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Exami nat i on No. 14- 0775 Cour t Fi l e No. A- 218- 14
FEDERAL COURT OF APPEAL
B E T W E E N:
DR. GABOR LUKACS
APPLI CANT
- and
CANADI AN TRANSPORTATI ON AGENCY
RESPONDENT
**********************
CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON OF PATRI CE BELLEROSE ON HER AFFI DAVI T
SWORN J ULY 29, 2014, pur suant t o an appoi nt ment made onconsent of t he par t i es, t o be r epor t ed by Gi l l espi e
Repor t i ng Ser vi ces, on t he 21st day of August , 2014,
commenci ng at t he hour of 10: 29 i n t he f orenoon.
**********************
APPEARANCES:
Dr . Gabor Lukacs, f or t he Appl i cant
Mr . Si mon- Pi er r e Lessar d, f or t he Respondent
Thi s Cr oss - Exami nat i on was di gi t al l y r ecor ded by Gi l l espi e
Repor t i ng Ser vi ces at Ot t awa, Ont ar i o, havi ng been dul y appoi nt ed
f or t he pur pose.
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( i )
INDEX
NAME OF WI TNESS: PATRI CE BELLEROSE
CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON BY: DR. GABOR LUKACS
NUMBER OF PAGES: 2 THROUGH TO AND I NCLUDI NG 27
ADVISEMENTS, OBJECTIONS & UNDERTAKINGS
*O* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5, 6, 7, 16, 23
EXHIBITS
EXHIBIT NO. 1: Af f i davi t of Pat r i ce Bel l er ose dat ed J ul y 29, 2014
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
EXHIBIT NO. 2: Di r ect i on t o At t end dat ed August 8, 2014 . . . . . . . . 2
EXHIBIT NO. 3: At t achment t o t he emai l dat ed March 19, 2014 12: 58PM, f r om Pat r i ce Bel l er ose t o Dr . Gabor Lukacs, at t achment121 pages. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
EXHIBIT NO. 4: Canadi an Transpor t at i on Agency General Rul es, Rul eNo. 23. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21
DATE TRANSCRI PT ORDERED: August 21, 2014
DATE TRANSCRI PT COMPLETED: August 25, 2014
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PATRICE BELLEROSE, SWORN:1
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. GABOR LUKACS:2
1. Q. Ms. Bel l er ose, I under st and t hat on J ul y 29,3
2014, you swor e an af f i davi t .4
A. Yes.5
DR. LUKACS: Let s mar k t hat Af f i davi t as Exhi bi t6
1.7
EXHIBIT NO. 1: Af f i davi t of Pat r i ce Bel l er ose8
dat ed J ul y 29, 20149
DR. LUKACS:10
2. Q. And I under st and t hat you r ecei ved t he11
Di r ect i on t o At t end dat ed August 8, 2014.12
A. That i s cor r ect.13
DR. LUKACS: Let s mar k i t as Exhi bi t 2.14EXHIBIT NO. 2: Di r ect i on t o At t end dat ed August 8,15
201416
DR. LUKACS:17
3. Q. For how l ong have you been worki ng wi t h t he18
Canadi an Transpor t at i on Agency and i n what r ol es?19
A. I have been worki ng wi t h t he Canadi an20
Tr anspor t at i on Agency f or j ust about si x years and my21
i ni t i al posi t i on was t he manager of r ecor d servi ces and22
access t o i nf or mat i on and pr i vacy co- or di nat or f or t he23
Agency i ni t i al l y f or t he f i r st one t o t wo year s. I was24
t he act i ng di r ect or of t he i nf or mat i on ser vi ces25
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di r ect or at e f or t hr ee and a hal f year s and I have r ecent l y1
been changed t o a sl i ght l y di f f er ent posi t i on as t he2
seni or manager of i nf or mat i on servi ces but t hat agai n i s3
supposed t o be changi ng shor t l y. Ther e i s goi ng t o be4
anot her r eor gani zat i on of t he Agency.5
4. Q. I n your cur r ent r ol e what ar e your6
respons i bi l i t i es?7
A. I am r esponsi bl e f or al l r ecor ds, r ecor d8
keepi ng at t he Agency, r et ent i on, di sposi t i ons, keepi ng9
t he f i l es, so i nf or mat i on management , access t o10
i nf or mat i on and mai l ser vi ces.11
5. Q. So when you say r ecor ds can you el aborate12
what you mean by r ecor ds i n t hat cont ext ?13
A. Al l r ecor ds r el at i ng t o t he Agency, bot h14t r ansi t or y and of f i ci al r ecor ds.15
6. Q. So f or exampl e, when t he Agency orders paper16
woul d t hat al so be a r ecor d t hat you woul d be handl i ng?17
A. I f we - - t he or der f or t he paper ?18
7. Q. Yes, t he i nvoi ce and al l t hose t hi ngs, ar e19
t hose recor ds i n t hi s sense?20
A. I t depends. Pr obabl y f or a per i od of t i me we21
have t o have a recor d of an i nvoi ce, sur e.22
8. Q. And al so submi ssi ons of par t i es and23
pr oceedi ngs bef ore the Agency ar e recor ds?24
A. Case f i l es ar e r ecor ds of t he Agency, yes.25
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9. Q. Okay. I n your cur r ent posi t i on can you1
descr i be t o me t he chai n of command, who i s your i mmedi at e2
super vi sor , super i or or whom do you r epor t ?3
A. Ri ght now I r epor t t o t he di r ect or of4
i nf or mat i on ser vi ces who t he cur r ent act i ng i s Chr i st i ne5
Gur et t e. She r epor t s t o t he act i ng di r ect or of6
communi cat i ons and i nf ormat i on ser vi ces br anch whi ch i s7
J acquel i ne Banni st er who r epor t s di r ect l y t o t he chai r man.8
10. Q. J ust t o conf i r m, ar e you cur r ent l y or have you9
ever been a member of t he Canadi an Tr anspor t at i on Agency?10
A. Of t he whi ch?11
11. Q. Of t he Canadi an Transpor t at i on Agency. Have12
you been a member ?13
A. No.1412. Q. I n car r yi ng out your dut i es as manager of15
r ecor d servi ces and access t o i nf or mat i on and pr i vacy ar e16
you r equi r ed t o f ol l ow t he deci si ons, r ul es and pol i ci es17
made by t he Agency?18
A. Yes.19
13. Q. Now l et s l ook at Exhi bi t A t o your Af f i davi t .20
Do you have i t i n f r ont of you?21
A. Exhi bi t A t o my Af f i davi t ?22
14. Q. Yes.23
A. Yes.24
15. Q. Thi s i s an emai l dat ed Febr uar y 14t h, 201425
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f r om mysel f t o t he secr et ar y of t he Agency, cor r ect ?1
A. Yes.2
16. Q. Were you aware when you r ecei ved t hi s t hat i t3
expl i ci t l y makes r ef er ence t o t he f act t hat t he r equest i s4
made pur suant t o sect i on 2( b) of t he Char t er ?5
A. Yes.6
17. Q. Di d you under st and t he meani ng of a r equest7
pur suant t o sect i on 2( b) of t he Char t er ?8
A. Yes.9
18. Q. What does i t mean?10
A. I t means t hat you were maki ng a r equest under11
t he Char t er , under your Char t er r i ght s, and any request s12
f or i nf or mat i on at t he Agency ar e t r eat ed as i n - - t hose13
t ypes of r equest s are t r eat ed as i nf or mal r equest s f or14i nf or mat i on.15
19. Q. What does sect i on 2( b) of t he Chart er mean t o16
you?17
MR. LESSARD: For t he r ecor d, I wi l l obj ect t o t he18
quest i on because - - wel l t her e i s an i ssue of r el evance19
but al so because you ar e aski ng the opi ni on t o t he20
wi t ness. However Madam Bel l er ose wi l l answer subj ect t o21
t he r i ght t o have t he pr opr i et y of t he quest i on det er mi ned22
by t he cour t at a l at er dat e. *23
DR. LUKACS: Sur e.24
THE WI TNESS: Okay so my under st andi ng i s t hat you25
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were maki ng a r equest under t he Char t er whi ch you were1
sayi ng your Char t er r i ght s al l owed you t o request t he2
document s as t hey were part of t he open cour t pr i nci pl e3
and wer e subj ect - - i t was under your Char t er r i ght s as4
opposed t o maki ng a f ormal access t o i nf ormat i on r equest .5
DR. LUKACS:6
20. Q. Di d you make any i nqui r y t o anybody at t he7
Agency as t o t he meani ng of a request pur suant t o sect i on8
2( b) of t he Char t er ?9
A. Wel l , we di scussed your r equest wi t h t he10
secret ar y and l egal ser vi ces.11
MR. LESSARD: I wi l l obj ect because i t i s12
sol i ci t or / cl i ent pr i vi l ege wi t h r espect t o di scussi ons13
wi t h l egal ser vi ces and - - l i ke f or t he r est of t he14quest i on I don t r eal l y have a pr obl em wi t h i t . *15
THE WI TNESS: So we di scussed t he r equest and i t16
was det er mi ned that we woul d pr oceed, even t hough you had17
i ndi cat ed t hat i t was under sect i on 2( b) of t he Char t er ,18
t hat we woul d pr oceed as a normal r equest f or i nf ormat i on19
as we nor mal l y recei ve f or ot her case f i l es t hr oughout t he20
Agency. We r egul ar l y r ecei ve t hem f r om ot her appl i cant s21
on a dai l y basi s.22
DR. LUKACS:23
21. Q. Di d you r ecei ve any i nst r uct i ons f r om your24
super i ors about how t o pr ocess such a r equest pur suant t o25
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sect i on 2( b) of t he Char t er ?1
A. Al l r equest s f or i nf or mat i on ar e pr ocessed2
t hr ough our of f i ce i n a st andar d f ashi on; ei t her t hey ar e3
f or mal r equest s under t he Access t o I nf or mat i on Act or4
t hey ar e i nf or mal . Gener al l y anybody aski ng f or5
i nf or mat i on r egar di ng a case f i l e t hat i s ongoi ng at t he6
Agency i s consi dered an i nf ormal r equest because t he7
document s ar e par t of t he publ i c r ecor d.8
22. Q. So do you agr ee wi t h me t hat Exhi bi t A t o your9
Af f i davi t was not a request made pur suant t o t he Access t o10
I nf or mat i on Act ?11
MR. LESSARD: I wi l l obj ect f or t he r ecor d agai n12
because i n t hi s case i t i s not appr opr i at e i n t hi s t ype of13
exami nat i on t o ask f or admi ssi ons f r om a wi t ness. She i s14her e as a wi t ness and not as a par t y. However Madame15
Bel l er ose wi l l answer subj ect t o t he r i ght t o have t he16
pr opr i et y of t he quest i on det er mi ned by t he cour t at a17
l at er dat e. *18
THE WI TNESS: I t was not consi der ed a f or mal19
r equest under t he Access t o I nf or mat i on Act , no. I t di d20
not meet t he requi r ement s.21
DR. LUKACS:22
23. Q. So at sect i on 3 of your af f i davi t you say t hat23
t he r equest was t r eat ed as an i nf or mal access r equest .24
A. Yes.25
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24. Q. Can you pl ease expl ai n exact l y what an1
i nf ormal access r equest means?2
A. I t means any r equest s f or gover nment r ecor ds3
t hat ar e not compl et ed f or mal l y under t he Access t o4
I nf or mat i on Act , meani ng i t must r equi r e t he $5 f ee. I t5
must have t he f ormal f orm t hat has been compl eted and6
si gned.7
25. Q. So i n t he case of t hi s r equest you d agr ee8
t hat no f ee was pai d.9
A. No f ee was pai d nor was the f or m f i l l ed out .10
26. Q. So t her e ar e t wo t ypes of r equest s. Ther e i s11
a f or mal r equest wher e t he f ee i s pai d and t he f or m i s12
compl eted and - -13
A. Cor r ect .1427. Q. - - t hose ar e t r eat ed as f or mal r equest s under15
t he Act .16
A. Cor r ect .17
28. Q. And t hen t her e ar e t he i nf or mal r equest s whi ch18
ar e ever ythi ng el se whi ch ar e not t r eat ed under t he Act ,19
correct?20
A. That ' s cor r ect.21
29. Q. I n par agr aph 3 of your Af f i davi t you say t hat22
t hi s r equest was t r eat ed and I am quot i ng, i n conf or mi t y23
wi t h t he di r ect i ve on t he admi ni st r at i on of t he Access t o24
I nf or mat i on Act .25
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A. Yes.1
30. Q. I s Exhi bi t B t o your Af f i davi t t he di r ect i ve2
t hat you ar e r ef er r i ng t o?3
A. Yes.4
31. Q. Can you poi nt t o speci f i c pr ovi si ons of t he5
di r ect i ve t o whi ch t r eat i ng t he r equest as an i nf or mal6
access r equest conf orms?7
A. Sect i on 7. 4. 5.8
32. Q. Woul d you mi nd r eadi ng i t i nt o t he r ecor d j ust9
f or cl ar i t y?10
A. I nf or mal pr ocessi ng11
7. 4. 5 Det er mi ni ng whet her i t i s appr opr i at e t o12
pr ocess the r equest on an i nf or mal basi s. I f so,13
of f er i ng t he r equest er t he possi bi l i t y of t r eat i ng14t he request i nf or mal l y and expl ai ni ng t hat onl y15
f or mal r equest s ar e subj ect t o pr ovi si ons of t he16
Act.17
33. Q. So j ust f or cl ar i t y, accor di ng t o t hi s18
di r ect i ve an i nf or mal r equest f or access i s not subj ect t o19
t he pr ovi si ons of t he Act . I s t hat cor r ect ?20
A. An i nf or mal ?21
34. Q. Yes.22
A. That i s cor r ect.23
35. Q. And di d you consul t t hi s di r ect i ve when you24
were deci di ng how t o t r eat my r equest ?25
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A. No, because any r equest t hat we r ecei ve f or1
i nf or mat i on at t he Agency ot her t han f or mal r equest s ar e2
t r eat ed as i nf or mal access t o i nf or mat i on r equest s.3
36. Q. Let s move on. I asked you t o br i ng t he4
at t achment t o your March 19, 2014 emai l whi ch was5
r ef er enced i n par agr aph 4 of your Af f i davi t .6
A. Yes.7
37. Q. I bel i eve i t consi st s of 121 pages.8
A. That i s cor r ect.9
DR. LUKACS: Let s mar k i t as Exhi bi t 3.10
EXHIBIT NO. 3: At t achment t o t he emai l dated March11
19, 2014 12: 58 PM, f r om Pat r i ce Bel l er ose to Dr .12
Gabor Lukacs, at t achment 121 pages.13
DR. LUKACS:1438. Q. Do you agr ee t hat t he f i l e cont ai ns no cl ai m15
f or conf i dent i al i t y by any of t he par t i es?16
A. Yes.17
39. Q. Do you agr ee t hat t he f i l e cont ai ns no18
det er mi nat i on by the Agency concer ni ng conf i dent i al19
t r eat ment of any of t he document s or port i ons of document s20
i n t he f i l e?21
A. Sor r y. Can you r epeat t hat ?22
40. Q. Do you agr ee t hat t he f i l e cont ai ns no23
det er mi nat i on by the Agency concer ni ng conf i dent i al24
t r eat ment of any of t he document s or por t i ons of25
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documents?1
A. No.2
41. Q. You don t agr ee or . . . ?3
A. No. Ther e i s per sonal i nf or mat i on t hat i s4
cont ai ned i n t he document s t hat t he Agency determi nes as5
conf i dent i al .6
42. Q. Can you r ef er me t o - - My quest i on i s: I s7
t her e - - i n t he f i l e i s t her e a deci si on, or der or any8
ot her deci si on by t he Agency st at i ng t hat cer t ai n9
document s or port i ons of document wi l l be t r eat ed10
conf i dent i al l y?11
A. The Pr i vacy Act r equi r es t hat we r emove12
per sonal i nf or mat i on f r om Agency r ecor ds.13
43. Q. I am sor r y. I di dn t ask you about t he14Pr i vacy Act . I asked you about t hose 121 pages.15
A. Yes ther e cont ai ns per sonal i nf or mat i on i n16
t hose 121 pages.17
44. Q. That i s not my quest i on.18
MR. LESSARD: Can you pl ease ref ormul ate Dr .19
Lukacs?20
DR. LUKACS: Sur e.21
45. Q. Among t hose 121 pages i s t her e any document ,22
any di r ect i ve, deci si on, order made by a member or member s23
of t he Agency di r ect i ng t hat any of t hese document s be24
t r eat ed conf i dent i al l y?25
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A. No.1
46. Q. Thank you. Do you agr ee wi t h me t hat some of2
t he pages wer e par t i al l y bl acked out ?3
A. Yes.4
47. Q. Who deci ded whi ch part s t o bl ack out ?5
A. Mysel f i n col l abor at i on wi t h var i ous st af f6
members of t he Agency.7
48. Q. How was i t deci ded whi ch part s t o bl ack out ?8
A. Per sonal i nf or mat i on was r emoved. That ' s al l .9
49. Q. Al l per sonal i nf or mat i on?10
A. No, onl y per sonal i nf or mat i on t hat was not11
di vul ged i n t he deci si on.12
50. Q. Under what l egal aut hor i t y was t he bl ackened13
out s per f ormed?14A. The Pr i vacy Act .15
51. Q. So under t he Pr i vacy Act ar e you t el l i ng me16
t hat you have t he aut hor i t y t o deci de whi ch par t s of an17
Agency adj udi cat i ve document wi l l be rel eased?18
A. Under t he Pr i vacy Act we ar e obl i gat ed t o19
r emove per sonal i nf or mat i on f r omgover nment r ecor ds pr i or20
t o r el easi ng t hem.21
52. Q. Now l et s l ook at page 75. I t was a l et t er22
f r om Ai r Canada t o t he secret ar y of t he Agency dat ed23
Oct ober 18t h, 2013, cor r ect ?24
A. Cor r ect .25
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53. Q. Do you agr ee t hat t he name, t hat t he busi ness1
emai l addr ess and t he si gnat ur e of Ai r Canada s counsel2
wer e bl acked out on page 75?3
A. Yes.4
54. Q. Do you agr ee t hat t he name, t he busi ness emai l5
addr ess and t he si gnatur e of Ai r Canada s counsel were6
bl acked out t hr oughout t he f i l e?7
A. I woul d have t o l ook t hr ough t he pages - -8
55. Q. Take your t i me.9
A. - - t hr ough t he 121 pages t o ver i f y t hat but10
t hey shoul d be. I t s possi bl e we made an er r or but11
gener al l y yes t hey shoul d be.12
56. Q. So you say t hat t hose t hi ngs shoul d have been13
bl acked out i n your opi ni on?14A. Thei r cont act i nf or mat i on as wel l as t hei r15
emai l s.16
57. Q. Even t hough we are t al ki ng about work emai l17
address, not home ones?18
A. We have had var i ous consul t at i ons wi t h ai r19
i ndust r y and di f f er ent i ndust r i es at t he Agency and20
dependi ng on whet her a number i s publ i shed, a work number21
i s publ i shed or not , determi nes whether somet i mes t he22
i nf or mat i on i s publ i c or not . Somet i mes i nf or mat i on i s23
avai l abl e publ i cal l y; somet i mes i t ' s not . So i n t hose24
cases more of t en t han not we er r on t he si de of caut i on25
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and i f t he number i sn t publ i shed - - somet i mes i t i s a1
gener al number , f or exampl e. I f i t i s a gener al l i ne2
obvi ousl y we i ncl ude t hat t ype of i nf or mat i on.3
58. Q. So j ust t o be cl ear , you made t hi s deci si on or4
deci ded what t hi ngs t o redact i n consul t at i on al so wi t h5
t he ai r l i ne i ndust r y. I s t hat cor r ect , what you j ust6
ear l i er sai d?7
A. On pr evi ous f i l es. That ' s not j ust ai r but8
di f f er ent t r anspor t at i on modes. They have i ndi cat ed t hat9
t her e ar e cert ai n number s t hat ar e pur posel y not publ i shed10
f or peopl e t hat wor k i n busi nesses and t hat t hey keep11
t hose - - t hat i nf or mat i on pr ot ect ed f or var i ous r easons12
and t hat t hey woul d l i ke i t not t o be di vul ged.13
59. Q. So i n t he case of Ai r Canada, Ai r Canada s14l awyer s, t he counsel act i ng on t he f i l e, t he name of t he15
counsel , t he busi ness emai l addr ess wer e bl acked out16
pur suant t o t hi s r equest f r om t he i ndust r y, f r om Ai r17
Canada speci f i cal l y?18
A. Based on consul t at i ons we have pr evi ousl y had19
wi t h i ndust r y t hi s was - -20
60. Q. But i n t hi s speci f i c f i l e was t her e any21
r equest f r om Ai r Canada t o have t hei r i nf or mat i on r edact ed22
i n thi s speci f i c f i l e?23
A. We di dn t consul t t hem on t hi s speci f i c f i l e24
because i t was i nf ormal and we j ust went wi t h accor di ng t o25
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t he usual personal i nf ormat i on exempt i ons t hat we had so1
t hat we coul d get you t he f i l e i n a t i mel y f ashi on.2
61. Q. Let s go al so t o page 68 of t hi s f i l e,3
act ual l y 67, Annex G. Thi s was an exhi bi t f i l ed by Ai r4
Canada, cor r ect ?5
A. That i s cor r ect.6
62. Q. What I am seei ng here on pages 68, 69 and 707
i s t hat vi r t ual l y t he ent i r e pages wer e bl acked out ,8
correct?9
A. Cor r ect .10
63. Q. Why i s t hat ?11
A. Because t hey cont ai ned PNR detai l s whi ch have12
per sonal i nf or mat i on cont ai ned wi t hi n t hem.13
64. Q. Al l PNR i nf or mat i on i s per sonal i nf or mat i on?14A. Par don me?15
65. Q. Al l PNR i nf or mat i on i s per sonal i nf or mat i on?16
A. Not necessar i l y. Cer t ai n par t s ar e. I t17
cont ai ns al l of t he i nf or mat i on r el at i ng t o t he passenger18
ai r t r avel .19
66. Q. I sn t t hat t he i ssue bef or e t he Agency, t he20
passenger s t r avel ?21
A. Sur e, but t he det ai l s of t hei r t r avel ar en t22
r eal l y r el evant . I f t hey ar e t hey have been i ncl uded i n23
t he deci si on and t he i nf or mat i on i s r el eased.24
67. Q. Ar e you f ami l i ar wi t h t he not i on of open cour t25
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pr i nci pl e?1
A. I am.2
68. Q. Di d you r ecei ve any t r ai ni ng concer ni ng t he3
not i on of open cour t pr i nci pl e?4
A. Yes.5
69. Q. Ar e you aware of any r el at i onshi p between t he6
open cour t pr i nci pl e and sect i on 2( b) of t he Char t er ?7
MR. LESSARD: For t he r ecor d, I wi l l obj ect t o t he8
quest i on because of r el evance and t he f act agai n t hat you9
ar e aski ng an opi ni on f r om a wi t ness who i s not a par t y i n10
t hi s case. However Madame Bel l erose wi l l answer subj ect11
t o t he r i ght t o have t he pr opr i et y of t he quest i on12
det er mi ned by t he cour t at a l ater dat e. *13
THE WI TNESS: Sorr y. Can you r epeat t he quest i on?14DR. LUKACS:15
70. Q. My quest i on was: Ar e you aware of any16
r el at i onshi p bet ween t he open cour t pr i nci pl e and sect i on17
2( b) of t he Char t er ?18
A. Yes.19
71. Q. Do you know i f t he Agency i s subj ect t o t he20
open cour t pr i nci pl e?21
A. Yes.22
72. Q. Ar e you awar e of any pol i ci es or r ul es of t he23
CTA t hat ar e i n pl ace f or t he pur pose of compl i ance wi t h24
t he open cour t pr i nci pl e?25
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t he open cour t pr i nci pl e wer e handl ed as i nf or mal access1
r equest s?2
A. That ' s cor r ect . And act ual l y I shoul d3
el aborate on my pr evi ous answer . There were some r equest s4
f or i nf or mat i on wher e cl ai ms f or conf i dent i al i t y had been5
made on cer t ai n cases, so t hat i nf or mat i on was al so6
r emoved i n t hose cases.7
78. Q. That i s obvi ous. That i s not an i ssue i n t hi s8
case. Al l r i ght ; l et s l ook at page 79 of t he same9
document . J ust f or cl ar i t y woul d you car e t o r ead i nt o10
t he r ecor d t he t wo t i t l es and t he f i r st t wo par agr aphs,11
pl ease?12
A. I mport ant pr i vacy i nf ormat i on and Open Cour t13
Pr i nci pl e"1479. Q. And t he f i r st t wo par agr aph?15
A. As a quasi - j udi ci al t r i bunal oper at i ng l i ke a16
cour t , t he Canadi an Transpor t at i on Agency i s bound by the17
const i t ut i onal l y pr ot ected open- cour t pr i nci pl e. Thi s18
pr i nci pl e guar ant ees t he publ i c s r i ght t o know how19
j ust i ce i s admi ni st er ed and t o have access t o deci si ons20
r ender ed by admi ni st r at i ve t r i bunal s. Pur suant t o t he21
Gener al Rul es, al l i nf or mat i on f i l ed wi t h t he Agency22
becomes par t of t he publ i c r ecor d and may be made23
avai l abl e f or publ i c vi ewi ng.24
80. Q. Okay, so what does publ i c r ecord mean here?25
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A. I t means i t ' s avai l abl e f or publ i c vi ewi ng.1
I t ' s avai l abl e t o t he publ i c.2
81. Q. So any document pl aced on publ i c r ecor d t he3
publ i c can access. Woul d i t be f ai r t o say t hat ?4
A. As l ong as i t i s f i l ed wi t h t he Agency and i n5
r espect t o a pr oceedi ng.6
82. Q. So are you t el l i ng me t hat i f somebody wal ks7
i n t he door of t he Agency and says hi , I want t o see f i l e8
number so- and- so t hen t hey can l ook at al l document s on9
t he publ i c r ecor d?10
A. Wel l t hey have t o be - - we have t o r emove11
per sonal i nf or mat i on f r om t hem pr i or t o vi ewi ng.12
83. Q. But I don t under st and r eal l y. You say t hat13
al l document s ar e pl aced on publ i c r ecor d. You j ust sai d14t hat al l document s on publ i c recor d can be vi ewed. Then15
wher e does t hi s Act of r emoval f i t i nt o t hat not i on of16
publ i c r ecor d?17
A. I am sor r y. Can you r epeat that ?18
84. Q. You j ust sai d t hat document s f i l ed wi t h t he19
Agency ar e pl aced on publ i c r ecor d, cor r ect ?20
A. Cor r ect .21
85. Q. You al so sai d t hat document s on publ i c r ecor d22
can be vi ewed by the publ i c.23
A. Cor r ect .24
86. Q. Where does r edact i on come i nt o t hi s whol e25
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pr ocedur e t hen? The Agency s own i nf ormat i on sheet j ust1
says t hat t hose t hi ngs may be vi ewed by the publ i c.2
A. They may be vi ewed by t he publ i c but t he3
per sonal i nf or mat i on t hat i s cont ai ned wi t hi n t hose4
document s i s r emoved pr i or t o vi ewi ng.5
87. Q. So l et s back- t r ace. What do you mean t hen by6
t he not i on "publ i c r ecor d" , because my under st andi ng of7
publ i c r ecor d i s t hat publ i c r ecor d i s a document t hat t he8
publ i c can vi ew? Do you agr ee wi t h t hat?9
A. Yes.10
88. Q. So what you are t el l i ng me here i s t hat you go11
and r emove personal i nf ormat i on f r om document s whi ch are12
al r eady on publ i c r ecor d?13
A. We r emove personal i nf ormat i on f r omAgency14r ecor ds pr i or t o di scl osi ng t hem t o t he publ i c, yes.15
89. Q. Doesn t publ i c r ecor d mean t hat t he publ i c can16
access t hose document s?17
A. They are accessi ng t he document s. They are18
j ust not access i ng t he per sonal i nf or mat i on t hat i s19
cont ai ned wi t hi n t hem. The publ i c has a r i ght t o20
t r anspar ency whi ch i s t he pur pose of what we ar e doi ng21
because of t he open cour t pr i nci pl e but t he i ndi vi dual22
al so has a r i ght t o pr i vacy.23
DR. LUKACS: Let s mark as Exhi bi t 4 Rul e 23 of24
t he Agency, of t he Gener al Rul es.25
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THE WI TNESS: Sorr y, Rul e 23? Okay, we don t have1
t he Gener al Rul es wi t h us but I bel i eve you ar e t al ki ng - -2
DR. LUKACS: I bel i eve i t was pr i nt ed out .3
THE WI TNESS: I t i s t he par t wher e i t t al ks about4
t he conf i dent i al i t y of r ecor ds and t hat al l document s wi l l5
be pl aced on t he publ i c r ecor d unl ess a cl ai m f or6
conf i dent i al i t y i s made?7
DR. LUKACS: That ' s r i ght .8
THE WI TNESS: Okay.9
EXHIBIT NO. 4: Canadi an Tr anspor t at i on Agency10
Gener al Rul es, Rul e No. 23.11
DR. LUKACS:12
90. Q. So you have al r eady r ef er r ed t o i t and I13
woul d pr ef er t o have i t i n f r ont of you.14MR. LESSARD: I j ust gave i t t o her .15
THE WI TNESS: Thi s i s onl y a por t i on of t he16
Gener al Rul es. Ther e ar e ot her t hi ngs that come i nt o17
pl ay. We onl y have a port i on here t o t al k about but okay18
l et ' s - -19
DR. LUKACS:20
91. Q. Whi ch por t i on do you have t her e because my21
under st andi ng i s t hat Rul e 23 i n i t s ent i r et y shoul d be22
bef ore you?23
A. Rul e 23 i s her e.24
92. Q. Yes. I s t her e any ot her Rul e i n t he Gener al25
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Rul es t hat gover n conf i dent i al i t y?1
A. Yes, t her e i s anot her r ul e f ur t her t hat t al ks2
about t he Agency can deem cer t ai n r ecor ds conf i dent i al .3
Unf or t unat el y I don t have t he rul es wi t h me t o i dent i f y4
t hat f or you. I apol ogi ze.5
93. Q. You ar e r ef er r i ng t o f i nanci al or cor por at e6
i nf or mat i on. I s that t he Rul e t hat you ar e r ef er r i ng t o?7
A. Yes.8
94. Q. But we ar e t al ki ng her e about per sonal9
i nf or mat i on not - -10
A. That s r i ght .11
95. Q. So can you expl ai n t o me somet hi ng?12
A. Sur e.13
96. Q. Rul e 23 has an el abor at e conf i dent i al i t y14pr ocedur e.15
A. That i s cor r ect.16
97. Q. A par t y who doesn t want some i nf ormat i on t o17
be r el eased t o t he publ i c can r equest conf i dent i al i t y,18
correct?19
A. That i s cor r ect.20
98. Q. And i f t he r equest i s gr ant ed t hen a r edact ed21
copy of t he document i s pl aced on t he publ i c r ecor d.22
A. That ' s cor r ect.23
99. Q. So deci di ng what t o r edact and what i sn t ,24
i sn t t hat t he j ob of t he members of t he Agency accordi ng25
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t o Rul e 23?1
MR. LESSARD: For t he r ecor d, I wi l l obj ect t o t he2
quest i on because agai n i t i s a quest i on of r el evance and3
you ar e aski ng f or an opi ni on or an admi ssi on f r om t he4
wi t ness. However Madame Bel l erose wi l l answer subj ect t o5
t he r i ght t o have t he pr opr i et y of t he quest i on det er mi ned6
by t he cour t at a l at er dat e. *7
THE WI TNESS: The Agency i s subj ect t o t he Pr i vacy8
Act and so f or t hat r eason t hat i s why the per sonal9
i nf or mat i on i s r edact ed.10
DR. LUKACS:11
100. Q. You are not answer i ng my quest i on. My12
quest i on was: I sn t i t t he dut y of member s and t he13
r esponsi bi l i t y of member s hear i ng t he case t o det er mi ne14pur suant t o Rul e 23 what por t i ons wi l l be redact ed and15
what por t i ons won t ?16
A. I n a cl ai m f or conf i dent i al i t y, yes .17
101. Q. So i f no cl ai m f or conf i dent i al i t y i s made al l18
document s ar e pl aced on t he publ i c r ecor d, cor r ect ?19
A. Wi t h t he personal i nf or mat i on r emoved.20
102. Q. Can you poi nt t o me at anyt hi ng i n t he General21
Rul es t hat r equi r es t he r emoval of per sonal i nf or mat i on?22
A. The Agency i s subj ect t o t he Pr i vacy Act .23
That ' s what r equi r es us t o r emove t he per sonal24
i nf or mat i on.25
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103. Q. My quest i on was: Can you poi nt t o me at1
somet hi ng i n t he Gener al Rul es t hat r equi r es t he removal2
of per sonal i nf or mat i on, i n t he Gener al Rul es?3
A. I n t he Gener al Rul es, no.4
104. Q. No. The Gener al Rul es r equi r e t hat al l5
document s wi t h r espect t o whi ch conf i dent i al i t y has not6
been cl ai med be pl aced on publ i c r ecor d, cor r ect ?7
A. Thi s i s cor r ect .8
105. Q. And what you ar e t el l i ng me i s t hat af t er a9
document i s pl aced on publ i c r ecor d you go i n and r edact10
thi ngs f r om i t .11
A. We don t r edact t hi ngs. We r edact per sonal12
i nf or mat i on t hat i s r equi r ed under t he Pr i vacy Act whi ch13
i s anot her l egi sl at i on t o whi ch we ar e r equi r ed t o compl y.14106. Q. I am sorr y. I am aski ng you now about t he15
f act s, not about t he l aw, f or t he l aw wi l l be f or t he16
cour t t o deci de. My quest i on i s: When you have a f i l e17
whi ch cont ai ns no cl ai m f or conf i dent i al i t y whi ch we have18
agr eed i s pl aced on publ i c r ecor d, cor r ect ?19
A. Cor r ect .20
107. Q. And t hen when t he publ i c want s t o access t he21
f i l e you go i n and r edact a por t i on of i t . I s t hat22
correct?23
A. We r emove - - no, not a por t i on. We r emove24
per sonal i nf or mat i on.25
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108. Q. I s per sonal i nf or mat i on not a por t i on of t he1
document ?2
A. I guess vaguel y, yes.3
109. Q. I t i s cont ai ned i n t he document . So t o4
summar i ze even when a document i s pl aced on publ i c r ecord5
pur suant t o Rul e 23 you r edact f ur t her por t i ons f r om i t6
bef or e r el easi ng i t t o t he publ i c, cor r ect ?7
A. Cor r ect . I t hi nk i t i s i mpor t ant t o cl ar i f y8
t hat i t i s per sonal i nf or mat i on t hat i s r emoved.9
"Por t i ons" i sn t r eal l y cl ear . I t i s i mpor t ant t o10
di st i ngui sh t hat i t i s per sonal i nf or mat i on onl y t hat i s11
r emoved.12
110. Q. Thi ngs t hat you deem t o be per sonal13
i nf or mat i on.14A. Thi ngs t hat ar e def i ned i n t he Act as per sonal15
i nf or mat i on.16
111. Q. But you pur port t o maki ng t hose deci si ons what17
t o r edact or not , we j ust hear d ear l i er , cor r ect ?18
A. I i nt er pr et t he Act , i s that what you ar e19
aski ng?20
112. Q. What I amaski ng i s: Once t he document i s21
pl aced on publ i c r ecor d and the Agency - - as a member of22
t he Agency di d not see a r eason t o gr ant conf i dent i al i t y- -23
A. Or i f t her e was no r equest .24
113. Q. Or i f t her e was no r equest .25
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A. That ' s r i ght .1
114. Q. Then you go and make some deci si ons as t o what2
t o r edact f r om t he f i l e bef or e i t i s r el eased t o t he3
publ i c, cor r ect?4
A. Per sonal i nf or mat i on i s r emoved, t hat i s5
cor r ect .6
115. Q. And you deci de what wi l l be r emoved and what7
not ?8
A. I per sonal l y deci de or - -9
116. Q. Yes.10
A. - i s t her e an appr oval pr ocess?11
117. Q. What can you t el l me about t hat appr oval12
pr ocess?13
A. Sur e. Gener al l y speaki ng i t depends on - -14wi t h i nf or mal r equest s gener al l y we t ake car e of t hem i n15
our of f i ce. Somet i mes we consul t wi t h l egal servi ces and16
dependi ng on t he f i l e i t i s possi bl e t hat i t can go t o t he17
chai r who i s t he del egat ed head f or access t o i nf or mat i on18
and pr i vacy at t he Agency.19
DR. LUKACS: I guess I have no more quest i ons.20
Thank you.21
22
23
- - THI S CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON ADJ OURNED AT 11: 07 A. M. ON24
THE 21ST DAY OF AUGUST, 2014.25
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1
2
WE HEREBY CERTI FY THAT t he f oregoi ng was t r anscr i bed3
t o t he best of our ski l l and abi l i t y, f rom di gi t al l y4
r ecor ded pr oceedi ngs.5
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .6
G R S / B M P7