Nevertheless, the basic points that (1) sensory consciousness is necessarily stopped in jhna, and (2) that jhna requires a vision of a light or form nimitta, are simply never stated or implied in the sutta-s.Of course jhna requires a nimitta, both in terms of cause and in terms of mental sign. One of the four satipahna-s is the nimitta which serves as the cause for the eventual elimination of the five hindrances and, beyond that, the arising of the five concomitant mental factors (pacagika) of the first jhna. And the mental sign of the first jhna, according to the sutta-s, is the presence of these five mental factors: non-sensual (nirmis) pti and sukha, as well as vitakka, vicra, and cittekaggat. This is not only the content of the standard jhna formula (except cittekaggat), it is mentioned in the context of the nimitta of the first jhna in the discourses (e.g. A iv 418: ...idhekacco bhikkhu paito byatto khetta kusalo vivicceva kmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakka savicra vivekaja ptisukha pahama jhna upasampajja viharati. So ta nimitta sevati bhveti bahulkaroti svdhihita adhihti.). The presence of these concomitant mental factors is the sign of having attained jhna.Analayo (Grasping): In fact, at a later point the Upakkilesa-sutta speaks of directing attention to the meditative experience of forms or to that of light in terms of the rpanimitta and the obhsanimitta (MN III 161). This passage explicitly uses the term nimitta to refer to the vision of light and forms that Anuruddha and his companions had been unable to stabilize, a usage where nimitta unequivocally stands for something that is perceived. From this it seems that the Upakkilesa-sutta could indeed be describing the development of the mental nimitta required in order to enter the first absorption. A: Not even the Visuddhimagga limits counterpart signs to visions of light or forms. According to the Visuddhimagga analysis, of the 30 meditations which lead to jhna, 22 have counterpart signs as object. And of these, only 19 require any sort of counterpart sign which is apprehended based solely on sight, and can therefore give rise to a mental image resulting from that nimitta (the 10 stages of corpse decomposition and 9 kasia-s, excluding the air kasia which is apprehended by way of both sight and tactile sensation).As for the Upakkilesa Sutta, nowhere in this sutta does it say that either the obhsanimitta or the rpanimitta are essential prerequisites for attaining the first jhna. Nor does this sutta maintain that the stopping of all sensory consciousness whatsoever is essential for the arising of either of these two signs. Therefore, while these apperceptions and visions can occur during the course of of meditational development, there is no explicit statement here, or elsewhere in the suttas, that such apperceptions and/or visions must arise for one to enter jhna. Indeed, even the commentarial tradition doesnt maintain that either of these types of nimitta-s are essential. Also, the Vimuttimagga understands the teaching in the Upakkilesa Sutta to refer to the development of the divine eye. This is understandable as Anuruddh was designated as the foremost disciple endowed with the divine eye.Analayo (Grasping): Elsewhere the discourses also refer to the "sign of tranquillity", samathanimitta (DN III 213; SN V 66; SN V 105), to the "sign of concentration", samdhinimitta (DN III 226; DN III 242; DN III 279; MN I 249; MN I 301; MN III 112; AN I 115; AN I 256; AN II 17; AN III 23; AN III 321), and to the "sign of the mind", cittanimitta (SN V 151; AN III 423; Th 85). The unique contribution made by the Upakkilesa-sutta is that it offers a report of actual practice that involves the nimitta in a context geared towards absorption attainment.A: None of these references refer to any of these nimitta-s being an obhsanimitta or rpanimitta related to the context of the Upakkilesa Sutta. The Upakkilesa Sutta is the only discourse where nimitta is used in that context.Analayo (Grasping): Elsewhere the discourses in fact indicate that during the firstabsorption it is impossible to speak (SN IV 217), and the hearing of sounds is an obstruction to its attainment (AN V 135).With the first absorption one has gone beyond Mra's vision(MN I 159), having reached the end of the world of the senses(AN IV 430). These passages confirm that the first absorptionis indeed a state during which the mind is "absorbed" in deepconcentration.A: According to Ven. Anlayos interpretation of S iv 217 it would be impossible to breathe in the fourth jhna or any of the formless attainments. Although this interpretation has also been put forward over the centuries, IMO its not a correct interpretation of the discourse. One doesnt speak in the first jhna because there is no volitional intention to do so. And while breathing can slow to the point of being imperceptible in the fourth jhna, this doesnt mean that one has completely ceased breathing. Breathing even when imperceptible is an involuntary process.As far as sounds are concerned, A iii 137 states that one must be able to tolerate sounds to both enter and remain in sammsamdhi. And sammsamdhi is most commonly defined as the four jhna-s in the discourses, as is the training of heightened mind (adhicittasikkh), as well as the faculty of concentration (samdhindriya) and the strength of concentration (samdhibala) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariyasvaka). There is simply no integrated eightfold path without the inclusion of jhna in the suttantika sense of jhna.And A iv 430 doesnt say what Ven. Anlayo wants it to say. The kmagun (strings of sensuality) metaphor only applies to sensory phenomena that are wished for and desired, agreeable and endearing, associated with sense-desire and tempting to lust. A iii 410 tells us that they are not inherently kma in and of themselves. MN 13: Mahdukkhakkhandha Sutta tells us that they are the allure (or gratification) of kma. It goes on to tell us that its the abandoning of desire-passion (chandarga) for sensuality, which is the escape from kma. Thus external sensory objects are only strings of kma insofar as they are desired and wished for. Returning to A iv 430, it states that it is only with the attainment of the cessation of apperception and feeling that one actually comes to the end of the world (an attainment not necessary for liberation).BTW, Ven. Anlayo goes to significant lengths to suggest that sammsamdhi is actually satipahna, and yet he also maintains that jhna which he acknowledges is necessary at some point on the noble eightfold path is an absorption somehow beyond sammsamdhi.Regarding what else is present or absent in the four jhna-s, S v 214 states that the pleasure faculty (sukhindriya) doesnt cease until the third jhna, and S v 211 defines the pleasure faculty as pleasure born of body contact. S iv 236 further tells us that nirmis pti and sukha are what is experienced in jhna hence the pti and sukha of jhna are non-sensual, yet sukha is still born of body contact.Moreover, M i 293 and A iv 426 both explicitly state that it is only when abiding in the fully purified formless attainments that the mind is isolated from the five sense faculties and doesnt attend to any apperceptions of the five sensory spheres. Its worth quoting both. MN 43 Mahvedalla Sutta:Friend, what can be known with the purified mental-consciousness (manovia) isolated from the five [sense] faculties?Friend, with the purified mental-consciousness isolated from the five faculties the sphere of infinite space can be known as infinite space. The sphere of infinite consciousness can be known as infinite consciousness. The sphere of nothingness can be known as there is nothing.AN 9.37 Ananda Sutta:Q: during first jhana one can still sense the body - but are you all really sure it is the physical body we sense?A: I suspect that we are coming to this discussion from somewhat different perspectives. For myself, it doesn't really matter what you or I or anyone else thinks jhna is; for the purposes of discussion I'm mainly interested in what the discourses have to say on the matter. And from the statements I cited on my previous post from M i 293 and A iv 426, there is no reason to exclude the body, or any other phenomena, from what can be experienced in jhna.Neither of those statements from M i 293 or A iv 426 are of interpretive meaning (neyyattha). They aren't in need of further interpretation. They are of definitive meaning (ntattha). They speak directly in terms of the faculties (indriya-s) and sense spheres (yatana-s). A iv 426 is very explicit. Venerable nanda states that when not experiencing the form, sound, etc., yatana-s, one is percipient of one of the three formless perception attainments, or aphala samdhi.If it were the case that one cannot experience any of these yatana-s while abiding in the four jhna-s, then this discourse would have included the four jhna-s along with the three formless perception attainments and aphala samdhi.The same holds true for S v 214 and S v 211 regarding the pleasure and equanimity faculties (sukhindriya & upekkhindriya).Of course, the abhidhammikas reinterpreted all of this. And if one wants to follow that interpretation, that's fine by me.Q: The rupa body has form (usually takes the form of our physical body but is changeable), one can see with it, hear, touch, etc. How to discern it from the "gross"?A: As DN 11 states, "And what is the gross acquisition of a self? Possessed of form,made up of the four great existents, feeding on physical food: this is the gross acquisition of a self. And what is the mind-made acquisition of a self? Possessed of form,mind-made, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties: this is the mind-made acquisition of a self. And what is the formless acquisition of a self? Formless andmade of perception: this is the formless acquisition of a self."The first type of "form" (rpa) is made of the "four great elements" (ctu-mahbhta), i.e. matter, etc.. The second type of "rpa" is "mind-made" (manomaya). The third is formless (arpa) and made of perception (samaya). As best as I can remember, tradition maintains that deities of the higher form-realm planes don't have all of the six senses (but I can't remember the specifics).Q: Do you know the Pali terms used in the Potthapada sutta for "the gross acquisition of a self", "the mind-made acquisition of a self", and "formless acquisition of a self"?A: They are oriko attapailbho, manomayo attapailbho, arpo attapailbho.Q: 3. The problem of the Infinite Space formula, and the affliction formula for 1st Jhana.Is the sanna in rupasanna of the Infinite Space formula, perception as in the effect of apperception consequent on phassa/contact with rupa, or can it mean something other than that? The PED attests to sannas polysemous character and includes idea as a meaning of sanna (4th entry). This is perhaps the most congruent reading of rupasanna in the context of the attainment of Infinite Space. One abandons the idea of rupa so totally to arrive at Infinite Space.A: The sphere of infinite space formula also states with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance (paighasana)....DN 15 states: "If, nanda, all those modes, characteristics, signs and exponents, by which the form-group is designated were absent, would there be manifest any resistance-contact (paighasamphasso) in the name-group?" "There would not, lord."The form group is the four great existents and derivatives of them. So the implication is that resistance contact is present in the four jhna-s.As I said in a previous post, M i 293 and A iv 426 both explicitly state that it is only when abiding in the fully purified formless attainments that the mind is isolated from the five sense faculties and doesnt attend to any apperceptions of the five sensory spheres.Neither of those statements from M i 293 or A iv 426 are of interpretive meaning (neyyattha). They aren't in need of further interpretation. They are of definitive meaning (ntattha). They speak directly in terms of the faculties (indriya-s) and sense spheres (yatana-s). A iv 426 is very explicit. Venerable nanda states that when not experiencing the form, sound, etc., yatana-s, one can be percipient of one of the three formless perception attainments, or aphala samdhi.If it were the case that one cannot experience any of these yatana-s while abiding in the four jhna-s, then this discourse would have included the four jhna-s along with the three formless perception attainments and aphala samdhi.The same holds true for S v 214 and S v 211 regarding the pleasure and equanimity faculties (sukhindriya & upekkhindriya).Of course, the abhidhammikas reinterpreted all of this. And if one wants to follow that interpretation, that's fine by me.Q: 4. The kaya problem - which "kaya" is suffused with Jhanic bliss?I think the Commentaries are right to equate this "kaya" with the cetasika kayaA: S v 214 states that the pleasure faculty (sukhindriya) doesnt cease until the third jhna, and S v 211 defines the pleasure faculty as pleasure born of body contact. S iv 236 further tells us that nirmis pti and sukha are what is experienced in jhna hence the pti and sukha of jhna are non-sensual, yet sukha is still born of body contact according to suttantika analysis.Q: Neither is it possible to argue that perhaps the body does not feel pleasure, but is purely equanimous. Here, the Mahaniddana Sutta DN 15 will permit only one feeling to be experienced at a time. If it's sukha, the dukkha and neutral feelings cannot be present at that time.A: Please refer to S v 214 for which feeling faculties cease in which jhna-s.Q: Are the predicates that follow "form" adjectives that limit the kamaguna to only forms which are agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing?A: Do you truly experience all sights, sounds, odors, flavors, and tactile sensations as agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing? What about the odor and flavor of uncooked, rotting meat? Or feces? How about the tactile sensations which arise from placing your hand on a red hot electric stove element? Or taking a bath in sulphuric acid? I can say with certainty that I dont find any of those sense experiences agreeable in any way.Q: Cakkhuvieyy rp ih kant manp piyarp kmpasahit rajany ie forms cognisable by the eye - agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing.Are the predicates that follow "form" adjectives that limit the kamaguna to only forms which are agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing?A: Indeed they are. I forgot to mention the following from SN 47.6 (S v 146), which differentiates between the kmagua-s and the four satipahna-s. It's worth remembering in this regard that the contemplation of the body satipahna includes objects of contemplation such as mindfulness of breathing, the foul parts of the body, and the stages of corpse decomposition. Clearly the body, the tactile sensations associated with the breath, the 32 parts of the body, and the stages of corpse decomposition are not considered to be "strings of sensuality." SN 47.6 (S v 146):Q: So from my point of experience I would say that kayanupassana is different from jhana.A: Please see MN 119: Kyagatsati Sutta section on jhna.Q: I found an occurence where Sariputta on being asked what is 1st jhana gives the usual formula with 4 factors, and in the immediate next question about how many factors there are in 1st jhana he states 5 and adds cittekaggata...A: It isn't a problem at all. IMO the few occurrences which list five factors are not as old as the basic jhna formula. At any rate, the list of five factors doesn't add or take away anything from the formula for the first jhna.A2: In the Pi sutta-s the parts of the body are forms derived from the four great existents (mahbht). SN 22.56 (S iii 59) Updnaparivatta Sutta:And what is form? The four great existents and the form derived from them: this is called form. From the origination of nutriment comes the origination of form. From the cessation of nutriment comes the cessation of form. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of form, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.SN 22.79 (S iii 86): Khajjanya Sutta:And why do you call it 'form'? Because it is afflicted, thus it is called 'form.' Afflicted with what? With cold & heat & hunger & thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles. Because it is afflicted, it is called form.For an analysis of the six elements as they pertain to a living sentient being, seeMN 140: Dhtuvibhaga Sutta.Actually it is precisely the other way around: earth (solidity), water (cohesion), fire (temperature), and air (motility) are considered primary. All other forms, both internal and external, are derived from these four great existents ((mahbht).Primary or not-derived (noupd) in the sense that they cannot be further reduced via phenomenological analysis. All other forms are considered to be comprised of combinations of earth (solidity), water (cohesion), fire (temperature), and air (motility). Therefore, all other forms are considered to be derived form (updya rpa).Respectfully, it seems that you are unwilling to acknowledge that the Pi sutta-sexplicitlydefine the four elements: the earth element (pathavdhtu), water element (podhtu), fire element (tejodhtu), and the wind element (vyodht), in terms of the constituent parts of the "biological body" which is one and the same as the gross body (DN 9: "I posit a gross self, possessed of form, made up of the four great existents [earth, water, fire, and wind], feeding on physical food.")Other passages from the relevant discourses dealing with the analysis of the four elements have already been provided. Yet, you continue to insist upon reading notions into the sutta-s which simply are not stated or implied by any of the discourses dealing with the elements.Moreover, it seems that you are unwilling to comprehend the soteriological purpose of contemplating the elements in meditation practice. The purpose is to develop renunciation (nekkhamma), disenchantment (nibbid), dispassion (virga), eventually resulting in liberation (vimutti) from the continual round of rebirth and re-death which is sasra. The contemplation of the elements as an application of mindfulness (satipahna) has nothing to do with developing the iddhi-sper se.And FTR, in the context of the Pi sutta-s, the iddhi-s are considered mundane and superfluous. In DN 11: Kevaa Sutta the Buddha states:Seeing this drawback to the miracle of psychic power, Kevatta, I feel horrified, humiliated, and disgusted with the miracle of psychic power....Seeing this drawback to the miracle of telepathy, Kevatta, I feel horrified, humiliated, and disgusted with the miracle of telepathy.MN 1 shows that there's no need to ever read any realist ontology or metaphysics of any sort into the discourses.Q: By a coincidence, the schema in the Uppatipatika Sutta mirrors the Dhammasangini's enumeration of dhammas in the Rupa Jhanas - which text influenced what text?A: There is little doubt that SN 48.40 is the product of rather late redaction of the sutta corpus. This can be inferred because there is no parallel in the extant Sarvstivda corpus, and the relevant stra cited in the Abhidharmakoabhsya, the *Satyasiddhistra, and the Yogcra rvakabhmi gives an analysis of the feeling faculties in dhyna which is closer to the standard jhna/dhyna formula.Nevertheless, given that SN 48.36-48.39 define the feeling faculties the way they do, these vibhaga sutta-s are enough to differentiate the suttantika interpretation of SN 48.40 from how the feeling faculties in relation to jhna are defined in the Abhidhamma Piaka.A2: Indeed. Its worth noting just how closely related mindfulness of the body (kynupassan, kyagatsati) and the mental factors of mindfulness and full awareness (sati and sampajaa) are to the development of the four jhna-s. This can be seen from the following sutta excerpts. [AN 8.63] [SN 47.4] [AN 1.227] [MN 119] [MN 125] [SN 47.8] [MN 38]Seeing that they have been abandoned within him,he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil (ptimanassa kyo passambhati). His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure (passaddhakyo sukha vedeti). Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated (sukhino citta samdhiyati). [DN 2]Q: Jhana is the same. The mind hasekkagattacittaor one-pointed mind. The mind is stuck on the arisiennimitta& factors of jhana. Mind awareness is no longer within the body (kayanupassana) but the body receives the flowing benefits of jhana.But the mind has gone beyong being aware of this. The mind is elsewhere.A: What you are describing is a case of being "stuck internally" (MN 138). Such a description of jhna as sammsamdhi cannot be sustained by a close reading of the sutta-s.Phenomena present and abandoned in each jhna the five hindrances are abandoned (pacanvara): sensual desire (kmacchanda), aversion (vypda), dullness and drowsiness (thnamiddha), restlessness and anxiety (uddhaccakukkucca), doubt (vicikicch) [MN 43]1st jhna: pain faculty ceases (dukkhindriya) [SN 48.40] which is any physical pain, physical discomfort born of body-contact to be experienced as pain and discomfort [SN 48.37] apperception of sensual pleasure ceases (kmasa) [DN 9, AN 9.31]; sensual pleasure (kma) is the resolve of passion (sakapparga) [AN 6.63] unskillful resolves cease (akusal sakapp), which are the resolves of sensual pleasure, aversion, harmfulness (kmasakappa, bypdasakappa, vihissakappa) [MN 117] sign of first jhna (nimitta): the first jhna which includes directed thought and evaluation, as well as rapture and pleasure born of seclusion; he sticks with that sign, develops it, pursues it, and establishes himself firmly in it [AN 9.35] directed thought and evaluation are present (vitakkavicr) [DN 22: standard jhna formula] non-carnal rapture and pleasure are present (nirmis pti, nirmisa sukha) [SN 36.31] actual refined apperception of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion is present (vivekajaptisukhasukhumasaccasa) [DN 9] rapture of seclusion (viveka pti): When a noble disciple enters and remains in the rapture of seclusion, at that time five things do not occur for him: (1) pain and unhappiness connected with sensual pleasure do not exist at that time; (2) pleasure and happiness connected with sensual pleasure do not exist at that time; (3) pain and unhappiness connected with the unskillful do not exist at that time; (4) pleasure and happiness connected with the unskillful do not exist at that time; (5) pain and unhappiness connected with the skillful do not exist at that time. [AN 5.176] clear seeing of mental phenomena one by one as they occur (anupadadhammavipassan): Whatever mental phenomena there are in the first jhna: directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, apperception, intention, mind, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention; he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' (Ye ca pahame jhne dhamm vitakko ca vicro ca pti ca sukhaca cittekaggat ca, phasso vedan sa cetan citta chando adhimokkho vriya sati upekkh manasikro tyssa dhamm anupadavavatthit honti. Tyssa dhamm vidit uppajjanti, vidit upahahanti, vidit abbhattha gacchanti. So eva pajnti eva kirame dhamm ahutv sambhonti, hutv paiventi.) [MN 111] seeing the three characteristics of the five aggregates (samanupassati): He sees whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, apperception, fabrications, and consciousness, as impermanent, unsatisfactory, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. (So yadeva tattha hoti rpagata vedangata sagata sakhragata viagata, te dhamme aniccato dukkhato rogato gaato sallato aghato bdhato parato palokato suato anattato samanupassati.) [MN 64, AN 9.36]2nd jhna: unhappiness faculty ceases (domanassindriya) [SN 48.40] which is any mental pain, mental discomfort born of mind-contact to be experienced as pain and discomfort [SN 48.37] directed thought and evaluation ceases (vitakkavicr) [AN 9.31] skillful resolves cease (kusal sakapp), which are the resolves of renunciation, non-aversion, harmlessness (nekkhammasakappa, abypdasakappa, avihissakappa) [MN 117] sign of second jhna (nimitta): the second jhna which has internal serene-clarity and unification of mind free from thought and evaluation, and has rapture and pleasure born of concentration; he sticks with that sign, develops it, pursues it, and establishes himself firmly in it [AN 9.35] non-carnal rapture and pleasure are present (nirmis pti, nirmisa sukha) [SN 36.31] actual refined apperception of rapture and pleasure born of concentration is present (samdhijaptisukhasukhumasaccasa) [DN 9] clear seeing of mental phenomena one by one as they occur (anupadadhammavipassan): same as first jhna minus eliminated mental phenomena [MN 111] seeing the three characteristics of the five aggregates (samanupassati): same as first jhna minus eliminated mental phenomena [MN 64, AN 9.36]3rd jhna: pleasure faculty ceases (sukhindriya) [SN 48.40, AN 9.31] which is any physical pleasure, physical comfort born of body-contact to be experienced as pleasure and comfort [SN 48.37] sign of third jhna (nimitta): he remains equanimous, mindful and fully aware, and experiences pleasure with the body; he sticks with that sign, develops it, pursues it, and establishes himself firmly in it [AN 9.35] pleasure of equanimity is present (upekkhsukha) [AN 9.42] non-carnal pleasure is present (nirmisa sukha) [SN 36.31] actual refined apperception of equanimity is present (upekkhsukhasukhumasaccasa) [DN 9] clear seeing of mental phenomena one by one as they occur (anupadadhammavipassan): same as first jhna minus eliminated mental phenomena [MN 111] seeing the three characteristics of the five aggregates (samanupassati): same as first jhna minus eliminated mental phenomena [MN 64, AN 9.36]4th jhna: happiness faculty ceases (somanassindriya) [SN 48.40] which is any mental pleasure, mental comfort born of mind-contact to be experienced as pleasure and comfort [SN 48.37] in and out breathing has been calmed, has been stilled, has ceased (asssapasss) [SN 36.11, AN 9.31] sign of fourth jhna (nimitta): the fourth jhna, which is without pleasure or pain, and includes the purity of equanimity and mindfulness; he sticks with that sign, develops it, pursues it, and establishes himself firmly in it [AN 9.35] non-carnal equanimity is present (nirmis upekkh) [SN 36.31] actual refined apperception of neither pleasure nor pain is present (adukkhamasukhasukhumasaccasa) [DN9] apperception of form is present (rpasa) [AN 9.42] clear seeing of mental phenomena one by one as they occur (anupadadhammavipassan): same as first jhna minus eliminated mental phenomena [MN 111] seeing the three characteristics of the five aggregates (samanupassati): same as first jhna minus eliminated mental phenomena [MN 64, AN 9.36]Formless attainments: only when abiding in the fully purified formless attainments is the mind isolated from the five sense faculties [MN 43] and does not experience any of the five sensory spheres [AN 9.37]Attainment of the cessation of apperception and feeling: equanimity faculty ceases (upekkhindriya) [SN 48.40]Q: I think, that if we allow for the possibility that "kyikaca vedana" actually refers to feelings born at any of the 6 ayatanas, many of the difficulties posed by the Uppapatika Sutta, SN 40.10 would disappear. Otherwise, it would really be difficult to reconcile the persistance of the "bodily" equanimity feeling in the formless attainment with how the formless attainments are understood.A: Regarding the Uppaipika Sutta (SN 48.40). since it is speaking specifically about the five feeling indriya-s in relation to the jhna-s, if we first look at what other sutta-s have to tell us on these specific points, then we can find a very satisfactory reading of the Uppaipika Sutta.First, if we look at AN 9.42 it tells us that the pleasure commonly referred to in the descriptions of the third jhna is actually the pleasure of equanimity (upekkhsukha). This accords well with SN 48.40, when it states that the pleasure faculty (sukhindriya) ceases in the third jhna. What remains is the equanimity faculty (upekkhindriya) and the happiness faculty (somanassindriya), which in light of SN 48.37, in the third jhna refers to bodily equanimity (kya upekkh) and mental pleasure (cetasika sukha).And when SN 48.40 tells us that the happiness faculty (somanassindriya) ceases in the fourth jhna, what remains is both bodily and mental equanimity (kya & cetasika upekkh) as stated in SN 48.37.With regard to the formless attainments, since MN 43 states that it is with the attainment of the fully purified formless apperception attainments that the mind is isolated from the five sense faculties and AN 9.37 states that the same is the case with regard to the experience of the five sensory spheres, we can deduce from this that with entrance into the formless attainments bodily equanimity (kya upekkh) is no longer experienced, and what remains is mental equanimity (cetasika upekkh). And as SN 48.40 states, the equanimity faculty, i.e. mental equanimity, ceases with the attainment of the cessation of apperception and feeling.Once again the sutta-s explicate themselves, revealing an integral symmetry and remarkably high degree of internal coherence.Also, if we look at some discourses where the reference is specifically to the first satipahna, then it becomes clear that the meaning of kya in the context of jhna doesn't entail interpreting it in terms of nmakya, and in fact to interpret it as nmakya is completely uncalled for. As an example, MN 125:Then the Tathagata trains him further: 'Come, monk, remain focused on the body in & of itself, but do not think any thoughts connected with the body.' (Tamena tathgato uttari vineti 'ehi tva, bhikkhu, kye kynupass viharhi , m ca kmpasahita vitakka vitakkesi.') ... With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhna: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation internal assurance.And AN 8.63:You should train yourself thus: I will remain focused on the body in & of itself ardent, alert, & mindful putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. (Eva sikkhitabba: kye kynupass viharissmi tp sampajno satim, vineyya loke abhijjhdomanassanti. Evahi te, bhikkhu, sikkhitabba. Yato kho te, bhikkhu, aya samdhi eva bhvito hoti bahulkato, tato tva, bhikkhu, ima samdhi savitakkasavicrampi bhveyysi, avitakkavicramattampi bhveyysi, avitakkaavicrampi bhveyysi, sapptikampi bhveyysi, nipptikampi bhveyysi, stasahagatampi bhveyysi, upekkhsahagatampi bhveyysi.And AN 1.227:When one thing is practiced & pursued, the body is calmed (kya passambhati), the mind is calmed (citta passambhati), thinking & evaluating are stilled (vitakkavicr vpasama), and all qualities on the side of clear knowing go to the culmination of their development. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body (kyagatsati).Q: About kmA: SN 47.6 (S v 146) differentiates between the kmagua-s and the four satipahna-s. It's worth remembering in this regard that the contemplation of the body satipahna includes objects of contemplation such as mindfulness of breathing, the foul parts of the body, and the stages of corpse decomposition. In light of this differentiation, the body, the tactile sensations associated with the breath, the 32 parts of the body, and the stages of corpse decomposition are not considered to be strings of sensuality. SN 47.6:[Y]ou should not wander into what is not your proper range and is the territory of others. In one who wanders into what is not his proper range and is the territory of others, Mara gains an opening, Mara gains a foothold. And what, for a monk, is not his proper range and is the territory of others? The five strands of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable by the eye agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable by the ear... Aromas cognizable by the nose... Flavors cognizable by the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable by the body agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These, for a monk, are not his proper range and are the territory of others.Surely you wouldnt suggest that one must be isolated from the five sensory spheres in order to engage in kynupassan?A: What constitutes a kmagua is subjective, based on the apperception of the observer.A: Youre missing the distinction between carnal and non-carnal rapture and pleasure (smis pti & sukha vs. nirmis pti & sukha) [SN 36.31]. And in case youre going to suggest that non-carnal rapture and pleasure cannot be experienced via the five sense spheres, Ill refer you to the DN 22 commentary.A: AN 9.42: apperception of form (rpasa) is present in the fourth jhna. I see no good reason to interpret this as conceptions of form or memories of form, etc. Any such adventitious conceptions and memories that do not pertain to what is being immediately experienced in the fourth jhna would be an obstacle to the highly refined samdhi of this jhna.A: Actually Ven. nanda gives four meditative states: the three formless apperception attainments and aphala samdhi. Given the importance of the four jhna-s to the integral eightfold path of the sutta-s, if the jhna-s were definable in such terms, then this sutta would have included them.A: Because SN 48.37 expressly differentiates between kyika/cetasika and kyosamphassa/manosamphassa with regard to the feeling faculties.A: I still dont see how you arrive at the conclusion that sukha and dukkha arising from mind-contact in MN 148 must refer tokyikavedan based on SN 36.6?SN 48.38 states that the sukhindriya and somanassindriya are both sukha vedan. And the dukkhindriya and domanassindriya are both dukkha vedan. Thus, based on the analysis of this vibhaga sutta the sukha and dukkha arising from mind-contact in MN 148 are actually somanassa and domanassa. They are both cetasika vedan arising from manosamphassa. Neither of them are kyika vedan.Q: So, the commentary above, if taken on the terms of the suttanta understanding of somanassa as a cetasika vedana, does not say that somanassa directly issues from phassa at the salayatana. It issues from subsequent phassa at the mano and can be understood to simply say -"Other-wordly pleasure is the name for the 6 pleasantcetasikafeelings connected with the life of renunciation"A: Yes, I agree. My point was just that the commentary interprets both carnal and non-carnal feelings in terms of somanassa & domanassa, and body-contact would be present at some stage of the momentary cognitive series for the subsequent fifth type of either carnal or non-carnal pleasure to arise.A: Yes, I followed your analysis of the two sutta-s. But it seems to me, as I replied above, given that SN 48.38 states that the sukhindriya and somanassindriya are both sukha vedan and the dukkhindriya and domanassindriya are both dukkha vedan, therefore, based on the analysis of this vibhaga sutta the sukha and dukkha arising from mind-contact in MN 148 are actually somanassa and domanassa. They are both cetasika vedan arising from manosamphassa. Neither of them are kyika vedan followed by cetasika vedan.Do you have a third sutta source which specifically states that vedan arising from manosamphassa is kyika?A: SN 48.37 and SN 48.38 are exactly the same as SN 48.36 with the appropriate additions which bear directly on what is stated in 48.36.A: SN 48.39 speaks of all five faculties just as the preceding three vibhaga discourses do (SN.48.36-38). SN 48.39: Sukhavedaniya, bhikkhave, phassa paicca uppajjati sukhindriya.... Dukkhavedaniya, bhikkhave, phassa paicca uppajjati dukkhindriya.... Somanassavedaniya, bhikkhave, phassa paicca uppajjati somanassindriya.... Domanassavedaniya, bhikkhave, phassa paicca uppajjati domanassindriya.... Upekkhvedaniya, bhikkhave, phassa paicca uppajjati upekkhindriya....As such, the faculties mentioned in SN 48.39 are to be analyzed in exactly the same way as SN 48.36-38. It doesnt leave open the possibility that kyika vedan is born of manosamphassa.A: They do: Katamaca, bhikkhave, somanassindriya? Ya kho, bhikkhave, cetasika sukha, cetasika sta, manosamphassaja sukha sta vedayita ida vuccati, bhikkhave, somanassindriya.Katamaca , bhikkhave, domanassindriya? Ya kho, bhikkhave, cetasika dukkha, cetasika asta, manosamphassaja dukkha asta vedayita ida vuccati, bhikkhave, domanassindriya....Tatra, bhikkhave, yaca sukhindriya yaca somanassindriya, sukh s vedan dahabb. Tatra, bhikkhave, yaca dukkhindriya yaca domanassindriya, dukkh s vedan dahabb.A: MN 137 is tangetical to this discussion of vedan in jhna which is very clearly analyzed with reference to SN 48.37-40 and other discourses which speak of vedan in jhna. I have already demonstrated this. But if we must look at MN 137, the statement in question is:In this case the Tathagata is not satisfied nor is he sensitive to satisfaction, yet he remains untroubled, mindful, & alert. (Tatra, bhikkhave, tathgato na ceva anattamano hoti, na ca anattamanata paisavedeti, anavassuto ca viharati sato sampajno.)Here the designation of anattamana is immediately qualified by anavassuto ca viharati sato sampajno. As for how anavassuta relates to mindfulness of the body and the liberated mind see SN 35.243 (S iv 186, CDB 1246, ATI SN 35.202).A: I can find nothing in any of these discourses which sustains your premise or the consequence of your premise, i.e. that vedan born of manosamphassa includes vedan born of kyasamphassa. Regarding just one example, the relevant statements in MN 149 simply highlight the interdependence of mind and body.A: You have yet to provide a source which states that kyika vedan is born of manosamphassa.A: There is nothing in the Salla Sutta to indicate that the context of bodily feeling under discussion extends beyond feelings associated with the physical body. The context the discourse is to highlight that when an instructed noble disciple experiences a painful physical feeling, they dont experience any mental distress because of that. Aversion doesnt arise towards it. They remain detached. The point is that although physical pain and sickness are unavoidable, there need not be any mental suffering because of it. MN 141 Saccavibhaga Sutta:A: MN 137 Sayatanavibhaga Sutta simply doesnt support you premise either. The entire discourse deals with somanassa, domanassa, and upekkh. It nowhere states anything about mental kyika feelings.A: You're missing the context and therefore the soteriological message of MN 137:Here, by depending & relying on the six kinds of renunciation joy, abandon & transcend the six kinds of household joy. Such is their abandoning, such is their transcending. By depending & relying on the six kinds of renunciation distress, abandon & transcend the six kinds of household distress. Such is their abandoning, such is their transcending. By depending & relying on the six kinds of renunciation equanimity, abandon & transcend the six kinds of household equanimity. Such is their abandoning, such their transcending.And finally: By depending & relying on non-fashioning, abandon & transcend the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness. Such is its abandoning, such its transcending.A: What I see is a category mistake of applying the term kyika to types of vedan which are not born of kyasamphassa.A: Firstly, there are six types of feeling: feeling born of eye contact, feeling born of ear contact, feeling born of nose contact, feeling born of tongue contact,feeling born of body contact,feeling born of mind contact(cakkhusamphassaj vedan, sotasamphassaj vedan, ghnasamphassaj vedan, jivhsamphassaj vedan,kyasamphassaj vedan,manosamphassaj vedan) as mentioned in SN 22.56.If we look at SN 48.38 we can see how this sixfold classification is relevant in regard to kyasamphassaj vedan and manosamphassaj vedan:Katamaca, bhikkhave, sukhindriya? Ya kho, bhikkhave, kyika sukha, kyika sta,kyasamphassajasukha sta vedayita ida vuccati, bhikkhave, sukhindriya.Katamaca, bhikkhave, dukkhindriya? Ya kho, bhikkhave, kyika dukkha , kyika asta,kyasamphassajadukkha asta vedayita ida vuccati, bhikkhave, dukkhindriya.Katamaca, bhikkhave, somanassindriya? Ya kho, bhikkhave, cetasika sukha, cetasika sta,manosamphassajasukha sta vedayita ida vuccati, bhikkhave, somanassindriya.Katamaca, bhikkhave, domanassindriya? Ya kho, bhikkhave, cetasika dukkha, cetasika asta,manosamphassajadukkha asta vedayita ida vuccati, bhikkhave, domanassindriya.There is nothing mentioned in SN 36.6 Salla Sutta to indicate that the bodily feeling under discussion (i.e. kyikaca vedan) extends beyond kyasamphassaj vedan. The context the discourse is to highlight that when a noble disciple experiences a painful bodily feeling, etc., they dont experience any mental distress because of that. Aversion doesnt arise towards it. They remain detached. The point is that although bodily pain and sickness are unavoidable, there need not be any mental suffering because of it.The following discourse where the Buddha visits a sick ward highlights how in this context a feeling of pain is dependent upon the body, and how the discernment of conditionality leads to the abandoning of the underlying tendency. SN 36.7 Pahamagelaa Sutta:Tassa ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno eva satassa sampajnassa appamattassa tpino pahitattassa viharato uppajjati dukkh vedan. So eva pajnti uppann kho myya dukkh vedan. S ca kho paicca, no appaicca. Ki paicca? Imameva kya paicca. Aya kho pana kyo anicco sakhato paiccasamuppanno. Anicca kho pana sakhata paiccasamuppanna kya paicca uppann dukkh vedan kuto nicc bhavissatti! So kye ca dukkhya vedanya aniccnupass viharati, vaynupass viharati, virgnupass viharati, nirodhnupass viharati, painissaggnupass viharati. Tassa kye ca dukkhya ca vedanya aniccnupassino viharatope painissaggnupassino viharato, yo kye ca dukkhya ca vedanya paighnusayo, so pahyati.A: The point of MN 137 Sayatanavibhaga Sutta is to illustrate the gradual stepwise transcendence of somanassa, domanassa, and upekkh. The end result of this stepwise transcendence is where the liberated mind has abandoned and transcended all somanassa, domanassa, and upekkh through non-fashioning (atammayata).Cetasika vedan (sukha, dukkha, or adukkhamasukha)isthe vedan simpliciter born of manosamphassa. All other affective defilements arising from the mind series proliferate from this. Theres no need to bring SN 36.6 into the analysis and assert that the primary vedan born of manosamphassa is a newly created category of kyika vedan pertaining to the six yatana-s when this isnt supported by the specific use of kyika and cetasika in the analysis of SN 48.38 nor the six types of feeling stated in SN 22.56, etc.Q: If you insist the 1st vedana that ensues from mind-contact based on recollection of previous acquisition to be cetasika vedana, it directly violates the Salla Sutta's injunction against Ariyans experiencing cetasika vedana (based on the kamagunas) or the anusayas.A: Again, MN 137 illustrates the gradual stepwise transcendence of somanassa, domanassa, and upekkh. A noble disciple abandons and transcends household somanassa in the process.Q: By your argument, any form of vedana born of manosamphassa must be cetasika vedana would imply that arahants can be touched by a cetasika vedana and will inexorably generate the corresponding anusayas.A: The liberated mind has abandoned all deluded affective and cognitive defilements with regard to both kyika and cetasika vedan. In terms of dependent arising, it isnt feeling thats the problem, its craving, which is rooted in ignorance.For example, MN 38 and MN 148.Q: Worse, cetasika vedanas WILL invariably trigger the anusayas (except in 3 cases outlined in MN 44).A: Forgot to mention that the relevant section from MN 44 just highlights the three instances where pleasant feeling, painful feeling, or neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling can be engaged as part of the path without reinforcing the underlying tendencies. Otherwise, in order to abandon the underlying tendencies one is to remain focused on the impermanence, dissolution, dispassion, cessation, and relinquishment of all feelings (aniccnupass viharati, vaynupass viharati, virgnupass viharati, nirodhnupass viharati, painissaggnupass viharati).Q: Since you applied this restrictive definition of "kyasamphassaj" from SN 22.56 to SN 48.38, I think it would also be legitimate to apply it to the Uppapatika Sutta in SN 48.40.A: Once again you're overreaching. There is nothing stated in SN 48.40 or in my analysis of SN 48.38 which necessitates the consequences that you wish to impose.Q: I think it is not logical to assert that SN 36.6's analysis of kayika vedana is restricted to vedana arising from the contact-triad of body, body-consciousness and tactility. If you are correct, this must mean that the 2nd dart can never arise from eye-, ear-, nose, or tongue-contact.A: There is nothing in my analysis of SN 36.6 which necessitates the consequence that you wish to impose.Q: I'm of the view that cetasika vedan is NOT the vedan simpliciter born of manosamphassa, but the complex range of emotions that are felt on manosamphassa's 1st Dart. Based on my understanding of how SN 36.6 intersects with SN 48.36 - 40, cetasika vedan has to be more complex than vedan simpliciter. Cetasika vedan is marked with qualities such as sorrow, lamentation, grieving, weeping, breast-beating. Essentially, that's domanassa, rather than the simple experience of pleasant, painful or neutral.A: You're certainly free to pursue any interpretive tangents that you wish. Nevertheless, cetasika vedan born of manosamphassa is a necessary condition for the arising of sorrow, lamentation, grieving, weeping, or breast-beating.Q: I know a lot of the modern readings of Jhana hinge on the suffusing of niramisa pitisukha through "this body" mentioned in MN 119.18-21. The modern readings equate this "body" with the rupakaya.A: Not only modern readings. The Vimuttimagga was written centuries before the Visuddhimagga. Ven. Upatissa, the author of the Vimuttimagga, was knowledgeable of and quotes from the Uppaipika Sutta, as well as the Dhammasagai and the Vibhaga of the Abidhamma Piaka, and the early paracanonical Nettipakaraa and Peakopadesa, etc. And when commenting on the bathman simile for the first jhna he had no difficulty stating:Just as the bath powder is moistened thoroughly and just as it, through adhering, does not scatter, so the yogin in the first jhna is filled with pti from head to foot and from foot to skull, skin, and hair. And: [Q.] Pti and sukha are called formless phenomena. How then can they fill the body?[A.] Nma depends on rpa. Rpa depends on nma. Therefore, if nma is full of pti, rpa is also full of pti. If nma is full of sukha, rpa is also full of sukha.And later in the same text:When the yogin enters into concentration, he hears sounds, but he is not able to speak because the faculty of hearing and that of speech are not united. To a man who enters form concentration, sound is disturbing. Hence the Buddha taught: To a man who enters jhna, sound is a thorn.Q: Well, I suppose I will have to invite you again to show how my reductio ad absurdum arguments are over-reaching.A: Thanks, but at this point Ill decline. Ive already invested more time in this discussion than I ever intended. You are certainly free to interpret the sutta-s according to your understanding of the Visuddhimagga, etc., but as I said previously, I believe that my reading of the sutta material pertaining to this subject is at this point consistent and displays the internal harmony and integral structure of the eightfold path as it was put together by the compilers of the sutta-s. In short, Ill stick with the early Pi sources and the Vimuttimagga.Q: Perhaps you would care to explain how your reliance on SN 22.56's definition of "kyasamphassaj vedana" was not intended to restrict SN 36.6's "kayika vedana"to the body that senses tactility.A: It was but that doesn't entail the consequences that you seem to think it does.Q: As for your reading of the Salla Sutta that cetasika vedana isthe condition forsorrow, lamentation etc, why add that interpretive overlay to the sutta's very simple proposition. Cetasika vedana IS sorrow, grieving, lamentation, breast beating and distress, and NOT merely the condition for grieving etc.A: If you think that sorrow (soka), grieving (parideva), etc., are not conditioned by cetasika dukkha, then thats fine by me.Q: since you do not wish to engage further to explain away the absurd logical consequences of your SN 22.56 readings on SN 48.40.A: Just because you assert that a statement leads to absurd consequences doesn't make it so Sylvester. I've spent considerable time showing the fallacious premises you've tried to establish in your previous failed attempts at reductio ad absurdum argumentation. Moreover, repeated reliance on reductio ad absurdum argumentation doesn't further the conversation. In the context of hermeneutics, repeatedly drawing on the most unlikely and therefore irrelevant extreme possible consequences of a textual interpretation is nothing more than an attempt at misdirection.Q: The problem is not with the Vimuttimagga, but the modern extrapolation that the eye, the nose, the ear, the tongue and the tactility organ can form phassa/contact with a dhamma and thereby cognise pitisukha at the 5 indriyas. That's a clear violation of MN 43.A: This has all the makings of another pointless attempt at misdirection. Either you really don't understand the indriya-s, yatana-s, and dhtu-s, or you're applying another idiosyncratic interpretation like your "kyika vedan pertaining to the six yatana-s" to this as well.Q: Forgive me for intruding and dragging this thread out, but can not the eye/ear/nose/tongue make contact with pitisukha due to the fact that they are parts of the body which we have tactile/spatial consciousness of, though not in the sense that they experience pitisukha in connection with their respective indriyas? If I'm missing something, let me know.A: There's no need to establish that the eye, etc., makes contact with ptisukhaper se. There is no such thing as contact (phassa) without consciousness. And kyika sukha is certainly cognized by body consciousness.Q: "SN 3.12 highlights what Ive been saying, i.e. what constitutes a string of sensuality for person A, may very well be revolting to person B, and hence, not a string of sensuality for them at all. Its entirely subjective.""What constitutes a kmagua is subjective, based on the apperception of the observer."I trust I have not misrepresented you on the above?A: Neither of those statements entails an "idealist model."Moreover, it has been shown that the discourses differentiate between the kmagua-s and the four satipahna-s, and also that kyasamphassa vedan is experienced in jhna. You have yet to cite one textual source which informs us that the body is a kmagua or that kyasamphassa vedan is not dependent on body phassa.Q: I thought I'd always confined them to forms, sounds, smells, tastes and tactility.A: What about the experience of breathing in and out (MN 10, kynupassan npnapabba, steps 1-3)? In the context of kynupassan do you know of any textual sources which inform us that tactual sensation associated with the breath is a kmagua, or that a feeling of pleasure associated with the experience of breathing in and out when engaging in kynupassan is carnal pleasure (smisa sukha)?How about the nimitta-s of the stages of corpse decomposition (i.e. apperception of a skeleton, apperception of a worm-infested corpse, apperception of a blue-black [corpse], apperception of a [corpse] full of holes, or apperception of a bloated [corpse] DN 33)? In the context of kynupassan are the nimitta-s of these apperceptions kmagua-s?And what about the visible sphere consisting of the ridges & hollows, the river ravines, the tracts of stumps & thorns, the craggy irregularities associated with the apperception of wilderness (MN 121)? Is the nimitta of the apperception of wilderness a kmagua? Is a feeling of pleasure associated with the apperception of wilderness carnal pleasure (smisa sukha)?Q: I'd rather not get entangled in the "Objective Idealism" versus "Subjective Idealism" debate, if you do not mind. When I identify your model as being subjective idealism, it does not entail radical idealismA: Subjective idealism isnt applicable either. But this is beyond the scope of the present discussion.Q: Since I do not hold that kynupassan (as the 1st satipatthana) is done whilst in JhanaA: Surely body contact can be present during the engagement in any of the four satipahna-s? And while engaging in the satipahna-s there can be concomitant sukha. What about at the pre-jhna stage of sammsati, if when engaging in kynupassan or the other three satipahna-s the five hindrances have been abandoned, but the five jhna factors arent fully present? If one has developed renunciation and the hindrances have been abandoned is this concomitant pleasure still smisa sukha?Q: There is nothing in MN 10 to suggest that during kynupassan npnapabba there is niramisa piti or niramisa sukha.A: There is nothing to suggest that there is smisa pti or sukha either. Its my understanding of MN 118 as well as the Paisambhidmagga npnassatikath that one doesnt necessarily need to enter jhna in order to practice vedannupassan. For example, with regard to sukhapaisaved the npnassatikath states:Pleasure (sukha): there are two kinds of pleasure: bodily pleasure and mental pleasure.What is bodily pleasure?Any bodily well-being, bodily pleasure, well-being and pleasure born of body contact, welcome satisfactory feeling born of body contact, is bodily pleasure.And so if one is practicing sukhapaisaved vedannupassan and has abandoned the five hindrances but has not entered jhna, why would the presence of pti and sukha necessarily be smisa pti and sukha?Q: why should the presence of samisa piti, samisa sukha in kynupassan be relevant or objectionable?A: Well, as we have already seen, according to SN 47.6 one is instructed to not wander into the range of the kmagua-s (and by extension smisa sukha), but to instead remain in the proper range of the four satipahna-s:Q: I am of the view that apperception of wilderness is nothing more than the 1st satipatthana.... So, the absence of niramisa piti and niramisa sukha here will not conflict with the presence of samisa pitisukha in this sanna.A: If smisa sukha is present is it accurate or advisable to suggest that the practitioners mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of wilderness (araasaya citta pakkhandati pasdati santihati adhimuccati)? Especially in light of the above injunction from SN 47.6, and also MN 66 which informs us that any sukha and somanassa that arises dependent upon the kmagua-s is not to be cultivated or developed, rather it is to be feared:Now, any pleasure & happiness that arises dependent on these five strings of sensuality is called sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is not to be cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to be feared.And also SN 35.115:Now, there are forms cognizable via the eye agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. If a monk does not relish them, welcome them, or remain fastened to them, he is said to be a monk freed from forms cognizable by the eye. He has not gone over to Mara's camp; he has not come under Mara's power. The Evil One cannot do with him as he wills.Im wondering why you find in necessary to maintain that all visible forms, sounds, odors, flavors, and tactual objects are kmagua-s? Given that SN 3.12 tells us that:Those same forms... sounds... odors... flavors... tactual objects that are agreeable to one person, great king, are disagreeable to another.Is there something intrinsic to all visible forms, sounds, odors, flavors, and tactual objects which binds the mind? In your view, what is it about all visible forms, sounds, odors, flavors, and tactual objects that is agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing and therefore requires all of them to be kmagua-s?Q: Surely body contact can be present during the engagement in any of the four satipahna-s? And while engaging in the satipahna-s there can be concomitant sukha. What about at the pre-jhna stage of sammsati, if when engaging in kynupassan or the other three satipahna-s the five hindrances have been abandoned, but the five jhna factors arent fully present? If one has developed renunciation and the hindrances have been abandoned is this concomitant pleasure still smisa sukha?A: Absolutely! I agree with almost everything you suggest here. But I have to be really cautious about inferring that the sukha in upacara samadhi (hope you'll forgive the commentarial shortform) is niramisa sukha. Perhaps both niramisa and samisa sukha are present on the cusp of Jhana. But I hesitate to promote this, lest I be accused of the poly-citta heresy. Frankly, nothing will please me more to believe that niramisa sukha can be present in upacara samadhi. But I have to bear in mind that the allowance in MN 44 for pleasure which does not trigger raganusaya extends only to Jhana. If niramisa sukha does exist in upacara samadhi, MN 44 should extend the allowance to upacara samadhi. But it doesn't...The same reservation extends to the sukhapaisaved vedannupassan in anapanasati.Q: If smisa sukha is present is it accurate or advisable to suggest that the practitioners mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of wilderness (araasaya citta pakkhandati pasdati santihati adhimuccati)? Especially in light of the above injunction from SN 47.6, and also MN 66 which informs us that any sukha and somanassa that arises dependent upon the kmagua-s is not to be cultivated or developed, rather it is to be feared:A: This is a very good point. May I venture to explain that the Buddha's injunction was against sukhaANDsomanassa. It's the same old kayika/cetasika vedana pair at work again. If pleasure derived from the kamagunas were to be faulted, it would be quite inconsistent with SN 36.6 which clearly states Ariyans "too feel a pleasant/painful/neutral" feelings" without feeling the 2nd Dart. There is nothing wrong with the kamagunas or the pleasure per se; the problem is kamacchanda - AKA the intention for passion from AN 6.63. When the 2nd Dart arises, that's when the blame game begins.May I trouble you for a favour? Is the "finds satisfaction" ( pasidati) mentioned in arannasanna above the same "satisfaction" (pasada?) experienced by the Buddha in the 3 satipatthanas of MN 137? I'm lazy and a very, very slow Pali reader.Q: Im wondering why you find in necessary to maintain that all visible forms, sounds, odors, flavors, and tactual objects are kmagua-s? Given that SN 3.12 tells us that:Those same forms... sounds... odors... flavors... tactual objects that are agreeable to one person, great king, are disagreeable to another.Is there something intrinsic to all visible forms, sounds, odors, flavors, and tactual objects which binds the mind? In your view, what is it about all visible forms, sounds, odors, flavors, and tactual objects that is agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing and therefore requires all of them to be kmagua-s?A: I think the answer is to be found in SN SN 35.115 which you cited.Now, there are forms cognizable via the eye agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing.If a monk does not relish them, welcome them, or remain fastened to them, he is said to be a monk freed from forms cognizable by the eye. He has not gone over to Mara's camp; he has not come under Mara's power. The Evil One cannot do with him as he wills."I can't help but notice that both conditional statements "If he relishes..." and "If he doesn't relish..." are appended to a standard kamaguna stock formula.As I've said before, I am of the view that kamagunas are affectively neutral. There is nothing inherent or intrinsic in a kamaguna that makes it attractive, repulsive or neither. The movement of the mind to establish contact does not depend on any quality inherent in form, sound, smell, taste, tactility or dhamma. That movement is very simply due solely to the intention for passion from AN 6.63.Q: Frankly, nothing will please me more to believe that niramisa sukha can be present in upacara samadhi. But I have to bear in mind that the allowance in MN 44 for pleasure which does not trigger raganusaya extends only to Jhana. If niramisa sukha does exist in upacara samadhi, MN 44 should extend the allowance to upacara samadhi. But it doesn't...A: It seems that the DN 22/MN 10 commentaries which we looked at make for this allowance.Q: If pleasure derived from the kamagunas were to be faulted, it would be quite inconsistent with SN 36.6 which clearly states Ariyans "too feel a pleasant/painful/neutral" feelings" without feeling the 2nd Dart. There is nothing wrong with the kamagunas or the pleasure per se; the problem is kamacchanda - AKA the intention for passion from AN 6.63. When the 2nd Dart arises, that's when the blame game begins.A: MN 66 tells us that any sukha and somanassa that arises dependent upon the kmagua-s is a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an ignoble pleasure to be feared:Now, any pleasure & happiness that arises dependent on these five strings of sensuality is called sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is not to be cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to be feared.Seems pretty clear to me. Of course we disagree on what kmagua means, as well as kyika and cetasika, etc.Q: Is the "finds satisfaction" ( pasidati) mentioned in arannasanna above the same "satisfaction" (pasada?) experienced by the Buddha in the 3 satipatthanas of MN 137?A: MN 137 uses the terms anattamana (not satisfied) and attamana (satisfied).Q: As I've said before, I am of the view that kamagunas are affectively neutral.A: And as Ive said before, Im of the view that sense objects are neutral, but kmagua-s are any sense objects which one considers to be agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. The inner felt-sense of nirmisa ptisukha which arises in jhna is of a completely different kind. For one thing it doesnt arise in dependence upon external sensory impingement.Q: So, it should be apparent that how our differences on the little zeroth premises underlying our understanding of the Suttas can lead to such wildly divergent models of Jhana.A: Our models may not be that widely divergent. For example, I can interpret cognition in jhna in terms of manovia and thus avoid the sahajta citta-s issue. But I wouldn't go as far as to agree that Ajahn Brahm's demarcation for what qualifies as jhna is the only correct jhna.Q: And I seriously doubt if our short little engagement over the last 2 weeks is going to make the debate go away.A: Indeed. It's a pretty old debate. It can be found in the Abhidharmakoabhsya, and as you know, was at some point included in the Kathvatthu.

END OF MAIN DISCUSSION

Q (nugu): Lets start with the first word, rpasaa.On which sense base does it depend on, from which sense base does it originate?A: In the suttas such as DN22 it lists 6 types of saa: Rpasa, Saddasa, Gandhasa, Rasasa, Phohabbasa, Dhammasa.Q: Why didn't the Buddha use Dhammasa then to avoid any other implication of the word?A: Because we have suttas such as MN 102 to furnish the context of rpasa. Because using "dhammasa" in the Arupa transition formula is totally inappropriate. The only 'place' where the perception of dhamma-s is completely transcended is Nirodha sammapatti. "Infinite Space" (with the iti clitic) is a dhamma...-What MN 102 suggests in its usage of rpasa and arpasa is that these terms are NOT functioning as a compound of 2 nouns, where rpa/arpa dhammas are the patient of sa, but as a compound of an adjective (denoted by the stems rpa/arpa) and noun (sa). It does not mean "perception of immaterial things" but "immaterial perception".If one is to insist that the cognition of sense objects/ km persists in a Jhana, then all of the Jhana's "vivicceva kamehi" formula, plus suttas such as AN 10.72 (Thorns Sutta), will have to be rewritten. Alternatively, wherever km appears in the Canon, they will have to be interpreted as sensual desire, instead of sense objects. I wonder what the First Sermon will look like thereafter...As for your point #3, standard Buddhist cosmology distinguishes the kmaloka from the rupaloka by the absence of the km in the latter. Which sutta actually provides an episode where a Brahma used eyes and ears to phusati visual data and sounds? It might be the AN episode concerning the return of Hatthaka Alavaka, but as I recall that sutta, the "gross rupa" that 'he' took was only after the Buddha suggested it. Even then, there is no indication in that sutta to suggest that that Brahma did not communicate like Brahma Sahampati in the Invitation suttas, ie read the Buddha's mind.PS - if you're thinking of MN 49, there's a problem reading that sutta literally, instead of being a metaphor...Q (nugu): It would be misleading on Buddha's part to useperception based on visible formto designate perception of object coming from the mind only.A: You've not proven that "rpa" in "rpasaa" means "cakkhuvieya rpa", so how can you read the Buddha as intending "perception based on visible form"? You still have not offered any rejoinder to how MN 102 furnishes the context in which rpasaa and arpasaa are to be understood.Geoff: Kama refers to those sense objects, from the five senses,that are enticing. The breath and one's own body is not.To give up craving for sense objects is to give up the craving to see, to hear etc as well. This leads very well to internalising one's focus away from the 5 sense bases. But of course, the mind sense is intact- hence the action of the hindrances and the upakilesas (upakilesa sutta) remain. When even these are overcome we are heading into deep samadhi territory. The journey is well explained inpositiveterms in the anapanasati sutta (ie in reference to the changes of the breath, the arising of niramisa piti sukha and other changes to the mind). The upakilesa sutta mentions the light in some detail. That's how I see it, based on the suttas cross referenced with personal experience.Q Syl, A daverupaQ: It's the same old "present tense" problem. What is indicated by the "sees" is given by the standard vipassana proxy "samanupassati"; it does not mean eye-sight.A: The Sutta I mentioned, however, did not say one sees with the eye. "Iseewhat you're saying"