Lisa Martin Day 1 Deposition

LISA MARTIN

IN D EX

vs.

OF

3DEPOSITION OF LISA MARTIN. takon

by and on bohalf of Plaintiffs, at 7701 Franco

Avo, So.. Edina. Minnesota on Wednosday. January

BY MR. SHO~MAKER:

~ Good morning, Ms, Martin. Would you state yourfull and legal name for the record?

A Lisa Marie Martin.MR. SHOEMAKER: For the record, I'm

going to introduce ny clients that are here.Kelly Brisson is here for the first case,Steinhauser, et aI, Mr. Frank Steinhauser, andalso Steve Johnson. MI. Engel?

MR. ENGEL: Matt Engel, attorneyfor plaintiffs in the third lawsuit, theGallagher case. Here with me today are my legalassistant, Tanya Hoven, Joseph Collins, TomGallagher and Sara Kubitschek.

MS. SEEBA: Louise Seeba on behalf

EXAMINATION

17,2007 commonclng at 9:30 a.m.. beforo Bronda

K. Foss. Notary Public. State of Mlnnosota,

County of Hennepin.

4

APPEARANCES

Matthew A. Engel. EsquireJohn R. Shoemaker, EsqUire7701 Franco Avo. So.. Suite 200Edina. MN 55435Appoarod 'or Plaintiffs

(~IHEREUPON, the following proceedings iiere duly had--)*

Loulso Toscano Seeba, EsqulroCity of St. PaulOfflco of tho City Attorney750 City Hall & Courthouse15 W. Kellogg Blvd.St. Paul. MN 55102Appoared 'or Defendants

Also present: Frank Stolnhausor. TomGallaghor, Steve Johnson. Joo Collins, SaraKUbltschok, Tanya Hoven. Stovo Magnor. KollyBrisson. Troy Allison. Dick L1pport

LISA M.~RTIN,

having been previouslydUly sworn, de~oses andsays as follows:

16

13

4

12

2

3

17

5

6

7

8

9

10

1 1

14

18

19

15

25

20

21

22

2324

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

1

2

Civil No. 04-2632 JNE/SRNvs.

DEPOSITION

Thomas J. Gallagher. ot al.Plaintiffs,

Takon on January 17. 2007Scheduled for 9:30 a.m.

Appearances. . . . . • . . • • • • • • . •• 3

Sandra Harrllal, ot al.Plaintiffs

City ot St. Paul, et ai,Dofondants.

Examination:By: Mr. Shoemaker•••••4

BRENDA K. FOSSJENNIFER RVAN COURT REPORTERS

2433 IRVING AVE, SO.MINNEAPOLIS. MINNESOTA 55405

(612) 377-6339

Stovo Magnor. ot ai,Dofondants.

Steve Magner, et al.Defendants.

ObJections:By: Ms. Sooba•.••.••13. 44. 48,

50.51. 59. 60. 63. 66. 67. 68. 103. 108. 112.116.118.119.120.136.143.145.146.157.163, 184, 186. 187, 188.220.223.230.232.233.234,245.262,275,276.278.300.309,343.346.358,368,380.385.386.401.422,426.439

Frank J. Steinhauser, III. ot 01.Plaintiffs,

(Original Doposltlon Transcript In thopossosslon of John Shoomakor. Esq.)

Caption••••..•...•••.•••.•

Index.•.••••....••..•• '" 2

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURTDISTRICT OF MINNESOTA

Repor'or's Certlflcafo...••.....450

vs.

Martin Deposition Exhibits:1 Doscrlptlon of Work 642 Rules and Procedures 2023 Handwritten notes 2834 Probable Causo Shoet 3115 Affidavit of Lachaka Cousotte 3226 Notos of 12/1 0/02 hoarlng 3817 2/5/04 CSP note 4028 Corroctlon Notlco 409

2

3

~.;:...\,

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

r".F""j,

1 ,',

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

r-"

"\ ,',:::~

24

25

EXHIBIT 21

Case 0:05-cv-01348-JNE-SRN Document 212-16 Filed 08/20/2008 Page 1 of 25

7512

~Q

of all defendants in all three cases. Here with 1 Q Did you go to grade school in South St. Paul?me today is deponent Lisa Martin, Mr. Dick 2 A Yes, I did.Lippert, and Hr. Steve Magner. 3 Q ilhat school was that?(Continuing by 11r. Shoemaker) Ms. Hartin, you I ve 4 A Roosevelt.

::> been at a number of the depositions taken here 5 Q Following your grade school, did you go to high6 in :he last month or month-and-a-month. 6 school iL the South St. Paul area as well?7 Correct? 7 A It was a junior high.8 A Yes. 8 Q And then a senior high?9 Q lihich depositions do you rememDer being at? 9 A Correct.10 A Officer Dean Koehnen, Andy Dawkins. 10 Q What was the name of the senior high?11 Q HoI\' much of the deposition of Mr. Koehnen were 11 A South St. Paul High School.12 you present for? 12 Q Did you graduate from there?13 A I believe I was there for the entire deposition. 13 A Yes, I did.14 Q HO~I about for Mr. Dawkins, how much of the t~IO 14 Q ilhere did you live in South St. Paul when you15 days of Mr. Jawkins' deposition were you 15 were a child?16 present? 16 A I grew up on 4th Avenue.17 A I believe half of the first day and half of the 17 Q ilhat 'das :he address there?18 sec:md day. 18 A 114.19 Q Just a couple of introductory instructions here 19 Q 4th Avenue?20 frc;c, the standpoint of helping the court 20 A South.21 reporter and also the attorneys with the 21 Q How long did you live in that?22 transcript and your review of the transcript if 22 A I was born in that home and stayed there until I23 you should decide to co so. I'm going to try 23 became married.24 today to not interrupt your answer. If you can 24 Q HO~I long a period ~Ias that that you lived in~__d_o_th_e_s_a_me_to_~la_i_t _fo_r_m_e_t_o_!_"u_ll_y_a_s_k_a --I1-2_5 t_ha_t_r_e_s1_'d_en_c_e'_' _

6 8I was there 18 years.Is that particular structure still there today?Yes, it is.Who owns that structure?I have no idea.What are your parentis names?Hedwig Schlemmer.How do you spell that?H-E-D-Iv- I-G.The last name?S-C-H-L-E-M-M-E-R.Are your parents still alive?My father is deceased.Where does your mother live?In Mendota Heights.What's the address there?I don't know the actual address.Do you know whereabouts the horne is?Off of 110 and Dodd.Tell me about the jobs that you've had prior tohigh school. Did you have any employment as apart-time employee at any time?

A I did. I was a dance instructor for DeniseYegal Dance Studio (ph). And also I worked asar. assistant for Southview Acres Nursing Horne.

1 A2 Q3 A4 Q5 A6 Q7 A8 Q9 A10 Q11 A12 Q13 A14 Q15 A16 Q17 A18 Q19 A20 Q2122232425

question, that way we won't have an overlap andthe court re~orter won't be looking at us with apuzzlement as to why we're double speaking. lidappreciate that. Secondly, if you don'tunderstand a question, just let me know. It maybe a confusing questio~. Counsel may object attines. Wait for the oJjection :0 be noted andthen answer. If you don't unde:stand it, let ~e

know and I will rephrase the question. Is thatokay?

A Yes.Q If you do answer a question, I will assune you

ur.derstood what I was asking. Is that okay?Yes.Is tiere any limitation that you have here todayfrom a standpoint of a physical or mental typecondition that would limit your participation ina questioning and answering period?No.Let's look at your background. I want to findout a little nore about you as an individual.Where did you grow up?

A South St. Paul.Q \1hat year were you born?A 1967.

,t.232425

1234567891011121314 A15 Q16171819 A20 Q~'

EXHIBIT 21


11

12reading samples of asbestos.

~ Give the letters of that NIOSH.A N-I-O-S-3.~ So you also took some training, not only 40

hours but the additional organization that youmentioned, training from that organization.Correct?

A Correct.~ Did that give you a certification?A Yes.~ What was the title of the certification that you

obtained?A I had two certifications. One was asbestos

abatement worker and one was asbestos abatementsupervisor.

~ How long did you maintain those certifications?A Approximately, four years.~ Describe the kind of work that you did with

asbestos abatement generally.A We tore down schools, buildings that had

asbestos in them.~ You removed certain components within those

structures --A Correct.~ -- that were asbestos?

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

Q What type of jobs did you have following higischool?

A Following high school, I worked in theconstruction business. I worked in theenvironmental business. I worked in theinsurance business.

Q Let's start in chronological order. What wasthe first job you had at the time that yougraduated from high school?

A It's so long ago. I'm guessing it was Brand ofCalifornia. It was a construction company.

~ \~here were they located?A San Francisco.~ Did you go to San Francisco?A Yes, I did.Q How long did you live there?A Six years.~ What type of living arrangement did you have?A My husband was in the military.Q When did you get married?A 1986.Q What was the name of your husband?A William Bergman.Q Where did you get married?A In San Francisco.

~L.

232425

9~ Did you do any of that type of work when you 1 ~ Where did you meet your husband?

were in high school as well? 2 A He was a friend of the family.A Yes. I worked full-time in high school. 3 ~ From the Minnesota area?Q Where did you work? 4 A Correct.

o A Southview Acres Nursing Home at night. 5 ~ So you transferred out or moved out to6 ~ What type of a position did you have there? 6 California. What year was that?7 A I was a nursing assistant. 7 A 1986.8 ~ That was full-time during high school? 8 ~ You lived there for six or seven years you said?9 A Correct. 9 A Correct.10 Q How many hours did you work a week there? 10 ~ What did you do when you were there in11 A At least 43. 11 California for your first employment?12 Q Did you have any other part-time jobs during 12 A I believe it was Brand of California13 high school? 13 Construction Company.14 A Yes. I was a dance teacher. 14 ~ What was the name of your boss there, do you15 ~ How many hours did you do that? 15 remember that?16 A Probably 8 to 16. 16 A I don't remember.17 ~ How long did you work in the role as a dance 17 ~ What type of work did you do?18 instructor? 18 A They did asbestos abatement.19 A I started dancing when I was 3 years old and I 19 ~ Did you have to take any special training in20 became an instructor at the age of 13. 20 order to work in the asbestos abatement field21 ~ How long did you actually work as ar: instructor? 21 there in California?22 A Until I graduated high school. 22 A Yes, I did.23 Q When you graduated from high school, did you 23 ~ Describe that for me.24 take employment anywhere? 24 A I had to take a 40-hour hazardous material~ _A_Y_eS_,_I_d_id_. -+_2_5 co_u_r_se_._I_a_l_so_t_oo_k_N_I_OS_H_S_8_2_t_ra_i_n_in_g_w_h_ic_h_l_'s_

101234567891011121314151617181920~.

12

f

EXHIBIT 21


13 151 A Correct, and demolition. 1 ~ Did he grow up in Minnesota?2 ~ What would you do with the materials that were 2 A Yes, he did.

t removed from the s:ructures that had asbestos 3 ~ Where did he grow up?components? 4 A On 14th Avenue in South St. Paul.

:::l A Bagged them up as hazard materials and had them 5 ~ How do you spell his last name?6 hauled away. 6 A B-E-R-G-M-A-N.7 ~ Was the California system set up where there had 7 ~ Do you ~now his middle initial?8 to be a licensed asbestos abatement company 8 A I believe it's J.9 doing that type of work in structures at the 9 ~ Did you have any other jobs when you were in10 time that you were working out there? 10 California for the six to seven years you were11 MS. SEEBA: Objection, foundation. 11 out there besides the construction abatement12 A I don't know. 12 type work you mentioned?13 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Did you understand 13 A When I was working for that company, I was14 that you had to have some asbestos training and 14 approached by an environmental company that was15 certification in order to do the work you were 15 on site and I started working for them.16 doing? 16 ~ Did you quit working then for the asbestos17 A Correct. 17 company?18 ~ How many people did you work with at that 18 A I did.19 company doing asbestos abatement work? 19 ~ Describe what type of work you did in the20 A Close to 2eo. 20 environmental area.21 ~ How many people did you actually have contact 21 A I was doing air sampling.22 with? 22 ~ Do you know the name of that company?23 A It depended on the job site. 23 A I don't.24 ~ Do you keep in contact with anybody from that 24 ~ How long did you work for the air sampling

~ particular construction company still? 25 company in the environmental field?\

14 161 A No, I do not. 1 A I believe it was one to two years.2 ~ What was the year that you left California? 2 ~ Why did you leave that position?3 A I believe 1990. 3 A Moved back to Minnesota.4 ~ Where did you go when you left California in 4 ~ Did you have an employment already lined up back5 1990? 5 here?6 A Back to Inver Grove Heights. 6 A No, I did not.7 ~ Your husband at the time you said was in the 7 ~ Do you remember any supervisor's name that you8 military? 8 worked with in the air sampling environmental9 A Correct. 9 company?10 ~ lihat branch was he in? 10 A His first name was Rick.11 A Navy. 11 ~ Did you have a good relationship from a work12 ~ What type of occupational specialty did he have? 12 standpoint with your supervisor there?13 A I have no idea. 13 A Absolutely.14 ~ Did his job require that he go to sea with 14 ~ How about with regard to the asbestos abatement15 others in his unit? 15 company, you did not recall who your boss was,16 A Yes. 16 but what was the reason you left that company?17 ~ How long were you married to Mr. Bergman? 17 A I took the position with the environmental18 A I believe it was two, maybe three years. 18 company so I was no longer doing asbestos19 ~ Were you divorced prior to leaving California? 19 removal. I was doing air sampling.

~A Yes, I was. 20 ~ Did you interview with the air sampling~ What county did you live in cut there, do you 21 environmental company while you were still

to£. know? 22 employed with the asbestos abatement work?23 A I don't recall. 23 A Yes, I did.24 ~ Does Mr. Bergman have any family in this area? 24 ~ What other types of employment did you have in25 A I have no idea. 25 California, Ms. Martin?EXHIBIT 21


12

r17 19

A It was so long ago. I don't recall if I had any 1 ~ Well, you've indicated you had military housingother positions there. 2 for three months and then a fourplex. Correct?

~ Did you have any part-time employment at all 3 A Yes.during the time you were in California? 4 ~ Where did you go after that for a residence?

~ A I don't believe so. 5 A We rented a home.6 ~ Are you sure about that? 6 ~ Did you have any other rentals besides that next7 A Like I said, it was a long time ago. I don't 7 home?8 believe so. 8 A I believe that was the last home before we moved9 ~ So the two positions in California that you've 9 back to Hinnesota.10 indicated that you recall were the asbestos 10 ~ So you had had two rentals then, the fourplex11 abatement ilork that you did and the 11 and the single family home, that you recall12 environmental air sampling 'dark. Correct? 12 being in while you were in California?13 A Correct. 13 101S. SEEBA: For the record, I think14 ~ Anything else that you can recall about any 14 she said a home after the military housing.15 other type of occupation or employment type work 15 A Right. I had military housing, and then there16 that you had in California? 16 was a home we rented, the fourplex, and then the17 A Not that I can remember, no. 17 last home that we rented.18 ~ It/hat type of residence did you live in when you 18 ~ (Continuing by Hr. Shoemaker) Thank you. The19 were working for the air sampling company? 19 rentals you were in, other than the military20 A That was a home that we rented. 20 housing, did you have any disagreements with21 ~ Asingle family type home? 21 your landlords in any of those three structures?22 A Correct. 22 A No.23 ~ How many residences did you have in California 23 ~ Let I s go to the time period then when you24 while you were living there during the pericds 24 returned to Minnesota, which you indicated was~__t_ha_t_yo_U_l_'n_dl_'c_a_te_d_? -t-2_5 a_b_ou_t_19_9_0_._Yo_u_c_a_m_e_b_ac_k_to_In_v_e_r_G_ro_v_e _

18 2012345678910111213141516171819

~~"232425

A Probably four.~ Did you rent each of those residences while you

were there in California?A Yes.~ Describe the first rental property that you

resided in in California.A Well, the first property was military housing.~ How long were you in the military housing?A I believe we were there for three months.~ Where did you go after that for a residence?A We rented a home off base.~ I'lhat type of a home was that?A It was just a standard single family home.~ How long did you have rental of that property?A I ~elieve c year.~ Then you moved to another rental structure, did

you?A Correct.~ What type of a structure was that?A Afourplex.~ Then did you have another rental between that

time and when you actually went into the singlefamily rental you indicated you were residing inwhen you were an air sampler?

A Can you clarify that?

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

Heights. Correct?A Correct.~ Tell me where you lived at that time.A I lived off of 78th Street in Inver Grove

Heights.~ What type of a structure was that?A Atownhome.~ I'las that a rental?A My husband worked for the company so we received

that as part of his salary.~ So you were divorced in California sometime

during the period that you were out there.Correct?

A Correct.~ Did you meet someone else then and end up

getting married in California?A Correct.~ Who did you meet that you married?A Christopher Jefferson.~ What year was that that you met Christopher

Jefferson?A I would have met him in 1987.~ What was he doing for an occupation or

employment at that time?A He was also working for Brand of California.EXHIBIT 21


21 231 Q The construction company you talked about? 1 Q How long did you live there?2 A Correct. 2 A Acouple years .

..J.... Q What year did you get married to HI. Jefferson? 3 Q Two years?~y . A It would have been 1989. 4 A Possibly. I don It recall.

::> Q Was Mr. Jefferson continuing to be employed by 5 Q How long were you married to 14r. Jefferson?6 the asbestos abateffient company, Brand of 6 A Ten years.7 California, when you left California? 7 Q Did you have any children with Mr. Bergman?8 A No. 8 A Yes.9 Q ~Ihat other employment did he have, if any, when 9 Q How many children did you have?10 you were in California? 10 A One.11 A He worked for amen's clothing store. 11 Q How old is that child now?12 Q Part-time? 12 A 19.13 A I don I t remember. 13 Q Where does your child from that marriage reside,14 Q Did he travel with you to Minnesota? 14 in Minnesota?15 A Yes. Actually, he ~ame here first. 15 A Her place of residency is South St. Paul.16 Q What employment did he have in Minnesota? 16 Q Did you have any children during your marriage17 A He didn It r.ave employment. He came here to look 17 with MI. Jefferson?18 for employment and housing. 18 A No.19 Q Did he have any relatives in this area? 19 Q How long were you married to MI. -- when were20 A No. 20 you divorced fron Mr. Jefferson?21 Q Where did he grow up? 21 A I believe it was 1999.22 A San Francisco. 22 Q Where were you residing when you were divorced?23 Q Ivhat employment did he take after he moved here 23 A On Dawson Way in Inver Grove Heights.24 to Minnesota? 24 Q Were you subsequently married following your

~_A_H_e_w_as_do_i_n_~ _m_ai_n_te_n_an_c_e_f_or_to_w_nh_o_m_es_. -t-2_5 d_iv_o_rc_e_t_"r_om_M_I._Je_f_fe_r_so_n_? _

22 241234567891011121314151617181920~

Lot!.

232425

Q Do you know who he worked for?A LaSalle.Q LaSalle what?A I think it's property management, but I'm not

sure.Q Where were they located?A In Edina.Q As you understood his position, where were the

properties that he was doing maintenance on?A Just the one we lived at.Q So was he in a role similar to a caretaker?A Yes.Q And that property was located in Inver Grove

Heights?A Right, 78th Street.Q How long did you live there?A I believe three years.Q Where did you go after that?A We bought a home in :nver Grove Heights.Q What was the address of that home?A 8251 Dawson Way.Q You said Dawson?A Correct, D-A-W-S-O-N.Q Way, W-A-Y?A Correct.

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

A Yes.Q Who did you marry?A Aaron Foster.Q How long were you married to Mr. Foster?A About a year.Q Did you have any children with Mr. Foster?A No.Q Where did you live when you were married to

MI. Foster?A On Western Avenue in St. Paul.Q What was the address?A I believe it was 1187.Q 1187 Western Avenue?A Correct.Q What type of structure was that?A Single fa~ily.

Q Do you remember the year that that property,approximately, was built?

A I have no idea.Q Is it an older home?A Yes.G What type of structure was it, three bedroom,

four bedroom, what? Describe that for me.A Two bedroom.Q When you were married to Mr. Jefferson and heEXHIBIT 21


25 27

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

A Yes.~ When did you have a subsequent marriage?A I was remarried in 2003.~ Who did you marry then?A Franklin Martin.~ How long were you married to Hr. Martin?A Currently.~ Have you ever been divorced from Mr. Martin?A No.~ Have you ever been legally separated from

Mr. Martin?A Never.~ I understand that you do not live in the City of

St. Paul. Correct?A Correct.~ Let's focus on the time period when you got back

to Minnesota from California. I want to talk alittle bit about your employment starting,approximately, in 1990. Can you tell me whatyour first job or employment position oroccupation was when you got back?

A I was an insurance agent for State FarmInsurance.

~ What agency were you working for?A I don't recall. It was just State Farm. Kevin

d.

232425

:J

6789101112131415161718192021222324

1234567891011121314151617181920~

123r

was working as a maintenance person for LaSalle, 1 Knutson was the agent.the owners of the LaSalle property, that was a 2 ~ Where was he located?larger unit structure, was it? You said 3 A In Bloomington on Lyndale.townhome? 4 ~ Does he still have an agency there?

A Yes. 5 A He switched from State Farm to Farmers Insurance~ What type of a townhome structure was that that 6 and I went with him then to Burnsville.

he did work for? 7 ~ Does he currently have an agency in Burnsville?A I believe it was 400 units. 8 A Yes, he does. He is still my agent.~ Did you receive rent in return for his 9 Q You took training then in order to become an

maintenance work, in other words, a rent credit? 10 insurance agent. Correct?A Correct. 11 A Correct.~ How many bedrooms was the townhome? 12 ~ Took a test and passed the test and got aA Three bedrooms, two bath. 13 license?~ Did Hr. Jefferson have any disagreements with 14 A Correct.

the owners of the property related to any issue? 15 ~ Do you still have a license?A No. 16 A No.~ You were married to Mr. Foster for a year you 17 ~ l'lhen did you let your license lapse?

said. Correct? 18 A When I stopped working as an agent.A Correct. 19 ~ When was that?~ What year were you divorced? 20 A I don't recall the date.A Let's see. 2001. 21 ~ Was it a long period of employment as an~ You were living in the Western Avenue property 22 insurance agent for both of those companies or a

when you were divorced? 23 short term?A Correct. 24 A I believe I was there for four to five years.

~_~_H_a_Ve_YO_U_ha_d_a_n_Y_S_ub_S_e_qu_e_nt_m_ar_r_ia_g_e_s ? --11-2_5__~_w_a_s_Y_o_ur_r_ol_e_w_i_t_h_t_he_i_ns_u_ra_n_c_e_a_ge_n_t_t_h_at_yo_u__

26 28indicated had two different insurance companies,was that a full-time position?

A Yes, it was.~ What type of sales role did you have? Did you

have to go out and make cold calls?A I did not really have to go out. I could stay

in the office and make calls from a phone book.Otherwise, we already had a lot 0: clients whereI was servicing their policies.

~ That particular position, why did you leavethat?

A I took a job -- I was working part-time for ahotel and I took a job as a manager at a hotel.

~ You were working part-time with another companywhile you were selling insurance full-time.Correct?

A Correct.~ What was the name of the company you were

working part-time for?A Drover's Hotel.~ Where were they located?A South St. Paul.~ How long did you work there?A I was there for, I believe, three years.~ What was your position there?EXHIBIT 21


3129A I started out as a front desk staff member and 1 A Yes.

became the general manager. 2 Q Describe those for me, would you?Q How many employees did you supervise as a 3 A I worked for Northwest Airlines as a ground

general manager? 4 equipment service operator.::> A I believe there was about ISO. 5 Q Part-time position?6 Q So that particular position went from part-time 6 A Correct.7 to full-ti]e. Is that correct? 7 Q What years did you work with Northwest?8 A Correct. 8 A I was there for just one year. I don't recall9 Q And is that the reason you left your insurance 9 the dates.10 sales position? 10 Q Any other part-time positions while you were11 A Yes, it is. 11 working at Excel Energy?12 Q What year did you become full-time at the hotel? 12 A Yes, St. Paul Police Department.13 A I don't remember the exact year. 13 Q ~lhat year did you start with the St. Paul Police14 Q Who did you report to as an immediate supervisor 14 Department?15 when you were working as a front desk person, do 15 A I believe that was in 2000.16 you recall that? 16 Q rlhat was your position there?17 A I don't recall. 17 A Dispatcher.18 Q Did you have a general manager once you got the 18 Q Was that a part-time position the entire time19 promotion at the hotel? You got a promotion. 19 you were with the St. Paul Police Department?20 Did you have someone who was above you? 20 A It started out part-time and then became full-21 A The owner. 21 time.22 Q Who was the owner? 22 Q ~lhat year did you start part-time?23 A James Graves. 23 A 2000.24 Q How do you spell that? 24 Q I'lere you also a dispatcher then in the full-time

~_A_G_-_R-_A_-V_-_E-_S_. -+-2_5 r_ol_e_w_i_th_th_e_p_O_1l_'c_e_d_ep_a_rt_m_en_t_? _

30 32

12

f

12345678910111213141516171819

~'t.c.232425

Q Do you know where Mr. Graves current:y lives?A No, I don't.Q Do you know if he is still at that particular

hotel?A No, he's not.Q When did you leave employment with the hotel?A I don't remember the exact date.Q What type of employment did you take following

departure from that company?A I left there to go to Excel ~nergy.

Q How long did you work at Excel?A I was there for, approximately, three years.Q What was your position there?A I started out as a customer service

representative and then supervised the nightcrew.

Q Was that a full-time position when you startedwith Excel Energy?

A Yes, it was.Q Did you have any part-time positions when you

had received the promotion at the hotel youmentioned?

A No.Q Did you have any part-time positions when you

were with Excel Energy?

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

A Yes.Q How long did you work for the police department

in a dispatch role?A Approximately, one year.Q And then did you take any further employment

with the police department?A No.Q Did you have any full-time work thereafter?A Yes.Q Where was that?A With code enforcement.Q So you transferred over from the police

department as a dispatcher full-time to codeenforcement in, approximately, 2000?

A That is correct.Q What type of training did you go through as a

dispatcher for the police department either in apart-time or full-time role?

A They had training on the job, but I was alsodispatching for Excel Energy.

Q Right. You were working for Excel Energy at thetime that you were also working for the policedepartment. Correct?

A Correct,Q Were you dispatching, as you described it, withEXHIBIT 21


33 351 Excel Energy as well? 1 it Mr. Moorhead?2 A Correct. 2 A It was -- I worked with Hr. Moorhead.~ Q So describe that position with Excel Energy. 3 Q Tell me the training that you went throughr What did you do? 4 either prior to or when you joined code~ A During any type of storms or outages, we would 5 enforcement that would relate to your position6 dispatch emergency crews for any type of fires 6 as a code enforcement officer.7 or situations. 7 A I think with the townhomes, with assisting my8 ~ Did you ever have any role in providing notice 8 husband with the rental properties. We did9 to any municipality that the energy -- 9 training when I was hired. I went out with area10 electricity was shut off on a property in your 10 inspectors who showed me the job.11 role at Excel Energy? 11 I have done training through the12 A No. 12 University of Minnesota through different13 Q So your dispatching was to dispatch emergency 13 building officials training courses.14 crews? 14 ~ Let's back up. You're talking about training15 A Correct. 15 prior to any formal type training with the city16 Q Any other type of dispatching work you did 16 as a code inspector. Correct?17 there? 17 A Correct.18 A No. 18 ~ Tell me about what type of work you did with19 Q The dispatch work that you did for the St. Paul 19 11r. Jefferson when you were married to him that20 Police Department, describe that generally. 20 related to maintenance work.21 A Taking 911 phone calls, typing information into 21 A Any of the maintenance work. He'd get calls22 the computer system so that it could be 22 regarding making repairs to the townhomes,23 transferred to the police officers in the field. 23 complaints, stuff like that.24 I worked channel 5, which is checking for 24 Q So he would get the calls or the complaints to~__w_a_rr_a_n_ts_,_m_i_ss_i_ng_ch_i_Id_r_en_,_s_t_o_le_n_v_e_hl_'c_Ie_s_.__---l1-2_5 do_ma_i_n_te_n_an_c_e_w_or_k_o_n_th_e_p_a_rt_i_cu_I_a_r_L_aS_a_ll_e _

34 3612345678910111213141516171819

~~L

232425

Q Who did you work for with the police departmentwhen you first started as a part-timedispatcher? Who was your supervisor?

A There were several supervisors.Q When you became a full-time dispatcher, did you

have an immediate supervisor?A It depended on the shift you worked, but I

believe Tim Butler was in charge.~ Of the dispatchers?A I believe so.Q Was that a union position with the St. Paul

Police Department as a dispatcher?A I don't remember.Q When you transferred over to code enforcement,

was that with the actual health department?A Not that I can remember. It was code

enforcement.Q Wha: was the name of the agency that you worked

for when you first transferred over to codeenforcement, do you recall?

A I believe it was code enforcement.Q Who was your supervisor?A 1'mnot sure.~ Was Mr. Lippert the head of code enforcement

when you first came to code enforcement, or was

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

rental property. Correct?A Correct.~ And you're saying you would assist him in his

response to the particular calls or complaints?A I was involved as the vice president of the

Board of Directors for that property. So Iwould track how many calls were related tomaintenance so that we could budget for any typeof major repairs that needed to be made to theproperty.

Q Tell me a little bit about your position as avice president for the ownership of thebuilding. Describe that for me.

A The Board of Directors were nominated by thetenants at the townhomes. We had meetings.

~ You had a townhome association of all of theindividuals that had ownership in theproperties?

A Correct.~ So you were in a vice president role in the

association. Correct?A Correct.~ How were complaints handled by the owners of the

various townhomes, as you recall?A They were usually called into the office andEXHIBIT 21


37 39123r~

then given to either the maintenance person or 1 Academy.the office manager depending on what the 2 ~ Let's talk about the nursing training first.complaint was. 3 Describe that for me.So if it related to any kind of repair issues, 4 A I went to St. Paul Vo-Tech, received my home

~ then it was given to your husband, 5 health aid and nursing assistant course.6 Mr. Jefferson, to handle. Correct? 6 ~ Did you work in that field at any time?7 A Or one of the other maintenance people. 7 A Yes, I did.8 ~ How many maintenance people were there on staff? 8 ~ Then you mentioned that you went to the9 A There were four. 9 California Police Academy. Correct?10 ~ Again, how many units do you recall there? 10 A Correct.11 A I believe there were 400, but 11mnot sure. 11 ~ What year did you go to the academy?12 ~ So the owners there were told that they should 12 A I graduated in 1990.13 contact the management or the maintenance staff 13 ~ How long of a program was that in California?14 in order to handle problems they had with regard 14 A It's a one-year program to be a police officer15 to their units. Correct? 15 in California.16 A Correct. 16 ~ You graduated from that program?17 ~ Do you know if any of the o~mers ever called any 17 A Yes, I did.18 type of code enforcement official regarding any 18 ~ Did you work as a police officer in any type of19 particular complaint that they had while you 19 a role?20 were married to Hr. Jefferson and were working 20 A No, I did not.21 with them? 21 ~ Did you seek employment in that area?22 A Not that I know of. 22 A No, I did not.23 ~ But the standard protocol was for the property 23 ~ Why is that?24 owners to deal with the owner and the owner's 24 A I was making more money as a hotel manager than~__m_a_na_ge_r_in_or_d_er_to_ha_n_dl_e_a_n_y_t_y_pe_Jf_re_p_a_ir_or_-t-2_5 a_s_t_ar_t_in_g_p_0_I_ic_e_0_f_fl_.c_er_wo_u_ld_m_ak_e_i_n_t_h_e_C_it_y_

38 401 maintenance issues. Correct?2 A Correct.3 ~ Describe the University courses that you took4 that you believe helped you in preparing for the5 code enforcement role that you took with the6 City of St. Paul.7 A There's annual courses that we can go to. Itls8 the basics of code enforcement.9 ~ Let me stop you there. I'm talking about prior10 to your joining the city code enforcement11 office. Had you taken any type of University or12 college courses?13 A For particularly building inspecting?14 ~ Right.15 A No.16 ~ Let's go back. You had your high school17 education. You got your high school18 certificate. Correct? You graduated from high19 school?20 A Yes.~ ~ What type of formal training did you take~L thereafter, any type of vo-tech or college type23 courses?24 A I took vo-tech courses in nursing and I25 graduated from the California State Police

1 of St. Paul, South St. Paul.2 ~ The police academy, tell me a little bit about3 how that partiCUlar course was set up. Was it a4 day program, night program?5 A That was a night program.6 ~ So you went through the night program of the7 academy for about a year. Correct?8 A Correct.9 ~ What type of subjects did you take there that10 would, you believe, relate in any way to your11 role as code inspector that you eventually took12 here in the City of St. Paul?13 A I believe differe3t training as far as handling14 certain complaints.15 ~ So you took coursework at the police academy in16 California that had a subject of how to deal17 with citizens in the community?18 A Correct.19 ~ What type of a course was that?20 A I don I t recall exact!y.21 ~ Was it a bookwork course or was it something22 where you actually had mockups of dealing with23 citizens? Do you remember anything about it?24 A We had scenarios. We had classroom. There were25 a lot of different areas covered.EXHIBIT 21


41 431 ~ The other training that you mentioned prior to 1 provided four individuals to work with in order2 becoming a code inspector -- we have got the 2 to have training as a code inspector?3 nursing training. We have got the 90lice 3 A All the different inspectors have different~ academy training. Any other formal education 4 areas. So there may be different complaints

o that you took prior to becoming a code 5 that you'd need to deal with.6 enforcement officer? 6 ~ When you say different areas, you're talking7 A No. 7 about different geographical areas within the8 ~ Since you have become a code enforcement 8 city?9 officer, what type of training have you taken 9 A Correct.10 outside of the City of St. Paul? Let's start 10 ~ Let's start with Mr. Vinge. Where was his11 chronologically. When you first became an 11 geographical area while you were training with12 inspector, what type of training did you have to 12 him?13 take? 13 A I don't recall.14 A Can you clarify that? 14 ~ Do you remember any of the areas that you were15 ~ When you first became an inspector, did you have 15 trained in in the city with the four area16 to take so:ne type of training before you 16 inspectors?17 actually were placed in the field to handle code 17 A No, I don't.18 issues for the city? 18 ~ Were you trained in only certain areas of town?19 A Yes. 19 A I don't recall.20 ~ Describe that for me. 20 ~ Do you have any recollection at all as to where21 A I was assigned to the area inspecto:s, and I 21 you actually took training within the city from22 would spend time with them on their route and 22 a geographical sense?23 see how they would handle si tuations . 23 A No, I don't.24 ~ The area inspectors, at the time you joined code 24 ~ But you do know that the four areas had~__e_nf_o_rc_e_me_n_t_,_wh_o_w_e_re_t_he_y_? +-2_5 d_if_f_er_e_nt_ty_p_es_o_f_c_om_p_la_i_nt_s_? _

~ ~

1234567891011121314151617181920rLL.

232425

A Jean LaClaire, Paula Seeley, Tom Friel, JimPrill, Steve Schiller.

~ Are all of them still there with codeenforcement?

A Yes.~ How many of them did you work with in your

training phase as a code inspector?A I don't remember.Q Do you remember which ones you did ~IOrk with?A Yes.~ Who was that?A Jean LaClaire, Paula Seeley, Maynard Vinge, and

Harold Robinson.~ Any of those you worked with more than the

others?A No.~ What type of work did you do with each of those

individuals that you've mentioned?A Went out in the field. They showed me how their

co:nplaints came in, how they respond to them,and how to write up paperwork.

~ Did each of them have the same type of trainingfor you?

A I don't understand the question.~ Why was it that you believe that you were

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

MS. SEEBA: Objection, form.A I don't remember.Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) But your

recollection now as the reason that you trainedwith four area inspectors is because their roleswere a little different. Is that right?

A No, that's not what I said.~ Describe that for me, why it was you believe you

had to work with four different inspectors.A I don't know the reason why I would work with

four different inspectors.~ The role that you played in learning the process

that they had, was it any different from astandpoint of any of those area inspectors?

A Not that I can recall.~ Did they have the same method of teaching you?A Describe that.~ I want to know -- if you're a student and you're

learning from four area inspectors who have beenwith the city for a period of time. Correct?

A I don't know how long they have been with thecity.

Q Were you told that you were training with themwhen you were going with them?

A Yes.EXHIBIT 21


4745Ci What did they teach you, in particular, that you 1 A I was assigned an area.

recall? 2 Ci So was it your understanding that once youA How to respond to complaints and how to write 3 completed the training with the four area

them up. 4 inspectors, that then you were finished with~ Ci What did they say on how to respond to 5 your training as it related to at least getting6 complaints? 6 to the point where you could become a code7 A I don't recall the exact -- 7 inspector yourself without anyone with you?8 Ci Do you remember anything in general as to what 8 A Yes.9 they told you as to how to respond :0 9 Ci What area were you assigned to, that you recall,10 complaints? 10 as an inspector following your training with the11 A No, I don It. 11 area inspectors?12 Ci Do you remember the process that they described 12 A I believe it was off of Rice Street.13 or. how to deal with complaints? 13 Ci How big of an area was it?14 A Nc. 14 A I don't recall.15 Ci Do you remember any particular types of issues 15 Ci Was there any bookwork that you had to go16 that were significant to them that they were 16 through? By that, I mean study materials that17 telling you about? 17 you had to look at during the period that you18 A No. 18 were working with the area inspectors?19 Ci How about the issue of exterior inspections, do 19 A They showed me the different codes, ordinances,20 you recall anything from your training about 20 policies, procedures.21 that? 21 Ci How did they show you those?22 A No. 22 A They had information written down.23 Ci Ivhen you were working with the four area 23 Ci Was it in the office where these materials were24 inspectors, did you have any opportunities with 24 located?~__a_ny_of_th_e_m_t_o_g_a_in_a_c_c_es_s_t_o_t_h_e_i_n_te_r_io_r_o_f__..-2_5__A_Rl_'g_ht_. _

46 48

12

~

12345678910111213141516171819

~'t.£232425

any structures within the City of St. Paul?A I don't recall.Ci So how long was this period of training with the

four area inspectors?A 11mnot even sure.Ci Was it more than a week?A It may have been.Ci Was it more than two weeks in length?A It's possible.Ci 11mtalking about the total training with the

four area inspectors that you mentioned. Wasthe training more than three weeks long?

A I don't recall the length.Ci You don It remember how long it was?A No.~ Do you have any recollection as to what occurred

following your work with those four areainspectors?

A Can you clarify that?~ Youlre not sure how long your training took

place with the four area inspectors. So myquestion is: What did you do following the endof that training with the four area inspectorsas it related to code enforcement in your rolewith the city?

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

~ That's true?A Yes.~ Were they in a manual that you recall?A I don't recall.~ Was there an employee manual for the code

enforcement officers when you were in yourtraining portion of the code enforcementemployment?

A I don't recall.~ At any time was there an employee manual with

code enforcement from that point to the present?A I don't recall.~ You don't know if there's a training manual?A No, I don't.~ Do you know if there's an employee manual at

NHPI currently?A I don't know.~ Have you ever looked at an employee manual at

the City of St. Paul that would relate to yourrole as a code enforcement officer?

MS. SEEBA: Objection. Are youasking about something entitled employee manual?

~ Well, any type of an employee manual, a manualthat relates to your role as an inspector.Whether it's called an employee manual, codeEXHIBIT 21


5112

49enforcement employee manual, any type of a 1 ~ You said you glanced through them. How longmanual that you'd look to for any type of 2 would it take to glance through the rules ifdirection or information in your role as a code 3 they were 15, 20 pages long?enforcement officer, that's what I'n referring 4 MS. SEEBA: Asked and answered.

o to. 5 A I don't recall how long I took.6 MS. SEEBA: You're talking about 6 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Any other type of7 any other codes, ordinances, policies, 7 a document, other than w3at Mr. Dawkins8 procedures other than those things? 8 prepared, that would be similar to that9 ~R. SHOEMAKER: Right. Do you 9 providing guidance to you as a code inspector10 understand my question? 10 from the time that you joined the code11 THE WITNESS: No. 11 enforcement office in the year 2000?12 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) I'll rephrase it. 12 A Not that I remember.13 l'lith that definition that I gave to you, you 13 ~ The training that you mentioned with the four14 understand the definition? 14 inspectors, was that full-time training?15 MS. SEEBA: Give it again. 15 A Yes.16 ~ 11hat I'm looking for is whether or not at any 16 ~ So when you were going through the training,17 time you've been a code enforcement officer for 17 what time did you start your morning?18 the City of St. Paul, has there been any type of 18 A I don't recall what time it was.19 an employee manual or booklet that would provide 19 ~ Was it early in the morning that you would start20 you with instructio:ls as a code inspector other 20 with area inspectors during your training?21 than city code provisions, ordinances, any type 21 A Yes.22 of fire safety life codes? 22 ~ Was it a full day that you would work with the23 A The only thing I can recall -- I have never seen 23 area inspector?24 anything that says employee manual. I know Andy 24 A Yes.~__D_aw_k_in_s_p_u_t_t_og_e_t_he_r_g_u_id_e_ll_'n_es_._O_t_he_r_t_h_an__--t_2_5__~_Wh_e_n_y_o_u_s_ta_r_te_d_tr_a_in_i_n9_,_d_i_d_y_ou_wo_r_k_w_i_th_an__

50 5212345678910111213141516171819

fl~2

232425

that, no.~ You're talking about the Rules and Procedures

that Mr. Dawkins put together that were not onlyfor the code inspectors but also for the pUblicas it related to time lines to get work done,that kind of a thing?

MS. SEEBA: Objection, foundation.A Correct.~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you recall

Mr. Dawkins preparing Rules and Procedures forthe code inspectors to use?

A Yes.~ It was your understanding that those were for

the benefit of the property owners in the cityas well?

A I don't know what it was for.~ But you looked at them?A Yes.~ Did you read them thoroughly?A I glanced through them, yes.~ How long did you take to look at Mr. Dawkins'

rules that he put in place in 2002?A I don't recall.~ Did you spend an hour looking at them?A I don't recall.

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

area inspector first and then complete thetraining with that inspector before you went tothe next area inspector for training?

A I don't understand your question.~ How was the training set up? Did you work with

one area inspector first and then you weretransferred over to another area inspector to dofurther training, or did you work with all ofthem kind of off and on?

A From what I remember, I worked with an areainspector for a day. And then the next day Iwent with another area inspector.

~ So that was the process that you worked with forthe period of time that you were training as youwould work with different area inspectorsdepending upon the day. Correct?

A Correct.~ Did you have office meetings during the time you

were training?A Uot that I remember.~ Did you take any night coursework during the

time that you were training as a code inspector?A tlo.~ Following your period of time that you worked

with the area code inspectors, what additionalEXHIBIT 21


53 551 training do you recall that you went through 1 other institutions, what other training have you2 that was in addition to that area inspector 2 taken that relates to your role as a code3 training? What was the next trainir;g that you 3 inspector since you joined the city in 2000?

r took? 4 A Just training that the supervisors have::l A I guess I don't understand your question. 5 provided. If you have questions, they will come6 ~ Was that the end of your training when you 6 to the field and assist.7 finished up with the four area inspectors, or 7 ~ Is there two types of training there that you're8 did you take further training as a code 8 describing? If you have a question they will9 inspector? 9 come out and give you assistance in the field.10 A I don It remember. 10 Correct?11 ~ You don't remember any other training following 11 A Absolutely.12 your work with the four area inspectors as you 12 ~ What other type of training have the supervisors13 indicated? 13 provided?14 A We had annual training that we would go to. 14 A I don't recall that if there's been any formal15 ~ Where was that? 15 training.16 A Usual!y the University of Minnesota. 16 ~ Has there ever been, since you joined in 2000,17 ~ What other institutions did you take training 17 any type of training classes that any supervisor18 at? 18 has put on at the code enforcement office or19 A There's a couple different places that we 19 some other particular classroom?20 received training from. 20 A I remember when Andy Dawkins was the director.21 ~ Do you remember where those were at? 21 He had some type of training where he brought in22 A I believe there was a course in Maplewood and 22 different groups to talk about different things23 the other one was at the University of 23 that they would do.24 Minnesota. So I'm not sure. 24 ~ Do you remember where those particular meetings

~~ Were these one-day type courses? 25 or classes took place?

54 561 A Yes. 1 A It was at the Bingo Hall on White Bear Avenue.2 ~ The University of Minnesota type courses that 2 ~ Who attended those types of training meetings?3 you took on an annual basis, describe that for 3 A The majority of the inspectors and supervisors.4 me, would you please? 4 ~ Do you remember who it was or what organization5 A It's the Building Official's Training Institute. 5 came to those meetings that Mr. Dawkins had6 Usually there's two days every year that we go 6 invited there?7 to training. They cover different subjects. 7 A I believe Section 8 was one of them. I think we8 ~ Have you gone to that type of training every 8 had a meeting with the licensing, the LIEP9 year since you became a code inspector in the 9 office, and the fire department.10 year 2000? 10 ~ Let's focus on the fire department. What do you11 A No. 11 remember about that particular meeting, training12 ~ Which years have you missed that University of 12 meeting?13 Minnesota training? 13 A Not much.14 A Last week. 14 ~ Do you remember who came over from the fire15 ~ That was the first year that you missed? 15 department to do the training?16 A I may have missed one other one. 16 A No, I don It.17 ~ When you missed those, did you take some other 17 ~ Do you remember how many fire inspectors came18 type of training to fill in for that training? 18 over?19 A No. 19 A No, I don It.20 ~ Is there a requirement at the city for you to 20 ~ Were they fire inspectors?r take a certain number of classes or coursework 21 A I don't know..c.2. every year in order to stay as a code inspector? 22 ~ Do you remember the topics of discussion from23 A 11mnot aware of that. 23 that particular meeting?24 ~ Other than the training you've indicated with 24 A Nope.25 the University of Minnesota and a couple of 25 ~ How about the meeting with the LIEP, LicensingEXHIBIT 21


59123r

57Inspection Environmental Protection, employees 1 A I don't recall.or officials, do you recall anything about that 2 ~ Do you remember anything about the meeting atmeeting? 3 all?

A Nope. 4 A No, I don't.~ ~ Do you remember the subjects discussed during 5 ~ Do you remember Mr. Dawkins having the Section 86 that meeting? 6 inspectors over at the White Bear office at any7 A No. 7 time during 2002 to 2004?8 ~ What time period was the meeting with LIEP 8 A I don't know that they were inspectors. I just9 officials? Was that early on in your career as 9 know he invited someone from Section 8 to come10 a code enforcement officer or more recent? 10 out for a meeting.11 A I think it was either 2003 or 2004, but I don I t 11 ~ Do you remember that the Section 8 inspectors12 remember. It was a long time ago. 12 provided cards to the inspectors from your13 ~ So either 2003 or 2004 you recall a meeting with 13 office?14 the LIEP officials and the code inspectors. 14 MS. SEEBA: Objection, form.15 Correct? 15 A I don't recall that.16 A Yes. 16 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you ever17 ~ Then let's focus on the Section 8 training 17 remember meeting any Section 8 inspectors at any18 meeting you had. What do you recall about that? 18 time since 2000 when you joined as a code19 A He invited someone from Section 8 to talk about 19 inspector?20 what programs they have. 20 A Not that I can remember.21 ~ You're talking about ~Ir. Dawkins had invited 21 ~ Could have happe:1ed? You just don't recall?22 someone from Section 8 to talk about the 22 A That is correct.23 programs that they had? 23 ~ Did you ever meet Rita Ander from Section 8 at24 A Right. 24 the Public Housing Agency?(A_~_w_a_s _t_he_i_nd_i_vl_'d_ua_l_£r_o_m_s_ec_t_i_on_8_a_n_o_f_f_ic_i_al_o_r--if-2_5__A_N_o_,_n_o_t_t_h_at_I_r_e_ca_I_I_. _

58 601234567891011121314151617181920

(F""toL.

232425

was the individual an inspector?A I have no idea.~ But you indicated earlier that you t10ught it

related to Section 8 inspections? Is that whatyou recall?

A I just know that it was Section 8. I'm not sureif it was inspections or programs or whatexactly it was.

~ Where did that meeting take place?A In the Bingo Hall on White Bear Avenue.~ Who was present at that meeting?A I don't remember. It was the majority of the

inspectors and supervisors usually.~ You're saying usually the meetings that you've

described with LIEP with Section 8 and with fireprevention would include the majority of theinspectors and supervisors?

A Correct.~ In this case with Section 8, do you believe that

that was the case as well where the majority ofthe inspectors and supervisors from your officewould have been there?

A Yes.~ How many individuals were from Section 8 that

were at that meeting?

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

~ Let's go back to your training. Did you haveany training during the 2000 time period forwardwith regard to what constituted a violation ofChapter 34 as it related to exteriors ofproperties?

A Can you clarify that?~ Well, you use Chapter 34, do you not, as an

inspector when you look at exterior propertiesin the city?

A Yes.~ What is your understanding of Chapter 34 -

MS. SEEBA: Objection.~ -- as it relates to the code inspector role that

you have?MS. SEEBA: Form.

A That I'm there to do inspections if I have acomplaint.

~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Okay. But do youlook at Chapter 34 when you're on a complaint,or do you use it as a basis I should say forhandling the complaint?

A I guess I'm not sure what your question is.~ What do you use as a source as to whether or not

there is or is not a code violation on anexterior of a home?EXHIBIT 21


61 631 A Chapter 34 pretty nuch states what is and what 1 in the City of St. Paul besides Chapter 34?2 isn't. 2 A Again, I'm not sure what you're asking.

f· Q Let's go back. When was the first time you 3 Q Do you understand the question? What source dorecall looking at Chapter 34 of the city's 4 you use for making a determination on a property

:l legislative code from the time that you started 5 that there's a code violation? You indicated6 in 2000 as a code inspector? 6 that you looked at Chapter 34. Is there7 A I believe I pulled it up on the Internet before 7 anything else you look at in order to make that8 my interview for the position. 8 determination?9 Q Who did you interview with in order to take a 9 A Not that I can think of.10 position with the city's code enforcement? 10 Q You mentioned that you looked at the 2002 rules11 A I don't recall who was all -- it was a panel 11 of procedures that Mr. Dawkins put together.12 interview. 12 You said you had a quick glance at it?13 Q How many interviews did you go through? 13 MS. SEEBA: Objection. That's not14 A I believe it was just one. 14 what she said.15 Q Prior to your interview, you pulled up Chapter 15 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you use that as16 34 and looked through the particular codes? 16 well in your role as a code inspector?17 A Correct. 17 A At times that is a guideline, yes.18 Q Did you look at the entire Chapter 34 provision 18 Q Do you maintain a personal copy of that in your19 before you had your interview? 19 files?20 A I don't recall. 20 A Yes.21 Q How many times after have you looked at 21 Q Do you keep copy of the Rules and Procedures22 Chapter 34? 22 that Mr. Dawkins put in place with you when you23 A Many times. 23 make inspections in the field?24 Q Many times. Do you maintain a personal copy of 24 A No.

IA that in your files? 25 Q Do you keep that back at your office?

62 641 A Yes. 1 A Yes.2 Q Do you update that? 2 Q How many different Rules and Procedures,3 A No. 3 versions of those Rules and Procedures do you4 Q So what version do you have of Chapter 34 in 4 recall Mr. Dawkins having put in place?5 your personal file that you use? 5 A I don't recall.6 A I have no idea. 6 Q Do you know if it was more than one?7 Q When is the last tine you looked to see what 7 A I don't know.8 version it was? 8 Q How many different copies of the Rules and9 A I reprinted a copy probably six months ago. 9 Procedures do you recall having yourself?10 Q Do you have a policy of printing updates for 10 A I have one.11 Chapter 34 for your use in the field as an 11 Q Do you know what the date is on that particular12 inspector? 12 Rules and Procedures?13 A I'm not aware of anything. 13 A No, I don't.14 Q So has there ever been a policy that you know of 14 Q Nhen is the last time you looked at the Rules15 in code enforcement where the inspectors are 15 and Procedures?16 told to make sure they had the current copy of 16 A I don't remember.17 Chapter 34? 17 Q What is the title of your position as a code18 A It's possible. I'm not aware of it. 18 inspector when you first took over, when you19 Q You don't recall any supervisor making a point 19 first took the position in 2000?

~to you that you should have the current copy of 20 A I believe it was environmental health inspector.the code? 21 IDeposition Exhibit No. I was

't.t. A I don't recall that. 22 marked for identification.)23 Q What other sources do you use as a code 23 Q I'm showing you what the court reporter has24 inspector to make a determination whether there 24 narked Martin Exhibit 1. Take a look at that.25 is a code violation on an exterior of a property 25 It's Bates number STP 442 to 443.EXHIBIT 21


65 6712

tA (Witness examining document). 1 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you believe it~ Do you know when this particular document was 2 was number 3 there, the two years of experience

actually prepared by the city? 3 in a position equivalent to an environmentalA No, I don I t. 4 health inspector?

:> ~ Have you ever seen this before? 5 A I don't know.6 A It looks familiar. 6 MS. SEEBA: Same objection.7 ~ Do you see the effe:tive date on the first page 7 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Did you tell --8 in the upper right that says 7/13/91? 8 MR. SHOEMAKER: Let the record9 A Correct. 9 reflect counsel and Ms. Martin have conferred.10 ~ Do you recall receiving a copy of this when you 10 MS. SEEBA: Let the record reflect11 were applying for the position as code 11 that I asked her if human resources was the12 enforcement officer? 12 department that determined her qualifications13 A I did receive something similar. I don't know 13 and not her herself. That's exactly what I said14 if this is the exact one. 14 to her.15 ~ But you recall a document that indicated what 15 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Ms. Martin, did16 the particular position was that you were 16 you have any contact with human resources during17 applying for would involve. Correct? 17 your interview with the individuals that you18 A Yes. 18 said interviewed you as part of the process for19 Q And what the qualifications were as well? 19 obtaining employment with the city?20 A Yes. 20 A I believe I received an application from human21 Q Turn to the second page, if you would, where it 21 resources.22 says minimum qualifications. Do you recall what 22 ~ And you filled ot.:t the application and then23 the minimum qualifications were told to you by 23 provided that to who?24 the people that were interviewing you? 24 A Human resources.~_A_N_O_. --1_2_5__~_M_y_Sa_m_e_q_ue_s_t_io_n_i_s_:_W_ha_t_w_a_s_y_o_ur_un_d_er_s_ta_n_d_in_g__

66 6812345678910111213141516171819

~~2

232425

~ Do you see here the minimum qualifications,page 2, Bates 0443, where it says Associates ofArt Degree with 15 credits. Did you have anAssociates of Arts Degree when you applied?

A I have the credits, yes.Q You had the credits?A Yes.~ But you didn't have an actual Associate of Arts

Degree, did you?A No.~ You had 15 credits related to environmental

health at tte time you applied for the codeenforcement position?

A Like I said, I don't know if these were thequalifications when I came on.

~ From what it looks like here t you could haveeither 15 credits related to environmentalhealth or one of the following. Do you see thethree numbers there?

A Yes.~ Read those to yourself and tell me which one of

those you believe you qualified for underminimum qualifications.

MS. SEEBA: Objection, foundation.A (Witness examining document) .

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

as to how you met the minimum qualifications?MS. SEEBA: Foundation.

~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Did you have anunderstanding as to how you met the particularqualifications for the position as environmentalhealth inspector or, as you indicated, codeinspector?

MS. SEEBA: Same objection.A No.~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Did anyone that

you interviewed with explain how they believedyou met the minimum qualifications?

A Not that I recall.~ Let's go back to the first page under General

Duties. At the top of the page, Bates 0442, itindicates there that you investigate complaintsas an environmental health inspector. Correct?

A Where are you?~ At the top of the page under General Duties. Do

you see that?MS. SEEBA: Are you asking her if

that's what the document says?MR. SHOEMAKER: I'm asking whether

or not she investigates complaints as anenvironmental health inspector.EXHIBIT 21


12

~

69 71MS. SEEBA: So nothing relating to 1 A It's two-sided. One has my photo and 10 and the

this document. But you want to know if she 2 other side has the actual badge.investigates complaints? 3 ~ Is it contained with a lanyard so that you can

MR. SHOEMAKER: Well, it does 4 place it around your neck?~ relate to the document. It says general 5 A Yes.6 duties, and I want to know if she investigates 6 ~ Does it have any metal portions on the badge?7 complaints. 7 A What do you mean by metal?8 A What is your definition of investiga:ing? 8 ~ For example, do you know what a police badge9 Q (Continuing by MI. Shoemaker) Well, this is the 9 looks like?10 description of your particular role as an 10 A Yes.11 environment health inspector. Let me ask you a 11 Q Is it similar to a police badge?12 preliminary question. Is your current title 12 A Yes.13 with the city environmental health inspector? 13 Q So will it have the name of City of St. Paul on14 A I don't know. 14 the badge?15 Q What do you know as it relates to your title in 15 A I believe so.16 your role as a city employee? 16 Q Does it have your badge number?17 A I know that they're looking at combining 17 A I believe so.18 licensing and fire inspectors in our department. 18 Q Does it have code inspector written on it?19 So I'm not sure what our title is or going to 19 A It's possible. I don't know.20 be. 20 Q Your picture is on the back side of the badge?21 Q l~ell, what has been your title for the last six 21 A Right, with my 10.22 years besides environmental health inspector? 22 Q ~Ihat type of ID?23 A I don't know what human resources has lis ted. I 23 A City of St. Paul.24 put inspector. I have had environmental health 24 Q You have an ID m:mber?~__l_'n_sp_e_ct_o_I._I_h_a_ve_ha_d_p_r_ob_l_em_pr_o_pe_r_ty -+_2_5__A_I_d_o_n_'t_k_n_ow_. _

70 721 inspector. I don't know if any of those have2 officially been titles.3 Q Do you have a badge that has been issued to you4 as an employee for the City of St. Paul?5 A Yes, I do.6 Q What does your current badge say?7 A I don't know.8 Q When is the last time you looked at it?9 A Probably when I received it.10 Q Do you take it with you in the field?11 A Yes.12 Q Do you do that every day?13 A Yes.14 Q Where do you carry the badge with you?15 A Usually in rr.y pocket or on my neck.16 Q So you don't know what it says as you sit here17 today?18 A No, I don't.19 Q Have you ever showed your badge to any property20 owner?r A Yes.d. Q I~hen did you last do that?23 A I don't know. Probably within the last six24 months.25 Q Can you describe the badge for me?

1 Q What do you mean by ID?2 A It just says City of st. Paul. It's a photo 103 showing that you're an employee of the city.4 Q But you're not sure if it has an 10 number on5 it?6 A I have no idea.7 Q Read aloud, if you would, under General Duties,8 that paragraph slowly please.9 A "Performs skilled technical work involved in10 investigating complaints and conducting11 inspections of public and private facilities to12 determine compliance with public health and13 safety regulations and ordinances; and performs14 :elated duties as required. II

15 Q Is that what you have done as an environmental16 health inspector since 2000 for the city?17 A Yes.18 Q Describe for me the work you do as it relates to19 investigating complaints in your role as an20 environmental health inspector.21 A I respond to a complaint to see if it's valid or22 not.23 Q How do you obtain complaints as an inspector?24 A There's a variety of ways to receive complaints.25 It could be a neighbor calling in. It could beEXHIBIT 21


73 751 a police department calling in. 1 A If I have been at a community meeting.2 Q So do you receive complaints directly from 2 Q So at community meetings you may be approached3 neighbors? 3 by neighbors about a property?r A Oftentimes, yes. 4 A Correct.~ Q In 2000 when you became an employee for the City 5 Q What type of coromunity meetings are you talking6 of St. Paul, did you have a cell phone? 6 about?7 A Yes. 7 A I have been to -- I believe they're district8 Q Who provided you with a cell phone? 8 council meetings, but I'D not sure.9 A I believe our department. 9 Q You're not sure if they were titled district10 Q Have you had a cell phone provided to you as an 10 council meetings?11 inspector since 2000? 11 A No, I don't.12 A Yes. 12 Q Could they have been block club meetings?13 Q And you've always maintained a cell phone with 13 A Probably.14 you during your work as an inspector? 14 Q How often do you go to block club meetings,15 A Usually, yes. 15 neighbor type meetings?16 Q Do you have voice mail capabilities as well? 16 A Maybe twice, three times a year.17 A Yes. 17 Q Back in 2000 when you were doing your training,18 Q Have you had voice ~ail capabilities since you 18 did any of your area inspectors take you to any19 first received a cell phone with the City of 19 district council, block club, neighborhood20 St. Paul in 2000? 20 meetings, that kind of thing?21 A I don't recall. 21 A Not that I can remember.22 Q When do you recall having voice mail 22 Q When do you recall first going to any type of a23 capabilities first as an inspector? 23 neighborhood meeting, whether it was a district24 A Acouple years ago. 24 councilor block club or other neighborhood

~Q Dc you obtain from time to time messages from 25 meeting?

74 761 property owners on your voice mail? 1 A There was a meeting off of Rice Street at a2 A Yes. 2 coffee shop, and I believe that was -- I think3 Q What has been your protocol as far as for how to 3 it was District 6, but I'm not sure.4 respond to those type of messages that are left 4 Q What year was that?5 by property owners on your voice mail? 5 A I think that was like 2002 possibly.6 A Describe what type of message. 6 Q How long did that meeting take place that you7 Q What type of messages do you receive from 7 remember?8 property owners? 8 A I believe it was an hour-and-a-half.9 A Many. 9 Q Who was present at that meeting?10 Q You receive complaints from property owners on 10 A Greg Simbeck. 11mnot sure how you say his last11 your voice mail? 11 name.12 A No. 12 Q Someone from the district council that was in a13 Q How do you receive complaints from property 13 leadership role?14 owners personally? 14 A I don't know if it was with the district15 A If I'm at a property, a neighbor may come out 15 council. It could have been the block club.16 and talk to me about another property. 16 I'm not sure. r was brand new to the17 Q So in-person meetings with neighbors about a 17 department. I don't remember the other people18 property? 18 that were there.19 A Right. 19 Q Do you remember how many people were at that20 Q How else do you receive complaints in person 20 meeting?~ with property owners? 21 A Probably like ten.~L A In person? 22 Q How many individuals that were employed by the23 Q Right. Other than if you're at a property and 23 City of St. Paul were there besides yourself?24 another neighbor comes out and talks to you 24 A I don't remember.25 about another property. 25 Q Was there anyone else that came with you fromEXHIBIT 21


77 79

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

12 A

f~

1234567891011121314151617181920rLL232425

the City of St. Paul to that meeting? 1 joined the city as a code director?Not from my department. 2 A Correct.How about from any other departments? 3 ~ What did he tell you was the reason that youIt's possible. I just was brand neN so I didn't 4 should be at that neighborhood meeting?

~ know who those people were. 5 A I don't remember.6 ~ What do you recall being discussed during that 6 ~ All you remember is that he told you to go to7 meeting? 7 the meeting?8 A They were talking about neighborhood cleanup. 8 A Correct.9 ~ Anything else that you recall about that meeting 9 ~ Did you take any notes from that meeting?10 as far as for discussions, topics, that kind of 10 A No, I did not.11 thing? 11 ~ After that meeting, did you have any further12 A Not that I can remember. 12 meetings with any neighborhood group at any time13 ~ After that meeting, did you go to any further 13 that Mr. Dawkins was a director?14 neighborhood meetings of any type? 14 A I may have. I don't remember.15 A Daytons Bluff, I have been to a couple meetings 15 ~ So you can remember a couple of meetings with16 there. 16 the Daytons Bluff housing group or neighborhood17 ~ What was the first year where you went to a 17 group in 2006 and you can remember two meetings18 Daytons Bluff meeting? 18 with Mr. Simbeck's group, but you don't recall19 A It was probably 2006. 19 any other meetings with neighborhood groups of20 ~ So just this last year? 20 any type?21 A Right. 21 A Nope.22 ~ Yo':! hadn't been to any Daytons Bluff 22 ~ Did you have any contact with any neighborhood23 neighborhood meetings of any type prior to that? 23 groups at the White Bear office after24 A No. 24 Mr. Dawkins becane a director?

~_~_H_o'J_ab_o_ut_a_ft_e_r _t_he_m_e_e_ti_n_g_t_ha_t_yo_u_i_n_dl_'c_at_e_d_-+_2_5__A_I_d_o_n'_t_b_e_ll_'e_ve_so_. _

78 80was with Mr. Simbeck, what was the next meetingyou went to anywhere in the city that was with aneighborhood group of any type?

A I believe I met one more time with Mr. Simbeck'sgroup.

~ What year was that?A It was probably within that same year, 2002 or

2003.~ The second meeting that you had with that group,

what do you recall being discussed?A They were trying to get volunteers to walk

through the neighborhoods.~ Why did they need you to be there?A I have no idea.~ Did you have any role in discussions during that

meeting of any type?A I don't remember.~ You don't recall speaking at all?A No.~ Who invited you to that meeting?A I was directed by the director of our department

to attend the meeting.~ Who was that?A Andy Dawkins.~ So this would have been after Mr. Dawkins hadEXHIBIT 21


83811 time to Mr. Dawkins? 1 furthest north that you would have been2 A I don't know that. 2 responsible for.~ Q The other complaints that you'd receive, how 3 A I don't remember.C ' would they get to you besides directly to either 4 Q How about the furthest south, do you remember

~ your phone or to you in person at a property? 5 that area?6 A Complaints would be generated through somebody 6 A No, I don't.7 calling the Citizens Service Office and a 7 Q And you were working in this area for about two8 complaint being generated. 8 years?9 Q So you'd be assigned a complaint that had been 9 A I don't remember how long.10 made to CSO? 10 Q When you started in the year 2000, you indicated11 A Correct. 11 that that particular area was your first area12 Q How were those assignments made to you at the 12 that you were assigned to. Correct?13 time that Mr. Dawkins took over the directorship 13 A Yes.14 and forward under his directorship? 14 Q How many inspections did you perform in that15 A It depended on the area, whatever area an 15 area prior to Mr. Dawkins joining the city?16 inspector was assigned to. 16 A I don't know.17 Q So when Mr. Dawkins took over the code 17 Q ~Iere you working full-time?18 enforcement office, what was your current 18 A Yes.19 position when he came on board? 19 Q By full-time, how many hours a day were you20 A I was an environmental health inspector assig:1ed 20 working?21 to an area. 21 A Eight hours a day.22 Q What area was that? 22 Q Did you have a car assigned to you?23 A I believe it was off of Rice Street. 23 A I believe at that time we had our own personal24 Q So prior to Mr. Dawkins joining the department 24 vehicles.~__1_'n_2_0_02_,_h_a_d_t_ha_t_be_e_n_y_ou_r_a_r_ea_o_f --1:..2_5__Q_A_n_d_y_o_u_w_e_re_re_i_Irb_u_rS_e_d_f_o_r_m_il_e_ag_e_a_n_d_e_xp_e_n_se_,__

~ M12345678910111213141516171819

~"£2.232425

responsibility since you joined codeenforcement?

A I believe so.Q What were the boundaries of your responsibility

for that area? Can you describe that for megenerally?

A What do you mean by boundaries?Q If you had an area, you obviously had

boundaries. Correct?MS. SEEBA: Geographic boundaries?

Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Geographicboundaries for an area of the city you wereresponsible for.

A I don't remember what those boundaries were.Q How many ho[es were within the area that you

were an area inspector?A I don't know.Q Do you know how many blocks were involved in

that area?A Nope.Q Do you remember anything generally about the

area that you were responsible for as it relatesto boundaries in general?

A Maryland Avenue and Rice Street.Q So that's a cross-section. Describe the

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

were you?A Correct.Q Did you submit written logs to the city

indicating how many miles you had each day?A Yes.Q Describe that particular log entry that you

would have made on a daily basis or a weeklybasis, whenever you could get around to enteringyour logs.

A I entered it on a daily basis. And I entered itfrom the time I left our office to the firstsite that I inspected to the next site all theway through until I returned back to the office.So it showed every site I was at.

Q So this was an ongoing process of updating yourlog on a daily basis, on an hourly basis,depending upon how long it took you at aparticular site. Correct?

A Correct.Q Would you put the address down for, let's say,

the first visit that morning. Correct?A Yes.Q What else would you put on the log?A Just the addresses that I visited and the

mileage it took from each location.EXHIBIT 21


87851 Q Then the date would be on the log as well? 1 Q How long was he your supervisor?2 A Correct. 2 A I don't remember.~ Q So you could have more than one page of a log 3 Q Do you remember the next supervisor that you(' " for a day depending upon how many inspections 4 had?

::> you had. Correct? 5 A Harold Robinson.6 A Yes. 6 Q Do you remember the year that you were assigned7 Q Then would you sign that and submit that to 7 Mr. Robinson as a supervisor?8 someone at the end of the day? How did that 8 A No, I don't.9 process work? 9 Q Have you had any other supervisors?10 A I believe we turned them in on a monthly bas:'s. 10 A Yes.11 It's been a long time. I don't remember. 11 Q Who was that?12 Q What would you call that particular document 12 A Steve Magner.13 f=om the 2000 forward time frame? 13 Q When was Mr. Magner assigned to be your14 A I don't remember. 14 supervisor?15 Q You don't remember what the -- 15 A I believe it was 2002.16 A Vehicle log maybe. 16 Q tihat was Mr. Magner's role at the time you were17 Q 11msorry? 17 assigned to work with him?18 A Vehicle log possibly. 18 A I don't understand your question.19 Q So when you started with code enforcement, you 19 Q t'/hat was his position with the city when you20 had a vehicle log. How long did you use that 20 were assigned to work with him?21 system where you had to fill out a vehicle log 21 A I don't know. I believe he was a supervisor.22 for reimbursement for your private vehicle? 22 Q With code enforcement. Correct?23 A Until I was assigned a city vehicle. 23 A I don't know. You'd have to ask him.24 Q And when was that? 24 Q Was he officed in your same office when you were~_A__I _b_el_i_ev_e_l_'t_w_a_s_2_00_4_m_a_yb_e_. -+-_25 as_s_ig_n_e_d_t_o_h_im_? _

86 881 Q So a couple years after Mr. Dawkins had joined2 the departnent, you then were assigned a vehicle3 by the city?4 A Correct.5 Q Did you use your personal vehicle the entire6 time from when you joined code enforcement in7 the year 2000 all the way up to 2004 or so when8 you were assigned a city vehicle?9 A Yes.10 Q Did you fill out logs on a daily basis as you've11 described during that entire time?12 A Yes.13 Q Where were those logs maintained?14 A I don't know.15 Q You would submit them, you think, on a monthly16 basis?17 A I believe so.18 Q Who do you recall submitting those to?19 A I believe it was the supervisor, but 1'mnot20 sure.~ Q When you finished your training with the area~~ inspectors, were you assigned a supervisor?23 A Yes.24 Q Who was that?25 A I believe at the tiite it was John Betz.

1 A Yes.2 Q He was going to be your supervisor in code3 enforcement?4 A Yes.5 Q Any other supervisors that you've had?6 A Not that I recall.7 Q Let's go back to Mr. Betz as a supervisor. What8 do you recall his role as a supervisor over your9 work? How did he do his supervision of you?10 What do you recall about that?11 A I think it's similar no matter which supervisor12 you have. You turn your work in to the13 supervisor on a daily basis.14 Q Let's go back to when Mr. Betz was your15 supervisor. You would create a daily log, as16 you indicated, for mileage reimbursement17 purposes that would show the properties you went18 to for each day. Would you turn that into your19 supervisor?20 A With the files, yes.21 Q What are you referring to when you say files?22 A Any property that I was at I usually note on the23 fHe inspection notes.24 Q So there's a paper hard copy file for each of25 the properties that the city has codeEXHIBIT 21


89 911 enforcement history for. Correct? 1 Q Describe those for me in the year 2000.2 A I believe so. 2 A Oh, in 2000. I just had regular fliers with3 Q So when you went out on a property, I should say 3 information on recycling where people can get~ out in your role as an inspector during the day, 4 recycling, different fliers that they had in

~ you would have your log that you referred to. 5 their office.6 Correct? 6 Q Any fliers with regard to financial resources7 A Yes. 7 available for property owners that were having8 Q That would be with you in your vehicle. 8 difficulty affording repairs?9 Correct? 9 A I believe it was Minnesota Housing or Funding10 A Yes. 10 that I did have as well.11 Q What other documents would you have when you 11 Q This was during the first year you were code12 left the office to start your inspection 12 inspector?13 starting in the year 2000? 13 A Correct.14 A Whatever complaints that had come in, I would 14 Q Any other documents you would have had with you15 have that information with me as well. 15 besides these fliers?16 Q You'd have the paper copy of those complaints? 16 A Summary abatement forms, correction notices.17 A Correct. 17 Q Standard forms you could write onto while you18 Q What form were the complaints in in paper copy 18 were in the field?19 for you? 19 A Correct.20 A What do you mean? 20 Q Any other documentation you would have with you?21 Q Were they handwritten notes? Were they e-mails? 21 A Not that I can recall.22 Were they printed up? Describe that for me. 22 Q Did you have any type of field manual with you23 A They were usually on a form that showed the 23 when you were in the field?24 complaint, the address, the date it came in. 24 A No.

~_Q_W_h_a_t _t_he_co_:n_pl_a_in_t_w_a_s?_. t--2_5_Q__Wh_e_n_y_o_u_i_nv_e_st_i_9a_t_e_d_c_om_p_la_i_nt_s_,_w_ha_t_wa_s_y_o_ur__

90 921234567891011121314151617181920r'

d.232425

A Right.Q How would you organize those within your

vehicle? Did you have a clipboard?A I did.Q Did you have blank inspector notes that you

could use in writing comments and observations?A Yes.Q When you made an observation in response to a

complaint, did you then write at the propertynotes about what you observed?

A Sometimes, yes.Q What would you do other times?A I may make the notes at a different location.Q So you may leave a property having observed --

made some observations and go to the nextproperty and then write the notes about theprevious property?

A Possibly, or go back to the office to make thenotations.

Q What other documents did you have with you whenyou left the office during your dailyinspections, besides the vehicle log and anycomplaint documentation you had with you on yourclipboard?

A I had brochures listing resource information.

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

standard practice in 2000? How would you dothat? You'd take the complaint report. Iassume you'd go in the field. Correct?

A Correct.Q Then what would you do?A Go to the address and see if what's listed on

the complaint was valid or not.Q So you'd make a physical inspection of the

property by getting out of the vehicle thatyou'd arrived at. Correct?

A Yes.Q Then you'd do a walk-around on the exterior of

the property?A Yes.Q What other process did you go through in

investigating the complaints back in 2000besides that?

A It depends on what the complaint was.Q Did you try to contact the owner about the

complaint back in the year 2000?A Which complaint?Q Let's say any type of complaint on a property.

Someone owned the property I would assume.Correct?

A I would assume.EXHIBIT 21


12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

A I may have.~ Did you try to talk to the occupants of the

property about the complaints?A I may have.~ ~Ias there any discussion by Mr. Betz as a

supervisor of you initially that it was hisrecommendation that you attempt to contactowners of properties about complaints in orderto handle the complaint as an inspector?

A He may have. I don't recall that.~ You don't remember that being stressed by

Mr. Betz?A No, I don't.G) Did any of your other supervisors, Mr. Robinson

or Mr. Magner, ever stress that you shouldattempt to contact the owners about complaintsin order to resolve them?

A They may have. I don't recall that.~ Did you personally, in the year 2000 as an

environmental health inspector, make it apractice to try to contact the owners to resolvethe issue on the property?

A Yes.~ How would you do that?A Knock on the door to see if I could reach

d.232425

12345678910111213141516171819

.~(",.•••.....,

93 95G) Did you make an attempt to contact the owner on 1 somebody that was there at the property to find

complaints that you received back in the year 2 out if it was a rental property or not, talk to2000? 3 the person that's there. Like I said, usually

A I believe so, yes. 4 on the complaint, it would show who the owner~ G) How would you get the ownership information to 5 was. We would mail notification to the owner as6 be able to contact an owner? 6 well as to the occupant.7 A It was usually printed on the complaint form. 7 G) So during the year 2000, was there a focus in8 G) Was there a phone number typically there as 8 your department on providing written notice to9 well? 9 the owner of the property about any particular10 A No. 10 code violation that you observed as an11 G) Back in the year 2000, did you make any attempt 11 inspector?12 to locate the phone numbers for property owners 12 A I don't remember what the focus was in 2000.13 before you went out and investigated the 13 G) Do you remember contacting owners on a frequent14 complaint? 14 basis about complaints on their properties15 A I don't recall. 15 during 2000?16 G) Do you recall if sometimes on the complaint 16 A I don't remember.17 there was the phone number for property owners? 17 G) Do you remember that when Mr. Dawkins took over,18 A I don't renember. 18 that there was an emphasis placed on providing19 G) Did you look at any source of ownership 19 written documentation on code observations?20 information in the office in order to determine 20 A No, I don't recall that.21 who was the owner prior to investigating a 21 G) On code violations that inspectors were22 complaint during the 2000 time frame? 22 observing during Mr. Dawkins' directorship, was23 A I don't remember. 23 there an emphasis on writing up the properties24 G) \ihen you went out to a property, did you knock 24 to give notice to the owner?

(A__o_n_t_he_do_o_r_o_f_t_h_e_p_ro_p_er_t_y?_, -+_2_5__A_No_t_th_a_t_I_r_e_ca_l_l_. _

94 96G) You don't recall any discussion with Mr. Dawkins

that he wanted you to document the codeviolations that you were observing during thetime he was a director?

A No.~ Do you recall Mr. Dawkins using the phrase call

everything?A Yes.~ When was the first time you heard Mr. Dawkins

use that phrase?A I don't remember.~ Was it shortly after he took over directorship

of the code enforcement for the city?A I'm not sure.~ Let me ask you a question about when Mr. Dawkins

first took over as a director. What do yourecall about that? Did he have a meeting withall the inspectors?

A He had a lot of meetings. I'm not sure.~ You don I t remember when he came in as a

director?A No.~ You don't remember the first day that he was a

director of your particular code enforcementoffice?

12

r

EXHIBIT 21


99

't.L232425

12345678910111213141516171819

~

971 A No, I don't. 1 A That I was the problem property inspector.2 ~ Do you remember when he was an aid to the Mayor 2 ~ Were you the sole problem property inspector~ prior to the office being changed in name to 3 under Mr. Dawkins' leadership of code(" Neighborhood Housing Property Improvement? 4 enforcement?~ A No. 5 A Steve Magner was also considered the other6 ~ Do you recall what your role was with the city 6 inspector.7 code inspection department in the summer of 7 ~ So you had two problem property inspectors8 2002, a little over two years after you started 8 within Mr. Dawkins' problem property unit?9 with code enforcement? 9 A Correct.10 A I believe at that time I was considered by Andy 10 ~ Was the group of people that were working with11 Dawkins as a problem property inspector. 11 Mr. Dawkins and problem properties, were they12 Q When did you first have a meeting with 12 called problem property unit members? Is that13 Mr. Dawkins about problem properties? 13 what it was?14 A I don't recall. I believe it was around the 14 A I believe so.15 same time that Mark Wiegel, Officer Wiegel, was 15 ~ So you recall it being called the problem16 assigned to our department. 16 property unit of the city code enforcement?17 ~ Prior to your discussion with Mr. Dawkins about 17 A Yes.18 problem properties, what had been your area of 18 ~ ~Iho were the members of that besides Mr. Magner,19 inspection duties? 19 yourself, and Officer Wiegel?20 A I believe I covered that. I was an area 20 A Officer Koehnen and whoever the city attorney21 inspector off of Rice Street. 21 was at that time.22 Q So that was your area of responsibility at the 22 ~ From the start of the problem property unit, all23 time that 11r. Dawkins started to talk to yOl:. 23 of those individuals were a member of the24 about problem property unit. Correct? 24 problem property unit?~_A_Y_es_' -r_25__A_Y_e_s_. _

~ 100Q When did you have a discussion with Mr. Dawkins 1 ~ Do you remember the first meeting that you had

about what he wanted you to do? 2 with the problem property employees?A I don't recall when it was. 3 A No.~ Do you know where the meeting was? 4 ~ How many meetings did you have with the problemA I believe at 1600 White Bear Avenue. 5 property employees during the summer of 2002?~ Do you know who else was at the meeting with 6 A I don't recall how many.

Mr. Dawkins and you? 7 ~ Do you remember if they were daily meetings?A I don't remember. 8 A All of us together? Is that what your questionQ Do you remember anything about what Mr. Dawkins 9 is?

explained to you was his view of what you should 10 ~ Well, let's say a group of you together talkingbe doing in the problem property unit? 11 about problem properties. How often did that

A No. 12 happen during the summer of 2002?Q You just remember that Officer Wiegel had been 13 A I don't remember.

transferred over to code enforcement around that 14 ~ How did your job duties on a daily basis changetime? 15 from your area of responsibility to when you

A Correct. 16 became a member of the problem property unit?Q Did you have any discussions with anyone else 17 A I no longer had an area. I responded throughout

about Mr. Dawkins wanting to form the problem 18 the city.property unit? 19 ~ Did you also have full-time job duties similar

A No. 20 to when you were an area inspector so you'd workQ Did your official position title change when you 21 full-time for the city?

started working for the problem property unit? 22 A Yes, I was full-time.A I don't know if it officially changed. 23 ~ Did you have a car assigned to you at that timeQ t'lhat did you believe your title was then as it 24 or not?

related to Mr. Dawkins' problem property work? 25 A Yes, I did.EXHIBIT 21


103Q Did you have any friendly acquaintances on the

department during that time frame?A What do you consider friendly acquaintances?Q Afriend instead of someone --A No.Q So do you know the difference between a friend

and someone that you're just friendly with?MS. SEEBA: Objection, form. If

you have an idea, please answer it.A Could you --Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) You said you

didn't have any friends. Did you have anybodythat you had frequent contact with at the policedepartment during 2000 to 2002?

A No.

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

101

A No, I had not.Q While you were an inspector, from the year 2000

to the time you were transferred to the problemproperty unit, had you had any contact with anySt. Paul Police Department officers or employeesat any time?

A Yes.Q Generally tell me about the kind of contact that

you had had during that time frame.A From what time frame?Q Well, from when you joined code enforcement

until you became a member of the problemproperty unit.

A I may run into officers at locations or see themat lunch.

Q When you ran into them at locations, why wasthat?

A If I was doing an inspection and they were inthe area responding to a call, I would stop andsay hi.At the time that we're talking about from 2000until 2002 when you joined the problem propertyunit, did you have a~y friends on the St. PaulPolice Department?

A No.

L.L232425

1 Q When you joined the problem property unit, was 12 that the first time you had a car assigned to 2~ A you by the city? 43

Co'" It's poss ible.:> Q Is it also possible that you may have had a 56 period of time where you were working as a 67 problem property member where you still had your 78 o~n car and you were using that car for your 89 transportation? 910 A It's possible. I don't remember when we 1011 received our vehicle. 1112 Q What is your understanding as to why Officer 1213 \'1iegel was transferred from the police 1314 department to the problem property unit? 1415 A My understanding was that he was running police 1516 calls and just keeping track of what the problem 16 MR. SHOEMAKER: Louise, let's take17 property unit was doing. 17 about ten. My goal here is to go to about 1:00.18 Q What was your understanding as to his background 18 (Brief recess, 11: 30-11: 45) .19 at the time that he joined the problem property 19 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) When you were20 unit? 20 working prior to the problem property unit, 200021 A I didn't know his background. 21 to 2002, how many inspections do you think you22 Q Had you ever met him before? 22 performed on exteriors of properties in that23 A No, I had not. 23 two-year period?24 Q Had you ever met Officer Koehnen prior to his 24 A As I stated earlier, I don't know.~__j_o_in_i_ng_th_e_p_r_ob_l_em_pr_o_pe_r_tY_Un_i_t_? --._2_5__Q_H_ow_ma_n_y_i_ns_p_e_ct_i_on_s_w_o_ul_d_y_o_u_t_y_pi_c_al_l_y_d_ur_i_ng__

102 104that period perform on exteriors of a propertyon a daily basis?

A I don't know the exact number. It could rangefrom 5 to 15.

Q So during the period of 2000 to 2002, the dailynumber of inspections of exterior properties asa code inspector in your work for the city wouldrange from 5 to 15 inspections?

A It could. It depends on the complaints.Q You were working five days a week, were you, in

your role as a cede inspector during that time?A Correct.Q How many miles did you typically have on your

log on a monthly basis, do you remember that?A I don't remember.Q How many miles would you typically drive in the

city on a daily basis from 2000 to 2002?A I don't know the exact number, but it could be

ten.Q Ten miles?A Sure, ten or more.Q Where was your office located during the 2000 to

2002 time frame before the office was moved upto White Bear Avenue?

A 722 Payne Avenue.

1234567891011121314151617181920rQ

EXHIBIT 21


107

to the officer when I was taking the calls.~ When you became a code inspector and you were

working in your assigned area, how many otherinspectors ever worked with you in thatparticular area that you can recall?

A What do you mean by worked with me?~ In any role. Other than your supervisor,

Mr. Betz, were there any other inspectors thatworked in your area at any time during the twoyear period?

A Not that I'm aware of.Q So you were assigned that area as your exclusive

area to enforce the city codes in?A Correct.Q Did you have any problem properties -- by using

that term, any property that was a problem toyou in that area -- during those two years priorto Mr. Dawkins corning on board?

MS. SEEBA: Objection, form.You're talking about -- you're completely off ofproblem properties as it's defined? You'reasking her opinion on properties that were aproblem to her. Is that right?

~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Right, that's myquestion. During the time you were a code

LL

232425

105~ Where is that located generally in the city? 1 over the City of St. Paul?A Like Payne and Minnehaha. 2 A Yes.~ What area of the city is that called? 3 ~ And then you'd dispatch officers to handle thoseA I don't know. 4 calls across the city?

::> ~ Is it central location? 5 A Correct.6 A I don't know what you'd call it. 6 ~ Did you have any training as to the geographical7 ~ Was the office there the entire time that you 7 areas of the city in order to take the position8 were an environmental health inspector prior to 8 as a dispatcher?9 becoming a problem property unit inspector? 9 A No.10 A Yes. 10 ~ Was it your role as a dispatcher to get the11 ~ And you'd start you day at that office, would 11 address from the particular caller?12 you? 12 A Yes, or a cross street.13 A Correct. 13 ~ What sources of information did you have as a14 ~ And then you'd drive out into your area of 14 dispatcher to make sure that that address was,15 inspections. Is that right? 15 in fact, the right address so you could properly16 A Cerrect. 16 dispatch an officer to the call?17 ~ Did you also do sweeps during that two-year 17 A I entered whatever the caller gave me.18 period prior to Mr. Dawkins being a director of 18 ~ Did you have a map that you were using as well19 code enforcement? 19 to cross-reference during your call with the 91120 A I don't remember when the sweeps were. But, 20 caller?21 yes, I have participated in sweeps. 21 A No. It automatically comes up when it's 911.22 ~ So your answer is, yes, you participated in 22 Q What the address is?23 sweeps during the period of 2000 through when 23 A Correct.24 Mr. Dawkins first became a director? 24 Q Then you'd relay that address to the officer?~ _A_M_y_r_e_sp_o_n_se_wa_s_I_do_n_'_t_r_em_e_mb_e_r_w_h_e_n_t_he_d_at_e_s_-t-2_5__A_I_w_ou_l_d_r_e_la_y_it_to_wh_0_e_ve_r_w_a_s_d_i_sp_a_tc_h_i_ng_it__

106 108were of those sweeps, but I have participated in 1sweeps. 2

Q Do you recall being a participant as a code 3inspector, environmental health inspector, in 4the City of St. Paul at any time prior to 5Mr. Dawkins becoming a director or head of code 6enforcement? 7

A I don't rerr.ember. 8Q It's possible you may have been involved in a 9

sweep. You just don't recall? 10A That is correct. 11~ But you do recall being involved in sweeps after 12

Mr. Dawkins took over control of code 13enforcement in 2002? 14

A Yes. 15Q How many times did you go on sweeps after he 16

took over direction of the code enforcement? 17A I don't know. 18~ I want to go back to your role as a dispatcher 19

for the police department. How long of a period 20was it that you worked as a dispatcher? 21

A I believe one year. 22~ And that was a full-time position? 23A Correct. 24Q Did you handle calls on the 911 system from all 25

1234567891011121314151617181920~

12

f

EXHIBIT 21


111

the problem property unit?A Again, I don't recall the specifics. But it was

normally a property that had many codeviolations and/or police issues.

Q So it could just have police issues and not havecode violations and it could still be a problemproperty?

MS. SEEBA: Objection, foundation.A I don't know.G) (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) That's what you

just said, and/or. You said it could --MS. SEEBA: The record will reflect

what she said. If you have a question, ask it.G) (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) My question to you

is: You said that a problem property could havecode issues and/or police issues?

MS. SEEBA: She said that was herunderstar:ding.

G) (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Who gave you thatinformation where you reached that understandingof what constituted a problem property?

A As I stated, Andy put together the unit and theinformation was posted on the web site. So I'mnot sure the exact definition of what a problemproperty is.

(.1.

232425

109inspector for the area you defined, prior to 1 2002, did you have any discussions with anyoneMr. Dawkins coming on board, were there any 2 concerning properties in the city that wereproblems that you had that were out of the 3 being managed by Mr. Yannarelly, Mr. Hawkins, orordinary where you get a complaint and you go 4 Mr. Essling?

~ out and you deal with the complaint where you 5 A Not that I recall.6 considered a property to be a problem to you? 6 ~ When you joined the problem property unit, was7 A Not that I can recall. 7 it your understanding that your role was to deal8 G) As you sit here today for that two-year period 8 only with problem properties?9 that you inspected properties in that assigned 9 A Yes.10 area on a daily basis, you don't remember any 10 G) How was the tem problem properties defined to11 problems in those areas that stood out from your 11 you when you first started with the problem12 nermal inspection duties on complaints? 12 property unit?13 A It was a long time ago. I do hundreds of 13 A I don't remember, but I believe the definition14 inspections. So, no, I don 't. 14 was posted on the web page.15 G) Is it fair to say that in any week during tte 15 G) So you don't remember yourself being told what16 year 2000 that you may have conducted up to 100 16 the definition would be for you to use in17 inspections during that week? 17 dealing in your role as a code inspector in the18 A I don I t know what the amount would be. 18 problem property unit when Mr. Dawkins first19 G) Did you ever have to fill out any type of report 19 started?20 during the year 2000 as to the number of 20 A It may have been. No, I don't recall.21 inspections you had conducted on properties in 21 G) It may have been defined to you. You just don't22 your assigned area? 22 recall it?23 A Not that I recall. 23 A Correct.24 G) That would include interior and exterior 24 G) At some point, did you reach an understanding as~__i_n_sp_e_ct_i_on_s_?_Yo_u_d_i_dn_'_t_h_a~_'e_t_o_fi_I_I_o_ut_an_y__+-2_5 t_o_w_ha_t_c_o_ns_t_i_tu_t_ed_a_p_ro_b_le_m_p_r_op_e_r_ty_wi_t_hi_n__

110 112report as to the numbers? 1

A Not that I recall. 2G) Did you ever work with any of the inspectors 3

that were assigned under the problem property 42000 initiative? 5

A I don't know what you're referring to. 6G) How about Mr. Hawkins, did you ever work with 7

him? 8A Who? 9G) Jeff Hawkins. 10A At code enforcement? 11G) Right. 12A I don't believe he was there when I was there. 13G) How about with Mr. Joel Essling, did you ever 14

work with him? 15A Joel still works in our office. 16Q Did you work with him during the 2000 to 2002 17

time frame? 18A He was in our office. But, no, I did not work 19

with him. 20Q How about with Mr. Yannarelly, did you ever work 21

with him during the 2000 to 2002 time frame? 22A Not that I recall. He was in our off ice at that 23

time. 24G) \~hen you were a code inspector between 2000 and 25

12345678910111213141516171819

~

12

f

EXHIBIT 21


115

A As I stated, I don I t recall.Q You don't recall if you ever had to go to a

supervisor on any of the properties in yourassigned area because there was an issue thatyou felt was above your experience level?

A No.Q Do you believe that you were able to handle all

of the complaints that were made on your area ofresponsibility for that two-year period of 2000to 2002 without having to involve anysupervisors?

A Again, I don't recall.Q Did you ever have to go to the director of code

enforcement on any of your properties during theperiod of 2000 to 2002?

A I don't recall.Q That would stand out in your mind if you had to

have gone to the supervisor. Correct?MS. SEEBA: Objection, form.

A Clarify your question.Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) My question is:

If you had to go to the head of code enforcementduring the 2000 to 2002 time frame, you wouldrecall that, wouldn't you?

A Not necessarily.

LL232425

12

f'

12345678910111213141516171819

~

113Q Well, was it your understanding that the 1 A Correct.

definition of a problem property, during the 2 Q So is it your recollection that the complaintstime you were a member of the problem property 3 that were brought to your attention in yourunit from 2002 forward, varied from neighborhood 4 assigned area, during the 2000 to 2002 time

o to neighborhood? 5 frame, Here all resolved by the owners upon your6 A What do you mean varied? 6 investigation of the complaint?7 Q Did you ever receive any information from 7 A Can you repeat the question?8 neighbors complaining that a property was a 8 Q In the period 2000 to 2002, is it your9 problem for those neighbors? 9 recollection that when you dealt with10 A Not that I recall. 10 complaints, that the owners resolved the11 Q So you don't ever remember receiving any 11 complaints to your satisfaction?12 complaint from any neighbor, while you were a 12 A I don't know. I'd have to look at the specific13 member of the problem property unit, that a 13 file. I don't know how the complaints were14 particular neighbor considered a property to be 14 resolved.15 a problem? 15 Q But did you ever have to go to your supervisor16 A Not that I recall. 16 at any time on a particular property that you17 Q Going back to the 2000 to 2002 time frame, you 17 could not resolve as it related to a complaint?18 said you did not recall any property in your 18 A Again, I may have, if you have a particular file19 assigned area having been a problem for you. 19 you'd like me to look at. I can't recall back20 Was there any property that stood Ol:t in your 20 from 2000.21 mind as a code inspector during that time frame 21 Q There I s a two-year period you were working in22 before you became a problem property unit 22 your assigned area. Did you have any23 inspector? 23 difficulties as a code inspector at any time24 A Not that I can recall. 24 during that two-year period with any of the~ _Q_D_i_d_y_ou_ha_v_e_a_ny_pr_o_pe_r_tl_'e_s_d_u_ri_n_g_t_ha_t_t_w_o-_y_ea_r_+-2_5 p_ro_p_er_t_ie_s_t_h_a_t_y_ou_we_r_e_w_o_rk_i_ng_on_? _

114 116period where you had to go back to the property 1more than once on a complaint? 2

A I nay have. I don't recall. 3Q Would it be important for you if you had to go 4

back to a property more than once on the same 5complaint during the 2000 to 2002 time frame? 6

A What do you mean would it be important? 7Q Well, if you had a complaint that came in a 8

second time about a property, would that be of 9importance :0 you during the 2000 to 2002 time 10frame? 11

MS. SEEBA: Objection, form. 12A I don't understand what your question is. 13Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Well, you were 14

supposed to deal wi th complaints and then 15investigate complaints. Correct? 16

A Yes. 17Q And that was the case during 2000 to 2002. 18

Correct? 19A Yes. 20Q So did you ever have a complaint about a 21

property that came in subsequent to the original 22complaint that you had to deal with? 23

A I may have. 24Q You just don't recaE it, as you sit here? 25EXHIBIT 21


12

f

117 119~ You don't ever recall any discussio~s that you 1 A If you have a specific address -- I don't know.

had on a property in your assigned area with 2 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) You don't have anyMr. Moorhead? 3 idea currently, in your role as an inspector, as

A Not that I can recall, no. 4 to how often you have contact with the pUblic as~ ~ Do you remember having any discussion with any 5 you drive around as an inspector?6 properties in your assigned area with 6 MS. SEEBA: Form.7 Mr. Lippert during the 2000 to 2002 time frame? 7 A Can you clarify your question?8 A Not that I can recall, no. 8 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Well, let's say in9 ~ How often would you have contact with the 9 the las: six months. Have you worked as an10 occupants of the properties in your assigned 10 inspector in the city?11 area in your daily activities between 2000 and 11 A Yes.12 2002? 12 ~ Do you use a vehicle to go out and drive to13 A As I stated, it varies depending on what 13 properties?14 property. I have no idea unless I look at the 14 A Yes.15 file. 15 ~ How often as an inspector do you have contact16 ~ What do you remember when you were doing your 16 with the public in your role as an inspector in17 daily activities as a code inspector? Do you 17 your daily duties?18 remember that when you went out in the field you 18 A I have contact on a daily basis -- when I fill19 hardly ever saw anybody at the properties when 19 up with gas, I talk to people at the gas20 you arrived? 20 station, at lunch. Oftentimes, I speak with21 A I don't re:nember. 21 owners or occupants. I don't have an exact22 ~ Do you remember that you saw people around 22 number how many people I talk to.23 frequently when you arrived with your personal 23 ~ I'm not talking about people you talk to at a24 vehicle to do your inspections? 24 gas station, I'm talking about people you talk~ MS_,_S_E_EB_A_:_O_bJ_'e_c_ti_o_n,_f_or_m_. -t-2_5 to_in_y_ou_r_ro_l_e_a_s_a_n_l_'n_sp_e_c_to_r_o_n_th_e_ir _

118 1201 properties. In the last six months, how2 frequent has that contact been with the public?3 MS. SEEBA: Asked and answered.4 A I would be speculating. I don't know.5 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) You don't have any6 idea as to how often --7 MS. SEEBA: John, if you have a8 file and you want to ask her about how often9 she's talked to someone --10 MR. SHOEMAKER: I don't need to use11 a file, Ms. Seeba. I'm asking her --12 MS. SEEBA: She's answered you. So13 let's move on. She doesn't remember.14 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) That's the last15 six months. How about during the time16 that Mr, Dawkins was a director, Ms. Martin,17 How often did you have contact with the public18 in your role as an inspector on a daily basis?19 A Again, I could have had contact on a daily basis20 with one person, ten people. I don't know.21 ~ So would it be safe to say that every day that22 you were an inspector you would have contact23 with the public?24 A No.25 ~ Some days you wouldn't have contact with the

A I don't remember.~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) You don't have any

recollection as to how often on a daily bas:syou would have any contact with any occupant ofany property in your daily activities as anenvironmental inspector?

A I would be speculating, Unless you have a copyof a file for me to look at, I don't know howmany times I talked with any of the owners oroccupants.

~ Currently in your role, how often do you talkwith owners of properties in your role as aninspector?

A It depends on which file I'm working on,~ How about on a daily basis, how many inspections

do you do on a daily basis currently?It varies day-to-day.Is it still anywhere from 5 to I5?Possibly.So it might be more than that?Possibly.Can you state whether or not you have frequentcontact or infrequent contact with occupants ofproperties that you're inspecting currently?

MS. SEEBA: Form.

L.L232425

1234567891011121314151617 A18 ~

19 A

~~~

EXHIBIT 21


121 1231 public as an inspector? 1 have inspected, let's say, a PHA scattered site2 A Correct. 2 home or duplex?3 Q So you'd go out to 3 property, make your 3 A Would it stand out?r observations, write up your notes, and at the 4 Q Right.~ end of the day you may not have met any of the 5 A No.6 occupants or owners of the property? 6 Q Do you remember being inside a single family7 A That is correct. 7 home that was owned by PHA?8 Q Other days you may have met occupants and/or 8 A I don't recall.9 owners of the property during your inspection 9 Q You don't have any recollection of that?10 role. Correct? 10 A No.11 A Correct. 11 Q Do you know how many homes the PHA owns in the12 Q Let's go back to Exhibit 1. Under General 12 City of st. Paul?13 Duties, it describes not only investlgating 13 A No, I do not.14 complaints but conducting inspections of public 14 Q Do you know if they own more than 100 homes?15 and private facilities. As an environmental 15 A I don't know.16 health inspector, describe for me the 16 Q Do you know if they own 450 homes?17 inspections that you've conducted on public 17 A I don't know.18 facilities since you've been an inspector. 18 Q Have you ever had any discussions with any of19 A I don't know. 19 your fellow inspectors, since you joined the20 Q Do you recall any s:tuation where you inspected 20 city in the year 2000, as to the amount of homes21 any publicly-owned facility in the City of 21 that the PHA owned in the City of St. Paul?22 St. Paul since you've been an employee for the 22 A No.23 city? 23 Q Do you know if the Public Housing Agency owned24 A Not that I know of. 24 any homes in your area of responsibility as an~_Q__If_y_o_u_w_e_nt_ou_t_o_n_a_n_l_'n_sp_e_ct_i_o_n,_yo_u_l_'n_d_ic_a_te_d 1-25 ar_e_a_i_ns_p_e_ct_o_r_b_et_w_ee_n_20_0_0_a_nd_20_0_2?_. _

122 1241 A I don't know.2 Q You don't remember ever making any type of an3 investigation on a complaint on a PHA-owned home4 between 2000 and 2002?5 A I may have. I don't recall.6 Q How about when you became a problem property7 unit inspector, do you ever remember after that8 time inspecting any PHA scattered site homes,9 single family duplexes, that kind of thing?10 A Again, I may have. I don't recall.11 Q Do you ever remerrber being inside a PHA home at12 any time since the year 2000?13 A Not that I can recall.14 Q Do you remember any of your fellow inspectors15 ever talking about the interiors of PHA16 scattered site homes?17 A No.18 Q That would be the same answer for the pericd of19 2000 to 2005?20 A Which question?21 Q The quest ion is: Do you recall any of your22 fellow inspectors ever talking about the23 interiors of PHA homes during the period of 200024 to 2005?25 A No.

you would have the ownership information withyou prior to arriving at the address. Correc:?

A In most cases, yes.Q What percentage of the time do you not have the

ownership information with you when you arriveat a property on a complaint?

A Not very often.Q So most of the time you're going to have the

ownership information when you're actuallyconducting the inspection to handle a complaint.Co~rect?

A Yes.Q So you don't recall any inspection that you

performed as an environmental health inspectoror any type of code inspector role on anypublicly-ow~ed facility of any type?

A What do you consider publicly-owned?Q Let's break it down. How about any city owned

properties. Have you ever inspected any cityowned properties?Not that I can recall.Have you ever inspected any public housingproperties that you can remerrber at any time?

A I may have, but I don't recall.Q Would that stand out in your mind if you would

d.232425

1234567891011121314151617181920r A

Q

EXHIBIT 21


127

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

Circuit Court case that went against the citywith regard to a property owned by HUD?

A No.~ Mr. Dawkins never mentioned that to you?A No.~ With regard to your supervisors, you mentioned

Mr. Betz was your first supervisor and that hewas available for you to discuss issues.Describe what his involvement was from astandpoint of your daily activities.

A As I stated earlier, I would complete mypaperwork and turn it in to Mr. Betz.

~ The paperwork you completed would be your notesfrom each of the properties you handled duringthe day?

A Correct.~ So was it your understanding that Mr. Betz as a

supervisor had to review your work?Yes.And if you were making an observation in thefield as to code violations, was your supervisorto review that determination?

A I don't know what his role was.~ Did you have meetings with your supervisor I

Mr. Betz, curing the time that he was your

L.L232425

125~ Do you ever remember Mr. DaNkins talking about 1 supervisor?

the condition of interiors of PHA homes during 2 A I may have. I don't recall anythingthe period of 2000 to 2005? 3 specifically.

A No. 4 ~ Did Mr. Betz have an office where you had an~ ~ Anyone else in your office ever talk about the 5 office during that time period?6 condition of the interiors of PHA homes at any 6 A Yes.7 time since you started working with the city? 7 ~ Where was his office located within the8 A Nc. 8 structure of your office?9 ~ Ever heard any officials from the City of 9 A What date?10 St. Paul e'ler talk about the condit:on of PHA 10 ~ During 2000 to, let's say, the summer of 2002?11 hemes? 11 A We were located at 722 Payne Avenue. We all had12 A Nc. 12 cubicles.13 ~ Hew about :he exterior of P3A homes, have you 13 ~ So the supervisor would have a cubicle as well?14 ever had any discussion with any of your fellow 14 A Correct.15 inspectors about the condition of the exterior 15 ~ Where was his cubicle in relation to yours?16 of PHA homes at any time since you joined code 16 A Across from me.17 enforcement? 17 ~ So he was fully accessible to you?18 A I may have. I don't recall. 18 A Yes.19 ~ Nothing stands out in your mind? 19 ~ What other type of documentation did you provide20 A No. 20 to Mr. Betz as a unit supervisor, besides the21 ~ Do you remember conducting any inspection of any 21 notes that you would have wrote up during your22 HUD homes in the City of St. Paul since the year 22 daily activities as an inspector?23 of 2002? 23 A There could have been summary abatements,24 A I may have. I don't recall. 24 correction notices, photographs.~_~_D_O_y_o_u _e_ve_r_r_e_c_al_l_a_d_is_c_us_s_io_n_ab_o_ut_t_he_8t_h__-+-2_5__~_D_e_sc_r_i_be_th_e_ph_o_to_g_r_ap_h_s_t_h_at_yo_u_w_o_u_ld_ha_v_e _

126 128taken as an area inspector during 2000 to 2002.Why would you need to ta~e photographs?

A If it was a complaint that was continuous or ifthe property was in really poor shape.

~ So if you had a continuous exterior violation,for exa[ple, you would take photographs at somepoint to document that?

A Not all the time. But oftentimes, yes.~ Was that for enforcement purposes that you would

take the photographs?A Explain your question.~ Why would you take photographs? What was the

purpose?A For the file.~ Who would look at the photographs in the file?A I don't know.~ Did your supervisor want you to take photographs

under certain circumstances?A I don't recall.~ Did you use the photographs that you would take

on properties in your area between 2000 and 2002for purposes of court actions against propertyowners?

A Possibly, yes.~ What other purposes would you take the

12345678910111213141516171819 A

~~

12

f

EXHIBIT 21


129 131

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

A Correct.~ And then you'd make your observations about that

particular property. Correct?A Yes.~ Would you nake observations about other

properties in the neighborhood durir.g thosetimes that you were respond:ng to a particularcomplaint on a property?

A Yes.~ How did you make the observations on other

properties? Did you get out and walk?A Oftentimes, yes.~ So you'd get out of your vehicle at the

particular complaint property. Correct?A Correct.~ And then you'd either do an external inspection

or try to contact the occupant. Correct?A Correct.~ And then would you frequently walk up and dONn

the street looking at other properties?A Yes.~ Would you also frequently walk through alleys

during that time period?A Yes.~ Once you got to the end of the alley, what would

't.~

232425

12 A

~~\

photographs? 1 you do, come back to your car?I can't recall any other situations. 2 A Yes.How about with legislative hearings, would you 3 ~ And then you'd either write notes or you'd go toneed photographs for appeals by property owners 4 the next complaint address. Right?

~ on code issues? 5 A I would usually call them into the 266-89896 A It's possible. 6 number.7 ~ When you were working between the year 2000 and 7 ~ That was a number at the code headquarters?8 2002, you were using a vehicle. Would you make 8 A Correct.9 observations on properties as you drove around 9 ~ What would you call in?10 your area as to the exterior conditions of 10 A Whatever I noted.11 properties? 11 ~ Oh, about the other properties?12 A Clarify that. 12 A Correct.13 ~ \~hen you were in your vehicle driving through 13 ~ So you'd call in observations. Who at the14 neighborhoods, were you looking for external 14 office would take that information?15 code violations while you were driving your 15 A I don't know.16 vehicle through the neighborhoods? 16 ~ Was there one person or more than one person17 A Yes. 17 that was in charge of receiving those calls from18 ~ Would you drive down the main street and then 18 you?19 drive through the alleys? Describe how you'd 19 A I don't know.20 deal with that on a daily basis. 20 ~ Was there a voice mail that you left or was it21 A It depends. If I'm responding to a complair.t, I 21 someone live?22 would check out the other properties surrounding 22 A It was someone live.23 this property. 23 ~ This was during the period of 2000 to 2002?24 ~ You'd first, on a complaint response, you'd 24 A Correct.~__d_r_iv_e_t_o_th_e_s_p_ec_i_f_ic_ad_d_re_s_s_._co_r_r_ec_t_? -if-2_5__~_H_0_w_o_f_te_n_wo_U_ld_y_ou_,_w_h_e_n_y_ou_w_er_e_o_u_t_a_t_a _

130 132particular property conducting an inspection ofa complaint, would you get out and do thatprocess of walking up and down the streetlooking at properties and going through thealleys?

A I don't know.~ Was it all the time? Describe how frequently

you conducted that.A I don't know. I don't have an exact number.~ Was it Mr. Dawkins that emphasized that when you

went on a complaint, you should be, in fact,checking other properties in the area for codeviolations?

A Yes.~ Do you think prior to Mr. Dawkins coming on

board that someone that was a superior to youhad emphasized that as well?

A I don't recall.~ Was that something you learned in your training

that you should be looking at other propertiesbeside the complaint property?

A I don't recall.~ Have you ever worked in a role of referring

homes in the City of St. Paul to the vacantbuilding section of code enforcement?

12345678910111213141516171819

f

EXHIBIT 21


13512

~2

232425

133A Yes. 1 A Can you repeat the question?~ When did you first start doing that? 2 ~ You haven't monitored any vacant buildings.A I don't remember. 3 You've merely referred vacant buildings to the~ Was it the first year you started working as a 4 vacant building section. Correct?

b cede inspector that you would have referred a 5 A Not necessarily. If I have a building that the6 building to vacant buildings? 6 occupants have just moved out and they have, you7 A It's possible. 7 know, completed all the code deficiencies, there8 ~ How many times have you referred a building to 8 may be a time period where they are just waiting9 vacant buildings? 9 for another occupant to move in.10 A I don't know the exact number. 10 ~ How many times have you attended a legislative11 ~ Is it over 100 times you've done that since 11 hearing in the City of St. Paul regarding code12 you've been an inspector starting in 2000? 12 issues?13 A I don't know the number. 13 A Three or four times maybe.14 ~ But you do have the authority, as you understand 14 ~ Was that all during the period that Mr. Dawkins15 it, to refer a single family or a duplex 15 was a director?16 property to the vacant building section? 16 A I believe so.17 A Yes. 17 ~ Do you recall during those times whether or not18 ~ But you just don't remember how many times 18 you provided photographs of the particular19 you've done that? 19 property that you were relating to?20 A Correct. 20 A I may have.21 ~ What would be the circumstances where you I d 21 ~ Have you ever assisted the police department in22 refer a building to the vacant building section 22 a criminal investigation in any way?23 of your office? 23 A Not that I know of.24 A If it I S a vacant property. 24 ~ Let I s go back to your work as a dispatcher for~_~_H_O_i1_w_o_ul_d_~_ro_u_m_a_ke_th_a_t_d_e_te_r_ml_' n_a_tl_'o_n?_, -t-2_5 th_e_C_i_t_y_o_f_S_t_._P_au_l_in_th_e_po_l_ic_e_d_e_p_ar_t_me_n_t_.__

134 136A If I'd visit the site and it's vacant. 1 Did you socialize with any of the members of the~ Did you, as an area inspector between 2000 and 2 police department during that period that you

2002, go out during your daily duties as an 3 were there for a year?inspector looking to see if properties in your 4 A With any members?assigned area were vacant? 5 ~ Yeah, with any members of the police department.

A I don't re[ember. 6 A I was married -- my husband at the time worked~ So you don't remember if that was part of your 7 at the police department.

role? 8 ~ What was his position at the police department?A No, I don't. 9 A Property room clerk.~ Look at Typical Duties Performed on Exhibit 1, 10 ~ How long had he worked at the police department?

STP 0442. We have already talked about the 11 A I don't know.first bullet point there of examples of duties 12 ~ Let's turn to Exhibit 1 again under the firstperformed in your position. But the second 13 heading, Competencies. What training have youbullet point there says, "Conducts routine 14 had, as it relates to public health laws, sincemonitoring inspections of unoccupied and vacant 15 you became a code inspector?bu:ldings." You've indicated that you referred 16 A Can you clarify?buildings to the vacant building members of your 17 ~ Well, have you had any training of any natureoffice, Have you ever been assigned a role of 18 regarding pUblic health laws?monitoring vacant 19 MS. SEEBA: Object, form andbuildings? 20 foundation.

A No. 21 A I'm not sure what those laws are. So I don't~ So your role has strictly been to refer a 22 know.

building that you thought was unoccupied and 23 ~ (Continuing by Mr, Shoemaker) As an inspectorvacant to the vacant building section in your 24 since 2000, what type of laws do you enforce?office? 25 A The city ordinances.

12345678910111213141516171819

~

EXHIBIT 21


137 139MR. SHOEMAKER: Read that back,

please.1 Q What are they? Generally, what are they? 12 You've got Chapter 34. We talked about that. 2,~ A What other ordinances do you enforce? 43 " hMS . REPOhRTdER: Wha~ kifnd of h("" Chapter 45. tralnlng ave you a, startlng rom t e year

:J Q Any others? 5 2000, with regards to animal feces and how that6 A Not that I can recall. 6 would adversely affect occupants of properties?7 Q How about the building codes, as you understand 7 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you understand8 that you apply as an inspector, which building 8 that question?9 codes do you apply? 9 A I don't think we have had formal training in10 A I'd have to look at the chapters. 10 animal feces, if that's the question.11 Q Other than Chapters 34 and 45, is there any 11 Q What are your concerns, as an environmental12 other source that you have to refer to as an 12 inspector, health inspector, what are the13 inspector? 13 concerns that you have when you observe animal14 A There may be. 14 feces in a property?15 Q You have to make determinations regarding health 15 A Unsanitary conditions.16 issues as it relates to the interiors of 16 Q What level of animal feces do you have to see17 properties as an inspector? 17 before you'd have a concern as an environmental18 A What health issues are you referring to? 18 health inspector on the interior of a property?19 Q Well, what health issues do you see as an 19 A If I'm looking at one pile versus the entire20 inspector when you're out inspecting properties 20 floor being covered in animal feces, that's the21 and interiors of properties? 21 difference.22 A You I re asking what do I see when I go inside? 22 Q So there's a degree of animal feces where you23 Q Right. 23 get to a point where as an environmental health24 A It ranges. 24 inspector you're concerned about the health of

~_Q_W_h_at_a_re_th_e_t_y_p_iC_a_l_h_ea_l_th_i_ss_u_e_s _t_ha_t_yo_u_s_e_e_?__t-2_5 th_e_o_c_c_up_a_nt_s_._C_or_r_e_ct_? _

138 140A Right.Q How about with regards to where you see animal

feces on the interior of a home, do youtypically give the occupants instructions toclean up the animal feces?

A Yes.Q How do you communicate those instructions?A Verbally, send orders.Q Would you attempt to give verbal instructions

first to the occupants?A Absolutely.Q Why is that?A Because they're standing right there.Q If the occupants said they would take care of

it, what would you do to follow-up?A Set another time to come back and check.Q Would you always issue a written order?A Not always.Q So you may just trust the occupant to clean up

what you've pointed out and make sure you comeback and check if they've done it?

A Yes.Q How about with regard to any infestation of

rodents, whether it's rats or mice, is that alsoa degree of infestation that would concern you?

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

A Lack of smoke detectors, lack of water, lack ofelectricity.

Q Unsanitary conditions?A Often.Q Any other health type issues that you see when

you conduct interior inspections?A There could be rodents, roaches.Q Anything else?A I'm sure there could be.Q Based on your experience, you've had a better

part of six years experience as an inspectordoing 5 to 15 inspections a day, sometimes more,sometimes less. What type of things have youseen, in addition to what you described, thatwould relate to health issues on the interior ofproperties?

A Probably animal feces.Q Anything else that you can think of?A Like I said, I'm sure there's others. I can't

think of any at this moment.What kind of training have you had, startingfrom the year 2000, with regards to animal fecesand how that would adversely affect occupants ofproperties?

A Can you clarify the question?

~L

232425

1234567891011121314151617181920~Q

EXHIBIT 21


"Lot!.

232425

12

f

12345678910111213141516171819

~

1~ 1~

A Yes. 1 of St. Paul as it related to infestation of any~ So if you saw some evidence of infestation, what 2 type of a rodent?

is your typical response to that as far as it 3 A I don't recall a property ever being condemnedrelates to the occupants? 4 based on just rodents.

o A Again, giving them notice to remove any type of 5 ~ Did you understand though that a property that6 rodent harborage, sending orders, obviously. 6 had a severe infestation of rodents can be7 ~ But you'd also ask them to bait for mice or for 7 condemned solely on that particular observation8 rats? 8 by the inspector?9 A Sure. 9 MS. SEEBA: Objection, foundation.10 ~ So while you're on the interior of a property 10 A Can you repeat the question?11 talking to the occupants, you would communicate 11 ~ (Continuing by ~r. Shoemaker) Did you ever have12 to the occupants that they should take 12 an understanding that a property in the City of13 corrective action to eliminate the infestation? 13 St. Paul could be condemned because it had a14 A If it's an owner occupant, yes. 14 severe infestation of rodents?15 ~ Hew about if it's a rental property and you're 15 A No.16 talking to the tenant, what would be different? 16 ~ You didn't have an understanding as it related17 A I would let them know that I will notify the 17 to that?18 owner. 18 A No.19 ~ Notify the owner to do what? 19 ~ Was it your understanding that a property would20 A To take care of the issue. 20 have to have some other type of violation in21 ~ Again, someone that would have the 21 addition to a severe rodent infestation before22 responsibility for rectifying the particular 22 it could be condemned?23 issue that you've seen. Correct? 23 A Each case is different. I guess if I had a24 A Correct. 24 question, I would bring it to my supervisor to

(A_~_F_r_om_t_he_st_a_nd_p_o_in_t_o_f_a_n_im_a_l_f_e_c_es_or_r_od_e_nt __-t-2_5 de_t_er_m_i_ne_th_a_t_. _

1~ 1~

infestation, what type of training have you had, 1 ~ If you saw a severe infestation of rodents, youwhether it's formal training or some type of 2 would take that to your supervisor to seecoursework or any kind of classes, have you had 3 whether or not that is a condemnable condition?that would relate to any of those kind of 4 A Yes.issues? 5 ~ Was that the case from 2000 through 2005 in your

A I don't recall. 6 experience?~ Do you ever remember going and taking any type 7 A Yes.

of course on how to determine if in fact there 8 ~ Any time that you condemned a property as anwas an infestation of rodents in a property? 9 environmental health inspector or as a code

A I don't rerr.ember. 10 inspector or a member of the problem property~ Did you understand that Mr. Dawkins' Rules a:ld 11 unit, did you always take those observations on

Procedures differentiated between an infestation 12 properties that you thought should be condemnedand a severe infestation in a property? 13 to your supervisor?

A Did I understand that? 14 A Yes.~ Right. 15 ~ And your supervisor, Mr. Betz, did you ever goA No. 16 to him with regard to any condemnable conditions~ You said that you had a copy of Mr. Dawkins' 17 that you'd observed?

Rules and Procedures once he formulated those in 18 A I may have. I don't recall.2000. You're saying that you did not read the 19 ~ Do you know of any case where you condemned adifference that Mr. Dawkins had in his rules 20 property without having a supervisor give youconcerning infestation versus severe 21 the okay?infestation? 22 A No.

A No, I don't recall that. 23 ~ It's your statement that there was never a~ What was your understanding as to when a single 24 building you condemned that was not approved by

family or duplex could be condemned in the City 25 a supervisor?EXHIBIT 21


145 14712

A Not that I know of, no. 1 many times have you observed that since you~ What is your understanding about rodent 2 started work with the city in the year 2000?

harborages as it relates to the pest and rodent 3 A It depends on what you're determining severeissue on properties? 4 rodent infestation.

o MS. SEEBA: Form. 5 ~ Well, if the Rules and Procedures of Mr. Dawkins6 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you know what a 6 as he was a director in your department required7 rodent harborage is? 7 severe infestation of rodents in order to8 A No. 8 condemn a property, would you have used that9 ~ Have you ever written an order on a rodent 9 working definition in condemning a property if10 harborage? 10 it was based on severe infestation?11 A I may have. 11 A I may have. I don't recall.12 ~ But you don't understand what a rodent harborage 12 Q Have you ever observed an infestation of rats,13 is as an inspector? 13 for exarr;ple, in a property?14 A I guess I'm not sure what your question is. 14 A Have I observed rats? Yes.15 ~ Well, isn't rodent harborage a frequent term 15 Q Have you ever observed an infestation of rats16 that's used as a code inspector on properties 16 inside an interior structure?17 that have debris laying around where rodents can 17 A Again, I don't know what your determination18 hide? 18 (sic) is of infestation.19 A Itls possible. 19 Q You don't know what my definition of infestation20 ~ t1hat term liould you use if you had a pile of 20 is?21 brush and debris and you had a food source 21 A No.22 nearby? How would you call that out as a code 22 ~ Have you ever had any training or. what an23 inspector? 23 infestation is --24 A Probably a sanitation issue. 24 A I don I t recall.~_~_H_a_ve_yo_u_e_v_e_r_u_se_d_t_h_e_t_e_rm_ro_d_e_nt_ha_r_b_or_a_ge_a_s_-+-2_5__~_-_-_a_s_it_re_l_a_te_s_t_o_ro_d_en_t_s_l_'n_sl_'d_e_o_f _

146 1481234

5678910111213141516171819

~~£

232425

an inspector?A I may have.~ You just don't recall it, as you sit here today?A Correct.~ If you used it, what was the definition of

rodent harborage?MS. SEEBA: Objection, form and

foundation. If you have something to show heron that, I think that would help.

A I don't know.MR. SHOEMAKER: I'm trying to get

her knowlecge. She's a six-year inspector,Louise.

MS. SEEBA: She's also said thatshe's seen a number of places. I don't know ifyou're specifically asking about a propertywhere she's written that or if you're justasking her generally if, in the hundreds ofproperties or thousands of properties that she'sseen, she's written that. I don't understandwhat your question is. If you can focus it onwhat Ms. Martin may be able to answer, thatwould help.

~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Ms. Martin, from astandpoint of severe infestation of rodents, how

1234567891011

1213141516171819202122232425

properties?A I don't recall.~ Have any of your superiors ever talked to you

about what would constitute an infestation ofrodents in a property?

A They may have. I don't recall.~ Do you have any working definition of what a

severe infestation of rodents would be?A No.~ Did you have an understanding as to what a

severe infestation of rodents was during thetime periods of 2002 to 200S?

MS. SEEBA: You're asking justgenerally not about --

MR. SHOEMAKER: I just gave her aspecific question.

~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you have anyrecollection that you had an understanding as towhat constituted a severe infestation of rodentsduring the time you were inspector in 2002 to200S?

A No.~ Have you ever had any complaints from property

owners that have been corr~unicated to the cityin writing that you know of?EXHIBIT 21


151

concern to you as a problem property unitmember.

A I don't recall.~ What do you recall about Ray and Kathryn Hessler

as to how they responded to your code notices ontheir properties?

A Ray and Katie have always been great aboutresponding whenever we have sent orders or Icould call them on the phone and they'd takecare of issues. On that particular property, Ibelieve they had notified me that it was soldand that they had given the new owner theinformation on the code issues that needed to betaken care of.

~ In your area of responsibility during 2000 to2002, how many properties were owned by Ray andKathryn Hessler?

A I have no idea.~ How many properties other than the 704 Lawson

property did you have contact with that wereowned by Ray and Kathryn Hessler?

A At that time, probably three or four.~ Were they all rental properties?A I believe so.~ Describe the kind of contact you had that you

d.232425

12

f

149A I guess I don't understand your question. 1 A That is correct.~ Has anyone ever written you a complaint that you 2 ~ And it was owned by Kathryn and Ray Hessler.

personally received? 3 Correct?MS. SEEBA: About a property? 4 A Correct.

o ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Any complaint. In 5 ~ And you had issued some orders on that property6 your role as a code inspector or environmental 6 related to code deficiencies --7 health ins~ector. 7 A I believe so.8 A They may have. I don't recall. 8 ~ -- while the Hesslers owned the property.9 ~ Do you have any recollection of any written 9 Right?10 complaint that was shown to you by any 10 A Correct.11 supervisor or other superior about a property 11 ~ Do you remember any police behavior issues on12 owner that was complaining about your role as a 12 that property during the time that you were13 code inspector? 13 writing code orders during 2002?14 A They may have. I don't recall. 14 A I don't recall.15 ~ So you as you sit here today, you don't remember 15 ~ Do you remember any discussions with any problem16 anyone that complained about what you did on 16 property member about Ms. Harrilal's property17 their property with regards to a code 17 during the year 2002?18 enforcement role you played on the property? 18 A I don't recall. But, again, if I had my file, I19 A No. 19 could look at it, but I don't recall.20 ~ I'm going to ask yeu this question: Other than 20 ~ I have looked at the code enforcement file and21 the plaintiffs in this case, you can't recall 21 there's no indication in there about any22 anybody ever making a complaint about how you 22 behavior issues. That's why I'm asking you the23 treated them in your role as a code inspector? 23 question, as to whether or not you recall24 MS. SEEBA: Is this any complaint? 24 whether or not there were any police behavior~__T_h_is_is_no_t_j_u_st_wr_i_tt_e_n?_. -+_2_5 i_ss_u_es_at_th_a_t_p_a_rt_i_cu_l_ar_p_ro_pe_r_t_y_t_ha_t_w_e_re_of__

150 152MR. SHOE~mKER: Any complaint, oral 1

or written. 2A Nc. 3~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Your answer is 4

still the same? You don't know? 5A That is co~rect. 6~ Do you remember the family named Ostles (ph)? 7A Never heard of them. 8~ What was the nature of the nuisance that was 9

present at Ms. Harrilal's property located at 10704 Lawson Avenue prior to the code orders that 11you wrote on her property in the fall of 20C2? 12

A I don't recall. 13~ You were a member of the problem property unit 14

by the fall of 2002. Correct? 15A Yes. 16Q Do you recall that Ms. HarrHal's property came 17

up on the problem property list early on in the 182002 time frame under your department? 19

A I don't recall, but I believe that that property 20was owned by Ray and Katie Hessler, who I had 21orders with them with. 22

~ So you had been working on that property prior 23to Ms. Harrilal purchasing the property. 24Correct? 25

12345678910111213141516171819

~

EXHIBIT 21


155

156Q The Hessler properties that you dealt with, what

were the general condition of those rentalproperties during the period of 2000 to 2002?Do you have any recollection of the generalcondition of the properties?

A I think most of the complaints that I hadreceived were vehicles and garbage.

Q So exterior type violations?A I believe so. Again, I'd have to look at each

case.Q Did the Hesslers have their own maintenance

staff, as far as you kne~?

A I don't know.Q You never had any contact with their maintenance

staff?A I may have. I don't remember.Q But you recall that the Hesslers were responsive

to your code not:ces to them?A Yes.Q How about with regard to Ms. Harrilal, did you

ever have any communications with her?A I believe I did.Q tihat do you recall about that?A Again, I'd have to look at my notes.Q So you don't have any independent recollection

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

and the documents that were submitted in thetenant remedy case the following spring or latewinter, you claim that a September 2002 workorder that was issued to Ms. Harrilal had notbeen responded to by her. Is that correct?

A I don't recall.Q You don't recall that that was the basis for

your claim that she was a repeat violator of thecodes?

A No, I don't remember that.Q Do you have any recollection as to your role

with regards to the tenant remedy case that thecity filed against Ms. Harrilal in about Januaryor February of 2003 on that same property, 704La\~son?

A No.Q Did you ever work with any of the city attorney

staff in their pursuing tenant remedy casesduring 2002 to 2005?

A What do you mean work with?Q Did you provide them with documents on

properties that you had inspected where theywere going to take tenant remedy cases to courton those properties?

A Yes.

~2

232425

12

~

12345678910111213141516171819

~

153can recall about those properties during 2000 to 1 ~ How many times did you -- how many properties2002. 2 did you actually work with the tenant remedy

A Again, I don't recall specifics. 3 staff on?Q Did you ever meet any other tenants at those 4 A I don't remember.

:> properties? 5 Q Was it more than five?6 A I don't recall. 6 A It's possible.7 Q The three or four properties you said? 7 Q There were two with Mr. Steinhauser you recall.8 A I don't recall. 8 Correct?9 Q You don't recall how many properties that you 9 A Yes.10 had contact with that were owned by the Hesslers 10 Q The 910 6th Street and the 1024 Euclid TRA's?11 between 2000 and 2002? 11 A Yes.12 A No, I'd have to look at the files. 12 Q Then with Ms. Harrilal's property located at 70413 Q But you know it was more than one property? 13 Lawson you also worked with the city attorney14 A Yes. 14 staff on that property?15 Q So was the 704 Lawson property in your area of 15 A It's possible.16 responsibility during the time period of 2000 to 16 Q You don't have any recollection of it?17 2002? 17 A No.18 A I don't remember how I got that. It could have 18 Q Do you remember any other tenant remedy cases19 been a sweep that I had picked up. 19 that you worked with the city attorney staff on20 Q But it's your understanding that the Hesslers 20 during 2002 to 2005?21 told you that they had notified the current 21 A Not at this time, no.22 owner, Ms. Harrilal, as to the outstanding code 22 Q Do you remember working on a tenant remedy case23 issues that you had notified them of? 23 against Bee Vue and Lamina Vue on one of their24 A That is correct. 24 properties?~ Q My understanding, from the tenant remedy case 25 A I may have. I don't recall.C···-----------i-----------

154

EXHIBIT 21


15912

t'

157of any conversations you had with Ms. Harrilal? 1 Is that right?

A No. 2 A Yes.Q Do you have any recollection of any 3 Q And you would have looked at any of the comments

conversations you had with any of her workers on 4 that were printed on those lists?o her property after she learned in January and 5 A I may have.6 February that there were code issues on her 6 Q How about any of the handwritten notes that were7 properties? 7 written on those lists, do you ever remember8 MS. SEEBA: Objection, form. 8 reading those as well?9 A I remember meeting a gentleman -- I don't know 9 A No, I don't remember having any handwritten10 if it was who she had hired who was doing 10 notes on mine.11 maintenance. Then there was a Jerry Fisher that 11 Q Was each individual that was a member of the12 was on site one time. I don't remember the 12 problem property unit provided with a copy of13 specific conversations with those individuals. 13 the problem property list?14 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Mr. Magner made an 14 A Usually when there was a meeting, Pat McGinn15 inspection on Ms. Harrilal's property while you 15 handed out a list.16 were there. Correct? 16 Q How were the meetings conducted? From the start17 A I don't recall that. 17 of the problem property unit, did you have a18 Q You don't ever recall Mr. Magner coning to the 18 separate room you met in?19 704 Lawson property at any time? 19 A Aconference room at 1600 White Bear Avenue.20 A I don't recall that. 20 Q And the meetings of the problem property members21 Q How about Officer Koehnen, did he ever make a 21 would include -- could include the inspectors as22 visit to the 704 Lawson property owned by 22 well as the officers. Correct?23 Ms. Harrilal during 2003? 23 A What do you mean by inspectors?24 A Yes. 24 Q Well, like yourself and Mr. Magner.

~_Q_W_ha_t_d_O_y_O_u_r_ec_a_ll_ab_o_ut_t_ha_t_v_i_Sl_' t_t_o_he_r +-2_5__A_Ye_s_. _

158 16012345678910111213141516171819

~-.c2232425

property?A That he probably drove me there.Q When he was a member of the problem property

unit, did he accompany you in the field on adaily basis?

A Oftentimes, yes.Q But he wouldn I t do that every time. Is that

what you're saying?A Right. If other inspectors needed him to go to

properties, he would respond with otherinspectors.

Q So he was on a floating basis. He could beassigned to the other inspectors as well. Isthat right?

A If someone needed assistance, yes, he'd go helpthe other inspectors.

Q Did you ever have any role in the creation ofproblem property lists that were maintained byyour office during 2002 to 2005?

A What do you mean by did I have any role?Q Well, did you see the problem property lists

were passed around during meetings with otherproblem property people?

A Yes.Q So you'd reviewed the addresses on those lists.

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

Q And Officer Wiegel and/or Officer Koehnen.Correct?

A Yes.Q Was Mr. Dawkins at everyone of the problem

property meetings?A Not everyone.Q So it was typical to have Mr. Dawkins there?A Yes.Q But at times he wasn't there?A Correct.Q And Pat McGinn, was she present during the

meetings as well?A Yes.Q And you mentioned that she's the one that

prepared the lists?A Correct.Q And the lists that you're referring to are the

problem property lists?A Correct.Q What was her role inside the department during

the 2002 time frame?A I don't know.Q Was she an office manager?A I believe so.Q Did she have control over the clerical staffEXHIBIT 21


161 1631 w:'thin the office? 1 Q At times you would?2 A I don I t know what her role was. 2 A Yes.~ AQ At any time did you learn what her role was? 3

4Q Were there notes taken during the meetings?

(". No. MS. SEEBA: You mean by --b Q Do you know how long she I s been with code 5 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) By anyone during6 enforcement? 6 the meetings, were any notes taken?7 A I have no idea. 7 MS. SEEBA: Objection, foundation.8 Q Do you know how long she's been with the City of 8 A There may have been. I didn't take notes, no.9 St. Paul? 9 Q (Continuing by ~r. Shoemaker) Did Mr. Dawkins10 A I have no idea. 10 take notes during the problem property meetings?11 Q How many times do you remember Pat !-lcGinn being 11 A I don I t know. He may have.12 at a problem property meeting? 12 Q Do you remember where he sat typically in the13 A She was there pretty much mostly every meeting. 13 conference room during the meetings?14 Q What was her role at the meeting? 14 A No.15 A She handed out the problem property list. 15 Q Do you remember where Ms. McGinn sat during the16 Q And did she take part in the discussions at the 16 meetings of the problem property unit?17 meeting? 17 A No.18 A I don I t recall. 18 Q How long were these meetings typically?19 Q What do you recall as to how the meetings 19 A Approximately an hour.20 themselves were conducted? 20 Q How often would they take place?21 A Usually Mark Wiegel would go through each 21 A Once a month or every two months.22 property. And if anybody wanted to bring up any 22 Q Did Ms. McGinn ever provide you with information23 issues or weld update on what's goir.g on with 23 after the meeting so that you would have an24 court cases, where things were at with each 24 understanding as to what had been discussedt'__p_ro_p_e_rt_y_. +-2_5 a_nd_/_or_wh_a_t_w_a_s_g_oi_n_g_t_o_b_e_d_o_ne_? _

12345678910111213141516171819

r"l£L232425

162Q So would Officer Wiegel pretty much be the one 1

that was presenting the information during the 2meetings? 3

A Usually. 4Q Who else would do any presentations during the 5

meetings? 6A Andy Dawkins. 7Q Anyone else? 8A I would update what I have done on code issues. 9Q So, in other words, the participants to the 10

meeting would pretty much all have some input 11during the meeting? 12

A Yes. 13Q Were there any other documents, other than the 14

problem property list, that you, as a member of 15the problem property unit, would have had in 16your possession during the meetings? 17

A Is there anything specific? 18Q Yeah, I want to know if there I s anything other 19

than the problem property list. 20A Not that I know of. 21Q Would you have the paper files on properties 22

with you that would include your log entries as 23to what you were doing on a property? 24

A Not necessarily. 25

164A No.Q Did you subsequently get updated reports or I

should say updated problem property lists?A Yes.Q When would you get those after a meeting?A Aday or so after.Q So there would be notes that would be entered on

the problem property list under the area of whatwas the issue that would update you as aninspector?

A Not necessarily. It could have been a propertythat's no longer on the list that was removed.

Q Did you ever see any of Mr. Dawkins' chartsduring the problem property meetings?

A Which chart?Q Did you see any charts? 11masking you whether

you saw any charts. I'm not being specificbecause I don't know what the charts would be.I wasn't a member of the unit. What charts, ifany, did you observe during any of the problemproperty unit meetings that Mr. Dawkins had?

A I don't recall.Q Do you remember ever having anyone outside of

the code inspection department make anappearance at any of the problem propertyEXHIBIT 21


~ Any of your family members ever owned anybusiness? I'm talking about whether or not theywere your husband's or whether or not they wereyour family's.

A Yes.~ Describe that for me.A My husband has a construction company.~ What is the name of that?A Templer Construction.Q Where is his office located?A South St. Paul.Q How long has he had that company?A Just opened it.Q Is he a sole owner of the company?A Yes.Q nhat type of work does he do? What type of

construction?A I don't know. He hasn't done any work yet.Q How about any other businesses that any of your

husbands or family members have owned, can yourecall any others?

A I believe my sister sells Shaklee.Q How many brothers do you have?A I have one brother.Q Where does he reside?

12345678910111213141516171819

~t.I.232425

165 167meetings? 1 A I ran into her at bring your kid to work day and

A Yes. 2 took a photograph with her and the Mayor.Q Who was that? 3 Q That's the only time you've ever had any contactA Officer Mike Carroll. 4 with her?

:> Q How often did he come to the problem property 5 A I have run into her at a community meeting at6 meetings? 6 Daytons Bluff.7 A Frequently. 7 Q When was that?8 Q Now there's three officers that attended at 8 A I don't recall. It was during the last year.9 different times, or maybe all at once, the 9 Q What was the purpose that you were at the10 meetings of the problem property unit. Were 10 community meeting at Daytons Bluff last year?11 there three officers or were there more? 11 A We did a walk through the neighborhood.12 A Three, as far as I know. 12 Q Who was present on that walk-through?13 Q You don't remember any other police employee or 13 A The Mayor, someone representing animal control,14 official that had ever attended the meetings 14 block club members, myself, Kathy Lantry.15 other than Officers Wiegel, Koehnen and Carroll? 15 Q Any landlords involved on that tour?16 A Correct. 16 A I think Roy from -- I don't know what his last17 Q How about any other third party outside of the 17 name is. He owns Budget Towing. I'm not sure18 code enforcement division, anyone else attend a 18 who else was present.19 problem property meeting that you can remember? 19 Q How long was that tour of the neighborhood you20 A The only other outside source that I can think 20 described?21 of is someone representing the city attorneys 21 A I don't remember how long. With the tour and22 office. 22 meeting, I think it was a couple hours.23 Q How often lias the city attorneys office 23 Q The tour, was it where you walked through the24 represented at the problem property meetings? 24 neighborhoods?

~_A_p_re_t_tY_fr_e_qU_en_t_Iy_. +-25__A_Y_e_s_. _

1~ 1~

Q Is that like most of the time? 1A Yes. 2Q Were there times when a city attorney wasn't 3

present? 4A I don't recall. 5Q Do you ever remember any of the aids to the city 6

council coming down to your problem property 7meetings? 8

A No. 9Q How about any councilmembers themselves? 10A Not that I can recall. 11Q Did you ever have any contact with any of the 12

councilmembers since you started with the code 13enforcement in the year 2000? 14

A Since 2000? 15Q Right. 16A Any contact at all \\ith the city council? 17Q Right, that's my question. 18A Kathy Lantry. 19Q Who else have you had contact with at the city 20

council since 2000? 21A That's the only one I can think of. 22Q With regards to Councilmember Lant ry, what de 23

you recall about your communications with her or 24her communications with you? 25

12

f

EXHIBIT 21


171169A South Carolina. 1 A I believe it was in 1999.Q What does he do? 2 Q Who were the purchasers of the home, do youA Retired. 3 remember that?Q How about your sister. Other than the Shaklee, 4 A I don't remember.

~ what does she do? 5 Q Was it a couple?6 A She works for the state. 6 A It was a couple.7 Q What department? 7 Q Did they have a family?8 A I don't know. 8 A I don't believe they did.9 Q Where does she live? 9 Q The next home that you would have sold was what10 A In St. Paul. 10 home?11 Q What is her address? 11 A I have never sold another home.12 A 1413 Juliet. 12 Q So that was the only home you've ever sold?13 Q How long has she lived in the City of St. Paul? 13 A Yes.14 A I believe since she moved out of my parents 14 Q Did you ever do any remodeling work at any time15 house when she was 18. 15 to that home in Inver Grove Heights?16 Q So a long time? 16 A No.17 A Yes. 17 Q Did you ever have any code notices of any type18 Q Any other addresses she's lived at? 18 from the city of Inver Grove Heights on your19 A Nope. 19 property?20 Q That's the only one? 20 A Not that I know of.21 A Correct. 21 Q Have you ever received any code notices on any22 Q So she's been there the entire time? 22 property that you have lived in?23 A Yes. 23 A Yes.24 Q Is she married? 24 Q What do you recall about the code notice that~_A_Y_e_s. +-2_5 y_ou_re_c_e_iv_e_d? _

170 172Q To who? 1 A I don't remember the actual notice, but it was aA Timothy Loney (ph). 2 citation that was received from the City ofQ What's his occupation? 3 South St. Paul.A He's in the military. 4 Q Which property was that?Q lihat branch is he in? 5 A My current property.A us Army. 6 Q t~hen was that you received a citation?Q Have you ever sold any home that you've owned? 7 A That would have been, I believe, two years ago,A Yes. 8 maybe three.Q Let's go back to the first home that you would 9 Q Are you talking about a housing -- criminal

have sold. What home was that? 10 misdemeanor citation?A In Inver Grove Heights. 11 A I don't know. My husband dealt with it.Q What was the street address of that horne? 12 Q So you I re not sure if it was civil or criminal?A 8251 Dawson Way. 13 A I have no idea.Q How long did you own that home before you sold 14 Q Do you know what particular part of the

it? 15 structure or what code deficiency was noted?A I believe two years. 16 A I don't.Q Was there a TISH requirement in the city of 17 Q Do you know if your husband made any payment to

Inver Grove at the time you sold the property? 18 the city as a result of that particular codeA I don't remember. 19 notice?Q Did the purchasers of the property have an 20 A I have no idea.

inspection conducted of your property? 21 Q When you sold your property in Inver Grove, youA I don't know. 22 said that was in 1999?Q You don't remember that? 23 A Correct.A No, I don't. 24 Q Then you purchased a property thereafter?Q t~hat was the year that that was sold? 25 A No.

12

f

12345678910111213141516171819

~~L

232425 EXHIBIT 21


173 17512

f'Q Have you purchased a property since 1999? 1 Q Have you had lunch with Officer Koehnen sinceA Yes. 2 his deposition?Q What year was that? 3 A Yes, I have.A I believe it was 2001 or 20n. 4 Q How many times?

~ Q That's the home that's located where? 5 A Twice a week.6 A On Stickney Avenue. 6 Q How long of lunches have you had with Officer7 Q South St. ?aul? 7 Koehnen since his deposition?8 A Correct. 8 A Probably 45 minutes to an hour.9 Q Have you refinanced that home at any time? 9 Q How about with regards to Mr. Lippert, have you10 A Yes. 10 had any discussions with him since he had his11 Q lihen was the first time after you bought that 11 deposition?12 property in 2000 or 2001 that you refinanced it? 12 A No.13 A It was just like last year. 13 Q Have you had any discussions with any of the14 Q Did you go to a closing on the refinancing? 14 other inspectors generally about the lawsuits?15 A Yes. 15 A No.16 Q Did you have to fill out any type of affidavit 16 Q When the Steinhauser case was filed in May of17 as part of the forms? 17 2004, did you have a meeting with the inspectors18 A I don I t remember. 18 regarding the lawsuit?19 Q Did you disclose that you were a defendant in 19 A Me personally?20 federal cases, Steinhauser and Harrilal? 20 Q Yeah, with any of the inspectors. Were you21 A I don't remember that. 21 present at any discussion, other than with22 Q You don't have any recollec:ion of that? 22 Ms. Seeba or someone else from the city23 A No. 23 attorneys office?24 Q How did you prepare for your deposition today? 24 MS. SEEBA: You're asking about

~_A_I_m_e_t_w_i_th_m_y_at_t_or_n_eY_' -t_2_5 me_e_t_in_g_s_t_ha_t_Fr_a_nk_or_I_w_er_e_n_'t_a_t_._R_ig_h_t. _

174 1761 MR. SHOE~~KER: Right.2 A No.3 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) How about did you4 have a meeting with the city attorneys office?5 A Yes.6 Q How many meetings did you have with the city7 attorneys office following the Steinhauser8 complaint being filed in May of 2004?9 A I believe twice.10 Q Was the first meeting during or shortly after11 the filing of the Steinhauser case?12 A I don't remember.13 Q When do you remember the last meeting with the14 city attorneys office other than with Ms. Seeba15 to prepare?16 A That would've been when Louise Seeba came out to17 our office and --18 MS. SEEBA: That's enough.19 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) I'm not asking for20 any communication. I just want to know when the21 meetings were.22 A I don't remember.23 Q So you recall a meeting sometime after the24 filing of the Steinhauser case. Correct?25 A I don't remember the date.

Q When did you meet with her?A Yesterday.Q Did you have any prior meetings with her?A No.Q Have you talked with any of the other inspectors

at any time about their depositions?A No.Q You didn't talk to Mr. Koehnen, Officer Koehnen,

about his deposition?A No. I was present for his deposition.Q Did you have any discussions with him afterwards

about his deposition?A No.Q Have you worked with Officer Koehnen since his

deposition?A No.Q You haven't had occasion to have him ride around

with you at any time since his deposition?That is correct.Have you seen him in the office since hisdeposition?

A Yes, I have.Q How often have you seen him since his

deposition?A Maybe three times a week.

~2

232425

12345678910111213141516171819 A

~Q

EXHIBIT 21


179177~ I know that. But you do recall a meeting with 1 A My position as a -- I know I pay union dues.

the city attorneys office about the Steinhauser 2 ~ So you are a member of the union as a codecase. Correct? 3 inspector for the city?

A I don't remember what case it was on. 4 A I believe so, yes.t> Q Did you ever read the Steinhauser Complaint at 5 Q Did you have conversations with union members6 any time? 6 after the Frank Steinhauser case was filed7 A I think there's three different ones. So which 7 against the city in May of 2004?8 one? 8 A I donlt believe so.9 ~ I'm talking about the Steinhauser Complaint. 9 ~ You don I t remember having conversations with10 Have you ever read the Steinhauser, Kelly 10 personnel from the union office about the nature11 Brisson, Mark Meysembourg Complaint? 11 of the claims being made against you?12 A I may have. 12 A No.13 Q You just donlt recall it? 13 ~ Did you ever meet with union officials at any14 A No. 14 time about the nature of the claims being made15 ~ Do you remember reading the Sandy Harrilal, 15 against you?16 Steve Johnson, Bee Vue and Limana Vue Complaint 16 A Never.17 where youlre a named defendant? 17 Q How about with regards to meetings with the18 A I may have. I don't remember. 18 union officials with regards to the claims in19 ~ Do you remember any discuss ions about the 19 general being made against the inspection20 Steinhauser claims as it related to Mr. Vue 20 department?21 after MI. Steinhauserls case was filed? 21 A No.22 A No. 22 Q Have you talked to your husband about the claims23 ~ So it's your testimony that you've r.ot had any 23 being made against you?24 discussions about the depositions with any of 24 A No.~__t_he_i_ns_p_ec_t_or_s_w_h_o_h_a_ve_a_lr_e_ad_y_b_e_e_n_d_ep_o_s_ed_in_-f_2_5__Q_H_a_ve_y_ou_ta_l_k_ed_to_y_ou_r_h_u_sb_a_n_d_a_bo_u_t_t_h_e _

178 180

12

f

1 general nature of the lawsuits?2 A He knew we were -- that I was served at our3 horne.4 ~ Have you ever met Roger Tollis (ph)?5 A Yes.6 Q Tell me how you know Roger Tollis.7 A I dropped off some car payments for my husband8 at his office.9 ~ Did Hr. Tollis playa role in financing of a10 vehicle for your husband?11 A I donlt know. I believe so.12 ~ So that was the reason that your husband would13 have been dropping off some car payments to14 Mr. Tollis?15 A Yes.16 Q Have you ever met Mr. Tollis in person?17 A Yes.18 ~ How often have you had any meetings with him?19 A Probably twice or three times.20 ~ When do you recall first meeting Mr. Tollis?21 A Probably when I dropped off payments at his22 office.23 ~ What year are you talking about that you would24 have done that?25 A I don't know. Probably 2002, 2003.

this case?A Correct.~ Have you had any conversations with any of the

inspectors you worked with at the city codeenforcement office about the nature of theclaims that the plaintiff landlords arebringing?

A Not that I can recall, no.~ My question to you is outside of the discussions

that youlve had with the city attorneys office,the two meetings you recall, have you ever hadany discussions with any of the inspectors aboutthe nature of the claims that the landlords aremaking in these three lawsuits?

A No.Q Have you ever had any discussion with any of the

inspectors about the claims that are being madeagainst you personally?No.Have you ever talked to any attorney outside ofthe city attorneys office about the nature ofthe claims against you personally?

A No.Q As a code inspector from 2000 forward at any

time, was that a union position?

~2

232425

12345678910111213141516171819 A

~~

EXHIBIT 21


183

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

A Never.Q How about lawsuits? You've had a number of

divorces. Other than the divorces, have youever been a plaintiff or a defendant in alawsuit?

A No.Q What documents did you review in preparation for

your deposition today?A There was tWO -- like the amended number 2 and

number 3.Q So you're talking about the Complaints?A Correct.Q So the Steinhauser Third Amended Complaint you

leoked at?A I believe that's what it was.Q The current version of the Complaints in the

Steinhauser and the Harrilal case is what youlooked at?It's possible.What portions of those Complaints did you lookat?

A I just glanced through it.Q How much time did you spend on looking through

the Steinhauser Complaint?A Maybe five minutes.

d.

232425

1811 Q What type of a vehicle was it that was subject 1 Q How about with regards to the Harrilal2 to the loan? 2 Complaint, how much time did you spend in3 A An old gray vehicle. I have no idea. 3 preparation for your deposition by reviewingr Q Have you had any meetings with Mr. Tollis other 4 that Complaint?~ than when you dropped off payments for the 5 A About five minutes.6 vehicle? 6 Q When you were doing your refinancing of your7 A No. 7 home as you mentioned, who did you refinance8 Q Have you ever had any conversations with 8 through?9 Mr. Tollis by telephone? 9 A Countrywide.10 A I may have. I don It recall anything. 10 Q Who was the closing company?11 Q Does your husband know Mr. Tollis in some type 11 A I don I t remember that name.12 of a form, like a friend or business associate? 12 Q Do you remember where they were located?13 A I don't know that. 13 A In Bloomington.14 Q You don I t have any idea as to how your husband 14 Q You don't remember the name of the closing15 made contact with Mr. Tollis? 15 company?16 A Nope. 16 A No.17 Q Have you ever had any type of criminal 17 Q Or the realty company that the closing was held18 connections of any type of any nature? 18 in?19 A Speeding tickets. 19 A No.20 Q So your answer is only speeding tickets and no 20 Q Did you receive papers as part of the closing on21 misdemeanor violations? 21 the property?22 A Correct. 22 A Yes.23 Q Any DUI' s? 23 Q Do you still have those papers?24 A Never. 24 A Yes.~_Q__DW_I_'S_? t--25__Q__Do_y_ou_ha_v_e_a_n_y_p_r_of_e_ss_i_on_a_l_l_i_ce_n_s_es_th_a_t_y_o_u__

182 184hold? I know you talked about that you've had alot of training and a lot of differentemployment positions. Let me just ask youcurrently if there's any professional licensesthat you have.

A No.Q Have you ever held any professional licenses?A Just the insurance licensing for auto, home and

life insurance.Q Let's focus on the condemnation of properties.

How many properties have you condemned in yoursix years or so as a code inspector?

A I don't know.MS. SEEBA: Asked and answered.

Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you rememberhow many properties you would have condemnedduring Mr. Dawkins' tenure as a director?

A I don't know.Q Did you condemn more than one property a week

when you were an inspector working withMr. Dawkins?

A I don't know.Q You don't remember that?A No.Q During the 2002 to 2005 time frame, what was

12345678910111213141516171819 A

~. Q

EXHIBIT 21


185 187

MS. SEEBA: Objection, form.~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Why wouldn't you

have that concern?MS. SEEBA: Form, speculation. I

don't know where you're going with this. Let'smove on.

MR. SHOEMAKER: She hasn't answeredthe question.

A I said no, I wouldn't have a concern.~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) You wouldn't have

a concern if a rental property that you were

~ I'm talking about in your role as a renter inthe years prior to your joining the city. Anyof the rental properties, if they would havebeen condemned and you were ordered out of yourrental property, wouldn't that have been aconcern to you?

A No.~ Why?A Because it was obviously unsafe for me to be

there.~ Wouldn't you have a concern as to where you're

going to go, where you're going to findalternative housing?

A No.

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

12

::l

6789101112131415161718192021222324

~2.

232425

your understanding as to when a property could 1 A What is the question?be condemned in the City of St. Paul as it 2 ~ Well, if you were going to condemn a propertyrelated to structures that you were dealing 3 and people were required to leave their home,with? 4 wouldn't that be of importance to you as an

A Life and safety issues. 5 inspector for the city?~ What was your understanding of what constituted 6 MS. SEEBA: Asked and answered.

a life and safety issue? 7 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you understandA No heat, no water, could be gross unsanitary, 8 the question?

general overall dilapidated conditions. 9 A No.~ Anything else? 10 ~ At your horne, if an inspector comes out andA Lacking smoke detector, anything that would be a 11 condemns your property, wouldn't you have a

life and safety violation. 12 concern as to where you're going to go?~ Did you have any discussion with any of your 13 A I guess my concern would be why was I condemned.

supervisors or the director of code enforcement 14 If it's that unsafe, then I shouldn't be there.during Mr. Dawkins' tenure as to when you should 15 ~ That would be your concern on your property?and should not condemn a property as it related 16 A Right.to the occupant's housing? 17 ~ But how about if you're a renter? During the

A Could you clarify that? 18 times you've rented and your property was~ l'lell, if you had a property :hat was occupied by 19 condemned, wouldn't it be your concern as to

tenants and they were calling that their horne, 20 where you would go to find alternative housing?did you ever have any discussion as to whether 21 A No.or not that would playa role in your making a 22 ~ Why wouldn't that have been a concern to you indetermination to condemn that property? 23 the rentals that you've had?

A I may have. I don't remember. 24 A My position was to enforce the codes, not to~_~_D_O_y_O_u_r_e_ca_I_I_a_nY_di_S_cu_S_Sl_' o_n_a_b_ou_t_a_co_n_ce_r_n_b_y__t-2_5 fl_'n_d_h_ou_s_i_ng_. _

186 188the inspectors, including yourself, that if youcondemned a property and required tenants toleave, that they may not be able to findalternative housing?

A Was that a concern for me?~ Right.A I guess I didn't think about it.~ Then the question is: Do you recall any

discussion by any of the fellow inspectors abouttheir concerns that if a pro~erty was condemned,the occupants would not potentially be able tofind alternative housing during Dawkins' tenureas a director?

A No.~ You don't remember any discussion that would

relate in any way to a concern about theoccupants of properties that were beingcondemned finding alternative housing during thetime Mr. Dawkins was a director?

A Not that I can recall.~ That would be a pretty important SUbject, would

it not, if you're condemning a building andrequiring people to leave their home?

MS. SEEBA: Objection, form.~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Isn't that true?

1234567891011121314151617181920~

EXHIBIT 21


191

~ And you worked there for how long?A About a year.~ What did you do as a property manager for that

company?A Screened tenants, took in rents, inspected

apartments.~ Let's look at the screening issue. What type of

a screening process was in place when you joinedAmhurst Wilder?

A Tenants would fill out an application and we'drun it through the Credit Bureau.

~ Who were the owners of that highrise apartmentcomplex?

A Redeemer's Lutheran Church.~ Do you know if they still own that property?A I don't know.~ So there was a credit check done as part of the

screening process. Correct?A Correct.~ Any other type of a background check as far as

screening goes?A I believe they looked at criminal records.~ My question related to the time period when you

first started with them and what type ofscreening program you saw that they had. So

tot.

232425

12

f

189renting was condemned, a concern that you 1 ~ What did they do?wouldn't be able to find alternative housing? 2 A It was housing.

A No. 3 ~ Housing what? Type of role with housing?~ As an inspector, did you ever have a concern 4 A It was an apartment complex in St. Paul.

~ that the individuals that were occupying the 5 ~ So were you working at the apartment complex?6 properties that you were condemning would not be 6 A Yes.7 able to find alternative housing? 7 ~ What was your job?8 A No. 8 A Property manager.9 ~ Why is that that you didn't have that concern? 9 ~ That was a part-time position. Correct?10 l'1asn't that your role to find them alternative 10 A It was full-time.11 housing? 11 ~ And the dispatch position with the city was also12 A That's not my role to find alternative housing. 12 full-tine at that time?13 However, there are agencies out the:-e to assist 13 A Right.14 people. 14 ~ So you were working two full-time jobs?15 ~ But it wasn't your concern whether or not those 15 A This was prior to.16 occupants in the condemned properties that you 16 ~ So prior to the dispatch, you were working full-17 had a role in condemning would be able to find 17 time as a property manager. What type of a18 alternative housing? 18 building was that?19 A Hy job was to make sure that the environment and 19 A It was a highrise.20 the home they were in was safe for them to be 20 ~ How many units were in there?21 there. 21 A I don't remember.22 HS. SEEBA: Why don't we take a 22 ~ Was it more than three?23 break. It's after 1:00. 23 A Yes.24 MR. SHOE~IAKER: It's ten after. 24 ~ Was it a 100-unit building?~__L_e_t'_s_c_om_e_ba_c_k_a_t_t_en_af_t_er_2_:0_0_. -t_2_5__A_I_t'_s_p_o_ss_i_b_le_. _

190 192(Luncheon recess, 1:10-2:10 p.m.) 1

~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Ms. Hartin, we 2were talking early this morning about employment 3history for you. I think where we left off was 4your city employment with the city police 5department and the code enforcement. Have you 6had any other positions with the City of 7St. Paul other than those two positions? 8

A No. 9~ When you were a dispatcher, did you have any 10

other employment outside of the City of 11St. Paul? 12

A Yes. 13~ There was a year that you worked for the police 14

department in the dispatch role. Correct? 15A Yes. 16~ What part-time or full-time positions did you 17

have outside the City of St. Paul during the 18time you were a dispatcher? 19

A Actually, it was right before I was a dispatcher 20and it was with Amhurst Wilder Foundation. 21

~ Tell me how long that work lasted. 22A I believe I was there for one year. 23~ You said Amhurst Wilder? 24A Yes. 25

12345678910111213141516171819

~

EXHIBIT 21


195

A Quarterly we'd do inspections of each unit tomake sure the smoke detector was working, to seeif there was any issues, or just responding. Wehad a maintenance staff that would respond toany complaints in each unit.

~ The maintenance staff, were they actualemployees of the ownership company?

A I don't remember.Q Were they from Wilder Foundation?A I think they were employed by Redeemer.Q Were they on site or did they have to come from

some other place?A They were on site.~ Did they have a caretaker in the building?A Yes.Q How many?A Two.Q Any security personnel at the building?A No,~ By that I mean that would be housed at the

building.A No.~ Did they have security staff that was

responsible for the exterior and the generalsecurity on the building?

££232425

193your answer is they had an application process 1 ~ How was that processed? Were they mailed toat the time you started work there as a property 2 you, delivered to you, that kind of a thing?manager. Correct? 3 A Yes.

A Yes. 4 Q So you didn't have to actually go to the unit~ ~ And then they had a credit check as part of 5 and collect the rent, did you?6 their application process for tenants. Correct? 6 A No.7 A Yes. 7 Q What type of tenants were housed in this8 ~ Then you think they did criminal backgrounds as 8 particular apartment complex?9 well at the time you started? 9 A Avariety, elderly, disabled, handicapped.10 A Yep. 10 Q Any other type of tenants other than elderly,11 ~ Did that screening process include anything else 11 disabled, or handicapped?12 at the time you started? 12 A Could have been.13 A It may have. I don't remember. 13 ~ What was the racial makeup of the tenant base14 ~ You were in charge of the screening once you 14 there at that complex during the time you worked15 took over the full-time position as property 15 there?16 manager. Correct? 16 A I don't remember. It was a variety of people.17 A Not in charge of, no. 17 Q So there was a mixture of races?18 ~ Did you have someone underneath you that did 18 A Absolutely.19 that process? 19 ~ Was there anyone particular race that was more20 A Yes, I did. 20 prevalent there as a tenant?21 Q Who was that? 21 A Not that stands out to me.22 A I don't remember her last name. Her first name 22 ~ You said you conducted inspections as well as23 was Charise. 23 taking rents and screening. Tell me a little24 Q So she was the person that was responsible for 24 bit about the inspection process that you had a~__s_c_re_e_nl_'n_g_3_t_t_ha_t_c_o_mp_l_eX_? --+_2_5 r_ol_e_in_as_a_p_ro_p_e_rt_y_m_a_na_g_er_, _

194 196A Correct. 1Q Prior to you joining the property manager 2

position there? 3A No. 4Q Did you hire her? 5A Yes, 6Q What was her background? 7A I don't recall. 8~ Was she full-time or part-time? 9A She was full-time. 10~ Did you train her? 11A She was trained by the Wilder Foundation. 12Q Why is it called Amhurst Wilder? Does Wilder 13

Foundation have some role in that property? 14A They were like a management company for 15

Redeemer's Lutheran Church. 16Q So they had trained her in how to do screening 17

of applicant tenants? 18A Correct. 19~ When you took over as a property manager, did 20

you learn that that screening process included 21criminal background checks of potential tenants? 22

A I don't remember. I think it did. 23~ Then you took rents you said? 24A Correct. 25

12345678910111213141516171819

~

12

f

EXHIBIT 21


~ County agency?A Yep.~ Any other ones you can think of?A Hearts and Hammers.~ Tell me about that.A It's a resource group for people that need

assistance with making repairs to their homes.Q Where are they located?A 11mnot sure.Q Are they in the metro area?A I believe so.~ How do you have contact with them?A We have a resource brochure that oftentimes I

will assist people with contacting, paintathonand different programs that we have.

~ Any other groups that you coordinate with inyour role as a code enforcement officer?

A Yes.~ Who is that?A I don't recall all the names.~ So the first part-time employment following your

joining code enforcement was -- you mentionedKing of Diamonds. Where are they located?

A River Road in Inver Grove Heights.Q How long ago did you start working there?

1~ 1~

A No. 1 Q How about any work with any organizations of anyQ And you worked at this apartment complex as a 2 nature during that five-year period as a code

property manager for about a year. Correct? 3 enforcenent officer?A Yes. 4 A Was I enployed by any agency? Is that what

::> Q And then you took the position with the police 5 you I re asking?6 dispatch? 6 ~ Working with any third party agency, not in7 A Yes. 7 necessarily a compensated fashion but working8 ~ Any other jobs, prior to taking the position 8 with, let's say, church groups or working with9 with the police dispatch, that you haven't told 9 charitable groups, that type of thing, between10 me about today? 10 2000 and 2005.11 A Net that I can remember. 11 A Personally or through employment?12 ~ Se now youlre a police dispatcher. That was a 12 ~ Just in any fashion.13 full-time position. Correct? 13 A Yeah, I deal with Ramsey County House Calls.14 A Yes. 14 That's one of the agencies I coordinate with.15 ~ How many hours did that involve on a weekly 15 ~ As an inspector you deal with them in16 basis? 16 coordination. Correct?17 A 40 plus. 17 A Correct.18 ~ Did you have any part-time positions with any 18 Q What other groups do you work with?19 third party employer or foundation or any type 19 A There's other agencies that I have coordinated20 of third party during the time you were a 20 with, Southern Metro Legal Services.21 dispatcher? 21 Q These are all in your role as a code inspector22 A Not that I can remember. 22 for the city. Correct?23 Q When you left the dispatch position, you took 23 A Correct.24 the position at code enforcement. Correct? 24 ~ Any other organizations that you've --~_A_Y_e_s. +-2_5__A_C_hi_l_d_p_ro_t_ec_t_i_on_,_a_d_ul_t_p_r_ot_e_c_ti_o_n. _

1~ ~O

Q Back with the Amhurst Wilder apartment complex 1as a full-time manager, did you have any 2part-time employment during that ti[e? 3

A I don't remember if that was the time when I was 4working part-time at Excel Energy and then just 5transferred to the police department or not. 6

Q So you may have been working part-time with 7Excel? 8

A Correct. 9~ You just don't recall? 10A Right. 11Q After moving to code enforcement, which was a 12

full-time position, have you had any part-time 13work since the 2000 time that you joined the 14ci:y code enforcement? 15

A Yes. 16~ Let's go chronologically. What was your first 17

part-time job after you took over the code 18enforcement role? 19

A I work for the King of Diamonds Nightclub. 20Q When did you start there? 21A About eight months to a year ago. 22~ Before we get to that, have you had any other 23

part-time work during the years 2000 to 2005? 24A No. 25

12

f

1234567891011121314151617181920rd.

232425 EXHIBIT 21


204~ Do you recall ever discussing the Rules and

Procedures that are identified here withMr. Dawkins at any time?

A I may have, but I don't recall a specificconversation.

~ Let's go to the second page. Do you seeMr. Dawkins' name at the bottom of the page asdirector of NHPI?

A Yes.Q Look at the top of the page, the first

paragraph. Can you read that aloud, please?A "There are two main reasons for having written

rules and procedures. First, to put everyone onnotice as to what the rules are and what isexpected for co[pliance. In other words, wewant the public to follow the rules."

~ Let me stop you right there. Do you agree withthat statement, the first statement, that is, toput everybody on notice as to what the rules areand what's expected for compliance?

A Makes sense.~ Do you think it makes sense to property owners

that the code officials have written rules sothat the property owner knows what's expected ofthem for compliance with the codes?

~1 ~

A Eight months to a year ago. 1 more time, let me know. I want you to identify~ What is your position? 2 the document, and I will have a few questionsA Operations manager. 3 for you on the document.~ What does that include? 4 A (Witness examining document).

o A I'm in charge of all the entertainers, security, 5 ~ Do you recognize Exhibit 2?6 bar and wait staff. 6 A I do.7 ~ Is that a part-time position? 7 ~ When is the first time you saw Exhibit 2?8 A Yes, it is. 8 A I don't recall the date.9 ~ How many hours do you work there a week? 9 ~ Could it have been sometime after August 1st,10 A 20 to 30. 10 2002 that's printed on the top of the first11 Q What is the nature of the King of Diamonds? Is 11 page?12 that a nightclub? 12 A Yes.13 A It's a totally nude gentleman's club. 13 ~ How did you get a copy of the Rules and14 ~ What road is that located on? 14 Procedures?15 A River Road. 15 A It was in my mailbox.16 Q Is there a liquor license for that establishment 16 ~ Other inspectors received the Rules and17 that you know of? 17 Procedures as well?18 A Yes, there is. 18 A I don't know.19 ~ Through the City of Inver Grove Heights? 19 ~ Did you ever talk with other inspectors about20 A Correct. 20 the Rules and Procedures?21 Q 20 to 30 hours a week you work down there? 21 A Not that I can remember.22 A Correct. 22 ~ What I'm referring to is this particular version23 Q What does the operations manager position also 23 here. You don't recall ever discussing the24 include? Anything else, other than what you 24 Rules and Procedures with any other inspector?~__m_e_nt_i_on_e_d? -+-2_5__A_N_O. _

\ 202A It's running operations. So it could be 1

bartending, waitressing. 2~ When you're there, are you the manager that's in 3

charge of the operations? 4A Yes, I am. 5~ Do you have a background in management of retail 6

businesses of any type? 7A Yes. 8~ What were they? 9A The hotel. 10~ So that's Ttlhere you got your first retail 11

experience? 12A Yes. 13~ Did you make any complaints to your union after 14

you learned that you were a defendant in the 15Steinhauser case? 16

A No. 17(Deposition Exhibit No. 2 was 18marked for identification.) 19

~ The court reporter marked Exhibit No.2. For 20the record, it's Bates 50082 running 21consecutively to 50093. At the top of the page 22is Department of Neighborhood Housing Property 23Improvement Rules and Procedures, August 1st, 242002. Take a look at that quickly. If you need 25

1234567891011121314151617181920r-t.t.232425

12

f

EXHIBIT 21


207

sometimes?A "Someti[es just a conversation with the property

owner can achieve quick compliance. 1I

~ Do you agree with that?A Yes.~ How often has that been your experience as a

code inspector since 2000?A Oftentimes.~ How about during the period that you were an

area inspector prior to becoming a problemproperty member? Was it oftentimes that aconversation with a property owner would achievequick compliance?

A Yes.~ Go to the next page, which is titled II, basic

rules regarding property exteriors. Do you seethat?

A Yes.~ Look at number 12 there. Do you see that

reference to no rodent infestation?A Yes.~ Had you looked at the basic rules here on this

particular page at any time after Mr, Dawkinsissued these rules?

A I may have. I don't remember specifically going

~~

232425

12

f'

205A Sure. 1 duplexes.~ Then start where it says second. Would you read 2 ~ Do you believe that, during the period of 2000

that aloud? 3 forward as a code inspector, that you had theA "Second, our goal is to have consistent 4 authority to issue orders for correcting the

~ application of the rules by our staff so the 5 exteriors of pUblicly owned properties?6 public knoNs what to expect if the rules are not 6 A It's possible. I don't recall if I have ever7 followed. In other words, we want our housing 7 done that or not.8 code inspectors to follow these rules." 8 ~ I'm not asking if you've ever done it. My9 ~ With regard to the second statement here about 9 question is whether or not you believed, during10 consistent application of the rules by the 10 the period of 2000 to 2005, that you had the11 staff, did you ever have any discussion with 11 authority to issue orders to the Public Housing12 Mr. Dawkins at any time wherein he said that he 12 Authority on their properties?13 wanted the inspectors, including yourself, to 13 A I guess I never thought about it.14 consistently apply the codes across the City of 14 ~ Do you recall an inspection of the interior of15 St. Paul? 15 any PHA single family home at any time while16 A Not that I can recall. 16 you I ve been an employee of the city?17 ~ Are you saying that you recalled at one time or 17 A No.18 you just don I t recall today? 18 ~ Look down here about the fourth paragraph, last19 A As far as where it says consistently enforce, 19 sentence on Bates 50083, Ms. Martin. The last20 think each case is different. This is a 20 sentence there starts with sometimes. Can you21 guideline, 21 read that aloud?22 ~ But his introduction here, you would agree that 22 A I don I t see it, John.23 consistent application of the rules by the staff 23 ~ The fourth paragraph down on Bates 50083 where24 is an important policy to be upheld by the code 24 it says Roman number I, Introduction. It starts~__l_'n_sp_e_c_to_r_s_i_n_t_h_e_c_it_y_,_d_o_y_o_u_n_o_t?_, -+2_5 on_th_e_Ie_f_t-_h_a_nd_s_id_e_,_t_he_l_as_t_s_e_n_te_n_ce_, _

206 208A Consistent as possible depending on each case, 1

yes. 2~ So you think there's an exception to what 3

Mr. Dawkins stated here in this second goal? 4A I think there is an exception in every case. 5~ Do you believe that written rules are better 6

than unwritten rules from the standpoint of a 7homeowner's expectation as to what the city 8wants of them regarding their property? 9

A Can you repeat the question? 10~ If you were a homeoNner, would you rather have 11

written rules or unwritten rules as it related 12to the condition of your property and what was 13expected of you? 14

A Written rules. 15~ Why is that? 16A I think it gives a clear expectation. 17~ So you know what is expected of you as a home- 18

owner? 19A Correct. 20Q Now, the jurisdiction or that is the authority 21

that you have as a code inspector, do you 22believe that thatls limited to just privately 23owned homes in the City of St. Paul? 24

A I know that I enforce single family and 25

12345678910111213141516171819

~

EXHIBIT 21


20912

f'

211through every single one. But I have seen them, 1 A Either the garage or the house or possibly both.yes. 2 I don't remember.

~ Have you ever been by Mr. Dawkins' 767 3 ~ Tell me a little bit about the property layoutUniversity property at any time? 4 there.

~ A I'm not sure which location that is. 5 A It looked like he had a fence around it or6 ~ The one up on University that Mr. Dawkins had a 6 something. There was a garage or two in the7 law practice in. 7 back, I believe. It looked like a residential8 A Yes. 8 home.9 ~ Does that ring a bell to you? 9 ~ So a residential home structure with a garage in10 A Yes, it does. 10 the back?11 ~ Have you been by that property at any time? 11 A One or two, yeah.12 A Yes. 12 ~ And a fence?13 ~ When was the first time you went by that 13 A Yep.14 property? 14 ~ Do you remember anything at all that stood out15 A I was involved in a sweep in that area. 15 other than possibly needing some roof work?16 ~ When was that? 16 A No.17 A I don't recall. 17 ~ Did you feel that orders should have been18 ~ Was it after Mr. Dawkins became a director in 18 written for Mr. Dawkins on what you observed19 2002? 19 there?20 A Yes. 20 A Yes.21 ~ How long after he became a director? 21 ~ Do you think that Mr. Singerhaus wrote up what22 A I really don 't know. 22 was a fair listing of the code violations that23 ~ Was it the first year that he was a director 23 you observed?24 that you were involved in a sweep near that 24 A I don't recall looking at what Mr. Singerhaus~__p_r_op_e_rt_y_? ---i1-2_5 wr_o_te_up_. _

210 21212345678910111213141516171819

~\

(.~

232425

A It was when orders were issued. I'm not surethe date. I don't have the file.

~ Orders were issued on Mr. Dawkins' property?A Yes.~ As a result of the sweep?A Correct.~ Who was the inspector that was responsible for

that?A I was with Inspector Rich Singerhaus.~ So you were with Mr. Singerhaus doing a sweep

through the area of Mr. Dawkins' 767 Universityproperty?

A Yes.~ Did you observe the conditions that were the

subject of the orders -A Yes.~ -- to Mr. Dawkins?A Yes.~ What were the conditions you observed?A I don't recall. If you have the file, I could

look at it.~ Do you have any recollection as to the condition

of his property?A I believe it was a roof.~ Aroof on what type of a structure?

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

~ Did you have a discussion with Mr. Singerhausabout writing up the director of codeenforcement prior to issuing the orders on theproperty?

A We may have. I don't recall the exactdiscussion we had.

~ Was there anything that stood out in your mindthat the two of you were doing with regard todirectors' property where you were observingcode violations?

A No. We didn't treat anybody's property anydifferently.

~ Just because it was a director, you were goingto issue the orders?

A Correct.Q l'1hy is that?A Because that's what our job is. That's what we

are paid to do.~ In other words, officials in the City of

St. Paul, whether they are director of codeenforcement or a city councilmernber, theirproperty should be subject to the same codes aseveryone else. Right?

A Absolutely.~ Does that include if a building official or aEXHIBIT 21


A At times.~ At some point after you've applied the Rules and

Procedures over a period of time, you probablyhad some recollection as to what the time periodthat was allowed. Correct?

A Correct.~ So you wouldn't have to go and look at the rules

in order to determine the timeline. Right?A Correct.~ For example, with regard to garbage violations

there, it lists four days. So after you issueda number of orders, you know at some point thatit's a four day allotted period for thehomeowner. Correct?

A Correct.~ Do you see the vermin and/or pest harborage

infestation listed there?A Yes.G) It lists that timelines for work is four days.A Right.~ Did you provide four days for Mr. Steinhauser to

take care of the apparent pest problems that hehad in his properties at 910-6th Street and 1024Euclid that you inspected?

A I don't recall. lid have to look at the file.

12

f

213 215city councilmember's home has chipped paint, you 1 I was asking whether you would apply the codeswould apply the code ordinances to the city 2 in a uniform manner to a privately ownedofficial's home that has chipped paint just like 3 property versus a property that's owned by ayou would with a private resident? 4 pUblic official that is using it as their home?

~ A I would have to actually look at the home to see 5 A Yes.6 what the condition of it is. 6 ~ So if it's Mr. Dawkins' private home and you go7 ~ Exactly. But if you had the same or similar 7 down the street to another private home, you're8 conditions on an official's home as you had on a 8 going to apply the codes evenly to both of those9 private home, it's your testimony that you would 9 private homes?10 apply the code consistently to both of those 10 A Yes.11 types of properties. Is that right? 11 ~ Whether they are owned by a public official or12 A If there's just a piece of peeling paint versus 12 whether they are owned by a private individual.13 most of the home has peeling paint, then, yes, I 13 Right?14 would write up orders. 14 A Yes.15 ~ My question is: If the homes had code 15 ~ Turn to the next page, if you would, which is16 deficiencies where you were going to write up a 16 50085, Ms. Martin, timelines to complete work.17 privately owned home and the same conditions 17 Do you see that?18 existed on a public official's home, would you 18 A Yes.19 apply the code and write up a public official's 19 ~ Have you ever looked at the timelines on the20 home just like you did with a private home? 20 Rules and Procedures that Mr. Dawkins put in21 A Absolutely. 21 place at any tine after he issued the Rules and22 ~ Is that so that you would n:eet Mr. Dawkins' goal 22 Procedures?23 of consistently applying the rules by the code 23 A Yes.24 staff across the city? 24 ~ Did you refer to those on a frequent basis in

fA_A_I_do_n_'_t_k_no_w_w_h_at_h_is_in_t_e_nt_wa_s_fo_r_t_h_a_t. -+-2_5 yo_u_r_r_o_le_as_a_c_o_de_i_ns_p_ec_t_o_r? _

214 216~ We talked about that earlier. One of his goals 1

was to have the code enforcement officers 2consistently apply the codes across the city. 3Do you recall that? You can look at it if you 4want. 5

A Yes. 6~ So your applying the code to public officials' 7

homes like you apply it to private homes woald 8meet that goal of consistency, would it not? 9

A Yes. 10MS. SEEBA: For the record, you're 11

talking about a privately owned public 12official's home, right, John? 13

MR. SHOE~AKER: I'm talking about 14any home or property that's owned by a public 15official. 16

MS. SEEBA: It's going to be 17confusing on the record. You're saying public 18official's home versus a private home. They're 19still private homes. You're not talking about a 20state owned or publicly owned home, are you? 21

MR. SHOEMAKER: No. Let me just 22clarify the record. 23

~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Ms. Martin, have 24you, in answering my questions, understood that 25

1234567891011121314151617181920r"

e:.t!.

232425

.:-, .5i .6. MsJ. .... M.C.XI.W ..c.hi..,g.h (. ~ , U,Miwam..$i. . @QMMMhrs:;::::m;:::

EXHIBIT 21


219

LL.

232425

217~ But you would have applied the Rules and 1 to the date you're going to reinspect the

Procedures to any vermin or pest harborage or 2 property?infestation that you observed on any city home 3 A So that there's compliance.during the time that you were a code inspector. 4 ~ Is the compliance date always the date of the

:> Correct? 5 reinspect ion?6 A As I previously stated, these are guidelines. 6 A Not necessarily.7 So that may not have been the number of days 7 ~ So you could require a compliance date that's8 that were given. 8 earlier than your coming back to reinspect?9 ~ If it was a severe infestation, you may have 9 A If I have given verbal orders, it could be10 reduced the time period for compliance? 10 different, yes.11 A It I s possible. 11 ~ Where you have a correction notice to a12 ~ When else would you have reduced the number of 12 homeowner where you list out the deficiencies13 days from four days? 13 you've observed at the property and you expect14 A I would have to have specifics. I don't know. 14 written -- you expect compliance by a certain15 ~ So you can't recall whether or not or what would 15 date that you're going to reinspect, itls16 be required before you would reduce the number 16 important, is it not, to get that notice to the17 of days of four allotted here under the 17 property owner so that they can comply by the18 timelines to complete work for vermin or pest 18 reinspection date?19 harborage or infestations? 19 A The notice or verbal, yes.20 A Correct. 20 ~ Let's turn to the next page, if you would, to21 ~ Look down underneath the first asterisks there. 21 when do we tag, 50086. And paragraph 4, would22 Do you see underneath the timelines? 22 you read that aloud, please?23 A Yes. 23 A "When the SUbject property or another property24 ~ Read the second sentence, if you would, aloud, 24 of your's has been determined to be a problem~__p_l_ea_s_e_,_w_he_r_e_i_t_s_t_ar_t_s_w_i_th_fl_'r_s_t. ---it-2_5 pr_o_pe_r_t_y,_we_w_il_l_is_s_ue_ta_g_s_r_e_9a_r_d_le_s_s_o_f_t_he__

218 220A "First, the law requires us to give the proper 1 past history or compliance. Aproblem property

owner a reasonable amount of time to complete 2 can be defined as when there are both buildingthe work depending upon the seriousness or 3 maintenance issues and nuisance behaviordanger of the situation. II 4 issues."

~ So is your understanding that when you make an 5 ~ So that's the definition of the Neighborhoodobservation as a code inspector, the law 6 Housing and Property Improvement Office as ofrequires you to give written notice or some type 7 August 1st, 2002, of what constituted a problemof notice to the homeowner about the deficiency 8 property. Correct?that you've observed. Correct? 9 A I'm not sure what the question is.

A To give notice, yes. 10 ~ The question is: If you're looking at these~ And the notice is not only required by the law 11 rules as a code inspector, does this provide you

but doesn't it make sense that if you're going 12 as of August 1st, 2002 what's the officialto expect compliance from a homeowner that they 13 definition of your department as to whatneed to know what you have observed and claimed 14 constitutes a problem property?as a deficiency? 15 A Where are you showing the definition for problem

A Yes. 16 property?~ Do you typically have deadlines contained within 17 ~ Look at number 4. You just read it. Doesn I t it

your correction notices that provide notice to 18 define the definition of problem property?the homeowner as to when you're going to 19 A No. This is defining when a tag would bereinspect the property? 20 issued.

A Typically, yes. 21 ~ Doesn I t it use the phrase problem property?~ Why is it that you give a notice as to the date 22 A Yes.

you're going to reinspect the property? 23 ~ Doesn't it say it's defined as?A I'm sorry. What was the question? 24 MS. SEEBA: I object and say the~ Why do you give the notice to the homeowner as 25 document speaks for itself. If you have a

12

f

1234567891011121314151617181920r-

SiQi ago, tt iQ.I.6t3Wd ('(. ."OS i itt (WraMA,SEXHIBIT 21


the record.A I can't answer that. I don't have a copy of the

web page in front of me.~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) The definition

that's listed here on Bate 50086, it was yourunderstanding that if a property had bothbuilding maintenance issues and nuisancebehavior issues, then that would be taggedwithout any kind of prior notice. Is thatright?

A That's what it says on here. However, as Istated previously, this is a guideline.

Q Did you understand Mr. Dawkins implemented asystem by which if a landlord had more than oneproperty and that one property was classified asa problem property as set forth here, that ifthere was any kind of a code violation on theother property, that could also be hit with acriminal tag?

A No.~ Wasn't it your understanding that once a

landlord had one property on the problemproperty list, that the inspectors had authorityon any of the other properties of that landlordto issue immediate criminal tags if there was a

L.~

232425

221 223question other than reading something verbatim, 1 A Something to the effect that you'd know it whenplease ask it. 2 you see it. He'd have more information. I

~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Ms. Martin, does 3 guess I'd have to see the web page.the document that we have identified as the 4 ~ So a property owner that's living next to a so-

o official rules of the Department of Housing 5 called problem property would know it when they6 Property Improvement, does it not give you a 6 see it? Is that what you're referring to as the7 definition of what a problem property is in 7 definition that was on the web site?8 number 4 on Bates 50086? 8 A I'd have to look at what it said on the web9 A It doesn't clearly say that that's wt.at the 9 page, but that was Andy's definition.10 definition is. It says it can be defined as. 10 Q I think he indicated that repeated calls11 Q So you're saying that this is not a limitation 11 regarding behavior and trash and other things.12 of what a problem property could in fact be 12 Is that what you recall was his definition of13 defined as? 13 you'll know it when you see it?14 A Yes. 14 A That could be part of it.15 ~ So are you saying that this definition here is 15 Q So do you think that that's a fairly definitive16 only as it relates to your ability to issue 16 definition of what a problem property is from17 criminal misdemeanor housing tags on properties? 17 the standpoint of giving notice to the public?18 A That's the way I'm reading it, yes. 18 MS. SEEBA: What is?19 ~ So can you find in this document where another 19 MR. SHOEMAKER: The definition that20 definition of a problem property is that a 20 she referred to on the web site that21 homeowner, during the period of August 1st, 2002 21 Mr. Dawkins had created and gave notice to the22 and moving forward, would have a written 22 public.23 definition other than this definition of what a 23 MS. SEEBA: Objection, form and24 problem property constituted? 24 foundation. She doesn't have the definition in~ M_S_._SE_E_BA_:_A_r_e_y_ou_as_k_i_ng_ab_o_ut_a__-f-2_5 f_ro_n_t_o_f_h_e_r._I_wa_n_t_t_h_at_to_be_re_f_le_c_te_d_l_'n__

222 224written definition in this document or any 1written definition? 2

MR. SHOEMAKER: No. In this 3document, the rules. If she needs to take a few 4minutes, I want her to look at it. 5

MS. SEEBA: Let's take a break. 6I've got a phone call. I need to return it. 7

~IR. SHOEMAKER: Let's take five. 8(Brief recess, 2:50-2:56). 9

Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) We were talking 10about Exhibit 2, Ms. Martin. The page we were 11on was 50086, when do we tag. The question I 12had for you, Ms. Martin, was whether or not the 13rules of August 1st, 2002, prepared by 14Mr. Dawkins of your department, had any other 15definition of a problem property other than on 1650086 that we talkei about. 17

A I believe number 4, where you are referring to 18the problem property definition, that's 19referring to when do we tag. I don't believe 20that that is the definition for the problem 21property. I believe on the web page Mr. Dawkins 22defined what is a problem property. 23

~ What was your recollection of that definition on 24Mr. Dawkins' web page for the city? 25

12

f

12345678910111213141516171819

~

EXHIBIT 21


225 227

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

A As I stated, I understand what it says here.However, again, this is a guideline. That's notnecessarily what happened.

Q Did you ever have conversations with Mr. Dawkinswhere he indicated a certain landlord had oneproblem property or more and there was aproperty in question that was not considered byyour depart~ent to be a problem property. YetMr. Dawkins said go out and issue criminal tagson this other property?

A Do you have a specific address?Q I just want to know if you ever heard him say

that.A No.Q Do you remember the Steven Mark situation, where

a landlord by the name of Steven Mark complainedthat his property had not had any prior noticeby the code inspector but yet he was hit with acriminal tag on the property?No.Let's turn over to Bates 50088, Extensions.Have you given extensions to homeowners at anytine since you started work as a code inspec:orin 2000?

A Yes.

"£'232425

1 violation? 1 Q rlhen have you given extensions to homeowners,2 A That is not my understanding. 2 under what circumstances?~ Q Whhat was

lYOdulr und~rhstandli~glOf it, wt.~re YOhU 43 A E1ach

kcaseris dl

l'dffe

treInIt. SOhHrr had a file tor' ave a an ord Wlt mu tlP e propertles, were 00 at, cou e you wy gave an

o he has one or two properties that are problem 5 extension to a particular address.6 properties but the remainder of the portfolio is 6 Q Let's look at the rules here. Don't these7 not considered to be problem properties? 7 provide guidance to you, as of August 1st, 20028 A Like I stated earlier, I have had plenty of Ray 8 as an inspector if you were going to make a9 and Katie Hessler's properties, but that doesn't 9 determination on a request for an extension?10 mean I have been to every single one of their 10 A Yes, these are the guidelines.11 properties. 11 Q Did you review these guidelines any time after12 Q That's not my question. My question was: Did 12 the rules were issued in August of 2002?13 you understand, at the time Mr. Dawkins 13 A Yes.14 implemented the problem property system in yeur 14 Q How many times did you review the particular15 office, that if one property was considered to 15 provision on when you were granted authority to16 be a problem property, then the department could 16 issue extensions on code issues?17 issue tags regardless of the prior h:story on 17 A I don't recall how many times.18 any of the properties owned by that landlord? 18 Q Isn't one of the extension reasons here -- I19 A No. 19 should say reasons for granting extensions an20 Q Isn't that what it says here? 20 inability by the homeowner to comply with the21 A Where? 21 code notice because of weather?22 Q Well, it says "when the subject property or 22 A Where are you seeing that?23 another property of your's has been determined 23 Q ~umber 2 near the top of the page.24 to be a problem property, we will issue tags 24 A That's what it says.~__r_e_9a_r_d_Ie_s_s_o_f...;.p_a_st_hi_s_to_r_y_?'_1 --1f-2_5__Q__SO_do.....;;.y_ou_re_c_a_ll.....;;.g1_'v_i_n9;.....-ex_t_e_ns_i_on_s_t_o_ho_m_eo_w_ne_r_s_

226 228for their compliance with your orders because ofan inability to comply due to the weather?

A I may have. I don't recall.Q You don't remember any specifics?A No.Q How about an issue where a homeowner could not

get a contractor because contractors were busyand the homeowner needed an extension. Did thatever happen to you?

A It may have.Q So a homeowner may have asked you for an

extension because they said a contractor was toobusy and they could not get their work done?

A Yes.Q As you sit here today, do you believe that that

would be a valid reason for granting anextension to a homeowner?

A Sure.Q How about with regard to where an order is

issued on a property's exterior in the latefall. So the weather conditions from thestandpoint of the temperature and also from thestandpoint of, let's say, snow would not allowthe homeowner to do, let's say, painting or anyexterior work? Would you grant an extension

12345678910111213141516171819

fO'~

EXHIBIT 21


231229into the spring? 1 maintaining a property. Correct?

A It's possible. It depends on what the 2 A Right.circumstances are. 3 ~ But what about a professional state of repair?

~ Do you know anything about how a property can be 4 Are you using that term from the standpoint ofo painted during the wintertime in the state of 5 how a repair is done on a property?6 Minnesota? 6 A I guess I don't understand your question.7 A No. 7 ~ If you went and observed a repair that had been8 ~ Do you think it's physically possible to do 8 done by a homeowner or a contractor and you9 that? 9 said, well, that wasn't done professionally,10 A To paint when? 10 i1hat would you be referring to?11 ~ An exterior of the home during the winter in 11 A I guess I would need a particular situation. I12 Minnesota. 12 can't recall anything.13 A No. 13 ~ 11hat would be the basis for your saying that14 ~ It cannot be done, can it? 14 repairs have to be done in a professional15 A No. 15 manner? Where would you look for that source of16 ~ Do you have any understanding as to what type of 16 authority versus just having a repair done,17 physical conditions, weather conditions, are 17 period?18 necessary in order to properly paint the 18 A I believe that's part of the macros when we fill19 exterior of a home? 19 out a form. I believe that's part of the20 A Well, you obviously want warmer weather. 20 correction notice.21 ~ Do you also need to have the exterior of the 21 ~ Right. That the repairs -- any repairs that22 property dried out sufficiently to do the work? 22 have to be done that you've observed23 A That would make sense, yes. 23 deficiencies in have to be done in a24 ~ In other words, to prep the exterior of a 24 professional state?~__p_r_op_e_r_ty_,_Y_O_U_'d_ne_e_d_t_o_P_O_SS_i_b_ly_re_m_ov_e_th_e ...2_5__A__co_r_re_c_t_. _

230 232

12

f

1 ~ What does that mean to the homeowner? Have you2 ever had discussions with them as to what that3 means?4 A No.5 ~ How does the homeowner know what is a6 professional repair in your eyes?7 MS. SEEBA: Objection, form and8 foundation.9 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Have you talked to10 them about what is necessary from a standpoint11 of, let's say, exterior painting that would rise12 to the level of a professional repair?13 A I guess I don't recall any homeowner as king me14 to define that for them.15 ~ Do you remember telling the repairman at Sandy16 Harrilal's home that the repairs that were being17 done there were not in a professional manner?18 A No, I don't recall that.19 ~ But you have used the phrase professional state20 of repair. Correct?21 A It's part of our correction notice, yes. These22 are form letters that get sent out.23 ~ From a standpoint of the painting scenario, what24 is your understanding as to how a professional25 paint job would be or have to be applied to an

exterior paint. Correct?A Correct, or you could tarp it off, yes.~ Scrape the paint is a part of redoing the

outside of a property from the standpoint ofpainting, is it not?

A Possibly.~ If you want to do a professional job, a

homeowner or contractor is going to try toscrape the exterior of the siding and thenpaint. Correct?

A It depends on each case.~ If you were wanting a homeowner to do a

professional job, what would you expect thehomeowner to do from a standpoint of paintingtte exterior of a property?

MS. SEEBA: Objection, foundation.~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you request

homeowners to do their repairs or have theirrepairs done in a professional state of repair?Yes.Define that for me.Professional state of maintenance is basica:lywhere there's no holes, there's no peelingpaint.

~ That would be a professional state of

t.t.232425

1234567891011121314151617181920 Ar'~

A

EXHIBIT 21


23512

~~

233exterior of a property? Do you know what that 1 out into a community, do you not?entails? 2 A Yes.

MS. SEEBA: Foundation. 3 ~ As an inspector and you issue orders to(Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Have you ever done 4 homeowners. Correct?

o any painting on an exterior of a property? 5 A Yes.6 A No. 6 ~ hnd you don't have any recollection as to how7 ~ Has your husband ever done any painting on an 7 often you've required homeowners in the City of8 exterior of a property? 8 St. Paul to paint the exterior of their9 A I don't know. 9 properties?10 ~ So with the maintenance work that you've done 10 A No.11 that you have testified to this morning, you 11 ~ You can't tell me if it's a few times?12 never had any painting experience on exteriors 12 A It could be 30 times.13 of properties? 13 ~ It could be 3, 000 times?14 A No. I hire people. 14 A Could be.15 ~ How about with regards to your training and 15 ~ But you don't have any recollection as to the16 employment and occupation, have you ever done 16 frequency that you've required homeowners to17 any painting on the interiors of properties? 17 paint the exterior of their houses?18 A Yes. 18 A Yes.19 ~ What did you determine was necessary from a 19 ~ And that's the case since 2000. Is that right?20 standpoint of a professional state of paintir:g 20 A Correct.21 an interior? You had to prep the walls. 21 ~ Is it your understanding, however, that a22 Correct? 22 homeowner cannot paint the exterior of their23 A Yes. 23 property during the cold months in the state of24 ~ And you had to make sure the walls were clean. 24 Minnesota?~__R_i9_h_t? i-2_5_A_Y_e_s_. _

234 236~ Is it your understanding as well, having your

experience and your background and yourexperience as a code inspector up to 2003,including 2003, that a homeowner would not beable to paint the exterior of their house ifthere was extremely wet conditions in thespring?

A Depends on what month you're looking at.~ What if it was extremely rainy throughout the

spring, would you require a homeowner tocomplete a repaint or some type of paintingproject on the exterior of their home?

A It depends on each case.~ Let's look at Mr. Steinhauser's property.

Remember the two York properties that you issuedcriminal housing tags on in the summer of 2004?

A Somewhat, yes.~ You're the one that issued the two criminal

misdemeanor tags for failure to comply with yourorders to paint the exterior of his house.Correct?

A I believe so. I'd have to look at the file.~ You don't have any recollection that you issued

Mr. Steinhauser two criminal tags in the summerof 2004?

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

A Yes.~ And then you had to apply the paint and allow

the paint to dry?A Correct.~ Isn't that the same application process that you

apply to an exterior of a property, prep thesiding, and then make sure you've got the basecoats on and then the final coat and allow it todry?

MS. SEEBA: Foundation.~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Is that right? Is

that your understanding as a code inspector?A I'n not a painter, but that makes sense.~ How many times have you required homeowners in

the City of St. Paul to paint the exterior oftheir houses?

A I don't know.~ Is it a frequent code deficiency that you note

to homeowners?I don't recall.Do you recall if it's infrequent that yourequire homeowners to paint their houses?

A As I stated, I don't know how many I've orderedto paint houses.

~ Well, you do this on a daily basis where you go

~L

232425

1234567891011121314151617181920 Ar~

EXHIBIT 21


239237A Yes, I do. 1 A No. That's why I said I'd like to look at theQ Well, let's talk about your recollection of that 2 file.

event. What do you recall being the nature of 3 ~ So do you remember having any conversations withthe housing code violations that you observed in 4 Ms. Moerrr.ond at the time that you or just prior

~ the fall of 2003 on Mr. Steinhauser's York 5 to your issuing the criminal tags to6 properties? 6 Hr. Steinhauser on 915 and 921 York?7 A All I recall on those properties is he was 7 A No, I don't recall that.8 supposed to do some painting. I think there was 8 ~ You don't recall any discussions with her but9 a time line given. I don't think he met that 9 you recall Mr. Dawkins directing you to go out10 guidance. And I asked Andy Dawkins how he'd 10 and issue criminal tags on Mr. Steinhauser's 91511 like me to proceed and I was directed by Andy 11 and 921 York properties?12 Dawkins to tag him. 12 A Absolutely. And I believe I noted that in the13 Q Let's go back to the fall of 2003. You observed 13 file.14 sone exterior code violations on the properties 14 Q When you made the observations in the spring15 of Mr. Steinhauser located at the York Avenue 15 that Mr. Steinhauser had been unable to comply16 property address. Correct? 16 with your orders on the exterior of his two York17 A I believe so. I'd have to look at my notes. 17 properties, did you send him a subsequent18 Q 721 and 715 York Avenue, is that what you 18 notice, do you believe?19 recall? 19 A I don't remember.20 A Again, like I said, I need to look at my notes. 20 ~ At some point there was an extension request21 Q But, generally, you recall issuing exterior code 21 that was granted by the city so he'd have a22 deficiency notices to Mr. Steinhauser. Correct? 22 little more time. Correct?23 A Yes. 23 A I'd have to look at the file. I don't know.24 ~ You went through the winter with an extension to 24 ~ tihy did you issue criminal orders? Strike that.~__M_r_._S_te_i_n_ha_u_se_r_t_o_g_e_t_t_he_wo_r_k_d_o_ne_un_t_i_l_t_he__-+-2_5 Wh_y_d_i_d_M_r_._D_aw_k_in_s_w_a_n_t_y_ou_to_is_s_ue_c_ri_m_in_a_l__

238 240

12

f

1 orders to Mr. Steinhauser?2 A I can't answer that.3 ~ What did he say to you?4 A I asked him what I should do, that the time line5 has lapsed, how would you like me to proceed.6 He said to send a citation.7 ~ Acitation on each property?8 A Yes.9 ~ What did you tell Mr. Dawkins before he said10 send a citation on each of the properties?11 A I don't remember the exact conversation.12 Q Wasn't the discussion with Mr. Dawkins shortly13 following Mr. Steinhauser's filing of the14 federal case where he named you as a defendant15 and Mr. Dawkins as a defendant?16 A It's possible.17 Q So the case was filed in May of 2004 and the18 criminal tags were issued early June of 2004.19 Is that what you recall?20 A Something like that. I don't know the exact21 dates.22 Q Did you read any extension requests that23 Mr. Steinhauser's attorney had made for further24 time to comply with your orders on 915 and 92125 York during the May and June of 20041

next spring?A I don't recall. I'd have to look at my notes.~ Let the record reflect that the property

addresses were 915 and 921. Does that ring abell to you?

A Yes.~ 915 and 921 York?A I know they were on York.Q Okay. But you recall that there was an

extension given to Mr. Steinhauser in the springso that he could have some additional time toget the work done. Correct?

A I know there was an extension. I don't knowwhat the time frame was.

Q And then did you learn at some point thatMs. Moermond from the legislative hearing officedenied a second request by Mr. Steinhauser andhis attorney for an extension to complete yourorders?I would have to look at the file.And the same day you went out and issued thecriminal tags against Mr. Steinhauser, that isthe same day as Ms. Moermond denied theextension request. Does that ring a bell toyou?

d.232425

12345678910111213141516171819

r~

EXHIBIT 21


241 243

244and compare that to the Roman numeral II, basicrules regarding property exteriors, the thirdpage of the exhibit. Go back to 50084. Do yousee on 50084 where it says, no rodentinfestation is a basic rule? Correct?

A That's what it says.Q Then on page 50091 it uses -- the rules use,

quote, severe rodent and pest infestation.Correct?

A That's what it says.Q What is your understanding as of August 2002 as

to what your ability was as a code inspector todo on a property if there was merely a rodentinfestation versus a severe rodent and pestinfestation?

A On 0084 it says no rodent infestation. This onesays severe rodent and pest infestation.

Q Is it your understanding that the basic rule forproperty owners in the City of St. Paul, as ofAugust 2002, was that the city was not going toallow a rodent infestation in a property?

A Yes.Q If a property then had a severe rodent

infestation, then the city was allowed theauthority under the rules to actually condemn a

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

A Everything that -- Andy Dawkins had lots ofdifferent ideas. And what he put together herefor Rules and Procedures was merely a guidelinefor us to go by. We had our own discretion toutilize to give extensions or lessen the time.

Q Did you have a discussion with Mr. Magner aboutthe York properties that we just talked aboutprior to the time that you issued criminal tagsto Mr. Steinhauser?

A I may have. I don't remember.Q I have seen the letter from Marcia Moermond to

Mr. Steinhauser and his attorney. It was copiedto you and to Mr. Magner, and the same day youissued the criminal tag. Do you recall anydiscussion with Mr. Magner about whether or notthe criminal tag should be issued toMr. Steinhauser on each of his York properties?

A As I stated, I talked to Mr. Dawkins whodirected me to write the citation. When Iturned my file in, it goes to my supervisor,Mr. Magner. I may have had a conversation withhim. I don't recall.

Q Prior to Hr. Dawkins coming on board, what wasit like to work in the code enforcement officefor you as an inspector?

1 A I may have. 1 A What do you mean?2 Q Who would have shown those to you? 2 Q What was it like? Can you describe what it was~ A I don't kno~ without the file. I usually note 3 like to be a code inspector prior tof" stuff in the file. 4 Mr. Dawkins?

~ Q If the letters were shown to Ms. Moermond or 5 A I guess 11mnot sure what you're referring to.6 were sent to Ms. Moermond, would she, as a 6 Q Let's turn it around. After Mr. Dawkins got7 matter of course, have given those letters to 7 there, what changed for you as a code inspector?8 you since you were the inspector on the file? 8 A I was handling just problem properties versus9 A Possibly. 9 having an area.10 Q But you don't have any independent recollection 10 Q Anything else change for you?11 of whether you talked with Hs. Moermond about 11 A Not that stands out.12 that? 12 Q Did your work load go up?13 A No. 13 A Not necessarily.14 Q Do you believe whether records indicate that it 14 Q Did Mr. Dawkins ever institute any type of a15 was extremely rainy through the May a:ld June 15 quota system whereby you had to produce a16 2004 time frame and Mr. Steinhauser had, in 16 certain number of field finds on a daily or17 fact, made a request for a second extension, 17 weekly basis?18 that a second extension should have been given 18 A Never.19 to him? 19 Q Let I s turn to the next page, 50091, which is20 A Like I said, without seeing the file, I don't 20 when do we condemn abuilding. If you can, take21 know when he first received the orders, how long 21 a look at that, Ms. Martin.22 he's had to comply with the orders. Without 22 A (Witness examining document).23 seeing the actual file, I don I t know. 23 Q What I want you to do there is compare the24 Q You mentioned a guideline. What is a guideline? 24 language regarding the fourth line down where it~ Where do you get that phrase from? 25 says, quote, severe rodent and pest infestation,C·,···· .... -----------+-----------

24212345678910111213141516171819

~d.232425 EXHIBIT 21


245 247123r

building. Correct? 1 ~ Did you believe, at that time in the fall ofA Yes. 2 2002, that you had the discretion as an~ But if it wasn't to the level of a severe rodent 3 inspector to condemn a home for rodent

infestation, then what was your understanding? 4 infestation?:l A It depends on your definition of severe rodent 5 A Do I have the discretion, yes.6 infestation. 6 ~ I'm not saying now. I'm saying in the fall of7 ~ It's not my definition. These are the rules 7 2002, did you believe you had the discretion as8 that were prepared by Mr. Dawkins, your 8 a code inspector in the fall of 2002 to condemn9 director. Isn't that correct? 9 a property for rodent infestation?10 A Right, and it says no rodent infestation in 10 A Yes. And ultimately the decision once the11 0084. 11 paperwork is turned in, the supervisor makes the12 ~ Right. And that doesn't allow you to condemn 12 final call.13 the property under those basic rules, does it? 13 ~ So that's different from if you had a severe14 A Again, they're guidelines. I don I t believe I 14 infestation. Is that what you believe?15 have ever condemned a home just based on 15 A I don't know the difference between a severe16 rodents. 16 rodent infestation or a regular rodent17 ~ But would you agree that a homeowner looking at 17 infestation.18 this on Bate 50084 where it says, no rodent 18 Q As you sit here today, you don't know the19 infestation and then looking to the next page 19 difference?20 where there's four days allowed to remove the 20 A No.21 infestation, the homeowner would believe that 21 ~ In the fall of 2002, did you know the difference22 they would be notified of the infestation and 22 between a rodent infestation and a severe rodent23 would be allowed to correct the infestation? 23 infestation?24 Isn't that what a reasonable homeowner would 24 A Again, it's interpretation, no.~ de_t_erm_in_e_f_r_om_lO_O_k1_'n_g_a_t_t_h_es_e_r_u_le_s_? 1-25__~_Th_a_t_'s_a_y_es_or_n_o. _

246 2481234567891011121314151617181920rLL232425

MS. SEEBA: Objection, foundation.A I'd be speculating. I don't know what a

homeowner would think.~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) You have contact

with the pUblic on a frequent basis, do you not,as a code inspector?

A Yes.~ So can you determine from the rules here if you

had a home in St. Paul when a property that hadrodent infestation, when it would rise to thelevel of the inspector being able to condemn it?

A Again, I think that's where you have leniencywhere you can determine. Each inspector woulddetermine if they feel it's bad enough tocondemn or not.

Q What is the training that you had prior tocondemning Mr. Steinhauser's properties at 1024Euclid and 910 6th Street in the fall of 2002 asit related to rodent issues and infestations?

A As I stated previously, I may have had training.I don't recall.

~ So it would have been your discretion as towhether or not you could have condemned aproperty for mere rodent infestation?

A I'm sorry. What was your question?

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

A No.~ You did not know then. Did Mr. Dawkins ever

explain to you what the difference was between arodent infestation and a severe rodentinfestation?

A He may have. I don't recall.~ Look at the Bates number 50091, when do we

condemn a building, Ms. Martin. And I want youto read the three paragraphs that start atwhenever a structure. Read it slowly if youwill.

A "Whenever a structure is deemed dangerous orunfit for human habitation, we will order thestructure vacated, sometimes immediately, butusually after a short compliance period hasexpired and the occupants are given 1 to 30 daysto find alternative shelter. Condemnationoccurs when life-safety violations exist, suchas fire hazards, unsanitary conditions, severerodent and pest infestation, lack of basicfacilities, faulty construction ordilapidation."

Q The next two paragraphs, please.A "If principal violations are corrected prior to

the vacation date, the order to vacate will beEXHIBIT 21


249 251

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

lifted. If principal violations are corrected 1 would have to leave the property. Correct?after the vacate date, once corrected the 2 A Correct.dwelling can be reoccupied." 3 ~ Do you see here that there's any provision inNow, from a standpoint of principal violations, 4 these rules whereby there's a requirement that

o what was your understanding in the fall of 2002 5 if there's a condemnation, the property has to6 as to what constituted a principal violation in 6 go through a LIEP code compliance?7 your role as a code inspector? 7 A It does not state that on this.8 A Principal violations were usually the life 8 ~ You don't see it on Bates 50091, when do we9 safety type issues such as water, heat. It 9 condemn a building?10 could be a variety of things. 10 A ~o. But, like I said, these are guidelines and11 Q Was it your understanding that principal 11 this was dated August 1st, 2002.12 violations as a phrase was to be used to define 12 Q Do you know if any of the Rules and Procedures13 code deficiencies that would cause condemnation? 13 for the lleighborhood Housing and Property14 A Yes. 14 Improvement Department were ever changed as it15 Q So if the principal violations that caused the 15 relates to when a building could be condemned?16 condemnation were corrected by the owner of the 16 A Again, I think it's up to the inspector's17 property, then the order to vacate would be 17 discretion based upon, you know, guidelines.18 lifted. Correct? 18 ~ So you don't believe -- first of all, look at19 A Each case is different. Possibly. 19 the first page here 50082. Does it say20 Q Well, is there any exceptions here to that first 20 guidelines or does it say Rules and Procedures?21 statement, if principal violations are corrected 21 A It says Rules and Procedures.22 prior to the vacation date, the order to vacate 22 Q So you believe these should be interpreted as23 will be lifted? Is there an exception listed 23 you as an inspector from August 1st, 200224 there? 24 forward as guidelines?

~_A_T_h_er_e_'_s _n_ot_on_e_li_s_te_d_o_n_U_le_f_o_rm_,_no_, -+-2_5__A__Ye_s_. _

250 252~ Then what is the last paragraph? What does that

mean?A "If principal violations are corrected after the

vacate date, once corrected, the dwelling can bereoccupied."

Q So there you got an issue where the repairs weredone following the vacate date that was listedon the Notice of Condemnation. Correct?

A Right.~ Now, is it your understanding, as a code

inspector in the fall of 2002 and forward, thatwhenever you would condemn a structure, youwould placard the building with a Notice ofCondemnation?

A Yes.~ What was the reason for the placarding of the

building?A To put the owner on notice and the tenants.Q And how about the public as well?A I guess I have never thought about it.Q Would that also have been a notice to the

pUblic?A Yes. If somebody drove by, they could read it.~ Your understanding was the placard would

indicate as well a date by which the occupants

1234567891011121314151617181920rLt.

232425

123rQ

EXHIBIT 21


253 255~ Seen a notice to the public about code 1 compliance in any of your notices to the public

compliance? 2 in the year 2001?A No, 3 A I don't know,~ You've included in your condemnations phrases 4 ~ When do you recall first using those macros with

o such as due to the number of violations a code 5 notices to the public as a result of6 compliance will be required, haven't you? 6 condemnations that they -- the homeowner would7 A Yes. 7 be required to have a code compliance?8 ~ And have you also listed similar phrases such as 8 A It was probably 2002 or 2003.9 because of the limited access to the property, a 9 ~ Do you recall having discussions with anyone10 code compliance will be required? 10 from your department about the use of the macro11 A Yes. Again, this is one of the macros that we 11 notice to homeowners about code compliances at12 use when we type up our paperwork, 12 any time?13 ~ Go back to when you started as a code inspector 13 A Yes.14 in 2000. Did you have those macros available 14 ~ 11hen do you first recall a discussion about that15 then? 15 issue?16 A No, 16 A I believe it was with Andy Dawkins. We talked17 ~ Did you have any kind of a macro -- when we I re 17 about on buildings that were condemned, if there18 talking about macro, why don't you define that 18 was a number of violations, then we would19 first? 19 request a code compliance inspection. Again, it20 A When we do any type of correction notice, it's 20 was up to our discretion,21 basically shorthand for us. AF on the 21 ~ Where do you recall that conversation took22 paperwork, everything goes to clerical. They 22 place?23 would type it up. I believe that's animal feces 23 A I believe it was on lihite Bear Avenue.24 and then it has a definition. So they are 24 ~ Did Mr. Dawkins have his own office?~__g_e_ne_r_ic_le_t_te_r_s_t_h_at_ki_n_d_o_f_c_ov_e_r_a_ra_n_ge_, -t-2_5__A__Ye_s_,_h_e_d_id_, _

254 256

12

f

1 ~ Describe that office for me. Was it in the2 front of the overall office or in the back of3 the office? Give me an idea. If I'd walk in4 the front door, where was it?5 A If you walked in the door, it's the second6 office to the left.7 ~ Is it near the front counter, is it?8 A Right.9 ~ Did you have a discussion with Mr. Dawkins about10 code corr.pliances as you referred to in his11 office?12 A No.13 ~ Where did you have the discussion with14 Mr. Dawkins about code compliances?15 A I believe it was in a problem property meeting.16 Q Who was present during the problem property17 meeting?18 A I don't know who was at that particular meeting.19 But as I stated previously, it was usually Steve20 Magner, myself, the two officers, Andy Dawkins,21 and possibly someone from the city attorneys22 office.23 ~ The first time that you recall hearing the24 phrase code compliance, when was that?25 A I don't recall.

Q So it I s shorthand for the inspector that theclerk -- the clerical staff knows what theshorthand is. Right?

A Right.~ So you will write shorthand notes in your

inspector comments on a particular propertyfile. Correct?

A Yes.~ Then will you give those notes to the clerical

staff to actually use the macro computersoftware system to prepare the notice to thehomeowner?

A Yes.~ In the 2000 time frame when you first started as

a code inspector, you don't believe there wereany macros available that would have thephraseology about due to the number ofviolations, you'll need a code compliance or asimilar phrase because of limited access to theproperty you will need a code compliance?There may have been, I don't recall using it.So they may have been available, but you did notuse it during the 2000 year?

A Not that I can recall, no.~ Did you use any of those macros related to code

t.t.232425

12345678910111213141516171819

~AQ

EXHIBIT 21


259

~ It's a standard form. Right?A Correct.~ Why is the contact inspector's name listed on

that particular Notice of Condemnation to thehomeowner and the occupants?

A It is a condemnation?~ Right.A Because that was the inspector who was

responsible for the file.~ If the last page of a Notice of Condemnation

where it's got Mr. Dawkins' printed signatureblock and it has your name above that as theinspector to contact with a phone number, thatmeans that you were involved in that particularproperty in condenning the property. Correct?

A Correct.~ At the time you did any of those condemnations,

would the supervisor have been involved with thedecision in any fashion to condemn that propertyas well?

A Yes.~ So you would go out and make the determination,

the observations and the determination, tocondemn the property but then you'd run yourrecommendation by your supervisor?

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

d.232425

12

~

257~ It could have been when Mr. Dawkins talked about 1 A I don't remember what Mr. Dawkins told me

the code compliance as you indicated during the 2 exactly.problem property meeting? 3 Q Why would you as a code inspector be concerned

A It could have been, yes. 4 with what the LIE? office was doing as a member~ ~ It might have been earlier than that? 5 of the problem property unit?6 A It could have been. 6 A I wasn't concerned with what they were doing.7 ~ What did Mr. Dawkins tell you about code 7 ~ But you started thereafter to include a macro8 co[pliances. 8 notice to homeowners that the homeowner was9 A Just that they were done through the :icensing 9 required to have a code compliance. Isn't that10 department. 10 true?11 ~ l'lhich licensing department? 11 A I did not make the final decision to have code12 A LIEP. 12 compliance inspec:ions on the properties.13 ~ So they were done through LIEP? 13 ~ So any notice that you I ve got that I s a14 A Yes. 14 condemnation where you I re the contact inspector15 ~ What else did he tell you? 15 and Mr. Dawkins' name is on the notice to the16 A Contact Jim Seeger, gave me his phone number, 16 homeowner, you're saying you did not make the17 and said if anybody needs a code compliance, 17 final decision as to whether or not that18 that's who they need to contact. 18 property was required to have a code compliance?19 ~ Did he tell you what a code compliance was? 19 A Most of the properties that were condemned had20 A He said it was a group of inspectors that go 20 that notice on them.21 out. 21 ~ Right, I have seen that. My question to you is:22 ~ Go out where? 22 Where your name is listed as the contact23 A To the property. 23 inspector above Hr. Dawkins' name -- you 're24 ~ l'lhat do they do? 24 familiar with that form, are you not?

~_A_F_r_om_w_h_a_t _I_u_nd_e_rs_t_an_d_,_t_he_r_e_i_s_-_- -+_2_5__A_Y_es_. _258 260

~ Not what you understand. What did he tell you?A I don't remember.~ So he told you it was a group of inspectors that

go out. Is that all he told you?A I don't recall the exact conversation.~ You just started into it. 1'mwondering if I

cut you off there. What do you rememberMr. Dawkins telling you about a code complianceother than it's a group of inspectors that goout?

A That they're trained in their profession,electricians, mechan:cal, pl~~ing and building.

~ So they're experts that go out from the LIEPoffice to a property?

A Correct.~ That I s what he told you?A Yes.~ What did Mr. Dawkins tell you was the purpose

for those experts going out to the property?A I don't recall.~ Did he say they were going to do an inspection

on the property, or they were going to have teawith the owner, or what were they going to do?What did Mr. Dawkins tell you was the purposefor going out there?

12345678910111213141516171819

~\

EXHIBIT 21


264clerical after he's approved it.

~ So your understanding of what a code compliancewas in 2000 came from your discussions withMr. Dawkins. Is that correct?

A Not in 2000.~ In 2002 when Mr. Dawkins came on board. That's

the basis of your understanding as to what acode compliance was?

A I believe so.~ Did you at any time, after Mr. Dawkins discussed

with you a code compliance that you'veindicated, have any discussions with any otherpersonnel in your department about what a codecompliance required?

A As I stated, I believe we discussed it at aproblem property meeting.

Q I think you indicated that's when you believeMr. Dawkins indicated what a code compliancewas?

A Right. And I believe Mr. Magner gave a betterexplanation.

Q What do you recall Mr. Magner saying about whata code compliance was during that problemproperty meeting?

A I don't recall the exact verbatin what he

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

261

A I wouldn't know that.~ Did you ever have conversations with Mr. Dawkins

on any of the properties that you condemnedabout whether or not the property should becondemned?

A I have had conversations with Mr. Dawkinsregarding properties. I don't know specificallyif it was regarding condemnations of certainproperties.

~ But if you had had a conversation withMr. Dawkins about a property that you and yoursupervisor had agreed to condemn, thoseconversations would have been documented in yourproperty file on that property?

A Not necessarily.~S. SEEBA: Form.

~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemake:) Not necessarily?But do you know, was there a system in placewhereby you as a code inspector and yoursupervisor had to gain the approval ofMr. Dawkins on a property that was going to becondemned?

A I don't know that.~ It's your understanding that the supervisor was

the final level of approval needed in order to

12

f

12345678910111213141516171819~r v

."

t.L

232425

263A Yes. 1 condemn a property and place individuals out on~ To see whether the supervisor agreed with your 2 the street in the City of St. Paul?

recommendation to condemn the property. 3 A My understanding was once a property wasCorrect? 4 condemned, I wrote up the paperwork. I gave it

o A Yes. 5 to my supervisor.6 ~ Then what was the next level of approval? 6 ~ And you had a discussion with your supervisor as7 Obviously, Mr. Dawkins eventually gets his name 7 to whether or not the supervisor agreed with8 on the condemnation notice. What happened after 8 your determination to condemn the property.9 the inspector gave the approval to you to 9 Correct?10 condemn the property? 10 A Yes.11 A I'm sorry. 11 Q Then your supervisor, how did the supervisor12 ~ We just talked about you going out to the 12 tell you, yes, I think it should be condemned13 property, making the observations, deciding that 13 or, no, it shouldn't be condemned?14 it probably should be condemned, checking with 14 A He'd sign the form.15 your supervisor, getting the approval of the 15 ~ What kind of a form did he sign?16 supervisor. Now what do you do? 16 A It's just next to where I would list property17 A Once I hand off the file to the supervisor and 17 condemnation information, and I believe Steve18 it's condemned, I'm not sure what my supervisor 18 Magner would just sign the --19 does with it besides give it to clerical to send 19 ~ This is in your actual property notes in the20 out notices. 20 report file. Correct?21 Q So you don't believe that the Notices 0f 21 A Correct.22 Condemnation went across the desk of Mr. Dawkins 22 ~ Where you would make notations and then you'd23 even though his signature is on each of the 23 hand it to the clerical staff to, actually, do24 Norices of Condemnation as a director of the 24 the macro notice to the homeowner. Right?~ department? 25 A Actually, my supervisor would hand it toC··-------+-------

262

EXHIBIT 21


267

any time?A If he was at that meeting, then he would have

heard our discussion, but no.Q Do you know of any notice that has ever been

provided in a flyer of any type to citizens inthe City of St. Paul about when code compliancescan be required on their properties?

A No.Q Do you know if there were ever internal rules

that you were able to access to make adetermination as to whether a code complianceshould be required on a property that you'vecondemned?

A No.Q So where you required code compliances, you're

saying that it was within your sole discretionas to whether or not you should require a codecompliance?

A I believe at the meeting that we had with theproblem property unit, we had determined that onthe properties that were condemned, that thatwould be a standard macro we'd use.

Q So any property that was condemned by youroffice after that meeting that you referred toof the problem property group, the standard

12345678910111213141516171819

~d.232425

2651 stated. But he explained that it was the LIEP 1 homeowners following your meeting with the2 office, same thing as Andy Dawkins did. 2 problem property unit, when is the first one you~ ~ Anything else you remember Mr. Magner telling 3 recall where you condemned a property and it

C" you about what a code compliance was? 4 required a code compliance of an owner?~ A I believe they used those with vacant buildings. 5 A I don't recall which one it was.6 ~ So it was your understanding at the time that 6 ~ Did you have any questions of Mr. Dawkins or7 Mr. Magner was involved with vacant buildings in 7 Mr. Magner about when a code compliance should8 the City of St. Paul, fall of 2002? 8 be required on a property?9 A Yes. 9 A I donlt recall.10 ~ Was he also a supervisor over line inspectors, 10 ~ So you don I t recall if that discussion took11 area inspectors such as you? Did he have a dual 11 place during the meeting with Mr. Dawkins and12 role there? 12 Mr. Magner where you referred to their13 A I'm not sure exactly what his role was. I bow 13 discussions about a code compliance?14 he was my direct supervisor. 14 A It may have.15 ~ He was your direct supervisor once you became a 15 Q Did anyone else from the City of St. Paul ever16 problem property inspector. Correct? 16 tell you that you as a code inspector had the17 A Yes. 17 discretion to require a homeowner to have to go18 Q So he made a comment during the problem property 18 through a code compliance with the LIEP office19 meeting as to what his understanding of a code 19 before they could reoccupy their property?20 co:npliance was. Correct? 20 A I don I t recall that.21 A Yes. 21 Q Did you ever have any discussions with22 Q Did he say what the authority was for code 22 Mr. Lippert about code compliances at any time?23 inspectors with the code enforcement office to 23 A Not that I recall.24 require code compliances of homeowners? 24 Q How about discussions with Officer Koehnen, did~ _A_I_be_l_i_ev_e_1_'t_w_a_s_u..;.p_t_o_o_u_r_d_i_sc_r_e_t1_'o_n_. -+-2_5 yo_u_e_v_e_r_t_al_k_to_h1_'m_ab_o_ut_c_od_e_c_o...;mp;..l_i_an_c_es_at__

266 268Q Is that what he said? 1A I don't recall exactly what he said. 2Q Did you at any time make a determination that 3

you as a code inspector for the City of St. Paul 4had the discretion to require a code compliance? 5

A Yes. 6Q When did you first make that determination? 7A After the problem property meeting that we had 8

with Andy Dawkins. 9Q Again, you think that was early on in Mr. 10

Dawkins tenure as a director? 11A It could have been. 12Q You think it was still in 2002? 13A 2002 or 2003. 14Q Was it before you condemned Mr. Steinhauser's 15

1024 Euclid and 910 6th Street properties? 16A It may have been. I don I t recall. 17Q Did you have any discussions with any of the 18

city attorneys staff that a code compliance 19would be required as part of the city's TRAls 20against Mr. Steinhauser on his two properties, 211024 and 910 6th Street? 22

A It's possible. I donlt recall unless I saw the 23file. 24

Q The code compliances that you required of 25EXHIBIT 21


the property owner, then the building can bereoccupied under the rules. Correct?

A That's what it states.~ But if a code compliance is required, then

that's -- you don't consider that to be aprincipal violation, do you, code compliance?

A I guess I have never really thought about it.~ That's not an existing deficiency in a building,

is it?A No. Itls a requirement before the placard can

be lifted.~ So it's an additional requirement that's not

found in the rules as to when a property ownercan have a building reoccupied. Correct?

A It's not listed.MS. SEEBA: What's your question,

John?~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) If the homeowner

is looking at the rules, it says, hey, if I getthe principal violations corrected, I can get mytenants back in the property. Isn't that whatthe rules say that welre looking at, Bate 500911

A But if they are looking at the condemnationnotice, it also states on there they need a codecompliance inspection before it can be

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

26912

~f' ,

12345678910111213141516171819

~a232425

271protocol was to require a code compliance? 1 ~ Do you know how much it cost to have a building

A Depending on each case, yes. 2 in a vacant building program with the City of~ So there were exceptions? 3 St. Paul from a standpoint of a fee?A Yes. 4 A I have no idea.

b ~ What were the exceptions? 5 ~ So youlve never talked with anybody from LIEP as6 A I can't recall them off the top of my head, but 6 to the costs that can be incurred by a property7 if there was a property that I condemned based 7 owner as a result of your making a determination8 upon just lack of electricity or lack of water. 8 that a property has to have a code compliance?9 ~ In those situations, that I s a lack of a basic 9 A No.10 facility under Chapter 34. Is that right? 10 ~ Have you ever had any complaints from homeowners11 A Correct. 11 other than the plaintiffs that the code12 ~ So that I s a trigger point for you as a code 12 compliances that you required on properties were13 inspector to require a condemnation of the 13 very expensive to go through?14 property. Right? 14 A No.15 A Correct. 15 Q Have you ever made a determination that because16 ~ The occupants don I t have water, that I s a health 16 you required a code compliance, a property was17 issue. Right? 17 in an extended vacant status for longer than it18 A Yes. 18 would have been :f you were to just allow the19 ~ Safety issue as well? 19 homeowner to fix up the principal violations?20 A Can be. 20 A I'm sorry. Would you repeat the question?21 Q If they don't have electricity in the winter 21 ~ The rules here that we looked at about when a22 time, that I s a health and safety issue, is it 22 building can be condemned indicate when the23 not? 23 building can be reoccupied. Correct?24 A Yes. 24 A That's what it says.~ ~ So you I re saying that an exception to the 25 ~ So if the principal violations are corrected byC/'-------t-------

270 272agreement reached by the problem property unitat that meeting for when code compliances wOlldnot be required was if you had a simple lack ofa basic facility like, for example, electricityor water?

A That's not what 11msaying.~ Tell me what the exceptions were for complying

code compliances on every condemnation thatyou --

A I would have to look at every file that I did acondemnation on to determine which one I didn'trequire that on and it would state what theexception was.

~ Don't you believe that there should be some typeof a written procedure for you as a codeinspector to determine when and when not youshould require a code compliance on a property?

A No.~ Do you know how much it cost on the low end to

do a code compliance?A No.~ Do you know how much the fee is that a home

owner has to pay in order to have a codeco]pliance inspection?

A No. EXHIBIT 21


275A My job is not to find alternative housing.Q Have you in any situation ever looked to see

whether any of the tenants that were forced outof their homes ever found alternative housing?

MS. SEEBA: Form, asked and

2731 reoccupied. 12 ~ They're looking at the rules as to when they are 2~ going to be in compliance and how they should 3C' get back into compliance. It doesnlt talk 4o anything about a code compliance as an 56 additional requirement, does it? 6 answered.7 A Not on this form, no. 7 A Not that I recall.8 ~ But you have the internal agreement with the 8 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you know if the9 other members of the problem property unit that 9 City Council ever had any input into this10 there should be this additional requirement on 10 decision made by the problem property unit11 condemned buildings. Except under certain 11 members to require code compliances on condemned12 circumstances, property owners would have to go 12 buildings?13 through these code compliances. That was the 13 A No.14 agreement you reached. Right? 14 ~ You don I t believe they had a role in that15 A What was your question? 15 decision?16 Q My question is: The additional requirement of a 16 A I don I t have any knowledge of that.17 code compliance wasn I t in the rules. It was 17 ~ Did Mr. Dawkins ever say that Mayor Kelly was18 merely an agreement you reached with the problem 18 approving the agreement to have code compliances19 property members? 19 required on properties that were condemned after20 A I donlt recall how the code compliance exactly 20 the summer of 2002?21 was listed, but that is one of the requirements 21 A He J s never said anything to me about that.22 on most of my condemned properties, yes. 22 Q So Mr. Dawkins never said he had authority or23 ~ Most of them. Are you saying 90 percent of the 23 approval to make that agreement?24 properties that you 1ve condemned you required a 24 A No. You I d have to ask him.~__c_o_de_c_om_p_ll_'a_nc_e_si_n_ce_20_0_2_? -+-2_5__Q_W_h_o_se_i_de_a_w_a_s_l_'t_,_i_n_t_h_e_D_ep_a_r_tm_e_nt_o_f _

274 276A I believe so. 1 Neighborhood Housing Property Improvement or, as~ Is it higher than 90 percent? 2 it was called, code enforcement, to require codeA I don't know. lid have to look at each file. 3 compliances on condemned properties?Q Do you follow-up -- after you condemn a property 4 A I don't remember.

and require a code compliance, do you follow up 5 Q You're sitting there in a meeting. Who broughtwith that particular property and see where itls 6 it up?at? 7 A It was a long time ago. I don't remember.

A No. 8 ~ Do you think it was Mr. Dawkins that suggestedQ So once you condemn it, that's the end of it for 9 it?

you? 10 A I have no idea.A Usually, yes. 11 ~ He already made a determination that I s what heQ Do you ever follow-up to see if the tenants in a 12 wanted the unit to agree to?

property that you required to leave their home, 13 MS. SEEBA: Form.leave their neighborhood, ever found alternative 14 A I donlt know, John.housing? 15 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Did Mr. Magner

A No. 16 suggest that properties that your departmentQ So you donlt really care about that issue, do 17 handled that you condemned should be required to

you? 18 have code compliances?A 11mthere for the housing issues. 19 A As I previously stated, I don't remember whoQ You I re there to make sure that the tenants are 20 mentioned it.

safe, but you really donlt care what happens to 21 ~ Do you ever feel there was political influencethem after you condemn a building? 22 being exerted against the problem property unit

A That I 5 not what 11msaying. 23 while you were a member of that unit duringQ Isn I t that true if you don't follow up with them 24 ~lr. Dawkins' directorship?

to see if they got alternative housing? 25 A What do you mean?

12345678910111213141516171819

~£2232425 EXHIBIT 21


279

:>6789101112131415161718192021222324

277Q Well, do you know what political influence on an 1 with then?

inspector is? 2 A Not that I can recall.A No. 3 Q You have a working definition of a problemQ Did you ever read the CSO audit that was 4 property, do you not?

prepared in the year 2000 about code 5 A Yes.enforcement? 6 Q What is your definition of it, as you sit here

A No. 7 today?Q Did anyone ever talk about the CSO audit at any 8 A It's a property that has had many code

tine you were a code inspector? 9 violations with noncompliance or one that hasA No. 10 police issues or nuisance behavior issues and/orQ Did anyone ever talk to you about inspectors 11 both.

being pressured to do certain things on 12 Q Now, that definition that you just stated, wasproperties as it related to code deficiencies? 13 that your working definition when you joined the

A No. 14 problem property unit in 2002?Q Did you ever read the problem property report 15 A I don't remember.

that was prepared by Ms. Moermond and 16 Q Or shortly thereafter joining the problemMr. Straffman (ph) and their staff? 17 property unit, was that your working definition?

A No. 18 A I don't remember.Q I'm talking about the March 2002 problem 19 ~ Was there a definition of what a problem

property report. 20 property meant during your work on problemA No. 21 properties in the fall of 2002?Q You never read that report? 22 A 11as there what?A No. 23 ~ Aworking definition in your unit of the problemQ Was that report available to you as a member of 24 property group as to what constituted a problem

~__t_he_p_ro_b_le_m_p_ro_p_e_rt_y_u_n_it_? -t_2_5 p_ro_p_er_t_y_i_n_t_he_f_al_l_o_f_2_0_02_. _

278 280

12

f

12345678910111213141516171819

~~~

232425

A I have no idea.Q Were there documents that were made available to

you as a member of the problem property unit byMr. Dawkins or others?

MS. SEEBA: Form.A Regarding what?Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Were there

documents other than your standard documentsthat you worked with as a code inspector?

A There may have been. I'm not aware of anything.~ So when you became an inspector working with the

problem property unit, you don't recall anyother docurr.entation that was given to you from astandpoint of how you as an inspector should bedealing with problem properties?

A No.Q Do you recall any training in or on the issues

of problem properties from the time that youstarted as a problem property inspector?

A No.Q You don't remember any training or you didn't

have any training?A I don't remember any training.~ Is it possible that someone would have given you

training on problem properties and how to deal

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

A I'm sure there was.Q Do you remember what it was?A No.Q Do you remember if it was different from the

definition you just gave me as you sit heretoday?

A It's possible.Q Do you believe that in the fall of 2002 that a

problem property could either be a property thathad repeat code violations that were uncorrectedor a problem with nuisance behavior byoccupants? Could be an either/or.

A Sure.Q And that was the case in the fall of 2002?A It's possible.G) Do you believe that the problem property unit's

focus was on the behavior of occupants andowners of properties?

A No.Q Was there any focus at all on the issue of

tenants' behavior?A I believe where there were search warrants done,

there was a letter sent out by Officer Wiegelletting the owners know that there were issueswith the tenants. But I wasn't involved inEXHIBIT 21


281 2831 that. 1 enforcement department and wanted to get as much2 G) Officer Wiegel in doing that was working as a 2 information as I could.

f A ~:~er of the problem property unit? ~ (~:~~:~t~~; ~~:~:i;i~~~i~n~~s

::> G) In the fall of 2002, do you recall being 5 G) Ms. Martin, I have handed you what has been6 involved in any property that had exclusively 6 previously marked as Dawkins Exhibit 9 and now7 behavior issues and it was noted as a problem 7 we will mark it as Martin Exhibit 3. If you8 property? 8 take a look at that, I will go through the Bates9 A I don't recall specifically. I usually dealt 9 numbers here. It was Exhibit 9 for Dawkins,10 with the code issues. 10 running 50138 consecutively to 50158. Take a11 G) So your usual handling of problem properties 11 look at that. I will tell you that the first12 were the ones that had code related issues? 12 few pages you don't need to be concerned about.13 A Correct. 13 I may ask a couple of quick questions, but I14 G) Do you know of any case, from the time that you 14 want you to look back at 50147. It I S a little15 joined the problem property unit in the fall of 15 different format on these problem property16 2002 forward, where you were involved as a code 16 lists. If you can, look at those for a few17 inspector on a property that merely had the 17 minutes.18 behavior issues or nuisance behavior issues? 18 A (Witness examining document).19 A Just behavior issues? 19 Q Let's turn to this Exhibit 3. I'll have you go20 G) Right. 20 back to Bates 50147. This particular sideways21 A Not that I can recall. 21 document, have you ever seen a form like this?22 Q Do you remember being interviewed at any time by 22 A Yes.23 either the city research staff or the City 23 G) When is the first time you would have seen a24 Council about any particular item that was of 24 form like this with a listing of the information~__c_o_nc_e_rn_to_th_e_C_i_tY_CO_U_nC_i_l_? --+_2_5 t_ha_t_'s_on_th_i_s_t_y_pe_of_a_d_o_cum_en_t_? _

282 28412345678910111213141516171819

~LL232425

A No.G) That would be the case from 2000 forward?A No.G) Were you interviewed as part of the city's audit

of the CSO office and code enforcement?A No. I never knew there was the audit.G) Do you have a working definition of what

constitutes a chronic problem property?A No.G) Have you ever heard the term?A I believe I have seen it, yes.G) Where do you recall seeing that phrase?A I don't know if it was in one of our meetings

that it was brought up or possibly on the webpage.

G) How often would you go to the web page that yourdepartment had posted at the City of St. Paulweb site?

A Maybe a couple times a year.G) When did that start where you went and looked at

the web site?A Prior to my taking the position as an inspector.G) Why did you go there prior to your taking the

position as inspector?A Because I was interested in working for the code

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

A It would have been given to me at the problemproperty meeting.

Q And you referred earlier that there would beupdates to the problem property list. Correct?

A Yes.Q Where on the 50147 would the updated information

be contained? Would it be under the notessection?

A Not necessarily.Q Where else would the updated information be on a

subsequent problem property type listing?A Aproperty could have been removed, so it's no

longer on the list. The owner may have changedor they would have updated notes.

Q So there could be a couple of columns that mayhave been updated. Correct?

A Correct.~ Now, look on 50147 across there, it looks like

there's a file number 0201?A Yes.Q Is that the first problem property on the list

for the problem property unit after it came intoexistence?

A I don't know.~ Do you know what the file numbering systemEXHIBIT 21


285 287

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

't.2.232425

referred to? 1 property meeting.A No, I didn't. 2 Q Do you remember Mr. Dawkins ever talking aboutQ Do you know if there were other problem 3 any type of a property where he wanted to check

properties on any lists prior to the 910 6th 4 inside to see the condition of the property?~ Street property? 5 A Not that I can recall.6 A I don't know that. 6 Q I see it right here on this particular entry and7 Q This particular listing, however, has 7 I see it down be:ow under the 26769 Bates. Do8 Mr. Steinhauser on the first page. Correct? 8 you see where it says, inside is a question?9 A Yes. 9 A Which one?10 Q Do you see under the OCC period, is that 10 Q The last entry on that 50147, the last property11 occupant unit number there? 11 there.12 A I would assume 50. 12 A Yes, I see it.13 Q Do you see Denise Galloway and Achaka (sic) 13 Q Then look at the next page, 50148, do you see14 Cousette listed there? 14 the third property there owned by Kenneth Krahn?15 A Yes. 15 A Yes.16 Q You had contact with those occupants. Correct? 16 Q And under notes where it says, try to get17 A I believe so. 17 inside?18 Q Look under notes there. Do you see where it 18 A Yes.19 says active force file? 19 Q So do you recall any discussions during any of20 A Yes. 20 the problem property meetings that you attended21 Q What does that stand for? 21 from the start of the problem property unit in22 A I have no idea. 22 2002 forward whe:e there were comments made23 Q Would you ever talk to anyone during the problem 23 about the inside of a property is a question or24 property meetings about force issues? 24 want to get inside, get inside to check out the

~_A_u_su_a_l_ly_a_n_Y_i_n_fo_rm_a_t_io_n_r_e_ga_r_dl_'n_g_f_o_rc_e_, _O_ff_i_ce_r_-f-2_5 p_ro_p_er_t_y,_th_o_se_~_in_d_s_o_f_d_is_c_us_s_io_n_s_? _

286 288Koehnen communicated if there was anything thatwe needed to know about. But, otherwise, policeissues were police issues.

Q So you didn't concern yourself with policeissues as part of the problem property unit?

A I didn't, no. My job was to inspect thebuildings.

Q Look under the second line, I should say next to234, 238 Bates. Do you see where it says nextto 10/16/02, inactive - to Force bin?

A Yes.Q Do you know what bin refers to?A I have no idea.Q Check up there on the 910 6th Street under

notes, do you see the comment, want to checkinside?

A Yes.Q Who would have wrote that?A I have no idea.Q Who were the ones that were responsible for

entry of the notes?A Usually Pat McGinn.Q But who would have given Pat McGinn the

information?A It could have been anybody at the problem

12345678910111213141516171819

~

12

f

EXHIBIT 21


291289subject. 1 Hardges?

~ Did you go down the properties from -- let's say 2 A I don't know. I'd have to look at the file.if this was the first page of this particular 3 ~ How about 812 Stewart property?problem property list, 50147. When you were at 4 A I have been to that property. I don't know if

~ the meeting, would you start by discussing the 5 that's the time that I had that property or not.6 first property on the list? 6 ~ How abou: on 276 Forbes on 50151 with Pamela7 A Yes. 7 Jaworski, have you ever been involved in that8 ~ So then what was typically done? Someone would 8 property?9 say, well, who's the inspector assigned to this? 9 A Yes.10 A No. 10 ~ As a problem property?11 ~ What would happen? 11 A I believe it was, yes.12 A We I d know who the inspector was because I was 12 ~ How about the next page, second property, 156013 the inspector for the problem property unit. 13 Western Avenue, were you the inspector there for14 ~ So you were inspector for all of the properties 14 the Harpers property?15 that are listed on the problem property list 15 A I don't recall.16 here? 16 ~Let'sgobackt050l47. We'll move to 148. The17 A The majority of them, yes. 17 Minnehaha property there with Mr. Krahn, do you18 ~ You've got 910-6th Street. You were the 18 remember meeting with Mr. Krahn?19 inspector there. Correct? 19 A Yes.20 A Yes. 20 ~ Did you deal with Mr. Krahn on the problem21 ~ How about the next two, the one owned by M&M 21 property at 507-513 on Minnehaha?22 Properties and by Carlos/Kelly Casci on Bates 22 A I believe I did.23 50147. Were you inspector on those second and 23 ~ Try to get inside, code to the max. Do you see24 third ones? 24 that?~_A_I_d_o_n_'t_r_e_me_mb_e_r_M_&_M_p_ro_p_e_rt_i_es_,_b_u_t_I_do -t_2_5__A_Ye_s_. _

290 292remember Carlos Casci because I still deal with 1 ~ Did you ever hear anyone in your department --him. 2 by department, I mean the NHPI office or the

~ That's a yes, that you were the inspector at the 3 code enforcement office prior to that -- use thetime of this November 13, 2002 report? 4 phrase code to the max?

A Yes. 5 A Not that I can recall.~ Go to the next page, 50148. We have got a 6 ~ It's listed here on the problem property report

property on Euclid at the top. Were you the 7 that was being handed OUt to your probleminspector there? 8 property unit, did you ever remember seeing the

A I don't recall. lid have to look at the file. 9 phrase code to the max?~ How about 719 Burr, were you the inspector 10 A No.

there? 11 ~ It's used in a number of documents that weA That looks like Korman, so that would be 12 received from Mr. Steven Mark. You're saying

probably the fire department. 13 you've never seen the word or phrase code to the~ So there's a property on here that was a Cof 0 14 max?

property? Is that the Burr property? 15 A No.A Yes, that's what it says. 16 Q Before today?~ Then the 507-513 Krahn property, were you the 17 A No.

inspector there? 18 ~ Have you ever heard anyone use the phrase codeA I may have been. 19 to the max?~ How about on the next page, Bates 50149, were 20 A No.

you the inspector on either of the Beaumont or 21 ~ Including Mr. Dawkins?Desoto properties? 22 A No.

A I remember Allen Wood. I don't know if this was 23 Q You never heard Mr. Dawkins say code to the max?the property. It may have been. 24 A No.

Q But not the Beaumont property owned by the 25 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Dawkins say anything

12

f'

12345678910111213141516171819

~~2

232425 EXHIBIT 21


293 295

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

1 similar to that? 1 Q Do you know what a vacant building category 12 A Yes. 2 is?

~ QA

Wchaltl

WOUldt?: similar to that? 43 A

Qwlhbetl~ev:ts?o.

C'" a every n1ng you see. a 1S 1 .~ Q Did he use any other phraseology that would be 5 A Just a horne that's being monitored that has no6 similar to call everything you see? 6 code violations. That's a registered vacant7 A Not that I can think of. 7 building.8 Q When did Mr. Dawkins use call everything you can 8 Q lvhat is a vacant building category 2 within the9 see that you remember? 9 City of St. Paul's code enforcement system?10 A During sweeps. 10 A I believe -- again, I don't work for vacant11 Q Any other time? 11 buildings. I believe a category 2 is one that12 A Not that I can recall. 12 requires a code compliance inspection.13 Q These aren't sweeps here, are they, with these 13 Q So is it your understanding that a category 214 problem properties? 14 building that's considered vacant always has to15 A No. 15 have a code compliance before it can be16 Q But there's similar language. Would you think 16 occupied?17 that as an inspector code to the max is similar 17 A Again, I don't work for vacant buildings. I18 to call everything? 18 don't know what their requirement is.19 A I guess, like I said, I have never seen that 19 Q Have any of the vacant building inspectors ever20 until now. So I'm not sure what Mr. Dawkins' 20 told you that that's the case?21 intentions were. 21 A No.22 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Dawkins say try to use a 22 Q Have any of the vacant building inspectors ever23 condemnation to force eviction of occupants from 23 told you that getting a vacant building into24 a property? 24 their program would require a code compliance?

~_A_NO_. -+-2_5__A_NO_. _

294 296Q Have any of the vacant building inspectors ever

told you that you should try to get a buildinginto a category 2?

A No.Q Or that you should try to get a building

condemned so that they could get it into acategory 2?

A No.Q Now, the properties that you've condemned, you

thought about 90 percent of them had codecompliance requirements. Do you recall that?

A Yes.Q What percentage of those that required code

compliances were category 2's?A I don't know.Q Do you know if there's a category 3?A I believe there is. Again--Q What is the difference between a category 2 and

a category 3?A I'm not sure.Q Look at the next page, 50158, Ms. Martin.

Property at 1235 Margaret owned by Terry Oleary.Do you see that?

A Yes.Q Did you have any role in that particular

1 Q Anything similar to that that Mr. Dawkins ever2 used?3 A No.4 Q In other words, try to get a building into a5 vacant building program so that he could force6 eviction. Did you ever hear him say that?7 A No.8 Q Look at 50157, property owned by Evanson,9 Coreen, 944 Euclid. Do you see that?10 A Yes.11 Q Did you ever work on that file?12 A I don't believe so, but --13 Q Do you see there under the notes, can you read14 that aloud, please, that whole block?15 A It says, 10/16 serious code violations. Owner16 occupied. User. 38 police calls. Vacant17 building condemned with a question mark. Try to18 get to VB Cat. II for code compliance. Vacant19 building (new owner.)

..lQ Q When it says, try to get to VB Cat. II, whatC"'" does that mean to you?

L£ A I'd be speculating. I didn't write the notes.23 Q Do you know what a vacant building is in the24 City of St. Paul?25 A Yes. EXHIBIT 21


297 2991 property? 1 going on. He may have forgotten that he did2 A I don't recall. 2 speak with me .

..;t Q You don't know a Mr. Oleary? 3 Q Did you know Officer Koehnen before he startedC'" , A No, I don't. 4 to work for the code enforcement problem

:> Q Do you see down there on the right-hand side 5 property unit?6 under notes that it talks about, do code to the 6 A No.7 max to help eviction? 7 Q Did Mr. Dawkins talk about implementing field8 A Where are you seeing that? 8 finds when he first came to the office?9 Q In the notes on that 1235 Margaret property. 9 A He may h3ve.10 A Yes. 10 Q Do you recall that he discussed with the11 Q Do you remember anyone ever discussing do code 11 inspectors, including yourself, that when you12 to the max to help eviction on a problem 12 went out to a property, you should look for13 property? 13 field finds?14 A No, I do nct. 14 A Yes.15 Q Do you remember looking at any comments like 15 Q Did he do that early on in his administration or16 this during any of the problem property meetings 16 did he do that later on in his directorship?17 where you saw this kind of phraseology? 17 A I don't recall.18 A No. This is the first time I have ever seen it. 18 Q Do you recall if it was after Mr. Steinhauser's19 Q That you've ever seen this p3rticular phrase? 19 lawsuit was filed in May of 2004 that he20 A Yes. 20 actually implemented the field find requirement21 Q You attended the Andy Dawkins deposition? rlas 21 for the inspectors?22 it both days? 22 A I don't know.23 A Yes. 23 Q What was the general feeling of inspectors about24 Q Did you think that t4r. Dawkins at any time said 24 Mr. Dawkins shortly after he started as a~__s_om_e_t_hi_ng_th_a_t_y_OU_fO_u_nd_to_be_in_a_cc_u_ra_t_e?_. -t-2_5 d_ir_e_ct_o_r_o_f_y_ou_r_c_o_de_en_f_or_c_em_e_nt_of_f_ic_e_? _

298 3001 A I can't speak for the other inspectors.2 MS. SEEBA: Objection, form.3 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) What was your4 conclusion or your view of Mr. Dawkins after he5 started as a director of your office?6 A Are you asking for my opinion?7 Q Right.8 A I don't have an opinion.9 Q You don't have a professional opinion about Mr.10 Dawkins?11 A No.12 Q Do you have a private opinion about Mr. Dawkins?13 A No.14 Q Did you get a promotion at some point as an15 inspector after Mr. Dawkins took over the16 directorship?17 A No.18 Q Did you get a pay raise after Mr. Dawkins took19 over directorship of the code enforcement20 office?21 A I had to file a job study in order to get an22 increase for what I was doing.23 Q You had to file some documentation in order to24 get a pay increase for some additional duties25 you were doing?

A Yes.Q What did you think Mr. Dawkins said that was

inaccurate?A When dealing with Frank Steinhauser's property.Q What do you recall Mr. Dawkins saying that you

thought was inaccurate?A I believe you asked him if I had ever asked him

any questions regarding Mr. Steinhauser'sproperty, and I believe his response was no.

Q You're referring to when Mr. Dawkins said thatyou hadn't asked hi~ any questions about eitt.erof the two properties that ~ere condemned by youin the fall of 2002?

A I believe we were talking about the York Avenueproperties.

Q Talking about the criminal citations?A Correct.Q Mr. Dawkins said that you hadn't talked to him,

but that's wrong?Correct.Today you testified that you went to him and hesaid, issue the criminal tags. Right?

A Absolutely. It's noted in my file. Again, Andyhad so many different meetings and he talked tomany different inspectors. There was a lot

1234567891011121314151617181920 A~Q

d.232425 EXHIBIT 21


303

A No.~ What do you know about Mr. Magner's associations

with contractors in the City of St. Paul?A Specifically--~ Well, do you know any of the individuals that

Mr. Magner has contact with that arecontractors?

A No.Q You never had any conversations with Mr. Magner

about that?A No.Q Have you ever been at a property where

Mr. Magner was at a property and there was acontractor at a property?

A I'm sure there has, but I don't recall anyspecifics.

~ Do you remember ever seeing Mr. Magner in thecompany of Wally Nelson?

A Not that I recall, and I don't believe I knowwho Wally Nelson is.

~ Your testimony is you don't know who WallyNelson is?

A I don't believe so. I may have met him in thepast. I don't know who he is.

~ Do you know of any of the contractors that do

"t.L232425

12

~

301A Correct. 1 it's not something that we have had.~ What were the additional duties you were doing? 2 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you remember,A I was no longer an area inspector. I was 3 when Mr. Dawkins was here for his deposition,

working on problem properties. 4 that he indicated that if someone ordered a code~ ~ So when you were working on problem properties, 5 compliance on a property, they did it on their6 was it your understanding that you had 6 own without his knowledge or approval?7 additional duties that, therefore, justified 7 A No, I don't remember that.8 additional pay? 8 ~ Would you agree with that statement, that your9 A Yes. 9 issuing a notice to a homeowner that the10 ~ Did you get the additional pay? 10 homeowner had to have a code compliance was done11 A I had to fight for it, but yes. 11 without Mr. Dawkins approval or knowledge?12 ~ \1ere other inspectors voicing opposition to your 12 A That is possible, yes.13 pay raise? 13 Q It is possible that he wouldn't have known about14 A I don't know. 14 it?15 Q No one made the comment to you that they were 15 A Correct.16 opposed to that? 16 ~ It I s possible that you would have issued a code17 A I had one inspector that cane direct!y to me, 17 compliance requirement without Mr. Dawkins'18 yes. 18 approval?19 ~ Who was that? 19 A Yes.20 A Paula Seeley. 20 ~ Do you know if Mr. Dawkins ever gave approval21 Q What conversations did you have with Paula 21 for you as an inspector to require homeowners to22 Seeley about what we just talked about? 22 have code compliances?23 A If I recall, Paula stated she didn't feel I did 23 A I don I t know. You I d have to ask him.24 any more work than she did and was upset that I 24 ~ But do you recall any specific authorization~__f_i_le_d_f_o_r_a_J_E_Q. -+-2_5 t_ha_t_h_e_g_a_ve_t_o_y_ou_th_a_t_a_I_lo_w_ed_yo_u_t_o_d_o_t_h_at_?_

~2 3~

~ What is a JEQ? 1A Ajob study. 2~ What did the job study involve? 3A I submitted information on what I did to hurr.an 4

resources. 5~ Was that in written form? 6A Yes, it was. 7~ How much volume was it in writing that you 8

submitted to them? 9A A lot. 10~ Like was it a booklet or -- 11A I believe it was eight to ten pages. 12~ What was the subject matter of it? 13A Problem property inspector. 14

MR. SHOEMAKER: Louise, I want to 15request a copy of that document, if you can 16produce that as soon as you can, I'd appreciate 17it. 18

MS. SEEBA: If it's responsive to 19anything you asked for. 1'mnot going to let 20you -- you've had 75 document requests. If 21that's responsive -- 22

MR. SHOEMAKER: It's in there. 23MS. SEEBA: If it is, you'll get it 24

and if it exists. But I haven't seen it and 25

12345678910111213141516171819

~Fm

,

EXHIBIT 21


307

A And Mike Kalis had the bar.G) Have you ever taken out a restraining order or,

say, sought a restraining order against anyone?A Yes.G) Tell me when that's happened.A I believe it was in 2001.G) What were the circumstances that led you to seek

a restraining order?A It was my soon-to-be-exhusband.G) What was his name?A Aaron Foster.G) Why did you take out a restraining order or ask

for a restraining order?MS. SEEBA: You want to tell me how

this is relevant, John? I need some offer ofproof of why you think it's relevant that shehad a restraining order -- sought a restrainingorder against her exhusband.

MR. SHOEMAKER: It's notprivileged.

MS. SEEBA: Does it lead to theadmissibility of discoverable evidence?

MR. SHOEMAKER: It may.MS. SEEBA: Give me an offer of

proof and I will tell you if she can answer.

305remodeling in the City of St. Paul that do it on 1 A None.a substantial number of units? 2 G) So what do you do from the standpoint of

A No. 3 responding to that type of an inquiry?G) Have you ever heard of the company called 4 A I let them know I don't have any information.

o Renovation, Inc.? 5 If they want, they can contact Ramsey County6 A I have heard of them, yes. 6 Property Taxation to inquire about who the owner7 G) In what role have you heard of Renovation, Inc.? 7 is to contact the owner.8 A I believe I have seen their vehicles. 8 G) You say you get calls on a frequent basis on9 G) Were their vehicles at properties? 9 these properties, and you believe it's because10 A Yes. 10 your name is on the placard of condemnation?11 G) In the city where you've been inspecting 11 A Yes.12 properties? 12 ~ Do you know any of the employees of your office13 A No. 13 that have purchased real estate interests on14 G) Just driving by? 14 properties in the City of St. Paul at any time15 A Driving through the city, yes. 15 that you've been a code inspector?16 G) Have you ever had contact by any individual that 16 A Prior to the depositions, no.17 was interested in purchasing a property where 17 G) Which deposition did you learn that information18 you were or had condemned a property? 18 from?19 A Yes. 19 A I believe it was Andy's deposition where you20 G) How did the individual get contact with you 20 mentioned Steve Schiller had a rental property21 about their interest to purchase a property? 21 in St. Paul.22 A Usually on the condemnation placard is my name 22 G) Prior to that, your testimony is that you didn't23 and phone number. 23 know any of the inspectors had a real estate24 ~ How often would that happen where you'd get a 24 interest, other than their own home, in the City~__c_a_ll_o_r_a_c_o_nt_a_ct_f_ro_m_s_o_me_o_n_e_a_bo_u_t_a_p_ro_p_er_t_y_-+2_5 0_f_St_._pa_u_I_._Is_th_a_t_w_h_at_yo_u_'_re_sa_y_in_g_? _

306 308that they were interested in buying? 1

A Pretty often. 2~ They would call you then? 3A Correct. 4G) If they got ahold of you live or they can get 5

ahold of you by voicemail, what was the usual 6request to you for information? 7

A They wanted to know if the home was for sale, if 8I knew who the owners were. 9

G) How would you have that access to that 10information? 11

A I guess they assumed since ny name was on the 12placard with my number, that was their first 13contact. 14

G) Have you ever had information about whether a 15homeowner is willing to sell a property that 16you've condemned? 17

A No. 18G) So have you told individuals who are interested 19

in properties that you don't have that 20information? 21

A Yes. 22G) ~lhat information have you been able to provide 23

to people that are interested in purchasing the 24properties that you've condemned? 25

12345678910111213141516171819

~£2232425

12

r

EXHIBIT 21


3113091 MR. SHOEMAKER: That's not the 1 A Could be.2 deposition procedure here. If I ask a 2 ~ What did you discuss with Pam James?3 question -- 3 A I don't recall. I believe I met them at one of~ MS. SEEBA: I will tell her not to 4 the properties. I believe it may have been

o answer. It's irrelevant. You can go to the 5 Frank Steinhauser's property.6 judge and say you want to find that out. 6 ~ Do you remember how many individuals from CSP7 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Did you get the 7 were at Steinhauser's property when you met8 order you sought? 8 them?9 A No. 9 A I think two, maybe three. I don't know. I have10 Q You didn't get the order? 10 to look at my notes.11 A No. 11 (Deposition Exhibit No. 4 was12 Q What county was that that you filed it? 12 marked for identification.)13 A Ramsey County. 13 ~ I'm showing you what has been marked Exhibit 4,14 ~ Have you ever met Katie Royce? 14 STP 1693. Take a look at that. Do you15 A Yes. 15 understand what that document is?16 ~ How often have you had contact with her? 16 A Yes.17 A Maybe twice. 17 ~ What is that?18 ~ When did you first meet her? 18 A It is correspondence between myself and the19 A I believe she came to our office. 19 attorney which is a probable cause sheet that20 ~ When was that? 20 was instituted by Maurine Dolan regarding the21 A I think it was way back when Andy first started. 21 prosecution of any citation.22 Q The year 2002? 22 ~ When did Maurine Dolan put that document23 A Yes. 23 together that you recall?24 ~ What was her purpose to coming to the NHPI 24 A When she came over to assist problem property~__0_f_fi_C_e? +-2_5 u_nl_'t_,_s_he_s_ta_t_ed_on_an_y_ci_t_at_i_on_th_a_t_w_e_c_ou_l_d__

310 312A I don't know. She was a guest of Andy's. 1 make notes on this probable cause sheet and it~ So you knew that she was a guest of Mr. Dawkins 2 was confidential. It was information between

when she came to the office? 3 the information between the attorney and I.A Yes. 4 MS. SEEBA: For the record, this~ Did you participate in the meeting? 5 may have been disclosed in error. I don't thinkA I don't remember. I believe she was bringing us 6 I have made the decision on that. Frank was

information of her organization that she was 7 also on this lawsuit.starting. 8 MR. SHOEMAKER: Well, this was

~ What organization was she starting? 9 produced by the City on the criminal case.A Community Stabilization Project. 10 MS. SEEBA: I know. It was waived~ So it was your understanding in 2002 that she 11 somehow. Was it the Steve Mark case or what?

was just starting that organization? 12 MR. SHOEMAKER: No. It was in theA That was my understanding, yes. 13 State of Minnesota versus Frank Steinhauser~ Did you meet with her during that meeting that 14 criminal case, and it was disclosed by the city

she had at NHPI? 15 attorneys as part of the disclosure under theA I :nay have. 16 criminal rules.~ You just don't recall now? 17 HS. SEEBA: I'm saying that --A No. 18 MR. SHOEMAKER: I think the city~ The others from CSP, Community Stabilization 19 then produced it again from what -- well, maybe

Project, did you have any contact with any of 20 not. Maybe this was the Bates number becausethe fellow workers with Katie Royce at any time? 21 it's a little smaller print.

A I believe I met a couple of her workers. 22 HS. SEEBA: I don't know. I just~ Do you remember any of their names? 23 understand that you have this, but I alsoA One was Pam. 24 understand from Ms. Martin that this is~ Pam James? 25 confidential information between her and

1234567891011121314151617181920r'

d.232425 EXHIBIT 21


315

also had many other city attorneys that werepresent as well at the problem propertymeetings.

Q Who are the other attorneys that were presentfrom the City Attorneys Office during the timeperiod from 2002 when Mr. Dawkins formed thedepartment moving forward?

A I donlt know their names.Q Megan Ryan, was she there ever?A I don't think so.Q You don't remember any of the other attorneys?A Laura Peton (ph) was one.Q Any others?A I don't know. There were a couple others that

were there. David something.Q Did any of the assistant city attorneys ever

attend inspections with you on properties?A Yes.Q Were those properties that were within the

problem properties units handling?A Yes.Q Which properties are we talking about where a

city attorney attended an inspection that youcan remember?

A I would have to look at the files. I would

'-t:.

232425

1234567891011121314151617181920~\"

3131 Assistant City Atto:ney Dolan. But you have the 1 A Well, she is an attorney and I thought she2 document and you can ask questions about it. 2 should know what's going on. She is also part3 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Ms. Martin, let's 3 of the City Attorneys Office.r- look at the top of the page here if you would. 4 Q So it was your notation to Maurine Dolan that~ The date here is June 7, 2004. Is that correct? 5 you felt that the lawsuit was a major lawsuit?6 A Correct. 6 A That I s what it says, a major lawsuit.7 Q Itls got L. Martin. Is that you? 7 ~ And that the lawsuit was against us. Who were8 A Yes. 8 you referring to?9 Q And the property address here was 921 York 9 A The city.10 Avenue? 10 ~ And yourself as ~lell?

11 A Yes. 11 A Yes.12 Q Now, would you have filled out a probable cause 12 ~ Did you consider Maurine Dolan to be part of the13 sheet for both of the properties since there 13 group that you're referring to here as us?14 were criminal citations on each property? 14 A She ls part of the city, so yes.15 A Probably not, if I put both citations together. 15 ~ She was part of the problem property unit as16 Q Here it says offense is failure to maintain 16 well. Correct?17 exterior structure. And then you've got the 17 A She was actually part of the City Attorneys18 statute which is actually the legislative code 18 Office who came over to assist us. We had many19 Chapter 3409. I want you to read under the 19 city attorneys.20 heading ordinance. Read that paragraph, would 20 Q During the fall of 2002 through 2003, Maurine21 you please? 21 Dolan was the city attorney that was assigned to22 A lIThis file has been open since May 15 of 2003. 22 the problem property unit that you were a member23 Orders have been sent to the P.O., II which is 23 of. Right?24 property owner, on October 23rd, 2003. The 24 A I donlt know that. I donlt know what the~__P_._O._'_s_a_tt_o_rn_e_y_i_s_P_at_r_ic_i_a_W_h_it_n_ey_wh_o_s_e_nt_a_-+_2_5 s_pe_c_if_i_cs_we_r_e_._Sh_e_w_a_s_t_h_er_e_,_y_es_._B_ut_we _

314 316letter to Marcia Moermond (Legislative Hearing 1Officer) on 4/26/04 requesting an extension to 2correct the deficiencies per the correction 3notice by June 1, 2004. On June 7th, I 4reinspected to find there has been no change to 5the property. I took a photo. This is the 6property owner who is part of a major lawsuit 7against us for harassment!!!11 8

Q Then there's three exclamation points there. 9Right? 10

A Yes. 11Q Were you sending this to ~laurine Dolan in the 12

City Attorneys Office? 13A Yes. 14~ Why would you want to indicate to her in the 15

last phrase there that this is the property 16owner that's part of the major lawsuit against 17us for harassment? 18

A Because as the attorney, I felt that she would 19want to know that he's part of an ongoing 20lawsuit. 21

~ Why would you feel that she should have that 22information? 23

A Because there is an ongoing lawsuit. 24Q How does that relate to a criminal tag? 25EXHIBIT 21


1234567891011121314151617181920~

tot.

232425

317 3191 usually note in the file who was present with 1 ~ So that would be one reason why you issued the2 me. 2 citation. Correct?~ ~ Do you remember an assistant city attorney 3 A Correct.('"' attending an inspection on one of Bee Vue I s 4 Q Was there an urgency to the matter?

o properties in the summer of 2004? 5 A I don't think so. I don't know.6 A Yes. 6 ~ How about was it a problem property, either of7 ~ Do you remember Maurine Dolan attending any 7 the York properties?8 inspections with you? 8 A 11mnot sure. It may have been on the list. It9 A Yes. 9 may be listed as a problem property.10 Q Was it your feeling that the claims of the 10 ~ If it wasn't on the list, then it wouldn't have11 property owners was that the group of inspectors 11 been a problem property. Is that what you're12 were harassing them? 12 saying?13 A 11msorry. 13 A Correct.14 ~ Look at your probable cause sheet here where 14 ~ How about a nuisance condition with regards to15 youlre making a notation to Maurine Dolan. And 15 the exterior issues that you had there?16 youlre saying the major lawsuit against us for 16 A Again, nuisance condition could be that itls17 harassment. Is that what youlre 17 still a violation. It's continued to be a18 characterization of the claims of the Plaintiffs 18 violation and not corrected.19 was at that time? They were suing you for 19 ~ Was there a hazardous or dangerous condition20 harassment? 20 that existed on either of the York properties?21 A At that time. I don't know. I don't know why I 21 A No.22 put that down there other than to notify her 22 ~ Was there a repeat chronic violation issue there23 that there was a pending lawsuit. 23 with regard to these properties that you issued24 ~ Look down below here. It says, explain why you 24 the criminal citation on?f'__l_'s_su_e_d_t_h_is_Cl_'t_at_i_o_n._D_o_yo_u_s_e_e_t_h_at_? -+-2_5__A_W_h_e_n_i_t_s_a_ys_r_ep_e_at_c_hr_o_nl_'c_v_i_o_la_t_io_n_s_, _

318 320A Yes. 1 basically, you're going out there for the same~ And there's eight items that are there. Is this 2 thing, which was paint, and it's still not taken

a form that you can pick and choose descriptions 3 care of. Then it's a repeat inspection.to put under that particular explain why you 4 ~ Is that a chronic violation if you've got toissued this citation heading? 5 come out there a second time?

A No. It's a form that already has all of those 6 A It could be.listed on the form. 7 ~ So if a homeowner doesn't get it done the first

~ I notice that some of them are in bold. 8 time, requests an extension, still doesn't haveCorrect? 9 it done, you'd consider that to be a chronic

A Yes. 10 violation?~ So is it that you bold out the ones that you 11 A I I d say it I S a repeat violation.

think are applicable? 12 ~ By the way, did you ever understand that MayorA Sometimes or it could have still been bold from 13 Kelly had wanted to have inspectors such as

the previous probable cause sheet. 14 yourself issue criminal citations on every~ So which of these eight items here that are 15 single code violation that you observed in the

listed under explain why you issued this 16 City of St. Paul?citation were applicable to this particular 921 17 A The only time I heard that was at Andy Dawkins'York property? 18 deposition.

A Again, I'd have to look at the file. But to 19 Q So you never heard that prior to that?enforce compliance is one reason we'd do a 20 A No.citation. 21 ~ Were there repeat multiple calls to this

~ On this property here you were issuing a 22 property, that is 921 and 915 York Avenue?criminal citation to enforce compliance with 23 A lid have to look at the file.your orders against Mr. Steinhauser? 24 ~ Wasn I t it merely an observation you made about

A Correct. 25 the exterior conditions and not a complaintEXHIBIT 21


3233211 about the property that made you go out 1 to her door and wanted to get inside the2 initially and actually write up the property? 2 property to do an inspection. Do you remember~ A I don't know. I'd have to look at the file. 3 that meeting with her at her door?C" . Q Your probable cause sheet was submitted to 4 A Yes.

o Maurine Dolan. What was your understanding then 5 Q How were you dressed typically when you did6 of what she did with your information? 6 inspections back in the 2002 time frame?7 A I don't know. 7 A Probably jeans and a polo shirt.8 Q Isn't it true that she brought criminal actions 8 Q Did you have your badge present so that an9 against Mr. Steinhauser in both of those tags? 9 occupant of a property that you contacted would10 A I don't know. Once the citation leaves our 10 be able to see that you were an inspector?11 office with the probable cause sheet that 11 A I may have.12 Maurine Dolan requested, it goes to the City 12 Q Otherwise, where would your badge have been?13 Attorneys Office and I don't know what happens 13 A I don't know.14 with it from there. 14 Q Was it around your neck as a normal course?15 Q She listed you as a witness. My question to you 15 A I don't remember in 2002 what badges we had.16 is whether or not you had any communications 16 Q Officer Koehnen, do you recall that he was with17 with her as to her court action as to that you 17 you during your first meeting with Lachaka18 were going to be a witness? 18 Cousette?19 A I don't recall that. I'd have to look at the 19 A Yes.20 fHe. 20 Q Who made the knock on Hs. Cousette' s apartment21 Q Do you know what happened to that particular 21 door? Did you knock? Was that the protocol22 criminal action against Mr. Steinhauser? 22 where you'd knock on the door or was that23 A No, I don't. 23 Officer Koehnen who would do that?24 Q Ever had any discussion with anybody as to the 24 A I would have to look at my notes. I believe I~__o_u_tc_o_m_e_o_f_t_ha_t_? -+-2_5 wa_s_t_h_e_o_n_e_t_h_at_kn_o_c_ke_d_o_n_th_e_d_o_or_. _

322 324A I may have. I would have to look at the file. 1 Q When you went out to a property, why would youQ But you don't have any independent recollection 2 bring Officer Koehnen with you?

of it? 3 A For my safety.A No. 4 Q So were there times that, because you were

(Deposition Exhibit No.5 was 5 concerned about your safety, you would havemarked for identification.) 6 Officer Koehnen do the knocking on the door?

Q This is Exhibit 5. I want you to read the 7 A No.Affidavit, which is an affidavit of Lachaka 8 Q So you were the one that would knock on the doorCousette. You may not have seen it before 9 trying to obtain consent to get inside thetoday, but it was disclosed to the city early on 10 property. Is that right?in the Steinhauser case. Would you take a 11 A Yes.couple minutes or as long as you want to read 12 Q What was your understanding as to your legalthat? Then I'm going to ask you some questions 13 right as a code inspector to gain entry to anyabout that 910 6th Street property. 14 residential structure that was occupied?

A (Witness examining document). 15 A If I had permission from the tenant or theQ ~le are focusing on the 910 6th Street property 16 owner.

owned by Mr. Steinhauser. The tenant in one of 17 Q If you had permission from the tenant or thethe units of that property, an upper unit of the 18 owner to gain access to the interior of theproperty, was Lachaka Cousette. Do you remember 19 property, then you were allowed -- you had themeeting Ms. Cousette? 20 authority to get inside. Is that right?

A Yes. 21 A Correct.Q When was the first time you met that tenant? 22 Q What if an owner refused access to the inside ofA I'd have to look at the file. 23 a property, what was the procedure that youQ Here she says that her first time that she met 24 believed you had to go through then?

with you was when you and Officer Koehnen carne 25 A You could send a notice requesting.

12345678910111213141516171819

~~~

232425 EXHIBIT 21


325 327

d.232425

12345678910111213141516171819

~

1 ~ Appointment letter? 1 970 Euclid owned by Mr. r.eysembourg?2 A An appointment letter, sure, or no entry letter. 2 A I'd have to look at the file, but I believe I~ ~ That would be a letter to the owner of the 3 filled out an application to have a judge sign~.- . property? 4 it.

o A Yes. 5 ~ Did you have to go downtown with that6 ~ Did you also have other means of communicating 6 application to get it signed?7 with the owner of the property if the owner did 7 A Yes.8 not allow you access to the property? 8 ~ So you had to leave your normal duties and go9 A If there's probable cause, you could also obtain 9 downtown and bring the application to the judge10 a search warrant. 10 or the judge's staff. Correct?11 ~ Before you got to that level, would you ever try 11 A Correct.12 to call the owner again and convince the owner 12 ~ Then you had to wait arol:nd for the judge to13 that the owner should allow you into the 13 issue the administrative search warrant?14 property or did you just take the first refusal 14 A Correct.15 as far as you could go with it? 15 ~ How long did that process take you with regard16 A What specific property? 11mnot sure. 16 to the 970 Euclid property?17 ~ 1'mjust wondering. Do you ever recall where 17 A I don I t recall.18 you had, you believe, a denial of access and you 18 ~ Was it a half a day?19 attempted to convince the owner to allow you in 19 A It could have been a half hour.20 the property? 20 ~ But you had to leave your of fice at White Bear21 A I don't recall anything like that. 21 Avenue and then drive downtown. Correct?22 ~ So your standard course would be to send a 22 A Yes.23 letter to the owner saying you wanted to gain 23 ~ Or you had to have had a property close by to24 access before you'd go get a search warrant? 24 downtown and then deviate over to the

~_A_u_s_ua_l_l_y ,_ye_s_. -+2_5 co_u_rt_h_o_us_e_,_g_e_t_t_he_a_pp_l_ic_a_t_io_n_,_a_pp_l_i_ca_t_io_n_t_o__

326 328~ Why would you send out a written notice to the 1 the jUdge, and then wait for the judge to issue

owner after a refusal of entry by the owner 2 the warrant. Correct?before you'd go get a search warrant? 3 A Yes.

A So I can show a pattern that I have made 4 ~ Have you ever had any other applications for anreasonable attempts. 5 administrative search warrant?

~ Then you'd use the appointment letter or no 6 A I believe there was one other one.entry letter in your application for the search 7 ~ In your career of over six years, youlve had towarrant? 8 apply for two warrants that were administrative

A Sure. 9 in nature?Q So how many times did you seek a search warrant 10 A From what I can recall yes.

to gain access to a property from the time you 11 ~ What was the other property where you appliedstarted as a code inspector in 2002, you became 12 for a search warrant?a problem property inspector in 2002? 13 A I don't remember.

A I don't remember. 14 ~ Was it a problem property?~ Is it more than once? 15 A I don't remember.A I don't knOll. 16 Q Do you remember if it was pr ior to 970 Euclid?~ Did you do it at least once? 17 A I don't.A I don I t knO't1. 18 ~ Let's go back here to your meeting with Ms.~ Have you ever done or filled out an application 19 Cousette. You had been downstairs inspecting

for a warrant? 20 the duplex unit on the main level prior toA Yes. 21 meeting with Ms. Cousette. Right?Q When was the last time you did that? 22 A Yes.A I believe that was for 970 Euclid. 23 Q And had you already determined that you wereQ What was the process you had to go through in 24 going to condemn the downstairs unit by the time

order to ge: an administrative search warrant on 25 you met with Lachaka Cousette?EXHIBIT 21


329 331

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

the doorway of her unit?A Yes.Q How far a'liay were you standing from her when you

were talking to her?A I was standing probably on the first step by the

door. Maurine Dolan was behind me, and Dean wasbehind Maurine.

Q So Officer Koehnen was further down the stairs,was he?

A Yes.Q Then the assistant city attorney was standing

behind you?A Correct.Q Was she on the same level as you were?A No.G Were you the one that was doing the talking with

the tenant, Ms. Cousette?A No.Q Who was talking to her?A I was actually doing the inspection and taking

photographs. So 11mnot sure if it was OfficerKoehnen or Maurine Dolan.

Q I'm talking about still when youlre at thedoorway with Ms. Cousette.

A I asked her for access.

d.

232425

1 A I don't recall. 1 Q How did you state that to her?2 Q When you went upstairs to meet with Lachaka 2 A I don't recall the exact words.3 Cousette, did you believe it was necessary for 3 Q Did you tell her that we I re here to do an~ you to gain entry to her unit to inspect her 4 inspection? There was three of you. Right?

o unit? 5 A I donlt recall what I exactly said to her.6 A At the time, yes, I was requesting for access. 6 Q Did she open the door sufficiently to see that7 Q Why were you wanting to look at that unit? 7 it was an inspector from the City of St. Paul?8 A Because of the violations that were in the lower 8 A I don't know. I canlt answer for her.9 unit. 9 Q You were standing on the first step. Correct?10 Q Did you make statements to Lachaka about the 10 A Yes.11 reason that you were at her door wanting to get 11 Q Could Y01 see her when yeu were talking to her12 access to her property, inside her property? 12 trying to gain entry?13 A I may have. 13 A Yes.14 Q Do you recall anything specifically what she 14 Q Was she hiding behind the door with just her15 sa id -- 15 head peaking around?16 A No. 16 A No. She had the door open.17 Q -- to you? Do you recall what you told her? 17 Q Where was she standing in the doorway?18 A Actually, I don't believe I did much talking 18 A I don't recall.19 wh:'le I was there. 19 Q 00 you recall if Ms. Dolan said anything about20 Q What did you specifically state to Ms. Cousette 20 gaining access to the property?21 as far as for your reason for being at her 21 A She may have. I donlt remember.22 property? 22 Q 00 you know how long it was before you believed23 A I don't recall. I remember asking f~r access 23 that you got consent to enter?24 and we were allowed access to go in. 24 A Just a few minutes.~ Q So you remember having a discussion with her in 25 Q So you had the discussion for a few minutes andC'·····------f-------

330 332then you were able to gain entrance to do yourinspection?

A Correct.Q Did Officer Koehnen say anything during this two

minute period where youlre discussing wanting toget inside of Ms. Cousette's apartment?

A I donlt recall him saying anything.Q Youlre sure it was two minutes that you were

standing there talking with her?A I said it was a few minutes. I donlt know.Q Did that seem to be a considerably long period

of time in trying to gain access?A No.Q Did you sense any hesitancy by Ms. Cousette to

allow you into her apartment?A She mentioned she was afraid that the owner

would be mad.Q What else did she say?A Once we were inside, she told us a story about

that she had pork chops or chicken or somethingsitting on her counter or table, and the ratswere so big they came by and they took the meatoff the table.

Q So that's what she told you?A Yes.

1234567891011121314151617181920r'

EXHIBIT 21


335

consent?A Sometimes.~ But not always?A Not always.Q What would be the determination for you as to

when you would indicate the conversations thatyou had with an occupant that you believesupported consent to a property?

A If I didn't have a witness with ~e.

Q So there you had two witnesses with you. Right?A Correct.Q Why was Maurine Dolan on that reinspection of

that property that day?A The city attorneys typically would corne out

possibly once a week or every two weeks just toreview files or if they had citations to talkabout to make sure they had photographs fortheir upcoming court cases or if they hadquestions on files. A lot of times they justride along.

Q Do you recall any of the charts that Mr. Dawkinshad in his office?

A Yes.Q What do you recall about those charts?A There was stuff everywhere.

t:.t.

232425

12345678910111213141516171819

~

3331 ~ What else did she say to you once she got inside 1 ~ But if you asked for access, she could have2 the property? 2 said, okay, come on in, and that would take ten~ A I recall her saying the kids had plugged the 3 seconds to have that conversation with her.e' toilet. Other than that, I really don't 4 Right?

::J remember much else. 5 A I don't know.6 ~ When she answered the door and you were standing 6 ~ So why did it take a few minutes before you felt7 there with Maurine Dolan and Officer Koehnen, 7 that you got access or consent to gain access to8 how was Lachaka Cousette dressed? Do you 8 her unit?9 remember that? 9 A I don't know.lOA I don't remember. 10 Q Do you remember anything else that was said11 Q Do you remember that she was in her night 11 during the few minutes that you talked to her at12 clothes? 12 the top of the stairs?13 A No, I don I t. 13 A She said, I believe, she had a child that was14 Q Did you identify yourself as Lisa Martin to 14 sleeping.15 Ms. Cousette? 15 Q Anything else you remember?16 A I believe I did. 16 A No.17 Q Did you identify Maurine Dolan as well to 17 Q Is there anything that I have missed as to what18 Ms. Cousette? 18 was said at the doorway with Ms. Cousette by you19 A I don't recall. 19 or Officer Koehnen or Maurine Dolan?20 Q Did you identify Officer Koehnen to Ms. 20 A As I stated, it was a while ago. No, I don I t21 Cousette? 21 remember anything else that stands out without22 A I don't recall. 22 looking at the file.23 Q Did you ask Ms. Cousette that you needed to come 23 Q Would you typically put in a file conversations24 into the apartment because the apartment 24 that you had with an occupant of a property in~__d_o_wn_s_ta_i_r_s_w_as_be_i_ng_c_on_d_em_n_ed_? -+-2_5 0_r_d_er_to_d_oc_Uffi_e_n_t_t_h_at_y_ou_ga_i_ne_d_ac_c_es_s_th_r_ou_g_h_

334 336A I don't remember saying that. 1Q If Ms. Cousette recalls that Officer Koehnen was 2

towering over her a couple feet away from her, 3would you say that the tenant is lying or 4doesn't remember what happened? 5

A It depends if it was when we first knocked on 6the door. Dean was a few steps behind me, but 7Dean is a large man. So if he was standing in 8the kitchen -- 9

Q I'm talking about at the time that Ms. Cousette 10opened the door. 11

A I find it very difficult for him to be towering 12over her when he's a few steps down. 13

Q Do you remember Ms. Cousette telling you she did 14not want you in her apartment? 15

A No, I don't recall that. 16Q Do you remember any body language by her that 17

indicated to you that she was hesitant to let 18you into her apartment? 19

A No. 20Q Why do you believe it took a few minutes for her 21

to provide you access to her apartment? 22A I don't know. I asked if we could come in. 23

Like I said, I don't know exactly what was 24stated and she allowed us access. 25EXHIBIT 21


339337~ How did he have these charts positioned in his 1 apartment unit, did you?

office? 2 A I believe so.A He had them on the wall. 3 ~ How long did that inspection take you?~ Do you remember the chart that we looked at here 4 A I don't recall.

~ with Mr. Dawkins the first day that folded out 5 ~ Was this a problem property that you had had6 to about half the table? 6 discussions with other problem property members7 A Yes. 7 in your unit prior to this inspection this8 ~ How did he have that positioned in his office? 8 morning where you talked with Ms. Cousette?9 A I believe it was just on his wall. 9 A I don't recall. But looking back at this, it10 ~ Did you show your badge to Ms. Cousette on that 10 shows it's on the problem property list.11 910 6th Street that we have been talking about 11 ~ So you may have had discussions with others12 before you gained entry? 12 about this particular prcperty?13 A I may have. I don't know. 13 A I may have.14 ~ Do you know if Officer Koehnen showed his badge 14 ~ Because Officer Koehnen was a member of the15 as well? 15 problem property unit, that may have been a16 A I don't recall. 16 reason why he was there that morning?17 ~ Do you remember how he had his badge displayed 17 A I'd have to look at the file.18 that day that he was there with you at the 18 ~ Did you write up code violations while you were19 doorway of Ms. Cousette's apartment? 19 in the apartment on a clipboard?20 A I don't recall. He typically wears it around 20 A Possibly, yes.21 his neck. 21 ~ And took pictures while you were in the22 ~ Did you tell Ms. Cousette that you had to come 22 apartment?23 into her property? 23 A That sounds fair.24 A I don't believe so. 24 ~ Did you as k Ms. Couset te about her plugged

~_~_D_id_YO_U_sa_y_t_h_at_th_a_t_w_as_th_e_re_a_so_n_f_o_r_t_he __--+-_2_5 t_oi_l_et_? _

338 340

12

f

t.'232425

1 police officer being present?2 A No.3 ~ Why did you have Officer Koehnen there when you4 had two female tenants that were occupying that5 duplex?6 A Officer Koehnen came with me to many of my7 properties.8 ~ But did you have some information that there9 might have been a security concern for you at10 that property and that's why you brought Officer11 Koehnen along?12 A No, I don't know who the tenants are on the13 properties.14 ~ So that morning Officer Koehnen was with you for15 what reason?16 A He was usually with me for safety reasons.17 ~ But not always. Correct?18 A Not always.19 ~ When you got access into the property,~ A Ms. Martin, what do you recall that you did?

('OF' I remember looking in the bathroom. I may havetaken a photograph. I believe I looked underthe sink. Otherwise, I would have to look atthe file.

~ So you did an inspection of the entire upstairs

1 A I believe she volunteered that information.2 ~ Did she say she had been trying to unplug it3 before telling her landlord, Mr. Steinhauser?4 A I don't recall that.5 ~ Do you remember telling her that it was6 Mr. Steinhauser's responsibility to unplug7 toilets, not the tenants?8 A I don't recall that either.9 ~ You may have said that to her?10 A I don't recall.11 ~ What is your general feeling about that? Do you12 believe that it's the owner's responsibility to13 unplug toilets that are plugged by a tenant14 putting too much toilet paper down a toilet?15 A The owner is responsible to make sure they have16 functional plumbing.17 ~ And if a tenant puts too much toilet paper and18 plugs up a toilet, whose responsibility is that19 from a code enforcement standpoint?20 A The owner would be responsible.21 ~ How about if a tenant puts things purposely into22 a toilet to intentionally plug up a toilet?23 Whose responsibility would that be, as far as24 you as a code inspector on a property?25 A Unfortunately, the owner is responsible for hisEXHIBIT 21


343

MS. SEEBA: Is that the end of thequestion?

~ So you did see her making written comments ondocuments during the meetings?

A That is correct.MS. SEEBA: Objection, form.

Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Have you everheard Mayor Kelly say that homeowners willcomply with the codes?

A Never.~ Did you ever meet the Mayor?A I believe I have.~ When did you meet him?A I believe there was a city picnic out at Como

Park.Q Did you talk with him personally?A I think I shook his hand and said hello.Q Do you have any concerns as to your role as a

code inspector and how it affects people'shomes?

341property. 1

~ Who took photographs inside of Lachaka 2Cousette's apartment during your inspection? 3I believe I did. 4Did Officer Koehnen walk around with you in the 5

6 apartment to look at the conditions that you 67 were observing? 78 A I don't believe so. 89 ~ Where was Officer Koehnen positioned during your 910 inspection? 1011 A I believe Officer Koehnen and Maurine Dolan and 1112 the tenant were in the kitchen. 1213 ~ Did you overhear any conversations that they 1314 had? 1415 A No, I did not. 1516 ~ Don't you think it would be important for you to 1617 show your badge at the doorway when you're 1718 seeking to gain consent from Ms. Cousette to 1819 enter her apartment? 1920 A Yes. 2021 ~ But you don't recall showing your badge to her? 21 MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes.22 A I may have. I don't recall. 22 MS. SEEBA: Form.23 ~ How many other inspections of Mr. Steinhauser's 23 ~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) From a standpoint24 properties did any of the assistant city 24 of when you're issuing orders against~__a_t_to_r_ne_y_s_a_tt_e_nd_wl_'t_h_y_OU_? --+_2_5 h_om_e_ow_n_e_rs_,_w_h_et_h_er_t_he_y_'r_e_r_e_nt_a_l_p_ro_p_e_rt_y _

342 344

123

r'A~

1 A I don't know.2 ~ Are there minutes that are available for the3 problem property meetings that you attended from4 the fall of 2002 forward?5 A I don I t know.6 ~ The secretary office manager, Ms. McGinn, did7 she take notes during the meetings?8 A I'm not sure. You'd have to ask her.9 ~ She would have done some type of notation in10 order to update the problem property reports.11 Correct?12 A Possibly. I don't know. You'd have to ask her.13 Q But did you see her writing notes during any of14 the meetings?15 A Usually she'd write if something was closed and16 then she'd update the file.17 Q So she was writing on documents during the18 meetings?19 A It's possible, yes.20 ~ I'm not asking if it's possible. Did you~ observe that she was making writings or she was~L entering some type of information during the23 meetings?24 A As I stated, she would write on there if it was25 closed or not.

1 owners or other owners, do you ever have any2 concern that the owner might not have the3 ability to afford what you're requiring of them?4 A No, I don't treat rental properties or owner5 occupied or any of the properties differently.6 My job is to inspect the homes and note the7 violations.8 Q Did you ever have any discussion with9 Mr. Dawkins at any time about the possible10 adverse effect of having an increase in code11 enforcement in the City of St. Paul in that it12 may end up with a lot of properties being13 abandoned because people wouldn't be able to14 afford the cost of repairs?15 A I may have. I don't recall that.16 ~ You recall Mr. Dawkins' testimony where he was17 talking about the tipping point from a Baltimore18 example where code enforcement was wrapped up19 and the city ended up with a lot of vacant20 properties? Do you reme]her that testimony?21 A Yes.22 ~ Did you ever have any discussions with23 Mr. Dawkins regarding that subject in any shape,24 fashion or form?25 A Not that I recall.EXHIBIT 21


347

£.t.232425

3451 Q Did you think Mr. Dawkins, at any time he was a 1 was a slum lord?2 director of code enforcement, had any concern 2 A Never.~ about the Randy Kelly standard of strict code 3 Q Did you tell her that he preys on poor people?f!' "- enforcement having an adverse effect on people 4 A Never.~ being able to live in their homes? 5 Q And that he preys on African Americans?6 A I don't know. You'd have to ask Andy. 6 A Never.7 Q You never heard ~lr. Dawkins ever raise any 7 Q And that he also takes advantage of people that8 concern to you, did he? 8 cannot afford it?9 A No. 9 A Never.10 Q About that issue? 10 Q Have you ever had anyone tell you that that's11 A No. 11 their view of Mr. Steinhauser?12 Q This 276 Forbes property that Pamela Jaworski 12 A Not that I can recall.13 owned, what type of involvement, if any, did you 13 Q How about CSP personnel, have they ever told you14 have on that particular property? 14 that they had a negative view of15 A I remember doing a couple inspections at that 15 Mr. Steinhauser?16 property. 16 A The only person that I ever had a conversation17 Q Do you understand that the owner, Pamela 17 about Mr, Steinhauser with was Sara Anderson.18 Jaworski, has apparently a relative that works 18 Q You had a meeting with Sara Anderson and19 for the police department? 19 Mr. Steinhauser and Mr. Koehnen was with you.20 A No, I did not know that. 20 Correct?21 Q Never heard that before today? 21 A Correct,22 A Never, 22 Q What do you recall being discussed during that23 Q Let's go back to the inspection that you 23 meeting?24 performed on Lachaka Cousette' s property, Do 24 A I don't remember what property we were talking~__y_O_u_r_em_emb_er_te_l_ll_'n_9_M_s_'_co_u_se_t_te_th_a_t_h_er_un_i_t_-t_2_5 a_bo_u_t_,_M_r_,_S_te_i_nh_a_us_e_r_,_ap_p_ar_e_nt_l_y_,_ha_d_t_a_lk_e_d__

346 348was going to be condemned and she would have to 1 to Andy Dawkins regarding his properties. And,leave the property? 2 apparently, they had some understanding, Then

A I may have. 3 in the meantime I believe that's when I hadQ But you did condemn her unit, did you not, that 4 condemned 910 6th Street. So Mr. Steinhauser

day? 5 was very upset. He felt Mr. Dawkins lied toA I may have. I don't know without looking at the 6 him. He told Dean and I that he was going to

file. 7 get Mr. Dawkins and Randy Kelly, This hadQ You don't have any recollection, as you sit here 8 nothing to do with us, but he was going to bring

today, that you condemned that particular duplex 9 them down.and both of the occupants were required by the 10 We did a meeting. Frank was angry.placard that you posted to vacate the property? 11 I believe we showed him some pictures. Frank

A I'd have to look at the file. 12 ended up leaving the meeting and Sara AndersonQ Your answer is you don't have any independent 13 stayed. At that point, she basically told us

recollection of throwing people out of their 14 that her husband used to work for Frank as ahomes? 15 maintenance person. But because he would never

MS. SEEBA: Objection, form. She 16 put money back into his properties to make anyis a code inspector. So I object to the 17 repairs, her husband ended up leaving.question. 18 Q You seem to recall a lot of detail about that

Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) There you 19 meeting. Anything else you remember?condemned that property. Correct? 20 A No.

A Yes. 21 Q Anything else that Sara Anderson told you duringQ And you required the occupants to leave their 22 that meeting?

home. Correct? 23 A No.A I believe so. 24 Q That you can recall today?Q Did you tell Ms. Cousette that Mr. Steinhauser 25 A Just that she places people in Frank's homes.

1234567891011121314151617181920~

EXHIBIT 21


351349Q When did you meet Sara Anderson prior to that 1 A Absolutely not.

meeting with Mr. Steinhauser? 2 Q And your testimony is that no one from CSP toldA I don't know if I met her before that meeting. 3 you to condemn Mr. Steinhauser's properties thatQ Had you ever run into any tenants from Project 4 you condemned?

:> Hope prior to Mr. Steinhauser? 5 A That is correct.6 A I may have. 6 Q But you're not sure who else may have told you7 Q You just don't recall? 7 to condemn the property?8 A I don't recall. 8 A No. As I stated, when I write up my orders, it9 Q You may have met Sara Anderson prior to that 9 goes to Steve Magner. He makes the decision.10 meeting? 10 Q Do you remember anything else that was said by11 A I could have, yes. 11 Ms. Cousette at any time during the time you12 Q Did you tell Lachaka Cousette that CSP would 12 were there at her apartment other than what13 find her a place to stay? 13 you've told me?14 A I don't remember saying that. 14 A No. As I stated, I was doing an inspection and15 Q Do you recall Lachaka Cousette telling you, at 15 she was in the kitchen.16 the time that you were in her apartment, that 16 Q So did you have any conversations with17 Mr. Steinhauser had been at the property and was 17 Ms. Cousette other than at the doorway to gain18 working on the property? 18 entrance?19 A She may have. I don't recall that. 19 A I don't recall. I think we may have talked20 Q Did you know Mr. Steinhauser had been at the 20 briefly when she was telling us the story about21 property working on your previous orders on the 21 the rats taking the meat off the table or the22 property? 22 counter. Other than that, I don't believe I23 A I don't remember. I'd have to look at the file. 23 did.24 Q You don't have any independent recollection, as 24 Q Did Ms. Dolan ever tell you that she had any~ yo_u_s_i_t_h_er_e_t_o_da_y_,_a_s_t_o_w_h_et_h_er_o_r_n_ot -t-2_5 co_n_v_er_s_at_i_on_s_w_i_t_h_t_he_te_n_an_t_,_M_s_._C_ou_s_et_t_e' _

350 352

12

f

1 Mr. Steinhauser was attempting to respond to2 your correction orders on the property before3 the time you condem.~ed the property?4 A As I stated, I'd have to look at the file.5 Q Who told you to condemn Mr. Steinhauser's6 910 6th Street property? Was it Mr. Dawkins?7 A I don't recall.8 ~ You don't recall if he told you to do it or if9 someone else told you to condemn it?10 A Correct.11 Q Did CSP ask you to condemn Mr. Steinhauser's12 property located at 910 6th Street?13 A Not that I recall.14 Q They may have told you to condemn it?15 A I don't recall them ever saying anything about16 his property.17 Q They got an advanced notice that the city was18 considering condemning more than one of19 Mr. Steinhauser's properties. And, in fact, in20 the Harrilal property, they actually flyered~ Ms. Harrilal's property saying that the city was~l considering condemning her property. Have you23 ever seen any of those fliers by CSP where24 they're giving notification to tenants that the25 city is considering condemning a property?

1 during the time she was in the kitchen with2 Officer Koehnen and Ms. Cousette?3 A I didn't ask Maurine what her conversation was.4 Q Have you ever referred to a property owner in5 the City of St. Paul as a slum lord?6 A Never.7 Q Have you ever heard anyone else in your8 department ever refer to a property owner as a9 slum lord?10 A No.11 Q How about CSP personnel, have they ever used12 that phrase?13 A Not that I know of.14 Q Have you ever heard any of the police officers15 you worked with use derogatory terms about16 occupants of properties in the City of St. Paul?17 A No.18 Q Not once you haven't?19 A No.20 Q Have you ever heard the phrase undesirables?21 A No.22 Q How about down and out?23 A No.24 Q Have you ever heard the phrase a sad sack?25 A No.EXHIBIT 21


355

A There was garbage bags on the ground.Q Did you then give notice to the owner that that

was a violation of the code?A Yes. I knocked on the door and spoke with him.Q What was his response to that?A That held take care of it right away.Q Did he take care of it?A Yes. He sent his kids right outside.Q While you were there, the issue was rectified?A Yes.Q To your satisfaction?A Yes.Q What was the nature of the next complaint on the

property?A It was like tall grass and weeds or something.Q Did you go out and look at that?A Yes.Q What did you find as to whether that complaint

had any merit?A It was unfounded.Q It was unfounded in what way?A There was no tall grass and weeds.Q So the yard was actually maintained within the

code?A Correct.

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

'-I.

232425

1234567891011121314151617181920~

123r

353Q Have you ever come across any disagreements with 1 A Yes.

property owners and neighbors that you felt Nere 2 Q What other type of complaints?racial in nature? 3 A Garbage.

A Can you repeat the question? 4 Q Were these complaints handled by other~ Q As an inspector for over six years, have you 5 inspectors in your department?6 ever come in contact with a situation where you 6 A They could have been.7 believe there was a racial undertone to the 7 Q What do you recall the complaint being when you8 dispute between neighboring property owners? 8 got assigned the file on that matter?9 A Yes. 9 A I remember it was a dog complaint. And then a10 Q When was that? 10 few days later, I had a complaint of a garbage.11 A Probably in 2003, I believe. 11 And then a few days later, I had a complaint on12 Q What part of the city was that? 12 grass.13 A It was off of Old Hudson Road. 13 Q All complaints against the same property owned14 Q Describe the property that was the subject of a 14 by the African American, a man with eight to ten15 complaint. 15 children?16 A It was a single family horne. I believe the 16 A Yes,17 gentleman had like eight or ten kids. 17 Q Did you go out at any time and investigate18 Q The gentleman, what race was he? 18 whether those complaints were founded?19 A He was black. 19 A Every time.20 Q And he had eight or ten African American kids? 20 Q And the first time you investigated, what did21 A They were biracial. 21 you determine?22 Q What type of a house was it? 22 A The dogs were in the back yard. They weren I t23 A Atwo story. 23 running loose.24 Q How many bedrooms? 24 Q What about the second time you investigated the

f'_A_I_b_e_l1_'e_ve_it_wa_s_fo_u_r_o_r_f_iv_e_b_e_d_ro_o_ms_, -t-2_5 c_om_p_la_i_nt_? _

354 356Q Was there a complaint that was lodged with the

city?A There were many complaints.Q How did you first get notice of a complaint on

that property?A It was -- I don't remember how I first got

there.Q But you had some role in that particular dispute

between property owners?A Yes.Q Was it your understanding the individual that

was making the complaint was a neighboringproperty owner?

A Yes.Q Was it one person that was making a complaint?A Yes.Q Had that individual made repeated complaints

about the property by the time you got thecomplaint?

A Yes.Q What were the nature of the complaints?A Dog complaints.Q Arunning loose dog, that type of a thing?A Yes.Q Dog on the loose? EXHIBIT 21


359

~ Have you ever worked on the east side of thecity?

A I may have, yes.~ Is your understanding that there is a higher

percentage of rats coming through toilets on theeast side through those older properties?

A I'm not aware of that, no.~ You haven't gained that awareness?A No.~ What do you look for from the standpoint of rat

feces to make a determination as to the severityof the rat occupation in a property?

A Here again, I guess I don't have a definition ifone rat or twenty rats is considered severe oran infestation. If there is any evidence, againwe use the macros and ask that any type ofrodents be exterminated.

~ What kind of signs would you be looking forinside of a property for signs of infestation?

A Probably droppings or dead rats or live rats.Q Any other type of evidence?A Holes.Q What are you looking for when you see a

dropping? Is there something there you'relooking for to determine how long rodents have

232425

3571 ~ Did you have any further complaints on the 1 during that period?2 property? 2 A I have no idea. Nobody ever mentioned anything.3 A I believe I did. 3 ~ What do you recall seeing at the 910 6th Street~ ~ What were they? 4 with regards to evidence of rodent infestation?~ A Still similar complaints. 5 A I remember there was a rat in the front of the6 ~ How many complaints do you recall on that 6 property.7 property during that 2003 time frame? 7 ~ By front, do you mean out on the boulevard or8 A Six, eight. 8 next to the foundation or what?9 ~ The one complaint you found, it was 9 A Next to the foundation under the front window.10 substantiated because there were trash bags on 10 ~ What was the problem with the foundation on the11 the ground? 11 property, do you remember that?12 A Correct. 12 A I don't remember it off the top of my head. I'd13 ~ It was taken care of by the owner? 13 have to look at the file and the photographs.14 A Correct. 14 ~ On the 1024 Euclid property, you indicated there15 ~ Any other complaints -- did you ever make a 15 was infestation there of rodents. What16 determination that they had a basis as well? 16 observation did you make that brought you to17 A I believe most of the complaints were unfounded. 17 that conclusion on that property?18 ~ So did you have a discussion with the property 18 A Again, I'd have to look at the file and the19 owner at any time about the fact that these 19 photographs.20 complaints that were being entered into the 20 ~ What do you recall? Do you recall seeing21 system were unfounded? 21 evidence of mice or --22 A I may have. 22 A I don't recall.23 ~ You don't remember a discussion with the -- 23 ~ -- a dead rat?24 A Iihenever I would -- I think the couple times he 24 A I have done many inspections on Euclid, so I~__d_i_d_h_av_e_g_a_rb_a_ge_ba_g_s,_I_j_u_st_re_m_in_d_ed_h_im_ke_e_p_-I-2_5 d_on_'_t_k_no_w_. _

358 360the dog in the yard, keep the grass cut, stuff 1like that, to remind him of the different 2complaints that can come in. Obviously, we 3can't tell him where the complaints are coming 4from. 5

~ Did you know or learn at any time that 6Mr. Steinhauser had lost his father to death 7back in the 2002 time frame? 8

A No, I didn't. 9~ Did you at any time learn that Mr. Steinhauser's 10

son had died during the time that you were 11issuing code notices on his properties? 12

A No, I did not. 13~ Did you learn that Mr. Steinhauser's brother had 14

also passed away during that time frame? 15A No, I did not. 16~ So you didn't have any of that information at 17

the time that you were hitting Mr. Steinhauser's 18property between 2000 and 2004 with code 19notices? 20

A No, I didn't. 21MS. SEEBA: Objection, form. 22

~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you know if 23anyone else in your department knew that 24Mr. Steinhauser had lost three family members 25

1234567891011121314151617181920~

EXHIBIT 21


361 363

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

t.(.

232425

1234567891011121314151617181920~

1 been in a property? 1 Q How about Barb Benson?2 A No. 2 A No.~ Q Were you chased out of the basement by rats at 3 Q Do you think overcrowding in an apartment couldC·' 1024 Euclid? 4 lead to excessive wear and tear on an apartment?

o A I donlt recall that. 5 A I don't deal with apartments, I only deal with6 Q If you said that to someone, why would you have 6 single family and duplexes.7 said that? 7 Q 11mtalking about rental, single families or8 A I donlt remember ever saying that. 8 duplexes. Do you think overcrowding in those9 Q Have you ever been chased out of a basement in 9 units could lead to excessive wear and tear from10 the City of St. Paul as a code inspector because 10 your experience?11 of rats? 11 A It I s possible, yes.12 A I donlt believe so. 12 Q Did you ever reach a conclusion that13 Q Do you know of anybody that has? 13 Mr. Steinhauser was not the one responsible for14 A No. 14 the physical conditions that you observed on 91015 Q That would be pretty unusual, would it not, to 15 6th Street or 1024 Euclid?16 be -- have a rat infestation that would cause 16 A I'd have to look at my notes. Oftentimes,17 someone to have to be chased out of a basement? 17 damage is caused by tenants and not the owners,18 A That would sound severe to me. 18 but itls still the owner's responsibility to19 Q Did you know that the 910 6th Street property 19 make the repairs.20 that was on the problem property list was put 20 Q When you condemned 910 6th Street, at that time21 there by Councilmember Lantry? 21 of the condemnation, you knew ~lr, Steinhauser22 A I have no recollection of that at all. 22 had been there at the property working.23 Q You don't know that she was involved in trying 23 Correct?24 to shut that property down? 24 A I don I t recall that, like I stated earlier. I

~_A_N_o_t_a_t_a_ll_' -t_2_5 c_OU_l_d_l_OO_k_at_my_no_t_es_, _

362 364Q The property next door to Mr. Steinhauserls 910

6th Street, did you know the owner in 2002?A Who was it?Q I wanted to know if you knew the owner.A I donlt know.Q A deputy sheriff?A No.Q You don't know who that owner was there?A No.Q Was the lower unit in 910 6th Street over

crowded? Is that one of the reasons why youcondemned the property?

A I donlt recall. lid have to look at my notes.Q Did you know a woman who lived a couple doors

down from 910 6th Street?A What is her name?Q I just wanted to know if you knew a woman,A I know lots of women,Q Lorraine Payne (phi?A live never heard of her.Q You don I t know she was married to a police

officer?A No. I don't even know who she is.Q Have you ever met Councilmember Thune?A No. EXHIBIT 21


365 3671 something out to him about the apartment? 1 Q Even though he corrected the life safety issues2 A Again, I'd have to look at the file to get 2 so that the tenant could remain there, he still~ specifics. 3 had to go through a code compliance, did he not?C' Q Other inspectors that we have deposed have said 4 A If that's what it said on the form. I don't

~ that their dealings with Mr. Steinhauser, he was 5 have the file in front of me to reference.6 responsive to them. Did you believe that 1024 6 Q The point is that if Mr. Steinhauser corrected7 Euclid and 910 6th Street were exceptions? 7 the life safety issues, that would be your basis8 A Again, I'd have to look at the file. I thought 8 for saying that the tenant would have a legal9 I had a good working relationship with 9 right to be in the property occupying the10 Mr. Steinhauser. So I'm not sure. 10 property. Is that correct?11 Q When was it that you made the determination you 11 A No. If it's stated in the condemnation that he12 had a good working relationship with 12 had to have a code compliance inspection prior13 Mr. Steinhauser? 13 to the placard being lifted or someone living14 A I'd run into Frank and his friend Jerry often at 14 there, that's what he needed to do. I believe15 the Coffee Cup during lunch hours. If we 15 it was his attorney, Patricia Whitney, who16 happened to bump into them over at York, we'd 16 agreed to the code compliance inspection.17 stop in. He'd tell us about his Civil War 17 Q Were you present during those conversations with18 cannon. We had a decent working relationship. 18 Patricia Whitney, attorney for Mr. Steinhauser,19 Q Was this prior to the condemnations of 910 6th 19 that you say led to an agreement for20 Street and 1024 Euclid in the fall of 2002? 20 Mr. Steinhauser to have a code compliance?21 A I don't remember. 21 A I believe I was.22 Q Did Legal Aid attorneys threaten to sue you if 22 Q You were in court, were you?23 you tried to make the downstairs tenant at 910 23 A Yes.24 6th Street vacate the property? 24 Q Where were those conversations that took place

~_A_N_ot_th_a_t_I_re_c_al_I_. +-2_5 b_et_w_ee_n_p_a_tr_i_c_ia_Wh_i_tn_e_y,_as_a_tt_o_rn_e_y_f_or _

366 36812345678910111213141516171819

~t.t..232425

Q Wasn't that tenant allowed to stay in thatcondemned building?

A I don't remember.Q They were allowed to stay in that building for

months. Do you re[ember that?A No, I don't remember that.Q Wouldn't that concern you that you had condemned

a building because it was unhabitable underChapter 34 according to you and a tenant wasallowed to stay in the property for months?

A I don't have a recollection of that happening.Q Would that be a concern to you?A Sure.Q Why would that be a concern to you?A Because if it's unfit for anyone to be living

there, nobody should be living there.Q So if a tenant was allowed to live there for a

couple months, wouldn't that indicate to youthat the unit actually had not been in acondemnable state at the time that you condemnedthe property?

A No.Q What would it lead you to believe?A That Mr. Steinhauser corrected the life safety

violations for that tenant to remain there.

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

Mr. Steinhauser, and yourself?A It was, actually, Maurine Dolan and Patricia

Whitney, myself, and I believe Frank was there,and I believe it was in a side conference room.

Q Who suggested that a code compliance be arequirement of the tenant remedy settlement?

A I don't remember.Q Did you know what a code compliance was at that

time?A It was something that we utilized on many cases.Q So when you went in to the tenant remedy meeting

with Mr. Steinhauser, his attorney, and ~aurine

Dolan, you had already used the code compliancein many cases?

A I may have. I don't know. I'd have to look atthe specific files.

Q You just said at the time you were meeting withMr. Steinhauser and Ms. Whitney that a codecompliance was used in many cases. So myquestion is: How did you reach thatunderstanding that a code compliance was used inmany cases when you were meeting withMr. Steinhauser and his attorney?

A I don't know.Q Who suggested the code compliance?EXHIBIT 21


371

A That was probably 2002.~ Was that the first time that you remember

meeting Mr. Johnson?A Yes.~ What did you, Mr. Magner and Mr. Senty de in

response to Mr. Johnson expressing hisdisapproval for you guys, inspectors to come onhis property?

A I donlt know what happened with Mr. Magner andMr. Senty. I left to do my inspection on Forbesand left.

~ What do you recall specifically that Mr. Johnsonwas saying? You said he was yelling?

A He was yelling. He was very upset. I don'tknow. He had some history with Mr. Magner. I'mnot sure what it was about. I did not knowMr. Johnson at that time.

Q Do you remember anything specific that Mr.Johnson said?

A That he didn't want me on his property. Iwasnlt even going to his property, so I'm notsure.

~ How far away were you from Mr. Johnson when hewas addressing you?

A I was on the sidewalk by the front of the home.

~t.

232425

369~IS. SEEBA: Asked and answered. 1 even know who he was.

A I don't know. 2 ~ You were walking down from 276 Forbes?~ (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) You don't remember 3 A No. Actually, I parked by his property and was

if that was yourself making that suggestion? 4 getting out with Steve and everyone else.:> A No, I donlt. 5 ~ Who else was with you besides Steve?6 ~ Do you know if Maurine Dolan as assistant city 6 A I think it was Steve Magner and Denny Senty.7 attorney had a working knowledge as to what a 7 ~ And yourself?8 code compliance was? 8 A Yes.9 A I donlt know what her knowledge was. 9 ~ You came in a couple of cars?10 ~ Did she say what it was in her discussions with 10 A Yes.11 Mr. Steinhauser and his attorney? 11 ~ What was the purpose of coming to Mr. Johnson IS

12 A She may have. I don't recall. 12 property?13 ~ You don't remember any discussion as to what a 13 A I don't know why Mr. Magner and Mr. Senty were14 code compliance actually was during that 14 going there.15 particular meeting? 15 ~ Were you driving your own car?16 A No, I don I t recall. 16 A I don't remember which vehicle I was driving.17 ~ Do you remember that it was represented by 17 ~ So Mr. Johnson was outside of his property at18 Ms. Dolan that it was an as built code 18 the time?19 compliance? 19 A Yes.20 A No, I don't. 20 ~ Where were you coming from?21 Q Do you remember hearing the term or the phrase 21 A I don't remember. I just --22 as built code compliance? 22 Q Do you remember him making statenents to you to23 A No. 23 stay off the property?24 ~ Do you know if there's such a thing? 24 A Yes.~_A_N_O_. -I-2_5__~_W_ha_t_y_e_a_r_w_as_th_i_s?_. _

370 372~ So did Ms. Whitney ask what a code compliance 1

meant during that meeting? 2A She may have. I don't recall. 3~ What is your personal view of Steve Johnson as a 4

landlord in the City of St. Paul during the 5times you worked with him? 6

A What is my opinion of Mr. Johnson? 7~ Right, as a landlord. 8A I have only dealt with him a few times. 9~ Which properties have you dealt with Mr. Johnson 10

on? 11A 469 Whitall. And the very first time I met him 12

was somewhere down by Forbes. 13Q On a Forbes property? 14A Yep. I wasn't involved in that one. I happened 15

to be down there when Steve Magner was meeting 16him. 17

~ So Mr. Magner was already meeting with Mr. Steve 18Johnson at the property on Forbes? 19

A Right. 20Q Do you remember the reason that Mr. Magner gave 21

for having to meet with Mr. Johnson? 22A I donlt, but I was doing an inspection at 276 23

Forbes. And Mr. Johnson was yelling saying that 24he didn't want me on his property. I didn't 25

1234567891011121314151617181920r

12

.J..C1'. ,

EXHIBIT 21


A Yes.~ What did you tell her?A I told her I was with code enforcement. I had a

complaint. I was wondering if I could corne into do an inspection. Again, I don't recall thespecifics. But she had mentioned there was athermostat that still wasn't working. I askedif I could look at it. She said absolutely.And so I went in.

~ What do you recall doing when you went inside?A I looked at the thermostat. I believe the

bathroom door may have been kicked off and somecabinets and something -- I don't know. I'dhave to look at the file.

~ So if a tenant complained about no heat, whatwas your protocol to check on that when you gotinside a property?

A To contact the owner.~ Contact the owner to get it rectified?A Right.~ In a case where you went out and did an

inspection, what would be the simplest way foryou as an inspector to determine whether or notthe heat unit, the furnace was in working order?

A Usually, if there's no heat, you can feel when

LL.

232425

12

~

373 375~ Where was he located? 1 however, that you arrived at the property justA On the steps. 2 shortly after Mr. Johnson had left the property?~ Did he say anything else after you turned to 3 A That's what he said, yes.

leave the front of his property? 4 ~ Did you observe Mr. Johnson at the propertyo A Nope. I don't think I ever saw him again until 5 prior to your arriving?6 possibly 469 Whitall. 6 A Never saw him, no.7 ~ And you had some code orders issued on his 7 ~ Do you remember any conversations you had with8 property at 469 Whitall. Correct? 8 the tenant at that property?9 A Correct. 9 A Yes. There were two males that were in the10 ~ Did you ha'le conversations with Mr. Johnson 10 back.11 about those code issues? 11 ~ African American males?12 A Yes. 12 A Yes.13 ~ l'lhat do you recall that you told him? 13 ~ Who else was at the property?14 A I remember he had questions regarding an order 14 A Myself and Dean Koehnen.15 that I sent. I believe it was windows and 15 ~ Anyone else that was inside the property?16 screens or something, and he wanted me to be 16 A Yeah. They said that the tenant was inside.17 more specific. I told him I'd go back to the 17 She had the door open. She was making breakfast18 property and note exactly which windows. He 18 or something.19 wanted to know south side, north side. So I 19 ~ She had the door to the outside open?20 went back out there. It was a day that Maurine 20 A Yep, and it was cold.21 Dolan happened to be with us. So it was Dean, 21 ~ Did you come up to the doorway then?22 myself and Maurine Dolan who went back to the 22 A Yeah.23 property. 23 ~ Did you talk to her?24 ~ When you went back to the property, was 24 A Yes, I did.~__M_r_._J_oh_n_so_n_t_h_er_e_? +-2_5__~_T_hr_o_ug_h_th_e_d_o_or_w_ay_? _

374 376A No. 1~ He was not there at the property at that time? 2A No. 3~ Did you gain access to the entry of the property 4

at that time? 5A No, never. 6~ Did you just do an exterior inspection? 7A Yes. 8~ Did you ever gain access to any of Mr. Johnson's 9

other properties? 10A I believe I did. 11~ 606 Edmund? 12A I don't recall the exact property or address. 13~ Did you talk to an African American tenant at 14

606 Edmund and gain access to the property? 15A It's possible. I'd have to look at the file. 16~ Told the tenant that you had to come in the 17

property to do the inspection? 18A No. 19~ And you and Officer Koehnen came into the 20

property. Do you recall that? 21A As I stated, I recall going to some of his 22

properties. Without the file, I don't recall 23the specifics. 24

~ Do you remember that particular property, 25

1234567891011121314151617181920r'

EXHIBIT 21


379

tot.232425

12345678910111213141516171819

~

3771 yuu get into the property if it's cold or not. 1 eminent would be taken care of before the2 ~ So that may be is the thermostat that's set too 2 occupancy of the unit was allowed?~ low. Right? 3 A Yes.

C" A It could be. 4 Q And then potential life safety issues could waitb Q Atenant could turn the thermostat down so that 5 for later repair?6 there is no heat. Right? 6 A Sure.7 A Yes. 7 ~ The same would go for things like guardrails,8 ~ Ever seen that kind of a situation? 8 handrails, siding and roofs. You wouldn't9 A Not that I can recall. 9 consider that to be emergency type repair that10 Q Where a tenant is blaming the landlord because a 10 would be necessary, do you?11 tenant doesn't want to pay rent. So they turn 11 A Each case is different. But, no, not12 the heat down and open the ;,rindows and have you 12 necessarily.13 come out to investigate the lack of heat. Have 13 Q Do you remember a discussion with14 you ever had that situation? 14 Mr. Meysembourg on a reinspection of his15 A Not that I know of. It may have happened. 15 property where16 ~ Have you ever had a situation where you felt the 16 Mr. Magner and Officer Koehnen were present?17 tenant was trying to use you as a code inspector 17 A Yes.18 to gain leverage against the landlord? 18 ~ During that time, did you gain access to the19 A Not that I can recall. 19 property, to the interior of the property?20 Q That I s never happened to you in six years as a 20 A I believe we did.21 code inspector? 21 Q Do you remember going into the basement during22 A It may have. 22 that visit?23 Q You don't remember that? 23 A Yes.24 A No. 24 Q Did you go in the basement yourself?~_Q_I_s_n '_t_t_h_at_fr_e_qu_e_nt_l_y_d_on_e_w_h_e_n_a_t_e_na_n_t_c_a_n'_t_--fo_2_5__A_I_w_a_s_w_i_th_Mr_._~_!a_gn_e_r_. _

378 380pay the rent and is seeking to gain some 1 Q How about Mr. Koehnen, where was he during thatleverage with the landlord? 2 interior inspection?

A Not that I know of. 3 A I don't recall. I believe he was outside.Q The tenant you said there on 606 Ed~und was 4 Q What was the purpose for going into the

having some heat trouble? 5 basement?A I said the thermostat wasn't working. 6 A lid have to look at the file. I believe thereQ Did you notice it was cold inside the home? 7 was something with the furnace or a valve orA The back door was open. 8 something.~ So the back door was open. Was she complaining 9 ~ You'd already been to the file (sic) and made an

about lack of heat? 10 interior inspection of both units in that duplexA I don't recall. I'd have to look at the file. 11 prior to that date. Correct?~ But for some reason, you can recall that there 12 A I don I t remember. I'd have to look at the file.

was a heat issue? 13 MS. SEEBA: Objection, form. YouA Athermostat issue. 14 said she's already been to the file. I presume~ Athermostat issue. Was that the complaint? 15 you meant home.A That's what she told me. 16 Q (Continuing by 14r. Shoemaker) I meant home. My~ So she had a thermostat issue and she had the 17 mistake. Prior to the time that you went to

door open? 18 Mr. Meysembourg 's property with Mr. Magner andA Right. 19 Officer Koehnen, you I d already been at thatQ Would you believe that you provided to 20 property with Officer Koehnen and done interior

Ms. Whitney a list of the life safety issues 21 inspections on the main level and the upstairsthat you thought were necessary on 1024 Euclid? 22 level. Correct?

A I may have. 23 A That's possible.Q Is your practice as a code inspector in 2002 to 24 Q During that particular inspection, you had had

make sure that any life safety issues that were 25 contact with the rental occupants in both theEXHIBIT 21


381 3831 main and the upper level. Correct? 1 ~ "Ms. Moermond stated the issue is whether the2 ~ Yes. 2 tenants allowed the inspectors into the~ ~ Did you also attend a legislative hearing where 43 building. Mr. Meysembourg responded he is not

(C" Mr. Meysembourg was appealing your orders and prepared to acknowledge that the inspector's~ your entry into his particular property? 5 report is valid, and he is not going to address6 ~ Yes. 6 it."7 ~ You remember that legislative hearing, do you? 7 ~ Then it indicates there that tenants appeared.8 ~ Yes. 8 Correct?9 Q Do you remember that Mr. Meysembourg brought his 9 ~ Yes.10 tenants along? 10 Q Do you remember Iessha Hunter?11 ~ Yes. 11 ~ No.12 ~ And his tenants were actually supportive of 12 ~ Can you picture her there in the hearing room of13 Mr. Meysembourg? 13 December 10th when you're there with Officer14 ~ No. 14 Koehnen dealing with Mr. Meysembourg's property15 ~ What do you recall the tenants saying? 15 and his tenants?16 ~ I recall Ms. Moermond asking them again if they 16 ~ No.17 allowed access. And they said yes, they did. 17 ~ Do you remember she was an African American?18 ~ Do you remember the tenants saying that they 18 ~ No.19 willfully allowed you access to the property to 19 ~ Do you remember that she had a number of others20 conduct your inspection that day? 20 that were staying with her in the main unit of21 ~ I don't recall exactly what was said. 21 that particular 970 Euclid Street?22 (Deposition Exhibit No.6 was 22 ~ I don't recall that.23 marked for identification.) 23 ~ Do you remember going inside of her apartment?24 ~ I'm identifying for the record Exhibit 6, which 24 ~ At some point, yes.~__l_'S_S_T_P_0_15_12_1_t_h_ro_u_gh_23_he_a_de_d_N_o_te_s_o_f_t_h_e__-+_2_5__~_D_O_y_Ou_re_m_emb_er_th_e_re_we_r_e_0_th_e_rs_th_a_t_w_er_e _

382 38412345678910111213141516171819

~t

d.232425

Property Code Enforcement Hearing.I see from the first page,

Ms. Martin, that the staff that were present wasOfficer Koehnen and yourself. Then there was afire inspector, Mr. Urmann, that was present.Correct?

~ If that's what it says, yes.Q This was a meeting before Marcia Moermond.

Correct?~ Yes.Q On December 10, 2002. Can you read the first

paragraph under 970 Euclid Street?~ "Lisa Martin reported that she originally went

out to this property on October 15. Later, shesent a letter to the occupants requesting to doan interior inspection. She sent one correctionnotice to the owner with fifteen items listedfor the first floor and second floor units. 1I

~ Then it indicates Mr. Meysenbourg appeared onhis appeal and made the basis of his appealknown to those present. Correct?

~ Yes.~ Then read on the third paragraph there where it

starts with Ms. Moermond. Can you read thataloud?

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

occupying her apartment?~ I don't. I'd have to look at the file.~ Please read the next large paragraph that starts

Ms. Moermond asked.~ "Ms. Moermond asked did she say the inspector

could look in her apartment. Iessha Hunterresponded she allowed the inspector in, but shefelt she had no choice because the inspector waspersistent on getting in the apartment. 1I

~ Let me stop you right there. In the previoussituation, we talked about entry with regards toMs. Cousette's apartment unit at 910 6th Street.You indicated you had a discussion with her atthe doorway for a few minutes.

How long did you have a discussionwith Iessha Hunter trying to gain access fromher to inspect her apartment?

~ Again, probably a few minutes.~ So you recall that you would have talked to

Iessha Hunter for a few minutes before she gaveyou permission to come into her apartment to dothe inspection?

~ Correct.~ Continue to read there where it says she never.~ "She never received a letter about an inspectionEXHIBIT 21


3873851 nor a phone call. She was asleep when they came 1 they had a good working relationship with the2 to her door." 2 landlord and they didn't need to have an3 Q Do you recall ever sending a letter to her about 3 inspection?r an inspection? 4 A Not that I can recall.:> A lid have to look at the file. 5 Q Do you ever remember a tenant saying that they6 Q Keep going there where it says landlord. 6 didn't want you to come in the property and you7 A "The landlord told her that she would know ahead 7 turned around and left?8 of time about any inspections. She did not want 8 A Yes.9 to let the inspector and the police officer in 9 Q When you had Officer Koehnen with you, how often10 the house because she had company from out of 10 did you get a denial of an occupant to your11 town and her kids were still asleep. She was 11 request for entry to a property?12 upset." 12 A Oftentimes.13 Q Let me ask if you recall that she was upset 13 Q So you I re saying that oftentimes when you made a14 during that hearing. 14 request to gain access to a rental property and15 A No. 15 you had Officer Koehnen with you, oftentimes a16 Q You didn't make any observations that she was 16 tenant would say, no, you cannot come in and17 upset? 17 you I d just leave?18 A No. 18 A Yes.19 Q Was she referring that she was upset that you 19 Q In those situations, you wouldn I t be persistent20 were coming in her property? 20 trying to gain access through talking with the21 A I don't know what she was referring to. 21 tenant?22 Q Well, the minutes here of the city say that she 22 A No. I'd let them know I'd send a letter to the23 was upset. 23 owner to do the inspection.24 MS. SEEBA: Objection. 24 Q So if a tenant told you right off the bat, I~_Q__(c_on_t_in_U_in_g_b_y_M_r_._Sh_o_em_a_ke_r_)_S_o_t_h_e_q_ue_s_ti_o_n_I_--1:-2_5 d_on_'_t_w_a_nt_yo_u_i_n_h_e_re_be_c_au_s_e_I_h_a_ve_g_o_t _

386 3881234567891011121314151617181920~

""to232425

have for you is: Do you recall that she wasupset during the hearing?

A As I stated, I don't know.MS. SEEBA: Asked and answered.

Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) You had adiscussion with her for a few minutes at herdoorway. Did she seem upset to you?

A No.Q Did she seem upset during any time that you were

inside her apartment?A No.Q So youlre not sure what this she was upset

refers to?A No.Q Continue on where it says she said.A "She said at the door that she did not have any

problems in the apartment."Q Do you remember her telling you that?A No.Q Do you ever remember a tenant telling you they

didn't have any problems with the apartment andthey didn't want you to do an interiorinspection?

A They may have. I don't recall anyone.Q Do you ever remember a tenant telling you that

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

company coming, why would you continue to talkwith the tenant for a few minutes to try to gainaccess?

A I don't recall the situation.Q Would it be that you truly wanted to get inside

so you were going to be persistent with tryingto convince the tenant that you had to getinside, to try to wear the tenant down so thetenant would allow you access?

A No.Q Let's look at the rest of this where it says she

said at the door. Would you reread that,please?

A "She said at the door she did not have anyproblems in the apartment. 1I

Q Do you remember her telling you that?A As I stated, no.Q Did she say anything like that to you?A Not that I can recall.Q Read the next line.A "When she does have problems, Mark is there

right away to take care of them,"Q So that's what the hearing notes are indicating

a tenant was telling the city employee, MarciaMoermond, in your presence at the hearing. DoEXHIBIT 21


12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

A liThe inspector noted on the report that therewas no deadbolt on the door, but there is."

~ Isn't it true that there was a deadbolt on thedoor?

A I don't recall.~ If he says there was one here, you wouldn't be

able to argue with him on that, would you, sincethis was back in December of 2002?

A lid have to look at my notes from the file.~ And your notes, though, would have been made at

the time you made the inspection. Correct?A Yes.~ So it would be his word versus your word, right,

on that issue as to whether or not there was, infact, a deadbolt lock on the door?

A Yeah.~ Then continue reading there where it says also.A IIAlso, the inspector complained about an eye

hook on the door because there are kids in thehouse, but she did not put that on the report. 1I

Then look at the next paragraph.IITami Fortune stated she was in bed when theycame in. She heard someone at the door and sheheard Kevin tell them to come back at anothertime, but they budged their way in."

232425

L.t.

1234567891011121314151617181920~~

A

389 3911 you remember her saying that during the hearing? 1 ~ Did you and Officer Koehnen budge your way into2 A She may have. 2 the upper unit department?3 ~ Start with the next line where it's the last 3 A Officer Koehnen wasn't with me.r paragraph of 15121. 4 ~ Where was he?~ A "Ms. Moermond asked what happened when the 5 A Officer Koehnen was outside in the truck.6 inspector came to the building. Kevin Allen 6 ~ Why was he in the truck when you were doing the7 responded that he works nights." 7 inspections on both units here?8 ~ So this is referring to the upper unit tenant. 8 A I don't believe that I did -- when I went to9 Correct? 9 this inspection, I don't believe that that was10 A Yes. 10 on the same day. But I'd have to look at my11 ~ And he was there with Tamara. Her name is Tami 11 notes.12 Fortune. Correct? 12 ~ Same day as what? Both inspections were at13 A I believe so. 13 different times?14 ~ Continue on, "he heard a knock on the door." 14 A They may have been. lid have to look at the15 A IIHe asked if they could come back, but he was 15 file.16 told they had to enter." 16 ~ Continue where you left off there.17 ~ Do you remember telling Mr. Allen that you had 17 A IIShe did not walk with them through the18 to enter to do the inspection? 18 apartment. She did receive a letter that they19 A No. 19 were going to inspect the apartment. In the20 ~ Go ahead and continue with the last sentence 20 letter, it stated the landlord was aware of the21 there on page 15121. 21 inspection, which is done yearly. Ms. Fortune22 A "He thought they were going to call Child 22 contacted the inspector a few times to inform23 Protection because his kitchen was dirty at the 23 her when she is home. She works from 8 to24 time, although it is not usually dirty." 24 12:30. The inspector called that morning.

(JA_~_c_o_nt_i_nu_e_. +-2_5 M_el_i_ss_a_B_u_rd_i_ne_(p_h_On_e_tl_'C_l_w_as_th_e_re_._S_he_to_l_d__

390 392the inspector that Ms. Fortune was not home, andthe inspector came anyway."

~ Then it's an indication as to what you reported.Would you read that, please?

A "Ms. Martin reported she has a copy of the NoEntry letter that was sent to the tenant.Nowhere does it state it is an annualinspection. She was in the neighborhood andtried to call Ms. Fortune. Ayoung ladyanswered the phone and said that Ms. Fortune washome. Ms. Martin told this lady to informMs. Fortune that she is in the neighborhood andwould like to do the inspection. Later,Ms. Martin knocked on the door. Mr. Allenanswered and said the house is a ness.Ms. Martin told him she was not at the houseabout the messiness. At that point, she couldsee a s[oke detector hanging from the wall. Hedid let them in, and an inspection was done."

~ How long did your conversation with Mr. Allentake where youlre attempting to gain consentfrom him for your inspection of that unit?

A Probably a couple minutes.~ Read the next paragraph if you would.A "Ms. Martin stated that Ms. Hunter had beenEXHIBIT 21


393 395123r:>

6789101112131415161718192021222324

sleeping. Normally when there are problem 1 Q Do you remember if it was more than ten times?properties, they do not call and notify tenants 2 A I donlt remember.they are on their way there. n 3 Q Continue with where you left off.

Q Was this a problem property? 4 A l1There was no forced entry into the property,A It may have been. 5 but there were a lot of corrections that neededQ Go ahead. 6 to be taken care of by the owner. 11

A IIMs. Martin asked Ms. Hunter if she could do an 7 Q Read the last full paragraph there where itinterior inspection. Ms. Hunter said she had 8 starts with Officer Dean Koehnen.company and they were sleeping. Ms. Martin told 9 A 1I0fficer Dean Koehnen, Saint Paul Policeher that it would take a few minutes and she 10 Department, reported he is assigned to codewon It wake them up. Ms. Martin responded fine. 11 enforcement. As for the downstairs tenant, whenMs. Martin said that when she goes into the 12 he is asked to not enter a property, he doesunits, she identifies the tenants, birth dates, 13 not. As for the upstairs person, he was notsocial security numbers, writes down the unit's 14 involved with the second contact. The inspectordeficiencies, and sends the notice of 15 went upstairs and into the unit without him. 11

deficiencies to the owner. 11 16 Q This seems to indicate Officer Koehnen was outQ Where would you write that information? 17 of his truck as it related to the contact withA Probably on the pink note sheet. 18 the lower unit, does it not?Q Mr. Lippert, when he testified, said he would 19 A I'm not sure what it refers to.

write down birth dates and other information as 20 Q Do you remember anything else thatpart of his documenting that he had consent from 21 Mr. Meysembourg said during his meeting with youan occupant to do an interior code inspection. 22 and Mr. Magner at the time that you went intoIs that why you'd take this information down as 23 the basement to look at the issue you referredwell? 24 to as a relief valve or furnace issue?

~_A_Y_es_' -t-2_5__A_I_r_em_e_mb_e_r_h_e_w_a_s_y_el_l_in_g_a_t_M_r_._M_ag_n_er_._I _

394 3961234567891011121314151617181920r,-to

232425

Q So in every case that you were seeking consentto enter an apartment and you believed you gotconsent, would you write down, or ask the tenantI should say, for the birth date and SocialSecurity numbers?

A Not always. Also, the birth dates came in handyfor citations.

Q So you'd be giving criminal citations totenants?

A Absolutely.Q How much have you done that?A Several times. Obviously at properties where

there's garbage thrown outside, it's not theowner that's dumping their garbage. It's thetenants.

Q You say you've done that several times whereyou've issued criminal tags to tenants?

A Yes.Q Can you remember doing that on any of the

properties owned by the plaintiffs in this case?A I don't recall.Q How many times have you issued citations like

that? More than five times?A Could have been. I don't remember the amount of

times.

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

don't recall exactly, but I believe I have itnoted in the file.

Q Would you say that Mr. Meysembourg was upset?A Yes.Q Was he expressing his disapproval of your being

there in the property?A I guess that could be it. He was babbling

something about English common law and wasyelling about all sorts of things. So I'm notsure what he was upset about.

Q This conversation that you overheard fromMr. Meysembourg, was this in the basement of hisproperty?

A No. It was in the front.Q It was in the front outside of his property?A Yes, he was standing on the step.Q Was this before you gained access to the

property to look at the basement?A I believe it was after. lId have to look at my

notes.Q So he was talking about English common law?A Yes.Q And he was talking about that as well during the

hearing with Marcia Moermond where we looked atthe minutes. Correct?EXHIBIT 21


397 39912

f:>6789101112131415161718192021222324

A Yes. 1 Q And then as a result of Mr. Magner and yourQ Do you remember pointing out to Mr. Meysembourg 2 visit to Mr. Meysembourg, that property was

what the claimed deficiency was in his basement 3 condemned. Correct?at the time Mr. Magner was there? 4 A Yes.

A Mr. Magner explained to him what needed to be 5 Q What was the basis for the condemnation that youcorrected. Mr. Meysembourg was yelling back at 6 remember?him and just told us to get off his property. 7 A I'd have to look at the condemnation.

Q Do you remember what Mr. Magner said 8 Q Wasn I t the condemnation basis solely based onspecifically? 9 the principal violation listed of having no

A No, but I believe I documented it in my file. 10 pressure relief valve?Q So if there would've been a conversation, it 11 A I don't know. I'd have to look at the actual

would be in your file. Correct? 12 notice.A That conversation, yes. 13 ~ You can't remember that on a property where youQ Do you remember how long the contact was with 14 condemned a property that that was the basis for

Mr. Meysembourg at the time that Mr. Magner made 15 the condemnation?the inspection of the basement of his 970 Euclid 16 A I have condemned many properties, so no.property? 17 Q Was it Mr. Magner's decision to condemn the

A How long the discussion between Mr. Meysembourg 18 property?and Mr. Magner was? 19 A Yes.

Q Right. 20 Q Did ~Ir. Magner want to have that property in hisA Possibly five minutes. 21 vacant building code compliance?Q How long were you at the property with 22 A I don't know that.

Mr. Magner that day? 23 Q Did he mention to you that he wanted to makeA Maybe ten minutes. 24 sure that property went through a code

~_Q_S_O_h_OW_d_id_YO_U_I_e_ar_n_t_h_at_Mr_._M_e_y_Se_mb_0_u_rg_wc_~s_a_t_+-2_5 c_om_p_1l_'a_nc_e_? _

398 40012345678910111213141516171819

~~1.

232425

the property that day?A I don't remember. He was standing on the steps

when we came around from the back of theproperty.

Q Did you come through the alleyway to theproperty?

A I believe we parked in front.Q And then you carne around to the back of the

property?A Right. I believe he was upstairs painting.Q So he was already at the property doing some

work on the property?A I'm not sure. I'd have to look at the file.Q But you recall you had issued correction orders

to him prior to that?A Yes.Q So the day that you came there to do the

inspection with Mr. Magner, he was already atthe property doing work on the property?

A I'm not sure.Q You just said he was painting. You recall that?A I said I believe he was painting.~ But he was at the property. You didn't have to

call him to the property?A No. He was there.

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

A He did not say that.Q Did he mention anything about Mr. Meysembourg

having to go through a code compliance?A Not to me, no.Q Did he mention it to anyone else?A I don't know.Q Through the code compliances, how many code

compliances do you think that you required ofproblem property owners during Mr. Dawkins'directorship?

A I don't know. lid have to look.Q How many properties do you believe that you

condemned during Mr. Dawkins' directorship?A I'd be speculating.Q Well, that's a period of the middle of 2002

until the end of 2005, so we have got a periodthere of about three-and-a-half years. Right?

A Correct.Q Do you remember how many condemnations on

average you had a month?A No.Q Do you remember how many condemnations you had

in any particular year?A No.Q Do you remember how many condemnations you wouldEXHIBIT 21


401 403123r

have had on a weekly basis? 1 personnel about your office potentiallyA No. 2 condemning this property for claimed nuisanceQ So as you sit here today, you don't know how 3 problems?

many homes you've condemned in the City of 4 A I don't even know who this property belonged to.o St. Paul? 5 Q This property belonged to Sandra Harrilal, an6 A Not a specific number, no. 6 African American, who was renting to African7 Q How many of the homes that you condemned in the 7 Americans in the City of St. Paul. Do you know8 City of St. Paul were there people living in 8 that?9 that were calling those buildings their homes? 9 A I wouldn't know that information.10 A What do you mean? 10 Q Did you have any discussions with any of the CSP11 Q Well, how many of those condemnations that you 11 personnel about this particular property?12 put in place were there people living there? 12 A Not that I can recall.13 A Like tenants or owner occupants? 13 Q Do you remember CSP personnel ever being at any14 Q Tenants that were calling that place their home. 14 of the problem property meetings?15 A I would believe all of them. 15 A No.16 Q So you would go out and condemn somebody's home 16 Q Did you ever attend any Ir;eetings at any of the17 when they were living there and not even 17 CSP functions that they put on?18 remember condemning their home? 18 A I had gone to CSP on one occasion.19 MS. SEEBA: Objection, form. 19 Q And you testified to that earlier. You also met20 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you have any 20 Pam James. Is that right?21 recollection of how many people you've put on 21 A All I know is her name is Pam. It could be22 the street? 22 James.23 A No, I don't. I don't put people on the street. 23 Q How do you believe that CSP would gain24 I do inspections. 24 information that the city was potentially~_Q__Bu_t_y_O_Ur_in_s_pe_c_t_io_n_s_l_ea_d_to_co_n_de_m_n_at_i_on_s_.__--._2_5__c_o_nd_e_mn_i_n_g_a_p_r_o_pe_r_ty_? _

402 404A I have no idea.Q Do you think Mr. Dawkins would have had

discussions with CSP personnel?A I don't have that information.Q Do you think Mr. Magner would have had

discussions with CSP personnel?A You'd have to ask him.Q So you don't know -- you have no idea as to how

Community Stabilization would have gotten theinformation to put in their flyer here thatwould provide tenants with notice that theymight be losing their home?No.If you got a flyer like this when you were arenter, would this have concerned you?Yes.Why is that? Is it because it was being claimedthat there was nuisance activity at theproperty?Are you saying if I received this at my home?Right, when you were a renter. You indicatedyou rented properties from time to time prior toyour becoming a code inspector. My question toyou is: If you would have received a noticelike this as a renter, would this have been a

12345678910111213 A14 Q1516 A17 Q181920 A21 Q22232425

Correct?MS. SEEBA: John, do you need a

break? You're harassing her. If you want totake five minutes, let's take five minutes.

(Deposition Exhibit No. 7 wasmarked for identification.)

Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Showing you whathas been marked Exhibit 7, it's Bates 060179, aCommunity Stabilization Project flyer. Have youever seen a flyer like this before?Never.This one here was dated February 5th, 2004. Myquestion to you is: On the 704 East Lawsonproperty, after you issued your order to fixthat property in September of 2003, do yourecall going back to that property any time fora reinspection?I'd have to look at the file. No, I don'trecall that.Do you remember that the next activity that youtook on that property was actually to get theproperty into a tenant remedy case in early2004?I'd have to look at the file.Do you remember having any discussions with CSP

1.L.

2324 A25 Q

1234567891011 A12 Q131415161718 A1920 Q~

EXHIBIT 21


407

was targeting select areas for condemnations?A No.Q Did you hear that city code enforcement was

targeting areas for redevelopment?A No.Q Did you ever have conversations with Mr. Dawkins

or anyone else about areas that the city wantedto have redeveloped from a standpoint of codecompliances?

A No.Q Did you ever have any discussions with any

members of the African American community aboutthe adverse effect that condemnations werehaving on their tenants in their community?

A No.Q Did you ever have anybody raise any concerns

with you about the way that the problem propertyunit was taking affordable units off linethrough aggressive code enforcement?

A Repeat that.Q I was wondering if you ever had any discussions

with anybody between 2002 and 2005 that theaggressive code enforcement that was beingapplied in the City of St. Paul was having anadverse effect on affordable housing.

232425

4051 concern to you? 1 ~ You'd have to look at the file?2 A Yes. 2 A Yes.3 ~ lihy is that? 3 ~ Do you remember ever condemning any properties~ A Because of a nuisance problem property. 4 in other areas of town that were considered to~ ~ Also, the fact that maybe you would have notice 5 be wealthier areas and nicer structures?6 here that you're going to be losing your home. 6 A I don't know what you're considering wealthier7 Right? 7 areas.8 A That's what it says. 8 ~ What areas did you condemn buildings in9 ~ Did you ever have any discussions with anybody 9 primarily? Did you condemn buildings on the10 in your department during 2000 to 2005 about the 10 east side?11 lack of affordable housing in the City of 11 A City wide.12 St. Paul? 12 ~ How many buildings did you condemn on the east13 A I may have. I don't remember specifically. 13 side?14 ~ It doesn't stand out that there was ever a 14 A I don't recall.15 discussion in your mind that there was the lack 15 ~ During the period 2002 to 2005, do you remember16 of affordable housing in the Neighborhood 16 any buildings over there that you condemned?17 Housing and Property Improvement office? 17 A I believe Frank Steinhauser.18 A Not that I can remember specifically. 18 ~ How about in the Frogtown area, did you ever19 ~ Did you at any time learn that there was a 19 condemn buildings there?20 severe shortage of three, four, and five bedroom 20 A I may have.21 homes in the City of St. Paul for people that 21 ~ How about around Kelly Brisson's area, 29722 were trying to find homes? 22 Burgess, did you condemn a lot of buildings up23 A No. 23 there?24 ~ You never acquired that information? 24 A Some, yes.~_A_N_O_' -t-2_5__~_D_id_YO_U_ev_e_r_h_ec_"r_th_a_t_t_he_cl_'t_y_c_od_e_e_n_f_or_c_em_e_nt_

406 408~ Did Mr. Dawkins ever seem to have a concern 1

about people having a place to live in the city? 2A I don't know. 3Q He never mentioned that to you? 4A No. 5Q In all the discussions he had about code 6

enforcement and wrapping up code enforcement, he 7never once mentioned to you that he had a 8concern for people being able to find a place to 9Iive in the City of St. Paul? 10

A No. 11Q Did he ever indicate to you that the areas where 12

you were targeting for sweeps were the poorer 13areas of town? 14

A Never. 15Q Did he ever mention to you that he was concerned 16

that the areas where you were condemning 17properties were the poorer areas of town? 18

A Never. 19~ Did you ever do any inspections in the wealthier 20

areas of town? 21A What do you mean wealthier? 22Q Highland Park, have you ever done an inspection 23

~t~re? ~

A I may have. I don't recall specifics. 25

1234567891011121314151617181920~

EXHIBIT 21


409 4111 A No. 1 Q Do you know when the normal envelopes are used2 Q Did anybody ever raise that concern at any time 2 where you have to put an address on the outside?

~ A ~~~t you remember? ~ ~ ~~' y~Ud~~~~'if the window envelopes would allow~ Q Did anybody ever say to you that the 5 three addresses like this to be shown through6 condemnations were having an adverse effect on 6 the window envelope?7 the occupants of the properties? 7 A I have no idea.8 A No. 8 Q You've never seen a window envelope in the9 Q Have you ever read the US Conference of Mayors 9 entire time you've been with code enforcement?10 report? 10 A No. I don't look at the mail.11 A No. 11 Q When you issue or want to issue an order, is it12 Q Did you know that the City of St. Paul has 12 your testimony that you would give in all cases13 participated many years in that particular 13 the notice that you have to the supervisor who14 conference? 14 then gives it to the clerical staff?15 A Never heard of it. 15 A Yes.16 (Deposition Exhibit No. 8 was 16 Q Do you ever work yourself directly with the17 marked for identification.) 17 clerical staff?18 Q The court reporter has marked Exhibit 8. For 18 A No.19 the record, it's Bates 060276 consecutive 19 Q Have you ever seen the postmarked meter in the20 through 60281. Take a look at the exhibit. 20 NHPI office between the period of June of 200221 It's from the NHPI file, your file on this 21 through, let's say, the end of Mr. Dawkins'22 particular property at 704 Lawson Avenue. The 22 directorship?23 first page was a June 1st, 2004 notice. Is that 23 A Are you asking if I know where it's located?24 what you have? 24 Q Right.~ M_S_._SE_E_BA_:_Y_e_S,_bu_t_t_h_is_i_sn_'_t_t_he__-t-2_5__A_Y_es_. _

410 412Q Where is it located?A In the back room.Q Where is the back room? Is it near the

conference room?A It's right next door, yes.Q Is it a room that has a door on it?A I believe so.Q So there is a door so you can close that room to

the postage meter?A Yes.Q Does it have a lock on it?A I don't know.Q Is it open access to anyone?A Yes.Q Have you ever used the postmarked machine?A No. You have to have a code in order to use the

machine.Q So staff individuals would have to use it?A It has to be clerical.Q Who has the codes in order to use the postage

machine?A I don't know.Q Would Ms. McGinn have that, do you know?A I'd be speculating, but she's the office

manager. I would assume she would.

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

complete file for 704 Lawson.Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) I said it's

documents from this file. The Correction Noticethat's dated June 1st, 2004 on 704 Lawson,there's three addresses there. Do you see that?

A Yes.Q What type of envelopes did the city NHPI office

use for mailings of notices to owners?A I don't know.Q Never saw an envelope in the office at any time?A I have seen many envelopes.Q I'm talking about the envelopes that your office

used.A They use big envelopes, little envelopes, window

envelopes.Q So there's window envelopes that are available?A Yes.Q And there's regular envelopes that you have to

actually put an address on the outside of theenvelope?Correct.When are the window envelopes used?I don't know.Have you ever had any experience with that?No. I don't work in clerical.

232425

1234567891011121314151617181920r'A

QAQA EXHIBIT 21


415

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

percent sure. And then Pat McGinn.Q So five that you can recall?A Yes.Q How many of them are currently there?A All of them.~ Is there anyone of them that works with Steve

Magner?A I believe Joe Hatch and Amber Sullivan.~ Joe Hatch?A Yes.~ Is that a man?A Yes.~ And he is a fifth one now besides Pat McGinn.

Right?A Correct.Q What position does Joe Hatch have?A I believe he is clerical. I don't know what his

actual title is.~ Do you know if Joe Hatch worked with NHPI during

2004?He may have been at the LIEP office at thattime.

Q Is that where he came from?A Yes.~ Now, any of these six individuals that you know

l.t.

232425

12

f'

1234567891011121314151617181920~A

413~ You'd assume she has access to that because if 1 works with Steve Magner?

she needed to train someone on how to use, as a 2 A I'm not sure which ones work directly withclerical staff person, that postmark machine, 3 Steve.she would have to have knowledge of that. 4 ~ Do you know if Pat McGinn works with Steve

::> Correct? 5 Magner?6 A I would assume so. 6 A I don't know.7 ~ During the time of 2004, the entire year, how 7 ~ Let me ask you to look at this Exhibit 8 because8 many clerical people did you have in your 8 what is of concern here is the postmarked date,9 office? 9 which is the third page, Bates 60278. If you10 A I believe five or six. 10 look at the first page of the exhibit, June 1st,11 Q Do you remember their names? 11 2004 notice and the postmark, there is June 1st12 A Debra Jackson, Debra Wile, W-I-L-E, Maxine 12 and a post marking is June 15.13 Liston, L-I-S-T-O-N. 13 So if Ms. Harrilal states that this14 ~ And the fourth one? 14 particular June 1st, 2004 Correction Notice came15 A That would be Amber Sullivan. 15 in the envelope that's Bates 60218 that's got a16 ~ The fifth one? 16 postmark of June 15, is there any way that you17 A Pat McGinn. 17 would know how that could have happened at your18 ~ So we have Debra Jackson, Debra Wile, W-I-L-E? 18 office with the way that you described the19 A I believe so. 19 notices and how you got the notice to your20 Q Do you think there may be a Yon that? 20 supervisor and then the supervisor got it to the21 A I believe there is. 21 clerical staff?22 ~ And Maxine Liston? 22 A No, I don I t.23 A Yes. 23 ~ Do you think this was something that was a24 ~ Amber Sullivan? 24 mistake?

fA_A_Amb_e_r_m_a_y_h_av_e_c_o_me_af_t_er_th_e_fa_c_t._I_'_m_n_o_t_1_00_-t-2_5__A_I_d_o_n_It_k_n_ow_. _

414 416Q Is there a log system that you know of that you

maintain as to when one of your correctionnotices is actually mailed out of your office?

A The only time that they have dates on them areon a summary abatement form. At the top, itsays date mailed and they initial it.Otherwise, with correction notices orcondemnations I'm not aware of anywhere whereit's noted.

~ So someone here could have got your correctionnotice and just sat on the notice and not mailedit out for about two weeks and you wouldn't haveknown about it?

A No, I wouldn't.~ There was an inspection date, a reinspection

date, in your notice to Ms. Harrilal, was therenot?

A Yes.Q When was the reinspection to occur?A May 20th.Q Wasn't it supposed to be June 14th, Bates 60277,

second page?A 11mshowing items 1 through 9 from the

Correction Notice dated 5/5/04 with a compliancedate of 5/20.EXHIBIT 21


419

232425

417~ Right. It says on the next paragraph that 1 things that they have done on the property?

you're going to reinspect the premises on June 2 A Yes.14. Correct? 3 ~ So you would be able to note, if you wanted to

A Correct. 4 look at the hard file, if you went to June 1st,o ~ So by the postmark of June 15, there's no way 5 2004, you would be able to see if there actually6 that Ms. Harrilal would have been able to comply 6 was an entry that corresponded with that that7 prior to your reinspect ion of the property. 7 would relate to clerical work?8 Isn't that true? 8 A On the front cover -- I don't have a copy. But9 A That is correct. 9 it shows my badge number, the date that I was10 ~ Look at the next document, 60279. This one 10 there. It shows if it was an interior or11 comes from Mr. Dawkins to Ms. Harrilal. 11 exterior. And then the next box has the12 Correct? 12 category.13 A That's what it looks like. 13 ~ That's a cover sheet that other inspectors have14 ~ Have you ever seen a document like this before 14 referred to?15 where there is a notice to a homeowner about 15 A Yes. And on the far right is where clerical16 billing of a property for excessive consumption? 16 will initial once they have completed the file.17 A Yes. 17 ~ If there is an initial there, that means18 ~ When have you seen these kind of documents? 18 clerical handled the particular notice that you19 A When I receive the file back. 19 wanted sent?20 ~ t1hen you receive the file back? 20 A Yes. And it has the initial of the clerical21 A From clerical after they have made their entry. 21 person who handled it.22 ~ So when they have made their entry with regards 22 ~ But it doesn't indicate the date that they23 to what? 23 actually did the work?24 A After I have done an inspection and they send 24 A That is correct.~__o_u_t_t_he_no_t_ic_e_s,_th_e_y_a_tt_a_ch_a_C_o_py_of_th_e -t-2_5__~_W_as_it_yo_u_r_u_n_de_r_st_a_nd_i_ng_t_ha_t_w_h_en_yo_u_l_'s_su_e_d__

418 420notice and put it back in my mailbox. 1 or wanted issued a notice to a homeowner, that

~ So in the case of a Correction Notice that we 2 you would give the file to your supervisor andlooked at first, the first two pages of 3 that within a day or two the supervisor was toExhibit 8, would you ever have received the file 4 make sure that the notice got out to theback from clerical after the file went to the 5 homeowner?supervisor who approved your work, gave it to 6 A Absolutely.clerical? Would the file have come back to you? 7 ~ Who was your supervisor at the time of June

A Yes. 8 2004?~ What would the file indicate when it came back 9 A Steve Magner.

to you on a correction order? 10 ~ So Mr. Magner would have got your CorrectionA Just on the very front it shows the address and 11 Notice to Ms. Harrilal in your hard file?

then it shows the date that the data entry was 12 A Yes.made. And then on the side, it's just 13 ~ That you had handprinted in your hard file.initialed. 14 Correct? And you would have given him the hard

~ What does that mean to you as an inspector? 15 file of 704 that had what you wanted to be sentA That the clerical has sent out the notice. 16 to the owner. Correct?~ Does it indicate the date that they sent out the 17 A Correct.

notice? 18 ~ And then he would have looked at that particularA No, it doesn't. 19 entry you made?~ It just has an initial? 20 A Yes.A Yes. 21 ~ And then given that to the clerical staff?~ So if we were to look at the outside of the 22 A After he approves it, yes.

jacket of this particular 704 Lawson Avenue, the 23 ~ And they would then take your notes from yourhard copy in the NHPI office, would there be a 24 hard copy file of 704 Lawson and prepare therunning list of clerical entries as to the 25 macro form from the computer software that ends

1234567891011121314151617181920~

12

f

EXHIBIT 21


12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

421

name on it. Do you know if that's true?A I don't know.Q Do you know any case where he would have seen a

condemnation notice with his name on it beforeit went off to the owner?

A No.Q Here there is a notice out to the owner. This

is a notice of excessive consumption. Correct?A Yes.Q This particular notice has a compliance

deadline. It says reinspection is going tooccur on June 14. Correct?

A Yes.Q And that corresponds with your reinspection

notice on the second page of your June 1stletter to Ms. Harrilal. Correct?

A Yes.Q And the second page of Mr. Dawkins' notice to

the owner has got an actual invoice. Correct?Yes.And even the third page looks like this one washeld in the office until June 16, 2004?

MS. SEEBA: Objection, foundation.Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) If that's what

Ms. Harrilal says is the copy of the envelope

232425

1234567891011121314151617181920 A~Q

4231 up looking like the first two pages of 1 that the particular notice from Mr. Dawkins came2 Exhibit 8. Correct? 2 in, that would have been 15 days after the date~ A Correct. 3 of the excessive consumption notice to her.

r"""-' Q And then the hard copy would come back to you? 4 Correct?~ A The whole file would come back. 5 A That's what it appears.6 Q That would then have the cover sheet on the 6 Q Now, who would have handled, in your office on7 inside of the jacket that would indicate the 7 June 1st, 2004 or any days thereafter, the8 clerical entry as to what they did? 8 creation of this excessive consumption notice?9 A I wouldn't get the whole jacket. I think you're 9 Did you playa role in creating the excessive10 referring to like the blue folders. We have an 10 use consumption that's noted here on 60279?11 original fHe and then we have the file that we 11 A Letter itself?12 keep with us that we track -- 12 Q Right.13 Q Your working file? 13 A No. I believe Debra Jackson is in charge of14 A Right. I do receive that back with the 14 excessive consumption.15 Correction Notice or whatever I ask clerical to 15 Q Debra Jackson is one of the clerical people you16 do for me. 16 mentioned?17 Q In this case, the notice that Mr. Dawkins sent 17 A Yes.18 out to Ms. HarrHal to the same address has also 18 Q What would she have looked at in order to19 got a date of June 1st, 2004. Do you remember 19 determine that in fact on this property on June20 that Mr. Dawkins was sending a letter out the 20 1st, the day you're sending out a correction21 same day as you were on this particular 21 notice, that there should be an excessive use22 property? 22 notice sent out to the owner?23 A I don't recall that. 23 A I would have noted on the file if there was24 Q By the way, Mr. Dawkins indicated that he never 24 noncompliance.f'__s_a_w_a_ny_of_th_e_c_o_nd_e_mn_a_t_io_n_n_o_tl_'c_es_th_a_t_h_a_d_h_is_+-2_5__Q_S_o_,_ag_a_i_n,_th_e_fi_le_t_ha_t_y_o_u_t_ra_n_sf_e_rr_e_d_t_o _

422 424Mr. Magner would have had the information thatwould have been the basis for Debra Jacksoncreating the June 1st, 2004 excessive useconsumption notice to Ms. Harrilal?

A Yes.Q Then the mailing would have been done by one of

the clerical staff as well?A Yes.Q And, again, these both are the same day but yet

they are delayed by over two weeks. Is thereany idea as to how that could have happened?

A No idea.Q Do you think that Ms. Harrilal should have been

given the opportunity to have notice sooner than15 to 16 days on these two items?

A Absolutely.Q Do you know of any individuals in your office

purposely intending to delay notices at any timeto homeowners so that the city could get an edgeon the owner?

A No.Q Can you see how the owners would feel that that

was the case in looking at the postmark and thedates of the letters?

A I would say that, obviously, someone made aEXHIBIT 21


425 4271 mistake. 1 the street from a brand new multibuilding2 Q Have you ever seen a situation where people have 2 complex?

~complained about other notices that have not 3 A I don't believe that it had anything to do withbeen received by the homeowner that came from 4 it.

~ your office? 5 Q Weren't there a number of properties in that6 A I believe I have taken one complaint. 6 area that were being condemned and were vacant7 ~ What do you recall about that complaint? 7 as well?8 A Agentleman called me and said that he received 8 A I believe there were a couple other homes vacant9 a notice but he didn't have enough time to 9 on that street.10 comply with it or something. I don't remember 10 Q Did Officer Koehnen go with you on any of the11 what the situation was. 11 inspections of that property owned by Betty12 Q He said he had not received a copy of the paper 12 Speaker?13 notice from your office? 13 A Yes.14 A He did, but he didn't feel that was enough time. 14 Q How many times did he attend inspections there?15 Q So he felt that the time that was allowed by you 15 A I believe every time.16 as an inspector wasn't enough time? 16 ~ Did you learn at some point that the brothers or17 A Right, because he said it took four days for 17 sons of Ms. Speaker were attempting to get18 mailing. 18 documents from your office?19 ~ Do you have a definition of a problem tenant as 19 A No.20 you sit here today? 20 Q You don't know anything about that?21 A No. 21 A ~.

22 Q When you were a problem property member during 22 Q Were you ever reassigned to handle a property23 2002 to 2005, did you ever hear of a definition 23 that was outside of your area at any time?24 of a problem tenant? 24 A Problem properties, when I had that I was city

~A No. 25 wide.

426 4281 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Dawkins use the term 1 Q But from a general standpoint, when you had an2 nuisance tenant? 2 area, did your director ever reassign you for3 A No. 3 just a specific property?4 Q Nuisance behavior at a property? 4 A No.5 A Nuisance behavior, yes. 5 Q So you've never had a situation where you were6 Q Were you involved with Mr. Dawkins in trying to 6 pulled off of a property file and some other7 force people out of their homes because of 7 inspector was put on the property?8 nuisance behavior? 8 A No.9 A I never forced anyone out of their home. 9 Q Have you ever heard that others have been pulled10 MS. SEEBA: Objection. 10 off of a property and another inspector11 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Did you understand 11 reassigned?12 Mr. Dawkins made landlords or demanded landlords 12 A No.13 get rid of tenants? 13 Q How many times have you worked with the force14 A No. 14 unit?15 Q You don't have any recollection of that? 15 A I don't believe I have ever worked with the16 A No. 16 force unit.17 Q What do you remember about the Betty 17 Q Have you ever been called to a property that a18 Speaker (phi property up on Capitol Heights? 18 force unit has been involved with that day or19 You were the inspector assigned on that 19 that night?20 property, were you not? 20 A Yes.~ A Yes. 21 Q How many times has that happened?~l Q Why was that property condemned? 22 A Maybe twice.23 A Again, I'd have to look at the file. 23 ~ When were those two situations?24 Q Do you have any recollection as to why her 24 A There was one on the west side, and I believe25 property was condemned when it was right across 25 that one was in the evening. And I don't recallEXHIBIT 21


429 431

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425

~ Did you make an interior inspection on thatproperty?

A Yes, I did.~ What was the result of your inspection?A I don't recall. I believe I wrote orders on the

property.~ You donlt think you condemned that property?A I don't believe so.~ The other property that you were involved with

with the police department with the force unit,did you condemn that property?

A No, I did not.~ Were there orders written?A I take that back. I'm not 100 percent sure what

happened with that property, but I rememberthere was questionable vehicles there. Ibelieve there were some officers from the stolenvehicle unit or whatever they're called.

~ Have you ever observed a force unit conductingan entry to a property that's subject to theirwarrant?

A No.~ Have you ever seen any videos that indicate how

those warrants are executed by a policedepartment?

Lt.

232425

where the other property was, but that one I 1 A No.believe was some time around 5:00 or 6:00 in the 2 ~ Have you ever talked to anyone from the policeevening. 3 department about the process of gaining entry by

~ The west side, evening time that you dealt with 4 police officers to units in the City ofo that property, what do you remember about your 5 St. Paul?6 role there? 6 A No.7 A I just remember there was a lot of police that 7 ~ Do you know a gentleman by the name of Ronald8 were there, that there was a lot of furniture 8 Lydon (ph)?9 and garbage in the yard. That's about it. 9 A Yes.10 ~ HOIi long after the police had arrived at the 10 ~ On James Street?11 property did you get to the property? 11 A Yes.12 A I don I t know. 12 ~ What do you remember about that property?13 ~ Who called you to the property? 13 A That he was an elderly gentleman that had lots14 A I was called by the dispatch at the St. Paul 14 of cats. He had a home that was very15 Police Department. 15 deteriorated. I contacted Social Services to16 ~ And you were dispatched out there to do an 16 try to get him assistance. He had told me that17 inspection of the property? 17 he was going to be selling the property and18 A Yes. 18 moving to a highrise that he had already put in19 ~ Was it your understanding that the reason there 19 an application for.20 were a lot of police there was that there had 20 ~ Did you issue orders on his property?21 been a warrant executed at that property? 21 A Yes, I did.22 A I don't recall the exact details. 22 ~ What type of orders did you issue?23 ~ Do you remember observing any damage in the 23 A I believe we did summary abatement orders and a24 doorways or any entry to the property? 24 correction notice.~_A_N_O_. +-2_5__~_wh_a_t_t_y_pe_of_re_p_a_ir_wa_s_r_e_qu_i_re_d_b_y_yo_u_r_o_rd_e_rs_?_

430 432A lid have to look at the file, but I believe he

had a garage that looked like it was ready tocome down.

~ How about the main structure?A The main structure, I believe, was exterior

issues and then at another time I was able togain entry into the interior.

~ He indicated to you that he was attempting tosell the property?

A Yes.~ Was he living in it when you had issued your

summary abatement and your correction orders?A I believe so.~ Did he continue to live in it thereafter?A After the work orders?~ Yeah, after the work orders were issued.A I believe he did.~ Did he comply with the work orders?A I believe through Ramsey County Health, we were

able to get him a dumpster.~ So you got him a dumpster to clean out the

property?A Clean out the property and the yard and garages.~ Do you know that that property was eventually

put on the vacant building list? Did you learn

12

f'

1234567891011121314151617181920~

EXHIBIT 21


433 435

'-(.

232425

12 A

~Q

1234567891011121314151617181920r

that? 1 James Street?I believe I did hear that. 2 A Mr. Lydon (ph) allowed access.Why was it put on the vacant building list if he 3 ~ How did he allow access to you?was selling the property? 4 A I asked him if I could take a look at the inside

~ A The building was condemned. 5 of his home.6 ~ Who condemned the building? 6 Q What did he say?7 A I did. 7 A Sure, corne on him.8 Q Why did you condemn the building? 8 Q Did you tell him, at the time you were having a9 A Based on there was no heat and the interior of 9 discussion with him about gaining access to the10 the property was totally deteriorated. 10 property, that your gaining access may in fact11 Q What was the approximate date that that property 11 lead to a condemnation of the property?12 was built, do you remember? 12 A I don't recall the exact situation, but I13 A I don't remember. 13 explained to him that we would try and help him14 Q So was it a home built, do you think, prior 'Co 14 with getting funding. I also had city attorney,15 World War II? 15 Amy Novae, with ne.16 A I donlt recall. 16 Q When you were discussing getting consent from17 Q So it was condemned because of no heat? 17 Mr. Lydon, you said that you had an assistant18 A I'd have to look at the file, but I know he 18 city attorney with you?19 didn't have any heat on. The floors were 19 A Yes.20 rotted. There were a lot of issues. 20 Q How many times, when you had conversations with21 Q So he was forced then to leave his property? 21 occupants of properties trying to gain access to22 A No, he was not forced to leave his property. It 22 properties, did you have assistant city23 was condemned. He had already rented in a 23 attorneys present with you?24 highrisei which he had stated that he had moved 24 A Like I said, they came out usually once a week~__o_ut_t_t_h_at_he_wa_S_ju_s_t_g_et_t_in_g_h_i_s_t_h_in_g_s_a_nd_it_-t_2_5 t_o_f_ol_l_ow_up_o_n_s_om_e_o_f_t_h_e_ir_ca_s_es_._s_o_i_f_t_he_y_

434 436was condemned at that point. He was already out 1 happened to be with and I stopped at a property,at the vacate date. 2 they would come with.

Q So at the time you condemned it, however, was he 3 Q So they would be a witness to what was beingstill living in it? 4 discussed at the time that the conversation was

A I don't recall. I'd have to look at the file. 5 being had by yourself and the occupant thatQ By the time of your vacate date, he had already 6 would lead you to believe that you either had or

got in the highrise? 7 did not have consent. Correct?A Correct. 8 A Yeah, I could put them down as a witness,Q Did Officer Koehnen assist you in that property? 9 absolutely.A Yes. 10 Q Let I s go back for a minute and talk about theQ What was his role? 11 notices that you provided to occupants that youA Again, he rode with me for protection. 12 were talking to in seeking consent from them.Q Why did you need to have protection from an 13 You remember the Meysembourg property at 970

elderly gentleman? 14 Euclid? We looked at the hearing notes thatA Mr. Koehnen was with me oftentimes when we were 15 were fairly close in time to your inspection,

responding to many different calls. 16 and that was Exhibit 6 if you want to refer toQ So at times you would drive around with him on 17 that.

your daily duties? 18 The question I have for you is:A Yes. 19 There is a considerable amount of discussion in~ Together? 20 the minutes that talk about your discussion withA Correct. 21 the tenants at the doorway of the apartments.Q Do you know what the Winslow residence is? 22 Have you located that?A I have no idea. 23 A Yes.Q Hew did you gain access to the interior of that 24 ~ We are talking about Exhibit 6, Bates 15121 to

property owned by that elderly gentleman on 25 23. Therels a considerable amount of the notesEXHIBIT 21


437 4391 here that talk about the time frame of your 1 believe that it would be fair for the inspector2 discussing with the occupants of these rental 2 to tell you that they had an intention to3 units your reason to be at the property and the 3 condemn the unit as part of your giving a

r fact that what they're saying in response to 4 consent to them to enter a property?J you. So in that time frame, let me ask you: 5 MS. SEEBA: Objection, form.6 Did you ever tell any of the tenants that were 6 A If they told me their intent is to condemn the7 here listed, that is Iessha Hunter in the lower 7 unit, yes, lid be concerned.8 unit and/or Kevin Allen and Tami Fortune in the 8 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) If their intent9 upper unit, that if you made an inspection, that 9 was to condemn it but they didn't tell you that,10 you could potentially condemn their living 10 would you feel that that was fair when they are11 arrangement? 11 trying to get access to the property and they're12 A I donlt believe so. 12 asking you for consent but yet they are not13 Q Wouldnlt that be sonething that would be 13 telling you that they are intending to condemn14 important to the tenant in making an informed 14 the unit?15 decision as to whether they should allow you 15 A I don't know of any inspector who intends to16 access to their living quarters? 16 condemn any unit when they go in to do an17 A I didnlt think about it. 17 inspection.18 Q Do you recall, when you had a conversation with 18 Q Well, the flyers from CSP indicate that, at19 Lachaka Cousette on 910 6th Street and Officer 19 least from their conversations with city20 Koehnen was a couple of steps down and Maurine 20 employees or officials, that they've already21 Dolan was present, did you advise Lachaka 21 been told that there's going to be condemnations22 Cousette that your coming into her apartment may 22 even before an inspection?23 in fact be adverse to her interests? 23 A Again, I can't speak for CSP, why they would24 A I don't recall. 24 even write that.

~Q So you did not give her any kind of advisory 25 Q But if you were an occupant as a renter, you

438 MO1 that if she gave you consent, she may in fact be 1 would want the inspector who is approaching you2 without a home? 2 asking you for your consent to be open and fair3 A I don't believe so. 3 with you, would you not, as to why the inspector4 Q Do you ever remember any time that you were 4 is really there?5 trying to gain access to a rental property and 5 A I would ask.6 you were having conversations with a tenant, 6 Q You would ask why the inspector is there?7 that you ever gave an advisory to the tenant 7 A Right.8 that your inspection may in fact lead to 8 Q Would you also ask what the inspector intended9 condemnation of the unit and their being 9 to do?10 required to leave the property? 10 A Sure.11 A No. 11 Q And what the inspector intended to look at?12 Q Do you know if any of the other inspectors that 12 A Sure.13 condemned properties while you were an inspector 13 Q Who does Steve Magner socialize with in the NHPI14 ever gave that kind of advisory to occupants? 14 office?15 A I donlt know. 15 A I donlt know.16 Q Ever had a discussion with anybody about that? 16 Q Have you ever went out and had a Coke or a beer17 A No. 17 with Mr. Magner after hours?18 Q Did Mr. Dawkins ever advise you to tell tenants, 18 A No.19 when you were speaking consent, that you should 19 Q Have you ever had any socializing in any type20 tell them that you may possibly be condemning 20 with anybody else from the NHPI office?~ their horne and forcing them out of the property 21 A Outside of work?,~ if they allowed you in? 22 Q Right.23 A No. 23 A Yes.24 Q If you were renting a property and an inspector 24 Q Who would that be?25 was asking access to your property, would you 25 A Dean Koehnen and I have gone to severalEXHIBIT 21


«3

here at 7:20 p.m., Ms. Seeba and I, about myneed to continue the deposition in order tocomplete the inquiry of Ms. Martin concerningMr. Steinhauser, Mr. Meysembourg, Mr. Johnson,Mr. Brisson, and Ms. Harrilalls code enforcementfiles with regard to Ms. Martinis activity onthose files. Ms. Seeba and I have agreed thatthe deposition will be stopped tonight andcontinued to January 23rd commencing here at myoffice at 9:30 a.m. and going without breaks,except for the court reporter's need to stretchher hands, until 2:30 p.m. that afternoon, atwhich time the deposition of Ms. Martin will beconcluded. Is that correct?

MS. SEEBA: That is correct. lidlike to ask you if those five hours are going tobe confined to the files or if this is just anopen deposition.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Well, it will beconfined to the code enforcement work thatMs. Martin has done on anyone of those fiveplaintiffs as it relates to any other files.

MS. SEEBA: Okay, the codeenforcement work. I want to make sure we arenot going to be repetitive of things that

lot.

232425

12

~

441fundraisers for Jerry Vick. 1 will give you access to the interiors?

~ He's mentioned that he was involved in helping 2 A I canlt speak for other people, no.the homeless. Have you had any work with him 3 ~ Have you ever made any observation that awith regards to that? 4 tenant, who you were seeking to gain access to

~ A I have seen some of the properties, yes. 5 their unit when you had Officer Koehnen along,6 ~ Some of the properties that are being remodeled 6 ever seemed to be apprehensive as to his size?7 so that people have a place to stay? 7 A No.8 A I don't know if they are being remodeled. I 8 ~ This issue that you talked about that you9 have seen them when they have been occupied. 9 thought was potentially racial in nature, the10 ~ What is your understanding of Mr. Koehnen's 10 unfounded complaints of the property I think you11 role, with regards to what he testified to 11 mentioned six or eight times, did you in fact12 during the day of his deposition, about the 12 come to a conclusion that those complaints were13 charitable cause that he's involved in? 13 race based?14 A I don't understand your question. 14 A I couldn I t say.15 ~ Do you remember what he said about his work for 15 ~ It was a white neighbor complaining about a16 the homeless? 16 black neighbor?17 A No. 17 A Yes.18 Q Have you had any discussions with him about his 18 Q Did the African American own the home?19 work in that regard? 19 A Yes.20 A No. 20 Q Have you ever seen any other situations, as an21 Q So you don't have any idea as to what he was 21 inspector in the City of St. Paul, where22 referring to? 22 something similar to that occurred?23 A Not really. 23 A I may have. I just don't recall anything else.24 Q He said once a year he was involved on behalf of 24 (Brief recess, 6: 50-7: 10 p.m.)~__t_h_e_h_om_e_le_s_s? -t-2_5 M_R_._S_HO_E_MA_K_ER_:_W_e_h_ad_a_d_i_sc_u_ss_i_on__

«2 4«A Well, they do -- I think it was the fundraiser 1

that they did at the Armory. 2Q So what do you know about that? 3A I believe he was a co-chair where they were able 4

to find a bunch of companies to donate different 5things. And they had different stations for the 6homeless people to get haircuts, free meals, 7medical atrention, jackets, blankets, stuff like 8that. 9

Q What do you know about Mr. Koehnen I s assignment 10to NHPI? Do you know how that occurred? 11

A No, I don't. 12~ Were there any other officers that were being 13

considered for that particular role? 14A I don't know. 15~ Do you believe that Officer Koehnen's large size 16

helps you gain access to interiors of 17properties? 18

A I have never thought about it. 19Q As you sit here today, do you think that his 20

size helps you gain access to interiors of 21pro~rt~? ~

A No. 23Q You don't belief his size and his being a police 24

officer intimidates some occupants so that they 25

1234567891011121314151617181920~

EXHIBIT 21


447

taking --

problem with 910?MR. SHOEMAKER: With 910 I don't

know if there's a problem, but they both were atthe same time and they're both with Ms. Martinand Officer Koehnen and they both have tenantremedy cases. I just want to confirm that wehave got all of the documents out of that NAPIfile.

MS. SEEBA: Are you takingMr. Magner's deposition or are you and Mr. Engelsplitting the deposition?

MR. SHOEMAKER: Matt, are you

MR. ENGEL: I will have a fewexhibits and a few questions.

MS. SEEBA: My other thought is Ican bring them to the deposition. So when he'sasking questions, you can be looking at thoseoriginal files.

MR. SHOEMAKER: That's fine becauseI'll probably start the deposition. So as longas they're at the -- if you bring them with,then on a break I can look at them or I can lookat them at the end of the day. It depends on ifMatt starts or I start. That would be fine.

MS. SEEBA: I will probably havethem pulled and set out at NHPI for you at 1:00p.m. tomorrow.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Do you think 1:00is okay?

d.232425

445happened today. If you want to go through those 1five files and ask her about her code 2enforcement, I think that's what is appropriate 3for the 23rd. I do not want to waste time in 4

~ areas that have been covered or should have been 56 covered today. 6 MS. SEEBA: I will spend time7 HR. SHOEMAKER: That I s fine. I 7 getting them pulled.8 want to deal with her with regard to those 8 MR. SHOEMAKER: Can you get through9 properties that the plaintiffs had that are 9 the data practices stuff that might be in there?10 subject to the complaints and any of the tenant 10 MS. SEEBA: Well, it should be done11 remedy cases that came out of those code 11 because I'm giving you something I I ve already12 enforcement actions on any of those properties. 12 given you.13 MS. SEEBA: Okay. 13 MR. SHOEMAKER: 1'mtalking about14 MR. SHOEMAKER: Then also, Louise, 14 looking at the originals at NHPI. Is that going15 are you agreeing to bring from the NHPI office 15 to be a problem?16 the original file for 1024 Euclid? 16 MS. SEEBA: Honestly, I don't know17 MS. SEEBA: I will either bring it 17 if the redacted stuff is still redacted. There18 or I will have it recopied and sent to you as 18 still might be redacted tape on it.19 soon as I can. 19 MR. SHOEMAKER: If you need more20 MR. SHOEII.AKER: Call me and tell me 20 time, let me know. I just want to confirm that.21 if there is anything other than the Bates 21 That I s all. It's been on the burner here for a22 numbers that are in the -- because I will want 22 couple of days. I thought I've got to ask you23 to know that. 23 about that because that 1024 is -- there I s24 MS. SEEBA: You understand I don't 24 documents that haven't been there.~__O_f_fi_ce_at_NH_p_I,_SO_it_J_S_n_ot_th_a_t_e_as_y_f_o_r_m_e_t_o_-f-_2_5 M_S_._SE_E_BA_:_A_nd_no_w_9_1_0,_wh_a_t_'s_t_h_e__

446 448~. 1

MR. SHOEMAKER: I know that, but 2you can make a call over to Pat McGinn. 3

MS. SEEBA: It probably would be 4Pat. 5

MR. SHOEMAKER: Would you bring 6both 910 and 1024? 7

MS. SEEBA: Why 910? 8MR. SHOEMAKER: Because I want to 9

see that original file, too. 10MS. SEEBA: If you give me a 11

reason. You say that 1024 -- 12MR. SHOEMAKER: Don't I have a 13

right to look at the originals? 14MS. SEEBA: You have looked. 15MR. SHOEMAKER: You copied those 16

early on or Frank had someone copy them, and now 17I have been told that the 1024 should have other 18documents in it. I'm making a reasonable 19request. It shouldn't be that difficult to 20bring those jackets up. 21

MS. SEEBA: You can inspect them 22tomorrow. I can't be running around to NHPI. 23

MR. SHOEMAKER: Will you have them 24at your office? 25

12

f'

12345678910111213141516171819

~

EXHIBIT 21


449

MS. SEEBA: Yes.MR. SHOEMAKER: You might have to

do the data practices. Let me know on it. Ihate to have to go over there. If I don't haveto, if you can just get them and bring them.

MS. SEEBA: We can bring them toher deposition. I can have them pulled andbrought to you.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Off the record.(Adjourned deposition at 7:30 p.m.)

* * * * * * *

tomorrow?

That will work.MS. SEEBA: Okay.MR. SHOEMAKER: Instead of

:.>

6789101112131415161718192021222324

~-----------------------4-6-0-l

123r

2

STATE OF MINNESOTA)) ss

COUNTY OF HENNEPIN)

:3

4

I. Bronda K. Foss. CertIfied

Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public duly and

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

quallfled In and for the Stato of Mlnnosota do

hereby certIfy thoro camo boforo me tho deponent

heroIn. who was by me duly sworn to testify to

the truth and nothing but the truth concernIng

tho matters In this cause.

I further certify that the forogolng

transcrIpt Is a true and corroct transcrIpt of

my orIgInal stenographIc noto••

I furthor certify that I am nolther

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

attornoy or counsel for. nor rolatod to or

omployed by any of tho partlos to tho actIon In

which thl. doposltlon I. takon: and furthormoro,

that I am not a relatlve or employeo of any

attorney or counsel employed by the partlos

horeto or financIally Interostod In the actIon.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF. I havo horounto set

my hand and affIxed my NotarIal Seal thIs __

day of March. 2007.

23

24

25Brenda K. FossCourt Reportor

EXHIBIT 21


DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET

Re: Steinhauser, et a1. v. The City of S1. Paul, et a1.HarrilaI, et aI. v. The City of S1. Paul, et aI.Gallagher, et aI. v. The City of S1. Paul, et aI.

WITNESS: Lisa Martin

~ Line

60 16, 17

72 1

145 8

147 17

148 9

148 22

205 1

242 5

247 20

251 17

512 8

543 24

549 11

655 15

Desired ChanKe

That I'm there to do inspection if there is a complaint.

delete Q

No, but I know what a rodent infestation is.

Again, I don't know what your definition of infestation is.

Again, I don't know what your defmition of severe or infestation is.

I know what a rodent infestation is.

Again, I don't know what your defmition of severe or. infestation is.


Sure, that's what the legislative code is for.

utilize to give extensions or lessen time. We-relied on the legislative

code and enforced the code.

Again, I don't know what your definition of severe or infestation is.


discretion based upon, you know guidelines. Ultimately I am

enforcing the legislative code.

(delete "or landlords")

I can look and check on legislative code chapter 34 ifyou have that

with

Right. The throw may not have been long

I'd have to look back at legislative code chapter 34, but I believe

they

Page 1 of 2

EXHIBIT 21


660 6 because ofmy workload in problem properties. (delete the rest of

the sentence)

Subscribed and sworn to before methis 30th day ofMarch, 2007.

~#~'Notary Pu l"v-....:~...::lo-...--.....,.~-.---J~......-

• PAUlETTE L. YOlJl(ESSNOTARY PUBLIC· MINNESOTA

MY COMMISSION• EXPIRES JAN 31,2010

WITNESS:

~ Lh{)J(;/frnLisa Martin

Page 2 of 2

EXHIBIT 21


Spiritual

Lisa Martin Day 1 Deposition