq the tIIo of

tb. toptber, without the DIad for ••• llf.eea. AI •• a.ue1 to that, I knaw

CeD. De Caull.' •• lda, when h. wat to hi. l'etil'eMnt ho. III the ... t of

31

. . Page determined to be Uncfassified Reviewed Chief. ROD. WHS lAW EO 13526. Section 3.5 Oat.:

JUl11 2013

~ .... "~ ... ".~ ........ " '_ ..

hac., ...... eol' _ tut Gea. De Caull. f.lt tlaet., __ he pallett eM

forc •• out, aDd tbat hi. 91 ... 1a tM. rea.d wra coapletely Itl_ .part .....

tile _ •• 1 ..... t 'ato CaecbHlonUa ift 1961. Cea. Ie Caull_ •• t 'OWD -r, r.pldly, _tall, a' phJaical1" .fter that. that w. 1. Aupat 1961.

llatlofft • f.aci_U ••• "ltl_ to that .tory. .. acb of • I •••• the

hacIa .... rbn fna the _liar, part of tile &lUau.'

'-it •• ra fta, ...... of tbe ke, po.itt •• t. tlle .taff .Dd .,. lid two

41 .. 1.101U1 ..... on tb. Ia ... rl •• frollt. OR tile daht flaat, 1. the ceDt.r.

ltatloff. VUe about the 10a!atlce of the aUl.rac:a'

t..Id t._r. 'I... Va had .peat ""1' • !dIll •• ollar. 1. utabU.1d.q OU' 11_

of c_a'.tlou .er ... Prance, ... we wre IOIIlI to ..... to Ii" ~ up.

'!bar. _. 'DO .. ita.l., no e . .,a ... b1. 11_ of CD iDlc:tlcnaa ..... 1 .. 1. after that.

HaUoff. We ...... talked about Brltal., hac ••• ad Ceftlall1. Tau •• tl ... tile

Ger.a. • •• lre for •• f.... .• f.r forward .. ,..albl_. IDv .1d JOU re.ct tOMard

the Genall 110ft toward Oatpolttilt. tavar. IMaUdt .. 1»ri .... with .. at Burope! I

.toe't kaow If that ...... whila JOu _re .tl11 SACBn. but c_rtat.I, by 1970

ViiI, kUclt va. talkiaa about build 1 .. brld ....... 1 • .c:Uut1D1 • polic, of

t..a1ta.r: '1'bere ••• DO l1ldleatioD of that iD •• u1NItaDtia1 ., up uatU I

left iD '69.

Hatlofft Ifo f •• r that the Genau atlht .. 101na lD both dll'ectiou!

t..Dica.r: 110.

Matloffa Darl ... 70ft teDura. d1d you ••••• y chana •• 11l the oria1al blpor­

taac. of the centr.1 frout 111 RATO. vt.-.-.ta the DOrther1l .... tile aouthern

32

; . · ' ...... .

Page detennined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief, ROD, WHS lAW EO 13526, Section 3~5

tJate: JUl 1 '1 znu fla"" !he areat dar .. t that va feare' at the _,laIdDl of the alUaace

•• tile ceDtral froat, that the a.au .... i,lat ..... dut it. Aa till. weDt

OIl. opio..a1,. CIa. threat _ca. 110ft dlwl'aified. J)1d),ou MW a f •• U,1II tut

p.rbapa tb. threat ... .lalftlDI to the DOTtb aDd to tbe aou~t

Leadt •• r. ., I ""'1' had ., U1.1ou 1D that dlrect!. vbaboa". .. , ....

eben ..... ·t AD, Me .. dt)' or pr ••• ur. to ha •• thla klDcl of aD atUtude. tiler.

... IIOt 101. to be _ .. jor tr .... f.r of troop. fl'. the center to the II01Itlutn

fnat, 01' to the aorthen froat.

Hatloffl Bow .boGt CGIItna fro. the au.tau atde, perba,. tr)'iDi to GUtflank tba

alUaaut

r.-itaerl 'filar. v •• a't _, ., to outflauk it, either fr_ tha IIDrth, 01' fl'.

aouthan 11Il'Gpe.

MaUoff. !be .... ach .. re writl118, •• I recall It, dlat the thr .. t _d ablft";

that the c:....uht ... ra 101a& to tr), to outflank t1ae allhaea throuab Africa;

... that RAt'O would f.ce Ita areate.t threat fna the .wth. 'J'b1.... rillat aD

the .. ata of tlla Al.&er1au "I' period.

l.aIID1uerl Rot ODe of De Il'eat thre.t ... '01JD Chrouah A_ul. Md iDto ltal,.

but that va. atUI the ceDtr.l froDt.

MaUoff. 1a leC.Dt ,ura, tMr.'. be ... .ucla coacera .bout the KUdle But, the

Pel'llaD Culf •• Dd the 011 probl_. aad the poadble outflaulna without .. ell a

direct .Uital')' iDY.aloa.

t.1mU.al' I I'. atill _ ardent _vocate of tr11. to do _thilll fol' th. 'fur". to preveut tbe Sovieta fro. att.ekilll aDd iaolatlna Turkey aDd •• ttius the ... tera

Jla41t.rl'a .... D. lliddle Eaat. ad ao forth. 'l'hat t ..... t 1 thiu 18 • coltaiderable

33

:......; ...... ~._.:.r_ .. __ . . .•. 7'.

.. Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief, ROD. WHS lAW EO 13526. Section 3.5

[Jate: JUL 1 7 lOU

!!!tloffl 1' .. 11M toueIaH "fon .. the CHc .... l ... la. el'tl1. ta 1961. low

did IIAII ~t to tbat crtala'

LIImlta.t It I'ucted ."I'pl.,. • u..'ateJ., put tato .ff.ct all our ·coati ...

18K)' plu •• In .ecret-aotllSaa oa the aufac ......... tbe, _r.a't Dadi ..

ua. • pat all oar al.l't .a ...... lato effect la the c .. ter alld our r.coll-

.. i ... uc ... lat ... il1.d. But I lot 80 i .. tnetl .... ao poUtical autela •••

.. t1olf. Rot fl'. the CouactU

.....st .... r IIotll'al •

.. t1off. IIotbtDl fl'. tha A.dca pre.1cIntf

J.ealc..1' I 110. 'l'b1. i •• rul aor. poiat 1dth.. I took palil. to tell GeMr.l

.... 1'8 ... t· Wa .... a the bUah i .... u. up. .,. had pat iato .ffect everr

tbS .. dlat _ could do dlitarU,. We nell cbaD&e4 an .. rcb. of a couple of

Canaa eli:"i.I ... , to .... tba a_y fl'. the frODt, 1.at .. 11 .. the lGnetl

the neue dtat duty .... ia to protect C.cbo.loftltla. So, I ca11.d up .,

pbne • a __ r of tu... 1a. the flrat place I called back here. to talk to

CeD. Coodpaatel'. !bta.a Avpec 21. 1968. I .... the queaUon ...... t doe.

tM Ua.lted State. pro,. •• to do about thh ...-at ,ato eaechoalcmaktaf- Gall.

c:oo.t,..ter .all't thel'.. 110 ODe el .. baw 8.ythlDl abOlit It. It.a all Uad

of low-kay accepUDI what the au •• lana va" 401.... ADd I thouaht. My God, vbat

aft the Cldeta dol1l8! The Chief. vare DOt dol. anyt1a1... Two day. wat by, a.

t •• lettina critical c __ ata fra. ., ,nior lIl11tary peop1 ••• uch .. , "'What

an _ .uppo .. d to 40t- 1 .aI4, -I'. tl'JiDl to aet pollt1~.1 lulunce. laft

you lot all your a1.rt .... ure •• ad .var,tbll11 1_'- ""Y... Got th .. 811.- 00

the third day. thi. 11 in Aupat. I aat cIova. a.el Vl'ot •• note to 11'0110 [Secretary

34

... ... . .

... "f: ,.: '.', .

Page detennined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief, ROD, WHS lAW EO 13526, Section 3.5 [)atl~ JUL 1 1 lOU

c._r.l of Ul'O). pol1lU" out that It •• 101 .. 08 12 hou'I'. DOW, that die

"lat Vain •• 80ft .. 18 IUI4I takl. oftr Caec1ao.lowkS.. ... J bad DOt ...

• ., political aut-•• , .Dd I .aad ._ quickly, becauM then .n -DY thl ...

tbat _ coald do. Jut ko.l0 •• la ltalJ. 111.. "pat, .1 the OIllJ .. ar01aCl;

theft .... It • alDt.tar la a,pt. III Auauat .... r,o- •• OD I~r 1.... J aabd.

-"t tile belli. the pre.ldeat thlD.1t11l1 .bout'- ADd JOU bow Nt ...... r J

aot out of ,roMbl,tht. offlc. or the Cbalru1l'. office! -We'or. 101 .. to ata ...

la, .IUI ....... t our BGropua .111 •• deetde to do.- ADcI I .. de the .tat ... t to .

., Cht.f of Staff aad • coapl. of peopl. la 11IAPI. ""DIat'. a hell of • ft_ aht-

hltiOD of l .. derahip OIl the ,.rt of the UUt •• Stata. aDd 1A1'O. '!bat'a tile

wont lift .... alaee I'ft Mea oftr ura.-

!latloff: Do 70U f .. 1 free to .pe.k oa thl au'jut of .... t ,OU •• e •• am·. "role ta .uch clrc.atance.' Wbat RA1'O en do .... JOG pt • thr .. t outalde

of lte .. oaraplile ar.a'

tea.tt •• r: We ,0 OIl .lert for ... rlou. cODtl .... ac7 pl.a.. Ve' .. lot ecmUa­

,aae, puu for al .. t nerJth1q. lut what eo. of ., .euor offic.r., GeJ:UU

&ad othera, .. n tII1Dk1na .. a to .oft a dlnltoa up to tbe boreler .... l.t tile

Son.ta blow that tbe,'re DOt 10iDi to eo. .a, further. '1'ha IdUc.1'7 wated

to kaov If tber ... Iu't ... thl .. the, could do to offl.t thh debacle.

IleYoff: So 'o~ f.lt that both froa the al11" .ide. throUSh the CoacU, a.

froa the A.ertcaa pre.ideatial dele, thara va. ao adequate political aulunee'

teal t&.r: 110... Whea the 'l'urta _re 101... to 1...... Cyprua. I w. a .. _Dld ODe

.,l'1dDl. vlth IIr. Hc ..... r. aad the he.tcleat 01\ ODe phoae, aDd they DO aoemer lot

off than I lot Bro.to oa the other. ~,ell told .. : -You sat the hell down there

35

t,

. . . ;" .~ .... '"., "~.'::',_ ... _ .. _ ... ' ... "'_... . i,· ,

Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief, ROD, WHS lAW EO 13121, aectlon US

uatel JUl 1 ? Z013

" ! ........ ,. _ .. : ...... , :-....... -.;,,_:, ...

to ~J, to lataabul, aGel .. t witla tbe _ncaa _ .. adOI' .... with eM hiM

lUateter a" polat out .. t • cr .... , tlda wauU ....... eo foetlh· I ..

no occaai_ Itke tlaat, ........ atopped tile furktab lmraeloa of CJprua. la

other _rd., _ the C.ecll crtaia ... ryODa took it IOrt of aoacbalaatlJ "1' • •• "ald_toa. whtchll1furl.ted _. You bow are .. ,ot the "at tllfonatioa'

Fr_ 1btr1., leapt. Black, who bael ".11 all ........ 01' la Africa. ... .. ". ..

to Ita la Pr .... at the tiM of the tabOftr ... W dev.loped • __ fient

ability to r rter tbt_. 1fe ,ot Shirla, 'rapta to atop .,. IBAPB. AIIcl abe

18ft _ t __ .t IDfoEMtioa .. bad of bow t_ Sonata did lt, how thaJ

baa4led tINi:l.r taaka. ..eI eo oa.

')laUoffr Oa tile tapact of the 'tat ... WI' OD Mm. particularl, OR UldCe4

8tate. relatJou with ita all:l..a-dld that _I' _te JOUr poaiUoa _ra dl111-

cult.! If ao, la what va,'

Ir!!D1tHl'1 Y... It did. but I uaclar.toocl it. I juc hael to tall .,. peopla

tbat _1'8 coaplaill1. that tltla •• the a,. it .a. We "I'. at _I' :l.a vt.~,

aac1 •• Chainen I bad b.a tllroua" the beat1lll1na 01 it. !he Ceraaa cOllplal_

chat tie WKe .willi a lot of '-be aDd ao forth out of Cenaay, which .. wra,

beea ...... ven I'Uludaa out of boab. 111 'i.tau. I bael to t.ll the Malater. of

Defell •• aad l"1abt up to the Pd. Hintatara, -Look. thh 18 Aarlcaa .qul .... t;

tbe ,-rica ••• re at war in Vi.tua; and the,'re nmdll8 out of thl. kind of equip­

_at •• 0 .1ft 101 .. to take it aDd aova it OftI' ther. to V1etDaa." !'twa I bad

the .... klad of coaplatat. frae ~rlcaa forc.a aDd peraODDal aad fro. our ocher

36

· .

&111 •••

Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief. ROO, WHS lAW EO 13526, Section 3.5

Oate: JUl 1 '1 lOU

but the Ualt •• State. 1. at v.r in tile "1' "It, aM .' •• ,ot to .. t our Mat

people ower thare aDd .. t tile uterial ower there to WiD tha war.· Hatloffa Were ~1I eyer •• keel to .... t a raqueat for 41rec:t belp for tbe Uuted

Statea to the alUe., au D,1'O, for ... lltlnCl la Y1etuaf

L!!DitHrl 10.

ltatloff I Tbi. 18 _ 11 .. _:l.c:Il baa e.. up t1ae aac1 ... :l.n iD the hi.torJ of tba

allt.ae.. Do JO. r .... ber "II the 'reRCh wre la the Al,eran war' '!'beJ .ated.

help fr_ MTO _d theJ f.lt that that "I • pro1»l_ for tim.

t..a1caerl Y... '!'be quelUoa baa c .. up • INIIber of tt_. elM :I.. rea.rd to the

rapid cleplo~t fore.. Stao.leIa· t th. arltb1a t or the C .... a. or the Freach _ad

.a.a people dovn tbar.,

Hattoff I 1 ..... that did DDt COM up cJurlaa ,our pertod.

LeaD1~rl Ro.

llatloffl I'll _k a f •• ,e .. ra1 qualtlou, if I "J. OR JOUr' perl,.c:t1wI Ga

RATO oraaai .. tloa aad. '.act:l.ou. AI. re,"1t of your apertellCe, bow do you Me

the AlavleaD nl. ia RAm aacJ it. nlationl with Europe! Did ,au •• the Mericaa

c-'tMDt ..... maunt 0_' Leaa1taerz Bo, 1 ""'1' eeceptecJ the 'word pemanant, beeaun 1 hoped that ODe de,

thare would be • r.pprocbeaeat of on. kiDd or another with tlul So.,let Unioa aDd tbat

tbe .. qlOD vou~ 10 do.... allt"l1 the, ilolateel BerUn, aDel thara ... an eetual

lroa curtalll, I jut el101 t ... it in ay tt_. Matloff: Do 70U recall, po.abl,. ill Jour ori&1ae1 _tinti •• 11l co .... c:t1oa .ith

tbe BATO treat7, whetbar JOu bu the "'apr .. I1011 at that tDe tbet the "erie.a

37

. '~""" .-L..... .... ... . ... ~_ . :, .. ~:.j .. ,. ... :.: .... _ .•.•. :---J.._~.... • ........ to ............... ~ ........... ;. •

. . Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief, ROD, WHS lAW EO 13526, Section 3.5

[Jate: JUL 1 7 2013

aDo, c-.1taat ... _ ..... nwaeuU Do 1011 hcall ... "'OD te.U_a,

..... be va. cUt_ before the .... t. Cc.a1tta.a'

Lea1t •• r: Iro, 1 .ver coaaiderM it .. nanent, 110.

!IItloffa Be.a •• tH the qu •• tioa dir.ctl" -~. tlll •• penaant c..altllent'­

ADd ... aU polDt 1a1aak, -10.·

LIIp1ca,ra T •• , but later GIl Pre.tdeDt 11.eftbover thou.ht .. ,be that it .. n· t

p.~ftaDt .tth.r.

llat1off. wt.r em A.UD v.ffled.

1.aft1ta.n 1 Udn't kDov that.

Mat1off. WIlen you read hi • ...,In, 'be ta1tea a ........ t _1" _1..,.. •• 1ev.

Ie It JOur f.ell .. tbat .. deall forc •• caD or .bould be reduca'

!.eth.r: 10, a'aolut,lJ DOt. I ... part of ., jud ..... t GIl thlal .. haw a

forc. of ....... 1:»1. all. ill luo,.. • forca that baa carri.d out a alaaloD of

deterftDC.. Our al11,. ara build!. up. Of cour .. , .. haft _ttar foftea

chen, far better, tbaa the ODe. 1 bad wben 1 •• tun. I bad oalJ fl ••

__ lcaD dlrialou; th. Britlah CIIllJ • couple, aad the Caruaa 0D1, a cauple.

t'ht ... ar. 'ifferat DOW. 10 1 juet f •• 1 that 1f JOU tab out a "NtaDtW

IlUllber of '-'l'lcall', tbe id •• 1a 101'Q1 to CO throu.h ."1" laropu •• lad that

tbe U1dted States la an.r1 .. Ita conaect1oa. Ve' •• cel'ta1a1J ,ot the 1-are-

dint. or the AIIOuat of forc. th.r. v1a1cb ba. cIo •• che job for 3.5 ,.r.. '1'0

chana_ it lD All, "bat.DUal ." 1. 87 opln1cm, w111 put tbe ld •• ill a1De1.

tbet AMrlca .... loU it •. 1Dter: •• t in lurope, a.eI ,OU'l1 flDd the 1091et.

tul ....... t ... of nerythl •• 114 dot .. lU b.at to .. parat. wbat .'y. beea

try1q to do for 35 y ......

38

•

~ - ............ , ·~·t:.-_ ..... _.# .. _,.:...;.···;;':':'';I.t.~.t.l... ..... .;.:,;. .. ..:.1. .. ~:...._ :--4.~.~~ ..• ~ .. '." . __ ._ .. ~~_ ..... _ ... __ . __ ~';_ .. J ..... ___ ..... ;..: •.•

. . Page determined to be Unclanlflecl Reviewed Chief. ROO. WHS lAW EO 13526. Section 3.5

Oate: JUL 1 7. 20U

lII!lofl I lhat •• ,ou He •• "'10'. hiatt_hlp wlth atenal ,~ow.l_ a ..

ana.-that , •• atenal to it. aaoP'aphtc ana' ... peopl_ llaft ~opo'" OD

OCca.tOD to •• tead the IHlrapbtc ana of tM alll.ae.. Odtan haft 1~ fo~

otbar .,. of ..... Ii .. cri ••• that arlla out8idatbat ... arapla1c ana, fo~

~ •• tD • 1I1d.l1. But a" the Per.tu Gulf.

~ita.~1 I tldu .... r the JUre _'". .d. ODe ateaeioa la the 4tlaatic.

'!'bat'. the -lildt of tt, a. far •• I can .... Korth Africa •• al .. couiderecl

• poe.tbil!t,. !be idaa of .aDdia. a Ce~D UDit to r.1aforce our force. do..

1a Ina alhl thl ... 11b tbat ia ti_ of _I' baa c .. ape I_fatai. that ftttE7-

thl.. tbe Ca~. ca. produce _ llH. to "illloree our poet tin ia ceDtnl Buro,..

1'Iaen'. 1lO ., to .aDd a real_at dOlfll there fn. CenaD7. It WCMIlcl cre.te •

lot of co.plicab4i loatetical probl_. a .. I'd -.ell rather ... t ..... Ud up

their fore •• thera lia luropel .0 that .,be _ caD tab ..... force. out. Jut

DOt ftce ... r •••

.. t1offl I tab it Chat ,.. would ~t fawr utaDeliaa the aeoar.phie 1HMmcIade.

of eM all1auca!

l4!piuer: 110. I thi* that' a wh, '!\ana, 11 .0 illportaat. 'lUrka, , •• ,",ffar

OD the .outhea.cana froDt.

llatloffa nere has bee. a tre ... ill RA'1'O ••• J01I .. 11 kaow-for ...,la. the

report of -'l'be t'bre. Wi.a Ken- and the Rarllel report. to lacr .... alld I.prove

c:GMUltatiOD ... aa tbe POWI'. of the allie. whell political eri ... 01' 1I11ttary

c:d .... art .. oateide the aUI.Bee. Doe. that ••• the rlpt direction to 10:

to tlY to i.prove the eoaaultatlOll!

39

• ..

"1" "'!- "! .. n 'I·,', ... ; ::":.' .... _ •. _ .... _..1-:...-..:_._ .. _...;....,."t._. _~_ .. ____ ._-.._ ... !

Page dete""ined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief. ROO. WHS lAW EO 13526. Section 3.5

[Jete: JUL 1 1 1013

14a1tgrl I tllillk tut _ eartai ...... t of eoualtati_ ... _ coatinuaU,

.. ,..,. I can 1 .. I.a that ID tile ca.a of a _jor fu •• ID tIaa ana of Ira.,

for I_tau., a .aU ... 1&bt H culed, a .. there woald .. a cODaultatlo.,

IMat I thtDk • coa.i"nbl .... ree of co_alcatlOD I. cODtf.auoa.l, 101 ... OD.

llaUoff I Do ,.. .... D, poaatbl. chaap. I. tM .111aftCtl .tnctar. .... fUIICtloat

L!!DI taar I ., atrRture, do )'aU _. or .. ataatloD'

Hatloff I 'Ibe ora-at .. etoa.

r.-It •• r. ... I tMaIt il'. "aD trl", t •• tad, _din.d. OftI' the , •• 1'.. I

thiDk that tllera'.' DO ru •• vb, it .houlda't be coatl ... 1, 10Gbd at, at

SIIAPB, _iell 1. H1Da d ...

!lttloff. Aa)'tJal .. _1'. that call H ...... ta 'baadli ... tM D1IC1 .. r daterreat

probl .. , a. -'0'. r •• poeal'1. for Wbat'

t.a.lt .. rl Wo. 1 tbtu hare the ana",_DC. ar. prett)' claar cut. Vattad

State. forcee er. aD the coati .. Dt aad the Freach and lritiah haft thair oa

aucl_r forca •• which ar. fol' their IDt.mal d.f .....

!!tloffl 80 ~ .Oll't .... a, ••• to ella .... that aroaad!

t..a:lt •• r: ••

lfatloff I Bow .bout 8tytlll .or. re. po., 11»111 ~ for c01lftaUoul d.f.D.. to lura ....

,...1'. of the AlUe.ee, do 'au ••• that •• a ,o •• lbl11t"

~t.z.rl 'lIl., ay. tbe .. jor r •• po .. :lbllity DOW. Ther.' ...... 1'&1 for.ula

vb1ch :ladlcata. that If war broke CMlt lD caDtral Europe. 7'1 of the troop. vould

H Burope •• , .bout 801 of the 1I.9.lfo~ca. would b. &uro.,..a. ... .bout the --

chi.. for the .Atr ~ore •••

Jlatloff: 1Iov .hut the , ... UOD 0' 1d11tal')' tlltearatiOD WithiD ebe .U1aacel

40

· . Page determined to be Unclaulfled Reviewed Chief. ROD. WHS lAW EO 13526, Section 3.5

[Jalt: JUL 1 '1 29U

do ,. tid_ it aD 10 farthel" Should It 10 f.eMl" ... it ... a1MNS a.

it caD lOt

... tt •• ra 1 tblalr. i.tearated .eaff. ar. a. far a. JOU .lIould 10. "'e,'_ lot

ail' •• f ..... prett, .Re" out .. all latearal forc •• SBArE _I'Ud that out, a ••

tbeJ .... a force _ •• at I tblalr. .a far .. la" alta. taetica1 tadta, .ad .0 forth an coac:ened-Do .,.

1IIt101l1 VoII1d 7ft • ., tbat the .Iplficaaee of "10 to AMrlca. aatloaal .. cur­

ltJ ... c .... d t •• .,., f~ tb ••• at-.. of the 4111 ... ' ••• ea.U ...... tt

la it atUl ftl'J vital for Alled.call .ecurltJ 01' DOt'

Jets .. r: t •• , t tid_ H. t .. I.tal. I • ., .pe_ba. a.d .0 forth tbat the

".t plac. co .. fead tbe Ualtad State. b a1cma tbe Jtl'u .. t trOll Clarcal ••

Matlofll ., c ........ the., OWl' the 35 ,..a' t.laltaal'l t •• , DO ctwaae. Hatloff I wt _ aat you tbe Uad of q.ltion I did ..... I a •• 7011. towrd the

-I'J clo •• of the iatem .. OR the 1'01. aa Cbail'Ull of the Jol., Cldef. of Staff.

to e __ .t OR .a.e of the penoulttia.. 1'OU'ft toucW OR aOM of tbea, but

WOIIl. you .c-.t Oil tU at,l... peraoaalitt ••• aad .U.cti".. •• of aOM of

the official. witb whoa yo ••• alt 1. ,our rol& a. SACtUl. particularl, oa the

"-ericaa .i'" Do you _at to •• , .IIY .ore .bout 8ecl'aul'J IIcJIaul'a tbaD 70U '_

alnady .a1df

L!!p1uarr Hy vi.". l'eaardlll8 1Ir. 1fe .... r. haft ben re.,1aed couider.bl, becau.e

of hll .I'aeeut .tat_Dt that tbe DUCI.ar _poD h .. DO IdUtar}' u •• whatloever.

a. baa r.waled that be r.e_ade. to the 'r •• id .. , ... the Secretary of DefeD"

41

. " ........ --, .. -~- ... -

. ' . Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief. RO~. WHS lAW EO 13526. Section 3.5

fJate: JUL 1 ", 20U

. ' .. - .. ,-_ ... _ .

that tile, .1aotal. aftl" uttli •• a aucl .. r ._poIl. _iell •• a peat d' .. ,pout-

.at to M.

"tlo", Clan Clifforel.

I laM "l'J l1ttle to do v:l.tIllir. Cliffol'd. • dia't vi.it .. 09ft

then. .. .... a .boI't ca1lUft.

Jlatlofla I'll _Ilti ..... of eM d.putJ ,.cTecal'ie. of •• f.... 10 ... 11

CUpati'ic _ the f1r.t of ebe "putl ....... 1" J{aJaaa.,. t..it •• l't I thovaht he .... ODe 01 tile .... t of t_ •• put, MCI'.tarl •• of .. , ......

... I .t111 .0 .

.. doff.' c,ru Vaace. who •• CH .... hi ••

1tP1taeT I I dl.n t t haft too .c'b to .0 wi tla Cyna 'ace .UI'I .... , pa .. ticalar

teaure.

IIIdoff. 'aul alae. who .. wei up 11'011 the leA to __ ChI Deputy Secretal'J of

Def ..... 1967-6'.

LeIm1t •• r: IIJ _11Oc:l.atlO1l with 'aul •• with that ladd.at In our .etl .. 1n

Parll vbea he .... With 1Ir. Me".l"a aDd 1 ... 1Ite. tut .. have a .. paraee conw ...

tio ... 1 .uff eDd a •• pal"ae. DUc1.'1" ltaft lD SlIAPI.

Matloffa Salle of the people who beaded IIA dur1ua JOUr c.aur ..... how aboat VUlt_

t.aal CHI' I Very 1i ttle.

I!!tloff. Job IIcRauahton? Be .ened ta tllat politioa frOil 1964 to '67.

LeaIlltael'l Va.att h. with that .peeial 1I'0u~-vhat •• the .taff that

1Ir ..... ra •• t apt S,eted aDa1,.:I..,

Hatloffa It •• realI, the Intho".. ,roup that c1eal.t vlth the .,.teal a .. l,ll ••

42 .

• • I ~

1da •

Page detennined to be Uncl.llifled Reviewed Chief. ROD. WHS lAW EO 13526. Section 3.5

(Jate: JUL 1 7 lOll

.. t1ol!. Bow a1NMat Paul wanke, ... ened fr. '67 to '69 1. CM 11& po.tdOli.

t.a!CHr. ... I lIad "17 Uttle COIItact vi til lata.

lfatloffe 'fWD of the Jowt Chief. Cbatnall who ncca ... d 7". fint IInwll t'a,.lor,

... tlla tlneral "de Wheeler.

J4pjcurl ... ,ot ,00II .upport fr. bocb of tbell OIl lfM'O probl.... loth of

thea wre ftry wll taloned ... ft~ helpful.

Matloffl ... about Olathe effective ...... Dd the .tJle. of tlla phdde.td I

tbtDk tbat ~'ft .11' .. 41, c .... ted tbat J .... _ didD't .e. to dlepl., •• anat a

,r •• p of tile ,robhu •• did ...... .., ••• ti __ .t OD. J)fd,.... haft •• , du.li1lp

.t all witla .boa, tlla .uccaa.,r of .Joba.OD'

JAmalt .. rl Ye.,.a. watter of fact I bad • aoocJ .etiDl tbat I r ... _r with

Itr. ti:aoa. It •• daht .ftar be took office, I. Ja_17 ·1969. • u. to

...... l.a With Uaat ... r .Dd ItYe atill lOt WI littl. card OD which I put 1IOt ••

to brief hia. KlaoD •• 41 lia.laaer.

IfItloff. Do,ou 1"_ber your 'apr ... i,.. of t .... ,

t..Dluerl loth deepl, llltehated iD "TO, a ••• f.r •• I wa. coacenecl ,aft

118 fiu .upport.

Ketloff, Who.ana the fore. l .... r. ill •• feue .ad forellD polic, partieulrl,

l.pr •••• ct you orlDI your teaure a. Meant You 'y. _atiD.d ._ of tbelr--you

_ntioaed De Gaulle. • ... your cleal1aa. vi th ld.a-aDCI 1 thtllk ,OU _atJ.OMd ...

of tho .. 1IA'1'O secretary ae.r.b. Are then .. , otber people'

Lelmlt •• rz Guerd SUDaY of Turke,. I bad a areat wally dea1iBl. aDd lOBI frl.ad­

.bip vith bia throuab the. iaprO ..... llt .Dd "erlllzatio. of t... 'rurktab forc •••

43

. ' .. '. ,' ............ __ M" ~!._.;.:,. __ '. ~ .•. ~._ '.~ "" "'! .f

• • t·

r

Page determined to be UncI ••• lfted Reviewed Chief. ROD. WHS lAW EO 13526. Section 3.5 {Jate: JUL 1 '1 1013

!!tloff. .aue of tb •• '.oa. .iDl'te~. or fOrei,. a'Dl,t.r, partlcularl,

lapr ..... JOu'

le!lt •• ~ I Ko.

MaPoff, 'lbe 11181 .. aUo.. the ... ODe 1 •• ael ,ou .bout )'OUt" role .. Chair-(

.all of eM .Joint Chi.f. - "bat do J'fNI r • .,rd •• ,our uJor .c:hieftlle1lta aDcI

... cca... dud.. 10111' tllaur. .. SACIUl f

J.pU.erl I ... the reloc:aUcna, eha. of· pl.u •• 111O.t .... ry •• "et of the

whol. thine that .. aeeoaplhhecl ... re.ult of the cIIIcbon of CeDer.l De Caulk

to re ... ell .,lTO ,nd for.t. atUtary forc •• froa Fruc.. I coa.tel.r the -Jor

accoepl1. __ ta of ."11:aa ov.r • huadre4 thoueaad people, , t411lcna dollar ltu

af cc.M'Dlc..Uou. with .. ul,..nt ead eo fo~t1a, out of Franee; .ad the reloca-.

UaQ 1D Genae" .. 1&1., .n4 the "tberland.; aa' the aov •• eat _eI nlocatioa

of the Supr ... H.adquart.r., Allied fore •• Centr,l Europe .nd Alli.d Porc ••

Ctatr.l lurope. That periocl of tIrO !Del Oft.-half '''1'', 1 thiu, iIl .. ob.d •

_jor ac:c.,lt.llaant cloa. with SOod relation. with C!au.l De O.u11. and Fr.qu.

Va var... aut contilll4nlCY plana-the C01ltiq.DC, plau 1 ud. vi th Ceaer.l

AUI.r.t, tIbo .a tbe Freach Q1d of Del.a ••• taff, dc.r the break. lie botb

n.l1aed that if th.re va. a .... , hanca would no claubt be 1D it, .ad we .tarted

the deY.lopae.t of contialene., pleBa for the utiltaatl00 of .reach force.. It

abort of co-e'Dd, cbac .r. poe.ibl. to .ttala.

!!atloft: Bow about the otber .1e1e of the C01D' Any di8.ppol.blenta. auy "COlt­

plAt.d ta ..... that you woulel ha". U"" to have fia18heel, la IATOt I

LeaDttzerl I'd 11ka to eel" co the .-ceo.pUabaeat. the .p.ad vith .lell we were

,.. , ,~ , ~ 'i·,'· , .!

Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief. RO~. WHS IA.W EO 13526. Section 3.5

Uat.: JUL 1 '1 2013

I.

.w. to I.t • e .... fra. ••• 1ft ntall.tloa •• the .... 1'.1 pollC7 to flalW..

nepoaH ta 1961 •

... tloff. OIl the other .1d ••• a,tId .. tut ,M would haft Ubd to .... eGa-

platad'

~tMrl IIeall" 1 ju.t dOD't bow •.

llatloff. 'l'ben'. ao ,naMa wh,. ,.. .boald haft bU dl .. ppolac.eat., ~f ,au

dlda't.

t.ait •• rl 1 f.al pretty cOIIUd.at thaC 1 l.ft • loocI, 'IIIOrt111& orpa .. tloa

.ftel' tile Idata. of anat eha .... du. to Ge_ral De 0au11e'. ded.loa.

lletloffl 'l'haDk:roU"17 auch, e.D. ~itHr. for ,OUI' cooperatlOD aM 1I11U..-

M •• to .hare ,our -recolleedoaa with ua.

t.a,lturl I .PPl'edate what JOu'r. clol.... I'd 11. .. to coatri_te to .. ttl ...

tid. c10wa OIl ,.,.1' McaU •• ~ cia, ... , be". to do It ... ia, .ad at l ••• t

peopl. would ... bl. to look hact aDd lura ... chl .. 1I'0Il what .. did. I ... t

.. ,. dlat .. bad DOthi. to 80 OD with the •• tablfa_at of JIA.'l'O. We __ I'

dn_d that .ach aa •• at would her tUe place. I thlak oWir the ,...r. I

tab the anat •• t prid. ia ., uaociatlOD aDd tile ace.,l1a~t. of lIA."fO to

date, particularl,. S5, .. r. of relativ. peace ..

.. tloffl Oartaial, JOur actlvit1 •• ia coanectioa with JIA.'1'O to thi. da, reflect

JOUr coatiDDed iatere.t I. thl. alllaace.

s..-t tHr: Ye., 1ad •• d •

.. tloff: Thank you very .ach.

1..-lt •• r: 1 appreelate It, alUl If ,ou l'UIl lato ... partieular pp, don't

_.teate to l.t _ bow.

45

-----,~.--,~"

" -~ :'.: ..... ,_ ~ n~

Dear Mr. Goldberg,

r _

Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed Chief. ROD. WHS lAW EO 13526. Section 3.5 Llate:

JUll 7 2013

10 Pebruary 1982

Thank you for your letter of 26 January 1982 which explains the interview exchange system being established among the historical offices within the Department of Defense (Army, Navy, Air Porce, Marines, JCS and OSD.)

Dr. Alfred Goldberg OSD Historian Rooa SC32S, The Pentagon Washington~ D.C. 20301

Sincerely,

i& is not &w&ilable

access

(Ret. )

•• DECLASSIFIED IN FUlL Authority: EO 13526 Chief, Records & Declass Dlv WHS Date· •

. JUll 1 2013

-_. __ .. - - ... -•. '- ---- ..... _ .. _ .......... _---_ .. -_. __ .. - --_. __ .. _--_._ ....... _ .. _-- " ... -.... -•.. _ ...... ----.-._---_.-. -------.. .

- -----.:._.-.. _- - .~--- .. -... -----.----~-

." ......... ---- -- .. -....... -,- ..... --..... ---...... ----"'.""1 ~~ --_ ........ __ •.. _ ..... ..

.... 1ikw .... ~1D-:.··· .... -""' .•. -'" ...