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.13/10/2017 (25) 2785
Transcript produced by DTI
COPYRIGHT RESERVED
Note: Copyright in this transcript is reserved to the
Department of Finance, Services and Innovation. The
reproduction, except under authority from the Department of
Finance, Services and Innovation, of the contents of this
transcript for any purpose other than the conduct of these
proceedings is prohibited.
INQUIRY UNDER THE CHARITABLE FUNDRAISING ACT 1991
Public Hearing
Held at
Level 3, LPI Building
Queens Square
1 Prince Albert Road
Sydney, New South Wales
On Friday, 13 October 2017 at 10.00am
(Day 25)
BEFORE: The Public Inquirer,
The Hon. P A Bergin SC
Anthony Cheshire SC
Ms Jennifer Single
Mr Enzo Camporeale
.13/10/2017 (25) 2786 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, Mr Cheshire.
2
3 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you, Madam Inquirer. I call
4 Robyn Collins.
5
6 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, come into the witness box, please,
7 Ms Collins.
8
9 MR HERZFELD: Madam Inquirer, I should just announce my
10 appearance. My name is Herzfeld. I appear for WBI as
11 I did before, but I also appear for Ms Collins personally.
12
13 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, I think leave has been granted to
14 you, Mr Herzfeld.
15
16 MR HERZFELD: It has, yes.
17
18 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Please take a seat, Ms Collins.
19
20 <ROBYN GAI COLLINS, sworn: [10.00am]
21
22 <EXAMINATION BY MR CHESHIRE:
23
24 MR CHESHIRE: Ms Collins, would you give the
25 Public Inquiry your full name, please?
26 A. Robyn Gai Collins.
27
28 Q. What is your professional address?
29 A. Level 7, 245 Castlereagh Street, Sydney.
30
31 Q. What is your current occupation?
32 A. I'm the General Manager of RSL WBI and RSL (NSW).
33
34 Q. You have, I think, prepared a statement in this matter
35 dated 9 October 2017; correct?
36 A. Yes.
37
38 Q. That statement has three volumes of exhibits to it;
39 correct?
40 A. Three?
41
42 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Yes, it does.
43 A. Yes.
44
45 MR CHESHIRE: Madam Inquirer, I tender that statement with
46 the exhibits, which I think will be Exhibit 25,
47 volumes 1, 2 and 3.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2787 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1
2 EXHIBIT #25 STATEMENT OF MS ROBYN GAI COLLINS, TOGETHER
3 WITH EXHIBITS, VOLUMES 1, 2 AND 3
4
5 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Ms Collins, I think it is right that
6 you have been General Manager of WBI since 2012; is that
7 correct?
8 A. Yes.
9
10 Q. You have more recently become the General Manager of
11 RSL (NSW); correct?
12 A. Yes.
13
14 Q. When did you take up the position of General Manager
15 of RSL (NSW)?
16 A. I signed the contract on 15 August of this year.
17
18 Q. When did you commence in the position?
19 A. The contract was backdated until 1 August, but in
20 terms of handling matters, 15 August.
21
22 Q. Just to be clear, when you say the contract was
23 backdated to 1 August, does that mean that you were
24 performing, at least partly, the role of RSL (NSW) from
25 1 August?
26 A. I was learning about RSL (NSW), yes.
27
28 Q. As it were, a handover period, is that right, in those
29 two weeks between the 1st and the 15th?
30 A. I'm not sure what you mean by "handover".
31
32 Q. I'm just trying to work out, did you start work in the
33 role on 1 August for RSL (NSW)?
34 A. I don't - not fully, no.
35
36 Q. But partly?
37 A. Partly, in terms of learning. Would you like me to
38 explain?
39
40 PUBLIC INQUIRER: No, just wait for the next question.
41
42 MR CHESHIRE: Q. That's fine. When you commenced with
43 WBI in 2012, as I understand it, you understood that you
44 were going to be responsible for the overall management of
45 the whole of the WBI; is that correct?
46 A. Yes.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2788 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 Q. In fact, that turned out not to be the case; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3
4 Q. As I understand it, WBI is, or at least was, made up
5 of at least two parts, one of which was DefenceCare;
6 correct?
7 A. It wasn't called DefenceCare then, it was called the
8 Defence Services Assistance Centre.
9
10 Q. That subsequently became DefenceCare; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12
13 Q. And that part of WBI provides a range of services to
14 current and former Defence personnel and their dependants;
15 is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17
18 Q. There is also another part of WBI, as I understand it,
19 which is known as RSL Active?
20 A. Now it is known as RSL Active, yes.
21
22 Q. It previously had a different name, but it performed
23 the same role; correct?
24 A. I'm not sure. I wasn't involved in that at that time.
25
26 Q. All right. Whatever it was known as, RSL Active, as I
27 understand it, encourages veterans and serving members of
28 the Defence Force to participate in various sporting
29 programs; correct?
30 A. Yes.
31
32 Q. Is that the entirety of WBI, being DefenceCare on the
33 one hand and RSL Active on the other?
34 A. Can I clarify? Is that the entirety of when I started
35 or now?
36
37 Q. Let's take when you started?
38 A. When I started, no, it wasn't the entirety of WBI.
39
40 Q. What was the extra bit when you started?
41 A. There was a national veterans affairs adviser who was
42 an employee of WBI whose role, I understand, was reporting
43 in some way part of RSL National.
44
45 Q. DefenceCare, RSL Active and that adviser, was that
46 then the entirety of WBI when you started?
47 A. As I understood it.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2789 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1
2 Q. As things are currently constituted, it is DefenceCare
3 and RSL Active without the adviser; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5
6 Q. Am I right as well that DefenceCare, or what became
7 DefenceCare, provides two particular parts, one of which is
8 community support and one of which is what you've referred
9 to as claims and advocacy; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11
12 Q. And again, that's the entirety of DefenceCare; is that
13 correct?
14 A. Yes.
15
16 Q. When you commenced with WBI, as I understand it, it
17 became clear to you that, in fact, your role was limited to
18 the DefenceCare side; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. Am I right that you were, as you saw it, effectively,
22 excluded from the RSL Active side?
23 A. Yes.
24
25 Q. The finances of WBI as a whole, am I right, that also
26 you found yourself, effectively, excluded from those; is
27 that right?
28 A. Yes.
29
30 Q. Was any formal direction ever given to you to say to
31 you that you were limited to DefenceCare? Let me put it a
32 different way. Were you told, in effect, that you are only
33 to deal with DefenceCare or was it simply that's the way
34 that things developed?
35 A. Could I explain it a little bit? It is probably a
36 little bit the way things developed.
37
38 Q. All right. Did you at any stage raise with anybody
39 within WBI the fact that you weren't, as you saw it,
40 performing your role as General Manager of WBI?
41 A. Specifically in that way, raised that direct question?
42
43 Q. Yes.
44 A. I'm really having trouble recalling whether I actually
45 raised that direct question or whether it was more a series
46 of discussions.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2790 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 Q. When you say a series of discussions, to whom did you
2 report?
3 A. The trustees.
4
5 Q. Was there anybody on the same level as you or was
6 everybody supposed to, as you understood it, report up to
7 you and you on to the Trustees?
8 A. Can I clarify? Before I walked in - do you mean was
9 it my understanding every one was reporting to me when
10 I walked in the door?
11
12 Q. When you walked in the door, was it your understanding
13 that everybody would report to you?
14 A. Yes.
15
16 Q. In fact, did that turn out to be the case?
17 A. No.
18
19 Q. So the RSL Active side, in respect of which you had,
20 you say, no involvement, did anybody report to you from
21 that side?
22 A. No.
23
24 Q. The financial side of the entirety of WBI, which
25 I think you said was effectively controlled by Ms Mulliner;
26 is that correct?
27 A. Yes.
28
29 Q. Did she report to you?
30 A. No.
31
32 Q. So, to your understanding, she reported to the
33 trustees; is that correct?
34 A. Yes.
35
36 Q. Not only in what you did day to day, but in your
37 reporting it was as if you were the general manager of
38 DefenceCare; correct?
39 A. Yes.
40
41 Q. You have, in your exhibit, prepared a number of
42 organisational charts; is that correct? Do you recall that
43 you have produced some organisational charts?
44 A. Produced them, yes. I didn't prepare them. Some of
45 them were - I found in records.
46
47 Q. All right. Perhaps you could be provided with
.13/10/2017 (25) 2791 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 volume 1.
2 A. Thank you.
3
4 Q. Would you turn to tab 11. This is, I think, a chart
5 that predates your arrival; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7
8 Q. Would you turn to tab 12. I think, likewise, that
9 predates your arrival; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11
12 Q. Tab 13, that's a more recent version because that
13 includes you; correct?
14 A. More recent than the previous one?
15
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Yes.
18
19 Q. And as I understand it, you prepared this chart;
20 correct?
21 A. Yes.
22
23 Q. That's limited to DefenceCare rather than being a
24 chart of WBI; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
26
27 Q. Could we turn over to tab 14. As I understand it,
28 that the is current organisational chart that shows WBI;
29 correct?
30 A. Yes.
31
32 Q. When I say current, we have you in the middle as GM,
33 RSL (NSW); is that right?
34 A. And WBI, yes.
35
36 Q. So that's intending to show you covering both
37 positions; is that right?
38 A. Yes.
39
40 Q. I think, in your statement you talk about, as it were,
41 getting control back over the whole of WBI and that shows
42 that after that has occurred; correct?
43 A. Yes.
44
45 Q. You, I think, is it right, were described from time to
46 time as general manager of DefenceCare; correct?
47 A. Yes.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2792 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1
2 Q. Did you ever raise the issue of the fact you were
3 being described as something that you thought you weren't,
4 in that you thought you were general manager of WBI, but in
5 fact you were being treated as general manager of
6 DefenceCare?
7 A. Could you just ask that again, sorry? I just --
8
9 Q. As I understand it, you were described, from time to
10 time, as general manager of DefenceCare; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12
13 Q. How did you describe yourself? Did you describe
14 yourself in that way or as general manager of WBI?
15 A. General Manager DefenceCare.
16
17 Q. And that was because you saw that as being the role
18 that in fact you were carrying out; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. So you did not describe yourself as General Manager of
22 WBI; is that correct?
23 A. No.
24
25 Q. That is correct, you didn't?
26 A. Sorry, I didn't. Yes, that's right, sorry.
27
28 Q. Even though your contract referred to you as
29 General Manager of WBI; is that right?
30 A. Yes.
31
32 Q. When you commenced with WBI, as I understand it, you
33 became aware of what were described as decompression trips;
34 is that correct?
35 A. Yes.
36
37 Q. Those decompression trips, were they on the side of
38 DefenceCare or on the side of RSL Active?
39 A. RSL Active.
40
41 Q. Those trips, I think, ceased after a time; is that
42 correct?
43 A. That's my understanding, yes.
44
45 Q. Did you have any role in raising issues about those
46 trips?
47 A. Any role?
.13/10/2017 (25) 2793 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1
2 Q. Did you raise any issues about those trips?
3 A. I raised one.
4
5
Q.
All right. Who did you raise that with?
6 A. If I recall, I think it was Mr Perrin.
7
8 Q. What did you understand Mr Perrin's position was?
9 A. Trustee and - a Trustee of WBI.
10
11 Q. What issue did you raise with Mr Perrin?
12 A. The fact that I was worried that there weren't
13 specialists going along with people who were severely ill
14 and that there had been reports in the ex-service community
15 at the time of a lack of specialist support during trips
16 where people were severely ill and had mental health
17 issues, and I asked if there were appropriate specialists
18 going along.
19
20 Q. So these trips, as I understand it, were for either
21 current service people, is that right, or veterans, or just
22 for veterans?
23 A. I'm not 100 per cent sure. Would you like my
24 recollection?
25
26 Q. Yes, what was your understanding?
27 A. My recollection was there were some current serving
28 and veterans.
29
30 Q. Who had psychological issues; is that right?
31 A. I don't know for sure but I think that was
32 what - that's my recollection of what was said.
33
34 Q. Where were they being taken on these trips, as you
35 understood it?
36 A. I only have recollection of one in Hellfire Pass.
37 I don't know the others, sorry.
38
39 Q. Your belief was that if people who were unwell were
40 taken there, they needed to have proper qualified support;
41 is that right?
42 A. That was my belief.
43
44 Q. Do you know whether your complaint or issue that you
45 raised had anything to do with them being ceased, those
46 trips?
47 A. I have no idea.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2794 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1
2 Q. It was a matter that was outside of DefenceCare;
3 correct?
4 A. Yes.
5
6 Q. It was outside the role that you were actually
7 carrying out; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9
10 Q. May we take it, then, that from time to time, even
11 though your role was limited to DefenceCare, that you did
12 raise issues across, for instance, RSL Active?
13 A. I'm just trying to recall if there were many other
14 occasions. I can't recall many other occasions, I'm sorry.
15
16 Q. Perhaps if I put it this way: you didn't consider
17 that you were forbidden from raising issues about
18 RSL Active, did you?
19 A. I'm not sure I ever thought about that in those ways,
20 in those terms.
21
22 Q. But you raised that issue because you thought it was
23 an important issue to raise within WBI; correct?
24
25 PUBLIC INQUIRER: I reject that question. Next question.
26
27 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Ms Mulliner, as I understand it, went
28 on sick leave in early 2016; is that correct?
29 A. I believe so, yes.
30
31 Q. And that's the time at which you started to take a
32 larger role within WBI; correct?
33 A. It was more the middle of the year. I became more
34 active and involved.
35
36 Q. Yes. That was because, as I understand it, you needed
37 to because Ms Mulliner was not there; correct?
38 A. I believed so.
39
40 Q. So that meant that you became more involved in the
41 financial side of the business; correct?
42 A. Yes.
43
44 Q. And part of that was also you became involved, then,
45 in the formal appeals that were being conducted by WBI;
46 correct?
47 A. Not early in the year. That was the middle of the
.13/10/2017 (25) 2795 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 year.
2
3 Q. From early 2016, you started looking into more of the
4 financial side of WBI; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6
7 Q. And then in the middle of 2016, you formally became
8 involved with the formal appeals that WBI was conducting?
9 A. Yes.
10
11 Q. By "formal appeals", that's the Anzac Appeal and the
12 Poppy Day Appeal?
13 A. Yes.
14
15 Q. I think also around the same time you became involved
16 with RSL Active; correct?
17 A. Towards the end of the year.
18
19 Q. Towards the end of 2016?
20 A. Yes.
21
22 Q. And you formally assumed responsible for it; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24
25 Q. That meant, at least from that time, you really were
26 then performing the role of General Manager of WBI;
27 correct?
28 A. No. Mr Hodges, the National Veterans Affairs Adviser,
29 retired in January or February 2017, I believe.
30
31 Q. Did you take over anything from him or did his role
32 just stop?
33 A. I believe his role was reallocated by RSL National.
34
35 Q. So outside of WBI?
36 A. Yes.
37
38 Q. From late 2016, you had taken over DefenceCare,
39 effectively, as General Manager of DefenceCare and
40 General Manager of RSL Active; is that right?
41 A. Yes.
42
43 Q. With only the adviser left over, as it were, that you
44 had no responsibility for?
45 A. No, I had no responsibility for finance, IT, HR.
46 They were still outsourced to RSL (NSW).
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2796 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 Q. Finance - how was that then being performed in
2 Ms Mulliner's absence?
3 A. The finance manager was attending the trustees's
4 meetings and providing the information to the Trustees.
5
6 Q. That finance manager was the finance manager of
7 RSL (NSW); is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9
10 Q. Even at that time, then, did you consider that you
11 were performing the role of General Manager of even
12 DefenceCare?
13 A. At that time - it's difficult to answer with a yes or
14 no. I probably - could I answer with a --
15
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. I probably felt that I was starting to assume control
18 over more of WBI by the end of 2016, but I was aware that
19 the finance manager did not report to me.
20
21 Q. So the finance manager continued to report to the
22 Trustees; is that right?
23 A. In WBI, yes.
24
25 Q. So the RSL (NSW) finance manager was responsible for
26 the finances of WBI; correct?
27 A. Yes.
28
29 Q. And reported to the Trustees of WBI in that regard?
30 A. Yes.
31
32 Q. I think, as you became increasingly involved in the
33 financial side of WBI, you became concerned about some of
34 the things that you discovered; is that right?
35 A. Yes.
36
37 Q. There were matters in respect of donations that you
38 were concerned about; correct?
39 A. Yes.
40
41 Q. And about financial management generally; correct?
42 A. Yes.
43
44 Q. And I think you raised a number of these with
45 Mr Kolomeitz; is that right?
46 A. Yes.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2797 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 Q. And at the time he was one of the Trustees?
2 A. Yes.
3
4 Q. The response that you received from Mr Kolomeitz, did
5 that appear to be helpful?
6 A. Yes.
7
8 Q. As matters went on, you were becoming more involved in
9 discovering more issues; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11
12 Q. As you became more involved in those financial issues,
13 did you have a closer relationship with the finance
14 manager?
15
16 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Just let me understand. Closer than --
17
18 MR CHESHIRE: Q. I think you described the finance
19 manager reported to the Trustees, as I understand it?
20 A. Yes.
21
22 Q. You had been completely excluded from finance issues,
23 correct, up until this point?
24 A. Up until - yes.
25
26 Q. At this point, as you became more involved with the
27 financial side of WBI, did you start to have more
28 communications, more dealings with the finance manager?
29 A. Yes.
30
31 Q. You were aware that WBI prepared financial statements
32 each year?
33 A. Yes.
34
35 Q. To your understanding, was that done by the
36 finance manager or the finance manager's team?
37 A. I understood it was done by the CFO.
38
39 Q. Being the CFO of?
40 A. RSL (NSW).
41
42 Q. Being Ms Mulliner, as you understood it?
43 A. Yes.
44
45 Q. Then when Ms Mulliner was off on sick leave, did you
46 have an understanding he was preparing the financial
47 statements of WBI?
.13/10/2017 (25) 2798 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 A. Do you mean the annual financial statements or the
2 monthly?
3
4 Q. Let's try the annual, first of all.
5 A. The annual, I presumed that would have been by
6 Mr Umrigar, but Ms Mulliner had already completed 2015 and
7 the - we were in the year 2016, so there was - we wouldn't
8 have expected the annual financial statements to have been
9 completed by Mr Umrigar until early 2017.
10
11 Q. Mr Umrigar was the finance manager for RSL (NSW);
12 correct?
13 A. Yes.
14
15 Q. The monthly reports that you mentioned, was that him
16 and his department that were preparing those?
17 A. Yes.
18
19 Q. When I say "his department", his department within
20 RSL (NSW)?
21 A. Yes.
22
23 Q. Did you have any involvement with the auditors of WBI?
24 A. At what stage?
25
26 Q. At any time?
27 A. The beginning of this year was the first time that
28 I recall a member of the audit team coming to see me.
29 It may have been about March or a bit later, so not quite
30 the beginning of this year, about some changes we wanted to
31 make to the funds in the balance sheet.
32
33 Q. When you say "the funds in the balance sheet", what do
34 you mean by that?
35 A. In the balance sheet of RSL WBI there were a number of
36 funds, a couple of which - one was called a hospital fund,
37 I believe, that didn't seem to have any transactions or
38 very limited transactions on them and I understand they had
39 been there for a number of years. In the course of getting
40 prepared for the 2016 audit, I asked some questions about
41 those funds and asked to see the files and then asked for
42 one of the members of my team to go back and put a
43 historical record together of transactions in those funds
44 and to see whether those funds were currently being used or
45 would be used in the future as to whether we should keep
46 them in the balance sheet.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2799 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 Q. So did those funds appear to you to be dormant?
2 A. Yes.
3
4 Q. And what was the result of that?
5 A. The result of that was a recommendation was made to
6 the Trustees and the Trustees agreed that they were no
7 longer needed, they were dormant, and that we had,
8 I believe, passed that on to the audit or Mr Umrigar had
9 passed it on to the auditor and the auditor - one of the
10 auditors' team came and met with me to go through the files
11 and talk about the dormant funds.
12
13 Q. Were those funds wound up or did something happen to
14 them?
15 A. We were going to wind them up. The money had really
16 already been expended for the purpose it was intended, but
17 it must not have been taken out of the funds, but the audit
18 did not progress, so nothing has been done at the moment.
19
20 Q. I think you said that the time of that was the early
21 part of this year.
22 A. I'm trying to remember the month - possibly
23 March/April.
24
25 Q. With the exception of that, did you ever have any
26 dealings on any issue with anybody from Grant Thornton,
27 being the auditors of WBI?
28 A. Could I explain?
29
30 Q. Yes.
31 A. I had a vague recollection of attending a meeting in
32 early 2016 with the Trustees and I thought the auditor was
33 present, but when I met Ms Sheridan in June this year, it
34 was clear she did not recognise me, so I realised I was
35 mistaken and that meeting probably wasn't with the auditor.
36 And I was sitting in - I thought I was sitting in on a
37 meeting talking about the 2015 accounts that Ms Mulliner
38 had prepared, but I realised I was probably mistaken. So
39 the first time that I had dealings with the auditor would
40 have been meeting one of Ms Sheridan's team in earlier this
41 year, as I said, and then I met with Ms Sheridan in June of
42 2017.
43
44 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Did you recognise Ms Sheridan?
45 A. The lady I recalled meeting I thought had a different
46 hair colour.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2800 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 Q. So you did or you didn't recognise her?
2 A. I didn't - I'd seen her picture, I don't know whether
3 it was from that.
4
5 Q. I'm just asking you did you recognise her.
6 A. Not particularly.
7
8 PUBLIC INQUIRER: All right. Yes, Mr Cheshire. That's
9 all right.
10
11 MR CHESHIRE: Q. The meeting you had with her in June of
12 this year, what was the purpose of that?
13 A. To go and to see why the audit had stalled, what were
14 the problems associated with the stalling of the audit.
15
16 Q. When you say the stalling of the audit, it appeared to
17 you to have stalled on the side of the auditor; is that
18 right?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. Were you given an explanation?
22 A. I found it difficult to understand the explanation.
23
24 Q. To the best of your recollection, what was the effect
25 of the explanation you received?
26 A. That more work needed to be done.
27
28 Q. About any particular issue?
29 A. I can't recall, I'm sorry.
30
31 Q. You're aware that WBI has admitted certain breaches in
32 respect of the Charitable Fundraising Act; correct?
33 A. Yes.
34
35 Q. And some breaches in relation to the presentation of
36 its financial statements; correct?
37 A. Yes.
38
39 Q. Did you have any discussion with Ms Sheridan about
40 those breaches, asking her how this could have happened?
41 A. In that particular meeting?
42
43 Q. In any meeting?
44 A. I think that might be the only meeting I've had with
45 her. I don't recall that.
46
47 Q. You didn't --
.13/10/2017 (25) 2801 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 A. No, I don't think so.
2
3 Q. You didn't think to raise that with her?
4 A. At the time it wasn't the purpose of the meeting and,
5 no, I didn't think to raise that with her.
6
7 Q. I have asked you about communications with the
8 auditors and you've given evidence as to your meetings that
9 you had. Just to be clear, are there any other
10 communications that you've had with the auditor outside of
11 meetings?
12 A. A few phone calls and some emails, I think.
13
14 Q. To the best of your recollection, what was the subject
15 matter or the effect of those telephone calls?
16 A. Again, to try and move along with the audit.
17
18 Q. When were those telephone calls and emails?
19 A. Probably before - some of the telephone calls or
20 perhaps one of the telephone calls, I'm not sure now, was
21 before the meeting in June. There may have been more than
22 one around about that time, May, June, July this year.
23
24 Q. Am I right that, to the best of your recollection, you
25 did not have any dealings of any type with any of the audit
26 team prior to February-March of this year?
27 A. To the best of my recollection, yes.
28
29 Q. I asked you about the meeting in June, but am I right
30 that you have never raised with any of the audit team,
31 whether in writing or orally, the issue of the breaches of
32 the Charitable Fundraising Act?
33 A. I don't recall having done that.
34
35 Q. One of the issues that I think you became aware of at
36 an earlier time was the fact that WBI's objects were
37 limited to ex-servicemen rather than current servicemen;
38 correct?
39 A. Yes.
40
41 Q. And that continues to be the case under the rules of
42 WBI; correct?
43 A. Yes.
44
45 Q. I think you became aware of that soon after you
46 commenced in about 2012; correct?
47 A. Yes.
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1
2 Q. I think it right that you have raised that issue from
3 time to time?
4 A. Yes.
5
6 Q. Your issue was that in the light of those limited
7 objects, it appeared that WBI was providing assistance to
8 people in breach of its objects; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10
11 Q. As I understand the position, it has continued to
12 provide assistance to current servicemen and their
13 dependants as well as ex; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15
16 Q. Therefore, at least to your understanding, WBI has
17 continued to be in breach of its objects from when you
18 started to the current day; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. You had raised that from time to time; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23
24 Q. But nothing seems to have been done; correct?
25 A. No, steps have been taken.
26
27 Q. When you say "steps have been taken", what steps have
28 been taken?
29 A. Do you want me to go back to outline them all?
30
31 Q. Let me put it this way: the objects have not been
32 amended; correct?
33 A. Not at the moment, no.
34
35 Q. And WBI has continued to provide for current service
36 people and their dependants; correct?
37 A. Yes.
38
39 Q. In terms of steps to resolve either of those two
40 matters, nothing has been done, at least, to date?
41 A. I think work has - sorry, I'm not sure of the answer.
42
43 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. You've already told me that you
44 have started work?
45 A. Yes, started work.
46
47 MR CHESHIRE: Q. What's the current position in that
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1 regard?
2 A. The current position is the most recent advice was
3 that the objects of WBI could not be changed and that the
4 alternative was to set up a new legal entity which had
5 broader objects, and that WBI would engage the new legal
6 entities to deliver the services that related to its
7 objects, but that the new legal entity would have broader
8 objects that were more in line with what was needed in the
9 sector.
10
11 Q. Is that an option that you understand is going to be
12 pursued?
13 A. That's an option that the Trustees are considering at
14 the moment.
15
16 Q. To your understanding, has a decision been made as to
17 whether there is going to be a new entity set up along
18 those lines?
19 A. No, there's no decision yet.
20
21 Q. As things currently stand, WBI continues to provide
22 for current as well as ex-service people; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24
25 Q. And its objects continue to be limited to ex-service
26 people; correct?
27 A. Yes.
28
29 Q. One of the issues that you have drawn attention to is
30 the relationship between WBI and the various other RSL
31 entities, I think you refer to as RSL (NSW), LifeCare, the
32 sub-branches and the women's auxiliaries. You understand
33 that although they have a relationship, they are separate
34 legal entities; correct?
35 A. Yes.
36
37 Q. In your statement you talk about achieving some form
38 of separation. Is it your view that at least until
39 recently there has been a blurring of the lines between the
40 various of those entities?
41 A. Yes.
42
43 Q. So one of the things that you have been keen to
44 achieve is some form of further separation between the
45 various legal entities; correct?
46 A. Could I explain a little?
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2804 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 Q. Yes.
2 A. One of my goals has been to improve governance and if
3 that, as a result, leads to a separation, then that is what
4 needs to happen. So my goal really has been to improve
5 governance in WBI.
6
7 Q. When you say to "improve governance", as I understand
8 it, historically, one of the issues that appears to have
9 been the case is that WBI had its finances being
10 effectively run by RSL (NSW); correct?
11 A. Yes.
12
13 Q. And that's something that you would consider when they
14 are separate entities to be not good governance?
15 A. Could I answer that with an explanation?
16
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. I think if the service is appropriate and you're
19 getting the information that you need to make sound
20 decisions, it's not necessarily poor governance to
21 outsource a particular function. I think if you're not,
22 however, getting the sufficient information to be able to
23 make sound decisions for a legal entity and the information
24 you're being given and you can't change or you can't get
25 traction to change in the current outsource service
26 provider, then good governance is to change. Whether
27 that's to change to another service provider or to bring it
28 in-house, that's a decision that you could make, either
29 decision would be acceptable.
30
31 Q. But when you earlier referred to being excluded from
32 financial matters in relation to WBI, you would accept that
33 it would not be appropriate for the General Manager of
34 WBI to be excluded from financial matters; correct?
35 A. No, if you were the full General Manager of the
36 organisation.
37
38 Q. And whatever you call it, you would accept that even
39 if somebody else is carrying out the day-to-day management
40 of the financial records, the information has to flow back
41 in to WBI; correct?
42 A. Yes.
43
44 Q. And not simply go to the Trustees; correct?
45 A. No.
46
47 Q. You agree?
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1 A. Yes.
2
3 Q. Whether you call yourself General Manager or anything
4 else, there has to be somebody within WBI who has knowledge
5 of everything that is going on financially; is that
6 correct?
7 A. I think it is advisable, yes.
8
9 Q. Well, isn't it essential?
10 A. Yes.
11
12 Q. And,indeed, to be in a position to supervise what is
13 going on financially; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15
16 Q. And to change it if necessary?
17 A. Yes.
18
19 Q. And that includes issues such as compliance issues;
20 correct?
21 A. Yes.
22
23 Q. For instance, in the context of this Inquiry, it is
24 not appropriate to outsource entirely issues of complying
25 with the Charitable Fundraising Act; correct?
26 A. Not appropriate, no. I agree, sorry. Yes. Sorry.
27
28 Q. In the context of the blurring of the lines between
29 the organisations, one of the issues that you have had
30 concern about is the use of WBI as what has been described,
31 I think, as I clearing house for donations to other
32 entities; correct?
33 A. I was concerned about that.
34
35 Q. That appeared to arise, at least in part, again out of
36 this blurring of the lines between the various entities; is
37 that right?
38 A. I don't know whether that's how it arose, I'm sorry,
39 I don't know.
40
41 Q. Have you taken steps, though, to prevent that
42 happening again?
43 A. Yes.
44
45 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Have you discussed that with the
46 auditor?
47 A. I have not had much in the way of dealings with the
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1 auditor at all this year, sorry.
2
3 Q. I am just asking you have you discussed removing the
4 clearing house phenomenon with the auditor?
5 A. Mr Umrigar may have --
6
7 Q. I'm just asking you --
8 A. No, personally, no, sorry.
9
10 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes. Thank you, Mr Cheshire.
11
12 MR CHESHIRE: Q. That's happened with other ventures,
13 correct - commercial ventures, film ventures?
14 A. What ventures, sorry?
15
16 Q. The use of WBI as, in effect, a clearing house for
17 donations; correct?
18 A. Could you repeat the whole question, sorry.
19
20 Q. You're aware that WBI has been used, as you call it,
21 as a transit place or a clearing house for donations to go
22 to a commercial film venture; correct?
23 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.
24
25 Q. You're not aware of that?
26 A. Not of - sorry of WBI - could you explain what you
27 mean by that? WBI used as a clearing - sorry.
28
29 Q. You were aware, were you not, that donations that were
30 intended to go to a particular venture went through WBI;
31 correct?
32
33 PUBLIC INQUIRER: You're sending mixed messages here. I'm
34 going to ask Mr Cheshire to write on a piece of paper the
35 name of the venture.
36
37 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Do you have volume 1 in front of you?
38 That may be the easiest way. If you have your statement at
39 the beginning, if you turn to paragraph 268. There's no
40 need to read it out, Ms Collins, but you see the reference
41 there? Ms Collins, do you see --
42 A. Yes.
43
44 Q. Does that refresh your memory?
45 A. I'm aware of the donations.
46
47 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Just wait. You're just being asked
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1 whether you see it, and I think you do?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3
4 Q. There's no need to refer to the actual production for
5 the moment, until Mr Cheshire invites you to do so.
6 A. Yes.
7
8 MR CHESHIRE: Q. You had a concern about that issue;
9 correct?
10 A. Yes.
11
12 Q. You had a concern about the moneys that was intended
13 for this venture but it was going through WBI; correct?
14 A. No, I did not know the moneys were going through WBI.
15 I was aware that WBI at one stage made a donation. I was
16 not aware that moneys from sub-branches went through WBI to
17 the venture.
18
19 Q. Were you aware that, in effect, WBI's fundraising
20 authority or charitable status was being used to facilitate
21 donations to this venture? If you look at paragraph 272,
22 do you see the reference there to the donation?
23 A. Yes. Yes, sorry, I didn't connect the question with
24 that, sorry.
25
26 Q. Yes. That was a concern that you had; correct?
27 A. Yes. Yes.
28
29 Q. To similar effect, I think, what you have described,
30 if you turn to paragraph 99, as transit payments to
31 LifeCare and the women's auxiliary; correct?
32 A. Yes.
33
34 Q. That, again, you had a concern about; correct?
35 A. Yes.
36
37 Q. If people wanted to donate to WBI, they should donate
38 to WBI; correct?
39 A. Yes.
40
41 Q. But if people wanted to donate, for instance, to
42 LifeCare or the women's auxiliaries they should do so,
43 correct?
44 A. Yes.
45
46 Q. So WBI should not be used as some form of transit hub
47 or clearing house; correct?
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1 A. Yes.
2
3 Q. Have you put steps in train to ensure that those
4 matters do not happen?
5 A. Yes.
6
7 Q. What have you put in place?
8 A. I asked the Trustees whether we could resolve that any
9 donations sent to WBI that were intended for a different
10 organisation would be returned to the donor with
11 information on where to send the donation, so that it went
12 to their intended recipient.
13
14 Q. Do I understand it you thought that was just bad
15 practice for them to come through WBI; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17
18 Q. It wasn't a matter that you looked at from the
19 perspective of the Charitable Fundraising Act?
20 A. No.
21
22 Q. You also, I think, had a credit card that you used,
23 correct, that was provided for your use?
24 A. Yes.
25
26 Q. As you understood it, that was being paid by the
27 Hyde Park Inn; correct?
28 A. I'm not sure how to answer that. I'm not sure how to
29 answer that. Do you want me to explain what I understood?
30
31 Q. You understood, didn't you, that you weren't paying
32 the bill; correct?
33 A. No, I understood that WBI was reimbursing the
34 Hyde Park Inn.
35
36 Q. Yes, but in the first instance you understood that the
37 bill was being paid by the Hyde Park Inn; correct?
38 A. I found that out, yes.
39
40 Q. You understood that the Hyde Park Inn was part of the
41 RSL (NSW); correct?
42 A. Yes.
43
44 Q. Again, even if WBI was reimbursing, you formed the
45 view that that was not good practice; correct?
46 A. Yes.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2809 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 Q. Did you do something to stop that?
2 A. I asked whether WBI could have its own credit cards.
3
4 Q. What happened with that?
5 A. I was told no, it couldn't.
6
7 Q. What is the situation today? Do they continue to be
8 paid, as you understand it, by the Hyde Park Inn?
9 A. As I understand it, yes, they do. We are trying to
10 change that.
11
12 Q. Is there any reason that you can see as to why WBI
13 cannot have its own credit cards?
14 A. No, I can't see any reason why it couldn't.
15
16 Q. In the context of the Hyde Park Inn, are you aware
17 that one of the issues that this Inquiry has looked as was
18 the resignation of Mr Rowe in November 2014?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. And the issue of his expenses?
22 A. Yes.
23
24 Q. And one of the issues that has been raised is that his
25 son was living in an apartment provided for him at the
26 Hyde Park Inn?
27 A. Yes.
28
29 Q. As at that time, November 2014, were you working at
30 Anzac House?
31 A. Yes.
32
33 Q. The floor that you were working on, did it have
34 employees of RSL (NSW)?
35 A. Registry, one, and the communications, two. Two.
36
37 Q. Two people?
38 A. Yes.
39
40 Q. Was there interaction with the other floors within
41 Anzac House?
42 A. DefenceCare interaction?
43
44 Q. Did you have any interactions with people on other
45 floors in Anzac House?
46 A. Some. Limited.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2810 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 Q. Do you remember any discussion about the reason for
2 Mr Rowe's departure?
3 A. No.
4
5 Q. Do you remember any discussion about Mr Rowe having
6 any problem with his expenses?
7 A. No.
8
9 Q. What was the first that you found out about there
10 being any issue with Mr Rowe's expenses?
11 A. The media, when it hit - when it was reported in the
12 media.
13
14 Q. At that time, did you have any discussions with
15 anybody within RSL (NSW) about that issue?
16 A. I can't recall specifics of anything possibly other
17 than a general "I am shocked" type of comment. Nothing
18 specific comes to mind, I'm sorry.
19
20 Q. You don't recall anybody saying to you, for instance,
21 something to the effect, "Well, everybody knew about his
22 expenses", or anything to that effect?
23 A. No, not that I can recall.
24
25 Q. I asked you earlier about what you described as the
26 formal appeals being the Anzac Day and Poppy Day appeals.
27 You were also involved in various other fundraising appeals
28 that were conducted by DefenceCare; correct?
29 A. Yes.
30
31 Q. Am I right that you did not look at those from the
32 point of view of the Charitable Fundraising Act?
33 A. Sorry?
34
35 Q. Those appeals, did you consider at the time they were
36 being carried out, whether WBI was in fact complying with
37 the Charitable Fundraising Act?
38 A. Did I consider it? I'm not sure how to answer that.
39
40 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Did you think about the
41 Charitable Fundraising Act when you were doing the appeal?
42 A. Yes, we did.
43
44 Q. All right.
45 A. Yes, we did.
46
47 MR CHESHIRE: Q. When you commenced, am I right that
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1 from at least 2012 onwards, you were aware that WBI was
2 engaged in fundraising?
3 A. Yes.
4
5 Q. You were aware, were you, that it had a charitable
6 fundraising authority?
7 A. Yes.
8
9 Q. But you were aware that, in fact, WBI was in breach of
10 its authority; correct?
11 A. No, I wasn't aware at that stage.
12
13 Q. You are now aware, are you?
14 A. I'm now aware, yes.
15
16 Q. It appears from that that even if you turned your mind
17 to the issue of whether WBI was complying with Charitable
18 Fundraising Act, you didn't get it right; correct?
19 A. Hard to answer yes/no. In hindsight, yes, we didn't
20 get it right, sorry.
21
22 Q. Do you think that's because, in fact, you did not give
23 sufficient consideration to the Act?
24 A. In hindsight - at the time, I thought we were giving
25 sufficient consideration to the Act and I thought we were
26 researching what we needed to do when people requested to
27 fundraise. At the time I had thought we were. I had no
28 oversight of the finances, so I was not aware of the lack
29 of compliance there. With hindsight, looking back, in its
30 totality, those were not compliant.
31
32 Q. If one takes the financial side, you are aware, aren't
33 you, that there are certain requirements as to how bank
34 accounts are to be kept?
35 A. Yes.
36
37 Q. If you knew that WBI was fundraising and you knew that
38 it had a fundraising authority, then you knew that that
39 obligation was there; correct?
40 A. Yes.
41
42 Q. In order to find out how the accounts were kept, you
43 would have needed either to have looked at that or to have
44 asked somebody; correct?
45 A. Yes.
46
47 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Mr Herzfeld, I presume there's a
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1 section 41 application here?
2
3 MR HERZFELD: We haven't made any application yet.
4
5 PUBLIC INQUIRER: I understand that, that's why I'm
6 raising it.
7
8 MR HERZFELD: No, in relation to the statement.
9
10 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Do you want to make an application to
11 object?
12
13 MR HERZFELD: Would you just excuse me for one minute?
14
15 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes.
16
17 MR HERZFELD: No, we don't, not at this stage. I am
18 listening to the questions carefully.
19
20 PUBLIC INQUIRER: There has been admission, and I just
21 want you to be clear. I think I might take a short
22 adjournment. It is not a matter of any concern. Just step
23 down for a moment, Ms Collins. I just want there to be no
24 misunderstanding and I want to make sure that the benefits
25 of the legislation are looked at. I'll leave it with you,
26 Mr Herzfeld, and I'll return shortly.
27
28 MR HERZFELD: I appreciate the time.
29
30 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you, no problem.
31
32 SHORT ADJOURNMENT
33
34 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, thank you. Yes, Mr Herzfeld?
35
36 MR HERZFELD: Thank you for the time. With the benefit of
37 that time, we do on Ms Collins' behalf take an objection in
38 relation to the topic of compliance with the Charitable
39 Fundraising Act.
40
41 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes. While you're on your feet,
42 Mr Herzfeld, I'm also conscious of the statements that were
43 made in respect of the Trust operating in breach of Trust.
44
45 MR HERZFELD: Yes.
46
47 PUBLIC INQUIRER: It seems to me, perhaps if I may be able
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1 to suggest to you, that you do make an objection generally
2 for the moment in respect of the aspects of the evidence.
3 I know that Ms Collins is not a Trustee, but the knowledge,
4 et cetera, in circumstances where I apprehend that nothing
5 has been done to approach the court for guidance or
6 corrections; is that right?
7
8 MR HERZFELD: Yes.
9
10 PUBLIC INQUIRER: I would like to hear about that in due
11 course because I now know, on the evidence, that there is a
12 problem. At the moment I'll note your general objection
13 and then you can provide a schedule in respect of any
14 questions and answers that you wish to be included in that
15 objection. Does that suit, Mr Herzfeld?
16
17 MR HERZFELD: It does. Obviously that topic is also
18 covered in the statement itself.
19
20 PUBLIC INQUIRER: It is.
21
22 MR HERZFELD: I'm not sure what --
23
24 PUBLIC INQUIRER: I will note your objection to the
25 contents of the statement as well.
26
27 MR HERZFELD: Yes, thank you.
28
29 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you, Mr Herzfeld.
30
31 Q. Ms Collins, come back into the witness box, please.
32 Ms Collins, you've heard what I've said and you've heard
33 what has been said.
34 A. Yes.
35
36 Q. Let me just indicate to you that I have noted that you
37 object to answering any questions on the ground that they
38 may tend to expose you to prosecution for a criminal
39 offence or a civil penalty and that, in due course, your
40 counsel will provide a schedule to the Inquiry which will
41 be noting your objections. The effect of that objection is
42 that any answer that you give in respect of those questions
43 cannot be used against you in those proceedings to which
44 I've just referred. Do you understand that?
45 A. Yes.
46
47 Q. The only protection in this circumstance that is not
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1 provided to you is that if you do not tell me the truth.
2 Do you understand that?
3 A. Yes.
4
5 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, thank you. Yes, Mr Cheshire?
6
7 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you.
8
9 Q. Ms Collins, as I understand it, when you commenced
10 with WBI you were aware that DefenceCare, at least, was
11 fundraising; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13
14 Q. And you were aware that WBI had a fundraising
15 authority; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17
18 Q. That covered that fundraising?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. And you were aware that the fundraising authority
22 imposed certain conditions; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24
25 Q. And you were aware that, likewise, the Charitable
26 Fundraising Act and the regulation imposed certain
27 obligations?
28 A. Yes.
29
30 Q. You are now aware that, in fact, WBI did not comply
31 with the Act, the regulation and its conditions; correct?
32 A. I'm now aware, yes.
33
34 Q. Yes. What I'm trying to explore with you is how that
35 happened, given that you knew you were fundraising and you
36 knew there were obligations. What I'm asking is is the
37 answer to that that you didn't make sufficient inquiries or
38 that you misunderstood the obligations or you left it to
39 somebody else, or something else?
40 A. I understood that the financial obligations and the
41 reporting obligations were outside of my control, were the
42 responsibility of the CFO and the Trustees, and
43 I understood my obligation to be to ensure that the small
44 fundraisers for DefenceCare met the requirements under the
45 Charitable Fundraising Act and the authority and the
46 regulations.
47
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1 Q. Did you discuss those obligations with anybody else
2 within WBI?
3 A. Yes. The marketing and fundraising manager.
4
5 Q. Were they there when you started?
6 A. No. I recruited the first marketing and fundraising
7 manager in November 2012.
8
9 Q. And that was whom?
10 A. Xiong Luong.
11
12 Q. Sorry, you may need to spell that.
13 A. X-U-O-N-G, it's pronounced "Som", S-O-M, and Luong,
14 L-U-O-N-G.
15
16 Q. That person, I think, Mr Luong, was then succeeded by
17 Ms Rocchi; is that right?
18 A. That's correct.
19
20 Q. That is R-O-C-C-H-I; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22
23 Q. In fact, is Mr Luong's first name spelt X-U-O-N-G or
24 X-I-O-N-G?
25 A. X-I-O-N-G, sorry.
26
27 Q. You discussed those requirements with Mr Luong, but am
28 I right you didn't discuss them with the Trustees; correct?
29 A. Not specifically that I can recall.
30
31 Q. And you didn't discuss them with Ms Mulliner either;
32 correct?
33 A. No. We asked Ms Mulliner for a number of things on
34 occasion and to clarify points in relation to fundraising.
35 She was my - and Xiong - our first point of call for
36 questions.
37
38 Q. In terms of compliance with the Act, conditions and
39 the regulations, you never said anything to the effect to
40 Ms Mulliner, "Are we in fact complying with the Act?"
41 A. I don't recall specifically asking, "Are we complying
42 with the Act in terms of the finance?"
43
44 Q. What about with the day to day operation of the
45 appeals, what needed to be done on the non-financial side,
46 was that managed by Mr Luong?
47 A. These informal appeals?
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1
2 Q. Well, anything that was not covered by the Anzac Day
3 Appeal and the Poppy Day Appeal?
4 A. Yes, initially, it was managed by Mr Luong.
5
6 Q. With issues such as keeping registers of collectors
7 and those sorts of matters, did you leave that to Mr Luong?
8 A. Yes.
9
10 Q. Did you ever have any discussions to ensure that he
11 was, in fact, ensuring that WBI was compliant?
12 A. Yes, we met weekly and we would discuss various small
13 fundraisers, and there would be times he would be looking
14 up the website and we would discuss issues associated with
15 fundraises. They were very small fundraises and most of
16 them were quite simple.
17
18 Q. When you say "issues", you refer to there, am I right,
19 to general issues rather than specifically being matters of
20 compliance?
21 A. They weren't necessarily just general issues. There
22 would be occasion we would be discussing issuing an
23 authority, whether something was a fundraising or not.
24 There were times when people would ring and it wasn't
25 fundraising or the idea didn't come to fruition. There
26 were a number of things we would discuss.
27
28 Q. What about if fundraising was to be carried out by way
29 of, say, collection buckets with collectors, did you turn
30 your mind to issues such as whether there needed to be a
31 register of collectors, a register of buckets, those sorts
32 of matters?
33 A. Yes, and sequential numbering and the issuing of ID
34 cards, how they were issued, yes.
35
36 Q. How did you ensure that there was compliance with
37 that?
38 A. By discussions with Mr Luong and Ms Rocchi as to what
39 we needed to issue, whether we needed to issue, the records
40 we needed to keep. Through the discussions.
41
42 Q. Did you have access to the bank accounts of WBI?
43 A. Not until October this year.
44
45 Q. Am I right, then, that you did not have online access
46 to those accounts?
47 A. No.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2817 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1
2 Q. To your understanding, did anybody within WBI have
3 access to the bank accounts of WBI?
4 A. It's my understanding that none of the employees did.
5 I did not know about the Trustees.
6
7 Q. When you were discussing with Mr Luong issues relating
8 to appeals, how did you understand that the money that came
9 in was going to be handled?
10 A. We understood that RSL (NSW) would handle that. At
11 one stage we asked what bank account WBI had and we were
12 given that information, but in terms of the financial side,
13 we understood that that would be managed and handled by
14 RSL (NSW).
15
16 Q. In effect, it wasn't just the management of the
17 financial records; as you understood it, RSL (NSW) was
18 managing the entire finances of WBI, is that correct?
19 A. That's correct, yes.
20
21 Q. Did you even know whether the money that came in from
22 fundraising was going to go into a WBI account or into an
23 RSL (NSW) account?
24 A. I could not see that. I could not confirm that.
25
26 Q. Did you have a view as to what was happening to it?
27 A. I felt it was going into the WBI account. I presumed
28 it was. We would occasionally see in the income statements
29 reference to particular donors that we were dealing with.
30 I had no evidence or anything to suggest that it wasn't.
31
32 Q. Am I right that you never had a discussion with
33 Ms Mulliner about what was happening to the money?
34 A. I can't recall a specific discussion with Ms Mulliner
35 about that.
36
37 Q. Do I take it also that you're not aware of Mr Luong
38 having had any discussions with Ms Mulliner about that?
39 A. I don't know. He may have.
40
41 Q. Do you accept that given your role within at least
42 DefenceCare that you were carrying out, that's a matter
43 that you ought to have had discussions with Ms Mulliner
44 about?
45 A. I believe I would have, had I thought at any stage
46 that there was a problem, but I had no evidence of any
47 problem or reason to do so.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2818 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1
2 Q. But in the context of compliance and the importance of
3 compliance, do you not accept that you ought to have had
4 some conversation with Ms Mulliner where you said to her,
5 "Can we just make sure we're compliant" or, "Are we
6 compliant?", or something to that effect?
7 A. It was never my role to do that. I understood that
8 quite clearly.
9
10 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Never your role to do what?
11 A. To question Ms Mulliner. With hindsight, if I sit
12 here now, I would like to say that in better knowledge -
13 I didn't have that knowledge then. I had no - anything to
14 suggest - no evidence to suggest that there was anything
15 wrong that needed questioning at the time.
16
17 MR CHESHIRE: Q. You understood Ms Mulliner was in fact
18 employed by RSL (NSW); correct?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. Even if you regarded the financial management as being
22 outscored, the issue of compliance by WBI was matter for
23 you; correct?
24 A. Not as I understood it, no.
25
26 Q. In relation to matters of compliance with the
27 Charitable Fundraising Act by WBI, who did you understand
28 at that time had that responsibility?
29 A. The Trustees.
30
31 Q. Yes. And presumably they were entitled to rely upon
32 their staff; correct?
33 A. Yes.
34
35 Q. Who then within the staff of WBI had responsibility
36 for compliance?
37 A. The charitable - can I just answer that by way of
38 explanation?
39
40 Q. Yes.
41 A. My understanding the Charitable Fundraising Act is
42 quite broad. I felt I had responsibility in the liaison
43 with people who wanted to do small fundraisers and the
44 responsibility - we took responsibility for things like
45 collection buckets, ID tags, talking to them and issuing
46 authorities. Once there were any financial transactions,
47 that was outside my area of responsibility.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2819 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1
2 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. When you say issuing authorities,
3 to what are you referring?
4 A. We occasionally issued an authority to fundraise.
5
6 Q. I see.
7 A. If someone asked us if they could fundraise on our
8 behalf. Most of the time when we spoke to people,
9 certainly in my discussions with Mr Luong and Ms Rocchi, it
10 often didn't turn into fundraising, but --
11
12 Q. Just on the authority to fundraise, I presume that was
13 in the form of a letter --
14 A. A letter.
15
16 Q. -- that you allowed them to present to the public as
17 your agent, effectively; is that right, or --
18 A. Yes. It would have been the occasional one.
19
20 Q. You allowed them to fundraise under WBI's fundraising
21 authority?
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23
24 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, I understand that. Yes,
25 Mr Cheshire.
26
27 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Would you accept that irrespective of
28 the fact that the finance issues may have been outsourced
29 to RSL (NSW), somebody within WBI ought to have been given
30 the responsibility for ensuring compliance with all aspects
31 of the Charitable Fundraising Act?
32 A. That would have been a matter for the Trustees to
33 decide, yes.
34
35 Q. Am I right that you set up the website of WBI?
36 A. The DefenceCare website.
37
38 Q. You set that up, did you?
39 A. Yes.
40
41 Q. You then were aware, were you, that it had a donate
42 function on it?
43 A. Yes.
44
45 Q. Did you appreciate that that constituted fundraising?
46 A. Yes.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2820 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 Q. Did you give any thought in the setting up of the
2 website, as to the way in which it would work, whether it
3 would be compliant with the Charitable Fundraising Act?
4 A. Yes.
5
6 Q. What did you understand would happen to the money when
7 a member of the public donated it?
8 A. The money would - there were two ways to donate.
9 One was automatically via the website which went through
10 to, I understand, an eWAY system, and that was looked after
11 by Ms Mulliner and the finance area, so the back-end of the
12 website. I understood that that payment gateway - the
13 money would go through the payment gateway and then would
14 be directed to the nominated WBI account that the finance
15 department provided to us. Then that money would be
16 accounted for in the finance system. There was an
17 automatic receipt issued if you donated online, but then
18 the finance area would also provide us with receipts and we
19 could write a thank you letter to the donor.
20
21 Q. With the money that came in, you mentioned an eWAY
22 platform. Did that mean that there was an external
23 provider or supplier that was involved in the process?
24 A. Yes.
25
26 Q. Did that provider take money out of the donation?
27 A. I'm sorry?
28
29 Q. How was that supplier or provider paid?
30 A. I don't know that. That was a matter for RSL (NSW)
31 finance.
32
33 Q. Am I right that when you set the process up, you knew
34 that the money would go somewhere, but you didn't know how
35 much would actually end up in the account; is that right?
36 A. I didn't have oversight of that, I'm sorry, no.
37
38 Q. Am I right that you did not give consideration as to
39 whether the full amount would go into a bank account before
40 expenses were taken out or whether, in fact, only an amount
41 would go into a bank account after expenses had been taken
42 out?
43 A. That was not something I had responsibility for, I'm
44 sorry.
45
46 Q. In setting up the website, did you give any
47 consideration to that issue?
.13/10/2017 (25) 2821 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 A. Personally, no.
2
3 Q. Are you aware, at least now, the
4 Charitable Fundraising Act imposes certain requirements
5 about gross proceeds of fundraising going into bank
6 accounts?
7 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.
8
9 Q. You would see, would you not, at least now, in setting
10 up a website, that that's a matter you would need to give
11 consideration to, correct?
12 A. Yes, in the finance area absolutely I would give
13 consideration to.
14
15 Q. It appears that when you set up the website you did
16 not give consideration to the finance aspects and whether
17 they complied with the Charitable Fundraising Act; is that
18 right?
19 A. As I understood, it was not my responsibility to give
20 the consideration. The eWAY portion of the website was
21 handled by a company called Cornerstone and that was
22 handled - that part of the exercise was dealt with by
23 RSL (NSW) Finance.
24
25 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. You're just being asked now that
26 you know what you know, would you not give consideration to
27 that aspect of the requirements when you set up a website?
28 A. Yes.
29
30 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, thank you. Yes, thank you,
31 Mr Cheshire?
32
33 MR CHESHIRE: Q. The website that you set up is a
34 website that's available throughout Australia; correct?
35 A. Yes.
36
37 Q. You are aware that the Charitable Fundraising Act is
38 an Act that applies in New South Wales; correct?
39 A. Yes.
40
41 Q. And, indeed, there are licensing requirements in some
42 of the other States and Territories in Australia; correct?
43 A. Yes.
44
45 Q. When you set up the website, did you give any
46 consideration as to whether that would mean that you would
47 need to have licences or authorities in any other State or
.13/10/2017 (25) 2822 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 Territory?
2 A. Yes, we did. Over a period of time we started to
3 think about the impact of that.
4
5 Q. So that was after the website was set up; is that
6 right?
7 A. Yes, it was after.
8
9 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. When was that?
10 A. Sorry?
11
12 Q. When was that?
13 A. When was the website set up --
14
15 Q. No.
16 A. -- or when did we give consideration to it?
17
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. It wasn't long after the website was set up. I'm
20 trying to remember.
21
22 Q. Just pause there and think about it.
23 A. I think Mr Luong was still there, so it would have
24 been probably early 2013.
25
26 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you.
27
28 MR CHESHIRE: Q. What was the result of that? Did you
29 then go and seek licences or authorities in other States
30 and Territories?
31 A. I asked Ms Mulliner about whether WBI had licences in
32 other States and Territories. She explained that the
33 organisation didn't, and I asked if I could get them and
34 she said yes.
35
36 Q. And so did you?
37 A. Yes.
38
39 Q. WBI currently has, as you understand it, authorities
40 or licences in all of the other States and Territories
41 insofar as they exist; is that right?
42 A. It needs to, yes.
43
44 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Are they current?
45 A. Yes, they are.
46
47 Q. Are they being used for fundraising?
.13/10/2017 (25) 2823 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 A. I'm not sure we get many donations from interstate.
2 The licences are current, but I can't recall many
3 donations. There would be some from interstate. So,
4 insofar as that, yes, they would be being used to
5 fundraise.
6
7 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you.
8
9 MR CHESHIRE: Q. WBI is currently not fundraising in
10 New South Wales; correct?
11 A. That's right.
12
13 Q. Is WBI currently fundraising outside of New South
14 Wales?
15 A. Not that I know of, no.
16
17 Q. You're aware that there are other RSL entities in
18 other States and Territories in Australia; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. Such as State Branches of the RSL; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23
24 Q. Is there any agreement or understanding between the
25 various States and Territories as to where you will or
26 won't fundraise?
27 A. Not that I'm aware of. There may be.
28
29 Q. You mentioned the Anzac Day and the Poppy Day appeals
30 that are conducted by WBI. As I understand it, WBI
31 conducts those appeals in New South Wales; correct?
32 A. Yes.
33
34 Q. WBI does not go and do an Anzac Day Appeal or a Poppy
35 Day Appeal in Western Australia; correct?
36 A. No.
37
38 Q. Is that right?
39 A. No, that's right. Sorry, that's right.
40
41 Q. Is there anything that would stop it doing that?
42 A. We have a licence. No, I'm not sure there's anything
43 that would stop it. Legally, do you mean?
44
45 Q. Or in practice, is there any understanding or any
46 agreement between the various States and Territories?
47 A. Not that I know of. There's - not that I know of and
.13/10/2017 (25) 2824 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 understand.
2
3 Q. You are aware, aren't you, that organisations from
4 other States fundraise in New South Wales?
5
6 PUBLIC INQUIRER: RSL organisations.
7
8 MR CHESHIRE: Q. RSL organisations.
9 A. Yes.
10
11 Q. You are aware, for instance, of what is called the Art
12 Fund; correct?
13
14 PUBLIC INQUIRER: The Art Union.
15
16 MR CHESHIRE: Q. I beg your pardon, the Art Union.
17 A. Yes.
18
19 Q. Which is part of the RSL Queensland?
20 A. Yes.
21
22 Q. You are aware that that fundraises in New South Wales?
23 A. Yes.
24
25 Q. Would it be right that, to your understanding, since
26 WBI has ceased fundraising, the Art Union has conducted
27 more fundraising in New South Wales?
28 A. I don't know, sorry.
29
30 Q. You're not aware of that?
31 A. No.
32
33 Q. Are you aware of any discussions between the various
34 States and Territories following WBI ceasing to fundraise
35 in New South Wales where somebody else has said, "Well,
36 we'll come in and take up the slack"?
37 A. No. No. I have had - would you like me to explain
38 discussions with RSL Victoria?
39
40 Q. Yes.
41 A. RSL Victoria normally coordinates the Poppy Appeal and
42 the Anzac Appeal nationally. We have indicated - I told
43 RSL Victoria that we are not fundraising and that - so, WBI
44 is not fundraising, and that means that the Poppy and the
45 Anzac Appeals can't be run in New South Wales under WBI's
46 fundraising authority. He had mentioned that RSL Victoria
47 were looking to getting a fundraising authority in
.13/10/2017 (25) 2825 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 New South Wales, because I also mentioned to him I was
2 concerned about the Poppy Appeal website and the Anzac
3 Appeal website, as it did mention that donations - I'm not
4 sure it was clear, but there was a mention of WBI and
5 I explained that he needed to take that down.
6
7 Q. Am I right that RLS Victoria has an Anzac Day and
8 Poppy Day website; is that correct?
9 A. They do. I'm not sure it is up, though, at the
10 moment.
11
12 Q. Your concern was that somewhere on that website it
13 mentioned WBI and you were concerned that that was
14 misleading because WBI wasn't currently fundraising for
15 those appeals; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17
18 Q. Poppy Day is coming up soon; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. To your understanding, is RSL Victoria looking to
22 carry out fundraising for Poppy Day in New South Wales?
23 A. No, it's my understanding they're not.
24
25 Q. What about any of the other States and Territories?
26 A. I don't know.
27
28 Q. You have no awareness of that at all?
29 A. No, whether they're fundraising in New South Wales, do
30 you mean?
31
32 Q. Yes. Is anybody intending to fundraise for Poppy Day
33 in New South Wales to your understanding?
34 A. I don't know.
35
36 Q. Although you did not have access to the financial
37 records of WBI, you would have seen, am I right, the
38 financial statements of WBI?
39 A. The audited financial statements?
40
41 Q. Yes.
42 A. The audited ones? At times, yes.
43
44 Q. Do you recall that there was a note in those financial
45 statements, at least prior to 2014, that WBI did not engage
46 in any fundraising appeals or activities?
47 A. I only found that out in preparation for the Inquiry
.13/10/2017 (25) 2826 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 when I read the notes to those accounts.
2
3 Q. Your view now is that those statements were wrong;
4 correct?
5 A. Yes.
6
7 Q. You simply didn't notice that at the time?
8 A. I did not read the notes to the accounts for the prior
9 years to 2015 until I prepared for the Inquiry.
10
11 Q. Am I right that you don't recall any discussions with
12 anybody about the issue of whether WBI was or was not
13 fundraising?
14 A. Not that I was involved in.
15
16 Q. You mentioned Mr Luong was then succeeded by
17 Ms Rocchi?
18 A. Ms Rocchi.
19
20 Q. When did she take over?
21 A. Approximately early 2014.
22
23 Q. At that time, the Anzac Day and Poppy Day appeals were
24 not being carried out by WBI; is that right?
25 A. No, they weren't.
26
27 Q. Am I right that Mr Luong took over the appeals that
28 were being carried out at that time; correct?
29 A. Ms Rocchi - sorry?
30
31 Q. Mr Luong was responsible initially for all of the
32 appeals that were being carried out by WBI; correct?
33 A. By DefenceCare.
34
35 Q. By DefenceCare. Ms Rocchi then took over all of the
36 appeals that were carried out by DefenceCare; is that
37 right?
38 A. Yes.
39
40 Q. The Anzac Day Appeal and the Poppy Day Appeal, WBI
41 took over in 2014 or 2015; correct?
42 A. Mid-2014, I understand.
43
44 Q. Who then took over responsibility for those appeals
45 when WBI took them over?
46 A. I understand there was a campaign manager, Ms Palmer,
47 and an Appeals Committee.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2827 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1
2 Q. And the Appeals Committee was a committee of
3 RSL (NSW); correct?
4 A. I understand that. I've never seen documentation to
5 that effect.
6
7 Q. And you had no involvement with that committee;
8 correct?
9 A. No.
10
11 Q. Is that right?
12 A. Sorry, that's right. Sorry, yes.
13
14 Q. Ms Palmer - is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16
17 Q. Ms Palmer, was she employed by RSL (NSW)?
18 A. I didn't see her employment contract. I was of the
19 understanding she was employed by WBI.
20
21 Q. Did she report to you?
22 A. No.
23
24 Q. Who did she report to?
25 A. I understand it changed. My initial understanding was
26 Ms Mulliner or Mr Perrin, I'm not sure.
27
28 Q. Am I right, then, that when WBI took over the
29 Anzac Day Appeal and the Poppy Day Appeal, it appears that
30 they were treated differently to the other appeals that
31 DefenceCare was carrying out?
32 A. It appears that way.
33
34 Q. And to your understanding, the Poppy Day Appeal and
35 Anzac Day Appeal was that being carried out by DefenceCare
36 or WBI?
37 A. WBI, not DefenceCare.
38
39 Q. When you say by WBI, presumably not by RSL Active; is
40 that right?
41 A. No, not RSL Active.
42
43 Q. To your understanding, was the Poppy Day Appeal and
44 the Anzac Day Appeal really being carried out by RSL (NSW)
45 but in the name of WBI?
46 A. I don't have enough knowledge to answer that
47 correctly - to answer that with a "yes", I'm sorry.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2828 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1
2 Q. Is it right then effectively you had no involvement
3 with the Poppy Day Appeal and the Anzac Day Appeal until at
4 least earlier this year?
5 A. That's right, until - sorry, no, until August,
6 approximately August 2016.
7
8 Q. What happened then?
9 A. The Trustees asked me would I take over looking after
10 the appeals.
11
12 Q. When you say "the appeals", you mean those two
13 appeals; is that right?
14 A. Sorry, the Anzac Appeal and the Poppy Appeal.
15
16 Q. So DefenceCare had always had responsible for the
17 fundraising activities of WBI, excluding the Anzac Day
18 Appeal and the Poppy Day Appeal?
19 A. I was not aware of anything else other than the small
20 fundraises we ran on the website. However, I believe that
21 there were donations to RSL Active, and DefenceCare was not
22 involved in those.
23
24 MR CHESHIRE: Is that a convenient time?
25
26 PUBLIC INQUIRER: It is. We're going to take a short
27 break, if you'd like to leave the witness box, and I'll
28 resume at 10 to 12.
29
30 Yes, I will adjourn until then, thank you.
31
32 SHORT ADJOURNMENT
33
34 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, thank you. Just before you come
35 back into the witness box, Mr Herzfeld, this matter of the
36 Trustees is worrying me.
37
38 MR HERZFELD: The objects?
39
40 PUBLIC INQUIRER: The breach.
41
42 MR HERZFELD: Yes.
43
44 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Are you able to say whether anything has
45 happened in respect of seeking either directions from the
46 court or notifying the court?
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2829 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 MR HERZFELD: All I can say is what is in the statement as
2 to the steps and what was considered and then what didn't
3 happen and then obviously there's then the --
4
5 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Has the court been approached?
6
7 MR HERZFELD: No. Would you just excuse me for a moment?
8
9 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, of course.
10
11 MR HERZFELD: You will have seen in the statement that
12 there was contemplated applying to the court for a cy pres
13 scheme. I apprehend what you're asking me is a slightly
14 different question.
15
16 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Section 63.
17
18 MR HERZFELD: I understand that there has not been any
19 application to the court for advice.
20
21 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Or, alternatively, some remedial
22 situation for the Trustees presently. I don't know that
23 the actual provision of services outside the objects of the
24 trust is happening, and I'm not going to explore that with
25 you, but I'm just saying to you that it is concerning me
26 that I'm now aware that there is a probability, a high
27 probability that that is happening and, really, endorsing
28 steps to be taken very urgently in respect of that aspect.
29
30 MR HERZFELD: I understand. There is obviously some -
31 I think Ms Collins has already mentioned it - broader
32 process about what may happen to remedy that.
33
34 PUBLIC INQUIRER: It doesn't matter, Mr Herzfeld.
35
36 MR HERZFELD: My point is that it is not that it is just
37 being ignored, but I understand what you are putting to me.
38
39 PUBLIC INQUIRER: I'm saying that the Trustees appear to
40 be in breach of trust, as I sit here and as I've been told
41 today, and that is what I'm referring to. Having now been
42 given that evidence on oath, it does seem to me that
43 really, really urgent consideration should be given to
44 rectifying, either stopping the provision of the services
45 until it can be clear that there will be no breach by the
46 Trustees, or, alternatively, seeking some assistance from
47 the Supreme Court.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2830 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1
2 MR HERZFELD: I understand what has been put to me.
3
4 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you. Come back into the witness
5 box, please. Yes, thank you, Ms Collins.
6
7 Yes, Mr Cheshire.
8
9 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you.
10
11 Q. Ms Collins, I asked you about the development of the
12 website. Who was involved in that process with you?
13 A. Mr Luong, and in terms of the payment gateway,
14 I believe we would have asked Ms Mulliner.
15
16 Q. You gave some evidence before morning tea about you
17 believing that somebody reported to Mr Perrin. Mr Perrin
18 was one of the Trustees of WBI; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. But he was also Chief Executive Officer of RSL (NSW)?
22 A. Yes.
23
24 Q. You've given evidence about how the financial side of
25 WBI was effectively outsourced to RSL (NSW)?
26 A. Yes.
27
28 Q. To your understanding, did Mr Perrin have any
29 involvement with WBI by virtue of his RSL (NSW) role?
30 A. I'm not sure I would know that.
31
32 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Did he communicate with you as
33 Chief Executive Officer of RSL (NSW) from time to time or
34 not?
35 A. No, not really.
36
37 MR CHESHIRE: Q. What dealings did you have with the
38 Trustees in WBI?
39 A. I attended a monthly meeting of the Trust. There were
40 occasions - I was asked if I needed to see anyone during
41 the month about an urgent matter, that I should first
42 approach Mr Perrin because he was in the building. There
43 were occasional meetings with Mr Perrin. Then, if there
44 was something outside my delegation, I would often email
45 all three Trustees.
46
47 Q. Am I right that your first port of call was often
.13/10/2017 (25) 2831 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 Mr Perrin because he was in the building; is that right?
2 A. They asked me to see Mr Perrin, yes, if I needed to
3 speak to a Trustee.
4
5 Q. Did that happen on a regular basis?
6 A. Not regular.
7
8 Q. How often, on average?
9 A. Two to three times a month, perhaps a little more.
10
11 Q. What sort of issues did you discuss with Mr Perrin?
12 A. He would approve my expenditure, credit card
13 expenditure. If I needed to ask matters to Defence and
14 other ex-service organisations, I was new to the sector,
15 I would ask Mr Perrin about that and how he - suggestions
16 for how I would approach, for example, other ex-service
17 organisations and Defence matters.
18
19 He would occasionally refer people to DefenceCare.
20 He would come and see me if he was alerted to someone who
21 was in trouble. That was reasonably regular. They would
22 have been the sorts of matters.
23
24 Q. Mr Perrin wasn't involved, for instance, in the
25 development of the website; is that right?
26 A. I gave the Trustees all the information about the
27 website, including the content. In terms of approval of
28 the website, yes, the detail of the development, no.
29
30 Q. Do you recall that you - I'm not sure whether you
31 still have it, but you had a footer below your emails that
32 you sent out?
33 A. Yes.
34
35 Q. And the footer referred to DefenceCare being a charity
36 providing welfare and pension services; correct?
37 A. Yes.
38
39 Q. For current and ex-serving Defence Force personnel and
40 their families; correct?
41 A. Yes.
42
43 Q. And also referring to donations over $2 being tax
44 deductible; correct?
45 A. Yes.
46
47 Q. And making a real difference; correct?
.13/10/2017 (25) 2832 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 A. Yes.
2
3 Q. And then saying "Your support is appreciated";
4 correct?
5 A. Yes.
6
7 Q. Did it occur to you that the sending out of that email
8 invited people to donate to WBI?
9 A. Yes.
10
11 Q. And, therefore, did it occur to you that by sending
12 out that email, you, effectively, were engaging in
13 fundraising?
14 A. Yes.
15
16 Q. So you understood, did you, that that was part of
17 fundraising?
18 A. Yes.
19
20 Q. You considered, did you, the obligations of the
21 Charitable Fundraising Act in respect of donations that
22 might come in in response to your emails?
23 A. In terms of my responsibility, yes, my area of
24 responsibility, yes.
25
26 Q. The email that I just took you to referred to both
27 current and ex-servicemen; do you recall that?
28 A. Yes.
29
30 Q. It appears even though you were aware of the objects
31 being limited to ex-defence personnel, on your footer you
32 still included "current"; correct?
33 A. Yes. Could I explain?
34
35 Q. Yes.
36 A. When I raised the breach of the objects with the
37 Trustees in November 2012, I specifically asked -
38 I actually - sorry, I provided what I considered some
39 interim solutions while they sought to address the breach.
40 I suggested to them that we adopt these interim solutions
41 so that we were not in breach, because many of the current
42 serving people we were helping were actually on the way to
43 a medical discharge and the Trustees specifically told me
44 that I was not to implement those changes and that I was to
45 continue to operate as they had asked me to operate,
46 because the initial response they gave me was they were not
47 sure it was a breach.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2833 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1
2 Q. Did you discuss with anybody whether you should, in
3 fact, have the reference in your email footer to "current"
4 as well as "ex"?
5 A. I believe that was part of the instruction that they
6 gave me to continue to use "current". In fact, they
7 approved the brochure and the word "current".
8
9 Q. When you say "the brochure", do you mean a fundraising
10 brochure that is provided to the public?
11 A. A brochure about DefenceCare services. There actually
12 was only one small brochure. It did have a section on it
13 for donations, so, in my view it was fundraising, but it
14 also had information on the services.
15
16 Q. Is that a current brochure?
17 A. It has been changed slightly, but there is still a
18 brochure. We have now amended it and taken offer the
19 donation section because we are not fundraising.
20
21 Q. But that was only taken out recently during the course
22 of this Inquiry; is that right?
23 A. When we stopped fundraising.
24
25 Q. Putting that aside, that still refers to "current" as
26 well as "ex"?
27 A. Yes, it does.
28
29 Q. I think I'm right - one of the things that you looked
30 into in about August of last year was the appeals; correct?
31 A. Yes.
32
33 Q. There was a formal committee that was set up to do
34 that; is that correct?
35 A. Are you referring to the Operational Review Committee?
36
37 Q. If that's what it was called, then yes.
38 A. I recommended to the Trustees that we set up an
39 Operational Review Committee which was different to the
40 Appeals Committee that I understand ran before.
41
42 Q. As I recall your evidence, you weren't sure whether
43 the Appeals Committee was in fact part of WBI; correct?
44 A. I wasn't. I believe I was - I thought I was told it
45 was reported to State Council, but I did not see the
46 minutes, so I didn't see anything to show that, but I was
47 told that and I believed that at the time.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2834 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1
2 Q. Was the operational review committee then, as you saw
3 it, a way of getting these appeals back within WBI so that
4 there was no doubt about it?
5 A. No, it was more than that. That was one aspect that
6 bothered me. It was more than that. I had flagged, when
7 I first was asked to take over appeals, a number of
8 questions, early questions that bothered me, and I felt
9 that I didn't understand enough about appeals. They were
10 enough to flag concerns, but I wasn't aware enough about it
11 as to know how serious the concerns were. So my
12 recommendation, I think it was at the 30th or the 31st
13 August meeting, was that we should set up an Operational
14 Review Committee to truly understand how appeals operated
15 and investigate all aspects that may be of concern, but one
16 of those was governance, one of those things that I saw.
17
18 Q. In terms of the issues then that you had that led you
19 to recommend setting up this review, was one of those
20 issues that you were concerned there might well be breaches
21 of the Charitable Fundraising Act?
22 A. Yes.
23
24 Q. And also that there appeared to be no central system
25 by which all of the appeals were operated; is that right?
26 A. I'm not sure what you mean by "central system".
27
28 Q. If WBI or DefenceCare is running lots of appeals, they
29 should all be operated in a similar way?
30 A. Oh, yes, sorry, yes.
31
32 Q. And that appeared not to be the case; correct?
33 A. Yes.
34
35 Q. As the review was carried out, you became aware that
36 it appeared that there were issues of non-compliance;
37 correct?
38 A. Yes.
39
40 Q. One of those issues, I think, related to the
41 involvement of the sub-branches; correct?
42 A. Yes.
43
44 Q. To your understanding, the sub-branches were raising
45 money through the Anzac Day Appeal and the Poppy Day
46 Appeal; is that right?
47 A. Yes.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2835 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1
2 Q. When they were carrying out those appeals, were they
3 carried out, as you understood it, under their own
4 authority or using WBI's authority?
5 A. My view was it should have been under WBI's authority,
6 but that was one of the early issues that was of concern to
7 me, because there was seen to be a reliance on the
8 sub-branches charitable fundraising authority by virtue of
9 the way that the amount of money that was paid by the
10 sub-branches for the tokens, and I didn't understand why
11 that was the case.
12
13 Q. Why did you think it should be done under the WBI
14 authority?
15 A. I thought - well, the appeals were being run by WBI
16 and it was the fundraising authority, and I presumed the
17 sub-branches, this was back in August 2016, were operating
18 as volunteers for WBI.
19
20 Q. As you were looking into this, did the donations
21 appear to be flowing from the sub-branches into WBI or into
22 RSL (NSW), or both?
23 A. I'm just trying to - I became increasingly aware that
24 the money was - the net proceeds were being banked in,
25 I found out subsequently, an account, RSL Appeals (NSW),
26 which subsequently I found out is an account of WBI, but
27 I actually didn't see the bank account so I couldn't
28 actually tell you for certain that the money flowed there.
29 But I was of that understanding that the money was being
30 banked - the net proceeds of the appeals was being banked
31 in the RSL Appeals account, WBI, but initially the gross
32 was being paid into sub-branches's accounts. I'm sorry,
33 I'm not sure if I've explained that very well.
34
35 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. You have explained it very well.
36 A. Yes.
37
38 MR CHESHIRE: Q. You had a concern that the sub-branches
39 appeared to be taking out money before they passed it on to
40 WBI?
41 A. Yes.
42
43 Q. At this time, this is after Ms Mulliner has gone on
44 leave; correct?
45 A. Yes.
46
47 Q. And at this time you are taking back control of the
.13/10/2017 (25) 2836 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 financial affairs?
2 A. Starting to, yes.
3
4 Q. Then, as part of your review, did you not look into
5 the RSL's appeals bank account?
6 A. Not the bank account. Mr Umrigar was part of the
7 review committee and he brought the reports that he could.
8 He did not bring transaction records. He brought the
9 reports out of the financial system Sage that RSL (NSW) is
10 using, and was using then, were inadequate to truly
11 understand what was happening. I'm not sure - sorry, I'm
12 not sure that answered your question there.
13
14 Q. Is the effect of that that the operational review
15 revealed a number of deficiencies; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17
18 Q. But it didn't fully get to the bottom of everything
19 that was going on; is that right?
20 A. No, it didn't.
21
22 Q. When a decision then was made to proceed with the
23 Anzac Day Appeal in April of this year, as I understand it,
24 you had considerable issues at that time that you had
25 identified as to non-compliance; correct?
26 A. I had started to identify the issues of what
27 I believed were non-compliance, that I believe we needed to
28 get legal advice on. The preparation from the Anzac Appeal
29 started in approximately early January. In terms of time
30 frames, it probably was about the same time I was becoming
31 increasingly aware of compliance issues.
32
33 Q. I think your evidence is that, as you say, with the
34 benefit of hindsight, the compliance issues or breach
35 issues were such that you ought to have recommended
36 cancellation of the Anzac Appeal to the Trustees; correct?
37 A. With the knowledge I have now, yes.
38
39 Q. After the Anzac Appeal, in May, there was an
40 application for a further fundraising authority; correct?
41 A. Yes.
42
43 Q. In that WBI's authority was coming up for renewal;
44 correct?
45 A. Yes.
46
47 Q. Given the issues of breach that you had identified at
.13/10/2017 (25) 2837 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 that stage, why was a decision taken to proceed with the
2 application?
3 A. I'm not 100 per cent sure in terms of the issues that
4 I actually was fully across sufficient of the issues to be
5 able to form a full view as to whether - as to the extent
6 of the issues and also the potential remedies for the
7 issues.
8
9 Q. Am I right that the compliance review, I think, was
10 commenced in August of last year; is that right?
11 A. It was an operational review.
12
13 Q. The operational review. In terms of getting to the
14 bottom of what, in fact, was going on, do you feel that
15 you've got to the bottom of it now?
16 A. Yes.
17
18 Q. May I take it from the timetable of applying in May,
19 that that is a a view that you've only come to the last
20 month or so?
21 A. I would say around about by the end of July I think
22 I felt fully across the issues. One of the last issues
23 came about in July.
24
25 Q. And at that stage --
26 A. End of July, August, sorry. Sorry.
27
28 Q. Then, at that stage, a decision was made to suspend
29 fundraising activities; correct?
30 A. Yes.
31
32 Q. Was that your decision or the Trustees's decision?
33 A. I made that decision and immediately emailed the
34 Trustees.
35
36 Q. In terms of actioning it, was it your decision that
37 you informed them about, or was it a recommendation to
38 them?
39 A. I informed them about it.
40
41 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Can I just clarify something
42 because of other material that has been received in the
43 Inquiry. I apprehended that what had happened is that
44 Fair Trading had communicated with you and advised you that
45 you were not able to fundraise while the fundraising
46 authority was not extant; is that right?
47 A. Yes, that's right.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2838 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1
2 Q. So, as a result of that communication, there was the
3 suspension; is that right?
4 A. That's right, yes.
5
6 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, thank you. Yes, Mr Cheshire.
7
8 MR CHESHIRE: Q. As I understand it, you understand the
9 position to be that fair trading has not yet made a
10 decision; correct?
11 A. We've received correspondence from Fair Trading that
12 I have forwarded on to the Trustees for their
13 consideration, that lists certain requirements that now
14 need to be met.
15
16 Q. That was the letter of 22 September; is that correct?
17 A. I'm not sure of the date.
18
19 Q. Would you look at paragraph 226 of your statement.
20 A. Oh, yes. Yes.
21
22 Q. That's the letter to which you refer?
23 A. Yes.
24
25 Q. As at today's date, is it right that WBI has not yet
26 provided the various confirmations that Fair Trading have
27 sought?
28 A. No, not that I know of.
29
30 Q. To your understanding, as and when that information is
31 provided to Fair Trading, if further authority is granted,
32 then it would be the intention of WBI to resume
33 fundraising; is that right?
34 A. No, that would be a decision for the Trustees. It's
35 not something that will necessarily happen.
36
37 Q. Do you have any understanding of whether that is the
38 current intention of WBI?
39 A. No, I believe the Trustees are looking at a number of
40 options, one of which is to not fundraise.
41
42 Q. When you say looking at a number of options, have they
43 had discussions with you about those options?
44 A. I've had some input.
45
46 Q. And what options are being discussed?
47 A. I believe there are a number of options relating to
.13/10/2017 (25) 2839 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 the structure of RSL (NSW) and its entities in total.
2
3 Q. Yes. What options have been discussed with you?
4 A. The possibility of WBI not continuing as a trust and
5 potentially application being made to the court for WBI not
6 to continue and for DefenceCare to move to potentially
7 another entity, but I understand it is only discussions at
8 this stage.
9
10 Q. Is that an option with which you would agree or
11 disagree?
12 A. Depending on the detail. I think the services that
13 DefenceCare provides are absolutely invaluable and are in
14 incredibly high demand. It would be my hope that the
15 services that have been established would continue. If
16 there was a vehicle that would enable it to continue and to
17 be able to fill the demand, it would be infinitely
18 preferable. At the moment, DefenceCare - we are literally
19 run off our feet in terms of the number of calls and we
20 can't meet the demand. I would truly love to see the
21 services, the really good work that DefenceCare does,
22 continue. I don't think it matters necessarily what legal
23 entity. If there's a better way and a better funding
24 model, I think that would be excellent.
25
26 Q. The issue of the objects that I've asked you about, is
27 that a factor in setting out DefenceCare in a different
28 organisation?
29 A. That would be a matter for the Trustees.
30
31 Q. When I asked you as to whether you thought it would be
32 a good thing, you said it wouldn't matter where it was
33 done?
34 A. Yes.
35
36 Q. Am I right that if it was done in a different entity
37 that had objects that extended to current service
38 personnel, that would at least remove that problem of WBI
39 being in breach?
40 A. It would. It would.
41
42 Q. Had that occurred to you before?
43 A. Yes, in November 2012 I recommended to the Trustees
44 that they consider setting up a new legal entity, a new
45 charity, and I think I even suggested a company called
46 DefenceCare Limited and to wind down WBI.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2840 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 Q. As you understand, when you say to "wind down WBI", is
2 it your understanding that the fundraising activities would
3 go to wherever DefenceCare goes?
4 A. That's if it was to be a charitable entity that
5 required fundraising to sustain itself. Would you like me
6 to explain a bit about that?
7
8 Q. Yes, please.
9 A. DefenceCare is a professional service model with
10 professional services. I find that in those
11 instances - and my background is from a charity when you're
12 providing professional services, there are alternate income
13 options, and one of those is grants. There are a
14 considerable number of bodies that are willing to offer
15 grants for the delivery of services.
16
17 We also at DefenceCare tendered for the delivery of a
18 pilot peer to peer support program. We tendered with the
19 DVA and we were successful with that tender. That's
20 another source of income. And it was actually - I'm a
21 believer, very strongly, of the importance of charities
22 having a sustainable income because of the value of their
23 services. I actually had raised on a number of occasions
24 with the Trustees potentially establishing a business that
25 could fund DefenceCare so that it did not need to rely on
26 donations, because we were so struggling with the demand
27 and trying to meet that demand.
28
29 Q. What business did you have in mind setting up to fund
30 DefenceCare?
31 A. A funeral service, because we were asked to - we had a
32 lot of clients, veterans who had no family left and no-one
33 to pay for the funeral, or the significant funeral costs
34 were actually quite devastating to many of the families.
35 We were already providing significant assistance to meet
36 the hardship of some families. I believed that potentially
37 that may be a service we could provide that could possibly
38 earn some income and feed into DefenceCare or WBI.
39
40 Q. Am I right that in terms of the sources of income that
41 you envisage as being realistic for DefenceCare, one of
42 them is to have a business model where the business
43 supports DefenceCare, other one of which is to have grants
44 supporting DefenceCare, and another one of which is to have
45 donations. Do you see those three as being exclusive or do
46 you see it being realistic to either have a combination of
47 two of them or all three?
.13/10/2017 (25) 2841 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 A. I think you can have all three. Certainly a lot of
2 charities do have all three. The previous organisation
3 I worked for, we were government funded, and we also had a
4 significant number of grants. That was a program
5 I initiated. We also had charitable fundraising as well,
6 but the charitable fundraising was heavily regulated and we
7 had a compliance officer - we ran Charity Housie and
8 clothing collection bins. They weren't part of my
9 responsibility, except the Charity Housie in the last
10 couple of years which was run by a compliance officer.
11 I certainly believed that it is a sustainable model, and a
12 number of charities do run business operations.
13
14 I also for the previous charity bought a long day care
15 centre. We were in the children's learning area and the
16 profits from the long day care centre supported the
17 charitable work of the organisation.
18
19 Q. This Inquiry has heard evidence about the potential
20 for there to be at least a tension between business, on the
21 one hand, and benevolence on the other, in that if you have
22 a business model, even a charitable business, there is a
23 temptation to use profits to put back into the business to
24 make the business more profitable, which is not necessarily
25 the ideal model of supporting the benevolent side. Is that
26 something which impacts upon what you've just said?
27 A. I don't believe so. I don't believe that you need to
28 put profits back into the business. If the profits of the
29 business are to support the charitable purpose, that's
30 where they should go. I don't necessarily think you need
31 to put profits back into the business.
32
33 Q. Am I right, your view is that as long as the business
34 is sufficiently established and big to support itself, then
35 one doesn't need to keep growing that business; is that
36 right?
37 A. I don't think you need to. I think it depends on the
38 aims and objects of the charity and the needs of the
39 charity and the services of the charity. It may be that
40 some charities decide that they need to grow the business
41 to further the charitable purpose, but ultimately the
42 business is there for the charitable purpose.
43
44 Q. If DefenceCare then is attached to a business, do you
45 see DefenceCare as running its own fundraising or
46 fundraising being dealt with somewhere else?
47 A. That would, I guess, be a matter for how it's
.13/10/2017 (25) 2842 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 structured. When you have a charity, I think you
2 inevitably attract people who would like to donate.
3 I think it really depends on whether, one, you need the
4 donation; whether you want to get a charitable fundraising
5 licence. I think you can be a charity without doing
6 fundraising. I don't think you necessarily have to do
7 fundraising. It does come about that people often want to
8 donate because you are undergoing charitable work. I think
9 it depends on the situation. I think you've just got to be
10 very aware of where your income comes from and how you're
11 structured. I don't necessarily think there's a hard and
12 fast "yes" or "no".
13
14 Q. In relation to WBI, one of the things that I think you
15 talk about is the benefit of the association with the
16 various RSL entities; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18
19 Q. But, at the same time, you also talk about
20 endeavouring to treat WBI and RSL (NSW) as separate
21 entities; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23
24 Q. I think part of your role, part of what you've been
25 doing in the last year or so, is to achieve some form of
26 separation, for instance, with the financial affairs to
27 ensure that they come back to WBI rather than stay with
28 RSL (NSW); correct?
29 A. Yes.
30
31 Q. In this business model that you have raised the
32 possibility for with WBI going forward, or DefenceCare
33 going forward, how does that, then, fit in with RSL (NSW)?
34 Is it your view that the two should proceed together or
35 that there should be some separation?
36 A. I think the legal entities' governance needs to be
37 well managed and appropriate. Whether there's separation,
38 I guess, will depend on where DefenceCare resides
39 ultimately, what legal entity it is a part of, if it is not
40 a part of - if it is not a separate legal entity in and of
41 itself. I think whatever combination is decided upon by
42 RSL (NSW) State Council, and ultimately the Trustees, needs
43 to be done with the utmost care and the utmost
44 appropriateness of governance. What that is and how that
45 comes about, I'm sure I will have input, but ultimately,
46 obviously, it's not my decision.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2843 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 Q. But in terms of where one puts DefenceCare, for
2 instance, would it be your view that DefenceCare could,
3 effectively, be run by RSL (NSW)?
4 A. It is in other States. That is a model where the
5 services provided by RSL - similar services, claims and
6 advocacy and welfare - are actually part of the RSL State
7 Branch in other States. I don't know about every state but
8 certainly some other States such as Victoria and
9 Queensland. I believe, or I was told when I first joined
10 the organisation, that one of the reasons that WBI was set
11 up was related to the Constitution and the statute that
12 governed RSL (NSW), although I haven't investigated it, but
13 I understand the issue - I was told the issue was that
14 RSL (NSW) wanted to provide additional services to
15 non-members, to veterans who were non-members, and that,
16 I believe, was not possible through the current
17 Constitution and the statute, but I have not investigated
18 that, so I can not be sure of that.
19
20 I understand that's the reason they set up the trust.
21 If that changed, if it was possible to do it under
22 RSL (NSW), I don't see why that wouldn't be an option.
23
24 Q. That's not attaching it to a business model, is it?
25 A. No, that would be part of RSL (NSW).
26
27 Q. You wouldn't envisage attaching a business model then
28 to RSL (NSW); is that right?
29 A. You wouldn't need to, necessarily, although the
30 RSL (NSW) runs the Hyde Park Inn now.
31
32 Q. Also, with the fundraising, you're aware that the
33 sub-branches are answerable to the State Branch; correct?
34 A. I am aware, yes.
35
36 Q. And you're aware that a number of the sub-branches
37 have their own fundraising authorities; correct?
38 A. Yes.
39
40 Q. So it would seem to make some sense for RSL (NSW) to
41 continue to have some involvement in fundraising; correct?
42 A. Yes.
43
44 Q. And so that model would seem at least to have some
45 sense of fundraising being collected under RSL (NSW), would
46 that be --
47 A. It's possible. That's a possible model.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2844 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1
2 Q. You accept that certain possibilities have been
3 discussed with you. Is that one of the possibilities that
4 has been discussed with you?
5 A. No, I don't believe so, no, I don't recall that
6 particular model.
7
8 Q. What then are the possibilities that have been
9 discussed with you?
10 A. The potential for DefenceCare to be part of a
11 professional service organisation that comprises both the
12 LifeCare professional services and DefenceCare professional
13 services.
14
15 Q. You say DefenceCare. So DefenceCare to be moved over,
16 effectively, to LifeCare; correct?
17 A. Possibly.
18
19 Q. Would that leave anything left for WBI to do?
20 A. If you include RSL Active as part of DefenceCare, no,
21 it would not leave anything left.
22
23 Q. As you understand it, as least one of the suggestions
24 is to move across all of WBI to LifeCare?
25 A. That's a possibility.
26
27 Q. To your understanding, then, what happens to
28 fundraising on that scenario?
29 A. I don't know of RSL LifeCare's fundraising plans, I'm
30 sorry.
31
32 Q. What about fundraising within RSL (NSW), under that
33 model?
34 A. It could still continue, if it could be compliant.
35
36 Q. Is it your understanding that RSL (NSW) would wish to
37 continue fundraising?
38 A. I've heard the comment, but I'm not - I haven't been
39 involved in discussions. That would be a matter for
40 State Council.
41
42 Q. Am I right, you now have the position of General
43 Manager of both WBI and RSL (NSW)?
44 A. Yes.
45
46 Q. Do I take it from your answers that those proposals
47 are, as you understand it, nothing more than proposals
.13/10/2017 (25) 2845 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 being discussed at the present time; is that right?
2 A. I'm not up to date with where it's at, I'm sorry.
3
4 Q. To your understanding, they haven't got beyond that
5 stage; is that right?
6 A. I don't know, sorry.
7
8 Q. Have you seen a formal document that has details for
9 this proposal?
10 A. I haven't, no.
11
12 Q. You're not aware of any resolutions from any of the
13 entities for a particular proposal to proceed; is that
14 right?
15 A. No. No, I'm not aware.
16
17 Q. I showed you I think, or you referred to the letter
18 from Fair Trading of 22 September. Am I right that at the
19 moment WBI is not in a position to provide Fair Trading
20 with all of the information that it requested; is that
21 right?
22 A. Would you like me to --
23
24 Q. Please do. You have an advantage, can you remind me
25 of the paragraph?
26 A. I'm sorry, it is 226.
27
28 Q. 226. Thank you. Would you then go through each of
29 those?
30 A. Okay. In terms of (a), yes, the new financial and
31 payroll system is in place. We have done an internal
32 assessment and believe it meets regulatory requirements.
33 It has not been externally assessed, though. We have
34 appointed a new auditor and that auditor will be starting
35 on 23 October. That's a tentative date but we believe that
36 will eventuate. They will be auditing the 2016 and the
37 first half of the 2017 annual accounts, and that is
38 Ernst & Young.
39
40 We would be able to advise New South Wales Fair
41 Trading of any fundraising appeal we intend to conduct, but
42 at this stage we do not intend to conduct any fundraising
43 appeals, and then we could notify them of any instance of
44 non-compliance with the Act.
45
46 Q. Am I right that at least in respect of (c), that will
47 depend upon a decision being made as to the structure going
.13/10/2017 (25) 2846 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 forward?
2 A. I would imagine so. That may have some bearing on it,
3 but I can't be sure.
4
5 Q. Because if in fact all of the affairs of WBI are to be
6 transferred, for instance, to LifeCare, then WBI would not
7 be intending to conduct any further fundraising appeals;
8 correct?
9 A. I believe that would happen, yes.
10
11 Q. You started to become more involved and to look into
12 the affairs of WBI in the middle of last year, as I
13 understand it?
14 A. Yes.
15
16 Q. Since then, there are various steps that have been
17 taken to try to improve the way in which WBI operates;
18 correct?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. You have referred to Mr Luong who was replaced by
22 Ms Rocchi. Their title was, was it, marketing and
23 fundraising?
24 A. Mr Luong's title is marketing and fundraising and
25 I believe we made it fundraising and marketing for
26 Ms Rocchi.
27
28 Q. Is Ms Rocchi still there?
29 A. Yes.
30
31 Q. What's her current title?
32 A. Now it's fundraising manager.
33
34 Q. What's happened to marketing?
35 A. We split the function and we have a marketing
36 coordinator.
37
38 Q. Why was the function split?
39 A. I was asked to take over the appeals and because we
40 were starting to have numerous concerns over the appeals,
41 I had a number of discussions with Ms Rocchi, with
42 Ms Pinkstone, who was the marketing corporations manager
43 for RSL (NSW), and we decided over the course of
44 discussions and several meetings that it would be better to
45 separate the function.
46
47 Q. Ms Rocchi currently has responsibility for all
.13/10/2017 (25) 2847 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 fundraising within WBI; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3
4 Q. To whom does she report?
5 A. She reports directly to me. I'm sorry, her
6 responsibility started in January this year.
7
8 Q. And she reports to you?
9 A. Yes.
10
11 Q. As part of WBI taking back control of its financial
12 affairs from RSL (NSW), am I right that it employed some
13 full-time accounting staff?
14 A. Yes, we did.
15
16 Q. Initially two; is that correct?
17 A. It was initially going to be two, it is now three.
18
19 Q. When was the third person engaged?
20 A. From memory, around 21 or 22 September.
21
22 Q. Of this year?
23 A. This year.
24
25 Q. What are the titles or at least descriptions of what
26 each of those three does?
27 A. We have a finance manager. Our finance manager
28 started on 1 June and we employed an assistant accountant,
29 and the first assistant accountant might have been in July
30 some time, sorry, I'm just not clear on date. Then we
31 employed a second assistant accountant and they're
32 currently in the process of developing the appropriate
33 roles and responsibilities for each of the positions,
34 bearing in mind it's a team of three, so they need to make
35 sure that the appropriate responsibilities are segregated
36 and that we make sure that no one person has responsibility
37 for all things. We have to be very careful in the
38 delineation of those roles and responsibilities and we're
39 working on that at the moment in developing the appropriate
40 role.
41
42 Q. Am I right the two assistants report to the finance
43 manager?
44 A. They do.
45
46 Q. Who does the finance manager report?
47 A. The finance manager reports to Mr Nair, who is the
.13/10/2017 (25) 2848 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 chief operations officer, and he straddles both RSL (NSW)
2 and RSL WBI, as I do.
3
4 Q. To whom does Mr Nair report?
5 A. To me.
6
7 Q. Within both RSL (NSW) and WBI?
8 A. Yes.
9
10 Q. Mr Nair was engaged, I think, in about September 2016;
11 is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13
14 Q. He was engaged at that time as a specialist business
15 analyst; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17
18 Q. Initially, he was engaged on a one-year contract; is
19 that right?
20 A. I believe so, yes.
21
22 Q. Has that been renewed?
23 A. The contract has been developed as now and a new
24 contract will be given to Mr Nair in the coming week.
25
26 Q. I should have asked, as a specialist business analyst,
27 that's different from being chief operating officer, isn't
28 it?
29 A. It is, yes, I'm sorry.
30
31 Q. That was my fault. What did he do as specialist
32 business analyst?
33 A. He didn't report to me, that was in RSL (NSW). He was
34 brought on by Mr Kolomeitz, reporting directly to
35 Mr Kolomeitz. He didn't report to me.
36
37 Q. Do you know what he did?
38 A. Broadly?
39
40 Q. Yes.
41 A. Broadly, when the problems with the finances were
42 coming about, I suggested to Mr Kolomeitz that perhaps he'd
43 bring in someone such as a specialist business analyst
44 because I believe there needed to be a lot of repair work
45 done, and so as I understand he was brought into the
46 organisation to overview all the financial systems and
47 processes that were occurring in RSL (NSW) and to recommend
.13/10/2017 (25) 2849 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 repairing that. I do know that events that transpired
2 after he joined the organisation meant that he was involved
3 in organising the forensic audits. I'm not sure he had the
4 opportunity to perhaps do what he was brought in to do.
5 I also asked Mr Kolomeitz if I could engage - get Mr Nair's
6 help to rectify the financial issues that I was seeing with
7 WBI.
8
9 Q. Am I right that you understood that Mr Nair was
10 brought in to assist RSL (NSW); correct?
11 A. Yes.
12
13 Q. The task that he was given related to the finances of
14 RSL (NSW); correct?
15 A. Yes.
16
17 Q. At the same time you were taking over the finances of
18 WBI from RSL (NSW) - at about the same time?
19 A. Not taking over, but investigating and working out how
20 to better obtain financial reports.
21
22 Q. As part of that, you sought to have Mr Nair provide
23 input in relation to WBI; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25
26 Q. At some stage Mr Nair became involved in WBI, either
27 through that approach or becoming the COO. When did that
28 happen?
29 A. Sorry, which one? The getting involved with WBI or --
30
31 Q. Was its first involved with WBI when he became chief
32 operating officer?
33 A. No.
34
35 Q. When did he first become involved with WBI, then?
36 A. I believe it was probably around about October 2016.
37 I asked him for assistance with two matters: one was
38 potential modifications to the RSL (NSW) finance system so
39 that we could get appropriate reporting to the Trustees,
40 and the other was to do with the objects of WBI and to
41 source an alternate legal advice.
42
43 Q. Did Mr Nair assist with both of those tasks?
44 A. Yes.
45
46 Q. Then at some stage he became chief operating officer
47 of both organisations; is that right?
.13/10/2017 (25) 2850 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 A. Yes, recently.
2
3 Q. Was that at the same time as you became
4 General Manager of both?
5 A. Shortly after.
6
7 Q. Dealing with the financial system, that was the Sage
8 financial system; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10
11 Q. Was the financial system for RSL (NSW), the Sage
12 system, the same as for WBI?
13 A. WBI's financial system is called Microsoft Navision.
14
15 Q. Hang on.
16 A. Sorry.
17
18 Q. At the time when Mr Nair started looking at that
19 issue --
20 A. Sorry.
21
22 Q. -- were both being operated through Sage?
23 A. Yes, I believe so.
24
25 Q. Was it effectively one system being combined between
26 New South Wales and WBI?
27 A. I don't know that level of detail. I assumed so.
28
29 Q. Am I right that Mr Nair raised some issues, problems
30 with Sage; is that right?
31 A. Yes.
32
33 Q. He recommended some modifications; correct?
34 A. Yes.
35
36 Q. Those were not in fact adopted by RSL (NSW); is that
37 right?
38 A. That's right.
39
40 Q. WBI is currently not on Sage; is that right?
41 A. That's correct.
42
43 Q. So, at some stage, WBI changed or moved its financial
44 system from Sage to Navision; is that right?
45 A. Microsoft Navision, yes.
46
47 Q. Is that N-A-V-I-S-I-O-N?
.13/10/2017 (25) 2851 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 A. Yes.
2
3 Q. When did that happen?
4 A. Microsoft Navision came online on 1 August this year.
5
6 Q. When you say "came online", does that mean that
7 everything was transferred to it on that date?
8 A. Yes.
9
10 Q. So WBI now has its entire financial records on
11 Navision; correct?
12 A. Only backdated to a certain point, not historical
13 records.
14
15 Q. When you say "only backdated to a certain point", what
16 point is that?
17 A. I believe it's 2016.
18
19 Q. And so for --
20 A. I'm sorry, I might need to check that, I'm not
21 100 per cent certain.
22
23 Q. For records going back to 2012, 2013 or 2010, where
24 are those records?
25 A. They're still on Sage and prior to that I believe they
26 used a system called Coresoft.
27
28 Q. Are they, effectively, still held by RSL (NSW)?
29 A. We requested that the entire financial records be
30 handed over from RSL (NSW) to RSL WBI.
31
32 Q. Right. Did that happen?
33 A. I haven't had an update on that.
34
35 Q. Does WBI still have a Sage system?
36 A. WBI doesn't have a Sage system.
37
38 Q. If the records are held on Sage, how would they be
39 handed over to WBI?
40 A. That's a little bit beyond my technical expertise, but
41 I believe we would - sorry, it is a bit beyond my technical
42 expertise. I would need to get advice as to how that would
43 happen.
44
45 Q. At the moment your understanding is that WBI has its
46 own financial records available going back to 2016;
47 correct?
.13/10/2017 (25) 2852 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 A. Yes.
2
3 Q. Yes. But before that, you don't know what the current
4 position is; is that right?
5 A. No, I'm not 100 per cent sure that transfer has been
6 done yet. I believe we keep the files.
7
8 Q. Or indeed, as to how it is going to be done; is that
9 right?
10 A. I'm not across how it is going to be done yet.
11
12 Q. Are you able to assist as to why the change from
13 Navision to change to Sage or how that came about - sorry,
14 from Sage to Navision?
15 A. Oh, yes. In terms of the choice of the system
16 Navision, do you mean?
17
18 Q. Yes, why the change?
19 A. Why the change? Sage's reporting functionality was
20 very poor and very difficult to get the information we
21 needed to make sound decisions to understand where the
22 organisation was financially. The way it had been set up,
23 I understand, was inadequate and the choice of Navision,
24 I had used - transitioned my previous organisation to
25 Navision and it was a very flexible system that could cater
26 for ensuring moneys that were given to an organisation
27 could be expended and acquitted.
28
29 Mr Nair had come from Northcote and Northcote was also
30 using the Navision accounting system, so the choice was
31 made to use that accounting system, or the recommendation,
32 sorry, was made to the Trustees that that was the
33 accounting system and it had a considerable amount of
34 benefit for a charity.
35
36 Q. Is the payroll system operated through Navision?
37 A. No, the payroll system is - we use a system called
38 Aurion.
39
40 Q. When you say you "use", is that also a new payroll
41 system?
42 A. New to WBI, yes.
43
44 Q. How was WBI's payroll being dealt with until recently?
45 A. I'm sorry, RSL (NSW) did the payroll and I'm not
46 across their system.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2853 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 Q. Until recently, am I right that WBI's financial system
2 and its payroll system were being dealt with through
3 RSL (NSW)?
4 A. Yes.
5
6 Q. That new payroll system - which I think is Aurion?
7 A. Aurion.
8
9 Q. Came into force on 13 September; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11
12 Q. Was that due to, as you understand it, deficiencies in
13 the previous payroll system?
14 A. We made the recommendation to the Trustees that we
15 should move not only the finances but also the payroll and
16 the client management system as well, that it was better to
17 move the entire suite primarily because we wanted to move
18 to a Microsoft Office solution, but also because WBI was
19 using a part of the RSL's client relationship management
20 system, which was a Sage system, which had originally been
21 purchased, as I understand it, to cater for the RSL (NSW)'s
22 membership, which meant that it really wasn't - it was
23 modifiable to meet the client management needs of
24 DefenceCare, but it is very slow. It has very poor
25 reporting functionality and it requires a considerable
26 amount of re-entering data, so we recommended to the
27 Trustees that we move - change WBI over to an entire system
28 solution that would better cater for the needs of the
29 services of DefenceCare which involved providing financial
30 assistance.
31
32 Q. So that's, effectively, a movement of three systems;
33 is that right?
34 A. Yes.
35
36 Q. Client management, payroll, financial management?
37 A. Yes.
38
39 Q. Am I right that the last piece of the jigsaw was the
40 payroll system; is that right?
41 A. No, the client relationship - the client management
42 system is the last piece.
43
44 Q. Has that happened yet?
45 A. No, we have to get someone in to help us with scoping
46 that and we hope that will be all up and running by no
47 later that March next year.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2854 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1
2 Q. You talked about having all three systems on, I think
3 you said, a Microsoft platform?
4 A. A Microsoft Office platform, yes.
5
6 Q. So you see that there is an advantage in the three
7 systems working together; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9
10 Q. At least until some time after March of next year, you
11 won't know how successful in fact it has been; is that
12 right?
13 A. I think we're already seeing some success. I'm sorry,
14 Aurion is not a Microsoft office, I'm sorry. Aurion is not
15 part of the Microsoft Office platform, but it's a very
16 capable and very high quality payroll system.
17
18 Q. Does that interact with the other two systems or not?
19 A. Well, it interacts with Navision.
20
21 Q. Navision is the financial management system?
22 A. Yes.
23
24 Q. What is the new client management system going to be
25 called?
26 A. I'm not sure it has a name other than Microsoft CRM.
27 It may have a name I'm not aware of, but the at Microsoft
28 Office Suite CRM.
29
30 Q. In terms of the client management system and the
31 financial management system and how they work together,
32 that's something you won't know until March of next year;
33 is that correct?
34 A. We will need to work that out in terms of the
35 implementation.
36
37 Q. That will be after March of next year?
38 A. It will be progressive, but in terms of how it works
39 together - sorry, your question, yes, it will be after
40 March next year, sorry.
41
42 Q. When you say it will be progressive, it will be
43 progressive leading up to March of next year or progressive
44 from March next year?
45 A. No, leading up to. We hope that it will functional
46 from March next year.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2855 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 Q. From March next year, WBI should have all of its
2 systems in place as it wants it going forward; is that
3 right?
4 A. Yes.
5
6 Q. Those systems you perceive to have significant
7 advantages over the previous systems; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9
10 Q. RSL (NSW) is currently still using, effectively, the
11 old systems; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13
14 Q. Is there any plan that you're aware of to move over
15 the RSL (NSW) systems?
16 A. Yes.
17
18 Q. What stage is that at?
19 A. At the last finance and remuneration committee meeting
20 last week, we put up a proposal to move the RSL (NSW)
21 finances to Navision.
22
23 Q. But having its own Navision system or combined with
24 WBI?
25 A. Its own.
26
27 Q. If that is put into operation, when it that likely to
28 be achieved?
29 A. I'm just - we do I have a timetable, sorry. I'm just
30 trying to recall it. March next year.
31
32 Q. What about the client management system for RSL (NSW)?
33 A. We haven't as yet prioritised that. That would be a
34 lower priority to the financial system and the payroll
35 system.
36
37 Q. What about RSL (NSW)'s payroll system?
38 A. That will be, I would imagine, we are looking at
39 transitioning that to Aurion. I can't recall the date off
40 the top of my head as to our plan for that.
41
42 Q. Are we talking March of next year, June of next year?
43 A. Oh, everything finished - sorry, Navision and the
44 payroll system completed by June of next year.
45
46 Q. I think you said that Mr Nair has also conducted a
47 review of the Navision system; is that right?
.13/10/2017 (25) 2856 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 A. A review? Sorry, could you clarify "a review"?
2
3 Q. Has Mr Nair looked at the new financial management
4 system?
5 A. For WBI?
6
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. Yes, Mr Nair was involved in the implementation
9 process.
10
11 Q. Is Navision, as you understand it, set up to generate
12 records specifically limited to fundraising?
13 A. Yes, although - could I answer that with an
14 explanation?
15
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. I'm not 100 per cent sure a financial system alone can
18 meet the requirements of the Fundraising Act as I
19 understand them, and as a result of the learnings from this
20 journey. My belief is that the requirements of the Act,
21 the regulation and our authority, really need management
22 that includes both the financial system and the bank
23 accounts, and also the policies and procedures that
24 surround everything you do in terms of the transactions,
25 the accounts payable, receivable, et cetera. I believe it
26 needs to be a suite of things that one alone - I'm
27 struggling to find, with the way the current legislation is
28 and the regulations - to be able to implement the
29 appropriate compliance without taking into account more
30 than the financial system.
31
32 Q. That process of trying to work out precisely what you
33 need to achieve compliance, who is looking into that?
34 A. Mr Nair and the finance team are looking into that and
35 they are already at the stage of having implemented, along
36 with the bank accounts and the procedures and the setup of
37 Navision, a system whereby we believe it can now be fully
38 compliant with charitable fundraising legislation. There
39 are other aspects, however, that are of concern that we
40 will need to look at, certainly in coming weeks, and there
41 are aspects of the Charitable Fundraising Act legislation
42 such as items, such as what is a lawful expense and how we
43 review the expenses. So there are a number of questions
44 still to look at, but the basic structure and the basic
45 processes are already in place.
46
47 Q. On those questions, such as what is a lawful expense,
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1 have you been receiving legal advice?
2 A. Yes. We have been receiving legal advice for the past
3 not quite 12 months, possibly nine months, on all aspects
4 of compliance from a financial systems perspective, but
5 also with the policies and procedures, with how fundraising
6 is conducted by volunteers, quite overarching advice
7 related to a huge number of issues.
8
9 Q. Is that advice ongoing?
10 A. Yes.
11
12 Q. Who is that advice from?
13 A. Ashurst.
14
15 Q. Do you recall that earlier this year there were
16 reports that were obtained from Ernst & Young that revealed
17 certain deficiencies in the financials - for instance, the
18 bank accounts of RSL (NSW) and WBI?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. Am I right that the issue of financial compliance was
22 a matter that Ernst & Young were looking into; correct?
23 A. Financial compliance of WBI?
24
25 Q. Yes.
26 A. Yes.
27
28 Q. And also of RSL (NSW)?
29 A. Compliance of RSL (NSW)?
30
31 Q. Yes.
32 A. Sorry, in what --
33
34 Q. In respect of fundraising?
35 A. In respect of fundraising - I understood they did the
36 forensic audit of RSL (NSW), in terms of compliance of its
37 financial system. I know Ernst & Young has put a proposal
38 to the Trustees for the WBI financial system.
39
40 Q. Let's deal with --
41
42 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Perhaps we could do that at 2 o'clock.
43
44 MR CHESHIRE: Yes, Madam Inquirer.
45
46 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you, Ms Collins, would you like to
47 step down now and we will adjourn until 2pm. Yes, thank
.13/10/2017 (25) 2858 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 you.
2
3 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT
4
5 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, thank you. Come back into the
6 witness box, please, Ms Collins. Yes, Mr Cheshire.
7
8 MR CHESHIRE: Q. As I understand, Ms Collins, you are
9 aware that a number of reports have been prepared by
10 accountants in respect of WBI and RSL (NSW) over recent
11 years; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13
14 Q. For instance, you're aware of the 2015 Grant Thornton
15 review into expenses, particularly of the State President?
16 A. I am now, yes.
17
18 Q. You're aware that, as I understand it, steps have been
19 taken within RSL (NSW) to put in place, as I think you call
20 it, an expense limit matrix; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22
23 Q. Does that cover the matrix for all of the State
24 Councillors?
25 A. That particular matrix is for the State Councillors,
26 yes.
27
28 Q. Is there another matrix for the employees of
29 RSL (NSW)?
30 A. There will need to be as well. We have not yet got to
31 that.
32
33 Q. Does the State Councillors's matrix also encompass the
34 State President?
35 A. Yes. Could I just clarify that? We put that matrix
36 up to the finance and remuneration committee, but it still
37 has to go to State Council.
38
39 Q. Was it approved on 9 October?
40
41 PUBLIC INQUIRER: At the meeting?
42
43 MR CHESHIRE: Q. At the committee?
44 A. Was it approved? Sorry, the State expenses matrix?
45 Yes, they agreed with it, yes, but it will need to go to
46 State Council as well.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2859 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Yes, but it went to them presumably for
2 approval, is that right, to the committee?
3 A. Yes, it went to the committee.
4
5 Q. For approval?
6 A. I'm sorry, I'm struggling to recall whether it was for
7 recommendation or decision. No, when we put that matrix
8 up, the State Councillor expenditure matrix, it was for
9 discussion and the committee decided that they would take
10 it to the next State Council meeting.
11
12 Q. Are you telling the Madam Inquirer that in fact the
13 committee did not make any decision as to whether they
14 approved it or recommended it?
15 A. They agreed with it and will recommend it. They will
16 recommend it.
17
18 Q. When will that go to State Council?
19 A. The next State Council meeting is 19 October.
20
21 Q. Do you expect that that document will be put before
22 State Council on that date?
23 A. Yes.
24
25 Q. If it is approved, to your understanding, it will then
26 be in force; is that right?
27 A. Yes.
28
29 Q. What about in WBI, is there any similar exercise that
30 has been carried out?
31 A. In WBI, we have a delegation matrix that covers the
32 Trustees as well as the employees. In WBI, we had also
33 developed guidelines for expenditure for employees - this
34 was several months ago - to develop some more clarity
35 around guidelines for expenditure for employees. It is
36 slightly different.
37
38 Q. Do you still have a credit card?
39 A. I do.
40
41 Q. And that's a credit card that I asked about earlier
42 that is then billed to the Hyde Park Inn?
43 A. I understand that facility is still in the
44 Hyde Park Inn's name.
45
46 Q. Do you have any guidelines as to the amount that you
47 can spend on particular items?
.13/10/2017 (25) 2860 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 A. Well, I have an expenditure delegation, an overall
2 delegation, but not specific items, not at the moment.
3
4 Q. When you say a "delegation", what does the delegation
5 specify?
6 A. The delegation specifies an amount per approval that
7 I can approve, and on the credit card it is an expenditure
8 limit.
9
10 Q. What is that expenditure limit on your credit card?
11 A. The delegation I have is $10,000, although I believe
12 the credit card limit is still $5,000 which is the limit I
13 had on the credit card when I was in WBI.
14
15 Q. In terms, though, of individual items that you may use
16 the credit card for, do you have any guidelines or guidance
17 in that regard?
18 A. Yes, there's a credit card policy and that does list
19 the sorts of things - work-related expenditure that you can
20 put on the credit card.
21
22 Q. Things such as entertaining guests, is that a matter
23 that could come within the credit card policy?
24 A. Possibly, yes, it would, if it's work-related
25 expenditure.
26
27 Q. Does the policy have any limits for each item?
28 A. Not that I can recall.
29
30 Q. For instance, if you were taking a guest out for a
31 meal, is there anything that would indicate to you, other
32 than your common sense or your honesty, as to whether you
33 should spend $100 on dinner or $10,000 on dinner?
34 A. Well, if it's within WBI, yes, we have some guidelines
35 that indicate the approximate amounts that would be
36 reasonable for taking - if you were to take a guest out to
37 lunch.
38
39 Q. What I'm after is what form do those guidelines take
40 that you have within WBI?
41 A. Sorry, it's a one-page guidelines about appropriate
42 expenditure, how much - if you're taking a client out to
43 lunch, the types of things you would normally expend on
44 your credit card.
45
46 Q. That has dollar figures, does it, as to what would
47 ordinarily --
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Transcript produced by DTI
1 A. Yes, we actually put in some guidelines as to what we
2 thought would be appropriate.
3
4 Q. Your credit card statements for the work credit card,
5 how are they dealt with internally?
6 A. The Trustees approve those every month.
7
8 Q. When you say "approve them", are copies of your credit
9 card statements provided to the Trustees?
10 A. Yes, with all of the receipts.
11
12 Q. One of the other reports I think you are aware of is
13 an Ernst & Young report, in particular, that dealt with
14 issues of expenses in particular within RSL (NSW); correct?
15 A. Yes, I am now, yes.
16
17 Q. To your understanding, have the recommendations in
18 that Ernst & Young report been put in place in both
19 RSL (NSW) and WBI?
20 A. In terms of WBI, which I'm actually more familiar with
21 at the moment, many of the recommendations about
22 expenditure were not - things that were highlighted in that
23 report actually weren't happening in the area of WBI that
24 I controlled, but the transition to Navision with
25 appropriate accounting procedures and appropriate
26 delegation matrix, made sure - that transition made sure
27 that none of what had happened in the RSL (NSW) finance
28 area would be repeated in WBI.
29
30 Q. Am I right, from something you said there about
31 RSL (NSW), that at the moment you are still in the process
32 of familiarising yourself with the RSL (NSW) systems and
33 procedures?
34 A. Yes.
35
36 Q. You have given a lot of evidence about changes that
37 have taken place in WBI, but at the moment, am I right,
38 that you are not familiar with changes that have taken
39 place in RSL (NSW)?
40 A. I'm familiar with some.
41
42 Q. I think you've given evidence so far about the
43 engagement of Mr Nair?
44 A. Yes.
45
46 Q. The changing over of the financial management system
47 to Navision?
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1 A. Yes.
2
3 Q. And I think the involvement in Ernst & Young, which
4 I'm about to ask you about. Are there any other changes
5 within RSL (NSW) that you are aware of to address
6 deficiencies in that organisation?
7 A. Yes. I felt extremely uncomfortable with the approval
8 process of expenditure in RSL (NSW), when I started to
9 receive invoices and requests to approve certain items of
10 expenditure and I did not feel that I could see there was
11 sufficient checking, particularly checking against
12 contractual amounts - sorry, I did not feel that I could
13 see on the receipts and on the expenditures put to me for
14 approval that there was adequate checking. I could not
15 tell. So I asked Mr Nair to change the system and
16 introduce - pending the implementation of an expense
17 management system, which I'll address in a minute, to
18 change to a manual coversheet that forced a certain process
19 of checking of expenditure before it came to the ultimate
20 approver.
21
22 So, for example, was this contractual related
23 expenditure? Yes/no. If so, have you checked the contract
24 that it is an appropriate level of expenditure? Who has
25 checked off that the receipts were checked against, for
26 example, in a credit card, a credit card statement, and not
27 only who but the name. I could not understand the
28 signature, I could - I did not know who signed. When there
29 were some signatures, so I asked - I asked for the form to
30 include the name of the person and for two levels of
31 checking before it came to, for example, me. That's one
32 system I've introduced which is a manual system. We have
33 also approved the --
34
35 Q. Just stopping you there, is that system both within
36 RSL (NSW) and WBI?
37 A. No, WBI is using Navision and using a different system
38 now.
39
40 Q. So that's RSL (NSW)?
41 A. Yes, it is.
42
43 Q. You were about to say?
44 A. Yes. I have recently approved the implementation of
45 an expense management system called Concur.
46
47 Q. Would you spell that?
.13/10/2017 (25) 2863 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 A. C-O-N-C-U-R.
2
3 Q. Thank you.
4 A. I was originally wanting to implement that, but my
5 discussion with Mr Nair originally was that would follow
6 the implementation of Navision. However, when I started in
7 RSL (NSW) by the end of August, I was starting to get very
8 uncomfortable with the expense approval process, so we
9 implemented the coversheet, the manual system as an interim
10 measure and we brought forward the implementation of
11 Concur. That implementation will take eight weeks and that
12 will commence in the next couple of weeks.
13
14 I have introduced the entire organisation delegation
15 matrix including recently putting up a delegation matrix
16 and expansion of that delegation matrix for
17 State Councillor and we've introduced those
18 State Councillor expenditure guidelines in addition to
19 that. One of the things we have done with the delegation
20 matrix is make sure that it is shared with every single
21 member of the team. I personally sent an email out to - in
22 the RSL (NSW) to all members of RSL (NSW), with the
23 delegation matrix attached and to ask people to question,
24 question, question expenditure and ask if you're not sure
25 and to make sure that the delegation matrix was adhered to
26 at all times.
27
28 Q. That's within RSL (NSW)?
29 A. Yes. When the delegation matrix for WBI was approved,
30 I sent a similar email.
31
32 Q. One of the issues that I think you have become aware
33 of is the requirement for WBI to have three Trustees;
34 correct?
35 A. Yes.
36
37 Q. Does it currently have its third Trustee?
38 A. Someone has consented, but that needs to go to the
39 next Trustees meeting.
40
41 Q. To your you understand ending, when will that be?
42 A. The date was 18 October, but because of the
43 requirements of the Inquiry, we are now being looking at
44 trying to get an alternate date in early November.
45
46 Q. Is that Trustee an RSL (NSW) State Councillor?
47 A. No.
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1
2 Q. It is an independent external person?
3 A. No.
4
5 Q. Is there any reason why I shouldn't ask you who that
6 person is?
7
8 PUBLIC INQUIRER: You can ask that question and see if the
9 objection is taken.
10
11 MR CHESHIRE: Q. I will ask. Who is the person?
12 A. Her name is Ms Del Gaudry, and she's an RLS sub-branch
13 member.
14
15 Q. If she is appointed then there will be three Trustees;
16 is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18
19 Q. You give some evidence in your statement about
20 policies for dealing with conflicts of interest that you've
21 addressed within WBI; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23
24 Q. As I understand it, the conflicts of interest policy
25 has not yet been finalised; is that right?
26 A. That's right. There is a draft and that will be
27 finalised and put to the Trustees for the next Trustee
28 meeting.
29
30 Q. What about a conflicts of interest policy within
31 RSL (NSW)?
32 A. Yes, that was approved at a State Council meeting,
33 I think it might have been August - no, it might have been
34 by circular resolution.
35
36 Q. Are you able to say when that was? Was it in the last
37 week or so, the last month or so?
38 A. No, the last two months. I'm not exactly sure, I'm
39 sorry, the date escapes me.
40
41 Q. You understand that there is now a conflicts of
42 interest policy in place for RSL (NSW)?
43 A. Yes.
44
45 Q. Does that include a register of interests?
46 A. I understand there is a register of interest and that
47 is - I understand that because Jeff O'Brien, who is the
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Transcript produced by DTI
1 State Secretary - sorry, I found registers of pecuniary
2 interests of some of the State Councillors in the office
3 and I handed them to Jeff O'Brien because I understand he
4 has that information, but I have not seen the RSL (NSW)
5 register of pecuniary interests.
6
7 Q. Do you recall that in July of this year Ernst & Young
8 provided a report on the financial systems of RSL (NSW) and
9 WBI; correct?
10 A. I thought it was a report on expenditure.
11
12 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. No, this is the letter to Mr Nair
13 of 5 July?
14 A. Oh, sorry. Oh, yes, sorry, yes, I recall that.
15
16 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Is that right, Mr Cheshire?
17
18 MR CHESHIRE: Yes.
19
20 Q. Do you recall that that letter referred to
21 deficiencies, for instance, in the general ledger?
22 A. Yes.
23
24 Q. At that stage, your understanding was that Ernst &
25 Young had been retained to perform an analysis or a review
26 of the financial systems; correct?
27 A. My understanding was that Ernst & Young in that
28 letter - that was a proposal to review the financial
29 system of WBI -the donations, charitable moneys received
30 for the last 10 years, the income in and then how it had
31 been spent. Is that the correct letter?
32
33 Q. I'll show you the letter at Exhibit 16, tab 5.
34 A. Sorry if I haven't got the right letter.
35
36 Q. It is page 11, which is WBI.15.0000010. Do you have
37 that letter?
38 A. 5 July?
39
40 Q. Yes.
41 A. Page 11?
42
43 Q. Yes. In the bottom right-hand corner, page 11.
44 A. I've only got four pages.
45
46 Q. Do they have numbers in the bottom right-hand corner?
47 A. Oh, sorry, yes, I was looking at the top.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2866 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1
2 Q. Do you have page 11?
3 A. Yes.
4
5 Q. Do you see there a letter of 5 July?
6 A. Yes.
7
8 Q. You will see:
9
10 We confirm that Ernst & Young ... have been
11 engaged to perform forensic data extraction
12 services ...
13
14 Do you see that?
15 A. Yes.
16
17 Q. This may be what you were thinking of and the scope is
18 set out on page 12.
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. Then on page 13, there are the limitations on scope;
22 do you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24
25 Q. Do you see there the observations about the problems
26 with the general ledger; correct?
27 A. Yes.
28
29 Q. Did you understand at that stage that this was a
30 proposal or that Ernst & Young had formally been retained?
31 A. I understood - okay, reading that now, sorry, they
32 were engaged. The limitations on the scope I took to mean
33 potential limitations that may apply and that their
34 subsequent data extraction, I presumed, would confirm or
35 not the limitations that may apply.
36
37 Q. There was then a further letter which is page 47 in
38 the same bundle, WBI.15.0000017, page 47, bottom right.
39 A. Yes.
40
41 Q. You will see there:
42
43 In accordance with our engagement letter,
44 dated 3 July ... requested Ernst & Young to
45 undertake a forensic data extraction.
46
47 You also requested that we present the
.13/10/2017 (25) 2867 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 extracted transactional data in accordance
2 with mapping specifications provided by
3 you. These were received 10 July 2017 and
4 revised on 14 July 2017.
5
6 Do you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8
9 Q. Then there's an outline of the procedures that were
10 performed, and then the limitations. Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12
13 Q. At that stage, whilst you have some general
14 observations, you do not have any specific data or
15 conclusions from that data; correct, as of this letter?
16 Do you see that?
17 A. I'm sorry, I don't quite understand the question,
18 please.
19
20 Q. That letter on 27 July, was that it? Was that the end
21 of what Ernst & Young were doing?
22 A. I believe so. I'm sorry, I think I'm a bit lost.
23
24 Q. I've just shown you two letters from Ernst & Young.
25 A. Yes.
26
27 Q. One of which was 7 July.
28 A. Yes.
29
30 Q. It had narrative in it. This is the letter of 27 July
31 that has some narrative in it?
32 A. Yes. This was after it had complete - after Ernst &
33 Young had completed the review, I understand.
34
35 Q. But is this the review, these two letters? Is that
36 the extent of the review?
37 A. No. There was a lot of data that accompanied the
38 letter.
39
40 Q. When you say "a lot of data", was there any analysis
41 of that data?
42 A. The data was grouped into various categories. The
43 data was grouped into donations. There was registered - am
44 I --
45
46 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Just pardon me, we do have that data.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2868 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 MR CHESHIRE: Q. I beg your pardon. After that, that
2 letter and that report, was that the end, as you understood
3 it, of Ernst & Young's functions?
4 A. Only for that particular matter.
5
6 Q. When you say "for that particular matter", was there
7 anything further that was done with Ernst & Young?
8 A. Yes. We approached Ernst & Young to put forward a
9 proposal to take over the audit.
10
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. And we also approached Ernst & Young to put forward a
13 proposal to check the compliance of Navision and the other
14 systems in place to see if they - sorry, an external
15 assessment of compliance to make sure they met the
16 requirements of charitable fundraising legislation.
17
18 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Could you just have a look at your
19 statement in Volume 3, tab 65. Would you have a look over
20 the page, page 991.
21 A. Yes.
22
23 Q. You will see a reference in the middle to the
24 corporate compliance. Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
26
27 Q. Is this the response from EY after you approached them
28 to provide that?
29 A. This independence letter was in response to a request
30 to provide surety that EY conducting the audit would not
31 conflict with EY conducting the compliance assessment of
32 Navision and the procedures surrounding Navision to comply
33 with the Charitable Fundraising Act.
34
35 Q. So between the time that they provided their review,
36 to which you've referred, and this letter of 25 September,
37 what else did they do?
38 A. I can't recall anything in WBI.
39
40 Q. I see. The material to which you've referred which is
41 the data which is in tabulated form, that was provided to
42 you and also provided to the Inquiry.
43 A. Yes.
44
45 Q. But since then, nothing further has been done by EY;
46 is that right?
47 A. No. We have just received the proposals. They have
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1 been approved as the auditor and given us a date, an
2 engagement letter, and a start date of approximately
3 23 October.
4
5 Q. That's for the auditing?
6 A. That's for the auditing.
7
8 Q. What about the other aspects of compliance?
9 A. No, I have recommended that for the Trustees and
10 that's for their decision.
11
12 Q. I'm sorry, I think we're at cross-purposes. What
13 about the requirements process, the review?
14 A. That review - the independent assessment by EY was a
15 request for a proposal and I've provided that proposal to
16 the Trustees.
17
18 Q. Just let me understand what you're saying to me.
19 Since the material was provided to you by EY in tabulated
20 form, about which you've spoken, has EY provided any
21 further report in respect of compliance?
22 A. No.
23
24 Q. Have they done any further work in respect of
25 compliance?
26 A. No, just submitted a proposal.
27
28 Q. When you say "just submitted a proposal", what are you
29 talking about?
30 A. We asked Ernst & Young for a proposal to independently
31 assess the compliance of Navision and the procedures, the
32 NWBI, to ensure it meets the requirements of the Charitable
33 Fundraising Act and regulations.
34
35 Q. Anything else?
36 A. No.
37
38 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you. Yes, Mr Cheshire.
39
40 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Do you have your statement there?
41 I think you do. Would you go to paragraph 130.
42
43 PUBLIC INQUIRER: No, she doesn't have it.
44
45 MR CHESHIRE: I beg your pardon.
46
47 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Volume 1, please, Mr Buckley.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2870 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1
2 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the paragraph?
3
4 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Volume 1, paragraph 130.
5 A. Yes.
6
7 Q. I think you refer in the last sentence of that
8 paragraph to an engagement agreement with a statement of
9 work and a proposal and that, as I understand it, is in
10 respect of compliance; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12
13 Q. That in respect of compliance of the Navision system;
14 is that right?
15 A. And the policies and procedures that surround
16 Navision.
17
18 Q. As I understand the position, from what your evidence
19 was before lunch, you accept that in order to comply with
20 the Charitable Fundraising Act, there needs to be not only
21 use of the Navision system, but also setting up systems
22 outside of the Navision system; correct?
23 A. The use of the word "system", I'm not quite sure, but
24 certainly I'm unsure as to whether an accounting system
25 alone in isolation is sufficient to ensure full compliance
26 with the charitable fundraising legislation, the
27 regulations and the authority conditions. My assessment,
28 and we are reflecting and having considerable discussions
29 on this, is that alone - I find it very difficult to feel
30 sure that an accounting system alone is sufficient to
31 ensure compliance.
32
33 Q. Ernst & Young, when they are looking at the issue of
34 compliance, are they looking just at the point of view of
35 the financial system or are they looking at it
36 holistically?
37 A. If we - if they are engaged - if the Trustees engage
38 Ernst & Young, we would be having those discussions with
39 Ernst & Young.
40
41 Q. As I understand it, they have provided, effectively, a
42 proposal, but it has not yet been accepted by the Trustees;
43 is that right?
44 A. That's correct.
45
46 Q. What is then the timeline for that being accepted or
47 not by the Trustees?
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1 A. I have sent the Trustees the proposal and a
2 recommendation and it is up to them to consider. I do not
3 have a timeline.
4
5 Q. But that proposal was received on 19 September; is
6 that right?
7 A. That's correct.
8
9 Q. As you understand it, nothing further has happened
10 with Ernst & Young between 19 September and today; is that
11 right?
12 A. In terms of the audit, yes.
13
14 Q. In terms of this review?
15 A. No. Sorry.
16
17 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Compliance.
18 A. As I understand it, nothing - I'm sorry, sometimes
19 I answer the wrong word.
20
21 MR CHESHIRE: Q. In terms of compliance.
22 A. In terms of compliance, it is my understanding that
23 nothing has been done with Ernst & Young in that space,
24 only internally.
25
26 Q. As I understood your evidence before lunch, it will be
27 at least until March of 2017 before WBI has all of its
28 systems bedded down?
29 A. At this stage, it's likely to be March 2018, yes.
30 Sorry, could I just revise that? We have taken - we have
31 been working with legal advice provided by Ashurst on the
32 compliance and aspects of compliance with the fundraising
33 legislation and our finance team are looking at that.
34 That's independent of EY, I'm sorry.
35
36 Q. As I understand it, to give you the comfort that you
37 were able to comply, you would want to have the Ernst &
38 Young report, correct, on compliance?
39 A. In my personal opinion?
40
41 Q. Yes.
42 A. Yes.
43
44 Q. That in itself, then, would depend upon WBI having all
45 of its systems in place; correct?
46 A. I'm not 100 per cent sure this client relationship
47 management system would need to be in place to ensure
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Transcript produced by DTI
1 compliance. I would need to reflect on that. Certainly
2 Navision, certainly the payroll system. I'm not
3 100 per cent sure whether a database of clients is
4 necessarily required. I would need to reflect on that, I'm
5 sorry.
6
7 Q. When you say reflect on it, presumably also discuss
8 that matter with Ernst & Young?
9 A. Yes, and people within the team, yes.
10
11 Q. And also with Ashurst; correct?
12 A. Yes, possibly.
13
14 Q. So that's WBI.
15
16 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Just before you leave WBI, you have
17 expressed a concern a couple of times about that platform
18 for the Navision not being enough on its own to comply with
19 the Charitable Fundraising Act. Do you remember saying
20 that a couple of times?
21 A. Yes.
22
23 Q. What you've got happening, as I apprehend what has
24 been received by the Inquiry, is that you not only are
25 dealing with Ernst & Young, you're also receiving quite a
26 deal of information and advice from Ashurst in respect of
27 the more broader compliance issues that are not just
28 financial; isn't that right?
29 A. Yes, that's correct.
30
31 Q. Do you have anyone else advising you other than EY,
32 Ashurst and --
33 A. EY, Ashurst, we have - we have engaged a contractor to
34 work on the policies and procedures and she is very
35 experienced in the fundraising space.
36
37 Q. All right. So you have a consultant?
38 A. Yes.
39
40 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, thank you, Mr Cheshire.
41
42 MR CHESHIRE: Q. I was about to ask you about RSL (NSW).
43 Do you recall that the letters from Ernst & Young of 5 July
44 and --
45
46 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Just pardon me, I'm terribly sorry to
47 interrupt. Are you leaving WBI for the moment?
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1
2 MR CHESHIRE: Yes.
3
4 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Could I just ask, one of the things
5 that you said about the new Trustee who has not yet been
6 approved, but has accepted the nomination, as I apprehend
7 what your evidence is, has that candidate been informed of
8 the problem with the trust?
9 A. I arranged --
10
11 Q. I'm just going to ask it again.
12 A. Yes.
13
14 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you. Yes.
15
16 MR CHESHIRE: Q. On RSL (NSW), do you recall that the
17 reports from Ernst & Young that identified deficiencies in
18 the system were deficiencies in the system of WBI and
19 RSL (NSW)? Do you recall that?
20 A. I believe so, although I understand the WBI in
21 relation to expenditure of certain State Councillors,
22 I believe. I'm not sure how extensive it is --
23
24 Q. I'll have you shown Exhibit 16.
25 A. Thank you.
26
27 Q. Tab 5, page 11, bottom right-hand corner. Do you
28 recall this is the letter of 5 July that I showed you?
29 A. Oh, yes.
30
31 Q. Do you see that the retainer in the second paragraph
32 is recorded:
33
34 We confirm that Ernst & Young have been
35 engaged to perform forensic data extraction
36 services for RSL (NSW).
37
38 Correct?
39 A. Yes.
40
41 Q. And for WBI, do you see that?
42 A. Yes, I'm sorry, I think I was thinking of some other
43 report.
44
45 Q. If you turn over two pages to "Limitations on Scope".
46 Do you see "Limitations on Scope"?
47 A. Yes.
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1
2 Q. In the second paragraph there:
3
4 We draw to your attention some inherent
5 limitations to this exercise which are
6 known to EY having previously examined RSL
7 and WBI's financial records ...
8
9 Do you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11
12 Q. You understand from that that Ernst & Young were
13 identifying deficiencies both in respect of WBI and
14 RSL (NSW)?
15 A. Yes.
16
17 Q. You have given evidence as to Ernst & Young looking at
18 WBI's systems from a compliance point of view. What then
19 has RSL (NSW) done with looking at its compliance.
20
21 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. With Ernst & Young?
22 A. With Ernst & Young? I'm unaware of anything with
23 Ernst & Young in relation to RSL (NSW) compliance at this
24 stage.
25
26 MR CHESHIRE: Q. As I understand the position --
27 A. Sorry, I'm just trying to reflect --
28
29 Q. As I understand the position, WBI has engaged Ernst &
30 Young on the compliance issue in order to ensure that it
31 can have confidence going forward that it is compliant;
32 correct?
33
34 MR HERZFELD: I'm sorry to interrupt, but the evidence is
35 not that WBI has engaged Ernst & Young. They have not yet
36 been --
37
38 MR CHESHIRE: I withdraw that.
39
40 PUBLIC INQUIRER: They have been engaging with.
41
42 MR HERZFELD: I have difficulty with --
43
44 MR CHESHIRE: I withdraw the question.
45
46 Q. As you understand it, the reason why there has been
47 engagement with Ernst & Young on the issue of compliance
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1 that has led to it making a proposal, which is before
2 Trustees, is to ensure that WBI can have confidence as to
3 its compliance going forward; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5
6 Q. It would seem to follow, would it not, that RSL (NSW)
7 would also need to have that confidence going forward;
8 correct?
9 A. My personal opinion is yes.
10
11 Q. Are you aware, then, of any steps being taken within
12 RSL (NSW) to give that confidence going forward?
13 A. Can I answer that by way of explanation?
14
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. RSL WBI is in a position to call in Ernst & Young to
17 assess the new systems and the new procedures, because they
18 have now been set up. I am not yet sure of the extent of
19 the problems of compliance in RSL (NSW), and RSL (NSW) is
20 still operating the Sage accounting system. I would think
21 that the process would normally be once we are fully aware
22 of the extent of non-compliance in RSL (NSW), then there
23 would be the steps to remedy the situation, put in place
24 new processes, a new system, and at that stage bring in a
25 firm like EY to assess the compliance of that. EY has been
26 already engaged as the auditor for RSL (NSW), however, for
27 2016 and 2017. That was approved by a resolution of the
28 State Council.
29
30 Q. So Ernst & Young have been appointed as the auditor of
31 both RSL (NSW) and WBI; correct?
32 A. Yes, with separate resolutions.
33
34 Q. As I understand it from your evidence earlier,
35 RSL (NSW) is also going to be transitioning from Sage to
36 Navision; is that right?
37 A. Yes, we have proposed that and that was approved.
38
39 Q. Am I right that the effect of your evidence is that
40 once RSL (NSW) has transitioned to Navision and once you
41 have had the opportunity of looking at the RSL (NSW)
42 processes, then it would also be sensible for a similar
43 exercise of a compliance review to take place within
44 RSL (NSW)?
45 A. Yes. Could I expand on that?
46
47 Q. Yes.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2876 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 A. RSL (NSW), that is the State Branch area. However,
2 there are other areas of RSL (NSW) that we would need to
3 look at, but the Navision system is for the State Branch.
4
5 Q. When you say other areas of RSL (NSW), you're
6 encompassing in that, are you not, the sub-branches?
7 A. Yes.
8
9 Q. It is your understanding that there are likely to be
10 issues of compliance within the sub-branches; correct?
11 A. Yes, that's my understanding.
12
13 Q. As I understand it, RSL (NSW) has sent out a survey to
14 the sub-branches; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16
17 Q. With a view to ascertaining what the position is with
18 compliance; correct?
19 A. Yes, to gain some key information, to form a picture
20 of potential areas of non-compliance so that where we get
21 certain information, we can actually make further
22 inquiries. In and of itself the survey will probably not
23 encompass everything, but we believe there are enough
24 questions in there to enable us to go further if we need
25 to.
26
27 Q. The responses to those surveys have been received?
28 A. Many of them have.
29
30 Q. What to date has been done with the answers to the
31 surveys?
32 A. We have developed a framework as to how to pull out
33 some key information from those surveys, some key details
34 that will allow us to very quickly ascertain whether a
35 sub-branch, for example, is fundraising or not, and some of
36 the key fields that will enable us to dig deeper into the
37 sub-branch and compare - pick out the sub-branches that we
38 need to focus on in the first instance, to either gain more
39 information, or compare it with information that is already
40 held by RSL (NSW) and make further inquiries.
41
42 Q. What are those answers to the surveys, what have they
43 shown you so far?
44 A. I have looked at a few, scanned a few of the responses
45 and they have highlighted, from what I have seen, what
46 I believe to be areas of non-compliance.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2877 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 Q. Apart from identifying areas of non-compliance, as
2 with WBI and RSL (NSW), identifying non-compliance is the
3 first step, putting in systems to remedy and rectify
4 non-compliance is the next step?
5 A. That is correct.
6
7 Q. Has any thought been given, to your understanding, to
8 rectifying issues of non-compliance within the
9 sub-branches?
10 A. Yes. We've started to think about various aspects
11 that relate to non-compliance, including the auditors of
12 the individual sub-branches, including how we can best help
13 sub-branches with compliance. Could I expand that this
14 actually does step over a little bit into the appeals area,
15 because some of the issues associated with compliance with
16 the appeals are in relation to just how much is collected.
17 Issues of ensuring receipts are given when donations,
18 collected by volunteers, for example, don't match the
19 receipted amount on the back of the token. These are all
20 aspects of compliance, and I know the appeals are
21 authorised by WBI, but have an impact in RSL (NSW) and for
22 the sub-branches as well. There are a number of areas and
23 a number of things we need to address in this area.
24
25 Q. As I understand it, your evidence is that the issues
26 in the sub-branches that you have identified have
27 consequences for WBI as well; correct?
28 A. Yes, I believe so.
29
30 Q. In effect, to solve the issues within WBI and
31 RSL (NSW) going forward in relation to compliance, you also
32 need to sort out the sub-branches; correct?
33 A. That's my belief, yes.
34
35 Q. As I understand it, in relation to the sub-branches,
36 you're at a very early stage in identifying the problems
37 before even considering how to solve them; is that right?
38 A. Yes, we are.
39
40 Q. I asked you earlier about the communications with
41 Fair Trading. The authority was submitted in May of this
42 year - sorry, the application for a renewal was submitted
43 in May of this year; correct?
44 A. Yes.
45
46 Q. There was then a letter which I asked you about of
47 22 September from Fair Trading, effectively saying that it
.13/10/2017 (25) 2878 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 needs certain further information before it would grant --
2
3 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Before it would consider.
4
5 MR CHESHIRE: Q. -- before it would consider granting a
6 further authority; correct?
7 A. I believe so. I don't have the wording in front of
8 me.
9
10 Q. Had you or WBI notified Fair Trading of the issues
11 that you had identified with breach?
12 A. Not that I'm aware of.
13
14 Q. At least by the time of your application, you were
15 aware that there was non-compliance within WBI; correct?
16
17 PUBLIC INQUIRER: That's May. Late May.
18
19 THE WITNESS: Late May. I believe there were areas of
20 non-compliance. I was not yet fully across them. I did
21 not have the degree of confidence that I have now at that
22 time.
23
24 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Did you give any consideration at that
25 time to informing Fair Trading as to the issues that you
26 had identified?
27 A. I don't believe I had sufficient confidence to be able
28 to paint an accurate picture of the full extent of the
29 breaches.
30
31 Q. Did you raise that with the Trustees, the question of
32 whether you should inform Fair Trading about the potential
33 areas of breach?
34 A. In April I raised issues that I was concerned about
35 with the Trustees.
36
37 Q. But, as I understand it, you didn't suggest to them,
38 or raise the issue with them as to whether should notify
39 Fair Trading of that; is that right?
40 A. I don't recall doing that. I don't feel - I was -
41 I did not feel confident in my knowledge of the breach, the
42 extent of the breaches.
43
44 Q. At least as matters currently stand, as I understand
45 it, you are now satisfied that there has been significant
46 non-compliance; correct?
47 A. I've seen the statement of the breaches and I
.13/10/2017 (25) 2879 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 understand the statement of the breaches.
2
3 Q. What I think is described as the statement of
4 admissions; is that right?
5 A. Sorry, yes.
6
7 Q. Of 6 September?
8 A. Yes.
9
10 Q. In the context then of the pending application to
11 Fair Trading for a renewal, did you take any steps to
12 notify Fair Trading of those admissions?
13 A. I haven't, no.
14
15 Q. To your knowledge, has anybody within WBI notified
16 Fair Trading of those admissions?
17 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
18
19 Q. Is there any reason for that?
20 A. I believe that - is there any reason for that, that's
21 a good question. Not that I'm aware of - not that I'm
22 aware of. Have Trustees have been made aware of the
23 breaches? Not that I'm aware of.
24
25 Q. But you haven't discussed to the Trustees that these
26 matters should be notified to Fair Trading; is that right?
27 A. I don't recall suggesting that to the Trustees.
28
29 Q. You're aware also, are you not, that in the course of
30 this Inquiry RSL (NSW) has made certain admissions of
31 non-compliance; correct?
32 A. I am aware that that has happened.
33
34 Q. And RSL (NSW) has a current fundraising authority;
35 correct?
36 A. Yes. Yes, it does.
37
38 Q. Have you given any consideration to notifying
39 Fair Trading of those acts of non-compliance that have been
40 identified for RSL (NSW)?
41 A. In terms of RSL (NSW), no, I haven't been able to -
42 I haven't had time or - I haven't been able to put my head
43 around that, no, I'm sorry, I haven't. I have considered,
44 in terms of WBI, the next approach to Fair Trading around
45 our policies and procedures and around the next steps, but
46 I have not put my mind to RSL (NSW) around that.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2880 R G COLLINS (Mr Cheshire)
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1 Q. As I understand it, in relation to WBI, you have given
2 consideration as to satisfying Fair Trading as to the
3 suitability of your systems going forward; correct?
4 A. Yes. It was my intention to - with the development of
5 all the policies and procedures and the Trustees' consent,
6 I have sent the letter from Fair Trading to the Trustees
7 with a recommendation for a response. That's for their
8 consideration, but personally, I have reflected on the next
9 steps I'd like to take with WBI, and they were to
10 collectively - now our policies and procedures are nearly
11 finalised, they're in the final stage of review, to take
12 those policies and procedures and all the information we
13 have to the Office of Fair Trading with the Trustees'
14 consent, to ask the Office of Fair Trading if they would
15 review those policies and procedures and to discuss
16 potentially some changes to - or the potential for changes
17 to the fundraising authority or the way forward for the
18 organisation.
19
20 Q. Do you accept that in the context of giving
21 Fair Trading proper information for it to be able to assess
22 WBI's authority, that it ought to be informed of the
23 admissions that have been made?
24 A. Yes, I would agree with that.
25
26 Q. Would you accept the same in relation to RSL (NSW)?
27 A. Yes, I would agree with that.
28
29 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you very much. Thank you,
30 Madam Inquirer.
31
32 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. I just wanted to ask you questions
33 before perhaps any other counsel might like to seek leave
34 to ask questions. I want to go back to the problems that
35 you raised with the Trustees in 2012 relating to, as you
36 saw it, a breach of trust. Could you be shown, please,
37 Volume 3 of your statement. Would you go to your email
38 which is tab 66, Ms Collins. As I look at what you've
39 said, I understand that you became concerned and then you
40 took advice from Mr John Cannings informally; is that
41 right?
42 A. Informally, yes.
43
44 Q. This email was a consequence or as a result of taking
45 that advice and putting your concerns on paper?
46 A. And doing some research ourselves.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2881 R G COLLINS
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1 Q. Yes. When did you commence there?
2 A. August.
3
4 Q. As soon as you saw this, effectively, you started to
5 take the advice and then put in place a recording of what
6 your concerns were?
7 A. Yes.
8
9 Q. Was Mr Cannings retained by WBI as the solicitor of --
10 A. I'm sorry, I don't know.
11
12 Q. How did you come to speak with Mr Cannings?
13 A. When I first raised the issue with the Trustees at a
14 Trustee meeting, they said that they believed the Trust was
15 not in breach and I asked them if I could investigate that
16 and they gave me permission to do so and they suggested
17 that I go and meet with Mr Cannings because he was the
18 person that had recently had the Administrative Rules -
19 worked on the Administrative Rules and had them approved by
20 the Supreme Court.
21
22 Q. That was prior to this email?
23 A. Yes.
24
25 Q. Yes. The next thing that happens, as I read your
26 evidence, is on 12 December, if you go to tab 67. You were
27 in attendance at this meeting. If you go to page 1004,
28 your report was received, the 29 November email was
29 received, as I understand it?
30 A. Yes.
31
32 Q. Then the Trustees resolved to obtain advice from
33 senior counsel. Do you see that in paragraph 3?
34 A. Yes.
35
36 Q. Did you understand that they were going to take advice
37 from a QC or an SC?
38 A. All I understood at the time - I believe they
39 mentioned, and I'm not sure if it was at that meeting, that
40 they would refer my email to John Cannings.
41
42 Q. So you don't have a recollection of whether this
43 resolution was for senior counsel to be briefed to provide
44 an advice to assist the Trustees? If you look at page
45 1004, paragraph 3.
46 A. No.
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 2882 R G COLLINS
Transcript produced by DTI
1 Q. You don't recall?
2 A. No, I don't recall that, sorry.
3
4 Q. That was in the December. The next document that
5 records anything is about four years later; is that right?
6 19 January 2016.
7 A. That could be right.
8
9 Q. If you have a look at 1007, you will see that
10 Mr John Cannings is to be invited to advise the Trustees in
11 relation to the deed?
12 A. Yes.
13
14 Q. Do you see that?
15 A. Yes.
16
17 Q. Do you know what happened between January 2012 and
18 January 2016 in respect of briefing a lawyer to help work
19 out whether this was a breach?
20 A. Briefly, yes.
21
22 Q. What happened?
23 A. From what I was told, when it was originally referred
24 to Mr Cannings, Mr Perrin explained that this may take some
25 time to sort out.
26
27 Q. When you say it was originally referred to
28 Mr Cannings, when was that?
29 A. Some time in December - after the December 2012
30 meeting.
31
32 Q. All right.
33 A. So I was anticipating that it may take a long time to
34 sort out. I had never been involved in a Trust before.
35
36 Q. Don't worry. Just tell me what happened.
37 A. All right. Then about 12 months or so later I had
38 heard nothing and read nothing in the minutes, and
39 I followed up with Mr Perrin to ask what had happened and
40 Perrin explained that Mr Cannings had been diagnosed with a
41 serious illness. I asked him what would then happen and he
42 said - I think it was to the effect of - I don't know the
43 exact words, I'm sorry, but the impression I got was that
44 it would take - he needed to work out what then to do.
45
46 Then following that, that would have been early 2014,
47 I'm starting to remember --
.13/10/2017 (25) 2883 R G COLLINS
Transcript produced by DTI
1
2 Q. I think mid-2014 was when Mr Cannings was diagnosed.
3 A. Right. Sorry, the timing may be slightly off. Then
4 Mr Rowe - the next thing Mr Rowe resigned, Mr Perrin
5 resigned, and then Mr White was left as the sole Trustee.
6
7 Q. And then Mr Hardman comes in with Mr Kolomeitz?
8 A. That's right. I raised the issue - sorry, when
9 Mr White was the sole Trustee, at a Trustee meeting
10 Ms Mulliner explained to Mr White - they discussed the
11 issue of what he could do as a sole Trustee, and
12 Ms Mulliner raised that she had received some legal advice
13 that all Mr White could do would be day to day business --
14
15 Q. Let me see if I can focus you back on the Trust breach
16 allegation.
17 A. Yes.
18
19 Q. After Mr Cannings had his health problem, nothing
20 seems to have happened - is that right - until 2016, if you
21 go to page 1012, which is a meeting in March 2016. You
22 were there for part of the meeting, and what is decided at
23 that meeting is when Mr Cannings is asked to advise again?
24 A. I'm not aware if anything was happening at that time.
25 It wasn't communicated to me.
26
27 Q. Were you aware that the matter was yet again referred
28 to Mr Cannings?
29 A. I was after that.
30
31 Q. Then Mr Cannings met with you a couple of months later
32 with the Trustees on 14 March 2016; is that right?
33 A. Yes.
34
35 Q. The detail of that is recorded at 1013 and 1014?
36 A. Yes.
37
38 Q. You will see the resolution. Mr Cannings is
39 instructed yet again to do some more advice. It seems to
40 be the same advice; is that right?
41 A. Yes.
42
43 Q. Have you ever had any advice from Mr Cannings?
44 A. I have never seen anything.
45
46 Q. So that is the end of the process, as far as you can
47 tell, in respect of what the Trustees were to do about the
.13/10/2017 (25) 2884 R G COLLINS
Transcript produced by DTI
1 alleged breach?
2 A. No, no, that's not the end. Would you like me to
3 explain what happened next?
4
5 Q. Yes, in terms of legal advice.
6 A. Legal advice. Because I didn't hear anything or see
7 anything, I approached Mr Kolomeitz to change - to get
8 different independent legal advice. That was towards -
9 probably around September 2016. I asked Mr Kolomeitz's
10 permission to ask Mr Nair to source a different solicitor
11 who had not previously been engaged with WBI. Mr Kolomeitz
12 agreed and I asked Mr Nair could he look for an independent
13 solicitor. Mr Nair made a number of inquiries and
14 recommended we engage Ashurst, and the Trustees agreed with
15 that. Ashurst were engaged approximately October 2016 to
16 give advice. Then they gave a series of steps to the
17 Trustees which were approved at a meeting of the Trustees
18 either November/December that year, and then part of that
19 advice was to go and see a Queen's Counsel.
20
21 They recommended that a new little entity be set up, a
22 company, a public benevolent institution and a charity with
23 broader objects, that RSL WBI would engage the new legal
24 entity, the new legal entity would have a fundraising
25 licence and it would fundraise and WBI would no longer and
26 WBI would engage the legal entity. This was taken to a QC.
27 I attended that meeting, and the QC reviewed the current
28 services. In particular, we discussed the grey area of
29 services, that because of the changes in the way Defence
30 dealt with veterans and current serving members who were
31 injured or ill and the need to hold discharge in abeyance
32 because of the length of the delay of the claims process,
33 she felt that those veterans in that grey area may possibly
34 be covered by the objects of WBI. Many of our clients are
35 in that grey area prior to discharge. She recommended
36 that - she, sorry, endorsed the steps that Ashurst had
37 recommended to the Trustees. Those steps were taken to a
38 meeting of the Trustees, and I'm thinking that might have
39 been the December meeting. They were approved. So the
40 Trustees approved the setting up of a new independent legal
41 entity tentatively called RSL DefenceCare Limited, and the
42 course of action that was the subject of the QC's advice.
43
44 Then a resolution was put to RSL (NSW) State Council
45 because part of that advice was that RSL (NSW) would be the
46 sole member of the new legal entity to gain in principle
47 approval, or in principle support, I'm sorry, for the
.13/10/2017 (25) 2885 R G COLLINS (Mr Sulan)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 concept of setting up RSL DefenceCare Limited. That was
2 passed by a circular resolution in January.
3
4 Subsequent to that, the Trustees have changed in those
5 early months of 2017, and then when Mr Brown commenced as a
6 Trustee, I think his first meeting was in June, Ashurst
7 came to go through all the steps that had been taken up to
8 date, to explain those to Mr Brown and to Mr Evans who were
9 then the Trustees of RSL WBI as to the way forward.
10
11 Q. Is that it?
12 A. That's it. I think so.
13
14 Q. And that's where it sits?
15 A. That's where it sits at the moment.
16
17 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you, Ms Collins. That's very
18 helpful. Anything? Mr Sulan.
19
20 MR SULAN: I have some questions about changes which are
21 currently being considered by RSL (NSW). Mr Cheshire asked
22 a number of questions about consultants currently engaged
23 by RSL (NSW) and there were just a couple of questions
24 I wanted to ask.
25
26 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Yes, I grant you leave.
27
28 <EXAMINATION BY MR SULAN:
29
30 MR SULAN: Q. Ms Collins, I'm counsel engaged by
31 RSL (NSW), and I just have a couple of questions in the
32 area I just discussed with Madam Inquirer.
33
34 Do you recall that Mr Cheshire asked you about changes
35 currently occurring in RSL (NSW)?
36 A. Yes.
37
38 Q. He asked you about various professionals that are
39 currently engaged by RSL (NSW) to assist with some of the
40 changes that are occurring?
41 A. Yes.
42
43 Q. You named a number of consultants and professionals
44 that are currently assisting RSL (NSW). I just wanted to
45 ask you: are you aware of Social Ventures Australia's role
46 with respect to RSL (NSW)?
47 A. Yes, I am, sorry, I omitted that.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2886 R G COLLINS (Mr Sulan)
Transcript produced by DTI
1
2 Q. Could I just ask you to tell the Inquiry about what
3 you understand Social Ventures Australia is, firstly, in
4 terms of an organisation, and then, secondly, what you
5 understand they're doing to assist RSL (NSW)?
6 A. Yes. Social ventures Australia are a not-for-profit
7 organisation that assists other not-for-profit
8 organisations in a number of areas. One of those areas is
9 the development of strategy, helping organisations redefine
10 their purpose, and helping take them on the journey of
11 change. RSL (NSW) has engaged Social Ventures Australia as
12 part of the strategic planning process to look at its
13 purpose - to look at the organisation's purpose and to talk
14 to stakeholders, members, other ex-service organisations,
15 to glean what is needed for RSL (NSW) and develop a new
16 purpose and develop a new strategy for the organisation.
17
18 Q. Do you understand them to also have expertise in
19 respect of governance?
20 A. Yes, they do have expertise in respect of governance.
21
22 Q. Is that one of the areas that you understand that
23 they're looking at with respect to RSL (NSW)?
24 A. They are looking at governance probably in the context
25 of the strategic planning, as I understand it.
26
27 Q. That's one of the matters that you understand that
28 they're speaking to stakeholders about, including people at
29 RSL (NSW)?
30 A. Could you just - in terms of governance, are there
31 particular areas?
32
33 Q. Could you just assist the Inquiry in what you
34 understand they're doing with respect to governance issues.
35 A. In respect of governance issues, I guess preliminary
36 to all governance is understanding the organisation's
37 purpose and how it should be structured going forward.
38 Social Ventures Australia are engaging in discussions about
39 a potential structure for RSL (NSW) and the delivery of
40 core services. They're looking at the current services and
41 the current organisation, what is happening in the
42 organisation, what is needed by the community and how best
43 the organisation can structure itself going forward.
44
45 Q. How long do you understand they have been looking at
46 these issues for?
47 A. I believe we engaged them in approximately about early
.13/10/2017 (25) 2887 R G COLLINS (Mr Sulan)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 to mid-September, and their report is due late October,
2 early November, I believe.
3
4 Q. Do you understand that once the strategy issues have
5 been resolved by RSL (NSW), considerations as to compliance
6 will then be considered by particular professionals?
7 A. I would imagine so, yes.
8
9 Q. And that might include, for example, EY?
10 A. Yes.
11
12 Q. Do you understand that part of that is because EY will
13 have some experience in having looked at the WBI compliance
14 issues?
15 A. Yes.
16
17 Q. As far as you understand what the strategy or the
18 timeline is, it is to finish the strategy piece and then to
19 look at the compliance issues and ensure you have
20 professional advice about compliance with respect to
21 RSL (NSW)?
22 A. Yes.
23
24 Q. One other question in this area: do you understand
25 that there are any moves within RSL (NSW) to appoint a
26 company secretary?
27 A. Yes.
28
29 Q. Do you understand that to be, without naming names, an
30 imminent matter that will be attended to?
31 A. Yes.
32
33 Q. What do you understand the role of the company
34 secretary will be one they are appointed?
35 A. The role of the company secretary will be on all
36 matters relating to governance and and compliance in the
37 corporate - in the company secretary space. So how
38 meetings are run, the appropriate policies and procedures,
39 the appropriate documents that are needed, conflicts of
40 interest, standardisation, a whole host of matters that are
41 associated with appropriate governance in the organisation.
42
43 Q. When do you understand that appointment will likely
44 come into effect?
45 A. I'm hoping 21 October.
46
47 MR SULAN: Thank you. Thank you, Madam Inquirer.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2888
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1
2 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Mr Herzfeld, anything?
3
4 MR HERZFELD: No.
5
6 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Q. Do you understand the nature of the
7 Terms of Inquiry, Ms Collins? I presume you've read them.
8 A. Yes.
9
10 Q. You understand that there is a requirement for me to
11 report to the Minister as to whether the Minister could
12 have a view as to whether an authority should be granted or
13 an authority could be revoked, do you know that?
14 A. Yes.
15
16 Q. At the moment - and this is no criticism of you,
17 please don't think so - the position is that the
18 organisations of which you are the General Manager are in a
19 state of flux; is that right?
20 A. I believe so, Madam Inquirer.
21
22 Q. From what you tell me today, any certainty as to the
23 good governance and the measure of good governance in each
24 of the organisations will not be able to be tested until at
25 least March 2018; is that right?
26 A. I don't think I'd agree with that as a statement.
27 I think a lot of things have been put in place already,
28 certainly in WBI and in RSL (NSW), that are very good
29 examples of good governance of an intent to move towards
30 much better systems, much better procedures. I think
31 there's considerable intent in individuals and in the new
32 governing body to understand the mistakes that have been
33 made, how the situation came about and the progressive
34 steps are being taken.
35
36 Q. To actually look at it and say, "This is an exemplar of
37 a good operation" - from what you tell me about Navision
38 and various other aspects of the organisations that will
39 not be in place until March, as you told me, one couldn't
40 be satisfied, until that is in place, that a true judgment
41 can be made of the performance measured against those
42 systems that are then in place?
43 A. I could understand that, I agree.
44
45 Q. Yes. As I said, please don't think that that's a
46 criticism of you.
47 A. No.
.13/10/2017 (25) 2889
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1
2 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you, Ms Collins. Anything arising
3 from that?
4
5 MR CHESHIRE: No.
6
7 PUBLIC INQUIRER: You may step down, Ms Collins, thank
8 you.
9
10 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW
11
12 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Mr Herzfeld, Ms Collins's evidence has
13 concluded, but it does seem that there are negotiations or
14 discussions with the regulator.
15
16 MR HERZFELD: Yes.
17
18 MR CHESHIRE: I should, having regard to the additional
19 evidence that Ms Collins gave as to the timetable and the
20 position that has been reached, I should reiterate that it
21 is urgent and I would be most appreciative of a report back
22 next week.
23
24 MR HERZFELD: I will take that on board.
25
26 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you, Mr Herzfeld. Yes,
27 Mr Cheshire.
28
29 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you, Madam Inquirer. Next week
30 Mr Winter returns on Wednesday, Ms Sheridan on Thursday and
31 then Mr Kells on Friday.
32
33 PUBLIC INQUIRER: Thank you. I will adjourn until then.
34 Thank you.
35
36 AT 3.15PM THE INQUIRY WAS ADJOURNED TO
37 WEDNESDAY, 18 OCTOBER 2017 AT 10.00AM 38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
.13/10/2017 (25) 1
Transcript produced by DTI
# 2871:5, 2871:10,
2882:6
1991 [1] - 2785:12
1st [1] - 2787:29
2786:46, 2868:36
268 [1] - 2806:39
27 [2] - 2867:20,
2867:30
272 [1] - 2807:21
29 [1] - 2881:28
2pm [1] - 2857:47
2884:31
able [16] - 2804:22,
2812:47, 2828:44,
2837:5, 2837:45,
2839:17, 2845:40,
2852:12, 2856:28,
2864:36, 2871:37,
2878:27, 2879:41,
2879:42, 2880:21,
2888:24
absence [1] - 2796:2
absolutely [2] -
2821:12, 2839:13
accept [9] - 2804:32,
2804:38, 2817:41,
2818:3, 2819:27,
2844:2, 2870:19,
2880:20, 2880:26
acceptable [1] -
2804:29
accepted [3] -
2870:42, 2870:46,
2873:6
access [4] - 2816:42,
2816:45, 2817:3,
2825:36
accompanied [1] -
2867:37
accordance [2] -
2866:43, 2867:1
account [15] -
2817:11, 2817:22,
2817:23, 2817:27,
2820:14, 2820:35,
2820:39, 2820:41,
2835:25, 2835:26,
2835:27, 2835:31,
2836:5, 2836:6,
2856:29
accountant [3] -
2847:28, 2847:29,
2847:31
accountants [1] -
2858:10
accounted [1] -
2820:16
accounting [8] -
2847:13, 2852:30,
2852:31, 2852:33,
2861:25, 2870:24,
2870:30, 2875:20
accounts [15] -
2799:37, 2811:34,
2811:42, 2816:42,
2816:46, 2817:3,
2821:6, 2826:1,
2826:8, 2835:32,
2845:37, 2856:23,
2856:25, 2856:36,
2857:18
accurate [1] - 2878:28
achieve [3] - 2803:44,
2842:25, 2856:33
achieved [1] - 2855:28
achieving [1] -
2803:37
acquitted [1] -
2852:27
Act [35] - 2800:32,
2801:32, 2805:25,
2808:19, 2810:32,
2810:37, 2810:41,
2811:18, 2811:23,
2811:25, 2812:39,
2814:26, 2814:31,
2814:45, 2815:38,
2815:40, 2815:42,
2818:27, 2818:41,
2819:31, 2820:3,
2821:4, 2821:17,
2821:37, 2821:38,
2832:21, 2834:21,
2845:44, 2856:18,
2856:20, 2856:41,
2868:33, 2869:33,
2870:20, 2872:19
ACT [1] - 2785:12
action [1] - 2884:42
actioning [1] -
2837:36
active [1] - 2794:34
Active [18] - 2788:19,
2788:20, 2788:26,
2788:33, 2788:45,
2789:3, 2789:22,
2790:19, 2792:38,
2792:39, 2794:12,
2794:18, 2795:16,
2795:40, 2827:39,
2827:41, 2828:21,
2844:20
activities [4] -
2825:46, 2828:17,
2837:29, 2840:2
acts [1] - 2879:39
actual [2] - 2807:4,
2829:23
addition [1] - 2863:18
additional [2] -
2843:14, 2889:18
address [5] - 2786:28,
2832:39, 2862:5,
2862:17, 2877:23
addressed [1] -
2864:21
adequate [1] -
2862:14
adhered [1] - 2863:25
adjourn [3] - 2828:30,
2857:47, 2889:33
#25 [1] - 2787:2
$ 2
$10,000 [2] - 2860:11,
2860:33
$100 [1] - 2860:33
$5,000 [1] - 2860:12
2 [4] - 2786:47,
2787:3, 2831:43,
2857:42
2010 [1] - 2851:23
2012 [11] - 2787:6,
2787:43, 2801:46,
2811:1, 2815:7,
2832:37, 2839:43,
2851:23, 2880:35,
2882:17, 2882:29
2013 [2] - 2822:24,
2851:23
2014 [6] - 2809:18,
2809:29, 2825:45,
2826:21, 2826:41,
2882:46
2015 [5] - 2798:6,
2799:37, 2826:9,
2826:41, 2858:14
2016 [24] - 2794:28,
2795:3, 2795:7,
2795:19, 2795:38,
2796:18, 2798:7,
2798:40, 2799:32,
2828:6, 2835:17,
2845:36, 2848:10,
2849:36, 2851:17,
2851:46, 2875:27,
2882:6, 2882:18,
2883:20, 2883:21,
2883:32, 2884:9,
2884:15
2017 [12] - 2785:27,
2786:35, 2795:29,
2798:9, 2799:42,
2845:37, 2867:3,
2867:4, 2871:27,
2875:27, 2885:5,
2889:37
2018 [2] - 2871:29,
2888:25
21 [2] - 2847:20,
2887:45
22 [4] - 2838:16,
2845:18, 2847:20,
2877:47
226 [3] - 2838:19,
2845:26, 2845:28
23 [2] - 2845:35,
2869:3
245 [1] - 2786:29
25 [3] - 2785:28,
3
3 [8] - 2785:20,
2786:47, 2787:3,
2866:44, 2868:19,
2880:37, 2881:33,
2881:45
3.15PM [1] - 2889:36
30th [1] - 2834:12
31st [1] - 2834:12
1
1 [13] - 2785:22,
2786:47, 2787:3,
2787:19, 2787:23,
2787:25, 2787:33,
2791:1, 2806:37,
2847:28, 2851:4,
2869:47, 2870:4
10 [3] - 2828:28,
2865:30, 2867:3
10.00am [2] - 2785:27,
2786:20
10.00AM [1] - 2889:37
100 [7] - 2793:23,
2837:3, 2851:21,
2852:5, 2856:17,
2871:46, 2872:3
1004 [2] - 2881:27,
2881:45
1007 [1] - 2882:9
1012 [1] - 2883:21
1013 [1] - 2883:35
1014 [1] - 2883:35
11 [6] - 2791:4,
2865:36, 2865:41,
2865:43, 2866:2,
2873:27
12 [6] - 2791:8,
2828:28, 2857:3,
2866:18, 2881:26,
2882:37
13 [4] - 2785:27,
2791:12, 2853:9,
2866:21
130 [2] - 2869:41,
2870:4
14 [3] - 2791:27,
2867:4, 2883:32
15 [2] - 2787:16,
2787:20
15th [1] - 2787:29
16 [2] - 2865:33,
2873:24
18 [2] - 2863:42,
2889:37
19 [4] - 2859:19,
4
41 [1] - 2812:1
47 [2] - 2866:37,
2866:38
5
5 [7] - 2865:13,
2865:33, 2865:38,
2866:5, 2872:43,
2873:27, 2873:28
6
6 [1] - 2879:7
63 [1] - 2829:16
65 [1] - 2868:19
66 [1] - 2880:38
67 [1] - 2881:26
7
7 [2] - 2786:29,
2867:27
9
9 [2] - 2786:35,
2858:39
99 [1] - 2807:30
991 [1] - 2868:20
A
abeyance [1] -
.13/10/2017 (25) 2
Transcript produced by DTI
ADJOURNED [1] - agreed [5] - 2799:6, 2813:37
answers [4] - 2813:14,
2844:46, 2876:30,
2876:42
Anthony [1] - 2785:36
anticipating [1] -
2882:33
Anzac [25] - 2795:11,
2809:30, 2809:41,
2809:45, 2810:26,
2816:2, 2823:29,
2823:34, 2824:42,
2824:45, 2825:2,
2825:7, 2826:23,
2826:40, 2827:29,
2827:35, 2827:44,
2828:3, 2828:14,
2828:17, 2834:45,
2836:23, 2836:28,
2836:36, 2836:39
apart [1] - 2877:1
apartment [1] -
2809:25
Appeal [30] - 2795:11,
2795:12, 2816:3,
2823:34, 2823:35,
2824:41, 2824:42,
2825:2, 2825:3,
2826:40, 2827:29,
2827:34, 2827:35,
2827:43, 2827:44,
2828:3, 2828:14,
2828:18, 2834:45,
2834:46, 2836:23,
2836:28, 2836:36,
2836:39
appeal [2] - 2810:41,
2845:41
appeals [41] -
2794:45, 2795:8,
2795:11, 2810:26,
2810:27, 2810:35,
2815:45, 2815:47,
2817:8, 2823:29,
2823:31, 2825:15,
2825:46, 2826:23,
2826:27, 2826:32,
2826:36, 2826:44,
2827:30, 2828:10,
2828:12, 2828:13,
2833:30, 2834:3,
2834:7, 2834:9,
2834:14, 2834:25,
2834:28, 2835:2,
2835:15, 2835:30,
2836:5, 2845:43,
2846:7, 2846:39,
2846:40, 2877:14,
2877:16, 2877:20
Appeals [7] - 2824:45,
2826:47, 2827:2, 2842:44
approval [8] -
2831:27, 2859:2,
2859:5, 2860:6,
2862:7, 2862:14,
2863:8, 2884:47
approve [5] - 2831:12,
2860:7, 2861:6,
2861:8, 2862:9
approved [17] -
2833:7, 2858:39,
2858:44, 2859:14,
2859:25, 2862:33,
2862:44, 2863:29,
2864:32, 2869:1,
2873:6, 2875:27,
2875:37, 2881:19,
2884:17, 2884:39,
2884:40
approver [1] - 2862:20
approximate [1] -
2860:35
April [2] - 2836:23,
2878:34
area [16] - 2818:47,
2820:11, 2820:18,
2821:12, 2832:23,
2841:15, 2861:23,
2861:28, 2876:1,
2877:14, 2877:23,
2884:28, 2884:33,
2884:35, 2885:32,
2887:24
areas [12] - 2876:2,
2876:5, 2876:20,
2876:46, 2877:1,
2877:22, 2878:19,
2878:33, 2886:8,
2886:22, 2886:31
arise [1] - 2805:35
arising [1] - 2889:2
arose [1] - 2805:38
arranged [1] - 2873:9
arrival [2] - 2791:5,
2791:9
Art [4] - 2824:11,
2824:14, 2824:16,
2824:26
ascertain [1] -
2876:34
ascertaining [1] -
2876:17
Ashurst [10] -
2857:13, 2871:31,
2872:11, 2872:26,
2872:32, 2872:33,
2884:14, 2884:15,
2884:36, 2885:6
aside [1] - 2833:25
aspect [3] - 2821:27,
2889:36 2858:45, 2859:15, 2833:40, 2833:43,
adjournment [1] - 2884:12, 2884:14 2835:25, 2835:31
2812:22 agreement [3] - appear [6] - 2786:10,
ADJOURNMENT [3] - 2823:24, 2823:46, 2786:11, 2797:5,
2812:32, 2828:32, 2870:8 2799:1, 2829:39,
2858:3 aims [1] - 2841:38 2835:21
Administrative [2] - Albert [1] - 2785:22 appearance [1] -
2881:18, 2881:19 alerted [1] - 2831:20 2786:10
admission [1] - allegation [1] - appeared [7] -
2812:20 2883:16 2800:16, 2802:7,
admissions [5] - alleged [1] - 2884:1 2805:35, 2834:24,
2879:4, 2879:12, allow [1] - 2876:34 2834:32, 2834:36,
2879:16, 2879:30, allowed [2] - 2819:16, 2835:39
2880:23 2819:20 application [10] -
admitted [1] - 2800:31 alone [5] - 2856:17, 2812:1, 2812:3,
adopt [1] - 2832:40 2856:26, 2870:25, 2812:10, 2829:19,
adopted [1] - 2850:36 2870:29, 2870:30 2836:40, 2837:2,
advantage [2] -
2845:24, 2854:6
advantages [1] -
alternate [3] -
2840:12, 2849:41,
2863:44
2839:5, 2877:42,
2878:14, 2879:10
applies [1] - 2821:38
2855:7 alternative [1] - apply [2] - 2866:33,
advice [30] - 2803:2, 2803:4 2866:35
2829:19, 2836:28, alternatively [2] - applying [2] -
2849:41, 2851:42, 2829:21, 2829:46 2829:12, 2837:18
2857:1, 2857:2, amended [2] - appoint [1] - 2887:25
2857:6, 2857:9, 2802:32, 2833:18 appointed [4] -
2857:12, 2871:31, amount [8] - 2820:39, 2845:34, 2864:15,
2872:26, 2880:40, 2820:40, 2835:9, 2875:30, 2887:34
2880:45, 2881:5, 2852:33, 2853:26, appointment [1] -
2881:32, 2881:36, 2859:46, 2860:6, 2887:43
2881:44, 2883:12, 2877:19 appreciate [2] -
2883:39, 2883:40, amounts [2] - 2812:28, 2819:45
2883:43, 2884:5, 2860:35, 2862:12 appreciated [1] -
2884:6, 2884:8, analysis [2] - 2865:25, 2832:3
2884:16, 2884:19, 2867:40 appreciative [1] -
2884:42, 2884:45, analyst [4] - 2848:15, 2889:21
2887:20 2848:26, 2848:32, apprehend [4] -
advisable [1] - 2805:7 2848:43 2813:4, 2829:13,
advise [3] - 2845:40, AND [1] - 2787:3 2872:23, 2873:6
2882:10, 2883:23 and,indeed [1] - apprehended [1] -
advised [1] - 2837:44 2805:12 2837:43
adviser [4] - 2788:41, announce [1] - 2786:9 approach [5] - 2813:5,
2788:45, 2789:3, annual [5] - 2798:1, 2830:42, 2831:16,
2795:43 2798:4, 2798:5, 2849:27, 2879:44
Adviser [1] - 2795:28 2798:8, 2845:37 approached [5] -
advising [1] - 2872:31 answer [16] - 2796:13, 2829:5, 2868:8,
advocacy [2] - 2789:9, 2796:14, 2802:41, 2868:12, 2868:27,
2843:6 2804:15, 2808:28, 2884:7
Affairs [1] - 2795:28 2808:29, 2810:38, appropriate [19] -
affairs [6] - 2788:41, 2811:19, 2813:42, 2793:17, 2804:18,
2836:1, 2842:26, 2814:37, 2818:37, 2804:33, 2805:24,
2846:5, 2846:12, 2827:46, 2827:47, 2805:26, 2842:37,
2847:12 2856:13, 2871:19, 2847:32, 2847:35,
agent [1] - 2819:17 2875:13 2847:39, 2849:39,
ago [1] - 2859:34 answerable [1] - 2856:29, 2860:41,
agree [7] - 2804:47, 2843:33 2861:2, 2861:25,
2805:26, 2839:10,
2880:24, 2880:27,
2888:26, 2888:43
answered [1] -
2836:12
answering [1] -
2862:24, 2887:38,
2887:39, 2887:41
appropriateness [1] -
.13/10/2017 (25) 3
Transcript produced by DTI
2829:28, 2834:5 2798:40, 2799:8,
2799:17, 2800:13,
2800:14, 2800:16,
2801:16, 2801:25,
2801:30, 2857:36,
2868:9, 2868:30,
2871:12
audited [2] - 2825:39,
2825:42
auditing [3] - 2845:36,
2869:5, 2869:6
auditor [15] - 2799:9,
2799:32, 2799:35,
2799:39, 2800:17,
2801:10, 2805:46,
2806:1, 2806:4,
2845:34, 2869:1,
2875:26, 2875:30
auditors [4] - 2798:23,
2799:27, 2801:8,
2877:11
auditors' [1] - 2799:10
audits [1] - 2849:3
August [17] - 2787:16,
2787:19, 2787:20,
2787:23, 2787:25,
2787:33, 2828:5,
2828:6, 2833:30,
2834:13, 2835:17,
2837:10, 2837:26,
2851:4, 2863:7,
2864:33, 2881:2
Aurion [6] - 2852:38,
2853:6, 2853:7,
2854:14, 2855:39
Australia [8] -
2821:34, 2821:42,
2823:18, 2823:35,
2886:3, 2886:6,
2886:11, 2886:38
Australia's [1] -
2885:45
authorised [1] -
2877:21
authorities [6] -
2818:46, 2819:2,
2821:47, 2822:29,
2822:39, 2843:37
authority [33] -
2785:4, 2807:20,
2811:6, 2811:10,
2811:38, 2814:15,
2814:21, 2814:45,
2816:23, 2819:4,
2819:12, 2819:21,
2824:46, 2824:47,
2835:4, 2835:5,
2835:8, 2835:14,
2835:16, 2836:40,
2836:43, 2837:46,
2838:31, 2856:21,
2870:27, 2877:41,
2878:6, 2879:34,
2880:17, 2880:22,
2888:12, 2888:13
automatic [1] -
2820:17
automatically [1] -
2820:9
auxiliaries [2] -
2803:32, 2807:42
auxiliary [1] - 2807:31
available [2] -
2821:34, 2851:46
average [1] - 2831:8
aware [75] - 2792:33,
2796:18, 2797:31,
2800:31, 2801:35,
2801:45, 2806:20,
2806:23, 2806:25,
2806:29, 2806:45,
2807:15, 2807:16,
2807:19, 2809:16,
2811:1, 2811:5,
2811:9, 2811:11,
2811:13, 2811:14,
2811:28, 2811:32,
2814:10, 2814:14,
2814:21, 2814:25,
2814:30, 2814:32,
2817:37, 2819:41,
2821:3, 2821:7,
2821:37, 2823:17,
2823:27, 2824:3,
2824:11, 2824:22,
2824:30, 2824:33,
2828:19, 2829:26,
2832:30, 2834:10,
2834:35, 2835:23,
2836:31, 2842:10,
2843:32, 2843:34,
2843:36, 2845:12,
2845:15, 2854:27,
2855:14, 2858:9,
2858:14, 2858:18,
2861:12, 2862:5,
2863:32, 2875:11,
2875:21, 2878:12,
2878:15, 2879:21,
2879:22, 2879:23,
2879:29, 2879:32,
2883:24, 2883:27,
2885:45
awareness [1] -
2825:28
backdated [4] - benevolent [2] -
aspects [12] - 2813:2, 2787:19, 2787:23, 2841:25, 2884:22
2819:30, 2821:16, 2851:12, 2851:15 Bergin [1] - 2785:32
2834:15, 2856:39, background [1] - best [6] - 2800:24,
2856:41, 2857:3, 2840:11 2801:14, 2801:24,
2869:8, 2871:32, bad [1] - 2808:14 2801:27, 2877:12,
2877:10, 2877:20, balance [4] - 2798:31, 2886:42
2888:38 2798:33, 2798:35, better [9] - 2818:12,
assess [4] - 2869:31, 2798:46 2839:23, 2846:44,
2875:17, 2875:25, bank [13] - 2811:33, 2849:20, 2853:16,
2880:21 2816:42, 2817:3, 2853:28, 2888:30
assessed [1] - 2817:11, 2820:39, between [14] -
2845:33 2820:41, 2821:5, 2787:29, 2803:30,
assessment [5] - 2835:27, 2836:5, 2803:39, 2803:44,
2845:32, 2868:15, 2836:6, 2856:22, 2805:28, 2805:36,
2868:31, 2869:14, 2856:36, 2857:18 2823:24, 2823:46,
2870:27 banked [3] - 2835:24, 2824:33, 2841:20,
assist [7] - 2849:10, 2835:30 2850:25, 2868:35,
2849:43, 2852:12, basic [2] - 2856:44 2871:10, 2882:17
2881:44, 2885:39, basis [1] - 2831:5 beyond [3] - 2845:4,
2886:5, 2886:33 bearing [2] - 2846:2, 2851:40, 2851:41
assistance [6] - 2847:34 big [1] - 2841:34
2802:7, 2802:12, became [22] - bill [2] - 2808:32,
2829:46, 2840:35, 2788:10, 2789:6, 2808:37
2849:37, 2853:30 2789:17, 2792:33, billed [1] - 2859:42
Assistance [1] - 2794:33, 2794:40, bins [1] - 2841:8
2788:8 2794:44, 2795:7, bit [9] - 2788:40,
assistant [3] - 2795:15, 2796:32, 2789:35, 2789:36,
2847:28, 2847:29, 2796:33, 2797:12, 2798:29, 2840:6,
2847:31 2797:26, 2801:35, 2851:40, 2851:41,
assistants [1] - 2801:45, 2834:35, 2867:22, 2877:14
2847:42 2835:23, 2849:26, blurring [3] - 2803:39,
assisting [1] - 2849:31, 2849:46, 2805:28, 2805:36
2885:44 2850:3, 2880:39 board [1] - 2889:24
assists [1] - 2886:7 become [4] - 2787:10, bodies [1] - 2840:14
associated [4] - 2846:11, 2849:35, body [1] - 2888:32
2800:14, 2816:14, 2863:32 bothered [2] - 2834:6,
2877:15, 2887:41 becoming [3] - 2834:8
association [1] - 2797:8, 2836:30, bottom [7] - 2836:18,
2842:15 2849:27 2837:14, 2837:15,
assume [1] - 2796:17 bedded [1] - 2871:28 2865:43, 2865:46,
assumed [2] - BEFORE [1] - 2785:31 2866:38, 2873:27
2795:22, 2850:27 beg [3] - 2824:16, bought [1] - 2841:14
AT [2] - 2889:36, 2868:1, 2869:45 box [6] - 2786:6,
2889:37 beginning [3] - 2813:31, 2828:27,
attached [2] - 2798:27, 2798:30, 2828:35, 2830:5,
2841:44, 2863:23 2806:39 2858:6
attaching [2] - behalf [2] - 2812:37, Branch [4] - 2843:7,
2843:24, 2843:27 2819:8 2843:33, 2876:1,
attendance [1] - belief [4] - 2793:39, 2876:3
2881:27 2793:42, 2856:20, branch [3] - 2864:12,
attended [3] - 2877:33 2876:35, 2876:37
2830:39, 2884:27, believer [1] - 2840:21 Branches [1] -
2887:30 below [1] - 2831:31 2823:21
attending [2] - 2796:3, benefit [4] - 2812:36, branches [22] -
2799:31 2836:34, 2842:15, 2803:32, 2807:16,
B attention [2] - 2852:34 2834:41, 2834:44,
2803:29, 2874:4 benefits [1] - 2812:24 2835:8, 2835:10,
attract [1] - 2842:2
audit [14] - 2798:28, back-end [1] -
2820:11
benevolence [1] -
2841:21
2835:17, 2835:21,
2835:38, 2843:33,
.13/10/2017 (25) 4
Transcript produced by DTI
2843:36, 2876:6, 2841:22, 2841:23, 2794:7, 2804:39, 2862:4, 2880:16,
2884:29, 2885:20,
2885:34, 2885:40
changing [1] -
2861:46
charitable [18] -
2807:20, 2811:5,
2818:37, 2835:8,
2840:4, 2841:5,
2841:6, 2841:17,
2841:22, 2841:29,
2841:41, 2841:42,
2842:4, 2842:8,
2856:38, 2865:29,
2868:16, 2870:26
CHARITABLE [1] -
2785:12
Charitable [25] -
2800:32, 2801:32,
2805:25, 2808:19,
2810:32, 2810:37,
2810:41, 2811:17,
2812:38, 2814:25,
2814:45, 2818:27,
2818:41, 2819:31,
2820:3, 2821:4,
2821:17, 2821:37,
2832:21, 2834:21,
2856:41, 2868:33,
2869:32, 2870:20,
2872:19
charities [4] -
2840:21, 2841:2,
2841:12, 2841:40
charity [11] - 2831:35,
2839:45, 2840:11,
2841:14, 2841:38,
2841:39, 2842:1,
2842:5, 2852:34,
2884:22
Charity [2] - 2841:7,
2841:9
chart [4] - 2791:4,
2791:19, 2791:24,
2791:28
charts [2] - 2790:42,
2790:43
check [2] - 2851:20,
2868:13
checked [3] - 2862:23,
2862:25
checking [5] -
2862:11, 2862:14,
2862:19, 2862:31
CHESHIRE [50] -
2786:3, 2786:22,
2786:24, 2786:45,
2787:5, 2787:42,
2794:27, 2797:18,
2800:11, 2802:47,
2806:12, 2806:37,
2807:8, 2810:47,
2814:7, 2818:17,
2819:27, 2821:33,
2822:28, 2823:9,
2824:8, 2824:16,
2828:24, 2830:9,
2830:37, 2835:38,
2838:8, 2857:44,
2858:8, 2858:43,
2859:1, 2864:11,
2865:18, 2868:1,
2869:40, 2869:45,
2870:4, 2871:21,
2872:42, 2873:2,
2873:16, 2874:26,
2874:38, 2874:44,
2878:5, 2878:24,
2880:29, 2889:5,
2889:18, 2889:29
Cheshire [18] -
2785:36, 2786:1,
2800:8, 2806:10,
2806:34, 2807:5,
2814:5, 2819:25,
2821:31, 2830:7,
2838:6, 2858:6,
2865:16, 2869:38,
2872:40, 2885:21,
2885:34, 2889:27
Chief [2] - 2830:21,
2830:33
chief [4] - 2848:1,
2848:27, 2849:31,
2849:46
children's [1] -
2841:15
choice [3] - 2852:15,
2852:23, 2852:30
circular [2] - 2864:34,
2885:2
circumstance [1] -
2813:47
circumstances [1] -
2813:4
civil [1] - 2813:39
claims [3] - 2789:9,
2843:5, 2884:32
clarify [6] - 2788:34,
2790:8, 2815:34,
2837:41, 2856:1,
2858:35
clarity [1] - 2859:34
clear [8] - 2787:22,
2789:17, 2799:34,
2801:9, 2812:21,
2825:4, 2829:45,
2847:30
clearing [6] - 2805:31,
2806:4, 2806:16,
2876:10, 2876:14, 2841:24, 2841:28, 2817:42, 2827:31,
2876:37, 2877:9, 2841:29, 2841:31, 2835:2
2877:12, 2877:13, 2841:33, 2841:35, case [6] - 2788:1,
2877:22, 2877:26, 2841:40, 2841:42, 2790:16, 2801:41,
2877:32, 2877:35 2841:44, 2842:31, 2804:9, 2834:32,
branches's [1] - 2843:24, 2843:27, 2835:11
2835:32 2848:14, 2848:26, Castlereagh [1] -
breach [22] - 2802:8, 2848:32, 2848:43, 2786:29
2802:17, 2811:9, 2883:13 categories [1] -
2812:43, 2828:40, BY [2] - 2786:22, 2867:42
2829:40, 2829:45, 2885:28 cater [3] - 2852:25,
2832:36, 2832:39, 2853:21, 2853:28
C 2832:41, 2832:47, ceased [3] - 2792:41,
2836:34, 2836:47, 2793:45, 2824:26
C-O-N-C-U-R [1] -
2863:1
campaign [1] -
2826:46
Camporeale [1] -
2785:38
cancellation [1] -
2836:36
candidate [1] - 2873:7
Cannings [16] -
2880:40, 2881:9,
2881:12, 2881:17,
2881:40, 2882:10,
2882:24, 2882:28,
2882:40, 2883:2,
2883:19, 2883:23,
2883:28, 2883:31,
2883:38, 2883:43
cannot [2] - 2809:13,
2813:43
capable [1] - 2854:16
card [18] - 2808:22,
2831:12, 2859:38,
2859:41, 2860:7,
2860:10, 2860:12,
2860:13, 2860:16,
2860:18, 2860:20,
2860:23, 2860:44,
2861:4, 2861:9,
2862:26
cards [3] - 2809:2,
2809:13, 2816:34
care [3] - 2841:14,
2841:16, 2842:43
careful [1] - 2847:37
carefully [1] - 2812:18
carried [11] - 2810:36,
2816:28, 2826:24,
2826:28, 2826:32,
2826:36, 2827:35,
2827:44, 2834:35,
2835:3, 2859:30
carry [1] - 2825:22
carrying [6] - 2792:18,
2839:39, 2878:11, ceasing [1] - 2824:34
2878:33, 2878:41, cent [7] - 2793:23,
2880:36, 2881:15, 2837:3, 2851:21,
2882:19, 2883:15, 2852:5, 2856:17,
2884:1 2871:46, 2872:3
breaches [10] - central [2] - 2834:24,
2800:31, 2800:35, 2834:26
2800:40, 2801:31, centre [2] - 2841:15,
2834:20, 2878:29, 2841:16
2878:42, 2878:47,
2879:1, 2879:23
break [1] - 2828:27
briefed [1] - 2881:43
Centre [1] - 2788:8
certain [18] - 2800:31,
2811:33, 2814:22,
2814:26, 2821:4,
briefing [1] - 2882:18 2835:28, 2838:13,
briefly [1] - 2882:20 2844:2, 2851:12,
bring [4] - 2804:27, 2851:15, 2851:21,
2836:8, 2848:43, 2857:17, 2862:9,
2875:24 2862:18, 2873:21,
broad [1] - 2818:42 2876:21, 2878:1,
broader [5] - 2803:5, 2879:30
2803:7, 2829:31, certainly [9] - 2819:9,
2872:27, 2884:23 2841:1, 2841:11,
broadly [2] - 2848:38, 2843:8, 2856:40,
2848:41 2870:24, 2872:1,
brochure [7] - 2833:7, 2872:2, 2888:28
2833:9, 2833:10, certainty [1] - 2888:22
2833:11, 2833:12, cetera [2] - 2813:4,
2833:16, 2833:18 2856:25
brought [7] - 2836:7, CFO [3] - 2797:37,
2836:8, 2848:34, 2797:39, 2814:42
2848:45, 2849:4, change [15] - 2804:24,
2849:10, 2863:10 2804:25, 2804:26,
Brown [2] - 2885:5, 2804:27, 2805:16,
2885:8 2809:10, 2852:12,
buckets [3] - 2816:29, 2852:13, 2852:18,
2816:31, 2818:45 2852:19, 2853:27,
Buckley [1] - 2869:47 2862:15, 2862:18,
building [2] - 2830:42, 2884:7, 2886:11
2831:1 changed [6] - 2803:3,
Building [1] - 2785:20 2827:25, 2833:17,
bundle [1] - 2866:38 2843:21, 2850:43,
business [27] - 2885:4
2794:41, 2840:24, changes [11] -
2840:29, 2840:42, 2798:30, 2832:44,
2841:12, 2841:20, 2861:36, 2861:38,
.13/10/2017 (25) 5
Transcript produced by DTI
2806:21, 2806:27, 2837:10, 2885:5 2857:21, 2857:23,
2857:29, 2857:36,
2868:13, 2868:15,
2868:24, 2868:31,
2869:8, 2869:21,
2869:25, 2869:31,
2870:10, 2870:13,
2870:25, 2870:31,
2870:34, 2871:17,
2871:21, 2871:22,
2871:32, 2871:38,
2872:1, 2872:27,
2874:18, 2874:19,
2874:23, 2874:30,
2874:47, 2875:3,
2875:19, 2875:22,
2875:25, 2875:43,
2876:10, 2876:18,
2876:20, 2876:46,
2877:1, 2877:2,
2877:4, 2877:8,
2877:11, 2877:13,
2877:15, 2877:20,
2877:31, 2878:15,
2878:20, 2878:46,
2879:31, 2879:39,
2887:5, 2887:13,
2887:19, 2887:20,
2887:36
compliant [8] -
2811:30, 2816:11,
2818:5, 2818:6,
2820:3, 2844:34,
2856:38, 2874:31
complied [1] -
2821:17
comply [5] - 2814:30,
2868:32, 2870:19,
2871:37, 2872:18
complying [5] -
2805:24, 2810:36,
2811:17, 2815:40,
2815:41
comprises [1] -
2844:11
concept [1] - 2885:1
concern [12] -
2805:30, 2807:8,
2807:12, 2807:26,
2807:34, 2812:22,
2825:12, 2834:15,
2835:6, 2835:38,
2856:39, 2872:17
concerned [8] -
2796:33, 2796:38,
2805:33, 2825:2,
2825:13, 2834:20,
2878:34, 2880:39
concerning [1] -
2829:25
concerns [5] - 2852:33, 2853:25,
2807:47 comment [2] - 2834:10, 2834:11, 2870:28, 2888:31
clearly [1] - 2818:8 2810:17, 2844:38 2846:40, 2880:45, consideration [17] -
client [11] - 2853:16, commercial [2] - 2881:6 2811:23, 2811:25,
2853:19, 2853:23, 2806:13, 2806:22 concluded [1] - 2820:38, 2820:47,
2853:36, 2853:41, Committee [7] - 2889:13 2821:11, 2821:13,
2854:24, 2854:30, 2826:47, 2827:2, conclusions [1] - 2821:16, 2821:20,
2855:32, 2860:42, 2833:35, 2833:39, 2867:15 2821:26, 2821:46,
2871:46 2833:40, 2833:43, Concur [2] - 2862:45, 2822:16, 2829:43,
clients [3] - 2840:32, 2834:14 2863:11 2838:13, 2878:24,
2872:3, 2884:34 committee [12] - conditions [4] - 2879:38, 2880:2,
closer [2] - 2797:13, 2827:2, 2827:7, 2814:22, 2814:31, 2880:8
2797:16 2833:33, 2834:2, 2815:38, 2870:27 considerations [1] -
clothing [1] - 2841:8 2836:7, 2855:19, conduct [4] - 2785:6, 2887:5
collected [3] - 2858:36, 2858:43, 2845:41, 2845:42, considered [6] -
2843:45, 2877:16, 2859:2, 2859:3, 2846:7 2829:2, 2832:20,
2877:18 2859:9, 2859:13 conducted [6] - 2832:38, 2879:43,
collection [3] - common [1] - 2860:32 2794:45, 2810:28, 2885:21, 2887:6
2816:29, 2818:45, communicate [1] - 2823:30, 2824:26, considering [2] -
2841:8 2830:32 2855:46, 2857:6 2803:13, 2877:37
collectively [1] - communicated [2] - conducting [3] - constituted [2] -
2880:10 2837:44, 2883:25 2795:8, 2868:30, 2789:2, 2819:45
collectors [3] - communication [1] - 2868:31 Constitution [2] -
2816:6, 2816:29, 2838:2 conducts [1] - 2843:11, 2843:17
2816:31 communications [5] - 2823:31 consultant [1] -
Collins [27] - 2786:4, 2797:28, 2801:7, confidence [6] - 2872:37
2786:7, 2786:11, 2801:10, 2809:35, 2874:31, 2875:2, consultants [2] -
2786:18, 2786:24, 2877:40 2875:7, 2875:12, 2885:22, 2885:43
2786:26, 2787:5, community [3] - 2878:21, 2878:27 contemplated [1] -
2806:40, 2806:41, 2789:8, 2793:14, confident [1] - 2829:12
2812:23, 2813:3, 2886:42 2878:41 content [1] - 2831:27
2813:31, 2813:32, company [7] - confirm [4] - 2817:24, contents [2] - 2785:5,
2814:9, 2829:31, 2821:21, 2839:45, 2866:10, 2866:34, 2813:25
2830:5, 2830:11, 2884:22, 2887:26, 2873:34 context [7] - 2805:23,
2857:46, 2858:6, 2887:33, 2887:35, confirmations [1] - 2805:28, 2809:16,
2858:8, 2880:38, 2887:37 2838:26 2818:2, 2879:10,
2885:17, 2885:30, compare [2] - conflict [1] - 2868:31 2880:20, 2886:24
2888:7, 2889:2, 2876:37, 2876:39 conflicts [5] - continue [11] -
2889:7, 2889:19 complaint [1] - 2864:20, 2864:24, 2803:25, 2809:7,
COLLINS [2] - 2793:44 2864:30, 2864:41, 2832:45, 2833:6,
2786:20, 2787:2 complete [1] - 2887:39 2839:6, 2839:15,
collins' [1] - 2812:37 2867:32 connect [1] - 2807:23 2839:16, 2839:22,
Collins's [1] - 2889:12 completed [4] - conscious [1] - 2843:41, 2844:34,
colour [1] - 2799:46 2798:6, 2798:9, 2812:42 2844:37
combination [2] - 2855:44, 2867:33 consent [2] - 2880:5, continued [4] -
2840:46, 2842:41 completely [1] - 2880:14 2796:21, 2802:11,
combined [2] - 2797:22 consented [1] - 2802:17, 2802:35
2850:25, 2855:23 compliance [82] - 2863:38 continues [2] -
comfort [1] - 2871:36 2805:19, 2811:29, consequence [1] - 2801:41, 2803:21
coming [6] - 2798:28, 2812:38, 2815:38, 2880:44 continuing [1] -
2825:18, 2836:43, 2816:20, 2816:36, consequences [1] - 2839:4
2848:24, 2848:42, 2818:2, 2818:3, 2877:27 contract [9] - 2787:16,
2856:40 2818:22, 2818:26, consider [9] - 2787:19, 2787:22,
commence [3] - 2818:36, 2819:30, 2794:16, 2796:10, 2792:28, 2827:18,
2787:18, 2863:12, 2834:36, 2836:25, 2804:13, 2810:35, 2848:18, 2848:23,
2881:1 2836:27, 2836:31, 2810:38, 2839:44, 2848:24, 2862:23
commenced [8] - 2836:34, 2837:9, 2871:2, 2878:3, contractor [1] -
2787:42, 2789:16, 2841:7, 2841:10, 2878:5 2872:33
2792:32, 2801:46, 2845:44, 2856:29, considerable [6] - contractual [2] -
2810:47, 2814:9, 2856:33, 2857:4, 2836:24, 2840:14, 2862:12, 2862:22
.13/10/2017 (25) 6
Transcript produced by DTI
control [5] - 2791:41, 2804:34, 2804:41,
2804:44, 2805:6,
2805:13, 2805:20,
2805:25, 2805:32,
2806:13, 2806:17,
2806:22, 2806:31,
2807:9, 2807:13,
2807:26, 2807:31,
2807:34, 2807:38,
2807:43, 2807:47,
2808:15, 2808:23,
2808:27, 2808:32,
2808:37, 2808:41,
2808:45, 2810:28,
2811:10, 2811:18,
2811:39, 2811:44,
2814:11, 2814:15,
2814:22, 2814:31,
2815:18, 2815:20,
2815:28, 2815:32,
2817:18, 2817:19,
2818:18, 2818:23,
2818:32, 2821:11,
2821:34, 2821:38,
2821:42, 2823:10,
2823:18, 2823:21,
2823:31, 2823:35,
2824:12, 2825:8,
2825:18, 2826:4,
2826:28, 2826:32,
2826:41, 2827:3,
2827:8, 2830:18,
2831:36, 2831:40,
2831:44, 2831:47,
2832:4, 2832:32,
2833:30, 2833:34,
2833:43, 2834:32,
2834:37, 2834:41,
2835:44, 2836:15,
2836:25, 2836:36,
2836:40, 2836:44,
2837:29, 2838:10,
2838:16, 2842:16,
2842:21, 2842:28,
2843:33, 2843:37,
2843:41, 2844:16,
2846:8, 2846:18,
2847:1, 2847:16,
2849:10, 2849:14,
2850:33, 2850:41,
2851:11, 2851:47,
2854:33, 2855:7,
2857:22, 2858:11,
2858:20, 2861:14,
2863:34, 2864:16,
2864:21, 2865:9,
2865:26, 2865:31,
2866:26, 2867:15,
2870:10, 2870:11,
2870:22, 2870:44,
2871:7, 2871:38,
2871:45, 2872:11,
2872:29, 2873:38,
2874:32, 2875:3,
2875:8, 2875:31,
2876:10, 2876:14,
2876:18, 2877:5,
2877:27, 2877:32,
2877:43, 2878:6,
2878:15, 2878:46,
2879:31, 2879:35,
2880:3
corrections [1] -
2813:6
correctly [1] - 2827:47
correspondence [1] -
2838:11
costs [1] - 2840:33
Council [12] -
2833:45, 2842:42,
2844:40, 2858:37,
2858:46, 2859:10,
2859:18, 2859:19,
2859:22, 2864:32,
2875:28, 2884:44
Councillor [4] -
2859:8, 2863:17,
2863:18, 2863:46
Councillors [4] -
2858:24, 2858:25,
2865:2, 2873:21
Councillors's [1] -
2858:33
counsel [5] - 2813:40,
2880:33, 2881:33,
2881:43, 2885:30
Counsel [1] - 2884:19
couple [8] - 2798:36,
2841:10, 2863:12,
2872:17, 2872:20,
2883:31, 2885:23,
2885:31
course [8] - 2798:39,
2813:11, 2813:39,
2829:9, 2833:21,
2846:43, 2879:29,
2884:42
Court [2] - 2829:47,
2881:20
court [7] - 2813:5,
2828:46, 2829:5,
2829:12, 2829:19,
2839:5
cover [1] - 2858:23
covered [4] - 2813:18,
2814:18, 2816:2,
2884:34
covering [1] - 2791:36
covers [1] - 2859:31
coversheet [2] -
2862:18, 2863:9
credit [20] - 2808:22,
2809:2, 2809:13,
2831:12, 2859:38,
2859:41, 2860:7,
2860:10, 2860:12,
2860:13, 2860:16,
2860:18, 2860:20,
2860:23, 2860:44,
2861:4, 2861:8,
2862:26
criminal [1] - 2813:38
criticism [2] -
2888:16, 2888:46
CRM [2] - 2854:26,
2854:28
cross [1] - 2869:12
cross-purposes [1] -
2869:12
current [34] - 2786:31,
2788:14, 2791:28,
2791:32, 2793:21,
2793:27, 2801:37,
2802:12, 2802:18,
2802:35, 2802:47,
2803:2, 2803:22,
2804:25, 2822:44,
2823:2, 2831:39,
2832:27, 2832:32,
2832:41, 2833:3,
2833:16, 2833:25,
2838:38, 2839:37,
2843:16, 2846:31,
2852:3, 2856:27,
2879:34, 2884:27,
2884:30, 2886:40,
2886:41
current" [2] - 2833:6,
2833:7
cy [1] - 2829:12
dated [2] - 2786:35,
2796:17, 2814:41, 2866:44
2835:47, 2847:11 day-to-day [1] -
controlled [2] - 2804:39
2790:25, 2861:24 deal [3] - 2789:33,
convenient [1] - 2857:40, 2872:26
2828:24 dealing [4] - 2817:29,
conversation [1] - 2850:7, 2864:20,
2818:4 2872:25
COO [1] - 2849:27 dealings [6] -
coordinates [1] - 2797:28, 2799:26,
2824:41 2799:39, 2801:25,
coordinator [1] - 2805:47, 2830:37
2846:36 dealt [7] - 2821:22,
copies [1] - 2861:8 2841:46, 2852:44,
COPYRIGHT [1] - 2853:2, 2861:5,
2785:1 2861:13, 2884:30
Copyright [1] - 2785:2 December [5] -
core [1] - 2886:40 2881:26, 2882:4,
Coresoft [1] - 2851:26 2882:29, 2884:39
corner [3] - 2865:43, decide [2] - 2819:33,
2865:46, 2873:27 2841:40
Cornerstone [1] - decided [4] - 2842:41,
2821:21 2846:43, 2859:9,
corporate [2] - 2883:22
2868:24, 2887:37 decision [18] -
corporations [1] - 2803:16, 2803:19,
2846:42 2804:28, 2804:29,
correct [205] -
2786:35, 2786:39,
2787:7, 2787:11,
2787:45, 2788:1,
2788:6, 2788:10,
2788:23, 2788:29,
2789:9, 2789:13,
2789:18, 2790:26,
2836:22, 2837:1,
2837:28, 2837:32,
2837:33, 2837:36,
2838:10, 2838:34,
2842:46, 2845:47,
2859:7, 2859:13,
2869:10
decisions [3] -
2790:33, 2790:38, 2804:20, 2804:23,
2790:42, 2791:5, 2852:21
2791:13, 2791:20, decompression [2] -
2791:29, 2791:42, 2792:33, 2792:37
D 2791:46, 2792:10, deductible [1] -
2792:22, 2792:25, 2831:44
data [15] - 2853:26,
2866:11, 2866:34,
2866:45, 2867:1,
2867:14, 2867:15,
2867:37, 2867:40,
2867:41, 2867:42,
2867:43, 2867:46,
2868:41, 2873:35
database [1] - 2872:3
date [16] - 2802:40,
2838:17, 2838:25,
2845:2, 2845:35,
2847:30, 2851:7,
2855:39, 2859:22,
2863:42, 2863:44,
2864:39, 2869:1,
2869:2, 2876:30,
2885:8
2792:34, 2792:42, deed [1] - 2882:11
2794:3, 2794:7, deeper [1] - 2876:36
2794:23, 2794:28, Defence [7] - 2788:8,
2794:32, 2794:37, 2788:14, 2788:28,
2794:41, 2794:46, 2831:13, 2831:17,
2795:4, 2795:16, 2831:39, 2884:29
2795:22, 2795:27, defence [1] - 2832:31
2796:26, 2796:38, DefenceCare [72] -
2796:41, 2797:23, 2788:5, 2788:7,
2798:12, 2800:32, 2788:10, 2788:32,
2800:36, 2801:38, 2788:45, 2789:2,
2801:42, 2801:46, 2789:6, 2789:7,
2802:8, 2802:13, 2789:12, 2789:18,
2802:18, 2802:21, 2789:31, 2789:33,
2802:24, 2802:32, 2790:38, 2791:23,
2802:36, 2803:22, 2791:46, 2792:6,
2803:26, 2803:34, 2792:10, 2792:15,
2803:45, 2804:10, 2792:38, 2794:2,
.13/10/2017 (25) 7
Transcript produced by DTI
2794:11, 2795:38, describe [3] -
2792:13, 2792:21
described [9] -
2791:45, 2792:3,
2792:9, 2792:33,
2797:18, 2805:30,
2807:29, 2810:25,
2879:3
descriptions [1] -
2847:25
detail [4] - 2831:28,
2839:12, 2850:27,
2883:35
details [2] - 2845:8,
2876:33
devastating [1] -
2840:34
develop [3] - 2859:34,
2886:15, 2886:16
developed [5] -
2789:34, 2789:36,
2848:23, 2859:33,
2876:32
developing [2] -
2847:32, 2847:39
development [5] -
2830:11, 2831:25,
2831:28, 2880:4,
2886:9
diagnosed [2] -
2882:40, 2883:2
difference [1] -
2831:47
different [13] -
2788:22, 2789:32,
2799:45, 2808:9,
2829:14, 2833:39,
2839:27, 2839:36,
2848:27, 2859:36,
2862:37, 2884:8,
2884:10
differently [1] -
2827:30
difficult [4] - 2796:13,
2800:22, 2852:20,
2870:29
difficulty [1] - 2874:42
dig [1] - 2876:36
dinner [2] - 2860:33
direct [2] - 2789:41,
2789:45
directed [1] - 2820:14
direction [1] - 2789:30
directions [1] -
2828:45
directly [2] - 2847:5,
2848:34
disagree [1] - 2839:11
discharge [3] -
2832:43, 2884:31,
2884:35 2807:21, 2808:9, 2807:29, 2810:21,
2795:39, 2796:12, discovered [1] - 2823:1, 2823:3, 2810:22, 2813:41,
2809:42, 2810:28, 2796:34 2825:3, 2828:21, 2815:39, 2817:16,
2814:10, 2814:44, discovering [1] - 2831:43, 2832:21, 2818:6, 2827:5,
2817:42, 2819:36, 2797:9 2833:13, 2835:20, 2836:14, 2875:39,
2826:33, 2826:35, discuss [10] - 2815:1, 2840:26, 2840:45, 2877:30, 2882:42,
2826:36, 2827:31, 2815:28, 2815:31, 2865:29, 2867:43, 2887:44
2827:35, 2827:37, 2816:12, 2816:14, 2877:17 effectively [18] -
2828:16, 2828:21, 2816:26, 2831:11, done [25] - 2797:35, 2789:21, 2789:26,
2831:19, 2831:35, 2833:2, 2872:7, 2797:37, 2799:18, 2790:25, 2795:39,
2833:11, 2834:28, 2880:15 2800:26, 2801:33, 2804:10, 2819:17,
2839:6, 2839:13, discussed [13] - 2802:24, 2802:40, 2828:2, 2830:25,
2839:18, 2839:21, 2805:45, 2806:3, 2813:5, 2815:45, 2832:12, 2843:3,
2839:27, 2839:46, 2815:27, 2838:46, 2835:13, 2839:33, 2844:16, 2850:25,
2840:3, 2840:9, 2839:3, 2844:3, 2839:36, 2842:43, 2851:28, 2853:32,
2840:17, 2840:25, 2844:4, 2844:9, 2845:31, 2848:45, 2855:10, 2870:41,
2840:30, 2840:38, 2845:1, 2879:25, 2852:6, 2852:8, 2877:47, 2881:4
2840:41, 2840:43, 2883:10, 2884:28, 2852:10, 2863:19, eight [1] - 2863:11
2840:44, 2841:44, 2885:32 2868:7, 2868:45, either [11] - 2793:20,
2841:45, 2842:32, discussing [2] - 2869:24, 2871:23, 2802:39, 2804:28,
2842:38, 2843:1, 2816:22, 2817:7 2874:19, 2876:30 2811:43, 2815:31,
2843:2, 2844:10, discussion [7] - donor [2] - 2808:10, 2828:45, 2829:44,
2844:12, 2844:15, 2800:39, 2810:1, 2820:19 2840:46, 2849:26,
2844:20, 2853:24, 2810:5, 2817:32, donors [1] - 2817:29 2876:38, 2884:18
2853:29, 2884:41, 2817:34, 2859:9, door [2] - 2790:10, email [12] - 2830:44,
2885:1 2863:5 2790:12 2832:7, 2832:12,
deficiencies [8] - discussions [21] - dormant [3] - 2799:1, 2832:26, 2833:3,
2836:15, 2853:12, 2789:46, 2790:1, 2799:7, 2799:11 2863:21, 2863:30,
2857:17, 2862:6, 2810:14, 2816:10, doubt [1] - 2834:4 2880:37, 2880:44,
2865:21, 2873:17, 2816:38, 2816:40, down [7] - 2812:23, 2881:22, 2881:28,
2873:18, 2874:13 2817:38, 2817:43, 2825:5, 2839:46, 2881:40
degree [1] - 2878:21 2819:9, 2824:33, 2840:1, 2857:47, emailed [1] - 2837:33
Del [1] - 2864:12 2824:38, 2826:11, 2871:28, 2889:7 emails [4] - 2801:12,
delay [1] - 2884:32 2838:43, 2839:7, draft [1] - 2864:26 2801:18, 2831:31,
delegation [16] - 2844:39, 2846:41, draw [1] - 2874:4 2832:22
2830:44, 2859:31, 2846:44, 2870:28, drawn [1] - 2803:29 employed [6] -
2860:1, 2860:2, 2870:38, 2886:38, due [4] - 2813:10, 2818:18, 2827:17,
2860:4, 2860:6, 2889:14 2813:39, 2853:12, 2827:19, 2847:12,
2860:11, 2861:26, document [3] - 2887:1 2847:28, 2847:31
2863:14, 2863:15,
2863:16, 2863:19,
2863:23, 2863:25,
2863:29
2845:8, 2859:21,
2882:4
documentation [1] -
2827:4
employee [1] -
2788:42
employees [6] -
2809:34, 2817:4,
delineation [1] - documents [1] - E 2858:28, 2859:32,
2847:38 2887:39 2859:33, 2859:35
early [17] - 2794:28,
2794:47, 2795:3,
2798:9, 2799:20,
2799:32, 2822:24,
2826:21, 2834:8,
2835:6, 2836:29,
2863:44, 2877:36,
2882:46, 2885:5,
2886:47, 2887:2
earn [1] - 2840:38
easiest [1] - 2806:38
effect [18] - 2789:32,
2800:24, 2801:15,
2806:16, 2807:19,
deliver [1] - 2803:6 dollar [1] - 2860:46 employment [1] -
delivery [3] - 2840:15, donate [8] - 2807:37, 2827:18
2840:17, 2886:39 2807:41, 2819:41, enable [3] - 2839:16,
demand [5] - 2839:14, 2820:8, 2832:8, 2876:24, 2876:36
2839:17, 2839:20, 2842:2, 2842:8 encompass [2] -
2840:26, 2840:27 donated [2] - 2820:7, 2858:33, 2876:23
Department [2] - 2820:17 encompassing [1] -
2785:3, 2785:4 donation [6] - 2876:6
department [4] - 2807:15, 2807:22, encourages [1] -
2798:16, 2798:19, 2808:11, 2820:26, 2788:27
2820:15 2833:19, 2842:4 end [12] - 2795:17,
departure [1] - 2810:2 donations [21] - 2795:19, 2796:18,
dependants [3] - 2796:37, 2805:31, 2820:11, 2820:35,
2788:14, 2802:13, 2806:17, 2806:21, 2837:21, 2837:26,
2802:36 2806:29, 2806:45, 2863:7, 2867:20,
.13/10/2017 (25) 8
Transcript produced by DTI
2868:2, 2883:46, entities' [1] - 2842:36 2877:25, 2881:26,
2889:12, 2889:19
eWAY [3] - 2820:10,
2820:21, 2821:20
ex [13] - 2793:14,
2801:37, 2802:13,
2803:22, 2803:25,
2831:14, 2831:16,
2831:39, 2832:27,
2832:31, 2833:4,
2833:26, 2886:14
ex-defence [1] -
2832:31
ex-service [6] -
2793:14, 2803:22,
2803:25, 2831:14,
2831:16, 2886:14
ex-servicemen [2] -
2801:37, 2832:27
ex-serving [1] -
2831:39
exact [1] - 2882:43
exactly [1] - 2864:38
EXAMINATION [2] -
2786:22, 2885:28
examined [1] - 2874:6
example [7] - 2831:16,
2862:22, 2862:26,
2862:31, 2876:35,
2877:18, 2887:9
examples [1] -
2888:29
excellent [1] - 2839:24
except [2] - 2785:4,
2841:9
exception [1] -
2799:25
excluded [5] -
2789:22, 2789:26,
2797:22, 2804:31,
2804:34
excluding [1] -
2828:17
exclusive [1] -
2840:45
excuse [2] - 2812:13,
2829:7
Executive [2] -
2830:21, 2830:33
exemplar [1] -
2888:36
exercise [4] - 2821:22,
2859:29, 2874:5,
2875:43
Exhibit [3] - 2786:46,
2865:33, 2873:24
exhibit [1] - 2790:41
EXHIBIT [1] - 2787:2
exhibits [2] - 2786:38,
2786:46
EXHIBITS [1] - 2787:3 expose [1] - 2813:38
expressed [1] -
2872:17
extant [1] - 2837:46
extended [1] -
2839:37
extensive [1] -
2873:22
extent [6] - 2837:5,
2867:36, 2875:18,
2875:22, 2878:28,
2878:42
external [3] - 2820:22,
2864:2, 2868:14
externally [1] -
2845:33
extra [1] - 2788:40
extracted [1] - 2867:1
extraction [4] -
2866:11, 2866:34,
2866:45, 2873:35
extremely [1] - 2862:7
EY [15] - 2868:27,
2868:30, 2868:31,
2868:45, 2869:14,
2869:19, 2869:20,
2871:34, 2872:31,
2872:33, 2874:6,
2875:25, 2887:9,
2887:12
2884:2 entitled [1] - 2818:31 exist [1] - 2822:41
endeavouring [1] - entity [17] - 2803:4, expand [2] - 2875:45,
2842:20 2803:7, 2803:17, 2877:13
ending [1] - 2863:41 2804:23, 2839:7, expansion [1] -
endorsed [1] - 2839:23, 2839:36, 2863:16
2884:36 2839:44, 2840:4, expect [1] - 2859:21
endorsing [1] - 2842:39, 2842:40, expected [1] - 2798:8
2829:27 2884:21, 2884:24, expend [1] - 2860:43
engage [7] - 2803:5, 2884:26, 2884:41, expended [2] -
2825:45, 2849:5, 2884:46 2799:16, 2852:27
2870:37, 2884:14, envisage [2] - expenditure [21] -
2884:23, 2884:26 2840:41, 2843:27 2831:12, 2831:13,
engaged [20] - 2811:2, Enzo [1] - 2785:38 2859:8, 2859:33,
2847:19, 2848:10, Ernst [42] - 2845:38, 2859:35, 2860:1,
2848:14, 2848:18, 2857:16, 2857:22, 2860:7, 2860:10,
2866:11, 2866:32, 2857:37, 2861:13, 2860:19, 2860:25,
2870:37, 2872:33, 2861:18, 2862:3, 2860:42, 2861:22,
2873:35, 2874:29, 2865:7, 2865:24, 2862:8, 2862:10,
2874:35, 2875:26, 2865:27, 2866:10, 2862:19, 2862:23,
2884:11, 2884:15, 2866:30, 2866:44, 2862:24, 2863:18,
2885:22, 2885:30, 2867:21, 2867:24, 2863:24, 2865:10,
2885:39, 2886:11, 2867:32, 2868:3, 2873:21
2886:47 2868:7, 2868:8, expenditures [1] -
engagement [5] - 2868:12, 2869:30, 2862:13
2861:43, 2866:43, 2870:33, 2870:38, expense [6] - 2856:42,
2869:2, 2870:8, 2870:39, 2871:10, 2856:47, 2858:20,
2874:47 2871:23, 2871:37, 2862:16, 2862:45,
engaging [3] - 2872:8, 2872:25, 2863:8
2832:12, 2874:40, 2872:43, 2873:17, expenses [10] -
2886:38 2873:34, 2874:12, 2809:21, 2810:6,
F ensure [12] - 2808:3, 2874:17, 2874:21, 2810:10, 2810:22,
2814:43, 2816:10, 2874:22, 2874:23, 2820:40, 2820:41,
facilitate [1] - 2807:20
facility [1] - 2859:43
fact [27] - 2788:1,
2789:17, 2789:39,
2790:16, 2792:2,
2792:5, 2792:18,
2793:12, 2801:36,
2810:36, 2811:9,
2811:22, 2814:30,
2815:23, 2815:40,
2816:11, 2818:17,
2819:28, 2820:40,
2833:3, 2833:6,
2833:43, 2837:14,
2846:5, 2850:36,
2854:11, 2859:12
factor [1] - 2839:27
Fair [24] - 2837:44,
2838:11, 2838:26,
2838:31, 2845:18,
2845:19, 2845:40,
2877:41, 2877:47,
2878:10, 2878:25,
2878:32, 2878:39,
2879:11, 2879:12,
2879:16, 2879:26,
2816:36, 2842:27, 2874:29, 2874:35, 2856:43, 2858:15,
2869:32, 2870:25, 2874:47, 2875:16, 2858:44, 2861:14
2870:31, 2871:47, 2875:30 experience [1] -
2874:30, 2875:2, escapes [1] - 2864:39 2887:13
2887:19 essential [1] - 2805:9 experienced [1] -
ensuring [4] - established [2] - 2872:35
2816:11, 2819:30, 2839:15, 2841:34 expertise [4] -
2852:26, 2877:17 establishing [1] - 2851:40, 2851:42,
entering [1] - 2853:26 2840:24 2886:18, 2886:20
entertaining [1] - et [2] - 2813:4, explain [11] - 2787:38,
2860:22 2856:25 2789:35, 2799:28,
entire [6] - 2817:18, Evans [1] - 2885:8 2803:46, 2806:26,
2851:10, 2851:29, events [1] - 2849:1 2808:29, 2824:37,
2853:17, 2853:27, eventuate [1] - 2832:33, 2840:6,
2863:14 2845:36 2884:3, 2885:8
entirely [1] - 2805:24 evidence [26] - explained [7] -
entirety [6] - 2788:32, 2801:8, 2813:2, 2822:32, 2825:5,
2788:34, 2788:38, 2813:11, 2817:30, 2835:33, 2835:35,
2788:46, 2789:12, 2817:46, 2818:14, 2882:24, 2882:40,
2790:24 2829:42, 2830:16, 2883:10
entities [13] - 2803:6, 2830:24, 2833:42, explanation [7] -
2803:31, 2803:34, 2836:33, 2841:19, 2800:21, 2800:22,
2803:40, 2803:45, 2861:36, 2861:42, 2800:25, 2804:15,
2804:14, 2805:32, 2864:19, 2870:18, 2818:38, 2856:14,
2805:36, 2823:17, 2871:26, 2873:7, 2875:13
2839:1, 2842:16, 2874:17, 2874:34, explore [2] - 2814:34,
2842:21, 2845:13 2875:34, 2875:39, 2829:24
.13/10/2017 (25) 9
Transcript produced by DTI
2879:39, 2879:44, finances [10] -
2789:25, 2796:26,
2804:9, 2811:28,
2817:18, 2848:41,
2849:13, 2849:17,
2853:15, 2855:21
financial [65] -
2790:24, 2794:41,
2795:4, 2796:33,
2796:41, 2797:12,
2797:27, 2797:31,
2797:46, 2798:1,
2798:8, 2800:36,
2804:32, 2804:34,
2804:40, 2811:32,
2814:40, 2815:45,
2817:12, 2817:17,
2818:21, 2818:46,
2825:36, 2825:38,
2825:39, 2825:44,
2830:24, 2836:1,
2836:9, 2842:26,
2845:30, 2847:11,
2848:46, 2849:6,
2849:20, 2850:7,
2850:8, 2850:11,
2850:13, 2850:43,
2851:10, 2851:29,
2851:46, 2853:1,
2853:29, 2853:36,
2854:21, 2854:31,
2855:34, 2856:3,
2856:17, 2856:22,
2856:30, 2857:4,
2857:21, 2857:23,
2857:37, 2857:38,
2861:46, 2865:8,
2865:26, 2865:28,
2870:35, 2872:28,
2874:7
financially [3] -
2805:5, 2805:13,
2852:22
financials [1] -
2857:17
fine [1] - 2787:42
finish [1] - 2887:18
finished [1] - 2855:43
firm [1] - 2875:25
first [20] - 2798:4,
2798:27, 2799:39,
2808:36, 2810:9,
2815:6, 2815:23,
2815:35, 2830:41,
2830:47, 2834:7,
2843:9, 2845:37,
2847:29, 2849:31,
2849:35, 2876:38,
2877:3, 2881:13,
2885:6
firstly [1] - 2886:3 frames [1] - 2836:30
framework [1] -
2876:32
Friday [2] - 2785:27,
2889:31
front [2] - 2806:37,
2878:7
fruition [1] - 2816:25
full [7] - 2786:25,
2804:35, 2820:39,
2837:5, 2847:13,
2870:25, 2878:28
full-time [1] - 2847:13
fully [7] - 2787:34,
2836:18, 2837:4,
2837:22, 2856:37,
2875:21, 2878:20
function [5] - 2804:21,
2819:42, 2846:35,
2846:38, 2846:45
functional [1] -
2854:45
functionality [2] -
2852:19, 2853:25
functions [1] - 2868:3
fund [3] - 2798:36,
2840:25, 2840:29
Fund [1] - 2824:12
funded [1] - 2841:3
funding [1] - 2839:23
fundraise [13] -
2811:27, 2819:4,
2819:7, 2819:12,
2819:20, 2823:5,
2823:26, 2824:4,
2824:34, 2825:32,
2837:45, 2838:40,
2884:25
fundraisers [3] -
2814:44, 2816:13,
2818:43
fundraises [4] -
2816:15, 2824:22,
2828:20
fundraising [87] -
2807:19, 2810:27,
2811:2, 2811:6,
2811:37, 2811:38,
2814:11, 2814:14,
2814:18, 2814:21,
2814:35, 2815:3,
2815:6, 2815:34,
2816:23, 2816:25,
2816:28, 2817:22,
2819:10, 2819:20,
2819:45, 2821:5,
2822:47, 2823:9,
2823:13, 2824:26,
2824:27, 2824:43,
2824:44, 2824:46,
2824:47, 2825:14,
2825:22, 2825:29,
2825:46, 2826:13,
2828:17, 2832:13,
2832:17, 2833:9,
2833:13, 2833:19,
2833:23, 2835:8,
2835:16, 2836:40,
2837:29, 2837:45,
2838:33, 2840:2,
2840:5, 2841:5,
2841:6, 2841:45,
2841:46, 2842:4,
2842:6, 2842:7,
2843:32, 2843:37,
2843:41, 2843:45,
2844:28, 2844:29,
2844:32, 2844:37,
2845:41, 2845:42,
2846:7, 2846:23,
2846:24, 2846:25,
2846:32, 2847:1,
2856:12, 2856:38,
2857:5, 2857:34,
2857:35, 2868:16,
2870:26, 2871:32,
2872:35, 2876:35,
2879:34, 2880:17,
2884:24
Fundraising [26] -
2800:32, 2801:32,
2805:25, 2808:19,
2810:32, 2810:37,
2810:41, 2811:18,
2812:39, 2814:26,
2814:45, 2818:27,
2818:41, 2819:31,
2820:3, 2821:4,
2821:17, 2821:37,
2832:21, 2834:21,
2856:18, 2856:41,
2868:33, 2869:33,
2870:20, 2872:19
FUNDRAISING [1] -
2785:12
funds [10] - 2798:31,
2798:33, 2798:36,
2798:41, 2798:43,
2798:44, 2799:1,
2799:11, 2799:13,
2799:17
funeral [3] - 2840:31,
2840:33
future [1] - 2798:45
2880:2, 2880:6, fit [1] - 2842:33
2880:13, 2880:14, flag [1] - 2834:10
2880:21 flagged [1] - 2834:6
fair [1] - 2838:9 flexible [1] - 2852:25
familiar [3] - 2861:20, floor [1] - 2809:33
2861:38, 2861:40 floors [2] - 2809:40,
familiarising [1] - 2809:45
2861:32 flow [1] - 2804:40
families [3] - 2831:40, flowed [1] - 2835:28
2840:34, 2840:36 flowing [1] - 2835:21
family [1] - 2840:32 flux [1] - 2888:19
far [4] - 2861:42, focus [2] - 2876:38,
2876:43, 2883:46, 2883:15
2887:17 follow [2] - 2863:5,
fast [1] - 2842:12 2875:6
fault [1] - 2848:31 followed [1] - 2882:39
February [2] - following [2] -
2795:29, 2801:26 2824:34, 2882:46
February-March [1] - footer [4] - 2831:31,
2801:26 2831:35, 2832:31,
feed [1] - 2840:38 2833:3
feet [2] - 2812:41, forbidden [1] -
2839:19 2794:17
felt [7] - 2796:17, force [2] - 2853:9,
2817:27, 2818:42, 2859:26
2834:8, 2837:22, Force [2] - 2788:28,
2862:7, 2884:33 2831:39
few [3] - 2801:12, forced [1] - 2862:18
2876:44 forensic [5] - 2849:3,
fields [1] - 2876:36 2857:36, 2866:11,
figures [1] - 2860:46 2866:45, 2873:35
files [3] - 2798:41, form [11] - 2803:37,
2799:10, 2852:6 2803:44, 2807:46,
fill [1] - 2839:17 2819:13, 2837:5,
film [2] - 2806:13, 2842:25, 2860:39,
2806:22 2862:29, 2868:41,
final [1] - 2880:11 2869:20, 2876:19
finalised [3] - formal [7] - 2789:30,
2864:25, 2864:27, 2794:45, 2795:8,
2880:11 2795:11, 2810:26,
finance [35] - 2795:45, 2833:33, 2845:8
2796:1, 2796:3, formally [3] - 2795:7,
2796:6, 2796:19, 2795:22, 2866:30
2796:21, 2796:25, formed [1] - 2808:44
2797:13, 2797:18, former [1] - 2788:14
2797:22, 2797:28, forward [17] -
2797:36, 2798:11, 2842:32, 2842:33,
2815:42, 2819:28, 2846:1, 2855:2,
2820:11, 2820:14, 2863:10, 2868:8,
2820:16, 2820:18, 2868:12, 2874:31,
2820:31, 2821:12, 2875:3, 2875:7,
2821:16, 2847:27, 2875:12, 2877:31,
2847:42, 2847:46, 2880:3, 2880:17,
2847:47, 2849:38, 2885:9, 2886:37,
G 2855:19, 2856:34, 2886:43
2858:36, 2861:27, forwarded [1] -
2871:33
Finance [3] - 2785:3,
2785:5, 2821:23
2838:12
four [2] - 2865:44,
2882:5
GAI [2] - 2786:20,
2787:2
Gai [1] - 2786:26
.13/10/2017 (25) 10
Transcript produced by DTI
gain [3] - 2876:19, 2858:14
grant [2] - 2878:1,
2885:26
granted [3] - 2786:13,
2838:31, 2888:12
granting [1] - 2878:5
grants [4] - 2840:13,
2840:15, 2840:43,
2841:4
grey [3] - 2884:28,
2884:33, 2884:35
gross [2] - 2821:5,
2835:31
ground [1] - 2813:37
grouped [2] - 2867:42,
2867:43
grow [1] - 2841:40
growing [1] - 2841:35
guess [3] - 2841:47,
2842:38, 2886:35
guest [2] - 2860:30,
2860:36
guests [1] - 2860:22
guidance [2] - 2813:5,
2860:16
guidelines [9] -
2859:33, 2859:35,
2859:46, 2860:16,
2860:34, 2860:39,
2860:41, 2861:1,
2863:18
hear [2] - 2813:10, hope [3] - 2839:14, 2863:11
implemented [2] -
2856:35, 2863:9
importance [2] -
2818:2, 2840:21
important [1] -
2794:23
imposed [2] -
2814:22, 2814:26
imposes [1] - 2821:4
impression [1] -
2882:43
improve [4] - 2804:2,
2804:4, 2804:7,
2846:17
in-house [1] - 2804:28
inadequate [2] -
2836:10, 2852:23
include [4] - 2844:20,
2862:30, 2864:45,
2887:9
included [2] -
2813:14, 2832:32
includes [3] -
2791:13, 2805:19,
2856:22
including [5] -
2831:27, 2863:15,
2877:11, 2877:12,
2886:28
income [8] - 2817:28,
2840:12, 2840:20,
2840:22, 2840:38,
2840:40, 2842:10,
2865:30
increasingly [3] -
2796:32, 2835:23,
2836:31
incredibly [1] -
2839:14
indeed [2] - 2821:41,
2852:8
independence [1] -
2868:29
independent [6] -
2864:2, 2869:14,
2871:34, 2884:8,
2884:12, 2884:40
independently [1] -
2869:30
indicate [3] - 2813:36,
2860:31, 2860:35
indicated [1] -
2824:42
individual [2] -
2860:15, 2877:12
individuals [1] -
2888:31
inevitably [1] - 2842:2
infinitely [1] - 2839:17
2876:38, 2884:46 2884:6 2853:46, 2854:45
gateway [3] - 2820:12, heard [5] - 2813:32, hoping [1] - 2887:45
2820:13, 2830:13 2841:19, 2844:38, hospital [1] - 2798:36
Gaudry [1] - 2864:12 2882:38 host [1] - 2887:40
General [17] - Hearing [1] - 2785:16 House [3] - 2809:30,
2786:32, 2787:6, heavily [1] - 2841:6 2809:41, 2809:45
2787:10, 2787:14, held [3] - 2851:28, house [6] - 2804:28,
2789:40, 2792:21, 2851:38, 2876:40 2805:31, 2806:4,
2792:29, 2795:26, Held [1] - 2785:19 2806:16, 2806:21,
2795:39, 2795:40, Hellfire [1] - 2793:36 2807:47
2796:11, 2804:33, help [4] - 2849:6, Housie [2] - 2841:7,
2804:35, 2805:3, 2853:45, 2877:12, 2841:9
2844:42, 2850:4, 2882:18 HR [1] - 2795:45
2888:18 helpful [2] - 2797:5, hub [1] - 2807:46
general [14] - 2790:37, 2885:18 huge [1] - 2857:7
2791:46, 2792:4, helping [3] - 2832:42, Hyde [10] - 2808:27,
2792:5, 2792:10, 2886:9, 2886:10 2808:34, 2808:37,
2792:14, 2792:15, HERZFELD [27] - 2808:40, 2809:8,
2810:17, 2813:12, 2786:9, 2786:16, 2809:16, 2809:26,
2816:19, 2816:21, 2812:3, 2812:8, 2843:30, 2859:42,
2865:21, 2866:26, 2812:13, 2812:17, 2859:44
2867:13 2812:28, 2812:36,
I generally [2] - 2812:45, 2813:8,
2796:41, 2813:1 2813:17, 2813:22,
ID [2] - 2816:33,
2818:45
idea [2] - 2793:47,
2816:25
ideal [1] - 2841:25
identified [7] -
2836:25, 2836:47,
2873:17, 2877:26,
2878:11, 2878:26,
2879:40
identify [1] - 2836:26
identifying [4] -
2874:13, 2877:1,
2877:2, 2877:36
ignored [1] - 2829:37
ill [3] - 2793:13,
2793:16, 2884:31
illness [1] - 2882:41
imagine [3] - 2846:2,
2855:38, 2887:7
immediately [1] -
2837:33
imminent [1] -
2887:30
impact [2] - 2822:3,
2877:21
impacts [1] - 2841:26
implement [3] -
2832:44, 2856:28,
2863:4
implementation [7] -
2854:35, 2856:8,
2862:16, 2862:44,
2863:6, 2863:10,
generate [1] - 2856:11 2813:27, 2828:38,
given [23] - 2789:30, 2828:42, 2829:1,
2800:21, 2801:8, 2829:7, 2829:11,
2804:24, 2814:35, 2829:18, 2829:30,
2817:12, 2817:41, 2829:36, 2830:2,
2819:29, 2829:42, 2874:34, 2874:42,
2829:43, 2830:24, 2888:4, 2889:16,
2836:47, 2848:24, H 2889:24
2849:13, 2852:26, Herzfeld [13] -
2861:36, 2861:42,
2869:1, 2874:17,
2877:7, 2877:17,
hair [1] - 2799:46
half [1] - 2845:37
2786:10, 2786:14,
2811:47, 2812:26,
2812:34, 2812:42,
2879:38, 2880:1 hand [5] - 2788:33, 2813:15, 2813:29,
glean [1] - 2886:15 2841:21, 2865:43, 2828:35, 2829:34,
GM [1] - 2791:32 2865:46, 2873:27 2888:2, 2889:12,
goal [1] - 2804:4 handed [3] - 2851:30, 2889:26
goals [1] - 2804:2 2851:39, 2865:3 high [3] - 2829:26,
governance [21] - handle [1] - 2817:10 2839:14, 2854:16
2804:2, 2804:5, handled [4] - 2817:9, highlighted [2] -
2804:7, 2804:14, 2817:13, 2821:21, 2861:22, 2876:45
2804:20, 2804:26, 2821:22 hindsight [5] -
2834:16, 2842:36, handling [1] - 2787:20 2811:19, 2811:24,
2842:44, 2886:19, handover [1] - 2811:29, 2818:11,
2886:20, 2886:24, 2787:28 2836:34
2886:30, 2886:34, handover" [1] - historical [2] -
2886:35, 2886:36, 2787:30 2798:43, 2851:12
2887:36, 2887:41, hang [1] - 2850:15 historically [1] -
2888:23, 2888:29 hard [2] - 2811:19, 2804:8
governed [1] - 2842:11 hit [1] - 2810:11
2843:12 Hardman [1] - 2883:7 Hodges [1] - 2795:28
governing [1] - hardship [1] - 2840:36 hold [1] - 2884:31
2888:32 head [2] - 2855:40, holistically [1] -
government [1] - 2879:42 2870:36
2841:3 health [2] - 2793:16, Hon [1] - 2785:32
Grant [2] - 2799:26, 2883:19 honesty [1] - 2860:32
.13/10/2017 (25) 11
Transcript produced by DTI
inform [1] - 2878:32 2819:24, 2821:25,
2821:30, 2822:9,
2822:26, 2822:44,
2823:7, 2824:6,
2824:14, 2828:26,
2828:34, 2828:40,
2828:44, 2829:5,
2829:9, 2829:16,
2829:21, 2829:34,
2829:39, 2830:4,
2830:32, 2835:35,
2837:41, 2838:6,
2857:42, 2857:46,
2858:5, 2858:41,
2864:8, 2865:12,
2865:16, 2867:46,
2868:18, 2869:38,
2869:43, 2869:47,
2871:17, 2872:16,
2872:40, 2872:46,
2873:4, 2873:14,
2874:21, 2874:40,
2878:3, 2878:17,
2880:32, 2885:17,
2885:26, 2888:2,
2888:6, 2889:2,
2889:7, 2889:12,
2889:26, 2889:33
inquiries [4] -
2814:37, 2876:22,
2876:40, 2884:13
INQUIRY [2] -
2785:12, 2889:36
Inquiry [16] - 2786:25,
2805:23, 2809:17,
2813:40, 2825:47,
2826:9, 2833:22,
2837:43, 2841:19,
2863:43, 2868:42,
2872:24, 2879:30,
2886:2, 2886:33,
2888:7
insofar [2] - 2822:41,
2823:4
instance [16] -
2794:12, 2805:23,
2807:41, 2808:36,
2810:20, 2824:11,
2831:24, 2842:26,
2843:2, 2845:43,
2846:6, 2857:17,
2858:14, 2860:30,
2865:21, 2876:38
instances [1] -
2840:11
institution [1] -
2884:22
instructed [1] -
2883:39
instruction [1] -
2833:5
intend [2] - 2845:41,
2845:42
intended [5] -
2799:16, 2806:30,
2807:12, 2808:9,
2808:12
intending [3] -
2791:36, 2825:32,
2846:7
intent [2] - 2888:29,
2888:31
intention [3] -
2838:32, 2838:38,
2880:4
interact [1] - 2854:18
interaction [2] -
2809:40, 2809:42
interactions [1] -
2809:44
interacts [1] - 2854:19
interest [6] - 2864:20,
2864:24, 2864:30,
2864:42, 2864:46,
2887:40
interests [3] -
2864:45, 2865:2,
2865:5
interim [3] - 2832:39,
2832:40, 2863:9
internal [1] - 2845:31
internally [2] - 2861:5,
2871:24
interrupt [2] -
2872:47, 2874:34
interstate [2] - 2823:1,
2823:3
introduce [1] -
2862:16
introduced [3] -
2862:32, 2863:14,
2863:17
invaluable [1] -
2839:13
investigate [2] -
2834:15, 2881:15
investigated [2] -
2843:12, 2843:17
investigating [1] -
2849:19
invited [2] - 2832:8,
2882:10
invites [1] - 2807:5
invoices [1] - 2862:9
involved [26] -
2788:24, 2794:34,
2794:40, 2794:44,
2795:8, 2795:15,
2796:32, 2797:8,
2797:12, 2797:26,
2810:27, 2820:23,
2826:14, 2828:22,
2830:12, 2831:24,
2844:39, 2846:11,
2849:2, 2849:26,
2849:29, 2849:31,
2849:35, 2853:29,
2856:8, 2882:34
involvement [8] -
2790:20, 2798:23,
2827:7, 2828:2,
2830:29, 2834:41,
2843:41, 2862:3
irrespective [1] -
2819:27
isolation [1] - 2870:25
issue [32] - 2792:2,
2793:11, 2793:44,
2794:22, 2794:23,
2799:26, 2800:28,
2801:31, 2802:2,
2802:6, 2807:8,
2809:21, 2810:10,
2810:15, 2811:17,
2816:39, 2818:22,
2820:47, 2826:12,
2839:26, 2843:13,
2850:19, 2857:21,
2870:33, 2874:30,
2874:47, 2878:38,
2881:13, 2883:8,
2883:11
issued [3] - 2816:34,
2819:4, 2820:17
issues [65] - 2792:45,
2793:2, 2793:17,
2793:30, 2794:12,
2794:17, 2797:9,
2797:12, 2797:22,
2801:35, 2803:29,
2804:8, 2805:19,
2805:24, 2805:29,
2809:17, 2809:24,
2816:6, 2816:14,
2816:18, 2816:19,
2816:21, 2816:30,
2817:7, 2819:28,
2831:11, 2834:18,
2834:20, 2834:36,
2834:40, 2835:6,
2836:24, 2836:26,
2836:31, 2836:34,
2836:35, 2836:47,
2837:3, 2837:4,
2837:6, 2837:7,
2837:22, 2849:6,
2850:29, 2857:7,
2861:14, 2863:32,
2872:27, 2876:10,
2877:8, 2877:15,
2877:17, 2877:25,
informal [1] - 2815:47 2877:30, 2878:10,
informally [2] - 2878:25, 2878:34,
2880:40, 2880:42 2886:34, 2886:35,
information [22] - 2886:46, 2887:4,
2796:4, 2804:19, 2887:14, 2887:19
2804:22, 2804:23, issuing [4] - 2816:22,
2804:40, 2808:11, 2816:33, 2818:45,
2817:12, 2831:26, 2819:2
2833:14, 2838:30, IT [1] - 2795:45
2845:20, 2852:20, item [1] - 2860:27
2865:4, 2872:26, items [5] - 2856:42,
2876:19, 2876:21, 2859:47, 2860:2,
2876:33, 2876:39, 2860:15, 2862:9
2878:1, 2880:12, itself [7] - 2813:18,
2880:21 2840:5, 2841:34,
informed [4] - 2842:41, 2871:44,
2837:37, 2837:39, 2876:22, 2886:43
2873:7, 2880:22
J informing [1] -
2878:25
January [7] - 2795:29,
2836:29, 2847:6,
2882:6, 2882:17,
2882:18, 2885:2
Jeff [2] - 2864:47,
2865:3
Jennifer [1] - 2785:37
jigsaw [1] - 2853:39
John [3] - 2880:40,
2881:40, 2882:10
joined [2] - 2843:9,
2849:2
journey [2] - 2856:20,
2886:10
judgment [1] -
2888:40
July [17] - 2801:22,
2837:21, 2837:23,
2837:26, 2847:29,
2865:7, 2865:13,
2865:38, 2866:5,
2866:44, 2867:3,
2867:4, 2867:20,
2867:27, 2867:30,
2872:43, 2873:28
June [10] - 2799:33,
2799:41, 2800:11,
2801:21, 2801:22,
2801:29, 2847:28,
2855:42, 2855:44,
2885:6
inherent [1] - 2874:4
initial [2] - 2827:25,
2832:46
initiated [1] - 2841:5
injured [1] - 2884:31
Inn [9] - 2808:27,
2808:34, 2808:37,
2808:40, 2809:8,
2809:16, 2809:26,
2843:30, 2859:42
Inn's [1] - 2859:44
Innovation [2] -
2785:3, 2785:5
input [3] - 2838:44,
2842:45, 2849:23
Inquirer [11] -
2785:31, 2786:3,
2786:9, 2786:45,
2857:44, 2859:12,
2880:30, 2885:32,
2887:47, 2888:20,
2889:29
INQUIRER [88] -
2786:1, 2786:6,
2786:13, 2786:18,
2786:42, 2787:40,
2794:25, 2797:16,
2799:44, 2800:8,
2802:43, 2805:45,
2806:10, 2806:33,
2806:47, 2810:40,
2811:47, 2812:5,
2812:10, 2812:15,
K 2812:20, 2812:30,
2812:34, 2812:41,
2812:47, 2813:10,
2813:20, 2813:24,
2813:29, 2814:5,
2818:10, 2819:2,
keen [1] - 2803:43
keep [4] - 2798:45,
2816:40, 2841:35,
2852:6
.13/10/2017 (25) 12
Transcript produced by DTI
keeping [1] - 2816:6 2814:10, 2817:41, 2867:35, 2872:43
level [4] - 2786:29,
2790:5, 2850:27,
2862:24
Level [1] - 2785:20
levels [1] - 2862:30
liaison [1] - 2818:42
licence [3] - 2823:42,
2842:5, 2884:25
licences [5] - 2821:47,
2822:29, 2822:31,
2822:40, 2823:2
licensing [1] -
2821:41
LifeCare [7] - 2803:31,
2807:31, 2807:42,
2844:12, 2844:16,
2844:24, 2846:6
LifeCare's [1] -
2844:29
light [1] - 2802:6
likely [4] - 2855:27,
2871:29, 2876:9,
2887:43
likewise [2] - 2791:8,
2814:25
limit [5] - 2858:20,
2860:8, 2860:10,
2860:12
Limitations [2] -
2873:45, 2873:46
limitations [6] -
2866:21, 2866:32,
2866:33, 2866:35,
2867:10, 2874:5
Limited [3] - 2839:46,
2884:41, 2885:1
limited [11] - 2789:17,
2789:31, 2791:23,
2794:11, 2798:38,
2801:37, 2802:6,
2803:25, 2809:46,
2832:31, 2856:12
limits [1] - 2860:27
line [1] - 2803:8
lines [4] - 2803:18,
2803:39, 2805:28,
2805:36
list [1] - 2860:18
listening [1] - 2812:18
lists [1] - 2838:13
literally [1] - 2839:18
living [1] - 2809:25
look [18] - 2807:21,
2810:31, 2836:4,
2838:19, 2846:11,
2856:40, 2856:44,
2868:18, 2868:19,
2876:3, 2880:38,
2881:44, 2882:9,
2884:12, 2886:12,
2886:13, 2887:19,
2888:36
looked [9] - 2808:18,
2809:17, 2811:43,
2812:25, 2820:10,
2833:29, 2856:3,
2876:44, 2887:13
looking [27] - 2795:3,
2811:29, 2816:13,
2824:47, 2825:21,
2828:9, 2835:20,
2838:39, 2838:42,
2850:18, 2855:38,
2856:33, 2856:34,
2857:22, 2863:43,
2865:47, 2870:33,
2870:34, 2870:35,
2871:33, 2874:17,
2874:19, 2875:41,
2886:23, 2886:24,
2886:40, 2886:45
lost [1] - 2867:22
love [1] - 2839:20
lower [1] - 2855:34
LPI [1] - 2785:20
lunch [4] - 2860:37,
2860:43, 2870:19,
2871:26
LUNCHEON [1] -
2858:3
Luong [17] - 2815:10,
2815:13, 2815:16,
2815:27, 2815:46,
2816:4, 2816:7,
2816:38, 2817:7,
2817:37, 2819:9,
2822:23, 2826:16,
2826:27, 2826:31,
2830:13, 2846:21
Luong's [2] - 2815:23,
2846:24
2854:21, 2854:24,
Kells [1] - 2889:31 2821:3, 2821:9, 2854:30, 2854:31,
kept [2] - 2811:34, 2825:45, 2828:4, 2855:32, 2856:3,
2811:42 2839:38, 2841:20, 2856:21, 2861:46,
key [4] - 2876:19, 2843:44, 2844:23, 2862:17, 2862:45,
2876:33, 2876:36 2845:46, 2847:25, 2871:47
knowledge [9] - 2854:10, 2871:27, manager [27] -
2805:4, 2813:3, 2878:14, 2878:44, 2790:37, 2791:46,
2818:12, 2818:13, 2888:25 2792:4, 2792:5,
2827:46, 2836:37, leave [12] - 2786:13, 2792:10, 2792:14,
2878:41, 2879:15, 2794:28, 2797:45, 2796:3, 2796:6,
2879:17 2812:25, 2816:7, 2796:19, 2796:21,
known [4] - 2788:19, 2828:27, 2835:44, 2796:25, 2797:14,
2788:20, 2788:26, 2844:19, 2844:21, 2797:19, 2797:28,
2874:6 2872:16, 2880:33, 2797:36, 2798:11,
Kolomeitz [9] - 2885:26 2815:3, 2815:7,
2796:45, 2797:4, leaving [1] - 2872:47 2826:46, 2846:32,
2848:34, 2848:35, led [2] - 2834:18, 2846:42, 2847:27,
2848:42, 2849:5, 2875:1 2847:43, 2847:46,
2883:7, 2884:7, ledger [2] - 2865:21, 2847:47
2884:11 2866:26 Manager [18] -
Kolomeitz's [1] - left [6] - 2795:43, 2786:32, 2787:6,
2884:9 2814:38, 2840:32, 2787:10, 2787:14, 2844:19, 2844:21, 2789:40, 2792:15,
L 2883:5 2792:21, 2792:29,
legal [25] - 2803:4, 2795:26, 2795:39,
L-U-O-N-G [1] -
2815:14
lack [2] - 2793:15,
2811:28
lady [1] - 2799:45
2803:5, 2803:7,
2803:34, 2803:45,
2804:23, 2836:28,
2839:22, 2839:44,
2842:36, 2842:39,
2842:40, 2849:41,
2795:40, 2796:11,
2804:33, 2804:35,
2805:3, 2844:43,
2850:4, 2888:18
manager's [1] -
2797:36
larger [1] - 2794:32 2857:1, 2857:2, managing [1] -
last [16] - 2833:30, 2871:31, 2883:12, 2817:18
2837:10, 2837:19, 2884:5, 2884:6, manual [3] - 2862:18,
2837:22, 2841:9, 2884:8, 2884:23, 2862:32, 2863:9
2842:25, 2846:12, 2884:24, 2884:26, mapping [1] - 2867:2
2853:39, 2853:42, 2884:40, 2884:46 March [19] - 2798:29,
2855:19, 2855:20, legally [1] - 2823:43 2801:26, 2853:47,
2864:36, 2864:37,
2864:38, 2865:30,
2870:7
legislation [7] -
2812:25, 2856:27,
2856:38, 2856:41,
2854:10, 2854:32,
2854:37, 2854:40,
2854:43, 2854:44,
late [4] - 2795:38, 2868:16, 2870:26, 2854:46, 2855:1,
M 2878:17, 2878:19, 2871:33 2855:30, 2855:42,
2887:1 length [1] - 2884:32 2871:27, 2871:29,
Madam [9] - 2786:3,
2786:45, 2857:44,
2859:12, 2880:30,
2885:32, 2887:47,
2888:20, 2889:29
madam [1] - 2786:9
managed [4] -
2815:46, 2816:4,
2817:13, 2842:37
management [22] -
2787:44, 2796:41,
2804:39, 2817:16,
2818:21, 2853:16,
2853:19, 2853:23,
2853:36, 2853:41,
lawful [2] - 2856:42,
2856:47 letter [27] - 2819:13,
2819:14, 2820:19,
2883:21, 2883:32,
2888:25, 2888:39
lawyer [1] - 2882:18 2838:16, 2838:22, March/April [1] -
leading [2] - 2854:43, 2845:17, 2865:12, 2799:23
2854:45 2865:20, 2865:28, marketing [8] -
leads [1] - 2804:3 2865:31, 2865:33, 2815:3, 2815:6,
learning [3] - 2787:26, 2865:34, 2865:37, 2846:22, 2846:24,
2787:37, 2841:15 2866:5, 2866:37, 2846:25, 2846:34,
learnings [1] - 2866:43, 2867:15, 2846:35, 2846:42
2856:19 2867:20, 2867:30, match [1] - 2877:18
least [26] - 2787:24, 2867:38, 2868:2, material [3] - 2837:42,
2788:4, 2788:5, 2868:29, 2868:36, 2868:40, 2869:19
2795:25, 2802:16, 2869:2, 2873:28, matrix [18] - 2858:20,
2802:40, 2803:38, 2877:46, 2880:6 2858:23, 2858:25,
2805:35, 2811:1, letters [3] - 2867:24, 2858:28, 2858:33,
.13/10/2017 (25) 13
Transcript produced by DTI
2858:35, 2858:44, 2800:44, 2801:4, 2868:23
might [11] - 2800:44,
2812:21, 2832:22,
2834:20, 2847:29,
2851:20, 2864:33,
2880:33, 2884:38,
2887:9
mind [6] - 2810:18,
2811:16, 2816:30,
2840:29, 2847:34,
2879:46
Minister [2] - 2888:11
minute [2] - 2812:13,
2862:17
minutes [2] - 2833:46,
2882:38
misleading [1] -
2825:14
mistaken [2] -
2799:35, 2799:38
mistakes [1] - 2888:32
misunderstanding [1]
- 2812:24
misunderstood [1] -
2814:38
mixed [1] - 2806:33
model [14] - 2839:24,
2840:9, 2840:42,
2841:11, 2841:22,
2841:25, 2842:31,
2843:4, 2843:24,
2843:27, 2843:44,
2843:47, 2844:6,
2844:33
modifiable [1] -
2853:23
modifications [2] -
2849:38, 2850:33
moment [20] -
2799:18, 2802:33,
2803:14, 2807:5,
2812:23, 2813:2,
2813:12, 2825:10,
2829:7, 2839:18,
2845:19, 2847:39,
2851:45, 2860:2,
2861:21, 2861:31,
2861:37, 2872:47,
2885:15, 2888:16
money [17] - 2799:15,
2817:8, 2817:21,
2817:33, 2820:6,
2820:8, 2820:13,
2820:15, 2820:21,
2820:26, 2820:34,
2834:45, 2835:9,
2835:24, 2835:28,
2835:29, 2835:39
moneys [5] - 2807:12,
2807:14, 2807:16,
2852:26, 2865:29 2878:24, 2880:29,
2859:7, 2859:8, 2801:21, 2801:29, month [6] - 2799:22, 2885:20, 2885:28,
2859:31, 2861:26, 2830:39, 2834:13, 2830:41, 2831:9, 2885:30, 2887:47,
2863:15, 2863:16, 2855:19, 2858:41, 2837:20, 2861:6, 2888:4, 2889:5,
2863:20, 2863:23, 2859:10, 2859:19, 2864:37 2889:16, 2889:18,
2863:25, 2863:29 2863:39, 2864:28, monthly [3] - 2798:2, 2889:24, 2889:29
matter [24] - 2786:34, 2864:32, 2881:14, 2798:15, 2830:39 MS [1] - 2787:2
2794:2, 2801:15, 2881:27, 2881:39, months [7] - 2857:3, Mulliner [24] -
2808:18, 2812:22, 2882:30, 2883:9, 2859:34, 2864:38, 2790:25, 2794:27,
2817:42, 2818:22, 2883:21, 2883:22, 2882:37, 2883:31, 2794:37, 2797:42,
2819:32, 2820:30, 2883:23, 2884:17, 2885:5 2797:45, 2798:6,
2821:10, 2828:35, 2884:27, 2884:38, morning [1] - 2830:16 2799:37, 2815:31,
2829:34, 2830:41, 2884:39, 2885:6 most [4] - 2803:2, 2815:33, 2815:40,
2839:29, 2839:32, meetings [6] - 2796:4, 2816:15, 2819:8, 2817:33, 2817:34,
2841:47, 2844:39, 2801:8, 2801:11, 2889:21 2817:38, 2817:43,
2857:22, 2860:22, 2830:43, 2846:44, move [10] - 2801:16, 2818:4, 2818:11,
2868:4, 2868:6, 2887:38 2839:6, 2844:24, 2818:17, 2820:11,
2872:8, 2883:27, meets [2] - 2845:32, 2853:15, 2853:17, 2822:31, 2827:26,
2887:30 2869:32 2853:27, 2855:14, 2830:14, 2835:43,
matters [21] - 2787:20, member [5] - 2798:28, 2855:20, 2888:29 2883:10, 2883:12
2796:37, 2797:8, 2820:7, 2863:21, moved [2] - 2844:15, Mulliner's [1] - 2796:2
2802:40, 2804:32, 2864:13, 2884:46 2850:43 must [1] - 2799:17
2804:34, 2808:4, members [7] - movement [1] -
N 2816:7, 2816:19, 2788:27, 2798:42, 2853:32
2816:32, 2818:26,
2831:13, 2831:17,
2831:22, 2839:22,
2849:37, 2878:44,
2879:26, 2886:27,
2887:36, 2887:40
meal [1] - 2860:31
mean [16] - 2787:23,
2843:15, 2863:22,
2884:30, 2886:14
membership [1] -
2853:22
memory [2] - 2806:44,
2847:20
mental [1] - 2793:16
mention [2] - 2825:3,
moves [1] - 2887:25
MR [81] - 2786:3,
2786:9, 2786:16,
2786:22, 2786:24,
2786:45, 2787:5,
2787:42, 2794:27,
2797:18, 2800:11,
2802:47, 2806:12,
Nair [22] - 2847:47,
2848:4, 2848:10,
2848:24, 2849:9,
2849:22, 2849:26,
2849:43, 2850:18,
2850:29, 2852:29,
2855:46, 2856:3,
2856:8, 2856:34,
2861:43, 2862:15,
2863:5, 2865:12,
2884:10, 2884:12,
2884:13
Nair's [1] - 2849:5
name [12] - 2786:10,
2786:25, 2788:22,
2806:35, 2815:23,
2827:45, 2854:26,
2854:27, 2859:44,
2862:27, 2862:30,
2864:12
named [1] - 2885:43
names [1] - 2887:29
naming [1] - 2887:29
narrative [2] -
2867:30, 2867:31
national [1] - 2788:41
National [3] - 2788:43,
2795:28, 2795:33
nationally [1] -
2824:42
nature [1] - 2888:6
Navision [38] -
2850:13, 2850:44,
2850:45, 2851:4,
2851:11, 2852:13,
2787:30, 2790:8, 2825:4 2806:37, 2807:8,
2798:1, 2798:34, mentioned [9] - 2810:47, 2812:3,
2806:27, 2820:22, 2798:15, 2820:21, 2812:8, 2812:13,
2821:46, 2823:43, 2823:29, 2824:46, 2812:17, 2812:28,
2825:30, 2828:12, 2825:1, 2825:13, 2812:36, 2812:45,
2833:9, 2834:26, 2826:16, 2829:31, 2813:8, 2813:17,
2851:6, 2852:16, 2881:39 2813:22, 2813:27,
2866:32 messages [1] - 2814:7, 2818:17,
means [1] - 2824:44 2806:33 2819:27, 2821:33,
meant [4] - 2794:40, met [8] - 2799:10, 2822:28, 2823:9,
2795:25, 2849:2, 2799:33, 2799:41, 2824:8, 2824:16,
2853:22 2814:44, 2816:12, 2828:24, 2828:38,
measure [2] - 2838:14, 2868:15, 2828:42, 2829:1,
2863:10, 2888:23 2883:31 2829:7, 2829:11,
measured [1] - Microsoft [10] - 2829:18, 2829:30,
2888:41 2850:13, 2850:45, 2829:36, 2830:2,
media [2] - 2810:11, 2851:4, 2853:18, 2830:9, 2830:37,
2810:12 2854:3, 2854:4, 2835:38, 2838:8,
medical [1] - 2832:43 2854:14, 2854:15, 2857:44, 2858:8,
meet [6] - 2839:20, 2854:26, 2854:27 2858:43, 2859:1,
2840:27, 2840:35, mid [1] - 2887:1 2864:11, 2865:18,
2853:23, 2856:18, mid-2014 [2] - 2868:1, 2869:40,
2881:17 2826:42, 2883:2 2869:45, 2870:4,
meeting [34] - mid-September [1] - 2871:21, 2872:42,
2799:31, 2799:35, 2887:1 2873:2, 2873:16,
2799:37, 2799:40, middle [6] - 2791:32, 2874:26, 2874:34,
2799:45, 2800:11, 2794:33, 2794:47, 2874:38, 2874:42,
2800:41, 2800:43, 2795:7, 2846:12, 2874:44, 2878:5,
.13/10/2017 (25) 14
Transcript produced by DTI
2852:14, 2852:16, 2853:23, 2853:28, 2876:20, 2876:46,
2877:1, 2877:2,
2877:4, 2877:8,
2877:11, 2878:15,
2878:20, 2878:46,
2879:31, 2879:39
non-compliance [17] -
2834:36, 2836:25,
2836:27, 2845:44,
2875:22, 2876:20,
2876:46, 2877:1,
2877:2, 2877:4,
2877:8, 2877:11,
2878:15, 2878:20,
2878:46, 2879:31,
2879:39
non-financial [1] -
2815:45
non-members [2] -
2843:15
none [2] - 2817:4,
2861:27
normally [3] -
2824:41, 2860:43,
2875:21
Northcote [2] -
2852:29
not-for-profit [2] -
2886:6, 2886:7
note [3] - 2813:12,
2813:24, 2825:44
Note [1] - 2785:2
noted [1] - 2813:36
notes [2] - 2826:1,
2826:8
nothing [13] -
2799:18, 2802:24,
2802:40, 2810:17,
2813:4, 2844:47,
2868:45, 2871:9,
2871:18, 2871:23,
2882:38, 2883:19
notice [1] - 2826:7
notified [3] - 2878:10,
2879:15, 2879:26
notify [3] - 2845:43,
2878:38, 2879:12
notifying [2] -
2828:46, 2879:38
noting [1] - 2813:41
November [8] -
2809:18, 2809:29,
2815:7, 2832:37,
2839:43, 2863:44,
2881:28, 2887:2
November/
December [1] -
2884:18
NSW [140] - 2787:11,
2787:15, 2787:24,
2787:26, 2787:33,
2791:33, 2796:7,
2796:25, 2798:11,
2798:20, 2803:31,
2804:10, 2808:41,
2809:34, 2810:15,
2817:10, 2817:17,
2817:23, 2818:18,
2819:29, 2820:30,
2821:23, 2827:3,
2827:17, 2827:44,
2830:21, 2830:25,
2830:29, 2830:33,
2835:22, 2835:25,
2836:9, 2839:1,
2842:20, 2842:28,
2842:33, 2842:42,
2843:3, 2843:12,
2843:14, 2843:22,
2843:28, 2843:30,
2843:40, 2843:45,
2844:32, 2844:36,
2844:43, 2846:43,
2847:12, 2848:1,
2848:7, 2848:47,
2849:10, 2849:14,
2849:18, 2849:38,
2850:11, 2850:36,
2851:28, 2851:30,
2852:45, 2853:3,
2855:10, 2855:15,
2855:20, 2855:32,
2857:18, 2857:28,
2857:29, 2857:36,
2858:10, 2858:19,
2858:29, 2861:14,
2861:19, 2861:27,
2861:31, 2861:32,
2861:39, 2862:5,
2862:8, 2862:36,
2862:40, 2863:7,
2863:22, 2863:28,
2863:46, 2864:31,
2864:42, 2865:4,
2865:8, 2873:16,
2873:19, 2874:14,
2874:19, 2874:23,
2875:6, 2875:12,
2875:19, 2875:22,
2875:26, 2875:31,
2875:35, 2875:40,
2875:41, 2875:44,
2876:1, 2876:2,
2876:5, 2876:13,
2876:40, 2877:2,
2877:21, 2877:31,
2879:30, 2879:34,
2879:40, 2879:41,
2879:46, 2880:26,
2884:44, 2884:45,
2885:23, 2885:31,
2885:35, 2885:39,
2852:23, 2852:25, 2856:26, 2863:38, 2885:46, 2886:5,
2852:30, 2852:36, 2870:20, 2878:1 2886:11, 2886:15,
2854:19, 2854:21, negotiations [1] - 2886:23, 2886:29,
2855:21, 2855:23, 2889:13 2886:39, 2887:5,
2855:43, 2855:47, net [2] - 2835:24, 2887:21, 2887:25,
2856:11, 2856:37, 2835:30 2888:28
2861:24, 2861:47, never [8] - 2801:30, NSW) [10] - 2786:32,
2862:37, 2863:6, 2815:39, 2817:32, 2795:46, 2797:40,
2868:13, 2868:32, 2818:7, 2818:10, 2817:14, 2843:25,
2869:31, 2870:13, 2827:4, 2882:34, 2848:33, 2872:42,
2870:16, 2870:21, 2883:44 2873:36, 2885:21,
2870:22, 2872:2, New [16] - 2785:23, 2885:44
2872:18, 2875:36, 2821:38, 2823:10, NSW)'s [2] - 2853:21,
2875:40, 2876:3, 2823:13, 2823:31, 2855:37
2888:37 2824:4, 2824:22, number [27] -
NAVISION [1] - 2824:27, 2824:35, 2790:41, 2796:44,
2850:47 2824:45, 2825:1, 2798:35, 2798:39,
nearly [1] - 2880:10 2825:22, 2825:29, 2815:33, 2816:26,
necessarily [10] - 2825:33, 2845:40, 2834:7, 2836:15,
2804:20, 2816:21, 2850:26 2838:39, 2838:42,
2838:35, 2839:22, new [28] - 2803:4, 2838:47, 2839:19,
2841:24, 2841:30, 2803:5, 2803:7, 2840:14, 2840:23,
2842:6, 2842:11, 2803:17, 2831:14, 2841:4, 2841:12,
2843:29, 2872:4 2839:44, 2845:30, 2843:36, 2846:41,
necessary [1] - 2845:34, 2848:23, 2856:43, 2857:7,
2805:16 2852:40, 2852:42, 2858:9, 2877:22,
need [34] - 2804:19, 2853:6, 2854:24, 2877:23, 2884:13,
2806:40, 2807:4, 2856:3, 2873:5, 2885:22, 2885:43,
2815:12, 2821:10, 2875:17, 2875:24, 2886:8
2821:47, 2838:14, 2884:21, 2884:23, numbering [1] -
2840:25, 2841:27, 2884:24, 2884:40, 2816:33
2841:30, 2841:35, 2884:46, 2886:15, numbers [1] - 2865:46
2841:37, 2841:40, 2886:16, 2888:31 numerous [1] -
2842:3, 2843:29, next [30] - 2787:40, 2846:40
2847:34, 2851:20, 2794:25, 2853:47, NWBI [1] - 2869:32
2851:42, 2854:34, 2854:10, 2854:32,
O 2856:21, 2856:33, 2854:37, 2854:40,
2856:40, 2858:30, 2854:43, 2854:44,
O'Brien [2] - 2864:47,
2865:3
o'clock [1] - 2857:42
oath [1] - 2829:42
object [2] - 2812:11,
2813:37
objection [7] -
2812:37, 2813:1,
2813:12, 2813:15,
2813:24, 2813:41,
2864:9
objections [1] -
2813:41
objects [20] - 2801:36,
2802:7, 2802:8,
2802:17, 2802:31,
2803:3, 2803:5,
2803:7, 2803:8,
2803:25, 2828:38,
2829:23, 2832:30,
2832:36, 2839:26,
2858:45, 2871:47, 2854:46, 2855:1,
2872:1, 2872:4, 2855:30, 2855:42,
2875:7, 2876:2, 2855:44, 2859:10,
2876:24, 2876:38, 2859:19, 2863:12,
2877:23, 2877:32, 2863:39, 2864:27,
2884:31 2877:4, 2879:44,
needed [24] - 2793:40, 2879:45, 2880:8,
2794:36, 2799:7, 2881:25, 2882:4,
2800:26, 2803:8, 2883:4, 2884:3,
2811:26, 2811:43, 2889:22, 2889:29
2815:45, 2816:30, nine [1] - 2857:3
2816:39, 2816:40, no" [1] - 2842:12
2818:15, 2825:5, no-one [1] - 2840:32
2830:40, 2831:2, nominated [1] -
2831:13, 2836:27, 2820:14
2848:44, 2852:21, nomination [1] -
2882:44, 2886:15, 2873:6
2886:42, 2887:39 non [20] - 2815:45,
needs [11] - 2804:4, 2834:36, 2836:25,
2822:42, 2841:38, 2836:27, 2843:15,
2842:36, 2842:42, 2845:44, 2875:22,
.13/10/2017 (25) 15
Transcript produced by DTI
2839:37, 2841:38, 2848:27, 2849:32,
2849:46
often [5] - 2819:10,
2830:44, 2830:47,
2831:8, 2842:7
old [1] - 2855:11
omitted [1] - 2885:47
once [5] - 2818:46,
2875:21, 2875:40,
2887:4
one [73] - 2788:5,
2788:33, 2789:7,
2789:8, 2790:9,
2791:14, 2793:3,
2793:36, 2797:1,
2798:36, 2798:42,
2799:9, 2799:40,
2801:20, 2801:22,
2801:35, 2803:29,
2803:43, 2804:2,
2804:8, 2805:29,
2807:15, 2809:17,
2809:24, 2809:35,
2811:32, 2812:13,
2817:11, 2819:18,
2820:9, 2830:18,
2833:12, 2833:29,
2834:5, 2834:15,
2834:16, 2834:19,
2834:40, 2835:6,
2837:22, 2838:40,
2840:13, 2840:32,
2840:41, 2840:43,
2840:44, 2841:21,
2841:35, 2842:3,
2842:14, 2843:1,
2843:10, 2844:3,
2844:23, 2847:36,
2848:18, 2849:29,
2849:37, 2850:25,
2856:26, 2860:41,
2861:12, 2862:31,
2863:19, 2863:32,
2867:27, 2873:4,
2886:8, 2886:22,
2886:27, 2887:24,
2887:34, 2888:39
one-page [1] -
2860:41
one-year [1] - 2848:18
ones [1] - 2825:42
ongoing [1] - 2857:9
online [4] - 2816:45,
2820:17, 2851:4,
2851:6
onwards [1] - 2811:1
operate [2] - 2832:45
operated [5] -
2834:14, 2834:25,
2834:29, 2850:22,
2852:36 2849:3 2880:45
paragraph [13] -
2806:39, 2807:21,
2807:30, 2838:19,
2845:25, 2869:41,
2870:2, 2870:4,
2870:8, 2873:31,
2874:2, 2881:33,
2881:45
pardon [5] - 2824:16,
2867:46, 2868:1,
2869:45, 2872:46
Park [10] - 2808:27,
2808:34, 2808:37,
2808:40, 2809:8,
2809:16, 2809:26,
2843:30, 2859:42,
2859:44
part [32] - 2788:13,
2788:18, 2788:43,
2794:44, 2799:21,
2805:35, 2808:40,
2821:22, 2824:19,
2832:16, 2833:5,
2833:43, 2836:4,
2836:6, 2841:8,
2842:24, 2842:39,
2842:40, 2843:6,
2843:25, 2844:10,
2844:20, 2847:11,
2849:22, 2853:19,
2854:15, 2883:22,
2884:18, 2884:45,
2886:12, 2887:12
participate [1] -
2788:28
particular [17] -
2789:7, 2800:28,
2800:41, 2804:21,
2806:30, 2817:29,
2844:6, 2845:13,
2858:25, 2859:47,
2861:13, 2861:14,
2868:4, 2868:6,
2884:28, 2886:31,
2887:6
particularly [3] -
2800:6, 2858:15,
2862:11
partly [3] - 2787:24,
2787:36, 2787:37
parts [2] - 2788:5,
2789:7
Pass [1] - 2793:36
passed [4] - 2799:8,
2799:9, 2835:39,
2885:2
past [1] - 2857:2
pause [1] - 2822:22
pay [1] - 2840:33
2849:40, 2884:23, operates [1] - 2846:17 originally [5] -
2884:34 operating [6] - 2853:20, 2863:4,
obligation [2] - 2812:43, 2835:17, 2863:5, 2882:23,
2811:39, 2814:43 2848:27, 2849:32, 2882:27
obligations [7] - 2849:46, 2875:20 ought [5] - 2817:43,
2814:27, 2814:36, operation [3] - 2818:3, 2819:29,
2814:38, 2814:40, 2815:44, 2855:27, 2836:35, 2880:22
2814:41, 2815:1, 2888:37 ourselves [1] -
2832:20 Operational [3] - 2880:46
observations [2] - 2833:35, 2833:39, outline [2] - 2802:29,
2866:25, 2867:14 2834:13 2867:9
obtain [2] - 2849:20, operational [4] - outscored [1] -
2881:32 2834:2, 2836:14, 2818:22
obtained [1] - 2857:16 2837:11, 2837:13 outside [10] - 2794:2,
obviously [4] - operations [2] - 2794:6, 2795:35,
2813:17, 2829:3, 2841:12, 2848:1 2801:10, 2814:41,
2829:30, 2842:46 opinion [2] - 2871:39, 2818:47, 2823:13,
occasion [2] - 2875:9 2829:23, 2830:44,
2815:34, 2816:22 opportunity [2] - 2870:22
occasional [2] - 2849:4, 2875:41 outsource [3] -
2819:18, 2830:43 option [4] - 2803:11, 2804:21, 2804:25,
occasionally [3] - 2803:13, 2839:10, 2805:24
2817:28, 2819:4, 2843:22 outsourced [3] -
2831:19 options [7] - 2838:40, 2795:46, 2819:28,
occasions [4] - 2838:42, 2838:43, 2830:25
2794:14, 2830:40, 2838:46, 2838:47, overall [2] - 2787:44,
2840:23 2839:3, 2840:13 2860:1
occupation [1] - orally [1] - 2801:31 overarching [1] -
2786:31 order [3] - 2811:42, 2857:6
occur [2] - 2832:7, 2870:19, 2874:30 oversight [2] -
2832:11 ordinarily [1] - 2811:28, 2820:36
occurred [2] - 2860:47 overview [1] - 2848:46
2791:42, 2839:42 organisation [23] - own [9] - 2809:2,
occurring [3] - 2804:36, 2808:10, 2809:13, 2835:3,
2848:47, 2885:35, 2822:33, 2839:28, 2841:45, 2843:37,
2885:40 2841:2, 2841:17, 2851:46, 2855:23,
October [12] - 2843:10, 2844:11, 2855:25, 2872:18
2785:27, 2786:35, 2848:46, 2849:2,
P 2816:43, 2845:35, 2852:22, 2852:24,
2849:36, 2858:39, 2852:26, 2862:6,
page [15] - 2860:41,
2865:36, 2865:41,
2865:43, 2866:2,
2866:18, 2866:21,
2866:37, 2866:38,
2868:20, 2873:27,
2881:27, 2881:44,
2883:21
pages [2] - 2865:44,
2873:45
paid [6] - 2808:26,
2808:37, 2809:8,
2820:29, 2835:9,
2835:32
paint [1] - 2878:28
Palmer [3] - 2826:46,
2827:14, 2827:17
paper [2] - 2806:34,
2859:19, 2863:42, 2863:14, 2880:18,
2869:3, 2884:15, 2886:4, 2886:7,
2887:1, 2887:45 2886:16, 2886:41,
OCTOBER [1] - 2886:42, 2886:43,
2889:37 2887:41
OF [1] - 2787:2 organisation's [2] -
offence [1] - 2813:39 2886:13, 2886:36
offer [2] - 2833:18, organisational [3] -
2840:14 2790:42, 2790:43,
Office [6] - 2853:18, 2791:28
2854:4, 2854:15, organisations [13] -
2854:28, 2880:13, 2805:29, 2824:3,
2880:14 2824:6, 2824:8,
office [2] - 2854:14, 2831:14, 2831:17,
2865:2 2849:47, 2886:8,
Officer [2] - 2830:21, 2886:9, 2886:14,
2830:33 2888:18, 2888:24,
officer [6] - 2841:7, 2888:38
2841:10, 2848:1, organising [1] -
.13/10/2017 (25) 16
Transcript produced by DTI
payable [1] - 2856:25 2881:16, 2884:10 2815:35, 2829:36, 2876:20, 2878:32,
2880:16, 2886:39
potentially [5] -
2839:5, 2839:6,
2840:24, 2840:36,
2880:16
practice [3] - 2808:15,
2808:45, 2823:45
precisely [1] - 2856:32
predates [2] - 2791:5,
2791:9
preferable [1] -
2839:18
preliminary [1] -
2886:35
preparation [2] -
2825:47, 2836:28
prepare [1] - 2790:44
prepared [8] -
2786:34, 2790:41,
2791:19, 2797:31,
2798:40, 2799:38,
2826:9, 2858:9
preparing [2] -
2797:46, 2798:16
pres [1] - 2829:12
present [4] - 2799:33,
2819:16, 2845:1,
2866:47
presentation [1] -
2800:35
presently [1] -
2829:22
President [2] -
2858:15, 2858:34
presumably [4] -
2818:31, 2827:39,
2859:1, 2872:7
presume [3] -
2811:47, 2819:12,
2888:7
presumed [4] -
2798:5, 2817:27,
2835:16, 2866:34
prevent [1] - 2805:41
previous [6] -
2791:14, 2841:2,
2841:14, 2852:24,
2853:13, 2855:7
previously [3] -
2788:22, 2874:6,
2884:11
primarily [1] - 2853:17
Prince [1] - 2785:22
principle [2] -
2884:46, 2884:47
prioritised [1] -
2855:33
priority [1] - 2855:34
probability [2] -
2829:26, 2829:27
paying [1] - 2808:31 Perrin [17] - 2793:6, 2851:12, 2851:15, problem [8] - 2810:6,
payment [3] - 2793:11, 2827:26, 2851:16, 2870:34, 2812:30, 2813:12,
2820:12, 2820:13, 2830:17, 2830:28, 2874:18 2817:46, 2817:47,
2830:13 2830:42, 2830:43, points [1] - 2815:34 2839:38, 2873:8,
payments [1] - 2831:1, 2831:2, policies [11] - 2883:19
2807:30 2831:11, 2831:15, 2856:23, 2857:5, problems [7] -
payroll [17] - 2845:31, 2831:24, 2882:24, 2864:20, 2870:15, 2800:14, 2848:41,
2852:36, 2852:37, 2882:39, 2882:40, 2872:34, 2879:45, 2850:29, 2866:25,
2852:40, 2852:44, 2883:4 2880:5, 2880:10, 2875:19, 2877:36,
2852:45, 2853:2, Perrin's [1] - 2793:8 2880:12, 2880:15, 2880:34
2853:6, 2853:13, person [8] - 2815:16, 2887:38 procedures [18] -
2853:15, 2853:36, 2847:19, 2847:36, policy [6] - 2860:18, 2856:23, 2856:36,
2853:40, 2854:16, 2862:30, 2864:2, 2860:23, 2860:27, 2857:5, 2861:25,
2855:34, 2855:37, 2864:6, 2864:11, 2864:24, 2864:30, 2861:33, 2867:9,
2855:44, 2872:2 2881:18 2864:42 2868:32, 2869:31,
pecuniary [2] - personal [2] - poor [3] - 2804:20, 2870:15, 2872:34,
2865:1, 2865:5 2871:39, 2875:9 2852:20, 2853:24 2875:17, 2879:45,
peer [2] - 2840:18 personally [5] - Poppy [21] - 2795:12, 2880:5, 2880:10,
penalty [1] - 2813:39 2786:11, 2806:8, 2810:26, 2816:3, 2880:12, 2880:15,
pending [2] - 2862:16, 2821:1, 2863:21, 2823:29, 2823:34, 2887:38, 2888:30
2879:10 2880:8 2824:41, 2824:44, proceed [4] - 2836:22,
pension [1] - 2831:36 personnel [4] - 2825:2, 2825:8, 2837:1, 2842:34,
people [24] - 2793:13, 2788:14, 2831:39, 2825:18, 2825:22, 2845:13
2793:16, 2793:21, 2832:31, 2839:38 2825:32, 2826:23, proceedings [2] -
2793:39, 2802:8, perspective [2] - 2826:40, 2827:29, 2785:7, 2813:43
2802:36, 2803:22, 2808:19, 2857:4 2827:34, 2827:43, proceeds [3] - 2821:5,
2803:26, 2807:37, phenomenon [1] - 2828:3, 2828:14, 2835:24, 2835:30
2807:41, 2809:37, 2806:4 2828:18, 2834:45 process [16] -
2809:44, 2811:26, phone [1] - 2801:12 port [1] - 2830:47 2820:23, 2820:33,
2816:24, 2818:43, pick [1] - 2876:37 portion [1] - 2821:20 2829:32, 2830:12,
2819:8, 2831:19, picture [3] - 2800:2, position [18] - 2847:32, 2856:9,
2832:8, 2832:42, 2876:19, 2878:28 2787:14, 2787:18, 2856:32, 2861:31,
2842:2, 2842:7, piece [4] - 2806:34, 2793:8, 2802:11, 2862:8, 2862:18,
2863:23, 2872:9, 2853:39, 2853:42, 2802:47, 2803:2, 2863:8, 2869:13,
2886:28 2887:18 2805:12, 2838:9, 2875:21, 2883:46,
per [8] - 2793:23, pilot [1] - 2840:18 2844:42, 2845:19, 2884:32, 2886:12
2837:3, 2851:21, Pinkstone [1] - 2852:4, 2870:18, processes [4] -
2852:5, 2856:17, 2846:42 2874:26, 2874:29, 2848:47, 2856:45,
2860:6, 2871:46,
2872:3
perceive [1] - 2855:6
place [20] - 2806:21,
2808:7, 2845:31,
2855:2, 2856:45,
2875:16, 2876:17,
2888:17, 2889:20
positions [2] -
2875:24, 2875:42
produced [2] -
2790:43, 2790:44
perform [3] - 2865:25, 2858:19, 2861:18, 2791:37, 2847:33 production [1] -
2866:11, 2873:35 2861:37, 2861:39, possibilities [3] - 2807:4
performance [1] - 2864:42, 2868:14, 2844:2, 2844:3, professional [8] -
2888:41 2871:45, 2871:47, 2844:8 2786:28, 2840:9,
performed [3] - 2875:23, 2875:43, possibility [3] - 2840:10, 2840:12,
2788:22, 2796:1, 2881:5, 2888:27, 2839:4, 2842:32, 2844:11, 2844:12,
2867:10 2888:39, 2888:40, 2844:25 2887:20
performing [4] - 2888:42 possible [4] - professionals [3] -
2787:24, 2789:40, plan [2] - 2855:14, 2843:16, 2843:21, 2885:38, 2885:43,
2795:26, 2796:11 2855:40 2843:47 2887:6
perhaps [9] - 2790:47, planning [2] - possibly [8] - 2799:22, profit [2] - 2886:6,
2794:16, 2801:20, 2886:12, 2886:25 2810:16, 2840:37, 2886:7
2812:47, 2831:9, plans [1] - 2844:29 2844:17, 2857:3, profitable [1] -
2848:42, 2849:4, platform [5] - 2820:22, 2860:24, 2872:12, 2841:24
2857:42, 2880:33 2854:3, 2854:4, 2884:33 profits [5] - 2841:16,
period [2] - 2787:28, 2854:15, 2872:17 potential [9] - 2837:6, 2841:23, 2841:28,
2822:2 point [10] - 2797:23, 2841:19, 2844:10, 2841:31
permission [2] - 2797:26, 2810:32, 2849:38, 2866:33, program [2] - 2840:18,
.13/10/2017 (25) 17
Transcript produced by DTI
2841:4 2853:29
provision [2] -
2829:23, 2829:44
psychological [1] -
2793:30
public [5] - 2785:16,
2819:16, 2820:7,
2833:10, 2884:22
Public [2] - 2785:31,
2786:25
PUBLIC [88] - 2786:1,
2786:6, 2786:13,
2786:18, 2786:42,
2787:40, 2794:25,
2797:16, 2799:44,
2800:8, 2802:43,
2805:45, 2806:10,
2806:33, 2806:47,
2810:40, 2811:47,
2812:5, 2812:10,
2812:15, 2812:20,
2812:30, 2812:34,
2812:41, 2812:47,
2813:10, 2813:20,
2813:24, 2813:29,
2814:5, 2818:10,
2819:2, 2819:24,
2821:25, 2821:30,
2822:9, 2822:26,
2822:44, 2823:7,
2824:6, 2824:14,
2828:26, 2828:34,
2828:40, 2828:44,
2829:5, 2829:9,
2829:16, 2829:21,
2829:34, 2829:39,
2830:4, 2830:32,
2835:35, 2837:41,
2838:6, 2857:42,
2857:46, 2858:5,
2858:41, 2864:8,
2865:12, 2865:16,
2867:46, 2868:18,
2869:38, 2869:43,
2869:47, 2871:17,
2872:16, 2872:40,
2872:46, 2873:4,
2873:14, 2874:21,
2874:40, 2878:3,
2878:17, 2880:32,
2885:17, 2885:26,
2888:2, 2888:6,
2889:2, 2889:7,
2889:12, 2889:26,
2889:33
pull [1] - 2876:32
purchased [1] -
2853:21
purpose [12] - 2785:6,
2799:16, 2800:12,
2801:4, 2841:29, R reasons [1] - 2843:10
programs [1] - 2841:41, 2841:42, recalled [1] - 2799:45
raise [11] - 2789:38,
2792:2, 2793:2,
2793:5, 2793:11,
2794:12, 2794:23,
2801:3, 2801:5,
2878:31, 2878:38
raised [19] - 2789:41,
2789:45, 2793:3,
2793:45, 2794:22,
2796:44, 2801:30,
2802:2, 2802:21,
2809:24, 2832:36,
2840:23, 2842:31,
2850:29, 2878:34,
2880:35, 2881:13,
2883:8, 2883:12
raising [4] - 2792:45,
2794:17, 2812:6,
2834:44
ran [3] - 2828:20,
2833:40, 2841:7
range [1] - 2788:13
rather [4] - 2791:23,
2801:37, 2816:19,
2842:27
re [1] - 2853:26
re-entering [1] -
2853:26
reached [1] - 2889:20
read [6] - 2806:40,
2826:1, 2826:8,
2881:25, 2882:38,
2888:7
reading [1] - 2866:31
real [1] - 2831:47
realised [2] - 2799:34,
2799:38
realistic [2] - 2840:41,
2840:46
reallocated [1] -
2795:33
really [13] - 2789:44,
2795:25, 2799:15,
2804:4, 2827:44,
2829:27, 2829:43,
2830:35, 2839:21,
2842:3, 2853:22,
2856:21
reason [9] - 2809:12,
2809:14, 2810:1,
2817:47, 2843:20,
2864:5, 2874:46,
2879:19, 2879:20
reasonable [1] -
2860:36
reasonably [1] -
2831:21
2788:29 2886:10, 2886:13, recalling [1] - 2789:44
progress [1] - 2799:18 2886:16, 2886:37 receipt [1] - 2820:17
progressive [5] - purposes [1] - receipted [1] -
2854:38, 2854:42, 2869:12 2877:19
2854:43, 2888:33 pursued [1] - 2803:12 receipts [5] - 2820:18,
prohibited [1] - put [30] - 2789:31, 2861:10, 2862:13,
2785:7 2794:16, 2798:42, 2862:25, 2877:17
pronounced [1] - 2802:31, 2808:3, receivable [1] -
2815:13 2808:7, 2830:2, 2856:25
proper [2] - 2793:40, 2841:23, 2841:28, receive [1] - 2862:9
2880:21 2841:31, 2855:20, received [13] - 2797:4,
proposal [18] - 2855:27, 2857:37, 2800:25, 2837:42,
2845:9, 2845:13, 2858:19, 2858:35, 2838:11, 2865:29,
2855:20, 2857:37, 2859:7, 2859:21, 2867:3, 2868:47,
2865:28, 2866:30, 2860:20, 2861:1, 2871:5, 2872:24,
2868:9, 2868:13, 2861:18, 2862:13, 2876:27, 2881:28,
2869:15, 2869:26, 2864:27, 2868:8, 2881:29, 2883:12
2869:28, 2869:30,
2870:9, 2870:42,
2871:1, 2871:5,
2875:1
proposals [3] -
2844:46, 2844:47,
2868:47
proposed [1] -
2868:12, 2875:23,
2879:42, 2879:46,
2881:5, 2884:44,
2888:27
puts [1] - 2843:1
putting [5] - 2829:37,
2833:25, 2863:15,
2877:3, 2880:45
receiving [3] - 2857:1,
2857:2, 2872:25
recent [4] - 2791:12,
2791:14, 2803:2,
2858:10
recently [9] - 2787:10,
2803:39, 2833:21,
2850:1, 2852:44,
2875:37
2853:1, 2862:44,
Q prosecution [1] - 2863:15, 2881:18
2813:38 recipient [1] - 2808:12
QC [3] - 2881:37,
2884:26, 2884:27
QC's [1] - 2884:42
qualified [1] - 2793:40
quality [1] - 2854:16
Queen's [1] - 2884:19
Queens [1] - 2785:21
Queensland [2] -
2824:19, 2843:9
questioning [1] -
2818:15
questions [17] -
2798:40, 2812:18,
2813:14, 2813:37,
2813:42, 2815:36,
2834:8, 2856:43,
2856:47, 2876:24,
2880:32, 2880:34,
2885:20, 2885:22,
2885:23, 2885:31
quickly [1] - 2876:34
quite [10] - 2798:29,
2816:16, 2818:8,
2818:42, 2840:34,
2857:3, 2857:6,
2867:17, 2870:23,
2872:25
protection [1] - recognise [4] -
2813:47 2799:34, 2799:44,
provide [13] - 2802:12, 2800:1, 2800:5
2802:35, 2803:21, recollection [10] -
2813:13, 2813:40, 2793:24, 2793:27,
2820:18, 2840:37, 2793:32, 2793:36,
2843:14, 2845:19, 2799:31, 2800:24,
2849:22, 2868:28, 2801:14, 2801:24,
2868:30, 2881:43 2801:27, 2881:42
provided [21] - recommend [4] -
2790:47, 2808:23, 2834:19, 2848:47,
2809:25, 2814:1, 2859:15, 2859:16
2820:15, 2832:38, recommendation [8] -
2833:10, 2838:26, 2799:5, 2834:12,
2838:31, 2843:5, 2837:37, 2852:31,
2861:9, 2865:8, 2853:14, 2859:7,
2867:2, 2868:35, 2871:2, 2880:7
2868:41, 2868:42, recommendations [2]
2869:15, 2869:19, - 2861:17, 2861:21
2869:20, 2870:41, recommended [11] -
2871:31 2833:38, 2836:35,
provider [5] - 2804:26, 2839:43, 2850:33,
2804:27, 2820:23, 2853:26, 2859:14,
2820:26, 2820:29 2869:9, 2884:14,
provides [3] - 2884:21, 2884:35,
2788:13, 2789:7, 2884:37
2839:13 record [1] - 2798:43
providing [6] - 2796:4, recorded [2] -
2802:7, 2831:36, 2873:32, 2883:35
2840:12, 2840:35, recording [1] - 2881:5
.13/10/2017 (25) 18
Transcript produced by DTI
records [16] - regulations [5] - 2790:20, 2790:29,
2796:19, 2796:21,
2827:21, 2827:24,
2847:4, 2847:42,
2847:46, 2848:4,
2848:33, 2848:35,
2861:13, 2861:18,
2861:23, 2865:8,
2865:10, 2868:2,
2869:21, 2871:38,
2873:43, 2881:28,
2887:1, 2888:11,
2889:21
reported [6] - 2790:32,
2796:29, 2797:19,
2810:11, 2830:17,
2833:45
reporting [8] -
2788:42, 2790:9,
2790:37, 2814:41,
2848:34, 2849:39,
2852:19, 2853:25
reports [12] - 2793:14,
2798:15, 2836:7,
2836:9, 2847:5,
2847:8, 2847:47,
2849:20, 2857:16,
2858:9, 2861:12,
2873:17
reproduction [1] -
2785:4
request [2] - 2868:29,
2869:15
requested [5] -
2811:26, 2845:20,
2851:29, 2866:44,
2866:47
requests [1] - 2862:9
required [2] - 2840:5,
2872:4
requirement [2] -
2863:33, 2888:10
requirements [14] -
2811:33, 2814:44,
2815:27, 2821:4,
2821:27, 2821:41,
2838:13, 2845:32,
2856:18, 2856:20,
2863:43, 2868:16,
2869:13, 2869:32
requires [1] - 2853:25
research [1] - 2880:46
researching [1] -
2811:26
RESERVED [1] -
2785:1
reserved [1] - 2785:2
resides [1] - 2842:38
resignation [1] -
2809:18
resigned [2] - 2883:4,
2883:5
resolution [6] -
2864:34, 2875:27,
2881:43, 2883:38,
2884:44, 2885:2
resolutions [2] -
2845:12, 2875:32
resolve [2] - 2802:39,
2808:8
resolved [2] -
2881:32, 2887:5
respect [29] - 2790:19,
2796:37, 2800:32,
2812:43, 2813:2,
2813:13, 2813:42,
2828:45, 2829:28,
2832:21, 2845:46,
2857:34, 2857:35,
2858:10, 2869:21,
2869:24, 2870:10,
2870:13, 2872:26,
2874:13, 2882:18,
2883:47, 2885:46,
2886:19, 2886:20,
2886:23, 2886:34,
2886:35, 2887:20
response [6] - 2797:4,
2832:22, 2832:46,
2868:27, 2868:29,
2880:7
responses [2] -
2876:27, 2876:44
responsibilities [3] -
2847:33, 2847:35,
2847:38
responsibility [19] -
2795:44, 2795:45,
2814:42, 2818:28,
2818:35, 2818:42,
2818:44, 2818:47,
2819:30, 2820:43,
2821:19, 2826:44,
2832:23, 2832:24,
2841:9, 2846:47,
2847:6, 2847:36
responsible [5] -
2787:44, 2795:22,
2796:25, 2826:31,
2828:16
result [7] - 2799:4,
2799:5, 2804:3,
2822:28, 2838:2,
2856:19, 2880:44
resume [2] - 2828:28,
2838:32
retained [3] - 2865:25,
2866:30, 2881:9
retainer [1] - 2873:31
retired [1] - 2795:29
return [1] - 2812:26
2790:45, 2804:40, 2814:46, 2815:39, returned [1] - 2808:10
2816:39, 2817:17, 2856:28, 2869:33, returns [1] - 2889:30
2825:37, 2836:8, 2870:27 revealed [2] - 2836:15,
2851:10, 2851:13, regulator [1] - 2889:14 2857:16
2851:23, 2851:24, regulatory [1] - Review [3] - 2833:35,
2851:29, 2851:38, 2845:32 2833:39, 2834:14
2851:46, 2856:12, reimbursing [2] - review [26] - 2834:2,
2874:7, 2882:5 2808:33, 2808:44 2834:19, 2834:35,
recruited [1] - 2815:6 reiterate [1] - 2889:20 2836:4, 2836:7,
rectify [2] - 2849:6, reject [1] - 2794:25 2836:14, 2837:9,
2877:3 relate [1] - 2877:11 2837:11, 2837:13,
rectifying [2] - related [8] - 2803:6, 2855:47, 2856:1,
2829:44, 2877:8 2834:40, 2843:11, 2856:43, 2858:15,
redefine [1] - 2886:9 2849:13, 2857:7, 2865:25, 2865:28,
refer [7] - 2803:31, 2860:19, 2860:24, 2867:33, 2867:35,
2807:4, 2816:18, 2862:22 2867:36, 2868:35,
2831:19, 2838:22, relating [4] - 2817:7, 2869:13, 2869:14,
2870:7, 2881:40 2838:47, 2880:35, 2871:14, 2875:43,
reference [5] - 2887:36 2880:11, 2880:15
2806:40, 2807:22, relation [16] - 2800:35, reviewed [1] - 2884:27
2817:29, 2833:3, 2804:32, 2812:8, revise [1] - 2871:30
2868:23 2812:38, 2815:34, revised [1] - 2867:4
referred [14] - 2789:8, 2818:26, 2842:14, revoked [1] - 2888:13
2792:28, 2804:31, 2849:23, 2873:21, right-hand [3] -
2813:44, 2831:35, 2874:23, 2877:16, 2865:43, 2865:46,
2832:26, 2845:17, 2877:31, 2877:35, 2873:27
2846:21, 2865:20, 2880:1, 2880:26, ring [1] - 2816:24
2868:36, 2868:40, 2882:11 RLS [2] - 2825:7,
2882:23, 2882:27, relationship [6] - 2864:12
2883:27 2797:13, 2803:30, Road [1] - 2785:22
referring [4] - 2819:3, 2803:33, 2853:19, Robyn [2] - 2786:4,
2829:41, 2831:43, 2853:41, 2871:46 2786:26
2833:35 reliance [1] - 2835:7 ROBYN [2] - 2786:20,
refers [1] - 2833:25 rely [2] - 2818:31, 2787:2
reflect [4] - 2872:1, 2840:25 Rocchi [12] - 2815:17,
2872:4, 2872:7, remedial [1] - 2829:21 2816:38, 2819:9,
2874:27 remedies [1] - 2837:6 2826:17, 2826:18,
reflected [1] - 2880:8 remedy [3] - 2829:32, 2826:29, 2826:35,
reflecting [1] - 2875:23, 2877:3 2846:22, 2846:26,
2870:28 remember [6] - 2846:28, 2846:41,
refresh [1] - 2806:44 2799:22, 2810:1, 2846:47
regard [4] - 2796:29, 2810:5, 2822:20, ROCCHI [1] - 2815:20
2803:1, 2860:17, 2872:19, 2882:47 role [25] - 2787:24,
2889:18 remind [1] - 2845:24 2787:33, 2788:23,
regarded [1] - 2818:21 remove [1] - 2839:38 2788:42, 2789:17,
register [5] - 2816:31, removing [1] - 2806:3 2789:40, 2792:17,
2864:45, 2864:46, remuneration [2] - 2792:45, 2792:47,
2865:5 2855:19, 2858:36 2794:6, 2794:11,
registered [1] - renewal [3] - 2836:43, 2794:32, 2795:26,
2867:43 2877:42, 2879:11 2795:31, 2795:33,
registers [2] - 2816:6, renewed [1] - 2848:22 2796:11, 2817:41,
2865:1 repair [1] - 2848:44 2818:7, 2818:10,
Registry [1] - 2809:35 repairing [1] - 2849:1 2830:29, 2842:24,
regular [3] - 2831:5,
2831:6, 2831:21
regulated [1] - 2841:6
regulation [3] -
2814:26, 2814:31,
2856:21
repeat [2] - 2806:18,
2870:2
repeated [1] - 2861:28
replaced [1] - 2846:21
report [28] - 2790:2,
2790:6, 2790:13,
2847:40, 2885:45,
2887:33, 2887:35
roles [2] - 2847:33,
2847:38
Rowe [4] - 2809:18,
2810:5, 2883:4
.13/10/2017 (25) 19
Transcript produced by DTI
Rowe's [2] - 2810:2, 2858:10, 2858:19, 2851:36, 2851:38,
2852:13, 2852:14,
2853:20, 2875:20,
2875:35
Sage's [1] - 2852:19
satisfied [2] -
2878:45, 2888:40
satisfying [1] - 2880:2
saw [7] - 2789:21,
2789:39, 2792:17,
2834:2, 2834:16,
2880:36, 2881:4
SC [3] - 2785:32,
2785:36, 2881:37
scanned [1] - 2876:44
scenario [1] - 2844:28
schedule [2] -
2813:13, 2813:40
scheme [1] - 2829:13
scope [3] - 2866:17,
2866:21, 2866:32
Scope [1] - 2873:46
Scope" [1] - 2873:45
scoping [1] - 2853:45
seat [1] - 2786:18
second [3] - 2847:31,
2873:31, 2874:2
secondly [1] - 2886:4
Secretary [1] - 2865:1
secretary [4] -
2887:26, 2887:34,
2887:35, 2887:37
section [4] - 2812:1,
2829:16, 2833:12,
2833:19
sector [2] - 2803:9,
2831:14
see [54] - 2798:28,
2798:41, 2798:44,
2800:13, 2806:40,
2806:41, 2807:1,
2807:22, 2809:12,
2809:14, 2817:24,
2817:28, 2819:6,
2821:9, 2827:18,
2830:40, 2831:2,
2831:20, 2833:45,
2833:46, 2835:27,
2839:20, 2840:45,
2840:46, 2841:45,
2843:22, 2854:6,
2862:10, 2862:13,
2864:8, 2866:5,
2866:8, 2866:14,
2866:22, 2866:25,
2866:41, 2867:6,
2867:10, 2867:16,
2868:14, 2868:23,
2868:24, 2868:40,
2873:31, 2873:41,
2873:46, 2874:9,
2881:33, 2882:9,
2882:14, 2883:15,
2883:38, 2884:6,
2884:19
seeing [2] - 2849:6,
2854:13
seek [2] - 2822:29,
2880:33
seeking [2] - 2828:45,
2829:46
seem [6] - 2798:37,
2829:42, 2843:40,
2843:44, 2875:6,
2889:13
segregated [1] -
2847:35
send [1] - 2808:11
sending [3] - 2806:33,
2832:7, 2832:11
senior [2] - 2881:33,
2881:43
sense [3] - 2843:40,
2843:45, 2860:32
sensible [1] - 2875:42
sent [7] - 2808:9,
2831:32, 2863:21,
2863:30, 2871:1,
2876:13, 2880:6
sentence [1] - 2870:7
separate [6] -
2803:33, 2804:14,
2842:20, 2842:40,
2846:45, 2875:32
separation [6] -
2803:38, 2803:44,
2804:3, 2842:26,
2842:35, 2842:37
September [12] -
2838:16, 2845:18,
2847:20, 2848:10,
2853:9, 2868:36,
2871:5, 2871:10,
2877:47, 2879:7,
2884:9, 2887:1
sequential [1] -
2816:33
series [3] - 2789:45,
2790:1, 2884:16
serious [2] - 2834:11,
2882:41
service [16] - 2793:14,
2793:21, 2802:35,
2803:22, 2803:25,
2804:18, 2804:25,
2804:27, 2831:14,
2831:16, 2839:37,
2840:9, 2840:31,
2840:37, 2844:11,
2886:14
servicemen [4] -
2801:37, 2802:12,
2832:27
services [27] -
2788:13, 2803:6,
2829:23, 2829:44,
2831:36, 2833:11,
2833:14, 2839:12,
2839:15, 2839:21,
2840:10, 2840:12,
2840:15, 2840:23,
2841:39, 2843:5,
2843:14, 2844:12,
2844:13, 2853:29,
2866:12, 2873:36,
2884:28, 2884:29,
2886:40
Services [3] - 2785:3,
2785:5, 2788:8
serving [5] - 2788:27,
2793:27, 2831:39,
2832:42, 2884:30
set [22] - 2803:4,
2803:17, 2819:35,
2819:38, 2820:33,
2821:15, 2821:27,
2821:33, 2821:45,
2822:5, 2822:13,
2822:19, 2833:33,
2833:38, 2834:13,
2843:10, 2843:20,
2852:22, 2856:11,
2866:18, 2875:18,
2884:21
setting [10] - 2820:1,
2820:46, 2821:9,
2834:19, 2839:27,
2839:44, 2840:29,
2870:21, 2884:40,
2885:1
setup [1] - 2856:36
several [2] - 2846:44,
2859:34
severely [2] - 2793:13,
2793:16
shared [1] - 2863:20
sheet [4] - 2798:31,
2798:33, 2798:35,
2798:46
Sheridan [5] -
2799:33, 2799:41,
2799:44, 2800:39,
2889:30
Sheridan's [1] -
2799:40
shocked [1] - 2810:17
short [2] - 2812:21,
2828:26
SHORT [2] - 2812:32,
2828:32
2810:10 2858:29, 2861:14,
RSL [198] - 2786:32, 2861:19, 2861:27,
2787:11, 2787:15, 2861:31, 2861:32,
2787:24, 2787:26, 2861:39, 2862:5,
2787:33, 2788:19, 2862:8, 2862:36,
2788:20, 2788:26, 2862:40, 2863:7,
2788:33, 2788:43, 2863:22, 2863:28,
2788:45, 2789:3, 2863:46, 2864:31,
2789:22, 2790:19, 2864:42, 2865:4,
2791:33, 2792:38, 2865:8, 2872:42,
2792:39, 2794:12, 2873:16, 2873:19,
2794:18, 2795:16, 2873:36, 2874:6,
2795:33, 2795:40, 2874:14, 2874:19,
2795:46, 2796:7, 2874:23, 2875:6,
2796:25, 2797:40, 2875:12, 2875:16,
2798:11, 2798:20, 2875:19, 2875:22,
2798:35, 2803:30, 2875:26, 2875:31,
2803:31, 2804:10, 2875:35, 2875:40,
2808:41, 2809:34, 2875:41, 2875:44,
2810:15, 2817:10, 2876:1, 2876:2,
2817:14, 2817:17, 2876:5, 2876:13,
2817:23, 2818:18, 2876:40, 2877:2,
2819:29, 2820:30, 2877:21, 2877:31,
2821:23, 2823:17, 2879:30, 2879:34,
2823:21, 2824:6, 2879:40, 2879:41,
2824:8, 2824:19, 2879:46, 2880:26,
2824:38, 2824:41, 2884:23, 2884:41,
2824:43, 2824:46, 2884:44, 2884:45,
2825:21, 2827:3, 2885:1, 2885:9,
2827:17, 2827:39, 2885:21, 2885:23,
2827:41, 2827:44, 2885:31, 2885:35,
2828:21, 2830:21, 2885:39, 2885:44,
2830:25, 2830:29, 2885:46, 2886:5,
2830:33, 2835:22, 2886:11, 2886:15,
2835:25, 2835:31, 2886:23, 2886:29,
2836:9, 2839:1, 2886:39, 2887:5,
2842:16, 2842:20, 2887:21, 2887:25,
2842:28, 2842:33, 2888:28
2842:42, 2843:3, RSL's [2] - 2836:5,
2843:5, 2843:6, 2853:19
2843:12, 2843:14, rules [1] - 2801:41
2843:22, 2843:25, Rules [2] - 2881:18,
2843:28, 2843:30, 2881:19
2843:40, 2843:45, run [8] - 2804:10,
2844:20, 2844:29, 2824:45, 2835:15,
2844:32, 2844:36, 2839:19, 2841:10,
2844:43, 2846:43, 2841:12, 2843:3,
2847:12, 2848:1, 2887:38
2848:2, 2848:7, running [3] - 2834:28,
2848:33, 2848:47, 2841:45, 2853:46
2849:10, 2849:14, runs [1] - 2843:30 2849:18, 2849:38,
2850:11, 2850:36, S 2851:28, 2851:30,
Sage [16] - 2836:9,
2850:7, 2850:11,
2850:22, 2850:30,
2850:40, 2850:44,
2851:25, 2851:35,
2852:45, 2853:3,
2853:21, 2855:10,
2855:15, 2855:20,
2855:32, 2855:37,
2857:18, 2857:28,
2857:29, 2857:36,
.13/10/2017 (25) 20
Transcript produced by DTI
shortly [2] - 2812:26, 2886:38
social [1] - 2886:6
sole [4] - 2883:5,
2883:9, 2883:11,
2884:46
solicitor [3] - 2881:9,
2884:10, 2884:13
solution [2] - 2853:18,
2853:28
solutions [2] -
2832:39, 2832:40
solve [2] - 2877:30,
2877:37
SOM [1] - 2815:13
Som [1] - 2815:13
someone [5] - 2819:7,
2831:20, 2848:43,
2853:45, 2863:38
sometimes [1] -
2871:18
somewhere [3] -
2820:34, 2825:12,
2841:46
son [1] - 2809:25
soon [3] - 2801:45,
2825:18, 2881:4
sorry [99] - 2792:7,
2792:26, 2793:37,
2794:14, 2800:29,
2802:41, 2805:26,
2805:38, 2806:1,
2806:8, 2806:14,
2806:18, 2806:26,
2806:27, 2807:23,
2807:24, 2810:18,
2810:33, 2811:20,
2815:12, 2815:25,
2820:27, 2820:36,
2820:44, 2822:10,
2823:39, 2824:28,
2826:29, 2827:12,
2827:47, 2828:5,
2828:14, 2832:38,
2834:30, 2835:32,
2836:11, 2837:26,
2844:30, 2845:2,
2845:6, 2845:26,
2847:5, 2847:30,
2848:29, 2849:29,
2850:16, 2850:20,
2851:20, 2851:41,
2852:13, 2852:32,
2852:45, 2854:13,
2854:14, 2854:39,
2854:40, 2855:29,
2855:43, 2856:1,
2857:32, 2858:44,
2859:6, 2860:41,
2862:12, 2864:39,
2865:1, 2865:14,
2865:34, 2865:47,
2866:31, 2867:17,
2867:22, 2868:14,
2869:12, 2871:15,
2871:18, 2871:30,
2871:34, 2872:5,
2872:46, 2873:42,
2874:27, 2874:34,
2877:42, 2879:5,
2879:43, 2881:10,
2882:2, 2882:43,
2883:3, 2883:8,
2884:36, 2884:47,
2885:47
sort [4] - 2831:11,
2877:32, 2882:25,
2882:34
sorts [4] - 2816:7,
2816:31, 2831:22,
2860:19
sought [3] - 2832:39,
2838:27, 2849:22
sound [3] - 2804:19,
2804:23, 2852:21
source [3] - 2840:20,
2849:41, 2884:10
sources [1] - 2840:40
South [16] - 2785:23,
2821:38, 2823:10,
2823:13, 2823:31,
2824:4, 2824:22,
2824:27, 2824:35,
2824:45, 2825:1,
2825:22, 2825:29,
2825:33, 2845:40,
2850:26
space [3] - 2871:23,
2872:35, 2887:37
speaking [1] -
2886:28
specialist [5] -
2793:15, 2848:14,
2848:26, 2848:31,
2848:43
specialists [2] -
2793:13, 2793:17
specific [4] - 2810:18,
2817:34, 2860:2,
2867:14
specifically [7] -
2789:41, 2815:29,
2815:41, 2816:19,
2832:37, 2832:43,
2856:12
specifications [1] -
2867:2
specifics [1] - 2810:16
specifies [1] - 2860:6
specify [1] - 2860:5
spell [2] - 2815:12,
2862:47 2858:15, 2858:23,
2858:25, 2858:33,
2858:34, 2858:37,
2858:44, 2858:46,
2859:8, 2859:10,
2859:18, 2859:19,
2859:22, 2863:17,
2863:18, 2863:46,
2864:32, 2865:1,
2865:2, 2873:21,
2875:28, 2876:1,
2876:3, 2884:44
statement [22] -
2786:34, 2786:38,
2786:45, 2791:40,
2803:37, 2806:38,
2812:8, 2813:18,
2813:25, 2829:1,
2829:11, 2838:19,
2862:26, 2864:19,
2868:19, 2869:40,
2870:8, 2878:47,
2879:1, 2879:3,
2880:37, 2888:26
STATEMENT [1] -
2787:2
statements [13] -
2797:31, 2797:47,
2798:1, 2798:8,
2800:36, 2812:42,
2817:28, 2825:38,
2825:39, 2825:45,
2826:3, 2861:4,
2861:9
States [13] - 2821:42,
2822:29, 2822:32,
2822:40, 2823:18,
2823:25, 2823:46,
2824:4, 2824:34,
2825:25, 2843:4,
2843:7, 2843:8
status [1] - 2807:20
statute [2] - 2843:11,
2843:17
stay [1] - 2842:27
step [6] - 2812:22,
2857:47, 2877:3,
2877:4, 2877:14,
2889:7
steps [20] - 2802:25,
2802:27, 2802:39,
2805:41, 2808:3,
2829:2, 2829:28,
2846:16, 2858:18,
2875:11, 2875:23,
2879:11, 2879:45,
2880:9, 2884:16,
2884:36, 2884:37,
2885:7, 2888:34
still [19] - 2795:46,
2850:5 spelt [1] - 2815:23
show [3] - 2791:36, spend [2] - 2859:47,
2833:46, 2865:33 2860:33
showed [2] - 2845:17, spent [1] - 2865:31
2873:28 split [2] - 2846:35,
shown [4] - 2867:24, 2846:38
2873:24, 2876:43, spoken [1] - 2869:20
2880:36 sporting [1] - 2788:28
shows [2] - 2791:28, Square [1] - 2785:21
2791:41 staff [3] - 2818:32,
sick [2] - 2794:28, 2818:35, 2847:13
2797:45 stage [26] - 2789:38,
side [17] - 2789:18, 2798:24, 2807:15,
2789:22, 2790:19, 2811:11, 2812:17,
2790:21, 2790:24, 2817:11, 2817:45,
2792:37, 2792:38, 2837:1, 2837:25,
2794:41, 2795:4, 2837:28, 2839:8,
2796:33, 2797:27, 2845:5, 2845:42,
2800:17, 2811:32, 2849:26, 2849:46,
2815:45, 2817:12, 2850:43, 2855:18,
2830:24, 2841:25 2856:35, 2865:24,
signature [1] - 2866:29, 2867:13,
2862:28 2871:29, 2874:24,
signatures [1] - 2875:24, 2877:36,
2862:29 2880:11
signed [2] - 2787:16, stakeholders [2] -
2862:28 2886:14, 2886:28
significant [5] - stalled [2] - 2800:13,
2840:33, 2840:35, 2800:17
2841:4, 2855:6, stalling [2] - 2800:14,
2878:45 2800:16
similar [6] - 2807:29, stand [2] - 2803:21,
2834:29, 2843:5, 2878:44
2859:29, 2863:30, standardisation [1] -
2875:42 2887:40
simple [1] - 2816:16 start [3] - 2787:32,
simply [3] - 2789:33, 2797:27, 2869:2
2804:44, 2826:7 started [22] - 2788:34,
single [1] - 2863:20 2788:37, 2788:38,
Single [1] - 2785:37 2788:40, 2788:46,
sit [2] - 2818:11, 2794:31, 2795:3,
2829:40 2802:18, 2802:44,
sits [2] - 2885:14, 2802:45, 2815:5,
2885:15 2822:2, 2836:26,
sitting [2] - 2799:36 2836:29, 2846:11,
situation [5] - 2809:7, 2847:6, 2847:28,
2829:22, 2842:9, 2850:18, 2862:8,
2875:23, 2888:33 2863:6, 2877:10,
slack [1] - 2824:36 2881:4
slightly [4] - 2829:13, starting [6] - 2796:17,
2833:17, 2859:36, 2836:2, 2845:34,
2883:3 2846:40, 2863:7,
slow [1] - 2853:24 2882:47
small [6] - 2814:43, state [2] - 2843:7,
2816:12, 2816:15, 2888:19
2818:43, 2828:19, State [31] - 2821:47,
2833:12 2823:21, 2833:45,
Social [4] - 2885:45, 2842:42, 2843:6,
2886:3, 2886:11, 2843:33, 2844:40,
.13/10/2017 (25) 21
Transcript produced by DTI
2822:23, 2831:31, sub-branches's [1] -
2835:32
subject [2] - 2801:14,
2884:42
submitted [4] -
2869:26, 2869:28,
2877:41, 2877:42
subsequent [2] -
2866:34, 2885:4
subsequently [3] -
2788:10, 2835:25,
2835:26
succeeded [2] -
2815:16, 2826:16
success [1] - 2854:13
successful [2] -
2840:19, 2854:11
sufficient [9] -
2804:22, 2811:23,
2811:25, 2814:37,
2837:4, 2862:11,
2870:25, 2870:30,
2878:27
sufficiently [1] -
2841:34
suggest [5] - 2813:1,
2817:30, 2818:14,
2878:37
suggested [4] -
2832:40, 2839:45,
2848:42, 2881:16
suggesting [1] -
2879:27
suggestions [2] -
2831:15, 2844:23
suit [1] - 2813:15
suitability [1] - 2880:3
suite [2] - 2853:17,
2856:26
Suite [1] - 2854:28
Sulan [1] - 2885:18
SULAN [4] - 2885:20,
2885:28, 2885:30,
2887:47
supervise [1] -
2805:12
supplier [2] - 2820:23,
2820:29
support [8] - 2789:8,
2793:15, 2793:40,
2832:3, 2840:18,
2841:29, 2841:34,
2884:47
supported [1] -
2841:16
supporting [2] -
2840:44, 2841:25
supports [1] - 2840:43
supposed [1] - 2790:6
Supreme [2] -
2829:47, 2881:20 2848:46, 2853:32, 2843:1, 2845:30,
2832:32, 2833:17, surety [1] - 2868:30 2854:2, 2854:7, 2852:15, 2854:30,
2833:25, 2844:34, surround [2] - 2854:18, 2855:2, 2854:34, 2854:38,
2846:28, 2851:25, 2856:24, 2870:15 2855:6, 2855:7, 2856:24, 2857:36,
2851:28, 2851:35, surrounding [1] - 2855:11, 2855:15, 2860:15, 2861:20,
2855:10, 2856:44, 2868:32 2857:4, 2861:32, 2871:12, 2871:14,
2858:36, 2859:38, survey [2] - 2876:13, 2865:8, 2865:26, 2871:21, 2871:22,
2859:43, 2860:12, 2876:22 2868:14, 2870:21, 2879:41, 2879:44,
2861:31, 2875:20 surveys [4] - 2876:27, 2871:28, 2871:45, 2884:5, 2886:4,
stop [4] - 2795:32, 2876:31, 2876:33, 2874:18, 2875:17, 2886:30
2809:1, 2823:41, 2876:42 2877:3, 2880:3, Terms [1] - 2888:7
2823:43 suspend [1] - 2837:28 2888:30, 2888:42 terribly [1] - 2872:46
stopped [1] - 2833:23 suspension [1] - Territories [9] -
T stopping [2] - 2838:3 2821:42, 2822:30,
2829:44, 2862:35 sustain [1] - 2840:5 2822:32, 2822:40,
tab [9] - 2791:4,
2791:8, 2791:12,
2791:27, 2865:33,
2868:19, 2873:27,
2880:38, 2881:26
tabulated [2] -
2868:41, 2869:19
tags [1] - 2818:45
task [1] - 2849:13
tasks [1] - 2849:43
tax [1] - 2831:43
tea [1] - 2830:16
team [12] - 2797:36,
2798:28, 2798:42,
2799:10, 2799:40,
2801:26, 2801:30,
2847:34, 2856:34,
2863:21, 2871:33,
2872:9
technical [2] -
2851:40, 2851:41
telephone [4] -
2801:15, 2801:18,
2801:19, 2801:20
temptation [1] -
2841:23
tend [1] - 2813:38
tender [2] - 2786:45,
2840:19
tendered [2] -
2840:17, 2840:18
tension [1] - 2841:20
tentative [1] - 2845:35
tentatively [1] -
2884:41
terms [36] - 2787:20,
2787:37, 2794:20,
2802:39, 2815:38,
2815:42, 2817:12,
2830:13, 2831:27,
2832:23, 2834:18,
2836:29, 2837:3,
2837:13, 2837:36,
2839:19, 2840:40,
straddles [1] - 2848:1 sustainable [2] - 2823:18, 2823:25,
strategic [2] - 2840:22, 2841:11 2823:46, 2824:34,
2886:12, 2886:25 sworn [1] - 2786:20 2825:25
strategy [5] - 2886:9, Sydney [2] - 2785:23, Territory [1] - 2822:1
2886:16, 2887:4, 2786:29 tested [1] - 2888:24
2887:17, 2887:18 system [79] - 2820:10, THE [5] - 2785:12,
Street [1] - 2786:29 2820:16, 2834:24, 2870:2, 2878:19,
strongly [1] - 2840:21 2836:9, 2845:31, 2889:10, 2889:36
structure [5] - 2839:1, 2849:38, 2850:7, therefore [2] -
2845:47, 2856:44, 2850:8, 2850:11, 2802:16, 2832:11
2886:39, 2886:43 2850:12, 2850:13, thinking [3] - 2866:17,
structured [3] - 2850:25, 2850:44, 2873:42, 2884:38
2842:1, 2842:11, 2851:26, 2851:35, third [2] - 2847:19,
2886:37 2851:36, 2852:15, 2863:37
struggling [3] - 2852:25, 2852:30, Thornton [2] -
2840:26, 2856:27, 2852:31, 2852:33, 2799:26, 2858:14
2859:6 2852:36, 2852:37, three [16] - 2786:38,
sub [26] - 2803:32, 2852:41, 2852:46, 2786:40, 2830:45,
2807:16, 2834:41, 2853:1, 2853:2, 2831:9, 2840:45,
2834:44, 2835:8, 2853:6, 2853:13, 2840:47, 2841:1,
2835:10, 2835:17, 2853:16, 2853:20, 2841:2, 2847:17,
2835:21, 2835:32, 2853:27, 2853:40, 2847:26, 2847:34,
2835:38, 2843:33, 2853:42, 2854:16, 2853:32, 2854:2,
2843:36, 2864:12, 2854:21, 2854:24, 2854:6, 2863:33,
2876:6, 2876:10, 2854:30, 2854:31, 2864:15
2876:14, 2876:35, 2855:23, 2855:32, throughout [1] -
2876:37, 2877:9, 2855:34, 2855:35, 2821:34
2877:12, 2877:13, 2855:37, 2855:44, Thursday [1] -
2877:22, 2877:26, 2855:47, 2856:4, 2889:30
2877:32, 2877:35 2856:17, 2856:22, timeline [3] - 2870:46,
sub-branch [3] - 2856:30, 2856:37, 2871:3, 2887:18
2864:12, 2876:35, 2857:37, 2857:38, timetable [3] -
2876:37 2861:46, 2862:15, 2837:18, 2855:29,
sub-branches [22] - 2862:17, 2862:32, 2889:19
2803:32, 2807:16, 2862:35, 2862:37, timing [1] - 2883:3
2834:41, 2834:44, 2862:45, 2863:9, title [3] - 2846:22,
2835:8, 2835:10, 2865:29, 2870:13, 2846:24, 2846:31
2835:17, 2835:21, 2870:21, 2870:22, titles [1] - 2847:25
2835:38, 2843:33,
2843:36, 2876:6,
2876:10, 2876:14,
2876:37, 2877:9,
2877:12, 2877:13,
2877:22, 2877:26,
2877:32, 2877:35
2870:23, 2870:24,
2870:30, 2870:35,
2871:47, 2872:2,
2873:18, 2875:20,
2875:24, 2876:3
system" [1] - 2834:26
systems [24] -
TO [1] - 2889:36
today [4] - 2809:7,
2829:41, 2871:10,
2888:22
today's [1] - 2838:25
TOGETHER [1] -
2787:2
.13/10/2017 (25) 22
Transcript produced by DTI
together [5] - 2798:43, 2827:30
trips [9] - 2792:33,
2792:37, 2792:41,
2792:46, 2793:2,
2793:15, 2793:20,
2793:34, 2793:46
trouble [2] - 2789:44,
2831:21
true [1] - 2888:40
truly [3] - 2834:14,
2836:10, 2839:20
trust [6] - 2829:24,
2829:40, 2839:4,
2843:20, 2873:8,
2880:36
Trust [6] - 2812:43,
2830:39, 2881:14,
2882:34, 2883:15
Trustee [14] - 2793:9,
2813:3, 2831:3,
2863:37, 2863:46,
2864:27, 2873:5,
2881:14, 2883:5,
2883:9, 2883:11,
2885:6
trustees [2] - 2790:3,
2790:33
Trustees [78] - 2790:7,
2796:4, 2796:22,
2796:29, 2797:1,
2797:19, 2799:6,
2799:32, 2803:13,
2804:44, 2808:8,
2814:42, 2815:28,
2817:5, 2818:29,
2819:32, 2828:9,
2828:36, 2829:22,
2829:39, 2829:46,
2830:18, 2830:38,
2830:45, 2831:26,
2832:37, 2832:43,
2833:38, 2836:36,
2837:34, 2838:12,
2838:34, 2838:39,
2839:29, 2839:43,
2840:24, 2842:42,
2849:39, 2852:32,
2853:14, 2853:27,
2857:38, 2859:32,
2861:6, 2861:9,
2863:33, 2863:39,
2864:15, 2864:27,
2869:9, 2869:16,
2870:37, 2870:42,
2870:47, 2871:1,
2875:2, 2878:31,
2878:35, 2879:22,
2879:25, 2879:27,
2880:6, 2880:35,
2881:13, 2881:32,
2881:44, 2882:10, 2835:3, 2835:5,
2835:13, 2843:21,
2843:45, 2844:32
UNDER [1] - 2785:12
undergoing [1] -
2842:8
understood [30] -
2787:43, 2788:47,
2790:6, 2793:35,
2797:37, 2797:42,
2808:26, 2808:29,
2808:31, 2808:33,
2808:36, 2808:40,
2814:40, 2814:43,
2817:10, 2817:13,
2817:17, 2818:7,
2818:17, 2818:24,
2820:12, 2821:19,
2832:16, 2835:3,
2849:9, 2857:35,
2866:31, 2868:2,
2871:26, 2881:38
undertake [1] -
2866:45
Union [3] - 2824:14,
2824:16, 2824:26
unsure [1] - 2870:24
unwell [1] - 2793:39
up [54] - 2787:14,
2788:4, 2790:6,
2797:23, 2797:24,
2799:13, 2799:15,
2803:4, 2803:17,
2816:14, 2819:35,
2819:38, 2820:1,
2820:33, 2820:35,
2820:46, 2821:10,
2821:15, 2821:27,
2821:33, 2821:45,
2822:5, 2822:13,
2822:19, 2824:36,
2825:9, 2825:18,
2833:33, 2833:38,
2834:13, 2834:19,
2836:43, 2839:44,
2840:29, 2843:11,
2843:20, 2845:2,
2852:22, 2853:46,
2854:43, 2854:45,
2855:20, 2856:11,
2858:36, 2859:8,
2863:15, 2870:21,
2871:2, 2875:18,
2882:39, 2884:21,
2884:40, 2885:1,
2885:7
update [1] - 2851:33
urgent [3] - 2829:43,
2830:41, 2889:21
urgently [1] - 2829:28
utmost [2] - 2842:43
2842:34, 2854:7, 2883:32, 2883:47,
V 2854:31, 2854:39 2884:14, 2884:17,
token [1] - 2877:19 2884:37, 2884:38,
vague [1] - 2799:31
value [1] - 2840:22
various [17] - 2788:28,
2803:30, 2803:40,
2803:45, 2805:36,
2810:27, 2816:12,
2823:25, 2823:46,
2824:33, 2838:26,
2842:16, 2846:16,
2867:42, 2877:10,
2885:38, 2888:38
vehicle [1] - 2839:16
venture [6] - 2806:22,
2806:30, 2806:35,
2807:13, 2807:17,
2807:21
Ventures [4] -
2885:45, 2886:3,
2886:11, 2886:38
ventures [5] -
2806:12, 2806:13,
2806:14, 2886:6
version [1] - 2791:12
Veterans [1] - 2795:28
veterans [9] -
2788:27, 2788:41,
2793:21, 2793:22,
2793:28, 2840:32,
2843:15, 2884:30,
2884:33
via [1] - 2820:9
Victoria [7] - 2824:38,
2824:41, 2824:43,
2824:46, 2825:7,
2825:21, 2843:8
view [16] - 2803:38,
2808:45, 2810:32,
2817:26, 2826:3,
2833:13, 2835:5,
2837:5, 2837:19,
2841:33, 2842:34,
2843:2, 2870:34,
2874:18, 2876:17,
2888:12
virtue [2] - 2830:29,
2835:8
volume [2] - 2791:1,
2806:37
Volume [4] - 2868:19,
2869:47, 2870:4,
2880:37
volumes [2] - 2786:38,
2786:47
VOLUMES [1] -
2787:3
tokens [1] - 2835:10 2884:40, 2885:4,
took [10] - 2818:44, 2885:9
2826:27, 2826:35, Trustees' [2] - 2880:5,
2826:41, 2826:44, 2880:13
2826:45, 2827:28, trustees's [1] - 2796:3
2832:26, 2866:32, Trustees's [1] -
2880:40 2837:32
top [2] - 2855:40, truth [1] - 2814:1
2865:47 try [3] - 2798:4,
topic [2] - 2812:38, 2801:16, 2846:17
2813:17 trying [12] - 2787:32,
total [1] - 2839:1 2794:13, 2799:22,
totality [1] - 2811:30 2809:9, 2814:34,
towards [4] - 2795:17, 2822:20, 2835:23,
2795:19, 2884:8, 2840:27, 2855:30,
2888:29 2856:32, 2863:44,
traction [1] - 2804:25 2874:27
Trading [24] - turn [9] - 2790:16,
2837:44, 2838:11, 2791:4, 2791:8,
2838:26, 2838:31, 2791:27, 2806:39,
2845:18, 2845:19, 2807:30, 2816:29,
2845:41, 2877:41, 2819:10, 2873:45
2877:47, 2878:10, turned [2] - 2788:1,
2878:25, 2878:32, 2811:16
2878:39, 2879:11, two [22] - 2787:29,
2879:12, 2879:16, 2788:5, 2789:7,
2879:26, 2879:39, 2802:39, 2809:35,
2879:44, 2880:2, 2809:37, 2820:8,
2880:6, 2880:13, 2828:12, 2831:9,
2880:14, 2880:21 2840:47, 2842:34,
trading [1] - 2838:9 2847:16, 2847:17,
train [1] - 2808:3 2847:42, 2849:37,
transaction [1] - 2854:18, 2862:30,
2836:8 2864:38, 2867:24,
transactional [1] - 2867:35, 2873:45
2867:1 type [2] - 2801:25,
transactions [5] - 2810:17
2798:37, 2798:38, types [1] - 2860:43
2798:43, 2818:46,
U 2856:24
transcript [2] - 2785:2,
ultimate [1] - 2862:19
ultimately [4] -
2841:41, 2842:39,
2842:42, 2842:45
Umrigar [6] - 2798:6,
2798:9, 2798:11,
2799:8, 2806:5,
2836:6
unaware [1] - 2874:22
uncomfortable [2] -
2862:7, 2863:8
under [11] - 2785:4,
2801:41, 2814:44,
2819:20, 2824:45,
2785:6
transfer [1] - 2852:5
transferred [2] -
2846:6, 2851:7
transit [3] - 2806:21,
2807:30, 2807:46
transition [2] -
2861:24, 2861:26
transitioned [2] -
2852:24, 2875:40
transitioning [2] -
2855:39, 2875:35
transpired [1] - 2849:1
treat [1] - 2842:20
treated [2] - 2792:5,
.13/10/2017 (25) 23
Transcript produced by DTI
volunteers [3] - 2808:9, 2808:15,
2808:33, 2808:44,
2809:2, 2809:12,
2810:36, 2811:1,
2811:9, 2811:17,
2811:37, 2814:10,
2814:14, 2814:30,
2815:2, 2816:11,
2816:42, 2817:2,
2817:3, 2817:11,
2817:18, 2817:22,
2817:27, 2818:22,
2818:27, 2818:35,
2819:29, 2819:35,
2820:14, 2822:31,
2822:39, 2823:9,
2823:13, 2823:30,
2823:34, 2824:26,
2824:34, 2824:43,
2825:4, 2825:13,
2825:14, 2825:37,
2825:38, 2825:45,
2826:12, 2826:24,
2826:32, 2826:40,
2826:45, 2827:19,
2827:28, 2827:36,
2827:37, 2827:39,
2827:45, 2828:17,
2830:18, 2830:25,
2830:29, 2830:38,
2832:8, 2833:43,
2834:3, 2834:28,
2835:13, 2835:15,
2835:18, 2835:21,
2835:26, 2835:31,
2835:40, 2838:25,
2838:32, 2838:38,
2839:4, 2839:5,
2839:38, 2839:46,
2840:1, 2840:38,
2842:14, 2842:20,
2842:27, 2842:32,
2843:10, 2844:19,
2844:24, 2844:43,
2845:19, 2846:5,
2846:6, 2846:12,
2846:17, 2847:1,
2847:11, 2848:2,
2848:7, 2849:7,
2849:18, 2849:23,
2849:26, 2849:29,
2849:31, 2849:35,
2849:40, 2850:12,
2850:26, 2850:40,
2850:43, 2851:10,
2851:30, 2851:35,
2851:36, 2851:39,
2851:45, 2852:42,
2853:18, 2853:27,
2855:1, 2855:24,
2856:5, 2857:18,
2857:23, 2857:38,
2858:10, 2859:29,
2859:31, 2859:32,
2860:13, 2860:34,
2860:40, 2861:19,
2861:20, 2861:23,
2861:28, 2861:37,
2862:36, 2862:37,
2863:29, 2863:33,
2864:21, 2865:9,
2865:29, 2868:38,
2871:27, 2871:44,
2872:14, 2872:16,
2872:47, 2873:18,
2873:20, 2873:41,
2874:13, 2874:29,
2874:35, 2875:2,
2875:16, 2875:31,
2877:2, 2877:21,
2877:27, 2877:30,
2878:10, 2878:15,
2879:15, 2879:44,
2880:1, 2880:9,
2881:9, 2884:11,
2884:23, 2884:25,
2884:26, 2884:34,
2885:9, 2887:13,
2888:28
WBI's [13] - 2801:36,
2807:19, 2819:20,
2824:45, 2835:4,
2835:5, 2836:43,
2850:13, 2852:44,
2853:1, 2874:7,
2874:18, 2880:22
WBI.15.0000010 [1] -
2865:36
WBI.15.0000017 [1] -
2866:38
website [26] -
2816:14, 2819:35,
2819:36, 2820:2,
2820:9, 2820:12,
2820:46, 2821:10,
2821:15, 2821:20,
2821:27, 2821:33,
2821:34, 2821:45,
2822:5, 2822:13,
2822:19, 2825:2,
2825:3, 2825:8,
2825:12, 2828:20,
2830:12, 2831:25,
2831:27, 2831:28
Wednesday [1] -
2889:30
WEDNESDAY [1] -
2889:37
week [5] - 2848:24,
2855:20, 2864:37,
2889:22, 2889:29
weekly [1] - 2816:12
weeks [4] - 2787:29,
2856:40, 2863:11,
2863:12
welfare [2] - 2831:36,
2843:6
Western [1] - 2823:35
whereby [1] - 2856:37
whilst [1] - 2867:13
White [3] - 2883:5,
2883:9, 2883:10
white [1] - 2883:13
whole [5] - 2787:45,
2789:25, 2791:41,
2806:18, 2887:40
willing [1] - 2840:14
wind [3] - 2799:15,
2839:46, 2840:1
Winter [1] - 2889:30
wish [2] - 2813:14,
2844:36
WITH [1] - 2787:3
withdraw [2] -
2874:38, 2874:44
WITHDREW [1] -
2889:10
WITNESS [3] - 2870:2,
2878:19, 2889:10
witness [6] - 2786:6,
2813:31, 2828:27,
2828:35, 2830:4,
2858:6
women's [3] -
2803:32, 2807:31,
2807:42
word [3] - 2833:7,
2870:23, 2871:19
wording [1] - 2878:7
words [1] - 2882:43
work-related [2] -
2860:19, 2860:24
works [1] - 2854:38
worried [1] - 2793:12
worry [1] - 2882:36
worrying [1] - 2828:36
wound [1] - 2799:13
write [2] - 2806:34,
2820:19
writing [1] - 2801:31
Y 2835:18, 2857:6,
2877:18
year [46] - 2787:16,
W 2794:33, 2794:47,
2795:1, 2795:17,
2797:32, 2798:7,
wait [2] - 2787:40, 2798:27, 2798:30,
2806:47 2799:21, 2799:33,
Wales [16] - 2785:23, 2799:41, 2800:12,
2821:38, 2823:10, 2801:22, 2801:26,
2823:14, 2823:31, 2806:1, 2816:43,
2824:4, 2824:22, 2828:4, 2833:30,
2824:27, 2824:35, 2836:23, 2837:10,
2824:45, 2825:1, 2842:25, 2846:12,
2825:22, 2825:29, 2847:6, 2847:22,
2825:33, 2845:40, 2847:23, 2848:18,
2850:26 2851:4, 2853:47,
walked [3] - 2790:8, 2854:10, 2854:32,
2790:10, 2790:12 2854:37, 2854:40,
wants [1] - 2855:2 2854:43, 2854:44,
WAS [1] - 2889:36 2854:46, 2855:1,
ways [2] - 2794:19, 2855:30, 2855:42,
2820:8 2855:44, 2857:15,
WBI [251] - 2786:10, 2865:7, 2877:42,
2786:32, 2787:6, 2877:43, 2884:18
2787:43, 2787:45, years [6] - 2798:39,
2788:4, 2788:13, 2826:9, 2841:10,
2788:18, 2788:32, 2858:11, 2865:30,
2788:38, 2788:42, 2882:5
2788:46, 2789:16, yes/no [2] - 2811:19,
2789:25, 2789:39, 2862:23
2789:40, 2790:24, Young [41] - 2845:38,
2791:24, 2791:28, 2857:16, 2857:22,
2791:34, 2791:41, 2857:37, 2861:13,
2792:4, 2792:14, 2861:18, 2862:3,
2792:22, 2792:29, 2865:7, 2865:25,
2792:32, 2793:9, 2865:27, 2866:10,
2794:23, 2794:32, 2866:30, 2866:44,
2794:45, 2795:4, 2867:21, 2867:24,
2795:8, 2795:26, 2867:33, 2868:7,
2795:35, 2796:18, 2868:8, 2868:12,
2796:23, 2796:26, 2869:30, 2870:33,
2796:29, 2796:33, 2870:38, 2870:39,
2797:27, 2797:31, 2871:10, 2871:23,
2797:47, 2798:23, 2871:38, 2872:8,
2798:35, 2799:27, 2872:25, 2872:43,
2800:31, 2801:42, 2873:17, 2873:34,
2802:7, 2802:16, 2874:12, 2874:17,
2802:35, 2803:3, 2874:21, 2874:22,
2803:5, 2803:21, 2874:23, 2874:30,
X 2803:30, 2804:5, 2874:35, 2874:47,
2804:9, 2804:32, 2875:16, 2875:30
XIONG [2] - 2815:24,
2815:25
Xiong [2] - 2815:10,
2815:35
XUONG [2] - 2815:13,
2815:23
2804:34, 2804:41, Young's [1] - 2868:3
2805:4, 2805:30, yourself [6] - 2789:26,
2806:16, 2806:20, 2792:13, 2792:14,
2806:26, 2806:27, 2792:21, 2805:3,
2806:30, 2807:13, 2861:32
2807:14, 2807:15,
2807:16, 2807:37,
2807:38, 2807:46,
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