Web view6 pages from that bundle ... 21 2011 and by this stage you say that Mr Papa had ... Did you think that was just another word for "drug and. 40

ROYAL COMMISSION INTO TRADE UNION GOVERNANCE AND CORRUPTION

Level 19, 55 Market Street, Sydney, NSW, 2000

On Tuesday, 11 August 2015 at 10.04am (Day 2)

CFMEU FUNDS - BTG D&A

Before the Commissioner: The Hon. John Dyson Heydon AC QC

Counsel Assisting: Ms Sarah McNaughton SC and Mr Thomas Prince

Instructed by: Minter Ellison, Solicitors

.11/08/2015 BTG D&A 142 Transcript produced by DTI

1 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Borgeest? 2 3 MR BORGEEST: One housekeeping matter. Yesterday the 4 Commission received an examination bundle concerning the 5 trustee company, CTDTUR MFI-1, and Mr Knott was shown some 6 pages from that bundle. 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: CTDTUR MFI-1, volume 1. 9 10 MR BORGEEST: I don't need to take you, Commissioner, to 11 these pages, but at pages 29 and 76 from the first volume 12 were shown and those included some personal residential 13 address and contact information for certain directors of my 14 client. The volumes otherwise include, on many occasions, 15 some personal residential and contact information for the 16 directors and preferred parties, so we just seek 17 a non-publication order in the usual terms. 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you very much for making 20 that application. I direct that in what is known as 21 CTDTUR MFI-1, which consists of three volumes of documents, 22 there be no publication of residential addresses and any 23 other personal details referred to. Thank you, 24 Mr Borgeest? 25 26 MR G RICH: May it please the Commissioner, I seek leave 27 to appear on behalf of Mr Colin Huntley who is scheduled to 28 give evidence today. 29 30 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Rich, that leave is granted. 31 32 MR RICH: May I also indicate that both I and my 33 instructing solicitors, Herbert Smith, also advise 34 Lend Lease in relation to this Commission. 35 36 THE COMMISSIONER: Does that mean you actually represent 37 Lend Lease? 38 39 MR RICH: I am not here appearing on their behalf, but as 40 I understand the Practice Direction, we are required to 41 inform the Commission of whether we advise or act for any 42 other party in relation to the Commission and that's 43 what I am seeking to do, but here today I am appearing for 44 Mr Huntley. 45 46 THE COMMISSIONER: Leave to do that is granted, Mr Rich. 47

.11/08/2015 BTG D&A 143 Transcript produced by DTI

1 MR RICH: Thank you, Commissioner. 2 3 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Condon? 4 5 MR M CONDON: Commissioner, I announce my appearance for 6 Mr Ferguson. 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Yes, Ms McNaughton. 9 10 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. I call Peter Chatburn. 11 12 <PETER CHATBURN, sworn: [10.06am] 13 14 <EXAMINATION BY MS McNAUGHTON: 15 16 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Sir, could you please tell the 17 Commission your full name? 18 A. Peter Chatburn. 19 20 Q. And your occupation? 21 A. Civil engineer. 22 23 Q. Have you provided a statement in relation to the 24 matter before the Commission? 25 A. Yes, I have. 26 27 Q. Can I show you this document. Is that a copy of your 28 statement that you've provided? 29 A. Yes, it is. 30 31 Q. That is one-and-a-bit pages, dated 6 August 2015? 32 A. That's correct. 33 34 Q. Is that true and correct? 35 A. That's true and correct. 36 37 MS McNAUGHTON: Could that be received into evidence? 38 39 THE COMMISSIONER: Is there any objection to the receipt 40 of that statement? Mr Chatburn's statement is received 41 into evidence. 42 43 STATEMENT OF PETER CHATBURN DATED 06/08/2015 44 45 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Sir, if I can just take you to aspects 46 of it. You say in your statement you are currently 47 employed by Leighton Contractors Pty Ltd?

.11/08/2015 BTG D&A 144 P CHATBURN (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. That's correct. 2 3 Q. But back in April 2005, you were employed to assist 4 with a contractual claim by the Thiess Hochtief joint 5 venture on the Epping to Chatswood Rail Link Project? 6 A. Yes, that's correct. 7 8 Q. In September of that year, 2005, you were transferred 9 to the role of Construction Director on the project? 10 A. That's correct. 11 12 Q. And you reported to the project director, Mr Michael 13 Deegan? 14 A. That's also correct. 15 16 Q. You say there that there was an incident where a young 17 man died of a heart attack whilst working on the project 18 site. That occurred shortly before you commenced in your 19 role of Construction Director? 20 A. That's correct. 21 22 Q. And you say also that you were transferred into that 23 role partly as a result of the strained industrial climate 24 on the project in the aftermath of the incident? 25 A. That's my belief. 26 27 Q. You also say in paragraph 6 that the project was in 28 a difficult financial position as a result of an ongoing 29 contractual dispute? 30 A. That's also correct. 31 32 Q. And then on 4 September, on or about, you took over 33 from Mr Deegan as the Project Director? 34 A. Yes, 4 September 2006. 35 36 Q. So that was about a year after you started reporting 37 to him? 38 A. That's correct, yes. 39 40 Q. Do you know where he went? 41 A. I think he went to Cabcharge. He left Thiess's 42 employment and went to work for Cabcharge, I believe. 43 44 Q. You then have a heading, "EA negotiations" and you say 45 between October 2005 and early January 2006, you, together 46 with two other people in the Human Resources team, 47 negotiated a second enterprise agreement for the project.


1 2 A. That's correct. 3 4 Q. And that was with a number of unions covering the 5 site, including the AMWU, the AWU, the CFMEU and the ETU? 6 A. That's correct. 7 8 Q. You say "including those unions". Were there more 9 than those four? 10 A. There was only four that I recall. 11 12 Q. You say you dealt with organisers from each of those 13 unions and the ones you name were one person from the AMWU, 14 Mr Doherty from the AWU and Steve Dixon from the CFMEU? 15 A. That's correct. 16 17 Q. Do I take it that you don't remember the person from 18 the ETU? 19 A. That's also correct, yes. 20 21 Q. You say at paragraph 9: 22 23 The negotiations were difficult ... 24 25 And you have indicated there they were difficult because 26 the enterprise agreement had expired mid-project and 27 because of that you had to negotiate with four separate 28 unions and several employee representatives. Just stopping 29 there, why did the fact it was mid-project make it more 30 difficult? 31 A. It's not normal for a project to go so long. 32 Normally, the enterprise agreements negotiated for 33 a project encompass the full term of that project and in 34 this case they'd expired mid-term or mid-project because of 35 the length of the project. 36 37 Q. And you also indicate, as I've just read out, that you 38 negotiated with four separate unions, but also, do we take 39 it, in addition to those unions, several employee 40 representatives over and above the Union? 41 A. There was a team of employee representatives engaged 42 in the negotiations. 43 44 Q. And do we take it from that that they were non-Union 45 employees or not? 46 A. I believe they were both Union and non-Union 47 employees.


1 2 Q. Can you recall how many of those people there were, 3 approximately? 4 A. In the order of 10. 5 6 Q. So about 10 of those people who were not in an 7 official Union capacity and then four Union 8 representatives, is that the position? 9 A. Correct. 10 11 Q. You say you recall the employees had unrealistic 12 expectations of the outcome that could be achieved during 13 bargaining. When you say that, do you mean the 14 representatives from the unions or those other 10 or so 15 people, or all of them? 16 A. My recollection is the 10 or so non-Union employees, 17 or non - that weren't part of the Union. 18 19 Q. You then go on to say the enterprise agreement was 20 ratified on 7 February 2006. You also go on, under 21 the heading of "Payment to the Building Trades Group Drug 22 and Alcohol Committee", to say that there were concerns 23 regarding drug and alcohol issues amongst the workforce 24 during your involvement with the project? 25 A. That's correct. 26 27 Q. How did those concerns come to your attention? 28 A. I recall at least two incidents of drug use on the 29 project. There was one occasion I remember that there was 30 an accusation of an employee smoking marijuana in one of 31 the tunnel cross passages and there was also another 32 occasion where one of the employees registered above the -- 33 34 Q. Sorry, registered -- 35 A. Above the legal limit for alcohol, because at that 36 time I think we had installed self-testing breathalyzers on 37 some of the sites. 38 39 Q. You then go on to say you recall Tom Simpson from the 40 Building Trades Group Drug and Alcohol Committee conducted 41 drug and alcohol awareness training for the project 42 workforce in 2006 and you, indeed, attended one of the 43 training sessions? 44 A. That's correct. 45 46 Q. Before I ask you about your attendance, how did it 47 come about, if you know, that Mr Simpson came to give drug


1 and alcohol awareness training? 2 A. I'm not aware of the details behind the negotiation 3 with Tom Simpson. I just remember that he was actually on 4 site and I do remember that we tried to train all of the 5 employees on the site, so there were a lot of separate 6 training sessions with employees. 7 8 Q. Can I show you, or have made available to you, the 9 Chronological Bundle which I think is MFI-1 and, 10 in particular, if you could turn to page 76. Do you see 11 there what is called a "Tool Box Meeting Record" and that 12 is on the letterhead of Thiess and Hochtief. Do you recall 13 signing such a document? 14 A. Yes, that's definitely my signature; it's a long time 15 ago. 16 17 Q. Your name is second from the end in the second column; 18 correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 21 Q. Do you recall attending a session with Mr Simpson? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. Are you able to indicate from the other names on this 25 document whether or not that was a regular session or an 26 introductory session, or can't you say? 27 A. I've got no - there's no way of knowing what session 28 that would have been. Several of the names there were 29 management, or three of the names were management - four of 30 the names were management and the others I don't know. 31 32 Q. At least four are management? 33 A. That's correct. 34 35 Q. The date on this document is 15 February 2006. Can 36 you recall when those sessions started? 37 A. No. 38 39 Q. Could I now ask you in that same volume to turn to, 40 first of all, page 73. Do you see there there is an email 41 from Robert Thompson of Thiess and it is sent to a number 42 of people and you are copied into it, along with Mr Deegan. 43 Do you see that? 44 A. I do. 45 46 Q. It says: 47


1 Special Project Safety Committee Meeting 2 10:00 AM 15/02/2006. 3 4 "Induction Room" is the "Subject". 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. And then it says: 8 9 On 15/02/2006 THJV ... 10 11 Are those initials "Thiess Hochtief Joint Venture"? 12 A. That's correct, yes. 13 14 Q. Continuing: 15 16 ... have invited the Drugs and Alcohol 17 Foundation representatives from the 18 Building Trades Group, Tom Simpson and 19 Tony Palla, to address the PSC ... 20 21 What's that, the PSC, do you know? 22 A. Project Safety Committee. 23 24 Q. 25 ... on this very important issue as we 26 enter into the next phase of this 27 Project - railworking. 28 29 And it goes on: 30 31 Attendance by a full complement of 32 employees would be seen as imperative ... 33 34 Prompt attendance at 10:00 AM would be 35 appreciated. 36 37 It looks like that that would be the first one, do you 38 agree, around about February -- 39 A. It would appear so, from the email. 40 41 Q. Then would you be kind enough to turn to page 346 of 42 the same volume. Do you see there there is a front cover 43 of a report: 44 45 Thiess Hochtief 46 Occupational Health, Safety & 47 Rehabilitation


1 Performance Report 2 June 2005 3 4 And in fact, following that, there are a number of 5 different reports from different months. For example, July 6 2005 is at page 353 and there's reports following. There 7 is August 2005, page 362, September 2005 at page 370, and 8 do you see at page 370 you're apparently provided with 9 a copy? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. Number 03? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. That would appear to be the first time you are 16 provided with a copy. Does that accord with your 17 recollection? 18 A. It is. 19 20 Q. Then we have one at page 379 where you are provided 21 with a copy, that's October 2005? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. And November 2005 at page 389? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. And 399, December 2005? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. And page 409, January 2006 and then -- 31 A. Sorry, what page was that? 32 33 Q. That was page 409. 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. Then the next one at page 432 is February 2006 and if 37 you go over to page 434 of that February 2006 report, do 38 you see under, "Executive Summary", under (c): 39 40 In this reporting period, the 41 Project Safety Committee met once and the 42 Building Trades Group Drugs and Alcohol 43 policy and procedure was launched to the 44 Project Safety Committee. Widespread 45 training / information sessions by the 46 Building Trades Group commence in 47 March 2006. The Committee is assisting in


1 the implementation of these Policies. 2 3 Does that accord with your recollection? 4 A. Together with the email that you've shown, the minutes 5 of the meeting I signed. 6 7 Q. The next month is March 2006, page 442. As part of 8 that report, do you see at page 444 at paragraph (d): 9 10 In this reporting period, the Project 11 Safety Committee met once and the Building 12 Trades Group Drugs and Alcohol policy and 13 procedures information sessions have 14 commenced Project-wide. 75% complete. The 15 Committee is assisting in the 16 implementation of this Policy. 17 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. And if you turn to page 450, still within this month's 21 report, do you see there a table with the heading in the 22 top left corner "Training Programs"? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. Do you see the last of the sessions on the left-hand 26 column above the "total" is the "Drug and Alcohol 27 Awareness"? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. And it says "Course Duration (Hours)" and it says 31 "1.5". So that would indicate, would it, one and 32 a half hours for each of the sessions? 33 A. It would. 34 35 Q. And "Person Trained to Date" under that column, 36 against "Drug and Alcohol Awareness", is 122? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. And then 183 for "Total Training Hours" and the "Total 40 Training Cost to Date $" and it has "8235". Do you see 41 that? 42 A. Yes, I do. 43 44 Q. Then if we go over to the next month, page 461, 45 of May 2006, do you see there - I am sorry, I skipped 46 April, I am told. I beg your pardon. Can we just quickly 47 go back to April, page 452. That is April 2006 and then


1 the report in relation to that month is at page 459. Do 2 you see there the same sort of table and there's no people 3 apparently who have done the course in that month because 4 the figures remain the same as the previous month at 5 page 450 if you want to compare? 6 A. My page numbers are different to yours. I'm one 7 behind. 459. 8 9 Q. Page 459 is the current month we are looking at 10 of April, but the previous month, page 450, do you see 11 there is the table for the previous month and it's the same 12 figures for the Drug and Alcohol Awareness? They're both 13 up on the screen, if that is of assistance to you? Can you 14 just make it so we can see the page numbers on the screen. 15 Thank you very much. Do you see there page 450 and 16 page 459, relevantly, the Drug and Alcohol Awareness 17 figures are the same? 18 A. 450 is March and 459 is April. 19 20 Q. Correct. Apparently, no-one else did it in that 21 latter month, would you agree? 22 A. That would appear so from the report. 23 24 Q. Then the next month, May 2006, which is page 461, and 25 then do you see at page 468, a few more people have done 26 the course, it would appear; would you agree? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. The numbers are up: 162 are currently trained and the 30 total cost of the training to date is $10,935? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. The next month is July 2006 at page 477 and do you see 34 at page 481 the familiar table? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. And the numbers have gone up slightly. The total cost 38 is now $13,770, and 204 people have apparently been 39 trained? 40 A. I believe those costs are internal costs. 41 42 Q. Right. 43 A. On the basis of the $45 per hour for the number of 44 employees by the hourly - the hours they spent in training. 45 46 Q. So just looking at page 481, just to be clear, 204 47 people have been trained to date, total training hours is


1 306 hours and total cost, and you say internal cost, 2 $13,770? 3 A. I believe that is internal cost. 4 5 Q. Thank you. Just for completeness, going over to the 6 next month, August 2006, starting at page 483, do you see 7 that the numbers in the table at page 487 of that report 8 remain the same for the Drug and Alcohol Awareness? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. And likewise, the report for October 2006, do you see 12 at the table at page 497 the numbers remain the same and 13 then -- 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. So was November, if you would accept from me, and then 17 right over to the last page in the bundle for December, 18 which starts at page 503, but at page 507 we have the same 19 numbers still? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. And that would appear to be the final numbers for that 23 course, for that year at least. Do you know whether they 24 were completed at that time? 25 A. I don't recall. 26 27 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to how these reports we 28 have just been looking at, or at least parts of them, were 29 prepared? 30 A. They would have been prepared by the safety manager, 31 Robert Thompson. 32 33 Q. Thank you. Going back to your statement, at 34 paragraph 13 you say that you understand that on or around 35 13 March 2006 an invoice addressed to THJV was raised by 36 the Building Trades Group Drug and Alcohol Committee for 37 $100,000. How did you come to that understanding? 38 A. That understanding was me sighting a copy of the 39 invoice several months ago when we were requested to 40 produce the invoice by the Commission. 41 42 Q. Was that the first time you -- 43 A. I can't recall actually seeing that invoice before. 44 45 Q. You go on to say: 46 47 I understand that on or around 13 April


1 2006, the invoice was paid. I was not 2 aware of the invoice at the time it was 3 raised or approved. 4 5 A. I wasn't aware of the invoice until some time after 6 that. It was practice for me to review the ledger costs 7 from the previous month, so March ledger costs I would have 8 reviewed in April, so my belief is that I would have become 9 aware of that payment in April. 10 11 Q. Do you say you would have been aware of it when it was 12 raised or when it was paid? 13 A. More likely when it was listed on the ledger which 14 would be some other time. When the invoice was raised and 15 processed, it would appear on the costs ledger and I would 16 have reviewed the costs ledgers sometime early in April, so 17 it's probably a different date to both of those. 18 19 Q. If you accept from me that it was paid on 13 April 20 2006 - actually paid - do you believe you would have become 21 aware of it that month or a month later? 22 A. No, no, more than likely that month. Because the 23 invoice was raised in March it would appear in March's 24 ledger, which would have been then printed and I would have 25 reviewed it in April, but that's my recollection of when 26 I would have been aware of it, but I can't recall the exact 27 date. 28 29 Q. You said in your statement: 30 31 As a result of it being mentioned to me by 32 a staff member in the accounts department. 33 34 A. Yes, that is my recollection of that. Whether -- 35 36 Q. Did you make any inquiry as to what it was for? 37 A. I can't recall a detailed discussion with 38 Michael Deegan or anybody else. I can recall being made 39 aware of the invoice by the accounts department, possibly 40 when I was going through the ledger for that previous 41 month, but I can't recall what prompted that discussion. 42 43 Q. It is a round figure and it is a large figure relative 44 to many other payments. 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. Did either of those two characteristics of that


1 payment make you want to inquire further? 2 A. I really can't remember. I couldn't - until I sighted 3 the invoice recently, I couldn't remember the amount of the 4 payment, but I accept that it is a round number. 5 6 Q. You say, at paragraph 14, during your time as 7 Project Director: 8 9 ... I do not recall any further payments 10 being made to the Building Trades Group 11 Drug and Alcohol Committee. 12 13 A. Yes, that's correct. 14 15 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you, they are my questions. 16 17 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you. Mr Agius, any 18 questions? 19 20 MR AGIUS: No questions. 21 22 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Condon? 23 24 <EXAMINATION BY MR CONDON: 25 26 MR CONDON: Q. Mr Chatburn, I act for Mr Ferguson. 27 I want to ask you a few questions. What were your duties 28 on the Chatswood Rail Link Project? 29 A. In which period? 30 31 Q. In the period of say early 2006? 32 A. 2006, my role was Construction Director, so I was 33 responsible for the day-to-day running of the project, 34 principally the construction activities. 35 36 Q. You told Ms McNaughton that it was your practice to 37 review the costs ledger on a monthly basis? 38 A. That's correct. 39 40 Q. What was the purpose of that review, please? 41 A. The purpose of review was to understand how we'd spent 42 against our budget and also to review our forecast to 43 complete. 44 45 Q. In terms of the first of those two jobs, checking how 46 you had spent, was a purpose of the review to understand if 47 there were any irregular payments?

.11/08/2015 BTG D&A 155 P CHATBURN (MR Condon) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. Yes, it would have been. My principal responsibility 2 was for the construction activities and the construction 3 costs. 4 5 Q. But you told the Commissioner that one of your tasks 6 was to review the ledger on a monthly basis? 7 A. That's correct. 8 9 Q. And a purpose of that review was to root out any 10 payments which you had suspicions about; is that right? 11 A. My role was to look after the construction dollars. 12 There were - the job was divided into sub-projects and the 13 detailed sub-projects, I would review those in some detail 14 with the manager responsible for those items. 15 16 Q. And one of those sub-projects was to review the 17 ledger; is that right? 18 A. That's correct. 19 20 Q. And a purpose was to ensure that there were no 21 irregular payments; correct? 22 A. That payment would not have been receipted into the 23 sub-projects. It would have been receipted in what we 24 termed "the top job" which wasn't my particular 25 responsibility. 26 27 Q. Whose responsibility was it? 28 A. That would have been Michael Deegan's responsibility. 29 30 Q. In all events, in relation to the sub-projects, if you 31 were concerned about an irregular payment, you would have 32 noted it; is that right? 33 A. With respect to the sub-projects, yes. 34 35 Q. Yes, because one of your tasks as Construction Manager 36 was to ensure that payments were being appropriately made; 37 is that right? 38 A. That's correct. 39 40 Q. Did you have a close working relationship with 41 Mr Deegan at the time? 42 A. I had a working relationship. 43 44 Q. Was it close? 45 A. I wouldn't say it was a close relationship, no. 46 47 Q. Lastly - and I apologise, Commissioner, I only have

.11/08/2015 BTG D&A 156 P CHATBURN (Mr Condon) Transcript produced by DTI

1 one copy of this letter - I want to show you a letter of 2 1 September 2006 which Mr Deegan wrote addressed to 3 Mr Ferguson. Can I direct your attention, in particular, 4 to the third paragraph of that letter? 5 6 MR AGIUS: We have produced some extra copies. 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much, Mr Agius. 9 10 MR CONDON: I will provide one to my learned friend and 11 I will make some more copies in due course. 12 13 MR AGIUS: I should add that they were only located 14 overnight, Commissioner. They were not caught by any 15 notice. 16 17 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much for providing them. 18 19 MR CONDON: Q. Have you finished reading the letter? 20 A. Yes, I have. 21 22 Q. Did you see that letter at about the time it was sent? 23 A. I can't recall, but in the last week or so when 24 I reviewed my emails from this period, I have actually seen 25 that. I found a copy of that letter in my emails. 26 27 Q. Is it likely that Mr Deegan would have shown you 28 a draft of that document before he wrote to Mr Ferguson? 29 A. I don't recall; unlikely, I would suggest. 30 31 Q. Did you see it shortly after it was sent, do you 32 think? 33 A. I couldn't tell you. You'd be able to check from my 34 email records. 35 36 Q. Have you checked your email records for the purpose of 37 this inquiry? 38 A. I checked them recently. 39 40 Q. Do you think from that check that you saw that letter 41 at about the time it was sent? 42 A. I don't know; I would have to check the date. 43 44 Q. In all events, in the third paragraph Mr Deegan refers 45 to a number of crises which have plagued the project, 46 doesn't he? 47 A. He does.


1 2 Q. One is safety, is that right? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. And sitting in the witness box now, what is your 6 recollection of the safety crises of which Mr Deegan spoke? 7 A. I can't recall any particular incident in that period. 8 9 Q. Does it accord with your recollection that there were 10 a series of crises which affected the project? 11 A. Certainly early in the project there was. In the 12 period that we are talking, I can't recall - I can't recall 13 any serious safety issues. 14 15 Q. There was a death on the site, wasn't there? 16 A. That would have been August 2005 of that time - around 17 that time. 18 19 MR CONDON: Thank you, Commissioner, that completes my 20 examination. I will tender that letter now, if it is 21 convenient. 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton? 24 25 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, it is the first time that I have seen 26 this letter, but if that could be received into evidence. 27 28 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. That will be Drug and Alcohol 29 Case Study MFI-5 30 31 DRUG AND ALCOHOL CASE STUDY MFI-5 LETTER DATED 01/09/2006 32 WRITTEN BY MR DEEGAN AND ADDRESSED TO MR FERGUSON 33 34 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Cheshire? 35 36 MR CHESHIRE: No, Commissioner. 37 38 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Borgeest? 39 40 MR BORGEEST: No, Commissioner. 41 42 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Rich? 43 44 MR RICH: No, thank you, Commissioner. 45 46 MR W McNALLY: Commissioner, I am seeking leave to appear 47 at the appropriate time for Mr Trevor James Sharp. My name


1 is Bill Mr McNally. I am a solicitor from W G M McNally 2 Jones Staff. 3 4 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr McNally, you have that 5 leave. Do you want to ask any questions of this witness? 6 7 MR McNALLY: No, Commissioner. 8 9 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms McNaughton, any more questions? 10 11 MS McNAUGHTON: Just one. 12 <EXAMINATION BY MS MCNAUGHTON: 13 14 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Sir, the death that occurred, can you 15 recall what the death was as a result of? 16 A. I was on leave at the time, but I believe the 17 gentleman in question had a heart attack and fell off his 18 excavator into one of the retention ponds on the project. 19 It caused a lot of industrial unrest because of the nature 20 of it and there was some inquiry. It would be a matter of 21 public record for the inquiry into that death, but it was 22 proved to be death by natural causes, not an industrial 23 accident. 24 25 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, thank you. They are my questions. 26 27 THE COMMISSIONER: There is no opposition, I take it, to 28 Mr Chatburn being excused? 29 30 MS McNAUGHTON: No. 31 32 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Mr Chatburn, you are excused from 33 any further attendance on the summons that you have 34 responded to in coming here. Thank you very much for 35 coming. You may leave the witness box now. 36 A. Thank you. 37 38 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 39 40 MS McNAUGHTON: I call Colin Huntley. 41 42 <COLIN JAMES HUNTLEY, affirmed: [10.40am] 43 44 <EXAMINATION BY MS McNAUGHTON: 45 46 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Sir, could you please give the 47 Commission your full name?

.11/08/2015 BTG D&A 159 C J HUNTLEY (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI

1 A. Colin James Huntley. 2 3 Q. And your occupation? 4 A. Unemployed. 5 6 Q. Between 1987 and 2013 where were you employed? 7 A. With various group companies within the Lend Lease 8 Corporation. 9 10 Q. During that period were you elected as an employer 11 representative to the Committee of Management of the 12 Construction Industry Drug and Alcohol Foundation? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Before I go on, you have prepared a statement for the 16 Commission? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Can I show you, please, this document and annexures. 20 Is that a copy of the statement, together with annexures 21 referred to within it, that you have prepared? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 24 Q. Is it true and correct? 25 A. It is, yes. 26 27 MS McNAUGHTON: Could that be received into evidence? 28 29 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Huntley's statement with 30 annexures is received into evidence. 31 32 STATEMENT OF COLIN JAMES HUNTLEY TOGETHER WITH ANNEXURES 33 34 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. You say in the preparation of your 35 statement, at paragraph 4, that you have relied on 36 certain minutes of relevant - you have called it CIDAF: 37 that is, the Construction Industry Drug and Alcohol 38 Foundation - meetings and other documents to refresh your 39 memory. 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. And you say: 43 44 I do not otherwise have a clear and 45 independent recollection of all of the 46 events ... 47


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Can we just go through your statement. Under the 4 heading "CIDAF's Role, Activities and Funding" - just to be 5 clear, CIDAF is the Foundation. You say that in 1994, 6 whilst working as a New South Wales Occupational Health and 7 Safety and Rehabilitation Manager for Lend Lease, you were 8 elected as an employer representative to the Committee of 9 Management. Elected by whom? 10 A. The Committee of Management. 11 12 Q. Of what? 13 A. That Foundation, the Construction Industry Drug and 14 Alcohol Foundation. 15 16 Q. Did you put your name forward as an interested person? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. And you say that in about 1996, you were elected to 20 the office of President of that Committee? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. You say you attended and chaired committee meetings 24 and participated in decision making with other members. 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. You say it was a registered charity at the relevant 28 time and you have annexed a copy of the Annual Report to 29 NSW Health for the period July 2010 to June 2011 and that 30 is immediately behind your statement; is that right? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Just going quickly to the first annexure or appendix 34 to your statement, that is at page 10, it is on the 35 letterhead of Foundation House, and it says there: 36 37 The Construction Industry Alcohol, Drug and 38 Gambling Treatment Centre. 39 40 And that is at Rozelle? 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. Can we go over the page. It has an introductory 44 section with some "Background" but towards the bottom of 45 the page under, "Affiliate Program, it says: 46 47 The Building Trades Group Drug and Alcohol


1 Program. 2 3 And it says there: 4 5 The Building Trades Group (the BTG) Drug & 6 Alcohol program (the Program) is 7 a workplace drug and alcohol safety and 8 education program run by the Drug and 9 Alcohol Committee of the Building Trades 10 Group of Unions in NSW, and similar bodies 11 in other States of Australia. 12 13 It is described as an affiliate program. Do you know who 14 prepared the report? 15 A. No, I don't. 16 17 Q. Was Trevor Sharp around at the time of the preparation 18 of this report? 19 A. For the early part of its reporting period he would 20 have been, yes. 21 22 Q. Is that the sort of task that either Trevor Sharp or 23 someone in his role, if it wasn't him, would have had 24 a hand in preparing? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. Was that signed off by the Committee or was it simply 28 tabled at the Committee, or was it not even shown? 29 A. On occasions it was shown to the Committee of 30 Management. 31 32 Q. For its approval or just for its information? 33 A. For its information. 34 35 Q. Thank you. Just returning then to your statement, you 36 indicate there at paragraph 8 that: 37 38 CIDAF operates Foundation 39 House ... a Treatment Centre providing 40 rehabilitation and treatment to 41 construction industry workers and their 42 families with drug, alcohol and gambling 43 problems. 44 45 You say, in paragraph 9, that your understanding of the 46 funding was as set out there. You say: 47


1 (a) contributions made ... pursuant to 2 (EBAs) ... by employers on behalf of their 3 employees. 4 5 You say between the CFMEU and individual employers and you 6 call that the "EBA Contributions"? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. The second type of funding: 10 11 New South Wales Government funding grants. 12 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. The third type: 16 17 Donations from employers and community 18 groups, including the Fairfield RSL and V8 19 Supercars; and 20 21 (d) commissions raised from vending 22 machines and canteens on construction 23 sites. 24 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. Do you have any recollection, just in relation to the 28 venting machines, of who was responsible for putting those 29 on sites or did the person or group responsible for that 30 change over time, or can't you recall? 31 A. My recollection is it was part of a drug and alcohol 32 education program that was delivered to the sites and as 33 part of that education and the program that was adopted by 34 those sites, there was also an agreement that fundraising 35 would be via vending machines that would be marked on those 36 sites. 37 38 Q. In terms of organisation, do you know who organised 39 for those machines to be made available on the sites, or 40 don't you know? 41 A. I don't know. 42 43 Q. You then go on, under a heading "CIDAF's Funding of 44 the BTGDA", and say: 45 46 CIDAF contributed a portion of the EBA 47 Contributions it received to funding the


1 salary of a drug and alcohol Education 2 Officer employed as part of the Building 3 Trades Group D&A program [if I can call it 4 that] a workplace drug and alcohol safety 5 and education program ... 6 7 A. Mmm. 8 9 Q. Where did you get your understanding of that, that 10 CIDAF contributed a portion of the EBA contributions? 11 A. At Committee of Management meetings there was an 12 occasion to sign off authorities for transfers of money to 13 pay a share of that education officer's salary or wage. 14 15 Q. You say as a portion of the EBA contributions. How 16 did you come to that understanding that it was from the EBA 17 contributions, or can't you recall? 18 A. I believed it was from the EBA contributions because 19 it was part of how the funds were raised and it was 20 appropriate that those funds were paying for the Education 21 Officer to deliver back to the sites the education and the 22 program. 23 24 Q. You have indicated there were four groups of sources 25 of funding, if I can put it like that. Is it just your 26 belief that this particular payment came out of the EBA 27 contributions? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. Were you responsible for the actual day-to-day 31 finances of CIDAF yourself? 32 A. No. 33 34 Q. In paragraph 11 you say you can't recall the precise 35 amount of the funding, but you believe it was 50 per cent 36 of the salary of the Education Officer? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. Again, that is a belief. Do you recall how you came 40 to that belief? 41 A. Just from the occurrence of signing off the approvals 42 for the transfer of that money to pay for that 50 per cent 43 salary/wage. 44 45 Q. Have you had opportunity recently to see if you can 46 see any paperwork which supports that recollection? 47 A. No.


1 2 Q. So you are now operating on a recollection of several 3 years ago, is that right, and you've indicated earlier that 4 you don't have a clear and independent recollection of all 5 the events other than - I am sorry, I will withdraw that. 6 At paragraph 4, you have said you have used documents to 7 refresh your memory and you don't otherwise have a clear 8 and independent recollection of all the events? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Would that fall into a category where your memory is 12 not clear? 13 A. No. I have a recollection of signing off on the 14 transfer of the money and of it being 15 a 50 per cent - a half share of the wage or salary. 16 17 Q. What type of document are you referring to, can you 18 recall? 19 A. No, I can't recall. 20 21 Q. Well, when you say you have a recollection of signing 22 off, what is it that you are recalling? 23 A. It was a document, an authority, or a cheque to sign 24 off the transfer or approval for the transfer. 25 26 Q. So you can't recall if it was like an approval -- 27 A. No, I can't. 28 29 Q. -- or a cheque, or something different? 30 A. I can't. 31 32 Q. At paragraph 12 you say: 33 34 On several occasions in late 2010 and 2011, 35 Trevor Sharp, the Executive Officer of 36 CIDAF, privately informed me ... 37 38 Of a number of matters, and you set out your recollection 39 there. 40 A. Mmm. 41 42 Q. If you could indicate to the Commission, in your own 43 words, those five matters that you have in your statement 44 there? 45 A. Well: 46 47 (a) that he believed that the proportion


1 of EBA Contributions being provided to the 2 BTGDA by CIDAF was too high; 3 4 (b) that these funds could be better used 5 by Foundation House; 6 7 (c) that the BTGDA should be wholly funded 8 by the CFMEU, and not by contributions paid 9 by CIDAF; 10 11 (d) that in previous years, the then 12 Secretary of the CFMEU NSW, 13 Andrew Ferguson, had put him under intense 14 pressure to maintain or increase CIDAF's 15 funding of the BTGDA; and 16 17 (e) that if CIDAF did not do what the 18 union wanted, Ferguson had told him that 19 the union would or might withdraw its 20 support for CIDAF in whole or part. 21 22 Q. You have indicated there that it is "words to the 23 effect". Do we take it from that that you can't remember 24 the precise words used by Mr Sharp? 25 A. Not the precise words, no. 26 27 Q. But you are indicating to the Commission, are you, 28 your best recollection of the effect of what he said? 29 A. What was the question again? 30 31 Q. You are indicating to the Commission, are you, your 32 best recollection of the effect of what he said? 33 A. My recollection of what he said, yes. 34 35 Q. So if he used slightly different words, you wouldn't 36 be in a position to say that the words were or were not 37 used? 38 A. This is my recollection of the conversation. 39 40 Q. But not word for word? 41 A. Not word for word, no. 42 43 Q. And you go on to say at paragraph 13: 44 45 I understood Mr Sharp's final point to mean 46 that if CIDAF did not continue to split EBA 47 Contributions with the BTGDA, the CFMEU NSW


1 might take steps to reduce the funding 2 available to CIDAF, including preventing it 3 from receiving vending machine and canteen 4 commissions, or amending the terms of EBAs 5 so as to reduce contributions paid to 6 CIDAF. 7 8 That's a firm recollection you have? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Again, are you able to recall the precise words in 12 relation to that paragraph, or that's what you take away 13 from -- 14 A. It's my recollection of what was said. 15 16 Q. Did you make a note at the time? 17 A. No. 18 19 Q. The first time you have been asked to write it down, 20 when was that? 21 A. In the preparation of this statement. 22 23 Q. So this year? 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. In the last, what, few weeks? 27 A. Months. 28 29 Q. Months. Was that the first time you went back to try 30 and recollect what had occurred between you and Mr Sharp on 31 this topic in late 2010 and 2011? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. And you go on in paragraph 14: 35 36 I did not have any dealings directly with 37 the CFMEU NSW in relation to these 38 matters ... 39 40 And your understanding was based entirely on matters 41 communicated to you by Mr Sharp, and that's the position? 42 You then go on to say that based on your discussions with 43 other members of the Committee of Management at the time, 44 and they, in particular, were Mrs Bellear and Mr Seidler, 45 you believe that Mr Sharp had raised similar matters with 46 them, but you say you do not recall those discussions 47 clearly?


1 A. No. 2 3 Q. At paragraph 16, you say you weren't concerned by 4 these matters at the time because you believed the 5 contributions, you say, being provided by CIDAF to the 6 BTGDA were used by the BTGDA "to fund drug and alcohol 7 education", and that was consistent with the objectives of 8 CIDAF and Foundation House? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Are you able to indicate why you believed those 12 contributions that you say were being provided by CIDAF to 13 the BTGDA were being used in that fashion? 14 A. Because that Education Officer out of the BTG was 15 providing an education service to construction workers 16 across construction sites. 17 18 Q. How did you know that he was doing that? 19 A. I'd seen him on various construction sites delivering 20 that education and that program. 21 22 Q. You also go on to say at paragraph 17: 23 24 I was also aware that Mr Sharp (himself 25 a rehabilitated drug addict) was 26 a passionate supporter of Foundation House 27 and I believed that he was raising these 28 matters because he was concerned to 29 maximise the funds available to 30 Foundation House. 31 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. You say you saw someone on the sites, that is what you 35 have just indicated. Can you recall who that was? 36 A. Tom Simpson. 37 38 Q. You also go on to say, at paragraph 18, you understood 39 Mr Sharp's position in that respect and you thought it was, 40 nevertheless, important to retain the CFMEU NSW's support 41 for Foundation House: 42 43 ... and that any back and forth between 44 Mr Sharp and Mr Ferguson was simply 45 a result of the fact that there were two 46 drug and alcohol programs each competing 47 for limited funds.


1 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. What made you come to that view that there were two 5 drug and alcohol programs, each competing for limited 6 funds? 7 A. Because that Education Officer was being 8 part-funded - half-funded by the Foundation and the other 9 half was being funded by the BTG and those education 10 services that were provided by the Education Officer were 11 doing some fundraising of their own. 12 13 Q. When you say there were two drug and alcohol programs, 14 can you just indicate to the Commission which were the two? 15 A. So one is with the Education Officer that we've 16 already spoken about, so that was on construction sites, 17 delivering education, and also talking about what treatment 18 services and rehabilitation were available, and that leads 19 to the other program, which is more a rehabilitation and 20 treatment program, and they're the services that the 21 Foundation was operating. 22 23 Q. So your belief was that Mr Simpson was being funded in 24 part by Foundation money and in part by BTG money? Was 25 that your understanding at the time? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. Do you know how you came to that understanding? 29 A. Well, two parts. As we've discussed already, my 30 knowledge of the transfer of a share to pay that wage or 31 salary and then discussions at the Committee of Management 32 about grants, funding and applications that were being made 33 and from time to time it was talked about that education or 34 the BTG applying for some of those types of donations, 35 funding, grants, whatever was available. 36 37 Q. Just to be clear, when you say "BTG" do you mean 38 BTG D&A, is that what you mean, or do you -- 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. When you have used the term "BTG", you mean the 42 Building Trades Group Drug and Alcohol Committee? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Did you ever personally look at bank accounts for 46 either the Foundation or the BTG D&A Committee, the bank 47 statements?


1 A. I recall Foundation bank statements being tabled at 2 Committee of Management meetings. 3 4 Q. Did you ever study them? 5 A. Not in any detail. 6 7 Q. Do I take it from those two answers that you did not 8 see the statements of the BTG Drug and Alcohol Committee? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. In fact, do you believe you would have had any 12 particular entitlement to see those bank statements? 13 A. No. 14 15 Q. You then go on under a heading "Kamper & Co 16 Supplementary Audit". You say at paragraph 19: 17 18 In or around August or September 2010, the 19 COM became aware that Mr Sharp had suffered 20 a relapse and was undergoing treatment. 21 22 And there was some concern about whether he could resume 23 his responsibilities as Executive Officer of CIDAF. Just 24 stopping there, did you understand that Mr Sharp also had 25 a role in relation to the BTG D&A Committee? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. What was your understanding of his role in relation to 29 that? 30 A. Had some line of sight across those services. 31 32 Q. Did you understand that they were operated out of the 33 same geographical location, so far as he was concerned? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. You go on in your statement, in the last sentence of 37 paragraph 19: 38 39 The issue of Mr Sharp's condition was an 40 evolving one and occupied a significant 41 amount of my time in 2010 and 2011. 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. You then on to say that Mr Sobb, the CEO of Fairfield 45 RSL and a Committee of Management Member, was particularly 46 concerned about Mr Sharp, and you go on to say that he had 47 a view about abstinence and did not support Mr Sharp's


1 treatment with methadone. Do you recall all of that? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. You also say that he'd informed you that Mr Sharp had 5 contacted him and raised concerns regarding the flow of 6 funds through CIDAF to the BTGDA, as a result of which 7 Mr Sobb wanted there to be a comprehensive "forensic audit" 8 of CIDAF's financial affairs and transactions undertaken by 9 a suitably independent accountant, and that he or Fairfield 10 RSL was happy to meet the associated costs. Do you see 11 that? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. You also say you recall Mr Knott was opposed to that 15 proposal. You then go on to say that Mr Sobb resigned. Do 16 I take it that the Committee of Management did not vote in 17 favour of Mr Sobb's suggestion? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. It was more than Mr Knott that was opposed to that 21 proposal, do I take it from that? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. Can you recall who was opposed to it? 25 A. No. 26 27 Q. But presumably it was a majority of the Committee of 28 Management? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. You have annexed a letter of Mr Sobb's resignation to 32 your statement? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. Just for completeness, page 20, that is 3 February 36 2011? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. In paragraph 21 it goes on: 40 41 At a meeting of the COM on 16 February 42 2011 ... 43 44 So that is after Mr Sobb has resigned: 45 46 ... it was resolved to engage Kamper & Co 47 chartered accountants ... to conduct


1 a "supplementary audit" of the period 2 commencing from the end of the last 3 financial year. 4 5 Just to be clear, from July 2010 up to the present date, as 6 at that time; is that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. You say you have annexed a copy of the minutes and you 10 have marked that Annexure 3. 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. You say that it is your recollection that 14 a supplementary audit was commissioned and it is presumed 15 that Kamper & Co did that supplementary audit; is that 16 right? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Then you go on at paragraph 22: 20 21 The audit was not prompted by any concern 22 about any misappropriation of EBA 23 Contributions ... 24 25 At that time, is that right? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. You say you continued to believe they were being paid 29 by CIDAF to the BTGDA, or the Building Trades Group Drug 30 and Alcohol Committee: 31 32 ... and made no findings in that regard. 33 34 And then the Kamper & Co report was received? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. You say that that is referred to in the minutes at 38 Annexure 4. Do you see there at page 23, I think it is 39 item 5: 40 41 Independent Financial Report. 42 43 Do you see that? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. And those minutes were subsequently adopted as 47 correct; is that right?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. You then go on under a heading "Concerns regarding 4 CIDAF's solvency". 5 6 You say: 7 8 From about February 2011, the COM began to 9 be quite concerned about CIDAF's financial 10 position and solvency ... 11 12 And that was particularly following the Fairfield RSL's 13 decision to discontinue its regular donations to CIDAF and 14 also you say as a result of a need to secure ongoing 15 funding from the Department of Health? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. Was that problem with the Department of Health 19 anything to do with Mr Sharp not being available to put in 20 the requisite application? 21 A. No. 22 23 Q. What was that about? 24 A. It was, if I recall correctly, about processing the 25 application and where the Health Department was up to with 26 recurrent funding budgets for all of those things and 27 reassessing what they were wanting to do. 28 29 Q. You then go on at paragraph 24 to indicate that at the 30 31 March 2011 meeting, there was a report of an operating 31 deficit of over $50,000. 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. And that that was discussed at length and you have 35 annexed the relevant minutes in relation to that? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. That is Annexure 5. That is I think item 4 at 39 Annexure 5 at page 25; is that right? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. Then it goes on in your statement at paragraph 25: 43 44 By June 2011, the COM had determined to 45 make Mr Sharp redundant ... Tony Papa 46 agreed to take on a management role in his 47 place.


1 2 That is in relation to Foundation House so far as your 3 concern was; is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. And he was, that is, Mr Papa, the CFMEU New South 7 Wales representative on that committee? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. And he was given the day-to-day responsibility for 11 running Foundation House? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. So that was a temporary appointment in the first 15 instance, was it? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. And then you have referred to those minutes there at 19 Annexure 6. Then you say there was an Annual General 20 Meeting - paragraph 26 of your statement - on 9 November 21 2011 and by this stage you say that Mr Papa had become an 22 employee of the Foundation on a contract basis? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. In the course of updating the meeting, you say that 26 Mr Papa noted that Laytins Mayfair Pty Ltd was no longer 27 collecting EBA contributions and they would instead be 28 collected by Coverforce? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. And that they were already collecting other 32 contributions under CFMEU New South Wales' EBAs? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. And you refer to the minutes at Annexure 7 which is at 36 page 30 of your statement. You indicate Mr Papa said words 37 to the effect that, "Coverforce would more actively pursue 38 employers for payment of EBA contributions." 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. If you go to page 34 of your statement, which is part 42 of Annexure 7, do you see there just above the heading, 43 "General Business", under the heading "Updates on Recent 44 Developments", it says: 45 46 T Papa will be sending out donation 47 requests for to several clubs to try to


1 secure more funding. Laytins Mayfair are 2 no longer collecting ACIRT contributions. 3 Coverforce will be assisting with the 4 administration. 5 6 You have indicated something further in your actual 7 statement above what is recorded in the minutes. Is that 8 an independent recollection that you have in relation to 9 Coverforce more actively pursuing employers? 10 A. Yes, that's my recollection. 11 12 Q. Do you recall who was paying Mr Papa's wages, all or 13 part of them? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. And who was that? 17 A. CFMEU. 18 19 Q. Can you recall what percentage of those wages, to your 20 knowledge? 21 A. All of them. 22 23 Q. And what makes you have that belief or recollection? 24 A. As part of the process of engaging Mr Papa in the role 25 to take up where Trevor was not there, there was 26 a discussion about his payment and that he would be 27 fulfilling the role on secondment from the CFMEU. 28 29 Q. Where was that discussion held or where did it take 30 place? 31 A. In the board meeting. 32 33 Q. Of Foundation House? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. Was there someone there authorised to speak on behalf 37 of the CFMEU in relation to the issue, or did separate 38 discussions have to occur, according to your recollection? 39 A. Separate discussions - no, I think Mr Knott put it 40 forward that the secondment arrangement short-term could 41 work. 42 43 Q. Just going back to the same minutes we have just been 44 looking at, at page 30, that is the first page of 45 the minutes of 9 November 2011, do you see the fourth line 46 from the bottom of that page: 47


1 Mr M Knott resigned formally from his 2 position of Treasurer and Member of CIDAF. 3 4 That apparently occurred at this meeting? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. It is apparent that he's not present; is that right? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. He's not present. This is the AGM. Is that an 11 indication of a record of his resignation? 12 A. What are you referring to now? 13 14 Q. He's not there at the AGM. Does that indicate he has 15 resigned at some earlier time, to your recollection? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. Do you have before you the Chronological Bundle? It 19 is a lever-arch folder with that title on its front cover. 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Could you go please to page 209. Just to indicate, 23 that is the first page of minutes of a Committee of 24 Management meeting on 4 October at 2011. Do you see that? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. And then over the page, page 210, do you see that it 28 is recorded at item 5: 29 30 COM was given a copy of Mr Knott's letter 31 of resignation. 32 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. And indeed it would appear, even at that meeting, that 36 he was not present? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. And indeed at page 208 of that same bundle, just a few 40 pages earlier, there is the letter of resignation, it would 41 appear, from Mr Knott. 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. That is dated 4 October 2011? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. Does that assist you in recalling who it might have


1 been that you can recall someone spoke to or the Committee 2 was speaking to in relation to Mr Papa's payments? 3 A. Well, it clarifies the timeline. 4 5 Q. Do you believe it was Michael Knott, or do you not 6 have a recollection? 7 A. Reviewing the documents, it couldn't have been at that 8 meeting, no; he had already resigned. 9 10 Q. Do you have a clear recollection of how it came about, 11 to your recollection, that Mr Papa's salary was being paid 12 for by the CFMEU? 13 A. Just that, the discussion about the secondment 14 arrangement. 15 16 Q. If we go on, we have just seen at paragraph 25 that 17 Mr Papa had agreed to take on a management role back at 18 June 2011, and that was, I think, on that temporary basis. 19 Does that assist you in recalling whether or not there was 20 some sort of discussion back then and, if so, did that 21 temporary discussion flow on to a more permanent discussion 22 in terms of Mr Papa's employment conditions and his 23 payment? 24 A. Yes, that seems to clarify it, so back in the June 25 of '11. 26 27 Q. What does it clarify? 28 A. That it was - the temporary role that was offered to 29 Mr Papa back in the June of '11, three months, where the 30 secondment arrangement would have been discussed and it was 31 probably at that meeting. 32 33 Q. But do I indicate from the use of your word 34 "probably", you don't have a clear recollection? 35 A. No, I don't have a clear recollection. 36 37 Q. Going on, initial dealings with the CFMEU New South 38 Wales at paragraph 28, you say: 39 40 At some point towards the end of 2011 41 (I believe it was in November or December), 42 I came to understand that the BTGDA was 43 receiving EBA Contributions directly, and 44 that some of these funds were being paid 45 into a BTGDA bank account administered from 46 Foundation House. 47


1 Just stopping there, do you mean geographically 2 administered from Foundation House, is that what you intend 3 to convey by those words? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. You say you believe it was Mr Seidler who'd obtained 7 a copy of the CFMEU NSW EBA - sorry, a copy of a CFMEU NSW 8 EBA which provided for the payment of EBA Contributions 9 directly to the BTGDA and you had previously understood 10 that these were to be paid to CIDAF. Do we take it from 11 what you have indicated there is that is the first time you 12 had started to learn about this? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. You say you recall it was Mr Papa who informed the 16 Committee of Management of the existence of the BTGDA 17 account, and do you mean by that the account that was 18 receiving the contributions from the EBA, is that what you 19 mean by that when you say "the BTGDA account"? 20 A. What paragraph are you referring to? 21 22 Q. It is in the middle of paragraph 28, the bottom of 23 page 5 up to the top of page 6. 24 A. No, I was referring to an account that Mr Papa 25 referred to that was holding a term deposit sum of money. 26 27 Q. You go on to say: 28 29 This occurred during a meeting of the COM, 30 I believe in November or December 2011. It 31 was in the context of discussion concerning 32 the solvency of Foundation House, in which 33 Mr Papa said words to the effect that the 34 BTGDA was holding EBA Contributions in 35 a bank term deposit account administered 36 from the Foundation House office. He also 37 said that he was a signatory to the 38 account. 39 40 And you cannot otherwise recall details of the discussion. 41 So, sitting there today, can you recall any further 42 details, or does that indicate the sum total of what you 43 can recall? 44 A. That's what I can recall. 45 46 Q. You say that was the first time you became aware that 47 the BTGDA was directly receiving EBA contributions?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. And prior to that you believed that the EBA 4 contributions were made directly to CIDAF. Do I take it 5 from that then that the transfers that you recall making 6 had been at some earlier time, not at this time? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. And how much earlier? 10 A. Oh, some time earlier. Years. 11 12 Q. Are you able to put any number of years? 13 A. No. 14 15 Q. But some time? 16 A. Some time, some years. 17 18 Q. You then say you were concerned to find out how and 19 why they had been receiving those contributions, and you 20 believed that CIDAF may have been entitled to them? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. And you were concerned about his position, that is, 24 Mr Papa's, given his involvement in the affairs of CIDAF as 25 an employee: 26 27 The CFMEU NSW and the BTGDA (given that he 28 was apparently a signatory to [that] 29 account). 30 31 Did you learn he was a signatory from viewing banking 32 documentation or only from what he had said to you? 33 A. Only what he had said to the Committee. 34 35 Q. You say on 7 December the Committee of Management 36 determined to ask the Building Trades Group of unions, and 37 you have different initials there: 38 39 ... to inform it of the total dollar value 40 of all funds collected via the 'EBA Safety 41 Program' clause in the last two financial 42 years, as well as which account the money 43 was paid into and where it was transferred. 44 45 You have referred to some minutes there and they're at 46 page 35 or Annexure 8 to your statement. 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. Have you taken the words from your statement from 3 the minutes of the meeting, have you, or based on 4 the minutes of the meeting? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. You then write a letter that Mr Seidler wrote to 8 Mr Parker and you have annexed that letter at Annexure 9? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. That was 12 December 2011. You then say that he 12 responded on 19 December and you have annexed that letter 13 to your statement. And you say further at paragraph 33: 14 15 Ms Mallia and Kylie Price of the CFMEU NSW 16 attended a COM meeting on 20 December 2011. 17 18 And you have annexed the minutes to that meeting at 19 Annexure 11? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Have you indicated from what was recorded in 23 the minutes - you have used those words to ground the words 24 in your statement, have you? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. On page 7, you go on, in light of CIDAF's ongoing 28 financial difficulties, Kamper & Co were requested to 29 urgently inquire as to its financial status, if I can 30 paraphrase, and the focus was at CIDAF's ability to 31 continue to operate as a going concern? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. You say that that report was presented at a meeting, 35 and you have annexed those at Annexure 12; is that right? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. Page 44. Can I ask you about that. There is a figure 39 at item 3. It is recorded in these minutes: 40 41 BTGDA unanimously agreed at a meeting on 42 20 December 2011 to make available $53,700 43 from term deposit on maturity to CIDAF 44 subject to favourable report from 45 Auditors Kamper Associates. 46 47 How did you learn about what the BTGDA had unanimously


1 agreed? 2 A. From Tony Papa. 3 4 Q. Are you working that out just by a process of 5 elimination or because you have an independent recollection 6 of it? 7 A. I have a recollection of him reporting to the meeting. 8 9 Q. That figure? 10 A. And that meeting. 11 12 MS McNAUGHTON: Is that a convenient time? 13 14 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The hearing will resume at 15 11.45am 16 17 SHORT ADJOURNMENT 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton. 20 21 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. 22 23 Q. Sir, we were at page 7 of your statement, towards the 24 end. The next heading is, "Further dealings with CFMEU 25 New South Wales". 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. And you have indicated there what the minutes of the 29 22 December 2011 meeting show and you've got that 30 information from those minutes as well, have you? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. You say in paragraph 37 that you recall at about this 34 time, that is, 22 December 2011, that certain Committee of 35 Management members requested Mr Papa provide the Committee 36 of Management with details of the accounts in which the 37 BTGDA held EBA contributions and how those contributions 38 were used, and that he said they were the BTGDA's business 39 and that you would have to speak to Mr Parker about them. 40 That is a clear recollection, is it, of that conversation 41 with Mr Papa? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. At paragraph 38, on the next page, page 8, you, 45 essentially, annex a copy of Mr Parker's reply to 46 Mr Seidler's letter and that is at Annexure 13? 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. At paragraph 39 you say that: 3 4 Mr Parker and Ms Mallia attended a COM 5 meeting on 27 January 2012. 6 7 And you have annexed the minutes of that meeting at 8 Annexure 14. 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. That is at page 48. And it looks like you have used 12 words from those minutes in your statement in relation to 13 being disappointed and the like. Do you see that? That is 14 at item 4 of the minutes. 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Then at paragraph 40 you say you weren't satisfied 18 with Mr Parker's response which had been, as recorded in 19 the minutes, that the funds were used to pay wages for 20 safety representatives and for safety purposes on building 21 sites, but as the CFMEU as yet have not totally gone 22 through their accounts after management changes, they 23 cannot give any further information. You say you weren't 24 satisfied with that response at paragraph 40? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. You say in particular you were concerned that EBA 28 contributions, which had previously, you say, been directed 29 towards drug and alcohol rehabilitation services and 30 education, were now being used for unspecified safety 31 related initiatives and you were also concerned that there 32 was no way to objectively verify how those funds had been 33 spent? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. At paragraph 41 you then indicate: 37 38 At the meeting on 27 January 2012 ... 39 40 That's the meeting that Ms Mallia and Mr Parker had 41 attended: 42 43 ... the COM expressed concern that 44 John Baldwin, the manager of Foundation 45 House, was a member of the BTGDA. 46 47 Do you recall that?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. At paragraph 42: 4 5 At a meeting of the COM on 29 February 6 2012, the COM passed a motion ... 7 8 As you have indicated there and is that set out in 9 the minutes that you have annexed at Annexure 15 at 10 page 52? Do you see there at item 4 under the heading 11 "Motion" - do you see that: 12 13 The CIDAF Committee of Management is 14 extremely disappointed that the $53,700 15 that was promised by CFMEU has not 16 materialised into CIDAF accounts. 17 18 It says there that it was promised by the CFMEU, but do you 19 earlier recall that it was spoken of in slightly different 20 terms? For example, if you go back to page 45 of the 21 annexures to your statement, it is part of Annexure 12, you 22 have reflected this in your statement too, do you see the 23 third motion underlined from the bottom of that page: 24 25 That the CIDAF accept the BTGDA 26 contribution of $53,700 ... 27 28 So there was BTGDA, yet, on page 52 it is the CFMEU. Can 29 you recall how that came about or can't you recall beyond 30 what the minutes state? 31 A. The recollection would have been the reference to the 32 CFMEU is to Brian Parker. 33 34 Q. Where do you understand the $53,700 was coming from? 35 Was that the BTG D&A Committee or the CFMEU, or what was 36 the position? 37 A. The BTG. 38 39 Q. What had Mr Parker to do with that Committee and that 40 amount of money, in your mind? 41 A. Well, at the meetings or through correspondence he'd 42 given an undertaking of that money being paid back to the 43 Foundation. 44 45 Q. Is that your understanding? 46 A. That's my recollection. 47


1 Q. Mr Parker, you say? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. He was at that meeting, we've seen earlier. You say 5 that that occurred at that meeting, did you, or some other 6 time; that's the meeting on 27 January? 7 A. Meetings or letters. 8 9 Q. But you say that somehow you got that understanding 10 from something that you had learnt from Mr Parker, is that 11 what you are saying? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. Then you say, in paragraph 43, Mr Parker, on 2 March 15 2012, wrote to Mr Papa: 16 17 ... in response to the COM motion ... 18 19 And you have annexed that at Annexure 16 and that is at 20 page 54 of your annexure. 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. He says there: 24 25 I am not aware that the CFMEU has made any 26 promise that the amount of $53,700 be 27 transferred to CIDAF. I also reject that 28 the COM is being treated with contempt by 29 the CFMEU. As you would understand there 30 has been a very serious situation develop 31 in the industry with the collapse of 32 Kell & Rigby and the potential collapse of 33 Reed Group that has occupied the time of 34 the Union Executive as it affects the 35 entitlements and jobs of thousands of 36 subcontractors and workers. 37 38 And he goes on: 39 40 However, our understanding that the BTG 41 Drug and Alcohol Committee had decided, 42 without input from the CFMEU current 43 Executive, to assist CIDAF in the amount of 44 $53,700 subject to the report of 45 Steve Kamper. 46 47 Does that accord with your recollection in terms of the


1 BTG D&A Committee being the body that had indicated at one 2 point that $53,700 might be transferred across to 3 Foundation House? 4 A. What's the question again? 5 6 Q. Does that accord with your recollection, what 7 Mr Parker has set out, where he said he was not aware that 8 the CFMEU had made any promise, and that his understanding 9 was the BTG Drug and Alcohol Committee had decided to 10 assist? 11 12 MR RICH: I object, Commissioner. It is unclear what the 13 witness is actually being asked. He seems to be being 14 asked whether a document accords with his recollection and 15 whether it does or not is no doubt a matter for the 16 Commission. That is a question that shouldn't be asked of 17 the witness. He can be asked what his recollection is. He 18 seems to have been asked that already. Where is this 19 going? 20 21 THE COMMISSIONER: The way I am hearing it, it is 22 attempting to ascertain whether Mr Parker's letter of 23 2 March accurately states recent events. I would have an 24 objection to the question, which is it is rather hard to 25 understand and it has multiple components in it, but 26 I reject your objection and I proffer my own. 27 28 MR RICH: Thank you, Commissioner. 29 30 MS McNAUGHTON: I will rephrase it. 31 32 Q. Having read that portion of the letter -- 33 34 THE COMMISSIONER: I think if you could just take 35 proposition by proposition. 36 37 MS McNAUGHTON: Certainly. 38 39 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. You have read that letter, 40 obviously, Mr Huntley, just sitting there now? 41 A. Yes. The CFMEU letter? 42 43 Q. Yes, from Mr Parker of 2 March to Mr Papa? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. He says, in effect, "The CFMEU made no promise to 47 transfer $53,700 to CIDAF". Is that true, in your


1 recollection? 2 A. My recollection was there was an undertaking from 3 Mr Parker. 4 5 MS McNAUGHTON: That probably answers it, thank you, 6 Commissioner. 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: There are obviously many, many 9 statements by Mr Parker in that letter that are very 10 probably correct, but are there any controversial or 11 factual statements by Mr Parker? 12 13 MS McNAUGHTON: Not that I need the witness to answer. 14 15 Q. Back to your statement if I could take you, please. 16 At page 8 you have a heading, "Resignation from the COM". 17 You say at paragraph 44: 18 19 Following the receipt of Mr Parker's 20 letter, I considered my position ... to 21 have become untenable on the COM ... 22 23 As a result of two factors that you have indicated there. 24 The first: 25 26 (a) failure to fully disclose how EBA 27 Contributions had been collected and 28 distributed; and 29 30 (b) refusal to transfer CIDAF the $53,700 31 in EBA Contributions held by the BTGDA. 32 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. So you resigned? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. I think you have annexed your resignation to your 39 statement. You certainly annex some of the other people 40 that resigned and then yours is at page 59, the last 41 page of the bundle. 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. Is there anything else you need to add in relation to 45 the motivation behind your resignation, apart from what you 46 have set out there? 47 A. No.


1 2 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. They are my questions. 3 4 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Agius? 5 6 <EXAMINATION BY MR AGIUS: 7 8 MR AGIUS: Q. There is only one issue I want to take up 9 with you, Mr Huntley, and that affects your statement to 10 the effect that Mr Parker had undertaken that the Union 11 would pay the $53,700. If you just accept from me that 12 having been through the annexures to your statement, up to 13 and inclusive of CH-11, there's neither a letter, nor 14 a minute, recording that offer or undertaking, if you just 15 accept that, and may I ask you to go to page 44 of the 16 annexures behind your statement and, in particular, 17 Annexure CH-12, at point 3: 18 19 BTGDA unanimously agreed at meeting on 20 20 December 2011 to make available $53,700 21 from term deposit on maturity to CIDAF 22 subject to favourable report from 23 Auditors ... 24 25 Do you see that? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. What is the source of that information? 29 A. In reference to the minute? 30 31 Q. Well, yes. 32 A. From Mr Papa. He would have been reporting to the 33 meeting. 34 35 Q. That was something you say Mr Papa reported to the 36 meeting? 37 A. That's my recollection, yes. 38 39 Q. The meeting that is referred to in the 40 paragraph I have read, "BTGDA unanimously agreed at meeting 41 on 20 December", should we read that as referring to 42 a meeting of the BTGDA? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. And "subject to a favourable report from Auditors", 46 there was an issue, wasn't there, as to whether or not the 47 CIDAF was going to receive a grant from NSW Health?

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1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. And that issue hadn't been resolved as at the end of 4 2011? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. If you go back to page 35, at paragraph 4, the minutes 8 indicate that the operating expenses had decreased by 9 $64,000-odd over the same period last year, but the two 10 reasons offered for the deficit was $100,000 in government 11 funding and $258,000 that had not been received; do you see 12 that? 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 15 Q. One of the things that the auditors were doing in 16 relation to CIDAF were confirming the accounts of the 17 Foundation and confirming why it was that the Foundation 18 was in deficit? 19 A. In part. 20 21 Q. Did you not always understand that the $53,700 was 22 contingent upon a report from the auditors being 23 favourable? 24 A. Certainly when it was mentioned in Mr Parker's letter. 25 26 Q. And, of course, that grant wouldn't be necessary if 27 the government, that is the New South Wales 28 Government - I will withdraw that and start again. That 29 payment wouldn't be necessary if the New South Wales 30 Government had come through with its support for the 31 Foundation; is that correct? 32 A. No. 33 34 Q. When you say "No", are you agreeing with me? 35 A. No. 36 37 Q. Well, if you received $100,000 from the New South 38 Wales Government, then that would more than cover the 39 deficit, would it not? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. Thank you. Perhaps one last question. That grant was 43 eventually made by the New South Wales Government, wasn't 44 it? 45 A. I don't recall. 46 47 Q. It may have occurred after your time?


1 A. Maybe. 2 3 MR AGIUS: Thank you. 4 5 THE COMMISSIONER: One thing I do not understand, Mr Agius 6 - obviously you and the witness are way ahead of me - but 7 if one is in deficit to the tune of $134,000, in part 8 because the government hasn't given one $100,000, when the 9 government does give one $100,000, isn't one still in 10 deficit to the tune of $34,000 as distinct from $134,000? 11 12 MR AGIUS: If that was the amount of the deficit, but the 13 $53,000 was what I understood to be in fact the deficit. 14 The $134,000 was a deficit in comparison with last year's 15 trading, but I understand - and I thought this was 16 reflected in the evidence - that $53,700 represented an 17 actual working deficit. We also understand that the grant 18 that was received from NSW Health was in the order of 19 $200,000. 20 21 THE COMMISSIONER: If it were $200,000, then obviously 22 your question and the answer is intelligible, but I thought 23 the $53,700 was not a deficit, it was just a sum of money 24 in a term deposit account. Yesterday it was said to be 25 rather unclear whether it was a lot of interest or whether 26 it was just an amount in the account, but $53,700 was not 27 a deficit. 28 29 MR AGIUS: I may be in error about that, Commissioner. 30 31 THE COMMISSIONER: It is just an asset. It is an 32 investment. 33 34 MR AGIUS: It was in an account of the BTGDA. However, the 35 point I was trying to make was that there was no need for 36 the payment of the $53,000 if the CIDAF moved out of 37 deficit. We expected that there would be some evidence 38 before the Commission at some time that in fact a grant of 39 $200,000 was received by the Foundation, and that that 40 cured its financial woes and that, therefore, there was no 41 need for any payment by the BTGDA. 42 43 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I understand now. Mr Condon? 44 45 MR CONDON: Thank you, Commissioner. 46 47


1 <EXAMINATION BY MR CONDON: 2 3 MR CONDON: Q. Mr Huntley, I act for Mr Ferguson. In 4 paragraph 4 of your statement, and by all means look to it 5 if you want to, you say very candidly that you have relied 6 on certain CIDAF COM meeting minutes and other documents to 7 refresh your memory, and you do not otherwise have a clear 8 and independent recollection of all of the events the 9 subject of the statement. Can I ask you this: to the 10 extent you don't have documents to assist your memory, 11 would you describe your recollection of the events of some 12 three or four or five years ago to be poor? 13 14 MR RICH: I object. It assumes that there is a common 15 answer to every event that my learned friend is referring 16 to and it doesn't really follow; that is, my friend has 17 referred to events of three or four years ago generally. 18 His recollection of some events may be better than others 19 is really the only point I am making, and I am not sure you 20 can answer that question. 21 22 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Condon, I think the question 23 may not be technically objectionable, but it might be 24 better if it was angled more on the specific factors, 25 events, circumstances. 26 27 MR CONDON: I will embark upon that course. 28 29 Q. You answered questions by my learned friend, 30 Ms McNaughton, concerning a discussion/discussions you had 31 with Mr Sharp. Do you recall those questions? 32 A. Which - what are you referring to? 33 34 Q. Do you recall being asked some questions a few hours 35 ago about some discussions you had with Mr Sharp? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. How many discussions did you have with Mr Sharp in 39 which he spoke about Mr Ferguson and Mr Ferguson imposing 40 pressure on CIDAF? 41 A. Just the one. 42 43 Q. Just one discussion? When did that discussion take 44 place, please? 45 A. I recall it would have been late 2011. 46 47 Q. Just so we're clear about this, do you have your

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1 statement in front of you, Mr Huntley? 2 A. I do. 3 4 Q. Just turn to paragraph 12. You will see there are 5 five subparagraphs lettered (a) through to (e), do you see 6 that? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. It was about those matters that Mr Sharp spoke to you; 10 is that right? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. You say there was one conversation and that took place 14 in late 2012; is that right? 15 A. Well, looking at my -- 16 17 Q. Late 2011, I apologise. 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. Yes? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Are you certain there was one conversation? 24 25 MR RICH: Commissioner, I believe my learned friend's 26 initial question related to Mr Ferguson. I think we are 27 now moving to the entirety of paragraph 12. I just want to 28 make sure the witness is clear, if there is a difference, 29 that it is put to the witness. 30 31 THE COMMISSIONER: Does your last question relate to the 32 one discussion with Mr Ferguson in late 2011 -- 33 34 MR CONDON: I apologise. Yes. 35 36 THE COMMISSIONER: -- in which Mr Sharp's focus was of 37 pressure being applied? 38 39 MR CONDON: I have confused you, Commissioner. I will 40 start again. 41 42 THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. 43 44 MR CONDON: Q. In paragraph 12 you refer to five matters 45 in subparagraphs (a) through to (e) and they were 46 discussions or the subject matter of discussion you had 47 with Mr Sharp; correct?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Do you say to the Commissioner that that discussion 4 took place in late 2011? 5 6 THE COMMISSIONER: Can I just interrupt? 7 8 THE WITNESS: No, I'll stand corrected on that. 9 10 THE COMMISSIONER: As I understand the evidence, it is 11 this: the witness says there was one discussion with 12 Mr Sharp in which Mr Sharp said that Mr Ferguson had put 13 Mr Sharp under intense pressure. The witness has also said 14 in paragraph 12 that on several occasions he had 15 discussions with Mr Sharp in which, apart from that matter 16 of Mr Ferguson's pressure, four other things were 17 discussed. 18 19 MR CONDON: Yes. 20 21 THE COMMISSIONER: I am treating the evidence as saying: 22 "I had several discussions with Mr Sharp, but in only one 23 of them did he mention Mr Ferguson putting pressure on". 24 Is that -- 25 26 MR CONDON: I think that may be the position. I will just 27 double-check. 28 29 THE WITNESS: Yes. 30 31 MR CONDON: Q. You heard what the Commissioner said. 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. Is the position there was but one conversation where 35 Mr Sharp referred to pressure coming from Mr Ferguson? 36 A. One conversation, yes. 37 38 Q. When did that take place? 39 A. In late '10, early '11. 40 41 Q. Do you recall when? 42 A. No. 43 44 Q. You mentioned, perhaps in answer to an imprecise 45 question, that there were discussions in late 2011. Was 46 that recollection incorrect? 47 A. What was the question again, I'm sorry?


1 2 Q. You had suggested earlier that there were some 3 discussions with Mr Sharp in late 2011, about one or more 4 of the matters set out in paragraph 12. Was that 5 incorrect? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Of course, there are no notes about these 9 conversations, are there? 10 A. No. 11 12 Q. Was it your practice to take diary notes or file notes 13 at the time of any conversations you thought might be 14 important? 15 A. No. 16 17 Q. But in all events, in relation to what appears in 18 paragraph 12, there are no diary notes or file notes, are 19 there? 20 A. No. 21 22 Q. Is it your evidence that your recollection about the 23 conversation with Mr Sharp about Mr Ferguson is poor; that 24 is, your recollection about this conversation is poor? 25 A. No. 26 27 Q. As you sit here now, of course, you are thinking back 28 to the events of some four, five years ago? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. And the only thing you can recall about that 32 conversation is what appears in paragraphs (d) and (e); is 33 that right? 34 A. No. 35 36 Q. Were you asked to put in direct speech the best of 37 your recollection of what was said on that occasion? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. And you weren't able to do that; is that right? 41 A. Well, this is my recollection, the best of my 42 recollection. 43 44 Q. How long did the conversation go for on this occasion? 45 A. An hour. 46 47 Q. An hour. Apart from the matters set out in (d) and


1 (e) concerning Mr Ferguson, what else do you tell the 2 Commission was said on that occasion? 3 A. Nothing. 4 5 Q. You have no other recollection of the hour-long 6 conversation apart from what appears in paragraphs (d) and 7 (e); is that right? 8 A. In relation to Mr Ferguson, there was nothing more 9 said. 10 11 Q. Leaving aside Mr Ferguson, do you have any 12 recollection of anything else discussed in that 13 conversation that lasted for about 60 minutes? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. What's your recollection? 17 A. Trevor's well-being. Trevor's return to full health. 18 Trevor's treatment. 19 20 Q. When Mr Sharp spoke of Mr Ferguson, did he do so in 21 fairly agitated terms? 22 A. Somewhat. 23 24 Q. Did you get the impression from the conversation that 25 Mr Sharp didn't like Mr Ferguson? 26 A. No. 27 28 Q. You say "agitated terms"; what did you mean by that? 29 A. Trevor was in an agitated state. He was agitated 30 about most things. 31 32 Q. What does "agitated" mean in this context? Was he 33 prone to exaggeration? 34 A. No, he was just short and sharp and -- 35 36 Q. Now -- 37 A. Edgy. 38 39 Q. Sorry, I apologise. 40 A. Edgy. 41 42 Q. Edgy. In paragraph 13, you refer to "a split in EBA 43 Contributions"; do you see those words? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Did you have an understanding in 2010 or 2011 of the 47 terms of the EBAs insofar as related to provision of funds


1 for drug and alcohol counselling? 2 A. In reference to the EBAs? 3 4 Q. Yes. Did you have an understanding of what the terms 5 of the EBA were in that context? 6 A. Generally, yes. 7 8 Q. Did you have an understanding that there was a $2 9 contribution? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. In fact, did you read the terms of the EBA? 13 14 MS McNAUGHTON: I object. There are various EBAs with 15 different companies. They have various start and ending 16 dates. To say "the EBA", in my respectful submission, is 17 not entirely clear. 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Condon, I think it might be 20 better if you picked out whichever EBA, or any more than 21 one of them. 22 23 MR CONDON: I am told there is an EBA in MFI-1, tab 7, 24 page 340. 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: Are you talking about the Chronological 27 Bundle? 28 29 MR CONDON: I am told it is in a separate bundle. 30 31 MS McNAUGHTON: Commissioner, there is an additional 32 bundle that I have not yet invited you to receive into 33 evidence called "CFMEU Enterprise Bargaining Agreements". 34 It might be convenient if that is received into evidence 35 now. 36 37 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. That will be Drug and Alcohol 38 Case Study MFI-6. It is a folder entitled "CFMEU 39 Enterprise Bargaining Agreements". 40 41 DRUG AND ALCOHOL CASE STUDY MFI-6 - FOLDER ENTITLED "CFMEU 42 ENTERPRISE BARGAINING AGREEMENTS" 43 44 MR CONDON: Q. If you go to page 340, please, in the 45 bottom right-hand corner. 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. You will see there there is a section headed 2 "Industry/Workers Welfare". Just read that to yourself, 3 please, and let the Commission know when you have done 4 that. 5 A. Yes, I have read that. 6 7 Q. Did you have an understanding, say, in about 2006 or 8 2007 that the terms of the EBAs included the sort of term 9 referred to you at page 340? 10 A. Generally, but not in any detail. 11 12 Q. You understood, nonetheless, from the terms of the EBA 13 that some money was to go to Drug and Alcohol and some was 14 to go to Safety programs; is that right? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Insofar as you have given evidence in your statement, 18 you have been concerned with money going towards the Drug 19 and Alcohol component of that term but, in addition, you 20 also understood there was a Safety component as well; is 21 that correct? Is that correct, Mr Huntley? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. And you understood, I take it, in about 2005 and 2006 25 that some of the money coming from the particular EBA 26 clause in front of you was to go to Safety programs 27 administered by the Union; is that right? 28 A. No. 29 30 Q. What do you think the Safety programs refer 31 to - sorry, I withdraw that, it is a bad question. You 32 will see that the document refers to a Safety Program? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. You understood that was distinct from the Drug and 36 Alcohol programs you were concerned about; correct? 37 A. No. 38 39 Q. Did you think that was just another word for "drug and 40 alcohol"; is that right? 41 A. I thought it was safety in reference to workplace 42 safety, to do with people using drugs and alcohol in the 43 workplace. 44 45 Q. If you close that document, I would be grateful. 46 Lastly, I can take you to paragraph 10 of your statement 47 where you talk about the CIDAF contributions to fund the


1 Drug and Alcohol Education Officer; do you see those words? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. You say in paragraph 11 that you cannot recall the 5 precise amount but you believe it was about one-half of 6 a salary of the Education Officer; do you see those words? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. Did you have, from time to time, occasion to look at 10 CIDAF's financial statements? 11 A. No. 12 13 Q. To your recollection, would the payments you have 14 referred to in paragraphs 10 and 11 be recorded in CIDAF's 15 financial statements? It would be an expense, wouldn't it? 16 17 MR RICH: I object. I think the evidence was he didn't 18 have occasion to look at them. 19 20 THE COMMISSIONER: I uphold that objection. 21 22 MR CONDON: I will put it another way. 23 24 Q. From time to time, of course, you went to meetings of 25 CIDAF, at which financial reports were tabled; is that 26 right? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. I take it before those meetings, or at those meetings, 30 you had occasion to look at the financial reports; correct? 31 A. Not in any detail. 32 33 Q. But, in all events, you looked at those reports from 34 time to time, did you not? 35 A. At the AGM. 36 37 Q. Is it your recollection those reports disclose, as 38 a particular line entry, the salary paid or the 39 contribution of one-half paid by CIDAF to the salary of the 40 Education Officer? 41 42 MS McNAUGHTON: Perhaps my friend can refine it to 43 a particular point of time? 44 45 MR CONDON: With respect, I am trying to get an answer 46 from the witness. His memory is understandably vague about 47 this issue; I am entitled to exhaust his memory.


1 2 THE COMMISSIONER: I have another problem. Do you have 3 a document presented to an Annual General Meeting of CIDAF 4 recording this 50 per cent? 5 6 MR CONDON: I don't have it, Commissioner. 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: I see. 9 10 MR CONDON: There is some doubt in my mind if payments 11 were made, and we can't find anything in the historical 12 court book which records these payments, hence, my question 13 of this witness. 14 15 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms McNaughton, is there any document? 16 17 MS McNAUGHTON: We don't have any such document. 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: I think I will allow the question. 20 21 MR CONDON: Q. Do you wish me to repeat the question, 22 Mr Huntley? 23 A. Yes, please. 24 25 Q. I was directing your attention to meetings of the AGM 26 of CIDAF which you attended, and I think you agreed with 27 the proposition that from time to time, either before those 28 meetings, or at those meetings, you had occasion to look at 29 the financial statements; correct? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. My question was simply this: in relation to those 33 financial reports prepared in relation to those AGMs, did 34 you have occasion to see any line entry disclosing CIDAF's 35 payments on account of a salary? 36 A. Can't recall. 37 38 Q. Was there any contract, or any form of documentation, 39 recording the terms upon which CIDAF would make those 40 payments? 41 A. Only as I've referred to previously where there was an 42 authority to be signed, whether that was a transfer 43 authority or whether it was a cheque that was signed for 44 those funds to be moved. 45 46 Q. Apart from that, you saw no contract regulating the 47 terms of the payment; correct?


1 A. Correct. 2 3 MR CONDON: That completes my questioning. Thank you, 4 Commissioner. 5 6 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Condon. Mr Cheshire? 7 8 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you, Commissioner. 9 10 11 <EXAMINATION BY MR CHESHIRE: 12 13 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Mr Huntley, you gave some evidence 14 about an undertaking for the $53,700 to be paid to the 15 Foundation, you recall that evidence? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. Do you recollect that as being an undertaking or 19 a promise? 20 21 MR RICH: I object. 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. What is the difference? 24 25 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Well, do you, Mr Huntley, draw any 26 distinction between an undertaking and a promise? 27 A. Yes, I do. 28 29 Q. Which do you recall this as being? 30 A. A promise. 31 32 Q. If that's correct, what do you see an undertaking as 33 being and a promise as being, what distinction do you draw? 34 A. Well, an undertaking is that you will have a look at 35 the detail and make some decisions about what detail you 36 might find there to help in your decision-making. 37 A promise is that you've already made up your mind and the 38 decision is, and you're going to do something. 39 40 Q. So you regard an undertaking as being a little less 41 binding, is that right, than a promise? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. In your evidence that you gave earlier to 45 Counsel Assisting, you referred to this in terms of an 46 undertaking that Mr Parker had given. Is that how you 47 recollect it?

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1 A. In the first instance, yes. 2 3 Q. Would it be fair to say that sitting here today, you 4 do not recall the terms in which this undertaking was 5 given; is that correct? 6 A. No. 7 8 Q. So you are saying that you disagree with the 9 proposition I put to you? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. You do remember, do you, the terms in which this 13 undertaking was given? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. What terms do you say the undertaking was given in? 17 A. The release of that $53,000-odd was subject to 18 a review, or an audit, about the solvency of the 19 organisation. 20 21 Q. So you recollect, do you, that there were conditions 22 attached to the undertaking? 23 A. Principally that one. 24 25 Q. And possibly others? 26 A. Possibly. 27 28 Q. I think I understand your evidence as being that the 29 undertaking to which you refer could have been given in 30 a meeting or in a letter; that's correct? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Your recollection is that the undertaking came from 34 Brian Parker; is that correct? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. There was a long pause before you gave that answer, 38 Mr Huntley. Does that suggest some uncertainty in your 39 mind? 40 41 MS McNAUGHTON: In my respectful submission, it wasn't 42 a long pause. It was a pause. 43 44 THE COMMISSIONER: I think the pause lasted four seconds. 45 46 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Mr Huntley, I will withdraw the word 47 "long". There was a pause before you gave your answer.


1 Would it be fair to say, sitting here today, you do not in 2 fact recall whether Mr Parker's name was attached to the 3 undertaking or not? 4 A. Mr Parker's name was attached to the undertaking. 5 6 Q. Right. It's possible, is it not, that this was 7 something that was being reported to you by somebody else; 8 correct? 9 A. Possible. 10 11 Q. Either as to the content of a meeting that that other 12 person had had with Mr Parker or as to a letter that 13 Mr Parker had sent to that person; correct? 14 A. Can I get that again? 15 16 Q. What I am suggesting to you: it is possible, isn't 17 it, that a third person, not you and not Mr Parker, was 18 reporting to you the contents of a meeting with Mr Parker? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. Rather than it being Mr Parker talking to you 22 directly; correct? 23 A. In the first instance, yes. 24 25 Q. Likewise, it could have been that third person 26 reporting on the contents of a letter; correct? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. It is possible, is it not, Mr Huntley, that in fact 30 the person that reported it to you as being "the Union" 31 have given an undertaking, and you understood from that 32 that it was Mr Parker but without the person actually 33 mentioning Mr Parker's name? 34 A. My recollection is that Mr Parker's name was 35 mentioned. 36 37 Q. Yes. What I am suggesting to you is that that may be 38 your recollection, but you would accept, would you not, 39 that your recollection in this regard may be in error? 40 A. No. 41 42 Q. You have a recollection, do you, now of Mr Parker's 43 name being mentioned? 44 A. Yes. A memory, yes. 45 46 Q. In what context do you say that this occurred? 47 A. At one of the COM meetings.


1 2 Q. At one of the meetings? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. So you now recollect, do you, that this was in 6 a meeting that it was mentioned; is that correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. See, earlier when I asked you about your evidence and 10 the evidence that you gave earlier, you could not recollect 11 whether it was in a meeting or in correspondence. I am 12 suggesting to you that sitting here now, you cannot 13 recollect whether it was in a meeting, do you accept that? 14 A. Or what was being reported at the meeting was in 15 reference to a letter that had been received. 16 17 Q. You said that you thought it was a Committee of 18 Management meeting; is that correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. Of which organisation? 22 A. The Foundation: CIDAF. 23 24 Q. Mr Parker was not a member of that Committee of 25 Management, was he? 26 A. No. 27 28 Q. He did not attend those meetings other than by 29 invitation on particular occasions; correct? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. So if that's right, this happened either at a meeting 33 that Mr Parker attended, and he said something to you 34 directly, or at a meeting that Mr Parker did not attend, 35 and somebody else reported a conversation or a letter - 36 communications with Mr Parker; correct? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. I want to take you to page 44 of your witness 40 statement which is the meeting that was held on 22 December 41 2011. 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. Do you accept that it is possible that this 45 conversation about the undertaking and Mr Parker occurred 46 at this meeting? 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. That was in the context, was it not, of it being 3 reported to this meeting that it was the Drug and Alcohol 4 Committee that had agreed to make the $53,700 available; 5 correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. You understood, did you not, that those moneys were in 9 a Drug and Alcohol Committee account; correct? 10 A. A BTG account, yes. 11 12 Q. Rather than a Union account; correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. And, therefore, you understood that the money in fact 16 was held by the BTG Drug and Alcohol Committee rather than 17 the Union; correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. So in terms of the decision to pay over the money, the 21 relevant decision was that from the BTG Drug and Alcohol 22 Committee; correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. Therefore, it is possible, is it not, that when you 26 refer to an undertaking or promise, what is relevant here 27 was the promise, or the undertaking, from the Drug and 28 Alcohol Committee; correct? 29 A. Correct, yes. 30 31 Q. Earlier, when you referred to an undertaking being 32 given, which your recollection was from Mr Parker, you 33 would accept that in fact your recollection may have been 34 that the undertaking was one that had been given by the BTG 35 Drug and Alcohol Committee rather than Mr Parker; correct? 36 A. There was a reference to Mr Parker. Whether he was on 37 the BTG Committee or not, I don't know. 38 39 Q. When you say "there was a reference to Mr Parker", 40 that could have been in the context of Mr Parker doesn't 41 oppose it; correct? 42 A. Could have been. 43 44 Q. Which you may have understood to be an undertaking 45 that Mr Parker had given; correct? 46 A. Correct. 47


1 Q. You will note that in those minutes, there is no 2 reference to Mr Parker having any involvement in respect of 3 the $53,700; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. If you go over to page 52, this is the Committee of 7 Management Meeting Minutes of 29 February 2012, do you 8 accept that it is possible that your understanding of the 9 undertaking that had been given came from what was said at 10 this meeting? 11 A. No. As well it was mentioned at this meeting, but it 12 was mentioned in previous meetings and dispatches. 13 14 Q. You would accept, would you not, that at this meeting 15 the reference to the $53,700 was made in the context of the 16 Union rather than Mr Parker; correct? 17 18 MR RICH: I object to that. I could be wrong, but I think 19 it says that $53,700 is still in the BTGDA Contingent 20 Account, "Foundation to ask BTGDA". I think my learned 21 friend put the union. I am confused. 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: I am on page 52, Minutes of Committee 24 of Management Meeting, held on 29 February 2012 -- 25 26 MR CHESHIRE: Commissioner, I am happy to withdraw the 27 question. There are two references and I will deal with 28 them separately. 29 30 MR RICH: I think that is the problem. 31 32 THE COMMISSIONER: I was with you. It does say "was 33 promised by CFMEU" which is -- 34 35 MR CHESHIRE: It does. I will come to that. I will deal 36 with both of the references. 37 38 Q. Mr Huntley, on page 52, do you see numbered point 3, 39 "Matters arising from previous Minutes", do you see that? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. And it says in the second dot point: 43 44 $53,700 still in BTGDA Contingent 45 Account - CIDAF to ask BTGDA to transfer 46 money into CIDAF account. 47


1 Do you see that? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. You understood the moneys were still being held in a 5 BTGDA account; correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 8 Q. Rather than a Union account; correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 11 Q. At the bottom of that page, under "Motion": 12 13 The CIDAF Committee of Management is 14 extremely disappointed that the $53,700 15 that was promised by CFMEU has not 16 materialised into CIDAF accounts. 17 18 Do you see that? 19 A. I do. 20 21 Q. It continues: 22 23 CIDAF respectfully requests that the money 24 promised by transferred ... 25 26 -- I presume it should be "be transferred" -- 27 28 ... into CIDAF accounts by Close of 29 Business 2/3/12. 30 31 Do you see that? 32 A. I do. 33 34 Q. You will note that there is a reference to the Union 35 in the context of $53,700; do you see that? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. But there is no reference to Mr Parker, do you see 39 that? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. What I am suggesting to you, and I think you may have 43 accepted this earlier, at this meeting, on 29 February, 44 there may well have been no reference to Mr Parker in the 45 context of the $53,700; do you accept that? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. And, indeed, when you prepared your statement, your 2 witness statement, you set out to the best of your 3 recollection the events as you recalled them; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. Perhaps if you are shown page 8, which is paragraph 38 7 onwards, and, in fact, if you go back a page to 8 paragraph 36, you will see that starts with the meeting on 9 22 December and I have asked you some questions about that. 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. It continues through to paragraph 43, through to the 13 period up until 2 March, including the meeting of 14 22 February 2012. You will note in there that there is no 15 reference to Mr Parker being involved in any undertaking; 16 correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. If in fact you had had at that time, at the time of 20 preparing this witness statement, a recollection of 21 a conversation in relation to Mr Parker being involved with 22 an undertaking, you would have put that in your witness 23 statement, wouldn't you? 24 A. Not necessarily. 25 26 Q. Look at paragraph 42. 27 A. Mmm. 28 29 Q. In the second line you record what is in the minutes 30 about the motion, expressing extreme disappointment that 31 "the moneys promised by the CFMEU NSW"; do you see that? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. If at that stage you had had a recollection that 35 Mr Parker had given some form of undertaking, you would 36 have included that there, wouldn't you? 37 A. Not necessarily. 38 39 Q. But it's likely that you would have done, isn't it? 40 A. Not necessarily. 41 42 Q. If you can then see page 54 of your statement, which 43 is the letter from Mr Parker of 2 March 2012, you refer to 44 this in paragraph 43 of your statement, and you recall the 45 date of the letter and the response. Did you see this 46 letter at or around the time that it was sent? 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. In the second paragraph, do you see that it says: 3 4 I am not aware that the CFMEU has made any 5 promise that the amount of $53,700 be 6 transferred to CIDAF. 7 8 Do you see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. If in fact it was your view at the time that Mr Parker 12 had given an undertaking, or even a promise, to pay the 13 moneys, or to cause the moneys to be paid, you would have 14 raised that in response to this letter, wouldn't you? 15 A. Well, I suppose by my actions I did. 16 17 Q. When you say by your actions, to what actions are you 18 referring? 19 A. I resigned. 20 21 Q. Do you say that resigning is because of Mr Parker 22 having given you an undertaking, and now saying that no 23 promise was made? 24 A. What's the question again, sorry? 25 26 Q. Well, you didn't resign because of Mr Parker's 27 actions, did you? 28 A. No. 29 30 Q. If in fact your recollection were correct that 31 Mr Parker had given some form of undertaking, when you saw 32 this letter on 2 March and, in particular, his statement, 33 "I am not aware that the Union has made any promise that 34 the amount of $53,700 be transferred", you would have said, 35 "That's not right"; you would have said that to yourself, 36 wouldn't you? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. And if you thought Mr Parker had said something that 40 wasn't right, you would have gone to him and said, "What 41 you say in this letter isn't right"? 42 A. Not necessarily. 43 44 Q. But if Mr Parker was saying something to you with 45 which you disagreed and which you thought was untrue, that, 46 then, if you weren't going to say anything, would have been 47 a reason for your resignation - one of the reasons;


1 correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. But it wasn't one of the reasons for the 5 resignation - for your resignation, was it? 6 7 MS McNAUGHTON: I object. The question he earlier put was 8 that it was "the reason". He is now putting "one of the 9 reasons". 10 11 MR CHESHIRE: That was deliberate. 12 13 Q. I will put it to you again, Mr Huntley. If in fact 14 Mr Parker had said something to you -- 15 16 MS McNAUGHTON: Well, I -- 17 18 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I know it is a sort of aggressive 19 leading question but I think it is permissible. Can we 20 perhaps disassociate it from the earlier question. That 21 perhaps is Counsel's point. 22 23 MR CHESHIRE: Q. If you ignore what I have asked you 24 before, Mr Huntley, this letter on page 54 -- 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. -- in the second paragraph says: 28 29 I am not aware the CFMEU has made any 30 promise that the amount of $53,700 be 31 transferred to CIDAF. 32 33 Correct? Do you see that? 34 A. I see that. 35 36 Q. You received this at or around the time that it was 37 sent; correct? 38 A. Yes. Yes. 39 40 Q. If your recollection were correct that Mr Parker had 41 said something to you, to give an undertaking that the 42 moneys would be transferred, when you read this letter, you 43 would have thought that Mr Parker was not being truthful in 44 that sentence; correct? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. And if that had been the case, I suggest to you that,


1 first of all, you would have raised it with him; do you 2 accept that? 3 A. No. 4 5 Q. And if you weren't going to raise it with him, he 6 would not have been very happy about that; correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 9 Q. That, therefore, would have been one of the reasons 10 for your resignation; correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. But the fact is, is it not, that things that were said 14 to you by Mr Parker about this matter were not one of the 15 reasons for your resignation; correct? 16 A. No. 17 18 Q. Look at paragraph 44 of your statement. Do you have 19 that? 20 A. I'm getting to it. Yes. 21 22 Q. Read paragraph 44 to yourself. 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. There's no reference there, is there, to Mr Parker not 26 honouring an undertaking that he'd given; correct? 27 A. Correct. 28 29 Q. That's because that wasn't one of the reasons why you 30 resigned; correct? 31 A. No. 32 33 Q. You say that that was one of the reasons, do you? 34 A. It was the transfer of the money. 35 36 Q. But what I am suggesting to you is - do you see that 37 that is the refusal to transfer the money by, if you read 38 the chapeau to (a) and (b) "As a result of CFMEU NSW's 39 refusal to transfer"; do you see that? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. There's nothing there about Mr Parker failing to 43 honour his undertaking, is there? 44 45 MR RICH: I object. 46 47 THE COMMISSIONER: I think I should uphold that objection.


1 I will not, if you do not mind, give a reason for that in 2 view of the presence of the witness in the room. I think 3 it is legitimate to ask now, if you like, for a statement 4 of what the reasons were. 5 6 MR CHESHIRE: I am content with that, Commissioner. 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want to ask what the reasons 9 were? 10 11 MR CHESHIRE: Sorry, I beg your pardon. Yes, please, 12 Commissioner. 13 14 THE COMMISSIONER: It is just that (b) may be gravid with 15 a proposition, but ask an open-ended question in the first 16 instance and see what happens. 17 18 MR CHESHIRE: Q. Mr Huntley, when I took you to the 19 letter of 2 March, I pointed out to you that Mr Parker had 20 said in that letter that he was not aware of any promise 21 about the moneys being transferred; correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 24 Q. And you accepted from me that that would be 25 inconsistent with Mr Parker having previously undertaken 26 for those moneys to be transferred; correct? 27 A. Correct. 28 29 Q. I suggested to you that that would have been a matter 30 that you would not have been very happy about; correct? 31 A. Correct. 32 33 Q. What I am suggesting to you is that from what is in 34 paragraph 44, the fact of Mr Parker having said initially 35 to you, "I give you an undertaking" - sorry, I'll withdraw 36 that. The fact of Mr Parker having given an undertaking 37 about the transfer of the moneys and then later saying that 38 he was not aware of any promise, that does not form one of 39 the reasons for your resignation, as set out in 40 paragraph 44 of your statement; do you accept that? 41 A. No. 42 43 Q. Where do you say that in paragraph 44 the fact that 44 Mr Parker gave an undertaking and then later said there was 45 no promise was a reason for your resignation? 46 A. Via the reference to the CFMEU. 47


1 Q. Yes. And where does it say about previously giving an 2 undertaking and then not following through with it? 3 A. Well, (b), "Refusal to transfer." 4 5 Q. But that was the refusal of the transfer rather than 6 giving inconsistent accounts about it, wasn't it? 7 A. Sorry, I don't follow you. 8 9 Q. Your complaint there is that the money wasn't being 10 transferred, that's it, isn't it, that was your complaint. 11 12 MR RICH: I object. 13 14 MR CHESHIRE: Q. It had nothing to do with Mr Parker 15 giving an undertaking and then the moneys not being 16 transferred? 17 18 MR RICH: I object. 19 20 THE WITNESS: It's one and the same. 21 22 THE COMMISSIONER: This process of testing that 23 Mr Cheshire is undertaking is a legitimate one, I think. 24 He has given a particular answer. Mr Cheshire is entitled 25 to test it, at least for a while. 26 27 MR RICH: If the Commission pleases. 28 29 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you, Commissioner. 30 31 Q. Your last response was, "They are one and the same"; 32 is that correct? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. I want to suggest to you if that were correct, you 36 would have written that in paragraph 44 of your statement; 37 do you accept that? 38 39 THE COMMISSIONER: See, this is the trouble. Let me be 40 blunt about it: on one view he has. Let me try it this 41 way. 42 43 Q. Perhaps let me put this: you resigned because you 44 thought your position on the COM had become untenable; 45 right? Correct? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. What were the reasons why you thought your position 2 was untenable? If you can just state them as best you can 3 now. 4 A. To do with the lack of probity and clarity with the 5 BTG accounts and whether contributions had been disbursed, 6 and this money that was in a term deposit that was 7 maturing, that the BTG were holding, not being released, 8 transferred, or approved to move to the Foundation - to 9 CIDAF. 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Cheshire. 12 13 MR CHESHIRE: Thank you, Mr Commissioner. I am content 14 with that, and thank you, Mr Huntley. 15 16 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Cheshire. Mr Borgeest? 17 18 MR BORGEEST: Thank you. 19 20 <EXAMINATION BY MR BORGEEST: 21 22 MR BORGEEST: Q. Mr Huntley, I am representing 23 Mr Tony Papa today. I just want to ask you some questions 24 about the chronology of who occupied the Executive Officer 25 position at the Foundation from time to time and how that 26 changed. By about the end of late 2010, you had been 27 a member of the Committee for more than 15 years and up 28 until that time, and for many years, Mr Sharp was the 29 Executive Officer at the Foundation? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. He commenced a period of leave in early September of 33 2010; you remember that? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. The circumstances of his leave were the subject of 37 discussion at a special meeting of the Committee in 38 November of 2010; do you remember that? This was the first 39 meeting after the reasons associated with Mr Sharp's 40 absence were discussed by the Committee. 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. Can you just go to, please, page 160 of the 44 Chronological Bundle, if you have that in front of you. Do 45 you have that document in front of you, Mr Huntley? 46 A. Yes. 47

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1 Q. The meeting discussed some of the complicated issues 2 facing the Committee associated with Mr Sharp's absence; 3 you agree with that? And issues to do with support that 4 the Committee could give to Mr Sharp? 5 A. Well, I'm just reading it. 6 7 Q. Excuse me. 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. Can I direct your attention to the two paragraphs 11 together near the middle of that page, the 12 paragraph commencing, "The management committee resolved"? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. You see there that what happened in light of 16 Mr Sharp's absence, and the uncertain nature at that time 17 of its duration, that the executive function that Mr Sharp 18 had been performing was vested in yourself, together with 19 two other members of the Committee? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. You can close that volume now, Mr Huntley. Over the 23 following months there was some communication between the 24 Foundation and Mr Sharp concerning Mr Sharp's position, and 25 you have said in your statement that you participated in 26 those communications and discussions, and that took up 27 a fair bit of your time? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. You, together with the two other members of the 31 Committee, continued to, together, execute the Executive 32 Officer functions until it was clear that Mr Sharp was not 33 returning? 34 A. I believe so. 35 36 Q. The position is that Mr Sharp ceased to be an employee 37 of the Foundation in about early June the following year, 38 early June 2011; is that right? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. After that happened, you had a conversation with 42 Mr Knott, who was one of the other people on the 43 sub-committee of three, about an arrangement where Mr Papa 44 could be seconded to the Foundation to take over the 45 Executive Officer functions for a period of time; do you 46 recall that? 47 A. I think it was earlier than that.


1 2 Q. The conversation with Mr Knott was earlier than that, 3 is that what you say? 4 A. Or the suggestion of Mr Papa taking on some duties. 5 6 Q. I see. So when, to your recollection, did Mr Papa 7 commence to take on those duties? Can I suggest to you it 8 was at about the time when Mr Sharp's employment ended? 9 A. No, it was prior to that. 10 11 Q. I see. Approximately how much prior to that, do you 12 know? 13 A. Oh, months. 14 15 Q. Months. During that time the arrangement that you had 16 reached with Mr Knott was that the CFMEU would continue to 17 employ Mr Papa and pay his wages during the period of 18 secondment; is that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. And then in November of 2011, Mr Papa accepted an 22 offer of employment on a permanent full-time basis with the 23 Foundation, and you understand that he left his employment 24 with the Union at that time? 25 A. I don't know whether he left his employment with the 26 Union or not. 27 28 Q. To your knowledge he accepted an offer of full-time 29 employment with the Foundation in November of 2011? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 MR BORGEEST: Thank you. No further questions. 33 34 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr McNally? 35 36 MR McNALLY: No questions, thank you, sir. 37 38 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Rich? 39 40 MR RICH: No, thank you, Commissioner. 41 42 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms McNaughton? 43 44 MS McNAUGHTON: I would just like to put something on the 45 record which may affect, perhaps, whether or not anyone 46 wants to ask further questions. 47


1 The Commission does not have available to it full 2 records or complete records from CIDAF and, in particular, 3 perhaps in relation to what Mr Condon was asking, we do not 4 have general ledgers of CIDAF prior to 2005. 5 6 Other than that, I have no further questions. 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: In the light of that, does anyone want 9 to ask any questions? Does anyone oppose the granting to 10 Mr Huntley of leave to depart? 11 12 MS McNAUGHTON: No. 13 14 THE COMMISSIONER: You are excused from further attendance 15 on your summons that brought you here. Thank you very much 16 for attending this morning and giving evidence. 17 18 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 19 20 THE COMMISSIONER: You may leave the witness box. 21 22 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 23 24 THE COMMISSIONER: The hearing will resume at 2pm. 25 26 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT 27 28 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton? 29 30 MS McNAUGHTON: I call Trevor Sharp. 31 32 <TREVOR JAMES SHARP, sworn: [2.03pm] 33 34 <EXAMINATION BY MS MCNAUGHTON: 35 36 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Sir, could you please tell the 37 Commission your full name? 38 A. Trevor James Sharp. 39 40 Q. And you're retired? 41 A. I am. 42 43 Q. Have you prepared a witness statement in relation to 44 the matters before the Commission? 45 A. Yes, I have. 46 47 Q. Can I show you this document, please. Is that a copy

.11/08/2015 BTG D&A 215 T J SHARP (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI

1 of your statement that you prepared and signed on 10 August 2 2015? 3 A. Yes, it is. 4 5 Q. Is that true and correct? 6 A. It is. 7 8 MS McNAUGHTON: If that could be received into evidence, 9 please? 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Sharp's statement is received 12 into evidence. 13 14 STATEMENT OF TREVOR JAMES SHARP DATED 10/8/2015 15 16 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Could we go through your statement in 17 some detail. You start off by saying after you retired, 18 that you were a recovering alcoholic and drug addict? 19 A. Correct. 20 21 Q. Under the heading "Background", you give the 22 beginnings of your career, do you? From 1986 to 1988, you 23 were employed in South Australia as an organiser for the 24 BWIU? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. Then in 1989, you came into New South Wales and 28 commenced work as a bricklayer? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. You were elected on the project at Wollstonecraft as 32 the safety representative for the bricklayers? 33 A. Yes, I was. 34 35 Q. You went and attended training conducted by the BWIU 36 as you were required to do? 37 A. Yes, in Kent Street, Sydney. 38 39 Q. Kent Street, Sydney? 40 A. Kent Street, Sydney, the BWIU office. 41 42 Q. Could you talk as loudly as you can so it can be 43 picked up. 44 A. I'm sorry. Yes. 45 46 Q. Thank you very much. 47 A. Okay.


1 2 Q. You say in the course of the training you were 3 introduced to Pat Carr? 4 A. Yes, I was. 5 6 Q. She was the BWIU's workers' compensation officer? 7 A. She was. 8 9 Q. You say that you've made observations about who she 10 met and what she felt strongly about? 11 A. She discussed that with me, yes, that was true. 12 13 Q. What did she discuss with you, can you say in your own 14 words now? 15 A. She discussed with me the number of workers that were 16 on workers' comp and had been involved in accidents that 17 were caused by drugs and alcohol. She was very passionate 18 about this. 19 20 Q. She said, according to you, or she felt very strongly 21 that the Union should do something to support those people? 22 A. That's right. It was her belief that if the Union 23 didn't take a stand on drugs and alcohol in the workplace, 24 the employers wouldn't be anywhere near as worker-friendly 25 as a Union program. 26 27 Q. And she said the Union had recently established a 28 Building Trades Group Drug and Alcohol Committee, did she? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. That was to attempt to address the issue of drug and 32 alcohol safety in the workplace? 33 A. That's right, its original principal concern was drug 34 and alcohol safety in the workplace - safety. 35 36 Q. Did you get invited to join that Committee? 37 A. Yes, she did. She invited me, yes. 38 39 Q. You say that she convened that in the BWIU office? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. Is that Kent Street in Sydney? 43 A. That was 361 Kent Street in those days, yes. 44 45 Q. You did join the Committee, and you make some comments 46 about its nature. You say that it was primarily a BWIU 47 initiative?


1 A. Yes. It was Pat's initiative - Pat Carr's initiative 2 but to be formally - to be accepted by everyone on 3 construction work sites, it had to cover all trades, so it 4 had to be a building trades group of unions initiative, not 5 just one union. 6 7 Q. You said "cover all trades". You mean cover all 8 building trades, do you? 9 A. Yes. All construction industry trades, yes. 10 11 Q. You say it was formally a subcommittee of the 12 Buildings Trade Group of Unions, is that when it was first 13 set up? 14 A. Back in those days it was, yes. 15 16 Q. You say it was officially known as the Building Trades 17 Group (Drug and Alcohol) Committee? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. You go on to explain what you've just told the 21 Commission. You say it initially consisted of six to eight 22 people; you set out some of those people in the paragraph 23 on page 2? 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. You say it met, you thought, once a fortnight; then 27 later monthly. When is this? This is back in the late 28 '80s, is it? 29 A. I commenced working October 1989. By the time I got 30 elected to the Safety Committee and did that training, it 31 would have been very early 1990, and it went from then 32 until we got the initial grant in 1992. 33 34 Q. You say in late 1991, in paragraph 6, the Committee 35 secured a grant from the National Campaign Against Drug 36 Abuse? 37 A. That's correct, yes. 38 39 Q. That was a Federal Government initiative, and you say 40 it enabled the Committee to employ a person to become its 41 Education Officer, and you got that role? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. You started there in January 1992? 45 A. Yes, I did. 46 47 Q. You say that was the official commencement of the


1 Building Trades Group Drug and Alcohol Program? 2 A. It was the official commencement of the roll-out of 3 that program across sites in New South Wales. 4 5 Q. By this time, the CFMEU was in existence; is that 6 right? 7 A. Yes, that's correct, yes. 8 9 Q. And Dennis Mathews was the Secretary at that time, you 10 say? 11 A. At that time, when I first started, he was, yes. 12 13 Q. In the next couple of years you say Mr Ferguson became 14 the Secretary? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. At paragraph 8, you say you'd report to Mrs Carr on a 18 day-to-day basis and to the Committee at its monthly 19 meetings? 20 A. Yes, that's right. 21 22 Q. You say that you got further funding to present Drug 23 and Alcohol Safety in the Workplace Training to apprentices 24 in TAFE colleges? 25 A. Yes, that's right. Yes, we did. 26 27 Q. And your position gradually transitioned to the 28 Project Coordinator's role and you were able to recruit 29 another employee to fill the newly created position of 30 Apprentices Education Officer? 31 A. That's right, yes. 32 33 Q. What years are we talking now? 34 A. Around about 1994, the initial NCADA grant went for 35 two years and I don't think we employed the Education 36 Officer until that grant had run out. 37 38 Q. You just said "NCADA". That's short for National 39 Campaign Against Drug Abuse; is that right? 40 A. That's correct, yes. 41 42 Q. You say various people performed the role, including 43 Gavin Dimery and Shane Barrett? 44 A. Yes, there were a couple more as well. I can't 45 remember the chronological order. 46 47 Q. Right. But you mention the names Nick Fodor,


1 Brian Boyley and Tom Simpson. 2 A. Yes, I did. Gavin Dimery and Shane Barrett, I can 3 tell you, certainly worked as Apprentice Education Officers 4 and Nick Fodor, Brian Boyley and Tom Simpson, they worked 5 as Drug and Alcohol Education Officers which filled the 6 role I vacated, and that position was funded by the 7 New South Wales Health Department, and I believe still is. 8 9 Q. At paragraph 9 you go on to discuss the Construction 10 Industry Drug and Alcohol Foundation, CIDAF? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. More commonly known as the Foundation? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. What, if any, relationship did it have to be BTG Drug 17 and Alcohol Committee? 18 A. The relation it had to the Drug and Alcohol Committee, 19 they were two separate organisations. The Drug and Alcohol 20 Committee's principal objective was drug and alcohol safety 21 in the workplace. It was an education program. The 22 Foundation was set up to provide drug and alcohol treatment 23 and support services to people with problems. 24 25 Q. You said that was two separate organisations, but 26 you've included it in your statement. Does that indicate 27 that it is somehow related in some way? 28 A. They're related in the fact that they both provide 29 drug and alcohol services to the construction industry, but 30 the two different organisations are run by two different 31 Boards, two different Board structures, and they have 32 different objectives in the way that they offer their 33 services and the services that they offer. 34 35 Q. You say it was set up because you'd received feedback 36 from employers that they were not comfortable donating 37 directly to the Union movement, but they were willing to 38 support an organisation where they had representation on 39 the Board and could determine how their money was spent? 40 A. That's absolutely correct, yes. 41 42 Q. Now, Pat Carr, is she still around or is she -- 43 A. No, she's passed away. 44 45 Q. When did that occur? When did she die? 46 A. Between 2007, 2008, 2009, I think. I'm sorry, I can't 47 remember the exact date.


1 2 Q. Still in relation to the Foundation, in terms of its 3 constitution of the Board, you say that the Foundation's 4 Board was configured to include four representatives from 5 employers or employer organisations, four representatives 6 from the building unions and rank and file workers, and one 7 person from the drug and alcohol medical/legal or other 8 fields? 9 A. That's true. That's correct, yes. 10 11 Q. Did you have an involvement in the Foundation from 12 1994 or at a later time? 13 A. I had an involvement in it prior to 1994. It was my 14 idea to form it. I was never a Board member. It was 15 inappropriate for me to be a Board member, but I was always 16 an adviser and a member of the Foundation. 17 18 Q. The membership of the Foundation, how was that 19 represented? 20 A. The membership of the Foundation, when somebody filled 21 out a Membership Form for the Foundation, they joined under 22 one of three categories. They joined under - one category 23 was Trade Union or Employee Representative; the second 24 category was Employers or Employer Representatives, the 25 Master Builders Association, or Chamber, or whatever; and 26 there was another category called the Drug and Alcohol 27 Medical/Legal or Other Fields. 28 29 Q. What did membership of the Foundation mean, 30 practically speaking? 31 A. Practically speaking, anyone from either of those 32 three categories could join the Foundation. That would 33 comprise an organisation of a large amount of members. 34 That organisation and those members in their own categories 35 would then elect members to represent their categories on 36 the Committee of Management. So, what I'm saying is the 37 Union officials and the rank and file workers would not 38 vote for what employers would become Committee of 39 Management representatives, and the employers wouldn't vote 40 for the Union guys. 41 42 Q. How did these elections occur? Were they sent out by 43 post? 44 A. Nominations were called for at the - orally, at the 45 Annual General Meeting. 46 47 Q. How did people become aware of the Annual General


1 Meeting? Was that a letter? 2 A. Yes. Yes. People were invited to it, yes. 3 4 Q. If you joined as a Foundation member in any one of the 5 three categories, you were at least posted a notice of the 6 AGM. Anything else that you received? 7 A. You received an invitation to every meeting that took 8 place. 9 10 Q. Of the Committee of Management? 11 A. No, of the Foundation itself. 12 13 Q. How often did that meet? 14 A. Those meetings occurred once every three months, 15 according to the rules, and should it have been necessary 16 to - because of special business to convene meetings in 17 between those quarterly meetings, that took place when 18 necessary, but at a minimum four times a year, according to 19 the rules. 20 21 Q. That was the Foundation at large that met four times a 22 year? 23 A. That's the Foundation at large and each time it met, 24 there was a Committee of Management meeting that took place 25 after it and, after a while, somebody moved that the 26 Committee of Management meetings would take place within 27 the general meeting, and there were times that a Committee 28 of Management meeting needed to meet in between the general 29 meetings and they were just Committee of Management only 30 meetings. 31 32 Q. Are you able to say, or did it vary too much, what the 33 general numbers of the Foundation at large were? 34 A. For a greater percentage of time, it would have been 35 not very much more than the actual Committee of Management, 36 nine people. I'd say on an average between 10, 12, 14 37 people on an average over the years. When it first - the 38 very first meeting, a lot of people came to it. There was 39 a lot of interest. 40 41 Q. You then go on to say that in 1996, you attended an 42 International Labour Organisation Safety Conference in 43 Spain and that you visited Canada on the same trip, and you 44 investigated a drug and alcohol rehabilitation facility 45 that you'd learnt was one by the union movement in 46 Vancouver. 47 A. That's correct. It's called the Construction Industry


1 Rehab Plan. 2 3 Q. You indicate there how it raised funds by charging a 4 levy of two cents per hour per worker, or 80 cents per week 5 per worker on employers through industrial agreements, and 6 you came back to Australia with that idea. Is that 7 correct? 8 A. I did, yes. 9 10 Q. You spoke to Mr Ferguson? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. He was, at that time, Secretary of the CFMEU 14 Construction and General Division NSW Branch? 15 A. He was. 16 17 Q. And you discussed ways that that could be applied to 18 enterprise bargaining agreements in New South Wales? 19 A. Yes, we did. 20 21 Q. You then go on to say: 22 23 Some time soon after the CFMEU asked 24 employers to pay a once off fee of $250 to 25 the BTG Drug & Alcohol Program to 26 financially support its activities. 27 28 You say you believed it became a standard clause, going 29 over the next page, for a period of maybe the next 30 12 months. 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Can I ask you - sorry, what did you say? 34 A. I was going to say that's a recollection. I couldn't 35 actually swear that to be the case, but to the best of my 36 recollection that's true. 37 38 Q. Could I have, please, the witness shown the EBA 39 Bargaining Agreement folder. Could you please turn to 40 page 165. It is the bottom right-hand corner. Just while 41 you get used to the format of this folder, do you see 42 there's various tabs in the folder? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Page 165 is page 30 of a document that starts at the 46 beginning of that tab. Do you see that? 47 A. Which tab are you talking about? The green one?


1 2 Q. It's green in mine. Yes. 3 A. That's correct, yes. Page 165, yes. Yes. 4 5 Q. Can we just see the first page before we go to the 6 actual clause is an Industrial Relations Commission 7 document and it is a Certification of Agreement. The last 8 line above the stamp, the last sentence, says: 9 10 This agreement shall come into force on and 11 from 30 March 1998 and shall remain in 12 force 30 September 1999. 13 14 A. Yes. That's in front of me, yes. 15 16 Q. Then if we can go over to the next page, you can see 17 what appears to be the first page of an EBA, would you 18 agree? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. With a particular company there that's set out? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. And then if we go over to page 30 of that document, or 25 page 165 of the bundle, can you see there under 4, 26 "Implementation", subparagraphs (d) and (e)? 27 A. 165. "Implementation". Paragraph what? 28 29 Q. Do you see 4(d) -- 30 A. Yes, yes, yes. 31 32 Q. -- and 4(e)? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. 4(d) says: 36 37 Upon signatory of this Agreement pay a 38 service fee of $250.00 to the BTG Drug and 39 Alcohol Committee for presentation of the 40 training course referred to in point 41 4(c) ... 42 43 Which is just above? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. 47 ... and for the provision of assessment and


1 referral/counselling services, if 2 necessary, for employees needing to 3 undertake treatment as a result of Drug and 4 Alcohol problems. 5 6 A. Yes, that's correct, that's the clause. 7 8 Q. And then (e): 9 10 As a demonstration of employee commitment 11 to this programme, it is hereby agreed by 12 the parties to this agreement that 40 cents 13 per week from [1 October 1997] and $1.00 14 per week from [1 March 1998], of the 15 redundancy contribution for each employee 16 as specified in this agreement, will be 17 reallocated by ACIRT/AAS to the 18 Construction Industry Drug & Alcohol 19 Foundation. This will apply to all 20 employees of the company (except 21 apprentices and trainees). 22 23 Does that accord with your recollection of an early version 24 of the clause? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 MR McNALLY: You should first ask him has he ever seen an 28 earlier version before. 29 30 MS McNAUGHTON: I beg your pardon, sir? 31 32 MR McNALLY: Has he ever seen a version before today. 33 34 THE WITNESS: I have seen it before. It's long time since 35 I have seen it, yes, but it does reflect, though, what the 36 agreement said at that time. It is a wonderful clause, 37 clause (e), but it didn't work at all. We couldn't get the 38 money. It couldn't come back out of the members' accounts. 39 40 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Have you seen clauses before in EBAs? 41 A. Yes, I have. 42 43 Q. When I ask you whether or not this accords with your 44 recollection of an early clause, that's a meaningful 45 question to you. Is this the first that you can recall of 46 the clause that you've referred to in your statement? 47 A. This is the very first clause that was put into any


1 EBAs because the $250 was the very first clause. It does 2 appear now that it included the 40 cents and then $1 a 3 week, but I definitely remember the $250 clause, yes. 4 5 Q. Thank you. You say in your statement, if we can go 6 back to it, at the top of page 4, you say that after the 7 completion of what you thought was approximately a 12-month 8 period, you convinced Mr Ferguson to replace this clause 9 with a clause that saw employers adding $1 per week per 10 employee to their weekly redundancy contributions via the 11 Construction Employees Redundancy Trust or CERT? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. You say: 15 16 At some time perhaps in approximately 1995 17 or 1996 CERT became the Australian 18 Construction Industry Redundancy Trust [or] 19 (ACIRT). 20 21 To the best of your recollection, you say: 22 23 ... the CFMEU continued to insert the $1 24 per week per employee clause onto its EBAs. 25 26 A. That's correct, yes. 27 28 Q. Can I just, first of all, take you to a further EBA 29 behind the next tab. Do you see at page 166 that there is 30 a certification of an agreement and the dates in this 31 document say that it shall come into force from 16 June 32 1998. 33 A. Yes, I do. 34 35 Q. 36 ... and shall remain in force until 37 31 October 1999. 38 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. The next page is an enterprise agreement of a 42 particular company. Do you see that? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Do you see over at page 183, clauses again at (d) and 46 (e)? Do you see that it is in similar, though slightly 47 different terms, to the one we saw earlier?


1 A. Yes. Yes, very similar. 2 3 Q. We've got the $250 still? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. But in paragraph (e), it's 50 cents per week and the 7 terms are different. At page 183 the clause says: 8 9 As part of the employee and company 10 commitment to the Construction Industry 11 Drug and Alcohol Foundation, if an employee 12 elects to contribute an amount of $0.50 per 13 week to the Construction Industry Drug and 14 Alcohol Foundation then the company will 15 contribute a further $0.50 per week to the 16 Foundation ... 17 18 Then it says: 19 20 ... these funds will be complementary and 21 additional to the redundancy contributions 22 as shown in Appendix A. This total amount 23 of $1.00 is to be made available to the 24 Drug and Alcohol Foundation. 25 26 A. That's correct, yes. 27 28 Q. Have you seen a clause of that nature before? 29 A. Yes, I have. 30 31 Q. Was that developed after that clause that we saw 32 earlier? 33 A. Yes, that would have been a flow-on from the first 34 clause, yes. It would have been seen as an improvement to 35 the first clause. 36 37 Q. You go on in your statement, if I could take you back 38 to that, page 4, the paragraph in your statement starting: 39 40 While this scheme should have been a 41 successful fundraiser for the BTG Drug & 42 Alcohol Program, it was failing due to many 43 employers failing to correctly fill out 44 their remittance forms and instead of their 45 $1 per week going to the Program, it was 46 going directly into the employees' ACIRT 47 account.


1 2 I think you indicated earlier, in your evidence today, it 3 proved impossible under the rules ACIRT to extract the 4 money once it had been received into the members' account. 5 Do you recall that? 6 A. I do, yes. 7 8 Q. So sometime later, perhaps in or around 1998, the 9 CFMEU amended the clause in EBAs to have their $1 per week 10 for the program collected by an independent administrator. 11 A. Yes, that's correct. 12 13 Q. You say: 14 15 The administrator referred to in these 16 clauses was Steve Parker, through his 17 company Laytins Mayfair. 18 19 And he was also the administrator of ACIRT. You say: 20 21 He would mail out to employers a donation 22 advice slip, which informed employers the 23 amount of, and how to pay, their 24 contributions. In return for this, he 25 received a commission of 10% on all 26 successful collections plus agreed costs, 27 such as postage etc. 28 29 A. Yes, all of that's true. 30 31 Q. Can I show you a clause at page 340. Do you see 32 there, at the bottom of the page, a clause saying: 33 34 The Company will contribute $1.00 per week 35 per Employee to an administrator nominated 36 by the Building Trades Group (BTG) of 37 Unions Drug & Alcohol/Safety Program, to 38 assist with the provision of drug & alcohol 39 rehabilitation & treatment services/safety 40 programs for the building industry. 41 42 A. Yes, that's correct. In that where it refers to 43 "rehabilitation & treatment/safety programs for the 44 building industry", the intention of the Drug and Alcohol 45 Program and their view on safety was safety in regard to 46 drug and alcohol problems in the workplace, not the general 47 safety of unsafe scaffolds, asbestos removal, that kind of


1 stuff. It was just the problems involved, safety problems 2 involved with drug and alcohol use in the workplace. 3 4 Q. Could I also take you back to page 285 in another 5 agreement. Do you see there, about halfway down the page, 6 what would appear to be another form of the clause: 7 8 For New South Wales Employees only: Of the 9 $61.00 redundancy provision, $60.00 will be 10 paid into ACIRT and $1.00 per week per 11 Employee will be paid by the Company to an 12 administrator nominated by the Building 13 Trades Group (BTG) of Unions Drug & 14 Alcohol/Safety Program, to assist with the 15 provision of drug and alcohol 16 rehabilitation and treatment 17 services/safety programs for the building 18 and construction industry. 19 20 A. Yes, I see that, and I see the reason for it is 21 because it is a Bovis Lend Lease agreement, a national 22 company. 23 24 Q. Just in terms of the dates of that one, can we see 25 back at page 269, that that's between 25 August 2003 and 26 31 October 2005. 27 A. That's correct, yes. 28 29 Q. And the one that I showed you at page 340 -- 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. -- if one looks at page 314, do you see that that 33 relates to an agreement between 11 February 2004 and 34 31 October 2005? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. You've seen clauses of that nature before? 38 A. I have, yes. 39 40 Q. What was your understanding, as a result of that 41 clause, that the funds were to be used for? 42 A. The funds were to be used for the provision of drug 43 and alcohol services to the building and construction 44 industry, whether that be the Safety Program or the 45 Rehabilitation Program, and I believe at that time, was it 46 1995/2004, I believe at that time they would have all been 47 going across to the Construction Industry Drug and Alcohol


1 Foundation because Foundation House had opened in 2000, and 2 all of the EBA money after that, after 2000, was supporting 3 the running and maintenance of Foundation House. 4 5 Q. You mentioned Laytins Mayfair. Do you understand that 6 company to be the administrator referred to in the clauses 7 we've just seen? 8 A. Yes, when referred to, that's correct, yes. 9 10 Q. Do you have a clear understanding, without looking at 11 documentation, as to precisely how Laytins Mayfair was 12 collecting the money, or do you need to see documentation? 13 A. I wouldn't need to see documentation. I believe that 14 Laytins Mayfair sent out a reconciliation slip. 15 16 Q. To whom? To the employees? 17 A. No, the employer. There probably would have been a 18 box in that for the employer to write the number of 19 employees he had, times $1 per week equals at the bottom 20 whatever the amount was, and I'm unsure whether that cheque 21 was made out to Laytins Mayfair or whether that cheque was 22 made out to the Building Trades Group Drug and Alcohol 23 Program and, at the end of the month, Laytins Mayfair 24 transmitted all of that - all of those funds to the Drug 25 and Alcohol Program. 26 27 Q. Could the witness please be provided with a Bank 28 Accounts folder which is MFI-3, volume 1, please. Could 29 you please turn to the green tab, it should be in your 30 folder, which starts at page 339, but I am going to ask you 31 to go to page 346. 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. Do you see there some cheques, they're very small, or 35 facsimiles of cheques? 36 A. I can see them. 37 38 Q. "Pay BTG Drug and Alcohol Safety Program", and they're 39 all made out in that fashion. These ones in particular, 40 for example, are dated in 2010. 41 A. Yes. The bottom one is made out to "BTG Drug & 42 Alcohol Foundation", and that's just employers' mistakes in 43 recognising different organisations, but, in essence, 44 they're all going to the same cause. 45 46 Q. Yes. Does that assist you, one way or the other, as 47 to your understanding of how Laytins Mayfair was collecting


1 the money? 2 A. Yes, it does. I also think - I recall that some of 3 the funds were transmitted through electronic transfers. 4 5 Q. Where do you understand the money was transmitted to? 6 A. Straight into the Building Trades Group account. 7 8 Q. By that do you mean the Building Trades Group account, 9 per se, or do you mean something more precise? 10 A. No, I apologise for that. The Building Trades Group 11 Drug and Alcohol Program. The organisation that I ran was 12 a subcommittee of the Building Trades Group, but that's all 13 we ever had to do with them. I never had anything to do 14 with the running or the accounts of the Building Trades 15 Group of Unions as such. 16 17 Q. The Building Trades Group Drug and Alcohol Program 18 account, that's the account you mentioned? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. Can I ask you, please, to go to page 1 of the document 22 you've got, that's the Bank Accounts Volume 1 of 2 or 23 MFI-3. 24 A. The green tab? 25 26 Q. This time right at the front of the volume, behind the 27 red tab, page 1. 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. Do you see there under the letterhead "The Building 31 Trades Group of Unions Drug and Alcohol Committee", there's 32 a letter? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. With your signature block on a signature. Is that 36 your signature? 37 A. That is my signature, yes. 38 39 Q. Have you seen that before, that document? 40 A. Well, I've signed it so I saw it before. I can't 41 recall it at the moment, but, yes, it was just a document 42 to open a new account, yes. 43 44 Q. You're asking the bank there to set up an account in 45 the name "Building Trades Group of Unions Drug and 46 Alcohol/Safety Program", is that the position? 47 A. That's correct, yes.


1 2 Q. Would you go over the page. 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. That's 15 December 2002, just for completeness. Over 6 the page there's a bank form, it would appear, at the top 7 right-hand corner, 16 December 2002. Do you see that? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. An account identification number 10104676? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. The name of account "Building Trades Group of Unions 14 Drug and Alcohol/Safety Program"; do you see that? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Do you see your name and signature as one of the three 18 listed there? 19 A. Yes, I do. 20 21 Q. You signed that, did you? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. Then over the page, do you see the signature of Chief 25 Officer or Chairperson of an incorporated organisation? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. Is that signed by Mr Papa? 29 A. That's Tony Papa's signature, yes. 30 31 Q. Over the page, page 4, have you seen this document 32 before? 33 A. Yes. Yes, I have. I think I instructed my assistant, 34 my Secretary, Toni Mitchell, to write this document, yes. 35 36 Q. How did that come about? 37 A. From what I can recall, it was a discussion with 38 Michael Knott who believed that my being a signatory to 39 that account, which was transferring money to the 40 Construction Industry Drug and Alcohol Foundation, who I 41 was an employee of, represented a conflict of interest and 42 he said he thought I should be removed from that account. 43 44 Q. So you caused that to occur? 45 A. Yes, I did. I took his advice, yes. 46 47 Q. So you took steps to remove your name from the


1 signatories list? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. And as we can see, that's 4 November 2005? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. Just going over the page to page 5, we can see there 8 left is Mr Knott and Mr Tony Papa; is that right? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Then over the page again, page 6, "Persons authorised 12 to obtain information and endorse cheques", we see 13 Toni Mitchell and Nita Nunes. Toni Mitchell, you have 14 already indicated, was your assistant, and who was 15 Nita Nunes? 16 A. Toni Mitchell was my Personal Assistant and Nita Nunes 17 was a woman that, I think, originally worked two or three 18 days a week. She had a lot of experience working for the 19 CFMEU in their accounts department. She was very au fait 20 with MYOB and accounting procedures. In fact, I think she 21 had been trained in accounting procedures. 22 23 Q. She worked for the Committee as well for two days, is 24 that what you said, or three days? 25 A. Two or three. She worked two or three days within our 26 organisation, within both organisations, and I would not be 27 able to swear whether she was being paid by the Foundation 28 or by the Drug and Alcohol Program. 29 30 Q. When you said "the two organisations" there, they're 31 the two you were talking about? 32 A. The only two I ever talk about. 33 34 Q. Over the page, page 7, do you see the Building Trades 35 Group of Unions Drug and Alcohol Committee in the middle of 36 the page under "Section 8", as the full name of the 37 Association in relation to which the account documentation 38 has been prepared? 39 A. Yes, I do. 40 41 Q. Thank you. Put that to one side for the moment. 42 We're back on page 4 of your statement. You say halfway 43 down the page, after you returned from your trip to the 44 union-based rehab in Canada, you began to dream of 45 establishing a residential drug and alcohol treatment 46 facility for construction industry workers and members of 47 their families in Sydney. We're back now in the late


1 1990s; is that right? 2 A. Mid to late 1990s, yes, I think I came back from that 3 trip in about 1994-95. 95, yes. 4 5 Q. You say you soon had the Committee of Management of 6 the Foundation convinced that it was possible to achieve 7 the objective, and there was a fundraising campaign 8 embarked upon? 9 A. That's true, yes. 10 11 Q. And you say: 12 13 One method of fundraising was an agreement 14 with Coca-Cola and other drink and snack 15 vending machine operators for the 16 Foundation to receive commission from 17 vending machines placed on building and 18 construction sites. 19 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. You say that was originally a CFMEU run scheme, and 23 the funds raised were split equally between the Union and 24 the Children's Hospital. 25 A. So I believed at the time, yes. 26 27 Q. Then you say you believed the most they ever achieved 28 was for a handful of machines being placed on sites as 29 Union officials, you say, were too busy handling industrial 30 matters. You say Mr Ferguson handed the operation of the 31 scheme over to the Foundation. 32 A. Yes. That's what I've said, yes. 33 34 Q. You say you pushed your staff exceptionally hard to 35 make the initiative a success and you raised, during the 36 final year of construction of the Sydney Olympics, $320,000 37 from vending machines on construction sites for the 38 Foundation? 39 A. Yes, that's right. 40 41 Q. Foundation House was opened, you say, in June 2000? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. By the Honourable Bob Carr, who was then Premier of 45 New South Wales? 46 A. Yes, that's right. 47


1 Q. It's still operating today. It is a residential 2 outpatient treatment facility located in premises provided 3 by the New South Wales Health Department at Callan Park in 4 Rozelle. That's still your understanding? 5 A. I believe it to be the case, yes. 6 7 Q. You say it was funded by the BTG D and A Program 8 through the money received from CFMEU EBAs and grants from 9 the New South Wales Health Department. Is that your 10 understanding? 11 A. Yes, it is. Can you take me to what part of the 12 statement that we're -- 13 14 Q. Paragraph 11, I beg your pardon. 15 A. 11, okay, yes. Yes, that's correct. It was funded by 16 the BTG and a grant from the Health Department, yes. 17 18 Q. When you say "BTG", you meant what you said in your 19 statement, did you, BTG D and A Program? 20 A. Yes, BTG D and A Program, yes, always. 21 22 Q. By that, did you mean the account that we saw at 23 page 1 of the Bank Accounts volume? 24 A. Yes, that's true. To the best of my understanding, 25 that was only just a holding account for money to be moved 26 sideways to the Foundation. 27 28 Q. Just for the record, that's the account ending in 676? 29 A. Yes, I believe so. Yes. 30 31 Q. You mentioned the vending machines. Do you know of 32 any fundraising by the CFMEU in the nature of a golf day or 33 the like, either in the late 1990s or the 2000s? 34 A. Not from the CFMEU. Building Trades Group Drug and 35 Alcohol Program did a golf day. That's the one you'll be 36 talking about. 37 38 Q. Well, I'm just asking you. 39 A. Yes. Yes, Tommy Simpson organised all of that for us. 40 He was our employee. 41 42 Q. You go on in your statement, paragraph 12: 43 44 Up until September 2002 [you were] employed 45 by BTG D&A Program. 46 47 And in October 2002 you became an employee of CIDAF?


1 A. That's right, yes. 2 3 Q. Your wage slips or Group Certificates, or the like, 4 had "CIDAF" on them from that time, did they? 5 A. Yes, I believe so. 6 7 Q. You say your title was Executive Officer? 8 A. Yes, it was. 9 10 Q. You say practically the change in your employment had 11 little effect on your day-to-day activities? 12 A. Yes, that's right, and the pay slips did have 13 Construction Industry Drug and Alcohol Foundation on them. 14 15 Q. What are you looking at, sir? 16 A. I'm looking at a pay slip. 17 18 Q. And you have that handy, do you? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. Would you be kind enough to show me? 22 A. Yes. (Shown to Counsel Assisting). 23 24 Q. You've just handed me two documents that are headed 25 "Construction Ind. D and A Foundation Rehab.", it has an 26 address, "PO Box 1145, Rozelle, NSW, 2039", and the heading 27 is "Payroll Advice"? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. There's two different time periods there. One is 31 11 April 2005 to 12 April 2005? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. One is 1 June 2005 to 30 June 2005? 35 A. That's true, yes. 36 37 Q. Thank you. Would we be able to obtain copies of these 38 and return them to you? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. You say in paragraph 12, third line: 42 43 Practically the change in my employment had 44 little effect on my day-to-day activities. 45 The two organisations were closely linked 46 and part of my duties in my new position 47 was to continue to administer and oversee


1 the ongoing implementation of the BTG D&A 2 Program. 3 4 A. That's right, yes. 5 6 Q. You then set out point 2 of your job description and 7 contract of employment from CIDAF. Did you have that handy 8 to you when you were preparing your statement? 9 A. Yes, I did. I have it here now. 10 11 Q. Could I see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. Thank you. (Shown to counsel). You've just handed me 15 a document, the Construction Industry Drug and Alcohol 16 Foundation Job Description and Contract of Employment. It 17 appears to be a document of seven pages and there are two 18 different dates. One is signed by Mr Huntley as President 19 on 23 September 2002 and you've signed it on 11 October 20 2002? 21 A. That's right. 22 23 Q. Would we also, please, be able to get a copy of that 24 and return that to you? 25 A. Sure. 26 27 Q. Thank you. You've set out point 2 from that document, 28 I trust: 29 30 "Manage, develop and assure quality control 31 for the activities of the Building Trades 32 Group Drug and Alcohol Committee. This 33 will include the provision of on-site 34 education and awareness sessions, Safety 35 Committee Training, and training to 36 apprentices in TAFE Colleges." 37 38 A. That's right, yes. That was part of my role. I was 39 paid by one organisation but I was overseeing the running 40 of the other one. 41 42 Q. The dates I read out for that document are close in 43 time to the setting up of that account we saw at the front 44 of that Bank Accounts folder; do you recall that? That was 45 in December 2002. 46 A. If that's what you say, yes. I haven't got that 47 document in front of me anymore, but I have no reason to


1 doubt it. 2 3 Q. You say in paragraph 13: 4 5 In approximately late 2004, I learnt the 6 CFMEU had further amended the drug and 7 alcohol clause in its EBAs. It had done so 8 without any discussion or consultation with 9 me. 10 11 A. That's right, yes. 12 13 Q. You have set out a clause there in your statement: 14 15 Employees may elect on a company basis to 16 have $1.00 per week of their ACIRT 17 contribution paid to an organisation of 18 their choice eg. Construction Industry Drug 19 and Alcohol Foundation. 20 21 Within the EBA folder, could you please turn to page 411. 22 A. Yes, I'm there. 23 24 Q. In the middle of that written section under the 25 heading "Industry/Workers Welfare" -- 26 A. Yes, I do. 27 28 Q. -- do you see that form of clause there? 29 A. Yes, I do. I think it reflects what I have written in 30 my statement, doesn't it, exactly, word-for-word? 31 32 Q. Yes. How did you learn about it? 33 A. I think Tommy brought it in. Tommy Simpson brought a 34 copy of it in because he'd heard about it on building sites 35 because that was his job to go around building sites, 36 speaking to workers, and conducting education sessions and 37 showing our video. 38 39 Q. Just for completeness, at the front of the document 40 which I've taken you to at page 411, it has the date at 41 page 385 of that particular agreement, and that's between 42 22 March 2004 and 31 October 2005? 43 A. That's correct, yes. 44 45 Q. You say in paragraph 14 that when you found out about 46 this, you immediately called Mr Ferguson? 47 A. I did.


1 2 Q. And you say you told him you wanted to meet with him 3 to discuss the new clause in the EBA. Why did you want to 4 discuss it? 5 A. I thought there was a chance and - I thought there was 6 a chance that we could finish up with no money out of it. 7 We were no longer the nominated recipient of the funds, we 8 were an example of where the funds could go. Previously, 9 we had been the only organisation the funds could go to. 10 Now they could go to an organisation of their choice, for 11 example, us. I did hear that some officials were calling 12 on employees of different companies to make that 13 organisation the CFMEU. 14 15 Q. Right. You mean the organisation to which the money 16 should go? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. You heard that how? 20 A. From Tom - Tom Simpson. 21 22 Q. You then go on in your statement, paragraph 15, at the 23 top of page 6, that you met Mr Ferguson? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 26 Q. You say it was at the CFMEU headquarters in Lidcombe. 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. And you had a conversation you have set out. Could 30 you read that out, please? 31 A. 32 33 Me: What's going on with the new wording 34 in the CFMEU's EBAs? 35 36 Ferguson: We changed it. 37 38 Me: With no consultation with us? It says 39 that the money can go to any organisation 40 so we might not get anything at all. 41 42 Ferguson: No, we are increasing the $1 to 43 $2 so you will still get your $1. 44 45 Me: Well who gets the other $1? 46 47 Ferguson: We do.


1 2 Me: Why don't we get it all? 3 4 Ferguson: Because we negotiate the EBAs 5 and we decide who gets what. 6 7 Now, that's - to the best of my recollection, that's at the 8 heart of the conversation, but I couldn't swear to that as 9 being word-for-word, but it is the heart of the 10 conversation, yes. 11 12 Q. Did Mr Ferguson in the course of the conversation that 13 you can recall say anything about what the CFMEU was going 14 to do with their bit of the money, the half? 15 A. To the best of my recollection, I think that he 16 mentioned it was for safety purposes, I think. I couldn't 17 swear to that. No, I would not swear to that, but I knew 18 that's what they wanted the money for, you know, or that's 19 what they were saying they wanted the money for. 20 21 Q. Did Mr Ferguson tell you to remain quiet about it? 22 A. He most certainly did. 23 24 Q. Did he say why? 25 A. He did say why but I understood why. Previously I'd 26 been a Union official. Employers. The reason was because 27 employers have got different objectives to unions, and 28 unions sometimes go out and bounce employers and create 29 problems if they're not doing things properly. Employers 30 will not fund that to happen. They won't give money to 31 unions to go out and chase them, if they're not doing 32 everything right. A lot of employers do everything right 33 and there's no need for the union to chase them, but some 34 don't, and the union have to get after them. That's what 35 unions are for. 36 37 Q. Did Mr Ferguson say why he wanted you to keep quiet, 38 did you infer it, or both? 39 A. Well, look, I couldn't swear it, but I would think 40 that it was, "Come on mate, you understand why we need to 41 keep this quiet", you know, and I did understand why it 42 needed to be kept quiet. 43 44 Q. You say that at the end of the meeting, you and he 45 were standing at the door to his office, discussing the 46 clause and the split of the contributions and 47 Mr Fitzpatrick came along and joined in?


1 A. That's right, yes. 2 3 Q. What did he say, or words to the effect? 4 A. His contribution was words to the effect of "Fucking 5 give them 25 per cent or better still give them nothing. 6 They're our EBAs and we should decide where the money 7 goes." 8 9 Q. Did Mr Ferguson respond? 10 A. Yes, he did. 11 12 Q. What did he say? 13 A. His response, and I recall it very clearly: "No, we 14 can't do that. We need them to hide behind." Exact words. 15 16 Q. You say you discussed this with Michael Knott. Do you 17 recall when and where you did that? 18 A. No, I don't. I cannot recall exactly when that 19 happened. I seem to recall it happening. However, I was 20 here yesterday and Michael Knott said he can't recall it 21 happening, so I don't know whether one or both of us is 22 confused. I know that Michael was a close friend of mine 23 and a confidant. I discussed most things with him, so I - 24 perhaps I'm just assuming I would have discussed it with 25 him, I don't know, but I seem to recall discussing it with 26 him. 27 28 Q. You say following the meeting you wrote to Mr Ferguson 29 confirming the arrangement that you'd reached, and you 30 annex a copy of the letter to your statement. You've 31 annexed it to your statement but also, for the record, it 32 is at page 50 of the Chronological Bundle, so whichever way 33 you wish to look at that. Why did you reduce it to 34 writing? 35 A. Why did I put it in writing? 36 37 Q. Yes. 38 A. I wanted to make sure it was implemented. I wanted to 39 make sure that it reflected what we agreed on. 40 41 Q. Did you compose the letter or did someone do it on 42 your behalf and you just signed it? 43 A. I composed the letter, and I put the last paragraph in 44 so that the letter would make the agreement. 45 46 Q. Just to go through the letter, perhaps, it is dated 47 25 February 2005. It is on the letterhead of The Building


1 Trades Group of Unions Drug and Alcohol Committee and 2 signed by you; that's right? 3 A. Yes, that's correct, yes. 4 5 Q. 6 Dear Andrew, 7 8 Following our meeting today I wish to 9 confirm the following details regarding the 10 clause referring to companies "contributing 11 $2 per week per employee to an 12 administrator nominated by the Building 13 Trades Group (BTG) of Unions Drug and 14 Alcohol/Safety Program to assist with the 15 provision of drug & alcohol rehabilitation 16 & treatment services/safety programs for 17 the building and construction industry" in 18 Enterprise Bargaining Agreements and Deed 19 of Agreements. 20 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. It continues: 24 25 Further to that meeting it is agreed that 26 27 1. Where possible and practicable the 28 CFMEU will insert the abovementioned clause 29 into all Enterprise Bargaining Agreements 30 or Deed of Agreements which are negotiated 31 by the union. 32 33 2. The BTG Drug and Alcohol Program will 34 administer, manage and make all necessary 35 financial transfers to the CFMEU monthly, 36 providing the CFMEU with all necessary 37 documentation involved with this process. 38 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. And: 42 43 3. All income derived from the 44 abovementioned process will be divided as 45 follows 46 47 - Both the CFMEU and the BTG Drug and


1 Alcohol Program shall receive an equal 2 share (50%) of the first $40,000 raised per 3 month. 4 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. The second dot point: 8 9 - The CFMEU shall receive 60% and the BTG 10 Drug and Alcohol Program shall receive 11 40% of all income raised in excess of 12 $40,000 per month. 13 14 A. That's right. 15 16 Q. Those dot points don't appear in the EBAs, that's your 17 understanding, is it? 18 A. No, they don't appear in the EBA. That's just a 19 breakdown of what would happen with the $2 that does appear 20 in the EBA. 21 22 Q. You agree that so far as you're aware, there's no 23 mention of the CFMEU receiving any part of the money in 24 that clause? 25 A. The EBA clause? 26 27 Q. Yes. 28 A. No, never was. 29 30 Q. At number 4 of your letter: 31 32 4. Where an extraordinary agreement is 33 reached with a sub-trade/industry sector 34 (eg Bricklaying contractors) and the amount 35 contributed is in excess of $2 per employee 36 per week, it is agreed that any amount over 37 $2 per employee per week shall belong 38 exclusively to the CFMEU. However, it is 39 agreed that all agreements negotiated MUST 40 contain the standard $2 per employee per 41 week clause in addition to any clauses 42 referring to additional weekly 43 contributions to the CFMEU. 44 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. And then you say that last self-executing part of the


1 letter: 2 3 As discussed in our meeting, it is agreed 4 that if you have not responded to this 5 document within 14 days from the date of 6 writing, this agreement shall be in place 7 effective immediately and be adhered to for 8 the full duration of any agreements 9 negotiated by the CFMEU. 10 11 A. That's right. 12 13 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Did Mr Ferguson ever reply, 14 Mr Sharp? 15 A. No, he didn't reply, no. That's why I put the clause 16 in. 17 18 Q. Can I just ask you this, Mr Sharp, I think my 19 essential point is this: that conversation you have in 20 paragraph 15 becomes reflected in the letter in that 21 becomes $2 instead of $1. Do you follow me? 22 A. That's right, yes. 23 24 Q. Then there are various matters in the letter that 25 aren't actually recorded as being part of your 26 conversation. In effect, the result of your meeting with 27 Mr Ferguson was that you gained various advantages over the 28 position that existed before the meeting - right? 29 A. I gained various advantages? 30 31 Q. You gained an advantage in that you got your program 32 inserted back in as the recipient? 33 A. Yes. Yes. 34 35 Q. And you got, as it were, security for the $1, even 36 though the CFMEU were getting more money in other ways. 37 Can I take it that although you may not have set out every 38 part of the letter in paragraph 15, or just after it, those 39 points there in the letter were points that you had agreed 40 with Mr Ferguson? 41 A. Yes, they were, yes. Most definitely. 42 43 Q. Right. 44 A. The wording in paragraph 15 of my statement is a very 45 condensed and abbreviated part of just one part of the 46 conversation. I was out there for probably 30, 45 minutes. 47


1 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton? 2 3 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Where was the copy of the letter kept 4 that you sent? 5 A. It would have been in our filing cabinet. 6 7 Q. That's the BTG D and A Committee filing cabinet? 8 A. Yes, we had one filing cabinet for the Committee and 9 one filing cabinet for the Foundation. As well as that we 10 had archives up the other end of the building for documents 11 that had been there for many years but we still needed 12 access to. 13 14 Q. To the best of your recollection, did you make the 15 contents of that document known to other people, other than 16 Mr Ferguson? 17 A. Yes. Yes, I certainly did, I'm sorry. Even though I 18 was told not to discuss it, I had to discuss it with 19 Toni Mitchell, my PA, because she was responsible for 20 transferring money to the Drug & Alcohol Foundation and to 21 the CFMEU. I also had to - I felt I had to discuss it with 22 Tom Simpson, my Education Officer, who was running around 23 building sites everyday of his working life and I didn't 24 want him to get bushwhacked by someone, some employer 25 saying, "Listen, what's happening with our $2 a week?", and 26 have Tom say, "What do you mean? It's only $1 a week." So 27 I had to have him filled in on it. 28 29 I don't think I discussed it with anyone else from the 30 industry. I was told not to and I obeyed that instruction. 31 I did, however, discuss it with people in my personal life. 32 I discussed it with my wife at the time. I discussed it 33 with my sister. I discussed it with my AA sponsor. 34 I discussed it with a few people in regard to my emotional 35 response to what was happening and keeping on top of 36 things, yes, I did. 37 38 Q. What do you mean by your emotional response to what 39 was happening? 40 A. I wasn't happy about this. 41 42 Q. Why were you not happy about that? 43 A. This was an idea that I'd brought back from Canada and 44 had implemented to raise funds for a program that I put my 45 heart and soul into. It was my life, you know, and then 46 I've got someone hijacking half the deal. I wasn't happy 47 about that.


1 2 Q. You seem to be quite emotional even now about it, is 3 that fair to say? 4 A. Yes, that's true. 5 6 Q. Why did you agree to it? 7 A. I had no choice. I'd made -- 8 9 Q. Why did you have no choice? 10 A. Well, as we saw in the previous clause, he inserted a 11 clause that said the contributions can go to any 12 organisation that the workers choose and that would - that 13 could exclude us. Also, any time I met with Mr Ferguson - 14 Mr Ferguson was not my direct boss but he controlled me 15 completely because he controlled the Building Trades Group 16 of Unions who I worked for and at his direction it could 17 have been all over for me, but, more importantly, it could 18 have been over for the organisation that I was running, 19 because if he had have pursued that $1 a week or $2 a week 20 clause for any organisation of the workers' choice and if 21 he had have instructed his officials to go back and 22 renegotiate the drink machines on sites for the Union, we 23 had nothing. We had nothing. I had to look after the 24 interests of my organisation and so I agreed to it. 25 26 Q. Had Mr Ferguson, when you'd learnt about the clause 27 about employees donating to another organisation of their 28 choice, provided any reason for the introduction of that 29 wording? 30 A. No. 31 32 Q. Did you inquire of him why that wording had been 33 introduced, that you can recall? 34 A. No, not that I can recall. I think I understood what 35 was going on and I think he understood that I understood. 36 37 Q. And what was that? 38 A. I understood that it was a move to get money away from 39 us. 40 41 Q. Money away from you? 42 A. Well, money paid to an organisation of the employees' 43 choosing which may not be the Construction Industry Drug & 44 Alcohol Foundation. I mean, if it was going to come to us, 45 why not put "Construction Industry Drug & Alcohol 46 Foundation" in the agreement rather than "an organisation 47 of the employees choosing". It didn't even say "a charity


1 of the organisation", "of the employees' choosing", it said 2 "an organisation of the employees' choosing". You know, if 3 it had have been the Children's Hospital or the 4 Cancer Foundation, or whatever, I think that's different, 5 but if it's under the heading in the agreement of 6 "Industry/Employer Welfare" and yet, it mentions 7 "organisation", "organisation" can be a soccer club. 8 9 Q. Can be a what, sorry? 10 A. It could be a soccer club, it could be a football 11 club, anything. 12 13 Q. Could I take you in the EBA MFI-6 folder, which you 14 should still have in front of you, please, to page 440. Do 15 you see the last dot point on page 440? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. It says: 19 20 The parties agree that the Company will 21 contribute $2.00 per week per Employee to 22 an administrator nominated by the Building 23 Trades Group (BTG) of Unions Drug & 24 Alcohol/Safety Program, to assist with the 25 provision of drug & alcohol rehabilitation 26 and treatment services/safety programs for 27 the building & construction industry. This 28 will apply to all Employees of the Company 29 (except apprentices and trainees). 30 31 A. Yes, I see that. 32 33 Q. Is that a clause of the type you referred to in your 34 letter? 35 A. Yes, that was one of them, yes; yes, that was one of 36 them. 37 38 Q. Do you see the front of the document in which this 39 clause appears at page 420, that the date of this 40 particular agreement is between 2 March 2006 and 31 March 41 2008? 42 A. Yes, I do. 43 44 Q. Is it pursuant to a clause such as that that the 45 BTG D and A account commenced to get $2 per employee per 46 week arranged by Laytins Mayfair and was subsequently 47 distributed under that agreement pursuant to the letter


1 we've seen that you sent to Andrew Ferguson? 2 A. Yes, that's right, yes. 3 4 Q. At some stage, to your recollection - or can't you 5 recall - whether or not the part of the money going from 6 the BTG D and A account, which is going to the CFMEU, did 7 that go via some other method, or can't you recall? 8 A. I seem to recall part of it, or some of it, all of it, 9 I'm not sure, going through a Building Trades Group of 10 Unions account. I've seen, I can recall, something to do 11 with the Building Trades Group of Unions. It may even be 12 the other matter that we'll discuss later, I'm not sure, 13 but I couldn't swear to it, no, but there is every 14 possibility that some of it went through the Building 15 Trades Group account. 16 17 Q. Just to recap, if we could. 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. When we saw the earlier version of the clause, there 21 was money raised through the EBA which went to the 22 committee account ending in 676 and that was passed on to 23 the Foundation, or 100 per cent? 24 A. All to the Foundation, yes. 25 26 Q. And then we saw a clause where there was a choice as 27 to which organisation - we've just discussed that. 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. We've seen then a clause and we've seen that agreement 31 with Mr Ferguson whereby the money collected went up to $2? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. All of it went to, did it, the 676 BTG D and A 35 account? 36 A. It came to us, yes. 37 38 Q. And Laytins Mayfair assisted in getting that money 39 into the account? 40 A. Yes. Yes. 41 42 Q. They received a commission, did they? 43 A. Yes, 10 per cent plus their expenses for postage and 44 if they had to print up any leaflets or flyers, anything 45 like that. 46 47 Q. Once it was in that account, at least initially, it


1 went, half of it, to the CFMEU? 2 A. Yes, and the total never exceeded the - the reason I 3 agreed to that 60/40 clause is I was of the belief that the 4 amount would never go above $40,000 a month. 5 6 Q. Half of it went to the CFMEU, you've just agreed, and 7 the other half went to the Foundation, as before? 8 A. That's right, yes. 9 10 Q. And then at a certain time you think, possibly, but 11 you couldn't swear to it, that the component that you said 12 had gone to the CFMEU may have gone via the BTG itself? 13 A. It may have gone via the Building Trades Group, yes. 14 15 Q. But you can't recall precisely? 16 A. I can't - no, I couldn't swear to it, no. 17 18 Q. Can we then continue on in your statement to page 7. 19 You've got a heading "Thiess Hochtief Payment". Do you see 20 that? 21 A. Yes, I do. 22 23 Q. You say in early 2006 you received a phone call from 24 Mr Ferguson. Could you say to the Commission what you set 25 out in your statement, or anything else that you want to 26 say about this conversation? 27 A. The conversation when I met with him, after I went out 28 and met with him, or the phone call. 29 30 Q. You say you received a phone call and you say in your 31 statement he asked you to join him for a meeting at 32 Lidcombe at the CFMEU head office? 33 A. Yes, he asked me to come out for a meeting. He didn't 34 told me what it was about. He just said he wanted to see 35 me. 36 37 Q. When you arrived at Lidcombe you went straight to 38 Mr Ferguson's office? 39 A. Yes. I had no business there other than seeing him, 40 no. 41 42 Q. And you say another person was there. Who was that? 43 A. Steve Dixon. 44 45 Q. Who was he? 46 A. Steve Dixon was the CFMEU organiser on the Lane Cove 47 Tunnel Project and it appears the Epping to Chatswood Rail


1 Link, but I was aware - I found that out this morning about 2 the Epping to Chatswood Rail Link, but I was aware that he 3 was the organiser on the Lane Cove Tunnel for the CFMEU. 4 5 Q. A conversation occurred? 6 A. We had a conversation. 7 8 Q. What was that? 9 A. Okay. Ferguson said to me - and this is, as I said, 10 the condensed version and I couldn't swear to the wording 11 but this is the make-up of it: 12 13 Ferguson: Thiess want to make [a] 100k 14 donation. 15 16 Me: That's great, we could do with the 17 money. Tell them to put it into the CIDAF 18 gift fund and they can claim it as a tax 19 deduction. 20 21 Ferguson: What makes you think you are 22 getting it all? 23 24 Me: Well how else do we do it? 25 26 Ferguson said: 27 28 We want you to put it in your [bank] 29 account ... 30 31 Or: 32 We want you to put in your account and 33 transfer it to us in a couple of weeks. 34 35 Me: We can't do that. The Foundation 36 can't do that because it's a registered 37 charity and is under close scrutiny from 38 many areas. We have financial audits and 39 hold regular meetings. Everyone would see 40 it go into our account and then come out 41 again and they would start asking 42 questions. 43 44 Ferguson. Well what about the BTG D&A 45 accounts? 46 47 Me: That's possible.


1 2 Ferguson: We'll take 80% and you can have 3 20%. 4 5 Did you agree to that? 6 A. Yes, I did, I had to. 7 8 Q. Why did you have to? 9 A. The same reason I told you, that I agreed to the other 10 thing. I was in no position to make waves out there. 11 I didn't have the luxury of telling him what to do; he told 12 me what to do. He controlled me quite rigidly, actually, 13 when he needed to. 14 15 Q. I beg your pardon, sir? 16 A. He controlled me quite rigidly when he needed to. 17 18 Q. You say you shortly after spoke to Ms Mitchell: 19 that's Toni Mitchell, your assistant? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. And Tom Simpson, the BTG D and A Programs Education 23 Officer at the time? 24 A. That's right. 25 26 Q. And you said that you told them: 27 28 ... we needed to make sure that we provided 29 drug and alcohol training to Thiess 30 employees up to a value of at least 31 $20,000 ... 32 33 Why did you say that? 34 A. I said that because we had received $20,000 off this 35 company and it was a company that - I'll just take a moment 36 to explain. The Building Trades Group Drug and Alcohol 37 Program did a lot of fee-for-service work to organisations 38 outside the building and construction industry. For 39 example, we developed programs for a lot of Sydney 40 councils, probably about 10 or 12 councils all together; 41 Streets Ice Cream; I did a hell of a lot of work in New 42 Zealand for Frontera Dairy Corporation; all that 43 fee-for-service. Tom did a lot of work up on the 44 Cooloola Bypass for I think it was Barclays, or whoever the 45 constructor was, and when we made presentations on civil 46 sites, civil sites as separate from building and 47 construction sites, we had the right to charge them because


1 we weren't funded to present work to civil contractors, 2 only building and construction contractors. So these two 3 projects, the Epping to Chatswood Rail Link and the Lane 4 Cove Tunnel were civil projects, so we had the potential, 5 the authority, if you like, to charge them for work that we 6 presented. 7 8 Now, I wanted to keep our name above all kind of 9 criticism and I said to them - and I think we presented - 10 I can't recall how we were charging them. I think we had a 11 rate per hour and we had a rate per course participant in 12 two-hour education courses that Tom ran and it seems they 13 did a pretty good job of that because, as was presented 14 this morning here, there was $13,770 worth of work 15 presented on the Epping to Chatswood Rail Link, that's 16 without the Lane Cove Tunnel, so they would have at least 17 got to the 20 grand, no problem at all. 18 19 Q. You said that Mr Ferguson said it was a 100k donation. 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Yet, you say that you were going out of your way, it's 23 apparent - I'm putting that in a slightly different way - 24 to provide a service for $20,000 worth of that? 25 A. That's right. 26 27 Q. Why did you feel you needed to do that, if it was a 28 donation? 29 A. Well, it - as you've heard in the newspaper recently, 30 I don't think it would have passed the pub test. 31 32 Q. What do you mean by that? 33 A. I thought it could have been - it could have been 34 viewed as being not 100 per cent aboveboard. Normally 35 employers do not make $100,000 donations to unions that get 36 out there and put their blokes on strike and make safety 37 recommendations and sometimes make things go a lot slower 38 than they're supposed to do. 39 40 Q. What did you think it was for? 41 A. I had no idea what it was for. I was told it was a 42 donation and in my experience employers don't make 43 donations of that size. I mean, I can understand an 44 employer - we've had breakfasts and we've had charity 45 events and we've had employers come and pay a couple of 46 thousand dollars for a table, or whatever, I can imagine 47 doing that, but a donation of $100 ,000 is a lot of money


1 and I didn't know whether there was going to be any 2 controversy about it and as in my last line in my 3 conversation with Andrew Ferguson, he said, "We'll take 4 80 per cent, you can have 20 per cent", that equated to 5 $20,000 and I wanted to make sure that if I ever had to sit 6 in this chair and explain about that $20,000, I could say 7 that we did $20,000 worth of work for that money. 8 9 Q. Do you recall whether or not an invoice was prepared 10 for the $100,000 amount? 11 A. Yes, I do. 12 13 Q. Can I ask you to look, please, at page 82 of the 14 Chronological Bundle. Leaving aside the stamp and the 15 handwriting, have you seen that document before? 16 A. Yes, I have. I authorised the wording of it, yes. 17 Yes, I have. Yes, I have, I authorised the wording of that 18 document. 19 20 Q. Can you recall who prepared that document? 21 A. Toni Mitchell. 22 23 Q. Do you say that you authorised the wording of it? 24 A. Yes. That's not her wording, that's not her words, 25 "Provision of the Building Trades Group Model Drug and 26 Alcohol Education Awareness Training Courses and Safety 27 Consultancy Services for the Epping to Chatswood Rail Link 28 Project". She's the secretary, she doesn't write that kind 29 of stuff. 30 31 Q. Where did you get the wording from? It says: 32 33 Provision of the Building Trades Group 34 Model Drug and Alcohol Education and 35 Awareness Training Courses and Safety 36 Consultancy Services for the Epping to 37 Chatswood Rail Link Project. 38 39 A. Yes. Well, that's what I thought up to cover for what 40 we represent and probably to make a $100,000 invoice look a 41 little bit realistic. It's a lot of money for training. 42 43 Q. We notice there the tax invoice number is OT-301, in 44 the top right-hand corner? 45 A. That's correct. 46 47 Q. It is dated 13 March 2006?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. To your understanding, did Ms Mitchell send that off 4 to Thiess Hochtief? 5 A. Ms Mitchell, yes, she did. 6 7 Q. At some time later - that's 2006? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. You say on page 8 of your statement, under the heading 11 "ABCC Investigation", that in September 2007 Ms Mitchell 12 gave you a handwritten note of a telephone message? 13 A. Yes, that's right. 14 15 Q. Could you please look at page 127 of the bundle you've 16 got in front of you? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Is that the note you're referring to or a copy of it? 20 A. That's a copy of it; that's Toni Mitchell's writing. 21 22 Q. It is dated 19 September 2007. It says: 23 24 Australian Building Construction Commission 25 - Investigator 26 27 It says, "Bernard Kozalcaewicz" and it has two phone 28 numbers. "Complaint made to our body re Inv. No", 29 apparently short for "Invoice Number", "OT-301"? 30 A. That's right. 31 32 Q. And that's the one we've just looked at? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. When you received that message did you do something? 36 A. Yes, I did, yes. 37 38 Q. What did you do? 39 A. I called Andrew Ferguson and told him I needed to meet 40 with him. 41 42 Q. Did you have a conversation? 43 A. Yes, I did. 44 45 Q. Can you tell the Commission what was said, or words to 46 the effect? 47 A. Words to the effect, in the real condensed version, we


1 talked for a lot longer than 60 seconds: 2 3 Me: An investigator from the ABCC is 4 trying to get hold of me regarding the 5 $100K received from Thiess. 6 7 Ferguson: Don't speak to him. Let him 8 keep calling you but don't return his 9 calls. If he does get onto you just 10 stonewall him and let me know immediately 11 if you have spoken to him. 12 13 Q. And did you in fact return Mr Kozalcaewicz's call? 14 A. Not at all. 15 16 Q. You then set out that, not long after that 17 conversation, in or around October 2007, you believe 18 Mr Ferguson transferred the amount that Mrs Mitchell had 19 previously transferred to the CFMEU and you say there 20 $80,000 less GST. That was transferred back to the 21 BTG D and A Program Account? 22 A. That's right, yes, that happened, yes. 23 24 Q. You say you believe that Mrs Mitchell opened a cash 25 deposit account with the Commonwealth Bank and transferred 26 the abovementioned funds into that account so that it could 27 earn more interest. You say you imagine she did so on your 28 instructions but you've no precise recollection of this and 29 you were not a signatory to that account. 30 A. That's right. 31 32 Q. Going back to paragraph 24, you say the amount 33 previously transferred to the CFMEU was $80,000 less GST. 34 Could I show you page 93 of the volume you have in front of 35 you. 36 A. Yes, I have that. 37 38 Q. Do you see there a document "Quickline Transfer", 39 "Safety Program"? 40 A. Yes, I do. 41 42 Q. Have you ever seen that before? 43 A. Yes, I have. 44 45 Q. Do you understand what that represents? 46 A. Yes, I believe it represents - $90,909.09 represents 47 the $100,000 from Thiess Hochtief, less GST, which


1 Toni Mitchell would have paid straight away. The account - 2 "Safety Program" is the account that it's coming out of and 3 paid to "The Building Trades Group of Unions". So the 4 whole of the money from Thiess Hochtief's donation, 5 whatever you want to call it, was paid to us, to the 6 Safety Program, and on 20 April 2006 was transferred from 7 the Safety Program to The Building Trades Group of Unions 8 account; that's what that invoice says. 9 10 Q. Going back, if we could, first of all, to page 90 - 11 I beg your pardon, another folder of 90, the bank account 12 folder, MFI-3. 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Do you see there that's the first page of an account 16 in the name "BTG Drug and Alcohol Safety Program" and do 17 you see the large letters "Cheque Account Bearing Interest" 18 is the heading and on the right-hand side of that account 19 number we see ending in 676. Do you see there? 20 A. Yes, I do, yes. 21 22 Q. And so that's the account we've seen before of 23 the Committee? 24 A. The Program Account, yes. 25 26 Q. Yes, the BTG D and A Committee? 27 A. Yes, the Program Account, yes. 28 29 Q. If we go over the page, while we're there we can note 30 some payments of the way through, if we could. On 12 April 31 do you see "CONTINGENT LAYTINS MAYFAIR" of $5,899.20? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. Does that appear to be the commission earned by 35 Laytins Mayfair for their collection of the EBA 36 contribution? Is it a debit. 37 A. The debit for "5,899.20? 38 39 Q. Yes. 40 A. Is that it? Yes. It seems to be a lot of money but 41 if that's their commission, that would have meant that the 42 commission for the amount raised for that month was 43 $58,000. I don't see how that could be the case, actually, 44 but -- 45 46 Q. Do you see that the two figures below also appear to 47 be coming out on that same day, $23,334.96 - do you see


1 that? 2 A. Yes. Yes. 3 4 Q. We've got $26,648.29, it says there, to "BTG OF 5 UNIONS". Do that appear to accord with the split that 6 you've referred to -- 7 A. That appears to be, yes, so I was wrong when I said 8 earlier that I didn't think it would ever go to over 9 $40,000. It obviously had that month, yes, and it 10 reflects, because we've got $23,334 and the Union's got 11 $26,648. 12 13 Q. Then further down, on 13 April, do you see an amount 14 in the "Credit" column of $100,000 against the name 15 "THIESS HOCHTIEF"? 16 A. I do. 17 18 Q. That would appear to be the $100,000 coming in -- 19 A. It is. 20 21 Q. -- to the BTG D and A Safety Program Account which 22 belongs to the BTG D and A Committee, yes? 23 A. 13 April, that's right, yes. 24 25 Q. Then do you see on 20 April an amount going out? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. And that's $90,909.09? 29 A. Yes, I do. 30 31 Q. Then can we go to volume 2 of MFI-3 and go to 32 page 492. 33 A. That is MFI-3, page 492? 34 35 Q. I'm sorry, of volume 2. I beg your pardon, we have to 36 provide that to you. 37 A. Thank you. 492, did you say? 38 39 Q. Page 492. 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. Do you see there on 20 April - that's the same day we 43 saw $90,909.09 coming out of the BTG D and A Account. We 44 see, apparently, at least the same amount of money coming 45 into the BTG Account on page 492, on the same day? 46 A. That's the Building Trades Group Account, yes. Okay, 47 yes, I do, I see that, $90,909.09. I do, I see that, yes.


1 2 Q. While we're on that same page, can we just go off 3 topic on the Thiess payment for a moment and go back to the 4 EBA amount. 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. Do you see on page 492 a credit of $15,957.27? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 10 Q. That matches on page 94 of volume 1, it would appear, 11 the money coming out of the committee account of that same 12 amount on 9 May? 13 A. On what page was that? In volume -- 14 15 Q. Page 94 of volume 1. It is just the other side of 16 that particular one, in a similar vein, it would appear, to 17 the one we saw before? 18 A. Page 94? 19 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. What date was it, please? 22 23 Q. It's on the screen, if that assist you. 24 A. Thank you. 25 26 27 Q. Go to the left-hand side of the screen as we're 28 looking at it. 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. Do you see the last debit figure $15,957.27? 32 A. Yes, I do see that. 33 34 Q. That would appear to match the credit in the 35 BTG Account at page 492? 36 A. It does. 37 38 Q. That would appear to be part of a similar group of 39 transactions with the Laytins Mayfair back on 94, the CIDAF 40 and the BTG; they appear to be the same sort of split-up? 41 A. Yes, they're the same, yes. 42 43 Q. Back to the Thiess Hochtief amounts. We have seen the 44 credit to the BTG Account at 492 of $90,909.09. Could we 45 now turn in volume 2 of the bank accounts volume to 46 page 495, just three pages over? 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. Do you see there a number of amounts? Relevantly 3 speaking, do you see against cheque number 55, $72,727.27? 4 A. Yes, I do. 5 6 Q. Do you see further down, cheque 54, $18,181.82? 7 A. That's right. That's out of the Building Trades Group 8 Account. Okay, yes, yes, I see that. 9 10 Q. Could we go back to volume 1. I beg your pardon. 11 A. You'd better help me. 12 13 Q. Back to the Chronological Bundle, if we could. 14 A. Thank you. 15 16 Q. Do you see at 112 of the Chronological Bundle a 17 deposit there into CIDAF on 4 August? It is of $19,961.82. 18 A. Yes, I do see that. 19 20 Q. If we go over to 113A, two pages further over, do you 21 see there what would appear to be an extract of a MYOB 22 account? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. And the bottom right-hand of that table there, the 26 last two figures, do you see $18,181.82 income? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. And then there's another amount of income, $1,780 30 income? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. And then together they match the amount of $19,961.82? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. It would appear that that amount that has come out of 37 the BTG Account has gone into the CIDAF account? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. And then in relation to that other amount that came 41 out of the larger sum, the $72,727.27 - can I ask you to 42 turn to page 110 of the Chronological Bundle? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Do you see there a document under the letterhead of 46 "Construction Forestry Mining & Energy Union Construction & 47 General Division New South Wales Branch.


1 "Reimbursements Receipt", it's called, and it's for 2 $72,727.27, "Miscellaneous. BTG SAFETY CAMPAIGN"? 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 5 Q. It is dated 28 July 2006? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Do you see it is a duplicate receipt, down the bottom 9 of the page? It has been issued on 30 June of this year. 10 It is a duplicate receipt. 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. It appears that the pro forma, as at 2015, of the name 14 "Brian Parker" has printed out, but there's no suggestion, 15 just to be clear, that Brian Parker was on the receipt back 16 in 2006. It has just come up as the print-out as at 2015. 17 18 THE COMMISSIONER: In the middle of the page where it 19 says, "BRIAN PARKER. Per: SS", we should forget that? 20 21 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 22 23 THE WITNESS: Right. 24 25 THE COMMISSIONER: What this does tell us is this, is it, 26 that $72,727.27, what, came out of the Building Trades 27 Group account -- 28 29 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 30 31 THE COMMISSIONER: --- into the CFMEU account? 32 33 MS McNAUGHTON: Into the CFMEU account, yes. 34 35 Q. That relates to paragraph 24 of your statement where 36 you said that Mrs Mitchell had previously transferred to 37 the CFMEU $80,000 less GST? 38 A. That's right, yes. 39 40 Q. And then you go on to say that she transferred - after 41 the conversation you've had with Mr Ferguson in 2007, 42 sorry, the amount was transferred back to the BTG D and A 43 Program Account? 44 A. Yes, that's right. 45 46 Q. So that's 2007. Do you know whether or not that was a 47 cheque, or you don't know how it was --


1 A. No, I have no recollection of that. 2 3 Q. -- how it was provided back into the account? 4 A. No, I have no recollection of that. I seem to recall 5 it happening; I seem to recall being spoken to about it. 6 7 Q. You then go on to say at the bottom of page 8: 8 9 Return of the money to the CFMEU. 10 11 You understand that in around October 2009 the money was 12 returned to the CFMEU account. So it had gone - we've seen 13 it go into the CFMEU. You say it went back to the BTG 14 D and A Account in 2007? 15 A. Yes, that's right. 16 17 Q. And then it went back to the CFMEU back in 2009? 18 A. That's right, yes. 19 20 Q. To your understanding? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Do you know why all that occurred? 24 A. I know how it occurred. We would have been instructed 25 or someone else would have organised it. Why? The money 26 was transferred from the Union back to the Drug and Alcohol 27 Program and two years later it was transferred from the 28 Drug and Alcohol Program back to the Union. I couldn't say 29 why, no. I didn't make the decision of that being done or 30 why it was done. You'd have to ask whoever made the 31 decision to do it, who I imagine was Mr Ferguson. 32 33 Q. You say in early September 2010 you went on sick leave 34 arising from a back injury sustained while you were on 35 holidays and in or around June 2011 you accepted a 36 redundancy package? 37 A. I did. 38 39 Q. Did you have a subsequent conversation, after some 40 time, with Mr Tulloch about getting a job? 41 A. Yes, I did. 42 43 Q. What was the outcome to your understanding of that 44 conversation? Perhaps I should withdraw that and ask you 45 what were the terms of that conversation with Mr Tulloch, 46 to the best of your recollection? 47 A. The terms of that conversation were the Drug and


1 Alcohol Program Apprentice Education position, Apprentice 2 Education Officer's position was vacant. I was coming out 3 of a pretty horrific time in my life and I wasn't working, 4 I hadn't yet made the decision to retire, and I thought 5 I wanted to continue work and I spoke to Mal about that job 6 and he - we had continued negotiations around that and he 7 gave me a commitment that providing that we received the 8 funding for the new year for that position, that the job 9 was mine, even to the extent that we discussed where 10 I would be housed and he said that he wanted me to be 11 housed out at Lidcombe rather than at Rozelle because given 12 what I had just been through and was going through, he 13 thought I needed to be supervised by himself and 14 Michael Knott, and my understanding was that if the money 15 came through for that job, the job was mine; yes, he made 16 that commitment to me. 17 18 Q. And Mr Tulloch subsequently was no longer the 19 Secretary of the NSW Branch General Division? 20 A. Yes, he got deposed in a coup, that's right, yes. 21 22 Q. What happened to your understanding of that 23 undertaking? Did you have any further conversation with 24 anyone about it? 25 A. Yes, I had a conversation with Brian Parker. My 26 understanding of that undertaking was if the Union, if the 27 Secretary of the Union gives a commitment he doesn't give 28 it on behalf of himself as a person, a personal commitment, 29 he gives it on behalf of the Union. I mean, every 30 enterprise bargain agreement that's signed by the Secretary 31 of the Union, or anyone else in the Union, that agreement 32 doesn't have to be renegotiated because the head of the 33 Union changes and I just considered that was still in 34 place. I rang up Brian Parker and I asked him about it and 35 he said, "Oh, things have changed. You haven't got the job 36 any more." And I got angry, I got quite upset, it was a 37 difficult time for me, and I used the - I used the tactics 38 that the Union had taught me. I tried to bounce him, 39 I tried to stand over him. 40 41 Q. What did you say? 42 A. What I said was - I said, "Well, there's a great deal 43 of damaging material about the CFMEU and Andrew Ferguson in 44 regard to a $100,000 donation for Thiess that I have all 45 the information on and if I don't get that job don't be 46 surprised if that information becomes public knowledge." 47


1 Q. What did he say, if you can recall, if anything? 2 A. He didn't say much at all. He said he'd speak to 3 Ferguson and get back to me. 4 5 Q. Did you speak to Ferguson? 6 A. I did not, no. 7 8 Q. So what happened? 9 A. What happened? He got Michael Knott to ring me. Yes, 10 he got Michael Knott to call me. Basically, Michael just 11 said to me, "What are you doing, mate?" You know. By that 12 time I had cooled down and, you know, I think I just 13 explained to Michael, "Look, these people have just pushed 14 me far enough. You know, they've stood over me for the 15 whole 19 years that I worked there. They made me a stooge 16 to their wishes and desires. They took money that I 17 believed didn't belong to them and now they're breaking 18 promises to me and I just snapped." I told Michael, I 19 said, "I'm not going on with it. I'm not going to release 20 any information at this point." And I never had any more 21 talks about that or about the position. I just - in fact, 22 I accepted the fact that - I had a look at how much super I 23 had and I retired. I accepted the fact that I wasn't going 24 to work any more. 25 26 Q. Just one final matter. Were you present today during 27 the evidence of Mr Huntley? 28 A. Yes, I was. 29 30 Q. Do you recall that he said - he was referring to 31 paragraph 12 of his statement - that he had a conversation 32 with you or conversations on several occasions in late 2010 33 and 2011? 34 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. 35 36 Q. And he said words to the effect that you informed him 37 that, "He believed that the proportion" - that is you - "of 38 EBA contributions being provided to the BTG D and A by 39 CIDAF was too high." Did you ever say words to that 40 effect? 41 A. I would have said words to that effect but not what 42 he's got written here, "Contributions provided to the 43 BTG D and A by the Foundation was too high." It was 44 actually contributions to the CFMEU by the BTG Drug and 45 Alcohol Program, which was the money the CIDAF should have 46 had, that was too high. Mr Huntley had it all wrong this 47 morning. He didn't understand the workings of the program.


1 Those guys were very, very part-time board members. They 2 would have attended meetings for an hour and a half four 3 times a year, so their involvement in the Drug and Alcohol 4 Foundation's business would have been six to eight hours 5 per annum. You couldn't expect him to understand 6 everything, but he had it all wrong. However, I did 7 complain to him that the amount of money the CFMEU was 8 taking was too high, yes. 9 10 Q. He further said that you said the funds could be 11 better used by Foundation House? 12 A. Most certainly. 13 14 Q. He further said that you said that BTG D and A should 15 be wholly funded by the CFMEU and not by contributions paid 16 by CIDAF? 17 A. He's got that wrong. I would have said that all the 18 money from the drug and alcohol clauses in the EBA should 19 be going to CIDAF. 20 21 Q. Further, he says that you said in previous years the 22 then Secretary of the CFMEU NSW, Andrew Ferguson, had put 23 you under intense pressure to maintain or increase CIDAF's 24 funding of the BTG D and A? 25 A. Well, it was the BTG D and A's funding of the CFMEU 26 through the enterprise agreements, yes. I complained about 27 that, yes, and I was put under intense pressure to continue 28 with those agreements and to keep it quiet. 29 30 Q. And further, he said that you said that if CIDAF did 31 not do what the Union wanted, Ferguson had told you that 32 the Union would or might withdraw its support for CIDAF in 33 whole or part? 34 A. That's right. As I explained to you earlier, I can't 35 recall exactly when or the words of the conversations, but 36 I was certainly let know that if the enterprise agreements 37 were changed or the drink machine operation was altered, we 38 could be left with no money whatsoever. 39 40 Q. And finally - when I said the last bit was final - in 41 relation to Tom Simpson, are you aware of his whereabouts 42 now? 43 A. Not exactly but somewhere in the Philippines. 44 45 Q. He's out of Australia? 46 A. Yes. Yes. 47


1 Q. Do you still keep in contact with him? 2 A. Oh, I haven't for several months. I used to do that 3 silly Facebook thing but I stopped doing it, so I haven't 4 had any contact with him. That's the last contact that 5 I had. 6 7 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you, they're my questions. 8 9 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Yes, Mr Agius? 10 11 MR AGIUS: Yes. 12 13 <EXAMINATION BY MR AGIUS: 14 15 MR AGIUS: Q. Mr Sharp, you were shown page 82 of the 16 Chronological Bundle which is the invoice to Thiess. 17 I wonder if that could be brought up again. You've told us 18 that you were the person who put together the description 19 that we see in the invoice, "Provision of the Building 20 Trades Group Model Drug and Alcohol Education and Awareness 21 Training Courses and Safety Consultancy Services ..." 22 That's because, isn't it, you were aware that that's what 23 the money was going to be used for? 24 A. No, it wasn't that I was - no, I wasn't aware that the 25 money was going to be used for that. There was no way that 26 we were going to provide $100,000 worth of training on that 27 job. 28 29 Q. When you say "we", who is "we"? 30 A. My organisation, the Building Trades Group Drug and 31 Alcohol Program. 32 33 Q. The Union? 34 A. Not the Union, I never worked for the Union. 35 36 Q. But you weren't getting $100,000 for the Building 37 Trades Group of Unions Drug and Alcohol Committee, were 38 you? You were only receiving $20,000? 39 A. We were to finish up with $20,000, that's correct. 40 41 Q. When you learnt that Thiess was going to make a 42 donation of $100,000, you were very happy with that, 43 weren't you? 44 A. Most certainly. 45 46 Q. I mean your response, as you frankly admit on page 7 47 of your statement, was, "That's great, we could do with the

.11/08/2015 BTG D&A 265 T J SHARP (Mr Agius) Transcript produced by DTI

1 money"? 2 A. Yes, it was. 3 4 Q. You didn't see anything wrong in accepting the 5 $100,000 from Thiess? 6 A. Of course not. I run a registered charity; it was my 7 job to raise money. 8 9 Q. You didn't see anything wrong with the Union accepting 10 $100,000 from Thiess? 11 A. Yes, I did. Well, I didn't think it was right for the 12 Union to accept it. No, there's a lot of difference in a 13 registered charity getting a donation from a builder, but a 14 Union getting a donation from a builder? 15 16 Q. Did you have any idea what Thiess had said that money 17 was to be used for? 18 A. No, I don't. 19 20 Q. But did you at the time? 21 A. No. 22 23 Q. Were you aware that Thiess had had two very serious 24 incidents on sites that it controlled with others, prior to 25 making that donation of $100,000? 26 A. No, I was not. 27 28 Q. Were you aware that there was a death of a worker on a 29 site, its joint venture, that is, a joint venture of which 30 Thiess was a party operated as part of the Epping Rail Link 31 on 4 to 5 July 2005? 32 A. No, I was not aware of that death until this morning. 33 34 Q. Leaving aside the death, were you aware that there had 35 been an incident on that site? 36 A. No, I was not. 37 38 Q. You must have been aware of this - I think the whole 39 of Australia was aware of this - that on 2 November 2005 40 part of the Lane Cove ventilation tunnel collapsed? 41 A. I think I recall something about that in the news, 42 yes. 43 44 Q. It was a very serious matter, wasn't it? 45 A. It was a "very" what? 46 47 Q. A very serious matter?


1 A. I imagine it would have been. I had nothing to do 2 with that job and nothing to do with industrial relations 3 or safety on that job. 4 5 Q. Didn't it occur to you at any time that Thiess may 6 have been making this donation of $100,000 as an act of 7 goodwill because it wanted the assistance of the Union in 8 relation to welfare and health and safety matters on its 9 sites? 10 A. No, it didn't occur to me at all, no. If that had 11 have been the case, why did they not make the donation and 12 cheque out to the CFMEU? Why did it go to my organisation 13 for drug and alcohol services? 14 15 Q. Perhaps they were told to make the cheque out to 16 whoever it was that would first receive the money? 17 A. Why did that have to be us? I'm asking you a question 18 now. 19 20 Q. Yes. Unfortunately, you're not able to do that. 21 A. Okay. All right. Can you repeat your question, 22 please? 23 24 Q. Yes. At the time that you first learnt of this 25 $100,000 donation, you were happy to receive the money? 26 A. That's absolutely correct. Now -- 27 28 Q. And you never made any -- 29 A. Before you go on, please -- 30 31 Q. You never made any -- 32 A. Do you have my job description, Ms McNaughton? 33 34 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Agius, I think he wants to add 35 something to his answer. 36 37 MR AGIUS: I'm sorry? 38 39 MS McNAUGHTON: I think, Mr Sharp has just asked for his 40 job description. We had copies made in the intervening 41 period. We can provide that to him and provide copies to 42 my friends. 43 44 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. 45 46 THE COMMISSIONER: Just pause a moment, Mr Sharp. Could 47 I have those documents, one of them? Mr Sharp's pay slips?


1 Could I have Mr Sharp's pay slips. 2 3 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. We've had copies of those made as 4 well. We will make those available to everyone as well. 5 6 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Sharp's payroll advices will be 7 Drug and Alcohol Case Study MFI-7. His job description and 8 contract of employment will be Drug and Alcohol Case Study 9 MFI-8. 10 11 DRUG AND ALCOHOL CASE STUDY MFI-7 - MR SHARP'S PAYROLL 12 ADVICES 13 14 DRUG AND ALCOHOL CASE STUDY MFI-8 - MR SHARP'S JOB 15 DESCRIPTION AND CONTRACT OF EMPLOYMENT 16 17 MR AGIUS: Q. You agreed that the money could be 18 deposited into a BTG D and A Account, didn't you? 19 A. I don't know whether the term would be "agreed" or I 20 was instructed to have the money deposited into a BTG D and 21 A Program Account, and the reason that I got my job 22 description back is because I wanted to draw your attention 23 to point 4 which says: 24 25 In consultation with the Committee of 26 Management, identify area's fundraising 27 potential and develop and manage the 28 Foundation's fundraising activities. 29 30 It was my job to solicit and receive donations from 31 organisations to the Construction Industry Drug and Alcohol 32 Foundation. That was my job. 33 34 Q. The point I'm trying to reach is this, Mr Sharp, you 35 had no concerns about the legitimacy of that payment at the 36 time you first learnt about it, did you? 37 A. Not if it was a donation to the Construction Industry 38 Drug and Alcohol Foundation, no, I did not. 39 40 Q. But you didn't inquire as to whether there were any 41 conditions placed upon the donation by Thiess, did you? 42 A. Well, I think the evidence that I've given today might 43 have said word for word, that when he told me there was a 44 $100,000 donation, I said, "That's great, we could use the 45 money." 46 47 Q. Yes. You didn't inquire as to the basis upon which


1 Thiess had made the donation? 2 A. No, because I assumed - because he had me out there 3 telling me that a donation of $100,000 had been received, 4 it was - I assumed it was to the Construction Industry Drug 5 and Alcohol Foundation. That was the organisation that 6 I worked for. 7 8 Q. And you maintained that assumption and you believed 9 that your assumption was correct? 10 A. Only until the next sentence that he spoke. 11 12 Q. The next sentence was, "What makes you think you're 13 getting it all?" 14 A. That's correct. 15 16 Q. But you still didn't ask any questions about whether 17 or not there were any conditions placed on the grant of the 18 money by Thiess, did you? 19 A. No, I did not. 20 21 Q. You were happy to get as much of that money as you 22 could by any -- 23 A. That was my job, sir; that was my job. 24 25 Q. All right. And you were happy to lend the BTG D and A 26 Account to be used for the receipt of that money? 27 A. No, you've got that wrong. I was not happy about that 28 at all. 29 30 Q. Why didn't you object to it? 31 A. I was not in a position to object to instructions from 32 Andrew Ferguson. 33 34 Q. There's no instruction in the conversation you've set 35 out on page 7 of your statement? 36 A. I think in my evidence I said this is a very, very 37 reduced version of the conversation and I couldn't testify 38 that it was word for word. 39 40 Q. You wouldn't have left out the most important part of 41 the conversation, would you? 42 A. What was the most important part? I don't know what 43 the most important part of the conversation was. I can't 44 ask you a question. 45 46 Q. If you had been instructed wouldn't that be one of the 47 things that you would ensure was recorded in your


1 statement? 2 A. No. 3 4 Q. Today you regard the instruction as important? 5 A. Most certainly. I regarded it as important that day 6 too. 7 8 Q. Why isn't it in your statement? 9 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Agius, that actually assumes 11 something which might be controversial. Your question, 12 I think, proceeds on the understanding that there's no 13 instruction in that conversation. I see some instructions 14 in that conversation, or at least it might be possible to 15 see some instructions in that conversation. 16 17 THE WITNESS: They were implied instructions, most 18 certainly. 19 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Just one moment, Mr Sharp. 21 22 MR AGIUS: Q. Is this another assumption on your part? 23 A. No, no, it's not an assumption on my part. I was told 24 that I was getting $20,000 and they were getting $80,000; 25 that's not an assumption. 26 27 Q. Yes, but you weren't told that you had no choice in 28 this? 29 A. No, I knew I had no choice in this. 30 31 Q. You assumed you had no choice in it? 32 A. I understood I had no choice. 33 34 Q. Why didn't you ask Mr Ferguson why you weren't getting 35 the whole of the money? 36 A. I didn't need to. I understood what was going on. 37 I understood that my organisation was being used to launder 38 this donation. 39 40 Q. Where do we see that in your statement? 41 A. We don't. It's something that I understood. 42 I haven't written it in my statement. 43 44 Q. This is just bile that you have decided to share with 45 us today, isn't it? 46 A. Okay, if that's what you want to believe, yes, you 47 can. You can change a lot of things but you can't change


1 the truth. 2 3 Q. How could this be a laundering? Are you suggesting 4 that the $100,000 donation wouldn't appear in Thiess's 5 books? 6 A. No. 7 8 Q. Are you suggesting that the $100,000 would not be 9 traceable? 10 A. No, I'm not. 11 12 Q. Why do you use the word "launder"? 13 A. Well, why does it have to go through my account then 14 into the CFMEU's account and then, when the investigator 15 started sniffing around, be put back into my account and 16 two years later transferred back to their account? Why did 17 all that have to happen if the money hadn't been laundered. 18 19 Q. From those facts you've drawn an assumption that there 20 was something improper about this donation? 21 A. Yes, I do assume there was something improper about 22 the donation, otherwise it would have been made - the 23 cheque made out to the CFMEU. It wouldn't have been made 24 out to Drug and Alcohol Program. 25 26 Q. But at the time you were told about the money, you 27 didn't think there was anything improper about it, did you? 28 A. I didn't think there was anything improper about it? 29 30 Q. Yes. 31 A. Of course I thought there was something improper about 32 it. I'm a Union official, I understand the implications of 33 employer - employers or employer organisations making huge 34 donations to unions. I've been a Union official, I've 35 worked as an organiser. 36 37 Q. You dismiss out of hand, do you, the suggestion that 38 Thiess might have been genuinely interested in getting the 39 Union's cooperation to improve health, safety and welfare 40 on its sites? 41 A. No, I don't dismiss that out of hand at all. What 42 I question is why they did not make that cheque out to the 43 CFMEU and write on it "For Safety Purposes". 44 45 Q. But you've never asked anybody in the Union that 46 question? 47 A. No way.


1 2 Q. And you've never asked Thiess that question? 3 A. No way. I had no dealings with Thiess. 4 5 MR AGIUS: Thank you, Commissioner. 6 7 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Agius. Mr Condon? 8 9 MR CONDON: I will be some time. 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: How long? 12 13 MR CONDON: I would have thought 60 minutes. 14 15 THE COMMISSIONER: 60? 16 17 MR CONDON: 60. I can make a start now, if it assists 18 the Commission. 19 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Mr Sharp, I am conscious of the 21 fact that you've been here all day and you've been in the 22 box since lunchtime. Do you want to continue giving 23 evidence now in the hope that it may finish this evening, 24 or do you want me to adjourn the hearing now so that you 25 can come back tomorrow morning at 10? 26 A. I'd rather we adjourned it now and come back tomorrow. 27 28 Q. You would prefer that? 29 A. Yes, I would. 30 31 THE COMMISSIONER: I think that might be the best course 32 then, do you think, Ms McNaughton? 33 34 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, indeed, I think so. 35 36 THE COMMISSIONER: This hearing will resume at 10 tomorrow 37 morning. 38 39 AT 4.13PM THE COMMISSION WAS ADJOURNED TO WEDNESDAY, 40 12 AUGUST 2015 AT 10AM 41 42 43 44 45 46 47


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