1 0 , 5 0 1 .
RUMPFF J; Not n e c e s s a r i l y . 1
KENNEDY J; I t may "be wrongly based.
MR. FISCHER; Something l i k e t h o s e pleaded, my
l o r d s . May I r e f e r your l o r d s h i p s t o lH ! , "By e x p l o i t i n g
the l o c a l gr ievances of t h e i r members, such as gr ievances
i n connection v/ith bus f a r e s , r e n t s , housing, unemploy- 5
ment of n a t i v e s i n shops i n predominantly n a t i v e l o c a l i t i e s ,
w i t h . t h e ob jec t of obtaining t h e i r support f o r the a c h i e v e -
ment and implementation of i t s p o l i c y " . Now, t h i s was never
i n my submission thought of - i t was never i n the Crown's
mind as being a gr ievance which was being e x p l o i t e d , and 10
the Crown does not now seek t o prove a gr ievance being
e x p l o i t e d . I t seeks t o prove that the speakers were
l i a r s , were us ing t h e i r i n v e n t i v e powers t o c r e a t e h o s t i -
l i t i e s ^ which i s an e n t i r e l y d i f f e r e n t c a s e .
RUMPFF J; W e l l , assume t h a t the e v i d e n c e about 15
r e n t s had been u n s p e c i f i e d by one or two speakers at meet-
i n g s , suggest ing to the audience that a c e r t a i n rent had
been increased t o a c e r t a i n amount; that had been s a i d
on a number of o c c a s i o n s , and the Crown a l s o sought t o
prove on that p a r t i c u l a r i s s u e t h a t i n f a c t there was 20
never such an i n c r e a s e i n r e n t , and t o prove circumstances
- that the speakers knew t h a t , or ought t o have kncwn that -
MR. FISCHER; Because i t ' s not an i s s u e on the
Indictment, my l o r d . I t ' s simply outside of the I n d i c t -
ment a l t o g e t h e r . 25
RUMPFF J; But the i s s u e , whether i t was ex-
p l o i t e d or not may depend on whether the speaker b e l i e v e d
i t or not - h i s mental s t a t e of e x p l o i t a t i o n . . .
KENNEDY Ji May not a d e l i b e r a t e misrepresen-
t a t i o n amount t o e x p l o i t a t i o n ? 30
1 0 , 5 0 2 .
MR. FISCHERs My l o r d , e i t h e r there i s e x p l o i t a -
t i o n or there i s n ' t , and that i s i r r e s p e c t i v e of the s t a t e
of mind - e n t i r e l y i r r e s p e c t i v e of the s t a t e of mind of
the speaker. I f the s p e a k e r ' s mind can be made r e l e v a n t -
that i s t o say a s t a t e of mind i n which the speaker wishes
to l i e , i f i t can be made re levant then i t must be made
r e l e v a n t on the Indictment and i n t h e P a r t i c u l a r s . I t ' s
not part and p a r c e l of the h o s t i l e i n t e n t which has been
pleaded wi th regard to Treason. H o s t i l e i n t e n t i s t o
enter i n t o an agreement w i t h the other c o n s p i r a t o r s t o
overthrow the S t a t e .
RUMPFF J ; But i h regard t o e x p l o i t a t i o n , Mr.
F i s c h e r , we have heard the evidence brought a l s o by cross
examination of Crown w i t n e s s e s , t h a t f o r i n s t a n c e the
A.N.C. was the o r g a n i s a t i o n which i n t e r e s t e d i t s e l f i n
the problems of the A f r i c a n s , t h e i r own problems.
MR. FISCHER; That i s s o , my l o r d .
RUMPFF Js Now a p a r t i c u l a r speech about rent
might be a p e r f e c t l y bona f i d e speech i n the i n t e r e s t s
of the o r g a n i s a t i o n qua o r g a n i s a t i o n looking a f t e r the
i n t e r e s t s of the A f r i c a n s , aida speech concerning the
audience, as members who are i n t e r e s t e d i n the question
of r e n t . Then t h a t speech as such may be a p e r f e c t l y
bona f i d e speech, i t has nothing t o do with High Treason
or an u l t e r i o r motive, i f I may put i t that way. But
i f the Crown seeks t o br ing evidence about a speech
concerning r e n t , which according to the evidence i s a
matter which conerns the A.N.C. and i t s members and
A f r i c a n s g e n e r a l l y - r e n t i n the l o c a t i o n s f o r i n s t a n c e ,
and i t seeks t o prove t h a t the speaker as a member of
10 ,503 .
the A.N.C. f a l s e l y accused the a u t h o r i t i e s of having ra ised
the r e n t , i s n ' t the Crown then t r y i n g t o show t h a t i t has
not? The t o p i c of r e n t was explo i ted w i t h gr ievance - rent
as a t o p i c was e x p o i t e d . I t was not a t a l l a bona f i d e meet
i n g , or a "bona f i d e d i s c u s s i o n of t h e t o p i c . I t was an
e x p l o i t a t i o n because he w i l f u l l y misrepresented the f a c t ,
and f o r t h a t reason the Crown says ' I say t h i s i s e x p l o i t a -
t i o n ; i f I don't l ead that evidence i t ' s no e x p l o i t a t i o n 1 .
•I have dozens of meetings where there was a mere discus -
s ion of r e n t s ; I 'm not concerned w i t h t h o s e , I 'm concerned
w i t h my a l l e g a t i o n of an e x p l o i t a t i o n , and I say t h a t he
e x p l o i t e d that because he had a c e r t a i n s t a t e of mind and
h i s s t a t e of mind i s t o be i n f e r r e d from the f a c t that
he was misrepresent ing the c a s e ' . ' T h a t ' s the only
evidence that I h a v e ' , s a y s the Crown ' o f t h i s man's s t a t e
of mind! He's d e a l i n g w i t h a t o p i c which i s an innocent
t o p i c .
MR. F E C I j E R ; My l o r d s , w i t h r e s p e c t . . . .
RUMPPF Js Must the Crown then have said i n
i t s P a r t i c u l a r s ftnd by e x p l o i t a t i o n I mean, i n t e r a l i a ,
the m i s r e p r e s e n t a t i o n of f a c t " ?
MR. FISCHER: Y e s , my l o r d , wi th r e s p e c t because
e x p l o i t a t i o n means making use of - - i t does not mean
misrepresent ing , i t does not mean l y i n g , one cannot i n
ordinary E n g l i s h be s a i d t o e x p l o i t a s i t u a t i o n by l y i n g
about i t . I f I e x p l o i t a s i t u a t i o n I use t h a t s i t u a t i o n .
In other words, i f rents have been r a i s e d , and i n s t e a d
of r emaining s i l e n t on the point whenev®1 I make a speech,
I r e p e a t e d l y come back t o the quest ion of r e n t s , then I
am e x p l o i t i n g the r i s e i n rents i n order t o do p r e c i s e l y
what the Crown says at page 68, "by e x p l o i t i n g l o c a l
1 0 , 5 0 4 .
l o c a l gr ievances of t h e i r members w i t h the o b j e c t of ob-
t a i n i n g t h e i r support1! Now, my l o r d s , t h a t being the
s p e a k e r ' s o b j e c t , the quest ion i s not whether he b e l i e v e d
what he s a i d , whether he doubted what he s a i d , or whether
he knew what he sa id was untrue. I t i s us ing something
t o g a i n support . That i s , i n my submission, the meaning
of the word e x p l o i t a t i o n used i n t h i s c o n t e x t . Just
imagine, my l o r d s , the s u r p r i s e w i t h which the Defence
i n a c i v i l case would f i n d i t s e l f faced i f d e a l i n g w i t h
the word e x p l o i t , the a l l e g a t i o n t h a t t h a t person e x -
p l o i t e d something, had t o deal w i t h a case of f raudulent
m i s r e p r e s e n t a t i o n , that on such and such a day the said
A when i n f a c t he knew t h a t i t was B.
BEKKF,E J ; Do you suggest t h a t the use of t h e
word e x p l o i t a t i o n goes no f u r t h e r than the word used.
MR. FISCHER; Used w i t h a purpose . . i t cannot
i n c l u d e an a l l e g a t i o n t h a t one of the speakers , accused
No.25 say - t h a t on the 4th A p r i l , 1954, he s a i d A , B
C, when he w e l l khew i t to be u n t r u e , and t h a t the t r u t h
was X, Y , Z , and t h a t 9 my l o r d , i s p r e c i s e l y how t h i s
case has "been conducted f o r the past s i x months. There
has been no suggest ion of a speaker saying something and
meaning something e l s e , and the opening which t h i s would
g i v e would be enormous f o r an e n t i r e l y d i f f e r e n t approach,
but may I j u s t complete t h i s p i c t u r e , my l o r d s , and r e -
f e r your l o r d s h i p s j u s t by way of i l l u s t r a t i o n t o a
p o r t i o n of the P o l i c y Schedule . Any port ion would serve
but I'm r e f e r r i n g t o paragraph C ( l ) on page 29. "The
A,ET.C. f u r t h e r implemented i t s p o l i c y of making use of
extra-Par l iamentary u n c o n s t i t u t i o n a l and i l l e g a l a c t i o n
by organis ing and p a r t i c i i a t i n g i n c e r t a i n campaigns
1 0 , 5 0 5 .
a g a i n s t c e r t a i n l a w s , and by i n c i t i n g and encouraging t h e
n a t i v e populat ion t o i l l e g a l and v i o l e n t r e s i s t a n c e on a
mass s c a l e a g a i n s t the a d m i n i s t r a t i o n and enforcement of
the laws . " And then i t deals w i t h the Acts and s a y s ;
"The f a c t that the said campaigns were intended by the
A.N.C. t o i n v o l v e v i o l e n c e , i s i n f e r r e d from the f o l l o w -
i n g ; and there are the speeches." Now, i t ' s never said
t o be i n f e r r e d from the f a c t that the speaker t o l d an un-
t r u t h . That i s e n t i r e l y absent from t h i s c a s e .
BEKKER J; I 'm not v e r y w e l l acquainted w i t h
the Indictment at t h i s s t a g e , Mr. F i s c h e r . On the ques-
t i o n of h o s t i l e i n t e n t , were P a r t i c u l a r s asked f o r and
suppl ied?
MR. FISCHER; My l o r d , on the quest ion of v i o l -
ence they were.
BEKKER J; H o s t i l e i n t e n t ? Was the Crown ask-
ed for p a r t i c u l a r s on which i t would seek t o j u s t i f y the
a l l e g a t i o n of h o s t i l e i n t e n t ?
MR. FISCHER; Ho, my l o r d , i t w a s n ' t . The
matter was r a i s e d on the f i r s t Indictment, but i t was
not r a i s e d a t a l l on the second. I t was l e f t at l a r g e
of course .
BEKKER J ; Have you completed your argument
on the overt a c t s as pleaded, e x c l u d i n g t h i s e v i d e n c e ?
Because I want to put t o you on the quest ion of h o s t i l e
i n t e n t , whether t h i s evidence i s admiss ib le?
MR. FISCHER; TOLL, I th ink I ' v e covered e v e r y -
t h i n g I wished t o s a y , my l o r d . The b a s i c contention
being that t h i s was- never pleaded as a means.
BE KIKE R J; Yes , I ' v e got that argument.
1 0 , 5 0 6 .
MR. FISCHER % And that when i t comes t o a x
Summary of Facts i t ' s never suggested, e i t h e r i n the
Summary or i n the P o l i c y Schedule that i t was part of
the means and methods employed t o t e l l untruths . The
nearest t h a t one can get to t h a t i s by means of the word
" e x p l o i t " , and t h a t I s a y , my l o r d s , we cannot be faced ^
w i t h a t t h i s s t a g e .
BEKKER J: How does t h i s evidence stand to be
excluded under the t o p i c " h o s t i l e i n t e n t " ?
MR. FISCHER; The h o s t i l e intent i s a h o s t i l e
i n t e n t which i s s e t out i n A and B ( l ) and B (4) ( b ) . Now,
my l o r d , the h o s t i l e i n t e n t i n the f i r s t instance i s the
h o s t i l e i n t e n t pleaded, namely the h o s t i l e i n t e n t t o enter
i n t o t h i s c o n s p i r a c y .
BEKKER Js W e l l , i s n ' t the h o s t i l e i n t e n t 15
in 1 terms of the Indictment at tached t o each and every
aocused, i n part A of the Indictment?
MR. FISCHERs YES, that i 3 s o , my l o r d ;
" a c t i n g i n concert and i n common purpose and with, h o s t i l e
i n t e n t a g a i n s t the S t a t e , namely t o subvert and overthrow,
d is turb or impair , t h e y d id , ( a ) d is turb and impair or
endanger the e x i s t e n c e , or a c t i v e l y prepare t o s u b v e r t . . . "
BEKKER Js Would i t be c o r r e c t t o construe
t h a t part of the Indictment i n the f o l l o w i n g f a s h i o n ,
"each and every one of the accused had a p a r t i c u l a r h o s -
t i l e i n t e n t " ? 2 5
MR. FISCHER; Y e s , but i n r e l a t i o n t o the
overt a c t , that i s e n t e r i n g i n t o the conspiracy and the
Schedule *C' nothing e l s e , my l o r d .
RTJMPFF J; That would i n c l u d e the means; 30
1 0 , 5 0 7 .
i t would br ing i n the means?
MR. FISCHER: No, my l o r d , they are not t h e
overt a c t s , hut be t h a t as i t may, my l o r d , what i s not
a l l e g e d anywhere , as part of the h o s t i l e i n t e n t , i s the
h o s t i l e i n t e n t t o l i e .
BEKKER Js Don't you i n f e r the h o s t i l e i n t e n t
from the f a c t of l y i n g , r a t h e r than the h o s t i l e i n t e n t
on the b a s i s you put i t ? My r e a l d i f f i c u l t y , I ' l l put
i t t h i s way, Mr. F i s h e r , i a t h i s : a man makes a speech,
MR. FISCHER; T h a t ' s not an overt a c t , my l o r d .
BEKKER J; I don' t know whether i t i s or i s n ' t ;
at the moment I'm on the quest ion of h o s t i l e i n t e n t . An
accused person makes a speech and he s a y s , "Two A f r i c a n s
were shot by the p o l i c e because of a pot of p a i n t " ; the
quest ion i s , whether when he spoke that he was bona f i d e
or not because i f he w a s n ' t bona f i d e one would say "Now
why did you t e l l them t h a t " . Now, i f the i a s u e turna on
hia bona f i d e s , i n order t o e s t a b l i s h whether or not he
could have b e l i e v e d t h a t , the f i r s t f a c t I would imagine
i s to present evidence to prove the t r u t h , what i n f a c t
i a the t r u t h , because without knowing the t r u t h you
are not i n a p o a i t i o n to judge whether or not h e ' a bona
f i d e . I f , however, you know t h a t what he aaid v a r i e d
deom the t r u t h , then you can embark on f u r t h e r e n q u i r i e a .
Now, i a n ' t the p o s i t i o n here t h i s : the Crown has a l leged
that these people had a p a r t i c u l a r i n t e n t - everyone of
them; assuming an accused person i s found t o have made
t h i s p a r t i c u l a r speech, and i n the l i g h t of the true s e t
of f a c t a he cannot aupply an adequate reaaon as t o why he
s a i d i t , would one not be i n c l i n e d t o say "Y/ell , t h i s may
J
}
1 0 , 5 0 8 .
have a bear ing on the man's i n t e n t i o n at the t i m e " . i
MR. FISCHER: May I t r y and dea l w i t h t h a t , my
l o r d ? I f your l o r d s h i p looks again at page 29 of the
P o l i c y Schedule , your l o r d s h i p w i l l see t h a t t h a t ' s an
i l l u s t r a t i o n of w h a t ' s been done i n each c a s e . The f a c t
that the campaign was intended t o involve v i o l e n c e i s to ^
be i n f e r r e d from and I am j u s t summarising the
making by Sibande of a speech on the 7th March, and the
speech i s set out, l i n e so and so t o so and so; now,
t h a t , my l o r d , does not e n t i t l e the Crown t o h o s t i l e i n -
t e n t . . w e l l , l e t me l e a v e h o s t i l e i n t e n t out of t h i s ^q
f o r the moment, my l o r d , because t h i s i s not an overt
a c t . Indeed, my l o r d , s t r i c t l y speaking your l o r d s h i p s
suggest ion r e l a t e s only t o overt a c t s because those are
the a c t s done with h o s t i l e i n t e n t . This a c t here i s done
w i t h the i n t e n t i o n of making t h i s campaign v i o l e n t ; t h a t 15
i s the e i l e g a t i o n . . . . . .
BEKKER J; I 'm not concerned f o r the moment with
the overt a c t ; I'm concerned w i t h the man's s t a t e of mind,
a h o s t i l e i n t e n t . Did he or did he not have a h o s t i l e i n -
t e n t ? 20
MR. FISCHERs Yes , my l o r d , but the h o s t i l e i n -
t e n t , the s t a t e of mind, to overthrow the S t a t e , i s r e l e -
vant t o the overt a c t . .
BEKKER J; No doubt, q u i t e r i g h t . .
MR. FISCHER; Even the Crown pleads a s t a t e 25
of mind, a d i f f e r e n t s t a t e of mind i n r e l a t i o n t o a
speech which intended t o e x p l o i t a gr ievance to- gain
support , or intended t o encourage v i o l e n c e i n t h i s
campaign, or whatever i t may be . . 30
1 0 , 5 0 9 .
RUMPFF J; But i f the Crown says there are overt 1
a c t s , and i t g ives p a r t i c u l a r s about the c o n s p i r a c y , de-
t a i l s of what i t a l l e g e s i t t o b e , but i t l e a v e s the h o s -
t i l e i n t e n t i n the a i r , as such, i s i t e n t i t l e d , or i s i t
not e n t i t l e d t o lead evidence from which such i n t e n t may
be i n f e r r e d - - apart from overt ac ts? 5
MR. FISCHERs Yes , my l o r d , wi th regard to ax
overt a c t i t i s e n t i t l e d t o lead such evidence as i t may
have of h o s t i l e i n t e n t . . .
RUMPFF J; Apart from the overt a c t i t s e l f ?
MR. FISCHERs Yes , my l o r d . Your l o r d s h i p 10
asks me apart from the a c t ?
RUMPFF J; Yes.
MR. FISCHERs My l o r d , I go t h i s l e n g t h to say
i t depends - - i t might v e r y w e l l depend on the p l e a d i n g . . .
RUMPFF Js T h a t ' s why I put the p o s i t i o n , t h a t 15
there are no p a r t i c u l a r s i n connection w i t h the h o s t i l e
i n t e n t .
MR. FISCHER; No, there a r e n ' t , my l o r d , but
there are p a r t i c u l a r s wi th regard t o t h i s speech and
every other speech, and the p a r t i c u l a r s charge "You, 20
accused No. so-and-so , encouraged a campaign by making
t h i s speech" . "You encouraged people t o f o l l o w you by
making t h i s speech. You encouraged race hatred by making
t h i s speech."
RUMPFF Js The overt act every t ime. . . 25
MR. FISCHER: No, my l o r d , t h i s i s i n the
P o l i c y Schedule , because we are not dea l ing with the
overt a c t s .
MR. TRENGJyE: My l o r d s , I must c o r r e c t my
learned friend t h e r e . The P o l i c y Schedule deals w i t h that 50
1 0 , 5 1 0 .
p o r t i o n of the overt a c t r e l a t i n g t o the c o n s p i r a c y , and
the Defence wanted the evidence from which we i n f e r that
there was a conspiracy to overthrow the S t a t e by v i o l e n c e ,
and the P o l i c y Schedule r e l a t e s s o l e l y and e n t i r e l y t o
the overt act of conspir ing t o overthrow the S t a t e by
v i o l e n c e .
RUMPFF Ji To the f a c t s from which the Crown
seeks t o i n f e r the conspiracy?
MR. TRENG«^E; The c o n s p i r a c y , my l o r d , y e s .
MR. FISCHERs That i s s o , my l o r d . These are
the f a c t s from which the i n f e r e n c e i s to be dram , these
are not the overt a c t s ; the overt a c t s i s the conspi-
racy and the matter i s pleaded i n the Indictment.
RUMPFF J; The speeches.
MR. FISCHERs In Schedule "C" , my l o r d ,
RUMPFF Js Yes , w e l l , t h i s speech i s one of t he
overt a c t s , I take i t , - - i t may be , . I don ' t know.
MR. H SCHER; Maybe one, p o s s i b l y d i f f e r e n t
c o n s i d e r a t i o n s apply to t h a t , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J: But i f that i s so, then the Crown
had not bound i t s e l f by p a r t i c u l a r s i n regard - from
which i t seeks t o i n f e r the h o s t i l e i n t e n t i n regard t o
t h i s p a r t i c u l a r speech, apart from the conspiracy .
MR. FISCHER-. Ho, my l o r d . I t seeks - as I
understand i t - t o ask your l o r d s h i p s t o hold that an
accused making a p a r t i c u l a r speech intended t o s t i r up
h a t r e d , because he l i e d - your l o r d s h i p s are asked t o
draw the i n f e r e n c e of an i n t e n t i o n t o hate from the f a c t
that he l i e d , otherwise t h e r e ' s no purpose . . . .
BEKKER Js He exhorts the audience t o develop a
sense of hatred by means of a l i e .
J 1 0 , 5 1 1 .
MR. FISCHER; That i s s o , my l o r d . Now, that
v e r y phrase, 'by means of a l i e ' i s c l e a r l y excluded from
every scrap of paper i n these p l e a d i n g s .
BEKKER J ; But assuming such a speech i s proved
would i t be permiss ib le to ask the accused 'Why did you
l i e ' ?
MR. FISCHER; Yes , and you would have t o accept
h i s answer.
BEKKER J; Yes .
MR. FISCHER; One would f i r s t have t o ask him i f
he l i e d , i n e f f e c t .
RUMPFF J; I s your answer not t h a t the conspiracy
governs the overt a c t ? The Crown has a l l e g e d that there
i s a conspiracy and i n pursuance of the conspiracy the
overt a c t s have been comitted, and i n regard t o the con-
s p i r a c y which governs the overt a c t s the Crown has given
i t s p a r t i c u l a r s . . .
MR a FISCHER; That i s so , my l o r d , and a l l th^t
i s to be i n f e r r e d from t h i s mass of p a r t i c u l a r s . Now,
the massof p a r t i c u l a r s does not inc lude anywhere a sug-
g e s t i o n t h a t the means employed, or the speeches from
which an i n f e r e n c e i s t o be made, c o n t a i n e d l i e s .
RUMPFF J; I s the Crown excluded i n regard t o
a s p e c i f i c overt a c t , say a speech, i s i t excluded on
the Indictment and the P a r t i c u l a r s as they s tand, from
l e a d i n g evidence f r o m which an i n t e n t of a p a r t i c u l a r
speech a t a meeting could be i n f e r r e d ? I f s o , why?
MR. FISCHER; In an overt a c t , my l o r d ,
that i s the act of Treason i t s e l f , the Crown may be at
l a r g e on the q u e s t i o n of i n t e n t ; i t may be assumed
that the accused must meet any form of evidence w hich
10
15
20
25
30
J 1 0 , 5 1 2 .
would demonstrate h i s i n t e n t , i n performing the v e r y a c t s
Of Treason, but when one seeks t o draw an i n f e r e n c e of a
conspiracy from c e r t a i n speeches then one must draw the
i n f e r e n c e from the speeches pleaded, and may I t r y and
put i t t h i s way, my lords., The only way i n which the
Crcwn can then plead t h a t i s t o say 'You must draw an
i n f e r e n c e from wha- the accused s a i d , or from an innuendo
on what he s a i d ' . In other words, you can s a y , t h a t
the Crown can lead evidence t o the e f f e c t t h a t the accused
said 'You must use v i o l e n c e ' , or i t can lead evidence
that the accused said 'You must use the language of the
b e e r h a l l ' ; that i s innuendo; but whether the accused
l i e d , or did not l i e , i s i r r e l e v a n t t o the quest ion as
to whether from t h a t speech one can draw an i n f e r e n c e ,
because the i n f e r e n c e t h a t the Court i s asked t o draw
from that i s that they entered i n t o a c o n s p i r a c y w i t h
h o s t i l e i n t e n t . T h a t ' s why, my l o r d s , thee may be a
d i f f e r e n c e between the overt act i n •'"his case and the
speech which was included i n any one of these - i n the
summary or i n the p o l i c y schedule . I donct know t h a t
I can take i t much f u r t h e r than t h i s , my l o r d s , than to
say again t h a t what the pleadings say i s t h a t the Court
must l o o k at these speechex - - the words used by these
men, these speakers - - i t doesn ' t s a y that you must
seek t o draw aa i n f e r e n c e from the motive with which a
man made h i s speech; from the honesty or dishonesty of
i t ; that would have bee n a separate c a s e , i t would
probably have had t o be included i n B (4) (b) as an
e ighth means, as another term i n the c o n s p i r a c y , but
even i f i t were not included there i t would c e r t a i n l y
10
15
20
25
30
1 0 , 5 1 3 .
have t o "be included i n the Summary, and i n the P o l i c y Sche-
d u l e ,
RUMPFF J; Are there any overt a c t s ?
MR. FISCHERi I don ' t know, my l o r d s , i f there are
any overt a c t s because my learned f r i e n d h a s n ' t infomed us
except i n the most genera l terms of those speeches and
speakers , and he apprent ly wants t o . . . . .
BEKKER J; And the other p o s s i b l e ground, that
t h i s c a s t s l i g h t on what the speaker was r e f e r r i n g t o ,
•two A f r i c a n s were shot becais e of a pot of p a i n t ' , would
not t h i s evidence be admiss ib le t o e x p l a i n what he was
a l l u d i n g t o ?
MR. FISCHER: My l o r d , i f i t were a quest ion
of vocabulary .and my learned f r iend h a s n ' t put i t on that
b a s i s , t h e n , of c o u r s e , I c o u l d n ' t o b j e c t . I f a speaker
said " W e l l , I want everybody t o remember the t i n of p a i n t ;
we w i l l stand s i l e n t f o r two minutes" , t h e r e c l e a r l y i s
the use of an e x p r e s s i o n , as there was the use of the e x -
p r e s s i o n , b e e r i i a l l language, but where the speaker him-
s e l f proceeds 1 o e x p l a i n what the t i n of paint i s , that
the t i n of paint wan the beginning of the r i o t , then
there i s no need f o r t l i i r Court t o go i n t o a l e n g t h y
hearing on what occurred t h e r e . I t d o e s n ' t e x p l a i n an
obscure or ambiguous phrase„
RUMPFF J ; Mr. F i s c h e r , my d i f f i c u l t y f a l l s
under the A part of your argument, and that i s the pro-
motion of f e e l i n g s of d i s c o n t e n t , h o s t i l i t y between the
v a r i o u s s e c t i o n s . That i s s a i d to be , by the Crown, one
of the means agreed upon during the c o n s p i r a c y .
MR. FISCHERs Y e s , my l o r d .
1 0 , 5 1 4
RUMPFF J : That a l l e g a t i o n does not br ing any-
s p e c i f i c overt act i n t o t h i s group, does i t ?
MR. FISCHER; W e l l , my l o r d
RUMPFF J : Except t h a t i t may be i n f e r r e d from
c e r t a i n overt a c t s . Presumably i t does , where the overt
a c t s a ie^iven from which . . . .
MR. FISCHER; There are no overt a c t s attached
t o t h a t , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J; There a r e , t h a t i s 5 , 'promoting f e e l -
i n g s of d i s c o n t e n t or unrestand hatred or h o s t i l i t y b e -
tween the v a r i o u s s e c t i o n s ' .
MR. FISCHER; Y e s .
RUMPFF J; The Crown here assumes a duty t o
prove the c r e a t i o n of h o s t i l i t y between r a c e s . I f the
evidence by the Crown i s - led a l r e a d y by the Crown, that
the A.N.C. i s an o r g a n i s a t i o n which looks a f t e r the i n -
t e r e s t s o f t h e A f r i c a n s g e n e r a l l y , and t h e i r treatment by
the A u t h o r i t i e s and t h e i r treatment by the P o l i c e , then I
take i t a statement by a speaker at a neet ing that c e r t a i n
A f r i c a n s had been shot by the P o l i c e , may on t h i s evidence
not at a l l be a s tatement c r e a t i n g - made f o r the purpose
of c r e a t i n g h o s t i l i t i e s * I t may be a genuine s ta tement
c o n c e r n i n g t h e i n t e r e s t s of both p a r t i e s , the o r g a n i s a t i o n
and the audience . Now i f a speaker i s a l l e g e d t o have
said that a c e r t a i n number of Afr icanshave been shot and
he makes that statement - assume he s a y s t h a t twenty have
beai shot - and he does t h a t f o r purposes of making t h a t
statement to the audience as a member of the A.N.C. but
i t i s proved by the Crown t h a t one was s h o t , not 20f t o
the knowledge of t he speaker , then the C rown might seek
t o put a c e r t a i n i n f e r e n c e on t h a t ?
10
15
20
25
30
1 0 , 5 1 5
MR. FISCHER; Yes , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J; In other words, the question of t he
i n t e n t of the speaker t o c r e a t e h o s t i l i t y depends upon h i e
s t a t e of mind and h i s knowledge, and b e f o r e the Crown can
ask the Court to i n f e r from a p a r t i c u l a r speech t h a t the 5
speaker intended t o create h o s t i l i t y , having regard t o
what I sa id about t h e A.NoC. ' s o b j e c t s , b e f o r e the Crown
v can do i t , i t must l a y the b a s i s t o br ing i t out of the
c l a s s of communication concerning the bona f i d e i n t e r e s t s .
Now i f t h a t i s s o , why c a n ' t the Crown lead t h i s evidence? 10 MR. F35CHER: My l o r d , our submission i s t h a t
that i s not s o because that f a l l s outside of these p l e a d -
i n g s . Take t h i s paragraph, Roman V, my l o r d , the one your
l o r d s h i p i s r e f e r r i n g t o . . . .
RUMPFF J; Before you go on, t h i s paragraph V 15
"promotes f e e l i n g s of d i s c o n t e n t " ; how i s that l i n k e d up
wi th overt a c t s ? In the r e s t of the p l e a d i n g s . Was there
a quest ion concerning t h i s paragraph V - p a r t i c u l a r s of
which the Crown seeks t o „ . „ 0
MR. FISCHER; In the f i r s t i n s t a n c e , my l o r d , 20 paragraph V i s a p o r t i o n of t h e c o n s p i r a c y , one of the means
agreed upon, to f u r t h e r the conspiracy to overthrow by
v i o l e n c e . And t h a t i s the conspiracy which contains the
h o s t i l e i n t e n t , t o overthrow by v i o l e n c e .
RUMPF J; Now how i s t h i s l i n k e d up? In 25
other words - I m merely t r y i n g t o f i n d out, i s t h e Crown
l i m i t e d ?
MR. FISCHER; Each one of t h e s e i s attached i n
Schedule 'C f t o the overt a c t s . Schedule »CI conta ins the
overt a c t s , being speeches , and your lordships w i l l remember 30
1 0 , 5 1 6 .
t h a t the l a s t column - t h e r e ' s the name of the speaker ,
the meeting, the words, and then the l a s t column i s said
to be as f o l l o w s ; 'With r e f e r e n c e t o paragraph B ( 4 ) of
Part B of t h e Indictment , the p a r t i c u l a r means which the
speech was intended t o f u r t h e r or carry i n t o e f f e c t " .
Each one of t h e overt ac ts then i s r e l a t e d t o one of the
paragraphs, one or more of t he paragraphs of 4 ( b ) , except
f o r the l a s t two, which have no overt a c t s .
RUMPFF J; So the Crown has r e f e r r e d t o c e r t a i n
speeches which g ive r i s e t o t h e i r a l l e g a t i o n • . .
MR r. F IS CHER i FROM which one i s t o i n f e r .
RU1VPFF J; And t h e y say t h i s speech g i v e s
r i s e t o V. They have s e t out „ . .
MR, FISCHER; The speech s e t out g i v e s r i s e
t o one of these paragraphs i n IV*
RUMPFF sJ° And what speeches are there r e -
f e r r e d t o ?
MR, FISCHER$ What spee ches?
RUIvIPFF J ; Yes. Are any of t h e speeches r e -
f e r r e d t o that Mr. Trengove mentioned t h i s morning?
MR, FISCHER2 I don ' t know, my l o r d . Perhaps
my learned f r i e n d could t e l l u s . That i s why, my l o r d ,
I ' v e been addressing your l o r d s h i p s , on the b a s i s t h a t
these are not overt a c t s , and on the b a s i s t h e r e f o r e that
a l l t h a t has beei pleaded i s the summary of f a c t s plus
the p o l i c y s c h e d u l e , i n which i t i s said that from the
making of these speeches you must i n f e r the c o n s p i r a c y .
RUMPFF Js Yes. So the p o s i t i o n i s then that
i n regard t o tub-paragraph V of 4 ( b ) , the Crown has sup-
pl ied the Defence w i t h a number of speeches on which i t
r e l i e s f o r t h e i r case under V?
1 0 , 5 1 7 .
MR. FISCHER; No, my l o r d ; t h e s e . . .
RUMPFF J ; I thought the schedule mentioned t h a t .
MR. FISCHER; The p o l i c y schedule?
RUMPFF J : Yes .
MR. FISCHER; T h a t ' s not Schedule ' C ' , my l o r d . 5
Schedule 'C ' are the speeches which are r e l i e d on i n the
f i r s t i n s t a n c e , and these are the overt a c t s , but p o l i c y
•C1 - the one which was suppl ied as a r e s u l t of your
l o r d s h i p s ' *>rder, "the Crown t o g i v e the p a r t i c u l a r s
from which v i o l e n c e i s t o he proved. V i o l e n c e being the 10 essence .
RUMPFF J; W e l l , i s V q u a l i f i e d , or i s the Crown
a t l i b e r t y t o lead evidence ooncerning the a l l e g a t i o n i n
4 (b) V? MR. FISCHER; No, i t ' s n o t , w i t h r e s p e c t , my l o r d .
15
Thr Crown i s bound by i t s Further P a r t i c u l a r s .
RUMPFF J ; How does anything i n the Summary of
Pacts l i m i t V?
MR. FISCHER W e l l , my l o r d , i n the f i r s t i n -
s t a n c e , of c o u r s e , V i s l i m i t e d by Schedule C. 20
RUMPFF J; In what way?
MR. FISCHER; In pursuance, i n fur therance -
t h i s i s part C of t he Indictment, my l o r d ; " I n pursuance
a id fur therance of the said conspiracy , more p a r t i c u l a r l y
as part of t h e a c t of preparat ion f o r the v i o l e n t over- 25
throw of the S t a t e , the accused with h o s t i l e i n t e n t did
during a c e r t a i n period proceed t o c e r t a i n meetings which
were convened" , and those are the meetings s e t out i n
Schedule C. RUMPFF J: Yes , but V i s s a i d t o contain a means
30
J 1 0 , 5 1 8 .
agreed upon. I t ' s p a r t of t he agreement. 1
MR. FISCHERs Yes one of the means agreed.
RUMPFF Hs How I'm not concerned with what t h e y
did i n pursuance of thatmeais , i n pursuance of the con-
s p i r a c y ; t h i s i s an a l l e g a t i o n of t h e c o n s p i r a c y , part R
of the conspiracy ; we are now on the c o n s p i r a c y . w
MR. FISCHER; That i s so.
RUMPFF Js Hot on a c t s committed i n pursuance
of the conspiracy . There may h e , because the conspiracy
I take i t i s t o be drawn a l s o according t o the C rown
from the overt a c t s , but we are dea l ing here wi th the
agreement and the terms. One of the terms of the agree-
ment was - - the agree ment of the accused and others -
that t h e y would c r e a t e h o s t i l i t y between the v a r i o u s
s e c t i o n s of the p o p u l a t i o n . How, i n order to prove t h i s 15
term of t h e c o n s p i r a c y , i s the Crown bound by any
p a r t i c u l a r p a r t i c u l a r s by . . .
MR. FISCHER; With r e s p e c t , y e s , my l o r d , i t
i s bound by the Summary of F a c t s . As I showed your l o r d -
ships . . . 20 RUMPFF J; I t says that the agreement i s to
b e i n f e r r e d from the Summary of F a c t s . Now, how does t t e
Summary of F a c t s r e l a t e t o V.
MR. FISCHER? The two r e l e v a n t paragraphs
appear t o us to be paragraph 9(a) and 9 ( h ) , my l o r d , 25
at pages 59 and 68. "Each of the a foresa id o r g a n i s a -
t i o n s sought i n advance t o implement i t s p o l i c y a f o r e -
said ( a ) by convening and holding meetings a nd making
speeches" . Your l o r d s h i p s must teear i n mind that the
i n t r o d u c t o r y paragraph t o the Summary says 'The Crown 30 intends t o prove the e x i s t e n c e of the conspiracy s e t
1 0 , 5 1 9 .
f o r t h i n part B by way of an i n f e r e n c e from these f a c t s .
RUMPFF J : That would inc lude the terms.
MR. FISCHER; That i n c l u d e s the terms, y e s , my
l o r d . So i f one i s going t o look a t speeches one looks
then at 9 ( a ) f , l t h e y convened the meetings and made the
speeches , "
RUMPFF J; And are the speeches then l i m i t e d ?
Or s p e c i f i e d ?
MR. FISCHER; I 'm not q u i t e c e r t a i n hQv i t now
works. I f your l o r d s h i p s w i l l al low me one minute. Y e s ,
my l o r d s , I d i d n ' t readthe whole of 9 ( a ) , "By convening
and holding meetings throughout the Union of South A f r i c a
a t which meetings one or more of t h e o b j e c t s enumerated
i n 8(a) above, by the means s e t f o r t h i n paragraph 8(c)
was d i r e c t l y or i n d i r e c t l y encouraged, propagated or
advocated, p a r t i c u l a r s of the said meetings are s e t out
i n Schedule 1 attached h e r e t o " . That was the very l a r g e
schedule with the whole l o t of t h e speeches, my l o r d s ,
RUMPFF J; Very w e l l .
MR. FISCHER ; Now i t ' s confined t o that a nd
the a l l e g a t i o n i s the making of that speech, so one l o o k s
at the words . . .
RUMPFF J; Then i t says "The promotion of h o s -
t i l i t y i s to be i n f e r r e d from a number of speeches? I
g i v e you the speeches" „
MR. FISCHER; Now t h a t ' s the promotion of hos-
t i l i t y , my l o r d , and not the h o s t i l i t y i n the speaker .
RUMPFF J; Promotion of h o s t i l i t y , y e s . I s
that s e t out p - you 've r e f e r r e d t o Schedule 1 - - i s
t h i s meeting which Mr. TrengOve has r e f e r r e d t o s e t out
i n t h a t schedule?
1 0 , 5 2 0 .
MR. FISCHER; I t must b e , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J: Then the Crown r e l i e s , as we are
now showing, i n order t o e s t a b l i s h 4(b) (V) i n t e r a l i a ,
on t h i s speech, or t h i s meeting, the speeches at t h i s
meeting?
MR. FISCHER: From the speech, amongst other
t h i n g s , one must i n f e r . . •
RUMPFF J : What are the other th ings?
MR. FISCHER: The documents, my l o r d , t h e . . . ,
BEKKER J: Do you suggest t h a t apart from the
s t a t e of mind of t h e speaker which i s i r r e l e v a n t , you've
got t o l o o k at what he s a i d i n order t o answer the ques-
t i o n yea or nay, did he promote h o s t i l i t y or not . *
MR. FISCHER: T h a t ' s what the Crown has pleaded
my l o r d .
BEKKER J: You suggest h i s s t a t e of mind i a
i r r e l e v a n t ?
MR. FISCHER: Y e s , my l o r d .
BEKKER J: Because y o u ' r e confined t o the words?
MR. FISCHER: Y e s , my l o r d . May I suggest
that one can t e s t i t i n another way. ^he could have
said "by making the f o l l o w i n g speeches and furthermore
by t e l l i n g the f o l l o w i n g l i e s " , or what would have been
presumably the l i n e which the Crown would have fol lowed
i f i t had had t h i s i n mind a t the time i t p leaded, i t
wculd have s a i d : " ^ne of the means was the mis leading of
audiences" , but i n s t e a d of t h a t i t has sa id "You must
i n f e r the conapiracy from the making of the apeech" .
BEKKER J: What'a the exact phraaeology?
MR. FISCHER: "Promoting f e e l i n g a of d iacon-
tent or unreat amongat, andhatred or h o s t i l i t y between
10,521.
the v a r i o u s s e c t i o n s and r a c e s of the populat ion of the
Union of South A f r i c a , f o r the purposes of tie u l t i m a t e
v i o l e n t overthrow "
BEKKER J; And the Summary of P a c t s c ircum-
s c r i b e s how that took p l a c e .
MR. FISCHERs Y e s , my l o r d . . . . c i r c u m s c r i b e d
13® m a t e r i a l from which one can make an i n f e r e n c e ,
RUMPFF J: Whether the man had a h o s t i l e i n t e n t
or was l y i n g or . . .
MR. FISCHERs That i s so^ my l o r d . And your
l o r d s h i p s w i l l see t h a t i t i s a mat ter of s u b s t a n c e . In
the c a s e , as we see i t , i n "the Indic tment , i t i s - the
words t o be looked a t , the s p e e c h e s , the documents; a v e r y
much more e l a b o r a t e case could have been drawn presumably
i n which one would have i n f e r r e d something, a h o s t i l e i n -
t e n t , from the f a c t that speakers employed u n t r u t h s . Now
the only s u g g e s t i o n which my learned f r i e n d can make t h a t
t h a t i s i n f a c t pleaded here i s by us ing the word e x p l o i -
t a t i o n , and saying t h a t that i n c l u d e s e x p l o i t i n g by f a l s e
means, by means of f a l s e h o o d s . Indeed i t goes f u r t h e r ,
because our c o n t e n t i o n i s t h a t you don ' t e x p l o i t a g r i e v -
ance when you l i e about i t . You e x p l o i t a g r i e v a n c e when
you use the gr ievance i n ordinary l a n g u a g e . Now the two
t y p e s of c o n s p i r a c y are d i f f e r e n t . ^ e i s advocat ing
v i o l e n c e , the other one i s poisoning men's minds by un-
t r u t h s , which i s r e a l l y an e n t i r e l y d i f f e r e n t c o n s p i r a c y ,
and while I r e a l i s e my learned f r i e n d i s l i m i t i n g t h i s t o
two matters they may be t h a t they are important m a t t e r s ,
but they a r e i n our submission outside of the p l e a d i n g s .
9 ( a ) then, my l o r d s , p o i n t s c l e a r l y t o the f a c t t h a t i t
i s the making of t h e speech and 9 (h) does not c r e a t e an
i 10,522.
e x c e p t i o n i n f a v o u r of the Crown e n t i t l i n g i t t o open up 1
a whole new f i e l d of i n v e s t i g a t i o n i n which each One of
the r e p o r t e r s may have t o be c r o s s examined on whether the
speaker appeared t o be bona f i d e or n o t . Now your l o r d -
ships w i l l r e a l i s e t h a t nowhere i n the l a s t s i x months c
has the case been conducted on the b a s i s of asking t h e
r e p o r t e r s e i t h e r by the Crovm, "Could you see the speaker
w i t h h i s tongue i n h i s cheek" or by us asking "Could you
see the speaker did not have h i s tongue i n h i s cheek" .
RUMPFF J: Thst i s not r e a l l y a m a t e r i a l q u e s t i o n ,
but what you could have asked i s , what was the genera l
b e l i e f of a c e r t a i n grisrance, t h e o r i g i n of a c e r t a i n
g r i e v a n c e .
MR. FISCHER; Your l o r d s h i p w i l l remember t h a t
on one or two occasions I did ask t h a t q u e s t i o n from peo- 15
p i e who seemed t o know the c o n d i t i o n s , as t o whether
people did g e n u i n e l y b e l i e v e . But i t ' s a f a r cry from
t h e r e , t o s a y i n g t h a t w i t n e s s e s have j u s t f a i l e d t o t e s -
t i f y what might be a v i t a l matter i n t h i s Indictment , i f
i t were i n t e r p r e t e d t o i n c l u d e the s t a t e of mind of the 20 s p e a k e r , not v i s - a - v i s the S t a t e , not i n r e l a t i o n t o
overthrowing the S t a t e , but i n r e l a t i o n t o speaking the
t r u t h or speaking the u n t r u t h .
RUMPFF J; You say t h a t on the f i r s t ground,
apart from the e x p l o i t a t i o n , t h a t what the Crown has 25
i n d i c a t e d i s t h a t i n the P a r t i c u l a r s i t r e l i e s on the
terms of the speech?
MR. FISCHER; Y e s . In other words, my l o r d ,
t h i s i s a case which i s concerned w i t h i n f e r r i n g a con-
s p i r a c y from what was sa id and w r i t t e n , and not from what 30 was i n the minds of the speakers or t h e w r i t e r s . I t ' s
1
V Lo ,523 •
t r u e , my l o r d s , t h a t i t may v e r y w e l l be p o s s i b l e i n the
c o r r e c t c ircumstances t o prove the c o n s p i r a c y by shewing
what was i n the minds of people; one might be able t o
e s t a b l i s h a conspiracy i f you shewed that t e n men c o n s i s t e n t -
l y l i e d about a p a r t i c u l a r f a c t , or about a p a r t i c u l a r s e t 5
of f a c t s . I f , f o r i n s t a n c e , the Congress speakers c o n -
s i s t e n t l y went about s a y i n g that i t was the Government's
i n t e n t i o n t o t a k e away the f i r s t born from each f a m i l y • .
RUMPFF J; You 're t h i n k i n g back a l o n g way.
MR. FISCHER; W e l l , there i s an i l l u s t r a t i o n , my 10 l o r d , where one might w e l l shew t h a t those speakers knew
p e r f e c t l y w e l l t h a t t h a t was not t o be done, but because
t h e y a l l did i t t h e r e f o r e there must have been a c o n s p i r a c y .
Now t h a t would be a conspiracy based on what was the s t a t e
Of mind of the s p e a k e r , and p r o p e r l y pleaded there could be 15
no o b j e c t i o n t o i t . That i s not the c o n s p i r a c y h e r e , and
i t ' s on t h a t matter t h a t we have r a i s e d t h i s m a t t e r , my
l o r d , and taken up some time of the C o u r t ' s time . .
RUMPFF J: I 'm a f r a i d we w i l l have t o hear Mr.
TrengOve on t h i s . 20 MR. TRMG^E? I ' d be v e r y pleased i f your
l o r d s h i p s would al low me an opportuni ty . My l o r d s , . . .
RUMPFF J; W i l l you s t a r t o f f w i t h A , the
promotion of r a c c i a l h o s t i l i t y . . . MR. TRENGOVEs Y e s , my l o r d .
25
RUMPFF J; Now, i s i t c o r r e c t t h a t sub-
paragraph ( v ) i s l i n k e d of n e c e s s i t y with t h e Summary
of F a c t s ? And t h a t the speeches are t h e r e r e f e r r e d t o ?
MR. TRENGOVE; Y e s , my l o r f l . In order t o
get the sequence of the p leadings c o r r e c t l y , my l o r d ,
1 0 , 5 2 4 .
may I s t a r t wi th Part A of the Indictment?
RUMPFF J; Yes .
MR. TRENG^VE; Now, part A of the Indictment,
my l o r d s , s e t f o r t h in no uncerta in language t h a t every
accused had a c e r t a i n s t a t e of mine, a h o s t i l e i n t e n t ,
and, my l o r d s , whether the overt a c t i s the conspiracy
Or whether i t i s the making of a speech or at tending
the Congress of the People , Or the p u b l i c a t i o n of a docu-
ment, that h o s t i l e s t a t e of mind must have been present
at the time when the person committed the Overt act a l -
l e g e d . I f he did not have the h o s t i l e i n t e n t at the
time when he committed the Overt a c t i t would not be an
overt a c t . Therefore we preface a l l the a c t s a l l e g e d
a g a i n s t the accused, a l l those a c t s we prefaced by
saying that they were committed through a s t a t e of
mine, and t h a t s t a t e of mind, my l o r d s , i s the charge
of Treason - t h e whole b a s i s of the Crown's c a s e .
Now we were never at any s tage r e q u i r e d , n e i t h e r on the
f i r s t occasion or subsequently , we were never asked t o
give the f a c t s from which we i n f e r i n respect of each
accused, the h o s t i l e s t a t e of m i n d .
RUMPFF J; N3, but your Indictment took the
shape of an a l l e g a t i o n of a c o n s p i r a c y , ' t o overthrow'
and i n pursuance of that conspiracy overt a c t .
MR. TRENGvVE: Yes , my l o r d , but we say that
when the persons conspired they conspired with the
h o s t i l e s t a t e of mind.
RUMPFF J: Yes .
MR. TRENGQVE: SO that we are a t l a r g e j
. drawing the i n f e r e n c e of the h o s t i l e s t a t e of
mind from a l l the f a c t s w h i c h are a d m i s s i b l e a g a i n s t
1
10
J 1 0 , 5 2 5 .
the p a r t i c u l a r accused. The Crown has l e d evidence
of meet ings, very o f t e n not r e f e r r e d to i n t h a t sche-
dule 1 , because i t i s a t l a r g e in r e s p e c t of a p a r -
t i c u l a r accused to show what h i s s t a t e of mind was.
Now, on t h a t b a s i s , my l o r d s , a l o n e , a p a r t from any-
t h i n g e l s e , we are e n t i t l e d to show t h a t an accused
made a c e r t a i n speech; we are e n t i t l e d to show what
the t rue f a c t s are and we are e n t i t l e d to ask your
l o r d s h i p s to i n f e r from t h a t something about h i s s t a t e
of mind.
BEKKER J; On the whole form of your I n d i c t -
ment, are you not l i m i t e d to draw the i n f e r e n c e of
h o s t i l e s t a t e of mind by the P a r t i c u l a r s you suppl ied?
MR. TRENGOVE: No, my l o r d .
BEKKER J; Why do you say t h a t ?
MR. TRENGOVE: Because , my l o r d , we were not 1 5
asked to supply P a r t i c u l a r s as to h i s s t a t e o f mind.
We were asked to supply P a r t i c u l a r s in r e s p e c t of overt
q c t s o n l y , and, my l o r d s . . .
RUMPFF J: Y e s , but on the c o n s p i r a c y as such
you say t h a t t h e r e i s in your Indictment a c o n s p i r a c y
to overthrow the S t a t e w i t h h o s t i l e i n t e n t .
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J: Then you p a r t i c u l a r i s e on what you
r e l y , you p a r t i c u l a r i s e .
MR. TRENGOVE: On the c o n s p i r a c y , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J: Y e s . You say t h a t p a r t of the
c o n s p i r a c y was t h a t ' t h e o b j e c t s would be determined
from time to t ime' .
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s , my l o r d . But , my l o r d s ,
may I put i t t h i s way
20
25
30
10,526.
10
RUMPFF J; Then I think l a t e r on, when i t
comes to Further P a r t i c u l a r s , you say t h a t t h i s con-
s p i r a c y t o overthrow the S t a t e w i t h v i o l e n c e - in other
words the c o n s p i r a c y w i t h t h i s h o s t i l e i n t e n t , i s to
he d e r i v e d from c e r t a i n p a r t i c u l a r s .
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s , my l o r d . . . . not in
r e l a t i o n to a p a r t i c u l a r a c c u s e d , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J: Why not?
MR. TRENGOVE: We say take accused X, my
loj*d; we say t h a t a p a r t from accused X t h e r e was a
c o n s p i r a c y to overthrow the S t a t e by v i o l e n c e ; a
c o n s p i r a c y e x i s t e d to overthrow the S t a t e by v i o l e n c e .
Now we say accused X, w i t h a c e r t a i n h o s t i l e i n t e n t ,
j o i n e d t h a t c o n s p i r a c y .
RUMPFF J: I th ink you are now t r y i n g to g e t l g
out of your form of I n d i c t m e n t . . .
MR. TRENGOVE: No, my l o r d s .
RUMPFF J: You have a l l e g e d the c o n s p i r a c y , and
y o u ' v e a l l e g e d t h a t i t l a s t e d over a p e r i o d and t h a t
the accused j o i n e d , and then you d e a l w i t h t h a t con- 20
s p i r a c y as a s i n g l e e n t i t y ; a p a r t from the time a t
which each accused e n t e r e d or l e f t , you g i v e the
P a r t i c u l a r s of the c o n s p i r a c y over t h a t p e r i o d .
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J: The c o n s p i r a c y . Then you say t h a t 25
t h a t c o n s p i r a c y to which he j o i n e d f i r s t of a l l i s to
b e i n f e r r e d from c e r t a i n f a c t s . Have you s e t out
a g a i n s t any s i n g l e accused p a r t i c u l a r f a c t s on which
you r e l y ?
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s , ray l o r d . 30
J 1 0 , 5 2 7 .
RUMPFF J: Which you say does not g i v e r i s e to -1
the c o n s p i r a c y but only h o s t i l e i n t e n t .
MR. TRENGOVE; We were not asked about h i s hos-
t i l e i n t e n t , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J; Wel l , have you s e t out anything of
t h a t nature? I d o n ' t think s o . 5
MR. TRENGOVE; My l o r d s , we were asked to g ive
the f a c t s from which we i n f e r r e d in h i s case that he
jo ined the c o n s p i r a c y .
RUMPFF J; Y e s , t h a t y o u ' v e g i v e n .
MR. TRENGOVE; Y e s , we gave those fects, but we 1 0
were not asked to g i v e the f a c t s from which we i n f e r
h i s h o s t i l e s t a t e of mind in j o i n i n g the c o n s p i r a c y .
My l o r d , may I put i t t h i s way? I may want to overthrow
the S t a t e . I n d t h a t s t a t e of mind may be true to
15
e x i s t p r i o r to my j o i n i n g the c o n s p i r a c y . I may have
a c e r t a i n s t a t e of mind. Because I have t h a t s t a t e of
mind and because I had become aware of the e x i s t e n c e
of a c o n s p i r a c y to overthrow the S t a t e , I then jo ined
t h a t c o n s p i r a c y ! t h a t c o n s p i r a c y , and the f a c t of my 20
j o i n i n g , would probably a l s o prove my s t a t e of mind,
b u t I may be a b l e to prove my s t a t e of mind i r r e s p e c -
t i v e of my p a r t i c i p a t i o n in any c o n s p i r a c y to overthrow
the S t a t e . But I must show t h a t when I jo ined t h a t
c o n s p i r a c y I then had a s t a t e of mind to overthrow the 25
S t a t e .
RUMPFF J; Then, a p a r t from the information
which y o u ' v e g i v e n , you say t h a t you are a t l i b e r t y
to c a l l any type of evidence concerning any p a r t i c u l a r
a c c u s e d ' s s t a t e of mine? 30
jr
1 0 , 5 2 8 .
MR, TRENGOVE; Y e s , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J: Which might be r e l e v a n t to the t r i a l .
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J; W e l l , I thought that when you s t a r t e d ,
a f t e r a l l the argument, t h a t we were t r y i n g to c o n f i n e
the c a s e to such l i m i t s t h a t the accused knew what the
case was a g a i n s t them.
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s , my l o r d , we were c o n f i n i n g
J t to the informat ion t h a t was required by the Defence ,
and on my learned f r i e n d ' s own statement t h i s morning
they never asked us to g ive them the f a c t s from which
the h o s t i l e i n t e n t was i n f e r r e d .
RUMPFF J: I s t h a t now the h o s t i l e i n t e n t when
he jo ined?
MR. TRENGOVE: The h o s t i l e i n t e n t in committing
o v e r t a c t s .
RUMPFF J: In committing o v e r t a c t s ? ' *
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s , my l o r d , and one of the
o v e r t a c t s he committed was to j o i n the c o n s p i r a c y .
RUMPFF J: I thought the Grown case was t h a t
t h e r e was a c o n s p i r a c y and in pursuance - i t says -
of t h a t c o n s p i r a c y , o v e r t a c t s were committed.
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s , but the j o i n i n g of the
c o n s p i r a c y - t h a t was the f i r s t o v e r t a c t , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J: The c o n s p i r a c y , y e s .
MR. TRENGOVE: No, the j o i n i n g of the con-
s p i r a c y .
RUMPFF J: That i s the c o n s p i r a c y in r e s p e c t
of each.
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J: The a c t of c o n s p i r i n g .
1 0 , 5 2 9 .
MR, TRENGOVE: Y e s , my l o r d . 1
RUMPFF J: You can l e a v e out the word ' j o i n i n g '
because t h a t sounds l i k e a membership of a c l u b .
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s , t h a t i s the f i r s t over t a c t , my
l o r d ,
RUMPFF J: Yes ; then in regard to t h a t , the con- 5
s p i r a c y to overthrow w i t h h o s t i l e i n t e n t , you gave P a r -
t i c u l a r s ? On which you i n f e r r e d t h a t ?
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J: That i s the c o n s p i r a c y to overthrow the
S t a t e wi th h o s t i l e i n t e n t ? 10
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s .
RUMPFF J: Now y o u ' v e given us t h a t ; so t h a t i s to
what you are l i m i t e d , to show the h o s t i l e i n t e n t . There
I s no c o n s p i r a c y i f t h e r e i s no h o s t i l e i n t e n t .
MR. TRENGOVE: No, my l o r d , but t h e r e may be hos- 1 5
t i l e i n t e n t without a c o n s p i r a c y .
RUMPFF J: We are not concerned wi th t h a t . Your
oase i s a c o n s p i r a c y with h o s t i l e i n t e n t , and you have
s a i d t h a t on these f a c t s I i n f e r the c o n s p i r a c y with
h o s t i l e i n t e n t . I s n ' t t h a t so? 2 0
MR. TRENGOVE: I f your l o r d s h i p puts the p o s i t i o n
l i k e t h a t I a c c e p t i t a t t h i s s t a g e .
RUMPFF J: Y e s .
MR. TRENGOVE: The Crown's submission on i t s
Indic tment , my l o r d , i s t h a t i t may not be n e c e s s a r y 2 5
t o go i n t o that a t t h i s s t a g e , but t h e r e are two e l e -
ments with regard to the o v e r t a c t ; your s t a t e of mind
which must e x i s t b e f o r e you commit the a c t , and then
your p h y s i c a l a c t committed with t h a t s t a t e of mind.
1 0 , 5 3 0 .
Now the membership, or the p a r t i c i p a t i n g in the c o n s p i -
r a c y to overthrow the S t a t e , the o v e r t a c t r e f e r s only
to the p h y s i c a l p a r t i c i p a t i o n of the accused .
RUMPFF J: But the c o n s p i r a c y i s the key of your
c a s e ,
MR. TRENGOVE: Oh, y e s , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J; I f y o u ' v e got no c o n s p i r a c y y o u ' v e
got no c a s e .
MR. TRENGOVE; No, my l o r d , I d o n ' t concede t h a t .
RUMPFF J; On your Indictment .
MR. TRENGOVE; No, my l o r d s , I wouldn ' t concede
t h a t .
RUMPFF J; W e l l , I thought t h a t every s i n g l e a c t
here was done in pursuance of a c o n s p i r a c y ; t h a t i s as
a l l e g e d . Now, i f t h a t a c t , however dangerous i t may have
looked or been, was not done in pursuance of a c o n s p i r a c y ,
how can your case stand?
MR. TRENGOVE: My l o r d , a c c e p t i n g t h a t p o s i t i o n
a t the moment, a c c e p t i n g t h a t there i s a conspiracy . .
RUMPFF J; That i s your c a s e .
MR. TRENGOVE: That i s our c a s e , my l o r d .
A c c e p t i n g t h a t p o s i t i o n I s t i l l say t h a t in r e s p e c t
of each i n d i v i d u a l h i s p a r t i c i p a t i o n in t h a t c o n s p i r a c y
was preceded by a c e r t a i n mental s t a t e of h o s t i l e i n t e n t .
And t h a t h o s t i l e i n t e n t , with which he p a r t i c i p a t e d in
the c o n s p i r a c y , has not been p a r t i c u l a r i s e d by the Crown.
RUMPFF J: Has i t not been p a r t i c u l a r i s e d ?
That i s the q u e s t i o n .
MR. TRENGOVE: Wel l , my l o r d . . .
BEKKER J . ? I s n ' t t h i s a p o s s i b i l i t y , Mr.
1 0 , 5 3 1 .
Trengove: your f i r s t o v e r t a c t i s a c o n s p i r a c y amongst
the accused and other people to overthrow the S t a t e by
v i o l e n c e cum or p l u s h o s t i l e i n t e n t . You were asked
p a r t i c u l a r s from which you i n f e r t h a t c o n s p i r a c y with
a l l i t s e lements , one of the elements be ing the h o s t i l e
i n t e n t . You suppl ied P a r t i c u l a r s . . .
MR. THENGOVE: No, my l o r d .
BEKKER J; Just t e l l me where I am wrong. I s
not the e f f e c t of your Indictment p l u s f u r t h e r P a r t i c u -
l a r s , t h a t you s e t up a g a i n s t each of the accused as
the f i r s t o v e r t a c t a c o n s p i r a c y ; the second element
be ing to overthrow the S t a t e by v i o l e n c e , and the t h i r d
element being always wi th the h o s t i l e i n t e n t present?
MR. TRSNGOVE; No, my l o r d . May I j u s t g ive
your l o r d s h i p s an example? People e n t e r i n t o a formal
c o n s p i r a c y to overthrow the S t a t e by v i o l e n c e . F ive
or s i x people s ign a document in which they say 'We
hereby agree to work t o g e t h e r f o r the overthrow of the
S t a t e by v i o l e n c e ' , Now the s i g n i n g of t h a t document
i s an o v e r t a c t e Now. in proving w i t h what i n t e n t i o n
each of the accused s igned t h a t document, the Crown
would not be l i m i t e d merely to the f a c t t h a t they s igned
t h a t document,
RUMPFF J: Obviously not , u n l e s s the Crown
l i m i t s i t s e l f to Far ther P a r t i c u l a r s .
MR. TRENG-OVE; My l o r d s , the Crown would be
e n t i t l e d to take extraneous f a c t s to show that each
of the accused in appending h i s s i g n a t u r e to t h a t
document did so w i t h h o s t i l e i n t e n t . Now, the Defence
- the Crown p leads . . .
RUMPFF J: You d i f f e r e n t i a t e between v i o l e n c e
1 0 , 5 3 2 .
and h o s t i l e i n t e n t .
MR. THENGOVE: No, my l o r d s . May I j u s t cont inue?
Now the Crown a l l e g e s t h a t the accused on such and such a
date w i t h h o s t i l e i n t e n t conspired to overthrow the S t a t e
by v i o l e n c e . The Defence say 'From what f a c t s do you
i n f e r t h a t they conspired to overthrow the S t a t e by
v i o l e n c e ? 1 . We say 'The f a c t s from which we i n f e r i t
i s the f a c t t h a t they s igned t h a t document' .
RUMPFF J; Then you say you are e n t i t l e d , w i t h -
out g i v i n g other i n f o r m a t i o n , to b r i n g evidence about
t h e i r s t a t e of mind when they s igned?
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J: Then you d i f f e r e n t i a t e , f o r purposes
of p l e a d i n g , between the h o s t i l e i n t e n t and the v i o l e n c e ,
MR. TRENGOVE: Oh, y e s , my l o r d s , and I can t e l l
your l o r d s h i p s why. Because in terms of the Procedure
Act - - L e i b b r a n d t ' s c a s e , my l o r d s , d i s t i n g u i s h e s v e r y
c l e a r l y between the proof of h o s t i l e s t a t e of mind and
the proof of the o v e r t a c t . The s t a t e of mind need not
be proved by two w i t n e s s e s , my l o r d s . The p h y s i c a l a c t
must be proved by two w i t n e s s e s .
BEKKER J; On your argument, the Indictment
p l u s the Further P a r t i c u l a r s should be construed to
mean p a r t i c u l a r s l i m i t i n g the Crown only to a l l matters
other than h o s t i l e i n t e n t .
MR. TRENGOVE; H o s t i l e i n t e n t , my l o r d .
BEKKER J : And the e x i s t e n c e of the c o n s p i r a c y ,
but not n e c e s s a r i l y the h o s t i l e i n t e n t ? Although
from the matters p a r t i c u l a r i s e d we are asked to i n f e r
h o s t i l e i n t e n t ?
MR. TRENGOVE; Y e s , my l o r d .
1 0 , 5 3 3 .
RUMPFF J: W e l l , w i l l yon j u s t during the
lunch hour g e t the proper sequence of the Indictment,
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s , my l o r d .
(COURT ADJOURNED UNTIL 2 . 1 5 P.M)
BELT 381
ON THE COURT RESUMING AT 2 . 1 5 P.M.
BEKKER J; The Crown has Get I t s e l f the task
of proving the p o l i o y of the defunct Communist Party
during or about the year 1950.
Tothat end the Crown has c a l l e d c e r t a i n Grande * 1 c
as a w i t n e s s , the p r o p r i e t o r of the P ioneer P r i n t i n g X,J
P r e s s a t Cape Town. This wi tness s t a t e d t h a t during the
p e r i o d October 1949 to May 1950 he p r i n t e d seven i s s u e s
of a magazine descr ibed as "Freedom, a Communist b i-monthly"
These i s s u e s were produced and i d e n t i f i e d by him in t h i s
C o u r t . The i s s u e s of "Freedom" he s a i d were p r i n t e d by
him f o r the Communist P a r t y , and h i s charges were debi ted
to and were paid f o r by t h a t P a r t y . A f o o t n o t e appear-
i n g on each i s s u e of "Freedom" reads as f o l l o w s : 'Pub-
l i s h e d a t Room 1 5 , L loyds B l d g s , 58 Berg S t r e e t , Cape-
town by the p r o p r i e t o r Moses Mahane Kotane, 45 Mount
S t r e e t , Cape Town, and p r i n t e d by the P ioneer P r e s s
(Pty) L t d . , , 27 Oxford S t r e e t , Woodstock, Cape.
Mr. de Vos f o r the Crown i n i t i a l l y tendered
c e r t a i n passages appearing in some or a l l of these i s -
sues of "Freedom" in proof of the t r u t h of what was
1 0 , 5 3 4 .
t h e r e i n a s s e r t e d , and argued t h a t a p e r u s a l t h e r e o f 1
would enable t h i s Court to a s c e r t a i n what the p o l i c y
of the Communist P a r t y was a t the time aforementioned.
The r e c e p t i o n of t h i s evidence f o r the above
purpose would in our view of the matter be in d i r e c t
c o n f l i c t w i t h , and v i o l a t e the r u l e s of evidence p r e - 5
e l u d i n g the r e c e p t i o n of hearsay e v i d e n c e , and the
v a r i o u s i s s u e s of "Freedom" may not be used f o r that
purpose *
Mr, de Vos, however, then contended that he did
not seek to introduce the evidence on the b a s i s that 1 0
the documents proved the t r u t h of what was t h e r e i n
a s s e r t e d , and argued t h a t he would ask the Court to
draw c e r t a i n i n f e r e n c e s fror the f a c t t h a t the Communist
P a r t y caused these documents to be p u b l i s h e d , whether
the c o n t e n t s were t r u e or n o t , and from which he would 1 5
l a t e r be enabled to ask the Court to draw c e r t a i n i n -
f e r e n c e s concerning the p o l i c y of the Communist P a r t y .
In the l i g h t of t h i s content ion i t i s necessary
to rer* >rd t h a t t h e r e prima f a c i e proof that the Commu-
n i s t P a r t y paid f o r the p u b l i c a t i o n of these i s s u e s 2 0
of "PReedom" from which i t i s to be i n f e r r e d p o s s i b l y
t h a t the documents were d e l i v e r e d to the P a r t y o f f i c e s
and were in i t s p o s s e s s i o n . There i s no proof t h a t
these documents were ever d i s t r i b u t e d amongst members
of the p u b l i c . 2 5
Counsel f o r the Crown has d i s c l o s e d that
h i s purpose in t e n d e r i n g these documents i s not f o r
t h e i r t e s t i m o n i a l v a l u e , t h a t i s as evidence of the
t r u t h of what they a s s e r t , but f o r t h e i r c i rcumstan-
t i a l va lue to prove something other than the t r u t h
1©. 5 3 5 .
of what i s a s s e r t e d .
A r e f e r e n c e to Halsbury r e v e a l s the f o l l o w i n g :
paragraph 645, Halyesham's e d i t i o n , v o l . 1 3 , 'A s tatement
i s h e a r s a y i f tendered to prove the t r u t h of the f a c t s
a s s e r t e d . I t i s o r i g i n a l ev idence i f i t s m a t e r i a l i t y
depends on the f a c t t h a t i t was made, and not on the
f a c t t h a t i t was p r o v e d . " At t h i s s t a g e i t i s i m p o s s i b l e
f o r u s to a s s e s s in r e l a t i o n to the p o i n t in i s s u e ,
namely the p o l i c y of the Communist P a r t y a t the time
mentioned, the m a t e r i a l i t y of the f a c t t h a t the Commu-
n i s t P a r t y caused t h e s e documents to be p r i n t e d , i r r e s -
p e c t i v e of the q u e s t i o n whether the c o n t e n t s be t rue or
f a l s e . We s h a l l only be in a p o s i t i o n to a s s e s s - to
a p p r e c i a t e the m a t e r i a l i t y of the ev idence a f t e r the
c o n t e n t s have been p l a c e d b e f o r e u s , and p o s s i b l y having
had the b e n e f i t of argument thereon.
In the c i r c u m s t a n c e s the ev idence w i l l be a l low-
ed on a p r o v i s i o n a l b a s i s , namely: t h a t i f in the n e t t
r e s u l t i t emerges t h a t the ev idence i s not m a t e r i a l i t
s h a l l be s t r u c k out of the r e c o r d .
With r e f e r e n c e to a r u l i n g g i v e n by t h i s Court
a t an e a r l i e r s t a g e , to which Mr. K e n t r i d g e has drawn
our a t t e n t i o n , i t seems to me t h a t the q u e s t i o n then
c o n s i d e r e d was not m a t e r i a l . In V o l . 4 7 , a t page 9493?
the Crown sought to p r e s e n t ev idence c o n c e r n i n g a
speech by c e r t a i n W. Mate. The ev idence c o n t i n u e s
a s f o l l o w s : ("Q) W i l l you r e f e r to page 56 of your
n o t e s ; do you have a speaker t h e r e ? — (A) The Chairman,
M a t e . " ("Q) W. M a t e ? — (A) Y e s . " ("Q) The one y o u ' v e
mentioned b e f o r d ? — (A) I cannot say ; t h e r e were two
Mates, one i s W. and the other i s A. Mate, but I did
10
15
20
25
30
1 0 , 5 3 6 .
not put the i n i t i a l down h e r e " . ("Q) W i l l you read what
he s a i d ? —
Mr. Plewman, Counsel f o r the Crown, then i n t e r -
vened in the f o l l o w i n g language: ' I f t h e r e i s no i d e n -
t i t y of e i t h e r an accused or a c o - c o n s p i r a t o r , i t seems
to me t h a t nothing t h a t was s a i d a t t h i s meeting can he
r e l e v a n t or a d m i s s i b l e , and i f there i s no i d e n t i f i c a -
t i o n of. a .person " He was then i n t e r r u p t e d by
Counsel f o r the Crown, Mr. v . d . Walt who s t a t e d : 'That
i s so; i f he cannot i d e n t i f y t h i s person Mate then
there are no accused or no c o - c o n s p i r a t o r s , but I sug-
g e s t t h a t h i s evidence stands because i t was a meeting
of the A f r i c a n N a t i o n a l Congress and should be r e l e v a n t
and a d m i s s i b l e ' .
The Rules wi th r e f e r e n c e to r e c e i v i n g the
evidence of a c o - c o n s p i r a t o r a r e , I t h i n k , c l e a r . In
the c i rcumstances of t h a t p a r t i c u l a r e v i d e n c e , there
i s , or was no evidence to show t h a t the person who spoke
was a c o n s p i r a t o r or a c o - c o n s p i r a t o r a t the t ime, and
there i s no r u l e of evidence which would in our view of
the matter a u t h o r i s e the r e c e p t i o n of t h a t e v i d e n c e ,
whereas in the p r e s e n t c a s e , there i s o r i g i n a l evidence
even though prima f a c i e , thax the Communist P a r t y
p r i n t e d these i s s u e s of "Freedom", the m a t e r i a l i t y
t h e r e o f remains, as has been mentioned e a r l i e r on, to
be seen .
The Order which I make t h e r e f o r e i s the f o l -
l o w i n g : The evidence w i l l be r e c e i v e d on a p r o v i s i o n a l
b a s i s . I f i t emerges t h a t the evidence i s not m a t e r i a l
or r e l e v a n t i t s h a l l be s t r u c k o u t .
RUMPFF J: I a g r e e .
KENNEDY J: I a g r e e .
1 0 , 5 3 7 .
MR. TRENGOVE: As your l o r d s h i p s p l e a s e .
RUMPFF J: Mr. Trengove, do you want to p r o -
ceed wi th the argument now, or must we hear the magis-
t r a t e Mr. Behrmann?
MR. TRENGOVE: My l o r d s , i f my learned f r i e n d
i s in a p o s i t i o n to deal with the m a g i s t r a t e now . .
MR. FISCHER: My l o r d s , the other matter has
prevented one from going back to the problem . . .
RUMPFF J: Wel l , then, you had b e t t e r conclude
your argument.
MR. TRENGOVE: My l o r d s , b e f o r e the adjourn-
ment I was endeavouring to i l l u s t r a t e t h a t the proof
of h o s t i l e i n t e n t need not n e c e s s a r i l y be i n f e r r e d from
the o v e r t a c t i t s e l f , or from the i n t e n t i o n with which
a s p e c i f i c o v e r t a c t was committed. One can go outs ide
the gambit of the evidence required to prove the o v e r t
a c t and o u t s i d e t h a t to prove the h o s t i l e i n t e n t .
KENNEDY J: W e l l , L e i b b r a n d t 1 s case makes
that f a i r l y c l e a r .
MR. TRENGOVE: Yes , my l o r d s , the passage
t h a t I intended to r e f e r theCourt to i s a t page 284
of the Judgment in L e i b b r a n d t 1 s c a s e , 1944, A p p e l l a t e
D i v i s i o n , page 284 to 285. I d o n ! t think i t ' s n e c e s -
s a r y to quote t h a t . Now, my l o r d s , L e i b b r a n d t ' s case
would, of c o u r s e , in my submission apply u n l e s s the
Crown has d e l i b e r a t e l y l i m i t e d i t s e l f in the proof
of the h o s t i l e i n t e n t by the p a r t i c u l a r s t h a t i t sup-
p l i e d . T h e r e f o r e , my l o r d s , i t becomes n e c e s s a r y to
see whether the Crown's mind was ever d i r e c t e d to t h i s
quest ion as to whether the Defence wanted p a r t i c u l a r s
of the h o s t i l e i n t e n t by i t s e l f , and whether the Crown
1 0 , 5 3 8
l i m i t e d i t s e l f in t h a t r e s p e c t . Now, my l o r d s , . .
RUMPFF J; What happened in the case of the f i r s t
Indictment?
MR. TRENGOVE; In the case of the f i r s t Indictment
on t h i s i s s u e , my l o r d , the p o s i t i o n was e x a c t l y the same.
KENNEDY J: Was tide re no request f o r p a r t i c u l a r s
as t o h o s t i l e i n t e n t ?
MR. TRENGOVE: No, my l o r d . There was never any
quest ion as to the f a c t s from which the s t a t e of mind
of the accused was i n f e r r e d .
KENNEDY J; And was i t not r a i s e d by i n f e r e n c e in
the p r e s e n t case?
MR. TRENGOVE: No, my l o r d .
KENNEDY J: D o e s n ' t adherence imply some s o r t of
h o s t i l e i n t B n t , or d o e s n ' t the Crown mean t h a t . .
MR. TRENGOVE: No, my l o r d . Adherence r e l a t e d
to the o v e r t a c t of c o n s p i r a c y only; the Defence wanted
to know from what f a c t s i t i n f e r r e d the adherence of
each accused to the c o n s p i r a c y .
KENNEDY J : The e x i s t e n c e of the c o n s p i r a c y , i s
t h a t something d i f f e r e n t e n t i r e l y from the . . . .
MR. TRENGOVE: The e x i s t e n c e of the c o n s p i r a c y ,
my l o r d , i s something e n t i r e l y s e p a r a t e from the h o s t i l e
i n t e n t .
KENNEDY J: W e l l , speaking f o r myself I was
under the impression t h a t even i f i t was not e x p r e s s l y
s a i d , the Court intended f o r the accused to have b e f o r e
them a l l the m a t e r i a l f a c t s the Crown intended to p r o v e .
MR. TRENGOVE: In r e s p e c t of the matters asked
f o r , my l o r d .
RUMPFF J: Y e s , but now, i f the a l l e g a t i o n
1 0 , 5 3 9 .
i s , h a v i n g regard p a r t i c u l a r l y to the case we are d e a l i n g
wi th h e r e , t h a t there e x i s t e d a c o n s p i r a c y with h o s t i l e
i n t e n t , which intended to overthrow the S t a t e by v i o l e n c e ,
t h a t i s the c o n s p i r a c y ; a c o n s p i r a c y wi thout h o s t i l e
i n t e n t would not be s u f f i c i e n t , would i t ? The Crown's
c a s e .
MR. TRENGOVE: My l o r d s , a c o n s p i r a c y . . .
RUMPFF J; When i t comes to P l e a d i n g s , when i t
comes to the Indic tment , i t says there i s a c o n s p i r a c y
amongst a number of p e o p l e ; t h a t i s a c o n s p i r a c y , wi th
h o s t i l e i n t e n t , to overthrow the S t a t e . That i s an
element of the c o n s p i r a c y , i s n ' t i t ?
MR. TRENGOVE: The element of the c o n s p i r a c y i s
t h a t you conspire to overthrow the S t a t e by v i o l e n c e ,
and . .
RUMPFF J; I t i s not a c o n s p i r a c y to worry about
u n l e s s i t was entered i n t o wi th h o s t i l e i n t e n t ?
MR. TRENGOVE; Oh, y e s , my l o r d , t h a t a p p l i e s in
r e s p e c t of every o v e r t a c t , . .
RUMPFF J : W e l l , I 'm c o n f i n i n g i t to the c o n s p i r a c y .
That a l s o i s a l l e g e d , t h a t i t ' s a c o n s p i r a c y to overthrow
the S t a t e by v i o l e n c e , wi th h o s t i l e i n t e n t .
MR. TRENGOVE: No, my l o r d s . We d o n ' t a l l e g e
a c o n s p i r a c y to overthrow the S t a t e with h o s t i l e i n t e n t .
We say i t ' s a c o n s p i r a c y to overthrow the S t a t e by
v i o l e n c e .
RUMPFF J : Y e s , and a c o n s p i r a c y w i t h h o s t i l e
i n t e n t .
MR. TRENGOVE: No, my l o r d .
BEKKER J: With h o s t i l e i n t e n t you jo ined the
c o n s p i r a c y to overthrow the S t a t e by v i o l e n c e ?
10,540,
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s , my l o r d , t h a t ' s i t .
BEKKER J: But does not t h a t mean a t the time you
were a member you had t h i s p a r t i c u l a r mental element?
MR. TRENGOVE: Oh, y e s , my l o r d . Otherwise i t i s
not an o v e r t a c t , my l o r d s .
RUMPFF J : That i s why we charge you; i t ' s a 5
p e c u l i a r c o n s p i r a c y ; i t has a c e r t a i n c h a r a c t e r i s t i c
so f a r as the agreement i s concerned, and as r e g a r d s the
s imte of mind. Now, then, i f there i s a r e q u e s t , "From
what do you i n f e r t h i s c o n s p i r a c y " , t h a t i m p l i e s "From
what do you i n f e r a l l the elements on which you r e l y " . 10
MR. TRENGOVE: Y e s , my l o r d . But t h a t does not
n e c e s s a r i l y mean t h a t we t h e r e b y exc lude a l l - or i n c l u d e
a l l the elemnts on which we need r e l y to prove h o s t i l e
i n t e n t .
KENNEDY J: No, no, but w a s n ' t i t intended under 15
the . .
MR. TRENGOVE: May I take some other o v e r t a c t ?
RUMPFF J : May I j u s t ask you t h i s q u e s t i o n .
Have you, up to t h i s s t a g e , has the Crown up to t h i s
s t a g e l e d any ev idence of whatever n a t u r e which i s not 20
covered by the P a r t i c u l a r s ?
MR. TRENGOVE: My l o r d s . . . .
RUMPFF J : Has i t sought to l e a d ev idence of
whatever nature c o n c e r n i n g the h o s t i l e i n t e n t of any
of the a c c u s e d , which f a l l s o u t s i d e the P a r t i c u l a r s ? 25
MR. TRENGOVE: My l o r d , the Crown has l e d such
a l o t of ev idence t h a t I 'm not in a p o s i t i o n t o s a y ,
but I do know t h a t in c e r t a i n c a s e s we have l e d ev idence
which did not n e c e s s a r i l y f a l l w i t h i n our Schedules and
we 've a lways taken up the a t t i t u d e , my l o r d s , t h a t t h a t 30
Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812
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