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The Governments 2016 deadline for Building Information Modelling compliance is rapidlyapproaching. Building Products staged a Round Table of experts, which echoed BIM itself, being a
multi-disciplinary collaboration between manufacturer, architect, contractor, consultant and client. The
meeting saw discussion of the real world needs of the industry, and showed that many issues remain
to be resolved. We discovered that while the substantial investments are worthwhile, gaining full
benet from BIM will mean full engagement, from suppliers to FM teams easier said than done.
ChairED BY
Jmes Pke
editor, Building Products
Csey D rutlnd
Associate director, Arup AssociatesCasey is an architect who has signicant experience
of working with BIM tools on a wide range of projects,and combines this with a realistic business approach.
Steve Cookson
Technical services manager, liquid applied membranes, Sika
Steve has worked in the roong industry for 18 years, in
roles ranging from CAD technician to his current position.
He represents technical company policy at all meetings.
Fnk Welng
Head of technical, engineering and design, Mets Wood
Frank has a wealth of sector knowledge from many years
of specialisation. A structural engineer, he leads the rms
technical team, and led the way in its BIM development.
Pul Evns
Head of marketing, Celotex
Paul is responsible for the insulation manufacturers
innovation and new product programmes, as well as all
marketing communication campaigns.
Dvd Glles
Product marketing manager, automatics, Dorma
David is the senior specication sales person at the
door controls specialist manufacturer, and is also the
rms BIM Champion, as it develops its strategy.
Pete Teblcock
Director of BIM, Balfour BeattyA qualied architect, Peters responsible for implementing
BIM across Balfour Beatty Construction Services. He wasvice president (Membership) of the RIBA from 2001-2003.
Lm Bdy
Town Hall complex client programme manager,
Manchester City Council
As part of his key role on the 100m refurbishment, Liams
in charge of exploring how BIM data can benet the city.
Smon rwlnson
Head of strategic research and insight, EC Harris
As well as his role at EC Harris, Simon is a member of the
core group of the Governments BIM Task Group, and is
working on alignment of COBie and commercial data.
Pul Woddy
Author and consultant, White Frog Publishing
A former application specialist at Revit, Paul is now an
independent BIM consultant and trainer, and advises major
international design and construction companies.
Jon Wlson
Technical manager, Lakesmere
Johns the lead on BIM within Lakesmere, developing
design standards and procedures, delivering models to the
client, and analysing BIM tenders.
The Building Products Round Table
BIM: From Theory to Practice
SPONSOrS
7/27/2019 BIM Round Table
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BIM might well be the panacea for achieving these efciencies,
but there appears to be a growing gap between the cognoscenti
and the stragglers. In the 2013 National BIM Survey, only half of
those already using BIM have reached the Governments Level 2
requirement, and 22% of those surveyed who werent yet in the
club said that they didnt want to be.
What do suppliers need to do in order to full their contract with
clients and contractors, what are the new KPIs? And are we really
ready to share everything?
The Round Table looked at BIM in practice, including lessons from
real schemes, and found that not only issues remain around data
delivery from manufacturers, but theres a critical need to engage the FM
side. The potential improvements in product specication, and efciency
generally, are enormous, but it seems we are a still a long way from
achieving them all. The meeting was a key step towards that goal.
Round Table | BIM: From Theory to Practice
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The Round Table was held in the auspicious surroundings of the headquarters of our
oldest army regiment, the Honourable Artillery Company, just off Londons City Road.
The contrast between this grand old Georgian house, hidden away next to the silicon
roundabout home to many new web-based companies couldnt be more striking.
That contrast between old and new echoes the challenges being faced around BIM by
many rms in the construction industry, who have for decades found ways of designing and
operating buildings, or their components, which work for them. However those time-honoured
ways are now facing a daunting challenge from the Government, as it demands everyone
involved in delivering its projects to be fully conversant with 3D (Level 2) BIM, by 2016.
However, for the smaller or more sceptical companies out there, is the investment really
worth it in the current climate, or is it that they cant afford not to be in the game? Theopportunity was outlined by Paul Morrell, then Governments Construction Advisor, in 2011,
when he stated that public sector construction is worth around 35-40bn, but that the quid
pro quowas that the industry had to achieve a 20% saving in procurement.
IntroductionJmes Pke, edto, Buldng Poducts, nd c of te BiM round Tble
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C: Pt of te Govenments Constuc-
ton 2025 Sttegy s to buld mnufctues
compettve dvntge usng BiM, oweve
wt s tt compettve dvntge cuently
is its cost-effectiveness for rms in the supply
cn estblsed, so tey cn justfy te
nvestment? Pete, youe skng you suppl-
es to be fully convesnt wt BiM by 2014,
wee do you see te etun on nvestment?
Pete Teblcock: Weve been working with our
supply chain for the past 18 months, sharing our
vision for where wed like to go, and offering to
work very closely with them to understand the
technology, the mechanics. Government has made
its vision clear, that they are looking at projects
to be compliant with a certain set of COBie data.So were gearing up, preparing for that, and our
suppliers have a role to play, in satisfying the clients
data needs.
For us, the basic properties and attributes of
materials is probably all that we need. One of the
benets of BIM and also one of the dilemmas is
that its a fantastic digital toolset. I think thats
what a number of companies might be wrestling
with. You can provide the basic attributes of
materials, you can also provide the manufacturing
data, built in.
Question is, if that manufacturing data was
included, simply because it could be, in all projects,
for every component, youll have a pretty unwieldy
memory-hungry model to deal with, and not all
clients want that level of detail.
So its wrestling with the various needs of the
people around this table, versus the clients who are
turned off, because they dont need the data that
relates to manufacturing; what theyre looking for is
data that relates to their maintainable asset.
C:Are you having conversations with suppliers
about what the savings are likely to be to them?
PT: We are having conversations, rather than
about specic savings, in terms of workloads. For
instance we are seeing suppliers supplying us with
relevant BIM information that can dovetail into the
other models, whether its a doorset, ceiling or
services. It means the project is better integrated,
better coordinated. We see inherently therell be
less rework, less defects, less visits to site, and
efciency savings. They will be different depending
on the size and scope of the project, for our suppli-
ers, but we see that inherently its a more efcient
way of working, that will more than pay for the
investment. We see the gures you quoted earlier
[30K investment to become BIM compliant] being
exceeded by some way.
C: John, whats your attitude at Lakesmere to
return on BIM investment now is it a case of you
cant not be involved?Jon Wlson:There are many different pieces of
software out there, so we have to be quite versa-
tile and exible to be able to use them. Theres a
good collaboration of zones and things like that
we can work within. That reduces requests for
information, for example, going out to the client.
Weve been using 3D models to get collaboration
going with clients and also our suppliers, for the
last six or seven years. We see BIM as just an
extension of that, its a matter very simply of just
putting together an O&M (operation and mainte-
nance) manual.
The problem that we tend to have is understand-
ing the level of detail required by the clients. That
is a concern. Instead of drawing a prole do you
want a box, do you draw every screw? Were also
nding that there isnt a BIM document coming
through, or generally after a projects awarded a
client will say they want BIM. We are quite happy to
be exible, there are things we can do to pull it into
the software.
Generally when we are tendering for a project,
that information is not really there. So over the
past 12 months weve developed our own BIM
standard.
C: Steve, at Sika do you believe theres a
dangerous lack of clarity on data requirements?Steve Cookson: Theres not been much
clarication on what the market needs when it
comes to level of detail. Do you want screws and
outlets, or is it just the simple components and
their properties?
If theres not some clarity soon on this, there is
a danger around the 2016 deadline. We are one
of the rst manufacturers to be on the National
BIM Library, and there arent many listed in the
coming soon section of the website. From speak-
ing to other people, there is a lack of direction, its
screaming out for the supply chain to get involved,
but the lack of clarity of whats demanded of us
there doesnt seem to be any documentation
saying whats needed from manufacturers.
C: Liam, as a client, do you see that clarity
currently coming from the client side?
Lm Bdy: I think theres a complete lack of
direction at the moment. Clients need to show
more leadership, and some of the big FM compa-
nies need to join the game. Im seeing very little
proper engagement with the use of BIM for FM.
Theres nothing in the employer requirements
about BIM, but weve good historical partnership
arrangements with our partners. Its been a difcult
journey to articulate what our requirements are,
because a lot of it has been done on the hoof.
It is for clients to show leadership but I do think
the FM world do need to engage more in this. We
are surrounded by people who are brilliant with the
technology, but its about the culture, getting the
FM service providers on board. Getting them to
interact with the designers, and saying look, you
can inuence the design, is a massive task. At rst,
they didnt believe it.
Pul Woddy: Is that something thats changed
with BIM, is it not a culture thats always been
there?
LB: If you look at Latham and Egan in the 1990s,
they were great words, especially about frame-
work partnering, and there have been some goodresults. But I think we are very silo-based in our
way of working, and the recession is really biting.
We have a fantastic partner in Laing ORourke, but
they are cutting their cloth.
In terms of handovers we are trying to embrace
the Governments Soft Landings approach, and
thats a bit of a rocky road to be honest. We are
really working hard as a team, and Ive got no
criticism of the individuals at Laing ORourke, but I
think they are just spread a little too thin, which is
maybe just a reection of the market.
The FM are one foot out of it. They shouldnt be,
they should be closer.
PW:To assume that the FM guys are going
to be involved from the beginning is wrong.
If each object contains FM information at
concept design stage, then the model becomes
completely unworkable.
C: There are a lot of challenges to integrating
everything at the front end arent there?
LB: There are massive benets, but people
shouldnt underestimate the difculty. Weve been
around and seen loads of different contractors
very forward thinking ones, but if the clients not on
board, theyre passing the baton to nobody.
Smon rwlnson: Regarding the competitive
advantage to manufacturers, if you look at the earlyadopter projects, one of the direct savings a client
can achieve is to take out the cost of manually
updating a whole lot of information into FM
systems. But in a sense having FM suppliers opting
into that is turkeys voting for Christmas, because
If manufacturing data was included,
simply because it could be, for every
component, youll have a
pretty unwieldy memory-hungry model to deal withPeter Trebilcock,
Balfour Beatty
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this is a big upfront revenue generator for people to
set up contracts by plugging in data. BIM is saying
in this instance, were going to take that away from
you. You could say thats not in the FM industrys
interests. On the other side, we probably havent
been able to articulate what the contractors role
in creating that FM asset is, and you can see a
few contractors responding to that, and extending
themselves into creating that asset.
Manufacturers who provide data that can enable
contractors to cost-effectively create those FM
assets are going to be in a better position to secure
those contracts than those who arent. So we
seem to be opening up a new area of differentiation
and based on evidence from recent work weve
done for BIS and supply chain, most contractual
relationships with suppliers at the moment are
very cost driven. So something which says there
are people who cant engage with this because
they dont have the data, they dont have it in the
formats we need, that means these people are no
longer in play, at least for a period. That is a quite
powerful source of potential advantage. Its beingarticulated well by the industry and the opportu-
nitys obvious.
Regarding levels of detail required, Steve has
identied a really big challenge. The Government
BIM Task Group which I sit on has started to do
some very early prototyping on that; if you visit the
Labs section of the Task Group website, there
are Demand Matrices which are organised on a
detailed structure within a piece of work called
The Digital Plan of Work. Its starting to map out
the levels of detail and how the information might
be used. But this is two people doing some very
early work to get the industry engaged. We have
received no feedback from manufacturers at all.
Here is Government-funded work, quite well publi-
cised, its there for comment, as a starter for 10,
and the industry needs to engage, even to say we
dont understand this at all.
Thats a challenge for us around communication,
and this event is a good opportunity. The thinking is
being developed, but at the moment its fairly techy.
Csey D rutlnd: The Digital Plan of Work is
setting a framework for how manufacturers objects
from manufacturers should work in terms of apply-
ing data and geometry to product libraries. I think
its important that what we are trying to do is to
remain comparable and competitive. Theres a lotof work going on with the Construction Industry
Council in creating the Speciers Product Informa-
tion (SPie) templates so you can easily compare
one boiler, data-wise, to another. Thats a massive
task; therell be different parameters for data for all
product types.
Some of those data elds are contained within
the COBie spreadsheet format anyway. Its got
to happen and itll happen slowly, and theres no
easy way to tell every manufacturer how to create
these.
C: Is there a need for fairly user-friendly but
detailed guidelines?
Sr: If youd asked Christiaan Barnard when he was
trying to work out how to do a heart transplant,
can you come up with some user-friendly guide-
lines, hed probably say can we work out how
were going to do it rst? Its still quite complicated,
although there are some relatively simple analogies
we use. But actually then trying to articulate levels
of detail, what you need at different stages, you
need a whole load of people of people to engage
in that conversation. Its the whole industry coming
together and starting to say what they need.
My analogy of how BIMs going to operate is
a massive white board weve got some bits
populated with post-its, people saying this is howwere going to do this bit, weve a got a reason-
able idea of how one or two projects might be
delivered. But people will be doing it differently on
different projects.
Its great that people are saying we need this
common standard, now the question is how
does a collection of industries gather together to
write that?
PW: I agree, and there is a lot of naivety in terms of
what that specication is going to look like from the
road map of that level of detail. I think a lot a lot of
people assume that more is better, and thats just
not the case. And what I see a lot is manufacturers
trying to drive down to screws and nuts and bolts,
and more info, and the designers constantly trying
to pull back away from that level of detail.
There are certain bits of information which are
relevant at concept but which are irrelevant as you
move through the process. So the curve we see in
terms of what information is relevant at each data
drop is not a smooth line. Once a fancy 3D model
thats accurate with all screws and colours with all
data attached arrives at FM, the amount of informa-
tion has tailed off considerably.
C: Casey, is that tailing off happening within
real schemes?
CDr: No, its not. It does work both ways, there is alot of data we use at concept stage that is irrelevant
at FM point. But equally there is some performance
data that we need there, that is lost throughout the
process, which the FM guys could benet from
they might be replacing a door within a wall that is
two hour re rated as a whole, but the door doesnt
need to be, because its in a different zone.
C:Youre quite a fan of having a larger amount
of data than not, arent you?
CDr: More information is good, if you know how
to use it. If youre simply bloating things with data
as soon as you can, its not going to help anyone.
Im in two minds if its an issue whether models get
too big or not we build stadia and multi-storey
towers, and with the way technologys moving
I wouldnt get too fussed about how large the
models are becoming.
Linked databases are separate, the point is it
needs to be linked in to the model the model
needs to be geometry, and really, how much detail
do we need in the geometry? It just needs to be a
place holder. It needs to look nice for architectural
images, for us to convey ideas to clients and win
a job maybe. Inherently if we use a manufacturers
objects in order to build a scene and sell an idea,
theres already too much information in there data-
wise for the contractors to use.
We dont necessarily want the FM data then,
and if its in there, well just ignore it you havent
really dealt with it at that point.
C:There isnt really guidance on this aspect
though is there?
CDr:There is and there isnt. Reading through
PAS 1192, it says this is what we need at this
stage, Im a huge advocate of using the American
Institute of Architects E202 document that says
this is the information that can be relied upon at
this stage. Ive used that as a layer beneath PAS
1192 and the BIM protocols, because it goes more
granular. For example, it says because its a tube
station, we would prefer at Stage 2 to have loadsmore information on the substructure, because the
door knobs really dont matter right now, or the
walls above ground; the cost is in the foundations
of the building. If you ip that on its head, and say
youre building a data centre, you need loads of
information at Stage 2 about the MEP.
Its project-specic, we need to be able to
work through it project by project and say heres
a template, what does the client need to make
decisions at each stage?
LB:Theres too much obsession with capital
cost in the specication and not enough focus on
whole-life cost. Whats it going to give to the client
for 25 years? We need to look at the big picture,
and involve FMs. Im convinced that we should be
using more BIM tools to select product, consider-
ing whole life costs.
One of the direct savings
a client can achieve is
to take out the cost of
manually updating a whole
lot of information into FM systemsSimon Rawlinson, EC Harris
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PW: But is there not the inherent danger that infor-
mation that is contained in a model too early has a
risk associated with assumed design?
LB: Its context.
CDr: Thats where the E202 [American Institute of
Architects guidance] comes in.
LB:You might be identifying whats not acceptable.
PW:Yes, but if youve chosen a door handle at
an early stage because it looks nice rather than
its performance factors, all of which are included,
then is somebody else going to look at that model
and assume that that door handles been chosen
because of its performance?
Sr: Im absolutely with you on that one, and I
dont know how the products industry responds to
this, because thinking on procurement is moving
towards organisations like Balfour Beatty being
asked to deal with outputs of performance, over a
life. The Governments Soft Landings approach is
moving towards greater assessment of perfor-
mance in use.
Somebody assuming that a product is whats
been specied because somebody pulled an objectout of a library on the web, and then the delivery
teams dont behave as they should, ie to optimise
that component, thats a big risk.
C:The tail wagging the dog?
Sr: Yes, the one we could nd suddenly
becomes the spec. We have seen examples
of quite detailed design in some BIM-driven
procurements which have probably limited
contractors opportunities to improve perfor-
mance. Somebody species one component
then it has a knock-on effect.
Unless you are absolutely explicit that this is a
performance-specied object, that its exactly what
we want, how can you communicate it clearly?
CDr: In some cases you cant do that in the EU,
because you have to remain competitive to the
point where youve procured it.
Sr:You should remain competitive in all instances;
in very few instances should people be saying
I want exactly that object. Light ttings, door
handles, thats probably about it.
JW: Weve seen models coming in from architects
that just have the spec code on it, so you just have
the spec document, which may be performance-
related.
CDr: Id advocate that place-holder geometry.
PT: Can I ask, in the groups experience, how
many clients are asking for anything other than a
traditional O&M manual?
JW: Weve got one client that wants both a
straightforward O&M and a BIM model.
CDr: Out of the projects I am running, four.
Pul Woddy: A lot of clients are waiting to see
what comes, theyre not contractually requiring,
because they dont know.
LB: I think thats pretty sad, that some clients arewaiting for things to happen, weve got to show
some leadership.
One of the things weve found from some
[software] vendors, they tell you what you cant
achieve, more than what you can. It did feel a bit
like the tail wagging the dog, and we thought wed
just put our cards on the table.
Within our short term vision we are extracting
information from the model and we are making
it work with our estate management package.
We are running pilots to make sure its actually
happening. We had a session with vendors where
we got Mark Bew and Jamie Johnston of the BIM
Task Group to come up we said we didnt want
to have it with the vendors without them being in
the room, and John Lorimer (ex Manchester City
Council, now at Cabinet Ofce) came too. It was
quite powerful really, because we presented our
vision [to Concerto, Artra and E-docs], and told
them all to go and do their homework. We didnt
know what to expect from them, whether they
would work together, and they would.
Then we presented our long-term vision. Its
working for us, the way weve done it short-term,
and our FM team think its great. It is working for
us. Its about driving the market really, which is why
more clients and FM providers need to come tothe table.
BIM-Lite as an answer to client concerns?
PT: We have got a number of jobs using BIM,
and its our default position. Weve internally listed
about 60 benets half to us, half to the client. But
its a pity that half of our clients arent interested
in it. They dont see themselves changing their
operating model to conform to BIM and say why
cant it simply plug into their operating model?
The other reason given is we want a traditional
O&M manual the BIM data comes in a language
thats too complex, I dont want to go there, or I
dont want to have to buy expensive software to
access this data. These are the perceptions. They
are thinking they will have to change their whole
portfolio to comply, and havent got the budget for
the training necessary.
C:The cynical term for it might be the Not
Invented Here Syndrome?
PT:You could say that. Its why should I learn a
new language?
CDr: Its more a case of learning how to speak
English properly. Its not a completely new
language, its learning how to do it better.
PT: I think there ought to be a BIM-Lite option,
which makes it easier.
CDM:Thats exactly what were doing with two of
our clients, Broadgate Estates and Jaguar Land
Rover. They both said how do we get our informa-tion from your models to our FM systems, and we
showed them a few lines of COBie data, and they
picked the ones they wanted. So its data they will
use, they dont have to sift through hundreds of
lines.
PT: If more clients understood they can have a
BIM-Lite, thered be a Eureka moment.
CDr: Its not Level 2 compliant, but it makes their
business work!
Pul Evns: I think that view is important from
a manufacturers perspective as well as these
huge amounts of data sets that we will be asked
to populate to get our products BIM ready, if we
knew what the essentials were, you could have
a BIM-Lite. The fear factor exists in the product
manufacturing world its being left to individual
manufacturers to try and drive competitive advan-
tage through being one of the rst to embrace it.
JW: Weve had a job recently where weve had the
information from a client, just the steelwork and
the architects model, and the model has got so
unwieldy, even the clients software cant handle it.
So theyve had to split the building up, and this is
before weve put any of our information into that
model.
COBie, and other detailed issuesSr:The point was made earlier about when a
client asks for COBie COBie should sit in the
background, its a data structure, a means of one
platform talking to another. Were on that journey
where a client is saying they want the information
from the construction project in their FM system
how the industry goes about that is to some
degree up to the industry. You wouldnt want to bet
your entire future on a large Excel spreadsheet.
Youd expect a client to ask for the information
in a standard way, but I would be surprised if they
asked for COBie. This goes back to who drives
improvement in the industry is it the client or the
industry itself? Its useful to learn how other supply
chains managed to coalesce around standard
ways of working.
PT: What do the Government want at the end of
the project? Do they want models, do they want
Theres not been much clarification on
what the market needs when
it comes to level of detailSteve Cookson,
Sika Liquid Plastics
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drawings, specication, or COBie?
Sr:They want data, in COBie format, for purposes
such as FM.
PT:Theres the perception amongst a lot of clients
that its COBie or nothing, for satisfying FM require-
ments.
LB:A lot of clients including ourselves are
embracing COBie but we struggle with the logic
of it at times, because it delves into the minutiae.
I dont know if its a tad academic, but Ive got
the utmost respect for the individuals in the team
who have done it. I think the format needs to be
tailored to client needs were struggling to nd
people we can share ideas with. The information
must be user-friendly these people are running
buildings, they dont want to have to go and learn
a new trade.
I dont think its unreasonable to say the informa-
tion must be compatible with existing systems. Our
city has made a substantial investment.
Sr: We might have a misapprehension here.
COBies nothing more than a means to an end.
C: So its being misunderstood in the industry?
Sr:Yes. A worst outcome is that you have 25versions of HTML, in the analogy of designing a
website. I think the really strong message around
this table is saying you can have a lot of differ-
ent versions of COBie is against the interests of
all manufacturers, because you want to coalesce
around one standard. COBie might not be the right
standard, but its going in the right direction, so
debate around whether its t for purpose, not lets
go off and do lots of different ones.
CDr: Its the structure of the document. If you can
keep it as is and just use that as a common format
and export it as a CSV le, that can be read by
multiple different packages. Whether you complete
those columns, is a different matter, but thats my
version of COBie-Lite.
Sr: At this stage its the best standard thats
available to help people start to coalesce around
a common way of working. The PAS standard
is more around a formal set of data exchange
standards.
PW: The last thing we want is each of these FM
software providers each to go off and develop their
own communication standards of extracting data
from the model.
PT: Is there a danger that we are trying to get the
industry to become experts in COBie, rather than
somebody devising a simple system that meets
clients needs?
PW: Yes.
Sr: What we encouraging, through the Technology
Alliance for example, is to get software providers
to coalesce around providing extract/query tools
that enable you take that information out from the
environment you are accustomed to working in. If
you dont have that standard to develop against,
nothing happens, and thats the danger.
All manufacturers in this room would be
absolutely right to not do anything until a standard
emerged. Theres one get behind it, improve it,
thats where the engagement needs to be.
C: David, does COBie t your needs as amanufacturer?
Dvd Glles: We are in the very early stages,
weve only just released our BIM objects. Theres a
big reliance at our stage on someone like BIM Store
in understanding COBie requirements and what we
should put in as data.
Fnk Welng: Most problems on site occur when
the services are put in, plumbers or electricians
doing something. We have BIM objects packed
with data, Im not sure whether its too much or too
little we developed software that works with our
supply chain.
SC: It seems they are almost wanting two levels
of detail (RIBA in our case), when the spec is rst
written, and at design stage. The question I have
is what purpose does the model serve in the end,
and who is it serving?
PW:You use the word end, and thats sometimes
the confusion the t-for-purpose nature of the
model has no end; it has tness for purpose today.
As the model then progresses, some of the infor-
mation still has relevance (geometry and metadata),
other bits less so. Later it may come back that we
need more geometry again, as we start to look at
the xings and whether things t.
C: Steve, you seem to be saying that theres
still nowhere near the amount of guidance toenable you to go into the process with clarity?
SC: I attended today to learn from others, and I
will look at the Digital Plan of Work that Simons
mentioned. But BIMs in its early stages, we are all
learning.
Refurbishment, and other FM challenges
SC: What are peoples opinions of how BIM is
being used in the refurbishment market? BIM is
heavily geared towards new build in my opinion,
but whats the Governments plan for refurbish-
ment?
PT: I asked a colleague who advises property
owners, what do you think product manufactur-
ers ought to be prioritising? On refurbishment, he
said over the past 12 months hed surveyed 30 m2
of built assets, and only a handful had mentioned
BIM. Why? Because the majority of existing build-
ings dont have a BIM model. So the FM providers
are doing FM for millions of square metres without
BIM. He said therell only be a shift as BIM starts
to listen to the FM world its about essential
data and not data drops. He said they need key
quantities, the grade, size, typical performance and
warranty data, and then cleaning regimes.
LB:The big thing that a lot of FM people are
absolutely anal about is space, and BIM can help
with that. Im taking on board what Simon said
about COBie, but we are getting information from
suppliers that we dont need, they are going the
extra mile. Its very difcult for us to dictate, but Im
listening to whats been said about future compat-
ibility, and Im thinking maybe we need to take the
information and adjust it slightly to COBie format.
About retrospective BIM, we are refurbishing
iconic buildings in the city, so theres a real sense
of worth. What were trying to do is draw in some
of our commercial and nance people, get them
close to BIM. Were working on doing a lot of
case studies, with Cabinet Ofce guys, capital but
also operational ones, which will probably go upon the Task Group website. The City Treasurer is
seeing the benets; BIM helps us make informed
decisions.
Sr: 2016 is about large-scale refurb, a 50K patch
up over the summer, probably not. But this is a
volume opportunity for the industry, and in many
ways, knowing the geometry of the fabric, getting
some automation in achieving performance in
insulation, would work quite well. Some work done
in France by Saint-Gobain is effectively coming up
with an automated design application to help them
implement their fabric performance initiatives.
One of the opportunities that someone like
Sika might see is do we actually need to have an
architect to work out the best way of putting in an
If youve chosen a door
handle at an early stage
because it looks nice,
is somebody else going to look at
the model and assume that its been
chosen because of its performance?
Paul Woddy,White Frog Publishing
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upstand detail in an existing building, when we have
the survey and can automate it. No-one wants to
procure one-off solutions any more.
CDr: We originally did Broadgate Circus and are
now refurbing it, using Revit as a standard produc-
tion tool, amongst others. It would have taken us
months to survey it traditionally, but we had it laser
scanned internally and externally, and we now have
that point cloud to use natively within the Revit le.
Ive always been a big advocate of using that data
as long as you can without turning it into objects
until you absolutely need to.
Resolving software and data issues
SC: We do 2D standard and bespoke details, but
is that the level of detail thats needed at refurbish-
ment, because new build is geared around NBS,
which is a very generic outline document in my
opinion. We do go down to a much greater level
of detail on existing buildings. Is it just a case of
providing those details in 3D?
PW:The assumption is often that BIM is a prede-ned library. But theres no reason why it cant be
delivered in a bespoke way it doesnt have to sit
there and be static.
PW: Can I ask suppliers which division in your
company paid for the production of that?
SC:Technical services.
[Other suppliers]: Its normally marketing.
PW:Thats kind of where I was going that in many
respects changes the way a manufacturer looks at
the fundamental problem of BIM. Whether they are
changing their systems to use its advantages to the
maximum, or the other extreme being ticking a box.
There are plenty of places in between.
tools, and it throws up challenges. The industry as
a whole, through the technology, needs to gure
out what the common language is so that we can
all work together.
C: Revit is pretty much the standard platform,
is that right?
CDr: Its Arups primary production tool but not
everything can be created within that.
PW: I need to say Im a former Revit employee,
but it is the only tool that can successfully allow
an architect, a structural engineer and an MEPservices engineer to communicate 100% on a
project. Until we see the holy grail of IFC allowing
us to perfectly communicate between different
software packages, at the moment Revit is the only
one that covers all the disciplines.
PT: To minimise our risk and issues with interoper-
ability, it is our preference that everybody works on
the same platform. We cant always dictate that of
course, but it makes life so much easier.
C: BIM can mean several different platforms
working together concurrently, is that right?
PW: It isnt necessarily one single software source.
We shouldnt start to argue that everyone in the
industry should have to learn Revit in order to be
involved in BIM. It is about having something which
means that you can plug information in and extract
information, its not about the technology.
C: What are the current issues with compat-
ibility on projects?
PT: Loss of data.
PW: Loss of design intent. For instance, on steel-
work weve got varying standards, but unless you
know the intricacies of how those different software
applications will handle the interchange between
packages, it can have a major impact on the
design intent of the model.
CDr: There are always backups, were still provid-ing two-dimensional drawings to say this is actually
what we think it should be.
Three-dimensional views of models
PT: (Directed to Chair): Your comments right at
the beginning, that one of the drivers is efciency
savings of 20%, those savings wont be realised
while there are still interoperability issues.
DG: Are the software providers working towards a
solution in that case?
PT: I dont think theyre working hard enough;
there isnt the perfect scenario right now, so youll
nd youll lose data or somebodys unable to play
a full part in the BIM process. Youre limiting your
efciency, having to redraw, rework, redesign.
Sr: But even if one thinks that some of the biggest
gains in terms of hitting those initial savings are
around co-ordination and clash detection, you can
One of the things weve
found from some vendors,
they tell you what you cant
achieve, more than what you canLiam Brady,
Manchester City Council
PT: We are interested not only in the product, but in
the service. We want to know how you are going to
get it in, how you are going to get the waste out.
What do you need to provide? A whole host of
possibilities, for different purposes. Because there
are the assessment tools, energy tools, ow rates
that you can build in as a designer, but theres
also the data from manufacturers. I can tell you
what Im looking for, but there might be another 10
things the designer or client is looking for. Thats
the excitement but also the complexity that comes
with BIM. Its almost more to do with learning about
data management than what BIM is, its how we
manage that data that you provide, or what your
installers need to know.
FW: Its almost as if everything in the model needs
a tag, containing the information, and whoever gets
that in the model, it lters what they need.
Sr: I think thats spot on, it goes back to talking
about models being more or less populated at
different times in the scheme. Casey might need a
whole lot of stuff around U-values, but what is thepurpose and what is the information requirement
can we articulate that better and to some extent
thats what the data drops are. There are a whole
lot of supply chain data drops around coordination,
clash detection, health and safety, logistics, which
the client shouldnt have to articulate.
So when you look at some of the processes
in the PAS standard, the diagrams enable you
to some extent anticipate what clients might be
asking for.
C: Is thatad hoc or is there a national standard
yet for data drops, to get it off clients backs?
Sr: If we were comparing what HS2 need to know
compared to Ministry of Justice, you can say the
Governments term Plain Language Questions is
a generic term for heres a question that needs an
answer to get us through a gateway.
Different clients have different decision points,
so you cant have a standard that says this
will happen at this point, different procure-
ment processes will have different supply chains
engaged at different times. We could have Sika
involved right up front, so they might be providing
information really early on. I think we have to be
realistic and pragmatic around how the industry
operates. Its thinking about currency of data, how
data can help us do things better.CDr:A lot of the discussion has been about
COBie, and no one mentioned IFC [the Industry
Foundation Classes data model]. COBie is a small
part of IFC, and I think if anyones looking at invest-
ing in the future of their product libraries, to BIM
level 2 or level 3, they really need to get a grip on
how IFC works, and how the data moves from one
platform to another.
We need to end up in a position where the
data is hosted somewhere that everyone can
get to it and people access information via an
archive environment. All computing power is done
where that model is saved, so model size doesnt
become an issue; it becomes industry-standard
information.
Yes, Autodesk do have 60% of the market, but
it needs to be slightly more open than that. Arup
uses a whole range of different BIM-authoring
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bring quite a lot of that information together through
some of these proprietary tools. The initial hits/quick
wins of is the building coordinated, is the asset
coordinated, can we get a programme out of it?
can be grabbed. The later bits towards the 20% with
everybody communicating with one another are a
bit further away, so we should have people working
towards as much benet as they can get via what
are effectively the low hanging fruit areas.
PT: Yes, the challenge is where youve got a fully
integrated BIM model at design stage M&E,
CMS, architecture, but then what you want to do
is then to substitute the stair design with the actual
stair, one model out, one model in the steelwork,
M&E services, ditto. Thats where you get Oh I
work in Tekla or Im not going to change my whole
business for you. It might be wonderful in eight
out of 10 areas, but there are those two bits which
dont give you quite all the benets you might have
had with full interoperability. Youve lost some of the
optimisation.Sr: We can observe that integration of Revit with
some analysis tools that the professional disciplines
use, things such as thermal modelling, isnt perfect.
C: Is that down to the software providers to
sort out?
PW: Not necessarily, its also down to a funda-
mental issue we have in that were still contractu-
ally obliged to deliver a project based upon a set
of GA drawings and typical details. Until we see
a contract which states that the model has to
have a certain level of accuracy, the BIM is inher-
ently awed you cannot extract quantities of
concrete because the model has strayed from the
deliverables of the drawings. The two-dimensional
drawings are currently a contractual obligation and
therefore your model is handed over with massive
disclaimers saying For information purposes only,
do not scale, refer to drawings.
JW: On one project weve been asked to do the
O&Ms for both including an as-built BIM model, so
if it changes on-site, the model is adjusted to suit.
Sr: The CIC protocol which would be added to
a designers appointment or to a contractors
contract, creates the BIM models as deliverables
and they needed to be complete to the level of
detail required.
PW: The as required is the grey area, isnt it?
Sr: But in the same way that working outside of
BIM its a grey area. From that situation where you
would have the model straying from what the GAs
are showing, youre now seeing the model starting
to become the primary deliverable.
CDr: I would not want a section of the oor slab
junction being different to the model. If it was the
likes of 50, 25 mm Id go and change it, Id have
my model set up so that it reected that change on
one oor, or on 50 oors.
PW: The problem in receiving that model is, do
you make the assumption that you have that moral
regard for your deliverable or not.
CDr: Thats when you learn who to work with andwho not to work with!
LB: Weve got great examples on our project
where things have been modelled, like service rafts
on a typical oorplate, modelled in detail. With the
2D versions its not quite what youd like.
PW: The issue is that there is inherently a large
portion of the design that never goes past the
schematic. And in that respect it becomes an
aesthetic to produce a tap, because were not
actually going to model the connections that tie
that to the services, were talking purely in terms of
how pretty it looks and thats the reason why were
putting that into the model, rather than knowing
exactly how much pipe well need.
Does BIM go to that extent where we do
model everything, does that then mean that the
process of adopting BIM
becomes a hindrance
to the saving, to the
efciency of that design?
Do we take it too far?
Sr: Everything needs a tag,
you tag every socket outlet,
every tap, every valve, every
shutter point: those need
to be in the BIM but maybe
you dont need the thingsjoining them together.
PW: We know that light switch is attached to that
light, we dont need a physical cable to do so.
C: What are the product manufacturers
experiences in this area?
FW: The biggest interface we have is with M&E.
Plumbing, changes due to Building Regulations,
large holes going through the oor etc. Its all possi-
ble but it has to be designed at the right point, so if
you know it in advance, you could work out exactly
how much cable you would need, and say as a
builder to an electrician, if its any longer then youre
wasting my money and youre wasting materials.
Sr: A report was produced by CIC and BIS
earlier in the year which looked at the residential
sector, and said that it needed to be industri-
alised to get the volume thats needed, but we
all know why the industry keeps not doing that
and keeps producing fairly simple products. In
many ways thats what the Digital Plan of Work is
moving towards.
PW: Casey, as an architect what do you think about,
effectively, nancial people designing buildings?
CDr: Well, QS dont have curved rulers do they!
It happens to some extent already, but it shouldnt
hinder the design process. If youre getting cost
advice, it needs to be weighed up in terms of
benets for the project against what the client
would like as a building.
Sr: What I described there had nothing to do with
cost, it was to do with how you actually build things
out of components, how do you start to bring
things down to their essence in many ways thats
what good design is.
PW: I was playing devils advocate then for a reason,
because one of the other problems weve got as
an industry is that if you even discuss that sort
of approach, certainly in the academic circles of
architecture, then you get an awful lot of pushback.
In one university which I wont name, theyve got 56
lecturers teaching BIM and Revit, through all sortsof professional disciplines. The one department that
doesnt want anything to do with BIM is architecture,
because to them, it interferes with the fundamental
art of what they do.
The Culture Change
C: What does the culture change mean in
practice? Is it that CAD guys are suddenly the most
important in the ofce, or is it more than that; might
BIM bring architects back into the mainstream?
CDr: We are trying I have had chats with [RIBA
president] Angela Brady and weve been talking to
professional bodies, but its difcult to get people
on board and get them to understand what the
industrys doing because most of the people of
inuence are disconnected from the current way of
doing things.
PT: Theres a need for
a cultural shift in all
aspects of our industry
what are the cultural
barriers for product
manufacturers?
DG: Extremely
difcult cultural barri-
ers from time to time
in senior management tounderstand the implications for the business; same
difculties conveying it to them as to clients. Clients
who want BIM, but dont know what BIM is, but
they want it, they dont know why but they wonder
if they can make some money out of it.
PW: James mentioned at the beginning the gure
of 30K for a product manufacturer to adopt BIM,
but that doesnt help because I think for a SME
manufacturer, all they need to do is to understand
BIM and they need to be able to have a discussion
about it because for me, BIM can be summed up
in the word communication. And, in a lot of these
cases when we talk about level of detail, we talk
about the data drops, we talk about the interoper-
ability languages and the rest of it its all about
agreeing a communication strategy.
I would rather see a manufacturer do nothing
other than fully understand what BIM is and how
There is a lot of data we
use at concept stage
that is irrelevant at
FM pointCasey D Rutland,
Arup Associates
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C: Peter, what can you pinpoint savings-wise
so far on projects?
PT: Its difcult to pinpoint accurate savings on
a particular project, but we have a supply chain
partner providing steel framing systems, saved us
three weeks on a programme, and that equates to
money. Looking at BIM as a construction technique,
top down, bottom, up, simulating, evaluating,
optimising, saved us 10m on a project. I think
weve really yet to tap into the savings that can
come from the optimisation of the product data.
C: What would that entail, to be measurable?
PT: Having an electronic as-built asset, including
everything. We want to be able to give the client
their information, without costing them anything a
proactive O&M manual. Weve got one or two of
our supply chain partners working closely with us,
helping to develop that, BIM-Lite touch. Sometimes
that long-term management of the building will be us.
But its also around knowing what you have,
from a product data point of view. Once we make
that transfer from a generic specication to a
manufacturer, its very handy to know that across a
suite of hospitals, for example, a Procure 21 client
will want us to share best practice, share the learn-
ing on where weve got more efcient theyll be
rolling out the benets for everybody.
CDr: From very very early on, just from using the
authoring software, working in an environment
where the same planned sections, elevations and
3D views are all coming from one model seems
such common sense, but it still isnt done in many
architectural and design practices. People are really
saying BIMs not for us, its just for big practices,
well Im sorry, but if you had one person using that
software creating all those plans on one project, the
other three can work on other projects. So, from
that simple point of view, theres got to be a design
benet for everyone using the software in that
environment yes there is a delay, yes there is a
cost to train these people and buying the software,
but realistically if they were using two dimensional
software theyd still have to invest in hardware and
software to get to that point and train new people,
and I think its not really that much of a leap to train
them on BIM software.
Talking about the savings on site, its the small
things, one of the low-hanging fruits Simonmentioned was clash detection, and I do hate it
when people talk about BIM as being all about
clash detection and it being one of the massive
benets, because its just common sense, its
design coordination thats not a massive benet.
But at the same time whats actually happened is
youve prevented someone from having to tempo-
rarily prop something and come and cut a massive
hole in a chunk of steel, so youve got health and
safety benets, youve got cost benets, youve
got programme benets, all by saying lets reroute
through there. Its a common-sense thing that
youve not really accounted for, and things like that
are really measurable. Ultimately you will end up
saving time and resources, therefore money.
C: What about the product sector?
Sr: Its about how do you organise your compo-
nents with the least waste. Its not about pods, its
about bringing assemblies together. Thats what
the industry should be like, but so often its not, its
about bodging stuff on site, the more we get away
from that, thats where the savings will be delivered.
PW: One of the problems of articulating ROI for BIM
has always been that it removes a lot of the error, and
nobody ever wants to admit what it costs to make
those errors and what sort of money is wasted.
C: It also removes risk monies if somethings
not clear, you have risk, but if youve got clarity...
C: Will transparency in BIM help to avoid
switching a specication for an inferior alternative?
DG:The idea of using a BIM object because its
the only one available, and then essentially making
it equal or approved, I guess that suggests that
in a lot of cases it still will be interchangeable;
there wont necessarily be a huge advantage for
manufacturers. Also Casey, I know you use a lot
of your own models, as opposed to manufacturer
models, and theres an interchangeability after-wards. The thing I take from today that is a little bit
concerning is that it does appear to be quite simple
to switch things out within reason.
CDr:Yes, transparency makes things better, it will
highlight where things have been switched out,
hopefully, but until we get to a point where each
comparable object is comparable on a level basis
for the same parameters, on the same units, the
same scale, we cant really make a quick, simple,
fair judgement. The reason why I use a lot of my
own components within our own library is because
I know they work for the purposes we need to use
them for. We can use fairly generic components.
PT: Were all in the commercial world, and the
clients looking for efciencies, cost optimisation,
building optimisation. Its a complex thing when
we select our supply chain partners health and
safetys important, sustainability is important, reduc-
ing waste is important, getting guarantees, warran-
ties, longevity, all of that is important, as well as
the right price. Weve said to our supply chain, and
those that want to work with us, that if youre not
BIM-literate, were not excluding you from the party
right now, but in a years time, all other things being
equal, those that are, will have the advantage.
Visit buildingproducts.co.uk to download a PDF
version of this document.
Weve listed 60 benefits of BIM
internally, to us and clients, but
its a pity that half of our
clients arent interestedPeter Trebilcock,
Balfour Beatty
WE WOULD LIKE TO THANK THE ROUND TABLE SPONSORS FOR MAKING THIS EVENT POSSIBLE
Photos:DavidBerman