EDITING YOUR LIFE STORY With Jordan Peterson

TRANSCRIPT

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Welcomebacktothisongoinginfluxofinsight.Thisbaconoflightina

worldofspam,ThePatrickCoffinShow.Sogladtohaveyouback.I'mvery

happytowelcomebacktothebroadcastDr.JordanPeterson.Heisaprofessor

ofPsychologyattheUniversityofToronto,andanauthor,andaclinical

psychologist.

HewasontheshowonFebruary3rd,anditgotabigroundofinterest,and

statspikes,soI'mverygratefulforhishelpinlaunchingwhatyou'renow

enjoyingacrosstheworld.IwaslookingattheLibsynstats,andit'svery

humblingtoseehowmanypeoplearoundtheworldaredownloadingthe

showandenjoyingit—andtoday,you'regonnareallyenjoyit,becausewe're

goingtogoawayfromleft-rightconversationdownintotheself,andtalk

aboutaneffectivewayofenvisioningafuturethatisfullofproductivityand

meaning.

Dr.Petersonisthedeveloperofaprogramcalledthe"SelfAuthoring

Suite”—we'lltalkaboutthewebsiteagainandagain—anditfocusesnotjust

onpast/present,andfuture,butonvirtuesandhowyoucan,inwritingout

yourstory,cometotermswiththingsthathavehappenedtoyou:theselfthat

youfeelyouarenow,movingforward.SoDr.Peterson,sogladtohaveyou

back.

JBP:Thanksfortheinvitation;lookingforwardtoit.

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PC:Maybebeforewedigintothe"SelfAuthoringSuite”,wecangetalittle

updateonthesituationwefirstdiscussed,andthatistheUniversityof

Toronto'smandatingtheuseofcertainpronounsfornon-binaryandtrans

people.IknowyourinitiallecturesonYouTubewentviral,andgeneratedalot

ofmediainterest,butalsopersonalblowbackagainstyou—andalso,you

know,countersupport;it'sacomplicatedworld.Wheredothingsstandnow?

JBP:Well,Iwouldcertainlysaythatthecountersupporthasoverwhelmingly

counterbalancedthecriticismsandcritiques.BackinDecember—well,soI

launchedthosevideos,andattheendofSeptemberandtheycause

tremendousfurorofnewspaperarticles,andmoreonlinecommentaryand

viewsthanthroughconventionalmedia.Buttheyalsoresultedinthe

Universitysendingmetwowarningletterstakingmetotaskformy

announcedrefusaltousemade-uppronouns,orwhatIregardedasmade-up

pronouns,likeZeandZir,yetIfeltwerevanguardterminologyfortheradical

post-ModernistLeft,whichisexactlywhattheyare.

Normallyspeakingwiththedisciplinaryprocess;yougetthreelettersand

thensomethingmorefinalanddetermininghappens,buttheuniversity

stoppedwithatthesecondletter,anditwasn'tobviousforafewmonths

whetherIwouldbeabletocontinueteaching,butinnosmallpartbecauseof

theoverwhelmingpublicsupportthatIreceivedfromjournaliststhroughout

Canadaandthenfromthegeneralpublic,aswell,theUniversityhas...the

Universitywasrespondingtopublicpressure;let'ssaybothways,youknow,

whentheyfirstsentmethewarningletters.

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Thathappenedasaconsequenceoftheirconsultationswiththeirlawyers,

butalsobecausetherewasinternalpressureontheadministrationbroughtto

bearbytheseprofessionalsocialjusticewarrioractiviststypes,whoare

unbelievablygoodatthat.It'salltheydo.Andsowhenthatwas

counterbalancedbypublicoutrage,Iwouldsay,theUniversityrespondedto

that,aswell,anddecidedpolitelyIwouldsay)andI'msayingthiswithout

rancororanger.Imean,thepeoplethatIwasdealingwithwerebynomeans,

evilpeopleormalevolentpeople.Theywereadministratorstryingtofinda

peaceableroadthrough—peaceableandconflict-freeroadthroughwhatever

thatmightbe.Now,youcandebateaboutwhetherornotthat'sthebestway

tohandlesuchthings,butitdoesn'tmatter;Istartedteachingagainin

January.

Idoallmyteachinginthefirstsemester,andsoIwasn'tteaching

undergraduatesinthefall.It'sjustmygraduatestudents,anddoingmy

research,andsoon.ButIstartedagaininJanuary,andIwasverynervous

aboutthat.Ididn'tknowwhatwouldhappeniftherewouldbemoreprotests,

oriftherewouldbepeopletryingtobackmeintoacornerandgivemea

roughtime.Butwhathappenedwasthatthestudentswereexceptionally

welcoming,andthey'vebeenverypositivelyinclinedtowardsme,andhappy

tobeinmyclasses,andsothatcalmedmedownfairlyquickly,andIwould

sayapartfromthefactthatInowhavefarmorepublicexposurethanIdid

before—whichisgood,giventhatIwanttohavetheopportunitytoeducateas

manypeopleasIcanonpsychologicalmatters,thingshavereturnedto

somethingapproximatingnormal.

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PC:Inourhousehold,normalisasettingonthedryer.

JBP:Yeah,well,yes,Icanappreciatethat.

PC:OnethingInoticedisyourwillingnesstoputyourselfinvery

uncomfortableplaces.Idon'tknowanyoneontheleftsideamongoursocial

justicewarriorbrethrenwhoroutinelyputthemselvesintoaforumwhere

they'reoutgunned(justnumericallyintheopinionbreakdownofthe

panelists)andyouseemtoalmostenjoydoing“YosemiteSam”pushback

againstpeople.I'vewatchedyouinseveraldifferent(Iguessdebatesisthe

rightwordforit)buttheothersidedon'twanttodothat.Theywanttosilence

peopletheyregardasevil.Yourapproachisletthemarketplaceofideaswork

itselfout,andwedisagree,andlet'sgetthefirstprinciples.

JDP:Yeah,well,thefunnythingaboutthatisthatit'snotoutofcowardice,

philosophically,thatthepeopleontheonthepost-modernsideofthetable

shutdowndialogue.Theydon'tbelieveindialogue.Philosophically,Imeanit's

oneofthetenetsofpost-moderntheory,thattheideaaccordcanbereached

betweengroupsofdifferentidentitythroughdialogueisactuallypartofthe

patriarchalsubstructure.

Sobecauselogoswhichistherootwordforlogicandtherootfordialogue

isthemostentrenchedprincipleuponwhichthepatriarchyoperatesandsoto

engageindialoguewithanopponentismerelytodemonstratethattheir

positionhassomevalidity.There'snomarketplaceofideas.Thatdoesn't

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belonginpost-Modernisttheory.There'snothingbutthecompetition,the

cutthroatcompetition,betweengroupsofdifferentidentitiesforpower.

That'stheirlandscape,andsomeoneoncesaidthateveryoneisanexponentof

somedeadphilosophers'ideas,andthesePostmodern-authoritariantypesare

thepuppetsofDerrida,andFoucault,andthoseterribleFrenchintellectualsof

thelate60sand1970swhofiguredouthowtomarkettheirMarxismundera

newdisguise.

Andtheyactthatoutwithcompleteconsistency.Eventhoughyoucan'tsay

thatanysingleactivist,let'ssay,isafull-blownincarnationofpostmodernist

ideals,ifyoutakeahundredofthemandwatchthemact,they'relikepixelson

ascreen.Theyactoutthepattern.Maybeeachofthemonlycarries10%ofthe

patternor20%dependingonhowindoctrinatedtheyare,butasagroup,it's

alldrivenbytheseunderlyingideas.Theydon'tvaluedebateordiscussion.

PC:AndifyouaddinSaulAlinskytothatcocktail,thenyougetthedefault

positionofmostundergraduateenvironmentsinCanadaandtheU.S.,itseems

tomefactoriesofthisideaofshoutingdowndialogueasworthlessoreven

dangerousandnotshowingup,becauseyoudon'twanttoevenlegitimize

someone'spositionbybeinginthesamestudiowiththem.

JBP:Right.Absolutely.Absolutely.Well,youknow,oneofthethingsI'vetried

topuzzleoutishowintheworldyoungpeopleevergotcapturedbytheidea

thattheproperwaytogoabouttransformingtheworldinapositivewayisto

wanderaroundoutsidewithsignsonsticksandmakenoise.Imean,it'ssucha

strangeidea.It'slikeamedievaldanceofsomesort.It'ssodistantfrom

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reality...theideaisthat'sthewaythatyoucanchangecomplexsystemsforthe

better.Butwehaveentiredisciplinescontinuallypromotingtheideathat

socialactivismisthehighestformofhumanactivity,andit'spseudo-activity.

Itlookslikeeffort,butitisn't.Itlooksproductive,butitisn't.

PC:Ithinkyou'releavingtobefairIthinkyou'releavingouttheblackmasks

andthecarburning,whichIthinkisthepeacedelaresistanceofeffective

dialogue.

JBP:Yes,yeah,well,thatalso,youknow,thatthedarkerendofthatallows

peopletorevelintheirresentment,well,simultaneouslytellingthemselves

thestoryabouthowvirtuoustheyare,youknow,it'sabsolutelyappalling

behavior.

PC:Andtheanonymityisthatdoingitatnightandwiththeblackmaskto

solve.

JBP:Ifiguredouthowtoneverhaveprotestersatmytalks.It'srealeasy.I

can'trecommendthis.Hey,allyousocialconservativetypesthatarelistening.

Alwaysscheduleyourtalkearlyinthemorningbecausetheprotesterstheir

late-nightpreachers.It'snotover.So,ifyouhaveyourtalkat8:00inthe

morning,noprotesterswillevershow.

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PC:Laughs.

JBP:Theydon'trolloutofbedtill2:00,andthey'renotevenorganizedtogo

protestuntil5:00.That'sreallycomical.Isuggestedtotheuniversitywhenwe

didthedebatetherethatwehaveitinthemorningforexactlythatreason.We

hadonegovernmentelectedmembersshowup,todistributeafewpamphlets,

andthatwasitforprotests.

PC:Well,let'sgofromanonymoustodisclosure,andtalkabouttheSelf

AuthoringSuite.I'vebegunthewritingofit.Istartedatthepresentand

presentvirtuebecauseI'machicken.Ididn'twanttogotoognarly,becauseI

franklyevenwritingsokindofopenly—asaCatholicitfeltlikeawritten

confessionwithoutabsolution—butjusttheactofdisclosingthingsabout

evensomethingpositive,andIthinkthevirtueI'mworkingonnowis

comfortablebeingthecenterofattention,andIbegantothinkaboutwhyyou

orthewayit'sbeendevelopedhasdescribedthatasavirtue,becausegrowing

upthatwasalwaysthrownbackatmeas,"Oh,you'rejusttheclassclown,you

know,you'vegottoalwaysbe“on,”andthat'shardlyavirtue,butitisinaway

Icouldnotdoanycommunicating.

Icouldn'tspeakinfrontofalargecrowdIcouldn'tbesittinghereifIwasn't

comfortablebeingthe“centerofattention”.SonowI'vejustchangedmymind

aboutthat,andthenI'mreallyjustatthebeginningofit.

JBP:Oh,good.I’mreallygladtohearaboutthat.

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PC:Iwanttogetintothedata.Iwanttotalkaboutthe85studentsatMcGill

andyourworkwithJamesPennebakerandtheRotterdamresearchbecause

datalikethatgetsmyattention.Howdidthistheideaofwritingdownyour

past,present,andfuture,andalmostyou'reeditingyourself,yourfilteringthe

memoryoftheevent,too,aren'tyou?Howdidthisideabegin?

JBP:Well,ithadtwosourcesconceptually,Imean,I'vebeenworkingonthe

ideathatpeople’sperceptualframesarebasicallyhowthestructureofstories

foraverylongtime,andsoyoulookattheworldthroughalensandthe

lens—ifyoudescribethatlenstosomeoneelse,you'rebasicallytellingthema

story.Peoplereallylikelisteningtostoriesbecauseweliketheopportunityto

havemultiplelensesbecausetheyeachserveadifferentfunction.Whichis

probablywhyit'ssousefultolistentopeoplewhodon'tagreewithyou

becausetheymighttellyousomethingyoudon'tknowthatyoucanthenuse.

Ifyoutalktopeoplewhoagreewithyou,justhearthesameoldthingallthe

time.Okay,sooneofthemonesourcewastheobservationthatpeopleinhabit

stories,andfindthemvaluable.Andsoit'sapsychoanalyticideainpartthat

youactoutthestoryofyourlife;somethinglikethat.

Soyouneedtoknowwhatyourstoryis,andthisissomethingthatCarlJung

stressedparticularlybecausehesaidifyoudon'tknowwhatyourstoryis,

there'salwaysthepossibilitythatit'satragedyandthatyou'rethefool.So

youdon'thavetheoptionofnotbeinginthestory.Youhavetheoptionof

determining,inpart,whatthatstorywillbe.Soyoucanbetheheroofyour

ownstorywemightsayorabitplayerinsomeoneelse'sstory.You'renot

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goinggetaverygoodpartifyoupickbitplayerinsomeoneelse'sdrama.Now

youcanforfeitresponsibilityifyoudothat,soithassomeadvantages.The

nextpieceofthepuzzlewasJamesPennebaker'swork,andhe'saprofessorat

theUniversityofTexasatAustin.AndPennebakerwasinterestedintesting

Freud'stheory.Freudhadthistheorythatifbadthingshappenedtoyouwhen

youwereyoung,thatmighthaveadeterminingeffectonyourpersonalityand

thatyouwerelikelytorepressthoseeventstothedetrimentofyourwell-

being.

Freudbelievedthatifyoubroughtthoseeventsforward,anddiscussed

them,thatthatwouldproduceanemotionalresponsethathecalledcatharsis.

Oftenbeaccompanied,say,bytearsandthatthatcatharsisreleasedthe

emotionalpressureassociatedwiththeeventsandwascurative.There's

somethingaboutthatthat'strue,eventhoughIthinkFreud'sformulationwas

flawed.Aflawedformulationthatmovesyouintherightdirectionisalot

betterthannoformulationatall.Pennebakerdecidedtoputthistothetest,

andsowhathedidwasbringuniversitystudentsin,andhadthemwrite15

minutesaday,threedaysinarow,abouttheworstthingthateverhappened

tothem.Acontrolgroupjustwroteaboutthethingstheydidthatday,and

whatPennebakerfoundwasthatovermulti-monthfollow-upperiod,the

studentswhoengagedinthat,callitexpressivewriting,becausehewas

workingonthecatharsismodelatthattime.Theirhealthimproved,they

visitedthedoctorlessfrequently,andPennebakerwasverycuriousabout

whythatoccurred,andsohewentbackintothewritingsofthosewhose

healthhadimprovedthemost,andcodedthewordstheyused,andhecoded

wordsforemotionalexpression,sothatwouldbethecatharsishypothesis.

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Buthealsocodedthemforindicationsofcognitivetransformationlike,

"Well,Inowrealize,"or"I'vecometounderstand,"orthat"Inowknow,",or"I

cannowsee,"andwhathefoundwastheemotionalwordsdidn'tpredict

improvement,butthecognitivewordsdid.Andsohishypothesiswasthatthe

reformulationofatraumaticoruncertaineventintoanunderstoodsequence

reducedtheoverallstressloadontheperson.

Soawayofthinkingaboutthatisimaginethatyourbrainistryingto

computehowstressedyoushouldbe,anditwantstomakeyouasstressedas

thesituationisdangerous,andsoyoumightsay,"Well,howdangerousisyour

situation?"andtheanswerisifyou'reastreetalcoholicwho'sonthevergeof

starvationandit'sreallycold,youshouldbereallystressed,becauseyou're

barelyclingingontotheundersideoflife,andsoyourbrainisgoingto

producealotofcortisol,andit'sgoingtoputyouinapositionofemergency

preparation.Theproblemwiththatisthatburnsupyourphysicalresources

fasterthanyoucanreplenishthem.

Soitbasicallyagesyouacrossallthedimensionsofagingyoucould

imagine.Itmakesyoumorelikelytobeobese,morelikelytodevelop

Alzheimer's,morelikelytobedepressed,morelikelytogetcancer,more

likelytodevelopdiseases,younameit.Becausecortisolsuppressesimmunity,

forexample,whereasifyou'reinacomfortableposition,andyourjobis

somethingyou'vemastered,andyouhavelotsoffriendsandfamilyaround

you,thenyourbrainisgoingtonoticethatprettymuchwhereveryougo

thingsturnoutthewayyouwantthemto,andit'sgoingtoassumethatyou're

safe,relativelyspeakingandthatyoudon'tneedtobeinastateofemergency

preparation.

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Nowimaginethatit'sverydifferentcalledcomputationalact,andsoyour

mindseemstodosomethinglikeimaginethateachsituationthatyou've

movedthroughinyourlifecouldbeconsideredaterritorial,anelementof

territory,andthenimaginethatthere'saproportionofterritorieswhere

thingswentwellcomparedtowheretheywentbadly.

Thehighertheproportionofthingsthatwentbadlytothingsthatwent

well,themorestressedyoushouldbebecauseit'sanindexthatyoufailedto

masteryourenvironment.Andthemorethatyoufailedtomasteryour

environmentthemorenervousandagitatedandpreparedforemergencyyou

shouldbe.Whenyougobackandwriteaboutasituationthatyoudidn't

masterwhatyou'retryingtodoisextractoutanaccountofitthat'scausally

accurate,sothatyoucanavoidsuchcircumstancesinthefuture,andthenif

youdothatproperly,yourbrainwillthink,"Okay,nowyouknowwhattodo.

Wecancodethatlittleterritoryasmastered,andthatdecreasesyouroverall

stressload.

PC:Iwanttofocusonlogosherejustaminute,becauseI'mlookingforwardto

goingthroughitinmyownpast,andthingsthathavehappenedtome.Ifound

greatsolaceinViktorFrankl'sbook,Man'sSearchforMeaning,andhiscoining

thephrase,"logotherapy."

JBP:Yeah.

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PC:Isitpossibleforsomeonewhentheyexternalizesometraumaticevents,

saysomenegativescarythingthathappenedtothem,andthey“minddump”

itbyputtingitonpaper,orinthiscaseinthesoftware.Isitpossiblethatthose

darktimes,thosetimesofpain,canparadoxicallybecomesourcesofinsight

andgreatercouragebecauseyourealizeitwasdistressing,butitwasn't

dangerous.I'mhere.I'mwritingaboutit,andIcanmoveforwardwithgreater

strength.

JBP:Sure.Thatispartofwhatyou'redoing,youknow,likelet'ssaythatyou

hadahistoryofbeingbulliedwhenyouwereten.Well,youmightbecarrying

thatwithyou.Imeanyoumadeacommentearliertodayaboutthefactthat

yousortofreflexivelyregardedyourabilitytobeatthecenterofattentionas

afault.Thatwasacrystallizedstory,micro-story,thatyou'vebeencarrying

builtintoyouallthewayalong,andit'staggedpartofthemannerinwhich

youexistintheworldasnegative.Well,nowyou'remucholderthanyouwere

whenyoudevelopedthatmicro-story,butithasn'tbeenupdated.Now,you

canthink,"Well,waitaminute,obviously,thatmademebadatsittingdown,

andshuttingup,andlistening,butthatwhydoesthatconstituteofvirtue

anyways?”Itdoesitintheclassroomwhereeveryoneissupposedtositdown,

andshutup,andlisten.Thatisnotbyanystretchoftheimaginationa

reasonablesampleofwhatyoumightneedtomoveforwardinlife

successfully.Theschoolsystemwassetuptotrainobedientworkersbackin

thelate1800's.That'swhyeverybody'sarrayedindesksandroads,andwhy

there'salarmbellsthatgooff.Itwasexplicitlydesignedtomakepeople

obedient.Really?That'sstillwhatwe'reteachingchildrentodo?Imeanyou

shouldbedisciplinedandallofthat.Youshouldbeabletofollowaplanned

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sequence,butthereareveryfewpeoplewhoworkin19th-centuryfactory

anymore.

Soanywaysyougobackintothesememoriesthathavebeencodifiedina

particularwaythatleaveyouwithaparticularviewoftheworldandtheself-

representation.Reconsiderthem,andupdatethem.

Ihadaclientonce,thisisagoodexampleofbecauseyouthinkthepastis

fixedandunchanging,butit'ssubjecttoreinterpretation,soIhadaclientonce

whocameandtoldmethatshehadbeensexuallyabusedbyherolder

brother.Shewasveryyoung.Shewasaboutfour,andshewastellingmethe

story,andbeingquitedistressedbyit.Ihadthisvisioninmyimaginationof

hersufferingatthehandsof,youknow,a15-year-oldora16-year-oldor

somethinglikethat,butIaskedher,"Okay,well,howoldwithyourbrother?”

Andshesaidsix.Shehadabouttwenty-seven,andshetoldmethisstory,and

soIsaidtoher,"Well,lookyouknowonestoryisthatyouweresexually

abusedbyyourolderbrother,andthesix-year-oldisalotbiggerthanafour-

year-old,right?

Imeanfromafour-year-oldsperspective,thesix-year-oldmightaswellbe

anadult,butIsaidwellmaybeyouweretooreallybadlysupervisedchildren.

Imeanthinkaboutasixyearold,youknow,anditcameasquiteashockto

herbecause,shehadalwaysconceptualizedherolderbrotherasthissortof

menacingolderforce,butshealsohasa27-year-oldknewwhatsix-year-olds

werelike,andsoyoucouldsay“Wellitwasthesameeventeitherway,”but

that'snotexactlytrue.

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Sothere'slotsofpartsofapersonthatarestuckinthepast,andyoucantell

thatroughlyspeakingifyouremembersomethingthat'smorethanabout18

monthsold,andthencausesemotionaldistresswhenyourememberit.It'sas

ifthepartofyouisstuckbackthereinthepast.Here'sawayofthinkingabout

it.Soimaginewhenyoufaceathreat,orsomethingunknown.Okay,youlearn

fromthat.Whatdoesitmeanthatyoulearn?Well,itmeansthatthat'sa

domainofinformation,andyouacquiretheinformationandyourebuildyour

owninteriorstructuresofinterpretation,andyouelaborateandupdateyour

modeloftheworld.Soyouturntheanomalousorunexpectedexperienceinto

aslightlydifferentviewoftheworldandaslightlydifferentpersonality.Now,

ifyouhitawallthatyoucouldn'tgetpast,yourbodysignifiesthatas

threatening.

You'vebeenunabletotransformthatthreatintousableinformationwhich

basicallymeansyouhaven'tbeenabletogetthegoldfromthedragon.It

reallydoesmean—that'swhatthatstorymeans,andsowhatyou'redoingis

goingbacktoyourpast,andsayingwellwheredoallthedragonssleep,andis

theresomethingIcandotoroustthemoutnowandgatherthetreasurethat

remains.

AlotmorepeopleworkedonPennebakerparadigmovertheyears,andit

wasbasicallyfoundthatregardlessofwhatyouwroteabout,aslongasitwas

uncertain,thesameandcurativebenefitsseemedtoapply,andsothefutureis

uncertain.Youcansaythefutureisuncertain.Theunattendedfutureisa

sourceofcontinualanxiety.Soyouwanttomapit.Okay,thenthereisanother

lineofresearchshowingthatifyougetpeopletowriteoutaplanfortheir

life—notfortheirjob—iftheywriteoutaplanfortheirlife,theirjob

performance(theiracademicperformance)improvessubstantially:10%on

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averageincorporateenvironments.Inourresearch,theaverageisbeing

about25%foruniversitystudents.

Andwealsoshowspecificallywiththefutureauthoringprogram,which

we'llgettoinamoment,thatitincreasesgradepointaveragebyabout20%

anddecreasesdropoutbyabout25%.Especiallyformen.Especiallyforlower

performingmenorethnicminoritymenforthatmatter.

Sothefutureauthoringprogramasksyoufirstofall,toputyourselfinsort

ofameditativestateofmindordaydreamingstateofmind,andthento

imaginethatyouweretakingcareofyourselfthewaythatyouwouldtake

careofsomeoneyoucaredabout.That'snotaneasythingtodo,because

peopleareoftenveryself-critical,butextendtoyourselfthesamecourtesy

thatyouwouldstandtosomeonethatyoucaredabout.Thenaskyourself:

threetofiveyearsdowntheroadwhatdoIwantmynewfriendshipstolook

like?WhatsortofpeopledoIwanttobearound?Whatdowewantfroman

intimaterelationship?Howshouldmyfamilybeconstituted?WhatdoIwant

formycareer?HowamIgoingtotakecareofmyselfmentallyandphysically?

HowamIgonnacopewiththetemptationsofdrugandalcoholuse?Soyou

thinkaboutthat,thenyouwritefor15minutesaboutwhatyourfeaturecould

belike.Threetofiveyearsdowntheroad,ifitwasthewaythatwouldbebest

foryouifyouweretakingcareofyourself.

PC:I'vegoteverysentenceyousay,I'vegotninefollow-upquestions,butI

wanttojustgoonaheadandkeepunspooling.

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JBP:We'llfinishthis,andthenwecanhaveadiscussion.I’dliketodothat.

Youflipthesituationaround.Youthink,"Okay,Ihavealotofavarietyof

faults,andasetofvengefulthoughts,andsomearrogance,andsomedesireto

makethingsworse,andeveryoneknowsaboutthatpartofthemthatwould

godownhilliftheyletit.”Sothenweaskyoutowritefor15minutesabout

justexactlywhatkindofhellyoucouldfindyourselfinthreetofiveyears

downtheroadifyouletallyourbadhabitsandresentments,andsoforthtake

theupperhand.Sothenyoumightstaythatgivespeoplesomethingtorun

awayfrom,andsomethingtoruntowards.You'resortofmaximally

motivated,soyoumightbefacingadifficultdecisioninyourlife,andyou

think,"OhmyGod.Idon'twanttogothroughalltheeffortitwouldtaketo

makethatchange,"andthenthatlittlehellthatyouconjuredupthatyou

mightbeheadingforwillcometomind,andyou'llthink,"Uhoh,Ibetternot

gothere.Ibetterdothedifficultthings,soIcanstayawayfromthatoutcome.”

Andthelasthalfoftheprogramasksyoutotakethepositivevisionandto

articulatewhyit'svaluable.Like,whatareyouaimingfor,morespecifically?

Likewhatarethetopeightgoals,let'ssay?Whywoulditbegoodforyou,if

youattainedthem?Whymightitbegoodforyourfamily?Whymightitbe

goodforthebroadercommunity?Whatarethemicrosteps?Whatarethe

obstacles?

Sopartlyyoudothatbecauseyou'regonnahavedoubtsaboutyourplan,

andotherpeoplearegoingtohavedoubtsaboutit,too.Youneedtohave

morereasonsfordoingitthanyouhavedoubtsaboutwhyyoushouldn'tdoit.

Articulation,writing,reallyhelpswiththatsoyoucanquellthosedemonsin

yourheadthatarealwaystryingtoundermineyourmovementforward.You

canoutarguethembasically,becauseassmartasyoumightbe,youcould

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probablyonlycomeupwithaboutfivesdoubts,andsoifyouhavesixreasons

formovingahead,youwin,andyouwininthediscussionwithsomeoneelse

too.

PC:Soyou'repropelledfromthehell,butyouhaveaheavensotospeak.Just

tokeeptheanalogyclean.You'refreefromsomething,andyou'refreeto

something.

JBP:Exactly.

PC:It'sinteresting—youweretalkingaboutthevirtuesandchangingyour

mindaboutthewaycertaintraitswerelabeledbyothers.WhenIfirstraninto

thedefinitionofhumility,justacoupleyearsago,Ialwaysassumedthe

humilitymeant,"Oh,woeisme.I'mjustalittleworm.Ihavenogiftsand

talents.That'shumble."That'sactuallyafalsehumility.Humilityisthetruth

aboutyourself.NograndiositybutalsoknownoBSabouthowhorribleyou

are.

JBP:Right!

PC:It'sinterestinghowwecanberuthlesswithourselvesinwaysthatwe

wouldneverbewithsomeonewecaredabout.

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JBP:Ohyeah,that'sverycommon.Peoplealmostinevitablyhaveaself-

destructivecritic.Youknow,Freudtalkedaboutthatasthenegativepart,the

tyrannicalsuperego.That'sjustmedownallthetime,andofcourse,you

know,yourflawsmorethananyoneelsedoes.Soyoucanreallygoafter

yourself.

PC:I'msureyou'veheardoftheconceptofcriticsmath.It'sastorytoldby

comedianLarryDavid,thecreatorofTV’sSeinfeldandCurbYourEnthusiasm.

HefoundhimselfataMetsgame,andsomeonesawhiminthestands,and

theyshowedhisfaceonthejumbotron,andyouknow30,000NewYorkers

said,"Larry!Larry!"Youknow,thelocalboywhowenttoHollywood,and

becamehugelysuccessful,andheremembers,(hesaidthisinanarticlein

RollingStoneMagazine)he'swalkingbacktohiscarafter,youknow,feeling

theloveof30,000NewYorkersforhim,andthisgangofyahoosdrivesby,and

theyrecognizehim,andtheysay,“LarryDavid,yousuck!”Guesswhichevent

heruminatedoverforweeks?TheYahoos...completelyobliteratingastadium

fullofpalpableaffectionforhim.

JBP:Yeah!

PC:Ithinkthere'sthere'satemptationtodothat.Sothecritics'mathis99

complements+onecriticism=onecriticism.

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JBP:Well,partofthattooisthatyouknowwe'rewiredupbasicallysothatwe

feelalossofacertainmagnitudemorekeenlythanwefeeljoyatagainofthe

samemagnitude,andthereasonforthatisbecauseweerronthesideof

caution,right?

Somethingthathurtsyoucankillyou;whereassomethingthat'sgoodfor

youcanjustmakeyouhappy,sopainhurtsmorethanpleasurefeelsgood.It's

self-protective,butitcanreallygoastrayinexactlythemannerthatyoujust

described.Peoplealsooftenradicallyunderestimatehowmuchtroubleother

peopleareorarein.Theylookatthemselves,andtheproblemsintheirlife

andthey'reembarrassedaboutit.Theydon'ttalkaboutit,andsotheythink

thateveryoneoutwho'sonthestreetsmiling—whichisonlyatinyfractionof

thepopulation,tobegin,withbecausethere'slotsofpeoplehidingathome—

thosepeoplearewanderingaround,andthey'recompletelysuccessful,and

theydon'thaveacareintheworld,whichyoujusthavetoscratchthesurface

ofsomeone,generallyspeaking,tofindoutthat'sthefarthestthingfromthe

truth.

PC:Yeah,it'spartofthesuccessinthe"Self-authoring"suitewith

underperformingmenandfreshmengenerallyattheundergradlevel.Ispart

ofthesuccessrootedinthefactthattheybegintopickdifferentfriendswhen

theyseetheirownpromise?There'safamousphrasebyJimRohn,"Youare

theaverageofthefivepeopleyouspendthemosttimewith."

JBP:Right,right!

21

PC:DopeoplerecalibratewhodoIwanttohangoutwith?

JBP:Thatshould,yeah,thatshouldhappenwheneveryoumakeabig

transitioninyourlife,right;ifyou’reaimingupward.

PC:Likealcoholicsdon'thangoutatthetavernanymore,andtheyrealizehalf

theirfriendshipswerejustboozebondswhicharenobonds.

JBP:Right,itcouldbealltheirfriendships.Thisisoneofthereasonswhyit's

verydifficulttostopdrinking,becauseyouhavetostopbeingwithallyour

friends;itleavesabigholeinyourlife.ButIthinkwe'vepuzzledoverwhyit

worksbetterformenalot.Partoftheissueisthatonaveragenowmenare

underperformingwomeninmostacademicdomains.Right,fromjuniorhigh

throughuniversity.ButIthinkthatbecausemenandwomenhavedifferent

personalities,menaremoredisagreeablethanwomen;they'renotas

compliant,they'renotascompassionate,they'renotaspolite—although

womenhavehigherlevelsofnegativeemotion.Menaremorewhatwouldyou

callit?morecompetitiveandmoreself-determining,inasense.

PC:Moreovertlycombative.

22

JBP:Yes,exactly,somysenseisthatmenjustwon'tdoanythingunlessit's

theirownplan.

PC:Yeah.

JBP:SoIthinkthat'showitshouldbe.Ifyou'regonnamotivateayoungman,

youdon'tnecessarilysay“Well,youshoulddothis,becauseit'sagoodthing,

oryoushoulddothisforothers.”Somementalresponseaboutthemore

compassionatetypes,butthemorecompetitivetypesandwillsay,“No,I'm

notinterestedinthat.It'slikeI'lljustdowhatIwant.I'mgonnadowhatI

want.”Well,theydon'tknowwhattheywant,sotheyplayvideogames,and

theydon'tgotouniversity,andtheydon'tgotocollege.Butifyougetthemto

thinkthroughwhattheywantandwhythatallofasuddenthat

disagreeablenessisgivenadirection,andthentheycanbeunstoppableunder

thosecircumstances.

PC:CanItiethisbacktothenotionofstoryinlifeasastory?Itseemstome

thatIjustwanttolookatmyownpast,myowntimes,whenIwasverysad,

andsometimesunremittinglysad,maybeevendysthymicdepression-type

sad.Itdidn'tseemtohaveanobjecttoit,andlookingbackatthosetimes,Ifelt

inretrospectlikeI'velostthenarrativethreadofmylife.

JBP:Yes.

23

PC:I'minthestandsandwho'sthat?Oh,that'sPatrick.Waitasecond!I'm

supposedtobeinthegame.I'msupposedtobetheprotagonististhestory.Is

thisacorrectreadingofthetealeaveshere—thatwhenyouloseyour

narrativethreadofyourstory?You'regonnabepronetofeelingdepressed.

JBP:Exactlyright.Lookthere'safundamentalstorywhichissomethinglikea

personwassomewhere,andtheywantedtobesomewhereelsebecauseit

wasbetterandsotheywentthere.That'sthemostbasicstory,andyou're

alwaysinsidethatstorybecauseyou'realwayswhereyouare,whichisn't

quitegoodenough—tryingtogettosomewhereelsethat'sbetter,andyou

havebehaviorsthatwillmakethattransformation,andyouconstrueevery

environmentthroughthatlens.Okay,butthenthequestioniswell,that'syour

story,andit'snestedinsideanotherstory,soyou'redoingthisinterviewin

principlebecauseyouwanttheshowtogowell.Youwanttopostiton

YouTubesolotsofpeoplecanseeit.Youwanttodothat,becauseit'sapublic

service,andbecauseit'llfurtheryourcareer.Youwanttodothatbecause

you'retryingtomakeyourwaythroughlife,andmaybeyou'retryingtobea

goodperson,soeachofthosestoriesisnestedinalargerstory.

Whenthosestoriescollapse,whichiswhathappenswhentheyfail

repeatedly,thehigherthelevelatwhichtheycollapse,thebiggerthepitthat

youfallinto,andthat'samythologicaljourneytotheunderworld.Sothe

meta-storyisyou'reinastory,somethingcomesupandblowsitintopieces,

andthenyoufallintotheunderworld,anddownthere,there'schaos,andhell.

Andthechaospartisjustnotknowingwhichwayisupandbeingswampedby

24

uncertainty,andanxiety,anddepression,andthehellpartisthebitterness,

andresentment,andanger,andhomicidalimpulsesthatsortofsufferingwill

generate.

Thenyouwanderarounddowntherewithanyluckandputyourselfback

togetheryoupull,youknow,youpickupthepieces,andyoumoveon.You

generateanewyouthathaslearnedfromthecollapseifyoucouldmanage

that,andthenyoumovetothenextstageofyourlife.Butourlivesare

punctuatedbythesedescentsofdifferentmagnitudefromorderintochaos.

Order,fragments,chaos,andsometimesthatcanbeenough,soyou'rejust

done,butmostofthetimeit'snot.Youlearnsomethingfromthatdissolution,

maybeyoulearnnottobesoarrogant,sonarcissistic,andyoulearnsome

newskills,youbroadenyourviewpoint,ifyou'vebeenbeatupabit,soyou're

wiser.Youputyourselfbacktogether.Hopefully,you'remorerobustthenext

time,ifyoudidn'tgethurttoobadly.

PC:Couldyousaythattheelixirisinthehell,andyouhavetodothegoldfrom

thedragonthing?I'maveryamateurstudentofJosephCampbell,andThe

Hero'sJourney,andhowitappliestoscreenwriting,andstorytelling,andhe

talksaboutthedescentintotheinmostcavewhereit'sthedarkest.Blake

Snydercallsitthe“whiffofdeath”scene.Everyfilmifyoutimeitjustwithin

fiveminutesofthemidwaypoint,there'llbetheall'slost,“Christonthecross

moment,”itcan'tgetworse.

JBP:Yeah.

25

PC:It'sjusttheutterrockbottom,andthatbecomesthefirstnoteinthisnew

symphony,thisnewacquisitionofhopeandaperspectiveyoudidn'teven

dreamitcouldhave,butthroughgoingthroughthathellaciousexperience.

JBP:Doingthatinamicro-waywhenyougobackintoyourpast,andfind

placesthatarestillbothersome.Thosedescentscanbeofdifferentmagnitude.

Inascreenplaywhichisapseudo-mythologylikeit'sastoryonitswayto

beingamyth.There'sacrisispoint,andifit'satragedy,youknow,thestate

fallsapart,andstaysthatway.Liketheherodoesn'talwaysrecover,right?I

meanyougetastorylikeHamletwherethingsstartoffbadandjustgetworse.

Therewasafamousmusical,"DancersintheDark."Thatwasoutaboutten

yearsago;thatwaslikeareverseBusbyBerkeleymusical,becauseinthe

BusbyBerkeleymusicaleverythingstartedoutprettygoodandgotway

better.Hedidn'tneedtheDepression.ThiswasLarsvonTrierifIremember

correctly,andhestartedoutwiththisgirl,whowasgoingblindandworking

hard,andthingswentfrombadtoworseforherinthemosthorriblepossible

way.Andthenthemovieended!

PC:ItsoundslikeManchesterBytheSea,starringCaseyAffleck.It'samovie

forpeoplewhodon'tcareabouthopeattheendofreallyhorrifyinglysad

movies.They'llnevermakeitintoamusical.ReverseBusbyBerkeleyisagood

metaphor.

26

JBP:Yeah,andsobutthetypicalstoryischallenge,fragmentation,descent,

confusion,andmaybeanencounterwithevil.Then,theacquisitionofnew

wisdom,andmaturationandthereformulationofthenewidentity,andthat's

adeathandrebirth.That'swhypartofthereasonwhythatthere'saveryold

ideathattheRedeemerissomeonewhodiesandisrebornbecausethat's

whatpeoplearedoinginsmallwaysandbigwaysthroughouttheirlifeif

they'regoingtomaintaintheirprogressforward.Youhavetolettheoldpart

ofyouthatisnolongerproperlyalivedie,andthat'spainful.It'sreallyasmall

biologicaldeath,butallowingthattooccurenablessomethingnewtoflourish.

PC:Sodie,notnegotiatewithit,nothaveithangaroundanddistribute;it

mustdie.

JBP:Well,it'scomplicated,becausethere'salwaysaprocessofdeath,butif

youkeepyourselfupdatedonaday-to-daylevel,andyou'rereallyattentive,

thedeathsandrebirthscanbesmallbutcontinual.Thereasonsomethingelse

thatdieisbecauseifyoumakeamistake,thenthewayyoulookedatthe

situationwaswrong.Atminimum,ithastobealteredatitsmicrostructure.

Transformeditsmicrostructuresothatitbecomesanewthing;youhavetolet

theolddieoff.Yeah,it'spainful.Ithinkthat'spartofthereasonwe

experiencedemotionalpain.

27

PC:Iscomingtotermswiththosesmalldeaths—sortofdyingeachday,you

know,Christsaystakeupyourcrossnotweekly,monthly,oryearly,but

daily…

JBP:Yeah.

PC:Canthatleadtoattheendororasecessionofthefearofdeathitself?

Doesthatputyourrelationshipwithdeathondifferentfooting?Becauseit's

beensomewhatdomesticated,becauseyou'vepracticeditandyou'veseenthe

fruitsofit.Doesthatmakesense?

JBP:Yes,absolutely,andIthinktheevidenceforthatisquiteclear.Ifyoutake

peopleandexposethemtothingsthatthey'reafraidofandthatthey're

avoiding—butthesearethingsthatarecausingtroublesintheirlive—you

know,it'snotjustrandomexposuretodanger.Althoughthereareconditions

underwhichthatmightworktoobecausethat'sachallengeyoufindthatthe

morepeopleexposethemselvesvoluntarilytosmalldragons,thebetterthey

getupdealingwithbigones.Thereasonforthatisnotsomuchthatthey

becomelessafraid;it'sthattheyhavemorecourageandabilitythanthey

thought.Theybecomeawarethatthere'smoretothemthantheyknew,andso

youcouldsayinsomesensethatprocessofencounteringtheunknownispart

oftheprocessbywhichyourpossibilityrevealsitselftoyou.Becauseifyou're

averysheltered,youhavenoideawhatyoulike,becauseyouhaven'tbeen

28

tested.You'regonnathinkyou'reharmlessanduselessandit'spossiblethat

you'reneither.

PC:Sometimesitseemsthatwellwecanalsomisgaugetraitsofourselvesthat

we'vealwaysassumedwerenegative,andseethepositivitytherewealsoI

thinkmisjudgeotherpeopleintheirvirtues.Iusedtothinkthatyouwere,you

know,somepeoplewerejustbornpatient.Well,Idon'treallybelievethat;I

thinkthatpeoplewhoarepatientaretheoneswhoaredealingwiththe

feelingsofimpatience,buttheywearthemask.Theydon'tdisplay,"Oh,thisis

soannoying."Whereas,youknow,I'mmore,you'retickingmeoff,soI'lljust

sayit.I'llkindofblurtitout,andtherefore,Ilivewithmyselfasimpatient,but

aren'tthevirtuesthosestrengths,thosepowers,thatkickinthepresenceof

theiropposite,sosomeonewho'schasteischastereallytheyonlyknowthat

whenthey'rewhenthey'reexperiencingsomesexualtemptation,butthey're

sayingnotoit.Therefore,youcan'treallybechastewhenyou'realonesurfing,

orwhenyou'rereadingamagazinesomewhere.

JBP:Right,Ithinkyou'regivensomevirtuesasgifts,buttheycomewiththeir

accompanyingvices.Butyoualsohavetoearnothers.Andsoit'ssomething

thatNietzscheactuallyconcentratedafairbitoninhisdiscussionsofmorality

ascowardice,andNietzschesaidquitefrequentlythatmoralitywas

cowardice,buthedidn'tmeanthatthere'snodifferencebetweenbeingmoral

andbeingcowardly.Whathemeantwasthatifyou'reafraidtodosomething,

thenit'sbesttomaskthatinacloakofvirtue,soifyou'rechastebecause

you'reterrifiedoftheoppositesex,thatdoesn'tconstituteavirtue,butif

29

you'refullyfunctioningsexually,andyou'realsoattractivetopeople—which

isalsoanelementsoyouhavetobesexyanddangeroustosomedegree—and

thenyoudecidethatyou'regoingtotakecontrolofyourself,well,thenthat

constitutesavirtue.Soyeah,thetemptationhastobethereforavirtueto

evenexist.

It’seasyforpeopletodenythat.andsotheyconfuse....Inevergetangry.It's

like,well,thatdoesn'tmakeyoupeaceful;itjustmakesyouweak.Youknow,

soyouhavetobecapableofthevicebeforeyou'recapableofthevirtue.

PC:Andhowmarriagecomplicatesallthis,too.

JBP:Whatareyouthinkingaboutwithregardstomarriage?

PC:I'mthinkingabouthowhelpfulitwouldbeifmywifeweretodothe"Self-

Authoring"suiteaswell.Sowewouldkindofbetrackingthisself-disclosure.

MywifeandIhavethis...I'msureyou'veheardofthis..ifit'snotwrittendown,

itdoesn'texist.Ithasn'twithto-dolists.Well,the"Self-Authoring"suiteseems

likeatobelist.

JBP:Yes,exactly,well,anditisIthinkveryusefulforcouplestohavetoeach

havememberofthecoupleshouldhaveavision,becausethatmaykeepeach

personaliveandinterested.Andthenthereshouldbeajointvisionwhichis

thewaythosetwovisionstiethemselvestogetheracrosstime.Thatiswhat

30

thebondis.You'relayingoutthatstoryacrosstime,andyouhavesomeoneto

reflectitbacktoyouandtoperfectitasyoumovethroughtime.Andthat

givesyoutwobrainswhichisreallyoneofthemajoradvantagestohavinga

stablelong-termrelationshipisthatyouactuallyhavesomeoneyoucouldtalk

to.

PC:Yeah,hencethephrasethe“twobecomeone”wheregetoutofthedual

trackof“I'mforyou,andyou'reforme,”intothatthere'sthismysteriousthird

thingthatwecall“ourlove,”thatalmostTrinitarianbondbetweenyou.Just,

well,havingthesamethingtogether.

JBP:Right,well,oneofmyfriendsfromNorthernAlbertawenttoScandinavia

togetmarried,andtheyhadaninterestingceremony.Ionlyheardaboutit,

butintheceremonythebrideandthegroomheldacandleaboveeachother

jointlyheldacandleaboveeachother'sheads.ItwasaChristianmarriage

ceremony,thecandlesignifiedChrist.Okay,sothequestioniswhatdoesthat

mean?Well,who'sinchargeofamarriage?Themanorthewoman?It'slike

nowrong.Thebetterbeingthatboththemcouldbethat'sinchargeofthe

marriage,andsothat'ssignifiedbythecandle,asymbolofilluminationheld

aloftiswe'rebothsubordinatetoahigherthirdprinciplewhichiswhatwe

couldbeifwegottheinformationflowworkingproperlybetweenus.Because

youcanseemyblindspots.Icanseeyourblindspots.Youcanhelpmelearn

tosee.Icanhelpyoulearntosee,andthetwoofustogetherseeingwillbea

differentbeingthanthetwoofusapartareblind.

31

Andyouneedtoknowthataboutamarriageinordertotakeitproperly

seriously,becauseotherwise,it'smoremerelyanactofconvention.I'mnot

puttingitdownasanactofconvention,oranythinglikethat—itbeatsthe

alternativehandsdown,buttoalsodoitconsciously,andtounderstandthat

younowhavesomeonetowhomyoucanandshouldtellthetruth.Andthen

undergothetransformationsthatwillproduce,becauseitwillproduceplenty

oftransformationsthat'sforsure!

PC:There'sabookaboutthisbyFultonJSheencalled"ThreetoGetMarried."

It'sbeautifullysummarizedbythiscandleheldaloft,andnoticenotequalized

andnotdownonthetablesomewhere.That'salovelytradition.

JBP:Yeah,it'sveryintelligent.It'sassociatedwiththeideaofthecandlesin

theChristmastreewhichis,ofcourse,therebirthoftheSunattheheightat

thedepthsofthewinter.

PDC:Yeah.

JBP:It'silluminationandvision,andbothpeopleshouldbesubordinateto

thoseprinciples.It'sexactlyright.

PC:Andaren’tbothfreedbysubmittingtothathigherthing,becauseIthinka

lotofparentshaveaviewofmarriageisalittlebitaskew.Theirrelationship

32

withtheirkidsisalittlebitaskew.Ifyouthinkofahigherprincipleasyour

bond,thenchildrenactuallycomethirdinthatarrangement,soyou're

dedicatedtothis,toProvidence,toGod,whateverlabelyouwanttoputonit.

Thenyou'reinthatunion;you'reunitedtoyourspouse,andthenbothofyou

areabletoselfdonatetoyourchildren.Ratherthanseparateinvisiblethreads

oflovewhichcanbecutandretried.

JBP:Andmanipulated.Yeah,it'sdefinitelythecasethatwhatthechildneeds

toseewellissomevariabilitybetweentheparents,ofcourse,buttheyneedto

seewhat'sessentiallysomethingmonolithicandunitedbecausechildrenwill

ofcourseseparatelytormenteachparentlookingforcracksinthatunityto

playoffagainstoneanother.

PC:Sure.

JBP:It'spartoftheirsocialexploration,andifthebondbetweenthetwo

parentsisn'tprimaryandelevated,thenthechildrenfindweaknessesandcan

exploitandevendrivewedgesthroughthestructureofthefamily.Theyplay

oneparentoffagainsttheother.

PC:Lookingforcracksinthedam.

33

JBP:Absolutely,theyshoulddothat,becauseit'spartoftheirexploratory

behavior,eventhoughifthey'resuccessfulatit,it'scertainlynotgoodfor

them.

PC:Well,thishasbeenverygoodforme,andIknowit'sbeengoodforour

listeners.IalwayslearnatonwhenIspeakwithyou,Dr.Peterson.Thanksfor

creatingthis"Self-Authoring"suite.Thewebsite,bythewayis

www.selfauthoring.com.I'mgoingthroughitmyself.I'llbejournalingfrom

timetotimewithyouaboutmyprogress,andregress,andhowscary,andfun,

andultimatelyinsightfulitallis.It'salwaysapleasure.Thankssomuchfor

beingagift,andkeeponpunching,andallcharity,ofcourse.

JBP:Yes,well,thankyou.Look,thanksverymuchforthesecondinvitation.It

wasverygoodtalkingtoyou,andassoonasyouhaveitup,letmeknow,and

I'lltweetit,andallthosethings.We'llgetachancetotalkagain.

PC:Thatwouldbegreat.FromyourlipstoGod'sears.Thanksverymuch,Dr.

Peterson.ThisisThePatrickCoffinShow.Stayconnected.Beasaint,whatelse

isthere?

ThisisTransformU.

Inthemeantime,beasaint,whatelseisthere?