Interview
Peter Tomaž Dobrila November 3, 2014
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The interview was conducted by Dirk Dobiéy on November 3rd, 2014 via Video
Conference between Maribor, Slovenia and Dresden, Germany .
This text is licensed under Creative Commons BY-NC-SA 4.0
(creativecommons.org).
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About
Peter Tomaž Dobrila is an electronic and IT engineer and a
musician who focuses on the creative use of the new technologies.
In 1996 he co-founded the Multimedia Centre KIBLA, Maribor and
was its head. He is a fellow of the European Academy for Digital
Media (EADIM). One of his most important projects since 2006 has
been preparing the winning candidacy for the European Capital of
Culture 2012 for Maribor. Since June 2009, he has been working in
the Ministry of Culture of the Republic of Slovenia, having been
appointed as General Director of the Directorate for Arts and after
he was a member of the Minister's office. From 2011 to 2013 he was
adviser to the director of the MARIBOR 2012 – European Capital of
Culture Public Institute. In 2011 he co-curated the Contemporary
Art from Slovenia exhibition in the European Central Bank in
Frankfurt, Germany. In 2012 he was Commissioner for the
presentation of Slovenia at the 13th International Architecture
Exhibition – La Biennale di Venezia, Italy. Since 2014 he's president
of the CODE BLUE Association becoming autonomous artists. In
2015 he's employed at the Ministry of Culture of the Republic in
Slovenia in the Minister's office as adviser to the minister.
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Interview
Age of Artists: What is your artistic practice?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: My artistic practice varies but basically it is
music. Besides being a musician I am also an IT engineer. When I
do, let’s say, interactive multimedia or intermedia installations
there is always sounds that takes quite a big part besides the visual
aspect. I did several music projects since the late eighties of the
twentieth century, being a part of the Slovenian avant-garde
movement. At that time I also then somehow slipped into the
contemporaneity doing micro tonal music or intermedia
installation.
Age of Artists: How many instruments do you play?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: I play a lot of instruments. As I am a
classically trained guitarist, I play plucked instruments with strings
like mandolin, banjo, the Indian instruments sitar or the sarod,
Chinese instruments guqin, guzheng, ruan, pipa, yueqin, liuqin,
qinqin, Vietnamese one-string zither Đàn bầu, Cambodian chest-
resonated stick zither kse diev, Estonian zither kanel, Javanese
siter, Laos and Thai phin, Turkish oud, tambur, saz or bağlama,
Egiptian lyra, Colombian tiple, Portuguese guitar… so all these
various guitars… Then I play electronic instruments like theremin
and crackle-box, invented by my friend Michel Waisvisz, who sadly
passed away some years ago. I play also a little bit of piano and
violin and its ancestor from Egypt called rababa, and sometimes I
like sound of flutes and ocarinas...
Age of Artists: You did not mention the pictures, for instance in
your water project.
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Peter Tomaž Dobrila: Yes, you mean these photos of my
participation in the release of the earth water catalogue project
conceived by Ulay (http://www.earthwatercatalogue.net). This
project comprises several projects that are debating water,
focusing on drinking or sweet water (and not on sea or salted
water), which should last in the public domain and not being
privatized. This is the basic aim of the engagement of several
artists in this artistic project. I did one performance on the
waterfall of the confluence of the river Ganges in India, titled
Water-Steel. I'm preparing some new stuff as well.
Age of Artists: What made you become and continue as an artist?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: I somehow just started to work more and
more, not only in the production of art, but also in the conc eption
of the artistic way. I have stepped, as mentioned in the middle of
the eighties, into the Slovenian avant-garde movement with my
musical and performance works and as a writer and editor at the
Student's newspaper KATEDRA. In that era student's newspaper
were most important in constitution of an independent artistic and
cultural scene in Yugoslavia. You might know several groups like
Laibach, who later constituted Neue Slowenische Kunst with
Sisters Scipion Nasice Theatre Group and IRWIN visual artists
group. Of course there were more artists and other cultural
activists, who were contemporary at that point. Also I participated
in the first independent record label in Yugoslavia. You probably
don't know Mario Marzidovšek, who started it under the
Marzidovšek Minimal Laboratorium. There my first two recordings
were released. We were still doing cassettes, you know the small
things, probably almost not used anymore, which were later also
used in the early computer as memory devices. His production was
impressive comprising several hundred recordings including many
international authors. I think it was one of the biggest independent
label in the world. We played many concerts together and did
some tours, so it struck me deeply his tragic death couple of years
ago. He was one of the most creative and enthusiastic guys I met,
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also doing his own music, performances, fanzines, mail-art, design
and paintings. To that point, I have made quite a lot of
performances and we have met several artistic groups in a
multimedia center joined by photographers, painters, and
designers all together. The split of Yugoslavia cruelly and clearly
divided us, because at that point we were completely passive for a
couple of years. It was impossible to work on anything as all the
connections were cut and lost. At that point, I also finished my
computer studies, where I graduated as an electronics and
computer engineer. Then there was also the era of the techno
movement in the late eighties and early nineties. Of course, it was
also the rise of the Internet, and of all these new possibilities that
artistic practices or outcomes could use, such as promotion,
distribution and so on. I participated in different initiatives during
my student’s era, and then founded the student radio MARŠ, which
was the first big thing in Slovenia with the new state situation.
After a couple of years, I established the Multimedia Center KIBLA,
which was the first multimedia center in Europe and is still the
biggest in Slovenia or Ex-Yugoslavia, now euphemistically defined
as Western Balkans, and Eastern Europe. It is still going on with
some productions, and of course supports my artistic views.
Age of Artists: So Kibla is a meeting place for artists to develop
their practices independently and jointly?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: Yes, this is one activity, but it is also a
production platform to encourage the artists in doing what they
want to do, so also to support them with projects, to support them
with infrastructure, to support them with know-how, or with
editing, designing, printings and publishing catalogues, DVDs, CDs
etc. They can also benefit from the European networks,
connections and projects. It is somehow a meeting place for
anybody who wants to be there and of course a presentation place
with several programs, from education programs to culture and
also entrepreneurship. KIBLA is a production space with many
facilities and know-how. Besides being a technological platform
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only it is also a creative environment, where human interaction and
support from the whole team is of most importance. We are
holding weekly meetings for start-ups in Maribor with new idea
generating, debating... Then of course it is a big artistic space with
regular peer projections, concerts, performances, theaters and of
course visual art shows. It's a co-working space with the longest
history, established in 1996, and lab as in fact we started – KIBLA is
an abbreviation of KIBer LAb in Greek language and it has also
other meanings – a box, a computer, a police van, Gods house...
instead of using English word with no other connotations.
Age of Artists: I would like to rewind a little bit – to use you tape
reference. Rewind to the very beginning. You said you started early
with art. Do you have any idea why?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: It might be because I just had to somehow
balance my ideas and creativity. Around ten years old, you are
trying to find yourself through different areas of activities from
sport to scout, to other social activities... I started to play classical
guitar when I was a kid and that’s how I developed. With my
classical guitar, I have made my first solo concert in primary school
and then it just went on to high school group, into multimedia, and
then into all other activities… People say “I have this in myself it is
in my blood, in my ancestors, my parents”, because I think in
European families we have artistry in our genes. It was not
consciously. It was just my wish and my priority when I was a little
kid.
Age of Artists: You relate a lot to your environment. How important
and why was this environment and the artistic community? How
much did the environment and the artistic community influence
what you did and what you still do?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: Really important and also very necessary is to
establish a common platform or common identities. Indeed, there
is always the thing that the situation you are in, that you’re living,
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that you’re surviving somehow builds you, somehow obstructs you,
and somehow shapes you in a way you really want to respond to. In
that point of view, I think that artists have this obligation or this
personal, might be even inner – although I don't want to sound
esoteric as I'm not – call to respond to some contemporary society,
and to be critical in all variations of this word. They also need to
evolve some of their perspectives, some of their issues and their
possibilities of what could happen on some metaphysical level. The
artistic touch is somehow metaphysical. It can’t be explained with
the scientific tools or scientific machines or scientific environment.
It is something that is above, but not in the sense of higher or
more – I don't want to sound mystical as I'm not – but beyond
science and physical knowledge. This is one explanation, why
scientists and artists are collaborating through the history and
most successful periods were those in which they shared ideas and
searched for common ways.
Let me go back a bit to illustrate my points. There was also the
punk influence end of the seventies and eighties, while in Europe
all these firms were experiencing a big crisis in the industrial
segment of the European economy, with a lot of strikes going on
and so on… Then in the eighties, it was the rise of the new wave.
This new wave in Yugoslavia was really much shaped by the avant-
garde movement, because I think this is one of the qualities or the
specialties of the socialist system that we had in the twenties and
the thirties with the so-called historical avant-garde, also in
Slovenia. Like Bauhaus in Germany or the Constructivist movement
in Russia. Then we had in the eighties also what we call neo-avant-
garde and then retrograde movements, we were all trying at that
point somehow to experiment with the environment, with the
society we were part of. These experiments went into our artistic
activities, and also as we were quite a strong community, visiting
each other, supporting each other, working together. By mixing, of
course we have a common influence of that era, of that period. I
would say cultural pattern. It was probably as much environmental
as it was mutually supported by our artistic view. The reality was
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quite hard at that time and we were expected, as you can see also
in some of that movies from that era, music and so on, especially
this avant-garde, to incorporate the echo of some industrial past
and to somehow predict the post-industrial informatics age. We
were all trying to play with the tools that we had. Some were like
electronic instruments, often manually manufactured, because we
couldn’t afford actually to buy synthesizer in the shops. So we
were also somehow finding and starting our own do-it-yourself
(DIY) way. Everybody who was part of a group or any collective was
quite strongly doing his or her things, trying to find new ways of
expression, new ways of visualization, new ways for electronics,
how to put different instruments, different generators, and so on.
So playing with possibilities, from instruments building to
composing and making music and visuals, playing, singing,
dancing, and doing fashion...
Age of Artists: If I have to summarize what you said, then it sounds
like what shaped your practice is yourself, your artistic practice,
the environment, and then of course the society you are living in.
You also make reference to the times, the eighties, the seventies
and so on… Now, if you look at that, are they any elements of your
attitude, which stayed more or less the same?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: Yes, sure! It is in the way of approaching time
to the production of things, which I think force somehow the
artistic substance. I think that most of the contemporary
productions or artistic productions are missing “the experiment”.
Or at least lacking it. Lots of things became too predictable,
everything must be planned.. . I think that the first point in the
artistic practice should still be experiments. I am still
experimenting. I am trying to find new ways, new possibilities, new
sounds, new visuals, new technological concepts, and new aspects
of this and that with a complete awareness over the society I am
living in. So living somehow defragments and decomposes society.
I am still allocating the “DIY” principle. That’s why I am quite
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supportive of the artistic practices that are using the open source
or the open code in gaining their effects, either on the visual or on
the musical level. I think that there was always a way or a
perspective that other artists feel. When you have some painting or
drawing, book or poem, you always have DIY. Not like in the so -
called computer interactive art, where you have on one side artists
and on the other side you have programmers or engineers, and on
a third side you have some others, like techno geeks, who are
combining then all these things onto a common platform. So still
advocating, and of course not neglecting the other ways, but it is
the thing that I like. What I like also is the openness of the artistic
approach, which means that it can be open or involve several
effects or different ideas in the process of the making. Once it’s
done, it just responses to this artistic statement that it has.
Therefore I also try to support and achieve some artworks that I
was doing and I am still doing, being aware of this group level of
things. I brought this experiment from my early start to today.
The problem of the contemporary society, or political system, or
also the European society, is that the economical pragmatism
somehow suffocated all other parts of the human activities. So the
pragmatism suffocated experiment, because of the sum goals and
the sum results. We are speaking not in quality measures but in
quantity measures. So by debating artworks we always say “What is
your marketing? What is your promotion? What is your PR? How
many audiences do you have? How much income you make? What
is your next activity?” So nobody is asking you “Was this good
artwork or a bad artwork or is it artwork at all and what is it?” In
that way, we are now fighting on this level, trying to achieve these
economic criteria or quantities, and not having in mind the really
artistic quality and allowance or the possibi lity to experiment, not
even thinking of any other results of outcomes and incomes. Art
should also fight to get back, because all of these have been
applications when we are submitting our projects. We have to
respond to all these criteria. I also proposed on one debate that if
we are then for a multidimensional and multifunctional society
with all fields of activity, so economical, artistic, technical; all
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equally involved, we should demand from the top managers and
from the politicians to judge their views, their attitudes, their
business plans, their marketing strategies artistically. To see if it
has any cultural perspective and if it is culturally accepted. I am
missing the days where people in industry were supporting art and
not asking for the results. This setting should be propagated as
well as experiment as an artistic way of doing things.
Age of Artist: There were two things I would like to briefly follow
up on. You talked about experiment and then used the example of
the open source movement. Is experiment for you a metaphor for
freedom?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: Yes, it is. In a way. It is free in the way of
“allowed of doing things” but also once you are doing art, you can’t
be free in relation to the tools that you are having, because you are
somehow limited with them or by using computer, visual art tools
or musical instruments or whatever. By experimenting, you can
learn and you can get more out of them, as you are trying to find
some ways that are not presented in the first trial, but you have to
find the ways by yourself. Maybe they are the other side of the
sounds, of the visions… You can maybe play with some interface,
some software to achieve these goals and then to somehow
synthesize and combine all this into a common place. I think
experiment could be somehow a synonym for freedom. Freedom
could be just “form without a cause” or “form without the content”,
but experiment is a “form with the content”, because it demands
some attitudes or views of the environment. I think freedom is
maybe a too loose expression to somehow grasp the excitement of
experiment. Experiment has its aim. Freedom is somehow aimless
in a way. So with experiment you can also discover some new parts
in space.
Age of Artists: You talked about measures beyond revenue such as
cultural relevance. It is a bit contradictory to us as you say that we
should invest without any regard to the outcome but at the same
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time you are competing with this world where everything is
measured. How would you describe the cultural value of something
that is not measurable? Do you have any ideas or recommendations
on how this measurement would take place?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: We have to somehow confess that we are not
just like outsiders or outlaws doing whatever comes to our minds
or into our hands, and we are still part of the system whatever it is
or whatever we are or whoever we are. I just think that at some
stage, the art should be left more autonomous. I just mean in a
simple way that we should interfere with the big systems and try
to get into their business plans with cultural values, cultural issues,
and artistic practices. We are also using the expression of social
responsibilities, social awareness. There should be also the cultural
responsibility and artistic awareness. This means that these
companies should support the cultural institutions, or there should
be always a part of the institutions’ budget allocated to support
art. As we know that the economic institutions are more or less
buildings of considerable size. They could also host more often
artistic projects, not only exhibitions but also concerts and so on.
What happened with post-modernism in the eighties, even though
it was somehow starting earlier, is that there was a big amount of
cultural institutions that arose with big concrete buildings, which
were a bit out of the usual society area, a bit like the religious
temples. They were specially made for culture and where people
should go for their rituals. With this kind of alienation of culture
spaces, also came somehow alienation of the cultural activity or of
artistic practices to the contemporary society. In consequence
managers are somehow educated and raised in different ways.
They don’t know anything about culture or about social
constellations, or anything about quite obligatory or compulsory
social flows through different systems. We are a society as a
whole, and every system should support each other! Something
that artists can do, something that sportsmen can do, something
that educators can do, something that of course businessmen can
do, and everything should be articulated to get the breath of life.
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That’s why I think that some should just be taught to support art
and not asking what it’ll bring, maybe just by trying to organize art
events, either regularly or temporary, or only on some occasions.
Also show their awareness, their profile and their interests into
something else than purely money, purely business. In this post-
financial society, the question on how to raise society could be
discussed and debated. Societies have to be brought back to
balance.
Age of Artists: At the very beginning, we talked about the non -
rational and non-quantifiable, and now we talked about non-
measurable. Let’s talk a little bit about this idea of art and
emotions. If you look at your art practice or art in general, what
would you consider the emotional elements or important elements,
when it comes to the non-rational side?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: In my point of view the emotional part of art
is when you are really executing some artwork. When you are
working on it, or when you perform it, because the rational part to
it is somehow the artistic concept and also the installation of an
artwork (the installation of the space, what equipment do we need,
how it will look like and so on). In musical terms, it is the
composition. The composition of members, the orchestra, so why
you are having such a band, why are you using this and that... This
is the rational part and anything else I think is the emotional and
non-rational part of the artistic process. When the work actually
starts, it has a lot of emotional elements in that process, because it
has also a lot of experiments. Regarding all this different steps and
evolution of the artwork, you decide which one to keep and in the
end you have got the final result. This is supported by the fact that
anytime you do it live, it is different, you can’t repeat it. So I think
this is non-rational, even though you would like to play according
to the notes. The notes are only some kind of written symbols t hat
are representing sounds, not presenting the sound wave, the call,
which is the concert show, or the gallery where the exhibition is
taking place. When I am doing exhibitions, I always somehow try to
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do them according to the space where I am in and then I adapt. If I
have one project and I see the space, and it is not appropriate for
this work, I don’t say “let’s just move away and find something
else”. I try to adapt to the space, of course try to involve all the
little elements located in situ. When doing music, we have of
course the composition. We have the patterns. We have the
instruments that are used in different ways, and then we just try to
fill the space according to the scenario and due to our emotional
and non-rational response to the actual environment, to the
audience. We try to adapt to the audience coming and going, to
audience sitting or participating in the project and so on…
Age of Artists: Since you have already started, please tell me about
your working process. If I would spend a couple of days with you,
what would I see if I observe you when you work on a piece of art?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: Most of the time I am moving around with
different instruments. I am playing with different sounds just
around the space where I am, just anywhere I can be. If something
interests me, I try to repeat it with sound. I also play different
instruments and when playing with them I am getting into certain
patterns and then I try somehow to remember those patterns.
Those that I remember I think are still valuable, things that I would
eventually use on the next level. Lot of this already fades at this
first step and doesn’t get through the filter that I apply to myself.
It also depends on what the frame of reference is. In October 2014
we had the opening of one installation in the Ludwig Museum in
Budapest and I made one short composition titled “Looking
through a window on the river Danube”. So I asked myself how
something would sound if you look at that river. At that point I just
had some kind of a composition in my head and then blindly
picking up several instruments that I think would be useful in the
process to make the composition. I had the melody in my head at
that point and then it was just somehow the scenario or maybe the
“mise-en-scène”, to look through the window on the river and how
to use different tools, different instruments to underline this view
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that I think could be appropriate at least for myself but also for the
audience, for viewers as it was a visual arts show and for listeners,
who wouldn't see it. And my colleague recorded me and edited
four instruments together, each on each, and the composition was
done. So this is one way. The other is by playing instruments – I
have quite a wide selection of different instruments with strings,
and some are electronics like the theremin, and so on – I try to use
some instruments, and when I get into the sound theme that is
interesting on the musical level, then I am switching instruments,
and I try to see how it works on others. If yes, then I am trying to
evolve it, even by staying on one instrument through the
composition, or sometimes by overlaying different instruments to
make more orchestral sounds. Sometimes I make it as a member of
a band, with some other guys playing other instruments. Last years
I'm mostly involved with the audio-visual cabaret Byzantine
Cadillac. Sometimes some of us are coming with a finished
composition and the others are playing on with it. I am quite slow
because when it happens that I have this kind of interest, I am
trying to test it on different instruments and different sounds.
Then I am trying to evolve it. As I am a classical trained musician, I
am also obsessed with the classical structure of the symphony, of
the concerto and of the string quartet. Something that is not a
short composition, but something like a string quartet, which is
takes 45 minutes. This for me is the ideal of a music piece.
Age of Artists: You talked about the window on the river Danube as
a conceptual idea from where you went straight into action. This
fits very much your DIY mind-set. Is this searching and reflecting
happening for you in small iterations at this stage?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: Yes, I think that you are right. It is both,
raising questions, getting answers, making sense out of things. My
intermedia installation that was called “Iron”, was actually about
the idea of ironing and was an audio-visual installation with
audience participation. I made an interface on the computer, an
iron was transformed into the computer mouse and by c licking on
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it you can – beside ironing clothes – by selecting from the menu
make pictures, images, and draw and you can choose in the other
menu different sounds and you can make music. So by ironing you
can make images and you can make music.
Age of Artists: So you gamified ironing?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: Yes! This is a consequence of my
experiments. I was always told that ironing is not for men, and that
it is for housewives and wives. On the other hand, I have been told
during my life that technology is not for women, because they are
housewives, so cooking and so on. So somehow I feminized the
technology by using the computers for this house tasks like
ironing. Each of the housewives should learn how to use computers
and interfaces. I masculinized the use of ironing for men. As they
use the computer they should not only look into their notebook but
also do something necessary for the family and iron. Going further
the installation has the possibility for connecting with other
devices. You can have this ironing computer in your home and do it
for yourself, or it can be connected via a server. I had this server
installation realized with a band so you could have four ironers and
each of them is scanning their own music and their own picture.
Then all together are joined into the same projection. An iron
concerto! Connected via Internet, it could be like a social activity,
because you can do it online. Ironing is a bit boring so you can go
online, and exchange music and images with other people
connected, you can also overlap it, doing composition together
and so on. This is somehow what I was trying to experiment by
knowing the technology, by knowing how it works. We did many
performances, demonstrations and concerts around the world,
Prague, Brussels, Helsinki, Ningo in China, New Delhi in India...
Age of Artists: In that case, I suppose the concept phase is much
larger in contrast to the musical composition that you described
before. In any case I would like to understand as to whether the
concept phase is previous to realization or iterative along with your
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experimentation approach. How much of the concept is explored
while “you walk” as we say?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: To my point of view, the concept is always
integrated in the artwork and always of a very big importance but
it is not the only thing that is important. Here I have, let’s say,
some issues with contemporary art because there is very often
only a concept and nothing else. I am still old fashioned artists in
that regard, I would say. A concept should be really a vital part and
integrated part of the artwork, but there should be also artwork, a
product that is really artistic or that is metaphysical and that
stands beside or above anything else.
At the beginning of the twenties (1920’s) we know of some debate
between two guys, who I think quite strongly influenced art in the
twentieth century. One was Marcel Duchamp with his conceptual
approach, and the other was Clement Greenberg with his
modernistic approach. Clement Greenberg was advocating, “A rt is
artwork”. Marcel Duchamp’s vision was “Art is made by artists”. I
think the truth is somewhere in the middle. And elsewhere. I think
the good artwork, at least a complete artwork, should have a
strong concept. It could also somehow be the document or the
image of anything, but it should be the mirror of something. I think
today we are more and more aware that attitudes of some artists
were important in history. It’s not really about the painting or the
music, but also about individual achievement: To be different, to
change an orchestra, to change the use of colors, to add new
material, to bring perspectives into paintings, to bring new
instruments, to bring electronics into the mix, to make different
music or to make abstract paintings. I think this is important
notice: The concept and content are important in artworks. In this
era, what is very strong here in Slovenia, but might be also in other
regions, is that we have more and more so-called “discursive art”,
which means that people are speaking about art, talking and
discussing, not making it. Maybe this is needed, but I am quite
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alert or trying to alarm everybody that we speak too much and that
we don’t do anything. Let’s combine concepts and work!
Age of Artists: Two words came to my mind: concept and content.
Is this similar to meaning and material? Purpose and product, to
use business-related terms?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: When you mentioning “content” and
“concept”, I think there is a third part and that is “context”, which is
the environment, the society, us in the most substantial, variable
and abstract sense. So there are always things that depend on the
context. You mentioned the business world and the product. There
is of course awareness and emotion some products create but by
knowing the cu ltural level of that target group or, you’ll be also
able to sell better products, because you will know more about
how to handle the audience, they will know more how to use them,
they will get more out of them. One of the most important changes
in history from my point of view: the information society and the
internet has been automatized and segmented. What is now
fragmented should be more connected. Today I think it is really
disconnecting the real society on that level, but I think that we
should somehow reconnect the society by using now the
information and the equipment we have. We have now good
products, so we can be good customers. If we had excellent
products, we could be excellent customers and so on. I think
business people should therefore invest in the society as a whole,
because by educating and investing in society, they will also be
able to growing their customer base for their products.
Consumerism is the most dangerous behavior we have, it seems
very individual, when targeted from the companies, but it's really
utterly social as groups of population all want to have same
products tailored for you only and specially. Individualism is a
hoax. When speaking about individualism, I always remember
Monty Python's movie Live of Brian, when masses of believers
come to Brian and he's telling them, "You're all individuals" and the
masses reply, "Yes, we're all individuals" and Brian continues,
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"You're all different" and the masses reply, "Yes, we're all different”,
when a distant voice in the crowd is heard, "No, I'm not.” This tells
me much.
A cultural idiom, which is very important but very often forgotten,
is something like literacy. We talk now about digital literacy. We
can of course agree that this is a cultural idiom. It represents
cultural characteristics, because we learn to read and write,
through different artistic and cultural achievements. First, with
kids’ books which are illustrated and have only some sentences.
We see the audio-visual information, and then we go through other
and bigger books, to our professional reading and so on. We grow
into a much more complex person. Of course, a lot of people grow
up and forget about the cultural substance on how they actually
learned to read through culture and art, so through reading. On the
other hand, it becomes a social characteristic and an economical
characteristic, because through the level of literacy we measure
the development of the society and the economical capacity of the
society. So it means that more people are literate, the more
products you can sell to them. It means that you have to raise the
cultural level of the society to get to your intended result. This is
now the point of the human evolution that we should really
observe, because in the past twenty years, we were just selling the
European industries and technologies to the so-called
“underdeveloped” markets or “underdeveloped” states, and we
moved there or built factories, in Africa and Asia for example, to
produce at lower costs and now as a consequence we have the
problem of unemployment in Europe. A lot of states now are
thinking that it is better to have a bit of production with a slightly
higher price to maintain the social integrity of our society instead
of just selling products. In a complex world it is much more valued,
to take “concept”, “content” and “context” into account than focus
on just one thing. Being focused on something is fine, but you
should be focused with awareness of everything. Otherwise you
would be like an elephant in a porcelain shop.
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Age of Artists: I think there is a very important point in what you
just said and I would like to confirm that with my own words. If you
say that our early education stems from culture and we now see
ourselves in a society where we need to integrate “context”,
“concept” and “content” even more than before; does that mean
that we need to educate ourselves further on artistic practices in
order to be able to reach that next level as a society?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: Culture generates evolution. Culture is a
generator of the Evolution was also my motto when I was working
for Maribor as the European capital of culture 2012. People that
come into certain positions in business or in big multinationals are
forgetting why they came into that position. They got their
because of culture in a way. They should be highly educated. They
should know a lot, and of course in my point of view, they should
have some kind of a social impact. I am always thinking that it is a
privilege to be a leader of an institution. I think too many times
this is forgotten. We should just think that if we are here it is
thanks to culture, thanks to the fact that we are literate, that we
can communicate among ourselves, thanks to the fact we have
cultural values such as the fact that we are able to cohabitate with
each other, at least in some territories. Then of course, other
cultural values form the family, the social systems that surround
us, also offices and factories. We should remember that over the
course of our life. When we have the opportunity to be in charge of
a big system, we should also invest in culture, invest in education,
invest in all these social activities without questioning them,
without trying to quantify their outcomes, but simply believe in the
quality that they will bring. If we believe this is all solved by having
art academies we will fail. This is the most important point because
now all these connections are cut between the different social and
cultural subsystems, between economy, art, and so on. Like you
mentioned, I would completely pursue this idea that we should
work on ourselves and develop culturally further to get to a better
society.
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Age of Artists: Another Renaissance?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: It could be because many in society got the
basic knowledge about technology, we should get into courses and
trainings about culture, about art, about civilization in other parts
of the world. We don’t know a lot about what is going on in Africa,
what is going on in Asia, apart from catastrophes and wars. There
is a lot of the garbage that this contemporary technology
produces. Every two years we change the smartphone, the
computer, because it breaks. It is not solid and can just last for a
couple of years. I think we should educate ourselves and educate
our society once we have the possibility. We should educate our
neighbors with discussions, formal or informal or non-formal
processes.
Age of Artists: I would like to get back briefly to your work process,
because I think we have talked about the idea of the musical piece
and then how you iterate it. Let’s talk about the next step and
particularly towards performance as you also mentioned that
performance is not the same like a recording or listening to a
recording over and over.
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: In my production work, it is the same process
as I’m trying to follow myself, my principles, because until now
they have proven to be successful. When composing a musical
theme is done, I am trying somehow to build, to structure the
wider composition around it. Sometimes I come sooner or quicker
to the end, so it means after a couple of minutes I decide “this is it”
and I finish by documenting it. Then I recorded it. But it also
depends on the mood that I have. Sometimes I try with some on
the theremin, or I play bass, sometimes I do some kind of a string
melody and so on. Then I include several people that are doing
these engineering types of things, and then we are trying to layer
all these different instruments into a common composition. Most
of the time I try to play different instruments by myself, but when
there are some instruments that I don’t play or that I don’t want to
Age of Artists / Interview with Peter Tomaž Dobrila
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play, then I call friends to play them. It is quite a cinematic
process, because after having some snippets, some parts of the
composition, I am getting to the montage phase, to organize them
into the composition. Also on another level, I have this idea, like
mentioned before, of whether a composition will be short or more
complex like twenty, thirty, forty minutes. The latter brings all the
necessity, which such a long “estocade” has. It includes some basic
themes, basic melodies, with some different harmonies,
alternations, some kind of red thread, and some kind of MIDI play
that can be used to jump to another model. Sometimes I do the
text or I invite some singers or some poets to sing, or to tell their
text on the top of my music, or we play together, or they sing it
without anything. Then I am layering them with different
instruments, different music into the common composition. I send
it to them and they tell me if they are ok with it. It is a process of
at least couple of months to one year. Then I am deciding if I am
happy and satisfied with the result, or the song that is done, and
with the whole composition. This is not the case with a short
composition, but with more complex works I need couple of
months to be satisfied with all the little things.
Age of Artists: When you completed the work and recorded it,
would you then call your work complete?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: On some level, yes. But I always have this
other exit: the concerts, the performances, the installations. Those
are always something different than a recording. But regarding
completeness, yes.
Age of Artists: So you do perform your music also alive?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: Yes, I do.
Age of Artists: In all your process steps, you did not mention your
audience at all. When does the audience come in?
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Peter Tomaž Dobrila: Whenever! I also have my audience in my
workshops or before the whole set up is done. Because we are
quite used to different stages, from rock and roll stages to the
galleries, to the small stages. So we have these different
experiments to let people personally in, or incorporate them to get
some experience and then to change. Also on some occasions
where we had little experience we locked the room, didn’t let
anyone out, and then we just made big noise (laughs).
Age of Artists: Is this called a feedback loop (laughs)?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: Sometimes. I also use other sounds. What
was quite funny is that the police came and stopped couple of
concerts, because it was too loud.
Age of Artists: What do you think that business and society can
learn from art?
Peter Tomaž Dobrila: I think we should all be learning from each
other. We should not only be talking but mainly listening to each
other and we can all, I’m sure, learn from each other. Business can
learn from art. Art can learn from business. I think now lots of
artists are business experts. Regarding businessman who don’t
know much about art – they say “I don’t care” or, “I don’t know
anything about nothing, so I don’t want to have anything to do
with it” - this fear should be overcome. It is not a problem really.
You have paintings on your wall that you like you are always
listening to music in your car, or in the street, or in a restaurant
and so on. I think that business could learn a lot from art, not only
non-rational things, but also purely rational aspects. About the
artistic system, about the artistic work and about the artistic social
role, that it got through the history of humanity. About aesthetics.
About beauty. I think business should learn about art at least this:
Artists were present during all the human history and they will be
present also in the future and they should be supported. We should
also overcome the idea that everything that is selling is good. It is
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the contrary in art; sometimes the less it sells the most potential it
has. It may be not the same, but you see the idea. As you said,
there is also the idea of the Renaissance and what happened af ter
that. Our generation has the possibility to somehow reconnect
society, to reconnect social groups or different interest groups, or
different groups of activities, and somehow to again make the
society unite in this most precious world.
In political terms we have “position” and we have “opposition”. On
the artistic level, we have “composition”. We should try to get
“composition” - “position” and “opposition” try to work together,
and to involve what’s needed for the survival of our society, from
the tiniest elements, to incorporate all little ideas and each and
every human.